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00:00:30,027\n孟凱文委員好好主席長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府地方政府是一體的\n\n3\n00:00:30,968 --> 00:00:57,457\n地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法\n\n4\n00:01:00,259 --> 00:01:14,935\n2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億\n\n5\n00:01:16,107 --> 00:01:30,227\n八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实那当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下\n\n6\n00:01:31,383 --> 00:01:48,260\n之前有传出说财政部有邀22个县市来政府讨论财化法院版的一个部分开会的一个状况各县市的反应如何我们过去就针对财化法有开过四次会昨天又开了一次会\n\n7\n00:01:48,740 --> 00:02:07,002\n沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障\n\n8\n00:02:08,183 --> 00:02:32,192\n那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那一部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題\n\n9\n00:02:33,112 --> 00:02:46,988\n因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長\n\n10\n00:02:48,229 --> 00:03:10,921\n還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走\n\n11\n00:03:11,721 --> 00:03:22,368\n因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那一部分那一部分那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題\n\n12\n00:03:42,101 --> 00:04:09,324\n因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右\n\n13\n00:04:10,044 --> 00:04:31,092\n因為我知道我們的召委還是要配合行政院的政策畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究柢我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究柢院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論\n\n14\n00:04:33,053 --> 00:04:52,236\n這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在草擬相關的這個修正草案\n\n15\n00:04:53,137 --> 00:05:16,205\n好我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法\n\n16\n00:05:16,305 --> 00:05:31,288\n你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近\n\n17\n00:05:31,408 --> 00:05:56,252\n因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多而且大家都該表達都表達了好所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金保險\n\n18\n00:06:00,453 --> 00:06:24,486\n那我想請教院版的這個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金\n\n19\n00:06:25,266 --> 00:06:41,509\n我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓他做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用\n\n20\n00:06:42,571 --> 00:07:02,513\n到什麼國民年金到什麼讓造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好有這樣確認就好再次感謝謝謝次長主席長辛苦謝謝好謝謝洪孟凱委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7960\t13427\t主席謝謝麻煩請我們主計長跟陳主席還有阮次長\n15578\t30027\t孟凱文委員好好 主席長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府地方政府是一體的\n30968\t57457\t地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法\n60259\t74935\t2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億\n76107\t90227\t八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实那当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下\n91383\t108260\t之前有传出说财政部有邀22个县市来政府讨论财化法院版的一个部分开会的一个状况各县市的反应如何我们过去就针对财化法有开过四次会昨天又开了一次会\n108740\t127002\t沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障\n128183\t152192\t那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那一部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題\n153112\t166988\t因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長\n168229\t190921\t還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是 沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走\n191721\t202368\t因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那一部分那一部分那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題\n222101\t249324\t因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右\n250044\t271092\t因為我知道我們的召委還是要配合行政院的政策畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究柢我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究柢院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論\n273053\t292236\t這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在草擬相關的這個修正草案\n293137\t316205\t好 我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法\n316305\t331288\t你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近\n331408\t356252\t因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多 而且大家都該表達都表達了好 所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好 那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金 保險\n360453\t384486\t那我想請教院版的這個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金\n385266\t401509\t我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓他做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用\n402571\t422513\t到什麼國民年金到什麼讓造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好 有這樣確認就好再次感謝謝謝 次長 主席長辛苦謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員\n","txt":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們主計長跟陳主席還有阮次長\n孟凱文委員好好 主席長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府地方政府是一體的\n地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法\n2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億\n八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实那当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下\n之前有传出说财政部有邀22个县市来政府讨论财化法院版的一个部分开会的一个状况各县市的反应如何我们过去就针对财化法有开过四次会昨天又开了一次会\n沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障\n那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那一部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題\n因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長\n還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是 沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走\n因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那一部分那一部分那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題\n因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右\n因為我知道我們的召委還是要配合行政院的政策畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究柢我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究柢院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論\n這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在草擬相關的這個修正草案\n好 我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法\n你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近\n因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多 而且大家都該表達都表達了好 所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好 那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金 保險\n那我想請教院版的這個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金\n我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓他做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用\n到什麼國民年金到什麼讓造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好 有這樣確認就好再次感謝謝謝 次長 主席長辛苦謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.960 --> 00:13.427\n主席謝謝麻煩請我們主計長跟陳主席還有阮次長\n\n00:15.578 --> 00:30.027\n孟凱文委員好好主席長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府地方政府是一體的\n\n00:30.968 --> 00:57.457\n地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法\n\n01:00.259 --> 01:14.935\n2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億\n\n01:16.107 --> 01:30.227\n八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实那当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下\n\n01:31.383 --> 01:48.260\n之前有传出说财政部有邀22个县市来政府讨论财化法院版的一个部分开会的一个状况各县市的反应如何我们过去就针对财化法有开过四次会昨天又开了一次会\n\n01:48.740 --> 02:07.002\n沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障\n\n02:08.183 --> 02:32.192\n那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那一部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題\n\n02:33.112 --> 02:46.988\n因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長\n\n02:48.229 --> 03:10.921\n還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走\n\n03:11.721 --> 03:22.368\n因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那一部分那一部分那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題\n\n03:42.101 --> 04:09.324\n因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右\n\n04:10.044 --> 04:31.092\n因為我知道我們的召委還是要配合行政院的政策畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究柢我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究柢院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論\n\n04:33.053 --> 04:52.236\n這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在草擬相關的這個修正草案\n\n04:53.137 --> 05:16.205\n好我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法\n\n05:16.305 --> 05:31.288\n你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近\n\n05:31.408 --> 05:56.252\n因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多而且大家都該表達都表達了好所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金保險\n\n06:00.453 --> 06:24.486\n那我想請教院版的這個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金\n\n06:25.266 --> 06:41.509\n我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓他做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用\n\n06:42.571 --> 07:02.513\n到什麼國民年金到什麼讓造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好有這樣確認就好再次感謝謝謝次長主席長辛苦謝謝好謝謝洪孟凱委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.96,"end":13.427,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請我們主計長跟陳主席還有阮次長"},{"start":15.578,"end":30.027,"text":"孟凱文委員好好 主席長跟次長我想本席特別過來還是一樣就是我們也要幫地方政府來發聲就是地方該用的錢我們大家都希望因為其實中央政府地方政府是一體的"},{"start":30.968,"end":57.457,"text":"地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上中央政府也是用人民身上那只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際更有幫助而且更直接這也是過去為什麼一直討論修法才化法的一個精神那才化法的精神從以前在野不管是執政黨委員或是現在在野的委員其實也都有提案討論那我們現在只想要來確認一下因為我再附和一下剛剛我們張季凱委員講法"},{"start":60.259,"end":74.935,"text":"2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年當時中央政府總預算一兆九千多億到2024年蔡英文政府要離開最後一年編列總預算是兩兆九千多億"},{"start":76.107,"end":90.227,"text":"八年内足足中央政府责任资产都多了一兆这是事实那当然我们要很多的一个费用要花费但更重要的是我们希望是中央地方有钱就要应该合理的分配我先确认一下"},{"start":91.383,"end":108.26,"text":"之前有传出说财政部有邀22个县市来政府讨论财化法院版的一个部分开会的一个状况各县市的反应如何我们过去就针对财化法有开过四次会昨天又开了一次会"},{"start":108.74,"end":127.002,"text":"沒錯那昨天開會其實有很大的一個進展比如說對這個有關分配的架構比如說要確保財政收支差短要優先彌補另外就是要確保它的財源保障"},{"start":128.183,"end":152.192,"text":"那這些基本上大家都沒有不同的意見那至於說有關財政努力或者是基本建設的這一部分的分配指標這一部分指標那一部分大部分的地方政府也大概都沒有太大的意見但是有意見的是哪一部分是各指標的那些權重的問題"},{"start":153.112,"end":166.988,"text":"因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣市長我確認一下昨天是所有22縣市都是財政局局長"},{"start":168.229,"end":190.921,"text":"還是相關財政不一定是局長來但是都是可以代表並且也都充分表達意見我們有沒有會議記錄或是有相關的會議結論會有會議記錄會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份是 沒問題再來您剛剛提到重點其實大家各縣市一定都是本會主義都希望是說我們接下來要怎麼走"},{"start":191.721,"end":202.368,"text":"因為之前也提出說這個院版也會希望在這邊會有相對應的裁劃法的一個修法版本是不是所以我們時間點會落在什麼時候我們是希望因為有兩部分一個就是關於就是那個事權的分配的問題也就是涉及到這個垂直分配那一部分那一部分那麼現在行政院責成各部會那麼去做盤點就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題"},{"start":222.101,"end":249.324,"text":"因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛水平分配基本上來講就是昨天我們談的就是水平分配那我們會參酌這兩個溝通的結論我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案那修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到院裡面11月底以前還是10月11月底以前所以還要在一個半月左右"},{"start":250.044,"end":271.092,"text":"因為我知道我們的召委還是要配合行政院的政策畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水就是說今年的預算很難編明年的預算很難編但其實追根究柢我想我們大家都共同面對但追根究柢院沒有一個版本出來其實你說才化法真的很難討論"},{"start":273.053,"end":292.236,"text":"這也是為什麼我們從去年從第十屆開始一直在講所謂的財務收支劃分法要修法的時候一直等行政院等財政部要提出版本是了解所以我們現在就是正在這個在草擬相關的這個修正草案"},{"start":293.137,"end":316.205,"text":"好 我要確認一下就至少財政部來講因為你說要送到院院還要送院會然後之後才送來立法院但至少財政部什麼時間點可以把它給送到行政院院會報行政院院會這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示我想基本上我們大概財政部這邊還有院裡面的想法就是希望就是說我們的財化法"},{"start":316.305,"end":331.288,"text":"你還需要再開會嗎已經開了四次跟地方政府了還會再開第五次嗎我們不放棄繼續溝通但是原則上是如果除了必要要不然因為時間蠻趕的所以如果可以的話就盡量不要開因為大家意見都表達很近"},{"start":331.408,"end":356.252,"text":"因為意見已經收納得差不多了差不多 而且大家都該表達都表達了好 所以醜媳婦到時候還是要見公婆嘛就到底要怎麼樣處理所以到最後我們總是會按照最公平最合理的方式我們會弄出一個修正草案出來好 那另外我再確認一下因為現在我們有看到是說有黨團還打算提出說才化法修法之後公視無法動之的345億要挹注給國民年金 保險"},{"start":360.453,"end":384.486,"text":"那我想請教院版的這個部分會這樣處理嗎是這樣子因為那一部分只是單純的就現行的財化法就是它因為計算公司的問題所以沒辦法完全分配出去但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源將來如果有修法的話那這一部分還是要按照還是會回歸地方政府使用中央不會動用這一筆資金"},{"start":385.266,"end":401.509,"text":"我要確認這樣子一個態度就是還是會該中央地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理的分配來讓他做公平的分配要有修法的程序不會再去變成挪威他用"},{"start":402.571,"end":422.513,"text":"到什麼國民年金到什麼讓造成族群對立等等的不會我們的想法就是因為這本來就是地方的財源我們按照公式分配下去以後他就統收統支他要用在哪裡他自己做決定好 有這樣確認就好再次感謝謝謝 次長 主席長辛苦謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1158,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時17分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請主計長跟次長。"],["主席：請陳主計長和阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主計長跟次長，本席特別過來，還是一樣，就是我們也要幫地方政府發聲，地方該用的錢，我們大家都希望……其實中央政府和地方政府是一體的，地方政府的預算也是用在人民身上，中央政府預算也是用在人民身上，只是說我們希望是哪一個用得更實際、更有幫助，而且更直接，這也是過去為什麼一直討論修財劃法的精神，從以前到現在，不管是執政黨的委員，或者是現在在野的委員，其實也都有提案討論，我們現在只是想要來確認一下，我再附和一下剛剛張啓楷委員的講法，2016年馬英九政府要卸任的最後一年，當時中央政府總預算是一兆九千多億，到2024年蔡英文政府執政的最後一年，編列的總預算是兩兆九千多億，八年內中央政府總預算足足多了一兆，這是事實，那當然我們有很多的費用要花費，但更重要的是，我們希望是中央、地方有錢就應該合理分配。","我先確認一下，之前有傳出財政部有邀22個縣市來中央政府討論財劃法院版的部分案，那麼開會的狀況如何？各縣市的反應如何？"],["阮次長清華：是。我們過去針對財劃法有開過4次會，昨天又開了會，昨天開會其實有很大的進展，比如說，有關分配的架構，比如說，確保財政收支差短要優先彌補。另外就是要確保財源保障，對於這些，基本上大家都沒有不同的意見。至於有關財政努力或基本建設的分配指標，對指標的部分，大部分地方政府大概都沒有太大的意見，有意見的是哪一部分？是各指標權重的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：這才是關鍵嘛。"],["阮次長清華：因為權重的問題會影響到各縣市分配的金額，所以這一部分各縣市的意見就非常不一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。次長，我確認一下，昨天22縣市都是財政局局長還是相關人員來？"],["阮次長清華：不一定是局長來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。但是都是可以代表並充分表達意見的人？"],["阮次長清華：有充分授權。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有會議紀錄或是相關的會議結論？"],["阮次長清華：會有會議紀錄。"],["洪委員孟楷：會後是不是也能夠提供給本席一份？"],["阮次長清華：是，沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，您剛剛提到的重點，其實各縣市一定都是本位主義嘛，那我們接下來要怎麼走？之前也提到希望會有相對應的院版財劃法修法版本。"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以時間點呢？會落在什麼時候？"],["阮次長清華：有兩部分，一個就是關於事權分配的問題，也就是涉及到垂直分配那一部分，現在行政院也責成各部會去盤點，就是關於垂直分配跟事權分配的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為大家concern的其實都還是在垂直分配嘛，水平分配基本上來講就是……"],["阮次長清華：昨天我們談的是水平分配，我們會參酌溝通的結論，我們會研擬一個財政收支劃分法的修正草案，修正草案我們希望能夠在11月底以前可以送到大院來。"],["洪委員孟楷：11月底以前還是11月？"],["阮次長清華：11月底以前。"],["洪委員孟楷：11月底以前，所以還要再一個半月左右？"],["阮次長清華：希望可以，但是還是要配合行政院的政策。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是畢竟剛剛主計長也一直吐苦水，說今年的預算很難編，明年的預算很難編，我們大家都共同面對，但追根究底，院沒有一個版本出來，財劃法真的很難討論，這也是為什麼我們從去年、從第10屆開始，在講財務收支劃分法要修法的時候，一直等行政院、等財政部提出版本。"],["阮次長清華：是、是，了解、了解。所以我們現在正在草擬相關的修正草案。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我確認一下，至少財政部來講，你說要送到院，院還要送院會，然後之後才送來立法院嘛。那最快財政部什麼時間點可以把它送到行政院院會、報行政院會？"],["阮次長清華：這一部分我們會配合行政院的指示，基本上財政部和行政院的想法是希望讓我們的財劃法分配……"],["洪委員孟楷：你還需要再開會嗎？已經跟地方政府開了4次會，還會再開第5次嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我們不放棄繼續溝通，但是原則上是除非必要，要不然就不要開，因為時間滿趕的，所以如果可以的話，我們儘量不要開，因為大家意見都表達很清楚了。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為意見已經收納得差不多了，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：都差不多，而且都該表達的都表達了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以醜媳婦到最後還是要見公婆嘛。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：到底要怎麼樣處理？"],["阮次長清華：到最後，我們總是會按照最公平、最合理的方式，我們會弄出一個修正草案出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我再確認一下，現在我們有看到有黨團打算提出，財劃法修法之後，公式無法動支的345億元要挹注給國民年金保險，那我想請教，院版這一個部分會這樣處理嗎？"],["阮次長清華：是這樣子，因為那一部分只是單純地就現行的財劃法，因為計算公式的問題，所以沒辦法完全分配出去，但是這些錢畢竟還是地方政府的財源，將來如果有修法的話，這一部分還是要按照公式分配……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是會回歸地方政府使用嘛？"],["阮次長清華：中央不會動用這一筆資金。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。我要確認這樣子的態度，就是該地方政府使用的還是會回歸地方政府使用，只是我們要想出怎麼樣合理分配，來做公平分配，是吧？"],["阮次長清華：對。要有修法的程序。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會變成挪為他用，到國民年金或造成族群對立的用途等等的，不會？"],["阮次長清華：依我們的想法，因為這本來就是地方的財源，我們按照公式分配下去以後，就統收統支，要用在哪裡他自己做決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，有這樣確認就好。再次感謝，謝謝次長、主計長，辛苦，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","我們請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","我們請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","今日發言登記的委員均已詢答完畢。","有臨時提案1案，因為在場委員不足，我們不處理。","本次會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復者或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，依其所定。","委員陳玉珍、楊瓊瓔、高金素梅、謝衣鳯所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}}