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838.412, \"score\": 0.23}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,339 --> 00:00:28,133\n好謝謝主席有請吳主委請主委林委員好主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體另外一個就是我們的太空通訊不過在面對日劑升高的國際威脅的時候\n\n2\n00:00:30,054 --> 00:00:51,671\n本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护任性建构缺乏清晰比较具体的部署\n\n3\n00:00:53,223 --> 00:01:09,608\n我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透\n\n4\n00:01:13,729 --> 00:01:21,213\n甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國科會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大\n\n5\n00:01:30,757 --> 00:01:39,963\n不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张\n\n6\n00:02:02,358 --> 00:02:23,407\n我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是在硬體的治安,在利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片,\n\n7\n00:02:24,207 --> 00:02:34,091\n我們都會支持所以全部都含在裡面主委因為比較尷尬的點是在於半導體有人稱我記得有媒體稱是為半導體產業在台灣已經從矽鈍變成核式幣人人欲得知\n\n8\n00:02:40,954 --> 00:03:10,594\n所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是everycountryforthemselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为做最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何\n\n9\n00:03:11,915 --> 00:03:26,212\n我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会\n\n10\n00:03:27,193 --> 00:03:51,408\n愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在肖副总统讲的ICTY是合理的咯\n\n11\n00:03:52,068 --> 00:04:12,166\n我们的技术委员不用担心我们的技术绝对是跟有台湾没有从来没有改变这个态度我们的研发绝对是在台湾吴助委您认为萧副总统讲的ICT产业外移这是好还是坏事萧总统讲的不是外移我们是要扩散我们的实力我们当然要做生意啊\n\n12\n00:04:13,047 --> 00:04:30,757\n我们现在半导体产业因为美国非常庞大的市场我只是单纯从一个科技打关者的角度来看请问这是好还是坏是好的因为台湾如果不往外去扩散的话我们的实力没有办法展现到全世界各个角落\n\n13\n00:04:31,477 --> 00:04:33,458\n所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力\n\n14\n00:05:01,737 --> 00:05:29,871\n没有恶意不恶意只有威胁只有威逼利诱拐骗偷抢没有所知要在合法可是法所以我为什么说国际化因为国际法是国际每个国家都说它自己是合法的像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法\n\n15\n00:05:30,211 --> 00:05:48,680\n但合不合中华民国法律不合所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面\n\n16\n00:05:49,460 --> 00:06:10,952\n那这一点来讲身为国科会主委的吴主委您就必须要再三考虑我们现在做的所有作为到底是保护台湾的产业呢还是在销还是在实质上在削弱我们台湾的产业国科会的业务范围我们发展科学园区我们投入资源做科技研发我们回到金创计划好了好\n\n17\n00:06:11,312 --> 00:06:31,739\n那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争\n\n18\n00:06:33,139 --> 00:07:00,715\n這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移\n\n19\n00:07:01,243 --> 00:07:15,860\n但是我們在生意上一定要拓展台灣的實力這就是我現在等一下要問到的我們一直在講我們最先進的技術我們原發技術都是在台灣那主委半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼人\n\n20\n00:07:16,681 --> 00:07:42,754\n那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢\n\n21\n00:07:43,311 --> 00:07:57,946\n我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国客会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是\n\n22\n00:07:58,627 --> 00:08:26,446\n我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移\n\n23\n00:08:28,547 --> 00:08:57,243\n那不好意思我先讓我講完那我就很擔心因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化沒有\n\n24\n00:08:57,583 --> 00:09:23,300\n我们是往外拓展我们的实力我们这样讲当如果说我在美国待过很久一阵时间当美国如果你能拿到美国签证你能在美国落地生根的时候你就会在美国落地生根因为台湾我还没讲我们很多美国落地生根又回到台湾来贡献的也非常多新资的结构失衡大量流向业界这个不是事实我们在台湾在增加当中我们在中科南科都在持续在扩敞\n\n25\n00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:42,112\n最不可能不可能是空洞話要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的\n\n26\n00:09:45,154 --> 00:10:11,127\n那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途\n\n27\n00:10:12,628 --> 00:10:26,728\n主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎\n\n28\n00:10:28,390 --> 00:10:54,324\n他到台灣來他也要聘用台灣的人才啊我們到美國去也是聘用外國人才互相交流把我們最優質的人才往美國送然後把外國人才進來的時候並不是他們最優秀的人才的時候我覺得這件事是很危險的事情我們不是把人才往美國送不是這樣講法我們是要擴充我們的實力我們在美國教會了當地人才製造\n\n29\n00:10:55,164 --> 00:11:23,669\n幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要帶全世界做生意當然要往外擴充這樣台灣才會更強大我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才斷才你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵\n\n30\n00:11:25,575 --> 00:11:54,750\n好所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術那是不是我們台灣的人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流\n\n31\n00:11:55,470 --> 00:12:14,017\n不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為\n\n32\n00:12:15,117 --> 00:12:44,650\n钱给的不够多心受委屈了老实说钱给的够不够多是所有不管在商业人才里面最主要的一块我们台湾的经济实力会一直不断的进步可是我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟日本的就业市场拼比我们的薪资结构就没有人家强的时候我们的薪水就没有人家高的时候我们还期待说用爱国心来一直把台湾人才留住这是对业界是不公平\n\n33\n00:12:45,010 --> 00:13:11,138\n我們如果產生不往外擴散我剛剛講過惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員我的策略跟你完全相反\n\n34\n00:13:11,678 --> 00:13:31,274\n你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才\n\n35\n00:13:40,342 --> 00:13:58,412\n但是当我们的优质人才一批的被因为高薪而去美国的时候我就担心这样的存在而这是趋势谢谢好谢谢配箱委员诸葳请回座是如果配箱委员他这边咨询的你没有诸葳没有回答完整的部分请他会后再送资料给你\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3339\t28133\t好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委請主委林委員好 主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體另外一個就是我們的太空通訊不過在面對日劑升高的國際威脅的時候\n30054\t51671\t本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护任性建构缺乏清晰比较具体的部署\n53223\t69608\t我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透\n73729\t81213\t甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國科會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大\n90757\t99963\t不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张\n122358\t143407\t我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是在硬體的治安,在利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片,\n144207\t154091\t我們都會支持所以全部都含在裡面主委因為比較尷尬的點是在於半導體有人稱我記得有媒體稱是為半導體產業在台灣已經從矽鈍變成核式幣人人欲得知\n160954\t190594\t所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是every country for themselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为做最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何\n191915\t206212\t我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会\n207193\t231408\t愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在肖副总统讲的ICTY是合理的咯\n232068\t252166\t我们的技术委员不用担心我们的技术绝对是跟有台湾没有从来没有改变这个态度我们的研发绝对是在台湾吴助委您认为萧副总统讲的ICT产业外移这是好还是坏事萧总统讲的不是外移我们是要扩散我们的实力我们当然要做生意啊\n253047\t270757\t我们现在半导体产业因为美国非常庞大的市场我只是单纯从一个科技打关者的角度来看请问这是好还是坏是好的因为台湾如果不往外去扩散的话我们的实力没有办法展现到全世界各个角落\n271477\t273458\t所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力\n301737\t329871\t没有恶意不恶意只有威胁只有威逼利诱拐骗偷抢没有所知要在合法可是法所以我为什么说国际化因为国际法是国际每个国家都说它自己是合法的像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法\n330211\t348680\t但合不合中华民国法律不合所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面\n349460\t370952\t那这一点来讲身为国科会主委的吴主委您就必须要再三考虑我们现在做的所有作为到底是保护台湾的产业呢还是在销还是在实质上在削弱我们台湾的产业国科会的业务范围我们发展科学园区我们投入资源做科技研发我们回到金创计划好了好\n371312\t391739\t那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税 透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争\n393139\t420715\t這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移\n421243\t435860\t但是我們在生意上一定要拓展台灣的實力這就是我現在等一下要問到的我們一直在講我們最先進的技術我們原發技術都是在台灣那主委半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼人\n436681\t462754\t那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢\n463311\t477946\t我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国客会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是\n478627\t506446\t我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移\n508547\t537243\t那不好意思我先讓我講完那我就很擔心因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化沒有\n537583\t563300\t我们是往外拓展我们的实力我们这样讲当如果说我在美国待过很久一阵时间当美国如果你能拿到美国签证你能在美国落地生根的时候你就会在美国落地生根因为台湾我还没讲我们很多美国落地生根又回到台湾来贡献的也非常多新资的结构失衡大量流向业界这个不是事实我们在台湾在增加当中我们在中科南科都在持续在扩敞\n564220\t582112\t最不可能不可能是空洞話要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的\n585154\t611127\t那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途\n612628\t626728\t主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎\n628390\t654324\t他到台灣來他也要聘用台灣的人才啊我們到美國去也是聘用外國人才互相交流把我們最優質的人才往美國送然後把外國人才進來的時候並不是他們最優秀的人才的時候我覺得這件事是很危險的事情我們不是把人才往美國送不是這樣講法我們是要擴充我們的實力我們在美國教會了當地人才製造\n655164\t683669\t幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要帶全世界做生意當然要往外擴充這樣台灣才會更強大我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才 斷才你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵\n685575\t714750\t好 所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術那是不是我們台灣的人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流\n715470\t734017\t不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為\n735117\t764650\t钱给的不够多心受委屈了老实说钱给的够不够多是所有不管在商业人才里面最主要的一块我们台湾的经济实力会一直不断的进步可是我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟日本的就业市场拼比我们的薪资结构就没有人家强的时候我们的薪水就没有人家高的时候我们还期待说用爱国心来一直把台湾人才留住这是对业界是不公平\n765010\t791138\t我們如果產生不往外擴散我剛剛講過惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說 篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員 我的策略跟你完全相反\n791678\t811274\t你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才\n820342\t838412\t但是当我们的优质人才一批的被因为高薪而去美国的时候我就担心这样的存在而这是趋势谢谢好谢谢配箱委员诸葳请回座是如果配箱委员他这边咨询的你没有诸葳没有回答完整的部分请他会后再送资料给你\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委請主委林委員好 主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體另外一個就是我們的太空通訊不過在面對日劑升高的國際威脅的時候\n本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护任性建构缺乏清晰比较具体的部署\n我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透\n甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國科會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大\n不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张\n我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是在硬體的治安,在利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片,\n我們都會支持所以全部都含在裡面主委因為比較尷尬的點是在於半導體有人稱我記得有媒體稱是為半導體產業在台灣已經從矽鈍變成核式幣人人欲得知\n所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是every country for themselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为做最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何\n我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会\n愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在肖副总统讲的ICTY是合理的咯\n我们的技术委员不用担心我们的技术绝对是跟有台湾没有从来没有改变这个态度我们的研发绝对是在台湾吴助委您认为萧副总统讲的ICT产业外移这是好还是坏事萧总统讲的不是外移我们是要扩散我们的实力我们当然要做生意啊\n我们现在半导体产业因为美国非常庞大的市场我只是单纯从一个科技打关者的角度来看请问这是好还是坏是好的因为台湾如果不往外去扩散的话我们的实力没有办法展现到全世界各个角落\n所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力\n没有恶意不恶意只有威胁只有威逼利诱拐骗偷抢没有所知要在合法可是法所以我为什么说国际化因为国际法是国际每个国家都说它自己是合法的像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法\n但合不合中华民国法律不合所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面\n那这一点来讲身为国科会主委的吴主委您就必须要再三考虑我们现在做的所有作为到底是保护台湾的产业呢还是在销还是在实质上在削弱我们台湾的产业国科会的业务范围我们发展科学园区我们投入资源做科技研发我们回到金创计划好了好\n那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税 透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争\n這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移\n但是我們在生意上一定要拓展台灣的實力這就是我現在等一下要問到的我們一直在講我們最先進的技術我們原發技術都是在台灣那主委半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼人\n那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢\n我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国客会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是\n我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移\n那不好意思我先讓我講完那我就很擔心因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化沒有\n我们是往外拓展我们的实力我们这样讲当如果说我在美国待过很久一阵时间当美国如果你能拿到美国签证你能在美国落地生根的时候你就会在美国落地生根因为台湾我还没讲我们很多美国落地生根又回到台湾来贡献的也非常多新资的结构失衡大量流向业界这个不是事实我们在台湾在增加当中我们在中科南科都在持续在扩敞\n最不可能不可能是空洞話要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的\n那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途\n主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎\n他到台灣來他也要聘用台灣的人才啊我們到美國去也是聘用外國人才互相交流把我們最優質的人才往美國送然後把外國人才進來的時候並不是他們最優秀的人才的時候我覺得這件事是很危險的事情我們不是把人才往美國送不是這樣講法我們是要擴充我們的實力我們在美國教會了當地人才製造\n幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要帶全世界做生意當然要往外擴充這樣台灣才會更強大我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才 斷才你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵\n好 所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術那是不是我們台灣的人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流\n不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為\n钱给的不够多心受委屈了老实说钱给的够不够多是所有不管在商业人才里面最主要的一块我们台湾的经济实力会一直不断的进步可是我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟日本的就业市场拼比我们的薪资结构就没有人家强的时候我们的薪水就没有人家高的时候我们还期待说用爱国心来一直把台湾人才留住这是对业界是不公平\n我們如果產生不往外擴散我剛剛講過惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說 篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員 我的策略跟你完全相反\n你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才\n但是当我们的优质人才一批的被因为高薪而去美国的时候我就担心这样的存在而这是趋势谢谢好谢谢配箱委员诸葳请回座是如果配箱委员他这边咨询的你没有诸葳没有回答完整的部分请他会后再送资料给你\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.339 --> 00:28.133\n好謝謝主席有請吳主委請主委林委員好主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體另外一個就是我們的太空通訊不過在面對日劑升高的國際威脅的時候\n\n00:30.054 --> 00:51.671\n本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护任性建构缺乏清晰比较具体的部署\n\n00:53.223 --> 01:09.608\n我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透\n\n01:13.729 --> 01:21.213\n甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國科會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大\n\n01:30.757 --> 01:39.963\n不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张\n\n02:02.358 --> 02:23.407\n我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是在硬體的治安,在利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片,\n\n02:24.207 --> 02:34.091\n我們都會支持所以全部都含在裡面主委因為比較尷尬的點是在於半導體有人稱我記得有媒體稱是為半導體產業在台灣已經從矽鈍變成核式幣人人欲得知\n\n02:40.954 --> 03:10.594\n所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是everycountryforthemselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为做最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何\n\n03:11.915 --> 03:26.212\n我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会\n\n03:27.193 --> 03:51.408\n愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在肖副总统讲的ICTY是合理的咯\n\n03:52.068 --> 04:12.166\n我们的技术委员不用担心我们的技术绝对是跟有台湾没有从来没有改变这个态度我们的研发绝对是在台湾吴助委您认为萧副总统讲的ICT产业外移这是好还是坏事萧总统讲的不是外移我们是要扩散我们的实力我们当然要做生意啊\n\n04:13.047 --> 04:30.757\n我们现在半导体产业因为美国非常庞大的市场我只是单纯从一个科技打关者的角度来看请问这是好还是坏是好的因为台湾如果不往外去扩散的话我们的实力没有办法展现到全世界各个角落\n\n04:31.477 --> 04:33.458\n所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力\n\n05:01.737 --> 05:29.871\n没有恶意不恶意只有威胁只有威逼利诱拐骗偷抢没有所知要在合法可是法所以我为什么说国际化因为国际法是国际每个国家都说它自己是合法的像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法\n\n05:30.211 --> 05:48.680\n但合不合中华民国法律不合所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面\n\n05:49.460 --> 06:10.952\n那这一点来讲身为国科会主委的吴主委您就必须要再三考虑我们现在做的所有作为到底是保护台湾的产业呢还是在销还是在实质上在削弱我们台湾的产业国科会的业务范围我们发展科学园区我们投入资源做科技研发我们回到金创计划好了好\n\n06:11.312 --> 06:31.739\n那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争\n\n06:33.139 --> 07:00.715\n這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移\n\n07:01.243 --> 07:15.860\n但是我們在生意上一定要拓展台灣的實力這就是我現在等一下要問到的我們一直在講我們最先進的技術我們原發技術都是在台灣那主委半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼人\n\n07:16.681 --> 07:42.754\n那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢\n\n07:43.311 --> 07:57.946\n我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国客会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是\n\n07:58.627 --> 08:26.446\n我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移\n\n08:28.547 --> 08:57.243\n那不好意思我先讓我講完那我就很擔心因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化沒有\n\n08:57.583 --> 09:23.300\n我们是往外拓展我们的实力我们这样讲当如果说我在美国待过很久一阵时间当美国如果你能拿到美国签证你能在美国落地生根的时候你就会在美国落地生根因为台湾我还没讲我们很多美国落地生根又回到台湾来贡献的也非常多新资的结构失衡大量流向业界这个不是事实我们在台湾在增加当中我们在中科南科都在持续在扩敞\n\n09:24.220 --> 09:42.112\n最不可能不可能是空洞話要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的\n\n09:45.154 --> 10:11.127\n那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途\n\n10:12.628 --> 10:26.728\n主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎\n\n10:28.390 --> 10:54.324\n他到台灣來他也要聘用台灣的人才啊我們到美國去也是聘用外國人才互相交流把我們最優質的人才往美國送然後把外國人才進來的時候並不是他們最優秀的人才的時候我覺得這件事是很危險的事情我們不是把人才往美國送不是這樣講法我們是要擴充我們的實力我們在美國教會了當地人才製造\n\n10:55.164 --> 11:23.669\n幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要帶全世界做生意當然要往外擴充這樣台灣才會更強大我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才斷才你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵\n\n11:25.575 --> 11:54.750\n好所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術那是不是我們台灣的人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流\n\n11:55.470 --> 12:14.017\n不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為\n\n12:15.117 --> 12:44.650\n钱给的不够多心受委屈了老实说钱给的够不够多是所有不管在商业人才里面最主要的一块我们台湾的经济实力会一直不断的进步可是我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟日本的就业市场拼比我们的薪资结构就没有人家强的时候我们的薪水就没有人家高的时候我们还期待说用爱国心来一直把台湾人才留住这是对业界是不公平\n\n12:45.010 --> 13:11.138\n我們如果產生不往外擴散我剛剛講過惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員我的策略跟你完全相反\n\n13:11.678 --> 13:31.274\n你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才\n\n13:40.342 --> 13:58.412\n但是当我们的优质人才一批的被因为高薪而去美国的时候我就担心这样的存在而这是趋势谢谢好谢谢配箱委员诸葳请回座是如果配箱委员他这边咨询的你没有诸葳没有回答完整的部分请他会后再送资料给你\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.339,"end":28.133,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請吳主委請主委林委員好 主委好國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手手上掌握了兩大關鍵的戰略資產一個是我們的半導體另外一個就是我們的太空通訊不過在面對日劑升高的國際威脅的時候"},{"start":30.054,"end":51.671,"text":"本席认为我们的科技政策似乎还停留在所谓20世纪末的产业思维就是1970到1980年代之后的产业思维对于我们现在21世纪的多元化国际化的挑战那对于整个挑战上面的应变防护任性建构缺乏清晰比较具体的部署"},{"start":53.223,"end":69.608,"text":"我們就先從半導體開始講起好了主委半導體是我們台灣的經濟命脈那也是說我們在面對不管是中國軍事還是美國關稅還是甚至是日本的日本甚至韓國的這個商業間諜的威脅灰色地帶滲透"},{"start":73.729,"end":81.213,"text":"甚至惡意的關鍵人才挖角的時候本席對於我們台灣在半導體產業的未來競爭優勢其實我是憂心的而國科會主導的這個精創台灣計畫十年三千億目標宏大"},{"start":90.757,"end":99.963,"text":"不过在面对21世纪的国际化多元化的威胁的时候我比较关心所谓防护跟韧性而不是一般一昧的只是讲所谓的扩张"},{"start":122.358,"end":143.407,"text":"我們並沒有特別去計算這個比例,但是在硬體的治安,在利用科技來增加國家的韌性,這一點我們現在是非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業需要的晶片,"},{"start":144.207,"end":154.091,"text":"我們都會支持所以全部都含在裡面主委因為比較尷尬的點是在於半導體有人稱我記得有媒體稱是為半導體產業在台灣已經從矽鈍變成核式幣人人欲得知"},{"start":160.954,"end":190.594,"text":"所以说面对敌意国家我想这个敌意国家严格讲起来我不是指任何一个国家但是every country for themselves所以每个国家都会自己的利益为做最优先的打算所以也有可能每一个国家对中华民国都是有敌意的这点我们必须认同产业就是这样那面对敌意国家对于我们的半导体产业链包括原料设备设计跟晶圆厂的锻炼威胁国科会具体的反制跟备原方案为何"},{"start":191.915,"end":206.212,"text":"我们其实对于我们的关键核心的科技我们都有盘点都有保护那对于所有的国家愿意跟台湾做合理的往来友好的国家我们当然都会"},{"start":207.193,"end":231.408,"text":"愿意跟他合作因为台湾不能够只看自己国内的市场我们的半导体是要开拓全球的市场所以不能够把自己关在自己的国家里面所谓合理请解释一下合理当然就是在贸易上条件是合理的那允许我们去合理的去做生意所以你认为现在肖副总统讲的ICTY是合理的咯"},{"start":232.068,"end":252.166,"text":"我们的技术委员不用担心我们的技术绝对是跟有台湾没有从来没有改变这个态度我们的研发绝对是在台湾吴助委您认为萧副总统讲的ICT产业外移这是好还是坏事萧总统讲的不是外移我们是要扩散我们的实力我们当然要做生意啊"},{"start":253.047,"end":270.757,"text":"我们现在半导体产业因为美国非常庞大的市场我只是单纯从一个科技打关者的角度来看请问这是好还是坏是好的因为台湾如果不往外去扩散的话我们的实力没有办法展现到全世界各个角落"},{"start":271.477,"end":273.458,"text":"所以我们当然是希望能够展现实力"},{"start":301.737,"end":329.871,"text":"没有恶意不恶意只有威胁只有威逼利诱拐骗偷抢没有所知要在合法可是法所以我为什么说国际化因为国际法是国际每个国家都说它自己是合法的像我个人认为美国有些时候对我们的一些大厂做出一些相对用美国的反托拉斯法对我们的国家大厂在国外去做出严重的罚款这一点都不合理但是合他们的法"},{"start":330.211,"end":348.68,"text":"但合不合中华民国法律不合所以这一点甚至现在我们也知道捷安特现在因为外劳的原因被美国科语重罚这也是不合理但是合不合美国法合美国的法那这一点来讲就是我提到的国际化跟多元化的威胁尤其在半导体产业上面"},{"start":349.46,"end":370.952,"text":"那这一点来讲身为国科会主委的吴主委您就必须要再三考虑我们现在做的所有作为到底是保护台湾的产业呢还是在销还是在实质上在削弱我们台湾的产业国科会的业务范围我们发展科学园区我们投入资源做科技研发我们回到金创计划好了好"},{"start":371.312,"end":391.739,"text":"那金创计划如何确保今天联发投资不会在明日的冲突之中我指的冲突因为半导体之间的竞争严格讲起来这不用实质上的战争也是一场看不见烟消的战争透过关税 透过保护措施透过各种惩罚措施这种战争叫做看不见的战争"},{"start":393.139,"end":420.715,"text":"這種看不見的戰爭有時候摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈飛來飛去風火連天但是實質上對於國家的摧毀性不亞於一場戰爭所以為什麼我想說精創計畫如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢所以我剛剛跟委員報告就是說我們的最先進的技術研發一定是在台灣我們並沒有外移"},{"start":421.243,"end":435.86,"text":"但是我們在生意上一定要拓展台灣的實力這就是我現在等一下要問到的我們一直在講我們最先進的技術我們原發技術都是在台灣那主委半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼人"},{"start":436.681,"end":462.754,"text":"那想請問這些也是我們敵對勢力我們敵對的國家在半導體上面競爭的國家不管是惡意競爭就是敵對那在這種惡意勢力灰色地帶滲透挖角甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標那想請問國科會作為科技主管機關針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護包括防滲透防挖角防威脅協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施呢"},{"start":463.311,"end":477.946,"text":"我们最近政府对这一点已经更进一步强化国客会现在也跟法务部非常紧密在合作具体有些什么具体有些什么这个具体我们有一些机密的这个措施是不方便透露但是"},{"start":478.627,"end":506.446,"text":"我們在保護我們敏感科技我們還有已經進到我們的國安法的範圍之內這個是國會跟經濟部還有法務部是一起在合作的所以這個請委員放心我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊因為你剛剛講說如果您認同ICT的產業外移ICT那個產業鏈包括設計都要外移"},{"start":508.547,"end":537.243,"text":"那不好意思我先讓我講完那我就很擔心因為不管是說去伸展國家實力然後我們的台灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士科技人才居然到美國去當美國公民當美國的F1簽證的時候然後我們這樣子來講我們這樣子就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯我們頂尖的理工博士人才因為新資結構的失衡我們在台灣是在增加沒有在空洞化沒有"},{"start":537.583,"end":563.3,"text":"我们是往外拓展我们的实力我们这样讲当如果说我在美国待过很久一阵时间当美国如果你能拿到美国签证你能在美国落地生根的时候你就会在美国落地生根因为台湾我还没讲我们很多美国落地生根又回到台湾来贡献的也非常多新资的结构失衡大量流向业界这个不是事实我们在台湾在增加当中我们在中科南科都在持续在扩敞"},{"start":564.22,"end":582.112,"text":"最不可能不可能是空洞話要培養的人才在這一段時間之內大幅度的所以委員不要再我們只是在討論那這個事情如果說真的會是事實所以我跟委員澄清一下我們現在是討論說這個未來趨勢是很明顯的"},{"start":585.154,"end":611.127,"text":"那你如果說現在不是事實但是未來是不是趨勢我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈流到美國去有沒有這個可能性有沒有就好我們到廠商到美國設廠擴產那設廠到美國的時候他們的人在美國如果要合法工作是不是要F1簽證是不是要拿到綠卡我們當然盡量要拼我們要拼的是當地的人才啊請問一下拿到綠卡他們會不會回來要擴充台灣的實力要拼用當地的人才這個才是正途"},{"start":612.628,"end":626.728,"text":"主委我們今天不是在做討論我們是在討論說所謂的人才我講的就是事實台積電在美國你講的是事實但是我講的是趨勢而且我們都可以不是預設立場大家都可以看到的趨勢的時候現在人才斷層就是國安斷層我們不是也有外國的廠商到台灣來設廠嗎"},{"start":628.39,"end":654.324,"text":"他到台灣來他也要聘用台灣的人才啊我們到美國去也是聘用外國人才互相交流把我們最優質的人才往美國送然後把外國人才進來的時候並不是他們最優秀的人才的時候我覺得這件事是很危險的事情我們不是把人才往美國送不是這樣講法我們是要擴充我們的實力我們在美國教會了當地人才製造"},{"start":655.164,"end":683.669,"text":"幫我們做製造我們的實力就擴充了台灣的人力有限我們要帶全世界做生意當然要往外擴充這樣台灣才會更強大我必須在這邊重新再提出一次主委我們今天要討論的我是相對來講我是想就是論是討論未來國安人才人才 斷才你現在如果只是以現在的事實以現在你所認同的事實國科院是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展我鼓勵"},{"start":685.575,"end":714.75,"text":"好 所以說蕭副總統講的話你完全認同我認同我們要把全世界跟台灣的連結要強化所以我當然我們要把我們的實力往外拓展讓全世界使用台灣製造的技術那是不是我們台灣的人才會外流呢會不會我們不會外流為什麼不會外流當美國的薪資是我們的三倍的時候為什麼不會外流我們要交流我們要跟別人學習當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候為什麼不會外流"},{"start":715.47,"end":734.017,"text":"不會外流我們的人才會往來國外也有人才會進到台灣來這個不叫外流我們要讓自己更強大不能夠鎖國你在業界待過吧你在業界待過就知道有一個人講過一句話人才為什麼留不住因為"},{"start":735.117,"end":764.65,"text":"钱给的不够多心受委屈了老实说钱给的够不够多是所有不管在商业人才里面最主要的一块我们台湾的经济实力会一直不断的进步可是我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟美国的就业市场拼比我们是在跟日本的就业市场拼比我们的薪资结构就没有人家强的时候我们的薪水就没有人家高的时候我们还期待说用爱国心来一直把台湾人才留住这是对业界是不公平"},{"start":765.01,"end":791.138,"text":"我們如果產生不往外擴散我剛剛講過惡意的敵對勢力或者是要講敵意的勢力因為這是一個看不見煙消的戰爭所有國家針對半導體的優勢的消長都有可能去對台灣的威脅那這一點來講的時候我們就必須很現實的看到這些那我們現在在講人才會不會流失那你一直說 篤定說不會因為現在事實就不會現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始移動委員 我的策略跟你完全相反"},{"start":791.678,"end":811.274,"text":"你講的目的我是同意的台灣要更強更強的話我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力這樣台灣才會越來越富有越來經濟實力越好我們的技術研發的資金會更多我比較擔心人才的培養而不是擔心說單單純純只是產業的流失我們最近你剛剛講過說台灣最核心的是人我們的優質人才"},{"start":820.342,"end":838.412,"text":"但是当我们的优质人才一批的被因为高薪而去美国的时候我就担心这样的存在而这是趋势谢谢好谢谢配箱委员诸葳请回座是如果配箱委员他这边咨询的你没有诸葳没有回答完整的部分请他会后再送资料给你"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":60,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時13分）謝謝主席。有請吳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：主委好。國科會作為我國科技發展的總舵手，手上掌握了兩大關鍵戰略資產：一個是半導體；另外一個則是太空通訊。不過在面對日益升高的國際威脅時，本席認為我們的科技政策似乎還停留在20世紀末的產業思維，也就是1970到1980年代之後的產業思維，對於現在21世紀多元化、國際化的挑戰，對於整個挑戰上的應變、防護、韌性建構，缺乏清晰且具體的部署。","今天就先從半導體開始講起好了。半導體是臺灣的經濟命脈，不管是面對中國的軍事，還是美國關稅，甚或是日本、韓國的商業間諜威脅、灰色地帶滲透，乃至惡意的關鍵人才挖角，都讓本席對於臺灣半導體產業在未來的競爭優勢感到憂心。","國科會主導的晶創臺灣計畫10年3,000億，目標雖宏大，不過在面對21世紀國際化、多元化的威脅時，我比較關心的是防護與韌性，而不是一昧地只講擴張。","晶創計畫宣示要扶植IC設計新創、強化科研基礎。但在面對各種情勢之下，這些投資可能相對會比較脆弱一點。國科會這3,000億預算到底具體規劃了多少比例用在強化供應鏈韌性跟關鍵基礎防護設施？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們並沒有特別去計算比例，但是在硬體的資安上利用科技來增加國家的韌性，這一點我們現在非常積極在努力。所以包含軍工產業、安控產業所需要的晶片我們都會支持，所以全部都含在裡面。"],["林委員沛祥：比較尷尬的點在於，有媒體稱臺灣的半導體產業已經從矽盾變成和氏璧，人人皆欲得之。所以面對敵意國家─嚴格講起來，「敵意國家」不是指任何一個國家，而是every country for themselves，每個國家都會為自己的利益做最優先的打算。因此，有可能每一個國家對中華民國都是有敵意的，這點我們必須承認，畢竟產業就是這樣！","面對敵意國家對於我們半導體產業鏈，包括原料、設備設計跟晶圓廠的斷鏈威脅，國科會具體的反制跟備援方案為何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實對於關鍵核心科技，我們都有盤點、都有保護；對於所有國家，凡願意跟臺灣做合理的往來、友好的國家，我們當然都願意合作，因為臺灣不能只看自己國內的市場！我們的半導體需要開拓全球市場，所以不能把自己關在自己的國家裡面。"],["林委員沛祥：請解釋一下何謂合理？"],["吳主任委員誠文：合理當然就是在貿易上條件是合理的，允許我們合理的去做生意。我們的技術……"],["林委員沛祥：所以你認為蕭副總統講的是合理的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員不用擔心我們的技術，我們的技術絕對是跟……從來沒有改變這個態度，我們的研發絕對是在臺灣。"],["林委員沛祥：吳主委，您認為蕭副總統講的ICT產業外移是好事還是壞事？"],["吳主任委員誠文：蕭副總統講的不是外移，我們是要擴散我們的實力。我們當然要做生意，現在的半導體產業因為美國有非常龐大的市場……"],["林委員沛祥：我只是單純從一個科技把關者的角度來看，請問這是好還是壞？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是好的！因為臺灣如果不往外去擴散的話，我們的實力就沒有辦法展現到全世界各個角落。所以我們當然希望能在一個可以合理跟我們做生意，然後又是一個很重要的市場展現實力。"],["林委員沛祥：同樣的，如果當初日本商業間諜買通台積電的工程師來透露技術，你認為這樣也是合理的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這種違法行為當然要制裁啊！"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我剛剛在講的，任何國家都有可能成為敵意國家。就這點來講，我們必須很清楚、很務實地面對這一切！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["林委員沛祥：產業的競爭沒有對錯，只有合法不合法；沒有惡意不惡意，只有威脅、威逼、利誘、拐騙、偷搶，只要合法，所以法是因。我為什麼說國際化？因為International Laws，每個國家都說他自己是合法的！我個人認為美國以反托拉斯法對我們的國際大廠祭出嚴重罰款，這一點都不合理，但是合他們的法！至於合不合中華民國的法律？不合！譬如捷安特因為外勞被美國課以重罰，這也不合理，但合不合美國法？合美國的法。這一點就是我所提到的國際化跟多元化的威脅，尤其在半導體產業上。身為國科會主委的吳主委，您必須就這點再三考慮我們現在做的所有作為到底是保護臺灣的產業，還是實質上在削弱臺灣的產業？"],["吳主任委員誠文：以國科會的業務範圍來說，我們發展科學園區、我們投入資源做科技研發……"],["林委員沛祥：我們回到晶創計畫好了。晶創計畫如何確保今天的研發投資不會在明日的衝突之中，我指的衝突是……因為半導體之間的競爭，嚴格講起來雖沒有實質戰爭，其實卻是一場看不見煙硝的戰爭！因此，透過關稅、透過保護措施、透過各種懲罰措施，這種戰爭叫做看不見的戰爭。這種看不見的戰爭其摧毀性可能沒有像飛彈一樣飛來飛去，烽火連天，可是實質上對於國家的摧毀性並不亞於一場戰爭！所以晶創計畫要如何確保今日的研發投資不會在明日的衝突中輕易被摧毀或癱瘓呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我剛剛跟委員報告，我們最先進的技術、研發一定是在臺灣，我們並沒有外移，但是我們在生意上一定要拓展臺灣的實力。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我等一下要問到的，我們一直在講我們最先進的技術、我們研發技術都是在臺灣，主委，半導體產業最核心的資產是什麼？人。想請問，這些也是我們敵對勢力、我們敵對的國家、在半導體上面競爭的國家，不管是惡意競爭或是敵對，在這種惡意勢力、灰色地帶滲透、挖角，甚至衝突時定點打擊的目標，想請問國科會作為科技主管機關，針對半導體關鍵研發人才的保護，包括防滲透、防挖角、防威脅，有協同國安單位制定什麼樣的防護措施嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：最近政府對這一點已經更進一步強化，國科會現在也跟法務部非常緊密地在合作。"],["林委員沛祥：具體有些什麼措施？"],["吳主任委員誠文：具體上我們有一些機密的措施是不方便透露，但是我們在保護我們敏感科技……"],["林委員沛祥：對國會議員也不能……"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為已經進到我們國安法的範圍之內，這個是國科會、經濟部和法務部一起在合作的，所以請委員放心，我們絕對會珍惜我們自己的科技實力。"],["林委員沛祥：其實本席所擔憂的不是只有外部的攻擊，因為你剛剛說，如果您認同ICT的產業外移，ICT產業鏈，包括設計都要外移是一種國家實力的對外延展的時候……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，不是外移。"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，先讓我講完。那我就很擔心，因為不管是說去伸展國家實力，然後臺灣好不容易培養出來的理工博士、科技人才居然要到美國去當美國公民或拿美國F-1簽證的時候，這樣子我們就會知道我們內部的空洞化會很明顯，我們頂尖的理工博士人才會因為薪資結構的失衡……"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，並沒有空洞化，臺灣是在增加，沒有空洞化，我們是往外拓展我們的實力啊！"],["林委員沛祥：我這樣講，我在美國待過很久一段時間，如果你能拿到美國簽證、你能在美國落地生根的時候，你就會在美國落地生根，因為臺灣……我剛剛還沒講完一句話……"],["吳主任委員誠文：在美國落地生根又回到臺灣貢獻的也非常多。"],["林委員沛祥：薪資的結構失衡，大量流向業界……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個不是事實，我們在臺灣是增加當中，我們在中科、南科都在持續擴廠，不可能是空洞化。"],["林委員沛祥：你說在擴廠，但是要培養的人才，我們在這一段時間之內大幅度的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在臺灣擴廠也是臺灣自己的人才啊！所以委員不要再……"],["林委員沛祥：不是，我們只是在討論，這個事情如果真的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員講的不是事實，所以我跟委員澄清一下。"],["林委員沛祥：我們現在是討論說，這個未來趨勢是很明顯的，你如果說現在不是事實，但未來是不是趨勢？我們是不是要把ICT產業鏈挪到美國去？有沒有這個可能性？你回答有沒有就好了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的廠商到美國設廠、擴廠……"],["林委員沛祥：設廠到美國的時候，他們的人如果要在美國合法工作是不是要F1簽證？是不是要拿到綠卡？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然盡量要聘當地人，我們要聘的是當地的人才啊！"],["林委員沛祥：請問拿到綠卡後，他們會不會回來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：要擴充臺灣的實力，要聘用當地的人才，這個才是正途。"],["林委員沛祥：主委，我們今天不是在討論這個，我們是在討論所謂的人才……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我講的就是事實，台積電在美國……"],["林委員沛祥：你講的是事實，但我講的是趨勢，而且不是預設立場，是大家都可以看到的趨勢，現在人才斷層就是國安斷層。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們不是也有外國的廠商到臺灣來設廠嗎？他們到臺灣來，他們也要聘用臺灣的人才……"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是我們比較起來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們到美國去，也是聘用美國的人才……"],["林委員沛祥：外部的人才跟我們……"],["吳主任委員誠文：互相交流才會進步……"],["林委員沛祥：把我們最優質的人才往美國送，然後進來的外國人才並不是他們最優秀的人才，我覺得這是很危險的事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不同意委員的講法，我們不是把人才往美國送，不是這樣的講法，我們是要擴充我們的實力，我們在美國教會了當地人才幫我們做製造，我們的實力就擴充了，畢竟臺灣的人力有限，我們要在全世界做生意當然要往外擴充，這樣臺灣才會更強大啊！"],["林委員沛祥：我必須在這邊重新再提出一次，主委，我是想就事論事地來討論未來國安人才、人才斷層……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是委員的講法就是我不同意的。"],["林委員沛祥：你如果只是以現在的事實、以現在你所認同的事實，而不去……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會是鼓勵我們的廠商往外擴展，我鼓勵！"],["林委員沛祥：好，表示蕭副總統講的話你完全認同？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同我們要把全世界跟臺灣的連結強化，所以我們當然要把我們的實力往外拓展，讓全世界使用臺灣製造的技術。"],["林委員沛祥：我現在最擔心的是，是不是我們臺灣的人才也會外流呢？會不會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們不會外流。"],["林委員沛祥：為什麼不會外流？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的人才到國外去交流，我們要交流，我們要跟別人學習他的……"],["林委員沛祥：當美國的薪資是我們的三倍到五倍的時候，為什麼不會外流？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會外流，我們的人才會往來，國外也有人才會進到臺灣來，這個不叫外流，我們要讓自己更強大，不能夠鎖國。"],["林委員沛祥：主委，你在業界待過吧？你在業界待過就應該知道有一個人講過一句話，人才為什麼留不住？因為錢給得不夠多，心受委屈了。老實說，錢給得夠不夠多是在商業人才裡面最主要的一塊……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們臺灣的經濟實力會一直不斷地進步……"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是我們是在跟美國的就業市場評比、我們是在跟日本就業市場評比，當我們的薪資結構沒有人家強的時候、我們的薪水沒有人家高的時候，我們還期待用愛國心一直把臺灣人才留住，這對業界是不公平的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們如果廠商不往外擴散……"],["林委員沛祥：我剛剛講過，惡意的敵對勢力或者要講敵意的勢力，因為這是一個看不見煙硝的戰爭，所有國家針對半導體優勢的消長都有可能造成臺灣的威脅，從這一點來講的時候，我們就必須很現實地看到這些。我們現在在講人才會不會流失，你一直篤定地說不會，因為現在事實就不會。但現在我們產業鏈就還沒有開始……"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，我的策略跟你完全相反，你講的目的我是同意的，臺灣要更強，要更強的話，我要鼓勵我們強勢的產業往外擴散去增加我們的影響力，這樣臺灣才會越來越富有，經濟實力才會越來越好，我們的技術、研發的資金會更多，臺灣才會更強。"],["林委員沛祥：我比較擔心人才的培養，而不是單單純純只是擔心產業的流失。你剛剛講過，臺灣最核心的是人，即我們的優質人才，但是當我們的優質人才一批又一批……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的優質人才一樣是留在臺灣的。"],["林委員沛祥：因為高薪而去美國的時候，我就擔心這樣的存在，而這是趨勢，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沛祥委員，主委請回座。如果沛祥委員質詢而主委沒有回答完整的部分，請他會後再送資料給你。","接下來請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-4","speakers":["陳秀寳","林沛祥","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","葉元之","羅廷瑋","范雲","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葛如鈞","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","賴惠員","邱志偉","徐富癸","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00001"}}}