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135.08, \"text\": \"因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再一拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 106.21, \"end\": 106.97, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 106.97, \"end\": 107.15, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 107.15, \"end\": 107.37, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"既\", \"start\": 107.37, \"end\": 107.511, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 107.511, \"end\": 107.791, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 107.791, \"end\": 107.971, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.971, \"end\": 108.111, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 108.111, \"end\": 108.291, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 108.291, \"end\": 108.411, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 108.411, \"end\": 108.671, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"排\", 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00:01:09,044\n過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題\n\n4\n00:01:10,004 --> 00:01:24,879\n这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含刮更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责\n\n5\n00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:45,690\n是不是是我們的確認為其實可以有更多規範化空間甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方好那這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工所以遲到總比不到好啦今天願意也說要三個月不過本席提醒\n\n6\n00:01:46,210 --> 00:02:15,080\n因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再一拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出\n\n7\n00:02:16,181 --> 00:02:29,215\n勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告齁其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實他的修訂他的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來的高\n\n8\n00:02:31,457 --> 00:02:53,974\n所以包括他的整个的立法的架构跟立法的技术这件事情我们是非常愿意跟委员来做好好的讨论那尤其是在这个法规的修订上面我自己是秉持这里面绝对没有什么分什么党派的那我觉得能够把这个法规就像委员说的真的是一段时间下来大家终于\n\n9\n00:02:54,674 --> 00:03:15,195\n覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣\n\n10\n00:03:16,676 --> 00:03:36,515\n今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳动部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳动部的执掌上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里\n\n11\n00:03:37,668 --> 00:04:04,657\n所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了那過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本\n\n12\n00:04:06,001 --> 00:04:27,843\n我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞啊但我現在越來越相信了真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧\n\n13\n00:04:29,664 --> 00:04:47,770\n來部長兩個議題我直接就請教因為上午有看到你有答詢的時候講是說希望薪資的一個保障是外送員所在意的嘛對不對你有講說每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資\n\n14\n00:04:49,175 --> 00:05:14,466\n我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限\n\n15\n00:05:15,746 --> 00:05:30,147\n那这个上限处理的是平台跟我们期待的就是外送员期待的就是说他至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了\n\n16\n00:05:31,229 --> 00:05:55,796\n当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时间对\n\n17\n00:05:56,596 --> 00:06:21,923\n每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196明年就196換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊\n\n18\n00:06:26,306 --> 00:06:53,638\n這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪我跟委員說當然是實職的服務期間就是實職的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪\n\n19\n00:06:56,097 --> 00:06:57,444\n所以是不是就跟\n\n20\n00:06:59,813 --> 00:07:25,524\n外界理解又不同了因為你今天上講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題是但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是是部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點\n\n21\n00:07:27,284 --> 00:07:54,103\n保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係他是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障\n\n22\n00:07:55,309 --> 00:08:15,795\n線型他是以所謂的團體傷害線來cover而且是規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了\n\n23\n00:08:17,734 --> 00:08:32,797\n部長你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的\n\n24\n00:08:33,658 --> 00:09:01,928\n第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險\n\n25\n00:09:04,465 --> 00:09:26,943\n我們會朝向第一個他一定要有傷害保險第二個傷害保險以外那尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題是這我們都理解我們會這樣保障他的安全是用災保所以還要再增加災保對好那另外還有災保保障的時間平台要幫忙付保費好那保障的時間\n\n26\n00:09:28,607 --> 00:09:53,072\n總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中\n\n27\n00:09:54,554 --> 00:10:17,235\n所以你未來就會變是什麼就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP只要沒有人給我單我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子\n\n28\n00:10:18,473 --> 00:10:32,787\n跟委員報告目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費啊對目前部長說請教您是勞動法務司嗎\n\n29\n00:10:37,762 --> 00:10:53,207\n保險因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是\n\n30\n00:10:53,867 --> 00:11:14,068\n這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛\n\n31\n00:11:14,488 --> 00:11:35,816\n跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者\n\n32\n00:11:36,816 --> 00:11:48,749\n七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算\n\n33\n00:11:49,885 --> 00:12:10,746\n部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不夠到想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外送平台一定要\n\n34\n00:12:12,661 --> 00:12:36,356\n對付他不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明第一個\n\n35\n00:12:38,194 --> 00:13:02,282\n確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係讓相關的社會保險的規範它跟過去傳統的雇傭關係或者是傳統的一般的承攬關係很不一樣所以它這中間其實它會有一個過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的一個模糊的地帶所以我們現在的確是在這一個\n\n36\n00:13:03,442 --> 00:13:24,585\n雇佣關係跟承攬關係之間我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態這就我講我們之後討論的時候沒有問題我們也希望這個事情可以很大家很理性的然後我們就可以很直接在這個上面大家交換意見好我還是強調我對事不對人所以最後暖心一下\n\n37\n00:13:25,606 --> 00:13:41,799\n部長上禮拜10月18號生日快樂好不好我們一起努力繼續加油為外送員為餐廳為消費者打造良好的外送關係謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員謝謝部長生日快樂蔡宜宇委員蔡宜宇委員蔡宜宇委員不在徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7452\t27271\t好 主席謝謝 麻煩請洪森漢部長請部長部長好 後衛好部長 千呼萬喚使出來今天上午您終於有鬆口講是說兩三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本行政版本 是吧\n28021\t40533\t對 行政部門的版本希望在三個月內那本席也說今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題不是這兩個禮拜的議題而是已經長達了數年了\n43270\t69044\t過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題\n70004\t84879\t这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含刮更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责\n85880\t105690\t是不是是我們的確認為其實可以有更多規範化空間甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方好那這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工所以遲到總比不到好啦今天願意也說要三個月不過本席提醒\n106210\t135080\t因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再一拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出\n136181\t149215\t勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告齁其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實他的修訂他的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來的高\n151457\t173974\t所以包括他的整个的立法的架构跟立法的技术这件事情我们是非常愿意跟委员来做好好的讨论那尤其是在这个法规的修订上面我自己是秉持这里面绝对没有什么分什么党派的那我觉得能够把这个法规就像委员说的真的是一段时间下来大家终于\n174674\t195195\t覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣\n196676\t216515\t今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳动部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳动部的执掌上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里\n217668\t244657\t所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了那過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本\n246001\t267843\t我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞啊但我現在越來越相信了真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧\n269664\t287770\t來部長兩個議題我直接就請教因為上午有看到你有答詢的時候講是說希望薪資的一個保障是外送員所在意的嘛對不對你有講說每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資\n289175\t314466\t我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限\n315746\t330147\t那这个上限处理的是平台跟我们期待的就是外送员期待的就是说他至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了\n331229\t355796\t当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时间对\n356596\t381923\t每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196明年就196換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊\n386306\t413638\t這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪我跟委員說當然是實職的服務期間就是實職的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪\n416097\t417444\t所以是不是就跟\n419813\t445524\t外界理解又不同了因為你今天上講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題是但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是是部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點\n447284\t474103\t保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係他是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障\n475309\t495795\t線型他是以所謂的團體傷害線來cover而且是規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了\n497734\t512797\t部長你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的\n513658\t541928\t第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險\n544465\t566943\t我們會朝向第一個他一定要有傷害保險第二個傷害保險以外那尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題是這我們都理解我們會這樣保障他的安全是用災保所以還要再增加災保對好那另外還有災保保障的時間平台要幫忙付保費好那保障的時間\n568607\t593072\t總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中\n594554\t617235\t所以你未來就會變是什麼 就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP 只要沒有人給我單 我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法 自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後 送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後 我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子\n618473\t632787\t跟委員報告 目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費啊對目前部長說請教您是勞動法務司嗎\n637762\t653207\t保險 因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是\n653867\t674068\t這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛\n674488\t695816\t跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者\n696816\t708749\t七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算\n709885\t730746\t部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不夠到想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外送平台一定要\n732661\t756356\t對付他不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明第一個\n758194\t782282\t確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係讓相關的社會保險的規範它跟過去傳統的雇傭關係或者是傳統的一般的承攬關係很不一樣所以它這中間其實它會有一個過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的一個模糊的地帶所以我們現在的確是在這一個\n783442\t804585\t雇佣關係跟承攬關係之間我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態這就我講我們之後討論的時候沒有問題我們也希望這個事情可以很大家很理性的然後我們就可以很直接在這個上面大家交換意見好我還是強調我對事不對人所以最後暖心一下\n805606\t821799\t部長 上禮拜 10月18號 生日快樂好不好 我們一起努力繼續加油 為外送員 為餐廳 為消費者打造良好的外送關係 謝謝謝謝 洪孟凱委員謝謝部長生日快樂蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在\n","txt":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請洪森漢部長請部長部長好 後衛好部長 千呼萬喚使出來今天上午您終於有鬆口講是說兩三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本行政版本 是吧\n對 行政部門的版本希望在三個月內那本席也說今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題不是這兩個禮拜的議題而是已經長達了數年了\n過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題\n这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含刮更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责\n是不是是我們的確認為其實可以有更多規範化空間甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方好那這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工所以遲到總比不到好啦今天願意也說要三個月不過本席提醒\n因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再一拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出\n勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告齁其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實他的修訂他的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來的高\n所以包括他的整个的立法的架构跟立法的技术这件事情我们是非常愿意跟委员来做好好的讨论那尤其是在这个法规的修订上面我自己是秉持这里面绝对没有什么分什么党派的那我觉得能够把这个法规就像委员说的真的是一段时间下来大家终于\n覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣\n今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳动部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳动部的执掌上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里\n所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了那過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本\n我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞啊但我現在越來越相信了真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧\n來部長兩個議題我直接就請教因為上午有看到你有答詢的時候講是說希望薪資的一個保障是外送員所在意的嘛對不對你有講說每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資\n我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限\n那这个上限处理的是平台跟我们期待的就是外送员期待的就是说他至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了\n当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时间对\n每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196明年就196換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊\n這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪我跟委員說當然是實職的服務期間就是實職的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪\n所以是不是就跟\n外界理解又不同了因為你今天上講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題是但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是是部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點\n保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係他是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障\n線型他是以所謂的團體傷害線來cover而且是規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了\n部長你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的\n第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險\n我們會朝向第一個他一定要有傷害保險第二個傷害保險以外那尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題是這我們都理解我們會這樣保障他的安全是用災保所以還要再增加災保對好那另外還有災保保障的時間平台要幫忙付保費好那保障的時間\n總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中\n所以你未來就會變是什麼 就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP 只要沒有人給我單 我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法 自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後 送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後 我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子\n跟委員報告 目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費啊對目前部長說請教您是勞動法務司嗎\n保險 因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是\n這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛\n跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者\n七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算\n部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不夠到想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外送平台一定要\n對付他不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明第一個\n確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係讓相關的社會保險的規範它跟過去傳統的雇傭關係或者是傳統的一般的承攬關係很不一樣所以它這中間其實它會有一個過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的一個模糊的地帶所以我們現在的確是在這一個\n雇佣關係跟承攬關係之間我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態這就我講我們之後討論的時候沒有問題我們也希望這個事情可以很大家很理性的然後我們就可以很直接在這個上面大家交換意見好我還是強調我對事不對人所以最後暖心一下\n部長 上禮拜 10月18號 生日快樂好不好 我們一起努力繼續加油 為外送員 為餐廳 為消費者打造良好的外送關係 謝謝謝謝 洪孟凱委員謝謝部長生日快樂蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.452 --> 00:27.271\n好主席謝謝麻煩請洪森漢部長請部長部長好後衛好部長千呼萬喚使出來今天上午您終於有鬆口講是說兩三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本行政版本是吧\n\n00:28.021 --> 00:40.533\n對行政部門的版本希望在三個月內那本席也說今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題不是這兩個禮拜的議題而是已經長達了數年了\n\n00:43.270 --> 01:09.044\n過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題\n\n01:10.004 --> 01:24.879\n这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含刮更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责\n\n01:25.880 --> 01:45.690\n是不是是我們的確認為其實可以有更多規範化空間甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方好那這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工所以遲到總比不到好啦今天願意也說要三個月不過本席提醒\n\n01:46.210 --> 02:15.080\n因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再一拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出\n\n02:16.181 --> 02:29.215\n勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告齁其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實他的修訂他的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來的高\n\n02:31.457 --> 02:53.974\n所以包括他的整个的立法的架构跟立法的技术这件事情我们是非常愿意跟委员来做好好的讨论那尤其是在这个法规的修订上面我自己是秉持这里面绝对没有什么分什么党派的那我觉得能够把这个法规就像委员说的真的是一段时间下来大家终于\n\n02:54.674 --> 03:15.195\n覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣\n\n03:16.676 --> 03:36.515\n今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳动部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳动部的执掌上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里\n\n03:37.668 --> 04:04.657\n所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了那過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本\n\n04:06.001 --> 04:27.843\n我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞啊但我現在越來越相信了真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧\n\n04:29.664 --> 04:47.770\n來部長兩個議題我直接就請教因為上午有看到你有答詢的時候講是說希望薪資的一個保障是外送員所在意的嘛對不對你有講說每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資\n\n04:49.175 --> 05:14.466\n我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限\n\n05:15.746 --> 05:30.147\n那这个上限处理的是平台跟我们期待的就是外送员期待的就是说他至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了\n\n05:31.229 --> 05:55.796\n当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时间对\n\n05:56.596 --> 06:21.923\n每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196明年就196換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊\n\n06:26.306 --> 06:53.638\n這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪我跟委員說當然是實職的服務期間就是實職的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪\n\n06:56.097 --> 06:57.444\n所以是不是就跟\n\n06:59.813 --> 07:25.524\n外界理解又不同了因為你今天上講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題是但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是是部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點\n\n07:27.284 --> 07:54.103\n保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係他是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障\n\n07:55.309 --> 08:15.795\n線型他是以所謂的團體傷害線來cover而且是規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了\n\n08:17.734 --> 08:32.797\n部長你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的\n\n08:33.658 --> 09:01.928\n第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險\n\n09:04.465 --> 09:26.943\n我們會朝向第一個他一定要有傷害保險第二個傷害保險以外那尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題是這我們都理解我們會這樣保障他的安全是用災保所以還要再增加災保對好那另外還有災保保障的時間平台要幫忙付保費好那保障的時間\n\n09:28.607 --> 09:53.072\n總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中\n\n09:54.554 --> 10:17.235\n所以你未來就會變是什麼就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP只要沒有人給我單我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子\n\n10:18.473 --> 10:32.787\n跟委員報告目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費啊對目前部長說請教您是勞動法務司嗎\n\n10:37.762 --> 10:53.207\n保險因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是\n\n10:53.867 --> 11:14.068\n這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛\n\n11:14.488 --> 11:35.816\n跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者\n\n11:36.816 --> 11:48.749\n七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算\n\n11:49.885 --> 12:10.746\n部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不夠到想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外送平台一定要\n\n12:12.661 --> 12:36.356\n對付他不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明第一個\n\n12:38.194 --> 13:02.282\n確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係讓相關的社會保險的規範它跟過去傳統的雇傭關係或者是傳統的一般的承攬關係很不一樣所以它這中間其實它會有一個過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的一個模糊的地帶所以我們現在的確是在這一個\n\n13:03.442 --> 13:24.585\n雇佣關係跟承攬關係之間我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態這就我講我們之後討論的時候沒有問題我們也希望這個事情可以很大家很理性的然後我們就可以很直接在這個上面大家交換意見好我還是強調我對事不對人所以最後暖心一下\n\n13:25.606 --> 13:41.799\n部長上禮拜10月18號生日快樂好不好我們一起努力繼續加油為外送員為餐廳為消費者打造良好的外送關係謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員謝謝部長生日快樂蔡宜宇委員蔡宜宇委員蔡宜宇委員不在徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.452,"end":27.271,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請洪森漢部長請部長部長好 後衛好部長 千呼萬喚使出來今天上午您終於有鬆口講是說兩三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本行政版本 是吧"},{"start":28.021,"end":40.533,"text":"對 行政部門的版本希望在三個月內那本席也說今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題不是這兩個禮拜的議題而是已經長達了數年了"},{"start":43.27,"end":69.044,"text":"過去一直講說外送員專法如果說指引能夠保障的話當然指引但是就是因為有太多的面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含瓜的而外送員的人口數也越來越多非常多的委員今天從上午到現在把各樣態的問題都告知大家大家也都有看到不管是餐廳面臨的問題不管是外送員面臨的問題甚至消費者面臨的問題"},{"start":70.004,"end":84.879,"text":"这些都跟我们现在讨论息息相关也因此我们才会想是说那是不是有一个专法能够含刮更多的面向给予公权力来适时的要求让各自都有权利跟义务应该要负责"},{"start":85.88,"end":105.69,"text":"是不是是我們的確認為其實可以有更多規範化空間甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方好那這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工所以遲到總比不到好啦今天願意也說要三個月不過本席提醒"},{"start":106.21,"end":135.08,"text":"因為今天既然我們的召委已經排案了我們希望是能夠趕快進入到竹條審查的一個流程而如果說行政部門一拖再一拖還是沒有辦法拿出來的話我們也希望在竹條審查的時候能夠針對竹條來做一個比較詳細的一個討論那更是甚至如果說有取得共識的我們就可以先行如果說沒有取得共識送出委員會的時候在草野協商的時候也一定要拿出"},{"start":136.181,"end":149.215,"text":"勞動部的態度這樣可以嗎我跟委員報告齁其實因為我這邊就很誠實的講因為這個法其實他的修訂他的挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來的高"},{"start":151.457,"end":173.974,"text":"所以包括他的整个的立法的架构跟立法的技术这件事情我们是非常愿意跟委员来做好好的讨论那尤其是在这个法规的修订上面我自己是秉持这里面绝对没有什么分什么党派的那我觉得能够把这个法规就像委员说的真的是一段时间下来大家终于"},{"start":174.674,"end":195.195,"text":"覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段把它給修得好然後讓討論的空間能夠拉大我覺得這是我們對於這個法規我覺得最基本的態度是這樣子的所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論那尤其因為剛剛就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到它涉及到的行政部門的面向真的很廣"},{"start":196.676,"end":216.515,"text":"今天如果没有其他部会的协助的话比方说平台对消费者平台对商家的这些业务上面的事情要劳动部来处理挑战也非常大就算你要我做我可能也做不好因为这在劳动部的执掌上面所以这里面的部会分工怎么处理的好我认为是未来这个法能不能运作的好的最关键的点会是在这里"},{"start":217.668,"end":244.657,"text":"所以我總結一句因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間了那過去為什麼我們一而再再而三希望push有所謂的行政院版本的外送原專法出來遲遲沒有辦法出來第十屆第九屆就有討論了當時執政黨國會多數過半想推就可以推沒有到現在今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本"},{"start":246.001,"end":267.843,"text":"我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞啊但我現在越來越相信了真的是大罷免大烙賽之後才能夠回復正常因為回復正常才能夠真的公開理性的來討論是說我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群照顧到的民眾來好好的研究怎麼樣來照顧"},{"start":269.664,"end":287.77,"text":"來部長兩個議題我直接就請教因為上午有看到你有答詢的時候講是說希望薪資的一個保障是外送員所在意的嘛對不對你有講說每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資"},{"start":289.175,"end":314.466,"text":"我沒有理解錯誤吧因為這個是不是扣運費我剛剛看到的媒體的新聞報導直接講平台單筆希望未來的薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後要高於最低工資薪資不是什麼扣運費我沒有說扣運費你的原文是什麼你的意思是什麼應該是說接下來交通部他會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限"},{"start":315.746,"end":330.147,"text":"那这个上限处理的是平台跟我们期待的就是外送员期待的就是说他至少他的薪资保障因为其实我们看到像7月的时候也有平台业者说要调整外送员的报酬结果计算之后每单就减少了"},{"start":331.229,"end":355.796,"text":"当时劳动部也讲是说应该要维持一定的一个收入所以说我们最低的薪资到底会定在什么我跟委员说明因为这里面会有好几个费用的项目所以我们比较是用综合性的报酬然后来看待这件事情因为你只管他一项他可以涨出其他项目所以综合性的报酬认为每一单是要高于最低工资的时间对"},{"start":356.596,"end":381.923,"text":"每一單對每一單所以綜合性的報酬他每一單未來我們的院版本裡面是會有外送員會高於現在的時薪190元以上明年就是196明年就196換算啦這是換算我的意思是說因為他會涉及到他跑的每一單他可能一個小時接兩單那就是他要保證他他可以賺到300多塊"},{"start":386.306,"end":413.638,"text":"這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛我跟你講是每一單所以我剛剛一直在確認你未來的願板是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪我跟委員說當然是實職的服務期間就是實職的服務期間然後每一單然後他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪"},{"start":416.097,"end":417.444,"text":"所以是不是就跟"},{"start":419.813,"end":445.524,"text":"外界理解又不同了因為你今天上講其實說實在話啦我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題是但是那個標題並不是扣運價並不是是是部長所以說在這是為什麼我們今天你講你的然後我理解我的然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的會有不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛如果有版本的話我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了第二點"},{"start":447.284,"end":474.103,"text":"保險的一個部分也是大家最關心的因為就說這個之前我講嘛要他們又不算是傳統的雇傭關係又不算是派遣關係也因此是不是在折衷要找一個第三種關係但不管怎麼樣什麼關係他是實質外送員有跟平台有一定的程度的互相的合作工作那外送員也應該要有一定的程度的一個保險保障"},{"start":475.309,"end":495.795,"text":"線型他是以所謂的團體傷害線來cover而且是規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover的時間那外送員一直講是說其實接單上跟接單下你才有保險的時間但是我上線跟下線的時候我其實就已經開始工作了"},{"start":497.734,"end":512.797,"text":"部長你的一個方向你覺得我們認為第一個我們認為要有商業保險商業保險就是基本的就不用多說是商業保險還是要有勞工保險我先講讓我說明第一個是要商業保險這是一定要的"},{"start":513.658,"end":541.928,"text":"第二個因為外送員會特別在意的事情是治安安全的問題所以我們認為其實僱主有必要要為外送員在這個尤其是職災保險的部分要幫忙來做保費的給付職災保險對那就是連包含到我們所謂的勞保囉災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情對那我們認為主要外送員但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險"},{"start":544.465,"end":566.943,"text":"我們會朝向第一個他一定要有傷害保險第二個傷害保險以外那尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題是這我們都理解我們會這樣保障他的安全是用災保所以還要再增加災保對好那另外還有災保保障的時間平台要幫忙付保費好那保障的時間"},{"start":568.607,"end":593.072,"text":"總是不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說手握方向盤開車才算是在工作那只要手沒有握方向盤的話就不算工作那就要休息那一樣現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間是要他要接到單才算是投保時間那接完單他送完之後又不算投保時間可是他持續在上線中"},{"start":594.554,"end":617.235,"text":"所以你未來就會變是什麼 就是我在上線的這個過程裡面我開啟了APP 只要沒有人給我單 我沒有接單的時候我就是要自己想辦法 自己要屈胸避疾啊因為被撞到不能被保險但是接了單之後 送單的過程有保險範圍那送完單之後 我要再等下一單的中間你又要屈胸避疾啊現行狀況是這樣子"},{"start":618.473,"end":632.787,"text":"跟委員報告 目前就是平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保那如果說他勞動關係加保就他自己要付費啊對目前部長說請教您是勞動法務司嗎"},{"start":637.762,"end":653.207,"text":"保險 因為我說的事情是我們認為部長講搖頭然後結果我們的這個美女司長一直在點頭我們認為應該要有災保的保障那我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出是"},{"start":653.867,"end":674.068,"text":"這個我已經確認了我剛講是下一個就保險的期間現行我們了解的狀況是不是我剛講的他是接單的過程才有算他的保險因為平台也沒有保險平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保費簽這個保單然後提供給他的外送員嘛"},{"start":674.488,"end":695.816,"text":"跟我們報告目前我們在職業公會加保他就是有工作的時候他就去加保是但他現在認定的工作就是說你接單才算工作不是就是說他不一定是接這個單他只要是外送員的工作的話他就可以去職業公會我們理解是這樣嘛但現在我就講是說可能我們現在有幾大平台業者"},{"start":696.816,"end":708.749,"text":"七大八大對不對但其中一個最大的那個平台業者他現在給外送員的狀況就是你接單才算是保險的範圍但你上線的時候都還不算"},{"start":709.885,"end":730.746,"text":"部長的意思是說所以我現在才沒關係來我提供這樣子也讓你們知道說實際的狀況那未來在討論竹條的時候我們針對過去有想不夠到想不周全想不周到的地方我們來補齊我沒有說要一定是外送平台一定要"},{"start":732.661,"end":756.356,"text":"對付他不可但就如同我今天早上講的現在的狀況是一強三弱消費者外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢外送平台相對強勢那我們希望是透過我們的一個調和頂賴以及讓大家都能夠充分責任權利之後四足鼎立大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧我跟委員說明第一個"},{"start":758.194,"end":782.282,"text":"確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係讓相關的社會保險的規範它跟過去傳統的雇傭關係或者是傳統的一般的承攬關係很不一樣所以它這中間其實它會有一個過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的一個模糊的地帶所以我們現在的確是在這一個"},{"start":783.442,"end":804.585,"text":"雇佣關係跟承攬關係之間我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態這就我講我們之後討論的時候沒有問題我們也希望這個事情可以很大家很理性的然後我們就可以很直接在這個上面大家交換意見好我還是強調我對事不對人所以最後暖心一下"},{"start":805.606,"end":821.799,"text":"部長 上禮拜 10月18號 生日快樂好不好 我們一起努力繼續加油 為外送員 為餐廳 為消費者打造良好的外送關係 謝謝謝謝 洪孟凱委員謝謝部長生日快樂蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員 蔡宜宇委員不在徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員 徐欣盈委員不在"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1334,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（14時10分）謝謝主席，麻煩請洪申翰部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，千呼萬喚始出來，今天上午您終於有鬆口說兩、三個月內可以提出外送員專法的勞動部版本、行政院版本，是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：對，行政部門的版本，希望在三個月內。"],["洪委員孟楷：希望在三個月內？本席也說，今天上午我在提案說明的時候就講這個議題真的不是這兩天的議題，不是這兩個禮拜的議題，而是已經長達數年了，過去一直說外送員專法，如果指引能夠保障的話，當然就照指引，但就是因為有太多面向的問題是指引沒有辦法含括的，而外送員的人口數也越來越多，今天從上午到現在，非常多的委員把各樣態的問題都告知大家，大家也都有看到，不管是餐廳面臨的問題、不管是外送員面臨的問題，甚至消費者面臨的問題，這些都跟我們現在的討論息息相關。也因此，我們才會講是不是有一個專法能夠含括更多的面向，給予公權力來適時的要求，讓各自都有權利跟義務要負責，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們的確認為其實有更多可以規範化的空間，甚至有更多政策跟法規工具可以使用，因為這裡面確實涉及到多元的利害相關方，這也是為什麼其實很需要跨部會的分工來處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以遲到總比不到好啦！今天願意，也說要三個月內提出，不過本席要提醒，今天既然召委已經排案了，我們希望能夠趕快進入到逐條審查的流程，但如果行政部門一拖再拖，還是沒有辦法拿出來的話，我們也希望在逐條審查的時候，能夠針對逐條來做一個比較詳細的討論，甚至，如果有取得共識的，我們就可以先行，而沒有取得共識的部分，送出委員會在朝野協商的時候，也一定要拿出勞動部的態度，這樣可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員報告，我這邊就很誠實地講，因為這個法的修訂，挑戰的確比過去傳統的勞動法規來得高，包括它整個立法的架構跟立法的技術，這件事情我們非常願意跟委員來做好好的討論，尤其是在這個法規的修訂上面，我自己是秉持這裡面絕對沒有分什麼黨派，我覺得能夠把這個法規……就像委員說的，一段時間下來，大家終於覺得也可以進入到一個好好討論的階段，把它給修得好，讓討論的空間能夠拉大，我覺得這是我們對於這個法規最基本的態度。","所以我們希望有機會可以好好的討論，尤其就像剛剛前面幾個委員都講到，它涉及到行政部門的面向真的很廣，今天如果沒有其他部會協助的話，比方平台對消費者、平台對商家這些業務上面的事情，要勞動部來處理，挑戰也非常大，就算你要我做，我可能也做不好，因為這在勞動部的職掌上面，所以這裡面的部會分工要怎麼處理得好，我認為是未來這個法能不能運作好的最關鍵的點會是在這裡。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我總結一句，因為部長新人上任也已經快一年的時間，過去為什麼我們一而再、再而三希望push行政院版本的外送員專法出來？但遲遲沒有辦法出來，第9屆、第10屆就有討論，當時執政黨國會多數過半，想推就可以推，沒有。到今年上半年度也沒有看到任何的版本，我自己很不喜歡用這個名詞，但我現在越來越相信，真的是「大罷免大烙賽」之後，才能夠回復正常，因為回復正常才能夠真的公開、理性地討論我們是不是要為現在還沒有照顧到的族群、照顧到的民眾好好的研究，看要怎麼樣來照顧。","部長，我直接請教您兩個議題，因為上午有看到您在答詢的時候說希望薪資的保障，是外送員所在意的，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，是報酬。"],["洪委員孟楷：你有講每一單平台單筆扣運費應該要高於最低工資薪資，我沒有理解錯誤吧？"],["洪部長申翰：不是扣運費……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是我剛剛看到的媒體新聞報導，它直接講希望未來薪資最低的保障是平台單筆扣運費之後，要高於最低工資薪資。"],["洪部長申翰：不是什麼扣運費，我沒有說扣運費。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你的原文是什麼？你的意思是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說，接下來交通部會透過公路法來訂定運價的上限，這個上限處理的是平台跟消費者收……"],["洪委員孟楷：外送員期待的是他的薪資保障。因為我們看到像7月的時候，也有平台業者說要調整外送員的報酬，結果計算之後，每單就減少了，當時勞動部也說應該要維持一定的收入。"],["洪部長申翰：對……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們最低的薪資到底會定在哪邊？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，因為這裡面會有好幾個費用的項目，所以我們比較是用綜合性的報酬來看待這件事情，因為你只管它一項，它可以長出其他項目……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以是綜合性的報酬，認為每一單是要高於最低工資的時薪。"],["洪部長申翰：對，至少。"],["洪委員孟楷：每一單？"],["洪部長申翰：對，每一單。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以綜合性的報酬，他的每一單在未來我們的院版本裡面，會有外送員高於現在的時薪190元以上？"],["洪部長申翰：明年就是196。"],["洪委員孟楷：明年就196？"],["洪部長申翰：換算，這是換算，我的意思是因為會涉及到他跑的……"],["洪委員孟楷：每一單，他可能一個小時接兩單，那就是要保證他可以賺到三百多塊？你看，這就是你們沒有講清楚的地方，也是上午很多人訝異的地方嘛！你講的是每一單，所以我剛剛一直在確認，你未來的院版是每一單就會有高於最低工資的時薪？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說，當然是實質的服務期間，在實質的服務期間，然後每一單，他的報酬要高於最低工資的時薪。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是不是就跟外界理解不同了？因為你今天上午講的，其實我說實在話啦！"],["洪部長申翰：我剛剛有看到有媒體寫那個標題，但是那個標題並不是扣運價，並不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長，所以這也是為什麼今天你講你的，然後我理解我的，然後可能有一般民眾看到又理解他的，會有這種不同就是因為現在還沒有版本嘛，如果有版本的話，我們直接白紙黑字就看得很清楚了。第二點，保險的部分也是大家最關心的，這個之前我們講，他們又不算是傳統的僱傭關係，又不算是派遣關係，也因此是不是要折衷找第三種關係？但不管怎麼樣，什麼關係，實質上外送員跟平台有一定程度互相的合作工作，外送員也應該要有一定程度的保險保障。現行他是以所謂的團體傷害險來cover，而且規範的時間是接單上跟接單下才有cover時間，而外送員一直講，接單上跟接單下才有保險的時間，但是我上線跟下線的時候，我其實就已經開始工作了。部長，你覺得你的方向為何？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，我們認為要有商業保險，商業保險是基本的，這不用多說。"],["洪委員孟楷：是商業保險，還是要有勞工保險？"],["洪部長申翰：先讓我說明，第一個是要商業保險，這是一定要的；第二個，因為外送員會特別在意的事情是職安安全的問題，所以我們認為其實雇主有必要為外送員，尤其是職災保險的部分，要幫忙做保費的給付。"],["洪委員孟楷：職災保險？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那就是包含到我們所謂的勞保囉？"],["洪部長申翰：災保跟勞保不是一樣的事情。我們認為，因為主要外送……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是因為現在有的商業保險提供的是所謂的第三責任險以及團體傷害險，所以現在這個是不足的……"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，我們會朝向他一定要有商業保險；第二個，商業保險以外，尤其是外送員會特別在意的是安全上的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這個我們都理解，所以我們就想要怎樣保障他的安全。"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們是用災保。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以還要再增加災保？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，另外還有保障的時間……"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為平台要幫忙付保費。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那保障的時間呢？總不能像以前有勞動部長講出金句說：手握方向盤開車才算是在工作，只要手沒有握方向盤的話，就不算工作，那就要休息。一樣的，現在比較荒謬的地方是他上線的時候還不算在投保時間，是他要接到單才算是投保時間，而接完單送完之後又不算投保時間，可是他持續在上線中。所以未來就會變成什麼？就是我在上線的過程開啟了app，但只要沒有人給我單，我沒有接單的時候，我就是要自己想辦法趨吉避凶，因為被撞到不能被保險。但是接了單之後，送單的過程有保險範圍，可是送完單之後，當我要再等下一單的中間，我又要趨吉避凶，現行狀況是這樣子。"],["陳司長美女：跟委員報告，目前平台外送員都可以依照他的勞動關係來加保，如果說他……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，依勞動關係加保，就是他自己要付費啊！"],["陳司長美女：對、對，目前。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，部長說……"],["陳司長美女：不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：對不起，請教您是？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要說的……"],["洪委員孟楷：請教您是勞動保險司嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，委員，我說的事情是我們認為……"],["洪委員孟楷：誰講的才算？部長搖頭，結果我們的美女司長一直在點頭？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為應該要有災保的保障，我認為這個災保的保費應該要由平台來出。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這個我已經確認了，我剛剛講的是下一個問題，保險的期間，就現行我們了解的狀況，是不是如我剛剛講的，他是接單的過程才有算他的保險，因為平台也沒有保險，平台也是跟外面的保險公司簽這個保單，然後提供給他的外送員嘛！"],["陳司長美女：目前我們在職業工會加保，他就是有工作的時候就去加保。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但他現在認定的就是你接單才算工作。"],["陳司長美女：不是，他不一定是接這個單，他只要是送外送員的工作的話，他就可以去參加職業工會。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我們理解是這樣嘛，但現在我是講，可能我們現在有七大還八大平台業者，對不對？但現在其中最大的平台業者給外送員的狀況，就是你接單才算是保險的範圍，但上線的時候都還不算。"],["陳司長美女：部長的意思是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我現在才……","不是，沒關係，來，我提供這樣子的資訊，也讓你們知道實際的狀況，未來在討論逐條的時候，我們針對過去想的不夠周全、不夠周到的地方來補齊……"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我沒有說一定要是外送平台，一定要對付它不可，但就如同我今天早上講的，現在狀況是一強三弱，消費者、外送員跟餐廳是相對弱勢；外送平台相對強勢，而我們希望透過我們的調和鼎鼐，讓大家都能夠充分責任權力之後四足鼎立，大家都能夠獲得一定的權益跟保障以及照顧。"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，確實因為外送員或外送平台很特別的勞動關係，讓相關社會保險的規範，它跟過去傳統的僱傭關係，或者是傳統的、一般的承攬關係很不一樣，所以這中間其實會有過去大家比較不那麼熟悉的模糊地帶。因此現在的確是在僱傭關係跟承攬關係之間，我們要去摸索出一套適用於這個工作型態該有的社會保險的狀態……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，這就我講的，我們之後討論的時候針對這個議題好好來研究，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有問題，我們也希望大家可以很理性針對這個事情，然後很直接在上面交換意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我還是強調我對事不對人。","最後暖心一下，部長，上禮拜10月18號生日快樂，好不好？我們一起努力，繼續加油，為外送員、為餐廳、為消費者打造良好的外送關係，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：部長生日快樂。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","張智倫委員、張智倫委員，張智倫委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","涂權吉委員、涂權吉委員，涂權吉委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員盧縣一、委員張智倫、委員林沛祥、委員涂權吉所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","議程","審查「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。","請勞動部說明：","為了保障外送員權益，「勞動部」如何和外送平臺治理主管機關「交通部」合作，就外送平臺納管事除了研訂「整合型外送平臺經營管理指引」，就對於制訂「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」有何看法？"],["委員張智倫書面質詢：","一、外送員報酬最低保障與接單費定價監管問題","現行外送平台報酬機制由業者單方決定，外送員缺乏議價能力與最低保障。部分平台任意調降接單費或更改計價公式，導致外送員收入不穩。","立法院審議中的《外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案》部分條文建議，應比照運輸業設立「接單費核定制度」，由工會與同業公會共同協商報請主管機關核定，並明定「基本費不得低於基本工資的三分之一」，以維護外送員基本生活保障。","茲提問如下：","1.勞動部是否支持建立「最低接單費」或「報酬底線」制度？對於草案中規定「基本費不得低於基本工資三分之一」的建議，是否已有政策立場與影響評估？","2.政府是否有計畫比照《公路法》運價模式，讓外送員工會與同業公會共同擬訂費率並報請主管機關核定？","3.若外送平台未提供合理報酬、或擅自調降接單費率，政府有無具體裁處或申訴機制？是否考慮納入行政裁罰範圍？","二、演算法決策與停權申訴機制失衡問題","外送平台以演算法決定派單順序與報酬結構，外送員無法得知計算邏輯與演算法調整依據。多起案例顯示，外送員因客訴或評價遭停權，卻無任何預警或救濟管道，導致生計中斷。","目前《外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法》草案建議，主管機關應制定申訴準則，要求平台建立申訴與復權機制，保障外送員免受不當停權或差別對待。","茲提問如下：","1.外送平台是否應揭露派單演算法的主要原則與評分權重？勞動部是否有計畫要求平台揭露接單率、評價計算方式等關鍵指標，以確保公平性？","2.對於外送員因演算法降權或遭停權的案件，勞動部是否將主導訂定「標準化申訴機制」？是否會規範申訴時限與處理程序？","3.平台片面調整派單、停權或獎金規則，是否屬於契約變更行為？主管機關將如何透過契約審查或勞動爭議機制進行監督？","三、社會保險與商業保險納保責任問題","目前多數外送員以「承攬關係」提供服務，無法納入勞保體系。職業災害或意外事故發生時，僅能仰賴平台自設保險方案，保障不足且不具強制力。部分草案建議，應明定外送平台業者即便與外送員非僱傭關係，也須準用《勞工保險條例》與《職業災害保險及保護法》，並為外送員投保商業保險（如團體意外險、第三人責任險），以保障人身安全與勞動風險。","茲提問如下：","1.勞動部對於「平台應為非僱傭關係外送員辦理勞保及職災保險」的草案條文持何立場？是否已有可行配套與行政執行方案？","2.金管會是否考慮與保險業者協調，建立全國統一的「外送員保險基本條款」，確保最低保障水準？","3.外送員跨平台接單且流動性高，勞動部是否規劃建立「外送員登錄平台」或「中央納保系統」，統一管理投保與保險資訊？"],["委員林沛祥書面質詢：","臺灣的外送員人數已經突破15萬人，這不是一個小眾的「新興產業」，這是一個龐大且正在快速擴張的勞動力群體，然而，這15萬名勞工，每天穿梭在車陣中，為臺灣的便利生活服務，但他們自己卻深陷在法律的灰色地帶，成為「數位孤兒」。","過去，勞動部總是試圖用傳統的「僱傭」與「承攬」二分法來界定，但我們都知道，平台業者利用法律的模糊空間，設計出「假承攬、真管理」的制度，他們透過演算法，對外送員進行高度的指揮監督，包括如何取餐、如何送達、穿著什麼制服、使用什麼話術，但卻拒絕承擔任何僱主應負的責任。","勞動部之前提出的「勞動契約認定指導原則」，在實務上根本無法撼動平台業者的優勢地位，結果就是，外送員沒有勞健保、沒有職災保險，沒有加班費、沒有退休金提撥，更沒有最基本的勞動尊嚴。這部專法，就是要終結這種亂象，法案的核心精神，是承認外送員作為「非典型勞動者」的特殊性，並強制平台業者必須承擔起碼的「社會責任」。","本席要針對這部草案的四大核心，請勞動部說明的立場與作為：","一、如何落實十五萬外送員的社會安全網？","外送員每天面對最大的風險就是交通意外，然而，在「假承攬」的架構下，平台業者不必為他們投保勞工保險與職業災害保險，一旦出事，外送員及其家庭就得獨自面對鉅額的醫療費用與生活頓失依靠的慘劇。","為了解決這個問題，本席連署的版本草案第13條明確規定，對於非僱傭關係之外送員，應「準用」勞工保險條例及勞工職業災害保險及保護法，強制平台業者必須為外送員辦理加保，這是在現行「承攬」框架下，為外送員爭取到的最基本保障。","請問勞動部，面對草案第13條的強制納保設計，預計如何建立具體的行政執行機制？","這15萬名「非僱傭」外送員，在現行勞保系統中並無明確的投保單位，勞動部要如何設計申報、稽核與繳費制度，以確保平台業者「準用」勞保條例時，是「玩真的」全面納保，而不是選擇性加保，或又找出新的法律漏洞來規避這項法定的社會責任？","二、如何打破演算法黑箱與片面減薪的剝削？","外送員最痛恨的，就是平台業者「說砍就砍」的「接單費」（報酬），平台業者利用演算法的黑箱，隨時調整計費公式，這個月一單60元，下個月可能就變成40元，外送員完全沒有議價能力，只能被迫接受。","為了解決這種「演算法剝削」，草案第4條提出了一個關鍵性的變革，明定「接單費之標準、計算方法及發放日期」，應由外送平台業同業公會「暨相關之工會」共同擬訂，並且要「報請主管機關核定」，非經核准不得調整。","同時，草案第4條第3項更明定，接單費應包含基本費、里程費、等待費等，且「基本費不得低於基本工資之三分之一」，這就是為外送員的勞動價值，訂下一個法定的樓地板。","請問勞動部，草案第4條賦予了勞動部「核定」外送費率的關鍵權力，未來若本法通過，勞動部將如何建立一個透明、公正、且能平衡勞資雙方利益的「費率審議機制」？","又要如何確保在外送員工會力量相對薄弱、整合困難的現況下，這個「共同擬訂」的過程，不會被強勢的平台業者同業公會所主導？勞動部將依據什麼標準來「核定」一個公平的費率？","三、如何制止平台業者「任意停權」的數位極權？","對外送員來說，比減薪更可怕的，叫做「停權」，平台業者僅憑消費者單方面的客訴，甚至不需要查證，就可以透過系統將外送員「立即停權」，斷絕其生計，這等於是數位時代的「任意解僱」，外送員沒有申訴管道，更沒有救濟機會。","草案第7條規定，平台業者應建立申訴制度，受理外送員不服「停權處分」之申訴，並且在第10條明定，即便是非僱傭關係，平台業者要終止契約，也必須在「三十日前預告」，並應發給「經濟補償」。","請問勞動部，草案第7條授權中央主管機關（勞動部）訂定申訴相關準則，勞動部將如何設計這套「停權申訴準則」？","如何確保這個申訴機制是具備獨立性與公正性的，而不是讓平台業者「球員兼裁判」？","對於草案第10條所提的「經濟補償」，勞動部認為應如何計算標準，才能實質保障被平台片面終止契約的外送員？","四、如何確保外送員在惡劣天氣下的「生命權」？","每當颱風天、暴雨日，政府宣布停止上班上課，卻是外送平台訂單最多的時候，外送員為了生計，被迫在狂風暴雨中冒險外送，這簡直是用生命在換取微薄的報酬。","草案第14條明確規定：「因天然災害宣布停止上班，應停止從事外送服務」，平台業者必須停止營業，並通知外送員，若平台業者違反規定，且導致外送員在執行服務過程中死亡，草案第20條更訂有加重處罰，最高可處100萬元罰鍰。","此外，草案第17條也強制平台業者必須為外送員投保足額的「人身保險及財產保險」，附表更明訂了團體傷害保險（死亡/失能）最低300萬、強制險、第三人責任險等具體額度。","請問勞動部，對於草案第14條的「天災停業令」與第17條的「強制商業保險」，勞動部在實務上要如何落實「即時勞檢」？","勞動部要如何確保在颱風天當下，平台業者是真的關閉了系統，而不是陽奉陰違？","又要如何建立一個常態性的稽查機制，去核對那15萬名外送員，每一位都真的在保險名單上，且保額是足夠的？","這部專法是為15萬外送員爭取勞動人權的具體行動，它提供了明確的法律工具，去處理保險、薪資、申訴與安全這四大核心問題。","本席嚴正呼籲勞動部，不要再以「研議中」、「需凝聚社會共識」來拖延，外送員的職災、外送員的血汗，每一天都在發生，請具體承諾，勞動部將全力支持這部專法的精神，並立即開始研擬相關的執法配套措施，還給這15萬名勞工應有的保障。"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","【放寬育嬰留職停薪至孫子女】","1.立法院民國114年7月22日三讀修正通過「公務人員任用法第36條之1條文」，並通過一項附帶決議，要求銓敘部應於3個月內刪修公務人員留職停薪辦法規定，放寬公務人員申請育嬰孫假的留職停薪事由，以減輕家庭育兒負擔。而本黨委員翁曉玲也提出修法版本，初衷是希望在公務人員任用法增訂「育孫假」。而在今年8月底，銓敘部也預告修正「公務人員留職停薪辦法」，明訂各機關不得拒絕育孫留職停薪的申請，並刪除申請育孫留職停薪只能以孫子女無法受雙親適當養育或有特殊事由者為限的規定，盼使公務員安心生養，此舉也是為了因應少子女化及高齡化時代來臨，提供一個更優質的育兒育嬰環境。","2.反觀受雇勞工在實務上，育嬰留職停薪、津貼僅「父母」能夠請領，即便祖父母作為實質照顧者，也擁有孫子女監護權，即便「育嬰留職停薪」獲公司首肯，但是向勞動部勞工保險局申請「育嬰留職停薪津貼」，卻遭到拒絕。因應上述情況，根據今年1月報載勞動部研議放寬，預計在今年農曆年後召集專家學者、相關團體進行討論。","3.本席請就教勞動部：(1)該議題貴部研議概況如何？相關專家學者、團體的意見為何？(2)假若放寬「育嬰留職停薪」、「育嬰留職停薪津貼」資格，惠及受雇勞工大約占總體受雇勞工人數多少？是否有做相關政策影響評估？","4.本席擬具「性別平等工作法第十六條」、「就業保險法第十一條、第十九之二條」修正草案如下，現在正在連署中，本席版本放寬受僱者任職滿六個月後，於每一孫子女滿三歲前，得申請育嬰留職停薪，同時申請請領「育嬰留職停薪津貼」，但每一孫子女合計最長發給三個月，完整版本文字如下，懇請貴部於兩週內給本席書面意見答覆。","【監督各縣市政府落實「違反性別平等工作法事件裁罰基準」】","1.長榮航空孫姓空服員猝死乙事，突顯航空產業從業人員請假難的問題，前空服員職業工會秘書長林佳瑋指出，過去一年，長榮航空違反性別平等工作法遭裁罰件數多達七件，但是地方縣市政府都是以最低罰鍰金額裁罰。","2.但是根據地方政府的裁罰基準，第一次違規處二萬元以上四萬元以下罰鍰、第二次違規處五萬元以上九萬元以下罰鍰，往上疊加、以此類推。","3.近年來，有關「促進性別工作平等」、「懷孕婦女的母性保護」，「創造育嬰育兒的友善工作環境」、等等因應少子化危機的政策措施，是勞動部、衛福部等政府機關近年來大力推展的重要政策，但是長榮航空在短短時間內被裁罰七件有關違反性平法之情事，地方政府沒有按照自己訂定出來裁罰基準對公司裁罰，以達到嚇阻繼續違法的效果，使得以上重大政策的推展受到阻礙。","4.既然「促進性別工作平等」、「懷孕婦女的母性保護」，「創造育嬰育兒的友善工作環境」等等等，是當下我們國家重大的政策推動方向，針對地方政府有無落實「處理違反性別平等工作法事件裁罰基準」，本席建議勞動部應該要積極督促執行，並定期考核各縣市政府的落實情況。"],["主席：現在作以下決議：一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。三、外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案等6案，另擇期繼續審查。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝，大家辛苦了。","散會（14時25分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-6","speakers":["廖偉翔","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","王育敏","王鴻薇","楊瓊瓔","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","林淑芬","陳瑩","黃國昌","林國成","李坤城","張啓楷","許宇甄","黃捷","鍾佳濱","楊曜","林楚茵","吳思瑤","劉建國","盧縣一","張智倫","林沛祥","涂權吉"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；二、台灣民眾\n黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送\n平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案；四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人\n員權益保障法草案」案；五、委員王鴻薇等20 人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草\n案」案；六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148801_00003"}}}