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\"資助這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 656.527, \"end\": 656.547, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 656.547, \"end\": 656.567, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 656.567, \"end\": 656.587, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 656.587, \"end\": 656.607, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 656.607, \"end\": 656.687, \"score\": 0.438}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 656.687, \"end\": 656.707, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 656.707, \"end\": 656.767, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 656.767, \"end\": 656.787, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 656.787, \"end\": 656.807, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 656.807, \"end\": 656.827, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", 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\"end\": 658.248, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 658.248, \"end\": 658.268, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 658.268, \"end\": 658.288, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 658.288, \"end\": 658.408, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 658.408, \"end\": 658.428, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 658.428, \"end\": 658.528, \"score\": 0.223}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 658.528, \"end\": 658.548, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 658.548, \"end\": 658.948, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 658.948, \"end\": 658.968, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"艘\", \"start\": 658.968, \"end\": 659.008, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 659.008, \"end\": 659.028, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 659.028, \"end\": 659.048, \"score\": 0.0}, 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{\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"週\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1023.42, \"end\": 1023.44, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1023.44, \"end\": 1023.46, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1023.46, \"end\": 1023.48, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,780 --> 00:00:04,620\n是馬偉好部長好部長今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億\n\n2\n00:00:21,658 --> 00:00:50,075\n漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛\n\n3\n00:00:51,548 --> 00:01:15,142\n我是不是先請空軍委員好我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經\n\n4\n00:01:15,942 --> 00:01:35,304\n非常嚴重的這個落後那在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促督管我們的進度那在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位\n\n5\n00:01:35,945 --> 00:02:01,199\n那我們也實際去場裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個惡霧戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在\n\n6\n00:02:02,099 --> 00:02:26,868\n它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中\n\n7\n00:02:27,768 --> 00:02:51,393\n那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要存儲交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險\n\n8\n00:02:52,918 --> 00:02:58,564\n所以其實蔡部長剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出場儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的喔因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的\n\n9\n00:03:14,702 --> 00:03:30,031\n所以今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等\n\n10\n00:03:31,171 --> 00:03:50,421\n這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在3月跟6月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到4個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的\n\n11\n00:03:51,861 --> 00:04:04,491\n包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工所以以前沒有嗎這個是陸陸續續因為\n\n12\n00:04:07,714 --> 00:04:30,919\n他在簽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的啊那你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是\n\n13\n00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:43,604\n那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎\n\n14\n00:04:46,389 --> 00:05:13,546\n這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛對不對\n\n15\n00:05:16,153 --> 00:05:30,703\n到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回嘛這個主席長是不是有要說明\n\n16\n00:05:40,959 --> 00:06:05,597\n委員好我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範在看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定\n\n17\n00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:24,541\n以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也定頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定\n\n18\n00:06:25,382 --> 00:06:42,579\n在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席\n\n19\n00:06:43,220 --> 00:07:05,583\n另外其實你的國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊\n\n20\n00:07:06,704 --> 00:07:14,706\n那因為我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的\n\n21\n00:07:35,785 --> 00:07:45,549\n那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程\n\n22\n00:07:53,692 --> 00:08:12,147\n所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙\n\n23\n00:08:17,006 --> 00:08:32,898\n報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備準備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的\n\n24\n00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:41,644\n邊縣還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用編特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年\n\n25\n00:09:05,180 --> 00:09:22,488\n就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行\n\n26\n00:09:24,389 --> 00:09:51,094\n你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算一千多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的紀律這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是\n\n27\n00:09:54,195 --> 00:10:08,325\n部長我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的\n\n28\n00:10:10,768 --> 00:10:25,395\n所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎\n\n29\n00:10:36,702 --> 00:10:55,368\n他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款\n\n30\n00:10:56,527 --> 00:10:59,128\n資助這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款\n\n31\n00:11:22,817 --> 00:11:37,788\n現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一\n\n32\n00:11:38,789 --> 00:11:41,251\n如果是這樣看的話台船一天要罰1930萬這跟現在民間的商船跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船可是跟剛剛的站立是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來如果\n\n33\n00:12:00,087 --> 00:12:02,508\n193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪\n\n34\n00:12:22,194 --> 00:12:24,096\n就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久\n\n35\n00:12:37,029 --> 00:12:45,775\n可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們他非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰他罰一年兩年對他來說他明年還是轉虧為盈啊\n\n36\n00:13:02,525 --> 00:13:30,163\n是報委很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來定定出來這個\n\n37\n00:13:31,344 --> 00:13:34,968\n雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部都說這個\n\n38\n00:13:55,967 --> 00:14:00,088\n節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把它伐到它的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦它到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果它必須要做非常大的變動的時候它甚至不是原型艦你後續艦都已經是重新建造所以這個是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來\n\n39\n00:14:24,716 --> 00:14:36,188\n也是一樣希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到\n\n40\n00:14:37,165 --> 00:14:55,264\n所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成\n\n41\n00:14:56,485 --> 00:14:58,827\n部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎\n\n42\n00:15:16,141 --> 00:15:20,405\n如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的一個態度到時候幫我們做認證他的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對\n\n43\n00:15:41,641 --> 00:16:05,793\n軍購也好我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館\n\n44\n00:16:09,295 --> 00:16:10,696\n他從設計變更他罰了300萬可是又多給了8000萬甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分你不管是在工程有很多的訓場靶場所有的建築最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的\n\n45\n00:16:27,563 --> 00:16:47,123\n而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好\n\n46\n00:16:47,682 --> 00:17:03,480\n所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3780\t4620\t是 馬偉好部長好 部長今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億\n21658\t50075\t漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛\n51548\t75142\t我是不是先請空軍委員好 我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經\n75942\t95304\t非常嚴重的這個落後那在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促督管我們的進度那在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位\n95945\t121199\t那我們也實際去場裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個惡霧戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在\n122099\t146868\t它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中\n147768\t171393\t那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要存儲交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險\n172918\t178564\t所以其實蔡部長剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出場儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的喔因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的\n194702\t210031\t所以今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等\n211171\t230421\t這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在3月跟6月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到4個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的\n231861\t244491\t包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工所以以前沒有嗎這個是陸陸續續 因為\n247714\t270919\t他在簽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的啊那你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是\n275080\t283604\t那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎\n286389\t313546\t這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促 督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛 對不對\n316153\t330703\t到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回嘛這個主席長是不是有要說明\n340959\t365597\t委員好 我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範在看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定\n369600\t384541\t以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也定頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定\n385382\t402579\t在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席\n403220\t425583\t另外其實你的國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊\n426704\t434706\t那因為我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的\n455785\t465549\t那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程\n473692\t492147\t所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙\n497006\t512898\t報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備準備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的\n515280\t521644\t邊縣還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用編特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年\n545180\t562488\t就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行\n564389\t591094\t你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算一千多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的紀律這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是\n594195\t608325\t部長 我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的\n610768\t625395\t所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎\n636702\t655368\t他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款\n656527\t659128\t資助這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款\n682817\t697788\t現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一\n698789\t701251\t如果是這樣看的話 台船一天要罰1930萬這跟現在民間的商船 跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船 可是跟剛剛的站立是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來 如果\n720087\t722508\t193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪\n742194\t744096\t就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久\n757029\t765775\t可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們他非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰他罰一年兩年對他來說他明年還是轉虧為盈啊\n782525\t810163\t是 報委很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來定定出來這個\n811344\t814968\t雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部都說這個\n835967\t840088\t節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把它伐到它的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦它到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果它必須要做非常大的變動的時候它甚至不是原型艦你後續艦都已經是重新建造所以這個是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來\n864716\t876188\t也是一樣希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到\n877165\t895264\t所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成\n896485\t898827\t部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎\n916141\t920405\t如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的一個態度到時候幫我們做認證他的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對\n941641\t965793\t軍購也好我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館\n969295\t970696\t他從設計變更 他罰了300萬 可是又多給了8000萬甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分 你不管是在工程有很多的訓場 靶場所有的建築 最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的\n987563\t1007123\t而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好\n1007682\t1023480\t所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝\n","txt":"是 馬偉好部長好 部長今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億\n漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛\n我是不是先請空軍委員好 我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經\n非常嚴重的這個落後那在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促督管我們的進度那在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位\n那我們也實際去場裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個惡霧戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在\n它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中\n那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要存儲交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險\n所以其實蔡部長剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出場儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的喔因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的\n所以今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等\n這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在3月跟6月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到4個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的\n包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工所以以前沒有嗎這個是陸陸續續 因為\n他在簽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的啊那你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是\n那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎\n這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促 督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛 對不對\n到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回嘛這個主席長是不是有要說明\n委員好 我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範在看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定\n以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也定頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定\n在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席\n另外其實你的國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊\n那因為我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的\n那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程\n所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙\n報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備準備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的\n邊縣還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用編特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年\n就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行\n你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算一千多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的紀律這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是\n部長 我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的\n所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎\n他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款\n資助這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款\n現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一\n如果是這樣看的話 台船一天要罰1930萬這跟現在民間的商船 跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船 可是跟剛剛的站立是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來 如果\n193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪\n就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久\n可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們他非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰他罰一年兩年對他來說他明年還是轉虧為盈啊\n是 報委很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來定定出來這個\n雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部都說這個\n節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把它伐到它的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦它到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果它必須要做非常大的變動的時候它甚至不是原型艦你後續艦都已經是重新建造所以這個是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來\n也是一樣希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到\n所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成\n部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎\n如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的一個態度到時候幫我們做認證他的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對\n軍購也好我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館\n他從設計變更 他罰了300萬 可是又多給了8000萬甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分 你不管是在工程有很多的訓場 靶場所有的建築 最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的\n而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好\n所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.780 --> 00:04.620\n是馬偉好部長好部長今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億\n\n00:21.658 --> 00:50.075\n漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛\n\n00:51.548 --> 01:15.142\n我是不是先請空軍委員好我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經\n\n01:15.942 --> 01:35.304\n非常嚴重的這個落後那在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促督管我們的進度那在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位\n\n01:35.945 --> 02:01.199\n那我們也實際去場裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個惡霧戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在\n\n02:02.099 --> 02:26.868\n它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中\n\n02:27.768 --> 02:51.393\n那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要存儲交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險\n\n02:52.918 --> 02:58.564\n所以其實蔡部長剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出場儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的喔因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的\n\n03:14.702 --> 03:30.031\n所以今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等\n\n03:31.171 --> 03:50.421\n這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在3月跟6月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到4個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的\n\n03:51.861 --> 04:04.491\n包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工所以以前沒有嗎這個是陸陸續續因為\n\n04:07.714 --> 04:30.919\n他在簽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的啊那你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是\n\n04:35.080 --> 04:43.604\n那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎\n\n04:46.389 --> 05:13.546\n這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛對不對\n\n05:16.153 --> 05:30.703\n到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回嘛這個主席長是不是有要說明\n\n05:40.959 --> 06:05.597\n委員好我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範在看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定\n\n06:09.600 --> 06:24.541\n以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也定頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定\n\n06:25.382 --> 06:42.579\n在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席\n\n06:43.220 --> 07:05.583\n另外其實你的國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊\n\n07:06.704 --> 07:14.706\n那因為我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的\n\n07:35.785 --> 07:45.549\n那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程\n\n07:53.692 --> 08:12.147\n所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙\n\n08:17.006 --> 08:32.898\n報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備準備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的\n\n08:35.280 --> 08:41.644\n邊縣還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用編特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年\n\n09:05.180 --> 09:22.488\n就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行\n\n09:24.389 --> 09:51.094\n你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算一千多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的紀律這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是\n\n09:54.195 --> 10:08.325\n部長我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的\n\n10:10.768 --> 10:25.395\n所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎\n\n10:36.702 --> 10:55.368\n他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款\n\n10:56.527 --> 10:59.128\n資助這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款\n\n11:22.817 --> 11:37.788\n現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一\n\n11:38.789 --> 11:41.251\n如果是這樣看的話台船一天要罰1930萬這跟現在民間的商船跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船可是跟剛剛的站立是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來如果\n\n12:00.087 --> 12:02.508\n193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪\n\n12:22.194 --> 12:24.096\n就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久\n\n12:37.029 --> 12:45.775\n可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們他非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰他罰一年兩年對他來說他明年還是轉虧為盈啊\n\n13:02.525 --> 13:30.163\n是報委很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來定定出來這個\n\n13:31.344 --> 13:34.968\n雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部都說這個\n\n13:55.967 --> 14:00.088\n節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把它伐到它的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦它到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果它必須要做非常大的變動的時候它甚至不是原型艦你後續艦都已經是重新建造所以這個是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來\n\n14:24.716 --> 14:36.188\n也是一樣希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到\n\n14:37.165 --> 14:55.264\n所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成\n\n14:56.485 --> 14:58.827\n部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎\n\n15:16.141 --> 15:20.405\n如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的一個態度到時候幫我們做認證他的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對\n\n15:41.641 --> 16:05.793\n軍購也好我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館\n\n16:09.295 --> 16:10.696\n他從設計變更他罰了300萬可是又多給了8000萬甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分你不管是在工程有很多的訓場靶場所有的建築最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的\n\n16:27.563 --> 16:47.123\n而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好\n\n16:47.682 --> 17:03.480\n所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.78,"end":4.62,"text":"是 馬偉好部長好 部長今天其實大家關切的面向也很多不過在這還是要請教部長在行政院108年度提出2467億"},{"start":21.658,"end":50.075,"text":"漁園的這個新式戰機採購的特別預算他向美國採購F16V戰機66架期程是從109年到115年那部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數的交付有挑戰性因為最近常常聽到挑戰性不管是船也好飛機也好好像都說有挑戰性那他的意思是什麼會很困難嗎明年全數交付因為明年是最後一年嘛"},{"start":51.548,"end":75.142,"text":"我是不是先請空軍委員好 我是空軍消防長跟委員報告在F16交機的部分這個先前也跟委員做過報告在109年簽約之後在110年到112年這遇到全球的這個新冠肺炎那造成整個供應鏈人力上的一個非常嚴重的一個衝擊所以說在前面的進度的部分已經"},{"start":75.942,"end":95.304,"text":"非常嚴重的這個落後那在後續的部分我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司定期的會議來督促督管我們的進度那在目前最新的進度上面來講的話洛馬公司已經增加人力增加了整個生產線的它的站位"},{"start":95.945,"end":121.199,"text":"那我們也實際去場裡面看了之後他的人力也幾乎是24小時甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的這個狀況那這是第一個人力上面的一個狀況第二個就是在111年之後剛好也遇到了這個惡霧戰爭所以說在軍火上面尤其是在軍火上面林復健的供應上供應鏈也造成很大的一個衝擊所以說在"},{"start":122.099,"end":146.868,"text":"它的下游廠商的部分也有一些供應上的問題那這個部分也慢慢在解決第三個部分跟委員報告就是它這個我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的一個飛機全數位化的所以說在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切的在關注也都陸續在整個陸續在解決當中"},{"start":147.768,"end":171.393,"text":"那最快今年的飛機可以做一個飛試進到整個飛試的這個部分那至於交機完成的部分在原先最早109年規劃是在明年底要存儲交機那個在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過今年年底我們預判他會有10架飛機完成組裝但是要到明年底交機這個確實有非常大的風險"},{"start":172.918,"end":178.564,"text":"所以其實蔡部長剛剛說明了一些現在目前的狀況可是這個不是現在才發生因為今年在3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出場儀式的時候那時候國人其實是滿懷期待的喔因為你們才在3月才舉辦而且6月份的時候還信誓旦旦的"},{"start":194.702,"end":210.031,"text":"所以今年可以完成10架以上全案管制在115年可以接收完畢可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況不管是二五戰爭也好不管是他的下游廠商的零附件的提供也好或者其他的因素他的人力調配等等"},{"start":211.171,"end":230.421,"text":"這個在之前一定都已經存在了可是你在3月跟6月跟全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣所以現在因為只有短短不到4個月你有這樣的一個變化連今年的實價目標也達不到那剛剛提到的像我們公檢會或最後一次公檢會什麼時候召開的"},{"start":231.861,"end":244.491,"text":"包委員在上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看那整個生產線的狀況確實就跟委員報告他有增加人力那日夜間都在趕工所以以前沒有嗎這個是陸陸續續 因為"},{"start":247.714,"end":270.919,"text":"他在簽場之後他的人力的那時候為什麼你們這麼有信心的告訴就是在立法院報告的時候說一定可以完成然後明年一定66架也可以如數的繳期然後今年有10架因為都是你們說的啊那你們其實定期都有這樣的公檢會所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到對不對是"},{"start":275.08,"end":283.604,"text":"那我們預計在這樣的狀況底下因為明年最後一年特別預算結束以後我們至少可以回來幾架有預判嗎"},{"start":286.389,"end":313.546,"text":"這個我們還在跟美方密切的在努力當中剛剛跟委員報告的在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上我們的定期會議都有在督促 督管這個進度蔡委員長為什麼我們現在要提這個部分因為明年特別預算是最後一年我們特別預算是這個條例是有時間限制的它的時程就是五年嘛 對不對"},{"start":316.153,"end":330.703,"text":"到2026年你是通過條例的這是我們特別預算這是法所以這不是說你有什麼特例或沒有特例因為你沒有辦法完成這個可能是第一例因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案然後其他的就會繳回嘛這個主席長是不是有要說明"},{"start":340.959,"end":365.597,"text":"委員好 我是主席局局長針對於特別預算之執行在行政院的各機關單位預算執行要點第53點裡面有特別提到特別預算之執行除有相關法令規定之外準用本要點的規定那我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第36點有特別提到預算保留的規範在看到預算法第72條也規範了相關預算保留的規定"},{"start":369.6,"end":384.541,"text":"以及我們這個案子是109年到115年當時在109年要執行之前國防部在108年的10月20號也定頒了F16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報罪規定裡面有第三點特別明定"},{"start":385.382,"end":402.579,"text":"在特別預算期間如果說最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話相關預算必須辦理保留所以我們在明年假設如果說真的沒辦法如期完成的話我們會按照前述規定來辦保留你再把相關的資料提供給本席"},{"start":403.22,"end":425.583,"text":"另外其實你的國防部所屬機關軍購案支出捷報注意要點規定裡面是說每年軍購案累計結會而度與美方執行進度值的部分應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備似乎沒有說你騎乘到的時候你是做什麼樣的保留這個部分如果有麻煩提供相關的資訊"},{"start":426.704,"end":434.706,"text":"那因為我們最重要的是在這個部分我們特別預算我們支付至少超過1500億以上了雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更可是當2023年他已經落後的時候我們沒有及時去做這樣的調整發價書的動作所以我們現在已經支付了1500億可是我們到現在連一價都還沒有回來當時我們最重要的"},{"start":455.785,"end":465.549,"text":"那時候說這個特別預算最主要的目的為什麼要這樣編因為因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會見識優勢而且考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程"},{"start":473.692,"end":492.147,"text":"所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素規劃這個籌貨F16型戰機要彌補國軍戰力的間隙那如果照我們這樣算其實你都已經是算好的那現在如果他沒有辦法及時的提供要如何彌補這個戰力的空隙"},{"start":497.006,"end":512.898,"text":"報告委員我們會加強我們的戰備準備那在這個部分就現有的我們分兩個部分來講一個是人力的補充我們一直維持我們的飛行員的邊線是在最高的一個狀況這個在美國的說法不是這樣美國對於我們的"},{"start":515.28,"end":521.644,"text":"邊縣還有我們飛官的人數其實他的說法也不是這樣所以我想你說要提升戰備這不是用口說的如果是這樣那我們當時就不用編特別預算了那當時也不需要訂這樣的期程因為你們當時要這一筆預算的時候明確的告訴我們在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙所以你已經算出來了那他到現在我們也不知道他明年一定沒有辦法給那後年呢到後年呢是要兩年五年還是要十年"},{"start":545.18,"end":562.488,"text":"就跟潛艦一樣所以這個部分我們希望可以提出更具體的一個戰利空隙的這個一個說明報告以利你在後面你即使要保留不然甚至你都可能應該要現況結案然後以後的年度再去用公開預算去執行"},{"start":564.389,"end":591.094,"text":"你才不會亂了我們所有特別預算因為你都說很重要結果到時候都執行不了我們現在特別預算一千多億是兩年要執行完成如果你有一個先例那以後是不是都可以這樣就打壞了我們的那個預算的紀律這我們在這裡先提出來另外我們接下來探討的是我們海昆號的這個部分台船原定11月交建的任務也是說有相當大的挑戰這也是部長說的嘛對不對是"},{"start":594.195,"end":608.325,"text":"部長 我們這個美日罰款19萬上一次說它的寄款寄法的上限是20%可是建造款海軍是說建造款是193億還是台船說的"},{"start":610.768,"end":625.395,"text":"所以193億是上一次說的嘛所以我們罰款上限大概是40億可是國造潛艦全案的預算將近500億國防部擠附台船真的只有193億嗎總共有500億耶我們給台船493好沒關係你算493然後你給台船只有193億嗎"},{"start":636.702,"end":655.368,"text":"他就人力款物力款還有建造款那些都不用算因為你扣除廠房海軍技協及其他海軍配合款那其他的錢花到哪裡去了報表員就是說這493億包含人力物力跟建造款然後還有軍售款還有海軍的契約款"},{"start":656.527,"end":659.128,"text":"資助這些加起來是大概這樣我想我們有很多前後有很多的說法必須要一致國防部跟海軍曾經說過建造海昆號一艘要將近300億後續建因為增加通膨相關的因素所以後續7艘量產案他預算編列高達2840億是這樣算出來的所以平均一艘405億國防部要對台船罰款"},{"start":682.817,"end":697.788,"text":"現在去幫他計算的只有193億跟其他包括我們一般像民間也有媒體報導一般民間的商船他在延期交船的時候每日罰款大概是千分之一"},{"start":698.789,"end":701.251,"text":"如果是這樣看的話 台船一天要罰1930萬這跟現在民間的商船 跟這個大概是高達101倍啦我們現在不是說一定要罰台船 可是跟剛剛的站立是一樣的意思我們這個19萬算起來 如果"},{"start":720.087,"end":722.508,"text":"193億20%大概40億40億罰他一天19萬要罰五十幾年他才會達到上限才會解約可是你現在已經在編後續件了這一艘到底能不能用不知道那五十幾年以後才達到他的解約的上限條件那這中間如果他不堪"},{"start":742.194,"end":744.096,"text":"就是沒有辦法交件給海軍或者他根本沒有戰力或者他有其他的重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候那我們是怎麼樣去做後續件是繼續用計法然後還是越法越久"},{"start":757.029,"end":765.775,"text":"可能一百多年以後那對我們會形成非常大的戰力的艱辛當時要建這個潛艦的時候其實也是告訴我們他非常重要尤其維護我們台海周邊安全的時候這個也是大家提出來的理由之一那現在這個狀況會造成什麼影響你後續還能這樣照嗎因為你再怎麼罰他罰一年兩年對他來說他明年還是轉虧為盈啊"},{"start":782.525,"end":810.163,"text":"是 報委很簡單講整個當初因為第一次國內來做自行設計跟建造所以是屬於第一次所以我們採取是比較合理的約束跟這個鼓勵的這個部分來讓它改進來能夠繼續推動那因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰還有船廠的能力還有它公告的這個如果說我們採購的太嚴苛那後面參標的這個部分也會有一些影響所以說當初是整個這樣設計出來定定出來這個"},{"start":811.344,"end":814.968,"text":"雖然之前您不是在這個位置可是這個已經執行一段時間如果我們沒有要研科可是他是要形成戰力還有還有安全現在所有的所有的人現在講出來的條件要讓他還是都只有提安全可是過去在建造的時候那時候才需要研科那時候我們卻不研科我們所有的都樂觀以待全部都說這個"},{"start":835.967,"end":840.088,"text":"節點沒問題那個沒問題什麼都沒問題的情況之下你現在建造出來我們要五十幾年以後才可以把它伐到它的上限我們要的不是要罰款我們要的是你錢已經付了然後我們這一艘潛艦它到底要怎麼做你後續還有七艘你必須依據原型艦如果它必須要做非常大的變動的時候它甚至不是原型艦你後續艦都已經是重新建造所以這個是一個很重要的關鍵點我們今天會特別提出來"},{"start":864.716,"end":876.188,"text":"也是一樣希望探討的是這個部分部長您怎麼看我想一定是要維持這個品質也就是要符合我們的作戰需求這個部分一定要達到"},{"start":877.165,"end":895.264,"text":"所以我們也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準我想兩次一個機密報告一個公開報告都已經有說明我想我們現在了解的就是還是相關的這些系統的調教技術的困境我覺得已經逐步的在克服我們有信心還是可以建造完成"},{"start":896.485,"end":898.827,"text":"部長他已經建造完成我現在要說的是他不是技術的問題而已我上一次提出來的就雖然台船有說不是卡車我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的然後是經過延售改裝的戰車的引擎"},{"start":916.141,"end":920.405,"text":"如果是這是非常不恰當部長沒有關係你不用現在您幫我們認證因為你是法律人我們希望包括海軍司令還有包括部長你們相關人員因為必須對這個事情做一個負責的一個態度到時候幫我們做認證他的主機到底是什麼另外在這裡時間的關係我們希望我們看到國防部不管是對"},{"start":941.641,"end":965.793,"text":"軍購也好我們一般的商售我們很多的採購其實都發生非常大的問題像國防部對於各工程的建案還有造建案設計得標的得標廠商幾乎沒有約束力今天部長您是一個專業的法律人我們希望在這這個部分其實可以完整的去解決因為不是只有這個包括我們的軍博館"},{"start":969.295,"end":970.696,"text":"他從設計變更 他罰了300萬 可是又多給了8000萬甚至一蓋拖了10年所以就這個部分 你不管是在工程有很多的訓場 靶場所有的建築 最簡單的建築案我們國防部的幾乎都是延宕的"},{"start":987.563,"end":1007.123,"text":"而且都不斷的增加預算這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題我們在今年度的預算上面也有編列像法律就是那個律師的這樣子的一個費用我們希望部長可以本於你的法律專業就這個部分做一個徹底的一個解決好不好"},{"start":1007.682,"end":1023.48,"text":"所以我有不斷持續的在跟採購室還有相關的法律師等等我們都在研討進進那我想這些部分一定會逐步改善如果有改善的一個方向或者具體的做法也請提供書面報告兩週好不好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":337,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時40分）謝謝主席，麻煩請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。其實今天大家關切的面向也很多，不過在這裡還是要請教部長，行政院在108年度提出二千四百六十七億餘元的新式戰機採購特別預算，向美國採購F-16V戰機66架，期程是從109年到115年。部長在前天也向媒體說明明年戰機全數交付有挑戰性，因為最近常常聽到「挑戰性」，不管是船也好、飛機也好，好像都說有挑戰性，請問它的意思是什麼？會很困難嗎？明年要全數交付，因為明年是最後一年嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：我先請空軍參謀長來回答。"],["李參謀長慶然：委員好，我是空軍參謀長。跟委員報告，在F-16交機的部分，先前也跟委員做過報告，在109年簽約之後，從110年到112年遇到全球的新冠肺炎，造成整個供應鏈人力上非常嚴重的衝擊，所以前面的進度的部分已經非常嚴重的落後；在後續的部分，我們每個月都有跟美方還有洛馬公司以定期會議來督促、督管相關的進度。目前最新的進度是，洛馬公司已經增加人力，增加整個生產線的站位。我們也實際去廠裡面看了，它的人力也幾乎是24小時在運作，甚至連假日都有在加班趕進度的狀況，這是第一個人力上面的狀況。","第二個，在111年之後，剛好也遇到了俄烏戰爭，所以在軍火上面，尤其是軍火零附件的供應鏈上也造成很大的衝擊，所以它的下游廠商也有一些供應上的問題，這個部分也慢慢在解決。","第三個部分，我們訂的這個飛機是全球最新的飛機，是全數位化的，所以在工程的整合上面也遇到了一些問題，但是這些問題我們在每個月的督管會議也都有密切在關注，也陸續在解決當中。最快今年飛機可以進到整個飛試的部分，至於交機完成的部分，原先、最早在109年規劃的是在明年底要全數交機，但在今年會期的時候也跟委員報告過，今年年底依我們預判會有10架飛機完成組裝，但是要到明年底交機，確實有非常大的風險。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長剛剛說明了一些目前的狀況，可是這不是現在才發生，因為今年3月首架戰機在美國原廠辦理出廠儀式的時候，那時候國人是滿懷期待的，這是你們在3月時才舉辦的，而且6月份還信誓旦旦說今年可以完成10架以上，全案管制在115年可以接收完畢。可是你剛剛說明的這些狀況，不管是俄烏戰爭也好，不管是他下游廠商零附件的提供也好，或者他的人力調配等等其他因素，這個在之前一定都已經存在了，而且也跟你在3月及6月向全體國人或者跟立法院報告的不太一樣，只有短短不到4個月，卻有這樣的一個變化，連今年10架的目標也達不到，剛剛提到了工檢會，請問最後一次工檢會是什麼時候召開的？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，上個月底我親自到美國的生產線去看，整個生產線的狀況確實就像跟委員報告的，他有增加人力，日夜間都在趕工，連假日也都在趕工。"],["馬委員文君：所以以前沒有嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個是陸陸續續在進行的，在遷廠之後，他的人力……"],["馬委員文君：那時在立法院報告的時候為什麼你們這麼有信心說一定可以完成？然後說明年66架也可以如數的交機，且今年有10架，這都是你們說的，而且定期都有這樣的工檢會，所以現在看起來明年應該是沒有辦法達到，對不對？"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["馬委員文君：在這樣的狀況底下，因為明年是最後一年，特別預算結束以後，請問我們至少可以回來幾架，你們有預判嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個我們還在跟美方密切的努力當中，剛剛跟委員報告的，在人力上還有物料的調配上以及工程整合上，我們的定期會議都有在督促、督管這個進度。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，為什麼我們現在要提這個部分，因為明年是特別預算是最後一年，這個特別預算條例是有時間限制的，它的時程就是5年，對不對？到2026年？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個案子……"],["馬委員文君：這是有通過條例的，這是我們的特別預算，這也是法，所以不是說有什麼特例或沒有特例，現在沒有辦法完成，而且這個可能是第一例，因為以前如果時間到了就是現況結案，然後其他的就會繳回，請主計局說明。"],["謝局長其賢：委員好，我是主計局局長。針對於特別預算之執行，在行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第五十三點裡面有特別提到「特別預算之執行，除法規另有規定之外，準用本要點之規定辦理。」我們查了行政院各機關單位預算執行要點第三十六點，有特別提到預算保留的規範；再看到預算法第七十二條，也規範了相關預算保留的規定。再來，我們這個案子是109年到115年，當時在109年要執行之前，國防部在108年10月20號也訂頒了F-16戰機特別預算的執行及支付結報作業規定，裡面第三點也特別明定，在特別預算期間，如果最後期限內沒辦法執行完畢的話，相關預算必須辦理保留。所以明年如果真的沒辦法如期完成的話，我們會按照前述規定來辦理保留。"],["馬委員文君：好，你再把相關的資料提供給本席。"],["謝局長其賢：是，沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：因為國防部及所屬機關軍購案支出結報作業要點規定裡面是說，每年軍購案累計結匯額度逾美方執行進度值的部分，應轉入下個年度列為保留的準備，似乎沒有說到當期程到的時候，你是要做怎麼樣的保留，這個部分麻煩提供相關的資訊。","最重要的是特別預算的部分，我們支付至少超過1,500億以上了，雖然你們到最後2024年的時候有稍微做變更，可是當2023年就已經落後的時候，我們沒有及時去做調整發價書的動作。總之，我們現在已經支付了1,500億，可是我們到現在連一架都還沒有回來。那時候要有這個特別預算最主要的目的以及為什麼要這樣編，是為了因應中共軍事現代化跳躍式的成長，預判在116年我國空軍現有機隊將會漸失優勢，而且也考量到下一代高性能戰機獲得的期程，所以希望可以銜接時間以及投資成本相關的因素，規劃籌獲F-16型戰機，以彌補國軍戰力的間隙。其實你都已經算好了，如果他現在沒有辦法及時的提供，請問要如何彌補戰力的空隙？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，我們會加強我們的戰備整備，在這個部分，就現有的，我們分兩個部分來講，一個是人力的補充，我們一直維持我們飛行員的編現是在最高的狀況……"],["馬委員文君：美國的說法不是這樣喔！美國對於我們的編現還有我們飛官的人數，其實他的說法也不是這樣喔！所以你說要提升戰備，我想這不是用口說的就好，如果是這樣，那我們當時就不用編特別預算了，當時也不需要訂這樣的期程，當時你們要這一筆預算的時候，就已明確的告訴我們，在116年就有這樣的戰力空隙，所以你已經算出來了，而且到現在，我們知道他明年一定沒有辦法給，那後年呢？大後年呢？是要2年、5年還是要10年？就跟潛艦一樣嗎？所以這個部分我們希望你們可以提出更具體的戰力空隙說明報告，以利你們在後面的階段，即使要保留，甚至你都可能要現況結案，然後在以後的年度再用公開預算去執行，這樣才不會亂了我們所有的特別預算。因為你都說很重要，結果到時候都執行不了，我們現在的特別預算一千多億是要在兩年內執行完成，如果你有了一個先例，那以後是不是都可以這樣？這就打壞了我們預算的紀律，所以在這裡我們先將其提出來。"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["馬委員文君：接下來探討的是我們海鯤號的部分，台船原訂11月交艦的任務，也是說有相當大的挑戰，這也是部長說的，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們每日罰款19萬，但上一次說他的計罰上限是20%，可是海軍說建造款是193億，還是這個是台船說的？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：193億……"],["馬委員文君：193億是上一次說的，所以罰款的上限大概是40億，可是國造潛艦全案預算將近500億，國防部給付給台船真的只有193億嗎？總共有500億，我們給台船……"],["邱參謀長俊榮：總共493億……"],["馬委員文君：493億？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：好，沒關係，你算493億，然後你給台船只有193億嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：他有人力款、物力款，還有建造款。"],["馬委員文君：那些都不用算？因為扣除廠房、海軍技協及其他海軍配合款，那其他的錢花到哪裡去了？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這493億包含人力、物力跟建造款，然後還有軍售款，還有海軍的契約款，要支付這些，加起來大概是這個數字。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，你們前後有很多的說法必須要一致，國防部跟海軍曾經說過，建造海鯤號一艘要將近300億，後續艦因為增加通膨相關的因素，所以後續7艘量產案預算編列高達2,840億，是這樣算出來的，所以平均一艘405億。國防部要對台船罰款，現在幫他計算只有193億，跟其他一般……像民間也有媒體報導，一般民間的商船延期交船的每日罰款大概是千分之一，如果是這樣看的話，台船一天要罰1,930萬！民間商船罰款跟這個比，大概高達101倍，現在不是一定要罰台船，可是跟剛剛的戰力是一樣的意思，這19萬算起來，如果193億的20%，大概40億，40億一天罰他19萬，要罰五十幾年才會達到上限、才會解約，可是你現在已經在編後續艦，這一艘到底能不能用？不知道！五十幾年以後才達到他的解約上限條件，這中間如果不堪、沒有辦法交艦給海軍，或者他根本沒有戰力，或者有其他重大的缺失跟瑕疵的時候，我們怎麼樣去做後續艦？是繼續計罰，還越罰越久，可能一百多年以後，這對我們會形成非常大的戰力間隙。","當時要建潛艦的時候，告訴我們他非常重要，尤其對維護臺海周邊安全，這個也是大家提出來的理由之一，現在的狀況會造成什麼影響？你後續還能這樣造嗎？因為你再怎麼罰，他被罰一年、兩年，對他來說，他明年還是轉虧為盈啊！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我很簡單講，當初因為第一次由國內自行設計跟建造，這是屬於第一次，所以採取比較合理的約束跟鼓勵來讓他改進、能夠繼續推動。因為潛艦建造本來就有一些風險跟挑戰，另外船廠的能力，採購公告如果太嚴苛，後面參標的部分也會有一些影響，所以當初整個這樣設計出來、訂定出來……"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，雖然之前您不是在這個位置，可是已經執行一段時間，我們沒有要嚴苛，可是他是要形成戰力還有安全，現在所有的人講出來的條件，要讓他海試都只有提安全。過去在建造的時候，那時候須要嚴苛但是卻不嚴苛，我們所有人都樂觀以待，全部都說這個節點沒問題、那個沒問題，當時什麼都沒問題的情況下，現在建造出來卻要五十幾年以後才可以罰到他的上限，我們要的不是罰款，你錢已經付了，我們這一艘潛艦到底要怎麼做？你後續還有7艘，你必須依據原型艦，如果他必須要做非常大的變動，甚至不是原型艦，你後續艦都已經是重新建造，所以這個是很重要的關鍵點，今天會特別提出來也是一樣，希望探討的是這個部分，部長，您怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：我想一定是要維持品質，也就是要符合我們的作戰需求，這部分一定要達到。"],["馬委員文君：所以也不知道他什麼時候可以達到這樣的標準，你計罰的……"],["顧部長立雄：我想兩次機密報告，一次公開報告都已經有說明，我們現在了解的還是相關系統的調校，技術的困境我覺得已經逐步在克服，我們有信心還是可以建造完成，只是多一點時間。"],["馬委員文君：部長，他已經建造完成，我現在要說的是，他不是技術的問題而已。我上一次提出，雖然台船有說不是卡車，我有特別提到他是不是巴士並聯的、經過延壽改裝的戰車引擎？如果是，這是非常不恰當。部長，沒有關係，您幫我們認證，因為你是法律人，我們希望包括海軍司令，還有包括部長，你們相關人員必須對事情用負責的態度，到時候幫忙認證他的主機到底是什麼？","另外，時間的關係，我們看到國防部不管是對軍購也好，或在一般的商售、很多的採購，其實都發生非常大的問題。像國防部對於各工程的建案，還有建案設計的得標廠商，幾乎沒有約束力。部長，您是專業的法律人，希望在這部分可以完整去解決，因為不是只有這個，包括軍博館，他從設計、變更，雖然被罰了300萬，可是又多給了8,000萬，甚至一蓋拖了十年。所以就這個部分，你不管是在工程，有很多的訓場、靶場、所有的建築，最簡單的建築案，國防部幾乎都是延宕的，而且都不斷增加預算。這個部分顯然在合約上有非常多的問題，在今年度預算上面也有編列像律師的費用，我們希望部長可以本於你法律專業，就這個部分澈底解決，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：我有不斷持續在跟採購司，還有相關的法律司等等，我們都在研討精進，我想這些部分一定會逐步改善。"],["馬委員文君：如果有改善的方向或者具體的作法，也請提供書面報告。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：兩週好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員的質詢。","下一位質詢的委員是沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}}