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\"我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T-DOM來編列的也包括其他的部分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 418.795, \"end\": 418.936, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 418.936, \"end\": 419.356, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 419.356, \"end\": 419.456, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 419.456, \"end\": 419.937, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 419.937, \"end\": 420.097, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 420.097, \"end\": 420.959, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 420.959, \"end\": 421.079, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 421.079, \"end\": 421.299, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 421.299, \"end\": 422.241, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 422.241, \"end\": 422.381, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 422.381, \"end\": 422.641, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 422.641, \"end\": 422.842, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 422.842, \"end\": 423.102, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"T\", \"start\": 423.102, \"end\": 425.265, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"-\"}, {\"word\": \"D\", \"start\": 425.265, \"end\": 425.446, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 425.446, \"end\": 426.928, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"M\", \"start\": 426.928, \"end\": 427.108, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 427.108, \"end\": 427.308, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 427.308, \"end\": 428.09, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 428.09, \"end\": 428.31, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 428.31, \"end\": 428.47, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 428.47, \"end\": 428.65, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 428.65, \"end\": 428.851, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 428.851, \"end\": 429.011, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 429.011, \"end\": 429.151, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 429.151, \"end\": 429.291, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 429.291, \"end\": 429.311, \"score\": 0.183}]}, {\"start\": 431.392, \"end\": 450.505, \"text\": \"著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 431.392, \"end\": 431.552, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 431.552, \"end\": 431.692, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 431.692, \"end\": 431.792, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 431.792, \"end\": 432.313, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"隊\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 432.313, \"end\": 432.453, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 432.453, \"end\": 432.893, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 446.002, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 446.002, \"end\": 446.202, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 446.202, \"end\": 446.482, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 446.482, \"end\": 446.702, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 446.702, \"end\": 447.343, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 447.343, \"end\": 447.543, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 447.543, \"end\": 447.603, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"h\", \"start\": 447.603, \"end\": 447.783, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 447.783, \"end\": 447.843, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 447.843, \"end\": 447.863, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"t\", \"start\": 447.863, \"end\": 447.903, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 447.903, \"end\": 448.083, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"r\", \"start\": 448.083, \"end\": 448.103, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 448.103, \"end\": 448.203, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 448.203, \"end\": 448.343, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 448.343, \"end\": 448.523, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 448.523, \"end\": 448.724, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"武\", \"start\": 448.724, \"end\": 448.924, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"器\", \"start\": 448.924, \"end\": 449.084, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 449.084, \"end\": 449.224, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 449.224, \"end\": 449.324, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 449.324, \"end\": 449.424, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 449.424, \"end\": 449.624, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 449.624, \"end\": 449.884, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 449.884, \"end\": 450.085, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 450.085, \"end\": 450.325, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 450.325, \"end\": 450.485, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 450.485, \"end\": 450.505, \"score\": 0.044}]}, {\"start\": 451.265, \"end\": 465.961, \"text\": \"現有我們已經有很多的Sensor那也有很多的Shooter那麼未來也會來徵購這個Sensor也好或Shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 451.265, \"end\": 451.446, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 451.446, \"end\": 451.726, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 451.726, \"end\": 451.886, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 451.886, \"end\": 452.186, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 452.186, \"end\": 452.387, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 452.387, \"end\": 452.547, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 452.547, \"end\": 452.887, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"S\", \"start\": 452.887, \"end\": 452.907, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 452.907, \"end\": 453.027, \"score\": 0.827}, 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{\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 768.871, \"end\": 769.012, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 769.012, \"end\": 769.032, \"score\": 0.011}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,710 --> 00:00:03,115\n麻煩召委要請國防部部長請顧部長\n\n2\n00:00:10,729 --> 00:00:38,077\n市長陳委員好部長好其實這個問題我之前有問國安局不過還是要請教一下國防部因為這跟國防部直接比較有關聯就是近期發生的這個雄風二型三型反艦飛彈的這個海豐大隊那這個放烈陣地的這個教範還有標準作業程序的手冊那這些資訊他是有流出給這個中共的情報人員\n\n3\n00:00:38,977 --> 00:01:02,085\n那部長你有針對此事有表示說這是主動的這個檢舉查獲偵辦那你也認為說這是不代表說保防教育有相當的警覺那特別有提到一件事情就是我從這一次任期開始就不斷重複提到的只要涉及機密都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸\n\n4\n00:01:03,968 --> 00:01:28,565\n就國防部的掌握那這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定超延教範標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊\n\n5\n00:01:30,706 --> 00:01:53,211\n所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是\n\n6\n00:01:54,772 --> 00:02:06,241\n國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦\n\n7\n00:02:07,290 --> 00:02:34,611\n那所以說這個他有沒有通過查核跟他可不可以接觸這一個密等因為他不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏機密及機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好\n\n8\n00:02:36,724 --> 00:02:50,021\n我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的\n\n9\n00:02:51,092 --> 00:03:19,111\n如果說相關的共點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位\n\n10\n00:03:21,852 --> 00:03:49,283\n這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解\n\n11\n00:03:50,003 --> 00:04:04,131\n那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意\n\n12\n00:04:10,575 --> 00:04:25,434\n避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞\n\n13\n00:04:26,983 --> 00:04:52,946\n好谢谢那一样我上次在跟国安局质询的时候有特别提到他们有反情报的指引在他们的这个DCSA有反情报的接触指南那这个指南它原则上是不是只给情报单位包含它各个政府部门那都可以知道说有一些相关的指引那他们也会知道说要去向谁来去报告说有遇到异常接触的话\n\n14\n00:04:53,647 --> 00:05:07,731\n那過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室那可以來統籌那包含把一些反情報的這一些做法跟指引來去跟他處內的員工來說明\n\n15\n00:05:09,952 --> 00:05:24,499\n那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片\n\n16\n00:05:25,299 --> 00:05:48,855\n那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建制起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式\n\n17\n00:05:49,555 --> 00:06:03,776\n就是說他我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查那做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫\n\n18\n00:06:04,998 --> 00:06:29,077\n可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做\n\n19\n00:06:29,757 --> 00:06:58,167\n那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下\n\n20\n00:06:58,795 --> 00:07:09,311\n我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T-DOM來編列的也包括其他的部分\n\n21\n00:07:11,392 --> 00:07:30,505\n著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以\n\n22\n00:07:31,265 --> 00:07:45,961\n現有我們已經有很多的Sensor那也有很多的Shooter那麼未來也會來徵購這個Sensor也好或Shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高\n\n23\n00:07:47,043 --> 00:08:03,779\n這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子\n\n24\n00:08:04,339 --> 00:08:30,116\n所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那踢動未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎\n\n25\n00:08:32,824 --> 00:08:50,601\n應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣\n\n26\n00:08:52,741 --> 00:09:08,892\n因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機\n\n27\n00:09:11,494 --> 00:09:33,327\n重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到踢動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想\n\n28\n00:09:34,648 --> 00:09:55,691\n我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行賄的計畫\n\n29\n00:09:56,872 --> 00:10:24,590\n但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計畫它可以是有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷\n\n30\n00:10:25,490 --> 00:10:39,327\n怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向\n\n31\n00:10:41,178 --> 00:10:58,059\n那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭他的主網行動那其實是善用特種作戰方式那特種部隊所以他\n\n32\n00:10:58,659 --> 00:11:13,500\n他并不是在他们的从境内到他们的境外的供给而是直接在境外里面先预先直服那他们的安全人员或者是说他们的特务就先到那边去来去做一个完整的规划\n\n33\n00:11:14,261 --> 00:11:33,423\n那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種\n\n34\n00:11:34,804 --> 00:11:58,914\n用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是\n\n35\n00:11:59,964 --> 00:12:14,189\n我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係我說方針上政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜啦就人\n\n36\n00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:40,735\n還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些\n\n37\n00:12:42,097 --> 00:12:49,032\n這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是謝謝委員指教謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n710\t3115\t麻煩召委要請國防部部長請顧部長\n10729\t38077\t市長陳委員好部長好其實這個問題我之前有問國安局不過還是要請教一下國防部因為這跟國防部直接比較有關聯就是近期發生的這個雄風二型三型反艦飛彈的這個海豐大隊那這個放烈陣地的這個教範還有標準作業程序的手冊那這些資訊他是有流出給這個中共的情報人員\n38977\t62085\t那部長你有針對此事有表示說這是主動的這個檢舉查獲偵辦那你也認為說這是不代表說保防教育有相當的警覺那特別有提到一件事情就是我從這一次任期開始就不斷重複提到的只要涉及機密都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸\n63968\t88565\t就國防部的掌握 那這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定超延教範標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊\n90706\t113211\t所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是\n114772\t126241\t國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦\n127290\t154611\t那所以說這個他有沒有通過查核跟他可不可以接觸這一個密等因為他不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏機密及機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好\n156724\t170021\t我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的\n171092\t199111\t如果說相關的共點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位\n201852\t229283\t這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解\n230003\t244131\t那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意\n250575\t265434\t避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞\n266983\t292946\t好 谢谢那一样我上次在跟国安局质询的时候有特别提到他们有反情报的指引在他们的这个DCSA有反情报的接触指南那这个指南它原则上是不是只给情报单位包含它各个政府部门那都可以知道说有一些相关的指引那他们也会知道说要去向谁来去报告说有遇到异常接触的话\n293647\t307731\t那過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室那可以來統籌那包含把一些反情報的這一些做法跟指引來去跟他處內的員工來說明\n309952\t324499\t那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片\n325299\t348855\t那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建制起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式\n349555\t363776\t就是說他我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查那做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫\n364998\t389077\t可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做\n389757\t418167\t那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下\n418795\t429311\t我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T-DOM來編列的也包括其他的部分\n431392\t450505\t著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以\n451265\t465961\t現有我們已經有很多的Sensor那也有很多的Shooter那麼未來也會來徵購這個Sensor也好或Shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高\n467043\t483779\t這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子\n484339\t510116\t所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那踢動未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎\n512824\t530601\t應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣\n532741\t548892\t因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機\n551494\t573327\t重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到踢動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想\n574648\t595691\t我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行賄的計畫\n596872\t624590\t但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計畫它可以是有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷\n625490\t639327\t怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向\n641178\t658059\t那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭他的主網行動那其實是善用特種作戰方式那特種部隊所以他\n658659\t673500\t他并不是在他们的从境内到他们的境外的供给而是直接在境外里面先预先直服那他们的安全人员或者是说他们的特务就先到那边去来去做一个完整的规划\n674261\t693423\t那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種\n694804\t718914\t用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是\n719964\t734189\t我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係 我說方針上 政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜啦就人\n735269\t760735\t還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些\n762097\t769032\t這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是 謝謝委員指教謝謝\n","txt":"麻煩召委要請國防部部長請顧部長\n市長陳委員好部長好其實這個問題我之前有問國安局不過還是要請教一下國防部因為這跟國防部直接比較有關聯就是近期發生的這個雄風二型三型反艦飛彈的這個海豐大隊那這個放烈陣地的這個教範還有標準作業程序的手冊那這些資訊他是有流出給這個中共的情報人員\n那部長你有針對此事有表示說這是主動的這個檢舉查獲偵辦那你也認為說這是不代表說保防教育有相當的警覺那特別有提到一件事情就是我從這一次任期開始就不斷重複提到的只要涉及機密都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸\n就國防部的掌握 那這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定超延教範標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊\n所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是\n國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦\n那所以說這個他有沒有通過查核跟他可不可以接觸這一個密等因為他不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏機密及機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好\n我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的\n如果說相關的共點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位\n這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解\n那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意\n避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞\n好 谢谢那一样我上次在跟国安局质询的时候有特别提到他们有反情报的指引在他们的这个DCSA有反情报的接触指南那这个指南它原则上是不是只给情报单位包含它各个政府部门那都可以知道说有一些相关的指引那他们也会知道说要去向谁来去报告说有遇到异常接触的话\n那過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室那可以來統籌那包含把一些反情報的這一些做法跟指引來去跟他處內的員工來說明\n那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片\n那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建制起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式\n就是說他我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查那做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫\n可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做\n那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下\n我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T-DOM來編列的也包括其他的部分\n著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以\n現有我們已經有很多的Sensor那也有很多的Shooter那麼未來也會來徵購這個Sensor也好或Shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高\n這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子\n所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那踢動未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎\n應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣\n因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機\n重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到踢動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想\n我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行賄的計畫\n但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計畫它可以是有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷\n怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向\n那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭他的主網行動那其實是善用特種作戰方式那特種部隊所以他\n他并不是在他们的从境内到他们的境外的供给而是直接在境外里面先预先直服那他们的安全人员或者是说他们的特务就先到那边去来去做一个完整的规划\n那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種\n用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是\n我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係 我說方針上 政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜啦就人\n還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些\n這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是 謝謝委員指教謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.710 --> 00:03.115\n麻煩召委要請國防部部長請顧部長\n\n00:10.729 --> 00:38.077\n市長陳委員好部長好其實這個問題我之前有問國安局不過還是要請教一下國防部因為這跟國防部直接比較有關聯就是近期發生的這個雄風二型三型反艦飛彈的這個海豐大隊那這個放烈陣地的這個教範還有標準作業程序的手冊那這些資訊他是有流出給這個中共的情報人員\n\n00:38.977 --> 01:02.085\n那部長你有針對此事有表示說這是主動的這個檢舉查獲偵辦那你也認為說這是不代表說保防教育有相當的警覺那特別有提到一件事情就是我從這一次任期開始就不斷重複提到的只要涉及機密都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸\n\n01:03.968 --> 01:28.565\n就國防部的掌握那這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定超延教範標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊\n\n01:30.706 --> 01:53.211\n所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是\n\n01:54.772 --> 02:06.241\n國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦\n\n02:07.290 --> 02:34.611\n那所以說這個他有沒有通過查核跟他可不可以接觸這一個密等因為他不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏機密及機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好\n\n02:36.724 --> 02:50.021\n我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的\n\n02:51.092 --> 03:19.111\n如果說相關的共點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位\n\n03:21.852 --> 03:49.283\n這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解\n\n03:50.003 --> 04:04.131\n那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意\n\n04:10.575 --> 04:25.434\n避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞\n\n04:26.983 --> 04:52.946\n好谢谢那一样我上次在跟国安局质询的时候有特别提到他们有反情报的指引在他们的这个DCSA有反情报的接触指南那这个指南它原则上是不是只给情报单位包含它各个政府部门那都可以知道说有一些相关的指引那他们也会知道说要去向谁来去报告说有遇到异常接触的话\n\n04:53.647 --> 05:07.731\n那過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室那可以來統籌那包含把一些反情報的這一些做法跟指引來去跟他處內的員工來說明\n\n05:09.952 --> 05:24.499\n那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片\n\n05:25.299 --> 05:48.855\n那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建制起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式\n\n05:49.555 --> 06:03.776\n就是說他我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查那做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫\n\n06:04.998 --> 06:29.077\n可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做\n\n06:29.757 --> 06:58.167\n那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下\n\n06:58.795 --> 07:09.311\n我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T-DOM來編列的也包括其他的部分\n\n07:11.392 --> 07:30.505\n著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以\n\n07:31.265 --> 07:45.961\n現有我們已經有很多的Sensor那也有很多的Shooter那麼未來也會來徵購這個Sensor也好或Shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高\n\n07:47.043 --> 08:03.779\n這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子\n\n08:04.339 --> 08:30.116\n所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那踢動未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎\n\n08:32.824 --> 08:50.601\n應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣\n\n08:52.741 --> 09:08.892\n因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機\n\n09:11.494 --> 09:33.327\n重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到踢動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想\n\n09:34.648 --> 09:55.691\n我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行賄的計畫\n\n09:56.872 --> 10:24.590\n但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計畫它可以是有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷\n\n10:25.490 --> 10:39.327\n怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向\n\n10:41.178 --> 10:58.059\n那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭他的主網行動那其實是善用特種作戰方式那特種部隊所以他\n\n10:58.659 --> 11:13.500\n他并不是在他们的从境内到他们的境外的供给而是直接在境外里面先预先直服那他们的安全人员或者是说他们的特务就先到那边去来去做一个完整的规划\n\n11:14.261 --> 11:33.423\n那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種\n\n11:34.804 --> 11:58.914\n用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是\n\n11:59.964 --> 12:14.189\n我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係我說方針上政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜啦就人\n\n12:15.269 --> 12:40.735\n還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些\n\n12:42.097 --> 12:49.032\n這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是謝謝委員指教謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.71,"end":3.115,"text":"麻煩召委要請國防部部長請顧部長"},{"start":10.729,"end":38.077,"text":"市長陳委員好部長好其實這個問題我之前有問國安局不過還是要請教一下國防部因為這跟國防部直接比較有關聯就是近期發生的這個雄風二型三型反艦飛彈的這個海豐大隊那這個放烈陣地的這個教範還有標準作業程序的手冊那這些資訊他是有流出給這個中共的情報人員"},{"start":38.977,"end":62.085,"text":"那部長你有針對此事有表示說這是主動的這個檢舉查獲偵辦那你也認為說這是不代表說保防教育有相當的警覺那特別有提到一件事情就是我從這一次任期開始就不斷重複提到的只要涉及機密都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸"},{"start":63.968,"end":88.565,"text":"就國防部的掌握 那這個案件有沒有涉密還是它只是一個普通的鎮定超延教範標準作業程序手測所以它不涉密這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序它這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇但是還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊"},{"start":90.706,"end":113.211,"text":"所以這一個是沒有涉及機密的基本上可以這麼講他的這個層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的那個層級但是我想這個還是要屬於這一個所以這位隊員算是違規還沒有到違法的程度沒有沒有還是違法因為還是有觸犯這個因為不是"},{"start":114.772,"end":126.241,"text":"國家機密也是有涉及到相關的可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密那這個我們要尊重這個檢察官的偵辦尊重他的偵辦"},{"start":127.29,"end":154.611,"text":"那所以說這個他有沒有通過查核跟他可不可以接觸這一個密等因為他不涉及密等那所以就沒有查核的問題是這個意思嗎我們我們這個整個區隔還是有分成機敏機密及機密跟絕對機密有不同的查核所以我想我們都都會來進行相關的這些查核的工作好"},{"start":156.724,"end":170.021,"text":"我必須要提到這個像是這一次是主動去這個收到檢舉來去查獲跟偵辦嘛那未來就像我上次跟國安局有提到的"},{"start":171.092,"end":199.111,"text":"如果說相關的共點案件不是針對現役的軍人而是針對退役的軍人因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人大概有15人是退役但23%現役還是比較高一點但是如果他是接觸退役軍人的或者是被太處的軍人的話來去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話相關他覺得有異常的他想要去通報但他已經不在軍隊的單位"},{"start":201.852,"end":229.283,"text":"這樣子他有沒有什麼相關的異常狀況的通報指引委員好我是政戰局局長跟您做幾項報告第一個有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些太陽我們都已經做了一個整理那麼在對官兵的保防教育上面包含直播一些節目等等我們都會持續來做那目的就是把這些太陽讓我們的官兵都能夠了解"},{"start":230.003,"end":244.131,"text":"那麼現在有關於涉密一些共諜的案件有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映所以我想這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的那麼另外針對已經要退伍的人員我們也會特別告訴他們有哪一些要特別注意"},{"start":250.575,"end":265.434,"text":"避免在退伍之後呢也被接觸到以後不小心就涉犯到相關的法令還有就是針對我們也會跟國安單位來密切合作把這個聯防機制建立起來避免這些竊密的手段讓它得逞"},{"start":266.983,"end":292.946,"text":"好 谢谢那一样我上次在跟国安局质询的时候有特别提到他们有反情报的指引在他们的这个DCSA有反情报的接触指南那这个指南它原则上是不是只给情报单位包含它各个政府部门那都可以知道说有一些相关的指引那他们也会知道说要去向谁来去报告说有遇到异常接触的话"},{"start":293.647,"end":307.731,"text":"那過去我們是希望說能夠統一在跨部會的話可能是由各個局處的政風室那可以來統籌那包含把一些反情報的這一些做法跟指引來去跟他處內的員工來說明"},{"start":309.952,"end":324.499,"text":"那其實也不是只有國防部啦只要是跟人事相關的都必須要注意他特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏的資訊像是中共最近也對我們我方的人員他們自己在公佈我們的這個名字跟照片"},{"start":325.299,"end":348.855,"text":"那所以我想這個部分我還是希望說國防部未來可以把它建制起來就是體制化一點那未來在各個不同的部門都能夠知道那我講這件事情其實我也是特別也關心就是說跨部會包含健保署他們也有一些相關的這些資訊那所以如果遇到異常的話我們是希望真的是有一個方式"},{"start":349.555,"end":363.776,"text":"就是說他我們之前講的安全查核是做背景的調查那做背景的調查是為了要避免說這一個人可能事先他就在跟你說中共也好或者是境外勢力是有相關的聯繫"},{"start":364.998,"end":389.077,"text":"可是這個指引的話那這是另外一個方式它就是做防堵防堵就是說儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話那它有一個Pipeline有一個方式可以去立刻的跟上面來去呈報那我是希望說未來可以來效仿就不用重新發明輪子那效仿這一個美國的相關的安全指引那我們來做"},{"start":389.757,"end":418.167,"text":"那第二個部分想要請教部長也是剛才有很多委員有提到的TDOM的部分部長目前TDOM的規劃是他採取他是要打算採購新型的防空系統還是要整合優化現有的系統那你們的預算規模大概是剛才我聽幾個委員有說好像大到一兆三左右部長可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":418.795,"end":429.311,"text":"我想第一個說明我們這個特別預算不是只有針對這個T-DOM來編列的也包括其他的部分"},{"start":431.392,"end":450.505,"text":"著重於部隊戰力跟強化防衛韌性那T-DOM這個部分當然是其中的一部分那我想T-DOM的概念他大概就是說我們現在的相關的這個Sensor就是偵測器的部分要做個整合那Shooter就是防空武器的部分要做個整合所以"},{"start":451.265,"end":465.961,"text":"現有我們已經有很多的Sensor那也有很多的Shooter那麼未來也會來徵購這個Sensor也好或Shooter也好那不管是怎麼樣這個部分呢如果能夠有一個整合那這樣的話就可以提高"},{"start":467.043,"end":483.779,"text":"這個火力協調的分配的機制然後能夠多層次的來應對然後能夠讓這個攔截力能夠提升那也能夠做這個火力彈藥的做一個充分的分配運用這樣子"},{"start":484.339,"end":510.116,"text":"所以概念上是這樣我們的防空系統是在全世界是名列前茅愛國者三型然後強攻飛彈天空三型愛國者二型然後再還有麻雀防空飛彈地對空飛彈那近期還有這個復仇者飛彈那所以就是高中低的防禦那踢動未來就是補強基本上我們剛才提到的Sensor就是每一塊他都要把它的整合的能力提高可以這麼說嗎"},{"start":512.824,"end":530.601,"text":"應該就是說我們這個整合不管是美製的自製的然後或者我們未來要徵購的部分把它納入一個整合這個是一個重要的一個事項那我想我們會來朝這方面來努力這樣"},{"start":532.741,"end":548.892,"text":"因為我們看到現在中國的威脅它的各式的對台灣的空防的威脅其實是蠻多元的也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已那包含它的可能是遠程的金屬火箭或者是長程的這些無人機"},{"start":551.494,"end":573.327,"text":"重要的是我覺得我們還是要特別講到踢動我們是希望說能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們要的需求那怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式不對稱方式就不是一彈換彈那是更有效那甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空我想"},{"start":574.648,"end":595.691,"text":"我們還是必須就像我上次在質詢的時候還是提到因為如果我們要爭取這樣子的預算跟爭取這樣子的目標的話那我們的措辭在經濟效益上面就是我們剛剛提到不對稱部長剛剛也提到不對稱就是說這是最因為大家想到TDOM的時候可能會認為說它會是一個很行賄的計畫"},{"start":596.872,"end":624.59,"text":"但是我希望可以跟民眾還有跟在野黨的這些委員們說它不見得是昂貴的計畫它可以是有性價比的能夠有效率的來去做我國的防空剛剛提到Sensor跟Shooter我們可能過去太重視的是在這個攔截的這種動能型的防空而對Sensor來感應或者是說整個系統的整合讓他們來去做最好的判斷"},{"start":625.49,"end":639.327,"text":"怎麼樣可以用最低的代價那得到最高的防控我想這也是未來希望國防部在跟其他委員們還有包含跟國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向"},{"start":641.178,"end":658.059,"text":"那最後部長我還是要再特別強調我們剛才提到的都是基本上都是用交換幣但是之前在烏克蘭烏克蘭他的主網行動那其實是善用特種作戰方式那特種部隊所以他"},{"start":658.659,"end":673.5,"text":"他并不是在他们的从境内到他们的境外的供给而是直接在境外里面先预先直服那他们的安全人员或者是说他们的特务就先到那边去来去做一个完整的规划"},{"start":674.261,"end":693.423,"text":"那我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統就是重視採購在人的方面特別是在特種作戰的部分跟特種部隊的訓練以及特種作戰部隊他在新式武器上包含我們上次看到豬王行動他們應用的無人機然後在做出的這種"},{"start":694.804,"end":718.914,"text":"用最低的代價造成最大的戰果那這個部分我還是希望說部長如果有機會是不是能夠除了我們採購裝備的預算在人員訓練特殊作戰的部分部長有什麼樣的看法我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環但是"},{"start":719.964,"end":734.189,"text":"我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外來說明沒關係 我說方針上 政策上我是希望說未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面因為我們過度的都放在裝備上面我是覺得有點可惜啦就人"},{"start":735.269,"end":760.735,"text":"還是很重要的我是希望說還是希望有人去操作還是希望有人去思考出對我國性價比最高那能夠交換率最高那豬王行動雖然說離現在有一段時間了但我覺得從中得到的一些經驗真的是可以把一些資源來放在這上面就除了傳統上面我們的比較高額度高昂的武器上面有些"},{"start":762.097,"end":769.032,"text":"這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上是 謝謝委員指教謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時15分）麻煩召委邀請國防部部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。其實這個問題我之前有問過國安局，不過還是要請教國防部，因為這跟國防部比較有直接的關聯，就是近期發生負責操作雄風二型、三型反艦飛彈的海鋒大隊士兵將放列陣地教範及標準作業程序手冊等資訊流出給中共情報人員，部長針對此事有表示，這是主動檢舉查獲偵辦，你也認為這代表保防教育讓官兵有相當的警覺，你特別有提到一件事情，也是我從任期開始就不斷重複提到的，只要涉及機密都要加強查核，查核不過就不能接觸。就國防部的掌握，這個案件有沒有涉密？還是它只是一個普通的陣地操演教範、標準作業程序手冊，所以不涉密？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分我們有經過一個機密資訊的審認程序，這個部分是沒有涉及國家機密保護法的範疇，但還是屬於不對外公開的內部資訊。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這個是沒有涉及機密的，基本上可以這麼講？"],["顧部長立雄：它的層級還沒有到國家機密保護法的層級，但是這個還是屬於……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這位隊員算是違規，還沒有到違法的程度？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，還是違法，因為還是有觸犯……因為即使不是國家機密，也是有涉及到相關可能的軍事機密或者是國防以外的機密，我們要尊重檢察官的偵辦。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以對於他有沒有通過查核以及他可不可以接觸這個密等，因為它不涉及密等，所以就沒有查核的問題，是這個意思嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這整個區隔還是有分成機敏、機密、極機密和絕對機密，各有不同的查核，所以我們都會來進行相關的查核工作。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。我必須要提到，像這一次是收到檢舉而主動去查獲跟偵辦，未來，就像我上次跟國安局有提到的，如果相關的共諜案件不是針對現役軍人，而是針對退役軍人，因為我們看2024年涉案遭起訴的退役軍人中，大概有15人是退役，占23%，現役還是比較高一點。但是如果對方是接觸退役軍人或是被汰除的軍人，去得到他過去掌握的資訊的話，相關他覺得有異常的，他想要去通報，但他已經不在軍隊的單位，對於這樣的狀況，他有沒有什麼相關異常狀況的通報指引？"],["史局長順文：委員好，我是政戰局局長，跟您做幾項報告，第一個，有關於退役人員接觸我們官兵這些態樣，我們都已經做了整理，在對官兵的保防教育上面，包含製播一些節目等等，我們都會持續來做，目的就是讓我們的官兵都能夠了解這些態樣。現在有關於涉密共諜的案件，其中有非常高的比例都是由我們官兵來反映，這方面也表示我們的保防教育是成功的。另外，針對已經要退伍的人員，我們也會特別告訴他們，有哪一些要特別注意，避免在退伍之後也被接觸到，然後不小心就涉犯相關的法令。還有，我們也會跟國安單位密切合作，把這個聯防機制建立起來，避免這些竊密的手段，讓他得逞。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。一樣，我上次在跟國安局質詢的時候有特別提到，他們在他們的DCSA有反情報接觸指南，這個指南原則上不是只給情報單位，包含各個政府部門都可以知道一些相關的指引，他們也會知道遇到異常接觸的話，要去向誰報告。過去我們是希望能夠統一，在跨部會的話，可能是由各個局處的政風室來統籌，包含把一些反情報的作法跟指引來去跟他處內的員工做說明。其實也不是只有國防部，只要是跟人、事相關的都必須要注意，因為他們特別會希望得到這些相關的機敏資訊，像是中共最近也公布了我方人員的名字跟照片，所以我還是希望國防部未來可以把這個部分建置起來，體制化一點，未來讓各個不同的部門都能夠知道。","我講這件事情，其實我也是特別關心跨部會，包含健保署也有一些相關的資訊，所以如果遇到異常的話，我們是希望真的可以有一個方式，就是說，我們之前講的安全查核是做背景調查，做背景調查是為了要避免這個人可能事先就跟中共或者境外勢力有相關的聯繫，可是指引就是另外一個方式，它就是做防堵，防堵就是儘管已經知道或者是懷疑的話，他有一個pipeline、有一個方式可以立刻跟上面陳報，我是希望未來可以效仿，就不用重新發明輪子，可以效仿美國相關的安全指引來做。","第二個想要請教部長的是剛才很多委員提到的T-Dome的部分，就目前T-Dome的規劃，它是打算要採購新型的防空系統，還是要整合、優化現有的系統？你們的預算規模大概多大？剛才有聽到幾個委員說，好像大到一兆三左右，部長可不可以簡單回應一下？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個說明，這個特別預算不是只有針對T-Dome來編列，也包括其他的部分，要著重於不對稱戰力跟強化防衛韌性，當然T-Dome是其中一部分。T-Dome的概念大概就是，我們現在相關sensor（偵測器）的部分要做個整合，shooter（防空武器）的部分也要做個整合，我們現在已經有很多的sensor，也有很多的shooter，我們未來也會來增購sensor或shooter，不管怎麼樣，這個部分如果能夠整合，就可以提高火力協調的分配機制，然後能夠多層次的來應對，讓攔截力提升，也能夠讓火力彈藥做充分分配運用，概念上是這樣。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們的防空系統在全世界是名列前茅的，有愛國者三型、強弓飛彈、天弓三型、愛國者二型，還有麻雀防空飛彈、地對空飛彈，近期還有復仇者飛彈，就是高、中、低的防禦都有，所以T-Dome未來就是要補強我們剛才提到的sensor，就是要把每一塊的整合能力提高，可以這麼說嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是說我們的整合，不管是美製的、自製的或者我們未來要增購的部分，都把它納入一個整合，這是一個重要的事項，我們會朝這方面來努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。因為我們看到現在中國對臺灣的各式空防威脅其實是滿多元的，也不見得是傳統的飛彈而已，包含可能是遠程的精準火箭或者是長程的無人機，重要的是，我覺得我們還是要特別講到T-Dome，我們是希望能夠用最有性價比的模式來去達到我們的需求，怎麼樣最有辦法用不對稱的方式，不對稱方式不是以彈換彈，而是以更有效，甚至更廉價的方式來作為防空，就像我上次在質詢的時候提到，如果我們要爭取這樣的預算跟爭取這樣的目標的話，我們的措辭在經濟效益上面，就是我們剛剛提到不對稱，部長剛剛也提到不對稱，因為大家想到T-Dome的時候，可能會認為它會是一個很昂貴的計畫，但是我希望可以跟民眾、跟在野黨的委員們說，它不見得是昂貴的計畫，它可以是有性價比的，能夠有效率地去做我國的防空。剛剛提到sensor跟shooter，我們可能過去太重視這種攔截的動能型防空，對sensor來感應，或者透過整個系統的整合去做最好的判斷，怎麼樣可以用最低的代價得到最高的防空，我想這也是未來希望國防部跟其他委員們及國民說明的時候能夠努力的方向。","最後，部長，我還是要再特別強調，我們剛才提到的基本上都是用交換比，但是之前烏克蘭的蛛網行動其實是善用特種作戰方式、特種部隊，並不是從他們的境內到境外的攻擊，而是直接在境外預先支付，他們的安全人員或者特務就先到那邊做一個完整的規劃。我想過去我們很重視的是武器的系統，就是重視採購，在人的方面，特別是在特種作戰的部分、特種部隊的訓練，以及特種作戰部隊的新式武器，包含我們上次看到蛛網行動應用無人機，用最低的代價造成最大的戰果。就這個部分，我還是希望如果有機會，除了我們採購裝備的預算，在人員訓練、特殊作戰的部分，部長有什麼樣的看法？"],["顧部長立雄：我想特種作戰也是現在我們發揮關鍵戰力裡面重要的一環，但是我想詳細的部分可能沒有辦法對外說明……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我是說方針上、政策上，我希望未來我們可以把資源也放在這上面……"],["顧部長立雄：對，特種作戰……"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我們過度放在裝備上面，我覺得有點可惜，人還是很重要的，我還是希望有人去操作，還是希望有人思考出對我國性價比最高、交換率最高的方式。蛛網行動雖然離現在有一段時間了，但我覺得從中得到的經驗，真的是可以把一些資源放在這上面，就是除了傳統上面我們比較高額度、費用高昂的武器上面，有些這種具有破壞式創新的應用也能夠在國防上。"],["顧部長立雄：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}}