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211.028, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 211.028, \"end\": 211.228, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 211.228, \"end\": 212.049, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 212.049, \"end\": 212.269, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"雙\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 212.269, \"end\": 213.269, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 213.269, \"end\": 213.289, \"score\": 0.331}]}, {\"start\": 214.649, \"end\": 240.263, \"text\": \"一約執行 那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去 是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎 確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 214.649, \"end\": 215.13, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 215.13, \"end\": 215.59, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 215.59, \"end\": 215.89, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 215.89, \"end\": 216.07, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 216.07, \"end\": 216.711, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 239.502, \"end\": 239.643, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 239.643, \"end\": 240.043, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 240.043, \"end\": 240.243, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 240.243, \"end\": 240.263, \"score\": 0.032}]}, {\"start\": 241.351, \"end\": 244.834, \"text\": \"所以就是說百分之三十是到中科院然後七十是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 241.351, \"end\": 241.471, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 241.471, \"end\": 241.571, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 241.571, \"end\": 241.651, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 241.651, \"end\": 241.671, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 241.671, \"end\": 241.691, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 241.691, \"end\": 241.791, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 241.791, \"end\": 241.811, \"score\": 0.0}, 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{\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 635.65, \"end\": 635.91, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 635.91, \"end\": 636.09, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 636.09, \"end\": 636.11, \"score\": 0.025}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}]}, {\"start\": 641.033, \"end\": 644.116, \"text\": \"所以這些裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人沒有軍人那這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 641.033, \"end\": 641.093, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 641.093, \"end\": 641.153, \"score\": 0.06}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 641.153, \"end\": 641.173, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 641.173, \"end\": 641.233, \"score\": 0.391}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 641.233, \"end\": 641.253, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 641.253, \"end\": 641.273, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 641.273, \"end\": 641.413, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": 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00:00:40,908\n是除役的去年除役那今年7月除役的是RF51偵查型的這個F5那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高交機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢\n\n3\n00:00:42,113 --> 00:00:55,616\n所以我們的組合約是中科院那由中科院向漢祥公司次合約商來自製研發的那預劃是明年交66架今年預劃是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架\n\n4\n00:00:57,648 --> 00:01:17,873\n所以我想說已經有延遲對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些\n\n5\n00:01:24,741 --> 00:01:46,830\n包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況\n\n6\n00:01:48,427 --> 00:01:54,830\n好那我看這樣永英的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永英高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永英為什麼會延宕呢還有\n\n7\n00:02:05,194 --> 00:02:16,026\n外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些\n\n8\n00:02:27,486 --> 00:02:51,947\n系統件這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙照的爆破系統等等這些在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們要希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個查催這樣\n\n9\n00:02:53,635 --> 00:03:09,509\n那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限\n\n10\n00:03:11,063 --> 00:03:33,289\n我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些遲延的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就\n\n11\n00:03:34,649 --> 00:04:00,263\n一約執行那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入\n\n12\n00:04:01,351 --> 00:04:04,834\n所以就是說百分之三十是到中科院然後七十是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才\n\n13\n00:04:22,328 --> 00:04:36,694\n那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪啦因為中科院是主合約商嘛結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢啊那漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢啊這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意啊所以可不可以解釋一下\n\n14\n00:04:50,876 --> 00:05:16,654\n是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院那中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對\n\n15\n00:05:17,942 --> 00:05:37,031\n就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些花款\n\n16\n00:05:37,551 --> 00:05:39,193\n因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋\n\n17\n00:05:53,755 --> 00:05:58,699\n但我是覺得這樣的話是不是全部應該繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算\n\n18\n00:06:18,815 --> 00:06:24,798\n即將要編列了送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好謝謝\n\n19\n00:06:30,390 --> 00:06:55,919\n那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈利應該是\n\n20\n00:06:57,259 --> 00:07:05,086\n近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止\n\n21\n00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:46,785\n編制元額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整一萬七千四百六十人等於三年內整個蒸發掉三十四個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來一百分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成六十分\n\n22\n00:07:47,225 --> 00:08:14,004\n那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援官方實質財力\n\n23\n00:08:17,766 --> 00:08:31,796\n委員好我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證原額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況\n\n24\n00:08:32,857 --> 00:08:52,784\n所以我们为了使国防预算能够做妥适的一个运用那所以我们就是希望能够核实编列所以今年我们就是更加的来精准的来计算这些的一个数字包括我们的招募的目标还有我们的离退的长数跟我们发薪的长数那就是希望能够更精准的来估算这个人员维持费的一个部分\n\n25\n00:08:54,485 --> 00:08:59,207\n因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數所以不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緣和看你要怎麼去編那個\n\n26\n00:09:14,235 --> 00:09:21,400\n但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以\n\n27\n00:09:40,151 --> 00:09:43,994\n請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓這個整個員額這樣減少那我們買那麼多裝備去把自願役的人力一再一再的砍那這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢\n\n28\n00:10:00,665 --> 00:10:18,259\n我們實際的我想在營的這個人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的這個在營的這個人數沒有\n\n29\n00:10:22,742 --> 00:10:36,110\n像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備\n\n30\n00:10:41,033 --> 00:10:44,116\n所以這些裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人沒有軍人那這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰\n\n31\n00:11:00,923 --> 00:11:23,983\n對所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況\n\n32\n00:11:25,168 --> 00:11:28,749\n我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那\n\n33\n00:11:55,014 --> 00:11:56,815\n部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢\n\n34\n00:12:10,342 --> 00:12:24,670\n我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債能人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債能人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況\n\n35\n00:12:27,292 --> 00:12:40,523\n事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強\n\n36\n00:12:42,444 --> 00:12:59,137\n所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加急之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加急的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構\n\n37\n00:13:01,118 --> 00:13:15,845\n將戰鬥部隊的加緊把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好\n\n38\n00:13:17,185 --> 00:13:39,963\n好本席還是提醒部長因為本席其實對你有很高的期待因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長所以也是很願意你都很願意推動一些改革是一個改革的部長然後未來改革當然是我們也是要讓基層的官兵真正的有感而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續的留在整個部隊一定要真心的去傾聽這整個基層官兵的心聲可以嗎\n\n39\n00:13:42,825 --> 00:13:48,228\n是我們還是會持續的來整體的規劃檢討提升冠病的待遇這樣謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1734\t4215\t謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是另外部長好好首先要請教部長之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的步訊機F51是不是在今年7月已經正式的除役了\n24259\t40908\t是除役的去年除役 那今年7月除役的是RF51偵查型的這個F5那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高交機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢\n42113\t55616\t所以我們的組合約是中科院那由中科院向漢祥公司次合約商來自製研發的那預劃是明年交66架今年預劃是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架\n57648\t77873\t所以我想說已經有延遲對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些\n84741\t106830\t包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況\n108427\t114830\t好那我看這樣永英的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永英高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永英為什麼會延宕呢還有\n125194\t136026\t外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些\n147486\t171947\t系統件這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙照的爆破系統等等這些在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們要希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個查催這樣\n173635\t189509\t那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限\n191063\t213289\t我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些遲延的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就\n214649\t240263\t一約執行 那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去 是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎 確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入\n241351\t244834\t所以就是說百分之三十是到中科院然後七十是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才\n262328\t276694\t那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪啦因為中科院是主合約商嘛結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢啊那漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢啊這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意啊所以可不可以解釋一下\n290876\t316654\t是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院那中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對\n317942\t337031\t就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些花款\n337551\t339193\t因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋\n353755\t358699\t但我是覺得這樣的話是不是全部應該繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說 我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算\n378815\t384798\t即將要編列了 送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好 謝謝\n390390\t415919\t那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈利應該是\n417259\t425086\t近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止\n442100\t466785\t編制元額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整一萬七千四百六十人等於三年內整個蒸發掉三十四個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來一百分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成六十分\n467225\t494004\t那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援官方實質財力\n497766\t511796\t委員好 我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證原額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況\n512857\t532784\t所以我们为了使国防预算能够做妥适的一个运用那所以我们就是希望能够核实编列所以今年我们就是更加的来精准的来计算这些的一个数字包括我们的招募的目标还有我们的离退的长数跟我们发薪的长数那就是希望能够更精准的来估算这个人员维持费的一个部分\n534485\t539207\t因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數所以不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緣和看你要怎麼去編那個\n554235\t561400\t但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以\n580151\t583994\t請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓這個整個員額這樣減少那我們買那麼多裝備去把自願役的人力一再一再的砍那這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢\n600665\t618259\t我們實際的我想在營的這個人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的這個在營的這個人數沒有\n622742\t636110\t像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備\n641033\t644116\t所以這些裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人沒有軍人那這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰\n660923\t683983\t對 所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況\n685168\t688749\t我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那\n715014\t716815\t部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢\n730342\t744670\t我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債能人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債能人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況\n747292\t760523\t事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強\n762444\t779137\t所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加急之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加急的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構\n781118\t795845\t將戰鬥部隊的加緊把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好\n797185\t819963\t好 本席還是提醒部長因為本席其實對你有很高的期待因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長所以也是很願意你都很願意推動一些改革是一個改革的部長然後未來改革當然是我們也是要讓基層的官兵真正的有感而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續的留在整個部隊一定要真心的去傾聽這整個基層官兵的心聲可以嗎\n822825\t828228\t是 我們還是會持續的來整體的規劃檢討提升冠病的待遇這樣謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是另外部長好好首先要請教部長之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的步訊機F51是不是在今年7月已經正式的除役了\n是除役的去年除役 那今年7月除役的是RF51偵查型的這個F5那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高交機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢\n所以我們的組合約是中科院那由中科院向漢祥公司次合約商來自製研發的那預劃是明年交66架今年預劃是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架\n所以我想說已經有延遲對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些\n包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況\n好那我看這樣永英的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永英高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永英為什麼會延宕呢還有\n外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些\n系統件這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙照的爆破系統等等這些在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們要希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個查催這樣\n那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限\n我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些遲延的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就\n一約執行 那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去 是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎 確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入\n所以就是說百分之三十是到中科院然後七十是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才\n那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪啦因為中科院是主合約商嘛結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢啊那漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢啊這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意啊所以可不可以解釋一下\n是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院那中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對\n就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些花款\n因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋\n但我是覺得這樣的話是不是全部應該繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說 我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算\n即將要編列了 送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好 謝謝\n那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈利應該是\n近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止\n編制元額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整一萬七千四百六十人等於三年內整個蒸發掉三十四個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來一百分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成六十分\n那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援官方實質財力\n委員好 我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證原額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況\n所以我们为了使国防预算能够做妥适的一个运用那所以我们就是希望能够核实编列所以今年我们就是更加的来精准的来计算这些的一个数字包括我们的招募的目标还有我们的离退的长数跟我们发薪的长数那就是希望能够更精准的来估算这个人员维持费的一个部分\n因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數所以不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緣和看你要怎麼去編那個\n但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以\n請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓這個整個員額這樣減少那我們買那麼多裝備去把自願役的人力一再一再的砍那這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢\n我們實際的我想在營的這個人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的這個在營的這個人數沒有\n像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備\n所以這些裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人沒有軍人那這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰\n對 所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況\n我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那\n部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢\n我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債能人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債能人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況\n事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強\n所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加急之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加急的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構\n將戰鬥部隊的加緊把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好\n好 本席還是提醒部長因為本席其實對你有很高的期待因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長所以也是很願意你都很願意推動一些改革是一個改革的部長然後未來改革當然是我們也是要讓基層的官兵真正的有感而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續的留在整個部隊一定要真心的去傾聽這整個基層官兵的心聲可以嗎\n是 我們還是會持續的來整體的規劃檢討提升冠病的待遇這樣謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.734 --> 00:04.215\n謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是另外部長好好首先要請教部長之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的步訊機F51是不是在今年7月已經正式的除役了\n\n00:24.259 --> 00:40.908\n是除役的去年除役那今年7月除役的是RF51偵查型的這個F5那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高交機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢\n\n00:42.113 --> 00:55.616\n所以我們的組合約是中科院那由中科院向漢祥公司次合約商來自製研發的那預劃是明年交66架今年預劃是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架\n\n00:57.648 --> 01:17.873\n所以我想說已經有延遲對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些\n\n01:24.741 --> 01:46.830\n包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況\n\n01:48.427 --> 01:54.830\n好那我看這樣永英的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永英高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永英為什麼會延宕呢還有\n\n02:05.194 --> 02:16.026\n外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些\n\n02:27.486 --> 02:51.947\n系統件這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙照的爆破系統等等這些在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們要希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個查催這樣\n\n02:53.635 --> 03:09.509\n那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限\n\n03:11.063 --> 03:33.289\n我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些遲延的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就\n\n03:34.649 --> 04:00.263\n一約執行那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入\n\n04:01.351 --> 04:04.834\n所以就是說百分之三十是到中科院然後七十是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才\n\n04:22.328 --> 04:36.694\n那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪啦因為中科院是主合約商嘛結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢啊那漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢啊這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意啊所以可不可以解釋一下\n\n04:50.876 --> 05:16.654\n是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院那中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對\n\n05:17.942 --> 05:37.031\n就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些花款\n\n05:37.551 --> 05:39.193\n因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋\n\n05:53.755 --> 05:58.699\n但我是覺得這樣的話是不是全部應該繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算\n\n06:18.815 --> 06:24.798\n即將要編列了送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好謝謝\n\n06:30.390 --> 06:55.919\n那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈利應該是\n\n06:57.259 --> 07:05.086\n近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止\n\n07:22.100 --> 07:46.785\n編制元額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整一萬七千四百六十人等於三年內整個蒸發掉三十四個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來一百分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成六十分\n\n07:47.225 --> 08:14.004\n那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援官方實質財力\n\n08:17.766 --> 08:31.796\n委員好我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證原額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況\n\n08:32.857 --> 08:52.784\n所以我们为了使国防预算能够做妥适的一个运用那所以我们就是希望能够核实编列所以今年我们就是更加的来精准的来计算这些的一个数字包括我们的招募的目标还有我们的离退的长数跟我们发薪的长数那就是希望能够更精准的来估算这个人员维持费的一个部分\n\n08:54.485 --> 08:59.207\n因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數所以不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緣和看你要怎麼去編那個\n\n09:14.235 --> 09:21.400\n但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以\n\n09:40.151 --> 09:43.994\n請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓這個整個員額這樣減少那我們買那麼多裝備去把自願役的人力一再一再的砍那這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢\n\n10:00.665 --> 10:18.259\n我們實際的我想在營的這個人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的這個在營的這個人數沒有\n\n10:22.742 --> 10:36.110\n像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備\n\n10:41.033 --> 10:44.116\n所以這些裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人沒有軍人那這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰\n\n11:00.923 --> 11:23.983\n對所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況\n\n11:25.168 --> 11:28.749\n我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那\n\n11:55.014 --> 11:56.815\n部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢\n\n12:10.342 --> 12:24.670\n我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債能人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債能人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況\n\n12:27.292 --> 12:40.523\n事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強\n\n12:42.444 --> 12:59.137\n所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加急之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加急的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構\n\n13:01.118 --> 13:15.845\n將戰鬥部隊的加緊把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好\n\n13:17.185 --> 13:39.963\n好本席還是提醒部長因為本席其實對你有很高的期待因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長所以也是很願意你都很願意推動一些改革是一個改革的部長然後未來改革當然是我們也是要讓基層的官兵真正的有感而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續的留在整個部隊一定要真心的去傾聽這整個基層官兵的心聲可以嗎\n\n13:42.825 --> 13:48.228\n是我們還是會持續的來整體的規劃檢討提升冠病的待遇這樣謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.734,"end":4.215,"text":"謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是另外部長好好首先要請教部長之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的步訊機F51是不是在今年7月已經正式的除役了"},{"start":24.259,"end":40.908,"text":"是除役的去年除役 那今年7月除役的是RF51偵查型的這個F5那請問一下就是準備接替的永英高交機是向誰購買的然後有預計要交機幾架呢"},{"start":42.113,"end":55.616,"text":"所以我們的組合約是中科院那由中科院向漢祥公司次合約商來自製研發的那預劃是明年交66架今年預劃是交63架那到目前為止是交了49架"},{"start":57.648,"end":77.873,"text":"所以我想說已經有延遲對不對因為快11月了我想一年都要過去了當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主海軍的海空號也是一直都延宕都開不出來所以連高連空軍的高交機也交不出來那我們國防自主到底有沒有這個能力啊可以請部長回答一下嗎我想這個部分當然就有一些"},{"start":84.741,"end":106.83,"text":"包括像發動機的承商他沒有辦法來準時交運我想這個是在我們國防自主的發展當中如果就這些關鍵的像發動機這樣的一個事項確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分就會有可能發生這樣的狀況"},{"start":108.427,"end":114.83,"text":"好那我看這樣永英的高交機的交機的進度其實是已經落後了那想請教部長就是永英高交機現在的情況就是已經說已經交了幾架了呢永英為什麼會延宕呢還有"},{"start":125.194,"end":136.026,"text":"外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些呢空軍有沒有去了解這整個的原因是在哪裡還有這是到底是中科院的問題還是漢翔的問題還是有一些我們都不可以抗力的因素呢我想主要是這個策略上漢翔公司他外購的一些"},{"start":147.486,"end":171.947,"text":"系統件這個包括這個發動機要有環控系統起落架跟座艙照的爆破系統等等這些在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨所以是外購的系統所以才整個都是延宕嘛所以我們要希望能夠我們來加強這個外購料件的一個查催這樣"},{"start":173.635,"end":189.509,"text":"那依照整個合約我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢然後如果是說除了計法外是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢還有罰款是什麼計算的還有每天罰多少罰款的金額有沒有一個上限"},{"start":191.063,"end":213.289,"text":"我們就中科院來講確實對漢翔有一個計法的一個條款那我想後續我們就約執行那有漢翔公司所提出來一些遲延的這個原因那沒有辦法準時交貨這個原因的話我們會來了解那了解之後雙方就"},{"start":214.649,"end":240.263,"text":"一約執行 那如果說有需要進行協調的部分我們會交公共工程會來進行協調那這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去 是會回到國庫嗎還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢會回到國庫整個會回到國庫嗎 確定嗎有一部分的那個比例吧有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入"},{"start":241.351,"end":244.834,"text":"所以就是說百分之三十是到中科院然後七十是回到國庫嗎因為這些罰款其實應該是要繳回國庫因為這本來就是都是人民的納稅錢所以為什麼就是說我在想說為什麼中科院然後廠商這樣延遲交貨的罰款國防部竟然就是才"},{"start":262.328,"end":276.694,"text":"那麼少而不是全額因為我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪啦因為中科院是主合約商嘛結果漢祥是如果是說漢祥結果如果準時交機中科院還是賺錢啊那漢祥如果延宕交機中科院還是一樣賺錢啊這樣的話不但還可以裁罰罰款的而且還可以多佔一筆漢祥的罰款入袋我覺得這樣怎麼會有天底下有那麼好多文鑽不培的那麼好的生意啊所以可不可以解釋一下"},{"start":290.876,"end":316.654,"text":"是委員有關當時委制的整個合約的機制那因為中科院是主合約商所以說他的整個罰款是罰給中科院那中科院在按照罰款的比例就我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫其他罰款就變成是中科院業務收入那未來在類似的委制的合約上我們的確這個部分是可以去做檢討的所以中科院還是有責任嘛對不對"},{"start":317.942,"end":337.031,"text":"就是說這個合約的部分應該要看規則因素嘛中科院作為組合約項假設是規則於他那這個時候就他產生合約上責任那假設是規則於漢祥那就有漢祥的責任那我想就這個部分剛剛院長也提到了我們可以來進行檢討有關相關的這些花款"},{"start":337.551,"end":339.193,"text":"因為我想說海昆號的測試的延宕其實台船都要繳納這些罰款給海軍這些錢其實都是進國庫的我只是想說永英高校機如果是延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋"},{"start":353.755,"end":358.699,"text":"但我是覺得這樣的話是不是全部應該繳回國庫呢所以我本來是建議說 我想說建議部長說是不是請國防部要請相關的部會就像剛才說的主計總處還有公共的工程委員會一起重新審視一下這樣的內容是不是有沒有不合理的地方需不需要修正不然未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算"},{"start":378.815,"end":384.798,"text":"即將要編列了 送來立法院審議那我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢我們就這個來進行研議好 謝謝"},{"start":390.39,"end":415.919,"text":"那部長我現在就是根據你們今天的業務報告第九頁的第一段顯示國軍招募的階段的獲得率是破百嘛跟過去幾年一樣都超過100%但是我不曉得說本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒還是說要質疑你們做假做了一個完美的報表呢因為在報告的第十頁第三段也顯示今年的流盈利應該是"},{"start":417.259,"end":425.086,"text":"近年來都是最高的所以本席從國防部今天的報告兩項的數據整個看起來好像國軍都好像不缺人可是我們看過去幾年自願役的預算的原額109年到112年這四年間近年的自願役人數的高峰我們再往後看三年看到今年為止"},{"start":442.1,"end":466.785,"text":"編制元額的人數都是雪崩式的下跌光是最近這三年就完全就是完全的減少了整整一萬七千四百六十人等於三年內整個蒸發掉三十四個聯兵營所以難怪國防部的招募率都是連連都達標原來是你們把標準一直在下修本來一百分達不到但是你們就故意把它目標改成六十分"},{"start":467.225,"end":494.004,"text":"那樣都簡單的答標是這樣嗎應該不是這個樣子因為過去我想在我來之前他們的預算原額的這個編制要比我們實際用的這個金額要來的高所以常常會將人員維持會的部分要繳回國庫那現在開始就是說我們要何時的來編列所以我想這個何時的編列可以支援官方實質財力"},{"start":497.766,"end":511.796,"text":"委員好 我是資源規劃司司長其實最主要的原因還是因為我覺得是少子化的原因所以其實我們的可證原額的確是大量的來減少那的確前兩年我們都面臨到在就是人員維持費繳回的一個狀況"},{"start":512.857,"end":532.784,"text":"所以我们为了使国防预算能够做妥适的一个运用那所以我们就是希望能够核实编列所以今年我们就是更加的来精准的来计算这些的一个数字包括我们的招募的目标还有我们的离退的长数跟我们发薪的长数那就是希望能够更精准的来估算这个人员维持费的一个部分"},{"start":534.485,"end":539.207,"text":"因為過去都編的比較多現在是已經非常貼近於我們現在我們現在照這個問題來分析就是志願一整體人數所以不是真的人數變成減少而是預算緣和看你要怎麼去編那個"},{"start":554.235,"end":561.4,"text":"但是我們現在面對中共的武力越來越嚴重啊部隊編制員反而是這樣的越來越少那我們花了450億的預算向美國買了M1A2的戰車這是誰要來開啊編列2472億的採購的F16戰鬥機未來有人可以操作嗎那是不是因為美國現在一架F16都還沒有交貨所以"},{"start":580.151,"end":583.994,"text":"請問這個有人可以飛嗎所以部長你覺得面對中共的這樣的武力威脅但是我們因為少子化而這樣讓這個整個員額這樣減少那我們買那麼多裝備去把自願役的人力一再一再的砍那這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢"},{"start":600.665,"end":618.259,"text":"我們實際的我想在營的這個人數剛剛已經有提到了不管是流營率或不適合率都不適合的減少那流營率有增加那我們的招募的情況也比原來預期的要好所以實際的這個在營的這個人數沒有"},{"start":622.742,"end":636.11,"text":"像委員所講的說光看這個預算的元額數而是要看實際的在營的人數那實際在營人數事實上是沒有減少這樣的狀況因為我現在手中有這個陸軍今年的桌例這封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力的戰備"},{"start":641.033,"end":644.116,"text":"所以這些裝備都是哪些單位在用就是M1A2戰車是裝甲雲豹裝甲車是機部APAC的直升機是航特這些都是邊線比都比較嚴重的低落的單位但是沒有人沒有軍人那這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰"},{"start":660.923,"end":683.983,"text":"對 所以邊線比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%這個是我們一定要努力所以才會說針對這些邊線比比較低的特別是戰鬥部隊的話我們才會在4月1號調整他們的戰鬥部隊加急那這樣的話提高一個誘因我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊邊線比比較低的狀況"},{"start":685.168,"end":688.749,"text":"我是希望國安部必須把這個缺員的問題整個當作一個非常一個長期來問題的問題來改善雖然我們每年都要增加了國防預算幾百億幾百億的採購的這個裝備但為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢例如最短的短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪立法院通過的軍人加薪法三讀都已經通過了行政院還是賴著不給預算那"},{"start":715.014,"end":716.815,"text":"部長你上任到現在這段時間自願役的人數越來越少請問未來花幾百億幾千億採購這些裝備誰要來操作誰要來維修所以我想請問部長你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢"},{"start":730.342,"end":744.67,"text":"我想第一個跟委員說明我們實際的債能人數確實不是看預算原額的部分而是看實際的債能人數那事實上還沒有一個說像委員所講的下降的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":747.292,"end":760.523,"text":"事實上反而是我們現在有提升招募的一個效益然後也提升了流營率然後不適合的人數也下降那但是邊線比這個在戰鬥部隊這個部分確實我們應該要加強"},{"start":762.444,"end":779.137,"text":"所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構這也就是為什麼在4月1號我們要調整這個軍人待遇加急之外還要著重在戰鬥部隊加急的部分也就是說有些邊線比部分是比較高有些邊線比較低那我們就要加強這個整體的性質結構"},{"start":781.118,"end":795.845,"text":"將戰鬥部隊的加緊把它調升那這樣的一個整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在需要哪些部分需要人力的增加的一個這樣子的一個目的那這樣我覺得是有一個整體的規劃會比較好"},{"start":797.185,"end":819.963,"text":"好 本席還是提醒部長因為本席其實對你有很高的期待因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長所以也是很願意你都很願意推動一些改革是一個改革的部長然後未來改革當然是我們也是要讓基層的官兵真正的有感而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續的留在整個部隊一定要真心的去傾聽這整個基層官兵的心聲可以嗎"},{"start":822.825,"end":828.228,"text":"是 我們還是會持續的來整體的規劃檢討提升冠病的待遇這樣謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。首先要請教部長，之前空軍作為部隊飛行訓練用的部訓機F-5E，是不是在今年7月已經正式除役？"],["顧部長立雄：是除役……"],["李參謀長慶然：去年除役，今年7月除役的是RF-5E、偵察型的F5。"],["林委員憶君：請問一下，準備接替的勇鷹高教機是向誰購買的？有預計要交機幾架呢？"],["李參謀長慶然：我們的主合約是中科院，由中科院向漢翔公司次合約商來自製研發，明年預劃是交66架，今年預劃是交63架，到目前為止，是交了49架，有延遲40架的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：有延遲嘛，對不對？"],["李參謀長慶然：是！"],["林委員憶君：因為快11月了，我想一年都要過去了。當初國防部信誓旦旦說國防自主，海軍的海鯤號也是一直延宕、都開不出來，連空軍的高教機也交不出來，那我們到底有沒有國防自主的能力？可以請部長回答一下嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這個部分當然就有一些狀況，包括像發動機的承商沒有辦法準時交運，在我們國防自主的發展當中，如果就這些關鍵的項目，像發動機這樣的事項，確實都會有沒有辦法完全能夠自主的部分，就可能發生這樣的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：我看勇鷹高教機的交機進度其實是已經落後了，想請教部長，現在勇鷹高教機已經交了幾架？原因為何？為什麼會延宕呢？還有外購系統的缺件品項是有哪一些？空軍有沒有去了解整個的原因是在哪裡？還有到底是中科院的問題，還是漢翔的問題，還是有一些不可抗力的因素呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我想策略上是漢翔公司外購的一些系統件，包括發動機、環控系統、起落架跟座艙罩爆破系統等等，在外購的部分沒有辦法準時交貨。"],["林委員憶君：所以是外購的系統，才造成整個都延宕嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望能夠來加強外購料件的查催。"],["林委員憶君：依照整個合約，我們看中科院是不是會對漢翔公司裁罰呢？除了計罰外，是不是有一些其他的解決方案呢？還有罰款是怎麼計算的？每天罰多少？罰款的金額有沒有一個上限？"],["顧部長立雄：就中科院來講，確實對漢翔有一個計罰的條款，我想後續我們就依約執行，漢翔公司所提出來的一些遲延原因、沒有辦法準時交貨的原因，我們會來了解，在了解之後，雙方就依約執行；如果有需要進行協調的部分，我們會交公共工程委員會來進行協調。"],["林委員憶君：這些罰款的錢會到哪裡去？是會回到國庫嗎？還是會進到中科院的小金庫裡面呢？"],["顧部長立雄：會回到國庫。"],["林委員憶君：整個會回到國庫嗎？確定嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有一部分的比例。"],["李院長世強：有30%的作業費是進到中科院的收入。"],["林委員憶君：所以30%是到中科院，然後70%是回到國庫嗎？"],["李院長世強：是。"],["林委員憶君：這些罰款其實應該要繳回國庫，因為這本來就是人民的納稅錢嘛！我在想為什麼是中科院，廠商延遲交貨的罰款，國防部竟然拿得那麼少，而不是全額，我覺得這樣的機制是有點奇怪，因為中科院是主合約商，如果漢翔準時交機，中科院還是賺錢；漢翔如果延宕交機，中科院還是一樣賺錢，當然這樣的話，不但可以裁罰，而且還可以多賺一筆漢翔的罰款入袋，我覺得天底下怎麼會有穩賺不賠、那麼好的生意，可不可以解釋一下？"],["李院長世強：委員，有關當時委製的整個合約機制，因為中科院是主合約商，所以說它的整個罰款是罰給中科院，中科院再按照罰款的比例，我們要繳國庫的就繳國庫，其他罰款就變成是中科院的業務收入。未來在類似的委製合約上，我們的確可以去檢討這個部分。"],["林委員憶君：所以中科院還是有責任嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：合約的部分應該要看歸責因素，中科院作為主合約商，假設是歸責於它，這個時候就產生合約上的責任；假設是歸責於漢翔，就有漢翔的責任。就這個部分，剛剛院長也提到了，我們可以來進行檢討相關罰款的一個……"],["林委員憶君：因為我想海鯤號測試的延宕，台船都要繳納罰款給海軍，這些錢其實都是進國庫的，我只是想勇鷹高教機如果延宕的罰款會進入中科院的口袋，如果是這樣的話，我覺得是不是應該全部繳回國庫呢？我本來想建議部長，是不是請國防部邀請相關的部會，就像剛才說的主計總處及公共工程委員會一起重新審視這樣的內容，有沒有不合理的地方、需不需要修正，不然，未來我們還有高達1.3兆的國防特別預算即將要編列，送來立法院審議，我們如何會安心同意這些預算使用呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們就這個來進行研議。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。部長，根據你們今天業務報告第9頁第1段顯示國軍招募階段獲得率是破百，跟過去幾年一樣，都超過百分之一百，不曉得本席是應該要誇讚你們國防部很棒，還是質疑你們做假、做了一份完美的報表呢？因為在報告第10頁第3段也顯示今年的留營率應該是近年來最高的，所以本席從國防部今天報告的兩項數據整個看起來，國軍好像都不缺人。可是我們看過去幾年志願役的預算員額，從109年到112年這四年間，近年志願役人數的高峰，我們再往後看三年，看到今年為止，編制員額的人數都是雪崩式下跌，光是最近這三年，減少了整整1萬7,460人，等於三年內整個蒸發掉34個聯兵營，難怪國防部的招募率都是年年達標，原來是你們把標準一直在下修，本來100分達不到，但是你們就故意把目標改成60分，就能簡單的達標，是這樣嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，應該不是這個樣子。因為過去在我來之前，他們預算員額的編制要比實際用的金額要來得高，所以常常會將人員維持費的部分繳回國庫，現在開始我們要覈實編列，如何覈實編列可以請資源規劃司稍微說明。"],["藍司長靜婷：委員好，我是資源規劃司司長。其實最主要的原因，我覺得還是少子化的原因，我們的可徵員額的確是大量減少，的確前兩年我們都面臨到人員維持費繳回的狀況，為了使國防預算能夠做妥適地運用，我們希望能夠覈實編列，所以今年我們更加精準來計算這些數字，包括招募目標，還有離退的常數跟發薪的常數，就是希望能夠更精準的來估算人員維持費的部分。"],["林委員憶君：因為我現在看整個……"],["顧部長立雄：因為過去都編得比較多，現在是已經非常貼近於我們實際的員額數。"],["林委員憶君：對！我們現在照這個問題來分析，如剛才我說的，志願役整體人數呈現下跌……"],["顧部長立雄：不是真的人數減少，而是預算員額，看你要怎麼去編那個……"],["林委員憶君：但是我們現在面對中共武力威脅越來越嚴重，部隊編制員額反而是越來越少，我們花了450億的預算向美國買M1A2T的戰車，這是誰要來開啊？編列2,472億採購F-16戰鬥機，未來有人可以操作嗎？是不是因為美國現在一架F-16都還沒有交貨？請問這個有人可以飛嗎？所以部長，你覺得面對中共的武力威脅，但是我們因為少子化，讓整個員額減少，我們買那麼多裝備，卻把志願役的人力一再一再地砍，這樣以後是誰要來操作這些呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們實際的在營人數，剛剛已經有提到了，不適服的減少，留營率有增加，我們的招募情況也比原來預期的要好，所以實際的在營人數不是像委員所講的，光看預算員額數，而是要看實際的在營人數，實際的在營人數事實上是沒有減少的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：我現在手中有陸軍今年的桌曆，這個封面應該都是陸軍最精銳的主力戰備，這些戰備、裝備都是哪些單位在用？M1A2T戰車是裝甲，雲豹甲車是機步，阿帕契直升機是航特，這些都是編現比比較嚴重低落的單位，要是沒有軍人，這些幾百億的裝備根本都沒有辦法作戰啊！"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以編現比要進一步提升到我們的目標80%，這個是我們一定要努力的，所以針對這些編現比比較低的，特別是戰鬥部隊，我們才會在4月1日調增他們的戰鬥部隊加給，這樣的話，提高一個誘因，我們希望能夠透過這樣的誘因來逐步改善戰鬥部隊編現比比較低的狀況。"],["林委員憶君：我是希望國防部必須把這個缺員的問題當作一個長期的問題來改善，既然我們每年都要增加國防預算幾百億來採購裝備，為什麼都不投一些資源在改善官兵的待遇呢？例如短期內立竿見影的方式就是加薪，立法院都已經三讀通過軍人加薪的修法了，行政院還是賴著不給預算。部長，你上任到現在這段時間，志願役的人數越來越少，請問未來花幾百億、幾千億採購這些裝備，誰要來操作？誰要來維修？所以我想請問部長，你認為這一筆預算該不該編呢？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個、跟委員說明，我們實際的在營人數確實不是看預算員額的部分，而是看實際的在營人數，事實上，它並沒有像委員所講的下降這樣的狀況，反而我們現在有提升招募的效益，也提升了留營率，不適服的人數也下降，但是在戰鬥部隊的編現比這個部分，確實我們應該要加強。所以我們會整體檢視整個軍人待遇的結構，這也就是為什麼在4月1日我們除調增志願役加給之外，還要著重在戰鬥部隊加給的部分，也就是有些編現比是比較高，有些編現比比較低，我們要加強整體的薪資結構，將戰鬥部隊的加給調升，這樣整體的規劃會比較適切的合乎我們現在哪些部分需要人力增加這樣的目的，我覺得這樣有一個整體的規劃會比較好。"],["林委員憶君：好，本席還是提醒部長，本席其實對你有很高的期待，因為你是國軍喜歡的福利熊部長，你也都很願意推動一些改革，是一個改革的部長，未來改革當然我們也是要讓基層官兵真正的有感，而且讓這些招募進來的官兵都願意繼續留在整個部隊，一定要真心的去傾聽整個基層官兵的心聲，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們還是會持續的來整體規劃檢討，提升官兵的待遇。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱志偉，邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束；委員口頭質詢及未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，請國防部以書面於兩週內答復；委員有約定期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，散會。","散會（13時）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-8","speakers":["馬文君","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","林德福","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林憶君"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00004"}}}