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\"來\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 1013.314, \"end\": 1013.494, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 1013.494, \"end\": 1013.695, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 1013.695, \"end\": 1013.815, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1013.815, \"end\": 1013.835, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,542 --> 00:00:08,196\n好謝謝主席有請我們NCC陳代主委請陳主委\n\n2\n00:00:14,566 --> 00:00:39,514\n主委好首先還是跟你講一下我們看到的打炸的一個情況不光是我們看到的有看到特別你們臉書特別破文終於努力有成在今年1月16號特別講打炸措施建校因為你針對簡訊防堵的一個部分減少50%的簡訊則數而且表哥也做出來到底是建校還是那個笑容的校\n\n3\n00:00:40,194 --> 00:00:58,968\n那經過了時間的考驗那我們也看到了你們的臉書出來之後我們在警政署警政署的一個資料就是說那既然見效了我覺得民眾要有感就民眾沒什麼都被騙也沒什麼財損那我坦白講那就是真的那種效果的效\n\n4\n00:00:59,808 --> 00:01:26,124\n結果警政署在看你看113年113年因為你114年1月鋪的我想113年曾經在簡訊詐騙簡訊跟你業務沒關的我沒拿出來簡訊詐騙隨之金額警政署統計警政署簡訊統計也是很保守的一堆的黑數也沒報大概2億多結果到了今年度1到9月才到9月而已他的件數保證\n\n5\n00:01:27,265 --> 00:01:41,771\n超過一定的比例那到目前為止已經比去年一整年成長的48%到了3.19億那所以省紀部的在今年的報告就出來在中間這個\n\n6\n00:01:43,132 --> 00:01:57,411\n他說我也覺得你們要去研究一下審議報告說你的分項指標與預期目標缺乏直接的關聯你很開心成功了我贏了結果一二三名的不是你啊我們在嗨什麼呢\n\n7\n00:01:58,352 --> 00:02:25,303\n他說難以衡量打詐績效那不就要請教你因為打詐2.0綱領2.0你就負責賭詐嘛因為是源頭的一個管理賭詐也是蠻重要的我講數位部啊有些是在源頭嘛那你這個的部分你覺得有沒有什麼在審計部的一個說法之下你有沒有一個更具體的指標你不能說檢驗金減50%就嗨起來了你自己的想法是怎麼樣看到審計部這個報告\n\n8\n00:02:27,224 --> 00:02:43,885\n柯委員報告這邊這張圖的右邊他是個金額那我們在打在指揮中心大概也有一些訊息說目前每一個報案的案件涉及的一些金額其實跟過往其實那個金額都有在提高所以他的件數\n\n9\n00:02:45,006 --> 00:03:00,482\n也許是真的減少可是件數加上每一件的損失被炸的件數撐起來可能就增加那這一塊跟委員報告在我們的這個警訊設炸的數目上確實165中心提供給我們的是有在下降\n\n10\n00:03:02,591 --> 00:03:25,543\n好那就是警政署的資料不太正確不是還是審計部的報告不太正確就是項目不一樣因為其中沒有我的意見就是你們都是公家機關都是行政院下面的當然審計部說一個中間人去做這個部分我倒是覺得今天團隊都在這裡下次當然在PO文的時候我有努力會有一定的成果這是一個指標\n\n11\n00:03:26,664 --> 00:03:41,165\n但是你到底有沒有見效果我希望你們能夠綜合評估好不好好沒問題能夠再想出一些更好的一個KPI那第二個呢前幾天看你們PO文嘛大概就昨天還前天嘛事實澄清啊欸這是不是事實\n\n12\n00:03:43,444 --> 00:04:03,970\n跟委報這是事實這是事實嗎對這是事實我寫這是事實就是有關媒體報導各級省26年敗就是事實NCC敗訴嘛NCCPO的FB是正確的這個剛剛講的我說你有PO文但我問你這是不是事實你講這事實也是對嘛\n\n13\n00:04:04,910 --> 00:04:20,306\n我只是講簡單來講你們PO的那個事實是你們那一方的view去看的那你們在文字中也有寫我們確定敗訴欺騙所以這也是事實都是事實只是用表格呈現的方式不太一樣但是我們現在討論26個案件裁罰案件\n\n14\n00:04:24,028 --> 00:04:41,041\n你們現在已經確定輸了七件我倒過來請教你在行政裁罰你知道政府是有權力的人不管是衛生局你做錯了什麼事情法律都在我手上然後你來說明所有的決策都在我手上數月你還要回到我手上你知道嗎你們是手中握有權力工具的人\n\n15\n00:04:41,661 --> 00:05:02,106\n然後你現在你們做了按照你們所有的法規你們所有的team做出來居然有七件將近30%敗訴不知道你滿不滿意對於這樣的因為當時可能不是你啦你覺得這樣的一個品質是未來我們NCC會按照這樣的水準繼續努力下去還是需要有什麼可以檢討的空間嗎\n\n16\n00:05:03,666 --> 00:05:24,596\n我們行政署份各個機關都一樣都會力求這個符合公證然後也符合事實那這個是過去委員會的根據依衛廣法相關的一些來處理的那相對人當然是他有救濟的權利那法院的判決其實我們都以尊重\n\n17\n00:05:27,337 --> 00:05:53,205\n好簡單來講我們之前葉委員講的各級審各審級26連敗沒錯嘛因為七八件案子我輸了我反正一直打一直打一直弄嘛那這個的部分也沒錯嘛那現在確定以這個未查證事實啊你們相關的處罰總共有七件敗訴你們也有說明七件敗訴總共要還他多少錢請說明一下七件敗訴好像是一百一百多萬\n\n18\n00:05:55,091 --> 00:06:19,824\n三百二十萬一百多還三百多三百二十萬還了沒有都給了嗎還了一百二十萬還一百五十萬一百二十那現在其他人都已經敗訴確定了還不還不想還因為我們有跟中天聯繫他們是要連那個數貸費用一起來申請\n\n19\n00:06:22,645 --> 00:06:44,439\n好啦那個代理主委我覺得二十六年拜請你們不要這麼小看你們PO那個文我覺得只是凸顯你們的一個尷尬你知道嗎尷尬第一個你是有權利的人去做裁罰我們看包括地方政府中央政府很多部分按照他手上拿的法規他定的\n\n20\n00:06:45,599 --> 00:07:01,666\n他的法規他要用他手上的工具加上你們每一個部分一般的人對不對或是說公司你們有自己的法務處法務機構你們有外聘律師你們坦白講是兵強馬壯你們做出來一個決定我坦白講這樣的一個效度\n\n21\n00:07:02,446 --> 00:07:26,863\n明顯是有問題的我不要講說是刻意的是誤導的但是像這個能夠26連敗我覺得有兩個問題第一個26連敗為什麼民眾不能問你沒連敗你還要持續上訴一個案子有些更審三次四次每一次律師費多少請說明裁處案的中間裁處案的平均下來大概\n\n22\n00:07:29,264 --> 00:07:57,143\n大概12萬12萬十幾萬所以沒事你不要問啦假設我是開玩笑的律師要不要上訴要要就12萬啊這到底在幹什麼啊因為你一個案子同樣理由耶我覺得真的很low你知道嗎你們上訴了兵搶馬撞部隊你已經敗訴囉不行我們再上訴理由弄一半兵搶馬撞NCG整個軍用第二次敗訴不行\n\n23\n00:07:58,064 --> 00:08:20,595\n我看到我不知道莫名其妙我告訴你人民可不可以問你當然可以你有沒有花人民的錢我告訴你你是私人機構我不用問你你們錢我的感覺就是說沒關係啊人民的錢很好用啊很香啊一場12萬我就繼續打啊我管它是什麼我覺得這真的是很離譜尤其是這欺騙敗訴是非常高的\n\n24\n00:08:21,335 --> 00:08:44,962\n為什麼因為中天的這樣的案子發生在108109年這兩年你們有裁處的案件在108年87件裁罰的109年94件兩年總共不是中天的26件是181件其他我們剛才問那剩下150幾件呢請教也是幾件的敗訴呢還是撤銷罰款呢\n\n25\n00:08:46,583 --> 00:09:12,138\n跟委員報告其他大部分是截廣不分節目跟廣告不分或賣健康食品的截廣不分的那案子那個是相對的事證明確應該都是相對事證明確嘛其他都沒有嘛所以這個其他其他也是一樣都力求證據明確我跟你講喔對證據確鑿嘛所以你這個敗訴就表示證據不確鑿證據不確鑿你還要跟同樣案子跟人家弄三四次我覺得在一個政府機關這是蠻扯的第二個\n\n26\n00:09:13,178 --> 00:09:29,413\n你們違反新聞事實的這個流程我真的希望你們能夠檢討未來NC再重新組合不要這樣讓人家我不知道是內部在惡搞之前還是讓人家有這種感覺我們來看一下這你們的流程不是我寫的你們給我的第一個電視新聞違反事實查證怎麼處理\n\n27\n00:09:31,107 --> 00:10:00,187\n五個流程最後下一條你們寫的喔處理流程最快30天一個月嘛合理嘛那包括什麼呢從民政申訴開始因為民眾申訴的量很大啊搞不好都同一案件嘛合理嘛你要濃縮嘛要精確化嘛民眾申訴然後開始通知電視台申訴你們就開始討論喔經過你們內部的法務處法務處長在哪裡法務處有幾位法律背景有多少人你在那邊講就好\n\n28\n00:10:02,406 --> 00:10:31,671\n都是法律背景好好請坐不管是律師或相關具有律師能力的人你們在內部已經在討論了我在講什麼你們在後面的敗訴一件都很扯的原因是拜託你們兵強馬壯從剛開始收到訊息就在討論了合不合規要不要罰怎麼樣你們內部就討論討論出來的項目剔除掉九成對不對也會相同然後再來進入第三關發函給電視台請問一下你申訴你的意見是什麼\n\n29\n00:10:34,290 --> 00:11:00,084\n之後就進到內容諮詢委員會哇這個太有趣了內容諮詢委員會是什麼啊他名單51個人對不對對然後是誰決定的誰勾選的主任委員主委勾選的好每一次要案子組成內容諮詢委員會要勾選19個人出來19個人出來誰勾選的也是主任委員\n\n30\n00:11:01,431 --> 00:11:15,754\n我的天啊然後51個人19個人51個人不用公告周知嘛按照你們的規定是要卸任之後一個月才告訴嘛就是秘密我們新秀店都跟盧委員所講我們未來借期之後會公告\n\n31\n00:11:17,383 --> 00:11:46,059\n他在那邊看兩年沒有人知道發生什麼事情然後所有人都你選的我真的心裡想你有沒有看過少年足球少年足球不是少年足球球證旁證主辦協辦都是我的人你跟我玩什麼我跟你講你後面的敗訴扯丟人用人民的錢你們是玩不玩到最後敗你們真的是很丟臉你不要跟企業他輸了幾次來去比\n\n32\n00:11:46,599 --> 00:12:15,001\n你們從剛開始就法務處到最後資訊委員會也有一堆的律師法律人還有當然公民團體一堆嘛我沒有一件啊你選的我也不知道到現在不知道是誰啊沒有人知道是誰啊官員報告裡頭還有業者代表還有業界代表工協會代表等等好啦我要想要說的是你們全程包括最後NCC開委員會全程法律人陪同全程法務處外界的律師\n\n33\n00:12:16,357 --> 00:12:37,760\n你們夠了沒有你們最後決定發案給別人這是一個叫行政人員的不小心嗎跟行政有什麼關已經經過多位律師判讀的判讀之後還被打臉還欺騙書你們還覺得不嚴重我的天啊我要請教一下這個51位很多法律人有些律師職業律師\n\n34\n00:12:39,541 --> 00:12:57,816\n請問一下這51個人選有沒有最後作為你們最後啊這個在行政法院上訴委託12萬平均12萬的律師有還是沒有應該是沒有沒有都沒有齁不行嗎都迴避的不行都迴避條款所以不行更嚴重就表示\n\n35\n00:12:59,196 --> 00:13:16,323\n幾十位不同的律師然後我們居然還不斷的去輸掉我覺得這個東西你們真的要去好好檢討跟委員報告志強委員其實除了法律代表之外也有傳播的代表所以那個法律代表只是其中之一而已\n\n36\n00:13:17,711 --> 00:13:38,217\n我知道他提供的法律意見讓你處以決定開罰嘛那他的意見就是可罰嘛法律都已經確認就等於多組多人挺你們去做確認的那品質這麼差我是覺得未來的委員會是最後一關假設委員會再組成你們要好好去瞭解一下最後一個\n\n37\n00:13:39,827 --> 00:13:55,228\n而請教一下現在就是這個電視內容檢舉已經成案待罰了大概已經經過了內部剛剛第四關資訊委員會審查了不管審查結果是yesno啦\n\n38\n00:13:56,169 --> 00:14:14,364\n待處理的案件我們看一下目前目前第一名是三例總共13件第二名民事五件第三名年代五件第四名淨電事一件那我想請教一件事當然最後是民間的民眾的申訴這沒什麼問題因為有些比較爭議的\n\n39\n00:14:17,886 --> 00:14:45,216\n新聞一堆人檢舉嘛可能就像那個310個人他變成4個案件因為檢舉都類同我覺得這個沒有意見但我再請教一件事我們一直在問新任的委員NCC是一個獨立公平獨立公平能夠自己去判斷的一個每一個都說YES沒有問題那可是有些這個東西不要說我不知道你尷尬不尷尬你不覺得尷尬尷尬就別人了\n\n40\n00:14:47,337 --> 00:15:03,210\n112年還有112年的案子112年的委員你現在告訴我說抱歉啦因為委員缺額現在只有三位不能審嘛對不對那112年是幾位因為案件的處理到上委員會會有個時間\n\n41\n00:15:05,071 --> 00:15:33,409\n如果上委員會的時候已經是8月1號的話那時候已經沒有委員會議了注意一下你們還不如你們改一下改那個流程處理最快三年我就不會問你了嘛內容也已經寫了啊三十天嘛現在是三年喔那時候我覺得後面已經這個第二行的後面翁柏宗卸任是去年的12月1號經過我們修法的這我承認嘛後面的委員不足那都不算你的\n\n42\n00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:57,768\n13年有11個月有11個月是至少有4位委員7月31號前7位委員滿編到後面幾個月翁伯中還代理在嘛對不對4位委員都可以決策所以你這種的一個情況我是真的是覺得齁你剛剛講說你們的規定最快30天然後後面3年未解決\n\n43\n00:15:58,348 --> 00:16:21,863\n那是平均好OK那剩下所謂超越平均的都在這裡吧你覺得這個圖這樣好看嗎你覺得這樣好看嗎112年還有五件我覺得這個東西啊因為你是接任的代理主委啦沒有說要當然你也參與你當時因為但你不是主導但我覺得這種畫面留下來\n\n44\n00:16:23,427 --> 00:16:41,298\n我告訴你要一兩個月三個月就處理了你三年還沒有處理而且當時是委員滿編的我真的是期待啦如果NCC的委員重新再整理包括你這種不公開的51位選19位全部你一個人決定的\n\n45\n00:16:41,858 --> 00:16:53,835\n所以未來主委的良心變成非常非常重要但是我坦白講我到現在還是不太相信我期待NCC會越來越獨立越來越公正謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4542\t8196\t好謝謝主席有請我們NCC陳代主委請陳主委\n14566\t39514\t主委好 首先還是跟你講一下我們看到的打炸的一個情況不光是我們看到的有看到特別你們臉書特別破文終於努力有成在今年1月16號特別講打炸措施建校因為你針對簡訊防堵的一個部分減少50%的簡訊則數而且表哥也做出來到底是建校還是那個笑容的校\n40194\t58968\t那經過了時間的考驗那我們也看到了你們的臉書出來之後我們在警政署警政署的一個資料就是說那既然見效了我覺得民眾要有感就民眾沒什麼都被騙也沒什麼財損那我坦白講那就是真的那種效果的效\n59808\t86124\t結果警政署在看 你看113年113年 因為你114年1月鋪的我想113年曾經在簡訊詐騙 簡訊跟你業務沒關的我沒拿出來簡訊詐騙隨之金額 警政署統計警政署簡訊統計也是很保守的一堆的黑數也沒報 大概2億多結果到了今年度1到9月 才到9月而已他的件數保證\n87265\t101771\t超過一定的比例那到目前為止已經比去年一整年成長的48%到了3.19億那所以省紀部的在今年的報告就出來在中間這個\n103132\t117411\t他說 我也覺得你們要去研究一下 審議報告說你的分項指標與預期目標缺乏直接的關聯你很開心 成功了 我贏了結果一二三名的不是你啊 我們在嗨什麼呢\n118352\t145303\t他說難以衡量打詐績效那不就要請教你 因為打詐2.0 綱領2.0你就負責賭詐嘛 因為是源頭的一個管理賭詐也是蠻重要的我講數位部啊 有些是在源頭嘛那你這個的部分 你覺得有沒有什麼在審計部的一個說法之下你有沒有一個更具體的指標你不能說 檢驗金減50%就嗨起來了你自己的想法是怎麼樣看到審計部這個報告\n147224\t163885\t柯委員報告這邊這張圖的右邊他是個金額那我們在打在指揮中心大概也有一些訊息說目前每一個報案的案件涉及的一些金額其實跟過往其實那個金額都有在提高所以他的件數\n165006\t180482\t也許是真的減少可是件數加上每一件的損失被炸的件數撐起來可能就增加那這一塊跟委員報告在我們的這個警訊設炸的數目上確實165中心提供給我們的是有在下降\n182591\t205543\t好 那就是警政署的資料不太正確不是還是審計部的報告不太正確就是項目不一樣因為其中沒有我的意見就是你們都是公家機關都是行政院下面的當然審計部說一個中間人去做這個部分我倒是覺得今天團隊都在這裡下次當然在PO文的時候我有努力會有一定的成果這是一個指標\n206664\t221165\t但是 你到底有沒有見效果我希望你們能夠綜合評估 好不好好 沒問題能夠再想出一些更好的一個KPI那第二個呢前幾天看你們PO文嘛大概就昨天還前天嘛事實澄清啊 欸這是不是事實\n223444\t243970\t跟委報這是事實這是事實嗎對這是事實我寫這是事實就是有關媒體報導各級省26年敗就是事實NCC敗訴嘛NCCPO的FB是正確的這個剛剛講的我說你有PO文但我問你這是不是事實你講這事實也是對嘛\n244910\t260306\t我只是講簡單來講你們PO的那個事實是你們那一方的view去看的那你們在文字中也有寫我們確定敗訴 欺騙所以這也是事實 都是事實只是用表格呈現的方式不太一樣但是我們現在討論26個案件 裁罰案件\n264028\t281041\t你們現在已經確定輸了七件 我倒過來請教你在行政裁罰 你知道政府是有權力的人不管是衛生局 你做錯了什麼事情法律都在我手上 然後你來說明所有的決策都在我手上數月你還要回到我手上 你知道嗎你們是手中握有權力工具的人\n281661\t302106\t然後你現在你們做了 按照你們所有的法規你們所有的team做出來居然有七件將近30%敗訴不知道你滿不滿意對於這樣的因為當時可能不是你啦你覺得這樣的一個品質是未來我們NCC會按照這樣的水準繼續努力下去還是需要有什麼可以檢討的空間嗎\n303666\t324596\t我們行政署份各個機關都一樣都會力求這個符合公證然後也符合事實那這個是過去委員會的根據依衛廣法相關的一些來處理的那相對人當然是他有救濟的權利那法院的判決其實我們都以尊重\n327337\t353205\t好 簡單來講我們之前葉委員講的各級審各審級26連敗 沒錯嘛因為七八件案子 我輸了我反正一直打 一直打 一直弄嘛那這個的部分也沒錯嘛 那現在確定以這個未查證事實啊 你們相關的處罰總共有七件敗訴 你們也有說明七件敗訴總共要還他多少錢 請說明一下七件敗訴好像是一百一百多萬\n355091\t379824\t三百二十萬一百多還三百多三百二十萬還了沒有都給了嗎還了一百二十萬還一百五十萬一百二十那現在其他人都已經敗訴確定了還不還不想還因為我們有跟中天聯繫他們是要連那個數貸費用一起來申請\n382645\t404439\t好啦 那個代理主委我覺得二十六年拜 請你們不要這麼小看你們PO那個文我覺得只是凸顯你們的一個尷尬 你知道嗎 尷尬第一個你是有權利的人去做裁罰我們看包括地方政府 中央政府很多部分按照他手上拿的法規 他定的\n405599\t421666\t他的法規 他要用他手上的工具 加上你們每一個部分一般的人 對不對 或是說公司 你們有自己的法務處法務機構 你們有外聘律師 你們坦白講是兵強馬壯 你們做出來一個決定 我坦白講這樣的一個效度\n422446\t446863\t明顯是有問題的我不要講說是刻意的是誤導的但是像這個能夠26連敗我覺得有兩個問題第一個26連敗為什麼民眾不能問你沒連敗你還要持續上訴一個案子有些更審三次四次每一次律師費多少請說明裁處案的中間裁處案的平均下來大概\n449264\t477143\t大概12萬12萬 十幾萬所以沒事你不要問啦 假設我是開玩笑的律師要不要上訴 要要就12萬啊這到底在幹什麼啊因為你一個案子 同樣理由耶我覺得真的很low 你知道嗎你們上訴了 兵搶馬撞部隊你已經敗訴囉 不行我們再上訴 理由弄一半 兵搶馬撞NCG整個軍用 第二次敗訴 不行\n478064\t500595\t我看到 我不知道莫名其妙 我告訴你 人民可不可以問你當然可以 你有沒有花人民的錢我告訴你 你是私人機構 我不用問你你們錢 我的感覺就是說 沒關係啊人民的錢很好用啊 很香啊一場12萬我就繼續打啊 我管它是什麼我覺得 這真的是很離譜尤其是 這欺騙敗訴是非常高的\n501335\t524962\t為什麼 因為中天的這樣的案子發生在108 109年這兩年你們有裁處的案件在108年87件裁罰的109年94件兩年總共不是中天的26件是181件其他我們剛才問那剩下150幾件呢請教也是幾件的敗訴呢還是撤銷罰款呢\n526583\t552138\t跟委員報告 其他大部分是截廣不分 節目跟廣告不分或賣健康食品的截廣不分的那案子 那個是相對的事證明確 應該都是相對事證明確嘛 其他都沒有嘛所以這個其他 其他也是一樣 都力求證據明確我跟你講喔 對 證據確鑿嘛所以你這個敗訴就表示證據不確鑿證據不確鑿 你還要跟同樣案子 跟人家弄三四次我覺得在一個政府機關 這是蠻扯的 第二個\n553178\t569413\t你們違反新聞事實的這個流程我真的希望你們能夠檢討未來NC再重新組合不要這樣讓人家我不知道是內部在惡搞之前還是讓人家有這種感覺我們來看一下這你們的流程不是我寫的你們給我的第一個電視新聞違反事實查證怎麼處理\n571107\t600187\t五個流程 最後下一條你們寫的喔處理流程最快30天一個月嘛 合理嘛那包括什麼呢從民政申訴開始 因為民眾申訴的量很大啊搞不好都同一案件嘛 合理嘛你要濃縮嘛 要精確化嘛民眾申訴 然後開始通知電視台申訴你們就開始討論喔經過你們內部的法務處法務處長在哪裡法務處有幾位法律背景有多少人你在那邊講就好\n602406\t631671\t都是法律背景 好好請坐不管是律師或相關具有律師能力的人你們在內部已經在討論了我在講什麼你們在後面的敗訴一件都很扯的原因是拜託 你們兵強馬壯從剛開始收到訊息就在討論了合不合規 要不要罰 怎麼樣你們內部就討論 討論出來的項目剔除掉九成 對不對 也會相同然後再來進入第三關發函給電視台 請問一下你申訴你的意見是什麼\n634290\t660084\t之後 就進到內容諮詢委員會哇 這個太有趣了內容諮詢委員會是什麼啊他名單51個人對不對對然後是誰決定的 誰勾選的主任委員 主委勾選的好 每一次要案子組成內容諮詢委員會要勾選19個人出來19個人出來 誰勾選的也是主任委員\n661431\t675754\t我的天啊然後51個人19個人51個人不用公告周知嘛按照你們的規定是要卸任之後一個月才告訴嘛就是秘密我們新秀店都跟盧委員所講我們未來借期之後會公告\n677383\t706059\t他在那邊看兩年 沒有人知道發生什麼事情然後所有人都你選的我真的心裡想 你有沒有看過少年足球少年足球不是少年足球球證 旁證 主辦 協辦都是我的人 你跟我玩什麼我跟你講你後面的敗訴扯 丟人 用人民的錢你們是玩不玩 到最後敗你們真的是很丟臉你不要跟企業他輸了幾次來去比\n706599\t735001\t你們從剛開始就法務處到最後資訊委員會也有一堆的律師法律人還有當然公民團體一堆嘛我沒有一件啊你選的我也不知道到現在不知道是誰啊沒有人知道是誰啊官員報告裡頭還有業者代表還有業界代表工協會代表等等好啦我要想要說的是你們全程包括最後NCC開委員會全程法律人陪同全程法務處外界的律師\n736357\t757760\t你們夠了沒有 你們最後決定發案給別人這是一個叫行政人員的不小心嗎跟行政有什麼關 已經經過多位律師判讀的判讀之後還被打臉 還欺騙書你們還覺得不嚴重我的天啊 我要請教一下這個51位很多法律人有些律師 職業律師\n759541\t777816\t請問一下這51個人選有沒有最後作為你們最後啊這個在行政法院上訴委託12萬平均12萬的律師有還是沒有應該是沒有 沒有都沒有齁 不行嗎都迴避的 不行都迴避條款 所以不行更嚴重就表示\n779196\t796323\t幾十位不同的律師然後我們居然還不斷的去輸掉我覺得這個東西你們真的要去好好檢討跟委員報告 志強委員其實除了法律代表之外也有傳播的代表所以那個法律代表只是其中之一而已\n797711\t818217\t我知道他提供的法律意見讓你處以決定開罰嘛那他的意見就是可罰嘛法律都已經確認就等於多組多人挺你們去做確認的那品質這麼差我是覺得未來的委員會是最後一關假設委員會再組成你們要好好去瞭解一下最後一個\n819827\t835228\t而請教一下現在就是這個電視內容檢舉已經成案 待罰了大概已經經過了內部剛剛第四關資訊委員會審查了不管審查結果是yes no啦\n836169\t854364\t待處理的案件 我們看一下目前目前第一名是三例 總共13件第二名民事五件 第三名年代五件第四名淨電事一件那我想請教一件事 當然最後是民間的民眾的申訴 這沒什麼問題因為有些比較爭議的\n857886\t885216\t新聞一堆人檢舉嘛可能就像那個310個人他變成4個案件因為檢舉都類同我覺得這個沒有意見但我再請教一件事我們一直在問新任的委員NCC是一個獨立公平獨立公平能夠自己去判斷的一個每一個都說YES沒有問題那可是有些這個東西不要說我不知道你尷尬不尷尬你不覺得尷尬尷尬就別人了\n887337\t903210\t112年還有112年的案子112年的委員你現在告訴我說抱歉啦因為委員缺額現在只有三位不能審嘛對不對那112年是幾位因為案件的處理到上委員會會有個時間\n905071\t933409\t如果上委員會的時候已經是8月1號的話 那時候已經沒有委員會議了注意一下 你們還不如你們改一下 改那個流程處理最快三年我就不會問你了嘛內容也已經寫了啊 三十天嘛現在是三年喔那時候 我覺得後面已經這個第二行的後面翁柏宗卸任是去年的12月1號經過我們修法的 這我承認嘛後面的委員不足 那都不算你的\n935210\t957768\t13年有11個月有11個月是至少有4位委員7月31號前7位委員滿編到後面幾個月翁伯中還代理在嘛對不對 4位委員都可以決策所以你這種的一個情況我是真的是覺得齁你剛剛講說你們的規定最快30天然後後面3年未解決\n958348\t981863\t那是平均好 OK那剩下所謂超越平均的都在這裡吧你覺得這個圖這樣好看嗎你覺得這樣好看嗎112年還有五件我覺得這個東西啊因為你是接任的代理主委啦沒有說要當然你也參與你當時因為但你不是主導但我覺得這種畫面留下來\n983427\t1001298\t我告訴你 要一兩個月三個月就處理了你三年還沒有處理而且當時是委員滿編的我真的是期待啦如果NCC的委員重新再整理包括你這種不公開的51位選19位全部你一個人決定的\n1001858\t1013835\t所以未來主委的良心變成非常非常重要但是我坦白講我到現在還是不太相信我期待NCC會越來越獨立越來越公正謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"好謝謝主席有請我們NCC陳代主委請陳主委\n主委好 首先還是跟你講一下我們看到的打炸的一個情況不光是我們看到的有看到特別你們臉書特別破文終於努力有成在今年1月16號特別講打炸措施建校因為你針對簡訊防堵的一個部分減少50%的簡訊則數而且表哥也做出來到底是建校還是那個笑容的校\n那經過了時間的考驗那我們也看到了你們的臉書出來之後我們在警政署警政署的一個資料就是說那既然見效了我覺得民眾要有感就民眾沒什麼都被騙也沒什麼財損那我坦白講那就是真的那種效果的效\n結果警政署在看 你看113年113年 因為你114年1月鋪的我想113年曾經在簡訊詐騙 簡訊跟你業務沒關的我沒拿出來簡訊詐騙隨之金額 警政署統計警政署簡訊統計也是很保守的一堆的黑數也沒報 大概2億多結果到了今年度1到9月 才到9月而已他的件數保證\n超過一定的比例那到目前為止已經比去年一整年成長的48%到了3.19億那所以省紀部的在今年的報告就出來在中間這個\n他說 我也覺得你們要去研究一下 審議報告說你的分項指標與預期目標缺乏直接的關聯你很開心 成功了 我贏了結果一二三名的不是你啊 我們在嗨什麼呢\n他說難以衡量打詐績效那不就要請教你 因為打詐2.0 綱領2.0你就負責賭詐嘛 因為是源頭的一個管理賭詐也是蠻重要的我講數位部啊 有些是在源頭嘛那你這個的部分 你覺得有沒有什麼在審計部的一個說法之下你有沒有一個更具體的指標你不能說 檢驗金減50%就嗨起來了你自己的想法是怎麼樣看到審計部這個報告\n柯委員報告這邊這張圖的右邊他是個金額那我們在打在指揮中心大概也有一些訊息說目前每一個報案的案件涉及的一些金額其實跟過往其實那個金額都有在提高所以他的件數\n也許是真的減少可是件數加上每一件的損失被炸的件數撐起來可能就增加那這一塊跟委員報告在我們的這個警訊設炸的數目上確實165中心提供給我們的是有在下降\n好 那就是警政署的資料不太正確不是還是審計部的報告不太正確就是項目不一樣因為其中沒有我的意見就是你們都是公家機關都是行政院下面的當然審計部說一個中間人去做這個部分我倒是覺得今天團隊都在這裡下次當然在PO文的時候我有努力會有一定的成果這是一個指標\n但是 你到底有沒有見效果我希望你們能夠綜合評估 好不好好 沒問題能夠再想出一些更好的一個KPI那第二個呢前幾天看你們PO文嘛大概就昨天還前天嘛事實澄清啊 欸這是不是事實\n跟委報這是事實這是事實嗎對這是事實我寫這是事實就是有關媒體報導各級省26年敗就是事實NCC敗訴嘛NCCPO的FB是正確的這個剛剛講的我說你有PO文但我問你這是不是事實你講這事實也是對嘛\n我只是講簡單來講你們PO的那個事實是你們那一方的view去看的那你們在文字中也有寫我們確定敗訴 欺騙所以這也是事實 都是事實只是用表格呈現的方式不太一樣但是我們現在討論26個案件 裁罰案件\n你們現在已經確定輸了七件 我倒過來請教你在行政裁罰 你知道政府是有權力的人不管是衛生局 你做錯了什麼事情法律都在我手上 然後你來說明所有的決策都在我手上數月你還要回到我手上 你知道嗎你們是手中握有權力工具的人\n然後你現在你們做了 按照你們所有的法規你們所有的team做出來居然有七件將近30%敗訴不知道你滿不滿意對於這樣的因為當時可能不是你啦你覺得這樣的一個品質是未來我們NCC會按照這樣的水準繼續努力下去還是需要有什麼可以檢討的空間嗎\n我們行政署份各個機關都一樣都會力求這個符合公證然後也符合事實那這個是過去委員會的根據依衛廣法相關的一些來處理的那相對人當然是他有救濟的權利那法院的判決其實我們都以尊重\n好 簡單來講我們之前葉委員講的各級審各審級26連敗 沒錯嘛因為七八件案子 我輸了我反正一直打 一直打 一直弄嘛那這個的部分也沒錯嘛 那現在確定以這個未查證事實啊 你們相關的處罰總共有七件敗訴 你們也有說明七件敗訴總共要還他多少錢 請說明一下七件敗訴好像是一百一百多萬\n三百二十萬一百多還三百多三百二十萬還了沒有都給了嗎還了一百二十萬還一百五十萬一百二十那現在其他人都已經敗訴確定了還不還不想還因為我們有跟中天聯繫他們是要連那個數貸費用一起來申請\n好啦 那個代理主委我覺得二十六年拜 請你們不要這麼小看你們PO那個文我覺得只是凸顯你們的一個尷尬 你知道嗎 尷尬第一個你是有權利的人去做裁罰我們看包括地方政府 中央政府很多部分按照他手上拿的法規 他定的\n他的法規 他要用他手上的工具 加上你們每一個部分一般的人 對不對 或是說公司 你們有自己的法務處法務機構 你們有外聘律師 你們坦白講是兵強馬壯 你們做出來一個決定 我坦白講這樣的一個效度\n明顯是有問題的我不要講說是刻意的是誤導的但是像這個能夠26連敗我覺得有兩個問題第一個26連敗為什麼民眾不能問你沒連敗你還要持續上訴一個案子有些更審三次四次每一次律師費多少請說明裁處案的中間裁處案的平均下來大概\n大概12萬12萬 十幾萬所以沒事你不要問啦 假設我是開玩笑的律師要不要上訴 要要就12萬啊這到底在幹什麼啊因為你一個案子 同樣理由耶我覺得真的很low 你知道嗎你們上訴了 兵搶馬撞部隊你已經敗訴囉 不行我們再上訴 理由弄一半 兵搶馬撞NCG整個軍用 第二次敗訴 不行\n我看到 我不知道莫名其妙 我告訴你 人民可不可以問你當然可以 你有沒有花人民的錢我告訴你 你是私人機構 我不用問你你們錢 我的感覺就是說 沒關係啊人民的錢很好用啊 很香啊一場12萬我就繼續打啊 我管它是什麼我覺得 這真的是很離譜尤其是 這欺騙敗訴是非常高的\n為什麼 因為中天的這樣的案子發生在108 109年這兩年你們有裁處的案件在108年87件裁罰的109年94件兩年總共不是中天的26件是181件其他我們剛才問那剩下150幾件呢請教也是幾件的敗訴呢還是撤銷罰款呢\n跟委員報告 其他大部分是截廣不分 節目跟廣告不分或賣健康食品的截廣不分的那案子 那個是相對的事證明確 應該都是相對事證明確嘛 其他都沒有嘛所以這個其他 其他也是一樣 都力求證據明確我跟你講喔 對 證據確鑿嘛所以你這個敗訴就表示證據不確鑿證據不確鑿 你還要跟同樣案子 跟人家弄三四次我覺得在一個政府機關 這是蠻扯的 第二個\n你們違反新聞事實的這個流程我真的希望你們能夠檢討未來NC再重新組合不要這樣讓人家我不知道是內部在惡搞之前還是讓人家有這種感覺我們來看一下這你們的流程不是我寫的你們給我的第一個電視新聞違反事實查證怎麼處理\n五個流程 最後下一條你們寫的喔處理流程最快30天一個月嘛 合理嘛那包括什麼呢從民政申訴開始 因為民眾申訴的量很大啊搞不好都同一案件嘛 合理嘛你要濃縮嘛 要精確化嘛民眾申訴 然後開始通知電視台申訴你們就開始討論喔經過你們內部的法務處法務處長在哪裡法務處有幾位法律背景有多少人你在那邊講就好\n都是法律背景 好好請坐不管是律師或相關具有律師能力的人你們在內部已經在討論了我在講什麼你們在後面的敗訴一件都很扯的原因是拜託 你們兵強馬壯從剛開始收到訊息就在討論了合不合規 要不要罰 怎麼樣你們內部就討論 討論出來的項目剔除掉九成 對不對 也會相同然後再來進入第三關發函給電視台 請問一下你申訴你的意見是什麼\n之後 就進到內容諮詢委員會哇 這個太有趣了內容諮詢委員會是什麼啊他名單51個人對不對對然後是誰決定的 誰勾選的主任委員 主委勾選的好 每一次要案子組成內容諮詢委員會要勾選19個人出來19個人出來 誰勾選的也是主任委員\n我的天啊然後51個人19個人51個人不用公告周知嘛按照你們的規定是要卸任之後一個月才告訴嘛就是秘密我們新秀店都跟盧委員所講我們未來借期之後會公告\n他在那邊看兩年 沒有人知道發生什麼事情然後所有人都你選的我真的心裡想 你有沒有看過少年足球少年足球不是少年足球球證 旁證 主辦 協辦都是我的人 你跟我玩什麼我跟你講你後面的敗訴扯 丟人 用人民的錢你們是玩不玩 到最後敗你們真的是很丟臉你不要跟企業他輸了幾次來去比\n你們從剛開始就法務處到最後資訊委員會也有一堆的律師法律人還有當然公民團體一堆嘛我沒有一件啊你選的我也不知道到現在不知道是誰啊沒有人知道是誰啊官員報告裡頭還有業者代表還有業界代表工協會代表等等好啦我要想要說的是你們全程包括最後NCC開委員會全程法律人陪同全程法務處外界的律師\n你們夠了沒有 你們最後決定發案給別人這是一個叫行政人員的不小心嗎跟行政有什麼關 已經經過多位律師判讀的判讀之後還被打臉 還欺騙書你們還覺得不嚴重我的天啊 我要請教一下這個51位很多法律人有些律師 職業律師\n請問一下這51個人選有沒有最後作為你們最後啊這個在行政法院上訴委託12萬平均12萬的律師有還是沒有應該是沒有 沒有都沒有齁 不行嗎都迴避的 不行都迴避條款 所以不行更嚴重就表示\n幾十位不同的律師然後我們居然還不斷的去輸掉我覺得這個東西你們真的要去好好檢討跟委員報告 志強委員其實除了法律代表之外也有傳播的代表所以那個法律代表只是其中之一而已\n我知道他提供的法律意見讓你處以決定開罰嘛那他的意見就是可罰嘛法律都已經確認就等於多組多人挺你們去做確認的那品質這麼差我是覺得未來的委員會是最後一關假設委員會再組成你們要好好去瞭解一下最後一個\n而請教一下現在就是這個電視內容檢舉已經成案 待罰了大概已經經過了內部剛剛第四關資訊委員會審查了不管審查結果是yes no啦\n待處理的案件 我們看一下目前目前第一名是三例 總共13件第二名民事五件 第三名年代五件第四名淨電事一件那我想請教一件事 當然最後是民間的民眾的申訴 這沒什麼問題因為有些比較爭議的\n新聞一堆人檢舉嘛可能就像那個310個人他變成4個案件因為檢舉都類同我覺得這個沒有意見但我再請教一件事我們一直在問新任的委員NCC是一個獨立公平獨立公平能夠自己去判斷的一個每一個都說YES沒有問題那可是有些這個東西不要說我不知道你尷尬不尷尬你不覺得尷尬尷尬就別人了\n112年還有112年的案子112年的委員你現在告訴我說抱歉啦因為委員缺額現在只有三位不能審嘛對不對那112年是幾位因為案件的處理到上委員會會有個時間\n如果上委員會的時候已經是8月1號的話 那時候已經沒有委員會議了注意一下 你們還不如你們改一下 改那個流程處理最快三年我就不會問你了嘛內容也已經寫了啊 三十天嘛現在是三年喔那時候 我覺得後面已經這個第二行的後面翁柏宗卸任是去年的12月1號經過我們修法的 這我承認嘛後面的委員不足 那都不算你的\n13年有11個月有11個月是至少有4位委員7月31號前7位委員滿編到後面幾個月翁伯中還代理在嘛對不對 4位委員都可以決策所以你這種的一個情況我是真的是覺得齁你剛剛講說你們的規定最快30天然後後面3年未解決\n那是平均好 OK那剩下所謂超越平均的都在這裡吧你覺得這個圖這樣好看嗎你覺得這樣好看嗎112年還有五件我覺得這個東西啊因為你是接任的代理主委啦沒有說要當然你也參與你當時因為但你不是主導但我覺得這種畫面留下來\n我告訴你 要一兩個月三個月就處理了你三年還沒有處理而且當時是委員滿編的我真的是期待啦如果NCC的委員重新再整理包括你這種不公開的51位選19位全部你一個人決定的\n所以未來主委的良心變成非常非常重要但是我坦白講我到現在還是不太相信我期待NCC會越來越獨立越來越公正謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.542 --> 00:08.196\n好謝謝主席有請我們NCC陳代主委請陳主委\n\n00:14.566 --> 00:39.514\n主委好首先還是跟你講一下我們看到的打炸的一個情況不光是我們看到的有看到特別你們臉書特別破文終於努力有成在今年1月16號特別講打炸措施建校因為你針對簡訊防堵的一個部分減少50%的簡訊則數而且表哥也做出來到底是建校還是那個笑容的校\n\n00:40.194 --> 00:58.968\n那經過了時間的考驗那我們也看到了你們的臉書出來之後我們在警政署警政署的一個資料就是說那既然見效了我覺得民眾要有感就民眾沒什麼都被騙也沒什麼財損那我坦白講那就是真的那種效果的效\n\n00:59.808 --> 01:26.124\n結果警政署在看你看113年113年因為你114年1月鋪的我想113年曾經在簡訊詐騙簡訊跟你業務沒關的我沒拿出來簡訊詐騙隨之金額警政署統計警政署簡訊統計也是很保守的一堆的黑數也沒報大概2億多結果到了今年度1到9月才到9月而已他的件數保證\n\n01:27.265 --> 01:41.771\n超過一定的比例那到目前為止已經比去年一整年成長的48%到了3.19億那所以省紀部的在今年的報告就出來在中間這個\n\n01:43.132 --> 01:57.411\n他說我也覺得你們要去研究一下審議報告說你的分項指標與預期目標缺乏直接的關聯你很開心成功了我贏了結果一二三名的不是你啊我們在嗨什麼呢\n\n01:58.352 --> 02:25.303\n他說難以衡量打詐績效那不就要請教你因為打詐2.0綱領2.0你就負責賭詐嘛因為是源頭的一個管理賭詐也是蠻重要的我講數位部啊有些是在源頭嘛那你這個的部分你覺得有沒有什麼在審計部的一個說法之下你有沒有一個更具體的指標你不能說檢驗金減50%就嗨起來了你自己的想法是怎麼樣看到審計部這個報告\n\n02:27.224 --> 02:43.885\n柯委員報告這邊這張圖的右邊他是個金額那我們在打在指揮中心大概也有一些訊息說目前每一個報案的案件涉及的一些金額其實跟過往其實那個金額都有在提高所以他的件數\n\n02:45.006 --> 03:00.482\n也許是真的減少可是件數加上每一件的損失被炸的件數撐起來可能就增加那這一塊跟委員報告在我們的這個警訊設炸的數目上確實165中心提供給我們的是有在下降\n\n03:02.591 --> 03:25.543\n好那就是警政署的資料不太正確不是還是審計部的報告不太正確就是項目不一樣因為其中沒有我的意見就是你們都是公家機關都是行政院下面的當然審計部說一個中間人去做這個部分我倒是覺得今天團隊都在這裡下次當然在PO文的時候我有努力會有一定的成果這是一個指標\n\n03:26.664 --> 03:41.165\n但是你到底有沒有見效果我希望你們能夠綜合評估好不好好沒問題能夠再想出一些更好的一個KPI那第二個呢前幾天看你們PO文嘛大概就昨天還前天嘛事實澄清啊欸這是不是事實\n\n03:43.444 --> 04:03.970\n跟委報這是事實這是事實嗎對這是事實我寫這是事實就是有關媒體報導各級省26年敗就是事實NCC敗訴嘛NCCPO的FB是正確的這個剛剛講的我說你有PO文但我問你這是不是事實你講這事實也是對嘛\n\n04:04.910 --> 04:20.306\n我只是講簡單來講你們PO的那個事實是你們那一方的view去看的那你們在文字中也有寫我們確定敗訴欺騙所以這也是事實都是事實只是用表格呈現的方式不太一樣但是我們現在討論26個案件裁罰案件\n\n04:24.028 --> 04:41.041\n你們現在已經確定輸了七件我倒過來請教你在行政裁罰你知道政府是有權力的人不管是衛生局你做錯了什麼事情法律都在我手上然後你來說明所有的決策都在我手上數月你還要回到我手上你知道嗎你們是手中握有權力工具的人\n\n04:41.661 --> 05:02.106\n然後你現在你們做了按照你們所有的法規你們所有的team做出來居然有七件將近30%敗訴不知道你滿不滿意對於這樣的因為當時可能不是你啦你覺得這樣的一個品質是未來我們NCC會按照這樣的水準繼續努力下去還是需要有什麼可以檢討的空間嗎\n\n05:03.666 --> 05:24.596\n我們行政署份各個機關都一樣都會力求這個符合公證然後也符合事實那這個是過去委員會的根據依衛廣法相關的一些來處理的那相對人當然是他有救濟的權利那法院的判決其實我們都以尊重\n\n05:27.337 --> 05:53.205\n好簡單來講我們之前葉委員講的各級審各審級26連敗沒錯嘛因為七八件案子我輸了我反正一直打一直打一直弄嘛那這個的部分也沒錯嘛那現在確定以這個未查證事實啊你們相關的處罰總共有七件敗訴你們也有說明七件敗訴總共要還他多少錢請說明一下七件敗訴好像是一百一百多萬\n\n05:55.091 --> 06:19.824\n三百二十萬一百多還三百多三百二十萬還了沒有都給了嗎還了一百二十萬還一百五十萬一百二十那現在其他人都已經敗訴確定了還不還不想還因為我們有跟中天聯繫他們是要連那個數貸費用一起來申請\n\n06:22.645 --> 06:44.439\n好啦那個代理主委我覺得二十六年拜請你們不要這麼小看你們PO那個文我覺得只是凸顯你們的一個尷尬你知道嗎尷尬第一個你是有權利的人去做裁罰我們看包括地方政府中央政府很多部分按照他手上拿的法規他定的\n\n06:45.599 --> 07:01.666\n他的法規他要用他手上的工具加上你們每一個部分一般的人對不對或是說公司你們有自己的法務處法務機構你們有外聘律師你們坦白講是兵強馬壯你們做出來一個決定我坦白講這樣的一個效度\n\n07:02.446 --> 07:26.863\n明顯是有問題的我不要講說是刻意的是誤導的但是像這個能夠26連敗我覺得有兩個問題第一個26連敗為什麼民眾不能問你沒連敗你還要持續上訴一個案子有些更審三次四次每一次律師費多少請說明裁處案的中間裁處案的平均下來大概\n\n07:29.264 --> 07:57.143\n大概12萬12萬十幾萬所以沒事你不要問啦假設我是開玩笑的律師要不要上訴要要就12萬啊這到底在幹什麼啊因為你一個案子同樣理由耶我覺得真的很low你知道嗎你們上訴了兵搶馬撞部隊你已經敗訴囉不行我們再上訴理由弄一半兵搶馬撞NCG整個軍用第二次敗訴不行\n\n07:58.064 --> 08:20.595\n我看到我不知道莫名其妙我告訴你人民可不可以問你當然可以你有沒有花人民的錢我告訴你你是私人機構我不用問你你們錢我的感覺就是說沒關係啊人民的錢很好用啊很香啊一場12萬我就繼續打啊我管它是什麼我覺得這真的是很離譜尤其是這欺騙敗訴是非常高的\n\n08:21.335 --> 08:44.962\n為什麼因為中天的這樣的案子發生在108109年這兩年你們有裁處的案件在108年87件裁罰的109年94件兩年總共不是中天的26件是181件其他我們剛才問那剩下150幾件呢請教也是幾件的敗訴呢還是撤銷罰款呢\n\n08:46.583 --> 09:12.138\n跟委員報告其他大部分是截廣不分節目跟廣告不分或賣健康食品的截廣不分的那案子那個是相對的事證明確應該都是相對事證明確嘛其他都沒有嘛所以這個其他其他也是一樣都力求證據明確我跟你講喔對證據確鑿嘛所以你這個敗訴就表示證據不確鑿證據不確鑿你還要跟同樣案子跟人家弄三四次我覺得在一個政府機關這是蠻扯的第二個\n\n09:13.178 --> 09:29.413\n你們違反新聞事實的這個流程我真的希望你們能夠檢討未來NC再重新組合不要這樣讓人家我不知道是內部在惡搞之前還是讓人家有這種感覺我們來看一下這你們的流程不是我寫的你們給我的第一個電視新聞違反事實查證怎麼處理\n\n09:31.107 --> 10:00.187\n五個流程最後下一條你們寫的喔處理流程最快30天一個月嘛合理嘛那包括什麼呢從民政申訴開始因為民眾申訴的量很大啊搞不好都同一案件嘛合理嘛你要濃縮嘛要精確化嘛民眾申訴然後開始通知電視台申訴你們就開始討論喔經過你們內部的法務處法務處長在哪裡法務處有幾位法律背景有多少人你在那邊講就好\n\n10:02.406 --> 10:31.671\n都是法律背景好好請坐不管是律師或相關具有律師能力的人你們在內部已經在討論了我在講什麼你們在後面的敗訴一件都很扯的原因是拜託你們兵強馬壯從剛開始收到訊息就在討論了合不合規要不要罰怎麼樣你們內部就討論討論出來的項目剔除掉九成對不對也會相同然後再來進入第三關發函給電視台請問一下你申訴你的意見是什麼\n\n10:34.290 --> 11:00.084\n之後就進到內容諮詢委員會哇這個太有趣了內容諮詢委員會是什麼啊他名單51個人對不對對然後是誰決定的誰勾選的主任委員主委勾選的好每一次要案子組成內容諮詢委員會要勾選19個人出來19個人出來誰勾選的也是主任委員\n\n11:01.431 --> 11:15.754\n我的天啊然後51個人19個人51個人不用公告周知嘛按照你們的規定是要卸任之後一個月才告訴嘛就是秘密我們新秀店都跟盧委員所講我們未來借期之後會公告\n\n11:17.383 --> 11:46.059\n他在那邊看兩年沒有人知道發生什麼事情然後所有人都你選的我真的心裡想你有沒有看過少年足球少年足球不是少年足球球證旁證主辦協辦都是我的人你跟我玩什麼我跟你講你後面的敗訴扯丟人用人民的錢你們是玩不玩到最後敗你們真的是很丟臉你不要跟企業他輸了幾次來去比\n\n11:46.599 --> 12:15.001\n你們從剛開始就法務處到最後資訊委員會也有一堆的律師法律人還有當然公民團體一堆嘛我沒有一件啊你選的我也不知道到現在不知道是誰啊沒有人知道是誰啊官員報告裡頭還有業者代表還有業界代表工協會代表等等好啦我要想要說的是你們全程包括最後NCC開委員會全程法律人陪同全程法務處外界的律師\n\n12:16.357 --> 12:37.760\n你們夠了沒有你們最後決定發案給別人這是一個叫行政人員的不小心嗎跟行政有什麼關已經經過多位律師判讀的判讀之後還被打臉還欺騙書你們還覺得不嚴重我的天啊我要請教一下這個51位很多法律人有些律師職業律師\n\n12:39.541 --> 12:57.816\n請問一下這51個人選有沒有最後作為你們最後啊這個在行政法院上訴委託12萬平均12萬的律師有還是沒有應該是沒有沒有都沒有齁不行嗎都迴避的不行都迴避條款所以不行更嚴重就表示\n\n12:59.196 --> 13:16.323\n幾十位不同的律師然後我們居然還不斷的去輸掉我覺得這個東西你們真的要去好好檢討跟委員報告志強委員其實除了法律代表之外也有傳播的代表所以那個法律代表只是其中之一而已\n\n13:17.711 --> 13:38.217\n我知道他提供的法律意見讓你處以決定開罰嘛那他的意見就是可罰嘛法律都已經確認就等於多組多人挺你們去做確認的那品質這麼差我是覺得未來的委員會是最後一關假設委員會再組成你們要好好去瞭解一下最後一個\n\n13:39.827 --> 13:55.228\n而請教一下現在就是這個電視內容檢舉已經成案待罰了大概已經經過了內部剛剛第四關資訊委員會審查了不管審查結果是yesno啦\n\n13:56.169 --> 14:14.364\n待處理的案件我們看一下目前目前第一名是三例總共13件第二名民事五件第三名年代五件第四名淨電事一件那我想請教一件事當然最後是民間的民眾的申訴這沒什麼問題因為有些比較爭議的\n\n14:17.886 --> 14:45.216\n新聞一堆人檢舉嘛可能就像那個310個人他變成4個案件因為檢舉都類同我覺得這個沒有意見但我再請教一件事我們一直在問新任的委員NCC是一個獨立公平獨立公平能夠自己去判斷的一個每一個都說YES沒有問題那可是有些這個東西不要說我不知道你尷尬不尷尬你不覺得尷尬尷尬就別人了\n\n14:47.337 --> 15:03.210\n112年還有112年的案子112年的委員你現在告訴我說抱歉啦因為委員缺額現在只有三位不能審嘛對不對那112年是幾位因為案件的處理到上委員會會有個時間\n\n15:05.071 --> 15:33.409\n如果上委員會的時候已經是8月1號的話那時候已經沒有委員會議了注意一下你們還不如你們改一下改那個流程處理最快三年我就不會問你了嘛內容也已經寫了啊三十天嘛現在是三年喔那時候我覺得後面已經這個第二行的後面翁柏宗卸任是去年的12月1號經過我們修法的這我承認嘛後面的委員不足那都不算你的\n\n15:35.210 --> 15:57.768\n13年有11個月有11個月是至少有4位委員7月31號前7位委員滿編到後面幾個月翁伯中還代理在嘛對不對4位委員都可以決策所以你這種的一個情況我是真的是覺得齁你剛剛講說你們的規定最快30天然後後面3年未解決\n\n15:58.348 --> 16:21.863\n那是平均好OK那剩下所謂超越平均的都在這裡吧你覺得這個圖這樣好看嗎你覺得這樣好看嗎112年還有五件我覺得這個東西啊因為你是接任的代理主委啦沒有說要當然你也參與你當時因為但你不是主導但我覺得這種畫面留下來\n\n16:23.427 --> 16:41.298\n我告訴你要一兩個月三個月就處理了你三年還沒有處理而且當時是委員滿編的我真的是期待啦如果NCC的委員重新再整理包括你這種不公開的51位選19位全部你一個人決定的\n\n16:41.858 --> 16:53.835\n所以未來主委的良心變成非常非常重要但是我坦白講我到現在還是不太相信我期待NCC會越來越獨立越來越公正謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.542,"end":8.196,"text":"好謝謝主席有請我們NCC陳代主委請陳主委"},{"start":14.566,"end":39.514,"text":"主委好 首先還是跟你講一下我們看到的打炸的一個情況不光是我們看到的有看到特別你們臉書特別破文終於努力有成在今年1月16號特別講打炸措施建校因為你針對簡訊防堵的一個部分減少50%的簡訊則數而且表哥也做出來到底是建校還是那個笑容的校"},{"start":40.194,"end":58.968,"text":"那經過了時間的考驗那我們也看到了你們的臉書出來之後我們在警政署警政署的一個資料就是說那既然見效了我覺得民眾要有感就民眾沒什麼都被騙也沒什麼財損那我坦白講那就是真的那種效果的效"},{"start":59.808,"end":86.124,"text":"結果警政署在看 你看113年113年 因為你114年1月鋪的我想113年曾經在簡訊詐騙 簡訊跟你業務沒關的我沒拿出來簡訊詐騙隨之金額 警政署統計警政署簡訊統計也是很保守的一堆的黑數也沒報 大概2億多結果到了今年度1到9月 才到9月而已他的件數保證"},{"start":87.265,"end":101.771,"text":"超過一定的比例那到目前為止已經比去年一整年成長的48%到了3.19億那所以省紀部的在今年的報告就出來在中間這個"},{"start":103.132,"end":117.411,"text":"他說 我也覺得你們要去研究一下 審議報告說你的分項指標與預期目標缺乏直接的關聯你很開心 成功了 我贏了結果一二三名的不是你啊 我們在嗨什麼呢"},{"start":118.352,"end":145.303,"text":"他說難以衡量打詐績效那不就要請教你 因為打詐2.0 綱領2.0你就負責賭詐嘛 因為是源頭的一個管理賭詐也是蠻重要的我講數位部啊 有些是在源頭嘛那你這個的部分 你覺得有沒有什麼在審計部的一個說法之下你有沒有一個更具體的指標你不能說 檢驗金減50%就嗨起來了你自己的想法是怎麼樣看到審計部這個報告"},{"start":147.224,"end":163.885,"text":"柯委員報告這邊這張圖的右邊他是個金額那我們在打在指揮中心大概也有一些訊息說目前每一個報案的案件涉及的一些金額其實跟過往其實那個金額都有在提高所以他的件數"},{"start":165.006,"end":180.482,"text":"也許是真的減少可是件數加上每一件的損失被炸的件數撐起來可能就增加那這一塊跟委員報告在我們的這個警訊設炸的數目上確實165中心提供給我們的是有在下降"},{"start":182.591,"end":205.543,"text":"好 那就是警政署的資料不太正確不是還是審計部的報告不太正確就是項目不一樣因為其中沒有我的意見就是你們都是公家機關都是行政院下面的當然審計部說一個中間人去做這個部分我倒是覺得今天團隊都在這裡下次當然在PO文的時候我有努力會有一定的成果這是一個指標"},{"start":206.664,"end":221.165,"text":"但是 你到底有沒有見效果我希望你們能夠綜合評估 好不好好 沒問題能夠再想出一些更好的一個KPI那第二個呢前幾天看你們PO文嘛大概就昨天還前天嘛事實澄清啊 欸這是不是事實"},{"start":223.444,"end":243.97,"text":"跟委報這是事實這是事實嗎對這是事實我寫這是事實就是有關媒體報導各級省26年敗就是事實NCC敗訴嘛NCCPO的FB是正確的這個剛剛講的我說你有PO文但我問你這是不是事實你講這事實也是對嘛"},{"start":244.91,"end":260.306,"text":"我只是講簡單來講你們PO的那個事實是你們那一方的view去看的那你們在文字中也有寫我們確定敗訴 欺騙所以這也是事實 都是事實只是用表格呈現的方式不太一樣但是我們現在討論26個案件 裁罰案件"},{"start":264.028,"end":281.041,"text":"你們現在已經確定輸了七件 我倒過來請教你在行政裁罰 你知道政府是有權力的人不管是衛生局 你做錯了什麼事情法律都在我手上 然後你來說明所有的決策都在我手上數月你還要回到我手上 你知道嗎你們是手中握有權力工具的人"},{"start":281.661,"end":302.106,"text":"然後你現在你們做了 按照你們所有的法規你們所有的team做出來居然有七件將近30%敗訴不知道你滿不滿意對於這樣的因為當時可能不是你啦你覺得這樣的一個品質是未來我們NCC會按照這樣的水準繼續努力下去還是需要有什麼可以檢討的空間嗎"},{"start":303.666,"end":324.596,"text":"我們行政署份各個機關都一樣都會力求這個符合公證然後也符合事實那這個是過去委員會的根據依衛廣法相關的一些來處理的那相對人當然是他有救濟的權利那法院的判決其實我們都以尊重"},{"start":327.337,"end":353.205,"text":"好 簡單來講我們之前葉委員講的各級審各審級26連敗 沒錯嘛因為七八件案子 我輸了我反正一直打 一直打 一直弄嘛那這個的部分也沒錯嘛 那現在確定以這個未查證事實啊 你們相關的處罰總共有七件敗訴 你們也有說明七件敗訴總共要還他多少錢 請說明一下七件敗訴好像是一百一百多萬"},{"start":355.091,"end":379.824,"text":"三百二十萬一百多還三百多三百二十萬還了沒有都給了嗎還了一百二十萬還一百五十萬一百二十那現在其他人都已經敗訴確定了還不還不想還因為我們有跟中天聯繫他們是要連那個數貸費用一起來申請"},{"start":382.645,"end":404.439,"text":"好啦 那個代理主委我覺得二十六年拜 請你們不要這麼小看你們PO那個文我覺得只是凸顯你們的一個尷尬 你知道嗎 尷尬第一個你是有權利的人去做裁罰我們看包括地方政府 中央政府很多部分按照他手上拿的法規 他定的"},{"start":405.599,"end":421.666,"text":"他的法規 他要用他手上的工具 加上你們每一個部分一般的人 對不對 或是說公司 你們有自己的法務處法務機構 你們有外聘律師 你們坦白講是兵強馬壯 你們做出來一個決定 我坦白講這樣的一個效度"},{"start":422.446,"end":446.863,"text":"明顯是有問題的我不要講說是刻意的是誤導的但是像這個能夠26連敗我覺得有兩個問題第一個26連敗為什麼民眾不能問你沒連敗你還要持續上訴一個案子有些更審三次四次每一次律師費多少請說明裁處案的中間裁處案的平均下來大概"},{"start":449.264,"end":477.143,"text":"大概12萬12萬 十幾萬所以沒事你不要問啦 假設我是開玩笑的律師要不要上訴 要要就12萬啊這到底在幹什麼啊因為你一個案子 同樣理由耶我覺得真的很low 你知道嗎你們上訴了 兵搶馬撞部隊你已經敗訴囉 不行我們再上訴 理由弄一半 兵搶馬撞NCG整個軍用 第二次敗訴 不行"},{"start":478.064,"end":500.595,"text":"我看到 我不知道莫名其妙 我告訴你 人民可不可以問你當然可以 你有沒有花人民的錢我告訴你 你是私人機構 我不用問你你們錢 我的感覺就是說 沒關係啊人民的錢很好用啊 很香啊一場12萬我就繼續打啊 我管它是什麼我覺得 這真的是很離譜尤其是 這欺騙敗訴是非常高的"},{"start":501.335,"end":524.962,"text":"為什麼 因為中天的這樣的案子發生在108 109年這兩年你們有裁處的案件在108年87件裁罰的109年94件兩年總共不是中天的26件是181件其他我們剛才問那剩下150幾件呢請教也是幾件的敗訴呢還是撤銷罰款呢"},{"start":526.583,"end":552.138,"text":"跟委員報告 其他大部分是截廣不分 節目跟廣告不分或賣健康食品的截廣不分的那案子 那個是相對的事證明確 應該都是相對事證明確嘛 其他都沒有嘛所以這個其他 其他也是一樣 都力求證據明確我跟你講喔 對 證據確鑿嘛所以你這個敗訴就表示證據不確鑿證據不確鑿 你還要跟同樣案子 跟人家弄三四次我覺得在一個政府機關 這是蠻扯的 第二個"},{"start":553.178,"end":569.413,"text":"你們違反新聞事實的這個流程我真的希望你們能夠檢討未來NC再重新組合不要這樣讓人家我不知道是內部在惡搞之前還是讓人家有這種感覺我們來看一下這你們的流程不是我寫的你們給我的第一個電視新聞違反事實查證怎麼處理"},{"start":571.107,"end":600.187,"text":"五個流程 最後下一條你們寫的喔處理流程最快30天一個月嘛 合理嘛那包括什麼呢從民政申訴開始 因為民眾申訴的量很大啊搞不好都同一案件嘛 合理嘛你要濃縮嘛 要精確化嘛民眾申訴 然後開始通知電視台申訴你們就開始討論喔經過你們內部的法務處法務處長在哪裡法務處有幾位法律背景有多少人你在那邊講就好"},{"start":602.406,"end":631.671,"text":"都是法律背景 好好請坐不管是律師或相關具有律師能力的人你們在內部已經在討論了我在講什麼你們在後面的敗訴一件都很扯的原因是拜託 你們兵強馬壯從剛開始收到訊息就在討論了合不合規 要不要罰 怎麼樣你們內部就討論 討論出來的項目剔除掉九成 對不對 也會相同然後再來進入第三關發函給電視台 請問一下你申訴你的意見是什麼"},{"start":634.29,"end":660.084,"text":"之後 就進到內容諮詢委員會哇 這個太有趣了內容諮詢委員會是什麼啊他名單51個人對不對對然後是誰決定的 誰勾選的主任委員 主委勾選的好 每一次要案子組成內容諮詢委員會要勾選19個人出來19個人出來 誰勾選的也是主任委員"},{"start":661.431,"end":675.754,"text":"我的天啊然後51個人19個人51個人不用公告周知嘛按照你們的規定是要卸任之後一個月才告訴嘛就是秘密我們新秀店都跟盧委員所講我們未來借期之後會公告"},{"start":677.383,"end":706.059,"text":"他在那邊看兩年 沒有人知道發生什麼事情然後所有人都你選的我真的心裡想 你有沒有看過少年足球少年足球不是少年足球球證 旁證 主辦 協辦都是我的人 你跟我玩什麼我跟你講你後面的敗訴扯 丟人 用人民的錢你們是玩不玩 到最後敗你們真的是很丟臉你不要跟企業他輸了幾次來去比"},{"start":706.599,"end":735.001,"text":"你們從剛開始就法務處到最後資訊委員會也有一堆的律師法律人還有當然公民團體一堆嘛我沒有一件啊你選的我也不知道到現在不知道是誰啊沒有人知道是誰啊官員報告裡頭還有業者代表還有業界代表工協會代表等等好啦我要想要說的是你們全程包括最後NCC開委員會全程法律人陪同全程法務處外界的律師"},{"start":736.357,"end":757.76,"text":"你們夠了沒有 你們最後決定發案給別人這是一個叫行政人員的不小心嗎跟行政有什麼關 已經經過多位律師判讀的判讀之後還被打臉 還欺騙書你們還覺得不嚴重我的天啊 我要請教一下這個51位很多法律人有些律師 職業律師"},{"start":759.541,"end":777.816,"text":"請問一下這51個人選有沒有最後作為你們最後啊這個在行政法院上訴委託12萬平均12萬的律師有還是沒有應該是沒有 沒有都沒有齁 不行嗎都迴避的 不行都迴避條款 所以不行更嚴重就表示"},{"start":779.196,"end":796.323,"text":"幾十位不同的律師然後我們居然還不斷的去輸掉我覺得這個東西你們真的要去好好檢討跟委員報告 志強委員其實除了法律代表之外也有傳播的代表所以那個法律代表只是其中之一而已"},{"start":797.711,"end":818.217,"text":"我知道他提供的法律意見讓你處以決定開罰嘛那他的意見就是可罰嘛法律都已經確認就等於多組多人挺你們去做確認的那品質這麼差我是覺得未來的委員會是最後一關假設委員會再組成你們要好好去瞭解一下最後一個"},{"start":819.827,"end":835.228,"text":"而請教一下現在就是這個電視內容檢舉已經成案 待罰了大概已經經過了內部剛剛第四關資訊委員會審查了不管審查結果是yes no啦"},{"start":836.169,"end":854.364,"text":"待處理的案件 我們看一下目前目前第一名是三例 總共13件第二名民事五件 第三名年代五件第四名淨電事一件那我想請教一件事 當然最後是民間的民眾的申訴 這沒什麼問題因為有些比較爭議的"},{"start":857.886,"end":885.216,"text":"新聞一堆人檢舉嘛可能就像那個310個人他變成4個案件因為檢舉都類同我覺得這個沒有意見但我再請教一件事我們一直在問新任的委員NCC是一個獨立公平獨立公平能夠自己去判斷的一個每一個都說YES沒有問題那可是有些這個東西不要說我不知道你尷尬不尷尬你不覺得尷尬尷尬就別人了"},{"start":887.337,"end":903.21,"text":"112年還有112年的案子112年的委員你現在告訴我說抱歉啦因為委員缺額現在只有三位不能審嘛對不對那112年是幾位因為案件的處理到上委員會會有個時間"},{"start":905.071,"end":933.409,"text":"如果上委員會的時候已經是8月1號的話 那時候已經沒有委員會議了注意一下 你們還不如你們改一下 改那個流程處理最快三年我就不會問你了嘛內容也已經寫了啊 三十天嘛現在是三年喔那時候 我覺得後面已經這個第二行的後面翁柏宗卸任是去年的12月1號經過我們修法的 這我承認嘛後面的委員不足 那都不算你的"},{"start":935.21,"end":957.768,"text":"13年有11個月有11個月是至少有4位委員7月31號前7位委員滿編到後面幾個月翁伯中還代理在嘛對不對 4位委員都可以決策所以你這種的一個情況我是真的是覺得齁你剛剛講說你們的規定最快30天然後後面3年未解決"},{"start":958.348,"end":981.863,"text":"那是平均好 OK那剩下所謂超越平均的都在這裡吧你覺得這個圖這樣好看嗎你覺得這樣好看嗎112年還有五件我覺得這個東西啊因為你是接任的代理主委啦沒有說要當然你也參與你當時因為但你不是主導但我覺得這種畫面留下來"},{"start":983.427,"end":1001.298,"text":"我告訴你 要一兩個月三個月就處理了你三年還沒有處理而且當時是委員滿編的我真的是期待啦如果NCC的委員重新再整理包括你這種不公開的51位選19位全部你一個人決定的"},{"start":1001.858,"end":1013.835,"text":"所以未來主委的良心變成非常非常重要但是我坦白講我到現在還是不太相信我期待NCC會越來越獨立越來越公正謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請NCC陳代主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：主委好。首先還是跟你講一下，我們看到打詐的情況，看到你們特別在臉書po文：終於努力有成了，在今年1月16號，特別講打詐措施見效，因為針對簡訊防堵的部分減少50%的簡訊則數，而且表格也做出來了，請問到底是見效，還是見笑？經過了時間的考驗，既然見效了，我覺得民眾要有感，如果民眾沒什麼，只是被騙，也沒什麼財損啦！坦白講就是真的見效。結果警政署的資料，你114年1月po出來的113年在簡訊詐騙方面的成績，跟你業務沒關的我沒拿出來，根據警政署統計，警政署統計也是很保守的啦，簡訊詐騙損失金額一堆的黑數也沒報，大概兩億多，結果今年度1到9月，才到9月而已，件數保證超過一定的比例，到目前為止，已經比去年一整年成長了48%，到了3.19億，所以審計部今年的報告就指出，我也覺得你們要去研究一下，審計報告說，你們的分項指標與預期目標缺乏直接的關連，你很開心成功了，結果前三名不是你啊，你們在嗨什麼呢？然後他說難以衡量打詐績效，那就要請教你，因為根據打詐綱領2.0你們負責堵詐，因為是源頭的管理，堵詐也是蠻重要的，數位部有些也是在源頭，這部分你在審計部的說法之下，你有沒有一個更具體的指標？你不能說簡訊減50%就嗨起來了。看到審計部這個報告，你自己的想法怎麼樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這張圖右邊是金額，我們在打詐指揮中心也有得到一些訊息，目前每一個報案的案件涉及的金額跟過往相比都有在提高，所以件數也許是真的減少，可是每一件的損失、被詐的金額乘以件數，可能就增加。這一塊跟委員報告，在簡訊涉詐的數目上，165中心提供給我們的確實是有在下降。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那就是警政署的資料不太正確？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是。"],["魯委員明哲：還是審計部的報告不太正確？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是項目不一樣。"],["魯委員明哲：其中沒有我的意見啦，你們都是公家機關，都在行政院下面，當然審計部做一個中間人去做這個部分。我倒是覺得今天團隊都在這裡，下次再po文的時候，我有努力會有一定的成果，這是一個指標，但是到底有沒有效果，我希望你們能夠綜合評估，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題。"],["魯委員明哲：能夠再想出一些更好的KPI。","第二個，前幾天看你們po文，大概就昨天還前天，澄清事實，這是不是事實？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這是事實。"],["魯委員明哲：我寫的是事實，就是有關媒體報導各級審26連敗……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，沒有，沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：就是事實，NCC敗訴嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，NCC po的FB是正確的，剛剛講……"],["魯委員明哲：沒有，我說你有po文，但是我問你這是不是事實，你講這是事實也是對嘛！我只是簡單來講，你們po的那個事實是從你們那一方的view去看的，你們在文中也有寫你們確定敗訴，7件，所以這也是事實，好不好？都是事實，只是用表格呈現的方式不太一樣。我們現在來討論26個裁罰案件，現在你們已經確定輸了7件，我倒過來請教你，在行政裁罰，你知道政府是有權力的人，不管是衛生局或什麼，法律都在你們手上，然後你來說明，所有的決策都在你們手上，訴願還要回到你們手上，你知道嗎？你們是手中握有權力工具的人，然後現在你們按照你們所有的法規，你們所有的team做出來的居然有7件，將近30%敗訴，不知道你滿不滿意這樣的品質，因為當時可能不是你啦，你覺得這樣一個品質，未來NCC會按照這樣的水準繼續努力下去，還是有什麼可以檢討的空間嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們的行政處分是各個機關都一樣，都會力求符合公正，也符合事實，這個是過去委員會依衛廣法相關的一些來處理的，相對人當然有救濟的權利，那法院的判決其實我們都予以尊重。"],["魯委員明哲：簡單來講，之前葉委員講的各審級26連敗，沒錯嘛！因為7、8件案子輸了，你們就一直打、一直打、一直弄嘛！這個部分也沒錯。現在確定以未查證事實……你們相關的處罰總共有7件敗訴，你們也有說明。7件敗訴總共要還他多少錢？請說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：7件敗訴，好像是一百多萬……320萬。"],["魯委員明哲：一百多還是三百多，不知道？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：320。"],["魯委員明哲：320萬。還了沒有、都給了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：還了120萬。"],["魯委員明哲：現在其他的呢？都已經敗訴確定了，還是不還？不想還？"],["林處長慧玲：因為我們有跟中天聯繫，他們是要連那個訴代費用一起申請。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！代理主委，我覺得你們26連敗，請你們不要這麼小看，你們po那個文，我覺得只是凸顯你們的尷尬，你知道嗎？尷尬！第一個，你是有權力去做裁罰的人，我們看包括地方政府、中央政府，很多部分，按照他手上拿的法規、他訂的，你知道嗎？他的法規，他要運用他手上的工具，加上你們每一個部分，一般的人或公司、你們也有自己的法務處、法務機構，你們有外聘律師，坦白講你們是兵強馬壯，你們作出來一個決定，我坦白講，這樣的一個效度明顯是有問題的。我不要講是刻意的、是誤導的，但像這個能夠26連敗，我覺得有兩個問題，第一個，26連敗，為什麼民眾不能問你？每一連敗你還要持續上訴，一個案子有些更審，3次、4次，每一次的律師費多少？請說明。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：中天裁處案平均下來大概12萬。"],["魯委員明哲：12萬、十幾萬。你不用問……假如我是開玩笑說，律師，要不要上訴？要！要就12萬了。這到底在幹什麼？因為你一個案子，同樣理由耶！我覺得真的很low，你知道嗎？你們上訴了，兵強馬壯的部隊，你已經敗訴囉！不行，我們再上訴，理由弄了半天，兵強馬壯，NCC整個去弄，第2次敗訴，不行！看到後我不知道，莫名其妙，我告訴你，人民可不可以問你？當然可以！你有沒有花人民的錢？我告訴你，如果你是私人機構，我不用問，但你們的錢，我的感覺就是：沒關係啊！人民的錢很好用、很香啊！一場12萬我就繼續打，我管它是什麼！我覺得這真的是很離譜，尤其這7件敗訴是非常高的，為什麼？因為中天這樣的案子發生在108、109年，這兩年你們有裁處的案件，在108年裁罰的是87件，109年是94件，兩年總共不是中天的26件，是181件。其他的，我們剛才問，那剩下的一百五十幾件呢？請教：也是敗訴有幾件？撤銷罰款幾件？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，其他大部分是節目跟廣告部分，或賣健康食品的節廣部分的案子，那個是相對地事證明確，應該都相對……"],["魯委員明哲：事證明確，其他都沒有嘛？所以這7……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，其他也是一樣，我們都力求證據明確。"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，對，證據確鑿嘛！所以你這個敗訴就表示證據不確鑿。證據不確鑿，你同樣的案子還要跟人家弄3、4次，我覺得在一個政府機關，這是蠻扯的。","第二個，你們違反新聞事實查證處理流程，我真的希望你們能夠檢討，未來NCC再重新組合，不要這樣讓人家……我不知道是不是內部在惡搞之……還是讓人家有這種感覺。","我們來看一下，這是你們的流程，不是我寫的，你們給我的，電視新聞違反事實查證怎麼處理？五個流程，最後是你們寫的喔！處理流程最快30天，1個月合理嘛！包括什麼？從民眾申訴開始，因為民眾申訴的量很大，搞不好都同一案件，合理嘛！你要濃縮、要精確化。民眾申訴，然後開始通知電視台受理申訴事項，你們就開始討論，經過你們內部的法務處。法務處處長在哪裡？法務處有幾個有法律背景的，有多少人？你在那邊講就好。"],["蔡處長志儒：我們大概都是有法律背景的。"],["魯委員明哲：都是有法律背景，好，請坐。不管是律師或相關具有律師能力的人，你們內部已經在討論了。我在講什麼？你們後面的敗訴連一件都很扯的原因是，拜託！你們兵強馬壯，從剛開始收到訊息就在討論了，合不合法、合不合規、要不要罰或怎麼樣，你們內部就討論，討論出來的項目，剔除掉九成，對不對？有的相同。再來進入第三關，發函給電視台：請問一下，對申訴你的意見是什麼？之後就進到內容諮詢委員會，哇！這個太有趣了，內容諮詢委員會是什麼啊？它的名單51個人，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["魯委員明哲：然後是誰決定的、誰勾選的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：主任委員。"],["魯委員明哲：主委勾選的，好。每一次的案子，組成內容諮詢委員會，要勾選19個人出來，誰勾選的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：也是主任委員。"],["魯委員明哲：我的天哪！然後51個人，19個人，51個人不用公告周知嘛！按照你們的規定，是要卸任之後1個月才告訴，就是秘密？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們新修訂的，如委員所講，我們未來屆期之後會公告。"],["魯委員明哲：他在那邊看兩年，沒有人知道發生什麼事情，然後所有人都是你選的耶！真的，我心裡想，你有沒有看過「少林足球」？球證、旁證、主辦、協辦都是我的人，你跟我玩什麼啊？我跟你講，你後面的敗訴很扯、丟人，用人民的錢你們是玩不完，到最後敗，你們真的是很丟臉，你不要跟企業輸了幾次去比，你們從剛開始就有法務處，到最後諮詢委員會也有一堆律師、法律人，當然還有公民團體、一堆嘛！我沒有意見啊！你選的我也不知道，到現在不知道是誰，沒有人知道是誰！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，裡頭還有業者代表，業界代表、公協會代表等等……"],["魯委員明哲：好了，我想要說的是，包括最後NCC開委員會，你們全程有法律人陪同、全程！法務處外借的律師，你們夠了沒有？你們最後決定發案給別人，這叫做行政人員的不小心嗎？跟行政院有什麼關係，已經經過多位律師判讀的，判讀之後還被打臉、還7件輸！你們還覺得不嚴重，我的天哪！","我想請教一下，這51位、很多法律人，有一些執業律師，請問這51個人選有沒有作為你們最後在行政法院上訴委託……平均12萬的律師，有還是沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該是沒有。沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：都沒有喔！不行嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：都迴避了。"],["魯委員明哲：不行？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：都有迴避條款。"],["魯委員明哲：不行更嚴重，就表示幾十位不同的律師，我們居然還不斷地輸掉。我覺得這個東西你們真的要去好好檢討，在……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，之前委員提的，除了法律代表之外，也有傳播的代表，所以法律代表只是其中之一而已。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，他提供的法律意見讓你足以決定開罰，那他的意見就是可罰嘛！法律都已經確認，就等於多組、多人挺你們去做確認的，而品質這麼差！我覺得未來的委員會是最後一關，假設委員會再組成，你們要好好去了解一下。","最後一個，我想請教一下，現在就電視內容檢舉，這個已經成案待罰了，大概已經經過了內部、剛剛說第四關的諮詢委員會審查了。不管審查結果是Yes或No，待處理的案件，我們看一下目前第1名是三立總共13件；第2名是民視5件；第3名是年代5件；第4名是鏡電視1件。我只想請教一件事，當然最後是民眾的申訴，這沒什麼問題，因為有些比較爭議的新聞有一堆人檢舉，就像那310個人，變成4個案件，因為檢舉都類同，這個我覺得是沒有意見。但我只請教一件事，我們一直在問新任的委員，NCC是獨立、公平的，能夠自己去判斷的一個機關嗎？每一個都說Yes、沒有問題。可是有些東西，我不知道你尷不尷尬？你不覺得尷尬，尷尬的就是別人了。還有112年的案子，112年的委員，你現在告訴我說：抱歉，因為委員缺額，現在只有3位，不能審。對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["魯委員明哲：那112年是幾位？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為案件處理到上委員會議，會有個時間，如果上委員會議的時候超過8月1號的話，那時已經沒有委員會議了。"],["魯委員明哲：Oh, my God！注意一下，你們……還是你們應該改一下，改為處理流程最快3年，這樣我就不用問你了嘛！現在的時間也是你們寫的啊，30天嘛！現在是3年喔！翁柏宗卸任是去年12月1日，經過我們修法，這我承認嘛！後面委員不足，那都不算你的。","113年有11個月至少有4位委員，7月31日前是7位委員滿編，到後面幾個月，翁柏宗還代理，他在嘛，4位委員都可以決策。所以你這種情況我真的是覺得，你剛剛說你們的規定是最快30天，然後後面3年未解決……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那是平均。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那剩下所謂超越平均的都在這裡了！","你覺得這個圖這樣好看嗎？112年還有5件待審，我覺得這個東西啊……因為你是接任的代理主委，沒有說要你……當然你也有參與，但你並不是主導。我覺得這種畫面留下來……","我告訴你，應該一、兩個月或三個月就處理，你們3年還沒有處理，而且當時是委員滿編耶！我真的是期待啦！如果NCC的委員重新再整理，包括你這種不公開的51位選19位，全部你一個人決定的，所以未來主委的良心變成非常非常重要，但是坦白講，我到現在還是不太相信。我期待NCC會越來越獨立、越來越公正。謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。本席在此宣告：今日待本席詢答完畢後休息10分鐘。","接下來請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","李昆澤","黃健豪","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","魯明哲","徐富癸","陳雪生","廖先翔","何欣純","賴士葆","黃國昌","邱若華","游顥","葉元之","林國成","許智傑"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-27"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員陳崇樹列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、處理113\n年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於國家通訊傳播委員會主管有線廣播電視事業發展基金專題\n報告案計1案","agenda_id":"1149001_00001"}}}