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{\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 930.07, \"end\": 930.09, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"淑\", \"start\": 930.09, \"end\": 930.19, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"芳\", \"start\": 930.19, \"end\": 930.21, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,796 --> 00:00:15,898\n好謝謝院長是不是請我們這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢林委員好\n\n2\n00:00:26,096 --> 00:00:53,591\n院長好在2022年的8月我們為了解決淡水的塞車問題中央合訂了淡北道路但是也合訂了18億要蓋一個關渡新橋我今天就是要討論關渡新橋我們就中央支持然後地方政府去做了一個關渡新橋啟動了淡水和兩岸幹線路網平衡的可行性策略評估\n\n3\n00:00:54,091 --> 00:01:16,377\n然後在最近他們出了其中報告這個其中報告裡面報告中列為優先推動的方案是方案二那我今天來跟你講它方案二的內容是這樣子的它在我們市區五股市區103線道上它有一個優化就是電線桿地下化第二個在關路新橋蓋好的附近的周遭它要局部的拓寬\n\n4\n00:01:17,217 --> 00:01:42,505\n那第三個在我們接近蘆洲市區的時候他會有一個高架要直接從103號道路做一個高架短的高架然後跨到我們蘆洲做一個引道這樣子這個方案看起來好像是一個有改善交通的這個路網可是事實上是一個騙局他沒有解決了五股地區的交通問題而把淡水和關渡的車流\n\n5\n00:01:44,566 --> 00:02:06,361\n強行的灌入現在現況早就已經是不堪負荷的蘆州五股地區來這個不是分流這個是一個引流把台北市的交通問題粗暴的轉嫁給我們五股和蘆州所以讓我們來承受那我們為什麼這麼說呢因為新北市政府出來的其中報告裡面他自己這樣說他說\n\n6\n00:02:08,763 --> 00:02:27,454\n這個報告他證實了他自己的方案二是一個無效的方案裡面這麼講其中報告第五章的交通需求預測他說到了目標年就是民國130年也就是我們五股的103號的市道的道路服務水準依然是永設的F等級\n\n7\n00:02:28,294 --> 00:02:43,579\n道路服務水準是F等級所以在這種狀況裡面你現在是F等級未來還是F等級所以這是一個改善交通的方案嗎這簡直是華天下之大機嘛第二個現況我們就是F等級了\n\n8\n00:02:43,959 --> 00:03:10,876\n路口的交通非常的涌射103號現在是F加F再加F所以未來還有新的都市計畫的開發然後要引入數十萬的人口所以你再把103號道路的車流引到蘆洲市區要通過蘆洲的三明路然後再經三河路三重的三河路然後再導到台北市區這個是雪上加霜\n\n9\n00:03:11,576 --> 00:03:38,493\n所以在這種狀況可以解決他們原來要的幫大渡路台北市的大渡路分流嗎沒有辦法因為在他們自己的其中報告第四章講淡北道路通車以後並沒有改變原有的車流結構對道路的大渡路的交通影響甚為所以在這裡我們不是盲目的去反對說這個新北市的報告我們全部都反對\n\n10\n00:03:38,933 --> 00:04:00,184\n而是他還有一個方案三這個方案三就是你要蓋一個關渡新橋那你還要加一個配套就是直接以隧道或高架的方式從關渡新橋從大渡路分流來的車流應該要銜接到台64號的快速道路而不應該銜接到只有一線道\n\n11\n00:04:02,805 --> 00:04:24,656\n單向雙向雙向兩線道單向一線道的103號道路來所以在這種狀況103號道路的服務水準你把它分流到64號去然後我們才能夠把服務水準從F等級提升到D等級你看它如果沒有這個配套你看右手邊的圖\n\n12\n00:04:25,757 --> 00:04:54,007\n所有的道路不管大渡路或是周邊的所有的系統道路他們的道路服務水準都是橘色黃色的C或D為什麼獨獨我們五谷和蘆洲永遠從現況到未來130年永遠都要是紅色的F等級這種以0為貨的這種道路規劃不符合公平正義所以在這裡我們要見請行政院我們雖然F3\n\n13\n00:04:55,007 --> 00:05:22,448\nF3它評估出來了其實是可行的那我們希望停止以零為獲的這個錯誤的規劃要退回新北市以方案二為主的可行性研究報告我們也希望行政院要跟他們再溝通要啟動方案三的綜合規劃落實真正的路網平衡那我們其實要講最終的解決方法不是方案二也不是方案三其實要回歸問題的根源\n\n14\n00:05:24,310 --> 00:05:38,064\n問題的根源就是當初是為了分流大渡路怕淡北道路開通以後大渡路的車流過多那麼大渡路就應該徹底的解決他的問題就是評估大渡路高價化的可行性\n\n15\n00:05:39,365 --> 00:06:01,562\n關渡新橋是我們中央的美意是地方的期盼但是不可以因為短視近利錯誤的規劃而讓我們造成另一個交通的夢魘為謀其利先謀其害所以我們是不是能夠請部長去溝通然後絕對不能接受我們的方案二\n\n16\n00:06:02,222 --> 00:06:31,508\n好這個部分跟委員報告我們會請公路局跟地方政府來溝通這個議題就朝委員剛剛您所建議的這個方向來請他們來做考量是因為終極解決方法大渡路的前半段人家就是州美快速道路就是高架化你把那個高架化延伸到大渡路來把蘇淡北道路來的讓他直接要去台北市的透過大渡路的高架化他可以再引流出去\n\n17\n00:06:32,168 --> 00:06:46,584\n所以沒必要人家現況的大渡路是八線道我們現況103號道路各單向一線道一共兩線道沒有道理讓我們永遠活在F等級裡面好那這樣子我要就叫這個\n\n18\n00:06:48,373 --> 00:07:16,994\n院長另外一個問題中科院中科院54年設立93年改立國防部軍備局你知道他現在改成行政法人是103年改成行政法人所以現在叫做國家中山科學研究院他的設置條例第一條就明定為了提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍民通用的技術特設了國家中山科學院\n\n19\n00:07:17,774 --> 00:07:39,290\n中科院是我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位擔任我國的國防的重要任務過去自主研發國人耳熟能詳的IDF戰機雄風飛彈所以對我們是相當相當重要的一個國防研發和生產單位那請問院長\n\n20\n00:07:41,451 --> 00:08:08,185\n這個中科院在有行政法人設置條例之前是一個有政府是政府的組織的一部分由國家編列預算所以中科院辦理任何的採購案都要適用政府採購法是不是是那他在變成行政法人適用設置條例以後請問他們辦理採購有沒有適用政府採購法\n\n21\n00:08:09,881 --> 00:08:14,394\n是有適用哪裡有適用哪裡適用政府採購法還適用嗎\n\n22\n00:08:17,810 --> 00:08:46,642\n那請委員能夠直接跟保安部說哪一些個方面或哪一個案件沒有啦院長您這副部長喔是不記得啦中科院設置條例行政法人化以後他的設置條例第40條第二項就規定了啦他規定什麼你知道嗎他直接規定說這個除了符合政府採購法第4條所定的狀況以外全部都不適用\n\n23\n00:08:47,282 --> 00:09:00,716\n那政府採購法第四條第一項在講什麼你政府補助金額佔據採購金額一半以上補助金額再公告金額一半以上則才適用採購法\n\n24\n00:09:03,479 --> 00:09:29,495\n所以簡單的來說中科院辦理採購只要這個採購案不是政府補助金額超過採購金額一半以上都不是用政府採購法副部長這樣你聽到嗎好那院長我要跟你講這件事情知識體大為什麼因為不是用政府採購法會發生什麼狀況你知道嗎\n\n25\n00:09:30,336 --> 00:09:58,807\n依據最高法院向來的一貫的見解只有依政府採購法辦理的採購案經手採購的人員才會叫做授權公務員授權公務員才有貪污治罪條例的適用而我們看到媒體的報導這些年來中科院在一些採購案上發生很多的弊案\n\n26\n00:09:59,767 --> 00:10:11,225\n因為不是用採購法造成這些弊案本來是用貪污治罪條例要來管理和制裁的現在通通是用刑法什麼罪你知道嗎刑法什麼罪你知道嗎\n\n27\n00:10:16,420 --> 00:10:45,134\n副部長你不知道對嗎你管的2266老實說院長管的2266刑法的背信罪背信罪背信罪是幾年以下的有期徒刑你知道嗎報告院長報告副部長跟竊盜罪一樣你洩露機密然後大家都知道洩密是因為金錢誘惑嘛那你拿了\n\n28\n00:10:46,670 --> 00:11:09,226\n人家的錢洩密了洩密了以後跟偷一個東西的竊盜罪一樣背信罪的這個刑責是一樣的五年以下請問院長長期以往你覺得這樣子有辦法保護我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位嗎\n\n29\n00:11:11,447 --> 00:11:23,317\n這個轉換成行政法人希望他是更有效率更能夠因應一些突來起來的需要同時他也必須要更積極去面對這些採購上的研發等等問題但是\n\n30\n00:11:25,410 --> 00:11:46,870\n程序上還是要有內機內控我想這個部分絕對不是你講得太好了院長我現在就是要告訴你中科院內無安全國安理的落實外部沒有應對的法律管制我現在就告訴你說我們立法院的預算中心的評估報告就在這裡中科院承接眾多中科院\n\n31\n00:11:47,651 --> 00:12:02,861\n其實行政法人都只有兩個彈性一個就是要人我不用再用公務人員資格第二個要錢我不要受政府採購法管制讓他有彈性有靈活可是不要忘了你以為的事實上他都沒有變\n\n32\n00:12:04,022 --> 00:12:26,848\n他曾接眾多國防的科研和產製業業務多設相當機敏性然該院的績效評鑑衡量指標的機密維護已經連續五年沒有達到年度目標值所有中科院的錢97%98%都來自哪裡副部長你是做副部長你不知道喔\n\n33\n00:12:33,123 --> 00:12:34,525\n營運的收入來源主要都靠勞務收入98%\n\n34\n00:12:50,862 --> 00:12:59,305\n然後這98%裡面都來自於國防的科研計畫軍種委託計畫我們請他幫我們生產飛彈請他們幫我們生產武器請他們幫我們製造什麼\n\n35\n00:13:06,608 --> 00:13:32,058\n只有專保都政府委託的但是委託不是補助所以在這種狀況98%是來自於政府給的勞務收入但是裡面都是科研計畫軍種委託計畫科專計畫其他政府機關委託計畫等等在這種狀況裡面我們發現每年承接這麼多涉及到國家軍事機密國防秘密的計畫這麼多\n\n36\n00:13:35,134 --> 00:13:45,192\n但是就機密維護出國業務付入管控文書檔案管理和集合指標連續五年通通不及格你知道有多荒謬嗎一定我要告訴你聽\n\n37\n00:13:46,943 --> 00:14:04,614\n某中心各專案新版藍圖分化後舊版的藍圖就由受領單位自行銷毀沒有銷毀記錄可及專案網路共用詞區沒有分幾色權限管制瀏覽權限通通都沒有機敏的專案場域內作廢的機密資訊沒有詳實登載於銷毀登記簿\n\n38\n00:14:11,098 --> 00:14:30,572\n某單位門禁系統執行不合格辨識警報鈴響沒作動且後台系統未顯示異常等等等等所以我是要告訴你裡面機密沒有在管理洩密只是跟竊盜罪一樣五年以下的背信罪\n\n39\n00:14:33,239 --> 00:14:48,111\n這個不是非同小可的事情制度面一定要開始思考在目前這個階段我們正在全力的提高國家的國安等級也在增強更多的國安設備所以中科院\n\n40\n00:14:49,059 --> 00:14:57,227\n牽扯到國家重大的這些軍事武器的研發製造等等我們更應該用高標準因為一陣子2023年電纜軍規變陸貨他從軍規偷改成商規文件洩漏給廠商三個員工勾結廠商\n\n41\n00:15:07,321 --> 00:15:30,210\n前一陣子有一個新聞也是啊股票上市公司也是啊不曉得是什麼狀況但是我一直說層出不窮除了在安全等級要中科院包括國防部全面來檢討提振之外關於預算的編列執行也要有合於現在高標準的管控我們現在講的是貪瀆貪瀆而不是背信這個制度面要改好謝謝林淑芳\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10796\t15898\t好 謝謝院長是不是請我們這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢林委員好\n26096\t53591\t院長好 在2022年的8月我們為了解決淡水的塞車問題中央合訂了淡北道路但是也合訂了18億要蓋一個關渡新橋我今天就是要討論關渡新橋我們就中央支持然後地方政府去做了一個關渡新橋啟動了淡水和兩岸幹線路網平衡的可行性策略評估\n54091\t76377\t然後在最近他們出了其中報告這個其中報告裡面報告中列為優先推動的方案是方案二那我今天來跟你講它方案二的內容是這樣子的它在我們市區五股市區103線道上它有一個優化就是電線桿地下化第二個在關路新橋蓋好的附近的周遭它要局部的拓寬\n77217\t102505\t那第三個在我們接近蘆洲市區的時候他會有一個高架要直接從103號道路做一個高架短的高架然後跨到我們蘆洲做一個引道這樣子這個方案看起來好像是一個有改善交通的這個路網可是事實上是一個騙局他沒有解決了五股地區的交通問題而把淡水和關渡的車流\n104566\t126361\t強行的灌入現在現況早就已經是不堪負荷的蘆州 五股地區來這個不是分流 這個是一個引流把台北市的交通問題粗暴的轉嫁給我們五股和蘆州所以讓我們來承受那我們為什麼這麼說呢因為新北市政府出來的其中報告裡面他自己這樣說 他說\n128763\t147454\t這個報告他證實了他自己的方案二是一個無效的方案裡面這麼講其中報告第五章的交通需求預測他說到了目標年就是民國130年也就是我們五股的103號的市道的道路服務水準依然是永設的F等級\n148294\t163579\t道路服務水準是F等級所以在這種狀況裡面你現在是F等級未來還是F等級所以這是一個改善交通的方案嗎這簡直是華天下之大機嘛第二個現況我們就是F等級了\n163959\t190876\t路口的交通非常的涌射103號現在是F加F再加F所以未來還有新的都市計畫的開發然後要引入數十萬的人口所以你再把103號道路的車流引到蘆洲市區要通過蘆洲的三明路然後再經三河路三重的三河路然後再導到台北市區這個是雪上加霜\n191576\t218493\t所以在這種狀況可以解決他們原來要的幫大渡路台北市的大渡路分流嗎沒有辦法因為在他們自己的其中報告第四章講淡北道路通車以後並沒有改變原有的車流結構對道路的大渡路的交通影響甚為所以在這裡我們不是盲目的去反對說這個新北市的報告我們全部都反對\n218933\t240184\t而是他還有一個方案三這個方案三就是你要蓋一個關渡新橋那你還要加一個配套就是直接以隧道或高架的方式從關渡新橋從大渡路分流來的車流應該要銜接到台64號的快速道路而不應該銜接到只有一線道\n242805\t264656\t單向 雙向 雙向兩線道單向一線道的103號道路來所以在這種狀況103號道路的服務水準你把它分流到64號去然後我們才能夠把服務水準從F等級提升到D等級你看它如果沒有這個配套你看右手邊的圖\n265757\t294007\t所有的道路不管大渡路或是周邊的所有的系統道路他們的道路服務水準都是橘色黃色的C或D為什麼獨獨我們五谷和蘆洲永遠從現況到未來130年永遠都要是紅色的F等級這種以0為貨的這種道路規劃不符合公平正義所以在這裡我們要見請行政院我們雖然F3\n295007\t322448\tF3它評估出來了其實是可行的那我們希望停止以零為獲的這個錯誤的規劃要退回新北市以方案二為主的可行性研究報告我們也希望行政院要跟他們再溝通要啟動方案三的綜合規劃落實真正的路網平衡那我們其實要講最終的解決方法不是方案二也不是方案三其實要回歸問題的根源\n324310\t338064\t問題的根源就是當初是為了分流大渡路怕淡北道路開通以後大渡路的車流過多那麼大渡路就應該徹底的解決他的問題就是評估大渡路高價化的可行性\n339365\t361562\t關渡新橋是我們中央的美意是地方的期盼但是不可以因為短視近利錯誤的規劃而讓我們造成另一個交通的夢魘為謀其利先謀其害所以我們是不是能夠請部長去溝通然後絕對不能接受我們的方案二\n362222\t391508\t好 這個部分跟委員報告我們會請公路局跟地方政府來溝通這個議題就朝委員剛剛您所建議的這個方向來請他們來做考量是 因為終極解決方法大渡路的前半段人家就是州美快速道路就是高架化你把那個高架化延伸到大渡路來把蘇淡北道路來的讓他直接要去台北市的透過大渡路的高架化他可以再引流出去\n392168\t406584\t所以沒必要人家現況的大渡路是八線道我們現況103號道路各單向一線道一共兩線道沒有道理讓我們永遠活在F等級裡面好那這樣子我要就叫這個\n408373\t436994\t院長另外一個問題中科院中科院54年設立93年改立國防部軍備局你知道他現在改成行政法人是103年改成行政法人所以現在叫做國家中山科學研究院他的設置條例第一條就明定為了提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍民通用的技術特設了國家中山科學院\n437774\t459290\t中科院是我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位擔任我國的國防的重要任務過去自主研發國人耳熟能詳的IDF戰機雄風飛彈所以對我們是相當相當重要的一個國防研發和生產單位那請問院長\n461451\t488185\t這個中科院在有行政法人設置條例之前是一個有政府是政府的組織的一部分由國家編列預算所以中科院辦理任何的採購案都要適用政府採購法是不是是那他在變成行政法人適用設置條例以後請問他們辦理採購有沒有適用政府採購法\n489881\t494394\t是有適用哪裡有適用哪裡適用政府採購法還適用嗎\n497810\t526642\t那請委員能夠直接跟保安部說哪一些個方面或哪一個案件沒有啦 院長您這副部長喔 是不記得啦中科院設置條例行政法人化以後他的設置條例第40條第二項就規定了啦他規定什麼你知道嗎他直接規定說這個除了符合政府採購法第4條所定的狀況以外全部都不適用\n527282\t540716\t那政府採購法第四條第一項在講什麼你政府補助金額佔據採購金額一半以上補助金額再公告金額一半以上則才適用採購法\n543479\t569495\t所以簡單的來說中科院辦理採購只要這個採購案不是政府補助金額超過採購金額一半以上都不是用政府採購法 副部長這樣你聽到嗎好那院長我要跟你講這件事情知識體大為什麼因為不是用政府採購法會發生什麼狀況你知道嗎\n570336\t598807\t依據最高法院向來的一貫的見解只有依政府採購法辦理的採購案經手採購的人員才會叫做授權公務員授權公務員才有貪污治罪條例的適用而我們看到媒體的報導這些年來中科院在一些採購案上發生很多的弊案\n599767\t611225\t因為不是用採購法造成這些弊案本來是用貪污治罪條例要來管理和制裁的現在通通是用刑法什麼罪你知道嗎刑法什麼罪你知道嗎\n616420\t645134\t副部長你不知道對嗎你管的2266老實說院長管的2266刑法的背信罪背信罪背信罪是幾年以下的有期徒刑你知道嗎報告院長報告副部長跟竊盜罪一樣你洩露機密然後大家都知道洩密是因為金錢誘惑嘛那你拿了\n646670\t669226\t人家的錢洩密了洩密了以後跟偷一個東西的竊盜罪一樣背信罪的這個刑責是一樣的五年以下請問院長長期以往你覺得這樣子有辦法保護我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位嗎\n671447\t683317\t這個轉換成行政法人希望他是更有效率更能夠因應一些突來起來的需要同時他也必須要更積極去面對這些採購上的研發等等問題但是\n685410\t706870\t程序上還是要有內機內控我想這個部分絕對不是你講得太好了 院長我現在就是要告訴你中科院內無安全國安理的落實外部沒有應對的法律管制我現在就告訴你說我們立法院的預算中心的評估報告就在這裡中科院承接眾多 中科院\n707651\t722861\t其實行政法人都只有兩個彈性一個就是要人我不用再用公務人員資格第二個要錢我不要受政府採購法管制讓他有彈性有靈活可是不要忘了你以為的事實上他都沒有變\n724022\t746848\t他曾接眾多國防的科研和產製業業務多設相當機敏性然該院的績效評鑑衡量指標的機密維護已經連續五年沒有達到年度目標值所有中科院的錢97% 98% 都來自哪裡副部長你是做副部長 你不知道喔\n753123\t754525\t營運的收入來源主要都靠勞務收入98%\n770862\t779305\t然後這98%裡面都來自於國防的科研計畫軍種委託計畫我們請他幫我們生產飛彈請他們幫我們生產武器請他們幫我們製造什麼\n786608\t812058\t只有專保都政府委託的但是委託不是補助所以在這種狀況98%是來自於政府給的勞務收入但是裡面都是科研計畫軍種委託計畫 科專計畫其他政府機關委託計畫等等在這種狀況裡面我們發現每年承接這麼多涉及到國家軍事機密 國防秘密的計畫這麼多\n815134\t825192\t但是就機密維護出國業務 付入管控文書檔案管理和集合指標連續五年通通不及格你知道有多荒謬嗎 一定我要告訴你聽\n826943\t844614\t某中心各專案新版藍圖分化後舊版的藍圖就由受領單位自行銷毀沒有銷毀記錄可及專案網路共用詞區沒有分幾色權限管制瀏覽權限通通都沒有機敏的專案場域內作廢的機密資訊沒有詳實登載於銷毀登記簿\n851098\t870572\t某單位門禁系統執行不合格辨識警報鈴響沒作動且後台系統未顯示異常等等等等所以我是要告訴你裡面機密沒有在管理洩密只是跟竊盜罪一樣五年以下的背信罪\n873239\t888111\t這個不是非同小可的事情制度面一定要開始思考在目前這個階段我們正在全力的提高國家的國安等級也在增強更多的國安設備所以中科院\n889059\t897227\t牽扯到國家重大的這些軍事武器的研發製造等等我們更應該用高標準因為一陣子2023年電纜軍規變陸貨他從軍規偷改成商規文件洩漏給廠商三個員工勾結廠商\n907321\t930210\t前一陣子有一個新聞也是啊股票上市公司也是啊不曉得是什麼狀況但是我一直說層出不窮除了在安全等級要中科院包括國防部全面來檢討提振之外關於預算的編列執行也要有合於現在高標準的管控我們現在講的是貪瀆貪瀆而不是背信這個制度面要改好 謝謝林淑芳\n","txt":"好 謝謝院長是不是請我們這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢林委員好\n院長好 在2022年的8月我們為了解決淡水的塞車問題中央合訂了淡北道路但是也合訂了18億要蓋一個關渡新橋我今天就是要討論關渡新橋我們就中央支持然後地方政府去做了一個關渡新橋啟動了淡水和兩岸幹線路網平衡的可行性策略評估\n然後在最近他們出了其中報告這個其中報告裡面報告中列為優先推動的方案是方案二那我今天來跟你講它方案二的內容是這樣子的它在我們市區五股市區103線道上它有一個優化就是電線桿地下化第二個在關路新橋蓋好的附近的周遭它要局部的拓寬\n那第三個在我們接近蘆洲市區的時候他會有一個高架要直接從103號道路做一個高架短的高架然後跨到我們蘆洲做一個引道這樣子這個方案看起來好像是一個有改善交通的這個路網可是事實上是一個騙局他沒有解決了五股地區的交通問題而把淡水和關渡的車流\n強行的灌入現在現況早就已經是不堪負荷的蘆州 五股地區來這個不是分流 這個是一個引流把台北市的交通問題粗暴的轉嫁給我們五股和蘆州所以讓我們來承受那我們為什麼這麼說呢因為新北市政府出來的其中報告裡面他自己這樣說 他說\n這個報告他證實了他自己的方案二是一個無效的方案裡面這麼講其中報告第五章的交通需求預測他說到了目標年就是民國130年也就是我們五股的103號的市道的道路服務水準依然是永設的F等級\n道路服務水準是F等級所以在這種狀況裡面你現在是F等級未來還是F等級所以這是一個改善交通的方案嗎這簡直是華天下之大機嘛第二個現況我們就是F等級了\n路口的交通非常的涌射103號現在是F加F再加F所以未來還有新的都市計畫的開發然後要引入數十萬的人口所以你再把103號道路的車流引到蘆洲市區要通過蘆洲的三明路然後再經三河路三重的三河路然後再導到台北市區這個是雪上加霜\n所以在這種狀況可以解決他們原來要的幫大渡路台北市的大渡路分流嗎沒有辦法因為在他們自己的其中報告第四章講淡北道路通車以後並沒有改變原有的車流結構對道路的大渡路的交通影響甚為所以在這裡我們不是盲目的去反對說這個新北市的報告我們全部都反對\n而是他還有一個方案三這個方案三就是你要蓋一個關渡新橋那你還要加一個配套就是直接以隧道或高架的方式從關渡新橋從大渡路分流來的車流應該要銜接到台64號的快速道路而不應該銜接到只有一線道\n單向 雙向 雙向兩線道單向一線道的103號道路來所以在這種狀況103號道路的服務水準你把它分流到64號去然後我們才能夠把服務水準從F等級提升到D等級你看它如果沒有這個配套你看右手邊的圖\n所有的道路不管大渡路或是周邊的所有的系統道路他們的道路服務水準都是橘色黃色的C或D為什麼獨獨我們五谷和蘆洲永遠從現況到未來130年永遠都要是紅色的F等級這種以0為貨的這種道路規劃不符合公平正義所以在這裡我們要見請行政院我們雖然F3\nF3它評估出來了其實是可行的那我們希望停止以零為獲的這個錯誤的規劃要退回新北市以方案二為主的可行性研究報告我們也希望行政院要跟他們再溝通要啟動方案三的綜合規劃落實真正的路網平衡那我們其實要講最終的解決方法不是方案二也不是方案三其實要回歸問題的根源\n問題的根源就是當初是為了分流大渡路怕淡北道路開通以後大渡路的車流過多那麼大渡路就應該徹底的解決他的問題就是評估大渡路高價化的可行性\n關渡新橋是我們中央的美意是地方的期盼但是不可以因為短視近利錯誤的規劃而讓我們造成另一個交通的夢魘為謀其利先謀其害所以我們是不是能夠請部長去溝通然後絕對不能接受我們的方案二\n好 這個部分跟委員報告我們會請公路局跟地方政府來溝通這個議題就朝委員剛剛您所建議的這個方向來請他們來做考量是 因為終極解決方法大渡路的前半段人家就是州美快速道路就是高架化你把那個高架化延伸到大渡路來把蘇淡北道路來的讓他直接要去台北市的透過大渡路的高架化他可以再引流出去\n所以沒必要人家現況的大渡路是八線道我們現況103號道路各單向一線道一共兩線道沒有道理讓我們永遠活在F等級裡面好那這樣子我要就叫這個\n院長另外一個問題中科院中科院54年設立93年改立國防部軍備局你知道他現在改成行政法人是103年改成行政法人所以現在叫做國家中山科學研究院他的設置條例第一條就明定為了提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍民通用的技術特設了國家中山科學院\n中科院是我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位擔任我國的國防的重要任務過去自主研發國人耳熟能詳的IDF戰機雄風飛彈所以對我們是相當相當重要的一個國防研發和生產單位那請問院長\n這個中科院在有行政法人設置條例之前是一個有政府是政府的組織的一部分由國家編列預算所以中科院辦理任何的採購案都要適用政府採購法是不是是那他在變成行政法人適用設置條例以後請問他們辦理採購有沒有適用政府採購法\n是有適用哪裡有適用哪裡適用政府採購法還適用嗎\n那請委員能夠直接跟保安部說哪一些個方面或哪一個案件沒有啦 院長您這副部長喔 是不記得啦中科院設置條例行政法人化以後他的設置條例第40條第二項就規定了啦他規定什麼你知道嗎他直接規定說這個除了符合政府採購法第4條所定的狀況以外全部都不適用\n那政府採購法第四條第一項在講什麼你政府補助金額佔據採購金額一半以上補助金額再公告金額一半以上則才適用採購法\n所以簡單的來說中科院辦理採購只要這個採購案不是政府補助金額超過採購金額一半以上都不是用政府採購法 副部長這樣你聽到嗎好那院長我要跟你講這件事情知識體大為什麼因為不是用政府採購法會發生什麼狀況你知道嗎\n依據最高法院向來的一貫的見解只有依政府採購法辦理的採購案經手採購的人員才會叫做授權公務員授權公務員才有貪污治罪條例的適用而我們看到媒體的報導這些年來中科院在一些採購案上發生很多的弊案\n因為不是用採購法造成這些弊案本來是用貪污治罪條例要來管理和制裁的現在通通是用刑法什麼罪你知道嗎刑法什麼罪你知道嗎\n副部長你不知道對嗎你管的2266老實說院長管的2266刑法的背信罪背信罪背信罪是幾年以下的有期徒刑你知道嗎報告院長報告副部長跟竊盜罪一樣你洩露機密然後大家都知道洩密是因為金錢誘惑嘛那你拿了\n人家的錢洩密了洩密了以後跟偷一個東西的竊盜罪一樣背信罪的這個刑責是一樣的五年以下請問院長長期以往你覺得這樣子有辦法保護我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位嗎\n這個轉換成行政法人希望他是更有效率更能夠因應一些突來起來的需要同時他也必須要更積極去面對這些採購上的研發等等問題但是\n程序上還是要有內機內控我想這個部分絕對不是你講得太好了 院長我現在就是要告訴你中科院內無安全國安理的落實外部沒有應對的法律管制我現在就告訴你說我們立法院的預算中心的評估報告就在這裡中科院承接眾多 中科院\n其實行政法人都只有兩個彈性一個就是要人我不用再用公務人員資格第二個要錢我不要受政府採購法管制讓他有彈性有靈活可是不要忘了你以為的事實上他都沒有變\n他曾接眾多國防的科研和產製業業務多設相當機敏性然該院的績效評鑑衡量指標的機密維護已經連續五年沒有達到年度目標值所有中科院的錢97% 98% 都來自哪裡副部長你是做副部長 你不知道喔\n營運的收入來源主要都靠勞務收入98%\n然後這98%裡面都來自於國防的科研計畫軍種委託計畫我們請他幫我們生產飛彈請他們幫我們生產武器請他們幫我們製造什麼\n只有專保都政府委託的但是委託不是補助所以在這種狀況98%是來自於政府給的勞務收入但是裡面都是科研計畫軍種委託計畫 科專計畫其他政府機關委託計畫等等在這種狀況裡面我們發現每年承接這麼多涉及到國家軍事機密 國防秘密的計畫這麼多\n但是就機密維護出國業務 付入管控文書檔案管理和集合指標連續五年通通不及格你知道有多荒謬嗎 一定我要告訴你聽\n某中心各專案新版藍圖分化後舊版的藍圖就由受領單位自行銷毀沒有銷毀記錄可及專案網路共用詞區沒有分幾色權限管制瀏覽權限通通都沒有機敏的專案場域內作廢的機密資訊沒有詳實登載於銷毀登記簿\n某單位門禁系統執行不合格辨識警報鈴響沒作動且後台系統未顯示異常等等等等所以我是要告訴你裡面機密沒有在管理洩密只是跟竊盜罪一樣五年以下的背信罪\n這個不是非同小可的事情制度面一定要開始思考在目前這個階段我們正在全力的提高國家的國安等級也在增強更多的國安設備所以中科院\n牽扯到國家重大的這些軍事武器的研發製造等等我們更應該用高標準因為一陣子2023年電纜軍規變陸貨他從軍規偷改成商規文件洩漏給廠商三個員工勾結廠商\n前一陣子有一個新聞也是啊股票上市公司也是啊不曉得是什麼狀況但是我一直說層出不窮除了在安全等級要中科院包括國防部全面來檢討提振之外關於預算的編列執行也要有合於現在高標準的管控我們現在講的是貪瀆貪瀆而不是背信這個制度面要改好 謝謝林淑芳\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.796 --> 00:15.898\n好謝謝院長是不是請我們這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢林委員好\n\n00:26.096 --> 00:53.591\n院長好在2022年的8月我們為了解決淡水的塞車問題中央合訂了淡北道路但是也合訂了18億要蓋一個關渡新橋我今天就是要討論關渡新橋我們就中央支持然後地方政府去做了一個關渡新橋啟動了淡水和兩岸幹線路網平衡的可行性策略評估\n\n00:54.091 --> 01:16.377\n然後在最近他們出了其中報告這個其中報告裡面報告中列為優先推動的方案是方案二那我今天來跟你講它方案二的內容是這樣子的它在我們市區五股市區103線道上它有一個優化就是電線桿地下化第二個在關路新橋蓋好的附近的周遭它要局部的拓寬\n\n01:17.217 --> 01:42.505\n那第三個在我們接近蘆洲市區的時候他會有一個高架要直接從103號道路做一個高架短的高架然後跨到我們蘆洲做一個引道這樣子這個方案看起來好像是一個有改善交通的這個路網可是事實上是一個騙局他沒有解決了五股地區的交通問題而把淡水和關渡的車流\n\n01:44.566 --> 02:06.361\n強行的灌入現在現況早就已經是不堪負荷的蘆州五股地區來這個不是分流這個是一個引流把台北市的交通問題粗暴的轉嫁給我們五股和蘆州所以讓我們來承受那我們為什麼這麼說呢因為新北市政府出來的其中報告裡面他自己這樣說他說\n\n02:08.763 --> 02:27.454\n這個報告他證實了他自己的方案二是一個無效的方案裡面這麼講其中報告第五章的交通需求預測他說到了目標年就是民國130年也就是我們五股的103號的市道的道路服務水準依然是永設的F等級\n\n02:28.294 --> 02:43.579\n道路服務水準是F等級所以在這種狀況裡面你現在是F等級未來還是F等級所以這是一個改善交通的方案嗎這簡直是華天下之大機嘛第二個現況我們就是F等級了\n\n02:43.959 --> 03:10.876\n路口的交通非常的涌射103號現在是F加F再加F所以未來還有新的都市計畫的開發然後要引入數十萬的人口所以你再把103號道路的車流引到蘆洲市區要通過蘆洲的三明路然後再經三河路三重的三河路然後再導到台北市區這個是雪上加霜\n\n03:11.576 --> 03:38.493\n所以在這種狀況可以解決他們原來要的幫大渡路台北市的大渡路分流嗎沒有辦法因為在他們自己的其中報告第四章講淡北道路通車以後並沒有改變原有的車流結構對道路的大渡路的交通影響甚為所以在這裡我們不是盲目的去反對說這個新北市的報告我們全部都反對\n\n03:38.933 --> 04:00.184\n而是他還有一個方案三這個方案三就是你要蓋一個關渡新橋那你還要加一個配套就是直接以隧道或高架的方式從關渡新橋從大渡路分流來的車流應該要銜接到台64號的快速道路而不應該銜接到只有一線道\n\n04:02.805 --> 04:24.656\n單向雙向雙向兩線道單向一線道的103號道路來所以在這種狀況103號道路的服務水準你把它分流到64號去然後我們才能夠把服務水準從F等級提升到D等級你看它如果沒有這個配套你看右手邊的圖\n\n04:25.757 --> 04:54.007\n所有的道路不管大渡路或是周邊的所有的系統道路他們的道路服務水準都是橘色黃色的C或D為什麼獨獨我們五谷和蘆洲永遠從現況到未來130年永遠都要是紅色的F等級這種以0為貨的這種道路規劃不符合公平正義所以在這裡我們要見請行政院我們雖然F3\n\n04:55.007 --> 05:22.448\nF3它評估出來了其實是可行的那我們希望停止以零為獲的這個錯誤的規劃要退回新北市以方案二為主的可行性研究報告我們也希望行政院要跟他們再溝通要啟動方案三的綜合規劃落實真正的路網平衡那我們其實要講最終的解決方法不是方案二也不是方案三其實要回歸問題的根源\n\n05:24.310 --> 05:38.064\n問題的根源就是當初是為了分流大渡路怕淡北道路開通以後大渡路的車流過多那麼大渡路就應該徹底的解決他的問題就是評估大渡路高價化的可行性\n\n05:39.365 --> 06:01.562\n關渡新橋是我們中央的美意是地方的期盼但是不可以因為短視近利錯誤的規劃而讓我們造成另一個交通的夢魘為謀其利先謀其害所以我們是不是能夠請部長去溝通然後絕對不能接受我們的方案二\n\n06:02.222 --> 06:31.508\n好這個部分跟委員報告我們會請公路局跟地方政府來溝通這個議題就朝委員剛剛您所建議的這個方向來請他們來做考量是因為終極解決方法大渡路的前半段人家就是州美快速道路就是高架化你把那個高架化延伸到大渡路來把蘇淡北道路來的讓他直接要去台北市的透過大渡路的高架化他可以再引流出去\n\n06:32.168 --> 06:46.584\n所以沒必要人家現況的大渡路是八線道我們現況103號道路各單向一線道一共兩線道沒有道理讓我們永遠活在F等級裡面好那這樣子我要就叫這個\n\n06:48.373 --> 07:16.994\n院長另外一個問題中科院中科院54年設立93年改立國防部軍備局你知道他現在改成行政法人是103年改成行政法人所以現在叫做國家中山科學研究院他的設置條例第一條就明定為了提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍民通用的技術特設了國家中山科學院\n\n07:17.774 --> 07:39.290\n中科院是我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位擔任我國的國防的重要任務過去自主研發國人耳熟能詳的IDF戰機雄風飛彈所以對我們是相當相當重要的一個國防研發和生產單位那請問院長\n\n07:41.451 --> 08:08.185\n這個中科院在有行政法人設置條例之前是一個有政府是政府的組織的一部分由國家編列預算所以中科院辦理任何的採購案都要適用政府採購法是不是是那他在變成行政法人適用設置條例以後請問他們辦理採購有沒有適用政府採購法\n\n08:09.881 --> 08:14.394\n是有適用哪裡有適用哪裡適用政府採購法還適用嗎\n\n08:17.810 --> 08:46.642\n那請委員能夠直接跟保安部說哪一些個方面或哪一個案件沒有啦院長您這副部長喔是不記得啦中科院設置條例行政法人化以後他的設置條例第40條第二項就規定了啦他規定什麼你知道嗎他直接規定說這個除了符合政府採購法第4條所定的狀況以外全部都不適用\n\n08:47.282 --> 09:00.716\n那政府採購法第四條第一項在講什麼你政府補助金額佔據採購金額一半以上補助金額再公告金額一半以上則才適用採購法\n\n09:03.479 --> 09:29.495\n所以簡單的來說中科院辦理採購只要這個採購案不是政府補助金額超過採購金額一半以上都不是用政府採購法副部長這樣你聽到嗎好那院長我要跟你講這件事情知識體大為什麼因為不是用政府採購法會發生什麼狀況你知道嗎\n\n09:30.336 --> 09:58.807\n依據最高法院向來的一貫的見解只有依政府採購法辦理的採購案經手採購的人員才會叫做授權公務員授權公務員才有貪污治罪條例的適用而我們看到媒體的報導這些年來中科院在一些採購案上發生很多的弊案\n\n09:59.767 --> 10:11.225\n因為不是用採購法造成這些弊案本來是用貪污治罪條例要來管理和制裁的現在通通是用刑法什麼罪你知道嗎刑法什麼罪你知道嗎\n\n10:16.420 --> 10:45.134\n副部長你不知道對嗎你管的2266老實說院長管的2266刑法的背信罪背信罪背信罪是幾年以下的有期徒刑你知道嗎報告院長報告副部長跟竊盜罪一樣你洩露機密然後大家都知道洩密是因為金錢誘惑嘛那你拿了\n\n10:46.670 --> 11:09.226\n人家的錢洩密了洩密了以後跟偷一個東西的竊盜罪一樣背信罪的這個刑責是一樣的五年以下請問院長長期以往你覺得這樣子有辦法保護我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位嗎\n\n11:11.447 --> 11:23.317\n這個轉換成行政法人希望他是更有效率更能夠因應一些突來起來的需要同時他也必須要更積極去面對這些採購上的研發等等問題但是\n\n11:25.410 --> 11:46.870\n程序上還是要有內機內控我想這個部分絕對不是你講得太好了院長我現在就是要告訴你中科院內無安全國安理的落實外部沒有應對的法律管制我現在就告訴你說我們立法院的預算中心的評估報告就在這裡中科院承接眾多中科院\n\n11:47.651 --> 12:02.861\n其實行政法人都只有兩個彈性一個就是要人我不用再用公務人員資格第二個要錢我不要受政府採購法管制讓他有彈性有靈活可是不要忘了你以為的事實上他都沒有變\n\n12:04.022 --> 12:26.848\n他曾接眾多國防的科研和產製業業務多設相當機敏性然該院的績效評鑑衡量指標的機密維護已經連續五年沒有達到年度目標值所有中科院的錢97%98%都來自哪裡副部長你是做副部長你不知道喔\n\n12:33.123 --> 12:34.525\n營運的收入來源主要都靠勞務收入98%\n\n12:50.862 --> 12:59.305\n然後這98%裡面都來自於國防的科研計畫軍種委託計畫我們請他幫我們生產飛彈請他們幫我們生產武器請他們幫我們製造什麼\n\n13:06.608 --> 13:32.058\n只有專保都政府委託的但是委託不是補助所以在這種狀況98%是來自於政府給的勞務收入但是裡面都是科研計畫軍種委託計畫科專計畫其他政府機關委託計畫等等在這種狀況裡面我們發現每年承接這麼多涉及到國家軍事機密國防秘密的計畫這麼多\n\n13:35.134 --> 13:45.192\n但是就機密維護出國業務付入管控文書檔案管理和集合指標連續五年通通不及格你知道有多荒謬嗎一定我要告訴你聽\n\n13:46.943 --> 14:04.614\n某中心各專案新版藍圖分化後舊版的藍圖就由受領單位自行銷毀沒有銷毀記錄可及專案網路共用詞區沒有分幾色權限管制瀏覽權限通通都沒有機敏的專案場域內作廢的機密資訊沒有詳實登載於銷毀登記簿\n\n14:11.098 --> 14:30.572\n某單位門禁系統執行不合格辨識警報鈴響沒作動且後台系統未顯示異常等等等等所以我是要告訴你裡面機密沒有在管理洩密只是跟竊盜罪一樣五年以下的背信罪\n\n14:33.239 --> 14:48.111\n這個不是非同小可的事情制度面一定要開始思考在目前這個階段我們正在全力的提高國家的國安等級也在增強更多的國安設備所以中科院\n\n14:49.059 --> 14:57.227\n牽扯到國家重大的這些軍事武器的研發製造等等我們更應該用高標準因為一陣子2023年電纜軍規變陸貨他從軍規偷改成商規文件洩漏給廠商三個員工勾結廠商\n\n15:07.321 --> 15:30.210\n前一陣子有一個新聞也是啊股票上市公司也是啊不曉得是什麼狀況但是我一直說層出不窮除了在安全等級要中科院包括國防部全面來檢討提振之外關於預算的編列執行也要有合於現在高標準的管控我們現在講的是貪瀆貪瀆而不是背信這個制度面要改好謝謝林淑芳\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.796,"end":15.898,"text":"好 謝謝院長是不是請我們這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢林委員好"},{"start":26.096,"end":53.591,"text":"院長好 在2022年的8月我們為了解決淡水的塞車問題中央合訂了淡北道路但是也合訂了18億要蓋一個關渡新橋我今天就是要討論關渡新橋我們就中央支持然後地方政府去做了一個關渡新橋啟動了淡水和兩岸幹線路網平衡的可行性策略評估"},{"start":54.091,"end":76.377,"text":"然後在最近他們出了其中報告這個其中報告裡面報告中列為優先推動的方案是方案二那我今天來跟你講它方案二的內容是這樣子的它在我們市區五股市區103線道上它有一個優化就是電線桿地下化第二個在關路新橋蓋好的附近的周遭它要局部的拓寬"},{"start":77.217,"end":102.505,"text":"那第三個在我們接近蘆洲市區的時候他會有一個高架要直接從103號道路做一個高架短的高架然後跨到我們蘆洲做一個引道這樣子這個方案看起來好像是一個有改善交通的這個路網可是事實上是一個騙局他沒有解決了五股地區的交通問題而把淡水和關渡的車流"},{"start":104.566,"end":126.361,"text":"強行的灌入現在現況早就已經是不堪負荷的蘆州 五股地區來這個不是分流 這個是一個引流把台北市的交通問題粗暴的轉嫁給我們五股和蘆州所以讓我們來承受那我們為什麼這麼說呢因為新北市政府出來的其中報告裡面他自己這樣說 他說"},{"start":128.763,"end":147.454,"text":"這個報告他證實了他自己的方案二是一個無效的方案裡面這麼講其中報告第五章的交通需求預測他說到了目標年就是民國130年也就是我們五股的103號的市道的道路服務水準依然是永設的F等級"},{"start":148.294,"end":163.579,"text":"道路服務水準是F等級所以在這種狀況裡面你現在是F等級未來還是F等級所以這是一個改善交通的方案嗎這簡直是華天下之大機嘛第二個現況我們就是F等級了"},{"start":163.959,"end":190.876,"text":"路口的交通非常的涌射103號現在是F加F再加F所以未來還有新的都市計畫的開發然後要引入數十萬的人口所以你再把103號道路的車流引到蘆洲市區要通過蘆洲的三明路然後再經三河路三重的三河路然後再導到台北市區這個是雪上加霜"},{"start":191.576,"end":218.493,"text":"所以在這種狀況可以解決他們原來要的幫大渡路台北市的大渡路分流嗎沒有辦法因為在他們自己的其中報告第四章講淡北道路通車以後並沒有改變原有的車流結構對道路的大渡路的交通影響甚為所以在這裡我們不是盲目的去反對說這個新北市的報告我們全部都反對"},{"start":218.933,"end":240.184,"text":"而是他還有一個方案三這個方案三就是你要蓋一個關渡新橋那你還要加一個配套就是直接以隧道或高架的方式從關渡新橋從大渡路分流來的車流應該要銜接到台64號的快速道路而不應該銜接到只有一線道"},{"start":242.805,"end":264.656,"text":"單向 雙向 雙向兩線道單向一線道的103號道路來所以在這種狀況103號道路的服務水準你把它分流到64號去然後我們才能夠把服務水準從F等級提升到D等級你看它如果沒有這個配套你看右手邊的圖"},{"start":265.757,"end":294.007,"text":"所有的道路不管大渡路或是周邊的所有的系統道路他們的道路服務水準都是橘色黃色的C或D為什麼獨獨我們五谷和蘆洲永遠從現況到未來130年永遠都要是紅色的F等級這種以0為貨的這種道路規劃不符合公平正義所以在這裡我們要見請行政院我們雖然F3"},{"start":295.007,"end":322.448,"text":"F3它評估出來了其實是可行的那我們希望停止以零為獲的這個錯誤的規劃要退回新北市以方案二為主的可行性研究報告我們也希望行政院要跟他們再溝通要啟動方案三的綜合規劃落實真正的路網平衡那我們其實要講最終的解決方法不是方案二也不是方案三其實要回歸問題的根源"},{"start":324.31,"end":338.064,"text":"問題的根源就是當初是為了分流大渡路怕淡北道路開通以後大渡路的車流過多那麼大渡路就應該徹底的解決他的問題就是評估大渡路高價化的可行性"},{"start":339.365,"end":361.562,"text":"關渡新橋是我們中央的美意是地方的期盼但是不可以因為短視近利錯誤的規劃而讓我們造成另一個交通的夢魘為謀其利先謀其害所以我們是不是能夠請部長去溝通然後絕對不能接受我們的方案二"},{"start":362.222,"end":391.508,"text":"好 這個部分跟委員報告我們會請公路局跟地方政府來溝通這個議題就朝委員剛剛您所建議的這個方向來請他們來做考量是 因為終極解決方法大渡路的前半段人家就是州美快速道路就是高架化你把那個高架化延伸到大渡路來把蘇淡北道路來的讓他直接要去台北市的透過大渡路的高架化他可以再引流出去"},{"start":392.168,"end":406.584,"text":"所以沒必要人家現況的大渡路是八線道我們現況103號道路各單向一線道一共兩線道沒有道理讓我們永遠活在F等級裡面好那這樣子我要就叫這個"},{"start":408.373,"end":436.994,"text":"院長另外一個問題中科院中科院54年設立93年改立國防部軍備局你知道他現在改成行政法人是103年改成行政法人所以現在叫做國家中山科學研究院他的設置條例第一條就明定為了提升國防科技能力建立自主國防工業拓展國防及軍民通用的技術特設了國家中山科學院"},{"start":437.774,"end":459.29,"text":"中科院是我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位擔任我國的國防的重要任務過去自主研發國人耳熟能詳的IDF戰機雄風飛彈所以對我們是相當相當重要的一個國防研發和生產單位那請問院長"},{"start":461.451,"end":488.185,"text":"這個中科院在有行政法人設置條例之前是一個有政府是政府的組織的一部分由國家編列預算所以中科院辦理任何的採購案都要適用政府採購法是不是是那他在變成行政法人適用設置條例以後請問他們辦理採購有沒有適用政府採購法"},{"start":489.881,"end":494.394,"text":"是有適用哪裡有適用哪裡適用政府採購法還適用嗎"},{"start":497.81,"end":526.642,"text":"那請委員能夠直接跟保安部說哪一些個方面或哪一個案件沒有啦 院長您這副部長喔 是不記得啦中科院設置條例行政法人化以後他的設置條例第40條第二項就規定了啦他規定什麼你知道嗎他直接規定說這個除了符合政府採購法第4條所定的狀況以外全部都不適用"},{"start":527.282,"end":540.716,"text":"那政府採購法第四條第一項在講什麼你政府補助金額佔據採購金額一半以上補助金額再公告金額一半以上則才適用採購法"},{"start":543.479,"end":569.495,"text":"所以簡單的來說中科院辦理採購只要這個採購案不是政府補助金額超過採購金額一半以上都不是用政府採購法 副部長這樣你聽到嗎好那院長我要跟你講這件事情知識體大為什麼因為不是用政府採購法會發生什麼狀況你知道嗎"},{"start":570.336,"end":598.807,"text":"依據最高法院向來的一貫的見解只有依政府採購法辦理的採購案經手採購的人員才會叫做授權公務員授權公務員才有貪污治罪條例的適用而我們看到媒體的報導這些年來中科院在一些採購案上發生很多的弊案"},{"start":599.767,"end":611.225,"text":"因為不是用採購法造成這些弊案本來是用貪污治罪條例要來管理和制裁的現在通通是用刑法什麼罪你知道嗎刑法什麼罪你知道嗎"},{"start":616.42,"end":645.134,"text":"副部長你不知道對嗎你管的2266老實說院長管的2266刑法的背信罪背信罪背信罪是幾年以下的有期徒刑你知道嗎報告院長報告副部長跟竊盜罪一樣你洩露機密然後大家都知道洩密是因為金錢誘惑嘛那你拿了"},{"start":646.67,"end":669.226,"text":"人家的錢洩密了洩密了以後跟偷一個東西的竊盜罪一樣背信罪的這個刑責是一樣的五年以下請問院長長期以往你覺得這樣子有辦法保護我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位嗎"},{"start":671.447,"end":683.317,"text":"這個轉換成行政法人希望他是更有效率更能夠因應一些突來起來的需要同時他也必須要更積極去面對這些採購上的研發等等問題但是"},{"start":685.41,"end":706.87,"text":"程序上還是要有內機內控我想這個部分絕對不是你講得太好了 院長我現在就是要告訴你中科院內無安全國安理的落實外部沒有應對的法律管制我現在就告訴你說我們立法院的預算中心的評估報告就在這裡中科院承接眾多 中科院"},{"start":707.651,"end":722.861,"text":"其實行政法人都只有兩個彈性一個就是要人我不用再用公務人員資格第二個要錢我不要受政府採購法管制讓他有彈性有靈活可是不要忘了你以為的事實上他都沒有變"},{"start":724.022,"end":746.848,"text":"他曾接眾多國防的科研和產製業業務多設相當機敏性然該院的績效評鑑衡量指標的機密維護已經連續五年沒有達到年度目標值所有中科院的錢97% 98% 都來自哪裡副部長你是做副部長 你不知道喔"},{"start":753.123,"end":754.525,"text":"營運的收入來源主要都靠勞務收入98%"},{"start":770.862,"end":779.305,"text":"然後這98%裡面都來自於國防的科研計畫軍種委託計畫我們請他幫我們生產飛彈請他們幫我們生產武器請他們幫我們製造什麼"},{"start":786.608,"end":812.058,"text":"只有專保都政府委託的但是委託不是補助所以在這種狀況98%是來自於政府給的勞務收入但是裡面都是科研計畫軍種委託計畫 科專計畫其他政府機關委託計畫等等在這種狀況裡面我們發現每年承接這麼多涉及到國家軍事機密 國防秘密的計畫這麼多"},{"start":815.134,"end":825.192,"text":"但是就機密維護出國業務 付入管控文書檔案管理和集合指標連續五年通通不及格你知道有多荒謬嗎 一定我要告訴你聽"},{"start":826.943,"end":844.614,"text":"某中心各專案新版藍圖分化後舊版的藍圖就由受領單位自行銷毀沒有銷毀記錄可及專案網路共用詞區沒有分幾色權限管制瀏覽權限通通都沒有機敏的專案場域內作廢的機密資訊沒有詳實登載於銷毀登記簿"},{"start":851.098,"end":870.572,"text":"某單位門禁系統執行不合格辨識警報鈴響沒作動且後台系統未顯示異常等等等等所以我是要告訴你裡面機密沒有在管理洩密只是跟竊盜罪一樣五年以下的背信罪"},{"start":873.239,"end":888.111,"text":"這個不是非同小可的事情制度面一定要開始思考在目前這個階段我們正在全力的提高國家的國安等級也在增強更多的國安設備所以中科院"},{"start":889.059,"end":897.227,"text":"牽扯到國家重大的這些軍事武器的研發製造等等我們更應該用高標準因為一陣子2023年電纜軍規變陸貨他從軍規偷改成商規文件洩漏給廠商三個員工勾結廠商"},{"start":907.321,"end":930.21,"text":"前一陣子有一個新聞也是啊股票上市公司也是啊不曉得是什麼狀況但是我一直說層出不窮除了在安全等級要中科院包括國防部全面來檢討提振之外關於預算的編列執行也要有合於現在高標準的管控我們現在講的是貪瀆貪瀆而不是背信這個制度面要改好 謝謝林淑芳"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":168,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（15時19分）謝謝院長，是不是請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：院長好。2022年8月我們為了解決淡水的塞車問題，中央核定了淡北道路，但是也核定了18億要蓋一個關渡新橋，我今天就是要討論關渡新橋，這是中央支持，然後地方政府去做了一個關渡新橋，也啟動了淡水河兩岸幹線路網平衡的可行性策略評估，最近他們提出了期中報告，這個期中報告裡面中列為優先推動的是方案二，我今天來跟你說方案二的內容是這樣子的。","首先，它在我們五股市區103線道上有一個優化，就是電線桿地下化；第二個，在關渡新橋蓋好的附近、周遭要做局部的拓寬；第三個，在接近蘆洲市區的時候，會直接從103號道路做一個短的高架，然後跨到我們蘆洲來做一個引道。這個方案看起來好像是一個可以改善交通的路網，可是事實上是一個騙局，沒有解決五股地區的交通問題，而把淡水和關渡的車流強行灌入現況早已是不堪負荷的蘆洲、五股地區來，這不是分流，這是一個引流，把臺北市的交通問題粗暴的轉嫁給我們五股和蘆洲來承受。","我為什麼這麼說呢？因為新北市政府提出來的期中報告證實了他自己的方案二是一個無效的方案；期中報告第五章交通需求預測中說，到了目標年，也就是民國130年，我們五股103號市道的道路服務水準依然是壅塞的F等級，道路服務水準是F等級，在這種狀況下，現在是F等級，未來還是F等級，所以這是一個改善交通的方案嗎？這簡直是滑天下之大稽！","第二個，現況我們就是F等級了，路口的交通非常的壅塞，103號市道現在是F加F，再加F，未來還有新的都市計畫開發，然後要引入數十萬的人口，所以你再把103號道路的車流引到我們蘆洲市區，要通過蘆洲的三民路，再經三重的三和路，然後再導到臺北市去，這個是雪上加霜！在這種狀況下，可以解決原本要幫臺北市大度路的分流嗎？沒有辦法！因為在他們自己的期中報告第四章講到，淡北道路通車以後，並沒有改變原有的車流結構，對大度路的交通影響甚微。","在這裡我們並不是盲目的反對，即新北市的報告我們全部都反對，而是他還有一個方案三，這個方案三就是要蓋一個關渡新橋，然後還要加一個配套，就是直接以隧道或高架的方式，從關渡新橋、從大度路分流來的車流，應該要先接到台64號快速道路，而不應該銜接到只有單向一線道的103號道路來。在這種狀況下，關於103號道路的服務水準，當你把它分流到64號去，我們才能夠把它的服務水準從F等級提升到D等級；如果沒有這個配套，你看看右手邊的圖，所有的道路不管是大度路或是周邊所有的系統道路，他們的道路服務水準都是橘色、黃色的C或D，為什麼獨獨我們五股和蘆洲從現況到未來130年，永遠都是紅色的F等級？這種以鄰為壑的道路規劃不符合公平正義！所以在這裡我們要建請行政院，雖然F3評估出來了，其實是可行的，我們希望停止以鄰為壑這個錯誤的規劃，要退回新北市以方案二為主的可行性研究報告，我們也希望行政院要跟他們再溝通，要啟動方案三的綜合規劃，落實真正的路網平衡。我們要講其實的最終解決方法不是方案二也不是方案三，應該要回歸問題的根源，問題的根源就是當初為了分流大度路，怕在淡北道路開通以後大度路的車流過多，那麼就應該澈底的解決大度路的問題，就是評估大度路高架化的可行性。關渡新橋是我們中央的美意、是地方的期盼，但是不可以因為短視近利、錯誤的規劃而造成我們另一個交通的夢魘，反而未蒙其利、先受其害，所以我們是不是能夠請部長去溝通，然後絕對不能接受方案二？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，關於這個部分，我們會請公路局跟地方政府來溝通這個議題，就朝委員剛剛所建議的這個方向來請他們考量。"],["林委員淑芬：是，因為終極的解決方法就是大度路的高架化，像前半段的洲美快速道路就是高架化，你把那個高架化延伸到大度路來，把從淡北道路來的、要直接去臺北市的，透過大度路的高架化就可以再引流出去，大度路的現況是八線道，而我們103號道路的現況是單向一線道、一共兩線道，沒有道理讓我們永遠活在F等級裡面。","我要就教院長另外一個問題，中科院在54年設立，93年改隸國防部軍備局，你也知道它在103年改成行政法人，所以現在叫做國家中山科學研究院，它的設置條例第一條就明定：「為提升國防科技能力，建立自主國防工業，拓展國防及軍民通用技術，特設國家中山科學研究院」。中科院是我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位，擔任我國國防的重要任務，過去自主研發國人耳熟能詳的IDF戰機、雄風飛彈，對我們來說是一個相當、相當重要的國防研發和生產單位，請問院長，中科院在有行政法人設置條例之前是政府組織的一部分，由國家編列預算，所以中科院辦理任何的採購案都要適用政府採購法，是不是？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是。"],["林委員淑芬：那它在變成行政法人、適用設置條例以後，請問他們辦理採購有沒有適用政府採購法？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是有適用。"],["林委員淑芬：哪裡有適用？哪裡適用政府採購法？還適用嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員能夠直接跟國防部說哪些方面或哪一個案件……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！院長，你們這個副部長不及格啦！中科院在行政法人化以後，它的設置條例第四十條第二項就規定了，你知道是規定什麼嗎？就是直接規定「除符合政府採購法第四條所定情形，應依該規定辦理外，不適用該法之規定」，那政府採購法第四條第一項是規定什麼？就是政府補助金額占採購金額一半以上，且補助金額在公告金額以上者，才適用採購法。所以簡單來說，中科院辦理採購，只要這個採購案不是政府補助金額超過採購金額一半以上，都不適用政府採購法，副部長，這樣你聽得懂嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員淑芬：好，院長，我要跟你講，這件事情茲事體大，為什麼？因為不適用政府採購法會發生什麼狀況，你知道嗎？依據最高法院向來一貫的見解，只有依政府採購法辦理的採購案，經手採購的人員才會叫做授權公務員，而授權公務員才有貪污治罪條例的適用。我們看到媒體的報導，這些年來中科院在一些採購案上發生很多的弊案，因為不適用採購法，造成這些弊案本來是要用貪污治罪條例來管理和制裁的，現在通通是用刑法什麼罪？你知道嗎？你知道是刑法什麼罪嗎？副部長，你不知道？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是。"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛！你管得離離落落，老實說，院長，管得離離落落，刑法的背信罪。背信罪是幾年以下有期徒刑，你知道嗎？報告院長、報告副部長，跟竊盜罪一樣，你洩露機密，大家都知道洩密是因為金錢誘惑，你拿了人家的錢洩密了，洩密之後與偷一個東西的竊盜罪一樣，與背信罪的刑責一樣是五年以下。請問院長，長期以往，你覺得這樣子有辦法保護我們國家最重要的國防研發單位和生產單位嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：轉換成行政法人是希望更有效率，更能夠因應一些突如其來的需要，同時也必須要更積極去面對這些採購、研發等問題，但是程序上還是要有內稽內控，我想這個部分絕對不是……"],["林委員淑芬：你講得太好了，院長，我現在就是要告訴你，中科院內無安全管理的落實，外部沒有應對的法律管制。我現在就告訴你，我們立法院預算中心的評估報告就在這裡，中科院承接眾多……其實行政法人都只有兩個彈性，一個就是要人，不要再有公務人員資格；第二個是要錢，不要受政府採購法管制，讓它有彈性、更靈活。可是不要忘了，你以為的事實上都沒有變，中科院承接眾多國防科研和產製案，業務多涉相當機敏性，然該院績效評鑑衡量指標中的機密維護已經連續5年沒有達到年度目標值，中科院的錢97%、98%都來自哪裡，副部長？你是副部長，你不知道嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：不好意思。"],["林委員淑芬：中科院一年有幾千億、九千多億，幾千億的錢都是來自哪裡，你知道嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：委員剛剛講的這個事情，我們回去做一個專案研究……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係啦！你不知道我告訴你，營運的收入來源主要都靠勞務收入，98%都來自於國防的科研計畫、軍種委託計畫，我們請它幫我們生產飛彈，請它幫我們生產武器，請它幫我們製造什麼，錢全部都是政府委託的，但是委託不是補助，98%是來自於政府給的勞務收入，裡面都是科研計畫、軍種委託計畫、科專計畫、其他政府機關委託計畫等等。在這種狀況裡面，我們發現每年承接這麼多涉及到國家軍事機密、國防秘密的計畫，這麼多、這麼多，但是就機密維護、出國業務、赴陸管控、文書檔案管理和稽核指標連續5年統統不及格，你知道有多荒謬嗎？院長，我說給你聽，某中心各專案新版藍圖分發後，舊版藍圖就由受領單位自行銷毀，沒有銷毀紀錄可稽，專案網路共用磁區沒有分級設權限，管制瀏覽權限統統都沒有，機敏專案場域內作廢的機密資訊沒有翔實登載於銷毀登記簿、某單位門禁系統執行不合格辨識、警報鈴響沒動作且後臺系統未顯示異常等等，所以我是要告訴你裡面的機密沒有在管理，洩密只是跟竊盜罪一樣五年以下的背信罪，院長，這是非同小可的事情，制度面一定要開始思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員今天提出這個非常重要的提醒，報告委員，在目前這個階段，我們正在全力提高國家的國安等級，也在增強更多的國安設備。"],["林委員淑芬：那這件事情就很重要了。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以中科院牽扯到國家重大的這些軍事武器的研發、製造等等，我們更應該用高標準，我會請國防部……"],["林委員淑芬：這一陣子2023年電纜軍規變陸貨，從軍規偷改成商規，文件洩漏給廠商，三個員工勾結廠商，前一陣子有一個新聞也是，股票上市公司也是，不曉得是什麼狀況，但是我的意思是層出不窮。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了在安全等級上要中科院包括國防部，全面來檢討、提升之外，關於預算的編列、執行也要有合於現在高標準的管控。"],["林委員淑芬：不是，我們現在講的是貪瀆，而不是背信，這個制度面要改革。"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來，我們請今天最後一位徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":79,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","陳雪生","羅明才","吳秉叡","涂權吉","林淑芬","徐巧芯"],"page_start":23,"meetingDate":["2025-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1148301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148301_00002","1148301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148301_00003"}}}