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\"start\": 736.151, \"end\": 736.251, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 736.251, \"end\": 736.492, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 736.492, \"end\": 737.673, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 737.673, \"end\": 737.873, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 737.873, \"end\": 738.254, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 738.254, \"end\": 740.516, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 740.516, \"end\": 740.676, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 740.676, \"end\": 740.877, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 740.877, \"end\": 741.137, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 741.137, \"end\": 741.337, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 741.337, \"end\": 741.617, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 741.617, \"end\": 741.938, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 741.938, \"end\": 742.318, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 742.318, \"end\": 742.498, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"控\", \"start\": 742.498, \"end\": 742.679, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 742.679, \"end\": 742.779, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 742.779, \"end\": 742.919, \"score\": 0.677}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 742.919, \"end\": 743.159, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 743.159, \"end\": 743.339, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 743.339, \"end\": 743.66, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 743.66, \"end\": 743.68, \"score\": 0.048}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,203 --> 00:00:03,767\n好我們麻煩人事長這邊先謝謝陳佩玉委員來請人事長\n\n2\n00:00:09,439 --> 00:00:27,923\n委員長早安我直接就開門見山的請教你是不是認同就是軍公教這些公務員是國家穩定的力量是不是我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家穩定那這些國家棟樑他會是國家的國安風險嗎潛在的國安風險嗎你會認為是這樣嗎\n\n3\n00:00:35,684 --> 00:00:55,116\n在一個組織的範疇裡面一定會有少數是屬於風險人物所以為什麼我們在很多的機關會設政控單位來協助identify那些高風險分子好謝謝我現在有一個問題一直以來的問題而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題他們說\n\n4\n00:00:58,464 --> 00:01:19,937\n公務員是國家的棟樑但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可回國後也限七天內要報備這對不對這沒錯吧所以他們有一些在抱怨說他們的爸爸媽媽在大陸工作他們為了過去看他們那一樣他就覺得好像是在被拷問一樣\n\n5\n00:01:22,398 --> 00:01:50,416\n他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全國家任何機密資料的人但是呢他就說卻得受到很多限制那感覺好像被盯哨那我想問一下一個問題這應該很簡單解釋長期就這麼樣了就是一個不涉及機密資料的基層鑑任級的公務員他去歐洲旅遊但是呢他需要在中國大陸轉機那這時候是不是要先提出申請許可\n\n6\n00:01:52,292 --> 00:02:13,427\n目前是需要這106年開始就要所以這個很奇怪就是說今天連轉機不管是入境轉機或者是機場轉機都要申請許可所以我先強調我絕對100%支持國家安全而且我痛恨出賣我們台灣出賣國家的人\n\n7\n00:02:14,227 --> 00:02:28,703\n所以我支持反滲透我不像有些官員國外有家家人都住在國外如果台灣出狀況我沒有地方跑我家老小都在台灣所以台灣是我的家\n\n8\n00:02:29,804 --> 00:02:46,242\n所以任何洩露國防機密的任何侵害我國國家安全的我們都不可以手軟但是我們的手段也要合理正當我們不能讓政府用反滲透的這個民意然後進行前置自由的這個現實\n\n9\n00:02:48,484 --> 00:03:06,780\n所以剛剛人長你也認同就是說我們公務員是國家穩定的力量可是你要正視一個問題就是國家是不是過度的汙名化或是刁難或是用一些恐懼的方式去對付這些公務員請人長你要特別注意這個點\n\n10\n00:03:08,035 --> 00:03:22,880\n因為法律雖然是陸委會等等其他機關他們所訂的但是制度是你們所處理的對不對一些表格啦一些申報單什麼都是你們在做的嘛所以你們不能說這個是跟你們無關好不好你們注意一下\n\n11\n00:03:24,140 --> 00:03:44,838\n為什麼會這麼說我待會還會再提到這段時間離職率暴增的問題因為我們講人會用腳投票其實離職率暴增的40幾%其實是對於首長你的不認同所以你一定要特別注意這個點我知道你已經很努力在為公務員但是這會不會是因為政府大環境的問題那我再提一個\n\n12\n00:03:46,072 --> 00:04:12,272\n我認為最近一直有一個問題就是你們一直很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸那邊有沒有戶籍等等的但是你們卻放縱高層的行政部中立我舉個例子我先請教一下我直接講兩岸條例第九條公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可這個是法律規定的所以你們也不得不做對不對按照規定就是一定要做\n\n13\n00:04:13,752 --> 00:04:42,655\n但是呢我再提第二個這個東西是你們必須依法行政我認同因為我國兩案條例第九條有做這樣的規定所以你們必須這麼處理我覺得這是沒問題但是啊公務員服務法第一條它也有要求要依法行政啊那你們有沒有看到現在很多高官都不依法行政我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題譬如說好我直接講譬如說卓鴻泰院長他不依法編列軍警銷的待遇跟退休金預算\n\n14\n00:04:43,769 --> 00:05:09,824\n那這種人不應該嚴辦嗎所以我今天看到的就是你對出盡戶籍你釘得半死對基層公務員下手很重但是對於高層的直接違法你們都當作沒有看到那甚至像之前那個花蓮災情的時候有一個81人群組因為這是公開的訊息我就直接講他裡面有出現殺傷力訊息跟行政院秘書長張純然說跟四方處理中\n\n15\n00:05:11,306 --> 00:05:29,082\n這種完全違反行政中立的事情請問一下你們有真的有去正視這個問題嗎他們沒有把我加入群組所以我比較不清楚我知道但是不是你不能這樣講啊那公務員違法犯罪也沒有把我加入群組我就不處理他嗎你不能講這句話啦\n\n16\n00:05:29,562 --> 00:05:45,826\n不過我跟委員報告一件事就是說行政院對金人待遇條例還有警察人員的人事條例這兩個規定坦白講以行政院立場他已經提出跟憲法法庭去做釋憲的動作在這個釋憲結果還沒有出來胡說八道\n\n17\n00:05:50,527 --> 00:06:12,282\n哪一個法律有這樣規定的你告訴我你現在告訴我哪一個法律有規定這樣申請釋憲就可以不動作你去看憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法這樣規定嗎你們這胡說八道我跟你講你今天在我面前我真的很尊敬你的人你今天在我面前你竟然違法的告訴全國國人這個錯誤的法律概念\n\n18\n00:06:13,527 --> 00:06:39,458\n你不可以這樣做我一直很尊重你欸我覺得你至少是個講道理的人欸憲法訴訟法不是這樣規範的你不能這樣子講你在這邊講的每一句話都是在誤導國人欸你想你現在是是左榮泰的鸚鵡嗎你可以這樣嗎憲法訴訟法52條你提起憲法訴訟你是不停止法律的適用欸不是說停止就停止欸左榮泰直接違法違憲欸\n\n19\n00:06:41,887 --> 00:06:53,340\n算了這不是你的事那我不要講請你不要附送行政院院長違法的論述我很討厭行政官員你是高官高官來這裡還說出違法的話就不對了\n\n20\n00:06:54,485 --> 00:07:12,311\n如果你今天不想碰这件事我觉得是没有关系但你不能直接在那边告诉国人违法的事情申请释宪不会停止法律的适用所以我一直跟人家讲那我认为税捐基金法违宪我申请释宪那是我从今天开始不用缴税可以这样吗宪法诉讼法52条就说不行嘛\n\n21\n00:07:13,431 --> 00:07:39,026\n所以你既然在那邊這樣子我覺得不應該啦好那81人群組那個我想喔你沒有回答你說你不在裡面好那就算了但是我在這邊跟您報告那個完全違反行政的中立因為那個時間點也不應該救災的黃金旗他們也是政務官也是領國家薪水而且殺傷力訊息這個在一般行政文書上面不會用所以等於你們救高官的部分違法你們都不管啊對不對\n\n22\n00:07:40,907 --> 00:07:51,216\n然後呢基層員工基層的人去大陸你們就要管欸那個主席報告主席先暫停一下我有一個會議詢問我想請教一下先暫停一下\n\n23\n00:07:52,950 --> 00:08:14,137\n我要暫停你都問你會怎樣我要會議詢問你要問哪一個時間我會給你不用詢問繼續我想請教因為我們現在公務員出國是今天的議題公務員出國要申報許可那我想請教一下那個那目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可這個你就直接主席不是你那個質詢的對象\n\n24\n00:08:15,077 --> 00:08:34,526\n不是不是我說我會議詢問嘛會議詢問你可以不回答人事長在這個地方你就質詢就好主席你是老立委我們應該對於沒有那麼老啦跟你一樣你是執政的立委我們對議事規則都很清楚其實我們委員是可以對主席提出會議詢問的沒關係主席不方便回答學務5G好謝謝主席\n\n25\n00:08:39,128 --> 00:08:59,822\n我這邊講很簡單啦就我剛問主席主席不方便回答就是民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨先生事先許可我不知道那主席也不方便講那但是呢我們的公務員我回答你一下因為你一直要我回答我告訴你喔六都的民進黨台北市議院連申請都不用申請因為連讓你去都不讓你去不是啦\n\n26\n00:09:00,462 --> 00:09:13,162\n立法委員主席你不能歪掉我說黨員我不是說公職啦謝謝公職一定有民進黨的黨員就不是在這個地方被你質詢的對象嗎好不好你要想問我私底下來告訴你好沒關係那就這樣\n\n27\n00:09:15,686 --> 00:09:43,123\n好啦我的問題很簡單啦我想大家都聽得懂我的問題就只是黨員那所以我對於公務員連不涉及機密的公務員赴大陸要這樣做我是覺得很奇怪啦其實這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任因為整個國家就在配合的政府在那邊做一些奇怪的事情第二個任何法律的規定其實你要考量到它的比例原則也就是目的手段這是憲法規定的\n\n28\n00:09:43,883 --> 00:10:11,061\n那你今天他去那裡落地或去那裡他會泄密嗎如果要泄密我通訊軟體也可以泄密啊我約第三國也可以泄密啊這個時代跟二次大戰前不一樣秘密的交付他有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞的方式所以你禁止他去你能做到的只是我們讓國人更少去大陸不要了解那些狀況讓兩岸更不了解對方你做到了\n\n29\n00:10:11,980 --> 00:10:28,947\n目的只有這個所以這個到底意義在哪裡我認為不符合比例原則因為時間到了那剛主席也沒有讓我時間暫停我想我就提了一下就是因為您上任到現在這最後您上任到現在\n\n30\n00:10:30,253 --> 00:10:58,030\n離職率暴增了41%其實這是對於身為人事總署最高主管你的一個最大的否定所以請你要注意一下因為我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾媽淨基層沒有尊嚴感所以新人不想考進來當公務員年輕人流失光光請問一下這個制度是我們以前的觀念裡面要把一流人才帶進政府嗎所以我想\n\n31\n00:10:59,392 --> 00:11:19,513\n兩個月內我想麻煩你們給我一份報告在這裡就是對於賦入報備必須風險分級還有精確治理這部分麻煩你們給我報告我剛剛講了法制雖然是陸委會他們但是你們管理跟表格等等那個是你們而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係\n\n32\n00:11:20,894 --> 00:11:44,916\n那最後我也請你們再研議一個東西就是違反規定可不可以一事不在理的用兩岸人民條例還有公務員懲戒法兩個都下去處罰你們注意一下這個點那我知道你一定會跟我說因為兩個法規的性質不合所以重疊這樣去處罰與法沒有違反但是我也跟你講大法官的見解已經不是這樣大官見解認為說\n\n33\n00:11:46,317 --> 00:12:13,409\n你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰有可能違反醫師不在理因為如果說這個同意行為他沒有侵害到多重法益這個時候其實他不應該受到多重的處罰如果你們不清楚你可以來問我們我這邊或我們辦公室那邊跟你講不然你刑罰也下去懲處也下去這等於是違反醫師不在理的雙重處罰這部分麻煩你們能夠\n\n34\n00:12:14,309 --> 00:12:23,680\n演繹一下順便給我不懂的你們可以問我好謝謝吳宗憲委員這個口才越來越好但是時間就控制得比較差一點好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1203\t3767\t好 我們麻煩人事長這邊先謝謝陳佩玉委員來 請人事長\n9439\t27923\t委員長早安我直接就開門見山的請教你是不是認同就是軍公教這些公務員是國家穩定的力量是不是我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家穩定那這些國家棟樑他會是國家的國安風險嗎潛在的國安風險嗎你會認為是這樣嗎\n35684\t55116\t在一個組織的範疇裡面一定會有少數是屬於風險人物所以為什麼我們在很多的機關會設政控單位來協助identify那些高風險分子好 謝謝我現在有一個問題一直以來的問題而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題他們說\n58464\t79937\t公務員是國家的棟樑但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可回國後也限七天內要報備這對不對 這沒錯吧所以他們有一些在抱怨說他們的爸爸媽媽在大陸工作他們為了過去看他們那一樣他就覺得好像是在被拷問一樣\n82398\t110416\t他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全國家任何機密資料的人但是呢他就說卻得受到很多限制那感覺好像被盯哨那我想問一下一個問題這應該很簡單解釋長期就這麼樣了就是一個不涉及機密資料的基層鑑任級的公務員他去歐洲旅遊但是呢他需要在中國大陸轉機那這時候是不是要先提出申請許可\n112292\t133427\t目前是需要這106年開始就要所以這個很奇怪就是說今天連轉機不管是入境轉機或者是機場轉機都要申請許可所以我先強調我絕對100%支持國家安全而且我痛恨出賣我們台灣出賣國家的人\n134227\t148703\t所以我支持反滲透我不像有些官員國外有家家人都住在國外如果台灣出狀況我沒有地方跑我家老小都在台灣所以台灣是我的家\n149804\t166242\t所以任何洩露國防機密的任何侵害我國國家安全的我們都不可以手軟但是我們的手段也要合理正當我們不能讓政府用反滲透的這個民意然後進行前置自由的這個現實\n168484\t186780\t所以剛剛人長你也認同就是說我們公務員是國家穩定的力量可是你要正視一個問題就是國家是不是過度的汙名化或是刁難或是用一些恐懼的方式去對付這些公務員請人長你要特別注意這個點\n188035\t202880\t因為法律雖然是陸委會等等其他機關他們所訂的但是制度是你們所處理的對不對一些表格啦一些申報單什麼都是你們在做的嘛所以你們不能說這個是跟你們無關好不好你們注意一下\n204140\t224838\t為什麼會這麼說我待會還會再提到這段時間離職率暴增的問題因為我們講人會用腳投票其實離職率暴增的40幾%其實是對於首長你的不認同所以你一定要特別注意這個點我知道你已經很努力在為公務員但是這會不會是因為政府大環境的問題那我再提一個\n226072\t252272\t我認為最近一直有一個問題就是你們一直很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸那邊有沒有戶籍等等的但是你們卻放縱高層的行政部中立我舉個例子 我先請教一下我直接講 兩岸條例第九條公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可這個是法律規定的 所以你們也不得不做對不對按照規定就是一定要做\n253752\t282655\t但是呢 我再提第二個這個東西是你們必須依法行政我認同 因為我國兩案條例第九條有做這樣的規定所以你們必須這麼處理我覺得這是沒問題但是啊公務員服務法第一條它也有要求要依法行政啊那你們有沒有看到現在很多高官都不依法行政我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題譬如說 好 我直接講譬如說卓鴻泰院長他不依法編列軍警銷的待遇跟退休金預算\n283769\t309824\t那這種人不應該嚴辦嗎所以我今天看到的就是你對出盡戶籍你釘得半死對基層公務員下手很重但是對於高層的直接違法你們都當作沒有看到那甚至像之前那個花蓮災情的時候有一個81人群組因為這是公開的訊息我就直接講他裡面有出現殺傷力訊息跟行政院秘書長張純然說跟四方處理中\n311306\t329082\t這種完全違反行政中立的事情請問一下你們有真的有去正視這個問題嗎他們沒有把我加入群組所以我比較不清楚我知道 但是不是 你不能這樣講啊那公務員違法犯罪也沒有把我加入群組我就不處理他嗎你不能講這句話啦\n329562\t345826\t不過我跟委員報告一件事就是說行政院對金人待遇條例還有警察人員的人事條例這兩個規定坦白講以行政院立場他已經提出跟憲法法庭去做釋憲的動作在這個釋憲結果還沒有出來胡說八道\n350527\t372282\t哪一個法律有這樣規定的你告訴我你現在告訴我哪一個法律有規定這樣申請釋憲就可以不動作你去看憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法這樣規定嗎你們這胡說八道我跟你講你今天在我面前我真的很尊敬你的人你今天在我面前你竟然違法的告訴全國國人這個錯誤的法律概念\n373527\t399458\t你不可以這樣做 我一直很尊重你欸我覺得你至少是個講道理的人欸憲法訴訟法 不是這樣規範的你不能這樣子講你在這邊講的每一句話都是在誤導國人欸你想 你現在是是左榮泰的鸚鵡嗎你可以這樣嗎憲法訴訟法52條你提起憲法訴訟你是不停止法律的適用欸不是說停止就停止欸左榮泰直接違法違憲欸\n401887\t413340\t算了這不是你的事那我不要講請你不要附送行政院院長違法的論述我很討厭行政官員你是高官高官來這裡還說出違法的話就不對了\n414485\t432311\t如果你今天不想碰这件事我觉得是没有关系但你不能直接在那边告诉国人违法的事情申请释宪不会停止法律的适用所以我一直跟人家讲那我认为税捐基金法违宪我申请释宪那是我从今天开始不用缴税可以这样吗宪法诉讼法52条就说不行嘛\n433431\t459026\t所以你既然在那邊這樣子 我覺得不應該啦好 那81人群組那個 我想喔你沒有回答 你說你不在裡面 好 那就算了但是我在這邊跟您報告那個完全違反行政的中立因為那個時間點也不應該 救災的黃金旗他們也是政務官 也是領國家薪水而且殺傷力訊息 這個在一般行政文書上面不會用所以等於你們救高官的部分違法你們都不管啊 對不對\n460907\t471216\t然後呢 基層員工基層的人去大陸你們就要管欸 那個主席 報告主席先暫停一下 我有一個會議詢問我想請教一下先暫停一下\n472950\t494137\t我要暫停 你都問你會怎樣我要會議詢問你要問哪一個時間我會給你 不用詢問 繼續我想請教因為我們現在公務員出國是今天的議題公務員出國要申報許可那我想請教一下那個那目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可這個你就直接主席不是你那個質詢的對象\n495077\t514526\t不是不是 我說我會議詢問嘛會議詢問 你可以不回答人事長在這個地方 你就質詢就好主席 你是老立委 我們應該對於沒有那麼老啦 跟你一樣你是執政的立委我們對議事規則都很清楚其實我們委員是可以對主席提出會議詢問的沒關係 主席不方便回答學務5G 好 謝謝主席\n519128\t539822\t我這邊講很簡單啦 就我剛問主席 主席不方便回答就是民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨先生事先許可我不知道 那主席也不方便講那但是呢 我們的公務員我回答你一下 因為你一直要我回答 我告訴你喔六都的民進黨台北市議院 連申請都不用申請因為連讓你去都不讓你去 不是啦\n540462\t553162\t立法委員主席你不能歪掉我說黨員我不是說公職啦謝謝公職一定有民進黨的黨員就不是在這個地方被你質詢的對象嗎好不好你要想問我私底下來告訴你好沒關係那就這樣\n555686\t583123\t好啦 我的問題很簡單啦我想大家都聽得懂我的問題就只是黨員那所以我對於公務員連不涉及機密的公務員赴大陸要這樣做我是覺得很奇怪啦其實這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任因為整個國家就在配合的政府在那邊做一些奇怪的事情第二個 任何法律的規定其實你要考量到它的比例原則也就是目的手段這是憲法規定的\n583883\t611061\t那你今天他去那裡落地或去那裡他會泄密嗎如果要泄密我通訊軟體也可以泄密啊我約第三國也可以泄密啊這個時代跟二次大戰前不一樣秘密的交付他有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞的方式所以你禁止他去你能做到的只是我們讓國人更少去大陸不要了解那些狀況讓兩岸更不了解對方你做到了\n611980\t628947\t目的只有這個所以這個到底意義在哪裡我認為不符合比例原則因為時間到了那剛主席也沒有讓我時間暫停我想 我就提了一下就是因為您上任到現在這最後 您上任到現在\n630253\t658030\t離職率暴增了41%其實這是對於身為人事總署最高主管你的一個最大的否定所以請你要注意一下因為我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾媽淨基層沒有尊嚴感所以新人不想考進來當公務員年輕人流失光光請問一下這個制度是我們以前的觀念裡面要把一流人才帶進政府嗎所以我想\n659392\t679513\t兩個月內我想麻煩你們給我一份報告在這裡就是對於賦入報備必須風險分級還有精確治理這部分麻煩你們給我報告我剛剛講了法制雖然是陸委會他們但是你們管理跟表格等等那個是你們而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係\n680894\t704916\t那最後我也請你們再研議一個東西就是違反規定可不可以一事不在理的用兩岸人民條例還有公務員懲戒法兩個都下去處罰你們注意一下這個點那我知道你一定會跟我說因為兩個法規的性質不合所以重疊這樣去處罰與法沒有違反但是我也跟你講大法官的見解已經不是這樣大官見解認為說\n706317\t733409\t你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰有可能違反醫師不在理因為如果說這個同意行為他沒有侵害到多重法益這個時候其實他不應該受到多重的處罰如果你們不清楚你可以來問我們我這邊或我們辦公室那邊跟你講不然你刑罰也下去懲處也下去這等於是違反醫師不在理的雙重處罰這部分麻煩你們能夠\n734309\t743680\t演繹一下順便給我 不懂的你們可以問我好 謝謝吳宗憲委員這個口才越來越好但是時間就控制得比較差一點好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 我們麻煩人事長這邊先謝謝陳佩玉委員來 請人事長\n委員長早安我直接就開門見山的請教你是不是認同就是軍公教這些公務員是國家穩定的力量是不是我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家穩定那這些國家棟樑他會是國家的國安風險嗎潛在的國安風險嗎你會認為是這樣嗎\n在一個組織的範疇裡面一定會有少數是屬於風險人物所以為什麼我們在很多的機關會設政控單位來協助identify那些高風險分子好 謝謝我現在有一個問題一直以來的問題而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題他們說\n公務員是國家的棟樑但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可回國後也限七天內要報備這對不對 這沒錯吧所以他們有一些在抱怨說他們的爸爸媽媽在大陸工作他們為了過去看他們那一樣他就覺得好像是在被拷問一樣\n他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全國家任何機密資料的人但是呢他就說卻得受到很多限制那感覺好像被盯哨那我想問一下一個問題這應該很簡單解釋長期就這麼樣了就是一個不涉及機密資料的基層鑑任級的公務員他去歐洲旅遊但是呢他需要在中國大陸轉機那這時候是不是要先提出申請許可\n目前是需要這106年開始就要所以這個很奇怪就是說今天連轉機不管是入境轉機或者是機場轉機都要申請許可所以我先強調我絕對100%支持國家安全而且我痛恨出賣我們台灣出賣國家的人\n所以我支持反滲透我不像有些官員國外有家家人都住在國外如果台灣出狀況我沒有地方跑我家老小都在台灣所以台灣是我的家\n所以任何洩露國防機密的任何侵害我國國家安全的我們都不可以手軟但是我們的手段也要合理正當我們不能讓政府用反滲透的這個民意然後進行前置自由的這個現實\n所以剛剛人長你也認同就是說我們公務員是國家穩定的力量可是你要正視一個問題就是國家是不是過度的汙名化或是刁難或是用一些恐懼的方式去對付這些公務員請人長你要特別注意這個點\n因為法律雖然是陸委會等等其他機關他們所訂的但是制度是你們所處理的對不對一些表格啦一些申報單什麼都是你們在做的嘛所以你們不能說這個是跟你們無關好不好你們注意一下\n為什麼會這麼說我待會還會再提到這段時間離職率暴增的問題因為我們講人會用腳投票其實離職率暴增的40幾%其實是對於首長你的不認同所以你一定要特別注意這個點我知道你已經很努力在為公務員但是這會不會是因為政府大環境的問題那我再提一個\n我認為最近一直有一個問題就是你們一直很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸那邊有沒有戶籍等等的但是你們卻放縱高層的行政部中立我舉個例子 我先請教一下我直接講 兩岸條例第九條公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可這個是法律規定的 所以你們也不得不做對不對按照規定就是一定要做\n但是呢 我再提第二個這個東西是你們必須依法行政我認同 因為我國兩案條例第九條有做這樣的規定所以你們必須這麼處理我覺得這是沒問題但是啊公務員服務法第一條它也有要求要依法行政啊那你們有沒有看到現在很多高官都不依法行政我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題譬如說 好 我直接講譬如說卓鴻泰院長他不依法編列軍警銷的待遇跟退休金預算\n那這種人不應該嚴辦嗎所以我今天看到的就是你對出盡戶籍你釘得半死對基層公務員下手很重但是對於高層的直接違法你們都當作沒有看到那甚至像之前那個花蓮災情的時候有一個81人群組因為這是公開的訊息我就直接講他裡面有出現殺傷力訊息跟行政院秘書長張純然說跟四方處理中\n這種完全違反行政中立的事情請問一下你們有真的有去正視這個問題嗎他們沒有把我加入群組所以我比較不清楚我知道 但是不是 你不能這樣講啊那公務員違法犯罪也沒有把我加入群組我就不處理他嗎你不能講這句話啦\n不過我跟委員報告一件事就是說行政院對金人待遇條例還有警察人員的人事條例這兩個規定坦白講以行政院立場他已經提出跟憲法法庭去做釋憲的動作在這個釋憲結果還沒有出來胡說八道\n哪一個法律有這樣規定的你告訴我你現在告訴我哪一個法律有規定這樣申請釋憲就可以不動作你去看憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法這樣規定嗎你們這胡說八道我跟你講你今天在我面前我真的很尊敬你的人你今天在我面前你竟然違法的告訴全國國人這個錯誤的法律概念\n你不可以這樣做 我一直很尊重你欸我覺得你至少是個講道理的人欸憲法訴訟法 不是這樣規範的你不能這樣子講你在這邊講的每一句話都是在誤導國人欸你想 你現在是是左榮泰的鸚鵡嗎你可以這樣嗎憲法訴訟法52條你提起憲法訴訟你是不停止法律的適用欸不是說停止就停止欸左榮泰直接違法違憲欸\n算了這不是你的事那我不要講請你不要附送行政院院長違法的論述我很討厭行政官員你是高官高官來這裡還說出違法的話就不對了\n如果你今天不想碰这件事我觉得是没有关系但你不能直接在那边告诉国人违法的事情申请释宪不会停止法律的适用所以我一直跟人家讲那我认为税捐基金法违宪我申请释宪那是我从今天开始不用缴税可以这样吗宪法诉讼法52条就说不行嘛\n所以你既然在那邊這樣子 我覺得不應該啦好 那81人群組那個 我想喔你沒有回答 你說你不在裡面 好 那就算了但是我在這邊跟您報告那個完全違反行政的中立因為那個時間點也不應該 救災的黃金旗他們也是政務官 也是領國家薪水而且殺傷力訊息 這個在一般行政文書上面不會用所以等於你們救高官的部分違法你們都不管啊 對不對\n然後呢 基層員工基層的人去大陸你們就要管欸 那個主席 報告主席先暫停一下 我有一個會議詢問我想請教一下先暫停一下\n我要暫停 你都問你會怎樣我要會議詢問你要問哪一個時間我會給你 不用詢問 繼續我想請教因為我們現在公務員出國是今天的議題公務員出國要申報許可那我想請教一下那個那目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可這個你就直接主席不是你那個質詢的對象\n不是不是 我說我會議詢問嘛會議詢問 你可以不回答人事長在這個地方 你就質詢就好主席 你是老立委 我們應該對於沒有那麼老啦 跟你一樣你是執政的立委我們對議事規則都很清楚其實我們委員是可以對主席提出會議詢問的沒關係 主席不方便回答學務5G 好 謝謝主席\n我這邊講很簡單啦 就我剛問主席 主席不方便回答就是民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨先生事先許可我不知道 那主席也不方便講那但是呢 我們的公務員我回答你一下 因為你一直要我回答 我告訴你喔六都的民進黨台北市議院 連申請都不用申請因為連讓你去都不讓你去 不是啦\n立法委員主席你不能歪掉我說黨員我不是說公職啦謝謝公職一定有民進黨的黨員就不是在這個地方被你質詢的對象嗎好不好你要想問我私底下來告訴你好沒關係那就這樣\n好啦 我的問題很簡單啦我想大家都聽得懂我的問題就只是黨員那所以我對於公務員連不涉及機密的公務員赴大陸要這樣做我是覺得很奇怪啦其實這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任因為整個國家就在配合的政府在那邊做一些奇怪的事情第二個 任何法律的規定其實你要考量到它的比例原則也就是目的手段這是憲法規定的\n那你今天他去那裡落地或去那裡他會泄密嗎如果要泄密我通訊軟體也可以泄密啊我約第三國也可以泄密啊這個時代跟二次大戰前不一樣秘密的交付他有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞的方式所以你禁止他去你能做到的只是我們讓國人更少去大陸不要了解那些狀況讓兩岸更不了解對方你做到了\n目的只有這個所以這個到底意義在哪裡我認為不符合比例原則因為時間到了那剛主席也沒有讓我時間暫停我想 我就提了一下就是因為您上任到現在這最後 您上任到現在\n離職率暴增了41%其實這是對於身為人事總署最高主管你的一個最大的否定所以請你要注意一下因為我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾媽淨基層沒有尊嚴感所以新人不想考進來當公務員年輕人流失光光請問一下這個制度是我們以前的觀念裡面要把一流人才帶進政府嗎所以我想\n兩個月內我想麻煩你們給我一份報告在這裡就是對於賦入報備必須風險分級還有精確治理這部分麻煩你們給我報告我剛剛講了法制雖然是陸委會他們但是你們管理跟表格等等那個是你們而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係\n那最後我也請你們再研議一個東西就是違反規定可不可以一事不在理的用兩岸人民條例還有公務員懲戒法兩個都下去處罰你們注意一下這個點那我知道你一定會跟我說因為兩個法規的性質不合所以重疊這樣去處罰與法沒有違反但是我也跟你講大法官的見解已經不是這樣大官見解認為說\n你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰有可能違反醫師不在理因為如果說這個同意行為他沒有侵害到多重法益這個時候其實他不應該受到多重的處罰如果你們不清楚你可以來問我們我這邊或我們辦公室那邊跟你講不然你刑罰也下去懲處也下去這等於是違反醫師不在理的雙重處罰這部分麻煩你們能夠\n演繹一下順便給我 不懂的你們可以問我好 謝謝吳宗憲委員這個口才越來越好但是時間就控制得比較差一點好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.203 --> 00:03.767\n好我們麻煩人事長這邊先謝謝陳佩玉委員來請人事長\n\n00:09.439 --> 00:27.923\n委員長早安我直接就開門見山的請教你是不是認同就是軍公教這些公務員是國家穩定的力量是不是我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家穩定那這些國家棟樑他會是國家的國安風險嗎潛在的國安風險嗎你會認為是這樣嗎\n\n00:35.684 --> 00:55.116\n在一個組織的範疇裡面一定會有少數是屬於風險人物所以為什麼我們在很多的機關會設政控單位來協助identify那些高風險分子好謝謝我現在有一個問題一直以來的問題而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題他們說\n\n00:58.464 --> 01:19.937\n公務員是國家的棟樑但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可回國後也限七天內要報備這對不對這沒錯吧所以他們有一些在抱怨說他們的爸爸媽媽在大陸工作他們為了過去看他們那一樣他就覺得好像是在被拷問一樣\n\n01:22.398 --> 01:50.416\n他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全國家任何機密資料的人但是呢他就說卻得受到很多限制那感覺好像被盯哨那我想問一下一個問題這應該很簡單解釋長期就這麼樣了就是一個不涉及機密資料的基層鑑任級的公務員他去歐洲旅遊但是呢他需要在中國大陸轉機那這時候是不是要先提出申請許可\n\n01:52.292 --> 02:13.427\n目前是需要這106年開始就要所以這個很奇怪就是說今天連轉機不管是入境轉機或者是機場轉機都要申請許可所以我先強調我絕對100%支持國家安全而且我痛恨出賣我們台灣出賣國家的人\n\n02:14.227 --> 02:28.703\n所以我支持反滲透我不像有些官員國外有家家人都住在國外如果台灣出狀況我沒有地方跑我家老小都在台灣所以台灣是我的家\n\n02:29.804 --> 02:46.242\n所以任何洩露國防機密的任何侵害我國國家安全的我們都不可以手軟但是我們的手段也要合理正當我們不能讓政府用反滲透的這個民意然後進行前置自由的這個現實\n\n02:48.484 --> 03:06.780\n所以剛剛人長你也認同就是說我們公務員是國家穩定的力量可是你要正視一個問題就是國家是不是過度的汙名化或是刁難或是用一些恐懼的方式去對付這些公務員請人長你要特別注意這個點\n\n03:08.035 --> 03:22.880\n因為法律雖然是陸委會等等其他機關他們所訂的但是制度是你們所處理的對不對一些表格啦一些申報單什麼都是你們在做的嘛所以你們不能說這個是跟你們無關好不好你們注意一下\n\n03:24.140 --> 03:44.838\n為什麼會這麼說我待會還會再提到這段時間離職率暴增的問題因為我們講人會用腳投票其實離職率暴增的40幾%其實是對於首長你的不認同所以你一定要特別注意這個點我知道你已經很努力在為公務員但是這會不會是因為政府大環境的問題那我再提一個\n\n03:46.072 --> 04:12.272\n我認為最近一直有一個問題就是你們一直很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸那邊有沒有戶籍等等的但是你們卻放縱高層的行政部中立我舉個例子我先請教一下我直接講兩岸條例第九條公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可這個是法律規定的所以你們也不得不做對不對按照規定就是一定要做\n\n04:13.752 --> 04:42.655\n但是呢我再提第二個這個東西是你們必須依法行政我認同因為我國兩案條例第九條有做這樣的規定所以你們必須這麼處理我覺得這是沒問題但是啊公務員服務法第一條它也有要求要依法行政啊那你們有沒有看到現在很多高官都不依法行政我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題譬如說好我直接講譬如說卓鴻泰院長他不依法編列軍警銷的待遇跟退休金預算\n\n04:43.769 --> 05:09.824\n那這種人不應該嚴辦嗎所以我今天看到的就是你對出盡戶籍你釘得半死對基層公務員下手很重但是對於高層的直接違法你們都當作沒有看到那甚至像之前那個花蓮災情的時候有一個81人群組因為這是公開的訊息我就直接講他裡面有出現殺傷力訊息跟行政院秘書長張純然說跟四方處理中\n\n05:11.306 --> 05:29.082\n這種完全違反行政中立的事情請問一下你們有真的有去正視這個問題嗎他們沒有把我加入群組所以我比較不清楚我知道但是不是你不能這樣講啊那公務員違法犯罪也沒有把我加入群組我就不處理他嗎你不能講這句話啦\n\n05:29.562 --> 05:45.826\n不過我跟委員報告一件事就是說行政院對金人待遇條例還有警察人員的人事條例這兩個規定坦白講以行政院立場他已經提出跟憲法法庭去做釋憲的動作在這個釋憲結果還沒有出來胡說八道\n\n05:50.527 --> 06:12.282\n哪一個法律有這樣規定的你告訴我你現在告訴我哪一個法律有規定這樣申請釋憲就可以不動作你去看憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法這樣規定嗎你們這胡說八道我跟你講你今天在我面前我真的很尊敬你的人你今天在我面前你竟然違法的告訴全國國人這個錯誤的法律概念\n\n06:13.527 --> 06:39.458\n你不可以這樣做我一直很尊重你欸我覺得你至少是個講道理的人欸憲法訴訟法不是這樣規範的你不能這樣子講你在這邊講的每一句話都是在誤導國人欸你想你現在是是左榮泰的鸚鵡嗎你可以這樣嗎憲法訴訟法52條你提起憲法訴訟你是不停止法律的適用欸不是說停止就停止欸左榮泰直接違法違憲欸\n\n06:41.887 --> 06:53.340\n算了這不是你的事那我不要講請你不要附送行政院院長違法的論述我很討厭行政官員你是高官高官來這裡還說出違法的話就不對了\n\n06:54.485 --> 07:12.311\n如果你今天不想碰这件事我觉得是没有关系但你不能直接在那边告诉国人违法的事情申请释宪不会停止法律的适用所以我一直跟人家讲那我认为税捐基金法违宪我申请释宪那是我从今天开始不用缴税可以这样吗宪法诉讼法52条就说不行嘛\n\n07:13.431 --> 07:39.026\n所以你既然在那邊這樣子我覺得不應該啦好那81人群組那個我想喔你沒有回答你說你不在裡面好那就算了但是我在這邊跟您報告那個完全違反行政的中立因為那個時間點也不應該救災的黃金旗他們也是政務官也是領國家薪水而且殺傷力訊息這個在一般行政文書上面不會用所以等於你們救高官的部分違法你們都不管啊對不對\n\n07:40.907 --> 07:51.216\n然後呢基層員工基層的人去大陸你們就要管欸那個主席報告主席先暫停一下我有一個會議詢問我想請教一下先暫停一下\n\n07:52.950 --> 08:14.137\n我要暫停你都問你會怎樣我要會議詢問你要問哪一個時間我會給你不用詢問繼續我想請教因為我們現在公務員出國是今天的議題公務員出國要申報許可那我想請教一下那個那目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可這個你就直接主席不是你那個質詢的對象\n\n08:15.077 --> 08:34.526\n不是不是我說我會議詢問嘛會議詢問你可以不回答人事長在這個地方你就質詢就好主席你是老立委我們應該對於沒有那麼老啦跟你一樣你是執政的立委我們對議事規則都很清楚其實我們委員是可以對主席提出會議詢問的沒關係主席不方便回答學務5G好謝謝主席\n\n08:39.128 --> 08:59.822\n我這邊講很簡單啦就我剛問主席主席不方便回答就是民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨先生事先許可我不知道那主席也不方便講那但是呢我們的公務員我回答你一下因為你一直要我回答我告訴你喔六都的民進黨台北市議院連申請都不用申請因為連讓你去都不讓你去不是啦\n\n09:00.462 --> 09:13.162\n立法委員主席你不能歪掉我說黨員我不是說公職啦謝謝公職一定有民進黨的黨員就不是在這個地方被你質詢的對象嗎好不好你要想問我私底下來告訴你好沒關係那就這樣\n\n09:15.686 --> 09:43.123\n好啦我的問題很簡單啦我想大家都聽得懂我的問題就只是黨員那所以我對於公務員連不涉及機密的公務員赴大陸要這樣做我是覺得很奇怪啦其實這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任因為整個國家就在配合的政府在那邊做一些奇怪的事情第二個任何法律的規定其實你要考量到它的比例原則也就是目的手段這是憲法規定的\n\n09:43.883 --> 10:11.061\n那你今天他去那裡落地或去那裡他會泄密嗎如果要泄密我通訊軟體也可以泄密啊我約第三國也可以泄密啊這個時代跟二次大戰前不一樣秘密的交付他有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞的方式所以你禁止他去你能做到的只是我們讓國人更少去大陸不要了解那些狀況讓兩岸更不了解對方你做到了\n\n10:11.980 --> 10:28.947\n目的只有這個所以這個到底意義在哪裡我認為不符合比例原則因為時間到了那剛主席也沒有讓我時間暫停我想我就提了一下就是因為您上任到現在這最後您上任到現在\n\n10:30.253 --> 10:58.030\n離職率暴增了41%其實這是對於身為人事總署最高主管你的一個最大的否定所以請你要注意一下因為我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾媽淨基層沒有尊嚴感所以新人不想考進來當公務員年輕人流失光光請問一下這個制度是我們以前的觀念裡面要把一流人才帶進政府嗎所以我想\n\n10:59.392 --> 11:19.513\n兩個月內我想麻煩你們給我一份報告在這裡就是對於賦入報備必須風險分級還有精確治理這部分麻煩你們給我報告我剛剛講了法制雖然是陸委會他們但是你們管理跟表格等等那個是你們而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係\n\n11:20.894 --> 11:44.916\n那最後我也請你們再研議一個東西就是違反規定可不可以一事不在理的用兩岸人民條例還有公務員懲戒法兩個都下去處罰你們注意一下這個點那我知道你一定會跟我說因為兩個法規的性質不合所以重疊這樣去處罰與法沒有違反但是我也跟你講大法官的見解已經不是這樣大官見解認為說\n\n11:46.317 --> 12:13.409\n你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰有可能違反醫師不在理因為如果說這個同意行為他沒有侵害到多重法益這個時候其實他不應該受到多重的處罰如果你們不清楚你可以來問我們我這邊或我們辦公室那邊跟你講不然你刑罰也下去懲處也下去這等於是違反醫師不在理的雙重處罰這部分麻煩你們能夠\n\n12:14.309 --> 12:23.680\n演繹一下順便給我不懂的你們可以問我好謝謝吳宗憲委員這個口才越來越好但是時間就控制得比較差一點好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.203,"end":3.767,"text":"好 我們麻煩人事長這邊先謝謝陳佩玉委員來 請人事長"},{"start":9.439,"end":27.923,"text":"委員長早安我直接就開門見山的請教你是不是認同就是軍公教這些公務員是國家穩定的力量是不是我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家穩定那這些國家棟樑他會是國家的國安風險嗎潛在的國安風險嗎你會認為是這樣嗎"},{"start":35.684,"end":55.116,"text":"在一個組織的範疇裡面一定會有少數是屬於風險人物所以為什麼我們在很多的機關會設政控單位來協助identify那些高風險分子好 謝謝我現在有一個問題一直以來的問題而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題他們說"},{"start":58.464,"end":79.937,"text":"公務員是國家的棟樑但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可回國後也限七天內要報備這對不對 這沒錯吧所以他們有一些在抱怨說他們的爸爸媽媽在大陸工作他們為了過去看他們那一樣他就覺得好像是在被拷問一樣"},{"start":82.398,"end":110.416,"text":"他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全國家任何機密資料的人但是呢他就說卻得受到很多限制那感覺好像被盯哨那我想問一下一個問題這應該很簡單解釋長期就這麼樣了就是一個不涉及機密資料的基層鑑任級的公務員他去歐洲旅遊但是呢他需要在中國大陸轉機那這時候是不是要先提出申請許可"},{"start":112.292,"end":133.427,"text":"目前是需要這106年開始就要所以這個很奇怪就是說今天連轉機不管是入境轉機或者是機場轉機都要申請許可所以我先強調我絕對100%支持國家安全而且我痛恨出賣我們台灣出賣國家的人"},{"start":134.227,"end":148.703,"text":"所以我支持反滲透我不像有些官員國外有家家人都住在國外如果台灣出狀況我沒有地方跑我家老小都在台灣所以台灣是我的家"},{"start":149.804,"end":166.242,"text":"所以任何洩露國防機密的任何侵害我國國家安全的我們都不可以手軟但是我們的手段也要合理正當我們不能讓政府用反滲透的這個民意然後進行前置自由的這個現實"},{"start":168.484,"end":186.78,"text":"所以剛剛人長你也認同就是說我們公務員是國家穩定的力量可是你要正視一個問題就是國家是不是過度的汙名化或是刁難或是用一些恐懼的方式去對付這些公務員請人長你要特別注意這個點"},{"start":188.035,"end":202.88,"text":"因為法律雖然是陸委會等等其他機關他們所訂的但是制度是你們所處理的對不對一些表格啦一些申報單什麼都是你們在做的嘛所以你們不能說這個是跟你們無關好不好你們注意一下"},{"start":204.14,"end":224.838,"text":"為什麼會這麼說我待會還會再提到這段時間離職率暴增的問題因為我們講人會用腳投票其實離職率暴增的40幾%其實是對於首長你的不認同所以你一定要特別注意這個點我知道你已經很努力在為公務員但是這會不會是因為政府大環境的問題那我再提一個"},{"start":226.072,"end":252.272,"text":"我認為最近一直有一個問題就是你們一直很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸那邊有沒有戶籍等等的但是你們卻放縱高層的行政部中立我舉個例子 我先請教一下我直接講 兩岸條例第九條公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可這個是法律規定的 所以你們也不得不做對不對按照規定就是一定要做"},{"start":253.752,"end":282.655,"text":"但是呢 我再提第二個這個東西是你們必須依法行政我認同 因為我國兩案條例第九條有做這樣的規定所以你們必須這麼處理我覺得這是沒問題但是啊公務員服務法第一條它也有要求要依法行政啊那你們有沒有看到現在很多高官都不依法行政我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題譬如說 好 我直接講譬如說卓鴻泰院長他不依法編列軍警銷的待遇跟退休金預算"},{"start":283.769,"end":309.824,"text":"那這種人不應該嚴辦嗎所以我今天看到的就是你對出盡戶籍你釘得半死對基層公務員下手很重但是對於高層的直接違法你們都當作沒有看到那甚至像之前那個花蓮災情的時候有一個81人群組因為這是公開的訊息我就直接講他裡面有出現殺傷力訊息跟行政院秘書長張純然說跟四方處理中"},{"start":311.306,"end":329.082,"text":"這種完全違反行政中立的事情請問一下你們有真的有去正視這個問題嗎他們沒有把我加入群組所以我比較不清楚我知道 但是不是 你不能這樣講啊那公務員違法犯罪也沒有把我加入群組我就不處理他嗎你不能講這句話啦"},{"start":329.562,"end":345.826,"text":"不過我跟委員報告一件事就是說行政院對金人待遇條例還有警察人員的人事條例這兩個規定坦白講以行政院立場他已經提出跟憲法法庭去做釋憲的動作在這個釋憲結果還沒有出來胡說八道"},{"start":350.527,"end":372.282,"text":"哪一個法律有這樣規定的你告訴我你現在告訴我哪一個法律有規定這樣申請釋憲就可以不動作你去看憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法這樣規定嗎你們這胡說八道我跟你講你今天在我面前我真的很尊敬你的人你今天在我面前你竟然違法的告訴全國國人這個錯誤的法律概念"},{"start":373.527,"end":399.458,"text":"你不可以這樣做 我一直很尊重你欸我覺得你至少是個講道理的人欸憲法訴訟法 不是這樣規範的你不能這樣子講你在這邊講的每一句話都是在誤導國人欸你想 你現在是是左榮泰的鸚鵡嗎你可以這樣嗎憲法訴訟法52條你提起憲法訴訟你是不停止法律的適用欸不是說停止就停止欸左榮泰直接違法違憲欸"},{"start":401.887,"end":413.34,"text":"算了這不是你的事那我不要講請你不要附送行政院院長違法的論述我很討厭行政官員你是高官高官來這裡還說出違法的話就不對了"},{"start":414.485,"end":432.311,"text":"如果你今天不想碰这件事我觉得是没有关系但你不能直接在那边告诉国人违法的事情申请释宪不会停止法律的适用所以我一直跟人家讲那我认为税捐基金法违宪我申请释宪那是我从今天开始不用缴税可以这样吗宪法诉讼法52条就说不行嘛"},{"start":433.431,"end":459.026,"text":"所以你既然在那邊這樣子 我覺得不應該啦好 那81人群組那個 我想喔你沒有回答 你說你不在裡面 好 那就算了但是我在這邊跟您報告那個完全違反行政的中立因為那個時間點也不應該 救災的黃金旗他們也是政務官 也是領國家薪水而且殺傷力訊息 這個在一般行政文書上面不會用所以等於你們救高官的部分違法你們都不管啊 對不對"},{"start":460.907,"end":471.216,"text":"然後呢 基層員工基層的人去大陸你們就要管欸 那個主席 報告主席先暫停一下 我有一個會議詢問我想請教一下先暫停一下"},{"start":472.95,"end":494.137,"text":"我要暫停 你都問你會怎樣我要會議詢問你要問哪一個時間我會給你 不用詢問 繼續我想請教因為我們現在公務員出國是今天的議題公務員出國要申報許可那我想請教一下那個那目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可這個你就直接主席不是你那個質詢的對象"},{"start":495.077,"end":514.526,"text":"不是不是 我說我會議詢問嘛會議詢問 你可以不回答人事長在這個地方 你就質詢就好主席 你是老立委 我們應該對於沒有那麼老啦 跟你一樣你是執政的立委我們對議事規則都很清楚其實我們委員是可以對主席提出會議詢問的沒關係 主席不方便回答學務5G 好 謝謝主席"},{"start":519.128,"end":539.822,"text":"我這邊講很簡單啦 就我剛問主席 主席不方便回答就是民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨先生事先許可我不知道 那主席也不方便講那但是呢 我們的公務員我回答你一下 因為你一直要我回答 我告訴你喔六都的民進黨台北市議院 連申請都不用申請因為連讓你去都不讓你去 不是啦"},{"start":540.462,"end":553.162,"text":"立法委員主席你不能歪掉我說黨員我不是說公職啦謝謝公職一定有民進黨的黨員就不是在這個地方被你質詢的對象嗎好不好你要想問我私底下來告訴你好沒關係那就這樣"},{"start":555.686,"end":583.123,"text":"好啦 我的問題很簡單啦我想大家都聽得懂我的問題就只是黨員那所以我對於公務員連不涉及機密的公務員赴大陸要這樣做我是覺得很奇怪啦其實這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任因為整個國家就在配合的政府在那邊做一些奇怪的事情第二個 任何法律的規定其實你要考量到它的比例原則也就是目的手段這是憲法規定的"},{"start":583.883,"end":611.061,"text":"那你今天他去那裡落地或去那裡他會泄密嗎如果要泄密我通訊軟體也可以泄密啊我約第三國也可以泄密啊這個時代跟二次大戰前不一樣秘密的交付他有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞的方式所以你禁止他去你能做到的只是我們讓國人更少去大陸不要了解那些狀況讓兩岸更不了解對方你做到了"},{"start":611.98,"end":628.947,"text":"目的只有這個所以這個到底意義在哪裡我認為不符合比例原則因為時間到了那剛主席也沒有讓我時間暫停我想 我就提了一下就是因為您上任到現在這最後 您上任到現在"},{"start":630.253,"end":658.03,"text":"離職率暴增了41%其實這是對於身為人事總署最高主管你的一個最大的否定所以請你要注意一下因為我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾媽淨基層沒有尊嚴感所以新人不想考進來當公務員年輕人流失光光請問一下這個制度是我們以前的觀念裡面要把一流人才帶進政府嗎所以我想"},{"start":659.392,"end":679.513,"text":"兩個月內我想麻煩你們給我一份報告在這裡就是對於賦入報備必須風險分級還有精確治理這部分麻煩你們給我報告我剛剛講了法制雖然是陸委會他們但是你們管理跟表格等等那個是你們而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係"},{"start":680.894,"end":704.916,"text":"那最後我也請你們再研議一個東西就是違反規定可不可以一事不在理的用兩岸人民條例還有公務員懲戒法兩個都下去處罰你們注意一下這個點那我知道你一定會跟我說因為兩個法規的性質不合所以重疊這樣去處罰與法沒有違反但是我也跟你講大法官的見解已經不是這樣大官見解認為說"},{"start":706.317,"end":733.409,"text":"你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰有可能違反醫師不在理因為如果說這個同意行為他沒有侵害到多重法益這個時候其實他不應該受到多重的處罰如果你們不清楚你可以來問我們我這邊或我們辦公室那邊跟你講不然你刑罰也下去懲處也下去這等於是違反醫師不在理的雙重處罰這部分麻煩你們能夠"},{"start":734.309,"end":743.68,"text":"演繹一下順便給我 不懂的你們可以問我好 謝謝吳宗憲委員這個口才越來越好但是時間就控制得比較差一點好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":117,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時8分）麻煩人事長。先謝謝陳培瑜委員跟我更換發言排序。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：早安。我直接就開門見山的請教，你是不是認同軍公教的這些公務員是國家穩定的力量？是不是？簡要回答就可以。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家……"],["吳委員宗憲：這些國家棟梁會是國家的國安風險嗎？潛在的國安風險嗎？你會認為是這樣嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：在一個組織的範疇裡，一定會有少數是屬於風險人物，所以為什麼我們在很多機關會設政風單位來協助identify那一些高風險人員。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。現在我有一個一直以來的問題，而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題，他們說公務員是國家的棟梁，但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格啦！他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可，回國後也限7天內要報備，這對不對？沒錯吧！所以他們有一些在抱怨說，他們的爸爸、媽媽在大陸工作，為了過去看他們，他就覺得好像在被拷問一樣，所以他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全或是國家任何機密資料的人，但是卻受到很多限制，感覺好像被盯梢。我想請教一個問題，這應該可以很簡單解釋，長期以來就這麼樣了，一個不涉及機密資料的基層薦任級公務員去歐洲旅遊，但需要在中國大陸轉機，這時候是不是要先提出申請許可？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前是需要。"],["吳委員宗憲：從106年開始要申請。很奇怪的是，不管是入境轉機或機場轉機都要申請許可。我先強調，我絕對百分之百支持國家安全，而且我痛恨出賣臺灣、出賣國家的人，所以我支持反滲透。我不像有些官員，國外有家，家人都住在國外，所以如果臺灣出狀況，我沒有地方跑，我一家老小都在臺灣，臺灣是我的家！因此，任何洩漏國防機密、任何侵害我國家安全的，我們都不可以手軟，但手段要合理正當，我們不能讓政府用反滲透的名義進行箝制自由的事實！剛剛人事長也認同，公務員是國家穩定的力量，可是你要正視一個問題：國家是不是過度污名化，甚或刁難或用一些恐懼的方式去對付公務員？人事長，請你要特別注意這個點。法律雖然是陸委會等其他機關所訂的，但制度是你們在處理的，對不對？一些表格、申報單都是你們在做的，所以你們不能說跟你們無關，好不好？你們注意一下。為什麼會這麼說？我待會兒還會再提到。有關這段時間離職率暴增的問題，我們講人會用腳投票，所以離職率暴增百分之四十幾，其實是對首長的不認同，你一定要特別注意這個點。","我知道你很努力在為公務員爭取，但這會不會是因為政府大環境問題所致？我再提一個。最近一直有一個問題，也就是你們很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸，在那邊有沒有戶籍等等，卻放縱高層的行政不中立！我舉個例子，我先請教一下……不用，我直接講了。兩岸條例第九條規定，公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可，這是法律規定的，所以你們也不得不做，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：按照規定就是一定要做。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再提第二個，我認同你們必須依法行政，因為我國兩岸條例第九條有這樣的規定，所以你們必須這麼處理，我覺得沒問題。但公務員服務法第一條也要求要依法行政，請問你們有沒有看到現在有很多高官都不依法行政？我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題？我直接講，譬如卓榮泰院長不依法編列軍警消待遇跟退休金預算，這種人不應該嚴辦嗎？但我今天看到是，你對出境、戶籍盯得半死，對基層公務員下手很重；不過對於高層的直接違法，你們都當作沒有看到！甚至之前花蓮傳出災情時，你們有一個81人的群組，因為這已是公開的訊息，我就直接講。裡面跟行政院秘書長張惇涵說釋出「具殺傷力消息」，然後還有「跟世芳處理中」。這種完全違反行政中立的事情，請問你們有去正視這問題嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們沒有把我加入群組，所以我比較不清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道，但你不能這樣講！否則公務員違法犯罪，也沒有把我加入群組，我就不處理他嗎？你不能講這句話！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告一件事，行政院對軍人待遇條例及警察人員人事條例兩個規定，坦白講，以行政院立場來說，已經向憲法法庭聲請釋憲，在釋憲結果還沒有出來前，我們……"],["吳委員宗憲：胡說八道！哪一個法律有這樣規定的？你告訴我，你現在告訴我，哪一個法律有規定聲請釋憲就可以不動作？你去看憲法訴訟法，憲法訴訟法有這樣規定嗎？你們在胡說八道！我跟你講，你今天在我面前……我真的很尊敬你的人，但你今天竟然在我面前違法告訴全國國人這種錯誤的法律概念，你不可以這樣做！我一直很尊重你，我覺得你至少是個講道理的人。憲法訴訟法不是這樣規範的，所以你不能這樣子講！你講的每一句話都是在誤導國人，你現在是卓榮泰的鸚鵡嗎？你可以這樣嗎？憲法訴訟法第五十二條規定，提起憲法訴訟並不會停止法律的適用，不是說停止就停止的，是卓榮泰直接違法、違憲！算了，既然這不是你的事，那我就不要講了，但請你不要複誦行政院長違法的論述！我很討厭行政官員……你是高官，高官來這裡還說出違法的話就不對了！如果你今天不想碰這件事，我覺得沒有關係，但你不能直接告訴國人違法的事情，聲請釋憲不會停止法律的適用，這是我一直跟大家講的。否則我認為稅捐稽徵法違憲，我聲請釋憲，是不是從今天開始我就不用繳稅，可以這樣嗎？憲法訴訟法第五十二條就說不行，而你竟然在那邊這樣說？我覺得不應該！","有關81人群組那件事你沒有回答，你說你不在裡面，那就算了，但我在這邊要跟您報告：那完全違反行政中立，那個時間點也不應該！那是救災的黃金期！他們也是政務官、也領國家薪水，而且所謂的殺傷力訊息在一般行政文書上不會用。等於你們對高官的違法都不管，對不對？然後基層的人去大陸你們就要管。報告主席，時間先暫停一下，我有個會議詢問。"],["主席：需要暫停嗎？你就問你的，沒關係。"],["吳委員宗憲：我要會議詢問。"],["主席：你要問哪一個？時間我會給你，不用詢問，繼續。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請教，公務員出國是今天的議題，公務員出國要申報許可，所以我想請教，目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可？"],["主席：主席不是你質詢的對象……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，所以我說要會議詢問，會議詢問，你可以不回答。"],["主席：人事長在這個地方，你就……"],["吳委員宗憲：報告主席，你是老立委，我們應該對於……"],["主席：沒有那麼老，跟你差不多。"],["吳委員宗憲：你是資深立委，我們對議事規則都很清楚，其實委員可以對主席提出會議詢問……"],["主席：沒關係，人事長在這裡……"],["吳委員宗憲：主席不方便回答……"],["主席：學富五車，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主席。其實我要講的很簡單，就是我剛剛問主席的，只是主席不方便回答。民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨申請事先許可？我不知道，主席也不方便講。但是……"],["主席：我回答你一下，因為你一直要我回答。我告訴你，六都的民進黨員，像臺北市議員連申請都不用申請，因為根本就不讓你去……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，我說黨員……"],["主席：立法委員……"],["吳委員宗憲：主席，你不能歪掉！我說黨員，不是公職，謝謝。公職一定有……"],["主席：民進黨黨員就不是在這地方被你質詢的對象，好不好？你要想問，我私底下告訴你。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，那就這樣。我的問題很簡單，我想大家都聽得懂，我的問題就只是針對黨員。對於公務員，連不涉及機密的公務員赴大陸都要這樣做，我覺得很奇怪！這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任，因為整個國家就配合著政府做一些奇怪的事情。第二個，任何法律規定都要考量比例原則，也就是目的手段，這是憲法規定的。今天他去那裡落地，他會洩密嗎？如果要洩密，通訊軟體也可以洩密，約第三國也可以洩密，這個時代已經跟二次大戰前不一樣了！秘密的交付有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞方式，所以你禁止他去，所能做到的只是讓國人更少去大陸，不了解那裡的狀況，讓兩岸更不了解對方。你能做到的目的只有這個，這樣的意義到底在哪裡？我認為不符合比例原則。因為時間到了，剛剛主席也沒有讓我的時間暫停，我就提一下。從您上任到現在，離職率暴增了百分之四十一，這是對身為人事總處最高主管的你最大否定，請你要注意一下。我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾抹淨，基層沒有尊嚴感，所以新人不想考進來當公務員，年輕人流失光光。請問一下，這還是我們以前的觀念裡，要把一流人才帶進政府的那個制度嗎？我想麻煩你們在兩個月內給我一份報告，即對於赴陸報備必須風險分級及精確治理，麻煩你們給我報告。我剛剛講了，法律雖然是陸委會定的，但管理表格等等的是你們，而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係。","最後，我請你們再研議一個東西，也就是違反規定可不可以一事不再理，用兩岸人民條例及公務員懲戒法處罰？你們注意一下這個點。我知道你們一定會說，因為兩個法規的性質不合，所以重疊處罰於法並無違反，但我也要跟你講，大法官的見解已經不是這樣了，大法官的見解認為，你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰，有可能違反一事不再理。因為如果同一行為沒有侵害到多重法益，這個時候就不應該受到多重處罰，如果你們不清楚，可以來問我這邊，或我們辦公室會跟你講。"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["吳委員宗憲：不然刑罰也下去、懲處也下去，這等於是違反一事不再理的雙重處罰，這部分麻煩你們能夠研議一下，順便給我報告，不懂的話可以問我。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝人事長，你們辛苦了。"],["主席：口才愈來愈好，但是時間就控制得比較差一點，好，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳培瑜委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}}