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0.588}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,773 --> 00:00:01,939\n謝謝主席麻煩請局長來局長請\n\n2\n00:00:09,332 --> 00:00:15,696\n好謝謝主席馬國文早局長早局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們\n\n3\n00:00:37,848 --> 00:00:47,177\n大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期\n\n4\n00:00:58,667 --> 00:01:03,569\n芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識那好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利那就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了那我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎\n\n5\n00:01:22,034 --> 00:01:36,442\n好謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼\n\n6\n00:01:37,142 --> 00:01:53,227\n那正如委員所提到的在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有一些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難\n\n7\n00:01:54,628 --> 00:02:08,841\n針對芬太尼還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分\n\n8\n00:02:09,281 --> 00:02:36,298\n那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題那不過這部分應該委員也有注意到那個Rubio那個國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇那這是他的官方宣示那而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話\n\n9\n00:02:37,299 --> 00:02:52,377\n那美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述那不過實際的元首互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況那這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣\n\n10\n00:02:53,218 --> 00:02:57,961\n雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後\n\n11\n00:03:21,913 --> 00:03:24,236\n大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上\n\n12\n00:03:38,692 --> 00:03:41,093\n可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變\n\n13\n00:03:58,078 --> 00:04:01,180\n會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應\n\n14\n00:04:25,091 --> 00:04:37,960\n所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛\n\n15\n00:04:55,052 --> 00:05:11,808\n大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊\n\n16\n00:05:18,348 --> 00:05:45,102\n就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們\n\n17\n00:05:45,862 --> 00:06:07,099\n了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個\n\n18\n00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:33,114\n比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的專注\n\n19\n00:06:33,134 --> 00:06:38,477\n我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標啦可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前是否釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好\n\n20\n00:06:49,243 --> 00:07:10,762\n我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為\n\n21\n00:07:13,084 --> 00:07:25,729\n好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請應該的後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長\n\n22\n00:07:30,231 --> 00:07:55,441\n自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是\n\n23\n00:07:56,241 --> 00:08:20,178\n就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備\n\n24\n00:08:22,499 --> 00:08:35,511\n聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機\n\n25\n00:08:42,182 --> 00:09:04,675\n最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是\n\n26\n00:09:05,996 --> 00:09:09,399\n自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生\n\n27\n00:09:26,216 --> 00:09:40,008\n這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的那委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式\n\n28\n00:09:40,669 --> 00:10:05,087\n或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案他有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要\n\n29\n00:10:07,708 --> 00:10:15,233\n針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發生尤其像國安單位或國防部每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢\n\n30\n00:10:32,765 --> 00:10:43,153\n所以在預算上面既然我們要別那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望\n\n31\n00:10:49,938 --> 00:11:02,316\n提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來因為我們是國家情報機關\n\n32\n00:11:05,461 --> 00:11:21,979\n主要是針對這個現象情資我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好我們再跟委員做書面報告謝謝馬文君委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n773\t1939\t謝謝主席 麻煩請局長來 局長請\n9332\t15696\t好 謝謝主席 馬國文早局長早 局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們\n37848\t47177\t大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期\n58667\t63569\t芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識那好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利那就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了那我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎\n82034\t96442\t好 謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓 施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼\n97142\t113227\t那正如委員所提到的在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有一些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難\n114628\t128841\t針對芬太尼 還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分\n129281\t156298\t那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題那不過這部分應該委員也有注意到那個Rubio那個國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇那這是他的官方宣示那而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話\n157299\t172377\t那美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述那不過實際的元首互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況那這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣\n173218\t177961\t雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後\n201913\t204236\t大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上\n218692\t221093\t可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變\n238078\t241180\t會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應\n265091\t277960\t所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛\n295052\t311808\t大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊\n318348\t345102\t就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備 整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們\n345862\t367099\t了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個\n368360\t393114\t比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的專注\n393134\t398477\t我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標啦可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前是否釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好\n409243\t430762\t我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為\n433084\t445729\t好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請應該的後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長\n450231\t475441\t自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是\n476241\t500178\t就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備\n502499\t515511\t聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機\n522182\t544675\t最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是\n545996\t549399\t自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生\n566216\t580008\t這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的那委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式\n580669\t605087\t或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案他有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要\n607708\t615233\t針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發生尤其像國安單位或國防部每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢\n632765\t643153\t所以在預算上面既然我們要別那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望\n649938\t662316\t提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來因為我們是國家情報機關\n665461\t681979\t主要是針對這個現象情資我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好 那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好 我們再跟委員做書面報告謝謝馬文君委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請局長來 局長請\n好 謝謝主席 馬國文早局長早 局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們\n大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期\n芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識那好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利那就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了那我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎\n好 謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓 施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼\n那正如委員所提到的在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有一些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難\n針對芬太尼 還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分\n那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題那不過這部分應該委員也有注意到那個Rubio那個國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇那這是他的官方宣示那而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話\n那美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述那不過實際的元首互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況那這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣\n雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後\n大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上\n可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變\n會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應\n所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛\n大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊\n就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備 整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們\n了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個\n比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的專注\n我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標啦可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前是否釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好\n我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為\n好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請應該的後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長\n自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是\n就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備\n聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機\n最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是\n自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生\n這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的那委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式\n或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案他有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要\n針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發生尤其像國安單位或國防部每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢\n所以在預算上面既然我們要別那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望\n提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來因為我們是國家情報機關\n主要是針對這個現象情資我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好 那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好 我們再跟委員做書面報告謝謝馬文君委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.773 --> 00:01.939\n謝謝主席麻煩請局長來局長請\n\n00:09.332 --> 00:15.696\n好謝謝主席馬國文早局長早局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們\n\n00:37.848 --> 00:47.177\n大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期\n\n00:58.667 --> 01:03.569\n芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識那好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利那就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了那我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎\n\n01:22.034 --> 01:36.442\n好謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼\n\n01:37.142 --> 01:53.227\n那正如委員所提到的在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有一些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難\n\n01:54.628 --> 02:08.841\n針對芬太尼還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分\n\n02:09.281 --> 02:36.298\n那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題那不過這部分應該委員也有注意到那個Rubio那個國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇那這是他的官方宣示那而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話\n\n02:37.299 --> 02:52.377\n那美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述那不過實際的元首互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況那這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣\n\n02:53.218 --> 02:57.961\n雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後\n\n03:21.913 --> 03:24.236\n大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上\n\n03:38.692 --> 03:41.093\n可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變\n\n03:58.078 --> 04:01.180\n會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應\n\n04:25.091 --> 04:37.960\n所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛\n\n04:55.052 --> 05:11.808\n大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊\n\n05:18.348 --> 05:45.102\n就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們\n\n05:45.862 --> 06:07.099\n了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個\n\n06:08.360 --> 06:33.114\n比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的專注\n\n06:33.134 --> 06:38.477\n我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標啦可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前是否釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好\n\n06:49.243 --> 07:10.762\n我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為\n\n07:13.084 --> 07:25.729\n好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請應該的後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長\n\n07:30.231 --> 07:55.441\n自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是\n\n07:56.241 --> 08:20.178\n就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備\n\n08:22.499 --> 08:35.511\n聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機\n\n08:42.182 --> 09:04.675\n最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是\n\n09:05.996 --> 09:09.399\n自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生\n\n09:26.216 --> 09:40.008\n這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的那委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式\n\n09:40.669 --> 10:05.087\n或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案他有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要\n\n10:07.708 --> 10:15.233\n針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發生尤其像國安單位或國防部每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢\n\n10:32.765 --> 10:43.153\n所以在預算上面既然我們要別那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望\n\n10:49.938 --> 11:02.316\n提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來因為我們是國家情報機關\n\n11:05.461 --> 11:21.979\n主要是針對這個現象情資我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好我們再跟委員做書面報告謝謝馬文君委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.773,"end":1.939,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請局長來 局長請"},{"start":9.332,"end":15.696,"text":"好 謝謝主席 馬國文早局長早 局長現在備受全球矚目的這個川習會要在韓國舉行大概就明天嘛那很快那這次川習會美方其實已經公佈就是會將日前美國財政部長跟中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的這個相關的協商他們"},{"start":37.848,"end":47.177,"text":"大概對他的初步的這些框架他包含稀土管制大豆採購TITO的股權加徵100%的關稅等等這個會作為討論的議題那陸方的商務部也有說在馬來西亞的談判他們就這些出口管制還有對等關稅暫停期"},{"start":58.667,"end":63.569,"text":"芬太尼禁毒合作還有301傳播收費這些議題也都達成初步的共識那好像在這個部分其實感覺上是進行的還算順利那就我們延期的狀況因為明天就要談了那我們國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎或者還有什麼變數嗎"},{"start":82.034,"end":96.442,"text":"好 謝委員提問因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題那大概看起來就是說在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態在施壓 施壓對方希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼"},{"start":97.142,"end":113.227,"text":"那正如委員所提到的在馬來西亞的第五回合的商業談判過程當中他們已經開始達到一些共識那我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係那希望在這個現階段能夠有一些成果所以他們的方式大概是先易後難"},{"start":114.628,"end":128.841,"text":"針對芬太尼 還有針對TikTok還有針對稀土的管制在這一次的川習會能夠有一些成果那看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會這個友好的氣氛那顯示雙方對這個川習會都非常非常的重視這大概第一部分"},{"start":129.281,"end":156.298,"text":"那第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及台灣的議題那看起來是會的因為川普總統對外說明是說會觸及到台灣的議題那不過這部分應該委員也有注意到那個Rubio那個國務卿也有提到美方不會以台灣議題來換取中共的貿易優惠的待遇那這是他的官方宣示那而且另外我們來判斷假如說台灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話"},{"start":157.299,"end":172.377,"text":"那美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業針對美國對台政策的立場應該會有一些表述那不過實際的元首互動會不會有什麼其他的狀況那這部分我們再來做密切的注意大概背景分析是這樣"},{"start":173.218,"end":177.961,"text":"雖然我們現在看起來如果說順著這樣子的一個脈絡就像剛剛局長所分析的可是我們看到今天或者近日其實不管是中國大陸他們自己的一些媒體釋出的訊息或者我們自己國內在很多的訊息的分析好像也不完全是這樣因為如果他們談崩了以後"},{"start":201.913,"end":204.236,"text":"大概會有其他的影響因為他們有特別這個都有特別提到就習近平他在很多方面其實越來越強勢而且陸方好像也越來越有自信所以就這些議題感覺上"},{"start":218.692,"end":221.093,"text":"可能還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利如果發生這樣的狀況因為剛剛雖然局長有提到說不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲台灣可是以川普總統他自己個人的特質或者他談判的方式其實他隨時都會做改變"},{"start":238.078,"end":241.18,"text":"會不會犧牲我們不曉得可是像這樣的過程其實像我們在看到川普總統過去一直在指責台灣竊取美國半導體產業近期也暫停對台4億美元的軍售案還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權對於像對台灣的這些武器的供應"},{"start":265.091,"end":277.96,"text":"所以他同時大概就這個部分大家可能看到的像他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好尤其台灣議題因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個而且他又說台灣是對大陸來說是蘋果是他真愛的東西那如果像這些議題在討論的過程當中沒有很順的話我們會受到什麼樣的影響我們就剛剛"},{"start":295.052,"end":311.808,"text":"大家看到的一個訊息局長已經有說明了那個可能大家都知道可是就如果說還有這樣的變數或者甚至台灣會被拿來當成籌碼或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中他有可能會被犧牲那我們會有怎麼樣的一個因應或者對我們國安團隊來說會有什麼樣的一個警訊"},{"start":318.348,"end":345.102,"text":"就委員提醒的這部分我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況我們還要再來注意那些相關的細節不過就美中峰會來講因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲型的重點所以以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備 整備的期間應該都有做非常縝密的一個推演包括各項議題怎麼因應的一個基本的立場以我們"},{"start":345.862,"end":367.099,"text":"了解政府的運作這部分應該都有做一些規劃那也才會有剛剛也跟委員報告的不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明那不過實際的狀況還是要再做進一步的來了解不過整體的峰會的氣氛我們所看到是如同剛剛的說明他們是鋪陳一個"},{"start":368.36,"end":393.114,"text":"比較正面的氣氛因為雙方的競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面這包括到國安以及科技管制的議題所以他們在這個階段大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面願意管理競爭關係而有一個比較友好的氣氛來避免雙方關係的持續升高為了達到這樣目的我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的專注"},{"start":393.134,"end":398.477,"text":"我想那個可能是就整體大家希望的目標啦可是我剛剛有提到了他們在明天要談之前是否釋出這樣的訊息顯然可能不一定如大家想像他可以談得很好"},{"start":409.243,"end":430.762,"text":"我們其實最在乎的就是台灣被放在什麼樣的一個天秤上面去做一個可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼這個部分我們先提醒就是我們國安單位可能因為明天就要談了很快大概也會有一個突破的結果就這個部分我們希望可以去重視因為"},{"start":433.084,"end":445.729,"text":"好像現在大陸的稀土其實有打中要害所以對這個部分我們覺得可能他還是會有變數這個部分再請應該的後續可以關注一下那另外就這個安控國家隊的隊長"},{"start":450.231,"end":475.441,"text":"自詡為安控國家隊就國內上市公司這個深瑞電子他營業項目從錄影系統門禁設備他一手全包可是可以發現到他小至線材外殼大到主機板都是來自中國大陸而且涉嫌把這些錄製的監視器零件等相關設備組裝以後貼上台灣製造其實就這個部分我不知道國安單位掌握了多少可是"},{"start":476.241,"end":500.178,"text":"就很多單位包括中華電信其實他們有很多的子公司其實也大概都跟這個有相關的接觸其實他們都很明白的指出像我們這一類的事情不管他除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門不管郵局也好銀行也好或者甚至教育單位都有被都有使用到這樣錄製的設備"},{"start":502.499,"end":515.511,"text":"聯教育部他們有這樣的設備他可以掌握所有的資訊包括你的論文發表包括你的所有師生所有的個資等等其實都有可是我們到最後只是減價驗收這個部分非常嚴重因為剛剛我們提到說這個深瑞公司這個監視器主機"},{"start":522.182,"end":544.675,"text":"最嚴重的部分他有回聯中國雲端服務的情形這是我們可以接受的嗎如果像這樣子的監視器而且是我們國防部在使用的有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器那這樣的情況怎麼辦因為現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了其實大家都心知肚明這只是"},{"start":545.996,"end":549.399,"text":"自欺欺人因為幾乎我們這些紅色供應鏈他時時都存在可是就我們比較關心的像這些機敏出所的或者像有一些個資的這個部分國安單位有什麼樣的一個想法或者我們應該要怎麼樣去做一個嚇阻或者防範類似的問題產生"},{"start":566.216,"end":580.008,"text":"這問題確實非常重要因為依照現在的規定來講政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的這些相關的資通訊產品或周邊的設備的所以是不容許的那委員有特別提到會不會有這種貼牌的方式"},{"start":580.669,"end":605.087,"text":"或是不只是設備而已有時候還有包括到政府的一些委外的資安的一些維運的這些方案他有時候還有涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或一些聯繫那這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安那我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題有做一些討論那也有在提醒速發部那邊應該針對這些問題要"},{"start":607.708,"end":615.233,"text":"針對這些比較新的這種狀況在法規上要做一個全面的檢視那這是我們前幾天才剛好有這樣的討論主席不好意思耽誤一點時間最後我要提醒的是因為我們不斷不斷的發生尤其像國安單位或國防部每年我們編這麼高額的費用如果其實使用這個錄製產品沒有問題的話其實我們應該不用花那麼多錢"},{"start":632.765,"end":643.153,"text":"所以在預算上面既然我們要別那麼多表示這個大家是覺得他是是有問題的那如果有問題我們都可以用減價驗收或者甚至輕輕帶過或者只是叫他再補正常的東西我覺得我們是玩假的這個部分國安局可以我們希望"},{"start":649.938,"end":662.316,"text":"提出具體有效的防範的一個方式而不是只有開會剛剛局長說大家有討論要怎麼樣有效的制止或防範這個部分有效的一個做法可以提供出來因為我們是國家情報機關"},{"start":665.461,"end":681.979,"text":"主要是針對這個現象情資我們有跟國安會做報告所以國安會為了要進行跨部會協調他有召會來進行處理那這個部分我們再持續的來做必要的反應好 那相關的處置作為再提供書面資料好 我們再跟委員做書面報告謝謝馬文君委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":154,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長早。局長，現在備受全球矚目的川習會要在韓國舉行，大概就是明天，很快，這次川習會，美方其實已經公布會將日前美國財政部長與中國大陸在馬來西亞中美第五輪貿易談判的相關協商……"],["蔡局長明彥：初步框架。"],["馬委員文君：這些初步框架包含稀土管制、大豆採購、TikTok股權、加徵100%關稅等，都會作為討論議題，陸方商務部也有提到在馬來西亞的談判中，他們就出口管制、對等關稅暫停期、芬太尼禁毒合作及301船舶收費這些議題也都達成初步共識，好像在這個部分感覺上是進行得還算順利，就我們研析的狀況，因為明天就要談了，國安局就這個部分有什麼樣的看法嗎？或者還有什麼變數嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提問，因為剛剛會前媒體也在關切這個問題，看起來在川習會前他們有個階段是一直在表態、在施壓對方，希望能夠得到談判比較好的籌碼，正如委員所提到的，在馬來西亞第五回合的商業談判過程當中，他們已經開始達到一些共識。我們的分析是大概美中現在是在管理他們的競爭關係，希望在現階段能夠有一些成果，所以他們的方式大概是先易後難，針對芬太尼、TikTok以及稀土管制，在這一次川習會能夠有一些成果，看起來是一直在鋪陳川習會友好的氣氛，顯示雙方對川習會都非常非常重視，這是第一部分。","第二部分是有關於委員提到會不會有一些涉及臺灣的議題，看起來是會的，因為川普總統對外說明是會觸及到臺灣的議題，不過這部分委員應該也有注意到，國務卿Rubio也有提到美方不會以臺灣議題來換取中共貿易優惠的待遇，這是他的官方宣示。另外我們來判斷，假如臺灣議題真的是列為川習會的議題的話，美方的幕僚應該會有一些相關的作業，針對美國對臺政策的立場應該會有一些表述，不過實際的元首互動會不會有其他的狀況，這個部分我們再來密切地注意，大概背景分析是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：如果順著這樣的脈絡，就像剛剛局長所分析的，可是我們看到今天或者近日，不管是中國大陸的一些媒體釋出的訊息，或者我們國內在很多的訊息分析，好像也不完全是這樣，如果他們談崩了以後，大概會有其他的影響，因為這個都有特別提到，習近平在很多方面其實越來越強勢，而且陸方好像也越來越有自信，所以就這些議題可能感覺上還沒有辦法像我們想像的那麼順利。","雖然剛剛局長有提到，不管是國務卿盧比歐或者他們的戰爭部長都說不會犧牲臺灣，可是以川普總統自己個人的特質，或者他談判的方式，其實他隨時都會改變，會不會犧牲我們？不曉得。可是像這樣的過程，我們看到川普總統過去一直在指責臺灣竊取美國半導體產業，近期也暫停對臺4億美元的軍售案，還有他也沒有動用每年10億美元總統撥款權，像對臺灣的武器供應，大概就這個部分大家可能看到的，他們如果在某些議題沒有辦法談得很好，尤其是臺灣議題，因為川普總統在出發之前特別釋出這個訊息，而且他又說臺灣對大陸來說是蘋果、是他珍愛的東西，像這些議題在討論過程當中沒有很順的話，我們會受到什麼影響？就剛剛大家看到的訊息，局長已經有說明了，那個可能大家都知道，可是如果還有這樣的變數，甚至臺灣會被拿來當成籌碼，或者甚至可能在談判的過程當中有可能會被犧牲，我們會有怎麼樣的因應？或者對我們國安團隊是什麼樣的警訊？"],["蔡局長明彥：就委員提醒的這部分，我剛才提到實際峰會互動的狀況，我們還要再來注意相關的細節，不過就美中峰會來講，因為這一次幾乎是川普亞洲行的重點，以我們對於這種元首高峰會在籌備、整備的期間，應該都有做非常縝密的推演，包括各項議題怎麼因應的基本立場，以我們了解政府的運作，這部分應該都有做一些規劃，也才會有剛剛跟委員報告的，不管是國務卿或是戰爭部長對外先做一些必要的政策說明，實際狀況還是要再做進一步的了解。不過整體峰會的氣氛，我們看到是如同剛剛的說明，他們是鋪陳一個比較正面的氣氛，因為雙方競爭關係有很多深水區還在後面，包括到國安以及科技管制的議題，所以他們在這個階段，大概就是先鋪陳出兩國領導人願意見面、願意管理競爭關係，而有一個比較友好的氣氛，來避免雙方關係的持續升高，為了達到這樣的目的，我們相信幕僚們應該都有非常縝密的作業。"],["馬委員文君：那個可能是整體大家希望的目標，可是我剛剛有提到了……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，對！謝謝提醒。"],["馬委員文君：他們在明天要談之前釋出這樣的訊息，顯然可能不一定如大家想像的可以談得很好，我們其實最在乎的是臺灣被放在什麼樣的天秤上面，可能在談判的過程當中成為籌碼，這個部分我們先提醒……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來注意。"],["馬委員文君：對！我們國安單位可能……因為明天就要談了，大概很快也會有一個初步結果，就這個部分，我們希望可以去重視，現在大陸的稀土好像有打中要害，我們覺得這個部分可能還是會有變數，再請你們後續可以關注一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來注意，應該的、應該的。"],["馬委員文君：另外，就安控國家隊的隊長自詡為安控國家隊，就是國內上市公司昇銳電子的營業項目從錄影系統、門禁設備，一手全包，可以發現到小至線材、外殼，大到主機板都是來自中國大陸，而且涉嫌把這些陸製的監視器、零件等相關設備組裝以後，貼上臺灣製造。就這個部分，我不知道國安單位掌握了多少，可是有很多單位，包括中華電信他們有很多的子公司，大概都跟這個有相關的接觸，他們都很明白地指出，像這一類的事情，除了在國防部或者相關的政府部門，不管郵局也好、銀行也好，甚至是教育單位都有使用到陸製設備，連教育部都有這樣的設備，他可以掌握所有的資訊，包括你的論文發表、所有師生、所有的個資等等其實都有，但到最後我們只是減價驗收，這個部分非常嚴重。"],["蔡局長明彥：是！"],["馬委員文君：剛剛我們提到昇銳公司監視器主機最嚴重的部分是有回連中國雲端服務的情形，這是我們可以接受的嗎？像這樣的監視器，而且是國防部在使用的，有很多機敏的處所都是用這樣的監視器，如果是這樣的情況怎麼辦？現在顯然不像我們說在招標的時候不要用就好了，大家都心知肚明，這只是自欺欺人，因為這些紅色供應鏈幾乎時時都存在，可是就我們比較關心的，像這些機敏處所或者像有一些個資的部分，國安單位有什麼樣的想法，或者我們應該要如何去嚇阻或防範類似的問題產生？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個問題確實非常重要，依照現在的規定，政府單位是不可以使用對岸所產製的相關資通訊產品或周邊設備，這是不容許的。委員有特別提到會不會有貼牌的方式，或不只是設備而已，還包括到一些政府委外的、資安的、維運的方案，有時候還涉及到這些公司是不是在對岸有一些投資或聯繫，這個部分都有涉及到委員所關切的資安。我們前兩天剛好也有針對這個問題進行一些討論，也有提醒數發部應該針對這些比較新的狀況在法規上要做全面檢視，這是我們前幾天剛好有這樣的討論。"],["馬委員文君：主席，不好意思，耽誤一點時間。最後我要提醒，因為我們不斷、不斷地發生，尤其像國安單位或國防部每年編這麼高額的費用，如果使用陸製產品沒有問題的話，我們應該不用花那麼多錢，所以在預算上面，既然我們要編那麼多，表示大家覺得它是有問題的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是、是。"],["馬委員文君：如果有問題，我們都可以用減價驗收，甚至輕輕帶過，或者只是叫他再補正常的東西，我覺得我們是玩假的，對這個部分，我們希望國安局可以提出具體有效的防範方式，而不是只有開會，剛剛局長說大家有討論，請將怎麼樣制止或防範的有效作法提供出來。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，一句話跟委員報告，因為我們是國家情報機關……"],["主席：請摘要。"],["蔡局長明彥：主要是針對這個現象、情資，我們有跟國安會報告，國安會為了要進行跨部會協調，他們有召會來進行處理，這個部分我們再持續地做必要的反映，讓相關單位一起來處理。"],["馬委員文君：好，相關的處置作為再提供書面資料，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們再跟委員提書面報告。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員。國安局，我們其實已經有修訂法律，如果沒有經允許，在國防採購用中國的零組件是三年以下有期徒刑，而不是減量發包的問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為我沒有接觸……"],["主席：對、對！好，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答的是徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}}