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1094.517, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1094.517, \"end\": 1094.537, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,969 --> 00:00:30,271\n謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝各位官員的出席我想請環境部部長來請部長陳委員好部長好之前我們風災之後處理這些光電板的回收片片有序號是環境部還有經濟部做過的圖卡而且人民也全民都掛在嘴上片片有序號片片有身分證片片都找不回來\n\n2\n00:00:31,151 --> 00:00:48,631\n這個你應該記得風災之後呢證明點以前的官員他就在他自己的社群發言說廢棄的光碟板真的太多了如果沒有簡易迅速有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉\n\n3\n00:00:49,492 --> 00:01:06,799\n這個你應該也記得你馬上用您的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能言署\n\n4\n00:01:08,159 --> 00:01:28,167\n發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個\n\n5\n00:01:32,228 --> 00:01:59,514\n因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下已改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來\n\n6\n00:02:00,174 --> 00:02:14,874\n包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶\n\n7\n00:02:15,635 --> 00:02:33,124\n你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採中央但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要來看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點\n\n8\n00:02:33,697 --> 00:02:53,895\n好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大\n\n9\n00:02:55,356 --> 00:03:19,108\n12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了\n\n10\n00:03:19,768 --> 00:03:38,840\n那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等\n\n11\n00:03:39,500 --> 00:04:01,201\n全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您\n\n12\n00:04:02,282 --> 00:04:23,704\n這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎\n\n13\n00:04:25,398 --> 00:04:51,539\n因為我沒有在看電視公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息我現在告訴您您覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時我們有一個指引如果說要來進行掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的\n\n14\n00:04:52,119 --> 00:05:15,330\n我懂等一下我會跟你討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能齁我跟你分析了一下其實大部分廚餘每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學啊你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能\n\n15\n00:05:15,990 --> 00:05:37,877\n只有不是你剛講的1620噸因為你剛一再的強調說我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1620噸然後你們就拿2115噸減到1620噸得出一個很漂亮的結論說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸你們樂觀的講說妥善處理絕對沒有問題下一張我要跟你細細的討論是這中間的\n\n16\n00:05:48,639 --> 00:06:12,507\n這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠高效堆肥設備再生能源廠黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的\n\n17\n00:06:14,290 --> 00:06:40,558\n你是說1620不對嗎對平常他沒有做到1620啊平常他沒有做到1620啊這是設施的量能設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點嘛的確是但的確他很久沒有做了嘛沒有什麼沒有很久沒有做他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都豬瘟每天都發生嘛所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能\n\n18\n00:06:41,206 --> 00:06:58,476\n好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的手廚魚就是因為手廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的\n\n19\n00:06:59,056 --> 00:07:11,953\n都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的\n\n20\n00:07:13,188 --> 00:07:28,623\n我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯\n\n21\n00:07:30,126 --> 00:07:57,430\n這個才是重點啊包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵主來做處理那這個目前的量當然比較少啊這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式\n\n22\n00:07:57,870 --> 00:08:10,127\n你承認吧有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式\n\n23\n00:08:11,141 --> 00:08:36,672\n不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的減合他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊\n\n24\n00:08:37,697 --> 00:08:59,958\n跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後\n\n25\n00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:30,069\n經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深廚宇加熟廚宇所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟廚宇全部可以嗎它比例是偏低了吧這裡面已經有在處理深廚宇了那我們慢慢再把熟廚宇加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是\n\n26\n00:09:30,549 --> 00:09:38,806\n我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎\n\n27\n00:09:43,854 --> 00:10:05,948\n如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情呢1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我們說的很清楚喔大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎\n\n28\n00:10:06,468 --> 00:10:31,141\n我跟委員說明一下委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對\n\n29\n00:10:32,282 --> 00:10:57,781\n廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座這個需要時間好那很好那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了現在就是因為你早就已經小於62%\n\n30\n00:10:59,062 --> 00:11:22,032\n現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生市長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖廚餘山就馬上趕往現場但是\n\n31\n00:11:23,112 --> 00:11:41,085\n台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合\n\n32\n00:11:41,966 --> 00:12:11,028\n我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說啊對啊有可能對這個地下水啊造成汙染啊等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說哇可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年欸你說啊我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題啊地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水\n\n33\n00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:17,264\n帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標\n\n34\n00:12:18,789 --> 00:12:41,694\n包委員你那個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來呢他們也發現說他們的這樣都\n\n35\n00:12:43,934 --> 00:13:01,706\n不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引所以他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的手廚藥處理打臉三今天的打臉三這位次長\n\n36\n00:13:02,566 --> 00:13:07,769\n你應該記得吧你上了好多新聞你在過去112年113年114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下當時呢您還說台中市務實的作為亮眼的表現優等獎\n\n37\n00:13:19,955 --> 00:13:34,430\n如果說台中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個環境部絕對不是側應我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來\n\n38\n00:13:43,159 --> 00:13:57,055\n現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引啊我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個呢是委員你說的這個是\n\n39\n00:13:57,936 --> 00:14:22,856\n台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的生殖能廠他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時增組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正我等一下跟你講的指引指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去\n\n40\n00:14:23,496 --> 00:14:42,931\n他就部分拿去燒因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢這些側翼又出來亂又說什麼燒又不行現在變成我不是側翼我不是側翼我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片投影片\n\n41\n00:14:43,271 --> 00:15:12,643\n但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同\n\n42\n00:15:13,303 --> 00:15:25,417\n我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊他說\n\n43\n00:15:32,265 --> 00:15:43,185\n能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以消也可以堆沒有再細分了\n\n44\n00:15:44,295 --> 00:16:12,876\n可是我希望我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼嘛因為你剛就講啦怕地下水污染啊緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了嘛\n\n45\n00:16:13,756 --> 00:16:37,262\n這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段時間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟你反映地方政府\n\n46\n00:16:37,802 --> 00:16:49,535\n當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了\n\n47\n00:16:51,765 --> 00:17:07,853\n這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋掩埋就一定要附圖他過去就是也有照你的規範不然他不會跟你講嘛沒有照我們的規範我也沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員這個當天我到現場去\n\n48\n00:17:09,073 --> 00:17:31,803\n那確實那個場地它的設置就不符合我們多維廠的規範我們多維廠有它設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量\n\n49\n00:17:32,643 --> 00:17:50,328\n超大量所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了好嗎謝謝我自己澄清我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情我從頭到尾都沒有講\n\n50\n00:17:57,209 --> 00:18:14,537\n我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳偉謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3969\t30271\t謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝各位官員的出席我想請環境部部長來 請部長陳委員好部長好之前我們風災之後處理這些光電板的回收片片有序號是環境部還有經濟部做過的圖卡而且人民也全民都掛在嘴上片片有序號片片有身分證 片片都找不回來\n31151\t48631\t這個你應該記得 風災之後呢 證明點以前的官員 他就在他自己的社群發言說廢棄的光碟板真的太多了如果沒有簡易 迅速 有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉\n49492\t66799\t這個你應該也記得你馬上用您的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能言署\n68159\t88167\t發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個\n92228\t119514\t因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下已改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來\n120174\t134874\t包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶\n135635\t153124\t你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採中央但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要來看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點\n153697\t173895\t好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大\n175356\t199108\t12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了\n199768\t218840\t那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等\n219500\t241201\t全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您\n242282\t263704\t這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎\n265398\t291539\t因為我沒有在看電視 公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息我現在告訴您 您覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時我們有一個指引如果說要來進行掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的\n292119\t315330\t我懂等一下我會跟你討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能齁我跟你分析了一下其實大部分廚餘每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學啊你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能\n315990\t337877\t只有不是你剛講的1620噸因為你剛一再的強調說我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1620噸然後你們就拿2115噸減到1620噸得出一個很漂亮的結論說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸你們樂觀的講說妥善處理絕對沒有問題下一張我要跟你細細的討論是這中間的\n348639\t372507\t這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠 高效堆肥設備再生能源廠 黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的\n374290\t400558\t你是說1620不對嗎對 平常他沒有做到1620啊平常他沒有做到1620啊這是設施的量能設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點嘛 的確是但的確他很久沒有做了嘛沒有什麼沒有很久沒有做他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都 豬瘟每天都發生嘛所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能\n401206\t418476\t好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的手廚魚就是因為手廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的\n419056\t431953\t都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的\n433188\t448623\t我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯\n450126\t477430\t這個才是重點啊 包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵主來做處理那這個目前的量當然比較少啊這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式\n477870\t490127\t你承認吧 有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本 是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式\n491141\t516672\t不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的減合他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊\n517697\t539958\t跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後\n541639\t570069\t經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深廚宇加熟廚宇所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟廚宇全部可以嗎它比例是偏低了吧這裡面已經有在處理深廚宇了那我們慢慢再把熟廚宇加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是\n570549\t578806\t我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎\n583854\t605948\t如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情呢1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我們說的很清楚喔大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎\n606468\t631141\t我跟委員說明一下 委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售 可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好 那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對\n632282\t657781\t廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園 像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座這個需要時間好 那很好那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了現在就是因為你早就已經小於62%\n659062\t682032\t現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生市長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖廚餘山就馬上趕往現場但是\n683112\t701085\t台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合\n701966\t731028\t我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說啊對啊有可能對這個地下水啊造成汙染啊等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說哇可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年欸你說啊我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題啊地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水\n731990\t737264\t帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標\n738789\t761694\t包委員 你那個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來呢他們也發現說他們的這樣都\n763934\t781706\t不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引所以他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的手廚藥處理打臉三今天的打臉三這位次長\n782566\t787769\t你應該記得吧 你上了好多新聞你在過去112年 113年 114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下 當時呢 您還說台中市務實的作為 亮眼的表現優等獎\n799955\t814430\t如果說台中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個環境部絕對不是側應我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來\n823159\t837055\t現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引啊我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個呢是委員你說的這個是\n837936\t862856\t台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的生殖能廠他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時增組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正我等一下跟你講的指引 指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去\n863496\t882931\t他就部分拿去燒 因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢 這些側翼又出來亂 又說什麼燒又不行 現在變成我不是側翼 我不是側翼 我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片 投影片\n883271\t912643\t但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同\n913303\t925417\t我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊 他說\n932265\t943185\t能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以消也可以堆沒有再細分了\n944295\t972876\t可是我希望我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼嘛因為你剛就講啦怕地下水污染啊緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了嘛\n973756\t997262\t這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段時間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟你反映地方政府\n997802\t1009535\t當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了\n1011765\t1027853\t這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋 掩埋就一定要附圖他過去就是也有照你的規範 不然他不會跟你講嘛沒有照我們的規範 我也沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員 這個當天我到現場去\n1029073\t1051803\t那確實那個場地它的設置就不符合我們多維廠的規範我們多維廠有它設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量\n1052643\t1070328\t超大量 所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府 地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了 好嗎 謝謝我自己澄清 我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情我從頭到尾都沒有講\n1077209\t1094537\t我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝各位官員的出席我想請環境部部長來 請部長陳委員好部長好之前我們風災之後處理這些光電板的回收片片有序號是環境部還有經濟部做過的圖卡而且人民也全民都掛在嘴上片片有序號片片有身分證 片片都找不回來\n這個你應該記得 風災之後呢 證明點以前的官員 他就在他自己的社群發言說廢棄的光碟板真的太多了如果沒有簡易 迅速 有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉\n這個你應該也記得你馬上用您的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能言署\n發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個\n因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下已改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來\n包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶\n你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採中央但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要來看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點\n好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大\n12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了\n那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等\n全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您\n這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎\n因為我沒有在看電視 公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息我現在告訴您 您覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時我們有一個指引如果說要來進行掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的\n我懂等一下我會跟你討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能齁我跟你分析了一下其實大部分廚餘每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學啊你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能\n只有不是你剛講的1620噸因為你剛一再的強調說我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1620噸然後你們就拿2115噸減到1620噸得出一個很漂亮的結論說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸你們樂觀的講說妥善處理絕對沒有問題下一張我要跟你細細的討論是這中間的\n這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠 高效堆肥設備再生能源廠 黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的\n你是說1620不對嗎對 平常他沒有做到1620啊平常他沒有做到1620啊這是設施的量能設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點嘛 的確是但的確他很久沒有做了嘛沒有什麼沒有很久沒有做他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都 豬瘟每天都發生嘛所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能\n好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的手廚魚就是因為手廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的\n都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的\n我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯\n這個才是重點啊 包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵主來做處理那這個目前的量當然比較少啊這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式\n你承認吧 有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本 是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式\n不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的減合他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊\n跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後\n經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深廚宇加熟廚宇所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟廚宇全部可以嗎它比例是偏低了吧這裡面已經有在處理深廚宇了那我們慢慢再把熟廚宇加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是\n我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎\n如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情呢1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我們說的很清楚喔大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎\n我跟委員說明一下 委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售 可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好 那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對\n廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園 像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座這個需要時間好 那很好那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了現在就是因為你早就已經小於62%\n現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生市長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖廚餘山就馬上趕往現場但是\n台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合\n我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說啊對啊有可能對這個地下水啊造成汙染啊等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說哇可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年欸你說啊我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題啊地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水\n帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標\n包委員 你那個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來呢他們也發現說他們的這樣都\n不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引所以他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的手廚藥處理打臉三今天的打臉三這位次長\n你應該記得吧 你上了好多新聞你在過去112年 113年 114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下 當時呢 您還說台中市務實的作為 亮眼的表現優等獎\n如果說台中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個環境部絕對不是側應我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來\n現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引啊我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個呢是委員你說的這個是\n台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的生殖能廠他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時增組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正我等一下跟你講的指引 指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去\n他就部分拿去燒 因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢 這些側翼又出來亂 又說什麼燒又不行 現在變成我不是側翼 我不是側翼 我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片 投影片\n但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同\n我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊 他說\n能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以消也可以堆沒有再細分了\n可是我希望我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼嘛因為你剛就講啦怕地下水污染啊緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了嘛\n這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段時間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟你反映地方政府\n當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了\n這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋 掩埋就一定要附圖他過去就是也有照你的規範 不然他不會跟你講嘛沒有照我們的規範 我也沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員 這個當天我到現場去\n那確實那個場地它的設置就不符合我們多維廠的規範我們多維廠有它設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量\n超大量 所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府 地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了 好嗎 謝謝我自己澄清 我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情我從頭到尾都沒有講\n我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.969 --> 00:30.271\n謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝各位官員的出席我想請環境部部長來請部長陳委員好部長好之前我們風災之後處理這些光電板的回收片片有序號是環境部還有經濟部做過的圖卡而且人民也全民都掛在嘴上片片有序號片片有身分證片片都找不回來\n\n00:31.151 --> 00:48.631\n這個你應該記得風災之後呢證明點以前的官員他就在他自己的社群發言說廢棄的光碟板真的太多了如果沒有簡易迅速有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉\n\n00:49.492 --> 01:06.799\n這個你應該也記得你馬上用您的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能言署\n\n01:08.159 --> 01:28.167\n發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個\n\n01:32.228 --> 01:59.514\n因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下已改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來\n\n02:00.174 --> 02:14.874\n包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶\n\n02:15.635 --> 02:33.124\n你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採中央但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要來看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點\n\n02:33.697 --> 02:53.895\n好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大\n\n02:55.356 --> 03:19.108\n12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了\n\n03:19.768 --> 03:38.840\n那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等\n\n03:39.500 --> 04:01.201\n全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您\n\n04:02.282 --> 04:23.704\n這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎\n\n04:25.398 --> 04:51.539\n因為我沒有在看電視公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息我現在告訴您您覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時我們有一個指引如果說要來進行掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的\n\n04:52.119 --> 05:15.330\n我懂等一下我會跟你討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能齁我跟你分析了一下其實大部分廚餘每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學啊你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能\n\n05:15.990 --> 05:37.877\n只有不是你剛講的1620噸因為你剛一再的強調說我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1620噸然後你們就拿2115噸減到1620噸得出一個很漂亮的結論說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸你們樂觀的講說妥善處理絕對沒有問題下一張我要跟你細細的討論是這中間的\n\n05:48.639 --> 06:12.507\n這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠高效堆肥設備再生能源廠黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的\n\n06:14.290 --> 06:40.558\n你是說1620不對嗎對平常他沒有做到1620啊平常他沒有做到1620啊這是設施的量能設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點嘛的確是但的確他很久沒有做了嘛沒有什麼沒有很久沒有做他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都豬瘟每天都發生嘛所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能\n\n06:41.206 --> 06:58.476\n好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的手廚魚就是因為手廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的\n\n06:59.056 --> 07:11.953\n都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的\n\n07:13.188 --> 07:28.623\n我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯\n\n07:30.126 --> 07:57.430\n這個才是重點啊包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵主來做處理那這個目前的量當然比較少啊這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式\n\n07:57.870 --> 08:10.127\n你承認吧有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式\n\n08:11.141 --> 08:36.672\n不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的減合他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊\n\n08:37.697 --> 08:59.958\n跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後\n\n09:01.639 --> 09:30.069\n經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深廚宇加熟廚宇所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟廚宇全部可以嗎它比例是偏低了吧這裡面已經有在處理深廚宇了那我們慢慢再把熟廚宇加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是\n\n09:30.549 --> 09:38.806\n我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎\n\n09:43.854 --> 10:05.948\n如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情呢1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我們說的很清楚喔大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎\n\n10:06.468 --> 10:31.141\n我跟委員說明一下委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對\n\n10:32.282 --> 10:57.781\n廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座這個需要時間好那很好那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了現在就是因為你早就已經小於62%\n\n10:59.062 --> 11:22.032\n現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生市長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖廚餘山就馬上趕往現場但是\n\n11:23.112 --> 11:41.085\n台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合\n\n11:41.966 --> 12:11.028\n我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說啊對啊有可能對這個地下水啊造成汙染啊等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說哇可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年欸你說啊我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題啊地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水\n\n12:11.990 --> 12:17.264\n帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標\n\n12:18.789 --> 12:41.694\n包委員你那個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來呢他們也發現說他們的這樣都\n\n12:43.934 --> 13:01.706\n不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引所以他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的手廚藥處理打臉三今天的打臉三這位次長\n\n13:02.566 --> 13:07.769\n你應該記得吧你上了好多新聞你在過去112年113年114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下當時呢您還說台中市務實的作為亮眼的表現優等獎\n\n13:19.955 --> 13:34.430\n如果說台中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個環境部絕對不是側應我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來\n\n13:43.159 --> 13:57.055\n現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引啊我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個呢是委員你說的這個是\n\n13:57.936 --> 14:22.856\n台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的生殖能廠他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時增組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正我等一下跟你講的指引指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去\n\n14:23.496 --> 14:42.931\n他就部分拿去燒因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢這些側翼又出來亂又說什麼燒又不行現在變成我不是側翼我不是側翼我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片投影片\n\n14:43.271 --> 15:12.643\n但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同\n\n15:13.303 --> 15:25.417\n我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊他說\n\n15:32.265 --> 15:43.185\n能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以消也可以堆沒有再細分了\n\n15:44.295 --> 16:12.876\n可是我希望我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼嘛因為你剛就講啦怕地下水污染啊緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了嘛\n\n16:13.756 --> 16:37.262\n這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段時間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟你反映地方政府\n\n16:37.802 --> 16:49.535\n當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了\n\n16:51.765 --> 17:07.853\n這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋掩埋就一定要附圖他過去就是也有照你的規範不然他不會跟你講嘛沒有照我們的規範我也沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員這個當天我到現場去\n\n17:09.073 --> 17:31.803\n那確實那個場地它的設置就不符合我們多維廠的規範我們多維廠有它設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量\n\n17:32.643 --> 17:50.328\n超大量所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了好嗎謝謝我自己澄清我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情我從頭到尾都沒有講\n\n17:57.209 --> 18:14.537\n我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳偉謝謝部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.969,"end":30.271,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝各位官員的出席我想請環境部部長來 請部長陳委員好部長好之前我們風災之後處理這些光電板的回收片片有序號是環境部還有經濟部做過的圖卡而且人民也全民都掛在嘴上片片有序號片片有身分證 片片都找不回來"},{"start":31.151,"end":48.631,"text":"這個你應該記得 風災之後呢 證明點以前的官員 他就在他自己的社群發言說廢棄的光碟板真的太多了如果沒有簡易 迅速 有效的做法回收成本會真的太高會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉"},{"start":49.492,"end":66.799,"text":"這個你應該也記得你馬上用您的私人帳號到下面去回說每一片都有序號流向有追蹤設置業者需要負責這個右邊也是我們環境部的官方稿我給你看我今天早上熱騰騰收到的公文經濟部能言署"},{"start":68.159,"end":88.167,"text":"發給我們的因為上次我問你說8月本來要給我序號後來你說9月底10月還是拿不出來好現在快要11月是真的拿不出來經濟物能研署我把重點畫給你看他說因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號打臉一第二個"},{"start":92.228,"end":119.514,"text":"因為本次丹納斯風災造成大量損毀所以多餘第一時間清除回收序號盤點實務上已不可行環境部亦建議天災情況下已改採重量為基礎管控回收作業以處理處理效率提高處理效率打臉2我想問你我們現在的slogan是不是要改成片片有序號片片找不回來"},{"start":120.174,"end":134.874,"text":"包委員這個您同時要兩個部會要這個答案那本部呢我是要求說我們還是要有序號所以我要求說能夠再跟能源署再協商因為量實在太大因為我們過去呢可是它上面寫的是環境部意見議耶"},{"start":135.635,"end":153.124,"text":"你的意思是說其實你告訴能源署的是我建議改採中央但是我還是需要許好他只是沒把它寫出來報告委員因為您的所知我們必須要來看那我昨天對於這個回應本人不覺得說應該要再確認一點所以我有請他們能夠再退回去再確認清楚一點"},{"start":153.697,"end":173.895,"text":"好所以這份之後還會再改對我希望因為我認為片片都有這是原來的原則當然有些是毀壞的多少片那它需要是多少到多少一定知道的嘛所以好現在環境部跟能源署不同調委員你不能這樣說這處理程序有差別這處理程序有差別基本上因為這個量實在太大"},{"start":175.356,"end":199.108,"text":"12.1萬片所以基本上很大那有些好的我相信他們如果要用都知道這個序號但是有些的確是已經去化掉的那個序號真的要花一點時間好吧那他的報告是寫以致於無法盤點模組序號所以您跟他看法是不同的你還會再跟能源署溝通嗎我們還是會希望我們同仁能夠找到這樣的數據所以我已經要求他們能夠再做處理了"},{"start":199.768,"end":218.84,"text":"那我們看一下這個投影片因為10月21號驗出非洲豬瘟所以10月22號環境部跟農業部一起宣布說我們不要再用廚餘餵豬了這個是境外病毒進來我們的豬農也在哭泣其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉上漲等等"},{"start":219.5,"end":241.201,"text":"全部的人都是受害者結果呢像這樣子的台之前在大罷免大成功唱歌跳舞的這樣子的台這樣子的主持人每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們就是配合中央政策之下為了預防二次公衛的危機所以配合您"},{"start":242.282,"end":263.704,"text":"這些高油高熱的熱廚餘熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處嗎他就是很油或是很鹹用掩埋或者是用堆肥或是用燒的那你覺得這樣子在第一線的人員傷口上撒鹽把它做成善效的節目合理嗎這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎"},{"start":265.398,"end":291.539,"text":"因為我沒有在看電視 公務繁忙所以我沒有看到這個訊息我現在告訴您 您覺得這樣子合理嗎因為我們本部在發生疫情的第二天我們就召集了各個縣市環保局因為有四年前曾經發生過一次那也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘那當時我們有一個指引如果說要來進行掩埋的話那有一定的一個規範每天要進行復土的"},{"start":292.119,"end":315.33,"text":"我懂等一下我會跟你討論這個指引這個指引我也有研究完了再來您剛有提到您這個量能齁我跟你分析了一下其實大部分廚餘每天2115公噸那我們拿去做飼料化的是62.6%所以我做了一點數學啊你每天其實可以靠著非飼料化的量能"},{"start":315.99,"end":337.877,"text":"只有不是你剛講的1620噸因為你剛一再的強調說我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1620噸然後你們就拿2115噸減到1620噸得出一個很漂亮的結論說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸你們樂觀的講說妥善處理絕對沒有問題下一張我要跟你細細的討論是這中間的"},{"start":348.639,"end":372.507,"text":"這邊我們去分析啊你說1620噸你把它加起來傳統堆肥廠 高效堆肥設備再生能源廠 黑水龍等等我們把它加起來實際上我剛算的數學是790多那你現在說你的量能是1620第一個問題是你平常沒有這麼多的量能現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的"},{"start":374.29,"end":400.558,"text":"你是說1620不對嗎對 平常他沒有做到1620啊平常他沒有做到1620啊這是設施的量能設施的量能所以目前的設施量能都是必須環境部發給他去盤點嘛 的確是但的確他很久沒有做了嘛沒有什麼沒有很久沒有做他很久沒有做這麼大的量能我們天災不可能常常每次都 豬瘟每天都發生嘛所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能"},{"start":401.206,"end":418.476,"text":"好那我查了一些資料為什麼這些人他沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的手廚魚就是因為手廚魚裡面有油有鹽其實可以去做到能源化肥料化還有其他的"},{"start":419.056,"end":431.953,"text":"都是一些生廚魚啊否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死這些發酵的菌種導致堆肥失敗或是高的油脂會阻礙氧氣導致豔陽腐敗等等的"},{"start":433.188,"end":448.623,"text":"我想問的是如果你現在有這麼大的量能你可不可以列出來你直接列出來用口語話告訴大家說你說的1620到底可以處理幾頓的剩菜剩飯就是熟廚與剩菜剩飯"},{"start":450.126,"end":477.43,"text":"這個才是重點啊 包委員重點不是在這邊你說的是有一點可以修正第一個廚餘是基本上現在未租其實它是一個最低成本的這個做法那大多數是移到這個廚餘去徵主來做處理那這個目前的量當然比較少啊這不是最低成本的做法我引述一個你們環管署的一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話都出現在新聞上他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式"},{"start":477.87,"end":490.127,"text":"你承認吧 有一個官員說過這句話所以不是最低成本 是你們環境部講出來的這是一個資源循環的方式最好的利用方式"},{"start":491.141,"end":516.672,"text":"不用付錢啊那我們現在要問的是第一平常1620噸的這個量能沒有展開你如何確定這些廠他可能並沒有做維修或是定期的減合他突然可以開1620還有好啊開1620很好啊大家都覺得很好嘛那1620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛就是生菜生飯到底1620可以處理生菜生飯比例是多高這個是你要告訴大家的啊"},{"start":517.697,"end":539.958,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個廚宇的處理設施主要是這個廚宇進來之後當然要培養它的菌那根據我們過去的一個經驗像台南市它過去它的高速堆積設施它是處理生廚宇後來它慢慢地把熟廚宇加進去之後"},{"start":541.639,"end":570.069,"text":"經過一段時間它就穩定了所以現在台南市它的高效堆毀設施它處理的就是深廚宇加熟廚宇所以這個是處理是沒有問題的1620全部可以處理熟廚宇全部可以嗎它比例是偏低了吧這裡面已經有在處理深廚宇了那我們慢慢再把熟廚宇加進去之後它只要達到一個穩定的狀態它就可以處理了像新竹市它現在的處理設施也是"},{"start":570.549,"end":578.806,"text":"我都聽得懂我只是要告訴你我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚魚要處理你這個1620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚魚嗎可以嗎"},{"start":583.854,"end":605.948,"text":"如果一天進去當然這個是有問題但是我們是慢慢進去所以我們是可以逐步去把它去化掉好那我們知道一件事情呢1620其實大部分他沒有辦法處理剩菜剩飯好再來委員不要斷章取義我們說的很清楚喔大部分不是都可以全部嗎1620全部都可以嗎"},{"start":606.468,"end":631.141,"text":"我跟委員說明一下 委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的一個價格的分析我剛為什麼去講說廚藝成本是最低是因為像清潔隊的廚藝是還可以標售 可以賣錢如果你今天收了廚藝不能再養豬的時候他是要付錢去給民間的堆灰廠也好或者是清潔隊的堆灰廠也好 那個都是要付出成本的但是我們必須要面對"},{"start":632.282,"end":657.781,"text":"廚藝如果要走處理的方式的時候我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的比如說黑水盲也是一個我們要未來的潛力包括生殖能源的部分像桃園 像台中這兩個一個生殖廚藝都可以廚藝的我們會再增加幾座這個需要時間好 那很好那你的圖就不會化成62%全部往事料化了現在就是因為你早就已經小於62%"},{"start":659.062,"end":682.032,"text":"現在62%是因為廚藝可以養豬所以他自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理假設政策決定不再廚藝養豬自然而然1620就會有這個效果會產生市長剛好你也在現場這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆圖廚餘山就馬上趕往現場但是"},{"start":683.112,"end":701.085,"text":"台中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊他說短期內就只能堆肥或掩埋或者是燒結果你們去了以後他們其實是用最快的速度找地方法緊急堆肥然後再灑木屑掩蓋堆肥結果呢你們就配合"},{"start":701.966,"end":731.028,"text":"我不知道你們配合什麼啦反正你們說啊對啊有可能對這個地下水啊造成汙染啊等等我是覺得很寒心因為碼頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說環境部報這個廚餘山馬上就說哇可能對環境會造成困擾結果你上禮拜去碼頭山那個東西是堆了一兩年欸你說啊我這個化驗也沒問題那個化驗也沒問題啊地下水也沒問題後來我們跟你說那地面水呢你有沒有想到地面水"},{"start":731.99,"end":737.264,"text":"帶著你去找地面水然後你說啊不行今天採檢實在是太危險了很寒心啊這是什麼雙標"},{"start":738.789,"end":761.694,"text":"包委員 你那個有所誤解我們那天禮拜天我們在開跟台中的工作會議的時候我們就有提到因為台中市的報告說在掩埋場做堆肥那基本上我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥沒有堆肥在掩埋場的掩埋場有掩埋場的一個規定所以當天下午我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察說他是不是符合規定後來呢他們也發現說他們的這樣都"},{"start":763.934,"end":781.706,"text":"不符合我們對於這個掩埋的一個指引也不符合這個堆肥的一個指引所以他們就進行了一個修正我跟你說這個問題就跟你剛講的風災完了以後就有大量的光電板一樣現在我們就是有大量的手廚藥處理打臉三今天的打臉三這位次長"},{"start":782.566,"end":787.769,"text":"你應該記得吧 你上了好多新聞你在過去112年 113年 114年啊你可是頒發台中市是基優處理廚餘的程式我念一下 當時呢 您還說台中市務實的作為 亮眼的表現優等獎"},{"start":799.955,"end":814.43,"text":"如果說台中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題像你剛剛講的這麼有問題他連年是得你們的獎啦你們環境部在做什麼你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正委員第一個環境部絕對不是側應我們是照我們的專業在做事情你應該要給的東西是什麼我等一下告訴你現在就是這麼大量就像你剛剛講的為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來"},{"start":823.159,"end":837.055,"text":"現在就是很大量他絕對不是不會處理廚餘是現在一口氣非常的大量他需要你的指引是更加明確的指引啊我們指引在第一天就出來了第二個呢是委員你說的這個是"},{"start":837.936,"end":862.856,"text":"台中有一個外埔的生殖能廠他那個表現很好所以他們在前兩年的的確得到我們那個獎項是外埔的生殖能廠他有一些回收的一個標準跟這一次這個廚餘他沒有按時增組的這個去集合是沒有關係我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標所以請委員要暴增導正我等一下跟你講的指引 指引在最後台中市政府聽到你講的東西好他又說好他去"},{"start":863.496,"end":882.931,"text":"他就部分拿去燒 因為你們就現場給予一些建議台中市政府也採納您的建議了結果呢 這些側翼又出來亂 又說什麼燒又不行 現在變成我不是側翼 我不是側翼 我們是照我的專業在做事情我指的是我的投影片 投影片"},{"start":883.271,"end":912.643,"text":"但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼我也不認識這些議員啊我們只是覺得韓星因為你們去這個山跟那個山你們對於有可能污染地下水有可能污染地下水這個標準差很多委員你不能這樣指控當天有當天不一樣的事情我跟你說我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼現在各縣市的做法就是不一樣你說你給了指引可是大家的做法完全不同"},{"start":913.303,"end":925.417,"text":"我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施地方政府就乖乖照著做因為他們應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛你要給的是剛性的配套措施嘛這邊我說你們跟環境部開會開了什麼這就是地方政府說的啊 他說"},{"start":932.265,"end":943.185,"text":"能源化快速發酵堆肥為主焚化掩埋為輔這也是你剛給的報告所以他們就是照做然後中央表示廚餘都可以消也可以堆沒有再細分了"},{"start":944.295,"end":972.876,"text":"可是我希望我希望你今天我們質詢完你明確的可以告訴地方政府是什麼第一就是清清楚楚的看優先順序假使我們的熟廚一下子很大量上千噸第一優先是焚化還是掩埋第二技術的規範是什麼嘛因為你剛就講啦怕地下水污染啊緊急掩埋的附土標準防滲透標準是什麼因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了嘛"},{"start":973.756,"end":997.262,"text":"這些條件你可以委員我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範很清楚是以什麼樣的為主你上面說的都很清楚都是我們的一個規範而且呢我們也特別要把在這段時間的清運過程有沒有產生一些問題我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力的合作所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在我們環保局各縣市環保局的會議裡面都很清楚我只是跟你反映地方政府"},{"start":997.802,"end":1009.535,"text":"當然我必須說垃圾處理是一二三四為主他照做二三為輔他也照做然後你說可以燒也可以堆沒有在細分這也是他們開會的會計我把他們會計都要來了"},{"start":1011.765,"end":1027.853,"text":"這個裡面要做有一定的規範啊例如說掩埋 掩埋就一定要附圖他過去就是也有照你的規範 不然他不會跟你講嘛沒有照我們的規範 我也沒有照我們的規範進行那你過去來我們請我們副組長說明一下報告委員 這個當天我到現場去"},{"start":1029.073,"end":1051.803,"text":"那確實那個場地它的設置就不符合我們多維廠的規範我們多維廠有它設置的一個規範那我也跟他們的副市長跟局長有溝通過那他也承認他那樣的一個方式其實我希望的是就像你們面對光電板一樣從頭到尾我就講現在的狀況是超大量"},{"start":1052.643,"end":1070.328,"text":"超大量 所以你必須要協助地方政府我們真的是希望中央政府 地方政府一條心如果有更好應付超大量的方式的話那我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好因為主席已經站起來了 好嗎 謝謝我自己澄清 我們絕對不是側翼我們依照我們的專業在做事情我從頭到尾都沒有講"},{"start":1077.209,"end":1094.537,"text":"我期待你最新的報告跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底片片有序號這件事情落不落實的下去這個我們正在處理當中他的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了這個是我們也會繼續很多全國人民關心的 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時39分）謝謝主席，也謝謝委員、謝謝各位官員的出席。請環境部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。之前風災之後處理這些光電板的回收，「片片有序號」是環境部及經濟部做過的圖卡，而且全民都掛在嘴上，片片有序號，片片有身分證，但片片都找不回來。這個你應該記得，風災之後，以前的官員鄭明典就在他自己的社群發言說，廢棄的光電板真的太多了！如果沒有簡易、迅速、有效的作法，回收成本會真的太高，會有人用很簡單的方法把它處理掉。這個你應該也記得，你馬上用你的私人帳號到下面去回說，每一片都有序號，流向有追蹤，設置業者需要負責。這個右邊也是環境部的官方稿。","我給你看我今天早上收到的熱騰騰的公文，是經濟部能源署發給我們的，因為上次我問你時，你本來是8月要給我序號，後來你說9月底，結果10月還是拿不出來，現在快要11月了，是真的拿不出來。這是經濟部能源署的回文，我把重點劃給你看，他說，因環境或蚊蟲滋生疑慮，所以回收處理致使無法直接盤點損壞設備之序號，打臉一。第二個，因為本次丹娜絲風災造成大量損毀，所以多於第一時間清除回收，序號盤點實務上已不可行。環境部亦建議，天災情況下宜改採重量為基礎管控回收作業，以提高處理效率，打臉二。我想問你，我們現在的slogan是不是要改成「片片有序號，片片找不回來」？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，您同時跟兩個部會要這個答案，本部的部分我是要求我們還是要有序號，所以我要求再跟能源署協商，因為量實在太大，因為我們過去……"],["陳委員菁徽：可是它上面寫的是「環境部亦建議」耶！你的意思是說，其實你告訴能源署的是：我建議改以重量為基礎，但還是需要序號。它只是沒把它寫出來。"],["彭部長啓明：對。報告委員，因為您的索資我們必須要看，我昨天對這個回應覺得應該要再確認一點，所以我有請他們退回去，再確認清楚一點。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，所以這一份之後還會再改？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我希望。因為我認為片片都有序號是原來的原則，當然有些是毀壞的，它的序號是多少到多少，這是一定知道的嘛！"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以現在環境部跟能源署不同調。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣說，這個處理程序有差別。基本上因為這個量實在太大，有12.1萬片，有些好的，我相信他們如果要用，都知道這個序號，但有些的確是已經去化掉的，那個序號真的要花一點時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：好吧！那他的報告是寫「致無法盤點模組序號」，所以您跟他的看法是不同的。"],["彭部長啓明：無法盤點……"],["陳委員菁徽：您還會再跟能源署溝通？"],["彭部長啓明：我們還是會希望我們的同仁能找到這樣的數據，所以我已經要求他們再做處理了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。我們看一下這個投影片，因為10月21日驗出非洲豬瘟，所以10月22日環境部和農業部一起宣布不要再用廚餘餵豬了。好，這是境外病毒進來，我們的豬農也在哭泣，其實很多家庭主婦也很擔心豬肉價格上漲等等，全部的人都是受害者，結果像之前在「大罷免、大成功」唱歌跳舞的電視節目主持人，每天卻在嘲諷所謂的廚餘山，你覺得這樣合理嗎？因為我們就是配合中央的政策，為了預防二次公衛危機，所以配合您，這些高油、高熱的熱廚餘、熟廚餘瞬間沒有去處，因為它就是很油或很鹹，用掩埋、堆肥或燒的，你覺得像這樣在第一線人員傷口上撒鹽，把它做成訕笑的節目合理嗎？這個時候需要做這種政治攻擊嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我公務繁忙，沒有在看電視，所以我沒有看到這個訊息。第二個是……"],["陳委員菁徽：我現在告訴您了，您覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，本部在發生疫情的第二天就召集各縣市環保局，因為4年前曾經發生過一次，也是差不多一個月不要運送廚餘，當時我們有一個指引，如果要進行掩埋的話，有一定的規範，每天要進行覆土。"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂，等一下我會跟你討論這個指引，這個指引我也研究完了。","再來，您剛剛有提到量能，我跟你分析了一下，其實大部分廚餘每天2,115公噸，拿去做飼料化的是62.6%，所以我做了一點數學，你每天其實可以靠的非飼料化的量能不是你剛剛講的1,620公噸，因為你剛剛一再強調說，我們現在非餵養豬的再利用量能每天有1,620噸，然後你們就拿2,115噸減掉1,620噸，得出一個很漂亮的結論，說整體的再利用空間空缺只有495噸，還樂觀地說妥善處理絕對沒有問題。","我要跟你細細討論的是，你說1,620噸，你把它加起來，傳統堆肥場、高效堆肥設備、再生能源廠、黑水虻等等，把它加起來，實際上我剛剛算的數學是七百九十多，你現在說你的量能是1,620，第一個問題是，你平常沒有這麼多的量能，現在這個量能是怎麼生出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你是說1,620不對嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：對、對。平常沒有做到1,620啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這是設施的量能，目前的設施量能必須是環境部發給許可的……"],["陳委員菁徽：去盤點嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：的確是有1,620。"],["陳委員菁徽：但它的確是很久沒有做了嘛！對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：什麼是很久沒有做？"],["陳委員菁徽：它很久沒有做這麼大的量能。"],["彭部長啓明：豬瘟不可能每天都發生嘛，所以基本上這是我們核准的一個量能。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我查了一些資料，為什麼這些人沒有辦法去回收我們現在提到的熟廚餘？就是因為熟廚餘裡面有油、有鹽，其實可以做到能源化、肥料化還有其他的都是一些生廚餘，否則高鹽的成分可能會殺死發酵的菌種，導致堆肥失敗，或是高油脂會阻礙氧氣，導致厭氧腐敗等等的，我想問的是，如果現在有這麼大的量能，你可不可以列出來？你直接列出來，用口語化的方式告訴大家你說的1,620到底可以處理幾噸的剩菜、剩飯？就是熟廚餘，剩菜、剩飯。這才是重點啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，重點不是在這邊，你說的有一點可以修正，第一個，廚餘餵豬基本上是現在最低成本的做法，大多數是移到廚餘蒸煮來做處理，這個目前的量當然比較少啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，這不是最低成本的做法，我引述你們環管署一般廢棄物管理組組長講過的話，這都出現在新聞上了，他說養豬是廚餘最好的利用方式。你承認吧？有一個官員說過這句話。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以不是最低成本？是你們環境部講出來的，說這是最好的……"],["彭部長啓明：這是一個資源循環的方式。"],["陳委員菁徽：是最好的利用方式。"],["彭部長啓明：不用付錢啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：那我們現在要問的是，第一，平常1,620噸的這個量能沒有展開，你如何確定這些場可能並沒有做維修或是定期檢核，突然就可以開1,620？還有，開1,620很好啊！大家都覺得很好嘛！那1,620到底可不可以處理廚餘嘛！就是剩菜、剩飯，到底1,620可以處理剩菜、剩飯的比例是多高？這是你要告訴大家的啊！"],["林副署長左祥：跟委員報告，我們這個廚餘的處理設施主要是廚餘進來之後，當然要培養它的菌，根據我們過去的經驗，像臺南市，它過去的高效堆肥設施是處理生廚餘，後來慢慢地把熟廚餘加進去，經過一段時間，它就穩定了，所以現在臺南市的高效堆肥設施處理的就是生廚餘加熟廚餘，所以……"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！那比例呢？"],["林副署長左祥：所以處理是沒有問題的。"],["陳委員菁徽：1,620全部可以處理熟廚餘嗎？它的比例是偏低的吧？"],["林副署長左祥：不是，這裡面已經有在處理生廚餘了，我們慢慢再把熟廚餘加進去之後，只要達到一個穩定的狀態，它就可以處理了，像新竹市，它現在的處理設施也是可以處理熟廚餘。"],["陳委員菁徽：OK，我都聽得懂，我只是要告訴你，我們現在就是突然有很多熟廚餘要處理，你這個1,620到底可不可以一口氣處理這麼多熟廚餘嘛！可以嗎？"],["林副署長左祥：如果一天進去當然是有問題，我們是慢慢進去，所以我們是可以逐步把它去化掉。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們知道一件事情了，1,620其實大部分沒有辦法處理剩菜、剩飯……"],["林副署長左祥：是可以的。"],["彭部長啓明：委員不要斷章取義喔！這個我們說得很清楚喔！"],["陳委員菁徽：我說「大部分」。"],["林副署長左祥：不是，都可以、都可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：全部嗎？1,620全部都可以嗎？"],["沈次長志修：我跟委員說明一下，委員沒有注意到這裡面有一個價量的價格分析，我剛剛為什麼講說廚餘成本最低，是因為像清潔隊的廚餘還可以標售、可以賣錢，如果你今天收了廚餘，卻不能再養豬的時候，他要付錢去給民間的堆肥場也好，或者是清潔隊的堆肥場也好，那都是要付出成本的。但我們必須要面對，廚餘如果要走處理的方式，我們會要求它資源循環是最重要的，比方說黑水虻也是一個我們未來的潛力，包括生質能源的部分，像桃園、臺中這兩個，一個是生、熟廚餘都可以處理，我們會再增加幾座，這個需要時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：那很好，這樣你的圖就不會畫成62%全部往飼料化了，你早就已經小於62%了。"],["沈次長志修：現在62%是因為廚餘可以養豬，所以它自然引導到一個價格比較低的方式去處理，假設政策決定不再用廚餘養豬，自然而然1,620就會有這個效果產生。以上跟委員報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，次長，剛好你也在現場，這個是環境部看到側翼發了一大堆廚餘山的圖，就馬上趕往現場，但臺中市政府就是依照你們環境部給的指引啊！它說短期內就只能堆肥、掩埋或者是燒，結果你們去了以後，他們其實是用最快的速度找地、找方法、緊急堆肥，然後再撒木屑掩蓋堆肥，結果你們就配合……我不知道你們配合什麼啦！反正你們說：對啊！有可能對地下水造成污染等等。我是覺得很寒心，因為馬頭山自救會會長馬上傳簡訊來跟我說，環境部到廚餘山馬上就說可能對環境會造成困擾，結果你上禮拜去馬頭山，那個東西是堆了一、兩年，你說這個化驗也沒問題、那個化驗也沒問題、地下水也沒問題，後來我們詢問地面水，問你有沒有想到地面水？帶著你去找地面水，然後你說不行，今天採檢實在是太危險了。很寒心啦，這是什麼雙標！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你有所誤解，禮拜天我們跟臺中在開工作會議時就有提到，因為臺中市報告說在掩埋場做堆肥，而基本上，我們的規定是堆肥就是堆肥，沒有堆肥放在掩埋場的，掩埋場有掩埋場的規定，所以當天下午，我特別請我們的副署長去那個地方視察它是不是符合規定，後來他們也發現他們這樣不符合我們對於掩埋的指引，也不符合堆肥的指引，所以他們就進行了修正。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我跟你說，這個問題就跟你剛剛講的，風災完了以後，就有大量的光電板一樣，現在我們就是有大量的熟廚餘要處理。","打臉三，今天的打臉三，這位次長，你應該記得吧，你上了好多新聞，你過去在112年、113年、114年，你可是頒發臺中市是績優處理廚餘的城市，我念一下，當時您還說臺中市務實的作為、亮眼的表現，是優等獎。如果臺中市對於廚餘的處理這麼有問題，像你剛剛講的這麼有問題，他連年是得你們的獎，你們環境部在做什麼？你們為什麼過去三年不去糾正、不去指導？你應該要給的是……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，第一個，環境部絕對不是刻意……"],["陳委員菁徽：你應該要給的是……"],["彭部長啓明：我們是照我們的專業在做事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：你應該要給的東西是什麼，我等一下告訴你，現在就是這麼大量，就像你剛剛講的，為什麼能源署會說序號最後找不回來，現在就是很大量的……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這是兩件事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：它絕對不是不會處理廚餘，而是現在一口氣非常的大量，它需要你的指引是更加明確的指引。"],["彭部長啓明：我們指引在第一天就出來了。第二個，委員，你說的這個是臺中有一個外埔的生質能場，那個表現很好，所以他們在前兩年的確得到我們的獎項，那是外埔的生質能場，它有一些回收標準，跟這一次廚餘沒有按時蒸煮去稽核沒有關係，我們沒有放在那個裡面當成是一個指標，所以請委員要報真導正。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，我等一下跟你講指引，指引在最後，臺中市政府聽到你講的東西，好，它就部分拿去燒，因為你們就現場給予一些建議，臺中市政府也採納您的建議了，結果這些側翼又出來亂，又說什麼燒又不行，現在變成……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我不是側翼，我不是側翼，我們是照我的專業在做事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我指的是我的投影片。"],["彭部長啓明：但是你不能指控他就是我的側翼，我也不認識這些議員。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，我們只是覺得寒心，因為你們去這個山跟那個山，你們對於有可能污染地下水……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這是不一樣的事情，委員，你不能這樣指控。"],["陳委員菁徽：有可能污染地下水，這個標準差很多啦！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣指控，當天有當天不一樣的事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，我已經每一個縣市都打電話過去了，為了今天好好的研究我們縣市政府的指引到底是什麼，現在各縣市的作法就是不一樣，你說你給了指引，可是大家的作法完全不同，我希望你給的是一個剛性的配套措施，地方政府就乖乖照著做，因為他們要應付的是一個比平常更大量的量能嘛！你要給的是剛性的配套措施。我問他們跟環境部開會開了什麼，這就是地方政府說的啊！他說能源化，快速發酵，堆肥為主，焚化、掩埋為輔。這也是你剛剛給的報告，所以他們就是照做，然後中央表示廚餘都可以燒、也可以堆，沒有再細分了。可是我希望今天我們質詢完，你可以明確的告訴地方政府什麼？第一，就是清清楚楚地看優先順序，假使我們的熟廚餘一下子很大量、上千噸，第一優先是焚化還是掩埋？第二，技術的規範是什麼？因為你剛剛就講了，怕地下水污染，緊急掩埋的覆土標準、防滲透標準是什麼，因為現在的量能就比平常多很多了，這些條件你可以……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們在第二天就有清楚的一個規範，很清楚是以什麼樣的為主，你上面說的都很清楚，都是我們的規範，而且我們也特別要把在這段期間的清運過程，有沒有產生一些問題，我們都跟各縣市環保局一起通力合作，所以其實這個規範都已經很明確的在各縣市環保局的會議裡面，都很清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：我只是跟你反映地方政府的狀況……"],["彭部長啓明：當然我必須說垃圾處理……"],["陳委員菁徽：一、二、三、四為主，他照做；二、三為輔，他也照做，然後你說可以燒，也可以堆，沒有在細分，這裡是他們開會的會議紀錄，我把他們會議紀錄都要來了。"],["彭部長啓明：這個裡面要做，有一定的規範，例如掩埋，掩埋就一定要覆土，都有規範。"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂！他過去也有照你的規範，不然他不會得你的獎嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有照我們的規範。委員，沒有照我們的規範進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：你過去……"],["彭部長啓明：來，我們請我們副署長說明一下。"],["林副署長左祥：報告委員，當天我到現場去，確實那個場地的設置就不符合我們堆肥場的規範，堆肥場有設置的規範，我也跟他們副市長、局長有溝通過，他也承認那樣的方式不適合堆肥，只能做掩埋……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，其實我希望的是，就像你們面對光電板一樣，從頭到尾，我就講了，現在的狀況是超大量、超大量，所以你必須要協助地方政府，我們真的是希望中央政府、地方政府一條心，如果有更好應付超大量的方式，我覺得每一個縣市都可以做得更好。因為主席已經站起來了，好嗎？謝謝，我也很期待環境部……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，所以我必須澄清我們絕對不是側翼，我們依照我們的專業在做事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我從來就沒有說你是側翼，我從頭到尾都沒有講！"],["彭部長啓明：有！你的簡報說得很清楚，說我們是側翼的側翼……"],["陳委員菁徽：我從頭到尾都沒有講你是側翼，我也期待你……"],["彭部長啓明：我必須要嚴格的指出，我們絕對不是側翼，我們憑專業在做事。"],["陳委員菁徽：我期待你最新的報告，跟能源署可以好好的聊出到底「片片有序號」這件事情落不落實得下去？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們正在處理當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：不是、不是，它的報告很明顯的就是寫他做不到了，這個部分我們也會繼續關注，這是全國人民關心的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長，謝謝。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}}