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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,588 --> 00:00:05,617\n謝謝主席麻煩邀請我們陳部長部長請\n\n2\n00:00:16,331 --> 00:00:42,615\n部長早安這個我們全台灣的捷運的建設那已經經過行政院核定要動工的要興建的在115年度的部分這個地方政府都有哀嚎就是補助大砍那我想確認一下就是我們每年可能在114今年114年的時候都會各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到我們交通部來我想先\n\n3\n00:00:43,355 --> 00:00:48,739\n確認一下114我們全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少114年就是114年送115的就是送明年他們要申請多少的總額114年是不是385億\n\n4\n00:01:02,506 --> 00:01:21,697\n就是明年啦就是明年他們地方政府總統跟我們交通部申請你說明年啦他們申請的部分是399億399億全部地方政府送的是399億嘛明年的需求是399億那我們實際上我們交通部核定多少我們今年核定90億所以就是399大概400億嘛然後就核100億\n\n5\n00:01:25,819 --> 00:01:40,442\n那有沒有哪一個地方政府他是沒有依照因為我們在行政院核定的時候也大概都會有一個分期分年度的一個進度然後他可能再依照實際的公敬來申請那有沒有地方政府他的提出的需求可能是我們認為\n\n6\n00:01:41,463 --> 00:02:08,449\n他有福報的一個情況或者說超過他的需求然後超過他的比例的這樣的情況實際上大家申請的數額都會比較高一點但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點我舉個例子啦例如說以台中市來說台中市應該中央跟地方的比例的分配是五五對四五那他本來寫出來的明年的需求是六十幾億\n\n7\n00:02:09,509 --> 00:02:37,509\n理論上應該是地方編四十幾億中央的需求是二十幾億但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反他希望中央補他四十幾億這是第一點那第二點明年實際上他現在正在進行的是只有設計所以實際上花不了那個六十幾億所以我們核實下來那我們核實下來我們991應該那我們核實下來那依照分攤比例的話那我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢\n\n8\n00:02:38,630 --> 00:02:42,843\n如果核實來算的話核實來算大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算大概90億\n\n9\n00:02:44,266 --> 00:03:11,363\n那但是我們還是希望多一點讓地方有更多的餘裕所以你說地方政府福報了300億給我們交通部我不會說他是福報概念是這樣子不會不會不會只是說工程在進行的當中有一些經費例如說我剛剛在舉的例子就是台中台中實際上他明年要付的叫做預付款那實際的工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款去給廠商但是他來申請就是這樣申請所以我會希望說他這個部分先不要進行好那我確認一下就是我們\n\n10\n00:03:13,141 --> 00:03:33,474\n預付款也是長期以來的一個政策不然沒有人要來標明沒關係這部分不討論啦這個我想確認一下那所以說因為我們交通部的預算其實也不是我們交通部自己就決定了嘛對不對還是要報行政院嘛我想確認一下那補助地方的這個捷運的地方送了300過來嘛那你說我們最後合了100399那我們合了100嘛那我們實際上報給行政院的是多少\n\n11\n00:03:39,008 --> 00:04:06,461\n我們就是報399你們就報399這樣說399是我們初步先有抓過所以才報去給行政院所以地方政府報399給我們交通部那我們交通部也報了399給行政院應該是他們報來的超過399超過399我們核實之後399我們希望能夠爭取399但是實際上送到行政院我們只有90我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據那剛剛講地方政府總共送多少你們有計算嗎\n\n12\n00:04:09,284 --> 00:04:28,770\n你們有那邊有有表格嗎沒關係我們同仁整理一下好不好我們繼續啊就是說地方政府送了一筆金額那這個金額一定超過399那實際上後來我們這個核實了之後可能不需要這麼多那我們交通部報了399給行政院那最後行政院最後就合了99對就是這樣子吧90億嘛就90億嘛\n\n13\n00:04:32,731 --> 00:05:00,678\n好那好沒關係啦這個合理九十一我想也不是你們交通部的一個責任啦應該是說行政院有去做一個刪減啦我願意有投災後組我們釐清一下這個背景的情況啦那另外想請問一下那因為我們合訂了之後這個地方政府都是依照我們行政院的合訂來送計畫嘛那現在我們行政院刪了補助那請問我們行政院有去找地方政府去調整過這個或者說提修正計畫嗎\n\n14\n00:05:03,309 --> 00:05:20,276\n應該行政院不會找地方政府跟地方政府溝通或者是要求我們交通部找地方政府來提修正計畫照理我認知的程序應該是說如果說我們沒有要依照核定的計畫做補助的話我們應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度\n\n15\n00:05:22,737 --> 00:05:46,768\n但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序然後而是行政院就直接說預算不夠沒關係預算不夠行政院有行政院的說法但是它是不是跳過了這個程序而直接的刪減了地方政府的補助我們對於地方政府的補助目前的比例還沒有調整未來我自己的觀察如果財化法這樣走下去的話未來我們勢必要調整但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整因為目前財化法還在\n\n16\n00:05:47,188 --> 00:06:07,071\n浮動的狀況但明年部分你們還沒有調整的時候就先動了沒有把這個程序走完但是我所了解的應該各個地方政府的需求並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上面有去拖延到進度不會拖延其實這個一年的改變進度不會太拖延但是如果長久改變可能不會\n\n17\n00:06:07,912 --> 00:06:29,892\n不可能說少給錢進入國會變這個東西不可能的嘛明年度其實不會啦我們有跟地方政府對嘛那你明年還有後年嘛這東西總是要提早討論嘛好啦你中央就算真的要砍地方你說因為地方拿了更多的錢地方要負擔更多我覺得這個社會討論社會有公平地方要不要負擔更多這個東西可以討論但是你怎麼行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫的時候\n\n18\n00:06:30,973 --> 00:06:53,862\n而去調整了地方政府的比例我認為這個在程序上面有點過於便宜啦那也對地方政府是比較不公平的一個情況啦那我確認一下我們行政院是針對每一筆的我們整個大筆的經費交通部報上去大筆的去調整還是說整個交通部的框架他直接跟你說我們可能明年交通部的預算要拿掉多少\n\n19\n00:06:54,844 --> 00:07:18,642\n是哪一種概念我們是有分項題上分項題分項題所以它分項檢對應該是但是我們整體的概念我們報了兩千兩百億因為我們明年跟後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期對我們報兩千二我們報兩千二的公共預算的那個公建計畫的部分那目前行政院核給我們是一千一大概只有一半\n\n20\n00:07:18,982 --> 00:07:31,599\n所以說除了軌道建設300億我們還大概還有700建設其實都700左右那想確認一下這個我們被扣了700我們交通部有沒有哪個單位的預算或者是特定的項目補助是增加的增加的喔\n\n21\n00:07:34,414 --> 00:07:53,325\n我看大部分是減少我們明年是不是有補助台鐵一筆這個營運補貼我們在軌道的部分是比過去是增加那為什麼是增加因為我說明年後年大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期所以預算整體來看軌道是有比去年更多\n\n22\n00:07:54,726 --> 00:08:15,539\n有比前一年更多比今年更多但實際上我們的需求還沒有還沒有滿足而以軌道來講的話我們的需求是700億但實際上合下來445億好沒關係這個我就希望啦這個軌道建設其實都是大家非常關注他的公益性也是非常的足夠的那就希望說我們交通部沒關係你們有\n\n23\n00:08:16,860 --> 00:08:43,693\n依照你們的責任報上去那砍的是行政院那我也不會怪到你們身上那這是行政院要去跟地方政府要跟市民大眾去交代的啦那也希望說那我們交通部還是要依照我們的程序該要怎樣的程序才能去動地方政府的補助款也希望說交通部能夠跟行政院來做一個說明怎樣才是依法行政好不好最後一點一分鐘我想確認一下我們現在鐵道法的修法進度就是這個平息天登這個\n\n24\n00:08:45,714 --> 00:09:06,799\n呃為了停機前的或者是特定觀光支線的一個觀光問題這個在進行中也會有一個圓滿的解決目前在哪邊之前鐵道局送到交通部了嘛那交通部目前是法制作業當中現在法制作業這個確定會這麼做確定會改讓大家未來有一個時間區域可以在那邊拍照因為之前我們上個會期最後也是有決議嘛只是說沒關係決議歸決議啦那只要你們有認證在進行我們都是\n\n25\n00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:31,791\n支持不會苛責我們現在就進入法制作業啦法制作業就是確定定案了然後把法制作業流程走完大概就是那你可不可以簡單抓一個時間你們至少你們哪時候可以送到行政院嘛因為鐵道局要送到交通部交通部還要送到行政院後面的事情就不歸你們了嘛對不對那至少哪時候我們交通部抓個時間送到\n\n26\n00:09:33,221 --> 00:09:56,902\n行政院因為這個地方的文化經濟尤其是國際觀光這個時間我回去再對我們要預告預告大概是兩個月預告還有兩個月但是定案了已經定案了還要再走預告預告完之後整個法制作業審查的程序走完大概三個月左右的時間因為這個地方的文化觀光\n\n27\n00:09:57,583 --> 00:10:22,076\n的形塑不容易那現在已經沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個在鐵道上面放天燈的一個行為了那現在如果說外國的觀光客已經知道這件事情你以後就算再開放如果你這個空窗期太久了你以後你要重新再去推銷要再去喚起大家對這件事情的一個嚮往或者重視相對起來你要花費更多的一個成本那既然我們行政作業能夠快的部分那就再繼續拜託我們部長好拜託我們同仁好謝謝好沒問題謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4588\t5617\t謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們陳部長部長請\n16331\t42615\t部長早安 這個我們全台灣的捷運的建設那已經經過行政院核定要動工的要興建的在115年度的部分這個地方政府都有哀嚎就是補助大砍那我想確認一下就是我們每年可能在114今年114年的時候都會各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到我們交通部來我想先\n43355\t48739\t確認一下114我們全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少114年就是114年送115的就是送明年他們要申請多少的總額114年是不是385億\n62506\t81697\t就是明年啦 就是明年他們地方政府總統跟我們交通部申請你說明年啦 他們申請的部分是399億399億全部地方政府送的是399億嘛 明年的需求是399億那我們實際上我們交通部核定多少我們今年核定90億所以就是399大概400億嘛 然後就核100億\n85819\t100442\t那有沒有哪一個地方政府他是沒有依照因為我們在行政院核定的時候也大概都會有一個分期分年度的一個進度然後他可能再依照實際的公敬來申請那有沒有地方政府他的提出的需求可能是我們認為\n101463\t128449\t他有福報的一個情況或者說超過他的需求然後超過他的比例的這樣的情況實際上大家申請的數額都會比較高一點但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點我舉個例子啦例如說以台中市來說台中市應該中央跟地方的比例的分配是五五對四五那他本來寫出來的明年的需求是六十幾億\n129509\t157509\t理論上應該是地方編四十幾億中央的需求是二十幾億但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反他希望中央補他四十幾億這是第一點那第二點明年實際上他現在正在進行的是只有設計所以實際上花不了那個六十幾億所以我們核實下來那我們核實下來我們991應該那我們核實下來那依照分攤比例的話那我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢\n158630\t162843\t如果核實來算的話核實來算大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算大概90億\n164266\t191363\t那但是我們還是希望多一點讓地方有更多的餘裕所以你說地方政府福報了300億給我們交通部我不會說他是福報概念是這樣子不會不會不會只是說工程在進行的當中有一些經費例如說我剛剛在舉的例子就是台中台中實際上他明年要付的叫做預付款那實際的工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款去給廠商但是他來申請就是這樣申請所以我會希望說他這個部分先不要進行好那我確認一下就是我們\n193141\t213474\t預付款也是長期以來的一個政策不然沒有人要來標明沒關係這部分不討論啦這個我想確認一下那所以說因為我們交通部的預算其實也不是我們交通部自己就決定了嘛對不對還是要報行政院嘛我想確認一下那補助地方的這個捷運的地方送了300過來嘛那你說我們最後合了100399那我們合了100嘛那我們實際上報給行政院的是多少\n219008\t246461\t我們就是報399你們就報399這樣說399是我們初步先有抓過所以才報去給行政院所以地方政府報399給我們交通部那我們交通部也報了399給行政院應該是他們報來的超過399超過399我們核實之後399我們希望能夠爭取399但是實際上送到行政院我們只有90我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據那剛剛講地方政府總共送多少你們有計算嗎\n249284\t268770\t你們有那邊有有表格嗎沒關係我們同仁整理一下好不好我們繼續啊就是說地方政府送了一筆金額那這個金額一定超過399那實際上後來我們這個核實了之後可能不需要這麼多那我們交通部報了399給行政院那最後行政院最後就合了99對就是這樣子吧90億嘛就90億嘛\n272731\t300678\t好那好沒關係啦這個合理九十一我想也不是你們交通部的一個責任啦應該是說行政院有去做一個刪減啦我願意有投災後組我們釐清一下這個背景的情況啦那另外想請問一下那因為我們合訂了之後這個地方政府都是依照我們行政院的合訂來送計畫嘛那現在我們行政院刪了補助那請問我們行政院有去找地方政府去調整過這個或者說提修正計畫嗎\n303309\t320276\t應該行政院不會找地方政府跟地方政府溝通或者是要求我們交通部找地方政府來提修正計畫照理我認知的程序應該是說如果說我們沒有要依照核定的計畫做補助的話我們應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度\n322737\t346768\t但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序然後而是行政院就直接說預算不夠沒關係預算不夠行政院有行政院的說法但是它是不是跳過了這個程序而直接的刪減了地方政府的補助我們對於地方政府的補助目前的比例還沒有調整未來我自己的觀察如果財化法這樣走下去的話未來我們勢必要調整但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整因為目前財化法還在\n347188\t367071\t浮動的狀況但明年部分你們還沒有調整的時候就先動了沒有把這個程序走完但是我所了解的應該各個地方政府的需求並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上面有去拖延到進度不會拖延其實這個一年的改變進度不會太拖延但是如果長久改變可能不會\n367912\t389892\t不可能說少給錢進入國會變這個東西不可能的嘛明年度其實不會啦我們有跟地方政府對嘛那你明年還有後年嘛這東西總是要提早討論嘛好啦你中央就算真的要砍地方你說因為地方拿了更多的錢地方要負擔更多我覺得這個社會討論社會有公平地方要不要負擔更多這個東西可以討論但是你怎麼行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫的時候\n390973\t413862\t而去調整了地方政府的比例我認為這個在程序上面有點過於便宜啦那也對地方政府是比較不公平的一個情況啦那我確認一下我們行政院是針對每一筆的我們整個大筆的經費交通部報上去大筆的去調整還是說整個交通部的框架他直接跟你說我們可能明年交通部的預算要拿掉多少\n414844\t438642\t是哪一種概念我們是有分項題上分項題分項題所以它分項檢對 應該是但是我們整體的概念我們報了兩千兩百億因為我們明年跟後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期對 我們報兩千二我們報兩千二的公共預算的那個公建計畫的部分那目前行政院核給我們是一千一大概只有一半\n438982\t451599\t所以說除了軌道建設300億我們還大概還有700建設其實都700左右那想確認一下這個我們被扣了700我們交通部有沒有哪個單位的預算或者是特定的項目補助是增加的增加的喔\n454414\t473325\t我看大部分是減少我們明年是不是有補助台鐵一筆這個營運補貼我們在軌道的部分是比過去是增加那為什麼是增加因為我說明年後年大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期所以預算整體來看軌道是有比去年更多\n474726\t495539\t有比前一年更多比今年更多但實際上我們的需求還沒有還沒有滿足而以軌道來講的話我們的需求是700億但實際上合下來445億好沒關係這個我就希望啦這個軌道建設其實都是大家非常關注他的公益性也是非常的足夠的那就希望說我們交通部沒關係你們有\n496860\t523693\t依照你們的責任報上去那砍的是行政院那我也不會怪到你們身上那這是行政院要去跟地方政府要跟市民大眾去交代的啦那也希望說那我們交通部還是要依照我們的程序該要怎樣的程序才能去動地方政府的補助款也希望說交通部能夠跟行政院來做一個說明怎樣才是依法行政好不好最後一點一分鐘我想確認一下我們現在鐵道法的修法進度就是這個平息天登這個\n525714\t546799\t呃 為了停機前的或者是特定觀光支線的一個觀光問題這個在進行中也會有一個圓滿的解決目前在哪邊 之前鐵道局送到交通部了嘛那交通部目前是 法制作業當中現在法制作業 這個確定會這麼做確定會改 讓大家未來有一個時間區域可以在那邊拍照因為之前我們上個會期最後也是有決議嘛 只是說沒關係 決議歸決議啦 那只要你們有認證在進行我們都是\n550520\t571791\t支持不會苛責我們現在就進入法制作業啦法制作業就是確定定案了然後把法制作業流程走完大概就是那你可不可以簡單抓一個時間你們至少你們哪時候可以送到行政院嘛因為鐵道局要送到交通部交通部還要送到行政院後面的事情就不歸你們了嘛對不對那至少哪時候我們交通部抓個時間送到\n573221\t596902\t行政院因為這個地方的文化經濟尤其是國際觀光這個時間我回去再對我們要預告預告大概是兩個月預告還有兩個月但是定案了已經定案了還要再走預告預告完之後整個法制作業審查的程序走完大概三個月左右的時間因為這個地方的文化觀光\n597583\t622076\t的形塑不容易那現在已經沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個在鐵道上面放天燈的一個行為了那現在如果說外國的觀光客已經知道這件事情你以後就算再開放如果你這個空窗期太久了你以後你要重新再去推銷要再去喚起大家對這件事情的一個嚮往或者重視相對起來你要花費更多的一個成本那既然我們行政作業能夠快的部分那就再繼續拜託我們部長好 拜託我們同仁好 謝謝好 沒問題 謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們陳部長部長請\n部長早安 這個我們全台灣的捷運的建設那已經經過行政院核定要動工的要興建的在115年度的部分這個地方政府都有哀嚎就是補助大砍那我想確認一下就是我們每年可能在114今年114年的時候都會各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到我們交通部來我想先\n確認一下114我們全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少114年就是114年送115的就是送明年他們要申請多少的總額114年是不是385億\n就是明年啦 就是明年他們地方政府總統跟我們交通部申請你說明年啦 他們申請的部分是399億399億全部地方政府送的是399億嘛 明年的需求是399億那我們實際上我們交通部核定多少我們今年核定90億所以就是399大概400億嘛 然後就核100億\n那有沒有哪一個地方政府他是沒有依照因為我們在行政院核定的時候也大概都會有一個分期分年度的一個進度然後他可能再依照實際的公敬來申請那有沒有地方政府他的提出的需求可能是我們認為\n他有福報的一個情況或者說超過他的需求然後超過他的比例的這樣的情況實際上大家申請的數額都會比較高一點但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點我舉個例子啦例如說以台中市來說台中市應該中央跟地方的比例的分配是五五對四五那他本來寫出來的明年的需求是六十幾億\n理論上應該是地方編四十幾億中央的需求是二十幾億但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反他希望中央補他四十幾億這是第一點那第二點明年實際上他現在正在進行的是只有設計所以實際上花不了那個六十幾億所以我們核實下來那我們核實下來我們991應該那我們核實下來那依照分攤比例的話那我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢\n如果核實來算的話核實來算大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算大概90億\n那但是我們還是希望多一點讓地方有更多的餘裕所以你說地方政府福報了300億給我們交通部我不會說他是福報概念是這樣子不會不會不會只是說工程在進行的當中有一些經費例如說我剛剛在舉的例子就是台中台中實際上他明年要付的叫做預付款那實際的工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款去給廠商但是他來申請就是這樣申請所以我會希望說他這個部分先不要進行好那我確認一下就是我們\n預付款也是長期以來的一個政策不然沒有人要來標明沒關係這部分不討論啦這個我想確認一下那所以說因為我們交通部的預算其實也不是我們交通部自己就決定了嘛對不對還是要報行政院嘛我想確認一下那補助地方的這個捷運的地方送了300過來嘛那你說我們最後合了100399那我們合了100嘛那我們實際上報給行政院的是多少\n我們就是報399你們就報399這樣說399是我們初步先有抓過所以才報去給行政院所以地方政府報399給我們交通部那我們交通部也報了399給行政院應該是他們報來的超過399超過399我們核實之後399我們希望能夠爭取399但是實際上送到行政院我們只有90我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據那剛剛講地方政府總共送多少你們有計算嗎\n你們有那邊有有表格嗎沒關係我們同仁整理一下好不好我們繼續啊就是說地方政府送了一筆金額那這個金額一定超過399那實際上後來我們這個核實了之後可能不需要這麼多那我們交通部報了399給行政院那最後行政院最後就合了99對就是這樣子吧90億嘛就90億嘛\n好那好沒關係啦這個合理九十一我想也不是你們交通部的一個責任啦應該是說行政院有去做一個刪減啦我願意有投災後組我們釐清一下這個背景的情況啦那另外想請問一下那因為我們合訂了之後這個地方政府都是依照我們行政院的合訂來送計畫嘛那現在我們行政院刪了補助那請問我們行政院有去找地方政府去調整過這個或者說提修正計畫嗎\n應該行政院不會找地方政府跟地方政府溝通或者是要求我們交通部找地方政府來提修正計畫照理我認知的程序應該是說如果說我們沒有要依照核定的計畫做補助的話我們應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度\n但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序然後而是行政院就直接說預算不夠沒關係預算不夠行政院有行政院的說法但是它是不是跳過了這個程序而直接的刪減了地方政府的補助我們對於地方政府的補助目前的比例還沒有調整未來我自己的觀察如果財化法這樣走下去的話未來我們勢必要調整但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整因為目前財化法還在\n浮動的狀況但明年部分你們還沒有調整的時候就先動了沒有把這個程序走完但是我所了解的應該各個地方政府的需求並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上面有去拖延到進度不會拖延其實這個一年的改變進度不會太拖延但是如果長久改變可能不會\n不可能說少給錢進入國會變這個東西不可能的嘛明年度其實不會啦我們有跟地方政府對嘛那你明年還有後年嘛這東西總是要提早討論嘛好啦你中央就算真的要砍地方你說因為地方拿了更多的錢地方要負擔更多我覺得這個社會討論社會有公平地方要不要負擔更多這個東西可以討論但是你怎麼行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫的時候\n而去調整了地方政府的比例我認為這個在程序上面有點過於便宜啦那也對地方政府是比較不公平的一個情況啦那我確認一下我們行政院是針對每一筆的我們整個大筆的經費交通部報上去大筆的去調整還是說整個交通部的框架他直接跟你說我們可能明年交通部的預算要拿掉多少\n是哪一種概念我們是有分項題上分項題分項題所以它分項檢對 應該是但是我們整體的概念我們報了兩千兩百億因為我們明年跟後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期對 我們報兩千二我們報兩千二的公共預算的那個公建計畫的部分那目前行政院核給我們是一千一大概只有一半\n所以說除了軌道建設300億我們還大概還有700建設其實都700左右那想確認一下這個我們被扣了700我們交通部有沒有哪個單位的預算或者是特定的項目補助是增加的增加的喔\n我看大部分是減少我們明年是不是有補助台鐵一筆這個營運補貼我們在軌道的部分是比過去是增加那為什麼是增加因為我說明年後年大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期所以預算整體來看軌道是有比去年更多\n有比前一年更多比今年更多但實際上我們的需求還沒有還沒有滿足而以軌道來講的話我們的需求是700億但實際上合下來445億好沒關係這個我就希望啦這個軌道建設其實都是大家非常關注他的公益性也是非常的足夠的那就希望說我們交通部沒關係你們有\n依照你們的責任報上去那砍的是行政院那我也不會怪到你們身上那這是行政院要去跟地方政府要跟市民大眾去交代的啦那也希望說那我們交通部還是要依照我們的程序該要怎樣的程序才能去動地方政府的補助款也希望說交通部能夠跟行政院來做一個說明怎樣才是依法行政好不好最後一點一分鐘我想確認一下我們現在鐵道法的修法進度就是這個平息天登這個\n呃 為了停機前的或者是特定觀光支線的一個觀光問題這個在進行中也會有一個圓滿的解決目前在哪邊 之前鐵道局送到交通部了嘛那交通部目前是 法制作業當中現在法制作業 這個確定會這麼做確定會改 讓大家未來有一個時間區域可以在那邊拍照因為之前我們上個會期最後也是有決議嘛 只是說沒關係 決議歸決議啦 那只要你們有認證在進行我們都是\n支持不會苛責我們現在就進入法制作業啦法制作業就是確定定案了然後把法制作業流程走完大概就是那你可不可以簡單抓一個時間你們至少你們哪時候可以送到行政院嘛因為鐵道局要送到交通部交通部還要送到行政院後面的事情就不歸你們了嘛對不對那至少哪時候我們交通部抓個時間送到\n行政院因為這個地方的文化經濟尤其是國際觀光這個時間我回去再對我們要預告預告大概是兩個月預告還有兩個月但是定案了已經定案了還要再走預告預告完之後整個法制作業審查的程序走完大概三個月左右的時間因為這個地方的文化觀光\n的形塑不容易那現在已經沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個在鐵道上面放天燈的一個行為了那現在如果說外國的觀光客已經知道這件事情你以後就算再開放如果你這個空窗期太久了你以後你要重新再去推銷要再去喚起大家對這件事情的一個嚮往或者重視相對起來你要花費更多的一個成本那既然我們行政作業能夠快的部分那就再繼續拜託我們部長好 拜託我們同仁好 謝謝好 沒問題 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.588 --> 00:05.617\n謝謝主席麻煩邀請我們陳部長部長請\n\n00:16.331 --> 00:42.615\n部長早安這個我們全台灣的捷運的建設那已經經過行政院核定要動工的要興建的在115年度的部分這個地方政府都有哀嚎就是補助大砍那我想確認一下就是我們每年可能在114今年114年的時候都會各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到我們交通部來我想先\n\n00:43.355 --> 00:48.739\n確認一下114我們全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少114年就是114年送115的就是送明年他們要申請多少的總額114年是不是385億\n\n01:02.506 --> 01:21.697\n就是明年啦就是明年他們地方政府總統跟我們交通部申請你說明年啦他們申請的部分是399億399億全部地方政府送的是399億嘛明年的需求是399億那我們實際上我們交通部核定多少我們今年核定90億所以就是399大概400億嘛然後就核100億\n\n01:25.819 --> 01:40.442\n那有沒有哪一個地方政府他是沒有依照因為我們在行政院核定的時候也大概都會有一個分期分年度的一個進度然後他可能再依照實際的公敬來申請那有沒有地方政府他的提出的需求可能是我們認為\n\n01:41.463 --> 02:08.449\n他有福報的一個情況或者說超過他的需求然後超過他的比例的這樣的情況實際上大家申請的數額都會比較高一點但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點我舉個例子啦例如說以台中市來說台中市應該中央跟地方的比例的分配是五五對四五那他本來寫出來的明年的需求是六十幾億\n\n02:09.509 --> 02:37.509\n理論上應該是地方編四十幾億中央的需求是二十幾億但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反他希望中央補他四十幾億這是第一點那第二點明年實際上他現在正在進行的是只有設計所以實際上花不了那個六十幾億所以我們核實下來那我們核實下來我們991應該那我們核實下來那依照分攤比例的話那我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢\n\n02:38.630 --> 02:42.843\n如果核實來算的話核實來算大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算大概90億\n\n02:44.266 --> 03:11.363\n那但是我們還是希望多一點讓地方有更多的餘裕所以你說地方政府福報了300億給我們交通部我不會說他是福報概念是這樣子不會不會不會只是說工程在進行的當中有一些經費例如說我剛剛在舉的例子就是台中台中實際上他明年要付的叫做預付款那實際的工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款去給廠商但是他來申請就是這樣申請所以我會希望說他這個部分先不要進行好那我確認一下就是我們\n\n03:13.141 --> 03:33.474\n預付款也是長期以來的一個政策不然沒有人要來標明沒關係這部分不討論啦這個我想確認一下那所以說因為我們交通部的預算其實也不是我們交通部自己就決定了嘛對不對還是要報行政院嘛我想確認一下那補助地方的這個捷運的地方送了300過來嘛那你說我們最後合了100399那我們合了100嘛那我們實際上報給行政院的是多少\n\n03:39.008 --> 04:06.461\n我們就是報399你們就報399這樣說399是我們初步先有抓過所以才報去給行政院所以地方政府報399給我們交通部那我們交通部也報了399給行政院應該是他們報來的超過399超過399我們核實之後399我們希望能夠爭取399但是實際上送到行政院我們只有90我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據那剛剛講地方政府總共送多少你們有計算嗎\n\n04:09.284 --> 04:28.770\n你們有那邊有有表格嗎沒關係我們同仁整理一下好不好我們繼續啊就是說地方政府送了一筆金額那這個金額一定超過399那實際上後來我們這個核實了之後可能不需要這麼多那我們交通部報了399給行政院那最後行政院最後就合了99對就是這樣子吧90億嘛就90億嘛\n\n04:32.731 --> 05:00.678\n好那好沒關係啦這個合理九十一我想也不是你們交通部的一個責任啦應該是說行政院有去做一個刪減啦我願意有投災後組我們釐清一下這個背景的情況啦那另外想請問一下那因為我們合訂了之後這個地方政府都是依照我們行政院的合訂來送計畫嘛那現在我們行政院刪了補助那請問我們行政院有去找地方政府去調整過這個或者說提修正計畫嗎\n\n05:03.309 --> 05:20.276\n應該行政院不會找地方政府跟地方政府溝通或者是要求我們交通部找地方政府來提修正計畫照理我認知的程序應該是說如果說我們沒有要依照核定的計畫做補助的話我們應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度\n\n05:22.737 --> 05:46.768\n但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序然後而是行政院就直接說預算不夠沒關係預算不夠行政院有行政院的說法但是它是不是跳過了這個程序而直接的刪減了地方政府的補助我們對於地方政府的補助目前的比例還沒有調整未來我自己的觀察如果財化法這樣走下去的話未來我們勢必要調整但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整因為目前財化法還在\n\n05:47.188 --> 06:07.071\n浮動的狀況但明年部分你們還沒有調整的時候就先動了沒有把這個程序走完但是我所了解的應該各個地方政府的需求並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上面有去拖延到進度不會拖延其實這個一年的改變進度不會太拖延但是如果長久改變可能不會\n\n06:07.912 --> 06:29.892\n不可能說少給錢進入國會變這個東西不可能的嘛明年度其實不會啦我們有跟地方政府對嘛那你明年還有後年嘛這東西總是要提早討論嘛好啦你中央就算真的要砍地方你說因為地方拿了更多的錢地方要負擔更多我覺得這個社會討論社會有公平地方要不要負擔更多這個東西可以討論但是你怎麼行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫的時候\n\n06:30.973 --> 06:53.862\n而去調整了地方政府的比例我認為這個在程序上面有點過於便宜啦那也對地方政府是比較不公平的一個情況啦那我確認一下我們行政院是針對每一筆的我們整個大筆的經費交通部報上去大筆的去調整還是說整個交通部的框架他直接跟你說我們可能明年交通部的預算要拿掉多少\n\n06:54.844 --> 07:18.642\n是哪一種概念我們是有分項題上分項題分項題所以它分項檢對應該是但是我們整體的概念我們報了兩千兩百億因為我們明年跟後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期對我們報兩千二我們報兩千二的公共預算的那個公建計畫的部分那目前行政院核給我們是一千一大概只有一半\n\n07:18.982 --> 07:31.599\n所以說除了軌道建設300億我們還大概還有700建設其實都700左右那想確認一下這個我們被扣了700我們交通部有沒有哪個單位的預算或者是特定的項目補助是增加的增加的喔\n\n07:34.414 --> 07:53.325\n我看大部分是減少我們明年是不是有補助台鐵一筆這個營運補貼我們在軌道的部分是比過去是增加那為什麼是增加因為我說明年後年大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期所以預算整體來看軌道是有比去年更多\n\n07:54.726 --> 08:15.539\n有比前一年更多比今年更多但實際上我們的需求還沒有還沒有滿足而以軌道來講的話我們的需求是700億但實際上合下來445億好沒關係這個我就希望啦這個軌道建設其實都是大家非常關注他的公益性也是非常的足夠的那就希望說我們交通部沒關係你們有\n\n08:16.860 --> 08:43.693\n依照你們的責任報上去那砍的是行政院那我也不會怪到你們身上那這是行政院要去跟地方政府要跟市民大眾去交代的啦那也希望說那我們交通部還是要依照我們的程序該要怎樣的程序才能去動地方政府的補助款也希望說交通部能夠跟行政院來做一個說明怎樣才是依法行政好不好最後一點一分鐘我想確認一下我們現在鐵道法的修法進度就是這個平息天登這個\n\n08:45.714 --> 09:06.799\n呃為了停機前的或者是特定觀光支線的一個觀光問題這個在進行中也會有一個圓滿的解決目前在哪邊之前鐵道局送到交通部了嘛那交通部目前是法制作業當中現在法制作業這個確定會這麼做確定會改讓大家未來有一個時間區域可以在那邊拍照因為之前我們上個會期最後也是有決議嘛只是說沒關係決議歸決議啦那只要你們有認證在進行我們都是\n\n09:10.520 --> 09:31.791\n支持不會苛責我們現在就進入法制作業啦法制作業就是確定定案了然後把法制作業流程走完大概就是那你可不可以簡單抓一個時間你們至少你們哪時候可以送到行政院嘛因為鐵道局要送到交通部交通部還要送到行政院後面的事情就不歸你們了嘛對不對那至少哪時候我們交通部抓個時間送到\n\n09:33.221 --> 09:56.902\n行政院因為這個地方的文化經濟尤其是國際觀光這個時間我回去再對我們要預告預告大概是兩個月預告還有兩個月但是定案了已經定案了還要再走預告預告完之後整個法制作業審查的程序走完大概三個月左右的時間因為這個地方的文化觀光\n\n09:57.583 --> 10:22.076\n的形塑不容易那現在已經沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個在鐵道上面放天燈的一個行為了那現在如果說外國的觀光客已經知道這件事情你以後就算再開放如果你這個空窗期太久了你以後你要重新再去推銷要再去喚起大家對這件事情的一個嚮往或者重視相對起來你要花費更多的一個成本那既然我們行政作業能夠快的部分那就再繼續拜託我們部長好拜託我們同仁好謝謝好沒問題謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.588,"end":5.617,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們陳部長部長請"},{"start":16.331,"end":42.615,"text":"部長早安 這個我們全台灣的捷運的建設那已經經過行政院核定要動工的要興建的在115年度的部分這個地方政府都有哀嚎就是補助大砍那我想確認一下就是我們每年可能在114今年114年的時候都會各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到我們交通部來我想先"},{"start":43.355,"end":48.739,"text":"確認一下114我們全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少114年就是114年送115的就是送明年他們要申請多少的總額114年是不是385億"},{"start":62.506,"end":81.697,"text":"就是明年啦 就是明年他們地方政府總統跟我們交通部申請你說明年啦 他們申請的部分是399億399億全部地方政府送的是399億嘛 明年的需求是399億那我們實際上我們交通部核定多少我們今年核定90億所以就是399大概400億嘛 然後就核100億"},{"start":85.819,"end":100.442,"text":"那有沒有哪一個地方政府他是沒有依照因為我們在行政院核定的時候也大概都會有一個分期分年度的一個進度然後他可能再依照實際的公敬來申請那有沒有地方政府他的提出的需求可能是我們認為"},{"start":101.463,"end":128.449,"text":"他有福報的一個情況或者說超過他的需求然後超過他的比例的這樣的情況實際上大家申請的數額都會比較高一點但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點我舉個例子啦例如說以台中市來說台中市應該中央跟地方的比例的分配是五五對四五那他本來寫出來的明年的需求是六十幾億"},{"start":129.509,"end":157.509,"text":"理論上應該是地方編四十幾億中央的需求是二十幾億但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反他希望中央補他四十幾億這是第一點那第二點明年實際上他現在正在進行的是只有設計所以實際上花不了那個六十幾億所以我們核實下來那我們核實下來我們991應該那我們核實下來那依照分攤比例的話那我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢"},{"start":158.63,"end":162.843,"text":"如果核實來算的話核實來算大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算大概90億"},{"start":164.266,"end":191.363,"text":"那但是我們還是希望多一點讓地方有更多的餘裕所以你說地方政府福報了300億給我們交通部我不會說他是福報概念是這樣子不會不會不會只是說工程在進行的當中有一些經費例如說我剛剛在舉的例子就是台中台中實際上他明年要付的叫做預付款那實際的工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款去給廠商但是他來申請就是這樣申請所以我會希望說他這個部分先不要進行好那我確認一下就是我們"},{"start":193.141,"end":213.474,"text":"預付款也是長期以來的一個政策不然沒有人要來標明沒關係這部分不討論啦這個我想確認一下那所以說因為我們交通部的預算其實也不是我們交通部自己就決定了嘛對不對還是要報行政院嘛我想確認一下那補助地方的這個捷運的地方送了300過來嘛那你說我們最後合了100399那我們合了100嘛那我們實際上報給行政院的是多少"},{"start":219.008,"end":246.461,"text":"我們就是報399你們就報399這樣說399是我們初步先有抓過所以才報去給行政院所以地方政府報399給我們交通部那我們交通部也報了399給行政院應該是他們報來的超過399超過399我們核實之後399我們希望能夠爭取399但是實際上送到行政院我們只有90我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據那剛剛講地方政府總共送多少你們有計算嗎"},{"start":249.284,"end":268.77,"text":"你們有那邊有有表格嗎沒關係我們同仁整理一下好不好我們繼續啊就是說地方政府送了一筆金額那這個金額一定超過399那實際上後來我們這個核實了之後可能不需要這麼多那我們交通部報了399給行政院那最後行政院最後就合了99對就是這樣子吧90億嘛就90億嘛"},{"start":272.731,"end":300.678,"text":"好那好沒關係啦這個合理九十一我想也不是你們交通部的一個責任啦應該是說行政院有去做一個刪減啦我願意有投災後組我們釐清一下這個背景的情況啦那另外想請問一下那因為我們合訂了之後這個地方政府都是依照我們行政院的合訂來送計畫嘛那現在我們行政院刪了補助那請問我們行政院有去找地方政府去調整過這個或者說提修正計畫嗎"},{"start":303.309,"end":320.276,"text":"應該行政院不會找地方政府跟地方政府溝通或者是要求我們交通部找地方政府來提修正計畫照理我認知的程序應該是說如果說我們沒有要依照核定的計畫做補助的話我們應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度"},{"start":322.737,"end":346.768,"text":"但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序然後而是行政院就直接說預算不夠沒關係預算不夠行政院有行政院的說法但是它是不是跳過了這個程序而直接的刪減了地方政府的補助我們對於地方政府的補助目前的比例還沒有調整未來我自己的觀察如果財化法這樣走下去的話未來我們勢必要調整但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整因為目前財化法還在"},{"start":347.188,"end":367.071,"text":"浮動的狀況但明年部分你們還沒有調整的時候就先動了沒有把這個程序走完但是我所了解的應該各個地方政府的需求並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上面有去拖延到進度不會拖延其實這個一年的改變進度不會太拖延但是如果長久改變可能不會"},{"start":367.912,"end":389.892,"text":"不可能說少給錢進入國會變這個東西不可能的嘛明年度其實不會啦我們有跟地方政府對嘛那你明年還有後年嘛這東西總是要提早討論嘛好啦你中央就算真的要砍地方你說因為地方拿了更多的錢地方要負擔更多我覺得這個社會討論社會有公平地方要不要負擔更多這個東西可以討論但是你怎麼行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫的時候"},{"start":390.973,"end":413.862,"text":"而去調整了地方政府的比例我認為這個在程序上面有點過於便宜啦那也對地方政府是比較不公平的一個情況啦那我確認一下我們行政院是針對每一筆的我們整個大筆的經費交通部報上去大筆的去調整還是說整個交通部的框架他直接跟你說我們可能明年交通部的預算要拿掉多少"},{"start":414.844,"end":438.642,"text":"是哪一種概念我們是有分項題上分項題分項題所以它分項檢對 應該是但是我們整體的概念我們報了兩千兩百億因為我們明年跟後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期對 我們報兩千二我們報兩千二的公共預算的那個公建計畫的部分那目前行政院核給我們是一千一大概只有一半"},{"start":438.982,"end":451.599,"text":"所以說除了軌道建設300億我們還大概還有700建設其實都700左右那想確認一下這個我們被扣了700我們交通部有沒有哪個單位的預算或者是特定的項目補助是增加的增加的喔"},{"start":454.414,"end":473.325,"text":"我看大部分是減少我們明年是不是有補助台鐵一筆這個營運補貼我們在軌道的部分是比過去是增加那為什麼是增加因為我說明年後年大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期所以預算整體來看軌道是有比去年更多"},{"start":474.726,"end":495.539,"text":"有比前一年更多比今年更多但實際上我們的需求還沒有還沒有滿足而以軌道來講的話我們的需求是700億但實際上合下來445億好沒關係這個我就希望啦這個軌道建設其實都是大家非常關注他的公益性也是非常的足夠的那就希望說我們交通部沒關係你們有"},{"start":496.86,"end":523.693,"text":"依照你們的責任報上去那砍的是行政院那我也不會怪到你們身上那這是行政院要去跟地方政府要跟市民大眾去交代的啦那也希望說那我們交通部還是要依照我們的程序該要怎樣的程序才能去動地方政府的補助款也希望說交通部能夠跟行政院來做一個說明怎樣才是依法行政好不好最後一點一分鐘我想確認一下我們現在鐵道法的修法進度就是這個平息天登這個"},{"start":525.714,"end":546.799,"text":"呃 為了停機前的或者是特定觀光支線的一個觀光問題這個在進行中也會有一個圓滿的解決目前在哪邊 之前鐵道局送到交通部了嘛那交通部目前是 法制作業當中現在法制作業 這個確定會這麼做確定會改 讓大家未來有一個時間區域可以在那邊拍照因為之前我們上個會期最後也是有決議嘛 只是說沒關係 決議歸決議啦 那只要你們有認證在進行我們都是"},{"start":550.52,"end":571.791,"text":"支持不會苛責我們現在就進入法制作業啦法制作業就是確定定案了然後把法制作業流程走完大概就是那你可不可以簡單抓一個時間你們至少你們哪時候可以送到行政院嘛因為鐵道局要送到交通部交通部還要送到行政院後面的事情就不歸你們了嘛對不對那至少哪時候我們交通部抓個時間送到"},{"start":573.221,"end":596.902,"text":"行政院因為這個地方的文化經濟尤其是國際觀光這個時間我回去再對我們要預告預告大概是兩個月預告還有兩個月但是定案了已經定案了還要再走預告預告完之後整個法制作業審查的程序走完大概三個月左右的時間因為這個地方的文化觀光"},{"start":597.583,"end":622.076,"text":"的形塑不容易那現在已經沒有辦法去做這樣子的一個在鐵道上面放天燈的一個行為了那現在如果說外國的觀光客已經知道這件事情你以後就算再開放如果你這個空窗期太久了你以後你要重新再去推銷要再去喚起大家對這件事情的一個嚮往或者重視相對起來你要花費更多的一個成本那既然我們行政作業能夠快的部分那就再繼續拜託我們部長好 拜託我們同仁好 謝謝好 沒問題 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩邀請陳部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長早安。全臺灣捷運的建設已經經過行政院核定要動工、要興建的，115年度的部分，地方政府都哀號，因為補助大砍。我想確認一下，在今（114）年的時候，各地方政府都會提交要申請115年度的預算到交通部，我想先確認一下，114年全臺灣所有的縣市政府申請的總額度是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：114年？"],["廖委員先翔：114年送115年，就是明年地方政府總共要跟交通部申請多少？"],["陳部長世凱：明年他們申請的部分是399億。"],["廖委員先翔：全部地方政府送的是399億？"],["陳部長世凱：對，明年的需求是399億。"],["廖委員先翔：實際上交通部核定多少？"],["陳部長世凱：我們今年核定90億。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是399億，大概四百億，然後核將近100億？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：因為在行政院核定的時候，大概都會有一個分期、分年度的進度，他們可能再依照實際的工進申請。有沒有地方政府提出的需求，可能我們認為他有浮報的情況，或者超過他的需求、超過他的比例這樣的情況？"],["陳部長世凱：實際上，大家申請的數額都會比較高一點，但是我們核實之後的數額會相對低一點。我舉個例子，例如以臺中市來說，臺中市中央跟地方比例的分配應該是55%對45%，他本來寫明年需求是六十幾億，理論上應該是地方編四十幾億，中央的需求是二十幾億，但是他給我們的數據剛好是相反的，他希望中央補他四十幾億，這是第一點。","第二點，現在正在進行的只有設計，所以實際上花不了六十幾億，所以我們核實下來只有一點多億。"],["廖委員先翔：如果核實來算的話，依照分攤比例，我們大概明年應該要補助地方政府多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：核實來算，大概就是我們現在所編的這個預算，大概90億。"],["廖委員先翔：你確定？"],["陳部長世凱：但是我們還是希望多一點，讓地方有更多的餘裕……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你說地方政府浮報了300億給交通部？"],["陳部長世凱：我不會說他浮報，不會、不會。只是工程在進行當中有一些經費，例如說，我剛剛在舉的例子就是臺中，臺中實際上明年要付的叫做預付款，實際工程的進行不需要拿幾十億的預付款給廠商，但是他來申請就是這樣申請，所以我們會希望說他這個部分先不要進行。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我確認一下……預付款是長期以來的一個政策，不然沒有人要來標，沒關係，這部分不討論。"],["陳部長世凱：不會、不會。"],["廖委員先翔：我想確認一下，因為交通部的預算其實也不是交通部自己就決定了嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：我們要看主總核多少下來給我們。"],["廖委員先翔：還是要報行政院！我想確認一下，補助地方捷運這部分，地方送了399過來，你說最後核了100，那你們實際上報給行政院的是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：就是報399。"],["廖委員先翔：你們就報399？"],["陳部長世凱：這樣說啦！399是我們初步先抓過的數字，然後才報給行政院……"],["廖委員先翔：所以地方政府報399給交通部，交通部也報了399給行政院？"],["陳部長世凱：他們報來的應該是超過399。"],["廖委員先翔：超過399？"],["陳部長世凱：超過399，我們核實之後是399……"],["廖委員先翔：對嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望能夠爭取399，但實際上送到行政院後只有90……"],["廖委員先翔：我們就討論一個客觀的統計數據，剛剛講的地方政府總共送多少，你們有計算嗎？沒關係，請同仁先整理一下，我們繼續。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再後補，沒問題。"],["廖委員先翔：就是地方政府送出一筆金額，這個金額一定超過399，後來核實之後，可能不需要這麼多，所以交通部報了399給行政院，最後行政院核定99，就這樣吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是90億。"],["廖委員先翔：就90億，好，沒關係，我想核定90億也不是交通部的責任，應該是行政院有做刪減，所謂冤有頭，債有主，我們先釐清這個背景情況。"],["陳部長世凱：是，是。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，地方政府依照行政院的核定送出計畫，現在行政院刪了補助款，請問，行政院之前有去找地方政府調整過計畫內容或提修正計畫嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：行政院應該不會找地方政府，跟地方政府的溝通……"],["廖委員先翔：或者是要求交通部找地方政府提修正計畫？依據我所認知的程序，照理行政院如果沒有要依照核定的計畫進行補助，應該要先跟地方政府協商修正計畫，然後再依照協商過後的計畫來調整補助的額度，但是現在的情況是不是跳過了這個程序，行政院就直接說預算不夠？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，預算不夠，行政院有行政院的說法，但是它是不是跳過了這個程序，直接刪減了對地方政府的補助？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們對於地方政府的補助，目前的比例還沒有調整，根據我自己的觀察，如果財劃法這樣走下去，未來勢必要調整，但現在我們還沒有決定要怎麼調整，因為目前財劃法還在浮動的狀況。"],["廖委員先翔：但你們在還沒有調整的時候，就先動了明年的部分，而沒有把這個程序走完。"],["陳部長世凱：但是我所了解的，各個地方政府的需求，並沒有因為這個調整而造成施工上的拖延，進度不會拖延，其實一年的改變，進度不會太拖延，但如果長久改變，可能會。"],["廖委員先翔：對嘛！不可能說少給錢而進度不變，這是不可能的嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：明年度其實不會，我們有跟地方政府溝通過。"],["廖委員先翔：除了明年，還有後年，這部分總是要提早討論！"],["陳部長世凱：有，如果長期要調整……"],["廖委員先翔：好啦！中央就算真的要砍地方補助款，說因為地方拿了更多錢，地方要負擔更多，這個我想社會自有公評，地方是不是要負擔更多，可以討論，但行政院怎麼可以在還沒有修正計畫前就調整補助地方政府的比例，我認為這個在程序上有點過於便宜行事，對地方政府也是一個不公平的情況。我再確認一下，行政院是針對交通部每一筆報上去的大筆經費調整，還是直接就整個交通部框架下的明年預算拿掉多少？是哪一種概念？"],["陳部長世凱：我們是有分項提上去……"],["廖委員先翔：分項提？"],["陳部長世凱：分項提……"],["廖委員先翔：所以它是分項減？"],["陳部長世凱：對，應該是，我們整體上是報了2,200億，因為明年、後年跟大後年大概是我們公共建設的高峰期……"],["廖委員先翔：我們報2,200？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們報2,200公建計畫的預算，目前行政院核給我們是1,100，大概只有一半。"],["廖委員先翔：所以除了軌道建設300億，大概還有700……"],["陳部長世凱：我們其他的建設其實都已經……"],["廖委員先翔：700左右。好，再確認一下，交通部被扣了700，那你們有沒有哪個單位的預算或者特定項目的補助是增加的？"],["陳部長世凱：增加的喔？我看大部分是減少。"],["廖委員先翔：你們明年不是有一筆臺鐵營運補貼的補助經費？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，軌道部分是比過去增加，為什麼會增加？因為就像我剛才說明的，明年、後年、大後年是我們公共建設的高峰期，所以預算整體來看，軌道部分是比前一年更多、比今年更多，但實際上我們的需求還沒有滿足，以軌道來講，我們的需求是700億，但實際核下來是445億。"],["廖委員先翔：我想軌道建設大家都非常關注，它的公益性也非常足夠，沒關係，交通部有依照你們的責任報上去，砍預算的是行政院，我也不會怪到你們身上，那是行政院要去跟地方政府、跟市民大眾交代的……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會儘量來爭取。"],["廖委員先翔：希望交通部還是依照既有程序，該有怎麼樣的程序才能動地方政府的補助款，也希望交通部能夠跟行政院說明怎麼樣才是依法行政，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：最後一點，1分鐘，我想確認一下現在鐵道法的修法進度，就是有關平溪天燈或者特定支線的觀光問題。"],["陳部長世凱：這個在進行中，也會有一個圓滿的解決。"],["廖委員先翔：目前進度在哪邊？之前鐵道局送到交通部了，交通部目前是回……"],["楊局長正君：法制作業當中，部長有指示，我們會加速辦理。"],["陳部長世凱：在法制作業，這個確定會這麼做……"],["廖委員先翔：確定會改？"],["陳部長世凱：讓大家未來有一個時間、區域可以在那邊拍照……"],["廖委員先翔：因為我們上個會期最後也有作成決議，沒關係，決議歸決議，只要你們有認真在進行，我們都支持，不會苛責。"],["陳部長世凱：現在就是進入法制作業，法制作業確定定案，然後把法制作業流程走完，大概就是……"],["廖委員先翔：你可不可以簡單抓一個時間點，至少你們哪時候可以送行政院？鐵道局要送交通部，交通部還要送行政院，後面的事情就不歸你們了，對不對？至少交通部抓個要送行政院的時間點，因為這個攸關地方的文化、經濟，尤其是國際觀光，現在已經……"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，這個時間我回去再……因為我們還要預告，預告大概兩個月，目前是已經定案了，但還要走預告程序，整個法制作業審查程序走完大概要3個月左右的時間。"],["廖委員先翔：地方的文化、觀光形塑不容易，現在已經沒有辦法去做在鐵道上放天燈的行為，如果空窗期太久，外國觀光客已經知道這件事，以後就算再開放，還要重新再推銷，再去喚起大家對這件事情的嚮往或重視，相對起來，要花費更多的成本，既然我們在行政作業上能夠比較快速，這部分就再繼續拜託部長、拜託交通部同仁，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們儘量，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席（廖委員先翔代）：繼續請洪孟楷召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","謝龍介","邱若華","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","游顥","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長及勞動部就「臺鐵各地車站旅客安全措\n施檢討、改善員工職場安全及勞動條件」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通\n部鐵道局局長就「全台軌道建設進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00002"}}}