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\"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,967 --> 00:00:25,896\n謝謝主席有請人事長請人事長委員早安人事長早請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設有哪十個建設是蔣經國時代的嗎對大概高速公路中鋼中船\n\n2\n00:00:28,587 --> 00:00:50,569\n中正國際機場機場大概是以交通為主體的以交通為主體中山高速公路還有就是以交通為主體的嘛陸海空嘛還有中港嘛台中港還有蘇澳港石化工業核能發電廠\n\n3\n00:00:53,072 --> 00:01:00,009\n我想請教一下任市長你知道當時這個十大建設對我們台灣帶來什麼樣的效益\n\n4\n00:01:03,221 --> 00:01:29,253\n那就是孩子要當大人了就是一個政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要的重大的投資第一個是抵抗當時那個石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣是短期面長期就是你說的當大人就是說把台灣創造現代化的一個基礎建設然後也改善我們的投資環境那包括鋼鐵造船石化工業都可以提高我們的\n\n5\n00:01:29,673 --> 00:01:54,057\n一些原料的自主度降低對外的依賴的程度為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎所以台灣今天的所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大建設基礎建設有非常高度的關係對不對一定是非常有關那我想請教您你覺得十大建設最大的工程有哪些人\n\n6\n00:01:57,386 --> 00:02:20,827\n大概孫益賢還有我們中綱那個趙耀東嘛那當然帶頭的大概是我們蔣經國前總統嘛那當然這裡面默默奉獻的會更多人啦會更多人默默奉獻更多的是哪一些人\n\n7\n00:02:22,694 --> 00:02:41,602\n那位都沒出名他就常常這麼做我跟人事長講啦就是你啦你知道嗎就是跟你一樣奉公守法兢兢業業為國家服務打拼的公務員對不對沒有這些文官他沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛對不對\n\n8\n00:02:42,951 --> 00:02:59,540\n公務人員本來就是一個國家安定穩定還有發展一個非常非常重要的因素可是他們平常很少被highlight出來他們是默默在做就是無名英雄無名英雄就當年\n\n9\n00:03:00,734 --> 00:03:29,102\n你會發現說除了一些優秀的政務官專業的一些我們講國營事業經營者還有就是一些非常優秀的文官專業認真然後忠誠然後為我們國家建設來打拼的公務員是他們打造今天台灣堅實的一個所謂的基礎建設跟經濟基礎那我再問你知道現在台灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業對不對\n\n10\n00:03:31,332 --> 00:03:53,548\n目前大家從十年前的自動性產業那這五六年就是直接就跨到半導體部分那當然未來還是會以AI為主體的一個產業然後它會延展出來比如像光通訊還有量子運算的相關的領域的還有一些\n\n11\n00:03:57,490 --> 00:04:24,668\n醫療科技的部分我覺得是台灣非常有機會的一個區塊那其中有一個我們講就是說等於是台灣高科技產業的孵化器就新竹科學園區嘛包括台積電啊當年在電機的時候也是你剛剛講的那些包括孫玉璇啊李國鼎啊很多優秀的政務官那打造這些所謂的我們講高科技的所謂的搖籃還是有一群無名的英雄默默無名的英雄是誰\n\n12\n00:04:27,594 --> 00:04:51,874\n你剛講過了嘛我提到從工研院出來的這些人坦白講那一個機關對台灣來講很重要工研院然後這裡面大概大家耳熟能詳的就是孫益謙以前在台電嘛後來有李國鼎嘛KT嘛還有相關的這些人我覺得他always在這個領域會\n\n13\n00:04:54,476 --> 00:05:03,707\n給大家坐標一個非常無可期待的一個位置覺得市長講得很好我為什麼要問你這些事情知道嗎\n\n14\n00:05:04,841 --> 00:05:32,557\n因為你會看到在那個年代當中其實第一個我們整個社會的景象是這樣有一些非常優秀有遠見有潛在力有魄力的政務官然後帶著一群有專業有熱情為國家奉獻的公務員所以兩個合作起來打拼打造了今天台灣非常堅實的不管是產業的基礎還是我們講說是工業的基礎乃至於經濟發展的基礎\n\n15\n00:05:34,858 --> 00:05:44,488\n那當時的公務員說實在話任市長你也是一路公務員上來嘛對不對公務員在當時應該還算是一個算是還蠻光榮的行業吧對不對\n\n16\n00:05:46,625 --> 00:06:08,144\n穩定啦穩定那光榮是覺得就是奉獻國家的一個蠻好的一個途徑非常好我跟任司長講我當兵退伍我也考上公務員考到高考分派到公平教育委員會當時我印象非常深刻當我回去跟爸爸媽媽講我考上公務員之後\n\n17\n00:06:08,717 --> 00:06:24,533\n我爸爸那开心的样子我相信任市长你应该有经历过这个过程吧没有被骂为什么要进国家机关代表你的能力很好这个你的父母亲不希望你当公务员是这个意思吗我要讲一件事拉回来一个重点就是事实上在过去的我们的所谓的\n\n18\n00:06:30,448 --> 00:06:49,123\n政治環境或是政府環境裡面公務員是很有光榮感的那時候國家也很照顧公務員那國家也很需要優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的整個支柱但是我想請問你跟過去比起來公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎還是嗎\n\n19\n00:06:53,973 --> 00:07:16,388\n整體來講是啦可是有一些時空環境的不一樣現在年輕人他對他的工作的那種期待他很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五他希望他的上班時間可以更加的輕鬆你講這個我不是很認同我也不認為什麼叫時代會改變什麼樣的人的習性\n\n20\n00:07:17,697 --> 00:07:32,616\n你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作啊如果自由自在又有好薪水又有好待遇又有好的退休保障的工作然後又有光榮感的工作我還是願意去做啊不要朝九晚五啊所以這跟時代無關\n\n21\n00:07:34,028 --> 00:07:50,605\n基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的可是為什麼以前我只是問你一件事跟以前跟20年前跟30年前好不用講跟10年前好了相比你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎\n\n22\n00:07:53,627 --> 00:08:13,700\n我覺得換個角度來看以前選擇的機會會比較少所以很多人選擇當老師公務人員因為生活比較安定現在選擇也比較多所以我想以前選擇也很多有些經濟蓬勃發展的過程當中商業環境優渥還是很多不一樣的選擇\n\n23\n00:08:14,941 --> 00:08:44,042\n那我拿一個客觀數據因為講感覺不準嘛講個客觀數據嘛你知道在馬英九執政的時候他公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人哪一年最高2009年啦50萬人啦50萬人最高啦他平均大概保持到將近40萬嘛但是最高曾經到50萬嘛對不對那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少\n\n24\n00:08:47,046 --> 00:09:06,431\n16萬啦大概不到2016萬啦如果從這個國民黨執政把政府所有的50萬做最高點來算到16萬那是掉7成啦掉7%那就算是以所謂40萬來算那也掉到6成啦少了6成欸\n\n25\n00:09:07,796 --> 00:09:23,536\n我想請問你這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的一個狀況公務人員今天為什麼報考人數大減你不要跟我講掃紙化喔台灣的掃紙化也沒有掃到說今天掉六成七成沒有喔沒錯吧\n\n26\n00:09:24,964 --> 00:09:45,660\n沒有到七成大概今年會到十一萬左右這樣的幅度還是蠻大的這樣的幅度大啊但是我也跟你講就是說也沒有到今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深啊沒錯吧我覺得比較客觀來講應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣我要跟我們的主計長講\n\n27\n00:09:49,002 --> 00:10:12,688\n你講說經濟環境講年輕人選擇職業的多樣化這些都是每個時代都有啦有經濟有繁榮有低迷台灣這麼多年來都是如此但公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的那回頭為什麼要問這些事情為什麼跟你講一件事情請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停侃年金嗎停侃公務員年金嗎\n\n28\n00:10:13,942 --> 00:10:37,069\n我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體的那種潛藏負債的角度來看我跟任市長講你知道我向來不為難你啦你現在主要的執政的政策不是你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向但我今天很客觀告訴你如果今天我們公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬50萬\n\n29\n00:10:39,329 --> 00:10:53,408\n你年金砍到一直砍他還是維持這麼多報考人數代表這個起碼有個客觀指標他還是一個吸引人的職業現在不是啊我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金\n\n30\n00:10:54,643 --> 00:11:17,100\n今天要做適度的調整公務人員也沒反對喔他沒有國家一輩子付出奉獻那你所得替代一直砍砍砍現在砍到七成以下他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金的調整可是今天非常卑微是什麼因為已經砍到傷筋動骨了嘛我講白了人事長你做人事長喔\n\n31\n00:11:18,294 --> 00:11:26,290\n公務人員體系的所有的用人的狀況你是最了解的你真的我不勉強你說這句話但我相信心知肚明\n\n32\n00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:54,144\n現在公務員其實光榮感是受很大的一個所謂的折損那他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇他也被現在政府尤其是退休保障有非常大的削減的時候他當然降低了他對所謂的職業的選擇的吸引力啊那為什麼我們今天要主張停砍停砍才是真改革因為你砍過頭你傷害的是國家啦\n\n33\n00:11:55,686 --> 00:12:20,821\n當年那麼多的文官奠基出來的台灣經濟的榮景今天你這樣去傷害他們不要講不公道你已經妨礙了國家的運作很多地方公務員也找不到老師也找不到人都有這個問題開始出現一個國家如果沒有好的文官來做支撐請問如何去因應多變的局面跟複雜的跟重要的國家建設跟政策呢\n\n34\n00:12:21,701 --> 00:12:32,772\n所以這邊我還是要再次呼籲一件事情真的也拜託今天我們的執政者或中央政府高抬貴手年金這個題目停砍才是真的改革謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5967\t25896\t謝謝主席 有請人事長請人事長委員早安 人事長早請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設有哪十個建設是蔣經國時代的嗎 對大概高速公路 中鋼 中船\n28587\t50569\t中正國際機場機場大概是以交通為主體的以交通為主體中山高速公路還有就是以交通為主體的嘛陸海空嘛還有中港嘛台中港還有蘇澳港石化工業核能發電廠\n53072\t60009\t我想請教一下任市長你知道當時這個十大建設對我們台灣帶來什麼樣的效益\n63221\t89253\t那就是孩子要當大人了就是一個政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要的重大的投資第一個是抵抗當時那個石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣是短期面長期就是你說的當大人就是說把台灣創造現代化的一個基礎建設然後也改善我們的投資環境那包括鋼鐵造船石化工業都可以提高我們的\n89673\t114057\t一些原料的自主度 降低對外的依賴的程度為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎所以台灣今天的所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大建設基礎建設有非常高度的關係 對不對一定是非常有關那我想請教您 你覺得十大建設最大的工程有哪些人\n117386\t140827\t大概孫益賢還有我們中綱那個趙耀東嘛那當然帶頭的大概是我們蔣經國前總統嘛那當然這裡面默默奉獻的會更多人啦會更多人默默奉獻更多的是哪一些人\n142694\t161602\t那位都沒出名 他就常常這麼做我跟人事長講啦 就是你啦你知道嗎 就是跟你一樣奉公守法 兢兢業業為國家服務打拼的公務員 對不對沒有這些文官他沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛 對不對\n162951\t179540\t公務人員本來就是一個國家安定穩定還有發展一個非常非常重要的因素可是他們平常很少被highlight出來他們是默默在做就是無名英雄無名英雄就當年\n180734\t209102\t你會發現說除了一些優秀的政務官專業的一些我們講國營事業經營者還有就是一些非常優秀的文官專業認真然後忠誠然後為我們國家建設來打拼的公務員是他們打造今天台灣堅實的一個所謂的基礎建設跟經濟基礎那我再問你知道現在台灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業對不對\n211332\t233548\t目前大家從十年前的自動性產業那這五六年就是直接就跨到半導體部分那當然未來還是會以AI為主體的一個產業然後它會延展出來比如像光通訊還有量子運算的相關的領域的還有一些\n237490\t264668\t醫療科技的部分我覺得是台灣非常有機會的一個區塊那其中有一個我們講就是說等於是台灣高科技產業的孵化器就新竹科學園區嘛包括台積電啊當年在電機的時候也是你剛剛講的那些包括孫玉璇啊李國鼎啊很多優秀的政務官那打造這些所謂的我們講高科技的所謂的搖籃還是有一群無名的英雄默默無名的英雄是誰\n267594\t291874\t你剛講過了嘛我提到從工研院出來的這些人坦白講那一個機關對台灣來講很重要工研院然後這裡面大概大家耳熟能詳的就是孫益謙以前在台電嘛後來有李國鼎嘛 KT嘛還有相關的這些人我覺得他always在這個領域會\n294476\t303707\t給大家坐標一個非常無可期待的一個位置覺得市長講得很好我為什麼要問你這些事情知道嗎\n304841\t332557\t因為你會看到在那個年代當中其實第一個我們整個社會的景象是這樣有一些非常優秀有遠見有潛在力有魄力的政務官然後帶著一群有專業有熱情為國家奉獻的公務員所以兩個合作起來打拼打造了今天台灣非常堅實的不管是產業的基礎還是我們講說是工業的基礎乃至於經濟發展的基礎\n334858\t344488\t那當時的公務員說實在話任市長你也是一路公務員上來嘛對不對公務員在當時應該還算是一個算是還蠻光榮的行業吧對不對\n346625\t368144\t穩定啦 穩定那光榮是覺得就是奉獻國家的一個蠻好的一個途徑非常好我跟任司長講我當兵退伍我也考上公務員考到高考分派到公平教育委員會當時我印象非常深刻當我回去跟爸爸媽媽講我考上公務員之後\n368717\t384533\t我爸爸那开心的样子我相信任市长你应该有经历过这个过程吧没有被骂为什么要进国家机关代表你的能力很好这个你的父母亲不希望你当公务员是这个意思吗我要讲一件事拉回来一个重点就是事实上在过去的我们的所谓的\n390448\t409123\t政治環境或是政府環境裡面公務員是很有光榮感的那時候國家也很照顧公務員那國家也很需要優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的整個支柱但是我想請問你跟過去比起來公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎還是嗎\n413973\t436388\t整體來講是啦可是有一些時空環境的不一樣現在年輕人他對他的工作的那種期待他很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五他希望他的上班時間可以更加的輕鬆你講這個我不是很認同我也不認為什麼叫時代會改變什麼樣的人的習性\n437697\t452616\t你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作啊如果自由自在又有好薪水又有好待遇又有好的退休保障的工作然後又有光榮感的工作我還是願意去做啊不要朝九晚五啊所以這跟時代無關\n454028\t470605\t基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的可是為什麼以前我只是問你一件事跟以前跟20年前跟30年前好不用講跟10年前好了相比你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎\n473627\t493700\t我覺得換個角度來看以前選擇的機會會比較少所以很多人選擇當老師 公務人員因為生活比較安定現在選擇也比較多所以我想以前選擇也很多有些經濟蓬勃發展的過程當中商業環境優渥還是很多不一樣的選擇\n494941\t524042\t那我拿一個客觀數據 因為講感覺不準嘛講個客觀數據嘛你知道在馬英九執政的時候他公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人哪一年最高2009年啦50萬人啦50萬人 最高啦他平均大概保持到將近40萬嘛但是最高曾經到50萬嘛 對不對那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少\n527046\t546431\t16萬啦大概不到2016萬啦如果從這個國民黨執政把政府所有的50萬做最高點來算到16萬那是掉7成啦掉7%那就算是以所謂40萬來算那也掉到6成啦少了6成欸\n547796\t563536\t我想請問你這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的一個狀況公務人員今天為什麼報考人數大減你不要跟我講掃紙化喔台灣的掃紙化也沒有掃到說今天掉六成七成沒有喔 沒錯吧\n564964\t585660\t沒有到七成 大概今年會到十一萬左右這樣的幅度還是蠻大的這樣的幅度大啊但是我也跟你講就是說也沒有到今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深啊 沒錯吧我覺得比較客觀來講應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣我要跟我們的主計長講\n589002\t612688\t你講說經濟環境講年輕人選擇職業的多樣化這些都是每個時代都有啦有經濟有繁榮有低迷台灣這麼多年來都是如此但公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的那回頭為什麼要問這些事情為什麼跟你講一件事情請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停侃年金嗎停侃公務員年金嗎\n613942\t637069\t我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體的那種潛藏負債的角度來看我跟任市長講 你知道我向來不為難你啦你現在主要的執政的政策不是你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向但我今天很客觀告訴你如果今天我們公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬 50萬\n639329\t653408\t你年金砍到一直砍他還是維持這麼多報考人數代表這個起碼有個客觀指標他還是一個吸引人的職業現在不是啊我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金\n654643\t677100\t今天要做適度的調整公務人員也沒反對喔他沒有國家一輩子付出奉獻那你所得替代一直砍砍砍現在砍到七成以下他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金的調整可是今天非常卑微是什麼因為已經砍到傷筋動骨了嘛我講白了 人事長你做人事長喔\n678294\t686290\t公務人員體系的所有的用人的狀況你是最了解的你真的我不勉強你說這句話但我相信心知肚明\n687276\t714144\t現在公務員其實光榮感是受很大的一個所謂的折損那他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇他也被現在政府尤其是退休保障有非常大的削減的時候他當然降低了他對所謂的職業的選擇的吸引力啊那為什麼我們今天要主張停砍停砍才是真改革因為你砍過頭你傷害的是國家啦\n715686\t740821\t當年那麼多的文官奠基出來的台灣經濟的榮景今天你這樣去傷害他們不要講不公道你已經妨礙了國家的運作很多地方公務員也找不到老師也找不到人都有這個問題開始出現一個國家如果沒有好的文官來做支撐請問如何去因應多變的局面跟複雜的跟重要的國家建設跟政策呢\n741701\t752772\t所以這邊我還是要再次呼籲一件事情真的也拜託今天我們的執政者或中央政府高抬貴手年金這個題目停砍才是真的改革謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請人事長請人事長委員早安 人事長早請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設有哪十個建設是蔣經國時代的嗎 對大概高速公路 中鋼 中船\n中正國際機場機場大概是以交通為主體的以交通為主體中山高速公路還有就是以交通為主體的嘛陸海空嘛還有中港嘛台中港還有蘇澳港石化工業核能發電廠\n我想請教一下任市長你知道當時這個十大建設對我們台灣帶來什麼樣的效益\n那就是孩子要當大人了就是一個政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要的重大的投資第一個是抵抗當時那個石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣是短期面長期就是你說的當大人就是說把台灣創造現代化的一個基礎建設然後也改善我們的投資環境那包括鋼鐵造船石化工業都可以提高我們的\n一些原料的自主度 降低對外的依賴的程度為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎所以台灣今天的所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大建設基礎建設有非常高度的關係 對不對一定是非常有關那我想請教您 你覺得十大建設最大的工程有哪些人\n大概孫益賢還有我們中綱那個趙耀東嘛那當然帶頭的大概是我們蔣經國前總統嘛那當然這裡面默默奉獻的會更多人啦會更多人默默奉獻更多的是哪一些人\n那位都沒出名 他就常常這麼做我跟人事長講啦 就是你啦你知道嗎 就是跟你一樣奉公守法 兢兢業業為國家服務打拼的公務員 對不對沒有這些文官他沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛 對不對\n公務人員本來就是一個國家安定穩定還有發展一個非常非常重要的因素可是他們平常很少被highlight出來他們是默默在做就是無名英雄無名英雄就當年\n你會發現說除了一些優秀的政務官專業的一些我們講國營事業經營者還有就是一些非常優秀的文官專業認真然後忠誠然後為我們國家建設來打拼的公務員是他們打造今天台灣堅實的一個所謂的基礎建設跟經濟基礎那我再問你知道現在台灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業對不對\n目前大家從十年前的自動性產業那這五六年就是直接就跨到半導體部分那當然未來還是會以AI為主體的一個產業然後它會延展出來比如像光通訊還有量子運算的相關的領域的還有一些\n醫療科技的部分我覺得是台灣非常有機會的一個區塊那其中有一個我們講就是說等於是台灣高科技產業的孵化器就新竹科學園區嘛包括台積電啊當年在電機的時候也是你剛剛講的那些包括孫玉璇啊李國鼎啊很多優秀的政務官那打造這些所謂的我們講高科技的所謂的搖籃還是有一群無名的英雄默默無名的英雄是誰\n你剛講過了嘛我提到從工研院出來的這些人坦白講那一個機關對台灣來講很重要工研院然後這裡面大概大家耳熟能詳的就是孫益謙以前在台電嘛後來有李國鼎嘛 KT嘛還有相關的這些人我覺得他always在這個領域會\n給大家坐標一個非常無可期待的一個位置覺得市長講得很好我為什麼要問你這些事情知道嗎\n因為你會看到在那個年代當中其實第一個我們整個社會的景象是這樣有一些非常優秀有遠見有潛在力有魄力的政務官然後帶著一群有專業有熱情為國家奉獻的公務員所以兩個合作起來打拼打造了今天台灣非常堅實的不管是產業的基礎還是我們講說是工業的基礎乃至於經濟發展的基礎\n那當時的公務員說實在話任市長你也是一路公務員上來嘛對不對公務員在當時應該還算是一個算是還蠻光榮的行業吧對不對\n穩定啦 穩定那光榮是覺得就是奉獻國家的一個蠻好的一個途徑非常好我跟任司長講我當兵退伍我也考上公務員考到高考分派到公平教育委員會當時我印象非常深刻當我回去跟爸爸媽媽講我考上公務員之後\n我爸爸那开心的样子我相信任市长你应该有经历过这个过程吧没有被骂为什么要进国家机关代表你的能力很好这个你的父母亲不希望你当公务员是这个意思吗我要讲一件事拉回来一个重点就是事实上在过去的我们的所谓的\n政治環境或是政府環境裡面公務員是很有光榮感的那時候國家也很照顧公務員那國家也很需要優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的整個支柱但是我想請問你跟過去比起來公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎還是嗎\n整體來講是啦可是有一些時空環境的不一樣現在年輕人他對他的工作的那種期待他很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五他希望他的上班時間可以更加的輕鬆你講這個我不是很認同我也不認為什麼叫時代會改變什麼樣的人的習性\n你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作啊如果自由自在又有好薪水又有好待遇又有好的退休保障的工作然後又有光榮感的工作我還是願意去做啊不要朝九晚五啊所以這跟時代無關\n基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的可是為什麼以前我只是問你一件事跟以前跟20年前跟30年前好不用講跟10年前好了相比你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎\n我覺得換個角度來看以前選擇的機會會比較少所以很多人選擇當老師 公務人員因為生活比較安定現在選擇也比較多所以我想以前選擇也很多有些經濟蓬勃發展的過程當中商業環境優渥還是很多不一樣的選擇\n那我拿一個客觀數據 因為講感覺不準嘛講個客觀數據嘛你知道在馬英九執政的時候他公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人哪一年最高2009年啦50萬人啦50萬人 最高啦他平均大概保持到將近40萬嘛但是最高曾經到50萬嘛 對不對那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少\n16萬啦大概不到2016萬啦如果從這個國民黨執政把政府所有的50萬做最高點來算到16萬那是掉7成啦掉7%那就算是以所謂40萬來算那也掉到6成啦少了6成欸\n我想請問你這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的一個狀況公務人員今天為什麼報考人數大減你不要跟我講掃紙化喔台灣的掃紙化也沒有掃到說今天掉六成七成沒有喔 沒錯吧\n沒有到七成 大概今年會到十一萬左右這樣的幅度還是蠻大的這樣的幅度大啊但是我也跟你講就是說也沒有到今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深啊 沒錯吧我覺得比較客觀來講應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣我要跟我們的主計長講\n你講說經濟環境講年輕人選擇職業的多樣化這些都是每個時代都有啦有經濟有繁榮有低迷台灣這麼多年來都是如此但公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的那回頭為什麼要問這些事情為什麼跟你講一件事情請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停侃年金嗎停侃公務員年金嗎\n我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體的那種潛藏負債的角度來看我跟任市長講 你知道我向來不為難你啦你現在主要的執政的政策不是你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向但我今天很客觀告訴你如果今天我們公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬 50萬\n你年金砍到一直砍他還是維持這麼多報考人數代表這個起碼有個客觀指標他還是一個吸引人的職業現在不是啊我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金\n今天要做適度的調整公務人員也沒反對喔他沒有國家一輩子付出奉獻那你所得替代一直砍砍砍現在砍到七成以下他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金的調整可是今天非常卑微是什麼因為已經砍到傷筋動骨了嘛我講白了 人事長你做人事長喔\n公務人員體系的所有的用人的狀況你是最了解的你真的我不勉強你說這句話但我相信心知肚明\n現在公務員其實光榮感是受很大的一個所謂的折損那他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇他也被現在政府尤其是退休保障有非常大的削減的時候他當然降低了他對所謂的職業的選擇的吸引力啊那為什麼我們今天要主張停砍停砍才是真改革因為你砍過頭你傷害的是國家啦\n當年那麼多的文官奠基出來的台灣經濟的榮景今天你這樣去傷害他們不要講不公道你已經妨礙了國家的運作很多地方公務員也找不到老師也找不到人都有這個問題開始出現一個國家如果沒有好的文官來做支撐請問如何去因應多變的局面跟複雜的跟重要的國家建設跟政策呢\n所以這邊我還是要再次呼籲一件事情真的也拜託今天我們的執政者或中央政府高抬貴手年金這個題目停砍才是真的改革謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.967 --> 00:25.896\n謝謝主席有請人事長請人事長委員早安人事長早請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設有哪十個建設是蔣經國時代的嗎對大概高速公路中鋼中船\n\n00:28.587 --> 00:50.569\n中正國際機場機場大概是以交通為主體的以交通為主體中山高速公路還有就是以交通為主體的嘛陸海空嘛還有中港嘛台中港還有蘇澳港石化工業核能發電廠\n\n00:53.072 --> 01:00.009\n我想請教一下任市長你知道當時這個十大建設對我們台灣帶來什麼樣的效益\n\n01:03.221 --> 01:29.253\n那就是孩子要當大人了就是一個政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要的重大的投資第一個是抵抗當時那個石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣是短期面長期就是你說的當大人就是說把台灣創造現代化的一個基礎建設然後也改善我們的投資環境那包括鋼鐵造船石化工業都可以提高我們的\n\n01:29.673 --> 01:54.057\n一些原料的自主度降低對外的依賴的程度為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎所以台灣今天的所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大建設基礎建設有非常高度的關係對不對一定是非常有關那我想請教您你覺得十大建設最大的工程有哪些人\n\n01:57.386 --> 02:20.827\n大概孫益賢還有我們中綱那個趙耀東嘛那當然帶頭的大概是我們蔣經國前總統嘛那當然這裡面默默奉獻的會更多人啦會更多人默默奉獻更多的是哪一些人\n\n02:22.694 --> 02:41.602\n那位都沒出名他就常常這麼做我跟人事長講啦就是你啦你知道嗎就是跟你一樣奉公守法兢兢業業為國家服務打拼的公務員對不對沒有這些文官他沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛對不對\n\n02:42.951 --> 02:59.540\n公務人員本來就是一個國家安定穩定還有發展一個非常非常重要的因素可是他們平常很少被highlight出來他們是默默在做就是無名英雄無名英雄就當年\n\n03:00.734 --> 03:29.102\n你會發現說除了一些優秀的政務官專業的一些我們講國營事業經營者還有就是一些非常優秀的文官專業認真然後忠誠然後為我們國家建設來打拼的公務員是他們打造今天台灣堅實的一個所謂的基礎建設跟經濟基礎那我再問你知道現在台灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業對不對\n\n03:31.332 --> 03:53.548\n目前大家從十年前的自動性產業那這五六年就是直接就跨到半導體部分那當然未來還是會以AI為主體的一個產業然後它會延展出來比如像光通訊還有量子運算的相關的領域的還有一些\n\n03:57.490 --> 04:24.668\n醫療科技的部分我覺得是台灣非常有機會的一個區塊那其中有一個我們講就是說等於是台灣高科技產業的孵化器就新竹科學園區嘛包括台積電啊當年在電機的時候也是你剛剛講的那些包括孫玉璇啊李國鼎啊很多優秀的政務官那打造這些所謂的我們講高科技的所謂的搖籃還是有一群無名的英雄默默無名的英雄是誰\n\n04:27.594 --> 04:51.874\n你剛講過了嘛我提到從工研院出來的這些人坦白講那一個機關對台灣來講很重要工研院然後這裡面大概大家耳熟能詳的就是孫益謙以前在台電嘛後來有李國鼎嘛KT嘛還有相關的這些人我覺得他always在這個領域會\n\n04:54.476 --> 05:03.707\n給大家坐標一個非常無可期待的一個位置覺得市長講得很好我為什麼要問你這些事情知道嗎\n\n05:04.841 --> 05:32.557\n因為你會看到在那個年代當中其實第一個我們整個社會的景象是這樣有一些非常優秀有遠見有潛在力有魄力的政務官然後帶著一群有專業有熱情為國家奉獻的公務員所以兩個合作起來打拼打造了今天台灣非常堅實的不管是產業的基礎還是我們講說是工業的基礎乃至於經濟發展的基礎\n\n05:34.858 --> 05:44.488\n那當時的公務員說實在話任市長你也是一路公務員上來嘛對不對公務員在當時應該還算是一個算是還蠻光榮的行業吧對不對\n\n05:46.625 --> 06:08.144\n穩定啦穩定那光榮是覺得就是奉獻國家的一個蠻好的一個途徑非常好我跟任司長講我當兵退伍我也考上公務員考到高考分派到公平教育委員會當時我印象非常深刻當我回去跟爸爸媽媽講我考上公務員之後\n\n06:08.717 --> 06:24.533\n我爸爸那开心的样子我相信任市长你应该有经历过这个过程吧没有被骂为什么要进国家机关代表你的能力很好这个你的父母亲不希望你当公务员是这个意思吗我要讲一件事拉回来一个重点就是事实上在过去的我们的所谓的\n\n06:30.448 --> 06:49.123\n政治環境或是政府環境裡面公務員是很有光榮感的那時候國家也很照顧公務員那國家也很需要優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的整個支柱但是我想請問你跟過去比起來公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎還是嗎\n\n06:53.973 --> 07:16.388\n整體來講是啦可是有一些時空環境的不一樣現在年輕人他對他的工作的那種期待他很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五他希望他的上班時間可以更加的輕鬆你講這個我不是很認同我也不認為什麼叫時代會改變什麼樣的人的習性\n\n07:17.697 --> 07:32.616\n你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作啊如果自由自在又有好薪水又有好待遇又有好的退休保障的工作然後又有光榮感的工作我還是願意去做啊不要朝九晚五啊所以這跟時代無關\n\n07:34.028 --> 07:50.605\n基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的可是為什麼以前我只是問你一件事跟以前跟20年前跟30年前好不用講跟10年前好了相比你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎\n\n07:53.627 --> 08:13.700\n我覺得換個角度來看以前選擇的機會會比較少所以很多人選擇當老師公務人員因為生活比較安定現在選擇也比較多所以我想以前選擇也很多有些經濟蓬勃發展的過程當中商業環境優渥還是很多不一樣的選擇\n\n08:14.941 --> 08:44.042\n那我拿一個客觀數據因為講感覺不準嘛講個客觀數據嘛你知道在馬英九執政的時候他公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人哪一年最高2009年啦50萬人啦50萬人最高啦他平均大概保持到將近40萬嘛但是最高曾經到50萬嘛對不對那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少\n\n08:47.046 --> 09:06.431\n16萬啦大概不到2016萬啦如果從這個國民黨執政把政府所有的50萬做最高點來算到16萬那是掉7成啦掉7%那就算是以所謂40萬來算那也掉到6成啦少了6成欸\n\n09:07.796 --> 09:23.536\n我想請問你這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的一個狀況公務人員今天為什麼報考人數大減你不要跟我講掃紙化喔台灣的掃紙化也沒有掃到說今天掉六成七成沒有喔沒錯吧\n\n09:24.964 --> 09:45.660\n沒有到七成大概今年會到十一萬左右這樣的幅度還是蠻大的這樣的幅度大啊但是我也跟你講就是說也沒有到今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深啊沒錯吧我覺得比較客觀來講應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣我要跟我們的主計長講\n\n09:49.002 --> 10:12.688\n你講說經濟環境講年輕人選擇職業的多樣化這些都是每個時代都有啦有經濟有繁榮有低迷台灣這麼多年來都是如此但公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的那回頭為什麼要問這些事情為什麼跟你講一件事情請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停侃年金嗎停侃公務員年金嗎\n\n10:13.942 --> 10:37.069\n我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體的那種潛藏負債的角度來看我跟任市長講你知道我向來不為難你啦你現在主要的執政的政策不是你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向但我今天很客觀告訴你如果今天我們公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬50萬\n\n10:39.329 --> 10:53.408\n你年金砍到一直砍他還是維持這麼多報考人數代表這個起碼有個客觀指標他還是一個吸引人的職業現在不是啊我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金\n\n10:54.643 --> 11:17.100\n今天要做適度的調整公務人員也沒反對喔他沒有國家一輩子付出奉獻那你所得替代一直砍砍砍現在砍到七成以下他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金的調整可是今天非常卑微是什麼因為已經砍到傷筋動骨了嘛我講白了人事長你做人事長喔\n\n11:18.294 --> 11:26.290\n公務人員體系的所有的用人的狀況你是最了解的你真的我不勉強你說這句話但我相信心知肚明\n\n11:27.276 --> 11:54.144\n現在公務員其實光榮感是受很大的一個所謂的折損那他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇他也被現在政府尤其是退休保障有非常大的削減的時候他當然降低了他對所謂的職業的選擇的吸引力啊那為什麼我們今天要主張停砍停砍才是真改革因為你砍過頭你傷害的是國家啦\n\n11:55.686 --> 12:20.821\n當年那麼多的文官奠基出來的台灣經濟的榮景今天你這樣去傷害他們不要講不公道你已經妨礙了國家的運作很多地方公務員也找不到老師也找不到人都有這個問題開始出現一個國家如果沒有好的文官來做支撐請問如何去因應多變的局面跟複雜的跟重要的國家建設跟政策呢\n\n12:21.701 --> 12:32.772\n所以這邊我還是要再次呼籲一件事情真的也拜託今天我們的執政者或中央政府高抬貴手年金這個題目停砍才是真的改革謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.967,"end":25.896,"text":"謝謝主席 有請人事長請人事長委員早安 人事長早請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設有哪十個建設是蔣經國時代的嗎 對大概高速公路 中鋼 中船"},{"start":28.587,"end":50.569,"text":"中正國際機場機場大概是以交通為主體的以交通為主體中山高速公路還有就是以交通為主體的嘛陸海空嘛還有中港嘛台中港還有蘇澳港石化工業核能發電廠"},{"start":53.072,"end":60.009,"text":"我想請教一下任市長你知道當時這個十大建設對我們台灣帶來什麼樣的效益"},{"start":63.221,"end":89.253,"text":"那就是孩子要當大人了就是一個政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要的重大的投資第一個是抵抗當時那個石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣是短期面長期就是你說的當大人就是說把台灣創造現代化的一個基礎建設然後也改善我們的投資環境那包括鋼鐵造船石化工業都可以提高我們的"},{"start":89.673,"end":114.057,"text":"一些原料的自主度 降低對外的依賴的程度為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎所以台灣今天的所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大建設基礎建設有非常高度的關係 對不對一定是非常有關那我想請教您 你覺得十大建設最大的工程有哪些人"},{"start":117.386,"end":140.827,"text":"大概孫益賢還有我們中綱那個趙耀東嘛那當然帶頭的大概是我們蔣經國前總統嘛那當然這裡面默默奉獻的會更多人啦會更多人默默奉獻更多的是哪一些人"},{"start":142.694,"end":161.602,"text":"那位都沒出名 他就常常這麼做我跟人事長講啦 就是你啦你知道嗎 就是跟你一樣奉公守法 兢兢業業為國家服務打拼的公務員 對不對沒有這些文官他沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛 對不對"},{"start":162.951,"end":179.54,"text":"公務人員本來就是一個國家安定穩定還有發展一個非常非常重要的因素可是他們平常很少被highlight出來他們是默默在做就是無名英雄無名英雄就當年"},{"start":180.734,"end":209.102,"text":"你會發現說除了一些優秀的政務官專業的一些我們講國營事業經營者還有就是一些非常優秀的文官專業認真然後忠誠然後為我們國家建設來打拼的公務員是他們打造今天台灣堅實的一個所謂的基礎建設跟經濟基礎那我再問你知道現在台灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業對不對"},{"start":211.332,"end":233.548,"text":"目前大家從十年前的自動性產業那這五六年就是直接就跨到半導體部分那當然未來還是會以AI為主體的一個產業然後它會延展出來比如像光通訊還有量子運算的相關的領域的還有一些"},{"start":237.49,"end":264.668,"text":"醫療科技的部分我覺得是台灣非常有機會的一個區塊那其中有一個我們講就是說等於是台灣高科技產業的孵化器就新竹科學園區嘛包括台積電啊當年在電機的時候也是你剛剛講的那些包括孫玉璇啊李國鼎啊很多優秀的政務官那打造這些所謂的我們講高科技的所謂的搖籃還是有一群無名的英雄默默無名的英雄是誰"},{"start":267.594,"end":291.874,"text":"你剛講過了嘛我提到從工研院出來的這些人坦白講那一個機關對台灣來講很重要工研院然後這裡面大概大家耳熟能詳的就是孫益謙以前在台電嘛後來有李國鼎嘛 KT嘛還有相關的這些人我覺得他always在這個領域會"},{"start":294.476,"end":303.707,"text":"給大家坐標一個非常無可期待的一個位置覺得市長講得很好我為什麼要問你這些事情知道嗎"},{"start":304.841,"end":332.557,"text":"因為你會看到在那個年代當中其實第一個我們整個社會的景象是這樣有一些非常優秀有遠見有潛在力有魄力的政務官然後帶著一群有專業有熱情為國家奉獻的公務員所以兩個合作起來打拼打造了今天台灣非常堅實的不管是產業的基礎還是我們講說是工業的基礎乃至於經濟發展的基礎"},{"start":334.858,"end":344.488,"text":"那當時的公務員說實在話任市長你也是一路公務員上來嘛對不對公務員在當時應該還算是一個算是還蠻光榮的行業吧對不對"},{"start":346.625,"end":368.144,"text":"穩定啦 穩定那光榮是覺得就是奉獻國家的一個蠻好的一個途徑非常好我跟任司長講我當兵退伍我也考上公務員考到高考分派到公平教育委員會當時我印象非常深刻當我回去跟爸爸媽媽講我考上公務員之後"},{"start":368.717,"end":384.533,"text":"我爸爸那开心的样子我相信任市长你应该有经历过这个过程吧没有被骂为什么要进国家机关代表你的能力很好这个你的父母亲不希望你当公务员是这个意思吗我要讲一件事拉回来一个重点就是事实上在过去的我们的所谓的"},{"start":390.448,"end":409.123,"text":"政治環境或是政府環境裡面公務員是很有光榮感的那時候國家也很照顧公務員那國家也很需要優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的整個支柱但是我想請問你跟過去比起來公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎還是嗎"},{"start":413.973,"end":436.388,"text":"整體來講是啦可是有一些時空環境的不一樣現在年輕人他對他的工作的那種期待他很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五他希望他的上班時間可以更加的輕鬆你講這個我不是很認同我也不認為什麼叫時代會改變什麼樣的人的習性"},{"start":437.697,"end":452.616,"text":"你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作啊如果自由自在又有好薪水又有好待遇又有好的退休保障的工作然後又有光榮感的工作我還是願意去做啊不要朝九晚五啊所以這跟時代無關"},{"start":454.028,"end":470.605,"text":"基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的可是為什麼以前我只是問你一件事跟以前跟20年前跟30年前好不用講跟10年前好了相比你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎"},{"start":473.627,"end":493.7,"text":"我覺得換個角度來看以前選擇的機會會比較少所以很多人選擇當老師 公務人員因為生活比較安定現在選擇也比較多所以我想以前選擇也很多有些經濟蓬勃發展的過程當中商業環境優渥還是很多不一樣的選擇"},{"start":494.941,"end":524.042,"text":"那我拿一個客觀數據 因為講感覺不準嘛講個客觀數據嘛你知道在馬英九執政的時候他公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人哪一年最高2009年啦50萬人啦50萬人 最高啦他平均大概保持到將近40萬嘛但是最高曾經到50萬嘛 對不對那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少"},{"start":527.046,"end":546.431,"text":"16萬啦大概不到2016萬啦如果從這個國民黨執政把政府所有的50萬做最高點來算到16萬那是掉7成啦掉7%那就算是以所謂40萬來算那也掉到6成啦少了6成欸"},{"start":547.796,"end":563.536,"text":"我想請問你這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的一個狀況公務人員今天為什麼報考人數大減你不要跟我講掃紙化喔台灣的掃紙化也沒有掃到說今天掉六成七成沒有喔 沒錯吧"},{"start":564.964,"end":585.66,"text":"沒有到七成 大概今年會到十一萬左右這樣的幅度還是蠻大的這樣的幅度大啊但是我也跟你講就是說也沒有到今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深啊 沒錯吧我覺得比較客觀來講應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣我要跟我們的主計長講"},{"start":589.002,"end":612.688,"text":"你講說經濟環境講年輕人選擇職業的多樣化這些都是每個時代都有啦有經濟有繁榮有低迷台灣這麼多年來都是如此但公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的那回頭為什麼要問這些事情為什麼跟你講一件事情請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停侃年金嗎停侃公務員年金嗎"},{"start":613.942,"end":637.069,"text":"我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體的那種潛藏負債的角度來看我跟任市長講 你知道我向來不為難你啦你現在主要的執政的政策不是你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向但我今天很客觀告訴你如果今天我們公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬 50萬"},{"start":639.329,"end":653.408,"text":"你年金砍到一直砍他還是維持這麼多報考人數代表這個起碼有個客觀指標他還是一個吸引人的職業現在不是啊我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金"},{"start":654.643,"end":677.1,"text":"今天要做適度的調整公務人員也沒反對喔他沒有國家一輩子付出奉獻那你所得替代一直砍砍砍現在砍到七成以下他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金的調整可是今天非常卑微是什麼因為已經砍到傷筋動骨了嘛我講白了 人事長你做人事長喔"},{"start":678.294,"end":686.29,"text":"公務人員體系的所有的用人的狀況你是最了解的你真的我不勉強你說這句話但我相信心知肚明"},{"start":687.276,"end":714.144,"text":"現在公務員其實光榮感是受很大的一個所謂的折損那他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇他也被現在政府尤其是退休保障有非常大的削減的時候他當然降低了他對所謂的職業的選擇的吸引力啊那為什麼我們今天要主張停砍停砍才是真改革因為你砍過頭你傷害的是國家啦"},{"start":715.686,"end":740.821,"text":"當年那麼多的文官奠基出來的台灣經濟的榮景今天你這樣去傷害他們不要講不公道你已經妨礙了國家的運作很多地方公務員也找不到老師也找不到人都有這個問題開始出現一個國家如果沒有好的文官來做支撐請問如何去因應多變的局面跟複雜的跟重要的國家建設跟政策呢"},{"start":741.701,"end":752.772,"text":"所以這邊我還是要再次呼籲一件事情真的也拜託今天我們的執政者或中央政府高抬貴手年金這個題目停砍才是真的改革謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時12分）謝謝主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早安。"],["羅委員智強：人事長早。請問人事長知道什麼是十大建設？有哪10個建設？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是蔣經國時代的嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對、對、對。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大概有高速公路、中鋼、中船。"],["羅委員智強：高速公路、中鋼、中船、中正國際機場，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：機場，大概是以交通為主體，還有一些產業的……"],["羅委員智強：中山高速公路。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：以交通為主體，陸、海、空，還有船港……"],["羅委員智強：臺中港、蘇澳港、石化工業、核能發電廠。我想請教一下人事長，你知道當時十大建設，對我們臺灣帶來什麼樣的效益？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就像小孩要轉大人那樣，就是政府引領一個國家要轉型一個很重要、重大的投資。"],["羅委員智強：對，第一個，是抵抗當時石油危機帶來的經濟不景氣，這是短期面，長期就是你說的轉大人，臺灣創造現代化的基礎建設，也改善我們的投資環境，包括鋼鐵、造船、石化工業，都可以提高我們一些原料的自主度，降低對外依賴的程度，為我們的工業轉型奠定非常好的基礎，所以臺灣今天所謂的經濟奇蹟跟這個十大基礎建設有非常高度的關係，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定是非常有關啦！"],["羅委員智強：我想請教您，你覺得十大建設最大的功臣有哪些人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大概有孫運璿，還有我們中鋼趙耀東，帶頭的是我們蔣經國前總統，當然這裡面默默奉獻的有更多人啦！"],["羅委員智強：默默奉獻更多的是指哪一些人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有些人都沒出名，他就默默做。"],["羅委員智強：我跟人事長說，就是你！你知道嗎？就是跟你一樣，奉公守法、兢兢業業，為國家服務、打拚的公務員，對不對？沒有這些文官，沒有辦法執行這些政務官的政策嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：公務人員本來就是國家安定、穩定，還有發展一個非常、非常重要的因素，可是他們平常很少被highlight出來。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們是默默在做，很默默在做。"],["羅委員智強：就是無名英雄。當年，你會發現除了一些優秀的政務官，我們講的一些專業的國營事業經營者，還有一些非常優秀的文官，專業、認真、忠誠，為我們國家建設在打拚的公務員，是他們打造了今天臺灣堅實的基礎建設跟經濟基礎。","那我再問，你知道現在臺灣其實我們的經濟產業裡面重中之重是高科技產業，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：從10年前的資通訊產業，這五、六年就直接跨到半導體，當然未來還是會以AI為主體的產業，它會延展出來，譬如像光通訊，還有量子運算相關的領域，還有醫療科技的部分，我覺得是臺灣非常有機會的區塊。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，但其中有一個我們講的，等於是臺灣高科技產業的孵化器，就是新竹科學園區，包括台積電，當年在奠基的時候，也是你剛剛講的那些人，包括孫運璿、李國鼎等很多優秀的政務官，打造這些高科技的搖籃，還是有一群默默無名的英雄，是誰？你剛講過了嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：從工研院出來的這一些人，坦白講，工研院對臺灣來講很重要，這裡面大家耳熟能詳的就是孫運璿以前在台電，後來有李國鼎K.T.，還有相關的這些人，我覺得他always在這個領域會是大家認為非常無可取代的位置。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得人事長講得很好，我為什麼要問你這些事情，知道嗎？因為你會看到，在那個年代當中，第一個，我們整個社會的景象是這樣，有一些非常優秀、有遠見、前瞻力、魄力的政務官，帶著一群有專業、熱情來為國家奉獻的公務員，所以兩個合作起來打拚，打造了今天臺灣非常堅實，不管是產業的基礎，還是我們講的工業基礎，乃至於經濟發展的基礎，當時的公務員說實在話，人事長，你也是一路公務員上來，公務員在當時應該還算是一個蠻光榮的行業，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：穩定啦！光榮的話，我覺得就是奉獻國家一個蠻好的途徑。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我跟人事長講，我當兵退伍也考上公務員，考過高考分派到公平交易委員會，我印象非常深刻，當我回去跟爸爸、媽媽講，我考上公務員之後，我媽、爸那開心的樣子，我相信人事長，你應該有經歷過這個過程吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我被罵，問我為什麼要去公家機關。"],["羅委員智強：代表你的能力很好，你父母親不希望你當公務員，是這個意思嗎？我要講一件事，拉回來一個重點，事實上，過去我們政治環境或是政府環境裡面，公務員是很有光榮感的，那時候國家也很照顧公務員，國家也很需要有優秀的文官作為我們今天政府的支柱，但是我想請問你，跟過去比起來，公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎？還是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：整體來講是啦！"],["羅委員智強：是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可是有些不一樣的時空環境，現在年輕人對他工作的期待，很多人不願意選擇朝九晚五，他希望他的上班時間可以更加輕鬆。"],["羅委員智強：人事長，你講這個我不是很認同啦！我也不認為時代會改變什麼樣人的習性啦！你也可以講我在當兵退伍那一年，我可能也不一定喜歡朝九晚五的工作，如果自由自在又有好薪水、又有好待遇、又有好的退休保障，然後又有光榮感的工作，我還是願意去做，不要朝九晚五啊，所以這跟時代無關。基本上有一個比較彈性自由的工作環境，那是每個時代都會有人嚮往的，可是為什麼以前……我就只問你一件事，跟以前比、跟20年前、跟30年前比，我們就講跟10年前相比好了，你覺得公務員還是一個吸引人的職業選擇嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得換個角度來看，以前選擇的機會比較少，所以很多人選擇當老師、公務人員，因為生活比較安定，但現在選擇也比較多，所以我想……"],["羅委員智強：以前選擇也很多啦！在經濟蓬勃發展過程當中，商業環境優渥，還是有很多不一樣的選擇。我拿一個客觀的數據來講，因為講感覺不準，我講個客觀數據，你知道在馬英九執政的時候，公務人員報考人數最高可以到多少人？哪一年最高？是2009年，50萬人啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：30、40萬以上……"],["羅委員智強：最高50萬人，它平均大概保持將近40萬，但是最高曾經到50萬，對不對？那你知道去年公務人員報考人數剩多少？16萬啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大概不到20。"],["羅委員智強：16萬啦！如果從國民黨執政馬政府時候的50萬最高點來算，到現在16萬，那是掉七成、70%，就算以40萬來算，那也掉到六成啦，少了六成耶！我想請問你，這客觀數據到底展現出什麼樣的狀況？今天公務人員為什麼報考人數大減？你不要跟我講少子化喔！臺灣的少子化也沒有少到會讓今天掉六成、七成喔，沒有喔，沒錯吧！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有到七成啦，今年大概會到11萬左右啦！降的幅度還是蠻大的……"],["羅委員智強：降的幅度大啊！但是我也跟你講，影響也沒有大到會讓今天公務人員報考人數跌幅這麼深，沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得比較客觀來講，應該是整個經濟環境跟以前真的很不一樣。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟人事長講，你講經濟環境、講年輕人選擇職業多樣化，這些每個時代都有，經濟有繁榮、有低迷，臺灣這麼多年來都是如此，但以前公務人員報考的人數是一直在上升的啊！回頭看為什麼我要問你這些，我想跟你講一件事情，請問你贊成今天國民黨主張的停砍公務員年金嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這個議題是要從國家整體潛藏負債的角度來看……"],["羅委員智強：我跟人事長講，你知道我向來不為難你，現在主要執政的政策不是……你也不敢講出跟執政政策不一樣的方向。我今天很客觀告訴你，如果今天公務人員報考人數還是一樣維持在40萬、50萬，年金一直砍它還是維持這麼多報考人數，代表這個起碼有個客觀指標，即公務員還是一個吸引人的職業，但現在不是啊！我們沒有反對今天所謂退休金或年金要做適度的調整，公務人員也沒反對，雖然他們為國家一輩子付出奉獻，所得替代率一直砍、砍、砍，現在砍到七成以下，他們還是願意接受這些所謂的年金調整。可是今天非常卑微是什麼？因為已經砍到傷筋見骨了，我講白了，你作為人事長，公務人員體系所有用人的狀況，你是最了解的，真的，我不勉強你說這句話，但我相信你心知肚明，其實現在公務員光榮感是受到很大的折損，他生活保障跟退休保障的待遇也被政府……尤其退休保障上有非常大的刪減、削減的時候，當然會降低了對他職業選擇的吸引力啊！","為什麼我們今天要主張停砍？停砍才是真改革，因為你砍過頭，你傷害的是國家啦！當年那麼多的文官奠基出來臺灣經濟的榮景，今天你這樣去傷害他們，不要講不公道，你已經妨礙了國家的運作，其實很多地方找不到公務員，連老師也找不到，都有這些問題已經開始出現。一個國家如果沒有好的文官來支撐，請問如何去因應多變的局面，以及執行複雜的、重要的國家建設跟政策呢？所以我還是要再次呼籲一件事情，真的也拜託今天我們的執政者、中央政府高抬貴手，針對年金這個題目，停砍才是真的改革，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。召委主持會議時不只要讓議事順暢，我也要注意大家的健康，我剛剛看到會議室ppm監測一直飆，從1,600降到1,100，二氧化碳應該要在1,000 ppm以內……"],["羅委員智強：我上去時就到1,400……"],["主席：沒有，沒有，你剛到1,100，現在又上去了，奇怪了，窗戶都已經打開了……"],["羅委員智強：我剛才是1,600，我有特別看。"],["主席：超過1,600 ppm人會嘔吐、會頭暈、會胸悶，所以我要注意大家的健康，再打開一個窗戶好不好？因為又升到1,400，這個就比較奇怪了，因為今天大家都有氣無力的，你看人事長說到快打瞌睡，質詢的大家都快要睡著了，這個就很怪，主席有義務維持會場……"],["羅委員智強：你昨天熬夜，現在怪它……"],["主席：不是，不是，我是真的在盯二氧化碳的濃度，像現在1,400了，等等看王鴻薇委員質詢的時候會不會再降下來。","我們現在請王鴻薇委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}}