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{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 769.266, \"end\": 769.546, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 769.546, \"end\": 769.566, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"續\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,979 --> 00:00:14,267\n謝謝主席有請龔部長跟水利署署長我們請龔部長跟水利署署長謝謝部長請問大概之前我提到過在北高雄的選區還有五條沒有規劃的試管區牌\n\n2\n00:00:26,884 --> 00:00:51,589\n這部分我希望能夠盡快啟動治理計劃大概在陸竹有兩三條永安還有橋頭這部分是水利應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局這個署長麻煩你了解一下好不好好就是這個都是我的選區這些都很重要那如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟跟指導的話很難去進行\n\n3\n00:00:53,349 --> 00:01:21,886\n所以這部分是不是請蘇萊爹來倒傻缸蘇頂好啦我們在下一期計劃馬上補助電競技作規劃的工作然後就按照委員的意見趕快來納入下一個階段辦理我回去我會跟水利市政部水利局講沒問題我會跟他一起合作是謝謝部長全力支持部長第二個議題想請教就是能源轉型的韌性\n\n4\n00:01:22,919 --> 00:01:38,022\n當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題第一個能源結構太集中化大概天然氣天然氣的儲量又不夠就天數也不足\n\n5\n00:01:38,723 --> 00:01:59,604\n那第二個就電網防禦力不足防禦力不足是不夠全面這主要是以氣候跟設備事故為主那如果暫時的時候有駭客入侵等等往暫時的攻擊能源封鎖等等這個也應該納入電網防禦力的提升那另外轉型的能源轉型的戰略空隙啊\n\n6\n00:02:00,601 --> 00:02:27,394\n所以我從反核到反核反對的反到反回的反所以你如果要到反回核電那可以最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR但是SMR你要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉所以在這種情況你那個綠電但是能源也上不來的話你這個戰略空區去怎麼處理所以第二個問題請教一下部長\n\n7\n00:02:28,514 --> 00:02:53,929\n這個台電在五千多億的這個韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在暫時的戰略防護總經理不過因為那個五千多億主要是大型的超高壓電網的分散是所以這部分並沒有包括防害啊或者暫時的攻擊等等這主要是說這個供電的穩定嘛\n\n8\n00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:13,250\n跟委員報告我們五六四五億是用於輸電級的韌性的強化就是輸電的穩定包括極端氣候的影響等等但並沒有包括在暫時的這些因應是我們配電級還有另外一個\n\n9\n00:03:14,590 --> 00:03:35,434\n計畫在進行如果沒有的話我是建議針對這個防禦力的部分要增加到這個如果暫時的時候怎麼樣確保這個供電的穩定跟強化電網的防禦力這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫啦是而不是在這五六十五億裡面特別針對暫時的時候這不曉得這個部長您的意見怎麼樣\n\n10\n00:03:40,434 --> 00:03:59,986\n對那個剛剛提到的這個5000多億主要是因為上一次我們那個超高壓電的那個太過集中在一個地方所以我們把它比較多元就是說極端氣候造成供電的不穩定嘛那這個部分是針對這個部分來做強化那我剛剛所提到就是說如果暫時的時候\n\n11\n00:04:01,767 --> 00:04:08,921\n但暫時發生的時候它成為供給的目標的時候我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化所以你們可能另外再提一個計畫那個王總\n\n12\n00:04:12,665 --> 00:04:39,970\n這個部分有在準備啦有在準備這個可能某些部分是不宜再太公開有在準備啦有在準備我就比較安心了那另外你們對SMR相關的研究可能也要一定的期升表SMR可能是未來可能的一個核能發電的一個一個措施跟作為這部分可能要有一個明確的時升表那我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下\n\n13\n00:04:40,745 --> 00:04:56,075\n因为现在研究方的话是核管所他们有投入大概4年大概是几亿的经费8亿的经费还是多少正在做研理那对经济部来讲的话将来如果\n\n14\n00:04:57,216 --> 00:05:24,928\nSMR的話我們是使用方啦是應用方啦所以我們密切的觀察研發方跟我們無關我是用其他的技術我們現在密切觀察因為全世界有雖然叫SMR但就有不同的冷卻技術正在都在推動當中我們是在應用階段我們是觀察說哪些它結果在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的那我們就可以應用那一個我們是應用面\n\n15\n00:05:26,949 --> 00:05:42,305\n另外這個關鍵的礦產這變成說大家不管是美日雙方或者是美中雙方在角力的一個重要的戰略物資這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法\n\n16\n00:05:43,166 --> 00:05:56,609\n那李蘇雅也在還有台電王佐也在我們有沒有建立相關的關鍵礦物的保健供應的措施啊或者關鍵礦物的保障回收相關的這個作為\n\n17\n00:05:58,109 --> 00:06:21,377\n現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃我們現在有一個計畫打算從明年就開始推動分成兩個部分一個當然是跟國際間整個因為我們是屬於需求方供應鏈裡面的需求方雖然是間接需求需求方就要確保我們一定供應嘛對第一個是配合國際間他們整體的因應的做法這是第一個第二個我們本身的部分我們本身的部分來講的話\n\n18\n00:06:23,164 --> 00:06:44,612\n有兩個一個是透過既有的這些回收再提煉再精煉另外一個我們事實上也跟有一些稀土的生產供應者怎麼樣讓我們台灣這個能不能提升到國與國的合作國與國的你現在是跟個別廠商嘛能不能提升到國與國比如主要的這些供應國\n\n19\n00:06:46,384 --> 00:07:06,456\n國與國的話就剛剛提到的就是國際供應鏈他們會有一致性的一個做法包括歐盟也好美國也好日本也好中國依靠他的稀土或者重要的礦產跟美國談判的一個重要的武器對不對所以我們必須要確保我們供應沒有問題所以必須要國與國做一些協商或者協議我們有沒有針對供應國或者來源國有一些國際協議\n\n20\n00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:42,500\n有一些我不方便讲是哪一国家但是有跟我们在做一些讨论必须确保它的供应没有问题这不仅是国家安全这也是产业的问题另外这个临安风电临安风电如果国产当初是国产化那国产化如果松绑之后那中国的一些经验包括钢铁包括石化等等面板这个都是用低价\n\n21\n00:07:43,536 --> 00:07:59,943\n去去搶他市場那如果國產化上榜之後會不會用這個中國用紅色的這個供應鏈用低價滲透讓我們國產化受到這個相關的影響因為我們禁止用中國的相關的零數如果他是洗產地之類的你們擦擦出來嗎\n\n22\n00:08:01,212 --> 00:08:15,377\n我們會查所以不能說讓中國的這些低價的變成說我們離岸風電的主要的來源或者是主要供應商再不行另外2025風電的目標現在有沒有在調整風電的裝置能量\n\n23\n00:08:21,186 --> 00:08:24,308\n5.7吧是不是還是多少5.3是到什麼時候到5.35.3是什麼時候的目標2025在2026年的11月會達到\n\n24\n00:08:36,079 --> 00:08:57,767\n現在大概將近是3點多GigaWatt3而已馬上出頭但是我們大概今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工那你覺得在2026現在馬上2026了你可以到5.3嗎是你可以如期達標可以我們現在的計畫看起來推進到目前為止大概都順利那是很順利嗎是\n\n25\n00:09:01,067 --> 00:09:28,914\n對就是說我們現在呢大概要完工的大概是我們Face1Face2服事的風電呢服事的部分呢服動式的是不是那個是正在朝你跟郭方方向也會往前不過那個是比較稍微沒有包括在5.3裡面嗎沒有包括在這裡面5.3你們這個署長你說是很順利在推動所以明年底可以達標明年的11月是可以達標我們現在要完工式\n\n26\n00:09:29,696 --> 00:09:54,317\n所以我觉得有任何障碍法律上的问题政治上的问题一定要让业者开发商很清楚了解我觉得他们这个跌跌撞撞一路走来好像碰到很多的问题一开始确实蛮多问题的到逾越问题补偿问题还有供应链的问题不过现在推动已经陆陆续续完成目前我们在商转的大概就有440座离岸风电风机了\n\n27\n00:09:55,287 --> 00:10:11,236\n另外嘉青站目前全國只有兩座一個在台南一個在高雄那未來對嘉青站我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣這個主委你當主委的時候你推動的\n\n28\n00:10:19,638 --> 00:10:37,333\n現在是示範性示範性然後呢中期目標呢因為你說2050我們有10%的發電要靠氫能那現在目前這個進度就根本就停滯不前只有兩座那個嘉青站目前終於有已經蓋好那我們是跟交通部合作\n\n29\n00:10:38,013 --> 00:10:55,309\n它是所謂的低碳運輸低碳載具部分那我們會配合交通部交通部會配合提供氫能公車那我們會依照交通部的規劃哪裡它有氫能公車的路線那我們中油公司就去搭配設這個氫能加氫站\n\n30\n00:10:55,629 --> 00:11:21,067\n你一定要明确的这政策指引因为这个成本很高技术也没有非常成熟你这还在示范还在示范需求也不是那么稳定是业者要不要去有信心去投入他没有信心他不会投入目前我们是要补贴交通部因为这个计划是交通部的无碳载具里面的交通部补贴公车我们会补助清冷\n\n31\n00:11:21,947 --> 00:11:46,030\n戰略不清楚半途而廢或者是沒有辦法順利推動新達海就是這樣子新達海最後你看五六十一賠掉了國產化也沒有達成技術也沒有上來到最後他還是一樣要終止如果我們怕這個你說2050有10%這個是部長您當主委的時候你提出的這個願景目標那現在你還在示範\n\n32\n00:11:47,780 --> 00:12:00,576\n對現在是在示範對你要有明確的戰略目標政策要怎麼去導引短中長期我覺得你只兩個示範那個示範那個高雄那個台南做完就沒有下一步了\n\n33\n00:12:02,893 --> 00:12:26,273\n因为氢能的部分它有分成几个部分一个是怎么样产氢然后氢怎么运输然后第三个是运用那应用的话刚刚提到的车用的部分是一部分那它也可以用来可能会用来发电那个就是您刚刚提到的可能将来可能接近10%可以用我们国家的氢能政策在哪里对\n\n34\n00:12:26,693 --> 00:12:49,566\n但是現在我們缺的問題就是產清跟運送清這個是一個比較大的問題國際間現在一直在討論這個部分日本是比較早開始但是運輸的部分他們也遭遇到一些成本上的一些問題不過我們還是會持續的看看日本的經驗我們可以學習但是他們比我們大概早了15、20年是謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員持續\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7979\t14267\t謝謝主席 有請龔部長跟水利署署長我們請龔部長跟水利署署長 謝謝部長 請問大概之前我提到過在北高雄的選區還有五條沒有規劃的試管區牌\n26884\t51589\t這部分我希望能夠盡快啟動治理計劃大概在陸竹有兩三條永安還有橋頭這部分是水利應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局這個署長麻煩你了解一下好不好好就是這個都是我的選區這些都很重要那如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟跟指導的話很難去進行\n53349\t81886\t所以這部分是不是請蘇萊爹來倒傻缸蘇頂 好啦我們在下一期計劃馬上補助電競技作規劃的工作然後就按照委員的意見趕快來納入下一個階段辦理我回去我會跟水利市政部水利局講沒問題 我會跟他一起合作是 謝謝部長全力支持 部長第二個議題想請教就是能源轉型的韌性\n82919\t98022\t當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題第一個能源結構太集中化大概天然氣天然氣的儲量又不夠就天數也不足\n98723\t119604\t那第二個就電網防禦力不足防禦力不足是不夠全面這主要是以氣候跟設備事故為主那如果暫時的時候有駭客入侵等等往暫時的攻擊能源封鎖等等這個也應該納入電網防禦力的提升那另外轉型的能源轉型的戰略空隙啊\n120601\t147394\t所以我從反核到反核反對的反到反回的反所以你如果要到反回核電那可以最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR但是SMR你要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉所以在這種情況你那個綠電但是能源也上不來的話你這個戰略空區去怎麼處理所以第二個問題請教一下部長\n148514\t173929\t這個台電在五千多億的這個韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在暫時的戰略防護總經理不過因為那個五千多億主要是大型的超高壓電網的分散是所以這部分並沒有包括防害啊或者暫時的攻擊等等這主要是說這個供電的穩定嘛\n175080\t193250\t跟委員報告我們五六四五億是用於輸電級的韌性的強化就是輸電的穩定包括極端氣候的影響等等但並沒有包括在暫時的這些因應是 我們配電級還有另外一個\n194590\t215434\t計畫在進行 如果沒有的話我是建議針對這個防禦力的部分要增加到這個如果暫時的時候怎麼樣確保這個供電的穩定跟強化電網的防禦力這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫啦是 而不是在這五六十五億裡面特別針對暫時的時候這不曉得這個部長您的意見怎麼樣\n220434\t239986\t對 那個剛剛提到的這個5000多億主要是因為上一次我們那個超高壓電的那個太過集中在一個地方所以我們把它比較多元就是說極端氣候造成供電的不穩定嘛那這個部分是針對這個部分來做強化那我剛剛所提到就是說如果暫時的時候\n241767\t248921\t但暫時發生的時候 它成為供給的目標的時候我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化所以你們可能另外再提一個計畫那個王總\n252665\t279970\t這個部分有在準備啦有在準備這個可能某些部分是不宜再太公開有在準備啦有在準備我就比較安心了那另外你們對SMR相關的研究可能也要一定的期升表SMR可能是未來可能的一個核能發電的一個一個措施跟作為這部分可能要有一個明確的時升表那我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下\n280745\t296075\t因为现在研究方的话是核管所他们有投入大概4年大概是几亿的经费8亿的经费还是多少正在做研理那对经济部来讲的话将来如果\n297216\t324928\tSMR的話我們是使用方啦是應用方啦所以我們密切的觀察研發方跟我們無關我是用其他的技術我們現在密切觀察因為全世界有雖然叫SMR但就有不同的冷卻技術正在都在推動當中我們是在應用階段我們是觀察說哪些它結果在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的那我們就可以應用那一個我們是應用面\n326949\t342305\t另外這個關鍵的礦產這變成說大家不管是美日雙方或者是美中雙方在角力的一個重要的戰略物資這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法\n343166\t356609\t那李蘇雅也在 還有台電王佐也在我們有沒有建立相關的關鍵礦物的保健供應的措施啊或者關鍵礦物的保障回收相關的這個作為\n358109\t381377\t現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃我們現在有一個計畫打算從明年就開始推動分成兩個部分一個當然是跟國際間整個因為我們是屬於需求方供應鏈裡面的需求方雖然是間接需求需求方就要確保我們一定供應嘛對第一個是配合國際間他們整體的因應的做法這是第一個第二個我們本身的部分我們本身的部分來講的話\n383164\t404612\t有兩個一個是透過既有的這些回收再提煉再精煉另外一個我們事實上也跟有一些稀土的生產供應者怎麼樣讓我們台灣這個能不能提升到國與國的合作國與國的你現在是跟個別廠商嘛能不能提升到國與國比如主要的這些供應國\n406384\t426456\t國與國的話就剛剛提到的就是國際供應鏈他們會有一致性的一個做法包括歐盟也好 美國也好 日本也好中國依靠他的稀土或者重要的礦產跟美國談判的一個重要的武器 對不對所以我們必須要確保我們供應沒有問題所以必須要國與國做一些協商或者協議我們有沒有針對供應國或者來源國有一些國際協議\n435120\t462500\t有一些我不方便讲是哪一国家但是有跟我们在做一些讨论必须确保它的供应没有问题这不仅是国家安全这也是产业的问题另外这个临安风电临安风电如果国产当初是国产化那国产化如果松绑之后那中国的一些经验包括钢铁包括石化等等面板这个都是用低价\n463536\t479943\t去去搶他市場那如果國產化上榜之後會不會用這個中國用紅色的這個供應鏈用低價滲透讓我們國產化受到這個相關的影響因為我們禁止用中國的相關的零數如果他是洗產地之類的你們擦擦出來嗎\n481212\t495377\t我們會查所以不能說讓中國的這些低價的變成說我們離岸風電的主要的來源或者是主要供應商再不行另外2025風電的目標現在有沒有在調整風電的裝置能量\n501186\t504308\t5.7吧是不是還是多少5.3是到什麼時候到5.35.3是什麼時候的目標2025在2026年的11月會達到\n516079\t537767\t現在大概將近是3點多GigaWatt3而已 馬上出頭但是我們大概今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工那你覺得在2026 現在馬上2026了你可以到5.3嗎是你可以如期達標可以 我們現在的計畫看起來推進到目前為止大概都順利那是很順利嗎是\n541067\t568914\t對 就是說我們現在呢大概要完工的大概是我們Face 1 Face 2服事的風電呢服事的部分呢服動式的是不是那個是正在朝你跟郭方方向也會往前不過那個是比較稍微沒有包括在5.3裡面嗎沒有包括在這裡面5.3你們這個署長你說是很順利在推動所以明年底可以達標明年的11月是可以達標我們現在要完工式\n569696\t594317\t所以我觉得有任何障碍法律上的问题政治上的问题一定要让业者开发商很清楚了解我觉得他们这个跌跌撞撞一路走来好像碰到很多的问题一开始确实蛮多问题的到逾越问题补偿问题还有供应链的问题不过现在推动已经陆陆续续完成目前我们在商转的大概就有440座离岸风电风机了\n595287\t611236\t另外嘉青站目前全國只有兩座一個在台南一個在高雄那未來對嘉青站我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣這個主委你當主委的時候你推動的\n619638\t637333\t現在是示範性示範性然後呢中期目標呢因為你說2050我們有10%的發電要靠氫能那現在目前這個進度就根本就停滯不前只有兩座那個嘉青站目前終於有已經蓋好那我們是跟交通部合作\n638013\t655309\t它是所謂的低碳運輸低碳載具部分那我們會配合交通部交通部會配合提供氫能公車那我們會依照交通部的規劃哪裡它有氫能公車的路線那我們中油公司就去搭配設這個氫能加氫站\n655629\t681067\t你一定要明确的这政策指引因为这个成本很高技术也没有非常成熟你这还在示范还在示范需求也不是那么稳定是业者要不要去有信心去投入他没有信心他不会投入目前我们是要补贴交通部因为这个计划是交通部的无碳载具里面的交通部补贴公车我们会补助清冷\n681947\t706030\t戰略不清楚半途而廢或者是沒有辦法順利推動新達海就是這樣子新達海最後你看五六十一賠掉了國產化也沒有達成技術也沒有上來到最後他還是一樣要終止如果我們怕這個你說2050有10%這個是部長您當主委的時候你提出的這個願景目標那現在你還在示範\n707780\t720576\t對 現在是在示範對 你要有明確的戰略目標政策要怎麼去導引短中長期我覺得你只兩個示範那個示範那個高雄那個台南做完就沒有下一步了\n722893\t746273\t因为氢能的部分它有分成几个部分一个是怎么样产氢然后氢怎么运输然后第三个是运用那应用的话刚刚提到的车用的部分是一部分那它也可以用来可能会用来发电那个就是您刚刚提到的可能将来可能接近10%可以用我们国家的氢能政策在哪里对\n746693\t769566\t但是現在我們缺的問題就是產清跟運送清這個是一個比較大的問題國際間現在一直在討論這個部分日本是比較早開始但是運輸的部分他們也遭遇到一些成本上的一些問題不過我們還是會持續的看看日本的經驗我們可以學習但是他們比我們大概早了15、20年是謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員持續\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請龔部長跟水利署署長我們請龔部長跟水利署署長 謝謝部長 請問大概之前我提到過在北高雄的選區還有五條沒有規劃的試管區牌\n這部分我希望能夠盡快啟動治理計劃大概在陸竹有兩三條永安還有橋頭這部分是水利應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局這個署長麻煩你了解一下好不好好就是這個都是我的選區這些都很重要那如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟跟指導的話很難去進行\n所以這部分是不是請蘇萊爹來倒傻缸蘇頂 好啦我們在下一期計劃馬上補助電競技作規劃的工作然後就按照委員的意見趕快來納入下一個階段辦理我回去我會跟水利市政部水利局講沒問題 我會跟他一起合作是 謝謝部長全力支持 部長第二個議題想請教就是能源轉型的韌性\n當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題第一個能源結構太集中化大概天然氣天然氣的儲量又不夠就天數也不足\n那第二個就電網防禦力不足防禦力不足是不夠全面這主要是以氣候跟設備事故為主那如果暫時的時候有駭客入侵等等往暫時的攻擊能源封鎖等等這個也應該納入電網防禦力的提升那另外轉型的能源轉型的戰略空隙啊\n所以我從反核到反核反對的反到反回的反所以你如果要到反回核電那可以最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR但是SMR你要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉所以在這種情況你那個綠電但是能源也上不來的話你這個戰略空區去怎麼處理所以第二個問題請教一下部長\n這個台電在五千多億的這個韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在暫時的戰略防護總經理不過因為那個五千多億主要是大型的超高壓電網的分散是所以這部分並沒有包括防害啊或者暫時的攻擊等等這主要是說這個供電的穩定嘛\n跟委員報告我們五六四五億是用於輸電級的韌性的強化就是輸電的穩定包括極端氣候的影響等等但並沒有包括在暫時的這些因應是 我們配電級還有另外一個\n計畫在進行 如果沒有的話我是建議針對這個防禦力的部分要增加到這個如果暫時的時候怎麼樣確保這個供電的穩定跟強化電網的防禦力這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫啦是 而不是在這五六十五億裡面特別針對暫時的時候這不曉得這個部長您的意見怎麼樣\n對 那個剛剛提到的這個5000多億主要是因為上一次我們那個超高壓電的那個太過集中在一個地方所以我們把它比較多元就是說極端氣候造成供電的不穩定嘛那這個部分是針對這個部分來做強化那我剛剛所提到就是說如果暫時的時候\n但暫時發生的時候 它成為供給的目標的時候我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化所以你們可能另外再提一個計畫那個王總\n這個部分有在準備啦有在準備這個可能某些部分是不宜再太公開有在準備啦有在準備我就比較安心了那另外你們對SMR相關的研究可能也要一定的期升表SMR可能是未來可能的一個核能發電的一個一個措施跟作為這部分可能要有一個明確的時升表那我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下\n因为现在研究方的话是核管所他们有投入大概4年大概是几亿的经费8亿的经费还是多少正在做研理那对经济部来讲的话将来如果\nSMR的話我們是使用方啦是應用方啦所以我們密切的觀察研發方跟我們無關我是用其他的技術我們現在密切觀察因為全世界有雖然叫SMR但就有不同的冷卻技術正在都在推動當中我們是在應用階段我們是觀察說哪些它結果在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的那我們就可以應用那一個我們是應用面\n另外這個關鍵的礦產這變成說大家不管是美日雙方或者是美中雙方在角力的一個重要的戰略物資這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法\n那李蘇雅也在 還有台電王佐也在我們有沒有建立相關的關鍵礦物的保健供應的措施啊或者關鍵礦物的保障回收相關的這個作為\n現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃我們現在有一個計畫打算從明年就開始推動分成兩個部分一個當然是跟國際間整個因為我們是屬於需求方供應鏈裡面的需求方雖然是間接需求需求方就要確保我們一定供應嘛對第一個是配合國際間他們整體的因應的做法這是第一個第二個我們本身的部分我們本身的部分來講的話\n有兩個一個是透過既有的這些回收再提煉再精煉另外一個我們事實上也跟有一些稀土的生產供應者怎麼樣讓我們台灣這個能不能提升到國與國的合作國與國的你現在是跟個別廠商嘛能不能提升到國與國比如主要的這些供應國\n國與國的話就剛剛提到的就是國際供應鏈他們會有一致性的一個做法包括歐盟也好 美國也好 日本也好中國依靠他的稀土或者重要的礦產跟美國談判的一個重要的武器 對不對所以我們必須要確保我們供應沒有問題所以必須要國與國做一些協商或者協議我們有沒有針對供應國或者來源國有一些國際協議\n有一些我不方便讲是哪一国家但是有跟我们在做一些讨论必须确保它的供应没有问题这不仅是国家安全这也是产业的问题另外这个临安风电临安风电如果国产当初是国产化那国产化如果松绑之后那中国的一些经验包括钢铁包括石化等等面板这个都是用低价\n去去搶他市場那如果國產化上榜之後會不會用這個中國用紅色的這個供應鏈用低價滲透讓我們國產化受到這個相關的影響因為我們禁止用中國的相關的零數如果他是洗產地之類的你們擦擦出來嗎\n我們會查所以不能說讓中國的這些低價的變成說我們離岸風電的主要的來源或者是主要供應商再不行另外2025風電的目標現在有沒有在調整風電的裝置能量\n5.7吧是不是還是多少5.3是到什麼時候到5.35.3是什麼時候的目標2025在2026年的11月會達到\n現在大概將近是3點多GigaWatt3而已 馬上出頭但是我們大概今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工那你覺得在2026 現在馬上2026了你可以到5.3嗎是你可以如期達標可以 我們現在的計畫看起來推進到目前為止大概都順利那是很順利嗎是\n對 就是說我們現在呢大概要完工的大概是我們Face 1 Face 2服事的風電呢服事的部分呢服動式的是不是那個是正在朝你跟郭方方向也會往前不過那個是比較稍微沒有包括在5.3裡面嗎沒有包括在這裡面5.3你們這個署長你說是很順利在推動所以明年底可以達標明年的11月是可以達標我們現在要完工式\n所以我觉得有任何障碍法律上的问题政治上的问题一定要让业者开发商很清楚了解我觉得他们这个跌跌撞撞一路走来好像碰到很多的问题一开始确实蛮多问题的到逾越问题补偿问题还有供应链的问题不过现在推动已经陆陆续续完成目前我们在商转的大概就有440座离岸风电风机了\n另外嘉青站目前全國只有兩座一個在台南一個在高雄那未來對嘉青站我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣這個主委你當主委的時候你推動的\n現在是示範性示範性然後呢中期目標呢因為你說2050我們有10%的發電要靠氫能那現在目前這個進度就根本就停滯不前只有兩座那個嘉青站目前終於有已經蓋好那我們是跟交通部合作\n它是所謂的低碳運輸低碳載具部分那我們會配合交通部交通部會配合提供氫能公車那我們會依照交通部的規劃哪裡它有氫能公車的路線那我們中油公司就去搭配設這個氫能加氫站\n你一定要明确的这政策指引因为这个成本很高技术也没有非常成熟你这还在示范还在示范需求也不是那么稳定是业者要不要去有信心去投入他没有信心他不会投入目前我们是要补贴交通部因为这个计划是交通部的无碳载具里面的交通部补贴公车我们会补助清冷\n戰略不清楚半途而廢或者是沒有辦法順利推動新達海就是這樣子新達海最後你看五六十一賠掉了國產化也沒有達成技術也沒有上來到最後他還是一樣要終止如果我們怕這個你說2050有10%這個是部長您當主委的時候你提出的這個願景目標那現在你還在示範\n對 現在是在示範對 你要有明確的戰略目標政策要怎麼去導引短中長期我覺得你只兩個示範那個示範那個高雄那個台南做完就沒有下一步了\n因为氢能的部分它有分成几个部分一个是怎么样产氢然后氢怎么运输然后第三个是运用那应用的话刚刚提到的车用的部分是一部分那它也可以用来可能会用来发电那个就是您刚刚提到的可能将来可能接近10%可以用我们国家的氢能政策在哪里对\n但是現在我們缺的問題就是產清跟運送清這個是一個比較大的問題國際間現在一直在討論這個部分日本是比較早開始但是運輸的部分他們也遭遇到一些成本上的一些問題不過我們還是會持續的看看日本的經驗我們可以學習但是他們比我們大概早了15、20年是謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員持續\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.979 --> 00:14.267\n謝謝主席有請龔部長跟水利署署長我們請龔部長跟水利署署長謝謝部長請問大概之前我提到過在北高雄的選區還有五條沒有規劃的試管區牌\n\n00:26.884 --> 00:51.589\n這部分我希望能夠盡快啟動治理計劃大概在陸竹有兩三條永安還有橋頭這部分是水利應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局這個署長麻煩你了解一下好不好好就是這個都是我的選區這些都很重要那如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟跟指導的話很難去進行\n\n00:53.349 --> 01:21.886\n所以這部分是不是請蘇萊爹來倒傻缸蘇頂好啦我們在下一期計劃馬上補助電競技作規劃的工作然後就按照委員的意見趕快來納入下一個階段辦理我回去我會跟水利市政部水利局講沒問題我會跟他一起合作是謝謝部長全力支持部長第二個議題想請教就是能源轉型的韌性\n\n01:22.919 --> 01:38.022\n當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題第一個能源結構太集中化大概天然氣天然氣的儲量又不夠就天數也不足\n\n01:38.723 --> 01:59.604\n那第二個就電網防禦力不足防禦力不足是不夠全面這主要是以氣候跟設備事故為主那如果暫時的時候有駭客入侵等等往暫時的攻擊能源封鎖等等這個也應該納入電網防禦力的提升那另外轉型的能源轉型的戰略空隙啊\n\n02:00.601 --> 02:27.394\n所以我從反核到反核反對的反到反回的反所以你如果要到反回核電那可以最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR但是SMR你要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉所以在這種情況你那個綠電但是能源也上不來的話你這個戰略空區去怎麼處理所以第二個問題請教一下部長\n\n02:28.514 --> 02:53.929\n這個台電在五千多億的這個韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在暫時的戰略防護總經理不過因為那個五千多億主要是大型的超高壓電網的分散是所以這部分並沒有包括防害啊或者暫時的攻擊等等這主要是說這個供電的穩定嘛\n\n02:55.080 --> 03:13.250\n跟委員報告我們五六四五億是用於輸電級的韌性的強化就是輸電的穩定包括極端氣候的影響等等但並沒有包括在暫時的這些因應是我們配電級還有另外一個\n\n03:14.590 --> 03:35.434\n計畫在進行如果沒有的話我是建議針對這個防禦力的部分要增加到這個如果暫時的時候怎麼樣確保這個供電的穩定跟強化電網的防禦力這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫啦是而不是在這五六十五億裡面特別針對暫時的時候這不曉得這個部長您的意見怎麼樣\n\n03:40.434 --> 03:59.986\n對那個剛剛提到的這個5000多億主要是因為上一次我們那個超高壓電的那個太過集中在一個地方所以我們把它比較多元就是說極端氣候造成供電的不穩定嘛那這個部分是針對這個部分來做強化那我剛剛所提到就是說如果暫時的時候\n\n04:01.767 --> 04:08.921\n但暫時發生的時候它成為供給的目標的時候我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化所以你們可能另外再提一個計畫那個王總\n\n04:12.665 --> 04:39.970\n這個部分有在準備啦有在準備這個可能某些部分是不宜再太公開有在準備啦有在準備我就比較安心了那另外你們對SMR相關的研究可能也要一定的期升表SMR可能是未來可能的一個核能發電的一個一個措施跟作為這部分可能要有一個明確的時升表那我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下\n\n04:40.745 --> 04:56.075\n因为现在研究方的话是核管所他们有投入大概4年大概是几亿的经费8亿的经费还是多少正在做研理那对经济部来讲的话将来如果\n\n04:57.216 --> 05:24.928\nSMR的話我們是使用方啦是應用方啦所以我們密切的觀察研發方跟我們無關我是用其他的技術我們現在密切觀察因為全世界有雖然叫SMR但就有不同的冷卻技術正在都在推動當中我們是在應用階段我們是觀察說哪些它結果在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的那我們就可以應用那一個我們是應用面\n\n05:26.949 --> 05:42.305\n另外這個關鍵的礦產這變成說大家不管是美日雙方或者是美中雙方在角力的一個重要的戰略物資這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法\n\n05:43.166 --> 05:56.609\n那李蘇雅也在還有台電王佐也在我們有沒有建立相關的關鍵礦物的保健供應的措施啊或者關鍵礦物的保障回收相關的這個作為\n\n05:58.109 --> 06:21.377\n現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃我們現在有一個計畫打算從明年就開始推動分成兩個部分一個當然是跟國際間整個因為我們是屬於需求方供應鏈裡面的需求方雖然是間接需求需求方就要確保我們一定供應嘛對第一個是配合國際間他們整體的因應的做法這是第一個第二個我們本身的部分我們本身的部分來講的話\n\n06:23.164 --> 06:44.612\n有兩個一個是透過既有的這些回收再提煉再精煉另外一個我們事實上也跟有一些稀土的生產供應者怎麼樣讓我們台灣這個能不能提升到國與國的合作國與國的你現在是跟個別廠商嘛能不能提升到國與國比如主要的這些供應國\n\n06:46.384 --> 07:06.456\n國與國的話就剛剛提到的就是國際供應鏈他們會有一致性的一個做法包括歐盟也好美國也好日本也好中國依靠他的稀土或者重要的礦產跟美國談判的一個重要的武器對不對所以我們必須要確保我們供應沒有問題所以必須要國與國做一些協商或者協議我們有沒有針對供應國或者來源國有一些國際協議\n\n07:15.120 --> 07:42.500\n有一些我不方便讲是哪一国家但是有跟我们在做一些讨论必须确保它的供应没有问题这不仅是国家安全这也是产业的问题另外这个临安风电临安风电如果国产当初是国产化那国产化如果松绑之后那中国的一些经验包括钢铁包括石化等等面板这个都是用低价\n\n07:43.536 --> 07:59.943\n去去搶他市場那如果國產化上榜之後會不會用這個中國用紅色的這個供應鏈用低價滲透讓我們國產化受到這個相關的影響因為我們禁止用中國的相關的零數如果他是洗產地之類的你們擦擦出來嗎\n\n08:01.212 --> 08:15.377\n我們會查所以不能說讓中國的這些低價的變成說我們離岸風電的主要的來源或者是主要供應商再不行另外2025風電的目標現在有沒有在調整風電的裝置能量\n\n08:21.186 --> 08:24.308\n5.7吧是不是還是多少5.3是到什麼時候到5.35.3是什麼時候的目標2025在2026年的11月會達到\n\n08:36.079 --> 08:57.767\n現在大概將近是3點多GigaWatt3而已馬上出頭但是我們大概今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工那你覺得在2026現在馬上2026了你可以到5.3嗎是你可以如期達標可以我們現在的計畫看起來推進到目前為止大概都順利那是很順利嗎是\n\n09:01.067 --> 09:28.914\n對就是說我們現在呢大概要完工的大概是我們Face1Face2服事的風電呢服事的部分呢服動式的是不是那個是正在朝你跟郭方方向也會往前不過那個是比較稍微沒有包括在5.3裡面嗎沒有包括在這裡面5.3你們這個署長你說是很順利在推動所以明年底可以達標明年的11月是可以達標我們現在要完工式\n\n09:29.696 --> 09:54.317\n所以我觉得有任何障碍法律上的问题政治上的问题一定要让业者开发商很清楚了解我觉得他们这个跌跌撞撞一路走来好像碰到很多的问题一开始确实蛮多问题的到逾越问题补偿问题还有供应链的问题不过现在推动已经陆陆续续完成目前我们在商转的大概就有440座离岸风电风机了\n\n09:55.287 --> 10:11.236\n另外嘉青站目前全國只有兩座一個在台南一個在高雄那未來對嘉青站我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣這個主委你當主委的時候你推動的\n\n10:19.638 --> 10:37.333\n現在是示範性示範性然後呢中期目標呢因為你說2050我們有10%的發電要靠氫能那現在目前這個進度就根本就停滯不前只有兩座那個嘉青站目前終於有已經蓋好那我們是跟交通部合作\n\n10:38.013 --> 10:55.309\n它是所謂的低碳運輸低碳載具部分那我們會配合交通部交通部會配合提供氫能公車那我們會依照交通部的規劃哪裡它有氫能公車的路線那我們中油公司就去搭配設這個氫能加氫站\n\n10:55.629 --> 11:21.067\n你一定要明确的这政策指引因为这个成本很高技术也没有非常成熟你这还在示范还在示范需求也不是那么稳定是业者要不要去有信心去投入他没有信心他不会投入目前我们是要补贴交通部因为这个计划是交通部的无碳载具里面的交通部补贴公车我们会补助清冷\n\n11:21.947 --> 11:46.030\n戰略不清楚半途而廢或者是沒有辦法順利推動新達海就是這樣子新達海最後你看五六十一賠掉了國產化也沒有達成技術也沒有上來到最後他還是一樣要終止如果我們怕這個你說2050有10%這個是部長您當主委的時候你提出的這個願景目標那現在你還在示範\n\n11:47.780 --> 12:00.576\n對現在是在示範對你要有明確的戰略目標政策要怎麼去導引短中長期我覺得你只兩個示範那個示範那個高雄那個台南做完就沒有下一步了\n\n12:02.893 --> 12:26.273\n因为氢能的部分它有分成几个部分一个是怎么样产氢然后氢怎么运输然后第三个是运用那应用的话刚刚提到的车用的部分是一部分那它也可以用来可能会用来发电那个就是您刚刚提到的可能将来可能接近10%可以用我们国家的氢能政策在哪里对\n\n12:26.693 --> 12:49.566\n但是現在我們缺的問題就是產清跟運送清這個是一個比較大的問題國際間現在一直在討論這個部分日本是比較早開始但是運輸的部分他們也遭遇到一些成本上的一些問題不過我們還是會持續的看看日本的經驗我們可以學習但是他們比我們大概早了15、20年是謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員持續\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.979,"end":14.267,"text":"謝謝主席 有請龔部長跟水利署署長我們請龔部長跟水利署署長 謝謝部長 請問大概之前我提到過在北高雄的選區還有五條沒有規劃的試管區牌"},{"start":26.884,"end":51.589,"text":"這部分我希望能夠盡快啟動治理計劃大概在陸竹有兩三條永安還有橋頭這部分是水利應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局這個署長麻煩你了解一下好不好好就是這個都是我的選區這些都很重要那如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟跟指導的話很難去進行"},{"start":53.349,"end":81.886,"text":"所以這部分是不是請蘇萊爹來倒傻缸蘇頂 好啦我們在下一期計劃馬上補助電競技作規劃的工作然後就按照委員的意見趕快來納入下一個階段辦理我回去我會跟水利市政部水利局講沒問題 我會跟他一起合作是 謝謝部長全力支持 部長第二個議題想請教就是能源轉型的韌性"},{"start":82.919,"end":98.022,"text":"當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題第一個能源結構太集中化大概天然氣天然氣的儲量又不夠就天數也不足"},{"start":98.723,"end":119.604,"text":"那第二個就電網防禦力不足防禦力不足是不夠全面這主要是以氣候跟設備事故為主那如果暫時的時候有駭客入侵等等往暫時的攻擊能源封鎖等等這個也應該納入電網防禦力的提升那另外轉型的能源轉型的戰略空隙啊"},{"start":120.601,"end":147.394,"text":"所以我從反核到反核反對的反到反回的反所以你如果要到反回核電那可以最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR但是SMR你要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉所以在這種情況你那個綠電但是能源也上不來的話你這個戰略空區去怎麼處理所以第二個問題請教一下部長"},{"start":148.514,"end":173.929,"text":"這個台電在五千多億的這個韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在暫時的戰略防護總經理不過因為那個五千多億主要是大型的超高壓電網的分散是所以這部分並沒有包括防害啊或者暫時的攻擊等等這主要是說這個供電的穩定嘛"},{"start":175.08,"end":193.25,"text":"跟委員報告我們五六四五億是用於輸電級的韌性的強化就是輸電的穩定包括極端氣候的影響等等但並沒有包括在暫時的這些因應是 我們配電級還有另外一個"},{"start":194.59,"end":215.434,"text":"計畫在進行 如果沒有的話我是建議針對這個防禦力的部分要增加到這個如果暫時的時候怎麼樣確保這個供電的穩定跟強化電網的防禦力這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫啦是 而不是在這五六十五億裡面特別針對暫時的時候這不曉得這個部長您的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":220.434,"end":239.986,"text":"對 那個剛剛提到的這個5000多億主要是因為上一次我們那個超高壓電的那個太過集中在一個地方所以我們把它比較多元就是說極端氣候造成供電的不穩定嘛那這個部分是針對這個部分來做強化那我剛剛所提到就是說如果暫時的時候"},{"start":241.767,"end":248.921,"text":"但暫時發生的時候 它成為供給的目標的時候我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化所以你們可能另外再提一個計畫那個王總"},{"start":252.665,"end":279.97,"text":"這個部分有在準備啦有在準備這個可能某些部分是不宜再太公開有在準備啦有在準備我就比較安心了那另外你們對SMR相關的研究可能也要一定的期升表SMR可能是未來可能的一個核能發電的一個一個措施跟作為這部分可能要有一個明確的時升表那我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下"},{"start":280.745,"end":296.075,"text":"因为现在研究方的话是核管所他们有投入大概4年大概是几亿的经费8亿的经费还是多少正在做研理那对经济部来讲的话将来如果"},{"start":297.216,"end":324.928,"text":"SMR的話我們是使用方啦是應用方啦所以我們密切的觀察研發方跟我們無關我是用其他的技術我們現在密切觀察因為全世界有雖然叫SMR但就有不同的冷卻技術正在都在推動當中我們是在應用階段我們是觀察說哪些它結果在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的那我們就可以應用那一個我們是應用面"},{"start":326.949,"end":342.305,"text":"另外這個關鍵的礦產這變成說大家不管是美日雙方或者是美中雙方在角力的一個重要的戰略物資這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法"},{"start":343.166,"end":356.609,"text":"那李蘇雅也在 還有台電王佐也在我們有沒有建立相關的關鍵礦物的保健供應的措施啊或者關鍵礦物的保障回收相關的這個作為"},{"start":358.109,"end":381.377,"text":"現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃我們現在有一個計畫打算從明年就開始推動分成兩個部分一個當然是跟國際間整個因為我們是屬於需求方供應鏈裡面的需求方雖然是間接需求需求方就要確保我們一定供應嘛對第一個是配合國際間他們整體的因應的做法這是第一個第二個我們本身的部分我們本身的部分來講的話"},{"start":383.164,"end":404.612,"text":"有兩個一個是透過既有的這些回收再提煉再精煉另外一個我們事實上也跟有一些稀土的生產供應者怎麼樣讓我們台灣這個能不能提升到國與國的合作國與國的你現在是跟個別廠商嘛能不能提升到國與國比如主要的這些供應國"},{"start":406.384,"end":426.456,"text":"國與國的話就剛剛提到的就是國際供應鏈他們會有一致性的一個做法包括歐盟也好 美國也好 日本也好中國依靠他的稀土或者重要的礦產跟美國談判的一個重要的武器 對不對所以我們必須要確保我們供應沒有問題所以必須要國與國做一些協商或者協議我們有沒有針對供應國或者來源國有一些國際協議"},{"start":435.12,"end":462.5,"text":"有一些我不方便讲是哪一国家但是有跟我们在做一些讨论必须确保它的供应没有问题这不仅是国家安全这也是产业的问题另外这个临安风电临安风电如果国产当初是国产化那国产化如果松绑之后那中国的一些经验包括钢铁包括石化等等面板这个都是用低价"},{"start":463.536,"end":479.943,"text":"去去搶他市場那如果國產化上榜之後會不會用這個中國用紅色的這個供應鏈用低價滲透讓我們國產化受到這個相關的影響因為我們禁止用中國的相關的零數如果他是洗產地之類的你們擦擦出來嗎"},{"start":481.212,"end":495.377,"text":"我們會查所以不能說讓中國的這些低價的變成說我們離岸風電的主要的來源或者是主要供應商再不行另外2025風電的目標現在有沒有在調整風電的裝置能量"},{"start":501.186,"end":504.308,"text":"5.7吧是不是還是多少5.3是到什麼時候到5.35.3是什麼時候的目標2025在2026年的11月會達到"},{"start":516.079,"end":537.767,"text":"現在大概將近是3點多GigaWatt3而已 馬上出頭但是我們大概今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工那你覺得在2026 現在馬上2026了你可以到5.3嗎是你可以如期達標可以 我們現在的計畫看起來推進到目前為止大概都順利那是很順利嗎是"},{"start":541.067,"end":568.914,"text":"對 就是說我們現在呢大概要完工的大概是我們Face 1 Face 2服事的風電呢服事的部分呢服動式的是不是那個是正在朝你跟郭方方向也會往前不過那個是比較稍微沒有包括在5.3裡面嗎沒有包括在這裡面5.3你們這個署長你說是很順利在推動所以明年底可以達標明年的11月是可以達標我們現在要完工式"},{"start":569.696,"end":594.317,"text":"所以我觉得有任何障碍法律上的问题政治上的问题一定要让业者开发商很清楚了解我觉得他们这个跌跌撞撞一路走来好像碰到很多的问题一开始确实蛮多问题的到逾越问题补偿问题还有供应链的问题不过现在推动已经陆陆续续完成目前我们在商转的大概就有440座离岸风电风机了"},{"start":595.287,"end":611.236,"text":"另外嘉青站目前全國只有兩座一個在台南一個在高雄那未來對嘉青站我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣這個主委你當主委的時候你推動的"},{"start":619.638,"end":637.333,"text":"現在是示範性示範性然後呢中期目標呢因為你說2050我們有10%的發電要靠氫能那現在目前這個進度就根本就停滯不前只有兩座那個嘉青站目前終於有已經蓋好那我們是跟交通部合作"},{"start":638.013,"end":655.309,"text":"它是所謂的低碳運輸低碳載具部分那我們會配合交通部交通部會配合提供氫能公車那我們會依照交通部的規劃哪裡它有氫能公車的路線那我們中油公司就去搭配設這個氫能加氫站"},{"start":655.629,"end":681.067,"text":"你一定要明确的这政策指引因为这个成本很高技术也没有非常成熟你这还在示范还在示范需求也不是那么稳定是业者要不要去有信心去投入他没有信心他不会投入目前我们是要补贴交通部因为这个计划是交通部的无碳载具里面的交通部补贴公车我们会补助清冷"},{"start":681.947,"end":706.03,"text":"戰略不清楚半途而廢或者是沒有辦法順利推動新達海就是這樣子新達海最後你看五六十一賠掉了國產化也沒有達成技術也沒有上來到最後他還是一樣要終止如果我們怕這個你說2050有10%這個是部長您當主委的時候你提出的這個願景目標那現在你還在示範"},{"start":707.78,"end":720.576,"text":"對 現在是在示範對 你要有明確的戰略目標政策要怎麼去導引短中長期我覺得你只兩個示範那個示範那個高雄那個台南做完就沒有下一步了"},{"start":722.893,"end":746.273,"text":"因为氢能的部分它有分成几个部分一个是怎么样产氢然后氢怎么运输然后第三个是运用那应用的话刚刚提到的车用的部分是一部分那它也可以用来可能会用来发电那个就是您刚刚提到的可能将来可能接近10%可以用我们国家的氢能政策在哪里对"},{"start":746.693,"end":769.566,"text":"但是現在我們缺的問題就是產清跟運送清這個是一個比較大的問題國際間現在一直在討論這個部分日本是比較早開始但是運輸的部分他們也遭遇到一些成本上的一些問題不過我們還是會持續的看看日本的經驗我們可以學習但是他們比我們大概早了15、20年是謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員持續"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":480,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請龔部長跟水利署署長。"],["主席：我們請龔部長跟水利署署長，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，大概之前我提到過在北高雄我的選區還有5條沒有規劃的市管區排，這部分我希望能夠儘快啟動治理計畫，大概在路竹有3條，還有永安及橋頭，這部分應該是水利署要去協助地方水利局，署長，麻煩你了解一下，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：好。"],["邱委員志偉：這都是我的選區，這些都很重要，如果水利局沒有水利署的協助跟指導的話很難去進行，所以這部分是不是請署裡面來幫忙，署長，好嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：跟委員報告，我們在下一期計畫會馬上補助地方政府做規劃的工作，然後就會按照委員的意見趕快納入下一個階段辦理，沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：回去我會跟高雄市政府水利局講。"],["林署長元鵬：沒問題，我們會跟他們一起合作。"],["邱委員志偉：說署裡面會全力支持。"],["林署長元鵬：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：部長會全力支持嘛？部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：支持、支持。"],["邱委員志偉：第二個議題想請教能源轉型的韌性，當然這個部分我們幾個能源轉型必須要克服的重大議題：第一個，能源結構太集中化，大概是天然氣，天然氣的儲量又不夠，天數也不足；第二個，電網防禦力不足，防禦力不足主要是不夠全面、主要是以氣候與設備事故為主，如果戰時有駭客入侵、戰時攻擊、能源封鎖等等，這個也應該納入電網防禦力的的提升；另外，能源轉型的戰略空隙，我從反核到返核，反對「反」到返回的「返」，就是說如果要返回核電，最能夠接受或者比較有共識的是用SMR，但是SMR要成熟商轉大概10年以上跑不掉，所以在這種情況，綠電、再生能源也上不來的話，這個戰略空隙怎麼處理？所以第一個問題請教一下部長，台電在五千多億的韌性計畫裡面有沒有包括在戰時的戰略防護？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為這個五千多億主要是大型超高壓電網的分散。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這部分並沒有包括防駭或者戰時的攻擊等等，主要是供電的穩定，是不是？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我們5,645億是用於輸電級的韌性強化。"],["邱委員志偉：所以就是輸電的穩定，包括極端氣候的影響等等，但並沒有包括在戰時的這些因應嘛？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，我們配電級還有另外一個計畫在進行當中。"],["邱委員志偉：如果沒有的話，我是建議針對防禦的部分要增加如果戰時的時候怎麼樣確保供電的穩定及強化電網的防禦力，這部分可能要有一個另外的計畫。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["邱委員志偉：而不是在這5,645億裡面，我們特別針對戰時的時候，不曉得部長您的意見怎麼樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：剛剛提到的五千多億，主要是因為上一次超高壓電太過集中在一個地方，所以我們把它比較多元……"],["邱委員志偉：極端氣候造成供電的不穩定，這個部分是針對這個部分強化，但我剛所提到就是，如果戰時的時候，一旦戰事發生，它成為攻擊目標的時候，我們怎麼樣去讓它的韌性更強化？這個你們可能要另外再提一個計畫，王總。"],["王總經理耀庭：這個部分有在準備，可能某些部分不宜太公開。"],["邱委員志偉：好，有在準備啦？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，有在準備。"],["邱委員志偉：有在準備我就比較安心了。另外，你們對SMR的相關研究可能也要有一定的期程表，SMR是未來可能的核能發電的措施跟作為，這個部分可能要有一個明確的時程表，我們對SMR的立場是怎麼樣可能也要了解一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在研究方的話是核管所，他們有投入4年大概是8億的經費還是多少正在研擬，對經濟部來講，將來如果SMR的話，我們是使用方、應用方，所以我們密切地觀察……"],["邱委員志偉：研發方與我們無關，我們是用其他技術取得授權？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有，我們現在密切觀察，因為全世界……雖然叫SMR，但就有不同的冷卻技術。"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：正都在推動當中。"],["邱委員志偉：我們不投入研發，我們只在應用階段？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們是觀察哪些在推動以後商轉結果對我們來講是最合適的，那我們就可以引用。"],["邱委員志偉：考慮在應用面啦？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們是應用面。"],["邱委員志偉：另外關鍵的礦產就變成不管是美、日雙方或者是美、中……"],["龔部長明鑫：稀土。"],["邱委員志偉：雙方在角力的一個重要戰略物資，這部分歐洲已經有關鍵原物料法，李署長也在，台電王總經理也在，我們有沒有建立相關保障關鍵礦物的供應措施，或者關鍵礦物保障與回收相關作為？現在經濟部有沒有相關規劃？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們現在有一個計畫是打算從明年就開始推動，分成兩個部分，一個當然是跟國際間整個供應……因為我們在供應鏈裡面是屬於需求方，雖然是間接需求……"],["邱委員志偉：需求方就要確保穩定供應嘛。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，第一個是配合國際間整體的因應作法，這是第一個；第二個是我們本身的部分，有兩個部分，一個是透過既有的回收再提煉、再精煉，另外一個，事實上我們也跟一些稀土的生產供應者討論怎麼樣讓我們臺灣精煉的……"],["邱委員志偉：能不能提升到國與國的合作？你現在是跟個別廠商嘛，有沒有辦法提升到國與國？比如說主要的這些供應國。"],["龔部長明鑫：國與國的部分，就是剛剛提到的，就是國際供應鏈會有一致性的作法，包括歐盟也好、美國也好或日本也好……"],["邱委員志偉：現在中國依靠稀土或重要的礦產作為它跟美國談判的一個重要武器，所以我們必須要更確保我們的供應面沒有問題，所以必須要國與國之間做一些協商或協議，我們有沒有針對供應國或來源國有國際協議？"],["龔部長明鑫：我不方便講是哪個國家，但是有跟我們在做一些討論。"],["邱委員志偉：必須確保它的供應沒有問題啦，這不只是國家安全，這也是產業的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外有關離岸風電，當初是國產化，如果鬆綁之後，中國的一些經驗，包括鋼鐵、石化、面板等等，這都是用低價去搶市場，如果國產化鬆綁之後，中國會不會用紅色供應鏈來低價滲透，讓我們的國產化受到相關影響？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們禁止用中國的相關零組件。"],["邱委員志偉：如果它是洗產地之類的，你們查得出來嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會查。"],["邱委員志偉：所以不能讓中國這些低價的變成我們離岸風電的主要來源或是主要供應商，這不行喔。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，一定。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，2025年風電的原目標現在有沒有再調整？風電的裝置能量。"],["龔部長明鑫：5.3GW。"],["邱委員志偉：是什麼時候到5.3GW？5.3GW是什麼時候的目標？"],["李署長君禮：2025年，我們在2026年的11月會達到。"],["邱委員志偉：現在是多少？"],["李署長君禮：現在大概將近是三點多GW。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊，三出頭而已嘛。"],["李署長君禮：是，但是我們今年年底陸續還會有新的電廠完工，所以應該到明年2026年11月……"],["邱委員志偉：現在馬上要2026年了，可以到5.3GW嗎？"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你可以如期達標？"],["李署長君禮：可以，我們現在的計畫推進到目前為止看起來大概都順利。"],["邱委員志偉：是很順利嗎？"],["李署長君禮：是，就是說我們現在要完工的大概是Phase 1、Phase 2……"],["邱委員志偉：我認為不是很順利啦，浮式的風電呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：浮動式的，是不是？"],["邱委員志偉：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個是正在草擬跟規劃，方向也會往前，不過那是稍微比較後……"],["邱委員志偉：沒有包括在5.3GW裡面嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有包括在這裡面。"],["邱委員志偉：署長，你說這是很順利在推動，所以5.3GW在明年底可以達標？"],["李署長君禮：是，明年的11月。"],["邱委員志偉：可以達標？"],["李署長君禮：是，完工。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我覺得如果有任何障礙，法律上的問題、政治上的問題，一定要讓業者、開發商很清楚了解。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，會。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得他們跌跌撞撞一路走來好像碰到很多的問題。"],["李署長君禮：一開始確實蠻多問題的，漁業問題、補償問題，還有供應鏈的問題，不過現在推動已經陸陸續續完成，目前我們在商轉的大概就有440座離岸風電風機。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，另外有關加氫站，目前全國也只有兩座，一個在臺南、一個在高雄，對於加氫站，我們未來推動的目標是怎麼樣？方董。部長，這是您那時當主委的時候推動的。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在是示範性。"],["邱委員志偉：示範性，然後呢？中期目標呢？因為你說2050年我們有10%的發電要靠氫能喔，目前這個進度根本就停滯不前，只有兩座示範……"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，加氫站目前中油已經蓋好，我們是跟交通部合作，它是所謂的低碳運輸、低碳載具的部分，我們會配合交通部，交通部會配合提供氫能公車，我們會依照交通部的規劃，哪裡有氫能公車的路線，我們中油公司就搭配去設氫能加氫站。"],["邱委員志偉：你一定要有明確的政策指引，因為這個成本很高，技術也沒有非常成熟，這個還在試辦嘛，對不對？"],["李署長君禮：還在試辦，目前是跟……"],["邱委員志偉：需求也不是那麼穩定嘛。"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以業者有沒有信心去投入，它沒有信心就不會去投入嘛。"],["李署長君禮：目前我們是要補貼，因為這是交通部無碳載具裡面的計畫，交通部補貼公車，我們會補助氫能。"],["邱委員志偉：就怕戰略不清楚，半途而廢，或是沒有辦法順利推動，你看興達海基就是這樣，最後你看，就賠掉五、六十億了，國產化也沒有達成，技術也沒有上來，到最後還是一樣要終止了。所以我們怕這個也是這樣，你說2050年有10%，這是部長您當主委的時候所提出的願景目標，現在你還在試辦。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，現在是在試辦沒有錯。"],["邱委員志偉：你要有明確的戰略目標，政策要怎麼去導引，短、中、長期都要有計畫，我覺得現在只有兩個示範，一個高雄、一個臺南，做完就沒有下一步了。"],["龔部長明鑫：因為氫能有分成幾個部分，一個是怎麼樣產氫，然後氫怎麼運輸，第三個是運用，運用的話，剛剛提到的車用是一部分，它也可以用來發電，就是您剛剛提到的，將來可能接近10%可以用……"],["邱委員志偉：再去盤點一下目前我們國家的氫能政策在哪裡。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，但是現在我們的問題就是產氫跟運送氫，這是比較大的問題，國際間現在也一直在討論這個部分，日本是比較早開始嘛，但是在運輸的部分，他們也遭遇到一些成本上的問題，不過我們還是會持續看看怎麼樣來……"],["邱委員志偉：日本的經驗我們可以學習，但是他們比我們早了大概15、20年。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員質詢，謝謝部長還有相關單位的備詢。等楊瓊瓔委員質詢完，我們就休息。","我們請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}}