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00:01:08,015\n我覺得當初設計連改本來就是在整個政府財政的一個穩定的基礎底下然後讓整個我們的財政更加的永續因為大家也都知道你只要很簡短的回答我你會擔心嗎現職人員會領不到退休金嗎\n\n4\n00:01:11,997 --> 00:01:17,880\n當然大家會有這種疑慮啦因為現在每一年現在每一年的年金你什麼時候要退休我隨時都可以退休所以您是很願意奉獻你的退休金去給現職人員的我覺得我們是在政府機關服務本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作\n\n5\n00:01:36,400 --> 00:02:02,885\n好是非常佩服這個任市長您的大氣您很這個願意把您的這個退休金然後其中的蠻大的一部分可以貢獻給現職人員好那我們接下來來談另外一個問題就是最近行政院有公布了行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關學校公務人員違法賦錄的建議懲處原則然後包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則\n\n6\n00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:07,683\n請問這份規則是出自人事總署之手嗎這規定是你們所草擬的嗎這陸委會開會決定了我們來發文你們發文所以裡面所有建議的事項都是你們寫的是嗎\n\n7\n00:02:20,188 --> 00:02:41,943\n就是條文整個都陸委會他拍板確定了然後我們再轉給所有人所以包含怎麼樣的情況然後要記一個過或者一次記兩個過等等的這些都是陸委會決定的跟你們無關你們只是配合發文是這樣嗎陸委會政策決定的什麼叫政策決定就是這份是誰擬的嘛這份是誰擬的嘛當時是誰提出來的\n\n8\n00:02:46,997 --> 00:02:56,941\n我們是按照陸委會的話我們轉給所有的行政機關好所以這個就不是出自於人種之手我只是要確定這件事情這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的\n\n9\n00:03:00,748 --> 00:03:17,120\n會寫的轉給我們我們再轉給所以對於人種的立場你們就招單全收你們都沒有去反映這個這樣子的一個建議懲處規則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則請問這樣的一個建議懲處原則它的法律依據在哪裡\n\n10\n00:03:17,940 --> 00:03:39,937\n我們有找相關的政府機關的同仁來表示意見過所以認為沒有違法因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會的最後的一個所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了也不是下屬因為這是一個政府機關之間的分工的問題可是問題是說這個很明顯就已經違反法律保留原則了我們看一下那個兩岸人民關係條例的第九條\n\n11\n00:03:43,932 --> 00:03:59,546\n從第九條的第三項到第五項了這邊列了第三項第四項這非常清楚嘛檢認實質等級警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區就不會受到\n\n12\n00:04:00,907 --> 00:04:27,939\n這個之前就是他每次去大陸都必須要申請許可在我們兩岸人民關係條例第九條第三項寫得很清楚在第四項裡面也有講到對不對你具有這個第四項的這些身份的人那才赴大陸港澳然後才可能必須要經過申請那你們現在的所建議的這樣的一個懲處規則是無差別耶未來公務員他即便是可能一職等二職等他都要受到這樣的規範合理嗎\n\n13\n00:04:29,571 --> 00:04:51,083\n我跟委員說明一下就是整個的思考邏輯就是你沒有違規就不會有懲處的這個問題而不是不能去的問題你如果都按照遊戲規則什麼叫做違規您看看我們的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思現在只是說我有沒有要去之前我要先拿到那個許可對不對你法律裡面明明就規定\n\n14\n00:04:56,086 --> 00:05:22,889\n實質等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去去了大陸之後他有沒有洩漏國家機密有沒有違反其他的這個相關的這個法規這是另外依照其他的法律來處理這跟你要申請進去許可這是兩件事啊一個是進去嘛一個是回來嘛要進去有些是有些是要到內政部申請有些是要經過陸委會嘛那我現在的意思是說還有主管機關的問題嘛\n\n15\n00:05:24,608 --> 00:05:51,681\n任市長請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼實質等以下緊接四階以下的不涉及國家安全利益或機密公務員員是排除在外他們不需要去申請許可就可以進入大陸地區你現在是認為說以後一般的什麼股員科長客員記錄人員都要申請許可嗎\n\n16\n00:05:54,679 --> 00:06:11,338\n我跟委員稍微說明一下啦大概兩岸條例的是屬於陸委會規範的嘛十一以上的然後十一以下的他又有授權移民署他去訂一些規範事實上只要進去原則上都要申請\n\n17\n00:06:12,657 --> 00:06:41,703\n你告訴我哪一條需要申請所以這些現在你們的概念就是現在只要是進入公務機關的所有公務人員他都會涉及國家安全利益或機密所以全部都要一併的管制甚至於連公立學校的行政就是具有行政職務的這些校長院長系所主管或是乃至於什麼研究中心主任全部都要列管\n\n18\n00:06:42,799 --> 00:06:47,937\n你們現在的規定就是這樣啊是要申請啦主要是要申請的問題\n\n19\n00:06:50,879 --> 00:07:14,191\n剛才委員你提到的學校是兼行正職的才需要沒有兼行正職的就不需要人事長我告訴你這會發生一個什麼問題好嗎你現在不管是大學中學小學以後未來沒有老師沒有教授願意兼行正職很快就會找不到系主任小學裡面你也找不到各個什麼組長\n\n20\n00:07:15,912 --> 00:07:26,023\n教務主任大家沒有人要去兼行正職了就你的觀點你認為一個小學的體育組長他會涉及到什麼國家機密嗎\n\n21\n00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:48,496\n一個音樂科的科主任或是科老師他會涉及到什麼樣的國家機密嗎我覺得人事長您今天作為行政院的人事總署的最高的長官你應該要勇於來捍衛所有的這些公務員的權利\n\n22\n00:07:51,069 --> 00:07:54,190\n這不是講說你配合陸委會陸委會他我要講陸委會他本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關如果有人要出去大陸的時候他配合去辦理他不是你什麼現在都變成他的爪牙了\n\n23\n00:08:07,253 --> 00:08:24,473\n他要怎麼樣去限制怎麼管制因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有一些很明確的分工那這個法治的主管機關就是陸委會所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範我們必須要follow他的一個規定\n\n24\n00:08:25,114 --> 00:08:51,919\n如果這樣的話人事總署的法務處可以廢掉了我不知道我回去會去查我們沒有法務處所以你們掌管這些什麼人事法規你們都沒有責任嗎今天人事長你說這樣的話讓我真的是非常心寒你說依據考機法怎麼處罰我看了半天我們考機法的規定你是依照哪一個考機法的規定你可以去做這樣的一個懲處規定你可以去做這樣一個懲處\n\n25\n00:08:54,554 --> 00:09:21,406\n他如果不涉及到任我就講嘛一個很低階的警察一個小學的老師他可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長兼了某一個什麼這個這個職務或是一個大學教授他不過是兼了一個系所的這個主管那他要去他要他們現在連他們去都要受到規定都要受到這樣嚴格的規定這基本上是很不合理的我很希望就是說你們\n\n26\n00:09:22,026 --> 00:09:49,234\n真的要好好的去檢討這個對於你們的這個懈怠你們的職責我也這次也會反映在你的預算上面另外呢我還再加上另外還要再很快的問一個問題就是我們知道現在行政院的一些機關我們看到它的原額的編制都明顯超過你們之前所講的5%對於這個部分你們有沒有什麼看法怎麼樣讓這些聘用人員的禁用比例\n\n27\n00:09:50,342 --> 00:10:06,061\n能夠下降像文化部環境部他們的聘用員額的比例都已經明顯的超高啊對啊文化部看26%的話11%點多都是已經明顯高過你們行政院自己公佈的經用員額5%啊\n\n28\n00:10:10,021 --> 00:10:31,829\n這一個我們在整個報告裡面也有初步去呈現就是因為這些聘用比例偏高的本來就是因為他的專業性我們沒辦法從考試直接來禁用所以我們會讓他聘用的顏額會增加多一點他不是一個普遍現象他是少數集中在某些部會\n\n29\n00:10:32,708 --> 00:10:50,161\n我請任總這裡提供給我一份資料我們看看這是不是一個普遍的現象我剛剛這邊只是列舉一些機關很多的機關基本上它的聘用員額都已經超過你們所訂的5%如果說真的有人員需要的話為什麼不直接增加它原來機關編制內的員額\n\n30\n00:10:52,602 --> 00:11:11,400\n這個部分的話我要求人事長您這邊一個禮拜之內可以提供一份報告給我吧就是說有關於各機關的現在這個聘用員額的金融比例好不好就是麻煩就是要提供給我還有一個問題就是說這個之前有在講就是公務人員還有公教員現在有沒有領取\n\n31\n00:11:15,063 --> 00:11:31,192\n身份證戶籍等等要拒絕那麼我還記得當時也是在這個執行台上有問了人事長如果說有公務人員公教人員他們沒有拒絕你們會不會去追究他們的一些責任\n\n32\n00:11:32,318 --> 00:11:51,051\n我們本來就不會追究啊本來就不會追究上次有答覆委員就是不會追究啊是那為什麼現在又說是如果說不寫拒絕書的話會連結到他未來可能不能夠升遷然後不能夠調任他是適用在整個公務人員服務法的規範裡面\n\n33\n00:11:53,467 --> 00:12:15,618\n他不簽這個違反他有什麼公務人員法規嗎他有因此是違反公務員服務法裡面的哪個規定嗎現在委員所指教的這一個部分是屬於陸委會他是兩岸人民條例的一些規範所以我們也必須要去遵循\n\n34\n00:12:17,284 --> 00:12:42,094\n人事長我還在講就是您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總署的長官你現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都是聽陸委會的陸委會做的一些不合理的要求你們也都完全配合你知道你們這樣子的做法是傷了多少公教人員的心\n\n35\n00:12:43,874 --> 00:13:10,612\n你有沒有考慮到就揭曉而且它的影響我現在講的而且它的影響的這個效果會是什麼以後沒有尤其是在一般的學校裡面以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦我想這個教育部那邊應該很清楚人事長也很清楚很多的公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接不管他是小主管中主管大主管他不願意去兼主管職的\n\n36\n00:13:12,844 --> 00:13:28,594\n你們搞得這麼嚴格以後就是整個機關裡面會沒有任何的人要來負擔更重要的這個公務還有這個教育的責任所以我希望你們回去檢討那以上謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1790\t翁小玲委員 來謝謝主席 這個莊昭偉辛苦了身體有恙 但是還是非常的敬業然後這個從開刀第一天之後馬上就來我們宮廷會這裡簽到然後今天又主持會議真的非常的佩服謝謝向您致敬那接下來我要先請任市長請任市長\n30434\t46872\t委員長好 任市長早剛剛吳斯堯委員講說很擔心這次的軍公教人員退休金的停砍的修法會影響到限職人員的退休金的保障我想請問任市長 您會有這樣的擔憂嗎\n51483\t68015\t我覺得當初設計連改本來就是在整個政府財政的一個穩定的基礎底下然後讓整個我們的財政更加的永續 因為大家也都知道你只要很簡短的回答我 你會擔心嗎 現職人員會領不到退休金嗎\n71997\t77880\t當然大家會有這種疑慮啦因為現在每一年現在每一年的年金你什麼時候要退休我隨時都可以退休所以您是很願意奉獻你的退休金去給現職人員的我覺得我們是在政府機關服務本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作\n96400\t122885\t好 是非常佩服這個任市長您的大氣您很這個願意把您的這個退休金然後其中的蠻大的一部分可以貢獻給現職人員好 那我們接下來來談另外一個問題就是最近行政院有公布了行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關學校公務人員違法賦錄的建議懲處原則然後包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則\n124239\t127683\t請問這份規則是出自人事總署之手嗎這規定是你們所草擬的嗎這陸委會開會決定了 我們來發文你們發文 所以裡面所有建議的事項都是你們寫的是嗎\n140188\t161943\t就是條文整個都陸委會他拍板確定了然後我們再轉給所有人所以包含怎麼樣的情況然後要記一個過或者一次記兩個過等等的這些都是陸委會決定的跟你們無關你們只是配合發文是這樣嗎陸委會政策決定的什麼叫政策決定就是這份是誰擬的嘛這份是誰擬的嘛當時是誰提出來的\n166997\t176941\t我們是按照陸委會的話我們轉給所有的行政機關好 所以這個就不是出自於人種之手我只是要確定這件事情這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的\n180748\t197120\t會寫的轉給我們我們再轉給所以對於人種的立場你們就招單全收你們都沒有去反映這個這樣子的一個建議懲處規則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則請問這樣的一個建議懲處原則它的法律依據在哪裡\n197940\t219937\t我們有找相關的政府機關的同仁來表示意見過所以認為沒有違法因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會的最後的一個所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了也不是下屬 因為這是一個政府機關之間的分工的問題可是問題是說這個很明顯就已經違反法律保留原則了我們看一下那個兩岸人民關係條例的第九條\n223932\t239546\t從第九條的第三項到第五項了這邊列了第三項第四項這非常清楚嘛檢認實質等級警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區就不會受到\n240907\t267939\t這個之前就是他每次去大陸都必須要申請許可在我們兩岸人民關係條例第九條第三項寫得很清楚在第四項裡面也有講到對不對你具有這個第四項的這些身份的人那才赴大陸港澳然後才可能必須要經過申請那你們現在的所建議的這樣的一個懲處規則是無差別耶未來公務員他即便是可能一職等二職等他都要受到這樣的規範合理嗎\n269571\t291083\t我跟委員說明一下就是整個的思考邏輯就是你沒有違規就不會有懲處的這個問題而不是不能去的問題你如果都按照遊戲規則什麼叫做違規您看看我們的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思現在只是說我有沒有要去之前我要先拿到那個許可對不對 你法律裡面明明就規定\n296086\t322889\t實質等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去去了大陸之後他有沒有洩漏國家機密有沒有違反其他的這個相關的這個法規這是另外依照其他的法律來處理這跟你要申請進去許可這是兩件事啊一個是進去嘛 一個是回來嘛要進去有些是有些是要到內政部申請有些是要經過陸委會嘛那我現在的意思是說還有主管機關的問題嘛\n324608\t351681\t任市長請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼實質等以下 緊接四階以下的不涉及國家安全利益或機密公務員員是排除在外他們不需要去申請許可就可以進入大陸地區你現在是認為說以後一般的什麼股員 科長 客員 記錄人員都要申請許可嗎\n354679\t371338\t我跟委員稍微說明一下啦大概兩岸條例的是屬於陸委會規範的嘛十一以上的然後十一以下的他又有授權移民署他去訂一些規範事實上只要進去原則上都要申請\n372657\t401703\t你告訴我哪一條需要申請所以這些現在你們的概念就是現在只要是進入公務機關的所有公務人員他都會涉及國家安全利益或機密所以全部都要一併的管制甚至於連公立學校的行政就是具有行政職務的這些校長院長 系所主管或是乃至於什麼研究中心主任全部都要列管\n402799\t407937\t你們現在的規定就是這樣啊是要申請啦 主要是要申請的問題\n410879\t434191\t剛才委員你提到的學校是兼行正職的才需要沒有兼行正職的就不需要人事長我告訴你這會發生一個什麼問題好嗎你現在不管是大學中學小學以後未來沒有老師沒有教授願意兼行正職很快就會找不到系主任小學裡面你也找不到各個什麼組長\n435912\t446023\t教務主任大家沒有人要去兼行正職了就你的觀點你認為一個小學的體育組長他會涉及到什麼國家機密嗎\n448476\t468496\t一個音樂科的科主任或是科老師他會涉及到什麼樣的國家機密嗎我覺得人事長您今天作為行政院的人事總署的最高的長官你應該要勇於來捍衛所有的這些公務員的權利\n471069\t474190\t這不是講說你配合陸委會陸委會他我要講陸委會他本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關如果有人要出去大陸的時候他配合去辦理他不是你什麼現在都變成他的爪牙了\n487253\t504473\t他要怎麼樣去限制怎麼管制因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有一些很明確的分工那這個法治的主管機關就是陸委會所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範我們必須要follow他的一個規定\n505114\t531919\t如果這樣的話 人事總署的法務處可以廢掉了我不知道 我回去會去查我們沒有法務處所以你們掌管這些什麼人事法規你們都沒有責任嗎今天人事長你說這樣的話讓我真的是非常心寒你說依據考機法怎麼處罰我看了半天 我們考機法的規定你是依照哪一個考機法的規定你可以去做這樣的一個懲處規定你可以去做這樣一個懲處\n534554\t561406\t他如果不涉及到任 我就講嘛一個很低階的警察一個小學的老師他可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長兼了某一個什麼這個這個職務或是一個大學教授他不過是兼了一個系所的這個主管那他要去他要他們現在連他們去都要受到規定都要受到這樣嚴格的規定這基本上是很不合理的我很希望就是說你們\n562026\t589234\t真的要好好的去檢討這個對於你們的這個懈怠你們的職責我也這次也會反映在你的預算上面另外呢我還再加上另外還要再很快的問一個問題就是我們知道現在行政院的一些機關我們看到它的原額的編制都明顯超過你們之前所講的5%對於這個部分你們有沒有什麼看法怎麼樣讓這些聘用人員的禁用比例\n590342\t606061\t能夠下降像文化部環境部他們的聘用員額的比例都已經明顯的超高啊對啊文化部看26%的話11%點多都是已經明顯高過你們行政院自己公佈的經用員額5%啊\n610021\t631829\t這一個我們在整個報告裡面也有初步去呈現就是因為這些聘用比例偏高的本來就是因為他的專業性我們沒辦法從考試直接來禁用所以我們會讓他聘用的顏額會增加多一點他不是一個普遍現象他是少數集中在某些部會\n632708\t650161\t我請任總這裡提供給我一份資料我們看看這是不是一個普遍的現象我剛剛這邊只是列舉一些機關很多的機關基本上它的聘用員額都已經超過你們所訂的5%如果說真的有人員需要的話為什麼不直接增加它原來機關編制內的員額\n652602\t671400\t這個部分的話我要求人事長您這邊一個禮拜之內可以提供一份報告給我吧就是說有關於各機關的現在這個聘用員額的金融比例好不好就是麻煩就是要提供給我還有一個問題就是說這個之前有在講就是公務人員還有公教員現在有沒有領取\n675063\t691192\t身份證戶籍等等要拒絕那麼我還記得當時也是在這個執行台上有問了人事長如果說有公務人員公教人員他們沒有拒絕你們會不會去追究他們的一些責任\n692318\t711051\t我們本來就不會追究啊本來就不會追究上次有答覆委員就是不會追究啊是 那為什麼現在又說是如果說不寫拒絕書的話會連結到他未來可能不能夠升遷然後不能夠調任他是適用在整個公務人員服務法的規範裡面\n713467\t735618\t他不簽這個違反他有什麼公務人員法規嗎他有因此是違反公務員服務法裡面的哪個規定嗎現在委員所指教的這一個部分是屬於陸委會他是兩岸人民條例的一些規範所以我們也必須要去遵循\n737284\t762094\t人事長我還在講就是您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總署的長官你現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都是聽陸委會的陸委會做的一些不合理的要求你們也都完全配合你知道你們這樣子的做法是傷了多少公教人員的心\n763874\t790612\t你有沒有考慮到就揭曉而且它的影響我現在講的而且它的影響的這個效果會是什麼以後沒有尤其是在一般的學校裡面以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦我想這個教育部那邊應該很清楚人事長也很清楚很多的公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接不管他是小主管中主管大主管他不願意去兼主管職的\n792844\t808594\t你們搞得這麼嚴格以後就是整個機關裡面會沒有任何的人要來負擔更重要的這個公務還有這個教育的責任所以我希望你們回去檢討那以上謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"翁小玲委員 來謝謝主席 這個莊昭偉辛苦了身體有恙 但是還是非常的敬業然後這個從開刀第一天之後馬上就來我們宮廷會這裡簽到然後今天又主持會議真的非常的佩服謝謝向您致敬那接下來我要先請任市長請任市長\n委員長好 任市長早剛剛吳斯堯委員講說很擔心這次的軍公教人員退休金的停砍的修法會影響到限職人員的退休金的保障我想請問任市長 您會有這樣的擔憂嗎\n我覺得當初設計連改本來就是在整個政府財政的一個穩定的基礎底下然後讓整個我們的財政更加的永續 因為大家也都知道你只要很簡短的回答我 你會擔心嗎 現職人員會領不到退休金嗎\n當然大家會有這種疑慮啦因為現在每一年現在每一年的年金你什麼時候要退休我隨時都可以退休所以您是很願意奉獻你的退休金去給現職人員的我覺得我們是在政府機關服務本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作\n好 是非常佩服這個任市長您的大氣您很這個願意把您的這個退休金然後其中的蠻大的一部分可以貢獻給現職人員好 那我們接下來來談另外一個問題就是最近行政院有公布了行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關學校公務人員違法賦錄的建議懲處原則然後包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則\n請問這份規則是出自人事總署之手嗎這規定是你們所草擬的嗎這陸委會開會決定了 我們來發文你們發文 所以裡面所有建議的事項都是你們寫的是嗎\n就是條文整個都陸委會他拍板確定了然後我們再轉給所有人所以包含怎麼樣的情況然後要記一個過或者一次記兩個過等等的這些都是陸委會決定的跟你們無關你們只是配合發文是這樣嗎陸委會政策決定的什麼叫政策決定就是這份是誰擬的嘛這份是誰擬的嘛當時是誰提出來的\n我們是按照陸委會的話我們轉給所有的行政機關好 所以這個就不是出自於人種之手我只是要確定這件事情這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的\n會寫的轉給我們我們再轉給所以對於人種的立場你們就招單全收你們都沒有去反映這個這樣子的一個建議懲處規則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則請問這樣的一個建議懲處原則它的法律依據在哪裡\n我們有找相關的政府機關的同仁來表示意見過所以認為沒有違法因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會的最後的一個所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了也不是下屬 因為這是一個政府機關之間的分工的問題可是問題是說這個很明顯就已經違反法律保留原則了我們看一下那個兩岸人民關係條例的第九條\n從第九條的第三項到第五項了這邊列了第三項第四項這非常清楚嘛檢認實質等級警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區就不會受到\n這個之前就是他每次去大陸都必須要申請許可在我們兩岸人民關係條例第九條第三項寫得很清楚在第四項裡面也有講到對不對你具有這個第四項的這些身份的人那才赴大陸港澳然後才可能必須要經過申請那你們現在的所建議的這樣的一個懲處規則是無差別耶未來公務員他即便是可能一職等二職等他都要受到這樣的規範合理嗎\n我跟委員說明一下就是整個的思考邏輯就是你沒有違規就不會有懲處的這個問題而不是不能去的問題你如果都按照遊戲規則什麼叫做違規您看看我們的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思現在只是說我有沒有要去之前我要先拿到那個許可對不對 你法律裡面明明就規定\n實質等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去去了大陸之後他有沒有洩漏國家機密有沒有違反其他的這個相關的這個法規這是另外依照其他的法律來處理這跟你要申請進去許可這是兩件事啊一個是進去嘛 一個是回來嘛要進去有些是有些是要到內政部申請有些是要經過陸委會嘛那我現在的意思是說還有主管機關的問題嘛\n任市長請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼實質等以下 緊接四階以下的不涉及國家安全利益或機密公務員員是排除在外他們不需要去申請許可就可以進入大陸地區你現在是認為說以後一般的什麼股員 科長 客員 記錄人員都要申請許可嗎\n我跟委員稍微說明一下啦大概兩岸條例的是屬於陸委會規範的嘛十一以上的然後十一以下的他又有授權移民署他去訂一些規範事實上只要進去原則上都要申請\n你告訴我哪一條需要申請所以這些現在你們的概念就是現在只要是進入公務機關的所有公務人員他都會涉及國家安全利益或機密所以全部都要一併的管制甚至於連公立學校的行政就是具有行政職務的這些校長院長 系所主管或是乃至於什麼研究中心主任全部都要列管\n你們現在的規定就是這樣啊是要申請啦 主要是要申請的問題\n剛才委員你提到的學校是兼行正職的才需要沒有兼行正職的就不需要人事長我告訴你這會發生一個什麼問題好嗎你現在不管是大學中學小學以後未來沒有老師沒有教授願意兼行正職很快就會找不到系主任小學裡面你也找不到各個什麼組長\n教務主任大家沒有人要去兼行正職了就你的觀點你認為一個小學的體育組長他會涉及到什麼國家機密嗎\n一個音樂科的科主任或是科老師他會涉及到什麼樣的國家機密嗎我覺得人事長您今天作為行政院的人事總署的最高的長官你應該要勇於來捍衛所有的這些公務員的權利\n這不是講說你配合陸委會陸委會他我要講陸委會他本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關如果有人要出去大陸的時候他配合去辦理他不是你什麼現在都變成他的爪牙了\n他要怎麼樣去限制怎麼管制因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有一些很明確的分工那這個法治的主管機關就是陸委會所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範我們必須要follow他的一個規定\n如果這樣的話 人事總署的法務處可以廢掉了我不知道 我回去會去查我們沒有法務處所以你們掌管這些什麼人事法規你們都沒有責任嗎今天人事長你說這樣的話讓我真的是非常心寒你說依據考機法怎麼處罰我看了半天 我們考機法的規定你是依照哪一個考機法的規定你可以去做這樣的一個懲處規定你可以去做這樣一個懲處\n他如果不涉及到任 我就講嘛一個很低階的警察一個小學的老師他可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長兼了某一個什麼這個這個職務或是一個大學教授他不過是兼了一個系所的這個主管那他要去他要他們現在連他們去都要受到規定都要受到這樣嚴格的規定這基本上是很不合理的我很希望就是說你們\n真的要好好的去檢討這個對於你們的這個懈怠你們的職責我也這次也會反映在你的預算上面另外呢我還再加上另外還要再很快的問一個問題就是我們知道現在行政院的一些機關我們看到它的原額的編制都明顯超過你們之前所講的5%對於這個部分你們有沒有什麼看法怎麼樣讓這些聘用人員的禁用比例\n能夠下降像文化部環境部他們的聘用員額的比例都已經明顯的超高啊對啊文化部看26%的話11%點多都是已經明顯高過你們行政院自己公佈的經用員額5%啊\n這一個我們在整個報告裡面也有初步去呈現就是因為這些聘用比例偏高的本來就是因為他的專業性我們沒辦法從考試直接來禁用所以我們會讓他聘用的顏額會增加多一點他不是一個普遍現象他是少數集中在某些部會\n我請任總這裡提供給我一份資料我們看看這是不是一個普遍的現象我剛剛這邊只是列舉一些機關很多的機關基本上它的聘用員額都已經超過你們所訂的5%如果說真的有人員需要的話為什麼不直接增加它原來機關編制內的員額\n這個部分的話我要求人事長您這邊一個禮拜之內可以提供一份報告給我吧就是說有關於各機關的現在這個聘用員額的金融比例好不好就是麻煩就是要提供給我還有一個問題就是說這個之前有在講就是公務人員還有公教員現在有沒有領取\n身份證戶籍等等要拒絕那麼我還記得當時也是在這個執行台上有問了人事長如果說有公務人員公教人員他們沒有拒絕你們會不會去追究他們的一些責任\n我們本來就不會追究啊本來就不會追究上次有答覆委員就是不會追究啊是 那為什麼現在又說是如果說不寫拒絕書的話會連結到他未來可能不能夠升遷然後不能夠調任他是適用在整個公務人員服務法的規範裡面\n他不簽這個違反他有什麼公務人員法規嗎他有因此是違反公務員服務法裡面的哪個規定嗎現在委員所指教的這一個部分是屬於陸委會他是兩岸人民條例的一些規範所以我們也必須要去遵循\n人事長我還在講就是您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總署的長官你現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都是聽陸委會的陸委會做的一些不合理的要求你們也都完全配合你知道你們這樣子的做法是傷了多少公教人員的心\n你有沒有考慮到就揭曉而且它的影響我現在講的而且它的影響的這個效果會是什麼以後沒有尤其是在一般的學校裡面以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦我想這個教育部那邊應該很清楚人事長也很清楚很多的公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接不管他是小主管中主管大主管他不願意去兼主管職的\n你們搞得這麼嚴格以後就是整個機關裡面會沒有任何的人要來負擔更重要的這個公務還有這個教育的責任所以我希望你們回去檢討那以上謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.790\n翁小玲委員來謝謝主席這個莊昭偉辛苦了身體有恙但是還是非常的敬業然後這個從開刀第一天之後馬上就來我們宮廷會這裡簽到然後今天又主持會議真的非常的佩服謝謝向您致敬那接下來我要先請任市長請任市長\n\n00:30.434 --> 00:46.872\n委員長好任市長早剛剛吳斯堯委員講說很擔心這次的軍公教人員退休金的停砍的修法會影響到限職人員的退休金的保障我想請問任市長您會有這樣的擔憂嗎\n\n00:51.483 --> 01:08.015\n我覺得當初設計連改本來就是在整個政府財政的一個穩定的基礎底下然後讓整個我們的財政更加的永續因為大家也都知道你只要很簡短的回答我你會擔心嗎現職人員會領不到退休金嗎\n\n01:11.997 --> 01:17.880\n當然大家會有這種疑慮啦因為現在每一年現在每一年的年金你什麼時候要退休我隨時都可以退休所以您是很願意奉獻你的退休金去給現職人員的我覺得我們是在政府機關服務本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作\n\n01:36.400 --> 02:02.885\n好是非常佩服這個任市長您的大氣您很這個願意把您的這個退休金然後其中的蠻大的一部分可以貢獻給現職人員好那我們接下來來談另外一個問題就是最近行政院有公布了行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關學校公務人員違法賦錄的建議懲處原則然後包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則\n\n02:04.239 --> 02:07.683\n請問這份規則是出自人事總署之手嗎這規定是你們所草擬的嗎這陸委會開會決定了我們來發文你們發文所以裡面所有建議的事項都是你們寫的是嗎\n\n02:20.188 --> 02:41.943\n就是條文整個都陸委會他拍板確定了然後我們再轉給所有人所以包含怎麼樣的情況然後要記一個過或者一次記兩個過等等的這些都是陸委會決定的跟你們無關你們只是配合發文是這樣嗎陸委會政策決定的什麼叫政策決定就是這份是誰擬的嘛這份是誰擬的嘛當時是誰提出來的\n\n02:46.997 --> 02:56.941\n我們是按照陸委會的話我們轉給所有的行政機關好所以這個就不是出自於人種之手我只是要確定這件事情這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的\n\n03:00.748 --> 03:17.120\n會寫的轉給我們我們再轉給所以對於人種的立場你們就招單全收你們都沒有去反映這個這樣子的一個建議懲處規則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則請問這樣的一個建議懲處原則它的法律依據在哪裡\n\n03:17.940 --> 03:39.937\n我們有找相關的政府機關的同仁來表示意見過所以認為沒有違法因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會的最後的一個所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了也不是下屬因為這是一個政府機關之間的分工的問題可是問題是說這個很明顯就已經違反法律保留原則了我們看一下那個兩岸人民關係條例的第九條\n\n03:43.932 --> 03:59.546\n從第九條的第三項到第五項了這邊列了第三項第四項這非常清楚嘛檢認實質等級警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區就不會受到\n\n04:00.907 --> 04:27.939\n這個之前就是他每次去大陸都必須要申請許可在我們兩岸人民關係條例第九條第三項寫得很清楚在第四項裡面也有講到對不對你具有這個第四項的這些身份的人那才赴大陸港澳然後才可能必須要經過申請那你們現在的所建議的這樣的一個懲處規則是無差別耶未來公務員他即便是可能一職等二職等他都要受到這樣的規範合理嗎\n\n04:29.571 --> 04:51.083\n我跟委員說明一下就是整個的思考邏輯就是你沒有違規就不會有懲處的這個問題而不是不能去的問題你如果都按照遊戲規則什麼叫做違規您看看我們的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思現在只是說我有沒有要去之前我要先拿到那個許可對不對你法律裡面明明就規定\n\n04:56.086 --> 05:22.889\n實質等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去去了大陸之後他有沒有洩漏國家機密有沒有違反其他的這個相關的這個法規這是另外依照其他的法律來處理這跟你要申請進去許可這是兩件事啊一個是進去嘛一個是回來嘛要進去有些是有些是要到內政部申請有些是要經過陸委會嘛那我現在的意思是說還有主管機關的問題嘛\n\n05:24.608 --> 05:51.681\n任市長請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼實質等以下緊接四階以下的不涉及國家安全利益或機密公務員員是排除在外他們不需要去申請許可就可以進入大陸地區你現在是認為說以後一般的什麼股員科長客員記錄人員都要申請許可嗎\n\n05:54.679 --> 06:11.338\n我跟委員稍微說明一下啦大概兩岸條例的是屬於陸委會規範的嘛十一以上的然後十一以下的他又有授權移民署他去訂一些規範事實上只要進去原則上都要申請\n\n06:12.657 --> 06:41.703\n你告訴我哪一條需要申請所以這些現在你們的概念就是現在只要是進入公務機關的所有公務人員他都會涉及國家安全利益或機密所以全部都要一併的管制甚至於連公立學校的行政就是具有行政職務的這些校長院長系所主管或是乃至於什麼研究中心主任全部都要列管\n\n06:42.799 --> 06:47.937\n你們現在的規定就是這樣啊是要申請啦主要是要申請的問題\n\n06:50.879 --> 07:14.191\n剛才委員你提到的學校是兼行正職的才需要沒有兼行正職的就不需要人事長我告訴你這會發生一個什麼問題好嗎你現在不管是大學中學小學以後未來沒有老師沒有教授願意兼行正職很快就會找不到系主任小學裡面你也找不到各個什麼組長\n\n07:15.912 --> 07:26.023\n教務主任大家沒有人要去兼行正職了就你的觀點你認為一個小學的體育組長他會涉及到什麼國家機密嗎\n\n07:28.476 --> 07:48.496\n一個音樂科的科主任或是科老師他會涉及到什麼樣的國家機密嗎我覺得人事長您今天作為行政院的人事總署的最高的長官你應該要勇於來捍衛所有的這些公務員的權利\n\n07:51.069 --> 07:54.190\n這不是講說你配合陸委會陸委會他我要講陸委會他本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關如果有人要出去大陸的時候他配合去辦理他不是你什麼現在都變成他的爪牙了\n\n08:07.253 --> 08:24.473\n他要怎麼樣去限制怎麼管制因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有一些很明確的分工那這個法治的主管機關就是陸委會所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範我們必須要follow他的一個規定\n\n08:25.114 --> 08:51.919\n如果這樣的話人事總署的法務處可以廢掉了我不知道我回去會去查我們沒有法務處所以你們掌管這些什麼人事法規你們都沒有責任嗎今天人事長你說這樣的話讓我真的是非常心寒你說依據考機法怎麼處罰我看了半天我們考機法的規定你是依照哪一個考機法的規定你可以去做這樣的一個懲處規定你可以去做這樣一個懲處\n\n08:54.554 --> 09:21.406\n他如果不涉及到任我就講嘛一個很低階的警察一個小學的老師他可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長兼了某一個什麼這個這個職務或是一個大學教授他不過是兼了一個系所的這個主管那他要去他要他們現在連他們去都要受到規定都要受到這樣嚴格的規定這基本上是很不合理的我很希望就是說你們\n\n09:22.026 --> 09:49.234\n真的要好好的去檢討這個對於你們的這個懈怠你們的職責我也這次也會反映在你的預算上面另外呢我還再加上另外還要再很快的問一個問題就是我們知道現在行政院的一些機關我們看到它的原額的編制都明顯超過你們之前所講的5%對於這個部分你們有沒有什麼看法怎麼樣讓這些聘用人員的禁用比例\n\n09:50.342 --> 10:06.061\n能夠下降像文化部環境部他們的聘用員額的比例都已經明顯的超高啊對啊文化部看26%的話11%點多都是已經明顯高過你們行政院自己公佈的經用員額5%啊\n\n10:10.021 --> 10:31.829\n這一個我們在整個報告裡面也有初步去呈現就是因為這些聘用比例偏高的本來就是因為他的專業性我們沒辦法從考試直接來禁用所以我們會讓他聘用的顏額會增加多一點他不是一個普遍現象他是少數集中在某些部會\n\n10:32.708 --> 10:50.161\n我請任總這裡提供給我一份資料我們看看這是不是一個普遍的現象我剛剛這邊只是列舉一些機關很多的機關基本上它的聘用員額都已經超過你們所訂的5%如果說真的有人員需要的話為什麼不直接增加它原來機關編制內的員額\n\n10:52.602 --> 11:11.400\n這個部分的話我要求人事長您這邊一個禮拜之內可以提供一份報告給我吧就是說有關於各機關的現在這個聘用員額的金融比例好不好就是麻煩就是要提供給我還有一個問題就是說這個之前有在講就是公務人員還有公教員現在有沒有領取\n\n11:15.063 --> 11:31.192\n身份證戶籍等等要拒絕那麼我還記得當時也是在這個執行台上有問了人事長如果說有公務人員公教人員他們沒有拒絕你們會不會去追究他們的一些責任\n\n11:32.318 --> 11:51.051\n我們本來就不會追究啊本來就不會追究上次有答覆委員就是不會追究啊是那為什麼現在又說是如果說不寫拒絕書的話會連結到他未來可能不能夠升遷然後不能夠調任他是適用在整個公務人員服務法的規範裡面\n\n11:53.467 --> 12:15.618\n他不簽這個違反他有什麼公務人員法規嗎他有因此是違反公務員服務法裡面的哪個規定嗎現在委員所指教的這一個部分是屬於陸委會他是兩岸人民條例的一些規範所以我們也必須要去遵循\n\n12:17.284 --> 12:42.094\n人事長我還在講就是您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總署的長官你現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都是聽陸委會的陸委會做的一些不合理的要求你們也都完全配合你知道你們這樣子的做法是傷了多少公教人員的心\n\n12:43.874 --> 13:10.612\n你有沒有考慮到就揭曉而且它的影響我現在講的而且它的影響的這個效果會是什麼以後沒有尤其是在一般的學校裡面以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦我想這個教育部那邊應該很清楚人事長也很清楚很多的公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接不管他是小主管中主管大主管他不願意去兼主管職的\n\n13:12.844 --> 13:28.594\n你們搞得這麼嚴格以後就是整個機關裡面會沒有任何的人要來負擔更重要的這個公務還有這個教育的責任所以我希望你們回去檢討那以上謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.79,"text":"翁小玲委員 來謝謝主席 這個莊昭偉辛苦了身體有恙 但是還是非常的敬業然後這個從開刀第一天之後馬上就來我們宮廷會這裡簽到然後今天又主持會議真的非常的佩服謝謝向您致敬那接下來我要先請任市長請任市長"},{"start":30.434,"end":46.872,"text":"委員長好 任市長早剛剛吳斯堯委員講說很擔心這次的軍公教人員退休金的停砍的修法會影響到限職人員的退休金的保障我想請問任市長 您會有這樣的擔憂嗎"},{"start":51.483,"end":68.015,"text":"我覺得當初設計連改本來就是在整個政府財政的一個穩定的基礎底下然後讓整個我們的財政更加的永續 因為大家也都知道你只要很簡短的回答我 你會擔心嗎 現職人員會領不到退休金嗎"},{"start":71.997,"end":77.88,"text":"當然大家會有這種疑慮啦因為現在每一年現在每一年的年金你什麼時候要退休我隨時都可以退休所以您是很願意奉獻你的退休金去給現職人員的我覺得我們是在政府機關服務本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作"},{"start":96.4,"end":122.885,"text":"好 是非常佩服這個任市長您的大氣您很這個願意把您的這個退休金然後其中的蠻大的一部分可以貢獻給現職人員好 那我們接下來來談另外一個問題就是最近行政院有公布了行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關學校公務人員違法賦錄的建議懲處原則然後包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則"},{"start":124.239,"end":127.683,"text":"請問這份規則是出自人事總署之手嗎這規定是你們所草擬的嗎這陸委會開會決定了 我們來發文你們發文 所以裡面所有建議的事項都是你們寫的是嗎"},{"start":140.188,"end":161.943,"text":"就是條文整個都陸委會他拍板確定了然後我們再轉給所有人所以包含怎麼樣的情況然後要記一個過或者一次記兩個過等等的這些都是陸委會決定的跟你們無關你們只是配合發文是這樣嗎陸委會政策決定的什麼叫政策決定就是這份是誰擬的嘛這份是誰擬的嘛當時是誰提出來的"},{"start":166.997,"end":176.941,"text":"我們是按照陸委會的話我們轉給所有的行政機關好 所以這個就不是出自於人種之手我只是要確定這件事情這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的"},{"start":180.748,"end":197.12,"text":"會寫的轉給我們我們再轉給所以對於人種的立場你們就招單全收你們都沒有去反映這個這樣子的一個建議懲處規則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則請問這樣的一個建議懲處原則它的法律依據在哪裡"},{"start":197.94,"end":219.937,"text":"我們有找相關的政府機關的同仁來表示意見過所以認為沒有違法因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會的最後的一個所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了也不是下屬 因為這是一個政府機關之間的分工的問題可是問題是說這個很明顯就已經違反法律保留原則了我們看一下那個兩岸人民關係條例的第九條"},{"start":223.932,"end":239.546,"text":"從第九條的第三項到第五項了這邊列了第三項第四項這非常清楚嘛檢認實質等級警監四階以下未涉及國家安全利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區就不會受到"},{"start":240.907,"end":267.939,"text":"這個之前就是他每次去大陸都必須要申請許可在我們兩岸人民關係條例第九條第三項寫得很清楚在第四項裡面也有講到對不對你具有這個第四項的這些身份的人那才赴大陸港澳然後才可能必須要經過申請那你們現在的所建議的這樣的一個懲處規則是無差別耶未來公務員他即便是可能一職等二職等他都要受到這樣的規範合理嗎"},{"start":269.571,"end":291.083,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是整個的思考邏輯就是你沒有違規就不會有懲處的這個問題而不是不能去的問題你如果都按照遊戲規則什麼叫做違規您看看我們的兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思現在只是說我有沒有要去之前我要先拿到那個許可對不對 你法律裡面明明就規定"},{"start":296.086,"end":322.889,"text":"實質等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去去了大陸之後他有沒有洩漏國家機密有沒有違反其他的這個相關的這個法規這是另外依照其他的法律來處理這跟你要申請進去許可這是兩件事啊一個是進去嘛 一個是回來嘛要進去有些是有些是要到內政部申請有些是要經過陸委會嘛那我現在的意思是說還有主管機關的問題嘛"},{"start":324.608,"end":351.681,"text":"任市長請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼實質等以下 緊接四階以下的不涉及國家安全利益或機密公務員員是排除在外他們不需要去申請許可就可以進入大陸地區你現在是認為說以後一般的什麼股員 科長 客員 記錄人員都要申請許可嗎"},{"start":354.679,"end":371.338,"text":"我跟委員稍微說明一下啦大概兩岸條例的是屬於陸委會規範的嘛十一以上的然後十一以下的他又有授權移民署他去訂一些規範事實上只要進去原則上都要申請"},{"start":372.657,"end":401.703,"text":"你告訴我哪一條需要申請所以這些現在你們的概念就是現在只要是進入公務機關的所有公務人員他都會涉及國家安全利益或機密所以全部都要一併的管制甚至於連公立學校的行政就是具有行政職務的這些校長院長 系所主管或是乃至於什麼研究中心主任全部都要列管"},{"start":402.799,"end":407.937,"text":"你們現在的規定就是這樣啊是要申請啦 主要是要申請的問題"},{"start":410.879,"end":434.191,"text":"剛才委員你提到的學校是兼行正職的才需要沒有兼行正職的就不需要人事長我告訴你這會發生一個什麼問題好嗎你現在不管是大學中學小學以後未來沒有老師沒有教授願意兼行正職很快就會找不到系主任小學裡面你也找不到各個什麼組長"},{"start":435.912,"end":446.023,"text":"教務主任大家沒有人要去兼行正職了就你的觀點你認為一個小學的體育組長他會涉及到什麼國家機密嗎"},{"start":448.476,"end":468.496,"text":"一個音樂科的科主任或是科老師他會涉及到什麼樣的國家機密嗎我覺得人事長您今天作為行政院的人事總署的最高的長官你應該要勇於來捍衛所有的這些公務員的權利"},{"start":471.069,"end":474.19,"text":"這不是講說你配合陸委會陸委會他我要講陸委會他本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關如果有人要出去大陸的時候他配合去辦理他不是你什麼現在都變成他的爪牙了"},{"start":487.253,"end":504.473,"text":"他要怎麼樣去限制怎麼管制因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有一些很明確的分工那這個法治的主管機關就是陸委會所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範我們必須要follow他的一個規定"},{"start":505.114,"end":531.919,"text":"如果這樣的話 人事總署的法務處可以廢掉了我不知道 我回去會去查我們沒有法務處所以你們掌管這些什麼人事法規你們都沒有責任嗎今天人事長你說這樣的話讓我真的是非常心寒你說依據考機法怎麼處罰我看了半天 我們考機法的規定你是依照哪一個考機法的規定你可以去做這樣的一個懲處規定你可以去做這樣一個懲處"},{"start":534.554,"end":561.406,"text":"他如果不涉及到任 我就講嘛一個很低階的警察一個小學的老師他可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長兼了某一個什麼這個這個職務或是一個大學教授他不過是兼了一個系所的這個主管那他要去他要他們現在連他們去都要受到規定都要受到這樣嚴格的規定這基本上是很不合理的我很希望就是說你們"},{"start":562.026,"end":589.234,"text":"真的要好好的去檢討這個對於你們的這個懈怠你們的職責我也這次也會反映在你的預算上面另外呢我還再加上另外還要再很快的問一個問題就是我們知道現在行政院的一些機關我們看到它的原額的編制都明顯超過你們之前所講的5%對於這個部分你們有沒有什麼看法怎麼樣讓這些聘用人員的禁用比例"},{"start":590.342,"end":606.061,"text":"能夠下降像文化部環境部他們的聘用員額的比例都已經明顯的超高啊對啊文化部看26%的話11%點多都是已經明顯高過你們行政院自己公佈的經用員額5%啊"},{"start":610.021,"end":631.829,"text":"這一個我們在整個報告裡面也有初步去呈現就是因為這些聘用比例偏高的本來就是因為他的專業性我們沒辦法從考試直接來禁用所以我們會讓他聘用的顏額會增加多一點他不是一個普遍現象他是少數集中在某些部會"},{"start":632.708,"end":650.161,"text":"我請任總這裡提供給我一份資料我們看看這是不是一個普遍的現象我剛剛這邊只是列舉一些機關很多的機關基本上它的聘用員額都已經超過你們所訂的5%如果說真的有人員需要的話為什麼不直接增加它原來機關編制內的員額"},{"start":652.602,"end":671.4,"text":"這個部分的話我要求人事長您這邊一個禮拜之內可以提供一份報告給我吧就是說有關於各機關的現在這個聘用員額的金融比例好不好就是麻煩就是要提供給我還有一個問題就是說這個之前有在講就是公務人員還有公教員現在有沒有領取"},{"start":675.063,"end":691.192,"text":"身份證戶籍等等要拒絕那麼我還記得當時也是在這個執行台上有問了人事長如果說有公務人員公教人員他們沒有拒絕你們會不會去追究他們的一些責任"},{"start":692.318,"end":711.051,"text":"我們本來就不會追究啊本來就不會追究上次有答覆委員就是不會追究啊是 那為什麼現在又說是如果說不寫拒絕書的話會連結到他未來可能不能夠升遷然後不能夠調任他是適用在整個公務人員服務法的規範裡面"},{"start":713.467,"end":735.618,"text":"他不簽這個違反他有什麼公務人員法規嗎他有因此是違反公務員服務法裡面的哪個規定嗎現在委員所指教的這一個部分是屬於陸委會他是兩岸人民條例的一些規範所以我們也必須要去遵循"},{"start":737.284,"end":762.094,"text":"人事長我還在講就是您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總署的長官你現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都是聽陸委會的陸委會做的一些不合理的要求你們也都完全配合你知道你們這樣子的做法是傷了多少公教人員的心"},{"start":763.874,"end":790.612,"text":"你有沒有考慮到就揭曉而且它的影響我現在講的而且它的影響的這個效果會是什麼以後沒有尤其是在一般的學校裡面以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦我想這個教育部那邊應該很清楚人事長也很清楚很多的公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接不管他是小主管中主管大主管他不願意去兼主管職的"},{"start":792.844,"end":808.594,"text":"你們搞得這麼嚴格以後就是整個機關裡面會沒有任何的人要來負擔更重要的這個公務還有這個教育的責任所以我希望你們回去檢討那以上謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時57分）謝謝主席，莊召委辛苦了，身體有恙，但還是非常的敬業，開刀後第一天馬上就來我們公聽會簽到，然後今天又主持會議，真的非常的佩服，向您致敬。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要先請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。互相稱讚就有好處。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長早。剛剛吳思瑤委員很擔心這次軍公教人員退休金停砍的修法會影響到現職人員的退休金保障，我想請問人事長，您會有這樣的擔憂嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，我覺得當初設計年改本來就是在整個政府財政穩定的基礎底下，然後讓我們的財政更加永續，因為大家也都知道……"],["翁委員曉玲：您只要很簡單、很簡短的回答我，你會擔心現職人員會領不到退休金嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然大家會有這種疑慮啦，因為現在每一年的年金……"],["翁委員曉玲：這樣子喔？如果你擔心的話，你會同意把你的退休金的一部分撥給現職人員嗎？您什麼時候要退休？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我隨時都可以退休。"],["翁委員曉玲：隨時都可以退休？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：隨時可以退休。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您是很願意奉獻您的退休金去給現職人員？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得我們在政府機關服務，本來就遵循政府的遊戲規則在運作。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，非常佩服人事長的大器，您很願意把您的退休金中滿大一部分貢獻給現職人員。","我們接下來討論另外一個問題，最近行政院公布了「行政院與所屬中央及地方各機關（構）學校公務人員違法（規）赴陸建議懲處原則」，包含赴港澳的建議懲處原則，請問這份規則是出自人事總處之手嗎？這個規定是你們所草擬的嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是陸委會開會決定了，我們來發文。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們發文，所以裡面的所有建議事項都是你們寫的，是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：條文整個都是由陸委會拍板確定，然後我們再轉給所有……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以包含什麼樣的情況要記一個過或者記兩個過等等的，這些都是陸委會決定的，跟你們無關，你們只是配合發文，是這樣嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：陸委會政策決定的。"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼叫政策決定？這份是誰擬的嘛？當時是誰提出來的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們是按照陸委會的發文，我們轉給所有的行政機關。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以這個就不是出自於人總之手，我只是要確定這件事情，這個懲處規則是不是你們所寫的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是陸委會寫的，轉給我們，我們再轉給……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，瞭解。所以站在人總的立場，你們就照單全收都沒有去反映？這樣子的建議懲處原則基本上已經明顯違反法律保留原則，請問這樣一個建議懲處原則的法律依據在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們有找相關政府機關的同仁來表示過意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以呢？認為沒有違法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為也要尊重主管機關陸委會最後的……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在已經變成陸委會的下屬機關了？是陸委會的人事總處？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：也不是下屬，因為這是政府機關之間分工的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是問題是這很明顯已經違反法律保留原則了！我們看一下兩岸人民關係條例第九條，第九條從第三項到第五項，我在螢幕上列了第三項和第四項，第三項規定得非常清楚：「……簡任第十職等及警監四階以下未涉及國家安全、利益或機密之公務員及警察人員赴大陸地區，不在此限……。」就是他們不用每次去大陸都必須申請許可。第四項則規定，具有該項所列身分的人赴大陸地區和港澳才必須經過申請。可是你們現在的建議懲處原則是無差別耶！未來公務員即便是第一職等、第二職等，都要受到這樣的規範，合理嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員說明一下，整個思考邏輯就是，你沒有違規，就不會有懲處的問題，而不是不能去的問題；你如果都按照遊戲規則……"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼叫做違規？您看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面的違規是指什麼意思？現在只是說，我要去之前要先拿到那個許可，對不對？法律裡面明明就規定第十職等以下的不需要經過許可就可以去，去了大陸之後，他有沒有洩漏國家機密、有沒有違反其他相關法規，這是另外依照其他法律來處理，這跟進去要申請許可是兩件事啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一個是進去、一個是回來，要進去有些是要到內政部申請、有些是要經過陸委會……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在的意思……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還有主管機關的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，請您仔細看看兩岸人民關係條例裡面講什麼！第十職等及警監四階以下未涉及國家安全、利益或機密之公務員及警察人員是排除在外的，他們不需要去申請許可，就可以進入大陸地區，你現在是認為以後一般的股員、科長、課員、記錄人員都要申請許可嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員稍微說明一下，兩岸人民關係條例有關第十一職等以上的事情是陸委會規範的，第十一職等以下的又授權移民署去訂定一些規範，事實上只要進去，原則上都要申請。"],["翁委員曉玲：你告訴我是根據哪一條需要申請！所以現在你們的概念就是，只要是進入到公務機關的所有公務人員都會涉及國家安全、利益或機密，所以全部都要有一併的管制，甚至連公立學校具有行政職務的校長、院長、系所主管，乃至於什麼研究中心主任，全部都要列管。你們現在的規定就是這樣啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是要申請啦，主要是要申請的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：但這是不需要申請……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：剛才委員提到的學校部分是兼行政職的才需要，沒有兼行政職的就不需要。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，我告訴你這會發生什麼問題好嗎？你現在不管是大學、中學、小學，未來沒有老師、教授願意兼行政職，很快就會找不到人願意當系主任，在小學裡面也找不到人願意當組長或教務主任，沒有人願意去兼行政職了！就您的觀點，您認為一個小學的體育組長會涉及什麼國家機密嗎？一個音樂科的主任或老師會涉及什麼樣的國家機密嗎？我覺得人事長，您今天作為行政院人事行政總處的最高長官，應該要勇於捍衛所有公務員的權利啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個是責無旁貸……"],["翁委員曉玲：這不是講說你配合陸委會，陸委會它……我要講，陸委會它本來的職責是要配合各個行政機關，如果有人要去大陸的時候，它要配合去辦理，它不是你……怎麼現在變成它的爪牙了！它要怎樣去限制、怎麼管制……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員你不要說……因為我們現在行政院的每一個部會都有很明確的分工，這個法的主管機關就是陸委會，所以陸委會對整個法律條文還有一些規範，我們必須follow它的規定。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果這樣的話，人事總處的法務處可以退掉了啦！我回去會去查……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們沒有法務處、我們沒有法務處啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：人總掌管人事法規，你們都沒有責任嗎？人事長今天說這樣的話，真的讓我非常心寒！你說依據考績法怎麼處罰，我看了半天考績法的規定，你是依照考績法哪個規定可以去做這樣的懲處？他如果不涉及……我就講嘛！一個很低階的警察，或者是一個小學老師可能只是兼了一個什麼體育組組長、兼了某一個職務，或者是一個大學教授，他不過是兼了一個系所的主管，現在連他們要去大陸地區，都要受到這樣嚴格的規定，這基本上是很不合理的！我很希望你們真的要好好地去檢討，對於你們懈怠自己的職責，我也會反映在你們這次的預算上面。","我還要很快地問另外一個問題，就是我們看到現在行政院一些機關的員額編制，發現聘用人員都明顯超過你們之前所講的預算員額的5%，對於要怎麼讓這些聘用人員的進用比率下降，你們有沒有什麼看法？像文化部、環境部，聘用人員的比率都明顯超高，文化部是26%，環境部是百分之十一點多，都明顯高過行政院自己公布的5%。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個部分在我們的報告裡面也有初步呈現，這些聘用比例偏高的，本來就是因為它的專業性，我們沒辦法從考試直接進用，所以我們會讓它的聘用員額多一點；它不是一個普遍現象，它是少數、集中在某些部會。"],["翁委員曉玲：請人總提供給我一份資料，讓我們看看這是不是普遍現象。我的PPT只是列舉一些機關，其實很多機關的聘用員額都已經超過你們所定的5%。如果真的有人員的需要，為什麼不直接增加機關編制內的員額？這個部分我要求人事長在一個禮拜內提供一份報告給我，就是有關現在各機關聘用員額的進用比率，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：麻煩提供給我。","還有一個問題，就是之前有人在講公教人員有沒有領用大陸的身分證或在大陸地區設有戶籍等等要具結，我還記得當時也是在這個質詢臺上問了人事長，如果公教人員沒有具結，你們會不會去追究他們的責任？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們本來就不會追究啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：本來就不會追究？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：上次有答復委員，就是不會追究啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：那為什麼現在又說，如果不寫具結書的話，他未來可能無法升遷、調任？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是適用在整個公務員服務法的規範裡面。"],["翁委員曉玲：他不簽有違反什麼公務人員法規嗎？他有因此違反公務員服務法的哪個規定嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在委員所指教的部分是屬於陸委會，它是兩岸人民條例的規範，所以我們也必須遵循。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，我還在講，您是全中華民國最高的人事行政總處的長官，現在怎麼已經矮化到變成什麼事情都聽陸委會的！陸委會做的一些不合理的要求，你們也都完全配合！你知道你們這樣子的做法傷了多少公教人員的心嗎？你有沒有考慮到它的影響效果會是什麼？以後沒有人……尤其是在一般學校裡面，以後沒有什麼老師願意兼行政職了啦！我想這件事情教育部那邊應該很清楚。人事長，你這裡也很清楚，很多公務員現在是不願意扛責任去接主管職，不管他是小主管、中主管、大主管，他不願意去兼主管職的，你們搞得這麼嚴格，以後真是整個機關裡面沒有任何人要負擔更重要的公務，還有教育的責任，所以我希望你們回去檢討，以上，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","接下來沈發惠委員改書面。","是不是請翁召委先上來？我把他問完好了。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：現在先進行會議程序的宣告：等會在莊瑞雄委員發言完之後，我們就休息5分鐘。","接下來請莊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}}