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00:00:04,590\n好謝謝召委有請我們人事長召委早人事長我看你今天都臭鼻鼻的我上來以後你看那個智慧那個儀板已經降到1000所以大家我來質詢大家身體都很健康但是還是要針對問題來你那個人事總署本來我們是我記得我們上個會議原住民族碎石記憶架\n\n2\n00:00:31,235 --> 00:00:55,871\n这个修法已经从假期从一天延长为三天这个意义重大但是以现在来看的话就是说这个社会跟族人对权力的认知其实也不太够没有办法去落实那上一次我觉得质询的时候我说我们的行事历里面应该清楚去标示岁时计一假不要只付一个王子\n\n3\n00:00:56,872 --> 00:01:11,562\n目標當然就是說你政策要去做一個落實讓請假的人可以安心你告訴我沒問題任市長你又跳票我委員報告啦因為原民會他這部分還沒有公告\n\n4\n00:01:12,463 --> 00:01:37,701\n我們有去找幾天他就還要公告的嘛所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫所以我們現在用替代的方案就是直接用網路Hyperlink過讓他確定了以後直接就到這個網址去查上次我委員大贏的召委大贏的就是碎石祭那三天稍後清澈嘛我有在大贏的嘛但是到不前一陣子延民會那個主流還不給我\n\n5\n00:01:38,652 --> 00:02:08,055\n所以這個就機關的問題啦對啊這個就機關的問題因為我答應我一定最辦法做得到好不好這個政策要去落實要讓請假的人因為這個整個修法我相信這個其實是對一個族群的一個尊重啦那立法院這個地方修法通過那我相信行政部門機關跟機關之間你們本來就是要去溝通好你現在本來你現在已經要在位了嘛你本來也要贏了不然你已經贏出來了嘛\n\n6\n00:02:09,156 --> 00:02:25,570\n是啊,你印好了,你印好了,你賣你的,所以你就空白在那裡啊。我們只好用錯過網站的話,是用替代的方式來執行。當然啦,機關之間其實有時候啊,你說園民會該什麼時候,那你就應該先跟他講。你在印的時候,你告訴他要怎麼做?問題說在什麼地方?還有罰函。\n\n7\n00:02:37,107 --> 00:02:51,257\n原民會就要打屁股了其實這個攸關整個族人裡面他們在請假的時候讓他自己上班的一個單位一個客戶就誰知道嘛說這時候就碎石記憶架這都已經兩年通過了這變國家的一個制度\n\n8\n00:02:54,745 --> 00:03:17,017\n讓他可以很安心好不好這個部分應該是機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通第二個我想上次我在質詢的時候有去提到這個國際的一個警示就是說韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火這個公務機資料全失服務也都停擺\n\n9\n00:03:19,557 --> 00:03:29,549\n連韓國總統都出來講說這罐早就預期到有可能發生的事情竟然讓它去發生了那我想要就教的就是說像我們\n\n10\n00:03:31,943 --> 00:03:56,693\n人事總署你掌管著高基民的一個資料那我們是不是有備援或者異地這樣的一個備份就是說我們建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的一個備援這部分人事總署家謝謝委員我做好事嗎事實上這個裡面分兩個部分一個是系統的備援對於就是\n\n11\n00:03:58,604 --> 00:04:15,571\n辦公室的基盤被撤去另外一座基盤就開了那是第一種第二就是資料備份就是這次韓國的主要就是資料備份你資料備份我以前財政部資料備份一定有三分我現在就是\n\n12\n00:04:19,006 --> 00:04:35,199\n電腦的部分主機的部分系統的部分我們有另外一組備份還有另外一組資料備份在中央新村所以你的部分就是說完整的資料備份還有異地的備份都有具備\n\n13\n00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:52,062\n所以不用煩惱啦不用像韓國那樣賣啦不會發生我也覺得韓國這個我覺得很奇怪很韓國所以這個都是一個借鏡另外大家都知道說是這個AI大爆發那我們很多\n\n14\n00:04:53,022 --> 00:05:11,881\n的公務機關公務人員大家也都要去使用尤其是一些生成式的一個AI系統裡面大家會寫寫公文或者說去發文的時候甚至於問他很聰明但是我們最擔心的就是說你這個AI可以幫助這個行政\n\n15\n00:05:12,882 --> 00:05:33,775\n但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分很有可能造成資料的一個外洩跟信任的一個危機我不知道我們人種這個地方針對於我們這麼多的一個公務人員尤其是我們政府部門也開了很多的一個課程這樣像這個\n\n16\n00:05:36,357 --> 00:05:51,812\n公務員員長很機密的東西把他丟到那個全部GPD好了丟上去了要做公務員要快一點要問問題要快一點那造成你整個機密我如果全部GPD我有後台\n\n17\n00:05:53,488 --> 00:06:14,466\n會有整個資料外洩有信任的一個風險我不曉得那個任市長你的看法我跟昭偉報告大概分兩個部分第一個是國科會他有第一個使用的指引就是所有的機關那我們人種基本上也是basedon這樣的一個指引\n\n18\n00:06:15,106 --> 00:06:38,073\n等於就是一般開放型的opendata的東西本來就是在雲端你可以去透過生成式AI無論是GPT還是其他的去問你輸贏的事情但是到我們開發到我們公務機關有限的我們是採落地型的直接在我們這裡現在第一個階段是這樣第二個階段\n\n19\n00:06:39,173 --> 00:07:07,248\n現在塑化部他也是在去建構一個TryAI的機制讓各個政府機關以並駐一個大內網的概念讓所有政府機關就要用不用讓大家機關各自去設立因為大家機關各自設立的成本會被他管管理的成本會比較好你那個答非所問我的意思就是說公務人員在使用這個AI的時候尤其啊\n\n20\n00:07:08,069 --> 00:07:27,349\n我就跟他講你的A卡手的我就給他機密文件給我寫一張之後給我等一段時間叫他給我生成這個都會涉及到你整個機密文件這個整個資料會有外洩的一個風險啦我在講是在講這個啊那是內控的事情啊什麼內控而已\n\n21\n00:07:28,655 --> 00:07:32,019\n這不是只有內空就算是內空這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣這個是顯然是可以遇見的那你的準備是什麼\n\n22\n00:07:41,810 --> 00:07:58,621\n基本上第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對如果有的話就直接攔下來第二個是從他的消息記錄裡面去查他如果再放在你這個生成系統裡面你們他在使用的時候你們攔得下來嗎\n\n23\n00:07:59,341 --> 00:08:21,730\n他也知名我要做一個公文而已他也要登出我們會有一個crosscheck的機制沒有問題喔我們一定要做那個啊不然出事我們發生事情我們也要有一些紀錄去查詢啊這個非常重要啦這個非常重要啦沒有我要先跟你示警就是說\n\n24\n00:08:26,388 --> 00:08:53,502\n這個顯然也可以一定可以預見的要做好準備啦一定會發現的啊公務機關常常也在洩密太沒想說洩密公務機關啊外人怎麼去給你洩你的密又沒有人知道不是這樣子嗎所以現在都有洩密的風險更何況你用AI你用GPT你用生成式的AI哪有可能他沒有那個風險不會去增加不是嗎\n\n25\n00:08:55,619 --> 00:09:23,756\n風險一定會增加但是我了解大部分的機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP就是把所有可能有疑慮的這一些東西它第一層會攔截第二層是從記錄裡面去trace它有做什麼事情我認為有高風險我們會把它調出來做分析所以我要跟你講就是說你們要本來就是要有制定指引嘛你這指引你一定要有嘛你使用的一個規範嘛\n\n26\n00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:36,022\n這本來你就要去建制的嘛你現在是去大量的訓練讓公務人員去使用讓他更方便思考大家也變聰明了但是我要提醒的就這一些風險啦好不好\n\n27\n00:09:37,546 --> 00:10:02,902\n你一定要去做最後一個問題我來請教就是說看一下我們中央機關中央機構員工一般健康補助的一個我看你們這個標準你就看那個標準很有意思第一類政務人員中央三級機關以上的政府首長司長相當等級以上的主管人員中央二級機關的你每年一次健康檢查是一萬六\n\n28\n00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:24,378\n第二類40歲以上的公教人員還有連續服務滿一年的兩年就一次你給我看第三類第三類我就含有意見未滿40歲且從事有危險安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員每三年\n\n29\n00:10:26,698 --> 00:10:44,152\n當然服務滿一年這合理啦你這個就變三千五這個就比較奇怪一點就是說那既然認為它是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的這頂多算三年一概念你不覺得這樣的一個規定\n\n30\n00:10:47,728 --> 00:11:09,335\n我不曉得任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這要公平這個制度健全這個制度這樣要公平我們任總這個地方是公務人力政策的一個整體的一個協調者你要負責去整合整個福利的一個資源規劃制度讓它更公平才對不是嗎\n\n31\n00:11:12,513 --> 00:11:23,298\n這點我跟委員報告啦我們還要跟保証會合調啦因為健檢要點是一定的啦剛才我跟委員說的是四十月以來四十月以下但是他要考慮的風險黑管的那個是不是那個東西你不可以說一定的啦公教人員公務人員人力資源這樣本來就扔啦福利政策裡面你制度本來就要把它弄得更公平不是這樣子嗎\n\n32\n00:11:45,269 --> 00:12:07,209\n第三類反而三千五你要提高而且他是有危險安全跟衛生顧慮的人你算三年一次第一類人一年是一萬六你這種有危害安全工作跟衛生疑慮的你反而三年才一次而且你錢還更少三千五你這個邏輯在哪裡\n\n33\n00:12:09,915 --> 00:12:36,389\n其實我要跟委員報告因為這個費用的基礎中央的部分應該是OK但是地方我一定要跟地方去合作因為地方很明顯的人有可能會合作所以要去算他的補償第三類不是只有地方啦中央地方都有啊是嘛所以你就不要先給地方中央也有啊我來解讀這個叫大小眼\n\n34\n00:12:38,054 --> 00:12:59,052\n越危險的,你頂到三年那一屆,而且頂到金額,還是更少其實你想想看,我們還規定到四十歲,很多公務人員進去二十幾歲,還不到三十歲就進去了那年輕公務人員,我在那看,大家都有,今天他們沒有\n\n35\n00:13:01,843 --> 00:13:22,975\n你會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了年紀越大其實健康檢查裡面是不是用這樣的一個方式而且那個差距太大一年一次的一萬六三年一次的三千五這個邏輯我想不通其實最重要的就是\n\n36\n00:13:24,963 --> 00:13:25,804\n我會講啦警消啦\n\n37\n00:13:42,071 --> 00:14:09,303\n夜班的人啦機場的外勤人員啦那種工作強度高風險大的三年一次你真的覺得夠你真的覺得哪個第一類有的政務人員不要再騙我了你知道嗎很多很高階的文官不是說他不應該保障他他的工作未必會比在第一線尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消夜班的人員\n\n38\n00:14:11,314 --> 00:14:32,352\n你去比較的時候我怎麼比你跟我說的我都聽不懂的我委員報告啦你說的那個高風險的我們現在已經在簽約當中了啦你跟考試院家跟考試院這邊你們自己本身你們應該去建議去調整啦或者透過院計之間的一個政策協調機制來進行制度上的一個檢討啦\n\n39\n00:14:33,683 --> 00:14:58,748\n有啦最近就是老委員在講的那個喔三天一天的我們這次最近已經要簽名的那就是改造整理一天了我們常常在講賴總統在講健康台灣的對不對這個其實也都是其中的一個一環尤其你們看到新年制度有你們也知道不夠所以你們推出健康99的方案那你今年結束以後黃孟里你明年會不會繼續辦理\n\n40\n00:15:02,039 --> 00:15:18,285\n會喔很好喔那我剛提那個問題我認為啦用你這個反而是更危險的然後有那個健康跟安全之餘的你那個三年一次而且金額是最低應該好好去做一個制度上的一個討論很嚴肅的問題\n\n41\n00:15:20,826 --> 00:15:34,480\n不然高官越高的人他就身體檢查一年就一次就一萬六更危險的警消這個部分三年才一次夜班的人而且是三千五不合理制度上應該去做檢討好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1189\t4590\t好 謝謝召委有請我們人事長召委早人事長我看你今天都臭鼻鼻的我上來以後你看那個智慧那個儀板已經降到1000所以大家我來質詢大家身體都很健康但是還是要針對問題來你那個人事總署本來我們是我記得我們上個會議原住民族碎石記憶架\n31235\t55871\t这个修法已经从假期从一天延长为三天这个意义重大但是以现在来看的话就是说这个社会跟族人对权力的认知其实也不太够没有办法去落实那上一次我觉得质询的时候我说我们的行事历里面应该清楚去标示岁时计一假不要只付一个王子\n56872\t71562\t目標當然就是說你政策要去做一個落實讓請假的人可以安心你告訴我沒問題 任市長你又跳票我委員報告啦因為原民會他這部分還沒有公告\n72463\t97701\t我們有去找幾天 他就還要公告的嘛所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫所以我們現在用替代的方案就是直接用網路Hyperlink過讓他確定了以後直接就到這個網址去查上次我委員大贏的 召委大贏的就是碎石祭那三天 稍後清澈嘛我有在大贏的嘛但是到不前一陣子 延民會那個主流還不給我\n98652\t128055\t所以這個就機關的問題啦對啊這個就機關的問題因為我答應我一定最辦法做得到好不好 這個政策要去落實要讓請假的人因為這個整個修法我相信這個其實是對一個族群的一個尊重啦那立法院這個地方修法通過那我相信行政部門機關跟機關之間你們本來就是要去溝通好你現在本來你現在已經要在位了嘛你本來也要贏了不然你已經贏出來了嘛\n129156\t145570\t是啊,你印好了,你印好了,你賣你的,所以你就空白在那裡啊。我們只好用錯過網站的話,是用替代的方式來執行。當然啦,機關之間其實有時候啊,你說園民會該什麼時候,那你就應該先跟他講。你在印的時候,你告訴他要怎麼做?問題說在什麼地方?還有罰函。\n157107\t171257\t原民會就要打屁股了其實這個攸關整個族人裡面他們在請假的時候讓他自己上班的一個單位一個客戶就誰知道嘛說這時候就碎石記憶架這都已經兩年通過了這變國家的一個制度\n174745\t197017\t讓他可以很安心好不好這個部分應該是機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通第二個我想上次我在質詢的時候有去提到這個國際的一個警示就是說韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火這個公務機資料全失服務也都停擺\n199557\t209549\t連韓國總統都出來講說這罐早就預期到有可能發生的事情竟然讓它去發生了那我想要就教的就是說像我們\n211943\t236693\t人事總署你掌管著高基民的一個資料那我們是不是有備援或者異地這樣的一個備份就是說我們建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的一個備援這部分人事總署家謝謝委員我做好事嗎事實上這個裡面分兩個部分一個是系統的備援對於就是\n238604\t255571\t辦公室的基盤被撤去另外一座基盤就開了那是第一種第二就是資料備份就是這次韓國的主要就是資料備份你資料備份我以前財政部資料備份一定有三分我現在就是\n259006\t275199\t電腦的部分 主機的部分 系統的部分我們有另外一組備份還有另外一組資料備份在中央新村所以你的部分就是說完整的資料備份還有異地的備份都有具備\n276690\t292062\t所以不用煩惱啦 不用像韓國那樣賣啦 不會發生我也覺得韓國這個我覺得很奇怪很韓國所以這個都是一個借鏡另外大家都知道說是這個AI大爆發那我們很多\n293022\t311881\t的公務機關公務人員大家也都要去使用尤其是一些生成式的一個AI系統裡面大家會寫寫公文或者說去發文的時候甚至於問他很聰明但是我們最擔心的就是說你這個AI可以幫助這個行政\n312882\t333775\t但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分很有可能造成資料的一個外洩跟信任的一個危機我不知道我們人種這個地方針對於我們這麼多的一個公務人員尤其是我們政府部門也開了很多的一個課程這樣像這個\n336357\t351812\t公務員員長很機密的東西把他丟到那個全部GPD好了丟上去了要做公務員要快一點要問問題要快一點那造成你整個機密我如果全部GPD我有後台\n353488\t374466\t會有整個資料外洩有信任的一個風險我不曉得那個任市長你的看法我跟昭偉報告大概分兩個部分第一個是國科會他有第一個使用的指引就是所有的機關那我們人種基本上也是based on這樣的一個指引\n375106\t398073\t等於就是一般開放型的open data的東西本來就是在雲端你可以去透過生成式AI無論是GPT還是其他的去問你輸贏的事情但是到我們開發到我們公務機關有限的我們是採落地型的直接在我們這裡現在第一個階段是這樣第二個階段\n399173\t427248\t現在塑化部他也是在去建構一個Try AI的機制讓各個政府機關以並駐一個大內網的概念讓所有政府機關就要用不用讓大家機關各自去設立因為大家機關各自設立的成本會被他管管理的成本會比較好你那個答非所問我的意思就是說公務人員在使用這個AI的時候尤其啊\n428069\t447349\t我就跟他講 你的A卡手的 我就給他機密文件 給我寫一張之後 給我等一段時間 叫他給我生成這個都會涉及到你整個機密文件 這個整個資料會有外洩的一個風險啦 我在講是在講這個啊那是內控的事情啊 什麼內控而已\n448655\t452019\t這不是只有內空就算是內空這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣這個是顯然是可以遇見的那你的準備是什麼\n461810\t478621\t基本上第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對如果有的話就直接攔下來第二個是從他的消息記錄裡面去查他如果再放在你這個生成系統裡面你們他在使用的時候你們攔得下來嗎\n479341\t501730\t他也知名 我要做一個公文而已他也要登出 我們會有一個cross check的機制沒有問題喔我們一定要做那個啊不然出事 我們發生事情我們也要有一些紀錄去查詢啊這個非常重要啦 這個非常重要啦沒有 我要先跟你示警就是說\n506388\t533502\t這個顯然也可以一定可以預見的要做好準備啦一定會發現的啊公務機關常常也在洩密太沒想說洩密公務機關啊外人怎麼去給你洩你的密又沒有人知道不是這樣子嗎所以現在都有洩密的風險更何況你用AI你用GPT你用生成式的AI哪有可能他沒有那個風險不會去增加不是嗎\n535619\t563756\t風險一定會增加但是我了解大部分的機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP就是把所有可能有疑慮的這一些東西它第一層會攔截第二層是從記錄裡面去trace它有做什麼事情我認為有高風險我們會把它調出來做分析所以我要跟你講就是說你們要本來就是要有制定指引嘛你這指引你一定要有嘛你使用的一個規範嘛\n564916\t576022\t這本來你就要去建制的嘛你現在是去大量的訓練讓公務人員去使用讓他更方便思考大家也變聰明了但是我要提醒的就這一些風險啦好不好\n577546\t602902\t你一定要去做 最後一個問題我來請教就是說 看一下我們中央機關中央機構員工一般健康補助的一個我看你們這個標準 你就看那個標準很有意思第一類 政務人員中央三級機關以上的政府首長 司長相當等級以上的主管人員中央二級機關的 你每年一次健康檢查是一萬六\n605350\t624378\t第二類40歲以上的公教人員還有連續服務滿一年的兩年就一次你給我看第三類第三類我就含有意見未滿40歲且從事有危險安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員每三年\n626698\t644152\t當然服務滿一年這合理啦你這個就變三千五這個就比較奇怪一點就是說那既然認為它是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的這頂多算三年一概念你不覺得這樣的一個規定\n647728\t669335\t我不曉得任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這要公平 這個制度 健全這個制度這樣要公平我們任總這個地方是公務人力政策的一個整體的一個協調者你要負責去整合整個福利的一個資源規劃制度讓它更公平才對 不是嗎\n672513\t683298\t這點我跟委員報告啦 我們還要跟保証會合調啦因為健檢要點是一定的啦剛才我跟委員說的是四十月以來四十月以下 但是他要考慮的風險 黑管的那個是不是那個東西你不可以說一定的啦公教人員 公務人員 人力資源 這樣本來就扔啦福利政策裡面 你制度本來就要把它弄得更公平不是這樣子嗎\n705269\t727209\t第三類 反而三千五你要提高而且他是有危險安全跟衛生顧慮的人你算三年一次第一類人一年是一萬六你這種有危害安全工作跟衛生疑慮的你反而三年才一次而且你錢還更少 三千五你這個邏輯在哪裡\n729915\t756389\t其實我要跟委員報告 因為這個費用的基礎中央的部分應該是OK 但是地方我一定要跟地方去合作因為地方很明顯的人有可能會合作 所以要去算他的補償第三類不是只有地方啦中央地方都有啊 是嘛所以你就不要先給地方 中央也有啊我來解讀這個叫大小眼\n758054\t779052\t越危險的,你頂到三年那一屆,而且頂到金額,還是更少其實你想想看,我們還規定到四十歲,很多公務人員進去二十幾歲,還不到三十歲就進去了那年輕公務人員,我在那看,大家都有,今天他們沒有\n781843\t802975\t你會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了年紀越大其實健康檢查裡面是不是用這樣的一個方式而且那個差距太大一年一次的一萬六三年一次的三千五這個邏輯我想不通其實最重要的就是\n804963\t805804\t我會講啦 警消啦\n822071\t849303\t夜班的人啦機場的外勤人員啦那種工作強度高風險大的三年一次你真的覺得夠你真的覺得哪個第一類有的政務人員不要再騙我了你知道嗎很多很高階的文官不是說他不應該保障他他的工作未必會比在第一線尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消夜班的人員\n851314\t872352\t你去比較的時候 我怎麼比你跟我說的 我都聽不懂的我委員報告啦 你說的那個高風險的 我們現在已經在簽約當中了啦你跟考試院家 跟考試院這邊你們自己本身你們應該去建議去調整啦或者透過院計之間的一個政策協調機制來進行制度上的一個檢討啦\n873683\t898748\t有啦 最近就是老委員在講的那個喔 三天一天的 我們這次最近已經要簽名的 那就是改造整理一天了我們常常在講 賴總統在講健康台灣的 對不對這個其實也都是其中的一個一環 尤其你們看到新年制度有 你們也知道不夠所以你們推出健康99的方案 那你今年結束以後 黃孟里你明年會不會繼續辦理\n902039\t918285\t會喔 很好喔那我剛提那個問題我認為啦用你這個反而是更危險的然後有那個健康跟安全之餘的你那個三年一次而且金額是最低應該好好去做一個制度上的一個討論很嚴肅的問題\n920826\t934480\t不然高官越高的人他就身體檢查一年就一次就一萬六更危險的警消這個部分三年才一次夜班的人而且是三千五不合理 制度上應該去做檢討好不好好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝召委有請我們人事長召委早人事長我看你今天都臭鼻鼻的我上來以後你看那個智慧那個儀板已經降到1000所以大家我來質詢大家身體都很健康但是還是要針對問題來你那個人事總署本來我們是我記得我們上個會議原住民族碎石記憶架\n这个修法已经从假期从一天延长为三天这个意义重大但是以现在来看的话就是说这个社会跟族人对权力的认知其实也不太够没有办法去落实那上一次我觉得质询的时候我说我们的行事历里面应该清楚去标示岁时计一假不要只付一个王子\n目標當然就是說你政策要去做一個落實讓請假的人可以安心你告訴我沒問題 任市長你又跳票我委員報告啦因為原民會他這部分還沒有公告\n我們有去找幾天 他就還要公告的嘛所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫所以我們現在用替代的方案就是直接用網路Hyperlink過讓他確定了以後直接就到這個網址去查上次我委員大贏的 召委大贏的就是碎石祭那三天 稍後清澈嘛我有在大贏的嘛但是到不前一陣子 延民會那個主流還不給我\n所以這個就機關的問題啦對啊這個就機關的問題因為我答應我一定最辦法做得到好不好 這個政策要去落實要讓請假的人因為這個整個修法我相信這個其實是對一個族群的一個尊重啦那立法院這個地方修法通過那我相信行政部門機關跟機關之間你們本來就是要去溝通好你現在本來你現在已經要在位了嘛你本來也要贏了不然你已經贏出來了嘛\n是啊,你印好了,你印好了,你賣你的,所以你就空白在那裡啊。我們只好用錯過網站的話,是用替代的方式來執行。當然啦,機關之間其實有時候啊,你說園民會該什麼時候,那你就應該先跟他講。你在印的時候,你告訴他要怎麼做?問題說在什麼地方?還有罰函。\n原民會就要打屁股了其實這個攸關整個族人裡面他們在請假的時候讓他自己上班的一個單位一個客戶就誰知道嘛說這時候就碎石記憶架這都已經兩年通過了這變國家的一個制度\n讓他可以很安心好不好這個部分應該是機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通第二個我想上次我在質詢的時候有去提到這個國際的一個警示就是說韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火這個公務機資料全失服務也都停擺\n連韓國總統都出來講說這罐早就預期到有可能發生的事情竟然讓它去發生了那我想要就教的就是說像我們\n人事總署你掌管著高基民的一個資料那我們是不是有備援或者異地這樣的一個備份就是說我們建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的一個備援這部分人事總署家謝謝委員我做好事嗎事實上這個裡面分兩個部分一個是系統的備援對於就是\n辦公室的基盤被撤去另外一座基盤就開了那是第一種第二就是資料備份就是這次韓國的主要就是資料備份你資料備份我以前財政部資料備份一定有三分我現在就是\n電腦的部分 主機的部分 系統的部分我們有另外一組備份還有另外一組資料備份在中央新村所以你的部分就是說完整的資料備份還有異地的備份都有具備\n所以不用煩惱啦 不用像韓國那樣賣啦 不會發生我也覺得韓國這個我覺得很奇怪很韓國所以這個都是一個借鏡另外大家都知道說是這個AI大爆發那我們很多\n的公務機關公務人員大家也都要去使用尤其是一些生成式的一個AI系統裡面大家會寫寫公文或者說去發文的時候甚至於問他很聰明但是我們最擔心的就是說你這個AI可以幫助這個行政\n但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分很有可能造成資料的一個外洩跟信任的一個危機我不知道我們人種這個地方針對於我們這麼多的一個公務人員尤其是我們政府部門也開了很多的一個課程這樣像這個\n公務員員長很機密的東西把他丟到那個全部GPD好了丟上去了要做公務員要快一點要問問題要快一點那造成你整個機密我如果全部GPD我有後台\n會有整個資料外洩有信任的一個風險我不曉得那個任市長你的看法我跟昭偉報告大概分兩個部分第一個是國科會他有第一個使用的指引就是所有的機關那我們人種基本上也是based on這樣的一個指引\n等於就是一般開放型的open data的東西本來就是在雲端你可以去透過生成式AI無論是GPT還是其他的去問你輸贏的事情但是到我們開發到我們公務機關有限的我們是採落地型的直接在我們這裡現在第一個階段是這樣第二個階段\n現在塑化部他也是在去建構一個Try AI的機制讓各個政府機關以並駐一個大內網的概念讓所有政府機關就要用不用讓大家機關各自去設立因為大家機關各自設立的成本會被他管管理的成本會比較好你那個答非所問我的意思就是說公務人員在使用這個AI的時候尤其啊\n我就跟他講 你的A卡手的 我就給他機密文件 給我寫一張之後 給我等一段時間 叫他給我生成這個都會涉及到你整個機密文件 這個整個資料會有外洩的一個風險啦 我在講是在講這個啊那是內控的事情啊 什麼內控而已\n這不是只有內空就算是內空這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣這個是顯然是可以遇見的那你的準備是什麼\n基本上第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對如果有的話就直接攔下來第二個是從他的消息記錄裡面去查他如果再放在你這個生成系統裡面你們他在使用的時候你們攔得下來嗎\n他也知名 我要做一個公文而已他也要登出 我們會有一個cross check的機制沒有問題喔我們一定要做那個啊不然出事 我們發生事情我們也要有一些紀錄去查詢啊這個非常重要啦 這個非常重要啦沒有 我要先跟你示警就是說\n這個顯然也可以一定可以預見的要做好準備啦一定會發現的啊公務機關常常也在洩密太沒想說洩密公務機關啊外人怎麼去給你洩你的密又沒有人知道不是這樣子嗎所以現在都有洩密的風險更何況你用AI你用GPT你用生成式的AI哪有可能他沒有那個風險不會去增加不是嗎\n風險一定會增加但是我了解大部分的機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP就是把所有可能有疑慮的這一些東西它第一層會攔截第二層是從記錄裡面去trace它有做什麼事情我認為有高風險我們會把它調出來做分析所以我要跟你講就是說你們要本來就是要有制定指引嘛你這指引你一定要有嘛你使用的一個規範嘛\n這本來你就要去建制的嘛你現在是去大量的訓練讓公務人員去使用讓他更方便思考大家也變聰明了但是我要提醒的就這一些風險啦好不好\n你一定要去做 最後一個問題我來請教就是說 看一下我們中央機關中央機構員工一般健康補助的一個我看你們這個標準 你就看那個標準很有意思第一類 政務人員中央三級機關以上的政府首長 司長相當等級以上的主管人員中央二級機關的 你每年一次健康檢查是一萬六\n第二類40歲以上的公教人員還有連續服務滿一年的兩年就一次你給我看第三類第三類我就含有意見未滿40歲且從事有危險安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員每三年\n當然服務滿一年這合理啦你這個就變三千五這個就比較奇怪一點就是說那既然認為它是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的這頂多算三年一概念你不覺得這樣的一個規定\n我不曉得任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這要公平 這個制度 健全這個制度這樣要公平我們任總這個地方是公務人力政策的一個整體的一個協調者你要負責去整合整個福利的一個資源規劃制度讓它更公平才對 不是嗎\n這點我跟委員報告啦 我們還要跟保証會合調啦因為健檢要點是一定的啦剛才我跟委員說的是四十月以來四十月以下 但是他要考慮的風險 黑管的那個是不是那個東西你不可以說一定的啦公教人員 公務人員 人力資源 這樣本來就扔啦福利政策裡面 你制度本來就要把它弄得更公平不是這樣子嗎\n第三類 反而三千五你要提高而且他是有危險安全跟衛生顧慮的人你算三年一次第一類人一年是一萬六你這種有危害安全工作跟衛生疑慮的你反而三年才一次而且你錢還更少 三千五你這個邏輯在哪裡\n其實我要跟委員報告 因為這個費用的基礎中央的部分應該是OK 但是地方我一定要跟地方去合作因為地方很明顯的人有可能會合作 所以要去算他的補償第三類不是只有地方啦中央地方都有啊 是嘛所以你就不要先給地方 中央也有啊我來解讀這個叫大小眼\n越危險的,你頂到三年那一屆,而且頂到金額,還是更少其實你想想看,我們還規定到四十歲,很多公務人員進去二十幾歲,還不到三十歲就進去了那年輕公務人員,我在那看,大家都有,今天他們沒有\n你會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了年紀越大其實健康檢查裡面是不是用這樣的一個方式而且那個差距太大一年一次的一萬六三年一次的三千五這個邏輯我想不通其實最重要的就是\n我會講啦 警消啦\n夜班的人啦機場的外勤人員啦那種工作強度高風險大的三年一次你真的覺得夠你真的覺得哪個第一類有的政務人員不要再騙我了你知道嗎很多很高階的文官不是說他不應該保障他他的工作未必會比在第一線尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消夜班的人員\n你去比較的時候 我怎麼比你跟我說的 我都聽不懂的我委員報告啦 你說的那個高風險的 我們現在已經在簽約當中了啦你跟考試院家 跟考試院這邊你們自己本身你們應該去建議去調整啦或者透過院計之間的一個政策協調機制來進行制度上的一個檢討啦\n有啦 最近就是老委員在講的那個喔 三天一天的 我們這次最近已經要簽名的 那就是改造整理一天了我們常常在講 賴總統在講健康台灣的 對不對這個其實也都是其中的一個一環 尤其你們看到新年制度有 你們也知道不夠所以你們推出健康99的方案 那你今年結束以後 黃孟里你明年會不會繼續辦理\n會喔 很好喔那我剛提那個問題我認為啦用你這個反而是更危險的然後有那個健康跟安全之餘的你那個三年一次而且金額是最低應該好好去做一個制度上的一個討論很嚴肅的問題\n不然高官越高的人他就身體檢查一年就一次就一萬六更危險的警消這個部分三年才一次夜班的人而且是三千五不合理 制度上應該去做檢討好不好好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.189 --> 00:04.590\n好謝謝召委有請我們人事長召委早人事長我看你今天都臭鼻鼻的我上來以後你看那個智慧那個儀板已經降到1000所以大家我來質詢大家身體都很健康但是還是要針對問題來你那個人事總署本來我們是我記得我們上個會議原住民族碎石記憶架\n\n00:31.235 --> 00:55.871\n这个修法已经从假期从一天延长为三天这个意义重大但是以现在来看的话就是说这个社会跟族人对权力的认知其实也不太够没有办法去落实那上一次我觉得质询的时候我说我们的行事历里面应该清楚去标示岁时计一假不要只付一个王子\n\n00:56.872 --> 01:11.562\n目標當然就是說你政策要去做一個落實讓請假的人可以安心你告訴我沒問題任市長你又跳票我委員報告啦因為原民會他這部分還沒有公告\n\n01:12.463 --> 01:37.701\n我們有去找幾天他就還要公告的嘛所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫所以我們現在用替代的方案就是直接用網路Hyperlink過讓他確定了以後直接就到這個網址去查上次我委員大贏的召委大贏的就是碎石祭那三天稍後清澈嘛我有在大贏的嘛但是到不前一陣子延民會那個主流還不給我\n\n01:38.652 --> 02:08.055\n所以這個就機關的問題啦對啊這個就機關的問題因為我答應我一定最辦法做得到好不好這個政策要去落實要讓請假的人因為這個整個修法我相信這個其實是對一個族群的一個尊重啦那立法院這個地方修法通過那我相信行政部門機關跟機關之間你們本來就是要去溝通好你現在本來你現在已經要在位了嘛你本來也要贏了不然你已經贏出來了嘛\n\n02:09.156 --> 02:25.570\n是啊,你印好了,你印好了,你賣你的,所以你就空白在那裡啊。我們只好用錯過網站的話,是用替代的方式來執行。當然啦,機關之間其實有時候啊,你說園民會該什麼時候,那你就應該先跟他講。你在印的時候,你告訴他要怎麼做?問題說在什麼地方?還有罰函。\n\n02:37.107 --> 02:51.257\n原民會就要打屁股了其實這個攸關整個族人裡面他們在請假的時候讓他自己上班的一個單位一個客戶就誰知道嘛說這時候就碎石記憶架這都已經兩年通過了這變國家的一個制度\n\n02:54.745 --> 03:17.017\n讓他可以很安心好不好這個部分應該是機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通第二個我想上次我在質詢的時候有去提到這個國際的一個警示就是說韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火這個公務機資料全失服務也都停擺\n\n03:19.557 --> 03:29.549\n連韓國總統都出來講說這罐早就預期到有可能發生的事情竟然讓它去發生了那我想要就教的就是說像我們\n\n03:31.943 --> 03:56.693\n人事總署你掌管著高基民的一個資料那我們是不是有備援或者異地這樣的一個備份就是說我們建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的一個備援這部分人事總署家謝謝委員我做好事嗎事實上這個裡面分兩個部分一個是系統的備援對於就是\n\n03:58.604 --> 04:15.571\n辦公室的基盤被撤去另外一座基盤就開了那是第一種第二就是資料備份就是這次韓國的主要就是資料備份你資料備份我以前財政部資料備份一定有三分我現在就是\n\n04:19.006 --> 04:35.199\n電腦的部分主機的部分系統的部分我們有另外一組備份還有另外一組資料備份在中央新村所以你的部分就是說完整的資料備份還有異地的備份都有具備\n\n04:36.690 --> 04:52.062\n所以不用煩惱啦不用像韓國那樣賣啦不會發生我也覺得韓國這個我覺得很奇怪很韓國所以這個都是一個借鏡另外大家都知道說是這個AI大爆發那我們很多\n\n04:53.022 --> 05:11.881\n的公務機關公務人員大家也都要去使用尤其是一些生成式的一個AI系統裡面大家會寫寫公文或者說去發文的時候甚至於問他很聰明但是我們最擔心的就是說你這個AI可以幫助這個行政\n\n05:12.882 --> 05:33.775\n但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分很有可能造成資料的一個外洩跟信任的一個危機我不知道我們人種這個地方針對於我們這麼多的一個公務人員尤其是我們政府部門也開了很多的一個課程這樣像這個\n\n05:36.357 --> 05:51.812\n公務員員長很機密的東西把他丟到那個全部GPD好了丟上去了要做公務員要快一點要問問題要快一點那造成你整個機密我如果全部GPD我有後台\n\n05:53.488 --> 06:14.466\n會有整個資料外洩有信任的一個風險我不曉得那個任市長你的看法我跟昭偉報告大概分兩個部分第一個是國科會他有第一個使用的指引就是所有的機關那我們人種基本上也是basedon這樣的一個指引\n\n06:15.106 --> 06:38.073\n等於就是一般開放型的opendata的東西本來就是在雲端你可以去透過生成式AI無論是GPT還是其他的去問你輸贏的事情但是到我們開發到我們公務機關有限的我們是採落地型的直接在我們這裡現在第一個階段是這樣第二個階段\n\n06:39.173 --> 07:07.248\n現在塑化部他也是在去建構一個TryAI的機制讓各個政府機關以並駐一個大內網的概念讓所有政府機關就要用不用讓大家機關各自去設立因為大家機關各自設立的成本會被他管管理的成本會比較好你那個答非所問我的意思就是說公務人員在使用這個AI的時候尤其啊\n\n07:08.069 --> 07:27.349\n我就跟他講你的A卡手的我就給他機密文件給我寫一張之後給我等一段時間叫他給我生成這個都會涉及到你整個機密文件這個整個資料會有外洩的一個風險啦我在講是在講這個啊那是內控的事情啊什麼內控而已\n\n07:28.655 --> 07:32.019\n這不是只有內空就算是內空這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣這個是顯然是可以遇見的那你的準備是什麼\n\n07:41.810 --> 07:58.621\n基本上第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對如果有的話就直接攔下來第二個是從他的消息記錄裡面去查他如果再放在你這個生成系統裡面你們他在使用的時候你們攔得下來嗎\n\n07:59.341 --> 08:21.730\n他也知名我要做一個公文而已他也要登出我們會有一個crosscheck的機制沒有問題喔我們一定要做那個啊不然出事我們發生事情我們也要有一些紀錄去查詢啊這個非常重要啦這個非常重要啦沒有我要先跟你示警就是說\n\n08:26.388 --> 08:53.502\n這個顯然也可以一定可以預見的要做好準備啦一定會發現的啊公務機關常常也在洩密太沒想說洩密公務機關啊外人怎麼去給你洩你的密又沒有人知道不是這樣子嗎所以現在都有洩密的風險更何況你用AI你用GPT你用生成式的AI哪有可能他沒有那個風險不會去增加不是嗎\n\n08:55.619 --> 09:23.756\n風險一定會增加但是我了解大部分的機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP就是把所有可能有疑慮的這一些東西它第一層會攔截第二層是從記錄裡面去trace它有做什麼事情我認為有高風險我們會把它調出來做分析所以我要跟你講就是說你們要本來就是要有制定指引嘛你這指引你一定要有嘛你使用的一個規範嘛\n\n09:24.916 --> 09:36.022\n這本來你就要去建制的嘛你現在是去大量的訓練讓公務人員去使用讓他更方便思考大家也變聰明了但是我要提醒的就這一些風險啦好不好\n\n09:37.546 --> 10:02.902\n你一定要去做最後一個問題我來請教就是說看一下我們中央機關中央機構員工一般健康補助的一個我看你們這個標準你就看那個標準很有意思第一類政務人員中央三級機關以上的政府首長司長相當等級以上的主管人員中央二級機關的你每年一次健康檢查是一萬六\n\n10:05.350 --> 10:24.378\n第二類40歲以上的公教人員還有連續服務滿一年的兩年就一次你給我看第三類第三類我就含有意見未滿40歲且從事有危險安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員每三年\n\n10:26.698 --> 10:44.152\n當然服務滿一年這合理啦你這個就變三千五這個就比較奇怪一點就是說那既然認為它是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的這頂多算三年一概念你不覺得這樣的一個規定\n\n10:47.728 --> 11:09.335\n我不曉得任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這要公平這個制度健全這個制度這樣要公平我們任總這個地方是公務人力政策的一個整體的一個協調者你要負責去整合整個福利的一個資源規劃制度讓它更公平才對不是嗎\n\n11:12.513 --> 11:23.298\n這點我跟委員報告啦我們還要跟保証會合調啦因為健檢要點是一定的啦剛才我跟委員說的是四十月以來四十月以下但是他要考慮的風險黑管的那個是不是那個東西你不可以說一定的啦公教人員公務人員人力資源這樣本來就扔啦福利政策裡面你制度本來就要把它弄得更公平不是這樣子嗎\n\n11:45.269 --> 12:07.209\n第三類反而三千五你要提高而且他是有危險安全跟衛生顧慮的人你算三年一次第一類人一年是一萬六你這種有危害安全工作跟衛生疑慮的你反而三年才一次而且你錢還更少三千五你這個邏輯在哪裡\n\n12:09.915 --> 12:36.389\n其實我要跟委員報告因為這個費用的基礎中央的部分應該是OK但是地方我一定要跟地方去合作因為地方很明顯的人有可能會合作所以要去算他的補償第三類不是只有地方啦中央地方都有啊是嘛所以你就不要先給地方中央也有啊我來解讀這個叫大小眼\n\n12:38.054 --> 12:59.052\n越危險的,你頂到三年那一屆,而且頂到金額,還是更少其實你想想看,我們還規定到四十歲,很多公務人員進去二十幾歲,還不到三十歲就進去了那年輕公務人員,我在那看,大家都有,今天他們沒有\n\n13:01.843 --> 13:22.975\n你會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了年紀越大其實健康檢查裡面是不是用這樣的一個方式而且那個差距太大一年一次的一萬六三年一次的三千五這個邏輯我想不通其實最重要的就是\n\n13:24.963 --> 13:25.804\n我會講啦警消啦\n\n13:42.071 --> 14:09.303\n夜班的人啦機場的外勤人員啦那種工作強度高風險大的三年一次你真的覺得夠你真的覺得哪個第一類有的政務人員不要再騙我了你知道嗎很多很高階的文官不是說他不應該保障他他的工作未必會比在第一線尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消夜班的人員\n\n14:11.314 --> 14:32.352\n你去比較的時候我怎麼比你跟我說的我都聽不懂的我委員報告啦你說的那個高風險的我們現在已經在簽約當中了啦你跟考試院家跟考試院這邊你們自己本身你們應該去建議去調整啦或者透過院計之間的一個政策協調機制來進行制度上的一個檢討啦\n\n14:33.683 --> 14:58.748\n有啦最近就是老委員在講的那個喔三天一天的我們這次最近已經要簽名的那就是改造整理一天了我們常常在講賴總統在講健康台灣的對不對這個其實也都是其中的一個一環尤其你們看到新年制度有你們也知道不夠所以你們推出健康99的方案那你今年結束以後黃孟里你明年會不會繼續辦理\n\n15:02.039 --> 15:18.285\n會喔很好喔那我剛提那個問題我認為啦用你這個反而是更危險的然後有那個健康跟安全之餘的你那個三年一次而且金額是最低應該好好去做一個制度上的一個討論很嚴肅的問題\n\n15:20.826 --> 15:34.480\n不然高官越高的人他就身體檢查一年就一次就一萬六更危險的警消這個部分三年才一次夜班的人而且是三千五不合理制度上應該去做檢討好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.189,"end":4.59,"text":"好 謝謝召委有請我們人事長召委早人事長我看你今天都臭鼻鼻的我上來以後你看那個智慧那個儀板已經降到1000所以大家我來質詢大家身體都很健康但是還是要針對問題來你那個人事總署本來我們是我記得我們上個會議原住民族碎石記憶架"},{"start":31.235,"end":55.871,"text":"这个修法已经从假期从一天延长为三天这个意义重大但是以现在来看的话就是说这个社会跟族人对权力的认知其实也不太够没有办法去落实那上一次我觉得质询的时候我说我们的行事历里面应该清楚去标示岁时计一假不要只付一个王子"},{"start":56.872,"end":71.562,"text":"目標當然就是說你政策要去做一個落實讓請假的人可以安心你告訴我沒問題 任市長你又跳票我委員報告啦因為原民會他這部分還沒有公告"},{"start":72.463,"end":97.701,"text":"我們有去找幾天 他就還要公告的嘛所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫所以我們現在用替代的方案就是直接用網路Hyperlink過讓他確定了以後直接就到這個網址去查上次我委員大贏的 召委大贏的就是碎石祭那三天 稍後清澈嘛我有在大贏的嘛但是到不前一陣子 延民會那個主流還不給我"},{"start":98.652,"end":128.055,"text":"所以這個就機關的問題啦對啊這個就機關的問題因為我答應我一定最辦法做得到好不好 這個政策要去落實要讓請假的人因為這個整個修法我相信這個其實是對一個族群的一個尊重啦那立法院這個地方修法通過那我相信行政部門機關跟機關之間你們本來就是要去溝通好你現在本來你現在已經要在位了嘛你本來也要贏了不然你已經贏出來了嘛"},{"start":129.156,"end":145.57,"text":"是啊,你印好了,你印好了,你賣你的,所以你就空白在那裡啊。我們只好用錯過網站的話,是用替代的方式來執行。當然啦,機關之間其實有時候啊,你說園民會該什麼時候,那你就應該先跟他講。你在印的時候,你告訴他要怎麼做?問題說在什麼地方?還有罰函。"},{"start":157.107,"end":171.257,"text":"原民會就要打屁股了其實這個攸關整個族人裡面他們在請假的時候讓他自己上班的一個單位一個客戶就誰知道嘛說這時候就碎石記憶架這都已經兩年通過了這變國家的一個制度"},{"start":174.745,"end":197.017,"text":"讓他可以很安心好不好這個部分應該是機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通第二個我想上次我在質詢的時候有去提到這個國際的一個警示就是說韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火這個公務機資料全失服務也都停擺"},{"start":199.557,"end":209.549,"text":"連韓國總統都出來講說這罐早就預期到有可能發生的事情竟然讓它去發生了那我想要就教的就是說像我們"},{"start":211.943,"end":236.693,"text":"人事總署你掌管著高基民的一個資料那我們是不是有備援或者異地這樣的一個備份就是說我們建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的一個備援這部分人事總署家謝謝委員我做好事嗎事實上這個裡面分兩個部分一個是系統的備援對於就是"},{"start":238.604,"end":255.571,"text":"辦公室的基盤被撤去另外一座基盤就開了那是第一種第二就是資料備份就是這次韓國的主要就是資料備份你資料備份我以前財政部資料備份一定有三分我現在就是"},{"start":259.006,"end":275.199,"text":"電腦的部分 主機的部分 系統的部分我們有另外一組備份還有另外一組資料備份在中央新村所以你的部分就是說完整的資料備份還有異地的備份都有具備"},{"start":276.69,"end":292.062,"text":"所以不用煩惱啦 不用像韓國那樣賣啦 不會發生我也覺得韓國這個我覺得很奇怪很韓國所以這個都是一個借鏡另外大家都知道說是這個AI大爆發那我們很多"},{"start":293.022,"end":311.881,"text":"的公務機關公務人員大家也都要去使用尤其是一些生成式的一個AI系統裡面大家會寫寫公文或者說去發文的時候甚至於問他很聰明但是我們最擔心的就是說你這個AI可以幫助這個行政"},{"start":312.882,"end":333.775,"text":"但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分很有可能造成資料的一個外洩跟信任的一個危機我不知道我們人種這個地方針對於我們這麼多的一個公務人員尤其是我們政府部門也開了很多的一個課程這樣像這個"},{"start":336.357,"end":351.812,"text":"公務員員長很機密的東西把他丟到那個全部GPD好了丟上去了要做公務員要快一點要問問題要快一點那造成你整個機密我如果全部GPD我有後台"},{"start":353.488,"end":374.466,"text":"會有整個資料外洩有信任的一個風險我不曉得那個任市長你的看法我跟昭偉報告大概分兩個部分第一個是國科會他有第一個使用的指引就是所有的機關那我們人種基本上也是based on這樣的一個指引"},{"start":375.106,"end":398.073,"text":"等於就是一般開放型的open data的東西本來就是在雲端你可以去透過生成式AI無論是GPT還是其他的去問你輸贏的事情但是到我們開發到我們公務機關有限的我們是採落地型的直接在我們這裡現在第一個階段是這樣第二個階段"},{"start":399.173,"end":427.248,"text":"現在塑化部他也是在去建構一個Try AI的機制讓各個政府機關以並駐一個大內網的概念讓所有政府機關就要用不用讓大家機關各自去設立因為大家機關各自設立的成本會被他管管理的成本會比較好你那個答非所問我的意思就是說公務人員在使用這個AI的時候尤其啊"},{"start":428.069,"end":447.349,"text":"我就跟他講 你的A卡手的 我就給他機密文件 給我寫一張之後 給我等一段時間 叫他給我生成這個都會涉及到你整個機密文件 這個整個資料會有外洩的一個風險啦 我在講是在講這個啊那是內控的事情啊 什麼內控而已"},{"start":448.655,"end":452.019,"text":"這不是只有內空就算是內空這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣這個是顯然是可以遇見的那你的準備是什麼"},{"start":461.81,"end":478.621,"text":"基本上第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對如果有的話就直接攔下來第二個是從他的消息記錄裡面去查他如果再放在你這個生成系統裡面你們他在使用的時候你們攔得下來嗎"},{"start":479.341,"end":501.73,"text":"他也知名 我要做一個公文而已他也要登出 我們會有一個cross check的機制沒有問題喔我們一定要做那個啊不然出事 我們發生事情我們也要有一些紀錄去查詢啊這個非常重要啦 這個非常重要啦沒有 我要先跟你示警就是說"},{"start":506.388,"end":533.502,"text":"這個顯然也可以一定可以預見的要做好準備啦一定會發現的啊公務機關常常也在洩密太沒想說洩密公務機關啊外人怎麼去給你洩你的密又沒有人知道不是這樣子嗎所以現在都有洩密的風險更何況你用AI你用GPT你用生成式的AI哪有可能他沒有那個風險不會去增加不是嗎"},{"start":535.619,"end":563.756,"text":"風險一定會增加但是我了解大部分的機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP就是把所有可能有疑慮的這一些東西它第一層會攔截第二層是從記錄裡面去trace它有做什麼事情我認為有高風險我們會把它調出來做分析所以我要跟你講就是說你們要本來就是要有制定指引嘛你這指引你一定要有嘛你使用的一個規範嘛"},{"start":564.916,"end":576.022,"text":"這本來你就要去建制的嘛你現在是去大量的訓練讓公務人員去使用讓他更方便思考大家也變聰明了但是我要提醒的就這一些風險啦好不好"},{"start":577.546,"end":602.902,"text":"你一定要去做 最後一個問題我來請教就是說 看一下我們中央機關中央機構員工一般健康補助的一個我看你們這個標準 你就看那個標準很有意思第一類 政務人員中央三級機關以上的政府首長 司長相當等級以上的主管人員中央二級機關的 你每年一次健康檢查是一萬六"},{"start":605.35,"end":624.378,"text":"第二類40歲以上的公教人員還有連續服務滿一年的兩年就一次你給我看第三類第三類我就含有意見未滿40歲且從事有危險安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員每三年"},{"start":626.698,"end":644.152,"text":"當然服務滿一年這合理啦你這個就變三千五這個就比較奇怪一點就是說那既然認為它是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的這頂多算三年一概念你不覺得這樣的一個規定"},{"start":647.728,"end":669.335,"text":"我不曉得任市長你的看法是怎麼樣這要公平 這個制度 健全這個制度這樣要公平我們任總這個地方是公務人力政策的一個整體的一個協調者你要負責去整合整個福利的一個資源規劃制度讓它更公平才對 不是嗎"},{"start":672.513,"end":683.298,"text":"這點我跟委員報告啦 我們還要跟保証會合調啦因為健檢要點是一定的啦剛才我跟委員說的是四十月以來四十月以下 但是他要考慮的風險 黑管的那個是不是那個東西你不可以說一定的啦公教人員 公務人員 人力資源 這樣本來就扔啦福利政策裡面 你制度本來就要把它弄得更公平不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":705.269,"end":727.209,"text":"第三類 反而三千五你要提高而且他是有危險安全跟衛生顧慮的人你算三年一次第一類人一年是一萬六你這種有危害安全工作跟衛生疑慮的你反而三年才一次而且你錢還更少 三千五你這個邏輯在哪裡"},{"start":729.915,"end":756.389,"text":"其實我要跟委員報告 因為這個費用的基礎中央的部分應該是OK 但是地方我一定要跟地方去合作因為地方很明顯的人有可能會合作 所以要去算他的補償第三類不是只有地方啦中央地方都有啊 是嘛所以你就不要先給地方 中央也有啊我來解讀這個叫大小眼"},{"start":758.054,"end":779.052,"text":"越危險的,你頂到三年那一屆,而且頂到金額,還是更少其實你想想看,我們還規定到四十歲,很多公務人員進去二十幾歲,還不到三十歲就進去了那年輕公務人員,我在那看,大家都有,今天他們沒有"},{"start":781.843,"end":802.975,"text":"你會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了年紀越大其實健康檢查裡面是不是用這樣的一個方式而且那個差距太大一年一次的一萬六三年一次的三千五這個邏輯我想不通其實最重要的就是"},{"start":804.963,"end":805.804,"text":"我會講啦 警消啦"},{"start":822.071,"end":849.303,"text":"夜班的人啦機場的外勤人員啦那種工作強度高風險大的三年一次你真的覺得夠你真的覺得哪個第一類有的政務人員不要再騙我了你知道嗎很多很高階的文官不是說他不應該保障他他的工作未必會比在第一線尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消夜班的人員"},{"start":851.314,"end":872.352,"text":"你去比較的時候 我怎麼比你跟我說的 我都聽不懂的我委員報告啦 你說的那個高風險的 我們現在已經在簽約當中了啦你跟考試院家 跟考試院這邊你們自己本身你們應該去建議去調整啦或者透過院計之間的一個政策協調機制來進行制度上的一個檢討啦"},{"start":873.683,"end":898.748,"text":"有啦 最近就是老委員在講的那個喔 三天一天的 我們這次最近已經要簽名的 那就是改造整理一天了我們常常在講 賴總統在講健康台灣的 對不對這個其實也都是其中的一個一環 尤其你們看到新年制度有 你們也知道不夠所以你們推出健康99的方案 那你今年結束以後 黃孟里你明年會不會繼續辦理"},{"start":902.039,"end":918.285,"text":"會喔 很好喔那我剛提那個問題我認為啦用你這個反而是更危險的然後有那個健康跟安全之餘的你那個三年一次而且金額是最低應該好好去做一個制度上的一個討論很嚴肅的問題"},{"start":920.826,"end":934.48,"text":"不然高官越高的人他就身體檢查一年就一次就一萬六更危險的警消這個部分三年才一次夜班的人而且是三千五不合理 制度上應該去做檢討好不好好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時11分）謝謝召委。有請我們人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：召委早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長，我看你們今天都笑咪咪的，我上來以後，你看那個智慧儀板已經降到1000ppm了，所以我來質詢，大家身體都很健康。但是還是要針對問題，人事總處，我記得我們上個會期，有關原住民族歲時祭儀假這個修法，假期已經從1天延長為3天，這個意義重大，但是以現在來看的話，這個假、這個社會跟族人對權利的認知其實也不太夠，沒有辦法去落實。上一次我質詢的時候，我說我們的行事曆裡面應該清楚去標示歲時祭儀假，不要只附一個網址，目標當然就是政策要落實，讓請假的人可以安心，你跟我說沒問題，人事長，結果你又跳票。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，因為原民會這部分還沒有公告，我們有去催，催了好幾次，它都還沒公告，所以日期是哪幾天就沒辦法寫，所以我們現在用替代的方案，就是直接用網路hyperlink，讓它確定了以後，直接就到這個網址去查。上次我跟委員答應的、跟召委答應的就是把歲時祭儀那3天寫清楚，我有答應你這件事情，但是到目前為止，原民會還沒把那些資料給我。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個就是機關的問題。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啊！因為我答應你，我一定會想辦法做到。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好不好？這個政策要去落實、要讓請假的人可以安心，因為這整個修法，我相信其實是對一個族群的尊重，立法院這個地方修法通過，我相信行政部門，機關跟機關之間，你們本來就是要去溝通好，現在已經要11月了，你們本來也要印了，說不定你們已經印出來了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們印好了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！你印好了。你印好了，明年的時候，你就空白在那裡了！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我們只好透過網站的方式，用替代的方式來呈現。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不好啦！機關之間，你說原民會該什麼時候，你應該先跟它講，你在印的時候，你有去跟它商量嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們事先跟他們說了好幾次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：問題出在什麼地方？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：而且還有發函。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有發函？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有、有，不是只有用說的，還有發文。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那麼原民會就要打屁股了，其實這攸關整個族人在請假的權利，讓上班的單位，一拿去就馬上知道什麼時候是歲時祭儀假，立法院也通過了，這變成國家的一個制度，讓他可以很安心，好不好？有關這個部分，機關之間應該是大家進一步去做一個溝通。","第二個，上次我在質詢的時候，有提到國際的警示，韓國的資料中心發生那一場大火，公務資料全失，服務也都停擺，連韓國總統都出來講，這種早就預期到有可能發生的事情，竟然讓它發生了。我想要就教的就是，像人事總處掌管著高機敏的資料，我們是不是有備援或者異地的備份？我們要建立一個完整資料備份跟異地的備援，有關這部分，人事總處有沒有做好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員，事實上，這裡面分兩個部分，一個是系統的備援，就是我辦公室的機房死掉了，另外一組機房就開啟，那是第一種。第二個就是資料備份，這次韓國主要就是資料備份，我以前在財政部，我們資料備份一定有3份。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要問你現在呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我現在就是電腦的部分、主機的部分、系統的部分，我們有另外一組備份，還有另外一組資料備份在中興新村，我們有主機，還有資料的備份。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你的部分就是完整的資料備份，還有異地的備份都有具備了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定要的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以不用擔心、不用像韓國這樣？不會發生？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：韓國做到這樣，我也覺得很奇怪。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很「譀古」吧？所以這都是借鏡。另外，大家都知道AI大爆發，很多公務機關的公務人員，大家也都去使用，尤其是一些生成式的AI系統裡面，大家會寫寫公文或者發文的時候甚至會問它，這很聰明。但是我們最擔心的是，AI可以幫助行政，但是如果涉及到安全跟倫理的部分，很有可能造成資料的外洩跟信任的危機。我不知道人總針對於我們這麼多的公務人員，尤其是政府部門也開了很多的課程，像是公務人員將很機密的東西丟到ChatGPT好了，丟上去了，要做公文也比較快，要問問題也比較快，造成整個機密有安全的疑慮。因為ChatGPT有後臺，會有整個資料外洩、有信任的風險，我不曉得人事長的看法如何？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟召委報告，大概分兩個部分，第一個，國科會有訂定使用的指引for所有的機關，我們人總基本上也是based on這樣的指引，等於就是一般開放型open data的東西本來就是在雲端，你可以透過生成式AI，不論是ChatGPT還是Gemini等其他的去詢問你私人的事情，但是跟我們開會、跟公務機關有關的，我們是採落地型的，直接在我們這裡，現在第一個階段是這樣。第二個階段，現在數發部也是在建構一個TryAI的機制，讓各個政府機關變成一個大內網的概念，讓所有政府機關去那裡用，不用讓每個機關各自去設立，因為每個機關各自設立的成本會比較高、管理的成本會比較高。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不，你答非所問，我的意思是公務人員在使用AI的時候，尤其我就跟你說，假設我是你的部下，我就將機密文件這樣拍一張之後就丟上去，叫它給我生成，這都會涉及到整個機密文件、整個資料有外洩的風險，我是在說這個。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那是內控的事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼才內控而已？什麼這只有內控而已？這不是只有內控，但是就算是內控，這個顯然就跟韓國那個一樣，這個是顯然可以預見的，那麼你的準備是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，第一個我們可以做的就是把這些資料去做simulation的比對，如果有的話就直接攔下來。第二個是從他的交易紀錄裡面去查……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們攔得下嗎？他如果放在你們的生成系統裡面，他在使用的時候，你們攔得下來嗎？他覺得他只是要做一個公文而已，他把機密……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，假如他要丟出去，我們會有一個crosscheck的機制。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有問題？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們一定要做那個，不然等一下出事，發生事情，我們也要有一些紀錄去追溯查詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個非常重要。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：剛才召委說的那是紀錄的查詢……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要先跟你示警的是，這個顯然你一定可以預見的，要做好準備，一定會發生的，公務機關常常在洩密，哪會沒有？最會洩密的就是公務機關啊！外人怎麼去洩你的密，又沒有人知道，不是這樣子嗎？現在都有洩密的風險，更何況你用AI、你用ChatGPT，你用生成式的AI，哪有可能它的風險不會增加？不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：風險一定會增加，但是據我了解，大部分機關都有買一個偵測軟體叫DLP，就是把所有可能有疑慮的東西，它第一層會攔截。第二層是從紀錄裡面去trace他有做什麼事情，如果覺得有高風險的，我們會調出來做分析。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我要跟你講的就是你們本來就應該要制定指引，這個指引一定要有，也就是你使用的規範，這本來就要去建置的。你現在是大量的訓練，讓公務人員去使用、讓他更方便，思考大家也變聰明了，但是我要提醒的就是這一些風險，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這些事情你一定要去做。最後一個問題是牽涉到中央機構員工一般健康補助的部分，我看你們的標準很有意思，第一類政務人員包括中央三級機關以上的正副首長、司長或相當等級以上的主管人員及中央二級機關以上之主管人員，每年一次的健康檢查補助是1萬6,000元。你看第二類四十歲以上的公教人員及連續服務滿一年的，兩年補助一次。你再看第三類，第三類我就很有意見，對於未滿四十歲且從事有危害安全及衛生顧慮工作的公教人員，每三年補助一次，當然要服務滿一年這合理，但補助金額變成3,500元，這就比較奇怪一點，既然認為他是有危害安全跟衛生顧慮的，卻反倒三年補助一次而已。針對這樣的規定，不曉得人事長的看法是怎麼樣？這公平嗎？這樣的健檢補助制度公平嗎？人總是公務人力政策的整體協調者，你要負責整合整個福利的資源，規劃制度應該讓它更公平才對，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這部分我們還要和保訓會協調，因為健檢要點是他們訂的。剛才委員你說的是四十歲以下，但是他的工作風險比較高的，是不是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不能說那是他們訂的，公務人員的人力資源本來就是你們在主責，針對各項福利政策，制度本來就要把它弄得更公平，不是這樣子嗎？依我來看，第三類的3,500元反而要提高，而且他是有危害安全及衛生顧慮的人，結果卻是三年補助一次，第一類人員一年是1萬6,000元，而這種有危害安全及衛生疑慮的，你反而三年才一次，而且錢還更少，只有3,500元，請問你的邏輯在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，關於這項費用的支出，中央的部分應該是OK，但是地方的部分我一定要跟地方協調，因為地方這方面的人有可能會比較多，所以要去計算他們的預算……"],["莊委員瑞雄：第三類不是只有地方啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：中央和地方都有啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！所以你就不要先把它推給地方，其實中央也有啊！就我來解讀這個叫大小眼，越危險的你反而三年才補助一次，而且金額還更少。你想想看，我們還規定到四十歲，很多公務人員其實不到三十歲就進去了，在那邊看大家都有，怎麼只有年輕公務人員沒有？會當到政務人員的年紀都比較大了，年紀越大……其實健康檢查是不是應該用這樣的方式？而且那個級距差距太大，一年一次的補助1萬6,000元，三年一次的才補助3,500元，這個邏輯我想不通。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實最重要的是補助1萬6,000元的年紀差不多是在五十五歲到六十歲以上，四十歲以內的整體健康狀況坦白講會比較好，所以它的頻率及額度會比較降低，因為……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟你說，警消、夜班、基層的外勤人員，那種工作強度高、風險大的，三年一次你真的覺得夠嗎？如果是第一類的政務人員，你不要騙我了，對於很多很高階的文官，不是說不應該保障他，但是他的工作未必會比在第一線……尤其涉及到危害安全或者警消、夜班的人員，你去比較的時候到底是怎麼比？你跟我說這些我都聽不下去。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，針對你所說的高風險的部分，我們現在已經在簽院當中，針對委員……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們跟考試院應該去建議調整，或者透過院際之間的政策協調機制來進行制度上的檢討。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有的，針對委員剛才所說三年一次的部分，我們這次簽院的就是改成一年一次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在賴總統在說「健康台灣」，其實這個也都是其中的一環，尤其你們看到現行制度也知道不夠，所以你們推出健康九九的方案，我問你，今年結束以後，明年會不會繼續辦理？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會啊！會繼續辦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很好！針對我剛剛提的那個問題，我認為這反而是更危險、有健康及安全之虞的，結果三年才一次，而且金額最低，應該好好去做制度上的討論，這是一個很嚴肅的問題，不然都是高官，官等越高的人，他的身體檢查一年一次就補助1萬6,000元，結果更危險的警消、夜班的部分三年才一次，而且補助金額只有3,500元，這不合理，制度上應該去檢討，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：依先前的宣告，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時35分）"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：現在繼續開會。","接下來請葉元之委員進行詢答。葉元之委員，你知道今天都要保持70分貝以下，超過分貝太高就驅逐出會場。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-5","speakers":["莊瑞雄","吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","羅智強","王鴻薇","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":279,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00006"}}}