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\"start\": 1246.801, \"end\": 1246.941, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1246.941, \"end\": 1247.001, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 1247.001, \"end\": 1247.201, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1247.201, \"end\": 1247.221, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,249 --> 00:00:12,775\n謝謝主席是不是要請我們彭部長有請彭部長\n\n2\n00:00:17,925 --> 00:00:31,722\n林委員好部長你剛才很多人問你那你講到說對於這個廚餘的管理你們要做到即時偵測AI輔助然後這個要即時監控但我今天就要來跟你討論一下你們的這一個廚餘種族申報系統\n\n3\n00:00:36,528 --> 00:00:55,339\n你的廚餘蒸煮申報系統那作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場是不是落實了中心溫度測試90度以上持續蒸煮至少一個小時的關鍵數位工具都靠這一個嘛對不對目前是對\n\n4\n00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,965\n對但從台中這個個案你看得出來什麼從這個個案的反饋你會看得出來說這個系統的設計有問題為什麼呢它現在看起來就像是設計成一個被動的資料儲存庫而不是一個主動的風險管理工具\n\n5\n00:01:14,019 --> 00:01:41,214\n你刚才讲的好像是说你们要即时监测AI辅助但我现在要告诉你你现在的所有的过去这些年来从什么发现中国的这个猪瘟然后到开始管理监测那我们发现这些年来你所使用的一个监测的工具其实没有具备主动的风险管理的能力你这个系统的设计非常的粗糙\n\n6\n00:01:42,675 --> 00:01:45,819\n號稱市警警示的其實是被動查詢的落後設計\n\n7\n00:01:47,679 --> 00:02:14,999\n在這種狀況裡面我們都知道啊你看核心的數位的監管我們一定要能夠具備主動預警還有風險的分析能力那你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能警示警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視啊你讓大家去看這個\n\n8\n00:02:17,529 --> 00:02:43,875\n檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的\n\n9\n00:02:45,015 --> 00:03:13,030\n然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有\n\n10\n00:03:13,610 --> 00:03:33,286\n他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單\n\n11\n00:03:34,775 --> 00:03:58,025\n然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳\n\n12\n00:03:59,105 --> 00:04:24,705\n就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭啦你點頭如搗蒜\n\n13\n00:04:27,026 --> 00:04:44,235\n委員因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力\n\n14\n00:04:45,376 --> 00:05:07,121\n而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統\n\n15\n00:05:10,248 --> 00:05:38,155\n這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫\n\n16\n00:05:40,732 --> 00:06:02,108\n所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事\n\n17\n00:06:03,008 --> 00:06:22,284\n對因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的是去監測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎\n\n18\n00:06:24,045 --> 00:06:47,912\n那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號\n\n19\n00:06:49,252 --> 00:07:03,978\n第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能\n\n20\n00:07:05,018 --> 00:07:10,063\n所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種\n\n21\n00:07:27,095 --> 00:07:44,227\n現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前\n\n22\n00:07:48,015 --> 00:08:13,464\n你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片112年8月以後我知道我知道8月112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個\n\n23\n00:08:17,728 --> 00:08:39,251\n避重就輕稽查是重點但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這套系統上面不是如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好那我聽懂了稽查很重要那我們這套系統不重要嗎\n\n24\n00:08:40,447 --> 00:08:56,809\n這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料\n\n25\n00:08:58,491 --> 00:09:05,539\n這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有設備故障上船的工具有問題的時候讓他補船可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖\n\n26\n00:09:12,947 --> 00:09:16,549\n等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的不會連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示\n\n27\n00:09:33,940 --> 00:09:38,226\n所以這個系統沒有人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來看每日申報的核心意義在哪裡\n\n28\n00:09:50,282 --> 00:10:18,675\n你為什麼還要做到即時監控即時影像柏中你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理你要即時監控即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊\n\n29\n00:10:19,355 --> 00:10:27,159\n核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務\n\n30\n00:10:38,184 --> 00:10:59,614\n我是講廢棄物管理輔助是輔助工具啊我意思是說他當作我們一個輔助計察的工具我現在要問部長啦如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎如果像他講的還可以補船影像那他的真實性我們要如何確保\n\n31\n00:11:01,952 --> 00:11:21,987\n我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去那你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去申報很規矩的啦\n\n32\n00:11:22,407 --> 00:11:29,160\n那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆啦\n\n33\n00:11:35,310 --> 00:11:59,301\n我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的他怎麼抓得到\n\n34\n00:11:59,901 --> 00:12:16,617\n好他只要像手機我們拍照會有拍照的日期他傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到手機拍照手機也可以拍拍拍照片啊手機拍照片就是今天拍的啊那張照片是兩年前啊\n\n35\n00:12:18,895 --> 00:12:45,020\n這個上有政策下有對策所以我要告訴你一個系統的成功不是依賴這個這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的這個養豬場的這個檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導那\n\n36\n00:12:46,340 --> 00:13:10,718\n台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次\n\n37\n00:13:12,043 --> 00:13:35,761\n以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入\n\n38\n00:13:39,963 --> 00:13:45,108\n地方政府都沒做地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦\n\n39\n00:14:02,639 --> 00:14:15,098\n那在這種狀況裡面他就是有這種風險而我們開放了這種許可那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾掛掛地方政府\n\n40\n00:14:16,348 --> 00:14:32,655\n原種的幾個月沒有去然後去了去了更令人不解的是他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規\n\n41\n00:14:35,014 --> 00:15:01,040\n他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊\n\n42\n00:15:02,571 --> 00:15:21,001\n他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤\n\n43\n00:15:28,524 --> 00:15:32,685\n地方政府這麼亂來我們要怎麼介入我在問你部長當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個稽查當然我們有一個考核的機制啦我不是在說考核業者啦我在問你是地方政府你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的稽查是重中之重最重要第一重要\n\n44\n00:15:58,571 --> 00:16:17,563\n現在我問你當政府去看看了就說沒有發現任何違規屬於的違規啊他還說沒有發現任何違規不對就體制上就制度面就管理的層次我現在要問你如何介入如何管理\n\n45\n00:16:19,302 --> 00:16:34,600\n這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管啊\n\n46\n00:16:40,120 --> 00:17:02,514\n中央的督導角色在哪裡中央我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認啊你三個月就可以來開一遍會也沒發現他有違規啊台中市政府亂搞不負責任\n\n47\n00:17:08,077 --> 00:17:25,849\n續以為疑搪塞一下你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄沒有上傳你不知道市政府騙你說查了沒有違規你也去騙過\n\n48\n00:17:28,231 --> 00:17:43,131\n中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長你護書長不要講啦他講不出來委員第一個是說我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長\n\n49\n00:17:43,772 --> 00:18:04,463\n我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查須應須放一招須以為疑他去看跟大家說這裡面沒有發現為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報都沒處理那你未來整個\n\n50\n00:18:05,564 --> 00:18:27,646\n督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力\n\n51\n00:18:32,165 --> 00:18:49,725\n你過去沒有作為是那制度面有沒有問題安全是所以這個委員這個我們會再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商\n\n52\n00:18:50,290 --> 00:18:57,762\n你要去解決要改革啊整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的\n\n53\n00:19:04,785 --> 00:19:31,982\n這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天徵主申報狀況不佳就是異常處於再利用量超出許可量異常有徵主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳處於徵主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼\n\n54\n00:19:32,722 --> 00:19:42,687\n然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府就虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的廚餘再利用的豬場430場\n\n55\n00:20:00,817 --> 00:20:11,562\n然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就這全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變\n\n56\n00:20:14,179 --> 00:20:28,771\n包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘\n\n57\n00:20:31,593 --> 00:20:47,221\n如果你不是要永久禁掉的話出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理包括我剛才講的那一些問題你們部裡面你們部裡面的管理就需要再改進啦是是委員這個我們都注意到了謝謝謝謝委員的建議好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n249\t12775\t謝謝主席是不是要請我們彭部長有請彭部長\n17925\t31722\t林委員好部長你剛才很多人問你那你講到說對於這個廚餘的管理你們要做到即時偵測AI輔助然後這個要即時監控但我今天就要來跟你討論一下你們的這一個廚餘種族申報系統\n36528\t55339\t你的廚餘蒸煮申報系統那作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場是不是落實了中心溫度測試90度以上持續蒸煮至少一個小時的關鍵數位工具都靠這一個嘛 對不對目前是 對\n56480\t60965\t對 但從台中這個個案你看得出來什麼從這個個案的反饋 你會看得出來說這個系統的設計有問題為什麼呢 它現在看起來就像是設計成一個被動的資料儲存庫而不是一個主動的風險管理工具\n74019\t101214\t你刚才讲的好像是说你们要即时监测AI辅助但我现在要告诉你你现在的所有的过去这些年来从什么发现中国的这个猪瘟然后到开始管理监测那我们发现这些年来你所使用的一个监测的工具其实没有具备主动的风险管理的能力你这个系统的设计非常的粗糙\n102675\t105819\t號稱市警警示的其實是被動查詢的落後設計\n107679\t134999\t在這種狀況裡面我們都知道啊你看核心的數位的監管我們一定要能夠具備主動預警還有風險的分析能力那你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能警示 警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視啊你讓大家去看這個\n137529\t163875\t檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的\n165015\t193030\t然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有\n193610\t213286\t他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單\n214775\t238025\t然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳\n239105\t264705\t就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭啦你點頭如搗蒜\n267026\t284235\t委員因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同 你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力\n285376\t307121\t而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統\n310248\t338155\t這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫\n340732\t362108\t所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事\n363008\t382284\t對 因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的是去監測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎\n384045\t407912\t那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號\n409252\t423978\t第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能\n425018\t430063\t所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種\n447095\t464227\t現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前\n468015\t493464\t你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片112年8月以後我知道我知道8月112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個\n497728\t519251\t避重就輕 稽查是重點 但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這套系統上面不是 如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好 那我聽懂了 稽查很重要 那我們這套系統不重要嗎\n520447\t536809\t這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料\n538491\t545539\t這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有設備故障上船的工具有問題的時候讓他補船可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖\n552947\t556549\t等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的不會連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示\n573940\t578226\t所以這個系統沒有人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來看每日申報的核心意義在哪裡\n590282\t618675\t你為什麼還要做到即時監控 即時影像柏中你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理 你要即時監控 即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊\n619355\t627159\t核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務\n638184\t659614\t我是講廢棄物管理 輔助是輔助工具啊我意思是說他當作我們一個輔助計察的工具我現在要問部長啦 如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎 如果像他講的還可以補船影像 那他的真實性我們要如何確保\n661952\t681987\t我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去那你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去申報很規矩的啦\n682407\t689160\t那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆啦\n695310\t719301\t我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的他怎麼抓得到\n719901\t736617\t好他只要像手機我們拍照會有拍照的日期他傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到手機拍照手機也可以拍拍拍照片啊手機拍照片就是今天拍的啊那張照片是兩年前啊\n738895\t765020\t這個上有政策下有對策所以我要告訴你一個系統的成功不是依賴這個這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的這個養豬場的這個檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導那\n766340\t790718\t台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次\n792043\t815761\t以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入\n819963\t825108\t地方政府都沒做 地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入 管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦\n842639\t855098\t那在這種狀況裡面 他就是有這種風險而我們開放了這種許可 那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾掛掛 地方政府\n856348\t872655\t原種的幾個月沒有去然後去了去了更令人不解的是他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規\n875014\t901040\t他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊\n902571\t921001\t他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看 有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤\n928524\t932685\t地方政府這麼亂來 我們要怎麼介入 我在問你 部長當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個稽查當然我們有一個考核的機制啦 我不是在說考核業者啦 我在問你是地方政府 你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的稽查是重中之重 最重要 第一重要\n958571\t977563\t現在我問你 當政府去看 看了就說沒有發現任何違規 屬於的違規啊他還說沒有發現任何違規 不對 就體制上 就制度面 就管理的層次我現在要問你 如何介入 如何管理\n979302\t994600\t這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管啊\n1000120\t1022514\t中央的督導角色在哪裡中央 我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有 台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認啊你三個月就可以來開一遍會也沒發現他有違規啊台中市政府亂搞不負責任\n1028077\t1045849\t續以為疑 搪塞一下 你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄 沒有上傳你不知道 市政府騙你說 查了沒有違規你也去騙過\n1048231\t1063131\t中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長 你護書長不要講啦他講不出來 委員第一個是說 我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長\n1063772\t1084463\t我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查須應須放一招 須以為疑他去看 跟大家說這裡面沒有發現 為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報 都沒處理那你未來整個\n1085564\t1107646\t督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力\n1112165\t1129725\t你過去沒有作為 是那制度面有沒有問題 安全是所以這個委員 這個我們會再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商\n1130290\t1137762\t你要去解決要改革啊整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的\n1144785\t1171982\t這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天徵主申報狀況不佳就是異常處於再利用量超出許可量異常有徵主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳處於徵主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼\n1172722\t1182687\t然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府就虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的廚餘再利用的豬場430場\n1200817\t1211562\t然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就這全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變\n1214179\t1228771\t包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘\n1231593\t1247221\t如果你不是要永久禁掉的話 出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理 包括我剛才講的那一些問題 你們部裡面你們部裡面的管理就需要再改進啦是 是 委員這個我們都注意到了 謝謝 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席是不是要請我們彭部長有請彭部長\n林委員好部長你剛才很多人問你那你講到說對於這個廚餘的管理你們要做到即時偵測AI輔助然後這個要即時監控但我今天就要來跟你討論一下你們的這一個廚餘種族申報系統\n你的廚餘蒸煮申報系統那作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場是不是落實了中心溫度測試90度以上持續蒸煮至少一個小時的關鍵數位工具都靠這一個嘛 對不對目前是 對\n對 但從台中這個個案你看得出來什麼從這個個案的反饋 你會看得出來說這個系統的設計有問題為什麼呢 它現在看起來就像是設計成一個被動的資料儲存庫而不是一個主動的風險管理工具\n你刚才讲的好像是说你们要即时监测AI辅助但我现在要告诉你你现在的所有的过去这些年来从什么发现中国的这个猪瘟然后到开始管理监测那我们发现这些年来你所使用的一个监测的工具其实没有具备主动的风险管理的能力你这个系统的设计非常的粗糙\n號稱市警警示的其實是被動查詢的落後設計\n在這種狀況裡面我們都知道啊你看核心的數位的監管我們一定要能夠具備主動預警還有風險的分析能力那你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能警示 警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視啊你讓大家去看這個\n檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的\n然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有\n他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單\n然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳\n就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭啦你點頭如搗蒜\n委員因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同 你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力\n而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統\n這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫\n所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事\n對 因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的是去監測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎\n那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號\n第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能\n所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種\n現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前\n你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片112年8月以後我知道我知道8月112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個\n避重就輕 稽查是重點 但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這套系統上面不是 如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好 那我聽懂了 稽查很重要 那我們這套系統不重要嗎\n這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料\n這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有設備故障上船的工具有問題的時候讓他補船可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖\n等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的不會連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示\n所以這個系統沒有人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來看每日申報的核心意義在哪裡\n你為什麼還要做到即時監控 即時影像柏中你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理 你要即時監控 即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊\n核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務\n我是講廢棄物管理 輔助是輔助工具啊我意思是說他當作我們一個輔助計察的工具我現在要問部長啦 如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎 如果像他講的還可以補船影像 那他的真實性我們要如何確保\n我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去那你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去申報很規矩的啦\n那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆啦\n我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的他怎麼抓得到\n好他只要像手機我們拍照會有拍照的日期他傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到手機拍照手機也可以拍拍拍照片啊手機拍照片就是今天拍的啊那張照片是兩年前啊\n這個上有政策下有對策所以我要告訴你一個系統的成功不是依賴這個這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的這個養豬場的這個檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導那\n台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次\n以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入\n地方政府都沒做 地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入 管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦\n那在這種狀況裡面 他就是有這種風險而我們開放了這種許可 那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾掛掛 地方政府\n原種的幾個月沒有去然後去了去了更令人不解的是他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規\n他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊\n他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看 有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤\n地方政府這麼亂來 我們要怎麼介入 我在問你 部長當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個稽查當然我們有一個考核的機制啦 我不是在說考核業者啦 我在問你是地方政府 你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的稽查是重中之重 最重要 第一重要\n現在我問你 當政府去看 看了就說沒有發現任何違規 屬於的違規啊他還說沒有發現任何違規 不對 就體制上 就制度面 就管理的層次我現在要問你 如何介入 如何管理\n這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管啊\n中央的督導角色在哪裡中央 我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有 台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認啊你三個月就可以來開一遍會也沒發現他有違規啊台中市政府亂搞不負責任\n續以為疑 搪塞一下 你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄 沒有上傳你不知道 市政府騙你說 查了沒有違規你也去騙過\n中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長 你護書長不要講啦他講不出來 委員第一個是說 我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長\n我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查須應須放一招 須以為疑他去看 跟大家說這裡面沒有發現 為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報 都沒處理那你未來整個\n督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力\n你過去沒有作為 是那制度面有沒有問題 安全是所以這個委員 這個我們會再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商\n你要去解決要改革啊整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的\n這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天徵主申報狀況不佳就是異常處於再利用量超出許可量異常有徵主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳處於徵主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼\n然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府就虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的廚餘再利用的豬場430場\n然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就這全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變\n包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘\n如果你不是要永久禁掉的話 出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理 包括我剛才講的那一些問題 你們部裡面你們部裡面的管理就需要再改進啦是 是 委員這個我們都注意到了 謝謝 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.249 --> 00:12.775\n謝謝主席是不是要請我們彭部長有請彭部長\n\n00:17.925 --> 00:31.722\n林委員好部長你剛才很多人問你那你講到說對於這個廚餘的管理你們要做到即時偵測AI輔助然後這個要即時監控但我今天就要來跟你討論一下你們的這一個廚餘種族申報系統\n\n00:36.528 --> 00:55.339\n你的廚餘蒸煮申報系統那作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場是不是落實了中心溫度測試90度以上持續蒸煮至少一個小時的關鍵數位工具都靠這一個嘛對不對目前是對\n\n00:56.480 --> 01:00.965\n對但從台中這個個案你看得出來什麼從這個個案的反饋你會看得出來說這個系統的設計有問題為什麼呢它現在看起來就像是設計成一個被動的資料儲存庫而不是一個主動的風險管理工具\n\n01:14.019 --> 01:41.214\n你刚才讲的好像是说你们要即时监测AI辅助但我现在要告诉你你现在的所有的过去这些年来从什么发现中国的这个猪瘟然后到开始管理监测那我们发现这些年来你所使用的一个监测的工具其实没有具备主动的风险管理的能力你这个系统的设计非常的粗糙\n\n01:42.675 --> 01:45.819\n號稱市警警示的其實是被動查詢的落後設計\n\n01:47.679 --> 02:14.999\n在這種狀況裡面我們都知道啊你看核心的數位的監管我們一定要能夠具備主動預警還有風險的分析能力那你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能警示警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視啊你讓大家去看這個\n\n02:17.529 --> 02:43.875\n檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的\n\n02:45.015 --> 03:13.030\n然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有\n\n03:13.610 --> 03:33.286\n他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單\n\n03:34.775 --> 03:58.025\n然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳\n\n03:59.105 --> 04:24.705\n就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭啦你點頭如搗蒜\n\n04:27.026 --> 04:44.235\n委員因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力\n\n04:45.376 --> 05:07.121\n而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統\n\n05:10.248 --> 05:38.155\n這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫\n\n05:40.732 --> 06:02.108\n所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事\n\n06:03.008 --> 06:22.284\n對因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的是去監測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎\n\n06:24.045 --> 06:47.912\n那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號\n\n06:49.252 --> 07:03.978\n第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能\n\n07:05.018 --> 07:10.063\n所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種\n\n07:27.095 --> 07:44.227\n現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前\n\n07:48.015 --> 08:13.464\n你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片112年8月以後我知道我知道8月112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個\n\n08:17.728 --> 08:39.251\n避重就輕稽查是重點但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這套系統上面不是如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好那我聽懂了稽查很重要那我們這套系統不重要嗎\n\n08:40.447 --> 08:56.809\n這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料\n\n08:58.491 --> 09:05.539\n這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有設備故障上船的工具有問題的時候讓他補船可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖\n\n09:12.947 --> 09:16.549\n等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的不會連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示\n\n09:33.940 --> 09:38.226\n所以這個系統沒有人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來看每日申報的核心意義在哪裡\n\n09:50.282 --> 10:18.675\n你為什麼還要做到即時監控即時影像柏中你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理你要即時監控即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊\n\n10:19.355 --> 10:27.159\n核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務\n\n10:38.184 --> 10:59.614\n我是講廢棄物管理輔助是輔助工具啊我意思是說他當作我們一個輔助計察的工具我現在要問部長啦如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎如果像他講的還可以補船影像那他的真實性我們要如何確保\n\n11:01.952 --> 11:21.987\n我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去那你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去申報很規矩的啦\n\n11:22.407 --> 11:29.160\n那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆啦\n\n11:35.310 --> 11:59.301\n我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的他怎麼抓得到\n\n11:59.901 --> 12:16.617\n好他只要像手機我們拍照會有拍照的日期他傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到手機拍照手機也可以拍拍拍照片啊手機拍照片就是今天拍的啊那張照片是兩年前啊\n\n12:18.895 --> 12:45.020\n這個上有政策下有對策所以我要告訴你一個系統的成功不是依賴這個這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的這個養豬場的這個檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導那\n\n12:46.340 --> 13:10.718\n台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次\n\n13:12.043 --> 13:35.761\n以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入\n\n13:39.963 --> 13:45.108\n地方政府都沒做地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦\n\n14:02.639 --> 14:15.098\n那在這種狀況裡面他就是有這種風險而我們開放了這種許可那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾掛掛地方政府\n\n14:16.348 --> 14:32.655\n原種的幾個月沒有去然後去了去了更令人不解的是他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規\n\n14:35.014 --> 15:01.040\n他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊\n\n15:02.571 --> 15:21.001\n他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤\n\n15:28.524 --> 15:32.685\n地方政府這麼亂來我們要怎麼介入我在問你部長當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個稽查當然我們有一個考核的機制啦我不是在說考核業者啦我在問你是地方政府你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的稽查是重中之重最重要第一重要\n\n15:58.571 --> 16:17.563\n現在我問你當政府去看看了就說沒有發現任何違規屬於的違規啊他還說沒有發現任何違規不對就體制上就制度面就管理的層次我現在要問你如何介入如何管理\n\n16:19.302 --> 16:34.600\n這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管啊\n\n16:40.120 --> 17:02.514\n中央的督導角色在哪裡中央我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認啊你三個月就可以來開一遍會也沒發現他有違規啊台中市政府亂搞不負責任\n\n17:08.077 --> 17:25.849\n續以為疑搪塞一下你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄沒有上傳你不知道市政府騙你說查了沒有違規你也去騙過\n\n17:28.231 --> 17:43.131\n中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長你護書長不要講啦他講不出來委員第一個是說我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長\n\n17:43.772 --> 18:04.463\n我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查須應須放一招須以為疑他去看跟大家說這裡面沒有發現為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報都沒處理那你未來整個\n\n18:05.564 --> 18:27.646\n督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力\n\n18:32.165 --> 18:49.725\n你過去沒有作為是那制度面有沒有問題安全是所以這個委員這個我們會再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商\n\n18:50.290 --> 18:57.762\n你要去解決要改革啊整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的\n\n19:04.785 --> 19:31.982\n這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天徵主申報狀況不佳就是異常處於再利用量超出許可量異常有徵主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳處於徵主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼\n\n19:32.722 --> 19:42.687\n然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府就虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的廚餘再利用的豬場430場\n\n20:00.817 --> 20:11.562\n然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就這全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變\n\n20:14.179 --> 20:28.771\n包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘\n\n20:31.593 --> 20:47.221\n如果你不是要永久禁掉的話出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理包括我剛才講的那一些問題你們部裡面你們部裡面的管理就需要再改進啦是是委員這個我們都注意到了謝謝謝謝委員的建議好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.249,"end":12.775,"text":"謝謝主席是不是要請我們彭部長有請彭部長"},{"start":17.925,"end":31.722,"text":"林委員好部長你剛才很多人問你那你講到說對於這個廚餘的管理你們要做到即時偵測AI輔助然後這個要即時監控但我今天就要來跟你討論一下你們的這一個廚餘種族申報系統"},{"start":36.528,"end":55.339,"text":"你的廚餘蒸煮申報系統那作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場是不是落實了中心溫度測試90度以上持續蒸煮至少一個小時的關鍵數位工具都靠這一個嘛 對不對目前是 對"},{"start":56.48,"end":60.965,"text":"對 但從台中這個個案你看得出來什麼從這個個案的反饋 你會看得出來說這個系統的設計有問題為什麼呢 它現在看起來就像是設計成一個被動的資料儲存庫而不是一個主動的風險管理工具"},{"start":74.019,"end":101.214,"text":"你刚才讲的好像是说你们要即时监测AI辅助但我现在要告诉你你现在的所有的过去这些年来从什么发现中国的这个猪瘟然后到开始管理监测那我们发现这些年来你所使用的一个监测的工具其实没有具备主动的风险管理的能力你这个系统的设计非常的粗糙"},{"start":102.675,"end":105.819,"text":"號稱市警警示的其實是被動查詢的落後設計"},{"start":107.679,"end":134.999,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們都知道啊你看核心的數位的監管我們一定要能夠具備主動預警還有風險的分析能力那你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能警示 警示功能看起來好像有警示功能但是呢聲稱這個有警示功能但使用者檢視啊你讓大家去看這個"},{"start":137.529,"end":163.875,"text":"檢視當日未上傳還有昨日未上傳的養豬場資料你這個功能只有兩個今天沒有上傳的還有昨天沒有上傳的仔細看一下內容這完全不是現代數位治理應用的主動預警機制登錄完成以後系統將直接導向警示視窗功能在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳還有昨天沒有上傳的"},{"start":165.015,"end":193.03,"text":"然後這個他不會偵測異常如果你偵測到今天昨天連續好多天都沒有上傳了那你應該如果有預警的功能主動的偵測異常你應該要主動發電子郵件啊簡訊啊或其他方式通知這個沒有上傳的業主通知地方政府然後通知我們自己的中央然後他要發出警報可是事實上呢他沒有"},{"start":193.61,"end":213.286,"text":"他需要是地方政府自己主動的登入才能看到這個而且只能看到昨天和今天的他不會記錄他已經連續幾天了通通都沒有第二個你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力他顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單"},{"start":214.775,"end":238.025,"text":"然後呢像台中這一個案場的這個個案他好幾個月都沒有登入了他的系統本身不會自動標示也不會升級他的風險管理通通沒有作用他只是一個資料庫這個業者連續30天沒有上傳他還是只是顯示他昨天沒有上傳今天沒有上傳"},{"start":239.105,"end":264.705,"text":"就是這樣子這個代表這個系統的後台完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析還有風險累計的邏輯通通都沒有而這樣被動的記錄每一天狀態的流水帳他沒有辦法有風險管理的能力那我現在要問你部長你覺得這套系統我想你一直點頭啦你點頭如搗蒜"},{"start":267.026,"end":284.235,"text":"委員因為我有去看這個系統的確你說的問題都是你都認同 你都承認嘛那這套系統有沒有發揮預警的作用那怎麼會設計一個如此的被動缺乏數據分析能力沒有預警能力"},{"start":285.376,"end":307.121,"text":"而我們這些年來竟然靠著這一種只有資料庫儲存系統的不是系統的系統來承擔起防堵國安及疫病的重責大任呢你自己都承認了可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統"},{"start":310.248,"end":338.155,"text":"這樣說起來你現在承認他的問題你當然是新任的部長你當然覺得說你承認可是對國人來講老實說發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪過去我們仰賴地方政府結果地方政府是這副德性過去我們仰賴這一套系統以為他可以管理好廚餘結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫"},{"start":340.732,"end":362.108,"text":"所以我們真的很失望部長報告委員其實這個問題我們在今年的時候就開始啟動已經嘗試就是說用即時監控包含溫度計在這個烹煮的這個爐的附近還有中心這個四個點然後甚至加上監視器我們是希望來測試我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事"},{"start":363.008,"end":382.284,"text":"對 因為委員你說的是其實是一個人工的被動的是去監測我講的問題是他沒有辦法主動預警而且他的整個機制的系統的設計其實是有問題的沒有辦法管理的一個沒有辦法管理的管理竟然是來承擔一個防堵國安及疫病的重責大任的這樣子行嗎"},{"start":384.045,"end":407.912,"text":"那你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的你剛才回答我的是我第二個接下來要問的問題在這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性剛才已經講這個問題這麼嚴重了那我們再講這套系統的設計讓人家對於業者輸入的資料的可信度還要打上問號"},{"start":409.252,"end":423.978,"text":"第一個形同虛設的照片驗證機制根據你們的操作手冊系統是直到112年的8月才增加了要上傳照片確認的這一個功能"},{"start":425.018,"end":430.063,"text":"所以用來阻擋這個拍攝時間超過24小時的照片112年的8月那顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間業者都可以輕易的用舊照片蒙混過關所以在這種"},{"start":447.095,"end":464.227,"text":"現在你說這個功能上線以前我們以前看到業者上傳了數百張照片是不是同一張照片是不是舊照片然後這些申報的數據真實性如何事實上我們這個系統沒有在把關的112年8月以前"},{"start":468.015,"end":493.464,"text":"你知道這個問題嗎委員這個我有看到就是說的確有些業者他的照片的日期比較久但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片112年8月以後我知道我知道8月112年8月以後來我想這個系統只是作為一個輔助的工具其實真正的重點還是要落實稽查所以我們現在講這個你講這個"},{"start":497.728,"end":519.251,"text":"避重就輕 稽查是重點 但是稽查也要建立在他有沒有申報這套系統上面不是 如果他沒有申報是增加我們的稽查頻率在我們的稽查計畫裡面決定好 那我聽懂了 稽查很重要 那我們這套系統不重要嗎"},{"start":520.447,"end":536.809,"text":"這套系統也很重要我們大開方便的補傳功能你這套系統到現在還可以開一個方便的大門叫做補傳功能你允許業者因為不同原因可以補傳前幾天的資料"},{"start":538.491,"end":545.539,"text":"這種我們可以理解說你這麼的友善讓我們的業者可以有設備故障上船的工具有問題的時候讓他補船可是你會不會太過於寬鬆會不會讓部分的業者心存僥倖"},{"start":552.947,"end":556.549,"text":"等到說被查到被稽查的時候等到被提醒之後才來補傳資料那事實上是業者絕對可以僥倖的因為你們不會發現我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳和今天沒有上傳的不會連系統沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳也不會有警示"},{"start":573.94,"end":578.226,"text":"所以這個系統沒有人在看你現在可以說我系統輔助的要靠地方政府你如果這樣說我不會說你如果這樣說我不會說但是我要說保證你來看每日申報的核心意義在哪裡"},{"start":590.282,"end":618.675,"text":"你為什麼還要做到即時監控 即時影像柏中你剛才一直這樣說你要AI管理 你要即時監控 即時影像而你的這個你是副署長他說這個輔助而已還是要靠地方政府地方政府的責任最重我敢說但是我們對於這個廚餘的回收再利用是我們主要的業務啊"},{"start":619.355,"end":627.159,"text":"核心業務耶整個回收利用我們的主管你的主管部門講這句話說我們輔助就養豬產業我們是輔助但是就整個廢棄物或者是廚餘回收再利用是我們的核心業務"},{"start":638.184,"end":659.614,"text":"我是講廢棄物管理 輔助是輔助工具啊我意思是說他當作我們一個輔助計察的工具我現在要問部長啦 如果他這樣講說可以補船對業者非常友善那我們即使監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎 如果像他講的還可以補船影像 那他的真實性我們要如何確保"},{"start":661.952,"end":681.987,"text":"我們現在的系統是可以知道他的照片是什麼日期PO上去的像恰幸這一家我們看到他還用到幾年前的照片PO上去那你是人工稽查的啊我必須說委員大概目前看90%的廠商他大概都是按規定去申報很規矩的啦"},{"start":682.407,"end":689.16,"text":"那不好的其實是透過地方政府每個月我們要他們加強這個計劃我現在要跟你講說你這個補船功能會不會太過於寬鬆啦"},{"start":695.31,"end":719.301,"text":"我是覺得如果有補傳這個雖然我們可以抓得到照片的日期但是其實補傳他照片的日期什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎這抓得出來確定喔對我們的系統我昨天有看過那你改天抓尾我們去考察一下看一下這個系統怎麼可以抓到這個照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的他怎麼抓得到"},{"start":719.901,"end":736.617,"text":"好他只要像手機我們拍照會有拍照的日期他傳上來之後我們之後可以從系統裡面看到手機拍照手機也可以拍拍拍照片啊手機拍照片就是今天拍的啊那張照片是兩年前啊"},{"start":738.895,"end":765.02,"text":"這個上有政策下有對策所以我要告訴你一個系統的成功不是依賴這個這個設計而已還要取決於後端的執法和督導而台中這個個案我們看清楚了看得到說根據環境部你的這個養豬場的這個檢核的規定如果沒有每天上傳珍珠畫面地方政府應該每個月都要進行查核輔導那"},{"start":766.34,"end":790.718,"text":"台中市政府的實際作為是這樣子第一個查核你已經連續幾個月沒有上船了照道理說地方政府每個月都要進行查核輔導那地方的環保局台中市政府的作為是第一個稽查頻率遠低於中央規範幾個月沒有去了結果他去了幾次實地查訪沒有上船照片他去實地查訪了幾次"},{"start":792.043,"end":815.761,"text":"以114年來講這個養豬場從1月到8月上船的頻率都沒有達到每天上船那台中市去了兩次兩次5月和7月都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核這是地方人力的嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢地方政府沒有做我們中央要怎麼介入"},{"start":819.963,"end":825.108,"text":"地方政府都沒做 地方政府沒及格我們中央要怎麼介入 管理這個許可他養豬是我們許可的而他要承擔著許可是地方許可的我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦"},{"start":842.639,"end":855.098,"text":"那在這種狀況裡面 他就是有這種風險而我們開放了這種許可 那就要把風險給管理好而地方政府這樣挾掛掛 地方政府"},{"start":856.348,"end":872.655,"text":"原種的幾個月沒有去然後去了去了更令人不解的是他這兩次的稽查都回報什麼沒有發現違規地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規"},{"start":875.014,"end":901.04,"text":"他在7月8月幾乎零申報那他為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論稽查的人員到現場查好了哪些項目是不是還是形式上的訪問還是怎麼樣沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄查閱現場增組紀錄或設備運作的狀況這一種等於有查等於沒有查的稽查品質啊"},{"start":902.571,"end":921.001,"text":"他要承擔起全國這種豬瘟的風險的管理的責任欸啊他是這樣後悔財啊你上級怎麼處理我們介入的機制到底是什麼沒去看 有去看說這材料沒問題沒有發現違規啊這是什麼狀況啊蛤"},{"start":928.524,"end":932.685,"text":"地方政府這麼亂來 我們要怎麼介入 我在問你 部長當然我們對於這個養豬場的一個稽查當然我們有一個考核的機制啦 我不是在說考核業者啦 我在問你是地方政府 你說整個廚餘的管理地方政府的稽查是重中之重 最重要 第一重要"},{"start":958.571,"end":977.563,"text":"現在我問你 當政府去看 看了就說沒有發現任何違規 屬於的違規啊他還說沒有發現任何違規 不對 就體制上 就制度面 就管理的層次我現在要問你 如何介入 如何管理"},{"start":979.302,"end":994.6,"text":"這姿勢體大一個豬瘟如果整個防線失守經濟的損失恐達數千億耶而你們我在問你制度面的管理怎麼管台中市政府這麼離譜我們要怎麼管啊"},{"start":1000.12,"end":1022.514,"text":"中央的督導角色在哪裡中央 我想我們三個中心每一季都會邀請各個縣市來召開稽查的會議那你的意思是說你都沒有 台中市政府這麼離譜他說都沒有發現違規你就給他裁認啊你三個月就可以來開一遍會也沒發現他有違規啊台中市政府亂搞不負責任"},{"start":1028.077,"end":1045.849,"text":"續以為疑 搪塞一下 你也沒發現啊你中央掌握了全國的數據你最清楚它有沒有風險這個夾子已經過了個月沒有生主的紀錄 沒有上傳你不知道 市政府騙你說 查了沒有違規你也去騙過"},{"start":1048.231,"end":1063.131,"text":"中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼啦部長 你護書長不要講啦他講不出來 委員第一個是說 我認為是說我自己看完那個系統它是一個月一個月這個對於實際上發生的我現在不再講系統了部長"},{"start":1063.772,"end":1084.463,"text":"我現在也講的是地方政府的稽查須應須放一招 須以為疑他去看 跟大家說這裡面沒有發現 為失然後倒回來就交差啊所以說你的系統顯示他就每天都沒報 都沒處理那你未來整個"},{"start":1085.564,"end":1107.646,"text":"督導的程序你的介入的管理的制度面難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎報告委員當然有所以這個部分我們除了剛剛講到系統我就不說了第一個你沒有掌握高風險的個案第二個你對地方政府的獨職你沒有管理和介入督導的這個能力"},{"start":1112.165,"end":1129.725,"text":"你過去沒有作為 是那制度面有沒有問題 安全是所以這個委員 這個我們會再來檢討改進因為這個的確我們跟環保局過去一直都是夥伴關係但是如果地方他沒有辦法處理的好那我們如何去做一些該有的一個處置這個我們會再來研商"},{"start":1130.29,"end":1137.762,"text":"你要去解決要改革啊整個出於徵主申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常的狀況在77家養豬戶113年在77家養豬戶的"},{"start":1144.785,"end":1171.982,"text":"這個申報當中發現了82起異常你們異常就是說申報日數超過5天徵主申報狀況不佳就是異常處於再利用量超出許可量異常有徵主的日數卻沒有在市費系統申報相關廢棄物異常市費系統有記錄卻未上傳處於徵主記錄你們這些異常事件後續的標準處理程序是什麼"},{"start":1172.722,"end":1182.687,"text":"然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地的稽查稽查的結果如何然後有沒有發現違規有沒有處分有沒有追蹤記錄我想從你剛才那個回答我們看得出來都沒有啦地方政府就虛晃一招繼續包庇不願意真正的管理中央也沒有在處理所以我現在全台的廚餘再利用的豬場430場"},{"start":1200.817,"end":1211.562,"text":"然後禁廚宇現在是臨時的緊急的應變還是要整個未來就這全禁掉保定你要全禁掉還是臨時的緊急應變"},{"start":1214.179,"end":1228.771,"text":"包委員現在只是這個緊急應變那對於未來的部分我們會再跟農業部來討論到底要不要永久性的禁止廚餘那如果是的話我們現在問你就是說你們如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘"},{"start":1231.593,"end":1247.221,"text":"如果你不是要永久禁掉的話 出於養豬政策要怎麼精進管理 包括我剛才講的那一些問題 你們部裡面你們部裡面的管理就需要再改進啦是 是 委員這個我們都注意到了 謝謝 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":725,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時46分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，剛才很多人問你，你一直強調對於廚餘的管理，你們要做到即時偵測、AI輔助，要即時監控，但我今天就要來跟你討論一下，你們的廚餘蒸煮申報系統，作為監控全國現有430家的廚餘養豬場，是不是落實了中心溫度設置90度以上，持續蒸煮至少1個小時的關鍵數位工具，都靠這一個嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，目前是。"],["林委員淑芬：但從臺中這個個案看得出什麼？從這個個案的反饋看得出來這個系統的設計有問題，為什麼？它現在看起來就像是設計成被動的資料儲存庫，而不是一個主動的風險管理工具。你剛才講的好像是你們要即時監測、AI輔助，但我現在要告訴你，你過去這些年來，從發現中國的豬瘟開始管理、監測，我們發現這些年來，你所使用的監測工具，其實沒有具備主動風險管理的能力，你們系統設計非常地粗糙，號稱示警警示的，其實是被動查詢的落後設計。在這種狀況裡面，核心數位的監管，我們一定要能夠具備主動預警，還有風險的分析能力，你的操作手冊上面有列這種警示功能，看起來好像有警示功能，但是你讓大家去看「當日未上傳」及「昨日未上傳」的養豬場資料，你這個功能只有兩個，今天沒有上傳的及昨天沒有上傳的，仔細看一下內容，這完全不是現代數位治理應有的主動預警機制，登錄完成以後，系統將直接導向警示視窗功能，在這個頁面只能看到今天沒有上傳的，還有昨天沒有上傳的，然後它不會偵測異常。如果有預警的功能，主動偵測異常，你偵測到今天、昨天，連續好多天都沒有上傳，就應該要主動發電子郵件、簡訊或其他方式，通知沒有上傳的業主、通知地方政府，'通知中央，然後它要發出警報。可是事實上它沒有，它需要地方政府自己主動的登錄才能看到，而且只能看到昨天和今天的，它不會紀錄已經連續幾天的，通通都沒有。","第二個，你這個系統缺乏歷史追蹤和風險分析的能力，它顯示昨天和今天沒有上傳的名單，像臺中這一個案場的個案，他好幾個月都沒有登錄了，它的系統本身不會自動標示，也不會升級它的風險管理，通通沒有作用，它只是一個資料庫，這個業者連續30天沒有上傳，它還是只是顯示昨天沒有上傳、今天沒有上傳，就是這樣子。代表這個系統的後臺完全沒有建立基於時間序列的數據分析及風險累計的邏輯，通通都沒有，而這樣被動紀錄每一天狀態的流水帳，它沒有辦法有風險管理的能力。那我現在要問你，部長，你覺得這套系統，你一直點頭、你點頭如搗蒜……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為我有去看這個系統，你說的問題的確都是……"],["林委員淑芬：你都認同、你都承認嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：我都認同，對、對。"],["林委員淑芬：這套系統沒有發揮預警的作用，怎麼會設計一個如此被動、缺乏數據分析能力、沒有預警能力的系統，而我們這些年來竟然還靠著這種只有資料庫儲存功能、不是系統的系統承擔起防堵國安級疫病的重責大任呢？你自己都承認了，可是這些年我們仰賴的竟然是這一套系統。這樣講起來，雖然你現在承認它的問題，因為你是新任部長，當然覺得你可以承認，可是對國人來講，老實說，發現這個問題讓我們情何以堪！過去我們仰賴地方政府，結果地方政府是這副德行；過去我們仰賴這一套系統、以為它可以管理好廚餘，結果這個系統和制度竟然只是資料輸入檔案紀錄庫，所以我們真的很失望啦！部長！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實針對這個問題，我們在今年就開始啟動因應，已經嘗試用即時監控、包含溫度計，設置在烹煮爐附近以及中心等4個點，甚至加上監視器，希望測試這樣到底可不可以……"],["林委員淑芬：我講的問題跟你講的問題是兩件事欸！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你說的事其實是人工的、被動的監測……"],["林委員淑芬：我講的問題是它沒有辦法主動預警，而且整個機制、系統的設計其實是有問題的、沒有辦法管理的，一個沒有辦法管理的系統竟然要承擔防堵國安級疫病的重責大任，這樣行嗎？而你剛才回答我的跟我講的問題是不相關的。","你剛才回答的是我的第二個、接下來要問的問題：這個監管系統的有效性取決於資料的真實性。剛才已經講過這個問題這麼嚴重了，我還要再講，這套系統的設計也讓人家對於業者輸入資料的可信度打上問號，第一個是形同虛設的照片驗證機制。根據你們的操作手冊，系統是直到112年8月才增加了要上傳照片確認這個功能，阻擋拍攝時間超過24小時的照片。由於112年8月才增加，顯然在112年8月以前長達數年的時間，業者都可以輕易地用舊照片蒙混過關。所以在這個功能上線以前，我們所看到業者上傳的數百張照片是不是同一張照片、是不是舊照片，以及這些申報數據真實性如何，事實上這個系統在112年8月以前是沒有在把關的。你知道這個問題嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我有看到，的確有些業者的照片日期比較舊，但是我們的系統現在是可以抓到照片……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道，是在112年8月以後。"],["彭部長啓明：我請副署長回答。"],["林副署長左祥：報告委員，我想這個系統只是作為輔助工具，真正的重點還是要落實稽查，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在講這個是避重就輕，稽查是重點，但是稽查也要建立在有沒有申報在這套系統上。"],["林副署長左祥：不，如果它沒有申報，會增加我們的稽查頻率，我們的稽查計畫裡面就規定……"],["林委員淑芬：OK，那我聽懂了，稽查很重要，那這套系統不重要嗎？"],["林副署長左祥：這套系統也很重要。"],["林委員淑芬：你們大開方便的補傳功能！到現在，這套系統還幫業者開一道方便的大門，叫做「補傳功能」，允許業者因為不同原因補傳前幾天的資料。對於這種功能，我們可以理解為你們這麼友善，可以在業者設備故障、上傳工具有問題時讓他補傳，可是會不會太過寬鬆？"],["林副署長左祥：不會……"],["林委員淑芬：會不會讓部分業者心存僥倖，等被查到、被稽查的時候、等到被提醒之後才補傳資料？那事實上業者絕對可以心存僥倖的，因為你們不會發現。"],["林副署長左祥：不！會發現。"],["林委員淑芬：我在第一個議題上就告訴你們了，你們只會看到昨天沒有上傳、今天沒有上傳的，但連系統也沒有辦法抓到連續一個月沒上傳者、又不會有警示，所以這個系統沒人看。你現在可以說系統是輔助、要靠地方政府，你如果只這樣講，我沒話說。但是我要跟你說……部長，你來講講看，每日申報的核心意義在哪裡？為什麼還要做到即時監控、即時影像？部長，你剛剛一直這樣講，要AI管理、要即時監控、即時影像，你的副署長卻說這是輔助而已，還是要靠地方政府、地方政府的責任最重。我敢說，廚餘的回收再利用是你們的主要業務啊！是核心業務欸！整個回收、利用是你們主管的，而你的主管部門卻講這句話：「我們輔助」。就養豬產業，你們是輔助，但是整個廢棄物或廚餘回收再利用則是你們的核心業務！我是講廢棄物管理。"],["林副署長左祥：所謂的輔助是指輔助工具啊！我的意思是把它當作我們的輔助稽查工具。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問部長啦！如果照他這樣講，可以補傳、對業者非常友善，那即時監控功能還需要這麼嚴苛嗎？如果照他講的，還可以補傳影像，那真實性要如何確保？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在的系統可以知道照片是什麼日期po上去的，像是洽興這一家，我們看到他們還用到幾年前的照片po上去。委員，我的確也看到這個問題，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！而你們是人工稽查啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我必須說，目前來看，大概百分之九十的廠商都是按規定申報、很規矩的啦！至於不好的，其實要透過地方政府，我們每個月都要求他們加強稽查力度。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要跟你講的是這個補傳功能會不會過於寬鬆啦！"],["彭部長啓明：我是覺得如果是補傳，雖然我們抓得到照片的日期，但是其實運用……"],["林委員淑芬：補傳照片的日期？什麼時候拍的你抓得出來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：抓得出來。"],["林委員淑芬：確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們的系統我昨天特別看過。"],["林委員淑芬：好，召委，那我們改天去考察一下，看看這個系統怎麼可以抓到這張照片到底是今天拍的還是一年前拍的，看看他們怎麼抓得到。"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["林副署長左祥：手機拍照會有拍照日期，業者傳上來之後，我們就可以從系統裡看到業者拍照的日期。"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係啦！手機也可以拍照片啊！手機要是拍照片就是今天拍的，但那張照片可能是兩年前的啊！上有政策，下有對策，所以我要告訴你有這個問題。","一個系統的成功不是依賴設計而已，還取決於後端的執法和督導，從臺中這起個案，我們可以清楚地看到。根據環境部的養豬場檢核規定，如果沒有每天上傳蒸煮畫面，地方政府應每個月都查核輔導。但臺中市政府的實際作為是這樣：第一，關於查核，業者已經連續幾個月沒有上傳了，照道理來說，地方政府每個月都要查核輔導，但地方環保局──臺中市政府的作為，第一是稽查頻率遠低於中央規範，業者幾個月沒有上傳，結果他們去了幾次實地查訪？業者沒有上傳照片，他們實際查訪了幾次？"],["林副署長左祥：以114年來講，該養豬場從1月到8月上傳的頻率都沒有達到每天上傳，而臺中市去了兩次。"],["林委員淑芬：兩次，5月和7月？"],["林副署長左祥：對。"],["林委員淑芬：都沒有達到中央要求的每月查核。這是因為地方人力嚴重不足還是制度性的輕忽怠慢？地方政府沒有做，我們中央要怎麼介入？地方政府沒有做，是地方政府不及格，中央要怎麼介入管理？許可他養豬是我們許可的，而他要承擔的……"],["林副署長左祥：許可是地方許可的。"],["林委員淑芬：我們允許廚餘可以養豬啦！在這種狀況下，就是有這樣的風險，而我們開放了這種許可，就要把風險管理好，然而地方政府置身事外，嚴重的是幾個月都沒有去稽查，更令人不解的是，去了兩次，兩次稽查的回報是什麼？沒有發現違規；地方政府的回報是這兩次稽查都沒有發現違規，他在7月、8月幾乎是零申報，為什麼7月的稽查還可以做出沒有發現違規的這個結論？稽查人員到現場查核了哪些項目，是不是只是形式上的訪問，而沒有實際比對系統申報紀錄、查閱現場蒸煮紀錄或設備運作的狀況？這一種有查等於沒查的稽查品質，他要承擔起全國豬瘟風險的管理責任，卻是這樣亂查，你上級要怎麼處理？中央介入的機制到底是什麼？有沒去看的；有去看了以後說沒問題、沒發現違規，這是什麼狀況啊！地方政府這麼亂來，我們要怎麼介入？部長，我在問你啊！"],["林副署長左祥：對於養豬場的稽查，當然我們有一個考核機制，就是……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在說考核業者，我問的是地方政府，整個廚餘的管理，地方政府的稽查是重中之重，是最重要的、第一重要的，現在地方政府去看了，然後說沒有發現任何違規，但事實上就違規啊！他還說沒有發現任何違規，部長，就體制上、制度面上、管理層次上，我現在問你，要如何介入、如何管理？這茲事體大，如果整個豬瘟的防線失守，經濟的損失恐達數千億，臺中市政府這麼離譜，請問你，制度面上我們要怎麼管理？中央督導的角色在哪裡？"],["林副署長左祥：我們三個中心每一季都會邀集各縣市召開稽查會議，在稽查會議……"],["林委員淑芬：你的意思是說臺中市政府這麼離譜，他說都沒有發現違規，你們就都採認？你們三個月邀集他們來開一次會，也沒發現他有違規啊！臺中市政府亂搞，不負責任、虛與委蛇、搪塞一下，你也沒發現啊！中央掌握了全國的數據，你最清楚他有沒有風險，這個業者已經好幾個月沒有上傳蒸煮紀錄，你不知道，而市政府騙你說查了沒有違規，你也被騙了，請問中央標準的督導程序到底是什麼？部長，你的副署長就不要再說了，他說不出來啦！"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，第一個，我自己看過那個系統，它是一個月、一個月的，這對於實際上發生的……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不是在講系統，部長，我現在講的是地方政府的稽查虛晃一招、虛與委蛇，他去看了，還跟大家說沒有發現違失，然後回來就交差了事，事實上你的系統顯示他每天都沒有申報、沒有處理，未來你們整個督導的程序、介入的管理制度，難道都沒有需要檢討的地方嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，當然有，除了剛才講到的系統部分，我就不說了……"],["林委員淑芬：第一個，你沒有掌握高風險個案；第二個，對於地方政府的瀆職，你沒有管理和介入督導的能力，你過去沒有作為，那制度面上有沒有問題和缺失？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們會再來檢討改進，我們過去跟環保局一直都是夥伴關係，但如果地方沒有辦法處理好，我們應該如何去做一些該有的處置，這個我們會再來研商。"],["林委員淑芬：你要去解決、要改革，整個廚餘蒸煮申報系統存在著大量的疑似異常狀況，113年在77家養豬戶的申報當中，發現了82起異常，你們的異常可能是申報日數超過5天、蒸煮申報狀況不佳、廚餘再利用量超出許可量、有蒸煮日數卻沒有在事廢系統申報相關廢棄物、事廢系統有紀錄卻未上傳廚餘蒸煮紀錄等，這些異常事件的後續標準處理程序是什麼？然後地方政府是不是真正的完成了實地稽查、稽查結果如何、有沒有發現違規、有沒有處分、有沒有追蹤紀錄等，從你剛才的回答裡，我們看得出來都沒有追蹤，地方政府就是虛晃一招，繼續包庇，不願意真正管理，而中央也沒有在處理，所以針對全臺廚餘再利用的430場豬場，現在禁廚餘是臨時緊急應變措施，還是未來會整個禁掉？部長，你是要全面禁掉，還是臨時的緊急應變？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在只是緊急應變，未來我們會再跟農業部討論。"],["林委員淑芬：好，到底要不要永久性禁止廚餘？如果要的話，那我現在就問你，你們要如何消化每年數十萬噸轉出的熟廚餘？又如果不是要永久禁掉，那麼廚餘養豬政策要怎麼精進管理，包括我剛才講的那一些問題？我想部裡面的管理就需要再改革、改進了。"],["彭部長啓明：是，委員，這個我們都注意到了，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好，OK。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請廖偉翔、廖召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}}