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{\"word\": \"擊\"}]}, {\"start\": 552.333, \"end\": 577.543, \"text\": \"那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為他禁止使用廚餘的時候他會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當他在禁止的這段時間\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 552.333, \"end\": 552.613, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 552.613, \"end\": 552.953, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 552.953, \"end\": 553.073, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 553.073, \"end\": 553.273, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 553.273, \"end\": 553.894, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 553.894, \"end\": 554.214, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 554.214, \"end\": 554.394, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 554.394, \"end\": 554.494, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 554.494, \"end\": 554.894, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"者\", 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00:01:37,895\n那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下\n\n5\n00:01:38,983 --> 00:02:05,997\n現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們\n\n6\n00:02:07,592 --> 00:02:24,057\n農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵組落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的\n\n7\n00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:51,347\n完了以後他是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實他的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話\n\n8\n00:02:52,648 --> 00:03:15,879\n重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長\n\n9\n00:03:16,839 --> 00:03:44,776\n農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬喔那目前環境部的報告說進位豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗喔那進位後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛\n\n10\n00:03:46,317 --> 00:04:08,018\n但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應喔所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎\n\n11\n00:04:09,139 --> 00:04:34,735\n短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的是\n\n12\n00:04:35,015 --> 00:04:56,670\n是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場\n\n13\n00:04:57,691 --> 00:05:23,678\n是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式\n\n14\n00:05:27,239 --> 00:05:42,166\n那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範\n\n15\n00:05:43,286 --> 00:06:01,479\n那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的\n\n16\n00:06:02,359 --> 00:06:25,356\n對那個時候我也在現場早上那因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只是想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代嘛就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土\n\n17\n00:06:26,597 --> 00:06:40,613\n覆土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有覆土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規嘛那好謝謝部長喔\n\n18\n00:06:41,274 --> 00:06:55,230\n那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水\n\n19\n00:06:56,511 --> 00:07:18,968\n或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考\n\n20\n00:07:19,808 --> 00:07:39,252\n包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器喔如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個錯誤對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多啦\n\n21\n00:07:39,432 --> 00:08:08,401\n我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘啦因為這個東西經過這個有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料好那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好所以請這個部長可以把這個建議好帶回去研議喔對這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入\n\n22\n00:08:09,662 --> 00:08:16,108\n這個引導補助的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來\n\n23\n00:08:24,415 --> 00:08:44,945\n環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展\n\n24\n00:08:45,845 --> 00:09:09,072\n所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘喔但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增喔所以部長是不是也同意喔因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊\n\n25\n00:09:12,333 --> 00:09:37,543\n那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為他禁止使用廚餘的時候他會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當他在禁止的這段時間\n\n26\n00:09:39,652 --> 00:10:02,320\n鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助嘛對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案嘛因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行\n\n27\n00:10:04,201 --> 00:10:19,377\n那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場\n\n28\n00:10:20,578 --> 00:10:45,556\n那部長有了解這個問題的主因嗎我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調的是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別那你們現在試出了嗎有一個平台沒有嗎\n\n29\n00:10:46,316 --> 00:11:06,043\n我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解\n\n30\n00:11:06,423 --> 00:11:30,134\n如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦\n\n31\n00:11:30,794 --> 00:11:48,216\n那所以這部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%啦或彰化肉圓店停業10天啊如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對比如說相關需求真正需要的比如團善業者啦自助餐啦賣場優先供應啊\n\n32\n00:11:49,958 --> 00:12:16,030\n我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議\n\n33\n00:12:17,330 --> 00:12:40,096\n工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂台價這個部分我想我們會來看施助的啟動所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小吃店相關的\n\n34\n00:12:41,536 --> 00:12:54,585\n他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長\n\n35\n00:12:55,592 --> 00:13:19,302\n部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個除於珍珠申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方\n\n36\n00:13:22,548 --> 00:13:29,914\n這個我們有一個表齁這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查\n\n37\n00:13:42,264 --> 00:13:58,363\n所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛所以你們媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實那就會依照廢棄法來處理對嘛所以我就很清楚的問你他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實他沒有上傳你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎\n\n38\n00:13:59,827 --> 00:14:09,894\n基本上這個是他要徵組他就要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有徵組\n\n39\n00:14:16,158 --> 00:14:30,465\n對結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛\n\n40\n00:14:31,105 --> 00:14:53,803\n剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理\n\n41\n00:14:54,423 --> 00:15:18,361\n因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分佈在全台灣各個縣市\n\n42\n00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:23,072\n對那你現在變是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎\n\n43\n00:15:37,262 --> 00:16:01,747\n他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去\n\n44\n00:16:02,407 --> 00:16:25,934\n那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦我有看到那個表格做好一個比較那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點有些縣市喔那很多個縣市嗎\n\n45\n00:16:28,922 --> 00:16:39,505\n我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞\n\n46\n00:16:41,926 --> 00:17:03,805\n部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的\n\n47\n00:17:05,026 --> 00:17:31,956\n也不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程中央有一個法則如果有個強制令胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候你有沒有更好的集中管理方式\n\n48\n00:17:32,936 --> 00:17:47,345\n今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施\n\n49\n00:17:49,371 --> 00:18:15,002\n委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛\n\n50\n00:18:16,002 --> 00:18:38,168\n林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全\n\n51\n00:18:38,948 --> 00:18:56,431\n如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個\n\n52\n00:18:57,692 --> 00:19:15,884\n強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用\n\n53\n00:19:16,844 --> 00:19:40,295\n長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是\n\n54\n00:19:46,198 --> 00:19:48,907\n好是好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖長召委謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5971\t34178\t謝謝主席 請農業部長跟環境部長再請陳部長 彭部長廖委員好 趙委員好兩位部長好其實討論這件事情也要去看整個時間的流程嘛和整個工作的流程到底哪一個環節出了問題那我想要請問一下這一次的非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎\n36051\t60518\t現在台東市政府的疫調報告雖然說他出版出來了但是在出版出來裡面還有一些必須釐清的所以現在政治的報告還沒有出來那請問一下除了邊境上的漏網之魚之外讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來並且進入到所謂的廚餘的體系當中請問還有其他的傳染途徑嗎我想過去台灣並沒有費多豬瘟所以\n62438\t91013\t非洲豬瘟的首例一定是從境外移出來的對 一定是從境外移出來但是在我們的防衛機制裡面第一關就是邊境攔阻 儘可能的攔阻然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚然後就會進到本身的除夷的落實除夷的徵阻條件那除夷的徵阻條件的時候才是一個最後的一個保關那這個部分要落實稽查就比較沒有問題所以部長 所以你剛剛也講到了嘛所以邊境先失守 進到除夷系統\n91613\t97895\t那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下\n98983\t125997\t現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們\n127592\t144057\t農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是 廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵組落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的\n154480\t171347\t完了以後他是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實他的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話\n172648\t195879\t重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長\n196839\t224776\t農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬喔那目前環境部的報告說進位豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗喔那進位後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛\n226317\t248018\t但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應喔所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎\n249139\t274735\t短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的是\n275015\t296670\t是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場\n297691\t323678\t是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式\n327239\t342166\t那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範\n343286\t361479\t那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好 報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的\n362359\t385356\t對 那個時候我也在現場早上那因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只是想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代嘛就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土\n386597\t400613\t覆土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有覆土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規嘛那好謝謝部長喔\n401274\t415230\t那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水\n416511\t438968\t或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考\n439808\t459252\t包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器喔如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個錯誤對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多啦\n459432\t488401\t我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘啦因為這個東西經過這個有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料好那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好所以請這個部長可以把這個建議好帶回去研議喔對這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入\n489662\t496108\t這個引導補助的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好 再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來\n504415\t524945\t環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展\n525845\t549072\t所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘喔但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增喔所以部長是不是也同意喔因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊\n552333\t577543\t那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為他禁止使用廚餘的時候他會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當他在禁止的這段時間\n579652\t602320\t鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助嘛對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案嘛因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行\n604201\t619377\t那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場\n620578\t645556\t那部長有了解這個問題的主因嗎我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調的是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別那你們現在試出了嗎有一個平台沒有嗎\n646316\t666043\t我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解\n666423\t690134\t如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦\n690794\t708216\t那所以這部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%啦或彰化肉圓店停業10天啊如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對比如說相關需求真正需要的比如團善業者啦自助餐啦賣場優先供應啊\n709958\t736030\t我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議\n737330\t760096\t工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂台價這個部分我想我們會來看施助的啟動所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小吃店相關的\n761536\t774585\t他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長\n775592\t799302\t部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個除於珍珠申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方\n802548\t809914\t這個我們有一個表齁 這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛 對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況 對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡 法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查\n822264\t838363\t所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛 所以你們媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有 委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實 那就會依照廢棄法來處理對嘛 所以我就很清楚的問你 他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實 他沒有上傳 你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎\n839827\t849894\t基本上這個是他要徵組他就要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有徵組\n856158\t870465\t對 結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛\n871105\t893803\t剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理\n894423\t918361\t因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分佈在全台灣各個縣市\n919990\t923072\t對那你現在變是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎\n937262\t961747\t他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去\n962407\t985934\t那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少 針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦 我有看到那個表格做好一個比較 那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點有些縣市喔 那很多個縣市嗎\n988922\t999505\t我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞\n1001926\t1023805\t部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的\n1025026\t1051956\t也不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程中央有一個法則如果有個強制令胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候你有沒有更好的集中管理方式\n1052936\t1067345\t今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施\n1069371\t1095002\t委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛\n1096002\t1118168\t林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全\n1118948\t1136431\t如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個\n1137692\t1155884\t強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用\n1156844\t1180295\t長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對 您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是\n1186198\t1188907\t好是好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖長召委謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂\n","txt":"謝謝主席 請農業部長跟環境部長再請陳部長 彭部長廖委員好 趙委員好兩位部長好其實討論這件事情也要去看整個時間的流程嘛和整個工作的流程到底哪一個環節出了問題那我想要請問一下這一次的非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎\n現在台東市政府的疫調報告雖然說他出版出來了但是在出版出來裡面還有一些必須釐清的所以現在政治的報告還沒有出來那請問一下除了邊境上的漏網之魚之外讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來並且進入到所謂的廚餘的體系當中請問還有其他的傳染途徑嗎我想過去台灣並沒有費多豬瘟所以\n非洲豬瘟的首例一定是從境外移出來的對 一定是從境外移出來但是在我們的防衛機制裡面第一關就是邊境攔阻 儘可能的攔阻然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚然後就會進到本身的除夷的落實除夷的徵阻條件那除夷的徵阻條件的時候才是一個最後的一個保關那這個部分要落實稽查就比較沒有問題所以部長 所以你剛剛也講到了嘛所以邊境先失守 進到除夷系統\n那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下\n現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們\n農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是 廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵組落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的\n完了以後他是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實他的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話\n重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長\n農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬喔那目前環境部的報告說進位豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗喔那進位後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛\n但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應喔所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎\n短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的是\n是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場\n是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式\n那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範\n那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好 報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的\n對 那個時候我也在現場早上那因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只是想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代嘛就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土\n覆土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有覆土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規嘛那好謝謝部長喔\n那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水\n或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考\n包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器喔如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個錯誤對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多啦\n我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘啦因為這個東西經過這個有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料好那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好所以請這個部長可以把這個建議好帶回去研議喔對這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入\n這個引導補助的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好 再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來\n環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展\n所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘喔但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增喔所以部長是不是也同意喔因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊\n那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為他禁止使用廚餘的時候他會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當他在禁止的這段時間\n鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助嘛對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案嘛因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行\n那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場\n那部長有了解這個問題的主因嗎我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調的是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別那你們現在試出了嗎有一個平台沒有嗎\n我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解\n如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦\n那所以這部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%啦或彰化肉圓店停業10天啊如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對比如說相關需求真正需要的比如團善業者啦自助餐啦賣場優先供應啊\n我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議\n工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂台價這個部分我想我們會來看施助的啟動所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小吃店相關的\n他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長\n部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個除於珍珠申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方\n這個我們有一個表齁 這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛 對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況 對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡 法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查\n所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛 所以你們媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有 委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實 那就會依照廢棄法來處理對嘛 所以我就很清楚的問你 他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實 他沒有上傳 你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎\n基本上這個是他要徵組他就要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有徵組\n對 結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛\n剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理\n因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分佈在全台灣各個縣市\n對那你現在變是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎\n他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去\n那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少 針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦 我有看到那個表格做好一個比較 那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點有些縣市喔 那很多個縣市嗎\n我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞\n部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的\n也不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程中央有一個法則如果有個強制令胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候你有沒有更好的集中管理方式\n今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施\n委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛\n林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全\n如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個\n強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用\n長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對 您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是\n好是好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖長召委謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.971 --> 00:34.178\n謝謝主席請農業部長跟環境部長再請陳部長彭部長廖委員好趙委員好兩位部長好其實討論這件事情也要去看整個時間的流程嘛和整個工作的流程到底哪一個環節出了問題那我想要請問一下這一次的非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎\n\n00:36.051 --> 01:00.518\n現在台東市政府的疫調報告雖然說他出版出來了但是在出版出來裡面還有一些必須釐清的所以現在政治的報告還沒有出來那請問一下除了邊境上的漏網之魚之外讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來並且進入到所謂的廚餘的體系當中請問還有其他的傳染途徑嗎我想過去台灣並沒有費多豬瘟所以\n\n01:02.438 --> 01:31.013\n非洲豬瘟的首例一定是從境外移出來的對一定是從境外移出來但是在我們的防衛機制裡面第一關就是邊境攔阻儘可能的攔阻然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚然後就會進到本身的除夷的落實除夷的徵阻條件那除夷的徵阻條件的時候才是一個最後的一個保關那這個部分要落實稽查就比較沒有問題所以部長所以你剛剛也講到了嘛所以邊境先失守進到除夷系統\n\n01:31.613 --> 01:37.895\n那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下\n\n01:38.983 --> 02:05.997\n現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們\n\n02:07.592 --> 02:24.057\n農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵組落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的\n\n02:34.480 --> 02:51.347\n完了以後他是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實他的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話\n\n02:52.648 --> 03:15.879\n重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長\n\n03:16.839 --> 03:44.776\n農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬喔那目前環境部的報告說進位豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗喔那進位後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛\n\n03:46.317 --> 04:08.018\n但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應喔所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎\n\n04:09.139 --> 04:34.735\n短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的是\n\n04:35.015 --> 04:56.670\n是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場\n\n04:57.691 --> 05:23.678\n是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式\n\n05:27.239 --> 05:42.166\n那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範\n\n05:43.286 --> 06:01.479\n那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的\n\n06:02.359 --> 06:25.356\n對那個時候我也在現場早上那因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只是想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代嘛就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土\n\n06:26.597 --> 06:40.613\n覆土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有覆土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規嘛那好謝謝部長喔\n\n06:41.274 --> 06:55.230\n那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水\n\n06:56.511 --> 07:18.968\n或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考\n\n07:19.808 --> 07:39.252\n包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器喔如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個錯誤對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多啦\n\n07:39.432 --> 08:08.401\n我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘啦因為這個東西經過這個有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料好那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好所以請這個部長可以把這個建議好帶回去研議喔對這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入\n\n08:09.662 --> 08:16.108\n這個引導補助的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來\n\n08:24.415 --> 08:44.945\n環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展\n\n08:45.845 --> 09:09.072\n所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘喔但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增喔所以部長是不是也同意喔因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊\n\n09:12.333 --> 09:37.543\n那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為他禁止使用廚餘的時候他會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當他在禁止的這段時間\n\n09:39.652 --> 10:02.320\n鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助嘛對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案嘛因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行\n\n10:04.201 --> 10:19.377\n那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場\n\n10:20.578 --> 10:45.556\n那部長有了解這個問題的主因嗎我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調的是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別那你們現在試出了嗎有一個平台沒有嗎\n\n10:46.316 --> 11:06.043\n我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解\n\n11:06.423 --> 11:30.134\n如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦\n\n11:30.794 --> 11:48.216\n那所以這部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%啦或彰化肉圓店停業10天啊如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對比如說相關需求真正需要的比如團善業者啦自助餐啦賣場優先供應啊\n\n11:49.958 --> 12:16.030\n我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議\n\n12:17.330 --> 12:40.096\n工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂台價這個部分我想我們會來看施助的啟動所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小吃店相關的\n\n12:41.536 --> 12:54.585\n他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長\n\n12:55.592 --> 13:19.302\n部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個除於珍珠申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方\n\n13:22.548 --> 13:29.914\n這個我們有一個表齁這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查\n\n13:42.264 --> 13:58.363\n所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛所以你們媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實那就會依照廢棄法來處理對嘛所以我就很清楚的問你他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實他沒有上傳你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎\n\n13:59.827 --> 14:09.894\n基本上這個是他要徵組他就要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有徵組\n\n14:16.158 --> 14:30.465\n對結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛\n\n14:31.105 --> 14:53.803\n剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理\n\n14:54.423 --> 15:18.361\n因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分佈在全台灣各個縣市\n\n15:19.990 --> 15:23.072\n對那你現在變是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎\n\n15:37.262 --> 16:01.747\n他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去\n\n16:02.407 --> 16:25.934\n那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦我有看到那個表格做好一個比較那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點有些縣市喔那很多個縣市嗎\n\n16:28.922 --> 16:39.505\n我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞\n\n16:41.926 --> 17:03.805\n部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的\n\n17:05.026 --> 17:31.956\n也不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程中央有一個法則如果有個強制令胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候你有沒有更好的集中管理方式\n\n17:32.936 --> 17:47.345\n今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施\n\n17:49.371 --> 18:15.002\n委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛\n\n18:16.002 --> 18:38.168\n林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全\n\n18:38.948 --> 18:56.431\n如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個\n\n18:57.692 --> 19:15.884\n強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用\n\n19:16.844 --> 19:40.295\n長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是\n\n19:46.198 --> 19:48.907\n好是好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖長召委謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.971,"end":34.178,"text":"謝謝主席 請農業部長跟環境部長再請陳部長 彭部長廖委員好 趙委員好兩位部長好其實討論這件事情也要去看整個時間的流程嘛和整個工作的流程到底哪一個環節出了問題那我想要請問一下這一次的非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎"},{"start":36.051,"end":60.518,"text":"現在台東市政府的疫調報告雖然說他出版出來了但是在出版出來裡面還有一些必須釐清的所以現在政治的報告還沒有出來那請問一下除了邊境上的漏網之魚之外讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來並且進入到所謂的廚餘的體系當中請問還有其他的傳染途徑嗎我想過去台灣並沒有費多豬瘟所以"},{"start":62.438,"end":91.013,"text":"非洲豬瘟的首例一定是從境外移出來的對 一定是從境外移出來但是在我們的防衛機制裡面第一關就是邊境攔阻 儘可能的攔阻然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚然後就會進到本身的除夷的落實除夷的徵阻條件那除夷的徵阻條件的時候才是一個最後的一個保關那這個部分要落實稽查就比較沒有問題所以部長 所以你剛剛也講到了嘛所以邊境先失守 進到除夷系統"},{"start":91.613,"end":97.895,"text":"那接下來出於系統要怎麼去管理嘛對不對所以照這個流程圖應該蠻清楚但我想要請問一下"},{"start":98.983,"end":125.997,"text":"現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現然後邊境輸入相關的製品帶到台灣來然後地方的通報圍堵等等的那現在禁止廚餘養豬然後現在推動肥料化啦能源化啦焚化備援那我想要請問我們政府的政策的長期方向是什麼就是未來你究竟是要持續廚餘養豬呢還是我跟委員報告就是我們"},{"start":127.592,"end":144.057,"text":"農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵我們的廚藝養豬做轉型那從108年107年間2000多場一直到現在434場表示這樣子一個轉型是有用的另外就是 廚藝養豬本身的廚藝他如果經過徵組落實他的安檢的就是食安的飼料的一個問題的"},{"start":154.48,"end":171.347,"text":"完了以後他是安全的所以非常重要就是本身的這些廚餘的監控如果說能夠落實他的監控的話以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的是很好所以換句話說部長你的意思就是如果繼續使用廚餘的話"},{"start":172.648,"end":195.879,"text":"重點在於管理是對吧是沒錯好那所以像我們現在的管理等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘好那所以這管理上會是一個很大的挑戰那管理我們等一下再來討論現在就會變成是你短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話我想要請教一下因為農業部我要這個部分我要請教環境部長"},{"start":196.839,"end":224.776,"text":"農業部是宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬喔那目前環境部的報告說進位豬之前呢全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日大概生產約2115噸嘛那其中1324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系是去化再利用的最大宗喔那進位後雖然有這個堆肥啦或是驗養發酵跟其他再利用的量能合計是1620噸嘛"},{"start":226.317,"end":248.018,"text":"但是仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或者掩埋因應喔所以我想要理解的意思是說如果目前的這個缺短缺如果是這個閒置量能量全開也就是達到1620然後再加上焚化跟掩埋是有辦法完全去化的嗎是這樣子嗎依照你們計算是對的嗎"},{"start":249.139,"end":274.735,"text":"短時間是沒有問題但是長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來的垃圾的這個處理所以目前來看的話這個是短時間我們也希望說短時間內有一個更好的一個因應方式不能夠拖太久當然所以我想要請問一下所以是不管是淨衛廚餘之前前後啊掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理的廚餘區劃的管道之一嗎是在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的是"},{"start":275.015,"end":296.67,"text":"是在這個時期才特別允許那之前呢在之前以前也是可以允許的對嘛那所以你就不要這個只講一部分嘛所以就是說前後都是屬於其中一種去化方式嘛好那所以進一步我還是要繼續問我們的彭部長那也根據這個地方的部分的民代有反映原本在台中市的文山掩埋場"},{"start":297.691,"end":323.678,"text":"是因為對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理導致可能有部分的垃圾外漏的情況那這大概是10月24號以前的可能的照片那但是你們的嚴署長環境管理署的嚴署長在昨天下午也舉行這個相關的記者會說10月26號的時候是不是有跟台中市政府的副市長跟台中環保局一起到共同到現場去勘查跟討論最終決議為掩埋的方式"},{"start":327.239,"end":342.166,"text":"那你們在視察的時候也說除於應該確實的落實在這個環境管理還有加強防範貓狗等動物密使同時用附土掩蓋那這個時候台中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範"},{"start":343.286,"end":361.479,"text":"那昨天呢這個嚴署長也說目前台中廚餘改為這個掩埋處理後都是合法合規喔然後在昨天又再派人到現場督查我想要請問部長目前的督查的結果是怎麼樣是已經都合法合規嗎好 報告委員喔這個10月26號的時候我是特別請我們副署長去的"},{"start":362.359,"end":385.356,"text":"對 那個時候我也在現場早上那因為原來我們開工作會議的上午在開工作會議的時候台中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場那這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋所以部長我只是想問說你們現在昨天去的現場看的狀況如何要給大家一個交代嘛就是說昨天我們有去四個地方那其中有兩個是有進行定期的一個復土"},{"start":386.597,"end":400.613,"text":"覆土的話就是不要引發環境衛生的一個問題那有兩個沒有覆土所以我們也跟他們協商那他們也願意來改善所以他們現在都配合了中央的規範然後也一切依法合規嘛那好謝謝部長喔"},{"start":401.274,"end":415.23,"text":"那除了後端處理之外其他的廚餘可能是在源頭管控上可能也有一些需要改善的地方啦例如一般家庭如果能夠使用所謂的廚餘機之類的機器或是將廚餘高溫處理破碎並脫水"},{"start":416.511,"end":438.968,"text":"或者是在商業或者是機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器啟動這個源頭減量然後脫水的預處理這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒也不會降低焚化爐的溫度那我想要請問一下有沒有評估安裝類似的機器或漁醫補助就是說這個補助政策現在有沒有在思考"},{"start":439.808,"end":459.252,"text":"包委員因為像我知道說屏東很像他們自己縣政府有自己有補助但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的這樣的一個想法因為這個機器喔如果要到每一個家戶來做使用的話其實我們過去沒有這樣的一個特別的一個錯誤對但是這次可以看到從源頭如果有去做這樣的事情應該也可以幫助很多啦"},{"start":459.432,"end":488.401,"text":"我所知道是很多的民眾會自己去減少廚餘啦因為這個東西經過這個有不一樣的這個廚餘機有不一樣的一個做法有些還可以做成肥料好那本席是建議說這個部長這邊可以去思考回去看看說怎麼來補助或者是說鼓勵這件事情好所以請這個部長可以把這個建議好帶回去研議喔對這個因為現在目前有些地方有在做了所以我們會尊重地方他們的一個做法你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣那中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入"},{"start":489.662,"end":496.108,"text":"這個引導補助的行列我們會來努力看看因為這個要一大筆預算好 再來我想要請教農業部長台灣養豬協會理事長潘蓮舟說廚餘養豬7年前本來就要禁止但7年來"},{"start":504.415,"end":524.945,"text":"環境部卻沒有真正做到畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的那認為說既然有人能夠幫忙去化環境部也樂的先暫緩增進或是改進相關的設備所以無論擴充黑水盲或生殖能的這些處理線的措施都沒有顯著的進展"},{"start":525.845,"end":549.072,"text":"所以這也構成了現在豬農的困境那目前使用廚餘養豬的有435場那其中一半的是養白豬可以馬上改為飼料但是另外一半養黑豬的必須35公斤以上開始使用廚餘喔但是若改成飼料成本可能會大增喔所以部長是不是也同意喔因為是不是可以針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼減少這個農民的衝擊"},{"start":552.333,"end":577.543,"text":"那我記得我們前上禮拜也有開記者會你們有說要回去研議怎麼樣去補助那這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下我跟委員說明第一個就是不是只有黑豬吃廚餘白豬也會吃廚餘黑豬白豬都會吃但是因為他禁止使用廚餘的時候他會用飼料那我們也在規劃就是說當他在禁止的這段時間"},{"start":579.652,"end":602.32,"text":"鎖匙的飼料跟廚藝之間的一個價差的一個補助嘛對那這個部分我剛才說的我對整個豬產業鏈的整個產業鏈裡面我們會在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的完整的方案好所以這禮拜五以前那個部長會提出完整的這個相關的措施補助方案嘛因為我們相關的補助方案要抱怨同意好謝謝謝謝部長來執行"},{"start":604.201,"end":619.377,"text":"那也根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果其實原本的豬肉批發價每公斤是120元那如今已經衝破了200元有些可能甚至更高那零售商普遍也抱怨價格滿天飛那誰手上有貨誰就可以決定這個市場"},{"start":620.578,"end":645.556,"text":"那部長有了解這個問題的主因嗎我跟委員報告就是現在禁運的時候對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高但是我們在過往的我強調的是國產豬肉的冷凍庫存的部分大概還有大概5.7萬噸左右那它可以供應我們國內的消費大概一個月的時間所以這個部分我們也特別那你們現在試出了嗎有一個平台沒有嗎"},{"start":646.316,"end":666.043,"text":"我們有平台然後透過這個平台如果說餐廳本身比較需要用量大的他可以跟平台來做這樣子一個穩定的部分但是消費端的時候有沒有消費端的時候我們其實也透過相關的經濟部或其他的就是說當他用冷凍肉買的那個價格我們大概了解"},{"start":666.423,"end":690.134,"text":"如果后端如果有刻意哄抬的时候我觉得应该要适度的处理所以本席就是建议你们这个价格透明跟管理的部分很重要你们现在的这个有没有相关的措施已经在着手了因为接下来看起来未来三周都是进载期嘛是好那末端市场就已经在反应了还有两个礼拜对那大型的卖场大型的卖场还有颁布限购率但是肉也是被扫光哦"},{"start":690.794,"end":708.216,"text":"那所以這部分也包含什麼滷肉店漲價15%啦或彰化肉圓店停業10天啊如果再演變下去可能會有一些民眾在恐慌性的購買所以這個部分你們是不是也可以針對比如說相關需求真正需要的比如團善業者啦自助餐啦賣場優先供應啊"},{"start":709.958,"end":736.03,"text":"我特別強調團戰業者我們直接媒合在冷凍工會所以團戰業者本身的料沒有問題超市賣場的部分也已經串接了所以你去看超市賣場本身它的價格是不變的但是它的供應量可能會受到限制那另外一塊是餐廳的部分那您剛才講的可能都是在小吃店的部分可能會有一些價格的浮動所以我們今天會議"},{"start":737.33,"end":760.096,"text":"工作會議會討論要不要啟動聯合稽查這是不得已的手段因為在這個時間點問題豬肉沒有都是用冷凍豬肉冷凍豬肉相對的本身供應如果足夠的話你末端的消費不應該亂台價這個部分我想我們會來看施助的啟動所以部長這部分要請你多加費心因為這是末端消費者甚至是小吃店相關的"},{"start":761.536,"end":774.585,"text":"他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊我們院長特別強調就是說在這段時間我們對物價的監控物價的穩定一定要落實好謝謝那請那個農業部長回座我最後問最後一題問我們的彭部長"},{"start":775.592,"end":799.302,"text":"部長其實今天環境部的今天的報告第3頁第4頁有寫到這個除於珍珠申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理那近年中有435家配合上傳的情形是你說申報率90%以上的358可是其實低於90%的有77家請問這77家分佈在哪些地方"},{"start":802.548,"end":809.914,"text":"這個我們有一個表齁 這個每個縣市大概都有一些每個縣市都有嘛 對不對所以不是只有台中有出現這樣的狀況 對不對那沒有達到100%的有少上傳的怎麼處罰你們罰則在哪裡 法令依據是什麼基本上處罰不是原則我們就會發函給各個縣市環保局要求他們去稽查"},{"start":822.264,"end":838.363,"text":"所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛 所以你們媒體的回應是有問題嗎沒有沒有 委員如果說他沒有進行斟酌的事實 那就會依照廢棄法來處理對嘛 所以我就很清楚的問你 他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實 他沒有上傳 你先把這兩件事分開的話他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎"},{"start":839.827,"end":849.894,"text":"基本上這個是他要徵組他就要透過這個系統來做監控其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多我想這個就不用再去辯論這上傳是沒有罰則嘛沒上傳沒罰則嘛對不對這不是罰則的問題是他到底有沒有徵組"},{"start":856.158,"end":870.465,"text":"對 結論是真主嘛但是我現在本席問的是一個單純的沒有上傳的問題因為你們就說這個環管署的原署長在會中就說中央建制申報系統讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具嘛"},{"start":871.105,"end":893.803,"text":"剛剛我們一直說你輔助管理工具這件事情我們前面開頭的第一題我們就說了如果你使用廚餘養豬重點在於管理會有問題對不對所以我想要請問一下這就是大家很清楚知道的管理要怎麼落實嗎那你現在的輔助系統你上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下你怎麼落實管理"},{"start":894.423,"end":918.361,"text":"因為我本席舉例像日本他們的做法可能都是很多的這個共同烹煮或集中管理再分配到豬農那現在顯然這段時間以來你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬可是管理上面沒有辦法精進也沒辦法落實所以我剛剛想問的就是說那你這個剛剛你也說了沒有依照每天上船的分佈在全台灣各個縣市"},{"start":919.99,"end":923.072,"text":"對那你現在變是好像只針對台中市我想要請問這是一個系統問題因為環境部是主管機關我就是想要請問那針對這個事情你這個法則沒有的話你怎麼要求他而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節他的照片是不是當天的你們都回答不出來嗎"},{"start":937.262,"end":961.747,"text":"他如果是翻拍你可不可以證明他是當天的這都有問題嗎報委員你不能這樣說因為我們是在當天禮拜天的工作會議裡面我們協助這個找出這個疫調的過程當中我們發現他這個真足沒有確實所以我們副署長有特別提出來那你說到說其他縣市到底有沒有做我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去"},{"start":962.407,"end":985.934,"text":"那我想要請問一下就是各個縣市現在平均如果從1月到9月的話各縣市稽查次數多少 針對這個廚餘養豬場我們有一個數據啦 我有看到那個表格做好一個比較 那很多的縣市是沒有問題的的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點有些縣市喔 那很多個縣市嗎"},{"start":988.922,"end":999.505,"text":"我想要表達的事情部長我想要表達的事情就是你所謂的輔助管理系統你應該是通盤的去檢視這個是不是有漏洞"},{"start":1001.926,"end":1023.805,"text":"部長所以我要講的事情就是這個好嗎你剛剛說這個台中市政府的問題那過去連續三年他們都有獲獎我們獲獎跟這個基層不一樣的事情喔我知道你有說你是針對那你們的評判標準在哪裡那個是在除以特別是針對外埔的這個廠他們經營的"},{"start":1025.026,"end":1051.956,"text":"也不錯部長我跟你說這個是一整個工作流程中央有一個法則如果有個強制令胡蘿蔔跟棒子你要求這個養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下上傳完還是一件事稽查又是另外一件事地方政府當然要落實稽查這個我想沒有人會反對可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢當你決定當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候你有沒有更好的集中管理方式"},{"start":1052.936,"end":1067.345,"text":"今天也許多委員問到嘛為什麼這個共同烹煮廠只有嘉義一個地方其實這就是長期政策回歸到第一題我們要問的就是你長期政策到底是什麼你有沒有相關的落實配套管理的措施"},{"start":1069.371,"end":1095.002,"text":"委員的意見我們會接受不過就是各個大多數的縣市對於稽查的頻率是非常不錯的那我們就不特別去說我們有這樣的一個數字OK所以台中市政府目前到9月也針對養豬場出入養豬場稽查也都是破百次了所以我要講的意思是說其實這個環節每一個環節都有關係你不能一味的只說這個是地方稽查有問題我們沒有我想要請你剛剛"},{"start":1096.002,"end":1118.168,"text":"林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題就是要跟你說你的上傳系統你什麼叫做輔助管理系統它上不上傳一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下它會造成系統性的風險今天這個整個台灣的養豬產業是2000億的2000億的一個產業甚至它關係到國人的食品安全"},{"start":1118.948,"end":1136.431,"text":"如果今天是一個台積電這樣的公司一個產值他會他會讓這樣的風險存在在那裡嗎如果你們是中央主管機關這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實有需要有一個明確的罰則的部分因為你針對那10%沒有照常上傳的這是不是應該也給他一個"},{"start":1137.692,"end":1155.884,"text":"強制性讓他要符合你們的標準去做甚至你在通報系統上面你的要求怎麼樣落實他們不能偽造這應該是環境部要回去檢討才可以解決系統性的問題不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用"},{"start":1156.844,"end":1180.295,"text":"長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來要持續使用廚餘養豬那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦我們有經濟的方案出來所以這次我們也看到有一些可能在改進的地方對 您的經濟方案可不可以您看什麼時間可以出來因為現在首要短期是防疫沒有錯所以我說你在防疫的過程中應該針對這個環節去加強落實因為你現在這塊也是馬上要處理的廚餘去化的問題是"},{"start":1186.198,"end":1188.907,"text":"好是好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖長召委謝謝部長接下來請黃修昂"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":793,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時7分）謝謝主席，請農業部部長和環境部部長。"],["主席：請陳部長、彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：廖委員好。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：兩位部長好。其實討論這件事情，也要看整個時間的流程和整個工作的流程，到底哪一個環節出了問題？首先請問，這次非洲豬瘟的傳染途徑已經查出來了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在臺中市政府的疫調報告，雖然初版出來了，但是初版裡面還有一些問題必須釐清，所以現在正式的報告還沒有出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：讓來自疫區的含豬肉食品被夾帶進來，並且進入到所謂的廚餘體系當中，除了邊境上的漏網之魚外，還有其他的傳染途徑嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：過去臺灣並沒有非洲豬瘟，所以非洲豬瘟的首例一定是從境外移入……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，一定是境外移入的。"],["陳部長駿季：但是在我們的防衛機制裡面，第一關就是邊境攔阻，儘可能的攔阻，然後一定是有一些可能的漏網之魚進到廚餘系統，而落實廚餘蒸煮條件，就是最後的把關，這個部分如果能落實稽查就比較沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你剛剛也講到，邊境先失守，進到廚餘系統，接下來就是廚餘系統要怎麼管理的問題，對不對？照這個流程圖來看應該蠻清楚的，現在就是非洲豬瘟在他國出現，經由邊境輸入相關製品而帶到臺灣來，然後是地方的通報、圍堵等等，現在則禁止廚餘養豬，推動肥料化、能源化、焚化備援，我想要請問，政府政策的長期方向是什麼？未來究竟是要持續廚餘養豬，還是……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我跟委員報告，農業部長久的立場一直是鼓勵廚餘養豬做轉型，從108年、107年間的兩千多場，一直到現在434場，表示這樣的一個轉型是有用的，另外就是……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是如果這件事情……"],["陳部長駿季：我先說，廚餘養豬本身的廚餘如果經過蒸煮，落實執行，那麼飼料本身是安全的，所以非常重要就是這些廚餘的監控，如果能夠落實它的監控，以廚餘當作飼料是沒有問題的。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好。換句話說，部長的意思就是，如果繼續使用廚餘，重點在於管理，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯，所以像我們現在的管理，等於是讓各個養豬場去處理這些廚餘，在管理上會是一個很大的挑戰，管理的部分，我們等一下再來討論。如果短期要禁止使用廚餘養豬的話，我想請教環境部長，農業部宣布從10月22日起全面禁止廚餘養豬，而環境部的報告說，禁餵豬之前，全國的家戶跟事業廚餘每日生產約2,115噸，其中1,324噸也就是62.6%是進入到養豬體系，是去化再利用的最大宗，禁餵後雖然有堆肥或是厭氧發酵跟其他再利用的量能，合計是1,620噸，仍然短缺495噸需要以焚化或掩埋因應。本席想要理解的是，目前的這個短缺，如果閒置量能全開，也就達到1,620，然後再加上焚化跟掩埋，有辦法完全去化嗎？是這樣子嗎？依照你們的計算是對的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，短時間是沒有問題，但長時間應該還是會排擠掉我們原來垃圾的處理，所以目前來看，我們也希望短時間內有一個更好的因應方式，不能夠拖太久。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然！所以，不管是禁餵廚餘之前後，掩埋是一個合法而且是被環境部納入建議處理廚餘去化的管道之一嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是，在這個非常時期的時候是特別允許的。"],["廖委員偉翔：在這個時期才特別允許，那之前呢？"],["彭部長啓明：以前也是可以允許的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！你就不要只講一部分。所以就是前、後都屬於其中一種去化方式。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我要繼續請問彭部長，因為地方有部分民代反映，原本臺中市文山掩埋場對於廚餘是採用堆肥的方式處理，可能會有部分垃圾外漏的情況，這張大概是10月24日以前的照片，但是你們環境管理署的顏署長在昨天下午舉行相關的記者會，10月26日的時候跟臺中市政府的副市長及臺中環保局一起到現場去勘查跟討論，最終決議為掩埋的方式。你們在視察的時候也說廚餘應該確實落實在環境管理，還要加強防範貓狗等動物覓食，同時用覆土掩蓋；臺中市政府也說全力配合中央的規範。昨天顏署長說：目前臺中廚餘改為掩埋處理後，都合法合規。然後昨天又再派人到現場督察。請問部長，督察的結果怎麼樣？已經都合法合規嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，10月26號的時候，我特別請我們副署長去的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，那個時候我也在現場。"],["彭部長啓明：原本我們上午在開工作會議的時候，臺中環保局是說用堆肥方式在掩埋場，這個就不符合我們這個對於堆肥或是掩埋……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我只是想問你們昨天去現場看的狀況如何？要給大家一個交代嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：昨天我們去看四個地方，其中兩個有進行定期的覆土，覆土就是不要引發環境衛生的問題；另有兩個沒有覆土，我們跟他們協商之後，他們也願意來改善。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以他們現在都配合中央的規範，一切依法合規嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。除了後端處理之外，其他的廚餘可能在源頭管控上也有一些需要改善的地方，例如一般家庭如果能夠使用廚餘機之類的機器，或是將廚餘高溫處理、破碎，並脫水，或是在商業或機關學校安裝廚餘處理機器，啟動源頭減量，然後脫水的預處理，這樣一來應該可以減少90%以上的體積，就算不小心混到垃圾裡面去焚燒，也不會降低焚化爐的溫度。我想請問一下，有沒有評估安裝類似機器或是予以補助？就是這個補助政策，現在有沒有在思考？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我知道像屏東縣政府他們自己好像有補助，但是本部目前為止並沒有補助的想法，因為這個機器如果要到每一戶家戶做使用的話，我們過去是沒有這樣一個特別的措施。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是這次如果可以從源頭去做這樣的事情，應該也可以幫助很多。"],["彭部長啓明：我知道很多的民眾會自己減少廚餘，因為不一樣的廚餘機有不一樣的作法，有些還可以做成肥料。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席建議部長這邊可以去回去思考，看看怎麼來補助或者是鼓勵這件事情。請部長可以把這個建議帶回去研議。"],["彭部長啓明：因為現在有些地方已經在做了，所以我們會尊重地方他們的做法。"],["廖委員偉翔：你也可以去視察結果怎麼樣，中央是不是也要想辦法一起加入引導補助的行列？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會考慮看看，因為這個要一大筆預算。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來我想請教農業部長，臺灣養豬協會理事長潘連周說廚餘養豬七年前本來就要禁止，但七年來環境部並沒有真正做到，畢竟廚餘能夠降低養殖的成本，豬農對於廚餘還是有需求的，認為既然有人能夠幫忙去化，環境部也樂得先暫緩跟進，或是改進相關的設備，所以無論擴充黑水虻或生質能這些處理線措施都沒有顯著的進展，這也構成了豬農現在的困境。目前使用養廚餘養豬的有435場，其中一半養的是白豬，可以馬上改為飼料，另外一半養黑豬的，35公斤以上必須開始使用廚餘，若改成飼料，成本可能會大增。所以部長是不是同意針對這些黑豬改用飼料提供補貼，減少農民的衝擊？我記得我們上禮拜也有開記者會，你們說要回去研議怎麼樣補助，這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，第一個，不是只有黑豬黑豬吃廚餘，白豬也會吃廚餘，黑豬、白豬都會吃；但是禁止使用廚餘的時候，他會用飼料，我們也在規劃在禁止的這段時間，所吃的飼料跟廚餘之間的一個價差……"],["廖委員偉翔：要給予補助嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。我剛才說了，我們對於整個豬的產業鏈，在這個禮拜之內一定會提出一個完整的方案。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以這個禮拜五前，部長會提出相關措施完整的補助方案，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為相關的補助方案要報院同意，我們會儘快來執行。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。根據媒體訪問豬肉零售商的結果，原本豬肉批發價每公斤是120元，如今已經衝破200元，有些可能甚至更高。零售商也都抱怨這個價格滿天飛，誰手上有貨，誰就可以決定這個市場。請問部長可了解這個問題的主因嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就是現在禁運的時候，對於溫體豬肉的需求的確比較高，但我要強調的是國產豬肉冷凍的庫存大概還有5.7萬噸左右，可以供應國內消費大概一個月的時間，所以這個部分，我們也特別……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們現在釋出了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分，我們也特別有一個平台……"],["廖委員偉翔：有平台了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有平台，透過這個平台，如果餐廳本身需要用量比較大的，他們可以跟平台來做穩定的部分；但是在消費端，因為冷凍肉的價格我們大概了解，如果後端有刻意哄抬的時候，我們也會透過經濟部或其他相關部門，應該要有適度的處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以本席就是建議你們，價格透明跟管理的部分很重要，相關的措施你們是不是已經在著手了？因為未來三週都是禁宰期，末端市場就已經在反應了。"],["陳部長駿季：還有兩個禮拜。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，大型的賣場還有頒布限購令，但肉也是被掃光，所以這個部分，包含滷肉店漲價15%、彰化肉園店停業十天，如果再演變下去，可能民眾會恐慌性的購買。這個部分你們是不是也可以針對相關需求，真正需要者，比如團膳業者、自助餐、賣場，優先供應？"],["陳部長駿季：我特別強調，對團膳業者我們直接媒合這些冷凍公會，所以團膳業者本身的料沒有問題；超市賣場的部分，也已經串接了。所以你去看超市賣場本身，它的價格是不變的，但是它的供應量可能會受到限制。另外是餐廳的部分，您剛才講的小吃店的部分，可能會有一些價格的浮動，所以我們今天的工作會議會討論，要不要啟動聯合稽查，這是不得已的手段，因為在這個時間點沒有溫體豬肉，都是用冷凍豬肉，冷凍豬肉本身的供應如果足夠的話，末端的消費不應該亂抬價，這個部分我想我們會適度的來啟動。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，部長，這部分要請你多加費心了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為這個是末端消費者的痛苦。"],["陳部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：甚至是小吃店相關的，他們的需求會不會也受到影響或是受到價格的衝擊，這個也要麻煩你。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們院長有特別強調，在這段時間我們對物價的監控、物價的穩定一定要落實。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝，請農業部長回座。","我最後一題要問彭部長。部長，環境部今天的報告在第3頁、第4頁有寫到廚餘蒸煮申報系統以及養豬戶配合上傳情形跟後續管理，近一年有435家配合上傳，你說申報率90%以上共358家，低於90%的有77家，請問這77家分布在哪些地方？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們有一個表，每個縣市大概都有一些。"],["廖委員偉翔：每個縣市都有，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以不是只有臺中出現這樣的狀況，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：那沒有達到100%的，有少上傳的，怎麼處罰？你們罰則在哪裡？法令依據是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上處罰不是原則，我們會發函給各個縣市環保局，要求他們去稽查。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以其實是沒有罰則的嘛！所以你們對媒體的回應是有問題嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，如果業者沒有進行蒸煮的事實，那就會依照廢清法來處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！所以我就很清楚地問你，他沒上傳照片這件事情跟他有沒有落實，你先把這兩件事情分開，他沒上傳的話有罰則嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上他要蒸煮……"],["廖委員偉翔：就沒有嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：他一定要透過這個系統來做監控，然後……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實剛剛林淑芬委員在這裡也問了很多，我想這個就不用再去辯論。"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：就是沒上傳沒罰則嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：這個不是罰則的問題，是他到底有沒有蒸煮。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，結論是蒸煮嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是本席現在問的是單純沒有上傳的問題，因為環管署顏署長在會中說明，「中央建置申報系統，讓業者上傳照片僅為輔助管理工具」，剛剛我們一直說輔助管理工具這件事情，在前面開頭的第一題我們就說了，如果你使用廚餘養豬，重點在於管理會有問題，對不對？所以我想要請問一下，大家很清楚知道管理要落實，但是你現在的輔助系統，他上傳跟不上傳根本沒有罰則的情況之下，你怎麼落實管理？本席舉例，像日本他們的做法可能有很多都是共同烹煮或集中管理，然後再分配到豬農嘛！那這段時間以來，顯然你們的政策決定是繼續用廚餘養豬，可是管理上面沒有辦法精進，也沒辦法落實。","剛剛你也說了，沒有依照每天上傳的是分布在全臺灣各個縣市，現在變成好像只針對臺中市，這是一個系統的問題，因為環境部是主管機關，針對這件事情如果沒有罰則的話，請問你怎麼要求他們？而且剛剛還有討論到很多細節，他的照片是不是當天的，你們都回答不出來嘛！他如果是翻拍，你可不可以證明照片是當天的？這個都有問題嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你不能這樣說，因為我們在當天（禮拜天）的工作會議裡面，也在協助找出疫調的過程當中發現他的蒸煮沒有確實，所以我們副署長有特別提出來。至於你說其他縣市到底有沒有做，我們的確這兩天有做了一些表格，也特別去看看有些縣市是不是沒有確實去稽查。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問一下，各個縣市現在平均，如果從1月到9月的話，各縣市稽查的次數是多少？針對廚餘養豬場。"],["彭部長啓明：這個請副署長來回答，我們有一個數據啦！我看到那個表格有做好比較，很多縣市是沒有問題的，的確有些縣市做得比較弱一點。"],["廖委員偉翔：有些縣市，有很多個縣市嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不多。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要表達的事情是，部長，你所謂的輔助管理系統，你應該是通盤地去檢視它是不是有漏洞，我要講的事情就是這個，好嗎？你剛剛說臺中市政府有問題，那過去連續3年他們都有獲獎。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，獲獎跟這個稽查是不一樣的事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，你有說你是針對它的生……那你們的評判標準在哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：那個是在廚餘，特別是針對外埔這個場，他們經營得不錯，回收再利用。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我要跟你說，這是一整個工作流程，中央有一個罰則，如果有一個強制令，胡蘿蔔跟棒子，你要求養豬場都落實上傳的情況之下，上傳完是一件事，稽查又是另外一件事，地方政府當然要落實稽查，這個我想沒有人會反對，可是你中央的管理手段是什麼呢？當你決定要用廚餘養豬的時候，你有沒有更好的集中管理方式？今天也有許多委員問到，為什麼共同烹煮場只有嘉義一個地方？其實這就是長期政策，回歸到第一題，我要問的就是，你的長期政策到底是什麼？你有沒有落實配套管理的相關措施？"],["彭部長啓明：委員的意見我們會接受，不過大多數縣市的稽查頻率是非常不錯的，那我們就不特別去說，我們有這樣的一個數字。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK，所以臺中市政府目前到9月，針對廚餘養豬場稽查也都是破百次了，我要講的意思是，其實每一個環節都有關係，你不能一味地只說這個是地方稽查有問題。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們沒有、我們沒有……"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛林淑芬委員花了十幾分鐘只講了最後這一題，就是要跟你說你的上傳系統，叫做輔助管理系統，他們上不上傳的一些細節都沒有辦法落實的情況之下，這會造成系統性的風險。","今天整個臺灣的養豬產業是2,000億的一個產業，甚至它關係到國人的食品安全，如果今天是台積電這樣一個公司的產值，他們會讓這樣子的風險存在在那裡嗎？如果你們是中央主管機關，這個部分是不是應該要去檢討落實？需要有一個明確的罰則，因為針對那10%沒有照常上傳的，是不是應該給他一個強制性，讓他要符合你們的標準去做？甚至在通報系統上面，你的要求要怎麼樣落實，讓他們不能偽造，這應該是環境部要回去檢討，才可以解決系統性的問題，不然你的長期政策沒有辦法讓人家放心，因為你們沒有辦法說你要用或不用。長期政策如果未來農業部跟環境部討論出來，要持續使用廚餘養豬，那你這個管理的部分怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：我們有精進的方案出來，所以這一次我們也看到有一些可能要再改進的地方。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的精進方案什麼時間可以出來？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們最近在防疫。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為現在首要，短期是防疫沒有錯，所以我說你在防疫的過程中，應該針對這一個環節去加強落實，因為你現在這一塊也是馬上要處理的，廚餘去化的問題嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔召委，謝謝部長。","接下來請黃秀芳委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}}