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{\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}]}, {\"start\": 153.638, \"end\": 179.916, \"text\": \"我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續原議那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研究中\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 153.638, \"end\": 153.998, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 153.998, \"end\": 154.399, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 154.399, \"end\": 154.839, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 154.839, \"end\": 155.039, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 155.039, \"end\": 155.159, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 155.159, \"end\": 156.32, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 156.32, \"end\": 156.52, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 156.52, \"end\": 156.54, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 156.54, \"end\": 157.281, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, 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00:00:48,219\n委員好部長好董事長好上一次我請教鄭董事長就有關於詐騙廠商拿政府靠的政商關係拿標案的事情其中受害的行政機關滿多的台鐵是列控4.0上次我有問到答案因為之前說還要研議\n\n3\n00:00:51,004 --> 00:01:11,807\n然後運安會直接說這個安全管理的核心目的不符台鐵原來事實上要暫緩推動可是上次我問說還在研議答案變成暫緩推動我上次是請教鄭董事長說為什麼你們不直接講實話去年年底的時候\n\n4\n00:01:12,728 --> 00:01:35,261\n那你們你說你要回去調查那你調查了以後昨天吧應該是昨天我不曉得是傍晚還是晚上終於把可能他知道你今天要來被備選如果報告還沒交來的話我一定會在這邊請教董事長所以同仁很辛苦昨天不曉得下午還是晚上終於把報告趕出來\n\n5\n00:01:36,394 --> 00:02:04,339\n我看完報告我只想跟董事長分享一個心得董事長其實我相信在各方面的經歷都很豐富中文我相信也是非常的鹹酥董事長可以回去看一下我老實說台鐵給我這份報告我完全看不懂我完全看不懂前面說是後續要研議\n\n6\n00:02:05,669 --> 00:02:32,558\n後面才說要暫緩推動然後我說就是前後矛盾說明不實但是你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次然後最後的結論是說回應沒有說明不實這個報告董事長你可以回去再看一下因為今天質詢的時間很珍貴我沒有要在這邊跟董事長去爭論\n\n7\n00:02:33,638 --> 00:02:59,916\n我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續原議那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研究中\n\n8\n00:03:01,357 --> 00:03:18,300\n那到了6月25號呢我上任以後您在這邊問我是要把這個事情兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告那我那時候就整個去把這個整個資料包括去年12月的這個整個委員會的資料來看來龍去脈我把它弄清楚\n\n9\n00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:42,873\n我就覺得說這案子不應該再繼續做了所以我就說這時候應該是暫緩推動就是說那時候的整個這案子不再推動是我那時候做的決策決定所以我就那時候跟委員報告所以大概是這樣的一個情況沒有關係啊董事長說明過經過就好了啦因為我之前有講過台鐵某個程度上也是被害人\n\n10\n00:03:44,636 --> 00:03:53,552\n因為有大官帶著廠商去台鐵要台鐵搞這個事情結果搞了半天了以後浪費國家一堆資源浪費國家一堆資源\n\n11\n00:03:55,233 --> 00:04:22,444\n那台鐵因此受害確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義除了肥的那個廠商以外浪費國家幾千萬浪費台鐵一堆人力時間物力以外毫無任何意義的計畫董事長你之前的事情我不會歸咎你你做了這個決斷停止就好了那但是\n\n12\n00:04:23,786 --> 00:04:48,425\n有一些責任我們還是要講清楚那個台鐵董事長可以請回了接下來請部長相同一個二子的廠商標到桃園三行下那當然他是跟晨運汽車合作他是分包商李立但是主要核心的自駕系統是由他負責然後兩個廠商當初一起去投標那投完標了以後果不其然\n\n13\n00:04:50,313 --> 00:05:11,393\n爛得不得了一樣不能用一樣不能用那一樣不能用接下來造成桃園三行下整個工程的延誤就已經很嚴重了那除了很嚴重了以外造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛到現在它總共造成的損害超過1億\n\n14\n00:05:14,161 --> 00:05:42,265\n那這種不能扛納稅人之愷二次的廠商造成三行下工程的延誤我老實說啦納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價了那因此所造成金錢上面的損失當然是要要回來嘛那我一直在追那我追結果淘氣給我的回覆是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式我就搞不懂了有什麼好研議的現在是廠商不賠嗎我有點搞不懂\n\n15\n00:05:42,933 --> 00:06:11,109\n報告委員該追溯的部分我們一定會追溯啦但我覺得這件事情第一陶基要先去核算出實際上要追溯的金額現在是1億983萬算出來了那第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式他願不願意賠第二步如果他不願意賠我們當然就要走司法的追溯現在對方願不願意賠這個目前他們還在溝通當中沒有關係喔那個請部長回去指示陶基的順便回覆我好不好第一個\n\n16\n00:06:12,009 --> 00:06:37,943\n對方要不要賠第二個錢什麼時候要追討回來其實我只要這兩個答案因為我們在國會監督不希望該討回來的錢因為特殊的廠商不討回來這樣子不好把時間講清楚因為我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案一方面拿政府的標案一方面賺政府的錢該賠給政府的不賠我看不懂\n\n17\n00:06:39,042 --> 00:07:01,297\n我看不懂我們的政府很慷慨很有錢嗎怎麼會讓他這樣子搞那第三個事情因為這件事情人命關天給我一分鐘就好了召委不好意思國道緩撞車事故頻傳我一直都說緩撞車事故頻傳因為那一天我去台積中開會\n\n18\n00:07:02,830 --> 00:07:23,389\n我從台中開完會回來了以後我就回來台北結果我那天真的還差點在高速公路上發生車禍我不是開玩笑的差一公尺然後我坐在那邊看我想了非常的久這真的是太危險了因為在內側車道突然\n\n19\n00:07:24,522 --> 00:07:47,973\n前面有一台車切到外側車道突然有一個燈亮了要煞車要切出去切不出去差點就撞上然後結果我才發現說裡面原來有工程車要施工有工程車要施工這是必然會發生的事情那我那天晚上其實回到家以後就是餘悸猶存啊我就一直在思考說\n\n20\n00:07:50,306 --> 00:08:10,224\n是我的感覺比較特殊還是這種事故發生過很多次所以我就去查了結果我發現兩年間這個移動性內車道施工完全就是我所遇到的狀況來部長看一下數字他的數字是126件126件現在不是一件不是兩件\n\n21\n00:08:17,165 --> 00:08:44,692\n不是個位數是126件跟其他型態的一比較內車車道的緩撞車他發生事故非常非常的頻繁非常非常的頻繁那我看到這個數字以後我非常的驚訝因為這個數字對比部長一看就知道了移動性內車道的施工的緩撞車撞上的數字高於其他類型的\n\n22\n00:08:46,007 --> 00:09:08,060\n其他類型的幾乎都個位數了不起十幾件這個是126件這後面一定有原因所以我又繼續去查了說那有沒有之前類似的是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統沒有認真好好開車所以撞上去但是我看了分析的比較\n\n23\n00:09:09,622 --> 00:09:23,028\n也不是這個狀況因為有很多他是沒有去用輔助駕車系統也就是真人在開的跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣比例啊非常非常的高在這樣的情況之下顯然\n\n24\n00:09:25,140 --> 00:09:39,194\n這絕對不是個案這一定是系統性的因素那因此我把相關的規範全部講完了以後全部都看完了以後我最後看到運安會的建議運安會也注意到這件事情了\n\n25\n00:09:40,409 --> 00:09:59,115\n強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施佈置的方式也就是你們現在佈置的方式我在圖上面顯現出來了相關的規範我大概都看了但問題是你們現在這個佈置的方式運安會\n\n26\n00:10:00,936 --> 00:10:28,716\n去參佐外國在內側的車道移動性的車輛施工佈置的方式以後提出具體的建議提出具體的建議說我們目前交通管制設施佈置的方式及施工的警示必須要更周延以利駕駛人用路的安全那這件事情我只想問一件事就是說依照運安會的建議高工局\n\n27\n00:10:29,897 --> 00:10:54,635\n開始研議改善措施了沒有還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽跟委員報告您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好有類似啦我自己也有開車在高速公路上面我也看到這個狀況同樣的狀況那數據上我們也有研析過確實這個緩撞車我們當時設置緩撞車是為了要保護前面的施工人員因為過去施工結果都撞到緩撞車\n\n28\n00:10:55,555 --> 00:11:24,575\n對後來都撞到緩撞車也跟委員報告當然時常有這個事故是非常不好而且必須要避免的所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了因為我自己開車也遇到這個狀況需要多久大概兩三個月之內我跟高工局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善這個部分我們已經在做了就是說緩撞車怎麼讓大家更明顯很遠就看得到說我該停車或該換道目前我自己開車的經驗覺得不夠明顯這個部分我們先來改善\n\n29\n00:11:25,636 --> 00:11:45,151\n部長我再跟你分享一個經驗今天時間的關係所以我沒有放帶子因為那個行車紀錄器其實影片我截取下來特別是當你前面有一台車的時候那台車發現前面有個緩撞車他趕快切車道就切出去等到他切出去的時候你真的看到的時候真的很有可能會來不及\n\n30\n00:11:46,482 --> 00:11:56,201\n那不過部長願意承認這個問題的存在也說高工局現在正在研議這個就是我質詢的目的但是我只拜託高工局拜託拜託趕快\n\n31\n00:11:58,598 --> 00:12:25,144\n真的趕快因為類似的事情我相信每天晚上特別是晚上的時候每天都在發生當中我們不希望造成更多的傷亡我們在幾個月前就已經啟動在討論這件事情了大概再兩三個月我們就會有結論我希望運安會按照外國他們做的方式給的具體的建議該改的規範該改善的部件的方式就要趕快\n\n32\n00:12:26,172 --> 00:12:41,133\n我不希望啦在這件事情真的完成改善了以後有更多無辜的人因此受到傷亡再拜託交通部再拜託高工局如果可能的話腳步再加快一點這個我們盡快好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4792\t8756\t謝謝主席麻煩有請交通部部長台鐵的董事長陳部長鄭董事長請委員好\n24714\t48219\t委員好部長好 董事長好上一次我請教鄭董事長就有關於詐騙廠商拿政府靠的政商關係拿標案的事情其中受害的行政機關滿多的台鐵是列控4.0上次我有問到答案因為之前說還要研議\n51004\t71807\t然後運安會直接說這個安全管理的核心目的不符台鐵原來事實上要暫緩推動可是上次我問說還在研議答案變成暫緩推動我上次是請教鄭董事長說為什麼你們不直接講實話去年年底的時候\n72728\t95261\t那你們你說你要回去調查那你調查了以後昨天吧應該是昨天我不曉得是傍晚還是晚上終於把可能他知道你今天要來被備選如果報告還沒交來的話我一定會在這邊請教董事長所以同仁很辛苦昨天不曉得下午還是晚上終於把報告趕出來\n96394\t124339\t我看完報告我只想跟董事長分享一個心得董事長其實我相信在各方面的經歷都很豐富中文我相信也是非常的鹹酥董事長可以回去看一下我老實說台鐵給我這份報告我完全看不懂我完全看不懂前面說是後續要研議\n125669\t152558\t後面才說要暫緩推動然後我說就是前後矛盾說明不實但是你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次然後最後的結論是說回應沒有說明不實這個報告董事長你可以回去再看一下因為今天質詢的時間很珍貴我沒有要在這邊跟董事長去爭論\n153638\t179916\t我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續原議那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研究中\n181357\t198300\t那到了6月25號呢我上任以後您在這邊問我是要把這個事情兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告那我那時候就整個去把這個整個資料包括去年12月的這個整個委員會的資料來看來龍去脈我把它弄清楚\n198880\t222873\t我就覺得說這案子不應該再繼續做了所以我就說這時候應該是暫緩推動就是說那時候的整個這案子不再推動是我那時候做的決策決定所以我就那時候跟委員報告所以大概是這樣的一個情況沒有關係啊董事長說明過經過就好了啦因為我之前有講過台鐵某個程度上也是被害人\n224636\t233552\t因為有大官帶著廠商去台鐵要台鐵搞這個事情結果搞了半天了以後浪費國家一堆資源浪費國家一堆資源\n235233\t262444\t那台鐵因此受害確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義除了肥的那個廠商以外浪費國家幾千萬浪費台鐵一堆人力時間物力以外毫無任何意義的計畫董事長你之前的事情我不會歸咎你你做了這個決斷停止就好了那但是\n263786\t288425\t有一些責任我們還是要講清楚那個台鐵董事長可以請回了接下來請部長相同一個二子的廠商標到桃園三行下那當然他是跟晨運汽車合作他是分包商李立但是主要核心的自駕系統是由他負責然後兩個廠商當初一起去投標那投完標了以後果不其然\n290313\t311393\t爛得不得了一樣不能用 一樣不能用那一樣不能用接下來造成桃園三行下整個工程的延誤就已經很嚴重了那除了很嚴重了以外造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛到現在它總共造成的損害超過1億\n314161\t342265\t那這種不能扛納稅人之愷二次的廠商造成三行下工程的延誤我老實說啦納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價了那因此所造成金錢上面的損失當然是要要回來嘛那我一直在追那我追結果淘氣給我的回覆是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式我就搞不懂了有什麼好研議的現在是廠商不賠嗎我有點搞不懂\n342933\t371109\t報告委員 該追溯的部分我們一定會追溯啦但我覺得這件事情第一陶基要先去核算出實際上要追溯的金額現在是1億983萬算出來了那第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式他願不願意賠第二步如果他不願意賠我們當然就要走司法的追溯現在對方願不願意賠這個目前他們還在溝通當中沒有關係喔那個請部長回去指示陶基的順便回覆我好不好第一個\n372009\t397943\t對方要不要賠第二個錢什麼時候要追討回來其實我只要這兩個答案因為我們在國會監督不希望該討回來的錢因為特殊的廠商不討回來這樣子不好把時間講清楚因為我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案一方面拿政府的標案一方面賺政府的錢該賠給政府的不賠我看不懂\n399042\t421297\t我看不懂 我們的政府很慷慨很有錢嗎怎麼會讓他這樣子搞那第三個事情因為這件事情人命關天 給我一分鐘就好了 召委不好意思國道緩撞車事故頻傳我一直都說緩撞車事故頻傳因為那一天我去台積中開會\n422830\t443389\t我從台中開完會回來了以後我就回來台北結果我那天真的還差點在高速公路上發生車禍我不是開玩笑的差一公尺然後我坐在那邊看我想了非常的久這真的是太危險了因為在內側車道突然\n444522\t467973\t前面有一台車切到外側車道突然有一個燈亮了要煞車要切出去切不出去差點就撞上然後結果我才發現說裡面原來有工程車要施工有工程車要施工這是必然會發生的事情那我那天晚上其實回到家以後就是餘悸猶存啊我就一直在思考說\n470306\t490224\t是我的感覺比較特殊還是這種事故發生過很多次所以我就去查了結果我發現兩年間這個移動性內車道施工完全就是我所遇到的狀況來 部長看一下數字他的數字是126件126件現在不是一件不是兩件\n497165\t524692\t不是個位數是126件跟其他型態的一比較內車車道的緩撞車他發生事故非常非常的頻繁非常非常的頻繁那我看到這個數字以後我非常的驚訝因為這個數字對比部長一看就知道了移動性內車道的施工的緩撞車撞上的數字高於其他類型的\n526007\t548060\t其他類型的幾乎都個位數了不起十幾件這個是126件這後面一定有原因所以我又繼續去查了說那有沒有之前類似的是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統沒有認真好好開車所以撞上去但是我看了分析的比較\n549622\t563028\t也不是這個狀況因為有很多他是沒有去用輔助駕車系統也就是真人在開的跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣比例啊非常非常的高在這樣的情況之下顯然\n565140\t579194\t這絕對不是個案這一定是系統性的因素那因此我把相關的規範全部講完了以後全部都看完了以後我最後看到運安會的建議運安會也注意到這件事情了\n580409\t599115\t強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施佈置的方式也就是你們現在佈置的方式我在圖上面顯現出來了 相關的規範我大概都看了但問題是你們現在這個佈置的方式運安會\n600936\t628716\t去參佐外國在內側的車道移動性的車輛施工佈置的方式以後提出具體的建議提出具體的建議說我們目前交通管制設施佈置的方式及施工的警示必須要更周延以利駕駛人用路的安全那這件事情我只想問一件事就是說依照運安會的建議高工局\n629897\t654635\t開始研議改善措施了沒有還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽跟委員報告您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好有類似啦我自己也有開車在高速公路上面我也看到這個狀況同樣的狀況那數據上我們也有研析過確實這個緩撞車我們當時設置緩撞車是為了要保護前面的施工人員因為過去施工結果都撞到緩撞車\n655555\t684575\t對 後來都撞到緩撞車也跟委員報告當然時常有這個事故是非常不好而且必須要避免的所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了因為我自己開車也遇到這個狀況需要多久大概兩三個月之內我跟高工局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善這個部分我們已經在做了就是說緩撞車怎麼讓大家更明顯很遠就看得到說我該停車或該換道目前我自己開車的經驗覺得不夠明顯這個部分我們先來改善\n685636\t705151\t部長我再跟你分享一個經驗今天時間的關係所以我沒有放帶子因為那個行車紀錄器其實影片我截取下來特別是當你前面有一台車的時候那台車發現前面有個緩撞車他趕快切車道就切出去等到他切出去的時候你真的看到的時候真的很有可能會來不及\n706482\t716201\t那不過部長願意承認這個問題的存在也說高工局現在正在研議這個就是我質詢的目的但是我只拜託高工局拜託拜託趕快\n718598\t745144\t真的趕快因為類似的事情我相信每天晚上特別是晚上的時候每天都在發生當中我們不希望造成更多的傷亡我們在幾個月前就已經啟動在討論這件事情了大概再兩三個月我們就會有結論我希望運安會按照外國他們做的方式給的具體的建議該改的規範該改善的部件的方式就要趕快\n746172\t761133\t我不希望啦在這件事情真的完成改善了以後有更多無辜的人因此受到傷亡再拜託交通部再拜託高工局如果可能的話腳步再加快一點這個我們盡快好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩有請交通部部長台鐵的董事長陳部長鄭董事長請委員好\n委員好部長好 董事長好上一次我請教鄭董事長就有關於詐騙廠商拿政府靠的政商關係拿標案的事情其中受害的行政機關滿多的台鐵是列控4.0上次我有問到答案因為之前說還要研議\n然後運安會直接說這個安全管理的核心目的不符台鐵原來事實上要暫緩推動可是上次我問說還在研議答案變成暫緩推動我上次是請教鄭董事長說為什麼你們不直接講實話去年年底的時候\n那你們你說你要回去調查那你調查了以後昨天吧應該是昨天我不曉得是傍晚還是晚上終於把可能他知道你今天要來被備選如果報告還沒交來的話我一定會在這邊請教董事長所以同仁很辛苦昨天不曉得下午還是晚上終於把報告趕出來\n我看完報告我只想跟董事長分享一個心得董事長其實我相信在各方面的經歷都很豐富中文我相信也是非常的鹹酥董事長可以回去看一下我老實說台鐵給我這份報告我完全看不懂我完全看不懂前面說是後續要研議\n後面才說要暫緩推動然後我說就是前後矛盾說明不實但是你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次然後最後的結論是說回應沒有說明不實這個報告董事長你可以回去再看一下因為今天質詢的時間很珍貴我沒有要在這邊跟董事長去爭論\n我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續原議那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研究中\n那到了6月25號呢我上任以後您在這邊問我是要把這個事情兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告那我那時候就整個去把這個整個資料包括去年12月的這個整個委員會的資料來看來龍去脈我把它弄清楚\n我就覺得說這案子不應該再繼續做了所以我就說這時候應該是暫緩推動就是說那時候的整個這案子不再推動是我那時候做的決策決定所以我就那時候跟委員報告所以大概是這樣的一個情況沒有關係啊董事長說明過經過就好了啦因為我之前有講過台鐵某個程度上也是被害人\n因為有大官帶著廠商去台鐵要台鐵搞這個事情結果搞了半天了以後浪費國家一堆資源浪費國家一堆資源\n那台鐵因此受害確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義除了肥的那個廠商以外浪費國家幾千萬浪費台鐵一堆人力時間物力以外毫無任何意義的計畫董事長你之前的事情我不會歸咎你你做了這個決斷停止就好了那但是\n有一些責任我們還是要講清楚那個台鐵董事長可以請回了接下來請部長相同一個二子的廠商標到桃園三行下那當然他是跟晨運汽車合作他是分包商李立但是主要核心的自駕系統是由他負責然後兩個廠商當初一起去投標那投完標了以後果不其然\n爛得不得了一樣不能用 一樣不能用那一樣不能用接下來造成桃園三行下整個工程的延誤就已經很嚴重了那除了很嚴重了以外造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛到現在它總共造成的損害超過1億\n那這種不能扛納稅人之愷二次的廠商造成三行下工程的延誤我老實說啦納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價了那因此所造成金錢上面的損失當然是要要回來嘛那我一直在追那我追結果淘氣給我的回覆是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式我就搞不懂了有什麼好研議的現在是廠商不賠嗎我有點搞不懂\n報告委員 該追溯的部分我們一定會追溯啦但我覺得這件事情第一陶基要先去核算出實際上要追溯的金額現在是1億983萬算出來了那第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式他願不願意賠第二步如果他不願意賠我們當然就要走司法的追溯現在對方願不願意賠這個目前他們還在溝通當中沒有關係喔那個請部長回去指示陶基的順便回覆我好不好第一個\n對方要不要賠第二個錢什麼時候要追討回來其實我只要這兩個答案因為我們在國會監督不希望該討回來的錢因為特殊的廠商不討回來這樣子不好把時間講清楚因為我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案一方面拿政府的標案一方面賺政府的錢該賠給政府的不賠我看不懂\n我看不懂 我們的政府很慷慨很有錢嗎怎麼會讓他這樣子搞那第三個事情因為這件事情人命關天 給我一分鐘就好了 召委不好意思國道緩撞車事故頻傳我一直都說緩撞車事故頻傳因為那一天我去台積中開會\n我從台中開完會回來了以後我就回來台北結果我那天真的還差點在高速公路上發生車禍我不是開玩笑的差一公尺然後我坐在那邊看我想了非常的久這真的是太危險了因為在內側車道突然\n前面有一台車切到外側車道突然有一個燈亮了要煞車要切出去切不出去差點就撞上然後結果我才發現說裡面原來有工程車要施工有工程車要施工這是必然會發生的事情那我那天晚上其實回到家以後就是餘悸猶存啊我就一直在思考說\n是我的感覺比較特殊還是這種事故發生過很多次所以我就去查了結果我發現兩年間這個移動性內車道施工完全就是我所遇到的狀況來 部長看一下數字他的數字是126件126件現在不是一件不是兩件\n不是個位數是126件跟其他型態的一比較內車車道的緩撞車他發生事故非常非常的頻繁非常非常的頻繁那我看到這個數字以後我非常的驚訝因為這個數字對比部長一看就知道了移動性內車道的施工的緩撞車撞上的數字高於其他類型的\n其他類型的幾乎都個位數了不起十幾件這個是126件這後面一定有原因所以我又繼續去查了說那有沒有之前類似的是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統沒有認真好好開車所以撞上去但是我看了分析的比較\n也不是這個狀況因為有很多他是沒有去用輔助駕車系統也就是真人在開的跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣比例啊非常非常的高在這樣的情況之下顯然\n這絕對不是個案這一定是系統性的因素那因此我把相關的規範全部講完了以後全部都看完了以後我最後看到運安會的建議運安會也注意到這件事情了\n強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施佈置的方式也就是你們現在佈置的方式我在圖上面顯現出來了 相關的規範我大概都看了但問題是你們現在這個佈置的方式運安會\n去參佐外國在內側的車道移動性的車輛施工佈置的方式以後提出具體的建議提出具體的建議說我們目前交通管制設施佈置的方式及施工的警示必須要更周延以利駕駛人用路的安全那這件事情我只想問一件事就是說依照運安會的建議高工局\n開始研議改善措施了沒有還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽跟委員報告您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好有類似啦我自己也有開車在高速公路上面我也看到這個狀況同樣的狀況那數據上我們也有研析過確實這個緩撞車我們當時設置緩撞車是為了要保護前面的施工人員因為過去施工結果都撞到緩撞車\n對 後來都撞到緩撞車也跟委員報告當然時常有這個事故是非常不好而且必須要避免的所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了因為我自己開車也遇到這個狀況需要多久大概兩三個月之內我跟高工局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善這個部分我們已經在做了就是說緩撞車怎麼讓大家更明顯很遠就看得到說我該停車或該換道目前我自己開車的經驗覺得不夠明顯這個部分我們先來改善\n部長我再跟你分享一個經驗今天時間的關係所以我沒有放帶子因為那個行車紀錄器其實影片我截取下來特別是當你前面有一台車的時候那台車發現前面有個緩撞車他趕快切車道就切出去等到他切出去的時候你真的看到的時候真的很有可能會來不及\n那不過部長願意承認這個問題的存在也說高工局現在正在研議這個就是我質詢的目的但是我只拜託高工局拜託拜託趕快\n真的趕快因為類似的事情我相信每天晚上特別是晚上的時候每天都在發生當中我們不希望造成更多的傷亡我們在幾個月前就已經啟動在討論這件事情了大概再兩三個月我們就會有結論我希望運安會按照外國他們做的方式給的具體的建議該改的規範該改善的部件的方式就要趕快\n我不希望啦在這件事情真的完成改善了以後有更多無辜的人因此受到傷亡再拜託交通部再拜託高工局如果可能的話腳步再加快一點這個我們盡快好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.792 --> 00:08.756\n謝謝主席麻煩有請交通部部長台鐵的董事長陳部長鄭董事長請委員好\n\n00:24.714 --> 00:48.219\n委員好部長好董事長好上一次我請教鄭董事長就有關於詐騙廠商拿政府靠的政商關係拿標案的事情其中受害的行政機關滿多的台鐵是列控4.0上次我有問到答案因為之前說還要研議\n\n00:51.004 --> 01:11.807\n然後運安會直接說這個安全管理的核心目的不符台鐵原來事實上要暫緩推動可是上次我問說還在研議答案變成暫緩推動我上次是請教鄭董事長說為什麼你們不直接講實話去年年底的時候\n\n01:12.728 --> 01:35.261\n那你們你說你要回去調查那你調查了以後昨天吧應該是昨天我不曉得是傍晚還是晚上終於把可能他知道你今天要來被備選如果報告還沒交來的話我一定會在這邊請教董事長所以同仁很辛苦昨天不曉得下午還是晚上終於把報告趕出來\n\n01:36.394 --> 02:04.339\n我看完報告我只想跟董事長分享一個心得董事長其實我相信在各方面的經歷都很豐富中文我相信也是非常的鹹酥董事長可以回去看一下我老實說台鐵給我這份報告我完全看不懂我完全看不懂前面說是後續要研議\n\n02:05.669 --> 02:32.558\n後面才說要暫緩推動然後我說就是前後矛盾說明不實但是你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次然後最後的結論是說回應沒有說明不實這個報告董事長你可以回去再看一下因為今天質詢的時間很珍貴我沒有要在這邊跟董事長去爭論\n\n02:33.638 --> 02:59.916\n我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續原議那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研究中\n\n03:01.357 --> 03:18.300\n那到了6月25號呢我上任以後您在這邊問我是要把這個事情兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告那我那時候就整個去把這個整個資料包括去年12月的這個整個委員會的資料來看來龍去脈我把它弄清楚\n\n03:18.880 --> 03:42.873\n我就覺得說這案子不應該再繼續做了所以我就說這時候應該是暫緩推動就是說那時候的整個這案子不再推動是我那時候做的決策決定所以我就那時候跟委員報告所以大概是這樣的一個情況沒有關係啊董事長說明過經過就好了啦因為我之前有講過台鐵某個程度上也是被害人\n\n03:44.636 --> 03:53.552\n因為有大官帶著廠商去台鐵要台鐵搞這個事情結果搞了半天了以後浪費國家一堆資源浪費國家一堆資源\n\n03:55.233 --> 04:22.444\n那台鐵因此受害確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義除了肥的那個廠商以外浪費國家幾千萬浪費台鐵一堆人力時間物力以外毫無任何意義的計畫董事長你之前的事情我不會歸咎你你做了這個決斷停止就好了那但是\n\n04:23.786 --> 04:48.425\n有一些責任我們還是要講清楚那個台鐵董事長可以請回了接下來請部長相同一個二子的廠商標到桃園三行下那當然他是跟晨運汽車合作他是分包商李立但是主要核心的自駕系統是由他負責然後兩個廠商當初一起去投標那投完標了以後果不其然\n\n04:50.313 --> 05:11.393\n爛得不得了一樣不能用一樣不能用那一樣不能用接下來造成桃園三行下整個工程的延誤就已經很嚴重了那除了很嚴重了以外造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛到現在它總共造成的損害超過1億\n\n05:14.161 --> 05:42.265\n那這種不能扛納稅人之愷二次的廠商造成三行下工程的延誤我老實說啦納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價了那因此所造成金錢上面的損失當然是要要回來嘛那我一直在追那我追結果淘氣給我的回覆是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式我就搞不懂了有什麼好研議的現在是廠商不賠嗎我有點搞不懂\n\n05:42.933 --> 06:11.109\n報告委員該追溯的部分我們一定會追溯啦但我覺得這件事情第一陶基要先去核算出實際上要追溯的金額現在是1億983萬算出來了那第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式他願不願意賠第二步如果他不願意賠我們當然就要走司法的追溯現在對方願不願意賠這個目前他們還在溝通當中沒有關係喔那個請部長回去指示陶基的順便回覆我好不好第一個\n\n06:12.009 --> 06:37.943\n對方要不要賠第二個錢什麼時候要追討回來其實我只要這兩個答案因為我們在國會監督不希望該討回來的錢因為特殊的廠商不討回來這樣子不好把時間講清楚因為我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案一方面拿政府的標案一方面賺政府的錢該賠給政府的不賠我看不懂\n\n06:39.042 --> 07:01.297\n我看不懂我們的政府很慷慨很有錢嗎怎麼會讓他這樣子搞那第三個事情因為這件事情人命關天給我一分鐘就好了召委不好意思國道緩撞車事故頻傳我一直都說緩撞車事故頻傳因為那一天我去台積中開會\n\n07:02.830 --> 07:23.389\n我從台中開完會回來了以後我就回來台北結果我那天真的還差點在高速公路上發生車禍我不是開玩笑的差一公尺然後我坐在那邊看我想了非常的久這真的是太危險了因為在內側車道突然\n\n07:24.522 --> 07:47.973\n前面有一台車切到外側車道突然有一個燈亮了要煞車要切出去切不出去差點就撞上然後結果我才發現說裡面原來有工程車要施工有工程車要施工這是必然會發生的事情那我那天晚上其實回到家以後就是餘悸猶存啊我就一直在思考說\n\n07:50.306 --> 08:10.224\n是我的感覺比較特殊還是這種事故發生過很多次所以我就去查了結果我發現兩年間這個移動性內車道施工完全就是我所遇到的狀況來部長看一下數字他的數字是126件126件現在不是一件不是兩件\n\n08:17.165 --> 08:44.692\n不是個位數是126件跟其他型態的一比較內車車道的緩撞車他發生事故非常非常的頻繁非常非常的頻繁那我看到這個數字以後我非常的驚訝因為這個數字對比部長一看就知道了移動性內車道的施工的緩撞車撞上的數字高於其他類型的\n\n08:46.007 --> 09:08.060\n其他類型的幾乎都個位數了不起十幾件這個是126件這後面一定有原因所以我又繼續去查了說那有沒有之前類似的是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統沒有認真好好開車所以撞上去但是我看了分析的比較\n\n09:09.622 --> 09:23.028\n也不是這個狀況因為有很多他是沒有去用輔助駕車系統也就是真人在開的跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣比例啊非常非常的高在這樣的情況之下顯然\n\n09:25.140 --> 09:39.194\n這絕對不是個案這一定是系統性的因素那因此我把相關的規範全部講完了以後全部都看完了以後我最後看到運安會的建議運安會也注意到這件事情了\n\n09:40.409 --> 09:59.115\n強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施佈置的方式也就是你們現在佈置的方式我在圖上面顯現出來了相關的規範我大概都看了但問題是你們現在這個佈置的方式運安會\n\n10:00.936 --> 10:28.716\n去參佐外國在內側的車道移動性的車輛施工佈置的方式以後提出具體的建議提出具體的建議說我們目前交通管制設施佈置的方式及施工的警示必須要更周延以利駕駛人用路的安全那這件事情我只想問一件事就是說依照運安會的建議高工局\n\n10:29.897 --> 10:54.635\n開始研議改善措施了沒有還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽跟委員報告您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好有類似啦我自己也有開車在高速公路上面我也看到這個狀況同樣的狀況那數據上我們也有研析過確實這個緩撞車我們當時設置緩撞車是為了要保護前面的施工人員因為過去施工結果都撞到緩撞車\n\n10:55.555 --> 11:24.575\n對後來都撞到緩撞車也跟委員報告當然時常有這個事故是非常不好而且必須要避免的所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了因為我自己開車也遇到這個狀況需要多久大概兩三個月之內我跟高工局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善這個部分我們已經在做了就是說緩撞車怎麼讓大家更明顯很遠就看得到說我該停車或該換道目前我自己開車的經驗覺得不夠明顯這個部分我們先來改善\n\n11:25.636 --> 11:45.151\n部長我再跟你分享一個經驗今天時間的關係所以我沒有放帶子因為那個行車紀錄器其實影片我截取下來特別是當你前面有一台車的時候那台車發現前面有個緩撞車他趕快切車道就切出去等到他切出去的時候你真的看到的時候真的很有可能會來不及\n\n11:46.482 --> 11:56.201\n那不過部長願意承認這個問題的存在也說高工局現在正在研議這個就是我質詢的目的但是我只拜託高工局拜託拜託趕快\n\n11:58.598 --> 12:25.144\n真的趕快因為類似的事情我相信每天晚上特別是晚上的時候每天都在發生當中我們不希望造成更多的傷亡我們在幾個月前就已經啟動在討論這件事情了大概再兩三個月我們就會有結論我希望運安會按照外國他們做的方式給的具體的建議該改的規範該改善的部件的方式就要趕快\n\n12:26.172 --> 12:41.133\n我不希望啦在這件事情真的完成改善了以後有更多無辜的人因此受到傷亡再拜託交通部再拜託高工局如果可能的話腳步再加快一點這個我們盡快好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.792,"end":8.756,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請交通部部長台鐵的董事長陳部長鄭董事長請委員好"},{"start":24.714,"end":48.219,"text":"委員好部長好 董事長好上一次我請教鄭董事長就有關於詐騙廠商拿政府靠的政商關係拿標案的事情其中受害的行政機關滿多的台鐵是列控4.0上次我有問到答案因為之前說還要研議"},{"start":51.004,"end":71.807,"text":"然後運安會直接說這個安全管理的核心目的不符台鐵原來事實上要暫緩推動可是上次我問說還在研議答案變成暫緩推動我上次是請教鄭董事長說為什麼你們不直接講實話去年年底的時候"},{"start":72.728,"end":95.261,"text":"那你們你說你要回去調查那你調查了以後昨天吧應該是昨天我不曉得是傍晚還是晚上終於把可能他知道你今天要來被備選如果報告還沒交來的話我一定會在這邊請教董事長所以同仁很辛苦昨天不曉得下午還是晚上終於把報告趕出來"},{"start":96.394,"end":124.339,"text":"我看完報告我只想跟董事長分享一個心得董事長其實我相信在各方面的經歷都很豐富中文我相信也是非常的鹹酥董事長可以回去看一下我老實說台鐵給我這份報告我完全看不懂我完全看不懂前面說是後續要研議"},{"start":125.669,"end":152.558,"text":"後面才說要暫緩推動然後我說就是前後矛盾說明不實但是你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次然後最後的結論是說回應沒有說明不實這個報告董事長你可以回去再看一下因為今天質詢的時間很珍貴我沒有要在這邊跟董事長去爭論"},{"start":153.638,"end":179.916,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個來由就是說其實沒錯在113年12月的時候這個安全委員會是決議說按照委員的意見延續原議那麼到了今年4月的時候委員在質詢台鐵的時候那時候的代理董事長就是伍聖元伍次長那他說那時候這個案子還是在研究中"},{"start":181.357,"end":198.3,"text":"那到了6月25號呢我上任以後您在這邊問我是要把這個事情兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告那我那時候就整個去把這個整個資料包括去年12月的這個整個委員會的資料來看來龍去脈我把它弄清楚"},{"start":198.88,"end":222.873,"text":"我就覺得說這案子不應該再繼續做了所以我就說這時候應該是暫緩推動就是說那時候的整個這案子不再推動是我那時候做的決策決定所以我就那時候跟委員報告所以大概是這樣的一個情況沒有關係啊董事長說明過經過就好了啦因為我之前有講過台鐵某個程度上也是被害人"},{"start":224.636,"end":233.552,"text":"因為有大官帶著廠商去台鐵要台鐵搞這個事情結果搞了半天了以後浪費國家一堆資源浪費國家一堆資源"},{"start":235.233,"end":262.444,"text":"那台鐵因此受害確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義除了肥的那個廠商以外浪費國家幾千萬浪費台鐵一堆人力時間物力以外毫無任何意義的計畫董事長你之前的事情我不會歸咎你你做了這個決斷停止就好了那但是"},{"start":263.786,"end":288.425,"text":"有一些責任我們還是要講清楚那個台鐵董事長可以請回了接下來請部長相同一個二子的廠商標到桃園三行下那當然他是跟晨運汽車合作他是分包商李立但是主要核心的自駕系統是由他負責然後兩個廠商當初一起去投標那投完標了以後果不其然"},{"start":290.313,"end":311.393,"text":"爛得不得了一樣不能用 一樣不能用那一樣不能用接下來造成桃園三行下整個工程的延誤就已經很嚴重了那除了很嚴重了以外造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛到現在它總共造成的損害超過1億"},{"start":314.161,"end":342.265,"text":"那這種不能扛納稅人之愷二次的廠商造成三行下工程的延誤我老實說啦納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價了那因此所造成金錢上面的損失當然是要要回來嘛那我一直在追那我追結果淘氣給我的回覆是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式我就搞不懂了有什麼好研議的現在是廠商不賠嗎我有點搞不懂"},{"start":342.933,"end":371.109,"text":"報告委員 該追溯的部分我們一定會追溯啦但我覺得這件事情第一陶基要先去核算出實際上要追溯的金額現在是1億983萬算出來了那第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式他願不願意賠第二步如果他不願意賠我們當然就要走司法的追溯現在對方願不願意賠這個目前他們還在溝通當中沒有關係喔那個請部長回去指示陶基的順便回覆我好不好第一個"},{"start":372.009,"end":397.943,"text":"對方要不要賠第二個錢什麼時候要追討回來其實我只要這兩個答案因為我們在國會監督不希望該討回來的錢因為特殊的廠商不討回來這樣子不好把時間講清楚因為我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案一方面拿政府的標案一方面賺政府的錢該賠給政府的不賠我看不懂"},{"start":399.042,"end":421.297,"text":"我看不懂 我們的政府很慷慨很有錢嗎怎麼會讓他這樣子搞那第三個事情因為這件事情人命關天 給我一分鐘就好了 召委不好意思國道緩撞車事故頻傳我一直都說緩撞車事故頻傳因為那一天我去台積中開會"},{"start":422.83,"end":443.389,"text":"我從台中開完會回來了以後我就回來台北結果我那天真的還差點在高速公路上發生車禍我不是開玩笑的差一公尺然後我坐在那邊看我想了非常的久這真的是太危險了因為在內側車道突然"},{"start":444.522,"end":467.973,"text":"前面有一台車切到外側車道突然有一個燈亮了要煞車要切出去切不出去差點就撞上然後結果我才發現說裡面原來有工程車要施工有工程車要施工這是必然會發生的事情那我那天晚上其實回到家以後就是餘悸猶存啊我就一直在思考說"},{"start":470.306,"end":490.224,"text":"是我的感覺比較特殊還是這種事故發生過很多次所以我就去查了結果我發現兩年間這個移動性內車道施工完全就是我所遇到的狀況來 部長看一下數字他的數字是126件126件現在不是一件不是兩件"},{"start":497.165,"end":524.692,"text":"不是個位數是126件跟其他型態的一比較內車車道的緩撞車他發生事故非常非常的頻繁非常非常的頻繁那我看到這個數字以後我非常的驚訝因為這個數字對比部長一看就知道了移動性內車道的施工的緩撞車撞上的數字高於其他類型的"},{"start":526.007,"end":548.06,"text":"其他類型的幾乎都個位數了不起十幾件這個是126件這後面一定有原因所以我又繼續去查了說那有沒有之前類似的是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統沒有認真好好開車所以撞上去但是我看了分析的比較"},{"start":549.622,"end":563.028,"text":"也不是這個狀況因為有很多他是沒有去用輔助駕車系統也就是真人在開的跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣比例啊非常非常的高在這樣的情況之下顯然"},{"start":565.14,"end":579.194,"text":"這絕對不是個案這一定是系統性的因素那因此我把相關的規範全部講完了以後全部都看完了以後我最後看到運安會的建議運安會也注意到這件事情了"},{"start":580.409,"end":599.115,"text":"強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施佈置的方式也就是你們現在佈置的方式我在圖上面顯現出來了 相關的規範我大概都看了但問題是你們現在這個佈置的方式運安會"},{"start":600.936,"end":628.716,"text":"去參佐外國在內側的車道移動性的車輛施工佈置的方式以後提出具體的建議提出具體的建議說我們目前交通管制設施佈置的方式及施工的警示必須要更周延以利駕駛人用路的安全那這件事情我只想問一件事就是說依照運安會的建議高工局"},{"start":629.897,"end":654.635,"text":"開始研議改善措施了沒有還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽跟委員報告您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好有類似啦我自己也有開車在高速公路上面我也看到這個狀況同樣的狀況那數據上我們也有研析過確實這個緩撞車我們當時設置緩撞車是為了要保護前面的施工人員因為過去施工結果都撞到緩撞車"},{"start":655.555,"end":684.575,"text":"對 後來都撞到緩撞車也跟委員報告當然時常有這個事故是非常不好而且必須要避免的所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了因為我自己開車也遇到這個狀況需要多久大概兩三個月之內我跟高工局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善這個部分我們已經在做了就是說緩撞車怎麼讓大家更明顯很遠就看得到說我該停車或該換道目前我自己開車的經驗覺得不夠明顯這個部分我們先來改善"},{"start":685.636,"end":705.151,"text":"部長我再跟你分享一個經驗今天時間的關係所以我沒有放帶子因為那個行車紀錄器其實影片我截取下來特別是當你前面有一台車的時候那台車發現前面有個緩撞車他趕快切車道就切出去等到他切出去的時候你真的看到的時候真的很有可能會來不及"},{"start":706.482,"end":716.201,"text":"那不過部長願意承認這個問題的存在也說高工局現在正在研議這個就是我質詢的目的但是我只拜託高工局拜託拜託趕快"},{"start":718.598,"end":745.144,"text":"真的趕快因為類似的事情我相信每天晚上特別是晚上的時候每天都在發生當中我們不希望造成更多的傷亡我們在幾個月前就已經啟動在討論這件事情了大概再兩三個月我們就會有結論我希望運安會按照外國他們做的方式給的具體的建議該改的規範該改善的部件的方式就要趕快"},{"start":746.172,"end":761.133,"text":"我不希望啦在這件事情真的完成改善了以後有更多無辜的人因此受到傷亡再拜託交通部再拜託高工局如果可能的話腳步再加快一點這個我們盡快好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":951,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時11分）謝謝主席。有請交通部部長及臺鐵董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、鄭董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，董事長好。上一次我請教鄭董事長有關於詐騙廠商靠著政商關係拿標案的事情，受害的行政機關滿多的，涉及臺鐵的是「列控4.0」，我上次有問到答案，之前說還要研議，然後運安會直接說它與安全管理的核心目的不符，臺鐵原來要暫緩推動，可是上一次我問時答說還在研議，變成暫緩推動。我上一次是在去年年底請教鄭董事長，我問為什麼不直接講實話，你說你要回去調查，你調查了以後，昨天傍晚或晚上終於把報告交來，可能是臺鐵同仁知道你今天要來這邊備詢，如果報告還沒交來的話，我一定會在這邊請教董事長，所以同仁很辛苦，昨天下午或晚上終於把報告趕出來。我看完報告，我只想跟董事長分享一個心得。董事長，我相信你在各方面的經歷都很豐富，中文也是非常嫻熟，董事長，你可以回去看一下，我老實說，臺鐵給我的這份報告，我完全看不懂，我完全看不懂，前面說後續要研議，後面說要暫緩推動，所以我說就是前後矛盾，說明不實，你們把之前講過的東西全部抄一次，然後最後的結論是沒有說明不實。董事長，這個報告你可以回去再看一下，因為我今天質詢的時間很珍貴，我沒有要在這邊跟董事長爭論。"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告一下這個來由，沒錯，在113年12月的時候，安全委員會決議，按照委員的意見做後續研議，到了今年4月委員在質詢臺鐵的時候，那時候的代理董事長就是伍勝園次長，這個案子還是在研議中、研究中。到了6月25日我上任以後，你在這邊問我，要把這個事情在兩個月裡面調查清楚做一個報告，我那時候就看整個資料，包括把去年12月整個委員會的資料都拿來看，把來龍去脈弄清楚，我覺得這個案子不應該再繼續做，所以我就說這時候應該暫緩推動，整個案子不再推動，是我那時候做的決定，所以跟委員報告，大概是這樣的一個情況。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。董事長，說明經過就好了，因為我之前有講過，臺鐵在某個程度上也是被害人，因為有大官帶著廠商去臺鐵，要臺鐵搞這個事情，結果搞了半天以後，浪費國家一堆資源，臺鐵也因此受害，確定沒有再投入無謂的資源在這個根本毫無意義的計畫上就好，這個計畫除了肥了廠商以外，還浪費國家幾千萬，浪費臺鐵一堆人力、時間、物力，是毫無任何意義的計畫。董事長，之前的事情，我不會歸咎你，你做了這個決斷，停止就好了，但是有一些責任我們還是要講清楚。臺鐵董事長可以請回了。","接下來請教部長，相同的一個惡質廠商標到桃園第三航廈的工程，它跟成運汽車合作，分包商是理立，但是主要核心的自駕系統是由成運汽車負責，兩個廠商當初一起去投標，投完標了以後，果不其然，爛得不得了，一樣不能用，造成桃園機場第三航廈整個工程延誤就已經很嚴重了，除了延誤很嚴重以外，造成國家的損失總是要賠嘛，到現在，造成的損害總共超過一億，這不能慷納稅人之慨，惡質的廠商造成第三航廈工程的延誤，老實說，納稅人已經付了很慘痛的代價，因此，所造成的金錢損失當然是要要回來。"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：我一直在追查，桃機給我的回復是說他們還在研議後續處理的方式，我就搞不懂了，有什麼好研議的，現在是廠商不賠嗎？我有點搞不懂。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，該追訴的部分，我們一定會追訴，但我覺得這件事情，第一，桃機要先去核算出實際上損失的金額，現在是1億983萬。"],["黃委員國昌：算出來了。"],["陳部長世凱：第一步當然要先跟對方用溝通的方式談它願不願意賠。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳部長世凱：第二步，如果它不願意賠，我們當然就要走司法的追訴。"],["黃委員國昌：現在對方願不願意賠？"],["陳部長世凱：目前他們還在溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，請部長回去以後指示桃機，書面回復我，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，對方要不要賠？第二個，錢什麼時候要追討回來？其實我只要這兩個答案，我們在國會監督，不希望該討回來的錢，因為特殊的廠商而不討回來，這樣子不好。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：把時間講清楚，我看這家公司繼續在拿政府的標案，一方面拿政府的標案，一方面賺政府的錢，該賠給政府的不賠，我看不懂。我們的政府很慷慨、很有錢嗎？怎麼會讓它這樣子搞？","第三個事情，因為這件事情人命關天，所以給我1分鐘就好了，召委，不好意思。國道緩撞車事故頻傳，我為什麼說緩撞車事故頻傳？因為那一天我去臺中開會，開完會以後，我就回來臺北，結果我那天真的差一點在高速公路上發生車禍，我不是開玩笑的，只差一公尺，然後我坐在那邊看，想了非常久，這真的是太危險了，因為內側的車道，突然前面有一台車切到外側車道，突然有一個燈亮了，前面的車切出去，我煞車也要切出去，切不出去，差點就撞上，我才發現裡面原來有工程車要施工，有工程車要施工是必然會發生的事情。我那天晚上回到家以後，餘悸猶存，我就一直在思考是我的感覺比較特殊，還是這種事故發生過很多次，所以我就去查了，結果我發現這種移動性內車道施工的事故完全就是我所遇到的狀況。部長，看一下數字，兩年間有126件，現在不是1件，不是2件，不是個位數，是126件，跟其他型態的一比較，內側車道的緩撞車發生事故非常非常頻繁，我看到這個數字，非常驚訝，因為這個數字一對比，一看就知道了，移動性內車道施工的緩撞車被車撞上的數字高於其他類型，其他類型的事故幾乎都是個位數，了不起十幾件，這個是126件，這後面一定有原因，所以我又繼續去查之前有沒有類似的，是不是因為他們開ADAS輔助駕駛的系統，沒有認真好好開車，所以才會撞上去？但是我看了分析的比較，也不是這個狀況，因為有很多駕駛沒有用輔助駕車系統，是真人在開的，跟我那天晚上遇到的狀況一模一樣，比例非常非常高，在這樣的情況之下，顯然這絕對不是個案，這一定是系統性的因素。","我把相關的規範全部都看完了以後，最後看到運安會的建議，運安會也注意到這件事情，提出建議強化移動性內側車道施工之交通管制設施布設方式。你們現在布置的方式，我在圖上面顯現出來了，相關的規範我大概都看了，但問題是，運安會參酌外國在內側車道布置移動性車輛施工的方式以後，提出具體的建議，說我們目前交通管制設施布置的方式及施工的警示必須更周延，以利駕駛人用路的安全。我只想問一件事，依照運安會的建議，高公局開始研議改善措施了沒有？還是覺得運安會的建議不要聽？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，您的開車經驗跟我開車經驗剛好類似，我自己也有開車，在高速公路上面，我也看到同樣的狀況，數據上我們也有研析過，我們當時設置緩撞車，是為了要保護前面的施工人員，因為過去施工人員……"],["黃委員國昌：結果都撞到緩撞車。"],["陳部長世凱：對，後來又撞到緩撞車。也跟委員報告，時常有這種事故是非常不好的，而且是必須要避免的，所以修正的部分我們已經在研議了，我自己開車也遇到這個狀況。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳部長世凱：大概兩、三個月之內，我跟高公局局長也討論過該怎麼樣去做改善，這個部分我們已經在做了，就是說怎麼讓緩撞車更明顯，讓大家很遠就看得到，決定該停車或該換道，目前以我自己開車的經驗，我覺得緩撞車不夠明顯，這個部分我們先來改善。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我跟你分享一個經驗，因為時間的關係，所以我沒有放影片，那天的行車記錄器影片我擷取下來了，特別是當前面有一台車的時候，那台車駕駛發現前面有台緩撞車，他就會趕快切車道切出去，等到他切出去，在他後面的你看到緩撞車的時候，真的很有可能會來不及。不過，部長願意承認這個問題的存在，也說高公局現在正在研議，這個就是我質詢的目的，但是我拜託高公局，拜託、拜託，趕快，真的趕快。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我也覺得這個問題很重要。"],["黃委員國昌：類似的事情，我相信每天都在發生，特別是晚上，我不希望造成更多的傷亡。"],["陳部長世凱：我們在幾個月前就已經啟動，在討論這件事情了，大概再兩、三個月我們就會有結論。"],["黃委員國昌：好。運安會按照外國的方式給了具體的建議，該改的規範，該改善的布建方式，就要趕快做，我不希望這件事情在完成改善之前有更多無辜的人因此傷亡，再拜託交通部，再拜託高公局，如果可能的話，腳步再加快一點。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們儘快。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","謝龍介","邱若華","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","游顥","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長及勞動部就「臺鐵各地車站旅客安全措\n施檢討、改善員工職場安全及勞動條件」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通\n部鐵道局局長就「全台軌道建設進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00002"}}}