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\"text\": \"107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 240.086, \"end\": 240.226, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 240.226, \"end\": 240.367, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 240.367, \"end\": 240.727, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 240.727, \"end\": 240.847, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 240.847, \"end\": 241.028, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 241.028, \"end\": 241.248, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 241.248, \"end\": 241.388, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 241.388, \"end\": 241.91, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 241.91, \"end\": 243.292, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 243.292, \"end\": 243.493, \"score\": 0.805}, 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\"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 638.547, \"end\": 638.627, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 638.627, \"end\": 638.748, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 638.748, \"end\": 638.908, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 638.908, \"end\": 638.988, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 638.988, \"end\": 639.128, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 639.128, \"end\": 639.188, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 639.188, \"end\": 639.208, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 639.208, \"end\": 639.348, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"油\", \"start\": 639.348, \"end\": 639.368, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,265 --> 00:00:14,688\n謝謝主席我們農業部房檢署杜署長官務署彭署長還有海委會管組委好請移上官員列席大家都辛苦委員好來我先問一下杜署長杜署長你今天好像很可憐喔這個要講一講公道話希望大家共同面對\n\n2\n00:00:32,950 --> 00:01:00,948\n防疫的重大挑戰結果好像不分朝野都要砲轟你一下對不對這個我希望你一本初衷啦其實你第一個回答書下會委員質疑回答本來就很好嘛就四平八穩的講大家都有一定的工作跟分工那大家都很努力那這是中央地方共同的責任剛剛很多民進黨的委員都提說這個是甚至都要逼你講出就是台中市政府防疫不力那這都很正常政治口水嘛但是我要問的是非洲豬瘟它會平白無故在台灣境內產生嗎\n\n3\n00:01:02,813 --> 00:01:20,913\n不會嘛他一定是境外移入那以署長的了解境外移入有哪幾種渠道就是他怎麼進來的我們也有在研析過當然從他的管道上來講當然機場會是一個港口也是一個那包括到說我們現在的\n\n4\n00:01:22,148 --> 00:01:46,382\n移工外勞那這些等等還有產品署長你聽一聽第一個叫旅客夾帶就不管是坐船的坐飛機的等等偷偷帶進來的嘛叫旅客夾帶第二個就是所謂的走私嘛這漁船的走私有的沒的夾也是一種夾帶的行為但它量比較大對不對也是一種走私第三種叫郵寄嘛對不對大概就是這三種有沒有脫離這三種的範疇\n\n5\n00:01:49,310 --> 00:02:08,983\n大體上應該不拖這樣的範疇如果有你可以補充沒有關係那我剛剛也聽了很多委員在問包含馬市長講旅客夾帶我想我們自己有時候常出國回來這該到位的也都有到位啦我們該查都有查都有過X光機這我想大家都有經驗所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶我請教一下館主委\n\n6\n00:02:09,997 --> 00:02:26,242\n你剛剛講的都問到你的時候你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗我想這個很OK嘛大家都希望從嚴處理因為那個死在那個地方你當然要檢驗嘛對不對但問題是海巡的另外一個重要的任務也是查其走私嘛那最近這段時間有沒有查其到豬肉走私的狀況有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢\n\n7\n00:02:27,284 --> 00:02:48,731\n農漁產品比較多大概4萬多公斤的農漁產品的走私我們今天就討論豬肉而已豬肉的部分我們沒有4萬多公噸的農漁產品然後沒有查到任何的豬肉公斤不好意思公斤修正一下但沒有查到走私的豬肉我們過去曾經有查到的是譬如說毛肚\n\n8\n00:02:49,151 --> 00:03:05,922\n整船整船的忙碌我只問主委一個牛肉的製品是比較多尤其是牛雜你們都已經盡了最大的努力我不會否定海軍同仁的辛苦但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎\n\n9\n00:03:07,054 --> 00:03:25,031\n委員這個問題其實大家都知道答案我們盡全力你全力以赴但是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能因為這東西實在是太你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把我想每一個管道的問題是一樣每一個管道的問題是一樣我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛好不好這我們希望海運署就加強把控啦尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的這個是最上游\n\n10\n00:03:30,055 --> 00:03:58,225\n那基本上管制到豬場的那個部分的管理恐怕也是最關鍵但是我們每個層面我們都盡全力把它做到最好各自其職你就收好你的海上避免走私豬肉這本期要做一下提醒好我們再回到杜署長第三個然後有關務署一起好不好這也是本期今天要特別去提醒的其實就是郵寄嘛這一段時間我們都委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西這個我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了這個中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入台灣107年\n\n11\n00:04:00,086 --> 00:04:08,302\n107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼\n\n12\n00:04:10,389 --> 00:04:33,265\n目前我們只要是有豬肉的製品一定是20萬起跳20萬起跳這叫夾帶入境嘛就機場沒看那宣導影片也拍很多是不是講說只要豬肉被抓到至少罰20萬最高罰100萬嘛對不對這叫夾帶入境好郵寄入境的罰則是什麼郵寄入境的部分也是一樣對只要豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳一定會罰嗎真的因為這個也牽扯到說\n\n13\n00:04:39,704 --> 00:04:49,134\n整個追查的部分是有比較困難比較困難的地方在哪裡來我今天就要問這個今天我們要談制度補破網我今天就這一件事而已\n\n14\n00:04:51,314 --> 00:05:17,852\n是跟委員報告因為這個郵包的部分他這個寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人其實在全球都是一樣常常是對不起來的所以我們行政調查的案件到最後會承擔到裁罰的案件其實相對的是比較少的好講得真好這個郵遞寄送的輸入狀況從有非洲族恩到現在由你頒布重罰的條款到現在你抓到多少案子裁罰了多少人有沒有數據做一下整理\n\n15\n00:05:22,102 --> 00:05:47,603\n是郭委員報告齁這個郵包的部分我們攔截到就是一隻豬肉產品然後被我們攔下來的被海關攔下來移送到房間數的大約有1000案但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個就是9個案件人1000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰很好這就是我今天重點來脫影片秀出來這個動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令如果本席沒有了解錯誤\n\n16\n00:05:48,379 --> 00:06:11,298\n現在狀況是這樣旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬但是問題是你郵寄寄送書我們先不要講說你追溯溯源很難罰你竟然還有後門條款這個第四點你看看頭裡面這樣違反本公告者由輸出入動物檢疫機關一動物傳染病防治條例四三條第八款規定採取收件人但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者不予處罰\n\n17\n00:06:12,671 --> 00:06:14,632\n報告委員物跟人要分開處理物一千件全部燒毀\n\n18\n00:06:27,935 --> 00:06:31,659\n人的處罰因為還是要有事證可以追查得到所以這個地方是有他的困難度但物是全部都燒毀那當然你物本來就都要燒毀嘛所以沒有一件事流入但是問題是這樣嘛我們為什麼要罰比如夾帶入侵要罰20萬其實叫嚇阻嘛\n\n19\n00:06:47,814 --> 00:07:14,932\n也就是說我不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情嘛那同樣今天一樣物物當然抓到就沒收嘛任何夾帶走私抓到反而就要沒收反而銷毀對不對那你如果不重罰你不加大裁罰力道然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話那不是大家還是會想說我試一下嗎反正了不起要嘛他抓不到我他抓到我他也不見得證明我可以故意所以我就記吧那是不是包裹就多了包裹多了你邊境檢驗查核的壓力就大了嘛\n\n20\n00:07:18,214 --> 00:07:28,276\n我們現在就針對委員所講國際郵包或者是快遞這個部分那也是關務署在檢視整個系統從登記來來來關務署你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉其實就這個問題嘛我們今天在思考制度上要什麼補破網要加大裁判力道要把它變嚴格其實就這個問題你覺得應該把它廢掉報告委員這不是我們關務署的權責廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛\n\n21\n00:07:47,811 --> 00:08:16,429\n我們都是遵守你們裡面內部因為都不是你們的權責你們也不會討論這個事所以要到立法院討論嘛對不對你們都在的時候我們當場講一講對不對跟委員包括我們在郵包那邊喔今年都已經查獲到286件了是嘛還是很多對不對那如果廢掉然後變成說我只要一抓到相對來講我比較容易裁罰成功會不會有一點嚇阻效果當然重罰齁有嚇阻的效果啦但是就是說重罰你還是要有證據證明說他是故意走私這樣的一個行為\n\n22\n00:08:17,352 --> 00:08:36,251\n不是我現在這樣講非故意拿掉我不管你故不故意啊你只要進來我就是罰嘛對不對你現在就說因為我還我多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意我就更難罰嘛我現在把這條款拿掉錢包的部分喔剛剛提到的就是說常常這個收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他他可能都不知道所以要罰到\n\n23\n00:08:37,730 --> 00:09:02,142\n這個收件人是有他的困難因為他可能是無故意或過失署長我就只問你把這個標準往上提讓他變嚴格即便很有可能啊會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺對不對是但是我們在防疫的時候現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嗎是這樣子對你降低你邊境的檢驗的那個壓力有沒有幫助嗎任何的重罰對我們都有幫助很好謝謝來這個農業部要不要考慮把它廢除\n\n24\n00:09:08,414 --> 00:09:22,045\n我想這個有不足的地方或者是應該修法的地方這個我們會著手來處理但我在這裡還是要說明說這一千的違規的物品都銷毀了我知道我知道但我現在想是源頭嘛對人的處罰你現在對人不管他是夾帶還是他是郵寄都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰\n\n25\n00:09:29,811 --> 00:09:44,918\n這樣我們才能盡量賭嘛剛剛管主委講我是很同意啊再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百但越嚴格效果總是越好好不好所以你願不願意在這邊我們就當場承受至少我們今天諮詢有個進展嘛就是說我把這個還給開一個非故意的這個橋門我現在把它拿掉\n\n26\n00:09:45,618 --> 00:09:58,774\n好不好農業部要不要答應我們來跟相關單位我們就針對這個修法的途徑上來這個應該不用修了你們內部行政命令把程序走完其實就好了會比立法院修法快得多好不好這個你三天之內要給我們一個答覆可以嗎我們要希望討論制度補破網啦好不好\n\n27\n00:10:12,561 --> 00:10:27,354\n除了这个自己故意寄给自己然后被我们采发以外还有另外一种样态就是说这个邮包他不知道是谁的然后他接到这个包裹了他发现是简易物他也必须要交给我们如果没有交出来的话也有罚则是3到15万所以这两种样态都有对应的罚则了\n\n28\n00:10:27,634 --> 00:10:39,368\n沒關係你三天之內把這個法規做檢討但我現在告訴你就有一個狀況而且你的績效就是一千件只能罰九件啦這件事情你們要思考一下怎麼樣提高他的效能啦這是本期今天質詢的重點希望大家好好思考大家一起加油謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5265\t14688\t謝謝主席我們農業部房檢署杜署長官務署彭署長還有海委會管組委好請移上官員列席大家都辛苦委員好來我先問一下杜署長杜署長你今天好像很可憐喔這個要講一講公道話希望大家共同面對\n32950\t60948\t防疫的重大挑戰結果好像不分朝野都要砲轟你一下對不對這個我希望你一本初衷啦其實你第一個回答書下會委員質疑回答本來就很好嘛就四平八穩的講大家都有一定的工作跟分工那大家都很努力那這是中央地方共同的責任剛剛很多民進黨的委員都提說這個是甚至都要逼你講出就是台中市政府防疫不力那這都很正常 政治口水嘛但是我要問的是非洲豬瘟它會平白無故在台灣境內產生嗎\n62813\t80913\t不會嘛 他一定是境外移入那以署長的了解 境外移入有哪幾種渠道就是他怎麼進來的我們也有在研析過 當然從他的管道上來講當然機場會是一個 港口也是一個那包括到說 我們現在的\n82148\t106382\t移工 外勞那這些等等還有產品署長你聽一聽第一個叫旅客夾帶就不管是坐船的坐飛機的等等偷偷帶進來的嘛叫旅客夾帶第二個就是所謂的走私嘛這漁船的走私有的沒的夾也是一種夾帶的行為但它量比較大對不對 也是一種走私第三種叫郵寄嘛對不對 大概就是這三種有沒有脫離這三種的範疇\n109310\t128983\t大體上應該不拖這樣的範疇如果有你可以補充沒有關係那我剛剛也聽了很多委員在問包含馬市長講旅客夾帶我想我們自己有時候常出國回來這該到位的也都有到位啦我們該查都有查都有過X光機這我想大家都有經驗所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶我請教一下館主委\n129997\t146242\t你剛剛講的都問到你的時候你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗我想這個很OK嘛大家都希望從嚴處理因為那個死在那個地方你當然要檢驗嘛對不對但問題是海巡的另外一個重要的任務也是查其走私嘛那最近這段時間有沒有查其到豬肉走私的狀況有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢\n147284\t168731\t農漁產品比較多大概4萬多公斤的農漁產品的走私我們今天就討論豬肉而已豬肉的部分我們沒有4萬多公噸的農漁產品然後沒有查到任何的豬肉公斤不好意思公斤修正一下但沒有查到走私的豬肉我們過去曾經有查到的是譬如說毛肚\n169151\t185922\t整船整船的忙碌我只問主委一個牛肉的製品是比較多尤其是牛雜你們都已經盡了最大的努力我不會否定海軍同仁的辛苦但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎\n187054\t205031\t委員這個問題其實大家都知道答案我們盡全力你全力以赴但是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能因為這東西實在是太你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把我想每一個管道的問題是一樣每一個管道的問題是一樣我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛好不好這我們希望海運署就加強把控啦尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的這個是最上游\n210055\t238225\t那基本上管制到豬場的那個部分的管理恐怕也是最關鍵但是我們每個層面我們都盡全力把它做到最好各自其職你就收好你的海上避免走私豬肉這本期要做一下提醒好我們再回到杜署長第三個然後有關務署一起好不好這也是本期今天要特別去提醒的其實就是郵寄嘛這一段時間我們都委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西這個我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了這個中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入台灣107年\n240086\t248302\t107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼\n250389\t273265\t目前我們只要是有豬肉的製品一定是20萬起跳20萬起跳 這叫夾帶入境嘛就機場沒看那宣導影片也拍很多是不是講說只要豬肉被抓到至少罰20萬最高罰100萬嘛對不對 這叫夾帶入境好 郵寄入境的罰則是什麼郵寄入境的部分也是一樣對 只要豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳一定會罰嗎真的 因為這個也牽扯到說\n279704\t289134\t整個追查的部分是有比較困難比較困難的地方在哪裡 來我今天就要問這個今天我們要談制度補破網我今天就這一件事而已\n291314\t317852\t是 跟委員報告因為這個郵包的部分他這個寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人其實在全球都是一樣 常常是對不起來的所以我們行政調查的案件到最後會承擔到裁罰的案件其實相對的是比較少的好 講得真好這個郵遞寄送的輸入狀況從有非洲族恩到現在由你頒布重罰的條款到現在你抓到多少案子 裁罰了多少人有沒有數據做一下整理\n322102\t347603\t是 郭委員報告齁這個郵包的部分我們攔截到就是一隻豬肉產品然後被我們攔下來的被海關攔下來移送到房間數的大約有1000案但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個就是9個案件人1000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰很好 這就是我今天重點來脫影片秀出來這個動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令如果本席沒有了解錯誤\n348379\t371298\t現在狀況是這樣旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬但是問題是你郵寄寄送書我們先不要講說你追溯溯源很難罰你竟然還有後門條款這個第四點你看看頭裡面這樣違反本公告者由輸出入動物檢疫機關一動物傳染病防治條例四三條第八款規定採取收件人但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者不予處罰\n372671\t374632\t報告委員物跟人要分開處理物一千件全部燒毀\n387935\t391659\t人的處罰因為還是要有事證可以追查得到所以這個地方是有他的困難度但物是全部都燒毀那當然你物本來就都要燒毀嘛所以沒有一件事流入但是問題是這樣嘛我們為什麼要罰比如夾帶入侵要罰20萬其實叫嚇阻嘛\n407814\t434932\t也就是說我不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情嘛那同樣今天一樣物物當然抓到就沒收嘛任何夾帶走私抓到反而就要沒收反而銷毀對不對那你如果不重罰你不加大裁罰力道然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話那不是大家還是會想說我試一下嗎反正了不起要嘛他抓不到我他抓到我他也不見得證明我可以故意所以我就記吧那是不是包裹就多了包裹多了你邊境檢驗查核的壓力就大了嘛\n438214\t448276\t我們現在就針對委員所講國際郵包或者是快遞這個部分那也是關務署在檢視整個系統從登記來來來 關務署你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉其實就這個問題嘛我們今天在思考制度上要什麼補破網要加大裁判力道要把它變嚴格其實就這個問題你覺得應該把它廢掉報告委員這不是我們關務署的權責廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛\n467811\t496429\t我們都是遵守你們裡面內部因為都不是你們的權責你們也不會討論這個事所以要到立法院討論嘛對不對你們都在的時候我們當場講一講對不對跟委員包括我們在郵包那邊喔今年都已經查獲到286件了是嘛還是很多對不對那如果廢掉然後變成說我只要一抓到相對來講我比較容易裁罰成功會不會有一點嚇阻效果當然重罰齁有嚇阻的效果啦但是就是說重罰你還是要有證據證明說他是故意走私這樣的一個行為\n497352\t516251\t不是我現在這樣講非故意拿掉我不管你故不故意啊你只要進來我就是罰嘛對不對你現在就說因為我還我多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意我就更難罰嘛我現在把這條款拿掉錢包的部分喔剛剛提到的就是說常常這個收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他他可能都不知道所以要罰到\n517730\t542142\t這個收件人是有他的困難因為他可能是無故意或過失署長我就只問你把這個標準往上提讓他變嚴格即便很有可能啊會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺對不對是但是我們在防疫的時候現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嗎是這樣子對你降低你邊境的檢驗的那個壓力有沒有幫助嗎任何的重罰對我們都有幫助很好謝謝來這個農業部要不要考慮把它廢除\n548414\t562045\t我想這個有不足的地方或者是應該修法的地方這個我們會著手來處理但我在這裡還是要說明說這一千的違規的物品都銷毀了我知道我知道但我現在想是源頭嘛對人的處罰你現在對人不管他是夾帶還是他是郵寄都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰\n569811\t584918\t這樣我們才能盡量賭嘛剛剛管主委講我是很同意啊再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百但越嚴格效果總是越好好不好所以你願不願意在這邊我們就當場承受至少我們今天諮詢有個進展嘛就是說我把這個還給開一個非故意的這個橋門我現在把它拿掉\n585618\t598774\t好不好 農業部要不要答應我們來跟相關單位我們就針對這個修法的途徑上來這個應該不用修了你們內部行政命令把程序走完其實就好了會比立法院修法快得多好不好這個你三天之內要給我們一個答覆可以嗎我們要希望討論制度補破網啦 好不好\n612561\t627354\t除了这个自己故意寄给自己然后被我们采发以外还有另外一种样态就是说这个邮包他不知道是谁的然后他接到这个包裹了他发现是简易物他也必须要交给我们如果没有交出来的话也有罚则是3到15万所以这两种样态都有对应的罚则了\n627634\t639368\t沒關係 你三天之內把這個法規做檢討但我現在告訴你就有一個狀況而且你的績效就是一千件只能罰九件啦這件事情你們要思考一下怎麼樣提高他的效能啦這是本期今天質詢的重點希望大家好好思考 大家一起加油 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們農業部房檢署杜署長官務署彭署長還有海委會管組委好請移上官員列席大家都辛苦委員好來我先問一下杜署長杜署長你今天好像很可憐喔這個要講一講公道話希望大家共同面對\n防疫的重大挑戰結果好像不分朝野都要砲轟你一下對不對這個我希望你一本初衷啦其實你第一個回答書下會委員質疑回答本來就很好嘛就四平八穩的講大家都有一定的工作跟分工那大家都很努力那這是中央地方共同的責任剛剛很多民進黨的委員都提說這個是甚至都要逼你講出就是台中市政府防疫不力那這都很正常 政治口水嘛但是我要問的是非洲豬瘟它會平白無故在台灣境內產生嗎\n不會嘛 他一定是境外移入那以署長的了解 境外移入有哪幾種渠道就是他怎麼進來的我們也有在研析過 當然從他的管道上來講當然機場會是一個 港口也是一個那包括到說 我們現在的\n移工 外勞那這些等等還有產品署長你聽一聽第一個叫旅客夾帶就不管是坐船的坐飛機的等等偷偷帶進來的嘛叫旅客夾帶第二個就是所謂的走私嘛這漁船的走私有的沒的夾也是一種夾帶的行為但它量比較大對不對 也是一種走私第三種叫郵寄嘛對不對 大概就是這三種有沒有脫離這三種的範疇\n大體上應該不拖這樣的範疇如果有你可以補充沒有關係那我剛剛也聽了很多委員在問包含馬市長講旅客夾帶我想我們自己有時候常出國回來這該到位的也都有到位啦我們該查都有查都有過X光機這我想大家都有經驗所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶我請教一下館主委\n你剛剛講的都問到你的時候你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗我想這個很OK嘛大家都希望從嚴處理因為那個死在那個地方你當然要檢驗嘛對不對但問題是海巡的另外一個重要的任務也是查其走私嘛那最近這段時間有沒有查其到豬肉走私的狀況有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢\n農漁產品比較多大概4萬多公斤的農漁產品的走私我們今天就討論豬肉而已豬肉的部分我們沒有4萬多公噸的農漁產品然後沒有查到任何的豬肉公斤不好意思公斤修正一下但沒有查到走私的豬肉我們過去曾經有查到的是譬如說毛肚\n整船整船的忙碌我只問主委一個牛肉的製品是比較多尤其是牛雜你們都已經盡了最大的努力我不會否定海軍同仁的辛苦但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎\n委員這個問題其實大家都知道答案我們盡全力你全力以赴但是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能因為這東西實在是太你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把我想每一個管道的問題是一樣每一個管道的問題是一樣我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛好不好這我們希望海運署就加強把控啦尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的這個是最上游\n那基本上管制到豬場的那個部分的管理恐怕也是最關鍵但是我們每個層面我們都盡全力把它做到最好各自其職你就收好你的海上避免走私豬肉這本期要做一下提醒好我們再回到杜署長第三個然後有關務署一起好不好這也是本期今天要特別去提醒的其實就是郵寄嘛這一段時間我們都委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西這個我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了這個中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入台灣107年\n107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼\n目前我們只要是有豬肉的製品一定是20萬起跳20萬起跳 這叫夾帶入境嘛就機場沒看那宣導影片也拍很多是不是講說只要豬肉被抓到至少罰20萬最高罰100萬嘛對不對 這叫夾帶入境好 郵寄入境的罰則是什麼郵寄入境的部分也是一樣對 只要豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳一定會罰嗎真的 因為這個也牽扯到說\n整個追查的部分是有比較困難比較困難的地方在哪裡 來我今天就要問這個今天我們要談制度補破網我今天就這一件事而已\n是 跟委員報告因為這個郵包的部分他這個寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人其實在全球都是一樣 常常是對不起來的所以我們行政調查的案件到最後會承擔到裁罰的案件其實相對的是比較少的好 講得真好這個郵遞寄送的輸入狀況從有非洲族恩到現在由你頒布重罰的條款到現在你抓到多少案子 裁罰了多少人有沒有數據做一下整理\n是 郭委員報告齁這個郵包的部分我們攔截到就是一隻豬肉產品然後被我們攔下來的被海關攔下來移送到房間數的大約有1000案但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個就是9個案件人1000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰很好 這就是我今天重點來脫影片秀出來這個動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令如果本席沒有了解錯誤\n現在狀況是這樣旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬但是問題是你郵寄寄送書我們先不要講說你追溯溯源很難罰你竟然還有後門條款這個第四點你看看頭裡面這樣違反本公告者由輸出入動物檢疫機關一動物傳染病防治條例四三條第八款規定採取收件人但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者不予處罰\n報告委員物跟人要分開處理物一千件全部燒毀\n人的處罰因為還是要有事證可以追查得到所以這個地方是有他的困難度但物是全部都燒毀那當然你物本來就都要燒毀嘛所以沒有一件事流入但是問題是這樣嘛我們為什麼要罰比如夾帶入侵要罰20萬其實叫嚇阻嘛\n也就是說我不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情嘛那同樣今天一樣物物當然抓到就沒收嘛任何夾帶走私抓到反而就要沒收反而銷毀對不對那你如果不重罰你不加大裁罰力道然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話那不是大家還是會想說我試一下嗎反正了不起要嘛他抓不到我他抓到我他也不見得證明我可以故意所以我就記吧那是不是包裹就多了包裹多了你邊境檢驗查核的壓力就大了嘛\n我們現在就針對委員所講國際郵包或者是快遞這個部分那也是關務署在檢視整個系統從登記來來來 關務署你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉其實就這個問題嘛我們今天在思考制度上要什麼補破網要加大裁判力道要把它變嚴格其實就這個問題你覺得應該把它廢掉報告委員這不是我們關務署的權責廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛\n我們都是遵守你們裡面內部因為都不是你們的權責你們也不會討論這個事所以要到立法院討論嘛對不對你們都在的時候我們當場講一講對不對跟委員包括我們在郵包那邊喔今年都已經查獲到286件了是嘛還是很多對不對那如果廢掉然後變成說我只要一抓到相對來講我比較容易裁罰成功會不會有一點嚇阻效果當然重罰齁有嚇阻的效果啦但是就是說重罰你還是要有證據證明說他是故意走私這樣的一個行為\n不是我現在這樣講非故意拿掉我不管你故不故意啊你只要進來我就是罰嘛對不對你現在就說因為我還我多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意我就更難罰嘛我現在把這條款拿掉錢包的部分喔剛剛提到的就是說常常這個收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他他可能都不知道所以要罰到\n這個收件人是有他的困難因為他可能是無故意或過失署長我就只問你把這個標準往上提讓他變嚴格即便很有可能啊會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺對不對是但是我們在防疫的時候現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嗎是這樣子對你降低你邊境的檢驗的那個壓力有沒有幫助嗎任何的重罰對我們都有幫助很好謝謝來這個農業部要不要考慮把它廢除\n我想這個有不足的地方或者是應該修法的地方這個我們會著手來處理但我在這裡還是要說明說這一千的違規的物品都銷毀了我知道我知道但我現在想是源頭嘛對人的處罰你現在對人不管他是夾帶還是他是郵寄都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰\n這樣我們才能盡量賭嘛剛剛管主委講我是很同意啊再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百但越嚴格效果總是越好好不好所以你願不願意在這邊我們就當場承受至少我們今天諮詢有個進展嘛就是說我把這個還給開一個非故意的這個橋門我現在把它拿掉\n好不好 農業部要不要答應我們來跟相關單位我們就針對這個修法的途徑上來這個應該不用修了你們內部行政命令把程序走完其實就好了會比立法院修法快得多好不好這個你三天之內要給我們一個答覆可以嗎我們要希望討論制度補破網啦 好不好\n除了这个自己故意寄给自己然后被我们采发以外还有另外一种样态就是说这个邮包他不知道是谁的然后他接到这个包裹了他发现是简易物他也必须要交给我们如果没有交出来的话也有罚则是3到15万所以这两种样态都有对应的罚则了\n沒關係 你三天之內把這個法規做檢討但我現在告訴你就有一個狀況而且你的績效就是一千件只能罰九件啦這件事情你們要思考一下怎麼樣提高他的效能啦這是本期今天質詢的重點希望大家好好思考 大家一起加油 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.265 --> 00:14.688\n謝謝主席我們農業部房檢署杜署長官務署彭署長還有海委會管組委好請移上官員列席大家都辛苦委員好來我先問一下杜署長杜署長你今天好像很可憐喔這個要講一講公道話希望大家共同面對\n\n00:32.950 --> 01:00.948\n防疫的重大挑戰結果好像不分朝野都要砲轟你一下對不對這個我希望你一本初衷啦其實你第一個回答書下會委員質疑回答本來就很好嘛就四平八穩的講大家都有一定的工作跟分工那大家都很努力那這是中央地方共同的責任剛剛很多民進黨的委員都提說這個是甚至都要逼你講出就是台中市政府防疫不力那這都很正常政治口水嘛但是我要問的是非洲豬瘟它會平白無故在台灣境內產生嗎\n\n01:02.813 --> 01:20.913\n不會嘛他一定是境外移入那以署長的了解境外移入有哪幾種渠道就是他怎麼進來的我們也有在研析過當然從他的管道上來講當然機場會是一個港口也是一個那包括到說我們現在的\n\n01:22.148 --> 01:46.382\n移工外勞那這些等等還有產品署長你聽一聽第一個叫旅客夾帶就不管是坐船的坐飛機的等等偷偷帶進來的嘛叫旅客夾帶第二個就是所謂的走私嘛這漁船的走私有的沒的夾也是一種夾帶的行為但它量比較大對不對也是一種走私第三種叫郵寄嘛對不對大概就是這三種有沒有脫離這三種的範疇\n\n01:49.310 --> 02:08.983\n大體上應該不拖這樣的範疇如果有你可以補充沒有關係那我剛剛也聽了很多委員在問包含馬市長講旅客夾帶我想我們自己有時候常出國回來這該到位的也都有到位啦我們該查都有查都有過X光機這我想大家都有經驗所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶我請教一下館主委\n\n02:09.997 --> 02:26.242\n你剛剛講的都問到你的時候你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗我想這個很OK嘛大家都希望從嚴處理因為那個死在那個地方你當然要檢驗嘛對不對但問題是海巡的另外一個重要的任務也是查其走私嘛那最近這段時間有沒有查其到豬肉走私的狀況有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢\n\n02:27.284 --> 02:48.731\n農漁產品比較多大概4萬多公斤的農漁產品的走私我們今天就討論豬肉而已豬肉的部分我們沒有4萬多公噸的農漁產品然後沒有查到任何的豬肉公斤不好意思公斤修正一下但沒有查到走私的豬肉我們過去曾經有查到的是譬如說毛肚\n\n02:49.151 --> 03:05.922\n整船整船的忙碌我只問主委一個牛肉的製品是比較多尤其是牛雜你們都已經盡了最大的努力我不會否定海軍同仁的辛苦但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎\n\n03:07.054 --> 03:25.031\n委員這個問題其實大家都知道答案我們盡全力你全力以赴但是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能因為這東西實在是太你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把我想每一個管道的問題是一樣每一個管道的問題是一樣我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛好不好這我們希望海運署就加強把控啦尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的這個是最上游\n\n03:30.055 --> 03:58.225\n那基本上管制到豬場的那個部分的管理恐怕也是最關鍵但是我們每個層面我們都盡全力把它做到最好各自其職你就收好你的海上避免走私豬肉這本期要做一下提醒好我們再回到杜署長第三個然後有關務署一起好不好這也是本期今天要特別去提醒的其實就是郵寄嘛這一段時間我們都委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西這個我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了這個中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入台灣107年\n\n04:00.086 --> 04:08.302\n107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼\n\n04:10.389 --> 04:33.265\n目前我們只要是有豬肉的製品一定是20萬起跳20萬起跳這叫夾帶入境嘛就機場沒看那宣導影片也拍很多是不是講說只要豬肉被抓到至少罰20萬最高罰100萬嘛對不對這叫夾帶入境好郵寄入境的罰則是什麼郵寄入境的部分也是一樣對只要豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳一定會罰嗎真的因為這個也牽扯到說\n\n04:39.704 --> 04:49.134\n整個追查的部分是有比較困難比較困難的地方在哪裡來我今天就要問這個今天我們要談制度補破網我今天就這一件事而已\n\n04:51.314 --> 05:17.852\n是跟委員報告因為這個郵包的部分他這個寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人其實在全球都是一樣常常是對不起來的所以我們行政調查的案件到最後會承擔到裁罰的案件其實相對的是比較少的好講得真好這個郵遞寄送的輸入狀況從有非洲族恩到現在由你頒布重罰的條款到現在你抓到多少案子裁罰了多少人有沒有數據做一下整理\n\n05:22.102 --> 05:47.603\n是郭委員報告齁這個郵包的部分我們攔截到就是一隻豬肉產品然後被我們攔下來的被海關攔下來移送到房間數的大約有1000案但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個就是9個案件人1000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰很好這就是我今天重點來脫影片秀出來這個動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令如果本席沒有了解錯誤\n\n05:48.379 --> 06:11.298\n現在狀況是這樣旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬但是問題是你郵寄寄送書我們先不要講說你追溯溯源很難罰你竟然還有後門條款這個第四點你看看頭裡面這樣違反本公告者由輸出入動物檢疫機關一動物傳染病防治條例四三條第八款規定採取收件人但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者不予處罰\n\n06:12.671 --> 06:14.632\n報告委員物跟人要分開處理物一千件全部燒毀\n\n06:27.935 --> 06:31.659\n人的處罰因為還是要有事證可以追查得到所以這個地方是有他的困難度但物是全部都燒毀那當然你物本來就都要燒毀嘛所以沒有一件事流入但是問題是這樣嘛我們為什麼要罰比如夾帶入侵要罰20萬其實叫嚇阻嘛\n\n06:47.814 --> 07:14.932\n也就是說我不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情嘛那同樣今天一樣物物當然抓到就沒收嘛任何夾帶走私抓到反而就要沒收反而銷毀對不對那你如果不重罰你不加大裁罰力道然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話那不是大家還是會想說我試一下嗎反正了不起要嘛他抓不到我他抓到我他也不見得證明我可以故意所以我就記吧那是不是包裹就多了包裹多了你邊境檢驗查核的壓力就大了嘛\n\n07:18.214 --> 07:28.276\n我們現在就針對委員所講國際郵包或者是快遞這個部分那也是關務署在檢視整個系統從登記來來來關務署你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉其實就這個問題嘛我們今天在思考制度上要什麼補破網要加大裁判力道要把它變嚴格其實就這個問題你覺得應該把它廢掉報告委員這不是我們關務署的權責廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛\n\n07:47.811 --> 08:16.429\n我們都是遵守你們裡面內部因為都不是你們的權責你們也不會討論這個事所以要到立法院討論嘛對不對你們都在的時候我們當場講一講對不對跟委員包括我們在郵包那邊喔今年都已經查獲到286件了是嘛還是很多對不對那如果廢掉然後變成說我只要一抓到相對來講我比較容易裁罰成功會不會有一點嚇阻效果當然重罰齁有嚇阻的效果啦但是就是說重罰你還是要有證據證明說他是故意走私這樣的一個行為\n\n08:17.352 --> 08:36.251\n不是我現在這樣講非故意拿掉我不管你故不故意啊你只要進來我就是罰嘛對不對你現在就說因為我還我多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意我就更難罰嘛我現在把這條款拿掉錢包的部分喔剛剛提到的就是說常常這個收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他他可能都不知道所以要罰到\n\n08:37.730 --> 09:02.142\n這個收件人是有他的困難因為他可能是無故意或過失署長我就只問你把這個標準往上提讓他變嚴格即便很有可能啊會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺對不對是但是我們在防疫的時候現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嗎是這樣子對你降低你邊境的檢驗的那個壓力有沒有幫助嗎任何的重罰對我們都有幫助很好謝謝來這個農業部要不要考慮把它廢除\n\n09:08.414 --> 09:22.045\n我想這個有不足的地方或者是應該修法的地方這個我們會著手來處理但我在這裡還是要說明說這一千的違規的物品都銷毀了我知道我知道但我現在想是源頭嘛對人的處罰你現在對人不管他是夾帶還是他是郵寄都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰\n\n09:29.811 --> 09:44.918\n這樣我們才能盡量賭嘛剛剛管主委講我是很同意啊再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百但越嚴格效果總是越好好不好所以你願不願意在這邊我們就當場承受至少我們今天諮詢有個進展嘛就是說我把這個還給開一個非故意的這個橋門我現在把它拿掉\n\n09:45.618 --> 09:58.774\n好不好農業部要不要答應我們來跟相關單位我們就針對這個修法的途徑上來這個應該不用修了你們內部行政命令把程序走完其實就好了會比立法院修法快得多好不好這個你三天之內要給我們一個答覆可以嗎我們要希望討論制度補破網啦好不好\n\n10:12.561 --> 10:27.354\n除了这个自己故意寄给自己然后被我们采发以外还有另外一种样态就是说这个邮包他不知道是谁的然后他接到这个包裹了他发现是简易物他也必须要交给我们如果没有交出来的话也有罚则是3到15万所以这两种样态都有对应的罚则了\n\n10:27.634 --> 10:39.368\n沒關係你三天之內把這個法規做檢討但我現在告訴你就有一個狀況而且你的績效就是一千件只能罰九件啦這件事情你們要思考一下怎麼樣提高他的效能啦這是本期今天質詢的重點希望大家好好思考大家一起加油謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.265,"end":14.688,"text":"謝謝主席我們農業部房檢署杜署長官務署彭署長還有海委會管組委好請移上官員列席大家都辛苦委員好來我先問一下杜署長杜署長你今天好像很可憐喔這個要講一講公道話希望大家共同面對"},{"start":32.95,"end":60.948,"text":"防疫的重大挑戰結果好像不分朝野都要砲轟你一下對不對這個我希望你一本初衷啦其實你第一個回答書下會委員質疑回答本來就很好嘛就四平八穩的講大家都有一定的工作跟分工那大家都很努力那這是中央地方共同的責任剛剛很多民進黨的委員都提說這個是甚至都要逼你講出就是台中市政府防疫不力那這都很正常 政治口水嘛但是我要問的是非洲豬瘟它會平白無故在台灣境內產生嗎"},{"start":62.813,"end":80.913,"text":"不會嘛 他一定是境外移入那以署長的了解 境外移入有哪幾種渠道就是他怎麼進來的我們也有在研析過 當然從他的管道上來講當然機場會是一個 港口也是一個那包括到說 我們現在的"},{"start":82.148,"end":106.382,"text":"移工 外勞那這些等等還有產品署長你聽一聽第一個叫旅客夾帶就不管是坐船的坐飛機的等等偷偷帶進來的嘛叫旅客夾帶第二個就是所謂的走私嘛這漁船的走私有的沒的夾也是一種夾帶的行為但它量比較大對不對 也是一種走私第三種叫郵寄嘛對不對 大概就是這三種有沒有脫離這三種的範疇"},{"start":109.31,"end":128.983,"text":"大體上應該不拖這樣的範疇如果有你可以補充沒有關係那我剛剛也聽了很多委員在問包含馬市長講旅客夾帶我想我們自己有時候常出國回來這該到位的也都有到位啦我們該查都有查都有過X光機這我想大家都有經驗所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶我請教一下館主委"},{"start":129.997,"end":146.242,"text":"你剛剛講的都問到你的時候你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗我想這個很OK嘛大家都希望從嚴處理因為那個死在那個地方你當然要檢驗嘛對不對但問題是海巡的另外一個重要的任務也是查其走私嘛那最近這段時間有沒有查其到豬肉走私的狀況有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢"},{"start":147.284,"end":168.731,"text":"農漁產品比較多大概4萬多公斤的農漁產品的走私我們今天就討論豬肉而已豬肉的部分我們沒有4萬多公噸的農漁產品然後沒有查到任何的豬肉公斤不好意思公斤修正一下但沒有查到走私的豬肉我們過去曾經有查到的是譬如說毛肚"},{"start":169.151,"end":185.922,"text":"整船整船的忙碌我只問主委一個牛肉的製品是比較多尤其是牛雜你們都已經盡了最大的努力我不會否定海軍同仁的辛苦但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎"},{"start":187.054,"end":205.031,"text":"委員這個問題其實大家都知道答案我們盡全力你全力以赴但是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能因為這東西實在是太你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把我想每一個管道的問題是一樣每一個管道的問題是一樣我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛好不好這我們希望海運署就加強把控啦尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的這個是最上游"},{"start":210.055,"end":238.225,"text":"那基本上管制到豬場的那個部分的管理恐怕也是最關鍵但是我們每個層面我們都盡全力把它做到最好各自其職你就收好你的海上避免走私豬肉這本期要做一下提醒好我們再回到杜署長第三個然後有關務署一起好不好這也是本期今天要特別去提醒的其實就是郵寄嘛這一段時間我們都委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西這個我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了這個中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入台灣107年"},{"start":240.086,"end":248.302,"text":"107年嘛對不對這其實很清楚嘛那這個署長跟我們分享一下為什麼違規輸入啊就郵寄入境跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼"},{"start":250.389,"end":273.265,"text":"目前我們只要是有豬肉的製品一定是20萬起跳20萬起跳 這叫夾帶入境嘛就機場沒看那宣導影片也拍很多是不是講說只要豬肉被抓到至少罰20萬最高罰100萬嘛對不對 這叫夾帶入境好 郵寄入境的罰則是什麼郵寄入境的部分也是一樣對 只要豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳一定會罰嗎真的 因為這個也牽扯到說"},{"start":279.704,"end":289.134,"text":"整個追查的部分是有比較困難比較困難的地方在哪裡 來我今天就要問這個今天我們要談制度補破網我今天就這一件事而已"},{"start":291.314,"end":317.852,"text":"是 跟委員報告因為這個郵包的部分他這個寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人其實在全球都是一樣 常常是對不起來的所以我們行政調查的案件到最後會承擔到裁罰的案件其實相對的是比較少的好 講得真好這個郵遞寄送的輸入狀況從有非洲族恩到現在由你頒布重罰的條款到現在你抓到多少案子 裁罰了多少人有沒有數據做一下整理"},{"start":322.102,"end":347.603,"text":"是 郭委員報告齁這個郵包的部分我們攔截到就是一隻豬肉產品然後被我們攔下來的被海關攔下來移送到房間數的大約有1000案但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個就是9個案件人1000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰很好 這就是我今天重點來脫影片秀出來這個動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令如果本席沒有了解錯誤"},{"start":348.379,"end":371.298,"text":"現在狀況是這樣旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬但是問題是你郵寄寄送書我們先不要講說你追溯溯源很難罰你竟然還有後門條款這個第四點你看看頭裡面這樣違反本公告者由輸出入動物檢疫機關一動物傳染病防治條例四三條第八款規定採取收件人但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者不予處罰"},{"start":372.671,"end":374.632,"text":"報告委員物跟人要分開處理物一千件全部燒毀"},{"start":387.935,"end":391.659,"text":"人的處罰因為還是要有事證可以追查得到所以這個地方是有他的困難度但物是全部都燒毀那當然你物本來就都要燒毀嘛所以沒有一件事流入但是問題是這樣嘛我們為什麼要罰比如夾帶入侵要罰20萬其實叫嚇阻嘛"},{"start":407.814,"end":434.932,"text":"也就是說我不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情嘛那同樣今天一樣物物當然抓到就沒收嘛任何夾帶走私抓到反而就要沒收反而銷毀對不對那你如果不重罰你不加大裁罰力道然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話那不是大家還是會想說我試一下嗎反正了不起要嘛他抓不到我他抓到我他也不見得證明我可以故意所以我就記吧那是不是包裹就多了包裹多了你邊境檢驗查核的壓力就大了嘛"},{"start":438.214,"end":448.276,"text":"我們現在就針對委員所講國際郵包或者是快遞這個部分那也是關務署在檢視整個系統從登記來來來 關務署你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉其實就這個問題嘛我們今天在思考制度上要什麼補破網要加大裁判力道要把它變嚴格其實就這個問題你覺得應該把它廢掉報告委員這不是我們關務署的權責廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛"},{"start":467.811,"end":496.429,"text":"我們都是遵守你們裡面內部因為都不是你們的權責你們也不會討論這個事所以要到立法院討論嘛對不對你們都在的時候我們當場講一講對不對跟委員包括我們在郵包那邊喔今年都已經查獲到286件了是嘛還是很多對不對那如果廢掉然後變成說我只要一抓到相對來講我比較容易裁罰成功會不會有一點嚇阻效果當然重罰齁有嚇阻的效果啦但是就是說重罰你還是要有證據證明說他是故意走私這樣的一個行為"},{"start":497.352,"end":516.251,"text":"不是我現在這樣講非故意拿掉我不管你故不故意啊你只要進來我就是罰嘛對不對你現在就說因為我還我多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意我就更難罰嘛我現在把這條款拿掉錢包的部分喔剛剛提到的就是說常常這個收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他他可能都不知道所以要罰到"},{"start":517.73,"end":542.142,"text":"這個收件人是有他的困難因為他可能是無故意或過失署長我就只問你把這個標準往上提讓他變嚴格即便很有可能啊會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺對不對是但是我們在防疫的時候現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嗎是這樣子對你降低你邊境的檢驗的那個壓力有沒有幫助嗎任何的重罰對我們都有幫助很好謝謝來這個農業部要不要考慮把它廢除"},{"start":548.414,"end":562.045,"text":"我想這個有不足的地方或者是應該修法的地方這個我們會著手來處理但我在這裡還是要說明說這一千的違規的物品都銷毀了我知道我知道但我現在想是源頭嘛對人的處罰你現在對人不管他是夾帶還是他是郵寄都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰"},{"start":569.811,"end":584.918,"text":"這樣我們才能盡量賭嘛剛剛管主委講我是很同意啊再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百但越嚴格效果總是越好好不好所以你願不願意在這邊我們就當場承受至少我們今天諮詢有個進展嘛就是說我把這個還給開一個非故意的這個橋門我現在把它拿掉"},{"start":585.618,"end":598.774,"text":"好不好 農業部要不要答應我們來跟相關單位我們就針對這個修法的途徑上來這個應該不用修了你們內部行政命令把程序走完其實就好了會比立法院修法快得多好不好這個你三天之內要給我們一個答覆可以嗎我們要希望討論制度補破網啦 好不好"},{"start":612.561,"end":627.354,"text":"除了这个自己故意寄给自己然后被我们采发以外还有另外一种样态就是说这个邮包他不知道是谁的然后他接到这个包裹了他发现是简易物他也必须要交给我们如果没有交出来的话也有罚则是3到15万所以这两种样态都有对应的罚则了"},{"start":627.634,"end":639.368,"text":"沒關係 你三天之內把這個法規做檢討但我現在告訴你就有一個狀況而且你的績效就是一千件只能罰九件啦這件事情你們要思考一下怎麼樣提高他的效能啦這是本期今天質詢的重點希望大家好好思考 大家一起加油 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請農業部防檢署杜署長、關務署彭署長，還有海委會管主委。"],["主席：好，請以上官員列席。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：大家都辛苦了。我先問一下杜署長。杜署長，你今天好像很可憐，要講一講公道話，希望大家共同面對防疫的重大挑戰，結果好像不分朝野都要炮轟你一下，對不對？我希望你一本初衷啦，其實你第一個回答蘇巧慧委員質詢時，本來就回答得很好，就四平八穩的講，大家都有一定的工作跟分工、大家都很努力，這是中央與地方共同的責任。剛剛很多民進黨委員都提到這個是……甚至都要逼你講出就是臺中市政府防疫不力，這都很正常，政治口水嘛，但是我要問的是，非洲豬瘟會平白無故在臺灣境內產生嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：不會，這一定是……"],["牛委員煦庭：不會嘛，對不對？它一定是境外移入。"],["杜署長麗華：境外移入。"],["牛委員煦庭：以署長的了解，境外移入有哪幾種渠道？就是它怎麼進來的？"],["杜署長麗華：我們也有再研析過，當然從它的管道上來講，機場會是一個，港口也是一個，包括我們現在的移工、外勞等等這些，還有產品。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，你聽一聽啦：第一個叫旅客夾帶，就不管是坐船或坐飛機的，偷偷帶進來的叫旅客夾帶。第二個就是所謂的走私嘛，漁船走私有的沒的，這也是一種夾帶的行為，但它的量比較大，對不對？也有這種走私。第三種叫郵寄嘛，對不對？大概就這三種，有沒有脫離這三種的範疇？大體上應該不脫這樣的範疇。"],["杜署長麗華：對，大概……"],["牛委員煦庭：如果有，你可以補充沒有關係。"],["杜署長麗華：是、是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛也聽了，就是很多委員都在問，包含馬次長講旅客夾帶，我想我們自己有時候常出國回來，這部分該到位的也都有到位，我們該查的都有查，都有過X光機，這部分我想大家都有經驗，所以我今天的重點不是談旅客夾帶。我請教一下管主委，你剛剛講的、剛剛問到你的時候，你都講海漂豬你們一定檢驗，我想這個很OK嘛，大家都希望從嚴處理，因為那個豬就死在那個地方，你當然要檢驗嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但問題是，海巡另外一個重要任務是查緝走私嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：最近這一段時間你們有沒有查緝到豬肉走私的狀況？有沒有一些數據可以跟大家報告一下呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：農漁產品比較多，大概四萬多公斤農漁產品的走私，裡面如果……"],["牛委員煦庭：豬肉的部分，我們今天就討論豬肉而已啊。"],["管主任委員碧玲：豬肉的部分，我們沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：四萬多公噸的農漁產品，然後沒有查到任何的豬肉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：公斤。"],["牛委員煦庭：不好意思，是公斤，我修正一下，但並沒有查到走私的豬肉？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們過去曾經有查到的是，譬如說毛肚，整船、整船的毛肚，那一次……"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，我只問主委一個啦……"],["管主任委員碧玲：牛肉的製品是比較多，尤其是牛雜。"],["牛委員煦庭：牛肉製品比較多，我只問主委一個，就是你們都已經盡了最大的努力，我不會否定海巡同仁的辛苦，但是主委你可以掛保證說這就是全部的走私了嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，這個問題其實大家都知道答案。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛，不行嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們盡全力。"],["牛委員煦庭：你全力以赴，但是這件事是再怎麼樣防堵都不可能，因為這個東西實在是太……你不可能所有的人通通一天到晚把……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我想每一個管道的問題是一樣的。"],["牛委員煦庭：每一個管道的問題是一樣的，很好，我們現在要聽的就是實話嘛，好不好？這部分我們希望海巡署就加強把控，尤其是針對這種可疑豬肉的部分。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是這個是最上游，基本上，管制到豬場那個部分的管理，恐怕也是最關鍵，但是我們每個層面，我們都盡全力把它做到最好。"],["牛委員煦庭：各司其職，你就守好你的海上，避免走私豬肉，這一點本席要做一下提醒。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我們再回到杜署長。","第三個，關務署也一起好不好？這也是本席今天要特別去提醒的，其實就是郵寄，這一段時間，很多委員講說要禁止淘寶或什麼東西，請問我們從什麼時候開始就禁止了中國大陸地區的豬肉製品輸入臺灣？"],["杜署長麗華：107年。"],["牛委員煦庭：107年嘛，對不對？這其實是很清楚的，請署長跟我們分享一下，違規輸入，就是郵寄入境，跟旅客夾帶的罰則分別是什麼？"],["杜署長麗華：目前只要是含有豬肉的製品，一定是20萬起跳。"],["牛委員煦庭：20萬起跳，這叫夾帶入境，就是機場的部分，我看你們的宣導影片也拍很多。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：只要帶豬肉被抓到，至少罰20萬，最高罰100萬，對不對？這叫夾帶入境。"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問郵寄入境的罰則是什麼？"],["杜署長麗華：郵寄入境的部分也是一樣，只要是豬肉產品也都是20萬起跳。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定會罰嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：真的，因為這個也牽扯到整個追查的部分，確實是有比較困難。"],["牛委員煦庭：比較困難的地方在哪裡？我今天就是要問這個，今天我們要談的是制度補破網，我今天就這一件事而已。"],["杜署長麗華：我請副組長說明一下。"],["亓副組長隆祥：跟委員報告，因為郵包的部分，寄進來的人跟實際上收貨的人，其實在全球都是一樣，常常是對不起來的，所以我們行政調查的案件，到最後會成案、到裁罰的案件，其實相對是比較少的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，講得真好，郵遞寄送的輸入狀況，從有非洲豬瘟到現在，有你頒布重罰的條款到現在，你抓到多少案子、裁罰了多少人？有沒有數據做一下整理。"],["亓副組長隆祥：跟委員報告，郵包的部分我們攔截到，就是疑似豬肉產品，然後被海關攔下來移送到防檢署的大約有1,000案，但到最後成功裁罰的只有9個案件人。"],["牛委員煦庭：1,000個案子裡面只有9個案子被裁罰？很好，這個就是我今天的重點。來，投影片秀出來，動物傳染病防治條例是法律的層級，但是裁罰基準應該是行政命令，如果本席沒有了解錯誤，現在的狀況是這樣，旅客夾帶進來至少罰20萬，但問題是郵件寄送輸入，我們先不要講說你追溯、溯源很難罰，你竟然還有後門條款，就是第四點，你可以看投影片上，違反本公告者，由輸出入動物檢疫機關，依動物傳染病防治條例第四十三條第八款規定裁處收件人，但收件人非輸入人或首次輸入非故意者，不予處罰。本身要抓郵包已經很困難了，然後你還開一個後門，說首次非故意不予裁罰，難怪你一千多件掌握只有9件裁罰嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，物跟人要分開處理，物1,000件全部燒毀，人的處罰因為還是要有事證及可以追查得到，所以這個地方是有它的困難度，但物是全部都燒毀。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，物本來就都要燒毀嘛。"],["杜署長麗華：所以這1,000件沒有一件是流入。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是問題是這樣，我們為什麼要罰？比如說夾帶入侵要罰20萬，其實它叫嚇阻嘛，也就是說，不要讓這些人起心動念說我想要幹這個事情。同樣，今天一樣，物當然抓到就沒收，任何夾帶走私抓到本來就要沒收、要把它銷毀，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你如果不重罰，你不加大裁罰力道，然後讓裁罰的執行性可以增加的話，那不是大家還是會想說我試一下，反正了不起……要嘛他抓不到我，就算他抓到我，他也不見得可以證明我是故意，所以我就寄了，那是不是包裹就多了？包裹多了，你邊境檢驗、查核的壓力就大了，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：對，我們現在就是針對委員所講的，國際郵包或者快遞的部分，由關務署去檢視整個系統，從登記一直到末端領物……"],["牛委員煦庭：請教關務署，你贊不贊成把這個條款廢掉？其實就是這個問題，我們今天在思考制度上要怎麼補破網，要加大裁罰力道，要把它變嚴格，其實就是這個問題，你覺得應不應該把它廢掉？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，這不是我們關務署的權責啦。"],["牛委員煦庭：廢掉對你們有沒有幫助嘛？"],["彭署長英偉：我們都是遵守政策，嚴格查緝。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為都不是你們的權責，你們也不會討論這個事，所以要到立法院討論嘛，對不對？你們都在的時候，我們當場講一講，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，我們在郵包那邊，今年已經查獲到286件了。"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛，但還是很多，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：還是會有。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果廢掉，然後變成說我只要一抓到，相對來講，我比較容易裁罰成功，會不會有一點嚇阻效果？"],["彭署長英偉：當然重罰會有嚇阻的效果，但是即使重罰你還是要有證據證明他是一個故意走私的行為。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是，我現在就是要講把「非故意」拿掉，我不管你故不故意，你只要進來，我就是罰嘛！對不對？因為多一關要證明你是故意還是非故意，我就更難罰嘛！所以我現在要把這個條款拿掉。"],["彭署長英偉：關於郵包的部分，剛剛有提到常常有收件人並不知道寄件人為什麼會寄給他，他可能都不知道，所以要罰收件人是有其困難，因為他可能是無故意或過失。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，我就只問你，把這個標準往上提，讓它變得嚴格，即便很有可能會造成另外一波有一些人會認為自己被錯殺，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是我們在防疫的時候，現在大家都在討論要不要再把破網補起來嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子對於降低你邊境檢驗的壓力有沒有幫助嘛？"],["彭署長英偉：任何的重罰對我們都有幫助。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，謝謝。來！農業部要不要考慮把它廢除？"],["杜署長麗華：我想對於有不足的地方或者應該修法的地方，我們會著手來處理，但我在這裡還是要說明，這1,000件違規的物品並沒有進到……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道都銷毀了，但是我現在講的是源頭嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：對，對人的處罰。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要對人，不管他是夾帶還是郵寄，都應該想辦法讓他很容易被罰嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣我們才能儘量堵嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是，我們已經……"],["牛委員煦庭：我很同意剛剛管主委講的，再怎麼樣嚴格都不見得百分之百，但是越嚴格效果總是越好嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：對，從源頭來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你願不願意在這邊就當場承諾，至少我們今天的質詢有一個進展嘛！就是這個還開了一個非故意的巧門，我現在把它拿掉，好不好？農業部要不要答應？"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們來跟相關單位針對這個修法的途徑上來……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個應該不用修，你們內部的行政命令把程序走完其實就好了，這樣會比立法院修法快得多，好不好？"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你在3天之內要給我們一個答復，可以嗎？我比較希望討論制度來補破網，好不好？"],["亓副組長隆祥：跟委員報告，除了自己故意寄給自己然後被我們裁罰以外，還有另外一種樣態，就是他不知道這個郵包是誰寄的，他收到這個包裹了，他發現是檢疫物，他也必須要交給我們，如果沒有交出來的話，也有罰則規定處3到15萬，所以這兩種樣態都有對應的罰則。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你們在3天之內針對這個法規做檢討，但是我現在告訴你有這個狀況，而且你的績效就是1,000件只能罰9件，你們要思考一下這件事情，看怎麼樣提高它的效能，這是本席今天質詢的重點，希望大家好好思考，大家一起加油，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：我們請黃建賓召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}}