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13:02:30","影片長度":"00:19:46","會議時間":"2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員李昆澤等27人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」、委員范雲等18人、委員劉建國等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」、委員沈發惠等18人、委員王育敏等19人、委員王育敏等25人擬、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」、委員郭昱晴等17人、委員羅廷瑋等18人分別擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修草案」案。\n（四）委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林淑芬等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(三)至(七)案，如經復議則不予審查；二、(八)至(十)案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】\n【10月29日及10月30日，二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-29","start_time":"2025-10-29T12:42:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-29T13:02:30+08:00","duration":1186,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-7"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"164831","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164831","tool":"pyannote","id":"164831-pyannote"},"job_id":"nkNH7ukYAYCSCgq6","queued_at":"2025-10-29 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"劉\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 1183.909, \"end\": 1183.969, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"趙\"}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1183.969, \"end\": 1184.069, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 1184.069, \"end\": 1184.089, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1184.089, \"end\": 1184.25, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1184.25, \"end\": 1184.35, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1184.35, \"end\": 1184.37, \"score\": 0.028}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1184.37, \"end\": 1184.43, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 1184.43, \"end\": 1184.45, \"score\": 0.001}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,575 --> 00:00:21,611\n好下一位請劉建和委員發言謝謝主席先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好部長辛苦了一早到現在我想還是有人多忙點\n\n2\n00:00:22,333 --> 00:00:48,360\n我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個非洲豬瘟這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲\n\n3\n00:00:49,625 --> 00:01:16,943\n中央應該是要強力的去把他接管起來昨天這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講在暗場中像水桶雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化清除掉這是不是真的\n\n4\n00:01:17,996 --> 00:01:25,029\n部長有掌握嗎這個要請農業部他們那個防潔局那就請部長請陳部長這夠有屬性這應該屬性吧\n\n5\n00:01:31,199 --> 00:01:50,830\n對這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒再次檢查因為已經20天了\n\n6\n00:01:52,777 --> 00:02:04,884\n對不起從20號發生到現在嘛對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題還公開的來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛對不對\n\n7\n00:02:19,005 --> 00:02:28,276\n他佔的比例全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系\n\n8\n00:02:30,871 --> 00:02:50,444\n怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講喔就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的\n\n9\n00:02:51,024 --> 00:03:18,392\n的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為要盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎\n\n10\n00:03:21,557 --> 00:03:45,567\n教他們如何先移除雜物然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消\n\n11\n00:03:46,568 --> 00:04:03,062\n所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就是昨天那個潘玲周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛\n\n12\n00:04:04,402 --> 00:04:27,107\n這不應該是這個樣子啊那顯然佔了全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣一個問題的存在嘛然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底嘛那你中央不強力介入你還要待何時還要待什麼樣的方式去做處理\n\n13\n00:04:27,267 --> 00:04:51,029\n我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對\n\n14\n00:04:52,970 --> 00:05:13,661\n就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講白一點甚至接管我們今天就會比較強力的去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論啦齁剛剛是針對清消然後\n\n15\n00:05:17,642 --> 00:05:41,924\n因為部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿物荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀\n\n16\n00:05:44,998 --> 00:06:10,209\n報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的這個規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度\n\n17\n00:06:11,610 --> 00:06:29,876\n那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果嘛是沒有錯嘛沒錯這裡都有蟲嘛對他們都不可以這樣做嘛沒錯副書長落後結果是怎樣結果結果從同意讓他們就是就地掩埋\n\n18\n00:06:31,461 --> 00:06:55,370\n因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果要依照你環境部的標準10公尺次10公尺的掩埋掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10乘10嗎很大幾十米\n\n19\n00:06:59,672 --> 00:07:20,527\n幾十米啊就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理\n\n20\n00:07:22,248 --> 00:07:23,028\n所以環境部\n\n21\n00:07:43,973 --> 00:08:04,220\n不直接進駐直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋掩埋又變成文化就一日三變還是幾天變一次那環境部的環境部環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊\n\n22\n00:08:05,922 --> 00:08:23,785\n這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關督導機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達\n\n23\n00:08:24,806 --> 00:08:53,380\n廚餘含水量高啦我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用混化的這樣的一個方式對混化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害甚至於混化不完全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上也不一定啦那我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀一下子掩埋一下子要到混化爐去混化\n\n24\n00:08:56,374 --> 00:09:21,855\n跟委員報告齁因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的緊急的措施啦齁那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊就是緊急應變嘛對不對短期又進行應變但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天它就出頭十出啦\n\n25\n00:09:25,296 --> 00:09:47,765\n所以剛剛有幾個委員包含自民黨的委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消連那個處理的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長我覺得你可能要\n\n26\n00:09:48,985 --> 00:10:07,308\n要承擔起更大的責任不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議我們的確是在思考這個問題啦因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的\n\n27\n00:10:07,748 --> 00:10:27,432\n所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善啦麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接建築在這個地方不用回來備選了我講真的\n\n28\n00:10:29,893 --> 00:10:54,913\n我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙\n\n29\n00:10:55,646 --> 00:11:21,465\n我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來\n\n30\n00:11:22,305 --> 00:11:50,127\n你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬他有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下他才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節他都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯聚了再利用情形\n\n31\n00:11:50,885 --> 00:12:17,563\n他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農民水產省與他們的環境省花部會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起\n\n32\n00:12:18,703 --> 00:12:40,250\n取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協議的合作來解決這個問題\n\n33\n00:12:43,331 --> 00:13:11,499\n有很多事情啦是因為部隊也要再接很多委員你們做部隊也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有因為那個未來的挑戰很大啦我知道你們已經我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到四多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打四多通不不不這代表我們很密切啦\n\n34\n00:13:13,306 --> 00:13:34,465\n就是密切啊密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳副長講到是希望整個這個我們建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦好不好就是\n\n35\n00:13:36,146 --> 00:13:55,694\n兩個禮拜可以嗎因為兩個禮拜還在三個禮拜一個月好不好您就很密切啊哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的一個月好不好是啦不是跟你們很忙的大家都很忙的好補充車位一個月補充車站補充一下喔抱歉陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市機場嗎\n\n36\n00:13:58,803 --> 00:14:05,724\n土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣\n\n37\n00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:56,575\n這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的怎麼會有不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然\n\n38\n00:14:57,475 --> 00:15:06,631\n我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還有是還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢你有感覺嗎\n\n39\n00:15:08,839 --> 00:15:27,829\n這很恐怖嘛你來前八十四年都健康健康的臨床是這樣阿你開的差不多跟健康差六個又加六個你們總共加起來是還有六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛對不對\n\n40\n00:15:28,749 --> 00:15:53,424\n所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利啦跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位\n\n41\n00:15:55,386 --> 00:16:02,772\n我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好我最後再請教部長\n\n42\n00:16:04,287 --> 00:16:23,870\n5天再延10天嘛淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應\n\n43\n00:16:25,762 --> 00:16:54,861\n那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不處之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動保價\n\n44\n00:16:56,042 --> 00:17:05,275\n要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦空肉飯嘛肉肉飯訂就對了\n\n45\n00:17:09,192 --> 00:17:34,872\n我跟委員報告您講的這七項本身那大致上應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說你想想有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話這個會來處理那解禁的部分我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個\n\n46\n00:17:36,893 --> 00:17:50,172\n進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度啦大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商齁\n\n47\n00:17:51,949 --> 00:18:08,079\n小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都在我們的方案裡面\n\n48\n00:18:08,499 --> 00:18:20,649\n因為葡萄園很清楚消防司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次到差不多八公斤之後就可以出來了對不對你現在五十五出他還給十五天的治療現在又給十五天的治療那這麼低的\n\n49\n00:18:24,412 --> 00:18:47,132\n會基建大廈啦基建大廈如果同樣地在大廈的環境下不要說地雷連人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛對不對好那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病甚至於死亡好那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套\n\n50\n00:18:48,193 --> 00:19:00,606\n來做因應甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對然後剛才15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊這地方的配套\n\n51\n00:19:12,369 --> 00:19:31,696\n我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節\n\n52\n00:19:34,038 --> 00:19:44,450\n好謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝部長辛苦謝謝主席好謝謝劉建國趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n575\t21611\t好 下一位請劉建和委員發言謝謝主席 先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好 部長辛苦了一早到現在 我想還是有人多忙點\n22333\t48360\t我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個非洲豬瘟這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲\n49625\t76943\t中央應該是要強力的去把他接管起來昨天這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講在暗場中像水桶 雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化 清除掉這是不是真的\n77996\t85029\t部長有掌握嗎 這個要請農業部他們那個 防潔局那就請部長 請陳部長這夠有屬性 這應該屬性吧\n91199\t110830\t對 這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒 再次檢查因為已經20天了\n112777\t124884\t對不起 從20號發生到現在嘛 對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題 還公開的來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛 對不對\n139005\t148276\t他佔的比例 全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系\n150871\t170444\t怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講喔就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的\n171024\t198392\t的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為要盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎\n201557\t225567\t教他們如何先移除雜物 然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告 你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成 完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消\n226568\t243062\t所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就是昨天那個潘玲周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛\n244402\t267107\t這不應該是這個樣子啊那顯然佔了全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣一個問題的存在嘛然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底嘛那你中央不強力介入你還要待何時還要待什麼樣的方式去做處理\n267267\t291029\t我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對\n292970\t313661\t就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講白一點甚至接管我們今天就會比較強力的去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論啦齁剛剛是針對清消然後\n317642\t341924\t因為部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿物荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀\n344998\t370209\t報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的這個規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度\n371610\t389876\t那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果嘛是 沒有錯嘛 沒錯 這裡都有蟲嘛對 他們都不可以這樣做嘛 沒錯副書長落後 結果是怎樣結果 結果從同意讓他們 就是就地掩埋\n391461\t415370\t因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果要依照你環境部的標準10公尺次10公尺的掩埋掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10乘10嗎很大 幾十米\n419672\t440527\t幾十米啊 就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時 現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理\n442248\t443028\t所以環境部\n463973\t484220\t不直接進駐 直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋 掩埋又變成文化就一日三變 還是幾天變一次那環境部的 環境部 環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊\n485922\t503785\t這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關督導機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達\n504806\t533380\t廚餘含水量高啦 我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用混化的這樣的一個方式對混化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害 甚至於混化不完全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上 也不一定啦那 我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀 一下子掩埋一下子要到混化爐去混化\n536374\t561855\t跟委員報告齁 因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的緊急的措施啦齁那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置 這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊 就是緊急應變嘛 對不對短期又進行應變 但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天 它就出頭十出啦\n565296\t587765\t所以剛剛有幾個委員 包含自民黨的委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消 連那個處理的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長 我覺得你可能要\n588985\t607308\t要承擔起更大的責任 不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議 我們的確是在思考這個問題啦因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的\n607748\t627432\t所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善啦麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接建築在這個地方不用回來備選了我講真的\n629893\t654913\t我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙\n655646\t681465\t我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來\n682305\t710127\t你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬他有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下他才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節他都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯聚了再利用情形\n710885\t737563\t他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已 環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農民水產省與他們的環境省花部會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起\n738703\t760250\t取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以 部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協議的合作來解決這個問題\n763331\t791499\t有很多事情啦是 因為部隊也要再接很多委員你們做部隊也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度 很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有 因為那個未來的挑戰很大啦我知道你們已經 我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到四多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打四多通不不不 這代表我們很密切啦\n793306\t814465\t就是密切啊 密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦 能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳副長講到是希望整個這個我們建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦 好不好就是\n816146\t835694\t兩個禮拜可以嗎 因為兩個禮拜還在 三個禮拜一個月好不好 您就很密切啊 哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的 一個月好不好是啦 不是跟你們很忙的 大家都很忙的好 補充車位一個月 補充車站補充一下喔 抱歉 陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市機場嗎\n838803\t845724\t土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣\n869240\t896575\t這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的怎麼會有不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人 合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然\n897475\t906631\t我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還有是還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢 你有感覺嗎\n908839\t927829\t這很恐怖嘛 你來前八十四年都健康 健康的臨床是這樣阿你開的 差不多跟健康差六個 又加六個你們總共加起來是 還有六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的 還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛 對不對\n928749\t953424\t所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好 可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利啦跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位\n955386\t962772\t我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好 我最後再請教部長\n964287\t983870\t5天再延10天嘛 淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應 包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應\n985762\t1014861\t那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不處之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛 當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動 保價\n1016042\t1025275\t要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商 這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦 空肉飯嘛 肉肉飯訂就對了\n1029192\t1054872\t我跟委員報告 您講的這七項本身那大致上 應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的 但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對 這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說 你想想有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話 這個會來處理那解禁的部分 我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個\n1056893\t1070172\t進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度啦大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商齁\n1071949\t1088079\t小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都在我們的方案裡面\n1088499\t1100649\t因為葡萄園很清楚 消防司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次到差不多八公斤之後就可以出來了對不對你現在五十五出他還給十五天的治療現在又給十五天的治療那這麼低的\n1104412\t1127132\t會基建大廈啦 基建大廈如果同樣地在大廈的環境下不要說地雷連人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛 對不對好 那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對 豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病 甚至於死亡好 那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套\n1128193\t1140606\t來做因應 甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對 然後剛才15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對 那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一 價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊 這地方的配套\n1152369\t1171696\t我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節\n1174038\t1184450\t好 謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝 部長辛苦謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國 趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答\n","txt":"好 下一位請劉建和委員發言謝謝主席 先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好 部長辛苦了一早到現在 我想還是有人多忙點\n我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個非洲豬瘟這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲\n中央應該是要強力的去把他接管起來昨天這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講在暗場中像水桶 雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化 清除掉這是不是真的\n部長有掌握嗎 這個要請農業部他們那個 防潔局那就請部長 請陳部長這夠有屬性 這應該屬性吧\n對 這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒 再次檢查因為已經20天了\n對不起 從20號發生到現在嘛 對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題 還公開的來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛 對不對\n他佔的比例 全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系\n怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講喔就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的\n的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為要盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎\n教他們如何先移除雜物 然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告 你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成 完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消\n所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就是昨天那個潘玲周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛\n這不應該是這個樣子啊那顯然佔了全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣一個問題的存在嘛然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底嘛那你中央不強力介入你還要待何時還要待什麼樣的方式去做處理\n我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對\n就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講白一點甚至接管我們今天就會比較強力的去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論啦齁剛剛是針對清消然後\n因為部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿物荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀\n報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的這個規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度\n那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果嘛是 沒有錯嘛 沒錯 這裡都有蟲嘛對 他們都不可以這樣做嘛 沒錯副書長落後 結果是怎樣結果 結果從同意讓他們 就是就地掩埋\n因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果要依照你環境部的標準10公尺次10公尺的掩埋掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10乘10嗎很大 幾十米\n幾十米啊 就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時 現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理\n所以環境部\n不直接進駐 直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋 掩埋又變成文化就一日三變 還是幾天變一次那環境部的 環境部 環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊\n這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關督導機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達\n廚餘含水量高啦 我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用混化的這樣的一個方式對混化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害 甚至於混化不完全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上 也不一定啦那 我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀 一下子掩埋一下子要到混化爐去混化\n跟委員報告齁 因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的緊急的措施啦齁那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置 這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊 就是緊急應變嘛 對不對短期又進行應變 但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天 它就出頭十出啦\n所以剛剛有幾個委員 包含自民黨的委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消 連那個處理的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長 我覺得你可能要\n要承擔起更大的責任 不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議 我們的確是在思考這個問題啦因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的\n所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善啦麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接建築在這個地方不用回來備選了我講真的\n我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙\n我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來\n你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬他有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下他才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節他都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯聚了再利用情形\n他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已 環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農民水產省與他們的環境省花部會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起\n取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以 部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協議的合作來解決這個問題\n有很多事情啦是 因為部隊也要再接很多委員你們做部隊也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度 很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有 因為那個未來的挑戰很大啦我知道你們已經 我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到四多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打四多通不不不 這代表我們很密切啦\n就是密切啊 密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦 能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳副長講到是希望整個這個我們建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦 好不好就是\n兩個禮拜可以嗎 因為兩個禮拜還在 三個禮拜一個月好不好 您就很密切啊 哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的 一個月好不好是啦 不是跟你們很忙的 大家都很忙的好 補充車位一個月 補充車站補充一下喔 抱歉 陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市機場嗎\n土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣\n這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的怎麼會有不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人 合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然\n我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還有是還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢 你有感覺嗎\n這很恐怖嘛 你來前八十四年都健康 健康的臨床是這樣阿你開的 差不多跟健康差六個 又加六個你們總共加起來是 還有六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的 還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛 對不對\n所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好 可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利啦跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位\n我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好 我最後再請教部長\n5天再延10天嘛 淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應 包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應\n那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不處之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛 當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動 保價\n要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商 這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦 空肉飯嘛 肉肉飯訂就對了\n我跟委員報告 您講的這七項本身那大致上 應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的 但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對 這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說 你想想有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話 這個會來處理那解禁的部分 我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個\n進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度啦大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商齁\n小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都在我們的方案裡面\n因為葡萄園很清楚 消防司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次到差不多八公斤之後就可以出來了對不對你現在五十五出他還給十五天的治療現在又給十五天的治療那這麼低的\n會基建大廈啦 基建大廈如果同樣地在大廈的環境下不要說地雷連人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛 對不對好 那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對 豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病 甚至於死亡好 那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套\n來做因應 甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對 然後剛才15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對 那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一 價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊 這地方的配套\n我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節\n好 謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝 部長辛苦謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國 趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.575 --> 00:21.611\n好下一位請劉建和委員發言謝謝主席先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好部長辛苦了一早到現在我想還是有人多忙點\n\n00:22.333 --> 00:48.360\n我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個非洲豬瘟這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲\n\n00:49.625 --> 01:16.943\n中央應該是要強力的去把他接管起來昨天這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講在暗場中像水桶雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化清除掉這是不是真的\n\n01:17.996 --> 01:25.029\n部長有掌握嗎這個要請農業部他們那個防潔局那就請部長請陳部長這夠有屬性這應該屬性吧\n\n01:31.199 --> 01:50.830\n對這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒再次檢查因為已經20天了\n\n01:52.777 --> 02:04.884\n對不起從20號發生到現在嘛對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題還公開的來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛對不對\n\n02:19.005 --> 02:28.276\n他佔的比例全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系\n\n02:30.871 --> 02:50.444\n怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講喔就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的\n\n02:51.024 --> 03:18.392\n的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為要盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎\n\n03:21.557 --> 03:45.567\n教他們如何先移除雜物然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消\n\n03:46.568 --> 04:03.062\n所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就是昨天那個潘玲周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛\n\n04:04.402 --> 04:27.107\n這不應該是這個樣子啊那顯然佔了全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣一個問題的存在嘛然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底嘛那你中央不強力介入你還要待何時還要待什麼樣的方式去做處理\n\n04:27.267 --> 04:51.029\n我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對\n\n04:52.970 --> 05:13.661\n就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講白一點甚至接管我們今天就會比較強力的去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論啦齁剛剛是針對清消然後\n\n05:17.642 --> 05:41.924\n因為部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿物荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀\n\n05:44.998 --> 06:10.209\n報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的這個規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度\n\n06:11.610 --> 06:29.876\n那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果嘛是沒有錯嘛沒錯這裡都有蟲嘛對他們都不可以這樣做嘛沒錯副書長落後結果是怎樣結果結果從同意讓他們就是就地掩埋\n\n06:31.461 --> 06:55.370\n因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果要依照你環境部的標準10公尺次10公尺的掩埋掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10乘10嗎很大幾十米\n\n06:59.672 --> 07:20.527\n幾十米啊就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理\n\n07:22.248 --> 07:23.028\n所以環境部\n\n07:43.973 --> 08:04.220\n不直接進駐直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋掩埋又變成文化就一日三變還是幾天變一次那環境部的環境部環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊\n\n08:05.922 --> 08:23.785\n這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關督導機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達\n\n08:24.806 --> 08:53.380\n廚餘含水量高啦我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用混化的這樣的一個方式對混化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害甚至於混化不完全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上也不一定啦那我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀一下子掩埋一下子要到混化爐去混化\n\n08:56.374 --> 09:21.855\n跟委員報告齁因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的緊急的措施啦齁那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊就是緊急應變嘛對不對短期又進行應變但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天它就出頭十出啦\n\n09:25.296 --> 09:47.765\n所以剛剛有幾個委員包含自民黨的委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消連那個處理的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長我覺得你可能要\n\n09:48.985 --> 10:07.308\n要承擔起更大的責任不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議我們的確是在思考這個問題啦因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的\n\n10:07.748 --> 10:27.432\n所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善啦麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接建築在這個地方不用回來備選了我講真的\n\n10:29.893 --> 10:54.913\n我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙\n\n10:55.646 --> 11:21.465\n我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來\n\n11:22.305 --> 11:50.127\n你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬他有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下他才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節他都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯聚了再利用情形\n\n11:50.885 --> 12:17.563\n他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農民水產省與他們的環境省花部會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起\n\n12:18.703 --> 12:40.250\n取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協議的合作來解決這個問題\n\n12:43.331 --> 13:11.499\n有很多事情啦是因為部隊也要再接很多委員你們做部隊也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有因為那個未來的挑戰很大啦我知道你們已經我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到四多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打四多通不不不這代表我們很密切啦\n\n13:13.306 --> 13:34.465\n就是密切啊密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳副長講到是希望整個這個我們建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦好不好就是\n\n13:36.146 --> 13:55.694\n兩個禮拜可以嗎因為兩個禮拜還在三個禮拜一個月好不好您就很密切啊哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的一個月好不好是啦不是跟你們很忙的大家都很忙的好補充車位一個月補充車站補充一下喔抱歉陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市機場嗎\n\n13:58.803 --> 14:05.724\n土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣\n\n14:29.240 --> 14:56.575\n這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的怎麼會有不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然\n\n14:57.475 --> 15:06.631\n我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還有是還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢你有感覺嗎\n\n15:08.839 --> 15:27.829\n這很恐怖嘛你來前八十四年都健康健康的臨床是這樣阿你開的差不多跟健康差六個又加六個你們總共加起來是還有六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛對不對\n\n15:28.749 --> 15:53.424\n所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利啦跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位\n\n15:55.386 --> 16:02.772\n我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好我最後再請教部長\n\n16:04.287 --> 16:23.870\n5天再延10天嘛淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應\n\n16:25.762 --> 16:54.861\n那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不處之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動保價\n\n16:56.042 --> 17:05.275\n要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦空肉飯嘛肉肉飯訂就對了\n\n17:09.192 --> 17:34.872\n我跟委員報告您講的這七項本身那大致上應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說你想想有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話這個會來處理那解禁的部分我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個\n\n17:36.893 --> 17:50.172\n進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度啦大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商齁\n\n17:51.949 --> 18:08.079\n小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都在我們的方案裡面\n\n18:08.499 --> 18:20.649\n因為葡萄園很清楚消防司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次到差不多八公斤之後就可以出來了對不對你現在五十五出他還給十五天的治療現在又給十五天的治療那這麼低的\n\n18:24.412 --> 18:47.132\n會基建大廈啦基建大廈如果同樣地在大廈的環境下不要說地雷連人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛對不對好那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病甚至於死亡好那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套\n\n18:48.193 --> 19:00.606\n來做因應甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對然後剛才15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊這地方的配套\n\n19:12.369 --> 19:31.696\n我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節\n\n19:34.038 --> 19:44.450\n好謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝部長辛苦謝謝主席好謝謝劉建國趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.575,"end":21.611,"text":"好 下一位請劉建和委員發言謝謝主席 先請彭部長有請彭部長委員好部長好 部長辛苦了一早到現在 我想還是有人多忙點"},{"start":22.333,"end":48.36,"text":"我聽起來的感覺是這樣那我簡單講說27號的時候這個非洲豬瘟這個被發現的養豬場有在驗出兩處的環境病毒顯示是陽性那台中市又匆匆忙忙的去加強消毒然後這種事一再發生實在會讓人家感到非常憤怒我覺得這個要徹底的去要求甚至以強力的去介入因為清消不是兒戲"},{"start":49.625,"end":76.943,"text":"中央應該是要強力的去把他接管起來昨天這個中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了全國的所有這些應該是協會的幹部代表各縣市的來拜訪不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關的同仁又特別指出公開的講在暗場中像水桶 雨鞋等器具物品都還留在現場沒有立即焚化 清除掉這是不是真的"},{"start":77.996,"end":85.029,"text":"部長有掌握嗎 這個要請農業部他們那個 防潔局那就請部長 請陳部長這夠有屬性 這應該屬性吧"},{"start":91.199,"end":110.83,"text":"對 這是事實這也是為什麼我們認為他們在做第一階段疫場的消毒是最重要的但是並沒有落實消毒這個部分因為招槍的規定這些東西都要去做銷毀的部分所以我們也要求市政府這邊要盡速的再次消毒 再次檢查因為已經20天了"},{"start":112.777,"end":124.884,"text":"對不起 從20號發生到現在嘛 對不對到昨天還讓潘理事長到國會殿堂再拜會相關黨團是為了因應整個養豬產業受到後續的這樣的衝擊嘛然後還發覺到這問題 還公開的來訴諸媒體我覺得這個台中養豬應該我記得好像是八萬多頭嘛 對不對"},{"start":139.005,"end":148.276,"text":"他佔的比例 全國的比例是非常少的喔這是第一件事情那第二件事情那邊有一所大學國立的中興大學也有畜牧系"},{"start":150.871,"end":170.444,"text":"怎麼會有這種事情一而再再而三的發生部長要不要請中興大學畜牧區過去那邊協助他們不然大家會疲於奔命去做這相關的因應吧我跟委員講喔就是說台中市政府這些利是要掉的有一些餘地我們一再也特別請專家專家的會議的小組的"},{"start":171.024,"end":198.392,"text":"的老師或成員來協助他們去做進行必要的疫調這個部分我們都做了所以我們為了搶時間我們可能要有另外一個作為要盡速的把這個這個必須釐清的趕快釐清這個我們會來處理盡速做疫調這是基本你知道剛剛的黃衣記者會你知道中央的後勤組還在教台中市政府怎麼如何做這快速的清消你們有掌握嗎"},{"start":201.557,"end":225.567,"text":"教他們如何先移除雜物 然後由上而下的清消方式我跟委員報告 你剛才一開始的照片就是說我們認為他已經完成 完整的清消我們是做第二輪的環境的檢測結果一開門以後發現到他裡面都是亂七八糟的沒有去做好我們的完整的清消所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消"},{"start":226.568,"end":243.062,"text":"所以你自己答覆我就講得很清楚嘛第一次的傾銷已經完成了那代表第一次的傾銷完成但不完整嘛應該是這麼說嘛所以才有勞27號就是昨天那個潘玲周理事長來國會殿堂特別再提到這個事情嘛"},{"start":244.402,"end":267.107,"text":"這不應該是這個樣子啊那顯然佔了全國八萬多頭的一個台中市政府在管理整個畜牧場本身就有很嚴重的這樣一個問題的存在嘛然後遇到這樣的事情的緊急因應連一個清消到現在都沒有辦法做得非常徹底嘛那你中央不強力介入你還要待何時還要待什麼樣的方式去做處理"},{"start":267.267,"end":291.029,"text":"我想我們今天就會有一些作為就是來更快速因為我們在跟時間賽跑所以我們今天應該有一個作為就是能夠更積極的我們就是在跟時間賽跑才不可能說完整的去清消但是卻清消不完全就不容許這樣的事情發生啊絕對不容許啦對啊那這就發生了對"},{"start":292.97,"end":313.661,"text":"就發生了啊所以你專案就必須要強力的介入嘛強力的看怎麼去講白一點甚至接管我們今天就會比較強力的去處理這個疫調相關的這個工作包括這個案場本身的這些所有的關聯跟調查的部分我們今天就會來處理好部長你先請回好不好我先針對環境部來討論啦齁剛剛是針對清消然後"},{"start":317.642,"end":341.924,"text":"因為部長剛剛有答覆幾個問題啦二十四日的時候我們這個台中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆毀的方法嘛對不對然後在藍屯的文山掩埋場後梨沙鹿物荒等設置廚餘緊急堆毀地點嘛我們從當然是從媒體的報導裡面去看看到照片看到影片台中市政府就是挖一個洞嘛然後就是往廚餘就是把廚餘往裡面倒嘛這個堆毀"},{"start":344.998,"end":370.209,"text":"報告委員這個是不可以的所以我們那天禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他我們那個副署長有到現場我們中央怎麼容許這種事情讓它一再發生你們堆毀有相關的一些基本的這個規範嘛對不對堆積廠的基礎結構要防腐抗死材料的表面地表要有防護的設備以及污染防治設備另外發酵中心溫度必須要在45到70度"},{"start":371.61,"end":389.876,"text":"那時間還要控制在五十度至少七天以防止這個蟲卵病菌達到殺菌的效果嘛是 沒有錯嘛 沒錯 這裡都有蟲嘛對 他們都不可以這樣做嘛 沒錯副書長落後 結果是怎樣結果 結果從同意讓他們 就是就地掩埋"},{"start":391.461,"end":415.37,"text":"因為他說他是堆肥廠啦他說他做堆肥啦可是他在掩埋場裡面做堆肥就不符合委員提到這個這個標準所以我們就要求他要改善啦就是胡搞瞎搞嘛對不對胡搞瞎搞之後如果要依照你環境部的標準10公尺次10公尺的掩埋掩埋坑進行掩埋且除以每日到近0.5公尺就必須要護土啊然後台中市的坑有10乘10嗎很大 幾十米"},{"start":419.672,"end":440.527,"text":"幾十米啊 就不符合標準啊那不符合標準的時候副組長下去之後是做怎麼樣的一個督導要求他們怎麼樣做力氣的改善時差一時 現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米這麼大的一個場域裡面已經不符合你們的規範了啊你們應怎麼處理"},{"start":442.248,"end":443.028,"text":"所以環境部"},{"start":463.973,"end":484.22,"text":"不直接進駐 直接強力的去督促督導這事情會從堆毀變掩埋 掩埋又變成文化就一日三變 還是幾天變一次那環境部的 環境部 環境部辦理的角色又是什麼我會覺得就很納悶了啊"},{"start":485.922,"end":503.785,"text":"這就有問題啊我們是這個督導的一個機關督導機關這樣就是有督不導啊有有有我們就希望他改善我們希望他改善然後甚至如果說你這個沒有辦法做好是不是需要一些我們的幫忙我們都主動向他們提出一個這樣的一個表達"},{"start":504.806,"end":533.38,"text":"廚餘含水量高啦 我們都很清楚嘛他其實去利用混化的這樣的一個方式對混化爐造成的這樣的一個傷害 甚至於混化不完全然後溫度會下降到可能百度以上 也不一定啦那 我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許台中市政府去做這樣廚餘的處置方式一下子堆毀 一下子掩埋一下子要到混化爐去混化"},{"start":536.374,"end":561.855,"text":"跟委員報告齁 因為這個到掩埋場或是到焚化場都是一個緊急的緊急的措施啦齁那因為現在台中市它的一個整個一個堆灰廠的一個量能也不夠所以才用這個緊急的一個方式來處置 這個是短期那長期的話應該就是朝比較正常的管道去我當然是知道短期啊 就是緊急應變嘛 對不對短期又進行應變 但是它的短期又緊急應變這七天 它就出頭十出啦"},{"start":565.296,"end":587.765,"text":"所以剛剛有幾個委員 包含自民黨的委員都對環境部有不一樣的一個要求跟看法嘛所以我才想說你還要繼續這樣下去連那個清消 連那個處理的一個緊急應變的處置方式都可以這樣的一個七天內這麼多的一個變化部長 我覺得你可能要"},{"start":588.985,"end":607.308,"text":"要承擔起更大的責任 不然這個事情謝謝委員的建議 我們的確是在思考這個問題啦因為他們的這個方法或量能是不是有一些狀況但是因為也跟委員報告因為包含他的整個掩埋的措施或是各種的這個機具都是地方政府的"},{"start":607.748,"end":627.432,"text":"所以未來我們也今天早上特別請我們署長到台中希望可以跟他們協商一下到底需要什麼樣的幫忙我們要如何去幫忙他們能夠解決這個事的問題我們主動的去希望可以來改善啦麻煩啦好不好就直接應該是副署長就直接建築在這個地方不用回來備選了我講真的"},{"start":629.893,"end":654.913,"text":"我講真的不然明天又有什麼事情發生你還是要再下去不過因為報告委員喔因為像我們在花蓮的時候也有這個經驗我們基本上都是第一線在處理可是台中其實它是不一樣的它這個掩埋場各種的設施都是環保局在直接去處理的那到底我們可以協助幫忙到多少這個在法規上面我們還要再確認一下那我們的確有在想思考這個事情如何幫台中市民的忙"},{"start":655.646,"end":681.465,"text":"我覺得現在對不起部長可能要請你修正你的說法這不叫做幫忙了因為這種事情如果再讓他有這種擴大的傷害的情況之下我想只要是政府單位沒有一個人可以可以推卸這樣的一個責任對不對所以我是希望可能該主動的該積極介入的中央應該承擔起更大的責任來面對這個事情好不好然後再來"},{"start":682.305,"end":710.127,"text":"你看2018年全球爆發這個非洲豬瘟嘛那台灣有些地方是禁足於養豬啦但是禁足於養豬他有一定程度的這樣的一個配套跟條件的情況之下他才有辦法做我們要講永續我們要講整個循環每一個環節他都必須要有一定的條件跟建制嘛然後你看日本我們剛剛很多委員都講講到依照日本日本獵人的這個食品業匯聚了再利用情形"},{"start":710.885,"end":737.563,"text":"他還訂了一套叫食品回收法這個事情怎麼是農業部去取信而已 環境部怎麼不用去日本食品回收法是農民水產省與他們的環境省花部會共同來組織建立一個非常嚴謹的落實食品回收並且製成這安全優質的畜牧飼料所以我覺得環境部是不是應該跟農業部一起"},{"start":738.703,"end":760.25,"text":"取經研究把這樣相關的一個制度透過法律制定出來可不可以 部長謝謝委員可以喔因為疫情開始第一天這個清晨陳部長打電話給我我跟他每天都通電話十幾通喔所以我跟他們是非常暢通會來處理的那這個問題呢我相信我們環境部跟農業部會協議的合作來解決這個問題"},{"start":763.331,"end":791.499,"text":"有很多事情啦是 因為部隊也要再接很多委員你們做部隊也要再接很多委員在台內你們兩個同時幾通這代表很多制度 很多行為都處理得不是太順利喔不然有需要經常打多少通沒有 因為那個未來的挑戰很大啦我知道你們已經 我知道你們已經很忙了啦但是你先從打到打到四多通那代表溝通也不是很順暢那個彼此對事情的認知可能落差也蠻蠻恐怖的才會造成一天要打四多通不不不 這代表我們很密切啦"},{"start":793.306,"end":814.465,"text":"就是密切啊 密切過度了有些事情可能就很難推了所以這個部分是不是一個星期內啦 能不能給我們一個當然剛剛陳副長講到是希望整個這個我們建宅的15天過後整個疫情解除之後來處理啦但是我還是希望可以加快啦 好不好就是"},{"start":816.146,"end":835.694,"text":"兩個禮拜可以嗎 因為兩個禮拜還在 三個禮拜一個月好不好 您就很密切啊 哪有差因為我跟很多同事也很忙的 一個月好不好是啦 不是跟你們很忙的 大家都很忙的好 補充車位一個月 補充車站補充一下喔 抱歉 陳部長陳部長知道全國投胎廠現在有供給市市機場嗎"},{"start":838.803,"end":845.724,"text":"土宅場沒有記錯的話55場養雞養鴨養牛177嘛對不對那177你知道114年度的時候我們禁用有這個受惠17人助理14人合計31人但114年離職受惠有11人助理26人合計37人我掌握到數字這數字正不正確怎麼會這樣"},{"start":869.24,"end":896.575,"text":"這個數字根據我們同仁說是正確的怎麼會有不到一個年度你只11個獸醫然後助理26個人 合計37人這個就是我們一直在對獸醫師本身因為現在獸醫師你可以去當寵物醫院的醫師那相對他的薪水比較高但是對經濟動物的這些獸醫師的話相對的工作比較辛苦所以我們也一直積極爭取他的一個不開業獎金的部分但是顯然"},{"start":897.475,"end":906.631,"text":"我們從高考端是有增加啦但是在限職端的部分可能還有是還是有比較高的離職率這怎麼是討論潮呢 你有感覺嗎"},{"start":908.839,"end":927.829,"text":"這很恐怖嘛 你來前八十四年都健康 健康的臨床是這樣阿你開的 差不多跟健康差六個 又加六個你們總共加起來是 還有六個那這樣可能我們在整個防疫的 還是預防的情況之下都會有很大的挑戰嘛 對不對"},{"start":928.749,"end":953.424,"text":"所以就要請部長可能是不是短時間內也一樣吧一個月內能不能提出相關的一些改善報告好 可以吧我們這個把這個相關的改善可能我們要特別重視這種不管是養殖場還是屠宰場的獸醫師的相關人員的福利啦跟他們的一些制度上的一個保障這不只是獸醫師其實針對畜牧的公職的人員現在都很怕很怕進到公職單位"},{"start":955.386,"end":962.772,"text":"我講這是一個系統性的問題我們必須要嚴肅的面對啦好 我最後再請教部長"},{"start":964.287,"end":983.87,"text":"5天再延10天嘛 淨運淨宅那一定會造成整個養豬戀的很大的衝擊嘛那昨天我們有跟我們有跟市長等相關農政單位的這些長官有開過會那我們也適時的反應 包含這個盤里市長都來了嘛特別提出了一些反應"},{"start":985.762,"end":1014.861,"text":"那我們知道當然已經有研擬一些配套來做因應嘛這幾項你看還有什麼不處之處就是禁運禁載期間的飼料補助嘛停載期間的這個屠宰性的租金停載期間的人事及勞務費用相關的攤商人員收入損失還有在這期間使用的租資補貼15日如果順利解禁到時15天禁運禁載的租一口氣釋出嘛 當然不可能啦也會造成這個價格的波動 保價"},{"start":1016.042,"end":1025.275,"text":"要怎麼去做一個調解跟應應嘛然後還有使用豬肉的這個小吃攤商 這應該屬於經濟部的肉雞啦 空肉飯嘛 肉肉飯訂就對了"},{"start":1029.192,"end":1054.872,"text":"我跟委員報告 您講的這七項本身那大致上 應該是不計啦大致上跟我們的 但是這邊要稍微說明在這段時間死亡的豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦對 這個前提我們到時候幫案出來不是說 你想想有事我就報啦可能有一些前提的話 這個會來處理那解禁的部分 我們現在沒有辦法去做保駕但是我們一定是會讓這個"},{"start":1056.893,"end":1070.172,"text":"進到批發市場的次序要維持然後確保它的一個價格的穩定以這個為目標之下去做所有的可能的調度啦大概會這樣子那最後豬肉的小吃攤商齁"},{"start":1071.949,"end":1088.079,"text":"小吃攤商這個現在還在討論因為小吃攤他可能只有有賣豬肉的有賣雞肉的有賣什麼的在處理上是很難去界定的不過我想大部分的這個部分都是委員這邊建議我想我們都在我們的方案裡面"},{"start":1088.499,"end":1100.649,"text":"因為葡萄園很清楚 消防司長也很清楚那天我也在那邊說你原本你第一次到差不多八公斤之後就可以出來了對不對你現在五十五出他還給十五天的治療現在又給十五天的治療那這麼低的"},{"start":1104.412,"end":1127.132,"text":"會基建大廈啦 基建大廈如果同樣地在大廈的環境下不要說地雷連人也同樣地移水對不對我們這邊如果人比較多空氣汙染就會提高了嘛 對不對好 那到時候可能會有擠壓擠破對不對 豬也會因為這樣子躁動生病 甚至於死亡好 那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套"},{"start":1128.193,"end":1140.606,"text":"來做因應 甚至於支持這些養豬戶嘛對不對 然後剛才15天拍賣的時候那個豬已經變得原本不是一般我們在拍賣豬的特別想要選擇這樣的一個段位啦對 那個價格一定會不一樣嘛會往下掉嘛第一 價格比較高但是價格稍微會下跌就對了對啊 這地方的配套"},{"start":1152.369,"end":1171.696,"text":"我想我們在租現在禁運的時間我們會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼然後後來以後出租的時候重量越大它的單價越低所以我們會維持一個基本的一個監控價那在這個監控價以下的時候我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節"},{"start":1174.038,"end":1184.45,"text":"好 謝謝就請部長盡量把讓這些相關的養豬的產業的這樣的一個損害可以降到最低的好不好謝謝 部長辛苦謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國 趙偉的發言也謝謝部長們的回答"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1177,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時42分）謝謝主席，先請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長辛苦了，從一早備詢到現在，但我想還是有很多盲點，我聽起來的感覺是這樣。我簡單講，27日的時候，這個被發現有非洲豬瘟的養豬場，再驗出兩處環境病毒顯示陽性，臺中市政府又匆匆忙忙去加強消毒，這種事一再發生，實在讓人感到非常憤怒。我覺得這部分要澈底要求，甚至是強力介入，因為清消不是兒戲嘛！中央應該要強力接管。","昨天中華民國養豬協會的潘理事長帶了協會幹部，代表各縣市的豬農來拜訪，不管是民進黨團還是國民黨團的立院相關同仁，又特別指出，這是他們公開講的喔！在案場中，像水桶、雨鞋等器具、物品都還留在現場，沒有立即焚化、清除。這是不是真的？部長有掌握嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要請農業部防檢署說明。"],["劉委員建國：請陳部長。這件事屬實嗎？應該屬實吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是事實。我們認為第一階段疫場消毒是最重要的，但是他們並沒有落實消毒這個部分，因為照現在的規定，這些東西都要銷毀，所以我們也要求市政府要儘速再次消毒、再次檢查。"],["劉委員建國：這件事是20日發生的，對不對？昨天潘理事長到國會殿堂拜會相關黨團，就是為了因應整個養豬產業受到的後續衝擊，他們還發覺這個問題並公開訴諸媒體。我記得臺中養的豬隻數量好像是八萬多頭，對不對？他們占的全國比例是非常少的，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，那邊有一所大學，國立中興大學也有畜牧系，怎麼會讓這種事情一而再、再而三的發生？部長要不要請中興大學畜牧系過去協助他們？不然大家會疲於奔命做相關因應。"],["陳部長駿季：臺中市政府這次疫調有一些疑慮，我們也特別請專家會議小組的老師或成員協助他們進行必要的疫調，這個部分我們都做了。我們為了搶時間，可能要有另外一個作為，要把必須釐清的部分趕快釐清，這個部分我們會處理。"],["劉委員建國：儘速做疫調是基本的。剛剛的防疫記者會，中央的後勤組還在教臺中市政府如何做快速清消，你們有掌握嗎？就是教他們如何先移除雜物，然後由上而下的清消。"],["陳部長駿季：你剛才一開始出示的照片，就是我們認為他們已經完成完整的清消，接著做第二輪的環境檢測，結果一開門就發現裡面亂七八糟，沒有做好完整的清消，所以才會再去教他們怎麼樣做清消。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！部長，所以你自己答復時就講的很清楚嘛！第一次的清消已經完成了，代表第一次的清消雖然完成，但是不完整嘛！應該是這麼說。"],["陳部長駿季：對，是。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！所以昨天27日，才有勞潘連周理事長來國會殿堂，還特別提到這個事情嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：不應該是這個樣子啊！顯然轄區內養了八萬多頭豬隻的臺中市政府，在管理整個畜牧場時有很嚴重的問題存在嘛！遇到這種事情該做的緊急因應，連清消到現在都沒有辦法做的非常澈底嘛！這時候中央不強力介入，還要待何時？還要用什麼方式去處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我們今天就會有一些作為，會更快速的處理，因為我們在跟時間賽跑，所以今天應該就會有所作為，也要更積極去了解。"],["劉委員建國：我們就是在跟時間賽跑，本來應該完整的清消，但是卻清消不完全，不應該容許這樣的事情發生啊！"],["陳部長駿季：絕對不容許啦！"],["劉委員建國：對啊！但是就是發生了，所以中央必須強力介入，講白一點就是接管嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。我們今天會比較強力去處理疫調的相關工作，包括和這個案場所有的關聯和調查，我們今天就會處理。"],["劉委員建國：好。部長先請回，好不好？我先針對環境部討論。剛剛是針對清消，因為彭部長剛才有答復幾個問題，24日的時候，臺中市政府有提出挖坑掩埋堆肥的方法，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：在南屯的文山掩埋場，后里、沙鹿、霧峰等地設置廚餘緊急堆肥地點，我們當然是從媒體報導看到照片、影片，臺中市政府就是挖一個洞，然後把廚餘往裡面倒，這個叫做堆肥？"],["彭部長啓明：這是不可以的。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們禮拜天的時候就有特別提醒他們，我們副署長也有到現場去看。"],["劉委員建國：中央怎麼容許讓這種事情一再發生？堆肥有相關的基本規範，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：堆肥場的基礎結構必須是防腐、抗蝕材料的表面，地表要有防護以及污染防治設備，另外堆肥的中心溫度必須在45度到70度之間，還要控制在50度以上至少7天，以有效殺死蟲卵、病菌，達到殺菌的效果。沒有錯吧？這邊都有寫嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：是，沒錯，對。"],["劉委員建國：但他們都沒有這樣做嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：副署長下去看了之後，結果怎麼樣？結果就是同意讓他們就地掩埋？"],["彭部長啓明：因為他們說那是堆肥場啦！他們是做堆肥。可是他們在掩埋場裡面做堆肥，不符合委員提到的這個標準，所以我們要求他們改善。"],["劉委員建國：就是胡搞瞎搞嘛！對不對？如果依照環境部的標準，是要以10公尺乘以10公尺的掩埋坑進行掩埋，且廚餘每日倒入深度0.5公尺就必須覆土，臺中市的坑有10公尺乘以10公尺嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：很大，有好幾十米。"],["劉委員建國：有幾十米！這樣就是不符合標準啊！在不符合標準的狀況下，副署長下去看了之後是做什麼樣的督導？要求他們怎麼做立即改善？照規定是10公尺乘以10公尺，現在部長在委員會公開講是好幾十米，這麼大的場域並不符合你們的規範，你們應該怎麼處理？"],["林副署長左祥：那天我有下去看，主要是因為他們說是堆肥，但是因為不符合我們堆肥場的規範，所以他們同意改為掩埋。如果是掩埋，昨天我們也有同仁下去查核，他們也是不符合掩埋的規範，所以我們也請他們要做改善。"],["劉委員建國：所以如果環境部不直接進駐，直接強力督促、督導，這件事情會從堆肥變掩埋，掩埋又變成焚化，是一日三變？還是幾天變一次？環境部扮演的角色又是什麼？我覺得很納悶，這樣就是有問題啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們是督導的機關，他……"],["劉委員建國：我知道你們是督導機關，但這樣就是有督不導啊！"],["彭部長啓明：有，我們希望他們改善。"],["劉委員建國：有督？也導了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望他們改善。甚至如果你們這個部分沒有辦法做好，是不是需要我們幫忙？這一點我們也有主動向他們表達。"],["劉委員建國：廚餘含水量高，這點我們都很清楚嘛！如果用焚化的方式，可能對焚化爐造成傷害，甚至是焚化不完全，溫度可能會下降到百度以上，這些都不一定啦！我不清楚為什麼環境部可以容許臺中市政府做這樣的廚餘處置方式，一下子堆肥，一下子掩埋，一下子要送到焚化爐焚化？"],["林副署長左祥：送到掩埋場或是焚化場都是一個緊急措施啦！因為現在臺中市的推肥場量能也不夠，所以才用這樣的緊急方式處置，這是短期的，長期應該就是朝比較正常的管道處理。"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道是短期啊！就是緊急應變嘛！對不對？就是短期再加上緊急應變，但是他們的短期緊急應變，這7天是花樣百出，搞的非常複雜。所以剛剛有幾個委員提問，包含執政黨的委員，都對環境部有不一樣的要求和看法嘛！所以我才在想，你們還要讓他們繼續這樣下去嗎？連清消、廚餘的緊急應變處置方式，都可以在7天內有這麼多變化。部長，我覺得你可能要承擔起更大的責任，不然這個事情……"],["彭部長啓明：也謝謝委員的建議，我們的確是在思考這個問題，他們的方法或量能是不是有一些狀況。但是也要向委員報告，因為包含掩埋措施或是各種機具，都是地方政府的職責，我今天早上也特別請署長到臺中，希望可以和他們協商一下，到底他們需要什麼樣的幫忙？我們要如何幫忙他們解決這次的問題？我們會主動去問，希望可以改善。"],["劉委員建國：麻煩啦！好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：會的。"],["劉委員建國：應該是由副署長直接進駐這個地方，不用回來備詢，我講真的！不然明天可能又有什麼事情發生，你還是要再下去。"],["彭部長啓明：是。因為像我們在花蓮也有這樣的經驗，基本上都是第一線在處理，可是臺中不一樣，他們的掩埋場及各種設施都是環保局直接處理，我們到底可以協助、幫忙多少？在法規上面，我們還要再確認一下，但我們的確有在思考這個事情，就是如何幫臺中市民的忙。"],["劉委員建國：對不起，部長，可能要請你修正你的說法，這不叫幫忙，因為這種事情如果再讓它擴大傷害，我想只要是政府單位，沒有人可以推卸這樣的責任，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以我希望該主動、該積極介入的，中央應該承擔起更大的責任，要去面對這個事情，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是，好。"],["劉委員建國：再來，2018年全球爆發非洲豬瘟，臺灣有些地方是禁廚餘養豬啦！但是禁廚餘養豬，必須在一定程度的配套和條件之下才有辦法做。我們要講永續，我們要講循環，每一個環節都必須有一定的條件和建置嘛！你看日本，剛剛很多委員都講到日本，看看日本歷年食品業廢棄物的再利用情形，他們還訂了一套法律叫食品回收法，這個事情怎麼會只有農業部去取經而已，環境部為什麼不用去？","日本食品回收法是農林水產省與環境省跨部會共同主責，他們建立一個非常嚴謹的制度落實食品回收，並且製成安全優質的畜牧飼料。所以我覺得環境部是不是應該和農業部一起取經、研究，透過法律制定相關制度？部長，可不可以？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，可以。疫情開始的第一天，清晨時陳部長就打電話給我，我和他每天都打十幾通電話，我和他們的聯繫非常暢通，也會協助處理，我相信環境部和農業部會鼎力合作解決這個問題。"],["劉委員建國：如果你們一天打十幾通電話，事情都不用做了，這樣也很辛苦。"],["彭部長啓明：有很多事情啦！很可憐啦！"],["劉委員建國：因為部長也要接很多委員的電話，如果你們兩個又要打十幾通電話，這樣代表很多制度、很多工作都處理的不是很順利喔！不然怎麼需要打那麼多通電話？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有！因為未來的挑戰很大啦！所以我們……"],["劉委員建國：我知道你們已經很忙了，但是如果你們每天還要打十多通電話，代表溝通也不是很順暢，彼此對事情的認知，可能落差也滿大的，才會一天打十多通電話。"],["彭部長啓明：不是的！這代表我們聯繫的很密切啦！"],["劉委員建國：就是密切過度了，有些事情可能就很難推動。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有啦！"],["劉委員建國：所以這個部分一個星期內能不能給我們一份報告？當然，剛剛陳部長有講到，希望等禁運禁宰15天過後，整個疫情解除之後再來處理，但我還是希望可以加快啦！好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：兩個禮拜，可以吧？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為兩個禮拜還在……"],["劉委員建國：三個禮拜？"],["彭部長啓明：一個月，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：你們不是聯繫的很密切？這樣有差別嗎？一個月好啦！"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們很多同事現在也很忙，一個月，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：是啦！不是只有你們很忙，大家都很忙。部長請回，一個月。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：再請陳部長，好嗎？不好意思。陳部長知道全國屠宰場現在共計幾場嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：55場，沒有記錯的話。"],["劉委員建國：包含養雞、養鴨、養鵝。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這是豬隻的部分。"],["劉委員建國：全部啦！"],["陳部長駿季：177場。"],["劉委員建國：177場嘛！對不對？114年度的時候，我們進用獸醫17人、助理14人，合計31人。但是114年離職的獸醫有11人、助理26人，合計37人，我掌握的這個數字正不正確？怎麼會這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們同仁說這個數字是正確的。"],["劉委員建國：對。怎麼會不到一年就離職11個獸醫、助理26人，合計37人。"],["陳部長駿季：這也是我們一直在為獸醫師爭取的原因，因為現在獸醫師可以去當寵物醫院的醫師，薪水相對比較高，而面對經濟動物的這些獸醫師，相對的工作比較辛苦，所以我們也一直在積極爭取他們的不開業獎金。但是顯然的，高考端是有增加啦！但是現職端的部分還是有比較高的離職率。"],["劉委員建國：這好像是逃難潮，你有這樣的感覺嗎？這很恐怖。114年度進用的人數是這樣，離開的比進用的多六人，林林總總加起來，離職的多了六人，這樣對我們的防疫及預防面可能都會是一個很大的挑戰，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以部長是不是也在短時間內提出報告？一樣是一個月內，能不能提出相關的改善報告？可以吧？"],["陳部長駿季：好，可以。我們把相關的改善和因應措施……"],["劉委員建國：我們可能要特別重視這種問題，不管是養殖場還是屠宰場，包括獸醫師等相關人員的福利，和他們一些制度上的保障。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。不只是獸醫師，其實畜牧方面的公職人員現在都很怕進到公職單位，我想這是一個系統性的問題，我們必須嚴肅面對啦！"],["劉委員建國：好。我最後再請教部長，原本禁運禁宰5天再延10天，一定會造成整個養豬鏈很大的衝擊嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是，對。"],["劉委員建國：昨天我們有和司長等相關農政單位的長官開過會，我們也有適時反映，包含潘理事長都來了嘛！也特別提出一些反映意見，我們知道已經有研擬一些配套因應。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["劉委員建國：除了這幾項，你看還有什麼不足之處？就是禁運禁宰期間的飼料補助，停宰期間屠宰線租金，停宰期間的人事及勞務費用，相關的攤商人員收入損失，還有在這期間死亡的豬隻補貼。15日之後如果順利解禁，到時這15天禁運禁宰的豬一口氣釋出，當然這是不可能啦！這樣也會造成價格波動，保價的部分要怎麼調節和因應？還有使用豬肉的小吃攤商，這應該是屬於經濟部的業務，例如肉雞、爌肉飯、滷肉飯等等。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，您講的這7項本身大致上……"],["劉委員建國：應該是不只啦，應該不只啦！"],["陳部長駿季：大致上跟我們的……但是這邊要稍微說明，在這段時間死亡豬隻補貼的部分可能有一些前提啦，這個前提到時候我們會有方案出來，不是只要有豬隻死亡就給予補貼，可能有一些前提，這部分會來處理。有關解禁的部分，我們現在沒有辦法去做保價，但是我們一定是會讓進到批發市場的次序要維持，然後確保價格的穩定，以這個為目標之下去做所有可能的調度，大概會是這樣子。至於豬肉的小吃攤商這個部分現在還在討論，因為小吃攤可能有賣豬肉的、有賣雞肉的、有賣什麼的，在處理上是很難去界定，不過我想大部分委員所建議的，都在我們的方案裡面。"],["劉委員建國：部長應該很清楚嘛，畜牧司長也很清楚，那天我也特別說了，原本豬養到差不多百餘公斤就可以出豬了，對不對？現在沒辦法出豬，牠再多吃5天飼料，現在是再多吃15天飼料，豬會變得很大隻啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["劉委員建國：變很大隻之後，住在那個環境裡面，不要說豬啦，連人也一樣的意思就對了嘛，對不對？我們會場如果人比較多，空氣污染就會提高了嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：那到時候可能會有擠壓、擠迫，豬也會因為發生躁動而生病，甚至於死亡，那這個我們應該有相關的一些配套來做因應，甚至支持這些養豬戶，對不對？然後在15天後拍賣的時候，豬已經變得不是原本一般我們在拍賣豬時特別想要選擇的段位，那個價格一定會不一樣，會往下掉嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["劉委員建國：豬比較重了，但是價格卻掉下來就對了，這個情況要如何配套？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在現在禁運的時間會針對相關的飼料做一些補貼，然後之後出豬的時候，重量越大的單價越低，所以我們會維持一個基本的監控價，在這個監控價以下的時候，我們就會啟動一些調度跟調節，大概用這樣的方式。"],["劉委員建國：好，請部長儘量讓這些相關養豬產業的損害可以降到最低，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，部長辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言，也謝謝部長的回答。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","林淑芬","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","陳瑩","陳素月","謝龍介","王鴻薇","徐富癸","王正旭","涂權吉","楊曜","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","盧縣一","何欣純","范雲","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、農業部、經濟部、教育部、國防部就「防範非洲豬瘟疫情擴\n散，強化全國廚餘去化問題以及後續防疫、清消等作為」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審\n查( 一) 行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四\n十九條條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員魯明哲等16 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等\n19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉\n玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十\n二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員劉建國等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第\n六條條文修正草案」案、 ( 十五) 委員沈發惠等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏\n等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正\n草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委\n員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人\n擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、\n(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員林淑芬等21人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分\n條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)\n委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修\n正草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149002_00001"}}}