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\"text\": \"佔了110億還有平震段南延工程115億等那這樣的經費膨脹的幅度幾乎是原本的預算的四分之三部長 局長請問這樣是不是算工程當初估算不實還是因為行政審查太慢了所以導致成本外溢請說明 謝謝\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"佔\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 47.781, \"end\": 49.222, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 49.222, \"end\": 49.383, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 49.383, \"end\": 49.643, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"震\", \"start\": 49.643, \"end\": 49.903, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 49.903, \"end\": 50.183, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 50.183, \"end\": 50.383, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 50.383, \"end\": 50.563, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 50.563, \"end\": 50.804, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 50.804, \"end\": 51.904, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 51.904, 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{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 581.654, \"end\": 582.034, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 582.034, \"end\": 582.254, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 582.254, \"end\": 582.594, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 582.594, \"end\": 582.854, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 582.854, \"end\": 583.154, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 583.154, \"end\": 583.234, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 583.234, \"end\": 583.455, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 583.455, \"end\": 584.755, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 584.755, \"end\": 584.875, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 584.875, \"end\": 585.155, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"乘\", \"start\": 585.155, \"end\": 585.315, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"客\", \"start\": 585.315, \"end\": 585.415, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 585.415, \"end\": 585.476, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 585.476, \"end\": 585.696, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 585.696, \"end\": 586.396, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 586.396, \"end\": 586.856, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"董\", \"start\": 586.856, \"end\": 586.976, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 586.976, \"end\": 586.996, \"score\": 0.019}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,831 --> 00:00:09,015\n謝謝主席有請交通部陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長楊局長請國賢好部長好局長好\n\n2\n00:00:18,820 --> 00:00:43,558\n部長局長本期看到根據交通部提供的資料截至一百一十一年九月桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有百分之三十三點七十一那原本核定的經費呢是一千零四十七點九十三億那後來修正後呢暴增到一千八百一十七億那整體增加了高達七百六十九點八億那其中因為營建市場他的波動了那佔了四百零八億都市計畫還有設計審議呢延誤呢\n\n3\n00:00:47,781 --> 00:01:07,115\n佔了110億還有平震段南延工程115億等那這樣的經費膨脹的幅度幾乎是原本的預算的四分之三部長局長請問這樣是不是算工程當初估算不實還是因為行政審查太慢了所以導致成本外溢請說明謝謝\n\n4\n00:01:09,489 --> 00:01:30,362\n跟委員報告我想這兩年大部分的我們軌道建設都有類似的這樣的一個調整那最主要因素當然是市場上對於缺工跟缺料而導致整個經費的增加那剛剛委員也有特別提到因為逃避這個計畫還增加了所謂的憑證端的難演\n\n5\n00:01:31,463 --> 00:01:54,275\n所以還有另外一個就是在督設省的過程當中把原來規劃的一些地面的這個停車場改設為地下所以就增加了我們整個建造的成本是那局長桃園段他的招標段有30標那目前僅完成15標那剩餘的標案要等修正計畫之後他核定之後才能辦理那這樣的行政時程您認為合理嗎\n\n6\n00:01:55,315 --> 00:02:12,642\n我想目前我們還是按照原來修正的部分就是122年第一階段通車如果能夠順利爭取到行政院的核定的話其實看到的這些標案數我們現在大概最主要差三個主體工程標\n\n7\n00:02:13,602 --> 00:02:41,765\n其他的十幾個標都是搭配的所謂的系統標或者是這個後續的這個軌道基墊等等的這個問題所以我們趕快因為局長本期有發現計畫是卡在中央還有地方協調之間嘛部長那國發會原則上他已經同意簽成行政院那本期想要和您確認為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢我們要等院整個行政院整體核定那我們也在爭取當中我們會跟院這邊來溝通盡量加速\n\n8\n00:02:42,387 --> 00:03:02,141\n盡量加速OK好那這不只是工程的延宕那是否交通部可以比照因為捷運的重大工程他都有專案管理的辦公室嗎那我們鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理我們每個案子應該都是我們每個案子我們其實是我們自己有內部的這個管理你們有內部的管理那你們多久公開一次呢\n\n9\n00:03:05,354 --> 00:03:22,653\n公開就是他的進度還有預算應該是隨時每個月都在做更新每個月都有在更新公布在哪裡在我們的局的官網官網上面可以查閱的到OK好謝謝局長局長先請回那這邊也請我們台鐵的鄭董事長\n\n10\n00:03:34,633 --> 00:03:51,886\n董事長好根據台鐵114年度的安全管理報告您知道去年整年共發生多少起的行車事故嗎大約行車事故我們去年是包括還有行車異常的事件總共是大大小小就979件\n\n11\n00:03:53,714 --> 00:04:19,253\n979件沒錯那其中行車事故佔了48件嘛931件是行車異常事件那比112年的時候還上升了27%那其中車輛故障268件它運轉還有保安裝置故障175件外物入侵是81件那這代表什麼這顯示內部的維修還有循跡的能力下降那還有更關鍵的是什麼就是人為操作錯誤還有設備老化也是其中的原因\n\n12\n00:04:19,793 --> 00:04:38,793\n那至於台鐵當初說要公司化的初衷要提升管理效率是背道而馳的那董事長您知道嗎在勞動條件工會也有統計有三成的員工每個月都超班都加班超過45個小時也出現了連續執勤14個小時以上您知道這樣的狀況嗎\n\n13\n00:04:39,778 --> 00:04:50,664\n有的我們有幾件在去年跟今年都有這些意見都有這樣的一個情況是不是可以請董事長說明為什麼台鐵公司化後勞動條件沒有改善反而是惡化了呢\n\n14\n00:04:51,584 --> 00:05:16,765\n我想這是在基層主管的督導並不是很確實那同仁也沒有說這樣的一個sense所以有這樣的一個違反勞動條件的情況那現在的話我們已經積極要求來改善這樣的情況除了宣導同仁這樣的一個情況以外也加強這個飢餓的工作\n\n15\n00:05:17,318 --> 00:05:41,935\n加強集合的工作那台鐵公司你們的報告也有提到113年度辦理你們有辦理43場的安全集合那結案率是73%那也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善什麼時候可以改善我想我們很努力的在做這個改善的工作希望在年底前我們會在這個集合方面做更多的強化\n\n16\n00:05:42,791 --> 00:06:09,856\n當然是要努力這邊也請我們勞動部的副處長副處長好副處長勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外請您說明\n\n17\n00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:37,385\n報告委員我們針對鐵道運輸業列入排檢的那個對象那我們那個近三年針對台鐵實施勞動檢查大概有229場那總共有22場的違反那違反率大概是9.68累計的裁判本身台鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險失業名單裡面有那你們多久進行稽查\n\n18\n00:06:38,840 --> 00:07:06,571\n我們檢查機構會依照這個風險的頻率去做排檢OK好謝謝副署長的說明那再來董事長現在和您討論月台的防護的設施嚴重落後而且你們的AI監控誤判率高旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣你們安全報告中全國有242個車站平交道監視器還有防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成那近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件\n\n19\n00:07:08,892 --> 00:07:16,304\n那平均這樣算起來每週都超過一起那你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%你們要怎麼來做改善\n\n20\n00:07:17,148 --> 00:07:46,158\n我想這個AI防護這個部分主要就是在鞭撥這一部分因為在去年這個那時候還是在這個系統本身還算是在測試之中所以有很多的這個漏但是現在這個防護的部分已經做好大概99.5%以上的這個可靠度了所以那如果這樣AI誤判然後導致就是旅客還是就是行車的事故或是旅客受傷那這責任歸屬在哪裡\n\n21\n00:07:47,808 --> 00:08:08,913\n是歸在廠商站務員還是你們還是交通部台鐵公司我想這個都應該歸公司啦所以怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分那以這一次這個大石頭滾落然後把這個AI的這個防護系統打掉這個纜線這部分的話我們除了說\n\n22\n00:08:11,293 --> 00:08:39,905\n趕快恢復這個系統以外我們就馬上有做一個緊急的處置就是說在這個情況之下我們馬上要求車輛減速慢行另外請教董事長你們就是只有兩個站務員來監控旅客的安全那這樣的配置你們是依據安全的評估還是人力成本的考量請問兩個監護人員什麼意思就是在你們各大車站的高峰時段每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全\n\n23\n00:08:40,678 --> 00:09:05,998\n那是在台北這邊是在台北這邊只有兩名這樣子人力夠嗎我們本來是三名那最近就是因為有一位資源到這個台北車站的一樓那現在11月份以後我們已經把它補齊11月份以後會補齊所以你們有信心11月份以後再招這批招聘已經招了對11月會補齊因為這個保全的人員已經專責來駭客\n\n24\n00:09:11,144 --> 00:09:24,898\nOK好那最後再請教董事長那你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計劃115年底前你們會完成30處的高旅運車站防護系統建置您有把握115年可以完成嗎這30處\n\n25\n00:09:32,970 --> 00:09:46,996\n法務委員那這部分的話我們現在目前就會按照著計畫來進行其他詳細的進度會再跟委員來做一個說明OK那也請台鐵公司就是改善AI你們誤判率的系統的問題OK以保乘客的安全好謝謝董事長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3831\t9015\t謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長 楊局長請國賢好部長好局長好\n18820\t43558\t部長局長本期看到根據交通部提供的資料截至一百一十一年九月桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有百分之三十三點七十一那原本核定的經費呢是一千零四十七點九十三億那後來修正後呢暴增到一千八百一十七億那整體增加了高達七百六十九點八億那其中因為營建市場他的波動了那佔了四百零八億都市計畫還有設計審議呢延誤呢\n47781\t67115\t佔了110億還有平震段南延工程115億等那這樣的經費膨脹的幅度幾乎是原本的預算的四分之三部長 局長請問這樣是不是算工程當初估算不實還是因為行政審查太慢了所以導致成本外溢請說明 謝謝\n69489\t90362\t跟委員報告我想這兩年大部分的我們軌道建設都有類似的這樣的一個調整那最主要因素當然是市場上對於缺工跟缺料而導致整個經費的增加那剛剛委員也有特別提到因為逃避這個計畫還增加了所謂的憑證端的難演\n91463\t114275\t所以還有另外一個就是在督設省的過程當中把原來規劃的一些地面的這個停車場改設為地下所以就增加了我們整個建造的成本是那局長桃園段他的招標段有30標那目前僅完成15標那剩餘的標案要等修正計畫之後他核定之後才能辦理那這樣的行政時程您認為合理嗎\n115315\t132642\t我想目前我們還是按照原來修正的部分就是122年第一階段通車如果能夠順利爭取到行政院的核定的話其實看到的這些標案數我們現在大概最主要差三個主體工程標\n133602\t161765\t其他的十幾個標都是搭配的所謂的系統標或者是這個後續的這個軌道基墊等等的這個問題所以我們趕快 因為局長本期有發現計畫是卡在中央還有地方協調之間嘛 部長那國發會原則上他已經同意簽成行政院那本期想要和您確認為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢我們要等院整個行政院整體核定那我們也在爭取當中我們會跟院這邊來溝通盡量加速\n162387\t182141\t盡量加速OK好那這不只是工程的延宕那是否交通部可以比照因為捷運的重大工程他都有專案管理的辦公室嗎那我們鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理我們每個案子應該都是我們每個案子我們其實是我們自己有內部的這個管理你們有內部的管理那你們多久公開一次呢\n185354\t202653\t公開就是他的進度還有預算應該是隨時每個月都在做更新每個月都有在更新公布在哪裡在我們的局的官網官網上面可以查閱的到OK好謝謝局長局長先請回那這邊也請我們台鐵的鄭董事長\n214633\t231886\t董事長好根據台鐵114年度的安全管理報告您知道去年整年共發生多少起的行車事故嗎大約行車事故我們去年是包括還有行車異常的事件總共是大大小小就979件\n233714\t259253\t979件 沒錯 那其中行車事故佔了48件嘛 931件是行車異常事件那比112年的時候還上升了27%那其中車輛故障268件它運轉還有保安裝置故障175件 外物入侵是81件那這代表什麼 這顯示內部的維修還有循跡的能力下降那還有更關鍵的是什麼 就是人為操作錯誤還有設備老化也是其中的原因\n259793\t278793\t那至於台鐵當初說要公司化的初衷要提升管理效率是背道而馳的那董事長您知道嗎在勞動條件 工會也有統計有三成的員工每個月都超班都加班超過45個小時也出現了連續執勤14個小時以上您知道這樣的狀況嗎\n279778\t290664\t有的我們有幾件在去年跟今年都有這些意見都有這樣的一個情況是不是可以請董事長說明為什麼台鐵公司化後勞動條件沒有改善反而是惡化了呢\n291584\t316765\t我想這是在基層主管的督導並不是很確實那同仁也沒有說這樣的一個sense所以有這樣的一個違反勞動條件的情況那現在的話我們已經積極要求來改善這樣的情況除了宣導同仁這樣的一個情況以外也加強這個飢餓的工作\n317318\t341935\t加強集合的工作那台鐵公司你們的報告也有提到113年度辦理你們有辦理43場的安全集合那結案率是73%那也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善什麼時候可以改善我想我們很努力的在做這個改善的工作希望在年底前我們會在這個集合方面做更多的強化\n342791\t369856\t當然是要努力 這邊也請我們勞動部的副處長副處長好 副處長勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外 請您說明\n373000\t397385\t報告委員我們針對鐵道運輸業列入排檢的那個對象那我們那個近三年針對台鐵實施勞動檢查大概有229場那總共有22場的違反那違反率大概是9.68累計的裁判本身台鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險失業名單裡面有那你們多久進行稽查\n398840\t426571\t我們檢查機構會依照這個風險的頻率去做排檢OK好謝謝副署長的說明那再來董事長現在和您討論月台的防護的設施嚴重落後而且你們的AI監控誤判率高旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣你們安全報告中全國有242個車站平交道監視器還有防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成那近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件\n428892\t436304\t那平均這樣算起來每週都超過一起那你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%你們要怎麼來做改善\n437148\t466158\t我想這個AI防護這個部分主要就是在鞭撥這一部分因為在去年這個那時候還是在這個系統本身還算是在測試之中所以有很多的這個漏但是現在這個防護的部分已經做好大概99.5%以上的這個可靠度了所以那如果這樣AI誤判然後導致就是旅客還是就是行車的事故或是旅客受傷那這責任歸屬在哪裡\n467808\t488913\t是歸在廠商站務員還是你們還是交通部台鐵公司我想這個都應該歸公司啦所以怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分那以這一次這個大石頭滾落然後把這個AI的這個防護系統打掉這個纜線這部分的話我們除了說\n491293\t519905\t趕快恢復這個系統以外我們就馬上有做一個緊急的處置就是說在這個情況之下我們馬上要求車輛減速慢行另外請教董事長你們就是只有兩個站務員來監控旅客的安全那這樣的配置你們是依據安全的評估還是人力成本的考量請問兩個監護人員什麼意思就是在你們各大車站的高峰時段每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全\n520678\t545998\t那是在台北這邊是在台北這邊只有兩名這樣子人力夠嗎我們本來是三名那最近就是因為有一位資源到這個台北車站的一樓那現在11月份以後我們已經把它補齊11月份以後會補齊所以你們有信心11月份以後再招這批招聘已經招了對11月會補齊因為這個保全的人員已經專責來駭客\n551144\t564898\tOK好那最後再請教董事長那你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計劃115年底前你們會完成30處的高旅運車站防護系統建置您有把握115年可以完成嗎這30處\n572970\t586996\t法務委員那這部分的話我們現在目前就會按照著計畫來進行其他詳細的進度會再跟委員來做一個說明OK那也請台鐵公司就是改善AI你們誤判率的系統的問題OK以保乘客的安全好謝謝董事長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長 楊局長請國賢好部長好局長好\n部長局長本期看到根據交通部提供的資料截至一百一十一年九月桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有百分之三十三點七十一那原本核定的經費呢是一千零四十七點九十三億那後來修正後呢暴增到一千八百一十七億那整體增加了高達七百六十九點八億那其中因為營建市場他的波動了那佔了四百零八億都市計畫還有設計審議呢延誤呢\n佔了110億還有平震段南延工程115億等那這樣的經費膨脹的幅度幾乎是原本的預算的四分之三部長 局長請問這樣是不是算工程當初估算不實還是因為行政審查太慢了所以導致成本外溢請說明 謝謝\n跟委員報告我想這兩年大部分的我們軌道建設都有類似的這樣的一個調整那最主要因素當然是市場上對於缺工跟缺料而導致整個經費的增加那剛剛委員也有特別提到因為逃避這個計畫還增加了所謂的憑證端的難演\n所以還有另外一個就是在督設省的過程當中把原來規劃的一些地面的這個停車場改設為地下所以就增加了我們整個建造的成本是那局長桃園段他的招標段有30標那目前僅完成15標那剩餘的標案要等修正計畫之後他核定之後才能辦理那這樣的行政時程您認為合理嗎\n我想目前我們還是按照原來修正的部分就是122年第一階段通車如果能夠順利爭取到行政院的核定的話其實看到的這些標案數我們現在大概最主要差三個主體工程標\n其他的十幾個標都是搭配的所謂的系統標或者是這個後續的這個軌道基墊等等的這個問題所以我們趕快 因為局長本期有發現計畫是卡在中央還有地方協調之間嘛 部長那國發會原則上他已經同意簽成行政院那本期想要和您確認為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢我們要等院整個行政院整體核定那我們也在爭取當中我們會跟院這邊來溝通盡量加速\n盡量加速OK好那這不只是工程的延宕那是否交通部可以比照因為捷運的重大工程他都有專案管理的辦公室嗎那我們鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理我們每個案子應該都是我們每個案子我們其實是我們自己有內部的這個管理你們有內部的管理那你們多久公開一次呢\n公開就是他的進度還有預算應該是隨時每個月都在做更新每個月都有在更新公布在哪裡在我們的局的官網官網上面可以查閱的到OK好謝謝局長局長先請回那這邊也請我們台鐵的鄭董事長\n董事長好根據台鐵114年度的安全管理報告您知道去年整年共發生多少起的行車事故嗎大約行車事故我們去年是包括還有行車異常的事件總共是大大小小就979件\n979件 沒錯 那其中行車事故佔了48件嘛 931件是行車異常事件那比112年的時候還上升了27%那其中車輛故障268件它運轉還有保安裝置故障175件 外物入侵是81件那這代表什麼 這顯示內部的維修還有循跡的能力下降那還有更關鍵的是什麼 就是人為操作錯誤還有設備老化也是其中的原因\n那至於台鐵當初說要公司化的初衷要提升管理效率是背道而馳的那董事長您知道嗎在勞動條件 工會也有統計有三成的員工每個月都超班都加班超過45個小時也出現了連續執勤14個小時以上您知道這樣的狀況嗎\n有的我們有幾件在去年跟今年都有這些意見都有這樣的一個情況是不是可以請董事長說明為什麼台鐵公司化後勞動條件沒有改善反而是惡化了呢\n我想這是在基層主管的督導並不是很確實那同仁也沒有說這樣的一個sense所以有這樣的一個違反勞動條件的情況那現在的話我們已經積極要求來改善這樣的情況除了宣導同仁這樣的一個情況以外也加強這個飢餓的工作\n加強集合的工作那台鐵公司你們的報告也有提到113年度辦理你們有辦理43場的安全集合那結案率是73%那也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善什麼時候可以改善我想我們很努力的在做這個改善的工作希望在年底前我們會在這個集合方面做更多的強化\n當然是要努力 這邊也請我們勞動部的副處長副處長好 副處長勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外 請您說明\n報告委員我們針對鐵道運輸業列入排檢的那個對象那我們那個近三年針對台鐵實施勞動檢查大概有229場那總共有22場的違反那違反率大概是9.68累計的裁判本身台鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險失業名單裡面有那你們多久進行稽查\n我們檢查機構會依照這個風險的頻率去做排檢OK好謝謝副署長的說明那再來董事長現在和您討論月台的防護的設施嚴重落後而且你們的AI監控誤判率高旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣你們安全報告中全國有242個車站平交道監視器還有防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成那近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件\n那平均這樣算起來每週都超過一起那你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%你們要怎麼來做改善\n我想這個AI防護這個部分主要就是在鞭撥這一部分因為在去年這個那時候還是在這個系統本身還算是在測試之中所以有很多的這個漏但是現在這個防護的部分已經做好大概99.5%以上的這個可靠度了所以那如果這樣AI誤判然後導致就是旅客還是就是行車的事故或是旅客受傷那這責任歸屬在哪裡\n是歸在廠商站務員還是你們還是交通部台鐵公司我想這個都應該歸公司啦所以怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分那以這一次這個大石頭滾落然後把這個AI的這個防護系統打掉這個纜線這部分的話我們除了說\n趕快恢復這個系統以外我們就馬上有做一個緊急的處置就是說在這個情況之下我們馬上要求車輛減速慢行另外請教董事長你們就是只有兩個站務員來監控旅客的安全那這樣的配置你們是依據安全的評估還是人力成本的考量請問兩個監護人員什麼意思就是在你們各大車站的高峰時段每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全\n那是在台北這邊是在台北這邊只有兩名這樣子人力夠嗎我們本來是三名那最近就是因為有一位資源到這個台北車站的一樓那現在11月份以後我們已經把它補齊11月份以後會補齊所以你們有信心11月份以後再招這批招聘已經招了對11月會補齊因為這個保全的人員已經專責來駭客\nOK好那最後再請教董事長那你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計劃115年底前你們會完成30處的高旅運車站防護系統建置您有把握115年可以完成嗎這30處\n法務委員那這部分的話我們現在目前就會按照著計畫來進行其他詳細的進度會再跟委員來做一個說明OK那也請台鐵公司就是改善AI你們誤判率的系統的問題OK以保乘客的安全好謝謝董事長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.831 --> 00:09.015\n謝謝主席有請交通部陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長楊局長請國賢好部長好局長好\n\n00:18.820 --> 00:43.558\n部長局長本期看到根據交通部提供的資料截至一百一十一年九月桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有百分之三十三點七十一那原本核定的經費呢是一千零四十七點九十三億那後來修正後呢暴增到一千八百一十七億那整體增加了高達七百六十九點八億那其中因為營建市場他的波動了那佔了四百零八億都市計畫還有設計審議呢延誤呢\n\n00:47.781 --> 01:07.115\n佔了110億還有平震段南延工程115億等那這樣的經費膨脹的幅度幾乎是原本的預算的四分之三部長局長請問這樣是不是算工程當初估算不實還是因為行政審查太慢了所以導致成本外溢請說明謝謝\n\n01:09.489 --> 01:30.362\n跟委員報告我想這兩年大部分的我們軌道建設都有類似的這樣的一個調整那最主要因素當然是市場上對於缺工跟缺料而導致整個經費的增加那剛剛委員也有特別提到因為逃避這個計畫還增加了所謂的憑證端的難演\n\n01:31.463 --> 01:54.275\n所以還有另外一個就是在督設省的過程當中把原來規劃的一些地面的這個停車場改設為地下所以就增加了我們整個建造的成本是那局長桃園段他的招標段有30標那目前僅完成15標那剩餘的標案要等修正計畫之後他核定之後才能辦理那這樣的行政時程您認為合理嗎\n\n01:55.315 --> 02:12.642\n我想目前我們還是按照原來修正的部分就是122年第一階段通車如果能夠順利爭取到行政院的核定的話其實看到的這些標案數我們現在大概最主要差三個主體工程標\n\n02:13.602 --> 02:41.765\n其他的十幾個標都是搭配的所謂的系統標或者是這個後續的這個軌道基墊等等的這個問題所以我們趕快因為局長本期有發現計畫是卡在中央還有地方協調之間嘛部長那國發會原則上他已經同意簽成行政院那本期想要和您確認為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢我們要等院整個行政院整體核定那我們也在爭取當中我們會跟院這邊來溝通盡量加速\n\n02:42.387 --> 03:02.141\n盡量加速OK好那這不只是工程的延宕那是否交通部可以比照因為捷運的重大工程他都有專案管理的辦公室嗎那我們鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理我們每個案子應該都是我們每個案子我們其實是我們自己有內部的這個管理你們有內部的管理那你們多久公開一次呢\n\n03:05.354 --> 03:22.653\n公開就是他的進度還有預算應該是隨時每個月都在做更新每個月都有在更新公布在哪裡在我們的局的官網官網上面可以查閱的到OK好謝謝局長局長先請回那這邊也請我們台鐵的鄭董事長\n\n03:34.633 --> 03:51.886\n董事長好根據台鐵114年度的安全管理報告您知道去年整年共發生多少起的行車事故嗎大約行車事故我們去年是包括還有行車異常的事件總共是大大小小就979件\n\n03:53.714 --> 04:19.253\n979件沒錯那其中行車事故佔了48件嘛931件是行車異常事件那比112年的時候還上升了27%那其中車輛故障268件它運轉還有保安裝置故障175件外物入侵是81件那這代表什麼這顯示內部的維修還有循跡的能力下降那還有更關鍵的是什麼就是人為操作錯誤還有設備老化也是其中的原因\n\n04:19.793 --> 04:38.793\n那至於台鐵當初說要公司化的初衷要提升管理效率是背道而馳的那董事長您知道嗎在勞動條件工會也有統計有三成的員工每個月都超班都加班超過45個小時也出現了連續執勤14個小時以上您知道這樣的狀況嗎\n\n04:39.778 --> 04:50.664\n有的我們有幾件在去年跟今年都有這些意見都有這樣的一個情況是不是可以請董事長說明為什麼台鐵公司化後勞動條件沒有改善反而是惡化了呢\n\n04:51.584 --> 05:16.765\n我想這是在基層主管的督導並不是很確實那同仁也沒有說這樣的一個sense所以有這樣的一個違反勞動條件的情況那現在的話我們已經積極要求來改善這樣的情況除了宣導同仁這樣的一個情況以外也加強這個飢餓的工作\n\n05:17.318 --> 05:41.935\n加強集合的工作那台鐵公司你們的報告也有提到113年度辦理你們有辦理43場的安全集合那結案率是73%那也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善什麼時候可以改善我想我們很努力的在做這個改善的工作希望在年底前我們會在這個集合方面做更多的強化\n\n05:42.791 --> 06:09.856\n當然是要努力這邊也請我們勞動部的副處長副處長好副處長勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外請您說明\n\n06:13.000 --> 06:37.385\n報告委員我們針對鐵道運輸業列入排檢的那個對象那我們那個近三年針對台鐵實施勞動檢查大概有229場那總共有22場的違反那違反率大概是9.68累計的裁判本身台鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險失業名單裡面有那你們多久進行稽查\n\n06:38.840 --> 07:06.571\n我們檢查機構會依照這個風險的頻率去做排檢OK好謝謝副署長的說明那再來董事長現在和您討論月台的防護的設施嚴重落後而且你們的AI監控誤判率高旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣你們安全報告中全國有242個車站平交道監視器還有防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成那近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件\n\n07:08.892 --> 07:16.304\n那平均這樣算起來每週都超過一起那你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%你們要怎麼來做改善\n\n07:17.148 --> 07:46.158\n我想這個AI防護這個部分主要就是在鞭撥這一部分因為在去年這個那時候還是在這個系統本身還算是在測試之中所以有很多的這個漏但是現在這個防護的部分已經做好大概99.5%以上的這個可靠度了所以那如果這樣AI誤判然後導致就是旅客還是就是行車的事故或是旅客受傷那這責任歸屬在哪裡\n\n07:47.808 --> 08:08.913\n是歸在廠商站務員還是你們還是交通部台鐵公司我想這個都應該歸公司啦所以怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分那以這一次這個大石頭滾落然後把這個AI的這個防護系統打掉這個纜線這部分的話我們除了說\n\n08:11.293 --> 08:39.905\n趕快恢復這個系統以外我們就馬上有做一個緊急的處置就是說在這個情況之下我們馬上要求車輛減速慢行另外請教董事長你們就是只有兩個站務員來監控旅客的安全那這樣的配置你們是依據安全的評估還是人力成本的考量請問兩個監護人員什麼意思就是在你們各大車站的高峰時段每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全\n\n08:40.678 --> 09:05.998\n那是在台北這邊是在台北這邊只有兩名這樣子人力夠嗎我們本來是三名那最近就是因為有一位資源到這個台北車站的一樓那現在11月份以後我們已經把它補齊11月份以後會補齊所以你們有信心11月份以後再招這批招聘已經招了對11月會補齊因為這個保全的人員已經專責來駭客\n\n09:11.144 --> 09:24.898\nOK好那最後再請教董事長那你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計劃115年底前你們會完成30處的高旅運車站防護系統建置您有把握115年可以完成嗎這30處\n\n09:32.970 --> 09:46.996\n法務委員那這部分的話我們現在目前就會按照著計畫來進行其他詳細的進度會再跟委員來做一個說明OK那也請台鐵公司就是改善AI你們誤判率的系統的問題OK以保乘客的安全好謝謝董事長\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.831,"end":9.015,"text":"謝謝主席 有請交通部陳部長還有鐵道局楊局長 楊局長請國賢好部長好局長好"},{"start":18.82,"end":43.558,"text":"部長局長本期看到根據交通部提供的資料截至一百一十一年九月桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有百分之三十三點七十一那原本核定的經費呢是一千零四十七點九十三億那後來修正後呢暴增到一千八百一十七億那整體增加了高達七百六十九點八億那其中因為營建市場他的波動了那佔了四百零八億都市計畫還有設計審議呢延誤呢"},{"start":47.781,"end":67.115,"text":"佔了110億還有平震段南延工程115億等那這樣的經費膨脹的幅度幾乎是原本的預算的四分之三部長 局長請問這樣是不是算工程當初估算不實還是因為行政審查太慢了所以導致成本外溢請說明 謝謝"},{"start":69.489,"end":90.362,"text":"跟委員報告我想這兩年大部分的我們軌道建設都有類似的這樣的一個調整那最主要因素當然是市場上對於缺工跟缺料而導致整個經費的增加那剛剛委員也有特別提到因為逃避這個計畫還增加了所謂的憑證端的難演"},{"start":91.463,"end":114.275,"text":"所以還有另外一個就是在督設省的過程當中把原來規劃的一些地面的這個停車場改設為地下所以就增加了我們整個建造的成本是那局長桃園段他的招標段有30標那目前僅完成15標那剩餘的標案要等修正計畫之後他核定之後才能辦理那這樣的行政時程您認為合理嗎"},{"start":115.315,"end":132.642,"text":"我想目前我們還是按照原來修正的部分就是122年第一階段通車如果能夠順利爭取到行政院的核定的話其實看到的這些標案數我們現在大概最主要差三個主體工程標"},{"start":133.602,"end":161.765,"text":"其他的十幾個標都是搭配的所謂的系統標或者是這個後續的這個軌道基墊等等的這個問題所以我們趕快 因為局長本期有發現計畫是卡在中央還有地方協調之間嘛 部長那國發會原則上他已經同意簽成行政院那本期想要和您確認為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢我們要等院整個行政院整體核定那我們也在爭取當中我們會跟院這邊來溝通盡量加速"},{"start":162.387,"end":182.141,"text":"盡量加速OK好那這不只是工程的延宕那是否交通部可以比照因為捷運的重大工程他都有專案管理的辦公室嗎那我們鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理我們每個案子應該都是我們每個案子我們其實是我們自己有內部的這個管理你們有內部的管理那你們多久公開一次呢"},{"start":185.354,"end":202.653,"text":"公開就是他的進度還有預算應該是隨時每個月都在做更新每個月都有在更新公布在哪裡在我們的局的官網官網上面可以查閱的到OK好謝謝局長局長先請回那這邊也請我們台鐵的鄭董事長"},{"start":214.633,"end":231.886,"text":"董事長好根據台鐵114年度的安全管理報告您知道去年整年共發生多少起的行車事故嗎大約行車事故我們去年是包括還有行車異常的事件總共是大大小小就979件"},{"start":233.714,"end":259.253,"text":"979件 沒錯 那其中行車事故佔了48件嘛 931件是行車異常事件那比112年的時候還上升了27%那其中車輛故障268件它運轉還有保安裝置故障175件 外物入侵是81件那這代表什麼 這顯示內部的維修還有循跡的能力下降那還有更關鍵的是什麼 就是人為操作錯誤還有設備老化也是其中的原因"},{"start":259.793,"end":278.793,"text":"那至於台鐵當初說要公司化的初衷要提升管理效率是背道而馳的那董事長您知道嗎在勞動條件 工會也有統計有三成的員工每個月都超班都加班超過45個小時也出現了連續執勤14個小時以上您知道這樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":279.778,"end":290.664,"text":"有的我們有幾件在去年跟今年都有這些意見都有這樣的一個情況是不是可以請董事長說明為什麼台鐵公司化後勞動條件沒有改善反而是惡化了呢"},{"start":291.584,"end":316.765,"text":"我想這是在基層主管的督導並不是很確實那同仁也沒有說這樣的一個sense所以有這樣的一個違反勞動條件的情況那現在的話我們已經積極要求來改善這樣的情況除了宣導同仁這樣的一個情況以外也加強這個飢餓的工作"},{"start":317.318,"end":341.935,"text":"加強集合的工作那台鐵公司你們的報告也有提到113年度辦理你們有辦理43場的安全集合那結案率是73%那也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善什麼時候可以改善我想我們很努力的在做這個改善的工作希望在年底前我們會在這個集合方面做更多的強化"},{"start":342.791,"end":369.856,"text":"當然是要努力 這邊也請我們勞動部的副處長副處長好 副處長勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外 請您說明"},{"start":373,"end":397.385,"text":"報告委員我們針對鐵道運輸業列入排檢的那個對象那我們那個近三年針對台鐵實施勞動檢查大概有229場那總共有22場的違反那違反率大概是9.68累計的裁判本身台鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險失業名單裡面有那你們多久進行稽查"},{"start":398.84,"end":426.571,"text":"我們檢查機構會依照這個風險的頻率去做排檢OK好謝謝副署長的說明那再來董事長現在和您討論月台的防護的設施嚴重落後而且你們的AI監控誤判率高旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣你們安全報告中全國有242個車站平交道監視器還有防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成那近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件"},{"start":428.892,"end":436.304,"text":"那平均這樣算起來每週都超過一起那你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%你們要怎麼來做改善"},{"start":437.148,"end":466.158,"text":"我想這個AI防護這個部分主要就是在鞭撥這一部分因為在去年這個那時候還是在這個系統本身還算是在測試之中所以有很多的這個漏但是現在這個防護的部分已經做好大概99.5%以上的這個可靠度了所以那如果這樣AI誤判然後導致就是旅客還是就是行車的事故或是旅客受傷那這責任歸屬在哪裡"},{"start":467.808,"end":488.913,"text":"是歸在廠商站務員還是你們還是交通部台鐵公司我想這個都應該歸公司啦所以怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分那以這一次這個大石頭滾落然後把這個AI的這個防護系統打掉這個纜線這部分的話我們除了說"},{"start":491.293,"end":519.905,"text":"趕快恢復這個系統以外我們就馬上有做一個緊急的處置就是說在這個情況之下我們馬上要求車輛減速慢行另外請教董事長你們就是只有兩個站務員來監控旅客的安全那這樣的配置你們是依據安全的評估還是人力成本的考量請問兩個監護人員什麼意思就是在你們各大車站的高峰時段每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全"},{"start":520.678,"end":545.998,"text":"那是在台北這邊是在台北這邊只有兩名這樣子人力夠嗎我們本來是三名那最近就是因為有一位資源到這個台北車站的一樓那現在11月份以後我們已經把它補齊11月份以後會補齊所以你們有信心11月份以後再招這批招聘已經招了對11月會補齊因為這個保全的人員已經專責來駭客"},{"start":551.144,"end":564.898,"text":"OK好那最後再請教董事長那你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計劃115年底前你們會完成30處的高旅運車站防護系統建置您有把握115年可以完成嗎這30處"},{"start":572.97,"end":586.996,"text":"法務委員那這部分的話我們現在目前就會按照著計畫來進行其他詳細的進度會再跟委員來做一個說明OK那也請台鐵公司就是改善AI你們誤判率的系統的問題OK以保乘客的安全好謝謝董事長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1028,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時30分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長，還有鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、楊局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好、局長好。部長、局長，根據交通部提供的資料，截至111年9月，桃園鐵路地下化整體進度只有33.71%，原本核定的經費是1,047.93億元，後來修正後暴增到1,817億元，整體增加高達769.8億元。其中營建市場波動占了408億元，都市計畫和設計審議延誤占了110億元，還有平鎮站南延工程115億元等，這樣的經費膨脹幅度，幾乎是原本預算的四分之三。","部長、局長，請問這樣是不是當初工程估算不實？還是因為行政審查太慢了，所以導致成本外溢？請說明，謝謝。"],["楊局長正君：我想這兩年大部分的軌道建設都有類似的調整，最主要因素當然是市場缺工和缺料，導致整個經費增加。剛剛委員也有特別提到，因為桃地這個計畫還增加了所謂的平鎮段南延。還有另外一個，就是在都設審的過程當中，把原來規劃的一些地面停車場改設為地下，所以增加建造的成本。"],["邱委員若華：局長，桃園段的總標案數有30標，目前僅完成15標，剩餘的標案要等修正計畫核定之後才能辦理，這樣的行政時程，您認為合理嗎？"],["楊局長正君：目前我們還是按照原來的修正，就是122年第一階段通車，如果能夠順利爭取到行政院核定的話。其實看到的這些標案數，現在主要是差三個主體工程標，其他十幾個標都是搭配的，所謂的系統標或者後續的軌道、機電等等問題，我們會儘快處理。"],["邱委員若華：局長，本席也有發現，計畫是卡在中央和地方的協調嘛！部長，國發會原則上已經同意簽陳行政院，本席想要和您確認，為什麼交通部還沒有辦法確定修正的期程呢？"],["陳部長世凱：因為要等行政院整體核定。我們也在爭取當中，也會和行政院溝通儘量加速。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。這不只是工程的延宕，交通部是否可以比照一個做法，例如捷運的重大工程都有專案管理辦公室，鐵道局是不是也能比照辦理？"],["陳部長世凱：我們每個案子應該都是這樣。"],["楊局長正君：其實我們自己有做內部管理，每一個標案都有……"],["邱委員若華：你們有做內部管理，多久公開一次呢？"],["陳部長世凱：公開進度還是……"],["邱委員若華：就是公開進度和預算。"],["楊局長正君：進度的部分，我們每個月都在做更新。"],["邱委員若華：每個月都有更新？公布在哪裡？"],["楊局長正君：在我們局的官網。"],["邱委員若華：官網上面可以查到？OK，好，謝謝局長，局長先請回。請臺鐵鄭董事長。"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：董事長好。根據臺鐵114年度的安全管理報告，您知道去年整年大約發生多少起行車事故嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：行車事故，我們去年……"],["邱委員若華：包括行車異常的事件。"],["鄭董事長光遠：大大小小總共是979件。"],["邱委員若華：979件，沒錯。其中行車事故占48件，931件是行車異常事件，比112年上升27%，其中車輛故障268件，運轉和保安裝置故障175件，外物入侵是81件。這代表什麼？這顯示內部的維修和巡檢能力下降，還有更關鍵的是什麼？就是人為操作錯誤，設備老化也是原因之一，這和臺鐵當初說要公司化的初衷、要提升管理效率，其實是背道而馳的。","董事長，您知道嗎？在勞動條件的部分，工會也有統計，有三成員工每個月都加班超過45小時，也出現連續執勤14小時以上的案例。您知道這樣的狀況嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：有的，我們有幾件是這樣，去年和今年都有這樣的情況。"],["邱委員若華：是不是可以請董事長說明，為什麼臺鐵公司化後勞動條件不但沒有改善，反而惡化了呢？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我想這是因為基層主管的督導並不是很確實，同仁也沒有這樣的sense，所以才會有違反勞動條件的情況。現在我們已經積極要求改善這樣的情況，除了向同仁宣導以外，也加強稽核的工作。"],["邱委員若華：加強稽核的工作？臺鐵公司的報告也有提到，113年度你們有辦理43場安全稽核，結案率是73%，也代表還有超過幾百件的風險沒有改善，什麼時候可以改善？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們很努力在做改善的工作，年底前我們會在稽核方面做更多強化。"],["邱委員若華：當然要努力啊！請勞動部的副署長。"],["主席：請副署長。"],["邱委員若華：副署長好。副署長，勞動部有沒有將國營事業排除在高風險的勞檢名單之外？請您說明。"],["李副署長文進：鐵道運輸業也有列入排檢的對象，這三年針對臺鐵實施勞動檢查，大概有229場，總共有22場違反，違反率大概是9.68%，累計的裁罰……"],["邱委員若華：臺鐵有沒有在你們重大勞動風險事業名單裡面？"],["李副署長文進：有。"],["邱委員若華：你們多久稽查一次？"],["李副署長文進：我們檢查機構會依照風險的頻率去做排檢。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，謝謝副署長的說明。再來，董事長，我現在要和您討論月台的防護設施嚴重落後的問題，而且你們的AI監控誤判率高，旅客的安全目前看起來是靠運氣。在你們的安全報告中，全國242個車站，平交道監視器和防護無線電覆蓋率不到四成，近三年累積的旅客墜軌事件有190件，平均算起來每週都超過一起。你們的AI辨識系統誤判率高達12%到18%，你們要怎麼改善？"],["鄭董事長光遠：AI防護主要是在邊坡這個部分，因為去年這個系統還是在測試之中，所以有很多漏洞，但是現在防護的部分已經做好，大概有99.5%以上的可靠度。"],["邱委員若華：所以如果AI誤判，導致行車事故或是旅客受傷，這責任歸屬為何？是廠商、站務員？還是交通部臺鐵公司？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我想應該是歸公司，再怎麼講都是公司要負責這個部分。以這次大石頭滾落打掉AI防護系統纜線為例，我們除了趕快恢復這個系統以外，也馬上做緊急處置，在這個情況之下，我們會馬上要求車輛減速慢行。"],["邱委員若華：另外請教董事長，你們只有兩個站務員監控旅客的安全，這樣的配置是依據安全的評估？還是人力成本的考量？"],["鄭董事長光遠：請問兩個監護人員是什麼意思？"],["邱委員若華：就是在各大車站的高峰時段，每個月台只有兩個站務人員監控旅客的安全。"],["鄭董事長光遠：那是在臺北站。"],["邱委員若華：是在臺北站？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是。"],["邱委員若華：只有兩名，這樣人力夠嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：本來是三名啦！因為最近有一位到臺北車站一樓支援，11月份以後我們會把人力補齊。"],["邱委員若華：11月份以後會補齊？"],["鄭董事長光遠：11月1日會補齊。"],["邱委員若華：所以你們有信心11月份以後，這一批招聘……"],["鄭董事長光遠：已經招了。"],["邱委員若華：已經招了？"],["鄭董事長光遠：對，11月會補齊，保全人員是以專責的方式hire。"],["邱委員若華：最後再請教董事長，你們有推動一個高風險車站優先的改善計畫，115年底前會完成30處高旅運車站防護系統建置，這30處，你們有把握115年可以完成嗎？"],["陳副總經理宗宏：這部分我們會按照計畫進行，其他詳細的進度會再向委員說明。"],["邱委員若華：OK！也請臺鐵公司改善AI系統誤判率的問題，以保障乘客的安全，謝謝董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra 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