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00:01:04,123\n那這海欄呢其實是我們國家的數位命脈我們有非常多的國際資料傳輸其實都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜那這個七法的目的其實除了要保障以外我覺得很重要的其實國安的問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的部長我直接請教一下現在的行政院的版本\n\n4\n00:01:05,307 --> 00:01:22,709\n我們談到了所謂的故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑或者是只有兩百萬元的罰款我請教一下你的故意跟過失是要怎麼樣去做區分\n\n5\n00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:41,470\n容易區分的出來嗎那能不能比照所謂的美國電信安全法的模式把這個刑責把它拉高呢這個在過去在我們行政院版的討論的過程裡頭有沒有做這一方面的考量過部長報委員\n\n6\n00:01:46,223 --> 00:02:07,063\n故意或過失基本上是法院會認定不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解行為上面呢法院上當然是有分什麼叫故意什麼叫過失嘛行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎基本上他要KAIS出來嘛對不對如果一直在那邊滯留如果他只是通行的話按照道理他的速度應該很容易就過\n\n7\n00:02:07,728 --> 00:02:22,368\n但是一直在那邊滯留在那邊打圈圈繞的話那這個就這個就比較明顯當然也不是我們認定的但是這個就比較不是好像是過失而已可能他有特地的用途\n\n8\n00:02:24,289 --> 00:02:38,802\n其實你們看過這個海巡署給的相關的資料都能夠看得其實都非常的清楚嘛有很多的這個漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛好那我要請教就是說你們有沒有你們認不認為應該要比照\n\n9\n00:02:41,664 --> 00:03:09,427\n比照像美國的這個模式把這個刑期提高又或甚者是我覺得現在整個國際的趨勢去設立一個所謂的海欄保護區比如說美國當然是把刑度提高澳洲紐西蘭他們也設定了所謂的海欄保護區歐盟也成立了所謂的海欄安全行動機制跟其他的國家做區域的聯防\n\n10\n00:03:10,208 --> 00:03:23,681\n所以台灣有沒有可能或者說你們有沒有討論過我們是不是應該要來規劃設立所謂的海南保護區作為你們未來要驅離或是沒入這些財閥的很明確的規範有沒有\n\n11\n00:03:26,226 --> 00:03:55,401\n有沒有做過討論第一個那如果有討論在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到如果沒有做過討論不劃定保護區的理由是什麼來部長請您一併說明報告委員因為執行端的話是我們是比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行啦那座標我們的座標也都會給海巡它也會公告那來做一些執行這樣子一個情況\n\n12\n00:03:56,826 --> 00:04:24,059\n你沒有回答我的問題啊我在問你說有沒有想要設定海嵐的走廊保育區有沒有你跟我講是海委會執行海委會今天有沒有人來海委會來海巡署院有討論過啦但是副署長來副署長請您說明一下好不好原在行政院四次會議中的確有討論有討論分散立法放在各部會就現在的修法七法也有集中立法\n\n13\n00:04:24,679 --> 00:04:52,407\n比方說要不要訂海南保護區的部分嗎海南保護區也有討論後來考慮是這樣因為海南保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益還有實際執法問題那後來就決定維持目前就是12海里依照國際法規定12海里我們嚴格執法那這部分的話落實在海南七法有經過充分的討論第二個各位報告那有關過失犯部分在個案部分我們都會完整收證給檢查\n\n14\n00:04:54,608 --> 00:05:21,443\n司法機關那以鴻泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴法官判決船長三年有期徒刑他就認定船上有海上圖資他明白標示他就在海底電纜上面他竟然下錨所以他是故意的另外中華電信有一個SAWSource系統只要經過他的電區他會發訊號不過這艘船他沒有開AS沒有接收到\n\n15\n00:05:22,233 --> 00:05:29,223\n所以他故意把AIS關閉是所以檢察官依個案事實認定依據經驗法則論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯的\n\n16\n00:05:34,910 --> 00:06:01,666\n副所長我想還是要再更進一步請教如果說為了保護我們的漁船作業所以我們不宜來劃設所謂的海南保護區我們比照其他的國家比如說你們現在你剛剛談到的我們跟澳洲跟日本跟美國這個所謂的區域聯防的這一塊到底未來應該怎麼做\n\n17\n00:06:02,827 --> 00:06:25,521\n或者是說你們未來會怎麼樣去做加強我想很顯然的大家都注意到這個海底電纜不斷的被故意破壞這件事情這個對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅那對於印太區域聯防這件事情你們應該怎麼做你們會怎麼做這個是非常\n\n18\n00:06:26,281 --> 00:06:51,110\n好的方向我們現在全力以赴那因為考量國際情勢我們現在透過各種管道包括外交途徑等等我們希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作因為海底電腦是我們國家的生命線對外的生命線那這個都是互相連結的所以希望更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作這一部分相關部會持續努力中\n\n19\n00:06:51,901 --> 00:07:09,170\n好來我再進一步請教你所謂的相關合作當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛透過我們的外交管道或者是透過一些國安的系統可能是要跟這些國家去商談嘛那你商談之後的合作模式\n\n20\n00:07:10,836 --> 00:07:38,954\n未來會不會顯示在我們的修法的這個層級裡頭你說我們的現在的修法的幅度會不會太過於太過於輕或者是說這個是其實我們跟印太區域的這幾個國家大家相對來講都有一定的默契在執法上面在各個國家在他們的法定的修正上面其實大家會有一定的默契去執行那\n\n21\n00:07:39,494 --> 00:07:42,625\n除了海底電纜可能被切斷之後\n\n22\n00:07:43,826 --> 00:08:10,869\n有沒有其他的補強措施或者是應急的措施也是可以其他的印太區域國家大家一起共同合作的你只要回答我有或者是沒有就好我不要了解你的細部因為這個細部問題有可能是牽涉到國家機密包括親自分享包括共同打擊相關的類似活動那另外在修法部分對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定\n\n23\n00:08:11,409 --> 00:08:40,424\n提高刑責已經到10年而且罰金是5000萬所以這部分有可以發生相當嚇阻所以你覺得現在行政院的版本這個修法的刑責跟罰則你認為是OK的可以達到嚇阻效果根據原報告紅帶58號不僅是我們台灣第一次破壞立案起訴判決有罪案件更是全世界第一例包括歐洲國家相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果OK好了解謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3533\t7983\t好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下工部長不請工部長\n14998\t39359\t邱委員早部長早部長我想這個我們今天在處理這個所謂的海濫七法那這目前的三個法是跟經濟委員會有相關謝謝部長剛剛的報告海濫七法我想這個大家最近台灣其實是更能夠深刻的感受到從今年其實也有已經有多起的所謂海濫被破壞的這樣的一個事件\n40140\t64123\t那這海欄呢其實是我們國家的數位命脈我們有非常多的國際資料傳輸其實都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜那這個七法的目的其實除了要保障以外我覺得很重要的其實國安的問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的部長我直接請教一下現在的行政院的版本\n65307\t82709\t我們談到了所謂的故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑或者是只有兩百萬元的罰款我請教一下你的故意跟過失是要怎麼樣去做區分\n83840\t101470\t容易區分的出來嗎那能不能比照所謂的美國電信安全法的模式把這個刑責把它拉高呢這個在過去在我們行政院版的討論的過程裡頭有沒有做這一方面的考量過部長報委員\n106223\t127063\t故意或過失基本上是法院會認定不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解行為上面呢法院上當然是有分什麼叫故意什麼叫過失嘛行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎基本上他要KAIS出來嘛對不對如果一直在那邊滯留如果他只是通行的話按照道理他的速度應該很容易就過\n127728\t142368\t但是一直在那邊滯留在那邊打圈圈繞的話那這個就這個就比較明顯當然也不是我們認定的但是這個就比較不是好像是過失而已可能他有特地的用途\n144289\t158802\t其實你們看過這個海巡署給的相關的資料都能夠看得其實都非常的清楚嘛有很多的這個漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛好那我要請教就是說你們有沒有你們認不認為應該要比照\n161664\t189427\t比照像美國的這個模式把這個刑期提高又或甚者是我覺得現在整個國際的趨勢去設立一個所謂的海欄保護區比如說美國當然是把刑度提高澳洲 紐西蘭他們也設定了所謂的海欄保護區歐盟也成立了所謂的海欄安全行動機制跟其他的國家做區域的聯防\n190208\t203681\t所以台灣有沒有可能或者說你們有沒有討論過我們是不是應該要來規劃設立所謂的海南保護區作為你們未來要驅離或是沒入這些財閥的很明確的規範 有沒有\n206226\t235401\t有沒有做過討論 第一個那如果有討論在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到如果沒有做過討論不劃定保護區的理由是什麼來 部長請您一併說明報告委員 因為執行端的話是我們是比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行啦那座標 我們的座標也都會給海巡 它也會公告那來做一些執行這樣子一個情況\n236826\t264059\t你沒有回答我的問題啊我在問你說有沒有想要設定海嵐的走廊保育區有沒有你跟我講是海委會執行海委會今天有沒有人來海委會來海巡署院有討論過啦但是副署長來副署長請您說明一下好不好原在行政院四次會議中的確有討論有討論分散立法放在各部會就現在的修法 七法也有集中立法\n264679\t292407\t比方說要不要訂海南保護區的部分嗎海南保護區也有討論後來考慮是這樣因為海南保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益還有實際執法問題那後來就決定維持目前就是12海里依照國際法規定12海里我們嚴格執法那這部分的話落實在海南七法有經過充分的討論第二個 各位報告那有關過失犯部分在個案部分我們都會完整收證給檢查\n294608\t321443\t司法機關 那以鴻泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴法官判決船長三年有期徒刑他就認定船上有海上圖資他明白標示他就在海底電纜上面他竟然下錨所以他是故意的另外中華電信有一個SAW Source系統只要經過他的電區他會發訊號不過這艘船他沒有開AS 沒有接收到\n322233\t329223\t所以他故意把AIS關閉是 所以檢察官依個案事實認定依據經驗法則 論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯的\n334910\t361666\t副所長我想還是要再更進一步請教如果說為了保護我們的漁船作業所以我們不宜來劃設所謂的海南保護區我們比照其他的國家比如說你們現在你剛剛談到的我們跟澳洲跟日本跟美國這個所謂的區域聯防的這一塊到底未來應該怎麼做\n362827\t385521\t或者是說你們未來會怎麼樣去做加強我想很顯然的大家都注意到這個海底電纜不斷的被故意破壞這件事情這個對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅那對於印太區域聯防這件事情你們應該怎麼做你們會怎麼做這個是非常\n386281\t411110\t好的方向我們現在全力以赴那因為考量國際情勢我們現在透過各種管道包括外交途徑等等我們希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作因為海底電腦是我們國家的生命線對外的生命線那這個都是互相連結的所以希望更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作這一部分相關部會持續努力中\n411901\t429170\t好來我再進一步請教你所謂的相關合作當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛透過我們的外交管道或者是透過一些國安的系統可能是要跟這些國家去商談嘛那你商談之後的合作模式\n430836\t458954\t未來會不會顯示在我們的修法的這個層級裡頭你說我們的現在的修法的幅度會不會太過於太過於輕或者是說這個是其實我們跟印太區域的這幾個國家大家相對來講都有一定的默契在執法上面在各個國家在他們的法定的修正上面其實大家會有一定的默契去執行那\n459494\t462625\t除了海底電纜可能被切斷之後\n463826\t490869\t有沒有其他的補強措施或者是應急的措施也是可以其他的印太區域國家大家一起共同合作的你只要回答我有或者是沒有就好我不要了解你的細部因為這個細部問題有可能是牽涉到國家機密包括親自分享包括共同打擊相關的類似活動那另外在修法部分對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定\n491409\t520424\t提高刑責已經到10年而且罰金是5000萬所以這部分有可以發生相當嚇阻所以你覺得現在行政院的版本這個修法的刑責跟罰則你認為是OK的可以達到嚇阻效果根據原報告 紅帶58號不僅是我們台灣第一次破壞立案起訴判決有罪案件更是全世界第一例包括歐洲國家相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果OK 好 了解 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下工部長不請工部長\n邱委員早部長早部長我想這個我們今天在處理這個所謂的海濫七法那這目前的三個法是跟經濟委員會有相關謝謝部長剛剛的報告海濫七法我想這個大家最近台灣其實是更能夠深刻的感受到從今年其實也有已經有多起的所謂海濫被破壞的這樣的一個事件\n那這海欄呢其實是我們國家的數位命脈我們有非常多的國際資料傳輸其實都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜那這個七法的目的其實除了要保障以外我覺得很重要的其實國安的問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的部長我直接請教一下現在的行政院的版本\n我們談到了所謂的故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑或者是只有兩百萬元的罰款我請教一下你的故意跟過失是要怎麼樣去做區分\n容易區分的出來嗎那能不能比照所謂的美國電信安全法的模式把這個刑責把它拉高呢這個在過去在我們行政院版的討論的過程裡頭有沒有做這一方面的考量過部長報委員\n故意或過失基本上是法院會認定不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解行為上面呢法院上當然是有分什麼叫故意什麼叫過失嘛行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎基本上他要KAIS出來嘛對不對如果一直在那邊滯留如果他只是通行的話按照道理他的速度應該很容易就過\n但是一直在那邊滯留在那邊打圈圈繞的話那這個就這個就比較明顯當然也不是我們認定的但是這個就比較不是好像是過失而已可能他有特地的用途\n其實你們看過這個海巡署給的相關的資料都能夠看得其實都非常的清楚嘛有很多的這個漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛好那我要請教就是說你們有沒有你們認不認為應該要比照\n比照像美國的這個模式把這個刑期提高又或甚者是我覺得現在整個國際的趨勢去設立一個所謂的海欄保護區比如說美國當然是把刑度提高澳洲 紐西蘭他們也設定了所謂的海欄保護區歐盟也成立了所謂的海欄安全行動機制跟其他的國家做區域的聯防\n所以台灣有沒有可能或者說你們有沒有討論過我們是不是應該要來規劃設立所謂的海南保護區作為你們未來要驅離或是沒入這些財閥的很明確的規範 有沒有\n有沒有做過討論 第一個那如果有討論在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到如果沒有做過討論不劃定保護區的理由是什麼來 部長請您一併說明報告委員 因為執行端的話是我們是比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行啦那座標 我們的座標也都會給海巡 它也會公告那來做一些執行這樣子一個情況\n你沒有回答我的問題啊我在問你說有沒有想要設定海嵐的走廊保育區有沒有你跟我講是海委會執行海委會今天有沒有人來海委會來海巡署院有討論過啦但是副署長來副署長請您說明一下好不好原在行政院四次會議中的確有討論有討論分散立法放在各部會就現在的修法 七法也有集中立法\n比方說要不要訂海南保護區的部分嗎海南保護區也有討論後來考慮是這樣因為海南保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益還有實際執法問題那後來就決定維持目前就是12海里依照國際法規定12海里我們嚴格執法那這部分的話落實在海南七法有經過充分的討論第二個 各位報告那有關過失犯部分在個案部分我們都會完整收證給檢查\n司法機關 那以鴻泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴法官判決船長三年有期徒刑他就認定船上有海上圖資他明白標示他就在海底電纜上面他竟然下錨所以他是故意的另外中華電信有一個SAW Source系統只要經過他的電區他會發訊號不過這艘船他沒有開AS 沒有接收到\n所以他故意把AIS關閉是 所以檢察官依個案事實認定依據經驗法則 論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯的\n副所長我想還是要再更進一步請教如果說為了保護我們的漁船作業所以我們不宜來劃設所謂的海南保護區我們比照其他的國家比如說你們現在你剛剛談到的我們跟澳洲跟日本跟美國這個所謂的區域聯防的這一塊到底未來應該怎麼做\n或者是說你們未來會怎麼樣去做加強我想很顯然的大家都注意到這個海底電纜不斷的被故意破壞這件事情這個對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅那對於印太區域聯防這件事情你們應該怎麼做你們會怎麼做這個是非常\n好的方向我們現在全力以赴那因為考量國際情勢我們現在透過各種管道包括外交途徑等等我們希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作因為海底電腦是我們國家的生命線對外的生命線那這個都是互相連結的所以希望更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作這一部分相關部會持續努力中\n好來我再進一步請教你所謂的相關合作當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛透過我們的外交管道或者是透過一些國安的系統可能是要跟這些國家去商談嘛那你商談之後的合作模式\n未來會不會顯示在我們的修法的這個層級裡頭你說我們的現在的修法的幅度會不會太過於太過於輕或者是說這個是其實我們跟印太區域的這幾個國家大家相對來講都有一定的默契在執法上面在各個國家在他們的法定的修正上面其實大家會有一定的默契去執行那\n除了海底電纜可能被切斷之後\n有沒有其他的補強措施或者是應急的措施也是可以其他的印太區域國家大家一起共同合作的你只要回答我有或者是沒有就好我不要了解你的細部因為這個細部問題有可能是牽涉到國家機密包括親自分享包括共同打擊相關的類似活動那另外在修法部分對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定\n提高刑責已經到10年而且罰金是5000萬所以這部分有可以發生相當嚇阻所以你覺得現在行政院的版本這個修法的刑責跟罰則你認為是OK的可以達到嚇阻效果根據原報告 紅帶58號不僅是我們台灣第一次破壞立案起訴判決有罪案件更是全世界第一例包括歐洲國家相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果OK 好 了解 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.533 --> 00:07.983\n好謝謝主席我是不是請一下工部長不請工部長\n\n00:14.998 --> 00:39.359\n邱委員早部長早部長我想這個我們今天在處理這個所謂的海濫七法那這目前的三個法是跟經濟委員會有相關謝謝部長剛剛的報告海濫七法我想這個大家最近台灣其實是更能夠深刻的感受到從今年其實也有已經有多起的所謂海濫被破壞的這樣的一個事件\n\n00:40.140 --> 01:04.123\n那這海欄呢其實是我們國家的數位命脈我們有非常多的國際資料傳輸其實都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜那這個七法的目的其實除了要保障以外我覺得很重要的其實國安的問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的部長我直接請教一下現在的行政院的版本\n\n01:05.307 --> 01:22.709\n我們談到了所謂的故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑或者是只有兩百萬元的罰款我請教一下你的故意跟過失是要怎麼樣去做區分\n\n01:23.840 --> 01:41.470\n容易區分的出來嗎那能不能比照所謂的美國電信安全法的模式把這個刑責把它拉高呢這個在過去在我們行政院版的討論的過程裡頭有沒有做這一方面的考量過部長報委員\n\n01:46.223 --> 02:07.063\n故意或過失基本上是法院會認定不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解行為上面呢法院上當然是有分什麼叫故意什麼叫過失嘛行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎基本上他要KAIS出來嘛對不對如果一直在那邊滯留如果他只是通行的話按照道理他的速度應該很容易就過\n\n02:07.728 --> 02:22.368\n但是一直在那邊滯留在那邊打圈圈繞的話那這個就這個就比較明顯當然也不是我們認定的但是這個就比較不是好像是過失而已可能他有特地的用途\n\n02:24.289 --> 02:38.802\n其實你們看過這個海巡署給的相關的資料都能夠看得其實都非常的清楚嘛有很多的這個漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛好那我要請教就是說你們有沒有你們認不認為應該要比照\n\n02:41.664 --> 03:09.427\n比照像美國的這個模式把這個刑期提高又或甚者是我覺得現在整個國際的趨勢去設立一個所謂的海欄保護區比如說美國當然是把刑度提高澳洲紐西蘭他們也設定了所謂的海欄保護區歐盟也成立了所謂的海欄安全行動機制跟其他的國家做區域的聯防\n\n03:10.208 --> 03:23.681\n所以台灣有沒有可能或者說你們有沒有討論過我們是不是應該要來規劃設立所謂的海南保護區作為你們未來要驅離或是沒入這些財閥的很明確的規範有沒有\n\n03:26.226 --> 03:55.401\n有沒有做過討論第一個那如果有討論在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到如果沒有做過討論不劃定保護區的理由是什麼來部長請您一併說明報告委員因為執行端的話是我們是比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行啦那座標我們的座標也都會給海巡它也會公告那來做一些執行這樣子一個情況\n\n03:56.826 --> 04:24.059\n你沒有回答我的問題啊我在問你說有沒有想要設定海嵐的走廊保育區有沒有你跟我講是海委會執行海委會今天有沒有人來海委會來海巡署院有討論過啦但是副署長來副署長請您說明一下好不好原在行政院四次會議中的確有討論有討論分散立法放在各部會就現在的修法七法也有集中立法\n\n04:24.679 --> 04:52.407\n比方說要不要訂海南保護區的部分嗎海南保護區也有討論後來考慮是這樣因為海南保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益還有實際執法問題那後來就決定維持目前就是12海里依照國際法規定12海里我們嚴格執法那這部分的話落實在海南七法有經過充分的討論第二個各位報告那有關過失犯部分在個案部分我們都會完整收證給檢查\n\n04:54.608 --> 05:21.443\n司法機關那以鴻泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴法官判決船長三年有期徒刑他就認定船上有海上圖資他明白標示他就在海底電纜上面他竟然下錨所以他是故意的另外中華電信有一個SAWSource系統只要經過他的電區他會發訊號不過這艘船他沒有開AS沒有接收到\n\n05:22.233 --> 05:29.223\n所以他故意把AIS關閉是所以檢察官依個案事實認定依據經驗法則論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯的\n\n05:34.910 --> 06:01.666\n副所長我想還是要再更進一步請教如果說為了保護我們的漁船作業所以我們不宜來劃設所謂的海南保護區我們比照其他的國家比如說你們現在你剛剛談到的我們跟澳洲跟日本跟美國這個所謂的區域聯防的這一塊到底未來應該怎麼做\n\n06:02.827 --> 06:25.521\n或者是說你們未來會怎麼樣去做加強我想很顯然的大家都注意到這個海底電纜不斷的被故意破壞這件事情這個對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅那對於印太區域聯防這件事情你們應該怎麼做你們會怎麼做這個是非常\n\n06:26.281 --> 06:51.110\n好的方向我們現在全力以赴那因為考量國際情勢我們現在透過各種管道包括外交途徑等等我們希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作因為海底電腦是我們國家的生命線對外的生命線那這個都是互相連結的所以希望更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作這一部分相關部會持續努力中\n\n06:51.901 --> 07:09.170\n好來我再進一步請教你所謂的相關合作當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛透過我們的外交管道或者是透過一些國安的系統可能是要跟這些國家去商談嘛那你商談之後的合作模式\n\n07:10.836 --> 07:38.954\n未來會不會顯示在我們的修法的這個層級裡頭你說我們的現在的修法的幅度會不會太過於太過於輕或者是說這個是其實我們跟印太區域的這幾個國家大家相對來講都有一定的默契在執法上面在各個國家在他們的法定的修正上面其實大家會有一定的默契去執行那\n\n07:39.494 --> 07:42.625\n除了海底電纜可能被切斷之後\n\n07:43.826 --> 08:10.869\n有沒有其他的補強措施或者是應急的措施也是可以其他的印太區域國家大家一起共同合作的你只要回答我有或者是沒有就好我不要了解你的細部因為這個細部問題有可能是牽涉到國家機密包括親自分享包括共同打擊相關的類似活動那另外在修法部分對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定\n\n08:11.409 --> 08:40.424\n提高刑責已經到10年而且罰金是5000萬所以這部分有可以發生相當嚇阻所以你覺得現在行政院的版本這個修法的刑責跟罰則你認為是OK的可以達到嚇阻效果根據原報告紅帶58號不僅是我們台灣第一次破壞立案起訴判決有罪案件更是全世界第一例包括歐洲國家相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果OK好了解謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.533,"end":7.983,"text":"好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下工部長不請工部長"},{"start":14.998,"end":39.359,"text":"邱委員早部長早部長我想這個我們今天在處理這個所謂的海濫七法那這目前的三個法是跟經濟委員會有相關謝謝部長剛剛的報告海濫七法我想這個大家最近台灣其實是更能夠深刻的感受到從今年其實也有已經有多起的所謂海濫被破壞的這樣的一個事件"},{"start":40.14,"end":64.123,"text":"那這海欄呢其實是我們國家的數位命脈我們有非常多的國際資料傳輸其實都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜那這個七法的目的其實除了要保障以外我覺得很重要的其實國安的問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的部長我直接請教一下現在的行政院的版本"},{"start":65.307,"end":82.709,"text":"我們談到了所謂的故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑或者是只有兩百萬元的罰款我請教一下你的故意跟過失是要怎麼樣去做區分"},{"start":83.84,"end":101.47,"text":"容易區分的出來嗎那能不能比照所謂的美國電信安全法的模式把這個刑責把它拉高呢這個在過去在我們行政院版的討論的過程裡頭有沒有做這一方面的考量過部長報委員"},{"start":106.223,"end":127.063,"text":"故意或過失基本上是法院會認定不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解行為上面呢法院上當然是有分什麼叫故意什麼叫過失嘛行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎基本上他要KAIS出來嘛對不對如果一直在那邊滯留如果他只是通行的話按照道理他的速度應該很容易就過"},{"start":127.728,"end":142.368,"text":"但是一直在那邊滯留在那邊打圈圈繞的話那這個就這個就比較明顯當然也不是我們認定的但是這個就比較不是好像是過失而已可能他有特地的用途"},{"start":144.289,"end":158.802,"text":"其實你們看過這個海巡署給的相關的資料都能夠看得其實都非常的清楚嘛有很多的這個漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛好那我要請教就是說你們有沒有你們認不認為應該要比照"},{"start":161.664,"end":189.427,"text":"比照像美國的這個模式把這個刑期提高又或甚者是我覺得現在整個國際的趨勢去設立一個所謂的海欄保護區比如說美國當然是把刑度提高澳洲 紐西蘭他們也設定了所謂的海欄保護區歐盟也成立了所謂的海欄安全行動機制跟其他的國家做區域的聯防"},{"start":190.208,"end":203.681,"text":"所以台灣有沒有可能或者說你們有沒有討論過我們是不是應該要來規劃設立所謂的海南保護區作為你們未來要驅離或是沒入這些財閥的很明確的規範 有沒有"},{"start":206.226,"end":235.401,"text":"有沒有做過討論 第一個那如果有討論在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到如果沒有做過討論不劃定保護區的理由是什麼來 部長請您一併說明報告委員 因為執行端的話是我們是比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行啦那座標 我們的座標也都會給海巡 它也會公告那來做一些執行這樣子一個情況"},{"start":236.826,"end":264.059,"text":"你沒有回答我的問題啊我在問你說有沒有想要設定海嵐的走廊保育區有沒有你跟我講是海委會執行海委會今天有沒有人來海委會來海巡署院有討論過啦但是副署長來副署長請您說明一下好不好原在行政院四次會議中的確有討論有討論分散立法放在各部會就現在的修法 七法也有集中立法"},{"start":264.679,"end":292.407,"text":"比方說要不要訂海南保護區的部分嗎海南保護區也有討論後來考慮是這樣因為海南保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益還有實際執法問題那後來就決定維持目前就是12海里依照國際法規定12海里我們嚴格執法那這部分的話落實在海南七法有經過充分的討論第二個 各位報告那有關過失犯部分在個案部分我們都會完整收證給檢查"},{"start":294.608,"end":321.443,"text":"司法機關 那以鴻泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴法官判決船長三年有期徒刑他就認定船上有海上圖資他明白標示他就在海底電纜上面他竟然下錨所以他是故意的另外中華電信有一個SAW Source系統只要經過他的電區他會發訊號不過這艘船他沒有開AS 沒有接收到"},{"start":322.233,"end":329.223,"text":"所以他故意把AIS關閉是 所以檢察官依個案事實認定依據經驗法則 論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯的"},{"start":334.91,"end":361.666,"text":"副所長我想還是要再更進一步請教如果說為了保護我們的漁船作業所以我們不宜來劃設所謂的海南保護區我們比照其他的國家比如說你們現在你剛剛談到的我們跟澳洲跟日本跟美國這個所謂的區域聯防的這一塊到底未來應該怎麼做"},{"start":362.827,"end":385.521,"text":"或者是說你們未來會怎麼樣去做加強我想很顯然的大家都注意到這個海底電纜不斷的被故意破壞這件事情這個對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅那對於印太區域聯防這件事情你們應該怎麼做你們會怎麼做這個是非常"},{"start":386.281,"end":411.11,"text":"好的方向我們現在全力以赴那因為考量國際情勢我們現在透過各種管道包括外交途徑等等我們希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作因為海底電腦是我們國家的生命線對外的生命線那這個都是互相連結的所以希望更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作這一部分相關部會持續努力中"},{"start":411.901,"end":429.17,"text":"好來我再進一步請教你所謂的相關合作當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛透過我們的外交管道或者是透過一些國安的系統可能是要跟這些國家去商談嘛那你商談之後的合作模式"},{"start":430.836,"end":458.954,"text":"未來會不會顯示在我們的修法的這個層級裡頭你說我們的現在的修法的幅度會不會太過於太過於輕或者是說這個是其實我們跟印太區域的這幾個國家大家相對來講都有一定的默契在執法上面在各個國家在他們的法定的修正上面其實大家會有一定的默契去執行那"},{"start":459.494,"end":462.625,"text":"除了海底電纜可能被切斷之後"},{"start":463.826,"end":490.869,"text":"有沒有其他的補強措施或者是應急的措施也是可以其他的印太區域國家大家一起共同合作的你只要回答我有或者是沒有就好我不要了解你的細部因為這個細部問題有可能是牽涉到國家機密包括親自分享包括共同打擊相關的類似活動那另外在修法部分對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定"},{"start":491.409,"end":520.424,"text":"提高刑責已經到10年而且罰金是5000萬所以這部分有可以發生相當嚇阻所以你覺得現在行政院的版本這個修法的刑責跟罰則你認為是OK的可以達到嚇阻效果根據原報告 紅帶58號不僅是我們台灣第一次破壞立案起訴判決有罪案件更是全世界第一例包括歐洲國家相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果OK 好 了解 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時18分）謝謝主席，我請一下龔部長。"],["主席：我們請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：邱委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，我們今天在處理所謂的海纜七法，而目前這三個法是跟經濟委員會有相關，謝謝部長剛剛的報告。我想最近臺灣大家更能夠深刻地感受到，其實今年也已經有多起的海纜被破壞的事件，而海纜是我們國家的數位命脈，我們有非常多國際資料傳輸都是必須仰賴這些海底的電纜，七法的目的除了要保障以外，我覺得很重要的國安問題才是我們應該要認真去面對的。部長，我直接請教一下，現在行政院的版本談到故意破壞者是處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑；過失者是處六個月以下的徒刑，或者只有200萬元的罰款，「故意」跟「過失」要怎麼樣區分？容易區分得出來嗎？能不能比照美國電信安全法的模式，把刑責拉高呢？過去在我們行政院版討論的過程裡頭，有沒有做過這一方面的考量？部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，故意或過失基本上法院會認定，不過當然有一些樣態我們也可以了解……"],["邱委員議瑩：行為上面呢？法律上當然是有分什麼叫故意，什麼叫過失嘛，行為上你能夠區分得出來嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，基本上它要開AIS出來，對不對？如果一直在那邊滯留，假如它只是通行的話，按照道理它的速度應該很容易就過了，但是一直在那邊滯留、繞圈圈的話，這個就比較明顯……當然也不是我們認定的，但是這個就好像比較不是過失而已，可能它有特定的用途。"],["邱委員議瑩：你們看過海巡署給的相關資料，其實都非常清楚，有很多漁船就是一直在那裡繞圈圈嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：是，甚至它還下錨。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我要請教，你們認不認為應該要比照美國的模式，把刑期提高？甚至我覺得依現在整個國際的趨勢，去設立一個海纜保護區，比如美國當然是把刑度提高；澳洲、紐西蘭也設定了海纜保護區；歐盟也成立了海纜安全行動機制，跟其他的國家做區域的聯防。所以臺灣有沒有可能，或者你們有沒有討論過，是不是應該要規劃設立海纜保護區，作為你們未來驅離或者沒入這些裁罰很明確的規範？有沒有？有沒有做過討論？這是第一個。如果有討論，在法裡頭為什麼沒有看到？如果沒有做過討論，不劃定保護區的理由是什麼？部長，請您一併說明。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為執行端比較是海委會海巡署在幫我們執行，我們的座標也都會給海巡，他們也會公告，來做一些執行。"],["邱委員議瑩：你沒有回答我的問題，我在問你有沒有想要設定海纜的走廊保育區，有沒有？你跟我講是海委會執行，海委會今天有沒有人來？"],["龔部長明鑫：他們也有，因為有討論過啦，但是……"],["邱委員議瑩：海巡署副署長，請您說明一下。"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員，在行政院四次會議中的確有討論，有討論分散立法，放在各部會，就是現在的修法七法；也有集中立法，比方要不要定專法……"],["邱委員議瑩：海纜保護區的部分嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：或海纜保護區也有討論。後來考慮是這樣，因為海纜保護區還涉及到漁民作業權益，還有實際執法問題，後來就決定維持目前12浬，依照國際法規定12浬，我們嚴格執法。這部分落實在海纜七法，有經過充分的討論。第二個，跟委員報告，有關過失犯部分，在個案部分我們都會完整蒐證給檢察、司法機關，以宏泰58號今年2月25號檢察官起訴、法官判決船長三年有期徒刑，就認定船上有海上圖資明白標示它就在海底電纜上面，結果船長竟然下錨，所以他是故意的；另外，中華電信有一個SAWS系統，只要經過它的電區，它會發訊號，不過這艘船沒有開AIS，沒有接收到。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以他故意把AIS關閉？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，所以檢察官依個案事實認定，依據經驗法則、論理法則認定宏泰58號是故意犯。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，副署長，我還是要再更進一步請教，如果為了保護我們的漁船作業，不宜劃設所謂的海纜保護區，那我們比照其他的國家，比如你剛剛談到的，我們跟澳洲、跟日本、跟美國所謂區域聯防的這一塊，到底未來應該怎麼做？或者你們未來會怎麼樣去加強？很顯然地，大家都注意到海底電纜不斷被故意破壞，這對每一國來講都是一個很重大的威脅。關於印太區域聯防這件事情，你們會怎麼做？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這個是非常好的方向，我們現在全力以赴，因為考量國際情勢，我們現在透過各種管道，包括外交途徑等等，希望跟我們理念相近的國家共同合作，因為海底電纜是我們國家對外的生命線，這都是互相連結的，所以更希望亞太地區相關國家共同合作。這一部分相關部會持續努力中。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我再進一步請教，你所謂的相關合作，當然現在一定要先去跟人家談嘛，透過我們的外交管道或國安系統，可能要跟這些國家商談，那商談之後的合作模式未來會不會顯示在我們修法這個層級上？比如我們現在的修法會不會過輕，或者是其實我們跟印太區域這幾個國家相對來講都有一定的默契，就是在執法上面，在各個國家的法令修正上，其實大家會有一定的默契去執行。除了海底電纜可能被切斷，有沒有其他的補強措施或應急的措施，也是其他的印太區域國家可以一起共同合作的？您只要回答我有或者是沒有就好，我不要了解細部的問題，因為細部問題有可能牽涉到國家機密。"],["謝副署長慶欽：有，確實，包括情資分享、共同打擊類似的活動。另外，在修法部分，對於有意圖危害國家安全跟社會安定，已經提高刑責到10年，而且罰金是5,000萬，這部分可以發生相當的嚇阻作用。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以您覺得現在行政院版本的刑責跟罰則是OK的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：可以達到嚇阻效果。跟委員報告，宏泰58號不僅是我們臺灣第一次破壞電纜起訴判決有罪案件，更是全世界第一例，包括歐洲國家等相關國家都在了解我們的應處過程，所以這部分應該可以發揮到適時的嚇阻效果。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，了解，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員的質訊，謝謝相關單位的備詢。","在林岱樺委員質詢前，先確定一下議事錄，請問各位有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見，確定。","請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":412,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-8","speakers":["陳亭妃","羅美玲","邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","賴士葆","葉元之","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","鄭正鈐","黃捷","張嘉郡","林楚茵","陳超明"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美\n惠等20人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人擬具「電\n業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具\n「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「電業法第七十一\n條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草\n案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院\n委員黃捷等22人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬\n具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「電業法第七十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「電業法第七十一條之一條文修\n正草案」案；二、審查： ( 一) 行政院函請審議「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案、(二)本院委員王美惠等20人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員李坤城等18人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗\n華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本\n院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美\n玲等19人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬\n具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「天然氣事\n業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十\n五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(十一)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「天然氣事業法第五十五條之一條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查：(一)行政院函請審議「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委\n員王美惠等19人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員李坤城等18人\n擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)本院委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等\n16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「自來\n水法第三條、第十六條之一及第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員羅美玲等19人擬\n具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員賴惠員等21人擬具「自來水法第\n九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、(八)本院委員黃捷等22人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文\n修正草案」案、(九)本院委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(十)本院委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「自來水法第九十七條之一條文修正草案」案（合併詢答）","agenda_id":"1148901_00007"}}}