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\"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 336.019, \"end\": 336.139, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 336.139, \"end\": 336.239, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 336.239, \"end\": 336.379, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 336.379, \"end\": 336.519, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 336.519, \"end\": 336.699, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 336.699, \"end\": 337.179, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"付\", \"start\": 337.179, \"end\": 337.319, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 337.319, \"end\": 337.579, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 337.579, \"end\": 337.679, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 337.679, \"end\": 337.78, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 337.78, \"end\": 337.9, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 337.9, \"end\": 338.2, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 692.162, \"end\": 692.602, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 692.602, \"end\": 692.742, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 692.742, \"end\": 693.002, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"沈\", \"start\": 693.002, \"end\": 693.162, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"博\", \"start\": 693.162, \"end\": 693.262, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 693.262, \"end\": 693.422, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 693.422, \"end\": 693.442, \"score\": 0.077}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,329 --> 00:00:06,893\n好謝謝主席這個先有請這一個陸委會謝謝好陸委會你要不要傳一下可以\n\n2\n00:00:16,667 --> 00:00:28,631\n吳卓您好APAC的問題我待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下堪稱典範\n\n3\n00:00:32,672 --> 00:00:58,845\n那這個呢當然呢這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢他們對我祭出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題就是剛好今天有這一個傳習會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上當然是其人一鬥啦\n\n4\n00:00:59,725 --> 00:01:15,791\n但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這個東西公佈出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員\n\n5\n00:01:17,131 --> 00:01:44,805\n但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在\n\n6\n00:01:45,325 --> 00:02:01,659\n那我就發現其實房間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情\n\n7\n00:02:02,519 --> 00:02:21,795\n所以不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕所以一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到香港去\n\n8\n00:02:22,655 --> 00:02:47,390\n結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到在花蓮對在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼\n\n9\n00:02:48,170 --> 00:02:54,073\n像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼\n\n10\n00:03:07,421 --> 00:03:28,774\n他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼\n\n11\n00:03:29,634 --> 00:03:45,130\n但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後它這一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為它一直它在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中它會覺得因為台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多\n\n12\n00:03:45,831 --> 00:04:07,212\n所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎\n\n13\n00:04:09,494 --> 00:04:34,080\n有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應\n\n14\n00:04:36,340 --> 00:04:53,389\n是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右\n\n15\n00:04:55,590 --> 00:05:09,446\n我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦\n\n16\n00:05:10,447 --> 00:05:38,440\n我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情好那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會跟用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法\n\n17\n00:05:38,940 --> 00:06:02,409\n但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險包含了像是公務員國會議員等等他們未來出國必須要更加的謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說\n\n18\n00:06:03,129 --> 00:06:22,617\n中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣子的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講\n\n19\n00:06:23,377 --> 00:06:51,556\n對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉你們竟然去竟然去對我們的這個委員國會議員省國安委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法\n\n20\n00:06:53,357 --> 00:07:10,658\n那同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有序交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋\n\n21\n00:07:11,559 --> 00:07:30,809\n對這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平\n\n22\n00:07:31,609 --> 00:07:54,536\n他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長謝謝\n\n23\n00:08:03,163 --> 00:08:22,103\n我也好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程\n\n24\n00:08:26,147 --> 00:08:41,839\n就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事\n\n25\n00:08:42,479 --> 00:09:02,277\n我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施\n\n26\n00:09:03,756 --> 00:09:19,339\n我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這個可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來\n\n27\n00:09:20,260 --> 00:09:48,998\n而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法就不構成引渡雖然它其實有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它\n\n28\n00:09:50,098 --> 00:10:19,158\n廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威\n\n29\n00:10:19,918 --> 00:10:45,709\n而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障\n\n30\n00:10:46,950 --> 00:11:01,408\n這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方\n\n31\n00:11:02,309 --> 00:11:20,856\n因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行\n\n32\n00:11:21,616 --> 00:11:33,442\n還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交不來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n329\t6893\t好 謝謝主席這個先有請這一個陸委會 謝謝好 陸委會你要不要傳一下可以\n16667\t28631\t吳卓您好APAC的問題我待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下堪稱典範\n32672\t58845\t那這個呢 當然呢 這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子 我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢 他們對我祭出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題 就是剛好今天有這一個傳習會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講 他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上 當然是其人一鬥啦\n59725\t75791\t但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官 檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這個東西公佈出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員\n77131\t104805\t但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛 對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在\n105325\t121659\t那我就發現其實房間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情\n122519\t141795\t所以不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕所以一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到香港去\n142655\t167390\t結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到在花蓮對 在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼\n168170\t174073\t像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼\n187421\t208774\t他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼\n209634\t225130\t但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後它這一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為它一直它在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中它會覺得因為台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多\n225831\t247212\t所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎\n249494\t274080\t有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應\n276340\t293389\t是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右\n295590\t309446\t我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦\n310447\t338440\t我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情好那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會跟用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法\n338940\t362409\t但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險包含了像是公務員國會議員等等他們未來出國必須要更加的謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說\n363129\t382617\t中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣子的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講\n383377\t411556\t對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉你們竟然去竟然去對我們的這個委員國會議員 省國安委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法\n413357\t430658\t那同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有序交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋\n431559\t450809\t對 這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平\n451609\t474536\t他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長 謝謝\n483163\t502103\t我也好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程\n506147\t521839\t就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事\n522479\t542277\t我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施\n543756\t559339\t我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這個可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來\n560260\t588998\t而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法就不構成引渡雖然它其實有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它\n590098\t619158\t廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威\n619918\t645709\t而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障\n646950\t661408\t這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方\n662309\t680856\t因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行\n681616\t693442\t還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交不來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席這個先有請這一個陸委會 謝謝好 陸委會你要不要傳一下可以\n吳卓您好APAC的問題我待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下堪稱典範\n那這個呢 當然呢 這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子 我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢 他們對我祭出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題 就是剛好今天有這一個傳習會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講 他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上 當然是其人一鬥啦\n但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官 檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這個東西公佈出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員\n但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛 對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在\n那我就發現其實房間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情\n所以不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕所以一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到香港去\n結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到在花蓮對 在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼\n像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼\n他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼\n但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後它這一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為它一直它在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中它會覺得因為台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多\n所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎\n有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應\n是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右\n我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦\n我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情好那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會跟用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法\n但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險包含了像是公務員國會議員等等他們未來出國必須要更加的謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說\n中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣子的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講\n對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉你們竟然去竟然去對我們的這個委員國會議員 省國安委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法\n那同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有序交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋\n對 這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平\n他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長 謝謝\n我也好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程\n就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事\n我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施\n我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這個可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來\n而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法就不構成引渡雖然它其實有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它\n廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威\n而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障\n這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方\n因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行\n還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交不來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.329 --> 00:06.893\n好謝謝主席這個先有請這一個陸委會謝謝好陸委會你要不要傳一下可以\n\n00:16.667 --> 00:28.631\n吳卓您好APAC的問題我待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下堪稱典範\n\n00:32.672 --> 00:58.845\n那這個呢當然呢這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢他們對我祭出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題就是剛好今天有這一個傳習會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上當然是其人一鬥啦\n\n00:59.725 --> 01:15.791\n但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這個東西公佈出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員\n\n01:17.131 --> 01:44.805\n但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在\n\n01:45.325 --> 02:01.659\n那我就發現其實房間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情\n\n02:02.519 --> 02:21.795\n所以不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕所以一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到香港去\n\n02:22.655 --> 02:47.390\n結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到在花蓮對在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼\n\n02:48.170 --> 02:54.073\n像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼\n\n03:07.421 --> 03:28.774\n他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼\n\n03:29.634 --> 03:45.130\n但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後它這一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為它一直它在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中它會覺得因為台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多\n\n03:45.831 --> 04:07.212\n所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎\n\n04:09.494 --> 04:34.080\n有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應\n\n04:36.340 --> 04:53.389\n是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右\n\n04:55.590 --> 05:09.446\n我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦\n\n05:10.447 --> 05:38.440\n我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情好那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會跟用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法\n\n05:38.940 --> 06:02.409\n但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險包含了像是公務員國會議員等等他們未來出國必須要更加的謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說\n\n06:03.129 --> 06:22.617\n中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣子的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講\n\n06:23.377 --> 06:51.556\n對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉你們竟然去竟然去對我們的這個委員國會議員省國安委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法\n\n06:53.357 --> 07:10.658\n那同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有序交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋\n\n07:11.559 --> 07:30.809\n對這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平\n\n07:31.609 --> 07:54.536\n他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長謝謝\n\n08:03.163 --> 08:22.103\n我也好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程\n\n08:26.147 --> 08:41.839\n就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事\n\n08:42.479 --> 09:02.277\n我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施\n\n09:03.756 --> 09:19.339\n我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這個可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來\n\n09:20.260 --> 09:48.998\n而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法就不構成引渡雖然它其實有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它\n\n09:50.098 --> 10:19.158\n廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威\n\n10:19.918 --> 10:45.709\n而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障\n\n10:46.950 --> 11:01.408\n這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方\n\n11:02.309 --> 11:20.856\n因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行\n\n11:21.616 --> 11:33.442\n還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交不來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.329,"end":6.893,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個先有請這一個陸委會 謝謝好 陸委會你要不要傳一下可以"},{"start":16.667,"end":28.631,"text":"吳卓您好APAC的問題我待會兒晚一點再問今天我先問這一個因為今天這個案子跟我自己有關所以我在左上角有大大的打上射擊事件還是要提醒一下堪稱典範"},{"start":32.672,"end":58.845,"text":"那這個呢 當然呢 這一個可能如果已經知道就是說前陣子 我人那時候其實還在韓國啦那我在韓國的時候呢 他們對我祭出這一個要做這個所謂的偵查那我現在比較擔心的一件事情就是第一個是時機問題 就是剛好今天有這一個傳習會那他們在這一個之前呢其實APEC對他們來講 他們要運用更多的談資啊等等之類的這個時機上 當然是其人一鬥啦"},{"start":59.725,"end":75.791,"text":"但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是因為前陣子我們就可以看到像這個台辦他們就已經有說我們台灣的什麼法官 檢察官什麼等等之類的就把這個東西公佈出來所以我會覺得說因為今天他雖然是針對我是一個國會議員"},{"start":77.131,"end":104.805,"text":"但我現在比較擔心的因為畢竟這是我自己的個案我不想做太多的延伸我比較想要知道的就是說它接下來有可能比如說對我們的軍公教軍公教軍已經出現了嘛 對不對就是針對我們的資通電啊等等之類的而公其實我們剛剛講司法人員這個也開始出現了然後接下來往下又可能會針對到一般的人民所以這個是一個很大的問題是在於說我們常常講說長臂管轄那長臂管轄這一個概念呢世界各國其實都存在"},{"start":105.325,"end":121.659,"text":"那我就發現其實房間當然會有一個謬誤就是說這個美國也有長臂管轄台灣也有長臂管轄但很大的一個差別是在於說我們的長臂管轄可能是針對比如說殺人案件針對嚴重的案件但中國的長臂管轄是針對傷害中國人民感情"},{"start":122.519,"end":141.795,"text":"所以不管是他用成都22還是他用國安等等之類的他所設成的這個範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄會可怕所以一般人民其實本來可能不一定會遇到但我就想到在去年的時候應該還是去年還是今年應該是去年就是我們有立委也是到香港去"},{"start":142.655,"end":167.39,"text":"結果有一個一般的人民跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕所以這是一般人民也會遇到在花蓮對 在花蓮所以這個當然那是因為在香港所以是稍微比較特別因為畢竟對他們來講算境內但是如果今天一樣的事情發生不在香港在別的國家的話那該怎麼辦所以我覺得以陸委會來講現在我們面臨的一個危機就是在於說他們現在是步步進逼"},{"start":168.17,"end":174.073,"text":"像我們在灰色地帶常講它可能是逼近你的這個海峽這個海峽中線逼近你的這個12海里本來可能今天是這個漁船可能以後變成是海警然後以後可能變成是軍隊這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼但它對於個人的長臂管轄的這個層階也會步步進逼"},{"start":187.421,"end":208.774,"text":"他以往就是在網頁上面說我要懲戒你們我們在這邊也是覺得有點哈哈大笑就是說你懲戒你到底要懲戒什麼但接下來他把範圍擴大比如說他今天對我的這個懲戒他開始給予我的家人給予什麼跟我有任何商業往來的對象然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查我相信再來就是通緝還有這個缺席審判所以這也是一種步步進逼"},{"start":209.634,"end":225.13,"text":"但我現在擔心的是你看剛剛我講的範圍擴張如果急於一般人民然後它這一個步步進逼之下中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本因為它一直它在這一年以來不斷的進逼嘛那進逼的過程當中它會覺得因為台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多"},{"start":225.831,"end":247.212,"text":"所以以陸委會的角度來講有沒有第一個我就問兩個問題第一個就是有沒有一個比較有創意的方式就是說我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的我覺得這是第一個那第二個就是因為一般人民會遇到這些事情以後看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到那我們在宣導方面就是大家可能會面臨的危機是什麼陸委會現在有這樣的一個預算嗎"},{"start":249.494,"end":274.08,"text":"有這樣的一個能量去做這個事情嗎因為陸委會去年就已經面臨有些人就說不是說都不要交流了嗎乾脆不要預算了就開始有人在喊這些東西嘛那現在中國已經有這樣的一個危機來針對台灣如果我們沒有去足夠的這個能量去因應這一定會是一個問題這就跟朱問的情形一樣嘛你沒有今天沒有時間做宣導就有可能會導致這一個這個病毒的擴散所以我想問對於這兩個問題陸委會的回應"},{"start":276.34,"end":293.389,"text":"是非常謝謝委員您剛提了非常多寶貴意見我們都回去整理一下那關於您的兩個問題第二個問題比較好回答我先回應一下那麼我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講預算無上限然後人員來說的話因為他們量體也比較大基本上大概我們查到官是官方的涉台系統的人士大概就有高達60萬左右"},{"start":295.59,"end":309.446,"text":"我們陸委會就只有100多位我們的預算沒有超過10億不是昨天今年還被砍了非常的多連這個電費本來都只能繳到9月份還好有追加回來所以確實對於陸委會的同仁來講我們今天同仁在這邊也都非常的辛苦"},{"start":310.447,"end":338.44,"text":"我們對於這個相關的要防止統戰啦維護國家安全的這個工作來說幾乎是在最有限的而且是非常稀少的預算底下我們要用到極致但確實是有非常大的這個困難我們也非常真的是非常希望委員能夠各位委員能夠繼續支持我們這個陸委會在做這個事情好那關於第一件事情來講的話能不能有一些創意首先我們要回應的就是說我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的這個方式我們不會跟用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的這個做法"},{"start":338.94,"end":362.409,"text":"但是我們第一件事情要講的就是說我們會繼續的去揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖手段還有他們的策略讓國人能夠清楚的知道再來第二個事情的話就是剛剛委員您提到的我們也會提醒相關的風險包含了像是公務員國會議員等等他們未來出國必須要更加的謹慎但是我們也同時也有一些做法舉個例子來說"},{"start":363.129,"end":382.617,"text":"中國也還是非常的希望能夠有各式各樣的到台灣來進行交流也好或者稅刑統戰也好那用合法的這個方式來進行包裝那我們會特別提醒他們如果還是用這麼不文明的這個手段來恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話那麼未來的這樣子的交流這樣子的這個氣氛是非常不利於交流的舉個例子來講"},{"start":383.377,"end":411.556,"text":"對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作所以你宣稱是台辦的人員結果來不了台灣很有可能這個位置會坐不久但我們就不斷的提醒說可以我們當然歡迎你來但是要健康有趣的交流那現在我也不瞞委員講也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來那我們就跟他講說很抱歉你們竟然去竟然去對我們的這個委員國會議員 省國安委員去做了這麼不文明的這個事情現在你要申請來台灣這個氣氛我們就覺得沒辦法"},{"start":413.357,"end":430.658,"text":"那同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去讓他們知道說去做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的這種事情其實不利於他們自己本身的對台的健康有序交流的一個推動所以我們會適時的一方面揭露二方面也會把兩岸的交流的這一塊來講更多風險的這個部分來講會予以阻擋"},{"start":431.559,"end":450.809,"text":"對 這就好像回應到剛剛巧信已經離開了他剛剛放了這個難得的報告請你要回應其實對我來講就是說我們當然都希望這個世界要和平我相信沒有人會希望這個世界有戰爭不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議現在最麻煩的地方就是中國看起來的舉動他就是沒有想要和平"},{"start":451.609,"end":474.536,"text":"他做不管是對立案的偵查對於國人的恐嚇他沒有想要往這個方向進行所以這個前提本身就不存在我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員還有國內的一些政治人物對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的所以也才會一直有不斷的這樣的一個論述出現但接下來因為時間的關係我想就追問這個可能要請外交部請這個部長 謝謝"},{"start":483.163,"end":502.103,"text":"我也好部長好這個就是其實延續我剛剛這一個問題就是在於說因為我們現在常外交這件事情很重要我這陣子也是一直出國立法委員其實本身就是國會外交其實也是外交的一部分但是像中國現在做這樣的一個事情它今天只針對我一個人但接下來有可能會擴張它其實實質上會妨礙到外交的進程"},{"start":506.147,"end":521.839,"text":"就是說我今天去一些國家因為我今天要去的一些國家很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家中國勢力比較強盛的國家他用這樣的一個方式假設他未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的他等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事"},{"start":522.479,"end":542.277,"text":"我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講就是說大家當然很關注這件事但我相信其實發生在我身上的事情在外交同仁的身上已經發生過很多次了我們外交同仁是常常受到騷擾一年之內要搬很多次家都只是因為被中國針對所以針對這樣的一個情形我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施"},{"start":543.756,"end":559.339,"text":"我們有通電訓練我們的外館跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調如果發生類似這種情形因為這個可能在當地國違法反而自己中共的人會被抓起來"},{"start":560.26,"end":588.998,"text":"而且它要所謂構成這個包括所謂的要引渡回去這個很複雜的這裡是有條件的這個政治犯良心犯是不能引渡而且畢竟兩地都有法律的基礎所以當地國如果沒有像中共訂的這些法就不構成引渡雖然它其實有引渡條約或司法互助的條約所以這都有很多前提所以我們不是說我們是不要去留意我們要留意而且因應而且要把它"},{"start":590.098,"end":619.158,"text":"廣為宣傳去結合一些國家因為中共的境外這個這個長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人也針對其他國家的這個在美國在法國在英國在很多國家其實都已經是去干擾到人家的一個法律的體系而且這個違反這些所謂的刑罰的原則中共當然他有可能有一些他的鐵桿國家他可能為了要立威"},{"start":619.918,"end":645.709,"text":"而製造一兩個這種情形所以這種國家我們要特別的留意包括我們的國人以外包括我們怎麼去應處跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好的這些國家來做一起因應這個問題因為這問題中共在一些國家設有警察局這些服務站等等這已經是干擾到人家民主法治以及對人權的保障"},{"start":646.95,"end":661.408,"text":"這邊就是這個謝謝部長的回應這邊就是稍微我再延伸一下就是大概30秒就是說現在中國他們要在引渡的時候他會針對這種政治他會故意用別的比如用金融犯罪用洗錢他會針對特別用這一塊所以當然是有麻煩的地方"},{"start":662.309,"end":680.856,"text":"因為今天本來我是還要再問APEC但因為時間到了我只是要再確保因為APEC接下來會在中國所以這件事情當然是一個會是未來需要去應處的因為今天這個川習應該是現在還在進行當中所以有些問題我覺得看之後有機會的話我想要再詢問就是APEC接下來要再舉行"},{"start":681.616,"end":693.442,"text":"還有這個川習會之後的這一個有可能產生的一些結論我們在外交上該如何因應然後還有國會外交的有些問題我就等到下一次外交不來的時候再一起問好了是謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝沈博洋委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":411,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時45分）好，謝謝主席。先有請陸委會，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請陸委會。"],["沈委員伯洋：副座，你好。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：我晚一點再問APEC的問題，今天我先問一個問題，因為這個案子跟我自己有關，所以我在左上角有寫了大大的「涉己事件」，還是要提醒一下。"],["主席：堪稱典範。"],["沈委員伯洋：陸委會可能已經知道，就是前陣子我人在韓國的時候，他們對我祭出要做所謂的偵查，我現在比較擔心一些事情，第一個就是時機問題，剛好今天有川習會，在這個之前，其實APEC對他們來講，他們要運用更多的談資等等，在時機上當然是啟人疑竇，但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是在前陣子我們看到台辦已經有說我們台灣的法官、檢察官等等之類的，就把這個東西公布出來，我覺得今天雖然是針對我，那我是一個國會議員，畢竟這是我自己的個案，我不想做太多的延伸。我比較擔心的就是他接下來有可能是對我們的軍公教，軍已經出現了，對不對？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：就是針對我們的資通電等等之類的，在公的方面，其實我們剛剛講的司法人員也開始出現了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：然後接下來又可能會針對一般的人民，所以這有一個很大的問題是我們常常在講的長臂管轄，長臂管轄這個概念在世界各國其實都存在，我發現坊間有一個謬誤，就是美國有長臂管轄，台灣也有長臂管轄，但是有一個很大的差別，就是我們的長臂管轄可能是針對殺人案件、針對嚴重的案件，但是中國的長臂管轄卻是傷害中國人民感情，所以不管他是用懲獨22條還是用國安等等之類的，他這個射程的範圍是獨裁國家才會有的範圍，這也是為什麼他的長臂管轄很可怕。其實一般人民本來可能不一定會遇到，但是我就想到在去年的時候有立委到香港去，結果有一個一般人民在跟著他去之後就在那邊被逮捕了。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，是花蓮的。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以這是一般人民也會遇到的，當然那是在香港，所以會比較特別，因為畢竟對他們來講是算境內，但是如果今天一樣的事情不是發生在香港而是在別的國家，那該怎麼辦？我覺得以陸委會來講，現在我們面臨一個危機就是他們在步步進逼，像我們常講的灰色地帶，他可能是逼近海峽中線、逼近你的12浬，或是本來今天是漁船，可能以後變成是海警，然後以後可能變成是軍隊，這個是灰色地帶的步步進逼。那他對於個人長臂管轄的懲戒也會步步進逼，他以往就是在網頁上面說要懲戒你們，我們在這邊也是哈哈大笑，覺得你到底要懲戒什麼嘛！但是接下來他把範圍擴大了，比如說，他今天對我的懲戒開始及於我的家人、及於跟我有任何商業往來的對象，然後接下來又說要開始立案偵查，我相信再來就是通緝還有缺席審判，這也是一種步步進逼。但是我現在會擔心，你看像我剛剛講的範圍擴張，如果及於一般人民，然後在他這樣步步進逼之下，中國可能會覺得沒有什麼成本，因為他在這一年以來不斷地進逼，在進逼的過程當中，他會覺得台灣這邊反制的動作也不是很多。我就請問兩個問題，以陸委會的角度來講，第一個，有沒有一個比較有創意的方式？就是我們要讓中國知道他做這些法律戰是有成本的，我覺得這是第一個；第二個，因為一般人民也會遇到這些事情，看起來在未來是非常有可能遇到，那我們要宣導來讓大家知道可能會面臨什麼危機，陸委會現在有這方面的預算嗎？有這樣的能量去做這個事情嗎？因為陸委會去年就已經面臨一個情形，就是有些人主張不是說都不要交流了，那就乾脆不要預算了，開始有人在喊這些東西。現在已經有中國針對台灣這樣的危機，如果我們沒有足夠的能量去因應，這一定會是一個問題，這就跟豬瘟的情形一樣，若今天沒有時間宣導，就有可能會導致病毒擴散，對於這兩個問題，陸委會的回應是？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員，您剛剛提了非常多寶貴的意見，我們都回去整理一下。關於您的兩個問題，第二個問題比較好回答，我先回應一下。我們知道中國對於台灣的統戰來講，預算無上限，以人員來說的話，因為他們量體也比較大，基本上我們查到光是官方的涉台系統人士大概就有高達60萬左右，而陸委會就只有一百多位，我們的預算沒有超過10億，今年還被砍了非常多，連電費本來都只能繳到9月份，還好有追加回來。確實對於陸委會的同仁來講，今天同仁在這邊也都非常辛苦，我們對於相關要防止統戰、維護國家安全的工作來說，幾乎是在最有限的，而且是非常稀少的預算底下要用到極致，但確實是有非常大的困難，我們真的非常希望各位委員能夠繼續支持陸委會在做的事情。","關於第一件事情，能不能有一些創意？首先要回應的是，我們絕對不會用以暴制暴的方式，不會用這種不文明的方式來對付他們不文明的作法，但第一件事情要講的是，我們會繼續揭露中國做這樣事情的意圖、手段及策略，讓國人能夠清楚知道。第二個事情，就是剛剛委員所提到的，我們也會提醒相關的風險，包含公務員、國會議員等未來出國必須要更加謹慎。","但我們也同時有一些作法，舉個例子來說，中國也還是非常希望能夠有各式各樣的方式到台灣進行交流或遂行統戰，用合法的方式進行包裝。我們會特別提醒他們，如果還是用這麼不文明的手段恐嚇我國國人包含國會議員在內的話，那麼未來這樣子的氣氛是非常不利於交流的。又舉個例子來講，對岸有非常多省份的台辦人員一直很希望能夠到台灣來，因為他們在台辦就是要針對台灣工作，所以宣稱是台辦的人員，結果來不了台灣，很有可能這個位置會坐不久，而我們就不斷地提醒說：可以，我們當然歡迎你來，但是要健康有序的交流。現在我也不瞞委員說，也有一些台辦的人還想要再進來，我們就跟他講：很抱歉，你們竟然對我們的國會議員──沈伯洋委員去做了這麼不文明的事情，現在你要申請來台灣，在這個氣氛下，我們覺得沒辦法。同時我們也希望他們能夠把這個意見帶回去，讓他們知道做這樣子破壞兩岸交流的事情，其實不利於他們自己本身對台健康有序交流的推動。所以我們會適時地一方面揭露，二方面也會把兩岸交流更多風險的部分予以阻擋。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這就好像回應到巧芯剛剛放的蘭德報告，其實也要回應。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：對我來講，我們當然都希望世界要和平，相信沒有人會希望世界有戰爭，不管那一個智庫做了什麼建議，現在最麻煩的地方是，中國看起來的舉動就是沒有想要和平，對不對？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：它做了不管是對於立案的偵查，或是對於國人的恐嚇，它沒有想要往這個方向進行，所以這個前提本身就不存在。我會認為不管是外國的一些智庫成員，還有國內的一些政治人物，對於這個前提的認識其實是不足夠的，因此也才會一直不斷地有這樣的論述出現。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：接下來，因為時間的關係，我想就追問……這個可能要請外交部部長，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。延續我剛剛的問題，因為外交這件事情很重要，我這陣子也一直出國，立法委員的國會外交其實也是外交的一部分，而中國現在做這樣的事情，它今天只針對我一個人，但接下來有可能會擴張，這實質上會妨礙到外交的進程。也就是我要去的一些國家，很有可能也是中國要統戰的國家、中國勢力比較強盛的國家，它用這樣的方式，假設它未來發布了通緝或什麼之類的，等於是在阻止我們的立法委員要做國會外交這件事。我今天其實有跟媒體朋友講，大家當然很關注這件事，但我相信發生在我身上的事情，在外交同仁身上已經發生過很多次了，我們外交同仁常常受到騷擾，一年之內要搬很多次家，都只是因為被中國針對。針對這樣的情形，我們在外交上有什麼比較重要的因應措施？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有通電訓令外館，跟當地國政府其實都在溝通協調，如果發生類似這種情形，因為這也可能在當地國違法，反而中共的人會被抓起來，而且要構成所謂的引渡回去，這個很複雜的，是有條件的，政治犯、良心犯不能引渡，而且必須兩地都有法律的基礎，所以當地國如果沒有向中共訂定這些法，就不構成引渡，雖然它即使有引渡條約或司法互助條約。這都有很多前提，不是說我們不要去留意，我們要留意，而且因應，並且要把它廣為宣傳，去結合一些國家，因為中共的境外長臂管轄跟跨境鎮壓不是只有針對台灣人，也針對其他國家的人，這在美國、法國、英國等很多國家，其實都已經干擾到人家的法律體系，而且違反這些刑法的原則。","當然中共可能有一些它的鐵桿國家，它可能為了要立威而製造一、兩個這種情形，所以這種國家我們要特別留意，包括我們的國人以外，也包括我們怎麼去應處，跨部會以及跟其他國際的友好國家來做，一起因應這個問題，因為這問題，中共在一些國家設有警察局或服務站等等，這已經干擾到人家的民主法治以及對人權的保障。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長的回應，這邊我稍微再延伸一下，大概30秒，現在中國要在引渡的時候，針對這種政治，它會故意用別的，比如用金融犯罪、用洗錢，它會特別針對這一塊，所以當然是個麻煩的地方。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：今天本來我還要再問APEC，但因為時間到了，我只是要再確保，因為APEC接下來會在中國，所以這件事情當然會是未來需要去應處的。今天的川習會應該現在還在進行當中，有些問題之後有機會的話我想要再詢問，就是APEC接下來要再舉行，還有川習會之後有可能產生的一些結論，我們在外交上該如何因應？以及國會外交的有些問題，我就等到下一次外交部來的時候再一起問好了。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員。","部長，建議外交部對於旅遊安全的部分，對於用政治的、不文明的、違反國際方式的這種長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓的這個欄位，應該要有一個正面表列。另外，如果友盟國家可以公開表達反對的話，我覺得對穩定國人……其實我們兩個都剛從國外回來，坦白講，我還是講那句：中國做這個沒用啦！但我們還是要讓人民知道，不用去畏懼這種恐嚇。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林楚茵委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}}