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00:01:06,931\n我們也查過相關的虛擬資產交易的事實國人大概70%是使用境外的業者所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記您覺得是什麼原因\n\n4\n00:01:07,532 --> 00:01:28,669\n我想剛才那個也有委員提到就是台灣的滲透度相對是低這些低滲透度的人呢大部分現在因為我們過去沒有這樣的一個立法所以他必須透過一個境外的交易這也是為什麼說假設我們這個產業未來要發展我們要專法因為大部分的人我們需要他未來是透過一個文化館的管道你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記\n\n5\n00:01:30,546 --> 00:01:55,840\n我想境外當然是第一個啦因為他們之前都來登記過一兩年都沒有下文這才是問題嘛主委您來的時候這個問題我也質詢過很多次重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試考試規則要明確內容要清楚審查標準要有一致也就是說我來考試我知道我考了幾分會及格我就會來考試嘛\n\n6\n00:01:57,401 --> 00:02:06,217\n但是我連來考試我不知道我怎麼考怎麼努力可能都不會及格那我來考試幹嘛我現在的問題是您現在的標準\n\n7\n00:02:07,779 --> 00:02:28,076\n八家通過好那二十幾家很多有問題沒有通過那目前為止這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎當然很清楚我們的登記辦法裡面一項一項我只看到一大堆要的文件但是好像沒有說你這一個文件缺了你就怎麼樣然後或者是說資本市足率要多少\n\n8\n00:02:28,917 --> 00:02:55,669\n食臭資本要多少最低標準有公告嗎我們食臭資本是在專法裡面才會訂定所以專法還沒有登記制還是以洗房為基礎那接下來專法才是以機構管理強化專法裡面就會說清楚了會所以現在等於說你們也不希望人家現在就來登記不是就是說我們不同階段你聽懂我的意思嗎如果我們有為什麼不一次說清楚已經有人在登記了你又要等專法那是怎樣咧\n\n9\n00:02:56,849 --> 00:03:21,097\n不是主委我的意思是如果你要考試有人在登記然後你又告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來那你現在登記什麼規不是我們現在登記制也很清楚他可以來申請也都沒有問題對不對但不知道會不會過因為沒有標準審查的東西不是一個就是一個類似一個自動化進去就會出來我的意思是說如果有要登記就把他登記的規則說清楚\n\n10\n00:03:23,338 --> 00:03:49,291\n我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記不會不會規則很清楚否則不會有人來申請這是第一我希望如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的我希望全部的正當合法的業者都會希望來台灣做登記剛剛講得很好那個正當合法是我同意我們希望正當合法的現在是個透明化的政府沒有辦法就是說我們最後\n\n11\n00:03:50,471 --> 00:04:10,407\n我沒有什麼意見我只有說規則公佈清楚不要像上次一樣進來登記送了半天的件然後不知道為什麼沒有通過這才是大家會疑慮的第二個我們希望業者來登記申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦願意來被你管的盡量能夠被你管最好啦對我們來說因為這樣的國人他才找得到對象他想要被管就請他好好的來登記\n\n12\n00:04:16,552 --> 00:04:40,828\n對沒有錯那只要符合相關的條件我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管沒有錯我們想法跟我一樣不要讓他在境外然後賺我們台灣人這麼多錢可是我們管不到他這才奇怪嘛但是你就要符合我們的要求啊同意所以標準清楚一致第二個部分是70%的境外業者占了台灣所有大概虛擬資產的我希望這個專法也希望能夠把他們\n\n13\n00:04:45,631 --> 00:05:00,120\n納到台灣讓我們來好好的監管這才是接下去我們應該要做的目的而且我們的專法裡面已經講好你是境外的Vespa就可以來申請是我們是希望他來適用這個法規而不是用法規把他排在外面\n\n14\n00:05:00,540 --> 00:05:17,814\n不會啦我想說只要符合我們規定我們其實沒有再區分這個接下來是只要它經過營運的話它將來就是定義說目前是虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的所以目前這營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎\n\n15\n00:05:19,804 --> 00:05:33,611\n應該講說他不是金融機構但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管因為他將來草案裡面你也開放借貸也開放移轉這些相關保管這些業務其實有借貸的話就是類同銀行的\n\n16\n00:05:34,432 --> 00:05:48,933\n確實委員講的沒有錯假設借貸商的部分接下來我們就看他的業務範圍到他比如說槓桿或是他今天比如說今天做如果他有到借貸他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任這也是為什麼這個開始就要資本氏族的規範\n\n17\n00:05:49,734 --> 00:06:13,685\n是所以我就說這個標準趕快訂出來對我們執法已經在訂定中對業者來說他也要做好準備第二個對民眾來說他也知道說這家業者我去買有保障今天的問題是保障我們希望能夠登記就是希望你是一個好的業者你的相關的規定都符合規定然後我們的消費者有保障同意這是同一批的同一個邏輯\n\n18\n00:06:14,545 --> 00:06:44,005\n所以接下來就是如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款然後又銷售虛擬資產又用虛擬資產來受信來借貸那其實他的管理就很重要萬一萬一萬一有像一些業者如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機或者是他運作有問題那現在這個專法還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣去保障之後消費者\n\n19\n00:06:44,765 --> 00:06:55,636\n對我想這裡面剛才提到就是說我們在會分級管理不同的業態我們上面有七種業態會根據不同的業態比如說保管商的風險跟比如說借貸商的風險是截然不同的對這些都要把它訂清楚所以我之前有講過嘛比如說像我們看到\n\n20\n00:07:04,045 --> 00:07:28,021\n美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備也就是說他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗那一樣的我認為啦這些業者他們現在如果真的狀況你現在的專法看起來只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託也好或者是自己做好相關的準備\n\n21\n00:07:28,621 --> 00:07:46,655\n有沒有要求他們做其他的方式就像我們對現在很多我們當初開放電資電資是有基金的我們有信託所以我們就這樣未來也會比照這樣的方式來判你覺得信託就夠了沒有我們會根據不同那是一個概念信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託\n\n22\n00:07:48,796 --> 00:08:05,218\n沒有只有法幣就是它的法幣先因為它主要是跟客戶的資產只有法幣我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況我的意思是說我認為類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了因為委員提醒很多次就有關當一個\n\n23\n00:08:06,980 --> 00:08:16,529\n不會只有他放個信託就會沒事啦對機構就會有個退場的問題所以我們的退場機制也是而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差也就是說他就算去信託了足夠的法幣可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了這種情況下怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益我認為在這個新的專法裡面可能主委要把\n\n24\n00:08:31,443 --> 00:08:49,698\n他既然他可能有類同銀行的業務那我們就類同銀行的管理的思考但是又可能要維持他一定的所謂的自由度我同意要做一些相關的特別的處理但是一樣要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償能夠找得到人\n\n25\n00:08:51,900 --> 00:09:11,457\n那當然因為如果是由金管會納管的話我想大家誠如剛剛委員講說大家還是希望由金管會來管理嘛大家比較有信心所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦因為之前的政企局也是蠻辛苦的因為這個東西沒人見過所以壓在他們這邊的確也是一份很大的負擔那既然\n\n26\n00:09:11,937 --> 00:09:32,385\n既然要接手了我們就希望所有願意在台灣登記落地納管的業者希望他來遵循台灣的法令希望他能夠進來登記的時候我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的第二個我們不希望說他們還是繼續的在境外然後用跳過各種的方法否則我們就是有本事我們就把他們封鎖不要讓他們連到台灣的網路嗎\n\n27\n00:09:34,727 --> 00:10:02,175\n不然他只要存在台灣人就去買然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況既然我們要管他願意來登記我們的規則清楚然後希望所有的人都在台灣落地這樣才能真正保障台灣的消費者也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作否則就像剛剛昆城委員說的刑事警察去找他們都找不到這種狀況如果你今天沒有納管會更嚴重啊\n\n28\n00:10:03,528 --> 00:10:29,833\n那罅管的都可能有問題了不罅管的更找不到人啦規則清楚是我們應該做的啦所以我的意思是我們的法規清楚明確讓業者都能進來如果你不進來我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序我們會讓你們在台灣做不了生意你才有辦法好好管謝謝謝謝委員的建議謝謝好謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請王世堅委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1430\t主委早我想大家都非常關心的虛擬資產那接下來你們要送你們的專法過來那現在申請來做所謂的虛擬資產服務商的相關的登記那也經過你們公告目前是原來的20幾家現在只有9家通過對吧\n24821\t51192\t原來二十幾家剩八家那其中有一家是新申請OK所以是八家那二十五家只剩八家原因是什麼原因很多我想在過去這段時間來看各位看到有些是涉犯一些不法行為有些是因為我們的標準提高他無法無法符合所以一家新的不是原來的然後來申請那他是境外的還是國內的都是境內都是境內是的\n52873\t66931\t我們也查過相關的虛擬資產交易的事實國人大概70%是使用境外的業者所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記您覺得是什麼原因\n67532\t88669\t我想剛才那個也有委員提到就是台灣的滲透度相對是低這些低滲透度的人呢大部分現在因為我們過去沒有這樣的一個立法所以他必須透過一個境外的交易這也是為什麼說假設我們這個產業未來要發展我們要專法因為大部分的人我們需要他未來是透過一個文化館的管道你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記\n90546\t115840\t我想境外當然是第一個啦因為他們之前都來登記過一兩年都沒有下文這才是問題嘛主委您來的時候這個問題我也質詢過很多次重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試考試規則要明確內容要清楚審查標準要有一致也就是說我來考試我知道我考了幾分會及格我就會來考試嘛\n117401\t126217\t但是我連來考試我不知道我怎麼考怎麼努力可能都不會及格那我來考試幹嘛我現在的問題是您現在的標準\n127779\t148076\t八家通過好那二十幾家很多有問題沒有通過那目前為止這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎當然很清楚我們的登記辦法裡面一項一項我只看到一大堆要的文件但是好像沒有說你這一個文件缺了你就怎麼樣然後或者是說資本市足率要多少\n148917\t175669\t食臭資本要多少最低標準有公告嗎我們食臭資本是在專法裡面才會訂定所以專法還沒有登記制還是以洗房為基礎那接下來專法才是以機構管理強化專法裡面就會說清楚了會所以現在等於說你們也不希望人家現在就來登記不是就是說我們不同階段你聽懂我的意思嗎如果我們有為什麼不一次說清楚已經有人在登記了你又要等專法那是怎樣咧\n176849\t201097\t不是主委我的意思是如果你要考試有人在登記然後你又告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來那你現在登記什麼規不是 我們現在登記制也很清楚他可以來申請也都沒有問題對不對但不知道會不會過因為沒有標準審查的東西不是一個就是一個類似一個自動化進去就會出來我的意思是說如果有要登記就把他登記的規則說清楚\n203338\t229291\t我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記不會 不會 規則很清楚否則不會有人來申請這是第一 我希望如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的我希望全部的正當合法的業者都會希望來台灣做登記剛剛講得很好 那個正當合法是 我同意我們希望正當合法的現在是個透明化的政府沒有辦法就是說我們最後\n230471\t250407\t我沒有什麼意見 我只有說 規則公佈清楚不要像上次一樣 進來登記送了半天的件然後不知道為什麼沒有通過這才是大家會疑慮的第二個 我們希望業者來登記申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦願意來被你管的 盡量能夠被你管最好啦對我們來說 因為這樣的國人 他才找得到對象他想要被管 就請他好好的來登記\n256552\t280828\t對 沒有錯 那只要符合相關的條件我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管沒有錯 我們想法跟我一樣不要讓他在境外然後賺我們台灣人這麼多錢可是我們管不到他 這才奇怪嘛但是你就要符合我們的要求啊同意 所以標準 清楚 一致第二個部分是70%的境外業者占了台灣所有大概虛擬資產的我希望這個專法也希望能夠把他們\n285631\t300120\t納到台灣讓我們來好好的監管這才是 接下去我們應該要做的目的而且我們的專法裡面已經講好你是境外的Vespa就可以來申請是 我們是希望他來適用這個法規而不是用法規把他排在外面\n300540\t317814\t不會啦我想說只要符合我們規定我們其實沒有再區分這個接下來是只要它經過營運的話它將來就是定義說目前是虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的所以目前這營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎\n319804\t333611\t應該講說他不是金融機構但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管因為他將來草案裡面你也開放借貸也開放移轉這些相關保管這些業務其實有借貸的話就是類同銀行的\n334432\t348933\t確實委員講的沒有錯假設借貸商的部分接下來我們就看他的業務範圍到他比如說槓桿或是他今天比如說今天做如果他有到借貸他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任這也是為什麼這個開始就要資本氏族的規範\n349734\t373685\t是 所以我就說這個標準趕快訂出來對 我們執法已經在訂定中對業者來說他也要做好準備第二個對民眾來說他也知道說這家業者我去買有保障今天的問題是保障我們希望能夠登記就是希望你是一個好的業者你的相關的規定都符合規定然後我們的消費者有保障同意這是同一批的同一個邏輯\n374545\t404005\t所以接下來就是如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款然後又銷售虛擬資產又用虛擬資產來受信來借貸那其實他的管理就很重要萬一萬一萬一有像一些業者如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機或者是他運作有問題那現在這個專法還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣去保障之後消費者\n404765\t415636\t對 我想這裡面剛才提到就是說我們在會分級管理不同的業態我們上面有七種業態會根據不同的業態比如說保管商的風險跟比如說借貸商的風險是截然不同的對 這些都要把它訂清楚所以我之前有講過嘛比如說像我們看到\n424045\t448021\t美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備也就是說他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗那一樣的我認為啦這些業者他們現在如果真的狀況你現在的專法看起來只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託也好或者是自己做好相關的準備\n448621\t466655\t有沒有要求他們做其他的方式就像我們對現在很多我們當初開放電資電資是有基金的我們有信託所以我們就這樣未來也會比照這樣的方式來判你覺得信託就夠了沒有 我們會根據不同那是一個概念信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託\n468796\t485218\t沒有 只有法幣就是它的法幣先因為它主要是跟客戶的資產只有法幣我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況我的意思是說我認為類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了因為委員提醒很多次就有關當一個\n486980\t496529\t不會只有他放個信託就會沒事啦對 機構就會有個退場的問題所以我們的退場機制也是而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差也就是說他就算去信託了足夠的法幣可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了這種情況下怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益我認為在這個新的專法裡面可能主委要把\n511443\t529698\t他既然他可能有類同銀行的業務那我們就類同銀行的管理的思考但是又可能要維持他一定的所謂的自由度我同意要做一些相關的特別的處理但是一樣要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償能夠找得到人\n531900\t551457\t那當然因為如果是由金管會納管的話我想大家誠如剛剛委員講說大家還是希望由金管會來管理嘛大家比較有信心所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦因為之前的政企局也是蠻辛苦的因為這個東西沒人見過所以壓在他們這邊的確也是一份很大的負擔那既然\n551937\t572385\t既然要接手了我們就希望所有願意在台灣登記落地納管的業者希望他來遵循台灣的法令希望他能夠進來登記的時候我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的第二個我們不希望說他們還是繼續的在境外然後用跳過各種的方法否則我們就是有本事我們就把他們封鎖不要讓他們連到台灣的網路嗎\n574727\t602175\t不然他只要存在台灣人就去買然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況既然我們要管他願意來登記我們的規則清楚然後希望所有的人都在台灣落地這樣才能真正保障台灣的消費者也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作否則就像剛剛昆城委員說的刑事警察去找他們都找不到這種狀況如果你今天沒有納管會更嚴重啊\n603528\t629833\t那罅管的都可能有問題了不罅管的更找不到人啦規則清楚是我們應該做的啦所以我的意思是我們的法規清楚明確讓業者都能進來如果你不進來我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序我們會讓你們在台灣做不了生意你才有辦法好好管謝謝謝謝委員的建議謝謝好 謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請王世堅委員\n","txt":"主委早我想大家都非常關心的虛擬資產那接下來你們要送你們的專法過來那現在申請來做所謂的虛擬資產服務商的相關的登記那也經過你們公告目前是原來的20幾家現在只有9家通過對吧\n原來二十幾家剩八家那其中有一家是新申請OK所以是八家那二十五家只剩八家原因是什麼原因很多我想在過去這段時間來看各位看到有些是涉犯一些不法行為有些是因為我們的標準提高他無法無法符合所以一家新的不是原來的然後來申請那他是境外的還是國內的都是境內都是境內是的\n我們也查過相關的虛擬資產交易的事實國人大概70%是使用境外的業者所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記您覺得是什麼原因\n我想剛才那個也有委員提到就是台灣的滲透度相對是低這些低滲透度的人呢大部分現在因為我們過去沒有這樣的一個立法所以他必須透過一個境外的交易這也是為什麼說假設我們這個產業未來要發展我們要專法因為大部分的人我們需要他未來是透過一個文化館的管道你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記\n我想境外當然是第一個啦因為他們之前都來登記過一兩年都沒有下文這才是問題嘛主委您來的時候這個問題我也質詢過很多次重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試考試規則要明確內容要清楚審查標準要有一致也就是說我來考試我知道我考了幾分會及格我就會來考試嘛\n但是我連來考試我不知道我怎麼考怎麼努力可能都不會及格那我來考試幹嘛我現在的問題是您現在的標準\n八家通過好那二十幾家很多有問題沒有通過那目前為止這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎當然很清楚我們的登記辦法裡面一項一項我只看到一大堆要的文件但是好像沒有說你這一個文件缺了你就怎麼樣然後或者是說資本市足率要多少\n食臭資本要多少最低標準有公告嗎我們食臭資本是在專法裡面才會訂定所以專法還沒有登記制還是以洗房為基礎那接下來專法才是以機構管理強化專法裡面就會說清楚了會所以現在等於說你們也不希望人家現在就來登記不是就是說我們不同階段你聽懂我的意思嗎如果我們有為什麼不一次說清楚已經有人在登記了你又要等專法那是怎樣咧\n不是主委我的意思是如果你要考試有人在登記然後你又告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來那你現在登記什麼規不是 我們現在登記制也很清楚他可以來申請也都沒有問題對不對但不知道會不會過因為沒有標準審查的東西不是一個就是一個類似一個自動化進去就會出來我的意思是說如果有要登記就把他登記的規則說清楚\n我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記不會 不會 規則很清楚否則不會有人來申請這是第一 我希望如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的我希望全部的正當合法的業者都會希望來台灣做登記剛剛講得很好 那個正當合法是 我同意我們希望正當合法的現在是個透明化的政府沒有辦法就是說我們最後\n我沒有什麼意見 我只有說 規則公佈清楚不要像上次一樣 進來登記送了半天的件然後不知道為什麼沒有通過這才是大家會疑慮的第二個 我們希望業者來登記申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦願意來被你管的 盡量能夠被你管最好啦對我們來說 因為這樣的國人 他才找得到對象他想要被管 就請他好好的來登記\n對 沒有錯 那只要符合相關的條件我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管沒有錯 我們想法跟我一樣不要讓他在境外然後賺我們台灣人這麼多錢可是我們管不到他 這才奇怪嘛但是你就要符合我們的要求啊同意 所以標準 清楚 一致第二個部分是70%的境外業者占了台灣所有大概虛擬資產的我希望這個專法也希望能夠把他們\n納到台灣讓我們來好好的監管這才是 接下去我們應該要做的目的而且我們的專法裡面已經講好你是境外的Vespa就可以來申請是 我們是希望他來適用這個法規而不是用法規把他排在外面\n不會啦我想說只要符合我們規定我們其實沒有再區分這個接下來是只要它經過營運的話它將來就是定義說目前是虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的所以目前這營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎\n應該講說他不是金融機構但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管因為他將來草案裡面你也開放借貸也開放移轉這些相關保管這些業務其實有借貸的話就是類同銀行的\n確實委員講的沒有錯假設借貸商的部分接下來我們就看他的業務範圍到他比如說槓桿或是他今天比如說今天做如果他有到借貸他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任這也是為什麼這個開始就要資本氏族的規範\n是 所以我就說這個標準趕快訂出來對 我們執法已經在訂定中對業者來說他也要做好準備第二個對民眾來說他也知道說這家業者我去買有保障今天的問題是保障我們希望能夠登記就是希望你是一個好的業者你的相關的規定都符合規定然後我們的消費者有保障同意這是同一批的同一個邏輯\n所以接下來就是如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款然後又銷售虛擬資產又用虛擬資產來受信來借貸那其實他的管理就很重要萬一萬一萬一有像一些業者如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機或者是他運作有問題那現在這個專法還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣去保障之後消費者\n對 我想這裡面剛才提到就是說我們在會分級管理不同的業態我們上面有七種業態會根據不同的業態比如說保管商的風險跟比如說借貸商的風險是截然不同的對 這些都要把它訂清楚所以我之前有講過嘛比如說像我們看到\n美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備也就是說他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗那一樣的我認為啦這些業者他們現在如果真的狀況你現在的專法看起來只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託也好或者是自己做好相關的準備\n有沒有要求他們做其他的方式就像我們對現在很多我們當初開放電資電資是有基金的我們有信託所以我們就這樣未來也會比照這樣的方式來判你覺得信託就夠了沒有 我們會根據不同那是一個概念信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託\n沒有 只有法幣就是它的法幣先因為它主要是跟客戶的資產只有法幣我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況我的意思是說我認為類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了因為委員提醒很多次就有關當一個\n不會只有他放個信託就會沒事啦對 機構就會有個退場的問題所以我們的退場機制也是而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差也就是說他就算去信託了足夠的法幣可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了這種情況下怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益我認為在這個新的專法裡面可能主委要把\n他既然他可能有類同銀行的業務那我們就類同銀行的管理的思考但是又可能要維持他一定的所謂的自由度我同意要做一些相關的特別的處理但是一樣要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償能夠找得到人\n那當然因為如果是由金管會納管的話我想大家誠如剛剛委員講說大家還是希望由金管會來管理嘛大家比較有信心所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦因為之前的政企局也是蠻辛苦的因為這個東西沒人見過所以壓在他們這邊的確也是一份很大的負擔那既然\n既然要接手了我們就希望所有願意在台灣登記落地納管的業者希望他來遵循台灣的法令希望他能夠進來登記的時候我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的第二個我們不希望說他們還是繼續的在境外然後用跳過各種的方法否則我們就是有本事我們就把他們封鎖不要讓他們連到台灣的網路嗎\n不然他只要存在台灣人就去買然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況既然我們要管他願意來登記我們的規則清楚然後希望所有的人都在台灣落地這樣才能真正保障台灣的消費者也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作否則就像剛剛昆城委員說的刑事警察去找他們都找不到這種狀況如果你今天沒有納管會更嚴重啊\n那罅管的都可能有問題了不罅管的更找不到人啦規則清楚是我們應該做的啦所以我的意思是我們的法規清楚明確讓業者都能進來如果你不進來我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序我們會讓你們在台灣做不了生意你才有辦法好好管謝謝謝謝委員的建議謝謝好 謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請王世堅委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.430\n主委早我想大家都非常關心的虛擬資產那接下來你們要送你們的專法過來那現在申請來做所謂的虛擬資產服務商的相關的登記那也經過你們公告目前是原來的20幾家現在只有9家通過對吧\n\n00:24.821 --> 00:51.192\n原來二十幾家剩八家那其中有一家是新申請OK所以是八家那二十五家只剩八家原因是什麼原因很多我想在過去這段時間來看各位看到有些是涉犯一些不法行為有些是因為我們的標準提高他無法無法符合所以一家新的不是原來的然後來申請那他是境外的還是國內的都是境內都是境內是的\n\n00:52.873 --> 01:06.931\n我們也查過相關的虛擬資產交易的事實國人大概70%是使用境外的業者所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記您覺得是什麼原因\n\n01:07.532 --> 01:28.669\n我想剛才那個也有委員提到就是台灣的滲透度相對是低這些低滲透度的人呢大部分現在因為我們過去沒有這樣的一個立法所以他必須透過一個境外的交易這也是為什麼說假設我們這個產業未來要發展我們要專法因為大部分的人我們需要他未來是透過一個文化館的管道你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記\n\n01:30.546 --> 01:55.840\n我想境外當然是第一個啦因為他們之前都來登記過一兩年都沒有下文這才是問題嘛主委您來的時候這個問題我也質詢過很多次重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試考試規則要明確內容要清楚審查標準要有一致也就是說我來考試我知道我考了幾分會及格我就會來考試嘛\n\n01:57.401 --> 02:06.217\n但是我連來考試我不知道我怎麼考怎麼努力可能都不會及格那我來考試幹嘛我現在的問題是您現在的標準\n\n02:07.779 --> 02:28.076\n八家通過好那二十幾家很多有問題沒有通過那目前為止這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎當然很清楚我們的登記辦法裡面一項一項我只看到一大堆要的文件但是好像沒有說你這一個文件缺了你就怎麼樣然後或者是說資本市足率要多少\n\n02:28.917 --> 02:55.669\n食臭資本要多少最低標準有公告嗎我們食臭資本是在專法裡面才會訂定所以專法還沒有登記制還是以洗房為基礎那接下來專法才是以機構管理強化專法裡面就會說清楚了會所以現在等於說你們也不希望人家現在就來登記不是就是說我們不同階段你聽懂我的意思嗎如果我們有為什麼不一次說清楚已經有人在登記了你又要等專法那是怎樣咧\n\n02:56.849 --> 03:21.097\n不是主委我的意思是如果你要考試有人在登記然後你又告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來那你現在登記什麼規不是我們現在登記制也很清楚他可以來申請也都沒有問題對不對但不知道會不會過因為沒有標準審查的東西不是一個就是一個類似一個自動化進去就會出來我的意思是說如果有要登記就把他登記的規則說清楚\n\n03:23.338 --> 03:49.291\n我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記不會不會規則很清楚否則不會有人來申請這是第一我希望如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的我希望全部的正當合法的業者都會希望來台灣做登記剛剛講得很好那個正當合法是我同意我們希望正當合法的現在是個透明化的政府沒有辦法就是說我們最後\n\n03:50.471 --> 04:10.407\n我沒有什麼意見我只有說規則公佈清楚不要像上次一樣進來登記送了半天的件然後不知道為什麼沒有通過這才是大家會疑慮的第二個我們希望業者來登記申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦願意來被你管的盡量能夠被你管最好啦對我們來說因為這樣的國人他才找得到對象他想要被管就請他好好的來登記\n\n04:16.552 --> 04:40.828\n對沒有錯那只要符合相關的條件我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管沒有錯我們想法跟我一樣不要讓他在境外然後賺我們台灣人這麼多錢可是我們管不到他這才奇怪嘛但是你就要符合我們的要求啊同意所以標準清楚一致第二個部分是70%的境外業者占了台灣所有大概虛擬資產的我希望這個專法也希望能夠把他們\n\n04:45.631 --> 05:00.120\n納到台灣讓我們來好好的監管這才是接下去我們應該要做的目的而且我們的專法裡面已經講好你是境外的Vespa就可以來申請是我們是希望他來適用這個法規而不是用法規把他排在外面\n\n05:00.540 --> 05:17.814\n不會啦我想說只要符合我們規定我們其實沒有再區分這個接下來是只要它經過營運的話它將來就是定義說目前是虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的所以目前這營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎\n\n05:19.804 --> 05:33.611\n應該講說他不是金融機構但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管因為他將來草案裡面你也開放借貸也開放移轉這些相關保管這些業務其實有借貸的話就是類同銀行的\n\n05:34.432 --> 05:48.933\n確實委員講的沒有錯假設借貸商的部分接下來我們就看他的業務範圍到他比如說槓桿或是他今天比如說今天做如果他有到借貸他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任這也是為什麼這個開始就要資本氏族的規範\n\n05:49.734 --> 06:13.685\n是所以我就說這個標準趕快訂出來對我們執法已經在訂定中對業者來說他也要做好準備第二個對民眾來說他也知道說這家業者我去買有保障今天的問題是保障我們希望能夠登記就是希望你是一個好的業者你的相關的規定都符合規定然後我們的消費者有保障同意這是同一批的同一個邏輯\n\n06:14.545 --> 06:44.005\n所以接下來就是如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款然後又銷售虛擬資產又用虛擬資產來受信來借貸那其實他的管理就很重要萬一萬一萬一有像一些業者如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機或者是他運作有問題那現在這個專法還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣去保障之後消費者\n\n06:44.765 --> 06:55.636\n對我想這裡面剛才提到就是說我們在會分級管理不同的業態我們上面有七種業態會根據不同的業態比如說保管商的風險跟比如說借貸商的風險是截然不同的對這些都要把它訂清楚所以我之前有講過嘛比如說像我們看到\n\n07:04.045 --> 07:28.021\n美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備也就是說他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗那一樣的我認為啦這些業者他們現在如果真的狀況你現在的專法看起來只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託也好或者是自己做好相關的準備\n\n07:28.621 --> 07:46.655\n有沒有要求他們做其他的方式就像我們對現在很多我們當初開放電資電資是有基金的我們有信託所以我們就這樣未來也會比照這樣的方式來判你覺得信託就夠了沒有我們會根據不同那是一個概念信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託\n\n07:48.796 --> 08:05.218\n沒有只有法幣就是它的法幣先因為它主要是跟客戶的資產只有法幣我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況我的意思是說我認為類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了因為委員提醒很多次就有關當一個\n\n08:06.980 --> 08:16.529\n不會只有他放個信託就會沒事啦對機構就會有個退場的問題所以我們的退場機制也是而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差也就是說他就算去信託了足夠的法幣可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了這種情況下怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益我認為在這個新的專法裡面可能主委要把\n\n08:31.443 --> 08:49.698\n他既然他可能有類同銀行的業務那我們就類同銀行的管理的思考但是又可能要維持他一定的所謂的自由度我同意要做一些相關的特別的處理但是一樣要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償能夠找得到人\n\n08:51.900 --> 09:11.457\n那當然因為如果是由金管會納管的話我想大家誠如剛剛委員講說大家還是希望由金管會來管理嘛大家比較有信心所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦因為之前的政企局也是蠻辛苦的因為這個東西沒人見過所以壓在他們這邊的確也是一份很大的負擔那既然\n\n09:11.937 --> 09:32.385\n既然要接手了我們就希望所有願意在台灣登記落地納管的業者希望他來遵循台灣的法令希望他能夠進來登記的時候我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的第二個我們不希望說他們還是繼續的在境外然後用跳過各種的方法否則我們就是有本事我們就把他們封鎖不要讓他們連到台灣的網路嗎\n\n09:34.727 --> 10:02.175\n不然他只要存在台灣人就去買然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況既然我們要管他願意來登記我們的規則清楚然後希望所有的人都在台灣落地這樣才能真正保障台灣的消費者也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作否則就像剛剛昆城委員說的刑事警察去找他們都找不到這種狀況如果你今天沒有納管會更嚴重啊\n\n10:03.528 --> 10:29.833\n那罅管的都可能有問題了不罅管的更找不到人啦規則清楚是我們應該做的啦所以我的意思是我們的法規清楚明確讓業者都能進來如果你不進來我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序我們會讓你們在台灣做不了生意你才有辦法好好管謝謝謝謝委員的建議謝謝好謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請王世堅委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.43,"text":"主委早我想大家都非常關心的虛擬資產那接下來你們要送你們的專法過來那現在申請來做所謂的虛擬資產服務商的相關的登記那也經過你們公告目前是原來的20幾家現在只有9家通過對吧"},{"start":24.821,"end":51.192,"text":"原來二十幾家剩八家那其中有一家是新申請OK所以是八家那二十五家只剩八家原因是什麼原因很多我想在過去這段時間來看各位看到有些是涉犯一些不法行為有些是因為我們的標準提高他無法無法符合所以一家新的不是原來的然後來申請那他是境外的還是國內的都是境內都是境內是的"},{"start":52.873,"end":66.931,"text":"我們也查過相關的虛擬資產交易的事實國人大概70%是使用境外的業者所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記您覺得是什麼原因"},{"start":67.532,"end":88.669,"text":"我想剛才那個也有委員提到就是台灣的滲透度相對是低這些低滲透度的人呢大部分現在因為我們過去沒有這樣的一個立法所以他必須透過一個境外的交易這也是為什麼說假設我們這個產業未來要發展我們要專法因為大部分的人我們需要他未來是透過一個文化館的管道你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記"},{"start":90.546,"end":115.84,"text":"我想境外當然是第一個啦因為他們之前都來登記過一兩年都沒有下文這才是問題嘛主委您來的時候這個問題我也質詢過很多次重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試考試規則要明確內容要清楚審查標準要有一致也就是說我來考試我知道我考了幾分會及格我就會來考試嘛"},{"start":117.401,"end":126.217,"text":"但是我連來考試我不知道我怎麼考怎麼努力可能都不會及格那我來考試幹嘛我現在的問題是您現在的標準"},{"start":127.779,"end":148.076,"text":"八家通過好那二十幾家很多有問題沒有通過那目前為止這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎當然很清楚我們的登記辦法裡面一項一項我只看到一大堆要的文件但是好像沒有說你這一個文件缺了你就怎麼樣然後或者是說資本市足率要多少"},{"start":148.917,"end":175.669,"text":"食臭資本要多少最低標準有公告嗎我們食臭資本是在專法裡面才會訂定所以專法還沒有登記制還是以洗房為基礎那接下來專法才是以機構管理強化專法裡面就會說清楚了會所以現在等於說你們也不希望人家現在就來登記不是就是說我們不同階段你聽懂我的意思嗎如果我們有為什麼不一次說清楚已經有人在登記了你又要等專法那是怎樣咧"},{"start":176.849,"end":201.097,"text":"不是主委我的意思是如果你要考試有人在登記然後你又告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來那你現在登記什麼規不是 我們現在登記制也很清楚他可以來申請也都沒有問題對不對但不知道會不會過因為沒有標準審查的東西不是一個就是一個類似一個自動化進去就會出來我的意思是說如果有要登記就把他登記的規則說清楚"},{"start":203.338,"end":229.291,"text":"我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記不會 不會 規則很清楚否則不會有人來申請這是第一 我希望如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的我希望全部的正當合法的業者都會希望來台灣做登記剛剛講得很好 那個正當合法是 我同意我們希望正當合法的現在是個透明化的政府沒有辦法就是說我們最後"},{"start":230.471,"end":250.407,"text":"我沒有什麼意見 我只有說 規則公佈清楚不要像上次一樣 進來登記送了半天的件然後不知道為什麼沒有通過這才是大家會疑慮的第二個 我們希望業者來登記申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦願意來被你管的 盡量能夠被你管最好啦對我們來說 因為這樣的國人 他才找得到對象他想要被管 就請他好好的來登記"},{"start":256.552,"end":280.828,"text":"對 沒有錯 那只要符合相關的條件我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管沒有錯 我們想法跟我一樣不要讓他在境外然後賺我們台灣人這麼多錢可是我們管不到他 這才奇怪嘛但是你就要符合我們的要求啊同意 所以標準 清楚 一致第二個部分是70%的境外業者占了台灣所有大概虛擬資產的我希望這個專法也希望能夠把他們"},{"start":285.631,"end":300.12,"text":"納到台灣讓我們來好好的監管這才是 接下去我們應該要做的目的而且我們的專法裡面已經講好你是境外的Vespa就可以來申請是 我們是希望他來適用這個法規而不是用法規把他排在外面"},{"start":300.54,"end":317.814,"text":"不會啦我想說只要符合我們規定我們其實沒有再區分這個接下來是只要它經過營運的話它將來就是定義說目前是虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的所以目前這營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎"},{"start":319.804,"end":333.611,"text":"應該講說他不是金融機構但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管因為他將來草案裡面你也開放借貸也開放移轉這些相關保管這些業務其實有借貸的話就是類同銀行的"},{"start":334.432,"end":348.933,"text":"確實委員講的沒有錯假設借貸商的部分接下來我們就看他的業務範圍到他比如說槓桿或是他今天比如說今天做如果他有到借貸他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任這也是為什麼這個開始就要資本氏族的規範"},{"start":349.734,"end":373.685,"text":"是 所以我就說這個標準趕快訂出來對 我們執法已經在訂定中對業者來說他也要做好準備第二個對民眾來說他也知道說這家業者我去買有保障今天的問題是保障我們希望能夠登記就是希望你是一個好的業者你的相關的規定都符合規定然後我們的消費者有保障同意這是同一批的同一個邏輯"},{"start":374.545,"end":404.005,"text":"所以接下來就是如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款然後又銷售虛擬資產又用虛擬資產來受信來借貸那其實他的管理就很重要萬一萬一萬一有像一些業者如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機或者是他運作有問題那現在這個專法還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣去保障之後消費者"},{"start":404.765,"end":415.636,"text":"對 我想這裡面剛才提到就是說我們在會分級管理不同的業態我們上面有七種業態會根據不同的業態比如說保管商的風險跟比如說借貸商的風險是截然不同的對 這些都要把它訂清楚所以我之前有講過嘛比如說像我們看到"},{"start":424.045,"end":448.021,"text":"美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備也就是說他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗那一樣的我認為啦這些業者他們現在如果真的狀況你現在的專法看起來只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託也好或者是自己做好相關的準備"},{"start":448.621,"end":466.655,"text":"有沒有要求他們做其他的方式就像我們對現在很多我們當初開放電資電資是有基金的我們有信託所以我們就這樣未來也會比照這樣的方式來判你覺得信託就夠了沒有 我們會根據不同那是一個概念信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託"},{"start":468.796,"end":485.218,"text":"沒有 只有法幣就是它的法幣先因為它主要是跟客戶的資產只有法幣我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況我的意思是說我認為類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了因為委員提醒很多次就有關當一個"},{"start":486.98,"end":496.529,"text":"不會只有他放個信託就會沒事啦對 機構就會有個退場的問題所以我們的退場機制也是而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差也就是說他就算去信託了足夠的法幣可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了這種情況下怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益我認為在這個新的專法裡面可能主委要把"},{"start":511.443,"end":529.698,"text":"他既然他可能有類同銀行的業務那我們就類同銀行的管理的思考但是又可能要維持他一定的所謂的自由度我同意要做一些相關的特別的處理但是一樣要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償能夠找得到人"},{"start":531.9,"end":551.457,"text":"那當然因為如果是由金管會納管的話我想大家誠如剛剛委員講說大家還是希望由金管會來管理嘛大家比較有信心所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦因為之前的政企局也是蠻辛苦的因為這個東西沒人見過所以壓在他們這邊的確也是一份很大的負擔那既然"},{"start":551.937,"end":572.385,"text":"既然要接手了我們就希望所有願意在台灣登記落地納管的業者希望他來遵循台灣的法令希望他能夠進來登記的時候我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的第二個我們不希望說他們還是繼續的在境外然後用跳過各種的方法否則我們就是有本事我們就把他們封鎖不要讓他們連到台灣的網路嗎"},{"start":574.727,"end":602.175,"text":"不然他只要存在台灣人就去買然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況既然我們要管他願意來登記我們的規則清楚然後希望所有的人都在台灣落地這樣才能真正保障台灣的消費者也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作否則就像剛剛昆城委員說的刑事警察去找他們都找不到這種狀況如果你今天沒有納管會更嚴重啊"},{"start":603.528,"end":629.833,"text":"那罅管的都可能有問題了不罅管的更找不到人啦規則清楚是我們應該做的啦所以我的意思是我們的法規清楚明確讓業者都能進來如果你不進來我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序我們會讓你們在台灣做不了生意你才有辦法好好管謝謝謝謝委員的建議謝謝好 謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請王世堅委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時50分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席（李委員坤城）：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委早。我想大家都非常關心的虛擬資產，接下來你們要送你們的專法過來，現在申請來做所謂虛擬資產服務商的相關登記，也經過你們公告，目前是原來的二十幾家，現在只有九家通過，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：原來二十幾家剩八家，其中有一家是新申請的。"],["黃委員珊珊：OK，所以是八家，二十五家只剩八家，原因是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：原因很多，我想在過去這段時間來看，有些是涉犯一些不法行為，有些是因為我們的標準提高，它無法符合，有些是不願意申請……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這一家新的並不是原來的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後來申請，請問它是境外的還是國內的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：都是境內。"],["黃委員珊珊：都是境內？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們也查過相關虛擬資產交易的事實，國人大概70%是使用境外的業者，所以境外的業者到現在沒有來做相關的申請登記，您覺得是什麼原因？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛才也有委員提到，就是臺灣的滲透度相對是低，這些低滲透度的人，大概大部分現在……因為我們過去沒有這樣的立法，所以他必須透過一個境外的交易……"],["黃委員珊珊：他搞不清楚要怎麼來做處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是為什麼說，假設我們這個產業未來要發展，需要有專法，因為大部分的人，我們希望他未來是透過我們納管的管道……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我現在只問你，你覺得境外的人為什麼不來登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想境外當然是第一個，我們判斷……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為他們之前都來登記過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，它有很多其他的因素……"],["黃委員珊珊：一、兩年都沒有下文，這才是問題嘛。主委，您來的時候，這個問題我也質詢過很多次，重點是你今天要舉辦一個考試，考試規則要明確。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們現在就是要把它明確化。"],["黃委員珊珊：內容要清楚，審查標準要一致，也就是說，我來考試，我知道我考了幾分會及格，我就會來考試嘛。但是我來考試，我不知道要怎麼考，或怎麼努力可能都不會及格，那我來考試幹嘛？我現在的問題是，光您現在的標準，有八家通過，好，那二十幾家很多有問題，沒有通過，目前為止，這些標準都很清楚的公告了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然很清楚啊，我們的登記辦法裡面，一項一項的跟……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只看到一大堆要的文件，但是好像沒有說這一個文件缺了你就會怎麼樣，或者是說資本適足率要多少、實收資本額要多少，請問最低標準有公告嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：實收資本額是在專法裡面才會訂定，因為我剛才講這個登記制……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以專法還沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：登記制還是以洗防為基礎，接下來專法才是以機構管理強化。"],["黃委員珊珊：專法裡面就會說清楚了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：會。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在等於說，你們也不希望人家現在就來登記，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，就是說我們不同階段，剛剛委員講過，如果這是一個我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們不同階段……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果我們有，為什麼不一次說清楚？已經有人在登記了，你又要等專法，那是怎樣呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，委員這個……我知道你很關心這個問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我的意思是，如果你要考試，有人在登記，然後你告訴我說要等到專法才能夠寫出來，那你現在登記什麼鬼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在登記制也很清楚，它可以來申請，也都沒有問題，對不對？"],["黃委員珊珊：但不知道會不會過，因為沒有標準。"],["彭主任委員金隆：審查的東西不是一個類似自動化進去就會出來，這中間有很多內容。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是說，如果有要登記，就把登記的規則說清楚，我們不希望看到的是金管會不希望人家來登記啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會、不會，規則很清楚，否則不會有人來申請，而且也通過了。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望，第一，如果我們的規則是公平跟清楚的，我希望全部正當合法的業者都會希望來臺灣做登記。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員剛剛講得很好，那個正當合法啦，我想這一次……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我同意，我們希望正當合法的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是個透明化的政府，沒有辦法就是說，我們最後否準不同意，一定有理由……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有什麼意見，我只有說規則公布清楚，不要像上次一樣，進來登記的，送了半天的文件，然後不知道為什麼沒有通過，這才是大家會疑慮的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實不會不知道……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，我們希望業者來登記……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想申請的當事人應該都很清楚知道啦，不會……"],["黃委員珊珊：願意來被你管的，儘量能夠被你管是最好的，對我們來說，因為這樣國人才找得到對象。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：他想要被管，就請他好好的來登記，只要符合相關的條件，我覺得我們的態度應該是你就是來給我管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有錯，我們的想法跟委員一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：而不要讓他在境外，然後賺我們臺灣人這麼多錢，可是我們管不到他，這才奇怪嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是他就要符合我們的要求啊。"],["黃委員珊珊：同意，所以標準清楚、一致。","第二個部分是臺灣虛擬資產使用者有70%使用境外業者平台，我希望透過這個專法能夠把他們也納到臺灣，讓我們來好好的監管，這才是接下來我們應該要做的目的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，而且我們的專法裡面已經有規定，你是境外的VASP就可以來申請。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們是希望它來適用這個法規，而不是用法規把它排除在外面。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會啦，我想只要符合我們的規定，我們其實沒有在區分這個。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！接下來是只要它經過營運的話，將來就是定義……目前虛擬資產是用於支付或投資的目的嘛，所以目前這個營運方式其實是有點類似銀行的狀況嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該講說它不是金融機構，但是我們會類似用金融機構的模式來監管VASP。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為將來草案裡面，你有開放借貸，也開放移轉及相關保管等業務，其實如果有借貸的話，就是類同於銀行的業務了嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實委員講得沒有錯，對於借貸商的部分，接下來，我們就看他的業務範圍到……比如說槓桿或是比如說他今天做多少的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他有到借貸，他可能就必須對消費者有一定的責任。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是為什麼這個開始就要有資本適足的規範。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我就說嘛，這個標準趕快訂出來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們的子法已經在訂定中。"],["黃委員珊珊：對業者來說，他也要做好準備。第二個，對民眾來說，他們也會知道這家業者我去買有保障，今天的問題是保障，我們希望能夠登記，就是希望你是一個好的業者，你都符合相關的規定，我們的消費者才會有保障。"],["彭主任委員金隆：同意啊。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是同一批的同一個邏輯，所以接下來，如果他是已經到收受虛擬資產存款，然後又銷售虛擬資產，又用虛擬資產來授信、來借貸，其實他的管理就很重要，萬一像一些業者，如果他自己發生了所謂的財務危機，或者是他運作有問題，現在這個專法，還沒有通過的專法裡面有怎麼樣的規定去保障之後的消費者？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這裡面剛剛提到，就是我們會分級管理，針對不同的業態，我們上面有七種業態，會根據不同的業態……"],["黃委員珊珊：保管的、借貸的、交易的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說，保管商的風險跟借貸商的風險是截然不同的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這些都要把它訂清楚，我之前也有講過嘛，比如說，我們看到美國總統川普把比特幣變成國家的戰備儲備，也就是說，他其實就是在因應將來可能發生問題的時候，還有一個什麼東西可以來抵抗。一樣的，我認為這些業者，他們現在如果真的有狀況……你現在的專法看起來，只是叫他們自己要做好相關的信託，或者是做好相關的準備，有沒有要求他們做其他的方式？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該不止，就像我們對現在很多電……當初我們開放電支，它的……"],["黃委員珊珊：電支是有基金的呀。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們有信託，所以我們就是這樣，未來也會比照這樣的方式來管理。"],["黃委員珊珊：你覺得信託就夠了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們會根據不同的……那是一個概念，這個錢……"],["黃委員珊珊：信託目前是法幣信託還是虛幣信託？沒有啊，只有法幣吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分它的法幣特性，因為它主要是跟客戶的資產……"],["黃委員珊珊：也只有法幣嘛，我們現在也沒有虛幣可以信託的狀況，我的意思是說，我認為啦，類似存保的機制可能現在就要開始考慮了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實委員提醒很多次了，有關當一個機構……"],["黃委員珊珊：不會只有它放個信託就會沒事啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，機構就會有一個退場的問題，所以我們的退場機制也是會規定在裡面。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且將來虛幣的價值可能跟法幣會有很大的落差，也就是說，它就算去信託了足夠的法幣，可是到虛幣那個價值可能已經差了十萬八千里了，這種情況下，怎麼樣去確保消費者的權益？我認為在這個新的專法裡面，可能主委要把它……既然它可能有類同銀行的業務，那我們就採取類同銀行管理的思考，但是又可能要維持它一定的所謂的自由度，我同意要做一些相關的、特別的處理，但是一樣，要考慮的是消費者將來能夠求償、能夠找得到人啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，如果是由金管會納管的話，我想大家……誠如剛剛委員講說，大家還是希望由金管會來管理，大家會比較有信心。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我希望金管會就是認真的管理啦，因為之前的證期局也是滿辛苦的，因為這個東西沒人見過，所以壓在他們這邊，的確也是一份很大的負擔。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員的體諒。"],["黃委員珊珊：既然要接手了，我們就希望所有願意在臺灣登記落地納管的業者都可以來遵循臺灣的法令，希望他們進來登記的時候，我們的遊戲規則是一清二楚的。第二個，我們不希望他們還是繼續地在境外，然後跳過各種的方法，否則我們有本事就把他們封鎖，不要讓他們連到臺灣的網路，不然他們只要存在，臺灣人就會去買，然後永遠就變成是像原來一樣沒管的狀況，既然我們要管，他們願意來登記，我們的規則清楚，然後希望所有的人都在臺灣落地，這樣才能真正保障臺灣的消費者，也真正能夠確保這個市場是正常運作的，否則就像剛剛坤城委員說的，刑事警察局去找他們都找不到，如果你今天沒有納管，這種狀況只會更嚴重，連納管的都可能有問題了，不納管的更找不到人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：規則清楚是我們應該做的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是，我們的法規清楚、明確，讓業者都能進來，如果他們不進來，我們有我們的處罰或相關的程序，我們會讓他們在臺灣做不了生意，這樣你才有辦法好好管，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接下來請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}}