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00:00:47,459\n高德斯坦他在美國時代雜誌上的投書他指出近期中東惡霧戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點那在這個\n\n4\n00:00:50,803 --> 00:00:59,454\n風暴的核心他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接等於是直接指責然後賴總統是魯莽的領導人當然這個可能在國內也有非常多不同意這樣子的一個\n\n5\n00:01:07,583 --> 00:01:30,031\n說法可是因為我們從今年五月開始不到半年的時間已經有非常多的像國際的重要的期刊也好智庫報告也好或者很多的學者其實都有做這樣的示警要求華府應該要約束現在賴政府有很多可能的作為或者像一些談話那部長怎麼看\n\n6\n00:01:34,146 --> 00:01:43,894\n報告委員個別的學者專家或者投書我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見\n\n7\n00:01:54,102 --> 00:02:03,305\n我們政府對政府之間的關係那至於說多元的意見那也有不同的反應啦針對這些有一些是基於擔心希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了\n\n8\n00:02:17,386 --> 00:02:31,432\n因為其實是我們把他強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在他已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管旗開也好說法也好可是我們現在因為他一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的\n\n9\n00:02:39,216 --> 00:02:55,262\n格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是\n\n10\n00:02:55,842 --> 00:02:58,244\n可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎\n\n11\n00:03:26,038 --> 00:03:30,519\n一個當然委員提到確實我們怎麼就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估應處的時候至於說個案我是不予評論我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些\n\n12\n00:03:48,484 --> 00:03:56,399\n投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意\n\n13\n00:03:57,168 --> 00:04:18,007\n所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是\n\n14\n00:04:20,189 --> 00:04:24,032\n哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的\n\n15\n00:04:44,165 --> 00:05:02,807\n這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟那個日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣\n\n16\n00:05:04,469 --> 00:05:07,650\n然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦\n\n17\n00:05:31,758 --> 00:05:41,326\n所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了\n\n18\n00:06:01,441 --> 00:06:11,887\n這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的\n\n19\n00:06:14,753 --> 00:06:31,833\n對報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經\n\n20\n00:06:34,516 --> 00:06:54,346\n談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告\n\n21\n00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,261\n我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的一個結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經\n\n22\n00:07:13,269 --> 00:07:16,854\n是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個\n\n23\n00:07:29,149 --> 00:07:33,332\n比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰\n\n24\n00:07:46,121 --> 00:07:50,444\n你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整啦因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是\n\n25\n00:08:14,197 --> 00:08:22,966\n適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量\n\n26\n00:08:31,954 --> 00:08:49,770\n可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為\n\n27\n00:08:56,616 --> 00:09:02,639\n或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公布出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄\n\n28\n00:09:23,630 --> 00:09:27,153\n現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的\n\n29\n00:09:39,824 --> 00:09:43,129\n那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊\n\n30\n00:09:56,207 --> 00:10:16,303\n那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟60多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟60多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這60幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈\n\n31\n00:10:19,932 --> 00:10:34,409\n我們內部都有針對不同國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法輔助條例或當地是不是有法律因為是不是兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因\n\n32\n00:10:35,470 --> 00:11:00,839\n去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過\n\n33\n00:11:01,707 --> 00:11:10,832\n像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布\n\n34\n00:11:27,820 --> 00:11:42,041\n經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然\n\n35\n00:11:43,222 --> 00:11:59,373\n在疫情上面要做我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警\n\n36\n00:12:03,295 --> 00:12:14,781\n有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為\n\n37\n00:12:32,291 --> 00:12:37,477\n應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n369\t16702\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長林教宏部長喂好\n17717\t32884\t部長早安 部長今天剛剛也有委員關切到就是說我們最近看到非常多包括美國智庫國防優先亞洲事務主任他也是比較屬於保守派的學者\n34305\t47459\t高德斯坦他在美國時代雜誌上的投書他指出近期中東惡霧戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點那在這個\n50803\t59454\t風暴的核心他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接等於是直接指責然後賴總統是魯莽的領導人當然這個可能在國內也有非常多不同意這樣子的一個\n67583\t90031\t說法可是因為我們從今年五月開始不到半年的時間已經有非常多的像國際的重要的期刊也好智庫報告也好或者很多的學者其實都有做這樣的示警要求華府應該要約束現在賴政府有很多可能的作為或者像一些談話那部長怎麼看\n94146\t103894\t報告委員 個別的學者專家或者投書我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見\n114102\t123305\t我們政府對政府之間的關係那至於說多元的意見那也有不同的反應啦針對這些有一些是基於擔心希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了\n137386\t151432\t因為其實是我們把他強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在他已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管旗開也好說法也好可是我們現在因為他一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的\n159216\t175262\t格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是\n175842\t178244\t可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎\n206038\t210519\t一個 當然委員提到確實我們怎麼就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估應處的時候至於說個案我是不予評論我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些\n228484\t236399\t投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意\n237168\t258007\t所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是\n260189\t264032\t哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的\n284165\t302807\t這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟那個日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣\n304469\t307650\t然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦\n331758\t341326\t所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了\n361441\t371887\t這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的\n374753\t391833\t對 報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經\n394516\t414346\t談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告\n415640\t417261\t我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的一個結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經\n433269\t436854\t是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個\n449149\t453332\t比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰\n466121\t470444\t你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整啦因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是\n494197\t502966\t適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量\n511954\t529770\t可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為\n536616\t542639\t或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公布出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄\n563630\t567153\t現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張 有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的\n579824\t583129\t那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊\n596207\t616303\t那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟60多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟60多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這60幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈\n619932\t634409\t我們內部都有針對不同國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法輔助條例或當地是不是有法律因為是不是兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因\n635470\t660839\t去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過\n661707\t670832\t像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布\n687820\t702041\t經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然\n703222\t719373\t在疫情上面要做我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警\n723295\t734781\t有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為\n752291\t757477\t應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長林教宏部長喂好\n部長早安 部長今天剛剛也有委員關切到就是說我們最近看到非常多包括美國智庫國防優先亞洲事務主任他也是比較屬於保守派的學者\n高德斯坦他在美國時代雜誌上的投書他指出近期中東惡霧戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點那在這個\n風暴的核心他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接等於是直接指責然後賴總統是魯莽的領導人當然這個可能在國內也有非常多不同意這樣子的一個\n說法可是因為我們從今年五月開始不到半年的時間已經有非常多的像國際的重要的期刊也好智庫報告也好或者很多的學者其實都有做這樣的示警要求華府應該要約束現在賴政府有很多可能的作為或者像一些談話那部長怎麼看\n報告委員 個別的學者專家或者投書我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見\n我們政府對政府之間的關係那至於說多元的意見那也有不同的反應啦針對這些有一些是基於擔心希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了\n因為其實是我們把他強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在他已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管旗開也好說法也好可是我們現在因為他一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的\n格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是\n可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎\n一個 當然委員提到確實我們怎麼就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估應處的時候至於說個案我是不予評論我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些\n投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意\n所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是\n哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的\n這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟那個日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣\n然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦\n所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了\n這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的\n對 報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經\n談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告\n我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的一個結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經\n是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個\n比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰\n你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整啦因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是\n適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量\n可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為\n或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公布出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄\n現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張 有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的\n那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊\n那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟60多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟60多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這60幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈\n我們內部都有針對不同國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法輔助條例或當地是不是有法律因為是不是兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因\n去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過\n像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布\n經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然\n在疫情上面要做我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警\n有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為\n應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.369 --> 00:16.702\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長林教宏部長喂好\n\n00:17.717 --> 00:32.884\n部長早安部長今天剛剛也有委員關切到就是說我們最近看到非常多包括美國智庫國防優先亞洲事務主任他也是比較屬於保守派的學者\n\n00:34.305 --> 00:47.459\n高德斯坦他在美國時代雜誌上的投書他指出近期中東惡霧戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點那在這個\n\n00:50.803 --> 00:59.454\n風暴的核心他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接等於是直接指責然後賴總統是魯莽的領導人當然這個可能在國內也有非常多不同意這樣子的一個\n\n01:07.583 --> 01:30.031\n說法可是因為我們從今年五月開始不到半年的時間已經有非常多的像國際的重要的期刊也好智庫報告也好或者很多的學者其實都有做這樣的示警要求華府應該要約束現在賴政府有很多可能的作為或者像一些談話那部長怎麼看\n\n01:34.146 --> 01:43.894\n報告委員個別的學者專家或者投書我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見\n\n01:54.102 --> 02:03.305\n我們政府對政府之間的關係那至於說多元的意見那也有不同的反應啦針對這些有一些是基於擔心希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了\n\n02:17.386 --> 02:31.432\n因為其實是我們把他強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在他已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管旗開也好說法也好可是我們現在因為他一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的\n\n02:39.216 --> 02:55.262\n格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是\n\n02:55.842 --> 02:58.244\n可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎\n\n03:26.038 --> 03:30.519\n一個當然委員提到確實我們怎麼就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估應處的時候至於說個案我是不予評論我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些\n\n03:48.484 --> 03:56.399\n投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意\n\n03:57.168 --> 04:18.007\n所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是\n\n04:20.189 --> 04:24.032\n哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的\n\n04:44.165 --> 05:02.807\n這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟那個日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣\n\n05:04.469 --> 05:07.650\n然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦\n\n05:31.758 --> 05:41.326\n所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了\n\n06:01.441 --> 06:11.887\n這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的\n\n06:14.753 --> 06:31.833\n對報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經\n\n06:34.516 --> 06:54.346\n談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告\n\n06:55.640 --> 06:57.261\n我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的一個結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經\n\n07:13.269 --> 07:16.854\n是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個\n\n07:29.149 --> 07:33.332\n比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰\n\n07:46.121 --> 07:50.444\n你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整啦因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是\n\n08:14.197 --> 08:22.966\n適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量\n\n08:31.954 --> 08:49.770\n可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為\n\n08:56.616 --> 09:02.639\n或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公布出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄\n\n09:23.630 --> 09:27.153\n現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的\n\n09:39.824 --> 09:43.129\n那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊\n\n09:56.207 --> 10:16.303\n那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟60多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟60多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這60幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈\n\n10:19.932 --> 10:34.409\n我們內部都有針對不同國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法輔助條例或當地是不是有法律因為是不是兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因\n\n10:35.470 --> 11:00.839\n去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過\n\n11:01.707 --> 11:10.832\n像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布\n\n11:27.820 --> 11:42.041\n經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然\n\n11:43.222 --> 11:59.373\n在疫情上面要做我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警\n\n12:03.295 --> 12:14.781\n有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為\n\n12:32.291 --> 12:37.477\n應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.369,"end":16.702,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長林教宏部長喂好"},{"start":17.717,"end":32.884,"text":"部長早安 部長今天剛剛也有委員關切到就是說我們最近看到非常多包括美國智庫國防優先亞洲事務主任他也是比較屬於保守派的學者"},{"start":34.305,"end":47.459,"text":"高德斯坦他在美國時代雜誌上的投書他指出近期中東惡霧戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點那在這個"},{"start":50.803,"end":59.454,"text":"風暴的核心他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接等於是直接指責然後賴總統是魯莽的領導人當然這個可能在國內也有非常多不同意這樣子的一個"},{"start":67.583,"end":90.031,"text":"說法可是因為我們從今年五月開始不到半年的時間已經有非常多的像國際的重要的期刊也好智庫報告也好或者很多的學者其實都有做這樣的示警要求華府應該要約束現在賴政府有很多可能的作為或者像一些談話那部長怎麼看"},{"start":94.146,"end":103.894,"text":"報告委員 個別的學者專家或者投書我們當然都要尊重也要注意可是我們也觀察到確實有一股想要引導甚至是影響這個美國輿論跟對台政策那我們知道什麼是主流的意見"},{"start":114.102,"end":123.305,"text":"我們政府對政府之間的關係那至於說多元的意見那也有不同的反應啦針對這些有一些是基於擔心希望能夠提醒有一些背後比較有大的財團在支持系統性的去支持智庫去發表對他意識形態有利的主張我們也注意到了"},{"start":137.386,"end":151.432,"text":"因為其實是我們把他強化了我剛剛提到就是說從5月開始到現在他已經有很多這樣類似的一個發表的不管旗開也好說法也好可是我們現在因為他一出來的時候其實我們的國安會的秘書長他首先跳出來而且講得非常大聲然後以他的"},{"start":159.216,"end":175.262,"text":"格局或者以他的代表性事實上這個不應該由他講他出來反嗆因為所有在國際上面雖然可能剛剛我們提到的這個時代的這一篇他不是最主流的在美國可能也不是"},{"start":175.842,"end":178.244,"text":"可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法那由我們國安會的秘書長他直接跳出來對嗆這是恰當的嗎因為他也是外交體系出身他也曾經擔任過外交部長像直接這樣出來嗆這樣是適當的嗎你如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音沒有辦法對各種情勢去做研析跟判斷或者不能接納我們不能接受的這樣的一個狀態那對我們是有利的嗎"},{"start":206.038,"end":210.519,"text":"一個 當然委員提到確實我們怎麼就事論事是一回事怎麼樣不要幫他放大聲量這也是當然也在評估應處的時候至於說個案我是不予評論我講的是說整體上確實有一些背後的比較不同的或是說有一些"},{"start":228.484,"end":236.399,"text":"投書或者被放大是有一些帶風的力量那我們當然也要非常的注意"},{"start":237.168,"end":258.007,"text":"所以就這些因為身為外交部我們在面對國際我們現在在講民主價值已經沒有意義了因為顯然川普政府就是川普總統他自己個人也不在乎所謂的民主價值因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民雖然沒有動到一兵一卒可是他整個對所有不管是"},{"start":260.189,"end":264.032,"text":"哪一個國家包括非常友好的盟國其實他也不手軟雖然他會比較好一點所以就這個部分我想我們沒有必要自己在欺騙自己因為我們一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石或者說我們跟他有多好多好或者我們理念相近的國家民主這些我覺得提在這裡其實已經不符合我們務實的"},{"start":284.165,"end":302.807,"text":"這些外交的困境不是外交而已我們整體現在面對因為我們看到現在包括川普總統昨天跟那個日本首相他們也談定了然後其實也非常友好今天初步看到跟韓國其實也談定了他們大概都是15%都是一樣"},{"start":304.469,"end":307.65,"text":"然後可是我們看到我們付出的其實事實上比日本多得多為什麼我們一直說我們美國對我們非常重視然後我們也是他不可或缺的可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來他們除了大概的一個方向已經談定以後他們的關稅甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦"},{"start":331.758,"end":341.326,"text":"所以這個對我們來說其實我們在到底還缺了什麼這個部分外交部有沒有掌握因為從我們台積電赴美設廠然後投資美國天然氣還有採購長約降低美車關稅增加對美農產品的採購還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施加大投資美方產業提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上而且還要加大對美軍事採購我們做了"},{"start":361.441,"end":371.887,"text":"這麼多這麼多可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果就外交部的身為外交部的部長就這個部分你們會怎麼看接下來會是我們的"},{"start":374.753,"end":391.833,"text":"對 報告委員因為我們的談判團隊有一個方案也跟美方在實質內容上討論到也接近要總結至於說時機我想就是淳如委員所講的一個國家一個國家已經"},{"start":394.516,"end":414.346,"text":"談定了之後就是台灣當然也就會變成下一波很優先要來達致這個就是談判的這個就是這個方案要變成一個共識包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告"},{"start":415.64,"end":417.261,"text":"我剛剛提到我們付出這麼多以後今天川習會會有一個初步的一個結果我們不曉得他們會談到什麼台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況可是可見其實我們在這個部分除了我剛剛講的我們付出的那個已經"},{"start":433.269,"end":436.854,"text":"是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下這個是我們現在還是非常不能接受的這些條件可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉我們希望在傳習會結束以後我們還有一個"},{"start":449.149,"end":453.332,"text":"比較具體的一個結果到時候再做一個比較實際的討論可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒的不要一直把美國放得非常大看得非常把美國認為說他對我們非常重要因為這個也是認知戰"},{"start":466.121,"end":470.444,"text":"你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦其實對我們完全不利我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾去跟美方去做更多的要求我覺得這個是我們的立場這個部分應該要做一些調整啦因為日本跟韓國在剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候他們馬上回來他說國內不能接受他們也不能接受他們是"},{"start":494.197,"end":502.966,"text":"適時的去做表達我們台灣不是所以這個部分我們還是特別提醒那另外就是做長臂管轄的這個部分因為其實現在看到中方其實他提出這個部分當然對政治人物他們有他們政治的考量"},{"start":511.954,"end":529.77,"text":"可是就這個部分我們在很多面對這樣的問題比如說前一陣子發生在德國就是我們有國人去旅行的時候因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距我不知道他差距多大可是他就是被留置了三四個小時那對這樣子的一個狀況來說其實我們能夠有什麼樣的一個有效的作為"},{"start":536.616,"end":542.639,"text":"或者我們能夠做什麼我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員或者像軍情局或者正戰的一個新戰大隊的這些相關的軍方的人員不管他是真是假可是他被公布出來對於這樣子的一個長臂管轄"},{"start":563.63,"end":567.153,"text":"現在可能影響到政治人物的時候大家開始緊張 有點緊張因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的他說長臂管轄這只是來嚇嚇大家可是現在大家會比較慎重是認為他可能玩真的"},{"start":579.824,"end":583.129,"text":"那就這個部分我們可以有什麼樣的作為比如說像我們對這些軍方的人員因為他就是來服役啊我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的一個保障這60幾個國家因為我們可能他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去啊"},{"start":596.207,"end":616.303,"text":"那可能如果說外交部今天的報告上面說中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯跟60多個國家簽訂形式司法互助的條約然後也跟60多個國家完成簽署引渡條約也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審那就這些部分這60幾個國家我們有沒有掌握有那會不會適時的公佈"},{"start":619.932,"end":634.409,"text":"我們內部都有針對不同國家他可能因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條例司法輔助條例或當地是不是有法律因為是不是兩國都有這樣的刑法規定以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因"},{"start":635.47,"end":660.839,"text":"去所謂的引渡這種樣態我們做了分析那標準作業程序怎麼做我們的外管那當然一方面宣導以外我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商避免發生意外如果發生的時候因為還是不能排除如果中共用了某一個國家想要立威作為要案例要來恐嚇大家這個情形我們都想過"},{"start":661.707,"end":670.832,"text":"像之前的詐騙犯其實他們最怕就直接被引渡回中國嘛那現在我們現在講的那六十幾個國家你們會不會適時的公布因為這對當事人來說他們可能可以比較有防範啊他不能等到你說以後真的發生了你要想辦法去營救很難所以我們現在說你如果你想預防的話你要怎麼預防這六十幾個國家會不會適時的公布"},{"start":687.82,"end":702.041,"text":"經過我們跟他協商之後如果他也回應說他們不會依據所謂中共那一套那他們也是必須守法的時候我們當然也要考量到公佈到什麼程度如果他本身就是要配合中國那我們當然"},{"start":703.222,"end":719.373,"text":"在疫情上面要做我們比較擔心的他不會的沒關係像美國就不會嘛像日本可能也不會我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的你要讓大家知道哪一些國家可能會我們跟當地國政府有在交涉他們如果回應是正面我們當然也會考量避免過度反應但是我們一定要示警"},{"start":723.295,"end":734.781,"text":"有這種危險的時候我們一定是要先示警因為我們不希望等到發生的時候你再去因為也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為就我說你像發生在德國或是美國其實也常常大概對有一些他有疑慮的時候他的檢查翻箱整個那種不尊重的做法其實也是都有所以我們希望說這個部分其實讓大家有一點防範或者應該有的一個積極的作為"},{"start":752.291,"end":757.477,"text":"應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談這個部分我們希望可以有效的做好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時8分）謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長，早安。剛剛也有委員關切我們最近看到美國智庫「國防優先」亞洲事務主任高德斯坦，他是比較屬於保守派的學者，他在美國時代雜誌上投書指出，近期中東、俄烏戰爭吸引國際社會太多的眼光，可是忽略了台灣才是世界最危險的引爆點。在這個風暴的核心，他也指出賴總統可能是造成直接……等於是直接指責賴總統是魯莽的領導人，當然這個在國內可能也有非常多不同意的說法，可是因為我們從今年5月開始，不到半年的時間，已經有非常多像國際重要的期刊也好、智庫報告也好，或者很多學者其實都有做這樣的示警，要求華府應該要約束賴政府現在很多可能的作為，或者像一些談話，那部長怎麼看？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，個別的學者專家或者投書，我們當然都要尊重，也要注意，可是我們也觀察到，確實有一股想要引導，甚至去影響美國輿論跟對台政策。我們知道什麼是主流的意見，什麼是我們政府對政府之間的關係，至於多元的意見，針對這些也有不同的反映，有一些是基於擔心，希望能夠提醒，有一些背後比較有大的財團在系統性的支持智庫，去發表對他意識形態有利的主張，我們也注意到了。"],["馬委員文君：因為其實是我們把它強化了，我剛剛提到的就是說，從5月開始到現在，已經有很多類似這樣的發表，不管期刊也好，說法也好，可是我們現在……因為它一出來的時候，其實我們國安會的秘書長首先跳出來，而且講得非常大聲。以他的格局或者以他的代表性，事實上這個不應該由他講，他出來反嗆，因為所有在國際上面……雖然剛剛我們提到在時代的這一篇，它不是最主流的，在美國可能也不是，可是畢竟是大家各自不同的看法，那由我們國安會的秘書長直接跳出來對嗆，這是恰當的嗎？因為他也是外交體系出身，他也曾經擔任過外交部長，直接這樣出來嗆，這樣是適當的嗎？如果說沒有辦法容納各種聲音，沒有辦法對各種情勢去研析跟判斷，或者不能接納我們不能接受的狀態，那對我們是有利的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：當然委員提到的……確實我們就事論事是一回事，那怎麼樣在應處的時候不要幫它放大聲量，這個當然也在評估。至於個案，我不予評論，我講的是整體上確實有一些背後比較不同的，或是說有一些投書被放大，是有一些帶風的力量，那我們當然也要非常地注意。"],["馬委員文君：所以就這些，身為外交部，我們在面對國際，現在講民主價值已經沒有意義了，因為顯然川普政府、川普總統也不在乎所謂的民主價值，因為他現在在全世界發起的幾乎是經濟殖民，雖然沒有動到一兵一卒，可是不管對哪一個國家，包括非常友好的盟國其實也不手軟，雖然會比較好一點。所以就這個部分，我想我們沒有必要自己再欺騙自己，一直說我們跟美國堅若磐石，或者說我們跟他有多好多好，或者我們是理念相近的民主國家，這些我覺得其實已經不符合我們務實的面對外交困境。","不只是外交而已，我們整體現在面對……因為我們看到川普總統昨天跟日本首相談定了，然後也非常地友好，今天初步看到跟韓國也談定了，他們大概都是15%，都是一樣。可是我們付出的事實上比日本多得多。我們一直說美國對我們非常重視，也是他不可或缺的，可是在我們付出的比日本跟韓國顯然更多的情況之下因為韓國剛剛也透露出來，他們的關稅除了大概的方向已經談定，甚至美國還同意幫他造核動力潛艦，所以這個對我們來說，我們到底還缺了什麼？這個部分外交部有沒有掌握？因為從台積電赴美設廠，然後投資美國天然氣，還有採購長約、降低美車關稅、增加對美農產品的採購，還有限制大陸產品洗產地的措施、加大投資美方產業、提高國防GDP已經達到至少3.32%以上，而且還要加大對美軍事採購，我們做了這麼多、這麼多，可是我們好像都還看不到所有的成果，你身為外交部的部長，就這個部分你會怎麼看？接下來會是我們了啊！"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，我們的談判團隊有一個方案，也跟美方在實質內容上討論到接近總結，至於說時機，我想就是誠如委員所講的，一個國家、一個國家已經談定了，之後台灣當然就會變成下一波很優先要來達成談判的……就是這個方案要變成一個共識，包括備忘錄或者是一個總結的報告。"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛提到，我們付出這麼多以後，今天川習會會有一個初步的結果，我們不曉得他們會談到什麼，台灣是不是有被納入去談到什麼樣的一個狀況，可見其實我們在這個部分，除了我剛剛講的，我們付出的那個是已經快要掏空台灣的狀況底下，這也是我們現在還是非常不能接受的條件，可是顯然我們好像沒有太多的力量去扭轉。希望在川習會結束以後，我們還有一個比較具體的結果，到時候再做一個比較實際的討論。可是我們在這裡其實是要提醒，不要一直把美國放得非常大，把美國認為對我們非常重要，因為這個也是認知戰，你對全體國人一直這樣子的一個觀念跟洗腦，其實對我們完全不利，我們沒有辦法有更大的力量去談判，也沒有更大的力量去做政府的後盾，去跟美方做更多的要求，我覺得這個是我們的立場，這個部分應該要做一些調整，因為日本跟韓國剛開始沒有辦法談成的時候，他們馬上回來，還說國內不能接受，他們也不能接受，他們是適時地表達，而我們台灣不是，所以這個部分，我們還是特別提醒。","另外是長臂管轄的部分，其實現在看到中方提出這個部分，當然政治人物有政治考量，可是就這個部分，我們在面對這樣的問題，比如說前一陣子發生在德國，就是我們有國人去旅行的時候，因為護照跟本人的照片可能有點差距，我不知道他差距多大，可是他就是被留置了三、四個小時，對於這樣子的狀況來說，我們能夠有什麼樣有效的作為？或者我們能夠做什麼？我特別舉德國是因為現在不管是對政治人物也好，或者像之前有公布我們有一些資通電軍的這些網路人員，或者像軍情局，或者政戰的心戰大隊相關軍方人員，不管他是真是假，可是他被公布出來，對於這樣子的長臂管轄，現在可能影響到政治人物的時候，大家開始有點緊張，因為過去陸委會一直告訴我們說那是假的，他說長臂管轄這個只是來嚇嚇大家，可是現在大家會比較慎重，認為他可能玩真的。就這個部分，我們可以有什麼樣的作為？比如像我們對這些軍方的人員，因為他就是來服役，我們國家沒有辦法給他很好的保障，這六十幾個國家……因為他們可能不會直接到中國大陸去，如果外交部今天的報告上面說，中國大陸已經跟俄羅斯等六十多個國家簽訂刑事司法互助條約，然後也跟六十多個國家完成簽署引渡條約，也不排除中國會施壓引渡我國人到中國受審，那就這些部分，這六十幾個國家我們有沒有掌握？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["馬委員文君：那會不會適時的公布？"],["林部長佳龍：我們內部都有針對不同國家，因為涉及到跟中國是不是簽了引渡條約、司法互助條約，或當地是不是有法律，因為這必須兩國都有這樣的刑法規定，以及涉及到是不是用政治犯以外的原因去做所謂的引渡，這種樣態我們都做了分析。標準作業程序怎麼做，我們的外館除了一方面宣導以外，我們也跟當地國還有其他國家進行協商，避免發生意外。如果發生的時候，因為還是不能排除中共用某一個國家想要立威作為案例，要來恐嚇大家，這個情形我們都想過。"],["馬委員文君：像之前的詐騙犯，他們最怕的就是直接被引渡回中國，你們會不會適時地公布我們現在講的那六十幾個國家？因為這樣對當事人來說，他們可能比較可以加以防範，否則等到以後真的發生了，你要想辦法去營救會很難，所以我們現在問如果你想預防的話，你要怎麼預防？會不會適時地公布這六十幾個國家？"],["林部長佳龍：好，我跟委員報告，經過我們跟他們協商之後，如果他們也回應說他們不會依據中共的那一套、他們也必須守法的時候，我們當然也要考量公布到什麼程度，但是如果他們本身就是要配合中國，我們當然要做預警。"],["馬委員文君：對，我們有比較擔心的國家，如果是不會的國家就沒關係，像美國就不會嘛！像日本可能也不會，我說的是大家比較擔心的是會的國家，你要讓大家知道哪些國家可能會，那這樣的風險是不是……"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟當地國政府有在交涉，他們的回應如果是正面的，我們當然也會考量，避免過度反應……"],["馬委員文君：會適時地公布嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定要示警，在有這種危險的時候，我們一定要先示警。"],["馬委員文君：我們不希望你等到發生以後再去處理，現在也聽不出來我們可以有什麼樣的作為，像之前發生在德國，其實美國也常常這樣，當他有一些疑慮的時候，他就整個翻箱檢查，也都有那種非常不尊重的作法，所以我們希望這個部分要讓大家有一點防範或要有一些積極的作為，應該要把它做出來而不是只是空談，對這個部分我們希望可以有有效的作法，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":262,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-10","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","林楚茵","馬文君","賴士葆","范雲","邱志偉","陳永康","林憶君","黃捷","黃仁","牛煦庭"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請外交部、經濟部、大陸委員會報告「我國參與2025年度『亞太經濟合作（APEC）經濟領\n袖會議』的任務及目標」，並備質詢；二、邀請國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會、法務部、法\n務部調查局報告「中共對台進行長臂管轄、跨境鎮壓及我國相關應處」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00010"}}}