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\"end\": 827.54, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 827.54, \"end\": 827.62, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 827.62, \"end\": 827.78, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 827.78, \"end\": 827.88, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 827.88, \"end\": 828.02, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"折\", \"start\": 828.02, \"end\": 828.06, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"扣\", \"start\": 828.06, \"end\": 828.08, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 828.821, \"end\": 852.322, \"text\": \"並不是都是要中央才能夠申請到中央補助可預算最多的是精神病友的多元社區生活方案原本都是中央全額的那在經預算用完之後呢有地方政府卻用這個是非法訂設服預算來拒絕編列明年的預算來甩鍋中央讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞部長你知道這件事嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 828.821, \"end\": 828.901, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 828.901, \"end\": 829.221, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 829.221, \"end\": 829.381, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 829.381, \"end\": 829.461, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"振\", \"start\": 910.099, \"end\": 910.28, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"旭\", \"start\": 910.28, \"end\": 910.481, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 910.481, \"end\": 910.622, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 910.622, \"end\": 910.642, \"score\": 0.016}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,392 --> 00:00:08,920\n主席麻煩那個數位發展部的數位產業署的林組長\n\n2\n00:00:20,812 --> 00:00:36,884\n委員好主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了\n\n3\n00:00:39,546 --> 00:01:00,794\n商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎\n\n4\n00:01:06,997 --> 00:01:33,828\n問經濟部也不是他農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎謝謝委員其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議\n\n5\n00:01:35,929 --> 00:02:03,212\n當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能郭組長交流完如果沒有後續我們看下一頁\n\n6\n00:02:04,573 --> 00:02:28,687\n而且要判斷到底有沒有用為什麼因為你們說你們要去做一些阻斷的時候常常就會說我們如果直接在電商的那個平台上去做個實驗就知道在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入台灣的新聞後包括蝦皮已經淘寶都說我早在2019年的時候就已經應政府的政策有關規定宣稱已經嚴辦\n\n7\n00:02:31,269 --> 00:02:49,871\n可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以假官建制\n\n8\n00:02:50,932 --> 00:03:09,465\n風味圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境跨商\n\n9\n00:03:10,285 --> 00:03:35,403\n电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊\n\n10\n00:03:37,289 --> 00:03:55,577\n大家跟委員報告一下其實落地這件事情來講當然當然指的有一些公司當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們\n\n11\n00:03:56,477 --> 00:04:14,165\n那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對\n\n12\n00:04:14,865 --> 00:04:42,654\n那如果說今天他沒有落地的話我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落地我會跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下\n\n13\n00:04:44,015 --> 00:05:04,429\n這就是我想問的你的各店商平台的組合跟措施真的有到位嗎甚至你有沒有主動去稽查因為你先講境外就是有落地的都一樣如果沒有主動的話你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任\n\n14\n00:05:06,224 --> 00:05:28,998\n謝謝委員其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌、傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字\n\n15\n00:05:29,458 --> 00:05:39,202\n像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達\n\n16\n00:05:44,784 --> 00:06:09,770\n马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗\n\n17\n00:06:11,091 --> 00:06:31,773\n猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带那这个是不是也是违反平台规定\n\n18\n00:06:34,224 --> 00:06:47,536\n第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的\n\n19\n00:06:48,317 --> 00:07:04,809\n那個字號用假的別人合格的得到合格證的就我去拿別人的因為平台事實上是用城市串接來跟NCC跟經濟部比對所以平台並沒有進行所謂的審核跟或比對的原始文件真偽\n\n20\n00:07:06,030 --> 00:07:22,157\n所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎\n\n21\n00:07:22,557 --> 00:07:45,331\n那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面\n\n22\n00:07:45,891 --> 00:07:59,086\n跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長\n\n23\n00:08:01,228 --> 00:08:17,217\n我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院\n\n24\n00:08:18,477 --> 00:08:35,234\n訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果他用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理\n\n25\n00:08:37,850 --> 00:08:51,315\n这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来去年他讲他讲说玩针针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器\n\n26\n00:08:52,931 --> 00:09:15,169\n但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊對它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎\n\n27\n00:09:17,099 --> 00:09:40,185\n因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦他的这个就是针筒\n\n28\n00:09:42,017 --> 00:09:58,609\n就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒\n\n29\n00:09:59,934 --> 00:10:20,902\n跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材等級很遠\n\n30\n00:10:23,363 --> 00:10:45,416\n所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性\n\n31\n00:10:45,836 --> 00:11:07,097\n跟委員說明他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀手術刀這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管嘛所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是根據他的用途來歸類他該用什麼管因為醫療器材它有它的功能性跟它的安全性規格會比較高\n\n32\n00:11:07,637 --> 00:11:27,977\n那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是\n\n33\n00:11:30,464 --> 00:11:51,285\n我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷打在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是\n\n34\n00:11:52,406 --> 00:12:18,648\n那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情资其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联防互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫好那夏宜我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗\n\n35\n00:12:20,658 --> 00:12:42,257\n大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福\n\n36\n00:12:43,158 --> 00:13:04,978\n部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響\n\n37\n00:13:05,638 --> 00:13:22,120\n跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助\n\n38\n00:13:23,962 --> 00:13:48,080\n改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣\n\n39\n00:13:48,821 --> 00:14:12,322\n並不是都是要中央才能夠申請到中央補助可預算最多的是精神病友的多元社區生活方案原本都是中央全額的那在經預算用完之後呢有地方政府卻用這個是非法訂設服預算來拒絕編列明年的預算來甩鍋中央讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞部長你知道這件事嗎\n\n40\n00:14:12,982 --> 00:14:39,925\n有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方\n\n41\n00:14:40,305 --> 00:15:07,440\n因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法院依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請\n\n42\n00:15:09,858 --> 00:15:10,642\n王振旭委員來發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5392\t8920\t主席麻煩那個數位發展部的數位產業署的林組長\n20812\t36884\t委員好 主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了\n39546\t60794\t商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎\n66997\t93828\t問經濟部也不是他 農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎謝謝委員 其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多 委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議\n95929\t123212\t當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能 郭組長交流完如果沒有後續我們看下一頁\n124573\t148687\t而且要判斷到底有沒有用為什麼因為你們說你們要去做一些阻斷的時候常常就會說我們如果直接在電商的那個平台上去做個實驗就知道在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入台灣的新聞後包括蝦皮已經淘寶都說我早在2019年的時候就已經應政府的政策有關規定宣稱已經嚴辦\n151269\t169871\t可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以假官建制\n170932\t189465\t風味 圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境 跨商\n190285\t215403\t电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊\n217289\t235577\t大家跟委員報告一下其實落地這件事情來講當然當然指的有一些公司當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們\n236477\t254165\t那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對\n254865\t282654\t那如果說今天他沒有落地的話我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落地我會跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下\n284015\t304429\t這就是我想問的 你的各店商平台的組合跟措施真的有到位嗎甚至你有沒有主動去稽查因為你先講境外 就是有落地的都一樣如果沒有主動的話 你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任\n306224\t328998\t謝謝委員其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌、傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字\n329458\t339202\t像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達\n344784\t369770\t马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗\n371091\t391773\t猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带那这个是不是也是违反平台规定\n394224\t407536\t第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的\n408317\t424809\t那個字號用假的別人合格的得到合格證的就我去拿別人的因為平台事實上是用城市串接來跟NCC跟經濟部比對所以平台並沒有進行所謂的審核跟或比對的原始文件真偽\n426030\t442157\t所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎\n442557\t465331\t那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面\n465891\t479086\t跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長\n481228\t497217\t我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院\n498477\t515234\t訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果他用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理\n517850\t531315\t这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来去年他讲他讲说玩针针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器\n532931\t555169\t但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊對 它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎\n557099\t580185\t因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦他的这个就是针筒\n582017\t598609\t就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒\n599934\t620902\t跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材等級很遠\n623363\t645416\t所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性\n645836\t667097\t跟委員說明 他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀 手術刀 這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管嘛所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是根據他的用途來歸類 他該用什麼管因為醫療器材 它有它的功能性跟它的安全性 規格會比較高\n667637\t687977\t那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是\n690464\t711285\t我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷打在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是\n712406\t738648\t那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情资其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联防互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫好那夏宜我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗\n740658\t762257\t大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福\n763158\t784978\t部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響\n785638\t802120\t跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助\n803962\t828080\t改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣\n828821\t852322\t並不是都是要中央才能夠申請到中央補助可預算最多的是精神病友的多元社區生活方案原本都是中央全額的那在經預算用完之後呢有地方政府卻用這個是非法訂設服預算來拒絕編列明年的預算來甩鍋中央讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞部長你知道這件事嗎\n852982\t879925\t有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方\n880305\t907440\t因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法院依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請\n909858\t910642\t王振旭委員來發言\n","txt":"主席麻煩那個數位發展部的數位產業署的林組長\n委員好 主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了\n商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎\n問經濟部也不是他 農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎謝謝委員 其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多 委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議\n當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能 郭組長交流完如果沒有後續我們看下一頁\n而且要判斷到底有沒有用為什麼因為你們說你們要去做一些阻斷的時候常常就會說我們如果直接在電商的那個平台上去做個實驗就知道在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入台灣的新聞後包括蝦皮已經淘寶都說我早在2019年的時候就已經應政府的政策有關規定宣稱已經嚴辦\n可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以假官建制\n風味 圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境 跨商\n电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊\n大家跟委員報告一下其實落地這件事情來講當然當然指的有一些公司當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們\n那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對\n那如果說今天他沒有落地的話我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落地我會跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下\n這就是我想問的 你的各店商平台的組合跟措施真的有到位嗎甚至你有沒有主動去稽查因為你先講境外 就是有落地的都一樣如果沒有主動的話 你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任\n謝謝委員其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌、傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字\n像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達\n马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗\n猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带那这个是不是也是违反平台规定\n第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的\n那個字號用假的別人合格的得到合格證的就我去拿別人的因為平台事實上是用城市串接來跟NCC跟經濟部比對所以平台並沒有進行所謂的審核跟或比對的原始文件真偽\n所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎\n那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面\n跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長\n我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院\n訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果他用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理\n这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来去年他讲他讲说玩针针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器\n但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊對 它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎\n因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦他的这个就是针筒\n就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒\n跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材等級很遠\n所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性\n跟委員說明 他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀 手術刀 這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管嘛所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是根據他的用途來歸類 他該用什麼管因為醫療器材 它有它的功能性跟它的安全性 規格會比較高\n那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是\n我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷打在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是\n那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情资其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联防互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫好那夏宜我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗\n大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福\n部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響\n跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助\n改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣\n並不是都是要中央才能夠申請到中央補助可預算最多的是精神病友的多元社區生活方案原本都是中央全額的那在經預算用完之後呢有地方政府卻用這個是非法訂設服預算來拒絕編列明年的預算來甩鍋中央讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞部長你知道這件事嗎\n有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方\n因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法院依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請\n王振旭委員來發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.392 --> 00:08.920\n主席麻煩那個數位發展部的數位產業署的林組長\n\n00:20.812 --> 00:36.884\n委員好主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了\n\n00:39.546 --> 01:00.794\n商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎\n\n01:06.997 --> 01:33.828\n問經濟部也不是他農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎謝謝委員其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議\n\n01:35.929 --> 02:03.212\n當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能郭組長交流完如果沒有後續我們看下一頁\n\n02:04.573 --> 02:28.687\n而且要判斷到底有沒有用為什麼因為你們說你們要去做一些阻斷的時候常常就會說我們如果直接在電商的那個平台上去做個實驗就知道在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入台灣的新聞後包括蝦皮已經淘寶都說我早在2019年的時候就已經應政府的政策有關規定宣稱已經嚴辦\n\n02:31.269 --> 02:49.871\n可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以假官建制\n\n02:50.932 --> 03:09.465\n風味圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境跨商\n\n03:10.285 --> 03:35.403\n电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊\n\n03:37.289 --> 03:55.577\n大家跟委員報告一下其實落地這件事情來講當然當然指的有一些公司當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們\n\n03:56.477 --> 04:14.165\n那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對\n\n04:14.865 --> 04:42.654\n那如果說今天他沒有落地的話我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落地我會跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下\n\n04:44.015 --> 05:04.429\n這就是我想問的你的各店商平台的組合跟措施真的有到位嗎甚至你有沒有主動去稽查因為你先講境外就是有落地的都一樣如果沒有主動的話你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任\n\n05:06.224 --> 05:28.998\n謝謝委員其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌、傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字\n\n05:29.458 --> 05:39.202\n像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達\n\n05:44.784 --> 06:09.770\n马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗\n\n06:11.091 --> 06:31.773\n猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带那这个是不是也是违反平台规定\n\n06:34.224 --> 06:47.536\n第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的\n\n06:48.317 --> 07:04.809\n那個字號用假的別人合格的得到合格證的就我去拿別人的因為平台事實上是用城市串接來跟NCC跟經濟部比對所以平台並沒有進行所謂的審核跟或比對的原始文件真偽\n\n07:06.030 --> 07:22.157\n所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎\n\n07:22.557 --> 07:45.331\n那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面\n\n07:45.891 --> 07:59.086\n跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長\n\n08:01.228 --> 08:17.217\n我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院\n\n08:18.477 --> 08:35.234\n訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果他用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理\n\n08:37.850 --> 08:51.315\n这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来去年他讲他讲说玩针针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器\n\n08:52.931 --> 09:15.169\n但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊對它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎\n\n09:17.099 --> 09:40.185\n因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦他的这个就是针筒\n\n09:42.017 --> 09:58.609\n就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒\n\n09:59.934 --> 10:20.902\n跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材等級很遠\n\n10:23.363 --> 10:45.416\n所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性\n\n10:45.836 --> 11:07.097\n跟委員說明他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀手術刀這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管嘛所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是根據他的用途來歸類他該用什麼管因為醫療器材它有它的功能性跟它的安全性規格會比較高\n\n11:07.637 --> 11:27.977\n那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是\n\n11:30.464 --> 11:51.285\n我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷打在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是\n\n11:52.406 --> 12:18.648\n那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情资其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联防互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫好那夏宜我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗\n\n12:20.658 --> 12:42.257\n大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福\n\n12:43.158 --> 13:04.978\n部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響\n\n13:05.638 --> 13:22.120\n跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助\n\n13:23.962 --> 13:48.080\n改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣\n\n13:48.821 --> 14:12.322\n並不是都是要中央才能夠申請到中央補助可預算最多的是精神病友的多元社區生活方案原本都是中央全額的那在經預算用完之後呢有地方政府卻用這個是非法訂設服預算來拒絕編列明年的預算來甩鍋中央讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞部長你知道這件事嗎\n\n14:12.982 --> 14:39.925\n有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方\n\n14:40.305 --> 15:07.440\n因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法院依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請\n\n15:09.858 --> 15:10.642\n王振旭委員來發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.392,"end":8.92,"text":"主席麻煩那個數位發展部的數位產業署的林組長"},{"start":20.812,"end":36.884,"text":"委員好 主長早在跨境電商一事有發現小包裝的豬肉流入食品流入到台灣的話可能就會成為防疫破口其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了"},{"start":39.546,"end":60.794,"text":"商品不同可是遇到豬肉問題當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理那遇到玩具呢我們就問經濟部怎麼處理遇到玩具真桶呢我們就問衛福部說怎麼處理最後都找不到人處理因為為什麼因為在平台上啊所以蘇大部我想問是說那現在以這種所謂各機關全責處理因為7月14號有開會會說要虛實對應可是有解決了嗎"},{"start":66.997,"end":93.828,"text":"問經濟部也不是他 農業部也不是他然後呢衛福部也不是他可是就在平台上啊所以對跨境平台的監管有用嗎謝謝委員 其實我也知道委員其實都一直在關注這些問題其實當然平台上面的問題是非常多 委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法但是我覺得我們速發部必須要起來去搭起這樣子的平台的溝通會議"},{"start":95.929,"end":123.212,"text":"當然有些機制必須要去梳理那當然我們過去大概過去也有跟委員交流其實我們過去有開了幾次的會有針對像那個以前像電子菸還有像那個過去內政部的穿雲劍還有偉茂的車牌還有一些依託彌子這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見大家來做交流當然這聯席的過程中還是可能 郭組長交流完如果沒有後續我們看下一頁"},{"start":124.573,"end":148.687,"text":"而且要判斷到底有沒有用為什麼因為你們說你們要去做一些阻斷的時候常常就會說我們如果直接在電商的那個平台上去做個實驗就知道在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入台灣的新聞後包括蝦皮已經淘寶都說我早在2019年的時候就已經應政府的政策有關規定宣稱已經嚴辦"},{"start":151.269,"end":169.871,"text":"可是我必须严正的来指正就是含肉制品的肉干肉松宠物食品泡面风味这些都能够轻易透过平台来进入到台湾而且部分卖家甚至以假官建制"},{"start":170.932,"end":189.465,"text":"風味 圖示等方法來做規避檢驗因為那個關鍵字我不要講槍嘛那我講說玩具什麼實彈讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的這個風險繞過邊境就這次整個跨境 跨商"},{"start":190.285,"end":215.403,"text":"电商平台的那个监管制度的一个漏洞所以速发部知道吗目前有什么应对的方式何时改善因为左院长已经说经济部速发部要要求平台呢限期落地因为过去你们上次落地管落地管境外不管那如果不配合纳管的话速发部就要要求平台下架因为如果境外的话你不来落地那可是什么时候又什么时候会有进度啊"},{"start":217.289,"end":235.577,"text":"大家跟委員報告一下其實落地這件事情來講當然當然指的有一些公司當然這裡面提到就是可能跟這個投審會有相關的事情但是我覺得這不是重點重點是不管有沒有落地我們主張是通通都要去努力去管制他們"},{"start":236.477,"end":254.165,"text":"那落地當然有很多的法規可以國內法可以提出因為之前我跟你們開過會你們都說境外的沒辦法管落地的可以管現在真的境外也可以管嗎我大概講一下其實管的方式是像法我可以直接像國內法當然有落地可以直接來去管制它嘛對不對"},{"start":254.865,"end":282.654,"text":"那如果說今天他沒有落地的話我們可以做的方法是當然我們如果可以盡量去跟他溝通協調其實剛剛溝通協調像那個淘寶如果我們有一些管道那請他要求去做一些事情例如說有一些配合因為我也會跟他講說雖然他沒落地我會跟他講說動植物的第38條啊有一些規定啊例如說你要有標示警語啊或者是限制瀏覽這事情你要做你可不可以幫忙一下"},{"start":284.015,"end":304.429,"text":"這就是我想問的 你的各店商平台的組合跟措施真的有到位嗎甚至你有沒有主動去稽查因為你先講境外 就是有落地的都一樣如果沒有主動的話 你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任"},{"start":306.224,"end":328.998,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們應該這樣講我們大概之前就有弄了一個防炸雷達再去掃我們都有在掃這些事情當然這個地方來講我們盡量在我過去講的很多的這種假車牌、傳言件特別是那個電子菸的部分我們也很努力在查但是我也知道說現在其實掃完之後為什麼很多的平台他開始會改名字"},{"start":329.458,"end":339.202,"text":"像那個肉乾肉條我也是可能要救救看現在變成什麼像之前那個電子菸我現在才知道因為我是水理工的怎麼會主機主機板我們說主機板就是電腦必備的怎麼會突然間那個就是電子菸的代名詞馬達"},{"start":344.784,"end":369.77,"text":"马达我也是理工的怎么会马达就是这种东西目前平台就出现几种新型的规避手法让平台稽查形同虚设首先是展示但不贩售的策略有卖家所以为实际贩售我们的应该要检疫的应该因失检的那个义务可是在商品页面当中就展示鸡蛋肉干狗"},{"start":371.091,"end":391.773,"text":"猫狗粮作为示意图他用图你不是用文字虾皮说要标示免责声明的文字可图片中好几个卖家都为宰民的免责声明是不是会让消费者误以为事实上是可购买形成灰色地带那这个是不是也是违反平台规定"},{"start":394.224,"end":407.536,"text":"第二就是证明文件仅放图片经济部有规定要检验合格证要放在商品的图片当中实际上可以发现卖家竟然就是抄其他合格卖家的"},{"start":408.317,"end":424.809,"text":"那個字號用假的別人合格的得到合格證的就我去拿別人的因為平台事實上是用城市串接來跟NCC跟經濟部比對所以平台並沒有進行所謂的審核跟或比對的原始文件真偽"},{"start":426.03,"end":442.157,"text":"所以這兩個問題我不知道你們要怎麼解決我們是否有可以要求平台要有自動審核加人工審核雙軌機制而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核而不是放圖片有辦法做到嗎"},{"start":442.557,"end":465.331,"text":"那個委員的這個提案來講的話因為我剛好跟委員報告其實我們過去有很多的這個跨平台的會議我們會把它納入這個跨平台會議因為我們跨平台會議不是只有部會而已是那個電商跟四大平台通通都會在裡面然後我們一起來討論像過去來講其實我也大概知道委員在提那個像過去那個沙輪機啊或什麼也是牽扯到那個硬絲檢驗啊我們也是在那個平台裡面"},{"start":465.891,"end":479.086,"text":"跟業者討論之後那當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理然後哪些去對照那讓電商跟這個平台之間有一些可以處理一起聯訪我們的態度是這樣下一頁麻煩我們的時部長"},{"start":481.228,"end":497.217,"text":"我一直在關心的一個議題對兒少身心健康的保護玩具真童過去我質詢的時候衛福部就說玩具歸經濟部管經濟部說那個是真童就是歸衛福部管這是我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣後來政院"},{"start":498.477,"end":515.234,"text":"訂定了那個所謂的虛實對應原則那請問部長現在蒸桶到底歸誰管如果他用別的名字叫做精油注入器又是合法的嗎那又是歸誰管網路上販售的話你們有辦法處理嗎還是又是覺得要其他部會來做處理"},{"start":517.85,"end":531.315,"text":"这个可能跟委员说明一下还是要去个案实质认定比如说你现在是这个是看起来去年他讲他讲说玩针针筒现在他不讲了他就讲说那个精油注入器"},{"start":532.931,"end":555.169,"text":"但是它是拿來做什麼用途它是打在人體身上然後呢如果是打在人體身上當然我們是會把它當成醫療器材來管理這還是針筒啊對 它打在人拿來打在人身上可是孩子如果說家長買給孩子玩的話那他如果打孩子是打玩具嗎還是他拿到這針筒去打人身上呢這針筒到底管不管嗎"},{"start":557.099,"end":580.185,"text":"因为他现在就算我们把针筒全部都纳管那他不称为针筒你也没办法嘛所以还是要实质认定他的用途啦对那一样的如果你的用途是这个会用到人体身上的我们基本上都会把他认为是医疗器材来管理所以他讲针筒你们才管不一定要讲针筒啊一样就是用途啦他的这个就是针筒"},{"start":582.017,"end":598.609,"text":"就是你今天講的是注射器但是是打在人體身上那我們還是會乾燥醫療器材來管理注射器這個我覺得有一點如果這樣的話要講打在人身上才要管可是拿到的就是針筒"},{"start":599.934,"end":620.902,"text":"跟委員做進一步的報告因為對於醫療器材它是在醫療上面使用如果這一個器材它使用在玩具上面它其實同樣是真的外型但是它的鋒利度跟它的角度等等其實跟你們有沒有去看說這個鋒利度到底已經是不是到你們的醫療的器材這個不到醫療器材等級的這個離醫療器材等級很遠"},{"start":623.363,"end":645.416,"text":"所以當初呢其實針對這個議題我們有跟經濟部標準局裡面提到如果它的設計的方式目的是兒童的玩具使用那不能當作是醫療器材來說明所以要經濟部的一般商品來去做管理可是對於這種模糊地帶的我們會加強去確認一下它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性"},{"start":645.836,"end":667.097,"text":"跟委員說明 他還是要看用途啦一樣是刀 手術刀 這個是醫療器材菜刀我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管嘛所以不是他會不會傷害人的問題是根據他的用途來歸類 他該用什麼管因為醫療器材 它有它的功能性跟它的安全性 規格會比較高"},{"start":667.637,"end":687.977,"text":"那其他一般用途日常生活用途那個是另外一種那是不是麻煩你們確認一下因為現在都在我們的平台當中可以買得到那蘇發波對於假官監製的規避查驗政府是不是有要求平台建立黑名單還有是自動比對的系統是"},{"start":690.464,"end":711.285,"text":"我們現在目前來講的話也跟委員報告一下其實就我現在知道除了我們自己本身剛剛有講的我們有做那個防炸雷打在掃之外那其實我知道剛剛有提到很多像電子煙火車或者是各部會其實不管衛福部農業部他其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的這些的這些關鍵字是"},{"start":712.406,"end":738.648,"text":"那我们这边来讲的话也会把这些东西的情资其实现在目前都是资讯的社会有时候像那个委员讲的有时候因为肉干突然间变什么文字其实我们在有时候我们也可能疏漏了那必须要大家互相来联防互相来交流这样我们各自的这些model才有办法能够准确的去扫好那夏宜我提出这三个就是我不知道抒发部能做到吗"},{"start":740.658,"end":762.257,"text":"大概跟委員報告一下大概第一個可能因為那個可能要有一些相關的法規或怎樣子所以我說這三點是不是麻煩書法部寫一個評估的一個然後呢給一個月時間可以嗎好可以好謝謝我們的書法部最後再還是麻煩衛福"},{"start":763.158,"end":784.978,"text":"部長最後一個議題很重要的是財化通過之後地方的預算都增加中央大幅的減少中央或地方的相關的社福預算是否會受到影響那最近就有民眾也還有民間團體都來這邊我這邊陳情說部長是不是可以說明一下到底明年度預算社福預算到底有沒有受到影響"},{"start":785.638,"end":802.12,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於弱勢的保障的預算是沒有改變的都沒有改變我們的預算甚至還增加了只不過是因為財化法的關係地方的收入增加了所以我們預算他們增加了所以我們才會把它從計劃型的補助"},{"start":803.962,"end":828.08,"text":"改成是一般性的補助希望地方要相對的編列這個對應的款項主要是這樣部長來跟你澄清一下尤其特別是精神病友的支持那他的預算分散在不管事實上是社安網還是你的身心障礙照顧服務資源的部件計畫裡面中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足的你的自籌款因為地方也有折扣"},{"start":828.821,"end":852.322,"text":"並不是都是要中央才能夠申請到中央補助可預算最多的是精神病友的多元社區生活方案原本都是中央全額的那在經預算用完之後呢有地方政府卻用這個是非法訂設服預算來拒絕編列明年的預算來甩鍋中央讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞部長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":852.982,"end":879.925,"text":"有委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這個事情我們有在了解那就要麻煩部長因為這個違反了精神衛生法第23條跟社會福利基本法的第14條強調各級政府委託辦理社福服務的時候應該要合理編列充足的經費以維護服務使用者的權益相關的規定所以部長是不是可以請你發函要求地方"},{"start":880.305,"end":907.44,"text":"因延續社區支持服務量能並且比照三網跟身心資源的一個部件計劃來調整自籌比例讓地方有法院依據以外來編列預算給予我們的精神病人支持部長可以嗎沒有問題我們這兩天就發文好我也以民間團體的那個角色來感謝你明天之前一定發文好感謝謝謝謝謝委員提醒好謝謝接下來請"},{"start":909.858,"end":910.642,"text":"王振旭委員來發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時33分）主席，麻煩數位發展部數位產業署林組長。"],["主席：林組長。"],["林組長青嶔：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：組長早。在跨境電商疑似有發現小包裝的豬肉食品流入到臺灣的話，可能就會成為防疫破口，其實這句話我從去年就開始在問了。商品不同，可是遇到豬肉的問題，當然我們就問農業部怎麼處理，遇到玩具，我們就問經濟部怎麼處理，遇到玩具針筒，我們就問衛福部怎麼處理，最後都找不到人處理，為什麼？因為在平臺上。所以我想問數位發展部的是，現在所謂的依各機關權責處理，因為7月14號有開過會說要虛實對應，可是有解決了嗎？因為問經濟部也不是它、農業部也是不它、衛福部也不是它，可是就在平臺上啊！所以對跨境電商平臺的監管有用嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：謝謝委員。其實我也知道委員都一直在關注這些問題，當然平臺上面的問題是非常多，委員也知道其實牽扯到很多的作用法，但是我覺得數發部必須要去搭起這樣子的平臺溝通會議，當然有些機制必須要去梳理，我們過去也有跟委員交流，也開了幾次會，針對像電子煙、過去內政部的穿雲箭、偽冒的車牌，還有一些依托咪酯，這些事情我們都會請部會提出一些意見，大家來做交流，當然這聯席的過程中還是可能……"],["林委員月琴：不過組長，交流完如果沒有後續……而且要判斷到底有沒有用，為什麼？因為你們說要去做一些阻斷的時候，我們如果直接在電商平臺上做個實驗就知道了，在疑似有小包裝豬肉流入臺灣的新聞後，包括蝦皮以及淘寶都說早在2019年的時候就已經因應政府政策的有關規定，宣稱已經嚴辦。","可是我必須嚴正地指正，含肉製品的肉乾、肉鬆、寵物食品、風味泡麵，這些都能夠輕易透過平臺進入到臺灣，而且部分賣家甚至以假關鍵字、風味圖示等方法來規避檢驗，因為那些關鍵字……我不要講「槍」，我講「玩具」、「實彈」，讓非洲豬瘟跟口蹄疫的風險繞過邊境，這是整個跨境電商平臺監管制度的一個漏洞，所以數發部知道嗎？目前有什麼應對的方式？何時改善？因為卓院長已經說經濟部、數發部要要求平臺限期落地，因為你們上次落地管、境外不管，如果不配合納管的話，數發部就要要求平臺下架，如果境外的話，它不來落地，可是又什麼時候會有進度啊？"],["林組長青嶔：大概跟委員報告一下，其實以落地這件事情來講，當然有一些公司可能跟投審會有相關的事情，但是我覺得這不是重點，重點是不管有沒有落地，我們主張是通通都要努力去管制他們，落地當然有很多國內法可以去處理。"],["林委員月琴：之前我跟你們開過會，你們都說境外的沒辦法管，落地的可以管，現在真的境外也可以管嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：我大概講一下，其實管的方式像國內法，當然有落地可以直接管制他，如果今天他沒有落地的話，我們可以做的方法是，當然我們可以儘量去跟他溝通協調，像淘寶，我們有一些管道，請他去做一些事情，例如有一些配合……雖然他沒落地，我會跟他說，動物傳染病防治條例第三十八條之二有一些規定，例如要標示警語，或者是要限制瀏覽這些事情，你可不可以幫忙一下？如果說……"],["林委員月琴：所以這就是我想問的，你們各電商平臺的阻隔跟措施真的有到位嗎？甚至你有沒有主動去稽查？你現在講境外有沒有落地的都一樣，如果沒有主動的話，你根本不知道他們真的是在用我剛剛提的很多方法來規避掉責任。"],["林組長青嶔：謝謝委員，應該這樣講，我們之前就有弄了一個防詐雷達去掃，都有在掃這些事情，這個部分像我過去講的很多假車牌、穿雲箭，特別是電子煙的部分，我們也很努力在查，但是我也知道其實掃完之後，很多平臺開始會改名字，像肉乾、肉條，我也是可能要就教，看現在變成什麼。像之前電子煙，我現在才知道，因為我是學理工的，主機板就是電腦必備的，它怎麼會突然間變成電子煙的代名詞，還有馬達，怎麼會馬達就是這種東西！"],["林委員月琴：所以目前平臺就出現幾種新型的規避手法，讓平臺稽查形同虛設。首先是展示但不販售的策略，有賣家雖未實際販售應施檢驗商品，可是在商品頁面當中就展示雞蛋、肉乾、貓狗糧作為示意圖，他用圖，而不是用文字。蝦皮說要標示免責聲明的文字，可是圖片中好幾個賣家都未載明免責聲明，是不是會讓消費者誤以為事實上是可購買，形成灰色地帶？這個是不是也是違反平臺規定？"],["林組長青嶔：是。"],["林委員月琴：第二就是證明文件僅放圖片，經濟部有規定檢驗合格證要放在商品的圖片當中，實際上可以發現，賣家竟然就是抄其他合格賣家的字號，用假的、去用別人得到的合格證，因為平臺事實上是用程式串接跟NCC、經濟部比對，所以平臺並沒有進行審核或比對原始文件真偽。這兩個問題，我不知道你們要怎麼解決，我們是否可以要求平臺要有自動審核加人工審核的雙軌機制，而且必須要上傳正式文件供主管機關查核，而不是放圖片？有辦法做到嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：以委員的提案來講，我剛剛有跟委員報告，其實我們過去有很多跨平臺會議，我們會把它納入跨平臺會議，因為我們跨平臺會議不是只有部會而已，而是電商跟四大平臺通通都會在裡面，我們一起討論。","像過去來講，其實我也大概知道委員在提的，像過去那個砂輪機或什麼也是牽扯到應施檢驗，我們也是在平臺裡面跟業者討論之後，當然標檢局裡面有哪些證要去處理，哪些去對照，讓電商跟平臺之間有一些可以處理，一起聯防，我們的態度是這樣。"],["林委員月琴：好。麻煩石部長。我一直在關心一個和兒少身心健康保護有關的議題，就是玩具針筒。過去我質詢的時候，衛福部說玩具歸經濟部管，經濟部說那個是針筒，就歸衛福部管，我去年質詢的樣態就是這樣。後來政院訂定了所謂的虛實對應原則，請問部長，現在針筒到底歸誰管？如果它用別的名字，叫做精油注入器，這是合法的嗎？那又是歸誰管？網路上販售的話，你們有辦法處理嗎？還是又覺得要其他部會來處理？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明一下，這還是要個案實質去認定，比如說，你現在這個看起來像玩具……"],["林委員月琴：去年他講針筒，現在他不講了，他就說精油注入器。"],["石部長崇良：但是他是拿來做什麼用途？是打在人體身上……"],["林委員月琴：打在玩具上，然後玩具……"],["石部長崇良：如果是打在人體身上，我們當然會把它當成醫療器材來管理。"],["林委員月琴：這還是針筒，不管嗎？"],["石部長崇良：拿來打在人身上……"],["林委員月琴：如果家長買給孩子玩，孩子是把針筒打在玩具上，還是拿這個針筒打在人身上？這個針筒到底管不管？"],["石部長崇良：因為現在……就算我們把針筒全部都納管，但它不稱為針筒，你也沒辦法嘛！所以還是要實質認定它的用途啦！"],["林委員月琴：對，一樣的……"],["石部長崇良：如果用途是會用到人體身上的，我們基本上都會把它認為是醫療器材來管理。"],["林委員月琴：所以他講針筒你們才管？"],["石部長崇良：不一定要講針筒，就是看用途啦！"],["林委員月琴：可是這個就是針筒。"],["石部長崇良：要看這個做什麼用。假設你今天講的是注射器，但是打在人體身上，我們還是會按照醫療器材來管理。"],["林委員月琴：這個我覺得有一點……如果要打在人身上才要管，可是拿到的就是針筒啊！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員進一步報告，醫療器材是在醫療上面使用，如果這個器材使用在玩具上面，它同樣是針的外型，但是它的鋒利度跟角度等等，其實跟一般的針會不一樣。"],["林委員月琴：那你們有沒有去看這個鋒利度是不是到你們醫療器材的……"],["姜署長至剛：這不到醫療器材等級，這個離醫療器材等級很遠，所以當初其實針對這個議題，我們有跟經濟部標準局提到，如果它設計的方式、目的是兒童的玩具使用，那不能當作是醫療器材來說明，要當作經濟部的一般商品來管理。對於這種模糊地帶的，我們會加強去確認一下，它是不是會有達到所謂醫療器材等級的可能性。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩了。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，它還是要看用途。一樣是刀，手術刀，這個是醫療器材；菜刀，我們就不會把它當成醫療器材管。所以不是它會不會傷害人的問題，是根據它的用途，來歸類它該用什麼管。因為醫療器材有它的功能性跟安全性，規格會比較高，其他一般用途、日常生活用途，那個是另外一種。"],["林委員月琴：是不是麻煩你們確認一下？因為現在平臺上都可以買得到。","數發部對於用假關鍵字來規避查驗，政府是不是有要求平臺建立黑名單？有沒有自動比對的系統？"],["林組長青嶔：是，跟委員報告，除了剛剛講的，我們有做防詐雷達在掃之外，剛剛有提到很多像電子煙等等，各部會不管衛福部、農業部，其實本身都有一組隨時在更動的關鍵字，我們這邊也會把這些東西的情資……現在都是資訊社會，像委員講的，有時候肉乾突然間變什麼文字，有時候我們也可能疏漏了，必須要大家互相聯防、互相交流，這樣我們各自的這些model才有辦法能夠準確去掃。"],["林委員月琴：下一頁PDT是我提出的三個主張，不知道數發部能做到嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：跟委員報告，第一個因為可能要有一些相關的法規，但是……"],["林委員月琴：所以這三點是不是麻煩數發部寫一個評估報告，給你們1個月時間，可以嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：好，可以。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝數發部。"],["林組長青嶔：感謝委員。"],["林委員月琴：最後，還是麻煩衛福部部長。很重要的一個議題是財劃法通過之後，地方的預算增加，中央大幅減少，中央或地方相關的社福預算是否會受到影響？最近就有民眾、民間團體來我這邊陳情。部長是不是可以說明一下，到底明年度社福預算有沒有受到影響？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們對於弱勢保障預算是沒有改變的，都沒有改變。我們的預算甚至還增加了，只不過因為財劃法的關係，地方的收入增加了，所以我們才會把它從計畫型補助改成是一般性補助，希望地方要編列對應的款項，主要是這樣。"],["林委員月琴：部長，跟你澄清一下，特別是對精神病友的支持，它的預算分散在包含社安網，還有身心障礙照顧服務資源布建計畫等，中央都會強制地方政府一定要編足自籌款，才能夠申請到中央補助。因為地方也有責任，並不是全部都中央。其中預算最多的是精神病友多元社區生活方案，原本都是中央全額補助。"],["石部長崇良：對，全額。"],["林委員月琴：今年的預算用完之後，有地方政府卻用這個是非法定社福預算理由來拒絕編列明年的預算並甩鍋中央，讓精神病友的社區支持出現破洞。部長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["石部長崇良：有，委員前幾天有特別跟我提醒這件事情，我們有在了解。"],["林委員月琴：那就要麻煩部長，因為這違反了精神衛生法第二十三條跟社會福利基本法第十四條，強調各級政府委託辦理社服服務的時候，應該要合理編列充足的經費，以維護服務使用者的權益相關規定。所以部長，是不是可以請你們發函要求地方政府，應延續社區支持服務量能，並且比照社安網與身心資源的布建計畫來調整自籌比例，以讓地方有法源依據來編列預算，給予我們的精神病人支持。部長，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：沒有問題，我們這兩天就會發文。"],["林委員月琴：好，我以民間團體的角色來感謝你們，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：明天之前一定發文，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：感謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王正旭委員作詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}}