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\"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 652.584, \"end\": 655.654, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"耶\", \"start\": 655.654, \"end\": 655.855, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 655.855, \"end\": 656.055, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 656.055, \"end\": 656.356, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 656.356, \"end\": 656.376, \"score\": 0.103}, {\"word\": \"來\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,638 --> 00:00:32,266\n主席好麻煩關務署房檢署還有防震師好那個各位那個官員我們今天在討論說這個防止豬瘟阻絕於邊境主要是這件事情那我們先來看一下\n\n2\n00:00:33,772 --> 00:01:02,847\n我們先來看一下這個豬瘟其實不是只有在有些人強調中國大陸或東南亞這個紅線的這個紅色的部分其實是有豬瘟出現的地方其實蠻多的那我們是看到說我們現在政府是在10月22號才開始說要針對中國大陸跟東南亞要開始查緝其食品\n\n3\n00:01:03,507 --> 00:01:25,337\n但其實你可以看到9月15號韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟他在今年年初的時候就有了然後到9月15號變得比較嚴重他們調整到最高等級的嚴重那我們今天為什麼為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品其他國家的防範機制有嗎\n\n4\n00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:48,911\n我跟委員報告所有非洲國家的只要含豬肉跟肉質的產品都不可以進來國內所有的都不行所有不行我知道但是那這邊政府講說只針對中國跟東南亞加強這新聞中央社的報導那如果針對加強那其他的為什麼不加強\n\n5\n00:01:49,511 --> 00:02:18,971\n跟委員報告那中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的氣質品就是不管在海關那或者是在國際機場或者是在我們的港口等等這些氣質品裡面那我們去抽驗逐驗抽驗那從他的檢疫物的檢疫的結果那發現我們非洲朱溫層陽性的10%那其中中國大陸還有越南包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是\n\n6\n00:02:19,551 --> 00:02:41,616\n比率比较高的因为比率比较高所以比较加强那当然我觉得应该是要做到滴水不漏啦我们来看一个东西就是有关于邮包的部分因为我看到民进党的立委吴思瑶非常重视这一块但他主要都是针对中国可是实际上有一些跨境电商你们也可以去看一下\n\n7\n00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:57,301\n特別是到底是哪一些東西是可以下訂哪一些東西是不能下訂國人到現在搞不太清楚連吳世耀都搞不清楚我看到吳世耀他在他的貼文上面講說淘寶的罐頭很多但實際上請問一下署長罐頭是可不可以可不可以訂購\n\n8\n00:02:59,147 --> 00:03:16,149\n署長罐頭可以訂購嗎罐頭目前是可以的罐頭可以嗎但吳思瑤不知道他以為罐頭不可以所以他講說淘寶上面有罐頭啊這些都要查所以你看連執政黨立委做過幹市長的都搞不清楚可見其他的國人到底哪一些可以透過那個\n\n9\n00:03:17,510 --> 00:03:45,458\n電商來購買或哪些不可以現在大家還是很混亂那我現在秀幾個給你看這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的像左邊這個是酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包請問一下這個可以進來台灣嗎可以嗎其實這要看製程要看製程對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎\n\n10\n00:03:46,988 --> 00:03:59,899\n你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的\n\n11\n00:04:00,612 --> 00:04:23,700\n我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題欸是跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0只有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛\n\n12\n00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:48,559\n我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯\n\n13\n00:04:53,403 --> 00:05:05,913\n這可以進來台灣嗎如果只看外包裝的話沒有辦法判定那你上面講說液態含肉液態湯是指什麼上一頁含肉液態湯類這是指什麼\n\n14\n00:05:09,444 --> 00:05:27,878\n這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛\n\n15\n00:05:29,019 --> 00:05:57,404\n不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛\n\n16\n00:05:58,484 --> 00:06:24,554\n所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方姐姐來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對但是我現在就是在那個跨境電商上面抓的照片啊它就沒有下架啊你就是可以訂啊我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰啊那要怎麼去解決這個問題嘛\n\n17\n00:06:26,494 --> 00:06:44,680\n現在問題在這裡嘛是所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商即時的下架不是啊那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架\n\n18\n00:06:45,552 --> 00:07:06,015\n我們會持續的跟無電面公會等等的團體溝通這個是副組長是不是你講的都是口號嘛我講的是實際嘛我現在想的是實際上我們民眾會遇到的問題你講的都是口號嘛你講的都是原則嘛但實際上原則跟實際現在聽起來有極大的落差嘛所以就會有漏洞嘛\n\n19\n00:07:06,215 --> 00:07:33,713\n因為這段時間真的是我們對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下\n\n20\n00:07:35,233 --> 00:07:54,823\n房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以\n\n21\n00:07:55,384 --> 00:08:10,906\n這樣子我們來正面表列來讓民眾可以參考但我跟委員說一般我們高溫殺菌高溫殺菌我們的高溫殺菌大概121度我們現在在解決我知道這個原則我都知道啦這個原則我都我現在是在講食物面嘛\n\n22\n00:08:11,892 --> 00:08:26,497\n你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂啊實務面嘛因為我剛剛就是具體問你嘛我是消費者我要下單到底可不可以你們也無法回答啊你只講一個原則啊那你講的原則大家都知道啊可是那個原則放到實際上面就無法操作嘛這就是有漏洞嘛\n\n23\n00:08:27,315 --> 00:08:56,458\n然後再來就是現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案總共14件主要原因是什麼人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況\n\n24\n00:08:57,359 --> 00:09:20,514\n不是這個我可能要說明一下他的太陽上第一個我先說明進來的霧絕對是全部銷毀我知道有銷毀啦我們現在是在講說那對人的責任的部分要因為我們在查訪這個當事人的時候很多都認為說他是被冒名或他不知情多少1320件裡面有多少件他是說他被冒名\n\n25\n00:09:23,232 --> 00:09:36,939\n這個還要再...這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會打不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊那總共幾案\n\n26\n00:09:45,287 --> 00:09:56,592\n那目前有裁罰的是9案我知道裁罰9案訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊\n\n27\n00:09:58,334 --> 00:10:19,785\n第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單了嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是\n\n28\n00:10:21,344 --> 00:10:47,673\n你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來蒐集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好謝謝\n\n29\n00:10:52,383 --> 00:10:56,376\n這個很嚴重耶這個是有問題的來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3638\t32266\t主席好麻煩關務署房檢署還有防震師好那個各位那個官員我們今天在討論說這個防止豬瘟阻絕於邊境主要是這件事情那我們先來看一下\n33772\t62847\t我們先來看一下這個豬瘟其實不是只有在有些人強調中國大陸或東南亞這個紅線的這個紅色的部分其實是有豬瘟出現的地方其實蠻多的那我們是看到說我們現在政府是在10月22號才開始說要針對中國大陸跟東南亞要開始查緝其食品\n63507\t85337\t但其實你可以看到9月15號韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟他在今年年初的時候就有了然後到9月15號變得比較嚴重他們調整到最高等級的嚴重那我們今天為什麼為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品其他國家的防範機制有嗎\n86520\t108911\t我跟委員報告所有非洲國家的只要含豬肉跟肉質的產品都不可以進來國內所有的都不行所有不行我知道但是那這邊政府講說只針對中國跟東南亞加強這新聞中央社的報導那如果針對加強那其他的為什麼不加強\n109511\t138971\t跟委員報告那中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的氣質品就是不管在海關那或者是在國際機場或者是在我們的港口等等這些氣質品裡面那我們去抽驗逐驗抽驗那從他的檢疫物的檢疫的結果那發現我們非洲朱溫層陽性的10%那其中中國大陸還有越南包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是\n139551\t161616\t比率比较高的因为比率比较高所以比较加强那当然我觉得应该是要做到滴水不漏啦我们来看一个东西就是有关于邮包的部分因为我看到民进党的立委吴思瑶非常重视这一块但他主要都是针对中国可是实际上有一些跨境电商你们也可以去看一下\n162196\t177301\t特別是到底是哪一些東西是可以下訂哪一些東西是不能下訂國人到現在搞不太清楚連吳世耀都搞不清楚我看到吳世耀他在他的貼文上面講說淘寶的罐頭很多但實際上請問一下署長罐頭是可不可以可不可以訂購\n179147\t196149\t署長罐頭可以訂購嗎罐頭目前是可以的罐頭可以嗎但吳思瑤不知道他以為罐頭不可以所以他講說淘寶上面有罐頭啊這些都要查所以你看連執政黨立委做過幹市長的都搞不清楚可見其他的國人到底哪一些可以透過那個\n197510\t225458\t電商來購買或哪些不可以現在大家還是很混亂那我現在秀幾個給你看這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的像左邊這個是酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包請問一下這個可以進來台灣嗎可以嗎其實這要看製程要看製程 對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎\n226988\t239899\t你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的\n240612\t263700\t我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題欸是 跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0只有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是 你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛\n265040\t288559\t我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯\n293403\t305913\t這可以進來台灣嗎如果只看外包裝的話沒有辦法判定那你上面講說液態含肉液態湯是指什麼上一頁含肉液態湯類這是指什麼\n309444\t327878\t這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛\n329019\t357404\t不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛\n358484\t384554\t所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方姐姐來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對 但是我現在就是在那個跨境電商上面抓的照片啊它就沒有下架啊你就是可以訂啊我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰啊那要怎麼去解決這個問題嘛\n386494\t404680\t現在問題在這裡嘛是 所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商即時的下架不是啊 那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商 是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架\n405552\t426015\t我們會持續的跟無電面公會等等的團體溝通這個是副組長是不是你講的都是口號嘛我講的是實際嘛我現在想的是實際上我們民眾會遇到的問題你講的都是口號嘛你講的都是原則嘛但實際上原則跟實際現在聽起來有極大的落差嘛所以就會有漏洞嘛\n426215\t453713\t因為這段時間真的是我們對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下\n455233\t474823\t房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以\n475384\t490906\t這樣子我們來正面表列來讓民眾可以參考但我跟委員說一般我們高溫殺菌高溫殺菌我們的高溫殺菌大概121度我們現在在解決我知道這個原則我都知道啦這個原則我都我現在是在講食物面嘛\n491892\t506497\t你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂啊實務面嘛因為我剛剛就是具體問你嘛我是消費者我要下單到底可不可以你們也無法回答啊你只講一個原則啊那你講的原則大家都知道啊可是那個原則放到實際上面就無法操作嘛這就是有漏洞嘛\n507315\t536458\t然後再來就是 現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案 總共14件主要原因是什麼 人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況\n537359\t560514\t不是這個我可能要說明一下他的太陽上第一個我先說明進來的霧絕對是全部銷毀我知道有銷毀啦我們現在是在講說那對人的責任的部分要因為我們在查訪這個當事人的時候很多都認為說他是被冒名或他不知情多少1320件裡面有多少件他是說他被冒名\n563232\t576939\t這個還要再...這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會打不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是 這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊 那總共幾案\n585287\t596592\t那目前有裁罰的是9案我知道裁罰9案 訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊\n598334\t619785\t第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單了嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是\n621344\t647673\t你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來蒐集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好謝謝\n652383\t656376\t這個很嚴重耶這個是有問題的來\n","txt":"主席好麻煩關務署房檢署還有防震師好那個各位那個官員我們今天在討論說這個防止豬瘟阻絕於邊境主要是這件事情那我們先來看一下\n我們先來看一下這個豬瘟其實不是只有在有些人強調中國大陸或東南亞這個紅線的這個紅色的部分其實是有豬瘟出現的地方其實蠻多的那我們是看到說我們現在政府是在10月22號才開始說要針對中國大陸跟東南亞要開始查緝其食品\n但其實你可以看到9月15號韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟他在今年年初的時候就有了然後到9月15號變得比較嚴重他們調整到最高等級的嚴重那我們今天為什麼為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品其他國家的防範機制有嗎\n我跟委員報告所有非洲國家的只要含豬肉跟肉質的產品都不可以進來國內所有的都不行所有不行我知道但是那這邊政府講說只針對中國跟東南亞加強這新聞中央社的報導那如果針對加強那其他的為什麼不加強\n跟委員報告那中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的氣質品就是不管在海關那或者是在國際機場或者是在我們的港口等等這些氣質品裡面那我們去抽驗逐驗抽驗那從他的檢疫物的檢疫的結果那發現我們非洲朱溫層陽性的10%那其中中國大陸還有越南包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是\n比率比较高的因为比率比较高所以比较加强那当然我觉得应该是要做到滴水不漏啦我们来看一个东西就是有关于邮包的部分因为我看到民进党的立委吴思瑶非常重视这一块但他主要都是针对中国可是实际上有一些跨境电商你们也可以去看一下\n特別是到底是哪一些東西是可以下訂哪一些東西是不能下訂國人到現在搞不太清楚連吳世耀都搞不清楚我看到吳世耀他在他的貼文上面講說淘寶的罐頭很多但實際上請問一下署長罐頭是可不可以可不可以訂購\n署長罐頭可以訂購嗎罐頭目前是可以的罐頭可以嗎但吳思瑤不知道他以為罐頭不可以所以他講說淘寶上面有罐頭啊這些都要查所以你看連執政黨立委做過幹市長的都搞不清楚可見其他的國人到底哪一些可以透過那個\n電商來購買或哪些不可以現在大家還是很混亂那我現在秀幾個給你看這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的像左邊這個是酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包請問一下這個可以進來台灣嗎可以嗎其實這要看製程要看製程 對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎\n你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的\n我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題欸是 跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0只有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是 你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛\n我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯\n這可以進來台灣嗎如果只看外包裝的話沒有辦法判定那你上面講說液態含肉液態湯是指什麼上一頁含肉液態湯類這是指什麼\n這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛\n不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛\n所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方姐姐來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對 但是我現在就是在那個跨境電商上面抓的照片啊它就沒有下架啊你就是可以訂啊我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰啊那要怎麼去解決這個問題嘛\n現在問題在這裡嘛是 所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商即時的下架不是啊 那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商 是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架\n我們會持續的跟無電面公會等等的團體溝通這個是副組長是不是你講的都是口號嘛我講的是實際嘛我現在想的是實際上我們民眾會遇到的問題你講的都是口號嘛你講的都是原則嘛但實際上原則跟實際現在聽起來有極大的落差嘛所以就會有漏洞嘛\n因為這段時間真的是我們對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下\n房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以\n這樣子我們來正面表列來讓民眾可以參考但我跟委員說一般我們高溫殺菌高溫殺菌我們的高溫殺菌大概121度我們現在在解決我知道這個原則我都知道啦這個原則我都我現在是在講食物面嘛\n你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂啊實務面嘛因為我剛剛就是具體問你嘛我是消費者我要下單到底可不可以你們也無法回答啊你只講一個原則啊那你講的原則大家都知道啊可是那個原則放到實際上面就無法操作嘛這就是有漏洞嘛\n然後再來就是 現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案 總共14件主要原因是什麼 人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況\n不是這個我可能要說明一下他的太陽上第一個我先說明進來的霧絕對是全部銷毀我知道有銷毀啦我們現在是在講說那對人的責任的部分要因為我們在查訪這個當事人的時候很多都認為說他是被冒名或他不知情多少1320件裡面有多少件他是說他被冒名\n這個還要再...這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會打不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是 這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊 那總共幾案\n那目前有裁罰的是9案我知道裁罰9案 訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊\n第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單了嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是\n你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來蒐集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好謝謝\n這個很嚴重耶這個是有問題的來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.638 --> 00:32.266\n主席好麻煩關務署房檢署還有防震師好那個各位那個官員我們今天在討論說這個防止豬瘟阻絕於邊境主要是這件事情那我們先來看一下\n\n00:33.772 --> 01:02.847\n我們先來看一下這個豬瘟其實不是只有在有些人強調中國大陸或東南亞這個紅線的這個紅色的部分其實是有豬瘟出現的地方其實蠻多的那我們是看到說我們現在政府是在10月22號才開始說要針對中國大陸跟東南亞要開始查緝其食品\n\n01:03.507 --> 01:25.337\n但其實你可以看到9月15號韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟他在今年年初的時候就有了然後到9月15號變得比較嚴重他們調整到最高等級的嚴重那我們今天為什麼為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品其他國家的防範機制有嗎\n\n01:26.520 --> 01:48.911\n我跟委員報告所有非洲國家的只要含豬肉跟肉質的產品都不可以進來國內所有的都不行所有不行我知道但是那這邊政府講說只針對中國跟東南亞加強這新聞中央社的報導那如果針對加強那其他的為什麼不加強\n\n01:49.511 --> 02:18.971\n跟委員報告那中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的氣質品就是不管在海關那或者是在國際機場或者是在我們的港口等等這些氣質品裡面那我們去抽驗逐驗抽驗那從他的檢疫物的檢疫的結果那發現我們非洲朱溫層陽性的10%那其中中國大陸還有越南包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是\n\n02:19.551 --> 02:41.616\n比率比较高的因为比率比较高所以比较加强那当然我觉得应该是要做到滴水不漏啦我们来看一个东西就是有关于邮包的部分因为我看到民进党的立委吴思瑶非常重视这一块但他主要都是针对中国可是实际上有一些跨境电商你们也可以去看一下\n\n02:42.196 --> 02:57.301\n特別是到底是哪一些東西是可以下訂哪一些東西是不能下訂國人到現在搞不太清楚連吳世耀都搞不清楚我看到吳世耀他在他的貼文上面講說淘寶的罐頭很多但實際上請問一下署長罐頭是可不可以可不可以訂購\n\n02:59.147 --> 03:16.149\n署長罐頭可以訂購嗎罐頭目前是可以的罐頭可以嗎但吳思瑤不知道他以為罐頭不可以所以他講說淘寶上面有罐頭啊這些都要查所以你看連執政黨立委做過幹市長的都搞不清楚可見其他的國人到底哪一些可以透過那個\n\n03:17.510 --> 03:45.458\n電商來購買或哪些不可以現在大家還是很混亂那我現在秀幾個給你看這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的像左邊這個是酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包請問一下這個可以進來台灣嗎可以嗎其實這要看製程要看製程對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎\n\n03:46.988 --> 03:59.899\n你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的\n\n04:00.612 --> 04:23.700\n我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題欸是跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0只有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛\n\n04:25.040 --> 04:48.559\n我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯\n\n04:53.403 --> 05:05.913\n這可以進來台灣嗎如果只看外包裝的話沒有辦法判定那你上面講說液態含肉液態湯是指什麼上一頁含肉液態湯類這是指什麼\n\n05:09.444 --> 05:27.878\n這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛\n\n05:29.019 --> 05:57.404\n不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛\n\n05:58.484 --> 06:24.554\n所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方姐姐來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對但是我現在就是在那個跨境電商上面抓的照片啊它就沒有下架啊你就是可以訂啊我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰啊那要怎麼去解決這個問題嘛\n\n06:26.494 --> 06:44.680\n現在問題在這裡嘛是所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商即時的下架不是啊那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架\n\n06:45.552 --> 07:06.015\n我們會持續的跟無電面公會等等的團體溝通這個是副組長是不是你講的都是口號嘛我講的是實際嘛我現在想的是實際上我們民眾會遇到的問題你講的都是口號嘛你講的都是原則嘛但實際上原則跟實際現在聽起來有極大的落差嘛所以就會有漏洞嘛\n\n07:06.215 --> 07:33.713\n因為這段時間真的是我們對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下\n\n07:35.233 --> 07:54.823\n房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以\n\n07:55.384 --> 08:10.906\n這樣子我們來正面表列來讓民眾可以參考但我跟委員說一般我們高溫殺菌高溫殺菌我們的高溫殺菌大概121度我們現在在解決我知道這個原則我都知道啦這個原則我都我現在是在講食物面嘛\n\n08:11.892 --> 08:26.497\n你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂啊實務面嘛因為我剛剛就是具體問你嘛我是消費者我要下單到底可不可以你們也無法回答啊你只講一個原則啊那你講的原則大家都知道啊可是那個原則放到實際上面就無法操作嘛這就是有漏洞嘛\n\n08:27.315 --> 08:56.458\n然後再來就是現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案總共14件主要原因是什麼人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況\n\n08:57.359 --> 09:20.514\n不是這個我可能要說明一下他的太陽上第一個我先說明進來的霧絕對是全部銷毀我知道有銷毀啦我們現在是在講說那對人的責任的部分要因為我們在查訪這個當事人的時候很多都認為說他是被冒名或他不知情多少1320件裡面有多少件他是說他被冒名\n\n09:23.232 --> 09:36.939\n這個還要再...這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會打不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊那總共幾案\n\n09:45.287 --> 09:56.592\n那目前有裁罰的是9案我知道裁罰9案訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊\n\n09:58.334 --> 10:19.785\n第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單了嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是\n\n10:21.344 --> 10:47.673\n你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來蒐集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好謝謝\n\n10:52.383 --> 10:56.376\n這個很嚴重耶這個是有問題的來\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.638,"end":32.266,"text":"主席好麻煩關務署房檢署還有防震師好那個各位那個官員我們今天在討論說這個防止豬瘟阻絕於邊境主要是這件事情那我們先來看一下"},{"start":33.772,"end":62.847,"text":"我們先來看一下這個豬瘟其實不是只有在有些人強調中國大陸或東南亞這個紅線的這個紅色的部分其實是有豬瘟出現的地方其實蠻多的那我們是看到說我們現在政府是在10月22號才開始說要針對中國大陸跟東南亞要開始查緝其食品"},{"start":63.507,"end":85.337,"text":"但其實你可以看到9月15號韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟他在今年年初的時候就有了然後到9月15號變得比較嚴重他們調整到最高等級的嚴重那我們今天為什麼為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品其他國家的防範機制有嗎"},{"start":86.52,"end":108.911,"text":"我跟委員報告所有非洲國家的只要含豬肉跟肉質的產品都不可以進來國內所有的都不行所有不行我知道但是那這邊政府講說只針對中國跟東南亞加強這新聞中央社的報導那如果針對加強那其他的為什麼不加強"},{"start":109.511,"end":138.971,"text":"跟委員報告那中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的氣質品就是不管在海關那或者是在國際機場或者是在我們的港口等等這些氣質品裡面那我們去抽驗逐驗抽驗那從他的檢疫物的檢疫的結果那發現我們非洲朱溫層陽性的10%那其中中國大陸還有越南包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是"},{"start":139.551,"end":161.616,"text":"比率比较高的因为比率比较高所以比较加强那当然我觉得应该是要做到滴水不漏啦我们来看一个东西就是有关于邮包的部分因为我看到民进党的立委吴思瑶非常重视这一块但他主要都是针对中国可是实际上有一些跨境电商你们也可以去看一下"},{"start":162.196,"end":177.301,"text":"特別是到底是哪一些東西是可以下訂哪一些東西是不能下訂國人到現在搞不太清楚連吳世耀都搞不清楚我看到吳世耀他在他的貼文上面講說淘寶的罐頭很多但實際上請問一下署長罐頭是可不可以可不可以訂購"},{"start":179.147,"end":196.149,"text":"署長罐頭可以訂購嗎罐頭目前是可以的罐頭可以嗎但吳思瑤不知道他以為罐頭不可以所以他講說淘寶上面有罐頭啊這些都要查所以你看連執政黨立委做過幹市長的都搞不清楚可見其他的國人到底哪一些可以透過那個"},{"start":197.51,"end":225.458,"text":"電商來購買或哪些不可以現在大家還是很混亂那我現在秀幾個給你看這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的像左邊這個是酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包請問一下這個可以進來台灣嗎可以嗎其實這要看製程要看製程 對那所以你光看這個圖片署長是不能判斷嗎"},{"start":226.988,"end":239.899,"text":"你看你們兩個都要討論所以對是委員跟委員報告一下罐頭食品現在樣態日新月異喔所以其實這個不是罐頭食品就是高溫滅菌罐製我所謂的"},{"start":240.612,"end":263.7,"text":"我現在在問你說這個酵動食品豬肉湯即食調理包這可不可以進來台灣我是問這個問題欸是 跟委員報告如果說它這個這樣子的產品它的F0只有大於等於3達到一個商業滅菌的狀態而且它的包裝是密閉式的話不是 你不要跟我講原則嘛我現在就是我要下單了啊我現在到底這個東西能不能進台灣嘛"},{"start":265.04,"end":288.559,"text":"我現在就問你嘛所以這樣子的產品我們都會建議民眾說如果你有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們我們可以回覆給您您再下單所以你在電商上面看到這個東西你覺得很好吃你想要買你無法判定嘛你都要先去問一下房間署說這可不可以進來進來才能確定嘛對不對那所以我問你這右邊這兩個你大概也不能回答了嘛這個不倒翁山豬血湯"},{"start":293.403,"end":305.913,"text":"這可以進來台灣嗎如果只看外包裝的話沒有辦法判定那你上面講說液態含肉液態湯是指什麼上一頁含肉液態湯類這是指什麼"},{"start":309.444,"end":327.878,"text":"這個就是說如果他的這個是湯類液態的含有肉品而且他不是符合剛剛講的高安滅菌罐製的定義你現在一直講原則但是你實際上我們我現在講的是消費者的狀況嘛消費者就是會看到這些東西那到底是可以下單還是不可以下單他無從判定起嘛"},{"start":329.019,"end":357.404,"text":"不是嗎那怎麼去解決這個問題嘛因為這個就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來如果說他是人帶進來的話你們是有宣導啦他進來之前主動詢問如果說發現不可以那你交出來是免受罰嘛對吧那可是如果是透過電商下訂呢一樣就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了他可以講說我不知道所以不受罰嘛"},{"start":358.484,"end":384.554,"text":"所以包圍園我們在電商上面的話都會請他們把含肉的產品下架那我們也會跟民眾鼓勵他們說如果有疑問的話可以跟方姐姐來詢問你說請電商把含肉食品下架對 但是我現在就是在那個跨境電商上面抓的照片啊它就沒有下架啊你就是可以訂啊我現在消費者的問題就是我不知道訂來之後我花錢了以後會不會被罰啊那要怎麼去解決這個問題嘛"},{"start":386.494,"end":404.68,"text":"現在問題在這裡嘛是 所以我們剛剛有報告說我們有一些預防性的措施包括每天都有上這個電商的平台去做關鍵字的搜尋如果發現的話我們就請電商即時的下架不是啊 那就是有啊不然你就是做不夠啊不然我這個查到而且這是跨境電商 是國外的耶你怎麼要他下架"},{"start":405.552,"end":426.015,"text":"我們會持續的跟無電面公會等等的團體溝通這個是副組長是不是你講的都是口號嘛我講的是實際嘛我現在想的是實際上我們民眾會遇到的問題你講的都是口號嘛你講的都是原則嘛但實際上原則跟實際現在聽起來有極大的落差嘛所以就會有漏洞嘛"},{"start":426.215,"end":453.713,"text":"因為這段時間真的是我們對我們來講是很關鍵期是不是我們重新就針對正面表列哪一些的產品不行我們把它整理出來快速在我們相關的媒宣上來做披露讓民眾可以做比對那假設有更進一步想要了解再直接跟我們來做聯繫所以你現在是宣導說如果大家在電商上面看到像連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西的時候要主動問一下"},{"start":455.233,"end":474.823,"text":"房检局说这可以买那你请问一下去询问这件事情方便吗你们是要询问方便吗通常询问多久比如我现在已经要要下单了我现在就要下单我只有10分钟时间那我在这10分钟之内我要打电话到房检局然后问说这可不可以"},{"start":475.384,"end":490.906,"text":"這樣子我們來正面表列來讓民眾可以參考但我跟委員說一般我們高溫殺菌高溫殺菌我們的高溫殺菌大概121度我們現在在解決我知道這個原則我都知道啦這個原則我都我現在是在講食物面嘛"},{"start":491.892,"end":506.497,"text":"你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂啊實務面嘛因為我剛剛就是具體問你嘛我是消費者我要下單到底可不可以你們也無法回答啊你只講一個原則啊那你講的原則大家都知道啊可是那個原則放到實際上面就無法操作嘛這就是有漏洞嘛"},{"start":507.315,"end":536.458,"text":"然後再來就是 現在東京進來了大概你們現在裁罰的比例很低嘛是不是這根據資料111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1320件但只裁罰了9案 總共14件主要原因是什麼 人手不足是不是不是不是因為我聽你們私下講說是因為人手不足無法去仔細調查說那個案件到底什麼狀況"},{"start":537.359,"end":560.514,"text":"不是這個我可能要說明一下他的太陽上第一個我先說明進來的霧絕對是全部銷毀我知道有銷毀啦我們現在是在講說那對人的責任的部分要因為我們在查訪這個當事人的時候很多都認為說他是被冒名或他不知情多少1320件裡面有多少件他是說他被冒名"},{"start":563.232,"end":576.939,"text":"這個還要再...這個應該我看昨天你在別的委員會很多委員在問這個問題啊怎麼會打不出來1320件多少被冒名總不可能大家都被冒名嘛台灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重不是 這個是銷毀的銷毀的已經有1320件對啊 那總共幾案"},{"start":585.287,"end":596.592,"text":"那目前有裁罰的是9案我知道裁罰9案 訴訟中的有20幾案還是很低啊所以他沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用啊"},{"start":598.334,"end":619.785,"text":"第一個就是說大家搞不清楚下單了嘛有的搞不清楚的嘛啊第二個有可能是故意的嘛啊故意你們現在是裁罰故意而已嘛搞不清楚跟過失是不裁罰嘛對吧但是搞不清楚前端我剛問你你們自己在這個備詢台上你也無法判斷啊那你無法判斷你要消費者怎麼去判斷所以這一塊問題要解決嘛然後再來就是"},{"start":621.344,"end":647.673,"text":"你如果說讓他搞不清楚東西進來他錢也花了這你也是讓民眾白花錢他不想違法可是就是因為搞不清楚所以不小心這東西就他拿不到錢花了我覺得這個問題也是要解決我們來蒐集這個樣態來做一些的對應的處置看怎麼樣再來加強我想也做到民眾的權益但是最重要還是在防疫不要成為一個那個破口或漏洞好謝謝"},{"start":652.383,"end":656.376,"text":"這個很嚴重耶這個是有問題的來"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1108,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時15分）主席好。麻煩關務署、防檢署。"],["主席：關務署、防檢署。"],["葉委員元之：還有航政司。"],["主席：航政司。"],["葉委員元之：各位官員，我們今天在討論防止豬瘟、阻絕於邊境，主要是這件事情。我們先看一下豬瘟出現的地方，有些人強調中國大陸或東南亞，本席所示圖中紅色的部分是有豬瘟出現的地方，其實滿多的，不是只有中國大陸或東南亞，我們看到現在政府是在10月22日才針對中國大陸跟東南亞開始查緝其食品，但其實你可以看到9月15日，韓國就已經爆發非洲豬瘟，他在今年年初的時候就有了，然後到9月15日變得比較嚴重，他們調整到最高等級的嚴重。我們現在為什麼只針對東南亞跟中國食品，其他國家的防範機制有嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告，所有非洲國家只要含豬肉跟肉質的產品，都不可以進來國內，所有的都不行。"],["葉委員元之：所有不行，我知道啊。但是政府講只針對中國跟東南亞加強。"],["杜署長麗華：沒有、沒有，是所有的。"],["葉委員元之：這新聞是中央社的報導。"],["杜署長麗華：如果針對……"],["葉委員元之：加強，其他的為什麼不加強？"],["杜署長麗華：跟委員報告，中國跟東南亞的加強是因為我們從所有的棄置品，就是不管在海關，或者是在國際機場，或者是在我們的港口等等，這些棄置品裡面，我們去逐件抽驗，從檢疫物的檢疫結果，發現非洲豬瘟呈陽性的有10%，其中中國大陸還有越南，包括泰國跟馬來西亞都是比例比較高的。"],["葉委員元之：因為比例高，所以比較加強。"],["杜署長麗華：所以對他們都要特別加強。"],["葉委員元之：當然，我覺得應該是要做到滴水不漏。我們來看一個東西，就是有關於郵包的部分，因為我看到民進黨的立委吳思瑤非常重視這一塊，但他主要都是針對中國，可是實際上有一些跨境電商，你們也可以去看一下，特別到底是哪一些東西是可以下訂，哪些東西是不能下訂，國人到現在搞不太清楚，連吳思瑤都搞不清楚。我看到吳思瑤在他的貼文上面講什麼淘寶的罐頭很多，但是實際上，請問一下署長，罐頭可不可以訂購？署長，罐頭可以訂購嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：罐頭目前是可以的。"],["葉委員元之：罐頭可以嘛！但吳思瑤不知道，他以為罐頭不可以，所以他講淘寶上面有罐頭，這些都要查。你看連執政黨立委，做過幹事長的都搞不清楚了，可見其他的國人對於到底哪一些可以透過電商購買或哪些不可以，現在大家還是很混亂。我現在秀幾個給你看，這是我們從跨境電商上面看到的，像左邊這個是校洞食品豬肉湯即食調理包，請問一下這個可以進來臺灣嗎？可以嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：其實這要看製程。"],["葉委員元之：要看製程？"],["杜署長麗華：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以光看這個圖片，署長並不能判斷嘛！你看你們兩個都要討論！"],["杜署長麗華：容我請亓副組長跟委員說明。"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，跟委員報告一下，罐頭食品現在樣態就是日新月異，所以其實……"],["葉委員元之：這個不是罐頭食品。"],["亓副組長隆祥：就是高溫滅菌罐製，我所謂的……"],["葉委員元之：我現在在問你，這個校洞食品豬肉湯即食調理包可不可以進來臺灣？我是問這個問題。"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，跟委員報告，如果這樣子的產品，它的F0值有大於等於3，達到一個商業滅菌的狀態，而且它的包裝是密閉式的……"],["葉委員元之：你不要跟我講原則，現在就是我要下單了，到底這個東西能不能進臺灣？我現在就問你嘛。"],["亓副組長隆祥：對，所以這樣子的產品，我們都會建議民眾，如果有商品的詳細資訊可以提供給我們，我們可以回復給他，他再下單。這樣可以幫消費者……"],["葉委員元之：所以你在電商上面看到這個東西，你覺得很好吃，你想要買，你無法判定，你都要先去問一下防檢署這可不可以進來才能確定，對不對？所以我問你右邊這兩個，你大概也不能回答了，不倒翁釜山豬血湯，這個可以進來臺灣嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：如果只看外包裝，沒有辦法直接百分之百……"],["葉委員元之：沒有辦法判定？簡報上有「含肉液態湯類」，這是指什麼？"],["亓副組長隆祥：這個就是如果它是湯類液態的含有肉品，而且它不是符合剛剛講的高溫滅菌罐製的定義……"],["葉委員元之：不是，你現在還是一直講原則，但是我現在講的是實際上消費者的狀況，消費者就是會看到這些東西，到底是可以下單還是不可以下單，他無從判定起，不是嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：對，所以我們……"],["葉委員元之：怎麼去解決這個問題？因為這就牽涉到後面假設他不小心下單進來，因為如果是人帶進來的，你們是有宣導，他進來之前，主動詢問，如果發現不可以，交出來是免受罰，對吧？"],["亓副組長隆祥：是。"],["葉委員元之：可是如果是透過電商下訂呢？一樣，就是在搞不清楚情況之下被查到了，他可以講他不知道，所以不受罰嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：報告委員，所以我們都會請電商把含肉的產品下架，我們也會鼓勵民眾，如果有疑問的話，可以跟防檢局詢問，我們會……"],["葉委員元之：你說請電商把含肉食品下架？"],["亓副組長隆祥：民眾想要……"],["葉委員元之：對，但是我現在就是在跨境電商上面抓的照片，它就是沒有下架、就是可以訂，現在消費者的問題就是不知道訂來之後、花錢了以後會不會被罰，要怎麼去解決這個問題？現在問題在這裡嘛！"],["亓副組長隆祥：是，所以我們剛才有報告，我們有一些預防性的措施，包括每天都有上這個電商平臺去做關鍵字搜尋，如果發現的話，我們會請電商即時下架……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！那就是有啊！你就是做不夠啊！不然我查到的這個，因為是國外的跨境電商，你怎麼讓它下架？"],["亓副組長隆祥：我們會持續跟無店面公會等團體溝通……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！你是副組長嗎？"],["亓副組長隆祥：是。"],["葉委員元之：亓副組長，你講的都是口號，我現在講的是實際面，我現在講的是民眾實際會遇到的問題，你講的都是口號、都是原則，但現在原則跟實際聽起來是有極大的落差，所以會有漏洞嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，因為這段時間對我們來講真的是很關鍵期，是不是我們重新正面表列，把哪一些產品不行整理出來，快速在我們相關的媒宣上披露，讓民眾可以比對，假設想更進一步了解，可以再直接跟我們聯繫。"],["葉委員元之：所以你現在要宣導說，如果大家在電商上看到連你們看照片都判斷不了的東西時，要主動詢問防檢局這可以買嗎？好，那請問一下，詢問這件事情方便嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：通常詢問要多久？比如我現在已經要下單了，只有10分鐘時間，在這10分鐘之內，我要打電話到防檢局詢問這可不可以，是嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：這樣子，我們來正面表列，讓民眾參考，但我要跟委員說明，一般高溫殺菌是121度，應該是沒有問題的。"],["葉委員元之：署長，我們現在在解決問題，這些原則我都知道，我現在講的是實務面嘛！你現在講的東西大家還是聽不懂，而我問的是實務面嘛！剛剛我就具體問你，消費者要下單到底可不可以，你們也無法回答，你只講一個原則，你講的原則大家都知道，可是那個原則放到實際上就無法操作，這就是有漏洞嘛！","再來，現在東西進來了，但你們裁罰的比例很低，是不是？根據資料，111年5月20號到114年10月16號郵件查獲1,320件，但只裁罰了9案，總共14件，對吧？主要原因是什麼？人手不足是不是？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，不是。"],["葉委員元之：因為我聽你們的人私下講是因為人手不足，無法仔細調查那個案件到底是什麼狀況。"],["杜署長麗華：喔！不是，這個我可能要說明一下，在態樣上，我先說明，進來的物品絕對全部銷毀，但我們是追……"],["葉委員元之：我知道有銷毀啦！我現在是說……"],["杜署長麗華：至於人的責任部分，因為我們在查訪當事人時，很多時候他們都會說是被冒名或不知情……"],["葉委員元之：多少？1,320件裡面有多少件說是被冒名的？多少件？"],["杜署長麗華：這個還要再……"],["葉委員元之：昨天你在別的委員會備詢時，就有很多委員問到這個問題，怎麼還答不出來呢？1,320件有多少件被冒名？總不可能大家都被冒名，臺灣現在被冒名那麼嚴重喔？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，這個是銷毀的，銷毀的已經有1,320件。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！那總共幾案？"],["杜署長麗華：目前裁罰的有9案。"],["葉委員元之：我知道裁罰9案，我是說總共……"],["杜署長麗華：訴訟中的有二十幾案。"],["葉委員元之：訴訟中的有二十幾案，還是很低啊！所以沒有辦法達到嚇阻作用。第一個，大家搞不清楚而下單，有很多是搞不清楚的；第二個，有可能是故意的，你們現在是裁罰故意的而已，搞不清楚跟過失的就不裁罰，對吧？"],["杜署長麗華：是、是。"],["葉委員元之：但是在搞不清楚的前端，就是我剛剛問你的，你們自己在備詢臺上也無法判斷，你都無法判斷，要消費者怎麼判斷？這一塊的問題要解決嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：好，那我們……"],["葉委員元之：如果消費者搞不清楚，花了錢，然後東西進來了，你也是讓民眾白花錢，他並不想違法，可是就因為搞不清楚，所以不小心觸法，東西他拿不到，但錢花了，我覺得這個問題要解決啦！"],["杜署長麗華：好，我們來蒐集相關樣態，做一些相對應的處置，看要如何再來加強，也保障到民眾的權益，但最重要的還是在防疫，不要成為破口或漏洞。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：好，謝謝，這個很嚴重，這個是有問題的。","接下來請張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員不在。","請陳瑩委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":486,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-7","speakers":["劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","林月琴","王正旭","楊曜","葉元之","陳瑩","蘇清泉","范雲"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、農業部、財政部、交通部、經濟部、數位發展部、海洋委員會海巡署\n就「如何精進海外小型包裹夾帶肉品之查緝與防堵，持續強化阻絕疫情於國門，同時優化國內後\n續對於非洲豬瘟防疫」提出專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員\n魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條\n條文修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)\n委員李昆澤等27 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十) 委員黃秀芳等21 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三\n十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛\n生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員\n沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職\n業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文\n修正草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)\n委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員郭昱晴等17人擬\n具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員王正旭等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(二)委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員莊瑞雄\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員林月琴等21人擬具「職業安全\n衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 委員林淑芬等21 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員徐富癸\n等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃捷等16人擬具「職業安全衛生\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 九) 委員蔡易餘等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1149002_00002"}}}