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{\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 642.815, \"end\": 642.975, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 642.975, \"end\": 643.135, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 643.135, \"end\": 643.275, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 643.275, \"end\": 644.196, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 644.196, \"end\": 644.676, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 644.676, \"end\": 645.077, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 645.077, \"end\": 645.197, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 645.197, \"end\": 645.257, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 645.257, \"end\": 645.497, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 645.497, \"end\": 645.857, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 645.857, \"end\": 646.237, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 646.237, \"end\": 646.377, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 646.377, \"end\": 646.517, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"疑\", \"start\": 646.517, \"end\": 646.538, \"score\": 0.026}, {\"word\": \"慮\"}]}, {\"start\": 647.778, \"end\": 676.802, \"text\": \"謝謝委員 這個提議我覺得應該很好好 謝謝院長所以我想這一個部分其實我們要的是整體的稅務能夠如實真實的編列在預算當中讓我們在立法院可以好好的來審查而不是用這樣的一個方式讓我們覺得看到預算社的時候嚇一跳短估那麼多然後告訴我們幫軍人加薪300億沒錢幫警消的50億沒錢其實你只要把短估的估回來是有辦法做到的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 647.778, \"end\": 648.239, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 648.239, \"end\": 648.459, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 648.459, \"end\": 648.739, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 648.739, \"end\": 649.14, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 649.14, \"end\": 649.28, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 849.989, \"end\": 850.229, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 850.229, \"end\": 850.389, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 850.389, \"end\": 850.669, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 850.669, \"end\": 850.729, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 850.729, \"end\": 850.789, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 850.789, \"end\": 850.989, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 850.989, \"end\": 851.129, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 851.129, \"end\": 851.529, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 851.529, \"end\": 851.729, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 851.729, \"end\": 851.909, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 851.909, \"end\": 852.29, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 852.29, \"end\": 852.45, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 852.45, \"end\": 852.59, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 852.59, \"end\": 852.85, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 852.85, \"end\": 853.03, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 853.03, \"end\": 853.29, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 853.29, \"end\": 853.47, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 853.47, \"end\": 853.63, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 853.63, \"end\": 853.83, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 853.83, \"end\": 853.85, \"score\": 0.092}]}, {\"start\": 854.31, \"end\": 876.044, \"text\": \"所以其實已經超過這個數額那最後一年確實就像院長剛剛所說的一開始的計畫會比較慢那後面我們會逐步來加強那有一些像內政部的部分等一下應該部長也會講跟地方政府的合作也要看地方政府申請的狀況對 但是您的這種編列的方式在最後一年七成耶\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 854.31, \"end\": 854.43, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 854.43, \"end\": 854.51, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 854.51, \"end\": 854.85, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 854.85, \"end\": 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\"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 858.733, \"end\": 858.913, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 858.913, \"end\": 859.233, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 859.233, \"end\": 859.353, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 859.353, \"end\": 859.493, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 859.493, \"end\": 860.174, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"慢\", \"start\": 860.174, \"end\": 860.674, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 860.674, \"end\": 860.814, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 860.814, \"end\": 861.034, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 861.034, \"end\": 861.335, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 861.335, \"end\": 861.495, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"逐\", \"start\": 861.495, \"end\": 861.675, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 861.675, \"end\": 861.975, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 861.975, \"end\": 862.655, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 862.655, \"end\": 862.775, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 862.775, \"end\": 862.936, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 862.936, \"end\": 863.016, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 863.016, \"end\": 863.456, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 863.456, \"end\": 863.796, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 863.796, \"end\": 863.976, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 863.976, \"end\": 864.116, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 864.116, \"end\": 864.256, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 864.256, \"end\": 864.396, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 864.396, \"end\": 864.737, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 864.737, \"end\": 865.057, \"score\": 0.866}, 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{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 869.079, \"end\": 869.119, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 869.119, \"end\": 869.299, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 869.299, \"end\": 869.46, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 869.46, \"end\": 869.56, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 869.56, \"end\": 869.72, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 869.72, \"end\": 869.88, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 869.88, \"end\": 870.02, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 870.02, \"end\": 870.38, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 870.38, \"end\": 871.641, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 871.641, \"end\": 871.821, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 871.821, \"end\": 872.001, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 872.001, \"end\": 872.341, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 872.341, \"end\": 873.002, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"編\"}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 873.002, \"end\": 873.162, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 873.162, \"end\": 873.342, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 873.342, \"end\": 873.562, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 873.562, \"end\": 873.742, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 873.742, \"end\": 873.982, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 873.982, \"end\": 874.163, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 874.163, \"end\": 874.323, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 874.323, \"end\": 874.483, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 874.483, \"end\": 875.463, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 875.463, \"end\": 875.764, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 875.764, \"end\": 876.024, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"耶\", \"start\": 876.024, \"end\": 876.044, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 876.96, \"end\": 903.277, \"text\": \"一般我們在做這樣的一個連續性的計畫不可能在最後一年編列七成的預算而且請跟院長看一下這個數字我可能要回去再查核一下因為實際上我記得明年很像不只是這個數額前幾年執行的沒有這麼少跟委員報告一下其實我們跟地方政府的合作都非常的好那地方政府如果送上來之後我們需要有時間去做規劃跟考核那請問一下部長這個數字正不正確你們前三年是編列37億對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 876.96, \"end\": 877.08, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 877.08, \"end\": 877.26, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 877.26, \"end\": 877.42, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 877.42, \"end\": 877.58, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 877.58, \"end\": 877.901, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 877.901, \"end\": 877.961, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 877.961, \"end\": 878.501, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 878.501, \"end\": 878.661, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 878.661, \"end\": 879.382, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1108.928, \"end\": 1109.068, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1109.068, \"end\": 1109.188, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 1109.188, \"end\": 1109.308, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1109.308, \"end\": 1109.328, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 1110.209, \"end\": 1131.526, \"text\": \"那院長你就是說我們這筆情人的這個不需要四百億囉因為你都是地方自己處理就好啦原來的計畫是有那這跟地方怎麼去談合作未來可能用不同的所以我想告訴院長的是這個部分我覺得用才化法的這個把五級大家全部都變成一級對於本來五級的這個限制沒有第五級全部變成一級啊你說的可能是苗栗縣啊現在全部都是啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1110.209, \"end\": 1110.329, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1110.329, \"end\": 1110.67, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1110.67, \"end\": 1110.93, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1110.93, \"end\": 1111.13, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1111.13, \"end\": 1111.35, 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{\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 1127.082, \"end\": 1127.242, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 1127.242, \"end\": 1127.503, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1127.503, \"end\": 1127.623, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1127.623, \"end\": 1127.743, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1127.743, \"end\": 1127.903, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 1127.903, \"end\": 1128.203, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1128.203, \"end\": 1128.343, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1128.343, \"end\": 1128.603, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1128.603, \"end\": 1128.724, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1128.724, \"end\": 1129.004, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1129.004, \"end\": 1129.424, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1129.424, \"end\": 1129.644, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1129.644, \"end\": 1129.704, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1129.704, \"end\": 1129.824, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1129.824, \"end\": 1129.904, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1129.904, \"end\": 1130.045, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"苗\", \"start\": 1130.045, \"end\": 1130.265, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"栗\", \"start\": 1130.265, \"end\": 1130.445, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1130.445, \"end\": 1130.705, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1130.705, \"end\": 1130.885, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1130.885, \"end\": 1131.085, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1131.085, \"end\": 1131.185, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1131.185, \"end\": 1131.346, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1131.346, \"end\": 1131.506, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1131.506, \"end\": 1131.526, \"score\": 0.035}]}, {\"start\": 1132.266, \"end\": 1151.152, \"text\": \"因為大家都變成正的啦全部都說你們因為財劃法之後都變成全部都變一級啊是不是請院長能夠我們可以把財劃法的分級表新的送給委員看那最後我再請教一下就請院長再把資料傳給登本辦然後再看一下就是這個有關\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1132.266, \"end\": 1132.446, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1132.446, \"end\": 1132.586, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1132.586, \"end\": 1132.826, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1132.826, \"end\": 1133.006, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1133.006, \"end\": 1133.246, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 1133.246, \"end\": 1133.506, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1133.506, \"end\": 1133.607, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1133.607, \"end\": 1133.987, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1133.987, \"end\": 1134.167, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1134.167, \"end\": 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\"法\", \"start\": 1141.849, \"end\": 1142.149, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1142.149, \"end\": 1142.269, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1142.269, \"end\": 1142.589, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 1142.589, \"end\": 1143.069, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 1143.069, \"end\": 1143.229, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1143.229, \"end\": 1143.329, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 1143.329, \"end\": 1143.57, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1143.57, \"end\": 1143.83, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1143.83, \"end\": 1144.71, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1144.71, \"end\": 1144.87, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1144.87, \"end\": 1144.99, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1144.99, \"end\": 1145.15, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1145.15, 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\"那根據海委會113年3月因為他只統計到3月底啦我們可以看到這類的無牌照的小船的數量已經達到到113年3月就已經1442艘發生海難的事故也大概高達44件請問院長喔這種免牌照的小船到底歸誰管\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1218.047, \"end\": 1218.167, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 1218.167, \"end\": 1218.428, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 1218.428, \"end\": 1218.608, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1218.608, \"end\": 1220.049, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1220.049, \"end\": 1220.61, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 1220.61, \"end\": 1220.83, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1220.83, \"end\": 1220.91, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1220.91, \"end\": 1221.091, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 1221.091, \"end\": 1221.411, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 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{\"start\": 1273.273, \"end\": 1291.685, \"text\": \"因為他就到處亂停他完全沒有任何的一個就是比如說管制啊或者是說任何的要求他就是他想他自己想要他想要有他就有他想要出港他就出廣他想要出去就出去有這樣的一個狀況我們來看一下一個影片好不好請院長看一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1273.273, \"end\": 1273.493, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1273.493, \"end\": 1273.614, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1273.614, \"end\": 1273.754, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1273.754, \"end\": 1274.294, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"亂\"}, {\"word\": \"停\", \"start\": 1274.294, \"end\": 1274.474, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1274.474, \"end\": 1274.694, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 1274.694, \"end\": 1274.894, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1274.894, \"end\": 1275.114, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1275.114, \"end\": 1275.395, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1275.395, \"end\": 1275.835, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": 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\"長\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1532.822, \"end\": 1533.523, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"慎\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1533.523, \"end\": 1533.743, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 1533.743, \"end\": 1533.943, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 1533.943, \"end\": 1534.183, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"禁\", \"start\": 1534.183, \"end\": 1534.343, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 1534.343, \"end\": 1534.423, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 1534.423, \"end\": 1534.443, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"養\"}, {\"word\": \"豬\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,670 --> 00:00:02,672\n謝謝韓院長我們請卓文泰卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:30,789 --> 00:00:47,809\n學員好院長好院長我想請您先看一下這張稅入預算跟決算的一個比較表我們可以從這個表刻可以清楚的看到一個現象就是中央政府的稅入的這個決算數長期而且顯著的高於預算數\n\n3\n00:00:48,490 --> 00:01:06,844\n也就是中央政府其實每年的收入都被刻意的低估所以從這幾年的這個預算數跟決算數的相比您可以看到平均都高出3300億到4400億大概最多可以到將近20%所以這應該不是偶然的誤差而是長期制度性的這個低估\n\n4\n00:01:07,364 --> 00:01:31,724\n所以導致外界都沒有辦法準確的掌握這個國家財政的一個真相喔那這種做法呢就是可以製造出一種財政吃緊的一個假象讓政府有理由舉債啦或者是凍結部分的支出那又能夠在年度這個執行的之後用超徵或稅入高於預期的一個名義靈活的運用這些隱藏的收入所以請問院長造成政府稅入低估的原因是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:32,344 --> 00:01:50,590\n那這樣的一個故意的低估這些預留的款項到底是要保留給哪些特定的項目呢報告委員稅入的決算數會比稅入的預算數高就不是超增兩個字是我們的時增數超過我們的預算數請問一下這樣子長期的被低估的狀況在115年稅入我們在編訂的時候已經請財政部能夠\n\n6\n00:01:55,854 --> 00:02:14,144\n横租过去的经验以及现在的经济的发展跟明年的预测已经大幅提高税入的一些115年度的这个税入的预算数其实比去年还低啊因为有两只有两兆8623亿啊第一是因为台化法的关系你挪出去的4000多亿才低的\n\n7\n00:02:14,624 --> 00:02:42,265\n那加上這個部分的話您可以看一下我們現在看到的就是說其實過去這從110年到113年來看到的其實就是有低估的大概將近20%左右請問一下部長這是什麼原因跟委員報告我們的預算數在籌編到最後的執行完畢大概將近有兩年的時間這兩年的時間其實有許多變化的因素但是這個變化好像也太大了\n\n8\n00:02:43,510 --> 00:03:11,359\n而且長期不是說偶爾一次那就是可能是財政部的低估的能力109年就沒有達到預算數109年的時候我現在是請教你110年到113年甚至到114年所以其實這個是會讓人家感受到就是說我們是刻意的去低估而造成我們沒有辦法好好的用這樣子一個財政的一個技術的一個會計技術來匡批我們立法院\n\n9\n00:03:12,159 --> 00:03:16,577\n就會有這樣的一個狀況那當然我們再看一下下一張表格請院長再看一下\n\n10\n00:03:17,611 --> 00:03:35,225\n在115年度的中央政府的總預算的稅入來圓別的一個編列情況喔就是您可以看一下稅客收入是預算數是2到4807億那紅色框框的部分呢就包含了所得稅、證交稅、關稅、貨物稅、營業稅加起來是2到4104億那請問一下703億跑到哪裡去了為什麼會出現這樣的落差請問院長\n\n11\n00:03:46,735 --> 00:04:00,911\n你看喔你說客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億可是你下面只有五個項目嘛然後所以加起來是兩兆四千一百零四億少了七百零三億請問怎麼會出現這樣的落差請院長回答\n\n12\n00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:14,915\n計算的問題部長再說明可能連計算都計算錯吧一定是我們是合計數一定是各個稅務的相加呀對啊所以我現在加給你看啊結果看到只有兩兆4104億啊就少了703億啊請問是為什麼\n\n13\n00:04:18,479 --> 00:04:31,991\n我們編的是內地稅是2兆4807億的稅客對啊是啊那這你下面就是編了這幾個這個分項嘛那到底是為什麼會有這樣的隱匿稅入的一個預算呢是到底是什麼樣造成這樣的一個問題\n\n14\n00:04:34,436 --> 00:04:48,821\n稅務裡面包含的有稅客收入我現在講的就是稅客收入稅客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億這個部分應該是全部的合計數可是這五項加起來只有兩兆四千一百零四億你的項目是不是涵蓋全部呢\n\n15\n00:04:50,322 --> 00:05:04,590\n那為什麼會出現這樣我們是在依據你們的這個中央政府稅務來源別的編列情形表喔表三之二您可以看得到所以我們現在看到的狀況就是那是所得稅證交稅關稅貨物稅營業稅\n\n16\n00:05:12,675 --> 00:05:27,267\n我告訴你為什麼你知道嗎因為本來稅客收入是有九項你們只列了五項少了四項所以才會有這樣缺少的一個狀況所以這樣看起來你在編列預算的時候是不是有這種盈利這個收入的一個狀況那為什麼我們拿到的預算表是這樣咧\n\n17\n00:05:31,030 --> 00:05:57,560\n我不知道您的預算表上當然是我們在預算書看過去哪裡拿到的所以可能請院長針對這部分因為我看到這樣的預算表的時候我就覺得不可能是計算錯嘛當然要不然我要去哪裡編就是說這個部分我覺得當在編列上因為事實上如果我想有在銀行服務的人都知道少一塊錢都不能下班都不能都不能說自己拿一塊錢出來補\n\n18\n00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:11,755\n更何況是少那麼多錢所以這也很明顯的隱匿的一個狀況我們真的是有九項我剛剛就跟您講了應該有九項可是你列了五項那到底是什麼樣的原因我們再來看看\n\n19\n00:06:13,297 --> 00:06:37,488\n我們再來看看下一個就是我們有把115年度的稅務預算跟113年度的稅務決算進行比較因為114年度還沒出來所以為什麼我也拿這兩年比較是因為114年度的經濟成長率預估有5%115年度目前你們也預估有2.8%所以兩邊加起來可能會有7.8%的一個成長率理論上經濟成長了\n\n20\n00:06:39,389 --> 00:06:55,049\n那應該是我們的這個稅入應該會同步提高那所以說呢差了7.8億可是我們兩個一比較呢你可以看到目前在115年度的總預算當中有9個項目刻意被低估你可以看到這9個項目\n\n21\n00:06:56,391 --> 00:07:20,612\n就是移政稅低估36億關稅短估140億貨物稅短估367億證交稅短估380億證交稅短估25億罰款及賠償收入短估80億規費收入短估18億財政收入短估104億營業營餘跟收入短估164億其他收入短估260億整個加起來的預估短估1574億\n\n22\n00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:47,537\n那請問一下在這個部分我們其實這種分箱低估收入的這種方式會讓我們整個的這個整體的財政規模會被人為的縮小也是對我們這個財政紀律的一個扭曲所以預算應該要實際反映國家的一個真實的狀況而不是刻意營造這種好像財政吃緊的一個狀況那請問一下短估的這一千照理說你經濟成長了7.8%不可能還減少1574億\n\n23\n00:07:52,521 --> 00:08:04,770\n所以這個短估的狀況到底是為什麼這樣看起來會讓我們覺得說好像是可以合理化的舉債或壓縮薪資甚至就是讓我們地方的補助變少那請問一下這樣子的一個狀況是為什麼\n\n24\n00:08:06,878 --> 00:08:27,891\n請部長說明當初我們這邊的時候我們逐項都有經過跟部長的討論跟比對那請部長詳細說明對跟委員報告各個稅務我們都有不同的一個計算的基礎那也要看往年的一個收入情形還有要扣除大額特殊案件譬如說像疑政稅的話如果那一年有大額的計算所以這個要按\n\n25\n00:08:28,271 --> 00:08:50,080\n平常的來算我是想請教院長就是說照理說114115年他經濟成長是應該是7你們預估7.8%但是呢我們的這個你們現在預估的稅率反而反而減少而且低估了這就1000光這幾項9項就低估了1574億了所以這到底是什麼樣的原因\n\n26\n00:08:51,906 --> 00:09:13,916\n沒有到那麼多我們的稅務沒有稅少到這麼少啊而且我們的中手稅是增加的除了扣掉那個才那個才化法扣除以外整合是增加的對扣除才化我沒有加到這個部分啊那是在營業稅的部分嘛3544億現在變296億我也沒有講這個部分啊我現在指的是說你稅客收入是兩兆\n\n27\n00:09:16,457 --> 00:09:38,724\n預算數是2到8623億那針對這部分你就是短估了這些項目短估1574億所以說如果有了這1574億不管是軍人加薪的300億元或者是警消退休金額的這個退休金的這個大概抓50億元還有地方的一些補助其實有這1574億都可以做到啊\n\n28\n00:09:39,907 --> 00:10:06,037\n跟委員報告沒有所謂的短估那各個數據怎麼估算出來我們可以逐項跟委員做詳細的說明院長我想是不是應該要把一個我們這樣子的稅務預測的模型而且把短估的部分補正在預算當中因為不合理啦就是我的明明經濟成長這兩年加起來是增加了7.8%可是我的預算居然會減少1500多億這是非常不合理的\n\n29\n00:10:06,497 --> 00:10:30,719\n所以說是不是可以請院長能夠立即檢討我們115年度的這樣子的一個稅入預測的一個模型然後把短估補正於預算中委員如果從我們送的預算書上面來看到有這樣的數字的變化心中會有說疑慮那是難免所以也希望我們未來在審查預算的過程當中能夠讓財政部跟其他部合理的充分的跟委員做說明\n\n30\n00:10:32,288 --> 00:10:46,538\n這部分我也要拜託院長未來如果有像這樣子的稅務預算跟決算的差距超過3%的話是不是能夠就提出一個差異說明報告送到立法院來讓我們在審預算的時候不會有這麼多的疑慮\n\n31\n00:10:47,778 --> 00:11:16,802\n謝謝委員這個提議我覺得應該很好好謝謝院長所以我想這一個部分其實我們要的是整體的稅務能夠如實真實的編列在預算當中讓我們在立法院可以好好的來審查而不是用這樣的一個方式讓我們覺得看到預算社的時候嚇一跳短估那麼多然後告訴我們幫軍人加薪300億沒錢幫警消的50億沒錢其實你只要把短估的估回來是有辦法做到的\n\n32\n00:11:17,899 --> 00:11:33,635\n這部分再請院長能夠請台北部門當時主項都有討論不至於出現短估的現象那這個問題我們會在審查預算目前看起來就是這樣他都應該是有過分析跟預估的所以將來在審查預算會充分向委員報告\n\n33\n00:11:35,316 --> 00:11:55,466\n來做這個質詢其實我做了很多的準備所以也把這列出來也跟您詳細的分析所以我相信剛剛講的這個應該我覺得在這個方面有很大的一個問題所以如果真的隱匿這樣子的話來欺騙立法院的話我們省這個預算就沒有什麼意義了不會欺騙立法院對那所以說請\n\n34\n00:11:56,606 --> 00:12:17,527\n請院長針對這個部分一定要審慎的嚴格的來去做一個這樣的一個把關我們會尊重剛剛委員那樣的提議未來做強化強力的說明謝謝那另外呢我們下一個議題是我們可以看到就是其實在2021年CNN在講說我們台灣是行人地獄的時候我們其實我相信大家都想要做這樣的一個\n\n35\n00:12:19,421 --> 00:12:38,661\n都想做這樣一個改善可是今年在8月31的時候德國媒體又出現了這樣一篇報導他說台灣每年因為交通事故死傷的人數超過美國911的恐攻的死亡總數所以也提醒外國的遊客來台灣的時候要三思\n\n36\n00:12:39,542 --> 00:13:05,473\n但這是非常沉重而且非常羞辱的一個國際評價那我也知道我們想要改善這樣的一個狀況所以呢行政院有核定了一個永續提升人行安全計畫400億那這400億呢其中在這個公務局有140億那在國土署有260億總共是這樣那我可以請這個院長看一下嗎他的經費分配數您看一下\n\n37\n00:13:07,216 --> 00:13:29,127\n在交通部負責140億前三年只編列38億剩下超過102億大概是超過七成全部集中在最後一年國土署在前三年只編列100億剩下159億在最後一年編列大概也超過六成\n\n38\n00:13:29,787 --> 00:13:52,245\n那我想請教一下行人安全計劃有六七成的預算是在最後一年才執行請問這樣子的一個預算分配合理嗎?院長請您先回答部長先說明一下我們的逐年計劃好跟委員報告好院長我先請教您針對我剛講的這樣在最後一年編列了六跟七成的部分您覺得合理嗎?迎您這樣直接的\n\n39\n00:13:52,705 --> 00:14:13,850\n是我要分析他的逐年計畫因為一開始一定是比較少那中間一定有些規劃的過程那但最後一年是七成喔那就是說請部長說明一下最後一年的執行力到底能不能把它完成起來報告員其實我們交通部尤其公路局他們在執行的那個面向都超過這些預算啦我們有一些是用自己的公路局裡面的預算下去做\n\n40\n00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:36,044\n所以其實已經超過這個數額那最後一年確實就像院長剛剛所說的一開始的計畫會比較慢那後面我們會逐步來加強那有一些像內政部的部分等一下應該部長也會講跟地方政府的合作也要看地方政府申請的狀況對但是您的這種編列的方式在最後一年七成耶\n\n41\n00:14:36,960 --> 00:15:03,277\n一般我們在做這樣的一個連續性的計畫不可能在最後一年編列七成的預算而且請跟院長看一下這個數字我可能要回去再查核一下因為實際上我記得明年很像不只是這個數額前幾年執行的沒有這麼少跟委員報告一下其實我們跟地方政府的合作都非常的好那地方政府如果送上來之後我們需要有時間去做規劃跟考核那請問一下部長這個數字正不正確你們前三年是編列37億對不對\n\n42\n00:15:05,083 --> 00:15:26,336\n有一点我需要再做确认院长其实有这样子的一个编列的方式只会让我们合理的怀疑第一个是不是行政效率太差所以都要集中在最后一年要不然就是116年是什么时间你知道吗就是总统大选的前一年\n\n43\n00:15:27,546 --> 00:15:48,755\n所以讓人也合理的懷疑是不是要用在總統那裡的最後一年用這樣的方式來綁裝用這樣的錢來綁裝否則完全不合理啊我們大部分的預算編列在最後一年那請問是哪個天才想出來這樣子的一個方式來編這樣的預算您的懷疑我們會做合理的說明我請交通部內政部\n\n44\n00:15:49,315 --> 00:16:00,789\n用這個數據跟委員做合理的說明我們地方政府確實需要有時間跟中央政府一起來合作這個跟綁裝不綁裝完全沒有關係那是不是可以在這邊請院長具體的承諾絕對不會用這筆錢來做政治綁裝不會\n\n45\n00:16:05,715 --> 00:16:22,233\n那院長您今天具體承諾那我們就到時候來看看那當然這個部分我希望院長還有一個重要的問題我看到的這個部分就是這樣的一個感受為什麼會在最後一年那當然也請你們提出合理的說明\n\n46\n00:16:23,534 --> 00:16:38,121\n然後另外就是我們現在看到的就是還有最近啊有很多地以前本來我們一些縣市政府都有在爭取這些人行道的一個改善的尤其是在學童在這個校園的附近最近呢大家不敢申請了你知道為什麼嗎院長知道嗎為什麼最近大家不敢申請不敢申請了為什麼\n\n47\n00:16:45,629 --> 00:17:08,115\n因為是不是未來的錢回到地方去了不是是因為我們現在不管是中南部像我來自雲林縣雲林縣以前是五級的這個財力分級的縣市所以他只要自籌12%現在因為財化法的關係全部都變成一級了所以他現在要自籌80幾%你說怎麼做\n\n48\n00:17:08,855 --> 00:17:35,300\n因為財化法就是把錢分給地方啊這樣你沒有辦法做啦為什麼他們就不會再來爭如果財化法把錢分給地方要中央負擔80%中央也沒有辦法做啊那你編列這400億要做什麼跟地方還是合作啊對嘛所以你就是要讓地方來申請嘛分擔的比例要調整其實我擔憂的是一個問題你知道嗎就是您看到的就是越窮的地方越沒有人行道越弱勢的孩子越危險為什麼因為本來財力五級的縣市\n\n49\n00:17:38,462 --> 00:17:53,628\n他變成要變成一級的縣市所以他的要自籌八成多的一個他這個變化不是沒有原因的因為他有多比較多的統籌分配稅款他才會升級我現在是請教院長那請問你剛說要跟地方合作這400億那代表這400億不用那麼多囉\n\n50\n00:17:54,508 --> 00:18:10,265\n可以砍掉一些囉所以我剛才只是要跟你們表達就是說因為這些比較窮的縣市它本來財力五級的縣市它就是因為有需要所以它才會用這樣的一個方式那如果我們現在把它回歸到說好它現在通常變一級的窮的還是窮啊\n\n51\n00:18:11,747 --> 00:18:29,328\n那你說你真正有分配要給因為財化法分配給他們的數字真的有那麼多嗎因為你一般補助款你又拉回來啦所以於雲林縣來說其實我算過他今年度還少了28.3億一般補助款的部分中央地方全縣劃分的事情現在正由國發會還有政府院長\n\n52\n00:18:30,209 --> 00:18:51,526\n那院長你就是說我們這筆情人的這個不需要四百億囉因為你都是地方自己處理就好啦原來的計畫是有那這跟地方怎麼去談合作未來可能用不同的所以我想告訴院長的是這個部分我覺得用才化法的這個把五級大家全部都變成一級對於本來五級的這個限制沒有第五級全部變成一級啊你說的可能是苗栗縣啊現在全部都是啊\n\n53\n00:18:52,266 --> 00:19:11,152\n因為大家都變成正的啦全部都說你們因為財劃法之後都變成全部都變一級啊是不是請院長能夠我們可以把財劃法的分級表新的送給委員看那最後我再請教一下就請院長再把資料傳給登本辦然後再看一下就是這個有關\n\n54\n00:19:12,813 --> 00:19:38,553\n我們面對中國大陸三無的船就是無船名無船舶證書無船級港的登記政府的處理態度是什麼就是我們面對中國大陸的三無船請問政府的處理態度是什麼船級的登記我們現在我們在講嘛中國大陸都一堆三無船來就忽然跑到我們的海域來啦有所謂的黑名單有黑名單我們會拒絕他禁止他進到我們的這個\n\n55\n00:19:42,970 --> 00:20:00,996\n管轄範圍裡面那遇到三無船你們會不會強力取締如果他強力當然是進到海域來我們當然要強力取締你們會強力取締嗎好我現在來跟跟您探討一下就台灣沿岸最近有出現了這個一種也是三無的這個船就是波特船\n\n56\n00:20:02,281 --> 00:20:17,147\n他只要裝上動力馬達就可以釣魚載客不用船舶檢查也不用進出港登記在任何岸邊都可以自由進出也不用裝設AIS然後在海上神出鬼沒這就是標準的三無船不但危險而且還有國安的一個問題\n\n57\n00:20:18,047 --> 00:20:37,389\n那根據海委會113年3月因為他只統計到3月底啦我們可以看到這類的無牌照的小船的數量已經達到到113年3月就已經1442艘發生海難的事故也大概高達44件請問院長喔這種免牌照的小船到底歸誰管\n\n58\n00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:52,335\n我們可以看到喔漁業捕撈算農業部休閒觀光算交通部國安管制算海委會運動發展算運動部請問一下院長你覺得這個這個波特船應該歸誰管\n\n59\n00:20:55,855 --> 00:21:11,572\n這個最近海委會有增加的一些設備他們對這種小型船的查詢能力是增強的所以剛剛這裡是流布島你沒辦法查詢因為他沒有裝AIS啊所以你根本沒有辦法查啊那這種波特船我相信這個可以停在哪裡你知道嗎沒辦法\n\n60\n00:21:13,273 --> 00:21:31,685\n因為他就到處亂停他完全沒有任何的一個就是比如說管制啊或者是說任何的要求他就是他想他自己想要他想要有他就有他想要出港他就出廣他想要出去就出去有這樣的一個狀況我們來看一下一個影片好不好請院長看一下\n\n61\n00:21:41,638 --> 00:21:46,686\n整個海都黃了啦看魚啦這樣啦看這樣釣多少啦\n\n62\n00:21:57,368 --> 00:22:19,176\n我們剛剛好這影片可以聽一下我們剛剛看到的是滿滿的海上都是波特船在那邊釣魚好那結果看到滿滿的漁獲那你覺得他有沒有可能就是拿來販賣呢絕對有可能因為他根本沒有管理結果剛剛講的剛剛請院長請教的就是說這個到底應該由誰管院長可以先回答我嗎剛講的這個\n\n63\n00:22:21,363 --> 00:22:43,853\n波特船應該由誰來管這樣看起來他的行為是一種新興的行業不只喔很多年了不是新興的行業這可能不在你剛剛講的四個分類當中我們應該外部會來研究看看第一個基於國家的安全這已經研究很多年了國家的安全海域的安全走私這個已經院長我今天會提就是因為這個一般的漁民一直反映這已經研究很多年了\n\n64\n00:22:44,093 --> 00:23:03,230\n那院長可不可以具體在這邊給我們承諾就是說在一個月內你們就可以把這個到底由誰管的這個主管機關能夠把它這個訂定下來好不好否則的話這樣一過去可能又是好多年了委員我們跨部會來加速進行這個管理制度可不可以在一個月內提出來目前已經有十個縣市政府他們有納管波特傳\n\n65\n00:23:04,211 --> 00:23:25,241\n基本上我這邊想要請教院長可不可以在一個月之內建出來到底由誰管好嗎我會請我們負責國安的政委來協助來協調各部會我們跨部會來主持組成一個會議來討論第一個無法可管第二個就是說我們可以看到就是波特船你可以看到他幾乎所有都沒有\n\n66\n00:23:26,281 --> 00:23:47,730\n專法納管沒有登錄沒有船編沒有漁獲回報沒有入出安全沒有裝設AS沒有這還有一個什麼問題你知道嗎就是它有可能利用這樣的一個波特船因為它沒有AS嘛它其實你偵測不到它可以利用來偷渡跟走私院長知道嗎我們之前在討論到船舶法跟商港法的修法過程已經有吧這個是我也\n\n67\n00:23:49,532 --> 00:24:01,209\n山無船把它列進去的現在事實上也影響於有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是有辦法可以一個月內嗎否則的話一過去明年我要問一樣的問題\n\n68\n00:24:07,399 --> 00:24:21,520\n好謝謝院長那就一個月內請你們再訂出第一個訂出組織機關第二個應該要競速訂管理專法可以嗎就剛剛講了其實沒有很多法不然船舶法各方面的法但是針對波特船這樣子的一個\n\n69\n00:24:22,541 --> 00:24:38,655\n目前無法可管的這樣是不是可以訂定一個管理專法就比較需要更多的時間來考量但是以目前的機制來講我們已經有跨部會的好那就一個月內確定組織單位然後之後我們再來研究專法可以嗎我們已經送納月來審議了那如果這個部分我們需要在廣義定義上來做或是加一些強化的措施我們就來處理\n\n70\n00:24:48,243 --> 00:25:07,648\n好,謝謝院長,希望能夠把波特傳這個亂象真正的現在把它剔除。那另外最後一個問題就是要請教你就是有關非洲豬瘟的,因為其實本席在最近有收到很多的養豬業者的陳情,他們都希望能夠禁用廚餘養豬。\n\n71\n00:25:09,668 --> 00:25:34,443\n那當然目前發生的這樣的一個狀況剛剛我有聽到院長還有部長的一些回覆目前好像還沒有打算要禁用處於養豬那當然這也可能就是七年多前那時候的賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長擬擔任秘書長的時候的一個決定但是我覺得這個對養豬業者真的非常重要所以還是覺得院長應該要審慎來去思考禁用處於養豬\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n670\t2672\t謝謝韓院長我們請卓文泰卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n30789\t47809\t學員好 院長好 院長我想請您先看一下這張稅入預算跟決算的一個比較表我們可以從這個表刻可以清楚的看到一個現象就是中央政府的稅入的這個決算數長期而且顯著的高於預算數\n48490\t66844\t也就是中央政府其實每年的收入都被刻意的低估所以從這幾年的這個預算數跟決算數的相比您可以看到平均都高出3300億到4400億大概最多可以到將近20%所以這應該不是偶然的誤差而是長期制度性的這個低估\n67364\t91724\t所以導致外界都沒有辦法準確的掌握這個國家財政的一個真相喔那這種做法呢就是可以製造出一種財政吃緊的一個假象讓政府有理由舉債啦或者是凍結部分的支出那又能夠在年度這個執行的之後用超徵或稅入高於預期的一個名義靈活的運用這些隱藏的收入所以請問院長造成政府稅入低估的原因是什麼\n92344\t110590\t那這樣的一個故意的低估這些預留的款項到底是要保留給哪些特定的項目呢報告委員 稅入的決算數會比稅入的預算數高就不是超增兩個字是我們的時增數超過我們的預算數請問一下這樣子長期的被低估的狀況在115年稅入我們在編訂的時候已經請財政部能夠\n115854\t134144\t横租过去的经验以及现在的经济的发展跟明年的预测已经大幅提高税入的一些115年度的这个税入的预算数其实比去年还低啊因为有两只有两兆8623亿啊第一是因为台化法的关系你挪出去的4000多亿才低的\n134624\t162265\t那加上這個部分的話您可以看一下我們現在看到的就是說其實過去這從110年到113年來看到的其實就是有低估的大概將近20%左右請問一下部長這是什麼原因跟委員報告我們的預算數在籌編到最後的執行完畢大概將近有兩年的時間這兩年的時間其實有許多變化的因素但是這個變化好像也太大了\n163510\t191359\t而且長期不是說偶爾一次那就是可能是財政部的低估的能力109年就沒有達到預算數109年的時候我現在是請教你110年到113年甚至到114年所以其實這個是會讓人家感受到就是說我們是刻意的去低估而造成我們沒有辦法好好的用這樣子一個財政的一個技術的一個會計技術來匡批我們立法院\n192159\t196577\t就會有這樣的一個狀況那當然我們再看一下下一張表格請院長再看一下\n197611\t215225\t在115年度的中央政府的總預算的稅入來圓別的一個編列情況喔就是您可以看一下稅客收入是預算數是2到4807億那紅色框框的部分呢就包含了所得稅、證交稅、關稅、貨物稅、營業稅加起來是2到4104億那請問一下703億跑到哪裡去了為什麼會出現這樣的落差請問院長\n226735\t240911\t你看喔 你說客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億可是你下面只有五個項目嘛然後所以加起來是兩兆四千一百零四億少了七百零三億請問怎麼會出現這樣的落差請院長回答\n242800\t254915\t計算的問題部長再說明可能連計算都計算錯吧一定是我們是合計數一定是各個稅務的相加呀對啊所以我現在加給你看啊結果看到只有兩兆4104億啊就少了703億啊請問是為什麼\n258479\t271991\t我們編的是內地稅是2兆4807億的稅客對啊 是啊那這你下面就是編了這幾個這個分項嘛那到底是為什麼會有這樣的隱匿稅入的一個預算呢是到底是什麼樣造成這樣的一個問題\n274436\t288821\t稅務裡面包含的有稅客收入我現在講的就是稅客收入稅客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億這個部分應該是全部的合計數可是這五項加起來只有兩兆四千一百零四億你的項目是不是涵蓋全部呢\n290322\t304590\t那為什麼會出現這樣 我們是在依據你們的這個中央政府稅務來源別的編列情形表喔 表三之二 您可以看得到所以我們現在看到的狀況就是那是所得稅 證交稅 關稅 貨物稅 營業稅\n312675\t327267\t我告訴你為什麼你知道嗎因為本來稅客收入是有九項你們只列了五項少了四項所以才會有這樣缺少的一個狀況所以這樣看起來你在編列預算的時候是不是有這種盈利這個收入的一個狀況那為什麼我們拿到的預算表是這樣咧\n331030\t357560\t我不知道您的預算表上當然是我們在預算書看過去哪裡拿到的所以可能請院長針對這部分因為我看到這樣的預算表的時候我就覺得不可能是計算錯嘛當然要不然我要去哪裡編就是說這個部分我覺得當在編列上因為事實上如果我想有在銀行服務的人都知道少一塊錢都不能下班都不能都不能說自己拿一塊錢出來補\n358280\t371755\t更何況是少那麼多錢所以這也很明顯的隱匿的一個狀況我們真的是有九項我剛剛就跟您講了應該有九項可是你列了五項那到底是什麼樣的原因我們再來看看\n373297\t397488\t我們再來看看下一個就是我們有把115年度的稅務預算跟113年度的稅務決算進行比較因為114年度還沒出來所以為什麼我也拿這兩年比較是因為114年度的經濟成長率預估有5%115年度目前你們也預估有2.8%所以兩邊加起來可能會有7.8%的一個成長率理論上經濟成長了\n399389\t415049\t那應該是我們的這個稅入應該會同步提高那所以說呢差了7.8億可是我們兩個一比較呢你可以看到目前在115年度的總預算當中有9個項目刻意被低估你可以看到這9個項目\n416391\t440612\t就是移政稅低估36億 關稅短估140億貨物稅短估367億 證交稅短估380億證交稅短估25億 罰款及賠償收入短估80億規費收入短估18億 財政收入短估104億營業營餘跟收入短估164億 其他收入短估260億整個加起來的預估短估1574億\n443720\t467537\t那請問一下在這個部分我們其實這種分箱低估收入的這種方式會讓我們整個的這個整體的財政規模會被人為的縮小也是對我們這個財政紀律的一個扭曲所以預算應該要實際反映國家的一個真實的狀況而不是刻意營造這種好像財政吃緊的一個狀況那請問一下短估的這一千照理說你經濟成長了7.8%不可能還減少1574億\n472521\t484770\t所以這個短估的狀況到底是為什麼這樣看起來會讓我們覺得說好像是可以合理化的舉債或壓縮薪資甚至就是讓我們地方的補助變少那請問一下這樣子的一個狀況是為什麼\n486878\t507891\t請部長說明當初我們這邊的時候我們逐項都有經過跟部長的討論跟比對那請部長詳細說明對 跟委員報告各個稅務我們都有不同的一個計算的基礎那也要看往年的一個收入情形還有要扣除大額特殊案件譬如說像疑政稅的話如果那一年有大額的計算所以這個要按\n508271\t530080\t平常的來算我是想請教院長就是說照理說114 115年他經濟成長是應該是7你們預估7.8%但是呢我們的這個你們現在預估的稅率反而反而減少而且低估了這就1000光這幾項9項就低估了1574億了所以這到底是什麼樣的原因\n531906\t553916\t沒有到那麼多我們的稅務沒有稅少到這麼少啊而且我們的中手稅是增加的除了扣掉那個才那個才化法扣除以外整合是增加的對 扣除才化我沒有加到這個部分啊那是在營業稅的部分嘛3544億現在變296億我也沒有講這個部分啊我現在指的是說你稅客收入是兩兆\n556457\t578724\t預算數是2到8623億那針對這部分你就是短估了這些項目短估1574億所以說如果有了這1574億不管是軍人加薪的300億元或者是警消退休金額的這個退休金的這個大概抓50億元還有地方的一些補助其實有這1574億都可以做到啊\n579907\t606037\t跟委員報告沒有所謂的短估那各個數據怎麼估算出來我們可以逐項跟委員做詳細的說明院長我想是不是應該要把一個我們這樣子的稅務預測的模型而且把短估的部分補正在預算當中因為不合理啦就是我的明明經濟成長這兩年加起來是增加了7.8%可是我的預算居然會減少1500多億這是非常不合理的\n606497\t630719\t所以說是不是可以請院長能夠立即檢討我們115年度的這樣子的一個稅入預測的一個模型然後把短估補正於預算中委員如果從我們送的預算書上面來看到有這樣的數字的變化心中會有說疑慮那是難免所以也希望我們未來在審查預算的過程當中能夠讓財政部跟其他部合理的充分的跟委員做說明\n632288\t646538\t這部分我也要拜託院長未來如果有像這樣子的稅務預算跟決算的差距超過3%的話是不是能夠就提出一個差異說明報告送到立法院來讓我們在審預算的時候不會有這麼多的疑慮\n647778\t676802\t謝謝委員 這個提議我覺得應該很好好 謝謝院長所以我想這一個部分其實我們要的是整體的稅務能夠如實真實的編列在預算當中讓我們在立法院可以好好的來審查而不是用這樣的一個方式讓我們覺得看到預算社的時候嚇一跳短估那麼多然後告訴我們幫軍人加薪300億沒錢幫警消的50億沒錢其實你只要把短估的估回來是有辦法做到的\n677899\t693635\t這部分再請院長 能夠請台北部門當時主項都有討論不至於出現短估的現象那這個問題我們會在審查預算目前看起來就是這樣他都應該是有過分析跟預估的所以將來在審查預算會充分向委員報告\n695316\t715466\t來做這個質詢其實我做了很多的準備所以也把這列出來也跟您詳細的分析所以我相信剛剛講的這個應該我覺得在這個方面有很大的一個問題所以如果真的隱匿這樣子的話來欺騙立法院的話我們省這個預算就沒有什麼意義了不會欺騙立法院對那所以說請\n716606\t737527\t請院長針對這個部分一定要審慎的嚴格的來去做一個這樣的一個把關我們會尊重剛剛委員那樣的提議未來做強化強力的說明謝謝那另外呢我們下一個議題是我們可以看到就是其實在2021年CNN在講說我們台灣是行人地獄的時候我們其實我相信大家都想要做這樣的一個\n739421\t758661\t都想做這樣一個改善可是今年在8月31的時候德國媒體又出現了這樣一篇報導他說台灣每年因為交通事故死傷的人數超過美國911的恐攻的死亡總數所以也提醒外國的遊客來台灣的時候要三思\n759542\t785473\t但這是非常沉重而且非常羞辱的一個國際評價那我也知道我們想要改善這樣的一個狀況所以呢行政院有核定了一個永續提升人行安全計畫400億那這400億呢其中在這個公務局有140億那在國土署有260億總共是這樣那我可以請這個院長看一下嗎他的經費分配數您看一下\n787216\t809127\t在交通部負責140億前三年只編列38億剩下超過102億大概是超過七成全部集中在最後一年國土署在前三年只編列100億剩下159億在最後一年編列大概也超過六成\n809787\t832245\t那我想請教一下行人安全計劃有六七成的預算是在最後一年才執行請問這樣子的一個預算分配合理嗎?院長請您先回答部長先說明一下我們的逐年計劃好跟委員報告好院長我先請教您針對我剛講的這樣在最後一年編列了六跟七成的部分您覺得合理嗎?迎您這樣直接的\n832705\t853850\t是 我要分析他的逐年計畫因為一開始一定是比較少那中間一定有些規劃的過程那但最後一年是七成喔那就是說 請部長說明一下最後一年的執行力到底能不能把它完成起來報告員 其實我們交通部尤其公路局他們在執行的那個面向都超過這些預算啦我們有一些是用自己的公路局裡面的預算下去做\n854310\t876044\t所以其實已經超過這個數額那最後一年確實就像院長剛剛所說的一開始的計畫會比較慢那後面我們會逐步來加強那有一些像內政部的部分等一下應該部長也會講跟地方政府的合作也要看地方政府申請的狀況對 但是您的這種編列的方式在最後一年七成耶\n876960\t903277\t一般我們在做這樣的一個連續性的計畫不可能在最後一年編列七成的預算而且請跟院長看一下這個數字我可能要回去再查核一下因為實際上我記得明年很像不只是這個數額前幾年執行的沒有這麼少跟委員報告一下其實我們跟地方政府的合作都非常的好那地方政府如果送上來之後我們需要有時間去做規劃跟考核那請問一下部長這個數字正不正確你們前三年是編列37億對不對\n905083\t926336\t有一点我需要再做确认院长其实有这样子的一个编列的方式只会让我们合理的怀疑第一个是不是行政效率太差所以都要集中在最后一年要不然就是116年是什么时间你知道吗就是总统大选的前一年\n927546\t948755\t所以讓人也合理的懷疑是不是要用在總統那裡的最後一年用這樣的方式來綁裝用這樣的錢來綁裝否則完全不合理啊我們大部分的預算編列在最後一年那請問是哪個天才想出來這樣子的一個方式來編這樣的預算您的懷疑我們會做合理的說明我請交通部內政部\n949315\t960789\t用這個數據跟委員做合理的說明我們地方政府確實需要有時間跟中央政府一起來合作這個跟綁裝不綁裝完全沒有關係那是不是可以在這邊請院長具體的承諾絕對不會用這筆錢來做政治綁裝不會\n965715\t982233\t那院長您今天具體承諾那我們就到時候來看看那當然這個部分我希望院長還有一個重要的問題我看到的這個部分就是這樣的一個感受為什麼會在最後一年那當然也請你們提出合理的說明\n983534\t998121\t然後另外就是我們現在看到的就是還有最近啊有很多地以前本來我們一些縣市政府都有在爭取這些人行道的一個改善的尤其是在學童在這個校園的附近最近呢大家不敢申請了你知道為什麼嗎院長知道嗎為什麼最近大家不敢申請不敢申請了為什麼\n1005629\t1028115\t因為是不是未來的錢回到地方去了不是是因為我們現在不管是中南部像我來自雲林縣雲林縣以前是五級的這個財力分級的縣市所以他只要自籌12%現在因為財化法的關係全部都變成一級了所以他現在要自籌80幾%你說怎麼做\n1028855\t1055300\t因為財化法就是把錢分給地方啊這樣你沒有辦法做啦為什麼他們就不會再來爭如果財化法把錢分給地方要中央負擔80%中央也沒有辦法做啊那你編列這400億要做什麼跟地方還是合作啊對嘛所以你就是要讓地方來申請嘛分擔的比例要調整其實我擔憂的是一個問題你知道嗎就是您看到的就是越窮的地方越沒有人行道越弱勢的孩子越危險為什麼因為本來財力五級的縣市\n1058462\t1073628\t他變成要變成一級的縣市所以他的要自籌八成多的一個他這個變化不是沒有原因的因為他有多比較多的統籌分配稅款他才會升級我現在是請教院長那請問你剛說要跟地方合作這400億那代表這400億不用那麼多囉\n1074508\t1090265\t可以砍掉一些囉所以我剛才只是要跟你們表達就是說因為這些比較窮的縣市它本來財力五級的縣市它就是因為有需要所以它才會用這樣的一個方式那如果我們現在把它回歸到說好它現在通常變一級的窮的還是窮啊\n1091747\t1109328\t那你說你真正有分配要給因為財化法分配給他們的數字真的有那麼多嗎因為你一般補助款你又拉回來啦所以於雲林縣來說其實我算過他今年度還少了28.3億一般補助款的部分中央地方全縣劃分的事情現在正由國發會還有政府院長\n1110209\t1131526\t那院長你就是說我們這筆情人的這個不需要四百億囉因為你都是地方自己處理就好啦原來的計畫是有那這跟地方怎麼去談合作未來可能用不同的所以我想告訴院長的是這個部分我覺得用才化法的這個把五級大家全部都變成一級對於本來五級的這個限制沒有第五級全部變成一級啊你說的可能是苗栗縣啊現在全部都是啊\n1132266\t1151152\t因為大家都變成正的啦全部都說你們因為財劃法之後都變成全部都變一級啊是不是請院長能夠我們可以把財劃法的分級表新的送給委員看那最後我再請教一下就請院長再把資料傳給登本辦然後再看一下就是這個有關\n1152813\t1178553\t我們面對中國大陸三無的船就是無船名無船舶證書無船級港的登記政府的處理態度是什麼就是我們面對中國大陸的三無船請問政府的處理態度是什麼船級的登記我們現在我們在講嘛中國大陸都一堆三無船來就忽然跑到我們的海域來啦有所謂的黑名單有黑名單我們會拒絕他禁止他進到我們的這個\n1182970\t1200996\t管轄範圍裡面那遇到三無船你們會不會強力取締如果他強力當然是進到海域來我們當然要強力取締你們會強力取締嗎好我現在來跟跟您探討一下就台灣沿岸最近有出現了這個一種也是三無的這個船就是波特船\n1202281\t1217147\t他只要裝上動力馬達就可以釣魚載客不用船舶檢查也不用進出港登記在任何岸邊都可以自由進出也不用裝設AIS然後在海上神出鬼沒這就是標準的三無船不但危險而且還有國安的一個問題\n1218047\t1237389\t那根據海委會113年3月因為他只統計到3月底啦我們可以看到這類的無牌照的小船的數量已經達到到113年3月就已經1442艘發生海難的事故也大概高達44件請問院長喔這種免牌照的小船到底歸誰管\n1238610\t1252335\t我們可以看到喔漁業捕撈算農業部休閒觀光算交通部國安管制算海委會運動發展算運動部請問一下院長你覺得這個這個波特船應該歸誰管\n1255855\t1271572\t這個最近海委會有增加的一些設備他們對這種小型船的查詢能力是增強的所以剛剛這裡是流布島你沒辦法查詢 因為他沒有裝AIS啊所以你根本沒有辦法查啊那這種波特船我相信這個可以停在哪裡你知道嗎沒辦法\n1273273\t1291685\t因為他就到處亂停他完全沒有任何的一個就是比如說管制啊或者是說任何的要求他就是他想他自己想要他想要有他就有他想要出港他就出廣他想要出去就出去有這樣的一個狀況我們來看一下一個影片好不好請院長看一下\n1301638\t1306686\t整個海都黃了啦看魚啦這樣啦看這樣釣多少啦\n1317368\t1339176\t我們剛剛好這影片可以聽一下我們剛剛看到的是滿滿的海上都是波特船在那邊釣魚好那結果看到滿滿的漁獲那你覺得他有沒有可能就是拿來販賣呢絕對有可能因為他根本沒有管理結果剛剛講的剛剛請院長請教的就是說這個到底應該由誰管院長可以先回答我嗎剛講的這個\n1341363\t1363853\t波特船應該由誰來管這樣看起來他的行為是一種新興的行業不只喔 很多年了不是新興的行業這可能不在你剛剛講的四個分類當中我們應該外部會來研究看看第一個基於國家的安全這已經研究很多年了國家的安全 海域的安全 走私這個已經 院長我今天會提就是因為這個一般的漁民一直反映這已經研究很多年了\n1364093\t1383230\t那院長可不可以具體在這邊給我們承諾就是說在一個月內你們就可以把這個到底由誰管的這個主管機關能夠把它這個訂定下來好不好否則的話這樣一過去可能又是好多年了委員我們跨部會來加速進行這個管理制度可不可以在一個月內提出來目前已經有十個縣市政府他們有納管波特傳\n1384211\t1405241\t基本上我這邊想要請教院長可不可以在一個月之內建出來到底由誰管好嗎我會請我們負責國安的政委來協助來協調各部會我們跨部會來主持組成一個會議來討論第一個無法可管第二個就是說我們可以看到就是波特船你可以看到他幾乎所有都沒有\n1406281\t1427730\t專法納管沒有 登錄沒有 船編沒有 漁獲回報沒有 入出安全沒有 裝設AS沒有這還有一個什麼問題你知道嗎就是它有可能利用這樣的一個波特船 因為它沒有AS嘛 它其實你偵測不到它可以利用來偷渡跟走私 院長知道嗎我們之前在討論到船舶法跟商港法的修法過程已經有吧 這個是我也\n1429532\t1441209\t山無船 把它列進去的現在事實上也影響於有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是有辦法可以一個月內嗎否則的話一過去 明年我要問一樣的問題\n1447399\t1461520\t好謝謝院長那就一個月內請你們再訂出第一個訂出組織機關第二個應該要競速訂管理專法可以嗎就剛剛講了其實沒有很多法不然船舶法各方面的法但是針對波特船這樣子的一個\n1462541\t1478655\t目前無法可管的這樣是不是可以訂定一個管理專法就比較需要更多的時間來考量但是以目前的機制來講我們已經有跨部會的好 那就一個月內確定組織單位然後之後我們再來研究專法可以嗎我們已經送納月來審議了那如果這個部分我們需要在廣義定義上來做或是加一些強化的措施我們就來處理\n1488243\t1507648\t好,謝謝院長,希望能夠把波特傳這個亂象真正的現在把它剔除。那另外最後一個問題就是要請教你就是有關非洲豬瘟的,因為其實本席在最近有收到很多的養豬業者的陳情,他們都希望能夠禁用廚餘養豬。\n1509668\t1534443\t那當然目前發生的這樣的一個狀況剛剛我有聽到院長還有部長的一些回覆目前好像還沒有打算要禁用處於養豬那當然這也可能就是七年多前那時候的賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長擬擔任秘書長的時候的一個決定但是我覺得這個對養豬業者真的非常重要所以還是覺得院長應該要審慎來去思考禁用處於養豬\n1552841\t1553029\t謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝韓院長我們請卓文泰卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n學員好 院長好 院長我想請您先看一下這張稅入預算跟決算的一個比較表我們可以從這個表刻可以清楚的看到一個現象就是中央政府的稅入的這個決算數長期而且顯著的高於預算數\n也就是中央政府其實每年的收入都被刻意的低估所以從這幾年的這個預算數跟決算數的相比您可以看到平均都高出3300億到4400億大概最多可以到將近20%所以這應該不是偶然的誤差而是長期制度性的這個低估\n所以導致外界都沒有辦法準確的掌握這個國家財政的一個真相喔那這種做法呢就是可以製造出一種財政吃緊的一個假象讓政府有理由舉債啦或者是凍結部分的支出那又能夠在年度這個執行的之後用超徵或稅入高於預期的一個名義靈活的運用這些隱藏的收入所以請問院長造成政府稅入低估的原因是什麼\n那這樣的一個故意的低估這些預留的款項到底是要保留給哪些特定的項目呢報告委員 稅入的決算數會比稅入的預算數高就不是超增兩個字是我們的時增數超過我們的預算數請問一下這樣子長期的被低估的狀況在115年稅入我們在編訂的時候已經請財政部能夠\n横租过去的经验以及现在的经济的发展跟明年的预测已经大幅提高税入的一些115年度的这个税入的预算数其实比去年还低啊因为有两只有两兆8623亿啊第一是因为台化法的关系你挪出去的4000多亿才低的\n那加上這個部分的話您可以看一下我們現在看到的就是說其實過去這從110年到113年來看到的其實就是有低估的大概將近20%左右請問一下部長這是什麼原因跟委員報告我們的預算數在籌編到最後的執行完畢大概將近有兩年的時間這兩年的時間其實有許多變化的因素但是這個變化好像也太大了\n而且長期不是說偶爾一次那就是可能是財政部的低估的能力109年就沒有達到預算數109年的時候我現在是請教你110年到113年甚至到114年所以其實這個是會讓人家感受到就是說我們是刻意的去低估而造成我們沒有辦法好好的用這樣子一個財政的一個技術的一個會計技術來匡批我們立法院\n就會有這樣的一個狀況那當然我們再看一下下一張表格請院長再看一下\n在115年度的中央政府的總預算的稅入來圓別的一個編列情況喔就是您可以看一下稅客收入是預算數是2到4807億那紅色框框的部分呢就包含了所得稅、證交稅、關稅、貨物稅、營業稅加起來是2到4104億那請問一下703億跑到哪裡去了為什麼會出現這樣的落差請問院長\n你看喔 你說客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億可是你下面只有五個項目嘛然後所以加起來是兩兆四千一百零四億少了七百零三億請問怎麼會出現這樣的落差請院長回答\n計算的問題部長再說明可能連計算都計算錯吧一定是我們是合計數一定是各個稅務的相加呀對啊所以我現在加給你看啊結果看到只有兩兆4104億啊就少了703億啊請問是為什麼\n我們編的是內地稅是2兆4807億的稅客對啊 是啊那這你下面就是編了這幾個這個分項嘛那到底是為什麼會有這樣的隱匿稅入的一個預算呢是到底是什麼樣造成這樣的一個問題\n稅務裡面包含的有稅客收入我現在講的就是稅客收入稅客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億這個部分應該是全部的合計數可是這五項加起來只有兩兆四千一百零四億你的項目是不是涵蓋全部呢\n那為什麼會出現這樣 我們是在依據你們的這個中央政府稅務來源別的編列情形表喔 表三之二 您可以看得到所以我們現在看到的狀況就是那是所得稅 證交稅 關稅 貨物稅 營業稅\n我告訴你為什麼你知道嗎因為本來稅客收入是有九項你們只列了五項少了四項所以才會有這樣缺少的一個狀況所以這樣看起來你在編列預算的時候是不是有這種盈利這個收入的一個狀況那為什麼我們拿到的預算表是這樣咧\n我不知道您的預算表上當然是我們在預算書看過去哪裡拿到的所以可能請院長針對這部分因為我看到這樣的預算表的時候我就覺得不可能是計算錯嘛當然要不然我要去哪裡編就是說這個部分我覺得當在編列上因為事實上如果我想有在銀行服務的人都知道少一塊錢都不能下班都不能都不能說自己拿一塊錢出來補\n更何況是少那麼多錢所以這也很明顯的隱匿的一個狀況我們真的是有九項我剛剛就跟您講了應該有九項可是你列了五項那到底是什麼樣的原因我們再來看看\n我們再來看看下一個就是我們有把115年度的稅務預算跟113年度的稅務決算進行比較因為114年度還沒出來所以為什麼我也拿這兩年比較是因為114年度的經濟成長率預估有5%115年度目前你們也預估有2.8%所以兩邊加起來可能會有7.8%的一個成長率理論上經濟成長了\n那應該是我們的這個稅入應該會同步提高那所以說呢差了7.8億可是我們兩個一比較呢你可以看到目前在115年度的總預算當中有9個項目刻意被低估你可以看到這9個項目\n就是移政稅低估36億 關稅短估140億貨物稅短估367億 證交稅短估380億證交稅短估25億 罰款及賠償收入短估80億規費收入短估18億 財政收入短估104億營業營餘跟收入短估164億 其他收入短估260億整個加起來的預估短估1574億\n那請問一下在這個部分我們其實這種分箱低估收入的這種方式會讓我們整個的這個整體的財政規模會被人為的縮小也是對我們這個財政紀律的一個扭曲所以預算應該要實際反映國家的一個真實的狀況而不是刻意營造這種好像財政吃緊的一個狀況那請問一下短估的這一千照理說你經濟成長了7.8%不可能還減少1574億\n所以這個短估的狀況到底是為什麼這樣看起來會讓我們覺得說好像是可以合理化的舉債或壓縮薪資甚至就是讓我們地方的補助變少那請問一下這樣子的一個狀況是為什麼\n請部長說明當初我們這邊的時候我們逐項都有經過跟部長的討論跟比對那請部長詳細說明對 跟委員報告各個稅務我們都有不同的一個計算的基礎那也要看往年的一個收入情形還有要扣除大額特殊案件譬如說像疑政稅的話如果那一年有大額的計算所以這個要按\n平常的來算我是想請教院長就是說照理說114 115年他經濟成長是應該是7你們預估7.8%但是呢我們的這個你們現在預估的稅率反而反而減少而且低估了這就1000光這幾項9項就低估了1574億了所以這到底是什麼樣的原因\n沒有到那麼多我們的稅務沒有稅少到這麼少啊而且我們的中手稅是增加的除了扣掉那個才那個才化法扣除以外整合是增加的對 扣除才化我沒有加到這個部分啊那是在營業稅的部分嘛3544億現在變296億我也沒有講這個部分啊我現在指的是說你稅客收入是兩兆\n預算數是2到8623億那針對這部分你就是短估了這些項目短估1574億所以說如果有了這1574億不管是軍人加薪的300億元或者是警消退休金額的這個退休金的這個大概抓50億元還有地方的一些補助其實有這1574億都可以做到啊\n跟委員報告沒有所謂的短估那各個數據怎麼估算出來我們可以逐項跟委員做詳細的說明院長我想是不是應該要把一個我們這樣子的稅務預測的模型而且把短估的部分補正在預算當中因為不合理啦就是我的明明經濟成長這兩年加起來是增加了7.8%可是我的預算居然會減少1500多億這是非常不合理的\n所以說是不是可以請院長能夠立即檢討我們115年度的這樣子的一個稅入預測的一個模型然後把短估補正於預算中委員如果從我們送的預算書上面來看到有這樣的數字的變化心中會有說疑慮那是難免所以也希望我們未來在審查預算的過程當中能夠讓財政部跟其他部合理的充分的跟委員做說明\n這部分我也要拜託院長未來如果有像這樣子的稅務預算跟決算的差距超過3%的話是不是能夠就提出一個差異說明報告送到立法院來讓我們在審預算的時候不會有這麼多的疑慮\n謝謝委員 這個提議我覺得應該很好好 謝謝院長所以我想這一個部分其實我們要的是整體的稅務能夠如實真實的編列在預算當中讓我們在立法院可以好好的來審查而不是用這樣的一個方式讓我們覺得看到預算社的時候嚇一跳短估那麼多然後告訴我們幫軍人加薪300億沒錢幫警消的50億沒錢其實你只要把短估的估回來是有辦法做到的\n這部分再請院長 能夠請台北部門當時主項都有討論不至於出現短估的現象那這個問題我們會在審查預算目前看起來就是這樣他都應該是有過分析跟預估的所以將來在審查預算會充分向委員報告\n來做這個質詢其實我做了很多的準備所以也把這列出來也跟您詳細的分析所以我相信剛剛講的這個應該我覺得在這個方面有很大的一個問題所以如果真的隱匿這樣子的話來欺騙立法院的話我們省這個預算就沒有什麼意義了不會欺騙立法院對那所以說請\n請院長針對這個部分一定要審慎的嚴格的來去做一個這樣的一個把關我們會尊重剛剛委員那樣的提議未來做強化強力的說明謝謝那另外呢我們下一個議題是我們可以看到就是其實在2021年CNN在講說我們台灣是行人地獄的時候我們其實我相信大家都想要做這樣的一個\n都想做這樣一個改善可是今年在8月31的時候德國媒體又出現了這樣一篇報導他說台灣每年因為交通事故死傷的人數超過美國911的恐攻的死亡總數所以也提醒外國的遊客來台灣的時候要三思\n但這是非常沉重而且非常羞辱的一個國際評價那我也知道我們想要改善這樣的一個狀況所以呢行政院有核定了一個永續提升人行安全計畫400億那這400億呢其中在這個公務局有140億那在國土署有260億總共是這樣那我可以請這個院長看一下嗎他的經費分配數您看一下\n在交通部負責140億前三年只編列38億剩下超過102億大概是超過七成全部集中在最後一年國土署在前三年只編列100億剩下159億在最後一年編列大概也超過六成\n那我想請教一下行人安全計劃有六七成的預算是在最後一年才執行請問這樣子的一個預算分配合理嗎?院長請您先回答部長先說明一下我們的逐年計劃好跟委員報告好院長我先請教您針對我剛講的這樣在最後一年編列了六跟七成的部分您覺得合理嗎?迎您這樣直接的\n是 我要分析他的逐年計畫因為一開始一定是比較少那中間一定有些規劃的過程那但最後一年是七成喔那就是說 請部長說明一下最後一年的執行力到底能不能把它完成起來報告員 其實我們交通部尤其公路局他們在執行的那個面向都超過這些預算啦我們有一些是用自己的公路局裡面的預算下去做\n所以其實已經超過這個數額那最後一年確實就像院長剛剛所說的一開始的計畫會比較慢那後面我們會逐步來加強那有一些像內政部的部分等一下應該部長也會講跟地方政府的合作也要看地方政府申請的狀況對 但是您的這種編列的方式在最後一年七成耶\n一般我們在做這樣的一個連續性的計畫不可能在最後一年編列七成的預算而且請跟院長看一下這個數字我可能要回去再查核一下因為實際上我記得明年很像不只是這個數額前幾年執行的沒有這麼少跟委員報告一下其實我們跟地方政府的合作都非常的好那地方政府如果送上來之後我們需要有時間去做規劃跟考核那請問一下部長這個數字正不正確你們前三年是編列37億對不對\n有一点我需要再做确认院长其实有这样子的一个编列的方式只会让我们合理的怀疑第一个是不是行政效率太差所以都要集中在最后一年要不然就是116年是什么时间你知道吗就是总统大选的前一年\n所以讓人也合理的懷疑是不是要用在總統那裡的最後一年用這樣的方式來綁裝用這樣的錢來綁裝否則完全不合理啊我們大部分的預算編列在最後一年那請問是哪個天才想出來這樣子的一個方式來編這樣的預算您的懷疑我們會做合理的說明我請交通部內政部\n用這個數據跟委員做合理的說明我們地方政府確實需要有時間跟中央政府一起來合作這個跟綁裝不綁裝完全沒有關係那是不是可以在這邊請院長具體的承諾絕對不會用這筆錢來做政治綁裝不會\n那院長您今天具體承諾那我們就到時候來看看那當然這個部分我希望院長還有一個重要的問題我看到的這個部分就是這樣的一個感受為什麼會在最後一年那當然也請你們提出合理的說明\n然後另外就是我們現在看到的就是還有最近啊有很多地以前本來我們一些縣市政府都有在爭取這些人行道的一個改善的尤其是在學童在這個校園的附近最近呢大家不敢申請了你知道為什麼嗎院長知道嗎為什麼最近大家不敢申請不敢申請了為什麼\n因為是不是未來的錢回到地方去了不是是因為我們現在不管是中南部像我來自雲林縣雲林縣以前是五級的這個財力分級的縣市所以他只要自籌12%現在因為財化法的關係全部都變成一級了所以他現在要自籌80幾%你說怎麼做\n因為財化法就是把錢分給地方啊這樣你沒有辦法做啦為什麼他們就不會再來爭如果財化法把錢分給地方要中央負擔80%中央也沒有辦法做啊那你編列這400億要做什麼跟地方還是合作啊對嘛所以你就是要讓地方來申請嘛分擔的比例要調整其實我擔憂的是一個問題你知道嗎就是您看到的就是越窮的地方越沒有人行道越弱勢的孩子越危險為什麼因為本來財力五級的縣市\n他變成要變成一級的縣市所以他的要自籌八成多的一個他這個變化不是沒有原因的因為他有多比較多的統籌分配稅款他才會升級我現在是請教院長那請問你剛說要跟地方合作這400億那代表這400億不用那麼多囉\n可以砍掉一些囉所以我剛才只是要跟你們表達就是說因為這些比較窮的縣市它本來財力五級的縣市它就是因為有需要所以它才會用這樣的一個方式那如果我們現在把它回歸到說好它現在通常變一級的窮的還是窮啊\n那你說你真正有分配要給因為財化法分配給他們的數字真的有那麼多嗎因為你一般補助款你又拉回來啦所以於雲林縣來說其實我算過他今年度還少了28.3億一般補助款的部分中央地方全縣劃分的事情現在正由國發會還有政府院長\n那院長你就是說我們這筆情人的這個不需要四百億囉因為你都是地方自己處理就好啦原來的計畫是有那這跟地方怎麼去談合作未來可能用不同的所以我想告訴院長的是這個部分我覺得用才化法的這個把五級大家全部都變成一級對於本來五級的這個限制沒有第五級全部變成一級啊你說的可能是苗栗縣啊現在全部都是啊\n因為大家都變成正的啦全部都說你們因為財劃法之後都變成全部都變一級啊是不是請院長能夠我們可以把財劃法的分級表新的送給委員看那最後我再請教一下就請院長再把資料傳給登本辦然後再看一下就是這個有關\n我們面對中國大陸三無的船就是無船名無船舶證書無船級港的登記政府的處理態度是什麼就是我們面對中國大陸的三無船請問政府的處理態度是什麼船級的登記我們現在我們在講嘛中國大陸都一堆三無船來就忽然跑到我們的海域來啦有所謂的黑名單有黑名單我們會拒絕他禁止他進到我們的這個\n管轄範圍裡面那遇到三無船你們會不會強力取締如果他強力當然是進到海域來我們當然要強力取締你們會強力取締嗎好我現在來跟跟您探討一下就台灣沿岸最近有出現了這個一種也是三無的這個船就是波特船\n他只要裝上動力馬達就可以釣魚載客不用船舶檢查也不用進出港登記在任何岸邊都可以自由進出也不用裝設AIS然後在海上神出鬼沒這就是標準的三無船不但危險而且還有國安的一個問題\n那根據海委會113年3月因為他只統計到3月底啦我們可以看到這類的無牌照的小船的數量已經達到到113年3月就已經1442艘發生海難的事故也大概高達44件請問院長喔這種免牌照的小船到底歸誰管\n我們可以看到喔漁業捕撈算農業部休閒觀光算交通部國安管制算海委會運動發展算運動部請問一下院長你覺得這個這個波特船應該歸誰管\n這個最近海委會有增加的一些設備他們對這種小型船的查詢能力是增強的所以剛剛這裡是流布島你沒辦法查詢 因為他沒有裝AIS啊所以你根本沒有辦法查啊那這種波特船我相信這個可以停在哪裡你知道嗎沒辦法\n因為他就到處亂停他完全沒有任何的一個就是比如說管制啊或者是說任何的要求他就是他想他自己想要他想要有他就有他想要出港他就出廣他想要出去就出去有這樣的一個狀況我們來看一下一個影片好不好請院長看一下\n整個海都黃了啦看魚啦這樣啦看這樣釣多少啦\n我們剛剛好這影片可以聽一下我們剛剛看到的是滿滿的海上都是波特船在那邊釣魚好那結果看到滿滿的漁獲那你覺得他有沒有可能就是拿來販賣呢絕對有可能因為他根本沒有管理結果剛剛講的剛剛請院長請教的就是說這個到底應該由誰管院長可以先回答我嗎剛講的這個\n波特船應該由誰來管這樣看起來他的行為是一種新興的行業不只喔 很多年了不是新興的行業這可能不在你剛剛講的四個分類當中我們應該外部會來研究看看第一個基於國家的安全這已經研究很多年了國家的安全 海域的安全 走私這個已經 院長我今天會提就是因為這個一般的漁民一直反映這已經研究很多年了\n那院長可不可以具體在這邊給我們承諾就是說在一個月內你們就可以把這個到底由誰管的這個主管機關能夠把它這個訂定下來好不好否則的話這樣一過去可能又是好多年了委員我們跨部會來加速進行這個管理制度可不可以在一個月內提出來目前已經有十個縣市政府他們有納管波特傳\n基本上我這邊想要請教院長可不可以在一個月之內建出來到底由誰管好嗎我會請我們負責國安的政委來協助來協調各部會我們跨部會來主持組成一個會議來討論第一個無法可管第二個就是說我們可以看到就是波特船你可以看到他幾乎所有都沒有\n專法納管沒有 登錄沒有 船編沒有 漁獲回報沒有 入出安全沒有 裝設AS沒有這還有一個什麼問題你知道嗎就是它有可能利用這樣的一個波特船 因為它沒有AS嘛 它其實你偵測不到它可以利用來偷渡跟走私 院長知道嗎我們之前在討論到船舶法跟商港法的修法過程已經有吧 這個是我也\n山無船 把它列進去的現在事實上也影響於有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是有辦法可以一個月內嗎否則的話一過去 明年我要問一樣的問題\n好謝謝院長那就一個月內請你們再訂出第一個訂出組織機關第二個應該要競速訂管理專法可以嗎就剛剛講了其實沒有很多法不然船舶法各方面的法但是針對波特船這樣子的一個\n目前無法可管的這樣是不是可以訂定一個管理專法就比較需要更多的時間來考量但是以目前的機制來講我們已經有跨部會的好 那就一個月內確定組織單位然後之後我們再來研究專法可以嗎我們已經送納月來審議了那如果這個部分我們需要在廣義定義上來做或是加一些強化的措施我們就來處理\n好,謝謝院長,希望能夠把波特傳這個亂象真正的現在把它剔除。那另外最後一個問題就是要請教你就是有關非洲豬瘟的,因為其實本席在最近有收到很多的養豬業者的陳情,他們都希望能夠禁用廚餘養豬。\n那當然目前發生的這樣的一個狀況剛剛我有聽到院長還有部長的一些回覆目前好像還沒有打算要禁用處於養豬那當然這也可能就是七年多前那時候的賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長擬擔任秘書長的時候的一個決定但是我覺得這個對養豬業者真的非常重要所以還是覺得院長應該要審慎來去思考禁用處於養豬\n謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.670 --> 00:02.672\n謝謝韓院長我們請卓文泰卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:30.789 --> 00:47.809\n學員好院長好院長我想請您先看一下這張稅入預算跟決算的一個比較表我們可以從這個表刻可以清楚的看到一個現象就是中央政府的稅入的這個決算數長期而且顯著的高於預算數\n\n00:48.490 --> 01:06.844\n也就是中央政府其實每年的收入都被刻意的低估所以從這幾年的這個預算數跟決算數的相比您可以看到平均都高出3300億到4400億大概最多可以到將近20%所以這應該不是偶然的誤差而是長期制度性的這個低估\n\n01:07.364 --> 01:31.724\n所以導致外界都沒有辦法準確的掌握這個國家財政的一個真相喔那這種做法呢就是可以製造出一種財政吃緊的一個假象讓政府有理由舉債啦或者是凍結部分的支出那又能夠在年度這個執行的之後用超徵或稅入高於預期的一個名義靈活的運用這些隱藏的收入所以請問院長造成政府稅入低估的原因是什麼\n\n01:32.344 --> 01:50.590\n那這樣的一個故意的低估這些預留的款項到底是要保留給哪些特定的項目呢報告委員稅入的決算數會比稅入的預算數高就不是超增兩個字是我們的時增數超過我們的預算數請問一下這樣子長期的被低估的狀況在115年稅入我們在編訂的時候已經請財政部能夠\n\n01:55.854 --> 02:14.144\n横租过去的经验以及现在的经济的发展跟明年的预测已经大幅提高税入的一些115年度的这个税入的预算数其实比去年还低啊因为有两只有两兆8623亿啊第一是因为台化法的关系你挪出去的4000多亿才低的\n\n02:14.624 --> 02:42.265\n那加上這個部分的話您可以看一下我們現在看到的就是說其實過去這從110年到113年來看到的其實就是有低估的大概將近20%左右請問一下部長這是什麼原因跟委員報告我們的預算數在籌編到最後的執行完畢大概將近有兩年的時間這兩年的時間其實有許多變化的因素但是這個變化好像也太大了\n\n02:43.510 --> 03:11.359\n而且長期不是說偶爾一次那就是可能是財政部的低估的能力109年就沒有達到預算數109年的時候我現在是請教你110年到113年甚至到114年所以其實這個是會讓人家感受到就是說我們是刻意的去低估而造成我們沒有辦法好好的用這樣子一個財政的一個技術的一個會計技術來匡批我們立法院\n\n03:12.159 --> 03:16.577\n就會有這樣的一個狀況那當然我們再看一下下一張表格請院長再看一下\n\n03:17.611 --> 03:35.225\n在115年度的中央政府的總預算的稅入來圓別的一個編列情況喔就是您可以看一下稅客收入是預算數是2到4807億那紅色框框的部分呢就包含了所得稅、證交稅、關稅、貨物稅、營業稅加起來是2到4104億那請問一下703億跑到哪裡去了為什麼會出現這樣的落差請問院長\n\n03:46.735 --> 04:00.911\n你看喔你說客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億可是你下面只有五個項目嘛然後所以加起來是兩兆四千一百零四億少了七百零三億請問怎麼會出現這樣的落差請院長回答\n\n04:02.800 --> 04:14.915\n計算的問題部長再說明可能連計算都計算錯吧一定是我們是合計數一定是各個稅務的相加呀對啊所以我現在加給你看啊結果看到只有兩兆4104億啊就少了703億啊請問是為什麼\n\n04:18.479 --> 04:31.991\n我們編的是內地稅是2兆4807億的稅客對啊是啊那這你下面就是編了這幾個這個分項嘛那到底是為什麼會有這樣的隱匿稅入的一個預算呢是到底是什麼樣造成這樣的一個問題\n\n04:34.436 --> 04:48.821\n稅務裡面包含的有稅客收入我現在講的就是稅客收入稅客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億這個部分應該是全部的合計數可是這五項加起來只有兩兆四千一百零四億你的項目是不是涵蓋全部呢\n\n04:50.322 --> 05:04.590\n那為什麼會出現這樣我們是在依據你們的這個中央政府稅務來源別的編列情形表喔表三之二您可以看得到所以我們現在看到的狀況就是那是所得稅證交稅關稅貨物稅營業稅\n\n05:12.675 --> 05:27.267\n我告訴你為什麼你知道嗎因為本來稅客收入是有九項你們只列了五項少了四項所以才會有這樣缺少的一個狀況所以這樣看起來你在編列預算的時候是不是有這種盈利這個收入的一個狀況那為什麼我們拿到的預算表是這樣咧\n\n05:31.030 --> 05:57.560\n我不知道您的預算表上當然是我們在預算書看過去哪裡拿到的所以可能請院長針對這部分因為我看到這樣的預算表的時候我就覺得不可能是計算錯嘛當然要不然我要去哪裡編就是說這個部分我覺得當在編列上因為事實上如果我想有在銀行服務的人都知道少一塊錢都不能下班都不能都不能說自己拿一塊錢出來補\n\n05:58.280 --> 06:11.755\n更何況是少那麼多錢所以這也很明顯的隱匿的一個狀況我們真的是有九項我剛剛就跟您講了應該有九項可是你列了五項那到底是什麼樣的原因我們再來看看\n\n06:13.297 --> 06:37.488\n我們再來看看下一個就是我們有把115年度的稅務預算跟113年度的稅務決算進行比較因為114年度還沒出來所以為什麼我也拿這兩年比較是因為114年度的經濟成長率預估有5%115年度目前你們也預估有2.8%所以兩邊加起來可能會有7.8%的一個成長率理論上經濟成長了\n\n06:39.389 --> 06:55.049\n那應該是我們的這個稅入應該會同步提高那所以說呢差了7.8億可是我們兩個一比較呢你可以看到目前在115年度的總預算當中有9個項目刻意被低估你可以看到這9個項目\n\n06:56.391 --> 07:20.612\n就是移政稅低估36億關稅短估140億貨物稅短估367億證交稅短估380億證交稅短估25億罰款及賠償收入短估80億規費收入短估18億財政收入短估104億營業營餘跟收入短估164億其他收入短估260億整個加起來的預估短估1574億\n\n07:23.720 --> 07:47.537\n那請問一下在這個部分我們其實這種分箱低估收入的這種方式會讓我們整個的這個整體的財政規模會被人為的縮小也是對我們這個財政紀律的一個扭曲所以預算應該要實際反映國家的一個真實的狀況而不是刻意營造這種好像財政吃緊的一個狀況那請問一下短估的這一千照理說你經濟成長了7.8%不可能還減少1574億\n\n07:52.521 --> 08:04.770\n所以這個短估的狀況到底是為什麼這樣看起來會讓我們覺得說好像是可以合理化的舉債或壓縮薪資甚至就是讓我們地方的補助變少那請問一下這樣子的一個狀況是為什麼\n\n08:06.878 --> 08:27.891\n請部長說明當初我們這邊的時候我們逐項都有經過跟部長的討論跟比對那請部長詳細說明對跟委員報告各個稅務我們都有不同的一個計算的基礎那也要看往年的一個收入情形還有要扣除大額特殊案件譬如說像疑政稅的話如果那一年有大額的計算所以這個要按\n\n08:28.271 --> 08:50.080\n平常的來算我是想請教院長就是說照理說114115年他經濟成長是應該是7你們預估7.8%但是呢我們的這個你們現在預估的稅率反而反而減少而且低估了這就1000光這幾項9項就低估了1574億了所以這到底是什麼樣的原因\n\n08:51.906 --> 09:13.916\n沒有到那麼多我們的稅務沒有稅少到這麼少啊而且我們的中手稅是增加的除了扣掉那個才那個才化法扣除以外整合是增加的對扣除才化我沒有加到這個部分啊那是在營業稅的部分嘛3544億現在變296億我也沒有講這個部分啊我現在指的是說你稅客收入是兩兆\n\n09:16.457 --> 09:38.724\n預算數是2到8623億那針對這部分你就是短估了這些項目短估1574億所以說如果有了這1574億不管是軍人加薪的300億元或者是警消退休金額的這個退休金的這個大概抓50億元還有地方的一些補助其實有這1574億都可以做到啊\n\n09:39.907 --> 10:06.037\n跟委員報告沒有所謂的短估那各個數據怎麼估算出來我們可以逐項跟委員做詳細的說明院長我想是不是應該要把一個我們這樣子的稅務預測的模型而且把短估的部分補正在預算當中因為不合理啦就是我的明明經濟成長這兩年加起來是增加了7.8%可是我的預算居然會減少1500多億這是非常不合理的\n\n10:06.497 --> 10:30.719\n所以說是不是可以請院長能夠立即檢討我們115年度的這樣子的一個稅入預測的一個模型然後把短估補正於預算中委員如果從我們送的預算書上面來看到有這樣的數字的變化心中會有說疑慮那是難免所以也希望我們未來在審查預算的過程當中能夠讓財政部跟其他部合理的充分的跟委員做說明\n\n10:32.288 --> 10:46.538\n這部分我也要拜託院長未來如果有像這樣子的稅務預算跟決算的差距超過3%的話是不是能夠就提出一個差異說明報告送到立法院來讓我們在審預算的時候不會有這麼多的疑慮\n\n10:47.778 --> 11:16.802\n謝謝委員這個提議我覺得應該很好好謝謝院長所以我想這一個部分其實我們要的是整體的稅務能夠如實真實的編列在預算當中讓我們在立法院可以好好的來審查而不是用這樣的一個方式讓我們覺得看到預算社的時候嚇一跳短估那麼多然後告訴我們幫軍人加薪300億沒錢幫警消的50億沒錢其實你只要把短估的估回來是有辦法做到的\n\n11:17.899 --> 11:33.635\n這部分再請院長能夠請台北部門當時主項都有討論不至於出現短估的現象那這個問題我們會在審查預算目前看起來就是這樣他都應該是有過分析跟預估的所以將來在審查預算會充分向委員報告\n\n11:35.316 --> 11:55.466\n來做這個質詢其實我做了很多的準備所以也把這列出來也跟您詳細的分析所以我相信剛剛講的這個應該我覺得在這個方面有很大的一個問題所以如果真的隱匿這樣子的話來欺騙立法院的話我們省這個預算就沒有什麼意義了不會欺騙立法院對那所以說請\n\n11:56.606 --> 12:17.527\n請院長針對這個部分一定要審慎的嚴格的來去做一個這樣的一個把關我們會尊重剛剛委員那樣的提議未來做強化強力的說明謝謝那另外呢我們下一個議題是我們可以看到就是其實在2021年CNN在講說我們台灣是行人地獄的時候我們其實我相信大家都想要做這樣的一個\n\n12:19.421 --> 12:38.661\n都想做這樣一個改善可是今年在8月31的時候德國媒體又出現了這樣一篇報導他說台灣每年因為交通事故死傷的人數超過美國911的恐攻的死亡總數所以也提醒外國的遊客來台灣的時候要三思\n\n12:39.542 --> 13:05.473\n但這是非常沉重而且非常羞辱的一個國際評價那我也知道我們想要改善這樣的一個狀況所以呢行政院有核定了一個永續提升人行安全計畫400億那這400億呢其中在這個公務局有140億那在國土署有260億總共是這樣那我可以請這個院長看一下嗎他的經費分配數您看一下\n\n13:07.216 --> 13:29.127\n在交通部負責140億前三年只編列38億剩下超過102億大概是超過七成全部集中在最後一年國土署在前三年只編列100億剩下159億在最後一年編列大概也超過六成\n\n13:29.787 --> 13:52.245\n那我想請教一下行人安全計劃有六七成的預算是在最後一年才執行請問這樣子的一個預算分配合理嗎?院長請您先回答部長先說明一下我們的逐年計劃好跟委員報告好院長我先請教您針對我剛講的這樣在最後一年編列了六跟七成的部分您覺得合理嗎?迎您這樣直接的\n\n13:52.705 --> 14:13.850\n是我要分析他的逐年計畫因為一開始一定是比較少那中間一定有些規劃的過程那但最後一年是七成喔那就是說請部長說明一下最後一年的執行力到底能不能把它完成起來報告員其實我們交通部尤其公路局他們在執行的那個面向都超過這些預算啦我們有一些是用自己的公路局裡面的預算下去做\n\n14:14.310 --> 14:36.044\n所以其實已經超過這個數額那最後一年確實就像院長剛剛所說的一開始的計畫會比較慢那後面我們會逐步來加強那有一些像內政部的部分等一下應該部長也會講跟地方政府的合作也要看地方政府申請的狀況對但是您的這種編列的方式在最後一年七成耶\n\n14:36.960 --> 15:03.277\n一般我們在做這樣的一個連續性的計畫不可能在最後一年編列七成的預算而且請跟院長看一下這個數字我可能要回去再查核一下因為實際上我記得明年很像不只是這個數額前幾年執行的沒有這麼少跟委員報告一下其實我們跟地方政府的合作都非常的好那地方政府如果送上來之後我們需要有時間去做規劃跟考核那請問一下部長這個數字正不正確你們前三年是編列37億對不對\n\n15:05.083 --> 15:26.336\n有一点我需要再做确认院长其实有这样子的一个编列的方式只会让我们合理的怀疑第一个是不是行政效率太差所以都要集中在最后一年要不然就是116年是什么时间你知道吗就是总统大选的前一年\n\n15:27.546 --> 15:48.755\n所以讓人也合理的懷疑是不是要用在總統那裡的最後一年用這樣的方式來綁裝用這樣的錢來綁裝否則完全不合理啊我們大部分的預算編列在最後一年那請問是哪個天才想出來這樣子的一個方式來編這樣的預算您的懷疑我們會做合理的說明我請交通部內政部\n\n15:49.315 --> 16:00.789\n用這個數據跟委員做合理的說明我們地方政府確實需要有時間跟中央政府一起來合作這個跟綁裝不綁裝完全沒有關係那是不是可以在這邊請院長具體的承諾絕對不會用這筆錢來做政治綁裝不會\n\n16:05.715 --> 16:22.233\n那院長您今天具體承諾那我們就到時候來看看那當然這個部分我希望院長還有一個重要的問題我看到的這個部分就是這樣的一個感受為什麼會在最後一年那當然也請你們提出合理的說明\n\n16:23.534 --> 16:38.121\n然後另外就是我們現在看到的就是還有最近啊有很多地以前本來我們一些縣市政府都有在爭取這些人行道的一個改善的尤其是在學童在這個校園的附近最近呢大家不敢申請了你知道為什麼嗎院長知道嗎為什麼最近大家不敢申請不敢申請了為什麼\n\n16:45.629 --> 17:08.115\n因為是不是未來的錢回到地方去了不是是因為我們現在不管是中南部像我來自雲林縣雲林縣以前是五級的這個財力分級的縣市所以他只要自籌12%現在因為財化法的關係全部都變成一級了所以他現在要自籌80幾%你說怎麼做\n\n17:08.855 --> 17:35.300\n因為財化法就是把錢分給地方啊這樣你沒有辦法做啦為什麼他們就不會再來爭如果財化法把錢分給地方要中央負擔80%中央也沒有辦法做啊那你編列這400億要做什麼跟地方還是合作啊對嘛所以你就是要讓地方來申請嘛分擔的比例要調整其實我擔憂的是一個問題你知道嗎就是您看到的就是越窮的地方越沒有人行道越弱勢的孩子越危險為什麼因為本來財力五級的縣市\n\n17:38.462 --> 17:53.628\n他變成要變成一級的縣市所以他的要自籌八成多的一個他這個變化不是沒有原因的因為他有多比較多的統籌分配稅款他才會升級我現在是請教院長那請問你剛說要跟地方合作這400億那代表這400億不用那麼多囉\n\n17:54.508 --> 18:10.265\n可以砍掉一些囉所以我剛才只是要跟你們表達就是說因為這些比較窮的縣市它本來財力五級的縣市它就是因為有需要所以它才會用這樣的一個方式那如果我們現在把它回歸到說好它現在通常變一級的窮的還是窮啊\n\n18:11.747 --> 18:29.328\n那你說你真正有分配要給因為財化法分配給他們的數字真的有那麼多嗎因為你一般補助款你又拉回來啦所以於雲林縣來說其實我算過他今年度還少了28.3億一般補助款的部分中央地方全縣劃分的事情現在正由國發會還有政府院長\n\n18:30.209 --> 18:51.526\n那院長你就是說我們這筆情人的這個不需要四百億囉因為你都是地方自己處理就好啦原來的計畫是有那這跟地方怎麼去談合作未來可能用不同的所以我想告訴院長的是這個部分我覺得用才化法的這個把五級大家全部都變成一級對於本來五級的這個限制沒有第五級全部變成一級啊你說的可能是苗栗縣啊現在全部都是啊\n\n18:52.266 --> 19:11.152\n因為大家都變成正的啦全部都說你們因為財劃法之後都變成全部都變一級啊是不是請院長能夠我們可以把財劃法的分級表新的送給委員看那最後我再請教一下就請院長再把資料傳給登本辦然後再看一下就是這個有關\n\n19:12.813 --> 19:38.553\n我們面對中國大陸三無的船就是無船名無船舶證書無船級港的登記政府的處理態度是什麼就是我們面對中國大陸的三無船請問政府的處理態度是什麼船級的登記我們現在我們在講嘛中國大陸都一堆三無船來就忽然跑到我們的海域來啦有所謂的黑名單有黑名單我們會拒絕他禁止他進到我們的這個\n\n19:42.970 --> 20:00.996\n管轄範圍裡面那遇到三無船你們會不會強力取締如果他強力當然是進到海域來我們當然要強力取締你們會強力取締嗎好我現在來跟跟您探討一下就台灣沿岸最近有出現了這個一種也是三無的這個船就是波特船\n\n20:02.281 --> 20:17.147\n他只要裝上動力馬達就可以釣魚載客不用船舶檢查也不用進出港登記在任何岸邊都可以自由進出也不用裝設AIS然後在海上神出鬼沒這就是標準的三無船不但危險而且還有國安的一個問題\n\n20:18.047 --> 20:37.389\n那根據海委會113年3月因為他只統計到3月底啦我們可以看到這類的無牌照的小船的數量已經達到到113年3月就已經1442艘發生海難的事故也大概高達44件請問院長喔這種免牌照的小船到底歸誰管\n\n20:38.610 --> 20:52.335\n我們可以看到喔漁業捕撈算農業部休閒觀光算交通部國安管制算海委會運動發展算運動部請問一下院長你覺得這個這個波特船應該歸誰管\n\n20:55.855 --> 21:11.572\n這個最近海委會有增加的一些設備他們對這種小型船的查詢能力是增強的所以剛剛這裡是流布島你沒辦法查詢因為他沒有裝AIS啊所以你根本沒有辦法查啊那這種波特船我相信這個可以停在哪裡你知道嗎沒辦法\n\n21:13.273 --> 21:31.685\n因為他就到處亂停他完全沒有任何的一個就是比如說管制啊或者是說任何的要求他就是他想他自己想要他想要有他就有他想要出港他就出廣他想要出去就出去有這樣的一個狀況我們來看一下一個影片好不好請院長看一下\n\n21:41.638 --> 21:46.686\n整個海都黃了啦看魚啦這樣啦看這樣釣多少啦\n\n21:57.368 --> 22:19.176\n我們剛剛好這影片可以聽一下我們剛剛看到的是滿滿的海上都是波特船在那邊釣魚好那結果看到滿滿的漁獲那你覺得他有沒有可能就是拿來販賣呢絕對有可能因為他根本沒有管理結果剛剛講的剛剛請院長請教的就是說這個到底應該由誰管院長可以先回答我嗎剛講的這個\n\n22:21.363 --> 22:43.853\n波特船應該由誰來管這樣看起來他的行為是一種新興的行業不只喔很多年了不是新興的行業這可能不在你剛剛講的四個分類當中我們應該外部會來研究看看第一個基於國家的安全這已經研究很多年了國家的安全海域的安全走私這個已經院長我今天會提就是因為這個一般的漁民一直反映這已經研究很多年了\n\n22:44.093 --> 23:03.230\n那院長可不可以具體在這邊給我們承諾就是說在一個月內你們就可以把這個到底由誰管的這個主管機關能夠把它這個訂定下來好不好否則的話這樣一過去可能又是好多年了委員我們跨部會來加速進行這個管理制度可不可以在一個月內提出來目前已經有十個縣市政府他們有納管波特傳\n\n23:04.211 --> 23:25.241\n基本上我這邊想要請教院長可不可以在一個月之內建出來到底由誰管好嗎我會請我們負責國安的政委來協助來協調各部會我們跨部會來主持組成一個會議來討論第一個無法可管第二個就是說我們可以看到就是波特船你可以看到他幾乎所有都沒有\n\n23:26.281 --> 23:47.730\n專法納管沒有登錄沒有船編沒有漁獲回報沒有入出安全沒有裝設AS沒有這還有一個什麼問題你知道嗎就是它有可能利用這樣的一個波特船因為它沒有AS嘛它其實你偵測不到它可以利用來偷渡跟走私院長知道嗎我們之前在討論到船舶法跟商港法的修法過程已經有吧這個是我也\n\n23:49.532 --> 24:01.209\n山無船把它列進去的現在事實上也影響於有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是有辦法可以一個月內嗎否則的話一過去明年我要問一樣的問題\n\n24:07.399 --> 24:21.520\n好謝謝院長那就一個月內請你們再訂出第一個訂出組織機關第二個應該要競速訂管理專法可以嗎就剛剛講了其實沒有很多法不然船舶法各方面的法但是針對波特船這樣子的一個\n\n24:22.541 --> 24:38.655\n目前無法可管的這樣是不是可以訂定一個管理專法就比較需要更多的時間來考量但是以目前的機制來講我們已經有跨部會的好那就一個月內確定組織單位然後之後我們再來研究專法可以嗎我們已經送納月來審議了那如果這個部分我們需要在廣義定義上來做或是加一些強化的措施我們就來處理\n\n24:48.243 --> 25:07.648\n好,謝謝院長,希望能夠把波特傳這個亂象真正的現在把它剔除。那另外最後一個問題就是要請教你就是有關非洲豬瘟的,因為其實本席在最近有收到很多的養豬業者的陳情,他們都希望能夠禁用廚餘養豬。\n\n25:09.668 --> 25:34.443\n那當然目前發生的這樣的一個狀況剛剛我有聽到院長還有部長的一些回覆目前好像還沒有打算要禁用處於養豬那當然這也可能就是七年多前那時候的賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長擬擔任秘書長的時候的一個決定但是我覺得這個對養豬業者真的非常重要所以還是覺得院長應該要審慎來去思考禁用處於養豬\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.67,"end":2.672,"text":"謝謝韓院長我們請卓文泰卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":30.789,"end":47.809,"text":"學員好 院長好 院長我想請您先看一下這張稅入預算跟決算的一個比較表我們可以從這個表刻可以清楚的看到一個現象就是中央政府的稅入的這個決算數長期而且顯著的高於預算數"},{"start":48.49,"end":66.844,"text":"也就是中央政府其實每年的收入都被刻意的低估所以從這幾年的這個預算數跟決算數的相比您可以看到平均都高出3300億到4400億大概最多可以到將近20%所以這應該不是偶然的誤差而是長期制度性的這個低估"},{"start":67.364,"end":91.724,"text":"所以導致外界都沒有辦法準確的掌握這個國家財政的一個真相喔那這種做法呢就是可以製造出一種財政吃緊的一個假象讓政府有理由舉債啦或者是凍結部分的支出那又能夠在年度這個執行的之後用超徵或稅入高於預期的一個名義靈活的運用這些隱藏的收入所以請問院長造成政府稅入低估的原因是什麼"},{"start":92.344,"end":110.59,"text":"那這樣的一個故意的低估這些預留的款項到底是要保留給哪些特定的項目呢報告委員 稅入的決算數會比稅入的預算數高就不是超增兩個字是我們的時增數超過我們的預算數請問一下這樣子長期的被低估的狀況在115年稅入我們在編訂的時候已經請財政部能夠"},{"start":115.854,"end":134.144,"text":"横租过去的经验以及现在的经济的发展跟明年的预测已经大幅提高税入的一些115年度的这个税入的预算数其实比去年还低啊因为有两只有两兆8623亿啊第一是因为台化法的关系你挪出去的4000多亿才低的"},{"start":134.624,"end":162.265,"text":"那加上這個部分的話您可以看一下我們現在看到的就是說其實過去這從110年到113年來看到的其實就是有低估的大概將近20%左右請問一下部長這是什麼原因跟委員報告我們的預算數在籌編到最後的執行完畢大概將近有兩年的時間這兩年的時間其實有許多變化的因素但是這個變化好像也太大了"},{"start":163.51,"end":191.359,"text":"而且長期不是說偶爾一次那就是可能是財政部的低估的能力109年就沒有達到預算數109年的時候我現在是請教你110年到113年甚至到114年所以其實這個是會讓人家感受到就是說我們是刻意的去低估而造成我們沒有辦法好好的用這樣子一個財政的一個技術的一個會計技術來匡批我們立法院"},{"start":192.159,"end":196.577,"text":"就會有這樣的一個狀況那當然我們再看一下下一張表格請院長再看一下"},{"start":197.611,"end":215.225,"text":"在115年度的中央政府的總預算的稅入來圓別的一個編列情況喔就是您可以看一下稅客收入是預算數是2到4807億那紅色框框的部分呢就包含了所得稅、證交稅、關稅、貨物稅、營業稅加起來是2到4104億那請問一下703億跑到哪裡去了為什麼會出現這樣的落差請問院長"},{"start":226.735,"end":240.911,"text":"你看喔 你說客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億可是你下面只有五個項目嘛然後所以加起來是兩兆四千一百零四億少了七百零三億請問怎麼會出現這樣的落差請院長回答"},{"start":242.8,"end":254.915,"text":"計算的問題部長再說明可能連計算都計算錯吧一定是我們是合計數一定是各個稅務的相加呀對啊所以我現在加給你看啊結果看到只有兩兆4104億啊就少了703億啊請問是為什麼"},{"start":258.479,"end":271.991,"text":"我們編的是內地稅是2兆4807億的稅客對啊 是啊那這你下面就是編了這幾個這個分項嘛那到底是為什麼會有這樣的隱匿稅入的一個預算呢是到底是什麼樣造成這樣的一個問題"},{"start":274.436,"end":288.821,"text":"稅務裡面包含的有稅客收入我現在講的就是稅客收入稅客收入是兩兆四千八百零七億這個部分應該是全部的合計數可是這五項加起來只有兩兆四千一百零四億你的項目是不是涵蓋全部呢"},{"start":290.322,"end":304.59,"text":"那為什麼會出現這樣 我們是在依據你們的這個中央政府稅務來源別的編列情形表喔 表三之二 您可以看得到所以我們現在看到的狀況就是那是所得稅 證交稅 關稅 貨物稅 營業稅"},{"start":312.675,"end":327.267,"text":"我告訴你為什麼你知道嗎因為本來稅客收入是有九項你們只列了五項少了四項所以才會有這樣缺少的一個狀況所以這樣看起來你在編列預算的時候是不是有這種盈利這個收入的一個狀況那為什麼我們拿到的預算表是這樣咧"},{"start":331.03,"end":357.56,"text":"我不知道您的預算表上當然是我們在預算書看過去哪裡拿到的所以可能請院長針對這部分因為我看到這樣的預算表的時候我就覺得不可能是計算錯嘛當然要不然我要去哪裡編就是說這個部分我覺得當在編列上因為事實上如果我想有在銀行服務的人都知道少一塊錢都不能下班都不能都不能說自己拿一塊錢出來補"},{"start":358.28,"end":371.755,"text":"更何況是少那麼多錢所以這也很明顯的隱匿的一個狀況我們真的是有九項我剛剛就跟您講了應該有九項可是你列了五項那到底是什麼樣的原因我們再來看看"},{"start":373.297,"end":397.488,"text":"我們再來看看下一個就是我們有把115年度的稅務預算跟113年度的稅務決算進行比較因為114年度還沒出來所以為什麼我也拿這兩年比較是因為114年度的經濟成長率預估有5%115年度目前你們也預估有2.8%所以兩邊加起來可能會有7.8%的一個成長率理論上經濟成長了"},{"start":399.389,"end":415.049,"text":"那應該是我們的這個稅入應該會同步提高那所以說呢差了7.8億可是我們兩個一比較呢你可以看到目前在115年度的總預算當中有9個項目刻意被低估你可以看到這9個項目"},{"start":416.391,"end":440.612,"text":"就是移政稅低估36億 關稅短估140億貨物稅短估367億 證交稅短估380億證交稅短估25億 罰款及賠償收入短估80億規費收入短估18億 財政收入短估104億營業營餘跟收入短估164億 其他收入短估260億整個加起來的預估短估1574億"},{"start":443.72,"end":467.537,"text":"那請問一下在這個部分我們其實這種分箱低估收入的這種方式會讓我們整個的這個整體的財政規模會被人為的縮小也是對我們這個財政紀律的一個扭曲所以預算應該要實際反映國家的一個真實的狀況而不是刻意營造這種好像財政吃緊的一個狀況那請問一下短估的這一千照理說你經濟成長了7.8%不可能還減少1574億"},{"start":472.521,"end":484.77,"text":"所以這個短估的狀況到底是為什麼這樣看起來會讓我們覺得說好像是可以合理化的舉債或壓縮薪資甚至就是讓我們地方的補助變少那請問一下這樣子的一個狀況是為什麼"},{"start":486.878,"end":507.891,"text":"請部長說明當初我們這邊的時候我們逐項都有經過跟部長的討論跟比對那請部長詳細說明對 跟委員報告各個稅務我們都有不同的一個計算的基礎那也要看往年的一個收入情形還有要扣除大額特殊案件譬如說像疑政稅的話如果那一年有大額的計算所以這個要按"},{"start":508.271,"end":530.08,"text":"平常的來算我是想請教院長就是說照理說114 115年他經濟成長是應該是7你們預估7.8%但是呢我們的這個你們現在預估的稅率反而反而減少而且低估了這就1000光這幾項9項就低估了1574億了所以這到底是什麼樣的原因"},{"start":531.906,"end":553.916,"text":"沒有到那麼多我們的稅務沒有稅少到這麼少啊而且我們的中手稅是增加的除了扣掉那個才那個才化法扣除以外整合是增加的對 扣除才化我沒有加到這個部分啊那是在營業稅的部分嘛3544億現在變296億我也沒有講這個部分啊我現在指的是說你稅客收入是兩兆"},{"start":556.457,"end":578.724,"text":"預算數是2到8623億那針對這部分你就是短估了這些項目短估1574億所以說如果有了這1574億不管是軍人加薪的300億元或者是警消退休金額的這個退休金的這個大概抓50億元還有地方的一些補助其實有這1574億都可以做到啊"},{"start":579.907,"end":606.037,"text":"跟委員報告沒有所謂的短估那各個數據怎麼估算出來我們可以逐項跟委員做詳細的說明院長我想是不是應該要把一個我們這樣子的稅務預測的模型而且把短估的部分補正在預算當中因為不合理啦就是我的明明經濟成長這兩年加起來是增加了7.8%可是我的預算居然會減少1500多億這是非常不合理的"},{"start":606.497,"end":630.719,"text":"所以說是不是可以請院長能夠立即檢討我們115年度的這樣子的一個稅入預測的一個模型然後把短估補正於預算中委員如果從我們送的預算書上面來看到有這樣的數字的變化心中會有說疑慮那是難免所以也希望我們未來在審查預算的過程當中能夠讓財政部跟其他部合理的充分的跟委員做說明"},{"start":632.288,"end":646.538,"text":"這部分我也要拜託院長未來如果有像這樣子的稅務預算跟決算的差距超過3%的話是不是能夠就提出一個差異說明報告送到立法院來讓我們在審預算的時候不會有這麼多的疑慮"},{"start":647.778,"end":676.802,"text":"謝謝委員 這個提議我覺得應該很好好 謝謝院長所以我想這一個部分其實我們要的是整體的稅務能夠如實真實的編列在預算當中讓我們在立法院可以好好的來審查而不是用這樣的一個方式讓我們覺得看到預算社的時候嚇一跳短估那麼多然後告訴我們幫軍人加薪300億沒錢幫警消的50億沒錢其實你只要把短估的估回來是有辦法做到的"},{"start":677.899,"end":693.635,"text":"這部分再請院長 能夠請台北部門當時主項都有討論不至於出現短估的現象那這個問題我們會在審查預算目前看起來就是這樣他都應該是有過分析跟預估的所以將來在審查預算會充分向委員報告"},{"start":695.316,"end":715.466,"text":"來做這個質詢其實我做了很多的準備所以也把這列出來也跟您詳細的分析所以我相信剛剛講的這個應該我覺得在這個方面有很大的一個問題所以如果真的隱匿這樣子的話來欺騙立法院的話我們省這個預算就沒有什麼意義了不會欺騙立法院對那所以說請"},{"start":716.606,"end":737.527,"text":"請院長針對這個部分一定要審慎的嚴格的來去做一個這樣的一個把關我們會尊重剛剛委員那樣的提議未來做強化強力的說明謝謝那另外呢我們下一個議題是我們可以看到就是其實在2021年CNN在講說我們台灣是行人地獄的時候我們其實我相信大家都想要做這樣的一個"},{"start":739.421,"end":758.661,"text":"都想做這樣一個改善可是今年在8月31的時候德國媒體又出現了這樣一篇報導他說台灣每年因為交通事故死傷的人數超過美國911的恐攻的死亡總數所以也提醒外國的遊客來台灣的時候要三思"},{"start":759.542,"end":785.473,"text":"但這是非常沉重而且非常羞辱的一個國際評價那我也知道我們想要改善這樣的一個狀況所以呢行政院有核定了一個永續提升人行安全計畫400億那這400億呢其中在這個公務局有140億那在國土署有260億總共是這樣那我可以請這個院長看一下嗎他的經費分配數您看一下"},{"start":787.216,"end":809.127,"text":"在交通部負責140億前三年只編列38億剩下超過102億大概是超過七成全部集中在最後一年國土署在前三年只編列100億剩下159億在最後一年編列大概也超過六成"},{"start":809.787,"end":832.245,"text":"那我想請教一下行人安全計劃有六七成的預算是在最後一年才執行請問這樣子的一個預算分配合理嗎?院長請您先回答部長先說明一下我們的逐年計劃好跟委員報告好院長我先請教您針對我剛講的這樣在最後一年編列了六跟七成的部分您覺得合理嗎?迎您這樣直接的"},{"start":832.705,"end":853.85,"text":"是 我要分析他的逐年計畫因為一開始一定是比較少那中間一定有些規劃的過程那但最後一年是七成喔那就是說 請部長說明一下最後一年的執行力到底能不能把它完成起來報告員 其實我們交通部尤其公路局他們在執行的那個面向都超過這些預算啦我們有一些是用自己的公路局裡面的預算下去做"},{"start":854.31,"end":876.044,"text":"所以其實已經超過這個數額那最後一年確實就像院長剛剛所說的一開始的計畫會比較慢那後面我們會逐步來加強那有一些像內政部的部分等一下應該部長也會講跟地方政府的合作也要看地方政府申請的狀況對 但是您的這種編列的方式在最後一年七成耶"},{"start":876.96,"end":903.277,"text":"一般我們在做這樣的一個連續性的計畫不可能在最後一年編列七成的預算而且請跟院長看一下這個數字我可能要回去再查核一下因為實際上我記得明年很像不只是這個數額前幾年執行的沒有這麼少跟委員報告一下其實我們跟地方政府的合作都非常的好那地方政府如果送上來之後我們需要有時間去做規劃跟考核那請問一下部長這個數字正不正確你們前三年是編列37億對不對"},{"start":905.083,"end":926.336,"text":"有一点我需要再做确认院长其实有这样子的一个编列的方式只会让我们合理的怀疑第一个是不是行政效率太差所以都要集中在最后一年要不然就是116年是什么时间你知道吗就是总统大选的前一年"},{"start":927.546,"end":948.755,"text":"所以讓人也合理的懷疑是不是要用在總統那裡的最後一年用這樣的方式來綁裝用這樣的錢來綁裝否則完全不合理啊我們大部分的預算編列在最後一年那請問是哪個天才想出來這樣子的一個方式來編這樣的預算您的懷疑我們會做合理的說明我請交通部內政部"},{"start":949.315,"end":960.789,"text":"用這個數據跟委員做合理的說明我們地方政府確實需要有時間跟中央政府一起來合作這個跟綁裝不綁裝完全沒有關係那是不是可以在這邊請院長具體的承諾絕對不會用這筆錢來做政治綁裝不會"},{"start":965.715,"end":982.233,"text":"那院長您今天具體承諾那我們就到時候來看看那當然這個部分我希望院長還有一個重要的問題我看到的這個部分就是這樣的一個感受為什麼會在最後一年那當然也請你們提出合理的說明"},{"start":983.534,"end":998.121,"text":"然後另外就是我們現在看到的就是還有最近啊有很多地以前本來我們一些縣市政府都有在爭取這些人行道的一個改善的尤其是在學童在這個校園的附近最近呢大家不敢申請了你知道為什麼嗎院長知道嗎為什麼最近大家不敢申請不敢申請了為什麼"},{"start":1005.629,"end":1028.115,"text":"因為是不是未來的錢回到地方去了不是是因為我們現在不管是中南部像我來自雲林縣雲林縣以前是五級的這個財力分級的縣市所以他只要自籌12%現在因為財化法的關係全部都變成一級了所以他現在要自籌80幾%你說怎麼做"},{"start":1028.855,"end":1055.3,"text":"因為財化法就是把錢分給地方啊這樣你沒有辦法做啦為什麼他們就不會再來爭如果財化法把錢分給地方要中央負擔80%中央也沒有辦法做啊那你編列這400億要做什麼跟地方還是合作啊對嘛所以你就是要讓地方來申請嘛分擔的比例要調整其實我擔憂的是一個問題你知道嗎就是您看到的就是越窮的地方越沒有人行道越弱勢的孩子越危險為什麼因為本來財力五級的縣市"},{"start":1058.462,"end":1073.628,"text":"他變成要變成一級的縣市所以他的要自籌八成多的一個他這個變化不是沒有原因的因為他有多比較多的統籌分配稅款他才會升級我現在是請教院長那請問你剛說要跟地方合作這400億那代表這400億不用那麼多囉"},{"start":1074.508,"end":1090.265,"text":"可以砍掉一些囉所以我剛才只是要跟你們表達就是說因為這些比較窮的縣市它本來財力五級的縣市它就是因為有需要所以它才會用這樣的一個方式那如果我們現在把它回歸到說好它現在通常變一級的窮的還是窮啊"},{"start":1091.747,"end":1109.328,"text":"那你說你真正有分配要給因為財化法分配給他們的數字真的有那麼多嗎因為你一般補助款你又拉回來啦所以於雲林縣來說其實我算過他今年度還少了28.3億一般補助款的部分中央地方全縣劃分的事情現在正由國發會還有政府院長"},{"start":1110.209,"end":1131.526,"text":"那院長你就是說我們這筆情人的這個不需要四百億囉因為你都是地方自己處理就好啦原來的計畫是有那這跟地方怎麼去談合作未來可能用不同的所以我想告訴院長的是這個部分我覺得用才化法的這個把五級大家全部都變成一級對於本來五級的這個限制沒有第五級全部變成一級啊你說的可能是苗栗縣啊現在全部都是啊"},{"start":1132.266,"end":1151.152,"text":"因為大家都變成正的啦全部都說你們因為財劃法之後都變成全部都變一級啊是不是請院長能夠我們可以把財劃法的分級表新的送給委員看那最後我再請教一下就請院長再把資料傳給登本辦然後再看一下就是這個有關"},{"start":1152.813,"end":1178.553,"text":"我們面對中國大陸三無的船就是無船名無船舶證書無船級港的登記政府的處理態度是什麼就是我們面對中國大陸的三無船請問政府的處理態度是什麼船級的登記我們現在我們在講嘛中國大陸都一堆三無船來就忽然跑到我們的海域來啦有所謂的黑名單有黑名單我們會拒絕他禁止他進到我們的這個"},{"start":1182.97,"end":1200.996,"text":"管轄範圍裡面那遇到三無船你們會不會強力取締如果他強力當然是進到海域來我們當然要強力取締你們會強力取締嗎好我現在來跟跟您探討一下就台灣沿岸最近有出現了這個一種也是三無的這個船就是波特船"},{"start":1202.281,"end":1217.147,"text":"他只要裝上動力馬達就可以釣魚載客不用船舶檢查也不用進出港登記在任何岸邊都可以自由進出也不用裝設AIS然後在海上神出鬼沒這就是標準的三無船不但危險而且還有國安的一個問題"},{"start":1218.047,"end":1237.389,"text":"那根據海委會113年3月因為他只統計到3月底啦我們可以看到這類的無牌照的小船的數量已經達到到113年3月就已經1442艘發生海難的事故也大概高達44件請問院長喔這種免牌照的小船到底歸誰管"},{"start":1238.61,"end":1252.335,"text":"我們可以看到喔漁業捕撈算農業部休閒觀光算交通部國安管制算海委會運動發展算運動部請問一下院長你覺得這個這個波特船應該歸誰管"},{"start":1255.855,"end":1271.572,"text":"這個最近海委會有增加的一些設備他們對這種小型船的查詢能力是增強的所以剛剛這裡是流布島你沒辦法查詢 因為他沒有裝AIS啊所以你根本沒有辦法查啊那這種波特船我相信這個可以停在哪裡你知道嗎沒辦法"},{"start":1273.273,"end":1291.685,"text":"因為他就到處亂停他完全沒有任何的一個就是比如說管制啊或者是說任何的要求他就是他想他自己想要他想要有他就有他想要出港他就出廣他想要出去就出去有這樣的一個狀況我們來看一下一個影片好不好請院長看一下"},{"start":1301.638,"end":1306.686,"text":"整個海都黃了啦看魚啦這樣啦看這樣釣多少啦"},{"start":1317.368,"end":1339.176,"text":"我們剛剛好這影片可以聽一下我們剛剛看到的是滿滿的海上都是波特船在那邊釣魚好那結果看到滿滿的漁獲那你覺得他有沒有可能就是拿來販賣呢絕對有可能因為他根本沒有管理結果剛剛講的剛剛請院長請教的就是說這個到底應該由誰管院長可以先回答我嗎剛講的這個"},{"start":1341.363,"end":1363.853,"text":"波特船應該由誰來管這樣看起來他的行為是一種新興的行業不只喔 很多年了不是新興的行業這可能不在你剛剛講的四個分類當中我們應該外部會來研究看看第一個基於國家的安全這已經研究很多年了國家的安全 海域的安全 走私這個已經 院長我今天會提就是因為這個一般的漁民一直反映這已經研究很多年了"},{"start":1364.093,"end":1383.23,"text":"那院長可不可以具體在這邊給我們承諾就是說在一個月內你們就可以把這個到底由誰管的這個主管機關能夠把它這個訂定下來好不好否則的話這樣一過去可能又是好多年了委員我們跨部會來加速進行這個管理制度可不可以在一個月內提出來目前已經有十個縣市政府他們有納管波特傳"},{"start":1384.211,"end":1405.241,"text":"基本上我這邊想要請教院長可不可以在一個月之內建出來到底由誰管好嗎我會請我們負責國安的政委來協助來協調各部會我們跨部會來主持組成一個會議來討論第一個無法可管第二個就是說我們可以看到就是波特船你可以看到他幾乎所有都沒有"},{"start":1406.281,"end":1427.73,"text":"專法納管沒有 登錄沒有 船編沒有 漁獲回報沒有 入出安全沒有 裝設AS沒有這還有一個什麼問題你知道嗎就是它有可能利用這樣的一個波特船 因為它沒有AS嘛 它其實你偵測不到它可以利用來偷渡跟走私 院長知道嗎我們之前在討論到船舶法跟商港法的修法過程已經有吧 這個是我也"},{"start":1429.532,"end":1441.209,"text":"山無船 把它列進去的現在事實上也影響於有很大的一個問題所以針對這個部分是不是有辦法可以一個月內嗎否則的話一過去 明年我要問一樣的問題"},{"start":1447.399,"end":1461.52,"text":"好謝謝院長那就一個月內請你們再訂出第一個訂出組織機關第二個應該要競速訂管理專法可以嗎就剛剛講了其實沒有很多法不然船舶法各方面的法但是針對波特船這樣子的一個"},{"start":1462.541,"end":1478.655,"text":"目前無法可管的這樣是不是可以訂定一個管理專法就比較需要更多的時間來考量但是以目前的機制來講我們已經有跨部會的好 那就一個月內確定組織單位然後之後我們再來研究專法可以嗎我們已經送納月來審議了那如果這個部分我們需要在廣義定義上來做或是加一些強化的措施我們就來處理"},{"start":1488.243,"end":1507.648,"text":"好,謝謝院長,希望能夠把波特傳這個亂象真正的現在把它剔除。那另外最後一個問題就是要請教你就是有關非洲豬瘟的,因為其實本席在最近有收到很多的養豬業者的陳情,他們都希望能夠禁用廚餘養豬。"},{"start":1509.668,"end":1534.443,"text":"那當然目前發生的這樣的一個狀況剛剛我有聽到院長還有部長的一些回覆目前好像還沒有打算要禁用處於養豬那當然這也可能就是七年多前那時候的賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長擬擔任秘書長的時候的一個決定但是我覺得這個對養豬業者真的非常重要所以還是覺得院長應該要審慎來去思考禁用處於養豬"},{"start":1552.841,"end":1553.029,"text":"謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":693,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（17時19分）謝謝韓院長，我們請卓榮泰院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：院長好。院長，我想請您先看一下這張歲入預算跟決算的比較表，我們可以從這個表格清楚地看到一個現象，就是中央政府歲入的決算數長期而且顯著的高於預算數，也就是中央政府每年的收入都被刻意的低估。從這幾年的預算數跟決算數相比，您可以看到，平均都高出3,300億到4,400億，大概最多可以到將近20%，所以這應該不是偶然的誤差，而是長期制度性的低估，因而導致外界都沒有辦法準確的掌握國家財政的真相。這種作法可以製造出一種財政吃緊的假象，讓政府有理由舉債或是凍結部分的支出，又能夠在年度執行了之後，用超徵或歲入高於預期的名義，靈活的運用這些隱藏的收入。請問院長，造成政府歲入低估的原因是什麼？這樣故意的低估，這些預留的款項到底是要保留給哪些特定的項目呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，歲入的決算數比歲入的預算數高，這不是「超徵」兩個字，是我們的實徵數超過我們的預算數，每年執行的……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，這樣子長期被低估的狀況……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們在編定115年歲入的時候，已經請財政部衡諸過去的經驗、現在的經濟發展以及明年的預測，大幅提高了歲入的預算數。"],["許委員宇甄：你說115年度的歲入預算數，其實比去年還低，因為只有2兆8,623億啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：低是因為財劃法的關係，您挪出去了四千多億才低的……"],["許委員宇甄：是，那加上這個部分的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果加上的話是很高的。"],["許委員宇甄：是。您可以看一下，從過去110年到113年以來看到的其實就是低估了大概將近20%左右。請問一下部長，這是什麼原因？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們的預算數從籌編到最後執行完畢，大概將近有兩年的時間，這兩年的時間其實有許多變化的因素，所以在……"],["許委員宇甄：但是這個變化好像也太大了。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道，那當然我們也持續地……"],["許委員宇甄：而且長期，不是只有偶爾一次，那就可能是財政部的……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，109年……"],["許委員宇甄：低估的這個能力喔……"],["莊部長翠雲：109年就沒有達到預算數，109年的時候我們的稅課收入……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在是請教您110年到113年，甚至到114年……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這幾年因為……"],["許委員宇甄：所以其實這個會讓人家感受到的是，我們是刻意地去低估，而造成我們沒有辦法好好的……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有刻意，然後當然在估測的技術上，我們也持續地精進。"],["許委員宇甄：用這樣子的財政技術、會計技術來誆騙我們立法院……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會持續地精進。"],["許委員宇甄：就會有這樣的狀況。","我們再看下一張表格，請院長再看一下115年度中央政府總預算歲入來源別編列情況，稅課收入的預算數是2兆4,807億，紅色框框的部分就包含了所得稅、證交稅、關稅、貨物稅、營業稅，加起來是2兆4,104億，請問一下，703億跑到哪裡去了，為什麼會出現這樣的落差？請問院長。"],["莊部長翠雲：703億？什麼703億？"],["許委員宇甄：你看喔，你的稅課收入是2兆4,807億，可是你下面只有五個項目嘛，加起來是2兆4,104億，所以少了703億，請問怎麼會出現這樣的落差？請院長回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：可能是計算的問題，請部長再說明。"],["許委員宇甄：不可能連計算都計算錯吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們的合計數一定是各個稅目相加……"],["卓院長榮泰：可能是數字的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，所以我現在加給你看，結果我看到只有2兆4,104億，就少了703億，請問是為什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們編的內地稅是2兆4,807億的稅課收入。"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，是啊，你下面就是編列這幾個分項，到底為什麼會有這樣隱匿歲入的預算呢？到底是怎麼樣才造成這樣的問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：歲入裡面包含的有稅課收入跟非稅課收入……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在講的就是稅課收入。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，稅課收入是2兆4,807億，這個部分應該是全部的合計數……"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，可是我這五項加起來只有2兆4,104億啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊，你的項目是不是涵蓋全部呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：它只有五項，我們這裡項目比較多喔。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為稅課……"],["許委員宇甄：對，那為什麼會出現這樣的狀況，我們是依據你們的中央政府歲入來源別編列情形表的表3-2，您可以看得到。所以我們現在看到的狀況就是……"],["莊部長翠雲：它的下面是到哪一個稅啊？菸酒稅以下。"],["卓院長榮泰：它是所得稅、證交稅、關稅、貨物稅、營業稅……"],["莊部長翠雲：關稅，我們還有貨物稅、遺贈稅，還有證交稅、期交稅，還有特銷稅……"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我告訴你為什麼你知道嗎？因為本來稅課收入是有九項，你們只列了五項，少了四項……"],["卓院長榮泰：這裡有九項啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啊！"],["許委員宇甄：所以才會有這樣缺少的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：有九項啊！"],["許委員宇甄：所以這樣看起來，你在編列預算的時候是不是有這種隱匿收入的狀況？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會有隱匿，我們的預算表很清楚，所有的稅課收入都會在。"],["許委員宇甄：那為什麼我們拿到的預算表是這樣咧？"],["莊部長翠雲：我不知道您的預算表怎樣……"],["許委員宇甄：當然是我們在預算書看到的，不然是哪裡拿到的。所以可能請院長針對這部分，因為我看到這樣的預算表的時候，我只覺得不可能是計算錯嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：你這是預算書裡面的表格嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：當然啊，要不然我要去哪裡編？"],["卓院長榮泰：那部長再看一下，如果有錯誤，我們必須去勘正……"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我看一下裡面……"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分我覺得在編列上，因為事實上，我想有在銀行服務過的人都知道，少一塊錢都不能下班、都不能說自己拿一塊錢出來補，更何況是少那麼多錢，所以這有很明顯的隱匿狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這裡是有9項，怎麼預算書會……"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛就跟你講了，應該要有9項，可是你們只列了5項，到底是什麼樣的原因？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再來看一下您那份的資料，謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["許委員宇甄：我們再來看看下一個，我們把115年度歲入預算跟113年度歲入決算進行比較，因為114年度還沒出來，為什麼我會拿這兩年比較呢？是因為114年度的經濟成長率預估有5%；115年度，目前你們也預估有2.8%，所以兩邊加起來可能會有7.8%的成長率。理論上，經濟成長了，我們的歲入應該會同步提高。可是我們兩個一比較後，您可以看到目前在115年度的總預算當中，有9個項目刻意被低估，您可以看到是這9個項目，即遺贈稅低估36億、關稅短估140億、貨物稅短估367億、證交稅短估380億、期貨交易稅短估25億、罰款及賠償收入短估80億、規費收入短估18億、財產收入短估104億、營業盈餘跟事業收入短估164億、其他收入短估260億，整個加起來短估1,574億。","請問一下，在這個部分，這種分項低估收入的方式，讓我們整體的財政規模會被人為縮小，也是對我們財政紀律的扭曲，所以預算應該要實際反映國家真實的狀況，而不是刻意營造這種好像財政吃緊的狀況，照理說經濟成長了7.8%，不可能還減少1,574億嘛！所以這個短估的狀況到底是為什麼？這樣看起來會讓我們覺得好像是可以合理化的舉債或壓縮薪資，甚至讓地方的補助變少。請問一下這樣的狀況是為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初我們在編的時候，我們逐項都有跟部長經過討論跟比對，再請部長詳細說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，跟委員報告，各個稅目我們都有不同的計算基礎，也要看往年的收入情形，還有要扣除大額特殊案件，譬如說像遺贈稅，如果那一年有大額的繼承……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道，部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個要按平常的來算……"],["許委員宇甄：我只想請教院長，照理說114、115年的經濟成長率，你們預估7.8%，但是你們現在預估的歲入反而減少，光這9項就低估1,574億，這到底是什麼樣的原因？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有到這麼多，我們的稅沒有少到這麼少啊！而且綜所稅是增加的，除了財劃法扣除以外，總額數是增加的啊！"],["許委員宇甄：對！扣除財劃法，我沒有加到這個部分啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["許委員宇甄：那是在營業稅的部分，本來是3,544億，現在變296億，我也沒有講這個部分啊！我現在指的是，稅課收入是2兆4,807億，預算數是2兆8,623億，針對這個部分、這些項目你就是短估了1,574億。所以說，如果有了這1,574億，不管是軍人加薪的300億元，或者是警消退休金大概抓50億元，還有地方的一些補助，其實有這1,574億都可以做到啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，沒有所謂的短估，至於各個數據怎麼估算出來，我們可以逐項跟委員做詳細地說明。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我想是不是應該要加入歲入預測的模型，而且把短估的部分補正在預算當中，因為不合理啦！明明經濟成長，這兩年加起來增加7.8%，可是我的預算居然會減少一千五百多億，這是非常不合理的，是不是可以請院長能夠立即檢討115年度的歲入預測模型，然後把短估補正於預算中。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員如果從我們送的預算書上面看到有這樣的數字變化，心中會有疑慮，那是難免，也希望我們未來在審查預算的過程當中，能夠讓財政部跟其他部會合理、充分的跟委員說明。"],["許委員宇甄：對！針對這個部分我也要拜託院長，未來如果有像這樣的歲入預算跟決算差距超過3%的話，是不是能夠提出一個差異說明報告送到立法院，讓我們在審預算的時候，不會有這麼多的疑慮，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個提議我覺得應該很好。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝院長。所以我想這一個部分，其實我們要的是整體歲入能夠如實、真實的編列在預算當中，讓我們在立法院可以好好的來審查，而不是用這樣的方式，讓我們覺得看到預算書的時候嚇一跳，短估那麼多，然後告訴我們幫軍人加薪300億沒錢、幫警消的50億沒錢，其實你只要把短估的估回來，是有辦法做到的，這部分再請院長能夠請財政部門……"],["卓院長榮泰：當時逐項都有討論，不至於出現短估的現象，這個問題我們會在審查預算……"],["許委員宇甄：目前看起來就是這樣，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：它都應該是有過分析跟預估的，所以將來在審查預算會充分向委員報告。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我今天為了來做這個質詢，其實我做了很多的準備。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：所以也把這列出來跟您詳細的分析，所以我相信剛剛講的應該我覺得在這個方面有很大的問題，所以如果真的隱匿來欺騙立法院的話，我們審這個預算就沒有什麼意義了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不會欺騙立法院。"],["許委員宇甄：所以請院長針對這個部分一定要審慎的、嚴格的來做這樣的把關。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會尊重剛剛委員的提議，會來做強力的說明。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。另外，下一個議題我們可以看到，其實2021年CNN在講我們臺灣是行人地獄的時候，我相信大家都想要改善。可是今年8月31日的時候，德國媒體又出現了這樣一篇報導，他說臺灣每年因為交通事故死傷人數超過美國911恐攻的死亡總數，所以也提醒外國遊客來臺灣的時候要三思，這是非常沉重而且非常羞辱的一個國際評價。我也知道我們想要改善這樣的狀況，所以行政院有核定了一個永續提升人行安全計畫400億，這400億其中在公路局有140億，在國土署有260億，總共是這樣，我可以請院長看一下嗎？它的經費分配數您看一下，交通部負責140億，前三年只編列38億，剩下超過102億大概是超過七成全部集中在最後一年；國土署在前三年只編列100億，剩下159億在最後一年編列，大概也超過六成。我想請教一下行人安全計畫有六、七成的預算是在最後一年才執行，請問這樣的預算分配合理嗎？院長，請您先回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長先說明一下我們的逐年計畫。"],["陳部長世凱：好，跟委員報告……"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我先請教您針對我剛剛講的這樣，在最後一年編列了六及七成的部分，您覺得合理嗎？以您這樣直接的……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，要分析它的逐年計畫，因為一開始一定是比較少，中間一定有些規劃的過程。"],["許委員宇甄：但是最後一年剩七成喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下最後一年的執行力到底能不能把它完成起來。"],["許委員宇甄：好。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實交通部，尤其是公路局他們在執行的面向都超過這些預算，我們有一些是用公路局自己裡面的預算下去做，所以其實已經超過這個數額，最後一年確實就像院長剛剛所說的，一開始的計畫會比較慢，後面我們會逐步來加強，有一些像內政部的部分，等一下應該部長也會講，跟地方政府的合作也要看地方政府申請的狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是您的這種編列的方式在最後一年七成耶！一般我們在做這樣的連續性計畫，不可能在最後一年編列七成的預算，而且請院長看一下……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個數字我可能要回去再查核一下，因為實際上我記得明年很像不只是這個數額。"],["卓院長榮泰：比這個還要多。"],["陳部長世凱：對、對、對，前幾年執行的沒有這麼少。"],["許委員宇甄：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告一下，其實我們跟地方政府的合作都非常好，地方政府如果送上來之後，我們需要有時間去做規劃及考核。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下部長，這個數字正不正確？你們前三年是編列37億對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我需要再做確認。"],["許委員宇甄：好。院長其實這樣子的編列方式只會讓我們合理的懷疑，第一個，是不是行政效率太差，所以都要集中在最後一年？要不然就是，116年是什麼時間，你知道嗎？就是總統大選的前一年，所以讓人也合理懷疑是不是要在總統大選的最後一年用這樣的錢來綁樁？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有這樣子的考量。"],["許委員宇甄：否則完全不合理，我們大部分的預算編列在最後一年，請問是哪個天才想出來這樣的方式來編這樣的預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您誤會了，您的懷疑我們會做合理的說明，我請交通部、內政部用這個數據跟委員做合理的說明，會後我們再說明。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，地方政府確實需要有時間跟中央政府一起來合作，這跟綁樁不綁樁完全沒有關係，而是人行道上的安全與否……"],["許委員宇甄：是不是可以在這邊請院長具體承諾絕對不會用這筆錢來做政治綁樁？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，您今天具體承諾，我們就到時候來看看，當然這個部分我希望……院長，還有一個重要的問題……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這些錢是做人行道，不太會綁樁，都是在做人行道……"],["許委員宇甄：我看到這個部分就是這樣的感受啊，為什麼會在最後一年？當然也請你們提出合理的說明。"],["陳部長世凱：這是做人行道，不是綁樁……"],["許委員宇甄：另外，以前一些縣市政府本來都有在爭取人行道的改善，尤其是在學童、在校園的附近，可是最近大家不敢申請了，你知道為什麼嗎？院長知道為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：最近大家不敢申請？"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，不敢申請了，為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是未來的錢回到地方去了？"],["許委員宇甄：不是。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["許委員宇甄：是因為現在不管是中南部，像我來自雲林縣，雲林縣以前是第五級的財力分級縣市，所以它只要自籌12%，現在因為財劃法的關係全部都變成第一級了，所以它現在要自籌百分之八十幾，你說怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為財劃法就是把錢分給地方。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣就沒有辦法做啦，為什麼？他們就不會再來爭取。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果財劃法把錢分給地方，又要中央負擔80%，中央也沒有辦法做啊。"],["許委員宇甄：那請問一下，院長，你編列的這400億要做什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：還是跟地方合作。"],["許委員宇甄：對嘛，所以你就是要讓地方來申請嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊，分擔的比例要調整。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，其實我擔憂的是一個問題，你知道嗎？就是越窮的地方越沒有人行道，越弱勢的孩子越危險，為什麼？因為本來財力第五級的縣市變成第一級的縣市，所以它要自籌八成多的自籌款……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個變化不是沒有原因的，因為它多了比較多的統籌分配稅款，所以才會升級。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在是請教院長，請問你剛剛說要跟地方合作這400億，代表這400億不用那麼多，可以砍掉一些囉？所以我剛剛只是在跟您表達，就是因為這些比較窮的縣市，本來是財力第五級的縣市，它就是因為有需要，所以才會用這樣的方式，如果我們現在把它回歸，現在通通變成第一級了，窮的還是窮啊。好，那你說現在因為財劃法的關係，但你分配給他們的數字真的有那麼多嗎？因為一般補助款你又拉回來了，所以以雲林縣來說，其實我算過，它今年度還少了28.3億。"],["卓院長榮泰：一般補助款的部分，中央、地方權限劃分的事情，現在正由國發會還有正副院長在做最後統籌當中。"],["許委員宇甄：院長就是說這筆人行安全的部分不需要400億囉？因為都是地方自己處理就好。"],["卓院長榮泰：原來的計畫是有，跟地方怎麼去談合作，未來可能用不同的財務分擔。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我想告訴院長的是，這個部分我覺得依財劃法把第五級的全部都變成第一級，對於本來第五級的縣市……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有第五級全部變成第一級啊，你說的可能是苗栗縣。"],["許委員宇甄：現在全部都是啊，因為大家都變成正的啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪有第五級變成……"],["許委員宇甄：全部都是，你們說因為新的財劃法施行之後全部都變成第一級啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：不可能全部第五級變成第一級，這個訊息不正確喔，沒有全部……"],["許委員宇甄：是不是請院長能夠……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以把新的財劃法分級表送給委員看。"],["許委員宇甄：好，就請院長再把資料傳給本辦。","最後，我再請教一下，有關我們面對中國大陸三無的船，就是無船名、無船舶證書、無船籍港登記，政府的處理態度是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：什麼？"],["許委員宇甄：就是我們面對中國大陸的三無船，請問政府的處理態度是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：船籍的登記？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在有所謂的……"],["許委員宇甄：不是，我們現在在講嘛，中國大陸都一堆三無船就忽然跑到我們的海域來啦，針對這個部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：有所謂的黑名單。"],["許委員宇甄：政府的態度是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會禁止它進到我們的管轄範圍裡面。"],["許委員宇甄：遇到三無船，你們會不會強力取締？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果它違反我們的規定……"],["許委員宇甄：當然是進到我們的海域來。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然要強力取締。"],["許委員宇甄：你們會強力取締嘛。好，我現在來跟您探討一下，臺灣沿岸最近有出現了這一種船，也是三無的船，就是波特船，它只要裝上動力馬達就可以釣魚、載客，不用船舶檢查，也不用進出港登記，在任何岸邊都可以自由進出，也不用裝設AIS，然後在海上神出鬼沒，這就是標準的三無船，不但危險，而且還有國安的問題。根據海委會統計至113年3月……因為它只統計到3月底，我們可以看到這類的無牌照小船數量到113年3月已經達到1,442艘，發生海難的事故也高達44件。","請問院長，這種免牌照的小船到底歸誰管？我們可以看到，漁業捕撈算農業部，休閒觀光算交通部，國安管制算海委會，運動發展算運動部。請問一下院長，你覺得這個波特船應該歸誰管？"],["卓院長榮泰：最近海委會有增加了一些設備，他們對這種小型船的察覺能力是增強的，所以剛剛這裡是劉部長，現在請的是管主委……"],["許委員宇甄：你沒辦法察覺是因為它沒有裝AIS，所以你根本沒有辦法查，這種波特船可以停在哪裡，你知道嗎？沒辦法管耶，因為它是到處亂停，因為它完全沒有任何管制或者任何要求，它想要有就有、它想要出港就出港、它想要出去就出去，有這樣的一個狀況。","我們來看一個影片，好不好？請院長看一下。","（播放影片）"],["許委員宇甄：我們剛剛看到是海上滿滿都是波特船在那邊釣魚，結果看到滿滿的漁獲，那你覺得他有沒有可能拿來販賣呢？絕對有可能，因為它根本沒有管理，如同我剛剛講的、剛剛向院長請教的就是，這個到底應該由誰管？院長可以先回答我嗎？剛剛講的這個波特船應該由誰來管？"],["卓院長榮泰：看起來他的行為是一種新興的行業。"],["許委員宇甄：不只，很多年了，不是新興的行業！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這可能不在你剛剛講的4個分類當中……"],["許委員宇甄：對，那院長你覺得應該由誰管？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應該跨部會來研究看看，第一個基於國家的安全……"],["許委員宇甄：這已經研究很多年了。"],["卓院長榮泰：國家的安全、海域的安全、走私查緝，這個我們來處理。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我今天會提就是因為一般漁民一直反映，這已經研究很多年了，院長可不可以具體在這邊給我們承諾，在一個月內你們就可以把這個到底由誰管的主管機關訂定下來，好不好？否則的話，這樣一過去可能又是好多年了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們跨部會來加速進行這個管理機制……"],["許委員宇甄：可不可以在一個月內提出來？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前已經有10個縣市政府有納管波特船，基本上以現行的法律，權責在地方政府……"],["許委員宇甄：我這邊想要請教院長，可不可以在一個月之內訂出來到底由誰管，好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們目前輔導了10個縣市政府有納管。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請我們負責國安的政委來協助協調各部會，我們跨部會主持一個會議來討論。"],["許委員宇甄：第一個，無法可管；第二個，您可以看到波特船幾乎所有都沒有，專法納管沒有、登錄沒有、船編沒有、漁獲回報沒有、入出安檢沒有、裝設AIS也沒有。這還有一個什麼問題，你知道嗎？就是他有可能利用這樣的波特船，因為它沒有AIS，其實你偵測不到，他可以利用來偷渡跟走私，院長知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：特別跟委員報告，我們之前在討論船舶法跟商港法的修法過程，已經有把三無船列進去了，這個可能是……"],["許委員宇甄：波特船現在事實上也是影響漁民很大的一個問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：在範圍、定義上，我們把它鎖定。"],["許委員宇甄：所以針對這個部分是不是有辦法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們來加速，好不好？因為已經在討論的過程中，我們來加速。"],["許委員宇甄：可以一個月內嗎？否則的話，一過去馬上明年我又要問一樣的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：那就一個月內請你們，第一個，訂出主責機關；第二個，應該要儘速訂管理專法，可以嗎？就是剛剛講的，其實你們有很多法，不管是船舶法、各方面法，但是針對波特船這樣子目前無法可管的是不是可以訂定一個管理專法？"],["管主任委員碧玲：報告委員，管理專法的話就比較需要更多的時間來考量，但是以目前的機制來講，我們已經有跨部會的……"],["許委員宇甄：好，那就一個月內確定主責單位，之後我們再來研究專法，可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們主要的方向在於……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛說的船舶法、商港法我們已經送大院審議了，如果這個部分我們需要在定義上來做或是加一些其他強化的措施，我們就來處理這件事情、跨部會處理。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝院長，希望能夠把波特船這個亂象真正的剔除。","最後一個問題要請教你有關非洲豬瘟，本席最近有收到很多養豬業者的陳情，他們都希望能夠禁用廚餘養豬。目前發生這樣一個狀況，剛剛我也聽到院長還有部長的一些回復，目前好像還沒有打算要禁用廚餘養豬，當然這也可能就是七年多前，那時候我們的賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長擔任秘書長時的一個決定，但是我覺得這個對養豬業者真的非常重要，所以還是覺得院長應該要審慎來思考禁用廚餘養豬，我代表我們廣大的養豬業者。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經從兩千多戶減少到四百多戶了，現在還有技術上的改進，我們從它的轉型跟輔導來做，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：請院長在這個部分好好來要求我們的養豬業者。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我們還是具體主張禁用廚餘養豬。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們會以安全為原則，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請最有出息的王世堅委員質詢。王委員質詢之後，我們會休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","許智傑","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李昆澤","王正旭","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","沈發惠","許宇甄","王世堅","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-31"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00008"}}}