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\"text\": \"那我請教 這個問題呢 金門要做一個腫瘤中心啊總統在三軍訪問中心要設一個腫瘤中心在澎湖讓癌症的病患可以在地治療 離島的問題都是一樣的金門也是一樣啊 金門現在都沒有啊每一年 去年有800多位鄉親申請癌症的醫療交通\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 535.54, \"end\": 535.68, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 535.68, \"end\": 535.96, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 535.96, \"end\": 536.841, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 536.841, \"end\": 537.281, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 537.281, \"end\": 537.501, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 537.501, \"end\": 537.661, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 537.661, \"end\": 537.761, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 537.761, \"end\": 538.082, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"腫\"}, {\"word\": \"瘤\", \"start\": 538.082, \"end\": 538.222, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 538.222, \"end\": 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553.591, \"end\": 555.132, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"親\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 555.132, \"end\": 555.532, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"癌\", \"start\": 555.532, \"end\": 555.732, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"症\", \"start\": 555.732, \"end\": 555.872, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 555.872, \"end\": 556.252, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"療\"}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 556.252, \"end\": 556.433, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 556.433, \"end\": 556.453, \"score\": 0.983}]}, {\"start\": 557.433, \"end\": 578.109, \"text\": \"補助800多位去113來我講完然後呢每一個人到這裡來治療要住宿要交通要對不對5到10萬都要錢嘛是不是那我們去年就我舊奶婆是去年我舊奶婆就一直講啊新政府也一直講啊以前我也問過蘇貞昌院長為何不一直在評估啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 557.433, \"end\": 558.134, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 558.134, \"end\": 558.294, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": 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\"治\", \"start\": 562.817, \"end\": 563.318, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"療\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 563.318, \"end\": 563.538, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 563.538, \"end\": 563.738, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"宿\", \"start\": 563.738, \"end\": 563.918, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 563.918, \"end\": 564.118, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 564.118, \"end\": 564.358, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 564.358, \"end\": 564.639, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 564.639, \"end\": 566.86, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 566.86, \"end\": 567.02, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 567.02, \"end\": 567.901, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 567.901, \"end\": 568.021, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 568.021, \"end\": 568.321, 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我們最主要就是你先不要插嘴我把它講完在2013年9月以後全部都是走私你不要插嘴我把它講完如果走私請用走私條例去辦他們你們現在辦的這些人可是議區兩岸人民關係條例有兩岸人民關係條例你先聽我講一下好嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1047.902, \"end\": 1048.042, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1048.042, \"end\": 1048.242, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1048.242, \"end\": 1048.502, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 1048.502, \"end\": 1049.223, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"騷\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1049.223, \"end\": 1049.463, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 1049.463, \"end\": 1049.723, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1049.723, \"end\": 1050.023, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1050.023, \"end\": 1050.303, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1050.303, \"end\": 1050.424, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 1050.424, \"end\": 1050.584, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1050.584, \"end\": 1050.744, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"走\", 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\"end\": 1585.638, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 1585.638, \"end\": 1585.718, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"珍\", \"start\": 1585.718, \"end\": 1585.859, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1585.859, \"end\": 1585.979, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1585.979, \"end\": 1586.059, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 1586.059, \"end\": 1586.159, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1586.159, \"end\": 1586.179, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,351 --> 00:00:11,617\n來謝謝主席我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢院長\n\n2\n00:00:25,951 --> 00:00:35,956\n因為我知道你等一下有事情如果我的問題多是名聲議題你可以很簡單明快的回答說不定我們也用不到25分鐘這個連續假期的時候金門以前連續假期都這個\n\n3\n00:00:41,379 --> 00:01:05,291\n颱風啊起霧的時候金門大家常看新聞金門都是這個像去金門大家都說是金門三日遊變關島五日遊然後就非常辛苦對我們觀光形象影響也很大那時候也都三節的時候也都很難拿到票很難買到票居民啊連居民也很難買到票那我們居民要提早去定位啊好像搶票非常辛苦那連續假期連節說要返鄉我們有時候說這個\n\n4\n00:01:09,033 --> 00:01:34,428\n好這個你們要解決希望你們解決但是現在啊事情已經嚴重到不是連續假期才發生了我想昨天總統去這個澎湖你們有沒有看到相關的新聞賴總統去澎湖的事情有看到嗎對不起前幾天去澎湖啦澎湖發生了就是說連續假期喔平日現在不只平日連機票也買不到金門也是一樣啊現在連平日連一張機票也買不到\n\n5\n00:01:35,827 --> 00:02:00,647\n這個機票這個東西多重要這個交通啊在觀光客來講他是觀光旅遊在當地老百姓來講是基本人權啊行是一個基本人權更何況澎湖跟馬祖有船啊我們基本還沒有客輪可以到臺灣來啊我讓你看一下你看新馬澎湖之前上次我直訓的時候院長您說要研究對吧讓金門有一條新金門輪吧現在進度怎麼樣一年了\n\n6\n00:02:01,588 --> 00:02:19,873\n部長說明跟委員報告因為院長有交代我們還是希望說朝向這個藍色公路就是用國家用航港局他們來建設你們這個金門輪未來金門有需要或馬祖有需要沒有需要嗎有需要的時候就可以去支援你研究結果金門有沒有需要\n\n7\n00:02:20,663 --> 00:02:41,860\n都有需要那什麼時候要幫我們開始做如果由一個縣來養一艘船會非常的辛苦澎湖跟馬祖都有啦新台馬輪跟澎湖輪都有金門沒有我清楚但是您在金門應該也很了解一般如果我們要用客輪的話大家其實比較不喜歡啦有些還是希望飛機嘛那現在連飛機也沒位子啊\n\n8\n00:02:42,580 --> 00:02:54,988\n那船的部分我們現在正在建置藍色公路那沒關係我知道航空局長跟我講過啦所以請問你這個什麼時候會研究出來什麼時候可以開始實行這個藍色公路這一段那什麼時候可以開始什麼時候編預算\n\n9\n00:02:59,332 --> 00:03:16,645\n就是1102022年的預算編進去喔準備要買船但是船需要兩三年的這個購置的期間沒關係你已經有編制預算了嘛編那個預算要做這個新就是藍色公路這個金門啊花蓮這些備援的嘛我們今年藍色公路雖然還沒有買到船但是我們用租船的方式已經開始在走在養育量沒有\n\n10\n00:03:17,285 --> 00:03:18,566\n4點多就有100多個人在排後部\n\n11\n00:03:42,110 --> 00:04:05,366\n凌晨四點喔現在這個情形已經快變成每天的情形了我那天到機場後來我到機場去的時候五六點的時候這種互補很嚴重啊排不到位子不是說去觀光旅遊啊是回家回家也不是說是普通上班回家這種回家我在那邊的時候有個阿嬤她九十一歲啦她女兒七十一歲開出病危通知她沒有辦法回家看她女兒一九十一歲她女兒七十一歲\n\n12\n00:04:10,902 --> 00:04:36,065\n等不到機會就是等不到機會因為每一班都是客滿都是客滿的沒有位子我們還在那邊協助啊那他的其他的那個那些那個女生的那個兄弟姐妹也要一起回去因為他那個就是他的女兒已經開病危了回不去啊那那個前一天晚上那一天晚上好幾組我實在是那一天晚上那前一天晚上經過一個女教師發生車禍啊半夜被車酒駕的撞死\n\n13\n00:04:37,335 --> 00:05:05,873\n哥哥姊姊家人在台灣哥哥姊姊要回去幫忙去地檢署辦那個香宴啊什麼辦後事啊辦什麼沒有辦法回去沒有飛機位這個情形現在幾乎每天在發生啊要回去奔喪的要到台灣癌症要開刀什麼都沒有飛機位那總統前一天去澎湖說澎湖現在也是發生了說一票燃酒金門也是一樣啊那總統說他答應澎湖要幫澎湖解決那我昨天講這個也是很重要的事情你可以答應我幫金門解決嗎\n\n14\n00:05:06,738 --> 00:05:23,963\n我們一起努力幫金門解決如果有這麼多的回家或是旅客表示這個市場是活絡的你知道金門這個航線台金航線的載客率去年有多少嗎那航空公司的部分我們應該要去協調有多少你知道嗎我跟你講85%這個還不包括如果沒有飛機的時候你看旁邊那個顧立雄幫我們多少忙\n\n15\n00:05:33,682 --> 00:06:00,200\n軍機就一直飛一直飛一直飛一直飛但軍機畢竟是做國防的嘛對不對我們也不是說希望每次都要用到軍機嘛但是沒辦法就是不夠啊連軍機飛都還不夠呢跟委員報告金門因為這幾年你也很清楚小三通越來越多人小三通為什麼會這樣我跟你講這個我就不想再提了為什麼很多人都透過金門走小三通為什麼因為你們就不開放讓這個台灣地區的老百姓自己就\n\n16\n00:06:01,321 --> 00:06:06,768\n飛啊你們就要什麼船客什麼傘客可以船客不行啊所以他們就到這裡講實話叫做跨層我已經重新問過去了我不研究那個比較複雜的問題我是想說我們也歡迎很多人從那裡經過但是我們的基本的交通人權不能被剝奪啦\n\n17\n00:06:16,761 --> 00:06:44,006\n因為每一件到我這邊陳情安都是生離死別我們每天都感受到這些民航局我要講幾個事情民航局其實很幫忙我們每次親自跟民航局一直拜託拜託到現場去航空公司也很幫忙大家會盡量來調航班或者是擴大機那有時候沒飛機我請求你華信航空華航有大飛機每天調一台來飛今天都飛那個小飛機\n\n18\n00:06:46,245 --> 00:06:49,916\n華航是國家的航空啊商業活動有比人權重要嗎\n\n19\n00:06:51,124 --> 00:07:16,263\n放大畸形的工作我們也有在做啦對啊你就固定做啊不要每天我們去反應做一次我們去反應做一次啊因為這已經變成是一個常態了嘛這個第一個第二個像這種臨時的事情建立一個緊急惠普的機制公開的就是說如果金門人有事情優先嘛台灣也有要去金門的啊小三通要過去啊那邊等啊金門也有嘛優先惠普機制嘛這個可以嗎\n\n20\n00:07:18,104 --> 00:07:35,863\n這個我們需要討論一下我跟航空公司討論過了技術上沒有問題有一個政策特定身份的優先我們要全盤考慮這個有現場秩序的問題沒有現場秩序的問題這個登記的時候你填你是金門人還不是金門人到時候看有沒有身份證\n\n21\n00:07:36,784 --> 00:08:01,088\n非金門的居民也就他有急事的時候會被在現場秩序來打亂到你還是要去登機候補的只是說比如兩個金門人候補然後一個台灣人可以候補兩個金門人這樣你整體看一下技術沒有問題啦技術沒有問題這個不然你看你想這是我幫你想的方法不然你告訴我有什麼方法不然你從華航調大飛機來我會請部長跟航空公司好好的去溝通\n\n22\n00:08:01,988 --> 00:08:26,625\n增加或是擴大機型這個馬上可以做的85%的達成率啦這還不算百分之百的這個國軍的飛機飛下去每一年每一個節每一次颱風每一次連節都要拜託國防部來飛飛機這個很嚴重啦因為已經不是不是說去來觀光旅遊啦是基本人權都沒有生離死別都永遠沒有還有結婚的也沒有辦法回去到底要怎麼辦他已經前兩個月訂囉已經很早了吧\n\n23\n00:08:32,449 --> 00:08:37,032\n總統在澎湖承諾的意思就是告訴行政院所有離島的問題我們都要解決總統還在澎湖承諾了要做一個腫瘤中心\n\n24\n00:08:55,540 --> 00:09:16,453\n那我請教這個問題呢金門要做一個腫瘤中心啊總統在三軍訪問中心要設一個腫瘤中心在澎湖讓癌症的病患可以在地治療離島的問題都是一樣的金門也是一樣啊金門現在都沒有啊每一年去年有800多位鄉親申請癌症的醫療交通\n\n25\n00:09:17,433 --> 00:09:38,109\n補助800多位去113來我講完然後呢每一個人到這裡來治療要住宿要交通要對不對5到10萬都要錢嘛是不是那我們去年就我舊奶婆是去年我舊奶婆就一直講啊新政府也一直講啊以前我也問過蘇貞昌院長為何不一直在評估啊\n\n26\n00:09:39,005 --> 00:10:05,664\n那你看總統去一下這個澎湖馬上就說一定解決我們是全面在檢討台灣各縣市包括離島現有的醫療資源有不足的我來補充那金門的部分部長來做說明跟委員報告這個我們金門的部分一直在強化他的醫療量能包含CD、MRI還有心療法人士都有了腫瘤的部分也可以在這邊做化學治療我知道化療沒問題啊\n\n27\n00:10:07,385 --> 00:10:26,651\n放射線嘛因為如果有放射線治療就不應該被重視嗎不是應該跟委員報告因為放射線的治療現在進步非常快沒錯非常的快那你說總統又總統答應在內總統答應在澎湖做一個來來內總統答應在澎湖做一個的話內總統答應是放射腫瘤中心喔那內總統答應就是沒有來來來部長\n\n28\n00:10:35,458 --> 00:11:02,232\n戴總統答應說要在博物座放射腫瘤治療中那戴總統是醫生耶那醫療一直我也知道這個實際上我討論過這個放射一直進步啊沒錯啊那放射一直進步所以要新的嘛所以實際上比較不適合在那個做你認識是這樣子嗎不是不是因為他進步很快啊你投資下去之後用的少因為病人少對沒錯因為你找的人少樣態很多你到本島來有需要的時候本島來可以找到最合適的那總統說三軍總醫院\n\n29\n00:11:04,133 --> 00:11:20,646\n澎湖分院要設立放射腫瘤中心讓罹患癌症的病人可以在地直接治療不必前往本島接受醫療服務那你是不是要跟賴清德說澎湖也不應該射這應該也是會評估啦這也會評估所以賴清德說的有可能不會實現就對了你意思是這樣子嗎\n\n30\n00:11:21,665 --> 00:11:48,664\n腫瘤的照顧我們你告訴我目前澎湖也是有這個化學治療也是在進行進入到這個放射線的部分我們也都要評估是哪一種哪一種是合適的我覺得你是一個不錯的這個不錯的這個部長這是部長嗎怎麼跟我以前看到長不到像我在衛環委會的時候好像如來如笑臉石部長不要認錯人石部長\n\n31\n00:11:51,286 --> 00:12:14,296\n我知道他以前當那個署長我在為環委會我現在是不想害你因為那總統說要做你現在說要評估你是說澎湖也要評估總統是醫生出身他對於醫療的均衡非常的重視他認為這個地方的人口數他的醫療量能達到什麼程度他必須做到什麼程度我們會用均衡的發展來看\n\n32\n00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:39,607\n他已經承諾要在澎湖做了你們不要打臉他我沒有要求什麼我要求跟澎湖一樣公平就這樣子你不能說澎湖的立法委員是民進黨你就做吧我們會一起評估會不會因為澎湖來來來院長會不會因為澎湖的立委是民進黨的啊信長是民進黨的啊不會不會嘛齁我們金門都不是民進黨就不做不會吧不會不會嘛齁所以賴總統說澎湖可以做吧都是屬於中華民國國家的領土內都是國會議員我們同樣尊重\n\n33\n00:12:40,948 --> 00:12:48,894\n所以在澎湖可以做在金門如果我們的條件跟他一樣就我們的人口各方面都可以他能做我們也應該要公平對不對我就求公平而已\n\n34\n00:12:49,909 --> 00:13:14,529\n我們會從均衡來佈置台灣建部台灣整個的醫療治癒那在這之前因為這東西還要一段時間你們研究好久了已經六年了在這之前是把我們後送的機制包括後端的部分在這個相關的費用要跟我們支持送到台灣來治療或是各方面離島到台灣島來治療的時候是很辛苦的\n\n35\n00:13:15,330 --> 00:13:24,819\n每一年你知道嗎一直要每個月來很辛苦很辛苦然後做好治療的時候做好治療的時候你還沒有飛機回家你要從早上等到晚上\n\n36\n00:13:25,595 --> 00:13:53,425\n非常非常辛苦啊離島居民是真的很苦啊我請大家將心比心啊那我們剛剛院長有說這個都是在中華民國領土內啦範圍內你都會一致公平的待遇啦我也就很想問這個問題啊這個中華民國的領土範圍啦我不是要問你政治問題喔我先問一下這個根據我想問一個禁限制水域的問題他是在管制大陸還是在前置金門的這個漁民根據兩個人民共一條第28條的規定\n\n37\n00:13:56,342 --> 00:14:20,114\n為什麼海委會沒有自己上來時間暫停陳委員需要沒關係他們不放只要議長可以回答就好不用他可以回答就好了來中華民國船舶航空器等等喔中華民國船航空器或其他運輸公司經主管需關需可可以航行到大陸地區嘛你注意聽一下這個大陸這有法律規定請問這個大陸地區怎麼定義\n\n38\n00:14:22,093 --> 00:14:28,004\n我們現在除了台澎金馬是中華民國領土之外屬於中華人民共和國的我們都認為它是大陸的地區那現在哪裡\n\n39\n00:14:31,168 --> 00:14:48,456\n各個地方不一樣以金門來講的話只要在我們的禁限制水域外根據韓式的話國防部所公告的禁限制水域外因為中國就說那個是他們的領海所以那個地方被界定為是大陸地區這個是法律問題我想部長也是法律專家國防部上來一下好了\n\n40\n00:14:54,129 --> 00:15:09,226\n你說剛剛管秉主委回答是說因為中共認為那是他們禁憲制水位是他們的中共中國大陸認為禁憲制來看一下禁憲制水位這條線讓你們有點概念\n\n41\n00:15:10,475 --> 00:15:37,846\n金門的禁限制水域這條看一下這國防部畫的這很久以前畫他的目的當初國防部的公告民國93年他的目的是為了第五點未經許可進入限制或禁止水域之大陸船舶他是要讓大陸船不能進來我們這裡吧所以畫了這條禁限制水域好根據剛管主委的意思是說因為大陸他是說大陸認為那邊是這條線以為是他們的領海\n\n42\n00:15:40,208 --> 00:16:07,294\n所以我們不能過去主委你的意思是這樣子嗎你剛剛是這樣說的嗎那個是大陸地區這個的定義那以韓式而言在金門馬祖大陸地區的定義是依韓式是這樣的定義韓式是怎樣說一下應該是兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關兩岸人民關係條例韓式就是我想知道金門跟馬祖的線就是在國防部公告的限制水域外\n\n43\n00:16:08,254 --> 00:16:23,054\n這樣規定你告訴我你把法律告訴我哪一條我很想知道是哪一條這是一個函式對不起是一個函式你唸給我聽哪一個函式你唸給我函式我再把文字跟你講一下你要確定你說的是對的因為我有查相關資料\n\n44\n00:16:24,756 --> 00:16:42,374\n你唸一下那個韓式的內容給我民國法務部八十九年法務部有一個韓式但是以金門馬祖而言國防部的這個韓式我們根據國防部的這個限制你把韓式內容唸清楚一點法務部有一個韓式你說什麼我們對於一般的漁民\n\n45\n00:16:47,935 --> 00:16:57,757\n不會擾民那基本上基本上這個總共的案例一百幾百個移民沒有沒有沒有幾百個錯了錯了沒有沒有沒有沒有我們查的資料總共一百一十一年到現在最多的是在COVID-19的時候因為我們比較嚴因為我們要避免\n\n46\n00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:17,448\n那個時候比較嚴所以那個時候只有99個人總共才17艘船總共才17艘船妳講這麼細總院長聽不懂來我們先全部都是走私來如果走私我幫妳以後九艘\n\n47\n00:17:27,902 --> 00:17:50,095\n去年有九騷跟九案全部都是走私你等一下喔如果走私我絕對不會包庇請你用力抓對我們最主要就是你先不要插嘴我把它講完在2013年9月以後全部都是走私你不要插嘴我把它講完如果走私請用走私條例去辦他們你們現在辦的這些人可是議區兩岸人民關係條例有兩岸人民關係條例你先聽我講一下好嗎\n\n48\n00:17:53,857 --> 00:18:10,208\n法律懲治人民罪行法定主義你要由他違法嘛如果走私你就用走私去辦他百分之一百贊成走私辦走私來聽我講完聽我講我要說你錯錯在哪裡走私你用走私辦今天這一百多位你聽我講完好不好你聽我講我要聽主席他一直不讓我講話差我時間我時間還給他多留五分鐘時間暫停\n\n49\n00:18:20,316 --> 00:18:45,066\n你聽我講我是要讓院長了解這個情形嘛我沒有說海委會做了什麼事情不對或是對嘛我們在談討我在談的是法律問題我開始你先聽我講法律問題但是事實也很重要委員的那個印象故詐部長在這裡他是律師出身如果他違反走私你用走私條例辦他嘛你們現在辦的全部都是叫做什麼違反兩岸人民關係條例辦嘛\n\n50\n00:18:46,767 --> 00:19:11,261\n如果他要走私你用走私狀態應該的百分之一千應該的那他違反聯安條約的原因是什麼你們的我跟你講法院啊地檢啊或是各方原因的理由是什麼因為他說我們舉法你先聽我講完好嗎可不可以不要插嘴我要讓院長了解這情形我想讓你們整個跨部會去了解這個情形因為你們說跳過那條禁憲之水就是\n\n51\n00:19:12,262 --> 00:19:40,501\n就是走出去嘛就是違反兩岸聯盟條例那我請顧議長這是你們國防部國防部長對嘛你聽我講未經許可進入大陸地區嘛好這個禁限之水域劃定是國防部劃的他當初的目的是要未經許可進入禁限之水域之大陸船舶他是要不讓大陸船進入到我們金門的禁限之水域不是不要讓金門的船劃定之線不讓我們出去啊如果金門營要補營的話現在都這樣子\n\n52\n00:19:42,262 --> 00:20:08,436\n不用啊開一開魚魚油車超出那條線就不能補了如果這樣兩岸人民關係條例要修掉你聽我講完我有看你先不要講因為我最後還是要讓你們去研究我請顧部長看這個是國防部公告他是他要處罰是大陸傳播不是台灣地區拍風接馬的人他的處罰主體是大陸傳播好第二個你們處罰的理由你們處罰的理由是說\n\n53\n00:20:12,185 --> 00:20:30,496\n違反兩岸人民關係條例根據兩岸人民關係條例第29條這個是規定禁止大陸的傳播管大陸不能進來好那出去的部分呢他們處罰來處罰是原因觸犯第28條28條就是說這個28條是違反兩岸人民關係條例第28條28條在這裡28條說的就是說\n\n54\n00:20:41,684 --> 00:21:10,843\n大陸地區嗎你剛剛說的嗎金門的漁民如果出海捕魚用這條啦你們海巡用這條辦如果金門的漁民或是用那個觀光釣魚船的那種觀光船出去你們就說因為他們都跟著魚跑嘛那魚如果跑過那條線喔你看一下28條中華民國船舶什麼點點點要經過主管區那個部長顧長請你看一下他是經過主管區關係的德航行到大陸地區嗎好那現在就這些船\n\n55\n00:21:11,904 --> 00:21:37,710\n還有會認為說這些漁民沒有經過許可所以他們走到大澳地區所以我剛才問說你先聽我講完我才問說那大澳地區的定義在哪裡嘛大澳地區是你管碧玲定義說這條線以內是台灣地區那條線以外是大澳地區嗎不是我定義的我們根據韓式不是我定義的我們根據韓式就是每一個法律在適用的時候他必須要進入很多第一個我麻煩你我們要從他的適用\n\n56\n00:21:39,191 --> 00:22:03,232\n對你聽我講因為你這樣一直搶我沒有辦法把它敘述很清楚好不好因為我特別請國安部長上來的原因是因為這樣的事情因為你這樣子如果齁我認為齁如果沒有藍營議會委員說是我定義你聽我講完什麼地區中華民國領土到哪裡不是你定義好不好這個東西有一個叫做中華民國的有一個法律的這個叫做\n\n57\n00:22:04,737 --> 00:22:30,594\n臨海及臨街區法這個也不是你說的算也不是我說的算這是有法律的請按照法律行事嘛你要處罰人民你要法律嘛我想請問齁而且你剛剛一直說走私你用走私辦他我完全不反對問題是今天不同的犯行不同的犯行依不同的法律來處理所以你剛剛不要扯到走私走私你一定要抓我跟你講你開到大陸地區同時也有兩岸人民關係條例的問題\n\n58\n00:22:34,036 --> 00:22:35,077\n113年以後到現在只有9個案\n\n59\n00:22:51,811 --> 00:23:05,539\n100多個案子沒有那個是在COVID-19的時候我們真的必須研究因為要禁止接觸這個案子為什麼會到我們的澄清案上就是因為他已經有100多個案子而且你再說一次在COVID-19期間比較多總共就是99加999加9100多個\n\n60\n00:23:15,322 --> 00:23:37,390\n但是如果我們的取締不對主管機關不會裁罰那如果我們所做的依法主管機關認為我們必須不做所以你覺得這是主管機關所以我才說這個是法律問題我們是期待執法的請你等一下你在執行嘛所以院長我今天要特別請您跟部長上來因為是光復這個我想\n\n61\n00:23:40,411 --> 00:24:06,631\n請你們回去你們回去告訴我因為我們時間很早我要跟你們探討這個問題第一個禁縣之所以就是我們的大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個交界嗎是金門跟馬祖但是在其他的地方就不是這樣了委員你先聽我講完我要問院長然後我要請你回答因為這整個問題不是一個問題我把問題問完好嗎我會讓你回答好嗎我會讓你回答\n\n62\n00:24:07,151 --> 00:24:26,428\n我讓你回答用韓文來回答我第一個問題這個大陸地區是你說韓式吧請給我嘛我也歡迎你給我嘛這個沒問題問題是這個大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個分界是由一個韓式或者由一個部會來決定嗎這個是第一個問題這是法律問題\n\n63\n00:24:28,342 --> 00:24:56,362\n第二個有一個法律如果有一個法律當地的老百姓這麼多人不停的在違法我不是說走私喔沒有沒有聽我講一百多個一百多件案子還不多那個COVID-19的時候我們真的必須要執法來避免接觸跟傳染但是那之後我們沒有對一般的漁民造成擾民我跟你講你說沒有齁到時候我請漁民來開會你們來你也來開會就知道有多少漁民的反應了\n\n64\n00:24:57,122 --> 00:25:16,968\n如果這麼多人會違法今天沒有那麼多移民啊今天沒有這麼多人會違法我們是不是要考慮到這個法律的適用上面發生了什麼問題您了解嗎法律也是與時俱進我們來請主管機關回答你可以不要講我請院長回答好嗎我要請院長回答剩下沒有幾秒鐘第一個就是說這個\n\n65\n00:25:19,009 --> 00:25:44,739\n淨限制水域他應該是限制當大陸船不要來我們這裡你怎麼先把漁民限制把我們台灣地區的漁民限制不能出海捕魚呢如果你不要回來主席我一直不要讓他一直回來我是要跟院長講你這樣浪費我時間麻煩不要搶稿要搶完嘛請繼續我沒有要件你現在回來你也不用一直爭辯我也沒說你做錯好不好研究法律嘛因為我們今天就是要我們要時間就是要給那個院長來跟我們回答嘛\n\n66\n00:25:45,902 --> 00:26:07,139\n這一個研究一下這個法律是限制大陸人不要進來不是限制我們的漁民不能出海去捕魚啊漁遊出這條線他就不能撞第二個第二個如果這麼多人一直違反這個法律那這個是不是在法律的適用或是解釋或是各方面上是不是要做適當的改變呢我剛剛聽到委員說我如果我們出去的漁船也會被大陸逮捕嗎當然啊所以我們要保護它\n\n67\n00:26:19,853 --> 00:26:26,179\n麻煩行政院把陳玉珍委員要求的資料麻煩送一下陳玉珍委員辦公室好非常謝謝陳玉珍委員的資訊謝謝卓院長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5351\t11617\t來 謝謝主席我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢院長\n25951\t35956\t因為我知道你等一下有事情如果我的問題多是名聲議題你可以很簡單明快的回答說不定我們也用不到25分鐘這個連續假期的時候金門以前連續假期都這個\n41379\t65291\t颱風啊起霧的時候金門大家常看新聞金門都是這個像去金門大家都說是金門三日遊變關島五日遊然後就非常辛苦對我們觀光形象影響也很大那時候也都三節的時候也都很難拿到票很難買到票居民啊連居民也很難買到票那我們居民要提早去定位啊好像搶票非常辛苦那連續假期連節說要返鄉我們有時候說這個\n69033\t94428\t好 這個你們要解決 希望你們解決但是現在啊 事情已經嚴重到不是連續假期才發生了我想昨天總統去這個澎湖 你們有沒有看到相關的新聞賴總統去澎湖的事情有看到嗎 對不起 前幾天去澎湖啦澎湖發生了就是說連續假期喔 平日現在不只平日連機票也買不到 金門也是一樣啊現在連平日連一張機票也買不到\n95827\t120647\t這個機票這個東西多重要這個交通啊在觀光客來講他是觀光旅遊在當地老百姓來講是基本人權啊行是一個基本人權更何況澎湖跟馬祖有船啊我們基本還沒有客輪可以到臺灣來啊我讓你看一下你看新馬澎湖之前上次我直訓的時候院長您說要研究對吧讓金門有一條新金門輪吧現在進度怎麼樣一年了\n121588\t139873\t部長說明跟委員報告因為院長有交代我們還是希望說朝向這個藍色公路就是用國家用航港局他們來建設你們這個金門輪未來金門有需要或馬祖有需要沒有需要嗎有需要的時候就可以去支援你研究結果金門有沒有需要\n140663\t161860\t都有需要 那什麼時候要幫我們開始做如果由一個縣來養一艘船會非常的辛苦澎湖跟馬祖都有啦新台馬輪跟澎湖輪都有 金門沒有我清楚 但是您在金門應該也很了解一般如果我們要用客輪的話大家其實比較不喜歡啦有些還是希望飛機嘛那現在連飛機也沒位子啊\n162580\t174988\t那船的部分我們現在正在建置藍色公路那沒關係我知道 航空局長跟我講過啦所以請問你這個什麼時候會研究出來什麼時候可以開始實行這個藍色公路這一段那什麼時候可以開始什麼時候編預算\n179332\t196645\t就是110 2022年的預算編進去喔準備要買船 但是船需要兩三年的這個購置的期間沒關係 你已經有編制預算了嘛編那個預算要做這個新就是藍色公路這個金門啊花蓮這些備援的嘛我們今年藍色公路雖然還沒有買到船但是我們用租船的方式已經開始在走在養育量 沒有\n197285\t198566\t4點多就有100多個人在排後部\n222110\t245366\t凌晨四點喔現在這個情形已經快變成每天的情形了我那天到機場後來我到機場去的時候五六點的時候這種互補很嚴重啊 排不到位子不是說去觀光旅遊啊是回家 回家也不是說是普通上班回家這種回家我在那邊的時候有個阿嬤她九十一歲啦她女兒七十一歲開出病危通知她沒有辦法回家看她女兒一九十一歲 她女兒七十一歲\n250902\t276065\t等不到機會就是等不到機會 因為每一班都是客滿都是客滿的 沒有位子我們還在那邊協助啊 那他的其他的那個那些那個女生的那個兄弟姐妹也要一起回去 因為他那個就是他的女兒已經開病危了 回不去啊那那個前一天晚上 那一天晚上好幾組我實在是 那一天晚上那前一天晚上 經過一個女教師發生車禍啊半夜被車 酒駕的撞死\n277335\t305873\t哥哥姊姊家人在台灣哥哥姊姊要回去幫忙去地檢署辦那個香宴啊什麼辦後事啊辦什麼沒有辦法回去沒有飛機位這個情形現在幾乎每天在發生啊要回去奔喪的要到台灣癌症要開刀什麼都沒有飛機位那總統前一天去澎湖說澎湖現在也是發生了說一票燃酒金門也是一樣啊那總統說他答應澎湖要幫澎湖解決那我昨天講這個也是很重要的事情你可以答應我幫金門解決嗎\n306738\t323963\t我們一起努力幫金門解決如果有這麼多的回家或是旅客表示這個市場是活絡的你知道金門這個航線台金航線的載客率去年有多少嗎那航空公司的部分我們應該要去協調有多少你知道嗎我跟你講85%這個還不包括如果沒有飛機的時候你看旁邊那個顧立雄幫我們多少忙\n333682\t360200\t軍機就一直飛一直飛一直飛一直飛但軍機畢竟是做國防的嘛對不對我們也不是說希望每次都要用到軍機嘛但是沒辦法就是不夠啊連軍機飛都還不夠呢跟委員報告金門因為這幾年你也很清楚小三通越來越多人小三通為什麼會這樣我跟你講這個我就不想再提了為什麼很多人都透過金門走小三通為什麼因為你們就不開放讓這個台灣地區的老百姓自己就\n361321\t366768\t飛啊 你們就要什麼 船客什麼 傘客可以 船客不行啊所以他們就到這裡 講實話叫做跨層 我已經重新問過去了我不研究那個比較複雜的問題 我是想說我們也歡迎很多人從那裡經過 但是我們的基本的交通人權不能被剝奪啦\n376761\t404006\t因為每一件到我這邊陳情安都是生離死別我們每天都感受到這些民航局 我要講幾個事情民航局其實很幫忙我們每次親自跟民航局一直拜託拜託到現場去航空公司也很幫忙大家會盡量來調航班或者是擴大機那有時候沒飛機我請求你華信航空 華航有大飛機每天調一台來飛今天都飛那個小飛機\n406245\t409916\t華航是國家的航空啊商業活動有比人權重要嗎\n411124\t436263\t放大畸形的工作我們也有在做啦對啊 你就固定做啊不要每天我們去反應做一次 我們去反應做一次啊因為這已經變成是一個常態了嘛這個第一個 第二個 像這種臨時的事情建立一個緊急惠普的機制 公開的就是說如果金門人有事情優先嘛 台灣也有要去金門的啊小三通要過去啊 那邊等啊金門也有嘛 優先惠普機制嘛 這個可以嗎\n438104\t455863\t這個我們需要討論一下我跟航空公司討論過了技術上沒有問題有一個政策特定身份的優先我們要全盤考慮這個有現場秩序的問題沒有現場秩序的問題這個登記的時候你填你是金門人還不是金門人到時候看有沒有身份證\n456784\t481088\t非金門的居民也就他有急事的時候會被在現場秩序來打亂到你還是要去登機候補的只是說比如兩個金門人候補然後一個台灣人可以候補兩個金門人這樣你整體看一下技術沒有問題啦技術沒有問題這個不然你看你想這是我幫你想的方法不然你告訴我有什麼方法不然你從華航調大飛機來我會請部長跟航空公司好好的去溝通\n481988\t506625\t增加或是擴大機型這個馬上可以做的85%的達成率啦這還不算百分之百的這個國軍的飛機飛下去每一年每一個節每一次颱風每一次連節都要拜託國防部來飛飛機這個很嚴重啦因為已經不是不是說去來觀光旅遊啦是基本人權都沒有生離死別都永遠沒有還有結婚的也沒有辦法回去到底要怎麼辦他已經前兩個月訂囉已經很早了吧\n512449\t517032\t總統在澎湖承諾的意思就是告訴行政院所有離島的問題我們都要解決總統還在澎湖承諾了要做一個腫瘤中心\n535540\t556453\t那我請教 這個問題呢 金門要做一個腫瘤中心啊總統在三軍訪問中心要設一個腫瘤中心在澎湖讓癌症的病患可以在地治療 離島的問題都是一樣的金門也是一樣啊 金門現在都沒有啊每一年 去年有800多位鄉親申請癌症的醫療交通\n557433\t578109\t補助800多位去113來我講完然後呢每一個人到這裡來治療要住宿要交通要對不對5到10萬都要錢嘛是不是那我們去年就我舊奶婆是去年我舊奶婆就一直講啊新政府也一直講啊以前我也問過蘇貞昌院長為何不一直在評估啊\n579005\t605664\t那你看總統去一下這個澎湖馬上就說一定解決我們是全面在檢討台灣各縣市包括離島現有的醫療資源有不足的我來補充那金門的部分部長來做說明跟委員報告這個我們金門的部分一直在強化他的醫療量能包含CD、MRI還有心療法人士都有了腫瘤的部分也可以在這邊做化學治療我知道 化療沒問題啊\n607385\t626651\t放射線嘛 因為如果有放射線治療就不應該被重視嗎不是 應該跟委員報告因為放射線的治療現在進步非常快沒錯非常的快那你說總統又總統答應在內總統答應在澎湖做一個來來 內總統答應在澎湖做一個的話內總統答應是放射腫瘤中心喔那內總統答應就是沒有來來來 部長\n635458\t662232\t戴總統答應說要在博物座放射腫瘤治療中那戴總統是醫生耶那醫療一直 我也知道這個實際上我討論過這個放射一直進步啊 沒錯啊那放射一直進步所以要新的嘛所以實際上比較不適合在那個做你認識是這樣子嗎不是不是 因為他進步很快啊你投資下去之後用的少 因為病人少對沒錯 因為你找的人少樣態很多 你到本島來有需要的時候本島來可以找到最合適的那總統說三軍總醫院\n664133\t680646\t澎湖分院要設立放射腫瘤中心讓罹患癌症的病人可以在地直接治療不必前往本島接受醫療服務那你是不是要跟賴清德說澎湖也不應該射這應該也是會評估啦這也會評估所以賴清德說的有可能不會實現就對了你意思是這樣子嗎\n681665\t708664\t腫瘤的照顧我們你告訴我目前澎湖也是有這個化學治療也是在進行進入到這個放射線的部分我們也都要評估是哪一種哪一種是合適的我覺得你是一個不錯的這個不錯的這個部長這是部長嗎怎麼跟我以前看到長不到像我在衛環委會的時候好像如來如笑臉石部長不要認錯人石部長\n711286\t734296\t我知道 他以前當那個署長 我在為環委會我現在是不想害你 因為那總統說要做你現在說要評估 你是說澎湖也要評估總統是醫生出身 他對於醫療的均衡非常的重視他認為這個地方的人口數 他的醫療量能達到什麼程度他必須做到什麼程度 我們會用均衡的發展來看\n734876\t759607\t他已經承諾要在澎湖做了 你們不要打臉他我沒有要求什麼 我要求跟澎湖一樣公平就這樣子你不能說澎湖的立法委員是民進黨你就做吧我們會一起評估會不會因為澎湖 來來來院長 會不會因為澎湖的立委是民進黨的啊信長是民進黨的啊不會不會嘛齁我們金門都不是 民進黨就不做不會吧不會不會嘛齁所以賴總統說澎湖可以做吧都是屬於中華民國國家的領土內都是國會議員 我們同樣尊重\n760948\t768894\t所以在澎湖可以做在金門如果我們的條件跟他一樣就我們的人口各方面都可以他能做我們也應該要公平對不對我就求公平而已\n769909\t794529\t我們會從均衡來佈置台灣 建部台灣整個的醫療治癒那在這之前 因為這東西還要一段時間你們研究好久了 已經六年了在這之前是把我們後送的機制 包括後端的部分在這個相關的費用要跟我們支持送到台灣來治療或是各方面離島到台灣島來治療的時候是很辛苦的\n795330\t804819\t每一年你知道嗎一直要每個月來很辛苦很辛苦然後做好治療的時候做好治療的時候你還沒有飛機回家你要從早上等到晚上\n805595\t833425\t非常非常辛苦啊離島居民是真的很苦啊我請大家將心比心啊那我們剛剛院長有說這個都是在中華民國領土內啦範圍內你都會一致公平的待遇啦我也就很想問這個問題啊這個中華民國的領土範圍啦我不是要問你政治問題喔我先問一下這個根據我想問一個禁限制水域的問題他是在管制大陸還是在前置金門的這個漁民根據兩個人民共一條第28條的規定\n836342\t860114\t為什麼海委會沒有自己上來時間暫停 陳委員需要沒關係 他們不放 只要議長可以回答就好 不用他可以回答就好了 來中華民國船舶航空器等等喔中華民國船航空器或其他運輸公司經主管需關需可可以航行到大陸地區嘛 你注意聽一下這個大陸這有法律規定 請問這個大陸地區怎麼定義\n862093\t868004\t我們現在除了台澎金馬是中華民國領土之外屬於中華人民共和國的我們都認為它是大陸的地區那現在哪裡\n871168\t888456\t各個地方不一樣以金門來講的話只要在我們的禁限制水域外根據韓式的話國防部所公告的禁限制水域外因為中國就說那個是他們的領海所以那個地方被界定為是大陸地區這個是法律問題我想部長也是法律專家國防部上來一下好了\n894129\t909226\t你說剛剛管秉主委回答是說因為中共認為那是他們禁憲制水位是他們的中共中國大陸認為禁憲制來看一下禁憲制水位這條線讓你們有點概念\n910475\t937846\t金門的禁限制水域這條看一下這國防部畫的這很久以前畫他的目的當初國防部的公告民國93年他的目的是為了第五點未經許可進入限制或禁止水域之大陸船舶他是要讓大陸船不能進來我們這裡吧所以畫了這條禁限制水域好根據剛管主委的意思是說因為大陸他是說大陸認為那邊是這條線以為是他們的領海\n940208\t967294\t所以我們不能過去 主委你的意思是這樣子嗎你剛剛是這樣說的嗎那個是大陸地區這個的定義那以韓式而言 在金門 馬祖大陸地區的定義是依韓式是這樣的定義韓式是怎樣 說一下應該是兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關兩岸人民關係條例 韓式就是我想知道金門跟馬祖的線就是在國防部公告的限制水域外\n968254\t983054\t這樣規定你告訴我你把法律告訴我哪一條我很想知道是哪一條這是一個函式對不起是一個函式你唸給我聽哪一個函式你唸給我函式我再把文字跟你講一下你要確定你說的是對的因為我有查相關資料\n984756\t1002374\t你唸一下那個韓式的內容給我民國法務部八十九年法務部有一個韓式但是以金門馬祖而言國防部的這個韓式我們根據國防部的這個限制你把韓式內容唸清楚一點法務部有一個韓式你說什麼我們對於一般的漁民\n1007935\t1017757\t不會擾民那基本上基本上這個總共的案例一百幾百個移民沒有沒有沒有幾百個錯了錯了沒有沒有沒有沒有我們查的資料總共一百一十一年到現在最多的是在COVID-19的時候因為我們比較嚴因為我們要避免\n1031300\t1037448\t那個時候比較嚴所以那個時候只有99個人總共才17艘船總共才17艘船妳講這麼細 總院長聽不懂來 我們先全部都是走私來 如果走私我幫妳以後九艘\n1047902\t1070095\t去年有九騷跟九案全部都是走私你等一下喔如果走私我絕對不會包庇請你用力抓對 我們最主要就是你先不要插嘴我把它講完在2013年9月以後全部都是走私你不要插嘴我把它講完如果走私請用走私條例去辦他們你們現在辦的這些人可是議區兩岸人民關係條例有兩岸人民關係條例你先聽我講一下好嗎\n1073857\t1090208\t法律懲治人民罪行法定主義你要由他違法嘛如果走私你就用走私去辦他百分之一百贊成走私辦走私來聽我講完聽我講我要說你錯錯在哪裡走私你用走私辦今天這一百多位你聽我講完好不好你聽我講我要聽主席他一直不讓我講話差我時間我時間還給他多留五分鐘時間暫停\n1100316\t1125066\t你聽我講 我是要讓院長了解這個情形嘛我沒有說海委會做了什麼事情不對或是對嘛我們在談討 我在談的是法律問題我開始 你先聽我講法律問題但是事實也很重要 委員的那個印象故詐部長在這裡他是律師出身如果他違反走私 你用走私條例辦他嘛你們現在辦的全部都是叫做什麼 違反兩岸人民關係條例辦嘛\n1126767\t1151261\t如果他要走私 你用走私狀態應該的 百分之一千應該的那他違反聯安條約的原因是什麼你們的 我跟你講法院啊 地檢啊 或是各方原因的理由是什麼 因為他說我們舉法你先聽我講完好嗎 可不可以不要插嘴我要讓院長了解這情形 我想讓你們整個跨部會去了解這個情形因為你們說 跳過那條禁憲之水 就是\n1152262\t1180501\t就是走出去嘛 就是違反兩岸聯盟條例那我請顧議長 這是你們國防部 國防部長對嘛 你聽我講 未經許可進入大陸地區嘛好這個禁限之水域劃定是國防部劃的 他當初的目的是要未經許可進入禁限之水域之大陸船舶 他是要不讓大陸船進入到我們金門的禁限之水域不是不要讓金門的船劃定之線 不讓我們出去啊如果金門營要補營的話 現在都這樣子\n1182262\t1208436\t不用啊 開一開 魚魚油車超出那條線就不能補了如果這樣兩岸人民關係條例要修掉你聽我講完 我有看你先不要講 因為我最後還是要讓你們去研究我請顧部長看 這個是國防部公告他是 他要處罰是大陸傳播不是台灣地區拍風接馬的人他的處罰主體是大陸傳播好 第二個 你們處罰的理由你們處罰的理由是說\n1212185\t1230496\t違反兩岸人民關係條例根據兩岸人民關係條例第29條這個是規定禁止大陸的傳播管大陸不能進來好 那出去的部分呢他們處罰來 處罰是原因觸犯第28條28條就是說這個28條是違反兩岸人民關係條例第28條28條在這裡28條說的就是說\n1241684\t1270843\t大陸地區嗎你剛剛說的嗎金門的漁民如果出海捕魚用這條啦你們海巡用這條辦如果金門的漁民或是用那個觀光釣魚船的那種觀光船出去你們就說因為他們都跟著魚跑嘛那魚如果跑過那條線喔你看一下28條中華民國船舶什麼點點點要經過主管區那個部長顧長請你看一下他是經過主管區關係的德航行到大陸地區嗎好那現在就這些船\n1271904\t1297710\t還有會認為說這些漁民沒有經過許可所以他們走到大澳地區所以我剛才問說你先聽我講完我才問說那大澳地區的定義在哪裡嘛大澳地區是你管碧玲定義說這條線以內是台灣地區那條線以外是大澳地區嗎不是我定義的我們根據韓式不是我定義的我們根據韓式就是每一個法律在適用的時候他必須要進入很多第一個我麻煩你我們要從他的適用\n1299191\t1323232\t對 你聽我講 因為你這樣一直搶 我沒有辦法把它敘述很清楚好不好因為我特別請國安部長上來的原因是因為這樣的事情 因為你這樣子 如果齁我認為齁 如果沒有藍營議會委員說是我定義你聽我講完什麼地區 中華民國領土到哪裡 不是你定義好不好這個東西有一個叫做中華民國的有一個法律的 這個叫做\n1324737\t1350594\t臨海及臨街區法這個也不是你說的算也不是我說的算這是有法律的請按照法律行事嘛你要處罰人民你要法律嘛我想請問齁而且你剛剛一直說走私你用走私辦他我完全不反對問題是今天不同的犯行不同的犯行依不同的法律來處理所以你剛剛不要扯到走私走私你一定要抓我跟你講你開到大陸地區同時也有兩岸人民關係條例的問題\n1354036\t1355077\t113年以後到現在只有9個案\n1371811\t1385539\t100多個案子沒有 那個是在COVID-19的時候我們真的必須研究因為要禁止接觸這個案子為什麼會到我們的澄清案上就是因為他已經有100多個案子而且你再說一次在COVID-19期間比較多總共就是99加999加9 100多個\n1395322\t1417390\t但是如果我們的取締不對主管機關不會裁罰那如果我們所做的依法主管機關認為我們必須不做所以你覺得這是主管機關所以我才說這個是法律問題我們是期待執法的請你等一下你在執行嘛所以院長我今天要特別請您跟部長上來因為是光復這個我想\n1420411\t1446631\t請你們回去你們回去告訴我因為我們時間很早我要跟你們探討這個問題第一個禁縣之所以就是我們的大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個交界嗎是金門跟馬祖但是在其他的地方就不是這樣了委員你先聽我講完我要問院長然後我要請你回答因為這整個問題不是一個問題我把問題問完好嗎我會讓你回答好嗎我會讓你回答\n1447151\t1466428\t我讓你回答 用韓文來回答我第一個問題 這個大陸地區是你說韓式吧 請給我嘛我也歡迎你給我嘛 這個沒問題問題是這個大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個分界是由一個韓式或者由一個部會來決定嗎這個是第一個問題 這是法律問題\n1468342\t1496362\t第二個有一個法律如果有一個法律當地的老百姓這麼多人不停的在違法我不是說走私喔沒有沒有聽我講一百多個一百多件案子還不多那個COVID-19的時候我們真的必須要執法來避免接觸跟傳染但是那之後我們沒有對一般的漁民造成擾民我跟你講你說沒有齁到時候我請漁民來開會你們來你也來開會就知道有多少漁民的反應了\n1497122\t1516968\t如果這麼多人會違法 今天沒有那麼多移民啊今天沒有這麼多人會違法 我們是不是要考慮到這個法律的適用上面發生了什麼問題 您了解嗎法律也是與時俱進 我們來請主管機關回答你可以不要講 我請院長回答好嗎我要請院長回答 剩下沒有幾秒鐘第一個就是說 這個\n1519009\t1544739\t淨限制水域他應該是限制當大陸船不要來我們這裡你怎麼先把漁民限制把我們台灣地區的漁民限制不能出海捕魚呢如果你不要回來主席我一直不要讓他一直回來我是要跟院長講你這樣浪費我時間麻煩不要搶稿要搶完嘛請繼續我沒有要件你現在回來你也不用一直爭辯我也沒說你做錯好不好研究法律嘛因為我們今天就是要我們要時間就是要給那個院長來跟我們回答嘛\n1545902\t1567139\t這一個 研究一下這個法律是限制大陸人不要進來不是限制我們的漁民不能出海去捕魚啊漁遊出這條線他就不能撞第二個 第二個如果這麼多人一直違反這個法律那這個是不是在法律的適用或是解釋或是各方面上是不是要做適當的改變呢我剛剛聽到委員說我如果我們出去的漁船也會被大陸逮捕嗎當然啊所以我們要保護它\n1579853\t1586179\t麻煩行政院把陳玉珍委員要求的資料麻煩送一下陳玉珍委員辦公室好 非常謝謝陳玉珍委員的資訊謝謝卓院長\n","txt":"來 謝謝主席我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢院長\n因為我知道你等一下有事情如果我的問題多是名聲議題你可以很簡單明快的回答說不定我們也用不到25分鐘這個連續假期的時候金門以前連續假期都這個\n颱風啊起霧的時候金門大家常看新聞金門都是這個像去金門大家都說是金門三日遊變關島五日遊然後就非常辛苦對我們觀光形象影響也很大那時候也都三節的時候也都很難拿到票很難買到票居民啊連居民也很難買到票那我們居民要提早去定位啊好像搶票非常辛苦那連續假期連節說要返鄉我們有時候說這個\n好 這個你們要解決 希望你們解決但是現在啊 事情已經嚴重到不是連續假期才發生了我想昨天總統去這個澎湖 你們有沒有看到相關的新聞賴總統去澎湖的事情有看到嗎 對不起 前幾天去澎湖啦澎湖發生了就是說連續假期喔 平日現在不只平日連機票也買不到 金門也是一樣啊現在連平日連一張機票也買不到\n這個機票這個東西多重要這個交通啊在觀光客來講他是觀光旅遊在當地老百姓來講是基本人權啊行是一個基本人權更何況澎湖跟馬祖有船啊我們基本還沒有客輪可以到臺灣來啊我讓你看一下你看新馬澎湖之前上次我直訓的時候院長您說要研究對吧讓金門有一條新金門輪吧現在進度怎麼樣一年了\n部長說明跟委員報告因為院長有交代我們還是希望說朝向這個藍色公路就是用國家用航港局他們來建設你們這個金門輪未來金門有需要或馬祖有需要沒有需要嗎有需要的時候就可以去支援你研究結果金門有沒有需要\n都有需要 那什麼時候要幫我們開始做如果由一個縣來養一艘船會非常的辛苦澎湖跟馬祖都有啦新台馬輪跟澎湖輪都有 金門沒有我清楚 但是您在金門應該也很了解一般如果我們要用客輪的話大家其實比較不喜歡啦有些還是希望飛機嘛那現在連飛機也沒位子啊\n那船的部分我們現在正在建置藍色公路那沒關係我知道 航空局長跟我講過啦所以請問你這個什麼時候會研究出來什麼時候可以開始實行這個藍色公路這一段那什麼時候可以開始什麼時候編預算\n就是110 2022年的預算編進去喔準備要買船 但是船需要兩三年的這個購置的期間沒關係 你已經有編制預算了嘛編那個預算要做這個新就是藍色公路這個金門啊花蓮這些備援的嘛我們今年藍色公路雖然還沒有買到船但是我們用租船的方式已經開始在走在養育量 沒有\n4點多就有100多個人在排後部\n凌晨四點喔現在這個情形已經快變成每天的情形了我那天到機場後來我到機場去的時候五六點的時候這種互補很嚴重啊 排不到位子不是說去觀光旅遊啊是回家 回家也不是說是普通上班回家這種回家我在那邊的時候有個阿嬤她九十一歲啦她女兒七十一歲開出病危通知她沒有辦法回家看她女兒一九十一歲 她女兒七十一歲\n等不到機會就是等不到機會 因為每一班都是客滿都是客滿的 沒有位子我們還在那邊協助啊 那他的其他的那個那些那個女生的那個兄弟姐妹也要一起回去 因為他那個就是他的女兒已經開病危了 回不去啊那那個前一天晚上 那一天晚上好幾組我實在是 那一天晚上那前一天晚上 經過一個女教師發生車禍啊半夜被車 酒駕的撞死\n哥哥姊姊家人在台灣哥哥姊姊要回去幫忙去地檢署辦那個香宴啊什麼辦後事啊辦什麼沒有辦法回去沒有飛機位這個情形現在幾乎每天在發生啊要回去奔喪的要到台灣癌症要開刀什麼都沒有飛機位那總統前一天去澎湖說澎湖現在也是發生了說一票燃酒金門也是一樣啊那總統說他答應澎湖要幫澎湖解決那我昨天講這個也是很重要的事情你可以答應我幫金門解決嗎\n我們一起努力幫金門解決如果有這麼多的回家或是旅客表示這個市場是活絡的你知道金門這個航線台金航線的載客率去年有多少嗎那航空公司的部分我們應該要去協調有多少你知道嗎我跟你講85%這個還不包括如果沒有飛機的時候你看旁邊那個顧立雄幫我們多少忙\n軍機就一直飛一直飛一直飛一直飛但軍機畢竟是做國防的嘛對不對我們也不是說希望每次都要用到軍機嘛但是沒辦法就是不夠啊連軍機飛都還不夠呢跟委員報告金門因為這幾年你也很清楚小三通越來越多人小三通為什麼會這樣我跟你講這個我就不想再提了為什麼很多人都透過金門走小三通為什麼因為你們就不開放讓這個台灣地區的老百姓自己就\n飛啊 你們就要什麼 船客什麼 傘客可以 船客不行啊所以他們就到這裡 講實話叫做跨層 我已經重新問過去了我不研究那個比較複雜的問題 我是想說我們也歡迎很多人從那裡經過 但是我們的基本的交通人權不能被剝奪啦\n因為每一件到我這邊陳情安都是生離死別我們每天都感受到這些民航局 我要講幾個事情民航局其實很幫忙我們每次親自跟民航局一直拜託拜託到現場去航空公司也很幫忙大家會盡量來調航班或者是擴大機那有時候沒飛機我請求你華信航空 華航有大飛機每天調一台來飛今天都飛那個小飛機\n華航是國家的航空啊商業活動有比人權重要嗎\n放大畸形的工作我們也有在做啦對啊 你就固定做啊不要每天我們去反應做一次 我們去反應做一次啊因為這已經變成是一個常態了嘛這個第一個 第二個 像這種臨時的事情建立一個緊急惠普的機制 公開的就是說如果金門人有事情優先嘛 台灣也有要去金門的啊小三通要過去啊 那邊等啊金門也有嘛 優先惠普機制嘛 這個可以嗎\n這個我們需要討論一下我跟航空公司討論過了技術上沒有問題有一個政策特定身份的優先我們要全盤考慮這個有現場秩序的問題沒有現場秩序的問題這個登記的時候你填你是金門人還不是金門人到時候看有沒有身份證\n非金門的居民也就他有急事的時候會被在現場秩序來打亂到你還是要去登機候補的只是說比如兩個金門人候補然後一個台灣人可以候補兩個金門人這樣你整體看一下技術沒有問題啦技術沒有問題這個不然你看你想這是我幫你想的方法不然你告訴我有什麼方法不然你從華航調大飛機來我會請部長跟航空公司好好的去溝通\n增加或是擴大機型這個馬上可以做的85%的達成率啦這還不算百分之百的這個國軍的飛機飛下去每一年每一個節每一次颱風每一次連節都要拜託國防部來飛飛機這個很嚴重啦因為已經不是不是說去來觀光旅遊啦是基本人權都沒有生離死別都永遠沒有還有結婚的也沒有辦法回去到底要怎麼辦他已經前兩個月訂囉已經很早了吧\n總統在澎湖承諾的意思就是告訴行政院所有離島的問題我們都要解決總統還在澎湖承諾了要做一個腫瘤中心\n那我請教 這個問題呢 金門要做一個腫瘤中心啊總統在三軍訪問中心要設一個腫瘤中心在澎湖讓癌症的病患可以在地治療 離島的問題都是一樣的金門也是一樣啊 金門現在都沒有啊每一年 去年有800多位鄉親申請癌症的醫療交通\n補助800多位去113來我講完然後呢每一個人到這裡來治療要住宿要交通要對不對5到10萬都要錢嘛是不是那我們去年就我舊奶婆是去年我舊奶婆就一直講啊新政府也一直講啊以前我也問過蘇貞昌院長為何不一直在評估啊\n那你看總統去一下這個澎湖馬上就說一定解決我們是全面在檢討台灣各縣市包括離島現有的醫療資源有不足的我來補充那金門的部分部長來做說明跟委員報告這個我們金門的部分一直在強化他的醫療量能包含CD、MRI還有心療法人士都有了腫瘤的部分也可以在這邊做化學治療我知道 化療沒問題啊\n放射線嘛 因為如果有放射線治療就不應該被重視嗎不是 應該跟委員報告因為放射線的治療現在進步非常快沒錯非常的快那你說總統又總統答應在內總統答應在澎湖做一個來來 內總統答應在澎湖做一個的話內總統答應是放射腫瘤中心喔那內總統答應就是沒有來來來 部長\n戴總統答應說要在博物座放射腫瘤治療中那戴總統是醫生耶那醫療一直 我也知道這個實際上我討論過這個放射一直進步啊 沒錯啊那放射一直進步所以要新的嘛所以實際上比較不適合在那個做你認識是這樣子嗎不是不是 因為他進步很快啊你投資下去之後用的少 因為病人少對沒錯 因為你找的人少樣態很多 你到本島來有需要的時候本島來可以找到最合適的那總統說三軍總醫院\n澎湖分院要設立放射腫瘤中心讓罹患癌症的病人可以在地直接治療不必前往本島接受醫療服務那你是不是要跟賴清德說澎湖也不應該射這應該也是會評估啦這也會評估所以賴清德說的有可能不會實現就對了你意思是這樣子嗎\n腫瘤的照顧我們你告訴我目前澎湖也是有這個化學治療也是在進行進入到這個放射線的部分我們也都要評估是哪一種哪一種是合適的我覺得你是一個不錯的這個不錯的這個部長這是部長嗎怎麼跟我以前看到長不到像我在衛環委會的時候好像如來如笑臉石部長不要認錯人石部長\n我知道 他以前當那個署長 我在為環委會我現在是不想害你 因為那總統說要做你現在說要評估 你是說澎湖也要評估總統是醫生出身 他對於醫療的均衡非常的重視他認為這個地方的人口數 他的醫療量能達到什麼程度他必須做到什麼程度 我們會用均衡的發展來看\n他已經承諾要在澎湖做了 你們不要打臉他我沒有要求什麼 我要求跟澎湖一樣公平就這樣子你不能說澎湖的立法委員是民進黨你就做吧我們會一起評估會不會因為澎湖 來來來院長 會不會因為澎湖的立委是民進黨的啊信長是民進黨的啊不會不會嘛齁我們金門都不是 民進黨就不做不會吧不會不會嘛齁所以賴總統說澎湖可以做吧都是屬於中華民國國家的領土內都是國會議員 我們同樣尊重\n所以在澎湖可以做在金門如果我們的條件跟他一樣就我們的人口各方面都可以他能做我們也應該要公平對不對我就求公平而已\n我們會從均衡來佈置台灣 建部台灣整個的醫療治癒那在這之前 因為這東西還要一段時間你們研究好久了 已經六年了在這之前是把我們後送的機制 包括後端的部分在這個相關的費用要跟我們支持送到台灣來治療或是各方面離島到台灣島來治療的時候是很辛苦的\n每一年你知道嗎一直要每個月來很辛苦很辛苦然後做好治療的時候做好治療的時候你還沒有飛機回家你要從早上等到晚上\n非常非常辛苦啊離島居民是真的很苦啊我請大家將心比心啊那我們剛剛院長有說這個都是在中華民國領土內啦範圍內你都會一致公平的待遇啦我也就很想問這個問題啊這個中華民國的領土範圍啦我不是要問你政治問題喔我先問一下這個根據我想問一個禁限制水域的問題他是在管制大陸還是在前置金門的這個漁民根據兩個人民共一條第28條的規定\n為什麼海委會沒有自己上來時間暫停 陳委員需要沒關係 他們不放 只要議長可以回答就好 不用他可以回答就好了 來中華民國船舶航空器等等喔中華民國船航空器或其他運輸公司經主管需關需可可以航行到大陸地區嘛 你注意聽一下這個大陸這有法律規定 請問這個大陸地區怎麼定義\n我們現在除了台澎金馬是中華民國領土之外屬於中華人民共和國的我們都認為它是大陸的地區那現在哪裡\n各個地方不一樣以金門來講的話只要在我們的禁限制水域外根據韓式的話國防部所公告的禁限制水域外因為中國就說那個是他們的領海所以那個地方被界定為是大陸地區這個是法律問題我想部長也是法律專家國防部上來一下好了\n你說剛剛管秉主委回答是說因為中共認為那是他們禁憲制水位是他們的中共中國大陸認為禁憲制來看一下禁憲制水位這條線讓你們有點概念\n金門的禁限制水域這條看一下這國防部畫的這很久以前畫他的目的當初國防部的公告民國93年他的目的是為了第五點未經許可進入限制或禁止水域之大陸船舶他是要讓大陸船不能進來我們這裡吧所以畫了這條禁限制水域好根據剛管主委的意思是說因為大陸他是說大陸認為那邊是這條線以為是他們的領海\n所以我們不能過去 主委你的意思是這樣子嗎你剛剛是這樣說的嗎那個是大陸地區這個的定義那以韓式而言 在金門 馬祖大陸地區的定義是依韓式是這樣的定義韓式是怎樣 說一下應該是兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關兩岸人民關係條例 韓式就是我想知道金門跟馬祖的線就是在國防部公告的限制水域外\n這樣規定你告訴我你把法律告訴我哪一條我很想知道是哪一條這是一個函式對不起是一個函式你唸給我聽哪一個函式你唸給我函式我再把文字跟你講一下你要確定你說的是對的因為我有查相關資料\n你唸一下那個韓式的內容給我民國法務部八十九年法務部有一個韓式但是以金門馬祖而言國防部的這個韓式我們根據國防部的這個限制你把韓式內容唸清楚一點法務部有一個韓式你說什麼我們對於一般的漁民\n不會擾民那基本上基本上這個總共的案例一百幾百個移民沒有沒有沒有幾百個錯了錯了沒有沒有沒有沒有我們查的資料總共一百一十一年到現在最多的是在COVID-19的時候因為我們比較嚴因為我們要避免\n那個時候比較嚴所以那個時候只有99個人總共才17艘船總共才17艘船妳講這麼細 總院長聽不懂來 我們先全部都是走私來 如果走私我幫妳以後九艘\n去年有九騷跟九案全部都是走私你等一下喔如果走私我絕對不會包庇請你用力抓對 我們最主要就是你先不要插嘴我把它講完在2013年9月以後全部都是走私你不要插嘴我把它講完如果走私請用走私條例去辦他們你們現在辦的這些人可是議區兩岸人民關係條例有兩岸人民關係條例你先聽我講一下好嗎\n法律懲治人民罪行法定主義你要由他違法嘛如果走私你就用走私去辦他百分之一百贊成走私辦走私來聽我講完聽我講我要說你錯錯在哪裡走私你用走私辦今天這一百多位你聽我講完好不好你聽我講我要聽主席他一直不讓我講話差我時間我時間還給他多留五分鐘時間暫停\n你聽我講 我是要讓院長了解這個情形嘛我沒有說海委會做了什麼事情不對或是對嘛我們在談討 我在談的是法律問題我開始 你先聽我講法律問題但是事實也很重要 委員的那個印象故詐部長在這裡他是律師出身如果他違反走私 你用走私條例辦他嘛你們現在辦的全部都是叫做什麼 違反兩岸人民關係條例辦嘛\n如果他要走私 你用走私狀態應該的 百分之一千應該的那他違反聯安條約的原因是什麼你們的 我跟你講法院啊 地檢啊 或是各方原因的理由是什麼 因為他說我們舉法你先聽我講完好嗎 可不可以不要插嘴我要讓院長了解這情形 我想讓你們整個跨部會去了解這個情形因為你們說 跳過那條禁憲之水 就是\n就是走出去嘛 就是違反兩岸聯盟條例那我請顧議長 這是你們國防部 國防部長對嘛 你聽我講 未經許可進入大陸地區嘛好這個禁限之水域劃定是國防部劃的 他當初的目的是要未經許可進入禁限之水域之大陸船舶 他是要不讓大陸船進入到我們金門的禁限之水域不是不要讓金門的船劃定之線 不讓我們出去啊如果金門營要補營的話 現在都這樣子\n不用啊 開一開 魚魚油車超出那條線就不能補了如果這樣兩岸人民關係條例要修掉你聽我講完 我有看你先不要講 因為我最後還是要讓你們去研究我請顧部長看 這個是國防部公告他是 他要處罰是大陸傳播不是台灣地區拍風接馬的人他的處罰主體是大陸傳播好 第二個 你們處罰的理由你們處罰的理由是說\n違反兩岸人民關係條例根據兩岸人民關係條例第29條這個是規定禁止大陸的傳播管大陸不能進來好 那出去的部分呢他們處罰來 處罰是原因觸犯第28條28條就是說這個28條是違反兩岸人民關係條例第28條28條在這裡28條說的就是說\n大陸地區嗎你剛剛說的嗎金門的漁民如果出海捕魚用這條啦你們海巡用這條辦如果金門的漁民或是用那個觀光釣魚船的那種觀光船出去你們就說因為他們都跟著魚跑嘛那魚如果跑過那條線喔你看一下28條中華民國船舶什麼點點點要經過主管區那個部長顧長請你看一下他是經過主管區關係的德航行到大陸地區嗎好那現在就這些船\n還有會認為說這些漁民沒有經過許可所以他們走到大澳地區所以我剛才問說你先聽我講完我才問說那大澳地區的定義在哪裡嘛大澳地區是你管碧玲定義說這條線以內是台灣地區那條線以外是大澳地區嗎不是我定義的我們根據韓式不是我定義的我們根據韓式就是每一個法律在適用的時候他必須要進入很多第一個我麻煩你我們要從他的適用\n對 你聽我講 因為你這樣一直搶 我沒有辦法把它敘述很清楚好不好因為我特別請國安部長上來的原因是因為這樣的事情 因為你這樣子 如果齁我認為齁 如果沒有藍營議會委員說是我定義你聽我講完什麼地區 中華民國領土到哪裡 不是你定義好不好這個東西有一個叫做中華民國的有一個法律的 這個叫做\n臨海及臨街區法這個也不是你說的算也不是我說的算這是有法律的請按照法律行事嘛你要處罰人民你要法律嘛我想請問齁而且你剛剛一直說走私你用走私辦他我完全不反對問題是今天不同的犯行不同的犯行依不同的法律來處理所以你剛剛不要扯到走私走私你一定要抓我跟你講你開到大陸地區同時也有兩岸人民關係條例的問題\n113年以後到現在只有9個案\n100多個案子沒有 那個是在COVID-19的時候我們真的必須研究因為要禁止接觸這個案子為什麼會到我們的澄清案上就是因為他已經有100多個案子而且你再說一次在COVID-19期間比較多總共就是99加999加9 100多個\n但是如果我們的取締不對主管機關不會裁罰那如果我們所做的依法主管機關認為我們必須不做所以你覺得這是主管機關所以我才說這個是法律問題我們是期待執法的請你等一下你在執行嘛所以院長我今天要特別請您跟部長上來因為是光復這個我想\n請你們回去你們回去告訴我因為我們時間很早我要跟你們探討這個問題第一個禁縣之所以就是我們的大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個交界嗎是金門跟馬祖但是在其他的地方就不是這樣了委員你先聽我講完我要問院長然後我要請你回答因為這整個問題不是一個問題我把問題問完好嗎我會讓你回答好嗎我會讓你回答\n我讓你回答 用韓文來回答我第一個問題 這個大陸地區是你說韓式吧 請給我嘛我也歡迎你給我嘛 這個沒問題問題是這個大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個分界是由一個韓式或者由一個部會來決定嗎這個是第一個問題 這是法律問題\n第二個有一個法律如果有一個法律當地的老百姓這麼多人不停的在違法我不是說走私喔沒有沒有聽我講一百多個一百多件案子還不多那個COVID-19的時候我們真的必須要執法來避免接觸跟傳染但是那之後我們沒有對一般的漁民造成擾民我跟你講你說沒有齁到時候我請漁民來開會你們來你也來開會就知道有多少漁民的反應了\n如果這麼多人會違法 今天沒有那麼多移民啊今天沒有這麼多人會違法 我們是不是要考慮到這個法律的適用上面發生了什麼問題 您了解嗎法律也是與時俱進 我們來請主管機關回答你可以不要講 我請院長回答好嗎我要請院長回答 剩下沒有幾秒鐘第一個就是說 這個\n淨限制水域他應該是限制當大陸船不要來我們這裡你怎麼先把漁民限制把我們台灣地區的漁民限制不能出海捕魚呢如果你不要回來主席我一直不要讓他一直回來我是要跟院長講你這樣浪費我時間麻煩不要搶稿要搶完嘛請繼續我沒有要件你現在回來你也不用一直爭辯我也沒說你做錯好不好研究法律嘛因為我們今天就是要我們要時間就是要給那個院長來跟我們回答嘛\n這一個 研究一下這個法律是限制大陸人不要進來不是限制我們的漁民不能出海去捕魚啊漁遊出這條線他就不能撞第二個 第二個如果這麼多人一直違反這個法律那這個是不是在法律的適用或是解釋或是各方面上是不是要做適當的改變呢我剛剛聽到委員說我如果我們出去的漁船也會被大陸逮捕嗎當然啊所以我們要保護它\n麻煩行政院把陳玉珍委員要求的資料麻煩送一下陳玉珍委員辦公室好 非常謝謝陳玉珍委員的資訊謝謝卓院長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.351 --> 00:11.617\n來謝謝主席我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢院長\n\n00:25.951 --> 00:35.956\n因為我知道你等一下有事情如果我的問題多是名聲議題你可以很簡單明快的回答說不定我們也用不到25分鐘這個連續假期的時候金門以前連續假期都這個\n\n00:41.379 --> 01:05.291\n颱風啊起霧的時候金門大家常看新聞金門都是這個像去金門大家都說是金門三日遊變關島五日遊然後就非常辛苦對我們觀光形象影響也很大那時候也都三節的時候也都很難拿到票很難買到票居民啊連居民也很難買到票那我們居民要提早去定位啊好像搶票非常辛苦那連續假期連節說要返鄉我們有時候說這個\n\n01:09.033 --> 01:34.428\n好這個你們要解決希望你們解決但是現在啊事情已經嚴重到不是連續假期才發生了我想昨天總統去這個澎湖你們有沒有看到相關的新聞賴總統去澎湖的事情有看到嗎對不起前幾天去澎湖啦澎湖發生了就是說連續假期喔平日現在不只平日連機票也買不到金門也是一樣啊現在連平日連一張機票也買不到\n\n01:35.827 --> 02:00.647\n這個機票這個東西多重要這個交通啊在觀光客來講他是觀光旅遊在當地老百姓來講是基本人權啊行是一個基本人權更何況澎湖跟馬祖有船啊我們基本還沒有客輪可以到臺灣來啊我讓你看一下你看新馬澎湖之前上次我直訓的時候院長您說要研究對吧讓金門有一條新金門輪吧現在進度怎麼樣一年了\n\n02:01.588 --> 02:19.873\n部長說明跟委員報告因為院長有交代我們還是希望說朝向這個藍色公路就是用國家用航港局他們來建設你們這個金門輪未來金門有需要或馬祖有需要沒有需要嗎有需要的時候就可以去支援你研究結果金門有沒有需要\n\n02:20.663 --> 02:41.860\n都有需要那什麼時候要幫我們開始做如果由一個縣來養一艘船會非常的辛苦澎湖跟馬祖都有啦新台馬輪跟澎湖輪都有金門沒有我清楚但是您在金門應該也很了解一般如果我們要用客輪的話大家其實比較不喜歡啦有些還是希望飛機嘛那現在連飛機也沒位子啊\n\n02:42.580 --> 02:54.988\n那船的部分我們現在正在建置藍色公路那沒關係我知道航空局長跟我講過啦所以請問你這個什麼時候會研究出來什麼時候可以開始實行這個藍色公路這一段那什麼時候可以開始什麼時候編預算\n\n02:59.332 --> 03:16.645\n就是1102022年的預算編進去喔準備要買船但是船需要兩三年的這個購置的期間沒關係你已經有編制預算了嘛編那個預算要做這個新就是藍色公路這個金門啊花蓮這些備援的嘛我們今年藍色公路雖然還沒有買到船但是我們用租船的方式已經開始在走在養育量沒有\n\n03:17.285 --> 03:18.566\n4點多就有100多個人在排後部\n\n03:42.110 --> 04:05.366\n凌晨四點喔現在這個情形已經快變成每天的情形了我那天到機場後來我到機場去的時候五六點的時候這種互補很嚴重啊排不到位子不是說去觀光旅遊啊是回家回家也不是說是普通上班回家這種回家我在那邊的時候有個阿嬤她九十一歲啦她女兒七十一歲開出病危通知她沒有辦法回家看她女兒一九十一歲她女兒七十一歲\n\n04:10.902 --> 04:36.065\n等不到機會就是等不到機會因為每一班都是客滿都是客滿的沒有位子我們還在那邊協助啊那他的其他的那個那些那個女生的那個兄弟姐妹也要一起回去因為他那個就是他的女兒已經開病危了回不去啊那那個前一天晚上那一天晚上好幾組我實在是那一天晚上那前一天晚上經過一個女教師發生車禍啊半夜被車酒駕的撞死\n\n04:37.335 --> 05:05.873\n哥哥姊姊家人在台灣哥哥姊姊要回去幫忙去地檢署辦那個香宴啊什麼辦後事啊辦什麼沒有辦法回去沒有飛機位這個情形現在幾乎每天在發生啊要回去奔喪的要到台灣癌症要開刀什麼都沒有飛機位那總統前一天去澎湖說澎湖現在也是發生了說一票燃酒金門也是一樣啊那總統說他答應澎湖要幫澎湖解決那我昨天講這個也是很重要的事情你可以答應我幫金門解決嗎\n\n05:06.738 --> 05:23.963\n我們一起努力幫金門解決如果有這麼多的回家或是旅客表示這個市場是活絡的你知道金門這個航線台金航線的載客率去年有多少嗎那航空公司的部分我們應該要去協調有多少你知道嗎我跟你講85%這個還不包括如果沒有飛機的時候你看旁邊那個顧立雄幫我們多少忙\n\n05:33.682 --> 06:00.200\n軍機就一直飛一直飛一直飛一直飛但軍機畢竟是做國防的嘛對不對我們也不是說希望每次都要用到軍機嘛但是沒辦法就是不夠啊連軍機飛都還不夠呢跟委員報告金門因為這幾年你也很清楚小三通越來越多人小三通為什麼會這樣我跟你講這個我就不想再提了為什麼很多人都透過金門走小三通為什麼因為你們就不開放讓這個台灣地區的老百姓自己就\n\n06:01.321 --> 06:06.768\n飛啊你們就要什麼船客什麼傘客可以船客不行啊所以他們就到這裡講實話叫做跨層我已經重新問過去了我不研究那個比較複雜的問題我是想說我們也歡迎很多人從那裡經過但是我們的基本的交通人權不能被剝奪啦\n\n06:16.761 --> 06:44.006\n因為每一件到我這邊陳情安都是生離死別我們每天都感受到這些民航局我要講幾個事情民航局其實很幫忙我們每次親自跟民航局一直拜託拜託到現場去航空公司也很幫忙大家會盡量來調航班或者是擴大機那有時候沒飛機我請求你華信航空華航有大飛機每天調一台來飛今天都飛那個小飛機\n\n06:46.245 --> 06:49.916\n華航是國家的航空啊商業活動有比人權重要嗎\n\n06:51.124 --> 07:16.263\n放大畸形的工作我們也有在做啦對啊你就固定做啊不要每天我們去反應做一次我們去反應做一次啊因為這已經變成是一個常態了嘛這個第一個第二個像這種臨時的事情建立一個緊急惠普的機制公開的就是說如果金門人有事情優先嘛台灣也有要去金門的啊小三通要過去啊那邊等啊金門也有嘛優先惠普機制嘛這個可以嗎\n\n07:18.104 --> 07:35.863\n這個我們需要討論一下我跟航空公司討論過了技術上沒有問題有一個政策特定身份的優先我們要全盤考慮這個有現場秩序的問題沒有現場秩序的問題這個登記的時候你填你是金門人還不是金門人到時候看有沒有身份證\n\n07:36.784 --> 08:01.088\n非金門的居民也就他有急事的時候會被在現場秩序來打亂到你還是要去登機候補的只是說比如兩個金門人候補然後一個台灣人可以候補兩個金門人這樣你整體看一下技術沒有問題啦技術沒有問題這個不然你看你想這是我幫你想的方法不然你告訴我有什麼方法不然你從華航調大飛機來我會請部長跟航空公司好好的去溝通\n\n08:01.988 --> 08:26.625\n增加或是擴大機型這個馬上可以做的85%的達成率啦這還不算百分之百的這個國軍的飛機飛下去每一年每一個節每一次颱風每一次連節都要拜託國防部來飛飛機這個很嚴重啦因為已經不是不是說去來觀光旅遊啦是基本人權都沒有生離死別都永遠沒有還有結婚的也沒有辦法回去到底要怎麼辦他已經前兩個月訂囉已經很早了吧\n\n08:32.449 --> 08:37.032\n總統在澎湖承諾的意思就是告訴行政院所有離島的問題我們都要解決總統還在澎湖承諾了要做一個腫瘤中心\n\n08:55.540 --> 09:16.453\n那我請教這個問題呢金門要做一個腫瘤中心啊總統在三軍訪問中心要設一個腫瘤中心在澎湖讓癌症的病患可以在地治療離島的問題都是一樣的金門也是一樣啊金門現在都沒有啊每一年去年有800多位鄉親申請癌症的醫療交通\n\n09:17.433 --> 09:38.109\n補助800多位去113來我講完然後呢每一個人到這裡來治療要住宿要交通要對不對5到10萬都要錢嘛是不是那我們去年就我舊奶婆是去年我舊奶婆就一直講啊新政府也一直講啊以前我也問過蘇貞昌院長為何不一直在評估啊\n\n09:39.005 --> 10:05.664\n那你看總統去一下這個澎湖馬上就說一定解決我們是全面在檢討台灣各縣市包括離島現有的醫療資源有不足的我來補充那金門的部分部長來做說明跟委員報告這個我們金門的部分一直在強化他的醫療量能包含CD、MRI還有心療法人士都有了腫瘤的部分也可以在這邊做化學治療我知道化療沒問題啊\n\n10:07.385 --> 10:26.651\n放射線嘛因為如果有放射線治療就不應該被重視嗎不是應該跟委員報告因為放射線的治療現在進步非常快沒錯非常的快那你說總統又總統答應在內總統答應在澎湖做一個來來內總統答應在澎湖做一個的話內總統答應是放射腫瘤中心喔那內總統答應就是沒有來來來部長\n\n10:35.458 --> 11:02.232\n戴總統答應說要在博物座放射腫瘤治療中那戴總統是醫生耶那醫療一直我也知道這個實際上我討論過這個放射一直進步啊沒錯啊那放射一直進步所以要新的嘛所以實際上比較不適合在那個做你認識是這樣子嗎不是不是因為他進步很快啊你投資下去之後用的少因為病人少對沒錯因為你找的人少樣態很多你到本島來有需要的時候本島來可以找到最合適的那總統說三軍總醫院\n\n11:04.133 --> 11:20.646\n澎湖分院要設立放射腫瘤中心讓罹患癌症的病人可以在地直接治療不必前往本島接受醫療服務那你是不是要跟賴清德說澎湖也不應該射這應該也是會評估啦這也會評估所以賴清德說的有可能不會實現就對了你意思是這樣子嗎\n\n11:21.665 --> 11:48.664\n腫瘤的照顧我們你告訴我目前澎湖也是有這個化學治療也是在進行進入到這個放射線的部分我們也都要評估是哪一種哪一種是合適的我覺得你是一個不錯的這個不錯的這個部長這是部長嗎怎麼跟我以前看到長不到像我在衛環委會的時候好像如來如笑臉石部長不要認錯人石部長\n\n11:51.286 --> 12:14.296\n我知道他以前當那個署長我在為環委會我現在是不想害你因為那總統說要做你現在說要評估你是說澎湖也要評估總統是醫生出身他對於醫療的均衡非常的重視他認為這個地方的人口數他的醫療量能達到什麼程度他必須做到什麼程度我們會用均衡的發展來看\n\n12:14.876 --> 12:39.607\n他已經承諾要在澎湖做了你們不要打臉他我沒有要求什麼我要求跟澎湖一樣公平就這樣子你不能說澎湖的立法委員是民進黨你就做吧我們會一起評估會不會因為澎湖來來來院長會不會因為澎湖的立委是民進黨的啊信長是民進黨的啊不會不會嘛齁我們金門都不是民進黨就不做不會吧不會不會嘛齁所以賴總統說澎湖可以做吧都是屬於中華民國國家的領土內都是國會議員我們同樣尊重\n\n12:40.948 --> 12:48.894\n所以在澎湖可以做在金門如果我們的條件跟他一樣就我們的人口各方面都可以他能做我們也應該要公平對不對我就求公平而已\n\n12:49.909 --> 13:14.529\n我們會從均衡來佈置台灣建部台灣整個的醫療治癒那在這之前因為這東西還要一段時間你們研究好久了已經六年了在這之前是把我們後送的機制包括後端的部分在這個相關的費用要跟我們支持送到台灣來治療或是各方面離島到台灣島來治療的時候是很辛苦的\n\n13:15.330 --> 13:24.819\n每一年你知道嗎一直要每個月來很辛苦很辛苦然後做好治療的時候做好治療的時候你還沒有飛機回家你要從早上等到晚上\n\n13:25.595 --> 13:53.425\n非常非常辛苦啊離島居民是真的很苦啊我請大家將心比心啊那我們剛剛院長有說這個都是在中華民國領土內啦範圍內你都會一致公平的待遇啦我也就很想問這個問題啊這個中華民國的領土範圍啦我不是要問你政治問題喔我先問一下這個根據我想問一個禁限制水域的問題他是在管制大陸還是在前置金門的這個漁民根據兩個人民共一條第28條的規定\n\n13:56.342 --> 14:20.114\n為什麼海委會沒有自己上來時間暫停陳委員需要沒關係他們不放只要議長可以回答就好不用他可以回答就好了來中華民國船舶航空器等等喔中華民國船航空器或其他運輸公司經主管需關需可可以航行到大陸地區嘛你注意聽一下這個大陸這有法律規定請問這個大陸地區怎麼定義\n\n14:22.093 --> 14:28.004\n我們現在除了台澎金馬是中華民國領土之外屬於中華人民共和國的我們都認為它是大陸的地區那現在哪裡\n\n14:31.168 --> 14:48.456\n各個地方不一樣以金門來講的話只要在我們的禁限制水域外根據韓式的話國防部所公告的禁限制水域外因為中國就說那個是他們的領海所以那個地方被界定為是大陸地區這個是法律問題我想部長也是法律專家國防部上來一下好了\n\n14:54.129 --> 15:09.226\n你說剛剛管秉主委回答是說因為中共認為那是他們禁憲制水位是他們的中共中國大陸認為禁憲制來看一下禁憲制水位這條線讓你們有點概念\n\n15:10.475 --> 15:37.846\n金門的禁限制水域這條看一下這國防部畫的這很久以前畫他的目的當初國防部的公告民國93年他的目的是為了第五點未經許可進入限制或禁止水域之大陸船舶他是要讓大陸船不能進來我們這裡吧所以畫了這條禁限制水域好根據剛管主委的意思是說因為大陸他是說大陸認為那邊是這條線以為是他們的領海\n\n15:40.208 --> 16:07.294\n所以我們不能過去主委你的意思是這樣子嗎你剛剛是這樣說的嗎那個是大陸地區這個的定義那以韓式而言在金門馬祖大陸地區的定義是依韓式是這樣的定義韓式是怎樣說一下應該是兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關兩岸人民關係條例韓式就是我想知道金門跟馬祖的線就是在國防部公告的限制水域外\n\n16:08.254 --> 16:23.054\n這樣規定你告訴我你把法律告訴我哪一條我很想知道是哪一條這是一個函式對不起是一個函式你唸給我聽哪一個函式你唸給我函式我再把文字跟你講一下你要確定你說的是對的因為我有查相關資料\n\n16:24.756 --> 16:42.374\n你唸一下那個韓式的內容給我民國法務部八十九年法務部有一個韓式但是以金門馬祖而言國防部的這個韓式我們根據國防部的這個限制你把韓式內容唸清楚一點法務部有一個韓式你說什麼我們對於一般的漁民\n\n16:47.935 --> 16:57.757\n不會擾民那基本上基本上這個總共的案例一百幾百個移民沒有沒有沒有幾百個錯了錯了沒有沒有沒有沒有我們查的資料總共一百一十一年到現在最多的是在COVID-19的時候因為我們比較嚴因為我們要避免\n\n17:11.300 --> 17:17.448\n那個時候比較嚴所以那個時候只有99個人總共才17艘船總共才17艘船妳講這麼細總院長聽不懂來我們先全部都是走私來如果走私我幫妳以後九艘\n\n17:27.902 --> 17:50.095\n去年有九騷跟九案全部都是走私你等一下喔如果走私我絕對不會包庇請你用力抓對我們最主要就是你先不要插嘴我把它講完在2013年9月以後全部都是走私你不要插嘴我把它講完如果走私請用走私條例去辦他們你們現在辦的這些人可是議區兩岸人民關係條例有兩岸人民關係條例你先聽我講一下好嗎\n\n17:53.857 --> 18:10.208\n法律懲治人民罪行法定主義你要由他違法嘛如果走私你就用走私去辦他百分之一百贊成走私辦走私來聽我講完聽我講我要說你錯錯在哪裡走私你用走私辦今天這一百多位你聽我講完好不好你聽我講我要聽主席他一直不讓我講話差我時間我時間還給他多留五分鐘時間暫停\n\n18:20.316 --> 18:45.066\n你聽我講我是要讓院長了解這個情形嘛我沒有說海委會做了什麼事情不對或是對嘛我們在談討我在談的是法律問題我開始你先聽我講法律問題但是事實也很重要委員的那個印象故詐部長在這裡他是律師出身如果他違反走私你用走私條例辦他嘛你們現在辦的全部都是叫做什麼違反兩岸人民關係條例辦嘛\n\n18:46.767 --> 19:11.261\n如果他要走私你用走私狀態應該的百分之一千應該的那他違反聯安條約的原因是什麼你們的我跟你講法院啊地檢啊或是各方原因的理由是什麼因為他說我們舉法你先聽我講完好嗎可不可以不要插嘴我要讓院長了解這情形我想讓你們整個跨部會去了解這個情形因為你們說跳過那條禁憲之水就是\n\n19:12.262 --> 19:40.501\n就是走出去嘛就是違反兩岸聯盟條例那我請顧議長這是你們國防部國防部長對嘛你聽我講未經許可進入大陸地區嘛好這個禁限之水域劃定是國防部劃的他當初的目的是要未經許可進入禁限之水域之大陸船舶他是要不讓大陸船進入到我們金門的禁限之水域不是不要讓金門的船劃定之線不讓我們出去啊如果金門營要補營的話現在都這樣子\n\n19:42.262 --> 20:08.436\n不用啊開一開魚魚油車超出那條線就不能補了如果這樣兩岸人民關係條例要修掉你聽我講完我有看你先不要講因為我最後還是要讓你們去研究我請顧部長看這個是國防部公告他是他要處罰是大陸傳播不是台灣地區拍風接馬的人他的處罰主體是大陸傳播好第二個你們處罰的理由你們處罰的理由是說\n\n20:12.185 --> 20:30.496\n違反兩岸人民關係條例根據兩岸人民關係條例第29條這個是規定禁止大陸的傳播管大陸不能進來好那出去的部分呢他們處罰來處罰是原因觸犯第28條28條就是說這個28條是違反兩岸人民關係條例第28條28條在這裡28條說的就是說\n\n20:41.684 --> 21:10.843\n大陸地區嗎你剛剛說的嗎金門的漁民如果出海捕魚用這條啦你們海巡用這條辦如果金門的漁民或是用那個觀光釣魚船的那種觀光船出去你們就說因為他們都跟著魚跑嘛那魚如果跑過那條線喔你看一下28條中華民國船舶什麼點點點要經過主管區那個部長顧長請你看一下他是經過主管區關係的德航行到大陸地區嗎好那現在就這些船\n\n21:11.904 --> 21:37.710\n還有會認為說這些漁民沒有經過許可所以他們走到大澳地區所以我剛才問說你先聽我講完我才問說那大澳地區的定義在哪裡嘛大澳地區是你管碧玲定義說這條線以內是台灣地區那條線以外是大澳地區嗎不是我定義的我們根據韓式不是我定義的我們根據韓式就是每一個法律在適用的時候他必須要進入很多第一個我麻煩你我們要從他的適用\n\n21:39.191 --> 22:03.232\n對你聽我講因為你這樣一直搶我沒有辦法把它敘述很清楚好不好因為我特別請國安部長上來的原因是因為這樣的事情因為你這樣子如果齁我認為齁如果沒有藍營議會委員說是我定義你聽我講完什麼地區中華民國領土到哪裡不是你定義好不好這個東西有一個叫做中華民國的有一個法律的這個叫做\n\n22:04.737 --> 22:30.594\n臨海及臨街區法這個也不是你說的算也不是我說的算這是有法律的請按照法律行事嘛你要處罰人民你要法律嘛我想請問齁而且你剛剛一直說走私你用走私辦他我完全不反對問題是今天不同的犯行不同的犯行依不同的法律來處理所以你剛剛不要扯到走私走私你一定要抓我跟你講你開到大陸地區同時也有兩岸人民關係條例的問題\n\n22:34.036 --> 22:35.077\n113年以後到現在只有9個案\n\n22:51.811 --> 23:05.539\n100多個案子沒有那個是在COVID-19的時候我們真的必須研究因為要禁止接觸這個案子為什麼會到我們的澄清案上就是因為他已經有100多個案子而且你再說一次在COVID-19期間比較多總共就是99加999加9100多個\n\n23:15.322 --> 23:37.390\n但是如果我們的取締不對主管機關不會裁罰那如果我們所做的依法主管機關認為我們必須不做所以你覺得這是主管機關所以我才說這個是法律問題我們是期待執法的請你等一下你在執行嘛所以院長我今天要特別請您跟部長上來因為是光復這個我想\n\n23:40.411 --> 24:06.631\n請你們回去你們回去告訴我因為我們時間很早我要跟你們探討這個問題第一個禁縣之所以就是我們的大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個交界嗎是金門跟馬祖但是在其他的地方就不是這樣了委員你先聽我講完我要問院長然後我要請你回答因為這整個問題不是一個問題我把問題問完好嗎我會讓你回答好嗎我會讓你回答\n\n24:07.151 --> 24:26.428\n我讓你回答用韓文來回答我第一個問題這個大陸地區是你說韓式吧請給我嘛我也歡迎你給我嘛這個沒問題問題是這個大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個分界是由一個韓式或者由一個部會來決定嗎這個是第一個問題這是法律問題\n\n24:28.342 --> 24:56.362\n第二個有一個法律如果有一個法律當地的老百姓這麼多人不停的在違法我不是說走私喔沒有沒有聽我講一百多個一百多件案子還不多那個COVID-19的時候我們真的必須要執法來避免接觸跟傳染但是那之後我們沒有對一般的漁民造成擾民我跟你講你說沒有齁到時候我請漁民來開會你們來你也來開會就知道有多少漁民的反應了\n\n24:57.122 --> 25:16.968\n如果這麼多人會違法今天沒有那麼多移民啊今天沒有這麼多人會違法我們是不是要考慮到這個法律的適用上面發生了什麼問題您了解嗎法律也是與時俱進我們來請主管機關回答你可以不要講我請院長回答好嗎我要請院長回答剩下沒有幾秒鐘第一個就是說這個\n\n25:19.009 --> 25:44.739\n淨限制水域他應該是限制當大陸船不要來我們這裡你怎麼先把漁民限制把我們台灣地區的漁民限制不能出海捕魚呢如果你不要回來主席我一直不要讓他一直回來我是要跟院長講你這樣浪費我時間麻煩不要搶稿要搶完嘛請繼續我沒有要件你現在回來你也不用一直爭辯我也沒說你做錯好不好研究法律嘛因為我們今天就是要我們要時間就是要給那個院長來跟我們回答嘛\n\n25:45.902 --> 26:07.139\n這一個研究一下這個法律是限制大陸人不要進來不是限制我們的漁民不能出海去捕魚啊漁遊出這條線他就不能撞第二個第二個如果這麼多人一直違反這個法律那這個是不是在法律的適用或是解釋或是各方面上是不是要做適當的改變呢我剛剛聽到委員說我如果我們出去的漁船也會被大陸逮捕嗎當然啊所以我們要保護它\n\n26:19.853 --> 26:26.179\n麻煩行政院把陳玉珍委員要求的資料麻煩送一下陳玉珍委員辦公室好非常謝謝陳玉珍委員的資訊謝謝卓院長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.351,"end":11.617,"text":"來 謝謝主席我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢院長"},{"start":25.951,"end":35.956,"text":"因為我知道你等一下有事情如果我的問題多是名聲議題你可以很簡單明快的回答說不定我們也用不到25分鐘這個連續假期的時候金門以前連續假期都這個"},{"start":41.379,"end":65.291,"text":"颱風啊起霧的時候金門大家常看新聞金門都是這個像去金門大家都說是金門三日遊變關島五日遊然後就非常辛苦對我們觀光形象影響也很大那時候也都三節的時候也都很難拿到票很難買到票居民啊連居民也很難買到票那我們居民要提早去定位啊好像搶票非常辛苦那連續假期連節說要返鄉我們有時候說這個"},{"start":69.033,"end":94.428,"text":"好 這個你們要解決 希望你們解決但是現在啊 事情已經嚴重到不是連續假期才發生了我想昨天總統去這個澎湖 你們有沒有看到相關的新聞賴總統去澎湖的事情有看到嗎 對不起 前幾天去澎湖啦澎湖發生了就是說連續假期喔 平日現在不只平日連機票也買不到 金門也是一樣啊現在連平日連一張機票也買不到"},{"start":95.827,"end":120.647,"text":"這個機票這個東西多重要這個交通啊在觀光客來講他是觀光旅遊在當地老百姓來講是基本人權啊行是一個基本人權更何況澎湖跟馬祖有船啊我們基本還沒有客輪可以到臺灣來啊我讓你看一下你看新馬澎湖之前上次我直訓的時候院長您說要研究對吧讓金門有一條新金門輪吧現在進度怎麼樣一年了"},{"start":121.588,"end":139.873,"text":"部長說明跟委員報告因為院長有交代我們還是希望說朝向這個藍色公路就是用國家用航港局他們來建設你們這個金門輪未來金門有需要或馬祖有需要沒有需要嗎有需要的時候就可以去支援你研究結果金門有沒有需要"},{"start":140.663,"end":161.86,"text":"都有需要 那什麼時候要幫我們開始做如果由一個縣來養一艘船會非常的辛苦澎湖跟馬祖都有啦新台馬輪跟澎湖輪都有 金門沒有我清楚 但是您在金門應該也很了解一般如果我們要用客輪的話大家其實比較不喜歡啦有些還是希望飛機嘛那現在連飛機也沒位子啊"},{"start":162.58,"end":174.988,"text":"那船的部分我們現在正在建置藍色公路那沒關係我知道 航空局長跟我講過啦所以請問你這個什麼時候會研究出來什麼時候可以開始實行這個藍色公路這一段那什麼時候可以開始什麼時候編預算"},{"start":179.332,"end":196.645,"text":"就是110 2022年的預算編進去喔準備要買船 但是船需要兩三年的這個購置的期間沒關係 你已經有編制預算了嘛編那個預算要做這個新就是藍色公路這個金門啊花蓮這些備援的嘛我們今年藍色公路雖然還沒有買到船但是我們用租船的方式已經開始在走在養育量 沒有"},{"start":197.285,"end":198.566,"text":"4點多就有100多個人在排後部"},{"start":222.11,"end":245.366,"text":"凌晨四點喔現在這個情形已經快變成每天的情形了我那天到機場後來我到機場去的時候五六點的時候這種互補很嚴重啊 排不到位子不是說去觀光旅遊啊是回家 回家也不是說是普通上班回家這種回家我在那邊的時候有個阿嬤她九十一歲啦她女兒七十一歲開出病危通知她沒有辦法回家看她女兒一九十一歲 她女兒七十一歲"},{"start":250.902,"end":276.065,"text":"等不到機會就是等不到機會 因為每一班都是客滿都是客滿的 沒有位子我們還在那邊協助啊 那他的其他的那個那些那個女生的那個兄弟姐妹也要一起回去 因為他那個就是他的女兒已經開病危了 回不去啊那那個前一天晚上 那一天晚上好幾組我實在是 那一天晚上那前一天晚上 經過一個女教師發生車禍啊半夜被車 酒駕的撞死"},{"start":277.335,"end":305.873,"text":"哥哥姊姊家人在台灣哥哥姊姊要回去幫忙去地檢署辦那個香宴啊什麼辦後事啊辦什麼沒有辦法回去沒有飛機位這個情形現在幾乎每天在發生啊要回去奔喪的要到台灣癌症要開刀什麼都沒有飛機位那總統前一天去澎湖說澎湖現在也是發生了說一票燃酒金門也是一樣啊那總統說他答應澎湖要幫澎湖解決那我昨天講這個也是很重要的事情你可以答應我幫金門解決嗎"},{"start":306.738,"end":323.963,"text":"我們一起努力幫金門解決如果有這麼多的回家或是旅客表示這個市場是活絡的你知道金門這個航線台金航線的載客率去年有多少嗎那航空公司的部分我們應該要去協調有多少你知道嗎我跟你講85%這個還不包括如果沒有飛機的時候你看旁邊那個顧立雄幫我們多少忙"},{"start":333.682,"end":360.2,"text":"軍機就一直飛一直飛一直飛一直飛但軍機畢竟是做國防的嘛對不對我們也不是說希望每次都要用到軍機嘛但是沒辦法就是不夠啊連軍機飛都還不夠呢跟委員報告金門因為這幾年你也很清楚小三通越來越多人小三通為什麼會這樣我跟你講這個我就不想再提了為什麼很多人都透過金門走小三通為什麼因為你們就不開放讓這個台灣地區的老百姓自己就"},{"start":361.321,"end":366.768,"text":"飛啊 你們就要什麼 船客什麼 傘客可以 船客不行啊所以他們就到這裡 講實話叫做跨層 我已經重新問過去了我不研究那個比較複雜的問題 我是想說我們也歡迎很多人從那裡經過 但是我們的基本的交通人權不能被剝奪啦"},{"start":376.761,"end":404.006,"text":"因為每一件到我這邊陳情安都是生離死別我們每天都感受到這些民航局 我要講幾個事情民航局其實很幫忙我們每次親自跟民航局一直拜託拜託到現場去航空公司也很幫忙大家會盡量來調航班或者是擴大機那有時候沒飛機我請求你華信航空 華航有大飛機每天調一台來飛今天都飛那個小飛機"},{"start":406.245,"end":409.916,"text":"華航是國家的航空啊商業活動有比人權重要嗎"},{"start":411.124,"end":436.263,"text":"放大畸形的工作我們也有在做啦對啊 你就固定做啊不要每天我們去反應做一次 我們去反應做一次啊因為這已經變成是一個常態了嘛這個第一個 第二個 像這種臨時的事情建立一個緊急惠普的機制 公開的就是說如果金門人有事情優先嘛 台灣也有要去金門的啊小三通要過去啊 那邊等啊金門也有嘛 優先惠普機制嘛 這個可以嗎"},{"start":438.104,"end":455.863,"text":"這個我們需要討論一下我跟航空公司討論過了技術上沒有問題有一個政策特定身份的優先我們要全盤考慮這個有現場秩序的問題沒有現場秩序的問題這個登記的時候你填你是金門人還不是金門人到時候看有沒有身份證"},{"start":456.784,"end":481.088,"text":"非金門的居民也就他有急事的時候會被在現場秩序來打亂到你還是要去登機候補的只是說比如兩個金門人候補然後一個台灣人可以候補兩個金門人這樣你整體看一下技術沒有問題啦技術沒有問題這個不然你看你想這是我幫你想的方法不然你告訴我有什麼方法不然你從華航調大飛機來我會請部長跟航空公司好好的去溝通"},{"start":481.988,"end":506.625,"text":"增加或是擴大機型這個馬上可以做的85%的達成率啦這還不算百分之百的這個國軍的飛機飛下去每一年每一個節每一次颱風每一次連節都要拜託國防部來飛飛機這個很嚴重啦因為已經不是不是說去來觀光旅遊啦是基本人權都沒有生離死別都永遠沒有還有結婚的也沒有辦法回去到底要怎麼辦他已經前兩個月訂囉已經很早了吧"},{"start":512.449,"end":517.032,"text":"總統在澎湖承諾的意思就是告訴行政院所有離島的問題我們都要解決總統還在澎湖承諾了要做一個腫瘤中心"},{"start":535.54,"end":556.453,"text":"那我請教 這個問題呢 金門要做一個腫瘤中心啊總統在三軍訪問中心要設一個腫瘤中心在澎湖讓癌症的病患可以在地治療 離島的問題都是一樣的金門也是一樣啊 金門現在都沒有啊每一年 去年有800多位鄉親申請癌症的醫療交通"},{"start":557.433,"end":578.109,"text":"補助800多位去113來我講完然後呢每一個人到這裡來治療要住宿要交通要對不對5到10萬都要錢嘛是不是那我們去年就我舊奶婆是去年我舊奶婆就一直講啊新政府也一直講啊以前我也問過蘇貞昌院長為何不一直在評估啊"},{"start":579.005,"end":605.664,"text":"那你看總統去一下這個澎湖馬上就說一定解決我們是全面在檢討台灣各縣市包括離島現有的醫療資源有不足的我來補充那金門的部分部長來做說明跟委員報告這個我們金門的部分一直在強化他的醫療量能包含CD、MRI還有心療法人士都有了腫瘤的部分也可以在這邊做化學治療我知道 化療沒問題啊"},{"start":607.385,"end":626.651,"text":"放射線嘛 因為如果有放射線治療就不應該被重視嗎不是 應該跟委員報告因為放射線的治療現在進步非常快沒錯非常的快那你說總統又總統答應在內總統答應在澎湖做一個來來 內總統答應在澎湖做一個的話內總統答應是放射腫瘤中心喔那內總統答應就是沒有來來來 部長"},{"start":635.458,"end":662.232,"text":"戴總統答應說要在博物座放射腫瘤治療中那戴總統是醫生耶那醫療一直 我也知道這個實際上我討論過這個放射一直進步啊 沒錯啊那放射一直進步所以要新的嘛所以實際上比較不適合在那個做你認識是這樣子嗎不是不是 因為他進步很快啊你投資下去之後用的少 因為病人少對沒錯 因為你找的人少樣態很多 你到本島來有需要的時候本島來可以找到最合適的那總統說三軍總醫院"},{"start":664.133,"end":680.646,"text":"澎湖分院要設立放射腫瘤中心讓罹患癌症的病人可以在地直接治療不必前往本島接受醫療服務那你是不是要跟賴清德說澎湖也不應該射這應該也是會評估啦這也會評估所以賴清德說的有可能不會實現就對了你意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":681.665,"end":708.664,"text":"腫瘤的照顧我們你告訴我目前澎湖也是有這個化學治療也是在進行進入到這個放射線的部分我們也都要評估是哪一種哪一種是合適的我覺得你是一個不錯的這個不錯的這個部長這是部長嗎怎麼跟我以前看到長不到像我在衛環委會的時候好像如來如笑臉石部長不要認錯人石部長"},{"start":711.286,"end":734.296,"text":"我知道 他以前當那個署長 我在為環委會我現在是不想害你 因為那總統說要做你現在說要評估 你是說澎湖也要評估總統是醫生出身 他對於醫療的均衡非常的重視他認為這個地方的人口數 他的醫療量能達到什麼程度他必須做到什麼程度 我們會用均衡的發展來看"},{"start":734.876,"end":759.607,"text":"他已經承諾要在澎湖做了 你們不要打臉他我沒有要求什麼 我要求跟澎湖一樣公平就這樣子你不能說澎湖的立法委員是民進黨你就做吧我們會一起評估會不會因為澎湖 來來來院長 會不會因為澎湖的立委是民進黨的啊信長是民進黨的啊不會不會嘛齁我們金門都不是 民進黨就不做不會吧不會不會嘛齁所以賴總統說澎湖可以做吧都是屬於中華民國國家的領土內都是國會議員 我們同樣尊重"},{"start":760.948,"end":768.894,"text":"所以在澎湖可以做在金門如果我們的條件跟他一樣就我們的人口各方面都可以他能做我們也應該要公平對不對我就求公平而已"},{"start":769.909,"end":794.529,"text":"我們會從均衡來佈置台灣 建部台灣整個的醫療治癒那在這之前 因為這東西還要一段時間你們研究好久了 已經六年了在這之前是把我們後送的機制 包括後端的部分在這個相關的費用要跟我們支持送到台灣來治療或是各方面離島到台灣島來治療的時候是很辛苦的"},{"start":795.33,"end":804.819,"text":"每一年你知道嗎一直要每個月來很辛苦很辛苦然後做好治療的時候做好治療的時候你還沒有飛機回家你要從早上等到晚上"},{"start":805.595,"end":833.425,"text":"非常非常辛苦啊離島居民是真的很苦啊我請大家將心比心啊那我們剛剛院長有說這個都是在中華民國領土內啦範圍內你都會一致公平的待遇啦我也就很想問這個問題啊這個中華民國的領土範圍啦我不是要問你政治問題喔我先問一下這個根據我想問一個禁限制水域的問題他是在管制大陸還是在前置金門的這個漁民根據兩個人民共一條第28條的規定"},{"start":836.342,"end":860.114,"text":"為什麼海委會沒有自己上來時間暫停 陳委員需要沒關係 他們不放 只要議長可以回答就好 不用他可以回答就好了 來中華民國船舶航空器等等喔中華民國船航空器或其他運輸公司經主管需關需可可以航行到大陸地區嘛 你注意聽一下這個大陸這有法律規定 請問這個大陸地區怎麼定義"},{"start":862.093,"end":868.004,"text":"我們現在除了台澎金馬是中華民國領土之外屬於中華人民共和國的我們都認為它是大陸的地區那現在哪裡"},{"start":871.168,"end":888.456,"text":"各個地方不一樣以金門來講的話只要在我們的禁限制水域外根據韓式的話國防部所公告的禁限制水域外因為中國就說那個是他們的領海所以那個地方被界定為是大陸地區這個是法律問題我想部長也是法律專家國防部上來一下好了"},{"start":894.129,"end":909.226,"text":"你說剛剛管秉主委回答是說因為中共認為那是他們禁憲制水位是他們的中共中國大陸認為禁憲制來看一下禁憲制水位這條線讓你們有點概念"},{"start":910.475,"end":937.846,"text":"金門的禁限制水域這條看一下這國防部畫的這很久以前畫他的目的當初國防部的公告民國93年他的目的是為了第五點未經許可進入限制或禁止水域之大陸船舶他是要讓大陸船不能進來我們這裡吧所以畫了這條禁限制水域好根據剛管主委的意思是說因為大陸他是說大陸認為那邊是這條線以為是他們的領海"},{"start":940.208,"end":967.294,"text":"所以我們不能過去 主委你的意思是這樣子嗎你剛剛是這樣說的嗎那個是大陸地區這個的定義那以韓式而言 在金門 馬祖大陸地區的定義是依韓式是這樣的定義韓式是怎樣 說一下應該是兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關兩岸人民關係條例 韓式就是我想知道金門跟馬祖的線就是在國防部公告的限制水域外"},{"start":968.254,"end":983.054,"text":"這樣規定你告訴我你把法律告訴我哪一條我很想知道是哪一條這是一個函式對不起是一個函式你唸給我聽哪一個函式你唸給我函式我再把文字跟你講一下你要確定你說的是對的因為我有查相關資料"},{"start":984.756,"end":1002.374,"text":"你唸一下那個韓式的內容給我民國法務部八十九年法務部有一個韓式但是以金門馬祖而言國防部的這個韓式我們根據國防部的這個限制你把韓式內容唸清楚一點法務部有一個韓式你說什麼我們對於一般的漁民"},{"start":1007.935,"end":1017.757,"text":"不會擾民那基本上基本上這個總共的案例一百幾百個移民沒有沒有沒有幾百個錯了錯了沒有沒有沒有沒有我們查的資料總共一百一十一年到現在最多的是在COVID-19的時候因為我們比較嚴因為我們要避免"},{"start":1031.3,"end":1037.448,"text":"那個時候比較嚴所以那個時候只有99個人總共才17艘船總共才17艘船妳講這麼細 總院長聽不懂來 我們先全部都是走私來 如果走私我幫妳以後九艘"},{"start":1047.902,"end":1070.095,"text":"去年有九騷跟九案全部都是走私你等一下喔如果走私我絕對不會包庇請你用力抓對 我們最主要就是你先不要插嘴我把它講完在2013年9月以後全部都是走私你不要插嘴我把它講完如果走私請用走私條例去辦他們你們現在辦的這些人可是議區兩岸人民關係條例有兩岸人民關係條例你先聽我講一下好嗎"},{"start":1073.857,"end":1090.208,"text":"法律懲治人民罪行法定主義你要由他違法嘛如果走私你就用走私去辦他百分之一百贊成走私辦走私來聽我講完聽我講我要說你錯錯在哪裡走私你用走私辦今天這一百多位你聽我講完好不好你聽我講我要聽主席他一直不讓我講話差我時間我時間還給他多留五分鐘時間暫停"},{"start":1100.316,"end":1125.066,"text":"你聽我講 我是要讓院長了解這個情形嘛我沒有說海委會做了什麼事情不對或是對嘛我們在談討 我在談的是法律問題我開始 你先聽我講法律問題但是事實也很重要 委員的那個印象故詐部長在這裡他是律師出身如果他違反走私 你用走私條例辦他嘛你們現在辦的全部都是叫做什麼 違反兩岸人民關係條例辦嘛"},{"start":1126.767,"end":1151.261,"text":"如果他要走私 你用走私狀態應該的 百分之一千應該的那他違反聯安條約的原因是什麼你們的 我跟你講法院啊 地檢啊 或是各方原因的理由是什麼 因為他說我們舉法你先聽我講完好嗎 可不可以不要插嘴我要讓院長了解這情形 我想讓你們整個跨部會去了解這個情形因為你們說 跳過那條禁憲之水 就是"},{"start":1152.262,"end":1180.501,"text":"就是走出去嘛 就是違反兩岸聯盟條例那我請顧議長 這是你們國防部 國防部長對嘛 你聽我講 未經許可進入大陸地區嘛好這個禁限之水域劃定是國防部劃的 他當初的目的是要未經許可進入禁限之水域之大陸船舶 他是要不讓大陸船進入到我們金門的禁限之水域不是不要讓金門的船劃定之線 不讓我們出去啊如果金門營要補營的話 現在都這樣子"},{"start":1182.262,"end":1208.436,"text":"不用啊 開一開 魚魚油車超出那條線就不能補了如果這樣兩岸人民關係條例要修掉你聽我講完 我有看你先不要講 因為我最後還是要讓你們去研究我請顧部長看 這個是國防部公告他是 他要處罰是大陸傳播不是台灣地區拍風接馬的人他的處罰主體是大陸傳播好 第二個 你們處罰的理由你們處罰的理由是說"},{"start":1212.185,"end":1230.496,"text":"違反兩岸人民關係條例根據兩岸人民關係條例第29條這個是規定禁止大陸的傳播管大陸不能進來好 那出去的部分呢他們處罰來 處罰是原因觸犯第28條28條就是說這個28條是違反兩岸人民關係條例第28條28條在這裡28條說的就是說"},{"start":1241.684,"end":1270.843,"text":"大陸地區嗎你剛剛說的嗎金門的漁民如果出海捕魚用這條啦你們海巡用這條辦如果金門的漁民或是用那個觀光釣魚船的那種觀光船出去你們就說因為他們都跟著魚跑嘛那魚如果跑過那條線喔你看一下28條中華民國船舶什麼點點點要經過主管區那個部長顧長請你看一下他是經過主管區關係的德航行到大陸地區嗎好那現在就這些船"},{"start":1271.904,"end":1297.71,"text":"還有會認為說這些漁民沒有經過許可所以他們走到大澳地區所以我剛才問說你先聽我講完我才問說那大澳地區的定義在哪裡嘛大澳地區是你管碧玲定義說這條線以內是台灣地區那條線以外是大澳地區嗎不是我定義的我們根據韓式不是我定義的我們根據韓式就是每一個法律在適用的時候他必須要進入很多第一個我麻煩你我們要從他的適用"},{"start":1299.191,"end":1323.232,"text":"對 你聽我講 因為你這樣一直搶 我沒有辦法把它敘述很清楚好不好因為我特別請國安部長上來的原因是因為這樣的事情 因為你這樣子 如果齁我認為齁 如果沒有藍營議會委員說是我定義你聽我講完什麼地區 中華民國領土到哪裡 不是你定義好不好這個東西有一個叫做中華民國的有一個法律的 這個叫做"},{"start":1324.737,"end":1350.594,"text":"臨海及臨街區法這個也不是你說的算也不是我說的算這是有法律的請按照法律行事嘛你要處罰人民你要法律嘛我想請問齁而且你剛剛一直說走私你用走私辦他我完全不反對問題是今天不同的犯行不同的犯行依不同的法律來處理所以你剛剛不要扯到走私走私你一定要抓我跟你講你開到大陸地區同時也有兩岸人民關係條例的問題"},{"start":1354.036,"end":1355.077,"text":"113年以後到現在只有9個案"},{"start":1371.811,"end":1385.539,"text":"100多個案子沒有 那個是在COVID-19的時候我們真的必須研究因為要禁止接觸這個案子為什麼會到我們的澄清案上就是因為他已經有100多個案子而且你再說一次在COVID-19期間比較多總共就是99加999加9 100多個"},{"start":1395.322,"end":1417.39,"text":"但是如果我們的取締不對主管機關不會裁罰那如果我們所做的依法主管機關認為我們必須不做所以你覺得這是主管機關所以我才說這個是法律問題我們是期待執法的請你等一下你在執行嘛所以院長我今天要特別請您跟部長上來因為是光復這個我想"},{"start":1420.411,"end":1446.631,"text":"請你們回去你們回去告訴我因為我們時間很早我要跟你們探討這個問題第一個禁縣之所以就是我們的大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個交界嗎是金門跟馬祖但是在其他的地方就不是這樣了委員你先聽我講完我要問院長然後我要請你回答因為這整個問題不是一個問題我把問題問完好嗎我會讓你回答好嗎我會讓你回答"},{"start":1447.151,"end":1466.428,"text":"我讓你回答 用韓文來回答我第一個問題 這個大陸地區是你說韓式吧 請給我嘛我也歡迎你給我嘛 這個沒問題問題是這個大陸地區跟台灣地區的這個分界是由一個韓式或者由一個部會來決定嗎這個是第一個問題 這是法律問題"},{"start":1468.342,"end":1496.362,"text":"第二個有一個法律如果有一個法律當地的老百姓這麼多人不停的在違法我不是說走私喔沒有沒有聽我講一百多個一百多件案子還不多那個COVID-19的時候我們真的必須要執法來避免接觸跟傳染但是那之後我們沒有對一般的漁民造成擾民我跟你講你說沒有齁到時候我請漁民來開會你們來你也來開會就知道有多少漁民的反應了"},{"start":1497.122,"end":1516.968,"text":"如果這麼多人會違法 今天沒有那麼多移民啊今天沒有這麼多人會違法 我們是不是要考慮到這個法律的適用上面發生了什麼問題 您了解嗎法律也是與時俱進 我們來請主管機關回答你可以不要講 我請院長回答好嗎我要請院長回答 剩下沒有幾秒鐘第一個就是說 這個"},{"start":1519.009,"end":1544.739,"text":"淨限制水域他應該是限制當大陸船不要來我們這裡你怎麼先把漁民限制把我們台灣地區的漁民限制不能出海捕魚呢如果你不要回來主席我一直不要讓他一直回來我是要跟院長講你這樣浪費我時間麻煩不要搶稿要搶完嘛請繼續我沒有要件你現在回來你也不用一直爭辯我也沒說你做錯好不好研究法律嘛因為我們今天就是要我們要時間就是要給那個院長來跟我們回答嘛"},{"start":1545.902,"end":1567.139,"text":"這一個 研究一下這個法律是限制大陸人不要進來不是限制我們的漁民不能出海去捕魚啊漁遊出這條線他就不能撞第二個 第二個如果這麼多人一直違反這個法律那這個是不是在法律的適用或是解釋或是各方面上是不是要做適當的改變呢我剛剛聽到委員說我如果我們出去的漁船也會被大陸逮捕嗎當然啊所以我們要保護它"},{"start":1579.853,"end":1586.179,"text":"麻煩行政院把陳玉珍委員要求的資料麻煩送一下陳玉珍委員辦公室好 非常謝謝陳玉珍委員的資訊謝謝卓院長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1116,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（18時49分）謝謝主席。我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：25分，我知道你等一下有事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果我的問題都是民生議題，你可以很簡單明快地回答，說不定我們也用不到25分鐘。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：金門以前連續假期碰到颱風、起霧的時候，大家常看新聞，都說去金門三日遊變「關島」五日遊，然後就非常辛苦，對我們觀光形象影響也很大，三節的時候也都很難買到票，連居民也很難買到票，我們居民都要提早去訂位、搶票，非常辛苦，連續假期、年節要返鄉，我們有說希望你們要解決，但是現在事情已經嚴重到不是連續假期才發生。","昨天總統去澎湖，你們有沒有看到相關的新聞？賴總統去澎湖的事情，有看到嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：前幾天去的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對不起，是前幾天去澎湖啦。澎湖發生連續假期……不！現在不只假日，連平日機票也買不到，金門也是一樣，現在連平日一張機票也買不到，機票有多重要？交通在觀光客來講是觀光旅遊，在當地老百姓來講是基本人權，行是一個基本人權，更何況澎湖跟馬祖有船，我們金門還沒有客輪可以到臺灣來。你看一下，上次我質詢的時候，院長說要研究讓金門有一條新金門輪，現在進度怎麼樣？一年了。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，因為院長有交代，我們還是希望朝向藍色公路，就是用國家、用航港局，他們來建置一個藍色公路……"],["陳委員玉珍：新金門輪，你們研究的怎麼樣？"],["陳部長世凱：未來金門有需要或馬祖有需要……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有需要嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有需要的時候，就可以去支援。"],["陳委員玉珍：你研究的結果，金門有沒有需要？"],["陳部長世凱：都有需要，但是如果……"],["陳委員玉珍：那什麼時候要幫我們開始做？"],["陳部長世凱：如果由一個縣來養一艘船會非常的辛苦。"],["陳委員玉珍：你都不了解，澎湖跟馬祖都有啦！新臺馬輪跟澎湖輪都有，金門沒有。"],["陳部長世凱：我清楚，但是您在金門應該也很了解，一般如果我們要用客輪的話，大家其實比較不喜歡啦，優先還是希望飛機嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：是，現在連飛機也沒位子啊！插翅難飛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。船的部分，我們現在正在建置藍色公路，也就是說由交通部來購買船。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那沒關係，我知道，航港局長跟我講過，請問你什麼時候會研究出來？什麼時候可以開始施行藍色公路這一段？"],["陳部長世凱：已經研究出來了，我們明年就會開始編預算準備要買船。"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼時候可以開始？什麼時候編預算？"],["陳部長世凱：明年就編預算，準備要買船。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是2026年的預算編進去了！"],["陳部長世凱：但是船須要兩、三年購置的期間。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，你已經有編製預算了嘛？編了預算要做藍色公路，金門、花蓮這些備援的嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會朝這個方向做，今年藍色公路雖然還沒有買到船，但是我們用租船的方式已經開始在走、在養運量。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是說到金門的船，2026年的預算有編進去了嘛！好，可以，謝謝。","再來，我想請問飛機的問題，民航局實際上也做得很好，我也很感謝他們，但是我想請局長看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員玉珍：這是有一天早上四點半的時候，在松山機場前面，四點多就有一百多個人在排候補，凌晨四點喔！現在這個情形已經快要變成每天的情形了，我那天到機場去，五、六點的時候，這種候補情形很嚴重啊！排不到位置，不是說去觀光旅遊啊！是回家，也不是普通上班回家的這種回家。我在那邊的時候，有一個阿嬤91歲，他女兒71歲被開出病危通知，他沒有辦法回家看他女兒，他91歲，他女兒71歲，他等不到機位就是等不到機位，因為每一班都客滿、沒有位置，我們還在那邊協助，那個女生的兄弟姐妹也要一起回去，因為阿嬤的女兒已經開病危了，回不去啊！那天有好幾組，實在是……前一天晚上，金門一個女教師發生車禍，半夜被酒駕的撞死，哥哥、姐姐還有家人在臺灣，要回去幫忙去地檢署辦相驗、辦後事等等，沒有辦法回去，沒有飛機位。這個情形現在幾乎每天在發生啊，要回去奔喪的、癌症要到臺灣開刀的，都沒有機位！賴總統前一天去澎湖，說澎湖現在也發生一票難求的情形，金門也是一樣啊！賴總統答應澎湖要幫澎湖解決，卓院長，這個是很重要的事情，你可以答應我幫金門解決嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起努力幫金門解決。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有這麼多的……"],["陳委員玉珍：很多啊！你去問一下民航……"],["卓院長榮泰：有這麼多的回家或是旅客，表示這個市場是活絡的。"],["陳委員玉珍：是啊，你知道金門臺金航線的載客率去年有多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，航空公司的部分，我們應該要去協調。"],["陳委員玉珍：交通部長知道有多少嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：數字我沒有掌握。"],["陳委員玉珍：我跟你講85%，這個還不包括如果沒有飛機的時候，你看看旁邊的顧立雄幫我們多少忙？軍機就一直飛、一直飛、一直飛，但軍機畢竟是做國防的嘛！我們也不是希望每次都要用到軍機嘛，但是沒辦法，就是不夠啊，連軍機飛都還不夠！"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，你也很清楚，金門因為這幾年小三通越來越多人……"],["陳委員玉珍：小三通，為什麼會這樣？我跟你講，這個我就不想再提了，為什麼很多人都透過金門走小三通去大陸，為什麼？因為你們就不開放讓臺灣地區的老百姓自己飛啊！你們就要什麼散客可以、團客不行啊……"],["陳部長世凱：這是人潮多的因素……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他們就到這裡，講實話叫做化整為零，從金門過去。"],["陳部長世凱：主要的因素，跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不研究那個比較複雜問題，我想說的是我們也歡迎很多人從那裡經過，但是我們基本的交通人權不能被剝奪，因為每一件到我這邊的陳情案都是生離死別，我們每天都感受到……"],["陳部長世凱：我們國內的航班確實是運量不太足夠的……"],["陳委員玉珍：有關民航局，我要講幾個事情，民航局其實很幫忙，我們每次親自跟民航局一直拜託、一直拜託。我到現場去，航空公司也很幫忙，我也沒說他們不幫忙……"],["陳部長世凱：現在會儘量來調航班或者是擴大機型，這兩種辦法。"],["陳委員玉珍：有時候沒飛機。我請求你，華信航空、華航有大飛機，每天調一台大飛機來飛，現在都飛小飛機。華航是國家的航空，商業活動有比人權重要嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：放大機型的工作，我們也有在做了。如果運量不足，放大機型……"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊，你就固定做，不要我們反應才做一次、反應了才做一次，這已經變成常態了，這是第一個。","第二個，像這種臨時的事情，建立一個緊急候補的機制、公開的機制，如果金門人有事情優先，比如說臺灣也有要去金門的，小三通要過去的人在那邊等，金門也有嘛！建立優先候補機制，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們需要討論一下，要跟航空公司來討論這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：我問院長……我跟航空公司討論過了，技術上沒有問題，要有一個政策。"],["卓院長榮泰：對特定身分的優先……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，當然是確定身分啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要全盤考慮，這有現場秩序的問題，還有……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有現場秩序問題，這個去登記的時候，你填你是不是金門人，到時候看有沒有身分證。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，但非金門的居民也許他也有急事的時候，會被現場的秩序打亂……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，你還是要去登記候補，只是比如說，兩個金門人候補，然後一個臺灣人可以候補，兩個金門……"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們整體來考量，再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員玉珍：你整體看一下！技術沒有問題啦！這是我幫你想的方法，不然你告訴我有什麼方法？不然你從華航調給大飛機來。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長跟航空公司好好去溝通，增加或是擴大機型，這個馬上可以做的……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，85%的搭乘率，這還不算100%國軍的飛機飛下去，每一年、每一個節、每一次颱風、每一次年節都要拜託國防部來飛飛機，真的很嚴重啦！因為已經不是來觀光旅遊，是基本人權都沒有、生離死別都沒有辦法回去，還有結婚的也沒辦法回去，你告訴我，我到底要怎麼辦？他已經前2個月訂了，已經很早了吧？OK，這個請幫忙解決。賴總統既然在澎湖可以承諾，我想院長你也是愛民如子，應該可以幫我們解決吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我想總統在澎湖承諾的意思，就是告訴行政院所有離島的問題，我們都要解決。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！一樣嘛，對不對？那總統所說的，我想對於離島，對於澎湖、金門，你們應該沒有差別待遇吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。總統在澎湖承諾要做一個腫瘤中心，關於這個問題我想請教，金門也要做一個腫瘤中心啊！總統在澎湖三軍總醫院澎湖分院要設一個腫瘤中心，讓癌症的病患可以在地治療。","離島的問題都是一樣的，金門也是一樣啊！金門現在都沒有，去（113）年有八百多位鄉親申請癌症的醫療交通補助，每一個人到這裡來治療，要住宿、交通等等要5到10萬，這都要錢嘛，是不是？去年就任以後我就一直講，新政府也一直講，以前我也問過蘇貞昌院長，衛福部一直在評估。但你看總統去一下澎湖，馬上就說一定解決，設一個腫瘤中心。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是全面檢討各地……"],["陳委員玉珍：全面檢討，我們金門什麼時間可以……"],["卓院長榮泰：包括臺灣各縣市、離島，現有的醫療資源有不足的，我們來補充，金門的部分部長來做說明。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，金門的部分一直在強化它的醫療量能，包含CT、MRI、心導管室，這都有了……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道。"],["石部長崇良：那腫瘤的部分，也可以在這邊做化學治療，現在一個月可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道化療沒問題啊，我說是放射線。"],["石部長崇良：放射線因為我們現在……"],["陳委員玉珍：放射線就不應該被重視嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，因為放射線的治療，現在進步非常快。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯。"],["石部長崇良：非常的快，你沒有辦法讓所有最新的機型都在那個地方。"],["陳委員玉珍：賴總統答應在澎湖做的是放射腫瘤中心喔！那賴總統這種答應就是沒有……部長，賴總統答應說要在澎湖做放射腫瘤治療中心，賴總統是醫生。我也知道，這個事實上我也討論過，放射一直進步，沒錯啊！放射技術一直在進步的情況下，所以要新的吧？實際上，比較不適合在那裡做，你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["石部長崇良：不是。因為它進步很快，投資下去之後用得少，因為病人少……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，沒錯。因為離島人口少。"],["石部長崇良：但樣態很多，你到本島來……"],["陳委員玉珍：你現在是打臉賴清德嗎？"],["石部長崇良：有需要的時候到本島，可以找到最合適的醫療方式，也可以很快做……"],["陳委員玉珍：賴總統說三軍總醫院澎湖分院要設立放射腫瘤治療中心，讓罹患癌症的病人可以在地直接治療，不必再前往本島接受醫療服務。你是不是要跟賴清德說澎湖也不應該設？"],["石部長崇良：這應該也是會評估啦！還會再評估……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以賴總統說的有可能不會實現就對了，你意思是這樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：腫瘤的照護是日新月異，我們一定會去做……"],["陳委員玉珍：你告訴我，賴清德總統在澎湖講的……來、來……"],["石部長崇良：目前澎湖也是有化學治療，也是在進行……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，請問放射呢？"],["石部長崇良：倘若要往前再進入到放射線的部分，我們也都要再評估哪一種是合適的？有沒有這需求？"],["陳委員玉珍：我覺得你是一個不錯的部長，這是部長嗎？怎麼跟我以前在衛環委員會的時後看到的不太像，好像愈來愈年輕了。"],["卓院長榮泰：這位是石部長，不要認錯人了。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，以前我在衛環委員會時，他是擔任署長。我現在是不想害你，因為賴總統說要做！你現在說要評估，你是說澎湖也要評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統是醫生出身，他對於醫療的均衡是非常的重視。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他認為這個地方的人口數、醫療量能……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們的人口數比澎湖多。"],["卓院長榮泰：達到什麼程度、必須做到什麼程度？我們會用均衡的發展來看待。"],["陳委員玉珍：他已經承諾要在澎湖做了，你們不要打臉他，我沒有要求什麼，只要求跟澎湖一樣公平就好。你不能說澎湖的立法委員是民進黨籍的就做吧？"],["石部長崇良：我們會一起評估。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長會不會因為澎湖立委是民進黨的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：縣長也是民進黨的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：不會嘛！金門都不是民進黨的就不做吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：不會嘛！所以賴總統說澎湖可以做嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：都是屬於中華民國國家的領土內……"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：都是國會議員，我們同樣尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：太好了。所以在澎湖可以做，如果金門的條件一樣，就人口及各方面跟他們都一樣，他能做，我們也應該要公平，對不對？我就求公平而已啊！沒問題吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會均衡布建整個臺灣的醫療資源。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我也知道這東西還需要一段時間，你們研究好久了，已經6年了。在這之前是不是對於緊急醫療後送的機制，包括後端的部分，這些相關的費用要給我們支持啊！要送到臺灣來治療或是各方面，因為離島到臺灣本島治療是很辛苦的，你知道嗎？每個月要一直來回很辛苦啊！"],["石部長崇良：這種緊急的、駐地的飛機後送，我們會持續支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：很辛苦，做好治療的時候，你還沒有飛機回家，要從早上等到晚上，非常、非常辛苦，離島居民是真的很苦啊！我請大家將心比心。剛剛院長有說都是在中華民國領土內、範圍內，會有一致的公平待遇吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：我很想問這個問題，中華民國的領土範圍，我不是要問你政治問題。我先問一下，有關禁限制水域的問題，它是在管制大陸還是箝制金門的漁民？根據兩岸人民關係條例第二十八條的規定……在詢問禁限制水域的問題，為什麼海委會官員沒有上來？"],["卓院長榮泰：請海委會。"],["主席：時間暫停，陳委員需要……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係！他們不上來的話，只要院長可以回答就好。不用暫停，他可以回答就好了。"],["主席：好的。"],["陳委員玉珍：在中華民國的船舶、航空器或其他運輸工具，經主管機關許可，可以航行到大陸地區嘛！你注意聽一下這個法律規定，請問大陸地區怎麼定義？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在除了臺、澎、金、馬是中華民國領土之外，屬於中華人民共和國的，我們都認為是大陸地區。"],["陳委員玉珍：叫大陸地區，OK！好，請問禁線在哪裡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：各個地方不一樣喔！以金門來講的話，只要在我們禁限制水域外，根據國防部函釋所公告的禁限制水域外，因為中國說那是他們的領海，所以那個地方就被界定為大陸地區。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是法律問題，我想又牽扯到國防部，部長也是法律專家，請國防部上來一下。"],["主席：請國防部部長上台備詢。"],["陳委員玉珍：剛剛管碧玲主委的回答是，因為中共認為禁限制水域外是他們的，中國大陸認為禁限制水域……來，看一下簡報上禁限制水域這一條線，讓你們有點概念，金門的禁限制水域，這一條是國防部很久以前所劃設的，當初國防部在民國93年所公告的目的是為了……在公告的第五點：「未經許可進入限制或禁止水域之大陸船舶……」，它是要讓大陸船舶不能進來我們這裡吧！所以劃了這條禁限制水域。根據剛剛管主委的意思是說，因為大陸認為那條線以外是他們的領海，所以我們不能過去。主委，你的意思是這樣子嗎？你剛剛是這樣說的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是大陸地區對這個的定義，以函釋而言，在金門、馬祖對大陸地區的定義，依函釋是這樣的定義。"],["陳委員玉珍：函釋是應該怎樣？說一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：應該是兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關，就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：兩岸人民關係條例？我想知道的是金門地區跟大陸地區的線在哪裡。"],["管主任委員碧玲：以國防部所公告，金門跟馬祖的線就是在國防部公告的限制水域外。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪一條這樣規定，你告訴我？你把法律告訴我，哪一條？我很想知道是哪一條，你告訴我哪一條？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是一個函釋，對不起，是一個函釋……"],["陳委員玉珍：函釋你唸給我聽，哪一個函釋你唸給我聽。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我再把函釋的文字……"],["陳委員玉珍：我跟你講，你要確定你說的是對的，因為我有查相關資料。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我確定是一個函釋，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你唸一下那個函釋的內容給我。"],["管主任委員碧玲：法務部在民國89年……"],["陳委員玉珍：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：法務部有一個函釋，但是以金門、馬祖而言，國防部的這個函釋……我們根據國防部的禁限制水域外……"],["陳委員玉珍：你把函釋內容唸清楚一點，你慢慢講，法務部有一個函釋說什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們對於一般的漁民不會擾民，基本上，總共的案例最主要……"],["陳委員玉珍：幾百個漁民被你們……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有、沒有，沒有幾百個，委員錯了、錯了，沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有？我是查的法務部的資料！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們查的資料是，總共111年到現在，最多的是在COVID-19的時候，因為我們比較嚴，因為我們要避免接觸……"],["陳委員玉珍：你告訴我沒有幾百人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：那時候比較嚴，所以那時候只有99個人，總共才……"],["陳委員玉珍：到現在已經一百多了！"],["管主任委員碧玲：總共才十七艘船，總共才十七艘船……"],["陳委員玉珍：你講得這麼細，卓院長聽不懂！"],["管主任委員碧玲：去年以後全部都是走私，去年以後9艘跟9案全部都是走私！"],["陳委員玉珍：你等一下！如果走私，我絕對不會包庇，請你用力抓！"],["管主任委員碧玲：最主要是去（113）年9月以後全部都是走私……"],["陳委員玉珍：你先不要插嘴，我把它講完……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們對一般漁民沒有擾民！"],["陳委員玉珍：如果走私，請用走私條例去辦他們，你們現在辦的這些人……主委先聽我講，好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：可是依據兩岸人民關係條例，有兩岸人民關係條例取締的必要……"],["陳委員玉珍：你先聽我講一下，好嗎？法律懲治人民是採罪刑法定主義，所以必須他有違法，如果走私，你就用走私去辦，這樣我百分之一百贊成！"],["管主任委員碧玲：兩岸人民關係條例也是依法行政……"],["陳委員玉珍：聽我講完，我要說你錯在哪裡！走私你用走私辦，今天這一百多人……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果我們有錯，主管機關不會裁罰。"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽我講完，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們有錯，主管機關不會裁罰。"],["陳委員玉珍：請你……你可以不要……主席，他一直不讓我講話，插我時間，我還給他留5分鐘時間耶！"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽我講完，我是要讓院長了解情形，我沒有說海委會做什麼事情不對或是對，我在探討的是法律問題。好，我要開始了，你先聽我講法律問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是事實也很重要，委員的那個印象、那個印象……"],["陳委員玉珍：顧大部長在這裡，他是律師出身。如果他違反走私，你用走私條例辦他，但你們現在全部都用違反兩岸人民關係條例辦！如果他走私，你用走私抓他是應該的，百分之一千應該！至於他違反兩岸人民關係條例的原因是什麼？法院、地檢或者各方面的原因與理由是什麼？因為他說……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們執法，我們必須執法的部分就必須執法……"],["陳委員玉珍：你先聽我講完，好嗎？可不可以不要插嘴？我要讓院長了解情形，而且我想讓你們跨部會去了解情形。因為你們說他們跨過那條禁限制水域，所以就是走出去，就是違反兩岸人民關係條例。我請教國防部顧部長……"],["管主任委員碧玲：未經許可進入大陸地區……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，未經許可進入大陸地區。好，這條禁限制水域是國防部劃的，當初的目的是要未經許可進入禁限制水域之大陸船舶，他是不讓大陸船舶進入到金門的禁限制水域，不是畫地自限、不讓金門的船出去！如果金門漁民要捕魚，現在都這樣子，捕魚的話就開開開，看到有魚了，結果只要魚游超出那條線就不能捕了！"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果是這樣的話，那兩岸人民關係條例要修掉……"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽我講完，你聽我講完！"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果可以去就要修掉。"],["陳委員玉珍：你先不要講，我最後還是要請你們去研究。請顧部長看一下，這是國防部的公告，要處罰的是大陸船舶，不是臺灣地區，不是金門或臺澎金馬的人，處罰的主體是大陸船舶。","第二個，你們處罰的理由是說違反兩岸人民關係條例，根據兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條規定，禁止大陸船舶進來，所以是管大陸的船不能進來。好，那出去的部分呢？處罰的原因是觸犯第二十八條，就是違反兩岸人民關係條例第二十八條。第二十八條說的是大陸地區，而你剛剛說的金門漁民如果出海捕魚，你們海巡用這一條辦，如果金門的漁民或是用觀光釣魚船的那種觀光船出去，因為他們都跟著魚跑，魚如果跑過去那一條線，你看一下，第二十八條規定：「中華民國船舶、航空器及其他運輸工具，經主管機關許可，得航行至大陸地區。」現在針對這些船，海委會認為這些漁民沒有經過許可就到大陸地區，所以我剛才問說……"],["管主任委員碧玲：取締的案子是這樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：你先聽我講完！我才問大陸地區的定義在哪裡嘛！大陸地區是由管碧玲定義這條線以內是臺灣地區、那條線以外是大陸地區嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是我定義的，我們是根據函釋。"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是我定義的，我們是根據函釋，就是每一個法律適用的時候必須要經過很多函釋去補充它的適用。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你聽我講，因為你這樣子一直搶話，我沒有辦法把它敘述的很清楚，好不好？我特別請國防部長上來的原因是因為這樣的事情，因為你這樣子，如果我認為那個禁限制……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有啦！因為委員說是我定義的，其實不是我的定義的。"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽我講完！你聽我講完！什麼地區、中華民國領土到哪裡不是你定義，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，不是我定義。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個東西是有中華民國法律規定的，這個叫做領海及鄰接區法，這個不是你說了算，也不是我說了算，這是有法律的，請按照法律行事，你要處罰人民就要有法律依據。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：而且你剛剛一直說是走私，如果是走私，你就用走私去辦他，我完全不反對，問題是今天……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不同的犯行依不同的法律來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：對、對、對！所以你剛剛不要扯到走私，走私你一定要抓，我跟你講，你開到大陸地區……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是他同時也有兩岸人民關係條例的問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：是、是、是！來，兩岸人民關係條例，如果你認為這個區域內是我們，對不對？那條線裡面是我們，以外是他們，他們開到那邊去，如果他們走私，大陸也會抓啦！我跟你講，大陸也會抓，你不用擔心，大陸也很嚴格，也會抓。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，113年以後到現在只有9個案，我們不會……"],["陳委員玉珍：有一百多個案子！"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，那個是在COVID-19的時候，我們真的必須嚴格，因為要禁止接觸。"],["陳委員玉珍：這類案子為什麼會到我這裡陳情？就是因為已經有一百多個案子，而且……"],["管主任委員碧玲：而且也只有99個案……"],["陳委員玉珍：你說幾個？你再說一次……"],["管主任委員碧玲：在COVID-19的那個期間比較多，那個時候也只有99個案。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委，我這樣聽不到你說的，請問你說幾個案子？"],["管主任委員碧玲：總共就是99加9。"],["陳委員玉珍：99加9就是一百多個啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果我們的取締不對，主管機關不會裁罰，如果我們所做的依法……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這不是你們問題，你覺得這是主管機的問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：主管機關認為我們的依據不對，他們不會裁罰的……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我才說這個是法律問題！我也沒說你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們是替代執法的，主管機關在陸委會……"],["陳委員玉珍：你請你等一下，你在執行嘛，你在執行嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，我今天要特別請您跟部長上來，因為是國防部主管這個，我想請你們回去，你們回去告訴我……"],["管主任委員碧玲：主政在陸委會，兩岸人民關係條例在陸委會。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我的時間很少，我要跟你們探討這個問題，第一個，禁限制水域就是大陸地區跟臺灣地區的交界嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是金門跟馬祖，但是在其他的地方就不是這樣了，委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：你先聽我講完。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我要問院長，然後我要請你回答，因為這是整個問題，不是一個問題……"],["管主任委員碧玲：金門、馬祖是這個函釋……"],["陳委員玉珍：讓我把問題問完，好嗎？我會讓你回答，好嗎？我會讓你回答……"],["管主任委員碧玲：很多地方的限制水域外是我們的專經區。"],["陳委員玉珍：我會讓你用函本來回答我。第一個問題，這個大陸地區你說是函釋，請給我，我也歡迎你給我……"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們補給委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個沒問題，問題是這個大陸地區跟臺灣地區的分界是由一個函釋或者由一個部會來決定嗎？這是第一個問題，這是法律問題啦！第二個，如果有一個法律，當地的老百姓這麼多人不停的在違法，我不是說走私……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有，沒有很多，委員，沒有很多……"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽我講！一百多個，金門有多少漁民啊……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，沒有很多。"],["陳委員玉珍：一百多件案子還不多？"],["管主任委員碧玲：那個是在COVID-19的時候，我們真的必須要執法來避免接觸跟傳染……"],["陳委員玉珍：你聽我講，我今天會……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，但是在那之後，我們沒有對一般漁民造成擾民的現象，從統計的數字來看……"],["陳委員玉珍：我跟你講，你說沒有，到時候我請漁民來開會，你們也來開會，就知道有多少漁民在反映了。如果有這麼多人會違法，金門沒有那麼多漁民，卻有這麼多人違法，我們是不是要考慮到這個法律在適用上面發生了什麼問題，您了解嗎？法律也是要與時俱進嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們請主管機關回答委員這個問題好嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：你可以不要講話嗎？我請院長回答，好嗎？我要請院長回答，剩下沒有幾秒鐘。第一個，這個禁限制水域應該是限制大陸船不要來我們這裡，你現在怎麼限制臺灣地區的漁民不能出海捕魚呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：就因為有那一條啊……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不要回答！","主席，我一直不要他回答，但他一直回答，我是在跟院長講，你這樣是浪費我的時間。"],["主席：時間暫停，管主委，麻煩不要搶答。","陳委員，請繼續。"],["陳委員玉珍：讓我講完，我沒有要叫你現在回答，你不用一直爭辯，我也沒有說你做錯，好不好？"],["主席：陳委員，請繼續，時間繼續。"],["陳委員玉珍：研究法律嘛！因為今天的時間就是要給院長回答，你研究一下，這個法律是限制大陸人不要進來，不是限制我們的漁民不能出海去捕魚，魚游出這條線，他就不能抓……"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛有聽……"],["陳委員玉珍：第二個，如果有這麼多人一直違反這個法律，是不是在法律的適用或是解釋或是各方面應該要適當的改變呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛聽到委員說，如果我們出去的漁船也會被大陸逮捕嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：當然啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們要保護他啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：我們抓他叫做保護他嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就不讓他出去，這樣才……"],["陳委員玉珍：你把漁民抓回來叫做保護他？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊，如果是這個邏輯，我們可能也要保護他，我會來檢討，如果是這樣子，我覺得要保護他。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啦！你把答案給我，我要答案，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["主席：麻煩行政院把陳玉珍委員要求的資料送一下陳玉珍委員辦公室。","非常謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，本會期排定政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，再一次謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長、各位列席的閣員一起來列席答詢；也謝謝林倩綺委員一直陪伴著我們一起參與今天的總質詢。","11月4號（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行立法委員個人質詢之內政組質詢，現在休息。","休息（19時16分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":134,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["韓國瑜","許智傑","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李昆澤","王正旭","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","沈發惠","許宇甄","王世堅","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-31"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00008"}}}