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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 142.192, \"end\": 142.312, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"敢\", \"start\": 142.312, \"end\": 142.792, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 142.792, \"end\": 142.953, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 142.953, \"end\": 143.053, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 143.053, \"end\": 143.073, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 143.073, \"end\": 143.093, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 144.613, \"end\": 162.709, \"text\": \"明年應該可以看到飛機來飛返郊運所以至少剛剛部長提到的至少會有實駕明年就會來陸郊運嗎今年就已經完成會完成實駕的組裝那還有待測試的過程那在線的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 144.613, \"end\": 144.814, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 144.814, \"end\": 145.094, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 145.094, \"end\": 145.254, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 145.254, \"end\": 145.434, \"score\": 0.865}, 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\"個\"}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 171.82, \"end\": 172.0, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 172.0, \"end\": 172.32, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 172.32, \"end\": 172.761, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 172.761, \"end\": 172.901, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 172.901, \"end\": 173.542, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 173.542, \"end\": 173.722, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 173.722, \"end\": 174.463, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 174.463, \"end\": 174.563, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 174.563, \"end\": 174.663, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 174.663, \"end\": 174.783, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 174.783, \"end\": 175.164, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 175.164, \"end\": 175.304, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"end\": 800.792, \"score\": 0.445}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,849 --> 00:00:03,111\n謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是蘿薇部長早本席呢要延續陳俊宇委員剛剛有關於這個對美經構的這個議題那剛剛部長你有提到這個\n\n2\n00:00:23,337 --> 00:00:50,994\n這個F16VBlock軌道的這個戰機目前在線的有50架嘛原先我們這個66架的這個戰機應該是要在115年的時候要全數的這個非反隔可是剛剛有報告就是說因為就是產線搬遷要重啟這個產線還有供應鏈中斷等等因素所以造成整個的這個延盪那我有看到就是說在報告裡面有提到就是\n\n3\n00:00:51,534 --> 00:01:13,781\nAGM-154C飛彈其實它現在已經有一個大概有一個規劃的這個雖然是延期延檔可是還是有提出一個時程出來規劃目前是116年到117年全數會交運然後我看到MK-48重型魚雷也是一樣雖然是說我們是延檔的比原先的這個交期晚了可能要到4年\n\n4\n00:01:15,161 --> 00:01:37,370\n4年的時間才能夠全數的這個交運可是這個F16VBlock軌道動戰機一直都是國人非常注意跟在意的這個對美的這個軍購案因為66架到目前為止當然一架都沒有交付所以針對這個部分的話我們有一個確實的這個交期嗎因為部長剛剛說已經有50架在線上了\n\n5\n00:01:40,671 --> 00:01:59,037\n對我不敢跟委員說明說的是說你到底確定在什麼時候但是我們預期今年的年底應該實價會組裝完成然後要進行測試的飛行那測試飛行一旦過了之後如果順利的話我們就會獲得交機\n\n6\n00:02:00,103 --> 00:02:23,093\n那因為在線組裝也有50架所以我們會耿續來掌握這個相關的進度所以我們認為這個整個相關的問題已經在解決之後剩下來的就是組裝還有測試飛行的問題那當然最後是66架能不能在明年的年底之前全數完成我們不敢說但是我們應該在\n\n7\n00:02:24,613 --> 00:02:42,709\n明年應該可以看到飛機來飛返郊運所以至少剛剛部長提到的至少會有實駕明年就會來陸郊運嗎今年就已經完成會完成實駕的組裝那還有待測試的過程那在線的\n\n8\n00:02:43,710 --> 00:02:57,707\n連同這10架加起來總共有50架在線組裝所以我想我們要告訴國人就是說這個並不是一個完全沒有並不是沒有進度的狀態而是一個還在全數加\n\n9\n00:02:58,928 --> 00:03:19,288\n加班趕工的一個階段那用兩班之二十小時再進行那在線組裝的加起來應該要有五十架所以如果測試順利的話那我想我們明年就會看到EpsilonV的一個教育OK所以部長覺得說如果是順利的話大概明年就會完成這個教育\n\n10\n00:03:20,309 --> 00:03:47,654\n就是說66架有沒有辦法在明年全數完成交運我們覺得當然有一定的風險跟挑戰但明年一定可以看得到F-16B的交運這樣子OK好那這部分的話當然美方也可能要積極我剛剛看報告就是說他們其實也在加班趕工當中OK好那再來的話再來我要看我要跟部長討論的是有關也就是軍事工程延宕的這個部分\n\n11\n00:03:48,254 --> 00:04:04,997\n那像這個軍事博物館其實在去年第一個會期呢本期就曾經跟國防部關心過這個工程延宕之事那剛剛呢我們有看到國防部有提到就是落後的這個原因但他這落後的原因整個寫下來的話其實很多人看了其實也覺得說非常的\n\n12\n00:04:05,758 --> 00:04:17,046\n不能接受跟蠻瞎的一些內容比如說我們會遇到不良的廠商不良的廠商然後又提高又節約又重構那計劃的預算一開始就這部分就沒有規劃好計劃的預算不符市場的行情然後後來又不斷的追加這個預算我記得說一開始應該是17億到後來不斷的追加到52億那這當中還經歷了好幾次的變更設計等等\n\n13\n00:04:33,937 --> 00:04:59,223\n那本來是2023年要完工那現在我記得上個會期沈博洋委員曾經也都是安排了這個考察你說今年10月份會竣工那現在呢又要延到2026年我想請教一下這個軍事博物館到底什麼時候可以完工就是一延再延這個是不只是一波三折是好幾折請問一下這部分進行的狀況是如何那目前呢我們到底整個工程到底完成了多少請問\n\n14\n00:05:01,534 --> 00:05:22,902\n委員好我是政辦事主任沈立芳總長來跟整個案子來跟委員做一個說明有關軍博館這段實際上17到52這個中間經歷了非常長從103年一直到他真正簽約的這個時間經過非常長的一段時間那麼實際上他核定的最早開標核定工程款就是34億\n\n15\n00:05:24,462 --> 00:05:46,622\n在這個過程當中它本身的量體有很大的改變原本地上層跟地下層到現在整個的樓地板面積都大概增加了兩倍的一個狀況那麼最主要原因就是在當時在工程設計階段的時候考量到那個地段它本身是一個比較高價值地段是希望說這個量體不要太小\n\n16\n00:05:47,242 --> 00:06:13,294\n那麼免得讓它整個的這個不符合當地開發的一個價值所以整體的狀況在核定預算的時候它的預算的基準就是46億所以並沒有說從17億到52億那17億當初是怎麼來的呢一開始就說規劃的時候是17億你現在說是46億這部分可以解釋一下嗎因為大家現在都在說17億暴漲到52億這個部分能夠解釋一下怎麼回事嗎\n\n17\n00:06:14,897 --> 00:06:26,967\n17日是從最早最早在開始規劃在103年左右時間在開始規劃的時候一個最基準的一個數字那麼其後從103年一直到整個工程的這個實際簽約的這段時間經歷了它本身量體的倍增\n\n18\n00:06:31,710 --> 00:06:47,906\n大概幾乎兩倍的量體然後又經歷了新冠肺炎整整這段時間整個物價上漲等等這些關鍵的時間大概在109年的時候工程會有做了一個統一的調整就針對公共工程因為你不管是原物料人力\n\n19\n00:06:48,847 --> 00:07:11,790\n統統都做上檔了以後他把公共工程整體預算都做了一個調升指導所以在這種狀況之下我們真正簽約的時間核定的一個工程預算是46億那麼這是有關於主體工程的部分那另外我們用了大概有8億的預算這個是軍頭的預算主要是針對博物館除了主體工程以外\n\n20\n00:07:13,311 --> 00:07:40,123\n內裝裡面的不管是展出的東西或者是展期的規劃等等這些是規劃所以整個案子的狀況是這樣那目前進度來說大概是在72%左右比他計劃的這個進度略為超前我們還是緊迫的去管制這個案子就不管是包含設計端建造端還有專案管理端我們是業主從業主角度去督導這三方去強烈去合作\n\n21\n00:07:40,623 --> 00:08:05,170\n希望讓整個工程維持在這個按照它原本進度上來去執行我想請問一下當初我們在估算整個工程的這個我們要耗費多少工程的時候當初我們只是算到主體工程的部分其實後來我有發現有追加了一些其他的可能是內部的設計等等當初都沒有算在內嗎當初我們都沒有算在內嗎\n\n22\n00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:33,380\n它就是区分两段主体工程建造是用银改基金就是大概在整个案子当初设计的时候就这样那么里面内装包含它的展物的规划然后我们现在所成长的这些古物从当初军事博物馆然后移到现在来我们中间不管是保管还要做一些修复的工作这些都需要一些经费所以这个是另外用了八亿的军头的预算来去做维持\n\n23\n00:08:34,690 --> 00:08:49,941\n好那到底軍事博物館什麼時候能完工依照目前進度主體工程的部分我們計畫是在明年的5月完工主體建築那對外營運的部分呢對外營運概略的時間是在116年\n\n24\n00:08:52,894 --> 00:09:15,661\n116年,2027年才會開始營運因為這個部分,說實在的軍事博物館國人其實產生了很多的疑慮不管是它的營造的成本也好或者是說它延宕的過程、理由、原因其實都引起了很大的疑慮我想這部分還是要\n\n25\n00:09:17,021 --> 00:09:31,657\n我們國防部這邊多做解釋但因為我看你們的那個落後原因的這個分析真的是讓人家其實還蠻搖頭的我們居然會這麼大的一個一個公家的這個單位居然會遇到不良的廠商等等還要解約還要重構\n\n26\n00:09:32,758 --> 00:09:54,943\n這當中就花了應該蠻多的時間再來因為時間的關係我現在請教最近我們有看到網路上面有一個報導或是說流傳好了就是說我們國防部將針對士官免資的部分的制度進行改革本席的辦公室甚至也接到了電話就是說\n\n27\n00:09:56,323 --> 00:10:05,906\n也很擔心會擔心就是說往後是不是說這個制度改了下去之後呢是不是領不到這一個月退縫這個部分的話是不是說我想請國防部呢來做一個解釋因為假設啦假設是說\n\n28\n00:10:13,428 --> 00:10:38,937\n這事關是25歲的時候入伍的話如果你現在改為17就是17年他就必須要強制退伍的話那可是現行的這個法令是取得月退奉的資格是在45歲那我們有沒有到時如果要修改這個政策的話到時是怎麼樣來做對接也就是說強制退伍跟月退奉的這個資格我們要如何去做對接這是會做調整的嗎\n\n29\n00:10:39,890 --> 00:11:07,788\n我想跟委員報告第一點就是說這個都還在一個演繹的階段沒有形成一個政策這個還沒有報到我這邊來那第二個就是說他主要的部分應該是在您這個圖上有提到的是在那個分值分等就是說將這個士官長的這個分值分等上面再增加主要的重點應該是在上面因為大家都有看到就是說\n\n30\n00:11:09,109 --> 00:11:25,982\n就說營級以上或者旅級以上軍隊以上司令部以上的部分他事實上這些的如果沒有將他再多加幾個職等的話他會造成這個越往上走的士官長他拿到的薪水會比這個連級的士官長的薪水要來的\n\n31\n00:11:27,483 --> 00:11:53,835\n因為連級的士官長才拿得到戰鬥部隊的佳績營級以上就拿不到了所以你現在講的是新增軍階的那個部分是不是對所以重點是在這個部分那至於剛剛委員關心的所謂的中士下士的這個退伍的時間我想這個都還沒有任何的定案這個還有待在我們進一步的這個討論所以有關這個網路上傳說他沒有辦法領到退碰要如何然後就\n\n32\n00:11:55,195 --> 00:12:16,860\n有類似這樣的一個狀況我想這個都沒有形成一個政策的共識所以這部分的話可能就是我們目前是擺在就是說新增軍階的這個部分就是特等士官場的這部分其實重點其他行業的這個強制退伍的這個年限等等要提前這部分到目前為止是還沒有成行的\n\n33\n00:12:17,060 --> 00:12:31,397\n沒有成型當然往上走的這些特等的士官長我們當然也要討論但是他真正最大的重點是在將士官這個制度還是要做長留久用我想長留久用還是我們對士官制度的一個重點\n\n34\n00:12:32,014 --> 00:12:57,073\nOK那如果說前面這個部分比如說我剛才提到的就是中下市強制退股的部分其實也就是中下市的這個我們的弟兄有來聯絡有在講說這部分他們很擔心就是說到時如果說真的是17年的年限到了他們還不到45歲我如何取得這個葉新鳳的這部分我想就算是有進入到這部分的討論其實應該都會要做對接\n\n35\n00:12:59,635 --> 00:13:20,792\n對不對不會維持現在的這個制度嗎我想沒有到現在為止就我這邊來理解沒有17年就一定要強制退伍這樣的一個政策也不會往這方面來做規劃嗎因為這個部分都是他們在事關跟事關之間的一個研析所以後續要如何還要報到國安部這邊來我會再做一個審慎的研議OK好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n849\t3111\t謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長是 蘿薇部長早本席呢 要延續陳俊宇委員剛剛有關於這個對美經構的這個議題那剛剛部長你有提到這個\n23337\t50994\t這個F16V Block 軌道的這個戰機目前在線的有50架嘛原先我們這個66架的這個戰機應該是要在115年的時候要全數的這個非反隔可是剛剛有報告就是說因為就是產線搬遷要重啟這個產線還有供應鏈中斷等等因素所以造成整個的這個延盪那我有看到就是說在報告裡面有提到就是\n51534\t73781\tAGM-154C飛彈其實它現在已經有一個大概有一個規劃的這個雖然是延期延檔可是還是有提出一個時程出來規劃目前是116年到117年全數會交運然後我看到MK-48重型魚雷也是一樣雖然是說我們是延檔的比原先的這個交期晚了可能要到4年\n75161\t97370\t4年的時間才能夠全數的這個交運可是這個F16VBlock軌道動戰機一直都是國人非常注意跟在意的這個對美的這個軍購案因為66架到目前為止當然一架都沒有交付所以針對這個部分的話我們有一個確實的這個交期嗎因為部長剛剛說已經有50架在線上了\n100671\t119037\t對 我不敢跟委員說明說的是說你到底確定在什麼時候但是我們預期今年的年底應該實價會組裝完成然後要進行測試的飛行那測試飛行一旦過了之後如果順利的話我們就會獲得交機\n120103\t143093\t那因為在線組裝也有50架所以我們會耿續來掌握這個相關的進度所以我們認為這個整個相關的問題已經在解決之後剩下來的就是組裝還有測試飛行的問題那當然最後是66架能不能在明年的年底之前全數完成我們不敢說但是我們應該在\n144613\t162709\t明年應該可以看到飛機來飛返郊運所以至少剛剛部長提到的至少會有實駕明年就會來陸郊運嗎今年就已經完成會完成實駕的組裝那還有待測試的過程那在線的\n163710\t177707\t連同這10架加起來總共有50架在線組裝所以我想我們要告訴國人就是說這個並不是一個完全沒有並不是沒有進度的狀態而是一個還在全數加\n178928\t199288\t加班趕工的一個階段那用兩班之二十小時再進行那在線組裝的加起來應該要有五十架所以如果測試順利的話那我想我們明年就會看到Epsilon V的一個教育OK 所以部長覺得說如果是順利的話大概明年就會完成這個教育\n200309\t227654\t就是說66架有沒有辦法在明年全數完成交運我們覺得當然有一定的風險跟挑戰但明年一定可以看得到F-16B的交運這樣子OK好那這部分的話當然美方也可能要積極我剛剛看報告就是說他們其實也在加班趕工當中OK好那再來的話再來我要看我要跟部長討論的是有關也就是軍事工程延宕的這個部分\n228254\t244997\t那像這個軍事博物館其實在去年第一個會期呢本期就曾經跟國防部關心過這個工程延宕之事那剛剛呢我們有看到國防部有提到就是落後的這個原因但他這落後的原因整個寫下來的話其實很多人看了其實也覺得說非常的\n245758\t257046\t不能接受跟蠻瞎的一些內容比如說我們會遇到不良的廠商不良的廠商然後又提高又節約又重構那計劃的預算一開始就這部分就沒有規劃好計劃的預算不符市場的行情然後後來又不斷的追加這個預算我記得說一開始應該是17億到後來不斷的追加到52億那這當中還經歷了好幾次的變更設計等等\n273937\t299223\t那本來是2023年要完工那現在我記得上個會期沈博洋委員曾經也都是安排了這個考察你說今年10月份會竣工那現在呢又要延到2026年我想請教一下這個軍事博物館到底什麼時候可以完工就是一延再延這個是不只是一波三折是好幾折請問一下這部分進行的狀況是如何那目前呢我們到底整個工程到底完成了多少請問\n301534\t322902\t委員好 我是政辦事主任沈立芳總長來跟整個案子來跟委員做一個說明有關軍博館這段實際上17到52這個中間經歷了非常長從103年一直到他真正簽約的這個時間經過非常長的一段時間那麼實際上他核定的最早開標核定工程款就是34億\n324462\t346622\t在這個過程當中它本身的量體有很大的改變原本地上層跟地下層到現在整個的樓地板面積都大概增加了兩倍的一個狀況那麼最主要原因就是在當時在工程設計階段的時候考量到那個地段它本身是一個比較高價值地段是希望說這個量體不要太小\n347242\t373294\t那麼免得讓它整個的這個不符合當地開發的一個價值所以整體的狀況在核定預算的時候它的預算的基準就是46億所以並沒有說從17億到52億那17億當初是怎麼來的呢一開始就說規劃的時候是17億你現在說是46億這部分可以解釋一下嗎因為大家現在都在說17億暴漲到52億這個部分能夠解釋一下怎麼回事嗎\n374897\t386967\t17日是從最早最早在開始規劃在103年左右時間在開始規劃的時候一個最基準的一個數字那麼其後從103年一直到整個工程的這個實際簽約的這段時間經歷了它本身量體的倍增\n391710\t407906\t大概幾乎兩倍的量體然後又經歷了新冠肺炎整整這段時間整個物價上漲等等這些關鍵的時間大概在109年的時候工程會有做了一個統一的調整就針對公共工程因為你不管是原物料人力\n408847\t431790\t統統都做上檔了以後他把公共工程整體預算都做了一個調升指導所以在這種狀況之下我們真正簽約的時間核定的一個工程預算是46億那麼這是有關於主體工程的部分那另外我們用了大概有8億的預算這個是軍頭的預算主要是針對博物館除了主體工程以外\n433311\t460123\t內裝裡面的不管是展出的東西或者是展期的規劃等等這些是規劃所以整個案子的狀況是這樣那目前進度來說大概是在72%左右比他計劃的這個進度略為超前我們還是緊迫的去管制這個案子就不管是包含設計端建造端還有專案管理端我們是業主從業主角度去督導這三方去強烈去合作\n460623\t485170\t希望讓整個工程維持在這個按照它原本進度上來去執行我想請問一下當初我們在估算整個工程的這個我們要耗費多少工程的時候當初我們只是算到主體工程的部分其實後來我有發現有追加了一些其他的可能是內部的設計等等當初都沒有算在內嗎當初我們都沒有算在內嗎\n486790\t513380\t它就是区分两段主体工程建造是用银改基金就是大概在整个案子当初设计的时候就这样那么里面内装包含它的展物的规划然后我们现在所成长的这些古物从当初军事博物馆然后移到现在来我们中间不管是保管还要做一些修复的工作这些都需要一些经费所以这个是另外用了八亿的军头的预算来去做维持\n514690\t529941\t好 那到底軍事博物館什麼時候能完工依照目前進度主體工程的部分我們計畫是在明年的5月完工主體建築 那對外營運的部分呢對外營運概略的時間是在116年\n532894\t555661\t116年,2027年才會開始營運因為這個部分,說實在的軍事博物館國人其實產生了很多的疑慮不管是它的營造的成本也好或者是說它延宕的過程、理由、原因其實都引起了很大的疑慮我想這部分還是要\n557021\t571657\t我們國防部這邊多做解釋但因為我看你們的那個落後原因的這個分析真的是讓人家其實還蠻搖頭的我們居然會這麼大的一個一個公家的這個單位居然會遇到不良的廠商等等還要解約還要重構\n572758\t594943\t這當中就花了應該蠻多的時間再來因為時間的關係我現在請教最近我們有看到網路上面有一個報導或是說流傳好了就是說我們國防部將針對士官免資的部分的制度進行改革本席的辦公室甚至也接到了電話就是說\n596323\t605906\t也很擔心會擔心就是說往後是不是說這個制度改了下去之後呢是不是領不到這一個月退縫這個部分的話是不是說我想請國防部呢來做一個解釋因為假設啦假設是說\n613428\t638937\t這事關是25歲的時候入伍的話如果你現在改為17就是17年他就必須要強制退伍的話那可是現行的這個法令是取得月退奉的資格是在45歲那我們有沒有到時如果要修改這個政策的話到時是怎麼樣來做對接也就是說強制退伍跟月退奉的這個資格我們要如何去做對接這是會做調整的嗎\n639890\t667788\t我想跟委員報告第一點就是說這個都還在一個演繹的階段沒有形成一個政策這個還沒有報到我這邊來那第二個就是說他主要的部分應該是在您這個圖上有提到的是在那個分值分等就是說將這個士官長的這個分值分等上面再增加主要的重點應該是在上面因為大家都有看到就是說\n669109\t685982\t就說營級以上或者旅級以上軍隊以上司令部以上的部分他事實上這些的如果沒有將他再多加幾個職等的話他會造成這個越往上走的士官長他拿到的薪水會比這個連級的士官長的薪水要來的\n687483\t713835\t因為連級的士官長才拿得到戰鬥部隊的佳績 營級以上就拿不到了所以你現在講的是新增軍階的那個部分是不是對 所以重點是在這個部分那至於剛剛委員關心的所謂的中士 下士的這個退伍的時間我想這個都還沒有任何的定案這個還有待在我們進一步的這個討論所以有關這個網路上傳說他沒有辦法領到退碰 要如何然後就\n715195\t736860\t有類似這樣的一個狀況我想這個都沒有形成一個政策的共識所以這部分的話可能就是我們目前是擺在就是說新增軍階的這個部分就是特等士官場的這部分其實重點其他行業的這個強制退伍的這個年限等等要提前這部分到目前為止是還沒有成行的\n737060\t751397\t沒有成型當然往上走的這些特等的士官長我們當然也要討論但是他真正最大的重點是在將士官這個制度還是要做長留久用我想長留久用還是我們對士官制度的一個重點\n752014\t777073\tOK那如果說前面這個部分比如說我剛才提到的就是中下市強制退股的部分其實也就是中下市的這個我們的弟兄有來聯絡有在講說這部分他們很擔心就是說到時如果說真的是17年的年限到了他們還不到45歲我如何取得這個葉新鳳的這部分我想就算是有進入到這部分的討論其實應該都會要做對接\n779635\t800792\t對不對 不會維持現在的這個制度嗎我想沒有到現在為止就我這邊來理解沒有17年就一定要強制退伍這樣的一個政策也不會往這方面來做規劃嗎因為這個部分都是他們在事關跟事關之間的一個研析所以後續要如何還要報到國安部這邊來我會再做一個審慎的研議OK 好 以上謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長是 蘿薇部長早本席呢 要延續陳俊宇委員剛剛有關於這個對美經構的這個議題那剛剛部長你有提到這個\n這個F16V Block 軌道的這個戰機目前在線的有50架嘛原先我們這個66架的這個戰機應該是要在115年的時候要全數的這個非反隔可是剛剛有報告就是說因為就是產線搬遷要重啟這個產線還有供應鏈中斷等等因素所以造成整個的這個延盪那我有看到就是說在報告裡面有提到就是\nAGM-154C飛彈其實它現在已經有一個大概有一個規劃的這個雖然是延期延檔可是還是有提出一個時程出來規劃目前是116年到117年全數會交運然後我看到MK-48重型魚雷也是一樣雖然是說我們是延檔的比原先的這個交期晚了可能要到4年\n4年的時間才能夠全數的這個交運可是這個F16VBlock軌道動戰機一直都是國人非常注意跟在意的這個對美的這個軍購案因為66架到目前為止當然一架都沒有交付所以針對這個部分的話我們有一個確實的這個交期嗎因為部長剛剛說已經有50架在線上了\n對 我不敢跟委員說明說的是說你到底確定在什麼時候但是我們預期今年的年底應該實價會組裝完成然後要進行測試的飛行那測試飛行一旦過了之後如果順利的話我們就會獲得交機\n那因為在線組裝也有50架所以我們會耿續來掌握這個相關的進度所以我們認為這個整個相關的問題已經在解決之後剩下來的就是組裝還有測試飛行的問題那當然最後是66架能不能在明年的年底之前全數完成我們不敢說但是我們應該在\n明年應該可以看到飛機來飛返郊運所以至少剛剛部長提到的至少會有實駕明年就會來陸郊運嗎今年就已經完成會完成實駕的組裝那還有待測試的過程那在線的\n連同這10架加起來總共有50架在線組裝所以我想我們要告訴國人就是說這個並不是一個完全沒有並不是沒有進度的狀態而是一個還在全數加\n加班趕工的一個階段那用兩班之二十小時再進行那在線組裝的加起來應該要有五十架所以如果測試順利的話那我想我們明年就會看到Epsilon V的一個教育OK 所以部長覺得說如果是順利的話大概明年就會完成這個教育\n就是說66架有沒有辦法在明年全數完成交運我們覺得當然有一定的風險跟挑戰但明年一定可以看得到F-16B的交運這樣子OK好那這部分的話當然美方也可能要積極我剛剛看報告就是說他們其實也在加班趕工當中OK好那再來的話再來我要看我要跟部長討論的是有關也就是軍事工程延宕的這個部分\n那像這個軍事博物館其實在去年第一個會期呢本期就曾經跟國防部關心過這個工程延宕之事那剛剛呢我們有看到國防部有提到就是落後的這個原因但他這落後的原因整個寫下來的話其實很多人看了其實也覺得說非常的\n不能接受跟蠻瞎的一些內容比如說我們會遇到不良的廠商不良的廠商然後又提高又節約又重構那計劃的預算一開始就這部分就沒有規劃好計劃的預算不符市場的行情然後後來又不斷的追加這個預算我記得說一開始應該是17億到後來不斷的追加到52億那這當中還經歷了好幾次的變更設計等等\n那本來是2023年要完工那現在我記得上個會期沈博洋委員曾經也都是安排了這個考察你說今年10月份會竣工那現在呢又要延到2026年我想請教一下這個軍事博物館到底什麼時候可以完工就是一延再延這個是不只是一波三折是好幾折請問一下這部分進行的狀況是如何那目前呢我們到底整個工程到底完成了多少請問\n委員好 我是政辦事主任沈立芳總長來跟整個案子來跟委員做一個說明有關軍博館這段實際上17到52這個中間經歷了非常長從103年一直到他真正簽約的這個時間經過非常長的一段時間那麼實際上他核定的最早開標核定工程款就是34億\n在這個過程當中它本身的量體有很大的改變原本地上層跟地下層到現在整個的樓地板面積都大概增加了兩倍的一個狀況那麼最主要原因就是在當時在工程設計階段的時候考量到那個地段它本身是一個比較高價值地段是希望說這個量體不要太小\n那麼免得讓它整個的這個不符合當地開發的一個價值所以整體的狀況在核定預算的時候它的預算的基準就是46億所以並沒有說從17億到52億那17億當初是怎麼來的呢一開始就說規劃的時候是17億你現在說是46億這部分可以解釋一下嗎因為大家現在都在說17億暴漲到52億這個部分能夠解釋一下怎麼回事嗎\n17日是從最早最早在開始規劃在103年左右時間在開始規劃的時候一個最基準的一個數字那麼其後從103年一直到整個工程的這個實際簽約的這段時間經歷了它本身量體的倍增\n大概幾乎兩倍的量體然後又經歷了新冠肺炎整整這段時間整個物價上漲等等這些關鍵的時間大概在109年的時候工程會有做了一個統一的調整就針對公共工程因為你不管是原物料人力\n統統都做上檔了以後他把公共工程整體預算都做了一個調升指導所以在這種狀況之下我們真正簽約的時間核定的一個工程預算是46億那麼這是有關於主體工程的部分那另外我們用了大概有8億的預算這個是軍頭的預算主要是針對博物館除了主體工程以外\n內裝裡面的不管是展出的東西或者是展期的規劃等等這些是規劃所以整個案子的狀況是這樣那目前進度來說大概是在72%左右比他計劃的這個進度略為超前我們還是緊迫的去管制這個案子就不管是包含設計端建造端還有專案管理端我們是業主從業主角度去督導這三方去強烈去合作\n希望讓整個工程維持在這個按照它原本進度上來去執行我想請問一下當初我們在估算整個工程的這個我們要耗費多少工程的時候當初我們只是算到主體工程的部分其實後來我有發現有追加了一些其他的可能是內部的設計等等當初都沒有算在內嗎當初我們都沒有算在內嗎\n它就是区分两段主体工程建造是用银改基金就是大概在整个案子当初设计的时候就这样那么里面内装包含它的展物的规划然后我们现在所成长的这些古物从当初军事博物馆然后移到现在来我们中间不管是保管还要做一些修复的工作这些都需要一些经费所以这个是另外用了八亿的军头的预算来去做维持\n好 那到底軍事博物館什麼時候能完工依照目前進度主體工程的部分我們計畫是在明年的5月完工主體建築 那對外營運的部分呢對外營運概略的時間是在116年\n116年,2027年才會開始營運因為這個部分,說實在的軍事博物館國人其實產生了很多的疑慮不管是它的營造的成本也好或者是說它延宕的過程、理由、原因其實都引起了很大的疑慮我想這部分還是要\n我們國防部這邊多做解釋但因為我看你們的那個落後原因的這個分析真的是讓人家其實還蠻搖頭的我們居然會這麼大的一個一個公家的這個單位居然會遇到不良的廠商等等還要解約還要重構\n這當中就花了應該蠻多的時間再來因為時間的關係我現在請教最近我們有看到網路上面有一個報導或是說流傳好了就是說我們國防部將針對士官免資的部分的制度進行改革本席的辦公室甚至也接到了電話就是說\n也很擔心會擔心就是說往後是不是說這個制度改了下去之後呢是不是領不到這一個月退縫這個部分的話是不是說我想請國防部呢來做一個解釋因為假設啦假設是說\n這事關是25歲的時候入伍的話如果你現在改為17就是17年他就必須要強制退伍的話那可是現行的這個法令是取得月退奉的資格是在45歲那我們有沒有到時如果要修改這個政策的話到時是怎麼樣來做對接也就是說強制退伍跟月退奉的這個資格我們要如何去做對接這是會做調整的嗎\n我想跟委員報告第一點就是說這個都還在一個演繹的階段沒有形成一個政策這個還沒有報到我這邊來那第二個就是說他主要的部分應該是在您這個圖上有提到的是在那個分值分等就是說將這個士官長的這個分值分等上面再增加主要的重點應該是在上面因為大家都有看到就是說\n就說營級以上或者旅級以上軍隊以上司令部以上的部分他事實上這些的如果沒有將他再多加幾個職等的話他會造成這個越往上走的士官長他拿到的薪水會比這個連級的士官長的薪水要來的\n因為連級的士官長才拿得到戰鬥部隊的佳績 營級以上就拿不到了所以你現在講的是新增軍階的那個部分是不是對 所以重點是在這個部分那至於剛剛委員關心的所謂的中士 下士的這個退伍的時間我想這個都還沒有任何的定案這個還有待在我們進一步的這個討論所以有關這個網路上傳說他沒有辦法領到退碰 要如何然後就\n有類似這樣的一個狀況我想這個都沒有形成一個政策的共識所以這部分的話可能就是我們目前是擺在就是說新增軍階的這個部分就是特等士官場的這部分其實重點其他行業的這個強制退伍的這個年限等等要提前這部分到目前為止是還沒有成行的\n沒有成型當然往上走的這些特等的士官長我們當然也要討論但是他真正最大的重點是在將士官這個制度還是要做長留久用我想長留久用還是我們對士官制度的一個重點\nOK那如果說前面這個部分比如說我剛才提到的就是中下市強制退股的部分其實也就是中下市的這個我們的弟兄有來聯絡有在講說這部分他們很擔心就是說到時如果說真的是17年的年限到了他們還不到45歲我如何取得這個葉新鳳的這部分我想就算是有進入到這部分的討論其實應該都會要做對接\n對不對 不會維持現在的這個制度嗎我想沒有到現在為止就我這邊來理解沒有17年就一定要強制退伍這樣的一個政策也不會往這方面來做規劃嗎因為這個部分都是他們在事關跟事關之間的一個研析所以後續要如何還要報到國安部這邊來我會再做一個審慎的研議OK 好 以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.849 --> 00:03.111\n謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長是蘿薇部長早本席呢要延續陳俊宇委員剛剛有關於這個對美經構的這個議題那剛剛部長你有提到這個\n\n00:23.337 --> 00:50.994\n這個F16VBlock軌道的這個戰機目前在線的有50架嘛原先我們這個66架的這個戰機應該是要在115年的時候要全數的這個非反隔可是剛剛有報告就是說因為就是產線搬遷要重啟這個產線還有供應鏈中斷等等因素所以造成整個的這個延盪那我有看到就是說在報告裡面有提到就是\n\n00:51.534 --> 01:13.781\nAGM-154C飛彈其實它現在已經有一個大概有一個規劃的這個雖然是延期延檔可是還是有提出一個時程出來規劃目前是116年到117年全數會交運然後我看到MK-48重型魚雷也是一樣雖然是說我們是延檔的比原先的這個交期晚了可能要到4年\n\n01:15.161 --> 01:37.370\n4年的時間才能夠全數的這個交運可是這個F16VBlock軌道動戰機一直都是國人非常注意跟在意的這個對美的這個軍購案因為66架到目前為止當然一架都沒有交付所以針對這個部分的話我們有一個確實的這個交期嗎因為部長剛剛說已經有50架在線上了\n\n01:40.671 --> 01:59.037\n對我不敢跟委員說明說的是說你到底確定在什麼時候但是我們預期今年的年底應該實價會組裝完成然後要進行測試的飛行那測試飛行一旦過了之後如果順利的話我們就會獲得交機\n\n02:00.103 --> 02:23.093\n那因為在線組裝也有50架所以我們會耿續來掌握這個相關的進度所以我們認為這個整個相關的問題已經在解決之後剩下來的就是組裝還有測試飛行的問題那當然最後是66架能不能在明年的年底之前全數完成我們不敢說但是我們應該在\n\n02:24.613 --> 02:42.709\n明年應該可以看到飛機來飛返郊運所以至少剛剛部長提到的至少會有實駕明年就會來陸郊運嗎今年就已經完成會完成實駕的組裝那還有待測試的過程那在線的\n\n02:43.710 --> 02:57.707\n連同這10架加起來總共有50架在線組裝所以我想我們要告訴國人就是說這個並不是一個完全沒有並不是沒有進度的狀態而是一個還在全數加\n\n02:58.928 --> 03:19.288\n加班趕工的一個階段那用兩班之二十小時再進行那在線組裝的加起來應該要有五十架所以如果測試順利的話那我想我們明年就會看到EpsilonV的一個教育OK所以部長覺得說如果是順利的話大概明年就會完成這個教育\n\n03:20.309 --> 03:47.654\n就是說66架有沒有辦法在明年全數完成交運我們覺得當然有一定的風險跟挑戰但明年一定可以看得到F-16B的交運這樣子OK好那這部分的話當然美方也可能要積極我剛剛看報告就是說他們其實也在加班趕工當中OK好那再來的話再來我要看我要跟部長討論的是有關也就是軍事工程延宕的這個部分\n\n03:48.254 --> 04:04.997\n那像這個軍事博物館其實在去年第一個會期呢本期就曾經跟國防部關心過這個工程延宕之事那剛剛呢我們有看到國防部有提到就是落後的這個原因但他這落後的原因整個寫下來的話其實很多人看了其實也覺得說非常的\n\n04:05.758 --> 04:17.046\n不能接受跟蠻瞎的一些內容比如說我們會遇到不良的廠商不良的廠商然後又提高又節約又重構那計劃的預算一開始就這部分就沒有規劃好計劃的預算不符市場的行情然後後來又不斷的追加這個預算我記得說一開始應該是17億到後來不斷的追加到52億那這當中還經歷了好幾次的變更設計等等\n\n04:33.937 --> 04:59.223\n那本來是2023年要完工那現在我記得上個會期沈博洋委員曾經也都是安排了這個考察你說今年10月份會竣工那現在呢又要延到2026年我想請教一下這個軍事博物館到底什麼時候可以完工就是一延再延這個是不只是一波三折是好幾折請問一下這部分進行的狀況是如何那目前呢我們到底整個工程到底完成了多少請問\n\n05:01.534 --> 05:22.902\n委員好我是政辦事主任沈立芳總長來跟整個案子來跟委員做一個說明有關軍博館這段實際上17到52這個中間經歷了非常長從103年一直到他真正簽約的這個時間經過非常長的一段時間那麼實際上他核定的最早開標核定工程款就是34億\n\n05:24.462 --> 05:46.622\n在這個過程當中它本身的量體有很大的改變原本地上層跟地下層到現在整個的樓地板面積都大概增加了兩倍的一個狀況那麼最主要原因就是在當時在工程設計階段的時候考量到那個地段它本身是一個比較高價值地段是希望說這個量體不要太小\n\n05:47.242 --> 06:13.294\n那麼免得讓它整個的這個不符合當地開發的一個價值所以整體的狀況在核定預算的時候它的預算的基準就是46億所以並沒有說從17億到52億那17億當初是怎麼來的呢一開始就說規劃的時候是17億你現在說是46億這部分可以解釋一下嗎因為大家現在都在說17億暴漲到52億這個部分能夠解釋一下怎麼回事嗎\n\n06:14.897 --> 06:26.967\n17日是從最早最早在開始規劃在103年左右時間在開始規劃的時候一個最基準的一個數字那麼其後從103年一直到整個工程的這個實際簽約的這段時間經歷了它本身量體的倍增\n\n06:31.710 --> 06:47.906\n大概幾乎兩倍的量體然後又經歷了新冠肺炎整整這段時間整個物價上漲等等這些關鍵的時間大概在109年的時候工程會有做了一個統一的調整就針對公共工程因為你不管是原物料人力\n\n06:48.847 --> 07:11.790\n統統都做上檔了以後他把公共工程整體預算都做了一個調升指導所以在這種狀況之下我們真正簽約的時間核定的一個工程預算是46億那麼這是有關於主體工程的部分那另外我們用了大概有8億的預算這個是軍頭的預算主要是針對博物館除了主體工程以外\n\n07:13.311 --> 07:40.123\n內裝裡面的不管是展出的東西或者是展期的規劃等等這些是規劃所以整個案子的狀況是這樣那目前進度來說大概是在72%左右比他計劃的這個進度略為超前我們還是緊迫的去管制這個案子就不管是包含設計端建造端還有專案管理端我們是業主從業主角度去督導這三方去強烈去合作\n\n07:40.623 --> 08:05.170\n希望讓整個工程維持在這個按照它原本進度上來去執行我想請問一下當初我們在估算整個工程的這個我們要耗費多少工程的時候當初我們只是算到主體工程的部分其實後來我有發現有追加了一些其他的可能是內部的設計等等當初都沒有算在內嗎當初我們都沒有算在內嗎\n\n08:06.790 --> 08:33.380\n它就是区分两段主体工程建造是用银改基金就是大概在整个案子当初设计的时候就这样那么里面内装包含它的展物的规划然后我们现在所成长的这些古物从当初军事博物馆然后移到现在来我们中间不管是保管还要做一些修复的工作这些都需要一些经费所以这个是另外用了八亿的军头的预算来去做维持\n\n08:34.690 --> 08:49.941\n好那到底軍事博物館什麼時候能完工依照目前進度主體工程的部分我們計畫是在明年的5月完工主體建築那對外營運的部分呢對外營運概略的時間是在116年\n\n08:52.894 --> 09:15.661\n116年,2027年才會開始營運因為這個部分,說實在的軍事博物館國人其實產生了很多的疑慮不管是它的營造的成本也好或者是說它延宕的過程、理由、原因其實都引起了很大的疑慮我想這部分還是要\n\n09:17.021 --> 09:31.657\n我們國防部這邊多做解釋但因為我看你們的那個落後原因的這個分析真的是讓人家其實還蠻搖頭的我們居然會這麼大的一個一個公家的這個單位居然會遇到不良的廠商等等還要解約還要重構\n\n09:32.758 --> 09:54.943\n這當中就花了應該蠻多的時間再來因為時間的關係我現在請教最近我們有看到網路上面有一個報導或是說流傳好了就是說我們國防部將針對士官免資的部分的制度進行改革本席的辦公室甚至也接到了電話就是說\n\n09:56.323 --> 10:05.906\n也很擔心會擔心就是說往後是不是說這個制度改了下去之後呢是不是領不到這一個月退縫這個部分的話是不是說我想請國防部呢來做一個解釋因為假設啦假設是說\n\n10:13.428 --> 10:38.937\n這事關是25歲的時候入伍的話如果你現在改為17就是17年他就必須要強制退伍的話那可是現行的這個法令是取得月退奉的資格是在45歲那我們有沒有到時如果要修改這個政策的話到時是怎麼樣來做對接也就是說強制退伍跟月退奉的這個資格我們要如何去做對接這是會做調整的嗎\n\n10:39.890 --> 11:07.788\n我想跟委員報告第一點就是說這個都還在一個演繹的階段沒有形成一個政策這個還沒有報到我這邊來那第二個就是說他主要的部分應該是在您這個圖上有提到的是在那個分值分等就是說將這個士官長的這個分值分等上面再增加主要的重點應該是在上面因為大家都有看到就是說\n\n11:09.109 --> 11:25.982\n就說營級以上或者旅級以上軍隊以上司令部以上的部分他事實上這些的如果沒有將他再多加幾個職等的話他會造成這個越往上走的士官長他拿到的薪水會比這個連級的士官長的薪水要來的\n\n11:27.483 --> 11:53.835\n因為連級的士官長才拿得到戰鬥部隊的佳績營級以上就拿不到了所以你現在講的是新增軍階的那個部分是不是對所以重點是在這個部分那至於剛剛委員關心的所謂的中士下士的這個退伍的時間我想這個都還沒有任何的定案這個還有待在我們進一步的這個討論所以有關這個網路上傳說他沒有辦法領到退碰要如何然後就\n\n11:55.195 --> 12:16.860\n有類似這樣的一個狀況我想這個都沒有形成一個政策的共識所以這部分的話可能就是我們目前是擺在就是說新增軍階的這個部分就是特等士官場的這部分其實重點其他行業的這個強制退伍的這個年限等等要提前這部分到目前為止是還沒有成行的\n\n12:17.060 --> 12:31.397\n沒有成型當然往上走的這些特等的士官長我們當然也要討論但是他真正最大的重點是在將士官這個制度還是要做長留久用我想長留久用還是我們對士官制度的一個重點\n\n12:32.014 --> 12:57.073\nOK那如果說前面這個部分比如說我剛才提到的就是中下市強制退股的部分其實也就是中下市的這個我們的弟兄有來聯絡有在講說這部分他們很擔心就是說到時如果說真的是17年的年限到了他們還不到45歲我如何取得這個葉新鳳的這部分我想就算是有進入到這部分的討論其實應該都會要做對接\n\n12:59.635 --> 13:20.792\n對不對不會維持現在的這個制度嗎我想沒有到現在為止就我這邊來理解沒有17年就一定要強制退伍這樣的一個政策也不會往這方面來做規劃嗎因為這個部分都是他們在事關跟事關之間的一個研析所以後續要如何還要報到國安部這邊來我會再做一個審慎的研議OK好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.849,"end":3.111,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長請顧部長是 蘿薇部長早本席呢 要延續陳俊宇委員剛剛有關於這個對美經構的這個議題那剛剛部長你有提到這個"},{"start":23.337,"end":50.994,"text":"這個F16V Block 軌道的這個戰機目前在線的有50架嘛原先我們這個66架的這個戰機應該是要在115年的時候要全數的這個非反隔可是剛剛有報告就是說因為就是產線搬遷要重啟這個產線還有供應鏈中斷等等因素所以造成整個的這個延盪那我有看到就是說在報告裡面有提到就是"},{"start":51.534,"end":73.781,"text":"AGM-154C飛彈其實它現在已經有一個大概有一個規劃的這個雖然是延期延檔可是還是有提出一個時程出來規劃目前是116年到117年全數會交運然後我看到MK-48重型魚雷也是一樣雖然是說我們是延檔的比原先的這個交期晚了可能要到4年"},{"start":75.161,"end":97.37,"text":"4年的時間才能夠全數的這個交運可是這個F16VBlock軌道動戰機一直都是國人非常注意跟在意的這個對美的這個軍購案因為66架到目前為止當然一架都沒有交付所以針對這個部分的話我們有一個確實的這個交期嗎因為部長剛剛說已經有50架在線上了"},{"start":100.671,"end":119.037,"text":"對 我不敢跟委員說明說的是說你到底確定在什麼時候但是我們預期今年的年底應該實價會組裝完成然後要進行測試的飛行那測試飛行一旦過了之後如果順利的話我們就會獲得交機"},{"start":120.103,"end":143.093,"text":"那因為在線組裝也有50架所以我們會耿續來掌握這個相關的進度所以我們認為這個整個相關的問題已經在解決之後剩下來的就是組裝還有測試飛行的問題那當然最後是66架能不能在明年的年底之前全數完成我們不敢說但是我們應該在"},{"start":144.613,"end":162.709,"text":"明年應該可以看到飛機來飛返郊運所以至少剛剛部長提到的至少會有實駕明年就會來陸郊運嗎今年就已經完成會完成實駕的組裝那還有待測試的過程那在線的"},{"start":163.71,"end":177.707,"text":"連同這10架加起來總共有50架在線組裝所以我想我們要告訴國人就是說這個並不是一個完全沒有並不是沒有進度的狀態而是一個還在全數加"},{"start":178.928,"end":199.288,"text":"加班趕工的一個階段那用兩班之二十小時再進行那在線組裝的加起來應該要有五十架所以如果測試順利的話那我想我們明年就會看到Epsilon V的一個教育OK 所以部長覺得說如果是順利的話大概明年就會完成這個教育"},{"start":200.309,"end":227.654,"text":"就是說66架有沒有辦法在明年全數完成交運我們覺得當然有一定的風險跟挑戰但明年一定可以看得到F-16B的交運這樣子OK好那這部分的話當然美方也可能要積極我剛剛看報告就是說他們其實也在加班趕工當中OK好那再來的話再來我要看我要跟部長討論的是有關也就是軍事工程延宕的這個部分"},{"start":228.254,"end":244.997,"text":"那像這個軍事博物館其實在去年第一個會期呢本期就曾經跟國防部關心過這個工程延宕之事那剛剛呢我們有看到國防部有提到就是落後的這個原因但他這落後的原因整個寫下來的話其實很多人看了其實也覺得說非常的"},{"start":245.758,"end":257.046,"text":"不能接受跟蠻瞎的一些內容比如說我們會遇到不良的廠商不良的廠商然後又提高又節約又重構那計劃的預算一開始就這部分就沒有規劃好計劃的預算不符市場的行情然後後來又不斷的追加這個預算我記得說一開始應該是17億到後來不斷的追加到52億那這當中還經歷了好幾次的變更設計等等"},{"start":273.937,"end":299.223,"text":"那本來是2023年要完工那現在我記得上個會期沈博洋委員曾經也都是安排了這個考察你說今年10月份會竣工那現在呢又要延到2026年我想請教一下這個軍事博物館到底什麼時候可以完工就是一延再延這個是不只是一波三折是好幾折請問一下這部分進行的狀況是如何那目前呢我們到底整個工程到底完成了多少請問"},{"start":301.534,"end":322.902,"text":"委員好 我是政辦事主任沈立芳總長來跟整個案子來跟委員做一個說明有關軍博館這段實際上17到52這個中間經歷了非常長從103年一直到他真正簽約的這個時間經過非常長的一段時間那麼實際上他核定的最早開標核定工程款就是34億"},{"start":324.462,"end":346.622,"text":"在這個過程當中它本身的量體有很大的改變原本地上層跟地下層到現在整個的樓地板面積都大概增加了兩倍的一個狀況那麼最主要原因就是在當時在工程設計階段的時候考量到那個地段它本身是一個比較高價值地段是希望說這個量體不要太小"},{"start":347.242,"end":373.294,"text":"那麼免得讓它整個的這個不符合當地開發的一個價值所以整體的狀況在核定預算的時候它的預算的基準就是46億所以並沒有說從17億到52億那17億當初是怎麼來的呢一開始就說規劃的時候是17億你現在說是46億這部分可以解釋一下嗎因為大家現在都在說17億暴漲到52億這個部分能夠解釋一下怎麼回事嗎"},{"start":374.897,"end":386.967,"text":"17日是從最早最早在開始規劃在103年左右時間在開始規劃的時候一個最基準的一個數字那麼其後從103年一直到整個工程的這個實際簽約的這段時間經歷了它本身量體的倍增"},{"start":391.71,"end":407.906,"text":"大概幾乎兩倍的量體然後又經歷了新冠肺炎整整這段時間整個物價上漲等等這些關鍵的時間大概在109年的時候工程會有做了一個統一的調整就針對公共工程因為你不管是原物料人力"},{"start":408.847,"end":431.79,"text":"統統都做上檔了以後他把公共工程整體預算都做了一個調升指導所以在這種狀況之下我們真正簽約的時間核定的一個工程預算是46億那麼這是有關於主體工程的部分那另外我們用了大概有8億的預算這個是軍頭的預算主要是針對博物館除了主體工程以外"},{"start":433.311,"end":460.123,"text":"內裝裡面的不管是展出的東西或者是展期的規劃等等這些是規劃所以整個案子的狀況是這樣那目前進度來說大概是在72%左右比他計劃的這個進度略為超前我們還是緊迫的去管制這個案子就不管是包含設計端建造端還有專案管理端我們是業主從業主角度去督導這三方去強烈去合作"},{"start":460.623,"end":485.17,"text":"希望讓整個工程維持在這個按照它原本進度上來去執行我想請問一下當初我們在估算整個工程的這個我們要耗費多少工程的時候當初我們只是算到主體工程的部分其實後來我有發現有追加了一些其他的可能是內部的設計等等當初都沒有算在內嗎當初我們都沒有算在內嗎"},{"start":486.79,"end":513.38,"text":"它就是区分两段主体工程建造是用银改基金就是大概在整个案子当初设计的时候就这样那么里面内装包含它的展物的规划然后我们现在所成长的这些古物从当初军事博物馆然后移到现在来我们中间不管是保管还要做一些修复的工作这些都需要一些经费所以这个是另外用了八亿的军头的预算来去做维持"},{"start":514.69,"end":529.941,"text":"好 那到底軍事博物館什麼時候能完工依照目前進度主體工程的部分我們計畫是在明年的5月完工主體建築 那對外營運的部分呢對外營運概略的時間是在116年"},{"start":532.894,"end":555.661,"text":"116年,2027年才會開始營運因為這個部分,說實在的軍事博物館國人其實產生了很多的疑慮不管是它的營造的成本也好或者是說它延宕的過程、理由、原因其實都引起了很大的疑慮我想這部分還是要"},{"start":557.021,"end":571.657,"text":"我們國防部這邊多做解釋但因為我看你們的那個落後原因的這個分析真的是讓人家其實還蠻搖頭的我們居然會這麼大的一個一個公家的這個單位居然會遇到不良的廠商等等還要解約還要重構"},{"start":572.758,"end":594.943,"text":"這當中就花了應該蠻多的時間再來因為時間的關係我現在請教最近我們有看到網路上面有一個報導或是說流傳好了就是說我們國防部將針對士官免資的部分的制度進行改革本席的辦公室甚至也接到了電話就是說"},{"start":596.323,"end":605.906,"text":"也很擔心會擔心就是說往後是不是說這個制度改了下去之後呢是不是領不到這一個月退縫這個部分的話是不是說我想請國防部呢來做一個解釋因為假設啦假設是說"},{"start":613.428,"end":638.937,"text":"這事關是25歲的時候入伍的話如果你現在改為17就是17年他就必須要強制退伍的話那可是現行的這個法令是取得月退奉的資格是在45歲那我們有沒有到時如果要修改這個政策的話到時是怎麼樣來做對接也就是說強制退伍跟月退奉的這個資格我們要如何去做對接這是會做調整的嗎"},{"start":639.89,"end":667.788,"text":"我想跟委員報告第一點就是說這個都還在一個演繹的階段沒有形成一個政策這個還沒有報到我這邊來那第二個就是說他主要的部分應該是在您這個圖上有提到的是在那個分值分等就是說將這個士官長的這個分值分等上面再增加主要的重點應該是在上面因為大家都有看到就是說"},{"start":669.109,"end":685.982,"text":"就說營級以上或者旅級以上軍隊以上司令部以上的部分他事實上這些的如果沒有將他再多加幾個職等的話他會造成這個越往上走的士官長他拿到的薪水會比這個連級的士官長的薪水要來的"},{"start":687.483,"end":713.835,"text":"因為連級的士官長才拿得到戰鬥部隊的佳績 營級以上就拿不到了所以你現在講的是新增軍階的那個部分是不是對 所以重點是在這個部分那至於剛剛委員關心的所謂的中士 下士的這個退伍的時間我想這個都還沒有任何的定案這個還有待在我們進一步的這個討論所以有關這個網路上傳說他沒有辦法領到退碰 要如何然後就"},{"start":715.195,"end":736.86,"text":"有類似這樣的一個狀況我想這個都沒有形成一個政策的共識所以這部分的話可能就是我們目前是擺在就是說新增軍階的這個部分就是特等士官場的這部分其實重點其他行業的這個強制退伍的這個年限等等要提前這部分到目前為止是還沒有成行的"},{"start":737.06,"end":751.397,"text":"沒有成型當然往上走的這些特等的士官長我們當然也要討論但是他真正最大的重點是在將士官這個制度還是要做長留久用我想長留久用還是我們對士官制度的一個重點"},{"start":752.014,"end":777.073,"text":"OK那如果說前面這個部分比如說我剛才提到的就是中下市強制退股的部分其實也就是中下市的這個我們的弟兄有來聯絡有在講說這部分他們很擔心就是說到時如果說真的是17年的年限到了他們還不到45歲我如何取得這個葉新鳳的這部分我想就算是有進入到這部分的討論其實應該都會要做對接"},{"start":779.635,"end":800.792,"text":"對不對 不會維持現在的這個制度嗎我想沒有到現在為止就我這邊來理解沒有17年就一定要強制退伍這樣的一個政策也不會往這方面來做規劃嗎因為這個部分都是他們在事關跟事關之間的一個研析所以後續要如何還要報到國安部這邊來我會再做一個審慎的研議OK 好 以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時31分）謝謝主席。有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早。本席要延續陳俊宇委員有關於對美軍購的議題，剛剛部長有提到F-16V BLK70戰機目前在線的有50架，原先66架戰機應該要在115年的時候全數飛返，可是剛剛有報告說是因為產線搬遷要重啟產線，還有供應鏈中斷等等因素，所以造成整個延宕。我有看到在報告裡面提到AGM-154C飛彈現在大概有一個規劃，雖然是延宕，可是還是有提出一個時程，規劃目前是116年到117年會全數交運，然後我看到MK-48重型魚雷也是一樣，雖然我們是延宕的，比原先的交期晚了，可能要到4年的時間才能夠全數交運，可是F-16V BLK70戰機一直都是國人非常注意跟在意的對美軍購案，因為66架到目前為止一架都沒有交付，所以針對這個部分，我們有一個確實的交期嗎？因為部長剛剛說已經有50架在線上了。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我不敢跟委員說到底確定在什麼時候，但是我們預期今年年底應該10架會組裝完成，然後要進行測試的飛行，測試飛行一旦通過之後，如果順利的話，我們就會獲得交機，因為在線組裝也有50架，所以我們會賡續來掌握相關的進度，所以我們認為相關的問題已經在解決之後，剩下來的就是組裝還有測試飛行的問題，當然最後是66架能不能在明年年底之前全數完成，我們不敢說，但是我們在明年應該可以看到飛機飛返交運。"],["羅委員美玲：所以剛剛部長提到的，至少會有10架明年就做交運嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：今年……"],["羅委員美玲：今年？"],["顧部長立雄：今年就會完成10架的組裝，還有待測試的過程，那在線的連同這10架加起來，總共有50架在線組裝。所以我想我們要告訴國人，這個並不是沒有進度的狀態，而是一個還在全數加班趕工的階段，用兩班制、24小時在進行，在線組裝的加起來應該有50架，所以如果測試順利的話，我想明年就會看到F-16V的交運。"],["羅委員美玲：所以部長覺得如果順利的話，大概明年就會完成交運，是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：66架有沒有辦法在明年全數完成交運，我們覺得當然有一定的風險跟挑戰，但明年一定可以看得到F-16V的交運。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，這部分當然美方也可能要積極，我剛才看到報告說他們其實也在加班趕工當中。","再來，我要跟部長討論的是有關於軍事工程延宕的部分，像軍事博物館，其實在去年第一個會期，本席就曾經跟國防部關心過工程延宕之事，剛剛我們有看到國防部提到落後的原因，但這落後的原因整個寫下來，一些內容其實很多人看了也覺得非常不能接受跟滿瞎的，比如說，你們會遇到不良的廠商，然後又提告、又解約、又重購。","計畫的預算，一開始這部分就沒有規劃好，計畫的預算不符市場的行情，後來又不斷地追加預算，我記得一開始應該是17億，到後來不斷地追加到52億，這當中還經歷好幾次的變更設計等等。本來是2023年要完工，我記得上個會期，沈伯洋委員也曾經安排了考察，也說今年10月份會竣工，現在又要延到2026年。我想請教一下，軍事博物館到底什麼時候可以完工？一延再延，這不只是一波三折，是好幾折，請問一下，這部分進行的狀況是如何？目前到底整個工程完成了多少？"],["孫主任立方：委員好，我是政辦室主任孫立方中將，整個案子來跟委員說明。有關軍博館這段，實際上17到52這中間經歷了非常長，從103年一直到真正簽約的時間，經過非常長的一段時間。實際上，最早開標核定的工程款就是34億，在這個過程當中，它本身的量體也有很大的改變。原本地上層跟地下層到現在整個的樓地板面積，都大概增加了兩倍的狀況，那麼最主要原因就是當時在工程設計階段的時候，考量到那個地段本身是比較高價值地段，希望這個量體不要太小，免得讓它整個不符合當地開發的價值，所以整體的狀況，在核定預算的時候，它預算的基準就是46億，所以並沒有說從17億到52億，那……"],["羅委員美玲：那17億當初是怎麼來的呢？一開始說規劃的時候是17億，你現在說是46億，這部分可以解釋一下嗎？因為大家現在都在說17億暴漲到52億，這個部分能夠解釋一下怎麼回事嗎？"],["孫主任立方：報告委員，17億是從最早、最早開始規劃、從103年左右在開始規劃的時候的最基準的數字，其後從103年一直到整個工程實際簽約的這段時間，經歷了它本身量體的倍增，大概幾乎兩倍的量體，然後又經歷了新冠肺炎，這段時間整個物價上漲等等。關鍵的時間，大概在109年的時候，工程會有做了統一的調整，就是針對公共工程，因為不管是原物料、人力通通都上漲以後，他把公共工程整體預算都做了調升指導，所以在這種狀況之下，真正簽約的時間，核定的工程預算是46億，那麼這是有關於主體工程的部分。","另外，我們用了大概有8億的軍投預算，主要是針對博物館除了主體工程以外，內裝裡面不管是展出的東西，或者是展期等等這些規劃，所以整個案子的狀況是這樣。","目前的進度來說，大概是在72%左右，比它計畫的進度略為超前，我們還是緊迫地去管制這個案子，不管是包含設計端、建造端，還有專案管理端，我們是業主，從業主的角度去督導這三方強烈去合作，希望讓整個工程維持在按照它原本進度上去執行。"],["羅委員美玲：我想請問一下，當初我們在估算整個要耗費多少工程的時候，只是算到主體工程的部分，是不是？其實後來我也發現有追加一些其他可能是內部設計等等，當初都沒有算在內嗎？"],["孫主任立方：報告委員，它就是區分兩段，主體工程建造是用營改基金，整個案子當初設計的時候是這樣，裡面內裝包含展務的規劃，我們現在所陳展的這些古物，從當初軍事博物館現在移到這邊來，我們中間除了保管，還要做一些修復的工作，這些都需要一些經費，所以這另外用了8億軍投的預算來維持。"],["羅委員美玲：到底軍事博物館什麼時候能完工？"],["孫主任立方：依照目前的進度，主體工程的部分，我們計劃明年5月完工。"],["羅委員美玲：這是主體建築，那對外營運的部分呢？"],["孫主任立方：對外營運概略的時間是在116年。"],["羅委員美玲：116年，等於2027年才會開始營運。"],["孫主任立方：是。"],["羅委員美玲：因為這部分說實在的，軍事博物館國人其實產生了很多的疑慮，不管是它的營造成本，或是延宕的過程，理由、原因其實都引起了很大的疑慮，我想這部分還是要請國防部多做解釋。因為我看你們落後原因的分析，真的是讓人家還蠻搖頭的，這麼大的公家單位竟然會遇到不良的廠商等等，還要解約、還要重購，這當中就應該花了蠻多時間。","再來，因為時間的關係，我想請教，最近我們有看到網路上面有一個報導，或是說是流傳，國防部將針對士官年資的制度進行改革，本席的辦公室甚至也接到了電話，很擔心往後是不是這個制度改了之後就領不到月退俸？這部分是不是請國防部解釋？假設這個士官25歲入伍，如果你現在改為17年他就必須要強制退伍的話，可是現行的法令取得月退俸的資格是在45歲，如果要修改政策的話，到時是怎麼樣來做對接？也就是說，強制退伍跟月退俸的資格，我們要如何去做對接？這是會調整的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一點，這都還在研議的階段，沒有形成一個政策，這個還沒有報到我這邊來。","第二個，主要的部分應該是在您這個圖上有提到的，是在分職、分等，就是將士官長的分等上面再增加，主要的重點應該是在上面。大家都有看到，營級以上或者旅級以上、軍團級以上，以及司令部以上的部分，事實上，這些如果沒有再多加幾個職等的話，會造成越往上走的士官長，他拿到的薪水會比連級士官長的薪水還要低，因為連級的士官長才拿得到戰鬥部隊的加給，營級以上就拿不到了，所以……"],["羅委員美玲：你現在講的是新增軍階的部分，是不是？就是特等士官長的部分？"],["顧部長立雄：對，重點是在這個部分，至於剛剛委員關心的所謂的中士、下士的退伍時間，我想這都還沒有任何定案，這個有待我們進一步討論，所以有關網路上傳說，他沒有辦法領到退俸，要如何……類似這樣的狀況，我想這個都沒有形成一個政策的共識。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這部分，我們目前是擺在新增軍階的部分，也就是特等士官長的部分你們會先處理……"],["顧部長立雄：其實重點應該……"],["羅委員美玲：其他前面強制退伍的年限等等要提前，這部分到目前為止是還沒有成形就對了？會討論到這部分嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有成形，往上走的這些特等士官長，我們當然也要討論，但是真正最大的重點是在將士官這個制度還是要長留久用，我想長留久用還是我們對士官制度的一個重點。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，那如果前面這部分，就是我剛才提到的中、下士強制退伍，其實中、下士的弟兄有來聯絡，在講說這部分他們很擔心，到時如果17年的年限到了，他們還不到45歲，如何取得月退俸？我想就算是有進入到這部分的討論，其實應該都會要做對接嘛，對不對？不會維持現在的這個制度嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：到現在為止，就我理解，沒有17年就一定要強制退伍這樣的政策形成……"],["羅委員美玲：也不會往這方面來做規劃嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為這個部分都只是他們士官與士官之間的研析，至於後續要如何，還要報到國防部這邊來，我會再做一個審慎的研議。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}