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{\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,874 --> 00:00:01,738\n我們有請顧部長顧部長\n\n2\n00:00:09,730 --> 00:00:35,638\n是陈伟部长早安今天特别聚焦在所有的军购商购因为延迟交货或产生一些其他问题当然今天看到国防部以及相关的同仁大家共同努力希望在这个中间能够尽量缩短延档的时期不过在专案管理部分有一些看法要请部长稍微注意一下我们也请空军参谋长\n\n3\n00:00:41,603 --> 00:01:04,499\n就是有关这个F6VBlock70当初签署发价书的时候美方有向我们表达要迁移生产线厂房要移置吗没有各位听到的只是生产线重新移开厂房换你知道从哪换到哪了\n\n4\n00:01:08,602 --> 00:01:32,755\n從德州換到南卡的格林維爾對從德州的FortWorth然後整個搬到南卡州的Greenvale那德州生產線是不是關掉不是因為他還有其他的構型在身他把它做一個切割那這個在簽署發價書的時候因為沒有提所以產生的衝擊等於說美方沒有給我們一個預警時間\n\n5\n00:01:34,096 --> 00:01:41,093\n另外就是我們的駐場現在是派到什麼層級的人專案管理一位中校兩位少校\n\n6\n00:01:42,305 --> 00:02:09,952\n我特别要强调我们派出去的专案管理人才就像以军总来讲并不只聚焦于兵科甚至是有关后勤补给采购他的专业这个钱不能省因为有月会有忌讳他要把所有的专案管理中间看到的瑕疵问题随时报回来必要的时候我们要请助长代表\n\n7\n00:02:10,872 --> 00:02:37,486\n回国来做专案报告这个是要大家努力的因为这个过去我们都疏忽了军种在培养专案管理的人才数量上显然不足也就是随着国防的预算大幅成长的时候我们只看到的兵科军官我们就是飞行员的座舱比飞机的妥善率但是我们没有看到整个专案管理中这些驻场人其实花的是小钱\n\n8\n00:02:38,286 --> 00:03:07,221\n如果你多两个人能够及时的把一些讯息或者跟美方沟通以及军事代表团相互沟通这种情况下我们三个军种都要做改进这个是现实问题不是谁不努力而是我们人才不足举一个例来讲就是国防大学的管理学院就专案管理理论上我们如果有一个重大的军事投资案其实可以委托国防大学\n\n9\n00:03:08,061 --> 00:03:26,553\n开一个专案班哪怕是两个礼拜三个礼拜不涉及机密所有合约过程军售过程这个管理东西通通要在国防大学开班我就举个例来讲我们陆军的海马斯这个已经交货了\n\n10\n00:03:28,139 --> 00:03:54,200\n甚至有人说提前交货专案管理里面只有准时交货提前不是好事提前你的库房人才备料都还没备变结果硬体来了提前交货不能延宕当然更不可那请问海马斯火箭它的数据化的这种指管系统现在在陆军战院请问教育长陆军战院有更新课程吗\n\n11\n00:03:55,522 --> 00:04:02,327\n跟委員報告那個有關於國軍軍力同時建範開放作客開放作客這部分我們\n\n12\n00:04:05,563 --> 00:04:24,790\n班隊名稱我們是開為軍事投資建案班區分為上下半年我們有各開訓一次訓習是4週週限對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主然後課程我們既有作業規定工業合作跟產能評估作業還有採購計畫編制作業\n\n13\n00:04:27,093 --> 00:04:42,070\n跟三類二項有關跟委員所說的數據的這個部分這個我目前沒有掌握我回去會去跟我們的教官取一個最新的數據我覺得整個我們的國軍不管是任理事或者是\n\n14\n00:04:43,271 --> 00:05:12,165\n这个所谓整平跟资源师这个对于国军新的专案出来要给国防大学做指导不是靠教官教官他根本没有在美国铸厂过他教什么东西尤其是合约军售的条款跟商售的条款这个要用过去参与过专案的人在那个地方大家整合起来来教这个课因为现在就说你案子成立了可是没有去铸厂以前你背景都不知道也不是有经验的\n\n15\n00:05:12,785 --> 00:05:38,045\n那请问海马斯的这个全部数位化的系统啊我就问在陆院你教了课了没有请问你现在的UTM公元2000年的纸本你现在还在用它做演习那你这个教学不能够只参更新你回来这些毕业的人回到部队去他心后观念这个落差非常大了我一直在这个质询过程中强调所有的重点\n\n16\n00:05:39,147 --> 00:05:57,066\n不是预算多少而是你有多少人才因为没有足够的人才对这些先进的装备完全因为我没有构想这个我希望国防大学跟这个联谊市长是这边共同努力赶快把他课程了不只是在管院\n\n17\n00:05:58,092 --> 00:06:11,298\n三軍的子參學院對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後你都要交貨了你課程準則教範都來不及更新啊另外就是說這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用保養手冊\n\n18\n00:06:12,523 --> 00:06:30,668\n原本是英文版的部隊第一批人派出去受訓他會他回來了兩年三年調差他也沒有回學校去繼續留下來教所以會產生一些落差那這個部分我們是希望大家在這個部分要強化要努力那這是第一個問題\n\n19\n00:06:35,791 --> 00:06:47,908\n您有要反應嗎是包委員只是做技師的次長就如同委員所提示的其實每一件的武器裝備跟系統最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想\n\n20\n00:06:48,809 --> 00:07:11,462\n能夠結合聯合作戰的需求能夠納入五年兵力整建計劃裡面逐年籌購並且按照計劃專案計劃的期程來去建構包含準則的建構並且納入到教則教範以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力這部分在我們的各項的計劃作業從採購計劃當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃這個向委員做說明\n\n21\n00:07:18,322 --> 00:07:46,213\n好謝謝我們下面再一個問題就是因為在美台國防工業的時候就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造台灣之盾台灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統因為陸軍海軍空軍整個系統的指管裡面它的美方廠商跟中科院它的背景不同那這次台灣之盾是一個理想很重要但是有規劃其成嗎\n\n22\n00:07:47,754 --> 00:08:07,959\n那知道什么时候完成吗还是把现有的武器系统全部做整合过去连山曾经讲过我们要怎么讲去中心化那是指地面部队我强调了如果你去中心化你这个盾就没有了就到处是漏洞了所以一定是一个完整的系统那这个系统啊\n\n23\n00:08:09,232 --> 00:08:24,386\n是一個理想的那預計要多少年今天來講只是一個構想推出來那要三個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標最主要就是我們講到的這個人才在這個軍售裡面\n\n24\n00:08:26,776 --> 00:08:40,890\n美方讲得很清楚不赚不赔不罚所以没有什么法律诉讼所有的问题是政府对政府而且他要求你不可以以军总代表去跟厂商谈细节那不可以的禁止的\n\n25\n00:08:41,711 --> 00:09:09,556\n所有铸厂的问题他看到的问题他要回馈铸厂看到的问题他是跟工程师谈的话毫无作用因为每一个美国的厂他都有律师跟会计师你不可以逾越你的合约规范他的合约是他跟美国的合约然后美国的合约是根据我们的LOR签的细节所以这个部分我们希望大家把法条要搞清楚\n\n26\n00:09:10,456 --> 00:09:39,580\n讲得很清楚那其他的我也希望这边让我们的立法院同仁了解美军收的是专案管理费用那我们不可以去查那虽然做专案review的时候我们有派人那对口是美军你不能跟厂商直接谈所以在这个过程里面你看到美军一个飞机申购作业流程哪个阶段他可以挡你哪个阶段通过但不代表拿到了出口许可\n\n27\n00:09:40,680 --> 00:10:08,345\n你就一切照进度那特别要讲到商售问题因为商售问题碰到的是什么就是说供应链里面的只合约商被其他厂商并购了就产生延迟交货了专案管理人被换掉了这些东西都要有法律背景的专业跟采购后勤的人参与这种就不是我们兵科军官能够直接去参与的了这个部分我就强调还是在国防大学的教育\n\n28\n00:10:09,554 --> 00:10:29,896\n以前在过去裁剪这个我们编装缘合之前过去军总都有五或四他是一个专案管理现在回到各计划处回到后勤处所以他又分开来了专案管理的人善在各地那到底是哪个长官负责全面了解这个我们需要在这个地方大家来努力\n\n29\n00:10:32,813 --> 00:10:51,686\n潛艦也是一样因为它是商售请问如果一个15年的计划20年的计划它的出口许可是几年呢没有15年的出口许可请问如果是一个长期层的合约你跟厂商签的你的美金的汇率跟台币是用多少固定值呢\n\n30\n00:10:52,926 --> 00:11:02,412\n15年到20年間的製造人力成本工時分攤這個都是要專案管理這個絕對不是兵科軍官一般可以了解的所以在這個裡面軍總的律師\n\n31\n00:11:06,411 --> 00:11:29,535\n台湾不管是汉祥的或是台船的或是其他制造厂的律师以及产生问题后要产生仲裁到第三地区的律师这个团队我想部长是专家了在这个地方您要多给指导因为现在军总来讲大家看到都是很乐观的指数而不敢去面对那种法律上的挑战问题\n\n32\n00:11:31,390 --> 00:11:59,819\n最後一個我特別再講這個是從漢光演習以來我們每天都面臨的沒有少過的那是今天早上八點半我請連山次長幫忙您看一下這問題賴總統說海巡署肩負防衛執法救援及國際合作多重工作是國安治安平安的第一道防驗就金門外島來講禁限制水域是金防部的責任還是海巡的責任\n\n33\n00:12:02,672 --> 00:12:21,932\n包委員整體的這個整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃那當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁縣制水域當中一些狀況的應處那會整合運用包含海巡署包含我們防衛部的相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處\n\n34\n00:12:23,773 --> 00:12:43,904\n我這樣解釋啊您講的是理念我現在告訴你這是今天早上八點半的十五條中共的商船在你的禁限制防衛部無法應處你好無作為愛國啊執法理念啊我尊重啊當初這個我們的這個政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談\n\n35\n00:12:45,932 --> 00:13:11,161\n從頭到尾因為你在那邊沒有海軍的艦艇兵力你只有海巡的執法兵力今天早上15條商船在你的禁限制水域通過防衛司令部是無法反應請問這個圖你們有看到嗎今天早上的另外有10條商船在我們家的前院也好後院也好毛破他也不給停車費他幹嘛他排隊準備進廈門港\n\n36\n00:13:13,254 --> 00:13:33,963\n比較麻煩的是有30條商船漁船我們看不到全部是把AS關掉的灰色的他全部停在這邊以這麼龐大的數字請問金房部有能力處理嗎海巡署如何處理這個是每天壓力越來越大部長您的看法\n\n37\n00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:53,738\n跟委員報告我想國安部是就這個兩岸人民關係條29條去國安的立場我們劃設這個淨縣市水域那當然委員應該也能夠理解這個淨縣市水域因為金門過於靠近這個中國大陸的一個本土所以劃過淨縣市水域等於就是進入中國的領海這個部分\n\n38\n00:13:54,298 --> 00:14:18,616\n那所以相關的這個29條我們劃設了之後呢我們就這個以這個不撐高衝突的委員的情況之下我們有海巡來做事法的一個質詢那當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照這個中國大陸的船舶他們進入的這個狀況來做事切的一個應酬\n\n39\n00:14:19,937 --> 00:14:40,232\n这个部分我想海巡跟海军还是会相互扮演一个互为支援的一个角色我认同部长的说法了我把现况告诉你这个现在看到的现象远超过你的负荷理论上因为它不是我的领海它是境限制水域它没有办法享有无害通过但是\n\n40\n00:14:41,240 --> 00:15:03,654\n他吃你豆腐他就從你家門口大概就在近的距離大概6000碼就在你旁邊經過另外就是下毛下毛有的時候停一天有時候停兩天現在用軟體全部可以監控得到事實上是不是每天早上中午前這個狀況都有回報到我們國防部或者你自己根本就可以掌握\n\n41\n00:15:04,815 --> 00:15:21,602\n现在是因为这些不遵照法规的把AIS关闭的船的数量太多那我们的海巡远超负荷他不可能每条船去临检去驱逐那这个现象持续延续下去我们如何处置\n\n42\n00:15:23,550 --> 00:15:41,741\n在這個金門這個水域上面我剛剛也有已經講到了就是說商船中國大陸的這個商船的部分進入淨線是水域我們看看他要對於我們的危害的一個程度我想我們做一個視線的映出這個是現實上我們必須要考量他對於我們的這個進入的這個\n\n43\n00:15:44,643 --> 00:16:06,559\n程度到底是如何但是我們當然相關還是會做一些警告等等的那警告無效我們再試這個狀況的部分來再看決定要不要做進一步的一個升高的作為但是我想在這個金門的附近的水域的維持對海巡來講的確是一個非常辛苦的工作\n\n44\n00:16:08,457 --> 00:16:32,598\n我想就是站在國防部跟海委會陸委會在這個部分要做溝通也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作未來來講是一個障礙我們不希望人家佔我們便宜站到你門口最主要一個嚴重問題當商船在這邊下錨\n\n45\n00:16:35,455 --> 00:16:54,905\n他会排放污水也就是说他会把金门附近的水域都污染掉了那对金门的渔民来讲是不公平的那另外一个就是把AS关掉就代表他隐匿他的行踪你不知道他的门牌号码传集那这种情况下做对我们有\n\n46\n00:16:56,206 --> 00:17:11,507\n這個反向滲透觀察那這種作為他是持續在做的那這個部分我希望國防部海委會以及陸委會大家在這個理念上要做溝通怎麼解套因為這個現象持續發生我每天都做\n\n47\n00:17:12,188 --> 00:17:33,900\n早中晚都做我都在觀察所以每一次的時候我會問各位這是今天早上的那你如何應處那你不能講海委會現在海巡署在增加製造船若干年後增加多少條那是明天的事我們只講今天如何應處這個地方要大家努力關注這也是所謂的你的一個所謂的台灣防衛盾裡面的一個element\n\n48\n00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:51,081\n今天質詢到這個地方是我想委員指教我們針對海域的執法會考慮到這個航運安全然後海洋漁業的資源漁民的權益跟還有軍事安全的這個部分來做一個比例的一個原則的世界應酬這樣子好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n874\t1738\t我們有請顧部長顧部長\n9730\t35638\t是 陈伟部长早安今天特别聚焦在所有的军购商购因为延迟交货或产生一些其他问题当然今天看到国防部以及相关的同仁大家共同努力希望在这个中间能够尽量缩短延档的时期不过在专案管理部分有一些看法要请部长稍微注意一下我们也请空军参谋长\n41603\t64499\t就是有关这个F6V Block 70当初签署发价书的时候美方有向我们表达要迁移生产线厂房要移置吗没有各位听到的只是生产线重新移开厂房换你知道从哪换到哪了\n68602\t92755\t從德州換到南卡的格林維爾對 從德州的Fort Worth然後整個搬到南卡州的Greenvale那德州生產線是不是關掉不是 因為他還有其他的構型在身他把它做一個切割那這個在簽署發價書的時候因為沒有提所以產生的衝擊等於說美方沒有給我們一個預警時間\n94096\t101093\t另外就是我們的駐場現在是派到什麼層級的人專案管理一位中校兩位少校\n102305\t129952\t我特别要强调我们派出去的专案管理人才就像以军总来讲并不只聚焦于兵科甚至是有关后勤补给采购他的专业这个钱不能省因为有月会有忌讳他要把所有的专案管理中间看到的瑕疵问题随时报回来必要的时候我们要请助长代表\n130872\t157486\t回国来做专案报告这个是要大家努力的因为这个过去我们都疏忽了军种在培养专案管理的人才数量上显然不足也就是随着国防的预算大幅成长的时候我们只看到的兵科军官我们就是飞行员的座舱比飞机的妥善率但是我们没有看到整个专案管理中这些驻场人其实花的是小钱\n158286\t187221\t如果你多两个人能够及时的把一些讯息或者跟美方沟通以及军事代表团相互沟通这种情况下我们三个军种都要做改进这个是现实问题不是谁不努力而是我们人才不足举一个例来讲就是国防大学的管理学院就专案管理理论上我们如果有一个重大的军事投资案其实可以委托国防大学\n188061\t206553\t开一个专案班哪怕是两个礼拜三个礼拜不涉及机密所有合约过程军售过程这个管理东西通通要在国防大学开班我就举个例来讲我们陆军的海马斯这个已经交货了\n208139\t234200\t甚至有人说提前交货专案管理里面只有准时交货提前不是好事提前你的库房人才备料都还没备变结果硬体来了提前交货不能延宕当然更不可那请问海马斯火箭它的数据化的这种指管系统现在在陆军战院请问教育长陆军战院有更新课程吗\n235522\t242327\t跟委員報告那個有關於國軍軍力同時建範開放作客開放作客這部分我們\n245563\t264790\t班隊名稱我們是開為軍事投資建案班區分為上下半年我們有各開訓一次訓習是4週週限對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主然後課程我們既有作業規定工業合作跟產能評估作業還有採購計畫編制作業\n267093\t282070\t跟三類二項有關跟委員所說的數據的這個部分這個我目前沒有掌握我回去會去跟我們的教官取一個最新的數據我覺得整個我們的國軍不管是任理事或者是\n283271\t312165\t这个所谓整平跟资源师这个对于国军新的专案出来要给国防大学做指导不是靠教官教官他根本没有在美国铸厂过他教什么东西尤其是合约军售的条款跟商售的条款这个要用过去参与过专案的人在那个地方大家整合起来来教这个课因为现在就说你案子成立了可是没有去铸厂以前你背景都不知道也不是有经验的\n312785\t338045\t那请问海马斯的这个全部数位化的系统啊我就问在陆院你教了课了没有请问你现在的UTM公元2000年的纸本你现在还在用它做演习那你这个教学不能够只参更新你回来这些毕业的人回到部队去他心后观念这个落差非常大了我一直在这个质询过程中强调所有的重点\n339147\t357066\t不是预算多少而是你有多少人才因为没有足够的人才对这些先进的装备完全因为我没有构想这个我希望国防大学跟这个联谊市长是这边共同努力赶快把他课程了不只是在管院\n358092\t371298\t三軍的子參學院對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後你都要交貨了你課程準則教範都來不及更新啊另外就是說這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用保養手冊\n372523\t390668\t原本是英文版的部隊第一批人派出去受訓他會他回來了兩年三年調差他也沒有回學校去繼續留下來教所以會產生一些落差那這個部分我們是希望大家在這個部分要強化要努力那這是第一個問題\n395791\t407908\t您有要反應嗎是 包委員只是做技師的次長就如同委員所提示的其實每一件的武器裝備跟系統最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想\n408809\t431462\t能夠結合聯合作戰的需求能夠納入五年兵力整建計劃裡面逐年籌購並且按照計劃專案計劃的期程來去建構包含準則的建構並且納入到教則教範以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力這部分在我們的各項的計劃作業從採購計劃當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃這個向委員做說明\n438322\t466213\t好 謝謝我們下面再一個問題就是因為在美台國防工業的時候就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造台灣之盾台灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統因為陸軍 海軍 空軍整個系統的指管裡面它的美方廠商跟中科院它的背景不同那這次台灣之盾是一個理想很重要但是有規劃其成嗎\n467754\t487959\t那知道什么时候完成吗还是把现有的武器系统全部做整合过去连山曾经讲过我们要怎么讲去中心化那是指地面部队我强调了如果你去中心化你这个盾就没有了就到处是漏洞了所以一定是一个完整的系统那这个系统啊\n489232\t504386\t是一個理想的那預計要多少年今天來講只是一個構想推出來那要三個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標最主要就是我們講到的這個人才在這個軍售裡面\n506776\t520890\t美方讲得很清楚不赚不赔不罚所以没有什么法律诉讼所有的问题是政府对政府而且他要求你不可以以军总代表去跟厂商谈细节那不可以的禁止的\n521711\t549556\t所有铸厂的问题他看到的问题他要回馈铸厂看到的问题他是跟工程师谈的话毫无作用因为每一个美国的厂他都有律师跟会计师你不可以逾越你的合约规范他的合约是他跟美国的合约然后美国的合约是根据我们的LOR签的细节所以这个部分我们希望大家把法条要搞清楚\n550456\t579580\t讲得很清楚那其他的我也希望这边让我们的立法院同仁了解美军收的是专案管理费用那我们不可以去查那虽然做专案review的时候我们有派人那对口是美军你不能跟厂商直接谈所以在这个过程里面你看到美军一个飞机申购作业流程哪个阶段他可以挡你哪个阶段通过但不代表拿到了出口许可\n580680\t608345\t你就一切照进度那特别要讲到商售问题因为商售问题碰到的是什么就是说供应链里面的只合约商被其他厂商并购了就产生延迟交货了专案管理人被换掉了这些东西都要有法律背景的专业跟采购后勤的人参与这种就不是我们兵科军官能够直接去参与的了这个部分我就强调还是在国防大学的教育\n609554\t629896\t以前在过去裁剪这个我们编装缘合之前过去军总都有五或四他是一个专案管理现在回到各计划处回到后勤处所以他又分开来了专案管理的人善在各地那到底是哪个长官负责全面了解这个我们需要在这个地方大家来努力\n632813\t651686\t潛艦也是一样因为它是商售请问如果一个15年的计划20年的计划它的出口许可是几年呢没有15年的出口许可请问如果是一个长期层的合约你跟厂商签的你的美金的汇率跟台币是用多少固定值呢\n652926\t662412\t15年到20年間的製造人力成本工時分攤這個都是要專案管理這個絕對不是兵科軍官一般可以了解的所以在這個裡面軍總的律師\n666411\t689535\t台湾不管是汉祥的或是台船的或是其他制造厂的律师以及产生问题后要产生仲裁到第三地区的律师这个团队我想部长是专家了在这个地方您要多给指导因为现在军总来讲大家看到都是很乐观的指数而不敢去面对那种法律上的挑战问题\n691390\t719819\t最後一個我特別再講這個是從漢光演習以來我們每天都面臨的沒有少過的那是今天早上八點半我請連山次長幫忙您看一下這問題賴總統說海巡署肩負防衛執法救援及國際合作多重工作是國安治安平安的第一道防驗就金門外島來講禁限制水域是金防部的責任還是海巡的責任\n722672\t741932\t包委員整體的這個整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃那當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁縣制水域當中一些狀況的應處那會整合運用包含海巡署包含我們防衛部的相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處\n743773\t763904\t我這樣解釋啊您講的是理念我現在告訴你這是今天早上八點半的十五條中共的商船在你的禁限制防衛部無法應處你好無作為愛國啊執法理念啊我尊重啊當初這個我們的這個政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談\n765932\t791161\t從頭到尾因為你在那邊沒有海軍的艦艇兵力你只有海巡的執法兵力今天早上15條商船在你的禁限制水域通過防衛司令部是無法反應請問這個圖你們有看到嗎今天早上的另外有10條商船在我們家的前院也好後院也好毛破他也不給停車費他幹嘛他排隊準備進廈門港\n793254\t813963\t比較麻煩的是有30條商船漁船我們看不到全部是把AS關掉的灰色的他全部停在這邊以這麼龐大的數字請問金房部有能力處理嗎海巡署如何處理這個是每天壓力越來越大部長您的看法\n815070\t833738\t跟委員報告我想國安部是就這個兩岸人民關係條29條去國安的立場我們劃設這個淨縣市水域那當然委員應該也能夠理解這個淨縣市水域因為金門過於靠近這個中國大陸的一個本土所以劃過淨縣市水域等於就是進入中國的領海這個部分\n834298\t858616\t那所以相關的這個29條我們劃設了之後呢我們就這個以這個不撐高衝突的委員的情況之下我們有海巡來做事法的一個質詢那當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照這個中國大陸的船舶他們進入的這個狀況來做事切的一個應酬\n859937\t880232\t这个部分我想海巡跟海军还是会相互扮演一个互为支援的一个角色我认同部长的说法了我把现况告诉你这个现在看到的现象远超过你的负荷理论上因为它不是我的领海它是境限制水域它没有办法享有无害通过但是\n881240\t903654\t他吃你豆腐他就從你家門口大概就在近的距離大概6000碼就在你旁邊經過另外就是下毛下毛有的時候停一天有時候停兩天現在用軟體全部可以監控得到事實上是不是每天早上中午前這個狀況都有回報到我們國防部或者你自己根本就可以掌握\n904815\t921602\t现在是因为这些不遵照法规的把AIS关闭的船的数量太多那我们的海巡远超负荷他不可能每条船去临检去驱逐那这个现象持续延续下去我们如何处置\n923550\t941741\t在這個金門這個水域上面我剛剛也有已經講到了就是說商船中國大陸的這個商船的部分進入淨線是水域我們看看他要對於我們的危害的一個程度我想我們做一個視線的映出這個是現實上我們必須要考量他對於我們的這個進入的這個\n944643\t966559\t程度到底是如何但是我們當然相關還是會做一些警告等等的那警告無效我們再試這個狀況的部分來再看決定要不要做進一步的一個升高的作為但是我想在這個金門的附近的水域的維持對海巡來講的確是一個非常辛苦的工作\n968457\t992598\t我想就是站在國防部跟海委會陸委會在這個部分要做溝通也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作未來來講是一個障礙我們不希望人家佔我們便宜站到你門口最主要一個嚴重問題當商船在這邊下錨\n995455\t1014905\t他会排放污水也就是说他会把金门附近的水域都污染掉了那对金门的渔民来讲是不公平的那另外一个就是把AS关掉就代表他隐匿他的行踪你不知道他的门牌号码传集那这种情况下做对我们有\n1016206\t1031507\t這個反向滲透觀察那這種作為他是持續在做的那這個部分我希望國防部海委會以及陸委會大家在這個理念上要做溝通怎麼解套因為這個現象持續發生我每天都做\n1032188\t1053900\t早中晚都做我都在觀察所以每一次的時候我會問各位這是今天早上的那你如何應處那你不能講海委會現在海巡署在增加製造船若干年後增加多少條那是明天的事我們只講今天如何應處這個地方要大家努力關注這也是所謂的你的一個所謂的台灣防衛盾裡面的一個element\n1054620\t1071081\t今天質詢到這個地方是我想委員指教我們針對海域的執法會考慮到這個航運安全然後海洋漁業的資源漁民的權益跟還有軍事安全的這個部分來做一個比例的一個原則的世界應酬這樣子好謝謝謝謝\n","txt":"我們有請顧部長顧部長\n是 陈伟部长早安今天特别聚焦在所有的军购商购因为延迟交货或产生一些其他问题当然今天看到国防部以及相关的同仁大家共同努力希望在这个中间能够尽量缩短延档的时期不过在专案管理部分有一些看法要请部长稍微注意一下我们也请空军参谋长\n就是有关这个F6V Block 70当初签署发价书的时候美方有向我们表达要迁移生产线厂房要移置吗没有各位听到的只是生产线重新移开厂房换你知道从哪换到哪了\n從德州換到南卡的格林維爾對 從德州的Fort Worth然後整個搬到南卡州的Greenvale那德州生產線是不是關掉不是 因為他還有其他的構型在身他把它做一個切割那這個在簽署發價書的時候因為沒有提所以產生的衝擊等於說美方沒有給我們一個預警時間\n另外就是我們的駐場現在是派到什麼層級的人專案管理一位中校兩位少校\n我特别要强调我们派出去的专案管理人才就像以军总来讲并不只聚焦于兵科甚至是有关后勤补给采购他的专业这个钱不能省因为有月会有忌讳他要把所有的专案管理中间看到的瑕疵问题随时报回来必要的时候我们要请助长代表\n回国来做专案报告这个是要大家努力的因为这个过去我们都疏忽了军种在培养专案管理的人才数量上显然不足也就是随着国防的预算大幅成长的时候我们只看到的兵科军官我们就是飞行员的座舱比飞机的妥善率但是我们没有看到整个专案管理中这些驻场人其实花的是小钱\n如果你多两个人能够及时的把一些讯息或者跟美方沟通以及军事代表团相互沟通这种情况下我们三个军种都要做改进这个是现实问题不是谁不努力而是我们人才不足举一个例来讲就是国防大学的管理学院就专案管理理论上我们如果有一个重大的军事投资案其实可以委托国防大学\n开一个专案班哪怕是两个礼拜三个礼拜不涉及机密所有合约过程军售过程这个管理东西通通要在国防大学开班我就举个例来讲我们陆军的海马斯这个已经交货了\n甚至有人说提前交货专案管理里面只有准时交货提前不是好事提前你的库房人才备料都还没备变结果硬体来了提前交货不能延宕当然更不可那请问海马斯火箭它的数据化的这种指管系统现在在陆军战院请问教育长陆军战院有更新课程吗\n跟委員報告那個有關於國軍軍力同時建範開放作客開放作客這部分我們\n班隊名稱我們是開為軍事投資建案班區分為上下半年我們有各開訓一次訓習是4週週限對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主然後課程我們既有作業規定工業合作跟產能評估作業還有採購計畫編制作業\n跟三類二項有關跟委員所說的數據的這個部分這個我目前沒有掌握我回去會去跟我們的教官取一個最新的數據我覺得整個我們的國軍不管是任理事或者是\n这个所谓整平跟资源师这个对于国军新的专案出来要给国防大学做指导不是靠教官教官他根本没有在美国铸厂过他教什么东西尤其是合约军售的条款跟商售的条款这个要用过去参与过专案的人在那个地方大家整合起来来教这个课因为现在就说你案子成立了可是没有去铸厂以前你背景都不知道也不是有经验的\n那请问海马斯的这个全部数位化的系统啊我就问在陆院你教了课了没有请问你现在的UTM公元2000年的纸本你现在还在用它做演习那你这个教学不能够只参更新你回来这些毕业的人回到部队去他心后观念这个落差非常大了我一直在这个质询过程中强调所有的重点\n不是预算多少而是你有多少人才因为没有足够的人才对这些先进的装备完全因为我没有构想这个我希望国防大学跟这个联谊市长是这边共同努力赶快把他课程了不只是在管院\n三軍的子參學院對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後你都要交貨了你課程準則教範都來不及更新啊另外就是說這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用保養手冊\n原本是英文版的部隊第一批人派出去受訓他會他回來了兩年三年調差他也沒有回學校去繼續留下來教所以會產生一些落差那這個部分我們是希望大家在這個部分要強化要努力那這是第一個問題\n您有要反應嗎是 包委員只是做技師的次長就如同委員所提示的其實每一件的武器裝備跟系統最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想\n能夠結合聯合作戰的需求能夠納入五年兵力整建計劃裡面逐年籌購並且按照計劃專案計劃的期程來去建構包含準則的建構並且納入到教則教範以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力這部分在我們的各項的計劃作業從採購計劃當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃這個向委員做說明\n好 謝謝我們下面再一個問題就是因為在美台國防工業的時候就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造台灣之盾台灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統因為陸軍 海軍 空軍整個系統的指管裡面它的美方廠商跟中科院它的背景不同那這次台灣之盾是一個理想很重要但是有規劃其成嗎\n那知道什么时候完成吗还是把现有的武器系统全部做整合过去连山曾经讲过我们要怎么讲去中心化那是指地面部队我强调了如果你去中心化你这个盾就没有了就到处是漏洞了所以一定是一个完整的系统那这个系统啊\n是一個理想的那預計要多少年今天來講只是一個構想推出來那要三個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標最主要就是我們講到的這個人才在這個軍售裡面\n美方讲得很清楚不赚不赔不罚所以没有什么法律诉讼所有的问题是政府对政府而且他要求你不可以以军总代表去跟厂商谈细节那不可以的禁止的\n所有铸厂的问题他看到的问题他要回馈铸厂看到的问题他是跟工程师谈的话毫无作用因为每一个美国的厂他都有律师跟会计师你不可以逾越你的合约规范他的合约是他跟美国的合约然后美国的合约是根据我们的LOR签的细节所以这个部分我们希望大家把法条要搞清楚\n讲得很清楚那其他的我也希望这边让我们的立法院同仁了解美军收的是专案管理费用那我们不可以去查那虽然做专案review的时候我们有派人那对口是美军你不能跟厂商直接谈所以在这个过程里面你看到美军一个飞机申购作业流程哪个阶段他可以挡你哪个阶段通过但不代表拿到了出口许可\n你就一切照进度那特别要讲到商售问题因为商售问题碰到的是什么就是说供应链里面的只合约商被其他厂商并购了就产生延迟交货了专案管理人被换掉了这些东西都要有法律背景的专业跟采购后勤的人参与这种就不是我们兵科军官能够直接去参与的了这个部分我就强调还是在国防大学的教育\n以前在过去裁剪这个我们编装缘合之前过去军总都有五或四他是一个专案管理现在回到各计划处回到后勤处所以他又分开来了专案管理的人善在各地那到底是哪个长官负责全面了解这个我们需要在这个地方大家来努力\n潛艦也是一样因为它是商售请问如果一个15年的计划20年的计划它的出口许可是几年呢没有15年的出口许可请问如果是一个长期层的合约你跟厂商签的你的美金的汇率跟台币是用多少固定值呢\n15年到20年間的製造人力成本工時分攤這個都是要專案管理這個絕對不是兵科軍官一般可以了解的所以在這個裡面軍總的律師\n台湾不管是汉祥的或是台船的或是其他制造厂的律师以及产生问题后要产生仲裁到第三地区的律师这个团队我想部长是专家了在这个地方您要多给指导因为现在军总来讲大家看到都是很乐观的指数而不敢去面对那种法律上的挑战问题\n最後一個我特別再講這個是從漢光演習以來我們每天都面臨的沒有少過的那是今天早上八點半我請連山次長幫忙您看一下這問題賴總統說海巡署肩負防衛執法救援及國際合作多重工作是國安治安平安的第一道防驗就金門外島來講禁限制水域是金防部的責任還是海巡的責任\n包委員整體的這個整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃那當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁縣制水域當中一些狀況的應處那會整合運用包含海巡署包含我們防衛部的相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處\n我這樣解釋啊您講的是理念我現在告訴你這是今天早上八點半的十五條中共的商船在你的禁限制防衛部無法應處你好無作為愛國啊執法理念啊我尊重啊當初這個我們的這個政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談\n從頭到尾因為你在那邊沒有海軍的艦艇兵力你只有海巡的執法兵力今天早上15條商船在你的禁限制水域通過防衛司令部是無法反應請問這個圖你們有看到嗎今天早上的另外有10條商船在我們家的前院也好後院也好毛破他也不給停車費他幹嘛他排隊準備進廈門港\n比較麻煩的是有30條商船漁船我們看不到全部是把AS關掉的灰色的他全部停在這邊以這麼龐大的數字請問金房部有能力處理嗎海巡署如何處理這個是每天壓力越來越大部長您的看法\n跟委員報告我想國安部是就這個兩岸人民關係條29條去國安的立場我們劃設這個淨縣市水域那當然委員應該也能夠理解這個淨縣市水域因為金門過於靠近這個中國大陸的一個本土所以劃過淨縣市水域等於就是進入中國的領海這個部分\n那所以相關的這個29條我們劃設了之後呢我們就這個以這個不撐高衝突的委員的情況之下我們有海巡來做事法的一個質詢那當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照這個中國大陸的船舶他們進入的這個狀況來做事切的一個應酬\n这个部分我想海巡跟海军还是会相互扮演一个互为支援的一个角色我认同部长的说法了我把现况告诉你这个现在看到的现象远超过你的负荷理论上因为它不是我的领海它是境限制水域它没有办法享有无害通过但是\n他吃你豆腐他就從你家門口大概就在近的距離大概6000碼就在你旁邊經過另外就是下毛下毛有的時候停一天有時候停兩天現在用軟體全部可以監控得到事實上是不是每天早上中午前這個狀況都有回報到我們國防部或者你自己根本就可以掌握\n现在是因为这些不遵照法规的把AIS关闭的船的数量太多那我们的海巡远超负荷他不可能每条船去临检去驱逐那这个现象持续延续下去我们如何处置\n在這個金門這個水域上面我剛剛也有已經講到了就是說商船中國大陸的這個商船的部分進入淨線是水域我們看看他要對於我們的危害的一個程度我想我們做一個視線的映出這個是現實上我們必須要考量他對於我們的這個進入的這個\n程度到底是如何但是我們當然相關還是會做一些警告等等的那警告無效我們再試這個狀況的部分來再看決定要不要做進一步的一個升高的作為但是我想在這個金門的附近的水域的維持對海巡來講的確是一個非常辛苦的工作\n我想就是站在國防部跟海委會陸委會在這個部分要做溝通也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作未來來講是一個障礙我們不希望人家佔我們便宜站到你門口最主要一個嚴重問題當商船在這邊下錨\n他会排放污水也就是说他会把金门附近的水域都污染掉了那对金门的渔民来讲是不公平的那另外一个就是把AS关掉就代表他隐匿他的行踪你不知道他的门牌号码传集那这种情况下做对我们有\n這個反向滲透觀察那這種作為他是持續在做的那這個部分我希望國防部海委會以及陸委會大家在這個理念上要做溝通怎麼解套因為這個現象持續發生我每天都做\n早中晚都做我都在觀察所以每一次的時候我會問各位這是今天早上的那你如何應處那你不能講海委會現在海巡署在增加製造船若干年後增加多少條那是明天的事我們只講今天如何應處這個地方要大家努力關注這也是所謂的你的一個所謂的台灣防衛盾裡面的一個element\n今天質詢到這個地方是我想委員指教我們針對海域的執法會考慮到這個航運安全然後海洋漁業的資源漁民的權益跟還有軍事安全的這個部分來做一個比例的一個原則的世界應酬這樣子好謝謝謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.874 --> 00:01.738\n我們有請顧部長顧部長\n\n00:09.730 --> 00:35.638\n是陈伟部长早安今天特别聚焦在所有的军购商购因为延迟交货或产生一些其他问题当然今天看到国防部以及相关的同仁大家共同努力希望在这个中间能够尽量缩短延档的时期不过在专案管理部分有一些看法要请部长稍微注意一下我们也请空军参谋长\n\n00:41.603 --> 01:04.499\n就是有关这个F6VBlock70当初签署发价书的时候美方有向我们表达要迁移生产线厂房要移置吗没有各位听到的只是生产线重新移开厂房换你知道从哪换到哪了\n\n01:08.602 --> 01:32.755\n從德州換到南卡的格林維爾對從德州的FortWorth然後整個搬到南卡州的Greenvale那德州生產線是不是關掉不是因為他還有其他的構型在身他把它做一個切割那這個在簽署發價書的時候因為沒有提所以產生的衝擊等於說美方沒有給我們一個預警時間\n\n01:34.096 --> 01:41.093\n另外就是我們的駐場現在是派到什麼層級的人專案管理一位中校兩位少校\n\n01:42.305 --> 02:09.952\n我特别要强调我们派出去的专案管理人才就像以军总来讲并不只聚焦于兵科甚至是有关后勤补给采购他的专业这个钱不能省因为有月会有忌讳他要把所有的专案管理中间看到的瑕疵问题随时报回来必要的时候我们要请助长代表\n\n02:10.872 --> 02:37.486\n回国来做专案报告这个是要大家努力的因为这个过去我们都疏忽了军种在培养专案管理的人才数量上显然不足也就是随着国防的预算大幅成长的时候我们只看到的兵科军官我们就是飞行员的座舱比飞机的妥善率但是我们没有看到整个专案管理中这些驻场人其实花的是小钱\n\n02:38.286 --> 03:07.221\n如果你多两个人能够及时的把一些讯息或者跟美方沟通以及军事代表团相互沟通这种情况下我们三个军种都要做改进这个是现实问题不是谁不努力而是我们人才不足举一个例来讲就是国防大学的管理学院就专案管理理论上我们如果有一个重大的军事投资案其实可以委托国防大学\n\n03:08.061 --> 03:26.553\n开一个专案班哪怕是两个礼拜三个礼拜不涉及机密所有合约过程军售过程这个管理东西通通要在国防大学开班我就举个例来讲我们陆军的海马斯这个已经交货了\n\n03:28.139 --> 03:54.200\n甚至有人说提前交货专案管理里面只有准时交货提前不是好事提前你的库房人才备料都还没备变结果硬体来了提前交货不能延宕当然更不可那请问海马斯火箭它的数据化的这种指管系统现在在陆军战院请问教育长陆军战院有更新课程吗\n\n03:55.522 --> 04:02.327\n跟委員報告那個有關於國軍軍力同時建範開放作客開放作客這部分我們\n\n04:05.563 --> 04:24.790\n班隊名稱我們是開為軍事投資建案班區分為上下半年我們有各開訓一次訓習是4週週限對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主然後課程我們既有作業規定工業合作跟產能評估作業還有採購計畫編制作業\n\n04:27.093 --> 04:42.070\n跟三類二項有關跟委員所說的數據的這個部分這個我目前沒有掌握我回去會去跟我們的教官取一個最新的數據我覺得整個我們的國軍不管是任理事或者是\n\n04:43.271 --> 05:12.165\n这个所谓整平跟资源师这个对于国军新的专案出来要给国防大学做指导不是靠教官教官他根本没有在美国铸厂过他教什么东西尤其是合约军售的条款跟商售的条款这个要用过去参与过专案的人在那个地方大家整合起来来教这个课因为现在就说你案子成立了可是没有去铸厂以前你背景都不知道也不是有经验的\n\n05:12.785 --> 05:38.045\n那请问海马斯的这个全部数位化的系统啊我就问在陆院你教了课了没有请问你现在的UTM公元2000年的纸本你现在还在用它做演习那你这个教学不能够只参更新你回来这些毕业的人回到部队去他心后观念这个落差非常大了我一直在这个质询过程中强调所有的重点\n\n05:39.147 --> 05:57.066\n不是预算多少而是你有多少人才因为没有足够的人才对这些先进的装备完全因为我没有构想这个我希望国防大学跟这个联谊市长是这边共同努力赶快把他课程了不只是在管院\n\n05:58.092 --> 06:11.298\n三軍的子參學院對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後你都要交貨了你課程準則教範都來不及更新啊另外就是說這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用保養手冊\n\n06:12.523 --> 06:30.668\n原本是英文版的部隊第一批人派出去受訓他會他回來了兩年三年調差他也沒有回學校去繼續留下來教所以會產生一些落差那這個部分我們是希望大家在這個部分要強化要努力那這是第一個問題\n\n06:35.791 --> 06:47.908\n您有要反應嗎是包委員只是做技師的次長就如同委員所提示的其實每一件的武器裝備跟系統最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想\n\n06:48.809 --> 07:11.462\n能夠結合聯合作戰的需求能夠納入五年兵力整建計劃裡面逐年籌購並且按照計劃專案計劃的期程來去建構包含準則的建構並且納入到教則教範以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力這部分在我們的各項的計劃作業從採購計劃當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃這個向委員做說明\n\n07:18.322 --> 07:46.213\n好謝謝我們下面再一個問題就是因為在美台國防工業的時候就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造台灣之盾台灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統因為陸軍海軍空軍整個系統的指管裡面它的美方廠商跟中科院它的背景不同那這次台灣之盾是一個理想很重要但是有規劃其成嗎\n\n07:47.754 --> 08:07.959\n那知道什么时候完成吗还是把现有的武器系统全部做整合过去连山曾经讲过我们要怎么讲去中心化那是指地面部队我强调了如果你去中心化你这个盾就没有了就到处是漏洞了所以一定是一个完整的系统那这个系统啊\n\n08:09.232 --> 08:24.386\n是一個理想的那預計要多少年今天來講只是一個構想推出來那要三個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標最主要就是我們講到的這個人才在這個軍售裡面\n\n08:26.776 --> 08:40.890\n美方讲得很清楚不赚不赔不罚所以没有什么法律诉讼所有的问题是政府对政府而且他要求你不可以以军总代表去跟厂商谈细节那不可以的禁止的\n\n08:41.711 --> 09:09.556\n所有铸厂的问题他看到的问题他要回馈铸厂看到的问题他是跟工程师谈的话毫无作用因为每一个美国的厂他都有律师跟会计师你不可以逾越你的合约规范他的合约是他跟美国的合约然后美国的合约是根据我们的LOR签的细节所以这个部分我们希望大家把法条要搞清楚\n\n09:10.456 --> 09:39.580\n讲得很清楚那其他的我也希望这边让我们的立法院同仁了解美军收的是专案管理费用那我们不可以去查那虽然做专案review的时候我们有派人那对口是美军你不能跟厂商直接谈所以在这个过程里面你看到美军一个飞机申购作业流程哪个阶段他可以挡你哪个阶段通过但不代表拿到了出口许可\n\n09:40.680 --> 10:08.345\n你就一切照进度那特别要讲到商售问题因为商售问题碰到的是什么就是说供应链里面的只合约商被其他厂商并购了就产生延迟交货了专案管理人被换掉了这些东西都要有法律背景的专业跟采购后勤的人参与这种就不是我们兵科军官能够直接去参与的了这个部分我就强调还是在国防大学的教育\n\n10:09.554 --> 10:29.896\n以前在过去裁剪这个我们编装缘合之前过去军总都有五或四他是一个专案管理现在回到各计划处回到后勤处所以他又分开来了专案管理的人善在各地那到底是哪个长官负责全面了解这个我们需要在这个地方大家来努力\n\n10:32.813 --> 10:51.686\n潛艦也是一样因为它是商售请问如果一个15年的计划20年的计划它的出口许可是几年呢没有15年的出口许可请问如果是一个长期层的合约你跟厂商签的你的美金的汇率跟台币是用多少固定值呢\n\n10:52.926 --> 11:02.412\n15年到20年間的製造人力成本工時分攤這個都是要專案管理這個絕對不是兵科軍官一般可以了解的所以在這個裡面軍總的律師\n\n11:06.411 --> 11:29.535\n台湾不管是汉祥的或是台船的或是其他制造厂的律师以及产生问题后要产生仲裁到第三地区的律师这个团队我想部长是专家了在这个地方您要多给指导因为现在军总来讲大家看到都是很乐观的指数而不敢去面对那种法律上的挑战问题\n\n11:31.390 --> 11:59.819\n最後一個我特別再講這個是從漢光演習以來我們每天都面臨的沒有少過的那是今天早上八點半我請連山次長幫忙您看一下這問題賴總統說海巡署肩負防衛執法救援及國際合作多重工作是國安治安平安的第一道防驗就金門外島來講禁限制水域是金防部的責任還是海巡的責任\n\n12:02.672 --> 12:21.932\n包委員整體的這個整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃那當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁縣制水域當中一些狀況的應處那會整合運用包含海巡署包含我們防衛部的相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處\n\n12:23.773 --> 12:43.904\n我這樣解釋啊您講的是理念我現在告訴你這是今天早上八點半的十五條中共的商船在你的禁限制防衛部無法應處你好無作為愛國啊執法理念啊我尊重啊當初這個我們的這個政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談\n\n12:45.932 --> 13:11.161\n從頭到尾因為你在那邊沒有海軍的艦艇兵力你只有海巡的執法兵力今天早上15條商船在你的禁限制水域通過防衛司令部是無法反應請問這個圖你們有看到嗎今天早上的另外有10條商船在我們家的前院也好後院也好毛破他也不給停車費他幹嘛他排隊準備進廈門港\n\n13:13.254 --> 13:33.963\n比較麻煩的是有30條商船漁船我們看不到全部是把AS關掉的灰色的他全部停在這邊以這麼龐大的數字請問金房部有能力處理嗎海巡署如何處理這個是每天壓力越來越大部長您的看法\n\n13:35.070 --> 13:53.738\n跟委員報告我想國安部是就這個兩岸人民關係條29條去國安的立場我們劃設這個淨縣市水域那當然委員應該也能夠理解這個淨縣市水域因為金門過於靠近這個中國大陸的一個本土所以劃過淨縣市水域等於就是進入中國的領海這個部分\n\n13:54.298 --> 14:18.616\n那所以相關的這個29條我們劃設了之後呢我們就這個以這個不撐高衝突的委員的情況之下我們有海巡來做事法的一個質詢那當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照這個中國大陸的船舶他們進入的這個狀況來做事切的一個應酬\n\n14:19.937 --> 14:40.232\n这个部分我想海巡跟海军还是会相互扮演一个互为支援的一个角色我认同部长的说法了我把现况告诉你这个现在看到的现象远超过你的负荷理论上因为它不是我的领海它是境限制水域它没有办法享有无害通过但是\n\n14:41.240 --> 15:03.654\n他吃你豆腐他就從你家門口大概就在近的距離大概6000碼就在你旁邊經過另外就是下毛下毛有的時候停一天有時候停兩天現在用軟體全部可以監控得到事實上是不是每天早上中午前這個狀況都有回報到我們國防部或者你自己根本就可以掌握\n\n15:04.815 --> 15:21.602\n现在是因为这些不遵照法规的把AIS关闭的船的数量太多那我们的海巡远超负荷他不可能每条船去临检去驱逐那这个现象持续延续下去我们如何处置\n\n15:23.550 --> 15:41.741\n在這個金門這個水域上面我剛剛也有已經講到了就是說商船中國大陸的這個商船的部分進入淨線是水域我們看看他要對於我們的危害的一個程度我想我們做一個視線的映出這個是現實上我們必須要考量他對於我們的這個進入的這個\n\n15:44.643 --> 16:06.559\n程度到底是如何但是我們當然相關還是會做一些警告等等的那警告無效我們再試這個狀況的部分來再看決定要不要做進一步的一個升高的作為但是我想在這個金門的附近的水域的維持對海巡來講的確是一個非常辛苦的工作\n\n16:08.457 --> 16:32.598\n我想就是站在國防部跟海委會陸委會在這個部分要做溝通也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作未來來講是一個障礙我們不希望人家佔我們便宜站到你門口最主要一個嚴重問題當商船在這邊下錨\n\n16:35.455 --> 16:54.905\n他会排放污水也就是说他会把金门附近的水域都污染掉了那对金门的渔民来讲是不公平的那另外一个就是把AS关掉就代表他隐匿他的行踪你不知道他的门牌号码传集那这种情况下做对我们有\n\n16:56.206 --> 17:11.507\n這個反向滲透觀察那這種作為他是持續在做的那這個部分我希望國防部海委會以及陸委會大家在這個理念上要做溝通怎麼解套因為這個現象持續發生我每天都做\n\n17:12.188 --> 17:33.900\n早中晚都做我都在觀察所以每一次的時候我會問各位這是今天早上的那你如何應處那你不能講海委會現在海巡署在增加製造船若干年後增加多少條那是明天的事我們只講今天如何應處這個地方要大家努力關注這也是所謂的你的一個所謂的台灣防衛盾裡面的一個element\n\n17:34.620 --> 17:51.081\n今天質詢到這個地方是我想委員指教我們針對海域的執法會考慮到這個航運安全然後海洋漁業的資源漁民的權益跟還有軍事安全的這個部分來做一個比例的一個原則的世界應酬這樣子好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.874,"end":1.738,"text":"我們有請顧部長顧部長"},{"start":9.73,"end":35.638,"text":"是 陈伟部长早安今天特别聚焦在所有的军购商购因为延迟交货或产生一些其他问题当然今天看到国防部以及相关的同仁大家共同努力希望在这个中间能够尽量缩短延档的时期不过在专案管理部分有一些看法要请部长稍微注意一下我们也请空军参谋长"},{"start":41.603,"end":64.499,"text":"就是有关这个F6V Block 70当初签署发价书的时候美方有向我们表达要迁移生产线厂房要移置吗没有各位听到的只是生产线重新移开厂房换你知道从哪换到哪了"},{"start":68.602,"end":92.755,"text":"從德州換到南卡的格林維爾對 從德州的Fort Worth然後整個搬到南卡州的Greenvale那德州生產線是不是關掉不是 因為他還有其他的構型在身他把它做一個切割那這個在簽署發價書的時候因為沒有提所以產生的衝擊等於說美方沒有給我們一個預警時間"},{"start":94.096,"end":101.093,"text":"另外就是我們的駐場現在是派到什麼層級的人專案管理一位中校兩位少校"},{"start":102.305,"end":129.952,"text":"我特别要强调我们派出去的专案管理人才就像以军总来讲并不只聚焦于兵科甚至是有关后勤补给采购他的专业这个钱不能省因为有月会有忌讳他要把所有的专案管理中间看到的瑕疵问题随时报回来必要的时候我们要请助长代表"},{"start":130.872,"end":157.486,"text":"回国来做专案报告这个是要大家努力的因为这个过去我们都疏忽了军种在培养专案管理的人才数量上显然不足也就是随着国防的预算大幅成长的时候我们只看到的兵科军官我们就是飞行员的座舱比飞机的妥善率但是我们没有看到整个专案管理中这些驻场人其实花的是小钱"},{"start":158.286,"end":187.221,"text":"如果你多两个人能够及时的把一些讯息或者跟美方沟通以及军事代表团相互沟通这种情况下我们三个军种都要做改进这个是现实问题不是谁不努力而是我们人才不足举一个例来讲就是国防大学的管理学院就专案管理理论上我们如果有一个重大的军事投资案其实可以委托国防大学"},{"start":188.061,"end":206.553,"text":"开一个专案班哪怕是两个礼拜三个礼拜不涉及机密所有合约过程军售过程这个管理东西通通要在国防大学开班我就举个例来讲我们陆军的海马斯这个已经交货了"},{"start":208.139,"end":234.2,"text":"甚至有人说提前交货专案管理里面只有准时交货提前不是好事提前你的库房人才备料都还没备变结果硬体来了提前交货不能延宕当然更不可那请问海马斯火箭它的数据化的这种指管系统现在在陆军战院请问教育长陆军战院有更新课程吗"},{"start":235.522,"end":242.327,"text":"跟委員報告那個有關於國軍軍力同時建範開放作客開放作客這部分我們"},{"start":245.563,"end":264.79,"text":"班隊名稱我們是開為軍事投資建案班區分為上下半年我們有各開訓一次訓習是4週週限對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主然後課程我們既有作業規定工業合作跟產能評估作業還有採購計畫編制作業"},{"start":267.093,"end":282.07,"text":"跟三類二項有關跟委員所說的數據的這個部分這個我目前沒有掌握我回去會去跟我們的教官取一個最新的數據我覺得整個我們的國軍不管是任理事或者是"},{"start":283.271,"end":312.165,"text":"这个所谓整平跟资源师这个对于国军新的专案出来要给国防大学做指导不是靠教官教官他根本没有在美国铸厂过他教什么东西尤其是合约军售的条款跟商售的条款这个要用过去参与过专案的人在那个地方大家整合起来来教这个课因为现在就说你案子成立了可是没有去铸厂以前你背景都不知道也不是有经验的"},{"start":312.785,"end":338.045,"text":"那请问海马斯的这个全部数位化的系统啊我就问在陆院你教了课了没有请问你现在的UTM公元2000年的纸本你现在还在用它做演习那你这个教学不能够只参更新你回来这些毕业的人回到部队去他心后观念这个落差非常大了我一直在这个质询过程中强调所有的重点"},{"start":339.147,"end":357.066,"text":"不是预算多少而是你有多少人才因为没有足够的人才对这些先进的装备完全因为我没有构想这个我希望国防大学跟这个联谊市长是这边共同努力赶快把他课程了不只是在管院"},{"start":358.092,"end":371.298,"text":"三軍的子參學院對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後你都要交貨了你課程準則教範都來不及更新啊另外就是說這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用保養手冊"},{"start":372.523,"end":390.668,"text":"原本是英文版的部隊第一批人派出去受訓他會他回來了兩年三年調差他也沒有回學校去繼續留下來教所以會產生一些落差那這個部分我們是希望大家在這個部分要強化要努力那這是第一個問題"},{"start":395.791,"end":407.908,"text":"您有要反應嗎是 包委員只是做技師的次長就如同委員所提示的其實每一件的武器裝備跟系統最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想"},{"start":408.809,"end":431.462,"text":"能夠結合聯合作戰的需求能夠納入五年兵力整建計劃裡面逐年籌購並且按照計劃專案計劃的期程來去建構包含準則的建構並且納入到教則教範以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力這部分在我們的各項的計劃作業從採購計劃當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃這個向委員做說明"},{"start":438.322,"end":466.213,"text":"好 謝謝我們下面再一個問題就是因為在美台國防工業的時候就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造台灣之盾台灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統因為陸軍 海軍 空軍整個系統的指管裡面它的美方廠商跟中科院它的背景不同那這次台灣之盾是一個理想很重要但是有規劃其成嗎"},{"start":467.754,"end":487.959,"text":"那知道什么时候完成吗还是把现有的武器系统全部做整合过去连山曾经讲过我们要怎么讲去中心化那是指地面部队我强调了如果你去中心化你这个盾就没有了就到处是漏洞了所以一定是一个完整的系统那这个系统啊"},{"start":489.232,"end":504.386,"text":"是一個理想的那預計要多少年今天來講只是一個構想推出來那要三個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標最主要就是我們講到的這個人才在這個軍售裡面"},{"start":506.776,"end":520.89,"text":"美方讲得很清楚不赚不赔不罚所以没有什么法律诉讼所有的问题是政府对政府而且他要求你不可以以军总代表去跟厂商谈细节那不可以的禁止的"},{"start":521.711,"end":549.556,"text":"所有铸厂的问题他看到的问题他要回馈铸厂看到的问题他是跟工程师谈的话毫无作用因为每一个美国的厂他都有律师跟会计师你不可以逾越你的合约规范他的合约是他跟美国的合约然后美国的合约是根据我们的LOR签的细节所以这个部分我们希望大家把法条要搞清楚"},{"start":550.456,"end":579.58,"text":"讲得很清楚那其他的我也希望这边让我们的立法院同仁了解美军收的是专案管理费用那我们不可以去查那虽然做专案review的时候我们有派人那对口是美军你不能跟厂商直接谈所以在这个过程里面你看到美军一个飞机申购作业流程哪个阶段他可以挡你哪个阶段通过但不代表拿到了出口许可"},{"start":580.68,"end":608.345,"text":"你就一切照进度那特别要讲到商售问题因为商售问题碰到的是什么就是说供应链里面的只合约商被其他厂商并购了就产生延迟交货了专案管理人被换掉了这些东西都要有法律背景的专业跟采购后勤的人参与这种就不是我们兵科军官能够直接去参与的了这个部分我就强调还是在国防大学的教育"},{"start":609.554,"end":629.896,"text":"以前在过去裁剪这个我们编装缘合之前过去军总都有五或四他是一个专案管理现在回到各计划处回到后勤处所以他又分开来了专案管理的人善在各地那到底是哪个长官负责全面了解这个我们需要在这个地方大家来努力"},{"start":632.813,"end":651.686,"text":"潛艦也是一样因为它是商售请问如果一个15年的计划20年的计划它的出口许可是几年呢没有15年的出口许可请问如果是一个长期层的合约你跟厂商签的你的美金的汇率跟台币是用多少固定值呢"},{"start":652.926,"end":662.412,"text":"15年到20年間的製造人力成本工時分攤這個都是要專案管理這個絕對不是兵科軍官一般可以了解的所以在這個裡面軍總的律師"},{"start":666.411,"end":689.535,"text":"台湾不管是汉祥的或是台船的或是其他制造厂的律师以及产生问题后要产生仲裁到第三地区的律师这个团队我想部长是专家了在这个地方您要多给指导因为现在军总来讲大家看到都是很乐观的指数而不敢去面对那种法律上的挑战问题"},{"start":691.39,"end":719.819,"text":"最後一個我特別再講這個是從漢光演習以來我們每天都面臨的沒有少過的那是今天早上八點半我請連山次長幫忙您看一下這問題賴總統說海巡署肩負防衛執法救援及國際合作多重工作是國安治安平安的第一道防驗就金門外島來講禁限制水域是金防部的責任還是海巡的責任"},{"start":722.672,"end":741.932,"text":"包委員整體的這個整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃那當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁縣制水域當中一些狀況的應處那會整合運用包含海巡署包含我們防衛部的相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處"},{"start":743.773,"end":763.904,"text":"我這樣解釋啊您講的是理念我現在告訴你這是今天早上八點半的十五條中共的商船在你的禁限制防衛部無法應處你好無作為愛國啊執法理念啊我尊重啊當初這個我們的這個政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談"},{"start":765.932,"end":791.161,"text":"從頭到尾因為你在那邊沒有海軍的艦艇兵力你只有海巡的執法兵力今天早上15條商船在你的禁限制水域通過防衛司令部是無法反應請問這個圖你們有看到嗎今天早上的另外有10條商船在我們家的前院也好後院也好毛破他也不給停車費他幹嘛他排隊準備進廈門港"},{"start":793.254,"end":813.963,"text":"比較麻煩的是有30條商船漁船我們看不到全部是把AS關掉的灰色的他全部停在這邊以這麼龐大的數字請問金房部有能力處理嗎海巡署如何處理這個是每天壓力越來越大部長您的看法"},{"start":815.07,"end":833.738,"text":"跟委員報告我想國安部是就這個兩岸人民關係條29條去國安的立場我們劃設這個淨縣市水域那當然委員應該也能夠理解這個淨縣市水域因為金門過於靠近這個中國大陸的一個本土所以劃過淨縣市水域等於就是進入中國的領海這個部分"},{"start":834.298,"end":858.616,"text":"那所以相關的這個29條我們劃設了之後呢我們就這個以這個不撐高衝突的委員的情況之下我們有海巡來做事法的一個質詢那當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照這個中國大陸的船舶他們進入的這個狀況來做事切的一個應酬"},{"start":859.937,"end":880.232,"text":"这个部分我想海巡跟海军还是会相互扮演一个互为支援的一个角色我认同部长的说法了我把现况告诉你这个现在看到的现象远超过你的负荷理论上因为它不是我的领海它是境限制水域它没有办法享有无害通过但是"},{"start":881.24,"end":903.654,"text":"他吃你豆腐他就從你家門口大概就在近的距離大概6000碼就在你旁邊經過另外就是下毛下毛有的時候停一天有時候停兩天現在用軟體全部可以監控得到事實上是不是每天早上中午前這個狀況都有回報到我們國防部或者你自己根本就可以掌握"},{"start":904.815,"end":921.602,"text":"现在是因为这些不遵照法规的把AIS关闭的船的数量太多那我们的海巡远超负荷他不可能每条船去临检去驱逐那这个现象持续延续下去我们如何处置"},{"start":923.55,"end":941.741,"text":"在這個金門這個水域上面我剛剛也有已經講到了就是說商船中國大陸的這個商船的部分進入淨線是水域我們看看他要對於我們的危害的一個程度我想我們做一個視線的映出這個是現實上我們必須要考量他對於我們的這個進入的這個"},{"start":944.643,"end":966.559,"text":"程度到底是如何但是我們當然相關還是會做一些警告等等的那警告無效我們再試這個狀況的部分來再看決定要不要做進一步的一個升高的作為但是我想在這個金門的附近的水域的維持對海巡來講的確是一個非常辛苦的工作"},{"start":968.457,"end":992.598,"text":"我想就是站在國防部跟海委會陸委會在這個部分要做溝通也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作未來來講是一個障礙我們不希望人家佔我們便宜站到你門口最主要一個嚴重問題當商船在這邊下錨"},{"start":995.455,"end":1014.905,"text":"他会排放污水也就是说他会把金门附近的水域都污染掉了那对金门的渔民来讲是不公平的那另外一个就是把AS关掉就代表他隐匿他的行踪你不知道他的门牌号码传集那这种情况下做对我们有"},{"start":1016.206,"end":1031.507,"text":"這個反向滲透觀察那這種作為他是持續在做的那這個部分我希望國防部海委會以及陸委會大家在這個理念上要做溝通怎麼解套因為這個現象持續發生我每天都做"},{"start":1032.188,"end":1053.9,"text":"早中晚都做我都在觀察所以每一次的時候我會問各位這是今天早上的那你如何應處那你不能講海委會現在海巡署在增加製造船若干年後增加多少條那是明天的事我們只講今天如何應處這個地方要大家努力關注這也是所謂的你的一個所謂的台灣防衛盾裡面的一個element"},{"start":1054.62,"end":1071.081,"text":"今天質詢到這個地方是我想委員指教我們針對海域的執法會考慮到這個航運安全然後海洋漁業的資源漁民的權益跟還有軍事安全的這個部分來做一個比例的一個原則的世界應酬這樣子好謝謝謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":207,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時45分）主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長早安。今天特別聚焦在所有的軍購、商購，因為延遲交貨或產生一些其他問題，當然今天看到國防部以及相關的同仁，大家共同努力，希望在這中間能夠儘量縮短延宕的時程。不過在專案管理部分，我有一些看法要請部長稍微注意一下，也請空軍參謀長上來。","有關「F-16V Block 70」當初簽署發價書的時候，美方有向我們表達要遷移生產線、廠房要移置嗎？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，沒有。"],["陳委員永康：各位聽到的只是生產線重新移開、換廠房，你知不知道從哪換到哪？"],["李參謀長慶然：從德州換到南卡的格林維爾。"],["陳委員永康：對，整個從德州的Fort Worth搬到南卡州的Greenville。"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["陳委員永康：德州生產線是不是關掉？不是，因為他還有其他的構型在生產，他把它做一個切割。這在簽署發價書的時候，因為沒有提，所以產生的衝擊，等於美方沒有給我們一個預警時間；另外，現在你們的駐廠代表是派到什麼層級的人在作專案管理？"],["李參謀長慶然：一位中校，兩位少校。"],["陳委員永康：我特別要強調，我們派出去的專案管理人才，就以軍種來講，並不只聚焦於兵科，甚至是有關後勤補給、採購，他的專業很重要，這個錢不能省，因為有月會、有季會，他要把所有專案管理過程中，所看到的瑕疵問題隨時作回報，必要的時候，我們要請駐廠代表回國做專案報告，這個是要大家努力的。因為這過去我們都疏忽了，軍種在培養專案管理人才的數量上顯然不足，也就是隨著國防預算大幅成長的時候，我們只看到兵科軍官的飛行員座艙比及飛機妥善率，但是我們沒有看到整個專案管理中，這些駐廠人員其實花的是小錢，如果你多兩個人能夠及時地把一些訊息，或者跟美方溝通，以及軍事代表團相互溝通，在這種情況下，我們三個軍種都要改進，這個是現實問題，不是誰不努力，而是我們人才不足。","舉例來講，國防大學的管理學院就專案管理，理論上，我們如果有一個重大的軍事投資案，其實可以委託國防大學開一個專案班，哪怕是兩個禮拜、三個禮拜，在不涉及機密下，把所有合約過程、軍售過程等管理項目通通要在國防大學開班。我舉個例來講，我們陸軍的海馬士多管火箭系統已經交貨了，甚至有人說提前交貨，專案管理裡只有準時交貨，提前不是好事，可能你的庫房、人才、備料都還沒備便，結果硬體就來了，提前交貨不能，延宕當然更不允許，請問海馬士火箭數據化的指管系統，請問教育長，現在在陸軍戰院有更新課程嗎？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，有關國軍軍事投資建案開放授課的部分，這班隊名稱為軍事投資建案班，區分為上、下半年，我們有各開訓一次，訓期是四週，授課對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主。然後課程，我們計有作業規定、工業合作跟產能評估作業，還有採購計畫編製作業等三類二項。有關於剛剛委員所說的數據部分，這個我目前沒有掌握，回去後會跟我們教官取得一個最新的數據。"],["陳委員永康：我覺得我們整個國軍，不管是人力司或者是所謂整評跟資源司，對於國軍新的專案出來，要給國防大學做指導，不是靠教官，教官他根本沒有在美國駐廠過，他教什麼東西啊？尤其是合約、軍售的條款跟商售的條款，這個要用過去參與過專案的人，在那個地方大家整合起來來教這個課，因為現在就是說你案子成立了，可是沒有去駐廠以前，你都不知道背景，也不是有經驗，關於海馬士全部數位化的系統，請問你們在陸院教課了沒有？請問，現在的UTM公元2000年的紙本，你現在還在用它做演習，那你這個教學不能夠指參更新，這些畢業的人回到部隊去，前後觀念落差非常大。我一直在質詢過程中強調，所有的重點不是預算多少，而是你有多少人才，因為沒有足夠的人才，對這些先進的裝備完全運用沒有構想，我希望國防大學跟聯一次長室這邊共同努力，趕快把它的課程，不只是在管院、三軍的指參學院，對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後，都要交貨了，但你的課程、準則教範都來不及更新啊！","另外，這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用、保養手冊原本是英文版，部隊第一批人派出去受訓，他會，他回來了，兩年、三年調差，他沒有回學校繼續留下來教，所以會產生一些落差，我們希望大家在這個部分要強化、要努力，這是第一個問題。您有要回應嗎？"],["連次長志威：是，報告委員，我是作計室次長。就如同委員所提示的，其實每一件武器裝備跟系統，最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想，能夠結合聯合作戰的需求，能夠納入5年兵力整建計畫裡面逐年籌購，並且按照計畫、專案計畫的期程來去建構，包含準則的建構，並且納入到教則、教範，以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練，才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力，這部分在我們的各項計畫作業，從採購計畫當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃，向委員做說明。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝。再提一個問題，在美臺國防工業會議的時候，就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造臺灣之盾。臺灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統？因為陸軍、海軍、空軍整個系統的指管裡面，它的美方廠商跟中科院，它背景不同，這次臺灣之盾是一個理想，很重要，但是有規劃期程嗎？知道什麼時候完成嗎？還是把現有的武器系統全部做整合？過去聯三曾經講過我們要去中心化，那是指地面部隊，我要強調，如果你去中心化，你這個盾就沒有了，就到處是漏洞了，所以一定是一個完整的系統，這個系統是一個理想的，那預計要多少年？今天只是一個構想推出來，要3個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標，最主要就是我們講到的人才，在軍售裡面，美方講得很清楚，不賺、不賠、不罰，所以沒有什麼法律訴訟，所有的問題是政府對政府，而且它要求你不可以以軍種代表去跟廠商談細節，這是不可以的、是禁止的，所以有駐廠的問題，他看到的問題他要回饋，而駐廠看到的問題，他跟工程師談的話是毫無作用的，因為每一個美國的廠都有律師跟會計師，你不可以逾越你的合約規範，他的合約是他跟美國的合約，然後美國的合約是根據我們的LOR簽的細節，所以這個部分我們希望大家把法條搞清楚，講得很清楚，其他的我也希望讓我們的立法院同仁了解，軍售美軍收的是專案管理費用，我們不可以去查，雖然做專案review的時候我們有派人，對口是美軍，你不能跟廠商直接談，所以在這個過程裡面，你看到美軍一個飛機申購作業流程，哪個階段它可以擋你、哪個階段通過，但不代表拿到了出口許可就會一切照進度。特別要講到商售問題，因為商售問題碰到的是什麼？就是說供應鏈裡面的子合約商被其他廠商併購了，就產生延遲交貨，專案管理人被換掉了，這些東西都要有法律背景的專業跟採購後勤的人參與，這種就不是我們兵科軍官能夠直接去參與的，這個部分我要強調，還是在國防大學的教育。","以前、在過去採檢，我們編裝員額之前、過去軍種都有武獲室，它是一個專案管理，現在回到各計畫處、回到後勤處，所以它又分開來了，專案管理的人散在各地，到底是哪個長官負責全面了解？這個地方需要大家來努力。其實潛艦也是一樣，因為它是商售。請問，如果一個15年的計畫、20年的計畫，它的出口許可是幾年呢？沒有15年的出口許可。請問，如果是一個長期程的合約，你跟廠商簽的，你的美金的匯率跟臺幣是用多少固定值？15年到20年間的製造人力成本、工時分攤，這個都是要專案管理，這個絕對不是一般兵科軍官可以了解的。所以在這個裡面軍種的律師，臺灣不管是漢翔的或是台船的，或是其他製造廠的律師，以及產生問題後要產生仲裁到第三地區的律師，關於這個團隊，我想部長是專家，您在這個地方要多給指導，因為現在軍種來講，大家看到都是很樂觀的指數，而不敢去面對那種法律上的挑戰問題。","最後我特別再講，這個是從漢光演習以來我們每天都在面臨的、沒有少過的，這是今天早上八點半的圖，我請聯三次長來幫忙，您看一下這個問題。賴總統說，海巡署肩負防衛、執法、救援及國際合作多重工作，是國安、治安、平安的第一道防線。就金門外島來講，禁限制水域是金防部的責任還是海巡的責任？"],["連次長志威：報告委員，整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃，當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁限制水域當中一些狀況的應處，那會整合運用包含海巡署、包含我們防衛部相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處。"],["陳委員永康：我這樣解釋，您講的是理念，我現在告訴你，這是今天早上八點半的圖，有15條中共的商船在你的禁限制水域，防衛部無法應處，你毫無作為！愛國、執法、理念，我尊重，當初我們的政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談，從頭到尾因為你在那邊沒有海軍的艦艇兵力，只有海巡的執法兵力，今天早上有15條商船在你的禁限制水域通過，防衛司令部是無法反應，請問這個圖你們有看到嗎？這是今天早上的圖。另外，有10條商船在我們家的前院也好，後院也好錨泊，他也不給停車費啊！他要幹嘛？他要排隊準備進廈門港，比較麻煩的是有30條商船、漁船我們看不到，全部是把AIS關掉、灰色的，全部停在這邊，對於這麼龐大的數字，請問金防部有能力處理嗎？海巡署如何處理？這個是每天壓力越來越大，部長您的看法為何？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想國防部是就兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條，基於國安的立場我們劃設禁限制水域，當然委員應該也能夠理解，關於禁限制水域，因為金門過於靠近中國大陸本土，所以跨過禁限制水域等於就是進入中國的領海，所以依相關的第二十九條我們劃設了之後，我們就以不升高衝突為原則，由海巡來做適法的執行。當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照中國大陸的船舶他們進入的狀況來做適切的應處，這個部分我想海巡跟海軍還是會相互扮演一個互為支援的角色。"],["陳委員永康：我認同部長的說法。我把現況告訴你，現在看到的現象遠超過你的負荷。理論上因為它不是我的領海，它是禁限制水域，沒有辦法享有無害通過，但是他吃你豆腐，就從你家門口，近的距離大概6,000碼，就在你旁邊經過，另外就是下錨，下錨了有的時候停一天，有時候停兩天。現在用軟體全部可以監控得到，事實上是不是每天早上、中午前，這個狀況都有回報到國防部呢？或者你自己根本就可以掌握！現在是因為這些不遵照法規的，把AIS關閉的船數量太多，我們的海巡遠超負荷，不可能每條船去臨檢、去驅逐，這個現象持續延續下去，我們如何處置？"],["顧部長立雄：在金門這個水域上面，我剛剛已經講到了，就是說中國大陸的商船進入禁限制水域，我們要看看它對於我們的危害程度來做一個適切的應處，這個是現實上我們必須要考量，它對我們進入的程度到底是如何，但是當然相關的還是會予以做一些警告等等，警告無效我們再視狀況再決定要不要做進一步升高的作為。但是我想在金門附近水域的維持，對海巡來講，的確是一個非常辛苦的工作。"],["陳委員永康：我想國防部跟海委會、陸委會在這個部分要溝通，也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸，讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作，未來來講是一個障礙，我們不希望人家占我們便宜占到門口。最主要一個嚴重問題，當商船在這邊下錨，它會排放污水，也就是說，它會把金門附近的水域都污染掉了，對金門的漁民來講是不公平的；另外一個就是把AIS關掉就代表它隱匿它的行蹤，你不知道它的門牌號碼、船籍，這種情況下對我們做反向、滲透、觀察，這種作為是持續在做的。這個部分我希望國防部、海委會以及陸委會，大家在這個理念上要溝通，怎麼解套？因為這個現象持續發生，我每天都做，早、中、晚都做、都在觀察，所以每一次我會問各位，這是今天早上的，你如何應處？你不能說海委會海巡署在增加製造船，若干年後會增加多少條，那是明天的事，我們只講今天如何應處，這個地方要大家努力關注，這也是你所謂的臺灣防衛盾裡面的一個element，今天質詢到這個地步，我們希望……"],["顧部長立雄：是，我想委員的指教，我們針對海域的執法，會考慮到航運安全、海洋漁業的資源、漁民的權益，還有軍事安全的部分，來做一個比例原則的適切應處。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：接下來是馬文君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}