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0.833}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"趕\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1094.997, \"end\": 1095.097, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1095.097, \"end\": 1095.117, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1095.117, \"end\": 1095.217, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1095.217, \"end\": 1095.317, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 1095.317, \"end\": 1095.357, \"score\": 0.005}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1095.357, \"end\": 1095.377, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1095.377, \"end\": 1095.477, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1095.477, \"end\": 1095.497, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1095.497, \"end\": 1095.557, \"score\": 0.252}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1095.557, \"end\": 1095.577, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 1095.577, \"end\": 1095.698, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1095.698, \"end\": 1095.718, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,370 --> 00:00:01,413\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長\n\n2\n00:00:09,289 --> 00:00:29,967\n部長早部長剛剛其實有說到就是說我們對美軍購的部分這個有延宕這個不是隨便說說在去年中央社發布的新聞裡面美國眾議院老虎小組向眾院外委會有遞交一份報告指出美國軍售交付延遲情況嚴重\n\n3\n00:00:32,329 --> 00:00:49,317\n光是台灣就有19項未完成的武器採購總而達到220億美元部分可能延到2027年交付甚至部分是沒有交貨日期的這是美國中醫院外國軍事銷售老虎小組\n\n4\n00:00:50,097 --> 00:01:14,553\n他所做的一個報告我想這個是非常明確的所以今天剛剛聽到有一些在那裡做的那個說明我是覺得有點避重就輕而且是非常離譜我們先談一些就是近期我們有看到這個陸軍裝甲旅跟機部旅實施陸聖一號的部分那我們看到他在那個陸上他整個他的那個\n\n5\n00:01:18,891 --> 00:01:24,695\n零件他就可能噴飛出去那這個部分有是什麼狀況有掌握了嗎調查報告\n\n6\n00:01:28,879 --> 00:01:53,691\n向委員報告這個案這個第一個這個發生這樣的事故之後單位是除了先協助傷患送醫之外沒關係我們簡單就好了噴飛的零件是什麼有一些是這個履帶零件裡面的固定固定他承載人的中央導齒那他就是因過因為一個長距離的行駛導致他的鬆脫\n\n7\n00:01:55,704 --> 00:02:04,149\n確實有這樣的情況我們看到圖片這裡有一個零件它是一般民眾在家裡面使用的那個腳帖\n\n8\n00:02:05,905 --> 00:02:20,775\n報告委員這個我有下去做了解那這個跟我們戰車上面所屬的零件目前研判不是應該是這個鏡頭裡面在現場的原本的物件你有掌握狀況嗎有這是從我們車上掉下來這個這個這是從我們車上掉下來的對不對我跟單位查證不是不是這有\n\n9\n00:02:30,121 --> 00:02:35,208\n車上履帶有掉下來零件但是不包含這個東西目前掌握是這樣\n\n10\n00:02:36,929 --> 00:02:40,551\n沒有後照鏡我們戰車原本是沒有後照鏡沒有沒有可是我們在過程當中我們加裝上去因為其實在道路的系統上面其實它整個狀況可能是比較複雜的所以有些車子裝上了這個參謀長回去再了解一下因為我們不是要指責因為在台灣的道路上面我們戰車加載在民車當中\n\n11\n00:03:02,724 --> 00:03:27,879\n這可能是有一定的風險而且我們道路不是那麼大可是如果你調查以後這個結果跟我們掌握的不一樣那我們的調查是有問題的回去掌握以後我們下次再討論這個你這個腳帖是不是從我們上面掉下來的那個行車記錄器或者那個錄影其實大概都會有你去查清楚以後再回答那另外我們看到\n\n12\n00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:42,575\n剛剛應該參謀長是說不是沒關係因為我們掌握的是就是說這個部分可能再查查清楚我們現在要說的是如果你需要加裝因為戰車上一般是不需要那你要加裝\n\n13\n00:03:43,376 --> 00:03:49,301\n它如果說反光會不會對我們的戰術作為有所影響因為它會造成反光所以一般戰車它可能沒有加裝這些可是如果是在我們現有的交通環境底下它可能需要的時候你就必須把它做好不是你想要裝什麼就裝什麼你必須要綠定如果它是需要的\n\n14\n00:04:04,935 --> 00:04:07,436\n你所有的車那你要裝就都裝應該怎麼裝就要把它裝好那你自己想裝就裝那個有的有有的沒有那個對我們整個尤其是我們的主戰裝備做這樣的一個隨意的這個調整或是自己改裝這個都是很嚴重的問題這個部分你們再查清楚\n\n15\n00:04:28,747 --> 00:04:36,379\n那如果有就做一個適切的一個規範如果有需要那你就應該要綠定那如果沒有\n\n16\n00:04:38,629 --> 00:05:03,974\n為什麼會我是簡單向您報告一下過去的確在戰車出去裝與不裝這方面有過做過一個研討那位戰車本身車框就已經達到3.6米多那如果再交到後視鏡其實反而更容易招致跟人家機車或是其他車輛的這個事故那基本上我們都是藉由車長在他車長位置的提示那委員的\n\n17\n00:05:04,594 --> 00:05:08,495\n您的剛才的指導是說實質上如果真的需要還是要去研討那這個部分我是就這次我們的操演和過去我們已經研究過相關的議題沒關係那提供調查報告時間的關係你把這一次如果不是因為這個那是什麼其他的原因那他為什麼會噴飛那就把調查報告提供給我們委員會另外我們在偽商服裝供售站的這個部分部長不曉得有沒有了解他這一次因為過去\n\n18\n00:05:33,743 --> 00:05:48,720\n我們就是因為希望有一個改變過去國軍服裝定期定向定量的公補模式因為有時候大家可能缺襪子有時候可能缺內衣有些人缺的是不一樣的可是我們採取定期定向定量\n\n19\n00:05:49,921 --> 00:05:53,703\n當他有些可能鞋子穿得破破爛爛可是他鞋子還沒有撥補發了一堆的襪子可能他也穿不了所以我們希望是做這樣的改變可是我們看到在整個服裝供售站的部分他在從開始推動到現在其實他發生過很多包括我們國軍可能有不同的\n\n20\n00:06:12,374 --> 00:06:26,687\n有很多不滿的一個問題好像顯然也沒有去做改善我想先今天先了解一下我們在年度契約裡面以前我們是開口契約嘛他才採購多少就計價多計價就按他實際的那個採購數量算對不對那這一次我們給廠商有保障價格是嗎\n\n21\n00:06:34,363 --> 00:06:46,865\n報告這個在這個所訂定年度7月80%他這個基本上是為了鼓勵廠商參標的意願但是我們沒有訂這個的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎\n\n22\n00:06:48,837 --> 00:06:51,978\n你之前沒有訂的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎為什麼要保障80%這個會產生兩個問題第一個就是徐喬欣委員之前說的他的毛巾價格非常高我們在外面可能2020塊30塊都可以買到過去也是可是你定價居然入軍高達110\n\n23\n00:07:11,227 --> 00:07:37,453\n你變成你的定價很高因為你要保障他的價格他點數在年底必須把它用完如果你用不完的時候你就去買其他很貴的東西不然就是買很多不必要的東西這不是我們設計這些這個服裝供售站的重要的目的我們不是要土地廠商我們也不是要保障廠商可以獲利而是要顧及我們所有國軍弟兄他在需求需要的時候他可以立即可以得到他需要的\n\n24\n00:07:39,153 --> 00:07:57,940\n所以為什麼要保障百分之八十你為什麼不是七十為什麼不是六十為什麼是八十我向您報告這個契約訂定保障百分之八十這個是在三軍的服裝供售站我剛才有向您報告就是為了讓廠商有參標的意願你沒有訂的時候沒有人來投標嗎\n\n25\n00:07:59,361 --> 00:08:15,937\n都有所以為什麼要保障80%這是我們覺得合約裡面非常不合理的地方因為你保障了廠商的價格可是你們有要求他必須在所有國軍弟兄因為很多人都說當我需要服裝應該要什麼size或者需要鞋子的時候\n\n26\n00:08:16,778 --> 00:08:39,466\n我卻買不到包委員也要容我向您報告有罰則嗎官兵的這個9860的點數我們主要的沒有有沒有罰則啦你現在有他的保障你有沒有罰則包委員我們沒有要求他年度內一定要把這9860支用完畢他主要是依據他的福祉條例還有整個他的補充上的需要不用把它花完嗎沒有強制年體沒有歸零嗎沒有沒有強制沒有強制要求那過去為什麼都有\n\n27\n00:08:43,287 --> 00:08:52,809\n那只是為了保障官兵權益會去單位去做一個提醒去做一個了解那你過去就是這樣子啊所有官兵都是認為這樣子啊所以在年底的時候他會把它用完那個過去一直都是這樣我現在講的是你保障了商人的權利以後你有沒有罰則比如說他沒有提供當我需要的時候我一直訂不到我要我要Msize的服裝可是我一直訂不到你有沒有罰則\n\n28\n00:09:12,335 --> 00:09:19,358\n我也好我是國防財務室主任有沒有罰則每個契約都有定罰則什麼樣的罰則這個部分有什麼樣的罰則它是用扣點數扣點數達到30點那就比如扣10萬就是不同的情形扣10萬你每年保障它10億以上它這個標的價格大概66億它連標5年你都不知道它好不好你已經給它做5年5年你還保障它每年80%\n\n29\n00:09:38,027 --> 00:09:41,828\n的獲利那這一個部分你甚至沒有罰則你剛剛說罰則是點數點數才10萬大家可以再去想看看我們之前為什麼說像潛艦或者其他的完全沒有罰則這個部分我們要求你們再去做檢討因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法在這裡你保障保障廠商保障非常的好\n\n30\n00:10:00,413 --> 00:10:04,656\n可是你對官兵的保障你的罰則卻沒有而且不倫不類這個部分你檢討以後再提供我們更詳細的報告另外我們要看到的是剛剛有提到要我補充一下所有的罰款是累加的他是依據不同的這個違約的情形是累加我剛剛講說他舉例他累加多少他可以解約你告訴我累加多少可以解約\n\n31\n00:10:26,850 --> 00:10:32,812\n這個每個月都有累加多少可以解約用簡單的讓大家知道的比如說要累加到多少點數他就會被解約這個我們可以跟委員報告你現在沒有嗎你保障80都有那我們一直在強調的你為什麼延宕你為什麼沒有辦法保障我們國軍所有的福利或者我們國防部應該有的福利你們現在都已經標出去了你現在這個回答不出來\n\n32\n00:10:56,533 --> 00:10:59,000\n在什麼樣的情況之下他必須被解約\n\n33\n00:11:02,674 --> 00:11:14,257\n回去那回去以後把這個查就是你們說明清楚然後如果這是不合宜的合約部長是專業的我們請部長看過以後這個如果有問題這個甚至有些人來報告的是什麼人是從我們軍中退出去的以前是監管的人員他現在可以代表廠商可以出面來做報告這個部分不需要查嗎\n\n34\n00:11:29,941 --> 00:11:36,523\n然後你保障的是廠商的他的福利跟利益然後我們所有國軍的應該有的一個保障卻講不出來這個部分我們要求回去以後把它更詳細今天我們看到這個報告是非常非常可惡而且不尊重我們立法院你總共才六月我們要的詳細的資訊其實都沒有六月你到昨天禮拜天下午一點才用電子傳過這些檔案\n\n35\n00:11:58,590 --> 00:12:01,332\n這上個禮拜就訂的題目我們沒有辦法做更周全的準備像你們剛剛提供的給委員如果是錯誤的資訊那我們完全沒有辦法去做比較比如說剛剛講到軍博館軍博館從17億到32億到46億到54億這個中間他除了他的量體變大是17億變32億那一段因為他從原來的兩棟然後變成比較大的量體那個已經把金額增加了\n\n36\n00:12:28,348 --> 00:12:33,269\n可是你後來又變成46億後來46億裡面其實我們當初都有去看過也做過簡報都跟我們之前的委員因為現在都是新的有些可能不知道他之前去看的時候他就是已經連內部的裝潢應該有的全部都有了有些我們有意見的我們有疑慮的你們還幫他們說的說明的非常非常清楚我們都我現在比較質疑的是為什麼都幫廠商講話\n\n37\n00:12:56,576 --> 00:12:59,778\n我們今天為什麼說延宕這個部分很清楚剛剛講的內容是錯的他的引改基金照理說引改基金根本也不應該做這個然後你後面增加的公務預算內裝的部分也是後來加進去的8億才後來又加裝公務預算這個本來103年他從110年核定以後到112年要完工後來變成到114年\n\n38\n00:13:21,494 --> 00:13:24,898\n因為114年他們又發生問題我們只發了300萬又給他8000萬而且還延了300多天到115年才讓他完工然後我們說他的進度超前這叫超前嗎你已經幫他往後延了然後他現在按照這樣的工進你說他是超前\n\n39\n00:13:42,058 --> 00:14:01,179\n這是嚴重侮辱我們立法院還有我們今天其實很多剛剛提到的包括我們的海昆或者我們剛剛我們有講到那個是眾議院裡面老虎小組提出來的報告他欠我們中華民國就是有220億美元這不是外面隨便說說的\n\n40\n00:14:03,191 --> 00:14:05,072\n我們現在提出來只有三項我們的魚叉飛彈呢魚叉飛彈當初要建案的時候是用戰備急需建案的本來是5年的期程現在變成10年剛剛聽到報告的時候好像變成12年了你到121年才會完成\n\n41\n00:14:21,698 --> 00:14:28,544\n我想要請教一下今天如果你要參加婚禮你自己是新郎官你下個月要舉辦婚禮本來你訂的西裝應該是下個月要到結果他跟你說下下個月才會給你那你婚禮就過啦\n\n42\n00:14:38,976 --> 00:14:42,117\n我們現在不是說我們現在很緊張嗎剛剛說F16、80、2024年還有保加利亞2025年他們都比我們晚簽約可是他們都比我們早拿到他們已經接莊了我們到現在都還沒有拿到我們不是去檢討我們應該有的作為而是一直不斷的不管是廠商國內的廠商也好或者包括對美的軍事採購我們都在幫他找理由\n\n43\n00:15:05,282 --> 00:15:06,564\n而且還說進度正常你通通把他往後延當然進度正常我剛剛說的他的西裝下個月要給你\n\n44\n00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:20,174\n那是因為他跟你訂的騎乘你已經把他往後拉了這樣已經過了婚禮我們要的是什麼我們今天你們在要預算的時候都說非常的急迫這個都是有戰備急需可是當他落後的時候我們找各種理由幫所有的廠商去解套而且還不斷的付錢他除了減項減量加錢不然就是幫他延期\n\n45\n00:15:40,091 --> 00:15:42,812\n我們看到就這樣可是我們在報告裡面完全沒有看到這些資料我們要的是具體的資料我們要的是國防部可以真正去改變我們為什麼會發生這樣的情況而且比其他的單位都還要高花的錢比人家多做的比人家慢做的比人家差\n\n46\n00:16:00,058 --> 00:16:10,150\n這是應該的嗎我們今天要開這個會的目的是希望真正可以落實真的找出問題點而不是我們現在都說進度正常我看到每一件都進度正常那他們美國眾議院為什麼要說他們延宕他們自己都說延宕了我們說他進度正常\n\n47\n00:16:20,993 --> 00:16:25,476\n事件的關係如果我們沒有辦法提供這些都是延宕的照理說我們都有原來都有資料我們國防部的資料是最齊全的你從什麼時候建案什麼時候開始然後應該要什麼時候結案這中間發生什麼樣的過程你有什麼樣的調整其實我們都有很好的記錄\n\n48\n00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:47,171\n如果我們沒有辦法提供那我們禮拜三就再辦一次你的時間如果準備不夠你沒有辦法提供足夠的這樣的資訊給本委員會我覺得我們應該要慎重的去關心這一件因為我們的國防預算不斷在增加如果我們包括管理的人才都不足剛剛陳委員講到的如果我們管理人才都不足你三千億六千億預算的時候都沒有辦法做好那你憑什麼九千億甚至超過一兆的時候我們可以做好\n\n49\n00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:18,743\n這個部分這都是人民的納稅錢所以我們希望我們好好的去正視這個問題怎麼樣去改變他應該有的應處作為好不好包委員我們簡單的回應一下有關於美國眾議院去年的那個12項這12項裡面\n\n50\n00:17:29,660 --> 00:17:43,639\n拖42B型飛彈已經全數交裝標槍也交裝海馬仕也已經全部交裝M1A2T也已經即將最後一批明年第二季的時候28輛就會到那你就把它列清楚嘛所以因為\n\n51\n00:17:43,899 --> 00:17:46,122\n你今天都可以在這裡講你為什麼你的報告裡面不把它寫清楚當初眾議院他說的220億美金他延宕的部分你把它列出來然後哪些交裝這樣大家清清楚楚不是很好嗎你今天你在這裡講我們沒有辦法事先知道啊所以我們在準備的時候我們要怎麼問\n\n52\n00:18:02,743 --> 00:18:15,718\n報告員對不起因為我們原本收到的指示是說要去檢討目前落後的案項來檢討後面怎麼樣改進那因為沒有理解到您這一段有關於相關的資料已經趕上進度那再補充好不好那再補充好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n370\t1413\t謝謝主席 麻煩請部長\n9289\t29967\t部長早部長剛剛其實有說到就是說我們對美軍購的部分這個有延宕這個不是隨便說說在去年中央社發布的新聞裡面美國眾議院老虎小組向眾院外委會有遞交一份報告指出美國軍售交付延遲情況嚴重\n32329\t49317\t光是台灣就有19項未完成的武器採購總而達到220億美元部分可能延到2027年交付甚至部分是沒有交貨日期的這是美國中醫院外國軍事銷售老虎小組\n50097\t74553\t他所做的一個報告我想這個是非常明確的所以今天剛剛聽到有一些在那裡做的那個說明我是覺得有點避重就輕而且是非常離譜我們先談一些就是近期我們有看到這個陸軍裝甲旅跟機部旅實施陸聖一號的部分那我們看到他在那個陸上他整個他的那個\n78891\t84695\t零件他就可能噴飛出去那這個部分有是什麼狀況有掌握了嗎 調查報告\n88879\t113691\t向委員報告這個案這個第一個這個發生這樣的事故之後單位是除了先協助傷患送醫之外沒關係我們簡單就好了噴飛的零件是什麼有一些是這個履帶零件裡面的固定固定他承載人的中央導齒那他就是因過因為一個長距離的行駛導致他的鬆脫\n115704\t124149\t確實有這樣的情況我們看到圖片這裡有一個零件它是一般民眾在家裡面使用的那個腳帖\n125905\t140775\t報告委員這個我有下去做了解那這個跟我們戰車上面所屬的零件目前研判不是應該是這個鏡頭裡面在現場的原本的物件你有掌握狀況嗎有這是從我們車上掉下來這個這個這是從我們車上掉下來的對不對我跟單位查證不是不是這有\n150121\t155208\t車上履帶有掉下來零件但是不包含這個東西目前掌握是這樣\n156929\t160551\t沒有後照鏡我們戰車原本是沒有後照鏡沒有沒有可是我們在過程當中我們加裝上去因為其實在道路的系統上面其實它整個狀況可能是比較複雜的所以有些車子裝上了這個參謀長回去再了解一下因為我們不是要指責因為在台灣的道路上面我們戰車加載在民車當中\n182724\t207879\t這可能是有一定的風險而且我們道路不是那麼大可是如果你調查以後這個結果跟我們掌握的不一樣那我們的調查是有問題的回去掌握以後我們下次再討論這個你這個腳帖是不是從我們上面掉下來的那個行車記錄器或者那個錄影其實大概都會有你去查清楚以後再回答那另外我們看到\n209160\t222575\t剛剛應該參謀長是說不是沒關係 因為我們掌握的是就是說這個部分可能再查查清楚我們現在要說的是如果你需要加裝因為戰車上一般是不需要那你要加裝\n223376\t229301\t它如果說反光會不會對我們的戰術作為有所影響因為它會造成反光所以一般戰車它可能沒有加裝這些可是如果是在我們現有的交通環境底下它可能需要的時候你就必須把它做好不是你想要裝什麼就裝什麼你必須要綠定如果它是需要的\n244935\t247436\t你所有的車那你要裝就都裝應該怎麼裝就要把它裝好那你自己想裝就裝 那個有的有 有的沒有那個對我們整個尤其是我們的主戰裝備做這樣的一個隨意的這個調整或是自己改裝這個都是很嚴重的問題這個部分你們再查清楚\n268747\t276379\t那如果有就做一個適切的一個規範如果有需要那你就應該要綠定那如果沒有\n278629\t303974\t為什麼會我是簡單向您報告一下過去的確在戰車出去裝與不裝這方面有過做過一個研討那位戰車本身車框就已經達到3.6米多那如果再交到後視鏡其實反而更容易招致跟人家機車或是其他車輛的這個事故那基本上我們都是藉由車長在他車長位置的提示那委員的\n304594\t308495\t您的剛才的指導是說實質上如果真的需要還是要去研討那這個部分我是就這次我們的操演和過去我們已經研究過相關的議題沒關係那提供調查報告時間的關係你把這一次如果不是因為這個那是什麼其他的原因那他為什麼會噴飛那就把調查報告提供給我們委員會另外我們在偽商服裝供售站的這個部分部長不曉得有沒有了解他這一次因為過去\n333743\t348720\t我們就是因為希望有一個改變過去國軍服裝定期定向定量的公補模式因為有時候大家可能缺襪子有時候可能缺內衣有些人缺的是不一樣的可是我們採取定期定向定量\n349921\t353703\t當他有些可能鞋子穿得破破爛爛可是他鞋子還沒有撥補發了一堆的襪子可能他也穿不了所以我們希望是做這樣的改變可是我們看到在整個服裝供售站的部分他在從開始推動到現在其實他發生過很多包括我們國軍可能有不同的\n372374\t386687\t有很多不滿的一個問題好像顯然也沒有去做改善我想先今天先了解一下我們在年度契約裡面以前我們是開口契約嘛他才採購多少就計價多計價就按他實際的那個採購數量算對不對那這一次我們給廠商有保障價格是嗎\n394363\t406865\t報告這個在這個所訂定年度7月80%他這個基本上是為了鼓勵廠商參標的意願但是我們沒有訂這個的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎\n408837\t411978\t你之前沒有訂的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎為什麼要保障80%這個會產生兩個問題第一個就是徐喬欣委員之前說的他的毛巾價格非常高我們在外面可能2020塊30塊都可以買到過去也是可是你定價居然入軍高達110\n431227\t457453\t你變成你的定價很高因為你要保障他的價格他點數在年底必須把它用完如果你用不完的時候你就去買其他很貴的東西不然就是買很多不必要的東西這不是我們設計這些這個服裝供售站的重要的目的我們不是要土地廠商我們也不是要保障廠商可以獲利而是要顧及我們所有國軍弟兄他在需求需要的時候他可以立即可以得到他需要的\n459153\t477940\t所以為什麼要保障百分之八十你為什麼不是七十為什麼不是六十為什麼是八十我向您報告這個契約訂定保障百分之八十這個是在三軍的服裝供售站我剛才有向您報告就是為了讓廠商有參標的意願你沒有訂的時候沒有人來投標嗎\n479361\t495937\t都有所以為什麼要保障80%這是我們覺得合約裡面非常不合理的地方因為你保障了廠商的價格可是你們有要求他必須在所有國軍弟兄因為很多人都說當我需要服裝應該要什麼size或者需要鞋子的時候\n496778\t519466\t我卻買不到 包委員也要容我向您報告有罰則嗎 官兵的這個9860的點數我們主要的 沒有 有沒有罰則啦你現在有他的保障 你有沒有罰則包委員 我們沒有要求他年度內一定要把這9860支用完畢他主要是依據他的福祉條例還有整個他的補充上的需要 不用把它花完嗎沒有強制 年體沒有歸零嗎 沒有沒有強制 沒有強制要求 那過去為什麼都有\n523287\t532809\t那只是為了保障官兵權益會去單位去做一個提醒去做一個了解那你過去就是這樣子啊所有官兵都是認為這樣子啊所以在年底的時候他會把它用完那個過去一直都是這樣我現在講的是你保障了商人的權利以後你有沒有罰則比如說他沒有提供當我需要的時候我一直訂不到我要我要Msize的服裝可是我一直訂不到你有沒有罰則\n552335\t559358\t我也好 我是國防財務室主任有沒有罰則 每個契約都有定罰則什麼樣的罰則 這個部分有什麼樣的罰則它是用扣點數 扣點數達到30點那就比如扣10萬 就是不同的情形扣10萬 你每年保障它10億以上它這個標的價格大概66億它連標5年 你都不知道它好不好你已經給它做5年 5年你還保障它每年80%\n578027\t581828\t的獲利那這一個部分你甚至沒有罰則你剛剛說罰則是點數點數才10萬大家可以再去想看看我們之前為什麼說像潛艦或者其他的完全沒有罰則這個部分我們要求你們再去做檢討因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法在這裡你保障保障廠商保障非常的好\n600413\t604656\t可是你對官兵的保障你的罰則卻沒有而且不倫不類這個部分你檢討以後再提供我們更詳細的報告另外我們要看到的是剛剛有提到要我補充一下所有的罰款是累加的他是依據不同的這個違約的情形是累加我剛剛講說他舉例他累加多少他可以解約你告訴我累加多少可以解約\n626850\t632812\t這個每個月都有 累加多少可以解約用簡單的讓大家知道的比如說要累加到多少點數他就會被解約這個我們可以跟委員報告你現在沒有嗎你保障80都有那我們一直在強調的你為什麼延宕你為什麼沒有辦法保障我們國軍所有的福利或者我們國防部應該有的福利你們現在都已經標出去了你現在這個回答不出來\n656533\t659000\t在什麼樣的情況之下他必須被解約\n662674\t674257\t回去那回去以後把這個查就是你們說明清楚然後如果這是不合宜的合約部長是專業的我們請部長看過以後這個如果有問題這個甚至有些人來報告的是什麼人是從我們軍中退出去的以前是監管的人員他現在可以代表廠商可以出面來做報告這個部分不需要查嗎\n689941\t696523\t然後你保障的是廠商的他的福利跟利益然後我們所有國軍的應該有的一個保障卻講不出來這個部分我們要求回去以後把它更詳細今天我們看到這個報告是非常非常可惡而且不尊重我們立法院你總共才六月我們要的詳細的資訊其實都沒有六月你到昨天禮拜天下午一點才用電子傳過這些檔案\n718590\t721332\t這上個禮拜就訂的題目我們沒有辦法做更周全的準備像你們剛剛提供的給委員如果是錯誤的資訊那我們完全沒有辦法去做比較比如說剛剛講到軍博館軍博館從17億到32億到46億到54億這個中間他除了他的量體變大是17億變32億那一段因為他從原來的兩棟然後變成比較大的量體那個已經把金額增加了\n748348\t753269\t可是你後來又變成46億後來46億裡面其實我們當初都有去看過也做過簡報都跟我們之前的委員因為現在都是新的有些可能不知道他之前去看的時候他就是已經連內部的裝潢應該有的全部都有了有些我們有意見的我們有疑慮的你們還幫他們說的說明的非常非常清楚我們都我現在比較質疑的是為什麼都幫廠商講話\n776576\t779778\t我們今天為什麼說延宕這個部分很清楚剛剛講的內容是錯的他的引改基金照理說引改基金根本也不應該做這個然後你後面增加的公務預算內裝的部分也是後來加進去的8億才後來又加裝公務預算這個本來103年他從110年核定以後到112年要完工後來變成到114年\n801494\t804898\t因為114年他們又發生問題我們只發了300萬又給他8000萬而且還延了300多天到115年才讓他完工然後我們說他的進度超前這叫超前嗎你已經幫他往後延了然後他現在按照這樣的工進你說他是超前\n822058\t841179\t這是嚴重侮辱我們立法院還有我們今天其實很多剛剛提到的包括我們的海昆或者我們剛剛我們有講到那個是眾議院裡面老虎小組提出來的報告他欠我們中華民國就是有220億美元這不是外面隨便說說的\n843191\t845072\t我們現在提出來只有三項我們的魚叉飛彈呢魚叉飛彈當初要建案的時候是用戰備急需建案的本來是5年的期程現在變成10年剛剛聽到報告的時候好像變成12年了你到121年才會完成\n861698\t868544\t我想要請教一下今天如果你要參加婚禮你自己是新郎官你下個月要舉辦婚禮本來你訂的西裝應該是下個月要到結果他跟你說下下個月才會給你那你婚禮就過啦\n878976\t882117\t我們現在不是說我們現在很緊張嗎剛剛說F16、80、2024年還有保加利亞2025年他們都比我們晚簽約可是他們都比我們早拿到他們已經接莊了我們到現在都還沒有拿到我們不是去檢討我們應該有的作為而是一直不斷的不管是廠商國內的廠商也好或者包括對美的軍事採購我們都在幫他找理由\n905282\t906564\t而且還說進度正常你通通把他往後延當然進度正常我剛剛說的他的西裝下個月要給你\n915270\t920174\t那是因為他跟你訂的騎乘你已經把他往後拉了這樣已經過了婚禮我們要的是什麼我們今天你們在要預算的時候都說非常的急迫這個都是有戰備急需可是當他落後的時候我們找各種理由幫所有的廠商去解套而且還不斷的付錢他除了減項減量加錢不然就是幫他延期\n940091\t942812\t我們看到就這樣可是我們在報告裡面完全沒有看到這些資料我們要的是具體的資料我們要的是國防部可以真正去改變我們為什麼會發生這樣的情況而且比其他的單位都還要高花的錢比人家多做的比人家慢做的比人家差\n960058\t970150\t這是應該的嗎我們今天要開這個會的目的是希望真正可以落實真的找出問題點而不是我們現在都說進度正常我看到每一件都進度正常那他們美國眾議院為什麼要說他們延宕他們自己都說延宕了我們說他進度正常\n980993\t985476\t事件的關係如果我們沒有辦法提供這些都是延宕的照理說我們都有原來都有資料我們國防部的資料是最齊全的你從什麼時候建案什麼時候開始然後應該要什麼時候結案這中間發生什麼樣的過程你有什麼樣的調整其實我們都有很好的記錄\n1002069\t1007171\t如果我們沒有辦法提供 那我們禮拜三就再辦一次你的時間如果準備不夠你沒有辦法提供足夠的這樣的資訊給本委員會我覺得我們應該要慎重的去關心這一件因為我們的國防預算不斷在增加如果我們包括管理的人才都不足剛剛陳委員講到的如果我們管理人才都不足你三千億 六千億預算的時候都沒有辦法做好那你憑什麼九千億甚至超過一兆的時候我們可以做好\n1030960\t1038743\t這個部分這都是人民的納稅錢所以我們希望我們好好的去正視這個問題怎麼樣去改變他應該有的應處作為好不好包委員我們簡單的回應一下有關於美國眾議院去年的那個12項這12項裡面\n1049660\t1063639\t拖42B型飛彈已經全數交裝標槍也交裝海馬仕也已經全部交裝M1A2T也已經即將最後一批明年第二季的時候28輛就會到那你就把它列清楚嘛所以因為\n1063899\t1066122\t你今天都可以在這裡講你為什麼你的報告裡面不把它寫清楚當初眾議院他說的220億美金他延宕的部分你把它列出來然後哪些交裝這樣大家清清楚楚不是很好嗎你今天你在這裡講我們沒有辦法事先知道啊所以我們在準備的時候我們要怎麼問\n1082743\t1095718\t報告員 對不起 因為我們原本收到的指示是說要去檢討目前落後的案項來檢討後面怎麼樣改進那因為沒有理解到您這一段有關於相關的資料已經趕上進度 那再補充好不好 那再補充 好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長\n部長早部長剛剛其實有說到就是說我們對美軍購的部分這個有延宕這個不是隨便說說在去年中央社發布的新聞裡面美國眾議院老虎小組向眾院外委會有遞交一份報告指出美國軍售交付延遲情況嚴重\n光是台灣就有19項未完成的武器採購總而達到220億美元部分可能延到2027年交付甚至部分是沒有交貨日期的這是美國中醫院外國軍事銷售老虎小組\n他所做的一個報告我想這個是非常明確的所以今天剛剛聽到有一些在那裡做的那個說明我是覺得有點避重就輕而且是非常離譜我們先談一些就是近期我們有看到這個陸軍裝甲旅跟機部旅實施陸聖一號的部分那我們看到他在那個陸上他整個他的那個\n零件他就可能噴飛出去那這個部分有是什麼狀況有掌握了嗎 調查報告\n向委員報告這個案這個第一個這個發生這樣的事故之後單位是除了先協助傷患送醫之外沒關係我們簡單就好了噴飛的零件是什麼有一些是這個履帶零件裡面的固定固定他承載人的中央導齒那他就是因過因為一個長距離的行駛導致他的鬆脫\n確實有這樣的情況我們看到圖片這裡有一個零件它是一般民眾在家裡面使用的那個腳帖\n報告委員這個我有下去做了解那這個跟我們戰車上面所屬的零件目前研判不是應該是這個鏡頭裡面在現場的原本的物件你有掌握狀況嗎有這是從我們車上掉下來這個這個這是從我們車上掉下來的對不對我跟單位查證不是不是這有\n車上履帶有掉下來零件但是不包含這個東西目前掌握是這樣\n沒有後照鏡我們戰車原本是沒有後照鏡沒有沒有可是我們在過程當中我們加裝上去因為其實在道路的系統上面其實它整個狀況可能是比較複雜的所以有些車子裝上了這個參謀長回去再了解一下因為我們不是要指責因為在台灣的道路上面我們戰車加載在民車當中\n這可能是有一定的風險而且我們道路不是那麼大可是如果你調查以後這個結果跟我們掌握的不一樣那我們的調查是有問題的回去掌握以後我們下次再討論這個你這個腳帖是不是從我們上面掉下來的那個行車記錄器或者那個錄影其實大概都會有你去查清楚以後再回答那另外我們看到\n剛剛應該參謀長是說不是沒關係 因為我們掌握的是就是說這個部分可能再查查清楚我們現在要說的是如果你需要加裝因為戰車上一般是不需要那你要加裝\n它如果說反光會不會對我們的戰術作為有所影響因為它會造成反光所以一般戰車它可能沒有加裝這些可是如果是在我們現有的交通環境底下它可能需要的時候你就必須把它做好不是你想要裝什麼就裝什麼你必須要綠定如果它是需要的\n你所有的車那你要裝就都裝應該怎麼裝就要把它裝好那你自己想裝就裝 那個有的有 有的沒有那個對我們整個尤其是我們的主戰裝備做這樣的一個隨意的這個調整或是自己改裝這個都是很嚴重的問題這個部分你們再查清楚\n那如果有就做一個適切的一個規範如果有需要那你就應該要綠定那如果沒有\n為什麼會我是簡單向您報告一下過去的確在戰車出去裝與不裝這方面有過做過一個研討那位戰車本身車框就已經達到3.6米多那如果再交到後視鏡其實反而更容易招致跟人家機車或是其他車輛的這個事故那基本上我們都是藉由車長在他車長位置的提示那委員的\n您的剛才的指導是說實質上如果真的需要還是要去研討那這個部分我是就這次我們的操演和過去我們已經研究過相關的議題沒關係那提供調查報告時間的關係你把這一次如果不是因為這個那是什麼其他的原因那他為什麼會噴飛那就把調查報告提供給我們委員會另外我們在偽商服裝供售站的這個部分部長不曉得有沒有了解他這一次因為過去\n我們就是因為希望有一個改變過去國軍服裝定期定向定量的公補模式因為有時候大家可能缺襪子有時候可能缺內衣有些人缺的是不一樣的可是我們採取定期定向定量\n當他有些可能鞋子穿得破破爛爛可是他鞋子還沒有撥補發了一堆的襪子可能他也穿不了所以我們希望是做這樣的改變可是我們看到在整個服裝供售站的部分他在從開始推動到現在其實他發生過很多包括我們國軍可能有不同的\n有很多不滿的一個問題好像顯然也沒有去做改善我想先今天先了解一下我們在年度契約裡面以前我們是開口契約嘛他才採購多少就計價多計價就按他實際的那個採購數量算對不對那這一次我們給廠商有保障價格是嗎\n報告這個在這個所訂定年度7月80%他這個基本上是為了鼓勵廠商參標的意願但是我們沒有訂這個的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎\n你之前沒有訂的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎為什麼要保障80%這個會產生兩個問題第一個就是徐喬欣委員之前說的他的毛巾價格非常高我們在外面可能2020塊30塊都可以買到過去也是可是你定價居然入軍高達110\n你變成你的定價很高因為你要保障他的價格他點數在年底必須把它用完如果你用不完的時候你就去買其他很貴的東西不然就是買很多不必要的東西這不是我們設計這些這個服裝供售站的重要的目的我們不是要土地廠商我們也不是要保障廠商可以獲利而是要顧及我們所有國軍弟兄他在需求需要的時候他可以立即可以得到他需要的\n所以為什麼要保障百分之八十你為什麼不是七十為什麼不是六十為什麼是八十我向您報告這個契約訂定保障百分之八十這個是在三軍的服裝供售站我剛才有向您報告就是為了讓廠商有參標的意願你沒有訂的時候沒有人來投標嗎\n都有所以為什麼要保障80%這是我們覺得合約裡面非常不合理的地方因為你保障了廠商的價格可是你們有要求他必須在所有國軍弟兄因為很多人都說當我需要服裝應該要什麼size或者需要鞋子的時候\n我卻買不到 包委員也要容我向您報告有罰則嗎 官兵的這個9860的點數我們主要的 沒有 有沒有罰則啦你現在有他的保障 你有沒有罰則包委員 我們沒有要求他年度內一定要把這9860支用完畢他主要是依據他的福祉條例還有整個他的補充上的需要 不用把它花完嗎沒有強制 年體沒有歸零嗎 沒有沒有強制 沒有強制要求 那過去為什麼都有\n那只是為了保障官兵權益會去單位去做一個提醒去做一個了解那你過去就是這樣子啊所有官兵都是認為這樣子啊所以在年底的時候他會把它用完那個過去一直都是這樣我現在講的是你保障了商人的權利以後你有沒有罰則比如說他沒有提供當我需要的時候我一直訂不到我要我要Msize的服裝可是我一直訂不到你有沒有罰則\n我也好 我是國防財務室主任有沒有罰則 每個契約都有定罰則什麼樣的罰則 這個部分有什麼樣的罰則它是用扣點數 扣點數達到30點那就比如扣10萬 就是不同的情形扣10萬 你每年保障它10億以上它這個標的價格大概66億它連標5年 你都不知道它好不好你已經給它做5年 5年你還保障它每年80%\n的獲利那這一個部分你甚至沒有罰則你剛剛說罰則是點數點數才10萬大家可以再去想看看我們之前為什麼說像潛艦或者其他的完全沒有罰則這個部分我們要求你們再去做檢討因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法在這裡你保障保障廠商保障非常的好\n可是你對官兵的保障你的罰則卻沒有而且不倫不類這個部分你檢討以後再提供我們更詳細的報告另外我們要看到的是剛剛有提到要我補充一下所有的罰款是累加的他是依據不同的這個違約的情形是累加我剛剛講說他舉例他累加多少他可以解約你告訴我累加多少可以解約\n這個每個月都有 累加多少可以解約用簡單的讓大家知道的比如說要累加到多少點數他就會被解約這個我們可以跟委員報告你現在沒有嗎你保障80都有那我們一直在強調的你為什麼延宕你為什麼沒有辦法保障我們國軍所有的福利或者我們國防部應該有的福利你們現在都已經標出去了你現在這個回答不出來\n在什麼樣的情況之下他必須被解約\n回去那回去以後把這個查就是你們說明清楚然後如果這是不合宜的合約部長是專業的我們請部長看過以後這個如果有問題這個甚至有些人來報告的是什麼人是從我們軍中退出去的以前是監管的人員他現在可以代表廠商可以出面來做報告這個部分不需要查嗎\n然後你保障的是廠商的他的福利跟利益然後我們所有國軍的應該有的一個保障卻講不出來這個部分我們要求回去以後把它更詳細今天我們看到這個報告是非常非常可惡而且不尊重我們立法院你總共才六月我們要的詳細的資訊其實都沒有六月你到昨天禮拜天下午一點才用電子傳過這些檔案\n這上個禮拜就訂的題目我們沒有辦法做更周全的準備像你們剛剛提供的給委員如果是錯誤的資訊那我們完全沒有辦法去做比較比如說剛剛講到軍博館軍博館從17億到32億到46億到54億這個中間他除了他的量體變大是17億變32億那一段因為他從原來的兩棟然後變成比較大的量體那個已經把金額增加了\n可是你後來又變成46億後來46億裡面其實我們當初都有去看過也做過簡報都跟我們之前的委員因為現在都是新的有些可能不知道他之前去看的時候他就是已經連內部的裝潢應該有的全部都有了有些我們有意見的我們有疑慮的你們還幫他們說的說明的非常非常清楚我們都我現在比較質疑的是為什麼都幫廠商講話\n我們今天為什麼說延宕這個部分很清楚剛剛講的內容是錯的他的引改基金照理說引改基金根本也不應該做這個然後你後面增加的公務預算內裝的部分也是後來加進去的8億才後來又加裝公務預算這個本來103年他從110年核定以後到112年要完工後來變成到114年\n因為114年他們又發生問題我們只發了300萬又給他8000萬而且還延了300多天到115年才讓他完工然後我們說他的進度超前這叫超前嗎你已經幫他往後延了然後他現在按照這樣的工進你說他是超前\n這是嚴重侮辱我們立法院還有我們今天其實很多剛剛提到的包括我們的海昆或者我們剛剛我們有講到那個是眾議院裡面老虎小組提出來的報告他欠我們中華民國就是有220億美元這不是外面隨便說說的\n我們現在提出來只有三項我們的魚叉飛彈呢魚叉飛彈當初要建案的時候是用戰備急需建案的本來是5年的期程現在變成10年剛剛聽到報告的時候好像變成12年了你到121年才會完成\n我想要請教一下今天如果你要參加婚禮你自己是新郎官你下個月要舉辦婚禮本來你訂的西裝應該是下個月要到結果他跟你說下下個月才會給你那你婚禮就過啦\n我們現在不是說我們現在很緊張嗎剛剛說F16、80、2024年還有保加利亞2025年他們都比我們晚簽約可是他們都比我們早拿到他們已經接莊了我們到現在都還沒有拿到我們不是去檢討我們應該有的作為而是一直不斷的不管是廠商國內的廠商也好或者包括對美的軍事採購我們都在幫他找理由\n而且還說進度正常你通通把他往後延當然進度正常我剛剛說的他的西裝下個月要給你\n那是因為他跟你訂的騎乘你已經把他往後拉了這樣已經過了婚禮我們要的是什麼我們今天你們在要預算的時候都說非常的急迫這個都是有戰備急需可是當他落後的時候我們找各種理由幫所有的廠商去解套而且還不斷的付錢他除了減項減量加錢不然就是幫他延期\n我們看到就這樣可是我們在報告裡面完全沒有看到這些資料我們要的是具體的資料我們要的是國防部可以真正去改變我們為什麼會發生這樣的情況而且比其他的單位都還要高花的錢比人家多做的比人家慢做的比人家差\n這是應該的嗎我們今天要開這個會的目的是希望真正可以落實真的找出問題點而不是我們現在都說進度正常我看到每一件都進度正常那他們美國眾議院為什麼要說他們延宕他們自己都說延宕了我們說他進度正常\n事件的關係如果我們沒有辦法提供這些都是延宕的照理說我們都有原來都有資料我們國防部的資料是最齊全的你從什麼時候建案什麼時候開始然後應該要什麼時候結案這中間發生什麼樣的過程你有什麼樣的調整其實我們都有很好的記錄\n如果我們沒有辦法提供 那我們禮拜三就再辦一次你的時間如果準備不夠你沒有辦法提供足夠的這樣的資訊給本委員會我覺得我們應該要慎重的去關心這一件因為我們的國防預算不斷在增加如果我們包括管理的人才都不足剛剛陳委員講到的如果我們管理人才都不足你三千億 六千億預算的時候都沒有辦法做好那你憑什麼九千億甚至超過一兆的時候我們可以做好\n這個部分這都是人民的納稅錢所以我們希望我們好好的去正視這個問題怎麼樣去改變他應該有的應處作為好不好包委員我們簡單的回應一下有關於美國眾議院去年的那個12項這12項裡面\n拖42B型飛彈已經全數交裝標槍也交裝海馬仕也已經全部交裝M1A2T也已經即將最後一批明年第二季的時候28輛就會到那你就把它列清楚嘛所以因為\n你今天都可以在這裡講你為什麼你的報告裡面不把它寫清楚當初眾議院他說的220億美金他延宕的部分你把它列出來然後哪些交裝這樣大家清清楚楚不是很好嗎你今天你在這裡講我們沒有辦法事先知道啊所以我們在準備的時候我們要怎麼問\n報告員 對不起 因為我們原本收到的指示是說要去檢討目前落後的案項來檢討後面怎麼樣改進那因為沒有理解到您這一段有關於相關的資料已經趕上進度 那再補充好不好 那再補充 好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.370 --> 00:01.413\n謝謝主席麻煩請部長\n\n00:09.289 --> 00:29.967\n部長早部長剛剛其實有說到就是說我們對美軍購的部分這個有延宕這個不是隨便說說在去年中央社發布的新聞裡面美國眾議院老虎小組向眾院外委會有遞交一份報告指出美國軍售交付延遲情況嚴重\n\n00:32.329 --> 00:49.317\n光是台灣就有19項未完成的武器採購總而達到220億美元部分可能延到2027年交付甚至部分是沒有交貨日期的這是美國中醫院外國軍事銷售老虎小組\n\n00:50.097 --> 01:14.553\n他所做的一個報告我想這個是非常明確的所以今天剛剛聽到有一些在那裡做的那個說明我是覺得有點避重就輕而且是非常離譜我們先談一些就是近期我們有看到這個陸軍裝甲旅跟機部旅實施陸聖一號的部分那我們看到他在那個陸上他整個他的那個\n\n01:18.891 --> 01:24.695\n零件他就可能噴飛出去那這個部分有是什麼狀況有掌握了嗎調查報告\n\n01:28.879 --> 01:53.691\n向委員報告這個案這個第一個這個發生這樣的事故之後單位是除了先協助傷患送醫之外沒關係我們簡單就好了噴飛的零件是什麼有一些是這個履帶零件裡面的固定固定他承載人的中央導齒那他就是因過因為一個長距離的行駛導致他的鬆脫\n\n01:55.704 --> 02:04.149\n確實有這樣的情況我們看到圖片這裡有一個零件它是一般民眾在家裡面使用的那個腳帖\n\n02:05.905 --> 02:20.775\n報告委員這個我有下去做了解那這個跟我們戰車上面所屬的零件目前研判不是應該是這個鏡頭裡面在現場的原本的物件你有掌握狀況嗎有這是從我們車上掉下來這個這個這是從我們車上掉下來的對不對我跟單位查證不是不是這有\n\n02:30.121 --> 02:35.208\n車上履帶有掉下來零件但是不包含這個東西目前掌握是這樣\n\n02:36.929 --> 02:40.551\n沒有後照鏡我們戰車原本是沒有後照鏡沒有沒有可是我們在過程當中我們加裝上去因為其實在道路的系統上面其實它整個狀況可能是比較複雜的所以有些車子裝上了這個參謀長回去再了解一下因為我們不是要指責因為在台灣的道路上面我們戰車加載在民車當中\n\n03:02.724 --> 03:27.879\n這可能是有一定的風險而且我們道路不是那麼大可是如果你調查以後這個結果跟我們掌握的不一樣那我們的調查是有問題的回去掌握以後我們下次再討論這個你這個腳帖是不是從我們上面掉下來的那個行車記錄器或者那個錄影其實大概都會有你去查清楚以後再回答那另外我們看到\n\n03:29.160 --> 03:42.575\n剛剛應該參謀長是說不是沒關係因為我們掌握的是就是說這個部分可能再查查清楚我們現在要說的是如果你需要加裝因為戰車上一般是不需要那你要加裝\n\n03:43.376 --> 03:49.301\n它如果說反光會不會對我們的戰術作為有所影響因為它會造成反光所以一般戰車它可能沒有加裝這些可是如果是在我們現有的交通環境底下它可能需要的時候你就必須把它做好不是你想要裝什麼就裝什麼你必須要綠定如果它是需要的\n\n04:04.935 --> 04:07.436\n你所有的車那你要裝就都裝應該怎麼裝就要把它裝好那你自己想裝就裝那個有的有有的沒有那個對我們整個尤其是我們的主戰裝備做這樣的一個隨意的這個調整或是自己改裝這個都是很嚴重的問題這個部分你們再查清楚\n\n04:28.747 --> 04:36.379\n那如果有就做一個適切的一個規範如果有需要那你就應該要綠定那如果沒有\n\n04:38.629 --> 05:03.974\n為什麼會我是簡單向您報告一下過去的確在戰車出去裝與不裝這方面有過做過一個研討那位戰車本身車框就已經達到3.6米多那如果再交到後視鏡其實反而更容易招致跟人家機車或是其他車輛的這個事故那基本上我們都是藉由車長在他車長位置的提示那委員的\n\n05:04.594 --> 05:08.495\n您的剛才的指導是說實質上如果真的需要還是要去研討那這個部分我是就這次我們的操演和過去我們已經研究過相關的議題沒關係那提供調查報告時間的關係你把這一次如果不是因為這個那是什麼其他的原因那他為什麼會噴飛那就把調查報告提供給我們委員會另外我們在偽商服裝供售站的這個部分部長不曉得有沒有了解他這一次因為過去\n\n05:33.743 --> 05:48.720\n我們就是因為希望有一個改變過去國軍服裝定期定向定量的公補模式因為有時候大家可能缺襪子有時候可能缺內衣有些人缺的是不一樣的可是我們採取定期定向定量\n\n05:49.921 --> 05:53.703\n當他有些可能鞋子穿得破破爛爛可是他鞋子還沒有撥補發了一堆的襪子可能他也穿不了所以我們希望是做這樣的改變可是我們看到在整個服裝供售站的部分他在從開始推動到現在其實他發生過很多包括我們國軍可能有不同的\n\n06:12.374 --> 06:26.687\n有很多不滿的一個問題好像顯然也沒有去做改善我想先今天先了解一下我們在年度契約裡面以前我們是開口契約嘛他才採購多少就計價多計價就按他實際的那個採購數量算對不對那這一次我們給廠商有保障價格是嗎\n\n06:34.363 --> 06:46.865\n報告這個在這個所訂定年度7月80%他這個基本上是為了鼓勵廠商參標的意願但是我們沒有訂這個的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎\n\n06:48.837 --> 06:51.978\n你之前沒有訂的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎為什麼要保障80%這個會產生兩個問題第一個就是徐喬欣委員之前說的他的毛巾價格非常高我們在外面可能2020塊30塊都可以買到過去也是可是你定價居然入軍高達110\n\n07:11.227 --> 07:37.453\n你變成你的定價很高因為你要保障他的價格他點數在年底必須把它用完如果你用不完的時候你就去買其他很貴的東西不然就是買很多不必要的東西這不是我們設計這些這個服裝供售站的重要的目的我們不是要土地廠商我們也不是要保障廠商可以獲利而是要顧及我們所有國軍弟兄他在需求需要的時候他可以立即可以得到他需要的\n\n07:39.153 --> 07:57.940\n所以為什麼要保障百分之八十你為什麼不是七十為什麼不是六十為什麼是八十我向您報告這個契約訂定保障百分之八十這個是在三軍的服裝供售站我剛才有向您報告就是為了讓廠商有參標的意願你沒有訂的時候沒有人來投標嗎\n\n07:59.361 --> 08:15.937\n都有所以為什麼要保障80%這是我們覺得合約裡面非常不合理的地方因為你保障了廠商的價格可是你們有要求他必須在所有國軍弟兄因為很多人都說當我需要服裝應該要什麼size或者需要鞋子的時候\n\n08:16.778 --> 08:39.466\n我卻買不到包委員也要容我向您報告有罰則嗎官兵的這個9860的點數我們主要的沒有有沒有罰則啦你現在有他的保障你有沒有罰則包委員我們沒有要求他年度內一定要把這9860支用完畢他主要是依據他的福祉條例還有整個他的補充上的需要不用把它花完嗎沒有強制年體沒有歸零嗎沒有沒有強制沒有強制要求那過去為什麼都有\n\n08:43.287 --> 08:52.809\n那只是為了保障官兵權益會去單位去做一個提醒去做一個了解那你過去就是這樣子啊所有官兵都是認為這樣子啊所以在年底的時候他會把它用完那個過去一直都是這樣我現在講的是你保障了商人的權利以後你有沒有罰則比如說他沒有提供當我需要的時候我一直訂不到我要我要Msize的服裝可是我一直訂不到你有沒有罰則\n\n09:12.335 --> 09:19.358\n我也好我是國防財務室主任有沒有罰則每個契約都有定罰則什麼樣的罰則這個部分有什麼樣的罰則它是用扣點數扣點數達到30點那就比如扣10萬就是不同的情形扣10萬你每年保障它10億以上它這個標的價格大概66億它連標5年你都不知道它好不好你已經給它做5年5年你還保障它每年80%\n\n09:38.027 --> 09:41.828\n的獲利那這一個部分你甚至沒有罰則你剛剛說罰則是點數點數才10萬大家可以再去想看看我們之前為什麼說像潛艦或者其他的完全沒有罰則這個部分我們要求你們再去做檢討因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法在這裡你保障保障廠商保障非常的好\n\n10:00.413 --> 10:04.656\n可是你對官兵的保障你的罰則卻沒有而且不倫不類這個部分你檢討以後再提供我們更詳細的報告另外我們要看到的是剛剛有提到要我補充一下所有的罰款是累加的他是依據不同的這個違約的情形是累加我剛剛講說他舉例他累加多少他可以解約你告訴我累加多少可以解約\n\n10:26.850 --> 10:32.812\n這個每個月都有累加多少可以解約用簡單的讓大家知道的比如說要累加到多少點數他就會被解約這個我們可以跟委員報告你現在沒有嗎你保障80都有那我們一直在強調的你為什麼延宕你為什麼沒有辦法保障我們國軍所有的福利或者我們國防部應該有的福利你們現在都已經標出去了你現在這個回答不出來\n\n10:56.533 --> 10:59.000\n在什麼樣的情況之下他必須被解約\n\n11:02.674 --> 11:14.257\n回去那回去以後把這個查就是你們說明清楚然後如果這是不合宜的合約部長是專業的我們請部長看過以後這個如果有問題這個甚至有些人來報告的是什麼人是從我們軍中退出去的以前是監管的人員他現在可以代表廠商可以出面來做報告這個部分不需要查嗎\n\n11:29.941 --> 11:36.523\n然後你保障的是廠商的他的福利跟利益然後我們所有國軍的應該有的一個保障卻講不出來這個部分我們要求回去以後把它更詳細今天我們看到這個報告是非常非常可惡而且不尊重我們立法院你總共才六月我們要的詳細的資訊其實都沒有六月你到昨天禮拜天下午一點才用電子傳過這些檔案\n\n11:58.590 --> 12:01.332\n這上個禮拜就訂的題目我們沒有辦法做更周全的準備像你們剛剛提供的給委員如果是錯誤的資訊那我們完全沒有辦法去做比較比如說剛剛講到軍博館軍博館從17億到32億到46億到54億這個中間他除了他的量體變大是17億變32億那一段因為他從原來的兩棟然後變成比較大的量體那個已經把金額增加了\n\n12:28.348 --> 12:33.269\n可是你後來又變成46億後來46億裡面其實我們當初都有去看過也做過簡報都跟我們之前的委員因為現在都是新的有些可能不知道他之前去看的時候他就是已經連內部的裝潢應該有的全部都有了有些我們有意見的我們有疑慮的你們還幫他們說的說明的非常非常清楚我們都我現在比較質疑的是為什麼都幫廠商講話\n\n12:56.576 --> 12:59.778\n我們今天為什麼說延宕這個部分很清楚剛剛講的內容是錯的他的引改基金照理說引改基金根本也不應該做這個然後你後面增加的公務預算內裝的部分也是後來加進去的8億才後來又加裝公務預算這個本來103年他從110年核定以後到112年要完工後來變成到114年\n\n13:21.494 --> 13:24.898\n因為114年他們又發生問題我們只發了300萬又給他8000萬而且還延了300多天到115年才讓他完工然後我們說他的進度超前這叫超前嗎你已經幫他往後延了然後他現在按照這樣的工進你說他是超前\n\n13:42.058 --> 14:01.179\n這是嚴重侮辱我們立法院還有我們今天其實很多剛剛提到的包括我們的海昆或者我們剛剛我們有講到那個是眾議院裡面老虎小組提出來的報告他欠我們中華民國就是有220億美元這不是外面隨便說說的\n\n14:03.191 --> 14:05.072\n我們現在提出來只有三項我們的魚叉飛彈呢魚叉飛彈當初要建案的時候是用戰備急需建案的本來是5年的期程現在變成10年剛剛聽到報告的時候好像變成12年了你到121年才會完成\n\n14:21.698 --> 14:28.544\n我想要請教一下今天如果你要參加婚禮你自己是新郎官你下個月要舉辦婚禮本來你訂的西裝應該是下個月要到結果他跟你說下下個月才會給你那你婚禮就過啦\n\n14:38.976 --> 14:42.117\n我們現在不是說我們現在很緊張嗎剛剛說F16、80、2024年還有保加利亞2025年他們都比我們晚簽約可是他們都比我們早拿到他們已經接莊了我們到現在都還沒有拿到我們不是去檢討我們應該有的作為而是一直不斷的不管是廠商國內的廠商也好或者包括對美的軍事採購我們都在幫他找理由\n\n15:05.282 --> 15:06.564\n而且還說進度正常你通通把他往後延當然進度正常我剛剛說的他的西裝下個月要給你\n\n15:15.270 --> 15:20.174\n那是因為他跟你訂的騎乘你已經把他往後拉了這樣已經過了婚禮我們要的是什麼我們今天你們在要預算的時候都說非常的急迫這個都是有戰備急需可是當他落後的時候我們找各種理由幫所有的廠商去解套而且還不斷的付錢他除了減項減量加錢不然就是幫他延期\n\n15:40.091 --> 15:42.812\n我們看到就這樣可是我們在報告裡面完全沒有看到這些資料我們要的是具體的資料我們要的是國防部可以真正去改變我們為什麼會發生這樣的情況而且比其他的單位都還要高花的錢比人家多做的比人家慢做的比人家差\n\n16:00.058 --> 16:10.150\n這是應該的嗎我們今天要開這個會的目的是希望真正可以落實真的找出問題點而不是我們現在都說進度正常我看到每一件都進度正常那他們美國眾議院為什麼要說他們延宕他們自己都說延宕了我們說他進度正常\n\n16:20.993 --> 16:25.476\n事件的關係如果我們沒有辦法提供這些都是延宕的照理說我們都有原來都有資料我們國防部的資料是最齊全的你從什麼時候建案什麼時候開始然後應該要什麼時候結案這中間發生什麼樣的過程你有什麼樣的調整其實我們都有很好的記錄\n\n16:42.069 --> 16:47.171\n如果我們沒有辦法提供那我們禮拜三就再辦一次你的時間如果準備不夠你沒有辦法提供足夠的這樣的資訊給本委員會我覺得我們應該要慎重的去關心這一件因為我們的國防預算不斷在增加如果我們包括管理的人才都不足剛剛陳委員講到的如果我們管理人才都不足你三千億六千億預算的時候都沒有辦法做好那你憑什麼九千億甚至超過一兆的時候我們可以做好\n\n17:10.960 --> 17:18.743\n這個部分這都是人民的納稅錢所以我們希望我們好好的去正視這個問題怎麼樣去改變他應該有的應處作為好不好包委員我們簡單的回應一下有關於美國眾議院去年的那個12項這12項裡面\n\n17:29.660 --> 17:43.639\n拖42B型飛彈已經全數交裝標槍也交裝海馬仕也已經全部交裝M1A2T也已經即將最後一批明年第二季的時候28輛就會到那你就把它列清楚嘛所以因為\n\n17:43.899 --> 17:46.122\n你今天都可以在這裡講你為什麼你的報告裡面不把它寫清楚當初眾議院他說的220億美金他延宕的部分你把它列出來然後哪些交裝這樣大家清清楚楚不是很好嗎你今天你在這裡講我們沒有辦法事先知道啊所以我們在準備的時候我們要怎麼問\n\n18:02.743 --> 18:15.718\n報告員對不起因為我們原本收到的指示是說要去檢討目前落後的案項來檢討後面怎麼樣改進那因為沒有理解到您這一段有關於相關的資料已經趕上進度那再補充好不好那再補充好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.37,"end":1.413,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":9.289,"end":29.967,"text":"部長早部長剛剛其實有說到就是說我們對美軍購的部分這個有延宕這個不是隨便說說在去年中央社發布的新聞裡面美國眾議院老虎小組向眾院外委會有遞交一份報告指出美國軍售交付延遲情況嚴重"},{"start":32.329,"end":49.317,"text":"光是台灣就有19項未完成的武器採購總而達到220億美元部分可能延到2027年交付甚至部分是沒有交貨日期的這是美國中醫院外國軍事銷售老虎小組"},{"start":50.097,"end":74.553,"text":"他所做的一個報告我想這個是非常明確的所以今天剛剛聽到有一些在那裡做的那個說明我是覺得有點避重就輕而且是非常離譜我們先談一些就是近期我們有看到這個陸軍裝甲旅跟機部旅實施陸聖一號的部分那我們看到他在那個陸上他整個他的那個"},{"start":78.891,"end":84.695,"text":"零件他就可能噴飛出去那這個部分有是什麼狀況有掌握了嗎 調查報告"},{"start":88.879,"end":113.691,"text":"向委員報告這個案這個第一個這個發生這樣的事故之後單位是除了先協助傷患送醫之外沒關係我們簡單就好了噴飛的零件是什麼有一些是這個履帶零件裡面的固定固定他承載人的中央導齒那他就是因過因為一個長距離的行駛導致他的鬆脫"},{"start":115.704,"end":124.149,"text":"確實有這樣的情況我們看到圖片這裡有一個零件它是一般民眾在家裡面使用的那個腳帖"},{"start":125.905,"end":140.775,"text":"報告委員這個我有下去做了解那這個跟我們戰車上面所屬的零件目前研判不是應該是這個鏡頭裡面在現場的原本的物件你有掌握狀況嗎有這是從我們車上掉下來這個這個這是從我們車上掉下來的對不對我跟單位查證不是不是這有"},{"start":150.121,"end":155.208,"text":"車上履帶有掉下來零件但是不包含這個東西目前掌握是這樣"},{"start":156.929,"end":160.551,"text":"沒有後照鏡我們戰車原本是沒有後照鏡沒有沒有可是我們在過程當中我們加裝上去因為其實在道路的系統上面其實它整個狀況可能是比較複雜的所以有些車子裝上了這個參謀長回去再了解一下因為我們不是要指責因為在台灣的道路上面我們戰車加載在民車當中"},{"start":182.724,"end":207.879,"text":"這可能是有一定的風險而且我們道路不是那麼大可是如果你調查以後這個結果跟我們掌握的不一樣那我們的調查是有問題的回去掌握以後我們下次再討論這個你這個腳帖是不是從我們上面掉下來的那個行車記錄器或者那個錄影其實大概都會有你去查清楚以後再回答那另外我們看到"},{"start":209.16,"end":222.575,"text":"剛剛應該參謀長是說不是沒關係 因為我們掌握的是就是說這個部分可能再查查清楚我們現在要說的是如果你需要加裝因為戰車上一般是不需要那你要加裝"},{"start":223.376,"end":229.301,"text":"它如果說反光會不會對我們的戰術作為有所影響因為它會造成反光所以一般戰車它可能沒有加裝這些可是如果是在我們現有的交通環境底下它可能需要的時候你就必須把它做好不是你想要裝什麼就裝什麼你必須要綠定如果它是需要的"},{"start":244.935,"end":247.436,"text":"你所有的車那你要裝就都裝應該怎麼裝就要把它裝好那你自己想裝就裝 那個有的有 有的沒有那個對我們整個尤其是我們的主戰裝備做這樣的一個隨意的這個調整或是自己改裝這個都是很嚴重的問題這個部分你們再查清楚"},{"start":268.747,"end":276.379,"text":"那如果有就做一個適切的一個規範如果有需要那你就應該要綠定那如果沒有"},{"start":278.629,"end":303.974,"text":"為什麼會我是簡單向您報告一下過去的確在戰車出去裝與不裝這方面有過做過一個研討那位戰車本身車框就已經達到3.6米多那如果再交到後視鏡其實反而更容易招致跟人家機車或是其他車輛的這個事故那基本上我們都是藉由車長在他車長位置的提示那委員的"},{"start":304.594,"end":308.495,"text":"您的剛才的指導是說實質上如果真的需要還是要去研討那這個部分我是就這次我們的操演和過去我們已經研究過相關的議題沒關係那提供調查報告時間的關係你把這一次如果不是因為這個那是什麼其他的原因那他為什麼會噴飛那就把調查報告提供給我們委員會另外我們在偽商服裝供售站的這個部分部長不曉得有沒有了解他這一次因為過去"},{"start":333.743,"end":348.72,"text":"我們就是因為希望有一個改變過去國軍服裝定期定向定量的公補模式因為有時候大家可能缺襪子有時候可能缺內衣有些人缺的是不一樣的可是我們採取定期定向定量"},{"start":349.921,"end":353.703,"text":"當他有些可能鞋子穿得破破爛爛可是他鞋子還沒有撥補發了一堆的襪子可能他也穿不了所以我們希望是做這樣的改變可是我們看到在整個服裝供售站的部分他在從開始推動到現在其實他發生過很多包括我們國軍可能有不同的"},{"start":372.374,"end":386.687,"text":"有很多不滿的一個問題好像顯然也沒有去做改善我想先今天先了解一下我們在年度契約裡面以前我們是開口契約嘛他才採購多少就計價多計價就按他實際的那個採購數量算對不對那這一次我們給廠商有保障價格是嗎"},{"start":394.363,"end":406.865,"text":"報告這個在這個所訂定年度7月80%他這個基本上是為了鼓勵廠商參標的意願但是我們沒有訂這個的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎"},{"start":408.837,"end":411.978,"text":"你之前沒有訂的時候沒有廠商要來標嗎為什麼要保障80%這個會產生兩個問題第一個就是徐喬欣委員之前說的他的毛巾價格非常高我們在外面可能2020塊30塊都可以買到過去也是可是你定價居然入軍高達110"},{"start":431.227,"end":457.453,"text":"你變成你的定價很高因為你要保障他的價格他點數在年底必須把它用完如果你用不完的時候你就去買其他很貴的東西不然就是買很多不必要的東西這不是我們設計這些這個服裝供售站的重要的目的我們不是要土地廠商我們也不是要保障廠商可以獲利而是要顧及我們所有國軍弟兄他在需求需要的時候他可以立即可以得到他需要的"},{"start":459.153,"end":477.94,"text":"所以為什麼要保障百分之八十你為什麼不是七十為什麼不是六十為什麼是八十我向您報告這個契約訂定保障百分之八十這個是在三軍的服裝供售站我剛才有向您報告就是為了讓廠商有參標的意願你沒有訂的時候沒有人來投標嗎"},{"start":479.361,"end":495.937,"text":"都有所以為什麼要保障80%這是我們覺得合約裡面非常不合理的地方因為你保障了廠商的價格可是你們有要求他必須在所有國軍弟兄因為很多人都說當我需要服裝應該要什麼size或者需要鞋子的時候"},{"start":496.778,"end":519.466,"text":"我卻買不到 包委員也要容我向您報告有罰則嗎 官兵的這個9860的點數我們主要的 沒有 有沒有罰則啦你現在有他的保障 你有沒有罰則包委員 我們沒有要求他年度內一定要把這9860支用完畢他主要是依據他的福祉條例還有整個他的補充上的需要 不用把它花完嗎沒有強制 年體沒有歸零嗎 沒有沒有強制 沒有強制要求 那過去為什麼都有"},{"start":523.287,"end":532.809,"text":"那只是為了保障官兵權益會去單位去做一個提醒去做一個了解那你過去就是這樣子啊所有官兵都是認為這樣子啊所以在年底的時候他會把它用完那個過去一直都是這樣我現在講的是你保障了商人的權利以後你有沒有罰則比如說他沒有提供當我需要的時候我一直訂不到我要我要Msize的服裝可是我一直訂不到你有沒有罰則"},{"start":552.335,"end":559.358,"text":"我也好 我是國防財務室主任有沒有罰則 每個契約都有定罰則什麼樣的罰則 這個部分有什麼樣的罰則它是用扣點數 扣點數達到30點那就比如扣10萬 就是不同的情形扣10萬 你每年保障它10億以上它這個標的價格大概66億它連標5年 你都不知道它好不好你已經給它做5年 5年你還保障它每年80%"},{"start":578.027,"end":581.828,"text":"的獲利那這一個部分你甚至沒有罰則你剛剛說罰則是點數點數才10萬大家可以再去想看看我們之前為什麼說像潛艦或者其他的完全沒有罰則這個部分我們要求你們再去做檢討因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法在這裡你保障保障廠商保障非常的好"},{"start":600.413,"end":604.656,"text":"可是你對官兵的保障你的罰則卻沒有而且不倫不類這個部分你檢討以後再提供我們更詳細的報告另外我們要看到的是剛剛有提到要我補充一下所有的罰款是累加的他是依據不同的這個違約的情形是累加我剛剛講說他舉例他累加多少他可以解約你告訴我累加多少可以解約"},{"start":626.85,"end":632.812,"text":"這個每個月都有 累加多少可以解約用簡單的讓大家知道的比如說要累加到多少點數他就會被解約這個我們可以跟委員報告你現在沒有嗎你保障80都有那我們一直在強調的你為什麼延宕你為什麼沒有辦法保障我們國軍所有的福利或者我們國防部應該有的福利你們現在都已經標出去了你現在這個回答不出來"},{"start":656.533,"end":659,"text":"在什麼樣的情況之下他必須被解約"},{"start":662.674,"end":674.257,"text":"回去那回去以後把這個查就是你們說明清楚然後如果這是不合宜的合約部長是專業的我們請部長看過以後這個如果有問題這個甚至有些人來報告的是什麼人是從我們軍中退出去的以前是監管的人員他現在可以代表廠商可以出面來做報告這個部分不需要查嗎"},{"start":689.941,"end":696.523,"text":"然後你保障的是廠商的他的福利跟利益然後我們所有國軍的應該有的一個保障卻講不出來這個部分我們要求回去以後把它更詳細今天我們看到這個報告是非常非常可惡而且不尊重我們立法院你總共才六月我們要的詳細的資訊其實都沒有六月你到昨天禮拜天下午一點才用電子傳過這些檔案"},{"start":718.59,"end":721.332,"text":"這上個禮拜就訂的題目我們沒有辦法做更周全的準備像你們剛剛提供的給委員如果是錯誤的資訊那我們完全沒有辦法去做比較比如說剛剛講到軍博館軍博館從17億到32億到46億到54億這個中間他除了他的量體變大是17億變32億那一段因為他從原來的兩棟然後變成比較大的量體那個已經把金額增加了"},{"start":748.348,"end":753.269,"text":"可是你後來又變成46億後來46億裡面其實我們當初都有去看過也做過簡報都跟我們之前的委員因為現在都是新的有些可能不知道他之前去看的時候他就是已經連內部的裝潢應該有的全部都有了有些我們有意見的我們有疑慮的你們還幫他們說的說明的非常非常清楚我們都我現在比較質疑的是為什麼都幫廠商講話"},{"start":776.576,"end":779.778,"text":"我們今天為什麼說延宕這個部分很清楚剛剛講的內容是錯的他的引改基金照理說引改基金根本也不應該做這個然後你後面增加的公務預算內裝的部分也是後來加進去的8億才後來又加裝公務預算這個本來103年他從110年核定以後到112年要完工後來變成到114年"},{"start":801.494,"end":804.898,"text":"因為114年他們又發生問題我們只發了300萬又給他8000萬而且還延了300多天到115年才讓他完工然後我們說他的進度超前這叫超前嗎你已經幫他往後延了然後他現在按照這樣的工進你說他是超前"},{"start":822.058,"end":841.179,"text":"這是嚴重侮辱我們立法院還有我們今天其實很多剛剛提到的包括我們的海昆或者我們剛剛我們有講到那個是眾議院裡面老虎小組提出來的報告他欠我們中華民國就是有220億美元這不是外面隨便說說的"},{"start":843.191,"end":845.072,"text":"我們現在提出來只有三項我們的魚叉飛彈呢魚叉飛彈當初要建案的時候是用戰備急需建案的本來是5年的期程現在變成10年剛剛聽到報告的時候好像變成12年了你到121年才會完成"},{"start":861.698,"end":868.544,"text":"我想要請教一下今天如果你要參加婚禮你自己是新郎官你下個月要舉辦婚禮本來你訂的西裝應該是下個月要到結果他跟你說下下個月才會給你那你婚禮就過啦"},{"start":878.976,"end":882.117,"text":"我們現在不是說我們現在很緊張嗎剛剛說F16、80、2024年還有保加利亞2025年他們都比我們晚簽約可是他們都比我們早拿到他們已經接莊了我們到現在都還沒有拿到我們不是去檢討我們應該有的作為而是一直不斷的不管是廠商國內的廠商也好或者包括對美的軍事採購我們都在幫他找理由"},{"start":905.282,"end":906.564,"text":"而且還說進度正常你通通把他往後延當然進度正常我剛剛說的他的西裝下個月要給你"},{"start":915.27,"end":920.174,"text":"那是因為他跟你訂的騎乘你已經把他往後拉了這樣已經過了婚禮我們要的是什麼我們今天你們在要預算的時候都說非常的急迫這個都是有戰備急需可是當他落後的時候我們找各種理由幫所有的廠商去解套而且還不斷的付錢他除了減項減量加錢不然就是幫他延期"},{"start":940.091,"end":942.812,"text":"我們看到就這樣可是我們在報告裡面完全沒有看到這些資料我們要的是具體的資料我們要的是國防部可以真正去改變我們為什麼會發生這樣的情況而且比其他的單位都還要高花的錢比人家多做的比人家慢做的比人家差"},{"start":960.058,"end":970.15,"text":"這是應該的嗎我們今天要開這個會的目的是希望真正可以落實真的找出問題點而不是我們現在都說進度正常我看到每一件都進度正常那他們美國眾議院為什麼要說他們延宕他們自己都說延宕了我們說他進度正常"},{"start":980.993,"end":985.476,"text":"事件的關係如果我們沒有辦法提供這些都是延宕的照理說我們都有原來都有資料我們國防部的資料是最齊全的你從什麼時候建案什麼時候開始然後應該要什麼時候結案這中間發生什麼樣的過程你有什麼樣的調整其實我們都有很好的記錄"},{"start":1002.069,"end":1007.171,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法提供 那我們禮拜三就再辦一次你的時間如果準備不夠你沒有辦法提供足夠的這樣的資訊給本委員會我覺得我們應該要慎重的去關心這一件因為我們的國防預算不斷在增加如果我們包括管理的人才都不足剛剛陳委員講到的如果我們管理人才都不足你三千億 六千億預算的時候都沒有辦法做好那你憑什麼九千億甚至超過一兆的時候我們可以做好"},{"start":1030.96,"end":1038.743,"text":"這個部分這都是人民的納稅錢所以我們希望我們好好的去正視這個問題怎麼樣去改變他應該有的應處作為好不好包委員我們簡單的回應一下有關於美國眾議院去年的那個12項這12項裡面"},{"start":1049.66,"end":1063.639,"text":"拖42B型飛彈已經全數交裝標槍也交裝海馬仕也已經全部交裝M1A2T也已經即將最後一批明年第二季的時候28輛就會到那你就把它列清楚嘛所以因為"},{"start":1063.899,"end":1066.122,"text":"你今天都可以在這裡講你為什麼你的報告裡面不把它寫清楚當初眾議院他說的220億美金他延宕的部分你把它列出來然後哪些交裝這樣大家清清楚楚不是很好嗎你今天你在這裡講我們沒有辦法事先知道啊所以我們在準備的時候我們要怎麼問"},{"start":1082.743,"end":1095.718,"text":"報告員 對不起 因為我們原本收到的指示是說要去檢討目前落後的案項來檢討後面怎麼樣改進那因為沒有理解到您這一段有關於相關的資料已經趕上進度 那再補充好不好 那再補充 好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時3分）謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。部長剛剛有說到我們對美軍購的部分有延宕，這個不是隨便說說，在去年中央社發布的新聞裡面，美國眾議院老虎小組向眾院外委會有遞交一份報告指出，美國軍售交付延遲情況嚴重，光是臺灣就有19項未完成的武器採購，總額達到220億美元，部分可能延到2027年交付，甚至部分是沒有交貨日期的，這是美國眾議院外國軍事銷售老虎小組所做的一個報告，我想這個是非常明確的。所以剛剛聽到一些在那裡作的說明，我是覺得有點避重就輕，而且是非常離譜。","我們先談一些近期我們看到陸軍裝甲旅跟機步旅實施陸勝1號操演，我們看到它在路上整個零件可能就噴飛出去，這個部分是什麼狀況？有掌握調查報告了嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，第一個，發生這樣的事故之後，單位除了先協助傷患送醫之外……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，簡單就好了，噴飛的零件是什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：有一些是履帶零件裡面的固定它承載人的中央導齒，因為長距離的行駛，導致它的鬆脫，確實有這樣的情況。"],["馬委員文君：我們看到圖片這裡有一個零件，它是一般民眾在家裡面使用的角鐵。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個我有下去做過了解，這跟我們戰車上面所屬的零件，目前研判應該是鏡頭裡面在現場原本的物件。"],["馬委員文君：參謀長，你有掌握狀況嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：有。"],["馬委員文君：這是從我們車上掉下來的，對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個……"],["馬委員文君：這是從我們車上掉下來的，對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：我跟單位查證，不是！"],["馬委員文君：不是？"],["陳參謀長建義：車上履帶……"],["馬委員文君：確定不是嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：履帶有掉下來零件，但是不包含這個東西。"],["馬委員文君：確定不是嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：目前掌握是這樣。"],["馬委員文君：這是後照鏡，對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有後照鏡。"],["馬委員文君：我們的戰車原本是沒有後照鏡。"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有。"],["馬委員文君：可是在過程當中我們有加裝上去，因為在道路系統上面，其實整個狀況可能是比較複雜的，所以有些車子裝上了這個，參謀長回去再了解一下。我們不是要指責，因為在臺灣的道路上面，我們的戰車夾雜在民車當中，這可能是有一定的風險。"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["馬委員文君：而且我們的道路不是那麼大，可是如果你調查以後，這個結果跟我們掌握的不一樣，那你們的調查是有問題的，回去掌握以後我們下次再討論這個。"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["馬委員文君：這個角鐵是不是從我們的戰車上掉下來的？行車紀錄器或者錄影紀錄其實大概都會有，你去查清楚以後再回答。","另外我們看到……"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛參謀長應該是說不是嘛！就是圖片上的。"],["馬委員文君：沒關係！因為我們掌握的是啦！就是這個部分可能再查清楚。我們現在要說的是如果有需要加裝，因為戰車一般是不需要的，你們若要加裝，但是如果反光會不會對我們的戰術作為有所影響？因為它會造成反光，所以一般戰車可能沒有加裝這些。可是如果是在我們現有的交通環境底下可能需要的時候，你們就必須把它做好，而不是你想要裝什麼就裝什麼，你必須要律定，如果它是需要的，所有的車你要裝就都裝，應該怎麼裝就要把它裝好，但是自己想裝就裝，有的有、有的沒有，尤其是對我們的主戰裝備做這樣一個隨意的調整或者自己改裝，這都是很嚴重的問題，這個部分你們再查清楚。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告，是！"],["馬委員文君：如果有，就做一個適切的規範，如果有需要，那就應該要律定，如果沒有，那為什麼會……"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我簡單向您報告一下，過去的確在戰車出去裝與不裝這方面有做過一個研討，因為戰車本身車框就已經達到三點六米多，如果再加上後視鏡，其實反而更容易導致跟機車或是其他車輛的事故；基本上，我們都是藉由車長在車長位置的提示，委員您剛才的指導是說，實質上如果真的需要，還是要去研討，針對這個部分，我是就這一次我們的操演和過去我們已經研究過相關的議題先向您報告。"],["馬委員文君：好，沒關係，那就提供調查報告，時間的關係，你把這一次如果不是因為這個，那是什麼其他的原因？它為什麼會噴飛？就把調查報告提供給我們委員會。"],["陳參謀長建義：是。"],["馬委員文君：另外在委商服裝供售站的部分，部長不曉得有沒有了解？因為我們就是希望改變過去國軍服裝定期、定項、定量的供補模式，因為有時候大家可能缺襪子、有時候可能缺內衣，有些人缺的是不一樣的，可是我們採取定期、定項、定量，但是有些人可能鞋子穿得破破爛爛，可是鞋子還沒有撥補，卻發了一堆襪子，可能也穿不了，所以我們希望是做這樣的改變。可是我們看到在整個服裝供售站的部分，從開始推動到現在，其實發生過很多讓我們國軍有很多不滿的問題，顯然也沒有去改善，我想今天先了解一下，以前你們的年度契約是開口契約，採購多少就按實際的採購數量計價，這一次有給廠商有保障價格，是嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：年度契約訂定保障80%，基本上是為了鼓勵廠商參標的意願，但是我們……"],["馬委員文君：之前沒有訂這個的時候，沒有廠商要來標嗎？為什麼要保障80%？這個會產生兩個問題：第一個就是徐巧芯委員之前說的，毛巾價格非常高，我們在外面可能20塊、30塊都可以買到，過去也是，可是陸軍的定價居然高達110元，變成你的定價很高，因為你要保障廠商的價格，而官兵的點數必須在年底用完，如果用不完，就要去買其他很貴的東西，不然就是買很多不必要的東西，這不是我們設計服裝供售站的目的，我們不是要圖利廠商，也不是要保障廠商可以獲利，而是要顧及所有國軍弟兄，讓他們在有需要的時候可以立即得到。為什麼要保障80%？為什麼不是70%、不是60%，而是80%？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員，我向您報告，這個契約訂定保障80%，是在三軍的服裝供售站，我剛才有向您報告，就是為了讓廠商有參標的意願。"],["馬委員文君：你沒有訂的時候，沒有人來投標嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：都有。"],["馬委員文君：那為什麼要保障80%？這是我們覺得合約非常不合理的地方，因為你保障了廠商的價格，可是有很多國軍弟兄都說，當他需要什麼size的服裝或鞋子時，卻買不到。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，也要容我向您報告……"],["馬委員文君：有罰則嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：官兵的9,860點數，主要的……"],["馬委員文君：沒有，有沒有罰則啦？你現在保障他，有沒有罰則？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我們沒有要求官兵年度內一定要把這9,860支用完畢，主要是依據服制條例還有他的需要……"],["馬委員文君：不用把它花完嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有強制。"],["馬委員文君：不用把它花完嗎？年底不會歸零嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有，沒有。"],["馬委員文君：沒有強制？"],["陳參謀長建義：沒有強制要求。"],["馬委員文君：那過去為什麼都有？"],["陳參謀長建義：那只是為了保障官兵權益，單位會做一個提醒，去做一個了解……"],["馬委員文君：過去就是這樣子啊！所有官兵都認為是這樣子，所以他們在年底的時候會把它用完，過去一直都是這樣。我現在講的是你保障了商人的權利以後，有沒有罰則？比如當國軍弟兄需要的時候，卻一直訂不到他要的size的服裝，你有沒有罰則？"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是國防採購室主任。"],["馬委員文君：有沒有罰則？"],["趙主任亞平：每個契約都有訂罰則。"],["馬委員文君：什麼樣的罰則？這個部分有什麼樣的罰則？"],["趙主任亞平：它是用扣點數，扣點數達到30點，比如扣10萬，就是不同的情形。"],["馬委員文君：扣10萬？"],["趙主任亞平：是的。"],["馬委員文君：你每年保障他10億以上，他標得的價格大概66億，連標5年，你都不知道他好不好，就給他做5年，然後你還保障他每年80%的獲利，這一個部分甚至沒有罰則，你剛剛說罰則是扣點數，扣點數才扣10萬……"],["趙主任亞平：那是累加的。"],["馬委員文君：大家可以去想想看，我們之前為什麼說像潛艦或其他的完全沒有罰則。這個部分，我們要求你們再去做檢討，今天因為時間的關係，我們沒有辦法在這裡繼續追究，你對廠商的保障非常好，沒有罰則，可是對官兵卻沒有保障，不倫不類，這個部分你檢討以後，再提供我們更詳細的報告。","另外，剛剛有提到……"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，我補充一下，所有的罰款是累加的，它是依據不同的違約情形累加計算的，我舉個例，30點……"],["馬委員文君：要累加多少才可以解約？你告訴我累加多少可以解約。"],["趙主任亞平：每個約都有規定。"],["馬委員文君：累加多少可以解約？簡單的讓大家知道，比如要累加到多少點數，他就會被解約，這個有嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：這個我們可以跟委員報告，我們另外再……"],["馬委員文君：你現在沒有嗎？你保障80%都有，我們一直在強調，你為什麼延宕？你為什麼沒有辦法保障我們國軍所有的福利或國防部應該有的福利？你們都已經標出去了，你現在還回答不出來。在什麼樣的情況之下，他必須被解約？回去以後你們說明清楚，如果這是不合理的合約，部長是專業的，請部長看過以後，如果有問題，甚至有些來報告的人是從軍中退出去的監管人員，他現在可以代表廠商出面做報告，這個部分不需要查嗎？然後你保障的是廠商的福利跟利益，我們國軍應該有的保障，你卻講不出來。我要求你們回去以後做更詳細的報告，今天我們看到這個報告非常非常可惡，而且不尊重我們立法院，總共才6頁，我們要的詳細的資訊都沒有，6頁的報告是昨天禮拜天下午一點才用電子檔傳過來的，這是上個禮拜就訂的題目，我們沒有辦法做更周全的準備，如果你們提供給委員的是錯誤的資訊，那我們完全沒有辦法去做比較。比如講到軍博館，軍博館從17億到32億、到46億、到54億，這個中間除了量體變大，就是17億變32億那一段，因為它從原來的兩棟變成比較大的量體，那個部分已經增加金額了，可是後來又變成46億，其實我們當初都有去看過，也做過簡報，當時都是之前的委員，現在很多新委員，有些可能不知道，我們之前去看的時候，內部的裝潢就是應該有的全部都有了，有些我們有意見的、有疑慮的，你們還幫他們說明得非常清楚，我現在比較質疑的是，為什麼都幫廠商講話？我們今天為什麼說延宕？這個部分很清楚，剛剛講的內容是錯的，照理說營改基金根本不應該做這個，後來內裝的部分又增加了8億公務預算，本來110年核定以後，到112年就要完工，後來變成114年，因為114年他們又發生問題，我們只罰了300萬，又給他8,000萬，而且還延了三百多天，讓他們可以到115年才完工，然後你們說他的進度超前，這叫超前嗎？你已經幫他往後延了，然後他現在這樣的工進，你說他是超前，這是嚴重侮辱我們立法院！還有剛剛提到海鯤號，或者眾議院老虎小組提出來的報告說，他們欠我們中華民國220億美元，這不是外面隨便說說的。我們現在提出來的只有三項，魚叉飛彈呢？魚叉飛彈當初要建案的時候是用戰備急需建案的，本來是5年的期程，現在變成10年，剛剛聽到報告，好像又變成12年了，要到121年才會完成。我想要請教一下，今天如果你是新郎官，你下個月要舉辦婚禮，本來你訂的西裝下個月要到，結果他跟你說下下個月才會給你，那你的婚禮就過了啊！不是說我們現在很緊張嗎？剛剛說F-16，巴林2024年，還有保加利亞2025年，他們都比我們晚簽約，可是他們都比我們早拿到，他們已經接裝了，我們到現在都還沒有拿到，你們不是去檢討應該有的作為，而是一直不斷的幫國內的廠商或對美的軍事採購找理由，而且還說進度正常，你通通把它往後延，當然進度正常。我剛剛說的，西裝下下個月才要給你，那是因為你已經把期程往後延了，這樣已經過了婚禮，我們要的是什麼？你們在要預算的時候都說非常急迫，都有戰備急需，可是當它落後的時候，你們找各種理由幫所有廠商解套，而且還不斷的付錢，除了減項、減量、加錢，要不然就是延期，我們看到的就是這樣，可是在報告裡面，我們完全沒有看到這些資料，我們要的是具體的資料，我們要的是國防部可以真正去改變，你們為什麼會發生這樣的情況，而且比其他單位都還要高，花的錢比人家多，做得比人家慢也比人家差，這是應該的嗎？我們今天要開這個會的目的是希望真正可以落實、真的找出問題點，而不是現在都說進度正常，我們看到每一件都進度正常，那美國眾議院為什麼要說他們延宕？他們自己都說延宕了，我們說他進度正常？","這些都是延宕了，照理說我們原來都有資料，我們國防部的資料是最齊全的，你從什麼時候建案、什麼時候開始，然後應該要什麼時候結案，這中間發生什麼樣的過程、你有什麼樣的調整，其實都有很好的紀錄，如果沒有辦法提供，那我們禮拜三就再辦一次。你的時間如果準備不夠，你沒有辦法提供足夠的資訊給本委員會，我覺得我們應該要慎重地去關心這一件，因為國防預算不斷在增加，剛剛陳委員講到的，包括如果我們管理人才都不足，你三千億、六千億預算的時候都沒有辦法做好，那你憑什麼九千億，甚至超過一兆的時候我們可以做好？這都是人民的納稅錢，所以希望我們好好地正視這個問題，怎麼樣去改變它應該有的應處作為，好不好？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們簡短回應一下，有關於美國眾議院去年的那12項，這12項裡面，拖式2B型飛彈已經全數交裝、標槍也交裝，海馬士也已經全部交裝，M1A2T最後一批也即將、明年第2季的時候28輛就會到。"],["馬委員文君：那你就把它列清楚。"],["黃司長文啓：所以因為……"],["馬委員文君：你今天都可以在這裡講，為什麼你的報告裡面不把它寫清楚？當初眾議院說的220億美金，他延宕的部分，你把它列出來，然後哪些交裝，這樣大家清清楚楚，不是很好嗎？今天你在這裡講，我們沒有辦法事先知道啊！所以我們在準備的時候，我們要怎麼問？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，對不起，因為我們原本收到的指示是要檢討目前落後的案項，檢討後面怎麼樣改進。因為沒有理解到您這一段，就相關的資料已經趕上進度了，我們……"],["馬委員文君：那再補充，好不好？"],["黃司長文啓：我們可以另外提供。"],["馬委員文君：好，那再補充，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。各位先請回喝口水。","下面請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}