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00:00:51,310\n我們很多人在討論這個議題都忘記了前提是什麼我們沒事喜歡花一億兩億一千億去投資國防嗎是因為什麼我們面對威脅嘛那威脅我們的是誰全世界就一個國家宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家全世界就他而中國的軍備增加狀況部長有沒有掌握\n\n3\n00:00:52,966 --> 00:01:08,708\n我想他都會陸續以兩倍的這個軍匪增長的速度來增加表面的數據他還有黑數我光用他表面數據至少過去連續四年每年已超過7%的幅度成長今年達到史上最高8兆\n\n4\n00:01:11,103 --> 00:01:34,276\n應該我講的是過去十年對那我現在只算他的帳面上的我還沒有把他的武警準軍事化還有黑術我沒有算進去我光從中國公布的數據到2025年八兆習近平剛接任的時候2013年他們的帳面上的軍費支出是6300億人民幣\n\n5\n00:01:37,694 --> 00:02:06,138\n到現在已經是一兆多所以中國是倍增的方式然後我們是他威脅的重中之重所以有人說台灣的國防預算太多了你怎麼不去跟老共講啊拿起棍棒打我們的是中國耶我們只不過想架起一個盾牌門上上個鎖家裡裝個保全讓自己的家人可以安心一點嫌我們做太多叫我們放下武器\n\n6\n00:02:07,512 --> 00:02:34,485\n侵略者放下武器才有和平守衛者放下武器就滅國了那我在請教部長我們為什麼不到處比價來來來法國來跟我比一下價英國來跟我比一下價美國來比一下價我們買到便宜的交貨快的我們為什麼沒辦法這樣子像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便人家韓國為什麼可以買這一家的引擎要川普可以\n\n7\n00:02:34,932 --> 00:02:59,625\n供應它核子燃料做潛艇我們為什麼不能你有答案啦這個答案是常識嘛我想應該委員大家都很清楚就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛原因也是因為中國嘛有人講台灣買舊東西貴東西當然那個時代已經過去了我們現在買幾乎都現衣裝備但我們軍事採購會這麼困難\n\n8\n00:03:02,026 --> 00:03:25,595\n我們不是買方市場我們是賣方市場因為我們可以取得的現代化最新型的軍事裝備來源受限而受限的原因是任何國家跟台灣打交道中國就要制裁這個制裁那個這是原因啊你不把這兩個特殊的原因我們面對極大的威脅我們也面對極大的封鎖單純用好像在買賣一樣看我們面對軍購的困難對國軍不公平\n\n9\n00:03:30,206 --> 00:03:57,702\n對我們負責採購的降臨也不公平我這樣講應該算持平吧所以我要接下來問的是幾個簡單的問題然後後來我們再討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法即時履約第一個問題是大家一直在講的我們台灣到底有沒有丟六千億放在美國那邊然後什麼都沒有拿到我們目前對美軍購已經付錢但是沒有拿到貨的到底是有沒有\n\n10\n00:03:59,207 --> 00:04:23,696\n錢已經給了但是我沒有拿到貨的我們目前所有的案項裡面從96年開始的I3新購跟I2性能提升到最後一個案子TPS拐拐拐巴總共加起來是300餘億美元這是我們軍購的總母數啦歷年來我們總共結匯了188億餘美元\n\n11\n00:04:28,598 --> 00:04:31,561\n結會的意思就是付出去的結會應該是匯到美國匯到美國是放在我國帳戶還是放在美方帳戶有一些\n\n12\n00:04:41,946 --> 00:05:07,316\n方委員這個部分會先進到他的FRB帳戶然後美方再依照他的產制期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面但是我剛剛提的188億餘美元裡面有很多都已經實行完畢了包括1700多億你說這樣講這些數據會產生一個誤解就我看到你們的報告我理解的就是按照合約\n\n13\n00:05:08,536 --> 00:05:17,943\n他拿錢沒有給我們的其實是沒有因為我們台灣沒有當運大頭啊我不會提早把錢放在那邊等你交貨嘛所以按照合約\n\n14\n00:05:19,318 --> 00:05:42,544\n我們已經付錢但是他沒有一約交貨的目前其實是沒有但是有沒有延宕有慢的有慢的部分就是說我按照合約你這個時候應該要做到哪裡了但是你還沒有達到所以我錢也不能讓你扣走嘛所以付錢不交貨沒有但是時間到了該付錢你要交貨\n\n15\n00:05:43,584 --> 00:06:11,943\n他沒有到我們沒有付錢但有延宕我這樣理解對不對好那我要問第二個目前按照期程的節點應該要達到這個目的但是他沒有達標所以我不付錢我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目結匯48億嘛美金嘛就這三個嘛所以我再把剛才整理一下讓國人釐清納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備大概是300億美金\n\n16\n00:06:13,724 --> 00:06:34,043\n但是300億美金不是我先付給他放在那裡等他交貨沒有所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢但是沒拿到東西的是沒有這個情形但有沒有按照進度他該交東西了但是還沒有交所以我錢暫時hold住不付這個有這個有多少呢有三大項目大概佔48億美金\n\n17\n00:06:35,805 --> 00:07:04,946\n所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭說錢讓人家當ATM領錢了不付這個不交貨嘛回到我們面對重大的威脅回到我們在軍事採購上的困境動輒把全世界提供先進武器最重要的盟友去製造彼此的不信任去醜化他對我們台灣到底有沒有幫助我覺得國人要去思考所以回到這48億商業項目我請教部長\n\n18\n00:07:06,121 --> 00:07:30,338\n我剛才把這個思路整理清楚300億的美元的軍購案錢我們沒有沒拿到或付錢零而該一約給我們東西還沒給有延宕的有三樣48億美金但我錢不會付給他所以台灣並沒有當冤大頭不會有付錢在那邊等東西沒有這情形但現在有三個延宕我們擔心影響戰力第一個\n\n19\n00:07:32,162 --> 00:07:58,602\n第一個就是AGM-1547AGM-1547呢原來美方其實長期我們軍方講要買這個其實相當時間了我還印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊那天聽到我還聽到一個飛官說哇這個終於賣了這一個現在原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運嘛\n\n20\n00:08:00,046 --> 00:08:27,165\n那你們現在寫了一些理由啦最新構型我們跟美軍是同型的嘛最新型的沒有買舊的買中古的吧包圍我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代我們是block3所以我們拿的是美軍現役的是block2我們現在買到的是最新型的block3所以要重新產線啊備料啊等等所以呢慢了我第一個問題是現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約\n\n21\n00:08:28,988 --> 00:08:45,099\n包委員剛剛您提到的106年同意公售之後其實我們一直還沒有完成預約因為我們的構型還有我們的F16V所以2017年那一次大概就是同意而已但還沒有雙方簽約就對了\n\n22\n00:08:46,820 --> 00:09:15,731\n我們跟美軍他們有報價但是美軍他跟次合約商就是他的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成預約因為這個你們都有報告我們現在跑快一點這一個案子什麼時候美方的回覆什麼時候可以交往我們在這個月的記管會他們提到應該在這兩年就是在116年到117可以全數的交完所以等於是往後延了兩年到2028年是我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116到117會全部交代\n\n23\n00:09:16,471 --> 00:09:39,988\n2028年可以完全交運他有一個前提你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常所以說美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116到117因為你寫要重啟產線什麼當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆還有俄烏戰爭俄烏戰爭排序優先數據改變這些因素都解決了沒如果他沒有解決你怎麼能確認20182028可以交貨\n\n24\n00:09:42,210 --> 00:10:02,622\n是這些都是美軍他跟次合約商評估完目前我們準備要跟他完成預約那廠商提供的這個時程表好我們下一個項目F16V大家最關注的當時是用了特別預算來採購嘛那原定的時程是2023年開始交第一架機\n\n25\n00:10:03,763 --> 00:10:21,698\n然後到2026年全部要交到我們台灣那目前延宕我知道這是F16VK說等於是一個全新的機種了因為全新的機種它很多次系統要整合要測試所以當然會有一些困難就像一個全新的一個飛機一樣那\n\n26\n00:10:23,922 --> 00:10:41,352\n第一個問題一樣目前你們預計今年會不會交機數量我先不問今年來不及交機今年沒辦法來不及交機那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷這些原因這些因素到底是否已經排除\n\n27\n00:10:42,279 --> 00:10:57,098\n目前都已經逐漸在排除當中最主要的原因現在是在工程整合上面的問題像缺工缺料的部分這個我們也一再跟美軍做一個我簡單分享我們在生產管理上第一塊叫做技術問題嘛技術問題已經處理好了\n\n28\n00:11:00,743 --> 00:11:15,615\n那第二個就是生產的排成啊作業流程啊現在是這一塊要把它更有效率嘛是排成的這個部分已經在已經都回到原來的這個趕工的那所以我們可不可以講F16V原來遇到延宕的因素\n\n29\n00:11:16,235 --> 00:11:34,631\n已經解決因為你用逐漸解決我就不曉得是在解決跟還沒解決之間在遊蕩嘛就我了解應該是在最後的這個測試飛行的這個部分要能夠順利所以他現在整合裝好之後要上去做測評嘛測試飛行完成生產線就開始生產\n\n30\n00:11:35,411 --> 00:11:59,210\n生產線也同時在生產當中我們剛講的年底前應該可以組裝十架完成那現在就是再進一步再做一個測試配線年底組裝完成未必來得及交機因為還要做一個測試配線所以我剛才聽你們講是今年的交機可能不樂觀那你們預劃最後會完整交機的時間是什麼時候\n\n31\n00:12:01,553 --> 00:12:09,357\n我們現在沒有辦法畫出一個明確的時間點但是我們能夠講的就是說整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架\n\n32\n00:12:11,906 --> 00:12:40,975\n我那天看你們報告20小時加班同時50下組裝嘛所以他很有可能一個結果就是以前我們是3架5架慢慢交他可能會一次交一大批嘛如果測試順利的話我想就會有一個比較大的數量他這樣子的騎乘會影響到我們一件事情我們通常我們的人員的編裝啦培育啦會跟著交機騎乘這樣順順的來他現在慢了突然間給你一堆\n\n33\n00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:48,989\n我們的飛行員跟後勤整個人的部分會不會有影響\n\n34\n00:12:50,213 --> 00:13:15,529\n老師各位報告這個部分我們在早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃所以說人的補充的部分還有調配的部分因為我們希望能夠盡快形成戰力您剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F16block兩棟的飛行員已經也提升到16V所以說這個人員的調配我們讓盡快能夠讓他一次能夠到位我剛講的問題就是說\n\n35\n00:13:16,730 --> 00:13:32,882\n原來我們規劃是你逐漸交機我們的人逐漸跟上嘛這樣訓練的時程量能才會夠可是如果交機慢團隊大量給你那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊那這一個部分的調配你們怎麼處理\n\n36\n00:13:34,523 --> 00:13:57,168\n他即使是大量也不會說大量到我們沒辦法去負荷因為我們的人在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編程對有關這個人員的部分我順帶給部長提醒一下我們陸軍的A機AH-1OH-58你也知道很多因為那個飛機要慢慢陸續要淘汰了OH-58D要淘汰了\n\n37\n00:13:58,188 --> 00:14:26,999\nA機你們就延後啦我只是提醒飛行員的訓練不容易是國家重要資產那如果輕易的因為裝備沒有跟上就讓飛行員離開現場這個對將來如果有新的飛機的話我們在籌貨人的話其實會我覺得會有點可惜這些都是國家優秀的資產人跟裝備我認為人還更重要所以這些飛行官不要動輒就是大量的讓他移走或者移去飛無人機\n\n38\n00:14:28,660 --> 00:14:41,608\n飛官飛官去飛無人機在尊嚴上跟待遇上他們不會接受的我最後請教我最後一分鐘請教第三個項目延宕的是這個Mk48我們Mk48呢這一個我們買到是\n\n39\n00:14:47,071 --> 00:15:04,702\n那個Mod6還是Mod7應該是6的嘛第六型的嘛因為第七型是美軍最新的我們是用現役的那本來是26年也就是明年要完成交運那現在呢延後到什麼時候可以交貨\n\n40\n00:15:06,333 --> 00:15:34,459\n跟委員報告那因為美國要能夠強化這個產線跟供應他已經重新的產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去那預計是在會在這個115年他會開始有陸續來做一個也就明年開始會陸續交貨那因為原來是2023到2026嘛那如果明年才陸續交貨我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延所以最後的節點的時間會什麼時候\n\n41\n00:15:35,613 --> 00:16:02,575\n最後面的節點時間應該會在這個117年到118年做最後結案美方有沒有什麼替代方案他先把現役的先借我們用因為有潛艦沒有重型魚雷這個是開玩笑啊這個也列入他們一個替代方案讓我們的戰力先補時嘛那將來交貨的時候再還給他因為是他慢的不是我們慢的因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題還不見得是外面承包商喔\n\n42\n00:16:03,654 --> 00:16:19,809\n都有但是主要是因為承包商的供應當初的那個量沒有需求量沒有辦法預估到這個時間關係我是建議國防部好有關這個因為納稅人的錢我們對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付但那個所有的\n\n43\n00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:34,538\n有一些在惡意的公結有的是好像顯龍國防部都沒有在管錢或者讓台美之間的信任產生裂痕這個沒有必要講對了我們改正講錯了要提出來我們根本沒有付錢放在那邊等貨\n\n44\n00:16:35,865 --> 00:16:52,287\n我們是按照節點付錢你慢我們錢就不給你台灣不肯當冤大頭而台灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖我們的採購真的有它的困難在這困難下如果輕率的去說出國防預算太多不需要國防預算\n\n45\n00:16:54,844 --> 00:17:05,549\n除了對不起國軍長期的努力以外是把2300萬人的安全放在什麼地方我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲我們的安全要靠自己的努力還有國際的氛圍謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1469\t25554\t麻煩請部長請部長部長早其實台灣軍購或者投資國防為什麼我們需要加大投資以及為什麼我們會有滿滿的困難我想長期在關心這個領域\n27125\t51310\t我們很多人在討論這個議題都忘記了前提是什麼我們沒事喜歡花一億兩億一千億去投資國防嗎是因為什麼我們面對威脅嘛那威脅我們的是誰全世界就一個國家宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家全世界就他而中國的軍備增加狀況部長有沒有掌握\n52966\t68708\t我想他都會陸續以兩倍的這個軍匪增長的速度來增加表面的數據他還有黑數我光用他表面數據至少過去連續四年每年已超過7%的幅度成長今年達到史上最高8兆\n71103\t94276\t應該我講的是過去十年對 那我現在只算他的帳面上的我還沒有把他的武警 準軍事化還有黑術我沒有算進去我光從中國公布的數據到2025年 八兆習近平剛接任的時候2013年他們的帳面上的軍費支出是6300億人民幣\n97694\t126138\t到現在已經是一兆多所以中國是倍增的方式然後我們是他威脅的重中之重所以有人說台灣的國防預算太多了你怎麼不去跟老共講啊拿起棍棒打我們的是中國耶我們只不過想架起一個盾牌門上上個鎖家裡裝個保全讓自己的家人可以安心一點嫌我們做太多叫我們放下武器\n127512\t154485\t侵略者放下武器才有和平守衛者放下武器就滅國了那我在請教部長我們為什麼不到處比價來來來法國來跟我比一下價英國來跟我比一下價美國來比一下價我們買到便宜的交貨快的我們為什麼沒辦法這樣子像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便人家韓國為什麼可以買這一家的引擎要川普可以\n154932\t179625\t供應它核子燃料做潛艇我們為什麼不能你有答案啦這個答案是常識嘛我想應該委員大家都很清楚就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛原因也是因為中國嘛有人講台灣買舊東西貴東西當然那個時代已經過去了我們現在買幾乎都現衣裝備但我們軍事採購會這麼困難\n182026\t205595\t我們不是買方市場我們是賣方市場因為我們可以取得的現代化最新型的軍事裝備來源受限而受限的原因是任何國家跟台灣打交道中國就要制裁這個制裁那個這是原因啊你不把這兩個特殊的原因我們面對極大的威脅我們也面對極大的封鎖單純用好像在買賣一樣看我們面對軍購的困難對國軍不公平\n210206\t237702\t對我們負責採購的降臨也不公平我這樣講應該算持平吧所以我要接下來問的是幾個簡單的問題然後後來我們再討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法即時履約第一個問題是大家一直在講的我們台灣到底有沒有丟六千億放在美國那邊然後什麼都沒有拿到我們目前對美軍購已經付錢但是沒有拿到貨的到底是有沒有\n239207\t263696\t錢已經給了 但是我沒有拿到貨的我們目前所有的案項裡面從96年開始的I3新購跟I2性能提升到最後一個案子TPS拐拐拐巴總共加起來是300餘億美元這是我們軍購的總母數啦歷年來我們總共結匯了188億餘美元\n268598\t271561\t結會的意思就是付出去的結會應該是匯到美國匯到美國是放在我國帳戶還是放在美方帳戶有一些\n281946\t307316\t方委員這個部分會先進到他的FRB帳戶然後美方再依照他的產制期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面但是我剛剛提的188億餘美元裡面有很多都已經實行完畢了包括1700多億你說這樣講這些數據會產生一個誤解就我看到你們的報告我理解的就是按照合約\n308536\t317943\t他拿錢沒有給我們的其實是沒有因為我們台灣沒有當運大頭啊我不會提早把錢放在那邊等你交貨嘛所以按照合約\n319318\t342544\t我們已經付錢但是他沒有一約交貨的目前其實是沒有但是有沒有延宕 有慢的有慢的部分就是說我按照合約你這個時候應該要做到哪裡了但是你還沒有達到所以我錢也不能讓你扣走嘛所以付錢不交貨 沒有但是時間到了該付錢你要交貨\n343584\t371943\t他沒有到我們沒有付錢但有延宕我這樣理解對不對好那我要問第二個目前按照期程的節點應該要達到這個目的但是他沒有達標所以我不付錢我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目結匯48億嘛美金嘛就這三個嘛所以我再把剛才整理一下讓國人釐清納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備大概是300億美金\n373724\t394043\t但是300億美金不是我先付給他放在那裡等他交貨 沒有所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢但是沒拿到東西的是沒有這個情形但有沒有按照進度他該交東西了但是還沒有交所以我錢暫時hold住不付這個有 這個有多少呢有三大項目大概佔48億美金\n395805\t424946\t所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭說錢讓人家當ATM領錢了不付這個不交貨嘛回到我們面對重大的威脅回到我們在軍事採購上的困境動輒把全世界提供先進武器最重要的盟友去製造彼此的不信任去醜化他對我們台灣到底有沒有幫助我覺得國人要去思考所以回到這48億商業項目我請教部長\n426121\t450338\t我剛才把這個思路整理清楚 300億的美元的軍購案錢我們沒有 沒拿到或付錢 零而該一約給我們東西 還沒給 有延宕的有三樣 48億美金 但我錢不會付給他所以台灣並沒有當冤大頭 不會有付錢在那邊等東西 沒有這情形但現在有三個延宕 我們擔心影響戰力 第一個\n452162\t478602\t第一個就是AGM-1547AGM-1547呢原來美方其實長期我們軍方講要買這個其實相當時間了我還印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊那天聽到 我還聽到一個飛官說哇 這個終於賣了這一個現在原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運嘛\n480046\t507165\t那你們現在寫了一些理由啦最新構型我們跟美軍是同型的嘛最新型的沒有買舊的買中古的吧包圍我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代我們是block 3所以我們拿的是美軍現役的是block 2我們現在買到的是最新型的block 3所以要重新產線啊備料啊等等所以呢慢了我第一個問題是現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約\n508988\t525099\t包委員 剛剛您提到的106年同意公售之後其實我們一直還沒有完成預約因為我們的構型還有我們的F16V所以2017年那一次大概就是同意而已但還沒有雙方簽約就對了\n526820\t555731\t我們跟美軍他們有報價但是美軍他跟次合約商就是他的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成預約因為這個你們都有報告我們現在跑快一點這一個案子什麼時候美方的回覆什麼時候可以交往我們在這個月的記管會他們提到應該在這兩年就是在116年到117可以全數的交完所以等於是往後延了兩年到2028年是 我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116到117會全部交代\n556471\t579988\t2028年可以完全交運他有一個前提你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常所以說美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116到117因為你寫要重啟產線什麼當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆還有俄烏戰爭俄烏戰爭排序優先數據改變這些因素都解決了沒如果他沒有解決你怎麼能確認20182028可以交貨\n582210\t602622\t是 這些都是美軍他跟次合約商評估完目前我們準備要跟他完成預約那廠商提供的這個時程表好 我們下一個項目F16V大家最關注的當時是用了特別預算來採購嘛那原定的時程是2023年開始交第一架機\n603763\t621698\t然後到2026年全部要交到我們台灣那目前延宕我知道這是F16VK說等於是一個全新的機種了因為全新的機種它很多次系統要整合要測試所以當然會有一些困難就像一個全新的一個飛機一樣那\n623922\t641352\t第一個問題一樣目前你們預計今年會不會交機數量我先不問今年來不及交機今年沒辦法來不及交機那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷這些原因這些因素到底是否已經排除\n642279\t657098\t目前都已經逐漸在排除當中最主要的原因現在是在工程整合上面的問題像缺工缺料的部分這個我們也一再跟美軍做一個我簡單分享我們在生產管理上第一塊叫做技術問題嘛技術問題已經處理好了\n660743\t675615\t那第二個就是生產的排成啊作業流程啊現在是這一塊要把它更有效率嘛是 排成的這個部分已經在已經都回到原來的這個趕工的那所以我們可不可以講F16V原來遇到延宕的因素\n676235\t694631\t已經解決因為你用逐漸解決我就不曉得是在解決跟還沒解決之間在遊蕩嘛就我了解應該是在最後的這個測試飛行的這個部分要能夠順利所以他現在整合裝好之後要上去做測評嘛測試飛行完成生產線就開始生產\n695411\t719210\t生產線也同時在生產當中我們剛講的年底前應該可以組裝十架完成那現在就是再進一步再做一個測試配線年底組裝完成未必來得及交機因為還要做一個測試配線所以我剛才聽你們講是今年的交機可能不樂觀那你們預劃最後會完整交機的時間是什麼時候\n721553\t729357\t我們現在沒有辦法畫出一個明確的時間點但是我們能夠講的就是說整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架\n731906\t760975\t我那天看你們報告20小時加班同時50下組裝嘛所以他很有可能一個結果就是以前我們是3架5架慢慢交他可能會一次交一大批嘛如果測試順利的話我想就會有一個比較大的數量他這樣子的騎乘會影響到我們一件事情我們通常我們的人員的編裝啦培育啦會跟著交機騎乘這樣順順的來他現在慢了突然間給你一堆\n762290\t768989\t我們的飛行員跟後勤整個人的部分會不會有影響\n770213\t795529\t老師各位報告這個部分我們在早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃所以說人的補充的部分還有調配的部分因為我們希望能夠盡快形成戰力您剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F16 block兩棟的飛行員已經也提升到16V所以說這個人員的調配我們讓盡快能夠讓他一次能夠到位我剛講的問題就是說\n796730\t812882\t原來我們規劃是 你逐漸交機 我們的人逐漸跟上嘛這樣訓練的時程 量能才會夠可是如果交機慢 團隊大量給你那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊那這一個部分的調配 你們怎麼處理\n814523\t837168\t他即使是大量也不會說大量到我們沒辦法去負荷因為我們的人在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編程對 有關這個人員的部分我順帶給部長提醒一下我們陸軍的A機 AH-1 OH-58你也知道很多因為那個飛機要慢慢陸續要淘汰了OH-58D要淘汰了\n838188\t866999\tA機你們就延後啦我只是提醒飛行員的訓練不容易是國家重要資產那如果輕易的因為裝備沒有跟上就讓飛行員離開現場這個對將來如果有新的飛機的話我們在籌貨人的話其實會我覺得會有點可惜這些都是國家優秀的資產人跟裝備我認為人還更重要所以這些飛行官不要動輒就是大量的讓他移走或者移去飛無人機\n868660\t881608\t飛官飛官去飛無人機在尊嚴上跟待遇上他們不會接受的我最後請教我最後一分鐘請教第三個項目延宕的是這個Mk48我們Mk48呢這一個我們買到是\n887071\t904702\t那個Mod 6還是Mod 7 應該是6的嘛 第六型的嘛因為第七型是美軍最新的 我們是用現役的那本來是26年 也就是明年要完成交運那現在呢 延後到什麼時候可以交貨\n906333\t934459\t跟委員報告那因為美國要能夠強化這個產線跟供應他已經重新的產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去那預計是在會在這個115年他會開始有陸續來做一個也就明年開始會陸續交貨那因為原來是2023到2026嘛那如果明年才陸續交貨我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延所以最後的節點的時間會什麼時候\n935613\t962575\t最後面的節點時間應該會在這個117年到118年做最後結案美方有沒有什麼替代方案他先把現役的先借我們用因為有潛艦沒有重型魚雷這個是開玩笑啊這個也列入他們一個替代方案讓我們的戰力先補時嘛那將來交貨的時候再還給他因為是他慢的不是我們慢的因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題還不見得是外面承包商喔\n963654\t979809\t都有但是主要是因為承包商的供應當初的那個量沒有需求量沒有辦法預估到這個時間關係我是建議國防部好有關這個因為納稅人的錢我們對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付但那個所有的\n980430\t994538\t有一些在惡意的公結 有的是好像顯龍國防部都沒有在管錢或者讓台美之間的信任產生裂痕 這個沒有必要講對了我們改正 講錯了要提出來我們根本沒有付錢放在那邊等貨\n995865\t1012287\t我們是按照節點付錢你慢我們錢就不給你台灣不肯當冤大頭而台灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖我們的採購真的有它的困難在這困難下如果輕率的去說出國防預算太多不需要國防預算\n1014844\t1025549\t除了對不起國軍長期的努力以外是把2300萬人的安全放在什麼地方我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲我們的安全要靠自己的努力還有國際的氛圍 謝謝部長\n","txt":"麻煩請部長請部長部長早其實台灣軍購或者投資國防為什麼我們需要加大投資以及為什麼我們會有滿滿的困難我想長期在關心這個領域\n我們很多人在討論這個議題都忘記了前提是什麼我們沒事喜歡花一億兩億一千億去投資國防嗎是因為什麼我們面對威脅嘛那威脅我們的是誰全世界就一個國家宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家全世界就他而中國的軍備增加狀況部長有沒有掌握\n我想他都會陸續以兩倍的這個軍匪增長的速度來增加表面的數據他還有黑數我光用他表面數據至少過去連續四年每年已超過7%的幅度成長今年達到史上最高8兆\n應該我講的是過去十年對 那我現在只算他的帳面上的我還沒有把他的武警 準軍事化還有黑術我沒有算進去我光從中國公布的數據到2025年 八兆習近平剛接任的時候2013年他們的帳面上的軍費支出是6300億人民幣\n到現在已經是一兆多所以中國是倍增的方式然後我們是他威脅的重中之重所以有人說台灣的國防預算太多了你怎麼不去跟老共講啊拿起棍棒打我們的是中國耶我們只不過想架起一個盾牌門上上個鎖家裡裝個保全讓自己的家人可以安心一點嫌我們做太多叫我們放下武器\n侵略者放下武器才有和平守衛者放下武器就滅國了那我在請教部長我們為什麼不到處比價來來來法國來跟我比一下價英國來跟我比一下價美國來比一下價我們買到便宜的交貨快的我們為什麼沒辦法這樣子像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便人家韓國為什麼可以買這一家的引擎要川普可以\n供應它核子燃料做潛艇我們為什麼不能你有答案啦這個答案是常識嘛我想應該委員大家都很清楚就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛原因也是因為中國嘛有人講台灣買舊東西貴東西當然那個時代已經過去了我們現在買幾乎都現衣裝備但我們軍事採購會這麼困難\n我們不是買方市場我們是賣方市場因為我們可以取得的現代化最新型的軍事裝備來源受限而受限的原因是任何國家跟台灣打交道中國就要制裁這個制裁那個這是原因啊你不把這兩個特殊的原因我們面對極大的威脅我們也面對極大的封鎖單純用好像在買賣一樣看我們面對軍購的困難對國軍不公平\n對我們負責採購的降臨也不公平我這樣講應該算持平吧所以我要接下來問的是幾個簡單的問題然後後來我們再討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法即時履約第一個問題是大家一直在講的我們台灣到底有沒有丟六千億放在美國那邊然後什麼都沒有拿到我們目前對美軍購已經付錢但是沒有拿到貨的到底是有沒有\n錢已經給了 但是我沒有拿到貨的我們目前所有的案項裡面從96年開始的I3新購跟I2性能提升到最後一個案子TPS拐拐拐巴總共加起來是300餘億美元這是我們軍購的總母數啦歷年來我們總共結匯了188億餘美元\n結會的意思就是付出去的結會應該是匯到美國匯到美國是放在我國帳戶還是放在美方帳戶有一些\n方委員這個部分會先進到他的FRB帳戶然後美方再依照他的產制期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面但是我剛剛提的188億餘美元裡面有很多都已經實行完畢了包括1700多億你說這樣講這些數據會產生一個誤解就我看到你們的報告我理解的就是按照合約\n他拿錢沒有給我們的其實是沒有因為我們台灣沒有當運大頭啊我不會提早把錢放在那邊等你交貨嘛所以按照合約\n我們已經付錢但是他沒有一約交貨的目前其實是沒有但是有沒有延宕 有慢的有慢的部分就是說我按照合約你這個時候應該要做到哪裡了但是你還沒有達到所以我錢也不能讓你扣走嘛所以付錢不交貨 沒有但是時間到了該付錢你要交貨\n他沒有到我們沒有付錢但有延宕我這樣理解對不對好那我要問第二個目前按照期程的節點應該要達到這個目的但是他沒有達標所以我不付錢我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目結匯48億嘛美金嘛就這三個嘛所以我再把剛才整理一下讓國人釐清納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備大概是300億美金\n但是300億美金不是我先付給他放在那裡等他交貨 沒有所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢但是沒拿到東西的是沒有這個情形但有沒有按照進度他該交東西了但是還沒有交所以我錢暫時hold住不付這個有 這個有多少呢有三大項目大概佔48億美金\n所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭說錢讓人家當ATM領錢了不付這個不交貨嘛回到我們面對重大的威脅回到我們在軍事採購上的困境動輒把全世界提供先進武器最重要的盟友去製造彼此的不信任去醜化他對我們台灣到底有沒有幫助我覺得國人要去思考所以回到這48億商業項目我請教部長\n我剛才把這個思路整理清楚 300億的美元的軍購案錢我們沒有 沒拿到或付錢 零而該一約給我們東西 還沒給 有延宕的有三樣 48億美金 但我錢不會付給他所以台灣並沒有當冤大頭 不會有付錢在那邊等東西 沒有這情形但現在有三個延宕 我們擔心影響戰力 第一個\n第一個就是AGM-1547AGM-1547呢原來美方其實長期我們軍方講要買這個其實相當時間了我還印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊那天聽到 我還聽到一個飛官說哇 這個終於賣了這一個現在原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運嘛\n那你們現在寫了一些理由啦最新構型我們跟美軍是同型的嘛最新型的沒有買舊的買中古的吧包圍我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代我們是block 3所以我們拿的是美軍現役的是block 2我們現在買到的是最新型的block 3所以要重新產線啊備料啊等等所以呢慢了我第一個問題是現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約\n包委員 剛剛您提到的106年同意公售之後其實我們一直還沒有完成預約因為我們的構型還有我們的F16V所以2017年那一次大概就是同意而已但還沒有雙方簽約就對了\n我們跟美軍他們有報價但是美軍他跟次合約商就是他的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成預約因為這個你們都有報告我們現在跑快一點這一個案子什麼時候美方的回覆什麼時候可以交往我們在這個月的記管會他們提到應該在這兩年就是在116年到117可以全數的交完所以等於是往後延了兩年到2028年是 我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116到117會全部交代\n2028年可以完全交運他有一個前提你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常所以說美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116到117因為你寫要重啟產線什麼當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆還有俄烏戰爭俄烏戰爭排序優先數據改變這些因素都解決了沒如果他沒有解決你怎麼能確認20182028可以交貨\n是 這些都是美軍他跟次合約商評估完目前我們準備要跟他完成預約那廠商提供的這個時程表好 我們下一個項目F16V大家最關注的當時是用了特別預算來採購嘛那原定的時程是2023年開始交第一架機\n然後到2026年全部要交到我們台灣那目前延宕我知道這是F16VK說等於是一個全新的機種了因為全新的機種它很多次系統要整合要測試所以當然會有一些困難就像一個全新的一個飛機一樣那\n第一個問題一樣目前你們預計今年會不會交機數量我先不問今年來不及交機今年沒辦法來不及交機那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷這些原因這些因素到底是否已經排除\n目前都已經逐漸在排除當中最主要的原因現在是在工程整合上面的問題像缺工缺料的部分這個我們也一再跟美軍做一個我簡單分享我們在生產管理上第一塊叫做技術問題嘛技術問題已經處理好了\n那第二個就是生產的排成啊作業流程啊現在是這一塊要把它更有效率嘛是 排成的這個部分已經在已經都回到原來的這個趕工的那所以我們可不可以講F16V原來遇到延宕的因素\n已經解決因為你用逐漸解決我就不曉得是在解決跟還沒解決之間在遊蕩嘛就我了解應該是在最後的這個測試飛行的這個部分要能夠順利所以他現在整合裝好之後要上去做測評嘛測試飛行完成生產線就開始生產\n生產線也同時在生產當中我們剛講的年底前應該可以組裝十架完成那現在就是再進一步再做一個測試配線年底組裝完成未必來得及交機因為還要做一個測試配線所以我剛才聽你們講是今年的交機可能不樂觀那你們預劃最後會完整交機的時間是什麼時候\n我們現在沒有辦法畫出一個明確的時間點但是我們能夠講的就是說整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架\n我那天看你們報告20小時加班同時50下組裝嘛所以他很有可能一個結果就是以前我們是3架5架慢慢交他可能會一次交一大批嘛如果測試順利的話我想就會有一個比較大的數量他這樣子的騎乘會影響到我們一件事情我們通常我們的人員的編裝啦培育啦會跟著交機騎乘這樣順順的來他現在慢了突然間給你一堆\n我們的飛行員跟後勤整個人的部分會不會有影響\n老師各位報告這個部分我們在早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃所以說人的補充的部分還有調配的部分因為我們希望能夠盡快形成戰力您剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F16 block兩棟的飛行員已經也提升到16V所以說這個人員的調配我們讓盡快能夠讓他一次能夠到位我剛講的問題就是說\n原來我們規劃是 你逐漸交機 我們的人逐漸跟上嘛這樣訓練的時程 量能才會夠可是如果交機慢 團隊大量給你那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊那這一個部分的調配 你們怎麼處理\n他即使是大量也不會說大量到我們沒辦法去負荷因為我們的人在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編程對 有關這個人員的部分我順帶給部長提醒一下我們陸軍的A機 AH-1 OH-58你也知道很多因為那個飛機要慢慢陸續要淘汰了OH-58D要淘汰了\nA機你們就延後啦我只是提醒飛行員的訓練不容易是國家重要資產那如果輕易的因為裝備沒有跟上就讓飛行員離開現場這個對將來如果有新的飛機的話我們在籌貨人的話其實會我覺得會有點可惜這些都是國家優秀的資產人跟裝備我認為人還更重要所以這些飛行官不要動輒就是大量的讓他移走或者移去飛無人機\n飛官飛官去飛無人機在尊嚴上跟待遇上他們不會接受的我最後請教我最後一分鐘請教第三個項目延宕的是這個Mk48我們Mk48呢這一個我們買到是\n那個Mod 6還是Mod 7 應該是6的嘛 第六型的嘛因為第七型是美軍最新的 我們是用現役的那本來是26年 也就是明年要完成交運那現在呢 延後到什麼時候可以交貨\n跟委員報告那因為美國要能夠強化這個產線跟供應他已經重新的產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去那預計是在會在這個115年他會開始有陸續來做一個也就明年開始會陸續交貨那因為原來是2023到2026嘛那如果明年才陸續交貨我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延所以最後的節點的時間會什麼時候\n最後面的節點時間應該會在這個117年到118年做最後結案美方有沒有什麼替代方案他先把現役的先借我們用因為有潛艦沒有重型魚雷這個是開玩笑啊這個也列入他們一個替代方案讓我們的戰力先補時嘛那將來交貨的時候再還給他因為是他慢的不是我們慢的因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題還不見得是外面承包商喔\n都有但是主要是因為承包商的供應當初的那個量沒有需求量沒有辦法預估到這個時間關係我是建議國防部好有關這個因為納稅人的錢我們對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付但那個所有的\n有一些在惡意的公結 有的是好像顯龍國防部都沒有在管錢或者讓台美之間的信任產生裂痕 這個沒有必要講對了我們改正 講錯了要提出來我們根本沒有付錢放在那邊等貨\n我們是按照節點付錢你慢我們錢就不給你台灣不肯當冤大頭而台灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖我們的採購真的有它的困難在這困難下如果輕率的去說出國防預算太多不需要國防預算\n除了對不起國軍長期的努力以外是把2300萬人的安全放在什麼地方我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲我們的安全要靠自己的努力還有國際的氛圍 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.469 --> 00:25.554\n麻煩請部長請部長部長早其實台灣軍購或者投資國防為什麼我們需要加大投資以及為什麼我們會有滿滿的困難我想長期在關心這個領域\n\n00:27.125 --> 00:51.310\n我們很多人在討論這個議題都忘記了前提是什麼我們沒事喜歡花一億兩億一千億去投資國防嗎是因為什麼我們面對威脅嘛那威脅我們的是誰全世界就一個國家宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家全世界就他而中國的軍備增加狀況部長有沒有掌握\n\n00:52.966 --> 01:08.708\n我想他都會陸續以兩倍的這個軍匪增長的速度來增加表面的數據他還有黑數我光用他表面數據至少過去連續四年每年已超過7%的幅度成長今年達到史上最高8兆\n\n01:11.103 --> 01:34.276\n應該我講的是過去十年對那我現在只算他的帳面上的我還沒有把他的武警準軍事化還有黑術我沒有算進去我光從中國公布的數據到2025年八兆習近平剛接任的時候2013年他們的帳面上的軍費支出是6300億人民幣\n\n01:37.694 --> 02:06.138\n到現在已經是一兆多所以中國是倍增的方式然後我們是他威脅的重中之重所以有人說台灣的國防預算太多了你怎麼不去跟老共講啊拿起棍棒打我們的是中國耶我們只不過想架起一個盾牌門上上個鎖家裡裝個保全讓自己的家人可以安心一點嫌我們做太多叫我們放下武器\n\n02:07.512 --> 02:34.485\n侵略者放下武器才有和平守衛者放下武器就滅國了那我在請教部長我們為什麼不到處比價來來來法國來跟我比一下價英國來跟我比一下價美國來比一下價我們買到便宜的交貨快的我們為什麼沒辦法這樣子像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便人家韓國為什麼可以買這一家的引擎要川普可以\n\n02:34.932 --> 02:59.625\n供應它核子燃料做潛艇我們為什麼不能你有答案啦這個答案是常識嘛我想應該委員大家都很清楚就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛原因也是因為中國嘛有人講台灣買舊東西貴東西當然那個時代已經過去了我們現在買幾乎都現衣裝備但我們軍事採購會這麼困難\n\n03:02.026 --> 03:25.595\n我們不是買方市場我們是賣方市場因為我們可以取得的現代化最新型的軍事裝備來源受限而受限的原因是任何國家跟台灣打交道中國就要制裁這個制裁那個這是原因啊你不把這兩個特殊的原因我們面對極大的威脅我們也面對極大的封鎖單純用好像在買賣一樣看我們面對軍購的困難對國軍不公平\n\n03:30.206 --> 03:57.702\n對我們負責採購的降臨也不公平我這樣講應該算持平吧所以我要接下來問的是幾個簡單的問題然後後來我們再討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法即時履約第一個問題是大家一直在講的我們台灣到底有沒有丟六千億放在美國那邊然後什麼都沒有拿到我們目前對美軍購已經付錢但是沒有拿到貨的到底是有沒有\n\n03:59.207 --> 04:23.696\n錢已經給了但是我沒有拿到貨的我們目前所有的案項裡面從96年開始的I3新購跟I2性能提升到最後一個案子TPS拐拐拐巴總共加起來是300餘億美元這是我們軍購的總母數啦歷年來我們總共結匯了188億餘美元\n\n04:28.598 --> 04:31.561\n結會的意思就是付出去的結會應該是匯到美國匯到美國是放在我國帳戶還是放在美方帳戶有一些\n\n04:41.946 --> 05:07.316\n方委員這個部分會先進到他的FRB帳戶然後美方再依照他的產制期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面但是我剛剛提的188億餘美元裡面有很多都已經實行完畢了包括1700多億你說這樣講這些數據會產生一個誤解就我看到你們的報告我理解的就是按照合約\n\n05:08.536 --> 05:17.943\n他拿錢沒有給我們的其實是沒有因為我們台灣沒有當運大頭啊我不會提早把錢放在那邊等你交貨嘛所以按照合約\n\n05:19.318 --> 05:42.544\n我們已經付錢但是他沒有一約交貨的目前其實是沒有但是有沒有延宕有慢的有慢的部分就是說我按照合約你這個時候應該要做到哪裡了但是你還沒有達到所以我錢也不能讓你扣走嘛所以付錢不交貨沒有但是時間到了該付錢你要交貨\n\n05:43.584 --> 06:11.943\n他沒有到我們沒有付錢但有延宕我這樣理解對不對好那我要問第二個目前按照期程的節點應該要達到這個目的但是他沒有達標所以我不付錢我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目結匯48億嘛美金嘛就這三個嘛所以我再把剛才整理一下讓國人釐清納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備大概是300億美金\n\n06:13.724 --> 06:34.043\n但是300億美金不是我先付給他放在那裡等他交貨沒有所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢但是沒拿到東西的是沒有這個情形但有沒有按照進度他該交東西了但是還沒有交所以我錢暫時hold住不付這個有這個有多少呢有三大項目大概佔48億美金\n\n06:35.805 --> 07:04.946\n所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭說錢讓人家當ATM領錢了不付這個不交貨嘛回到我們面對重大的威脅回到我們在軍事採購上的困境動輒把全世界提供先進武器最重要的盟友去製造彼此的不信任去醜化他對我們台灣到底有沒有幫助我覺得國人要去思考所以回到這48億商業項目我請教部長\n\n07:06.121 --> 07:30.338\n我剛才把這個思路整理清楚300億的美元的軍購案錢我們沒有沒拿到或付錢零而該一約給我們東西還沒給有延宕的有三樣48億美金但我錢不會付給他所以台灣並沒有當冤大頭不會有付錢在那邊等東西沒有這情形但現在有三個延宕我們擔心影響戰力第一個\n\n07:32.162 --> 07:58.602\n第一個就是AGM-1547AGM-1547呢原來美方其實長期我們軍方講要買這個其實相當時間了我還印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊那天聽到我還聽到一個飛官說哇這個終於賣了這一個現在原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運嘛\n\n08:00.046 --> 08:27.165\n那你們現在寫了一些理由啦最新構型我們跟美軍是同型的嘛最新型的沒有買舊的買中古的吧包圍我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代我們是block3所以我們拿的是美軍現役的是block2我們現在買到的是最新型的block3所以要重新產線啊備料啊等等所以呢慢了我第一個問題是現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約\n\n08:28.988 --> 08:45.099\n包委員剛剛您提到的106年同意公售之後其實我們一直還沒有完成預約因為我們的構型還有我們的F16V所以2017年那一次大概就是同意而已但還沒有雙方簽約就對了\n\n08:46.820 --> 09:15.731\n我們跟美軍他們有報價但是美軍他跟次合約商就是他的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成預約因為這個你們都有報告我們現在跑快一點這一個案子什麼時候美方的回覆什麼時候可以交往我們在這個月的記管會他們提到應該在這兩年就是在116年到117可以全數的交完所以等於是往後延了兩年到2028年是我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116到117會全部交代\n\n09:16.471 --> 09:39.988\n2028年可以完全交運他有一個前提你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常所以說美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116到117因為你寫要重啟產線什麼當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆還有俄烏戰爭俄烏戰爭排序優先數據改變這些因素都解決了沒如果他沒有解決你怎麼能確認20182028可以交貨\n\n09:42.210 --> 10:02.622\n是這些都是美軍他跟次合約商評估完目前我們準備要跟他完成預約那廠商提供的這個時程表好我們下一個項目F16V大家最關注的當時是用了特別預算來採購嘛那原定的時程是2023年開始交第一架機\n\n10:03.763 --> 10:21.698\n然後到2026年全部要交到我們台灣那目前延宕我知道這是F16VK說等於是一個全新的機種了因為全新的機種它很多次系統要整合要測試所以當然會有一些困難就像一個全新的一個飛機一樣那\n\n10:23.922 --> 10:41.352\n第一個問題一樣目前你們預計今年會不會交機數量我先不問今年來不及交機今年沒辦法來不及交機那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷這些原因這些因素到底是否已經排除\n\n10:42.279 --> 10:57.098\n目前都已經逐漸在排除當中最主要的原因現在是在工程整合上面的問題像缺工缺料的部分這個我們也一再跟美軍做一個我簡單分享我們在生產管理上第一塊叫做技術問題嘛技術問題已經處理好了\n\n11:00.743 --> 11:15.615\n那第二個就是生產的排成啊作業流程啊現在是這一塊要把它更有效率嘛是排成的這個部分已經在已經都回到原來的這個趕工的那所以我們可不可以講F16V原來遇到延宕的因素\n\n11:16.235 --> 11:34.631\n已經解決因為你用逐漸解決我就不曉得是在解決跟還沒解決之間在遊蕩嘛就我了解應該是在最後的這個測試飛行的這個部分要能夠順利所以他現在整合裝好之後要上去做測評嘛測試飛行完成生產線就開始生產\n\n11:35.411 --> 11:59.210\n生產線也同時在生產當中我們剛講的年底前應該可以組裝十架完成那現在就是再進一步再做一個測試配線年底組裝完成未必來得及交機因為還要做一個測試配線所以我剛才聽你們講是今年的交機可能不樂觀那你們預劃最後會完整交機的時間是什麼時候\n\n12:01.553 --> 12:09.357\n我們現在沒有辦法畫出一個明確的時間點但是我們能夠講的就是說整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架\n\n12:11.906 --> 12:40.975\n我那天看你們報告20小時加班同時50下組裝嘛所以他很有可能一個結果就是以前我們是3架5架慢慢交他可能會一次交一大批嘛如果測試順利的話我想就會有一個比較大的數量他這樣子的騎乘會影響到我們一件事情我們通常我們的人員的編裝啦培育啦會跟著交機騎乘這樣順順的來他現在慢了突然間給你一堆\n\n12:42.290 --> 12:48.989\n我們的飛行員跟後勤整個人的部分會不會有影響\n\n12:50.213 --> 13:15.529\n老師各位報告這個部分我們在早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃所以說人的補充的部分還有調配的部分因為我們希望能夠盡快形成戰力您剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F16block兩棟的飛行員已經也提升到16V所以說這個人員的調配我們讓盡快能夠讓他一次能夠到位我剛講的問題就是說\n\n13:16.730 --> 13:32.882\n原來我們規劃是你逐漸交機我們的人逐漸跟上嘛這樣訓練的時程量能才會夠可是如果交機慢團隊大量給你那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊那這一個部分的調配你們怎麼處理\n\n13:34.523 --> 13:57.168\n他即使是大量也不會說大量到我們沒辦法去負荷因為我們的人在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編程對有關這個人員的部分我順帶給部長提醒一下我們陸軍的A機AH-1OH-58你也知道很多因為那個飛機要慢慢陸續要淘汰了OH-58D要淘汰了\n\n13:58.188 --> 14:26.999\nA機你們就延後啦我只是提醒飛行員的訓練不容易是國家重要資產那如果輕易的因為裝備沒有跟上就讓飛行員離開現場這個對將來如果有新的飛機的話我們在籌貨人的話其實會我覺得會有點可惜這些都是國家優秀的資產人跟裝備我認為人還更重要所以這些飛行官不要動輒就是大量的讓他移走或者移去飛無人機\n\n14:28.660 --> 14:41.608\n飛官飛官去飛無人機在尊嚴上跟待遇上他們不會接受的我最後請教我最後一分鐘請教第三個項目延宕的是這個Mk48我們Mk48呢這一個我們買到是\n\n14:47.071 --> 15:04.702\n那個Mod6還是Mod7應該是6的嘛第六型的嘛因為第七型是美軍最新的我們是用現役的那本來是26年也就是明年要完成交運那現在呢延後到什麼時候可以交貨\n\n15:06.333 --> 15:34.459\n跟委員報告那因為美國要能夠強化這個產線跟供應他已經重新的產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去那預計是在會在這個115年他會開始有陸續來做一個也就明年開始會陸續交貨那因為原來是2023到2026嘛那如果明年才陸續交貨我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延所以最後的節點的時間會什麼時候\n\n15:35.613 --> 16:02.575\n最後面的節點時間應該會在這個117年到118年做最後結案美方有沒有什麼替代方案他先把現役的先借我們用因為有潛艦沒有重型魚雷這個是開玩笑啊這個也列入他們一個替代方案讓我們的戰力先補時嘛那將來交貨的時候再還給他因為是他慢的不是我們慢的因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題還不見得是外面承包商喔\n\n16:03.654 --> 16:19.809\n都有但是主要是因為承包商的供應當初的那個量沒有需求量沒有辦法預估到這個時間關係我是建議國防部好有關這個因為納稅人的錢我們對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付但那個所有的\n\n16:20.430 --> 16:34.538\n有一些在惡意的公結有的是好像顯龍國防部都沒有在管錢或者讓台美之間的信任產生裂痕這個沒有必要講對了我們改正講錯了要提出來我們根本沒有付錢放在那邊等貨\n\n16:35.865 --> 16:52.287\n我們是按照節點付錢你慢我們錢就不給你台灣不肯當冤大頭而台灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖我們的採購真的有它的困難在這困難下如果輕率的去說出國防預算太多不需要國防預算\n\n16:54.844 --> 17:05.549\n除了對不起國軍長期的努力以外是把2300萬人的安全放在什麼地方我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲我們的安全要靠自己的努力還有國際的氛圍謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.469,"end":25.554,"text":"麻煩請部長請部長部長早其實台灣軍購或者投資國防為什麼我們需要加大投資以及為什麼我們會有滿滿的困難我想長期在關心這個領域"},{"start":27.125,"end":51.31,"text":"我們很多人在討論這個議題都忘記了前提是什麼我們沒事喜歡花一億兩億一千億去投資國防嗎是因為什麼我們面對威脅嘛那威脅我們的是誰全世界就一個國家宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家全世界就他而中國的軍備增加狀況部長有沒有掌握"},{"start":52.966,"end":68.708,"text":"我想他都會陸續以兩倍的這個軍匪增長的速度來增加表面的數據他還有黑數我光用他表面數據至少過去連續四年每年已超過7%的幅度成長今年達到史上最高8兆"},{"start":71.103,"end":94.276,"text":"應該我講的是過去十年對 那我現在只算他的帳面上的我還沒有把他的武警 準軍事化還有黑術我沒有算進去我光從中國公布的數據到2025年 八兆習近平剛接任的時候2013年他們的帳面上的軍費支出是6300億人民幣"},{"start":97.694,"end":126.138,"text":"到現在已經是一兆多所以中國是倍增的方式然後我們是他威脅的重中之重所以有人說台灣的國防預算太多了你怎麼不去跟老共講啊拿起棍棒打我們的是中國耶我們只不過想架起一個盾牌門上上個鎖家裡裝個保全讓自己的家人可以安心一點嫌我們做太多叫我們放下武器"},{"start":127.512,"end":154.485,"text":"侵略者放下武器才有和平守衛者放下武器就滅國了那我在請教部長我們為什麼不到處比價來來來法國來跟我比一下價英國來跟我比一下價美國來比一下價我們買到便宜的交貨快的我們為什麼沒辦法這樣子像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便人家韓國為什麼可以買這一家的引擎要川普可以"},{"start":154.932,"end":179.625,"text":"供應它核子燃料做潛艇我們為什麼不能你有答案啦這個答案是常識嘛我想應該委員大家都很清楚就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛原因也是因為中國嘛有人講台灣買舊東西貴東西當然那個時代已經過去了我們現在買幾乎都現衣裝備但我們軍事採購會這麼困難"},{"start":182.026,"end":205.595,"text":"我們不是買方市場我們是賣方市場因為我們可以取得的現代化最新型的軍事裝備來源受限而受限的原因是任何國家跟台灣打交道中國就要制裁這個制裁那個這是原因啊你不把這兩個特殊的原因我們面對極大的威脅我們也面對極大的封鎖單純用好像在買賣一樣看我們面對軍購的困難對國軍不公平"},{"start":210.206,"end":237.702,"text":"對我們負責採購的降臨也不公平我這樣講應該算持平吧所以我要接下來問的是幾個簡單的問題然後後來我們再討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法即時履約第一個問題是大家一直在講的我們台灣到底有沒有丟六千億放在美國那邊然後什麼都沒有拿到我們目前對美軍購已經付錢但是沒有拿到貨的到底是有沒有"},{"start":239.207,"end":263.696,"text":"錢已經給了 但是我沒有拿到貨的我們目前所有的案項裡面從96年開始的I3新購跟I2性能提升到最後一個案子TPS拐拐拐巴總共加起來是300餘億美元這是我們軍購的總母數啦歷年來我們總共結匯了188億餘美元"},{"start":268.598,"end":271.561,"text":"結會的意思就是付出去的結會應該是匯到美國匯到美國是放在我國帳戶還是放在美方帳戶有一些"},{"start":281.946,"end":307.316,"text":"方委員這個部分會先進到他的FRB帳戶然後美方再依照他的產制期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面但是我剛剛提的188億餘美元裡面有很多都已經實行完畢了包括1700多億你說這樣講這些數據會產生一個誤解就我看到你們的報告我理解的就是按照合約"},{"start":308.536,"end":317.943,"text":"他拿錢沒有給我們的其實是沒有因為我們台灣沒有當運大頭啊我不會提早把錢放在那邊等你交貨嘛所以按照合約"},{"start":319.318,"end":342.544,"text":"我們已經付錢但是他沒有一約交貨的目前其實是沒有但是有沒有延宕 有慢的有慢的部分就是說我按照合約你這個時候應該要做到哪裡了但是你還沒有達到所以我錢也不能讓你扣走嘛所以付錢不交貨 沒有但是時間到了該付錢你要交貨"},{"start":343.584,"end":371.943,"text":"他沒有到我們沒有付錢但有延宕我這樣理解對不對好那我要問第二個目前按照期程的節點應該要達到這個目的但是他沒有達標所以我不付錢我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目結匯48億嘛美金嘛就這三個嘛所以我再把剛才整理一下讓國人釐清納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備大概是300億美金"},{"start":373.724,"end":394.043,"text":"但是300億美金不是我先付給他放在那裡等他交貨 沒有所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢但是沒拿到東西的是沒有這個情形但有沒有按照進度他該交東西了但是還沒有交所以我錢暫時hold住不付這個有 這個有多少呢有三大項目大概佔48億美金"},{"start":395.805,"end":424.946,"text":"所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭說錢讓人家當ATM領錢了不付這個不交貨嘛回到我們面對重大的威脅回到我們在軍事採購上的困境動輒把全世界提供先進武器最重要的盟友去製造彼此的不信任去醜化他對我們台灣到底有沒有幫助我覺得國人要去思考所以回到這48億商業項目我請教部長"},{"start":426.121,"end":450.338,"text":"我剛才把這個思路整理清楚 300億的美元的軍購案錢我們沒有 沒拿到或付錢 零而該一約給我們東西 還沒給 有延宕的有三樣 48億美金 但我錢不會付給他所以台灣並沒有當冤大頭 不會有付錢在那邊等東西 沒有這情形但現在有三個延宕 我們擔心影響戰力 第一個"},{"start":452.162,"end":478.602,"text":"第一個就是AGM-1547AGM-1547呢原來美方其實長期我們軍方講要買這個其實相當時間了我還印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊那天聽到 我還聽到一個飛官說哇 這個終於賣了這一個現在原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運嘛"},{"start":480.046,"end":507.165,"text":"那你們現在寫了一些理由啦最新構型我們跟美軍是同型的嘛最新型的沒有買舊的買中古的吧包圍我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代我們是block 3所以我們拿的是美軍現役的是block 2我們現在買到的是最新型的block 3所以要重新產線啊備料啊等等所以呢慢了我第一個問題是現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約"},{"start":508.988,"end":525.099,"text":"包委員 剛剛您提到的106年同意公售之後其實我們一直還沒有完成預約因為我們的構型還有我們的F16V所以2017年那一次大概就是同意而已但還沒有雙方簽約就對了"},{"start":526.82,"end":555.731,"text":"我們跟美軍他們有報價但是美軍他跟次合約商就是他的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成預約因為這個你們都有報告我們現在跑快一點這一個案子什麼時候美方的回覆什麼時候可以交往我們在這個月的記管會他們提到應該在這兩年就是在116年到117可以全數的交完所以等於是往後延了兩年到2028年是 我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116到117會全部交代"},{"start":556.471,"end":579.988,"text":"2028年可以完全交運他有一個前提你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常所以說美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116到117因為你寫要重啟產線什麼當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆還有俄烏戰爭俄烏戰爭排序優先數據改變這些因素都解決了沒如果他沒有解決你怎麼能確認20182028可以交貨"},{"start":582.21,"end":602.622,"text":"是 這些都是美軍他跟次合約商評估完目前我們準備要跟他完成預約那廠商提供的這個時程表好 我們下一個項目F16V大家最關注的當時是用了特別預算來採購嘛那原定的時程是2023年開始交第一架機"},{"start":603.763,"end":621.698,"text":"然後到2026年全部要交到我們台灣那目前延宕我知道這是F16VK說等於是一個全新的機種了因為全新的機種它很多次系統要整合要測試所以當然會有一些困難就像一個全新的一個飛機一樣那"},{"start":623.922,"end":641.352,"text":"第一個問題一樣目前你們預計今年會不會交機數量我先不問今年來不及交機今年沒辦法來不及交機那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷這些原因這些因素到底是否已經排除"},{"start":642.279,"end":657.098,"text":"目前都已經逐漸在排除當中最主要的原因現在是在工程整合上面的問題像缺工缺料的部分這個我們也一再跟美軍做一個我簡單分享我們在生產管理上第一塊叫做技術問題嘛技術問題已經處理好了"},{"start":660.743,"end":675.615,"text":"那第二個就是生產的排成啊作業流程啊現在是這一塊要把它更有效率嘛是 排成的這個部分已經在已經都回到原來的這個趕工的那所以我們可不可以講F16V原來遇到延宕的因素"},{"start":676.235,"end":694.631,"text":"已經解決因為你用逐漸解決我就不曉得是在解決跟還沒解決之間在遊蕩嘛就我了解應該是在最後的這個測試飛行的這個部分要能夠順利所以他現在整合裝好之後要上去做測評嘛測試飛行完成生產線就開始生產"},{"start":695.411,"end":719.21,"text":"生產線也同時在生產當中我們剛講的年底前應該可以組裝十架完成那現在就是再進一步再做一個測試配線年底組裝完成未必來得及交機因為還要做一個測試配線所以我剛才聽你們講是今年的交機可能不樂觀那你們預劃最後會完整交機的時間是什麼時候"},{"start":721.553,"end":729.357,"text":"我們現在沒有辦法畫出一個明確的時間點但是我們能夠講的就是說整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架"},{"start":731.906,"end":760.975,"text":"我那天看你們報告20小時加班同時50下組裝嘛所以他很有可能一個結果就是以前我們是3架5架慢慢交他可能會一次交一大批嘛如果測試順利的話我想就會有一個比較大的數量他這樣子的騎乘會影響到我們一件事情我們通常我們的人員的編裝啦培育啦會跟著交機騎乘這樣順順的來他現在慢了突然間給你一堆"},{"start":762.29,"end":768.989,"text":"我們的飛行員跟後勤整個人的部分會不會有影響"},{"start":770.213,"end":795.529,"text":"老師各位報告這個部分我們在早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃所以說人的補充的部分還有調配的部分因為我們希望能夠盡快形成戰力您剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F16 block兩棟的飛行員已經也提升到16V所以說這個人員的調配我們讓盡快能夠讓他一次能夠到位我剛講的問題就是說"},{"start":796.73,"end":812.882,"text":"原來我們規劃是 你逐漸交機 我們的人逐漸跟上嘛這樣訓練的時程 量能才會夠可是如果交機慢 團隊大量給你那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊那這一個部分的調配 你們怎麼處理"},{"start":814.523,"end":837.168,"text":"他即使是大量也不會說大量到我們沒辦法去負荷因為我們的人在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編程對 有關這個人員的部分我順帶給部長提醒一下我們陸軍的A機 AH-1 OH-58你也知道很多因為那個飛機要慢慢陸續要淘汰了OH-58D要淘汰了"},{"start":838.188,"end":866.999,"text":"A機你們就延後啦我只是提醒飛行員的訓練不容易是國家重要資產那如果輕易的因為裝備沒有跟上就讓飛行員離開現場這個對將來如果有新的飛機的話我們在籌貨人的話其實會我覺得會有點可惜這些都是國家優秀的資產人跟裝備我認為人還更重要所以這些飛行官不要動輒就是大量的讓他移走或者移去飛無人機"},{"start":868.66,"end":881.608,"text":"飛官飛官去飛無人機在尊嚴上跟待遇上他們不會接受的我最後請教我最後一分鐘請教第三個項目延宕的是這個Mk48我們Mk48呢這一個我們買到是"},{"start":887.071,"end":904.702,"text":"那個Mod 6還是Mod 7 應該是6的嘛 第六型的嘛因為第七型是美軍最新的 我們是用現役的那本來是26年 也就是明年要完成交運那現在呢 延後到什麼時候可以交貨"},{"start":906.333,"end":934.459,"text":"跟委員報告那因為美國要能夠強化這個產線跟供應他已經重新的產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去那預計是在會在這個115年他會開始有陸續來做一個也就明年開始會陸續交貨那因為原來是2023到2026嘛那如果明年才陸續交貨我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延所以最後的節點的時間會什麼時候"},{"start":935.613,"end":962.575,"text":"最後面的節點時間應該會在這個117年到118年做最後結案美方有沒有什麼替代方案他先把現役的先借我們用因為有潛艦沒有重型魚雷這個是開玩笑啊這個也列入他們一個替代方案讓我們的戰力先補時嘛那將來交貨的時候再還給他因為是他慢的不是我們慢的因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題還不見得是外面承包商喔"},{"start":963.654,"end":979.809,"text":"都有但是主要是因為承包商的供應當初的那個量沒有需求量沒有辦法預估到這個時間關係我是建議國防部好有關這個因為納稅人的錢我們對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付但那個所有的"},{"start":980.43,"end":994.538,"text":"有一些在惡意的公結 有的是好像顯龍國防部都沒有在管錢或者讓台美之間的信任產生裂痕 這個沒有必要講對了我們改正 講錯了要提出來我們根本沒有付錢放在那邊等貨"},{"start":995.865,"end":1012.287,"text":"我們是按照節點付錢你慢我們錢就不給你台灣不肯當冤大頭而台灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖我們的採購真的有它的困難在這困難下如果輕率的去說出國防預算太多不需要國防預算"},{"start":1014.844,"end":1025.549,"text":"除了對不起國軍長期的努力以外是把2300萬人的安全放在什麼地方我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲我們的安全要靠自己的努力還有國際的氛圍 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時49分）休息50分鐘都可以。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。其實臺灣軍購或者投資國防為什麼需要加大投資？為什麼我們會有滿滿的困難？我想長期在關心這個領域的都知道，只是很多人在討論這個議題時都忘記了前提是什麼！我們沒事喜歡花一億、兩億、一千億去投資國防嗎？是因為什麼？因為我們面對威脅！"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：威脅我們的是誰？"],["顧部長立雄：中國。"],["王委員定宇：全世界只有一個國家，宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家，全世界只有他！對中國的軍備增加狀況，部長有沒有掌握？"],["顧部長立雄：他陸續以兩倍的軍費增長速度在增加。"],["王委員定宇：這是表面的數據，他還有黑數。我光用表面數據來看，至少過去連續四年，每年以超過7%的幅度成長，今年更達到史上最高，八兆！"],["顧部長立雄：對，我講的是過去十年呈兩倍數的成長。"],["王委員定宇：我現在只算帳面上的，我還沒有把武警準軍事化算進去，還有黑數沒有算進去。光算中國公布的數據，到2025年是八兆！習近平剛接任的時候是2013年，他們帳面上的軍費支出是6,300億人民幣，到現在已經一兆多，所以中國是以倍增的方式在增加，而我們是他威脅對象的重中之重。有人說臺灣的國防預算太多了，這話你怎麼不去跟老共講？拿起棍棒要打我們的是中國，我們只不過是想架起盾牌，在門上上個鎖，在家裡裝個保全，讓自己的家人可以安心一點。結果嫌我們做太多，叫我們放下武器？侵略者放下武器才有和平，守衛者放下武器就滅國了！","我再請教部長，我們為什麼不到處比價？來、來、來，法國來跟我比一下價，英國來跟我比一下價，美國來比一下價，這樣我們可以買到便宜的，交貨快的，我們為什麼沒辦法像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便？韓國為什麼可以買這家的引擎，還要川普供應核子燃料做潛艇？我們為什麼不能？你有答案吧？這個答案是常識嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：我想委員和大家都很清楚。"],["王委員定宇：就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛！原因也是因為中國嘛！有人講臺灣買舊東西、貴東西，當然，那個時代已經過去了，我們現在買的幾乎都是現役裝備。但我們軍事採購之所以會這麼困難，是因為我們不是買方市場，而是賣方市場，因為我們可以取得的現代化、最新型的軍事裝備來源受限，而受限的原因是：任何國家跟臺灣打交道，中國就要制裁這個、制裁那個，這就是原因啊！你不把這兩個特殊的原因──我們面對極大的威脅、我們也面對極大的封鎖，單純用買賣一樣的眼光來看我們面對軍購的困難，這對國軍不公平，對我們負責採購的將領也不公平，我這樣講應該算持平吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是、是。"],["王委員定宇：接下來我要問幾個簡單的問題，然後我們再來討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法及時履約。第一個問題是大家一直在講的，臺灣到底有沒有丟6,000億在美國那邊，然後什麼都沒有拿到？我們目前對美軍購已經付錢，但沒有拿到貨的到底有沒有？也就是錢已經給了，但是沒有拿到貨。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，戰規司司長簡要說明一下。我們目前所有的案項裡面，從96年開始的愛三新購與愛二性能提升，到最後一個案子TPS-77/78，總共加起來是三百餘億美元……"],["王委員定宇：這是我們軍購的總母數。"],["黃司長文啓：歷年來我們總共結匯了一百八十八億餘美元……"],["王委員定宇：結匯的意思就付出去的？"],["黃司長文啓：對，那是付出去的。"],["顧部長立雄：結匯應該是匯到美國。"],["黃司長文啓：對，匯到美國。"],["顧部長立雄：雖是匯到美國，但……"],["王委員定宇：是放在我國帳戶，還是放在美方帳戶？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，這部分會先進到FRB帳戶，然後美方再依照產製期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面。但是我剛剛講的一百八十八億餘美元，裡面有很多都已經實行完畢了，包括一千七百多億……"],["王委員定宇：你講這些數據會產生一個誤解。就我看到你們的報告來說，我理解的就是：按照合約他拿錢卻沒有給我們的，其實沒有！因為臺灣沒有當冤大頭，不會提早把錢放在那邊等交貨。所以按照合約，我們已經付錢，而他沒有依約交貨的，目前其實是沒有，但是有沒有延宕？有慢的部分就是按照合約他這個時候應該要做到哪裡了，但是他還沒有達到，所以我錢也不能讓他扣走嘛！所以付錢不交貨的沒有，但是時間到了，該付錢他要交貨，他沒有到，我們沒有付錢，但有延宕，我這樣理解對不對？"],["黃司長文啓：是。"],["王委員定宇：好，那我再問第二個問題。目前按照期程的節點，應該要達到這個目的，但是他沒有達標，所以我不付錢，我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目，結匯48億美金，就這三個嘛！"],["黃司長文啓：對，就三個。"],["王委員定宇：我再把剛剛講的整理一下，讓國人釐清，納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼。我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備，大概是300億美金，但300億美金不是錢先付給他，放在那裡等他交貨，沒有！所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢，但是沒拿到東西的？其實是沒有這個情形。但有沒有按照進度，他該交東西了，但是還沒有交，所以我錢暫時hold住不付，這個有，這個有多少呢？有三大項目，大概占48億美金。所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭，並沒有讓人家當ATM，領錢了卻不交貨嘛！回到我們面對重大的威脅，回到我們在軍事採購上的困境，動輒把全世界提供先進武器的最重要盟友去製造彼此的不信任、去醜化他，對我們臺灣到底有沒有幫助？我覺得國人要去思考。","回到這48億的三個項目，我請教部長，我剛剛把這個思路整理清楚，300億美元的軍購案，我們並沒有沒拿到貨就付錢，這方面的金額是零；而該依約給我們東西還沒給、有延宕的有三項，總共48億美金，但我們錢不會付給他，所以臺灣並沒有當冤大頭，沒有付錢在那邊等東西，沒有這種情形。但現在有三個延宕，我們擔心會影響戰力，第一個就是AGM-154C，我們軍方長期以來想要買這個，其實相當時間了，我還有印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候，我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊，那天我還聽到一個飛官說：哇！這個終於賣了。原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運嘛！"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們現在寫了一些理由，其中包括最新構型，我們跟美軍是同型、最新型的，沒有買舊的、買中古的吧！"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代，我們是Block III。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們拿的是最新型，美軍現役的是Block II，我們現在買到的是最新型的Block III，所以要重啟產線、備料等等，也因此慢了。我第一個問題是，現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，剛剛您提到的106年同意供售之後，其實我們一直還沒有完成議約，因為我們的構型還有我們的F-16V一直在做更改。"],["王委員定宇：所以106年（2017年）那一次大概就是同意而已，但還沒有雙方簽約就對了？"],["李參謀長慶然：是。我們跟美軍他們有報價，但是美軍跟他們的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成議約，那……"],["王委員定宇：因為這個你們都有報告，我們現在跑快一點。這一個案子美方回復什麼時候可以交貨？"],["李參謀長慶然：在這個月的計管會，他們提到應該在這兩年，就是在116年到117年可以全數交完。"],["王委員定宇：所以等於是往後延了兩年，到2028年。"],["李參謀長慶然：是，我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116年到117年會全部交完。"],["王委員定宇：好，2028年可以完全交運，他有一個前提，你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常，所以美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116年到117年……"],["王委員定宇：因為你提到要重啟產線什麼的，當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆啊！"],["李參謀長慶然：還有俄烏戰爭……"],["王委員定宇：俄烏戰爭的排序優先順序改變嘛！"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["王委員定宇：這些因素都解決了沒？如果他沒有解決，你怎麼能確認2028年可以交貨？"],["李參謀長慶然：這些都是美軍跟次合約商評估完的，目前我們準備要跟他完成議約，這是廠商提供的時程表。"],["王委員定宇：好，我們下一個項目F-16V是大家最關注的，當時是用了特別預算來採購，原訂的時程是2023年開始交第一架機，然後到2026年全部要交到我們臺灣，但目前延宕。我知道F-16V其實等於是一個全新的機種了，因為全新的機種有很多次系統要整合、要測試，所以當然會有一些困難，就像一個全新的飛機一樣。第一個問題一樣，目前你們預計今年會不會交機？數量我先不問。"],["李參謀長慶然：今年來不及交機。"],["王委員定宇：今年沒辦法，來不及交機？"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["王委員定宇：那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷的因素是否已經排除？"],["李參謀長慶然：目前都已經逐漸在排除當中……"],["王委員定宇：逐漸是有還是……"],["李參謀長慶然：現在最主要的原因是在工程整合上面的問題，像缺工、缺料的部分，我們也一再跟美軍做……"],["王委員定宇：我們簡單分類，在生產管理上，第一塊叫做技術問題，技術問題已經處理好了。"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["王委員定宇：第二個就是生產的排程、作業流程，現在是這一塊要讓它更有效率嘛？"],["李參謀長慶然：是，排程的這個部分已經都回到原來趕工的狀態。"],["王委員定宇：那我們可不可以講F-16V原來延宕的因素已經解決？因為你用逐漸解決，我就不曉得是解決或是還沒解決，這之間在遊盪。"],["顧部長立雄：就我了解，應該是在最後的測試飛行的部分要能夠順利。"],["王委員定宇：所以它現在整合裝好之後，要上去做測評，測試飛行完成，生產線就開始生產？"],["顧部長立雄：生產線也同時在生產當中。"],["王委員定宇：它要跟上來，但第一架的原型要測試。"],["顧部長立雄：組裝的部分如我們剛剛講的，年底前應該可以組裝10架完成，現在就是再進一步做測試飛行。"],["王委員定宇：年底組裝完成，但未必來得及交機。"],["顧部長立雄：因為還要做一個測試飛行。"],["王委員定宇：它還要測試嘛！所以我剛才聽你們講是今年交機可能不樂觀，那你們預劃最後完整交機的時間是什麼時候？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在沒有辦法劃出一個明確的時間點，但是我們能夠講的就是，整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架。"],["王委員定宇：對，我看你們報告說20小時加班，同時50架組裝，所以以前我們是3架、5架慢慢交，這次它很有可能會一次交一大批嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：如果測試順利的話，我想就會有一個比較大的數量。"],["王委員定宇：它這樣子的期程會影響到我們一件事情，通常我們人員的編裝、培育會跟著交機期程順順的來，它現在慢了，然後突然間給你一堆，我們的飛行員跟後勤等等人的部分會不會有影響？"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員報告，這個部分我們早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃，包括人的補充還有調配的部分，因為我們希望能夠儘快形成戰力，您剛剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點，很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F-16 Block20的飛行員也提升到16V，所以我們儘快讓人員的調派能夠一次到位。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才講的問題是說，原來我們的規劃是逐漸交機，我們的人逐漸跟上嘛！這樣訓練的時程、量能才會夠，可是如果它交機慢了，又突然間大量給你，那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊！這個部分的調配你們怎麼處理？"],["李參謀長慶然：它即使是大量也不會大量到我們沒辦法去負荷，因為我們在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編成。"],["王委員定宇：有關人員的部分我順帶提醒一下部長，我們陸軍的A機，如AH-1，還有OH-58，你也知道那些飛機陸續要淘汰了，OH-58D要淘汰了，A機你們有延後，我只是提醒，飛行員的訓練不容易，是國家重要資產，如果因為裝備沒有跟上，就輕易的讓飛行員離開現場，這個對於將來如果有新的飛機，我們再籌獲人的話，我覺得會有點可惜，這些都是國家優秀的資產，人跟裝備相較，我認為人還更重要，所以不要動輒大量的讓這些飛行官移走，或者移去飛無人機，飛官去飛無人機，在尊嚴上跟待遇上，他們不會接受的啦！","我最後1分鐘請教，第三個延宕的項目是MK-48，MK-48我們買到的應該是Mod6吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：對。"],["王委員定宇：應該是第六型的，因為第七型是美軍最新的，我們是用現役的。本來是2026年，也就明年要完成交運，那現在延後到什麼時候可以交貨？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，美國為了強化這個產線跟供應，它已經重新把產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去，預計會在115年開始陸續來做一個……"],["王委員定宇：也就明年開始會陸續交貨？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為原來是2023年到2026年，如果明年才陸續交貨，我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以最後節點的時間會是什麼時候？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：最後面的節點時間應該會在117年到118年做最後結案。"],["王委員定宇：美方有沒有什麼替代方案，比如先把現役的先借我們用？因為有潛艦，沒有重型魚雷，這個是開玩笑啊！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，這個也列入他們一個替代方案的選項……"],["王委員定宇：讓我們的戰力先補實嘛！將來交貨的時候再還給它，因為是它慢了，不是我們慢了，因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題，還不見得是外面承包商喔！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：都有，但是主要是因為承包商當初供應的需求量沒有辦法預估到那麼大，已經在克服中。"],["王委員定宇：好，時間關係，我是建議國防部，因為這些是納稅人的錢，對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付，但是有一些惡意的攻訐，好像顯得國防部都沒有在管錢，或者讓臺美之間的信任產生裂痕，這個沒有必要。講對了，我們改正；講錯了，要提出來，我們根本沒有付錢，放在那邊等貨，我們是按照節點付錢，你慢，我們錢就不給你，臺灣不可能當冤大頭。而臺灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖，我們的採購真的有其困難，在這困難下，如果輕率地說出國防預算太多、不需要國防預算，除了對不起國軍長期努力以外，是把2,300萬人的安全放在什麼地方？我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲，我們的安全要靠自己的努力，還有國際的氛圍，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：我們休息5分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時12分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}