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{\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 660.583, \"end\": 660.843, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 660.843, \"end\": 661.023, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 661.023, \"end\": 661.203, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 661.203, \"end\": 661.423, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 661.423, \"end\": 661.724, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"均\", \"start\": 661.724, \"end\": 661.964, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 661.964, \"end\": 662.744, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 662.744, \"end\": 663.604, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 663.604, \"end\": 664.144, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"F\", \"start\": 664.144, \"end\": 664.404, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 664.404, \"end\": 664.624, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"列\", \"start\": 664.624, 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\"不然這個我要去查一下都有新聞好不好這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下每年能夠去產製平均來說就是23到26架今年等一下我會講這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能嘛對不對有的但是我們粗算的話落馬公司每年Roughly23到26這個就是目前的狀況\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 669.568, \"end\": 669.728, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 669.728, \"end\": 670.008, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 670.008, \"end\": 670.109, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 670.109, \"end\": 670.249, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 670.249, \"end\": 670.349, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 670.349, \"end\": 670.589, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 670.589, \"end\": 670.609, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 670.609, \"end\": 671.45, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 671.45, \"end\": 671.63, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 671.63, \"end\": 671.79, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 671.79, \"end\": 672.21, \"score\": 0.925}, 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1224.825, \"end\": 1224.865, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1224.865, \"end\": 1224.885, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1224.885, \"end\": 1224.905, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1224.905, \"end\": 1224.925, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1224.925, \"end\": 1224.945, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 1224.945, \"end\": 1224.965, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1224.965, \"end\": 1224.985, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 1224.985, \"end\": 1225.005, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1225.005, \"end\": 1225.025, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1225.025, \"end\": 1225.065, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1225.065, \"end\": 1225.085, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 1225.085, \"end\": 1225.165, \"score\": 0.357}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1225.165, \"end\": 1225.185, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1225.185, \"end\": 1225.245, \"score\": 0.189}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1225.245, \"end\": 1225.265, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1225.265, \"end\": 1225.285, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1225.285, \"end\": 1225.305, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1225.305, \"end\": 1225.325, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 1225.325, \"end\": 1225.425, \"score\": 0.518}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 1225.425, \"end\": 1225.445, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1225.445, \"end\": 1225.465, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,121 --> 00:00:06,444\n謝謝主席那我們是不是可以請這個國防部顧部長請顧部長是學長\n\n2\n00:00:14,219 --> 00:00:37,489\n部長好現在大家都很關心這個F16V的延宕的問題喔那主要在上個禮拜的時候我有詢問這個主任長相關的這個議題那結果他第一時間呢他主動回覆說要向這個他沒有說是向哪一方啦但是因為這是一個軍購案嘛所以他當時講說他要提出法律的訴訟要求賠償並且要求返還不當得利\n\n3\n00:00:39,930 --> 00:00:50,470\n那因為它是一個軍購案如果真的這麼做的話那就是政府對政府是否我們在卓院長的這個說明之下是要向美國政府來提告或者是說他搞錯啦\n\n4\n00:00:51,967 --> 00:01:12,136\n呃跟委員報告我想呃相關軍購的案子是這個國家對國家政府對政府的所以我知道啊在發價書裡面就規定就是說呃爭議的話要按協商解決協商嘛那提告的部分因為院長他說要提告他說要返還不當要求返還不當得獵\n\n5\n00:01:14,105 --> 00:01:30,074\n這個如果是關於有不當得利的狀況的話比如說像去年這個雷神公司它有涉及到詐欺的話那美國政府呢我問的是嚴當嘛那時候我沒有跟他講到就是說詐欺現在突然講到說詐欺我很緊張耶你這樣講\n\n6\n00:01:31,635 --> 00:01:58,305\n因為院長可能他講的這個情況是在講說有不當得利那不當得利的話沒有我在你要回到我們的這個詢答的過程當中我在詢問的問題是F16V的延宕的問題那他呢就主動講說他要提出法律的訴訟那包含提告包含要求賠償包含不當得利的返還那以現在這個F16V的狀況有需要做到這樣嗎\n\n7\n00:01:59,905 --> 00:02:10,453\n我個人覺得沒有你覺得有嗎F16V當然到現在為止並沒有發生像雷神公司的那一個違法的不當得利的狀況是那有要提出訴訟嗎這沒有辦法提出訴訟的吧對吧就F16V這個案子是F16V的這個案子目前是沒有\n\n8\n00:02:17,398 --> 00:02:43,870\n好那因為我覺得呢要說清楚畢竟他就是我們的行政院長公然的說要這個等於是對美國提告這也引起大家不曉得風波所以先感謝我們院這個部長把這個事情講清楚不要再用這種方式然後呢讓其他我們這個跟我們互動的國家嚇一跳想說我美國要被台灣告了嗎這沒有這件事情再來院長後來呢就在最近的質詢裡面\n\n9\n00:02:45,171 --> 00:03:08,411\n他他突然講說戰機的數量是不能公開的這是錯誤的訊息吧呃我想呃院長的意思當時講的意思我在旁邊聽的意思他大概意思就是說實際的這個這些交互的一些狀況呢還是容有保留的一個空間那麼呃所以我想這就這個需要這樣保留這個空間嗎因為\n\n10\n00:03:09,472 --> 00:03:35,451\n各國到底有多少的戰鬥機的這個數量都是公開的資料啊那我們當時在簽訂這個新式戰機特別預算的時候的金額那大家也都有規劃在立法院裡面也都有討論那呢每一年大概本來我們的這個預計要交機多少那這也都是不是機密的資料那為什麼在大院備詢的時候會突然變成是不能公開討論的事情啊\n\n11\n00:03:37,923 --> 00:03:54,376\n你覺得能夠公開討論嗎我想國防部這邊能夠跟委員報告的我們就盡量會跟委員報告那如果沒有辦法跟委員報告還是要請委員能夠體諒這當然我們都會體諒但是我必須要再一次強調我相信部長你也知道每一個國家的\n\n12\n00:03:56,476 --> 00:04:12,367\n戰鬥機是幾架這是屬於公開資訊你網路上就查得到了我們行政院長竟然說不能公開討論這個我是匪夷所思喔那進到今天的正題喔因為前面我只是把最近的這個幾個大院的質詢喔捋清楚不要讓大家再有誤會\n\n13\n00:04:13,368 --> 00:04:34,131\n那我們現在要講2400多億的這個新式戰機的特別預算裡面我想問一下頭期款我們現在付出去多少錢就說到這個美國聯邦儲備銀行因為我們是一起一起這樣子去付款嘛那我們現在目前付出的是多少金額啊來可以幫忙部長補充細節的部分\n\n14\n00:04:35,923 --> 00:04:53,894\n包委員我們目前就161block崴東這個案子目前已經結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我們在去年第一季的時候也就是113年第一季的時候我們已經跟美方協調在他進入趕上之前我們暫緩付款所以目前付的就是這麼多錢所以總額是\n\n15\n00:04:57,095 --> 00:05:15,741\n總額是目前我們結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我問一下喔47億那為什麼有一次在這個賴世保委員質詢的時候我有看到先前你們的這個也有出一個新聞喔那你們講說是六成左右這個六成的數字可不可以幫我們說明一下這六成是哪六成啊\n\n16\n00:05:16,977 --> 00:05:40,383\n你去查新聞都有那個47億2500餘萬除以80是差不多六成所以是六成嘛因為你講這個錢因為我是這樣想你把48億這個東西你去跟這個所謂的2400多億這個你去比好像數字很小但其實實際上面交付的我們用比例來算的話坦白說他就是一個六成的數字我這樣講有錯嗎來可不可以幫我確認一下\n\n17\n00:05:44,461 --> 00:06:11,182\n這個是我們目前結會的結會的額度你再把整個過程再講清楚一次好不好給你一個就是不然我怕大家聽不太清楚你把它整個就是六成然後你剛剛講四十八億然後還有這個兩千四百多億好不好因為是美金嘛對不對對嗯四十八億美金是多少台幣啊包委員我們算一下算一下我知道啦我沒有在講什麼我是說我們把這個事情說清楚嘛來\n\n18\n00:06:13,603 --> 00:06:28,749\n48億美金多少台幣因為我現在都跟你講台幣的我們這樣子媒體要報導好了然後大家要了解好了比較清楚48億講了老半天人家以為台幣那很少啊48億美金那不一樣啊\n\n19\n00:06:29,807 --> 00:06:34,991\n那1400多億左右好1400多億所以六成嘛我們就講2400多億的這個F16V的經費就預算然後我們把它放到美國聯邦儲備銀行裡面是1440億左右的台幣對吧\n\n20\n00:06:51,084 --> 00:07:19,765\n六成現在不是全部都在美國聯邦儲備銀行那其實放到哪去了因為一開始的時候你交付交付的交付的點一開始我們在在簽約的時候百分之十五的簽約款當他成立了專案辦公室產線廢料之後他就會進到信託賬戶OK那後續現在進產線已經有五十架的飛機我們也必須依照這五十架的產制進程先支付他的產制費用所以頭期款是百分之十五\n\n21\n00:07:21,886 --> 00:07:37,239\n對15%是多少來金額提供一下我要都要講台幣喔不要再給我美金了台幣對台幣15%一開始的時候包圓我們一開始的時候我們第一年編列的預算是450億左右那後面還是依據\n\n22\n00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:54,109\n這個基本的款項因為我們已經編列了跟美方簽約那後續的部分就是依照美方他們的發料書的期程跟記帳單去支付所以我們現在就是整體來說呢就是提出去的錢是1440億月末是60%左右我再跟您確認一次大概是這個數字好的那這樣子的話\n\n23\n00:08:00,652 --> 00:08:12,246\n那以這樣子講1441台幣那這樣的話比如說我們剛剛講放到帳戶裡面那我可以拿出來嗎如果人家給我延宕交際的話\n\n24\n00:08:13,444 --> 00:08:37,558\n包委員他如果還沒有進到那個進度他就會放在聯邦儲備銀行對啊他放很久啊那一直放在那裡那等一下我問他放在那裡他給你利息嗎給你利息嘛對不對聯邦儲備銀行裡面是有按照美國的利率計算的利息他給你計算那請問一下那我們在目前來講的話我們以目前的利息來說那我們有額外的取得多少的利息說明一下吧\n\n25\n00:08:42,997 --> 00:09:09,281\n包委員我是主席局長按照目前的美國的會議大概4%到4.25%之間這個不一定綠綠就是4%到4.25%之間所以相關的利息要在因為每一次結會的額度他所你會後再提供給我們好不好因為如果今天你放在那裡然後沒有用到然後他有利息那利息是多少你要告訴我們這對解釋這件事情清楚對你們是有幫助的好不好\n\n26\n00:09:09,861 --> 00:09:35,206\n那但是呢這個1440億的台幣放在這個地方但我們目前交機制都沒有那我特別要講一下我想要問一下這個部長就您所知道的除了我國之外還有哪一些國家比我們還要早簽約然後呢也是在採購這個F16系列F16V之外之類的有多少國家\n\n27\n00:09:37,779 --> 00:10:02,371\n目前我們在之前跟我們同一個前後簽約的國家包括斯洛伐克、巴林跟希臘的升級案以及後面結構的新個案其實有四個國家巴林、斯洛伐克、保加利亞跟摩洛克那總共有因為他們比我們早簽約嘛對不對這都是我講的都是比我們早簽約的部分有幾家他們是也還沒有交付的\n\n28\n00:10:06,110 --> 00:10:24,141\n我跟您說我們放投影片給你看現在這個問題是這樣子的就是呢我們在2023年的時候是合約的簽署日然後66假對不對可是其實在比我們還要早簽約然後也還沒有交付的總共你可以看到還有62假\n\n29\n00:10:26,494 --> 00:10:35,728\n所以總共落馬這邊積欠的積欠就是全世界要跟他訂購的在我們之前就包含我們還有我們之前總體來說就有已經是129架左右了\n\n30\n00:10:39,659 --> 00:11:07,805\n是跟委員報告一下這個中間比較容易讓人家誤會的是雖然它都是block拐動但是裡面的細部的選項每一個國家都不一樣我知道我知道每一個國家都不一樣但是它還是必須它有因為每一個公司以洛馬來講它產能也是有限的嘛對不對那你應該很清楚來我們問一下洛馬公司每年平均的產製F16的F16系列的產能產能它們平均來說每年是產製幾家\n\n31\n00:11:09,568 --> 00:11:33,026\n不然這個我要去查一下都有新聞好不好這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下每年能夠去產製平均來說就是23到26架今年等一下我會講這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能嘛對不對有的但是我們粗算的話落馬公司每年Roughly23到26這個就是目前的狀況\n\n32\n00:11:34,212 --> 00:12:01,969\n那所以說呢官方它也是穩定的有達到每個月兩架年產約24架的這個節奏是有的是有的那所以呢我們看到上一張比我們還要早簽約的然後再加上我們的62加66這樣一共就129了在這129裡面那到現在如果我們要排成上去的話我們要如何能夠排得比人家還要前面呢\n\n33\n00:12:02,549 --> 00:12:21,845\n我們要如何在它每年只能生產大概20多架左右對不起12720多架左右的這個飛機每年平均產23到26架左右的這個狀況之下我還能夠我們認為明年可以拿到大量的飛機的交集\n\n34\n00:12:22,185 --> 00:12:27,969\n跟委員報告現在就是說在這個格林威爾這個的產線它所有產的都是我國的戰機它沒有在在這個格林威爾並沒有產其他國家的戰機所以剛剛已經報告了就是說我們現在看到的是生產線在線組裝的總共有50架飛機同時在線組裝它在線組裝50架對不對這是接下來我要跟您討論的事情因為我剛剛我們要先從它全部的產線來看\n\n35\n00:12:50,962 --> 00:13:19,214\n那因為今年他就有講說呢這個媒體有報導啦那今年他們會試圖的製造比較多的F16V當然也跟我們的產線的有關就是這個您剛剛講的50架可是問題是來現在目前F16V他們在整體來上面來說除了產線現在擴大之外他有沒有其他軟體方面的問題是導致於他目前一直延宕的原因軟體方面出了哪些問題\n\n36\n00:13:20,194 --> 00:13:42,884\n你們有掌握嗎包委員這個項目的話我們光我們國家這個第一個生產的就是設計的這個系統就超過30項所以說每一項我們就跟剛剛您提的那四個國家的飛機其實它的系統跟我們國家是不一樣我們國家這是全世界第一個F-16全數位化的一個系統\n\n37\n00:13:44,065 --> 00:14:12,888\n所以嗎它是不是有軟體上的不同所以我從產能開始講前面一個問題第一個問題我問的是落馬公司它每年能夠做多少的產能第二個問題我要講的就是軟體部分我們目前的F16V如您所說的有很多新的東西要放進來它軟體部分是不是有瑕疵我舉例來講它的發動機的內組件系統是不是美方有告訴我們它目前有瑕疵還在修正\n\n38\n00:14:14,667 --> 00:14:33,860\n老委員這個我們已經澄清過目前沒有都是按正常的那請問他們戰機內的內建式的電戰系統的測試狀況有沒有落後有落後這個部分是電戰測試電戰系統的測試的部分它是放在最後面因為要等飛機整個系統設計完這是有排序它的工序\n\n39\n00:14:34,540 --> 00:14:50,466\n沒有錯所以我們要講的是今天國防部的報告只告訴我們說呢現在有50架飛機呢正在趕至當中但是就算它這個50架飛機它生產線它做了做要做多久我們還不知道等一下下一個我會開始講人力的問題\n\n40\n00:14:51,606 --> 00:15:05,077\n錯了我還不知道但後續他們在我們剛剛講的電站系統上面的這些測試跟生產進度的落後軟體的問題那什麼時候能夠解決呢我們也不知道我們也沒有辦法掌握不是嗎\n\n41\n00:15:05,816 --> 00:15:21,567\n報告委員這個就跟之前我們第一批F-16交際儀是這樣主攻向就是飛機全部飛回來它的次攻向的部分我們會陸陸續續的它去做一些後面的修改跟研發對啊那所以就是又會拖到啊它是有一定的排程我知道啊沒辦法插到前面\n\n42\n00:15:21,667 --> 00:15:46,326\n我沒有要他插到前面去啊因為你一定要按照這個飛機的這個整個整個排依序去做嘛沒有人要他把它插到前面我只是告訴你說不是今天我們50架產線重新再開好像這個就只有做到這裡他後面還有整個這個電站的相關的細節要組合嘛等等這個我們講的軟體的問題最後我要談一個硬體不好意思主席我們再給我一點時間硬體來\n\n43\n00:15:49,088 --> 00:15:56,456\n今年呃洛瑪他們就有相關的這個新聞寫說呢這個要裁減員工啊\n\n44\n00:15:58,373 --> 00:16:17,444\n採檢員工那2024年落馬他們的預測是2025年要產36家的F16戰機2026年進一步增加但他們其實2025年上半年也只交付7家而已所以我們現在說美方正在全力趕工但是我所知道的我所詢問的狀況是\n\n45\n00:16:19,025 --> 00:16:35,532\n其實在美國他們的這個產線即便是全力敢攻但是人力不足你沒有掌握這個情況嗎請說包委員有我沒有掌握這個狀況那目前他們是專責在我們F16生產線上的已經超過200位這個是專責在F16生產線\n\n46\n00:16:38,933 --> 00:16:59,221\n對專責在我們生產線上的兩百位嘛對不對至少兩百位但是其實實際上面他們整體在建構這個F6V相關的這個人事上面還有能夠再更增加的空間還在找人對吧因為我知道他們從很多其他地方去調人過來因為人不夠\n\n47\n00:17:01,042 --> 00:17:20,720\n所以我要問的是說我們的F16B你覺得我們的F16B現在目前你說200個人然後產線這個再多增加時間去趕工那這樣的話明年2026年我們在特別條例結束之前那能夠交付的戰機架數能夠到一半嗎\n\n48\n00:17:22,072 --> 00:17:42,760\n這個我們會滾動次的修訂現在還沒有辦法明確的告訴委員好所以我剛剛人家都問說能不能夠全部交我才問一半而已30出頭價那都不知道那所以我們現在目前是不僅沒有辦法確定因為我覺得不可能啦66家都來基本不可能明年的話但明年總是要交出一個成績單吧\n\n49\n00:17:44,281 --> 00:18:01,327\n那我們在成績單的部分來說我們明年總是要給我們一個預估說那會來個幾架吧10架20架還是30架我們會跟美方每個月都會來進行這樣子相關的那你之前一定每個月也都有相關的檢討啊那都是零\n\n50\n00:18:02,352 --> 00:18:31,038\n沒有現在就是說剛剛已經講了組裝完畢之後還要進行這個測試對嘛所以我特別我們等測試配型確定之後我們比較能夠有把握跟委員報告我做一個我做一個結論好不好我覺得今天呢國防部的這個給我們的書面報告裡面你們只寫了在硬體上面然後呢產線要往上加你們只寫了說哎呀要加速趕工可是你們對於這個就算是50架他做完以後他後續還有\n\n51\n00:18:33,424 --> 00:18:50,429\n軟體的部分還有電站系統要整合跟測試的部分都沒有提及今天如果不是我在這裡問的話也沒有人要講那我覺得你如果我們今天在討論的今天的主題非常感謝周偉排這個案子就是在講說這些軍購案的延宕的問題\n\n52\n00:18:51,889 --> 00:18:57,354\n然後呢這些軍管延宕的問題你只講了硬體的部分你沒有講後續它的軟體它還有很多的難處啊我們本來就一直有講要做系統的一個測試的一個飛行的一個項目啊對啊不是啊你們這個今天的報告裡面你寫延宕的部分你們的解釋就是說我們這個現在已經有50架我沒看錯吧50架然後現在在趕工\n\n53\n00:19:15,268 --> 00:19:24,010\n但是我們剛剛講說他們現在目前在整個電站系統裡面的整合出現了測試落後的問題我剛剛講了這個你們也承認有這件事情但你們有寫在報告裡嗎這剛剛已經總部長已經講了這是一個工序的問題它不只是工序的問題啊它不只是工序的問題啊你這個軟體你也要成功它現在已經目前有一架是出場典禮的時候有了嗎只是沒有來我們這裡嘛對不對\n\n54\n00:19:42,313 --> 00:19:49,680\n那它到底這一架裡面它的這個電站系統的測試是成功還是還是有落後的這個事情你們也應該可以問得很清楚吧\n\n55\n00:19:54,069 --> 00:20:12,359\n那一架飛機是目前硬體的部分電站系統的硬體是分開測試那一架飛機上面是不具有電站你看吧那一架飛機上面不具有這個我知道它是兩件事所以我才要問你們不能只講一件事不講另外一件事嘛只有一半的話飛機怎麼飛對吧時間的關係之後有時間我再繼續跟你們討論好不好\n\n56\n00:20:17,102 --> 00:20:25,465\n但是我希望我們在報告上面要完整我不能說你不誠實但是你要完整大家才知道狀況就像剛剛講什麼48億很多人還以為台幣咧沒有美金我們講台幣就要對台幣講美金對美金所以是六成不是好像很少的樣子而且你放進去你也不能把它拿出來的這個事情也要跟人民報告清楚謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2121\t6444\t謝謝主席那我們是不是可以請這個國防部顧部長請顧部長是 學長\n14219\t37489\t部長好 現在大家都很關心這個F16V的延宕的問題喔那主要在上個禮拜的時候 我有詢問這個主任長相關的這個議題那結果他第一時間呢 他主動回覆說要向這個他沒有說是向哪一方啦 但是因為這是一個軍購案嘛所以他當時講說 他要提出法律的訴訟要求賠償 並且要求返還不當得利\n39930\t50470\t那因為它是一個軍購案如果真的這麼做的話那就是政府對政府是否我們在卓院長的這個說明之下是要向美國政府來提告或者是說他搞錯啦\n51967\t72136\t呃跟委員報告我想呃相關軍購的案子是這個國家對國家政府對政府的所以我知道啊在發價書裡面就規定就是說呃爭議的話要按協商解決協商嘛那提告的部分因為院長他說要提告他說要返還不當要求返還不當得獵\n74105\t90074\t這個如果是關於有不當得利的狀況的話比如說像去年這個雷神公司它有涉及到詐欺的話那美國政府呢我問的是嚴當嘛那時候我沒有跟他講到就是說詐欺現在突然講到說詐欺我很緊張耶你這樣講\n91635\t118305\t因為院長可能他講的這個情況是在講說有不當得利那不當得利的話沒有 我在你要回到我們的這個詢答的過程當中我在詢問的問題是F16V的延宕的問題那他呢就主動講說他要提出法律的訴訟那包含提告包含要求賠償包含不當得利的返還那以現在這個F16V的狀況有需要做到這樣嗎\n119905\t130453\t我個人覺得沒有 你覺得有嗎F16V當然到現在為止並沒有發生像雷神公司的那一個違法的不當得利的狀況是 那有要提出訴訟嗎這沒有辦法提出訴訟的吧 對吧就F16V這個案子是 F16V的這個案子目前是沒有\n137398\t163870\t好那因為我覺得呢要說清楚畢竟他就是我們的行政院長公然的說要這個等於是對美國提告這也引起大家不曉得風波所以先感謝我們院這個部長把這個事情講清楚不要再用這種方式然後呢讓其他我們這個跟我們互動的國家嚇一跳想說我美國要被台灣告了嗎這沒有這件事情再來院長後來呢就在最近的質詢裡面\n165171\t188411\t他他突然講說戰機的數量是不能公開的這是錯誤的訊息吧呃我想呃院長的意思當時講的意思我在旁邊聽的意思他大概意思就是說實際的這個這些交互的一些狀況呢還是容有保留的一個空間那麼呃所以我想這就這個需要這樣保留這個空間嗎因為\n189472\t215451\t各國到底有多少的戰鬥機的這個數量都是公開的資料啊那我們當時在簽訂這個新式戰機特別預算的時候的金額那大家也都有規劃在立法院裡面也都有討論那呢每一年大概本來我們的這個預計要交機多少那這也都是不是機密的資料那為什麼在大院備詢的時候會突然變成是不能公開討論的事情啊\n217923\t234376\t你覺得能夠公開討論嗎我想國防部這邊能夠跟委員報告的我們就盡量會跟委員報告那如果沒有辦法跟委員報告還是要請委員能夠體諒這當然我們都會體諒但是我必須要再一次強調我相信部長你也知道每一個國家的\n236476\t252367\t戰鬥機是幾架這是屬於公開資訊你網路上就查得到了我們行政院長竟然說不能公開討論這個我是匪夷所思喔那進到今天的正題喔因為前面我只是把最近的這個幾個大院的質詢喔捋清楚不要讓大家再有誤會\n253368\t274131\t那我們現在要講2400多億的這個新式戰機的特別預算裡面我想問一下頭期款我們現在付出去多少錢就說到這個美國聯邦儲備銀行因為我們是一起一起這樣子去付款嘛那我們現在目前付出的是多少金額啊來 可以幫忙部長補充細節的部分\n275923\t293894\t包委員我們目前就161 block 崴東這個案子目前已經結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我們在去年第一季的時候也就是113年第一季的時候我們已經跟美方協調在他進入趕上之前我們暫緩付款所以目前付的就是這麼多錢所以總額是\n297095\t315741\t總額是目前我們結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我問一下喔47億那為什麼有一次在這個賴世保委員質詢的時候我有看到先前你們的這個也有出一個新聞喔那你們講說是六成左右這個六成的數字可不可以幫我們說明一下這六成是哪六成啊\n316977\t340383\t你去查新聞都有那個47億2500餘萬除以80是差不多六成所以是六成嘛因為你講這個錢因為我是這樣想你把48億這個東西你去跟這個所謂的2400多億這個你去比好像數字很小但其實實際上面交付的我們用比例來算的話坦白說他就是一個六成的數字我這樣講有錯嗎來可不可以幫我確認一下\n344461\t371182\t這個是我們目前結會的結會的額度你再把整個過程再講清楚一次好不好給你一個就是不然我怕大家聽不太清楚你把它整個就是六成然後你剛剛講四十八億然後還有這個兩千四百多億好不好因為是美金嘛對不對對嗯四十八億美金是多少台幣啊包委員我們算一下算一下我知道啦我沒有在講什麼我是說我們把這個事情說清楚嘛來\n373603\t388749\t48億美金多少台幣因為我現在都跟你講台幣的我們這樣子媒體要報導好了然後大家要了解好了比較清楚48億講了老半天人家以為台幣那很少啊48億美金那不一樣啊\n389807\t394991\t那1400多億左右好1400多億所以六成嘛我們就講2400多億的這個F16V的經費就預算然後我們把它放到美國聯邦儲備銀行裡面是1440億左右的台幣對吧\n411084\t439765\t六成現在不是全部都在美國聯邦儲備銀行那其實放到哪去了因為一開始的時候你交付交付的交付的點一開始我們在在簽約的時候百分之十五的簽約款當他成立了專案辦公室產線廢料之後他就會進到信託賬戶OK那後續現在進產線已經有五十架的飛機我們也必須依照這五十架的產制進程先支付他的產制費用所以頭期款是百分之十五\n441886\t457239\t對15%是多少來金額提供一下我要都要講台幣喔不要再給我美金了台幣對台幣15%一開始的時候包圓我們一開始的時候我們第一年編列的預算是450億左右那後面還是依據\n458940\t474109\t這個基本的款項因為我們已經編列了跟美方簽約那後續的部分就是依照美方他們的發料書的期程跟記帳單去支付所以我們現在就是整體來說呢就是提出去的錢是1440億月末是60%左右我再跟您確認一次大概是這個數字好的那這樣子的話\n480652\t492246\t那以這樣子講1441台幣那這樣的話比如說我們剛剛講放到帳戶裡面那我可以拿出來嗎如果人家給我延宕交際的話\n493444\t517558\t包委員他如果還沒有進到那個進度他就會放在聯邦儲備銀行對啊他放很久啊那一直放在那裡那等一下我問他放在那裡他給你利息嗎給你利息嘛對不對聯邦儲備銀行裡面是有按照美國的利率計算的利息他給你計算那請問一下那我們在目前來講的話我們以目前的利息來說那我們有額外的取得多少的利息說明一下吧\n522997\t549281\t包委員我是主席局長 按照目前的美國的會議大概4%到4.25%之間這個不一定 綠綠就是4%到4.25%之間所以相關的利息要在因為每一次結會的額度他所你會後再提供給我們好不好因為如果今天你放在那裡然後沒有用到然後他有利息 那利息是多少你要告訴我們這對解釋這件事情清楚對你們是有幫助的好不好\n549861\t575206\t那但是呢這個1440億的台幣放在這個地方但我們目前交機制都沒有那我特別要講一下我想要問一下這個部長就您所知道的除了我國之外還有哪一些國家比我們還要早簽約然後呢也是在採購這個F16系列F16V之外之類的有多少國家\n577779\t602371\t目前我們在之前跟我們同一個前後簽約的國家包括斯洛伐克、巴林跟希臘的升級案以及後面結構的新個案其實有四個國家巴林、斯洛伐克、保加利亞跟摩洛克那總共有因為他們比我們早簽約嘛對不對這都是我講的都是比我們早簽約的部分有幾家他們是也還沒有交付的\n606110\t624141\t我跟您說我們放投影片給你看現在這個問題是這樣子的就是呢我們在2023年的時候是合約的簽署日然後66假對不對可是其實在比我們還要早簽約然後也還沒有交付的總共你可以看到還有62假\n626494\t635728\t所以總共落馬這邊積欠的積欠就是全世界要跟他訂購的在我們之前就包含我們還有我們之前總體來說就有已經是129架左右了\n639659\t667805\t是 跟委員報告一下這個中間比較容易讓人家誤會的是雖然它都是block拐動但是裡面的細部的選項每一個國家都不一樣我知道我知道每一個國家都不一樣但是它還是必須它有因為每一個公司以洛馬來講它產能也是有限的嘛 對不對那你應該很清楚來 我們問一下洛馬公司每年平均的產製F16的F16系列的產能產能 它們平均來說每年是產製幾家\n669568\t693026\t不然這個我要去查一下都有新聞好不好這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下每年能夠去產製平均來說就是23到26架今年等一下我會講這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能嘛對不對有的但是我們粗算的話落馬公司每年Roughly23到26這個就是目前的狀況\n694212\t721969\t那所以說呢官方它也是穩定的有達到每個月兩架年產約24架的這個節奏是有的是有的那所以呢我們看到上一張比我們還要早簽約的然後再加上我們的62加66這樣一共就129了在這129裡面那到現在如果我們要排成上去的話我們要如何能夠排得比人家還要前面呢\n722549\t741845\t我們要如何在它每年只能生產大概20多架左右對不起 127 20多架左右的這個飛機每年平均產23到26架左右的這個狀況之下我還能夠我們認為明年可以拿到大量的飛機的交集\n742185\t747969\t跟委員報告現在就是說在這個格林威爾這個的產線它所有產的都是我國的戰機它沒有在在這個格林威爾並沒有產其他國家的戰機所以剛剛已經報告了就是說我們現在看到的是生產線在線組裝的總共有50架飛機同時在線組裝它在線組裝50架對不對這是接下來我要跟您討論的事情因為我剛剛我們要先從它全部的產線來看\n770962\t799214\t那因為今年他就有講說呢這個媒體有報導啦那今年他們會試圖的製造比較多的F16V當然也跟我們的產線的有關就是這個您剛剛講的50架可是問題是來現在目前F16V他們在整體來上面來說除了產線現在擴大之外他有沒有其他軟體方面的問題是導致於他目前一直延宕的原因軟體方面出了哪些問題\n800194\t822884\t你們有掌握嗎包委員 這個項目的話我們 光我們國家這個第一個生產的就是設計的這個系統就超過30項所以說每一項我們就跟剛剛您提的那四個國家的飛機其實它的系統跟我們國家是不一樣我們國家這是全世界第一個F-16全數位化的一個系統\n824065\t852888\t所以嗎它是不是有軟體上的不同所以我從產能開始講前面一個問題第一個問題我問的是落馬公司它每年能夠做多少的產能第二個問題我要講的就是軟體部分我們目前的F16V如您所說的有很多新的東西要放進來它軟體部分是不是有瑕疵我舉例來講它的發動機的內組件系統是不是美方有告訴我們它目前有瑕疵還在修正\n854667\t873860\t老委員這個我們已經澄清過目前沒有都是按正常的那請問他們戰機內的內建式的電戰系統的測試狀況有沒有落後有落後這個部分是電戰測試電戰系統的測試的部分它是放在最後面因為要等飛機整個系統設計完這是有排序它的工序\n874540\t890466\t沒有錯所以我們要講的是今天國防部的報告只告訴我們說呢現在有50架飛機呢正在趕至當中但是就算它這個50架飛機它生產線它做了做要做多久我們還不知道等一下下一個我會開始講人力的問題\n891606\t905077\t錯了 我還不知道 但後續他們在我們剛剛講的 電站系統上面的這些測試跟生產進度的落後軟體的問題 那什麼時候能夠解決呢我們也不知道 我們也沒有辦法掌握 不是嗎\n905816\t921567\t報告委員這個就跟之前我們第一批F-16交際儀是這樣主攻向就是飛機全部飛回來它的次攻向的部分我們會陸陸續續的它去做一些後面的修改跟研發對啊那所以就是又會拖到啊它是有一定的排程我知道啊沒辦法插到前面\n921667\t946326\t我沒有要他插到前面去啊因為你一定要按照這個飛機的這個整個整個排依序去做嘛沒有人要他把它插到前面我只是告訴你說不是今天我們50架產線重新再開好像這個就只有做到這裡他後面還有整個這個電站的相關的細節要組合嘛等等這個我們講的軟體的問題最後我要談一個硬體不好意思主席我們再給我一點時間硬體來\n949088\t956456\t今年 呃 洛瑪他們就有相關的這個新聞寫說呢 這個要裁減員工啊\n958373\t977444\t採檢員工那2024年落馬他們的預測是2025年要產36家的F16戰機2026年進一步增加但他們其實2025年上半年也只交付7家而已所以我們現在說美方正在全力趕工但是我所知道的我所詢問的狀況是\n979025\t995532\t其實在美國他們的這個產線即便是全力敢攻但是人力不足你沒有掌握這個情況嗎請說包委員有我沒有掌握這個狀況那目前他們是專責在我們F16生產線上的已經超過200位這個是專責在F16生產線\n998933\t1019221\t對 專責在我們生產線上的兩百位嘛對不對至少兩百位但是其實實際上面他們整體在建構這個F6V相關的這個人事上面還有能夠再更增加的空間還在找人對吧因為我知道他們從很多其他地方去調人過來因為人不夠\n1021042\t1040720\t所以我要問的是說我們的F16B你覺得我們的F16B現在目前你說200個人然後產線這個再多增加時間去趕工那這樣的話明年2026年我們在特別條例結束之前那能夠交付的戰機架數能夠到一半嗎\n1042072\t1062760\t這個我們會滾動次的修訂現在還沒有辦法明確的告訴委員好所以我剛剛人家都問說能不能夠全部交我才問一半而已30出頭價那都不知道那所以我們現在目前是不僅沒有辦法確定因為我覺得不可能啦66家都來基本不可能明年的話但明年總是要交出一個成績單吧\n1064281\t1081327\t那我們在成績單的部分來說我們明年總是要給我們一個預估說那會來個幾架吧10架20架還是30架我們會跟美方每個月都會來進行這樣子相關的那你之前一定每個月也都有相關的檢討啊那都是零\n1082352\t1111038\t沒有現在就是說剛剛已經講了組裝完畢之後還要進行這個測試對嘛所以我特別我們等測試配型確定之後我們比較能夠有把握跟委員報告我做一個我做一個結論好不好我覺得今天呢國防部的這個給我們的書面報告裡面你們只寫了在硬體上面然後呢產線要往上加你們只寫了說哎呀要加速趕工可是你們對於這個就算是50架他做完以後他後續還有\n1113424\t1130429\t軟體的部分還有電站系統要整合跟測試的部分都沒有提及今天如果不是我在這裡問的話也沒有人要講那我覺得你如果我們今天在討論的今天的主題非常感謝周偉排這個案子就是在講說這些軍購案的延宕的問題\n1131889\t1137354\t然後呢這些軍管延宕的問題你只講了硬體的部分你沒有講後續它的軟體它還有很多的難處啊我們本來就一直有講要做系統的一個測試的一個飛行的一個項目啊對啊不是啊你們這個今天的報告裡面你寫延宕的部分你們的解釋就是說我們這個現在已經有50架我沒看錯吧50架然後現在在趕工\n1155268\t1164010\t但是我們剛剛講說他們現在目前在整個電站系統裡面的整合出現了測試落後的問題我剛剛講了這個你們也承認有這件事情但你們有寫在報告裡嗎這剛剛已經總部長已經講了這是一個工序的問題它不只是工序的問題啊它不只是工序的問題啊你這個軟體你也要成功它現在已經目前有一架是出場典禮的時候有了嗎只是沒有來我們這裡嘛對不對\n1182313\t1189680\t那它到底這一架裡面它的這個電站系統的測試是成功還是還是有落後的這個事情你們也應該可以問得很清楚吧\n1194069\t1212359\t那一架飛機是目前硬體的部分電站系統的硬體是分開測試那一架飛機上面是不具有電站你看吧那一架飛機上面不具有這個我知道它是兩件事所以我才要問你們不能只講一件事不講另外一件事嘛只有一半的話飛機怎麼飛對吧時間的關係之後有時間我再繼續跟你們討論好不好\n1217102\t1225465\t但是我希望我們在報告上面要完整我不能說你不誠實但是你要完整大家才知道狀況就像剛剛講什麼48億很多人還以為台幣咧沒有美金我們講台幣就要對台幣講美金對美金所以是六成不是好像很少的樣子而且你放進去你也不能把它拿出來的這個事情也要跟人民報告清楚謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我們是不是可以請這個國防部顧部長請顧部長是 學長\n部長好 現在大家都很關心這個F16V的延宕的問題喔那主要在上個禮拜的時候 我有詢問這個主任長相關的這個議題那結果他第一時間呢 他主動回覆說要向這個他沒有說是向哪一方啦 但是因為這是一個軍購案嘛所以他當時講說 他要提出法律的訴訟要求賠償 並且要求返還不當得利\n那因為它是一個軍購案如果真的這麼做的話那就是政府對政府是否我們在卓院長的這個說明之下是要向美國政府來提告或者是說他搞錯啦\n呃跟委員報告我想呃相關軍購的案子是這個國家對國家政府對政府的所以我知道啊在發價書裡面就規定就是說呃爭議的話要按協商解決協商嘛那提告的部分因為院長他說要提告他說要返還不當要求返還不當得獵\n這個如果是關於有不當得利的狀況的話比如說像去年這個雷神公司它有涉及到詐欺的話那美國政府呢我問的是嚴當嘛那時候我沒有跟他講到就是說詐欺現在突然講到說詐欺我很緊張耶你這樣講\n因為院長可能他講的這個情況是在講說有不當得利那不當得利的話沒有 我在你要回到我們的這個詢答的過程當中我在詢問的問題是F16V的延宕的問題那他呢就主動講說他要提出法律的訴訟那包含提告包含要求賠償包含不當得利的返還那以現在這個F16V的狀況有需要做到這樣嗎\n我個人覺得沒有 你覺得有嗎F16V當然到現在為止並沒有發生像雷神公司的那一個違法的不當得利的狀況是 那有要提出訴訟嗎這沒有辦法提出訴訟的吧 對吧就F16V這個案子是 F16V的這個案子目前是沒有\n好那因為我覺得呢要說清楚畢竟他就是我們的行政院長公然的說要這個等於是對美國提告這也引起大家不曉得風波所以先感謝我們院這個部長把這個事情講清楚不要再用這種方式然後呢讓其他我們這個跟我們互動的國家嚇一跳想說我美國要被台灣告了嗎這沒有這件事情再來院長後來呢就在最近的質詢裡面\n他他突然講說戰機的數量是不能公開的這是錯誤的訊息吧呃我想呃院長的意思當時講的意思我在旁邊聽的意思他大概意思就是說實際的這個這些交互的一些狀況呢還是容有保留的一個空間那麼呃所以我想這就這個需要這樣保留這個空間嗎因為\n各國到底有多少的戰鬥機的這個數量都是公開的資料啊那我們當時在簽訂這個新式戰機特別預算的時候的金額那大家也都有規劃在立法院裡面也都有討論那呢每一年大概本來我們的這個預計要交機多少那這也都是不是機密的資料那為什麼在大院備詢的時候會突然變成是不能公開討論的事情啊\n你覺得能夠公開討論嗎我想國防部這邊能夠跟委員報告的我們就盡量會跟委員報告那如果沒有辦法跟委員報告還是要請委員能夠體諒這當然我們都會體諒但是我必須要再一次強調我相信部長你也知道每一個國家的\n戰鬥機是幾架這是屬於公開資訊你網路上就查得到了我們行政院長竟然說不能公開討論這個我是匪夷所思喔那進到今天的正題喔因為前面我只是把最近的這個幾個大院的質詢喔捋清楚不要讓大家再有誤會\n那我們現在要講2400多億的這個新式戰機的特別預算裡面我想問一下頭期款我們現在付出去多少錢就說到這個美國聯邦儲備銀行因為我們是一起一起這樣子去付款嘛那我們現在目前付出的是多少金額啊來 可以幫忙部長補充細節的部分\n包委員我們目前就161 block 崴東這個案子目前已經結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我們在去年第一季的時候也就是113年第一季的時候我們已經跟美方協調在他進入趕上之前我們暫緩付款所以目前付的就是這麼多錢所以總額是\n總額是目前我們結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我問一下喔47億那為什麼有一次在這個賴世保委員質詢的時候我有看到先前你們的這個也有出一個新聞喔那你們講說是六成左右這個六成的數字可不可以幫我們說明一下這六成是哪六成啊\n你去查新聞都有那個47億2500餘萬除以80是差不多六成所以是六成嘛因為你講這個錢因為我是這樣想你把48億這個東西你去跟這個所謂的2400多億這個你去比好像數字很小但其實實際上面交付的我們用比例來算的話坦白說他就是一個六成的數字我這樣講有錯嗎來可不可以幫我確認一下\n這個是我們目前結會的結會的額度你再把整個過程再講清楚一次好不好給你一個就是不然我怕大家聽不太清楚你把它整個就是六成然後你剛剛講四十八億然後還有這個兩千四百多億好不好因為是美金嘛對不對對嗯四十八億美金是多少台幣啊包委員我們算一下算一下我知道啦我沒有在講什麼我是說我們把這個事情說清楚嘛來\n48億美金多少台幣因為我現在都跟你講台幣的我們這樣子媒體要報導好了然後大家要了解好了比較清楚48億講了老半天人家以為台幣那很少啊48億美金那不一樣啊\n那1400多億左右好1400多億所以六成嘛我們就講2400多億的這個F16V的經費就預算然後我們把它放到美國聯邦儲備銀行裡面是1440億左右的台幣對吧\n六成現在不是全部都在美國聯邦儲備銀行那其實放到哪去了因為一開始的時候你交付交付的交付的點一開始我們在在簽約的時候百分之十五的簽約款當他成立了專案辦公室產線廢料之後他就會進到信託賬戶OK那後續現在進產線已經有五十架的飛機我們也必須依照這五十架的產制進程先支付他的產制費用所以頭期款是百分之十五\n對15%是多少來金額提供一下我要都要講台幣喔不要再給我美金了台幣對台幣15%一開始的時候包圓我們一開始的時候我們第一年編列的預算是450億左右那後面還是依據\n這個基本的款項因為我們已經編列了跟美方簽約那後續的部分就是依照美方他們的發料書的期程跟記帳單去支付所以我們現在就是整體來說呢就是提出去的錢是1440億月末是60%左右我再跟您確認一次大概是這個數字好的那這樣子的話\n那以這樣子講1441台幣那這樣的話比如說我們剛剛講放到帳戶裡面那我可以拿出來嗎如果人家給我延宕交際的話\n包委員他如果還沒有進到那個進度他就會放在聯邦儲備銀行對啊他放很久啊那一直放在那裡那等一下我問他放在那裡他給你利息嗎給你利息嘛對不對聯邦儲備銀行裡面是有按照美國的利率計算的利息他給你計算那請問一下那我們在目前來講的話我們以目前的利息來說那我們有額外的取得多少的利息說明一下吧\n包委員我是主席局長 按照目前的美國的會議大概4%到4.25%之間這個不一定 綠綠就是4%到4.25%之間所以相關的利息要在因為每一次結會的額度他所你會後再提供給我們好不好因為如果今天你放在那裡然後沒有用到然後他有利息 那利息是多少你要告訴我們這對解釋這件事情清楚對你們是有幫助的好不好\n那但是呢這個1440億的台幣放在這個地方但我們目前交機制都沒有那我特別要講一下我想要問一下這個部長就您所知道的除了我國之外還有哪一些國家比我們還要早簽約然後呢也是在採購這個F16系列F16V之外之類的有多少國家\n目前我們在之前跟我們同一個前後簽約的國家包括斯洛伐克、巴林跟希臘的升級案以及後面結構的新個案其實有四個國家巴林、斯洛伐克、保加利亞跟摩洛克那總共有因為他們比我們早簽約嘛對不對這都是我講的都是比我們早簽約的部分有幾家他們是也還沒有交付的\n我跟您說我們放投影片給你看現在這個問題是這樣子的就是呢我們在2023年的時候是合約的簽署日然後66假對不對可是其實在比我們還要早簽約然後也還沒有交付的總共你可以看到還有62假\n所以總共落馬這邊積欠的積欠就是全世界要跟他訂購的在我們之前就包含我們還有我們之前總體來說就有已經是129架左右了\n是 跟委員報告一下這個中間比較容易讓人家誤會的是雖然它都是block拐動但是裡面的細部的選項每一個國家都不一樣我知道我知道每一個國家都不一樣但是它還是必須它有因為每一個公司以洛馬來講它產能也是有限的嘛 對不對那你應該很清楚來 我們問一下洛馬公司每年平均的產製F16的F16系列的產能產能 它們平均來說每年是產製幾家\n不然這個我要去查一下都有新聞好不好這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下每年能夠去產製平均來說就是23到26架今年等一下我會講這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能嘛對不對有的但是我們粗算的話落馬公司每年Roughly23到26這個就是目前的狀況\n那所以說呢官方它也是穩定的有達到每個月兩架年產約24架的這個節奏是有的是有的那所以呢我們看到上一張比我們還要早簽約的然後再加上我們的62加66這樣一共就129了在這129裡面那到現在如果我們要排成上去的話我們要如何能夠排得比人家還要前面呢\n我們要如何在它每年只能生產大概20多架左右對不起 127 20多架左右的這個飛機每年平均產23到26架左右的這個狀況之下我還能夠我們認為明年可以拿到大量的飛機的交集\n跟委員報告現在就是說在這個格林威爾這個的產線它所有產的都是我國的戰機它沒有在在這個格林威爾並沒有產其他國家的戰機所以剛剛已經報告了就是說我們現在看到的是生產線在線組裝的總共有50架飛機同時在線組裝它在線組裝50架對不對這是接下來我要跟您討論的事情因為我剛剛我們要先從它全部的產線來看\n那因為今年他就有講說呢這個媒體有報導啦那今年他們會試圖的製造比較多的F16V當然也跟我們的產線的有關就是這個您剛剛講的50架可是問題是來現在目前F16V他們在整體來上面來說除了產線現在擴大之外他有沒有其他軟體方面的問題是導致於他目前一直延宕的原因軟體方面出了哪些問題\n你們有掌握嗎包委員 這個項目的話我們 光我們國家這個第一個生產的就是設計的這個系統就超過30項所以說每一項我們就跟剛剛您提的那四個國家的飛機其實它的系統跟我們國家是不一樣我們國家這是全世界第一個F-16全數位化的一個系統\n所以嗎它是不是有軟體上的不同所以我從產能開始講前面一個問題第一個問題我問的是落馬公司它每年能夠做多少的產能第二個問題我要講的就是軟體部分我們目前的F16V如您所說的有很多新的東西要放進來它軟體部分是不是有瑕疵我舉例來講它的發動機的內組件系統是不是美方有告訴我們它目前有瑕疵還在修正\n老委員這個我們已經澄清過目前沒有都是按正常的那請問他們戰機內的內建式的電戰系統的測試狀況有沒有落後有落後這個部分是電戰測試電戰系統的測試的部分它是放在最後面因為要等飛機整個系統設計完這是有排序它的工序\n沒有錯所以我們要講的是今天國防部的報告只告訴我們說呢現在有50架飛機呢正在趕至當中但是就算它這個50架飛機它生產線它做了做要做多久我們還不知道等一下下一個我會開始講人力的問題\n錯了 我還不知道 但後續他們在我們剛剛講的 電站系統上面的這些測試跟生產進度的落後軟體的問題 那什麼時候能夠解決呢我們也不知道 我們也沒有辦法掌握 不是嗎\n報告委員這個就跟之前我們第一批F-16交際儀是這樣主攻向就是飛機全部飛回來它的次攻向的部分我們會陸陸續續的它去做一些後面的修改跟研發對啊那所以就是又會拖到啊它是有一定的排程我知道啊沒辦法插到前面\n我沒有要他插到前面去啊因為你一定要按照這個飛機的這個整個整個排依序去做嘛沒有人要他把它插到前面我只是告訴你說不是今天我們50架產線重新再開好像這個就只有做到這裡他後面還有整個這個電站的相關的細節要組合嘛等等這個我們講的軟體的問題最後我要談一個硬體不好意思主席我們再給我一點時間硬體來\n今年 呃 洛瑪他們就有相關的這個新聞寫說呢 這個要裁減員工啊\n採檢員工那2024年落馬他們的預測是2025年要產36家的F16戰機2026年進一步增加但他們其實2025年上半年也只交付7家而已所以我們現在說美方正在全力趕工但是我所知道的我所詢問的狀況是\n其實在美國他們的這個產線即便是全力敢攻但是人力不足你沒有掌握這個情況嗎請說包委員有我沒有掌握這個狀況那目前他們是專責在我們F16生產線上的已經超過200位這個是專責在F16生產線\n對 專責在我們生產線上的兩百位嘛對不對至少兩百位但是其實實際上面他們整體在建構這個F6V相關的這個人事上面還有能夠再更增加的空間還在找人對吧因為我知道他們從很多其他地方去調人過來因為人不夠\n所以我要問的是說我們的F16B你覺得我們的F16B現在目前你說200個人然後產線這個再多增加時間去趕工那這樣的話明年2026年我們在特別條例結束之前那能夠交付的戰機架數能夠到一半嗎\n這個我們會滾動次的修訂現在還沒有辦法明確的告訴委員好所以我剛剛人家都問說能不能夠全部交我才問一半而已30出頭價那都不知道那所以我們現在目前是不僅沒有辦法確定因為我覺得不可能啦66家都來基本不可能明年的話但明年總是要交出一個成績單吧\n那我們在成績單的部分來說我們明年總是要給我們一個預估說那會來個幾架吧10架20架還是30架我們會跟美方每個月都會來進行這樣子相關的那你之前一定每個月也都有相關的檢討啊那都是零\n沒有現在就是說剛剛已經講了組裝完畢之後還要進行這個測試對嘛所以我特別我們等測試配型確定之後我們比較能夠有把握跟委員報告我做一個我做一個結論好不好我覺得今天呢國防部的這個給我們的書面報告裡面你們只寫了在硬體上面然後呢產線要往上加你們只寫了說哎呀要加速趕工可是你們對於這個就算是50架他做完以後他後續還有\n軟體的部分還有電站系統要整合跟測試的部分都沒有提及今天如果不是我在這裡問的話也沒有人要講那我覺得你如果我們今天在討論的今天的主題非常感謝周偉排這個案子就是在講說這些軍購案的延宕的問題\n然後呢這些軍管延宕的問題你只講了硬體的部分你沒有講後續它的軟體它還有很多的難處啊我們本來就一直有講要做系統的一個測試的一個飛行的一個項目啊對啊不是啊你們這個今天的報告裡面你寫延宕的部分你們的解釋就是說我們這個現在已經有50架我沒看錯吧50架然後現在在趕工\n但是我們剛剛講說他們現在目前在整個電站系統裡面的整合出現了測試落後的問題我剛剛講了這個你們也承認有這件事情但你們有寫在報告裡嗎這剛剛已經總部長已經講了這是一個工序的問題它不只是工序的問題啊它不只是工序的問題啊你這個軟體你也要成功它現在已經目前有一架是出場典禮的時候有了嗎只是沒有來我們這裡嘛對不對\n那它到底這一架裡面它的這個電站系統的測試是成功還是還是有落後的這個事情你們也應該可以問得很清楚吧\n那一架飛機是目前硬體的部分電站系統的硬體是分開測試那一架飛機上面是不具有電站你看吧那一架飛機上面不具有這個我知道它是兩件事所以我才要問你們不能只講一件事不講另外一件事嘛只有一半的話飛機怎麼飛對吧時間的關係之後有時間我再繼續跟你們討論好不好\n但是我希望我們在報告上面要完整我不能說你不誠實但是你要完整大家才知道狀況就像剛剛講什麼48億很多人還以為台幣咧沒有美金我們講台幣就要對台幣講美金對美金所以是六成不是好像很少的樣子而且你放進去你也不能把它拿出來的這個事情也要跟人民報告清楚謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.121 --> 00:06.444\n謝謝主席那我們是不是可以請這個國防部顧部長請顧部長是學長\n\n00:14.219 --> 00:37.489\n部長好現在大家都很關心這個F16V的延宕的問題喔那主要在上個禮拜的時候我有詢問這個主任長相關的這個議題那結果他第一時間呢他主動回覆說要向這個他沒有說是向哪一方啦但是因為這是一個軍購案嘛所以他當時講說他要提出法律的訴訟要求賠償並且要求返還不當得利\n\n00:39.930 --> 00:50.470\n那因為它是一個軍購案如果真的這麼做的話那就是政府對政府是否我們在卓院長的這個說明之下是要向美國政府來提告或者是說他搞錯啦\n\n00:51.967 --> 01:12.136\n呃跟委員報告我想呃相關軍購的案子是這個國家對國家政府對政府的所以我知道啊在發價書裡面就規定就是說呃爭議的話要按協商解決協商嘛那提告的部分因為院長他說要提告他說要返還不當要求返還不當得獵\n\n01:14.105 --> 01:30.074\n這個如果是關於有不當得利的狀況的話比如說像去年這個雷神公司它有涉及到詐欺的話那美國政府呢我問的是嚴當嘛那時候我沒有跟他講到就是說詐欺現在突然講到說詐欺我很緊張耶你這樣講\n\n01:31.635 --> 01:58.305\n因為院長可能他講的這個情況是在講說有不當得利那不當得利的話沒有我在你要回到我們的這個詢答的過程當中我在詢問的問題是F16V的延宕的問題那他呢就主動講說他要提出法律的訴訟那包含提告包含要求賠償包含不當得利的返還那以現在這個F16V的狀況有需要做到這樣嗎\n\n01:59.905 --> 02:10.453\n我個人覺得沒有你覺得有嗎F16V當然到現在為止並沒有發生像雷神公司的那一個違法的不當得利的狀況是那有要提出訴訟嗎這沒有辦法提出訴訟的吧對吧就F16V這個案子是F16V的這個案子目前是沒有\n\n02:17.398 --> 02:43.870\n好那因為我覺得呢要說清楚畢竟他就是我們的行政院長公然的說要這個等於是對美國提告這也引起大家不曉得風波所以先感謝我們院這個部長把這個事情講清楚不要再用這種方式然後呢讓其他我們這個跟我們互動的國家嚇一跳想說我美國要被台灣告了嗎這沒有這件事情再來院長後來呢就在最近的質詢裡面\n\n02:45.171 --> 03:08.411\n他他突然講說戰機的數量是不能公開的這是錯誤的訊息吧呃我想呃院長的意思當時講的意思我在旁邊聽的意思他大概意思就是說實際的這個這些交互的一些狀況呢還是容有保留的一個空間那麼呃所以我想這就這個需要這樣保留這個空間嗎因為\n\n03:09.472 --> 03:35.451\n各國到底有多少的戰鬥機的這個數量都是公開的資料啊那我們當時在簽訂這個新式戰機特別預算的時候的金額那大家也都有規劃在立法院裡面也都有討論那呢每一年大概本來我們的這個預計要交機多少那這也都是不是機密的資料那為什麼在大院備詢的時候會突然變成是不能公開討論的事情啊\n\n03:37.923 --> 03:54.376\n你覺得能夠公開討論嗎我想國防部這邊能夠跟委員報告的我們就盡量會跟委員報告那如果沒有辦法跟委員報告還是要請委員能夠體諒這當然我們都會體諒但是我必須要再一次強調我相信部長你也知道每一個國家的\n\n03:56.476 --> 04:12.367\n戰鬥機是幾架這是屬於公開資訊你網路上就查得到了我們行政院長竟然說不能公開討論這個我是匪夷所思喔那進到今天的正題喔因為前面我只是把最近的這個幾個大院的質詢喔捋清楚不要讓大家再有誤會\n\n04:13.368 --> 04:34.131\n那我們現在要講2400多億的這個新式戰機的特別預算裡面我想問一下頭期款我們現在付出去多少錢就說到這個美國聯邦儲備銀行因為我們是一起一起這樣子去付款嘛那我們現在目前付出的是多少金額啊來可以幫忙部長補充細節的部分\n\n04:35.923 --> 04:53.894\n包委員我們目前就161block崴東這個案子目前已經結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我們在去年第一季的時候也就是113年第一季的時候我們已經跟美方協調在他進入趕上之前我們暫緩付款所以目前付的就是這麼多錢所以總額是\n\n04:57.095 --> 05:15.741\n總額是目前我們結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我問一下喔47億那為什麼有一次在這個賴世保委員質詢的時候我有看到先前你們的這個也有出一個新聞喔那你們講說是六成左右這個六成的數字可不可以幫我們說明一下這六成是哪六成啊\n\n05:16.977 --> 05:40.383\n你去查新聞都有那個47億2500餘萬除以80是差不多六成所以是六成嘛因為你講這個錢因為我是這樣想你把48億這個東西你去跟這個所謂的2400多億這個你去比好像數字很小但其實實際上面交付的我們用比例來算的話坦白說他就是一個六成的數字我這樣講有錯嗎來可不可以幫我確認一下\n\n05:44.461 --> 06:11.182\n這個是我們目前結會的結會的額度你再把整個過程再講清楚一次好不好給你一個就是不然我怕大家聽不太清楚你把它整個就是六成然後你剛剛講四十八億然後還有這個兩千四百多億好不好因為是美金嘛對不對對嗯四十八億美金是多少台幣啊包委員我們算一下算一下我知道啦我沒有在講什麼我是說我們把這個事情說清楚嘛來\n\n06:13.603 --> 06:28.749\n48億美金多少台幣因為我現在都跟你講台幣的我們這樣子媒體要報導好了然後大家要了解好了比較清楚48億講了老半天人家以為台幣那很少啊48億美金那不一樣啊\n\n06:29.807 --> 06:34.991\n那1400多億左右好1400多億所以六成嘛我們就講2400多億的這個F16V的經費就預算然後我們把它放到美國聯邦儲備銀行裡面是1440億左右的台幣對吧\n\n06:51.084 --> 07:19.765\n六成現在不是全部都在美國聯邦儲備銀行那其實放到哪去了因為一開始的時候你交付交付的交付的點一開始我們在在簽約的時候百分之十五的簽約款當他成立了專案辦公室產線廢料之後他就會進到信託賬戶OK那後續現在進產線已經有五十架的飛機我們也必須依照這五十架的產制進程先支付他的產制費用所以頭期款是百分之十五\n\n07:21.886 --> 07:37.239\n對15%是多少來金額提供一下我要都要講台幣喔不要再給我美金了台幣對台幣15%一開始的時候包圓我們一開始的時候我們第一年編列的預算是450億左右那後面還是依據\n\n07:38.940 --> 07:54.109\n這個基本的款項因為我們已經編列了跟美方簽約那後續的部分就是依照美方他們的發料書的期程跟記帳單去支付所以我們現在就是整體來說呢就是提出去的錢是1440億月末是60%左右我再跟您確認一次大概是這個數字好的那這樣子的話\n\n08:00.652 --> 08:12.246\n那以這樣子講1441台幣那這樣的話比如說我們剛剛講放到帳戶裡面那我可以拿出來嗎如果人家給我延宕交際的話\n\n08:13.444 --> 08:37.558\n包委員他如果還沒有進到那個進度他就會放在聯邦儲備銀行對啊他放很久啊那一直放在那裡那等一下我問他放在那裡他給你利息嗎給你利息嘛對不對聯邦儲備銀行裡面是有按照美國的利率計算的利息他給你計算那請問一下那我們在目前來講的話我們以目前的利息來說那我們有額外的取得多少的利息說明一下吧\n\n08:42.997 --> 09:09.281\n包委員我是主席局長按照目前的美國的會議大概4%到4.25%之間這個不一定綠綠就是4%到4.25%之間所以相關的利息要在因為每一次結會的額度他所你會後再提供給我們好不好因為如果今天你放在那裡然後沒有用到然後他有利息那利息是多少你要告訴我們這對解釋這件事情清楚對你們是有幫助的好不好\n\n09:09.861 --> 09:35.206\n那但是呢這個1440億的台幣放在這個地方但我們目前交機制都沒有那我特別要講一下我想要問一下這個部長就您所知道的除了我國之外還有哪一些國家比我們還要早簽約然後呢也是在採購這個F16系列F16V之外之類的有多少國家\n\n09:37.779 --> 10:02.371\n目前我們在之前跟我們同一個前後簽約的國家包括斯洛伐克、巴林跟希臘的升級案以及後面結構的新個案其實有四個國家巴林、斯洛伐克、保加利亞跟摩洛克那總共有因為他們比我們早簽約嘛對不對這都是我講的都是比我們早簽約的部分有幾家他們是也還沒有交付的\n\n10:06.110 --> 10:24.141\n我跟您說我們放投影片給你看現在這個問題是這樣子的就是呢我們在2023年的時候是合約的簽署日然後66假對不對可是其實在比我們還要早簽約然後也還沒有交付的總共你可以看到還有62假\n\n10:26.494 --> 10:35.728\n所以總共落馬這邊積欠的積欠就是全世界要跟他訂購的在我們之前就包含我們還有我們之前總體來說就有已經是129架左右了\n\n10:39.659 --> 11:07.805\n是跟委員報告一下這個中間比較容易讓人家誤會的是雖然它都是block拐動但是裡面的細部的選項每一個國家都不一樣我知道我知道每一個國家都不一樣但是它還是必須它有因為每一個公司以洛馬來講它產能也是有限的嘛對不對那你應該很清楚來我們問一下洛馬公司每年平均的產製F16的F16系列的產能產能它們平均來說每年是產製幾家\n\n11:09.568 --> 11:33.026\n不然這個我要去查一下都有新聞好不好這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下每年能夠去產製平均來說就是23到26架今年等一下我會講這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能嘛對不對有的但是我們粗算的話落馬公司每年Roughly23到26這個就是目前的狀況\n\n11:34.212 --> 12:01.969\n那所以說呢官方它也是穩定的有達到每個月兩架年產約24架的這個節奏是有的是有的那所以呢我們看到上一張比我們還要早簽約的然後再加上我們的62加66這樣一共就129了在這129裡面那到現在如果我們要排成上去的話我們要如何能夠排得比人家還要前面呢\n\n12:02.549 --> 12:21.845\n我們要如何在它每年只能生產大概20多架左右對不起12720多架左右的這個飛機每年平均產23到26架左右的這個狀況之下我還能夠我們認為明年可以拿到大量的飛機的交集\n\n12:22.185 --> 12:27.969\n跟委員報告現在就是說在這個格林威爾這個的產線它所有產的都是我國的戰機它沒有在在這個格林威爾並沒有產其他國家的戰機所以剛剛已經報告了就是說我們現在看到的是生產線在線組裝的總共有50架飛機同時在線組裝它在線組裝50架對不對這是接下來我要跟您討論的事情因為我剛剛我們要先從它全部的產線來看\n\n12:50.962 --> 13:19.214\n那因為今年他就有講說呢這個媒體有報導啦那今年他們會試圖的製造比較多的F16V當然也跟我們的產線的有關就是這個您剛剛講的50架可是問題是來現在目前F16V他們在整體來上面來說除了產線現在擴大之外他有沒有其他軟體方面的問題是導致於他目前一直延宕的原因軟體方面出了哪些問題\n\n13:20.194 --> 13:42.884\n你們有掌握嗎包委員這個項目的話我們光我們國家這個第一個生產的就是設計的這個系統就超過30項所以說每一項我們就跟剛剛您提的那四個國家的飛機其實它的系統跟我們國家是不一樣我們國家這是全世界第一個F-16全數位化的一個系統\n\n13:44.065 --> 14:12.888\n所以嗎它是不是有軟體上的不同所以我從產能開始講前面一個問題第一個問題我問的是落馬公司它每年能夠做多少的產能第二個問題我要講的就是軟體部分我們目前的F16V如您所說的有很多新的東西要放進來它軟體部分是不是有瑕疵我舉例來講它的發動機的內組件系統是不是美方有告訴我們它目前有瑕疵還在修正\n\n14:14.667 --> 14:33.860\n老委員這個我們已經澄清過目前沒有都是按正常的那請問他們戰機內的內建式的電戰系統的測試狀況有沒有落後有落後這個部分是電戰測試電戰系統的測試的部分它是放在最後面因為要等飛機整個系統設計完這是有排序它的工序\n\n14:34.540 --> 14:50.466\n沒有錯所以我們要講的是今天國防部的報告只告訴我們說呢現在有50架飛機呢正在趕至當中但是就算它這個50架飛機它生產線它做了做要做多久我們還不知道等一下下一個我會開始講人力的問題\n\n14:51.606 --> 15:05.077\n錯了我還不知道但後續他們在我們剛剛講的電站系統上面的這些測試跟生產進度的落後軟體的問題那什麼時候能夠解決呢我們也不知道我們也沒有辦法掌握不是嗎\n\n15:05.816 --> 15:21.567\n報告委員這個就跟之前我們第一批F-16交際儀是這樣主攻向就是飛機全部飛回來它的次攻向的部分我們會陸陸續續的它去做一些後面的修改跟研發對啊那所以就是又會拖到啊它是有一定的排程我知道啊沒辦法插到前面\n\n15:21.667 --> 15:46.326\n我沒有要他插到前面去啊因為你一定要按照這個飛機的這個整個整個排依序去做嘛沒有人要他把它插到前面我只是告訴你說不是今天我們50架產線重新再開好像這個就只有做到這裡他後面還有整個這個電站的相關的細節要組合嘛等等這個我們講的軟體的問題最後我要談一個硬體不好意思主席我們再給我一點時間硬體來\n\n15:49.088 --> 15:56.456\n今年呃洛瑪他們就有相關的這個新聞寫說呢這個要裁減員工啊\n\n15:58.373 --> 16:17.444\n採檢員工那2024年落馬他們的預測是2025年要產36家的F16戰機2026年進一步增加但他們其實2025年上半年也只交付7家而已所以我們現在說美方正在全力趕工但是我所知道的我所詢問的狀況是\n\n16:19.025 --> 16:35.532\n其實在美國他們的這個產線即便是全力敢攻但是人力不足你沒有掌握這個情況嗎請說包委員有我沒有掌握這個狀況那目前他們是專責在我們F16生產線上的已經超過200位這個是專責在F16生產線\n\n16:38.933 --> 16:59.221\n對專責在我們生產線上的兩百位嘛對不對至少兩百位但是其實實際上面他們整體在建構這個F6V相關的這個人事上面還有能夠再更增加的空間還在找人對吧因為我知道他們從很多其他地方去調人過來因為人不夠\n\n17:01.042 --> 17:20.720\n所以我要問的是說我們的F16B你覺得我們的F16B現在目前你說200個人然後產線這個再多增加時間去趕工那這樣的話明年2026年我們在特別條例結束之前那能夠交付的戰機架數能夠到一半嗎\n\n17:22.072 --> 17:42.760\n這個我們會滾動次的修訂現在還沒有辦法明確的告訴委員好所以我剛剛人家都問說能不能夠全部交我才問一半而已30出頭價那都不知道那所以我們現在目前是不僅沒有辦法確定因為我覺得不可能啦66家都來基本不可能明年的話但明年總是要交出一個成績單吧\n\n17:44.281 --> 18:01.327\n那我們在成績單的部分來說我們明年總是要給我們一個預估說那會來個幾架吧10架20架還是30架我們會跟美方每個月都會來進行這樣子相關的那你之前一定每個月也都有相關的檢討啊那都是零\n\n18:02.352 --> 18:31.038\n沒有現在就是說剛剛已經講了組裝完畢之後還要進行這個測試對嘛所以我特別我們等測試配型確定之後我們比較能夠有把握跟委員報告我做一個我做一個結論好不好我覺得今天呢國防部的這個給我們的書面報告裡面你們只寫了在硬體上面然後呢產線要往上加你們只寫了說哎呀要加速趕工可是你們對於這個就算是50架他做完以後他後續還有\n\n18:33.424 --> 18:50.429\n軟體的部分還有電站系統要整合跟測試的部分都沒有提及今天如果不是我在這裡問的話也沒有人要講那我覺得你如果我們今天在討論的今天的主題非常感謝周偉排這個案子就是在講說這些軍購案的延宕的問題\n\n18:51.889 --> 18:57.354\n然後呢這些軍管延宕的問題你只講了硬體的部分你沒有講後續它的軟體它還有很多的難處啊我們本來就一直有講要做系統的一個測試的一個飛行的一個項目啊對啊不是啊你們這個今天的報告裡面你寫延宕的部分你們的解釋就是說我們這個現在已經有50架我沒看錯吧50架然後現在在趕工\n\n19:15.268 --> 19:24.010\n但是我們剛剛講說他們現在目前在整個電站系統裡面的整合出現了測試落後的問題我剛剛講了這個你們也承認有這件事情但你們有寫在報告裡嗎這剛剛已經總部長已經講了這是一個工序的問題它不只是工序的問題啊它不只是工序的問題啊你這個軟體你也要成功它現在已經目前有一架是出場典禮的時候有了嗎只是沒有來我們這裡嘛對不對\n\n19:42.313 --> 19:49.680\n那它到底這一架裡面它的這個電站系統的測試是成功還是還是有落後的這個事情你們也應該可以問得很清楚吧\n\n19:54.069 --> 20:12.359\n那一架飛機是目前硬體的部分電站系統的硬體是分開測試那一架飛機上面是不具有電站你看吧那一架飛機上面不具有這個我知道它是兩件事所以我才要問你們不能只講一件事不講另外一件事嘛只有一半的話飛機怎麼飛對吧時間的關係之後有時間我再繼續跟你們討論好不好\n\n20:17.102 --> 20:25.465\n但是我希望我們在報告上面要完整我不能說你不誠實但是你要完整大家才知道狀況就像剛剛講什麼48億很多人還以為台幣咧沒有美金我們講台幣就要對台幣講美金對美金所以是六成不是好像很少的樣子而且你放進去你也不能把它拿出來的這個事情也要跟人民報告清楚謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.121,"end":6.444,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是可以請這個國防部顧部長請顧部長是 學長"},{"start":14.219,"end":37.489,"text":"部長好 現在大家都很關心這個F16V的延宕的問題喔那主要在上個禮拜的時候 我有詢問這個主任長相關的這個議題那結果他第一時間呢 他主動回覆說要向這個他沒有說是向哪一方啦 但是因為這是一個軍購案嘛所以他當時講說 他要提出法律的訴訟要求賠償 並且要求返還不當得利"},{"start":39.93,"end":50.47,"text":"那因為它是一個軍購案如果真的這麼做的話那就是政府對政府是否我們在卓院長的這個說明之下是要向美國政府來提告或者是說他搞錯啦"},{"start":51.967,"end":72.136,"text":"呃跟委員報告我想呃相關軍購的案子是這個國家對國家政府對政府的所以我知道啊在發價書裡面就規定就是說呃爭議的話要按協商解決協商嘛那提告的部分因為院長他說要提告他說要返還不當要求返還不當得獵"},{"start":74.105,"end":90.074,"text":"這個如果是關於有不當得利的狀況的話比如說像去年這個雷神公司它有涉及到詐欺的話那美國政府呢我問的是嚴當嘛那時候我沒有跟他講到就是說詐欺現在突然講到說詐欺我很緊張耶你這樣講"},{"start":91.635,"end":118.305,"text":"因為院長可能他講的這個情況是在講說有不當得利那不當得利的話沒有 我在你要回到我們的這個詢答的過程當中我在詢問的問題是F16V的延宕的問題那他呢就主動講說他要提出法律的訴訟那包含提告包含要求賠償包含不當得利的返還那以現在這個F16V的狀況有需要做到這樣嗎"},{"start":119.905,"end":130.453,"text":"我個人覺得沒有 你覺得有嗎F16V當然到現在為止並沒有發生像雷神公司的那一個違法的不當得利的狀況是 那有要提出訴訟嗎這沒有辦法提出訴訟的吧 對吧就F16V這個案子是 F16V的這個案子目前是沒有"},{"start":137.398,"end":163.87,"text":"好那因為我覺得呢要說清楚畢竟他就是我們的行政院長公然的說要這個等於是對美國提告這也引起大家不曉得風波所以先感謝我們院這個部長把這個事情講清楚不要再用這種方式然後呢讓其他我們這個跟我們互動的國家嚇一跳想說我美國要被台灣告了嗎這沒有這件事情再來院長後來呢就在最近的質詢裡面"},{"start":165.171,"end":188.411,"text":"他他突然講說戰機的數量是不能公開的這是錯誤的訊息吧呃我想呃院長的意思當時講的意思我在旁邊聽的意思他大概意思就是說實際的這個這些交互的一些狀況呢還是容有保留的一個空間那麼呃所以我想這就這個需要這樣保留這個空間嗎因為"},{"start":189.472,"end":215.451,"text":"各國到底有多少的戰鬥機的這個數量都是公開的資料啊那我們當時在簽訂這個新式戰機特別預算的時候的金額那大家也都有規劃在立法院裡面也都有討論那呢每一年大概本來我們的這個預計要交機多少那這也都是不是機密的資料那為什麼在大院備詢的時候會突然變成是不能公開討論的事情啊"},{"start":217.923,"end":234.376,"text":"你覺得能夠公開討論嗎我想國防部這邊能夠跟委員報告的我們就盡量會跟委員報告那如果沒有辦法跟委員報告還是要請委員能夠體諒這當然我們都會體諒但是我必須要再一次強調我相信部長你也知道每一個國家的"},{"start":236.476,"end":252.367,"text":"戰鬥機是幾架這是屬於公開資訊你網路上就查得到了我們行政院長竟然說不能公開討論這個我是匪夷所思喔那進到今天的正題喔因為前面我只是把最近的這個幾個大院的質詢喔捋清楚不要讓大家再有誤會"},{"start":253.368,"end":274.131,"text":"那我們現在要講2400多億的這個新式戰機的特別預算裡面我想問一下頭期款我們現在付出去多少錢就說到這個美國聯邦儲備銀行因為我們是一起一起這樣子去付款嘛那我們現在目前付出的是多少金額啊來 可以幫忙部長補充細節的部分"},{"start":275.923,"end":293.894,"text":"包委員我們目前就161 block 崴東這個案子目前已經結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我們在去年第一季的時候也就是113年第一季的時候我們已經跟美方協調在他進入趕上之前我們暫緩付款所以目前付的就是這麼多錢所以總額是"},{"start":297.095,"end":315.741,"text":"總額是目前我們結會的是47億2500餘萬元那我問一下喔47億那為什麼有一次在這個賴世保委員質詢的時候我有看到先前你們的這個也有出一個新聞喔那你們講說是六成左右這個六成的數字可不可以幫我們說明一下這六成是哪六成啊"},{"start":316.977,"end":340.383,"text":"你去查新聞都有那個47億2500餘萬除以80是差不多六成所以是六成嘛因為你講這個錢因為我是這樣想你把48億這個東西你去跟這個所謂的2400多億這個你去比好像數字很小但其實實際上面交付的我們用比例來算的話坦白說他就是一個六成的數字我這樣講有錯嗎來可不可以幫我確認一下"},{"start":344.461,"end":371.182,"text":"這個是我們目前結會的結會的額度你再把整個過程再講清楚一次好不好給你一個就是不然我怕大家聽不太清楚你把它整個就是六成然後你剛剛講四十八億然後還有這個兩千四百多億好不好因為是美金嘛對不對對嗯四十八億美金是多少台幣啊包委員我們算一下算一下我知道啦我沒有在講什麼我是說我們把這個事情說清楚嘛來"},{"start":373.603,"end":388.749,"text":"48億美金多少台幣因為我現在都跟你講台幣的我們這樣子媒體要報導好了然後大家要了解好了比較清楚48億講了老半天人家以為台幣那很少啊48億美金那不一樣啊"},{"start":389.807,"end":394.991,"text":"那1400多億左右好1400多億所以六成嘛我們就講2400多億的這個F16V的經費就預算然後我們把它放到美國聯邦儲備銀行裡面是1440億左右的台幣對吧"},{"start":411.084,"end":439.765,"text":"六成現在不是全部都在美國聯邦儲備銀行那其實放到哪去了因為一開始的時候你交付交付的交付的點一開始我們在在簽約的時候百分之十五的簽約款當他成立了專案辦公室產線廢料之後他就會進到信託賬戶OK那後續現在進產線已經有五十架的飛機我們也必須依照這五十架的產制進程先支付他的產制費用所以頭期款是百分之十五"},{"start":441.886,"end":457.239,"text":"對15%是多少來金額提供一下我要都要講台幣喔不要再給我美金了台幣對台幣15%一開始的時候包圓我們一開始的時候我們第一年編列的預算是450億左右那後面還是依據"},{"start":458.94,"end":474.109,"text":"這個基本的款項因為我們已經編列了跟美方簽約那後續的部分就是依照美方他們的發料書的期程跟記帳單去支付所以我們現在就是整體來說呢就是提出去的錢是1440億月末是60%左右我再跟您確認一次大概是這個數字好的那這樣子的話"},{"start":480.652,"end":492.246,"text":"那以這樣子講1441台幣那這樣的話比如說我們剛剛講放到帳戶裡面那我可以拿出來嗎如果人家給我延宕交際的話"},{"start":493.444,"end":517.558,"text":"包委員他如果還沒有進到那個進度他就會放在聯邦儲備銀行對啊他放很久啊那一直放在那裡那等一下我問他放在那裡他給你利息嗎給你利息嘛對不對聯邦儲備銀行裡面是有按照美國的利率計算的利息他給你計算那請問一下那我們在目前來講的話我們以目前的利息來說那我們有額外的取得多少的利息說明一下吧"},{"start":522.997,"end":549.281,"text":"包委員我是主席局長 按照目前的美國的會議大概4%到4.25%之間這個不一定 綠綠就是4%到4.25%之間所以相關的利息要在因為每一次結會的額度他所你會後再提供給我們好不好因為如果今天你放在那裡然後沒有用到然後他有利息 那利息是多少你要告訴我們這對解釋這件事情清楚對你們是有幫助的好不好"},{"start":549.861,"end":575.206,"text":"那但是呢這個1440億的台幣放在這個地方但我們目前交機制都沒有那我特別要講一下我想要問一下這個部長就您所知道的除了我國之外還有哪一些國家比我們還要早簽約然後呢也是在採購這個F16系列F16V之外之類的有多少國家"},{"start":577.779,"end":602.371,"text":"目前我們在之前跟我們同一個前後簽約的國家包括斯洛伐克、巴林跟希臘的升級案以及後面結構的新個案其實有四個國家巴林、斯洛伐克、保加利亞跟摩洛克那總共有因為他們比我們早簽約嘛對不對這都是我講的都是比我們早簽約的部分有幾家他們是也還沒有交付的"},{"start":606.11,"end":624.141,"text":"我跟您說我們放投影片給你看現在這個問題是這樣子的就是呢我們在2023年的時候是合約的簽署日然後66假對不對可是其實在比我們還要早簽約然後也還沒有交付的總共你可以看到還有62假"},{"start":626.494,"end":635.728,"text":"所以總共落馬這邊積欠的積欠就是全世界要跟他訂購的在我們之前就包含我們還有我們之前總體來說就有已經是129架左右了"},{"start":639.659,"end":667.805,"text":"是 跟委員報告一下這個中間比較容易讓人家誤會的是雖然它都是block拐動但是裡面的細部的選項每一個國家都不一樣我知道我知道每一個國家都不一樣但是它還是必須它有因為每一個公司以洛馬來講它產能也是有限的嘛 對不對那你應該很清楚來 我們問一下洛馬公司每年平均的產製F16的F16系列的產能產能 它們平均來說每年是產製幾家"},{"start":669.568,"end":693.026,"text":"不然這個我要去查一下都有新聞好不好這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下每年能夠去產製平均來說就是23到26架今年等一下我會講這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能嘛對不對有的但是我們粗算的話落馬公司每年Roughly23到26這個就是目前的狀況"},{"start":694.212,"end":721.969,"text":"那所以說呢官方它也是穩定的有達到每個月兩架年產約24架的這個節奏是有的是有的那所以呢我們看到上一張比我們還要早簽約的然後再加上我們的62加66這樣一共就129了在這129裡面那到現在如果我們要排成上去的話我們要如何能夠排得比人家還要前面呢"},{"start":722.549,"end":741.845,"text":"我們要如何在它每年只能生產大概20多架左右對不起 127 20多架左右的這個飛機每年平均產23到26架左右的這個狀況之下我還能夠我們認為明年可以拿到大量的飛機的交集"},{"start":742.185,"end":747.969,"text":"跟委員報告現在就是說在這個格林威爾這個的產線它所有產的都是我國的戰機它沒有在在這個格林威爾並沒有產其他國家的戰機所以剛剛已經報告了就是說我們現在看到的是生產線在線組裝的總共有50架飛機同時在線組裝它在線組裝50架對不對這是接下來我要跟您討論的事情因為我剛剛我們要先從它全部的產線來看"},{"start":770.962,"end":799.214,"text":"那因為今年他就有講說呢這個媒體有報導啦那今年他們會試圖的製造比較多的F16V當然也跟我們的產線的有關就是這個您剛剛講的50架可是問題是來現在目前F16V他們在整體來上面來說除了產線現在擴大之外他有沒有其他軟體方面的問題是導致於他目前一直延宕的原因軟體方面出了哪些問題"},{"start":800.194,"end":822.884,"text":"你們有掌握嗎包委員 這個項目的話我們 光我們國家這個第一個生產的就是設計的這個系統就超過30項所以說每一項我們就跟剛剛您提的那四個國家的飛機其實它的系統跟我們國家是不一樣我們國家這是全世界第一個F-16全數位化的一個系統"},{"start":824.065,"end":852.888,"text":"所以嗎它是不是有軟體上的不同所以我從產能開始講前面一個問題第一個問題我問的是落馬公司它每年能夠做多少的產能第二個問題我要講的就是軟體部分我們目前的F16V如您所說的有很多新的東西要放進來它軟體部分是不是有瑕疵我舉例來講它的發動機的內組件系統是不是美方有告訴我們它目前有瑕疵還在修正"},{"start":854.667,"end":873.86,"text":"老委員這個我們已經澄清過目前沒有都是按正常的那請問他們戰機內的內建式的電戰系統的測試狀況有沒有落後有落後這個部分是電戰測試電戰系統的測試的部分它是放在最後面因為要等飛機整個系統設計完這是有排序它的工序"},{"start":874.54,"end":890.466,"text":"沒有錯所以我們要講的是今天國防部的報告只告訴我們說呢現在有50架飛機呢正在趕至當中但是就算它這個50架飛機它生產線它做了做要做多久我們還不知道等一下下一個我會開始講人力的問題"},{"start":891.606,"end":905.077,"text":"錯了 我還不知道 但後續他們在我們剛剛講的 電站系統上面的這些測試跟生產進度的落後軟體的問題 那什麼時候能夠解決呢我們也不知道 我們也沒有辦法掌握 不是嗎"},{"start":905.816,"end":921.567,"text":"報告委員這個就跟之前我們第一批F-16交際儀是這樣主攻向就是飛機全部飛回來它的次攻向的部分我們會陸陸續續的它去做一些後面的修改跟研發對啊那所以就是又會拖到啊它是有一定的排程我知道啊沒辦法插到前面"},{"start":921.667,"end":946.326,"text":"我沒有要他插到前面去啊因為你一定要按照這個飛機的這個整個整個排依序去做嘛沒有人要他把它插到前面我只是告訴你說不是今天我們50架產線重新再開好像這個就只有做到這裡他後面還有整個這個電站的相關的細節要組合嘛等等這個我們講的軟體的問題最後我要談一個硬體不好意思主席我們再給我一點時間硬體來"},{"start":949.088,"end":956.456,"text":"今年 呃 洛瑪他們就有相關的這個新聞寫說呢 這個要裁減員工啊"},{"start":958.373,"end":977.444,"text":"採檢員工那2024年落馬他們的預測是2025年要產36家的F16戰機2026年進一步增加但他們其實2025年上半年也只交付7家而已所以我們現在說美方正在全力趕工但是我所知道的我所詢問的狀況是"},{"start":979.025,"end":995.532,"text":"其實在美國他們的這個產線即便是全力敢攻但是人力不足你沒有掌握這個情況嗎請說包委員有我沒有掌握這個狀況那目前他們是專責在我們F16生產線上的已經超過200位這個是專責在F16生產線"},{"start":998.933,"end":1019.221,"text":"對 專責在我們生產線上的兩百位嘛對不對至少兩百位但是其實實際上面他們整體在建構這個F6V相關的這個人事上面還有能夠再更增加的空間還在找人對吧因為我知道他們從很多其他地方去調人過來因為人不夠"},{"start":1021.042,"end":1040.72,"text":"所以我要問的是說我們的F16B你覺得我們的F16B現在目前你說200個人然後產線這個再多增加時間去趕工那這樣的話明年2026年我們在特別條例結束之前那能夠交付的戰機架數能夠到一半嗎"},{"start":1042.072,"end":1062.76,"text":"這個我們會滾動次的修訂現在還沒有辦法明確的告訴委員好所以我剛剛人家都問說能不能夠全部交我才問一半而已30出頭價那都不知道那所以我們現在目前是不僅沒有辦法確定因為我覺得不可能啦66家都來基本不可能明年的話但明年總是要交出一個成績單吧"},{"start":1064.281,"end":1081.327,"text":"那我們在成績單的部分來說我們明年總是要給我們一個預估說那會來個幾架吧10架20架還是30架我們會跟美方每個月都會來進行這樣子相關的那你之前一定每個月也都有相關的檢討啊那都是零"},{"start":1082.352,"end":1111.038,"text":"沒有現在就是說剛剛已經講了組裝完畢之後還要進行這個測試對嘛所以我特別我們等測試配型確定之後我們比較能夠有把握跟委員報告我做一個我做一個結論好不好我覺得今天呢國防部的這個給我們的書面報告裡面你們只寫了在硬體上面然後呢產線要往上加你們只寫了說哎呀要加速趕工可是你們對於這個就算是50架他做完以後他後續還有"},{"start":1113.424,"end":1130.429,"text":"軟體的部分還有電站系統要整合跟測試的部分都沒有提及今天如果不是我在這裡問的話也沒有人要講那我覺得你如果我們今天在討論的今天的主題非常感謝周偉排這個案子就是在講說這些軍購案的延宕的問題"},{"start":1131.889,"end":1137.354,"text":"然後呢這些軍管延宕的問題你只講了硬體的部分你沒有講後續它的軟體它還有很多的難處啊我們本來就一直有講要做系統的一個測試的一個飛行的一個項目啊對啊不是啊你們這個今天的報告裡面你寫延宕的部分你們的解釋就是說我們這個現在已經有50架我沒看錯吧50架然後現在在趕工"},{"start":1155.268,"end":1164.01,"text":"但是我們剛剛講說他們現在目前在整個電站系統裡面的整合出現了測試落後的問題我剛剛講了這個你們也承認有這件事情但你們有寫在報告裡嗎這剛剛已經總部長已經講了這是一個工序的問題它不只是工序的問題啊它不只是工序的問題啊你這個軟體你也要成功它現在已經目前有一架是出場典禮的時候有了嗎只是沒有來我們這裡嘛對不對"},{"start":1182.313,"end":1189.68,"text":"那它到底這一架裡面它的這個電站系統的測試是成功還是還是有落後的這個事情你們也應該可以問得很清楚吧"},{"start":1194.069,"end":1212.359,"text":"那一架飛機是目前硬體的部分電站系統的硬體是分開測試那一架飛機上面是不具有電站你看吧那一架飛機上面不具有這個我知道它是兩件事所以我才要問你們不能只講一件事不講另外一件事嘛只有一半的話飛機怎麼飛對吧時間的關係之後有時間我再繼續跟你們討論好不好"},{"start":1217.102,"end":1225.465,"text":"但是我希望我們在報告上面要完整我不能說你不誠實但是你要完整大家才知道狀況就像剛剛講什麼48億很多人還以為台幣咧沒有美金我們講台幣就要對台幣講美金對美金所以是六成不是好像很少的樣子而且你放進去你也不能把它拿出來的這個事情也要跟人民報告清楚謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時26分）謝謝主席，我們是不是可以請國防部顧部長？"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。現在大家都很關心F-16V延宕的問題，主要是在上個禮拜的時候，我有詢問卓院長相關的議題，結果他第一時間主動回復要向……他沒有說是向哪一方，但是這是一個軍購案，所以他當時說他要提出法律訴訟要求賠償，並且要求返還不當得利。因為這是一個軍購案，如果真的這麼做的話，那就是政府對政府，是否我們在卓院長的說明之下要向美國政府提告，或者是他搞錯了？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想相關軍購的案子是國家對國家、政府對政府。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。"],["顧部長立雄：所以在發價書裡面就有規定產生爭議的話，要按協商解決。"],["徐委員巧芯：協商嘛！那提告的部分呢？因為院長說要提告，要求返還不當得利。"],["顧部長立雄：如果是關於有不當得利狀況的話，比如，像去年雷神公司有涉及到詐欺的話，美國政府……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是延宕，那時候我沒有跟他講到詐欺。"],["顧部長立雄：院長講的……"],["徐委員巧芯：現在突然講到詐欺，我很緊張，你這樣講……"],["顧部長立雄：因為院長講的這個情況可能是在講有不當得利，不當得利的話……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，你要回到我們這個詢答的過程當中，我在詢問的問題是F-16V延宕的問題，他主動講他要提出法律訴訟，包含提告、要求賠償、不當得利返還，以現在F-16V的狀況，有需要做到這樣嗎？我個人覺得沒有，你覺得有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：到現在為止，F-16V並沒有發生像雷神公司有違法、不當得利的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，那有要提出訴訟嗎？這沒有辦法提出訴訟了，對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：就F-16V這個案子……"],["徐委員巧芯：之前我們就有講這個案子。"],["顧部長立雄：F-16V這個案子目前是沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我覺得要說清楚，畢竟他是我們的行政院長，他公然地說要對美國提告，這也引起不小的風波，所以先感謝部長把這個事情講清楚，不要再用這種方式，讓其他跟我們互動的國家嚇一跳，想說美國要被臺灣告了嗎？沒有這件事情。","再來，院長在最近的質詢裡面突然講戰機的數量是不能公開的，這是錯誤的訊息吧？"],["顧部長立雄：院長當時講的意思，我在旁邊聽，我想他大概的意思是這些實際交付的狀況，還是容有保留的空間，所以就這個部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：需要保留這個空間嗎？因為各國到底有多少的戰鬥機數量都是公開資料，我們當時在簽訂新式戰機特別預算時的金額，也都有規劃，在立法院裡面也都有討論，每一年本來預計要交機多少，也都不是機密資料，為什麼在大院備詢的時候會突然變成是不能公開討論的事情？部長，你覺得能夠公開討論嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部這邊能夠跟委員報告的，我們就盡量跟委員報告，如果沒有辦法跟委員報告，還是要請委員能夠體諒。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這當然，我們都會體諒，但是我必須要再一次強調，我相信部長也知道，每一個國家的戰鬥機是幾架，這是屬於公開資訊，網路上就查得到了，我們行政院長竟然說不能公開討論，我是匪夷所思。","進到今天的正題，前面我只是把最近幾個在大院的質詢釐清楚，不要讓大家再有誤會，我們現在要講二千四百多億的新式戰機特別預算裡面，想問頭期款現在付出去多少錢到美國聯邦儲備銀行？因為我們是一期一期這樣子去付款，目前付出的是多少金額？你們可以幫忙部長補充細節的部分。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，就F-16V BLK70這個案子，我們目前已經結匯47億2,500餘萬元，在去年第一季也就是113年第一季的時候，我們已經跟美方協調在他進度趕上之前，我們暫緩付款，所以目前付的就是這麼多錢。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以總額是？"],["黃司長文啓：目前我們結匯的總額是47億2,500餘萬元。"],["徐委員巧芯：47億？為什麼有一次在賴士葆委員質詢的時候，我看到先前你們也有出一個新聞，你們說是六成左右，六成這個數字可不可以幫我們說明一下？這六成是哪六成？你去查新聞都有。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，47億2,500餘萬除以80是差不多六成。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是六成嘛！因為你講的這個錢，我是這樣想的，你把48億去跟所謂的二千四百多億比，好像數字很小，但其實實際上交付的，我們用比例來算的話，坦白說，它就是一個六成的數字，我這樣講有錯嗎？可不可以幫我確認一下。"],["黃司長文啓：這個是我們目前結匯的額度。"],["徐委員巧芯：你再把整個過程講清楚一次，好不好？不然我怕大家聽不太清楚，你把六成，還有你剛剛講的48億，然後還有二千四百多億，因為是美金，對不對？"],["黃司長文啓：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：48億美金是多少臺幣？算一下"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們任何一個新式武器裝備的購案……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我沒有講什麼，我是說我們把這個事情說清楚，48億美金是多少臺幣？我現在都跟你講臺幣，這樣子媒體要報導，還是大家要了解，都會比較清楚，講了老半天，人家以為48億是臺幣，那很少啊！48億美金不一樣啊！對吧？"],["黃司長文啓：大概一千四百多億左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，一千四百多億，所以是六成，我們就講二千四百多億F-16V的預算，我們把它放到美國聯邦儲備銀行裡面是1,440億左右臺幣，對吧？六成？"],["黃司長文啓：現在不是全部都在美國聯邦儲備銀行。"],["徐委員巧芯：那放到哪去了？"],["黃司長文啓：因為一開始的時候……"],["徐委員巧芯：你交付的點……"],["黃司長文啓：一開始我們在簽約的時候，15%簽約款，當他成立專案辦公室、產線備料之後，就會進到信託帳戶，現在進產線已經有50架飛機，我們也必須依照這50架的產製進程，先支付它的產製費用。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以頭期款是15%？"],["黃司長文啓：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：15%是多少？金額提供一下，我都要講臺幣，不要再給我美金了，臺幣對臺幣，一開始的時候15%……"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，一開始的時候，我們第一年編列的預算是450億左右，後面還是依據這個基本的款項，因為我們已經編列了，跟美方簽約，後續的部分就是依照美方發價書的期程和季帳單去支付。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以現在整體來講來說，我們提出去的錢是1,440億約莫是60%左右，再跟你確認一次？"],["黃司長文啓：大概是這個數字。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，以1,440億臺幣來講，比如，我們剛剛講放到帳戶裡面，我可以拿出來嗎？如果人家給我延宕交機的話？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，他如果還沒有進到那個進度就會放在聯邦儲備銀行。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！他放很久，一直放在那裡，請問放在那裡他有給你利息嗎？有給你利息，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：聯邦儲備銀行裡面是有按照美國利率計算利息。"],["徐委員巧芯：他有給你計算利息，請問以目前的利息來說，我們有額外取得多少利息，說明一下？"],["謝局長其賢：報告委員，我是主計局局長。按照目前美國的匯率大概是4%到4.25%之間，所以相關的利息要再精算，因為每一次結匯的額度所產生的利息不一定，我們要重新去核算。"],["徐委員巧芯：你會後再提供給我們，好不好？"],["謝局長其賢：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果今天你放在那裡、沒有用到，然後它有利息，你要告訴我們利息是多少，這件事情解釋清楚對你們是有幫助的，好不好？這1,440億臺幣放在這個地方，但我們目前交機是都沒有，我特別要講一下，我想要問一下部長，就您所知道的，除了我國之外，還有哪一些國家比我們還要早簽約，也是在採購F-16系列，如F-16V之類的，有多少國家？"],["黃司長文啓：在之前跟我們同一個前後簽約的國家，包括斯洛伐克、巴林跟希臘的升級案以及後面協購的軍購案。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，其實有四個國家，巴林、斯洛伐克、保加利亞跟摩洛哥。因為他們比我們早簽約，對不對？我講的都是比我們早簽約的部分，有幾架他們是還沒有交付的？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，這個數字我們後續掌握再提供。"],["徐委員巧芯：我跟您說，我們放投影片給你看，現在這個問題是這樣子，2023年是合約的簽署日，然後66架，對不對？可是其實在比我們還要早簽約，也還沒有交付的，你可以看到還有62架，所以洛馬總共積欠的，就是全世界要跟它訂購的，包含我們及在我們之前的國家，總體來說，就已經有129架左右。"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員報告，這個中間比較容易讓人家誤會的是，雖然它都是Block 70戰機，但是裡面細部的選項，每一個國家都不一樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道啊！我知道每一個國家都不一樣，因為每一個公司，以洛馬來講，產能也是有限的，對不對？你應該很清楚，來，我們問一下，洛馬公司每年平均產製F-16系列的產能，平均來說，每年是產製幾架？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，這個我要去查一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：都有新聞，好不好？這其實你們真的都應該要去了解一下。每年他們能夠去產製，平均來說，就是23到26架，等一下我會講今年的，這個也是符合你們國防部所說的要加大動能，對不對？有的。但是我們粗算的話，洛馬公司每年roughly是23到26架，這就是目前的狀況。官方也是穩定地有達到每個月2架、年產約24架的節奏，這是有的。我們看到上一張簡報，比我們還要早簽約的，再加上我們的，62加66，這樣一共約129架，在這129架裡面，到現在如果我們要排程上去的話，我們要如何能夠排得比人家還要前面呢？我們要如何在每年只能生產大概二十多架左右的飛機，每年平均產23到26架左右的狀況之下，我們還能夠認為明年可以拿到大量的飛機交機？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，現在格林威爾的產線，它所有產能都是我國的戰機，在格林威爾並沒有產其他國家的戰機。所以剛剛已經報告了，我們現在看到的是生產線在線組裝的，總共有50架飛機同時在線組裝……"],["徐委員巧芯：在線組裝50架，對不對？這是接下來我要跟您討論的事情，我們要先從它全部的產線來看，因為媒體有報導，今年他們會試圖製造比較多的F-16V，當然也跟我們的產線有關，就是您剛剛講的這50架，可是問題是他們目前在F-16V整體上來說，除了產線現在擴大之外，有沒有其他軟體方面的問題，導致他們目前一直延宕的原因？軟體方面出了哪些問題，你們有掌握嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，在這個項目，光我們國家第一個生產的，就是設計的系統就超過30項，跟剛剛您提的那四個國家的飛機，其實他的系統跟我們國家是不一樣，我們國家是全世界第一個F-16全數位化的系統，包含了很多的次系統……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以它是不是有軟體上的不同？"],["李參謀長慶然：是！"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我從產能開始講，前面第一個問題，我問的是洛馬公司每年能夠做多少的產能？第二個問題，我要講的就是軟體部分，如您所說的，我們目前的F-16V有很多新的東西要放進來，它軟體部分是不是有瑕疵？我舉例來講，發動機的內組件系統，是不是美方有告訴我們，它目前有瑕疵還在修正？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，這個我們已經澄清過，目前沒有，都是按正常……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問他們戰機內的內建式電戰系統的測試狀況有沒有落後？"],["李參謀長慶然：有落後，電戰系統測試的部分是放在最後面，因為要等飛機整個系統設計完，這是有排序，它的工序沒辦法同時進行。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒有錯。所以我們要講的是今天國防部的報告只告訴我們，現在有50架飛機正在趕製當中，但是就算這50架飛機在生產線上做了，這要做多久？我們還不知道，下一個我會開始講人力的問題。後續他們在我們剛剛講的電戰系統上面的測試跟生產進度的落後及軟體的問題，什麼時候能夠解決呢？我們也不知道，我們也沒有辦法掌握，不是嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，這跟之前第一批的F-16交機一樣，主工項就是飛機全部飛回來，次工項的部分，我們會陸陸續續去做一些後面的修改跟研發，這個也有排程……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！所以又會拖到啊！"],["李參謀長慶然：它是有一定的排程，沒辦法插到前面去做這樣的工項……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道啊！我沒有要它插到前面，因為你一定要按照飛機的整個工序去做，沒有人要把它插到前面。我只是告訴你，不是說今天我們50架飛機產線同時在開，好像就只有做到這裡，後面還有整個電戰相關的細節要組合等等，即我們講的軟體問題。","不好意思！主席，請再給我一點時間。最後我要談硬體，今年洛馬就有相關的新聞寫說要裁減員工，2024年洛馬他們的預測是2025年要產36架的F-16戰機，2026年進一步增加，但他們其實2025年上半年也只交付7架而已。所以我們現在說美方正在全力趕工，但是我所知道、所詢問的狀況是，其實在美國他們的產線，即便是全力趕工，但是人力不足，你們有掌握這個情況嗎？請說。"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，有，我們有掌握這個狀況。目前他們專責在我們F-16生產線上的已經超過200位，這個是專責在F-16生產線。"],["徐委員巧芯：對！專責在我們生產線上的是200位，對不對？"],["李參謀長慶然：至少200位。"],["徐委員巧芯：但實際上，他們整體在建構F-16V相關的人事上面，還有能夠再增加的空間，還在找人對吧？因為我知道他們從很多其他州的地方去調人過來，因為人不夠，所以我要問的是，你覺得我們的F-16V目前有200個人，然後產線再多增加時間去趕工，這樣的話，明年（2026年）我們在特別條例結束之前，交付的戰機架數能夠到一半嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個我們會滾動式修訂，現在還沒有辦法明確地告訴委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：人家都問能不能夠全部交付，我才問一半而已，能否交30出頭架都不知道，所以我們目前是不僅沒有辦法確定，因為我覺得不可能66架都來，基本上明年的話不可能，但明年總是要交出個成績單吧！在成績單的部分來說，明年總是要給我們一個預估會來個幾架吧？10架、20架還是30架？"],["顧部長立雄：我們跟美方每個月都會來進行相關的檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：你之前一定每個月也都有相關的檢討，但都是零？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，剛剛已經講了，組裝完畢之後，還要進行測試飛行……"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！所以我特別……"],["顧部長立雄：我們等測試飛行確定之後，我們比較能夠有把握跟委員報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我做一個結論好不好？我覺得今天國防部給我們的書面報告裡面，你們只寫在硬體上面產線要往上加，你們只寫要加速趕工，可是你們對於就算是50架，他們做完以後，後續還有軟體的部分，還有電戰系統要整合跟測試的部分都沒有提及，今天如果不是我在這裡問的話，也沒有人要講！關於今天討論的主題，非常感謝召委排這個案子討論這些軍購案延宕的問題，然後這些軍購案延宕的問題你只講了硬體的部分，你沒有講後續軟體上還有很多的難處！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們本來就一直有講要做飛行的系統測試項目。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啊，你們今天報告裡面寫到延宕部分的解釋就是現在已經有50架，我沒看錯吧，50架，然後現在在趕工。但是我們剛剛講說，現在目前在整個電戰系統裡面的整合出現了測試落後的問題，我剛剛講了這個，你們也承認有這件事情，但你們有寫在報告裡嗎？有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這部分剛剛參謀長已經講了，這是一個工序的問題，並不是……"],["徐委員巧芯：這不只是工序的問題啊！你這個軟體也要成功，它現在已經目前有一架是出廠典禮的時候有了嘛，只是沒有來我們這裡，對不對？到底這一架裡面的電戰系統的測試是成功還是有落後，這件事情你們應該可以問得很清楚吧？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，那一架飛機是……"],["主席：時間的關係，到時候……"],["徐委員巧芯：簡單說明。"],["李參謀長慶然：我簡單回答，那一架飛機目前電戰系統的硬體部分是分開測試，那一架飛機上面是不具有電戰……"],["徐委員巧芯：你看吧，那一架飛機上面不具有這個！"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，這是兩件事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道這是兩件事，所以我才要問你們，不能只講一件事、不講另外一件事嘛！只有一半的話，飛機怎麼飛，對吧？","因為時間的關係，之後有時間我再繼續跟你們討論，好不好？但是我希望你們在報告上面要完整，我不能說你不誠實，但是你要完整，大家才知道狀況！就像剛剛講的什麼48億，很多人還以為是臺幣，沒有，美金！我們講臺幣就要對臺幣、講美金對美金，所以是六成，不是好像很少的樣子，而且你放進去也不能把它拿出來，這個事情也要跟人民報告清楚，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}