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{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 263.032, \"end\": 263.272, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 263.272, \"end\": 263.472, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 263.472, \"end\": 263.632, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 263.632, \"end\": 263.712, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 263.712, \"end\": 264.032, \"score\": 0.537}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"填\", \"start\": 264.032, \"end\": 264.233, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 264.233, \"end\": 264.353, \"score\": 0.601}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 264.353, \"end\": 264.733, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 264.733, \"end\": 265.413, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 265.413, \"end\": 265.754, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 265.754, \"end\": 266.194, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 266.194, 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{\"word\": \"貸\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 352.22, \"end\": 352.38, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 352.38, \"end\": 352.6, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 352.6, \"end\": 352.781, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 352.781, \"end\": 353.381, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 353.381, \"end\": 354.482, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 354.482, \"end\": 354.703, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 354.703, \"end\": 354.943, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"研\", \"start\": 354.943, \"end\": 354.963, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"討\"}]}, {\"start\": 356.064, \"end\": 366.019, \"text\": \"那官兵的這個管道上面現在是有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統另外還有一個是叫建制幹部將長官這個要不要\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 356.064, \"end\": 356.605, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 356.605, \"end\": 356.865, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"兵\", 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{\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 361.753, \"end\": 361.933, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"兵\", \"start\": 361.933, \"end\": 362.233, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"滿\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 362.233, \"end\": 362.374, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 362.374, \"end\": 362.654, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 362.654, \"end\": 362.854, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 362.854, \"end\": 363.215, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 363.215, \"end\": 363.355, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 363.355, \"end\": 363.656, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 363.656, \"end\": 363.756, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 363.756, \"end\": 364.297, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 364.297, \"end\": 364.697, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 364.697, \"end\": 365.138, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 365.138, \"end\": 365.398, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 365.398, \"end\": 365.478, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"幹\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 365.478, \"end\": 365.639, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"將\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 365.639, \"end\": 365.659, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 365.659, \"end\": 365.679, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 365.679, \"end\": 365.999, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 365.999, \"end\": 366.019, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 370.973, \"end\": 391.652, \"text\": \"請說各位好 我是侯志士市長那針對於這個反應的部分第一個 我們每一季在開會之前我們會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的所有意見來跟各軍種做研討第二個 同時你向你的上級長官反應之後反應到司令部他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭的資料讓我們來大家各軍種參與研討\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 370.973, \"end\": 371.494, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 371.494, \"end\": 371.714, \"score\": 0.778}, 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{\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 387.949, \"end\": 388.049, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 388.049, \"end\": 388.189, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 388.189, \"end\": 388.349, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 388.349, \"end\": 388.429, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 388.429, \"end\": 388.549, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 388.549, \"end\": 388.669, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 388.669, \"end\": 388.99, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 388.99, \"end\": 389.27, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 389.27, \"end\": 389.73, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 389.73, \"end\": 389.85, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 389.85, \"end\": 389.99, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 389.99, \"end\": 390.251, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 883.198, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 883.198, \"end\": 883.539, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 883.539, \"end\": 883.879, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 883.879, \"end\": 884.019, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 884.019, \"end\": 884.119, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 884.119, \"end\": 884.239, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 884.239, \"end\": 884.88, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 884.88, \"end\": 885.08, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 885.08, \"end\": 885.2, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"往\", \"start\": 885.2, \"end\": 885.921, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 885.921, \"end\": 886.141, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 886.141, \"end\": 886.282, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 886.282, \"end\": 886.782, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"邁\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 886.782, \"end\": 886.862, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 886.862, \"end\": 887.102, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 887.102, \"end\": 887.323, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 887.323, \"end\": 887.443, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 887.443, \"end\": 887.583, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 887.583, \"end\": 887.703, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 887.703, \"end\": 887.803, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 887.803, \"end\": 887.983, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 887.983, \"end\": 888.003, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"應\"}]}, {\"start\": 888.884, \"end\": 915.838, \"text\": \"我們會針對我們未來的籌購的這些投資案也好 違資案也好 商購案也好然後所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等我們都要來 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00:00:34,816\n是孫維也好部長好今天大家都很關心這些所謂武器等等延宕的問題當然我們都知道會有一些這個延遲會有一些系統整合的問題這其實跟我們潛艦有遇到類似的問題所以我今天反而因為前面其實真的滿多委員問過了我也覺得說真的這個理由其實我說真的我覺得還滿清楚的\n\n3\n00:00:35,396 --> 00:01:00,049\n所以我覺得我想要問的反而是相反的我想要問就是沒有延宕的一個部分我先從一些比較小的地方問起就是說第一個就是像我們現在就是有這些所謂的個裝那我們在做一些這個這個士兵的一些訪談的時候我們就發現就是那一個下面這個彈夾帶他要去拿彈夾的時候呢很容易被上面那個流彈帶卡住這是第一個\n\n4\n00:01:00,919 --> 00:01:29,801\n第二個就是這個彈夾帶那個魔鬼氈那個魔鬼氈他有時候他為了要讓他能夠更容易取得他想要就把他往內折一點因為他滿長的他把他往內折之後再拿還是一樣會卡住那時候我們就有問說那為什麼就是你為什麼一定要把這個手榴彈帶把它放在那個上面他說是因為有一些這些長官他會要求他為了要一致就是希望他能夠大家都擺在一樣的位置但因為每個人的這個使用習慣\n\n5\n00:01:31,843 --> 00:01:49,963\n使用習慣會不同的時候呢就變成說其實對他來講這個是不方便的但他卻會因為長官的要求變成說他沒有辦法去好好的去拿這一個彈夾所以對我來講就是說這個不管我們的戰術背心不管我們的彈夾帶這一些這些都如期較好這沒有什麼延宕的問題\n\n6\n00:01:51,184 --> 00:02:09,087\n但是雖然他沒有什麼延宕的問題但是他在這一個使用的過程當中其實我們的士兵在使用他是需要一些回饋機制這個回饋機制呢就會有因為一些個案會有所不同所以我為什麼我說我今天要提這一點就是因為我們等一下還會再提別的案子但最主要就是說\n\n7\n00:02:09,728 --> 00:02:20,982\n即使今天是沒有延宕的我們一些軍備品的採購等等之類的這一些是不是都有到位是不是士兵會滿意在這一邊是不是先請部長做一個簡單的說明\n\n8\n00:02:23,093 --> 00:02:49,652\n據我了解就是說我們現在在114年9月10號有頒了一個令就是說就那個官兵可以依照任務導向安全優先跟穿著素食危險者來可以自行調整佩戴的位置跟數量也就是說譬如說那個彈夾帶可以依照個人的習慣然後再調就是說他來調整他的這個\n\n9\n00:02:53,286 --> 00:03:21,915\n位置跟數量這個相關的指導我們在9月10號來已經有辦令了謝謝因為這一個有時候我覺得這個有幾個層次的問題第一個層次的問題就是它可能是個案我說的個案就是說可能有一些特地的一些中階的長官他可能在這一個下命令的時候他就要求比如整齊花衣什麼等等之類的這一個如果能夠直接跟他要求說不需要這個樣子這個容易解決\n\n10\n00:03:22,815 --> 00:03:51,110\n所以我們才會辦這個鏈下去就讓各部隊的長官不需要這樣子是所以這一個鏈就是說我剛剛講的如果是個別的問題如果有這個鏈下去的話這個容易解決但第二個我要講的就是比如說我們這個在這個背心上的一個設計還有我們這個放的這個位置比如說我們今天要進去比如說我們要到車子裡面有一些車子剛好設計得比較狹窄所以它可能會容易有碰撞又或者說有一些它這個黏性不足有些是黏性太強\n\n11\n00:03:51,730 --> 00:04:13,364\n有一些是黏性不足那這一些呢都會有需要一個回饋機制那我們在問的時候呢就會發現說其實這個它的確都如期交付了這個是士兵們也都在使用那這個軍備局它其實會有一個上面會有一個小卡啦上面有一個電話嘛對不對就是說如果你有這一個這個也覺得有什麼問題的話你可以打電話也可以來解決\n\n12\n00:04:14,665 --> 00:04:38,704\n但是我們在問這一個士兵的同時我們也發現一個問題就是說如果是那種委外的因為我們國軍有一些委外的他說委外的他們會填一些意見書他覺得這一個回饋的情形是比較好但是在我們軍備這個回饋的情形他們認為是比較差而且就是也有軍種上的差別看起來空軍的滿意度又比較高一點其他的滿意度稍微比較低\n\n13\n00:04:39,244 --> 00:05:06,743\n所以就是說因為我們在問的時候我們是廣泛的問廣泛的問的時候我們會發現其實不滿意的士兵他是有滿高的數量其實有時候已經有些已經過半了所以針對這樣的一個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣確保一件事情就是今天基層的士兵他們如果對於哪一些裝備他們覺得有這個使用上的這一個不滿又或者說他們覺得這個還不如就是我自己去添購就算了我們有些核心當然是我們還是都要公發\n\n14\n00:05:07,483 --> 00:05:34,321\n但是在這個以外的就是在他們有這個布滿這個回饋機制現在有沒有改進因為我們這個是軍人節的時候問他們的我想第一個就是說國防部必須也要主動來做啦所以現在有會每一季會來邀集這個軍備局跟各軍種就這個這些戰鬥各裝的延改我們需求的延改需求來做一些研討\n\n15\n00:05:36,644 --> 00:05:54,963\n所以包括像114年不管是稅貸等等這些的我們都會來延改那115年我的了解好像也要來執行這些包括戶西戶走水壤還有彈匣貸等等也要來持續來做一個研討\n\n16\n00:05:56,064 --> 00:06:06,019\n那官兵的這個管道上面現在是有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統另外還有一個是叫建制幹部將長官這個要不要\n\n17\n00:06:10,973 --> 00:06:31,652\n請說各位好我是侯志士市長那針對於這個反應的部分第一個我們每一季在開會之前我們會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的所有意見來跟各軍種做研討第二個同時你向你的上級長官反應之後反應到司令部他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭的資料讓我們來大家各軍種參與研討\n\n18\n00:06:33,154 --> 00:06:47,861\n那當然有些官士兵會認為說可能外國的裝備或是說他們看過一些更先進的裝備會比較好但是如果說我們統一讓他們去採購的話第一個價格可能會有很大的差異性第二個安全保障我們沒有辦法做到一致性\n\n19\n00:06:49,502 --> 00:07:07,422\n因為剛剛也有提到互吸互走我們在問的時候也有問到說互吸互走比較容易磨破什麼等等之類這個也都有在反映剛剛有講到就是說因為我們的確有一些人是滿意的但是不滿意的有在之前有一定的數量所以現在我們就是反正這些事情只要是改進都不是問題\n\n20\n00:07:08,183 --> 00:07:36,850\n所以我希望呢就是剛剛講的這些事情呢比如說我們兩個月之內兩個月之內之後我們再來追蹤一次就是說這個士兵現在他們對於這種公發的他們的滿意度他們認為自己的意見有沒有被反映這件事情我們再來做一次追蹤好不好因為我覺得這件事情真的很重要那剛剛又回到剛剛講的你剛剛說他們今天意見回來之後回來之後呢我們下一次可能再做這一個採購或者再做要把這個納入考慮嘛但這個又會形成下一個問題就是我們的採購的那一個人的那個組成\n\n21\n00:07:38,274 --> 00:07:59,141\n因為我們今天在採購這些這個個裝的時候那個組成裡面比如說我們今天講到這一些互吸互走等等之類的他也會請一些教授學者專家他可能是針對那個棒數有沒有針對那個針織的方法也提供了一些專業的意見這本來沒什麼問題這是好事但是有時候我們看到比如說那個採購的人裡面比如說七個人裡面\n\n22\n00:07:59,921 --> 00:08:21,273\n他可能這一個軍種來的人可能一兩個然後有一些就是我剛剛講的紡織的專長什麼等等之類的或許在這個部分也可以想像人數不一定要說軍種的人一定要增加但是就是那一個人他一定要能夠帶到剛剛講的基層的意見因為意見回來然後在採購的時候被反映出來這個新的採購才會有辦法變得更好嘛\n\n23\n00:08:21,953 --> 00:08:51,376\n这个机制要有一个回馈机制也就是我们确保他们的意见能够上来之后他要能够进入到采购这件事情所以他有两个层次第一个就是我们确保管道的畅通第二个就是我们的采购委员会要确保这个意见有进去不然的话到最后虽然有时候我们知道棒数这个轻量等等之类的这个都是很重要的没有错但是使用经验也是一样的重要所以这个部分希望能够我们在两个月之内我们再来追踪一下这样的一个问题好不好\n\n24\n00:08:52,837 --> 00:09:18,577\n那再來就是說這一個我也必須要講就是說不管是這個頭盔夜視鏡我們在問的時候但是我這邊其實是要講的是它是有進步的因為我們在問這些使用者的時候他們的反應是有進步他們的意見有被反應到的跟剛剛那個彈夾不太一樣只是他認為進步的這個幅度沒有外面的有一些廠商來得更快所以導致他們又會想要自己去購買\n\n25\n00:09:19,918 --> 00:09:41,191\n所以這一個是速度的問題這個倒不是我剛剛講的說已經回饋機制完全的失靈而是說我們剛剛講的除了管道的暢通還有採購委員會的意見的納入之外我覺得速度可能也很重要因為有時候在外面這種競爭的速度很快他們改良的速度很快有一些是因為他們在使用上已經在第一線的戰鬥所以他當然他的回饋機制會更快\n\n26\n00:09:42,852 --> 00:09:53,978\n我們畢竟現在還沒有這個第一線戰鬥的這個經驗直接的回饋所以可能會慢一些所以這個時候要不要把一些比如說國外的經驗納入什麼等等之類的這個就可能之後我們再來討論好\n\n27\n00:09:56,297 --> 00:10:17,677\n那再來這一個採購委員會的組成我剛剛有提過所以最後我是想提到一件事情就是說因為我們今天一直在講這些武器的延宕什麼等等之類的那我們當然知道其實我們現在不管是16VF16V又或者說我們一些飛彈的一些採購這些事情它其實是有符合我們軍種的需求\n\n28\n00:10:18,297 --> 00:10:40,013\n所以跟我剛剛講的情形是不太一樣我們是有需求的而且我們的需求是很強烈比如說我們哪些要數位化哪些我們要做新的系統整合這個是我們以台灣的國軍的角度我們有要求其實當我們的要求越多的時候他們可能比如說他們要開新的產線他們要做新的系統的整合這個時候延宕是可能會被預見的\n\n29\n00:10:40,974 --> 00:11:03,651\n所以第一件事情是其實如果當我們的要求變多的時候延宕是可以預見的我們不一定要把這個延宕當作是一個壞事因為我們必須要符合我們的作單需求所以我回過頭來想要看就是我們一般的像我現在講的這種個狀的採買等等之類的這些事情我們並沒有說當然延宕是好事但我們是希望說它中間的過程即使稍微冗長一點即使呢\n\n30\n00:11:04,531 --> 00:11:30,091\n但是能够让作战的需求能够让士兵的需求跟反应能够反映到不管是后续的改善或者采购委员会里面的话说真的即使有时候慢了一点点但反而对我们的国军是好事不然就会形成我这边有画一个图就会变成说有时候我们说我们要太旧换新然后我们要作战需求的一个汇整但有时候上面的长关系对这个非常非常的了解\n\n31\n00:11:30,791 --> 00:11:46,516\n他們也知道我們的需求是什麼就有時候中階的這些一些長官可能就想說這個需要什麼就盡量趕那時候的士兵本來就想說唉唷我想出需求我可以解決當前的問題我很開心有沒有但是有時候中間就是為了要去趕這件事情\n\n32\n00:11:47,356 --> 00:12:13,737\n結果反而會忽略了基層的需求為了趕之後呢然後最後就會變成怎樣呢反正我們先趕快結案不然結案的話我們沒有結案的話我們就沒有這個新品然後這個品質如果出問題的話我們驗收應該怎麼辦到時候可能驗收的標準又改變那時候基層就會覺得說你怎麼前後不一致然後就會開始有點無力回天的感覺然後就可能在網路上開始做一些抱怨這其實就是會沒有一個正向回饋的機制所以一開始那個點反而都是在什麼\n\n33\n00:12:14,457 --> 00:12:35,665\n都在需要什麼就盡量趕那個右上角在編列預算到審查預算那個中間就是說我要什麼我就盡量趕我一定要如期我什麼事情都要先把這個期限壓好之後我就一定要做到從那一個瞬間開始在組織文化裡面就會造成今天下面的聲音可能會上不來所以我是希望說我們在\n\n34\n00:12:36,949 --> 00:12:59,721\n符合這個官兵的需求符合作戰的需求跟時間我們要找到一個新的平衡點那不然的話呢我們永遠呢就是說希望就是說我們趕快先把這個做出來因為我們要趕這個年度的預算什麼等等之類的這種時候事情會變得非常沒有彈性那最後呢因為時間的關係我想再問就是廣告最前面有點有跳過的部分就是部長在這一個\n\n35\n00:13:02,623 --> 00:13:20,570\n5%這件事情有提到就是說這個核心國防的支出應該要超過3%那逐步增加慢慢到5%那當然第一個呢這個我們按照北約的這個計算方式因為北約有這個核心跟非核心的這個支出那部長呢目前我們來講指的這個3%指的是核心的國防支出嗎\n\n36\n00:13:23,764 --> 00:13:42,034\n3%的部分現在是核心的國防支柱那如果說我們今天逐步增加到5%這個5%指的是核心跟非核心都算在內還是指我們核心就要往這一個5%邁進我想我們會按北約的基準來按北約的基準來做因為我這次在這一個國防工業會議的時候剛剛的核心國防支柱也是按北約的也是按照北約嗎是\n\n37\n00:13:42,694 --> 00:14:05,569\n因為我們在問的時候其實很多人都很關心這個問題這個北約的這個計算標準其實大家都知道那個細節但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是下面這一個就是說我們到底有沒有足夠的人力去評估或者去應對預算的一個增加這個就有點像是我們有一陣子這個財化法的問題一樣就我們財化法就是要把中央很多錢直接挖走然後到地方問題是地方的人力是沒有增加的\n\n38\n00:14:06,169 --> 00:14:27,342\n所以他那個預算一下去之後那個公務人員就有點傻住說好那你現在給我這筆預算你跟我說要做什麼但是我沒有做這些事情的人力我們今天這個人力的配置因為我們當然我們的邊線這是一個問題這就指著我們作戰的這個問題但是光是我們今天預算的增加這件事情它是需要人力去支持跟執行還有因應的\n\n39\n00:14:27,962 --> 00:14:48,003\n所以人力這件事情呢我們如果要逐步往上升的話我們相關的因為我們有作業維持費我們有這一個這個軍購的費用然後我們有一般的這一個薪水的支出我們有分這幾塊我們有沒有去評估一下我們在人力這一邊有沒有去針對我們要往3%5%那個方向邁進的那個足夠的人力去做因應\n\n40\n00:14:48,884 --> 00:15:15,838\n我們會針對我們未來的籌購的這些投資案也好違資案也好商購案也好然後所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等我們都要來三軍都要來做一個調整所以我們會針對潛在的人力需求還有關於整個編制我們都在做一個滾動式的檢討\n\n41\n00:15:16,678 --> 00:15:25,111\n好因為時間關係謝謝部長那之後這一個預算的那個部分我可能也會針對這一個去看一下我們這個人力的編制到底有沒有到位是謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t230\t謝謝趙偉那有請部長\n10889\t34816\t是 孫維也好部長好今天大家都很關心這些所謂武器等等延宕的問題當然我們都知道會有一些這個延遲會有一些系統整合的問題這其實跟我們潛艦有遇到類似的問題所以我今天反而因為前面其實真的滿多委員問過了我也覺得說真的這個理由其實我說真的我覺得還滿清楚的\n35396\t60049\t所以我覺得我想要問的反而是相反的我想要問就是沒有延宕的一個部分我先從一些比較小的地方問起就是說第一個就是像我們現在就是有這些所謂的個裝那我們在做一些這個這個士兵的一些訪談的時候我們就發現就是那一個下面這個彈夾帶他要去拿彈夾的時候呢很容易被上面那個流彈帶卡住這是第一個\n60919\t89801\t第二個就是這個彈夾帶那個魔鬼氈那個魔鬼氈他有時候他為了要讓他能夠更容易取得他想要就把他往內折一點因為他滿長的他把他往內折之後再拿還是一樣會卡住那時候我們就有問說那為什麼就是你為什麼一定要把這個手榴彈帶把它放在那個上面他說是因為有一些這些長官他會要求他為了要一致就是希望他能夠大家都擺在一樣的位置但因為每個人的這個使用習慣\n91843\t109963\t使用習慣會不同的時候呢就變成說其實對他來講這個是不方便的但他卻會因為長官的要求變成說他沒有辦法去好好的去拿這一個彈夾所以對我來講就是說這個不管我們的戰術背心不管我們的彈夾帶這一些這些都如期較好這沒有什麼延宕的問題\n111184\t129087\t但是雖然他沒有什麼延宕的問題但是他在這一個使用的過程當中其實我們的士兵在使用他是需要一些回饋機制這個回饋機制呢就會有因為一些個案會有所不同所以我為什麼我說我今天要提這一點就是因為我們等一下還會再提別的案子但最主要就是說\n129728\t140982\t即使今天是沒有延宕的我們一些軍備品的採購等等之類的這一些是不是都有到位是不是士兵會滿意在這一邊是不是先請部長做一個簡單的說明\n143093\t169652\t據我了解就是說我們現在在114年9月10號有頒了一個令就是說就那個官兵可以依照任務導向安全優先跟穿著素食危險者來可以自行調整佩戴的位置跟數量也就是說譬如說那個彈夾帶可以依照個人的習慣然後再調就是說他來調整他的這個\n171971\t172381\t呃\n173286\t201915\t位置跟數量這個相關的指導我們在9月10號來已經有辦令了謝謝 因為這一個有時候我覺得這個有幾個層次的問題第一個層次的問題就是它可能是個案我說的個案就是說可能有一些特地的一些中階的長官他可能在這一個下命令的時候他就要求比如整齊花衣什麼等等之類的這一個如果能夠直接跟他要求說不需要這個樣子這個容易解決\n202815\t231110\t所以我們才會辦這個鏈下去就讓各部隊的長官不需要這樣子是 所以這一個鏈就是說我剛剛講的如果是個別的問題如果有這個鏈下去的話這個容易解決但第二個我要講的就是比如說我們這個在這個背心上的一個設計還有我們這個放的這個位置比如說我們今天要進去比如說我們要到車子裡面有一些車子剛好設計得比較狹窄所以它可能會容易有碰撞又或者說有一些它這個黏性不足有些是黏性太強\n231730\t253364\t有一些是黏性不足那這一些呢都會有需要一個回饋機制那我們在問的時候呢就會發現說其實這個它的確都如期交付了這個是士兵們也都在使用那這個軍備局它其實會有一個上面會有一個小卡啦上面有一個電話嘛對不對就是說如果你有這一個這個也覺得有什麼問題的話你可以打電話也可以來解決\n254665\t278704\t但是我們在問這一個士兵的同時我們也發現一個問題就是說如果是那種委外的因為我們國軍有一些委外的他說委外的他們會填一些意見書他覺得這一個回饋的情形是比較好但是在我們軍備這個回饋的情形他們認為是比較差而且就是也有軍種上的差別看起來空軍的滿意度又比較高一點其他的滿意度稍微比較低\n279244\t306743\t所以就是說因為我們在問的時候我們是廣泛的問廣泛的問的時候我們會發現其實不滿意的士兵他是有滿高的數量其實有時候已經有些已經過半了所以針對這樣的一個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣確保一件事情就是今天基層的士兵他們如果對於哪一些裝備他們覺得有這個使用上的這一個不滿又或者說他們覺得這個還不如就是我自己去添購就算了我們有些核心當然是我們還是都要公發\n307483\t334321\t但是在這個以外的就是在他們有這個布滿這個回饋機制現在有沒有改進因為我們這個是軍人節的時候問他們的我想第一個就是說國防部必須也要主動來做啦所以現在有會每一季會來邀集這個軍備局跟各軍種就這個這些戰鬥各裝的延改我們需求的延改需求來做一些研討\n336644\t354963\t所以包括像114年不管是稅貸等等這些的我們都會來延改那115年我的了解好像也要來執行這些包括戶西戶走 水壤還有彈匣貸等等也要來持續來做一個研討\n356064\t366019\t那官兵的這個管道上面現在是有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統另外還有一個是叫建制幹部將長官這個要不要\n370973\t391652\t請說各位好 我是侯志士市長那針對於這個反應的部分第一個 我們每一季在開會之前我們會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的所有意見來跟各軍種做研討第二個 同時你向你的上級長官反應之後反應到司令部他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭的資料讓我們來大家各軍種參與研討\n393154\t407861\t那當然有些官士兵會認為說可能外國的裝備或是說他們看過一些更先進的裝備會比較好但是如果說我們統一讓他們去採購的話第一個價格可能會有很大的差異性第二個安全保障我們沒有辦法做到一致性\n409502\t427422\t因為剛剛也有提到互吸互走我們在問的時候也有問到說互吸互走比較容易磨破什麼等等之類這個也都有在反映剛剛有講到就是說因為我們的確有一些人是滿意的但是不滿意的有在之前有一定的數量所以現在我們就是反正這些事情只要是改進都不是問題\n428183\t456850\t所以我希望呢就是剛剛講的這些事情呢比如說我們兩個月之內兩個月之內之後我們再來追蹤一次就是說這個士兵現在他們對於這種公發的他們的滿意度他們認為自己的意見有沒有被反映這件事情我們再來做一次追蹤好不好因為我覺得這件事情真的很重要那剛剛又回到剛剛講的你剛剛說他們今天意見回來之後回來之後呢我們下一次可能再做這一個採購或者再做要把這個納入考慮嘛但這個又會形成下一個問題就是我們的採購的那一個人的那個組成\n458274\t479141\t因為我們今天在採購這些這個個裝的時候那個組成裡面比如說我們今天講到這一些互吸互走等等之類的他也會請一些教授學者專家他可能是針對那個棒數有沒有針對那個針織的方法也提供了一些專業的意見這本來沒什麼問題這是好事但是有時候我們看到比如說那個採購的人裡面比如說七個人裡面\n479921\t501273\t他可能這一個軍種來的人可能一兩個然後有一些就是我剛剛講的紡織的專長什麼等等之類的或許在這個部分也可以想像人數不一定要說軍種的人一定要增加但是就是那一個人他一定要能夠帶到剛剛講的基層的意見因為意見回來然後在採購的時候被反映出來這個新的採購才會有辦法變得更好嘛\n501953\t531376\t这个机制要有一个回馈机制也就是我们确保他们的意见能够上来之后他要能够进入到采购这件事情所以他有两个层次第一个就是我们确保管道的畅通第二个就是我们的采购委员会要确保这个意见有进去不然的话到最后虽然有时候我们知道棒数这个轻量等等之类的这个都是很重要的没有错但是使用经验也是一样的重要所以这个部分希望能够我们在两个月之内我们再来追踪一下这样的一个问题好不好\n532837\t558577\t那再來就是說這一個我也必須要講就是說不管是這個頭盔 夜視鏡我們在問的時候但是我這邊其實是要講的是它是有進步的因為我們在問這些使用者的時候他們的反應是有進步他們的意見有被反應到的跟剛剛那個彈夾不太一樣只是他認為進步的這個幅度沒有外面的有一些廠商來得更快所以導致他們又會想要自己去購買\n559918\t581191\t所以這一個是速度的問題這個倒不是我剛剛講的說已經回饋機制完全的失靈而是說我們剛剛講的除了管道的暢通還有採購委員會的意見的納入之外我覺得速度可能也很重要因為有時候在外面這種競爭的速度很快他們改良的速度很快有一些是因為他們在使用上已經在第一線的戰鬥所以他當然他的回饋機制會更快\n582852\t593978\t我們畢竟現在還沒有這個第一線戰鬥的這個經驗直接的回饋所以可能會慢一些所以這個時候要不要把一些比如說國外的經驗納入什麼等等之類的這個就可能之後我們再來討論好\n596297\t617677\t那再來這一個採購委員會的組成我剛剛有提過所以最後我是想提到一件事情就是說因為我們今天一直在講這些武器的延宕什麼等等之類的那我們當然知道其實我們現在不管是16V F16V又或者說我們一些飛彈的一些採購這些事情它其實是有符合我們軍種的需求\n618297\t640013\t所以跟我剛剛講的情形是不太一樣我們是有需求的而且我們的需求是很強烈比如說我們哪些要數位化哪些我們要做新的系統整合這個是我們以台灣的國軍的角度我們有要求其實當我們的要求越多的時候他們可能比如說他們要開新的產線他們要做新的系統的整合這個時候延宕是可能會被預見的\n640974\t663651\t所以第一件事情是其實如果當我們的要求變多的時候延宕是可以預見的我們不一定要把這個延宕當作是一個壞事因為我們必須要符合我們的作單需求所以我回過頭來想要看就是我們一般的像我現在講的這種個狀的採買等等之類的這些事情我們並沒有說當然延宕是好事但我們是希望說它中間的過程即使稍微冗長一點即使呢\n664531\t690091\t但是能够让作战的需求能够让士兵的需求跟反应能够反映到不管是后续的改善或者采购委员会里面的话说真的即使有时候慢了一点点但反而对我们的国军是好事不然就会形成我这边有画一个图就会变成说有时候我们说我们要太旧换新然后我们要作战需求的一个汇整但有时候上面的长关系对这个非常非常的了解\n690791\t706516\t他們也知道我們的需求是什麼就有時候中階的這些一些長官可能就想說這個需要什麼就盡量趕那時候的士兵本來就想說唉唷 我想出需求我可以解決當前的問題我很開心有沒有但是有時候中間就是為了要去趕這件事情\n707356\t733737\t結果反而會忽略了基層的需求為了趕之後呢然後最後就會變成怎樣呢反正我們先趕快結案不然結案的話我們沒有結案的話我們就沒有這個新品然後這個品質如果出問題的話我們驗收應該怎麼辦到時候可能驗收的標準又改變那時候基層就會覺得說你怎麼前後不一致然後就會開始有點無力回天的感覺然後就可能在網路上開始做一些抱怨這其實就是會沒有一個正向回饋的機制所以一開始那個點反而都是在什麼\n734457\t755665\t都在需要什麼就盡量趕那個右上角在編列預算到審查預算那個中間就是說我要什麼我就盡量趕我一定要如期我什麼事情都要先把這個期限壓好之後我就一定要做到從那一個瞬間開始在組織文化裡面就會造成今天下面的聲音可能會上不來所以我是希望說我們在\n756949\t779721\t符合這個官兵的需求符合作戰的需求跟時間我們要找到一個新的平衡點那不然的話呢我們永遠呢就是說希望就是說我們趕快先把這個做出來因為我們要趕這個年度的預算什麼等等之類的這種時候事情會變得非常沒有彈性那最後呢因為時間的關係我想再問就是廣告最前面有點有跳過的部分就是部長在這一個\n782623\t800570\t5%這件事情有提到就是說這個核心國防的支出應該要超過3%那逐步增加慢慢到5%那當然第一個呢這個我們按照北約的這個計算方式因為北約有這個核心跟非核心的這個支出那部長呢目前我們來講指的這個3%指的是核心的國防支出嗎\n803764\t822034\t3%的部分現在是核心的國防支柱那如果說我們今天逐步增加到5%這個5%指的是核心跟非核心都算在內還是指我們核心就要往這一個5%邁進我想我們會按北約的基準來按北約的基準來做因為我這次在這一個國防工業會議的時候剛剛的核心國防支柱也是按北約的也是按照北約嗎是\n822694\t845569\t因為我們在問的時候其實很多人都很關心這個問題這個北約的這個計算標準其實大家都知道那個細節但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是下面這一個就是說我們到底有沒有足夠的人力去評估或者去應對預算的一個增加這個就有點像是我們有一陣子這個財化法的問題一樣就我們財化法就是要把中央很多錢直接挖走然後到地方問題是地方的人力是沒有增加的\n846169\t867342\t所以他那個預算一下去之後那個公務人員就有點傻住說好 那你現在給我這筆預算你跟我說要做什麼但是我沒有做這些事情的人力我們今天這個人力的配置因為我們當然我們的邊線這是一個問題這就指著我們作戰的這個問題但是光是我們今天預算的增加這件事情它是需要人力去支持跟執行還有因應的\n867962\t888003\t所以人力這件事情呢我們如果要逐步往上升的話我們相關的因為我們有作業維持費我們有這一個這個軍購的費用然後我們有一般的這一個薪水的支出我們有分這幾塊我們有沒有去評估一下我們在人力這一邊有沒有去針對我們要往3% 5%那個方向邁進的那個足夠的人力去做因應\n888884\t915838\t我們會針對我們未來的籌購的這些投資案也好 違資案也好 商購案也好然後所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等我們都要來 三軍都要來做一個調整所以我們會針對潛在的人力需求還有關於整個編制我們都在做一個滾動式的檢討\n916678\t925111\t好 因為時間關係謝謝部長那之後這一個預算的那個部分我可能也會針對這一個去看一下我們這個人力的編制到底有沒有到位是謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝趙偉那有請部長\n是 孫維也好部長好今天大家都很關心這些所謂武器等等延宕的問題當然我們都知道會有一些這個延遲會有一些系統整合的問題這其實跟我們潛艦有遇到類似的問題所以我今天反而因為前面其實真的滿多委員問過了我也覺得說真的這個理由其實我說真的我覺得還滿清楚的\n所以我覺得我想要問的反而是相反的我想要問就是沒有延宕的一個部分我先從一些比較小的地方問起就是說第一個就是像我們現在就是有這些所謂的個裝那我們在做一些這個這個士兵的一些訪談的時候我們就發現就是那一個下面這個彈夾帶他要去拿彈夾的時候呢很容易被上面那個流彈帶卡住這是第一個\n第二個就是這個彈夾帶那個魔鬼氈那個魔鬼氈他有時候他為了要讓他能夠更容易取得他想要就把他往內折一點因為他滿長的他把他往內折之後再拿還是一樣會卡住那時候我們就有問說那為什麼就是你為什麼一定要把這個手榴彈帶把它放在那個上面他說是因為有一些這些長官他會要求他為了要一致就是希望他能夠大家都擺在一樣的位置但因為每個人的這個使用習慣\n使用習慣會不同的時候呢就變成說其實對他來講這個是不方便的但他卻會因為長官的要求變成說他沒有辦法去好好的去拿這一個彈夾所以對我來講就是說這個不管我們的戰術背心不管我們的彈夾帶這一些這些都如期較好這沒有什麼延宕的問題\n但是雖然他沒有什麼延宕的問題但是他在這一個使用的過程當中其實我們的士兵在使用他是需要一些回饋機制這個回饋機制呢就會有因為一些個案會有所不同所以我為什麼我說我今天要提這一點就是因為我們等一下還會再提別的案子但最主要就是說\n即使今天是沒有延宕的我們一些軍備品的採購等等之類的這一些是不是都有到位是不是士兵會滿意在這一邊是不是先請部長做一個簡單的說明\n據我了解就是說我們現在在114年9月10號有頒了一個令就是說就那個官兵可以依照任務導向安全優先跟穿著素食危險者來可以自行調整佩戴的位置跟數量也就是說譬如說那個彈夾帶可以依照個人的習慣然後再調就是說他來調整他的這個\n呃\n位置跟數量這個相關的指導我們在9月10號來已經有辦令了謝謝 因為這一個有時候我覺得這個有幾個層次的問題第一個層次的問題就是它可能是個案我說的個案就是說可能有一些特地的一些中階的長官他可能在這一個下命令的時候他就要求比如整齊花衣什麼等等之類的這一個如果能夠直接跟他要求說不需要這個樣子這個容易解決\n所以我們才會辦這個鏈下去就讓各部隊的長官不需要這樣子是 所以這一個鏈就是說我剛剛講的如果是個別的問題如果有這個鏈下去的話這個容易解決但第二個我要講的就是比如說我們這個在這個背心上的一個設計還有我們這個放的這個位置比如說我們今天要進去比如說我們要到車子裡面有一些車子剛好設計得比較狹窄所以它可能會容易有碰撞又或者說有一些它這個黏性不足有些是黏性太強\n有一些是黏性不足那這一些呢都會有需要一個回饋機制那我們在問的時候呢就會發現說其實這個它的確都如期交付了這個是士兵們也都在使用那這個軍備局它其實會有一個上面會有一個小卡啦上面有一個電話嘛對不對就是說如果你有這一個這個也覺得有什麼問題的話你可以打電話也可以來解決\n但是我們在問這一個士兵的同時我們也發現一個問題就是說如果是那種委外的因為我們國軍有一些委外的他說委外的他們會填一些意見書他覺得這一個回饋的情形是比較好但是在我們軍備這個回饋的情形他們認為是比較差而且就是也有軍種上的差別看起來空軍的滿意度又比較高一點其他的滿意度稍微比較低\n所以就是說因為我們在問的時候我們是廣泛的問廣泛的問的時候我們會發現其實不滿意的士兵他是有滿高的數量其實有時候已經有些已經過半了所以針對這樣的一個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣確保一件事情就是今天基層的士兵他們如果對於哪一些裝備他們覺得有這個使用上的這一個不滿又或者說他們覺得這個還不如就是我自己去添購就算了我們有些核心當然是我們還是都要公發\n但是在這個以外的就是在他們有這個布滿這個回饋機制現在有沒有改進因為我們這個是軍人節的時候問他們的我想第一個就是說國防部必須也要主動來做啦所以現在有會每一季會來邀集這個軍備局跟各軍種就這個這些戰鬥各裝的延改我們需求的延改需求來做一些研討\n所以包括像114年不管是稅貸等等這些的我們都會來延改那115年我的了解好像也要來執行這些包括戶西戶走 水壤還有彈匣貸等等也要來持續來做一個研討\n那官兵的這個管道上面現在是有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統另外還有一個是叫建制幹部將長官這個要不要\n請說各位好 我是侯志士市長那針對於這個反應的部分第一個 我們每一季在開會之前我們會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的所有意見來跟各軍種做研討第二個 同時你向你的上級長官反應之後反應到司令部他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭的資料讓我們來大家各軍種參與研討\n那當然有些官士兵會認為說可能外國的裝備或是說他們看過一些更先進的裝備會比較好但是如果說我們統一讓他們去採購的話第一個價格可能會有很大的差異性第二個安全保障我們沒有辦法做到一致性\n因為剛剛也有提到互吸互走我們在問的時候也有問到說互吸互走比較容易磨破什麼等等之類這個也都有在反映剛剛有講到就是說因為我們的確有一些人是滿意的但是不滿意的有在之前有一定的數量所以現在我們就是反正這些事情只要是改進都不是問題\n所以我希望呢就是剛剛講的這些事情呢比如說我們兩個月之內兩個月之內之後我們再來追蹤一次就是說這個士兵現在他們對於這種公發的他們的滿意度他們認為自己的意見有沒有被反映這件事情我們再來做一次追蹤好不好因為我覺得這件事情真的很重要那剛剛又回到剛剛講的你剛剛說他們今天意見回來之後回來之後呢我們下一次可能再做這一個採購或者再做要把這個納入考慮嘛但這個又會形成下一個問題就是我們的採購的那一個人的那個組成\n因為我們今天在採購這些這個個裝的時候那個組成裡面比如說我們今天講到這一些互吸互走等等之類的他也會請一些教授學者專家他可能是針對那個棒數有沒有針對那個針織的方法也提供了一些專業的意見這本來沒什麼問題這是好事但是有時候我們看到比如說那個採購的人裡面比如說七個人裡面\n他可能這一個軍種來的人可能一兩個然後有一些就是我剛剛講的紡織的專長什麼等等之類的或許在這個部分也可以想像人數不一定要說軍種的人一定要增加但是就是那一個人他一定要能夠帶到剛剛講的基層的意見因為意見回來然後在採購的時候被反映出來這個新的採購才會有辦法變得更好嘛\n这个机制要有一个回馈机制也就是我们确保他们的意见能够上来之后他要能够进入到采购这件事情所以他有两个层次第一个就是我们确保管道的畅通第二个就是我们的采购委员会要确保这个意见有进去不然的话到最后虽然有时候我们知道棒数这个轻量等等之类的这个都是很重要的没有错但是使用经验也是一样的重要所以这个部分希望能够我们在两个月之内我们再来追踪一下这样的一个问题好不好\n那再來就是說這一個我也必須要講就是說不管是這個頭盔 夜視鏡我們在問的時候但是我這邊其實是要講的是它是有進步的因為我們在問這些使用者的時候他們的反應是有進步他們的意見有被反應到的跟剛剛那個彈夾不太一樣只是他認為進步的這個幅度沒有外面的有一些廠商來得更快所以導致他們又會想要自己去購買\n所以這一個是速度的問題這個倒不是我剛剛講的說已經回饋機制完全的失靈而是說我們剛剛講的除了管道的暢通還有採購委員會的意見的納入之外我覺得速度可能也很重要因為有時候在外面這種競爭的速度很快他們改良的速度很快有一些是因為他們在使用上已經在第一線的戰鬥所以他當然他的回饋機制會更快\n我們畢竟現在還沒有這個第一線戰鬥的這個經驗直接的回饋所以可能會慢一些所以這個時候要不要把一些比如說國外的經驗納入什麼等等之類的這個就可能之後我們再來討論好\n那再來這一個採購委員會的組成我剛剛有提過所以最後我是想提到一件事情就是說因為我們今天一直在講這些武器的延宕什麼等等之類的那我們當然知道其實我們現在不管是16V F16V又或者說我們一些飛彈的一些採購這些事情它其實是有符合我們軍種的需求\n所以跟我剛剛講的情形是不太一樣我們是有需求的而且我們的需求是很強烈比如說我們哪些要數位化哪些我們要做新的系統整合這個是我們以台灣的國軍的角度我們有要求其實當我們的要求越多的時候他們可能比如說他們要開新的產線他們要做新的系統的整合這個時候延宕是可能會被預見的\n所以第一件事情是其實如果當我們的要求變多的時候延宕是可以預見的我們不一定要把這個延宕當作是一個壞事因為我們必須要符合我們的作單需求所以我回過頭來想要看就是我們一般的像我現在講的這種個狀的採買等等之類的這些事情我們並沒有說當然延宕是好事但我們是希望說它中間的過程即使稍微冗長一點即使呢\n但是能够让作战的需求能够让士兵的需求跟反应能够反映到不管是后续的改善或者采购委员会里面的话说真的即使有时候慢了一点点但反而对我们的国军是好事不然就会形成我这边有画一个图就会变成说有时候我们说我们要太旧换新然后我们要作战需求的一个汇整但有时候上面的长关系对这个非常非常的了解\n他們也知道我們的需求是什麼就有時候中階的這些一些長官可能就想說這個需要什麼就盡量趕那時候的士兵本來就想說唉唷 我想出需求我可以解決當前的問題我很開心有沒有但是有時候中間就是為了要去趕這件事情\n結果反而會忽略了基層的需求為了趕之後呢然後最後就會變成怎樣呢反正我們先趕快結案不然結案的話我們沒有結案的話我們就沒有這個新品然後這個品質如果出問題的話我們驗收應該怎麼辦到時候可能驗收的標準又改變那時候基層就會覺得說你怎麼前後不一致然後就會開始有點無力回天的感覺然後就可能在網路上開始做一些抱怨這其實就是會沒有一個正向回饋的機制所以一開始那個點反而都是在什麼\n都在需要什麼就盡量趕那個右上角在編列預算到審查預算那個中間就是說我要什麼我就盡量趕我一定要如期我什麼事情都要先把這個期限壓好之後我就一定要做到從那一個瞬間開始在組織文化裡面就會造成今天下面的聲音可能會上不來所以我是希望說我們在\n符合這個官兵的需求符合作戰的需求跟時間我們要找到一個新的平衡點那不然的話呢我們永遠呢就是說希望就是說我們趕快先把這個做出來因為我們要趕這個年度的預算什麼等等之類的這種時候事情會變得非常沒有彈性那最後呢因為時間的關係我想再問就是廣告最前面有點有跳過的部分就是部長在這一個\n5%這件事情有提到就是說這個核心國防的支出應該要超過3%那逐步增加慢慢到5%那當然第一個呢這個我們按照北約的這個計算方式因為北約有這個核心跟非核心的這個支出那部長呢目前我們來講指的這個3%指的是核心的國防支出嗎\n3%的部分現在是核心的國防支柱那如果說我們今天逐步增加到5%這個5%指的是核心跟非核心都算在內還是指我們核心就要往這一個5%邁進我想我們會按北約的基準來按北約的基準來做因為我這次在這一個國防工業會議的時候剛剛的核心國防支柱也是按北約的也是按照北約嗎是\n因為我們在問的時候其實很多人都很關心這個問題這個北約的這個計算標準其實大家都知道那個細節但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是下面這一個就是說我們到底有沒有足夠的人力去評估或者去應對預算的一個增加這個就有點像是我們有一陣子這個財化法的問題一樣就我們財化法就是要把中央很多錢直接挖走然後到地方問題是地方的人力是沒有增加的\n所以他那個預算一下去之後那個公務人員就有點傻住說好 那你現在給我這筆預算你跟我說要做什麼但是我沒有做這些事情的人力我們今天這個人力的配置因為我們當然我們的邊線這是一個問題這就指著我們作戰的這個問題但是光是我們今天預算的增加這件事情它是需要人力去支持跟執行還有因應的\n所以人力這件事情呢我們如果要逐步往上升的話我們相關的因為我們有作業維持費我們有這一個這個軍購的費用然後我們有一般的這一個薪水的支出我們有分這幾塊我們有沒有去評估一下我們在人力這一邊有沒有去針對我們要往3% 5%那個方向邁進的那個足夠的人力去做因應\n我們會針對我們未來的籌購的這些投資案也好 違資案也好 商購案也好然後所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等我們都要來 三軍都要來做一個調整所以我們會針對潛在的人力需求還有關於整個編制我們都在做一個滾動式的檢討\n好 因為時間關係謝謝部長那之後這一個預算的那個部分我可能也會針對這一個去看一下我們這個人力的編制到底有沒有到位是謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:00.230\n謝謝趙偉那有請部長\n\n00:10.889 --> 00:34.816\n是孫維也好部長好今天大家都很關心這些所謂武器等等延宕的問題當然我們都知道會有一些這個延遲會有一些系統整合的問題這其實跟我們潛艦有遇到類似的問題所以我今天反而因為前面其實真的滿多委員問過了我也覺得說真的這個理由其實我說真的我覺得還滿清楚的\n\n00:35.396 --> 01:00.049\n所以我覺得我想要問的反而是相反的我想要問就是沒有延宕的一個部分我先從一些比較小的地方問起就是說第一個就是像我們現在就是有這些所謂的個裝那我們在做一些這個這個士兵的一些訪談的時候我們就發現就是那一個下面這個彈夾帶他要去拿彈夾的時候呢很容易被上面那個流彈帶卡住這是第一個\n\n01:00.919 --> 01:29.801\n第二個就是這個彈夾帶那個魔鬼氈那個魔鬼氈他有時候他為了要讓他能夠更容易取得他想要就把他往內折一點因為他滿長的他把他往內折之後再拿還是一樣會卡住那時候我們就有問說那為什麼就是你為什麼一定要把這個手榴彈帶把它放在那個上面他說是因為有一些這些長官他會要求他為了要一致就是希望他能夠大家都擺在一樣的位置但因為每個人的這個使用習慣\n\n01:31.843 --> 01:49.963\n使用習慣會不同的時候呢就變成說其實對他來講這個是不方便的但他卻會因為長官的要求變成說他沒有辦法去好好的去拿這一個彈夾所以對我來講就是說這個不管我們的戰術背心不管我們的彈夾帶這一些這些都如期較好這沒有什麼延宕的問題\n\n01:51.184 --> 02:09.087\n但是雖然他沒有什麼延宕的問題但是他在這一個使用的過程當中其實我們的士兵在使用他是需要一些回饋機制這個回饋機制呢就會有因為一些個案會有所不同所以我為什麼我說我今天要提這一點就是因為我們等一下還會再提別的案子但最主要就是說\n\n02:09.728 --> 02:20.982\n即使今天是沒有延宕的我們一些軍備品的採購等等之類的這一些是不是都有到位是不是士兵會滿意在這一邊是不是先請部長做一個簡單的說明\n\n02:23.093 --> 02:49.652\n據我了解就是說我們現在在114年9月10號有頒了一個令就是說就那個官兵可以依照任務導向安全優先跟穿著素食危險者來可以自行調整佩戴的位置跟數量也就是說譬如說那個彈夾帶可以依照個人的習慣然後再調就是說他來調整他的這個\n\n02:53.286 --> 03:21.915\n位置跟數量這個相關的指導我們在9月10號來已經有辦令了謝謝因為這一個有時候我覺得這個有幾個層次的問題第一個層次的問題就是它可能是個案我說的個案就是說可能有一些特地的一些中階的長官他可能在這一個下命令的時候他就要求比如整齊花衣什麼等等之類的這一個如果能夠直接跟他要求說不需要這個樣子這個容易解決\n\n03:22.815 --> 03:51.110\n所以我們才會辦這個鏈下去就讓各部隊的長官不需要這樣子是所以這一個鏈就是說我剛剛講的如果是個別的問題如果有這個鏈下去的話這個容易解決但第二個我要講的就是比如說我們這個在這個背心上的一個設計還有我們這個放的這個位置比如說我們今天要進去比如說我們要到車子裡面有一些車子剛好設計得比較狹窄所以它可能會容易有碰撞又或者說有一些它這個黏性不足有些是黏性太強\n\n03:51.730 --> 04:13.364\n有一些是黏性不足那這一些呢都會有需要一個回饋機制那我們在問的時候呢就會發現說其實這個它的確都如期交付了這個是士兵們也都在使用那這個軍備局它其實會有一個上面會有一個小卡啦上面有一個電話嘛對不對就是說如果你有這一個這個也覺得有什麼問題的話你可以打電話也可以來解決\n\n04:14.665 --> 04:38.704\n但是我們在問這一個士兵的同時我們也發現一個問題就是說如果是那種委外的因為我們國軍有一些委外的他說委外的他們會填一些意見書他覺得這一個回饋的情形是比較好但是在我們軍備這個回饋的情形他們認為是比較差而且就是也有軍種上的差別看起來空軍的滿意度又比較高一點其他的滿意度稍微比較低\n\n04:39.244 --> 05:06.743\n所以就是說因為我們在問的時候我們是廣泛的問廣泛的問的時候我們會發現其實不滿意的士兵他是有滿高的數量其實有時候已經有些已經過半了所以針對這樣的一個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣確保一件事情就是今天基層的士兵他們如果對於哪一些裝備他們覺得有這個使用上的這一個不滿又或者說他們覺得這個還不如就是我自己去添購就算了我們有些核心當然是我們還是都要公發\n\n05:07.483 --> 05:34.321\n但是在這個以外的就是在他們有這個布滿這個回饋機制現在有沒有改進因為我們這個是軍人節的時候問他們的我想第一個就是說國防部必須也要主動來做啦所以現在有會每一季會來邀集這個軍備局跟各軍種就這個這些戰鬥各裝的延改我們需求的延改需求來做一些研討\n\n05:36.644 --> 05:54.963\n所以包括像114年不管是稅貸等等這些的我們都會來延改那115年我的了解好像也要來執行這些包括戶西戶走水壤還有彈匣貸等等也要來持續來做一個研討\n\n05:56.064 --> 06:06.019\n那官兵的這個管道上面現在是有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統另外還有一個是叫建制幹部將長官這個要不要\n\n06:10.973 --> 06:31.652\n請說各位好我是侯志士市長那針對於這個反應的部分第一個我們每一季在開會之前我們會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的所有意見來跟各軍種做研討第二個同時你向你的上級長官反應之後反應到司令部他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭的資料讓我們來大家各軍種參與研討\n\n06:33.154 --> 06:47.861\n那當然有些官士兵會認為說可能外國的裝備或是說他們看過一些更先進的裝備會比較好但是如果說我們統一讓他們去採購的話第一個價格可能會有很大的差異性第二個安全保障我們沒有辦法做到一致性\n\n06:49.502 --> 07:07.422\n因為剛剛也有提到互吸互走我們在問的時候也有問到說互吸互走比較容易磨破什麼等等之類這個也都有在反映剛剛有講到就是說因為我們的確有一些人是滿意的但是不滿意的有在之前有一定的數量所以現在我們就是反正這些事情只要是改進都不是問題\n\n07:08.183 --> 07:36.850\n所以我希望呢就是剛剛講的這些事情呢比如說我們兩個月之內兩個月之內之後我們再來追蹤一次就是說這個士兵現在他們對於這種公發的他們的滿意度他們認為自己的意見有沒有被反映這件事情我們再來做一次追蹤好不好因為我覺得這件事情真的很重要那剛剛又回到剛剛講的你剛剛說他們今天意見回來之後回來之後呢我們下一次可能再做這一個採購或者再做要把這個納入考慮嘛但這個又會形成下一個問題就是我們的採購的那一個人的那個組成\n\n07:38.274 --> 07:59.141\n因為我們今天在採購這些這個個裝的時候那個組成裡面比如說我們今天講到這一些互吸互走等等之類的他也會請一些教授學者專家他可能是針對那個棒數有沒有針對那個針織的方法也提供了一些專業的意見這本來沒什麼問題這是好事但是有時候我們看到比如說那個採購的人裡面比如說七個人裡面\n\n07:59.921 --> 08:21.273\n他可能這一個軍種來的人可能一兩個然後有一些就是我剛剛講的紡織的專長什麼等等之類的或許在這個部分也可以想像人數不一定要說軍種的人一定要增加但是就是那一個人他一定要能夠帶到剛剛講的基層的意見因為意見回來然後在採購的時候被反映出來這個新的採購才會有辦法變得更好嘛\n\n08:21.953 --> 08:51.376\n这个机制要有一个回馈机制也就是我们确保他们的意见能够上来之后他要能够进入到采购这件事情所以他有两个层次第一个就是我们确保管道的畅通第二个就是我们的采购委员会要确保这个意见有进去不然的话到最后虽然有时候我们知道棒数这个轻量等等之类的这个都是很重要的没有错但是使用经验也是一样的重要所以这个部分希望能够我们在两个月之内我们再来追踪一下这样的一个问题好不好\n\n08:52.837 --> 09:18.577\n那再來就是說這一個我也必須要講就是說不管是這個頭盔夜視鏡我們在問的時候但是我這邊其實是要講的是它是有進步的因為我們在問這些使用者的時候他們的反應是有進步他們的意見有被反應到的跟剛剛那個彈夾不太一樣只是他認為進步的這個幅度沒有外面的有一些廠商來得更快所以導致他們又會想要自己去購買\n\n09:19.918 --> 09:41.191\n所以這一個是速度的問題這個倒不是我剛剛講的說已經回饋機制完全的失靈而是說我們剛剛講的除了管道的暢通還有採購委員會的意見的納入之外我覺得速度可能也很重要因為有時候在外面這種競爭的速度很快他們改良的速度很快有一些是因為他們在使用上已經在第一線的戰鬥所以他當然他的回饋機制會更快\n\n09:42.852 --> 09:53.978\n我們畢竟現在還沒有這個第一線戰鬥的這個經驗直接的回饋所以可能會慢一些所以這個時候要不要把一些比如說國外的經驗納入什麼等等之類的這個就可能之後我們再來討論好\n\n09:56.297 --> 10:17.677\n那再來這一個採購委員會的組成我剛剛有提過所以最後我是想提到一件事情就是說因為我們今天一直在講這些武器的延宕什麼等等之類的那我們當然知道其實我們現在不管是16VF16V又或者說我們一些飛彈的一些採購這些事情它其實是有符合我們軍種的需求\n\n10:18.297 --> 10:40.013\n所以跟我剛剛講的情形是不太一樣我們是有需求的而且我們的需求是很強烈比如說我們哪些要數位化哪些我們要做新的系統整合這個是我們以台灣的國軍的角度我們有要求其實當我們的要求越多的時候他們可能比如說他們要開新的產線他們要做新的系統的整合這個時候延宕是可能會被預見的\n\n10:40.974 --> 11:03.651\n所以第一件事情是其實如果當我們的要求變多的時候延宕是可以預見的我們不一定要把這個延宕當作是一個壞事因為我們必須要符合我們的作單需求所以我回過頭來想要看就是我們一般的像我現在講的這種個狀的採買等等之類的這些事情我們並沒有說當然延宕是好事但我們是希望說它中間的過程即使稍微冗長一點即使呢\n\n11:04.531 --> 11:30.091\n但是能够让作战的需求能够让士兵的需求跟反应能够反映到不管是后续的改善或者采购委员会里面的话说真的即使有时候慢了一点点但反而对我们的国军是好事不然就会形成我这边有画一个图就会变成说有时候我们说我们要太旧换新然后我们要作战需求的一个汇整但有时候上面的长关系对这个非常非常的了解\n\n11:30.791 --> 11:46.516\n他們也知道我們的需求是什麼就有時候中階的這些一些長官可能就想說這個需要什麼就盡量趕那時候的士兵本來就想說唉唷我想出需求我可以解決當前的問題我很開心有沒有但是有時候中間就是為了要去趕這件事情\n\n11:47.356 --> 12:13.737\n結果反而會忽略了基層的需求為了趕之後呢然後最後就會變成怎樣呢反正我們先趕快結案不然結案的話我們沒有結案的話我們就沒有這個新品然後這個品質如果出問題的話我們驗收應該怎麼辦到時候可能驗收的標準又改變那時候基層就會覺得說你怎麼前後不一致然後就會開始有點無力回天的感覺然後就可能在網路上開始做一些抱怨這其實就是會沒有一個正向回饋的機制所以一開始那個點反而都是在什麼\n\n12:14.457 --> 12:35.665\n都在需要什麼就盡量趕那個右上角在編列預算到審查預算那個中間就是說我要什麼我就盡量趕我一定要如期我什麼事情都要先把這個期限壓好之後我就一定要做到從那一個瞬間開始在組織文化裡面就會造成今天下面的聲音可能會上不來所以我是希望說我們在\n\n12:36.949 --> 12:59.721\n符合這個官兵的需求符合作戰的需求跟時間我們要找到一個新的平衡點那不然的話呢我們永遠呢就是說希望就是說我們趕快先把這個做出來因為我們要趕這個年度的預算什麼等等之類的這種時候事情會變得非常沒有彈性那最後呢因為時間的關係我想再問就是廣告最前面有點有跳過的部分就是部長在這一個\n\n13:02.623 --> 13:20.570\n5%這件事情有提到就是說這個核心國防的支出應該要超過3%那逐步增加慢慢到5%那當然第一個呢這個我們按照北約的這個計算方式因為北約有這個核心跟非核心的這個支出那部長呢目前我們來講指的這個3%指的是核心的國防支出嗎\n\n13:23.764 --> 13:42.034\n3%的部分現在是核心的國防支柱那如果說我們今天逐步增加到5%這個5%指的是核心跟非核心都算在內還是指我們核心就要往這一個5%邁進我想我們會按北約的基準來按北約的基準來做因為我這次在這一個國防工業會議的時候剛剛的核心國防支柱也是按北約的也是按照北約嗎是\n\n13:42.694 --> 14:05.569\n因為我們在問的時候其實很多人都很關心這個問題這個北約的這個計算標準其實大家都知道那個細節但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是下面這一個就是說我們到底有沒有足夠的人力去評估或者去應對預算的一個增加這個就有點像是我們有一陣子這個財化法的問題一樣就我們財化法就是要把中央很多錢直接挖走然後到地方問題是地方的人力是沒有增加的\n\n14:06.169 --> 14:27.342\n所以他那個預算一下去之後那個公務人員就有點傻住說好那你現在給我這筆預算你跟我說要做什麼但是我沒有做這些事情的人力我們今天這個人力的配置因為我們當然我們的邊線這是一個問題這就指著我們作戰的這個問題但是光是我們今天預算的增加這件事情它是需要人力去支持跟執行還有因應的\n\n14:27.962 --> 14:48.003\n所以人力這件事情呢我們如果要逐步往上升的話我們相關的因為我們有作業維持費我們有這一個這個軍購的費用然後我們有一般的這一個薪水的支出我們有分這幾塊我們有沒有去評估一下我們在人力這一邊有沒有去針對我們要往3%5%那個方向邁進的那個足夠的人力去做因應\n\n14:48.884 --> 15:15.838\n我們會針對我們未來的籌購的這些投資案也好違資案也好商購案也好然後所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等我們都要來三軍都要來做一個調整所以我們會針對潛在的人力需求還有關於整個編制我們都在做一個滾動式的檢討\n\n15:16.678 --> 15:25.111\n好因為時間關係謝謝部長那之後這一個預算的那個部分我可能也會針對這一個去看一下我們這個人力的編制到底有沒有到位是謝謝謝謝主席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.23,"text":"謝謝趙偉那有請部長"},{"start":10.889,"end":34.816,"text":"是 孫維也好部長好今天大家都很關心這些所謂武器等等延宕的問題當然我們都知道會有一些這個延遲會有一些系統整合的問題這其實跟我們潛艦有遇到類似的問題所以我今天反而因為前面其實真的滿多委員問過了我也覺得說真的這個理由其實我說真的我覺得還滿清楚的"},{"start":35.396,"end":60.049,"text":"所以我覺得我想要問的反而是相反的我想要問就是沒有延宕的一個部分我先從一些比較小的地方問起就是說第一個就是像我們現在就是有這些所謂的個裝那我們在做一些這個這個士兵的一些訪談的時候我們就發現就是那一個下面這個彈夾帶他要去拿彈夾的時候呢很容易被上面那個流彈帶卡住這是第一個"},{"start":60.919,"end":89.801,"text":"第二個就是這個彈夾帶那個魔鬼氈那個魔鬼氈他有時候他為了要讓他能夠更容易取得他想要就把他往內折一點因為他滿長的他把他往內折之後再拿還是一樣會卡住那時候我們就有問說那為什麼就是你為什麼一定要把這個手榴彈帶把它放在那個上面他說是因為有一些這些長官他會要求他為了要一致就是希望他能夠大家都擺在一樣的位置但因為每個人的這個使用習慣"},{"start":91.843,"end":109.963,"text":"使用習慣會不同的時候呢就變成說其實對他來講這個是不方便的但他卻會因為長官的要求變成說他沒有辦法去好好的去拿這一個彈夾所以對我來講就是說這個不管我們的戰術背心不管我們的彈夾帶這一些這些都如期較好這沒有什麼延宕的問題"},{"start":111.184,"end":129.087,"text":"但是雖然他沒有什麼延宕的問題但是他在這一個使用的過程當中其實我們的士兵在使用他是需要一些回饋機制這個回饋機制呢就會有因為一些個案會有所不同所以我為什麼我說我今天要提這一點就是因為我們等一下還會再提別的案子但最主要就是說"},{"start":129.728,"end":140.982,"text":"即使今天是沒有延宕的我們一些軍備品的採購等等之類的這一些是不是都有到位是不是士兵會滿意在這一邊是不是先請部長做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":143.093,"end":169.652,"text":"據我了解就是說我們現在在114年9月10號有頒了一個令就是說就那個官兵可以依照任務導向安全優先跟穿著素食危險者來可以自行調整佩戴的位置跟數量也就是說譬如說那個彈夾帶可以依照個人的習慣然後再調就是說他來調整他的這個"},{"start":171.971,"end":172.381,"text":"呃"},{"start":173.286,"end":201.915,"text":"位置跟數量這個相關的指導我們在9月10號來已經有辦令了謝謝 因為這一個有時候我覺得這個有幾個層次的問題第一個層次的問題就是它可能是個案我說的個案就是說可能有一些特地的一些中階的長官他可能在這一個下命令的時候他就要求比如整齊花衣什麼等等之類的這一個如果能夠直接跟他要求說不需要這個樣子這個容易解決"},{"start":202.815,"end":231.11,"text":"所以我們才會辦這個鏈下去就讓各部隊的長官不需要這樣子是 所以這一個鏈就是說我剛剛講的如果是個別的問題如果有這個鏈下去的話這個容易解決但第二個我要講的就是比如說我們這個在這個背心上的一個設計還有我們這個放的這個位置比如說我們今天要進去比如說我們要到車子裡面有一些車子剛好設計得比較狹窄所以它可能會容易有碰撞又或者說有一些它這個黏性不足有些是黏性太強"},{"start":231.73,"end":253.364,"text":"有一些是黏性不足那這一些呢都會有需要一個回饋機制那我們在問的時候呢就會發現說其實這個它的確都如期交付了這個是士兵們也都在使用那這個軍備局它其實會有一個上面會有一個小卡啦上面有一個電話嘛對不對就是說如果你有這一個這個也覺得有什麼問題的話你可以打電話也可以來解決"},{"start":254.665,"end":278.704,"text":"但是我們在問這一個士兵的同時我們也發現一個問題就是說如果是那種委外的因為我們國軍有一些委外的他說委外的他們會填一些意見書他覺得這一個回饋的情形是比較好但是在我們軍備這個回饋的情形他們認為是比較差而且就是也有軍種上的差別看起來空軍的滿意度又比較高一點其他的滿意度稍微比較低"},{"start":279.244,"end":306.743,"text":"所以就是說因為我們在問的時候我們是廣泛的問廣泛的問的時候我們會發現其實不滿意的士兵他是有滿高的數量其實有時候已經有些已經過半了所以針對這樣的一個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣確保一件事情就是今天基層的士兵他們如果對於哪一些裝備他們覺得有這個使用上的這一個不滿又或者說他們覺得這個還不如就是我自己去添購就算了我們有些核心當然是我們還是都要公發"},{"start":307.483,"end":334.321,"text":"但是在這個以外的就是在他們有這個布滿這個回饋機制現在有沒有改進因為我們這個是軍人節的時候問他們的我想第一個就是說國防部必須也要主動來做啦所以現在有會每一季會來邀集這個軍備局跟各軍種就這個這些戰鬥各裝的延改我們需求的延改需求來做一些研討"},{"start":336.644,"end":354.963,"text":"所以包括像114年不管是稅貸等等這些的我們都會來延改那115年我的了解好像也要來執行這些包括戶西戶走 水壤還有彈匣貸等等也要來持續來做一個研討"},{"start":356.064,"end":366.019,"text":"那官兵的這個管道上面現在是有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統另外還有一個是叫建制幹部將長官這個要不要"},{"start":370.973,"end":391.652,"text":"請說各位好 我是侯志士市長那針對於這個反應的部分第一個 我們每一季在開會之前我們會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的所有意見來跟各軍種做研討第二個 同時你向你的上級長官反應之後反應到司令部他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭的資料讓我們來大家各軍種參與研討"},{"start":393.154,"end":407.861,"text":"那當然有些官士兵會認為說可能外國的裝備或是說他們看過一些更先進的裝備會比較好但是如果說我們統一讓他們去採購的話第一個價格可能會有很大的差異性第二個安全保障我們沒有辦法做到一致性"},{"start":409.502,"end":427.422,"text":"因為剛剛也有提到互吸互走我們在問的時候也有問到說互吸互走比較容易磨破什麼等等之類這個也都有在反映剛剛有講到就是說因為我們的確有一些人是滿意的但是不滿意的有在之前有一定的數量所以現在我們就是反正這些事情只要是改進都不是問題"},{"start":428.183,"end":456.85,"text":"所以我希望呢就是剛剛講的這些事情呢比如說我們兩個月之內兩個月之內之後我們再來追蹤一次就是說這個士兵現在他們對於這種公發的他們的滿意度他們認為自己的意見有沒有被反映這件事情我們再來做一次追蹤好不好因為我覺得這件事情真的很重要那剛剛又回到剛剛講的你剛剛說他們今天意見回來之後回來之後呢我們下一次可能再做這一個採購或者再做要把這個納入考慮嘛但這個又會形成下一個問題就是我們的採購的那一個人的那個組成"},{"start":458.274,"end":479.141,"text":"因為我們今天在採購這些這個個裝的時候那個組成裡面比如說我們今天講到這一些互吸互走等等之類的他也會請一些教授學者專家他可能是針對那個棒數有沒有針對那個針織的方法也提供了一些專業的意見這本來沒什麼問題這是好事但是有時候我們看到比如說那個採購的人裡面比如說七個人裡面"},{"start":479.921,"end":501.273,"text":"他可能這一個軍種來的人可能一兩個然後有一些就是我剛剛講的紡織的專長什麼等等之類的或許在這個部分也可以想像人數不一定要說軍種的人一定要增加但是就是那一個人他一定要能夠帶到剛剛講的基層的意見因為意見回來然後在採購的時候被反映出來這個新的採購才會有辦法變得更好嘛"},{"start":501.953,"end":531.376,"text":"这个机制要有一个回馈机制也就是我们确保他们的意见能够上来之后他要能够进入到采购这件事情所以他有两个层次第一个就是我们确保管道的畅通第二个就是我们的采购委员会要确保这个意见有进去不然的话到最后虽然有时候我们知道棒数这个轻量等等之类的这个都是很重要的没有错但是使用经验也是一样的重要所以这个部分希望能够我们在两个月之内我们再来追踪一下这样的一个问题好不好"},{"start":532.837,"end":558.577,"text":"那再來就是說這一個我也必須要講就是說不管是這個頭盔 夜視鏡我們在問的時候但是我這邊其實是要講的是它是有進步的因為我們在問這些使用者的時候他們的反應是有進步他們的意見有被反應到的跟剛剛那個彈夾不太一樣只是他認為進步的這個幅度沒有外面的有一些廠商來得更快所以導致他們又會想要自己去購買"},{"start":559.918,"end":581.191,"text":"所以這一個是速度的問題這個倒不是我剛剛講的說已經回饋機制完全的失靈而是說我們剛剛講的除了管道的暢通還有採購委員會的意見的納入之外我覺得速度可能也很重要因為有時候在外面這種競爭的速度很快他們改良的速度很快有一些是因為他們在使用上已經在第一線的戰鬥所以他當然他的回饋機制會更快"},{"start":582.852,"end":593.978,"text":"我們畢竟現在還沒有這個第一線戰鬥的這個經驗直接的回饋所以可能會慢一些所以這個時候要不要把一些比如說國外的經驗納入什麼等等之類的這個就可能之後我們再來討論好"},{"start":596.297,"end":617.677,"text":"那再來這一個採購委員會的組成我剛剛有提過所以最後我是想提到一件事情就是說因為我們今天一直在講這些武器的延宕什麼等等之類的那我們當然知道其實我們現在不管是16V F16V又或者說我們一些飛彈的一些採購這些事情它其實是有符合我們軍種的需求"},{"start":618.297,"end":640.013,"text":"所以跟我剛剛講的情形是不太一樣我們是有需求的而且我們的需求是很強烈比如說我們哪些要數位化哪些我們要做新的系統整合這個是我們以台灣的國軍的角度我們有要求其實當我們的要求越多的時候他們可能比如說他們要開新的產線他們要做新的系統的整合這個時候延宕是可能會被預見的"},{"start":640.974,"end":663.651,"text":"所以第一件事情是其實如果當我們的要求變多的時候延宕是可以預見的我們不一定要把這個延宕當作是一個壞事因為我們必須要符合我們的作單需求所以我回過頭來想要看就是我們一般的像我現在講的這種個狀的採買等等之類的這些事情我們並沒有說當然延宕是好事但我們是希望說它中間的過程即使稍微冗長一點即使呢"},{"start":664.531,"end":690.091,"text":"但是能够让作战的需求能够让士兵的需求跟反应能够反映到不管是后续的改善或者采购委员会里面的话说真的即使有时候慢了一点点但反而对我们的国军是好事不然就会形成我这边有画一个图就会变成说有时候我们说我们要太旧换新然后我们要作战需求的一个汇整但有时候上面的长关系对这个非常非常的了解"},{"start":690.791,"end":706.516,"text":"他們也知道我們的需求是什麼就有時候中階的這些一些長官可能就想說這個需要什麼就盡量趕那時候的士兵本來就想說唉唷 我想出需求我可以解決當前的問題我很開心有沒有但是有時候中間就是為了要去趕這件事情"},{"start":707.356,"end":733.737,"text":"結果反而會忽略了基層的需求為了趕之後呢然後最後就會變成怎樣呢反正我們先趕快結案不然結案的話我們沒有結案的話我們就沒有這個新品然後這個品質如果出問題的話我們驗收應該怎麼辦到時候可能驗收的標準又改變那時候基層就會覺得說你怎麼前後不一致然後就會開始有點無力回天的感覺然後就可能在網路上開始做一些抱怨這其實就是會沒有一個正向回饋的機制所以一開始那個點反而都是在什麼"},{"start":734.457,"end":755.665,"text":"都在需要什麼就盡量趕那個右上角在編列預算到審查預算那個中間就是說我要什麼我就盡量趕我一定要如期我什麼事情都要先把這個期限壓好之後我就一定要做到從那一個瞬間開始在組織文化裡面就會造成今天下面的聲音可能會上不來所以我是希望說我們在"},{"start":756.949,"end":779.721,"text":"符合這個官兵的需求符合作戰的需求跟時間我們要找到一個新的平衡點那不然的話呢我們永遠呢就是說希望就是說我們趕快先把這個做出來因為我們要趕這個年度的預算什麼等等之類的這種時候事情會變得非常沒有彈性那最後呢因為時間的關係我想再問就是廣告最前面有點有跳過的部分就是部長在這一個"},{"start":782.623,"end":800.57,"text":"5%這件事情有提到就是說這個核心國防的支出應該要超過3%那逐步增加慢慢到5%那當然第一個呢這個我們按照北約的這個計算方式因為北約有這個核心跟非核心的這個支出那部長呢目前我們來講指的這個3%指的是核心的國防支出嗎"},{"start":803.764,"end":822.034,"text":"3%的部分現在是核心的國防支柱那如果說我們今天逐步增加到5%這個5%指的是核心跟非核心都算在內還是指我們核心就要往這一個5%邁進我想我們會按北約的基準來按北約的基準來做因為我這次在這一個國防工業會議的時候剛剛的核心國防支柱也是按北約的也是按照北約嗎是"},{"start":822.694,"end":845.569,"text":"因為我們在問的時候其實很多人都很關心這個問題這個北約的這個計算標準其實大家都知道那個細節但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是下面這一個就是說我們到底有沒有足夠的人力去評估或者去應對預算的一個增加這個就有點像是我們有一陣子這個財化法的問題一樣就我們財化法就是要把中央很多錢直接挖走然後到地方問題是地方的人力是沒有增加的"},{"start":846.169,"end":867.342,"text":"所以他那個預算一下去之後那個公務人員就有點傻住說好 那你現在給我這筆預算你跟我說要做什麼但是我沒有做這些事情的人力我們今天這個人力的配置因為我們當然我們的邊線這是一個問題這就指著我們作戰的這個問題但是光是我們今天預算的增加這件事情它是需要人力去支持跟執行還有因應的"},{"start":867.962,"end":888.003,"text":"所以人力這件事情呢我們如果要逐步往上升的話我們相關的因為我們有作業維持費我們有這一個這個軍購的費用然後我們有一般的這一個薪水的支出我們有分這幾塊我們有沒有去評估一下我們在人力這一邊有沒有去針對我們要往3% 5%那個方向邁進的那個足夠的人力去做因應"},{"start":888.884,"end":915.838,"text":"我們會針對我們未來的籌購的這些投資案也好 違資案也好 商購案也好然後所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等我們都要來 三軍都要來做一個調整所以我們會針對潛在的人力需求還有關於整個編制我們都在做一個滾動式的檢討"},{"start":916.678,"end":925.111,"text":"好 因為時間關係謝謝部長那之後這一個預算的那個部分我可能也會針對這一個去看一下我們這個人力的編制到底有沒有到位是謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時47分）謝謝召委，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。今天大家都很關心這些武器等等延宕的問題，當然我們都知道會有一些delay、會有一些系統整合的問題，其實潛艦也有遇到類似的問題，所以我今天反而……因為前面真的滿多委員問過了，這些理由說真的我也覺得還滿清楚的，所以我想要問的反而是相反的，我想要問沒有延宕的部分。","我先從一些比較小的地方問起，第一個，像我們現在有所謂的個裝，我們在做一些士兵訪談的時候就發現，關於下面這個彈匣袋，他要去拿彈匣的時候很容易被上面那個榴彈袋卡住，這是第一個；第二個，就是這一個彈匣袋的魔鬼氈，有時候他為了能夠更容易取得而想要把它往內折一點，因為它滿長的，他把它往內折之後再拿還是一樣會卡住。那時候我們就有問說，為什麼你一定要把手榴彈袋放在那個上面？他說因為有一些長官會要求，為了要一致因此希望大家都擺在一樣的位置。但因為每個人的使用習慣會不同，使用習慣不同就變成其實對他來講這個是不方便的，但他卻會因為長官的要求變成沒有辦法好好去拿這一個彈匣。","對我來講，不管是我們的戰術背心、彈匣袋，這些都如期交貨、沒有什麼延宕的問題，雖然它沒有什麼延宕的問題，但是在使用的過程當中，其實我們的士兵在使用是需要一些回饋機制，這個回饋機制就會因為一些個案而有所不同。為什麼我說我今天要提這一點？我等一下還會再提別的案子，最主要就是，即使今天一些軍備品的採購沒有延宕，這些是不是都有到位、是不是士兵會滿意？這部分是不是先請部長做一個簡單的說明？"],["顧部長立雄：據我了解，我們在114年9月10號有頒了一個令，官兵可以依照任務導向、安全優先跟穿著舒適為原則來自行調整佩戴的位置跟數量，譬如說彈匣袋可以依照個人的習慣調整位置跟數量，相關的指導我們在9月10號已經有頒令。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。我覺得這有幾個層次的問題，第一個層次的問題，它可能是個案，我說的個案就是，可能有一些特定的中階長官在下命令的時候就要求要整齊劃一等等之類的，這部分如果能夠直接跟他要求不需要這個樣子，這個容易解決、這個沒有什麼問題。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們才會頒這個令下去，讓各部隊的長官不需要這樣子。"],["沈委員伯洋：是，就像我剛剛講的，假設是個別的問題，如果有這個令下去的話，這個容易解決。但第二個我要講的就是，關於我們在這個背心上的一個設計還有放的位置，比如今天我們要到車子裡面，有些車子剛好設計的比較狹窄，所以他可能會容易有碰撞；又或者說有一些是黏性不足，有些是黏性太強、有一些是黏性不足，這一些都會需要有一個回饋機制。","而我們在問的時候就會發現，這個的確都如期交付了、士兵們也都在使用，軍備局方面其實在上面會有一個小卡、上面有一個電話，如果你覺得有什麼問題的話可以打電話來解決。但是我們在問士兵的同時也發現一個問題就是，如果是那種委外的，因為我們國軍有一些委外的，他說委外的他們會填一些意見書，他覺得回饋的情形是比較好；但是在我們軍備方面的回饋情形，他們認為是比較差；而且也有軍種上的差別，看起來空軍的滿意度又比較高一點，其他的滿意度稍微比較低。而我們在問的時候是廣泛的問，廣泛問的時候我會發現，其實不滿意的士兵有蠻高的數量，其實有些已經過半了。","所以針對這樣的一個問題，我們要怎麼樣確保一件事情，今天基層的士兵如果對於哪一些裝備有使用上的不滿，又或者他們覺得這個還不如自己去添購就算了，我們有一些核心當然還是都要公發，但是在這個以外，就是當他們有不滿，這個的回饋機制現在有沒有改進？因為我們這個是軍人節的時候問他們的。"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，國防部也必須要主動來做，所以現在每一季會邀集軍備局跟各軍種就這些戰鬥個裝的研改需求做一些研討，像114年不管是睡袋等等，這些我們都會來研改；115年部分，依我的了解好像也要來執行，包括護膝、護肘、水囊還有彈匣袋等等，也要來持續來做研討。","在官兵的管道上面，現在有一個叫做國軍官兵滿意度調查系統，另外還有一個是叫建制幹部向長官……這個要不要……"],["沈委員伯洋：請說。"],["李次長鳳翔：委員好，我是後次室次長，針對反映的部分，第一個，我們每一季在開會之前會統整所有官兵服裝滿意度調查裡面的意見來跟各軍種做研討；第二個，同時，你向你的上級長官反映之後反映到司令部，他們來開會的時候也可以提供書面資料或是口頭資料讓各軍種參與研討。","當然有些官士兵會認為，可能外國的裝備或是他們看過一些更先進的裝備會比較好，但是如果我們統一讓他們去採購的話，第一個，價格可能會有很大差異性；第二個，安全保障我沒有辦法做到一致性，以上報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛有提到護膝、護肘，我們在問的時候也有問到說護膝、護肘比較容易磨破等等之類，這個也都有在反映。剛剛有講到，的確有一些人是滿意的，但是不滿意的在之前有一定的數量，反正這些事情只要改進都不是問題。所以我希望剛剛講的這些事情，比如我們2個月之內再來追蹤一次，就是士兵對於這種公發的滿意度，他們認為自己的意見有沒有被反映的這件事情，我們再來做一次追蹤，好不好？"],["李次長鳳翔：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我覺得這件事情真的很重要！","又回到剛剛講的，你剛剛說他們的意見回來之後，下一次再做採購的時候要把這個納入考慮，但這個又會形成下一個問題就是採購人員的組成。因為我們今天在採購這些個裝的時候，那個組成裡面，比如說我們今天講到這一些護膝、護肘等等之類的，他可能也會請一些教授、學者、專家，可能是針對磅數、針對針織的方法提供一些專業的意見，這本來沒什麼問題，這是好事，但是有時候我們看到採購的人，比如說7個人裡面，這一個軍種來的人可能1、2個，然後有一些是我剛剛講的有紡織專長等等之類的，或許在這個部分也可以想像，人數不用說軍種一定要增加，但那一個人一定要能夠帶到剛剛講的基層的意見，因為意見回來，然後在採購的時候被反映出來，這個新的採購才有辦法變得更好，這要有一個回饋機制，也就是說我們確保他們的意見能夠上來，它要能夠進入到採購這件事情，所以它有兩個層次：第一個是我們要確保管道的暢通，第二個是我們的採購委員會要確保這個意見有進去。不然到最後雖然有時候我們知道磅數、輕量等等，這個都是很重要的沒有錯，但是使用經驗也是一樣的重要，所以這個部分希望能夠在兩個月之內再來追蹤一下這樣的問題，好不好？"],["李次長鳳翔：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來，我也必須要講，不管是頭盔還是夜視鏡，我們在問的時候，但我這邊是要講它是有進步的，因為我們在問這些使用者的時候，他們的反映是有進步，他們的意見是有被反映到的，跟剛剛那個彈匣不太一樣，只是他認為進步的幅度沒有外面的一些廠商來得更快，所以導致他們又會想要自己去購買，所以這一個是速度的問題，這個倒不是我剛剛講的，回饋機制已經完全的失靈，我們剛剛講除了管道的暢通還有採購委員會的意見要能夠被納入之外，我覺得速度可能也很重要，因為有時候外面競爭的速度很快，他們改良的速度很快，有一些是因為他們在使用上已經有在第一線戰鬥的經驗，所以它的回饋機制當然會更快，畢竟我們現在還沒有第一線戰鬥經驗的直接回饋，所以可能會慢一些，所以這個時候，看要不要納入一些比如說國外的經驗等等，這個可能之後我們再來討論。","再來，我剛剛有提過採購委員會的組成，所以最後我想提到一件事情，因為我們今天一直在講這些武器的延宕等等，我們當然知道現在不管是F-16V或者是一些飛彈的採購，這些事情它其實是有符合我們軍種的需求，所以跟我剛剛講的情形不太一樣的，我們是有需求的，而且我們的需求很強烈，比如說我們哪些要數位化，哪些要做新的系統整合，這個是我們以臺灣國軍的角度來看，我們有要求，但當我們的要求越多的時候，他們可能要開新的產線、要做新的系統的整合，這個時候延宕是可能會被預見的。","所以第一件事情，當我們的要求變多的時候，延宕是可以預見的，我們不一定要把這個延宕當作是一個壞事，因為我們必須要符合我們的作戰需求。所以我想要回過頭來看，就是我們一般的、像我現在講的個裝的採買等等，我們並沒有說這些事情的延宕是好事，但我們希望即使它中間的過程稍微冗長了一點，但是能夠更反映作戰的需求、士兵的需求，能夠反映到不管是後續的改善或者採購委員會裡面的話，說真的，即使有時候慢了一點點，但對我們的國軍反而是好事，不然就會形成……我這邊有畫一個圖，有時候我們說要汰舊換新、我們要彙整作戰需求，但有時候上面的長官其實對這個非常非常的了解，他們也知道我們的需求是什麼，有時候這些中階長官可能就會想說需要什麼就儘量趕，而士兵認為他有想出需求、可以解決當前的問題，他覺得很開心，但有時候中間就是為了要去「趕」這件事情，結果反而會忽略了基層的需求，為了趕最後會變成怎樣呢？會變成反正我們現在要趕快結案，如果沒有結案的話，我們就沒有新品，如果這個品質出問題的話，我們驗收的時候應該怎麼辦？到時候可能驗收的標準又改變，這時候基層就會覺得你怎麼前後不一致，然後就會開始有點無力回天的感覺，可能就開始在網路上做一些抱怨，這其實就是沒有一個正向回饋的機制，這個一開始的點都是什麼？都是在需要什麼就儘量趕，在圖的右上角，在編列預算到審查預算的中間，就是我要什麼我就儘量趕，因為我一定要如期，我什麼事情都要先把期限壓好，之後我就一定要做到，從那一個瞬間開始，在組織文化裡面，就會造成今天下面的聲音可能會上不來。","所以我希望我們在符合官兵的需求、符合作戰的需求跟時間之下，我們要找到一個新的平衡點，不然的話，我們永遠就是希望趕快先把東西做出來，因為我們要趕這個年度的預算等等，這時候事情就會變得非常沒有彈性。","最後因為時間的關係，我想再問剛剛最前面有跳過的部分，就是部長在5%這件事情有提到，核心國防的支出應該要超過3%，逐步增加，慢慢到5%，第一個，我們按照北約的計算方式，因為北約有核心跟非核心的支出，部長，目前來講，這個3%指的是核心的國防支出嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：關於3%的部分，現在是核心的國防支出。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果說我們今天逐步增加到5%，這個5%指的是核心跟非核心都算在內？還是指我們核心就要往5%邁進？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們會按北約的基準來……"],["沈委員伯洋：按北約的基準來做？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我這次在國防工業會議的時候……"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛的核心國防支出也是按北約的。"],["沈委員伯洋：也是按照北約嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們在問的時候，其實很多人都很關心這個問題，其實大家都知北約計算標準的細節，但是我現在比較擔心的事情就是下面這一個，即我們到底有沒有足夠的人力去評估或者去應對預算的增加？這個就有點像是我們有一陣子的財劃法的問題一樣，我們財劃法就是要把中央很多錢直接挖走到地方，但問題是地方的人力沒有增加，所以那個預算一下去之後，公務人員就有點傻住說，好，那你現在給我這筆預算，你跟我說要做什麼，但是我沒有做這些事情的人力，因為我們今天這個人力的配置……當然我們的編現是一個問題，就是指我們作戰的這個問題，但光是我們今天預算增加這件事情，它需要人力去支持、執行還有因應，所以人力這件事情，我們如果要逐步往上升的話，我們相關的……因為我們有作業維持費，我們有軍購的費用，我們有一般薪水的支出，我們有分這幾塊，我們有沒有去評估一下，在人力這邊，有沒有針對我們要往3%、5%方向邁進的同時，有足夠的人力去做因應？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會針對我們未來籌購的這些，不管是投資案也好、委製案也好、商購案也好，所增加的這些武器裝備還有後勤維保等等，我們三軍都要來做一個調整，所以我們會針對潛在的人力需求還有關於整個編制，我們都在做一個滾動式的檢討。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，因為時間的關係，謝謝部長，之後關於預算的部分，我可能也會針對這一個去看一下我們人力的編制到底有沒有到位，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}