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534.032, \"text\": \"那我剛才為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案是因為本席在115年年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案竟然有一點偷偷被加價了因為NYA2T的計畫\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 530.687, \"end\": 530.907, \"score\": 0.617}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 530.907, \"end\": 531.408, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 531.408, \"end\": 531.428, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 531.428, \"end\": 531.488, \"score\": 0.642}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 531.488, \"end\": 531.508, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 531.508, \"end\": 531.528, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 531.528, \"end\": 531.548, \"score\": 0.025}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 531.548, \"end\": 531.588, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 531.588, \"end\": 531.608, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 531.608, \"end\": 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\"所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算呢而且還有一個是入社魚叉飛彈的系統這個計畫的名稱是魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統這個預算也增加了36億元那這魚叉飛彈的預算增加的原因到底是什麼而且這兩個軍購案這樣其實加起來增加了總共有84億元\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 562.961, \"end\": 563.141, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 563.141, \"end\": 563.321, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 563.321, \"end\": 563.421, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 563.421, \"end\": 563.441, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 563.441, \"end\": 563.461, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 563.461, \"end\": 563.581, \"score\": 0.556}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 563.581, \"end\": 563.601, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 563.601, \"end\": 563.621, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 563.621, \"end\": 563.681, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 563.681, \"end\": 563.701, \"score\": 0.0}, 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565.862, \"score\": 0.549}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 565.862, \"end\": 565.882, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 565.882, \"end\": 565.962, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 565.962, \"end\": 566.102, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 566.102, \"end\": 566.182, \"score\": 0.547}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 566.182, \"end\": 566.202, \"score\": 0.243}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 566.202, \"end\": 566.222, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 566.222, \"end\": 566.302, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 566.302, \"end\": 566.362, \"score\": 0.434}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 566.362, \"end\": 566.382, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 566.382, \"end\": 566.502, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 566.502, 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{\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 672.873, \"end\": 673.053, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 673.053, \"end\": 673.093, \"score\": 0.419}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 673.093, \"end\": 673.133, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 673.133, \"end\": 673.293, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 673.293, \"end\": 673.313, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"K\", \"start\": 673.313, \"end\": 673.333, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 681.226, \"end\": 709.538, \"text\": \"那接下來我想請教一下部長另外一個問題就是輕型巡防艦原本按照原本的計畫是不是應該今年第三季交付第一艘的防空型而且在明年的第二季交付第二艘的反潛型是不是應該是這樣但是在115年的預算書上面看來交件的進度有點延宕了改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦是這樣嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 681.226, \"end\": 681.406, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 681.406, \"end\": 681.566, \"score\": 0.687}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 681.566, \"end\": 681.866, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 681.866, \"end\": 682.006, \"score\": 0.73}, 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\"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 713.385, \"end\": 740.48, \"text\": \"有關慶幸巡防艦的部分由於它的主機在這個主合約商的供貨的履約的能力上面它有一些這個落後所以目前它的主機會延到會在所以會在116年是 116年的一個兩艘會在116年會來完成這個交接那我想請問一下就是這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家是中科院還是中信造船\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 713.385, \"end\": 713.805, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"慶\"}, {\"word\": \"幸\", \"start\": 713.805, \"end\": 714.085, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"巡\", \"start\": 714.085, \"end\": 714.245, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 714.245, \"end\": 714.605, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"艦\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 714.605, \"end\": 714.705, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 714.705, \"end\": 714.865, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 714.865, \"end\": 715.786, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 715.786, \"end\": 715.906, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 715.906, \"end\": 715.966, \"score\": 0.647}, 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\"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 897.666, \"end\": 897.786, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 897.786, \"end\": 897.806, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,727 --> 00:00:04,612\n謝謝主席有請國安部顧部長請顧部長林委\n\n2\n00:00:13,359 --> 00:00:21,801\n部長長立法院在109年就通過了新式戰機的採購的特別預算那國防部也規劃在109年到115年循軍購的方式籌備了66架F16V的戰機還有相關的資源的系統和裝備經費整個是2472億那我想請問一下部長\n\n3\n00:00:36,004 --> 00:00:39,546\n這筆編列將近2500億的特別預算也就是對美國採購的66架的預算案眼看的明年應該就要執行完畢了但現在問題就是原本應該在112年就應該交機的結果一架都交不出來那現在都已經11月了\n\n4\n00:00:55,814 --> 00:01:08,940\n114年都要過完了竟然還是一架都沒有交機那整個騎乘一再的延宕又延宕那你們今天在報告中簡單的說延宕的原因是原規劃於115年權術非凡而且權力趕工那本席認為說115年要交付這66架應該是不太可能吧\n\n5\n00:01:16,443 --> 00:01:28,451\n所以到底國防部有沒有掌握美國方面的這方面的交付的進度呢因為每次只要是遇到F16V的交機的整個進度的延宕你們國防部都是很肯定的公開的說明而且還信誓旦旦的說明說每次在某一個時間點一定會開始交機那結果時間快到了又改口說要再繼續延宕那請問國防部目前對這一個新的交機的騎乘的規劃到底是什麼\n\n6\n00:01:47,243 --> 00:02:07,971\n跟委員報告我想我們有附戰機的生產線來做限地查核那洛馬公司現在就是以每日平日兩班至二十小時來加速戰機的生產那在線組裝的有總共同時有五十架的飛機那另外也有已經完成集體組裝的那現在要做一個測試的飛行\n\n7\n00:02:12,574 --> 00:02:22,131\n然後如果測試順利的話那就會來進行交機那如果測試順利之後後續的交機就會比較可以加速來進行\n\n8\n00:02:24,517 --> 00:02:28,481\n那國安部到底有沒有派人去了解美國工廠實際上面的產製的進度呢如果有的話有沒有覺得說為什麼會錯估每次都錯估這整個的交付進度還是你們只是口頭上的去詢問美方而已還是美方根本就是不同意也不准我們過去呢這方面可以說明一下嗎\n\n9\n00:02:47,120 --> 00:03:16,523\n跟委員報告這個從專案一開始我們的駐場人員就已經開始進駐那每個月都有在這個專案會議裡面做一個瞭解掌握進度那最新的進度跟委員報告就是剛剛陳如剛剛部長所報告的我們現在有50架飛機在南卡的這個格林威爾這個生產線而且這個整個生產線現在目前裡面只有我們國家的飛機所有的這個生產的飛機都是我有準備交給\n\n10\n00:03:16,963 --> 00:03:42,985\n我們國家的飛機那整個50架飛機有10架飛機在年底可以完成組裝那組裝完成之後就可以進行飛試飛試如果說順利的話那後面的進度就可以比較加快加速那這個整個工程的部分還是有一些系統上的整合的這個問題所以說我們一直沒辦法跟委員做一個明確的答覆因為後續還有很多的工項要進行那\n\n11\n00:03:44,206 --> 00:03:48,309\n整個生產線的部分大概是這樣跟委員做一個報告好那我再詢問另外一個也是採購延宕的案子就是鳳展裝案明明141架的F16AV飛機現在都已經全部升級了嘛升級F16的戰機了但是為什麼裝在飛機上面的AGM的154C的整個飛彈到現在都還沒有交付呢\n\n12\n00:04:09,201 --> 00:04:34,935\n而且據了解原本這個專案規劃的期間是101年到112年然後後來又把111年延到115年然後在115年再繼續展延到117年那我想請問一下就是這些飛彈到底要展延多少次還有到底要拖多久還有未來的交付的進度和期程究竟是怎麼規劃應該不是不能說的秘密吧\n\n13\n00:04:35,535 --> 00:05:02,491\n老師跟委員報告因為陳委員剛剛提到的這個是在奉展專案奉展專案是101年開始到112年那在這過程中我們在106年美方同意公售這一項武器因為這個大專案飛機系統提升裡面也包含了幾個武器系統跟次系統還有一些裝備那在106年他們同意公售之後我們在108年修的發價書就把這個工項先放上去但是放上去之後\n\n14\n00:05:03,611 --> 00:05:31,671\n這個美軍一直跟合約商不敢做一個完成預約因為我們的構型是最新構型在108年這個最新構型都還沒有做出來所以說當時只是戰況在110年那後面陸陸續續我們越來越明朗他們也對這個產線的整合也越來越清楚所以說目前最新的進度是從我們今天的報告裡面提到在116到117年能夠完成這個整個彈的交付\n\n15\n00:05:33,021 --> 00:05:51,448\n所以像現在有那麼多的軍購案都是跟美國採購的然後川普都不斷的施壓要我們台灣都一直增加國防的軍費支出甚至到GDP的10%那我們要怎麼相信美國啊因為我們等不到武器啊又等不到零件啊那我們這樣的合作不是都變冤大頭了嗎所以我在想說還有未來國防部可能有一\n\n16\n00:05:56,410 --> 00:06:03,077\n2.3兆的國防特別預算這一筆特別預算還涉及到許多軍事的採購的經費而且這是非常龐大的特別預算而且據這個了解這很多都是美國的採購裝備啊但是如果國防部一直都沒有辦法\n\n17\n00:06:12,105 --> 00:06:16,529\n而且都是這樣就是一直在這些延宕的情況下這樣又沒有辦法把這個交付期程可以規劃得很好的話這樣我們的立法院怎麼相信你們的執行能力呢而且怎麼樣可以通過你們編列的預算呢我想全台灣的人民應該都沒有辦法接受這樣吧所以我還是想說\n\n18\n00:06:34,722 --> 00:06:50,452\n既然我們現在很多情況是沒有辦法馬上做到國防自主但是至少我們是買方也應該要有採購自主的權利所以請國防部要加油一定要透過多元的管道積極督促美方的履約這樣可以做得到嗎\n\n19\n00:06:51,472 --> 00:07:14,642\n跟委員報告我想剛我們在報告裡面提到大概說主要的武器裝備我們大約有25個案子事實上很多的武器裝備都已經交運完畢或者是在交運中包括托斯2B標槍飛彈海馬4還有最近成軍的M1A2等等的所以並不是說我們跟美方的這些軍購案好像它全部都在延宕\n\n20\n00:07:15,982 --> 00:07:40,066\n延宕是我們不願意看到的但是對於這個相關的這些軍購案來講也是很有很多部分主要的武器裝備都是有如期的交運或者是交運完畢的狀況所以我想我們跟美方會對這個案子包括這個大家關切F16B會我們不斷的來增進這個\n\n21\n00:07:47,510 --> 00:08:01,065\n產運交制的一個速度我想美方也很有誠意特別有專案小組來督促我們也會跟他定期來做一個檢討我們當然很希望F-16B的飛機趕快的測試完畢之後來進行交付\n\n22\n00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:19,165\n好那剛才部長有提到就是那個M1A2T的戰車的情況所以我們在10月31號那一天有一個成軍典禮嘛那我現在想要請問一下說目前交付的80輛都應該到貨了對不對包委員是的\n\n23\n00:08:24,059 --> 00:08:49,182\n那同樣對美國採購100套的陸射魚叉飛彈系統這個是不是也在有案期程中在交付呢包委員我們第一批的4輛發射車跟雷達車已經在今年7月份到8月份已經交運了那前面因為COVID-19耽誤的這個進度目前我們也逐漸在趕上來我們持續的督促美方安援機關針對魚叉飛彈這個案子去加速\n\n24\n00:08:50,687 --> 00:08:54,032\n那我剛才為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案是因為本席在115年年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案竟然有一點偷偷被加價了因為NYA2T的計畫\n\n25\n00:09:06,249 --> 00:09:07,470\n名稱是新型戰車採購案為什麼115年度跟114年度的預算書來比起來預算上漲整整48億元而且總計有108輛的戰車都已經到達已經到了80輛\n\n26\n00:09:22,961 --> 00:09:26,642\n所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算呢而且還有一個是入社魚叉飛彈的系統這個計畫的名稱是魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統這個預算也增加了36億元那這魚叉飛彈的預算增加的原因到底是什麼而且這兩個軍購案這樣其實加起來增加了總共有84億元\n\n27\n00:09:47,827 --> 00:10:01,838\n但你們的預算書說明裡面卻沒有非常說明為什麼要增加這些預算但想說如果沒有被發現或許84億你們就這樣模糊過關了我想說你們可能要說明一下為什麼光這兩筆採購案的預算就增加了84億元呢\n\n28\n00:10:07,779 --> 00:10:25,736\n包委員我就陸軍的48億我先檢要的報告這個屆時在大院預算審議的時候我們會先向各委員辦公室去逐步的說明那後面甚至也會在召委的規劃之下可能會來安排一個專報\n\n29\n00:10:26,597 --> 00:10:41,541\n那我先簡單的說這個是在初始整個我們預算編列的時候就跟美國的發價書上面有預算不足的情形那當初我們也是一直持續的在認為有溢價的空間那在這個過程當中後面到了最終到了第五版的發價書已經沒有下修的空間那我們也啟動了相關的整規書和相關的補足這個預算的需求\n\n30\n00:10:55,604 --> 00:11:13,333\n先做一個解藥的報告所以我想這48億元我覺得還是認為國防部有必要向本委員會提供相關的採購的清單因為突然在這兩年就馬上最後兩年突然多了48億那當然我們會想要知道到底採購了些什麼是可以嗎報告可以是OK\n\n31\n00:11:21,226 --> 00:11:49,538\n那接下來我想請教一下部長另外一個問題就是輕型巡防艦原本按照原本的計畫是不是應該今年第三季交付第一艘的防空型而且在明年的第二季交付第二艘的反潛型是不是應該是這樣但是在115年的預算書上面看來交件的進度有點延宕了改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦是這樣嗎\n\n32\n00:11:53,385 --> 00:12:20,480\n有關慶幸巡防艦的部分由於它的主機在這個主合約商的供貨的履約的能力上面它有一些這個落後所以目前它的主機會延到會在所以會在116年是116年的一個兩艘會在116年會來完成這個交接那我想請問一下就是這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家是中科院還是中信造船\n\n33\n00:12:21,241 --> 00:12:40,877\n這個的主業商是中信是中信造船嘛是那主機的部分是國外的廠商所以這個案子是海軍直接跟中信造船簽約的嘛是這樣嗎是所以我比較在意的是那罰款最後因為他已經就是延宕了嘛這個罰款整個到最後是不是直接回到國庫呢\n\n34\n00:12:43,854 --> 00:12:46,037\n就是你海軍是不是對中信造船採訪採訪之後這一筆費用是不是會回到國庫呢是的那我也就覺得奇怪了為什麼我上一次10月23在國防部業務報告中有說到就是說漢祥公司針對永英高校機\n\n35\n00:13:02,496 --> 00:13:25,409\n這個整個交機的延宕的罰款的問題我說就全部都進入中科院的營運基金的小金庫但是中科院院長有說那天有說是三成留在中科院七成全部繳回國庫但是實際上漢翔付給中科院的罰款全部都是進到中科院的\n\n36\n00:13:25,589 --> 00:13:28,990\n營運基金嘛竟然還可以列入當年度的會計的總收入甚至還拿去繳稅了這樣怎麼會合理呢你們覺得這樣合理嗎因為這個是不是太荒謬了呢這些罰款本來就是應該要交給國家的錢怎麼會被中科院全部拿去付其他的支出呢\n\n37\n00:13:46,957 --> 00:13:50,761\n甚至拿來繳稅了那部長你覺得這樣中科院把這個罰款這樣使用是合理的嗎那中科院不是穩賺不賠的法人單位嗎那這樣是不是不合理的機制呢那部長是不是要請國防部要好好重新調整整個制度還是有什麼樣的想法\n\n38\n00:14:07,267 --> 00:14:33,816\n委員當時在那個空軍委制我們我們跟漢祥簽約的時候因為我們是合約的甲方漢祥是合約的乙方所以說漢祥現在罰金繳給我們以後我們再先列入我們本院的收入再依照相關的稅制去繳回國庫但是上次質詢的時候我也跟委員講說其實這樣子的方式是由他檢討的必要性的所以未來再有類似的委制案的時候我們也會去改變一下這樣的制度\n\n39\n00:14:34,116 --> 00:14:57,806\n因為我覺得這個還是要檢討啦因為出錢的是國防部嘛現在全部的罰金都是到了你們的營運基金結果是你們整個加減掉總支出之後的年度剩餘之後還要繳20%的營業所得稅之後才繳回國庫我覺得這個是比較不合理的機制所以我想國防部針對這個事情可能要處理一下是謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1727\t4612\t謝謝主席 有請國安部顧部長請顧部長林委\n13359\t21801\t部長長 立法院在109年就通過了新式戰機的採購的特別預算那國防部也規劃在109年到115年循軍購的方式籌備了66架F16V的戰機還有相關的資源的系統和裝備經費整個是2472億那我想請問一下部長\n36004\t39546\t這筆編列將近2500億的特別預算也就是對美國採購的66架的預算案眼看的明年應該就要執行完畢了但現在問題就是原本應該在112年就應該交機的結果一架都交不出來那現在都已經11月了\n55814\t68940\t114年都要過完了竟然還是一架都沒有交機那整個騎乘一再的延宕又延宕那你們今天在報告中簡單的說延宕的原因是原規劃於115年權術非凡而且權力趕工那本席認為說115年要交付這66架應該是不太可能吧\n76443\t88451\t所以到底國防部有沒有掌握美國方面的這方面的交付的進度呢因為每次只要是遇到F16V的交機的整個進度的延宕你們國防部都是很肯定的公開的說明而且還信誓旦旦的說明說每次在某一個時間點一定會開始交機那結果時間快到了又改口說要再繼續延宕那請問國防部目前對這一個新的交機的騎乘的規劃到底是什麼\n107243\t127971\t跟委員報告 我想我們有附戰機的生產線來做限地查核那洛馬公司現在就是以每日平日兩班至二十小時來加速戰機的生產那在線組裝的有總共同時有五十架的飛機那另外也有已經完成集體組裝的那現在要做一個測試的飛行\n132574\t142131\t然後如果測試順利的話 那就會來進行交機那如果測試順利之後 後續的交機就會比較可以加速來進行\n144517\t148481\t那國安部到底有沒有派人去了解美國工廠實際上面的產製的進度呢如果有的話有沒有覺得說為什麼會錯估每次都錯估這整個的交付進度還是你們只是口頭上的去詢問美方而已還是美方根本就是不同意也不准我們過去呢這方面可以說明一下嗎\n167120\t196523\t跟委員報告這個從專案一開始我們的駐場人員就已經開始進駐那每個月都有在這個專案會議裡面做一個瞭解掌握進度那最新的進度跟委員報告就是剛剛陳如剛剛部長所報告的我們現在有50架飛機在南卡的這個格林威爾這個生產線而且這個整個生產線現在目前裡面只有我們國家的飛機所有的這個生產的飛機都是我有準備交給\n196963\t222985\t我們國家的飛機那整個50架飛機有10架飛機在年底可以完成組裝那組裝完成之後就可以進行飛試飛試如果說順利的話那後面的進度就可以比較加快加速那這個整個工程的部分還是有一些系統上的整合的這個問題所以說我們一直沒辦法跟委員做一個明確的答覆因為後續還有很多的工項要進行那\n224206\t228309\t整個生產線的部分大概是這樣跟委員做一個報告好那我再詢問另外一個也是採購延宕的案子就是鳳展裝案明明141架的F16AV飛機現在都已經全部升級了嘛升級F16的戰機了但是為什麼裝在飛機上面的AGM的154C的整個飛彈到現在都還沒有交付呢\n249201\t274935\t而且據了解原本這個專案規劃的期間是101年到112年然後後來又把111年延到115年然後在115年再繼續展延到117年那我想請問一下就是這些飛彈到底要展延多少次還有到底要拖多久還有未來的交付的進度和期程究竟是怎麼規劃應該不是不能說的秘密吧\n275535\t302491\t老師跟委員報告因為陳委員剛剛提到的這個是在奉展專案奉展專案是101年開始到112年那在這過程中我們在106年美方同意公售這一項武器因為這個大專案飛機系統提升裡面也包含了幾個武器系統跟次系統還有一些裝備那在106年他們同意公售之後我們在108年修的發價書就把這個工項先放上去但是放上去之後\n303611\t331671\t這個美軍一直跟合約商不敢做一個完成預約因為我們的構型是最新構型在108年這個最新構型都還沒有做出來所以說當時只是戰況在110年那後面陸陸續續我們越來越明朗他們也對這個產線的整合也越來越清楚所以說目前最新的進度是從我們今天的報告裡面提到在116到117年能夠完成這個整個彈的交付\n333021\t351448\t所以像現在有那麼多的軍購案都是跟美國採購的然後川普都不斷的施壓要我們台灣都一直增加國防的軍費支出甚至到GDP的10%那我們要怎麼相信美國啊因為我們等不到武器啊又等不到零件啊那我們這樣的合作不是都變冤大頭了嗎所以我在想說還有未來國防部可能有一\n356410\t363077\t2.3兆的國防特別預算這一筆特別預算還涉及到許多軍事的採購的經費而且這是非常龐大的特別預算而且據這個了解這很多都是美國的採購裝備啊但是如果國防部一直都沒有辦法\n372105\t376529\t而且都是這樣就是一直在這些延宕的情況下這樣又沒有辦法把這個交付期程可以規劃得很好的話這樣我們的立法院怎麼相信你們的執行能力呢而且怎麼樣可以通過你們編列的預算呢我想全台灣的人民應該都沒有辦法接受這樣吧所以我還是想說\n394722\t410452\t既然我們現在很多情況是沒有辦法馬上做到國防自主但是至少我們是買方也應該要有採購自主的權利所以請國防部要加油一定要透過多元的管道積極督促美方的履約這樣可以做得到嗎\n411472\t434642\t跟委員報告 我想剛我們在報告裡面提到大概說主要的武器裝備我們大約有25個案子事實上很多的武器裝備都已經交運完畢或者是在交運中包括托斯2B 標槍飛彈 海馬4還有最近成軍的M1A2等等的所以並不是說我們跟美方的這些軍購案好像它全部都在延宕\n435982\t460066\t延宕是我們不願意看到的但是對於這個相關的這些軍購案來講也是很有很多部分主要的武器裝備都是有如期的交運或者是交運完畢的狀況所以我想我們跟美方會對這個案子包括這個大家關切F16B會我們不斷的來增進這個\n467510\t481065\t產運交制的一個速度我想美方也很有誠意特別有專案小組來督促我們也會跟他定期來做一個檢討我們當然很希望F-16B的飛機趕快的測試完畢之後來進行交付\n485796\t499165\t好那剛才部長有提到就是那個M1A2T的戰車的情況所以我們在10月31號那一天有一個成軍典禮嘛那我現在想要請問一下說目前交付的80輛都應該到貨了對不對包委員是的\n504059\t529182\t那同樣對美國採購100套的陸射魚叉飛彈系統這個是不是也在有案期程中在交付呢包委員我們第一批的4輛發射車跟雷達車已經在今年7月份到8月份已經交運了那前面因為COVID-19耽誤的這個進度目前我們也逐漸在趕上來我們持續的督促美方安援機關針對魚叉飛彈這個案子去加速\n530687\t534032\t那我剛才為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案是因為本席在115年年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案竟然有一點偷偷被加價了因為NYA2T的計畫\n546249\t547470\t名稱是新型戰車採購案為什麼115年度跟114年度的預算書來比起來預算上漲整整48億元而且總計有108輛的戰車都已經到達已經到了80輛\n562961\t566642\t所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算呢而且還有一個是入社魚叉飛彈的系統這個計畫的名稱是魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統這個預算也增加了36億元那這魚叉飛彈的預算增加的原因到底是什麼而且這兩個軍購案這樣其實加起來增加了總共有84億元\n587827\t601838\t但你們的預算書說明裡面卻沒有非常說明為什麼要增加這些預算但想說如果沒有被發現或許84億你們就這樣模糊過關了我想說你們可能要說明一下為什麼光這兩筆採購案的預算就增加了84億元呢\n607779\t625736\t包委員我就陸軍的48億我先檢要的報告這個屆時在大院預算審議的時候我們會先向各委員辦公室去逐步的說明那後面甚至也會在召委的規劃之下可能會來安排一個專報\n626597\t641541\t那我先簡單的說這個是在初始整個我們預算編列的時候就跟美國的發價書上面有預算不足的情形那當初我們也是一直持續的在認為有溢價的空間那在這個過程當中後面到了最終到了第五版的發價書已經沒有下修的空間那我們也啟動了相關的整規書和相關的補足這個預算的需求\n655604\t673333\t先做一個解藥的報告所以我想這48億元我覺得還是認為國防部有必要向本委員會提供相關的採購的清單因為突然在這兩年就馬上最後兩年突然多了48億那當然我們會想要知道到底採購了些什麼是可以嗎報告可以是OK\n681226\t709538\t那接下來我想請教一下部長另外一個問題就是輕型巡防艦原本按照原本的計畫是不是應該今年第三季交付第一艘的防空型而且在明年的第二季交付第二艘的反潛型是不是應該是這樣但是在115年的預算書上面看來交件的進度有點延宕了改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦是這樣嗎\n713385\t740480\t有關慶幸巡防艦的部分由於它的主機在這個主合約商的供貨的履約的能力上面它有一些這個落後所以目前它的主機會延到會在所以會在116年是 116年的一個兩艘會在116年會來完成這個交接那我想請問一下就是這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家是中科院還是中信造船\n741241\t760877\t這個的主業商是中信是中信造船嘛是那主機的部分是國外的廠商所以這個案子是海軍直接跟中信造船簽約的嘛是這樣嗎是所以我比較在意的是那罰款最後因為他已經就是延宕了嘛這個罰款整個到最後是不是直接回到國庫呢\n763854\t766037\t就是你海軍是不是對中信造船採訪採訪之後這一筆費用是不是會回到國庫呢是的那我也就覺得奇怪了為什麼我上一次10月23在國防部業務報告中有說到就是說漢祥公司針對永英高校機\n782496\t805409\t這個整個交機的延宕的罰款的問題我說就全部都進入中科院的營運基金的小金庫但是中科院院長有說那天有說是三成留在中科院七成全部繳回國庫但是實際上漢翔付給中科院的罰款全部都是進到中科院的\n805589\t808990\t營運基金嘛竟然還可以列入當年度的會計的總收入甚至還拿去繳稅了這樣怎麼會合理呢你們覺得這樣合理嗎因為這個是不是太荒謬了呢這些罰款本來就是應該要交給國家的錢怎麼會被中科院全部拿去付其他的支出呢\n826957\t830761\t甚至拿來繳稅了那部長你覺得這樣中科院把這個罰款這樣使用是合理的嗎那中科院不是穩賺不賠的法人單位嗎那這樣是不是不合理的機制呢那部長是不是要請國防部要好好重新調整整個制度還是有什麼樣的想法\n847267\t873816\t委員當時在那個空軍委制我們我們跟漢祥簽約的時候因為我們是合約的甲方漢祥是合約的乙方所以說漢祥現在罰金繳給我們以後我們再先列入我們本院的收入再依照相關的稅制去繳回國庫但是上次質詢的時候我也跟委員講說其實這樣子的方式是由他檢討的必要性的所以未來再有類似的委制案的時候我們也會去改變一下這樣的制度\n874116\t897806\t因為我覺得這個還是要檢討啦因為出錢的是國防部嘛現在全部的罰金都是到了你們的營運基金結果是你們整個加減掉總支出之後的年度剩餘之後還要繳20%的營業所得稅之後才繳回國庫我覺得這個是比較不合理的機制所以我想國防部針對這個事情可能要處理一下是謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請國安部顧部長請顧部長林委\n部長長 立法院在109年就通過了新式戰機的採購的特別預算那國防部也規劃在109年到115年循軍購的方式籌備了66架F16V的戰機還有相關的資源的系統和裝備經費整個是2472億那我想請問一下部長\n這筆編列將近2500億的特別預算也就是對美國採購的66架的預算案眼看的明年應該就要執行完畢了但現在問題就是原本應該在112年就應該交機的結果一架都交不出來那現在都已經11月了\n114年都要過完了竟然還是一架都沒有交機那整個騎乘一再的延宕又延宕那你們今天在報告中簡單的說延宕的原因是原規劃於115年權術非凡而且權力趕工那本席認為說115年要交付這66架應該是不太可能吧\n所以到底國防部有沒有掌握美國方面的這方面的交付的進度呢因為每次只要是遇到F16V的交機的整個進度的延宕你們國防部都是很肯定的公開的說明而且還信誓旦旦的說明說每次在某一個時間點一定會開始交機那結果時間快到了又改口說要再繼續延宕那請問國防部目前對這一個新的交機的騎乘的規劃到底是什麼\n跟委員報告 我想我們有附戰機的生產線來做限地查核那洛馬公司現在就是以每日平日兩班至二十小時來加速戰機的生產那在線組裝的有總共同時有五十架的飛機那另外也有已經完成集體組裝的那現在要做一個測試的飛行\n然後如果測試順利的話 那就會來進行交機那如果測試順利之後 後續的交機就會比較可以加速來進行\n那國安部到底有沒有派人去了解美國工廠實際上面的產製的進度呢如果有的話有沒有覺得說為什麼會錯估每次都錯估這整個的交付進度還是你們只是口頭上的去詢問美方而已還是美方根本就是不同意也不准我們過去呢這方面可以說明一下嗎\n跟委員報告這個從專案一開始我們的駐場人員就已經開始進駐那每個月都有在這個專案會議裡面做一個瞭解掌握進度那最新的進度跟委員報告就是剛剛陳如剛剛部長所報告的我們現在有50架飛機在南卡的這個格林威爾這個生產線而且這個整個生產線現在目前裡面只有我們國家的飛機所有的這個生產的飛機都是我有準備交給\n我們國家的飛機那整個50架飛機有10架飛機在年底可以完成組裝那組裝完成之後就可以進行飛試飛試如果說順利的話那後面的進度就可以比較加快加速那這個整個工程的部分還是有一些系統上的整合的這個問題所以說我們一直沒辦法跟委員做一個明確的答覆因為後續還有很多的工項要進行那\n整個生產線的部分大概是這樣跟委員做一個報告好那我再詢問另外一個也是採購延宕的案子就是鳳展裝案明明141架的F16AV飛機現在都已經全部升級了嘛升級F16的戰機了但是為什麼裝在飛機上面的AGM的154C的整個飛彈到現在都還沒有交付呢\n而且據了解原本這個專案規劃的期間是101年到112年然後後來又把111年延到115年然後在115年再繼續展延到117年那我想請問一下就是這些飛彈到底要展延多少次還有到底要拖多久還有未來的交付的進度和期程究竟是怎麼規劃應該不是不能說的秘密吧\n老師跟委員報告因為陳委員剛剛提到的這個是在奉展專案奉展專案是101年開始到112年那在這過程中我們在106年美方同意公售這一項武器因為這個大專案飛機系統提升裡面也包含了幾個武器系統跟次系統還有一些裝備那在106年他們同意公售之後我們在108年修的發價書就把這個工項先放上去但是放上去之後\n這個美軍一直跟合約商不敢做一個完成預約因為我們的構型是最新構型在108年這個最新構型都還沒有做出來所以說當時只是戰況在110年那後面陸陸續續我們越來越明朗他們也對這個產線的整合也越來越清楚所以說目前最新的進度是從我們今天的報告裡面提到在116到117年能夠完成這個整個彈的交付\n所以像現在有那麼多的軍購案都是跟美國採購的然後川普都不斷的施壓要我們台灣都一直增加國防的軍費支出甚至到GDP的10%那我們要怎麼相信美國啊因為我們等不到武器啊又等不到零件啊那我們這樣的合作不是都變冤大頭了嗎所以我在想說還有未來國防部可能有一\n2.3兆的國防特別預算這一筆特別預算還涉及到許多軍事的採購的經費而且這是非常龐大的特別預算而且據這個了解這很多都是美國的採購裝備啊但是如果國防部一直都沒有辦法\n而且都是這樣就是一直在這些延宕的情況下這樣又沒有辦法把這個交付期程可以規劃得很好的話這樣我們的立法院怎麼相信你們的執行能力呢而且怎麼樣可以通過你們編列的預算呢我想全台灣的人民應該都沒有辦法接受這樣吧所以我還是想說\n既然我們現在很多情況是沒有辦法馬上做到國防自主但是至少我們是買方也應該要有採購自主的權利所以請國防部要加油一定要透過多元的管道積極督促美方的履約這樣可以做得到嗎\n跟委員報告 我想剛我們在報告裡面提到大概說主要的武器裝備我們大約有25個案子事實上很多的武器裝備都已經交運完畢或者是在交運中包括托斯2B 標槍飛彈 海馬4還有最近成軍的M1A2等等的所以並不是說我們跟美方的這些軍購案好像它全部都在延宕\n延宕是我們不願意看到的但是對於這個相關的這些軍購案來講也是很有很多部分主要的武器裝備都是有如期的交運或者是交運完畢的狀況所以我想我們跟美方會對這個案子包括這個大家關切F16B會我們不斷的來增進這個\n產運交制的一個速度我想美方也很有誠意特別有專案小組來督促我們也會跟他定期來做一個檢討我們當然很希望F-16B的飛機趕快的測試完畢之後來進行交付\n好那剛才部長有提到就是那個M1A2T的戰車的情況所以我們在10月31號那一天有一個成軍典禮嘛那我現在想要請問一下說目前交付的80輛都應該到貨了對不對包委員是的\n那同樣對美國採購100套的陸射魚叉飛彈系統這個是不是也在有案期程中在交付呢包委員我們第一批的4輛發射車跟雷達車已經在今年7月份到8月份已經交運了那前面因為COVID-19耽誤的這個進度目前我們也逐漸在趕上來我們持續的督促美方安援機關針對魚叉飛彈這個案子去加速\n那我剛才為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案是因為本席在115年年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案竟然有一點偷偷被加價了因為NYA2T的計畫\n名稱是新型戰車採購案為什麼115年度跟114年度的預算書來比起來預算上漲整整48億元而且總計有108輛的戰車都已經到達已經到了80輛\n所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算呢而且還有一個是入社魚叉飛彈的系統這個計畫的名稱是魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統這個預算也增加了36億元那這魚叉飛彈的預算增加的原因到底是什麼而且這兩個軍購案這樣其實加起來增加了總共有84億元\n但你們的預算書說明裡面卻沒有非常說明為什麼要增加這些預算但想說如果沒有被發現或許84億你們就這樣模糊過關了我想說你們可能要說明一下為什麼光這兩筆採購案的預算就增加了84億元呢\n包委員我就陸軍的48億我先檢要的報告這個屆時在大院預算審議的時候我們會先向各委員辦公室去逐步的說明那後面甚至也會在召委的規劃之下可能會來安排一個專報\n那我先簡單的說這個是在初始整個我們預算編列的時候就跟美國的發價書上面有預算不足的情形那當初我們也是一直持續的在認為有溢價的空間那在這個過程當中後面到了最終到了第五版的發價書已經沒有下修的空間那我們也啟動了相關的整規書和相關的補足這個預算的需求\n先做一個解藥的報告所以我想這48億元我覺得還是認為國防部有必要向本委員會提供相關的採購的清單因為突然在這兩年就馬上最後兩年突然多了48億那當然我們會想要知道到底採購了些什麼是可以嗎報告可以是OK\n那接下來我想請教一下部長另外一個問題就是輕型巡防艦原本按照原本的計畫是不是應該今年第三季交付第一艘的防空型而且在明年的第二季交付第二艘的反潛型是不是應該是這樣但是在115年的預算書上面看來交件的進度有點延宕了改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦是這樣嗎\n有關慶幸巡防艦的部分由於它的主機在這個主合約商的供貨的履約的能力上面它有一些這個落後所以目前它的主機會延到會在所以會在116年是 116年的一個兩艘會在116年會來完成這個交接那我想請問一下就是這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家是中科院還是中信造船\n這個的主業商是中信是中信造船嘛是那主機的部分是國外的廠商所以這個案子是海軍直接跟中信造船簽約的嘛是這樣嗎是所以我比較在意的是那罰款最後因為他已經就是延宕了嘛這個罰款整個到最後是不是直接回到國庫呢\n就是你海軍是不是對中信造船採訪採訪之後這一筆費用是不是會回到國庫呢是的那我也就覺得奇怪了為什麼我上一次10月23在國防部業務報告中有說到就是說漢祥公司針對永英高校機\n這個整個交機的延宕的罰款的問題我說就全部都進入中科院的營運基金的小金庫但是中科院院長有說那天有說是三成留在中科院七成全部繳回國庫但是實際上漢翔付給中科院的罰款全部都是進到中科院的\n營運基金嘛竟然還可以列入當年度的會計的總收入甚至還拿去繳稅了這樣怎麼會合理呢你們覺得這樣合理嗎因為這個是不是太荒謬了呢這些罰款本來就是應該要交給國家的錢怎麼會被中科院全部拿去付其他的支出呢\n甚至拿來繳稅了那部長你覺得這樣中科院把這個罰款這樣使用是合理的嗎那中科院不是穩賺不賠的法人單位嗎那這樣是不是不合理的機制呢那部長是不是要請國防部要好好重新調整整個制度還是有什麼樣的想法\n委員當時在那個空軍委制我們我們跟漢祥簽約的時候因為我們是合約的甲方漢祥是合約的乙方所以說漢祥現在罰金繳給我們以後我們再先列入我們本院的收入再依照相關的稅制去繳回國庫但是上次質詢的時候我也跟委員講說其實這樣子的方式是由他檢討的必要性的所以未來再有類似的委制案的時候我們也會去改變一下這樣的制度\n因為我覺得這個還是要檢討啦因為出錢的是國防部嘛現在全部的罰金都是到了你們的營運基金結果是你們整個加減掉總支出之後的年度剩餘之後還要繳20%的營業所得稅之後才繳回國庫我覺得這個是比較不合理的機制所以我想國防部針對這個事情可能要處理一下是謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.727 --> 00:04.612\n謝謝主席有請國安部顧部長請顧部長林委\n\n00:13.359 --> 00:21.801\n部長長立法院在109年就通過了新式戰機的採購的特別預算那國防部也規劃在109年到115年循軍購的方式籌備了66架F16V的戰機還有相關的資源的系統和裝備經費整個是2472億那我想請問一下部長\n\n00:36.004 --> 00:39.546\n這筆編列將近2500億的特別預算也就是對美國採購的66架的預算案眼看的明年應該就要執行完畢了但現在問題就是原本應該在112年就應該交機的結果一架都交不出來那現在都已經11月了\n\n00:55.814 --> 01:08.940\n114年都要過完了竟然還是一架都沒有交機那整個騎乘一再的延宕又延宕那你們今天在報告中簡單的說延宕的原因是原規劃於115年權術非凡而且權力趕工那本席認為說115年要交付這66架應該是不太可能吧\n\n01:16.443 --> 01:28.451\n所以到底國防部有沒有掌握美國方面的這方面的交付的進度呢因為每次只要是遇到F16V的交機的整個進度的延宕你們國防部都是很肯定的公開的說明而且還信誓旦旦的說明說每次在某一個時間點一定會開始交機那結果時間快到了又改口說要再繼續延宕那請問國防部目前對這一個新的交機的騎乘的規劃到底是什麼\n\n01:47.243 --> 02:07.971\n跟委員報告我想我們有附戰機的生產線來做限地查核那洛馬公司現在就是以每日平日兩班至二十小時來加速戰機的生產那在線組裝的有總共同時有五十架的飛機那另外也有已經完成集體組裝的那現在要做一個測試的飛行\n\n02:12.574 --> 02:22.131\n然後如果測試順利的話那就會來進行交機那如果測試順利之後後續的交機就會比較可以加速來進行\n\n02:24.517 --> 02:28.481\n那國安部到底有沒有派人去了解美國工廠實際上面的產製的進度呢如果有的話有沒有覺得說為什麼會錯估每次都錯估這整個的交付進度還是你們只是口頭上的去詢問美方而已還是美方根本就是不同意也不准我們過去呢這方面可以說明一下嗎\n\n02:47.120 --> 03:16.523\n跟委員報告這個從專案一開始我們的駐場人員就已經開始進駐那每個月都有在這個專案會議裡面做一個瞭解掌握進度那最新的進度跟委員報告就是剛剛陳如剛剛部長所報告的我們現在有50架飛機在南卡的這個格林威爾這個生產線而且這個整個生產線現在目前裡面只有我們國家的飛機所有的這個生產的飛機都是我有準備交給\n\n03:16.963 --> 03:42.985\n我們國家的飛機那整個50架飛機有10架飛機在年底可以完成組裝那組裝完成之後就可以進行飛試飛試如果說順利的話那後面的進度就可以比較加快加速那這個整個工程的部分還是有一些系統上的整合的這個問題所以說我們一直沒辦法跟委員做一個明確的答覆因為後續還有很多的工項要進行那\n\n03:44.206 --> 03:48.309\n整個生產線的部分大概是這樣跟委員做一個報告好那我再詢問另外一個也是採購延宕的案子就是鳳展裝案明明141架的F16AV飛機現在都已經全部升級了嘛升級F16的戰機了但是為什麼裝在飛機上面的AGM的154C的整個飛彈到現在都還沒有交付呢\n\n04:09.201 --> 04:34.935\n而且據了解原本這個專案規劃的期間是101年到112年然後後來又把111年延到115年然後在115年再繼續展延到117年那我想請問一下就是這些飛彈到底要展延多少次還有到底要拖多久還有未來的交付的進度和期程究竟是怎麼規劃應該不是不能說的秘密吧\n\n04:35.535 --> 05:02.491\n老師跟委員報告因為陳委員剛剛提到的這個是在奉展專案奉展專案是101年開始到112年那在這過程中我們在106年美方同意公售這一項武器因為這個大專案飛機系統提升裡面也包含了幾個武器系統跟次系統還有一些裝備那在106年他們同意公售之後我們在108年修的發價書就把這個工項先放上去但是放上去之後\n\n05:03.611 --> 05:31.671\n這個美軍一直跟合約商不敢做一個完成預約因為我們的構型是最新構型在108年這個最新構型都還沒有做出來所以說當時只是戰況在110年那後面陸陸續續我們越來越明朗他們也對這個產線的整合也越來越清楚所以說目前最新的進度是從我們今天的報告裡面提到在116到117年能夠完成這個整個彈的交付\n\n05:33.021 --> 05:51.448\n所以像現在有那麼多的軍購案都是跟美國採購的然後川普都不斷的施壓要我們台灣都一直增加國防的軍費支出甚至到GDP的10%那我們要怎麼相信美國啊因為我們等不到武器啊又等不到零件啊那我們這樣的合作不是都變冤大頭了嗎所以我在想說還有未來國防部可能有一\n\n05:56.410 --> 06:03.077\n2.3兆的國防特別預算這一筆特別預算還涉及到許多軍事的採購的經費而且這是非常龐大的特別預算而且據這個了解這很多都是美國的採購裝備啊但是如果國防部一直都沒有辦法\n\n06:12.105 --> 06:16.529\n而且都是這樣就是一直在這些延宕的情況下這樣又沒有辦法把這個交付期程可以規劃得很好的話這樣我們的立法院怎麼相信你們的執行能力呢而且怎麼樣可以通過你們編列的預算呢我想全台灣的人民應該都沒有辦法接受這樣吧所以我還是想說\n\n06:34.722 --> 06:50.452\n既然我們現在很多情況是沒有辦法馬上做到國防自主但是至少我們是買方也應該要有採購自主的權利所以請國防部要加油一定要透過多元的管道積極督促美方的履約這樣可以做得到嗎\n\n06:51.472 --> 07:14.642\n跟委員報告我想剛我們在報告裡面提到大概說主要的武器裝備我們大約有25個案子事實上很多的武器裝備都已經交運完畢或者是在交運中包括托斯2B標槍飛彈海馬4還有最近成軍的M1A2等等的所以並不是說我們跟美方的這些軍購案好像它全部都在延宕\n\n07:15.982 --> 07:40.066\n延宕是我們不願意看到的但是對於這個相關的這些軍購案來講也是很有很多部分主要的武器裝備都是有如期的交運或者是交運完畢的狀況所以我想我們跟美方會對這個案子包括這個大家關切F16B會我們不斷的來增進這個\n\n07:47.510 --> 08:01.065\n產運交制的一個速度我想美方也很有誠意特別有專案小組來督促我們也會跟他定期來做一個檢討我們當然很希望F-16B的飛機趕快的測試完畢之後來進行交付\n\n08:05.796 --> 08:19.165\n好那剛才部長有提到就是那個M1A2T的戰車的情況所以我們在10月31號那一天有一個成軍典禮嘛那我現在想要請問一下說目前交付的80輛都應該到貨了對不對包委員是的\n\n08:24.059 --> 08:49.182\n那同樣對美國採購100套的陸射魚叉飛彈系統這個是不是也在有案期程中在交付呢包委員我們第一批的4輛發射車跟雷達車已經在今年7月份到8月份已經交運了那前面因為COVID-19耽誤的這個進度目前我們也逐漸在趕上來我們持續的督促美方安援機關針對魚叉飛彈這個案子去加速\n\n08:50.687 --> 08:54.032\n那我剛才為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案是因為本席在115年年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案竟然有一點偷偷被加價了因為NYA2T的計畫\n\n09:06.249 --> 09:07.470\n名稱是新型戰車採購案為什麼115年度跟114年度的預算書來比起來預算上漲整整48億元而且總計有108輛的戰車都已經到達已經到了80輛\n\n09:22.961 --> 09:26.642\n所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算呢而且還有一個是入社魚叉飛彈的系統這個計畫的名稱是魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統這個預算也增加了36億元那這魚叉飛彈的預算增加的原因到底是什麼而且這兩個軍購案這樣其實加起來增加了總共有84億元\n\n09:47.827 --> 10:01.838\n但你們的預算書說明裡面卻沒有非常說明為什麼要增加這些預算但想說如果沒有被發現或許84億你們就這樣模糊過關了我想說你們可能要說明一下為什麼光這兩筆採購案的預算就增加了84億元呢\n\n10:07.779 --> 10:25.736\n包委員我就陸軍的48億我先檢要的報告這個屆時在大院預算審議的時候我們會先向各委員辦公室去逐步的說明那後面甚至也會在召委的規劃之下可能會來安排一個專報\n\n10:26.597 --> 10:41.541\n那我先簡單的說這個是在初始整個我們預算編列的時候就跟美國的發價書上面有預算不足的情形那當初我們也是一直持續的在認為有溢價的空間那在這個過程當中後面到了最終到了第五版的發價書已經沒有下修的空間那我們也啟動了相關的整規書和相關的補足這個預算的需求\n\n10:55.604 --> 11:13.333\n先做一個解藥的報告所以我想這48億元我覺得還是認為國防部有必要向本委員會提供相關的採購的清單因為突然在這兩年就馬上最後兩年突然多了48億那當然我們會想要知道到底採購了些什麼是可以嗎報告可以是OK\n\n11:21.226 --> 11:49.538\n那接下來我想請教一下部長另外一個問題就是輕型巡防艦原本按照原本的計畫是不是應該今年第三季交付第一艘的防空型而且在明年的第二季交付第二艘的反潛型是不是應該是這樣但是在115年的預算書上面看來交件的進度有點延宕了改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦是這樣嗎\n\n11:53.385 --> 12:20.480\n有關慶幸巡防艦的部分由於它的主機在這個主合約商的供貨的履約的能力上面它有一些這個落後所以目前它的主機會延到會在所以會在116年是116年的一個兩艘會在116年會來完成這個交接那我想請問一下就是這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家是中科院還是中信造船\n\n12:21.241 --> 12:40.877\n這個的主業商是中信是中信造船嘛是那主機的部分是國外的廠商所以這個案子是海軍直接跟中信造船簽約的嘛是這樣嗎是所以我比較在意的是那罰款最後因為他已經就是延宕了嘛這個罰款整個到最後是不是直接回到國庫呢\n\n12:43.854 --> 12:46.037\n就是你海軍是不是對中信造船採訪採訪之後這一筆費用是不是會回到國庫呢是的那我也就覺得奇怪了為什麼我上一次10月23在國防部業務報告中有說到就是說漢祥公司針對永英高校機\n\n13:02.496 --> 13:25.409\n這個整個交機的延宕的罰款的問題我說就全部都進入中科院的營運基金的小金庫但是中科院院長有說那天有說是三成留在中科院七成全部繳回國庫但是實際上漢翔付給中科院的罰款全部都是進到中科院的\n\n13:25.589 --> 13:28.990\n營運基金嘛竟然還可以列入當年度的會計的總收入甚至還拿去繳稅了這樣怎麼會合理呢你們覺得這樣合理嗎因為這個是不是太荒謬了呢這些罰款本來就是應該要交給國家的錢怎麼會被中科院全部拿去付其他的支出呢\n\n13:46.957 --> 13:50.761\n甚至拿來繳稅了那部長你覺得這樣中科院把這個罰款這樣使用是合理的嗎那中科院不是穩賺不賠的法人單位嗎那這樣是不是不合理的機制呢那部長是不是要請國防部要好好重新調整整個制度還是有什麼樣的想法\n\n14:07.267 --> 14:33.816\n委員當時在那個空軍委制我們我們跟漢祥簽約的時候因為我們是合約的甲方漢祥是合約的乙方所以說漢祥現在罰金繳給我們以後我們再先列入我們本院的收入再依照相關的稅制去繳回國庫但是上次質詢的時候我也跟委員講說其實這樣子的方式是由他檢討的必要性的所以未來再有類似的委制案的時候我們也會去改變一下這樣的制度\n\n14:34.116 --> 14:57.806\n因為我覺得這個還是要檢討啦因為出錢的是國防部嘛現在全部的罰金都是到了你們的營運基金結果是你們整個加減掉總支出之後的年度剩餘之後還要繳20%的營業所得稅之後才繳回國庫我覺得這個是比較不合理的機制所以我想國防部針對這個事情可能要處理一下是謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.727,"end":4.612,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國安部顧部長請顧部長林委"},{"start":13.359,"end":21.801,"text":"部長長 立法院在109年就通過了新式戰機的採購的特別預算那國防部也規劃在109年到115年循軍購的方式籌備了66架F16V的戰機還有相關的資源的系統和裝備經費整個是2472億那我想請問一下部長"},{"start":36.004,"end":39.546,"text":"這筆編列將近2500億的特別預算也就是對美國採購的66架的預算案眼看的明年應該就要執行完畢了但現在問題就是原本應該在112年就應該交機的結果一架都交不出來那現在都已經11月了"},{"start":55.814,"end":68.94,"text":"114年都要過完了竟然還是一架都沒有交機那整個騎乘一再的延宕又延宕那你們今天在報告中簡單的說延宕的原因是原規劃於115年權術非凡而且權力趕工那本席認為說115年要交付這66架應該是不太可能吧"},{"start":76.443,"end":88.451,"text":"所以到底國防部有沒有掌握美國方面的這方面的交付的進度呢因為每次只要是遇到F16V的交機的整個進度的延宕你們國防部都是很肯定的公開的說明而且還信誓旦旦的說明說每次在某一個時間點一定會開始交機那結果時間快到了又改口說要再繼續延宕那請問國防部目前對這一個新的交機的騎乘的規劃到底是什麼"},{"start":107.243,"end":127.971,"text":"跟委員報告 我想我們有附戰機的生產線來做限地查核那洛馬公司現在就是以每日平日兩班至二十小時來加速戰機的生產那在線組裝的有總共同時有五十架的飛機那另外也有已經完成集體組裝的那現在要做一個測試的飛行"},{"start":132.574,"end":142.131,"text":"然後如果測試順利的話 那就會來進行交機那如果測試順利之後 後續的交機就會比較可以加速來進行"},{"start":144.517,"end":148.481,"text":"那國安部到底有沒有派人去了解美國工廠實際上面的產製的進度呢如果有的話有沒有覺得說為什麼會錯估每次都錯估這整個的交付進度還是你們只是口頭上的去詢問美方而已還是美方根本就是不同意也不准我們過去呢這方面可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":167.12,"end":196.523,"text":"跟委員報告這個從專案一開始我們的駐場人員就已經開始進駐那每個月都有在這個專案會議裡面做一個瞭解掌握進度那最新的進度跟委員報告就是剛剛陳如剛剛部長所報告的我們現在有50架飛機在南卡的這個格林威爾這個生產線而且這個整個生產線現在目前裡面只有我們國家的飛機所有的這個生產的飛機都是我有準備交給"},{"start":196.963,"end":222.985,"text":"我們國家的飛機那整個50架飛機有10架飛機在年底可以完成組裝那組裝完成之後就可以進行飛試飛試如果說順利的話那後面的進度就可以比較加快加速那這個整個工程的部分還是有一些系統上的整合的這個問題所以說我們一直沒辦法跟委員做一個明確的答覆因為後續還有很多的工項要進行那"},{"start":224.206,"end":228.309,"text":"整個生產線的部分大概是這樣跟委員做一個報告好那我再詢問另外一個也是採購延宕的案子就是鳳展裝案明明141架的F16AV飛機現在都已經全部升級了嘛升級F16的戰機了但是為什麼裝在飛機上面的AGM的154C的整個飛彈到現在都還沒有交付呢"},{"start":249.201,"end":274.935,"text":"而且據了解原本這個專案規劃的期間是101年到112年然後後來又把111年延到115年然後在115年再繼續展延到117年那我想請問一下就是這些飛彈到底要展延多少次還有到底要拖多久還有未來的交付的進度和期程究竟是怎麼規劃應該不是不能說的秘密吧"},{"start":275.535,"end":302.491,"text":"老師跟委員報告因為陳委員剛剛提到的這個是在奉展專案奉展專案是101年開始到112年那在這過程中我們在106年美方同意公售這一項武器因為這個大專案飛機系統提升裡面也包含了幾個武器系統跟次系統還有一些裝備那在106年他們同意公售之後我們在108年修的發價書就把這個工項先放上去但是放上去之後"},{"start":303.611,"end":331.671,"text":"這個美軍一直跟合約商不敢做一個完成預約因為我們的構型是最新構型在108年這個最新構型都還沒有做出來所以說當時只是戰況在110年那後面陸陸續續我們越來越明朗他們也對這個產線的整合也越來越清楚所以說目前最新的進度是從我們今天的報告裡面提到在116到117年能夠完成這個整個彈的交付"},{"start":333.021,"end":351.448,"text":"所以像現在有那麼多的軍購案都是跟美國採購的然後川普都不斷的施壓要我們台灣都一直增加國防的軍費支出甚至到GDP的10%那我們要怎麼相信美國啊因為我們等不到武器啊又等不到零件啊那我們這樣的合作不是都變冤大頭了嗎所以我在想說還有未來國防部可能有一"},{"start":356.41,"end":363.077,"text":"2.3兆的國防特別預算這一筆特別預算還涉及到許多軍事的採購的經費而且這是非常龐大的特別預算而且據這個了解這很多都是美國的採購裝備啊但是如果國防部一直都沒有辦法"},{"start":372.105,"end":376.529,"text":"而且都是這樣就是一直在這些延宕的情況下這樣又沒有辦法把這個交付期程可以規劃得很好的話這樣我們的立法院怎麼相信你們的執行能力呢而且怎麼樣可以通過你們編列的預算呢我想全台灣的人民應該都沒有辦法接受這樣吧所以我還是想說"},{"start":394.722,"end":410.452,"text":"既然我們現在很多情況是沒有辦法馬上做到國防自主但是至少我們是買方也應該要有採購自主的權利所以請國防部要加油一定要透過多元的管道積極督促美方的履約這樣可以做得到嗎"},{"start":411.472,"end":434.642,"text":"跟委員報告 我想剛我們在報告裡面提到大概說主要的武器裝備我們大約有25個案子事實上很多的武器裝備都已經交運完畢或者是在交運中包括托斯2B 標槍飛彈 海馬4還有最近成軍的M1A2等等的所以並不是說我們跟美方的這些軍購案好像它全部都在延宕"},{"start":435.982,"end":460.066,"text":"延宕是我們不願意看到的但是對於這個相關的這些軍購案來講也是很有很多部分主要的武器裝備都是有如期的交運或者是交運完畢的狀況所以我想我們跟美方會對這個案子包括這個大家關切F16B會我們不斷的來增進這個"},{"start":467.51,"end":481.065,"text":"產運交制的一個速度我想美方也很有誠意特別有專案小組來督促我們也會跟他定期來做一個檢討我們當然很希望F-16B的飛機趕快的測試完畢之後來進行交付"},{"start":485.796,"end":499.165,"text":"好那剛才部長有提到就是那個M1A2T的戰車的情況所以我們在10月31號那一天有一個成軍典禮嘛那我現在想要請問一下說目前交付的80輛都應該到貨了對不對包委員是的"},{"start":504.059,"end":529.182,"text":"那同樣對美國採購100套的陸射魚叉飛彈系統這個是不是也在有案期程中在交付呢包委員我們第一批的4輛發射車跟雷達車已經在今年7月份到8月份已經交運了那前面因為COVID-19耽誤的這個進度目前我們也逐漸在趕上來我們持續的督促美方安援機關針對魚叉飛彈這個案子去加速"},{"start":530.687,"end":534.032,"text":"那我剛才為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案是因為本席在115年年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案竟然有一點偷偷被加價了因為NYA2T的計畫"},{"start":546.249,"end":547.47,"text":"名稱是新型戰車採購案為什麼115年度跟114年度的預算書來比起來預算上漲整整48億元而且總計有108輛的戰車都已經到達已經到了80輛"},{"start":562.961,"end":566.642,"text":"所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算呢而且還有一個是入社魚叉飛彈的系統這個計畫的名稱是魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統這個預算也增加了36億元那這魚叉飛彈的預算增加的原因到底是什麼而且這兩個軍購案這樣其實加起來增加了總共有84億元"},{"start":587.827,"end":601.838,"text":"但你們的預算書說明裡面卻沒有非常說明為什麼要增加這些預算但想說如果沒有被發現或許84億你們就這樣模糊過關了我想說你們可能要說明一下為什麼光這兩筆採購案的預算就增加了84億元呢"},{"start":607.779,"end":625.736,"text":"包委員我就陸軍的48億我先檢要的報告這個屆時在大院預算審議的時候我們會先向各委員辦公室去逐步的說明那後面甚至也會在召委的規劃之下可能會來安排一個專報"},{"start":626.597,"end":641.541,"text":"那我先簡單的說這個是在初始整個我們預算編列的時候就跟美國的發價書上面有預算不足的情形那當初我們也是一直持續的在認為有溢價的空間那在這個過程當中後面到了最終到了第五版的發價書已經沒有下修的空間那我們也啟動了相關的整規書和相關的補足這個預算的需求"},{"start":655.604,"end":673.333,"text":"先做一個解藥的報告所以我想這48億元我覺得還是認為國防部有必要向本委員會提供相關的採購的清單因為突然在這兩年就馬上最後兩年突然多了48億那當然我們會想要知道到底採購了些什麼是可以嗎報告可以是OK"},{"start":681.226,"end":709.538,"text":"那接下來我想請教一下部長另外一個問題就是輕型巡防艦原本按照原本的計畫是不是應該今年第三季交付第一艘的防空型而且在明年的第二季交付第二艘的反潛型是不是應該是這樣但是在115年的預算書上面看來交件的進度有點延宕了改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦是這樣嗎"},{"start":713.385,"end":740.48,"text":"有關慶幸巡防艦的部分由於它的主機在這個主合約商的供貨的履約的能力上面它有一些這個落後所以目前它的主機會延到會在所以會在116年是 116年的一個兩艘會在116年會來完成這個交接那我想請問一下就是這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家是中科院還是中信造船"},{"start":741.241,"end":760.877,"text":"這個的主業商是中信是中信造船嘛是那主機的部分是國外的廠商所以這個案子是海軍直接跟中信造船簽約的嘛是這樣嗎是所以我比較在意的是那罰款最後因為他已經就是延宕了嘛這個罰款整個到最後是不是直接回到國庫呢"},{"start":763.854,"end":766.037,"text":"就是你海軍是不是對中信造船採訪採訪之後這一筆費用是不是會回到國庫呢是的那我也就覺得奇怪了為什麼我上一次10月23在國防部業務報告中有說到就是說漢祥公司針對永英高校機"},{"start":782.496,"end":805.409,"text":"這個整個交機的延宕的罰款的問題我說就全部都進入中科院的營運基金的小金庫但是中科院院長有說那天有說是三成留在中科院七成全部繳回國庫但是實際上漢翔付給中科院的罰款全部都是進到中科院的"},{"start":805.589,"end":808.99,"text":"營運基金嘛竟然還可以列入當年度的會計的總收入甚至還拿去繳稅了這樣怎麼會合理呢你們覺得這樣合理嗎因為這個是不是太荒謬了呢這些罰款本來就是應該要交給國家的錢怎麼會被中科院全部拿去付其他的支出呢"},{"start":826.957,"end":830.761,"text":"甚至拿來繳稅了那部長你覺得這樣中科院把這個罰款這樣使用是合理的嗎那中科院不是穩賺不賠的法人單位嗎那這樣是不是不合理的機制呢那部長是不是要請國防部要好好重新調整整個制度還是有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":847.267,"end":873.816,"text":"委員當時在那個空軍委制我們我們跟漢祥簽約的時候因為我們是合約的甲方漢祥是合約的乙方所以說漢祥現在罰金繳給我們以後我們再先列入我們本院的收入再依照相關的稅制去繳回國庫但是上次質詢的時候我也跟委員講說其實這樣子的方式是由他檢討的必要性的所以未來再有類似的委制案的時候我們也會去改變一下這樣的制度"},{"start":874.116,"end":897.806,"text":"因為我覺得這個還是要檢討啦因為出錢的是國防部嘛現在全部的罰金都是到了你們的營運基金結果是你們整個加減掉總支出之後的年度剩餘之後還要繳20%的營業所得稅之後才繳回國庫我覺得這個是比較不合理的機制所以我想國防部針對這個事情可能要處理一下是謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":834,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（12時27分）謝謝主席，有請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長早。立法院在109年就通過新式戰機採購的特別預算，國防部也規劃在109年到115年循軍購的方式籌備66架F-16V的戰機，還有相關支援的系統和裝備，整個經費是2,472億。我想請問一下部長，這筆編列將近2,500億的特別預算，也就是對美國採購66架的預算案，眼看著明年應該就要執行完畢了，問題是原本應該在112年就要交機的，結果現在一架都交不出來，現在都已經11月了，114年都要過完了，竟然還是一架都沒有交機，整個期程一再的延宕又延宕。你們今天在報告中簡單的說，延宕的原因是原規劃於115年全數飛返，而且全力趕工，但本席認為115年要交付這66架，應該是不太可能吧！所以到底國防部有沒有掌握美國這方面交付的進度呢？因為每次只要是遇到F-16V交機進度的延宕，你們國防部都是很肯定的、公開的說明，而且還信誓旦旦的說明，每次都說在某一個時間點一定會開始交機，結果時間快到了又改口說要再繼續延宕。請問國防部目前對新的交機期程的規劃到底是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們有赴戰機的生產線來做現地查核，洛馬公司現在就是以每日、平日兩班制20小時來加速戰機的生產，在線組裝的總共同時有50架的飛機。另外也有已經完成機體組裝的，現在要做測試的飛行，如果測試順利的話，就會來進行交機，如果測試順利，後續的交機就比較可以加速來進行。"],["林委員憶君：國防部到底有沒有派人去了解美國工廠實際上產製的進度呢？如果有的話，有沒有覺得為什麼每次都錯估這整個的交付進度？還是你們只是口頭上的去詢問美方而已？還是美方根本就是不同意，也不准我們過去呢？這方面可以說明一下嗎？"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員報告，從專案一開始，我們的駐廠人員就已經開始進駐，每個月都有在專案會議裡面做了解、掌握進度，最新的進度誠如剛剛部長所報告的，我們現在有50架飛機，在南卡的格林威爾生產線，而且目前整個生產線裡面只有我們國家的飛機，所有生產的飛機都是準備交給我們國家的飛機。50架飛機其中有10架飛機在年底可以完成組裝，組裝完成之後，就可以進行飛試，如果順利的話，後面的進度就可以比較加快加速。至於整個工程的部分，還是有一些系統上整合的問題，所以我們一直沒辦法跟委員做一個明確的答復，因為後續還有很多的工項要進行，整個生產線的部分大概是這樣，跟委員做一個報告。"],["林委員憶君：好，我再詢問另外一個也是採購延宕的案子──鳳展專案，明明141架的F-16A/B飛機現在都已經全部升級了，升級F-16的戰機了，但是為什麼裝在飛機上面AGM-154C的飛彈，到現在都還沒有交付呢？而且據了解，原本這個專案規劃的期間是101年到112年，後來又把111年延到115年，然後115年再繼續展延到117年，那我想請問一下，這些飛彈到底要展延多少次？到底要拖多久？還有未來交付的進度和期程究竟是怎麼規劃，應該不是不能說的秘密吧？"],["李參謀長慶然：是，跟委員報告，誠如委員剛剛提到的，這個是在鳳展專案，鳳展專案是101年開始到112年，在這過程中，我們在106年美方同意供售這一項武器，因為這個大專案飛機系統提升裡面也包含了幾個武器系統跟次系統，還有一些裝備；在106年他們同意供售之後，我們在108年修的發價書就把這個工項先放上去。但是放上去之後，美軍跟合約商一直不敢完成議約，因為我們的構型是最新構型，在108年這個最新構型都還沒有做出來，所以當時只是暫框在110年，而後面陸陸續續越來越明朗，他們對這個產線的整合也越來越清楚，所以目前最新的進度誠如我們今天的報告裡面提到，在116到117年能夠完成這整個彈的交付。"],["林委員憶君：所以，像現在有那麼多的軍購案都是跟美國採購的，然後川普都不斷的施壓，要我們臺灣一直增加國防的軍費支出，甚至到GDP的10%，我們要怎麼相信美國啊？因為我們等不到武器，又等不到零件，我們這樣的合作，不是都變冤大頭了嗎？所以我在想說，未來國防部可能有1.3兆的國防特別預算，這一筆特別預算還涉及到許多軍事採購的經費，而且這是非常龐大的特別預算，據了解這很多都是美國的採購裝備啊！但是如果國防部一直都沒有辦法自主，而且都是這樣，一直在這些延宕的情況下，又沒有辦法把這個交付期程可以規劃得很好的話，這樣我們的立法院怎麼相信你們的執行能力呢？而且怎麼樣可以通過你們編列的預算呢？我想全臺灣的人民應該都沒有辦法接受這樣吧？所以我還是想說，既然我們現在很多情況是沒有辦法馬上做到國防自主，但是至少我們是買方，也應該要有採購自主的權力，所以請國防部要加油，一定要透過多元的管道，積極督促美方的履約，這樣可以做得到嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們剛剛在報告裡面提到，主要的武器裝備我們大約有25個案子，事實上，很多武器裝備都已經交運完畢或正在交運中，包括拖式2B、標槍飛彈、海馬士，還有最近成軍的M1A2T等等，所以並不是我們跟美方的軍購案好像全部都在延宕，延宕是我們不願意看到的，但是對於相關的軍購案來講，也是很多部分主要的武器裝備都有如期交運或是交運完畢的狀況，所以我想我們跟美方會對這個案子，包括大家關切的F-16V，我們會不斷地趕製，就是產製交運的速度，我想美方也很有誠意特別有一個專案小組來督促，我們也會跟他定期來做檢討，我們當然很希望F-16V飛機趕快測試完畢之後來進行交付。"],["林委員憶君：好，剛剛部長有提到M1A2T戰車的情況，所以我們在10月31那一天有一個成軍典禮，我現在想要請問一下，目前交付的80輛都應該到貨了，對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，是的。"],["林委員憶君：同樣對美國採購100套陸射魚叉飛彈系統，是不是也有按期程在交付呢？"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，我們第一批4輛發射車跟雷達車，已經在今年7月份到8月份交運了，前面因為COVID-19耽誤的進度，目前我們也逐漸趕上來，我們持續督促美方案源機關針對魚叉飛彈的案子去加速。"],["林委員憶君：好，我剛剛為什麼會詢問這個是因為我有看到這兩項的軍購案，本席在115年度送來的預算中有發現這兩項的軍購案，竟然有一點偷偷被加價了，因為M1A2T的計畫名稱是「新型戰車採購案」，為什麼115年度跟114年度的預算書比起來，預算上漲整整48億元？而且總計108輛的戰車已經到了80輛，所以為什麼最後兩年會增加這個預算？而且還有一個是陸射魚叉飛彈系統，這個計畫的名稱是「魚叉飛彈海岸防衛系統」，這個預算也增加了36億元，魚叉飛彈預算會增加的原因到底是什麼？而且這兩個軍購案其實加起來增加了總共84億元，但你們的預算書說明欄裡面卻沒有說明為什麼要增加這些預算？想說如果沒有被發現，或許84億你們就這樣矇混過關了，你們可能要說明一下，為什麼光這兩筆採購案的預算就增加了84億元呢？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，就陸軍的48億，我先簡要報告，屆時在大院預算審議的時候，我們會先向各委員辦公室逐步的說明，後面甚至也會在召委的規劃之下，可能會來安排一個專報。我先簡單的說，這個是在初始整個預算編列的時候，就跟美國的發價書上面有預算不足的情形，當初我們也是一直持續認為有議價的空間，在這個過程當中，直到最終第五版的發價書已經沒有下修的空間，我們也啟動了相關的整規書和補足這個預算的需求，先做一個簡要的報告，後面會完整向……"],["林委員憶君：所以這48億元，我還是認為國防部有必要向本委員會提供相關的採購清單。"],["陳參謀長建義：是、會。"],["林委員憶君：因為突然在最後兩年突然多了48億，當然我們會想要知道到底採購了些什麼，可以嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：是，報告可以。"],["林委員憶君：好。接下來，我想請教部長另外一個問題，輕型巡防艦按照原本的計畫是不是應該在今年第三季交付第一艘防空型，而且在明年第二季交付第二艘反潛型，是不是應該這樣？但是在115年的預算書上面看來交艦的進度有點延宕了，改成116年先後交付兩艘的巡防艦，是這樣嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員，海軍報告，有關輕型巡防艦的部分，由於它的主機在主合約商供貨的履約能力上面有一些落後，所以目前它的主機會延到……"],["林委員憶君：所以會在116年先後交貨。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：對，兩艘會在116年來完成交接。"],["林委員憶君：我想請問一下，這個巡防艦的主合約商是哪一家？是中科院還是中信造船？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：這個的主合約商是中信。"],["林委員憶君：是中信造船嘛？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，主機的部分是國外的廠商。"],["林委員憶君：所以這個案子是海軍直接跟中信造船簽約的，是這樣嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["林委員憶君：好，所以我比較在意的是罰款，因為它已經延宕了嘛，這個罰款到最後是不是整個直接回到國庫呢？就是海軍是不是對中信造船裁罰，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["林委員憶君：裁罰之後這一筆費用是不是會回到國庫呢？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是的。"],["林委員憶君：好，那我也就覺得奇怪了，為什麼我上一次10月23日在國防部業務報告中有說到，漢翔公司針對勇鷹高教機整個交機延宕的罰款問題，我說：就全部都進入中科院營運基金的小金庫，但是中科院院長那一天有說：是三成留在中科院，七成全部繳回國庫。但是實際上，漢翔付給中科院的罰款全部都是進到中科院的營運基金，竟然還可以列入當年度會計的總收入，甚至還拿去繳稅了，這樣怎麼會合理呢？你們覺得這樣合理嗎？因為這個是不是太荒謬了呢？這些罰款本來就應該要交給國家的錢，怎麼會被中科院全部拿去付其他的支出呢？甚至拿來繳稅了。部長，你覺得中科院把這個罰款這樣使用是合理的嗎？中科院不是穩賺不賠的法人單位嗎？這樣是不是不合理的機制呢？部長，是不是要請國防部要好好重新調整整個制度，還是有什麼樣的想法？"],["李院長世強：委員，當時在空軍委製我們跟漢翔簽約的時候，因為我們是合約的甲方，漢翔是合約的乙方，所以漢翔現在把罰金繳給我們以後，我們先列入本院的收入，再依照相關的稅制去繳回國庫，但是上次質詢的時候，我也跟委員講說，其實這樣的方式是有它檢討的必要性，所以未來再有類似的委製案的時候，我們也會去改變這樣的制度。"],["林委員憶君：我覺得這個還是要檢討啦！因為出錢的是國防部嘛，現在全部的罰金都是到了你們的營運基金，結果是整個加減掉總支出的年度賸餘，之後還要繳20%的營業所得稅，再才繳回國庫，我覺得這個是比較不合理的機制，所以我想國防部針對這個事情可能要處理一下。"],["顧部長立雄：是！"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}