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\"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 833.76, \"end\": 833.92, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 833.92, \"end\": 834.06, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 834.06, \"end\": 834.241, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 834.241, \"end\": 834.601, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 834.601, \"end\": 834.621, \"score\": 0.022}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:02,410\n部長好針對潛電國造台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們向來所抱持的政策立場是支持\n\n2\n00:00:22,082 --> 00:00:48,376\n那因為支持所以在去年處理相關預算的時候我們除了要求在原型艦海策成功之前先凍結8艘50%的預算也就是有4艘的錢完全可以都同意那其他的我們並沒有做太強就是強度太強的監督\n\n3\n00:00:50,869 --> 00:01:04,674\n理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做希望給我們國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵多一點的空間讓他們去做所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場\n\n4\n00:01:06,175 --> 00:01:34,629\n不過最近過去這段時間所發生的一些事情讓我們不得不重新的去思考重新的去調整重新的去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情因為有非常多的國人提出質疑的事情是我們第一艘的原型艦我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少\n\n5\n00:01:36,926 --> 00:02:04,280\n海軍參謀長報告因為意見是493億493億同一個時期日本的艙金號你知不知道他們的預算是多少報員有掌握到媒體上面大概是151到170億之間中間的價差是我們做的是等級比較高比較厲害潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良嗎\n\n6\n00:02:06,252 --> 00:02:12,622\n三倍以上三倍以上的價格具體的原因是什麼日本做150億我們做193億委員報告他這個裡面\n\n7\n00:02:21,681 --> 00:02:22,041\n你說的是日本嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:46,987 --> 00:03:06,044\n剛剛不是說493億嗎那個要加上那個廠房的建造因為是第一艘嘛所以還有海軍的武器款那沒有關係還是比人家貴兩倍以上所以我現在問的事情是我們現在做的首艘的原型艦是潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良理由是什麼\n\n9\n00:03:07,077 --> 00:03:32,448\n我想因為第一艘的這個潛艦的一個製造跟日本說自製這個潛艦他們這麼早就起源甚早了他們這個傳統的鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術所以他們一直有在持續建造當中可以大幅的降低建造的成本第一艘\n\n10\n00:03:33,707 --> 00:03:55,324\n給比較多的預算比較大的空間我剛剛跟部長說明過台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的所以過去我們沒有多說什麼但是最近發生的一些事情我們一個一個來看去年我看法定預算你們本來今年是要編9億多\n\n11\n00:03:58,615 --> 00:04:22,319\n那今年所提出來的預算書我拜讀了預算書以後是依照本部114年就是今年8月4號國海紀管制的那個令核定那核定的預算只有1億4560萬那大幅減少了8億多的金額理由是什麼\n\n12\n00:04:26,711 --> 00:04:53,977\n跟委員報告那今年本來原型間編的是9億但是因為這個魚雷的部分它有延遲的分批交運所以我們把扣掉的這個魚雷款要往因為沒有交運我們也就沒有付所以今年扣掉7.7億是我們今年實際上編列的1.4億全部都是魚雷的是的然後跟7月3號扶航測試的結果沒有關係沒有關係完全沒有關係嗎是的好\n\n13\n00:04:55,134 --> 00:05:10,110\n我們接下來再來看上個禮拜媒體披露說海昆號一出港就勝水台船發了聲明嚴厲的駁斥說絕對沒有這樣的事情請問有沒有這樣的事情\n\n14\n00:05:14,475 --> 00:05:32,530\n報委員沒有這件事情完全沒有這樣的事情是的所以呢現在這個海昆號如果出航如果進行潛航的話會不會出現聖水的狀況你們現在有掌握嗎報委員不會有這個狀況目前都絕對不會有這樣的狀況\n\n15\n00:05:33,667 --> 00:05:57,928\n我們一定會是達到安全跟無魚子的狀況下來沒有關係我今天只要一個清楚的答案一個清楚的承諾事後會不會有這樣的狀況我們留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗因為我不喜歡臆測啦媒體這樣子寫有人提出這樣的質疑從台船的立場來看台船一定說沒有嗎\n\n16\n00:05:58,973 --> 00:06:19,008\n因為他要做這個生意他要繼續做嘛那但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力已經有很多雜音出來了啦那所以我希望國防部也好海軍也好有你們的立場清楚的表明讓國人安心啊因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫啊\n\n17\n00:06:20,589 --> 00:06:36,954\n有潛艦巡商經驗的前海軍上校黃振輝他也很擔心我們現在這個原型艦接下來會不會時程不斷延後預算無止境的追加所以你們現在編的預算第一艘要497億498億按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠\n\n18\n00:06:44,015 --> 00:07:11,047\n抱怨現在第一艘目前的部分這個在人力部分台船花了比較多的這個人力的一個沒有啦所以我就問你錢夠不夠啊預算會不會再追加第一艘目前沒有第一艘不會你的意思是後期艘會嗎後續艘現在預算書表我們現在在做後續艦的剛開始在第一個年度我們會持續的針對著相關的建造跟後續的測試還有相關的裝備我們會做一個合理的估算\n\n19\n00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:35,235\n所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎?抱怨就是這個我們會審慎繼續來評估目前是啊所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啦預算會不會再追加第一個是原型件他跟我說不會嘛我相信他嘛後續的會不會再追加是我的第二個問題我想後續件要依照這個建造跟測試實際狀況跟經驗我們來我們就來看\n\n20\n00:07:40,387 --> 00:07:51,111\n海昆號之前去乾屋裡面做測試嘛乾屋測試9月2號出屋了嘛到目前為止有沒有出現什麼問題針對潛航的測試下一個階段的潛航的測試什麼時候要進行\n\n21\n00:07:59,681 --> 00:08:21,475\n我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了現在主要就是兩個測試有有有那個報告我都有看所以我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試我們現在還在進行調校當中是要調校多久我們當然是希望11月能夠進行一個相關的一個再進行扶航測試11月有信心嗎我們\n\n22\n00:08:25,391 --> 00:08:50,086\n按照現在這個狀況來講我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行赴航測試可以11月測試嗎沒有啦我必須要說啦雖然是在野黨的立委但是作為台灣的一份子我們花了這麼多的心神花了這麼多的時間投入了精力去做潛艦國造我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣大家都希望成功\n\n23\n00:08:51,027 --> 00:09:19,062\n沒有人希望他失敗但是我們希望他成功的同時這不是只有主觀的期待而已啊外界所提出來的一些質疑我們作為立法委員就是必須要關心是不是真的能夠如期的成功因為事實上整個的時程本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差那不是不相信你們\n\n24\n00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:42,115\n我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗來去擔心未來可能會出現的問題這個就牽涉到下一個我們的原型件我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的六個小功率引擎然後後續件會改成德國MTU公司的引擎這個資訊正確嗎\n\n25\n00:09:45,050 --> 00:10:11,392\n抱怨這個資訊牽扯到商情跟後續的獲得我們建議不在這邊做好沒有關係啦你這樣說我尊重但我之所以會這樣問這都是我從公開的資訊整理出來的結果那我從公開的資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後我當然我自己不會見錢水艇啊我也不是這方面的專家那我就要去請教專家嘛\n\n26\n00:10:12,506 --> 00:10:28,812\n那專家給我的feedback提醒我們要注意的事情是說如果原型件假設啦如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的是瑞典那家公司的六個小公寓引擎\n\n27\n00:10:30,115 --> 00:10:50,123\n後續見因為有六個小公立引擎我無意去批評這家瑞典公司但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了啦完全不合格完全不合格那媒體這樣的批評有道理沒有道理我們事後都可以再檢視你符不符合作戰的需求嘛\n\n28\n00:10:50,984 --> 00:11:13,465\n那但是現在如果後續件改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好所以才要改那現在有個問題是原型件跟後續件我們當初投入這麼大的資源做原型件就是希望它的規格相關的配備可以作為後續件一個非常重要的前道但是如果\n\n29\n00:11:14,731 --> 00:11:27,265\n連主機的引擎一個六個一個兩個不同的廠牌然後裡面的設計相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接\n\n30\n00:11:29,335 --> 00:11:51,164\n截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點這樣子的問題有沒有道理還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情目前國防部已經了然於胸後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題\n\n31\n00:11:52,384 --> 00:12:01,748\n今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場這些質疑有沒有道理我再強調一次後續都有時間可以檢驗請說明\n\n32\n00:12:05,671 --> 00:12:23,459\n呃跟委員報告呃針對後續艦的不管是在構型或是其他的裝備的選取我們都會透過本來就是會在一個選商的一個機制都會符合這個作戰的需求還有它後續的可能遇到的一個對不起你沒有回答我的問題啊是那跟委員報告就是說我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係還是原型艦蓋原型艦的後續艦蓋後續艦的兩個沒有什麼關係\n\n33\n00:12:30,062 --> 00:12:56,473\n要說明的就是說這些我們都有審慎評估也會覺得您我們如果說是必要的這個構型的或是必要的調整都在原先的作戰需求的設計規範裡面也都是符合他作戰需求所以我就說你還是沒有回答我的問題啊我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦為什麼原型艦要海撤成功後面才要解凍就第一艘成功了嘛長這個樣子沒有問題了嘛\n\n34\n00:12:59,008 --> 00:13:13,661\n那後面的部分所以我們同意解凍嘛但今天聽你給我對我問題的回覆似乎是說你們心裡好像也有準備後續線長的也跟原型線會不太一樣是嗎\n\n35\n00:13:15,914 --> 00:13:34,073\n後續件長的跟原型件會不太一樣怪表構型跟流線是一樣作戰需求不會調整至於有些動力部分調整跟剛才委員所以動力的部分是會調整嗎依照這個地方我們不做再進行討論因為這個涉及到商員跟其他有關的沒有關係啊我再講一次我們的基本立場\n\n36\n00:13:35,074 --> 00:13:54,621\n我希望潛艦國造可以成功背負了非常多國人的期待也投入了相當多的資源但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了在這件事情上面我們國會真的有必要後續未來也會加強監督的力道好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t2410\t部長好針對潛電國造台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們向來所抱持的政策立場是支持\n22082\t48376\t那因為支持所以在去年處理相關預算的時候我們除了要求在原型艦海策成功之前先凍結8艘50%的預算也就是有4艘的錢完全可以都同意那其他的我們並沒有做太強就是強度太強的監督\n50869\t64674\t理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做希望給我們國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵多一點的空間讓他們去做所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場\n66175\t94629\t不過最近過去這段時間所發生的一些事情讓我們不得不重新的去思考重新的去調整重新的去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情因為有非常多的國人提出質疑的事情是我們第一艘的原型艦我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少\n96926\t124280\t海軍參謀長報告 因為意見是493億493億 同一個時期 日本的艙金號你知不知道他們的預算是多少報員 有掌握到媒體上面大概是151到170億之間中間的價差是 我們做的是等級比較高 比較厲害潛的比較深 開的比較快 武器比較精良嗎\n126252\t132622\t三倍以上三倍以上的價格具體的原因是什麼 日本做150億我們做193億委員報告 他這個裡面\n141681\t142041\t你說的是日本嗎?\n166987\t186044\t剛剛不是說493億嗎那個要加上那個廠房的建造因為是第一艘嘛所以還有海軍的武器款那沒有關係還是比人家貴兩倍以上所以我現在問的事情是我們現在做的首艘的原型艦是潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良理由是什麼\n187077\t212448\t我想因為第一艘的這個潛艦的一個製造跟日本說自製這個潛艦他們這麼早就起源甚早了他們這個傳統的鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術所以他們一直有在持續建造當中可以大幅的降低建造的成本第一艘\n213707\t235324\t給比較多的預算比較大的空間我剛剛跟部長說明過台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的所以過去我們沒有多說什麼但是最近發生的一些事情我們一個一個來看去年我看法定預算你們本來今年是要編9億多\n238615\t262319\t那今年所提出來的預算書我拜讀了預算書以後是依照本部114年就是今年8月4號國海紀管制的那個令核定那核定的預算只有1億4560萬那大幅減少了8億多的金額理由是什麼\n266711\t293977\t跟委員報告那今年本來原型間編的是9億但是因為這個魚雷的部分它有延遲的分批交運所以我們把扣掉的這個魚雷款要往因為沒有交運我們也就沒有付所以今年扣掉7.7億是我們今年實際上編列的1.4億全部都是魚雷的是的然後跟7月3號扶航測試的結果沒有關係沒有關係完全沒有關係嗎是的好\n295134\t310110\t我們接下來再來看上個禮拜媒體披露說海昆號一出港就勝水台船發了聲明嚴厲的駁斥說絕對沒有這樣的事情請問有沒有這樣的事情\n314475\t332530\t報委員沒有這件事情完全沒有這樣的事情是的所以呢現在這個海昆號如果出航如果進行潛航的話會不會出現聖水的狀況你們現在有掌握嗎報委員不會有這個狀況目前都絕對不會有這樣的狀況\n333667\t357928\t我們一定會是達到安全跟無魚子的狀況下來沒有關係 我今天只要一個清楚的答案一個清楚的承諾事後會不會有這樣的狀況我們留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗因為我不喜歡臆測啦媒體這樣子寫 有人提出這樣的質疑從台船的立場來看 台船一定說沒有嗎\n358973\t379008\t因為他要做這個生意他要繼續做嘛那但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力已經有很多雜音出來了啦那所以我希望國防部也好海軍也好有你們的立場清楚的表明讓國人安心啊因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫啊\n380589\t396954\t有潛艦巡商經驗的前海軍上校黃振輝他也很擔心我們現在這個原型艦接下來會不會時程不斷延後預算無止境的追加所以你們現在編的預算第一艘要497億498億按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠\n404015\t431047\t抱怨現在第一艘目前的部分這個在人力部分台船花了比較多的這個人力的一個沒有啦所以我就問你錢夠不夠啊預算會不會再追加第一艘目前沒有第一艘不會你的意思是後期艘會嗎後續艘現在預算書表我們現在在做後續艦的剛開始在第一個年度我們會持續的針對著相關的建造跟後續的測試還有相關的裝備我們會做一個合理的估算\n431960\t455235\t所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎?抱怨就是 這個我們會審慎繼續來評估目前是啊 所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啦預算會不會再追加第一個是原型件他跟我說不會嘛我相信他嘛後續的會不會再追加是我的第二個問題我想後續件要依照這個建造跟測試實際狀況跟經驗我們來我們就來看\n460387\t471111\t海昆號之前去乾屋裡面做測試嘛乾屋測試9月2號出屋了嘛到目前為止有沒有出現什麼問題針對潛航的測試下一個階段的潛航的測試什麼時候要進行\n479681\t501475\t我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了現在主要就是兩個測試有有有 那個報告我都有看所以我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試我們現在還在進行調校當中是 要調校多久我們當然是希望11月能夠進行一個相關的一個再進行扶航測試11月 有信心嗎我們\n505391\t530086\t按照現在這個狀況來講我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行赴航測試可以11月測試嗎沒有啦我必須要說啦雖然是在野黨的立委但是作為台灣的一份子我們花了這麼多的心神花了這麼多的時間投入了精力去做潛艦國造我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣大家都希望成功\n531027\t559062\t沒有人希望他失敗但是我們希望他成功的同時這不是只有主觀的期待而已啊外界所提出來的一些質疑我們作為立法委員就是必須要關心是不是真的能夠如期的成功因為事實上整個的時程本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差那不是不相信你們\n560100\t582115\t我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗來去擔心未來可能會出現的問題這個就牽涉到下一個我們的原型件我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的六個小功率引擎然後後續件會改成德國MTU公司的引擎這個資訊正確嗎\n585050\t611392\t抱怨這個資訊牽扯到商情跟後續的獲得我們建議不在這邊做好沒有關係啦你這樣說我尊重但我之所以會這樣問這都是我從公開的資訊整理出來的結果那我從公開的資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後我當然我自己不會見錢水艇啊我也不是這方面的專家那我就要去請教專家嘛\n612506\t628812\t那專家給我的feedback提醒我們要注意的事情是說如果原型件假設啦如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的是瑞典那家公司的六個小公寓引擎\n630115\t650123\t後續見因為有六個小公立引擎我無意去批評這家瑞典公司但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了啦完全不合格 完全不合格那媒體這樣的批評有道理沒有道理我們事後都可以再檢視你符不符合作戰的需求嘛\n650984\t673465\t那但是現在如果後續件改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好所以才要改那現在有個問題是原型件跟後續件我們當初投入這麼大的資源做原型件就是希望它的規格相關的配備可以作為後續件一個非常重要的前道但是如果\n674731\t687265\t連主機的引擎一個六個一個兩個不同的廠牌然後裡面的設計相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接\n689335\t711164\t截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點這樣子的問題有沒有道理還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情目前國防部已經了然於胸後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題\n712384\t721748\t今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場這些質疑有沒有道理我再強調一次後續都有時間可以檢驗請說明\n725671\t743459\t呃 跟委員報告 呃 針對後續艦的不管是在構型或是其他的裝備的選取我們都會透過 本來就是會在一個選商的一個機制都會符合這個作戰的需求還有它後續的可能遇到的一個 對不起你沒有回答我的問題啊是 那跟委員報告就是說我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係還是原型艦蓋原型艦的 後續艦蓋後續艦的兩個沒有什麼關係\n750062\t776473\t要說明的就是說這些我們都有審慎評估也會覺得您我們如果說是必要的這個構型的或是必要的調整都在原先的作戰需求的設計規範裡面也都是符合他作戰需求所以我就說你還是沒有回答我的問題啊我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦為什麼原型艦要海撤成功後面才要解凍就第一艘成功了嘛長這個樣子沒有問題了嘛\n779008\t793661\t那後面的部分所以我們同意解凍嘛但今天聽你給我對我問題的回覆似乎是說你們心裡好像也有準備後續線長的也跟原型線會不太一樣是嗎\n795914\t814073\t後續件長的跟原型件會不太一樣怪表構型跟流線是一樣作戰需求不會調整至於有些動力部分調整跟剛才委員所以動力的部分是會調整嗎依照這個地方我們不做再進行討論因為這個涉及到商員跟其他有關的沒有關係啊我再講一次我們的基本立場\n815074\t834621\t我希望潛艦國造可以成功背負了非常多國人的期待也投入了相當多的資源但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了在這件事情上面我們國會真的有必要後續未來也會加強監督的力道好 謝謝\n","txt":"部長好針對潛電國造台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們向來所抱持的政策立場是支持\n那因為支持所以在去年處理相關預算的時候我們除了要求在原型艦海策成功之前先凍結8艘50%的預算也就是有4艘的錢完全可以都同意那其他的我們並沒有做太強就是強度太強的監督\n理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做希望給我們國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵多一點的空間讓他們去做所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場\n不過最近過去這段時間所發生的一些事情讓我們不得不重新的去思考重新的去調整重新的去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情因為有非常多的國人提出質疑的事情是我們第一艘的原型艦我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少\n海軍參謀長報告 因為意見是493億493億 同一個時期 日本的艙金號你知不知道他們的預算是多少報員 有掌握到媒體上面大概是151到170億之間中間的價差是 我們做的是等級比較高 比較厲害潛的比較深 開的比較快 武器比較精良嗎\n三倍以上三倍以上的價格具體的原因是什麼 日本做150億我們做193億委員報告 他這個裡面\n你說的是日本嗎?\n剛剛不是說493億嗎那個要加上那個廠房的建造因為是第一艘嘛所以還有海軍的武器款那沒有關係還是比人家貴兩倍以上所以我現在問的事情是我們現在做的首艘的原型艦是潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良理由是什麼\n我想因為第一艘的這個潛艦的一個製造跟日本說自製這個潛艦他們這麼早就起源甚早了他們這個傳統的鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術所以他們一直有在持續建造當中可以大幅的降低建造的成本第一艘\n給比較多的預算比較大的空間我剛剛跟部長說明過台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的所以過去我們沒有多說什麼但是最近發生的一些事情我們一個一個來看去年我看法定預算你們本來今年是要編9億多\n那今年所提出來的預算書我拜讀了預算書以後是依照本部114年就是今年8月4號國海紀管制的那個令核定那核定的預算只有1億4560萬那大幅減少了8億多的金額理由是什麼\n跟委員報告那今年本來原型間編的是9億但是因為這個魚雷的部分它有延遲的分批交運所以我們把扣掉的這個魚雷款要往因為沒有交運我們也就沒有付所以今年扣掉7.7億是我們今年實際上編列的1.4億全部都是魚雷的是的然後跟7月3號扶航測試的結果沒有關係沒有關係完全沒有關係嗎是的好\n我們接下來再來看上個禮拜媒體披露說海昆號一出港就勝水台船發了聲明嚴厲的駁斥說絕對沒有這樣的事情請問有沒有這樣的事情\n報委員沒有這件事情完全沒有這樣的事情是的所以呢現在這個海昆號如果出航如果進行潛航的話會不會出現聖水的狀況你們現在有掌握嗎報委員不會有這個狀況目前都絕對不會有這樣的狀況\n我們一定會是達到安全跟無魚子的狀況下來沒有關係 我今天只要一個清楚的答案一個清楚的承諾事後會不會有這樣的狀況我們留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗因為我不喜歡臆測啦媒體這樣子寫 有人提出這樣的質疑從台船的立場來看 台船一定說沒有嗎\n因為他要做這個生意他要繼續做嘛那但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力已經有很多雜音出來了啦那所以我希望國防部也好海軍也好有你們的立場清楚的表明讓國人安心啊因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫啊\n有潛艦巡商經驗的前海軍上校黃振輝他也很擔心我們現在這個原型艦接下來會不會時程不斷延後預算無止境的追加所以你們現在編的預算第一艘要497億498億按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠\n抱怨現在第一艘目前的部分這個在人力部分台船花了比較多的這個人力的一個沒有啦所以我就問你錢夠不夠啊預算會不會再追加第一艘目前沒有第一艘不會你的意思是後期艘會嗎後續艘現在預算書表我們現在在做後續艦的剛開始在第一個年度我們會持續的針對著相關的建造跟後續的測試還有相關的裝備我們會做一個合理的估算\n所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎?抱怨就是 這個我們會審慎繼續來評估目前是啊 所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啦預算會不會再追加第一個是原型件他跟我說不會嘛我相信他嘛後續的會不會再追加是我的第二個問題我想後續件要依照這個建造跟測試實際狀況跟經驗我們來我們就來看\n海昆號之前去乾屋裡面做測試嘛乾屋測試9月2號出屋了嘛到目前為止有沒有出現什麼問題針對潛航的測試下一個階段的潛航的測試什麼時候要進行\n我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了現在主要就是兩個測試有有有 那個報告我都有看所以我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試我們現在還在進行調校當中是 要調校多久我們當然是希望11月能夠進行一個相關的一個再進行扶航測試11月 有信心嗎我們\n按照現在這個狀況來講我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行赴航測試可以11月測試嗎沒有啦我必須要說啦雖然是在野黨的立委但是作為台灣的一份子我們花了這麼多的心神花了這麼多的時間投入了精力去做潛艦國造我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣大家都希望成功\n沒有人希望他失敗但是我們希望他成功的同時這不是只有主觀的期待而已啊外界所提出來的一些質疑我們作為立法委員就是必須要關心是不是真的能夠如期的成功因為事實上整個的時程本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差那不是不相信你們\n我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗來去擔心未來可能會出現的問題這個就牽涉到下一個我們的原型件我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的六個小功率引擎然後後續件會改成德國MTU公司的引擎這個資訊正確嗎\n抱怨這個資訊牽扯到商情跟後續的獲得我們建議不在這邊做好沒有關係啦你這樣說我尊重但我之所以會這樣問這都是我從公開的資訊整理出來的結果那我從公開的資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後我當然我自己不會見錢水艇啊我也不是這方面的專家那我就要去請教專家嘛\n那專家給我的feedback提醒我們要注意的事情是說如果原型件假設啦如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的是瑞典那家公司的六個小公寓引擎\n後續見因為有六個小公立引擎我無意去批評這家瑞典公司但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了啦完全不合格 完全不合格那媒體這樣的批評有道理沒有道理我們事後都可以再檢視你符不符合作戰的需求嘛\n那但是現在如果後續件改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好所以才要改那現在有個問題是原型件跟後續件我們當初投入這麼大的資源做原型件就是希望它的規格相關的配備可以作為後續件一個非常重要的前道但是如果\n連主機的引擎一個六個一個兩個不同的廠牌然後裡面的設計相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接\n截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點這樣子的問題有沒有道理還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情目前國防部已經了然於胸後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題\n今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場這些質疑有沒有道理我再強調一次後續都有時間可以檢驗請說明\n呃 跟委員報告 呃 針對後續艦的不管是在構型或是其他的裝備的選取我們都會透過 本來就是會在一個選商的一個機制都會符合這個作戰的需求還有它後續的可能遇到的一個 對不起你沒有回答我的問題啊是 那跟委員報告就是說我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係還是原型艦蓋原型艦的 後續艦蓋後續艦的兩個沒有什麼關係\n要說明的就是說這些我們都有審慎評估也會覺得您我們如果說是必要的這個構型的或是必要的調整都在原先的作戰需求的設計規範裡面也都是符合他作戰需求所以我就說你還是沒有回答我的問題啊我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦為什麼原型艦要海撤成功後面才要解凍就第一艘成功了嘛長這個樣子沒有問題了嘛\n那後面的部分所以我們同意解凍嘛但今天聽你給我對我問題的回覆似乎是說你們心裡好像也有準備後續線長的也跟原型線會不太一樣是嗎\n後續件長的跟原型件會不太一樣怪表構型跟流線是一樣作戰需求不會調整至於有些動力部分調整跟剛才委員所以動力的部分是會調整嗎依照這個地方我們不做再進行討論因為這個涉及到商員跟其他有關的沒有關係啊我再講一次我們的基本立場\n我希望潛艦國造可以成功背負了非常多國人的期待也投入了相當多的資源但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了在這件事情上面我們國會真的有必要後續未來也會加強監督的力道好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:02.410\n部長好針對潛電國造台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們向來所抱持的政策立場是支持\n\n00:22.082 --> 00:48.376\n那因為支持所以在去年處理相關預算的時候我們除了要求在原型艦海策成功之前先凍結8艘50%的預算也就是有4艘的錢完全可以都同意那其他的我們並沒有做太強就是強度太強的監督\n\n00:50.869 --> 01:04.674\n理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做希望給我們國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵多一點的空間讓他們去做所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場\n\n01:06.175 --> 01:34.629\n不過最近過去這段時間所發生的一些事情讓我們不得不重新的去思考重新的去調整重新的去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情因為有非常多的國人提出質疑的事情是我們第一艘的原型艦我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少\n\n01:36.926 --> 02:04.280\n海軍參謀長報告因為意見是493億493億同一個時期日本的艙金號你知不知道他們的預算是多少報員有掌握到媒體上面大概是151到170億之間中間的價差是我們做的是等級比較高比較厲害潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良嗎\n\n02:06.252 --> 02:12.622\n三倍以上三倍以上的價格具體的原因是什麼日本做150億我們做193億委員報告他這個裡面\n\n02:21.681 --> 02:22.041\n你說的是日本嗎?\n\n02:46.987 --> 03:06.044\n剛剛不是說493億嗎那個要加上那個廠房的建造因為是第一艘嘛所以還有海軍的武器款那沒有關係還是比人家貴兩倍以上所以我現在問的事情是我們現在做的首艘的原型艦是潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良理由是什麼\n\n03:07.077 --> 03:32.448\n我想因為第一艘的這個潛艦的一個製造跟日本說自製這個潛艦他們這麼早就起源甚早了他們這個傳統的鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術所以他們一直有在持續建造當中可以大幅的降低建造的成本第一艘\n\n03:33.707 --> 03:55.324\n給比較多的預算比較大的空間我剛剛跟部長說明過台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的所以過去我們沒有多說什麼但是最近發生的一些事情我們一個一個來看去年我看法定預算你們本來今年是要編9億多\n\n03:58.615 --> 04:22.319\n那今年所提出來的預算書我拜讀了預算書以後是依照本部114年就是今年8月4號國海紀管制的那個令核定那核定的預算只有1億4560萬那大幅減少了8億多的金額理由是什麼\n\n04:26.711 --> 04:53.977\n跟委員報告那今年本來原型間編的是9億但是因為這個魚雷的部分它有延遲的分批交運所以我們把扣掉的這個魚雷款要往因為沒有交運我們也就沒有付所以今年扣掉7.7億是我們今年實際上編列的1.4億全部都是魚雷的是的然後跟7月3號扶航測試的結果沒有關係沒有關係完全沒有關係嗎是的好\n\n04:55.134 --> 05:10.110\n我們接下來再來看上個禮拜媒體披露說海昆號一出港就勝水台船發了聲明嚴厲的駁斥說絕對沒有這樣的事情請問有沒有這樣的事情\n\n05:14.475 --> 05:32.530\n報委員沒有這件事情完全沒有這樣的事情是的所以呢現在這個海昆號如果出航如果進行潛航的話會不會出現聖水的狀況你們現在有掌握嗎報委員不會有這個狀況目前都絕對不會有這樣的狀況\n\n05:33.667 --> 05:57.928\n我們一定會是達到安全跟無魚子的狀況下來沒有關係我今天只要一個清楚的答案一個清楚的承諾事後會不會有這樣的狀況我們留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗因為我不喜歡臆測啦媒體這樣子寫有人提出這樣的質疑從台船的立場來看台船一定說沒有嗎\n\n05:58.973 --> 06:19.008\n因為他要做這個生意他要繼續做嘛那但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力已經有很多雜音出來了啦那所以我希望國防部也好海軍也好有你們的立場清楚的表明讓國人安心啊因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫啊\n\n06:20.589 --> 06:36.954\n有潛艦巡商經驗的前海軍上校黃振輝他也很擔心我們現在這個原型艦接下來會不會時程不斷延後預算無止境的追加所以你們現在編的預算第一艘要497億498億按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠\n\n06:44.015 --> 07:11.047\n抱怨現在第一艘目前的部分這個在人力部分台船花了比較多的這個人力的一個沒有啦所以我就問你錢夠不夠啊預算會不會再追加第一艘目前沒有第一艘不會你的意思是後期艘會嗎後續艘現在預算書表我們現在在做後續艦的剛開始在第一個年度我們會持續的針對著相關的建造跟後續的測試還有相關的裝備我們會做一個合理的估算\n\n07:11.960 --> 07:35.235\n所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎?抱怨就是這個我們會審慎繼續來評估目前是啊所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啦預算會不會再追加第一個是原型件他跟我說不會嘛我相信他嘛後續的會不會再追加是我的第二個問題我想後續件要依照這個建造跟測試實際狀況跟經驗我們來我們就來看\n\n07:40.387 --> 07:51.111\n海昆號之前去乾屋裡面做測試嘛乾屋測試9月2號出屋了嘛到目前為止有沒有出現什麼問題針對潛航的測試下一個階段的潛航的測試什麼時候要進行\n\n07:59.681 --> 08:21.475\n我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了現在主要就是兩個測試有有有那個報告我都有看所以我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試我們現在還在進行調校當中是要調校多久我們當然是希望11月能夠進行一個相關的一個再進行扶航測試11月有信心嗎我們\n\n08:25.391 --> 08:50.086\n按照現在這個狀況來講我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行赴航測試可以11月測試嗎沒有啦我必須要說啦雖然是在野黨的立委但是作為台灣的一份子我們花了這麼多的心神花了這麼多的時間投入了精力去做潛艦國造我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣大家都希望成功\n\n08:51.027 --> 09:19.062\n沒有人希望他失敗但是我們希望他成功的同時這不是只有主觀的期待而已啊外界所提出來的一些質疑我們作為立法委員就是必須要關心是不是真的能夠如期的成功因為事實上整個的時程本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差那不是不相信你們\n\n09:20.100 --> 09:42.115\n我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗來去擔心未來可能會出現的問題這個就牽涉到下一個我們的原型件我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的六個小功率引擎然後後續件會改成德國MTU公司的引擎這個資訊正確嗎\n\n09:45.050 --> 10:11.392\n抱怨這個資訊牽扯到商情跟後續的獲得我們建議不在這邊做好沒有關係啦你這樣說我尊重但我之所以會這樣問這都是我從公開的資訊整理出來的結果那我從公開的資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後我當然我自己不會見錢水艇啊我也不是這方面的專家那我就要去請教專家嘛\n\n10:12.506 --> 10:28.812\n那專家給我的feedback提醒我們要注意的事情是說如果原型件假設啦如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的是瑞典那家公司的六個小公寓引擎\n\n10:30.115 --> 10:50.123\n後續見因為有六個小公立引擎我無意去批評這家瑞典公司但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了啦完全不合格完全不合格那媒體這樣的批評有道理沒有道理我們事後都可以再檢視你符不符合作戰的需求嘛\n\n10:50.984 --> 11:13.465\n那但是現在如果後續件改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好所以才要改那現在有個問題是原型件跟後續件我們當初投入這麼大的資源做原型件就是希望它的規格相關的配備可以作為後續件一個非常重要的前道但是如果\n\n11:14.731 --> 11:27.265\n連主機的引擎一個六個一個兩個不同的廠牌然後裡面的設計相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接\n\n11:29.335 --> 11:51.164\n截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點這樣子的問題有沒有道理還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情目前國防部已經了然於胸後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題\n\n11:52.384 --> 12:01.748\n今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場這些質疑有沒有道理我再強調一次後續都有時間可以檢驗請說明\n\n12:05.671 --> 12:23.459\n呃跟委員報告呃針對後續艦的不管是在構型或是其他的裝備的選取我們都會透過本來就是會在一個選商的一個機制都會符合這個作戰的需求還有它後續的可能遇到的一個對不起你沒有回答我的問題啊是那跟委員報告就是說我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係還是原型艦蓋原型艦的後續艦蓋後續艦的兩個沒有什麼關係\n\n12:30.062 --> 12:56.473\n要說明的就是說這些我們都有審慎評估也會覺得您我們如果說是必要的這個構型的或是必要的調整都在原先的作戰需求的設計規範裡面也都是符合他作戰需求所以我就說你還是沒有回答我的問題啊我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦為什麼原型艦要海撤成功後面才要解凍就第一艘成功了嘛長這個樣子沒有問題了嘛\n\n12:59.008 --> 13:13.661\n那後面的部分所以我們同意解凍嘛但今天聽你給我對我問題的回覆似乎是說你們心裡好像也有準備後續線長的也跟原型線會不太一樣是嗎\n\n13:15.914 --> 13:34.073\n後續件長的跟原型件會不太一樣怪表構型跟流線是一樣作戰需求不會調整至於有些動力部分調整跟剛才委員所以動力的部分是會調整嗎依照這個地方我們不做再進行討論因為這個涉及到商員跟其他有關的沒有關係啊我再講一次我們的基本立場\n\n13:35.074 --> 13:54.621\n我希望潛艦國造可以成功背負了非常多國人的期待也投入了相當多的資源但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了在這件事情上面我們國會真的有必要後續未來也會加強監督的力道好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":2.41,"text":"部長好針對潛電國造台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們向來所抱持的政策立場是支持"},{"start":22.082,"end":48.376,"text":"那因為支持所以在去年處理相關預算的時候我們除了要求在原型艦海策成功之前先凍結8艘50%的預算也就是有4艘的錢完全可以都同意那其他的我們並沒有做太強就是強度太強的監督"},{"start":50.869,"end":64.674,"text":"理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做希望給我們國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵多一點的空間讓他們去做所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場"},{"start":66.175,"end":94.629,"text":"不過最近過去這段時間所發生的一些事情讓我們不得不重新的去思考重新的去調整重新的去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情因為有非常多的國人提出質疑的事情是我們第一艘的原型艦我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少"},{"start":96.926,"end":124.28,"text":"海軍參謀長報告 因為意見是493億493億 同一個時期 日本的艙金號你知不知道他們的預算是多少報員 有掌握到媒體上面大概是151到170億之間中間的價差是 我們做的是等級比較高 比較厲害潛的比較深 開的比較快 武器比較精良嗎"},{"start":126.252,"end":132.622,"text":"三倍以上三倍以上的價格具體的原因是什麼 日本做150億我們做193億委員報告 他這個裡面"},{"start":141.681,"end":142.041,"text":"你說的是日本嗎?"},{"start":166.987,"end":186.044,"text":"剛剛不是說493億嗎那個要加上那個廠房的建造因為是第一艘嘛所以還有海軍的武器款那沒有關係還是比人家貴兩倍以上所以我現在問的事情是我們現在做的首艘的原型艦是潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良理由是什麼"},{"start":187.077,"end":212.448,"text":"我想因為第一艘的這個潛艦的一個製造跟日本說自製這個潛艦他們這麼早就起源甚早了他們這個傳統的鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術所以他們一直有在持續建造當中可以大幅的降低建造的成本第一艘"},{"start":213.707,"end":235.324,"text":"給比較多的預算比較大的空間我剛剛跟部長說明過台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的所以過去我們沒有多說什麼但是最近發生的一些事情我們一個一個來看去年我看法定預算你們本來今年是要編9億多"},{"start":238.615,"end":262.319,"text":"那今年所提出來的預算書我拜讀了預算書以後是依照本部114年就是今年8月4號國海紀管制的那個令核定那核定的預算只有1億4560萬那大幅減少了8億多的金額理由是什麼"},{"start":266.711,"end":293.977,"text":"跟委員報告那今年本來原型間編的是9億但是因為這個魚雷的部分它有延遲的分批交運所以我們把扣掉的這個魚雷款要往因為沒有交運我們也就沒有付所以今年扣掉7.7億是我們今年實際上編列的1.4億全部都是魚雷的是的然後跟7月3號扶航測試的結果沒有關係沒有關係完全沒有關係嗎是的好"},{"start":295.134,"end":310.11,"text":"我們接下來再來看上個禮拜媒體披露說海昆號一出港就勝水台船發了聲明嚴厲的駁斥說絕對沒有這樣的事情請問有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":314.475,"end":332.53,"text":"報委員沒有這件事情完全沒有這樣的事情是的所以呢現在這個海昆號如果出航如果進行潛航的話會不會出現聖水的狀況你們現在有掌握嗎報委員不會有這個狀況目前都絕對不會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":333.667,"end":357.928,"text":"我們一定會是達到安全跟無魚子的狀況下來沒有關係 我今天只要一個清楚的答案一個清楚的承諾事後會不會有這樣的狀況我們留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗因為我不喜歡臆測啦媒體這樣子寫 有人提出這樣的質疑從台船的立場來看 台船一定說沒有嗎"},{"start":358.973,"end":379.008,"text":"因為他要做這個生意他要繼續做嘛那但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力已經有很多雜音出來了啦那所以我希望國防部也好海軍也好有你們的立場清楚的表明讓國人安心啊因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫啊"},{"start":380.589,"end":396.954,"text":"有潛艦巡商經驗的前海軍上校黃振輝他也很擔心我們現在這個原型艦接下來會不會時程不斷延後預算無止境的追加所以你們現在編的預算第一艘要497億498億按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠"},{"start":404.015,"end":431.047,"text":"抱怨現在第一艘目前的部分這個在人力部分台船花了比較多的這個人力的一個沒有啦所以我就問你錢夠不夠啊預算會不會再追加第一艘目前沒有第一艘不會你的意思是後期艘會嗎後續艘現在預算書表我們現在在做後續艦的剛開始在第一個年度我們會持續的針對著相關的建造跟後續的測試還有相關的裝備我們會做一個合理的估算"},{"start":431.96,"end":455.235,"text":"所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎?抱怨就是 這個我們會審慎繼續來評估目前是啊 所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啦預算會不會再追加第一個是原型件他跟我說不會嘛我相信他嘛後續的會不會再追加是我的第二個問題我想後續件要依照這個建造跟測試實際狀況跟經驗我們來我們就來看"},{"start":460.387,"end":471.111,"text":"海昆號之前去乾屋裡面做測試嘛乾屋測試9月2號出屋了嘛到目前為止有沒有出現什麼問題針對潛航的測試下一個階段的潛航的測試什麼時候要進行"},{"start":479.681,"end":501.475,"text":"我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了現在主要就是兩個測試有有有 那個報告我都有看所以我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試我們現在還在進行調校當中是 要調校多久我們當然是希望11月能夠進行一個相關的一個再進行扶航測試11月 有信心嗎我們"},{"start":505.391,"end":530.086,"text":"按照現在這個狀況來講我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行赴航測試可以11月測試嗎沒有啦我必須要說啦雖然是在野黨的立委但是作為台灣的一份子我們花了這麼多的心神花了這麼多的時間投入了精力去做潛艦國造我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣大家都希望成功"},{"start":531.027,"end":559.062,"text":"沒有人希望他失敗但是我們希望他成功的同時這不是只有主觀的期待而已啊外界所提出來的一些質疑我們作為立法委員就是必須要關心是不是真的能夠如期的成功因為事實上整個的時程本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差那不是不相信你們"},{"start":560.1,"end":582.115,"text":"我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗來去擔心未來可能會出現的問題這個就牽涉到下一個我們的原型件我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的六個小功率引擎然後後續件會改成德國MTU公司的引擎這個資訊正確嗎"},{"start":585.05,"end":611.392,"text":"抱怨這個資訊牽扯到商情跟後續的獲得我們建議不在這邊做好沒有關係啦你這樣說我尊重但我之所以會這樣問這都是我從公開的資訊整理出來的結果那我從公開的資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後我當然我自己不會見錢水艇啊我也不是這方面的專家那我就要去請教專家嘛"},{"start":612.506,"end":628.812,"text":"那專家給我的feedback提醒我們要注意的事情是說如果原型件假設啦如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的是瑞典那家公司的六個小公寓引擎"},{"start":630.115,"end":650.123,"text":"後續見因為有六個小公立引擎我無意去批評這家瑞典公司但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了啦完全不合格 完全不合格那媒體這樣的批評有道理沒有道理我們事後都可以再檢視你符不符合作戰的需求嘛"},{"start":650.984,"end":673.465,"text":"那但是現在如果後續件改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好所以才要改那現在有個問題是原型件跟後續件我們當初投入這麼大的資源做原型件就是希望它的規格相關的配備可以作為後續件一個非常重要的前道但是如果"},{"start":674.731,"end":687.265,"text":"連主機的引擎一個六個一個兩個不同的廠牌然後裡面的設計相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接"},{"start":689.335,"end":711.164,"text":"截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點這樣子的問題有沒有道理還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情目前國防部已經了然於胸後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題"},{"start":712.384,"end":721.748,"text":"今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場這些質疑有沒有道理我再強調一次後續都有時間可以檢驗請說明"},{"start":725.671,"end":743.459,"text":"呃 跟委員報告 呃 針對後續艦的不管是在構型或是其他的裝備的選取我們都會透過 本來就是會在一個選商的一個機制都會符合這個作戰的需求還有它後續的可能遇到的一個 對不起你沒有回答我的問題啊是 那跟委員報告就是說我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係還是原型艦蓋原型艦的 後續艦蓋後續艦的兩個沒有什麼關係"},{"start":750.062,"end":776.473,"text":"要說明的就是說這些我們都有審慎評估也會覺得您我們如果說是必要的這個構型的或是必要的調整都在原先的作戰需求的設計規範裡面也都是符合他作戰需求所以我就說你還是沒有回答我的問題啊我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦為什麼原型艦要海撤成功後面才要解凍就第一艘成功了嘛長這個樣子沒有問題了嘛"},{"start":779.008,"end":793.661,"text":"那後面的部分所以我們同意解凍嘛但今天聽你給我對我問題的回覆似乎是說你們心裡好像也有準備後續線長的也跟原型線會不太一樣是嗎"},{"start":795.914,"end":814.073,"text":"後續件長的跟原型件會不太一樣怪表構型跟流線是一樣作戰需求不會調整至於有些動力部分調整跟剛才委員所以動力的部分是會調整嗎依照這個地方我們不做再進行討論因為這個涉及到商員跟其他有關的沒有關係啊我再講一次我們的基本立場"},{"start":815.074,"end":834.621,"text":"我希望潛艦國造可以成功背負了非常多國人的期待也投入了相當多的資源但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了在這件事情上面我們國會真的有必要後續未來也會加強監督的力道好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時43分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。針對潛艦國造，我們台灣民眾黨立法院黨團向來所抱持的立場是支持，因為支持，所以在去年處理相關預算的時候，我們除了要求在原型艦海測成功之前，先凍結8艘50%的預算，也就是有4艘的錢完全都同意，其他的我們並沒有做強度太強的監督，理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做，希望給國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵、多一點的空間讓他們去做，所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場。不過，過去這段時間所發生的一些事情，讓我們不得不重新去思考、重新去調整、重新去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情。因為有非常多國人提出質疑的事情是，第一艘原型艦，我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。海軍參謀長報告，原型艦是493億。"],["黃委員國昌：493億？"],["黃司長文啓：是。"],["黃委員國昌：同一個時期，日本的蒼鯨號，你知不知道他們的預算是多少？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，有掌握到媒體上面大概是150億到170億之間。"],["黃委員國昌：中間的價差是？我們做的是等級比較高、比較厲害、潛得比較深、開得比較快、武器比較精良嗎？三倍以上，三倍以上的價格！具體的原因是什麼？日本做150億，我們做193億。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這個裡面有包括設施的建造，包括相關這些部分，然後還有海軍武器款的部分，建造成本的部分，人力、物料跟造建的部分，大概加起來是368……"],["黃委員國昌：你說的是日本嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛不是說493億嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：那個要加上廠房的建造，因為是第一艘，所以還有海軍的武器款。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，還是比人家貴兩倍以上，所以我現在問的事情是，我們現在做的首艘原型艦是潛得比較深、開得比較快、武器比較精良嗎？理由是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我想因為第一艘潛艦的製造跟日本自製潛艦相比，他們起源甚早，在他們傳統鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下，他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術，所以他們一直有在持續建造……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。"],["顧部長立雄：所以可以大幅降低建造的成本。"],["黃委員國昌：現在第一艘給比較多的預算、比較大的空間，我剛剛跟部長說明過，台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的，所以過去我們沒有多說什麼，但是最近發生的一些事情，我們一個一個來看。去年我看法定預算，你們本來今年是要編九億多，今年所提出來的預算書，我拜讀了預算書以後，依照本部114年（今年）8月4號國海計管字令核定，核定的預算只有1億4,560萬，大幅減少了八億多的金額，理由是什麼？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，今年本來原型艦編的是9億，但是因為魚雷的部分有延遲分批交運，魚雷款沒有交運，也就沒有付，所以今年扣掉7.7億，實際上編列1.4億。"],["黃委員國昌：全部都是魚雷的？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：跟7月3號浮航測試的結果沒有關係？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：沒有關係。"],["黃委員國昌：完全沒有關係？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，接下來再來看，上個禮拜媒體披露說，海鯤號一出港就滲水，台船發了聲明嚴厲地駁斥，說絕對沒有這樣的事情，請問有沒有這樣的事情？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，沒有這件事情！"],["黃委員國昌：完全沒有這樣的事情？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在海鯤號如果出航，如果進行潛航的話，會不會出現滲水的狀況，你們現在有掌握嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，不會有這個狀況，目前都……"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不會有這樣的狀況？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們一定會是達到安全無虞的狀況下來實施。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我今天只要一個清楚的答案、一個清楚的承諾，事後會不會有這樣的狀況，留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗，因為我不喜歡臆測，媒體這樣子寫，有人提出這樣的質疑，從台船的立場來看，台船一定說沒有，因為他要做生意，他要繼續做嘛！但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力，已經有很多雜音出來了，所以我希望國防部也好、海軍也好，由你們的立場清楚表明，讓國人安心，因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫。有潛艦尋商經驗的前海軍上校黃征輝，他也很擔心原型艦在接下來會不會時程不斷延後，預算無止境地追加。你們現在編的預算，第一艘要497億、498億，按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，第一艘目前在人力部分，台船花了比較多人力的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，我就問你錢夠不夠，預算會不會再追加？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：第一艘目前沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：第一艘不會，你的意思是後七艘會嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：後續七艘現在預算書表在做後續艦剛開始的第一個年度，會持續針對相關建造跟後續的測試，還有相關的裝備，我們會做一個合理的估算。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們會審慎繼續來評估目前……"],["黃委員國昌：是啦，但是你還是沒有回答我的問題，預算會不會再追加？"],["顧部長立雄：你說原型艦還是？"],["黃委員國昌：第一個是原型艦，他跟我說不會，我相信他；後續的會不會再追加，是我的第二個問題。"],["顧部長立雄：我想後續艦要依照建造跟測試的狀況跟經驗，我們來預估。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就來看。海鯤號之前去乾塢裡面做測試，乾塢測試9月2號出塢了，到目前為止，有沒有出現什麼問題？針對潛航的測試，下一個階段潛航的測試什麼時候要進行？"],["顧部長立雄：我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了，現在主要就是兩個測試。"],["黃委員國昌：有、有、有，那個報告我都有看，我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試？"],["顧部長立雄：現在還在進行調校當中。"],["黃委員國昌：是，要調校多久？"],["顧部長立雄：當然是希望11月能夠再進行浮航測試。"],["黃委員國昌：11月，有信心嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：按照現在狀況來講，我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行浮航測試。"],["黃委員國昌：可以在11月測試嘛！沒有啦，我必須要說，雖然是在野黨的立委，但是作為臺灣的一份子，我們花了這麼多的心神、花了這麼多的時間投入精力去做潛艦國造，我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣，大家都希望成功，沒有人希望它失敗，但是希望它成功的同時，這不是只有主觀的期待而已，外界所提出來的一些質疑，作為立法委員就是必須要關心，是不是真的能夠如期成功？因為事實上整個時程，本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程，彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差，這不是不相信你們，我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗，去擔心未來可能會出現的問題，這就牽涉到下一個問題。","我們的原型艦，我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的6個小功率引擎，然後後續艦會改成德國MTU公司的引擎，這個資訊正確嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告報員，這個資訊牽扯到商情跟後續的獲得，我們建議不在這邊公開。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，你這樣說我尊重，但我之所以會這樣問，這都是我從公開資訊整理出來的結果，我從公開資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後，當然我自己不會建潛水艇，我也不是這方面的專家，我就要去請教專家，專家給我的feedback，提醒我們要注意的事情是，如果原型艦，假設啦！如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的，是瑞典家那家公司的6個小功率引擎，後續艦……有關6個小功率引擎，我無意去批評這家瑞典公司，但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了，完全不合格！媒體這樣的批評有道理、沒有道理，事後都可以再檢示符不符合作戰的需求。現在如果後續艦改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好，所以才要改，但現在有個問題是，原型艦跟後續艦，當初投入這麼大的資源做原型艦就是希望它的規格、相關配備可以作為後續艦一個非常重要的前導。如果主機的引擎一個是6個、一個是2個，不同的廠牌，然後裡面的設計、相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話，截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接？現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家，他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點，這樣子的問題有沒有道理？還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情，目前國防部已經了然於胸，後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題？今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場，這些質疑有沒有道理，我再強調一次，後續都有時間可以檢驗。請說明。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，針對後續艦不管在構型或是其他裝備的選取，我們本來在選商的機制都會符合作戰的需求，還有它後續可能遇到一個更好的……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你沒有回答我的問題。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係？還是原型艦蓋原型艦的、後續艦蓋後續艦的，兩個沒有什麼關係？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：要說明的就是，這些我們都有審慎評估，如果必要的構型或是必要的調整，都在原先作戰需求的設計規範裡面，也都是符合它的作戰需求。"],["黃委員國昌：你還是沒有回答我的問題，我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦，為什麼原型艦要海測成功，後面才要解凍就是第一艘成功了，長這個樣子沒有問題了，後面的部分，所以我們同意解凍，但今天聽你對我問題的回復，似乎你們心理好像也有準備，後續艦會長得跟原型艦不太一樣，是嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：外表構型跟流線是一樣，作戰需求不會調整。至於有些動力部分調整，跟剛才委員所提的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以動力的部分是會調整嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：在這個地方，我們不再進一步討論，因為這個涉及到商源跟其他有關的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我再講一次我們的基本立場，我希望潛艦國造可以成功，背負了非常多國人的期待，也投入了相當多的資源，但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了。在這件事情上面，我們國會真的有必要，後續未來也會加強監督的力道，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有葉元之委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報；委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，請國防部2週內以書面答復，委員有約定期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-11","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃國昌","葉元之"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-11-03"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處\n作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00012"}}}