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{\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 204.63, \"end\": 205.47, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 205.47, \"end\": 205.771, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 205.771, \"end\": 206.071, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"歸\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 206.071, \"end\": 206.451, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 206.451, \"end\": 206.792, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 206.792, \"end\": 207.292, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 207.292, \"end\": 207.532, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 207.532, \"end\": 208.253, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 208.253, \"end\": 208.733, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 208.733, \"end\": 209.214, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 209.214, \"end\": 209.774, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 209.774, \"end\": 210.115, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 216.1, \"end\": 216.56, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 216.56, \"end\": 216.78, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 216.78, \"end\": 216.8, \"score\": 0.993}]}, {\"start\": 217.521, \"end\": 239.291, \"text\": \"而但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在動審之後經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府而省府每年應該要給原鄉的9億的農路還有19億的鄉道養護的預算行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補儲款下放給地方政府\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 217.521, \"end\": 217.661, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 217.661, \"end\": 217.921, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 217.921, \"end\": 218.481, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 218.481, \"end\": 218.662, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 218.662, \"end\": 219.082, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 219.082, \"end\": 219.202, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 219.202, \"end\": 219.542, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"礎\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 919.374, \"end\": 919.494, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 919.494, \"end\": 919.694, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 919.694, \"end\": 920.395, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 920.395, \"end\": 920.875, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 920.875, \"end\": 921.056, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 921.056, \"end\": 921.156, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 921.156, \"end\": 921.356, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 921.356, \"end\": 921.536, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 921.536, \"end\": 921.936, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 921.936, \"end\": 922.097, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 922.097, \"end\": 923.118, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"和\", \"start\": 923.118, \"end\": 923.318, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"柯\", \"start\": 923.318, \"end\": 923.498, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 923.498, \"end\": 923.899, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 923.899, \"end\": 924.039, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 924.039, \"end\": 924.319, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 924.319, \"end\": 924.459, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 924.459, \"end\": 924.619, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 924.619, \"end\": 924.739, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 924.739, \"end\": 924.96, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 924.96, \"end\": 925.22, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 925.22, \"end\": 925.48, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 925.48, \"end\": 925.66, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 925.66, \"end\": 925.68, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,038 --> 00:00:11,831\n謝謝主席我們有請卓院長還有園民會曾主委謝謝卓院長還有曾主委\n\n2\n00:00:22,794 --> 00:00:45,625\n我今天要想跟你們談的是新版的財化法通過之後統籌分配稅款增加到8841億元這是地方財政改革的一大進步但是在行政院修訂補助辦法改變了一般性補助款的定義之後一切都變了掉了\n\n3\n00:00:46,185 --> 00:01:14,168\n今天我要指出的是修法後的一般性補助款的執行管理的機制我覺得非常的鬆散這會讓弱小的部會還有弱勢的地區會被限制邊緣化而今天我談的最典型的例子就是園民會跟55個園鄉今天我就以園民會你們明年度所編列的所謂的一般性補助款來就教曾竺偉\n\n4\n00:01:15,616 --> 00:01:18,167\n圓明會在明年的預算裡面首次\n\n5\n00:01:19,822 --> 00:01:45,093\n編列了一般性補助款25.99億元然而這25.99億元卻不是園民會你們新增的預算是從過去園民會的所謂的計劃型補助還有公務預算編列的科目移過來的這包含了什麼基本設施維持費6.4億部落特色道路2.4億還有部落聯絡道路的養護經費0.8億\n\n6\n00:01:48,234 --> 00:02:02,215\n曾主委我想請教你請你簡短的說什麼是一般性補助款一般型補助款跟競爭型補助款是不一樣的就是一般型本來就是在補助各地方政府公所也好縣政府也好一般性的補助\n\n7\n00:02:02,981 --> 00:02:21,182\n好我講得更具體一點好了你們現在行政院今年修的一般性補助款的補助範圍限於具經常性普及性基本設施或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡這些項目對吧\n\n8\n00:02:21,782 --> 00:02:37,208\n一般性補助款撥到縣市政府之後怎麼使用我們中央控管的力道是有限的而縣市政府往往會因為施政的順序考量他會投入原鄉或者是偏鄉的預算就會變少\n\n9\n00:02:38,729 --> 00:03:02,977\n民國91年本席就任立法委員以後我開始針對原鄉長年遭到制度性的忽視治理體系的失靈的現象我在這裡提出我的質詢還有要求經過二十幾年的制度調整還有建立我們終於讓原民會在預算上變成了一個可以講說是正常的部會\n\n10\n00:03:03,917 --> 00:03:19,766\n而其中最核心的價值就是行政院讓園民會的預算可以例外處理在台灣省政府的年代園鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算還有執行的\n\n11\n00:03:20,626 --> 00:03:36,800\n原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局來主管原鄉的農路還有治山防洪這些工程歸農林廳的三地農牧局來管理\n\n12\n00:03:37,521 --> 00:03:59,291\n而但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在動審之後經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府而省府每年應該要給原鄉的9億的農路還有19億的鄉道養護的預算行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補儲款下放給地方政府\n\n13\n00:04:00,111 --> 00:04:22,520\n而這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算中央部會就不再編列了於是地方縣市政府拿到這些經費之後它會基於選票的考量預算往往不會投入到地廣人稀的原鄉再加上原來省屬單位的專業的人力也移撥到了中央\n\n14\n00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:34,836\n而地方政府在沒有人力沒有專業的狀況可以執行政策的時候呢這就造成了原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期\n\n15\n00:04:36,155 --> 00:05:02,397\n立法院在民國98年的預算審查的報告也非常明確的指出從民國90年起原屬省府專案的農路灌溉管路的改善經費改為一般性補助款由縣市政府來統籌而由於地方財政還有人力不足因此農路灌溉水路長年無法維修這是我們審預算的時候\n\n16\n00:05:03,159 --> 00:05:21,265\n審查報告明確的指出在98年的時候而當時的行政院長游錫昆他說了一句話他說地方能做的我們中央就不要做這句口號讓原鄉的政策空轉了五年我們回顧一下民國93年的七二水災還有愛麗風災\n\n17\n00:05:22,665 --> 00:05:48,615\n他重創了中北部的泰雅族地區特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣的尖石鄉還有桃園縣的復興區部落道路因為我們的農路還有動損之後連續五年沒有經費養護而這些在風災之中被摧毀殆盡因而阻斷了我們的族人的逃生還有\n\n18\n00:05:49,793 --> 00:06:10,115\n救灾的路线而石门水库集水区的国有林斑地更发生了大规模的土石崩塌这也造成了石门水库的淤积也造成了桃园地区连续停水了20天而当时的行政院就开始急救张推动了所谓的八年八百亿的水患治理特别条例\n\n19\n00:06:10,695 --> 00:06:29,615\n但是行政院的版本卻僅僅針對下游編列預算來整治它完全忽視了上中上游必須要整體治理最後在這裡經過本席的提案才終於甄編了上游跟的還有中游的\n\n20\n00:06:29,975 --> 00:06:48,542\n治傷防災每年20億8年是160億的經費來逐年解決了北泰亞部落還有其他原鄉的土石流的問題主委這就是原住民族面對所謂的一般性補助款帶來的血淋淋的教訓\n\n21\n00:06:49,881 --> 00:07:13,482\n我們沒有經常性的預算來改善原鄉的基礎設施只好用所謂的特別預算來重建部落主委您是資深的公務人員了動損之後原鄉我講的這些慘痛的經歷您也經歷過而現在你身為園民會的主委對於這個所謂的一般性的補助款您有什麼看法\n\n22\n00:07:14,275 --> 00:07:34,126\n我跟委員報告我們這個114年大概是32.38億那115年我們是編26億就差了6.3億這主要就是要配合中長城的公共建設計畫分配的額度那我們會調整補助那未來我們希望我們還要\n\n23\n00:07:35,546 --> 00:08:03,768\n還要再增提細題一些工界的計畫簡單講我們會再補題一些計畫少的6.3億我們會再補更重要一點就是這幾年來公所其實最迫切需要做的就是我們現在正在做重建的這些條例我們大概有40億的機會要用在原鄉重建條例他是有年限的\n\n24\n00:08:04,290 --> 00:08:08,650\n而且他是有地區性的好嗎謝謝您在這裡的補充說明\n\n25\n00:08:09,204 --> 00:08:36,474\n其實我聽不太清楚沒關係事後我會再請您來補充說明本席就任這立委的23年來其實我最重要的工作就是在重建動省之後原住民的政策還有我們的預算我記得我剛就任的時候也就是民國91年原民會為了要改善部落道路每年都要去跟公路總局低頭要經費預算從所謂的1億\n\n26\n00:08:37,634 --> 00:08:58,074\n或兩億不等沒有法定的預算科目也沒有執行的方案而部落的這些道路的建設就處在不確定的狀況之下有沒有經費可以做然後一直在不確定同時期部落的排水溝還有擋土牆這些基礎建設也是完全停擺的\n\n27\n00:08:59,008 --> 00:09:22,090\n也因為這麼樣子所以96年初呢在本席的陪同之下原住民族地區有55位鄉鎮市長到行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長在蘇院長的支持之下每年開始編列了5.9億的基本設施維持費直接撥付到鄉公所讓鄉公所他能夠維持最基本的\n\n28\n00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:43,141\n部落的基礎建設的運作而同樣在民國96年的時候也在這個地方北溪對面站著是已故的張俊雄院長我在這裡質詢他我們原住民的道路的預算非常的短缺當時的張院長他傾聽民意他也採納了我的建議\n\n29\n00:09:43,741 --> 00:10:01,646\n他立刻做了三點的決議交辦給行政院的各部會也請院長您聽一下第一個決議是96年將2.7億的道路預算保留延續執行第二個是97年除了編列9900萬的預算之外不足的部分\n\n30\n00:10:02,126 --> 00:10:19,976\n他承诺可以动用第二预备金来执行第三个是原乡的部落道路预算总需求是29.9亿97年开始要折成原民会以4年的中程计划30亿逐年来编列\n\n31\n00:10:21,107 --> 00:10:50,416\n解決需求的問題這就是張俊雄前院長令人非常尊敬跟敬佩的而部落的道路養護1.7億的預算怎麼來的呢也是本席在110年我站在這裡質詢當時是再一度做行政院長的蘇院長他在聽完我的質詢之後他也認為道路沒有養護的預算這非常的不公平也不合理\n\n32\n00:10:51,016 --> 00:11:08,021\n所以在110年核定的這一筆預算從112年起開始編列我以上講的這幾項重要的原住民的政策是本席跟歷任的行政院長透過質詢還有政策溝通我們為原鄉建立了預算的\n\n33\n00:11:08,681 --> 00:11:34,427\n例外處理情形為的是什麼為的是要保障原住民原民會的預算不受政治的干擾實質有效率的直接到達原住民部落在這裡我要再請教曾主委今年度的特色道路預算多少特色道路應該是跟去年差不多沒有沒有刪多少而且我們那個基本設施維持會那6億多都沒有刪掉\n\n34\n00:11:36,209 --> 00:11:52,291\n我提醒你今年的特色道路叫做計劃型的補助是6.9億而明年的你們叫做一般性補助2.4億少了4.5億我還再請教你部落聯絡道路的養護今年是多少錢\n\n35\n00:11:55,285 --> 00:12:08,041\n好你回答不出來沒關係今年你們叫做計劃型的補助1.7億而明年呢又叫做一般性的補助了0.8億這活生生少了0.9億\n\n36\n00:12:09,875 --> 00:12:39,355\n院長您看到的這個數據這是園民會明年道路的預算我們不管他是編列所謂的計劃型補助還是一般性補助我們的特色道路打了4折道路養護的預算打了5折我再怎麼加總園鄉的道路預算明年度就活活少了5億啊還有另外一件事情是明年一般性的補助款為什麼只有園民會跟客委會必須要有行政院你們主管\n\n37\n00:12:39,935 --> 00:12:42,349\n而其他的部會不用我請院長回答這兩個問題謝謝\n\n38\n00:12:44,212 --> 00:13:13,932\n第一個剛剛主委有提到過一些交通的建設未來中長期它是逐年發生的我們會在未來的一般性補充當中來編列預算所以明年看起來或許會有一些金額上的減少這是中長期的另外有一些是必須因為財政收入方法調整之後新修法之後中央跟地方必須就地方政府的財政集赤來做分擔有些部分是地方政府要去負擔的\n\n39\n00:13:14,672 --> 00:13:34,965\n這兩個部分跟委員先說明不過剛剛委員有提到一點你說當初省府的業務關於原住民撥給地方地方不願執行所以省府後來把這個業務都撥給中央了那如果這樣的話在財政收受法案法的時候就應該保留部分在中央但現在完全又跑到地方去了\n\n40\n00:13:35,373 --> 00:13:45,574\n院長我剛剛已經講到了變成一般性補助款的時候它會變成縣市政府的考量這是第一個第二個財政如果不好的話他們也不會放到\n\n41\n00:13:46,243 --> 00:14:13,839\n人少的地區這就是我二十幾年來在這邊跟歷任的行政院長爭取的部分所以你現在又回歸到給地方政府歷任行政院長在財化法的理念下是有這個財力的未來是沒有這個財力的必須要做例外來處理你如果再用一般性補助款給地方政府我們會少了非常多的狀況就是我剛剛以上提的\n\n42\n00:14:13,899 --> 00:14:32,457\n那我只是一句話請委員我們共同來支持未來行政院提出的才華版本我們才有版本就是我剛剛就把錢都給地方啦未來我就沒有辦法像張院長蘇院長性普及性基本建設或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡\n\n43\n00:14:33,378 --> 00:14:48,314\n請問一下縣市政府如果錢不夠的話他會把他的錢放在人少的偏鄉或原鄉地區嗎所以這不公平就會開始了縣長院長最後我要再提醒我今天不想跟你吵架我是在跟你談論\n\n44\n00:14:49,575 --> 00:15:06,764\n在整體原住民自治之前我們不管在預算或者是政策上我們都必須要例外來處理否則所謂的民主原則就是經費往人多的地方去而沒有財源的原鄉或者偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉所以錢要保留在中央\n\n45\n00:15:13,147 --> 00:15:25,680\n所以一般性補助款不適用於院在園民會第二個問題你沒有回答為什麼園民會的一般性補助款和柯委會就必須要行政院同意為什麼好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6038\t11831\t謝謝主席我們有請卓院長還有園民會曾主委謝謝卓院長還有曾主委\n22794\t45625\t我今天要想跟你們談的是新版的財化法通過之後統籌分配稅款增加到8841億元這是地方財政改革的一大進步但是在行政院修訂補助辦法改變了一般性補助款的定義之後一切都變了掉了\n46185\t74168\t今天我要指出的是修法後的一般性補助款的執行管理的機制我覺得非常的鬆散這會讓弱小的部會還有弱勢的地區會被限制邊緣化而今天我談的最典型的例子就是園民會跟55個園鄉今天我就以園民會你們明年度所編列的所謂的一般性補助款來就教曾竺偉\n75616\t78167\t圓明會在明年的預算裡面首次\n79822\t105093\t編列了一般性補助款25.99億元然而這25.99億元卻不是園民會你們新增的預算是從過去園民會的所謂的計劃型補助還有公務預算編列的科目移過來的這包含了什麼基本設施維持費6.4億部落特色道路2.4億還有部落聯絡道路的養護經費0.8億\n108234\t122215\t曾主委我想請教你請你簡短的說什麼是一般性補助款一般型補助款跟競爭型補助款是不一樣的就是一般型本來就是在補助各地方政府公所也好縣政府也好一般性的補助\n122981\t141182\t好 我講得更具體一點好了你們現在行政院今年修的一般性補助款的補助範圍限於具經常性 普及性 基本設施或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡這些項目 對吧\n141782\t157208\t一般性補助款撥到縣市政府之後怎麼使用我們中央控管的力道是有限的而縣市政府往往會因為施政的順序考量他會投入原鄉或者是偏鄉的預算就會變少\n158729\t182977\t民國91年本席就任立法委員以後我開始針對原鄉長年遭到制度性的忽視治理體系的失靈的現象我在這裡提出我的質詢還有要求經過二十幾年的制度調整還有建立我們終於讓原民會在預算上變成了一個可以講說是正常的部會\n183917\t199766\t而其中最核心的價值就是行政院讓園民會的預算可以例外處理在台灣省政府的年代園鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算還有執行的\n200626\t216800\t原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局來主管原鄉的農路還有治山防洪這些工程歸農林廳的三地農牧局來管理\n217521\t239291\t而但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在動審之後經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府而省府每年應該要給原鄉的9億的農路還有19億的鄉道養護的預算行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補儲款下放給地方政府\n240111\t262520\t而這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算中央部會就不再編列了於是地方縣市政府拿到這些經費之後它會基於選票的考量預算往往不會投入到地廣人稀的原鄉再加上原來省屬單位的專業的人力也移撥到了中央\n263300\t274836\t而地方政府在沒有人力沒有專業的狀況可以執行政策的時候呢這就造成了原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期\n276155\t302397\t立法院在民國98年的預算審查的報告也非常明確的指出從民國90年起原屬省府專案的農路灌溉管路的改善經費改為一般性補助款由縣市政府來統籌而由於地方財政還有人力不足因此農路灌溉水路長年無法維修這是我們審預算的時候\n303159\t321265\t審查報告明確的指出在98年的時候而當時的行政院長游錫昆他說了一句話他說地方能做的我們中央就不要做這句口號讓原鄉的政策空轉了五年我們回顧一下民國93年的七二水災還有愛麗風災\n322665\t348615\t他重創了中北部的泰雅族地區特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣的尖石鄉還有桃園縣的復興區部落道路因為我們的農路還有動損之後連續五年沒有經費養護而這些在風災之中被摧毀殆盡因而阻斷了我們的族人的逃生還有\n349793\t370115\t救灾的路线而石门水库集水区的国有林斑地更发生了大规模的土石崩塌这也造成了石门水库的淤积也造成了桃园地区连续停水了20天而当时的行政院就开始急救张推动了所谓的八年八百亿的水患治理特别条例\n370695\t389615\t但是行政院的版本卻僅僅針對下游編列預算來整治它完全忽視了上中上游必須要整體治理最後在這裡經過本席的提案才終於甄編了上游跟的還有中游的\n389975\t408542\t治傷防災每年20億8年是160億的經費來逐年解決了北泰亞部落還有其他原鄉的土石流的問題主委這就是原住民族面對所謂的一般性補助款帶來的血淋淋的教訓\n409881\t433482\t我們沒有經常性的預算來改善原鄉的基礎設施只好用所謂的特別預算來重建部落主委您是資深的公務人員了動損之後原鄉我講的這些慘痛的經歷您也經歷過而現在你身為園民會的主委對於這個所謂的一般性的補助款您有什麼看法\n434275\t454126\t我跟委員報告我們這個114年大概是32.38億那115年我們是編26億就差了6.3億這主要就是要配合中長城的公共建設計畫分配的額度那我們會調整補助那未來我們希望我們還要\n455546\t483768\t還要再增提細題一些工界的計畫簡單講我們會再補題一些計畫少的6.3億我們會再補更重要一點就是這幾年來公所其實最迫切需要做的就是我們現在正在做重建的這些條例我們大概有40億的機會要用在原鄉重建條例他是有年限的\n484290\t488650\t而且他是有地區性的好嗎謝謝您在這裡的補充說明\n489204\t516474\t其實我聽不太清楚沒關係事後我會再請您來補充說明本席就任這立委的23年來其實我最重要的工作就是在重建動省之後原住民的政策還有我們的預算我記得我剛就任的時候也就是民國91年原民會為了要改善部落道路每年都要去跟公路總局低頭要經費預算從所謂的1億\n517634\t538074\t或兩億不等沒有法定的預算科目也沒有執行的方案而部落的這些道路的建設就處在不確定的狀況之下有沒有經費可以做然後一直在不確定同時期部落的排水溝還有擋土牆這些基礎建設也是完全停擺的\n539008\t562090\t也因為這麼樣子所以96年初呢在本席的陪同之下原住民族地區有55位鄉鎮市長到行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長在蘇院長的支持之下每年開始編列了5.9億的基本設施維持費直接撥付到鄉公所讓鄉公所他能夠維持最基本的\n563430\t583141\t部落的基礎建設的運作而同樣在民國96年的時候也在這個地方北溪對面站著是已故的張俊雄院長我在這裡質詢他我們原住民的道路的預算非常的短缺當時的張院長他傾聽民意他也採納了我的建議\n583741\t601646\t他立刻做了三點的決議交辦給行政院的各部會也請院長您聽一下第一個決議是96年將2.7億的道路預算保留延續執行第二個是97年除了編列9900萬的預算之外不足的部分\n602126\t619976\t他承诺可以动用第二预备金来执行第三个是原乡的部落道路预算总需求是29.9亿97年开始要折成原民会以4年的中程计划30亿逐年来编列\n621107\t650416\t解決需求的問題這就是張俊雄前院長令人非常尊敬跟敬佩的而部落的道路養護1.7億的預算怎麼來的呢也是本席在110年我站在這裡質詢當時是再一度做行政院長的蘇院長他在聽完我的質詢之後他也認為道路沒有養護的預算這非常的不公平也不合理\n651016\t668021\t所以在110年核定的這一筆預算從112年起開始編列我以上講的這幾項重要的原住民的政策是本席跟歷任的行政院長透過質詢還有政策溝通我們為原鄉建立了預算的\n668681\t694427\t例外處理情形為的是什麼為的是要保障原住民原民會的預算不受政治的干擾實質有效率的直接到達原住民部落在這裡我要再請教曾主委今年度的特色道路預算多少特色道路應該是跟去年差不多沒有沒有刪多少而且我們那個基本設施維持會那6億多都沒有刪掉\n696209\t712291\t我提醒你今年的特色道路叫做計劃型的補助是6.9億而明年的你們叫做一般性補助2.4億少了4.5億我還再請教你部落聯絡道路的養護今年是多少錢\n715285\t728041\t好你回答不出來沒關係今年你們叫做計劃型的補助1.7億而明年呢又叫做一般性的補助了0.8億這活生生少了0.9億\n729875\t759355\t院長您看到的這個數據這是園民會明年道路的預算我們不管他是編列所謂的計劃型補助還是一般性補助我們的特色道路打了4折道路養護的預算打了5折我再怎麼加總園鄉的道路預算明年度就活活少了5億啊還有另外一件事情是明年一般性的補助款為什麼只有園民會跟客委會必須要有行政院你們主管\n759935\t762349\t而其他的部會不用我請院長回答這兩個問題謝謝\n764212\t793932\t第一個剛剛主委有提到過一些交通的建設未來中長期它是逐年發生的我們會在未來的一般性補充當中來編列預算所以明年看起來或許會有一些金額上的減少這是中長期的另外有一些是必須因為財政收入方法調整之後新修法之後中央跟地方必須就地方政府的財政集赤來做分擔有些部分是地方政府要去負擔的\n794672\t814965\t這兩個部分跟委員先說明不過剛剛委員有提到一點你說當初省府的業務關於原住民撥給地方 地方不願執行所以省府後來把這個業務都撥給中央了那如果這樣的話在財政收受法案法的時候就應該保留部分在中央但現在完全又跑到地方去了\n815373\t825574\t院長我剛剛已經講到了變成一般性補助款的時候它會變成縣市政府的考量這是第一個第二個財政如果不好的話他們也不會放到\n826243\t853839\t人少的地區這就是我二十幾年來在這邊跟歷任的行政院長爭取的部分所以你現在又回歸到給地方政府歷任行政院長在財化法的理念下是有這個財力的未來是沒有這個財力的必須要做例外來處理你如果再用一般性補助款給地方政府我們會少了非常多的狀況就是我剛剛以上提的\n853899\t872457\t那我只是一句話請委員我們共同來支持未來行政院提出的才華版本我們才有版本就是我剛剛就把錢都給地方啦未來我就沒有辦法像張院長蘇院長性普及性基本建設或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡\n873378\t888314\t請問一下 縣市政府如果錢不夠的話他會把他的錢放在人少的偏鄉或原鄉地區嗎所以這不公平就會開始了 縣長 院長 最後我要再提醒我今天不想跟你吵架 我是在跟你談論\n889575\t906764\t在整體原住民自治之前我們不管在預算或者是政策上我們都必須要例外來處理否則所謂的民主原則就是經費往人多的地方去而沒有財源的原鄉或者偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉所以錢要保留在中央\n913147\t925680\t所以一般性補助款不適用於院在園民會第二個問題你沒有回答為什麼園民會的一般性補助款和柯委會就必須要行政院同意為什麼好\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們有請卓院長還有園民會曾主委謝謝卓院長還有曾主委\n我今天要想跟你們談的是新版的財化法通過之後統籌分配稅款增加到8841億元這是地方財政改革的一大進步但是在行政院修訂補助辦法改變了一般性補助款的定義之後一切都變了掉了\n今天我要指出的是修法後的一般性補助款的執行管理的機制我覺得非常的鬆散這會讓弱小的部會還有弱勢的地區會被限制邊緣化而今天我談的最典型的例子就是園民會跟55個園鄉今天我就以園民會你們明年度所編列的所謂的一般性補助款來就教曾竺偉\n圓明會在明年的預算裡面首次\n編列了一般性補助款25.99億元然而這25.99億元卻不是園民會你們新增的預算是從過去園民會的所謂的計劃型補助還有公務預算編列的科目移過來的這包含了什麼基本設施維持費6.4億部落特色道路2.4億還有部落聯絡道路的養護經費0.8億\n曾主委我想請教你請你簡短的說什麼是一般性補助款一般型補助款跟競爭型補助款是不一樣的就是一般型本來就是在補助各地方政府公所也好縣政府也好一般性的補助\n好 我講得更具體一點好了你們現在行政院今年修的一般性補助款的補助範圍限於具經常性 普及性 基本設施或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡這些項目 對吧\n一般性補助款撥到縣市政府之後怎麼使用我們中央控管的力道是有限的而縣市政府往往會因為施政的順序考量他會投入原鄉或者是偏鄉的預算就會變少\n民國91年本席就任立法委員以後我開始針對原鄉長年遭到制度性的忽視治理體系的失靈的現象我在這裡提出我的質詢還有要求經過二十幾年的制度調整還有建立我們終於讓原民會在預算上變成了一個可以講說是正常的部會\n而其中最核心的價值就是行政院讓園民會的預算可以例外處理在台灣省政府的年代園鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算還有執行的\n原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局來主管原鄉的農路還有治山防洪這些工程歸農林廳的三地農牧局來管理\n而但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在動審之後經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府而省府每年應該要給原鄉的9億的農路還有19億的鄉道養護的預算行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補儲款下放給地方政府\n而這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算中央部會就不再編列了於是地方縣市政府拿到這些經費之後它會基於選票的考量預算往往不會投入到地廣人稀的原鄉再加上原來省屬單位的專業的人力也移撥到了中央\n而地方政府在沒有人力沒有專業的狀況可以執行政策的時候呢這就造成了原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期\n立法院在民國98年的預算審查的報告也非常明確的指出從民國90年起原屬省府專案的農路灌溉管路的改善經費改為一般性補助款由縣市政府來統籌而由於地方財政還有人力不足因此農路灌溉水路長年無法維修這是我們審預算的時候\n審查報告明確的指出在98年的時候而當時的行政院長游錫昆他說了一句話他說地方能做的我們中央就不要做這句口號讓原鄉的政策空轉了五年我們回顧一下民國93年的七二水災還有愛麗風災\n他重創了中北部的泰雅族地區特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣的尖石鄉還有桃園縣的復興區部落道路因為我們的農路還有動損之後連續五年沒有經費養護而這些在風災之中被摧毀殆盡因而阻斷了我們的族人的逃生還有\n救灾的路线而石门水库集水区的国有林斑地更发生了大规模的土石崩塌这也造成了石门水库的淤积也造成了桃园地区连续停水了20天而当时的行政院就开始急救张推动了所谓的八年八百亿的水患治理特别条例\n但是行政院的版本卻僅僅針對下游編列預算來整治它完全忽視了上中上游必須要整體治理最後在這裡經過本席的提案才終於甄編了上游跟的還有中游的\n治傷防災每年20億8年是160億的經費來逐年解決了北泰亞部落還有其他原鄉的土石流的問題主委這就是原住民族面對所謂的一般性補助款帶來的血淋淋的教訓\n我們沒有經常性的預算來改善原鄉的基礎設施只好用所謂的特別預算來重建部落主委您是資深的公務人員了動損之後原鄉我講的這些慘痛的經歷您也經歷過而現在你身為園民會的主委對於這個所謂的一般性的補助款您有什麼看法\n我跟委員報告我們這個114年大概是32.38億那115年我們是編26億就差了6.3億這主要就是要配合中長城的公共建設計畫分配的額度那我們會調整補助那未來我們希望我們還要\n還要再增提細題一些工界的計畫簡單講我們會再補題一些計畫少的6.3億我們會再補更重要一點就是這幾年來公所其實最迫切需要做的就是我們現在正在做重建的這些條例我們大概有40億的機會要用在原鄉重建條例他是有年限的\n而且他是有地區性的好嗎謝謝您在這裡的補充說明\n其實我聽不太清楚沒關係事後我會再請您來補充說明本席就任這立委的23年來其實我最重要的工作就是在重建動省之後原住民的政策還有我們的預算我記得我剛就任的時候也就是民國91年原民會為了要改善部落道路每年都要去跟公路總局低頭要經費預算從所謂的1億\n或兩億不等沒有法定的預算科目也沒有執行的方案而部落的這些道路的建設就處在不確定的狀況之下有沒有經費可以做然後一直在不確定同時期部落的排水溝還有擋土牆這些基礎建設也是完全停擺的\n也因為這麼樣子所以96年初呢在本席的陪同之下原住民族地區有55位鄉鎮市長到行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長在蘇院長的支持之下每年開始編列了5.9億的基本設施維持費直接撥付到鄉公所讓鄉公所他能夠維持最基本的\n部落的基礎建設的運作而同樣在民國96年的時候也在這個地方北溪對面站著是已故的張俊雄院長我在這裡質詢他我們原住民的道路的預算非常的短缺當時的張院長他傾聽民意他也採納了我的建議\n他立刻做了三點的決議交辦給行政院的各部會也請院長您聽一下第一個決議是96年將2.7億的道路預算保留延續執行第二個是97年除了編列9900萬的預算之外不足的部分\n他承诺可以动用第二预备金来执行第三个是原乡的部落道路预算总需求是29.9亿97年开始要折成原民会以4年的中程计划30亿逐年来编列\n解決需求的問題這就是張俊雄前院長令人非常尊敬跟敬佩的而部落的道路養護1.7億的預算怎麼來的呢也是本席在110年我站在這裡質詢當時是再一度做行政院長的蘇院長他在聽完我的質詢之後他也認為道路沒有養護的預算這非常的不公平也不合理\n所以在110年核定的這一筆預算從112年起開始編列我以上講的這幾項重要的原住民的政策是本席跟歷任的行政院長透過質詢還有政策溝通我們為原鄉建立了預算的\n例外處理情形為的是什麼為的是要保障原住民原民會的預算不受政治的干擾實質有效率的直接到達原住民部落在這裡我要再請教曾主委今年度的特色道路預算多少特色道路應該是跟去年差不多沒有沒有刪多少而且我們那個基本設施維持會那6億多都沒有刪掉\n我提醒你今年的特色道路叫做計劃型的補助是6.9億而明年的你們叫做一般性補助2.4億少了4.5億我還再請教你部落聯絡道路的養護今年是多少錢\n好你回答不出來沒關係今年你們叫做計劃型的補助1.7億而明年呢又叫做一般性的補助了0.8億這活生生少了0.9億\n院長您看到的這個數據這是園民會明年道路的預算我們不管他是編列所謂的計劃型補助還是一般性補助我們的特色道路打了4折道路養護的預算打了5折我再怎麼加總園鄉的道路預算明年度就活活少了5億啊還有另外一件事情是明年一般性的補助款為什麼只有園民會跟客委會必須要有行政院你們主管\n而其他的部會不用我請院長回答這兩個問題謝謝\n第一個剛剛主委有提到過一些交通的建設未來中長期它是逐年發生的我們會在未來的一般性補充當中來編列預算所以明年看起來或許會有一些金額上的減少這是中長期的另外有一些是必須因為財政收入方法調整之後新修法之後中央跟地方必須就地方政府的財政集赤來做分擔有些部分是地方政府要去負擔的\n這兩個部分跟委員先說明不過剛剛委員有提到一點你說當初省府的業務關於原住民撥給地方 地方不願執行所以省府後來把這個業務都撥給中央了那如果這樣的話在財政收受法案法的時候就應該保留部分在中央但現在完全又跑到地方去了\n院長我剛剛已經講到了變成一般性補助款的時候它會變成縣市政府的考量這是第一個第二個財政如果不好的話他們也不會放到\n人少的地區這就是我二十幾年來在這邊跟歷任的行政院長爭取的部分所以你現在又回歸到給地方政府歷任行政院長在財化法的理念下是有這個財力的未來是沒有這個財力的必須要做例外來處理你如果再用一般性補助款給地方政府我們會少了非常多的狀況就是我剛剛以上提的\n那我只是一句話請委員我們共同來支持未來行政院提出的才華版本我們才有版本就是我剛剛就把錢都給地方啦未來我就沒有辦法像張院長蘇院長性普及性基本建設或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡\n請問一下 縣市政府如果錢不夠的話他會把他的錢放在人少的偏鄉或原鄉地區嗎所以這不公平就會開始了 縣長 院長 最後我要再提醒我今天不想跟你吵架 我是在跟你談論\n在整體原住民自治之前我們不管在預算或者是政策上我們都必須要例外來處理否則所謂的民主原則就是經費往人多的地方去而沒有財源的原鄉或者偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉所以錢要保留在中央\n所以一般性補助款不適用於院在園民會第二個問題你沒有回答為什麼園民會的一般性補助款和柯委會就必須要行政院同意為什麼好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.038 --> 00:11.831\n謝謝主席我們有請卓院長還有園民會曾主委謝謝卓院長還有曾主委\n\n00:22.794 --> 00:45.625\n我今天要想跟你們談的是新版的財化法通過之後統籌分配稅款增加到8841億元這是地方財政改革的一大進步但是在行政院修訂補助辦法改變了一般性補助款的定義之後一切都變了掉了\n\n00:46.185 --> 01:14.168\n今天我要指出的是修法後的一般性補助款的執行管理的機制我覺得非常的鬆散這會讓弱小的部會還有弱勢的地區會被限制邊緣化而今天我談的最典型的例子就是園民會跟55個園鄉今天我就以園民會你們明年度所編列的所謂的一般性補助款來就教曾竺偉\n\n01:15.616 --> 01:18.167\n圓明會在明年的預算裡面首次\n\n01:19.822 --> 01:45.093\n編列了一般性補助款25.99億元然而這25.99億元卻不是園民會你們新增的預算是從過去園民會的所謂的計劃型補助還有公務預算編列的科目移過來的這包含了什麼基本設施維持費6.4億部落特色道路2.4億還有部落聯絡道路的養護經費0.8億\n\n01:48.234 --> 02:02.215\n曾主委我想請教你請你簡短的說什麼是一般性補助款一般型補助款跟競爭型補助款是不一樣的就是一般型本來就是在補助各地方政府公所也好縣政府也好一般性的補助\n\n02:02.981 --> 02:21.182\n好我講得更具體一點好了你們現在行政院今年修的一般性補助款的補助範圍限於具經常性普及性基本設施或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡這些項目對吧\n\n02:21.782 --> 02:37.208\n一般性補助款撥到縣市政府之後怎麼使用我們中央控管的力道是有限的而縣市政府往往會因為施政的順序考量他會投入原鄉或者是偏鄉的預算就會變少\n\n02:38.729 --> 03:02.977\n民國91年本席就任立法委員以後我開始針對原鄉長年遭到制度性的忽視治理體系的失靈的現象我在這裡提出我的質詢還有要求經過二十幾年的制度調整還有建立我們終於讓原民會在預算上變成了一個可以講說是正常的部會\n\n03:03.917 --> 03:19.766\n而其中最核心的價值就是行政院讓園民會的預算可以例外處理在台灣省政府的年代園鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算還有執行的\n\n03:20.626 --> 03:36.800\n原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局來主管原鄉的農路還有治山防洪這些工程歸農林廳的三地農牧局來管理\n\n03:37.521 --> 03:59.291\n而但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在動審之後經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府而省府每年應該要給原鄉的9億的農路還有19億的鄉道養護的預算行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補儲款下放給地方政府\n\n04:00.111 --> 04:22.520\n而這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算中央部會就不再編列了於是地方縣市政府拿到這些經費之後它會基於選票的考量預算往往不會投入到地廣人稀的原鄉再加上原來省屬單位的專業的人力也移撥到了中央\n\n04:23.300 --> 04:34.836\n而地方政府在沒有人力沒有專業的狀況可以執行政策的時候呢這就造成了原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期\n\n04:36.155 --> 05:02.397\n立法院在民國98年的預算審查的報告也非常明確的指出從民國90年起原屬省府專案的農路灌溉管路的改善經費改為一般性補助款由縣市政府來統籌而由於地方財政還有人力不足因此農路灌溉水路長年無法維修這是我們審預算的時候\n\n05:03.159 --> 05:21.265\n審查報告明確的指出在98年的時候而當時的行政院長游錫昆他說了一句話他說地方能做的我們中央就不要做這句口號讓原鄉的政策空轉了五年我們回顧一下民國93年的七二水災還有愛麗風災\n\n05:22.665 --> 05:48.615\n他重創了中北部的泰雅族地區特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣的尖石鄉還有桃園縣的復興區部落道路因為我們的農路還有動損之後連續五年沒有經費養護而這些在風災之中被摧毀殆盡因而阻斷了我們的族人的逃生還有\n\n05:49.793 --> 06:10.115\n救灾的路线而石门水库集水区的国有林斑地更发生了大规模的土石崩塌这也造成了石门水库的淤积也造成了桃园地区连续停水了20天而当时的行政院就开始急救张推动了所谓的八年八百亿的水患治理特别条例\n\n06:10.695 --> 06:29.615\n但是行政院的版本卻僅僅針對下游編列預算來整治它完全忽視了上中上游必須要整體治理最後在這裡經過本席的提案才終於甄編了上游跟的還有中游的\n\n06:29.975 --> 06:48.542\n治傷防災每年20億8年是160億的經費來逐年解決了北泰亞部落還有其他原鄉的土石流的問題主委這就是原住民族面對所謂的一般性補助款帶來的血淋淋的教訓\n\n06:49.881 --> 07:13.482\n我們沒有經常性的預算來改善原鄉的基礎設施只好用所謂的特別預算來重建部落主委您是資深的公務人員了動損之後原鄉我講的這些慘痛的經歷您也經歷過而現在你身為園民會的主委對於這個所謂的一般性的補助款您有什麼看法\n\n07:14.275 --> 07:34.126\n我跟委員報告我們這個114年大概是32.38億那115年我們是編26億就差了6.3億這主要就是要配合中長城的公共建設計畫分配的額度那我們會調整補助那未來我們希望我們還要\n\n07:35.546 --> 08:03.768\n還要再增提細題一些工界的計畫簡單講我們會再補題一些計畫少的6.3億我們會再補更重要一點就是這幾年來公所其實最迫切需要做的就是我們現在正在做重建的這些條例我們大概有40億的機會要用在原鄉重建條例他是有年限的\n\n08:04.290 --> 08:08.650\n而且他是有地區性的好嗎謝謝您在這裡的補充說明\n\n08:09.204 --> 08:36.474\n其實我聽不太清楚沒關係事後我會再請您來補充說明本席就任這立委的23年來其實我最重要的工作就是在重建動省之後原住民的政策還有我們的預算我記得我剛就任的時候也就是民國91年原民會為了要改善部落道路每年都要去跟公路總局低頭要經費預算從所謂的1億\n\n08:37.634 --> 08:58.074\n或兩億不等沒有法定的預算科目也沒有執行的方案而部落的這些道路的建設就處在不確定的狀況之下有沒有經費可以做然後一直在不確定同時期部落的排水溝還有擋土牆這些基礎建設也是完全停擺的\n\n08:59.008 --> 09:22.090\n也因為這麼樣子所以96年初呢在本席的陪同之下原住民族地區有55位鄉鎮市長到行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長在蘇院長的支持之下每年開始編列了5.9億的基本設施維持費直接撥付到鄉公所讓鄉公所他能夠維持最基本的\n\n09:23.430 --> 09:43.141\n部落的基礎建設的運作而同樣在民國96年的時候也在這個地方北溪對面站著是已故的張俊雄院長我在這裡質詢他我們原住民的道路的預算非常的短缺當時的張院長他傾聽民意他也採納了我的建議\n\n09:43.741 --> 10:01.646\n他立刻做了三點的決議交辦給行政院的各部會也請院長您聽一下第一個決議是96年將2.7億的道路預算保留延續執行第二個是97年除了編列9900萬的預算之外不足的部分\n\n10:02.126 --> 10:19.976\n他承诺可以动用第二预备金来执行第三个是原乡的部落道路预算总需求是29.9亿97年开始要折成原民会以4年的中程计划30亿逐年来编列\n\n10:21.107 --> 10:50.416\n解決需求的問題這就是張俊雄前院長令人非常尊敬跟敬佩的而部落的道路養護1.7億的預算怎麼來的呢也是本席在110年我站在這裡質詢當時是再一度做行政院長的蘇院長他在聽完我的質詢之後他也認為道路沒有養護的預算這非常的不公平也不合理\n\n10:51.016 --> 11:08.021\n所以在110年核定的這一筆預算從112年起開始編列我以上講的這幾項重要的原住民的政策是本席跟歷任的行政院長透過質詢還有政策溝通我們為原鄉建立了預算的\n\n11:08.681 --> 11:34.427\n例外處理情形為的是什麼為的是要保障原住民原民會的預算不受政治的干擾實質有效率的直接到達原住民部落在這裡我要再請教曾主委今年度的特色道路預算多少特色道路應該是跟去年差不多沒有沒有刪多少而且我們那個基本設施維持會那6億多都沒有刪掉\n\n11:36.209 --> 11:52.291\n我提醒你今年的特色道路叫做計劃型的補助是6.9億而明年的你們叫做一般性補助2.4億少了4.5億我還再請教你部落聯絡道路的養護今年是多少錢\n\n11:55.285 --> 12:08.041\n好你回答不出來沒關係今年你們叫做計劃型的補助1.7億而明年呢又叫做一般性的補助了0.8億這活生生少了0.9億\n\n12:09.875 --> 12:39.355\n院長您看到的這個數據這是園民會明年道路的預算我們不管他是編列所謂的計劃型補助還是一般性補助我們的特色道路打了4折道路養護的預算打了5折我再怎麼加總園鄉的道路預算明年度就活活少了5億啊還有另外一件事情是明年一般性的補助款為什麼只有園民會跟客委會必須要有行政院你們主管\n\n12:39.935 --> 12:42.349\n而其他的部會不用我請院長回答這兩個問題謝謝\n\n12:44.212 --> 13:13.932\n第一個剛剛主委有提到過一些交通的建設未來中長期它是逐年發生的我們會在未來的一般性補充當中來編列預算所以明年看起來或許會有一些金額上的減少這是中長期的另外有一些是必須因為財政收入方法調整之後新修法之後中央跟地方必須就地方政府的財政集赤來做分擔有些部分是地方政府要去負擔的\n\n13:14.672 --> 13:34.965\n這兩個部分跟委員先說明不過剛剛委員有提到一點你說當初省府的業務關於原住民撥給地方地方不願執行所以省府後來把這個業務都撥給中央了那如果這樣的話在財政收受法案法的時候就應該保留部分在中央但現在完全又跑到地方去了\n\n13:35.373 --> 13:45.574\n院長我剛剛已經講到了變成一般性補助款的時候它會變成縣市政府的考量這是第一個第二個財政如果不好的話他們也不會放到\n\n13:46.243 --> 14:13.839\n人少的地區這就是我二十幾年來在這邊跟歷任的行政院長爭取的部分所以你現在又回歸到給地方政府歷任行政院長在財化法的理念下是有這個財力的未來是沒有這個財力的必須要做例外來處理你如果再用一般性補助款給地方政府我們會少了非常多的狀況就是我剛剛以上提的\n\n14:13.899 --> 14:32.457\n那我只是一句話請委員我們共同來支持未來行政院提出的才華版本我們才有版本就是我剛剛就把錢都給地方啦未來我就沒有辦法像張院長蘇院長性普及性基本建設或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡\n\n14:33.378 --> 14:48.314\n請問一下縣市政府如果錢不夠的話他會把他的錢放在人少的偏鄉或原鄉地區嗎所以這不公平就會開始了縣長院長最後我要再提醒我今天不想跟你吵架我是在跟你談論\n\n14:49.575 --> 15:06.764\n在整體原住民自治之前我們不管在預算或者是政策上我們都必須要例外來處理否則所謂的民主原則就是經費往人多的地方去而沒有財源的原鄉或者偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉所以錢要保留在中央\n\n15:13.147 --> 15:25.680\n所以一般性補助款不適用於院在園民會第二個問題你沒有回答為什麼園民會的一般性補助款和柯委會就必須要行政院同意為什麼好\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.038,"end":11.831,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請卓院長還有園民會曾主委謝謝卓院長還有曾主委"},{"start":22.794,"end":45.625,"text":"我今天要想跟你們談的是新版的財化法通過之後統籌分配稅款增加到8841億元這是地方財政改革的一大進步但是在行政院修訂補助辦法改變了一般性補助款的定義之後一切都變了掉了"},{"start":46.185,"end":74.168,"text":"今天我要指出的是修法後的一般性補助款的執行管理的機制我覺得非常的鬆散這會讓弱小的部會還有弱勢的地區會被限制邊緣化而今天我談的最典型的例子就是園民會跟55個園鄉今天我就以園民會你們明年度所編列的所謂的一般性補助款來就教曾竺偉"},{"start":75.616,"end":78.167,"text":"圓明會在明年的預算裡面首次"},{"start":79.822,"end":105.093,"text":"編列了一般性補助款25.99億元然而這25.99億元卻不是園民會你們新增的預算是從過去園民會的所謂的計劃型補助還有公務預算編列的科目移過來的這包含了什麼基本設施維持費6.4億部落特色道路2.4億還有部落聯絡道路的養護經費0.8億"},{"start":108.234,"end":122.215,"text":"曾主委我想請教你請你簡短的說什麼是一般性補助款一般型補助款跟競爭型補助款是不一樣的就是一般型本來就是在補助各地方政府公所也好縣政府也好一般性的補助"},{"start":122.981,"end":141.182,"text":"好 我講得更具體一點好了你們現在行政院今年修的一般性補助款的補助範圍限於具經常性 普及性 基本設施或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡這些項目 對吧"},{"start":141.782,"end":157.208,"text":"一般性補助款撥到縣市政府之後怎麼使用我們中央控管的力道是有限的而縣市政府往往會因為施政的順序考量他會投入原鄉或者是偏鄉的預算就會變少"},{"start":158.729,"end":182.977,"text":"民國91年本席就任立法委員以後我開始針對原鄉長年遭到制度性的忽視治理體系的失靈的現象我在這裡提出我的質詢還有要求經過二十幾年的制度調整還有建立我們終於讓原民會在預算上變成了一個可以講說是正常的部會"},{"start":183.917,"end":199.766,"text":"而其中最核心的價值就是行政院讓園民會的預算可以例外處理在台灣省政府的年代園鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算還有執行的"},{"start":200.626,"end":216.8,"text":"原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局來主管原鄉的農路還有治山防洪這些工程歸農林廳的三地農牧局來管理"},{"start":217.521,"end":239.291,"text":"而但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在動審之後經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府而省府每年應該要給原鄉的9億的農路還有19億的鄉道養護的預算行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補儲款下放給地方政府"},{"start":240.111,"end":262.52,"text":"而這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算中央部會就不再編列了於是地方縣市政府拿到這些經費之後它會基於選票的考量預算往往不會投入到地廣人稀的原鄉再加上原來省屬單位的專業的人力也移撥到了中央"},{"start":263.3,"end":274.836,"text":"而地方政府在沒有人力沒有專業的狀況可以執行政策的時候呢這就造成了原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期"},{"start":276.155,"end":302.397,"text":"立法院在民國98年的預算審查的報告也非常明確的指出從民國90年起原屬省府專案的農路灌溉管路的改善經費改為一般性補助款由縣市政府來統籌而由於地方財政還有人力不足因此農路灌溉水路長年無法維修這是我們審預算的時候"},{"start":303.159,"end":321.265,"text":"審查報告明確的指出在98年的時候而當時的行政院長游錫昆他說了一句話他說地方能做的我們中央就不要做這句口號讓原鄉的政策空轉了五年我們回顧一下民國93年的七二水災還有愛麗風災"},{"start":322.665,"end":348.615,"text":"他重創了中北部的泰雅族地區特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣的尖石鄉還有桃園縣的復興區部落道路因為我們的農路還有動損之後連續五年沒有經費養護而這些在風災之中被摧毀殆盡因而阻斷了我們的族人的逃生還有"},{"start":349.793,"end":370.115,"text":"救灾的路线而石门水库集水区的国有林斑地更发生了大规模的土石崩塌这也造成了石门水库的淤积也造成了桃园地区连续停水了20天而当时的行政院就开始急救张推动了所谓的八年八百亿的水患治理特别条例"},{"start":370.695,"end":389.615,"text":"但是行政院的版本卻僅僅針對下游編列預算來整治它完全忽視了上中上游必須要整體治理最後在這裡經過本席的提案才終於甄編了上游跟的還有中游的"},{"start":389.975,"end":408.542,"text":"治傷防災每年20億8年是160億的經費來逐年解決了北泰亞部落還有其他原鄉的土石流的問題主委這就是原住民族面對所謂的一般性補助款帶來的血淋淋的教訓"},{"start":409.881,"end":433.482,"text":"我們沒有經常性的預算來改善原鄉的基礎設施只好用所謂的特別預算來重建部落主委您是資深的公務人員了動損之後原鄉我講的這些慘痛的經歷您也經歷過而現在你身為園民會的主委對於這個所謂的一般性的補助款您有什麼看法"},{"start":434.275,"end":454.126,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個114年大概是32.38億那115年我們是編26億就差了6.3億這主要就是要配合中長城的公共建設計畫分配的額度那我們會調整補助那未來我們希望我們還要"},{"start":455.546,"end":483.768,"text":"還要再增提細題一些工界的計畫簡單講我們會再補題一些計畫少的6.3億我們會再補更重要一點就是這幾年來公所其實最迫切需要做的就是我們現在正在做重建的這些條例我們大概有40億的機會要用在原鄉重建條例他是有年限的"},{"start":484.29,"end":488.65,"text":"而且他是有地區性的好嗎謝謝您在這裡的補充說明"},{"start":489.204,"end":516.474,"text":"其實我聽不太清楚沒關係事後我會再請您來補充說明本席就任這立委的23年來其實我最重要的工作就是在重建動省之後原住民的政策還有我們的預算我記得我剛就任的時候也就是民國91年原民會為了要改善部落道路每年都要去跟公路總局低頭要經費預算從所謂的1億"},{"start":517.634,"end":538.074,"text":"或兩億不等沒有法定的預算科目也沒有執行的方案而部落的這些道路的建設就處在不確定的狀況之下有沒有經費可以做然後一直在不確定同時期部落的排水溝還有擋土牆這些基礎建設也是完全停擺的"},{"start":539.008,"end":562.09,"text":"也因為這麼樣子所以96年初呢在本席的陪同之下原住民族地區有55位鄉鎮市長到行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長在蘇院長的支持之下每年開始編列了5.9億的基本設施維持費直接撥付到鄉公所讓鄉公所他能夠維持最基本的"},{"start":563.43,"end":583.141,"text":"部落的基礎建設的運作而同樣在民國96年的時候也在這個地方北溪對面站著是已故的張俊雄院長我在這裡質詢他我們原住民的道路的預算非常的短缺當時的張院長他傾聽民意他也採納了我的建議"},{"start":583.741,"end":601.646,"text":"他立刻做了三點的決議交辦給行政院的各部會也請院長您聽一下第一個決議是96年將2.7億的道路預算保留延續執行第二個是97年除了編列9900萬的預算之外不足的部分"},{"start":602.126,"end":619.976,"text":"他承诺可以动用第二预备金来执行第三个是原乡的部落道路预算总需求是29.9亿97年开始要折成原民会以4年的中程计划30亿逐年来编列"},{"start":621.107,"end":650.416,"text":"解決需求的問題這就是張俊雄前院長令人非常尊敬跟敬佩的而部落的道路養護1.7億的預算怎麼來的呢也是本席在110年我站在這裡質詢當時是再一度做行政院長的蘇院長他在聽完我的質詢之後他也認為道路沒有養護的預算這非常的不公平也不合理"},{"start":651.016,"end":668.021,"text":"所以在110年核定的這一筆預算從112年起開始編列我以上講的這幾項重要的原住民的政策是本席跟歷任的行政院長透過質詢還有政策溝通我們為原鄉建立了預算的"},{"start":668.681,"end":694.427,"text":"例外處理情形為的是什麼為的是要保障原住民原民會的預算不受政治的干擾實質有效率的直接到達原住民部落在這裡我要再請教曾主委今年度的特色道路預算多少特色道路應該是跟去年差不多沒有沒有刪多少而且我們那個基本設施維持會那6億多都沒有刪掉"},{"start":696.209,"end":712.291,"text":"我提醒你今年的特色道路叫做計劃型的補助是6.9億而明年的你們叫做一般性補助2.4億少了4.5億我還再請教你部落聯絡道路的養護今年是多少錢"},{"start":715.285,"end":728.041,"text":"好你回答不出來沒關係今年你們叫做計劃型的補助1.7億而明年呢又叫做一般性的補助了0.8億這活生生少了0.9億"},{"start":729.875,"end":759.355,"text":"院長您看到的這個數據這是園民會明年道路的預算我們不管他是編列所謂的計劃型補助還是一般性補助我們的特色道路打了4折道路養護的預算打了5折我再怎麼加總園鄉的道路預算明年度就活活少了5億啊還有另外一件事情是明年一般性的補助款為什麼只有園民會跟客委會必須要有行政院你們主管"},{"start":759.935,"end":762.349,"text":"而其他的部會不用我請院長回答這兩個問題謝謝"},{"start":764.212,"end":793.932,"text":"第一個剛剛主委有提到過一些交通的建設未來中長期它是逐年發生的我們會在未來的一般性補充當中來編列預算所以明年看起來或許會有一些金額上的減少這是中長期的另外有一些是必須因為財政收入方法調整之後新修法之後中央跟地方必須就地方政府的財政集赤來做分擔有些部分是地方政府要去負擔的"},{"start":794.672,"end":814.965,"text":"這兩個部分跟委員先說明不過剛剛委員有提到一點你說當初省府的業務關於原住民撥給地方 地方不願執行所以省府後來把這個業務都撥給中央了那如果這樣的話在財政收受法案法的時候就應該保留部分在中央但現在完全又跑到地方去了"},{"start":815.373,"end":825.574,"text":"院長我剛剛已經講到了變成一般性補助款的時候它會變成縣市政府的考量這是第一個第二個財政如果不好的話他們也不會放到"},{"start":826.243,"end":853.839,"text":"人少的地區這就是我二十幾年來在這邊跟歷任的行政院長爭取的部分所以你現在又回歸到給地方政府歷任行政院長在財化法的理念下是有這個財力的未來是沒有這個財力的必須要做例外來處理你如果再用一般性補助款給地方政府我們會少了非常多的狀況就是我剛剛以上提的"},{"start":853.899,"end":872.457,"text":"那我只是一句話請委員我們共同來支持未來行政院提出的才華版本我們才有版本就是我剛剛就把錢都給地方啦未來我就沒有辦法像張院長蘇院長性普及性基本建設或維運性質最重要的是財政均衡"},{"start":873.378,"end":888.314,"text":"請問一下 縣市政府如果錢不夠的話他會把他的錢放在人少的偏鄉或原鄉地區嗎所以這不公平就會開始了 縣長 院長 最後我要再提醒我今天不想跟你吵架 我是在跟你談論"},{"start":889.575,"end":906.764,"text":"在整體原住民自治之前我們不管在預算或者是政策上我們都必須要例外來處理否則所謂的民主原則就是經費往人多的地方去而沒有財源的原鄉或者偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉所以錢要保留在中央"},{"start":913.147,"end":925.68,"text":"所以一般性補助款不適用於院在園民會第二個問題你沒有回答為什麼園民會的一般性補助款和柯委會就必須要行政院同意為什麼好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時20分）謝謝主席，我們有請卓院長，還有原民會曾主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長還有曾主委備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：院長、曾主委早安。我今天想跟你們談的是新版財劃法通過之後，統籌分配稅款增加到8,841億元，這是地方財政改革的一大進步，但是在行政院修訂補助辦法改變了一般性補助款的定義之後，一切都變了調。今天我要指出的是，修法後一般性補助款執行管理的機制，我覺得非常地鬆散，這會讓弱小的部會還有弱勢的地區被限制還有邊緣化，而今天我談的最典型的例子就是原民會跟55個原鄉。","今天我就以原民會明年度編列所謂的「一般性補助款」來就教曾主委，原民會在明年的預算裡面首次編列了一般性補助款25.99億元，然而這25.99億元卻不是原民會新增的預算，而是從過去原民會所謂的計畫型補助還有公務預算編列的科目移過來的。這包含了什麼？基本設施維持費6.4億，部落特色道路2.4億，還有部落聯絡道路養護經費0.8億。曾主委，我想請教你，請你簡短地說什麼是一般性補助款？"],["曾主任委員智勇：一般性補助款跟競爭型補助款是不一樣的，一般性補助款本來就是在補助各地方政府，包括公所也好、縣政府也好的一般性補助。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我講得更具體一點好了，你們行政院今年修的一般性補助款的補助範圍，限於具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質，最重要的是財政均衡這些項目，對吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：一般性補助款撥到縣市政府之後怎麼使用？我們中央控管的力道是有限的，而縣市政府往往會因為施政的順序考量而讓投入原鄉或者是偏鄉的預算變少。民國91年本席就任立法委員以後，開始針對原鄉常年遭到制度性忽視、治理體系失靈的現象在這裡提出我的質詢還有要求，經過二十幾年的制度調整還有建立，我們終於讓原民會在預算上變成了一個可以講說是正常的部會，而其中最核心的價值就是行政院讓原民會的預算可以例外處理。","在臺灣省政府的年代，原鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算還有執行的，原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局主管；原鄉的農路還有治山防洪這些工程則歸農林廳的山地農牧局管理，但是這些原鄉的基礎建設在凍省之後，經費預算全部移撥到地方縣市政府，而省府每年應該要給原鄉9億的農路，還有19億的鄉道養護預算，行政院全部化為所謂的一般性補助款下放給地方政府。這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算，中央部會就不再編列了，於是地方縣市政府拿到這些經費之後，會基於選票的考量，預算往往不會投入到地廣人稀的原鄉。","再加上原來省屬單位的專業人力也移撥到中央，而地方政府在沒有人力、沒有專業的狀況可以執行政策時，就造成原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期。立法院在民國98年的預算審查報告也非常明確地指出，從民國90年起，原屬省府專案的農路、灌溉管路的改善經費改為一般性補助款，由縣市政府來統籌，而由於地方財政還有人力不足，因此農路、灌溉水路長年無法維修。這是我們審預算的時候，在98年的審查報告明確的指出。而當時的行政院長游錫堃說了一句話，地方能做的，中央就不要做！這句口號讓原鄉的政策空轉了5年。","我們回顧一下，民國93年的七二水災，還有艾利風災，重創了中北部的泰雅族地區，特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣尖石鄉，還有桃園縣復興區；我們的部落道路還有農路因為在凍省之後連續5年沒有經費養護，而且這些在風災之中被摧毀殆盡，因而阻斷了我們族人的逃生，還有救災的路線；石門水庫集水區的國有林班地更發生了大規模的土石崩塌，這也造成了石門水庫的淤積，也造成了桃園地區連續停水了20天；當時的行政院就開始急就章推動了所謂的8年800億的水患治理特別條例，但是行政院的版本卻僅僅針對下游編列預算來整治，完全忽視了上、中、下游必須要整體治理，最後在這裡經過本席的提案，才終於增編了上游還有中游的治山防災經費，每年20億，8年160億經費，來逐年解決北泰雅部落還有其他原鄉的土石流問題。","主委，這就是原住民族面對所謂的一般性補助款帶來的血淋淋的教訓，我們沒有經常性的預算來改善原鄉的基礎設施，只好用所謂的特別預算來重建部落。主委，您是資深的公務人員了，凍省之後，我講的原鄉這些慘痛的經歷您也經歷過，現在你身為原民會的主委，對於這個所謂的一般性補助款，您有什麼看法？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，114年我們大概是編32.38億，115年我們是編26億，就差了6.3億，這主要就是要配合中長程的公共建設計畫分配的額度，我們會調整補助，未來我們還要在原鄉增提、細提一些公建計畫，簡單講，我們會再補提一些計畫，少的6.3億，我們會再補，更重要的一點，這幾年來公所其實最迫切需要做的就是我們現在正在做的這些重建條例，我們大概有40億的經費要用在原鄉……"],["高金委員素梅：好，主委，謝謝你，重建條例是有年限的……"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：而且它是有地區性的，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝您在這裡的補充說明，其實我聽不太清楚，沒關係，事後我會再請您來補充說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：本席就任立委的這23年來，其實我最重要的工作就是在重建凍省之後原住民的政策還有預算。","我記得我剛就任的時候，也就是民國91年，原民會為了要改善部落道路，每年都要去跟公路總局低頭要經費，預算從所謂的1億或2億不等，沒有法定的預算科目，也沒有執行的方案，部落的道路建設就處在不確定的狀況之下，有沒有經費可以做？一直不確定，同時期，部落的排水溝還有擋土牆這些基礎建設也是完全停擺的。也因為這樣子，所以96年初在本席的陪同之下，原住民族地區有55位鄉鎮市長到行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長，在蘇院長的支持之下，每年開始編列5.9億的基本設施維持費，直接撥付到鄉公所，讓鄉公所能夠維持最基本的部落基礎建設的運作；同樣在民國96年的時候，也在這個地方，本席對面站著的是已故的張俊雄院長，我在這裡質詢他，我們原住民道路的預算非常的短缺，當時的張院長，他傾聽民意，他也採納了我的建議，他立刻做了三點決議，交辦給行政院的各部會，也請院長您聽一下。第一個決議是96年將2.7億的道路預算保留延續執行；第二個是97年除了編列9,900萬的預算之外，不足的部分他承諾可以動用第二預備來執行；第三個是原鄉的部落道路預算總需求是29.9億，97年開始要責成原民會以四年中程計畫30億逐年編列，以解決需求的問題，這就是張俊雄前院長令人非常尊敬跟敬佩的。而部落的道路養護1.7億的預算怎麼來的呢？也是本席在110年，我站在這裡質詢當時再度做行政院長的蘇院長，他在聽完我的質詢之後，他也認為道路沒有養護的預算非常的不公平，也不合理，所以在110年核定的這一筆預算，從112年起開始編列。","我以上講的這幾項重要的原住民政策是本席跟歷任的行政院長透過質詢，還有政策溝通，我們為原鄉建立了預算的例外處理情形，為的是什麼？為的是要保障原民會的預算不受政治的干擾，實質有效率的直接到達原住民部落。在這裡我要再請教曾主委，今年度的特色道路預算多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：特色道路應該是跟去年差不多，沒有刪多少，而且我們的基本設施維持費，那六億多都沒有刪掉。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，我提醒你，今年的特色道路叫做計畫型補助是6.9億，而明年的你們叫做一般性補助是2.4億，少了4.5億。我再請教你，部落聯絡道路的養護今年是多少錢？好，你回答不出來，沒關係，今年你們叫做計畫型補助1.7億，而明年又叫做一般性補助0.8億，活生生少了0.9億。院長，您看到的這個數據是原民會明年道路的預算，我們不管它是編列所謂的計畫型補助，還是一般性補助，我們特色道路的預算打了四折，道路養護的預算打了五折，我再怎麼加總原鄉的道路預算，明年度就活活少了5億啊！還有另外一件事情是明年的一般性補助款，為什麼只有原民會跟客委會必須要由行政院主管，而其他的部會不用？我請院長回答這兩個問題，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，剛剛主委有提到過，一些交通的建設未來中長期它是逐年發生的，我們會在未來的一般性補助當中來編列預算，所以明年看起來或許會有一些金額上的減少，這是中長期的。另外有一些是因為財政收支劃分法調整、新修法之後，中央跟地方必須就地方政府的財政機制來做分擔，有些部分是地方政府要去負擔的，這兩個部分跟委員先說明。","不過剛剛委員有提到一點，你說當初省府把關於原住民的業務撥給地方，地方不願意執行，所以省府後來把這些業務都撥給中央了。如果這樣的話，在財政收支劃分法裡就應該保留部分在中央，但現在完全又都跑到地方去了。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，我剛剛已經講到了，變成一般性補助款的時候它會變成縣市政府的考量，這是第一個；第二個，財政如果不好的話，他們也不會放到人少的地區，這就是我二十幾年來在這邊跟歷任的行政院長爭取的部分，所以你現在又回歸給地方政府，其實我要講的……"],["卓院長榮泰：歷任行政院長在財劃法的理念之下是有這個財力的，未來是沒有這個財力的。"],["高金委員素梅：我要講的是，原民會的預算必須要用例外來處理，你如果再用一般性補助款給地方政府，我們會少非常多的經費，就是我剛剛以上提的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：那我誠摯的一句話，請委員共同來支持未來行政院提出的財劃法版本，我們才有……"],["高金委員素梅：你的財劃法版本就是……剛剛我已經唸給你聽啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：就把錢丟給地方啦！未來我就沒有辦法像張院長、蘇院長……"],["高金委員素梅：我剛剛已經說，具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質，最重要的是財政均衡。"],["卓院長榮泰：未來四千……"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下，如果縣市政府錢不夠的話，他會把他的錢放在人少的偏鄉或原鄉地區嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以未來……"],["高金委員素梅：所以這不公平又會開始了，行政院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來的院長、未來哪一位院長……"],["高金委員素梅：院長，最後我要再提醒你，我今天不想跟你吵架，我是在跟你談論。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我沒有要吵架，但未來的院長不可能像張院長、蘇院長這樣子做……"],["高金委員素梅：在整體原住民自治之前，不管在預算或者是政策上，我們都必須要例外來處理，否則所謂的民主原則就是經費往人多的地方去，而沒有財源的原鄉或者偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉。"],["卓院長榮泰：我完全贊成。"],["高金委員素梅：對，完全贊成，所以一般性補助款……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以錢要保留在中央。"],["高金委員素梅：所以一般性補助款不適於用在原民會啊！第二個問題你沒有回答，為什麼原民會和客委會的一般性補助款就必須要行政院同意，為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是由國發會跟各部會在盤點所有的預算。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，這不公平！"],["委員高金素梅書面補充資料：","新版《財劃法》通過後，統籌分配稅款增加到8,841億元。這是地方財政改革的一大進步，但在行政院修訂《補助辦法》改變一般性補助款的定義後，一切都變調了。","本席要指出的是，修法後的一般性補助款執行管理機制鬆散，讓弱小部會與弱勢地區被制度邊緣化。最典型的例子，就是原民會與55個原鄉。","原民會在明年預算中，首次編列「一般性補助款」25.99億元。而這25.99億卻不是原民會新增的預算，是從過去原民會的計畫型補助，和公務預算所編列的科目移過來，包含「基本設施維持費6.4億」、「部落特色道路2.4億」、和「部落聯絡道路養護0.8億」等等。","民國九十一年，本席就任立委之後，開始針對原鄉長年遭制度性忽視、治理體系失靈的現象提出調整要求，經過二十幾年的制度調整與建立，讓原民會在預算上變成一個正常的部會。當中的核心價值就是行政院讓「原民會」的預算，可以例外處理。","在台灣省政府的年代，原鄉的各項建設都是由省府編列預算並執行，原鄉的部落道路、鄉道、縣道、省道都歸公路局主管，原鄉的農路及治山防災工程歸農林廳山地農牧局管。但是，這些原鄉的基礎建設，在凍省之後，經費預算移撥地方縣市政府，因此，省府每年9億的農路預算，每年19億的鄉道養護預算，行政院全部化為「一般性補助款」下放給地方縣市政府。這些過去挹注在原鄉的省府預算，中央部會不再編列。於是，地方縣市政府拿到經費後，基於選票考量，預算不願投入地廣人稀的原鄉；再加上原來省屬單位的專業人力也移撥到中央，地方政府沒人力沒專業可以執行這些政策，這造成了原鄉連續數年的政策空窗期。","而立法院在民國九十八年預算審查報告也指出，從民國九十年起，原屬省府專案的農路、灌溉管路改善經費，改為一般性補助款由縣市統籌。由於地方財政與人力不足，因此，農路、灌溉水路長年無法維修。","當時的行政院長游錫堃所說的「地方能做的，中央不要做。」這句口號讓原鄉政策空轉了五年。","我們來回顧一下，民國九十三年的七二水災和艾利風災重創中北部的泰雅族地區，特別是位處石門水庫集水區的新竹縣尖石鄉和桃園市復興區，部落道路與農路因為凍省後連續五年無經費養護，在風災過程中被摧毀殆盡，因而阻斷逃生與救災路線。石門水庫集水區的國有林班地更發生大規模的土石崩塌，造成石門水庫淤積，桃園地區連續停水20幾天。","當時行政院開始急就章推動「八年八百億」水患治理特別條例，但是院版卻僅針對下游的河川與排水治理，完全忽視河川上、中、下游需要同步治理，最後經過本席提案才增編中上游治山防災每年20億元的特別預算，八年共160億經費，逐年解決北泰雅部落和其他原鄉的土石流危機。","本席就任立委23年來，最重要的工作就是在重建凍省後原住民族政策和預算。","我剛就任的時候，也就是民國九十一年起，原民會為了改善部落道路，每年都要去跟公路總局低聲下氣要經費，預算從1億、2億不等，沒有法定預算科目跟執行方案，部落建設也處在不確定是否有經費可以做改善的情形；同時期，部落的排水溝、擋土牆等基礎設施也完全停擺。","也因為如此，民國九十六年初，在本席陪同下，原住民族地區55位鄉鎮市長至行政院拜訪蘇貞昌院長，在蘇院長的支持下，每年開始編列5.9億的基本設施維持費（目前調整為6.4億），直接撥付予鄉公所，讓鄉公所能維持基本運作。","同樣在民國九十六年，就在這個地方，本席對面站著已故的張俊雄院長，我質詢部落道路預算短缺的政策，當時的張院長傾聽民意，也採納了我的建議，立刻做了三點決議交辦給行政院各部會。","一、九十六年將2.7億道路預算保留延續執行。","二、九十七年除編9千9百萬預算，不足部分也承諾可以動支第二預備金執行。","三、原鄉部落道路預算總需求為29.9億，九十七年開始責成原民會以四年中程計畫30億逐年編列。","解決需求的問題，這就是張俊雄前院長令人尊敬的行政態度。","而部落道路養護1.7億的預算，是民國一百一十年本席站在這裡質詢，蘇院長聽完本席質詢後，認為道路沒有養護預算很不合理，所以在一百一十一年核定了這一筆預算，自一百一十二年度起開始編列。","這三項重要的原住民族政策，是本席與歷任行政院長透過質詢與政策溝通，為原鄉建立預算的「例外」處理情形，為的是保障原民會的預算不受政治干擾，實質有效率的直達部落。","院長，剛剛您也看到明年原民會的道路預算了，不管它是編列為計畫型補助款還是一般性補助款，特色道路預算「打四折」，道路養護預算「打五折」。再怎麼加總，原鄉的道路預算，明年度就是少了五億。","院長、主委，在整體原住民族自治之前，我們不管在預算或政策都需要「例外處理」，否則，民主原則是「經費往人多的地方去」，沒有財源的原鄉或偏鄉將成為永遠的窮鄉。","請兩週內研議初步改正方案，建立專責與透明的機制，還原住民公平正義。請別再欺負原住民，現在改，公開時程、明定問責機制，否則本席將凍結相關預算、追究責任到底。","此外，當前政府早在年初即對外表示，全台平埔族群認同者超過10萬人，而後10月17日，我們實踐轉型正義的重要一步，讓平埔族群家人的地位，終於法制化。","但納入中央原民政策的範疇，但相關配套措施還沒進展。預算上，執政黨仍未依人口比例編列經費，族人權益沒有獲得同等待遇；法律上，平埔權益涉及127條法律、283項命令，仍要處置。","我們希望爭取屬於原住民族的完整權益，也要求執政黨展現誠意，拿出具體政策，提出制度藍圖、配套預算與具體時程，而非讓期待流於空談。然而，面對立法通過，即將進入大家庭的至少十萬人的此刻，相關預算應予已先行，究竟應採追加預算或其他方式，應請行政院及原民會提出具體措施及期程，給族人看到有規劃的具體願景。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時46分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["江啟臣","張智倫","盧縣一","黃健豪","麥玉珍","黃仁","高金素梅","黃珊珊","吳思瑤","李坤城","沈伯洋","莊瑞雄","王美惠","羅美玲","陳永康","郭國文","林德福","陳冠廷","陳秀寳","李彥秀","吳琪銘"],"page_start":135,"meetingDate":["2025-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00004","1148701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00009"}}}