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0.999}, {\"word\": \"租\", \"start\": 683.238, \"end\": 683.398, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 683.398, \"end\": 684.559, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"貼\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 684.559, \"end\": 684.759, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 684.759, \"end\": 684.919, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 684.919, \"end\": 685.06, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 685.06, \"end\": 685.22, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 685.22, \"end\": 685.24, \"score\": 0.983}]}, {\"start\": 685.78, \"end\": 708.295, \"text\": \"直接興建社宅的部分是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的我們有一些地方政府已經停止興建社會住宅表示說他們在取得土地所有資金取得上面確實有非常大的困擾所以我們現在 你是中央的主管機關你應該三位計畫把社宅當成最重要的計畫然後跟地方政府一起來努力不是嗎社宅有很多種 直接興建是一種包租代管也是一種\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 685.78, \"end\": 686.18, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 686.18, \"end\": 686.2, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"興\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 686.2, \"end\": 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00:00:08,385\n謝謝主席我請卓院長請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長早安我想今天大家都非常關心新清安貸款大概從去年您上任之後其實有一陣亂流這是2023年8月當時賴清德總統為了年輕人的選票\n\n2\n00:00:35,203 --> 00:01:02,172\n當然還有建商他們推出的所謂行刑案貸款放寬了貸款額度還有期限以及利息補貼經過一年多了這些狀況目前為止現在在央行第七波信用管制之下其實這兩個政策是相互矛盾的所以現在的問題在於說你可以看到居住正義是賴總統的政見也是您的立場對嗎\n\n3\n00:01:03,991 --> 00:01:32,028\n我們共同維護我講維護也是一樣的但是居住正義不能只做一半現在的問題就在於您看到新青安貸款開始上路其實我們的房價已經高漲了15.4%也就是說我們在同時讓年輕人享受有房子的情況下我們的房價反而不跌反漲而且如果從民進黨執政的話房價是漲了33%所以院長你對\n\n4\n00:01:33,467 --> 00:01:41,776\n所謂的居住正義在您的認知裡面房價漲到33%新興安之後又漲了15%您的看法是什麼\n\n5\n00:01:42,625 --> 00:02:10,182\n房價的漲幅其實因素很多不能單就一個因素來做討論我們的政見是讓房價更高讓年輕人拿更多的補貼是這個意思嗎年輕人第一次購物的時候能夠讓他有我們要讓年輕人有機會拿到房子所以我們給他一千萬的額度所以當時本來要八百萬的房子後來大家都改賣到一千萬建商荷包滿滿但是年輕人\n\n6\n00:02:11,362 --> 00:02:38,663\n我們有共同看到這個問題所以我們去年就做了一些管制所以在我們提出質詢之後內政部財政部開始查查到了人頭戶查到了出租戶所以查到了一千多戶要回了1.3億的補助這個是要給院長肯定但是同時民間團體也查到了超過50歲年收入超過300萬以上的\n\n7\n00:02:41,294 --> 00:02:47,062\n比較高所得的人也同時拿到了行情安補助院長這是怎麼回事\n\n8\n00:02:52,870 --> 00:03:11,025\n因為我們沒有排富所以我們讓很多年收入到三百萬的人也拿到了心情安補助這個政策是不是要檢討一下當初也應該在年齡上應該要有自己的考量所以心情安在明年就會實際就完成現在問題就來了明年七月就到期了會不會延長\n\n9\n00:03:11,866 --> 00:03:40,480\n不會有相同的方式延長會有相同的方式延長會有新的方式延長我們有另外的方式來針對青年的居住正義做不同的考量但是我覺得現行的方式應該檢討現行的方式我剛講人頭戶還有出租戶千萬不可以再發生不是錢給了貸了之後再去追回來這才太丟臉了因為核貸的時候都沒搞清楚第二個高所得甚至高年紀當然他沒有房子他應該有這個機會\n\n10\n00:03:41,841 --> 00:03:58,354\n但是所得上面的確是讓比較高所得的人也得到了相對的優惠補助這的確不是居住正義本來想要達到的目標會納入考量是如果你真的要新方法就要把高所得還有所謂的高年齡他本來就是比較社會經濟優勢的人\n\n11\n00:03:59,955 --> 00:04:25,931\n那新清安補助我們應該是當時的立法一旨是讓更多的年輕人有機會這兩個應該是要重新在你的所謂的新方法所以新方法是在明年七月會出來嗎我們會提早來設想我們必須設定更周延的條件更周延的這個監管的方式我們不要讓國人誤用了這個政策的美意所以我們延期的來看看我們一年是拿入宅基金補貼四十幾億耶\n\n12\n00:04:28,587 --> 00:04:31,595\n這是住宅基金的錢這本來是應該拿來蓋社宅的錢\n\n13\n00:04:32,874 --> 00:05:00,683\n現在的社宅怎麼回事啊我們想幫助的對象不想讓大家因為這樣誤用了政策的美意所以我們嚴謹的管理居住這一他是全面的他不會只有一個貸款另外一塊叫做社會住宅再加所謂的租金補貼他是一整套的可是我們現在的新青岸已經亂成一團第二個接下去剛剛講了如果新青岸去年明年截止我們一年目前是拿到將近45億的補助\n\n14\n00:05:02,694 --> 00:05:07,821\n住宅基金這不應該哇哇叫啊快沒錢了對吧所以沒辦法蓋社宅了是嗎\n\n15\n00:05:08,962 --> 00:05:35,549\n不能這樣講住宅基金如果需要的話我們還是會跟行政院你還是會往新興跟行政院給要錢不是新興安大概是住宅社會住宅的部分好7月不再補貼要換新方法但是新方法一樣會是動到我們住宅基金住宅基金的錢夠不夠現在不知道但是我要了一年的資料院長你520上任現在已經一年半了\n\n16\n00:05:36,582 --> 00:05:43,578\n這一年半我們的住宅尤其是設宅政策計畫還沒核定\n\n17\n00:05:45,202 --> 00:06:12,972\n蔡英文總統12萬戶9個月之內他就核定了然後113年說他完成12萬戶在他卸任之前的確某個程度總totally加一加是有大概達到這個數字賴清德總統說8年要直接興建13萬戶但是今年一年了你上任一年多了發包了多少發包了1600戶院長如果按照賴總統他的承諾\n\n18\n00:06:14,804 --> 00:06:38,257\n一年要蓋1.5萬戶如果你現在只蓋了1600萬戶他的八年要成十倍也就是賴清德總統要當80年才能做到13萬戶這是怎麼回事然後到今天為止我們跟你們要了N年的資料說我們的這個所謂的社宅新建計劃沒有核定所以沒有人敢編預算沒有人敢告訴我們什麼時候會蓋下一波的社宅\n\n19\n00:06:39,237 --> 00:06:48,185\n院長在你桌上很久了嗎還是內在部沒有送出來我們的包租貸管設宅包租貸管部分我們已經合併了包租貸管已經合併了直接興辦的部分因為過去\n\n20\n00:06:58,163 --> 00:07:14,493\n量出來之後有一些大筆的比較容易取得的土地大概用的差不多我們現在想多元的這個直接興辦包括明天的投入我沒有意見租金補貼本來就應該包租怪本來就應該那是另外一塊喔13萬戶是鐵打的總統的承諾這是一個莊嚴的承諾\n\n21\n00:07:19,397 --> 00:07:37,517\n這是一個對居住這一個最積極的立場擴大量能多元的方式來取得更多的土地要達到一百萬戶欸百萬社宅欸直接新辦的就是在總統八年任期當中的如果按照你現在一年只有一千多戶那你其實要當八十年\n\n22\n00:07:38,218 --> 00:07:52,374\n內政部現在針對多直接性辦公室我需要的是你告訴我時間表一年半了不核定所以沒有任何都督東西敢回文跟我說他下一波要蓋哪裡怎麼蓋蓋多少沒有任何資料可以回覆\n\n23\n00:07:53,475 --> 00:08:06,346\n其實問題是沒有上位計畫下位計畫沒有人敢回答我直接新建住宅的部分跟包租代管未來是屬於社宅的部分我們兩個要一起合併來看那未來我們還是以百萬戶的租屋家庭為主所以送到這個300億的13萬戶可能會縮水嗎我只問你13萬戶會不會縮水啊\n\n24\n00:08:12,581 --> 00:08:33,491\n目前為止我們的進度大概到目前為止今年只剩下百分之三十我們的預算還沒有執行結束那未來我們朝著五千戶到一萬戶一年為主一年五千戶到一萬戶八年也只能蓋不到十萬戶吧你要從去年開始算起來你不能從今年開始算那你去年蓋了多少戶我這邊看到你們發包只有一千六百戶啊\n\n25\n00:08:34,571 --> 00:09:01,832\n但是這個部分確實是賴總統任內發包的因為所有的基金的預算也是賴總統任內發包的所以我剛有跟委員報告我們未來在土地取得上面越來越困難的狀況之下會朝著賴總統的方式來取得社會主宰那這個對於進度正義也是另外一種承認做不到就不要再回答我說我們會往那個目標走如果只能蓋十萬戶就說十萬戶如果只能八萬戶就說八萬戶大家都知道很難\n\n26\n00:09:02,947 --> 00:09:28,408\n我們在台北市我們也蓋過很難所以13萬戶變成是沒有辦法核定的東西就把它說清楚不要再拿出來說我們有100萬戶沒有就沒有但是我們還是一樣我們的期待是行政院不可以嫌蓋社宅太貴因為你看租金補貼花了就沒有了明天給完錢\n\n27\n00:09:29,758 --> 00:09:54,842\n很多人目前為止租屋還是在不敢申請的不敢涉及的不敢涉戶口的還是大有人在所以租金補貼很多人是看得到吃不到但是你興建社宅政府留下了資產然後興建住宅如果我們有社宅達到5%的話我們是可以控制市場的租金的第三個我們如果有社宅我們其實是可以給弱勢的人租期保障\n\n28\n00:09:55,362 --> 00:10:18,042\n最重要的是我們有提供給弱勢的優先的空間現在的問題是如果租金補貼當然更簡單對你來說也很輕鬆蓋社宅本來就很難但這兩件事情院長我要說的是這是政府政策跟政府的承諾我們要選哪一個說清楚一年半了不能沒有態度啊\n\n29\n00:10:19,963 --> 00:10:42,279\n我們還是朝原來的目標在前進但當中土地取得困難我們要多元的方式政府的資金沒有辦法投入那麼多我們希望民間的資金也來投入那這個過程內政部正在做整盤的一個規劃我相信我也要求在這個規劃出來之後我們的量要實質上的增加\n\n30\n00:10:42,901 --> 00:11:01,257\n我们希望的是很具体化每天都说我朝那个方向前进然后都没有计划有计划才会有方向才会有预算才会有相关的后续现在连计划都没有核定我实在不知道怎么去了解你们后续的状况这是我作为一个民意代表我想要知道的事情\n\n31\n00:11:01,677 --> 00:11:25,240\n所以部長如果真的每年只能發報一萬戶就說清楚我們也可以接受大家好好來討論但是十三萬戶做不到我覺得也要誠實以對是我們會在滾動的政策上面的提供給委員參考資料但是從這個圖表可以看得出來我們還是希望社宅成為政府未來的資產而不是租金補貼發完就沒有了\n\n32\n00:11:25,780 --> 00:11:48,295\n直接興建社宅的部分是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的我們有一些地方政府已經停止興建社會住宅表示說他們在取得土地所有資金取得上面確實有非常大的困擾所以我們現在你是中央的主管機關你應該三位計畫把社宅當成最重要的計畫然後跟地方政府一起來努力不是嗎社宅有很多種直接興建是一種包租代管也是一種\n\n33\n00:11:48,775 --> 00:12:07,470\n如果我們可以從空餘物取得因為剛剛有立委在詢問的時候我們從包住帶管社宅的優勢也是社會住宅這些優勢是包住帶管做不到的這也是居住正義的一環我想委員可以用混動式的想法來了解這個社會住宅政策的推動其實這就是一個承諾啦居住正義不要做一半\n\n34\n00:12:08,482 --> 00:12:35,383\n居住正義如果總統這樣說8.13萬戶做一半也沒關係說出來但是現在有點在迴避國內政部管理直接興辦的計畫正在檢討核定多久可以給我個初步的答案國內政部加快速度目前我們的部分是12萬中央是6萬接近7萬地方只有5萬那你如果要檢討的部分的話我希望把包租貸款包括現在空移屋的取得讓它變成社會住宅也包含進來\n\n35\n00:12:36,204 --> 00:13:01,964\n我覺得對於年輕人來講這個才是最重要的而不是等三年五年十年以後像這樣天氣更好的社會住宅至少你告訴我我們下一年多少戶多少座我現在調不到任何資料這才是我的問題院長一個月之內給我一個初步的答案吧你們可以檢討檢討很久了好嗎下一個問題是內政部現在在討論的是所謂的虛憑改革不早對吧你們剛剛開過部會議嘛\n\n36\n00:13:05,078 --> 00:13:31,514\n虛憑院長知道什麼是虛憑嗎來院長你知道台灣人買房子買到的很大多30%到40%都叫虛憑嗎公共設施的價錢其實他都是用總價一坪多少錢來算並沒有把公共設施打個對折也就是說台北人以台北市來說我買30坪的房子可能有10坪到12坪是虛憑\n\n37\n00:13:33,237 --> 00:13:54,239\n然後一坪也是上百萬這個改革現在民間團體來說內政部也有相關的計畫目前看起來是有一些我是認為必要的公共設施當然有必要可是現在有太多沒必要的而且是灌水的而且是故意去提高這個房子的總價的\n\n38\n00:13:55,464 --> 00:14:24,494\n现在的需品改革部长你们有没有方向是我跟委员报告一下我们在跟相关的民意代表也在做沟通有关需品改革的部分原来我们所提供的包括说电梯或者是车道的这个部分但目前为止可能他们会认为在计算的方法上面尤其是价格上面的应该不要列入所谓的需品改革的方向但是我希望我们的地政单位能够再去思考一下我们如果用时评时售也就是说我站在消费者的\n\n39\n00:14:24,514 --> 00:14:53,394\n在國外都做得到啊為什麼在台灣這麼困難啊站在消費者的立場如果可以保障是時評時售的話我們會再跟相關的單位包括民意代表來做最好的溝通就是很簡單做跟不做而已啦都做得到報告委員在推動的過程當中我們也希望這要有政府很強的意志力來推動啊台灣大家都希望虛皮每個房子都長很貴當然很好啊可是面對的是假設我說居住\n\n40\n00:14:53,914 --> 00:15:22,423\n有爭議的話虛憑改革可能是政府要必須面對的事情內政部正在努力當中所以這也是我希望院長在這個年底前這個部分也給我初步的一個回應好嗎我們會把構想跟現在進度跟委員報告是下一個是央行開始信用管制有一些新聞媒體陸續的說我們現在有很多的爛尾樓這爛尾樓怎麼回事部長嚴重嗎嚴不嚴重建商管理機制應該\n\n41\n00:15:36,624 --> 00:15:37,186\n好謝謝黃委員謝謝卓院長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5343\t8385\t謝謝主席 我請卓院長請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長早安我想今天大家都非常關心新清安貸款大概從去年您上任之後其實有一陣亂流這是2023年8月當時賴清德總統為了年輕人的選票\n35203\t62172\t當然還有建商他們推出的所謂行刑案貸款放寬了貸款額度還有期限以及利息補貼經過一年多了這些狀況目前為止現在在央行第七波信用管制之下其實這兩個政策是相互矛盾的所以現在的問題在於說你可以看到居住正義是賴總統的政見也是您的立場 對嗎\n63991\t92028\t我們共同維護我講維護也是一樣的但是居住正義不能只做一半現在的問題就在於您看到新青安貸款開始上路其實我們的房價已經高漲了15.4%也就是說我們在同時讓年輕人享受有房子的情況下我們的房價反而不跌反漲而且如果從民進黨執政的話房價是漲了33%所以院長你對\n93467\t101776\t所謂的居住正義在您的認知裡面房價漲到33%新興安之後又漲了15%您的看法是什麼\n102625\t130182\t房價的漲幅其實因素很多不能單就一個因素來做討論我們的政見是讓房價更高讓年輕人拿更多的補貼是這個意思嗎年輕人第一次購物的時候能夠讓他有我們要讓年輕人有機會拿到房子所以我們給他一千萬的額度所以當時本來要八百萬的房子後來大家都改賣到一千萬建商荷包滿滿但是年輕人\n131362\t158663\t我們有共同看到這個問題所以我們去年就做了一些管制所以在我們提出質詢之後內政部財政部開始查查到了人頭戶查到了出租戶所以查到了一千多戶要回了1.3億的補助這個是要給院長肯定但是同時民間團體也查到了超過50歲年收入超過300萬以上的\n161294\t167062\t比較高所得的人也同時拿到了行情安補助院長這是怎麼回事\n172870\t191025\t因為我們沒有排富所以我們讓很多年收入到三百萬的人也拿到了心情安補助這個政策是不是要檢討一下當初也應該在年齡上應該要有自己的考量所以心情安在明年就會實際就完成現在問題就來了明年七月就到期了會不會延長\n191866\t220480\t不會有相同的方式延長會有相同的方式延長會有新的方式延長我們有另外的方式來針對青年的居住正義做不同的考量但是我覺得現行的方式應該檢討現行的方式我剛講人頭戶還有出租戶千萬不可以再發生不是錢給了貸了之後再去追回來這才太丟臉了因為核貸的時候都沒搞清楚第二個高所得甚至高年紀當然他沒有房子他應該有這個機會\n221841\t238354\t但是所得上面的確是讓比較高所得的人也得到了相對的優惠補助這的確不是居住正義本來想要達到的目標會納入考量是如果你真的要新方法就要把高所得還有所謂的高年齡他本來就是比較社會經濟優勢的人\n239955\t265931\t那新清安補助我們應該是當時的立法一旨是讓更多的年輕人有機會這兩個應該是要重新在你的所謂的新方法所以新方法是在明年七月會出來嗎我們會提早來設想我們必須設定更周延的條件更周延的這個監管的方式我們不要讓國人誤用了這個政策的美意所以我們延期的來看看我們一年是拿入宅基金補貼四十幾億耶\n268587\t271595\t這是住宅基金的錢這本來是應該拿來蓋社宅的錢\n272874\t300683\t現在的社宅怎麼回事啊我們想幫助的對象不想讓大家因為這樣誤用了政策的美意所以我們嚴謹的管理居住這一他是全面的他不會只有一個貸款另外一塊叫做社會住宅再加所謂的租金補貼他是一整套的可是我們現在的新青岸已經亂成一團第二個接下去剛剛講了如果新青岸去年明年截止我們一年目前是拿到將近45億的補助\n302694\t307821\t住宅基金這不應該哇哇叫啊快沒錢了對吧所以沒辦法蓋社宅了是嗎\n308962\t335549\t不能這樣講住宅基金如果需要的話我們還是會跟行政院你還是會往新興跟行政院給要錢不是新興安大概是住宅社會住宅的部分好7月不再補貼要換新方法但是新方法一樣會是動到我們住宅基金住宅基金的錢夠不夠現在不知道但是我要了一年的資料院長你520上任現在已經一年半了\n336582\t343578\t這一年半我們的住宅尤其是設宅政策計畫還沒核定\n345202\t372972\t蔡英文總統12萬戶9個月之內他就核定了然後113年說他完成12萬戶在他卸任之前的確某個程度總totally加一加是有大概達到這個數字賴清德總統說8年要直接興建13萬戶但是今年一年了你上任一年多了發包了多少發包了1600戶院長如果按照賴總統他的承諾\n374804\t398257\t一年要蓋1.5萬戶如果你現在只蓋了1600萬戶他的八年要成十倍也就是賴清德總統要當80年才能做到13萬戶這是怎麼回事然後到今天為止我們跟你們要了N年的資料說我們的這個所謂的社宅新建計劃沒有核定所以沒有人敢編預算沒有人敢告訴我們什麼時候會蓋下一波的社宅\n399237\t408185\t院長在你桌上很久了嗎還是內在部沒有送出來我們的包租貸管設宅包租貸管部分我們已經合併了包租貸管已經合併了直接興辦的部分因為過去\n418163\t434493\t量出來之後有一些大筆的比較容易取得的土地大概用的差不多我們現在想多元的這個直接興辦包括明天的投入我沒有意見租金補貼本來就應該包租怪本來就應該那是另外一塊喔13萬戶是鐵打的總統的承諾這是一個莊嚴的承諾\n439397\t457517\t這是一個對居住這一個最積極的立場擴大量能 多元的方式來取得更多的土地要達到一百萬戶欸 百萬社宅欸直接新辦的 就是在總統八年任期當中的如果按照你現在一年只有一千多戶那你其實要當八十年\n458218\t472374\t內政部現在針對多直接性辦公室我需要的是你告訴我時間表一年半了不核定所以沒有任何都督東西敢回文跟我說他下一波要蓋哪裡怎麼蓋蓋多少沒有任何資料可以回覆\n473475\t486346\t其實問題是沒有上位計畫下位計畫沒有人敢回答我直接新建住宅的部分跟包租代管未來是屬於社宅的部分我們兩個要一起合併來看那未來我們還是以百萬戶的租屋家庭為主所以送到這個300億的13萬戶可能會縮水嗎我只問你13萬戶會不會縮水啊\n492581\t513491\t目前為止我們的進度大概到目前為止今年只剩下百分之三十我們的預算還沒有執行結束那未來我們朝著五千戶到一萬戶一年為主一年五千戶到一萬戶八年也只能蓋不到十萬戶吧你要從去年開始算起來你不能從今年開始算那你去年蓋了多少戶我這邊看到你們發包只有一千六百戶啊\n514571\t541832\t但是這個部分確實是賴總統任內發包的因為所有的基金的預算也是賴總統任內發包的所以我剛有跟委員報告我們未來在土地取得上面越來越困難的狀況之下會朝著賴總統的方式來取得社會主宰那這個對於進度正義也是另外一種承認做不到就不要再回答我說我們會往那個目標走如果只能蓋十萬戶就說十萬戶如果只能八萬戶就說八萬戶大家都知道很難\n542947\t568408\t我們在台北市我們也蓋過很難所以13萬戶變成是沒有辦法核定的東西就把它說清楚不要再拿出來說我們有100萬戶沒有就沒有但是我們還是一樣我們的期待是行政院不可以嫌蓋社宅太貴因為你看租金補貼花了就沒有了明天給完錢\n569758\t594842\t很多人目前為止租屋還是在不敢申請的不敢涉及的不敢涉戶口的還是大有人在所以租金補貼很多人是看得到吃不到但是你興建社宅政府留下了資產然後興建住宅如果我們有社宅達到5%的話我們是可以控制市場的租金的第三個我們如果有社宅我們其實是可以給弱勢的人租期保障\n595362\t618042\t最重要的是我們有提供給弱勢的優先的空間現在的問題是如果租金補貼當然更簡單對你來說也很輕鬆蓋社宅本來就很難但這兩件事情院長我要說的是這是政府政策跟政府的承諾我們要選哪一個說清楚一年半了不能沒有態度啊\n619963\t642279\t我們還是朝原來的目標在前進但當中土地取得困難我們要多元的方式政府的資金沒有辦法投入那麼多我們希望民間的資金也來投入那這個過程內政部正在做整盤的一個規劃我相信我也要求在這個規劃出來之後我們的量要實質上的增加\n642901\t661257\t我们希望的是很具体化每天都说我朝那个方向前进然后都没有计划有计划才会有方向才会有预算才会有相关的后续现在连计划都没有核定我实在不知道怎么去了解你们后续的状况这是我作为一个民意代表我想要知道的事情\n661677\t685240\t所以部長如果真的每年只能發報一萬戶就說清楚我們也可以接受大家好好來討論但是十三萬戶做不到我覺得也要誠實以對是我們會在滾動的政策上面的提供給委員參考資料但是從這個圖表可以看得出來我們還是希望社宅成為政府未來的資產而不是租金補貼發完就沒有了\n685780\t708295\t直接興建社宅的部分是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的我們有一些地方政府已經停止興建社會住宅表示說他們在取得土地所有資金取得上面確實有非常大的困擾所以我們現在 你是中央的主管機關你應該三位計畫把社宅當成最重要的計畫然後跟地方政府一起來努力不是嗎社宅有很多種 直接興建是一種包租代管也是一種\n708775\t727470\t如果我們可以從空餘物取得因為剛剛有立委在詢問的時候我們從包住帶管 社宅的優勢也是社會住宅這些優勢是包住帶管做不到的這也是居住正義的一環我想委員可以用混動式的想法來了解這個社會住宅政策的推動其實這就是一個承諾啦居住正義不要做一半\n728482\t755383\t居住正義如果總統這樣說8.13萬戶做一半也沒關係說出來但是現在有點在迴避國內政部管理直接興辦的計畫正在檢討核定多久可以給我個初步的答案國內政部加快速度目前我們的部分是12萬中央是6萬接近7萬地方只有5萬那你如果要檢討的部分的話我希望把包租貸款包括現在空移屋的取得讓它變成社會住宅也包含進來\n756204\t781964\t我覺得對於年輕人來講這個才是最重要的而不是等三年 五年 十年以後像這樣天氣更好的社會住宅至少你告訴我我們下一年多少戶多少座我現在調不到任何資料這才是我的問題 院長一個月之內給我一個初步的答案吧你們可以檢討 檢討很久了 好嗎下一個問題是內政部現在在討論的是所謂的虛憑改革不早 對吧你們剛剛開過部會議嘛\n785078\t811514\t虛憑 院長知道什麼是虛憑嗎來 院長你知道台灣人買房子買到的很大多30%到40%都叫虛憑嗎公共設施的價錢其實他都是用總價一坪多少錢來算並沒有把公共設施打個對折也就是說台北人以台北市來說我買30坪的房子可能有10坪到12坪是虛憑\n813237\t834239\t然後一坪也是上百萬這個改革現在民間團體來說內政部也有相關的計畫目前看起來是有一些我是認為必要的公共設施當然有必要可是現在有太多沒必要的而且是灌水的而且是故意去提高這個房子的總價的\n835464\t864494\t现在的需品改革部长你们有没有方向是我跟委员报告一下我们在跟相关的民意代表也在做沟通有关需品改革的部分原来我们所提供的包括说电梯或者是车道的这个部分但目前为止可能他们会认为在计算的方法上面尤其是价格上面的应该不要列入所谓的需品改革的方向但是我希望我们的地政单位能够再去思考一下我们如果用时评时售也就是说我站在消费者的\n864514\t893394\t在國外都做得到啊為什麼在台灣這麼困難啊站在消費者的立場如果可以保障是時評時售的話我們會再跟相關的單位包括民意代表來做最好的溝通就是很簡單做跟不做而已啦都做得到報告委員在推動的過程當中我們也希望這要有政府很強的意志力來推動啊台灣大家都希望虛皮每個房子都長很貴當然很好啊可是面對的是假設我說居住\n893914\t922423\t有爭議的話虛憑改革可能是政府要必須面對的事情內政部正在努力當中所以這也是我希望院長在這個年底前這個部分也給我初步的一個回應好嗎我們會把構想跟現在進度跟委員報告是下一個是央行開始信用管制有一些新聞媒體陸續的說我們現在有很多的爛尾樓這爛尾樓怎麼回事部長嚴重嗎嚴不嚴重建商管理機制應該\n936624\t937186\t好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝卓院長\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我請卓院長請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長早安我想今天大家都非常關心新清安貸款大概從去年您上任之後其實有一陣亂流這是2023年8月當時賴清德總統為了年輕人的選票\n當然還有建商他們推出的所謂行刑案貸款放寬了貸款額度還有期限以及利息補貼經過一年多了這些狀況目前為止現在在央行第七波信用管制之下其實這兩個政策是相互矛盾的所以現在的問題在於說你可以看到居住正義是賴總統的政見也是您的立場 對嗎\n我們共同維護我講維護也是一樣的但是居住正義不能只做一半現在的問題就在於您看到新青安貸款開始上路其實我們的房價已經高漲了15.4%也就是說我們在同時讓年輕人享受有房子的情況下我們的房價反而不跌反漲而且如果從民進黨執政的話房價是漲了33%所以院長你對\n所謂的居住正義在您的認知裡面房價漲到33%新興安之後又漲了15%您的看法是什麼\n房價的漲幅其實因素很多不能單就一個因素來做討論我們的政見是讓房價更高讓年輕人拿更多的補貼是這個意思嗎年輕人第一次購物的時候能夠讓他有我們要讓年輕人有機會拿到房子所以我們給他一千萬的額度所以當時本來要八百萬的房子後來大家都改賣到一千萬建商荷包滿滿但是年輕人\n我們有共同看到這個問題所以我們去年就做了一些管制所以在我們提出質詢之後內政部財政部開始查查到了人頭戶查到了出租戶所以查到了一千多戶要回了1.3億的補助這個是要給院長肯定但是同時民間團體也查到了超過50歲年收入超過300萬以上的\n比較高所得的人也同時拿到了行情安補助院長這是怎麼回事\n因為我們沒有排富所以我們讓很多年收入到三百萬的人也拿到了心情安補助這個政策是不是要檢討一下當初也應該在年齡上應該要有自己的考量所以心情安在明年就會實際就完成現在問題就來了明年七月就到期了會不會延長\n不會有相同的方式延長會有相同的方式延長會有新的方式延長我們有另外的方式來針對青年的居住正義做不同的考量但是我覺得現行的方式應該檢討現行的方式我剛講人頭戶還有出租戶千萬不可以再發生不是錢給了貸了之後再去追回來這才太丟臉了因為核貸的時候都沒搞清楚第二個高所得甚至高年紀當然他沒有房子他應該有這個機會\n但是所得上面的確是讓比較高所得的人也得到了相對的優惠補助這的確不是居住正義本來想要達到的目標會納入考量是如果你真的要新方法就要把高所得還有所謂的高年齡他本來就是比較社會經濟優勢的人\n那新清安補助我們應該是當時的立法一旨是讓更多的年輕人有機會這兩個應該是要重新在你的所謂的新方法所以新方法是在明年七月會出來嗎我們會提早來設想我們必須設定更周延的條件更周延的這個監管的方式我們不要讓國人誤用了這個政策的美意所以我們延期的來看看我們一年是拿入宅基金補貼四十幾億耶\n這是住宅基金的錢這本來是應該拿來蓋社宅的錢\n現在的社宅怎麼回事啊我們想幫助的對象不想讓大家因為這樣誤用了政策的美意所以我們嚴謹的管理居住這一他是全面的他不會只有一個貸款另外一塊叫做社會住宅再加所謂的租金補貼他是一整套的可是我們現在的新青岸已經亂成一團第二個接下去剛剛講了如果新青岸去年明年截止我們一年目前是拿到將近45億的補助\n住宅基金這不應該哇哇叫啊快沒錢了對吧所以沒辦法蓋社宅了是嗎\n不能這樣講住宅基金如果需要的話我們還是會跟行政院你還是會往新興跟行政院給要錢不是新興安大概是住宅社會住宅的部分好7月不再補貼要換新方法但是新方法一樣會是動到我們住宅基金住宅基金的錢夠不夠現在不知道但是我要了一年的資料院長你520上任現在已經一年半了\n這一年半我們的住宅尤其是設宅政策計畫還沒核定\n蔡英文總統12萬戶9個月之內他就核定了然後113年說他完成12萬戶在他卸任之前的確某個程度總totally加一加是有大概達到這個數字賴清德總統說8年要直接興建13萬戶但是今年一年了你上任一年多了發包了多少發包了1600戶院長如果按照賴總統他的承諾\n一年要蓋1.5萬戶如果你現在只蓋了1600萬戶他的八年要成十倍也就是賴清德總統要當80年才能做到13萬戶這是怎麼回事然後到今天為止我們跟你們要了N年的資料說我們的這個所謂的社宅新建計劃沒有核定所以沒有人敢編預算沒有人敢告訴我們什麼時候會蓋下一波的社宅\n院長在你桌上很久了嗎還是內在部沒有送出來我們的包租貸管設宅包租貸管部分我們已經合併了包租貸管已經合併了直接興辦的部分因為過去\n量出來之後有一些大筆的比較容易取得的土地大概用的差不多我們現在想多元的這個直接興辦包括明天的投入我沒有意見租金補貼本來就應該包租怪本來就應該那是另外一塊喔13萬戶是鐵打的總統的承諾這是一個莊嚴的承諾\n這是一個對居住這一個最積極的立場擴大量能 多元的方式來取得更多的土地要達到一百萬戶欸 百萬社宅欸直接新辦的 就是在總統八年任期當中的如果按照你現在一年只有一千多戶那你其實要當八十年\n內政部現在針對多直接性辦公室我需要的是你告訴我時間表一年半了不核定所以沒有任何都督東西敢回文跟我說他下一波要蓋哪裡怎麼蓋蓋多少沒有任何資料可以回覆\n其實問題是沒有上位計畫下位計畫沒有人敢回答我直接新建住宅的部分跟包租代管未來是屬於社宅的部分我們兩個要一起合併來看那未來我們還是以百萬戶的租屋家庭為主所以送到這個300億的13萬戶可能會縮水嗎我只問你13萬戶會不會縮水啊\n目前為止我們的進度大概到目前為止今年只剩下百分之三十我們的預算還沒有執行結束那未來我們朝著五千戶到一萬戶一年為主一年五千戶到一萬戶八年也只能蓋不到十萬戶吧你要從去年開始算起來你不能從今年開始算那你去年蓋了多少戶我這邊看到你們發包只有一千六百戶啊\n但是這個部分確實是賴總統任內發包的因為所有的基金的預算也是賴總統任內發包的所以我剛有跟委員報告我們未來在土地取得上面越來越困難的狀況之下會朝著賴總統的方式來取得社會主宰那這個對於進度正義也是另外一種承認做不到就不要再回答我說我們會往那個目標走如果只能蓋十萬戶就說十萬戶如果只能八萬戶就說八萬戶大家都知道很難\n我們在台北市我們也蓋過很難所以13萬戶變成是沒有辦法核定的東西就把它說清楚不要再拿出來說我們有100萬戶沒有就沒有但是我們還是一樣我們的期待是行政院不可以嫌蓋社宅太貴因為你看租金補貼花了就沒有了明天給完錢\n很多人目前為止租屋還是在不敢申請的不敢涉及的不敢涉戶口的還是大有人在所以租金補貼很多人是看得到吃不到但是你興建社宅政府留下了資產然後興建住宅如果我們有社宅達到5%的話我們是可以控制市場的租金的第三個我們如果有社宅我們其實是可以給弱勢的人租期保障\n最重要的是我們有提供給弱勢的優先的空間現在的問題是如果租金補貼當然更簡單對你來說也很輕鬆蓋社宅本來就很難但這兩件事情院長我要說的是這是政府政策跟政府的承諾我們要選哪一個說清楚一年半了不能沒有態度啊\n我們還是朝原來的目標在前進但當中土地取得困難我們要多元的方式政府的資金沒有辦法投入那麼多我們希望民間的資金也來投入那這個過程內政部正在做整盤的一個規劃我相信我也要求在這個規劃出來之後我們的量要實質上的增加\n我们希望的是很具体化每天都说我朝那个方向前进然后都没有计划有计划才会有方向才会有预算才会有相关的后续现在连计划都没有核定我实在不知道怎么去了解你们后续的状况这是我作为一个民意代表我想要知道的事情\n所以部長如果真的每年只能發報一萬戶就說清楚我們也可以接受大家好好來討論但是十三萬戶做不到我覺得也要誠實以對是我們會在滾動的政策上面的提供給委員參考資料但是從這個圖表可以看得出來我們還是希望社宅成為政府未來的資產而不是租金補貼發完就沒有了\n直接興建社宅的部分是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的我們有一些地方政府已經停止興建社會住宅表示說他們在取得土地所有資金取得上面確實有非常大的困擾所以我們現在 你是中央的主管機關你應該三位計畫把社宅當成最重要的計畫然後跟地方政府一起來努力不是嗎社宅有很多種 直接興建是一種包租代管也是一種\n如果我們可以從空餘物取得因為剛剛有立委在詢問的時候我們從包住帶管 社宅的優勢也是社會住宅這些優勢是包住帶管做不到的這也是居住正義的一環我想委員可以用混動式的想法來了解這個社會住宅政策的推動其實這就是一個承諾啦居住正義不要做一半\n居住正義如果總統這樣說8.13萬戶做一半也沒關係說出來但是現在有點在迴避國內政部管理直接興辦的計畫正在檢討核定多久可以給我個初步的答案國內政部加快速度目前我們的部分是12萬中央是6萬接近7萬地方只有5萬那你如果要檢討的部分的話我希望把包租貸款包括現在空移屋的取得讓它變成社會住宅也包含進來\n我覺得對於年輕人來講這個才是最重要的而不是等三年 五年 十年以後像這樣天氣更好的社會住宅至少你告訴我我們下一年多少戶多少座我現在調不到任何資料這才是我的問題 院長一個月之內給我一個初步的答案吧你們可以檢討 檢討很久了 好嗎下一個問題是內政部現在在討論的是所謂的虛憑改革不早 對吧你們剛剛開過部會議嘛\n虛憑 院長知道什麼是虛憑嗎來 院長你知道台灣人買房子買到的很大多30%到40%都叫虛憑嗎公共設施的價錢其實他都是用總價一坪多少錢來算並沒有把公共設施打個對折也就是說台北人以台北市來說我買30坪的房子可能有10坪到12坪是虛憑\n然後一坪也是上百萬這個改革現在民間團體來說內政部也有相關的計畫目前看起來是有一些我是認為必要的公共設施當然有必要可是現在有太多沒必要的而且是灌水的而且是故意去提高這個房子的總價的\n现在的需品改革部长你们有没有方向是我跟委员报告一下我们在跟相关的民意代表也在做沟通有关需品改革的部分原来我们所提供的包括说电梯或者是车道的这个部分但目前为止可能他们会认为在计算的方法上面尤其是价格上面的应该不要列入所谓的需品改革的方向但是我希望我们的地政单位能够再去思考一下我们如果用时评时售也就是说我站在消费者的\n在國外都做得到啊為什麼在台灣這麼困難啊站在消費者的立場如果可以保障是時評時售的話我們會再跟相關的單位包括民意代表來做最好的溝通就是很簡單做跟不做而已啦都做得到報告委員在推動的過程當中我們也希望這要有政府很強的意志力來推動啊台灣大家都希望虛皮每個房子都長很貴當然很好啊可是面對的是假設我說居住\n有爭議的話虛憑改革可能是政府要必須面對的事情內政部正在努力當中所以這也是我希望院長在這個年底前這個部分也給我初步的一個回應好嗎我們會把構想跟現在進度跟委員報告是下一個是央行開始信用管制有一些新聞媒體陸續的說我們現在有很多的爛尾樓這爛尾樓怎麼回事部長嚴重嗎嚴不嚴重建商管理機制應該\n好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝卓院長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.343 --> 00:08.385\n謝謝主席我請卓院長請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長早安我想今天大家都非常關心新清安貸款大概從去年您上任之後其實有一陣亂流這是2023年8月當時賴清德總統為了年輕人的選票\n\n00:35.203 --> 01:02.172\n當然還有建商他們推出的所謂行刑案貸款放寬了貸款額度還有期限以及利息補貼經過一年多了這些狀況目前為止現在在央行第七波信用管制之下其實這兩個政策是相互矛盾的所以現在的問題在於說你可以看到居住正義是賴總統的政見也是您的立場對嗎\n\n01:03.991 --> 01:32.028\n我們共同維護我講維護也是一樣的但是居住正義不能只做一半現在的問題就在於您看到新青安貸款開始上路其實我們的房價已經高漲了15.4%也就是說我們在同時讓年輕人享受有房子的情況下我們的房價反而不跌反漲而且如果從民進黨執政的話房價是漲了33%所以院長你對\n\n01:33.467 --> 01:41.776\n所謂的居住正義在您的認知裡面房價漲到33%新興安之後又漲了15%您的看法是什麼\n\n01:42.625 --> 02:10.182\n房價的漲幅其實因素很多不能單就一個因素來做討論我們的政見是讓房價更高讓年輕人拿更多的補貼是這個意思嗎年輕人第一次購物的時候能夠讓他有我們要讓年輕人有機會拿到房子所以我們給他一千萬的額度所以當時本來要八百萬的房子後來大家都改賣到一千萬建商荷包滿滿但是年輕人\n\n02:11.362 --> 02:38.663\n我們有共同看到這個問題所以我們去年就做了一些管制所以在我們提出質詢之後內政部財政部開始查查到了人頭戶查到了出租戶所以查到了一千多戶要回了1.3億的補助這個是要給院長肯定但是同時民間團體也查到了超過50歲年收入超過300萬以上的\n\n02:41.294 --> 02:47.062\n比較高所得的人也同時拿到了行情安補助院長這是怎麼回事\n\n02:52.870 --> 03:11.025\n因為我們沒有排富所以我們讓很多年收入到三百萬的人也拿到了心情安補助這個政策是不是要檢討一下當初也應該在年齡上應該要有自己的考量所以心情安在明年就會實際就完成現在問題就來了明年七月就到期了會不會延長\n\n03:11.866 --> 03:40.480\n不會有相同的方式延長會有相同的方式延長會有新的方式延長我們有另外的方式來針對青年的居住正義做不同的考量但是我覺得現行的方式應該檢討現行的方式我剛講人頭戶還有出租戶千萬不可以再發生不是錢給了貸了之後再去追回來這才太丟臉了因為核貸的時候都沒搞清楚第二個高所得甚至高年紀當然他沒有房子他應該有這個機會\n\n03:41.841 --> 03:58.354\n但是所得上面的確是讓比較高所得的人也得到了相對的優惠補助這的確不是居住正義本來想要達到的目標會納入考量是如果你真的要新方法就要把高所得還有所謂的高年齡他本來就是比較社會經濟優勢的人\n\n03:59.955 --> 04:25.931\n那新清安補助我們應該是當時的立法一旨是讓更多的年輕人有機會這兩個應該是要重新在你的所謂的新方法所以新方法是在明年七月會出來嗎我們會提早來設想我們必須設定更周延的條件更周延的這個監管的方式我們不要讓國人誤用了這個政策的美意所以我們延期的來看看我們一年是拿入宅基金補貼四十幾億耶\n\n04:28.587 --> 04:31.595\n這是住宅基金的錢這本來是應該拿來蓋社宅的錢\n\n04:32.874 --> 05:00.683\n現在的社宅怎麼回事啊我們想幫助的對象不想讓大家因為這樣誤用了政策的美意所以我們嚴謹的管理居住這一他是全面的他不會只有一個貸款另外一塊叫做社會住宅再加所謂的租金補貼他是一整套的可是我們現在的新青岸已經亂成一團第二個接下去剛剛講了如果新青岸去年明年截止我們一年目前是拿到將近45億的補助\n\n05:02.694 --> 05:07.821\n住宅基金這不應該哇哇叫啊快沒錢了對吧所以沒辦法蓋社宅了是嗎\n\n05:08.962 --> 05:35.549\n不能這樣講住宅基金如果需要的話我們還是會跟行政院你還是會往新興跟行政院給要錢不是新興安大概是住宅社會住宅的部分好7月不再補貼要換新方法但是新方法一樣會是動到我們住宅基金住宅基金的錢夠不夠現在不知道但是我要了一年的資料院長你520上任現在已經一年半了\n\n05:36.582 --> 05:43.578\n這一年半我們的住宅尤其是設宅政策計畫還沒核定\n\n05:45.202 --> 06:12.972\n蔡英文總統12萬戶9個月之內他就核定了然後113年說他完成12萬戶在他卸任之前的確某個程度總totally加一加是有大概達到這個數字賴清德總統說8年要直接興建13萬戶但是今年一年了你上任一年多了發包了多少發包了1600戶院長如果按照賴總統他的承諾\n\n06:14.804 --> 06:38.257\n一年要蓋1.5萬戶如果你現在只蓋了1600萬戶他的八年要成十倍也就是賴清德總統要當80年才能做到13萬戶這是怎麼回事然後到今天為止我們跟你們要了N年的資料說我們的這個所謂的社宅新建計劃沒有核定所以沒有人敢編預算沒有人敢告訴我們什麼時候會蓋下一波的社宅\n\n06:39.237 --> 06:48.185\n院長在你桌上很久了嗎還是內在部沒有送出來我們的包租貸管設宅包租貸管部分我們已經合併了包租貸管已經合併了直接興辦的部分因為過去\n\n06:58.163 --> 07:14.493\n量出來之後有一些大筆的比較容易取得的土地大概用的差不多我們現在想多元的這個直接興辦包括明天的投入我沒有意見租金補貼本來就應該包租怪本來就應該那是另外一塊喔13萬戶是鐵打的總統的承諾這是一個莊嚴的承諾\n\n07:19.397 --> 07:37.517\n這是一個對居住這一個最積極的立場擴大量能多元的方式來取得更多的土地要達到一百萬戶欸百萬社宅欸直接新辦的就是在總統八年任期當中的如果按照你現在一年只有一千多戶那你其實要當八十年\n\n07:38.218 --> 07:52.374\n內政部現在針對多直接性辦公室我需要的是你告訴我時間表一年半了不核定所以沒有任何都督東西敢回文跟我說他下一波要蓋哪裡怎麼蓋蓋多少沒有任何資料可以回覆\n\n07:53.475 --> 08:06.346\n其實問題是沒有上位計畫下位計畫沒有人敢回答我直接新建住宅的部分跟包租代管未來是屬於社宅的部分我們兩個要一起合併來看那未來我們還是以百萬戶的租屋家庭為主所以送到這個300億的13萬戶可能會縮水嗎我只問你13萬戶會不會縮水啊\n\n08:12.581 --> 08:33.491\n目前為止我們的進度大概到目前為止今年只剩下百分之三十我們的預算還沒有執行結束那未來我們朝著五千戶到一萬戶一年為主一年五千戶到一萬戶八年也只能蓋不到十萬戶吧你要從去年開始算起來你不能從今年開始算那你去年蓋了多少戶我這邊看到你們發包只有一千六百戶啊\n\n08:34.571 --> 09:01.832\n但是這個部分確實是賴總統任內發包的因為所有的基金的預算也是賴總統任內發包的所以我剛有跟委員報告我們未來在土地取得上面越來越困難的狀況之下會朝著賴總統的方式來取得社會主宰那這個對於進度正義也是另外一種承認做不到就不要再回答我說我們會往那個目標走如果只能蓋十萬戶就說十萬戶如果只能八萬戶就說八萬戶大家都知道很難\n\n09:02.947 --> 09:28.408\n我們在台北市我們也蓋過很難所以13萬戶變成是沒有辦法核定的東西就把它說清楚不要再拿出來說我們有100萬戶沒有就沒有但是我們還是一樣我們的期待是行政院不可以嫌蓋社宅太貴因為你看租金補貼花了就沒有了明天給完錢\n\n09:29.758 --> 09:54.842\n很多人目前為止租屋還是在不敢申請的不敢涉及的不敢涉戶口的還是大有人在所以租金補貼很多人是看得到吃不到但是你興建社宅政府留下了資產然後興建住宅如果我們有社宅達到5%的話我們是可以控制市場的租金的第三個我們如果有社宅我們其實是可以給弱勢的人租期保障\n\n09:55.362 --> 10:18.042\n最重要的是我們有提供給弱勢的優先的空間現在的問題是如果租金補貼當然更簡單對你來說也很輕鬆蓋社宅本來就很難但這兩件事情院長我要說的是這是政府政策跟政府的承諾我們要選哪一個說清楚一年半了不能沒有態度啊\n\n10:19.963 --> 10:42.279\n我們還是朝原來的目標在前進但當中土地取得困難我們要多元的方式政府的資金沒有辦法投入那麼多我們希望民間的資金也來投入那這個過程內政部正在做整盤的一個規劃我相信我也要求在這個規劃出來之後我們的量要實質上的增加\n\n10:42.901 --> 11:01.257\n我们希望的是很具体化每天都说我朝那个方向前进然后都没有计划有计划才会有方向才会有预算才会有相关的后续现在连计划都没有核定我实在不知道怎么去了解你们后续的状况这是我作为一个民意代表我想要知道的事情\n\n11:01.677 --> 11:25.240\n所以部長如果真的每年只能發報一萬戶就說清楚我們也可以接受大家好好來討論但是十三萬戶做不到我覺得也要誠實以對是我們會在滾動的政策上面的提供給委員參考資料但是從這個圖表可以看得出來我們還是希望社宅成為政府未來的資產而不是租金補貼發完就沒有了\n\n11:25.780 --> 11:48.295\n直接興建社宅的部分是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的我們有一些地方政府已經停止興建社會住宅表示說他們在取得土地所有資金取得上面確實有非常大的困擾所以我們現在你是中央的主管機關你應該三位計畫把社宅當成最重要的計畫然後跟地方政府一起來努力不是嗎社宅有很多種直接興建是一種包租代管也是一種\n\n11:48.775 --> 12:07.470\n如果我們可以從空餘物取得因為剛剛有立委在詢問的時候我們從包住帶管社宅的優勢也是社會住宅這些優勢是包住帶管做不到的這也是居住正義的一環我想委員可以用混動式的想法來了解這個社會住宅政策的推動其實這就是一個承諾啦居住正義不要做一半\n\n12:08.482 --> 12:35.383\n居住正義如果總統這樣說8.13萬戶做一半也沒關係說出來但是現在有點在迴避國內政部管理直接興辦的計畫正在檢討核定多久可以給我個初步的答案國內政部加快速度目前我們的部分是12萬中央是6萬接近7萬地方只有5萬那你如果要檢討的部分的話我希望把包租貸款包括現在空移屋的取得讓它變成社會住宅也包含進來\n\n12:36.204 --> 13:01.964\n我覺得對於年輕人來講這個才是最重要的而不是等三年五年十年以後像這樣天氣更好的社會住宅至少你告訴我我們下一年多少戶多少座我現在調不到任何資料這才是我的問題院長一個月之內給我一個初步的答案吧你們可以檢討檢討很久了好嗎下一個問題是內政部現在在討論的是所謂的虛憑改革不早對吧你們剛剛開過部會議嘛\n\n13:05.078 --> 13:31.514\n虛憑院長知道什麼是虛憑嗎來院長你知道台灣人買房子買到的很大多30%到40%都叫虛憑嗎公共設施的價錢其實他都是用總價一坪多少錢來算並沒有把公共設施打個對折也就是說台北人以台北市來說我買30坪的房子可能有10坪到12坪是虛憑\n\n13:33.237 --> 13:54.239\n然後一坪也是上百萬這個改革現在民間團體來說內政部也有相關的計畫目前看起來是有一些我是認為必要的公共設施當然有必要可是現在有太多沒必要的而且是灌水的而且是故意去提高這個房子的總價的\n\n13:55.464 --> 14:24.494\n现在的需品改革部长你们有没有方向是我跟委员报告一下我们在跟相关的民意代表也在做沟通有关需品改革的部分原来我们所提供的包括说电梯或者是车道的这个部分但目前为止可能他们会认为在计算的方法上面尤其是价格上面的应该不要列入所谓的需品改革的方向但是我希望我们的地政单位能够再去思考一下我们如果用时评时售也就是说我站在消费者的\n\n14:24.514 --> 14:53.394\n在國外都做得到啊為什麼在台灣這麼困難啊站在消費者的立場如果可以保障是時評時售的話我們會再跟相關的單位包括民意代表來做最好的溝通就是很簡單做跟不做而已啦都做得到報告委員在推動的過程當中我們也希望這要有政府很強的意志力來推動啊台灣大家都希望虛皮每個房子都長很貴當然很好啊可是面對的是假設我說居住\n\n14:53.914 --> 15:22.423\n有爭議的話虛憑改革可能是政府要必須面對的事情內政部正在努力當中所以這也是我希望院長在這個年底前這個部分也給我初步的一個回應好嗎我們會把構想跟現在進度跟委員報告是下一個是央行開始信用管制有一些新聞媒體陸續的說我們現在有很多的爛尾樓這爛尾樓怎麼回事部長嚴重嗎嚴不嚴重建商管理機制應該\n\n15:36.624 --> 15:37.186\n好謝謝黃委員謝謝卓院長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.343,"end":8.385,"text":"謝謝主席 我請卓院長請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長早安我想今天大家都非常關心新清安貸款大概從去年您上任之後其實有一陣亂流這是2023年8月當時賴清德總統為了年輕人的選票"},{"start":35.203,"end":62.172,"text":"當然還有建商他們推出的所謂行刑案貸款放寬了貸款額度還有期限以及利息補貼經過一年多了這些狀況目前為止現在在央行第七波信用管制之下其實這兩個政策是相互矛盾的所以現在的問題在於說你可以看到居住正義是賴總統的政見也是您的立場 對嗎"},{"start":63.991,"end":92.028,"text":"我們共同維護我講維護也是一樣的但是居住正義不能只做一半現在的問題就在於您看到新青安貸款開始上路其實我們的房價已經高漲了15.4%也就是說我們在同時讓年輕人享受有房子的情況下我們的房價反而不跌反漲而且如果從民進黨執政的話房價是漲了33%所以院長你對"},{"start":93.467,"end":101.776,"text":"所謂的居住正義在您的認知裡面房價漲到33%新興安之後又漲了15%您的看法是什麼"},{"start":102.625,"end":130.182,"text":"房價的漲幅其實因素很多不能單就一個因素來做討論我們的政見是讓房價更高讓年輕人拿更多的補貼是這個意思嗎年輕人第一次購物的時候能夠讓他有我們要讓年輕人有機會拿到房子所以我們給他一千萬的額度所以當時本來要八百萬的房子後來大家都改賣到一千萬建商荷包滿滿但是年輕人"},{"start":131.362,"end":158.663,"text":"我們有共同看到這個問題所以我們去年就做了一些管制所以在我們提出質詢之後內政部財政部開始查查到了人頭戶查到了出租戶所以查到了一千多戶要回了1.3億的補助這個是要給院長肯定但是同時民間團體也查到了超過50歲年收入超過300萬以上的"},{"start":161.294,"end":167.062,"text":"比較高所得的人也同時拿到了行情安補助院長這是怎麼回事"},{"start":172.87,"end":191.025,"text":"因為我們沒有排富所以我們讓很多年收入到三百萬的人也拿到了心情安補助這個政策是不是要檢討一下當初也應該在年齡上應該要有自己的考量所以心情安在明年就會實際就完成現在問題就來了明年七月就到期了會不會延長"},{"start":191.866,"end":220.48,"text":"不會有相同的方式延長會有相同的方式延長會有新的方式延長我們有另外的方式來針對青年的居住正義做不同的考量但是我覺得現行的方式應該檢討現行的方式我剛講人頭戶還有出租戶千萬不可以再發生不是錢給了貸了之後再去追回來這才太丟臉了因為核貸的時候都沒搞清楚第二個高所得甚至高年紀當然他沒有房子他應該有這個機會"},{"start":221.841,"end":238.354,"text":"但是所得上面的確是讓比較高所得的人也得到了相對的優惠補助這的確不是居住正義本來想要達到的目標會納入考量是如果你真的要新方法就要把高所得還有所謂的高年齡他本來就是比較社會經濟優勢的人"},{"start":239.955,"end":265.931,"text":"那新清安補助我們應該是當時的立法一旨是讓更多的年輕人有機會這兩個應該是要重新在你的所謂的新方法所以新方法是在明年七月會出來嗎我們會提早來設想我們必須設定更周延的條件更周延的這個監管的方式我們不要讓國人誤用了這個政策的美意所以我們延期的來看看我們一年是拿入宅基金補貼四十幾億耶"},{"start":268.587,"end":271.595,"text":"這是住宅基金的錢這本來是應該拿來蓋社宅的錢"},{"start":272.874,"end":300.683,"text":"現在的社宅怎麼回事啊我們想幫助的對象不想讓大家因為這樣誤用了政策的美意所以我們嚴謹的管理居住這一他是全面的他不會只有一個貸款另外一塊叫做社會住宅再加所謂的租金補貼他是一整套的可是我們現在的新青岸已經亂成一團第二個接下去剛剛講了如果新青岸去年明年截止我們一年目前是拿到將近45億的補助"},{"start":302.694,"end":307.821,"text":"住宅基金這不應該哇哇叫啊快沒錢了對吧所以沒辦法蓋社宅了是嗎"},{"start":308.962,"end":335.549,"text":"不能這樣講住宅基金如果需要的話我們還是會跟行政院你還是會往新興跟行政院給要錢不是新興安大概是住宅社會住宅的部分好7月不再補貼要換新方法但是新方法一樣會是動到我們住宅基金住宅基金的錢夠不夠現在不知道但是我要了一年的資料院長你520上任現在已經一年半了"},{"start":336.582,"end":343.578,"text":"這一年半我們的住宅尤其是設宅政策計畫還沒核定"},{"start":345.202,"end":372.972,"text":"蔡英文總統12萬戶9個月之內他就核定了然後113年說他完成12萬戶在他卸任之前的確某個程度總totally加一加是有大概達到這個數字賴清德總統說8年要直接興建13萬戶但是今年一年了你上任一年多了發包了多少發包了1600戶院長如果按照賴總統他的承諾"},{"start":374.804,"end":398.257,"text":"一年要蓋1.5萬戶如果你現在只蓋了1600萬戶他的八年要成十倍也就是賴清德總統要當80年才能做到13萬戶這是怎麼回事然後到今天為止我們跟你們要了N年的資料說我們的這個所謂的社宅新建計劃沒有核定所以沒有人敢編預算沒有人敢告訴我們什麼時候會蓋下一波的社宅"},{"start":399.237,"end":408.185,"text":"院長在你桌上很久了嗎還是內在部沒有送出來我們的包租貸管設宅包租貸管部分我們已經合併了包租貸管已經合併了直接興辦的部分因為過去"},{"start":418.163,"end":434.493,"text":"量出來之後有一些大筆的比較容易取得的土地大概用的差不多我們現在想多元的這個直接興辦包括明天的投入我沒有意見租金補貼本來就應該包租怪本來就應該那是另外一塊喔13萬戶是鐵打的總統的承諾這是一個莊嚴的承諾"},{"start":439.397,"end":457.517,"text":"這是一個對居住這一個最積極的立場擴大量能 多元的方式來取得更多的土地要達到一百萬戶欸 百萬社宅欸直接新辦的 就是在總統八年任期當中的如果按照你現在一年只有一千多戶那你其實要當八十年"},{"start":458.218,"end":472.374,"text":"內政部現在針對多直接性辦公室我需要的是你告訴我時間表一年半了不核定所以沒有任何都督東西敢回文跟我說他下一波要蓋哪裡怎麼蓋蓋多少沒有任何資料可以回覆"},{"start":473.475,"end":486.346,"text":"其實問題是沒有上位計畫下位計畫沒有人敢回答我直接新建住宅的部分跟包租代管未來是屬於社宅的部分我們兩個要一起合併來看那未來我們還是以百萬戶的租屋家庭為主所以送到這個300億的13萬戶可能會縮水嗎我只問你13萬戶會不會縮水啊"},{"start":492.581,"end":513.491,"text":"目前為止我們的進度大概到目前為止今年只剩下百分之三十我們的預算還沒有執行結束那未來我們朝著五千戶到一萬戶一年為主一年五千戶到一萬戶八年也只能蓋不到十萬戶吧你要從去年開始算起來你不能從今年開始算那你去年蓋了多少戶我這邊看到你們發包只有一千六百戶啊"},{"start":514.571,"end":541.832,"text":"但是這個部分確實是賴總統任內發包的因為所有的基金的預算也是賴總統任內發包的所以我剛有跟委員報告我們未來在土地取得上面越來越困難的狀況之下會朝著賴總統的方式來取得社會主宰那這個對於進度正義也是另外一種承認做不到就不要再回答我說我們會往那個目標走如果只能蓋十萬戶就說十萬戶如果只能八萬戶就說八萬戶大家都知道很難"},{"start":542.947,"end":568.408,"text":"我們在台北市我們也蓋過很難所以13萬戶變成是沒有辦法核定的東西就把它說清楚不要再拿出來說我們有100萬戶沒有就沒有但是我們還是一樣我們的期待是行政院不可以嫌蓋社宅太貴因為你看租金補貼花了就沒有了明天給完錢"},{"start":569.758,"end":594.842,"text":"很多人目前為止租屋還是在不敢申請的不敢涉及的不敢涉戶口的還是大有人在所以租金補貼很多人是看得到吃不到但是你興建社宅政府留下了資產然後興建住宅如果我們有社宅達到5%的話我們是可以控制市場的租金的第三個我們如果有社宅我們其實是可以給弱勢的人租期保障"},{"start":595.362,"end":618.042,"text":"最重要的是我們有提供給弱勢的優先的空間現在的問題是如果租金補貼當然更簡單對你來說也很輕鬆蓋社宅本來就很難但這兩件事情院長我要說的是這是政府政策跟政府的承諾我們要選哪一個說清楚一年半了不能沒有態度啊"},{"start":619.963,"end":642.279,"text":"我們還是朝原來的目標在前進但當中土地取得困難我們要多元的方式政府的資金沒有辦法投入那麼多我們希望民間的資金也來投入那這個過程內政部正在做整盤的一個規劃我相信我也要求在這個規劃出來之後我們的量要實質上的增加"},{"start":642.901,"end":661.257,"text":"我们希望的是很具体化每天都说我朝那个方向前进然后都没有计划有计划才会有方向才会有预算才会有相关的后续现在连计划都没有核定我实在不知道怎么去了解你们后续的状况这是我作为一个民意代表我想要知道的事情"},{"start":661.677,"end":685.24,"text":"所以部長如果真的每年只能發報一萬戶就說清楚我們也可以接受大家好好來討論但是十三萬戶做不到我覺得也要誠實以對是我們會在滾動的政策上面的提供給委員參考資料但是從這個圖表可以看得出來我們還是希望社宅成為政府未來的資產而不是租金補貼發完就沒有了"},{"start":685.78,"end":708.295,"text":"直接興建社宅的部分是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的我們有一些地方政府已經停止興建社會住宅表示說他們在取得土地所有資金取得上面確實有非常大的困擾所以我們現在 你是中央的主管機關你應該三位計畫把社宅當成最重要的計畫然後跟地方政府一起來努力不是嗎社宅有很多種 直接興建是一種包租代管也是一種"},{"start":708.775,"end":727.47,"text":"如果我們可以從空餘物取得因為剛剛有立委在詢問的時候我們從包住帶管 社宅的優勢也是社會住宅這些優勢是包住帶管做不到的這也是居住正義的一環我想委員可以用混動式的想法來了解這個社會住宅政策的推動其實這就是一個承諾啦居住正義不要做一半"},{"start":728.482,"end":755.383,"text":"居住正義如果總統這樣說8.13萬戶做一半也沒關係說出來但是現在有點在迴避國內政部管理直接興辦的計畫正在檢討核定多久可以給我個初步的答案國內政部加快速度目前我們的部分是12萬中央是6萬接近7萬地方只有5萬那你如果要檢討的部分的話我希望把包租貸款包括現在空移屋的取得讓它變成社會住宅也包含進來"},{"start":756.204,"end":781.964,"text":"我覺得對於年輕人來講這個才是最重要的而不是等三年 五年 十年以後像這樣天氣更好的社會住宅至少你告訴我我們下一年多少戶多少座我現在調不到任何資料這才是我的問題 院長一個月之內給我一個初步的答案吧你們可以檢討 檢討很久了 好嗎下一個問題是內政部現在在討論的是所謂的虛憑改革不早 對吧你們剛剛開過部會議嘛"},{"start":785.078,"end":811.514,"text":"虛憑 院長知道什麼是虛憑嗎來 院長你知道台灣人買房子買到的很大多30%到40%都叫虛憑嗎公共設施的價錢其實他都是用總價一坪多少錢來算並沒有把公共設施打個對折也就是說台北人以台北市來說我買30坪的房子可能有10坪到12坪是虛憑"},{"start":813.237,"end":834.239,"text":"然後一坪也是上百萬這個改革現在民間團體來說內政部也有相關的計畫目前看起來是有一些我是認為必要的公共設施當然有必要可是現在有太多沒必要的而且是灌水的而且是故意去提高這個房子的總價的"},{"start":835.464,"end":864.494,"text":"现在的需品改革部长你们有没有方向是我跟委员报告一下我们在跟相关的民意代表也在做沟通有关需品改革的部分原来我们所提供的包括说电梯或者是车道的这个部分但目前为止可能他们会认为在计算的方法上面尤其是价格上面的应该不要列入所谓的需品改革的方向但是我希望我们的地政单位能够再去思考一下我们如果用时评时售也就是说我站在消费者的"},{"start":864.514,"end":893.394,"text":"在國外都做得到啊為什麼在台灣這麼困難啊站在消費者的立場如果可以保障是時評時售的話我們會再跟相關的單位包括民意代表來做最好的溝通就是很簡單做跟不做而已啦都做得到報告委員在推動的過程當中我們也希望這要有政府很強的意志力來推動啊台灣大家都希望虛皮每個房子都長很貴當然很好啊可是面對的是假設我說居住"},{"start":893.914,"end":922.423,"text":"有爭議的話虛憑改革可能是政府要必須面對的事情內政部正在努力當中所以這也是我希望院長在這個年底前這個部分也給我初步的一個回應好嗎我們會把構想跟現在進度跟委員報告是下一個是央行開始信用管制有一些新聞媒體陸續的說我們現在有很多的爛尾樓這爛尾樓怎麼回事部長嚴重嗎嚴不嚴重建商管理機制應該"},{"start":936.624,"end":937.186,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝卓院長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時46分）謝謝主席。請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，早安。我想今天大家都非常關心新青安貸款，大概從去年您上任之後，其實有一陣亂流。這是2023年8月，當時賴清德總統為了年輕人的選票，當然還有建商，推出所謂的新青安貸款，放寬了貸款額度，還有期限以及利息補貼，經過一年多了，目前為止，現在在央行第七波信用管制之下，其實這兩個政策是相互矛盾的，所以現在的問題在於……你可以看到居住正義是賴總統的政見，也是您的立場，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們共同維護，我想委員也是一樣的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但是居住正義不能只做一半，現在的問題就在於新青安貸款開始上路後，房價已經高漲了15.4%，也就是我們讓年輕人享受有房子情況下的同時，房價不跌反漲，而且如果從民進黨執政開始起算的話，房價漲了33%。院長，所謂的居住正義在您的認知裡面，房價漲33%，新青安之後又漲了15%，您的看法是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：房價漲幅的因素很多，不能單就一個因素來討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們的政見是讓房價更高，讓年輕人拿更多的補貼，是這個意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的政見是讓年輕人第一次購屋的時候，可以用在自住的用途上……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們要讓年輕人有機會買到房子，所以給他1,000萬的額度，當時本來要800萬的房子，後來大家都改賣到1,000萬，讓建商荷包滿滿，但是年輕人……我要講的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有共同看到這個問題，所以去年就做了一些管制，在貸前、貸後管理上的管制……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以在我們提出質詢之後，內政部、財政部開始查，查到了人頭戶、查到了出租戶，查到了一千多戶，要回了1.3億的補助，這個要給院長肯定。但是同時民間團體也查到了超過50歲或年收入超過300萬以上、比較高所得的人，也同時拿到了新青安補助。院長，這是怎麼回事？因為我們沒有排富……"],["卓院長榮泰：當初是為了讓青年對居住的問題安心。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為沒有排富，所以讓很多年收入到300萬的人也拿到了新青安的補助，這個政策是不是要檢討一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初在年齡上應該要有這些考量，所以新青安在明年直接就會完成。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在問題就來了，明年7月就要到期了，會不會延長？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會有相同的方式延長，我們會有另外的方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：不會有相同的方式延長，會有新的方式延長？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會有另外的方式來針對青年的居住正義做不同的考量，但是我覺得現行的方式應該檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：現行的方式，我剛剛講，人頭戶還有出租戶千萬不可以再發生。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是錢給了、貸了之後再去追回來，這實在太丟臉了，核貸的時候都沒搞清楚。第二個，高所得、甚至高年紀，當然他沒有房子應該有這個機會，但是所得上面的確是讓比較高所得的人也得到了相對的優惠補助，這的確不是居住正義本來想要達到的目標。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會納入考量。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，如果你真的要用新方法，就要考量高所得還有所謂的高年齡，他本來就是比較社會經濟優勢的人，新青安補助當時的立法意旨應該是讓更多的年輕人有機會，這兩個應該是要重新在你所謂的新方法……所以新方法是在明年7月會出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會提早來設想，我們必須設定更周延的條件、更周延的監管方式，不要讓國人誤用了這個政策的美意，所以我們嚴謹來看待。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，我們一年是拿住宅基金補貼四十幾億，這是住宅基金的錢，這本來是應該拿來蓋社宅的錢，現在的社宅怎麼回事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們想幫助的對象，不想讓大家因為這樣誤用了政策的美意，所以我們要有嚴謹的管理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我要說的是，居住正義是全面的，它不會只有一個貸款，另外一塊叫做社會住宅，再加上所謂的租金補貼，它是一整套，可是我們現在的新青安已經亂成一團。第二個，接下去剛剛講的，如果新青安明年截止，我們一年目前是拿到將近45億的補助，有關住宅基金，內政部應該哇哇叫快沒錢了，對吧？所以沒辦法蓋社宅了，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不能這樣講，住宅基金如果需要的話，我們還是會跟行政院，希望能夠繼續補助……"],["黃委員珊珊：你還是會跟行政院要錢？"],["劉部長世芳：不是新青安，大概是社會住宅的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，7月不再補貼，要換新方法？"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們不主張要加碼……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是新方法一樣會動到我們住宅基金，住宅基金的錢夠不夠現在不知道，但是我要了一年的資料，院長，你520上任，現在已經一年半了，這一年半我們的住宅，尤其是社宅政策，計畫還沒核定？蔡英文總統12萬戶9個月之內就核定了，然後113年說他完成12萬戶，在他卸任之前，的確某個程度totally加一加是有，大概達到這個數字。賴清德總統說，8年要直接興建13萬戶，但是今年一年了，你上任一年多了，發包了多少？發包了1,600戶。院長，如果按照賴總統的承諾，一年要蓋1.5萬戶，如果你現在只蓋了1,600戶，他的8年要乘10倍，也就是賴清德總統要當80年才能做到13萬戶，這是怎麼回事？然後到今天為止，我們跟你們要了N年的資料卻說所謂的社宅興建計畫沒有核定，所以沒有人敢編預算，沒有人敢告訴我們什麼時候會蓋下一波的社宅。院長，在你桌上很久了嗎？還是內政部沒有送出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩部分跟委員報告，有關社宅包租代管的部分，我們已經核定了。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在問的是直接興建。"],["卓院長榮泰：包租代管已經核定。"],["黃委員珊珊：包租代管核定，我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：直接興辦的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以那是應該的，社宅現在是不蓋了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，直接興辦的部分，因為過去量出來之後，有一些大筆的、比較容易取得的土地大概用得差不多。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以8年13萬戶做不到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在想多元的直接興辦，包括民間的投入。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，多元的我沒有意見，租金補貼本來就應該、包租代管本來就應該的，那是另外一塊，13萬戶是鐵打的總統的承諾，這是一個莊嚴的承諾，這是一個對居住正義最基本的立場。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們想擴大量能、多元的方式來取得更多的土地。"],["黃委員珊珊：你要達到100萬戶、百萬社宅耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：直接興辦的部分就是在總統8年任期當中的13萬戶。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果按照你現在一年只有一千多戶，賴清德要當80年。"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部現在針對直接興辦……"],["劉部長世芳：多元取得。"],["黃委員珊珊：我需要的是你告訴我時間表，一年半了不核定，所以沒有任何住都中心敢回文跟我說它下一步要蓋哪裡、怎麼蓋、蓋多少，沒有任何資料可以回復。今天的問題是沒有上位計畫，沒有人敢回答下位計畫。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我想不是這樣的方向，直接興建住宅的部分跟包租代管未來是屬於社宅的部分，我們兩個要一起合併來看。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["劉部長世芳：未來我們還是以百萬戶的租屋家庭為主，所以送到這個300億住宅租金補貼的話，行政院是同意這個方向的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你的13萬戶可能會縮水嗎？我只問你，13萬戶會不會縮水？"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止，我們的進度大概到今年只剩下30%的預算還沒有執行結束，未來我們朝著一年5,000戶到1萬戶為主來……"],["黃委員珊珊：一年5,000戶到1萬戶，8年也蓋不到10萬戶吧！"],["劉部長世芳：你要從去年開始算起，不能從今年開始算。"],["黃委員珊珊：那你去年蓋了多少戶？我這邊看到你們發包只有1,600戶啊！"],["劉部長世芳：但這個部分確實是賴總統任內發包的，因為所用的基金預算也是賴總統任內發完。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們8年要蓋多少戶？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛有跟委員報告，在未來土地取得越來越困難的狀況之下，我們會朝著包租代管的方式來取得社會住宅，這個對於居住正義也是另外一種政策方向。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有關係，做不到就說做不到，就承認做不到，就不要再回答我說我們會往那個目標走，如果只能蓋10萬戶就說10萬戶，如果只能蓋8萬戶就說8萬戶，大家都知道很難，我們在臺北市也蓋過，很難……"],["劉部長世芳：對，因為臺北市也幾乎不再往社會住宅興建方向發展了。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以13萬戶變成是沒有辦法核定的東西，就把它說清楚，不要再拿出來說我們有100萬戶，沒有就沒有，但是我們還是一樣……"],["劉部長世芳：社會住宅不會只有直接興建……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們的期待是行政院不可以嫌蓋社宅太貴，因為你看租金補貼花了就沒有了，明天給完錢，很多人……目前為止租屋黑市還是在，不敢申請的、不敢設籍的、不敢設戶口的還是大有人在，所以租金補貼很多人是看得到吃不到。但是你興建社宅，政府留下了資產，如果我們興建社宅達到5%的話，其實我們是可以控制市場租金的。第三個，如果有社宅，我們可以給弱勢的人租期保障，最重要的是，我們有提供給弱勢的優先空間。現在的問題是租金補貼當然更簡單，對你來說也很輕鬆，蓋社宅本來就很難。但針對這兩件事情，院長，我要說的是，這是政府政策跟政府的承諾，我們要選哪一個說清楚，一年半了不能沒有態度啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是朝原來的目標在前進，但當中土地取得困難，我們用多元的方式……"],["黃委員珊珊：那就承認現在的困難，說你的興建住宅至少完成8萬戶也可以。"],["卓院長榮泰：政府的資金沒有辦法投入那麼多，我們希望民間的資金也來投入，這個過程內政部正在做全盤的規劃，我相信我也要求在這個規劃出來之後，我們的量要實質上增加。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們希望的是很具體化，每天都說朝那個方向前進，然後都沒有計畫。有計畫才會有方向，才會有預算，才會有相關的後續，現在連計畫都沒有核定，我實在不知道怎麼去了解你們後續的狀況，這是我做為民意代表想要知道的事情。所以部長，如果真的每年只能發包1萬戶，那就說清楚，我們也可以接受，大家好好來討論，但是13萬戶做不到，我覺得也要誠實以對。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們會在滾動的政策上面提供給委員參考資料。"],["黃委員珊珊：從這個圖表可以看得出來，我們還是希望社宅成為政府未來的資產，而不是租金補貼發完就沒有了，加上現在還是有很多人看得到吃不到。"],["劉部長世芳：直接興建社宅的部分是中央跟地方政府要一起努力的……"],["黃委員珊珊：一起努力我同意。"],["劉部長世芳：有一些地方政府已經停止興建社會住宅，表示他們在土地取得及資金取得上面確實有非常大的困擾，所以我們現在往……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以計畫很重要嘛！你是中央主管機關，你應該要有上位計畫，把社宅當成最重要的計畫，然後跟地方政府一起來努力，不是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：社宅有很多種，直接興建是一種，包租代管也是一種，如果我們可以從空、餘屋取得，因為剛剛有立委在詢問的時候，我們也說用包租代管社宅的取得也是社會住宅。"],["黃委員珊珊：包租代管是其中一種，但是我剛剛講的社會住宅這些優勢是包租代管做不到的。"],["劉部長世芳：這也是居住正義的一環，我想委員可以用滾動式的想法來瞭解社會住宅政策的推動。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，其實這就是一個承諾，居住正義不要做一半。針對居住正義，如果總統說的8年13萬戶做一半也沒關係，那就說出來，但是現在有點在迴避。接下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部關於直接興辦的計畫正在檢討，核定之後……"],["黃委員珊珊：多久可以給我一個初步的答案？"],["卓院長榮泰：請內政部加快速度。"],["劉部長世芳：我先跟委員報告，目前我們的部分是12萬戶，中央是6萬戶接近7萬戶，地方只有5萬戶，如果要檢討的話，我希望把包租代管的方式包含進去，包括現在空、餘屋的取得，讓它變成社會住宅也包含進來，我覺得對於年輕人來講，這才是最重要的，而不是等3年、5年、10年以後才看到直接興建好的社會住宅。"],["黃委員珊珊：都好，但是如果社宅像這樣停滯不前，我覺得很不負責任，至少你告訴我下一年有多少戶、多少處？我現在調不到任何資料，這才是我的問題。院長，一個月之內給我一個初步的答案吧！你們可以檢討，但是已經檢討很久了，好嗎？","下一個問題是內政部現在在討論的是所謂的虛坪改革，部長對吧？你們剛剛開過部務會議嘛！院長知道什麼是虛坪嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不只，我們還有跟很多團體進行溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，你知道臺灣人買房子有30%到40%都叫虛坪嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：公共設施的部分，公共設施的空間。"],["黃委員珊珊：公共設施的價錢其實都是用總價一坪多少錢來算，並沒有把公共設施打個對折。也就是說，以臺北人、臺北市來說，我買30坪的房子，可能有10坪到12坪是虛坪，一坪也是上百萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：有關這個改革，現在民眾、民間團體來說，內政部也有相關的計畫，目前看起來有一些我認為必要的公共設施當然有必要，可是現在有太多沒必要的，而且是灌水、故意提高房子總價的。對於現在的虛坪改革，部長，你們有沒有方向？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我跟委員報告一下，我們跟相關的民意代表也在做溝通。有關虛坪改革的部分，原來我們所提供的包括電梯或者是車道的部分，目前為止可能他們會認為在計算的方法上面，尤其是價格上面，應該不要列入所謂虛坪的改革方向，但是我希望我們的地政單位能夠再去思考一下，我們如果用實坪實售，也就是說，站在消費者的立場……"],["黃委員珊珊：在國外都做得到啊！"],["劉部長世芳：對，站在消費者的立場……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼在臺灣這麼困難？"],["劉部長世芳：對，站在消費者的立場，如果可以保障是實坪實售的話，我們會再跟相關的單位、包括民意代表來做最好的溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，就是很簡單，做跟不做而已，都做得到。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，報告委員，在推動的過程當中，我們也希望對於雙方的消費者，政府能夠保障到他們。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這要政府有很強的意志力來推動。臺灣大家都希望虛坪，每個房子都漲很貴，當然很好啊！可是面對的是假設我說居住有正義的話，虛坪改革可能是政府必須面對的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部正在努力當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以我希望院長在年底前就這個部分也給我初步的回應，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們把構想跟現在的進度跟委員報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。下一個是央行開始信用管制，有一些新聞媒體陸續地說我們現在有很多的爛尾樓，這些爛尾樓怎麼回事，部長，嚴重嗎？嚴不嚴重？"],["劉部長世芳：建商管理機制應該是指哪一方面的管理機制可能會比較好，因為建商是指建商本身、建商的建設公司、還是牽涉到住宅的部分，最好能夠明定清楚，我們比較好管，因為並不是所有的部分都是內政部主管的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我們到了部門質詢的時候再去問，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["江啟臣","張智倫","盧縣一","黃健豪","麥玉珍","黃仁","高金素梅","黃珊珊","吳思瑤","李坤城","沈伯洋","莊瑞雄","王美惠","羅美玲","陳永康","郭國文","林德福","陳冠廷","陳秀寳","李彥秀","吳琪銘"],"page_start":135,"meetingDate":["2025-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00004","1148701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00009"}}}