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\"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 108.216, \"end\": 108.376, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 108.376, \"end\": 108.616, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 108.616, \"end\": 108.816, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 108.816, \"end\": 108.836, \"score\": 0.933}]}, {\"start\": 109.332, \"end\": 131.693, \"text\": \"但是新戰這個部分我覺得大家可能會比較忽略因為新戰大部分就是針對政治人物跟軍人這兩塊他想要讓他們以後沒有抗敵的意志希望他做出錯誤的決定那因為前陣子國台辦也有公佈針對我們的司法人員說檢舉他們為台獨等等之類所以表示軍公教現在已經被針對了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 109.332, \"end\": 109.412, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 109.412, \"end\": 109.592, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 109.592, \"end\": 110.273, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 110.273, \"end\": 110.453, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 110.453, \"end\": 110.593, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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\"所\", \"start\": 129.091, \"end\": 129.171, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 129.171, \"end\": 129.271, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 129.271, \"end\": 129.411, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 129.411, \"end\": 130.032, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 130.032, \"end\": 130.332, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 130.332, \"end\": 130.832, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 130.832, \"end\": 130.992, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 130.992, \"end\": 131.613, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 131.613, \"end\": 131.673, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 131.673, \"end\": 131.693, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 132.754, \"end\": 160.695, \"text\": \"那如果軍公教在被針對的這個狀況之下我們有什麼比較有創意的方式來做回擊我之所以會問這個是因為這一年多以來他們一直這樣做他們顯然沒有什麼成本也就是說他們覺得做這件事情感覺台灣沒有什麼反應那如果我們今天一直沒有一個反制措施的話它越擴張越多接下來可能就是一般人民了所以這邊想問不管是主委或者院長我們現在有什麼比較好的反制措施\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 132.754, \"end\": 132.914, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 132.914, \"end\": 133.094, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 133.094, \"end\": 133.515, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"軍\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 133.515, \"end\": 133.735, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 133.735, \"end\": 133.915, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 133.915, \"end\": 134.115, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 134.115, \"end\": 134.675, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 134.675, \"end\": 135.476, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 135.476, \"end\": 135.656, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"下\", 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157.252, \"end\": 157.753, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 157.753, \"end\": 157.893, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 157.893, \"end\": 158.293, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 158.293, \"end\": 158.413, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 158.413, \"end\": 158.533, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 158.533, \"end\": 158.773, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 158.773, \"end\": 159.094, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 159.094, \"end\": 159.234, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 159.234, \"end\": 159.354, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 159.354, \"end\": 159.554, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 159.554, \"end\": 159.734, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 159.734, \"end\": 159.874, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 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0.981}, {\"word\": \"器\", \"start\": 213.796, \"end\": 214.337, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 214.337, \"end\": 214.457, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 214.457, \"end\": 214.598, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 214.598, \"end\": 215.34, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 215.34, \"end\": 215.641, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 215.641, \"end\": 216.403, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 216.403, \"end\": 216.563, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 216.563, \"end\": 216.744, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 216.744, \"end\": 216.904, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 216.904, \"end\": 217.145, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 217.145, \"end\": 217.325, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 217.325, \"end\": 217.466, \"score\": 0.969}, 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\"候\", \"start\": 563.865, \"end\": 564.005, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 564.005, \"end\": 564.405, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"顧\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 564.405, \"end\": 564.425, \"score\": 0.431}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 565.222, \"end\": 593.249, \"text\": \"因為那時候發現這個新兵訓練的時候結果在放那個解放軍的影片結果因為那時候其實我記得是台中市政府是因為他們地方的兵役跟這個地方的這個可能遊覽車合作結果放了這個影片那當時的國防部是承諾說至少跟國防部有關的比如說新兵訓練或者說這一個不是本來那個返鄉專車啊國軍的這個偽商的交通車啊這個他們會確保不會有這種事情發生那至於地方政府也會去要求\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 565.222, \"end\": 565.342, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 565.342, \"end\": 565.582, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 565.582, \"end\": 566.322, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 566.322, \"end\": 566.542, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"兵\", \"start\": 566.542, \"end\": 566.982, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": 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738.673, \"text\": \"這個完全是跟我們的原來的想法是背道而馳這方面我們會來做精進改進包括跟地方縣市政府的兵役單位或者是訓練的單位做公版的提供一定不能出現有跟中國相關的教材出現\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 723.904, \"end\": 724.144, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 724.144, \"end\": 724.325, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 724.325, \"end\": 724.505, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 724.505, \"end\": 724.645, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 724.645, \"end\": 724.945, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 724.945, \"end\": 725.085, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 725.085, \"end\": 725.265, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 725.265, \"end\": 725.585, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 725.585, \"end\": 725.825, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 725.825, \"end\": 726.005, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 726.005, \"end\": 726.466, 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{\"word\": \"訓\"}, {\"word\": \"練\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 732.889, \"end\": 733.21, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 733.21, \"end\": 733.47, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 733.47, \"end\": 733.77, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 733.77, \"end\": 733.97, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 733.97, \"end\": 734.17, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 734.17, \"end\": 734.29, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 734.29, \"end\": 734.47, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 734.47, \"end\": 734.931, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 734.931, \"end\": 735.071, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 735.071, \"end\": 735.271, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 735.271, \"end\": 735.351, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 735.351, \"end\": 735.611, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 735.611, \"end\": 735.931, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 735.931, \"end\": 736.111, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 736.111, \"end\": 736.331, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 736.331, \"end\": 736.752, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 736.752, \"end\": 737.192, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 737.192, \"end\": 738.273, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 738.273, \"end\": 738.453, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"材\", \"start\": 738.453, \"end\": 738.653, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 738.653, \"end\": 738.673, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"現\"}]}, {\"start\": 739.818, \"end\": 766.951, \"text\": \"這個就再拜託請內政部對地方政府再多做一些要求不然的話有時候在網路上大家看到就會對於這種訓練可能又會有質疑我們國軍在去年一整年以來慢慢的改了非常多地方然後重拾人民對國軍的信心我希望對於議政署對於替代役國人對於民力的這樣的一個支持也能夠持續的往上提升最後實現關係我再問一下打詐這件事情這可能就要問院長了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 739.818, \"end\": 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00:00:44,172\n森委員好院長好指揮好那這個一開始我先來這個當然就是剛剛司藥委員其實也有提到我還是有打一個大大的涉及案件在這個左上角那我認為這件事情很重要重要在哪裡並不是我個人\n\n3\n00:00:44,893 --> 00:01:13,396\n因為我們今天海委會也在我們都知道從去年開始灰色地帶作戰是越來越嚴重它會步步進逼離台灣的越來越近手法越來越翻新那它對於我個人的懲戒可能先從個人口頭上的一個懲戒然後一直到家人然後一直到什麼商業活動有往來的範圍然後一直到說現在要偵查我想說之後應該可能就通緝或我在想可能應該就要缺席審判\n\n4\n00:01:14,036 --> 00:01:18,513\n那它這樣的一個方式我現在有點擔心就是因為在這一個我在地\n\n5\n00:01:19,367 --> 00:01:48,836\n應該是第四次的時候還是第三次的時候其實在同一天他們也有公佈對我們國軍的這個通緝那這個很麻煩是因為表示他已經在針對我們的公務人員來做這個新戰因為我們也都知道我們現在面對中國最主要就三戰嘛這一個輿論戰、新戰還有法律戰那法律戰去年就已經開始很多了我待會會問到那輿論戰這一個部分我看很多立委都關心講認知作戰啊台灣有沒有在地協力者啊這個過往我已經問很多了\n\n6\n00:01:49,332 --> 00:02:11,693\n但是新戰這個部分我覺得大家可能會比較忽略因為新戰大部分就是針對政治人物跟軍人這兩塊他想要讓他們以後沒有抗敵的意志希望他做出錯誤的決定那因為前陣子國台辦也有公佈針對我們的司法人員說檢舉他們為台獨等等之類所以表示軍公教現在已經被針對了\n\n7\n00:02:12,754 --> 00:02:40,695\n那如果軍公教在被針對的這個狀況之下我們有什麼比較有創意的方式來做回擊我之所以會問這個是因為這一年多以來他們一直這樣做他們顯然沒有什麼成本也就是說他們覺得做這件事情感覺台灣沒有什麼反應那如果我們今天一直沒有一個反制措施的話它越擴張越多接下來可能就是一般人民了所以這邊想問不管是主委或者院長我們現在有什麼比較好的反制措施\n\n8\n00:02:42,813 --> 00:03:06,510\n我肯定相信對方的這個行為不會造成委員你個人對民主信念的堅持還有日常的正常生活反而會激起你更堅強的意志對抗這種極權的政府但是我們都認為一樣大家都知道對方中國對我們並沒有任何的司法管轄權所以他談的是空話\n\n9\n00:03:08,103 --> 00:03:31,812\n我覺得這可以是不是委員有考慮到我們向國際的人權組織或政治組織向他說明現在當今社會存在著一個國家竟然要對他的鄰近國家伸展這個長臂管轄而且用這種莫須有的罪名要試圖影響該人的一個行為上的自由這個應該讓國際社會了解這個極權國家無論他今天經濟力量有多大\n\n10\n00:03:32,873 --> 00:03:38,368\n國家的武器戰力有多強在人權這項上面他完全是不及格的應該讓國際社會來瞭解\n\n11\n00:03:40,681 --> 00:04:07,760\n謝謝院長的這個答案因為真的對我個人來講當然不會有什麼太大的損傷我們都把這個當作是一個榮譽的標記表示我們應該都是做對事情但是對於國際社會這樣的一個發生我認為是重要的為什麼是因為一直以來在很多國家比如說美國在針對中國假設今天中國對他們做類似這樣的事情美國馬上可能就會說我們針對什麼中國的官員在美國致慘然後馬上來做一些制裁\n\n12\n00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:22,613\n但我們說真的中國官員大概在台灣自產這個狀況應該比較少是因為我們對於中國的管制原本就很嚴格西方世界之所以現在可以做很多的這些制裁的動作是因為他們以前對中國不設防\n\n13\n00:04:23,374 --> 00:04:43,402\n所以他們要做更嚴格的措施來反制的時候這個是會有力道的但是我們的管制措施已經存在當然我們在行政上我剛看到前面有很多委員也在問就是說能不能夠這邊再更嚴格一點這邊再加重一點檢舉的獎金再多一點但我們要直接做一個確實的反制對中國要有一定的威脅那個成本的升高不容易\n\n14\n00:04:44,122 --> 00:04:57,272\n所以對於國際社會的一個發聲像我的案子其實路透社等等國際媒體其實都是有報導那在這個當下其實有可能會對他們來更多的壓力但也有可能我們在外交上如果真的要來做這樣的發聲我們的預算\n\n15\n00:04:58,993 --> 00:05:24,539\n可能是有點不足啦我們去年的外交預算這方面就已經有點不足了如果要再往下的話這可能都是一個疑問啦所以當然但是接下來我想要再問就是說這是新戰的部分因為我個人我們常做這些事情我們都知道中國的威脅但我覺得軍公教就像我剛剛提到的軍人可能也還好因為軍人也知道他們的天職就是在保衛這個國家他們也知道他們會被中國新戰會被中國威脅\n\n16\n00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:54,268\n但像司法人員但我知道這個可能是有點法務部可能要回答的問題就是在陸委會這邊司法人員他們在面臨到這樣的一個威脅的時候有沒有什麼方式讓他們知道或者讓他們有信心一點不要因為這樣受到司法獨立的干擾司法人員我認為司法人員都受過我們國家正規的法律訓練基本對中華民國憲法以及所有的法律都有基本的了解在這個情況底下都認為\n\n17\n00:05:55,891 --> 00:06:13,782\n對方無理的這個行為應該不會對自己造成困擾到底要做的是如何保護國人如果給國人更正確的安全的了解比方說你現在要到中國大陸去的人要進中國境內的人你事先必須了解他有沒有注意過你過去的一些言行\n\n18\n00:06:14,983 --> 00:06:35,243\n應該在這種高度的安全威脅存在的前提底下衡量自己的行為我們司法人員也沒有辦法到當地去履行我們的司法權利我們對國人的保障也可能會受到很大的折扣所以司法人員本身我認為問題不是那麼大但是如何保護人民的問題會比較大\n\n19\n00:06:35,863 --> 00:07:04,806\n對我覺得這個院長提到一件很重要的事情就是因為接下來它擴張可能到一般人民嘛就好像之前其實我們有這個一般人民到這個跟某個委員去香港結果在香港也被抓走嘛所以一般人民有可能對這個認識是不足那認識不足的話呢其實就蠻需要陸委會做更多的宣導那問題就在於說我們很希望陸委會因為現在反而可能需要的人力跟需要的宣導費用有可能要比往年要來的更多是因為我們現在面臨的這個是鋪天蓋地啦\n\n20\n00:07:05,206 --> 00:07:20,532\n是跟委員報告謝謝委員您提到這個事情很重要中國透過這個法律戰結合他的認知作戰對於我們這些跨境鎮壓那可以說是越來越變本加厲他是企圖讓\n\n21\n00:07:22,293 --> 00:07:37,591\n臺灣人民被恫嚇然後是分化我們臺灣社會所以我們國內朝野必須要一致來提升來譴責共同來抵制剛剛委員講的一個很重要就是說我們的國人負辱\n\n22\n00:07:39,212 --> 00:08:03,907\n他們也收到很多包括失聯的、失蹤的、被滯留盤查的而且被陸方因為法律被關押的這些人數逐步增加據我們從去年到10月底的統計已經達到233人其中去年才55人我們今年就178人比去年還多三倍\n\n23\n00:08:05,307 --> 00:08:32,254\n這種不管是跨境鎮壓或是我們國人暴露的人身安全確實亮起紅燈所以剛剛不僅是我們這邊被跨境鎮壓我們需要保護國人那像政治人物軍方或者是你剛剛說的檢察官可能心理素質比較強大他不受到這種心聲恐慌但一般國人就會所以我們也希望各行各業都要知道我們應該要團結一致共同抵制\n\n24\n00:08:33,115 --> 00:08:48,654\n共同譴責拒絕中共的跨境鎮壓各行各業應該不要對於被中共點名的人配合他們在繼續的來為虎作倉助紂為虐我們反而要保護國人避免這個跨境鎮壓\n\n25\n00:08:49,515 --> 00:09:17,300\n而且國際社會對跨境鎮壓越來越重視我們應該呼籲國際社會重視台灣的這個個案我們陸委會也好外交部也好都會跟國際社會說好中國對台灣進行跨境鎮壓的這個重要的個案那就拜託了因為接下來的宣導我認為是重中之重所以這個之後我們在這個內政委後我們再來接下來來針對這一點來做這個討論那接下來這一個是想要問這個那個四方部長\n\n26\n00:09:18,180 --> 00:09:24,425\n就是說我先recap一下這個是我在2024年10月8號大概就一年以前那時候不是問你那時候是問顧部長\n\n27\n00:09:25,222 --> 00:09:53,249\n因為那時候發現這個新兵訓練的時候結果在放那個解放軍的影片結果因為那時候其實我記得是台中市政府是因為他們地方的兵役跟這個地方的這個可能遊覽車合作結果放了這個影片那當時的國防部是承諾說至少跟國防部有關的比如說新兵訓練或者說這一個不是本來那個返鄉專車啊國軍的這個偽商的交通車啊這個他們會確保不會有這種事情發生那至於地方政府也會去要求\n\n28\n00:09:53,849 --> 00:10:17,023\n所以這是去年發生的事情,大概也是我覺得改善蠻多的但現在跟內政普比較有關的是替代役替代役其實對我們來講,替代役在花蓮的時候替代役在第二天馬上就出發,其實也是給予了非常多支持我們對於替代役的訓練是一年比一年好但是替代役現在有一個就是由我們的治安維護組,是警察機關召集的\n\n29\n00:10:17,603 --> 00:10:38,750\n那警察官召集他們也會做一些比如說治安維護、緊急救護的訓練這是美式一件我覺得這個是一直我們民防往這個方向發展是對的但是我們在看到這個是新北市的這個細紙分局他們在做這一個一樣這個治安維護者的訓練的時候這個影片可能幫我播放一下很短\n\n30\n00:10:43,406 --> 00:11:03,013\n眼底上方也盖起了铁锁,连对这种飞着来的炸弹,士兵们甚至被逼着把鱼网拉进战壕,希望能挡住它的锋芒,但这些东西对真正的口袋无人机几乎没用,人家直接用天掌多雷打你的措手不及,为了对抗它,还有士兵专门潜伏在无人机航线上,趁它靠近时捡到光纤,好让它彻底失去。\n\n31\n00:11:04,455 --> 00:11:22,755\n這一個就是說我們可以看到上面這個是一個看起來就是類似抖音的影片裡面也有簡體字那這件事情就是當然在地方的執行上面很容易會出現這樣的一個問題他可能找了自己的實資等等之類的但畢竟這一件事情是中央內政部跟地方政府\n\n32\n00:11:23,175 --> 00:11:39,780\n畢竟是一起來協助做這一個替代醫療的這個勤務編組所以我想問一下就是說因為這可能跟教材比較有關係目前來講有沒有辦法比如說統一的教材或者要求一定是怎樣程度的課綱不要說有這樣的一個事情發生\n\n33\n00:11:40,180 --> 00:12:03,244\n是謝謝委員的指教我們會朝著這方面來處理第一個就是說他如果在成功領的時候呢他是有公版的教材可是到地方上包括資安維護組或是其他的消防組的話可能就是地方縣市政府包括兵役局或者他會請退休的軍訓教官那他們可能就是比較便宜行事直接從網路抓下來直接就拿到上面去當教材\n\n34\n00:12:03,904 --> 00:12:18,673\n這個完全是跟我們的原來的想法是背道而馳這方面我們會來做精進改進包括跟地方縣市政府的兵役單位或者是訓練的單位做公版的提供一定不能出現有跟中國相關的教材出現\n\n35\n00:12:19,818 --> 00:12:46,951\n這個就再拜託請內政部對地方政府再多做一些要求不然的話有時候在網路上大家看到就會對於這種訓練可能又會有質疑我們國軍在去年一整年以來慢慢的改了非常多地方然後重拾人民對國軍的信心我希望對於議政署對於替代役國人對於民力的這樣的一個支持也能夠持續的往上提升最後實現關係我再問一下打詐這件事情這可能就要問院長了\n\n36\n00:12:48,372 --> 00:13:17,131\n但是這個有沒有有趣因為我去索資因為我知道大家都很關心打詐講說金額多少等等之類的但說真的打詐其實就是兩件事情第一個就是選導非常重要我們一定要跟人民選導說最新的詐騙手法是什麼大家應該要注意我認為這部分是OK的第二個是當詐騙都已經發生了有時候你沒辦法杜絕它還是發生的時候那個處理速度一定要很快它是跟時間賽跑我發現我們就是跟這個速發部要這個資料的時候\n\n37\n00:13:17,771 --> 00:13:38,400\n有一半以上的這種網路詐騙他們回報以後因為假設今天比如說這是跟農業有關的詐騙速發部就會去找農業部說這個交給你這個到底是不是有問題的如果是的話我們趕快回報給社群平台但是有一半都是速發部在處理為什麼呢是因為很多你沒有辦法歸類它有些就是冒充名人\n\n38\n00:13:38,980 --> 00:13:53,958\n名人也沒有主管機關所以到時候就是速發部來處理但是即使是如此我們可以看到速發部在的一萬八千案件他平均的處理時間是十四小時所以說真的也不算太慢但是說真的應該你可以看到內政部\n\n39\n00:13:54,398 --> 00:14:19,598\n那你這部今天是五千個他一點四個小時就可以完成這一個審查其實速度非常非常的快所以如果時間夠本來想請部長來講一下為什麼可以那麼快但是我現在發現一件事情就是你看衛福部它剩兩千七百個案件它平均要花兩百六十個小時衛福部一直很慢對那我後來就想說奇怪為什麼那麼慢我後來才發現我的原因是這樣子有一個月突然其中都是在冒充醫師相關的詐騙\n\n40\n00:14:21,246 --> 00:14:44,645\n所以冒充醫師的相關的詐騙在一個月之內突然大量湧入衛福部結果他可能只有幾個人可以做這個相關的審查所以他當然就沒有這個他當然就只能拖著因為他沒有辦法那麼快但是倒過來假設我們今天說好我們把衛福部來增加人力希望他來處理他可能過了下個月另一個冒充醫師的詐騙都沒有了全部都變成冒充別的結果那些人就閒置在那一邊\n\n41\n00:14:45,405 --> 00:15:14,722\n所以現在會變成說那個謠言會跳來跳去在每一個部會有可能衛福部今天很多可能隔天經濟部很多可能下一個月變勞動部很多所以變成這個院這邊的這個中間的人力的協調可能會變得很重要那我們過往有打炸辦公室打炸辦公室這個是不是有這樣的一個協調能力讓今天每一個部會遇到的時候他可能都會有一個臨時的編組然後他也知道guideline知道說要用哪一些標準\n\n42\n00:15:15,242 --> 00:15:31,434\n因為像衛福部我看他們遇到的問題就是他有點不太能判定到底是高風險還是完全的詐騙所以到底要回報還是不要回報還在那邊猶豫然後還在那邊慢慢查證到底是真的醫生還是假的醫生那個SOP的建立一旦慢的話有可能這個速度就會\n\n43\n00:15:49,121 --> 00:15:50,322\n好謝謝謝謝三位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9631\t20349\t謝謝主席那有請院長然後先那個陸委會主委就主委 謝謝那待會可能會有內政部 謝謝內政部部長\n27594\t44172\t森委員好院長好 指揮好那這個一開始我先來這個當然就是剛剛司藥委員其實也有提到我還是有打一個大大的涉及案件在這個左上角那我認為這件事情很重要重要在哪裡 並不是我個人\n44893\t73396\t因為我們今天海委會也在我們都知道從去年開始灰色地帶作戰是越來越嚴重它會步步進逼離台灣的越來越近手法越來越翻新那它對於我個人的懲戒可能先從個人口頭上的一個懲戒然後一直到家人然後一直到什麼商業活動有往來的範圍然後一直到說現在要偵查我想說之後應該可能就通緝或我在想可能應該就要缺席審判\n74036\t78513\t那它這樣的一個方式我現在有點擔心就是因為在這一個我在地\n79367\t108836\t應該是第四次的時候還是第三次的時候其實在同一天他們也有公佈對我們國軍的這個通緝那這個很麻煩是因為表示他已經在針對我們的公務人員來做這個新戰因為我們也都知道我們現在面對中國最主要就三戰嘛這一個輿論戰、新戰還有法律戰那法律戰去年就已經開始很多了我待會會問到那輿論戰這一個部分我看很多立委都關心講認知作戰啊台灣有沒有在地協力者啊這個過往我已經問很多了\n109332\t131693\t但是新戰這個部分我覺得大家可能會比較忽略因為新戰大部分就是針對政治人物跟軍人這兩塊他想要讓他們以後沒有抗敵的意志希望他做出錯誤的決定那因為前陣子國台辦也有公佈針對我們的司法人員說檢舉他們為台獨等等之類所以表示軍公教現在已經被針對了\n132754\t160695\t那如果軍公教在被針對的這個狀況之下我們有什麼比較有創意的方式來做回擊我之所以會問這個是因為這一年多以來他們一直這樣做他們顯然沒有什麼成本也就是說他們覺得做這件事情感覺台灣沒有什麼反應那如果我們今天一直沒有一個反制措施的話它越擴張越多接下來可能就是一般人民了所以這邊想問不管是主委或者院長我們現在有什麼比較好的反制措施\n162813\t186510\t我肯定相信對方的這個行為不會造成委員你個人對民主信念的堅持還有日常的正常生活反而會激起你更堅強的意志對抗這種極權的政府但是我們都認為一樣大家都知道對方中國對我們並沒有任何的司法管轄權所以他談的是空話\n188103\t211812\t我覺得這可以是不是委員有考慮到我們向國際的人權組織或政治組織向他說明現在當今社會存在著一個國家竟然要對他的鄰近國家伸展這個長臂管轄而且用這種莫須有的罪名要試圖影響該人的一個行為上的自由這個應該讓國際社會了解這個極權國家無論他今天經濟力量有多大\n212873\t218368\t國家的武器戰力有多強在人權這項上面他完全是不及格的應該讓國際社會來瞭解\n220681\t247760\t謝謝院長的這個答案因為真的對我個人來講當然不會有什麼太大的損傷我們都把這個當作是一個榮譽的標記表示我們應該都是做對事情但是對於國際社會這樣的一個發生我認為是重要的為什麼是因為一直以來在很多國家比如說美國在針對中國假設今天中國對他們做類似這樣的事情美國馬上可能就會說我們針對什麼中國的官員在美國致慘然後馬上來做一些制裁\n248360\t262613\t但我們說真的中國官員大概在台灣自產這個狀況應該比較少是因為我們對於中國的管制原本就很嚴格西方世界之所以現在可以做很多的這些制裁的動作是因為他們以前對中國不設防\n263374\t283402\t所以他們要做更嚴格的措施來反制的時候這個是會有力道的但是我們的管制措施已經存在當然我們在行政上我剛看到前面有很多委員也在問就是說能不能夠這邊再更嚴格一點這邊再加重一點檢舉的獎金再多一點但我們要直接做一個確實的反制對中國要有一定的威脅那個成本的升高不容易\n284122\t297272\t所以對於國際社會的一個發聲像我的案子其實路透社等等國際媒體其實都是有報導那在這個當下其實有可能會對他們來更多的壓力但也有可能我們在外交上如果真的要來做這樣的發聲我們的預算\n298993\t324539\t可能是有點不足啦我們去年的外交預算這方面就已經有點不足了如果要再往下的話這可能都是一個疑問啦所以當然但是接下來我想要再問就是說這是新戰的部分因為我個人我們常做這些事情我們都知道中國的威脅但我覺得軍公教就像我剛剛提到的軍人可能也還好因為軍人也知道他們的天職就是在保衛這個國家他們也知道他們會被中國新戰會被中國威脅\n325399\t354268\t但像司法人員但我知道這個可能是有點法務部可能要回答的問題就是在陸委會這邊司法人員他們在面臨到這樣的一個威脅的時候有沒有什麼方式讓他們知道或者讓他們有信心一點不要因為這樣受到司法獨立的干擾司法人員我認為司法人員都受過我們國家正規的法律訓練基本對中華民國憲法以及所有的法律都有基本的了解在這個情況底下都認為\n355891\t373782\t對方無理的這個行為應該不會對自己造成困擾到底要做的是如何保護國人如果給國人更正確的安全的了解比方說你現在要到中國大陸去的人要進中國境內的人你事先必須了解他有沒有注意過你過去的一些言行\n374983\t395243\t應該在這種高度的安全威脅存在的前提底下衡量自己的行為我們司法人員也沒有辦法到當地去履行我們的司法權利我們對國人的保障也可能會受到很大的折扣所以司法人員本身我認為問題不是那麼大但是如何保護人民的問題會比較大\n395863\t424806\t對 我覺得這個院長提到一件很重要的事情就是因為接下來它擴張可能到一般人民嘛就好像之前其實我們有這個一般人民到這個跟某個委員去香港結果在香港也被抓走嘛所以一般人民有可能對這個認識是不足那認識不足的話呢其實就蠻需要陸委會做更多的宣導那問題就在於說我們很希望陸委會因為現在反而可能需要的人力跟需要的宣導費用有可能要比往年要來的更多是因為我們現在面臨的這個是鋪天蓋地啦\n425206\t440532\t是 跟委員報告 謝謝委員您提到這個事情很重要中國透過這個法律戰結合他的認知作戰對於我們這些跨境鎮壓那可以說是越來越變本加厲他是企圖讓\n442293\t457591\t臺灣人民被恫嚇然後是分化我們臺灣社會所以我們國內朝野必須要一致來提升來譴責共同來抵制剛剛委員講的一個很重要就是說我們的國人負辱\n459212\t483907\t他們也收到很多包括失聯的、失蹤的、被滯留盤查的而且被陸方因為法律被關押的這些人數逐步增加據我們從去年到10月底的統計已經達到233人其中去年才55人我們今年就178人比去年還多三倍\n485307\t512254\t這種不管是跨境鎮壓或是我們國人暴露的人身安全確實亮起紅燈所以剛剛不僅是我們這邊被跨境鎮壓我們需要保護國人那像政治人物軍方或者是你剛剛說的檢察官可能心理素質比較強大他不受到這種心聲恐慌但一般國人就會所以我們也希望各行各業都要知道我們應該要團結一致共同抵制\n513115\t528654\t共同譴責拒絕中共的跨境鎮壓各行各業應該不要對於被中共點名的人配合他們在繼續的來為虎作倉助紂為虐我們反而要保護國人避免這個跨境鎮壓\n529515\t557300\t而且國際社會對跨境鎮壓越來越重視我們應該呼籲國際社會重視台灣的這個個案我們陸委會也好外交部也好都會跟國際社會說好中國對台灣進行跨境鎮壓的這個重要的個案那就拜託了因為接下來的宣導我認為是重中之重所以這個之後我們在這個內政委後我們再來接下來來針對這一點來做這個討論那接下來這一個是想要問這個那個四方部長\n558180\t564425\t就是說我先recap一下這個是我在2024年10月8號大概就一年以前那時候不是問你那時候是問顧部長\n565222\t593249\t因為那時候發現這個新兵訓練的時候結果在放那個解放軍的影片結果因為那時候其實我記得是台中市政府是因為他們地方的兵役跟這個地方的這個可能遊覽車合作結果放了這個影片那當時的國防部是承諾說至少跟國防部有關的比如說新兵訓練或者說這一個不是本來那個返鄉專車啊國軍的這個偽商的交通車啊這個他們會確保不會有這種事情發生那至於地方政府也會去要求\n593849\t617023\t所以這是去年發生的事情,大概也是我覺得改善蠻多的但現在跟內政普比較有關的是替代役替代役其實對我們來講,替代役在花蓮的時候替代役在第二天馬上就出發,其實也是給予了非常多支持我們對於替代役的訓練是一年比一年好但是替代役現在有一個就是由我們的治安維護組,是警察機關召集的\n617603\t638750\t那警察官召集他們也會做一些比如說治安維護、緊急救護的訓練這是美式一件我覺得這個是一直我們民防往這個方向發展是對的但是我們在看到這個是新北市的這個細紙分局他們在做這一個一樣這個治安維護者的訓練的時候這個影片可能幫我播放一下很短\n643406\t663013\t眼底上方也盖起了铁锁,连对这种飞着来的炸弹,士兵们甚至被逼着把鱼网拉进战壕,希望能挡住它的锋芒,但这些东西对真正的口袋无人机几乎没用,人家直接用天掌多雷打你的措手不及,为了对抗它,还有士兵专门潜伏在无人机航线上,趁它靠近时捡到光纤,好让它彻底失去。\n664455\t682755\t這一個就是說我們可以看到上面這個是一個看起來就是類似抖音的影片裡面也有簡體字那這件事情就是當然在地方的執行上面很容易會出現這樣的一個問題他可能找了自己的實資等等之類的但畢竟這一件事情是中央內政部跟地方政府\n683175\t699780\t畢竟是一起來協助做這一個替代醫療的這個勤務編組所以我想問一下就是說因為這可能跟教材比較有關係目前來講有沒有辦法比如說統一的教材或者要求一定是怎樣程度的課綱不要說有這樣的一個事情發生\n700180\t723244\t是謝謝委員的指教我們會朝著這方面來處理第一個就是說他如果在成功領的時候呢他是有公版的教材可是到地方上包括資安維護組或是其他的消防組的話可能就是地方縣市政府包括兵役局或者他會請退休的軍訓教官那他們可能就是比較便宜行事直接從網路抓下來直接就拿到上面去當教材\n723904\t738673\t這個完全是跟我們的原來的想法是背道而馳這方面我們會來做精進改進包括跟地方縣市政府的兵役單位或者是訓練的單位做公版的提供一定不能出現有跟中國相關的教材出現\n739818\t766951\t這個就再拜託請內政部對地方政府再多做一些要求不然的話有時候在網路上大家看到就會對於這種訓練可能又會有質疑我們國軍在去年一整年以來慢慢的改了非常多地方然後重拾人民對國軍的信心我希望對於議政署對於替代役國人對於民力的這樣的一個支持也能夠持續的往上提升最後實現關係我再問一下打詐這件事情這可能就要問院長了\n768372\t797131\t但是這個有沒有有趣因為我去索資因為我知道大家都很關心打詐講說金額多少等等之類的但說真的打詐其實就是兩件事情第一個就是選導非常重要我們一定要跟人民選導說最新的詐騙手法是什麼大家應該要注意我認為這部分是OK的第二個是當詐騙都已經發生了有時候你沒辦法杜絕它還是發生的時候那個處理速度一定要很快它是跟時間賽跑我發現我們就是跟這個速發部要這個資料的時候\n797771\t818400\t有一半以上的這種網路詐騙他們回報以後因為假設今天比如說這是跟農業有關的詐騙速發部就會去找農業部說這個交給你這個到底是不是有問題的如果是的話我們趕快回報給社群平台但是有一半都是速發部在處理為什麼呢是因為很多你沒有辦法歸類它有些就是冒充名人\n818980\t833958\t名人也沒有主管機關所以到時候就是速發部來處理但是即使是如此我們可以看到速發部在的一萬八千案件他平均的處理時間是十四小時所以說真的也不算太慢但是說真的應該你可以看到內政部\n834398\t859598\t那你這部今天是五千個他一點四個小時就可以完成這一個審查其實速度非常非常的快所以如果時間夠本來想請部長來講一下為什麼可以那麼快但是我現在發現一件事情就是你看衛福部它剩兩千七百個案件它平均要花兩百六十個小時衛福部一直很慢對 那我後來就想說奇怪為什麼那麼慢我後來才發現我的原因是這樣子有一個月突然其中都是在冒充醫師相關的詐騙\n861246\t884645\t所以冒充醫師的相關的詐騙在一個月之內突然大量湧入衛福部結果他可能只有幾個人可以做這個相關的審查所以他當然就沒有這個他當然就只能拖著因為他沒有辦法那麼快但是倒過來假設我們今天說好我們把衛福部來增加人力希望他來處理他可能過了下個月另一個冒充醫師的詐騙都沒有了全部都變成冒充別的結果那些人就閒置在那一邊\n885405\t914722\t所以現在會變成說那個謠言會跳來跳去在每一個部會有可能衛福部今天很多可能隔天經濟部很多可能下一個月變勞動部很多所以變成這個院這邊的這個中間的人力的協調可能會變得很重要那我們過往有打炸辦公室打炸辦公室這個是不是有這樣的一個協調能力讓今天每一個部會遇到的時候他可能都會有一個臨時的編組然後他也知道guideline知道說要用哪一些標準\n915242\t931434\t因為像衛福部我看他們遇到的問題就是他有點不太能判定到底是高風險還是完全的詐騙所以到底要回報還是不要回報還在那邊猶豫然後還在那邊慢慢查證到底是真的醫生還是假的醫生那個SOP的建立一旦慢的話有可能這個速度就會\n949121\t950322\t好 謝謝 謝謝三位\n","txt":"謝謝主席那有請院長然後先那個陸委會主委就主委 謝謝那待會可能會有內政部 謝謝內政部部長\n森委員好院長好 指揮好那這個一開始我先來這個當然就是剛剛司藥委員其實也有提到我還是有打一個大大的涉及案件在這個左上角那我認為這件事情很重要重要在哪裡 並不是我個人\n因為我們今天海委會也在我們都知道從去年開始灰色地帶作戰是越來越嚴重它會步步進逼離台灣的越來越近手法越來越翻新那它對於我個人的懲戒可能先從個人口頭上的一個懲戒然後一直到家人然後一直到什麼商業活動有往來的範圍然後一直到說現在要偵查我想說之後應該可能就通緝或我在想可能應該就要缺席審判\n那它這樣的一個方式我現在有點擔心就是因為在這一個我在地\n應該是第四次的時候還是第三次的時候其實在同一天他們也有公佈對我們國軍的這個通緝那這個很麻煩是因為表示他已經在針對我們的公務人員來做這個新戰因為我們也都知道我們現在面對中國最主要就三戰嘛這一個輿論戰、新戰還有法律戰那法律戰去年就已經開始很多了我待會會問到那輿論戰這一個部分我看很多立委都關心講認知作戰啊台灣有沒有在地協力者啊這個過往我已經問很多了\n但是新戰這個部分我覺得大家可能會比較忽略因為新戰大部分就是針對政治人物跟軍人這兩塊他想要讓他們以後沒有抗敵的意志希望他做出錯誤的決定那因為前陣子國台辦也有公佈針對我們的司法人員說檢舉他們為台獨等等之類所以表示軍公教現在已經被針對了\n那如果軍公教在被針對的這個狀況之下我們有什麼比較有創意的方式來做回擊我之所以會問這個是因為這一年多以來他們一直這樣做他們顯然沒有什麼成本也就是說他們覺得做這件事情感覺台灣沒有什麼反應那如果我們今天一直沒有一個反制措施的話它越擴張越多接下來可能就是一般人民了所以這邊想問不管是主委或者院長我們現在有什麼比較好的反制措施\n我肯定相信對方的這個行為不會造成委員你個人對民主信念的堅持還有日常的正常生活反而會激起你更堅強的意志對抗這種極權的政府但是我們都認為一樣大家都知道對方中國對我們並沒有任何的司法管轄權所以他談的是空話\n我覺得這可以是不是委員有考慮到我們向國際的人權組織或政治組織向他說明現在當今社會存在著一個國家竟然要對他的鄰近國家伸展這個長臂管轄而且用這種莫須有的罪名要試圖影響該人的一個行為上的自由這個應該讓國際社會了解這個極權國家無論他今天經濟力量有多大\n國家的武器戰力有多強在人權這項上面他完全是不及格的應該讓國際社會來瞭解\n謝謝院長的這個答案因為真的對我個人來講當然不會有什麼太大的損傷我們都把這個當作是一個榮譽的標記表示我們應該都是做對事情但是對於國際社會這樣的一個發生我認為是重要的為什麼是因為一直以來在很多國家比如說美國在針對中國假設今天中國對他們做類似這樣的事情美國馬上可能就會說我們針對什麼中國的官員在美國致慘然後馬上來做一些制裁\n但我們說真的中國官員大概在台灣自產這個狀況應該比較少是因為我們對於中國的管制原本就很嚴格西方世界之所以現在可以做很多的這些制裁的動作是因為他們以前對中國不設防\n所以他們要做更嚴格的措施來反制的時候這個是會有力道的但是我們的管制措施已經存在當然我們在行政上我剛看到前面有很多委員也在問就是說能不能夠這邊再更嚴格一點這邊再加重一點檢舉的獎金再多一點但我們要直接做一個確實的反制對中國要有一定的威脅那個成本的升高不容易\n所以對於國際社會的一個發聲像我的案子其實路透社等等國際媒體其實都是有報導那在這個當下其實有可能會對他們來更多的壓力但也有可能我們在外交上如果真的要來做這樣的發聲我們的預算\n可能是有點不足啦我們去年的外交預算這方面就已經有點不足了如果要再往下的話這可能都是一個疑問啦所以當然但是接下來我想要再問就是說這是新戰的部分因為我個人我們常做這些事情我們都知道中國的威脅但我覺得軍公教就像我剛剛提到的軍人可能也還好因為軍人也知道他們的天職就是在保衛這個國家他們也知道他們會被中國新戰會被中國威脅\n但像司法人員但我知道這個可能是有點法務部可能要回答的問題就是在陸委會這邊司法人員他們在面臨到這樣的一個威脅的時候有沒有什麼方式讓他們知道或者讓他們有信心一點不要因為這樣受到司法獨立的干擾司法人員我認為司法人員都受過我們國家正規的法律訓練基本對中華民國憲法以及所有的法律都有基本的了解在這個情況底下都認為\n對方無理的這個行為應該不會對自己造成困擾到底要做的是如何保護國人如果給國人更正確的安全的了解比方說你現在要到中國大陸去的人要進中國境內的人你事先必須了解他有沒有注意過你過去的一些言行\n應該在這種高度的安全威脅存在的前提底下衡量自己的行為我們司法人員也沒有辦法到當地去履行我們的司法權利我們對國人的保障也可能會受到很大的折扣所以司法人員本身我認為問題不是那麼大但是如何保護人民的問題會比較大\n對 我覺得這個院長提到一件很重要的事情就是因為接下來它擴張可能到一般人民嘛就好像之前其實我們有這個一般人民到這個跟某個委員去香港結果在香港也被抓走嘛所以一般人民有可能對這個認識是不足那認識不足的話呢其實就蠻需要陸委會做更多的宣導那問題就在於說我們很希望陸委會因為現在反而可能需要的人力跟需要的宣導費用有可能要比往年要來的更多是因為我們現在面臨的這個是鋪天蓋地啦\n是 跟委員報告 謝謝委員您提到這個事情很重要中國透過這個法律戰結合他的認知作戰對於我們這些跨境鎮壓那可以說是越來越變本加厲他是企圖讓\n臺灣人民被恫嚇然後是分化我們臺灣社會所以我們國內朝野必須要一致來提升來譴責共同來抵制剛剛委員講的一個很重要就是說我們的國人負辱\n他們也收到很多包括失聯的、失蹤的、被滯留盤查的而且被陸方因為法律被關押的這些人數逐步增加據我們從去年到10月底的統計已經達到233人其中去年才55人我們今年就178人比去年還多三倍\n這種不管是跨境鎮壓或是我們國人暴露的人身安全確實亮起紅燈所以剛剛不僅是我們這邊被跨境鎮壓我們需要保護國人那像政治人物軍方或者是你剛剛說的檢察官可能心理素質比較強大他不受到這種心聲恐慌但一般國人就會所以我們也希望各行各業都要知道我們應該要團結一致共同抵制\n共同譴責拒絕中共的跨境鎮壓各行各業應該不要對於被中共點名的人配合他們在繼續的來為虎作倉助紂為虐我們反而要保護國人避免這個跨境鎮壓\n而且國際社會對跨境鎮壓越來越重視我們應該呼籲國際社會重視台灣的這個個案我們陸委會也好外交部也好都會跟國際社會說好中國對台灣進行跨境鎮壓的這個重要的個案那就拜託了因為接下來的宣導我認為是重中之重所以這個之後我們在這個內政委後我們再來接下來來針對這一點來做這個討論那接下來這一個是想要問這個那個四方部長\n就是說我先recap一下這個是我在2024年10月8號大概就一年以前那時候不是問你那時候是問顧部長\n因為那時候發現這個新兵訓練的時候結果在放那個解放軍的影片結果因為那時候其實我記得是台中市政府是因為他們地方的兵役跟這個地方的這個可能遊覽車合作結果放了這個影片那當時的國防部是承諾說至少跟國防部有關的比如說新兵訓練或者說這一個不是本來那個返鄉專車啊國軍的這個偽商的交通車啊這個他們會確保不會有這種事情發生那至於地方政府也會去要求\n所以這是去年發生的事情,大概也是我覺得改善蠻多的但現在跟內政普比較有關的是替代役替代役其實對我們來講,替代役在花蓮的時候替代役在第二天馬上就出發,其實也是給予了非常多支持我們對於替代役的訓練是一年比一年好但是替代役現在有一個就是由我們的治安維護組,是警察機關召集的\n那警察官召集他們也會做一些比如說治安維護、緊急救護的訓練這是美式一件我覺得這個是一直我們民防往這個方向發展是對的但是我們在看到這個是新北市的這個細紙分局他們在做這一個一樣這個治安維護者的訓練的時候這個影片可能幫我播放一下很短\n眼底上方也盖起了铁锁,连对这种飞着来的炸弹,士兵们甚至被逼着把鱼网拉进战壕,希望能挡住它的锋芒,但这些东西对真正的口袋无人机几乎没用,人家直接用天掌多雷打你的措手不及,为了对抗它,还有士兵专门潜伏在无人机航线上,趁它靠近时捡到光纤,好让它彻底失去。\n這一個就是說我們可以看到上面這個是一個看起來就是類似抖音的影片裡面也有簡體字那這件事情就是當然在地方的執行上面很容易會出現這樣的一個問題他可能找了自己的實資等等之類的但畢竟這一件事情是中央內政部跟地方政府\n畢竟是一起來協助做這一個替代醫療的這個勤務編組所以我想問一下就是說因為這可能跟教材比較有關係目前來講有沒有辦法比如說統一的教材或者要求一定是怎樣程度的課綱不要說有這樣的一個事情發生\n是謝謝委員的指教我們會朝著這方面來處理第一個就是說他如果在成功領的時候呢他是有公版的教材可是到地方上包括資安維護組或是其他的消防組的話可能就是地方縣市政府包括兵役局或者他會請退休的軍訓教官那他們可能就是比較便宜行事直接從網路抓下來直接就拿到上面去當教材\n這個完全是跟我們的原來的想法是背道而馳這方面我們會來做精進改進包括跟地方縣市政府的兵役單位或者是訓練的單位做公版的提供一定不能出現有跟中國相關的教材出現\n這個就再拜託請內政部對地方政府再多做一些要求不然的話有時候在網路上大家看到就會對於這種訓練可能又會有質疑我們國軍在去年一整年以來慢慢的改了非常多地方然後重拾人民對國軍的信心我希望對於議政署對於替代役國人對於民力的這樣的一個支持也能夠持續的往上提升最後實現關係我再問一下打詐這件事情這可能就要問院長了\n但是這個有沒有有趣因為我去索資因為我知道大家都很關心打詐講說金額多少等等之類的但說真的打詐其實就是兩件事情第一個就是選導非常重要我們一定要跟人民選導說最新的詐騙手法是什麼大家應該要注意我認為這部分是OK的第二個是當詐騙都已經發生了有時候你沒辦法杜絕它還是發生的時候那個處理速度一定要很快它是跟時間賽跑我發現我們就是跟這個速發部要這個資料的時候\n有一半以上的這種網路詐騙他們回報以後因為假設今天比如說這是跟農業有關的詐騙速發部就會去找農業部說這個交給你這個到底是不是有問題的如果是的話我們趕快回報給社群平台但是有一半都是速發部在處理為什麼呢是因為很多你沒有辦法歸類它有些就是冒充名人\n名人也沒有主管機關所以到時候就是速發部來處理但是即使是如此我們可以看到速發部在的一萬八千案件他平均的處理時間是十四小時所以說真的也不算太慢但是說真的應該你可以看到內政部\n那你這部今天是五千個他一點四個小時就可以完成這一個審查其實速度非常非常的快所以如果時間夠本來想請部長來講一下為什麼可以那麼快但是我現在發現一件事情就是你看衛福部它剩兩千七百個案件它平均要花兩百六十個小時衛福部一直很慢對 那我後來就想說奇怪為什麼那麼慢我後來才發現我的原因是這樣子有一個月突然其中都是在冒充醫師相關的詐騙\n所以冒充醫師的相關的詐騙在一個月之內突然大量湧入衛福部結果他可能只有幾個人可以做這個相關的審查所以他當然就沒有這個他當然就只能拖著因為他沒有辦法那麼快但是倒過來假設我們今天說好我們把衛福部來增加人力希望他來處理他可能過了下個月另一個冒充醫師的詐騙都沒有了全部都變成冒充別的結果那些人就閒置在那一邊\n所以現在會變成說那個謠言會跳來跳去在每一個部會有可能衛福部今天很多可能隔天經濟部很多可能下一個月變勞動部很多所以變成這個院這邊的這個中間的人力的協調可能會變得很重要那我們過往有打炸辦公室打炸辦公室這個是不是有這樣的一個協調能力讓今天每一個部會遇到的時候他可能都會有一個臨時的編組然後他也知道guideline知道說要用哪一些標準\n因為像衛福部我看他們遇到的問題就是他有點不太能判定到底是高風險還是完全的詐騙所以到底要回報還是不要回報還在那邊猶豫然後還在那邊慢慢查證到底是真的醫生還是假的醫生那個SOP的建立一旦慢的話有可能這個速度就會\n好 謝謝 謝謝三位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.631 --> 00:20.349\n謝謝主席那有請院長然後先那個陸委會主委就主委謝謝那待會可能會有內政部謝謝內政部部長\n\n00:27.594 --> 00:44.172\n森委員好院長好指揮好那這個一開始我先來這個當然就是剛剛司藥委員其實也有提到我還是有打一個大大的涉及案件在這個左上角那我認為這件事情很重要重要在哪裡並不是我個人\n\n00:44.893 --> 01:13.396\n因為我們今天海委會也在我們都知道從去年開始灰色地帶作戰是越來越嚴重它會步步進逼離台灣的越來越近手法越來越翻新那它對於我個人的懲戒可能先從個人口頭上的一個懲戒然後一直到家人然後一直到什麼商業活動有往來的範圍然後一直到說現在要偵查我想說之後應該可能就通緝或我在想可能應該就要缺席審判\n\n01:14.036 --> 01:18.513\n那它這樣的一個方式我現在有點擔心就是因為在這一個我在地\n\n01:19.367 --> 01:48.836\n應該是第四次的時候還是第三次的時候其實在同一天他們也有公佈對我們國軍的這個通緝那這個很麻煩是因為表示他已經在針對我們的公務人員來做這個新戰因為我們也都知道我們現在面對中國最主要就三戰嘛這一個輿論戰、新戰還有法律戰那法律戰去年就已經開始很多了我待會會問到那輿論戰這一個部分我看很多立委都關心講認知作戰啊台灣有沒有在地協力者啊這個過往我已經問很多了\n\n01:49.332 --> 02:11.693\n但是新戰這個部分我覺得大家可能會比較忽略因為新戰大部分就是針對政治人物跟軍人這兩塊他想要讓他們以後沒有抗敵的意志希望他做出錯誤的決定那因為前陣子國台辦也有公佈針對我們的司法人員說檢舉他們為台獨等等之類所以表示軍公教現在已經被針對了\n\n02:12.754 --> 02:40.695\n那如果軍公教在被針對的這個狀況之下我們有什麼比較有創意的方式來做回擊我之所以會問這個是因為這一年多以來他們一直這樣做他們顯然沒有什麼成本也就是說他們覺得做這件事情感覺台灣沒有什麼反應那如果我們今天一直沒有一個反制措施的話它越擴張越多接下來可能就是一般人民了所以這邊想問不管是主委或者院長我們現在有什麼比較好的反制措施\n\n02:42.813 --> 03:06.510\n我肯定相信對方的這個行為不會造成委員你個人對民主信念的堅持還有日常的正常生活反而會激起你更堅強的意志對抗這種極權的政府但是我們都認為一樣大家都知道對方中國對我們並沒有任何的司法管轄權所以他談的是空話\n\n03:08.103 --> 03:31.812\n我覺得這可以是不是委員有考慮到我們向國際的人權組織或政治組織向他說明現在當今社會存在著一個國家竟然要對他的鄰近國家伸展這個長臂管轄而且用這種莫須有的罪名要試圖影響該人的一個行為上的自由這個應該讓國際社會了解這個極權國家無論他今天經濟力量有多大\n\n03:32.873 --> 03:38.368\n國家的武器戰力有多強在人權這項上面他完全是不及格的應該讓國際社會來瞭解\n\n03:40.681 --> 04:07.760\n謝謝院長的這個答案因為真的對我個人來講當然不會有什麼太大的損傷我們都把這個當作是一個榮譽的標記表示我們應該都是做對事情但是對於國際社會這樣的一個發生我認為是重要的為什麼是因為一直以來在很多國家比如說美國在針對中國假設今天中國對他們做類似這樣的事情美國馬上可能就會說我們針對什麼中國的官員在美國致慘然後馬上來做一些制裁\n\n04:08.360 --> 04:22.613\n但我們說真的中國官員大概在台灣自產這個狀況應該比較少是因為我們對於中國的管制原本就很嚴格西方世界之所以現在可以做很多的這些制裁的動作是因為他們以前對中國不設防\n\n04:23.374 --> 04:43.402\n所以他們要做更嚴格的措施來反制的時候這個是會有力道的但是我們的管制措施已經存在當然我們在行政上我剛看到前面有很多委員也在問就是說能不能夠這邊再更嚴格一點這邊再加重一點檢舉的獎金再多一點但我們要直接做一個確實的反制對中國要有一定的威脅那個成本的升高不容易\n\n04:44.122 --> 04:57.272\n所以對於國際社會的一個發聲像我的案子其實路透社等等國際媒體其實都是有報導那在這個當下其實有可能會對他們來更多的壓力但也有可能我們在外交上如果真的要來做這樣的發聲我們的預算\n\n04:58.993 --> 05:24.539\n可能是有點不足啦我們去年的外交預算這方面就已經有點不足了如果要再往下的話這可能都是一個疑問啦所以當然但是接下來我想要再問就是說這是新戰的部分因為我個人我們常做這些事情我們都知道中國的威脅但我覺得軍公教就像我剛剛提到的軍人可能也還好因為軍人也知道他們的天職就是在保衛這個國家他們也知道他們會被中國新戰會被中國威脅\n\n05:25.399 --> 05:54.268\n但像司法人員但我知道這個可能是有點法務部可能要回答的問題就是在陸委會這邊司法人員他們在面臨到這樣的一個威脅的時候有沒有什麼方式讓他們知道或者讓他們有信心一點不要因為這樣受到司法獨立的干擾司法人員我認為司法人員都受過我們國家正規的法律訓練基本對中華民國憲法以及所有的法律都有基本的了解在這個情況底下都認為\n\n05:55.891 --> 06:13.782\n對方無理的這個行為應該不會對自己造成困擾到底要做的是如何保護國人如果給國人更正確的安全的了解比方說你現在要到中國大陸去的人要進中國境內的人你事先必須了解他有沒有注意過你過去的一些言行\n\n06:14.983 --> 06:35.243\n應該在這種高度的安全威脅存在的前提底下衡量自己的行為我們司法人員也沒有辦法到當地去履行我們的司法權利我們對國人的保障也可能會受到很大的折扣所以司法人員本身我認為問題不是那麼大但是如何保護人民的問題會比較大\n\n06:35.863 --> 07:04.806\n對我覺得這個院長提到一件很重要的事情就是因為接下來它擴張可能到一般人民嘛就好像之前其實我們有這個一般人民到這個跟某個委員去香港結果在香港也被抓走嘛所以一般人民有可能對這個認識是不足那認識不足的話呢其實就蠻需要陸委會做更多的宣導那問題就在於說我們很希望陸委會因為現在反而可能需要的人力跟需要的宣導費用有可能要比往年要來的更多是因為我們現在面臨的這個是鋪天蓋地啦\n\n07:05.206 --> 07:20.532\n是跟委員報告謝謝委員您提到這個事情很重要中國透過這個法律戰結合他的認知作戰對於我們這些跨境鎮壓那可以說是越來越變本加厲他是企圖讓\n\n07:22.293 --> 07:37.591\n臺灣人民被恫嚇然後是分化我們臺灣社會所以我們國內朝野必須要一致來提升來譴責共同來抵制剛剛委員講的一個很重要就是說我們的國人負辱\n\n07:39.212 --> 08:03.907\n他們也收到很多包括失聯的、失蹤的、被滯留盤查的而且被陸方因為法律被關押的這些人數逐步增加據我們從去年到10月底的統計已經達到233人其中去年才55人我們今年就178人比去年還多三倍\n\n08:05.307 --> 08:32.254\n這種不管是跨境鎮壓或是我們國人暴露的人身安全確實亮起紅燈所以剛剛不僅是我們這邊被跨境鎮壓我們需要保護國人那像政治人物軍方或者是你剛剛說的檢察官可能心理素質比較強大他不受到這種心聲恐慌但一般國人就會所以我們也希望各行各業都要知道我們應該要團結一致共同抵制\n\n08:33.115 --> 08:48.654\n共同譴責拒絕中共的跨境鎮壓各行各業應該不要對於被中共點名的人配合他們在繼續的來為虎作倉助紂為虐我們反而要保護國人避免這個跨境鎮壓\n\n08:49.515 --> 09:17.300\n而且國際社會對跨境鎮壓越來越重視我們應該呼籲國際社會重視台灣的這個個案我們陸委會也好外交部也好都會跟國際社會說好中國對台灣進行跨境鎮壓的這個重要的個案那就拜託了因為接下來的宣導我認為是重中之重所以這個之後我們在這個內政委後我們再來接下來來針對這一點來做這個討論那接下來這一個是想要問這個那個四方部長\n\n09:18.180 --> 09:24.425\n就是說我先recap一下這個是我在2024年10月8號大概就一年以前那時候不是問你那時候是問顧部長\n\n09:25.222 --> 09:53.249\n因為那時候發現這個新兵訓練的時候結果在放那個解放軍的影片結果因為那時候其實我記得是台中市政府是因為他們地方的兵役跟這個地方的這個可能遊覽車合作結果放了這個影片那當時的國防部是承諾說至少跟國防部有關的比如說新兵訓練或者說這一個不是本來那個返鄉專車啊國軍的這個偽商的交通車啊這個他們會確保不會有這種事情發生那至於地方政府也會去要求\n\n09:53.849 --> 10:17.023\n所以這是去年發生的事情,大概也是我覺得改善蠻多的但現在跟內政普比較有關的是替代役替代役其實對我們來講,替代役在花蓮的時候替代役在第二天馬上就出發,其實也是給予了非常多支持我們對於替代役的訓練是一年比一年好但是替代役現在有一個就是由我們的治安維護組,是警察機關召集的\n\n10:17.603 --> 10:38.750\n那警察官召集他們也會做一些比如說治安維護、緊急救護的訓練這是美式一件我覺得這個是一直我們民防往這個方向發展是對的但是我們在看到這個是新北市的這個細紙分局他們在做這一個一樣這個治安維護者的訓練的時候這個影片可能幫我播放一下很短\n\n10:43.406 --> 11:03.013\n眼底上方也盖起了铁锁,连对这种飞着来的炸弹,士兵们甚至被逼着把鱼网拉进战壕,希望能挡住它的锋芒,但这些东西对真正的口袋无人机几乎没用,人家直接用天掌多雷打你的措手不及,为了对抗它,还有士兵专门潜伏在无人机航线上,趁它靠近时捡到光纤,好让它彻底失去。\n\n11:04.455 --> 11:22.755\n這一個就是說我們可以看到上面這個是一個看起來就是類似抖音的影片裡面也有簡體字那這件事情就是當然在地方的執行上面很容易會出現這樣的一個問題他可能找了自己的實資等等之類的但畢竟這一件事情是中央內政部跟地方政府\n\n11:23.175 --> 11:39.780\n畢竟是一起來協助做這一個替代醫療的這個勤務編組所以我想問一下就是說因為這可能跟教材比較有關係目前來講有沒有辦法比如說統一的教材或者要求一定是怎樣程度的課綱不要說有這樣的一個事情發生\n\n11:40.180 --> 12:03.244\n是謝謝委員的指教我們會朝著這方面來處理第一個就是說他如果在成功領的時候呢他是有公版的教材可是到地方上包括資安維護組或是其他的消防組的話可能就是地方縣市政府包括兵役局或者他會請退休的軍訓教官那他們可能就是比較便宜行事直接從網路抓下來直接就拿到上面去當教材\n\n12:03.904 --> 12:18.673\n這個完全是跟我們的原來的想法是背道而馳這方面我們會來做精進改進包括跟地方縣市政府的兵役單位或者是訓練的單位做公版的提供一定不能出現有跟中國相關的教材出現\n\n12:19.818 --> 12:46.951\n這個就再拜託請內政部對地方政府再多做一些要求不然的話有時候在網路上大家看到就會對於這種訓練可能又會有質疑我們國軍在去年一整年以來慢慢的改了非常多地方然後重拾人民對國軍的信心我希望對於議政署對於替代役國人對於民力的這樣的一個支持也能夠持續的往上提升最後實現關係我再問一下打詐這件事情這可能就要問院長了\n\n12:48.372 --> 13:17.131\n但是這個有沒有有趣因為我去索資因為我知道大家都很關心打詐講說金額多少等等之類的但說真的打詐其實就是兩件事情第一個就是選導非常重要我們一定要跟人民選導說最新的詐騙手法是什麼大家應該要注意我認為這部分是OK的第二個是當詐騙都已經發生了有時候你沒辦法杜絕它還是發生的時候那個處理速度一定要很快它是跟時間賽跑我發現我們就是跟這個速發部要這個資料的時候\n\n13:17.771 --> 13:38.400\n有一半以上的這種網路詐騙他們回報以後因為假設今天比如說這是跟農業有關的詐騙速發部就會去找農業部說這個交給你這個到底是不是有問題的如果是的話我們趕快回報給社群平台但是有一半都是速發部在處理為什麼呢是因為很多你沒有辦法歸類它有些就是冒充名人\n\n13:38.980 --> 13:53.958\n名人也沒有主管機關所以到時候就是速發部來處理但是即使是如此我們可以看到速發部在的一萬八千案件他平均的處理時間是十四小時所以說真的也不算太慢但是說真的應該你可以看到內政部\n\n13:54.398 --> 14:19.598\n那你這部今天是五千個他一點四個小時就可以完成這一個審查其實速度非常非常的快所以如果時間夠本來想請部長來講一下為什麼可以那麼快但是我現在發現一件事情就是你看衛福部它剩兩千七百個案件它平均要花兩百六十個小時衛福部一直很慢對那我後來就想說奇怪為什麼那麼慢我後來才發現我的原因是這樣子有一個月突然其中都是在冒充醫師相關的詐騙\n\n14:21.246 --> 14:44.645\n所以冒充醫師的相關的詐騙在一個月之內突然大量湧入衛福部結果他可能只有幾個人可以做這個相關的審查所以他當然就沒有這個他當然就只能拖著因為他沒有辦法那麼快但是倒過來假設我們今天說好我們把衛福部來增加人力希望他來處理他可能過了下個月另一個冒充醫師的詐騙都沒有了全部都變成冒充別的結果那些人就閒置在那一邊\n\n14:45.405 --> 15:14.722\n所以現在會變成說那個謠言會跳來跳去在每一個部會有可能衛福部今天很多可能隔天經濟部很多可能下一個月變勞動部很多所以變成這個院這邊的這個中間的人力的協調可能會變得很重要那我們過往有打炸辦公室打炸辦公室這個是不是有這樣的一個協調能力讓今天每一個部會遇到的時候他可能都會有一個臨時的編組然後他也知道guideline知道說要用哪一些標準\n\n15:15.242 --> 15:31.434\n因為像衛福部我看他們遇到的問題就是他有點不太能判定到底是高風險還是完全的詐騙所以到底要回報還是不要回報還在那邊猶豫然後還在那邊慢慢查證到底是真的醫生還是假的醫生那個SOP的建立一旦慢的話有可能這個速度就會\n\n15:49.121 --> 15:50.322\n好謝謝謝謝三位\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.631,"end":20.349,"text":"謝謝主席那有請院長然後先那個陸委會主委就主委 謝謝那待會可能會有內政部 謝謝內政部部長"},{"start":27.594,"end":44.172,"text":"森委員好院長好 指揮好那這個一開始我先來這個當然就是剛剛司藥委員其實也有提到我還是有打一個大大的涉及案件在這個左上角那我認為這件事情很重要重要在哪裡 並不是我個人"},{"start":44.893,"end":73.396,"text":"因為我們今天海委會也在我們都知道從去年開始灰色地帶作戰是越來越嚴重它會步步進逼離台灣的越來越近手法越來越翻新那它對於我個人的懲戒可能先從個人口頭上的一個懲戒然後一直到家人然後一直到什麼商業活動有往來的範圍然後一直到說現在要偵查我想說之後應該可能就通緝或我在想可能應該就要缺席審判"},{"start":74.036,"end":78.513,"text":"那它這樣的一個方式我現在有點擔心就是因為在這一個我在地"},{"start":79.367,"end":108.836,"text":"應該是第四次的時候還是第三次的時候其實在同一天他們也有公佈對我們國軍的這個通緝那這個很麻煩是因為表示他已經在針對我們的公務人員來做這個新戰因為我們也都知道我們現在面對中國最主要就三戰嘛這一個輿論戰、新戰還有法律戰那法律戰去年就已經開始很多了我待會會問到那輿論戰這一個部分我看很多立委都關心講認知作戰啊台灣有沒有在地協力者啊這個過往我已經問很多了"},{"start":109.332,"end":131.693,"text":"但是新戰這個部分我覺得大家可能會比較忽略因為新戰大部分就是針對政治人物跟軍人這兩塊他想要讓他們以後沒有抗敵的意志希望他做出錯誤的決定那因為前陣子國台辦也有公佈針對我們的司法人員說檢舉他們為台獨等等之類所以表示軍公教現在已經被針對了"},{"start":132.754,"end":160.695,"text":"那如果軍公教在被針對的這個狀況之下我們有什麼比較有創意的方式來做回擊我之所以會問這個是因為這一年多以來他們一直這樣做他們顯然沒有什麼成本也就是說他們覺得做這件事情感覺台灣沒有什麼反應那如果我們今天一直沒有一個反制措施的話它越擴張越多接下來可能就是一般人民了所以這邊想問不管是主委或者院長我們現在有什麼比較好的反制措施"},{"start":162.813,"end":186.51,"text":"我肯定相信對方的這個行為不會造成委員你個人對民主信念的堅持還有日常的正常生活反而會激起你更堅強的意志對抗這種極權的政府但是我們都認為一樣大家都知道對方中國對我們並沒有任何的司法管轄權所以他談的是空話"},{"start":188.103,"end":211.812,"text":"我覺得這可以是不是委員有考慮到我們向國際的人權組織或政治組織向他說明現在當今社會存在著一個國家竟然要對他的鄰近國家伸展這個長臂管轄而且用這種莫須有的罪名要試圖影響該人的一個行為上的自由這個應該讓國際社會了解這個極權國家無論他今天經濟力量有多大"},{"start":212.873,"end":218.368,"text":"國家的武器戰力有多強在人權這項上面他完全是不及格的應該讓國際社會來瞭解"},{"start":220.681,"end":247.76,"text":"謝謝院長的這個答案因為真的對我個人來講當然不會有什麼太大的損傷我們都把這個當作是一個榮譽的標記表示我們應該都是做對事情但是對於國際社會這樣的一個發生我認為是重要的為什麼是因為一直以來在很多國家比如說美國在針對中國假設今天中國對他們做類似這樣的事情美國馬上可能就會說我們針對什麼中國的官員在美國致慘然後馬上來做一些制裁"},{"start":248.36,"end":262.613,"text":"但我們說真的中國官員大概在台灣自產這個狀況應該比較少是因為我們對於中國的管制原本就很嚴格西方世界之所以現在可以做很多的這些制裁的動作是因為他們以前對中國不設防"},{"start":263.374,"end":283.402,"text":"所以他們要做更嚴格的措施來反制的時候這個是會有力道的但是我們的管制措施已經存在當然我們在行政上我剛看到前面有很多委員也在問就是說能不能夠這邊再更嚴格一點這邊再加重一點檢舉的獎金再多一點但我們要直接做一個確實的反制對中國要有一定的威脅那個成本的升高不容易"},{"start":284.122,"end":297.272,"text":"所以對於國際社會的一個發聲像我的案子其實路透社等等國際媒體其實都是有報導那在這個當下其實有可能會對他們來更多的壓力但也有可能我們在外交上如果真的要來做這樣的發聲我們的預算"},{"start":298.993,"end":324.539,"text":"可能是有點不足啦我們去年的外交預算這方面就已經有點不足了如果要再往下的話這可能都是一個疑問啦所以當然但是接下來我想要再問就是說這是新戰的部分因為我個人我們常做這些事情我們都知道中國的威脅但我覺得軍公教就像我剛剛提到的軍人可能也還好因為軍人也知道他們的天職就是在保衛這個國家他們也知道他們會被中國新戰會被中國威脅"},{"start":325.399,"end":354.268,"text":"但像司法人員但我知道這個可能是有點法務部可能要回答的問題就是在陸委會這邊司法人員他們在面臨到這樣的一個威脅的時候有沒有什麼方式讓他們知道或者讓他們有信心一點不要因為這樣受到司法獨立的干擾司法人員我認為司法人員都受過我們國家正規的法律訓練基本對中華民國憲法以及所有的法律都有基本的了解在這個情況底下都認為"},{"start":355.891,"end":373.782,"text":"對方無理的這個行為應該不會對自己造成困擾到底要做的是如何保護國人如果給國人更正確的安全的了解比方說你現在要到中國大陸去的人要進中國境內的人你事先必須了解他有沒有注意過你過去的一些言行"},{"start":374.983,"end":395.243,"text":"應該在這種高度的安全威脅存在的前提底下衡量自己的行為我們司法人員也沒有辦法到當地去履行我們的司法權利我們對國人的保障也可能會受到很大的折扣所以司法人員本身我認為問題不是那麼大但是如何保護人民的問題會比較大"},{"start":395.863,"end":424.806,"text":"對 我覺得這個院長提到一件很重要的事情就是因為接下來它擴張可能到一般人民嘛就好像之前其實我們有這個一般人民到這個跟某個委員去香港結果在香港也被抓走嘛所以一般人民有可能對這個認識是不足那認識不足的話呢其實就蠻需要陸委會做更多的宣導那問題就在於說我們很希望陸委會因為現在反而可能需要的人力跟需要的宣導費用有可能要比往年要來的更多是因為我們現在面臨的這個是鋪天蓋地啦"},{"start":425.206,"end":440.532,"text":"是 跟委員報告 謝謝委員您提到這個事情很重要中國透過這個法律戰結合他的認知作戰對於我們這些跨境鎮壓那可以說是越來越變本加厲他是企圖讓"},{"start":442.293,"end":457.591,"text":"臺灣人民被恫嚇然後是分化我們臺灣社會所以我們國內朝野必須要一致來提升來譴責共同來抵制剛剛委員講的一個很重要就是說我們的國人負辱"},{"start":459.212,"end":483.907,"text":"他們也收到很多包括失聯的、失蹤的、被滯留盤查的而且被陸方因為法律被關押的這些人數逐步增加據我們從去年到10月底的統計已經達到233人其中去年才55人我們今年就178人比去年還多三倍"},{"start":485.307,"end":512.254,"text":"這種不管是跨境鎮壓或是我們國人暴露的人身安全確實亮起紅燈所以剛剛不僅是我們這邊被跨境鎮壓我們需要保護國人那像政治人物軍方或者是你剛剛說的檢察官可能心理素質比較強大他不受到這種心聲恐慌但一般國人就會所以我們也希望各行各業都要知道我們應該要團結一致共同抵制"},{"start":513.115,"end":528.654,"text":"共同譴責拒絕中共的跨境鎮壓各行各業應該不要對於被中共點名的人配合他們在繼續的來為虎作倉助紂為虐我們反而要保護國人避免這個跨境鎮壓"},{"start":529.515,"end":557.3,"text":"而且國際社會對跨境鎮壓越來越重視我們應該呼籲國際社會重視台灣的這個個案我們陸委會也好外交部也好都會跟國際社會說好中國對台灣進行跨境鎮壓的這個重要的個案那就拜託了因為接下來的宣導我認為是重中之重所以這個之後我們在這個內政委後我們再來接下來來針對這一點來做這個討論那接下來這一個是想要問這個那個四方部長"},{"start":558.18,"end":564.425,"text":"就是說我先recap一下這個是我在2024年10月8號大概就一年以前那時候不是問你那時候是問顧部長"},{"start":565.222,"end":593.249,"text":"因為那時候發現這個新兵訓練的時候結果在放那個解放軍的影片結果因為那時候其實我記得是台中市政府是因為他們地方的兵役跟這個地方的這個可能遊覽車合作結果放了這個影片那當時的國防部是承諾說至少跟國防部有關的比如說新兵訓練或者說這一個不是本來那個返鄉專車啊國軍的這個偽商的交通車啊這個他們會確保不會有這種事情發生那至於地方政府也會去要求"},{"start":593.849,"end":617.023,"text":"所以這是去年發生的事情,大概也是我覺得改善蠻多的但現在跟內政普比較有關的是替代役替代役其實對我們來講,替代役在花蓮的時候替代役在第二天馬上就出發,其實也是給予了非常多支持我們對於替代役的訓練是一年比一年好但是替代役現在有一個就是由我們的治安維護組,是警察機關召集的"},{"start":617.603,"end":638.75,"text":"那警察官召集他們也會做一些比如說治安維護、緊急救護的訓練這是美式一件我覺得這個是一直我們民防往這個方向發展是對的但是我們在看到這個是新北市的這個細紙分局他們在做這一個一樣這個治安維護者的訓練的時候這個影片可能幫我播放一下很短"},{"start":643.406,"end":663.013,"text":"眼底上方也盖起了铁锁,连对这种飞着来的炸弹,士兵们甚至被逼着把鱼网拉进战壕,希望能挡住它的锋芒,但这些东西对真正的口袋无人机几乎没用,人家直接用天掌多雷打你的措手不及,为了对抗它,还有士兵专门潜伏在无人机航线上,趁它靠近时捡到光纤,好让它彻底失去。"},{"start":664.455,"end":682.755,"text":"這一個就是說我們可以看到上面這個是一個看起來就是類似抖音的影片裡面也有簡體字那這件事情就是當然在地方的執行上面很容易會出現這樣的一個問題他可能找了自己的實資等等之類的但畢竟這一件事情是中央內政部跟地方政府"},{"start":683.175,"end":699.78,"text":"畢竟是一起來協助做這一個替代醫療的這個勤務編組所以我想問一下就是說因為這可能跟教材比較有關係目前來講有沒有辦法比如說統一的教材或者要求一定是怎樣程度的課綱不要說有這樣的一個事情發生"},{"start":700.18,"end":723.244,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教我們會朝著這方面來處理第一個就是說他如果在成功領的時候呢他是有公版的教材可是到地方上包括資安維護組或是其他的消防組的話可能就是地方縣市政府包括兵役局或者他會請退休的軍訓教官那他們可能就是比較便宜行事直接從網路抓下來直接就拿到上面去當教材"},{"start":723.904,"end":738.673,"text":"這個完全是跟我們的原來的想法是背道而馳這方面我們會來做精進改進包括跟地方縣市政府的兵役單位或者是訓練的單位做公版的提供一定不能出現有跟中國相關的教材出現"},{"start":739.818,"end":766.951,"text":"這個就再拜託請內政部對地方政府再多做一些要求不然的話有時候在網路上大家看到就會對於這種訓練可能又會有質疑我們國軍在去年一整年以來慢慢的改了非常多地方然後重拾人民對國軍的信心我希望對於議政署對於替代役國人對於民力的這樣的一個支持也能夠持續的往上提升最後實現關係我再問一下打詐這件事情這可能就要問院長了"},{"start":768.372,"end":797.131,"text":"但是這個有沒有有趣因為我去索資因為我知道大家都很關心打詐講說金額多少等等之類的但說真的打詐其實就是兩件事情第一個就是選導非常重要我們一定要跟人民選導說最新的詐騙手法是什麼大家應該要注意我認為這部分是OK的第二個是當詐騙都已經發生了有時候你沒辦法杜絕它還是發生的時候那個處理速度一定要很快它是跟時間賽跑我發現我們就是跟這個速發部要這個資料的時候"},{"start":797.771,"end":818.4,"text":"有一半以上的這種網路詐騙他們回報以後因為假設今天比如說這是跟農業有關的詐騙速發部就會去找農業部說這個交給你這個到底是不是有問題的如果是的話我們趕快回報給社群平台但是有一半都是速發部在處理為什麼呢是因為很多你沒有辦法歸類它有些就是冒充名人"},{"start":818.98,"end":833.958,"text":"名人也沒有主管機關所以到時候就是速發部來處理但是即使是如此我們可以看到速發部在的一萬八千案件他平均的處理時間是十四小時所以說真的也不算太慢但是說真的應該你可以看到內政部"},{"start":834.398,"end":859.598,"text":"那你這部今天是五千個他一點四個小時就可以完成這一個審查其實速度非常非常的快所以如果時間夠本來想請部長來講一下為什麼可以那麼快但是我現在發現一件事情就是你看衛福部它剩兩千七百個案件它平均要花兩百六十個小時衛福部一直很慢對 那我後來就想說奇怪為什麼那麼慢我後來才發現我的原因是這樣子有一個月突然其中都是在冒充醫師相關的詐騙"},{"start":861.246,"end":884.645,"text":"所以冒充醫師的相關的詐騙在一個月之內突然大量湧入衛福部結果他可能只有幾個人可以做這個相關的審查所以他當然就沒有這個他當然就只能拖著因為他沒有辦法那麼快但是倒過來假設我們今天說好我們把衛福部來增加人力希望他來處理他可能過了下個月另一個冒充醫師的詐騙都沒有了全部都變成冒充別的結果那些人就閒置在那一邊"},{"start":885.405,"end":914.722,"text":"所以現在會變成說那個謠言會跳來跳去在每一個部會有可能衛福部今天很多可能隔天經濟部很多可能下一個月變勞動部很多所以變成這個院這邊的這個中間的人力的協調可能會變得很重要那我們過往有打炸辦公室打炸辦公室這個是不是有這樣的一個協調能力讓今天每一個部會遇到的時候他可能都會有一個臨時的編組然後他也知道guideline知道說要用哪一些標準"},{"start":915.242,"end":931.434,"text":"因為像衛福部我看他們遇到的問題就是他有點不太能判定到底是高風險還是完全的詐騙所以到底要回報還是不要回報還在那邊猶豫然後還在那邊慢慢查證到底是真的醫生還是假的醫生那個SOP的建立一旦慢的話有可能這個速度就會"},{"start":949.121,"end":950.322,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝三位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時34分）謝謝主席。有請院長、陸委會邱主委，待會還會有內政部的問題。"],["主席：請卓院長、陸委會邱主委、內政部部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：院長好、主委好。剛剛思瑤委員其實也有提到，我還是有在簡報左上角上打了一個大大的「涉己案件」，我認為這件事情很重要，重要在哪裡？並不是我個人，今天海委會也在，我們都知道從去年開始灰色地帶作戰是越來越嚴重，他們會步步進逼嘛！離臺灣越來越近、手法越來越翻新。他們對於我個人的懲戒，可能先從個人口頭上的懲戒，然後一直到家人、一直到商業活動有往來的範圍、一直到現在要偵查，我想之後應該可能就通緝、可能應該就要「缺席審判」。","對於他們這樣的方式，我現在有點擔心，因為我應該是在第三次或是第四次的時候，其實他們在同一天也有公布對我們國軍的通緝，這個很麻煩，表示他們已經在針對我們的公務人員在做心戰，我們也都知道現在面對中國最主要就三戰嘛！有輿論戰、心戰，還有法律戰。法律戰在去年就已經開始很多了，我待會會問到，而輿論戰的部分，我看很多立委都有在關心，像是認知作戰、臺灣有沒有在地協力者，這過往我已經問很多了。但是心戰的部分，我覺得大家可能會比較忽略，因為心戰大部分就是針對政治人物跟軍人這兩塊，他們想要讓他們以後沒有抗敵的意志，希望他做出錯誤的決定，因為前陣子國臺辦也有公布針對我們的司法人員，檢舉他們為臺獨等等之類，所以表示軍公教現在已經被針對了，如果軍公教在被針對的狀況之下，我們有什麼比較有創意的方式來回擊？我之所以會問這個是因為這一年多以來，他們一直這樣做，顯然沒有什麼成本，也就是他們覺得做這件事情，感覺臺灣沒有什麼反應，如果我們今天一直沒有反制措施的話，他們越擴張越多，接下來可能就是一般人民了。所以想請教，不管是主委或者院長，我們現在有什麼比較好的反制措施？"],["卓院長榮泰：我肯定相信對方的這個行為，不會造成委員你個人對民主信念的堅持，還有日常的正常生活，反而會激起你更堅強的意志對抗這種極權的政府。但是我們都認為有一樣是大家都知道的，對方（中國）對我們並沒有任何的司法管轄權，所以他們談的都是空話，我覺得是不是委員有考慮到我們可以向國際的人權組織或政治組織說明，現在當今社會存在著一個國家，竟然要對他們的鄰近國家伸展長臂管轄，而且用這種莫須有的罪名，要試圖影響該人行為上的自由，應該要讓國際社會了解這個極權國家，無論他今天經濟力量有多大、國家的武器戰力有多強，但在人權這方面是完全不及格的，應該讓國際社會來了解。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝院長的答案。因為真的對我個人來講，當然不會有什麼太大的損傷，我們都把這個當作是一個榮譽的標記，表示我們應該都是做對事情。對於國際社會這樣的發聲，我認為是重要的，為什麼呢？是因為一直以來，在很多國家比如美國在針對中國……假設今天中國對他們做類似這樣的事情，美國馬上可能就會說，他們要針對在美國置產的中國官員要馬上做一些制裁。說真的，中國官員大概在臺灣置產……"],["卓院長榮泰：不可能。"],["沈委員伯洋：這狀況應該比較少，是因為我們對於中國的管制原本就很嚴格。西方世界之所以現在可以做很多這些制裁的動作，是因為他們以前對中國不設防，所以他們要做更嚴格措施來反制的時候，這是會有力道的。而我們的管制措施已經存在，對於我們在行政上，我剛剛看到前面有很多委員也在問，能不能夠這邊再更嚴格一點、這邊再加重一點、檢舉的獎金再多一點。但我們要直接做一個確實的反制，對中國要有一定的威脅，那個成本的升高不容易。","對於國際社會的發聲，像我的案子其實路透社等等國際媒體都有報導，在這當下，有可能會對他們有更多的壓力，但也有可能，我們在外交上，如果真的要來做這樣的發聲，我們的預算可能是有點不足，去年的外交預算這方面就已經有點不足了，如果要再往下的話，這可能都是一個疑問。接下來我想要再請教，這是心戰的部分。因為我個人、我們常做這些事情，所以我們都知道中國的威脅。至於軍公教，就像我剛剛提到的，軍人可能還好，因為軍人知道他們的天職就是在保衛這個國家，他們也知道中國的心戰，知道他們會被中國威脅。但司法人員呢？當然，我知道這可能要由法務部來回答，也就是當司法人員面臨這樣的威脅時，陸委會這邊有沒有什麼方式讓他們知道？或者讓他們有信心一點，不要因為這樣而讓司法獨立受到干擾？"],["卓院長榮泰：就司法人員來說，我認為司法人員都受過我們國家正規的法律訓練，對中華民國憲法以及所有法律都有基本了解，在這個情況底下應該會認為這是對方的無理行為，不會對自己造成困擾。所以應該要做的是，如何保護國人，如何給國人更正確的安全了解！比方說現在要到中國大陸去的人，要進入中國境內的人，就必須事先了解，他們有沒有注意到你過去的一些言行？應該在這種高度的安全威脅存在的前提底下，來衡量自己的行為。畢竟我們的司法人員沒有辦法到當地履行我們的司法權力，因此，對國人的保障，可能會受到很大折扣。所以，對司法人員本身，我認為問題不是那麼大，反倒是如何保護人民的問題會比較大。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，院長提到一件很重要的事，因為他接下來可能擴張到一般人民。之前有一般人民跟某個委員去香港，結果在香港被抓走！所以一般人民有可能對此認識不足，既然認識不足，其實就蠻需要陸委會做更多宣導。問題在於，現在陸委會所需要的人力與宣導費用可能要比往年來得更多，因為我們現在面臨的是鋪天蓋地！"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，謝謝委員，您提到這點很重要。中國透過法律戰結合其認知作戰，對我們實施的跨境鎮壓可能會越來越變本加厲，企圖恫嚇臺灣人民，分化臺灣社會，所以我們國內朝野必須一致齊聲譴責，共同抵制。剛剛委員講到一點很重要，也就是國人赴陸有很多人失聯、失蹤，甚至被滯留盤查，且因為法律而被陸方關押，這些人數逐步增加。據我們從去年到今年10月底的統計顯示，已經達到233人！去年才55人，但今年就有178人，比去年還多了三倍！"],["沈委員伯洋：多了三倍。"],["邱主任委員垂正：所以不管是跨境鎮壓，或國人赴陸的人身安全，確實亮起紅燈。不僅是因為我們被跨境鎮壓，所以需要保護國人，像政治人物、軍方，或委員剛剛說的檢察官心理素質可能比較強大，不會心生恐慌，但一般國人會！所以我們希望各行各業都要知道，我們應該團結一致，共同抵制，共同譴責並拒絕中共的跨境鎮壓。對於被中共點名的人，各行各業不要配合他們繼續為虎作倀，助紂為虐。我們反而要保護國人，避免跨境鎮壓。鑑於國際社會對跨境鎮壓越來越重視，我們應該呼籲國際社會，重視臺灣的個案，不管陸委會也好，外交部也好，都會跟國際社會說中國對臺灣進行跨境鎮壓的重要個案！"],["沈委員伯洋：那就拜託了。接下來的宣導我認為是重中之重，所以之後在內政委員會，我們會針對這一點做討論。","接下來我要請教劉世芳部長，我先說一下。我在2024年10月8號，大概就在一年以前，那時候不是問你，那時候是問顧部長。因為那時候發現在新兵訓練專車上播放解放軍的影片，我記得是臺中市政府的地方兵役單位與地方遊覽車業者合作，結果車上放了這種影片。當時國防部承諾，至少跟國防部有關的，比如說國軍的返鄉專車或委商交通車會確保不會有這種事情發生，至於地方政府也會去要求，這是去年發生的事情。之後我覺得改善蠻多的，現在跟內政部比較有關的是替代役。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：對我們來講，這次花蓮的事情，替代役在第二天馬上就出發支援，給予災民非常多的支持，足見替代役的訓練是一年比一年好。但是這個替代役現在有一個治安維護組是由警察機關召集的，警察機關召集後，他們也會做一些比如治安維護、緊急救護的訓練，這是美事一件，我覺得我們的民防往這個方向發展是對的，但是我們來看一下新北市汐止分局在做治安維護組的訓練時的情況。","有個影片請幫我播放一下，這個影片很短。","（播放影片）"],["沈委員伯洋：我們可以看到上面這個看起來就是類似抖音的影片，裡面也有簡體字，針對這件事情，當然，在地方的執行上很容易會出現這樣的問題，他可能找了自己的師資等等之類的，但畢竟這件事情是中央內政部跟地方政府一起來協助做替代役男的勤務編組，所以我想問一下，因為這個可能跟教材比較有關係，目前來講有沒有辦法提供統一的教材或者要求一定是怎樣程度的課綱，不要有這樣的事情發生？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，我們會朝著這方面來處理，第一個，如果是在成功嶺的時候，是會有公版的教材，可是到地方上，包括治安維護組或是其他消防組的話，可能就是地方縣市政府，包括兵役局或者是會請退休的軍訓教官，他們可能就是比較便宜行事，直接從網路抓下來就拿來當教材，這個完全跟我們原來的想法是背道而馳，這方面我們會來做精進、改進，包括跟地方縣市政府的兵役單位或者是訓練單位做公版的提供，一定不能有跟中國相關的教材出現。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個就再拜託內政部對地方政府再多做一些要求，不然的話，有時候在網路上大家看到這樣的影片，對於這種訓練可能又會有質疑。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：我們國軍在去年一整年以來慢慢的改了非常多地方，重拾人民對國軍的信心，我希望役政署對於替代役，國人對於民力這方面的支持也能夠持續的往上提升。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後，因為時間的關係，我再問一下打詐這件事情，這個可能就要問院長了。這個有點有趣，因為我有去索資，我知道大家都很關心打詐，例如金額多少、什麼等等之類的，但是說真的，打詐其實就是兩件事情：第一個就是宣導非常重要，我們一定要跟人民宣導最新的詐騙手法是什麼，大家應該要注意，我認為這部分是OK的。第二個是當詐騙都已經發生了，有時候沒辦法杜絕嘛，還在繼續發生的時候，處理速度一定要很快，那是跟時間賽跑。我發現我們向數發部要相關資料的時候，有一半以上的這種網路詐騙，在他們回報以後，假設今天這個是跟農業有關的詐騙，數發部就會去找農業部並把該案交給它去判斷到底是不是有問題的，如果是的話，就會趕快回報給社群平臺，但是有一半都是數發部在處理，為什麼呢？因為很多是沒有辦法歸類，例如有些詐騙就是冒充名人，名人也沒有主管機關啊，所以到最後就是數發部來處理。即使是如此，我們可以看到數發部的1萬8,000件案件，平均處理時間是14小時，所以說真的也不算太慢。再來看到內政部的部分，內政部今天是5,000個，1.4個小時可以完成審查，其實速度非常非常快，如果時間夠，本來是想請部長來講一下為什麼可以那麼快。我現在發現一件事情就是衛福部的部分，2,700個案件平均要花260個小時……"],["卓院長榮泰：衛福部一直很慢。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我就覺得奇怪，為什麼那麼慢，後來才發現原因是這樣子，有一個月突然集中都是在冒充醫師相關的詐騙，所以冒充醫師的相關詐騙在一個月之內突然大量湧入衛福部，結果他可能只有幾個人可以做相關的審查，當然就只能拖著，因為它沒有辦法那麼快。但是倒過來，假設我們今天增加衛福部的人力，希望能夠快速處理，但可能到了下個月，連一個冒充醫師的詐騙都沒有了，全部都變成冒充別的，結果那些人就閒置在那一邊。所以現在會變成那個謠言會跳來跳去在每一個部會，有可能衛福部今天很多，可能隔天經濟部很多，可能下一個月變勞動部很多，所以院這邊中間人力的協調可能會變得很重要。我們過往有打詐辦公室，打詐辦公室是不是有這樣的協調能力讓今天每個部會在遇到的時候可能都能有一個臨時編組，然後它也知道guideline，知道要用哪一些標準，因為像衛福部所遇到的問題就是有點不太能判定到底是高風險還是完全的詐騙，所以到底要回報還是不要回報，還在那邊猶豫，還在那邊慢慢查證到底是真的醫生還是假的醫生，那個SOP的建立一旦慢的話，有可能這個速度就會減緩，所以這個地方可能要請院長協助……"],["卓院長榮泰：打詐辦公室已經轉為打詐指揮中心，它有不同的權責，至於這個部分，我會請數發部處理，因為從一開始設置這個平臺，衛福部的速度就比較慢，但它有各種因素，也不能怪罪它，我們會繼續請它改善。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，這邊就拜託院長了，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝卓院長。","莊瑞雄委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員莊瑞雄書面質詢：","一、有關行政院及內政部推動之「老宅延壽機能復新計畫」及編列五十億元特別預算之規劃與施行，爰此提出質詢，請明確說明政策方向、施行期程及配套措施。","(一)依內政部於114年10月30日部務會報所示，「老宅延壽機能復新計畫」係針對人口稠密及老宅比例偏高地區，率先自雙北地區啟動巡迴宣導說明會，並於年底前成立「中央顧問團」，以「簡化行政程序、導入專業輔導」為原則，協助處理國內老舊住宅安全問題。該計畫並列入「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」，由行政院核定編列五十億元，預計三年內協助約五百棟屋齡三十年以上之集合住宅與透天住宅進行修繕及無障礙設施改善，以提升整體居住安全與機能。","(二)惟目前多數老舊住宅以四至六樓之公寓為主，常因未成立管理委員會而缺乏共同行動機制，致修繕經費籌措、申請作業及施工管理困難重重。又各戶間經常對公共電力、排水、管線等維護分攤意見不一，導致相關工程無法推進。此部分，行政院及內政部應有具體協助機制，以免政策流於宣示而無法實質落實。","(三)此外，實務上許多頂樓住戶為因應滲水與壁癌問題，會施作簡易防水層或無封閉式雨遮，以防止滲水與結構惡化，惟現行法規常將此類設施視為違章建築，列入拆除清冊。此種「為保護建物安全而被處罰」的情形，顯然有檢討必要。相關政策應區分「安全維護型」與「擴建使用型」之行為，建立明確認定標準，並透過技師簽證、結構安全檢測等制度，讓住戶可合法施作必要防水補強工程，以減少行政與民眾之對立。","(1)就教行政院，「老宅延壽機能復新計畫」之三年期特別預算編列五十億元，具體補助項目、補助比例、執行進度及核銷管理機制為何？本計畫是否納入跨部會協調機制，例如與財政部（稅賦減免）、勞動部（施工勞安）、環境部（建廢處理）等之橫向合作？","(2)就教內政部，面對多數老舊公寓未設管理委員會、住戶分攤意願不足之現況，內政部將如何提供法制或行政協助？是否研議由地方政府或顧問團協助成立「臨時修繕推動小組」或「簡易管理組織」？","(3)另，有關頂樓防水設施、雨遮搭建等行為，內政部是否研議檢討違章建築相關認定標準？","我國進入「人屋雙老」社會已為既定事實，老宅延壽不僅關乎建築安全，更攸關民生安定與世代居住正義，行政院及內政部應以此計畫為契機，建立長期制度性之「住宅延壽維護體系」，強化法制支撐與公私協力架構，讓全國民眾能安心居住於安全、健康且永續的環境之中。","二、有關「租屋電費新制」上路後之實施現況與執行檢討，請行政院及內政部說明新制成效、查核機制及後續改進作為。","(一)經本席多次爭取，內政部與台灣電力公司共同推動之「租屋電費新制」，已於113年7月15日正式施行。該新制之立法目的，在於使租屋電費收取更為合理公平，避免房東恣意加價，導致租屋市場長期存在之「超收電費」亂象，並保障租屋族群基本居住權益。","(二)依據內政部公告，新制規定兩大重點：","1.電費計收標準：若租約約定按「用電度數」計費，房東收取之每度電費不得超過當期電費帳單所載之「每度平均電價」；若未按度數計費，則房東收取之總額不得超過電費帳單之「每期電費總額」。此外，屋外公共設施如走廊照明、電梯等，其電費如已併入電費單內，不得重複向房客收取。","2.租屋電費資訊揭露：房東收取電費時，應提供當期平均電價、用電度數等資訊予房客查閱；房客亦得向台電申辦查詢，以確認計費合理性。","(三)惟新制施行已逾一年，民間租屋平台及社群媒體上仍普遍可見標註「電費每度5元、6元」之租屋廣告，甚至部分租賃契約仍以固定金額計價，與台電實際電價脫鉤，顯見政策落實成效有限。","(四)目前內政部並未設置專責檢舉與稽查機制，多數民眾仍不知如何舉報超收情形；地方政府亦缺乏統一稽查標準。若僅以「消費糾紛調解」處理，往往曠日廢時，難以形成有效嚇阻。","(1)就教內政部，施行一年以來，全國租屋市場中是否有就「超收電費」案件進行統計？目前受理申訴、裁罰或調解案件數量為何？","(2)內政部是否應會同消保會建立跨部會查核機制，定期清查租屋平台及刊登資訊，以維持政策公信力？面對網路租屋平台仍公告違法電價情形，內政部如何與平台業者合作建立「自動查核或檢舉通報」機制？","租屋電費新制之推行，攸關全國百萬租屋族群權益，亦是落實居住正義的重要一步。惟政策若僅止於宣導，未落實監督與執法，形同空文。行政院與內政部應儘速檢討執行成效，建立稽查通報及跨平台合作制度，確保租屋市場資訊透明、計費公正，讓租屋族不再成為被動承擔不合理電費負擔之弱勢群體。","三、有關內政部推動《租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例》修法三大方向之執行細節、配套措施及長期租賃市場穩定政策，請行政院及內政部具體說明施行規劃、修法落實期程與後續管理配套。","(一)內政部近期通過《租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例》修法，宣示以「穩定長期租賃關係、避免不合理漲租、強化權益保障」為三大主軸，內容包括：","1.穩定長期租賃關係：租期至少三年，房東不得任意要求租客遷出；若房東確需收回自住，須提前半年告知，並一年內不得再出租他人，違者須賠償租客三個月房租。","2.避免不合理漲租：房租調整須於租期屆滿前半年書面通知，漲幅不得超過官方公布之「房租指數年增率」。若限期改善仍不遵行，將依法裁罰。","3.權益保障升級：房東不得阻止租客申請租金補貼、設戶籍、報稅或任意轉嫁稅負，違規約定視為無效並可處罰鍰。","(二)另為平衡雙方權益，修法並增訂「租霸下車條款」，規範房客如有惡意欠租、擾鄰或違法行為，房東得依法解約；同時強化公證與強制執行機制，使公證租約得直接聲請強制執行，保障房東權益。","(三)惟雖以「三年期租賃穩定」作為最低保障，但並未明確說明三年期滿後之租金漲幅是否仍受房租指數上限約束。若僅限於三年內適用，恐導致房東於屆滿後大幅調漲租金，形同規避限制，削弱長期居住穩定之政策效果。","(四)另有民間租屋業者與民眾反映，租約公證程序繁瑣、費用偏高，實務上多數租約未進行公證，致「強制執行機制」難以發揮實效。若能簡化租約公證流程，或建立線上認證及稅務連動機制，不僅可提高政策落實率，也可兼顧租客與房東之雙方權益。","(五)此外，本席建議行政院及內政部應將租賃市場納入政府可掌握之統計與稅基體系，以利未來在CPI統計、租金補貼設計及住宅政策評估上，建立具體數據基礎，形成可長期監測之租賃市場資料庫。","(1)就教內政部，本次修法條文中，關於三年租期屆滿後之租金調整，是否仍受房租指數年增率之限制？若無明確規範，是否將研議增訂延續性條款？","(2)租約公證流程是否有簡化計畫，例如與地政事務所、稅務系統或線上平台串接，以降低程序成本？或規劃設立「數位簽章認證」制度，讓租客與房東得以便捷完成合法登錄？","(3)內政部如何確保地方政府能即時掌握違規漲租或拒設戶籍案件？是否建立中央監測系統或跨機關資料連結機制？","本次《租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例》修法方向正確，惟若僅止於宣示性條文，未配合簡化公證、長期漲租約束與市場數據建構，恐難真正達成「租得安心、租得公平」之政策目標。行政院及內政部應以此修法為契機，建立完整、可長期運作之租賃市場監理制度，兼顧租客安居與房東權益，共創健全之住宅租賃生態。"],["主席：下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["江啟臣","張智倫","盧縣一","黃健豪","麥玉珍","黃仁","高金素梅","黃珊珊","吳思瑤","李坤城","沈伯洋","莊瑞雄","王美惠","羅美玲","陳永康","郭國文","林德福","陳冠廷","陳秀寳","李彥秀","吳琪銘"],"page_start":135,"meetingDate":["2025-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00004","1148701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00009"}}}