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00:00:46,494\n李文好院長好部長好這10月12號爆發的非洲豬瘟事件我想這整件事情我們除了中央地方大家積極的配合當然我們希望從目前看起來他是單一事件中央跟地方其實都非常的辛苦但是這整件事情我個人認為\n\n3\n00:00:47,716 --> 00:00:52,666\n我們不能有任何僥倖的心態因為目前從報告上我們認為說你們認為農業部的疫調報告說應該是廚餘\n\n4\n00:00:58,717 --> 00:01:26,370\n我們都很清楚知道本土我們好不容易從非洲豬瘟去名之後大家努力了非常久這個成果對於台灣來說對於豬農來說非常的重要本土沒有非洲豬瘟所以豬瘟到底哪裡來的所以我們仍舊要去好好做研究我們才有機會把所有有可能的破口\n\n5\n00:01:27,430 --> 00:01:50,587\n賭注因為即便出於到底哪裡來的豬瘟這還是有一個源頭所以我在這邊我今天透過今天這個質詢我還是要提醒藉由這個質詢提醒院長跟部長在農業部在111年的5月份我們公布了一個行政命令這行政命令當中我認為他有可能\n\n6\n00:01:51,548 --> 00:02:20,282\n是過去還是接下來有可能的破口所以我就要提醒院長跟部長因為我們當時有要求說從疫區從疫區非洲豬人國家郵寄過來我們是禁止郵寄任何有豬肉相關產品進來這個很清楚但是如果收件人跟寄件人不一致或者他首次輸入也不是故意的我們就不予以罰款這是行政命令\n\n7\n00:02:21,443 --> 00:02:25,792\n我擔心的是有些人就藉由這些行政命令的漏洞\n\n8\n00:02:27,014 --> 00:02:52,053\n有可能就不小心他也可能不是鬼但就是寄進來了這就是一個防疫的破口那為什麼我這麼說呢因為從111年到現在為止我們總共有包括有寄進來疑似含豬肉的有可能有豬肉跟相關的豬肉產品有1000件但是我們最後裁罰的只有9件也就是說我們裁罰的大概只有1%我們網開99%\n\n9\n00:02:56,456 --> 00:03:24,406\n我希望他不是不是破口之意我希望他不是但他有可能是但是從這件事情從這個數據上我們就可以很清楚的知道我們的行政命令大開後門這個讓我們中央在這段時間也好還有台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦更重要是我們在這段時間前面我也有講我們肌肉也上漲什麼也是也都上漲這個才是真正我覺得\n\n10\n00:03:26,263 --> 00:03:53,830\n有可能的破口我第一個要提醒的地方第二個我認為更大的破口在我們的衛福部食藥署在2022年2月我們的網站公告另外一個法律跟行政法規我們公告說什麼樣的狀況之下我們可以免抽查自用包括在1000美元以下重量在6公斤以下得免申請查驗\n\n11\n00:03:55,390 --> 00:04:17,718\n得免申請查驗這件事情包括民進黨零數分委員都在衛福部都認為說這件事情是讓疫區的肉品能夠化整為零直接長期植入所以包括審計部的報告當中都講說這有可能是實案的破口為什麼我這麼說過去一年之內就有70萬人次\n\n12\n00:04:19,699 --> 00:04:46,119\n一年之內70萬人士申請免檢驗因為他說他自用我進來的在6公斤以下所以申請小型包裹過去一年有294天有人申請小型包裹這個申請的案件數第一名這個人他總共申請了3000次所以這明顯在我看來他就不是叫自用\n\n13\n00:04:47,441 --> 00:05:04,051\n就是有人當作我是自用但是他就是要用商用化整為零的方式進來我覺得這樣子的破口是國人所不能夠忍受在這段時間無論是陳部長帶領的農業部團隊也好或者是台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦\n\n14\n00:05:05,239 --> 00:05:29,207\n但是到目前為止從事情發展到現在這兩大破口有可能仍舊在持續當中我希望它不會發生任何狀況但是我們卻沒有把這個破口堵住這是我要提醒部長因為這個不是在委員會裡面很多委員在質疑這個問題很多專家學者也在提醒這個問題所以我們是中央的行政命令法規大開號門\n\n15\n00:05:31,248 --> 00:05:43,139\n讓台灣的非洲豬瘟好不容易除名之後有這兩個有可能的破口的源頭除於在這道理說除於不會有非洲豬瘟的問題一定有其他的外援帶進來境外\n\n16\n00:05:44,881 --> 00:06:08,268\n到底在哪裡我們現在還是沒有得到答案我還沒講完我第三個我要提醒當然這幾天也有委員在關注就是說有沒有可能是我們的境外的電商包括在這次非洲豬瓶湯包括淘寶跟拼多多有沒有可能是夾帶的這些東西進來所以到底要不要納管還是要下架\n\n17\n00:06:10,369 --> 00:06:26,061\n到目前為止這三大問題我都沒有聽到更清楚的答覆我覺得這一次是僥倖可能它是單一事件但是我透過今天的質詢我仍然就要提醒院長跟部長這三件事情要釐清否則\n\n18\n00:06:27,122 --> 00:06:52,437\n好不容易中央跟地方都非常辛苦台中市政府的疫調人員也都非常辛苦但是如果有這大開後門用行政命令大開後門包括連民進黨委員都對這些事情有意見那我覺得都覺得是破口那我覺得農業部從農委會升到農業部你要人給人要錢給錢但這些事情我們卻不斷的透過其他部會行政命令大開我覺得這是非常遺憾的地方部長要不要回應一下\n\n19\n00:06:53,537 --> 00:07:17,830\n謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就正如剛才這邊的我先說明一下衛無本身的申請免查驗的部分那不代表他就直接可以通關因為本身如果是符合必須要檢疫的樣品我們還是要檢驗就是防疫的檢驗還是做的那免查驗是免查驗但是符合那個動物傳染病防治法的28條的話他必須要去申報\n\n20\n00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:34,378\n就必須要去查申報就不用他申報他申請免查驗他就不用查驗嗎不一樣免查驗是食品但是檢疫的部分沒有免查驗這件事情這個要特別說明那食品裡面如果有豬肉有含有問題的話他就是一個破口之一嘛他就要檢驗他就要檢驗他不能說免查驗就過了\n\n21\n00:07:35,038 --> 00:07:50,522\n這兩個是雙軌的這直接會去處理第二個部分就是在整個防疫過程中我們有三道防線第一道防線就是邊境包括旅客包括郵包的部分那不管怎麼樣我們第二道防線就是後市場第三道防線就是豬場本身的一個防疫\n\n22\n00:07:50,802 --> 00:08:16,575\n部長我在看這些問題我覺得你們是行政官員其實這些行政命令到底是破口有沒有可能是破口包括連衛福部部長都覺得他們本來也就有想要納官所以我覺得你們好好針對我們我們也會檢討好好回去檢討我只是提醒你台灣好不容易從口蹄疫區除名這經過多少十多年來的努力我要提醒你得來不易\n\n23\n00:08:17,415 --> 00:08:26,320\n有這兩個中央在邊境上管理有可能是發生問題的我希望你進行調整謝謝委員肯定2018年到現在的防治的過程現在我們會針對委員所說的我們會加嚴對任何邊境的管制要更加的加嚴才不會讓我們過去的努力白費掉我請拱部長部長我還是要提到核三重啟的問題因為剛剛有回應幾位委員\n\n24\n00:08:45,671 --> 00:09:03,196\n在這整件事情當中不管是接下來要送河岸重啟的計畫也好或者自我檢查剛有回答前委員說一個月之內你們就會回應說到底合不合適那我就有幾個問題因為\n\n25\n00:09:05,357 --> 00:09:27,645\n對外我們看到需要三年半的時間如果可以重啟的話要三年半的時間我們在跟時間賽跑剛才你雖然回答說我們用電很夠但是我等一下會給你另外一個數據路透社也告訴我們我們現在是用化石燃料在發電這個數據我們等一下再討論\n\n26\n00:09:29,326 --> 00:09:45,161\n那但我有幾個問題要請請教部長就是說我們那整個整個計劃當中你剛說一個月但是美國的密西根州他的重啟核電他只花了兩年兩個月的時間那我要再強調當然要有核安才能有核能這個是先決條件\n\n27\n00:09:46,162 --> 00:10:13,273\n那時間能不能夠更快當中還有一個就是說未來我們有沒有可能在重啟的過程當中我們還必須你們有幾個條件就是說必須要有社會共識這個社會共識是要在做公投嗎還是開國家能源的國事會議是透過什麼樣的方式因為我非常期望如果可以重啟的話時間有沒有可能縮短在安全無意之下有沒有可能縮短\n\n28\n00:10:15,558 --> 00:10:35,085\n國際企業都在看我們AI也好我們要有護國群山也都在看台灣的供電足不足夠除了供電足不足夠我們也要乾淨的能源政策部長我在說什麼我相信你非常清楚所以我要就教於院長跟部長所謂的社會共識是指什麼是要再辦一次公投嗎\n\n29\n00:10:37,665 --> 00:10:49,109\n報告委員就是一旦你剛才講時間的問題一旦啟動了自我自主檢查的話你現在說要三年半嘛那我現在就在講說美國密西根只要兩年兩年我們可能時間縮短但是這個\n\n30\n00:10:52,230 --> 00:11:13,431\n不完全取決我們因為我們的配合廠商就是國外的河山當然是西武我們還要配合他的時程我知道啦所以盡快我希望在河岸無虞之下怎麼樣盡快所以報告院長我要請問你的所以社會共識是指什麼現在再搞一次公投嗎那今年才剛公投完下一次公投是兩年之後\n\n31\n00:11:14,531 --> 00:11:34,686\n所以是用什麼樣的社會共識因為我們在跟時間賽跑我想院長你非常清楚我對於能源政策用電政策國家有充足能源我非常著急所以是什麼樣的社會共識因為據我的看法是這樣沒有核安就絕對不會有共識所以我們第一件事情就先把核安做好\n\n32\n00:11:35,869 --> 00:12:03,262\n但是時間是怎麼樣核能安全如果真的可以確保的情況下我相信大家的意見會比較趨向一致有沒有可能縮短有沒有可能時間縮短我們盡量如果一旦啟動這個我還是要強調因為根據我們的核管法當中如果經過所有的程序走完的話那就是主管機關同意之後我們就可以持續運轉這後續這件事情需要總統跟院長同意嗎\n\n33\n00:12:04,585 --> 00:12:19,818\n我們按照依法行政還是要法律上的依據好那沒關係那剛才我就講到剛才你回答張俊永委員說我們用電應該是足夠即便AI或半導體我們未來有大數據中心我們都夠但是我要提醒就是說路透社\n\n34\n00:12:21,039 --> 00:12:49,606\n批評我們台灣現在用化石燃料發電是全球的反指標這個指標我們現在在亞洲我們是86.8我們發電用燃油燃氣燃煤我們是佔發電量87%高於亞洲的62%也高於全球的57%我們台灣最喜歡符合國際潮流民進黨政府也最喜歡符合國際潮流\n\n35\n00:12:50,126 --> 00:13:10,451\n我也支持這件事情我也支持我個人也支持我也同意但是我們現在化石燃料的發電佔全球的87%是跟國際潮流背道而馳而且是格外落後所以這整件事情我希望我們用電的足夠要是因為符合違背國際潮流這是前提碳跟天然氣還是要分開來看\n\n36\n00:13:14,872 --> 00:13:17,194\n我當然希望我們用電充足足夠我當然也希望河山有機會重啟\n\n37\n00:13:31,227 --> 00:13:49,108\n我們的核能政策能源政策從蔡英文到賴清德過去我們現在目前看起來是菜龜賴水院長我沒有說錯嘛我們能源政策配比也沒有改但是重點是我要提醒院長我們能源政策配比是不斷的在跳票所以未來會不會調整\n\n38\n00:13:52,658 --> 00:14:11,511\n我現在在指我們的能源配比是菜龜賴水你們是非核家園你們的配比是你們提出來配比是你們提出來能源配比是你們提出來我指的是能源政策的配比是過去六年來你們提出來你們沒有改變過\n\n39\n00:14:12,512 --> 00:14:41,646\n五十三十二十燃氣多少燃沒多少天然氣是你們提出來但是這幾年這個人員配比仍舊沒有達標是不斷的在跳票所以我要就教於院長跟部長能源正在配比未來有沒有機會調整這我第一個問題因為你河山重啟不知道能不能重啟我不知道我個人我希望可以重啟但是我也注意到明年你們編了一筆預算在核安會裡面你們未來要發展小核能\n\n40\n00:14:42,126 --> 00:15:04,859\n高密度的小核能我也希望他有機會成功因為他就是多元能源政策配比的選項一種但是我要提醒如果這小核能能成功如果核三也可以重啟的話那非核家園的目標就要做調整了好這個議題完結束我還有33秒吳彥霖這整件事情院長我覺得重點是在制度\n\n41\n00:15:06,308 --> 00:15:34,365\n不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在\n\n42\n00:15:35,765 --> 00:15:36,306\n謝謝李委員謝謝卓院長\n\n43\n00:16:04,352 --> 00:16:07,366\n下一位吳啟明委員之質詢已書面提出\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7039\t11967\t謝謝主席我可不可以邀請院長 卓院長以及我們農業部長請卓院長及農業部陳部長備詢\n26656\t46494\t李文好院長好部長好這10月12號爆發的非洲豬瘟事件我想這整件事情我們除了中央地方大家積極的配合當然我們希望從目前看起來他是單一事件中央跟地方其實都非常的辛苦但是這整件事情我個人認為\n47716\t52666\t我們不能有任何僥倖的心態因為目前從報告上我們認為說你們認為農業部的疫調報告說應該是廚餘\n58717\t86370\t我們都很清楚知道本土我們好不容易從非洲豬瘟去名之後大家努力了非常久這個成果對於台灣來說對於豬農來說非常的重要本土沒有非洲豬瘟所以豬瘟到底哪裡來的所以我們仍舊要去好好做研究我們才有機會把所有有可能的破口\n87430\t110587\t賭注因為即便出於到底哪裡來的豬瘟這還是有一個源頭所以我在這邊我今天透過今天這個質詢我還是要提醒藉由這個質詢提醒院長跟部長在農業部在111年的5月份我們公布了一個行政命令這行政命令當中我認為他有可能\n111548\t140282\t是過去還是接下來有可能的破口所以我就要提醒院長跟部長因為我們當時有要求說從疫區從疫區非洲豬人國家郵寄過來我們是禁止郵寄任何有豬肉相關產品進來這個很清楚但是如果收件人跟寄件人不一致或者他首次輸入也不是故意的我們就不予以罰款這是行政命令\n141443\t145792\t我擔心的是有些人就藉由這些行政命令的漏洞\n147014\t172053\t有可能就不小心他也可能不是鬼但就是寄進來了這就是一個防疫的破口那為什麼我這麼說呢因為從111年到現在為止我們總共有包括有寄進來疑似含豬肉的有可能有豬肉跟相關的豬肉產品有1000件但是我們最後裁罰的只有9件也就是說我們裁罰的大概只有1%我們網開99%\n176456\t204406\t我希望他不是不是破口之意我希望他不是但他有可能是但是從這件事情從這個數據上我們就可以很清楚的知道我們的行政命令大開後門這個讓我們中央在這段時間也好還有台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦更重要是我們在這段時間前面我也有講我們肌肉也上漲什麼也是也都上漲這個才是真正我覺得\n206263\t233830\t有可能的破口我第一個要提醒的地方第二個我認為更大的破口在我們的衛福部食藥署在2022年2月我們的網站公告另外一個法律跟行政法規我們公告說什麼樣的狀況之下我們可以免抽查自用包括在1000美元以下重量在6公斤以下得免申請查驗\n235390\t257718\t得免申請查驗這件事情包括民進黨零數分委員都在衛福部都認為說這件事情是讓疫區的肉品能夠化整為零直接長期植入所以包括審計部的報告當中都講說這有可能是實案的破口為什麼我這麼說過去一年之內就有70萬人次\n259699\t286119\t一年之內70萬人士申請免檢驗因為他說他自用我進來的在6公斤以下所以申請小型包裹過去一年有294天有人申請小型包裹這個申請的案件數第一名這個人他總共申請了3000次所以這明顯在我看來他就不是叫自用\n287441\t304051\t就是有人當作我是自用但是他就是要用商用化整為零的方式進來我覺得這樣子的破口是國人所不能夠忍受在這段時間無論是陳部長帶領的農業部團隊也好或者是台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦\n305239\t329207\t但是到目前為止從事情發展到現在這兩大破口有可能仍舊在持續當中我希望它不會發生任何狀況但是我們卻沒有把這個破口堵住這是我要提醒部長因為這個不是在委員會裡面很多委員在質疑這個問題很多專家學者也在提醒這個問題所以我們是中央的行政命令法規大開號門\n331248\t343139\t讓台灣的非洲豬瘟好不容易除名之後有這兩個有可能的破口的源頭除於在這道理說除於不會有非洲豬瘟的問題一定有其他的外援帶進來 境外\n344881\t368268\t到底在哪裡 我們現在還是沒有得到答案我還沒講完 我第三個我要提醒當然這幾天也有委員在關注就是說有沒有可能是我們的境外的電商包括在這次非洲豬瓶湯 包括淘寶跟拼多多有沒有可能是夾帶的這些東西進來所以到底要不要納管還是要下架\n370369\t386061\t到目前為止這三大問題我都沒有聽到更清楚的答覆我覺得這一次是僥倖可能它是單一事件但是我透過今天的質詢我仍然就要提醒院長跟部長這三件事情要釐清否則\n387122\t412437\t好不容易中央跟地方都非常辛苦台中市政府的疫調人員也都非常辛苦但是如果有這大開後門用行政命令大開後門包括連民進黨委員都對這些事情有意見那我覺得都覺得是破口那我覺得農業部從農委會升到農業部你要人給人要錢給錢但這些事情我們卻不斷的透過其他部會行政命令大開我覺得這是非常遺憾的地方部長要不要回應一下\n413537\t437830\t謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就正如剛才這邊的我先說明一下衛無本身的申請免查驗的部分那不代表他就直接可以通關因為本身如果是符合必須要檢疫的樣品我們還是要檢驗就是防疫的檢驗還是做的那免查驗是免查驗但是符合那個動物傳染病防治法的28條的話他必須要去申報\n438650\t454378\t就必須要去查 申報就不用 他申報他申請免查驗他就不用查驗嗎 不一樣免查驗是食品但是檢疫的部分沒有免查驗這件事情這個要特別說明那食品裡面如果有豬肉有含有問題的話他就是一個破口之一嘛他就要檢驗 他就要檢驗他不能說免查驗就過了\n455038\t470522\t這兩個是雙軌的這直接會去處理第二個部分就是在整個防疫過程中我們有三道防線第一道防線就是邊境包括旅客包括郵包的部分那不管怎麼樣我們第二道防線就是後市場第三道防線就是豬場本身的一個防疫\n470802\t496575\t部長我在看這些問題我覺得你們是行政官員其實這些行政命令到底是破口有沒有可能是破口包括連衛福部部長都覺得他們本來也就有想要納官所以我覺得你們好好針對我們我們也會檢討好好回去檢討我只是提醒你台灣好不容易從口蹄疫區除名這經過多少十多年來的努力我要提醒你得來不易\n497415\t506320\t有這兩個中央在邊境上管理有可能是發生問題的我希望你進行調整謝謝委員肯定2018年到現在的防治的過程現在我們會針對委員所說的我們會加嚴對任何邊境的管制要更加的加嚴才不會讓我們過去的努力白費掉我請拱部長部長我還是要提到核三重啟的問題因為剛剛有回應幾位委員\n525671\t543196\t在這整件事情當中不管是接下來要送河岸重啟的計畫也好或者自我檢查剛有回答前委員說一個月之內你們就會回應說到底合不合適那我就有幾個問題因為\n545357\t567645\t對外我們看到需要三年半的時間如果可以重啟的話要三年半的時間我們在跟時間賽跑剛才你雖然回答說我們用電很夠但是我等一下會給你另外一個數據路透社也告訴我們我們現在是用化石燃料在發電這個數據我們等一下再討論\n569326\t585161\t那但我有幾個問題要請請教部長就是說我們那整個整個計劃當中你剛說一個月但是美國的密西根州他的重啟核電他只花了兩年兩個月的時間那我要再強調當然要有核安才能有核能這個是先決條件\n586162\t613273\t那時間能不能夠更快當中還有一個就是說未來我們有沒有可能在重啟的過程當中我們還必須你們有幾個條件就是說必須要有社會共識這個社會共識是要在做公投嗎還是開國家能源的國事會議是透過什麼樣的方式因為我非常期望如果可以重啟的話時間有沒有可能縮短在安全無意之下有沒有可能縮短\n615558\t635085\t國際企業都在看我們AI也好我們要有護國群山也都在看台灣的供電足不足夠除了供電足不足夠我們也要乾淨的能源政策部長我在說什麼我相信你非常清楚所以我要就教於院長跟部長所謂的社會共識是指什麼是要再辦一次公投嗎\n637665\t649109\t報告委員就是一旦你剛才講時間的問題一旦啟動了自我自主檢查的話你現在說要三年半嘛那我現在就在講說美國密西根只要兩年兩年我們可能時間縮短但是這個\n652230\t673431\t不完全取決我們因為我們的配合廠商就是國外的河山當然是西武我們還要配合他的時程我知道啦所以盡快我希望在河岸無虞之下怎麼樣盡快所以報告院長我要請問你的所以社會共識是指什麼現在再搞一次公投嗎那今年才剛公投完下一次公投是兩年之後\n674531\t694686\t所以是用什麼樣的社會共識因為我們在跟時間賽跑我想院長你非常清楚我對於能源政策用電政策國家有充足能源我非常著急所以是什麼樣的社會共識因為據我的看法是這樣沒有核安就絕對不會有共識所以我們第一件事情就先把核安做好\n695869\t723262\t但是時間是怎麼樣核能安全如果真的可以確保的情況下我相信大家的意見會比較趨向一致有沒有可能縮短有沒有可能時間縮短我們盡量如果一旦啟動這個我還是要強調因為根據我們的核管法當中如果經過所有的程序走完的話那就是主管機關同意之後我們就可以持續運轉這後續這件事情需要總統跟院長同意嗎\n724585\t739818\t我們按照依法行政還是要法律上的依據好那沒關係那剛才我就講到剛才你回答張俊永委員說我們用電應該是足夠即便AI或半導體我們未來有大數據中心我們都夠但是我要提醒就是說路透社\n741039\t769606\t批評我們台灣現在用化石燃料發電是全球的反指標這個指標我們現在在亞洲我們是86.8我們發電用燃油燃氣燃煤我們是佔發電量87%高於亞洲的62%也高於全球的57%我們台灣最喜歡符合國際潮流民進黨政府也最喜歡符合國際潮流\n770126\t790451\t我也支持這件事情我也支持我個人也支持我也同意但是我們現在化石燃料的發電佔全球的87%是跟國際潮流背道而馳而且是格外落後所以這整件事情我希望我們用電的足夠要是因為符合違背國際潮流這是前提碳跟天然氣還是要分開來看\n794872\t797194\t我當然希望我們用電充足足夠我當然也希望河山有機會重啟\n811227\t829108\t我們的核能政策能源政策從蔡英文到賴清德過去我們現在目前看起來是菜龜賴水院長我沒有說錯嘛我們能源政策配比也沒有改但是重點是我要提醒院長我們能源政策配比是不斷的在跳票所以未來會不會調整\n832658\t851511\t我現在在指我們的能源配比是菜龜賴水你們是非核家園你們的配比是你們提出來配比是你們提出來能源配比是你們提出來我指的是能源政策的配比是過去六年來你們提出來你們沒有改變過\n852512\t881646\t五十三十二十燃氣多少燃沒多少天然氣是你們提出來但是這幾年這個人員配比仍舊沒有達標是不斷的在跳票所以我要就教於院長跟部長能源正在配比未來有沒有機會調整這我第一個問題因為你河山重啟不知道能不能重啟我不知道我個人我希望可以重啟但是我也注意到明年你們編了一筆預算在核安會裡面你們未來要發展小核能\n882126\t904859\t高密度的小核能我也希望他有機會成功因為他就是多元能源政策配比的選項一種但是我要提醒如果這小核能能成功如果核三也可以重啟的話那非核家園的目標就要做調整了好這個議題完結束我還有33秒吳彥霖這整件事情院長我覺得重點是在制度\n906308\t934365\t不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在\n935765\t936306\t謝謝李委員 謝謝卓院長\n964352\t967366\t下一位吳啟明委員之質詢已書面提出\n","txt":"謝謝主席我可不可以邀請院長 卓院長以及我們農業部長請卓院長及農業部陳部長備詢\n李文好院長好部長好這10月12號爆發的非洲豬瘟事件我想這整件事情我們除了中央地方大家積極的配合當然我們希望從目前看起來他是單一事件中央跟地方其實都非常的辛苦但是這整件事情我個人認為\n我們不能有任何僥倖的心態因為目前從報告上我們認為說你們認為農業部的疫調報告說應該是廚餘\n我們都很清楚知道本土我們好不容易從非洲豬瘟去名之後大家努力了非常久這個成果對於台灣來說對於豬農來說非常的重要本土沒有非洲豬瘟所以豬瘟到底哪裡來的所以我們仍舊要去好好做研究我們才有機會把所有有可能的破口\n賭注因為即便出於到底哪裡來的豬瘟這還是有一個源頭所以我在這邊我今天透過今天這個質詢我還是要提醒藉由這個質詢提醒院長跟部長在農業部在111年的5月份我們公布了一個行政命令這行政命令當中我認為他有可能\n是過去還是接下來有可能的破口所以我就要提醒院長跟部長因為我們當時有要求說從疫區從疫區非洲豬人國家郵寄過來我們是禁止郵寄任何有豬肉相關產品進來這個很清楚但是如果收件人跟寄件人不一致或者他首次輸入也不是故意的我們就不予以罰款這是行政命令\n我擔心的是有些人就藉由這些行政命令的漏洞\n有可能就不小心他也可能不是鬼但就是寄進來了這就是一個防疫的破口那為什麼我這麼說呢因為從111年到現在為止我們總共有包括有寄進來疑似含豬肉的有可能有豬肉跟相關的豬肉產品有1000件但是我們最後裁罰的只有9件也就是說我們裁罰的大概只有1%我們網開99%\n我希望他不是不是破口之意我希望他不是但他有可能是但是從這件事情從這個數據上我們就可以很清楚的知道我們的行政命令大開後門這個讓我們中央在這段時間也好還有台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦更重要是我們在這段時間前面我也有講我們肌肉也上漲什麼也是也都上漲這個才是真正我覺得\n有可能的破口我第一個要提醒的地方第二個我認為更大的破口在我們的衛福部食藥署在2022年2月我們的網站公告另外一個法律跟行政法規我們公告說什麼樣的狀況之下我們可以免抽查自用包括在1000美元以下重量在6公斤以下得免申請查驗\n得免申請查驗這件事情包括民進黨零數分委員都在衛福部都認為說這件事情是讓疫區的肉品能夠化整為零直接長期植入所以包括審計部的報告當中都講說這有可能是實案的破口為什麼我這麼說過去一年之內就有70萬人次\n一年之內70萬人士申請免檢驗因為他說他自用我進來的在6公斤以下所以申請小型包裹過去一年有294天有人申請小型包裹這個申請的案件數第一名這個人他總共申請了3000次所以這明顯在我看來他就不是叫自用\n就是有人當作我是自用但是他就是要用商用化整為零的方式進來我覺得這樣子的破口是國人所不能夠忍受在這段時間無論是陳部長帶領的農業部團隊也好或者是台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦\n但是到目前為止從事情發展到現在這兩大破口有可能仍舊在持續當中我希望它不會發生任何狀況但是我們卻沒有把這個破口堵住這是我要提醒部長因為這個不是在委員會裡面很多委員在質疑這個問題很多專家學者也在提醒這個問題所以我們是中央的行政命令法規大開號門\n讓台灣的非洲豬瘟好不容易除名之後有這兩個有可能的破口的源頭除於在這道理說除於不會有非洲豬瘟的問題一定有其他的外援帶進來 境外\n到底在哪裡 我們現在還是沒有得到答案我還沒講完 我第三個我要提醒當然這幾天也有委員在關注就是說有沒有可能是我們的境外的電商包括在這次非洲豬瓶湯 包括淘寶跟拼多多有沒有可能是夾帶的這些東西進來所以到底要不要納管還是要下架\n到目前為止這三大問題我都沒有聽到更清楚的答覆我覺得這一次是僥倖可能它是單一事件但是我透過今天的質詢我仍然就要提醒院長跟部長這三件事情要釐清否則\n好不容易中央跟地方都非常辛苦台中市政府的疫調人員也都非常辛苦但是如果有這大開後門用行政命令大開後門包括連民進黨委員都對這些事情有意見那我覺得都覺得是破口那我覺得農業部從農委會升到農業部你要人給人要錢給錢但這些事情我們卻不斷的透過其他部會行政命令大開我覺得這是非常遺憾的地方部長要不要回應一下\n謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就正如剛才這邊的我先說明一下衛無本身的申請免查驗的部分那不代表他就直接可以通關因為本身如果是符合必須要檢疫的樣品我們還是要檢驗就是防疫的檢驗還是做的那免查驗是免查驗但是符合那個動物傳染病防治法的28條的話他必須要去申報\n就必須要去查 申報就不用 他申報他申請免查驗他就不用查驗嗎 不一樣免查驗是食品但是檢疫的部分沒有免查驗這件事情這個要特別說明那食品裡面如果有豬肉有含有問題的話他就是一個破口之一嘛他就要檢驗 他就要檢驗他不能說免查驗就過了\n這兩個是雙軌的這直接會去處理第二個部分就是在整個防疫過程中我們有三道防線第一道防線就是邊境包括旅客包括郵包的部分那不管怎麼樣我們第二道防線就是後市場第三道防線就是豬場本身的一個防疫\n部長我在看這些問題我覺得你們是行政官員其實這些行政命令到底是破口有沒有可能是破口包括連衛福部部長都覺得他們本來也就有想要納官所以我覺得你們好好針對我們我們也會檢討好好回去檢討我只是提醒你台灣好不容易從口蹄疫區除名這經過多少十多年來的努力我要提醒你得來不易\n有這兩個中央在邊境上管理有可能是發生問題的我希望你進行調整謝謝委員肯定2018年到現在的防治的過程現在我們會針對委員所說的我們會加嚴對任何邊境的管制要更加的加嚴才不會讓我們過去的努力白費掉我請拱部長部長我還是要提到核三重啟的問題因為剛剛有回應幾位委員\n在這整件事情當中不管是接下來要送河岸重啟的計畫也好或者自我檢查剛有回答前委員說一個月之內你們就會回應說到底合不合適那我就有幾個問題因為\n對外我們看到需要三年半的時間如果可以重啟的話要三年半的時間我們在跟時間賽跑剛才你雖然回答說我們用電很夠但是我等一下會給你另外一個數據路透社也告訴我們我們現在是用化石燃料在發電這個數據我們等一下再討論\n那但我有幾個問題要請請教部長就是說我們那整個整個計劃當中你剛說一個月但是美國的密西根州他的重啟核電他只花了兩年兩個月的時間那我要再強調當然要有核安才能有核能這個是先決條件\n那時間能不能夠更快當中還有一個就是說未來我們有沒有可能在重啟的過程當中我們還必須你們有幾個條件就是說必須要有社會共識這個社會共識是要在做公投嗎還是開國家能源的國事會議是透過什麼樣的方式因為我非常期望如果可以重啟的話時間有沒有可能縮短在安全無意之下有沒有可能縮短\n國際企業都在看我們AI也好我們要有護國群山也都在看台灣的供電足不足夠除了供電足不足夠我們也要乾淨的能源政策部長我在說什麼我相信你非常清楚所以我要就教於院長跟部長所謂的社會共識是指什麼是要再辦一次公投嗎\n報告委員就是一旦你剛才講時間的問題一旦啟動了自我自主檢查的話你現在說要三年半嘛那我現在就在講說美國密西根只要兩年兩年我們可能時間縮短但是這個\n不完全取決我們因為我們的配合廠商就是國外的河山當然是西武我們還要配合他的時程我知道啦所以盡快我希望在河岸無虞之下怎麼樣盡快所以報告院長我要請問你的所以社會共識是指什麼現在再搞一次公投嗎那今年才剛公投完下一次公投是兩年之後\n所以是用什麼樣的社會共識因為我們在跟時間賽跑我想院長你非常清楚我對於能源政策用電政策國家有充足能源我非常著急所以是什麼樣的社會共識因為據我的看法是這樣沒有核安就絕對不會有共識所以我們第一件事情就先把核安做好\n但是時間是怎麼樣核能安全如果真的可以確保的情況下我相信大家的意見會比較趨向一致有沒有可能縮短有沒有可能時間縮短我們盡量如果一旦啟動這個我還是要強調因為根據我們的核管法當中如果經過所有的程序走完的話那就是主管機關同意之後我們就可以持續運轉這後續這件事情需要總統跟院長同意嗎\n我們按照依法行政還是要法律上的依據好那沒關係那剛才我就講到剛才你回答張俊永委員說我們用電應該是足夠即便AI或半導體我們未來有大數據中心我們都夠但是我要提醒就是說路透社\n批評我們台灣現在用化石燃料發電是全球的反指標這個指標我們現在在亞洲我們是86.8我們發電用燃油燃氣燃煤我們是佔發電量87%高於亞洲的62%也高於全球的57%我們台灣最喜歡符合國際潮流民進黨政府也最喜歡符合國際潮流\n我也支持這件事情我也支持我個人也支持我也同意但是我們現在化石燃料的發電佔全球的87%是跟國際潮流背道而馳而且是格外落後所以這整件事情我希望我們用電的足夠要是因為符合違背國際潮流這是前提碳跟天然氣還是要分開來看\n我當然希望我們用電充足足夠我當然也希望河山有機會重啟\n我們的核能政策能源政策從蔡英文到賴清德過去我們現在目前看起來是菜龜賴水院長我沒有說錯嘛我們能源政策配比也沒有改但是重點是我要提醒院長我們能源政策配比是不斷的在跳票所以未來會不會調整\n我現在在指我們的能源配比是菜龜賴水你們是非核家園你們的配比是你們提出來配比是你們提出來能源配比是你們提出來我指的是能源政策的配比是過去六年來你們提出來你們沒有改變過\n五十三十二十燃氣多少燃沒多少天然氣是你們提出來但是這幾年這個人員配比仍舊沒有達標是不斷的在跳票所以我要就教於院長跟部長能源正在配比未來有沒有機會調整這我第一個問題因為你河山重啟不知道能不能重啟我不知道我個人我希望可以重啟但是我也注意到明年你們編了一筆預算在核安會裡面你們未來要發展小核能\n高密度的小核能我也希望他有機會成功因為他就是多元能源政策配比的選項一種但是我要提醒如果這小核能能成功如果核三也可以重啟的話那非核家園的目標就要做調整了好這個議題完結束我還有33秒吳彥霖這整件事情院長我覺得重點是在制度\n不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在\n謝謝李委員 謝謝卓院長\n下一位吳啟明委員之質詢已書面提出\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.039 --> 00:11.967\n謝謝主席我可不可以邀請院長卓院長以及我們農業部長請卓院長及農業部陳部長備詢\n\n00:26.656 --> 00:46.494\n李文好院長好部長好這10月12號爆發的非洲豬瘟事件我想這整件事情我們除了中央地方大家積極的配合當然我們希望從目前看起來他是單一事件中央跟地方其實都非常的辛苦但是這整件事情我個人認為\n\n00:47.716 --> 00:52.666\n我們不能有任何僥倖的心態因為目前從報告上我們認為說你們認為農業部的疫調報告說應該是廚餘\n\n00:58.717 --> 01:26.370\n我們都很清楚知道本土我們好不容易從非洲豬瘟去名之後大家努力了非常久這個成果對於台灣來說對於豬農來說非常的重要本土沒有非洲豬瘟所以豬瘟到底哪裡來的所以我們仍舊要去好好做研究我們才有機會把所有有可能的破口\n\n01:27.430 --> 01:50.587\n賭注因為即便出於到底哪裡來的豬瘟這還是有一個源頭所以我在這邊我今天透過今天這個質詢我還是要提醒藉由這個質詢提醒院長跟部長在農業部在111年的5月份我們公布了一個行政命令這行政命令當中我認為他有可能\n\n01:51.548 --> 02:20.282\n是過去還是接下來有可能的破口所以我就要提醒院長跟部長因為我們當時有要求說從疫區從疫區非洲豬人國家郵寄過來我們是禁止郵寄任何有豬肉相關產品進來這個很清楚但是如果收件人跟寄件人不一致或者他首次輸入也不是故意的我們就不予以罰款這是行政命令\n\n02:21.443 --> 02:25.792\n我擔心的是有些人就藉由這些行政命令的漏洞\n\n02:27.014 --> 02:52.053\n有可能就不小心他也可能不是鬼但就是寄進來了這就是一個防疫的破口那為什麼我這麼說呢因為從111年到現在為止我們總共有包括有寄進來疑似含豬肉的有可能有豬肉跟相關的豬肉產品有1000件但是我們最後裁罰的只有9件也就是說我們裁罰的大概只有1%我們網開99%\n\n02:56.456 --> 03:24.406\n我希望他不是不是破口之意我希望他不是但他有可能是但是從這件事情從這個數據上我們就可以很清楚的知道我們的行政命令大開後門這個讓我們中央在這段時間也好還有台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦更重要是我們在這段時間前面我也有講我們肌肉也上漲什麼也是也都上漲這個才是真正我覺得\n\n03:26.263 --> 03:53.830\n有可能的破口我第一個要提醒的地方第二個我認為更大的破口在我們的衛福部食藥署在2022年2月我們的網站公告另外一個法律跟行政法規我們公告說什麼樣的狀況之下我們可以免抽查自用包括在1000美元以下重量在6公斤以下得免申請查驗\n\n03:55.390 --> 04:17.718\n得免申請查驗這件事情包括民進黨零數分委員都在衛福部都認為說這件事情是讓疫區的肉品能夠化整為零直接長期植入所以包括審計部的報告當中都講說這有可能是實案的破口為什麼我這麼說過去一年之內就有70萬人次\n\n04:19.699 --> 04:46.119\n一年之內70萬人士申請免檢驗因為他說他自用我進來的在6公斤以下所以申請小型包裹過去一年有294天有人申請小型包裹這個申請的案件數第一名這個人他總共申請了3000次所以這明顯在我看來他就不是叫自用\n\n04:47.441 --> 05:04.051\n就是有人當作我是自用但是他就是要用商用化整為零的方式進來我覺得這樣子的破口是國人所不能夠忍受在這段時間無論是陳部長帶領的農業部團隊也好或者是台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦\n\n05:05.239 --> 05:29.207\n但是到目前為止從事情發展到現在這兩大破口有可能仍舊在持續當中我希望它不會發生任何狀況但是我們卻沒有把這個破口堵住這是我要提醒部長因為這個不是在委員會裡面很多委員在質疑這個問題很多專家學者也在提醒這個問題所以我們是中央的行政命令法規大開號門\n\n05:31.248 --> 05:43.139\n讓台灣的非洲豬瘟好不容易除名之後有這兩個有可能的破口的源頭除於在這道理說除於不會有非洲豬瘟的問題一定有其他的外援帶進來境外\n\n05:44.881 --> 06:08.268\n到底在哪裡我們現在還是沒有得到答案我還沒講完我第三個我要提醒當然這幾天也有委員在關注就是說有沒有可能是我們的境外的電商包括在這次非洲豬瓶湯包括淘寶跟拼多多有沒有可能是夾帶的這些東西進來所以到底要不要納管還是要下架\n\n06:10.369 --> 06:26.061\n到目前為止這三大問題我都沒有聽到更清楚的答覆我覺得這一次是僥倖可能它是單一事件但是我透過今天的質詢我仍然就要提醒院長跟部長這三件事情要釐清否則\n\n06:27.122 --> 06:52.437\n好不容易中央跟地方都非常辛苦台中市政府的疫調人員也都非常辛苦但是如果有這大開後門用行政命令大開後門包括連民進黨委員都對這些事情有意見那我覺得都覺得是破口那我覺得農業部從農委會升到農業部你要人給人要錢給錢但這些事情我們卻不斷的透過其他部會行政命令大開我覺得這是非常遺憾的地方部長要不要回應一下\n\n06:53.537 --> 07:17.830\n謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就正如剛才這邊的我先說明一下衛無本身的申請免查驗的部分那不代表他就直接可以通關因為本身如果是符合必須要檢疫的樣品我們還是要檢驗就是防疫的檢驗還是做的那免查驗是免查驗但是符合那個動物傳染病防治法的28條的話他必須要去申報\n\n07:18.650 --> 07:34.378\n就必須要去查申報就不用他申報他申請免查驗他就不用查驗嗎不一樣免查驗是食品但是檢疫的部分沒有免查驗這件事情這個要特別說明那食品裡面如果有豬肉有含有問題的話他就是一個破口之一嘛他就要檢驗他就要檢驗他不能說免查驗就過了\n\n07:35.038 --> 07:50.522\n這兩個是雙軌的這直接會去處理第二個部分就是在整個防疫過程中我們有三道防線第一道防線就是邊境包括旅客包括郵包的部分那不管怎麼樣我們第二道防線就是後市場第三道防線就是豬場本身的一個防疫\n\n07:50.802 --> 08:16.575\n部長我在看這些問題我覺得你們是行政官員其實這些行政命令到底是破口有沒有可能是破口包括連衛福部部長都覺得他們本來也就有想要納官所以我覺得你們好好針對我們我們也會檢討好好回去檢討我只是提醒你台灣好不容易從口蹄疫區除名這經過多少十多年來的努力我要提醒你得來不易\n\n08:17.415 --> 08:26.320\n有這兩個中央在邊境上管理有可能是發生問題的我希望你進行調整謝謝委員肯定2018年到現在的防治的過程現在我們會針對委員所說的我們會加嚴對任何邊境的管制要更加的加嚴才不會讓我們過去的努力白費掉我請拱部長部長我還是要提到核三重啟的問題因為剛剛有回應幾位委員\n\n08:45.671 --> 09:03.196\n在這整件事情當中不管是接下來要送河岸重啟的計畫也好或者自我檢查剛有回答前委員說一個月之內你們就會回應說到底合不合適那我就有幾個問題因為\n\n09:05.357 --> 09:27.645\n對外我們看到需要三年半的時間如果可以重啟的話要三年半的時間我們在跟時間賽跑剛才你雖然回答說我們用電很夠但是我等一下會給你另外一個數據路透社也告訴我們我們現在是用化石燃料在發電這個數據我們等一下再討論\n\n09:29.326 --> 09:45.161\n那但我有幾個問題要請請教部長就是說我們那整個整個計劃當中你剛說一個月但是美國的密西根州他的重啟核電他只花了兩年兩個月的時間那我要再強調當然要有核安才能有核能這個是先決條件\n\n09:46.162 --> 10:13.273\n那時間能不能夠更快當中還有一個就是說未來我們有沒有可能在重啟的過程當中我們還必須你們有幾個條件就是說必須要有社會共識這個社會共識是要在做公投嗎還是開國家能源的國事會議是透過什麼樣的方式因為我非常期望如果可以重啟的話時間有沒有可能縮短在安全無意之下有沒有可能縮短\n\n10:15.558 --> 10:35.085\n國際企業都在看我們AI也好我們要有護國群山也都在看台灣的供電足不足夠除了供電足不足夠我們也要乾淨的能源政策部長我在說什麼我相信你非常清楚所以我要就教於院長跟部長所謂的社會共識是指什麼是要再辦一次公投嗎\n\n10:37.665 --> 10:49.109\n報告委員就是一旦你剛才講時間的問題一旦啟動了自我自主檢查的話你現在說要三年半嘛那我現在就在講說美國密西根只要兩年兩年我們可能時間縮短但是這個\n\n10:52.230 --> 11:13.431\n不完全取決我們因為我們的配合廠商就是國外的河山當然是西武我們還要配合他的時程我知道啦所以盡快我希望在河岸無虞之下怎麼樣盡快所以報告院長我要請問你的所以社會共識是指什麼現在再搞一次公投嗎那今年才剛公投完下一次公投是兩年之後\n\n11:14.531 --> 11:34.686\n所以是用什麼樣的社會共識因為我們在跟時間賽跑我想院長你非常清楚我對於能源政策用電政策國家有充足能源我非常著急所以是什麼樣的社會共識因為據我的看法是這樣沒有核安就絕對不會有共識所以我們第一件事情就先把核安做好\n\n11:35.869 --> 12:03.262\n但是時間是怎麼樣核能安全如果真的可以確保的情況下我相信大家的意見會比較趨向一致有沒有可能縮短有沒有可能時間縮短我們盡量如果一旦啟動這個我還是要強調因為根據我們的核管法當中如果經過所有的程序走完的話那就是主管機關同意之後我們就可以持續運轉這後續這件事情需要總統跟院長同意嗎\n\n12:04.585 --> 12:19.818\n我們按照依法行政還是要法律上的依據好那沒關係那剛才我就講到剛才你回答張俊永委員說我們用電應該是足夠即便AI或半導體我們未來有大數據中心我們都夠但是我要提醒就是說路透社\n\n12:21.039 --> 12:49.606\n批評我們台灣現在用化石燃料發電是全球的反指標這個指標我們現在在亞洲我們是86.8我們發電用燃油燃氣燃煤我們是佔發電量87%高於亞洲的62%也高於全球的57%我們台灣最喜歡符合國際潮流民進黨政府也最喜歡符合國際潮流\n\n12:50.126 --> 13:10.451\n我也支持這件事情我也支持我個人也支持我也同意但是我們現在化石燃料的發電佔全球的87%是跟國際潮流背道而馳而且是格外落後所以這整件事情我希望我們用電的足夠要是因為符合違背國際潮流這是前提碳跟天然氣還是要分開來看\n\n13:14.872 --> 13:17.194\n我當然希望我們用電充足足夠我當然也希望河山有機會重啟\n\n13:31.227 --> 13:49.108\n我們的核能政策能源政策從蔡英文到賴清德過去我們現在目前看起來是菜龜賴水院長我沒有說錯嘛我們能源政策配比也沒有改但是重點是我要提醒院長我們能源政策配比是不斷的在跳票所以未來會不會調整\n\n13:52.658 --> 14:11.511\n我現在在指我們的能源配比是菜龜賴水你們是非核家園你們的配比是你們提出來配比是你們提出來能源配比是你們提出來我指的是能源政策的配比是過去六年來你們提出來你們沒有改變過\n\n14:12.512 --> 14:41.646\n五十三十二十燃氣多少燃沒多少天然氣是你們提出來但是這幾年這個人員配比仍舊沒有達標是不斷的在跳票所以我要就教於院長跟部長能源正在配比未來有沒有機會調整這我第一個問題因為你河山重啟不知道能不能重啟我不知道我個人我希望可以重啟但是我也注意到明年你們編了一筆預算在核安會裡面你們未來要發展小核能\n\n14:42.126 --> 15:04.859\n高密度的小核能我也希望他有機會成功因為他就是多元能源政策配比的選項一種但是我要提醒如果這小核能能成功如果核三也可以重啟的話那非核家園的目標就要做調整了好這個議題完結束我還有33秒吳彥霖這整件事情院長我覺得重點是在制度\n\n15:06.308 --> 15:34.365\n不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在\n\n15:35.765 --> 15:36.306\n謝謝李委員謝謝卓院長\n\n16:04.352 --> 16:07.366\n下一位吳啟明委員之質詢已書面提出\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.039,"end":11.967,"text":"謝謝主席我可不可以邀請院長 卓院長以及我們農業部長請卓院長及農業部陳部長備詢"},{"start":26.656,"end":46.494,"text":"李文好院長好部長好這10月12號爆發的非洲豬瘟事件我想這整件事情我們除了中央地方大家積極的配合當然我們希望從目前看起來他是單一事件中央跟地方其實都非常的辛苦但是這整件事情我個人認為"},{"start":47.716,"end":52.666,"text":"我們不能有任何僥倖的心態因為目前從報告上我們認為說你們認為農業部的疫調報告說應該是廚餘"},{"start":58.717,"end":86.37,"text":"我們都很清楚知道本土我們好不容易從非洲豬瘟去名之後大家努力了非常久這個成果對於台灣來說對於豬農來說非常的重要本土沒有非洲豬瘟所以豬瘟到底哪裡來的所以我們仍舊要去好好做研究我們才有機會把所有有可能的破口"},{"start":87.43,"end":110.587,"text":"賭注因為即便出於到底哪裡來的豬瘟這還是有一個源頭所以我在這邊我今天透過今天這個質詢我還是要提醒藉由這個質詢提醒院長跟部長在農業部在111年的5月份我們公布了一個行政命令這行政命令當中我認為他有可能"},{"start":111.548,"end":140.282,"text":"是過去還是接下來有可能的破口所以我就要提醒院長跟部長因為我們當時有要求說從疫區從疫區非洲豬人國家郵寄過來我們是禁止郵寄任何有豬肉相關產品進來這個很清楚但是如果收件人跟寄件人不一致或者他首次輸入也不是故意的我們就不予以罰款這是行政命令"},{"start":141.443,"end":145.792,"text":"我擔心的是有些人就藉由這些行政命令的漏洞"},{"start":147.014,"end":172.053,"text":"有可能就不小心他也可能不是鬼但就是寄進來了這就是一個防疫的破口那為什麼我這麼說呢因為從111年到現在為止我們總共有包括有寄進來疑似含豬肉的有可能有豬肉跟相關的豬肉產品有1000件但是我們最後裁罰的只有9件也就是說我們裁罰的大概只有1%我們網開99%"},{"start":176.456,"end":204.406,"text":"我希望他不是不是破口之意我希望他不是但他有可能是但是從這件事情從這個數據上我們就可以很清楚的知道我們的行政命令大開後門這個讓我們中央在這段時間也好還有台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦更重要是我們在這段時間前面我也有講我們肌肉也上漲什麼也是也都上漲這個才是真正我覺得"},{"start":206.263,"end":233.83,"text":"有可能的破口我第一個要提醒的地方第二個我認為更大的破口在我們的衛福部食藥署在2022年2月我們的網站公告另外一個法律跟行政法規我們公告說什麼樣的狀況之下我們可以免抽查自用包括在1000美元以下重量在6公斤以下得免申請查驗"},{"start":235.39,"end":257.718,"text":"得免申請查驗這件事情包括民進黨零數分委員都在衛福部都認為說這件事情是讓疫區的肉品能夠化整為零直接長期植入所以包括審計部的報告當中都講說這有可能是實案的破口為什麼我這麼說過去一年之內就有70萬人次"},{"start":259.699,"end":286.119,"text":"一年之內70萬人士申請免檢驗因為他說他自用我進來的在6公斤以下所以申請小型包裹過去一年有294天有人申請小型包裹這個申請的案件數第一名這個人他總共申請了3000次所以這明顯在我看來他就不是叫自用"},{"start":287.441,"end":304.051,"text":"就是有人當作我是自用但是他就是要用商用化整為零的方式進來我覺得這樣子的破口是國人所不能夠忍受在這段時間無論是陳部長帶領的農業部團隊也好或者是台中市政府也好都非常的辛苦"},{"start":305.239,"end":329.207,"text":"但是到目前為止從事情發展到現在這兩大破口有可能仍舊在持續當中我希望它不會發生任何狀況但是我們卻沒有把這個破口堵住這是我要提醒部長因為這個不是在委員會裡面很多委員在質疑這個問題很多專家學者也在提醒這個問題所以我們是中央的行政命令法規大開號門"},{"start":331.248,"end":343.139,"text":"讓台灣的非洲豬瘟好不容易除名之後有這兩個有可能的破口的源頭除於在這道理說除於不會有非洲豬瘟的問題一定有其他的外援帶進來 境外"},{"start":344.881,"end":368.268,"text":"到底在哪裡 我們現在還是沒有得到答案我還沒講完 我第三個我要提醒當然這幾天也有委員在關注就是說有沒有可能是我們的境外的電商包括在這次非洲豬瓶湯 包括淘寶跟拼多多有沒有可能是夾帶的這些東西進來所以到底要不要納管還是要下架"},{"start":370.369,"end":386.061,"text":"到目前為止這三大問題我都沒有聽到更清楚的答覆我覺得這一次是僥倖可能它是單一事件但是我透過今天的質詢我仍然就要提醒院長跟部長這三件事情要釐清否則"},{"start":387.122,"end":412.437,"text":"好不容易中央跟地方都非常辛苦台中市政府的疫調人員也都非常辛苦但是如果有這大開後門用行政命令大開後門包括連民進黨委員都對這些事情有意見那我覺得都覺得是破口那我覺得農業部從農委會升到農業部你要人給人要錢給錢但這些事情我們卻不斷的透過其他部會行政命令大開我覺得這是非常遺憾的地方部長要不要回應一下"},{"start":413.537,"end":437.83,"text":"謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就正如剛才這邊的我先說明一下衛無本身的申請免查驗的部分那不代表他就直接可以通關因為本身如果是符合必須要檢疫的樣品我們還是要檢驗就是防疫的檢驗還是做的那免查驗是免查驗但是符合那個動物傳染病防治法的28條的話他必須要去申報"},{"start":438.65,"end":454.378,"text":"就必須要去查 申報就不用 他申報他申請免查驗他就不用查驗嗎 不一樣免查驗是食品但是檢疫的部分沒有免查驗這件事情這個要特別說明那食品裡面如果有豬肉有含有問題的話他就是一個破口之一嘛他就要檢驗 他就要檢驗他不能說免查驗就過了"},{"start":455.038,"end":470.522,"text":"這兩個是雙軌的這直接會去處理第二個部分就是在整個防疫過程中我們有三道防線第一道防線就是邊境包括旅客包括郵包的部分那不管怎麼樣我們第二道防線就是後市場第三道防線就是豬場本身的一個防疫"},{"start":470.802,"end":496.575,"text":"部長我在看這些問題我覺得你們是行政官員其實這些行政命令到底是破口有沒有可能是破口包括連衛福部部長都覺得他們本來也就有想要納官所以我覺得你們好好針對我們我們也會檢討好好回去檢討我只是提醒你台灣好不容易從口蹄疫區除名這經過多少十多年來的努力我要提醒你得來不易"},{"start":497.415,"end":506.32,"text":"有這兩個中央在邊境上管理有可能是發生問題的我希望你進行調整謝謝委員肯定2018年到現在的防治的過程現在我們會針對委員所說的我們會加嚴對任何邊境的管制要更加的加嚴才不會讓我們過去的努力白費掉我請拱部長部長我還是要提到核三重啟的問題因為剛剛有回應幾位委員"},{"start":525.671,"end":543.196,"text":"在這整件事情當中不管是接下來要送河岸重啟的計畫也好或者自我檢查剛有回答前委員說一個月之內你們就會回應說到底合不合適那我就有幾個問題因為"},{"start":545.357,"end":567.645,"text":"對外我們看到需要三年半的時間如果可以重啟的話要三年半的時間我們在跟時間賽跑剛才你雖然回答說我們用電很夠但是我等一下會給你另外一個數據路透社也告訴我們我們現在是用化石燃料在發電這個數據我們等一下再討論"},{"start":569.326,"end":585.161,"text":"那但我有幾個問題要請請教部長就是說我們那整個整個計劃當中你剛說一個月但是美國的密西根州他的重啟核電他只花了兩年兩個月的時間那我要再強調當然要有核安才能有核能這個是先決條件"},{"start":586.162,"end":613.273,"text":"那時間能不能夠更快當中還有一個就是說未來我們有沒有可能在重啟的過程當中我們還必須你們有幾個條件就是說必須要有社會共識這個社會共識是要在做公投嗎還是開國家能源的國事會議是透過什麼樣的方式因為我非常期望如果可以重啟的話時間有沒有可能縮短在安全無意之下有沒有可能縮短"},{"start":615.558,"end":635.085,"text":"國際企業都在看我們AI也好我們要有護國群山也都在看台灣的供電足不足夠除了供電足不足夠我們也要乾淨的能源政策部長我在說什麼我相信你非常清楚所以我要就教於院長跟部長所謂的社會共識是指什麼是要再辦一次公投嗎"},{"start":637.665,"end":649.109,"text":"報告委員就是一旦你剛才講時間的問題一旦啟動了自我自主檢查的話你現在說要三年半嘛那我現在就在講說美國密西根只要兩年兩年我們可能時間縮短但是這個"},{"start":652.23,"end":673.431,"text":"不完全取決我們因為我們的配合廠商就是國外的河山當然是西武我們還要配合他的時程我知道啦所以盡快我希望在河岸無虞之下怎麼樣盡快所以報告院長我要請問你的所以社會共識是指什麼現在再搞一次公投嗎那今年才剛公投完下一次公投是兩年之後"},{"start":674.531,"end":694.686,"text":"所以是用什麼樣的社會共識因為我們在跟時間賽跑我想院長你非常清楚我對於能源政策用電政策國家有充足能源我非常著急所以是什麼樣的社會共識因為據我的看法是這樣沒有核安就絕對不會有共識所以我們第一件事情就先把核安做好"},{"start":695.869,"end":723.262,"text":"但是時間是怎麼樣核能安全如果真的可以確保的情況下我相信大家的意見會比較趨向一致有沒有可能縮短有沒有可能時間縮短我們盡量如果一旦啟動這個我還是要強調因為根據我們的核管法當中如果經過所有的程序走完的話那就是主管機關同意之後我們就可以持續運轉這後續這件事情需要總統跟院長同意嗎"},{"start":724.585,"end":739.818,"text":"我們按照依法行政還是要法律上的依據好那沒關係那剛才我就講到剛才你回答張俊永委員說我們用電應該是足夠即便AI或半導體我們未來有大數據中心我們都夠但是我要提醒就是說路透社"},{"start":741.039,"end":769.606,"text":"批評我們台灣現在用化石燃料發電是全球的反指標這個指標我們現在在亞洲我們是86.8我們發電用燃油燃氣燃煤我們是佔發電量87%高於亞洲的62%也高於全球的57%我們台灣最喜歡符合國際潮流民進黨政府也最喜歡符合國際潮流"},{"start":770.126,"end":790.451,"text":"我也支持這件事情我也支持我個人也支持我也同意但是我們現在化石燃料的發電佔全球的87%是跟國際潮流背道而馳而且是格外落後所以這整件事情我希望我們用電的足夠要是因為符合違背國際潮流這是前提碳跟天然氣還是要分開來看"},{"start":794.872,"end":797.194,"text":"我當然希望我們用電充足足夠我當然也希望河山有機會重啟"},{"start":811.227,"end":829.108,"text":"我們的核能政策能源政策從蔡英文到賴清德過去我們現在目前看起來是菜龜賴水院長我沒有說錯嘛我們能源政策配比也沒有改但是重點是我要提醒院長我們能源政策配比是不斷的在跳票所以未來會不會調整"},{"start":832.658,"end":851.511,"text":"我現在在指我們的能源配比是菜龜賴水你們是非核家園你們的配比是你們提出來配比是你們提出來能源配比是你們提出來我指的是能源政策的配比是過去六年來你們提出來你們沒有改變過"},{"start":852.512,"end":881.646,"text":"五十三十二十燃氣多少燃沒多少天然氣是你們提出來但是這幾年這個人員配比仍舊沒有達標是不斷的在跳票所以我要就教於院長跟部長能源正在配比未來有沒有機會調整這我第一個問題因為你河山重啟不知道能不能重啟我不知道我個人我希望可以重啟但是我也注意到明年你們編了一筆預算在核安會裡面你們未來要發展小核能"},{"start":882.126,"end":904.859,"text":"高密度的小核能我也希望他有機會成功因為他就是多元能源政策配比的選項一種但是我要提醒如果這小核能能成功如果核三也可以重啟的話那非核家園的目標就要做調整了好這個議題完結束我還有33秒吳彥霖這整件事情院長我覺得重點是在制度"},{"start":906.308,"end":934.365,"text":"不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在不是在"},{"start":935.765,"end":936.306,"text":"謝謝李委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":964.352,"end":967.366,"text":"下一位吳啟明委員之質詢已書面提出"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（16時49分）謝謝主席，我可不可以邀請卓院長以及我們農業部部長？"],["主席：請卓院長以及農業部陳部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：院長好、部長好。10月22號爆發了非洲豬瘟事件，這整件事情除了中央、地方大家積極的配合之外，當然我們希望……從目前看起來它是單一事件，中央跟地方其實都非常的辛苦，但是這整件事情我個人認為，我們不能有任何僥倖的心態，因為目前從報告上，你們農業部的疫調報告說應該是廚餘。我們都很清楚知道，在本土，我們好不容易從非洲豬瘟除名，大家努力了非常久，這個成果對於臺灣來說、對於豬農來說非常的重要，本土沒有非洲豬瘟，所以廚餘到底哪裡來的？所以我們仍舊要去好好做研究，我們才有機會把所有有可能的破口堵住，因為即便是廚餘，廚餘到底哪裡來的豬瘟？這還是有一個源頭嘛！","所以我在這邊透過今天這個質詢，我還是要藉由這個質詢提醒院長跟部長，農業部在111年5月份公布了一個行政命令，在這個行政命令當中，我認為它有可能是過去或者接下來有可能的破口，所以我就要提醒院長跟部長，因為我們當時有要求，從疫區、非洲豬瘟國家郵寄過來的話，我們是禁止郵寄任何含有豬肉的相關產品進來，這個很清楚；但是如果收件人跟寄件人不一致，或者他是首次輸入，也不是故意的，我們就不予以罰款，這是行政命令。我擔心的是，有些人就藉由這些行政命令的漏洞，有可能就不小心，他也可能不是故意的，但就是寄進來了，這就是一個防疫的破口。","為什麼我這麼說呢？因為從111年到現在為止，在寄進來的包裹裡面，疑似含豬肉的、可能有豬肉跟相關的豬肉產品有1,000件，但是我們最後裁罰的只有9件，也就是說，我們裁罰的大概只有1%，我們網開99%，我希望它不是破口之一，我希望它不是，但它有可能是！從這件事情、從這個數據我們就可以很清楚的知道，我們的行政命令大開後門，讓我們中央在這段時間也好，還有臺中市政府也好，都非常的辛苦。更重要的是，我們在這段時間，前面委員也有講，我們的雞肉上漲、什麼也都上漲，這個才是真正我覺得有可能的破口，這是第一個我要提醒的地方。","第二個，我認為更大的破口在我們的衛福部食藥署，2022年2月我們的網站公告了另外一個法律跟行政法規，就是在什麼樣的狀況之下我們可以免抽查，即自用的部分，包括在1,000美元以下、重量在6公斤以下，得免申請查驗。包括民進黨林淑芬委員在質詢衛福部時都提到，這件事情是讓疫區的肉品能夠化整為零，能夠直接長驅直入；包括在審計部的報告當中都說，這有可能是食安的破口。為什麼我這麼說？過去一年之內，就有70萬人次申請免查驗，因為他說這是自用，即進來的東西是在6公斤以下，所以申請小型包裹，其中第一名，過去一年365天有294天，有人申請小型包裹免查驗，總共申請了3,000次，在我看來，很明顯的他這個就不叫自用，就是有人以自用的方式，但是他就是要用商用、以化整為零的方式進來，我覺得這樣子的破口是國人所不能夠忍受的。","在這段時間，無論是陳部長帶領的農業部團隊也好，或者是臺中市政府也好，都非常的辛苦，但是到目前為止，從事情發展到現在，這兩大破口仍有可能在持續當中，我希望它不會發生任何狀況，但是我們卻沒有把這個破口堵住，這是我要提醒部長的，因為在委員會裡面很多委員在質疑這個問題，很多專家學者也在提醒這個問題。所以我們是中央的行政命令、法規大開後門，讓臺灣好不容易從非洲豬瘟除名之後，卻有這兩個可能破口的源頭！按照道理來說，廚餘不會有非洲豬瘟的問題，一定有其他的外源帶進來、從境外帶進來，到底在哪裡？我們現在還是沒有得到答案。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員……"],["李委員彥秀：我還沒講完。第三個我要提醒，當然這幾天也有委員在關注，境外電商包括淘寶跟拼多多，在這次非洲豬瘟當中，有沒有可能夾帶這些東西進來？所以到底要不要納管？還是要下架？到目前為止，這三大問題我都沒有聽到更清楚的答復。","我覺得這次是僥倖，可能它是單一事件，但是我透過今天的質詢，我仍舊要提醒院長跟部長，這三件事情要釐清，否則好不容易……中央跟地方都非常辛苦，臺中市政府的疫調人員也都非常辛苦，但是如果用行政命令大開後門，包括連民進黨委員都對這些事情有意見、都覺得是破口，那我覺得農業部從農委會升到農業部，你要人給人、要錢給錢，但這些事情我們卻不斷透過其他部會的行政命令大開後門，我覺得這是非常遺憾的地方，部長要不要回應一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員這樣的提醒。我先說明衛福部本身申請免查驗的部分，不代表它就直接可以通關，因為本身如果符合必須要檢疫的樣品，我們還是要檢驗，就是防疫的檢驗還是要做的，免查驗是免查驗，但是符合動物傳染病防治法第二十八條的話必須要去申報，就必須要去查。"],["李委員彥秀：他申請免查驗，他就不用查驗嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：免查驗是食品，但是檢疫的部分沒有免查驗這件事情，這個要特別說明。"],["李委員彥秀：食品裡面如果含有豬肉、有問題的話，它就是破口之一嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：它就要檢驗，不能說免查驗就過了，這兩個是雙軌的，這直接會去處理。","第二個部分就是在整個防疫過程中，我們有三道防線：第一道防線就是邊境，包括旅客、包括郵包的部分，不管怎麼樣，我們第二道防線就是後市場，第三道防線就是豬場本身的防疫。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我在看這些問題，我覺得你們是行政官員，其實這些行政命令到底是不是破口？有沒有可能是破口？包括連衛福部部長都覺得他們本來就有想要納管，所以我覺得你們針對我們提醒的事情好好回去檢討！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們也會檢討，這件事情我們會去檢討，我們會！"],["李委員彥秀：我只是提醒你，臺灣好不容易從口蹄疫區除名，這經過十多年來的努力，我要提醒你，得來不易！"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["李委員彥秀：這兩個中央在邊境上管理有可能是發生問題的地方，我希望你進行調整。好，先這樣，下一位我要請龔部長，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：也謝謝委員肯定2018年到現在的防治過程，現在我們會針對委員所說的，我們會加嚴對任何邊境的管制，要更加的加嚴。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：才不會讓我們過去的努力白費掉。"],["李委員彥秀：好。我請龔部長。部長，我還是要提到核三重啟的問題，因為剛剛有回應幾位委員。在這整件事情當中，不管是接下來要送核三重啟的計畫也好，或者是自我檢查，剛剛有回答前一位的張智倫委員說，1個月之內你們就會回應到底合不合適。我就有幾個問題，因為對外我們看到它如果可以重啟的話，需要三年半的時間，我們在跟時間賽跑！剛才你雖然回答說我們用電很夠，但是我等一下會給你另外一個數據，路透社也告訴我們，我們現在是用化石燃料在發電，這個數據我們等一下再討論。","但我有幾個問題要請教部長，關於我們的整個計畫，你剛剛說是1個月，但是美國密西根州重啟核電只花了2年2個月的時間，我要再強調，當然要有核安才能有核能，這個是先決條件，但時間能不能夠更快？當中還有一個就是未來我們有沒有可能……在重啟的過程當中，你們有幾個條件，那就是必須要有社會共識，而這個社會共識是要再進行公投嗎？還是開能源的國是會議？是透過什麼樣的方式？因為我非常期望，如果可以重啟的話，時間有沒有可能縮短？在安全無虞之下，有沒有可能縮短？國際上國際企業都在看我們，AI也好，我們要有護國群山，大家都在看臺灣的供電足不足夠，除了供電足不足夠，我們也要有乾淨的能源政策。部長，我在說什麼，我相信你非常清楚！","所以我要就教於院長跟部長，所謂的社會共識是指什麼？是要再辦一次公投嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，您剛剛講時間的問題，一旦啟動了自我自主檢查的話……"],["李委員彥秀：對啦！你們現在說要三年半嘛！我現在就在講美國密西根州只要2年2個月，有沒有可能時間縮短？"],["龔部長明鑫：希望！但是這個不完全取決於我們，因為核三的配合廠商就是國外的西屋，我們還要配合他的時程。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道啦！所以儘快……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們當然希望儘快，另外，你剛剛提到……"],["李委員彥秀：我希望在核安無虞之下要儘快，所以報告院長，我要請問你所謂的社會共識是指什麼？是要再搞一次公投嗎？今年才剛公投完，下一次公投是兩年之後，所以是用什麼樣的社會共識？因為我們在跟時間賽跑，我想院長你非常清楚，我對於能源政策、用電政策，國家有充足的能源，我非常著急，所以是什麼樣的社會共識？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，據我的看法是這樣，沒有核安就絕對不會有共識。"],["李委員彥秀：對，當然、當然，這就是前提，不用講！"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們第一件事情就是先把核安做好。"],["李委員彥秀：對啊！但是時間是怎麼樣……"],["龔部長明鑫：在核能安全真的可以確保的情況下，我相信大家的意見會比較趨向一致啦！如果安全上沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：時間有沒有可能縮短？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會儘量，如果一旦啟動，我還是要強調我們還在評估過程當中。"],["李委員彥秀：根據核管法，如果經過所有的程序完成的話，主管機關同意之後就可以持續運轉，這件事情在後續需要總統跟院長同意嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們依法行政，還是要有法律上的依據才有辦法。"],["李委員彥秀：依法行政，好，沒關係。剛才你回答張智倫委員說我們的用電應該是足夠，即便是AI或半導體或未來有大數據中心也都夠，但是我要提醒……"],["龔部長明鑫：但是多元的電源，我們……"],["李委員彥秀：路透社批評我們臺灣現在用化石燃料發電是全球的反指標，這個指標，現在在亞洲我們是86.8%……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員……"],["李委員彥秀：我們發電用燃油、燃氣、燃煤是占發電量87%，高於亞洲的62%，也高於全球的57%。我們臺灣最喜歡符合國際潮流，民進黨政府也最喜歡符合國際潮流，對這件事情我個人支持，我也同意……"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們也儘快地在……"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們現在用化石燃料發電占全球的87%，是跟國際潮流背道而馳，而且是格外落後，所以這整件事情我希望我們的用電足夠，不要是因為違背國際潮流，這是前提。"],["龔部長明鑫：碳跟天然氣還是要分開來看。"],["李委員彥秀：院長、部長，這不是我說的，這是路透社說的，所以要解釋的話，有機會就要跟國際溝通並說明清楚。另外，我當然希望我們用電充足、足夠，我當然也希望核三有機會重啟，我們的核能政策、能源政策從蔡英文到賴清德，目前看起來是「蔡規賴隨」，院長，我沒有說錯嘛！能源政策配比也沒有改，但重點是我要提醒院長，我們能源政策配比是不斷地在跳票，所以未來會不會調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：核四的封存是在馬總統時代。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有，我現在是指能源配比是「蔡規賴隨」。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，從馬總統這樣延續就是……"],["李委員彥秀：沒有、沒有、沒有，你們是非核家園，配比是你們提出來的。"],["卓院長榮泰：在2016年以前的都不要算。"],["李委員彥秀：能源配比是你們提出來，我指的是能源政策的配比是過去6年來你們提出來，你們沒有改變過，50%、30%、20%，燃氣多少、燃煤多少、天然氣多少，這是你們提出來的。但是這幾年的能源配比仍舊沒有達標，是不斷地在跳票，所以我要就教於院長跟部長，能源政策配比未來有沒有機會調整？這是我第一個問題，因為核三不知道能不能重啟，我不知道，我個人希望可以重啟，但是我也注意到明年你們編列一筆預算在核安會裡面，未來要發展高密度的小核能……"],["龔部長明鑫：還在研究。"],["李委員彥秀：我也希望它有機會成功，因為它就是多元能源政策配比的一種選項。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我要提醒，如果這個小核能能成功、核三也可以重啟的話，那非核家園的目標就要做調整，這個議題結束，我還有33秒。","關於吳音寧這整件事情，院長，我覺得重點是在制度，吳音寧已經空降兩次，從北農總經理到這一次，對於適不適任這件事情我希望民進黨政府要去思考，就是所有的職位無論是國營事業、公股行庫或官股董事長，我們希望不是酬庸，他拿到的薪資、薪水是不是合理？院長你一個月的薪水才三十幾萬而已，總統日理萬機，他的薪水才五十幾萬，如果這個董事長的薪水是一年1,500萬，是總統的2倍、你的3倍、部長的5倍！"],["卓院長榮泰：該檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：該檢討！所以未來所有的官股企業、所有的國營事業到底是怎麼樣的薪資跟薪水才合理，我覺得應該要重新檢討，對於薪水太多的，董事會即便覺得要給多一點，那就回歸給政府的一個帳戶，我覺得這樣才合理。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，該檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝部長，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位吳琪銘委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員吳琪銘書面質詢：","（有請行政院院長─卓榮泰）（有請農業部部長─陳駿季）","非洲豬瘟","中央非洲豬瘟災害應變中心在(3)日公布疫情調查結果，確認此次非洲豬瘟僅發生於台中市一處養豬場，屬於「單一案例」，目前全國並未見其他擴散跡象。也研判病毒最可能是經由未落實蒸煮的廚餘餵飼行為而導致感染。","這起個案雖屬單點發生，但也凸顯出我國在廚餘餵飼管理、養豬場防疫措施、以及中央地方防疫通報體系之間仍存在漏洞。為防止疫情再度發生，請教農業部：","目前針對該案例所發布的豬隻禁宰令預定於11月7日解禁，請問是否有評估延長或分階段解除的可能？防疫專家對風險評估為何？中央有無明確的標準與時程？","此次事件確認與廚餘餵飼有關，請問農業部是否已擬定後續改用飼料飼養的過渡方案？對於受影響的豬農，是否有相關補助、飼料價格差額補貼或協助轉型的具體措施？","在非洲豬瘟防疫上，我國長期仰賴基層動防所與地方政府執行第一線查核。中央未來是否會強化地方防疫能量，包括蒸煮設備檢核、廚餘來源登錄、及養豬戶教育輔導等配套？是否有規劃將廚餘豬逐步轉型為飼料豬，並設立相關計劃及補助？","這次疫情雖屬單一案例，但對整體產業信心造成影響。中央除了要確保疫情不再擴散，更應協助地方與豬農穩定生產、降低轉型衝擊，才能真正達到防疫與產業永續並重的目標。","建築機械設備放置場地用地需求","接下來，本席要先感謝院長，協助解決建築機械、工程重機械合法停放的問題，台灣的發展是需要這項產業助力。尤其遇有重大的風災、地震等相關的天災，他們都要投入救災行列，因此解決長期違規停放的問題尤為重要。","在前次的總質詢後，行政院動作迅速，立即召開跨部會會議。正視民眾問題、積極解決！也感謝交通部能接下重擔，大家共同努力把「動力機械設備停放」完善處理。","目前放置問題主要集中在非都市土地，經過本席的努力，交通部已認可於「交通用地之其他設施」容許使用，並函文地方政府受理業者容許使用申請或變更編定，並由地方訂定相關審查規定，但目前地方政府仍然還未有相關作為。","本席也請農業部密切和交通部做好溝通，在地方政府還未釐清哪個局處權則前，盡快共同開會研商，協助地方訂定規定，讓業者明確適法依循流程，變更合法經營申請納管，不再為了違規停放導致衍伸的相關問題所苦，請部長說明。"],["主席：報告院會，本日排定質詢之委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。","現作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行經濟組之質詢，現在散會。","散會（17時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-7","speakers":["江啟臣","張智倫","盧縣一","黃健豪","麥玉珍","黃仁","高金素梅","黃珊珊","吳思瑤","李坤城","沈伯洋","莊瑞雄","王美惠","羅美玲","陳永康","郭國文","林德福","陳冠廷","陳秀寳","李彥秀","吳琪銘"],"page_start":135,"meetingDate":["2025-11-04"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00004","1148701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第7次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148701_00009"}}}