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\"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"追\", \"start\": 643.87, \"end\": 644.03, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 644.03, \"end\": 644.191, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 644.191, \"end\": 644.411, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 644.411, \"end\": 645.932, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 645.932, \"end\": 645.952, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,424 --> 00:00:23,504\n謝謝主席麻煩有請數位部部長國家資通安全院院長請部長及院長國家安全院委員長部長好院長好時間的關係不宜問候\n\n2\n00:00:25,917 --> 00:00:39,999\n資安及國安賴清德總統強調的非常清楚也因為如此2025年行政院國家自動安全匯報跨國網路攻防的演練這個時候為了要做這件事情速發部補助了\n\n3\n00:00:41,261 --> 00:01:06,784\n國家自動安全研究院取得了一個OT醫療工房演練場域建置的標案這件事情我公開舉行過記者會國家自動安全院也有發聲明回應不過因為國家自動安全研究院的聲明老實說我完全看不懂所以今天必須要藉由質詢的方式來釐清幾個重要的爭點\n\n4\n00:01:08,549 --> 00:01:23,978\n這個標案有罪有利標交給大同醫護得標交給大同醫護得標裡面我看到的情況是違法的履約違法的驗收涉及到刑事犯罪行為了但是\n\n5\n00:01:24,818 --> 00:01:37,780\n我們具體的來看因為我那天在記者會上面公開請教的問題我從資安院的回應完全看不到任何答案我們就一樣一樣具體來第一個\n\n6\n00:01:39,233 --> 00:01:58,382\n這個案子在去年12月25號履約期限屆滿前辦理採購的單位說廠商所交來的東西跟標案的規格相符合那因此陳鮑當時的院長說要辦理驗收我們來看一下\n\n7\n00:02:00,117 --> 00:02:26,048\n那個時候簽准大同醫護辦理驗收他提出的設備有按照標案的規格提出的設備是新品嗎是嗎是不是新品跟委員報告那是舊品第一個它是舊品那我的問題來了就沒有驗收那你們當初為什麼會上這個簽程說是新品辦理採購的單位看不出來它是舊品嗎因為\n\n8\n00:02:27,750 --> 00:02:50,581\n請購的單位要先上千層說沒有問題了交給院長院長才批辱你就按照你的指示來交給辦理第一個他交的是新品嗎你說不是是舊品嗎對是舊品好第一次復驗的時候12月幾號你知不知道第一次驗的時候第一次驗的時候你說是27號嘛27號就發現是舊品對不對\n\n9\n00:02:54,884 --> 00:03:12,549\n來把你的資料看快一點時間的關係後面還有很多問題27號就發現東西是舊的對不對12月30號30號是第二次了啦第一次復驗對啦那個復驗所以是secondtime對firsttime是不是27號對27號是不是發現東西是舊的對好30號東西拿來的時候是新的還是舊的\n\n10\n00:03:19,925 --> 00:03:45,789\n舊的還是舊的嘛那我現在就搞不懂啦這個大同醫護膽大包天啦27號告訴你是舊的30號繼續拿舊的來他把治安院當盤子嗎30號繼續拿舊的來結果出具假的新品證明書出具假的新品證明書這個新品證明書是真的嗎是真的還假的\n\n11\n00:03:47,458 --> 00:03:54,392\n現在我貼在PPT上的新品證明書你的檔案裡面應該有啊懲罰人員告訴你這個新品證明書是真的還假的\n\n12\n00:03:56,343 --> 00:04:19,924\n他有附新品證明書但是設備不是新品所以這個新品證明書是假的廠商出一個新品證明書告訴你是新的東西是舊的我看整個履約的過程我看的是瞠目結舌27號告訴你這個東西是舊的30號辦復驗還是舊的但是拿一個新品證明書來想要謀混過關\n\n13\n00:04:22,026 --> 00:04:44,245\n這膽大包天啊第二件事情採購標案上面規格很清楚網通設備不可以用中國製的他所教的網通設備是不是用中國製的是還是不是他是美國品牌是不是中國製的美國品牌中國製是中國製的符合標案規格嗎\n\n14\n00:04:46,258 --> 00:05:08,856\n在這一項裡面有寫不得為中國對所以符合標案規格嗎不符合不符合嘛不符合你們為什麼後來還是給他驗收通過因為他在這個寫在文件裡面那我們驗收同仁沒有注意到用沒有注意到就可以用混的喔是閉著眼睛在驗收嗎來來看一下進口報單\n\n15\n00:05:10,296 --> 00:05:35,153\n上面進口國寫CNCN就是China我們台灣鬧大笑話我們的速發部拿納稅的錢給國家資通安全研究院說要辦資安檢驗不可以用中國網通設備結果那個廠商膽大包天白紙黑字跟你說這個東西是China來的結果你們閉著眼睛辦驗收\n\n16\n00:05:37,643 --> 00:05:58,339\n閉著眼睛辦驗收耶然後現在說同仁沒有注意到對不起啊院長我講話比較直接啊要騙鬼啊要騙鬼啊現在要用疏失沒有注意到來搪塞喔要騙鬼啊你相信嗎院長你相信嗎你相信嗎\n\n17\n00:06:00,738 --> 00:06:28,045\n這一點審計部有在10月初來不用去扯到審計部啦現在你們部裡面自己當初怎麼驗的這已經是百名的驗收不實啊貪污自罪條例的重罪了啦驗收不實是貪污自罪條例的重罪啊你回去請教你們的法務同仁啊我講的絕對不會錯啊結果好這些東西中國製的網通設備型號一片再變\n\n18\n00:06:29,413 --> 00:06:55,695\n結果呢不是由那個設備廠商出保固書因為出不出來嘛大同醫護自己出保固書你們閉著眼睛給他驗收過關然後我講的這兩件事情拿舊的充當新的用中國的網通設備違法違約你們還驗收合格也是對的結果我看不懂啦大同醫護跟紅旗艙\n\n19\n00:06:57,803 --> 00:07:22,474\n說我不實指控他說我們都是新的沒有使用中國製的產品來請教院長洪祈昌講的是實話還是謊話是我不實指控還是什麼還是他不實回應從我們剛詢答的過程當中到底誰說謊是我說謊還是洪祈昌說謊請說明\n\n20\n00:07:27,450 --> 00:07:50,585\n所以他不是新品所以我們沒有驗收那時候延宕驗收到今年3月才驗收你不要避重就輕問A答B啦他說沒有使用中國製產品這句話是真的還是假的是真的還是假的那是美國品牌中國製對啊他不是說沒有使用中國產製品這不就是在說謊嗎\n\n21\n00:07:52,310 --> 00:08:20,632\n最後的問題我搞不懂了出了這麼大條的包結果資安院從頭包庇到尾主席正巧我問最後一個問題去年年底洪祈昌有沒有跑到資安院找當時你前任的院長何全德敲這個標案有還是沒有這個我不知道回去了解清楚可以嗎可以嗎我回去了解一下你回去問同仁嘛三天之內書面回覆可以嗎\n\n22\n00:08:22,332 --> 00:08:48,186\n可以嗎你回去問一下就知道了嘛國家資通安全研究院進出門進管是應該很嚴格啊去年12月他有沒有到資安院找何全德院長喬標案因為我搞我已經完全看不懂啦國家資通安全研究院我們大家都很支持啦資安很重要啊結果出這麼大的包事後cover\n\n23\n00:08:49,631 --> 00:09:13,576\n事後包庇到我開記者會繼續說謊讓人不可思議啊後來資安院有同仁跟我檢舉啊為什麼這個案子到現在還沒有聽權為什麼還沒有移送法辦為什麼還沒有解約上面有人罵誰敢動啊三天之內回覆可以嗎\n\n24\n00:09:18,890 --> 00:09:39,588\n好來請部長最後一個問題部長這個案子剛取答的過程您都聽到了我相信會前昨天治安院的同仁很辛苦啦包括速發部的同仁整理資料到深夜啊相關的說明都給你了現在我只有具體的問題要不要依法解約要不要依法停權要不要移送法辦\n\n25\n00:09:41,144 --> 00:09:59,210\n是這件事情是由審計部他在例行的調查中發現的那這件事情我們抒發部我們是認為說這個事情要不要依法解約這個法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦真的過去有該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嗎閉著眼睛混了多久啦第二個要不要依法停權\n\n26\n00:10:02,691 --> 00:10:26,113\n要不要依法停權該寄過就寄過該懲處就懲處這個一切就是依法廠商要不要依法停權這個由治安院去處理由治安院處理嘛對因為這是第三個要不要移送法辦這個就是法律上就是如果有那個應該移送法辦就是要移送法辦應該啦我現在直接跟部長報告這絕對要移送法辦啦驗收不實啊\n\n27\n00:10:27,174 --> 00:10:45,952\n驗收不死剛剛詢答的過程你應該聽得很清楚啦我希望喔依法辦理不要因為大同一戶新潮流的大佬洪祈昌前任的院長何全德就軟趴趴被人家摸頭包庇成這個樣子這件事情責任一定要追究到底謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2424\t23504\t謝謝主席 麻煩有請數位部部長國家資通安全院院長請部長及院長國家安全院委員長部長好 院長好 時間的關係不宜問候\n25917\t39999\t資安及國安賴清德總統強調的非常清楚也因為如此2025年行政院國家自動安全匯報跨國網路攻防的演練這個時候為了要做這件事情速發部補助了\n41261\t66784\t國家自動安全研究院取得了一個OT醫療工房演練場域建置的標案這件事情我公開舉行過記者會國家自動安全院也有發聲明回應不過因為國家自動安全研究院的聲明老實說我完全看不懂所以今天必須要藉由質詢的方式來釐清幾個重要的爭點\n68549\t83978\t這個標案有罪有利標交給大同醫護得標交給大同醫護得標裡面我看到的情況是違法的履約違法的驗收涉及到刑事犯罪行為了但是\n84818\t97780\t我們具體的來看因為我那天在記者會上面公開請教的問題我從資安院的回應完全看不到任何答案我們就一樣一樣具體來第一個\n99233\t118382\t這個案子在去年12月25號履約期限屆滿前辦理採購的單位說廠商所交來的東西跟標案的規格相符合那因此陳鮑當時的院長說要辦理驗收我們來看一下\n120117\t146048\t那個時候簽准大同醫護辦理驗收他提出的設備有按照標案的規格提出的設備是新品嗎 是嗎是不是新品跟委員報告 那是舊品第一個它是舊品 那我的問題來了就沒有驗收那你們當初為什麼會上這個簽程說是新品辦理採購的單位看不出來它是舊品嗎因為\n147750\t170581\t請購的單位要先上千層說沒有問題了交給院長 院長才批辱你就按照你的指示來交給辦理第一個 他交的是新品嗎你說不是 是舊品嗎對 是舊品好 第一次復驗的時候12月幾號你知不知道第一次驗的時候第一次驗的時候你說是27號嘛27號就發現是舊品對不對\n174884\t192549\t來把你的資料看快一點時間的關係後面還有很多問題27號就發現東西是舊的對不對12月30號30號是第二次了啦第一次復驗對啦那個復驗所以是second time對first time是不是27號對27號是不是發現東西是舊的對好30號東西拿來的時候是新的還是舊的\n199925\t225789\t舊的 還是舊的嘛那我現在就搞不懂啦這個大同醫護膽大包天啦27號告訴你是舊的30號繼續拿舊的來他把治安院當盤子嗎30號繼續拿舊的來結果出具假的新品證明書出具假的新品證明書 這個新品證明書是真的嗎是真的還假的\n227458\t234392\t現在我貼在PPT上的新品證明書你的檔案裡面應該有啊懲罰人員告訴你這個新品證明書是真的還假的\n236343\t259924\t他有附新品證明書但是設備不是新品所以這個新品證明書是假的廠商出一個新品證明書告訴你是新的東西是舊的我看整個履約的過程我看的是瞠目結舌27號告訴你這個東西是舊的30號辦復驗還是舊的但是拿一個新品證明書來想要謀混過關\n262026\t284245\t這膽大包天啊第二件事情採購標案上面規格很清楚網通設備不可以用中國製的他所教的網通設備是不是用中國製的 是還是不是他是美國品牌是不是中國製的美國品牌中國製是中國製的符合標案規格嗎\n286258\t308856\t在這一項裡面有寫不得為中國對 所以符合標案規格嗎不符合不符合嘛 不符合你們為什麼後來還是給他驗收通過因為他在這個寫在文件裡面那我們驗收同仁沒有注意到用沒有注意到就可以用混的喔是閉著眼睛在驗收嗎來來看一下進口報單\n310296\t335153\t上面進口國寫CN CN就是China我們台灣鬧大笑話我們的速發部拿納稅的錢給國家資通安全研究院說要辦資安檢驗不可以用中國網通設備結果那個廠商膽大包天白紙黑字跟你說這個東西是China來的結果你們閉著眼睛辦驗收\n337643\t358339\t閉著眼睛辦驗收耶然後現在說同仁沒有注意到對不起啊 院長我講話比較直接啊 要騙鬼啊要騙鬼啊現在要用疏失 沒有注意到來搪塞喔要騙鬼啊你相信嗎 院長 你相信嗎你相信嗎\n360738\t388045\t這一點 審計部有在10月初來不用去扯到審計部啦現在你們部裡面自己當初怎麼驗的這已經是百名的驗收不實啊貪污自罪條例的重罪了啦驗收不實是貪污自罪條例的重罪啊你回去請教你們的法務同仁啊我講的絕對不會錯啊結果 好這些東西中國製的網通設備型號一片再變\n389413\t415695\t結果呢不是由那個設備廠商出保固書因為出不出來嘛大同醫護自己出保固書你們閉著眼睛給他驗收過關然後我講的這兩件事情拿舊的充當新的用中國的網通設備違法違約你們還驗收合格也是對的結果我看不懂啦大同醫護跟紅旗艙\n417803\t442474\t說我不實指控他說我們都是新的沒有使用中國製的產品來請教院長洪祈昌講的是實話還是謊話是我不實指控還是什麼還是他不實回應從我們剛詢答的過程當中到底誰說謊是我說謊還是洪祈昌說謊請說明\n447450\t470585\t所以他不是新品所以我們沒有驗收那時候延宕驗收到今年3月才驗收你不要避重就輕問A答B啦他說沒有使用中國製產品這句話是真的還是假的是真的還是假的那是美國品牌中國製對啊他不是說沒有使用中國產製品這不就是在說謊嗎\n472310\t500632\t最後的問題我搞不懂了出了這麼大條的包結果資安院從頭包庇到尾主席正巧我問最後一個問題去年年底洪祈昌有沒有跑到資安院找當時你前任的院長何全德敲這個標案 有還是沒有這個我不知道回去了解清楚可以嗎可以嗎我回去了解一下你回去問同仁嘛三天之內書面回覆可以嗎\n502332\t528186\t可以嗎 你回去問一下就知道了嘛國家資通安全研究院進出門 進管是應該很嚴格啊去年12月他有沒有到資安院找何全德院長喬標案因為我搞 我已經完全看不懂啦國家資通安全研究院我們大家都很支持啦資安很重要啊結果出這麼大的包事後cover\n529631\t553576\t事後包庇到我開記者會繼續說謊讓人不可思議啊後來資安院有同仁跟我檢舉啊為什麼這個案子到現在還沒有聽權為什麼還沒有移送法辦為什麼還沒有解約上面有人罵誰敢動啊三天之內回覆可以嗎\n558890\t579588\t好來請部長最後一個問題部長這個案子剛取答的過程您都聽到了我相信會前昨天治安院的同仁很辛苦啦包括速發部的同仁整理資料到深夜啊相關的說明都給你了現在我只有具體的問題要不要依法解約要不要依法停權要不要移送法辦\n581144\t599210\t是這件事情是由審計部他在例行的調查中發現的那這件事情我們抒發部我們是認為說這個事情要不要依法解約這個法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦真的過去有該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嗎閉著眼睛混了多久啦第二個要不要依法停權\n602691\t626113\t要不要依法停權該寄過就寄過 該懲處就懲處這個一切就是依法廠商要不要依法停權這個由治安院去處理由治安院處理嘛對 因為這是第三個 要不要移送法辦這個就是法律上就是如果有那個應該移送法辦就是要移送法辦應該啦 我現在直接跟部長報告這絕對要移送法辦啦 驗收不實啊\n627174\t645952\t驗收不死 剛剛詢答的過程你應該聽得很清楚啦我希望喔 依法辦理不要因為大同一戶新潮流的大佬洪祈昌前任的院長何全德就軟趴趴被人家摸頭包庇成這個樣子這件事情責任一定要追究到底謝謝謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請數位部部長國家資通安全院院長請部長及院長國家安全院委員長部長好 院長好 時間的關係不宜問候\n資安及國安賴清德總統強調的非常清楚也因為如此2025年行政院國家自動安全匯報跨國網路攻防的演練這個時候為了要做這件事情速發部補助了\n國家自動安全研究院取得了一個OT醫療工房演練場域建置的標案這件事情我公開舉行過記者會國家自動安全院也有發聲明回應不過因為國家自動安全研究院的聲明老實說我完全看不懂所以今天必須要藉由質詢的方式來釐清幾個重要的爭點\n這個標案有罪有利標交給大同醫護得標交給大同醫護得標裡面我看到的情況是違法的履約違法的驗收涉及到刑事犯罪行為了但是\n我們具體的來看因為我那天在記者會上面公開請教的問題我從資安院的回應完全看不到任何答案我們就一樣一樣具體來第一個\n這個案子在去年12月25號履約期限屆滿前辦理採購的單位說廠商所交來的東西跟標案的規格相符合那因此陳鮑當時的院長說要辦理驗收我們來看一下\n那個時候簽准大同醫護辦理驗收他提出的設備有按照標案的規格提出的設備是新品嗎 是嗎是不是新品跟委員報告 那是舊品第一個它是舊品 那我的問題來了就沒有驗收那你們當初為什麼會上這個簽程說是新品辦理採購的單位看不出來它是舊品嗎因為\n請購的單位要先上千層說沒有問題了交給院長 院長才批辱你就按照你的指示來交給辦理第一個 他交的是新品嗎你說不是 是舊品嗎對 是舊品好 第一次復驗的時候12月幾號你知不知道第一次驗的時候第一次驗的時候你說是27號嘛27號就發現是舊品對不對\n來把你的資料看快一點時間的關係後面還有很多問題27號就發現東西是舊的對不對12月30號30號是第二次了啦第一次復驗對啦那個復驗所以是second time對first time是不是27號對27號是不是發現東西是舊的對好30號東西拿來的時候是新的還是舊的\n舊的 還是舊的嘛那我現在就搞不懂啦這個大同醫護膽大包天啦27號告訴你是舊的30號繼續拿舊的來他把治安院當盤子嗎30號繼續拿舊的來結果出具假的新品證明書出具假的新品證明書 這個新品證明書是真的嗎是真的還假的\n現在我貼在PPT上的新品證明書你的檔案裡面應該有啊懲罰人員告訴你這個新品證明書是真的還假的\n他有附新品證明書但是設備不是新品所以這個新品證明書是假的廠商出一個新品證明書告訴你是新的東西是舊的我看整個履約的過程我看的是瞠目結舌27號告訴你這個東西是舊的30號辦復驗還是舊的但是拿一個新品證明書來想要謀混過關\n這膽大包天啊第二件事情採購標案上面規格很清楚網通設備不可以用中國製的他所教的網通設備是不是用中國製的 是還是不是他是美國品牌是不是中國製的美國品牌中國製是中國製的符合標案規格嗎\n在這一項裡面有寫不得為中國對 所以符合標案規格嗎不符合不符合嘛 不符合你們為什麼後來還是給他驗收通過因為他在這個寫在文件裡面那我們驗收同仁沒有注意到用沒有注意到就可以用混的喔是閉著眼睛在驗收嗎來來看一下進口報單\n上面進口國寫CN CN就是China我們台灣鬧大笑話我們的速發部拿納稅的錢給國家資通安全研究院說要辦資安檢驗不可以用中國網通設備結果那個廠商膽大包天白紙黑字跟你說這個東西是China來的結果你們閉著眼睛辦驗收\n閉著眼睛辦驗收耶然後現在說同仁沒有注意到對不起啊 院長我講話比較直接啊 要騙鬼啊要騙鬼啊現在要用疏失 沒有注意到來搪塞喔要騙鬼啊你相信嗎 院長 你相信嗎你相信嗎\n這一點 審計部有在10月初來不用去扯到審計部啦現在你們部裡面自己當初怎麼驗的這已經是百名的驗收不實啊貪污自罪條例的重罪了啦驗收不實是貪污自罪條例的重罪啊你回去請教你們的法務同仁啊我講的絕對不會錯啊結果 好這些東西中國製的網通設備型號一片再變\n結果呢不是由那個設備廠商出保固書因為出不出來嘛大同醫護自己出保固書你們閉著眼睛給他驗收過關然後我講的這兩件事情拿舊的充當新的用中國的網通設備違法違約你們還驗收合格也是對的結果我看不懂啦大同醫護跟紅旗艙\n說我不實指控他說我們都是新的沒有使用中國製的產品來請教院長洪祈昌講的是實話還是謊話是我不實指控還是什麼還是他不實回應從我們剛詢答的過程當中到底誰說謊是我說謊還是洪祈昌說謊請說明\n所以他不是新品所以我們沒有驗收那時候延宕驗收到今年3月才驗收你不要避重就輕問A答B啦他說沒有使用中國製產品這句話是真的還是假的是真的還是假的那是美國品牌中國製對啊他不是說沒有使用中國產製品這不就是在說謊嗎\n最後的問題我搞不懂了出了這麼大條的包結果資安院從頭包庇到尾主席正巧我問最後一個問題去年年底洪祈昌有沒有跑到資安院找當時你前任的院長何全德敲這個標案 有還是沒有這個我不知道回去了解清楚可以嗎可以嗎我回去了解一下你回去問同仁嘛三天之內書面回覆可以嗎\n可以嗎 你回去問一下就知道了嘛國家資通安全研究院進出門 進管是應該很嚴格啊去年12月他有沒有到資安院找何全德院長喬標案因為我搞 我已經完全看不懂啦國家資通安全研究院我們大家都很支持啦資安很重要啊結果出這麼大的包事後cover\n事後包庇到我開記者會繼續說謊讓人不可思議啊後來資安院有同仁跟我檢舉啊為什麼這個案子到現在還沒有聽權為什麼還沒有移送法辦為什麼還沒有解約上面有人罵誰敢動啊三天之內回覆可以嗎\n好來請部長最後一個問題部長這個案子剛取答的過程您都聽到了我相信會前昨天治安院的同仁很辛苦啦包括速發部的同仁整理資料到深夜啊相關的說明都給你了現在我只有具體的問題要不要依法解約要不要依法停權要不要移送法辦\n是這件事情是由審計部他在例行的調查中發現的那這件事情我們抒發部我們是認為說這個事情要不要依法解約這個法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦真的過去有該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嗎閉著眼睛混了多久啦第二個要不要依法停權\n要不要依法停權該寄過就寄過 該懲處就懲處這個一切就是依法廠商要不要依法停權這個由治安院去處理由治安院處理嘛對 因為這是第三個 要不要移送法辦這個就是法律上就是如果有那個應該移送法辦就是要移送法辦應該啦 我現在直接跟部長報告這絕對要移送法辦啦 驗收不實啊\n驗收不死 剛剛詢答的過程你應該聽得很清楚啦我希望喔 依法辦理不要因為大同一戶新潮流的大佬洪祈昌前任的院長何全德就軟趴趴被人家摸頭包庇成這個樣子這件事情責任一定要追究到底謝謝謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.424 --> 00:23.504\n謝謝主席麻煩有請數位部部長國家資通安全院院長請部長及院長國家安全院委員長部長好院長好時間的關係不宜問候\n\n00:25.917 --> 00:39.999\n資安及國安賴清德總統強調的非常清楚也因為如此2025年行政院國家自動安全匯報跨國網路攻防的演練這個時候為了要做這件事情速發部補助了\n\n00:41.261 --> 01:06.784\n國家自動安全研究院取得了一個OT醫療工房演練場域建置的標案這件事情我公開舉行過記者會國家自動安全院也有發聲明回應不過因為國家自動安全研究院的聲明老實說我完全看不懂所以今天必須要藉由質詢的方式來釐清幾個重要的爭點\n\n01:08.549 --> 01:23.978\n這個標案有罪有利標交給大同醫護得標交給大同醫護得標裡面我看到的情況是違法的履約違法的驗收涉及到刑事犯罪行為了但是\n\n01:24.818 --> 01:37.780\n我們具體的來看因為我那天在記者會上面公開請教的問題我從資安院的回應完全看不到任何答案我們就一樣一樣具體來第一個\n\n01:39.233 --> 01:58.382\n這個案子在去年12月25號履約期限屆滿前辦理採購的單位說廠商所交來的東西跟標案的規格相符合那因此陳鮑當時的院長說要辦理驗收我們來看一下\n\n02:00.117 --> 02:26.048\n那個時候簽准大同醫護辦理驗收他提出的設備有按照標案的規格提出的設備是新品嗎是嗎是不是新品跟委員報告那是舊品第一個它是舊品那我的問題來了就沒有驗收那你們當初為什麼會上這個簽程說是新品辦理採購的單位看不出來它是舊品嗎因為\n\n02:27.750 --> 02:50.581\n請購的單位要先上千層說沒有問題了交給院長院長才批辱你就按照你的指示來交給辦理第一個他交的是新品嗎你說不是是舊品嗎對是舊品好第一次復驗的時候12月幾號你知不知道第一次驗的時候第一次驗的時候你說是27號嘛27號就發現是舊品對不對\n\n02:54.884 --> 03:12.549\n來把你的資料看快一點時間的關係後面還有很多問題27號就發現東西是舊的對不對12月30號30號是第二次了啦第一次復驗對啦那個復驗所以是secondtime對firsttime是不是27號對27號是不是發現東西是舊的對好30號東西拿來的時候是新的還是舊的\n\n03:19.925 --> 03:45.789\n舊的還是舊的嘛那我現在就搞不懂啦這個大同醫護膽大包天啦27號告訴你是舊的30號繼續拿舊的來他把治安院當盤子嗎30號繼續拿舊的來結果出具假的新品證明書出具假的新品證明書這個新品證明書是真的嗎是真的還假的\n\n03:47.458 --> 03:54.392\n現在我貼在PPT上的新品證明書你的檔案裡面應該有啊懲罰人員告訴你這個新品證明書是真的還假的\n\n03:56.343 --> 04:19.924\n他有附新品證明書但是設備不是新品所以這個新品證明書是假的廠商出一個新品證明書告訴你是新的東西是舊的我看整個履約的過程我看的是瞠目結舌27號告訴你這個東西是舊的30號辦復驗還是舊的但是拿一個新品證明書來想要謀混過關\n\n04:22.026 --> 04:44.245\n這膽大包天啊第二件事情採購標案上面規格很清楚網通設備不可以用中國製的他所教的網通設備是不是用中國製的是還是不是他是美國品牌是不是中國製的美國品牌中國製是中國製的符合標案規格嗎\n\n04:46.258 --> 05:08.856\n在這一項裡面有寫不得為中國對所以符合標案規格嗎不符合不符合嘛不符合你們為什麼後來還是給他驗收通過因為他在這個寫在文件裡面那我們驗收同仁沒有注意到用沒有注意到就可以用混的喔是閉著眼睛在驗收嗎來來看一下進口報單\n\n05:10.296 --> 05:35.153\n上面進口國寫CNCN就是China我們台灣鬧大笑話我們的速發部拿納稅的錢給國家資通安全研究院說要辦資安檢驗不可以用中國網通設備結果那個廠商膽大包天白紙黑字跟你說這個東西是China來的結果你們閉著眼睛辦驗收\n\n05:37.643 --> 05:58.339\n閉著眼睛辦驗收耶然後現在說同仁沒有注意到對不起啊院長我講話比較直接啊要騙鬼啊要騙鬼啊現在要用疏失沒有注意到來搪塞喔要騙鬼啊你相信嗎院長你相信嗎你相信嗎\n\n06:00.738 --> 06:28.045\n這一點審計部有在10月初來不用去扯到審計部啦現在你們部裡面自己當初怎麼驗的這已經是百名的驗收不實啊貪污自罪條例的重罪了啦驗收不實是貪污自罪條例的重罪啊你回去請教你們的法務同仁啊我講的絕對不會錯啊結果好這些東西中國製的網通設備型號一片再變\n\n06:29.413 --> 06:55.695\n結果呢不是由那個設備廠商出保固書因為出不出來嘛大同醫護自己出保固書你們閉著眼睛給他驗收過關然後我講的這兩件事情拿舊的充當新的用中國的網通設備違法違約你們還驗收合格也是對的結果我看不懂啦大同醫護跟紅旗艙\n\n06:57.803 --> 07:22.474\n說我不實指控他說我們都是新的沒有使用中國製的產品來請教院長洪祈昌講的是實話還是謊話是我不實指控還是什麼還是他不實回應從我們剛詢答的過程當中到底誰說謊是我說謊還是洪祈昌說謊請說明\n\n07:27.450 --> 07:50.585\n所以他不是新品所以我們沒有驗收那時候延宕驗收到今年3月才驗收你不要避重就輕問A答B啦他說沒有使用中國製產品這句話是真的還是假的是真的還是假的那是美國品牌中國製對啊他不是說沒有使用中國產製品這不就是在說謊嗎\n\n07:52.310 --> 08:20.632\n最後的問題我搞不懂了出了這麼大條的包結果資安院從頭包庇到尾主席正巧我問最後一個問題去年年底洪祈昌有沒有跑到資安院找當時你前任的院長何全德敲這個標案有還是沒有這個我不知道回去了解清楚可以嗎可以嗎我回去了解一下你回去問同仁嘛三天之內書面回覆可以嗎\n\n08:22.332 --> 08:48.186\n可以嗎你回去問一下就知道了嘛國家資通安全研究院進出門進管是應該很嚴格啊去年12月他有沒有到資安院找何全德院長喬標案因為我搞我已經完全看不懂啦國家資通安全研究院我們大家都很支持啦資安很重要啊結果出這麼大的包事後cover\n\n08:49.631 --> 09:13.576\n事後包庇到我開記者會繼續說謊讓人不可思議啊後來資安院有同仁跟我檢舉啊為什麼這個案子到現在還沒有聽權為什麼還沒有移送法辦為什麼還沒有解約上面有人罵誰敢動啊三天之內回覆可以嗎\n\n09:18.890 --> 09:39.588\n好來請部長最後一個問題部長這個案子剛取答的過程您都聽到了我相信會前昨天治安院的同仁很辛苦啦包括速發部的同仁整理資料到深夜啊相關的說明都給你了現在我只有具體的問題要不要依法解約要不要依法停權要不要移送法辦\n\n09:41.144 --> 09:59.210\n是這件事情是由審計部他在例行的調查中發現的那這件事情我們抒發部我們是認為說這個事情要不要依法解約這個法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦真的過去有該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嗎閉著眼睛混了多久啦第二個要不要依法停權\n\n10:02.691 --> 10:26.113\n要不要依法停權該寄過就寄過該懲處就懲處這個一切就是依法廠商要不要依法停權這個由治安院去處理由治安院處理嘛對因為這是第三個要不要移送法辦這個就是法律上就是如果有那個應該移送法辦就是要移送法辦應該啦我現在直接跟部長報告這絕對要移送法辦啦驗收不實啊\n\n10:27.174 --> 10:45.952\n驗收不死剛剛詢答的過程你應該聽得很清楚啦我希望喔依法辦理不要因為大同一戶新潮流的大佬洪祈昌前任的院長何全德就軟趴趴被人家摸頭包庇成這個樣子這件事情責任一定要追究到底謝謝謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.424,"end":23.504,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請數位部部長國家資通安全院院長請部長及院長國家安全院委員長部長好 院長好 時間的關係不宜問候"},{"start":25.917,"end":39.999,"text":"資安及國安賴清德總統強調的非常清楚也因為如此2025年行政院國家自動安全匯報跨國網路攻防的演練這個時候為了要做這件事情速發部補助了"},{"start":41.261,"end":66.784,"text":"國家自動安全研究院取得了一個OT醫療工房演練場域建置的標案這件事情我公開舉行過記者會國家自動安全院也有發聲明回應不過因為國家自動安全研究院的聲明老實說我完全看不懂所以今天必須要藉由質詢的方式來釐清幾個重要的爭點"},{"start":68.549,"end":83.978,"text":"這個標案有罪有利標交給大同醫護得標交給大同醫護得標裡面我看到的情況是違法的履約違法的驗收涉及到刑事犯罪行為了但是"},{"start":84.818,"end":97.78,"text":"我們具體的來看因為我那天在記者會上面公開請教的問題我從資安院的回應完全看不到任何答案我們就一樣一樣具體來第一個"},{"start":99.233,"end":118.382,"text":"這個案子在去年12月25號履約期限屆滿前辦理採購的單位說廠商所交來的東西跟標案的規格相符合那因此陳鮑當時的院長說要辦理驗收我們來看一下"},{"start":120.117,"end":146.048,"text":"那個時候簽准大同醫護辦理驗收他提出的設備有按照標案的規格提出的設備是新品嗎 是嗎是不是新品跟委員報告 那是舊品第一個它是舊品 那我的問題來了就沒有驗收那你們當初為什麼會上這個簽程說是新品辦理採購的單位看不出來它是舊品嗎因為"},{"start":147.75,"end":170.581,"text":"請購的單位要先上千層說沒有問題了交給院長 院長才批辱你就按照你的指示來交給辦理第一個 他交的是新品嗎你說不是 是舊品嗎對 是舊品好 第一次復驗的時候12月幾號你知不知道第一次驗的時候第一次驗的時候你說是27號嘛27號就發現是舊品對不對"},{"start":174.884,"end":192.549,"text":"來把你的資料看快一點時間的關係後面還有很多問題27號就發現東西是舊的對不對12月30號30號是第二次了啦第一次復驗對啦那個復驗所以是second time對first time是不是27號對27號是不是發現東西是舊的對好30號東西拿來的時候是新的還是舊的"},{"start":199.925,"end":225.789,"text":"舊的 還是舊的嘛那我現在就搞不懂啦這個大同醫護膽大包天啦27號告訴你是舊的30號繼續拿舊的來他把治安院當盤子嗎30號繼續拿舊的來結果出具假的新品證明書出具假的新品證明書 這個新品證明書是真的嗎是真的還假的"},{"start":227.458,"end":234.392,"text":"現在我貼在PPT上的新品證明書你的檔案裡面應該有啊懲罰人員告訴你這個新品證明書是真的還假的"},{"start":236.343,"end":259.924,"text":"他有附新品證明書但是設備不是新品所以這個新品證明書是假的廠商出一個新品證明書告訴你是新的東西是舊的我看整個履約的過程我看的是瞠目結舌27號告訴你這個東西是舊的30號辦復驗還是舊的但是拿一個新品證明書來想要謀混過關"},{"start":262.026,"end":284.245,"text":"這膽大包天啊第二件事情採購標案上面規格很清楚網通設備不可以用中國製的他所教的網通設備是不是用中國製的 是還是不是他是美國品牌是不是中國製的美國品牌中國製是中國製的符合標案規格嗎"},{"start":286.258,"end":308.856,"text":"在這一項裡面有寫不得為中國對 所以符合標案規格嗎不符合不符合嘛 不符合你們為什麼後來還是給他驗收通過因為他在這個寫在文件裡面那我們驗收同仁沒有注意到用沒有注意到就可以用混的喔是閉著眼睛在驗收嗎來來看一下進口報單"},{"start":310.296,"end":335.153,"text":"上面進口國寫CN CN就是China我們台灣鬧大笑話我們的速發部拿納稅的錢給國家資通安全研究院說要辦資安檢驗不可以用中國網通設備結果那個廠商膽大包天白紙黑字跟你說這個東西是China來的結果你們閉著眼睛辦驗收"},{"start":337.643,"end":358.339,"text":"閉著眼睛辦驗收耶然後現在說同仁沒有注意到對不起啊 院長我講話比較直接啊 要騙鬼啊要騙鬼啊現在要用疏失 沒有注意到來搪塞喔要騙鬼啊你相信嗎 院長 你相信嗎你相信嗎"},{"start":360.738,"end":388.045,"text":"這一點 審計部有在10月初來不用去扯到審計部啦現在你們部裡面自己當初怎麼驗的這已經是百名的驗收不實啊貪污自罪條例的重罪了啦驗收不實是貪污自罪條例的重罪啊你回去請教你們的法務同仁啊我講的絕對不會錯啊結果 好這些東西中國製的網通設備型號一片再變"},{"start":389.413,"end":415.695,"text":"結果呢不是由那個設備廠商出保固書因為出不出來嘛大同醫護自己出保固書你們閉著眼睛給他驗收過關然後我講的這兩件事情拿舊的充當新的用中國的網通設備違法違約你們還驗收合格也是對的結果我看不懂啦大同醫護跟紅旗艙"},{"start":417.803,"end":442.474,"text":"說我不實指控他說我們都是新的沒有使用中國製的產品來請教院長洪祈昌講的是實話還是謊話是我不實指控還是什麼還是他不實回應從我們剛詢答的過程當中到底誰說謊是我說謊還是洪祈昌說謊請說明"},{"start":447.45,"end":470.585,"text":"所以他不是新品所以我們沒有驗收那時候延宕驗收到今年3月才驗收你不要避重就輕問A答B啦他說沒有使用中國製產品這句話是真的還是假的是真的還是假的那是美國品牌中國製對啊他不是說沒有使用中國產製品這不就是在說謊嗎"},{"start":472.31,"end":500.632,"text":"最後的問題我搞不懂了出了這麼大條的包結果資安院從頭包庇到尾主席正巧我問最後一個問題去年年底洪祈昌有沒有跑到資安院找當時你前任的院長何全德敲這個標案 有還是沒有這個我不知道回去了解清楚可以嗎可以嗎我回去了解一下你回去問同仁嘛三天之內書面回覆可以嗎"},{"start":502.332,"end":528.186,"text":"可以嗎 你回去問一下就知道了嘛國家資通安全研究院進出門 進管是應該很嚴格啊去年12月他有沒有到資安院找何全德院長喬標案因為我搞 我已經完全看不懂啦國家資通安全研究院我們大家都很支持啦資安很重要啊結果出這麼大的包事後cover"},{"start":529.631,"end":553.576,"text":"事後包庇到我開記者會繼續說謊讓人不可思議啊後來資安院有同仁跟我檢舉啊為什麼這個案子到現在還沒有聽權為什麼還沒有移送法辦為什麼還沒有解約上面有人罵誰敢動啊三天之內回覆可以嗎"},{"start":558.89,"end":579.588,"text":"好來請部長最後一個問題部長這個案子剛取答的過程您都聽到了我相信會前昨天治安院的同仁很辛苦啦包括速發部的同仁整理資料到深夜啊相關的說明都給你了現在我只有具體的問題要不要依法解約要不要依法停權要不要移送法辦"},{"start":581.144,"end":599.21,"text":"是這件事情是由審計部他在例行的調查中發現的那這件事情我們抒發部我們是認為說這個事情要不要依法解約這個法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦真的過去有該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嗎閉著眼睛混了多久啦第二個要不要依法停權"},{"start":602.691,"end":626.113,"text":"要不要依法停權該寄過就寄過 該懲處就懲處這個一切就是依法廠商要不要依法停權這個由治安院去處理由治安院處理嘛對 因為這是第三個 要不要移送法辦這個就是法律上就是如果有那個應該移送法辦就是要移送法辦應該啦 我現在直接跟部長報告這絕對要移送法辦啦 驗收不實啊"},{"start":627.174,"end":645.952,"text":"驗收不死 剛剛詢答的過程你應該聽得很清楚啦我希望喔 依法辦理不要因為大同一戶新潮流的大佬洪祈昌前任的院長何全德就軟趴趴被人家摸頭包庇成這個樣子這件事情責任一定要追究到底謝謝謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時33分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請數位部部長、國家資通安全院院長。"],["主席：好，請部長及國家資通安全院院長。"],["林部長宜敬：委員早安。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好、院長好，時間的關係，不一一問候。「資安即國安」賴清德總統強調得非常清楚，也因為如此，2025年行政院國家資通安全會報跨國網路攻防演練，這時候為了要做這件事情，數發部補助國家資通安全研究院取得「醫療攻防演練OT場域建置」的標案，這件事情我公開舉行過記者會，國家資通安全院也有發聲明回應，不過因為國家資通安全研究院的聲明，老實說我完全看不懂，所以今天必須要藉由質詢的方式來釐清幾個重要的爭點。這個標案由最有利標交給大同醫護得標，交給大同醫護得標裡面，我看到的情況是違法的履約、違法的驗收，涉及到刑事犯罪行為。但是我們具體來看，因為我那天在記者會上面公開請教的問題，我從資安院的回應完全看不到任何答案，我們就一樣一樣具體來。第一個，這個案子在去年12月25號，履約期限屆滿前，辦理採購的單位說，廠商所交來的東西跟標案的規格相符合，因此陳報當時的院長說要辦理驗收。我們來看一下，那個時候簽准大同醫護辦理驗收，他提出的設備有按照標案規格，提出的設備是新品嗎？是嗎？是不是新品？"],["林院長盈達：跟委員報告，它是舊品……"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，它是舊品，那我的問題來了……"],["林院長盈達：我們就沒有驗收。"],["黃委員國昌：那你們當初為什麼會上這個簽呈說是新品？辦理採購的單位看不出來它是舊品嗎？因為請購的單位要先上簽呈說，沒有問題了！交給院長，院長才批如擬，就按照你的指示來加以辦理。第一個，他交的是新品嗎？你說不是，是舊品嘛！"],["林院長盈達：對，是舊品。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第一次複驗的時候是12月幾號，你知不知道？第一次驗的時候，你說是27號嘛！27號就發現是舊品對不對？把你的資料看快一點，時間的關係，後面還有很多問題。27號就發現東西是舊的，對不對？"],["林院長盈達：12月30號。"],["黃委員國昌：30號是第二次了啦！"],["林院長盈達：第一次複驗……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦，那個複驗，所以是second time。"],["林院長盈達：對。"],["黃委員國昌：first time是不是27號？"],["林院長盈達：對。"],["黃委員國昌：27號是不是發現東西是舊的？"],["林院長盈達：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，30號東西拿來的時候是新的還是舊的？"],["林院長盈達：舊的。"],["黃委員國昌：還是舊的嘛！那我現在就搞不懂啦！這個大同醫護膽大包天，27號告訴你是舊的，30號繼續拿舊的來，他把資安院當盤子嗎？30號繼續拿舊的來，結果出具假的新品證明書，這個新品證明書是真的嗎？是真的還假的？現在我貼在PPT上的新品證明書，你的檔案裡面應該有，承辦人員告訴你這個新品證明書是真的還假的？"],["林院長盈達：他有附新品證明書。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["林院長盈達：但是設備不是新品。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個新品證明書是假的嘛！廠商出一個新品證明書告訴你是新的，東西卻是舊的！我看整個履約的過程，我看得瞠目結舌，27號告訴你這個東西是舊的，30號辦複驗還是舊的，但是拿一個新品證明書來想要蒙混過關，膽大包天啊！","第二件事情，採購標案上面規格很清楚，網通設備不可以用中國製的，他所交的網通設備是不是用中國製的？是還是不是？"],["林院長盈達：它是美國品牌……"],["黃委員國昌：是不是中國製的？"],["林院長盈達：美國品牌，中國製。"],["黃委員國昌：是中國製的，符合標案規格嗎？"],["林院長盈達：在這一項裡面有寫不得為中國製。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以符合標案規格嗎？"],["林院長盈達：不符合。"],["黃委員國昌：不符合你們為什麼後來還是給他驗收通過？"],["林院長盈達：因為他寫在文件裡面，我們驗收同仁沒有注意到。"],["黃委員國昌：用沒有注意到就可以用混的喔？是閉著眼睛在驗收嗎？來來來，看一下進口報單，上面進口國寫CN，CN就是China嘛！我們臺灣鬧大笑話啦！我們的數發部拿納稅人的錢給國家資通安全研究院，說要辦資安檢驗不可以用中國網通設備，結果那個廠商膽大包天，白紙黑字跟你說這個東西是China來的，結果你們閉著眼睛辦驗收！然後現在說同仁沒有注意到，對不起，院長，我講話比較直接，要騙鬼啊！現在要用疏失，沒有注意到來搪塞，要騙鬼喔？你相信嗎？院長，你相信嗎？"],["林院長盈達：這一點，審計部有在10月初來函……"],["黃委員國昌：不用去扯到審計部啦！現在你們部裡面自己當初怎麼驗的，這已經是擺明了驗收不實，貪污治罪條例的重罪了啦！驗收不實是貪污治罪條例的重罪，你回去請教你們的法務同仁，我講的絕對不會錯。這些東西，中國製的網通設備型號一變再變，結果不是由設備廠商出保固書，因為出不出來，大同醫護自己出保固書，你們閉著眼睛給他驗收過關，然後我講的這兩件事情，拿舊的充當新的，用中國的網通設備違法、違約，你們還驗收合格，也是對的，結果我看不懂，大同醫護哥洪奇昌說我不實指控，他說：我們都是新的，沒有使用中國製的產品。請教院長，洪奇昌講的是實話還是謊話？是我不實指控還是他不實回應？從我們剛剛詢答的過程當中，到底誰說謊？是我說謊還是洪奇昌說謊？請說明。"],["林院長盈達：它不是新品，所以我們沒有驗收，那時候延宕驗收，到今年3月才驗收。"],["黃委員國昌：你不要避重就輕問A答B啦！他說沒有使用中國製產品，這句話是真的還是假的？是真的還是假的？"],["林院長盈達：那是美國品牌中國製。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！他不是說沒有使用中國產製品，這不就是在說謊嗎？最後的問題，我搞不懂了，出了這麼大條的包，結果資安院從頭包庇到尾。主席站起來，我問最後一個問題，去年年底，洪奇昌有沒有跑到資安院找當時你前任的院長何全德喬這個標案？有還是沒有？"],["林院長盈達：這個我不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：回去了解清楚可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["林院長盈達：我回去了解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：你回去問同仁嘛！3天之內書面回復，可以嗎？你回去問一下就知道了，國家資通安全研究院進出門禁管制應該很嚴格啊！"],["林院長盈達：去年12月……"],["黃委員國昌：去年12月，他有沒有到資安院找何全德院長喬標案？因為我已經完全看不懂，國家資通安全研究院，我們大家都很支持阿！資安很重要啊！結果出這麼大的包，事後cover、事後包庇，到我開記者會還繼續說謊，讓人不可思議啊！後來資安院有同仁跟我檢舉，為什麼這個案子到現在還沒有停權？為什麼還沒有移送法辦？為什麼還沒有解約？上面有人嘛！誰敢動啊！3天之內回復可以嗎？"],["林院長盈達：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，請部長。最後一個問題，部長，這個案子剛剛詢答的過程，您都聽到了，我相信會前，昨天資安院的同仁很辛苦，包括數發部的同仁整理資料到深夜，相關的說明都給你了，現在我只有具體的問題，要不要依法解約？要不要依法停權？要不要移送法辦？"],["林部長宜敬：這件事情是由審計部在例行調查中發現的，這件事情數發部是認為這個事情……"],["黃委員國昌：要不要依法解約？"],["林部長宜敬：法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦。"],["黃委員國昌：真的過去有該怎麼辦就怎麼辦嗎？閉著眼睛混了多久啦？第二個……"],["林部長宜敬：法律上該怎麼辦就怎麼辦。如果承辦人員有疏失的話……"],["黃委員國昌：要不要依法停權？"],["林部長宜敬：該記過就記過，該懲處就懲處，這個一切就是依照規定辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：廠商要不要依法停權？"],["林部長宜敬：這個由資安院去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：由資安院處理嘛？"],["林部長宜敬：對，因為這是……資安院是法人……"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，第三個，要不要移送法辦？"],["林部長宜敬：法律上如果應該移送法辦就是要移送法辦，就是該怎麼辦就怎麼辦。"],["黃委員國昌：應該要！我現在直接跟部長報告，這絕對要移送法辦，驗收不實！剛剛詢答的過程，你應該聽得很清楚。"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望依法辦理，不要因為大同醫護是新潮流的大老洪奇昌，前任的院長何全德就軟趴趴，被人家摸頭包庇成這個樣子，這件事情責任一定要追究到底，謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員發言。","再次說明，相關議事的處理，每位委員說完之後，我們會再給予1分鐘讓委員做收尾，會響鈴3次，再過30秒，也會再響鈴3次。都尊重各位委員的發言內容，不分黨派都是一樣，大聯盟的裁判好球帶都是一樣的。","現在請洪孟楷召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":524,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-5","speakers":["李昆澤","沈伯洋","蘇巧慧","林楚茵","黃國昌","洪孟楷","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","林俊憲","許智傑","陳雪生","廖先翔","邱若華","何欣純","王鴻薇","黃健豪","游顥","林國成"],"page_start":461,"meetingDate":["2025-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1149201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員王美惠等20人、(三)委員李坤城等18人、(四)委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等16人、(五)委員羅美玲等19人、(六)委員黃捷等21人、(七)委員邱鎮軍\n等21人、(八)委員吳沛憶等16人、(九)委員林楚茵等17人、(十)委員沈伯洋等18人、(十一)委員\n蔡易餘等17人、(十二)委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「電信管理法第七十二條條文修正草案」案及\n(十三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「電信管理法增訂第七十二條之二條文草案」案；二、審查(一)行\n政院函請審議、 ( 二 ) 委員王美惠等 19 人、 ( 三 ) 委員李坤城等 17 人、 ( 四 ) 委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人、(五)委員黃捷等22人、(六)委員吳沛憶等16人、(七)委員林楚茵等17人、\n(八)委員沈伯洋等18人、(九)委員蔡易餘等16人及(十)委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「氣象法第二\n十一條之一條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員王美惠等20人、(三)委\n員李坤城等18人、(四)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人、(五)委員羅美玲等19人、(六)\n委員黃捷等22 人、( 七) 委員邱鎮軍等23 人、( 八) 委員吳沛憶等16 人、( 九) 委員林楚茵等17 人、\n(十)委員沈伯洋等19人、(十一)委員蔡易餘等16人及(十二)委員郭昱晴等16人分別擬具「商港法\n第十五條及第六十五條之四條文修正草案」案；四、審查(一)行政院函請審議、(二)委員蔡其昌\n等 22 人 、 ( 三 ) 委 員 王 美 惠 等 21 人 、 ( 四 ) 委 員 李 坤 城 等 18 人 、 ( 五 ) 委 員 伍 麗 華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人、(六)委員黃捷等16人、(七)委員徐富癸等16人、(八)委員吳沛憶等16人、\n(九)委員林楚茵等17人、(十)委員沈伯洋等19人、(十一)委員蔡易餘等17人、(十二)委員郭昱晴\n等16人分別擬具「船舶法部分條文修正草案」案及(十三)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「船舶法第八條\n及第八十九條條文修正草案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1149201_00006"}}}