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09:35:16","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2025-11-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n邀請環境部部長、經濟部、內政部、農業部、交通部、行政院公共工程委員會就「非法棄置到城市採礦：檢討環境部環境管理署執法痛點與城市採礦推動策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n（下午2時起。若上午議程尚未結束，待結束後接續召開）\n一、繼續審查\n(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員羅明才等20人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員林倩綺等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二條、第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【二、(二)及(三)案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查】【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-11-05","start_time":"2025-11-05T09:25:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-11-05T09:35:16+08:00","duration":593,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-8"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"165014","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/165014","tool":"pyannote","id":"165014-pyannote"},"job_id":"7MoHoppXSo8hE52f","queued_at":"2025-11-05 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95.602, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 95.602, \"end\": 96.003, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 96.003, \"end\": 96.123, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 96.123, \"end\": 96.403, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 96.403, \"end\": 96.683, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 96.683, \"end\": 96.823, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 96.823, \"end\": 97.003, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 97.003, \"end\": 97.143, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"形\", \"start\": 97.143, \"end\": 97.363, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 97.363, \"end\": 97.864, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 97.864, \"end\": 98.204, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"暗\", \"start\": 98.204, \"end\": 98.604, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"恰\", \"start\": 98.604, \"end\": 98.764, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"新\", 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{\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 589.799, \"end\": 589.819, \"score\": 0.002}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,913 --> 00:00:07,574\n謝謝主席麻煩彭部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,828 --> 00:00:40,996\n陳委員好部長早部長前天那個租賃的意調出爐了記者會上中央政府認為破口不是在邊境是沒有落實徵阻但如果把他說他們繼續這樣說如果把破口歸於邊境那應該是全台灣要爆發就是說而不是單一案例場我不是非常認同這個說法部長我知道您沒有負責這個認定但我要強調出於徵阻只是防止那個感染的擴大而已\n\n3\n00:00:41,976 --> 00:01:05,096\n邊境仍然還是可能這個破口來源那記者會上的事證也可以證明這個感染源是境外病毒的株種它不會無端從台灣內部生出來難道除以本身就有病毒嗎所以我認為邊境的可能性最高我想知道你的想法其實有可能這個\n\n4\n00:01:06,637 --> 00:01:21,214\n病毒一直從邊境進來不管是海運或是從機場但是因為守法絕大多數的豬農也是守法所以他們把它徵阻掉了所以我想知道您對這件事破口點的看法如何\n\n5\n00:01:21,814 --> 00:01:40,105\n因為我雖然是應變中心可是他們在決定疫調的時候我都不能參加你的想法呢就我們環境部來督導這個廚餘的這個爭主來說的話的確有一些暗場但是不是多多數是好的有些的確是便宜形式像這個暗場恰新的暗場的確是便宜形式\n\n6\n00:01:40,305 --> 00:02:05,735\n我的意思是說如果認為破口是來自這個廚餘那不表示廚餘裡面就有病毒嗎那台灣是非疫區啊又不是台灣的病毒株種所以它一定是外來的啊它外來但是只是說透過一個徵主處理管理也許管理得相當的好所以就侷限在那個地方其他的地方沒有被處理到所以這個我覺得那個指揮中心這個說法不是正確的他認為破口是在徵主\n\n7\n00:02:06,588 --> 00:02:21,162\n珍珠的確這次這個案例的確出了一些問題但是委員我不是這個疫調的專家啦這個要請這個疫調的專家來處理沒有你用commonsense就可以啦沒有沒有基本上老包委員病毒如果在台灣的廚藝裡還得了\n\n8\n00:02:22,723 --> 00:02:43,162\n以我們來說如果說它這個深處一個小時90度就不會有這樣的問題我想你也不好意思講清楚部長上週六這個環管署林佐祥副署長提到中央協調所的專家會議它長期除以去化要以資源循環化為導向但這個會議記錄我一直跟環境部索取可是一直都一直沒收到請問部長可以給我們嗎\n\n9\n00:02:44,265 --> 00:02:58,256\n我們每天都有回憶這個是沒有問題的好那這個資料我們一直都還沒有收到好那就麻煩環境部這邊就盡快給辦公室謝謝那目前地方政府在設施量能上這個技術選擇上都是仰賴焚化\n\n10\n00:02:59,737 --> 00:03:10,520\n請問部長對於地方在這個廚餘生殖能源化的努力中央未來要提供多少資源因為事實上從2000年開始大家就說這個規劃用資源循環化為導向但我們看到這次應變措施還有70%是焚化焚化來處理這個廚餘的去化\n\n11\n00:03:18,502 --> 00:03:24,807\n也就是代表說中央跟地方政府從末端來處理一直到這個我們所謂的資源這個循環化還有很大的落差跟進步空間請問部長您有想過要扭轉這樣的一個趨勢嗎有的報告委員因為我們其實一直在算說我們現在每天落差大概全台灣加起來大概是500噸有些縣市沒有問題我舉例像屏東一天40萬噸它內部的處理是沒有問題的但是其他縣市都送到屏東去這個廚餘去餵豬\n\n12\n00:03:47,665 --> 00:04:12,625\n那基本上如果那個斷掉的話被各縣市處理各縣市的話其他縣市的確量能是不夠只能靠焚燒那我們現在的確是每個縣市去估算說你想要做什麼我們未來希望做什麼在做媒合當中那我們也正在爭取一些經費不過也跟委員報告因為現在的這個所謂的廚藥跟垃圾的處理我們希望透過促餐的方式快速的來解決讓政府的負擔不會那麼的重\n\n13\n00:04:14,466 --> 00:04:37,461\n部長這個禮拜一開始台中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化不再掩埋但環保團體有指出一廚餘裡面有氯有氯氣那加上澱粉燃燒後容易產生這個代澳腥但環管署林副署長說他公開說焚化爐都有相關的污染防治設備這個檢測請民眾放心廚餘的焚化不會造成代澳腥的污染真的是這樣嗎部長\n\n14\n00:04:39,022 --> 00:04:55,075\n第一個是我已經請我同仁說這個月未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次每個焚化爐都要加驗一次因為驗一次還蠻貴的而且還蠻難處理的因為這個環管署的fine代表環境部是不是代表環境部為這個焚化廚藝背書呢\n\n15\n00:04:55,746 --> 00:05:23,954\n沒有沒有委員這個是屬於這種應急的時候這個在疫情的期間沒有辦法解決那我為什麼這樣說我是有道理請部長看一下台南市環保局網站的這個說法這個是台南市環保局的網站他在常見問題那個網頁寫著廚餘中的鹽分偏高可能是戴奧鑫的潛在發生源因為戴奧鑫裡面我們知道有氧有崩緩然後裡面也有氯鹽分就是有氯那不利於這個焚化系統的戴奧鑫的控制那台南環保局是危言聳聽嗎\n\n16\n00:05:25,434 --> 00:05:39,412\n環境部說不會有帶澳新叫我們放心那同樣都是環境主管機關那都不同調欸我要請教部長對啊你如何解決這個問題呢不同調欸好謝謝委員那個其實齁如果焚化爐操作超過850度的話\n\n17\n00:05:40,814 --> 00:06:08,656\n其實那個綠可以被去掉就是比較沒有帶凹心的一個問題那這個過程當中是一個操作的一個問題那現在呢第一個是它這個操作很重要第二個是後面有一個帶凹心的這個回收等於是處理的防治的一個系統另外一個呢是我們去監測它有沒有這個超標所以這個部分我們這個院會來監測中央政府叫大家放心啦然後地方政府現在它這個還掛在這個網站上嘛那請問環境部多久要偵測一次那非公家的風化爐也可以偵測\n\n18\n00:06:09,818 --> 00:06:23,917\n當然當然我們每一個焚化爐全台灣26個焚化爐我們都會要求說這個月再多量一次所以你近期有要求這個地方環保局要針對大二星的這個數據我有特別請我們署長說因為廚餘現在都往焚化的方向走嘛對對對\n\n19\n00:06:25,438 --> 00:06:40,067\n其實委員就有兩個議題啦一個是現在我們的湯湯水水除以水太多如果把它瀝乾基本上它就跟一般垃圾一樣相對的壓力就沒那麼的大它如果處理好技術上可以處理好的話溫度到一定的位置它的代溫性就不會跑出來\n\n20\n00:06:42,448 --> 00:07:06,570\n你看左邊的圖10月29號環管署理直氣壯的發函要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引至少每50公分要附土30公分的規定去進行廚餘的掩埋這是左邊但是你比對右邊右邊是10月23號也就是韓文六天前的公告的指引這個指引資質未提覆蓋附土30公分的要求\n\n21\n00:07:07,170 --> 00:07:26,601\n那只說應該要復土那這段文字還懸掛在現在還懸掛在環管署的官網上部長請問這是負責了同仁自己擴大解釋嗎還是您讓他這麼做的因為質疑沒有這麼說但是你發函的部分就告訴他就跑出這個規範來了每50公分復土30公分這兩個資料現在都還在\n\n22\n00:07:28,622 --> 00:07:47,837\n包委員因為這個10層10層0.5覆土30公分這個其實是在好幾年以前早就訂了一個規範那環保單位完全都清楚這樣的一個規範那你近日因為發生觸昏就是那個你的指引公佈的指引沒有寫啊沒有這麼寫啊這個以前就有了你們要不要說明一下我自己10月29號公佈的\n\n23\n00:07:48,838 --> 00:08:01,532\n110年就早就公布了各個環保單位都清楚這個都清楚現在20月29號分然後6天前就去函你先沒有這麼執意沒有這個東西然後去函的時候有這個東西配置吧\n\n24\n00:08:03,274 --> 00:08:17,748\n如果掩埋這個一次沒問題但是這個早就110年早就變我們標準有成的我的觀念是說大家要同調同步啦那那個最後就是環境這個品質文教基金會謝董事長投訴他說文中批判整個台灣的廢棄物減量真的過於保守缺乏系統性的管理導致這個處於垃圾\n\n25\n00:08:20,229 --> 00:08:47,863\n嚴重他說韓國是用7年的緩衝期來分階段來做那日本的企業端他們利用循環利用率非常的高民眾也很習慣做這個處理的分類跟習慣的這個非常普及他歸功於這是法規跟制度面的東西所以相較之下台灣往往把這個循環經濟的概念放在口號他沒有制度性的改革跟法治經濟我覺得謝董事長也是愛之深責之切啦那面對他這樣的批判我想環境部你有沒有一個具體的這個\n\n26\n00:08:48,803 --> 00:09:10,562\n好謝謝委員說很容易啦做不容易啦那我們現在的確規劃的我會比他說的很多的國家的我們現在有一定有一個規劃的一個方案但是這個需要經費還有各方面的一個支持尤其是這個廚餘的處理喔很多縣市在過去為什麼推不起來都變成嫌惡設施啦所以大家會地方的抗爭很多這一次就是豬瘟以後就是廚餘大家知道了然後又開始應該就剛好是可以趕快啟動\n\n27\n00:09:15,305 --> 00:09:43,900\n因為如果這個觀念的改變我們的廚藥湯湯水水必須要變得有價的來處理那焚化也不是最好的方法嗎都要都要做所以我們現在的確是有一套的一個方案但是我們現在會配合農政單位一起來推動不是解決了一個問題焚化了但是又跑出另外一個問題出來這個我們都有全盤的規劃那等到整個完整之後包含未來的經費夠了之後我們會對外來宣布那我不會說很容易啦做很難啦我們其實已經有在做了\n\n28\n00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:49,819\n副部長的肩膀上的責任嗎是是我們已經有在推動了政府跟民進一起來好謝謝副部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6913\t7574\t謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長\n12828\t40996\t陳委員好 部長早部長前天那個租賃的意調出爐了記者會上中央政府認為破口不是在邊境是沒有落實徵阻但如果把他說他們繼續這樣說如果把破口歸於邊境那應該是全台灣要爆發就是說而不是單一案例場我不是非常認同這個說法部長我知道您沒有負責這個認定但我要強調出於徵阻只是防止那個感染的擴大而已\n41976\t65096\t邊境仍然還是可能這個破口來源那記者會上的事證也可以證明這個感染源是境外病毒的株種它不會無端從台灣內部生出來難道除以本身就有病毒嗎所以我認為邊境的可能性最高我想知道你的想法其實有可能這個\n66637\t81214\t病毒一直從邊境進來不管是海運或是從機場但是因為守法絕大多數的豬農也是守法所以他們把它徵阻掉了所以我想知道您對這件事破口點的看法如何\n81814\t100105\t因為我雖然是應變中心可是他們在決定疫調的時候我都不能參加你的想法呢就我們環境部來督導這個廚餘的這個爭主來說的話的確有一些暗場但是不是多 多數是好的有些的確是便宜形式像這個暗場恰新的暗場的確是便宜形式\n100305\t125735\t我的意思是說 如果認為破口是來自這個廚餘那不表示廚餘裡面就有病毒嗎那台灣是非疫區啊 又不是台灣的病毒株種所以它一定是外來的啊它外來 但是只是說透過一個徵主處理管理也許管理得相當的好所以就侷限在那個地方其他的地方沒有被處理到所以這個 我覺得那個指揮中心這個說法不是正確的他認為破口是在徵主\n126588\t141162\t珍珠的確這次這個案例的確出了一些問題但是委員我不是這個疫調的專家啦這個要請這個疫調的專家來處理沒有你用common sense就可以啦沒有沒有基本上老包委員病毒如果在台灣的廚藝裡還得了\n142723\t163162\t以我們來說如果說它這個深處一個小時90度就不會有這樣的問題我想你也不好意思講清楚部長上週六這個環管署林佐祥副署長提到中央協調所的專家會議它長期除以去化要以資源循環化為導向但這個會議記錄我一直跟環境部索取可是一直都一直沒收到請問部長可以給我們嗎\n164265\t178256\t我們每天都有回憶 這個是沒有問題的好 那這個資料我們一直都還沒有收到好 那就麻煩環境部這邊就盡快給辦公室 謝謝那目前地方政府在設施量能上這個技術選擇上都是仰賴焚化\n179737\t190520\t請問部長對於地方在這個廚餘生殖能源化的努力中央未來要提供多少資源因為事實上從2000年開始大家就說這個規劃用資源循環化為導向但我們看到這次應變措施還有70%是焚化焚化來處理這個廚餘的去化\n198502\t204807\t也就是代表說中央跟地方政府從末端來處理一直到這個我們所謂的資源這個循環化還有很大的落差跟進步空間請問部長您有想過要扭轉這樣的一個趨勢嗎有的 報告委員因為我們其實一直在算說我們現在每天落差大概全台灣加起來大概是500噸有些縣市沒有問題我舉例像屏東一天40萬噸它內部的處理是沒有問題的但是其他縣市都送到屏東去這個廚餘去餵豬\n227665\t252625\t那基本上如果那個斷掉的話被各縣市處理各縣市的話其他縣市的確量能是不夠只能靠焚燒那我們現在的確是每個縣市去估算說你想要做什麼我們未來希望做什麼在做媒合當中那我們也正在爭取一些經費不過也跟委員報告因為現在的這個所謂的廚藥跟垃圾的處理我們希望透過促餐的方式快速的來解決讓政府的負擔不會那麼的重\n254466\t277461\t部長這個禮拜一開始台中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化不再掩埋但環保團體有指出一廚餘裡面有氯有氯氣那加上澱粉燃燒後容易產生這個代澳腥但環管署林副署長說他公開說焚化爐都有相關的污染防治設備這個檢測請民眾放心廚餘的焚化不會造成代澳腥的污染真的是這樣嗎部長\n279022\t295075\t第一個是我已經請我同仁說這個月未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次每個焚化爐都要加驗一次因為驗一次還蠻貴的而且還蠻難處理的因為這個環管署的fine代表環境部是不是代表環境部為這個焚化廚藝背書呢\n295746\t323954\t沒有沒有委員這個是屬於這種應急的時候這個在疫情的期間沒有辦法解決那我為什麼這樣說我是有道理請部長看一下台南市環保局網站的這個說法這個是台南市環保局的網站他在常見問題那個網頁寫著廚餘中的鹽分偏高可能是戴奧鑫的潛在發生源因為戴奧鑫裡面我們知道有氧有崩緩然後裡面也有氯鹽分就是有氯那不利於這個焚化系統的戴奧鑫的控制那台南環保局是危言聳聽嗎\n325434\t339412\t環境部說不會有帶澳新 叫我們放心那同樣都是環境主管機關 那都不同調欸我要請教部長 對啊你如何解決這個問題呢 不同調欸好 謝謝委員 那個其實齁如果焚化爐操作超過850度的話\n340814\t368656\t其實那個綠可以被去掉就是比較沒有帶凹心的一個問題那這個過程當中是一個操作的一個問題那現在呢第一個是它這個操作很重要第二個是後面有一個帶凹心的這個回收等於是處理的防治的一個系統另外一個呢是我們去監測它有沒有這個超標所以這個部分我們這個院會來監測中央政府叫大家放心啦然後地方政府現在它這個還掛在這個網站上嘛那請問環境部多久要偵測一次那非公家的風化爐也可以偵測\n369818\t383917\t當然當然 我們每一個焚化爐全台灣26個焚化爐我們都會要求說這個月再多量一次所以你近期有要求這個地方環保局要針對大二星的這個數據我有特別請我們署長說因為廚餘現在都往焚化的方向走嘛對對對\n385438\t400067\t其實委員就有兩個議題啦一個是現在我們的湯湯水水除以水太多如果把它瀝乾基本上它就跟一般垃圾一樣相對的壓力就沒那麼的大它如果處理好技術上可以處理好的話溫度到一定的位置它的代溫性就不會跑出來\n402448\t426570\t你看左邊的圖10月29號環管署理直氣壯的發函要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引至少每50公分要附土30公分的規定去進行廚餘的掩埋這是左邊但是你比對右邊 右邊是10月23號也就是韓文六天前的公告的指引這個指引資質未提覆蓋附土30公分的要求\n427170\t446601\t那只說應該要復土那這段文字還懸掛在現在還懸掛在環管署的官網上部長請問這是負責了同仁自己擴大解釋嗎還是您讓他這麼做的因為質疑沒有這麼說但是你發函的部分就告訴他就跑出這個規範來了每50公分復土30公分這兩個資料現在都還在\n448622\t467837\t包委員因為這個10層10層0.5覆土30公分這個其實是在好幾年以前早就訂了一個規範那環保單位完全都清楚這樣的一個規範那你近日因為發生觸昏就是那個你的指引公佈的指引沒有寫啊沒有這麼寫啊這個以前就有了 你們要不要說明一下我自己10月29號公佈的\n468838\t481532\t110年就早就公布了 各個環保單位都清楚這個都清楚現在20月29號分 然後6天前就去函你先沒有這麼 執意沒有這個東西然後去函的時候有這個東西 配置吧\n483274\t497748\t如果掩埋 這個一次沒問題但是這個早就110年早就變我們標準有成的我的觀念是說大家要同調同步啦那那個最後就是環境這個品質文教基金會謝董事長投訴他說文中批判整個台灣的廢棄物減量真的過於保守缺乏系統性的管理導致這個處於垃圾\n500229\t527863\t嚴重他說韓國是用7年的緩衝期來分階段來做那日本的企業端他們利用循環利用率非常的高民眾也很習慣做這個處理的分類跟習慣的這個非常普及他歸功於這是法規跟制度面的東西所以相較之下台灣往往把這個循環經濟的概念放在口號他沒有制度性的改革跟法治經濟我覺得謝董事長也是愛之深責之切啦那面對他這樣的批判我想環境部你有沒有一個具體的這個\n528803\t550562\t好 謝謝委員 說很容易啦 做不容易啦那我們現在的確規劃的 我會比他說的很多的國家的 我們現在有一定有一個規劃的一個方案但是這個需要經費還有各方面的一個支持尤其是這個廚餘的處理喔 很多縣市在過去為什麼推不起來 都變成嫌惡設施啦所以大家會 地方的抗爭很多這一次就是豬瘟以後 就是廚餘大家知道了然後又開始 應該就剛好是可以趕快啟動\n555305\t583900\t因為如果這個觀念的改變我們的廚藥湯湯水水必須要變得有價的來處理那焚化也不是最好的方法嗎都要 都要做所以我們現在的確是有一套的一個方案但是我們現在會配合農政單位一起來推動不是解決了一個問題焚化了但是又跑出另外一個問題出來這個我們都有全盤的規劃那等到整個完整之後包含未來的經費夠了之後我們會對外來宣布那我不會說很容易啦 做很難啦我們其實已經有在做了\n584790\t589819\t副部長的肩膀上的責任嗎是是 我們已經有在推動了 政府跟民進一起來好 謝謝副部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長\n陳委員好 部長早部長前天那個租賃的意調出爐了記者會上中央政府認為破口不是在邊境是沒有落實徵阻但如果把他說他們繼續這樣說如果把破口歸於邊境那應該是全台灣要爆發就是說而不是單一案例場我不是非常認同這個說法部長我知道您沒有負責這個認定但我要強調出於徵阻只是防止那個感染的擴大而已\n邊境仍然還是可能這個破口來源那記者會上的事證也可以證明這個感染源是境外病毒的株種它不會無端從台灣內部生出來難道除以本身就有病毒嗎所以我認為邊境的可能性最高我想知道你的想法其實有可能這個\n病毒一直從邊境進來不管是海運或是從機場但是因為守法絕大多數的豬農也是守法所以他們把它徵阻掉了所以我想知道您對這件事破口點的看法如何\n因為我雖然是應變中心可是他們在決定疫調的時候我都不能參加你的想法呢就我們環境部來督導這個廚餘的這個爭主來說的話的確有一些暗場但是不是多 多數是好的有些的確是便宜形式像這個暗場恰新的暗場的確是便宜形式\n我的意思是說 如果認為破口是來自這個廚餘那不表示廚餘裡面就有病毒嗎那台灣是非疫區啊 又不是台灣的病毒株種所以它一定是外來的啊它外來 但是只是說透過一個徵主處理管理也許管理得相當的好所以就侷限在那個地方其他的地方沒有被處理到所以這個 我覺得那個指揮中心這個說法不是正確的他認為破口是在徵主\n珍珠的確這次這個案例的確出了一些問題但是委員我不是這個疫調的專家啦這個要請這個疫調的專家來處理沒有你用common sense就可以啦沒有沒有基本上老包委員病毒如果在台灣的廚藝裡還得了\n以我們來說如果說它這個深處一個小時90度就不會有這樣的問題我想你也不好意思講清楚部長上週六這個環管署林佐祥副署長提到中央協調所的專家會議它長期除以去化要以資源循環化為導向但這個會議記錄我一直跟環境部索取可是一直都一直沒收到請問部長可以給我們嗎\n我們每天都有回憶 這個是沒有問題的好 那這個資料我們一直都還沒有收到好 那就麻煩環境部這邊就盡快給辦公室 謝謝那目前地方政府在設施量能上這個技術選擇上都是仰賴焚化\n請問部長對於地方在這個廚餘生殖能源化的努力中央未來要提供多少資源因為事實上從2000年開始大家就說這個規劃用資源循環化為導向但我們看到這次應變措施還有70%是焚化焚化來處理這個廚餘的去化\n也就是代表說中央跟地方政府從末端來處理一直到這個我們所謂的資源這個循環化還有很大的落差跟進步空間請問部長您有想過要扭轉這樣的一個趨勢嗎有的 報告委員因為我們其實一直在算說我們現在每天落差大概全台灣加起來大概是500噸有些縣市沒有問題我舉例像屏東一天40萬噸它內部的處理是沒有問題的但是其他縣市都送到屏東去這個廚餘去餵豬\n那基本上如果那個斷掉的話被各縣市處理各縣市的話其他縣市的確量能是不夠只能靠焚燒那我們現在的確是每個縣市去估算說你想要做什麼我們未來希望做什麼在做媒合當中那我們也正在爭取一些經費不過也跟委員報告因為現在的這個所謂的廚藥跟垃圾的處理我們希望透過促餐的方式快速的來解決讓政府的負擔不會那麼的重\n部長這個禮拜一開始台中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化不再掩埋但環保團體有指出一廚餘裡面有氯有氯氣那加上澱粉燃燒後容易產生這個代澳腥但環管署林副署長說他公開說焚化爐都有相關的污染防治設備這個檢測請民眾放心廚餘的焚化不會造成代澳腥的污染真的是這樣嗎部長\n第一個是我已經請我同仁說這個月未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次每個焚化爐都要加驗一次因為驗一次還蠻貴的而且還蠻難處理的因為這個環管署的fine代表環境部是不是代表環境部為這個焚化廚藝背書呢\n沒有沒有委員這個是屬於這種應急的時候這個在疫情的期間沒有辦法解決那我為什麼這樣說我是有道理請部長看一下台南市環保局網站的這個說法這個是台南市環保局的網站他在常見問題那個網頁寫著廚餘中的鹽分偏高可能是戴奧鑫的潛在發生源因為戴奧鑫裡面我們知道有氧有崩緩然後裡面也有氯鹽分就是有氯那不利於這個焚化系統的戴奧鑫的控制那台南環保局是危言聳聽嗎\n環境部說不會有帶澳新 叫我們放心那同樣都是環境主管機關 那都不同調欸我要請教部長 對啊你如何解決這個問題呢 不同調欸好 謝謝委員 那個其實齁如果焚化爐操作超過850度的話\n其實那個綠可以被去掉就是比較沒有帶凹心的一個問題那這個過程當中是一個操作的一個問題那現在呢第一個是它這個操作很重要第二個是後面有一個帶凹心的這個回收等於是處理的防治的一個系統另外一個呢是我們去監測它有沒有這個超標所以這個部分我們這個院會來監測中央政府叫大家放心啦然後地方政府現在它這個還掛在這個網站上嘛那請問環境部多久要偵測一次那非公家的風化爐也可以偵測\n當然當然 我們每一個焚化爐全台灣26個焚化爐我們都會要求說這個月再多量一次所以你近期有要求這個地方環保局要針對大二星的這個數據我有特別請我們署長說因為廚餘現在都往焚化的方向走嘛對對對\n其實委員就有兩個議題啦一個是現在我們的湯湯水水除以水太多如果把它瀝乾基本上它就跟一般垃圾一樣相對的壓力就沒那麼的大它如果處理好技術上可以處理好的話溫度到一定的位置它的代溫性就不會跑出來\n你看左邊的圖10月29號環管署理直氣壯的發函要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引至少每50公分要附土30公分的規定去進行廚餘的掩埋這是左邊但是你比對右邊 右邊是10月23號也就是韓文六天前的公告的指引這個指引資質未提覆蓋附土30公分的要求\n那只說應該要復土那這段文字還懸掛在現在還懸掛在環管署的官網上部長請問這是負責了同仁自己擴大解釋嗎還是您讓他這麼做的因為質疑沒有這麼說但是你發函的部分就告訴他就跑出這個規範來了每50公分復土30公分這兩個資料現在都還在\n包委員因為這個10層10層0.5覆土30公分這個其實是在好幾年以前早就訂了一個規範那環保單位完全都清楚這樣的一個規範那你近日因為發生觸昏就是那個你的指引公佈的指引沒有寫啊沒有這麼寫啊這個以前就有了 你們要不要說明一下我自己10月29號公佈的\n110年就早就公布了 各個環保單位都清楚這個都清楚現在20月29號分 然後6天前就去函你先沒有這麼 執意沒有這個東西然後去函的時候有這個東西 配置吧\n如果掩埋 這個一次沒問題但是這個早就110年早就變我們標準有成的我的觀念是說大家要同調同步啦那那個最後就是環境這個品質文教基金會謝董事長投訴他說文中批判整個台灣的廢棄物減量真的過於保守缺乏系統性的管理導致這個處於垃圾\n嚴重他說韓國是用7年的緩衝期來分階段來做那日本的企業端他們利用循環利用率非常的高民眾也很習慣做這個處理的分類跟習慣的這個非常普及他歸功於這是法規跟制度面的東西所以相較之下台灣往往把這個循環經濟的概念放在口號他沒有制度性的改革跟法治經濟我覺得謝董事長也是愛之深責之切啦那面對他這樣的批判我想環境部你有沒有一個具體的這個\n好 謝謝委員 說很容易啦 做不容易啦那我們現在的確規劃的 我會比他說的很多的國家的 我們現在有一定有一個規劃的一個方案但是這個需要經費還有各方面的一個支持尤其是這個廚餘的處理喔 很多縣市在過去為什麼推不起來 都變成嫌惡設施啦所以大家會 地方的抗爭很多這一次就是豬瘟以後 就是廚餘大家知道了然後又開始 應該就剛好是可以趕快啟動\n因為如果這個觀念的改變我們的廚藥湯湯水水必須要變得有價的來處理那焚化也不是最好的方法嗎都要 都要做所以我們現在的確是有一套的一個方案但是我們現在會配合農政單位一起來推動不是解決了一個問題焚化了但是又跑出另外一個問題出來這個我們都有全盤的規劃那等到整個完整之後包含未來的經費夠了之後我們會對外來宣布那我不會說很容易啦 做很難啦我們其實已經有在做了\n副部長的肩膀上的責任嗎是是 我們已經有在推動了 政府跟民進一起來好 謝謝副部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.913 --> 00:07.574\n謝謝主席麻煩彭部長\n\n00:12.828 --> 00:40.996\n陳委員好部長早部長前天那個租賃的意調出爐了記者會上中央政府認為破口不是在邊境是沒有落實徵阻但如果把他說他們繼續這樣說如果把破口歸於邊境那應該是全台灣要爆發就是說而不是單一案例場我不是非常認同這個說法部長我知道您沒有負責這個認定但我要強調出於徵阻只是防止那個感染的擴大而已\n\n00:41.976 --> 01:05.096\n邊境仍然還是可能這個破口來源那記者會上的事證也可以證明這個感染源是境外病毒的株種它不會無端從台灣內部生出來難道除以本身就有病毒嗎所以我認為邊境的可能性最高我想知道你的想法其實有可能這個\n\n01:06.637 --> 01:21.214\n病毒一直從邊境進來不管是海運或是從機場但是因為守法絕大多數的豬農也是守法所以他們把它徵阻掉了所以我想知道您對這件事破口點的看法如何\n\n01:21.814 --> 01:40.105\n因為我雖然是應變中心可是他們在決定疫調的時候我都不能參加你的想法呢就我們環境部來督導這個廚餘的這個爭主來說的話的確有一些暗場但是不是多多數是好的有些的確是便宜形式像這個暗場恰新的暗場的確是便宜形式\n\n01:40.305 --> 02:05.735\n我的意思是說如果認為破口是來自這個廚餘那不表示廚餘裡面就有病毒嗎那台灣是非疫區啊又不是台灣的病毒株種所以它一定是外來的啊它外來但是只是說透過一個徵主處理管理也許管理得相當的好所以就侷限在那個地方其他的地方沒有被處理到所以這個我覺得那個指揮中心這個說法不是正確的他認為破口是在徵主\n\n02:06.588 --> 02:21.162\n珍珠的確這次這個案例的確出了一些問題但是委員我不是這個疫調的專家啦這個要請這個疫調的專家來處理沒有你用commonsense就可以啦沒有沒有基本上老包委員病毒如果在台灣的廚藝裡還得了\n\n02:22.723 --> 02:43.162\n以我們來說如果說它這個深處一個小時90度就不會有這樣的問題我想你也不好意思講清楚部長上週六這個環管署林佐祥副署長提到中央協調所的專家會議它長期除以去化要以資源循環化為導向但這個會議記錄我一直跟環境部索取可是一直都一直沒收到請問部長可以給我們嗎\n\n02:44.265 --> 02:58.256\n我們每天都有回憶這個是沒有問題的好那這個資料我們一直都還沒有收到好那就麻煩環境部這邊就盡快給辦公室謝謝那目前地方政府在設施量能上這個技術選擇上都是仰賴焚化\n\n02:59.737 --> 03:10.520\n請問部長對於地方在這個廚餘生殖能源化的努力中央未來要提供多少資源因為事實上從2000年開始大家就說這個規劃用資源循環化為導向但我們看到這次應變措施還有70%是焚化焚化來處理這個廚餘的去化\n\n03:18.502 --> 03:24.807\n也就是代表說中央跟地方政府從末端來處理一直到這個我們所謂的資源這個循環化還有很大的落差跟進步空間請問部長您有想過要扭轉這樣的一個趨勢嗎有的報告委員因為我們其實一直在算說我們現在每天落差大概全台灣加起來大概是500噸有些縣市沒有問題我舉例像屏東一天40萬噸它內部的處理是沒有問題的但是其他縣市都送到屏東去這個廚餘去餵豬\n\n03:47.665 --> 04:12.625\n那基本上如果那個斷掉的話被各縣市處理各縣市的話其他縣市的確量能是不夠只能靠焚燒那我們現在的確是每個縣市去估算說你想要做什麼我們未來希望做什麼在做媒合當中那我們也正在爭取一些經費不過也跟委員報告因為現在的這個所謂的廚藥跟垃圾的處理我們希望透過促餐的方式快速的來解決讓政府的負擔不會那麼的重\n\n04:14.466 --> 04:37.461\n部長這個禮拜一開始台中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化不再掩埋但環保團體有指出一廚餘裡面有氯有氯氣那加上澱粉燃燒後容易產生這個代澳腥但環管署林副署長說他公開說焚化爐都有相關的污染防治設備這個檢測請民眾放心廚餘的焚化不會造成代澳腥的污染真的是這樣嗎部長\n\n04:39.022 --> 04:55.075\n第一個是我已經請我同仁說這個月未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次每個焚化爐都要加驗一次因為驗一次還蠻貴的而且還蠻難處理的因為這個環管署的fine代表環境部是不是代表環境部為這個焚化廚藝背書呢\n\n04:55.746 --> 05:23.954\n沒有沒有委員這個是屬於這種應急的時候這個在疫情的期間沒有辦法解決那我為什麼這樣說我是有道理請部長看一下台南市環保局網站的這個說法這個是台南市環保局的網站他在常見問題那個網頁寫著廚餘中的鹽分偏高可能是戴奧鑫的潛在發生源因為戴奧鑫裡面我們知道有氧有崩緩然後裡面也有氯鹽分就是有氯那不利於這個焚化系統的戴奧鑫的控制那台南環保局是危言聳聽嗎\n\n05:25.434 --> 05:39.412\n環境部說不會有帶澳新叫我們放心那同樣都是環境主管機關那都不同調欸我要請教部長對啊你如何解決這個問題呢不同調欸好謝謝委員那個其實齁如果焚化爐操作超過850度的話\n\n05:40.814 --> 06:08.656\n其實那個綠可以被去掉就是比較沒有帶凹心的一個問題那這個過程當中是一個操作的一個問題那現在呢第一個是它這個操作很重要第二個是後面有一個帶凹心的這個回收等於是處理的防治的一個系統另外一個呢是我們去監測它有沒有這個超標所以這個部分我們這個院會來監測中央政府叫大家放心啦然後地方政府現在它這個還掛在這個網站上嘛那請問環境部多久要偵測一次那非公家的風化爐也可以偵測\n\n06:09.818 --> 06:23.917\n當然當然我們每一個焚化爐全台灣26個焚化爐我們都會要求說這個月再多量一次所以你近期有要求這個地方環保局要針對大二星的這個數據我有特別請我們署長說因為廚餘現在都往焚化的方向走嘛對對對\n\n06:25.438 --> 06:40.067\n其實委員就有兩個議題啦一個是現在我們的湯湯水水除以水太多如果把它瀝乾基本上它就跟一般垃圾一樣相對的壓力就沒那麼的大它如果處理好技術上可以處理好的話溫度到一定的位置它的代溫性就不會跑出來\n\n06:42.448 --> 07:06.570\n你看左邊的圖10月29號環管署理直氣壯的發函要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引至少每50公分要附土30公分的規定去進行廚餘的掩埋這是左邊但是你比對右邊右邊是10月23號也就是韓文六天前的公告的指引這個指引資質未提覆蓋附土30公分的要求\n\n07:07.170 --> 07:26.601\n那只說應該要復土那這段文字還懸掛在現在還懸掛在環管署的官網上部長請問這是負責了同仁自己擴大解釋嗎還是您讓他這麼做的因為質疑沒有這麼說但是你發函的部分就告訴他就跑出這個規範來了每50公分復土30公分這兩個資料現在都還在\n\n07:28.622 --> 07:47.837\n包委員因為這個10層10層0.5覆土30公分這個其實是在好幾年以前早就訂了一個規範那環保單位完全都清楚這樣的一個規範那你近日因為發生觸昏就是那個你的指引公佈的指引沒有寫啊沒有這麼寫啊這個以前就有了你們要不要說明一下我自己10月29號公佈的\n\n07:48.838 --> 08:01.532\n110年就早就公布了各個環保單位都清楚這個都清楚現在20月29號分然後6天前就去函你先沒有這麼執意沒有這個東西然後去函的時候有這個東西配置吧\n\n08:03.274 --> 08:17.748\n如果掩埋這個一次沒問題但是這個早就110年早就變我們標準有成的我的觀念是說大家要同調同步啦那那個最後就是環境這個品質文教基金會謝董事長投訴他說文中批判整個台灣的廢棄物減量真的過於保守缺乏系統性的管理導致這個處於垃圾\n\n08:20.229 --> 08:47.863\n嚴重他說韓國是用7年的緩衝期來分階段來做那日本的企業端他們利用循環利用率非常的高民眾也很習慣做這個處理的分類跟習慣的這個非常普及他歸功於這是法規跟制度面的東西所以相較之下台灣往往把這個循環經濟的概念放在口號他沒有制度性的改革跟法治經濟我覺得謝董事長也是愛之深責之切啦那面對他這樣的批判我想環境部你有沒有一個具體的這個\n\n08:48.803 --> 09:10.562\n好謝謝委員說很容易啦做不容易啦那我們現在的確規劃的我會比他說的很多的國家的我們現在有一定有一個規劃的一個方案但是這個需要經費還有各方面的一個支持尤其是這個廚餘的處理喔很多縣市在過去為什麼推不起來都變成嫌惡設施啦所以大家會地方的抗爭很多這一次就是豬瘟以後就是廚餘大家知道了然後又開始應該就剛好是可以趕快啟動\n\n09:15.305 --> 09:43.900\n因為如果這個觀念的改變我們的廚藥湯湯水水必須要變得有價的來處理那焚化也不是最好的方法嗎都要都要做所以我們現在的確是有一套的一個方案但是我們現在會配合農政單位一起來推動不是解決了一個問題焚化了但是又跑出另外一個問題出來這個我們都有全盤的規劃那等到整個完整之後包含未來的經費夠了之後我們會對外來宣布那我不會說很容易啦做很難啦我們其實已經有在做了\n\n09:44.790 --> 09:49.819\n副部長的肩膀上的責任嗎是是我們已經有在推動了政府跟民進一起來好謝謝副部長謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.913,"end":7.574,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長"},{"start":12.828,"end":40.996,"text":"陳委員好 部長早部長前天那個租賃的意調出爐了記者會上中央政府認為破口不是在邊境是沒有落實徵阻但如果把他說他們繼續這樣說如果把破口歸於邊境那應該是全台灣要爆發就是說而不是單一案例場我不是非常認同這個說法部長我知道您沒有負責這個認定但我要強調出於徵阻只是防止那個感染的擴大而已"},{"start":41.976,"end":65.096,"text":"邊境仍然還是可能這個破口來源那記者會上的事證也可以證明這個感染源是境外病毒的株種它不會無端從台灣內部生出來難道除以本身就有病毒嗎所以我認為邊境的可能性最高我想知道你的想法其實有可能這個"},{"start":66.637,"end":81.214,"text":"病毒一直從邊境進來不管是海運或是從機場但是因為守法絕大多數的豬農也是守法所以他們把它徵阻掉了所以我想知道您對這件事破口點的看法如何"},{"start":81.814,"end":100.105,"text":"因為我雖然是應變中心可是他們在決定疫調的時候我都不能參加你的想法呢就我們環境部來督導這個廚餘的這個爭主來說的話的確有一些暗場但是不是多 多數是好的有些的確是便宜形式像這個暗場恰新的暗場的確是便宜形式"},{"start":100.305,"end":125.735,"text":"我的意思是說 如果認為破口是來自這個廚餘那不表示廚餘裡面就有病毒嗎那台灣是非疫區啊 又不是台灣的病毒株種所以它一定是外來的啊它外來 但是只是說透過一個徵主處理管理也許管理得相當的好所以就侷限在那個地方其他的地方沒有被處理到所以這個 我覺得那個指揮中心這個說法不是正確的他認為破口是在徵主"},{"start":126.588,"end":141.162,"text":"珍珠的確這次這個案例的確出了一些問題但是委員我不是這個疫調的專家啦這個要請這個疫調的專家來處理沒有你用common sense就可以啦沒有沒有基本上老包委員病毒如果在台灣的廚藝裡還得了"},{"start":142.723,"end":163.162,"text":"以我們來說如果說它這個深處一個小時90度就不會有這樣的問題我想你也不好意思講清楚部長上週六這個環管署林佐祥副署長提到中央協調所的專家會議它長期除以去化要以資源循環化為導向但這個會議記錄我一直跟環境部索取可是一直都一直沒收到請問部長可以給我們嗎"},{"start":164.265,"end":178.256,"text":"我們每天都有回憶 這個是沒有問題的好 那這個資料我們一直都還沒有收到好 那就麻煩環境部這邊就盡快給辦公室 謝謝那目前地方政府在設施量能上這個技術選擇上都是仰賴焚化"},{"start":179.737,"end":190.52,"text":"請問部長對於地方在這個廚餘生殖能源化的努力中央未來要提供多少資源因為事實上從2000年開始大家就說這個規劃用資源循環化為導向但我們看到這次應變措施還有70%是焚化焚化來處理這個廚餘的去化"},{"start":198.502,"end":204.807,"text":"也就是代表說中央跟地方政府從末端來處理一直到這個我們所謂的資源這個循環化還有很大的落差跟進步空間請問部長您有想過要扭轉這樣的一個趨勢嗎有的 報告委員因為我們其實一直在算說我們現在每天落差大概全台灣加起來大概是500噸有些縣市沒有問題我舉例像屏東一天40萬噸它內部的處理是沒有問題的但是其他縣市都送到屏東去這個廚餘去餵豬"},{"start":227.665,"end":252.625,"text":"那基本上如果那個斷掉的話被各縣市處理各縣市的話其他縣市的確量能是不夠只能靠焚燒那我們現在的確是每個縣市去估算說你想要做什麼我們未來希望做什麼在做媒合當中那我們也正在爭取一些經費不過也跟委員報告因為現在的這個所謂的廚藥跟垃圾的處理我們希望透過促餐的方式快速的來解決讓政府的負擔不會那麼的重"},{"start":254.466,"end":277.461,"text":"部長這個禮拜一開始台中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化不再掩埋但環保團體有指出一廚餘裡面有氯有氯氣那加上澱粉燃燒後容易產生這個代澳腥但環管署林副署長說他公開說焚化爐都有相關的污染防治設備這個檢測請民眾放心廚餘的焚化不會造成代澳腥的污染真的是這樣嗎部長"},{"start":279.022,"end":295.075,"text":"第一個是我已經請我同仁說這個月未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次每個焚化爐都要加驗一次因為驗一次還蠻貴的而且還蠻難處理的因為這個環管署的fine代表環境部是不是代表環境部為這個焚化廚藝背書呢"},{"start":295.746,"end":323.954,"text":"沒有沒有委員這個是屬於這種應急的時候這個在疫情的期間沒有辦法解決那我為什麼這樣說我是有道理請部長看一下台南市環保局網站的這個說法這個是台南市環保局的網站他在常見問題那個網頁寫著廚餘中的鹽分偏高可能是戴奧鑫的潛在發生源因為戴奧鑫裡面我們知道有氧有崩緩然後裡面也有氯鹽分就是有氯那不利於這個焚化系統的戴奧鑫的控制那台南環保局是危言聳聽嗎"},{"start":325.434,"end":339.412,"text":"環境部說不會有帶澳新 叫我們放心那同樣都是環境主管機關 那都不同調欸我要請教部長 對啊你如何解決這個問題呢 不同調欸好 謝謝委員 那個其實齁如果焚化爐操作超過850度的話"},{"start":340.814,"end":368.656,"text":"其實那個綠可以被去掉就是比較沒有帶凹心的一個問題那這個過程當中是一個操作的一個問題那現在呢第一個是它這個操作很重要第二個是後面有一個帶凹心的這個回收等於是處理的防治的一個系統另外一個呢是我們去監測它有沒有這個超標所以這個部分我們這個院會來監測中央政府叫大家放心啦然後地方政府現在它這個還掛在這個網站上嘛那請問環境部多久要偵測一次那非公家的風化爐也可以偵測"},{"start":369.818,"end":383.917,"text":"當然當然 我們每一個焚化爐全台灣26個焚化爐我們都會要求說這個月再多量一次所以你近期有要求這個地方環保局要針對大二星的這個數據我有特別請我們署長說因為廚餘現在都往焚化的方向走嘛對對對"},{"start":385.438,"end":400.067,"text":"其實委員就有兩個議題啦一個是現在我們的湯湯水水除以水太多如果把它瀝乾基本上它就跟一般垃圾一樣相對的壓力就沒那麼的大它如果處理好技術上可以處理好的話溫度到一定的位置它的代溫性就不會跑出來"},{"start":402.448,"end":426.57,"text":"你看左邊的圖10月29號環管署理直氣壯的發函要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引至少每50公分要附土30公分的規定去進行廚餘的掩埋這是左邊但是你比對右邊 右邊是10月23號也就是韓文六天前的公告的指引這個指引資質未提覆蓋附土30公分的要求"},{"start":427.17,"end":446.601,"text":"那只說應該要復土那這段文字還懸掛在現在還懸掛在環管署的官網上部長請問這是負責了同仁自己擴大解釋嗎還是您讓他這麼做的因為質疑沒有這麼說但是你發函的部分就告訴他就跑出這個規範來了每50公分復土30公分這兩個資料現在都還在"},{"start":448.622,"end":467.837,"text":"包委員因為這個10層10層0.5覆土30公分這個其實是在好幾年以前早就訂了一個規範那環保單位完全都清楚這樣的一個規範那你近日因為發生觸昏就是那個你的指引公佈的指引沒有寫啊沒有這麼寫啊這個以前就有了 你們要不要說明一下我自己10月29號公佈的"},{"start":468.838,"end":481.532,"text":"110年就早就公布了 各個環保單位都清楚這個都清楚現在20月29號分 然後6天前就去函你先沒有這麼 執意沒有這個東西然後去函的時候有這個東西 配置吧"},{"start":483.274,"end":497.748,"text":"如果掩埋 這個一次沒問題但是這個早就110年早就變我們標準有成的我的觀念是說大家要同調同步啦那那個最後就是環境這個品質文教基金會謝董事長投訴他說文中批判整個台灣的廢棄物減量真的過於保守缺乏系統性的管理導致這個處於垃圾"},{"start":500.229,"end":527.863,"text":"嚴重他說韓國是用7年的緩衝期來分階段來做那日本的企業端他們利用循環利用率非常的高民眾也很習慣做這個處理的分類跟習慣的這個非常普及他歸功於這是法規跟制度面的東西所以相較之下台灣往往把這個循環經濟的概念放在口號他沒有制度性的改革跟法治經濟我覺得謝董事長也是愛之深責之切啦那面對他這樣的批判我想環境部你有沒有一個具體的這個"},{"start":528.803,"end":550.562,"text":"好 謝謝委員 說很容易啦 做不容易啦那我們現在的確規劃的 我會比他說的很多的國家的 我們現在有一定有一個規劃的一個方案但是這個需要經費還有各方面的一個支持尤其是這個廚餘的處理喔 很多縣市在過去為什麼推不起來 都變成嫌惡設施啦所以大家會 地方的抗爭很多這一次就是豬瘟以後 就是廚餘大家知道了然後又開始 應該就剛好是可以趕快啟動"},{"start":555.305,"end":583.9,"text":"因為如果這個觀念的改變我們的廚藥湯湯水水必須要變得有價的來處理那焚化也不是最好的方法嗎都要 都要做所以我們現在的確是有一套的一個方案但是我們現在會配合農政單位一起來推動不是解決了一個問題焚化了但是又跑出另外一個問題出來這個我們都有全盤的規劃那等到整個完整之後包含未來的經費夠了之後我們會對外來宣布那我不會說很容易啦 做很難啦我們其實已經有在做了"},{"start":584.79,"end":589.819,"text":"副部長的肩膀上的責任嗎是是 我們已經有在推動了 政府跟民進一起來好 謝謝副部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，前天豬瘟的疫調出爐了，記者會上，中央政府認為破口不在邊境，而是沒有落實蒸煮。他們繼續這樣說：如果把破口歸於邊境，應該全臺灣都要爆發，而不是單一案例場。我不是非常認同這樣的說法，我知道部長沒有負責這個認定，但我要強調，廚餘蒸煮只是防止感染擴大而已，邊境仍然可能還是破口來源。記者會上的事證也證明這個感染源是境外病毒株種，它不會無端從臺灣內部生出來，難道廚餘本身就有病毒嗎？所以我認為邊境的可能性最高。部長，我想知道你的想法，其實有可能這個病毒一直從邊境進來，不管是海運或機場，但因為絕大多數的豬農守法，把它蒸煮掉了，所以我想知道你對破口點這件事的看法如何？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，雖然我是應變中心成員，可是他們在決定疫調的時候，我都不能參加……"],["陳委員昭姿：你的想法呢？你的想法呢？"],["彭部長啓明：但是就環境部督導廚餘的蒸煮來說，的確有一些案場，但不是多數，多數是好的，有些的確是便宜行事，像這個案場的確就是便宜行事。"],["陳委員昭姿：我的意思是，如果認為破口來自廚餘，那不就表示廚餘裡面有病毒嗎？臺灣是非疫區，又不是臺灣的病毒株種，所以一定是外來的，只是透過蒸煮的處理，也許管理相當好，所以就侷限在那個地方，其他地方沒有被感染到，所以我覺得指揮中心的這個說法不正確，他們認為破口是在蒸煮。"],["彭部長啓明：蒸煮部分，這次的這個案例的確出了一些問題，但是委員，我不是疫調專家，這個要請疫調專家來處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，你用common sense就可以了……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，基本上，報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：病毒如果在臺灣的廚餘裡那還得了！"],["彭部長啓明：以我們來說，如果蒸煮1個小時、90度，就不會有這樣的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，沒關係，我想你也不好意思講清楚。","部長，上週六環管署林左祥副署長提到，中央協調所的專家會議指出，長期廚餘去化要以資源循環化為導向。這個會議紀錄我一直跟環境部索取，可是一直沒有收到，請問部長，可以給我們嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們每天都有會議，這沒有問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，因為這個資料我們一直沒有收到，那就麻煩環境部儘快提供給辦公室，謝謝。","目前地方政府在設施量能上、技術選擇上都仰賴焚化，請問部長，對於地方在廚餘生質能源化的努力，中央未來要提供多少支援？事實上，從2000年開始，大家就說要規劃用資源循環化為導向，但我們看到這次應變中心說還有70%是以焚化來處理廚餘的去化，也就代表說中央跟地方政府一直從末端處理，與我們所謂的資源循環化還有很大的落差和進步空間，請問部長，你有想過要扭轉這樣的趨勢嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有的，報告委員，其實我們一直在算現在每天的落差，全臺灣加起來大概是500噸，有些縣市沒有問題，我舉例，像屏東一天40萬噸，內部處理沒有問題，但是其他縣市廚餘都送到屏東去餵豬，基本上，如果那個斷掉的話，變成各縣市處理各縣市的，其他縣市的確量能是不夠，只能靠焚燒，現在我們就是要每個縣市估算想要做什麼、未來希望做什麼，我們在媒合當中，也正在爭取一些經費。不過也跟委員報告，現在所謂的廚餘跟垃圾處理，我們希望透過促參方式快速來解決，讓政府的負擔不會那麼重。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，源頭處理或是資源化。","部長，禮拜一開始，臺中市政府宣布廚餘全面焚化，不再掩埋，而環保團體指出廚餘裡面含有氯氣，加上澱粉，燃燒後容易產生戴奧辛，但環管署林副署長公開說，焚化爐都有相關污染防制設備和檢測，請民眾放心，廚餘焚化不會造成戴奧辛的污染。部長，真的是這樣嗎？確實是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一，這個我已經請我們同仁未來這個月一定要額外再加驗一次，每個焚化爐都要加驗一次，因為驗一次還蠻貴的，而且還蠻難處理的。"],["陳委員昭姿：環管署的發言代表環境部……"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：那是不是代表環境部為廚餘焚化背書呢？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，這是屬於應急的措施，在疫情期間沒有辦法解決。"],["陳委員昭姿：我為什麼這樣說？請部長看一下臺南市環保局網站的這個說法，這是臺南市環保局網站，在「常見問題」的網頁上寫著：廚餘中的鹽分偏高，可能是戴奧辛的潛在發生源。我們知道戴奧辛裡面有氧、酚，也有氯，鹽分就是有氯，不利於焚化系統的戴奧辛控制。臺南環保局是危言聳聽嗎？環境部說不會有戴奧辛，叫我們放心，同樣都是環境主管機關，卻不同調，所以我要請教部長，你如何解決不同調的問題呢？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。其實焚化爐操作超過850度的話，氯就可以被去掉，比較沒有戴奧辛的問題，這是操作過程的問題，第一個，操作很重要；第二個，後面會有一個戴奧辛處理的防制系統。另外，我們也會監測有沒有超標，所以這個部分，我們這個月……"],["陳委員昭姿：中央政府叫大家放心，但地方政府的這個訊息還掛在網站上。請問環境部，多久要偵測一次？非公家的焚化爐也可以偵測、管理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：當然、當然，全臺灣26個焚化爐，我們每一個都會要求這個月要再多測一次。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你近期有要求地方環保局要針對戴奧辛的數據……"],["彭部長啓明：我有特別請我們署長要多……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為廚餘現在都往焚化方向走嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對，委員，其實這有兩個議題，一個是現在的廚餘湯湯水水，水分太多，如果瀝乾，基本上就跟一般垃圾一樣，相對處理的壓力就沒那麼大，如果好好處理，技術上處理好，溫度到一定位置，戴奧辛就不會跑出來。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就是要落實，落實就是要稽核，有很多的工作要做好。","部長，你看左邊的圖，10月29號環管署理直氣壯發函，要求各縣市政府要依照環境部因應非洲豬瘟防疫禁止廚餘養豬的指引，至少每50公分要覆土30公分的規定進行廚餘掩埋；但是你比對右邊這張圖，右邊是10月23號，也就是函文6天前的公告指引，這個指引隻字未提覆土30公分的要求，只說應該要覆土，這段文字現在還懸掛在環管署官網上。請問部長，這是負責的同仁自己擴大解釋，還是你讓他這麼做的？因為指引沒有這麼規定，但是發函的部分就跑出這個規範，要求每50公分覆土30公分，這兩個資料現在都還在欸！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個10乘10乘0.5、覆土30公分的規定，其實是好幾年以前早就訂的規範，環保單位完全清楚這樣一個規範。"],["陳委員昭姿：但近日發生豬瘟事件，你公布的指引沒有寫啊！沒有這麼寫啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個以前就有了，你們要不要說明一下，這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是10月29號公布的。"],["彭部長啓明：110年早就公布了，各個環保單位都清楚，大家都清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這是10月29號的函文，6天前公告的指引沒有這個東西，但去函的時候有這個東西……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，如果掩埋……"],["陳委員昭姿：可以一致吧？"],["彭部長啓明：一致沒有問題，但是這個早在110年就列為我們的標準流程了。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就一致嘛！我的觀念是大家要同調、同步。","最後，環境品質文教基金會謝董事長投書，文中批判臺灣廢棄物減量政策過於保守，缺乏系統性管理，導致廚餘、垃圾問題嚴重。他說韓國用7年的緩衝期來分階段實施；日本的企業端的循環利用率非常高，民眾廚餘分流習慣普及，均歸功於法規跟制度面的完善；相較之下，臺灣往往把循環經濟概念放在口號裡，沒有制度性改革與法制精進。我覺得謝董事長是愛之深、責之切，面對他這樣的批判，環境部有沒有具體的作為？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，說很容易，做卻不容易，我們現在的確規劃……"],["陳委員昭姿：那部長就是要承擔啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我會比他說的很多國家……我們現在已經有一個規劃方案，但是這個需要經費還有各方面的支持，尤其是廚餘的處理，過去很多縣市為什麼推不起來？變成是嫌惡設施，而地方的抗爭也很多。"],["陳委員昭姿：這一次嘛！在這一次豬瘟以後，我想廚餘問題大家都知道了，剛好可以趕快啟動。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是觀念的改變，如果我們的廚餘湯湯水水可以改變，變成有價的來處理，包括餐廳……"],["陳委員昭姿：焚化也不是最好的方法嘛！是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：都要、都要做，現在的確是有一套方案，我們會配合農政單位一起來推動……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是用焚化解決了一個問題，但又跑出了另外一個戴奧辛的問題出來……"],["彭部長啓明：是、是、是，這個我們都有全盤的規劃，等到整個完整之後，包含未來的經費夠了之後，我們會對外宣布。委員，說很容易啦！做很難啦！我們是已經有在做了。"],["陳委員昭姿：這就是部長肩膀上的責任。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我們已經有在推動了，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：政府跟民間一起來，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，謝謝、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員發言。","請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-8","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","劉建國","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","盧縣一","牛煦庭","張智倫"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2025-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1149201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、內政部、農業部、交通部、行政院公共工程委員會就「非法棄置\n到城市採礦：檢討環境部環境管理署執法痛點與城市採礦推動策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、繼續審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育\n敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬\n具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音\n管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第\n二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第\n二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條\n條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員林倩綺等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二條、第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正\n草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149201_00003"}}}