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模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 581.246, \"end\": 581.426, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 581.426, \"end\": 581.846, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 581.846, \"end\": 582.006, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 582.006, \"end\": 582.187, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 582.187, \"end\": 582.407, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 582.407, \"end\": 582.607, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 582.607, \"end\": 582.727, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 582.727, \"end\": 583.147, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 583.147, \"end\": 583.267, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 583.267, \"end\": 583.387, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 583.387, \"end\": 583.487, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 583.487, \"end\": 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\"度\", \"start\": 695.942, \"end\": 695.962, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 697.142, \"end\": 717.024, \"text\": \"所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 697.142, \"end\": 697.322, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 697.322, \"end\": 697.623, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 697.623, \"end\": 697.723, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 697.723, \"end\": 697.923, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 697.923, \"end\": 698.203, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 698.203, \"end\": 698.384, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 698.384, \"end\": 698.644, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 698.644, \"end\": 698.884, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 698.884, \"end\": 699.104, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 699.104, \"end\": 699.244, 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\"些\", \"start\": 712.8, \"end\": 713.0, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 713.0, \"end\": 713.22, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 713.22, \"end\": 713.781, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 713.781, \"end\": 714.001, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 714.001, \"end\": 714.141, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 714.141, \"end\": 714.381, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 714.381, \"end\": 714.782, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 714.782, \"end\": 714.982, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 714.982, \"end\": 715.122, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 715.122, \"end\": 715.262, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 715.262, \"end\": 715.443, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 715.443, \"end\": 715.743, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"趕\"}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 715.743, \"end\": 716.023, \"score\": 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\"end\": 1081.881, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1081.881, \"end\": 1081.981, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1081.981, \"end\": 1082.121, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 1082.121, \"end\": 1082.582, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"徑\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1082.582, \"end\": 1082.922, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 1082.922, \"end\": 1083.262, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 1083.262, \"end\": 1083.803, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 1083.803, \"end\": 1083.983, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1083.983, \"end\": 1084.423, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1084.423, \"end\": 1084.644, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 1084.644, \"end\": 1084.864, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1084.864, \"end\": 1085.264, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1085.264, \"end\": 1085.524, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1085.524, \"end\": 1085.745, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1085.745, \"end\": 1085.965, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1085.965, \"end\": 1086.105, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1086.105, \"end\": 1086.225, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1086.225, \"end\": 1086.425, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1086.425, \"end\": 1086.625, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1086.625, \"end\": 1086.786, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 1086.786, \"end\": 1087.046, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 1087.046, \"end\": 1087.266, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1087.266, \"end\": 1087.326, \"score\": 0.402}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1087.326, \"end\": 1087.346, \"score\": 0.079}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 1087.346, \"end\": 1087.566, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 1087.566, \"end\": 1087.706, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 1087.706, \"end\": 1087.726, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1087.726, \"end\": 1087.807, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 1087.807, \"end\": 1087.827, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,894 --> 00:00:17,399\n謝謝主席我們是不是請環境部彭部長還有農業部的黃次長上台請部長跟次長\n\n2\n00:00:19,390 --> 00:00:46,538\n部長次長好我現在手上這邊有一份是我們中央災害應變中心非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心33次的會議記錄那這個是114年5月16號星期五下午3點召開的請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議部長你有參加嗎沒有\n\n3\n00:00:48,188 --> 00:00:59,411\n你沒有參加環境部誰參加沒有派員嗎應該是我們劉副組長只是副組長參加農業部這個是陳指揮官俊記主持農業部那次長你有參加嗎\n\n4\n00:01:08,479 --> 00:01:37,237\n没有好我要问的就是在这一场会议当中其实有一个很重要的防疫的决定就是他说请环境部环管署及农业部这个畜牧师针对200头以上厨艺养猪场持续查核加强集合落实厨余确实经高温蒸煮\n\n5\n00:01:39,235 --> 00:02:06,828\n從5月16號開完會到這個爆發了非洲豬瘟請問這四個月當中你們真的有落實去查核嗎去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮都有90度持續一個小時嗎如果有查核紀錄報告請現在跟大家做說明\n\n6\n00:02:07,677 --> 00:02:24,234\n報告委員這個茶盒是地方環保局要去茶盒那我們是負責積茶我們是積茶3%左右的量那這個是地方環保局因為這個養豬飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的所以是地方政府要做這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄\n\n7\n00:02:25,855 --> 00:02:44,634\n環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的一個加強稽核的目標也就是說中央有這個稽核的責任那我就再問這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎有派員地方有參加嗎\n\n8\n00:02:46,141 --> 00:03:09,568\n報告委員我們這個其實在珍珠的這個調路我們每天每個月都有一個完全的清單這個部長你聽我講齁我今天要表達的就是非洲出溫中央在害應變中心有開會也知道說高溫珍珠是防疫的重中之重而且也清楚展明在第33次的會議紀錄裡面\n\n9\n00:03:11,829 --> 00:03:27,846\n那今天爆發出來就代表有開會但是沒有貫徹執行中央也沒有貫徹督導所以我要問的是請問開完會之後你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達\n\n10\n00:03:29,347 --> 00:03:50,449\n然後督導然後真的有到場去看有沒有就近去看這樣的一個完整的你們的督導的記錄集合的記錄我覺得應該要完整的呈現出來才知道說這一次為什麼有開會但是沒有效果還是爆發了為什麼會是這樣子呢\n\n11\n00:03:52,643 --> 00:04:08,552\n來請說你們做了什麼你們這當中做了什麼農業部做了什麼環管署又做了什麼會議記錄是這樣子講的喔如果你們真的有徹底的一場一場針對這個沒有達到百分之百的一場一場去看的話那可能就會提早發現問題\n\n12\n00:04:10,101 --> 00:04:32,560\n來包委員這一個會議是例行性的會議那每逢重大節日尤其例如端午中秋之前這個都會有陳部長召集相關的單位去開這個會議那這個應該是在端午節之前開的那這次會議裡面講的集合就是我們講的這一套制度\n\n13\n00:04:33,180 --> 00:04:53,448\n我們要去加強集合就是要加強頻率你們有嗎有當然有好夠述本席你們加強了多少次這四個月當中你們集合的頻率增加了多少每一個月我們都會去集合出來申報有短缺的那我們就花文給\n\n14\n00:04:55,008 --> 00:05:22,222\n這個地方政府請他前去稽查我們稽核的是這一塊同時我們會在這裡面他們稽查過的抽3%你那個是例行性的你的加強強化在哪裡嘛這個就是強化在其實平常都強化他只是提醒啦我們強化平常是平常強化就是要增加頻率跟次數不要在那邊講這一些文字遊戲喔我今天要指出來的就是你們就是沒有到位嘛\n\n15\n00:05:23,082 --> 00:05:49,894\n會只是形式的開玩而已嗎各部會有用心去好好督導跟查核嗎因為之前這個坦白講大家就是心態鬆散因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟所以行李如意的開玩會根本沒有加強的措施也沒有強化的措施剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的所謂的強化就是頻率要增加你增加多少頻率提高了50%還是60%\n\n16\n00:05:52,895 --> 00:06:11,724\n請說明以5到9月我們每一個月都有清查出來那些所以相較於去年你的頻率是提高了多少這個不是他提醒的是應該是你一個月查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給那這麼怎麼叫加強\n\n17\n00:06:14,485 --> 00:06:33,772\n你文字沒有看清楚嗎連環管署自己的會議記錄都看不清楚派的成績那麼低只是副組長連署長自己都沒去副署長也沒有去有重視嗎人家指揮官是陳部長欸你環境部才派的成績是誰你們有相對重視這件事情嗎有有十二指等的副署長\n\n18\n00:06:35,270 --> 00:06:51,925\n有12職等的副組長你剛剛是說副組長副組長那回去你們有強化什麼措施針對各縣市的環保局你們是怎麼個督導法怎麼的加強集合今天我要揪出這個問題就是不要只是形式主義\n\n19\n00:06:53,446 --> 00:07:18,025\n會只是這樣子開所以有沒有開會有都有開會開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行沒有你們剛講的那一套就是你的SOP就是平常這樣那開什麼會叫加強集合根本就沒有加強這兩個字嘛你們是按照平常的集合才會出現這樣的情況嘛另外一個我要指出來的是在這一份會議紀錄裡面農業部你們對於這一些\n\n20\n00:07:23,351 --> 00:07:26,837\n廚餘廠你到底是要禁止還是要開放你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說還有新增\n\n21\n00:07:30,475 --> 00:08:00,035\n之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要強化這一些廚藝場的管理結果呢你不減反增什麼三年內還出現31間新設的廚藝養豬場你在政策上面你沒有關門他只要來申請還是可以繼續就是用廚藝養豬那你政策到底是怎麼去執行的你199頭以下你是全部禁用那你不是慢慢走向落日你還開放新增的\n\n22\n00:08:00,735 --> 00:08:22,403\n我們目前在整個政策上面確實是往輔導他往他退場的方向來走但是我們並沒有去做禁止的這樣的那你這是什麼政策啊從2000多場到目前為止已經降下來到400多場那我們未來的方向還是希望持續在以政策的鼓勵那怎麼可能會有新設的呢\n\n23\n00:08:23,283 --> 00:08:43,612\n法律上面並沒有禁止所以你的政策就不明確啊目前是沒有完全禁止這樣的一個部分你們也沒有想要禁止嘛如果政策是要走向禁止就不應該有新設啊那就是一個落日的概念啊讓他慢慢就是有一些他就自動不來設計如果政策面將來要有一個落日的這個訂定的話那就會有這樣的一個限制\n\n24\n00:08:44,753 --> 00:08:55,919\n那所以這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了我要問你的是那這段期間如果還有人要持續用廚藝養豬來新設你們還是會同意嗎目前來說的話我們已經表達非常清楚了那除非達到了那個我們的監控還有持續監管的這個三個條件能夠滿足我們還有法規的這個配適能夠滿足我們才會再來看這個開放廚藝這個事情否則在目前非洲豬瘟的這個疫情還在的這個現況裡面我們目前是不會去開放廚藝的\n\n25\n00:09:14,548 --> 00:09:40,666\n那如果有新設的符合標準也讓他設嗎目前不可能讓他有這個新設因為目前就是已經禁止使用廚餘這樣的一個禁令所以我要點出來的問題就是你農業部的政策不夠明確嘛你從當時要嚴禁然後希望這個廚餘可以慢慢落日結果你中間還讓有一些新設的廚餘廠還是繼續可以新設你這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的你知道嗎\n\n26\n00:09:41,246 --> 00:09:58,335\n所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明就像我們一直在問說到底要不要完全禁止廚藥你們就是不敢講曖昧模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看\n\n27\n00:09:59,595 --> 00:10:22,928\n現在的這一些為什麼廚餘養豬其實有那麼多的漏洞你們真的覺得只有台中這一場是這樣子嗎實務上真的是這樣子嗎就已經有人點出來了就是市場那個整個徵主的過程是非常的繁複的如果大家有去看這個是沒一起去拍的你真的要做到好你知道他要花的時間\n\n28\n00:10:24,537 --> 00:10:52,827\n跟燃料費跟溫度待他冷卻到破碎那個工法坦白講是反覆的有媒體去拍嗎你光加熱你這種10噸的廚藝煮沸要2到3個小時冬天的話可能要到5個小時那煮沸之後還要等他冷卻靜置可能是要整個晚上然後之後才需要再攪拌然後才可以再給豬吃\n\n29\n00:10:54,548 --> 00:11:06,300\n我今天要問的就是到目前為止你有77家就是申報率低於90%的請問這77家他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎因為坊間都有人講說\n\n30\n00:11:15,595 --> 00:11:35,962\n根本要做到這樣子有一些他設備各方面功能沒有那麼完整的他還是會討價保就像台中的這一場他壞掉他可能沒有修然後他冷的他直接就這樣推進去給豬吃人家也不知道相片也不見得是即時的相片看到相片你也不知道溫度是90度\n\n31\n00:11:37,142 --> 00:11:57,024\n所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下\n\n32\n00:11:57,945 --> 00:12:19,142\n報告委員這個我們上次報告都說得很清楚我們有新的設備新的做法如果還要整組要用的話我們又有新的方式來做監控那第二個呢是這個工作是地方環保局要去第一線聚合因為這個許可證是他們發的當然我們會去聚合他妳要督導啊當然督導啊整個非洲豬人的中央災害應變中心不是你們中央部會再開的嗎\n\n33\n00:12:19,642 --> 00:12:38,106\n我們在督導他們有在參加對啊所以你們要督導啊你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛我剛剛給你看的就是從五月份到九月份你們督導了什麼你們集合了什麼我們有督導啊那你應該事先就要發現啊我們早就發現了啊早就發現幾月份來部長說部長說早就發現我們發現他不確實就告訴他你一定要去幾月份爆發非洲豬瘟之前\n\n34\n00:12:45,188 --> 00:13:00,822\n他其實5月7月我們每個月每個月都發議場所以每個月都發函給他要去稽查要去稽查恰西那家恰西那家都有讓他知道那你為什麼不要親自中央就帶隊到現場去呢嚴格的查核呢這是地方的事務地方去督導中央要卸責嗎\n\n35\n00:13:02,023 --> 00:13:27,551\n我沒有卸責我們制度可以改善所以你一直講說地方的責任那就是想中央卸責嗎沒有卸責中央跟地方都有責任不是只有地方的責任中央督導不周當然也有責任所以這件事情我要講的是我必須說實話其他家中部有很多其他家像彰化我們也同樣的幾家他們都有去查核部長你要保證這70幾家現在都沒有問題申報率沒有百分之百的你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎\n\n36\n00:13:28,351 --> 00:13:47,649\n現在沒有了現在每一家珍珠的這個已經到第三輪的去檢測現在是沒有問題的百分之百了現在沒有啊現在沒有問題因為現在靜養了我們還是去去稽查它有沒有去處理味足所以按照你們的掛保證台灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了這個我們不是這個專業但是這個目前的這個規定你不是說百分之百珍珠嗎\n\n37\n00:13:48,790 --> 00:14:13,977\n現在沒有在徵阻這個事啦但是我們去集合看他有沒有在徵阻那未來還會徵阻啊因為你們現在沒有禁啊這個不知道這個不知道你們還要推這個就是很矛盾委員這個我們上次說得很清楚如果要徵阻有三個條件我們環境部負責的是徵阻必須要自動化的即時監測這是一個必要的條件所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了你的那個即時化的監測你真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎\n\n38\n00:14:14,637 --> 00:14:41,749\n即時化的監測溫度還包含的CCTV直接可以看得清楚這是我們目前可以做的那你就可以確保是百分之百的增組我們是希望我現在要告訴你的是夏業我們看到的是其實有更先進更科技的做法對這個我們都知道這個我們都知道那你應該往這個方向去研議啊結果你們現在是在增組設備去加裝什麼你要百分之百的監控但是又做不到位那像這個有這麼好的model在這邊\n\n39\n00:14:43,369 --> 00:15:09,019\n這樣子的一個model然後其他的model你只要增加設備跟技術你可以很快的轉型而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的這件事情這個也是我們希望要到的目標那我就問你你這一個具體的規劃是什麼你預計要設多少的廠來消化你現在沒有辦法去化的廚餘這個我們內部都已經在討論完成那但是這個東西必須要什麼時候要提出來\n\n40\n00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:24,320\n我現在不能回答這個是行政院整個規劃的就是你們正向衛民嘛沒有衛民這個很清楚這個院長說了三個這個原則必須遵守條件然後法規查驗等等這個按照這個原則我們就可以往下走\n\n41\n00:15:25,836 --> 00:15:41,255\n那未來的規劃你那個路線跟這是不一樣的你知道你在說什麼嗎我當然知道啊這個珍珠這個是另外一條線這個不是馬上就可以好這個也要一兩年一段時間那你有在規劃嗎當然在規劃了啊那我要問你你這個規劃期程是什麼這個規劃也要經費也要大院來支持我們現在在規劃了\n\n42\n00:15:42,236 --> 00:16:11,753\n但是你們如果積極去規劃你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃沒有沒有委員我們早就在這個路線在走了你現在是去裝那個監視器嘛你現在是在忙著要加裝很多監視器委員我上次的報告說得很清楚有監視器未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來了你沒有具體啊我現在要問的是你具體像類似這樣子先進的科技它就可以把它轉換成是一個好的肥料跟飼料這個機器設備你要採購幾台然後哪一些縣市要布\n\n43\n00:16:12,293 --> 00:16:34,839\n這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點你都沒有你都是空的我沒有沒有委員我不是空的我們早就準備好了一個月提出來委員沒辦法你已經準備好了我們還在做疫情的不是空的又提不出來部長這個不是在延遲的狡辯我們是做事的不是說的所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚但是這個部分我必須院內要核定要院長來核定我們必須要尊重整個你說你好了\n\n44\n00:16:35,814 --> 00:16:58,010\n我們規劃往那個方式去做你規劃出來了我們現在在處理這個疫情那又要處理中長期的問題那你就說你還沒有規劃好你一下子就說你規劃好了我沒有說我規劃好您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向所以你還沒規劃嘛我要求就是你們這個應該要有更具體的圖像路徑你到底要準備怎麼做你們現在是空的嘛\n\n45\n00:16:59,011 --> 00:17:24,525\n委員如果在政府機關做事我有一個想法要經過一個跨部會的協調大家是不是同意要編訂預算往前走不是說我今天說喔這樣做就這樣做的你可以先做好你的配套啊然後去說服其他部會啊你上次也說你不反對全面禁止廚餘啊你們的態度都是模擬兩可都變來變去我們有一些原則在做這個事情的那我再問你那個我們的環境部彭部長你支不支持全面禁止廚餘\n\n46\n00:17:26,244 --> 00:17:43,785\n我是支持但是有一個情況包括委員廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題那我就在告訴你廚餘的去化有很多種的方法但是時間上現在來不及委員現在來不及一兩年內所以你回答的跟你做的我覺得沒有產生高度的連結委員不能這樣說\n\n47\n00:17:45,006 --> 00:18:07,827\n你就會好好去規劃完全禁止出於應該是什麼路徑我要採購哪些設備哪些是可行的方法就會一直往那個方向去推進委員這個是有一個時間劇烈的去進行我想今天的質詢我是告訴部會喔就是你們的立場政策要夠明確然後你的路徑才會清楚然後地方的縣市也才可以好好的配合以上謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8894\t17399\t謝謝主席我們是不是請環境部彭部長還有農業部的黃次長上台請部長跟次長\n19390\t46538\t部長次長好我現在手上這邊有一份是我們中央災害應變中心非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心33次的會議記錄那這個是114年5月16號星期五下午3點召開的請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議部長你有參加嗎沒有\n48188\t59411\t你沒有參加 環境部誰參加沒有派員嗎應該是我們劉副組長只是副組長參加農業部這個是陳指揮官 俊記主持農業部 那次長你有參加嗎\n68479\t97237\t没有好我要问的就是在这一场会议当中其实有一个很重要的防疫的决定就是他说请环境部环管署及农业部这个畜牧师针对200头以上厨艺养猪场持续查核加强集合落实厨余确实经高温蒸煮\n99235\t126828\t從5月16號開完會到這個爆發了非洲豬瘟請問這四個月當中你們真的有落實去查核嗎去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮都有90度持續一個小時嗎如果有查核紀錄報告請現在跟大家做說明\n127677\t144234\t報告委員 這個茶盒是地方環保局要去茶盒那我們是負責積茶我們是積茶3%左右的量那這個是地方環保局因為這個養豬飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的所以是地方政府要做這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄\n145855\t164634\t環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的一個加強稽核的目標也就是說中央有這個稽核的責任那我就再問這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎有派員 地方有參加嗎\n166141\t189568\t報告委員 我們這個其實在珍珠的這個調路我們每天每個月都有一個完全的清單這個部長你聽我講齁我今天要表達的就是非洲出溫中央在害應變中心有開會也知道說高溫珍珠是防疫的重中之重而且也清楚展明在第33次的會議紀錄裡面\n191829\t207846\t那今天爆發出來就代表有開會但是沒有貫徹執行中央也沒有貫徹督導所以我要問的是請問開完會之後你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達\n209347\t230449\t然後督導然後真的有到場去看有沒有就近去看這樣的一個完整的你們的督導的記錄 集合的記錄我覺得應該要完整的呈現出來才知道說這一次為什麼有開會但是沒有效果還是爆發了為什麼會是這樣子呢\n232643\t248552\t來 請說你們做了什麼你們這當中做了什麼農業部做了什麼 環管署又做了什麼會議記錄是這樣子講的喔如果你們真的有徹底的一場一場針對這個沒有達到百分之百的一場一場去看的話那可能就會提早發現問題\n250101\t272560\t來 包委員 這一個會議是例行性的會議那每逢重大節日 尤其例如端午中秋之前這個都會有陳部長召集相關的單位去開這個會議那這個應該是在端午節之前開的那這次會議裡面講的集合就是我們講的這一套制度\n273180\t293448\t我們要去 加強集合就是要加強頻率你們有嗎有 當然有好 夠述本席你們加強了多少次這四個月當中你們集合的頻率增加了多少每一個月我們都會去集合出來申報有短缺的那我們就花文給\n295008\t322222\t這個地方政府請他前去稽查我們稽核的是這一塊同時我們會在這裡面他們稽查過的抽3%你那個是例行性的 你的加強強化在哪裡嘛這個就是強化在其實平常都強化他只是提醒啦我們強化 平常是平常強化就是要增加頻率跟次數不要在那邊講這一些文字遊戲喔我今天要指出來的就是你們就是沒有到位嘛\n323082\t349894\t會只是形式的開玩而已嗎各部會有用心去好好督導跟查核嗎因為之前這個坦白講大家就是心態鬆散因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟所以行李如意的開玩會根本沒有加強的措施也沒有強化的措施剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的所謂的強化就是頻率要增加你增加多少頻率提高了50%還是60%\n352895\t371724\t請說明 以5到9月我們每一個月都有清查出來那些所以相較於去年你的頻率是提高了多少這個 不是 他提醒的是應該是你一個月查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給那這麼怎麼叫加強\n374485\t393772\t你文字沒有看清楚嗎 連環管署自己的會議記錄都看不清楚派的成績那麼低 只是副組長連署長自己都沒去 副署長也沒有去有重視嗎 人家指揮官是陳部長欸你環境部才派的成績是誰你們有相對重視這件事情嗎有 有十二指等的副署長\n395270\t411925\t有12職等的副組長 你剛剛是說副組長副組長那回去你們有強化什麼措施針對各縣市的環保局你們是怎麼個督導法怎麼的加強集合今天我要揪出這個問題就是不要只是形式主義\n413446\t438025\t會只是這樣子開所以有沒有開會有都有開會開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行沒有你們剛講的那一套就是你的SOP就是平常這樣那開什麼會叫加強集合根本就沒有加強這兩個字嘛你們是按照平常的集合才會出現這樣的情況嘛另外一個我要指出來的是在這一份會議紀錄裡面農業部你們對於這一些\n443351\t446837\t廚餘廠你到底是要禁止還是要開放你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說還有新增\n450475\t480035\t之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要強化這一些廚藝場的管理結果呢你不減反增什麼三年內還出現31間新設的廚藝養豬場你在政策上面你沒有關門他只要來申請還是可以繼續就是用廚藝養豬那你政策到底是怎麼去執行的你199頭以下你是全部禁用那你不是慢慢走向落日你還開放新增的\n480735\t502403\t我們目前在整個政策上面確實是往輔導他往他退場的方向來走 但是我們並沒有去做禁止的這樣的 那你這是什麼政策啊從2000多場到目前為止已經降下來到400多場那我們未來的方向還是希望持續在以政策的鼓勵那怎麼可能會有新設的呢\n503283\t523612\t法律上面並沒有禁止所以你的政策就不明確啊目前是沒有完全禁止這樣的一個部分你們也沒有想要禁止嘛如果政策是要走向禁止就不應該有新設啊那就是一個落日的概念啊讓他慢慢就是有一些他就自動不來設計如果政策面將來要有一個落日的這個訂定的話那就會有這樣的一個限制\n524753\t535919\t那所以這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了我要問你的是那這段期間如果還有人要持續用廚藝養豬來新設你們還是會同意嗎目前來說的話我們已經表達非常清楚了那除非達到了那個我們的監控還有持續監管的這個三個條件能夠滿足我們還有法規的這個配適能夠滿足我們才會再來看這個開放廚藝這個事情否則在目前非洲豬瘟的這個疫情還在的這個現況裡面我們目前是不會去開放廚藝的\n554548\t580666\t那如果有新設的符合標準也讓他設嗎目前不可能讓他有這個新設因為目前就是已經禁止使用廚餘這樣的一個禁令所以我要點出來的問題就是你農業部的政策不夠明確嘛你從當時要嚴禁然後希望這個廚餘可以慢慢落日結果你中間還讓有一些新設的廚餘廠還是繼續可以新設你這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的你知道嗎\n581246\t598335\t所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明就像我們一直在問說到底要不要完全禁止廚藥你們就是不敢講曖昧 模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看\n599595\t622928\t現在的這一些為什麼廚餘養豬其實有那麼多的漏洞你們真的覺得只有台中這一場是這樣子嗎實務上真的是這樣子嗎就已經有人點出來了就是市場那個整個徵主的過程是非常的繁複的如果大家有去看這個是沒一起去拍的你真的要做到好你知道他要花的時間\n624537\t652827\t跟燃料費跟溫度待他冷卻到破碎那個工法坦白講是反覆的有媒體去拍嗎你光加熱你這種10噸的廚藝煮沸要2到3個小時冬天的話可能要到5個小時那煮沸之後還要等他冷卻靜置可能是要整個晚上然後之後才需要再攪拌然後才可以再給豬吃\n654548\t666300\t我今天要問的就是到目前為止你有77家就是申報率低於90%的請問這77家他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎因為坊間都有人講說\n675595\t695962\t根本要做到這樣子有一些他設備各方面功能沒有那麼完整的他還是會討價保就像台中的這一場他壞掉他可能沒有修然後他冷的他直接就這樣推進去給豬吃人家也不知道相片也不見得是即時的相片看到相片你也不知道溫度是90度\n697142\t717024\t所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下\n717945\t739142\t報告委員 這個我們上次報告都說得很清楚我們有新的設備 新的做法如果還要整組要用的話我們又有新的方式來做監控那第二個呢 是這個工作是地方環保局要去第一線聚合因為這個許可證是他們發的當然我們會去聚合他 妳要督導啊當然督導啊整個非洲豬人的中央災害應變中心不是你們中央部會再開的嗎\n739642\t758106\t我們在督導 他們有在參加對啊 所以你們要督導啊你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛我剛剛給你看的就是從五月份到九月份你們督導了什麼 你們集合了什麼我們有督導啊那你應該事先就要發現啊我們早就發現了啊早就發現 幾月份來 部長說 部長說早就發現我們發現他不確實就告訴他你一定要去 幾月份爆發非洲豬瘟之前\n765188\t780822\t他其實5月7月我們每個月每個月都發議場所以每個月都發函給他要去稽查要去稽查恰西那家恰西那家都有讓他知道那你為什麼不要親自中央就帶隊到現場去呢嚴格的查核呢這是地方的事務地方去督導中央要卸責嗎\n782023\t807551\t我沒有卸責 我們制度可以改善所以你一直講說地方的責任 那就是想中央卸責嗎沒有卸責中央跟地方都有責任不是只有地方的責任中央督導不周當然也有責任所以這件事情我要講的是我必須說實話 其他家 中部有很多其他家像彰化 我們也同樣的幾家 他們都有去查核部長你要保證這70幾家現在都沒有問題申報率沒有百分之百的你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎\n808351\t827649\t現在沒有了 現在每一家珍珠的這個已經到第三輪的去檢測現在是沒有問題的 百分之百了現在沒有啊 現在沒有問題 因為現在靜養了 我們還是去去稽查它有沒有去處理味足所以按照你們的掛保證 台灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了這個我們不是這個專業 但是這個目前的這個規定你不是說百分之百珍珠嗎\n828790\t853977\t現在沒有在徵阻這個事啦但是我們去集合看他有沒有在徵阻那未來還會徵阻啊因為你們現在沒有禁啊這個不知道這個不知道你們還要推這個就是很矛盾委員 這個我們上次說得很清楚如果要徵阻有三個條件我們環境部負責的是徵阻必須要自動化的即時監測這是一個必要的條件所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了你的那個即時化的監測你真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎\n854637\t881749\t即時化的監測溫度還包含的CCTV直接可以看得清楚這是我們目前可以做的那你就可以確保是百分之百的增組我們是希望我現在要告訴你的是夏業我們看到的是其實有更先進更科技的做法對這個我們都知道這個我們都知道那你應該往這個方向去研議啊結果你們現在是在增組設備去加裝什麼你要百分之百的監控但是又做不到位那像這個有這麼好的model在這邊\n883369\t909019\t這樣子的一個model然後其他的model你只要增加設備跟技術你可以很快的轉型而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的這件事情這個也是我們希望要到的目標那我就問你你這一個具體的規劃是什麼你預計要設多少的廠來消化你現在沒有辦法去化的廚餘這個我們內部都已經在討論完成那但是這個東西必須要什麼時候要提出來\n910200\t924320\t我現在不能回答 這個是行政院整個規劃的就是你們正向衛民嘛沒有衛民 這個很清楚這個院長說了三個這個原則必須遵守條件然後法規 查驗等等這個按照這個原則我們就可以往下走\n925836\t941255\t那未來的規劃你那個路線跟這是不一樣的你知道你在說什麼嗎我當然知道啊這個珍珠這個是另外一條線這個不是馬上就可以好這個也要一兩年一段時間那你有在規劃嗎當然在規劃了啊那我要問你你這個規劃期程是什麼這個規劃也要經費也要大院來支持我們現在在規劃了\n942236\t971753\t但是你們如果積極去規劃你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃沒有沒有 委員我們早就在這個路線在走了你現在是去裝那個監視器嘛你現在是在忙著要加裝很多監視器委員我上次的報告說得很清楚有監視器未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來了你沒有具體啊我現在要問的是你具體像類似這樣子先進的科技它就可以把它轉換成是一個好的肥料跟飼料這個機器設備你要採購幾台然後哪一些縣市要布\n972293\t994839\t這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點你都沒有你都是空的我沒有沒有委員我不是空的我們早就準備好了一個月提出來委員沒辦法你已經準備好了我們還在做疫情的不是空的又提不出來部長這個不是在延遲的狡辯我們是做事的不是說的所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚但是這個部分我必須院內要核定要院長來核定我們必須要尊重整個你說你好了\n995814\t1018010\t我們規劃往那個方式去做你規劃出來了我們現在在處理這個疫情那又要處理中長期的問題那你就說你還沒有規劃好你一下子就說你規劃好了我沒有說我規劃好您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向所以你還沒規劃嘛我要求就是你們這個應該要有更具體的圖像 路徑你到底要準備怎麼做你們現在是空的嘛\n1019011\t1044525\t委員 如果在政府機關做事 我有一個想法要經過一個跨部會的協調 大家是不是同意要編訂預算往前走 不是說我今天說喔 這樣做就這樣做的你可以先做好你的配套啊 然後去說服其他部會啊你上次也說 你不反對全面禁止廚餘啊你們的態度都是模擬兩可 都變來變去我們有一些原則在做這個事情的 那我再問你那個我們的環境部彭部長你支不支持全面禁止廚餘\n1046244\t1063785\t我是支持 但是有一個情況包括委員廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題那我就在告訴你廚餘的去化有很多種的方法但是時間上現在來不及委員現在來不及一兩年內所以你回答的跟你做的我覺得沒有產生高度的連結委員不能這樣說\n1065006\t1087827\t你就會好好去規劃完全禁止出於應該是什麼路徑我要採購哪些設備哪些是可行的方法就會一直往那個方向去推進委員這個是有一個時間劇烈的去進行 我想今天的質詢我是告訴部會喔就是你們的立場政策要夠明確然後你的路徑才會清楚然後地方的縣市也才可以好好的配合 以上謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們是不是請環境部彭部長還有農業部的黃次長上台請部長跟次長\n部長次長好我現在手上這邊有一份是我們中央災害應變中心非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心33次的會議記錄那這個是114年5月16號星期五下午3點召開的請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議部長你有參加嗎沒有\n你沒有參加 環境部誰參加沒有派員嗎應該是我們劉副組長只是副組長參加農業部這個是陳指揮官 俊記主持農業部 那次長你有參加嗎\n没有好我要问的就是在这一场会议当中其实有一个很重要的防疫的决定就是他说请环境部环管署及农业部这个畜牧师针对200头以上厨艺养猪场持续查核加强集合落实厨余确实经高温蒸煮\n從5月16號開完會到這個爆發了非洲豬瘟請問這四個月當中你們真的有落實去查核嗎去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮都有90度持續一個小時嗎如果有查核紀錄報告請現在跟大家做說明\n報告委員 這個茶盒是地方環保局要去茶盒那我們是負責積茶我們是積茶3%左右的量那這個是地方環保局因為這個養豬飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的所以是地方政府要做這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄\n環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的一個加強稽核的目標也就是說中央有這個稽核的責任那我就再問這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎有派員 地方有參加嗎\n報告委員 我們這個其實在珍珠的這個調路我們每天每個月都有一個完全的清單這個部長你聽我講齁我今天要表達的就是非洲出溫中央在害應變中心有開會也知道說高溫珍珠是防疫的重中之重而且也清楚展明在第33次的會議紀錄裡面\n那今天爆發出來就代表有開會但是沒有貫徹執行中央也沒有貫徹督導所以我要問的是請問開完會之後你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達\n然後督導然後真的有到場去看有沒有就近去看這樣的一個完整的你們的督導的記錄 集合的記錄我覺得應該要完整的呈現出來才知道說這一次為什麼有開會但是沒有效果還是爆發了為什麼會是這樣子呢\n來 請說你們做了什麼你們這當中做了什麼農業部做了什麼 環管署又做了什麼會議記錄是這樣子講的喔如果你們真的有徹底的一場一場針對這個沒有達到百分之百的一場一場去看的話那可能就會提早發現問題\n來 包委員 這一個會議是例行性的會議那每逢重大節日 尤其例如端午中秋之前這個都會有陳部長召集相關的單位去開這個會議那這個應該是在端午節之前開的那這次會議裡面講的集合就是我們講的這一套制度\n我們要去 加強集合就是要加強頻率你們有嗎有 當然有好 夠述本席你們加強了多少次這四個月當中你們集合的頻率增加了多少每一個月我們都會去集合出來申報有短缺的那我們就花文給\n這個地方政府請他前去稽查我們稽核的是這一塊同時我們會在這裡面他們稽查過的抽3%你那個是例行性的 你的加強強化在哪裡嘛這個就是強化在其實平常都強化他只是提醒啦我們強化 平常是平常強化就是要增加頻率跟次數不要在那邊講這一些文字遊戲喔我今天要指出來的就是你們就是沒有到位嘛\n會只是形式的開玩而已嗎各部會有用心去好好督導跟查核嗎因為之前這個坦白講大家就是心態鬆散因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟所以行李如意的開玩會根本沒有加強的措施也沒有強化的措施剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的所謂的強化就是頻率要增加你增加多少頻率提高了50%還是60%\n請說明 以5到9月我們每一個月都有清查出來那些所以相較於去年你的頻率是提高了多少這個 不是 他提醒的是應該是你一個月查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給那這麼怎麼叫加強\n你文字沒有看清楚嗎 連環管署自己的會議記錄都看不清楚派的成績那麼低 只是副組長連署長自己都沒去 副署長也沒有去有重視嗎 人家指揮官是陳部長欸你環境部才派的成績是誰你們有相對重視這件事情嗎有 有十二指等的副署長\n有12職等的副組長 你剛剛是說副組長副組長那回去你們有強化什麼措施針對各縣市的環保局你們是怎麼個督導法怎麼的加強集合今天我要揪出這個問題就是不要只是形式主義\n會只是這樣子開所以有沒有開會有都有開會開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行沒有你們剛講的那一套就是你的SOP就是平常這樣那開什麼會叫加強集合根本就沒有加強這兩個字嘛你們是按照平常的集合才會出現這樣的情況嘛另外一個我要指出來的是在這一份會議紀錄裡面農業部你們對於這一些\n廚餘廠你到底是要禁止還是要開放你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說還有新增\n之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要強化這一些廚藝場的管理結果呢你不減反增什麼三年內還出現31間新設的廚藝養豬場你在政策上面你沒有關門他只要來申請還是可以繼續就是用廚藝養豬那你政策到底是怎麼去執行的你199頭以下你是全部禁用那你不是慢慢走向落日你還開放新增的\n我們目前在整個政策上面確實是往輔導他往他退場的方向來走 但是我們並沒有去做禁止的這樣的 那你這是什麼政策啊從2000多場到目前為止已經降下來到400多場那我們未來的方向還是希望持續在以政策的鼓勵那怎麼可能會有新設的呢\n法律上面並沒有禁止所以你的政策就不明確啊目前是沒有完全禁止這樣的一個部分你們也沒有想要禁止嘛如果政策是要走向禁止就不應該有新設啊那就是一個落日的概念啊讓他慢慢就是有一些他就自動不來設計如果政策面將來要有一個落日的這個訂定的話那就會有這樣的一個限制\n那所以這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了我要問你的是那這段期間如果還有人要持續用廚藝養豬來新設你們還是會同意嗎目前來說的話我們已經表達非常清楚了那除非達到了那個我們的監控還有持續監管的這個三個條件能夠滿足我們還有法規的這個配適能夠滿足我們才會再來看這個開放廚藝這個事情否則在目前非洲豬瘟的這個疫情還在的這個現況裡面我們目前是不會去開放廚藝的\n那如果有新設的符合標準也讓他設嗎目前不可能讓他有這個新設因為目前就是已經禁止使用廚餘這樣的一個禁令所以我要點出來的問題就是你農業部的政策不夠明確嘛你從當時要嚴禁然後希望這個廚餘可以慢慢落日結果你中間還讓有一些新設的廚餘廠還是繼續可以新設你這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的你知道嗎\n所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明就像我們一直在問說到底要不要完全禁止廚藥你們就是不敢講曖昧 模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看\n現在的這一些為什麼廚餘養豬其實有那麼多的漏洞你們真的覺得只有台中這一場是這樣子嗎實務上真的是這樣子嗎就已經有人點出來了就是市場那個整個徵主的過程是非常的繁複的如果大家有去看這個是沒一起去拍的你真的要做到好你知道他要花的時間\n跟燃料費跟溫度待他冷卻到破碎那個工法坦白講是反覆的有媒體去拍嗎你光加熱你這種10噸的廚藝煮沸要2到3個小時冬天的話可能要到5個小時那煮沸之後還要等他冷卻靜置可能是要整個晚上然後之後才需要再攪拌然後才可以再給豬吃\n我今天要問的就是到目前為止你有77家就是申報率低於90%的請問這77家他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎因為坊間都有人講說\n根本要做到這樣子有一些他設備各方面功能沒有那麼完整的他還是會討價保就像台中的這一場他壞掉他可能沒有修然後他冷的他直接就這樣推進去給豬吃人家也不知道相片也不見得是即時的相片看到相片你也不知道溫度是90度\n所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下\n報告委員 這個我們上次報告都說得很清楚我們有新的設備 新的做法如果還要整組要用的話我們又有新的方式來做監控那第二個呢 是這個工作是地方環保局要去第一線聚合因為這個許可證是他們發的當然我們會去聚合他 妳要督導啊當然督導啊整個非洲豬人的中央災害應變中心不是你們中央部會再開的嗎\n我們在督導 他們有在參加對啊 所以你們要督導啊你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛我剛剛給你看的就是從五月份到九月份你們督導了什麼 你們集合了什麼我們有督導啊那你應該事先就要發現啊我們早就發現了啊早就發現 幾月份來 部長說 部長說早就發現我們發現他不確實就告訴他你一定要去 幾月份爆發非洲豬瘟之前\n他其實5月7月我們每個月每個月都發議場所以每個月都發函給他要去稽查要去稽查恰西那家恰西那家都有讓他知道那你為什麼不要親自中央就帶隊到現場去呢嚴格的查核呢這是地方的事務地方去督導中央要卸責嗎\n我沒有卸責 我們制度可以改善所以你一直講說地方的責任 那就是想中央卸責嗎沒有卸責中央跟地方都有責任不是只有地方的責任中央督導不周當然也有責任所以這件事情我要講的是我必須說實話 其他家 中部有很多其他家像彰化 我們也同樣的幾家 他們都有去查核部長你要保證這70幾家現在都沒有問題申報率沒有百分之百的你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎\n現在沒有了 現在每一家珍珠的這個已經到第三輪的去檢測現在是沒有問題的 百分之百了現在沒有啊 現在沒有問題 因為現在靜養了 我們還是去去稽查它有沒有去處理味足所以按照你們的掛保證 台灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了這個我們不是這個專業 但是這個目前的這個規定你不是說百分之百珍珠嗎\n現在沒有在徵阻這個事啦但是我們去集合看他有沒有在徵阻那未來還會徵阻啊因為你們現在沒有禁啊這個不知道這個不知道你們還要推這個就是很矛盾委員 這個我們上次說得很清楚如果要徵阻有三個條件我們環境部負責的是徵阻必須要自動化的即時監測這是一個必要的條件所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了你的那個即時化的監測你真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎\n即時化的監測溫度還包含的CCTV直接可以看得清楚這是我們目前可以做的那你就可以確保是百分之百的增組我們是希望我現在要告訴你的是夏業我們看到的是其實有更先進更科技的做法對這個我們都知道這個我們都知道那你應該往這個方向去研議啊結果你們現在是在增組設備去加裝什麼你要百分之百的監控但是又做不到位那像這個有這麼好的model在這邊\n這樣子的一個model然後其他的model你只要增加設備跟技術你可以很快的轉型而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的這件事情這個也是我們希望要到的目標那我就問你你這一個具體的規劃是什麼你預計要設多少的廠來消化你現在沒有辦法去化的廚餘這個我們內部都已經在討論完成那但是這個東西必須要什麼時候要提出來\n我現在不能回答 這個是行政院整個規劃的就是你們正向衛民嘛沒有衛民 這個很清楚這個院長說了三個這個原則必須遵守條件然後法規 查驗等等這個按照這個原則我們就可以往下走\n那未來的規劃你那個路線跟這是不一樣的你知道你在說什麼嗎我當然知道啊這個珍珠這個是另外一條線這個不是馬上就可以好這個也要一兩年一段時間那你有在規劃嗎當然在規劃了啊那我要問你你這個規劃期程是什麼這個規劃也要經費也要大院來支持我們現在在規劃了\n但是你們如果積極去規劃你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃沒有沒有 委員我們早就在這個路線在走了你現在是去裝那個監視器嘛你現在是在忙著要加裝很多監視器委員我上次的報告說得很清楚有監視器未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來了你沒有具體啊我現在要問的是你具體像類似這樣子先進的科技它就可以把它轉換成是一個好的肥料跟飼料這個機器設備你要採購幾台然後哪一些縣市要布\n這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點你都沒有你都是空的我沒有沒有委員我不是空的我們早就準備好了一個月提出來委員沒辦法你已經準備好了我們還在做疫情的不是空的又提不出來部長這個不是在延遲的狡辯我們是做事的不是說的所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚但是這個部分我必須院內要核定要院長來核定我們必須要尊重整個你說你好了\n我們規劃往那個方式去做你規劃出來了我們現在在處理這個疫情那又要處理中長期的問題那你就說你還沒有規劃好你一下子就說你規劃好了我沒有說我規劃好您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向所以你還沒規劃嘛我要求就是你們這個應該要有更具體的圖像 路徑你到底要準備怎麼做你們現在是空的嘛\n委員 如果在政府機關做事 我有一個想法要經過一個跨部會的協調 大家是不是同意要編訂預算往前走 不是說我今天說喔 這樣做就這樣做的你可以先做好你的配套啊 然後去說服其他部會啊你上次也說 你不反對全面禁止廚餘啊你們的態度都是模擬兩可 都變來變去我們有一些原則在做這個事情的 那我再問你那個我們的環境部彭部長你支不支持全面禁止廚餘\n我是支持 但是有一個情況包括委員廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題那我就在告訴你廚餘的去化有很多種的方法但是時間上現在來不及委員現在來不及一兩年內所以你回答的跟你做的我覺得沒有產生高度的連結委員不能這樣說\n你就會好好去規劃完全禁止出於應該是什麼路徑我要採購哪些設備哪些是可行的方法就會一直往那個方向去推進委員這個是有一個時間劇烈的去進行 我想今天的質詢我是告訴部會喔就是你們的立場政策要夠明確然後你的路徑才會清楚然後地方的縣市也才可以好好的配合 以上謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.894 --> 00:17.399\n謝謝主席我們是不是請環境部彭部長還有農業部的黃次長上台請部長跟次長\n\n00:19.390 --> 00:46.538\n部長次長好我現在手上這邊有一份是我們中央災害應變中心非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心33次的會議記錄那這個是114年5月16號星期五下午3點召開的請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議部長你有參加嗎沒有\n\n00:48.188 --> 00:59.411\n你沒有參加環境部誰參加沒有派員嗎應該是我們劉副組長只是副組長參加農業部這個是陳指揮官俊記主持農業部那次長你有參加嗎\n\n01:08.479 --> 01:37.237\n没有好我要问的就是在这一场会议当中其实有一个很重要的防疫的决定就是他说请环境部环管署及农业部这个畜牧师针对200头以上厨艺养猪场持续查核加强集合落实厨余确实经高温蒸煮\n\n01:39.235 --> 02:06.828\n從5月16號開完會到這個爆發了非洲豬瘟請問這四個月當中你們真的有落實去查核嗎去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮都有90度持續一個小時嗎如果有查核紀錄報告請現在跟大家做說明\n\n02:07.677 --> 02:24.234\n報告委員這個茶盒是地方環保局要去茶盒那我們是負責積茶我們是積茶3%左右的量那這個是地方環保局因為這個養豬飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的所以是地方政府要做這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄\n\n02:25.855 --> 02:44.634\n環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的一個加強稽核的目標也就是說中央有這個稽核的責任那我就再問這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎有派員地方有參加嗎\n\n02:46.141 --> 03:09.568\n報告委員我們這個其實在珍珠的這個調路我們每天每個月都有一個完全的清單這個部長你聽我講齁我今天要表達的就是非洲出溫中央在害應變中心有開會也知道說高溫珍珠是防疫的重中之重而且也清楚展明在第33次的會議紀錄裡面\n\n03:11.829 --> 03:27.846\n那今天爆發出來就代表有開會但是沒有貫徹執行中央也沒有貫徹督導所以我要問的是請問開完會之後你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達\n\n03:29.347 --> 03:50.449\n然後督導然後真的有到場去看有沒有就近去看這樣的一個完整的你們的督導的記錄集合的記錄我覺得應該要完整的呈現出來才知道說這一次為什麼有開會但是沒有效果還是爆發了為什麼會是這樣子呢\n\n03:52.643 --> 04:08.552\n來請說你們做了什麼你們這當中做了什麼農業部做了什麼環管署又做了什麼會議記錄是這樣子講的喔如果你們真的有徹底的一場一場針對這個沒有達到百分之百的一場一場去看的話那可能就會提早發現問題\n\n04:10.101 --> 04:32.560\n來包委員這一個會議是例行性的會議那每逢重大節日尤其例如端午中秋之前這個都會有陳部長召集相關的單位去開這個會議那這個應該是在端午節之前開的那這次會議裡面講的集合就是我們講的這一套制度\n\n04:33.180 --> 04:53.448\n我們要去加強集合就是要加強頻率你們有嗎有當然有好夠述本席你們加強了多少次這四個月當中你們集合的頻率增加了多少每一個月我們都會去集合出來申報有短缺的那我們就花文給\n\n04:55.008 --> 05:22.222\n這個地方政府請他前去稽查我們稽核的是這一塊同時我們會在這裡面他們稽查過的抽3%你那個是例行性的你的加強強化在哪裡嘛這個就是強化在其實平常都強化他只是提醒啦我們強化平常是平常強化就是要增加頻率跟次數不要在那邊講這一些文字遊戲喔我今天要指出來的就是你們就是沒有到位嘛\n\n05:23.082 --> 05:49.894\n會只是形式的開玩而已嗎各部會有用心去好好督導跟查核嗎因為之前這個坦白講大家就是心態鬆散因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟所以行李如意的開玩會根本沒有加強的措施也沒有強化的措施剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的所謂的強化就是頻率要增加你增加多少頻率提高了50%還是60%\n\n05:52.895 --> 06:11.724\n請說明以5到9月我們每一個月都有清查出來那些所以相較於去年你的頻率是提高了多少這個不是他提醒的是應該是你一個月查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給那這麼怎麼叫加強\n\n06:14.485 --> 06:33.772\n你文字沒有看清楚嗎連環管署自己的會議記錄都看不清楚派的成績那麼低只是副組長連署長自己都沒去副署長也沒有去有重視嗎人家指揮官是陳部長欸你環境部才派的成績是誰你們有相對重視這件事情嗎有有十二指等的副署長\n\n06:35.270 --> 06:51.925\n有12職等的副組長你剛剛是說副組長副組長那回去你們有強化什麼措施針對各縣市的環保局你們是怎麼個督導法怎麼的加強集合今天我要揪出這個問題就是不要只是形式主義\n\n06:53.446 --> 07:18.025\n會只是這樣子開所以有沒有開會有都有開會開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行沒有你們剛講的那一套就是你的SOP就是平常這樣那開什麼會叫加強集合根本就沒有加強這兩個字嘛你們是按照平常的集合才會出現這樣的情況嘛另外一個我要指出來的是在這一份會議紀錄裡面農業部你們對於這一些\n\n07:23.351 --> 07:26.837\n廚餘廠你到底是要禁止還是要開放你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說還有新增\n\n07:30.475 --> 08:00.035\n之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要強化這一些廚藝場的管理結果呢你不減反增什麼三年內還出現31間新設的廚藝養豬場你在政策上面你沒有關門他只要來申請還是可以繼續就是用廚藝養豬那你政策到底是怎麼去執行的你199頭以下你是全部禁用那你不是慢慢走向落日你還開放新增的\n\n08:00.735 --> 08:22.403\n我們目前在整個政策上面確實是往輔導他往他退場的方向來走但是我們並沒有去做禁止的這樣的那你這是什麼政策啊從2000多場到目前為止已經降下來到400多場那我們未來的方向還是希望持續在以政策的鼓勵那怎麼可能會有新設的呢\n\n08:23.283 --> 08:43.612\n法律上面並沒有禁止所以你的政策就不明確啊目前是沒有完全禁止這樣的一個部分你們也沒有想要禁止嘛如果政策是要走向禁止就不應該有新設啊那就是一個落日的概念啊讓他慢慢就是有一些他就自動不來設計如果政策面將來要有一個落日的這個訂定的話那就會有這樣的一個限制\n\n08:44.753 --> 08:55.919\n那所以這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了我要問你的是那這段期間如果還有人要持續用廚藝養豬來新設你們還是會同意嗎目前來說的話我們已經表達非常清楚了那除非達到了那個我們的監控還有持續監管的這個三個條件能夠滿足我們還有法規的這個配適能夠滿足我們才會再來看這個開放廚藝這個事情否則在目前非洲豬瘟的這個疫情還在的這個現況裡面我們目前是不會去開放廚藝的\n\n09:14.548 --> 09:40.666\n那如果有新設的符合標準也讓他設嗎目前不可能讓他有這個新設因為目前就是已經禁止使用廚餘這樣的一個禁令所以我要點出來的問題就是你農業部的政策不夠明確嘛你從當時要嚴禁然後希望這個廚餘可以慢慢落日結果你中間還讓有一些新設的廚餘廠還是繼續可以新設你這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的你知道嗎\n\n09:41.246 --> 09:58.335\n所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明就像我們一直在問說到底要不要完全禁止廚藥你們就是不敢講曖昧模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看\n\n09:59.595 --> 10:22.928\n現在的這一些為什麼廚餘養豬其實有那麼多的漏洞你們真的覺得只有台中這一場是這樣子嗎實務上真的是這樣子嗎就已經有人點出來了就是市場那個整個徵主的過程是非常的繁複的如果大家有去看這個是沒一起去拍的你真的要做到好你知道他要花的時間\n\n10:24.537 --> 10:52.827\n跟燃料費跟溫度待他冷卻到破碎那個工法坦白講是反覆的有媒體去拍嗎你光加熱你這種10噸的廚藝煮沸要2到3個小時冬天的話可能要到5個小時那煮沸之後還要等他冷卻靜置可能是要整個晚上然後之後才需要再攪拌然後才可以再給豬吃\n\n10:54.548 --> 11:06.300\n我今天要問的就是到目前為止你有77家就是申報率低於90%的請問這77家他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎因為坊間都有人講說\n\n11:15.595 --> 11:35.962\n根本要做到這樣子有一些他設備各方面功能沒有那麼完整的他還是會討價保就像台中的這一場他壞掉他可能沒有修然後他冷的他直接就這樣推進去給豬吃人家也不知道相片也不見得是即時的相片看到相片你也不知道溫度是90度\n\n11:37.142 --> 11:57.024\n所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下\n\n11:57.945 --> 12:19.142\n報告委員這個我們上次報告都說得很清楚我們有新的設備新的做法如果還要整組要用的話我們又有新的方式來做監控那第二個呢是這個工作是地方環保局要去第一線聚合因為這個許可證是他們發的當然我們會去聚合他妳要督導啊當然督導啊整個非洲豬人的中央災害應變中心不是你們中央部會再開的嗎\n\n12:19.642 --> 12:38.106\n我們在督導他們有在參加對啊所以你們要督導啊你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛我剛剛給你看的就是從五月份到九月份你們督導了什麼你們集合了什麼我們有督導啊那你應該事先就要發現啊我們早就發現了啊早就發現幾月份來部長說部長說早就發現我們發現他不確實就告訴他你一定要去幾月份爆發非洲豬瘟之前\n\n12:45.188 --> 13:00.822\n他其實5月7月我們每個月每個月都發議場所以每個月都發函給他要去稽查要去稽查恰西那家恰西那家都有讓他知道那你為什麼不要親自中央就帶隊到現場去呢嚴格的查核呢這是地方的事務地方去督導中央要卸責嗎\n\n13:02.023 --> 13:27.551\n我沒有卸責我們制度可以改善所以你一直講說地方的責任那就是想中央卸責嗎沒有卸責中央跟地方都有責任不是只有地方的責任中央督導不周當然也有責任所以這件事情我要講的是我必須說實話其他家中部有很多其他家像彰化我們也同樣的幾家他們都有去查核部長你要保證這70幾家現在都沒有問題申報率沒有百分之百的你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎\n\n13:28.351 --> 13:47.649\n現在沒有了現在每一家珍珠的這個已經到第三輪的去檢測現在是沒有問題的百分之百了現在沒有啊現在沒有問題因為現在靜養了我們還是去去稽查它有沒有去處理味足所以按照你們的掛保證台灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了這個我們不是這個專業但是這個目前的這個規定你不是說百分之百珍珠嗎\n\n13:48.790 --> 14:13.977\n現在沒有在徵阻這個事啦但是我們去集合看他有沒有在徵阻那未來還會徵阻啊因為你們現在沒有禁啊這個不知道這個不知道你們還要推這個就是很矛盾委員這個我們上次說得很清楚如果要徵阻有三個條件我們環境部負責的是徵阻必須要自動化的即時監測這是一個必要的條件所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了你的那個即時化的監測你真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎\n\n14:14.637 --> 14:41.749\n即時化的監測溫度還包含的CCTV直接可以看得清楚這是我們目前可以做的那你就可以確保是百分之百的增組我們是希望我現在要告訴你的是夏業我們看到的是其實有更先進更科技的做法對這個我們都知道這個我們都知道那你應該往這個方向去研議啊結果你們現在是在增組設備去加裝什麼你要百分之百的監控但是又做不到位那像這個有這麼好的model在這邊\n\n14:43.369 --> 15:09.019\n這樣子的一個model然後其他的model你只要增加設備跟技術你可以很快的轉型而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的這件事情這個也是我們希望要到的目標那我就問你你這一個具體的規劃是什麼你預計要設多少的廠來消化你現在沒有辦法去化的廚餘這個我們內部都已經在討論完成那但是這個東西必須要什麼時候要提出來\n\n15:10.200 --> 15:24.320\n我現在不能回答這個是行政院整個規劃的就是你們正向衛民嘛沒有衛民這個很清楚這個院長說了三個這個原則必須遵守條件然後法規查驗等等這個按照這個原則我們就可以往下走\n\n15:25.836 --> 15:41.255\n那未來的規劃你那個路線跟這是不一樣的你知道你在說什麼嗎我當然知道啊這個珍珠這個是另外一條線這個不是馬上就可以好這個也要一兩年一段時間那你有在規劃嗎當然在規劃了啊那我要問你你這個規劃期程是什麼這個規劃也要經費也要大院來支持我們現在在規劃了\n\n15:42.236 --> 16:11.753\n但是你們如果積極去規劃你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃沒有沒有委員我們早就在這個路線在走了你現在是去裝那個監視器嘛你現在是在忙著要加裝很多監視器委員我上次的報告說得很清楚有監視器未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來了你沒有具體啊我現在要問的是你具體像類似這樣子先進的科技它就可以把它轉換成是一個好的肥料跟飼料這個機器設備你要採購幾台然後哪一些縣市要布\n\n16:12.293 --> 16:34.839\n這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點你都沒有你都是空的我沒有沒有委員我不是空的我們早就準備好了一個月提出來委員沒辦法你已經準備好了我們還在做疫情的不是空的又提不出來部長這個不是在延遲的狡辯我們是做事的不是說的所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚但是這個部分我必須院內要核定要院長來核定我們必須要尊重整個你說你好了\n\n16:35.814 --> 16:58.010\n我們規劃往那個方式去做你規劃出來了我們現在在處理這個疫情那又要處理中長期的問題那你就說你還沒有規劃好你一下子就說你規劃好了我沒有說我規劃好您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向所以你還沒規劃嘛我要求就是你們這個應該要有更具體的圖像路徑你到底要準備怎麼做你們現在是空的嘛\n\n16:59.011 --> 17:24.525\n委員如果在政府機關做事我有一個想法要經過一個跨部會的協調大家是不是同意要編訂預算往前走不是說我今天說喔這樣做就這樣做的你可以先做好你的配套啊然後去說服其他部會啊你上次也說你不反對全面禁止廚餘啊你們的態度都是模擬兩可都變來變去我們有一些原則在做這個事情的那我再問你那個我們的環境部彭部長你支不支持全面禁止廚餘\n\n17:26.244 --> 17:43.785\n我是支持但是有一個情況包括委員廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題那我就在告訴你廚餘的去化有很多種的方法但是時間上現在來不及委員現在來不及一兩年內所以你回答的跟你做的我覺得沒有產生高度的連結委員不能這樣說\n\n17:45.006 --> 18:07.827\n你就會好好去規劃完全禁止出於應該是什麼路徑我要採購哪些設備哪些是可行的方法就會一直往那個方向去推進委員這個是有一個時間劇烈的去進行我想今天的質詢我是告訴部會喔就是你們的立場政策要夠明確然後你的路徑才會清楚然後地方的縣市也才可以好好的配合以上謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.894,"end":17.399,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是請環境部彭部長還有農業部的黃次長上台請部長跟次長"},{"start":19.39,"end":46.538,"text":"部長次長好我現在手上這邊有一份是我們中央災害應變中心非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心33次的會議記錄那這個是114年5月16號星期五下午3點召開的請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議部長你有參加嗎沒有"},{"start":48.188,"end":59.411,"text":"你沒有參加 環境部誰參加沒有派員嗎應該是我們劉副組長只是副組長參加農業部這個是陳指揮官 俊記主持農業部 那次長你有參加嗎"},{"start":68.479,"end":97.237,"text":"没有好我要问的就是在这一场会议当中其实有一个很重要的防疫的决定就是他说请环境部环管署及农业部这个畜牧师针对200头以上厨艺养猪场持续查核加强集合落实厨余确实经高温蒸煮"},{"start":99.235,"end":126.828,"text":"從5月16號開完會到這個爆發了非洲豬瘟請問這四個月當中你們真的有落實去查核嗎去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮都有90度持續一個小時嗎如果有查核紀錄報告請現在跟大家做說明"},{"start":127.677,"end":144.234,"text":"報告委員 這個茶盒是地方環保局要去茶盒那我們是負責積茶我們是積茶3%左右的量那這個是地方環保局因為這個養豬飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的所以是地方政府要做這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄"},{"start":145.855,"end":164.634,"text":"環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的一個加強稽核的目標也就是說中央有這個稽核的責任那我就再問這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎有派員 地方有參加嗎"},{"start":166.141,"end":189.568,"text":"報告委員 我們這個其實在珍珠的這個調路我們每天每個月都有一個完全的清單這個部長你聽我講齁我今天要表達的就是非洲出溫中央在害應變中心有開會也知道說高溫珍珠是防疫的重中之重而且也清楚展明在第33次的會議紀錄裡面"},{"start":191.829,"end":207.846,"text":"那今天爆發出來就代表有開會但是沒有貫徹執行中央也沒有貫徹督導所以我要問的是請問開完會之後你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達"},{"start":209.347,"end":230.449,"text":"然後督導然後真的有到場去看有沒有就近去看這樣的一個完整的你們的督導的記錄 集合的記錄我覺得應該要完整的呈現出來才知道說這一次為什麼有開會但是沒有效果還是爆發了為什麼會是這樣子呢"},{"start":232.643,"end":248.552,"text":"來 請說你們做了什麼你們這當中做了什麼農業部做了什麼 環管署又做了什麼會議記錄是這樣子講的喔如果你們真的有徹底的一場一場針對這個沒有達到百分之百的一場一場去看的話那可能就會提早發現問題"},{"start":250.101,"end":272.56,"text":"來 包委員 這一個會議是例行性的會議那每逢重大節日 尤其例如端午中秋之前這個都會有陳部長召集相關的單位去開這個會議那這個應該是在端午節之前開的那這次會議裡面講的集合就是我們講的這一套制度"},{"start":273.18,"end":293.448,"text":"我們要去 加強集合就是要加強頻率你們有嗎有 當然有好 夠述本席你們加強了多少次這四個月當中你們集合的頻率增加了多少每一個月我們都會去集合出來申報有短缺的那我們就花文給"},{"start":295.008,"end":322.222,"text":"這個地方政府請他前去稽查我們稽核的是這一塊同時我們會在這裡面他們稽查過的抽3%你那個是例行性的 你的加強強化在哪裡嘛這個就是強化在其實平常都強化他只是提醒啦我們強化 平常是平常強化就是要增加頻率跟次數不要在那邊講這一些文字遊戲喔我今天要指出來的就是你們就是沒有到位嘛"},{"start":323.082,"end":349.894,"text":"會只是形式的開玩而已嗎各部會有用心去好好督導跟查核嗎因為之前這個坦白講大家就是心態鬆散因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟所以行李如意的開玩會根本沒有加強的措施也沒有強化的措施剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的所謂的強化就是頻率要增加你增加多少頻率提高了50%還是60%"},{"start":352.895,"end":371.724,"text":"請說明 以5到9月我們每一個月都有清查出來那些所以相較於去年你的頻率是提高了多少這個 不是 他提醒的是應該是你一個月查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給那這麼怎麼叫加強"},{"start":374.485,"end":393.772,"text":"你文字沒有看清楚嗎 連環管署自己的會議記錄都看不清楚派的成績那麼低 只是副組長連署長自己都沒去 副署長也沒有去有重視嗎 人家指揮官是陳部長欸你環境部才派的成績是誰你們有相對重視這件事情嗎有 有十二指等的副署長"},{"start":395.27,"end":411.925,"text":"有12職等的副組長 你剛剛是說副組長副組長那回去你們有強化什麼措施針對各縣市的環保局你們是怎麼個督導法怎麼的加強集合今天我要揪出這個問題就是不要只是形式主義"},{"start":413.446,"end":438.025,"text":"會只是這樣子開所以有沒有開會有都有開會開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行沒有你們剛講的那一套就是你的SOP就是平常這樣那開什麼會叫加強集合根本就沒有加強這兩個字嘛你們是按照平常的集合才會出現這樣的情況嘛另外一個我要指出來的是在這一份會議紀錄裡面農業部你們對於這一些"},{"start":443.351,"end":446.837,"text":"廚餘廠你到底是要禁止還是要開放你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說還有新增"},{"start":450.475,"end":480.035,"text":"之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要強化這一些廚藝場的管理結果呢你不減反增什麼三年內還出現31間新設的廚藝養豬場你在政策上面你沒有關門他只要來申請還是可以繼續就是用廚藝養豬那你政策到底是怎麼去執行的你199頭以下你是全部禁用那你不是慢慢走向落日你還開放新增的"},{"start":480.735,"end":502.403,"text":"我們目前在整個政策上面確實是往輔導他往他退場的方向來走 但是我們並沒有去做禁止的這樣的 那你這是什麼政策啊從2000多場到目前為止已經降下來到400多場那我們未來的方向還是希望持續在以政策的鼓勵那怎麼可能會有新設的呢"},{"start":503.283,"end":523.612,"text":"法律上面並沒有禁止所以你的政策就不明確啊目前是沒有完全禁止這樣的一個部分你們也沒有想要禁止嘛如果政策是要走向禁止就不應該有新設啊那就是一個落日的概念啊讓他慢慢就是有一些他就自動不來設計如果政策面將來要有一個落日的這個訂定的話那就會有這樣的一個限制"},{"start":524.753,"end":535.919,"text":"那所以這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了我要問你的是那這段期間如果還有人要持續用廚藝養豬來新設你們還是會同意嗎目前來說的話我們已經表達非常清楚了那除非達到了那個我們的監控還有持續監管的這個三個條件能夠滿足我們還有法規的這個配適能夠滿足我們才會再來看這個開放廚藝這個事情否則在目前非洲豬瘟的這個疫情還在的這個現況裡面我們目前是不會去開放廚藝的"},{"start":554.548,"end":580.666,"text":"那如果有新設的符合標準也讓他設嗎目前不可能讓他有這個新設因為目前就是已經禁止使用廚餘這樣的一個禁令所以我要點出來的問題就是你農業部的政策不夠明確嘛你從當時要嚴禁然後希望這個廚餘可以慢慢落日結果你中間還讓有一些新設的廚餘廠還是繼續可以新設你這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的你知道嗎"},{"start":581.246,"end":598.335,"text":"所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明就像我們一直在問說到底要不要完全禁止廚藥你們就是不敢講曖昧 模稜兩可所以導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去我們接下來再繼續看"},{"start":599.595,"end":622.928,"text":"現在的這一些為什麼廚餘養豬其實有那麼多的漏洞你們真的覺得只有台中這一場是這樣子嗎實務上真的是這樣子嗎就已經有人點出來了就是市場那個整個徵主的過程是非常的繁複的如果大家有去看這個是沒一起去拍的你真的要做到好你知道他要花的時間"},{"start":624.537,"end":652.827,"text":"跟燃料費跟溫度待他冷卻到破碎那個工法坦白講是反覆的有媒體去拍嗎你光加熱你這種10噸的廚藝煮沸要2到3個小時冬天的話可能要到5個小時那煮沸之後還要等他冷卻靜置可能是要整個晚上然後之後才需要再攪拌然後才可以再給豬吃"},{"start":654.548,"end":666.3,"text":"我今天要問的就是到目前為止你有77家就是申報率低於90%的請問這77家他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎因為坊間都有人講說"},{"start":675.595,"end":695.962,"text":"根本要做到這樣子有一些他設備各方面功能沒有那麼完整的他還是會討價保就像台中的這一場他壞掉他可能沒有修然後他冷的他直接就這樣推進去給豬吃人家也不知道相片也不見得是即時的相片看到相片你也不知道溫度是90度"},{"start":697.142,"end":717.024,"text":"所以這一些你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位我今天要講的就是如果你現行的這個廚藝徵主制度還存在那麼多的漏洞你們沒有辦法做到百分之百那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備新的做法很好的做法趕快來替代我們來看一下"},{"start":717.945,"end":739.142,"text":"報告委員 這個我們上次報告都說得很清楚我們有新的設備 新的做法如果還要整組要用的話我們又有新的方式來做監控那第二個呢 是這個工作是地方環保局要去第一線聚合因為這個許可證是他們發的當然我們會去聚合他 妳要督導啊當然督導啊整個非洲豬人的中央災害應變中心不是你們中央部會再開的嗎"},{"start":739.642,"end":758.106,"text":"我們在督導 他們有在參加對啊 所以你們要督導啊你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛我剛剛給你看的就是從五月份到九月份你們督導了什麼 你們集合了什麼我們有督導啊那你應該事先就要發現啊我們早就發現了啊早就發現 幾月份來 部長說 部長說早就發現我們發現他不確實就告訴他你一定要去 幾月份爆發非洲豬瘟之前"},{"start":765.188,"end":780.822,"text":"他其實5月7月我們每個月每個月都發議場所以每個月都發函給他要去稽查要去稽查恰西那家恰西那家都有讓他知道那你為什麼不要親自中央就帶隊到現場去呢嚴格的查核呢這是地方的事務地方去督導中央要卸責嗎"},{"start":782.023,"end":807.551,"text":"我沒有卸責 我們制度可以改善所以你一直講說地方的責任 那就是想中央卸責嗎沒有卸責中央跟地方都有責任不是只有地方的責任中央督導不周當然也有責任所以這件事情我要講的是我必須說實話 其他家 中部有很多其他家像彰化 我們也同樣的幾家 他們都有去查核部長你要保證這70幾家現在都沒有問題申報率沒有百分之百的你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎"},{"start":808.351,"end":827.649,"text":"現在沒有了 現在每一家珍珠的這個已經到第三輪的去檢測現在是沒有問題的 百分之百了現在沒有啊 現在沒有問題 因為現在靜養了 我們還是去去稽查它有沒有去處理味足所以按照你們的掛保證 台灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了這個我們不是這個專業 但是這個目前的這個規定你不是說百分之百珍珠嗎"},{"start":828.79,"end":853.977,"text":"現在沒有在徵阻這個事啦但是我們去集合看他有沒有在徵阻那未來還會徵阻啊因為你們現在沒有禁啊這個不知道這個不知道你們還要推這個就是很矛盾委員 這個我們上次說得很清楚如果要徵阻有三個條件我們環境部負責的是徵阻必須要自動化的即時監測這是一個必要的條件所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了你的那個即時化的監測你真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎"},{"start":854.637,"end":881.749,"text":"即時化的監測溫度還包含的CCTV直接可以看得清楚這是我們目前可以做的那你就可以確保是百分之百的增組我們是希望我現在要告訴你的是夏業我們看到的是其實有更先進更科技的做法對這個我們都知道這個我們都知道那你應該往這個方向去研議啊結果你們現在是在增組設備去加裝什麼你要百分之百的監控但是又做不到位那像這個有這麼好的model在這邊"},{"start":883.369,"end":909.019,"text":"這樣子的一個model然後其他的model你只要增加設備跟技術你可以很快的轉型而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的這件事情這個也是我們希望要到的目標那我就問你你這一個具體的規劃是什麼你預計要設多少的廠來消化你現在沒有辦法去化的廚餘這個我們內部都已經在討論完成那但是這個東西必須要什麼時候要提出來"},{"start":910.2,"end":924.32,"text":"我現在不能回答 這個是行政院整個規劃的就是你們正向衛民嘛沒有衛民 這個很清楚這個院長說了三個這個原則必須遵守條件然後法規 查驗等等這個按照這個原則我們就可以往下走"},{"start":925.836,"end":941.255,"text":"那未來的規劃你那個路線跟這是不一樣的你知道你在說什麼嗎我當然知道啊這個珍珠這個是另外一條線這個不是馬上就可以好這個也要一兩年一段時間那你有在規劃嗎當然在規劃了啊那我要問你你這個規劃期程是什麼這個規劃也要經費也要大院來支持我們現在在規劃了"},{"start":942.236,"end":971.753,"text":"但是你們如果積極去規劃你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃沒有沒有 委員我們早就在這個路線在走了你現在是去裝那個監視器嘛你現在是在忙著要加裝很多監視器委員我上次的報告說得很清楚有監視器未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來了你沒有具體啊我現在要問的是你具體像類似這樣子先進的科技它就可以把它轉換成是一個好的肥料跟飼料這個機器設備你要採購幾台然後哪一些縣市要布"},{"start":972.293,"end":994.839,"text":"這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點你都沒有你都是空的我沒有沒有委員我不是空的我們早就準備好了一個月提出來委員沒辦法你已經準備好了我們還在做疫情的不是空的又提不出來部長這個不是在延遲的狡辯我們是做事的不是說的所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚但是這個部分我必須院內要核定要院長來核定我們必須要尊重整個你說你好了"},{"start":995.814,"end":1018.01,"text":"我們規劃往那個方式去做你規劃出來了我們現在在處理這個疫情那又要處理中長期的問題那你就說你還沒有規劃好你一下子就說你規劃好了我沒有說我規劃好您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向所以你還沒規劃嘛我要求就是你們這個應該要有更具體的圖像 路徑你到底要準備怎麼做你們現在是空的嘛"},{"start":1019.011,"end":1044.525,"text":"委員 如果在政府機關做事 我有一個想法要經過一個跨部會的協調 大家是不是同意要編訂預算往前走 不是說我今天說喔 這樣做就這樣做的你可以先做好你的配套啊 然後去說服其他部會啊你上次也說 你不反對全面禁止廚餘啊你們的態度都是模擬兩可 都變來變去我們有一些原則在做這個事情的 那我再問你那個我們的環境部彭部長你支不支持全面禁止廚餘"},{"start":1046.244,"end":1063.785,"text":"我是支持 但是有一個情況包括委員廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題那我就在告訴你廚餘的去化有很多種的方法但是時間上現在來不及委員現在來不及一兩年內所以你回答的跟你做的我覺得沒有產生高度的連結委員不能這樣說"},{"start":1065.006,"end":1087.827,"text":"你就會好好去規劃完全禁止出於應該是什麼路徑我要採購哪些設備哪些是可行的方法就會一直往那個方向去推進委員這個是有一個時間劇烈的去進行 我想今天的質詢我是告訴部會喔就是你們的立場政策要夠明確然後你的路徑才會清楚然後地方的縣市也才可以好好的配合 以上謝謝謝謝王玉明委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":736,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時30分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請環境部彭部長，還有農業部的黃次長上臺？"],["主席：請部長跟次長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長、次長好。我現在手上有一份非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心第33次會議紀錄，這個是114年5月16號（星期五）下午3點召開的，請問現場環境部跟農業部有誰出席了這場會議？部長，你有參加嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你沒有參加？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：環境部誰參加？沒有派員嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：應該是我們劉副署長。"],["王委員育敏：只是副……"],["彭部長啓明：他現在在應變中心。"],["王委員育敏：只是副組長參加？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：好。農業部，這個是陳指揮官駿季主持，次長，你有參加嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：沒有，好。我要問的就是，在這場會議當中其實有一個很重要的防疫決定，就是請環境部環管署及農業畜牧司針對200頭以上廚餘養豬場持續查核、加強稽核、落實廚餘確實經高溫蒸煮。從5月16號開完會到爆發了非洲豬瘟，請問這4個月當中，你們真的有落實去查核嗎？有去查核每一個用廚餘養豬的案場都有高溫蒸煮、都有90度持續1個小時嗎？如果有查核紀錄報告，請現在跟大家做說明。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個查核是地方環保局要去查核，我們是負責稽查，我們是稽查3%左右的量，這個是地方環保局……因為飼料養豬的許可是地方政府在發的，所以是地方政府要做。"],["王委員育敏：這個是中央災害應變中心的會議紀錄，環境部環管署跟農業部畜牧司要去達到這樣的加強稽核目標，也就是說，中央有稽核的責任。那我就再問，這個中央災害應變中心的會議地方政府有派員參加嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實關於蒸煮的調錄，我們每天、每個月都有一個完全的清單，哪一個縣市沒有到的話，都有給各縣市處理……"],["王委員育敏：部長，你聽我講，我今天要表達的就是非洲豬瘟中央災害應變中心有開會，也知道高溫蒸煮是防疫的重中之重，而且清楚載明在第33次的會議紀錄裡面，今天爆發出來，就代表有開會，但是沒有貫徹執行，中央也沒有貫徹督導。所以我要問的是，請問開完會之後，你們是怎麼樣跟地方政府傳達、督導，真的有到場去看？有沒有就近去看？你們督導的紀錄、稽核的紀錄我覺得應該要完整地呈現出來，才知道這次為什麼有開會，但是沒有效果，還是爆發了，為什麼會是這樣子呢？請說，你們做了什麼？你們這當中做了什麼？農業部做了什麼，環管署又做了什麼？會議紀錄是這樣子講的，如果你們真的有徹底地針對沒有達到100%的一場一場去看的話，可能就會提早發現問題。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，這個會議是例行性的會議，每逢重大節日，尤其例如端午、中秋之前，都會由陳部長召集相關單位去開這個會議，這個應該是在端午節之前開的。這次會議裡面講的稽核就是我們講的這一套制度，我們要去稽核……"],["王委員育敏：加強稽核就是要加強頻率……"],["顏署長旭明：對。"],["王委員育敏：你們有嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：當然，其實我們每一個月……"],["王委員育敏：好，告訴本席你們加強了多少次？這4個月當中，你們稽核的頻率增加了多少？"],["顏署長旭明：每一個月我們都會稽核出申報有短缺的，我們就發文給地方政府，請它去前去稽查。我們稽核的是這一塊，同時我們會在他們稽查過的裡面抽出3%來做複核。"],["王委員育敏：那個是例行性的，但你的加強、強化在哪裡？"],["顏署長旭明：這個就是強化，其實平常都有強化，而它只是提醒……"],["王委員育敏：平常是平常，強化就是要增加頻率跟次數，你不要在那邊講一些文字遊戲。"],["顏署長旭明：一樣的，我們每一個月……"],["王委員育敏：我今天要指出來的是，你們就是沒有到位，會議只是形式的開完而已，各部會有用心好好去督導跟查核嗎？坦白講，大家就是心態鬆散，因為之前已經有一陣子沒有出現非洲豬瘟，所以行禮如儀的開完會，根本沒有加強的措施，也沒有強化的措施，剛剛你講的那個都是平常要做的，所謂的強化就是頻率要增加，你增加了多少頻率？提高了50%還是60%？請說明。"],["顏署長旭明：以5到9月為例，我們每一個月都有清查出來哪一些申報有短漏的……"],["王委員育敏：所以相較於去年，你的頻率是提高了多少？"],["顏署長旭明：每個月去查跟每天去查還是一樣都發給……"],["王委員育敏：這怎麼會是加強？你文字沒有看清楚嗎？連環管署自己的會議紀錄都看不清楚，派的層級那麼低，只是副組長，連署長自己都沒去，副署長也沒有去，你們有重視嗎？人家指揮官是陳部長，你環境部派的層級是誰？你們有相對重視這件事情嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有、有、有，有十二職等的副署長。"],["王委員育敏：有十二職等的副署長？你剛剛是說副組長。"],["彭部長啓明：副署長。"],["王委員育敏：副署長？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["王委員育敏：回去後你們有強化什麼措施？針對各縣市的環保局，你們是怎麼個督導法、怎麼個加強稽核？今天我要揪出這個問題，就是不要只是形式主義，會議只是這樣子開，問有沒有開會，你們說：有、有、有，都有開會。開完會之後有沒有按照會議紀錄真的落實去推動跟執行？沒有！你們剛剛講的那一套就是你的SOP，平常就是這樣，那開什麼會叫做加強稽核？根本就沒有「加強」這兩個字嘛！你們是按照平常稽核的頻率才會出現這樣的情況嘛！","另外我要指出來的是，在這一份會議紀錄裡面，農業部對於這一些廚餘廠到底是要禁止還是要開放呢？你自己在會議紀錄裡面還說有新增的，之前蘇貞昌院長在的時候要求強化這些廚餘廠的管理，結果你不減反增，3年內還出現31間新設的廚餘養豬場，你在政策上面沒有關門啊！他只要來申請，還是可以繼續用廚餘養豬，那你的政策到底是怎麼去執行的？199頭以下你是全部禁用，但你並不是慢慢走向落日，甚至還開放新增的！"],["黃次長昭欽：我們目前在整個政策上面確實是輔導他往退場的方向走。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼會新增31間？"],["黃次長昭欽：但是我們並沒有去做禁止的……"],["王委員育敏：那你這是什麼政策？"],["黃次長昭欽：到目前為止，廚餘養豬場從兩千多場已經降下來到四百多場，我們未來的方向還是希望持續以政策來鼓勵……"],["王委員育敏：那怎麼可能會有新設的呢？"],["黃次長昭欽：法律上面並沒有禁止。"],["王委員育敏：所以你的政策就不明確啊！"],["黃次長昭欽：目前是沒有完全禁止這一個部分。"],["王委員育敏：你們也沒有想要禁止嘛！"],["黃次長昭欽：但是我們是希望他能夠往……"],["王委員育敏：如果政策是要走向禁止，就不應該有新設，那就是一個落日的概念，讓他慢慢的，就是自動……"],["黃次長昭欽：如果政策面將來要有一個落日條款的訂定，屆時就會有這樣一個限制。"],["王委員育敏：這一次已經爆發這麼嚴重了，我要問你的是，這段期間如果還有人要持續用廚餘養豬來新設，你們還是會同意嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：目前來說，我們已經表達非常清楚了，除非達到了我們監控還有持續監管的三個條件，還有法規的配適能夠滿足，我們才會再來看開放廚餘這個事情，否則在目前非洲豬瘟疫情還在的現況裡面，我們是不會去開放廚餘的。"],["王委員育敏：如果有新設的符合了標準，也會讓他新設嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：不可能讓他新設，因為我們目前就已經有禁止使用廚餘這樣一個禁令。"],["王委員育敏：所以我要點出來的問題，就是你農業部的政策不夠明確，從當時要嚴禁，希望廚餘可以慢慢落日，結果你中間還讓一些廚餘廠還是可以新設，這個政策本身就是完全矛盾的，你知道嗎？所以我覺得現在政府的問題就是你的政策走向不明，就像我們一直要問，到底要不要完全禁止廚餘？你們就是不敢講！曖昧！模稜兩可！導致現在你的政策該推動的都走不下去。","我們接著再繼續看，現在為什麼廚餘養豬有那麼多的漏洞？你們真的覺得只有臺中這一場是這樣子嗎？實務上真的是這樣子嗎？就已經有人點出來了，事實上，整個蒸煮的過程是非常繁複的，像這個是媒體拍的，若真的要做到好，要花的時間、燃料費、溫度的部分要待它冷卻到破碎等等，那個工法坦白講是繁複的，這有媒體去拍嘛！光加熱的部分，比方說煮沸10噸的廚餘，要兩到三個小時；冬天的話可能要到五個小時，煮沸之後還要讓它冷卻靜置，可能就要整個晚上，之後再予以攪拌，然後才可以給豬吃。我今天要問的是，到目前為止，有77家申報率低於90%的，請問這77家他們真的都照規矩來？他們真的都有按照你的SOP做到這麼完整嗎？因為坊間有人說，要做到這樣子的程度，像一些在設備等方面功能沒有那麼完整的，他還是會偷吃步，就像臺中的這一場，設備壞掉他可能沒有修；冷的廚餘就直接推去給豬吃，人家也不知道；提供的相片也不見得是即時的相片，而且看到相片你也不知道溫度是否為90度，所以你們的查核根本也沒有辦法完全到位。","我今天要講的是，如果現行的廚餘蒸煮制度還存在那麼多的漏洞，你們沒有辦法做到百分之百，那為什麼不趕快去思考有一些新的設備、新的作法或是很好的作法趕快來替代？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，上次報告都說得很清楚，我們有新的設備、新的作法，如果蒸煮還要用的話，我們又會有新的方式來做監控；第二個，這個工作是地方環保局要去做第一線稽核，因為這個許可證是他們發的，當然我們會去稽核他……"],["王委員育敏：你們要去督導啊！"],["彭部長啓明：當然要督導啊！"],["王委員育敏：整個非洲豬瘟的中央災害應變中心，不是你們中央部會在開的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們有在督導，他們有在參加啊！"],["王委員育敏：對啊！所以你們要督導啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們有督導啊！"],["王委員育敏：你們現在督導的責任就是不夠嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：可是他不確實……"],["王委員育敏：我剛剛給你看的，就是從5月份到9月份你們督導了什麼？你們稽核了什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我們有督導啊！"],["王委員育敏：那你應該事先就要發現啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們早就發現了啊！所以一直叫他要去……"],["王委員育敏：部長說早就發現了，是幾月份？"],["彭部長啓明：我們發現有不確實就告訴他一定要去……"],["王委員育敏：是幾月份？爆發非洲豬瘟之前？"],["彭部長啓明：其實5月、7月我們每個月都有發現異常，所以每個月都發函要他去稽查，都有讓他知道。"],["王委員育敏：那你為什麼不要中央親自帶隊到現場去呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是地方的事務，地方去督導……"],["王委員育敏：那中央要卸責嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有卸責！我們制度可以改善。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！你一直說地方的責任，那就是中央想卸責嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有卸責。"],["王委員育敏：中央跟地方都有責任，不是只有地方的責任，中央督導不周當然也有責任，所以這件事情我要講的是……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我必須說實話，中部有很多家，像彰化同樣的也有幾家，他們都有去查核。"],["王委員育敏：好，部長，你要保證這七十幾家現在都沒有問題，申報率沒有百分之百的，你們現在有派員實地去查看過嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：現在沒有了，現在每一家有在蒸煮的，都已經進到第三輪檢測了，而現在是沒有問題了。"],["王委員育敏：百分之百了？"],["彭部長啓明：現在沒有問題，因為現在我們還是去稽查他們的……"],["王委員育敏：所以按照你們的掛保證，臺灣不會再爆發非洲豬瘟了？"],["彭部長啓明：我們不是這方面的專業，但是目前的這個規定……"],["王委員育敏：你不是說百分之百蒸煮嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：現在沒有蒸煮這個事了，但是我們要去稽核看他有沒有再蒸煮。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！那未來還會蒸煮啊！因為你們現在沒有禁止啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個不知道！但是未來如果……"],["王委員育敏：不知道的話，你們還要推！那不是很矛盾嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有、沒有，委員，我們上次說得很清楚，如果要蒸煮有三個條件，我們環境部負責的是蒸煮必須要自動化的即時監測，這是一個必要的條件，所以跟過去的方法就不一樣了。"],["王委員育敏：你那個即時化的監測就真的確保這個就可以百分之百到位嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：即時化的監測溫度還包含CCTV直接可以看得清楚，這是我們目前可以做的。"],["王委員育敏：那你就可以確保是百分之百的蒸煮，你能確保嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望可以做到。"],["王委員育敏：我現在要告訴你的是，其實有更先進的做法。"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個我們都知道。"],["王委員育敏：那你應該往這個方向去研議啊！結果你們現在是在蒸煮設備加裝什麼百分之百的監控，但是又做不到位，像有這麼好的model在這邊，其他的model只要增加設備跟技術，就可以很快的轉型，而不是一直停留在廚餘養豬的事情上。"],["彭部長啓明：這也是我們希望的目標。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我問你，你這個具體規劃是什麼？你預計要設多少的廠來消化現在沒有辦法去化的廚餘？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們內部都已經討論完成，但是這個東西必須要整個行政院團隊……"],["王委員育敏：什麼時候提出來？"],["彭部長啓明：我現在不能回答，這是由行政院來整個規劃的。"],["王委員育敏：就是你們方向未明嘛！你現在沒有辦法規範……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有未明、沒有未明，這個很清楚，院長說了三個原則，必須落實蒸煮條件、法規以及查驗等等，按照這三個原則，我們就可以往下走。未來的規劃……"],["王委員育敏：你那個路線跟這是不一樣的，你知道你在說什麼嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我當然知道啊，蒸煮的部分是另外一條線，這不是馬上就可以好，這也要一、兩年以上的時間。"],["王委員育敏：那你有在規劃嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：當然在規劃了啊。"],["王委員育敏：那我要問你，這個規劃的期程是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：這個規劃也要經費，也要大院來支持，我們現在在規劃了。"],["王委員育敏：當然啊，但是你們如果積極去規劃，你要長出一個東西讓委員會來看嘛，但是我發現你們現在就是沒有往這個路線規劃……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，我們早就照這個路線在走了。"],["王委員育敏：現在是去裝監視器嘛，你現在是忙著要加裝很多監視器。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我上次的報告說得很清楚，有監視器，未來的規劃我都有提出我們的看法出來。"],["王委員育敏：你沒有具體，我現在要問的是具體的，像類似這樣先進的科技，就可以把它轉換成好的肥料跟飼料，這個機器設備你要採購幾臺，然後哪一些縣市要布？你未來的方向……"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們是從整個量上去做盤點。"],["王委員育敏：你都沒有，你都是空的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，我們不是空的，我們早就準備好了。"],["王委員育敏：那你提出來，一個月提出來，你已經準備好了？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，沒辦法，我們還在做疫情的處理。"],["王委員育敏：不是空的又提不出來，部長，這不是在言詞狡辯。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們是做事的，不是說的，所以我們必須把未來的狀況算清楚……"],["王委員育敏：是啊，那提出具體的計畫，提出來啊，你又說你好了。"],["彭部長啓明：但是這個部分必須院內要核定，要院長來核定，我們必須要尊重整個……"],["王委員育敏：你說你好了。"],["彭部長啓明：我們規劃往那個方式去做。"],["王委員育敏：你規劃出來了？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們現在在處理這個疫情，又要處理中長期的問題。"],["王委員育敏：那你就說你還沒有規劃好，你一下子又說你規劃好了，一下子又說……"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有說我規劃好，您說的這個方向都是我們想要做的方向。"],["王委員育敏：所以你還沒規劃嘛，我要求就是你們這個部分應該要有更具體的圖像、路徑，你到底要準備怎麼做，你們現在是空的嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，委員，在政府機關做事，如果我有一個想法，要經過跨部會的協調，看看大家是不是同意，要編訂預算才能往前走，不是說我今天要這樣做就這樣做。"],["王委員育敏：你可以先做好你的配套，然後去說服其他部會啊……"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在是這樣在做的。"],["王委員育敏：你上次也說你不反對全面禁止廚餘，你們的態度都是模稜兩可，都變來變去。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，我們有一些原則在做這個事情。"],["王委員育敏：那我再問你，我們的環境部彭部長，你支不支持全面禁止廚餘？"],["彭部長啓明：我是支持，但是有一個情況，報告委員，廚餘的去化是一個很大的問題，一天差500噸。"],["王委員育敏：我就再告訴你，廚餘的去化有很多種方法，你要具體去規劃。"],["彭部長啓明：但是時間上現在來不及，委員，現在來不及，一、兩年內……"],["王委員育敏：所以你回答的跟你做的，我覺得沒有產生高度的連結……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，不能這樣說。"],["王委員育敏：就是你如果真的下定決心，你就會好好去規劃，完全禁止廚餘應該是什麼路徑，我要採購哪些設備，哪些是可行的方法，就會一直往那個方向去推進。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這是有時間序列地去進行。"],["王委員育敏：今天的質詢我是告訴部會，就是你們的立場、政策要夠明確，你的路徑才會清楚，地方的縣市也才可以好好地配合。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員發言。","請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-8","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","劉建國","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","陳冠廷","涂權吉","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","陳瑩","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","盧縣一","牛煦庭","張智倫"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2025-11-05"],"gazette_id":"1149201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、內政部、農業部、交通部、行政院公共工程委員會就「非法棄置\n到城市採礦：檢討環境部環境管理署執法痛點與城市採礦推動策略」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、繼續審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育\n敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬\n具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音\n管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第\n二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第\n二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條\n條文修正草案」案；三、審查(一)委員林倩綺等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二條、第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正\n草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1149201_00003"}}}