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好吧那就是院長你做的第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了 請問院長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 232.952, \"end\": 233.092, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 233.092, \"end\": 233.192, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 233.192, \"end\": 233.292, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 233.292, \"end\": 233.412, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 233.412, \"end\": 233.532, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 233.532, \"end\": 234.013, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 234.013, \"end\": 234.153, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 234.153, \"end\": 234.253, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 234.253, \"end\": 234.373, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 234.373, \"end\": 234.473, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 234.473, \"end\": 234.993, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, 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{\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1834.676, \"end\": 1834.917, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 1834.917, \"end\": 1835.017, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 1835.017, \"end\": 1835.258, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 1835.258, \"end\": 1835.921, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1835.921, \"end\": 1835.941, \"score\": 0.002}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,940 --> 00:00:20,826\n好謝謝院長那我們麻煩行政院院長請卓院長\n\n2\n00:00:31,175 --> 00:00:53,750\n部委員好院長早安我想我今天問的問題其實都是老問題我今天不會做任何突襲性的問題我想這也是對行政院的尊重那我先想請教院長最基本的幾個問題第一個就是如果我們這陣子前陣子那個閃兵就是不想服兵這個問題\n\n3\n00:00:55,951 --> 00:01:22,110\n新聞報蠻多的嘛那我想請教一下如果有異男覺得兵役法這個制度這個法律違憲那限制他的人身自由自己就決定拒絕入伍請問一下院長這個有沒有問題他有沒有這個權利說因為我認為違憲我申請釋憲所以我現在拒絕入伍可以嗎中華民國憲法規定必須服兵役是國人應盡的義務所以\n\n4\n00:01:22,540 --> 00:01:49,231\n服兵役這件事情沒有違憲的空間不行這樣講喔有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算是大法官才可以說了算所以我請教您如果有藝男覺得兵役法違憲他認為限制了他的自由權利那這個時候他說我申請釋憲了要拒絕入伍請問院長可不可以我就跟委員把答覆過了依照中華民國憲法國人有服兵役的義務\n\n5\n00:01:50,151 --> 00:02:12,349\n所以服兵役這件事情很單純沒有違憲的空間委員不要用這件事情想要印證你不要用這件事情想要印證其他的事實院長我們不是大法官你不能說憲法規定在那裡所以他就是怎麼做就是可以或不可以你不是大法官嘛正常的情況是他申請釋憲之後\n\n6\n00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:37,928\n然後現在法庭大法庭他認為說這個東西沒有違憲對不對是這樣子才對嘛您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊所以你沒有給我答案好那我再問你第二個問題啦如果人民覺得納稅稅捐基金法違憲限制了他的財產的自由處分權請問一下他申請\n\n7\n00:02:39,369 --> 00:02:54,146\n稅捐基金法違憲之後可不可以就不繳稅請問一下據我所知稅捐基金法相關的規定你要申請任何的救濟應該要履行它必要的條件你還是沒回答我的問題啊我現在因為委員的問題現金很多\n\n8\n00:02:56,628 --> 00:03:12,367\n大高院長您也是法律系畢業的法律未接憲法法律命令我現在在跟你討論的是憲法未接你不要再跟我講法律未接的究竟好不好所以院長你不要在那邊誤導大家啦\n\n9\n00:03:13,268 --> 00:03:36,694\n我哪一件誤導大家我跟議長報告一件事我跟你說你不要誤導大家我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西你不要再跟我講稅宣激增法的究竟那個是法律層級好那我請教你還是這個問題你還是沒回答我如果人民認為稅法違憲他申請釋憲了可不可以就從此不繳稅請問一下院長可以或不可以請院長裁釋\n\n10\n00:03:38,235 --> 00:03:52,632\n繳稅也是一樣我們政府依法科徵人民稅各種的稅都是法律有依據的所以法律有依據的情況之下人民繳稅這也是一種義務院長我跟你講你現在講的東西全國很多法律人都在聽是啊\n\n11\n00:03:52,952 --> 00:04:20,205\n那你一定要把憲法我在跟你談憲法位階你一定要拉到法律位階好吧那就是院長你做的第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了請問院長\n\n12\n00:04:21,946 --> 00:04:44,057\n任何人被法律判決確定有罪那就是法律最後的定義謝謝院長一直在談法律那我也在你一直講法律對不對立法院三讀通過的也叫法律但是我今天看到有一位院長您剛剛一直說法律有規定所以人民必須遵守那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律你也不遵守啊\n\n13\n00:04:45,918 --> 00:05:04,975\n因為立法院通過的法律案預算案大幅增加行政院的稅數沒有徵詢行政院沒有指出這個資金的來源這個都違反了憲法跟預算法我一而再再而三提醒大院各位委員\n\n14\n00:05:05,896 --> 00:05:30,893\n吳委員你是法律出身你應該清楚你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧院長請你不要因為政治目的而不編列去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議立法院的議事錄記載的非常的清楚內政部警政署都有派員列席所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦不要再繼續騙了啦\n\n15\n00:05:32,674 --> 00:05:43,641\n你有沒有指出司機的來源你有沒有進行必要的修法都沒有啊跟院長說一下依據我國憲法訴訟法我想我們直接列訴訟法條文給院長好了啦\n\n16\n00:05:44,997 --> 00:06:10,747\n第52條違憲判決認定是違憲之前這個法律就是完全生效總統已經公布了完全升上行政院就必須依法行政行政院長沒有那種理由說我認為違憲所以我不做再來你上一次你跟張綺凱在那邊虧張綺凱說你是全中華民國第一個不懂申請四憲中的這個立法委員但我要跟您講\n\n17\n00:06:11,647 --> 00:06:30,264\n你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分不去適用這個法律但是依據憲法訴訟法43條它也是大法官的專屬權利請問院長一個沒有被憲法判定違憲的法律您就是有遵守的義務\n\n18\n00:06:31,405 --> 00:06:44,473\n一個已經生效的法律您就必須要遵守這個你也沒有暫時處分權為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分你為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法52條及43條為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分\n\n19\n00:06:46,773 --> 00:07:07,027\n是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎誰封殺大法官你們把人數砍成你們憲法訴訟法你們每一次大法官同意權不行使同意權讓他不通過不好意思那個報告主席我們時間先暫停不好意思我們彼此相互尊重也尊重委員資訊\n\n20\n00:07:08,388 --> 00:07:33,304\n院長不然這樣好不好我們現在我們我現在陪你嘛我們現在時間暫停我現在陪你到總統府去請命拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好我們現在去我陪你我們跟他請我們到總統府跟總統府拜託總統府不是我們想去就可以去請命請總統趕快提人選今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院你們現在本末倒置沒有提過兩次嗎\n\n21\n00:07:34,124 --> 00:07:55,577\n他提了兩次但人選有問題啊那你們為什麼要把法院人選設置成這個樣子讓大法官無法運作你講那個什麼話今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎總統提了什麼人選我只能橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎我們今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查\n\n22\n00:07:56,818 --> 00:08:24,173\n我的每一個我負責任的人我也實質的審查你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查出來的認為不合格的大法官我有錯聽我講這個話行事上有實質的審查事實上是黨議凌駕一切不是嗎你在那邊講那個什麼話那你今天民進黨全部都投同意那是不是也黨議凌駕他們都支持啊你可以這樣講嗎他們都支持啊院長院長我今天不來這邊跟你吵架你就是來吵架的我今天問的是\n\n23\n00:08:25,314 --> 00:08:47,179\n我今天問的是程序我講一個很簡單嘛憲法訴訟法52條43條明明白白的在那裡您就是一個違法的院長您的這個作為啊其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民你今天是委員不是檢察官你無權在這裡說誰違法不違法\n\n24\n00:08:48,939 --> 00:09:13,249\n我們今天三讀通過的法律你不依法執行你說過的啊你不依照憲法預算法大幅增加稅出沒有爭取行政院意見沒有指出稅金來源大法官OK好沒關係你今天要當大法官那你就去當你的大法官那我請教你你講了那麼久了那你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼來請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條哪一條不依法編列\n\n25\n00:09:13,973 --> 00:09:42,571\n不是啊你現在那個警察人員人事條例軍人待遇條例我說過了我們在4月27號已經刪除通過跟6月29號已經刪除通過行政院已經說過只要釋憲結果合憲我們就依法編列而且追溯如果違憲讓我們不編列如果我現在編了萬一違憲的話我變成違憲的院長我覺得齁您一直在兜圈子啦我講一個很簡單的沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕\n\n26\n00:09:43,712 --> 00:10:12,015\n依法行政我剛剛問你的那三個問題人民都沒有辦法因為申請失憲中而不去做這些國民的義務憲法規定的很清楚沒有違憲的空間你到現在還是告訴我不了我的法條到底依據是什麼我現在已經告訴你法條依據為何憲法訴訟法的依據為何但是偉大的行政院長你還是告訴不了我你的法律依據為何這個就是你不依法行政\n\n27\n00:10:12,856 --> 00:10:28,858\n全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎中華民國以前歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎每一任法律人都知道一句話你也是法律行政院的歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊二法議法對不對二法議法歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹承認你是二法嗎\n\n28\n00:10:30,585 --> 00:10:47,123\n惡法易法你覺得你是惡法嗎我沒有告訴你不是啦我認為惡法我們必須救濟我跟你講你不用在那邊耍嘴皮啦我說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法易法即使你今天再厭惡這個法律你也必須依法行政委員竟可以跟國民講惡法易法但是在行政院不能違憲\n\n29\n00:10:51,360 --> 00:11:14,951\n院長憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務你今天在違憲因為你今天把立法院三讀通過的法律你不依法執行這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制\n\n30\n00:11:18,536 --> 00:11:34,410\n請讓大法官來講這句話不要你自己下定論大法官就被封殺啦我剛剛已經跟你講我現在可以陪你到總統府去現在是總統不願意提大法官人選請他提出來搞不好他第三波提的東西我們都很第三波提的大法官人選我們都很喜歡\n\n31\n00:11:35,371 --> 00:11:53,348\n所以議法院不是總統府的立法局不是橡皮圖章我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核在人事同意權上總是黨議凌駕一切行政院負責好您的義務把事情做好依法行政我的義務就是守護憲法守護國家\n\n32\n00:11:55,714 --> 00:12:04,605\n但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制可以行政院說了算\n\n33\n00:12:05,737 --> 00:12:27,182\n沒有我說的算我等待大法官的解釋我沒有做定論我沒有做定論你有申請釋憲這個都沒有問題但是在大法官宣告違憲之前依據憲法訴訟法它就是一個有效必須遵循的法律但是你今天沒有這麼做很遺憾的\n\n34\n00:12:27,802 --> 00:12:42,399\n您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府長期私信於民您就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民\n\n35\n00:12:42,619 --> 00:13:01,537\n你是立法委員你不是檢察官你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法所以立法院三讀通過的法律我發現有一個院長不願意執行因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制然後我再告訴院長您一句話您今天說我不是檢察官不可以說你違法那我也反告訴您一句你不是院長你不可以說他違憲\n\n36\n00:13:02,625 --> 00:13:26,236\n我等待大法官的決定我沒有說他違憲不違憲大法官合憲我就編違憲我就不能編所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法52條非常清楚了嘛你剛這句話就是違反沒有啊你回去看把條文看清楚吧我跟你講這是一個法治國我們是法治國所以請依法行政結果我們連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做好吧\n\n37\n00:13:28,285 --> 00:13:48,737\n我也是無奈啦一個行政院卻不依法行政我跟您報告為什麼制度重要民主國家為什麼制度非常重要就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替政黨不停的輪替有不停的領導者領導的風格不一樣我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁所以我們有一個嚴格剛性的制度在那裡\n\n38\n00:13:49,477 --> 00:14:04,655\n不管誰執政都必須服從那個剛性的制度國家才不會大亂那今天如果說假設換了一個政黨執政假設民眾黨執政了貴黨如果立了一個服國立民的法律那民眾黨說我認為這個法律危險我不想做\n\n39\n00:14:05,556 --> 00:14:22,417\n我等釋憲啊那這樣子國家就大亂了所以憲法訴訟法它有一定的規範就是可以下暫時處分暫時不適用的是只有大法官可以再來大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前它就是一個生效的法律我們都必須要做\n\n40\n00:14:23,118 --> 00:14:46,715\n所以我在這邊跟院長報告如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度我在這邊剛已經把我國制度講完了那如果我在這邊講得那麼清楚您還是不認同或您用您的論述我在這邊跟...董法的人都非常清楚好沒關係這句話就你講你的我講我的啦我也跟您報告一件事我自己同學在大學當教授他之前還是研究所所長\n\n41\n00:14:47,455 --> 00:15:14,726\n他自己打電話跟我說現在院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象他們在憲法課程在講五權分立的時候在講權力分立原則的時候您是學生的負面教材您是學生拿出來說既然這個東西是不對這違反權力分立我們都是法律人您第一次我質詢您的時候我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大哥可以為我們國家好好的謀福利結果我今天看到的\n\n42\n00:15:15,146 --> 00:15:39,911\n您現在變成是法律系學生的一個嘲笑對象那如果院長您覺得你這個說法如果是有依據的話麻煩您可以發動學者來打臉我來打臉憲法訴訟法52條我都歡迎嘛但是當您講不出來只剩下就是講說我認為它違憲所以我可以不做完全違法憲法訴訟法52條違反43條法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場沒關係\n\n43\n00:15:44,633 --> 00:15:57,432\n您這樣講法以後人民只要覺得我哪一條我覺得違憲那我申請釋憲我就不做了因為我堅守憲法這是您的說法好謝謝院長你這就是誤導你用一個法律嘗試在誤導國人這個非常嚴重\n\n44\n00:16:01,189 --> 00:16:20,925\n你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做這非常嚴重歷史自有公斷沒關係我們就在這裡歷史自有公斷你也還年輕我們未來還很長歷史自有公斷憲法訴訟法我已經講完了清清楚楚條文在哪裡好那我再請教院長\n\n45\n00:16:21,866 --> 00:16:30,872\n那您竟然說認為大法官說核限之後你會回溯的去發放請問一下如果下個月\n\n46\n00:16:33,866 --> 00:16:54,764\n就說核限了那你們是要一次發還是分次發利息怎麼算我們可以先把預算準備好那希望能夠在核限的情況底下把財源找出來把預算準備好那能夠回溯能夠一次出發就一次發但是如果前提是如果這是違憲的我當然不能變\n\n47\n00:16:56,425 --> 00:17:19,854\n我現在發了如果他違憲我馬上變成違憲的院長不是嗎不是啦院長你又在亂講話了任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的你不要這樣亂講我剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法52條嘛任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前你所有作為都合法你所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長你不要\n\n48\n00:17:21,815 --> 00:17:42,964\n你不要這樣子說自己好不好這樣我聽了會不忍心啊你不是院長你沒有辦法了解我的心情我這樣聽了會不忍心你沒有辦法了解只要被大法庭申告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法合憲好不好謝謝院長那這樣子喔但是呢你明年你會你有沒有編一個貨有負債的準備啊貨有什麼\n\n49\n00:17:43,677 --> 00:18:02,099\n就是你現在說這筆錢那萬一下下個月說合憲了那你要怎麼來得及準備那我先把預算找出來啊如果這預算需要追加我就請說大院同意追加那同意之後我們就來編但這個前提是他必須是合憲的才有後續的這些討論\n\n50\n00:18:04,141 --> 00:18:19,802\n我剛已經講得非常的完整了我想我們今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述我想全國人民全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡當然院長您講的那句話沒錯大家叫你說要合憲不能違憲這話沒有錯\n\n51\n00:18:22,355 --> 00:18:38,872\n我也很認同您這句話但是在...委員我說一句話是否可以宣告違憲的人不是院長您啊您也有志於參選地方首長如果為了地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意你做何感想你這個要直接對外公告\n\n52\n00:18:39,953 --> 00:19:03,045\n你們要趕快做如果核限之後要怎麼分期有沒有利息怎麼樣入帳這個你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做而不要說等到那個宣告核限之後然後你就匆匆忙忙然後又搞不出東西來我是希望這樣因為我跟您說啦很多這些代退的人或退休的人其實他們這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用\n\n53\n00:19:03,585 --> 00:19:18,477\n譬如說他的醫藥費長輩的醫藥費等等的其實他們都很在意這件事情所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情第一個就是說你要公告追溯補回的SOP如果說合憲之後的追溯補回SOP是什麼\n\n54\n00:19:19,378 --> 00:19:46,658\n你不用很細項的講但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚讓人民能夠安心第二個開放權力名冊供個人能夠查詢自己因為上一次我有問過那個劉世芳部長他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用那是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定每個人都搞不清楚一直打電話來問也造成我的困擾\n\n55\n00:19:47,758 --> 00:20:10,276\n那當然我很願意幫民眾查詢可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道是不是可以麻煩你能夠請那個主管機關能夠趕快把這個系統建置起來讓個人能夠查詢他個人是不是符合申請的這個發放的這個資格好不好麻煩您真的有那麼一天那麼內政部跟所有的財政單位一定會把\n\n56\n00:20:10,916 --> 00:20:34,355\n程序跟預算準備好那下一個問題我想請問謝謝你下一個問題我還是想跟你請教一下就是說因為預算我們來看國家的預算其實國家預算一個餅就是這麼大塊那這個餅這麼大塊的情況下如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是我們某一個項目我們必須增加大量的預算的時候那勢必一定會去\n\n57\n00:20:34,955 --> 00:20:52,767\n一定會去侵害到其他我們原本需要支付的部分所以我自己看了一下我們的國防預算當然我完全認為要支持國防而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子因為我家老小都在台灣這塊土地上\n\n58\n00:20:53,487 --> 00:21:04,344\n也不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心但是我想請教您一個問題我看到2026年這國防預算再加一些特別預算加起來到9000多億對不對\n\n59\n00:21:08,532 --> 00:21:32,684\n這個東西如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊國家就收這麼多稅金那我想請教你你突然你在國防的部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下那我們要去從第一個當然就是用加稅的方式來解決嘛來補這個洞第二個可能就要從一些公共投資啦社福醫療教育等等的預算挪到國防\n\n60\n00:21:33,704 --> 00:21:52,371\n我想請問一下這個大量增加的國防預算我們要怎麼去支付這個錢我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%未來我們逐年朝5%來增加這個是基於兩個原因一個是國家財政的能力第二是國防的需求\n\n61\n00:21:53,411 --> 00:22:13,772\n那我們也沿走財政紀律所以未來勢必要如果這樣做的話勢必要調整支出結構對就是您剛講的嘛調整支出結構所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設社福醫療教育等等那一方面還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來但是這個部分你們要明確的告訴人民\n\n62\n00:22:14,312 --> 00:22:37,157\n我們大量的購買武器大量的支出國防預算甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%那算起來就相當於1.43兆那這個等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面那我不是說國防不重要國防非常重要但是我一直覺得說我們要強化國防這百分之百一定要的但是我們必須買\n\n63\n00:22:38,257 --> 00:22:56,502\n台灣是適合用的武器而且要買購這我絕對支持第二個我們要買能夠交貨的武器這是我認為我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法第一個買台灣適合用的武器而且要買購第二個要買會交貨的武器這個很重要那因為\n\n64\n00:22:57,762 --> 00:23:18,455\n等到2030年要大拉到GDP5要搞到1.43兆國家一半的錢都拿去國防一半沒有啦沒有到一半啦而不到一半啦當然你精算不到一半啦但是四成有吧那像這個狀況下你今天你要怎麼我說你必須你會排擠到其他的東西嘛但是上次沈伯陽委員\n\n65\n00:23:19,235 --> 00:23:47,661\n光是普發人民一萬現金這件事情要2400億他就說窮台了配合中國大陸解放軍要窮台要讓他們進攻台灣結果呢我們如果搞了1.43兆的話那這個會不會造成窮台其實我自己的擔心啊因為我剛講的自主防衛極端的重要我百分之百支持但是呢如果排擠掉讓台灣越來越窮我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望或我父母他們的醫療\n\n66\n00:23:48,941 --> 00:24:16,737\n能夠接受到醫療的品質越來越差或我小孩的受教越來越不行我是擔心這個點不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防其實沒有我積極的百分之百的認同要增加國防就像我剛講的軍人的薪水您知不知道軍人的薪水因為我們三讀通過之後軍校很多他們招生是滿編的都是創之前很多年來今年是招生狀況最好的\n\n67\n00:24:17,128 --> 00:24:26,316\n因為今年我們有增加了171億包括追加預算的60億在內增加了171億當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時其實\n\n68\n00:24:28,266 --> 00:24:54,189\n軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分今年我們增加了171億所以是不是我們增加軍人的薪水讓他們在國內交費刺激經濟更好而不是買爆武器那買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平其實我個人是質疑啦那您在這個院長的任內其實人家說您是史上最愛富裕的院長而且您的任內其實有四個特別預算同時在執行\n\n69\n00:24:55,510 --> 00:25:16,817\n之前已經規劃了現在在執行或是有在規劃中有四個其實我算了一下大概1.2到1.5兆之間其實還蠻驚人的所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包我們還知道一件事情就是說國家的預算如果你是用特別條例的方式去做的話特別預算的話因為他是借錢\n\n70\n00:25:18,217 --> 00:25:40,305\n你借錢是人民要還感覺是什麼就像我今天去吃喝玩樂結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳那我現在就擔心說請問一下這樣子狀況下你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的這個計畫我們每年依照最近的聖餘都必須依法來\n\n71\n00:25:42,301 --> 00:26:04,514\n返還債務這個都是依法在進行的所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務民能類是一定還不完所以我在這邊跟院長報告當我們對於我們的軍公教警消他們的待遇他們的退休金我們這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候但是我們對於國外採購的武器他遲不交貨\n\n72\n00:26:07,706 --> 00:26:25,222\n這個東西你們卻束手無策或者是我們今天一個前件也是一直沒有達到他交件的這個期程其實我們是很難過因為這每一筆都是幾千億百億千億的事情那這個東西大家好像不是很在乎可是對於我國的軍公教我們卻一再的跟他這樣子計較\n\n73\n00:26:27,364 --> 00:26:42,278\n我想院長你還是要特別注意我們當然在乎啊我跟委員說我們第一個考慮是財政的能力第二個考慮是國防的需求就是在財政永續世代正義跟國防實力底下我們依照這個財政紀律來考量\n\n74\n00:26:45,300 --> 00:27:02,452\n國防最重要的三個要素人、裝備、維護這三個東西我們考量的是整個國家的需求買爆武器、買爆維護但是人不夠不行啦國防有需要當然要武器啊您可以否認嗎我們現在軍方的邊線比狀況不佳您可以否認嗎\n\n75\n00:27:07,395 --> 00:27:11,160\n但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強我們必須增強實力很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認\n\n76\n00:27:21,758 --> 00:27:47,958\n三者必須均衡而不是國防的實力我看到的是什麼五萬塊買一張椅子一百二十塊買一瓶水那刪了五十億我們爆料出來了好才刪了這五十億但是這五十億其實拿來加薪有多好我跟你講啦就是說我還是一個想法啦國防我絕對支持啦但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰也不能帶來民生排擠更不能帶來國軍的受害我們的財政能力必須先考量\n\n77\n00:27:51,981 --> 00:28:08,173\n這很多的特別預算這個是債留子孫你也知道嘛你任內是還不完的這個會債留子孫包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎什麼包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見我現在在跟你談國防你跟我扯馬太安西你說我搞了很多特別預算啊\n\n78\n00:28:09,278 --> 00:28:31,831\n好啦隨便你啦因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題啦今天大家都有眼睛有耳朵我在跟你談國防的特別預算您再跟我談嘛你說我搞了很多特別預算啊要不要再談生育補助要不要再談租屋津貼\n\n79\n00:28:32,691 --> 00:28:57,303\n你說我搞了很多特別預算最後我想朱溫的問題我們還是要提一下朱溫的問題爆發之後其實我有提了幾個跟大家想法不一樣就是說我們發現其實邊境走私的數量查獲的數量我有去查過去10年其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入或者是自行申報或是被查獲\n\n80\n00:28:58,504 --> 00:29:22,697\n然後再來我們也發現一個狀況就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理這個也是一個很大的問題再來司法也嚴重的侵犯這個我都開過記者會把實際案例都提出來了所以現在一個問題這些東西其實是中央管當然不是都行政院但這些東西很多是中央管的可是今天我們看到爆發了這件事情結果台中盧秀恩院長他後來有出來\n\n81\n00:29:23,557 --> 00:29:41,893\n那個道歉而且有對幾個一級主管有下人事的命令那中央到目前為止似乎反正錯落地方然後就推給地方那我覺得反正民進黨常發生事情之後第一件事就是推責任千錯萬錯都不是我錯但是我想\n\n82\n00:29:42,974 --> 00:29:47,897\n時間不長了我提兩個東西部長我沒有問你問題時間暫停部長請尊重我在質詢的權利好嗎沒有問你問題我沒有問你問題謝謝部長部長我想兩大問題廚餘還有獸醫的問題廚餘的部分確實很難解決\n\n83\n00:30:05,586 --> 00:30:33,333\n那我也看到過去其實行政院農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察那日本他其實有一個環保飼料的做法當然他是不是適合我國我也想請大家看一下那再來就是獸醫的部分因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫其實就占我國獸醫的5.75%那是不是能夠增加一些誘因讓獸醫願意留下來為我們防疫盡力我想麻煩部長麻煩院長能夠參考\n\n84\n00:30:34,073 --> 00:30:35,941\n好謝謝兩位兩位辛苦了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15940\t20826\t好 謝謝院長那我們麻煩行政院院長請 卓院長\n31175\t53750\t部委員好 院長早安我想我今天問的問題其實都是老問題我今天不會做任何突襲性的問題我想這也是對行政院的尊重那我先想請教院長最基本的幾個問題第一個就是如果我們這陣子前陣子那個閃兵就是不想服兵這個問題\n55951\t82110\t新聞報蠻多的嘛那我想請教一下如果有異男覺得兵役法這個制度這個法律違憲那限制他的人身自由自己就決定拒絕入伍請問一下院長這個有沒有問題他有沒有這個權利說因為我認為違憲我申請釋憲所以我現在拒絕入伍可以嗎中華民國憲法規定必須服兵役是國人應盡的義務所以\n82540\t109231\t服兵役這件事情沒有違憲的空間不行這樣講喔有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算是大法官才可以說了算所以我請教您如果有藝男覺得兵役法違憲他認為限制了他的自由權利那這個時候他說我申請釋憲了要拒絕入伍請問院長可不可以我就跟委員把答覆過了依照中華民國憲法國人有服兵役的義務\n110151\t132349\t所以服兵役這件事情很單純沒有違憲的空間委員不要用這件事情想要印證你不要用這件事情想要印證其他的事實院長我們不是大法官你不能說憲法規定在那裡所以他就是怎麼做就是可以或不可以你不是大法官嘛正常的情況是他申請釋憲之後\n134130\t157928\t然後現在法庭 大法庭他認為說這個東西沒有違憲對不對 是這樣子才對嘛您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊所以你沒有給我答案好 那我再問你第二個問題啦如果人民覺得納稅 稅捐基金法違憲限制了他的財產的自由處分權請問一下 他申請\n159369\t174146\t稅捐基金法違憲之後可不可以就不繳稅請問一下據我所知稅捐基金法相關的規定你要申請任何的救濟應該要履行它必要的條件你還是沒回答我的問題啊我現在因為委員的問題現金很多\n176628\t192367\t大高院長 您也是法律系畢業的法律未接憲法法律命令我現在在跟你討論的是憲法未接你不要再跟我講法律未接的究竟好不好所以 院長你不要在那邊誤導大家啦\n193268\t216694\t我哪一件誤導大家我跟議長報告一件事我跟你說你不要誤導大家我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西你不要再跟我講稅宣激增法的究竟那個是法律層級好那我請教你還是這個問題你還是沒回答我如果人民認為稅法違憲他申請釋憲了可不可以就從此不繳稅請問一下院長可以或不可以請院長裁釋\n218235\t232632\t繳稅也是一樣我們政府依法科徵人民稅各種的稅都是法律有依據的所以法律有依據的情況之下人民繳稅這也是一種義務院長我跟你講你現在講的東西全國很多法律人都在聽是啊\n232952\t260205\t那你一定要把憲法 我在跟你談憲法位階你一定要拉到法律位階 好吧那就是院長你做的第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了 請問院長\n261946\t284057\t任何人被法律判決確定有罪那就是法律最後的定義謝謝院長一直在談法律那我也在 你一直講法律對不對立法院三讀通過的也叫法律但是我今天看到有一位院長您剛剛一直說法律有規定所以人民必須遵守那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律你也不遵守啊\n285918\t304975\t因為立法院通過的法律案預算案大幅增加行政院的稅數沒有徵詢行政院沒有指出這個資金的來源這個都違反了憲法跟預算法我一而再再而三提醒大院各位委員\n305896\t330893\t吳委員你是法律出身你應該清楚你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧院長請你不要因為政治目的而不編列去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議立法院的議事錄記載的非常的清楚內政部警政署都有派員列席所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦不要再繼續騙了啦\n332674\t343641\t你有沒有指出司機的來源你有沒有進行必要的修法都沒有啊跟院長說一下依據我國憲法訴訟法我想我們直接列訴訟法條文給院長好了啦\n344997\t370747\t第52條違憲判決認定是違憲之前這個法律就是完全生效總統已經公布了完全升上行政院就必須依法行政行政院長沒有那種理由說我認為違憲所以我不做再來你上一次你跟張綺凱在那邊虧張綺凱說你是全中華民國第一個不懂申請四憲中的這個立法委員但我要跟您講\n371647\t390264\t你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分不去適用這個法律但是依據憲法訴訟法43條它也是大法官的專屬權利請問院長一個沒有被憲法判定違憲的法律您就是有遵守的義務\n391405\t404473\t一個已經生效的法律您就必須要遵守這個你也沒有暫時處分權為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分你為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法52條及43條為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分\n406773\t427027\t是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎誰封殺大法官你們把人數砍成你們憲法訴訟法你們每一次大法官同意權不行使同意權讓他不通過不好意思那個報告主席我們時間先暫停不好意思我們彼此相互尊重也尊重委員資訊\n428388\t453304\t院長不然這樣好不好我們現在我們我現在陪你嘛我們現在時間暫停我現在陪你到總統府去請命拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好我們現在去我陪你我們跟他請我們到總統府跟總統府拜託總統府不是我們想去就可以去請命請總統趕快提人選今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院你們現在本末倒置沒有提過兩次嗎\n454124\t475577\t他提了兩次但人選有問題啊那你們為什麼要把法院人選設置成這個樣子讓大法官無法運作你講那個什麼話今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎總統提了什麼人選我只能橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎我們今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查\n476818\t504173\t我的每一個我負責任的人我也實質的審查你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查出來的認為不合格的大法官我有錯 聽我講這個話行事上有實質的審查事實上是黨議凌駕一切 不是嗎你在那邊講那個什麼話那你今天民進黨全部都投同意那是不是也黨議凌駕他們都支持啊 你可以這樣講嗎他們都支持啊 院長 院長我今天不來這邊跟你吵架你就是來吵架的我今天問的是\n505314\t527179\t我今天問的是程序我講一個很簡單嘛憲法訴訟法52條43條明明白白的在那裡您就是一個違法的院長您的這個作為啊其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民你今天是委員不是檢察官你無權在這裡說誰違法不違法\n528939\t553249\t我們今天三讀通過的法律你不依法執行你說過的啊你不依照憲法預算法大幅增加稅出沒有爭取行政院意見沒有指出稅金來源大法官OK好沒關係你今天要當大法官那你就去當你的大法官那我請教你你講了那麼久了那你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼來請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條哪一條不依法編列\n553973\t582571\t不是啊 你現在那個警察人員人事條例 軍人待遇條例我說過了我們在4月27號已經刪除通過跟6月29號已經刪除通過行政院已經說過只要釋憲結果合憲我們就依法編列而且追溯如果違憲讓我們不編列如果我現在編了 萬一違憲的話我變成違憲的院長我覺得齁 您一直在兜圈子啦我講一個很簡單的沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕\n583712\t612015\t依法行政 我剛剛問你的那三個問題人民都沒有辦法因為申請失憲中而不去做這些國民的義務憲法規定的很清楚沒有違憲的空間你到現在還是告訴我不了我的法條到底依據是什麼我現在已經告訴你法條依據為何憲法訴訟法的依據為何但是偉大的行政院長你還是告訴不了我你的法律依據為何這個就是你不依法行政\n612856\t628858\t全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎中華民國以前歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎每一任法律人都知道一句話你也是法律行政院的歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊二法 議法對不對 二法 議法 歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹承認你是二法嗎\n630585\t647123\t惡法 易法 你覺得你是惡法嗎我沒有告訴你 不是啦我認為惡法我們必須救濟我跟你講你不用在那邊耍嘴皮啦我說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法 易法即使你今天再厭惡這個法律你也必須依法行政委員竟可以跟國民講惡法 易法但是在行政院不能違憲\n651360\t674951\t院長 憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務你今天在違憲因為你今天把立法院三讀通過的法律你不依法執行這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制\n678536\t694410\t請讓大法官來講這句話不要你自己下定論大法官就被封殺啦我剛剛已經跟你講我現在可以陪你到總統府去現在是總統不願意提大法官人選請他提出來搞不好他第三波提的東西我們都很第三波提的大法官人選我們都很喜歡\n695371\t713348\t所以議法院不是總統府的立法局不是橡皮圖章我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核在人事同意權上總是黨議凌駕一切行政院負責好您的義務把事情做好依法行政我的義務就是守護憲法守護國家\n715714\t724605\t但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制可以行政院說了算\n725737\t747182\t沒有我說的算 我等待大法官的解釋我沒有做定論我沒有做定論你有申請釋憲 這個都沒有問題但是在大法官宣告違憲之前依據憲法訴訟法 它就是一個有效必須遵循的法律但是你今天沒有這麼做 很遺憾的\n747802\t762399\t您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府長期私信於民您就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民\n762619\t781537\t你是立法委員你不是檢察官你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法所以立法院三讀通過的法律我發現有一個院長不願意執行因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制然後我再告訴院長您一句話您今天說我不是檢察官不可以說你違法那我也反告訴您一句你不是院長你不可以說他違憲\n782625\t806236\t我等待大法官的決定我沒有說他違憲不違憲大法官合憲我就編違憲我就不能編所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法52條非常清楚了嘛你剛這句話就是違反沒有啊你回去看把條文看清楚吧我跟你講這是一個法治國我們是法治國所以請依法行政結果我們連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做好吧\n808285\t828737\t我也是無奈啦一個行政院卻不依法行政我跟您報告為什麼制度重要民主國家為什麼制度非常重要就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替政黨不停的輪替有不停的領導者領導的風格不一樣我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁所以我們有一個嚴格剛性的制度在那裡\n829477\t844655\t不管誰執政都必須服從那個剛性的制度國家才不會大亂那今天如果說假設換了一個政黨執政假設民眾黨執政了貴黨如果立了一個服國立民的法律那民眾黨說我認為這個法律危險我不想做\n845556\t862417\t我等釋憲啊那這樣子國家就大亂了所以憲法訴訟法它有一定的規範就是可以下暫時處分暫時不適用的是只有大法官可以再來大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前它就是一個生效的法律我們都必須要做\n863118\t886715\t所以我在這邊跟院長報告 如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度我在這邊剛已經把我國制度講完了那如果我在這邊講得那麼清楚 您還是不認同或您用您的論述我在這邊跟... 董法的人都非常清楚好 沒關係 這句話就你講你的 我講我的啦我也跟您報告一件事 我自己同學在大學當教授 他之前還是研究所所長\n887455\t914726\t他自己打電話跟我說現在院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象他們在憲法課程在講五權分立的時候在講權力分立原則的時候您是學生的負面教材您是學生拿出來說既然這個東西是不對這違反權力分立我們都是法律人您第一次我質詢您的時候我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大哥可以為我們國家好好的謀福利結果我今天看到的\n915146\t939911\t您現在變成是法律系學生的一個嘲笑對象那如果院長您覺得你這個說法如果是有依據的話麻煩您可以發動學者來打臉我來打臉憲法訴訟法52條我都歡迎嘛但是當您講不出來只剩下就是講說我認為它違憲所以我可以不做完全違法憲法訴訟法52條違反43條法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場沒關係\n944633\t957432\t您這樣講法以後人民只要覺得我哪一條我覺得違憲那我申請釋憲我就不做了因為我堅守憲法這是您的說法好 謝謝院長你這就是誤導你用一個法律嘗試在誤導國人這個非常嚴重\n961189\t980925\t你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做這非常嚴重歷史自有公斷沒關係我們就在這裡歷史自有公斷你也還年輕我們未來還很長歷史自有公斷憲法訴訟法我已經講完了清清楚楚條文在哪裡好那我再請教院長\n981866\t990872\t那您竟然說 認為大法官說核限之後你會回溯的去發放 請問一下如果下個月\n993866\t1014764\t就說核限了那你們是要一次發還是分次發利息怎麼算我們可以先把預算準備好那希望能夠在核限的情況底下把財源找出來把預算準備好那能夠回溯能夠一次出發就一次發但是如果前提是如果這是違憲的我當然不能變\n1016425\t1039854\t我現在發了 如果他違憲我馬上變成違憲的院長 不是嗎不是啦 院長你又在亂講話了任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的你不要這樣亂講我剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法52條嘛任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前你所有作為都合法你所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長 你不要\n1041815\t1062964\t你不要這樣子說自己好不好這樣我聽了會不忍心啊你不是院長你沒有辦法了解我的心情我這樣聽了會不忍心你沒有辦法了解只要被大法庭申告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法合憲好不好謝謝院長那這樣子喔但是呢你明年你會你有沒有編一個貨有負債的準備啊貨有什麼\n1063677\t1082099\t就是你現在說這筆錢那萬一下下個月說合憲了那你要怎麼來得及準備那我先把預算找出來啊如果這預算需要追加我就請說大院同意追加那同意之後我們就來編但這個前提是他必須是合憲的才有後續的這些討論\n1084141\t1099802\t我剛已經講得非常的完整了我想我們今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述我想全國人民全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡當然院長您講的那句話沒錯大家叫你說要合憲不能違憲這話沒有錯\n1102355\t1118872\t我也很認同您這句話但是在...委員我說一句話是否可以宣告違憲的人不是院長您啊您也有志於參選地方首長如果為了地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意你做何感想你這個要直接對外公告\n1119953\t1143045\t你們要趕快做如果核限之後要怎麼分期有沒有利息怎麼樣入帳這個你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做而不要說等到那個宣告核限之後然後你就匆匆忙忙然後又搞不出東西來我是希望這樣因為我跟您說啦很多這些代退的人或退休的人其實他們這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用\n1143585\t1158477\t譬如說他的醫藥費長輩的醫藥費等等的其實他們都很在意這件事情所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情第一個就是說你要公告追溯補回的SOP如果說合憲之後的追溯補回SOP是什麼\n1159378\t1186658\t你不用很細項的講但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚讓人民能夠安心第二個開放權力名冊供個人能夠查詢自己因為上一次我有問過那個劉世芳部長他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用那是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定每個人都搞不清楚一直打電話來問也造成我的困擾\n1187758\t1210276\t那當然我很願意幫民眾查詢可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道是不是可以麻煩你能夠請那個主管機關能夠趕快把這個系統建置起來讓個人能夠查詢他個人是不是符合申請的這個發放的這個資格好不好麻煩您真的有那麼一天那麼內政部跟所有的財政單位一定會把\n1210916\t1234355\t程序跟預算準備好那下一個問題我想請問謝謝你下一個問題我還是想跟你請教一下就是說因為預算我們來看國家的預算其實國家預算一個餅就是這麼大塊那這個餅這麼大塊的情況下如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是我們某一個項目我們必須增加大量的預算的時候那勢必一定會去\n1234955\t1252767\t一定會去侵害到其他我們原本需要支付的部分所以我自己看了一下我們的國防預算當然我完全認為要支持國防而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子因為我家老小都在台灣這塊土地上\n1253487\t1264344\t也不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心但是我想請教您一個問題我看到2026年這國防預算再加一些特別預算加起來到9000多億對不對\n1268532\t1292684\t這個東西如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊國家就收這麼多稅金那我想請教你你突然你在國防的部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下那我們要去從第一個當然就是用加稅的方式來解決嘛來補這個洞第二個可能就要從一些公共投資啦社福醫療教育等等的預算挪到國防\n1293704\t1312371\t我想請問一下這個大量增加的國防預算我們要怎麼去支付這個錢我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%未來我們逐年朝5%來增加這個是基於兩個原因一個是國家財政的能力第二是國防的需求\n1313411\t1333772\t那我們也沿走財政紀律所以未來勢必要 如果這樣做的話勢必要調整支出結構對 就是您剛講的嘛 調整支出結構所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設 社福 醫療 教育等等那一方面還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來但是這個部分你們要明確的告訴人民\n1334312\t1357157\t我們大量的購買武器大量的支出國防預算甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%那算起來就相當於1.43兆那這個等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面那我不是說國防不重要國防非常重要但是我一直覺得說我們要強化國防這百分之百一定要的但是我們必須買\n1358257\t1376502\t台灣是適合用的武器而且要買購這我絕對支持第二個我們要買能夠交貨的武器這是我認為我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法第一個買台灣適合用的武器而且要買購第二個要買會交貨的武器這個很重要那因為\n1377762\t1398455\t等到2030年要大拉到GDP5要搞到1.43兆國家一半的錢都拿去國防一半沒有啦 沒有到一半啦而不到一半啦當然你精算不到一半啦但是四成有吧那像這個狀況下你今天你要怎麼我說你必須你會排擠到其他的東西嘛但是上次沈伯陽委員\n1399235\t1427661\t光是普發人民一萬現金這件事情要2400億他就說窮台了配合中國大陸解放軍要窮台要讓他們進攻台灣結果呢我們如果搞了1.43兆的話那這個會不會造成窮台其實我自己的擔心啊因為我剛講的自主防衛極端的重要我百分之百支持但是呢如果排擠掉讓台灣越來越窮我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望或我父母他們的醫療\n1428941\t1456737\t能夠接受到醫療的品質越來越差或我小孩的受教越來越不行我是擔心這個點不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防其實沒有我積極的百分之百的認同要增加國防就像我剛講的軍人的薪水您知不知道軍人的薪水因為我們三讀通過之後軍校很多他們招生是滿編的都是創之前很多年來今年是招生狀況最好的\n1457128\t1466316\t因為今年我們有增加了171億包括追加預算的60億在內增加了171億當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時其實\n1468266\t1494189\t軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分今年我們增加了171億所以是不是我們增加軍人的薪水讓他們在國內交費刺激經濟更好而不是買爆武器那買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平其實我個人是質疑啦那您在這個院長的任內其實人家說您是史上最愛富裕的院長而且您的任內其實有四個特別預算同時在執行\n1495510\t1516817\t之前已經規劃了現在在執行或是有在規劃中有四個其實我算了一下大概1.2到1.5兆之間其實還蠻驚人的所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包我們還知道一件事情就是說國家的預算如果你是用特別條例的方式去做的話特別預算的話因為他是借錢\n1518217\t1540305\t你借錢是人民要還感覺是什麼就像我今天去吃喝玩樂結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳那我現在就擔心說請問一下這樣子狀況下你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的這個計畫我們每年依照最近的聖餘都必須依法來\n1542301\t1564514\t返還債務這個都是依法在進行的所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務民能類是一定還不完所以我在這邊跟院長報告當我們對於我們的軍公教警消他們的待遇他們的退休金我們這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候但是我們對於國外採購的武器他遲不交貨\n1567706\t1585222\t這個東西你們卻束手無策或者是我們今天一個前件也是一直沒有達到他交件的這個期程其實我們是很難過因為這每一筆都是幾千億百億千億的事情那這個東西大家好像不是很在乎可是對於我國的軍公教我們卻一再的跟他這樣子計較\n1587364\t1602278\t我想院長你還是要特別注意我們當然在乎啊 我跟委員說我們第一個考慮是財政的能力第二個考慮是國防的需求就是在財政永續 世代正義跟國防實力底下我們依照這個財政紀律來考量\n1605300\t1622452\t國防最重要的三個要素人、裝備、維護這三個東西我們考量的是整個國家的需求買爆武器、買爆維護但是人不夠不行啦國防有需要當然要武器啊您可以否認嗎我們現在軍方的邊線比狀況不佳您可以否認嗎\n1627395\t1631160\t但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強我們必須增強實力很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認\n1641758\t1667958\t三者必須均衡而不是國防的實力我看到的是什麼五萬塊買一張椅子一百二十塊買一瓶水那刪了五十億我們爆料出來了好 才刪了這五十億但是這五十億其實拿來加薪有多好我跟你講啦就是說我還是一個想法啦國防我絕對支持啦但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰也不能帶來民生排擠更不能帶來國軍的受害我們的財政能力必須先考量\n1671981\t1688173\t這很多的特別預算這個是債留子孫你也知道嘛你任內是還不完的這個會債留子孫包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎什麼包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見我現在在跟你談國防你跟我扯馬太安西你說我搞了很多特別預算啊\n1689278\t1711831\t好啦 隨便你啦因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題啦今天大家都有眼睛有耳朵我在跟你談國防的特別預算 您再跟我談嘛你說我搞了很多特別預算啊要不要再談生育補助 要不要再談租屋津貼\n1712691\t1737303\t你說我搞了很多特別預算最後我想朱溫的問題我們還是要提一下朱溫的問題爆發之後其實我有提了幾個跟大家想法不一樣就是說我們發現其實邊境走私的數量查獲的數量我有去查過去10年其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入或者是自行申報或是被查獲\n1738504\t1762697\t然後再來我們也發現一個狀況就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理這個也是一個很大的問題再來司法也嚴重的侵犯這個我都開過記者會把實際案例都提出來了所以現在一個問題這些東西其實是中央管當然不是都行政院但這些東西很多是中央管的可是今天我們看到爆發了這件事情結果台中盧秀恩院長他後來有出來\n1763557\t1781893\t那個道歉而且有對幾個一級主管有下人事的命令那中央到目前為止似乎反正錯落地方然後就推給地方那我覺得反正民進黨常發生事情之後第一件事就是推責任千錯萬錯都不是我錯但是我想\n1782974\t1787897\t時間不長了我提兩個東西部長我沒有問你問題時間暫停部長請尊重我在質詢的權利好嗎沒有問你問題我沒有問你問題謝謝部長部長我想兩大問題廚餘還有獸醫的問題廚餘的部分確實很難解決\n1805586\t1833333\t那我也看到過去其實行政院農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察那日本他其實有一個環保飼料的做法當然他是不是適合我國我也想請大家看一下那再來就是獸醫的部分因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫其實就占我國獸醫的5.75%那是不是能夠增加一些誘因讓獸醫願意留下來為我們防疫盡力我想麻煩部長麻煩院長能夠參考\n1834073\t1835941\t好 謝謝兩位 兩位辛苦了\n","txt":"好 謝謝院長那我們麻煩行政院院長請 卓院長\n部委員好 院長早安我想我今天問的問題其實都是老問題我今天不會做任何突襲性的問題我想這也是對行政院的尊重那我先想請教院長最基本的幾個問題第一個就是如果我們這陣子前陣子那個閃兵就是不想服兵這個問題\n新聞報蠻多的嘛那我想請教一下如果有異男覺得兵役法這個制度這個法律違憲那限制他的人身自由自己就決定拒絕入伍請問一下院長這個有沒有問題他有沒有這個權利說因為我認為違憲我申請釋憲所以我現在拒絕入伍可以嗎中華民國憲法規定必須服兵役是國人應盡的義務所以\n服兵役這件事情沒有違憲的空間不行這樣講喔有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算是大法官才可以說了算所以我請教您如果有藝男覺得兵役法違憲他認為限制了他的自由權利那這個時候他說我申請釋憲了要拒絕入伍請問院長可不可以我就跟委員把答覆過了依照中華民國憲法國人有服兵役的義務\n所以服兵役這件事情很單純沒有違憲的空間委員不要用這件事情想要印證你不要用這件事情想要印證其他的事實院長我們不是大法官你不能說憲法規定在那裡所以他就是怎麼做就是可以或不可以你不是大法官嘛正常的情況是他申請釋憲之後\n然後現在法庭 大法庭他認為說這個東西沒有違憲對不對 是這樣子才對嘛您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊所以你沒有給我答案好 那我再問你第二個問題啦如果人民覺得納稅 稅捐基金法違憲限制了他的財產的自由處分權請問一下 他申請\n稅捐基金法違憲之後可不可以就不繳稅請問一下據我所知稅捐基金法相關的規定你要申請任何的救濟應該要履行它必要的條件你還是沒回答我的問題啊我現在因為委員的問題現金很多\n大高院長 您也是法律系畢業的法律未接憲法法律命令我現在在跟你討論的是憲法未接你不要再跟我講法律未接的究竟好不好所以 院長你不要在那邊誤導大家啦\n我哪一件誤導大家我跟議長報告一件事我跟你說你不要誤導大家我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西你不要再跟我講稅宣激增法的究竟那個是法律層級好那我請教你還是這個問題你還是沒回答我如果人民認為稅法違憲他申請釋憲了可不可以就從此不繳稅請問一下院長可以或不可以請院長裁釋\n繳稅也是一樣我們政府依法科徵人民稅各種的稅都是法律有依據的所以法律有依據的情況之下人民繳稅這也是一種義務院長我跟你講你現在講的東西全國很多法律人都在聽是啊\n那你一定要把憲法 我在跟你談憲法位階你一定要拉到法律位階 好吧那就是院長你做的第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了 請問院長\n任何人被法律判決確定有罪那就是法律最後的定義謝謝院長一直在談法律那我也在 你一直講法律對不對立法院三讀通過的也叫法律但是我今天看到有一位院長您剛剛一直說法律有規定所以人民必須遵守那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律你也不遵守啊\n因為立法院通過的法律案預算案大幅增加行政院的稅數沒有徵詢行政院沒有指出這個資金的來源這個都違反了憲法跟預算法我一而再再而三提醒大院各位委員\n吳委員你是法律出身你應該清楚你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧院長請你不要因為政治目的而不編列去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議立法院的議事錄記載的非常的清楚內政部警政署都有派員列席所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦不要再繼續騙了啦\n你有沒有指出司機的來源你有沒有進行必要的修法都沒有啊跟院長說一下依據我國憲法訴訟法我想我們直接列訴訟法條文給院長好了啦\n第52條違憲判決認定是違憲之前這個法律就是完全生效總統已經公布了完全升上行政院就必須依法行政行政院長沒有那種理由說我認為違憲所以我不做再來你上一次你跟張綺凱在那邊虧張綺凱說你是全中華民國第一個不懂申請四憲中的這個立法委員但我要跟您講\n你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分不去適用這個法律但是依據憲法訴訟法43條它也是大法官的專屬權利請問院長一個沒有被憲法判定違憲的法律您就是有遵守的義務\n一個已經生效的法律您就必須要遵守這個你也沒有暫時處分權為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分你為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法52條及43條為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分\n是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎誰封殺大法官你們把人數砍成你們憲法訴訟法你們每一次大法官同意權不行使同意權讓他不通過不好意思那個報告主席我們時間先暫停不好意思我們彼此相互尊重也尊重委員資訊\n院長不然這樣好不好我們現在我們我現在陪你嘛我們現在時間暫停我現在陪你到總統府去請命拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好我們現在去我陪你我們跟他請我們到總統府跟總統府拜託總統府不是我們想去就可以去請命請總統趕快提人選今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院你們現在本末倒置沒有提過兩次嗎\n他提了兩次但人選有問題啊那你們為什麼要把法院人選設置成這個樣子讓大法官無法運作你講那個什麼話今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎總統提了什麼人選我只能橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎我們今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查\n我的每一個我負責任的人我也實質的審查你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查出來的認為不合格的大法官我有錯 聽我講這個話行事上有實質的審查事實上是黨議凌駕一切 不是嗎你在那邊講那個什麼話那你今天民進黨全部都投同意那是不是也黨議凌駕他們都支持啊 你可以這樣講嗎他們都支持啊 院長 院長我今天不來這邊跟你吵架你就是來吵架的我今天問的是\n我今天問的是程序我講一個很簡單嘛憲法訴訟法52條43條明明白白的在那裡您就是一個違法的院長您的這個作為啊其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民你今天是委員不是檢察官你無權在這裡說誰違法不違法\n我們今天三讀通過的法律你不依法執行你說過的啊你不依照憲法預算法大幅增加稅出沒有爭取行政院意見沒有指出稅金來源大法官OK好沒關係你今天要當大法官那你就去當你的大法官那我請教你你講了那麼久了那你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼來請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條哪一條不依法編列\n不是啊 你現在那個警察人員人事條例 軍人待遇條例我說過了我們在4月27號已經刪除通過跟6月29號已經刪除通過行政院已經說過只要釋憲結果合憲我們就依法編列而且追溯如果違憲讓我們不編列如果我現在編了 萬一違憲的話我變成違憲的院長我覺得齁 您一直在兜圈子啦我講一個很簡單的沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕\n依法行政 我剛剛問你的那三個問題人民都沒有辦法因為申請失憲中而不去做這些國民的義務憲法規定的很清楚沒有違憲的空間你到現在還是告訴我不了我的法條到底依據是什麼我現在已經告訴你法條依據為何憲法訴訟法的依據為何但是偉大的行政院長你還是告訴不了我你的法律依據為何這個就是你不依法行政\n全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎中華民國以前歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎每一任法律人都知道一句話你也是法律行政院的歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊二法 議法對不對 二法 議法 歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹承認你是二法嗎\n惡法 易法 你覺得你是惡法嗎我沒有告訴你 不是啦我認為惡法我們必須救濟我跟你講你不用在那邊耍嘴皮啦我說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法 易法即使你今天再厭惡這個法律你也必須依法行政委員竟可以跟國民講惡法 易法但是在行政院不能違憲\n院長 憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務你今天在違憲因為你今天把立法院三讀通過的法律你不依法執行這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制\n請讓大法官來講這句話不要你自己下定論大法官就被封殺啦我剛剛已經跟你講我現在可以陪你到總統府去現在是總統不願意提大法官人選請他提出來搞不好他第三波提的東西我們都很第三波提的大法官人選我們都很喜歡\n所以議法院不是總統府的立法局不是橡皮圖章我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核在人事同意權上總是黨議凌駕一切行政院負責好您的義務把事情做好依法行政我的義務就是守護憲法守護國家\n但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制可以行政院說了算\n沒有我說的算 我等待大法官的解釋我沒有做定論我沒有做定論你有申請釋憲 這個都沒有問題但是在大法官宣告違憲之前依據憲法訴訟法 它就是一個有效必須遵循的法律但是你今天沒有這麼做 很遺憾的\n您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府長期私信於民您就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民\n你是立法委員你不是檢察官你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法所以立法院三讀通過的法律我發現有一個院長不願意執行因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制然後我再告訴院長您一句話您今天說我不是檢察官不可以說你違法那我也反告訴您一句你不是院長你不可以說他違憲\n我等待大法官的決定我沒有說他違憲不違憲大法官合憲我就編違憲我就不能編所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法52條非常清楚了嘛你剛這句話就是違反沒有啊你回去看把條文看清楚吧我跟你講這是一個法治國我們是法治國所以請依法行政結果我們連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做好吧\n我也是無奈啦一個行政院卻不依法行政我跟您報告為什麼制度重要民主國家為什麼制度非常重要就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替政黨不停的輪替有不停的領導者領導的風格不一樣我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁所以我們有一個嚴格剛性的制度在那裡\n不管誰執政都必須服從那個剛性的制度國家才不會大亂那今天如果說假設換了一個政黨執政假設民眾黨執政了貴黨如果立了一個服國立民的法律那民眾黨說我認為這個法律危險我不想做\n我等釋憲啊那這樣子國家就大亂了所以憲法訴訟法它有一定的規範就是可以下暫時處分暫時不適用的是只有大法官可以再來大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前它就是一個生效的法律我們都必須要做\n所以我在這邊跟院長報告 如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度我在這邊剛已經把我國制度講完了那如果我在這邊講得那麼清楚 您還是不認同或您用您的論述我在這邊跟... 董法的人都非常清楚好 沒關係 這句話就你講你的 我講我的啦我也跟您報告一件事 我自己同學在大學當教授 他之前還是研究所所長\n他自己打電話跟我說現在院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象他們在憲法課程在講五權分立的時候在講權力分立原則的時候您是學生的負面教材您是學生拿出來說既然這個東西是不對這違反權力分立我們都是法律人您第一次我質詢您的時候我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大哥可以為我們國家好好的謀福利結果我今天看到的\n您現在變成是法律系學生的一個嘲笑對象那如果院長您覺得你這個說法如果是有依據的話麻煩您可以發動學者來打臉我來打臉憲法訴訟法52條我都歡迎嘛但是當您講不出來只剩下就是講說我認為它違憲所以我可以不做完全違法憲法訴訟法52條違反43條法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場沒關係\n您這樣講法以後人民只要覺得我哪一條我覺得違憲那我申請釋憲我就不做了因為我堅守憲法這是您的說法好 謝謝院長你這就是誤導你用一個法律嘗試在誤導國人這個非常嚴重\n你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做這非常嚴重歷史自有公斷沒關係我們就在這裡歷史自有公斷你也還年輕我們未來還很長歷史自有公斷憲法訴訟法我已經講完了清清楚楚條文在哪裡好那我再請教院長\n那您竟然說 認為大法官說核限之後你會回溯的去發放 請問一下如果下個月\n就說核限了那你們是要一次發還是分次發利息怎麼算我們可以先把預算準備好那希望能夠在核限的情況底下把財源找出來把預算準備好那能夠回溯能夠一次出發就一次發但是如果前提是如果這是違憲的我當然不能變\n我現在發了 如果他違憲我馬上變成違憲的院長 不是嗎不是啦 院長你又在亂講話了任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的你不要這樣亂講我剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法52條嘛任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前你所有作為都合法你所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長 你不要\n你不要這樣子說自己好不好這樣我聽了會不忍心啊你不是院長你沒有辦法了解我的心情我這樣聽了會不忍心你沒有辦法了解只要被大法庭申告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法合憲好不好謝謝院長那這樣子喔但是呢你明年你會你有沒有編一個貨有負債的準備啊貨有什麼\n就是你現在說這筆錢那萬一下下個月說合憲了那你要怎麼來得及準備那我先把預算找出來啊如果這預算需要追加我就請說大院同意追加那同意之後我們就來編但這個前提是他必須是合憲的才有後續的這些討論\n我剛已經講得非常的完整了我想我們今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述我想全國人民全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡當然院長您講的那句話沒錯大家叫你說要合憲不能違憲這話沒有錯\n我也很認同您這句話但是在...委員我說一句話是否可以宣告違憲的人不是院長您啊您也有志於參選地方首長如果為了地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意你做何感想你這個要直接對外公告\n你們要趕快做如果核限之後要怎麼分期有沒有利息怎麼樣入帳這個你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做而不要說等到那個宣告核限之後然後你就匆匆忙忙然後又搞不出東西來我是希望這樣因為我跟您說啦很多這些代退的人或退休的人其實他們這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用\n譬如說他的醫藥費長輩的醫藥費等等的其實他們都很在意這件事情所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情第一個就是說你要公告追溯補回的SOP如果說合憲之後的追溯補回SOP是什麼\n你不用很細項的講但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚讓人民能夠安心第二個開放權力名冊供個人能夠查詢自己因為上一次我有問過那個劉世芳部長他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用那是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定每個人都搞不清楚一直打電話來問也造成我的困擾\n那當然我很願意幫民眾查詢可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道是不是可以麻煩你能夠請那個主管機關能夠趕快把這個系統建置起來讓個人能夠查詢他個人是不是符合申請的這個發放的這個資格好不好麻煩您真的有那麼一天那麼內政部跟所有的財政單位一定會把\n程序跟預算準備好那下一個問題我想請問謝謝你下一個問題我還是想跟你請教一下就是說因為預算我們來看國家的預算其實國家預算一個餅就是這麼大塊那這個餅這麼大塊的情況下如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是我們某一個項目我們必須增加大量的預算的時候那勢必一定會去\n一定會去侵害到其他我們原本需要支付的部分所以我自己看了一下我們的國防預算當然我完全認為要支持國防而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子因為我家老小都在台灣這塊土地上\n也不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心但是我想請教您一個問題我看到2026年這國防預算再加一些特別預算加起來到9000多億對不對\n這個東西如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊國家就收這麼多稅金那我想請教你你突然你在國防的部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下那我們要去從第一個當然就是用加稅的方式來解決嘛來補這個洞第二個可能就要從一些公共投資啦社福醫療教育等等的預算挪到國防\n我想請問一下這個大量增加的國防預算我們要怎麼去支付這個錢我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%未來我們逐年朝5%來增加這個是基於兩個原因一個是國家財政的能力第二是國防的需求\n那我們也沿走財政紀律所以未來勢必要 如果這樣做的話勢必要調整支出結構對 就是您剛講的嘛 調整支出結構所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設 社福 醫療 教育等等那一方面還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來但是這個部分你們要明確的告訴人民\n我們大量的購買武器大量的支出國防預算甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%那算起來就相當於1.43兆那這個等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面那我不是說國防不重要國防非常重要但是我一直覺得說我們要強化國防這百分之百一定要的但是我們必須買\n台灣是適合用的武器而且要買購這我絕對支持第二個我們要買能夠交貨的武器這是我認為我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法第一個買台灣適合用的武器而且要買購第二個要買會交貨的武器這個很重要那因為\n等到2030年要大拉到GDP5要搞到1.43兆國家一半的錢都拿去國防一半沒有啦 沒有到一半啦而不到一半啦當然你精算不到一半啦但是四成有吧那像這個狀況下你今天你要怎麼我說你必須你會排擠到其他的東西嘛但是上次沈伯陽委員\n光是普發人民一萬現金這件事情要2400億他就說窮台了配合中國大陸解放軍要窮台要讓他們進攻台灣結果呢我們如果搞了1.43兆的話那這個會不會造成窮台其實我自己的擔心啊因為我剛講的自主防衛極端的重要我百分之百支持但是呢如果排擠掉讓台灣越來越窮我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望或我父母他們的醫療\n能夠接受到醫療的品質越來越差或我小孩的受教越來越不行我是擔心這個點不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防其實沒有我積極的百分之百的認同要增加國防就像我剛講的軍人的薪水您知不知道軍人的薪水因為我們三讀通過之後軍校很多他們招生是滿編的都是創之前很多年來今年是招生狀況最好的\n因為今年我們有增加了171億包括追加預算的60億在內增加了171億當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時其實\n軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分今年我們增加了171億所以是不是我們增加軍人的薪水讓他們在國內交費刺激經濟更好而不是買爆武器那買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平其實我個人是質疑啦那您在這個院長的任內其實人家說您是史上最愛富裕的院長而且您的任內其實有四個特別預算同時在執行\n之前已經規劃了現在在執行或是有在規劃中有四個其實我算了一下大概1.2到1.5兆之間其實還蠻驚人的所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包我們還知道一件事情就是說國家的預算如果你是用特別條例的方式去做的話特別預算的話因為他是借錢\n你借錢是人民要還感覺是什麼就像我今天去吃喝玩樂結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳那我現在就擔心說請問一下這樣子狀況下你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的這個計畫我們每年依照最近的聖餘都必須依法來\n返還債務這個都是依法在進行的所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務民能類是一定還不完所以我在這邊跟院長報告當我們對於我們的軍公教警消他們的待遇他們的退休金我們這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候但是我們對於國外採購的武器他遲不交貨\n這個東西你們卻束手無策或者是我們今天一個前件也是一直沒有達到他交件的這個期程其實我們是很難過因為這每一筆都是幾千億百億千億的事情那這個東西大家好像不是很在乎可是對於我國的軍公教我們卻一再的跟他這樣子計較\n我想院長你還是要特別注意我們當然在乎啊 我跟委員說我們第一個考慮是財政的能力第二個考慮是國防的需求就是在財政永續 世代正義跟國防實力底下我們依照這個財政紀律來考量\n國防最重要的三個要素人、裝備、維護這三個東西我們考量的是整個國家的需求買爆武器、買爆維護但是人不夠不行啦國防有需要當然要武器啊您可以否認嗎我們現在軍方的邊線比狀況不佳您可以否認嗎\n但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強我們必須增強實力很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認\n三者必須均衡而不是國防的實力我看到的是什麼五萬塊買一張椅子一百二十塊買一瓶水那刪了五十億我們爆料出來了好 才刪了這五十億但是這五十億其實拿來加薪有多好我跟你講啦就是說我還是一個想法啦國防我絕對支持啦但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰也不能帶來民生排擠更不能帶來國軍的受害我們的財政能力必須先考量\n這很多的特別預算這個是債留子孫你也知道嘛你任內是還不完的這個會債留子孫包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎什麼包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見我現在在跟你談國防你跟我扯馬太安西你說我搞了很多特別預算啊\n好啦 隨便你啦因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題啦今天大家都有眼睛有耳朵我在跟你談國防的特別預算 您再跟我談嘛你說我搞了很多特別預算啊要不要再談生育補助 要不要再談租屋津貼\n你說我搞了很多特別預算最後我想朱溫的問題我們還是要提一下朱溫的問題爆發之後其實我有提了幾個跟大家想法不一樣就是說我們發現其實邊境走私的數量查獲的數量我有去查過去10年其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入或者是自行申報或是被查獲\n然後再來我們也發現一個狀況就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理這個也是一個很大的問題再來司法也嚴重的侵犯這個我都開過記者會把實際案例都提出來了所以現在一個問題這些東西其實是中央管當然不是都行政院但這些東西很多是中央管的可是今天我們看到爆發了這件事情結果台中盧秀恩院長他後來有出來\n那個道歉而且有對幾個一級主管有下人事的命令那中央到目前為止似乎反正錯落地方然後就推給地方那我覺得反正民進黨常發生事情之後第一件事就是推責任千錯萬錯都不是我錯但是我想\n時間不長了我提兩個東西部長我沒有問你問題時間暫停部長請尊重我在質詢的權利好嗎沒有問你問題我沒有問你問題謝謝部長部長我想兩大問題廚餘還有獸醫的問題廚餘的部分確實很難解決\n那我也看到過去其實行政院農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察那日本他其實有一個環保飼料的做法當然他是不是適合我國我也想請大家看一下那再來就是獸醫的部分因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫其實就占我國獸醫的5.75%那是不是能夠增加一些誘因讓獸醫願意留下來為我們防疫盡力我想麻煩部長麻煩院長能夠參考\n好 謝謝兩位 兩位辛苦了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.940 --> 00:20.826\n好謝謝院長那我們麻煩行政院院長請卓院長\n\n00:31.175 --> 00:53.750\n部委員好院長早安我想我今天問的問題其實都是老問題我今天不會做任何突襲性的問題我想這也是對行政院的尊重那我先想請教院長最基本的幾個問題第一個就是如果我們這陣子前陣子那個閃兵就是不想服兵這個問題\n\n00:55.951 --> 01:22.110\n新聞報蠻多的嘛那我想請教一下如果有異男覺得兵役法這個制度這個法律違憲那限制他的人身自由自己就決定拒絕入伍請問一下院長這個有沒有問題他有沒有這個權利說因為我認為違憲我申請釋憲所以我現在拒絕入伍可以嗎中華民國憲法規定必須服兵役是國人應盡的義務所以\n\n01:22.540 --> 01:49.231\n服兵役這件事情沒有違憲的空間不行這樣講喔有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算是大法官才可以說了算所以我請教您如果有藝男覺得兵役法違憲他認為限制了他的自由權利那這個時候他說我申請釋憲了要拒絕入伍請問院長可不可以我就跟委員把答覆過了依照中華民國憲法國人有服兵役的義務\n\n01:50.151 --> 02:12.349\n所以服兵役這件事情很單純沒有違憲的空間委員不要用這件事情想要印證你不要用這件事情想要印證其他的事實院長我們不是大法官你不能說憲法規定在那裡所以他就是怎麼做就是可以或不可以你不是大法官嘛正常的情況是他申請釋憲之後\n\n02:14.130 --> 02:37.928\n然後現在法庭大法庭他認為說這個東西沒有違憲對不對是這樣子才對嘛您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊所以你沒有給我答案好那我再問你第二個問題啦如果人民覺得納稅稅捐基金法違憲限制了他的財產的自由處分權請問一下他申請\n\n02:39.369 --> 02:54.146\n稅捐基金法違憲之後可不可以就不繳稅請問一下據我所知稅捐基金法相關的規定你要申請任何的救濟應該要履行它必要的條件你還是沒回答我的問題啊我現在因為委員的問題現金很多\n\n02:56.628 --> 03:12.367\n大高院長您也是法律系畢業的法律未接憲法法律命令我現在在跟你討論的是憲法未接你不要再跟我講法律未接的究竟好不好所以院長你不要在那邊誤導大家啦\n\n03:13.268 --> 03:36.694\n我哪一件誤導大家我跟議長報告一件事我跟你說你不要誤導大家我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西你不要再跟我講稅宣激增法的究竟那個是法律層級好那我請教你還是這個問題你還是沒回答我如果人民認為稅法違憲他申請釋憲了可不可以就從此不繳稅請問一下院長可以或不可以請院長裁釋\n\n03:38.235 --> 03:52.632\n繳稅也是一樣我們政府依法科徵人民稅各種的稅都是法律有依據的所以法律有依據的情況之下人民繳稅這也是一種義務院長我跟你講你現在講的東西全國很多法律人都在聽是啊\n\n03:52.952 --> 04:20.205\n那你一定要把憲法我在跟你談憲法位階你一定要拉到法律位階好吧那就是院長你做的第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了請問院長\n\n04:21.946 --> 04:44.057\n任何人被法律判決確定有罪那就是法律最後的定義謝謝院長一直在談法律那我也在你一直講法律對不對立法院三讀通過的也叫法律但是我今天看到有一位院長您剛剛一直說法律有規定所以人民必須遵守那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律你也不遵守啊\n\n04:45.918 --> 05:04.975\n因為立法院通過的法律案預算案大幅增加行政院的稅數沒有徵詢行政院沒有指出這個資金的來源這個都違反了憲法跟預算法我一而再再而三提醒大院各位委員\n\n05:05.896 --> 05:30.893\n吳委員你是法律出身你應該清楚你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧院長請你不要因為政治目的而不編列去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議立法院的議事錄記載的非常的清楚內政部警政署都有派員列席所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦不要再繼續騙了啦\n\n05:32.674 --> 05:43.641\n你有沒有指出司機的來源你有沒有進行必要的修法都沒有啊跟院長說一下依據我國憲法訴訟法我想我們直接列訴訟法條文給院長好了啦\n\n05:44.997 --> 06:10.747\n第52條違憲判決認定是違憲之前這個法律就是完全生效總統已經公布了完全升上行政院就必須依法行政行政院長沒有那種理由說我認為違憲所以我不做再來你上一次你跟張綺凱在那邊虧張綺凱說你是全中華民國第一個不懂申請四憲中的這個立法委員但我要跟您講\n\n06:11.647 --> 06:30.264\n你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分不去適用這個法律但是依據憲法訴訟法43條它也是大法官的專屬權利請問院長一個沒有被憲法判定違憲的法律您就是有遵守的義務\n\n06:31.405 --> 06:44.473\n一個已經生效的法律您就必須要遵守這個你也沒有暫時處分權為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分你為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法52條及43條為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分\n\n06:46.773 --> 07:07.027\n是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎誰封殺大法官你們把人數砍成你們憲法訴訟法你們每一次大法官同意權不行使同意權讓他不通過不好意思那個報告主席我們時間先暫停不好意思我們彼此相互尊重也尊重委員資訊\n\n07:08.388 --> 07:33.304\n院長不然這樣好不好我們現在我們我現在陪你嘛我們現在時間暫停我現在陪你到總統府去請命拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好我們現在去我陪你我們跟他請我們到總統府跟總統府拜託總統府不是我們想去就可以去請命請總統趕快提人選今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院你們現在本末倒置沒有提過兩次嗎\n\n07:34.124 --> 07:55.577\n他提了兩次但人選有問題啊那你們為什麼要把法院人選設置成這個樣子讓大法官無法運作你講那個什麼話今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎總統提了什麼人選我只能橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎我們今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查\n\n07:56.818 --> 08:24.173\n我的每一個我負責任的人我也實質的審查你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查出來的認為不合格的大法官我有錯聽我講這個話行事上有實質的審查事實上是黨議凌駕一切不是嗎你在那邊講那個什麼話那你今天民進黨全部都投同意那是不是也黨議凌駕他們都支持啊你可以這樣講嗎他們都支持啊院長院長我今天不來這邊跟你吵架你就是來吵架的我今天問的是\n\n08:25.314 --> 08:47.179\n我今天問的是程序我講一個很簡單嘛憲法訴訟法52條43條明明白白的在那裡您就是一個違法的院長您的這個作為啊其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民你今天是委員不是檢察官你無權在這裡說誰違法不違法\n\n08:48.939 --> 09:13.249\n我們今天三讀通過的法律你不依法執行你說過的啊你不依照憲法預算法大幅增加稅出沒有爭取行政院意見沒有指出稅金來源大法官OK好沒關係你今天要當大法官那你就去當你的大法官那我請教你你講了那麼久了那你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼來請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條哪一條不依法編列\n\n09:13.973 --> 09:42.571\n不是啊你現在那個警察人員人事條例軍人待遇條例我說過了我們在4月27號已經刪除通過跟6月29號已經刪除通過行政院已經說過只要釋憲結果合憲我們就依法編列而且追溯如果違憲讓我們不編列如果我現在編了萬一違憲的話我變成違憲的院長我覺得齁您一直在兜圈子啦我講一個很簡單的沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕\n\n09:43.712 --> 10:12.015\n依法行政我剛剛問你的那三個問題人民都沒有辦法因為申請失憲中而不去做這些國民的義務憲法規定的很清楚沒有違憲的空間你到現在還是告訴我不了我的法條到底依據是什麼我現在已經告訴你法條依據為何憲法訴訟法的依據為何但是偉大的行政院長你還是告訴不了我你的法律依據為何這個就是你不依法行政\n\n10:12.856 --> 10:28.858\n全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎中華民國以前歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎每一任法律人都知道一句話你也是法律行政院的歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊二法議法對不對二法議法歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹承認你是二法嗎\n\n10:30.585 --> 10:47.123\n惡法易法你覺得你是惡法嗎我沒有告訴你不是啦我認為惡法我們必須救濟我跟你講你不用在那邊耍嘴皮啦我說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法易法即使你今天再厭惡這個法律你也必須依法行政委員竟可以跟國民講惡法易法但是在行政院不能違憲\n\n10:51.360 --> 11:14.951\n院長憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務你今天在違憲因為你今天把立法院三讀通過的法律你不依法執行這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制\n\n11:18.536 --> 11:34.410\n請讓大法官來講這句話不要你自己下定論大法官就被封殺啦我剛剛已經跟你講我現在可以陪你到總統府去現在是總統不願意提大法官人選請他提出來搞不好他第三波提的東西我們都很第三波提的大法官人選我們都很喜歡\n\n11:35.371 --> 11:53.348\n所以議法院不是總統府的立法局不是橡皮圖章我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核在人事同意權上總是黨議凌駕一切行政院負責好您的義務把事情做好依法行政我的義務就是守護憲法守護國家\n\n11:55.714 --> 12:04.605\n但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制可以行政院說了算\n\n12:05.737 --> 12:27.182\n沒有我說的算我等待大法官的解釋我沒有做定論我沒有做定論你有申請釋憲這個都沒有問題但是在大法官宣告違憲之前依據憲法訴訟法它就是一個有效必須遵循的法律但是你今天沒有這麼做很遺憾的\n\n12:27.802 --> 12:42.399\n您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府長期私信於民您就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民\n\n12:42.619 --> 13:01.537\n你是立法委員你不是檢察官你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法所以立法院三讀通過的法律我發現有一個院長不願意執行因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制然後我再告訴院長您一句話您今天說我不是檢察官不可以說你違法那我也反告訴您一句你不是院長你不可以說他違憲\n\n13:02.625 --> 13:26.236\n我等待大法官的決定我沒有說他違憲不違憲大法官合憲我就編違憲我就不能編所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法52條非常清楚了嘛你剛這句話就是違反沒有啊你回去看把條文看清楚吧我跟你講這是一個法治國我們是法治國所以請依法行政結果我們連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做好吧\n\n13:28.285 --> 13:48.737\n我也是無奈啦一個行政院卻不依法行政我跟您報告為什麼制度重要民主國家為什麼制度非常重要就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替政黨不停的輪替有不停的領導者領導的風格不一樣我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁所以我們有一個嚴格剛性的制度在那裡\n\n13:49.477 --> 14:04.655\n不管誰執政都必須服從那個剛性的制度國家才不會大亂那今天如果說假設換了一個政黨執政假設民眾黨執政了貴黨如果立了一個服國立民的法律那民眾黨說我認為這個法律危險我不想做\n\n14:05.556 --> 14:22.417\n我等釋憲啊那這樣子國家就大亂了所以憲法訴訟法它有一定的規範就是可以下暫時處分暫時不適用的是只有大法官可以再來大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前它就是一個生效的法律我們都必須要做\n\n14:23.118 --> 14:46.715\n所以我在這邊跟院長報告如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度我在這邊剛已經把我國制度講完了那如果我在這邊講得那麼清楚您還是不認同或您用您的論述我在這邊跟...董法的人都非常清楚好沒關係這句話就你講你的我講我的啦我也跟您報告一件事我自己同學在大學當教授他之前還是研究所所長\n\n14:47.455 --> 15:14.726\n他自己打電話跟我說現在院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象他們在憲法課程在講五權分立的時候在講權力分立原則的時候您是學生的負面教材您是學生拿出來說既然這個東西是不對這違反權力分立我們都是法律人您第一次我質詢您的時候我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大哥可以為我們國家好好的謀福利結果我今天看到的\n\n15:15.146 --> 15:39.911\n您現在變成是法律系學生的一個嘲笑對象那如果院長您覺得你這個說法如果是有依據的話麻煩您可以發動學者來打臉我來打臉憲法訴訟法52條我都歡迎嘛但是當您講不出來只剩下就是講說我認為它違憲所以我可以不做完全違法憲法訴訟法52條違反43條法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場沒關係\n\n15:44.633 --> 15:57.432\n您這樣講法以後人民只要覺得我哪一條我覺得違憲那我申請釋憲我就不做了因為我堅守憲法這是您的說法好謝謝院長你這就是誤導你用一個法律嘗試在誤導國人這個非常嚴重\n\n16:01.189 --> 16:20.925\n你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做這非常嚴重歷史自有公斷沒關係我們就在這裡歷史自有公斷你也還年輕我們未來還很長歷史自有公斷憲法訴訟法我已經講完了清清楚楚條文在哪裡好那我再請教院長\n\n16:21.866 --> 16:30.872\n那您竟然說認為大法官說核限之後你會回溯的去發放請問一下如果下個月\n\n16:33.866 --> 16:54.764\n就說核限了那你們是要一次發還是分次發利息怎麼算我們可以先把預算準備好那希望能夠在核限的情況底下把財源找出來把預算準備好那能夠回溯能夠一次出發就一次發但是如果前提是如果這是違憲的我當然不能變\n\n16:56.425 --> 17:19.854\n我現在發了如果他違憲我馬上變成違憲的院長不是嗎不是啦院長你又在亂講話了任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的你不要這樣亂講我剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法52條嘛任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前你所有作為都合法你所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長你不要\n\n17:21.815 --> 17:42.964\n你不要這樣子說自己好不好這樣我聽了會不忍心啊你不是院長你沒有辦法了解我的心情我這樣聽了會不忍心你沒有辦法了解只要被大法庭申告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法合憲好不好謝謝院長那這樣子喔但是呢你明年你會你有沒有編一個貨有負債的準備啊貨有什麼\n\n17:43.677 --> 18:02.099\n就是你現在說這筆錢那萬一下下個月說合憲了那你要怎麼來得及準備那我先把預算找出來啊如果這預算需要追加我就請說大院同意追加那同意之後我們就來編但這個前提是他必須是合憲的才有後續的這些討論\n\n18:04.141 --> 18:19.802\n我剛已經講得非常的完整了我想我們今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述我想全國人民全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡當然院長您講的那句話沒錯大家叫你說要合憲不能違憲這話沒有錯\n\n18:22.355 --> 18:38.872\n我也很認同您這句話但是在...委員我說一句話是否可以宣告違憲的人不是院長您啊您也有志於參選地方首長如果為了地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意你做何感想你這個要直接對外公告\n\n18:39.953 --> 19:03.045\n你們要趕快做如果核限之後要怎麼分期有沒有利息怎麼樣入帳這個你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做而不要說等到那個宣告核限之後然後你就匆匆忙忙然後又搞不出東西來我是希望這樣因為我跟您說啦很多這些代退的人或退休的人其實他們這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用\n\n19:03.585 --> 19:18.477\n譬如說他的醫藥費長輩的醫藥費等等的其實他們都很在意這件事情所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情第一個就是說你要公告追溯補回的SOP如果說合憲之後的追溯補回SOP是什麼\n\n19:19.378 --> 19:46.658\n你不用很細項的講但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚讓人民能夠安心第二個開放權力名冊供個人能夠查詢自己因為上一次我有問過那個劉世芳部長他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用那是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定每個人都搞不清楚一直打電話來問也造成我的困擾\n\n19:47.758 --> 20:10.276\n那當然我很願意幫民眾查詢可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道是不是可以麻煩你能夠請那個主管機關能夠趕快把這個系統建置起來讓個人能夠查詢他個人是不是符合申請的這個發放的這個資格好不好麻煩您真的有那麼一天那麼內政部跟所有的財政單位一定會把\n\n20:10.916 --> 20:34.355\n程序跟預算準備好那下一個問題我想請問謝謝你下一個問題我還是想跟你請教一下就是說因為預算我們來看國家的預算其實國家預算一個餅就是這麼大塊那這個餅這麼大塊的情況下如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是我們某一個項目我們必須增加大量的預算的時候那勢必一定會去\n\n20:34.955 --> 20:52.767\n一定會去侵害到其他我們原本需要支付的部分所以我自己看了一下我們的國防預算當然我完全認為要支持國防而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子因為我家老小都在台灣這塊土地上\n\n20:53.487 --> 21:04.344\n也不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心但是我想請教您一個問題我看到2026年這國防預算再加一些特別預算加起來到9000多億對不對\n\n21:08.532 --> 21:32.684\n這個東西如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊國家就收這麼多稅金那我想請教你你突然你在國防的部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下那我們要去從第一個當然就是用加稅的方式來解決嘛來補這個洞第二個可能就要從一些公共投資啦社福醫療教育等等的預算挪到國防\n\n21:33.704 --> 21:52.371\n我想請問一下這個大量增加的國防預算我們要怎麼去支付這個錢我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%未來我們逐年朝5%來增加這個是基於兩個原因一個是國家財政的能力第二是國防的需求\n\n21:53.411 --> 22:13.772\n那我們也沿走財政紀律所以未來勢必要如果這樣做的話勢必要調整支出結構對就是您剛講的嘛調整支出結構所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設社福醫療教育等等那一方面還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來但是這個部分你們要明確的告訴人民\n\n22:14.312 --> 22:37.157\n我們大量的購買武器大量的支出國防預算甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%那算起來就相當於1.43兆那這個等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面那我不是說國防不重要國防非常重要但是我一直覺得說我們要強化國防這百分之百一定要的但是我們必須買\n\n22:38.257 --> 22:56.502\n台灣是適合用的武器而且要買購這我絕對支持第二個我們要買能夠交貨的武器這是我認為我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法第一個買台灣適合用的武器而且要買購第二個要買會交貨的武器這個很重要那因為\n\n22:57.762 --> 23:18.455\n等到2030年要大拉到GDP5要搞到1.43兆國家一半的錢都拿去國防一半沒有啦沒有到一半啦而不到一半啦當然你精算不到一半啦但是四成有吧那像這個狀況下你今天你要怎麼我說你必須你會排擠到其他的東西嘛但是上次沈伯陽委員\n\n23:19.235 --> 23:47.661\n光是普發人民一萬現金這件事情要2400億他就說窮台了配合中國大陸解放軍要窮台要讓他們進攻台灣結果呢我們如果搞了1.43兆的話那這個會不會造成窮台其實我自己的擔心啊因為我剛講的自主防衛極端的重要我百分之百支持但是呢如果排擠掉讓台灣越來越窮我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望或我父母他們的醫療\n\n23:48.941 --> 24:16.737\n能夠接受到醫療的品質越來越差或我小孩的受教越來越不行我是擔心這個點不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防其實沒有我積極的百分之百的認同要增加國防就像我剛講的軍人的薪水您知不知道軍人的薪水因為我們三讀通過之後軍校很多他們招生是滿編的都是創之前很多年來今年是招生狀況最好的\n\n24:17.128 --> 24:26.316\n因為今年我們有增加了171億包括追加預算的60億在內增加了171億當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時其實\n\n24:28.266 --> 24:54.189\n軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分今年我們增加了171億所以是不是我們增加軍人的薪水讓他們在國內交費刺激經濟更好而不是買爆武器那買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平其實我個人是質疑啦那您在這個院長的任內其實人家說您是史上最愛富裕的院長而且您的任內其實有四個特別預算同時在執行\n\n24:55.510 --> 25:16.817\n之前已經規劃了現在在執行或是有在規劃中有四個其實我算了一下大概1.2到1.5兆之間其實還蠻驚人的所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包我們還知道一件事情就是說國家的預算如果你是用特別條例的方式去做的話特別預算的話因為他是借錢\n\n25:18.217 --> 25:40.305\n你借錢是人民要還感覺是什麼就像我今天去吃喝玩樂結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳那我現在就擔心說請問一下這樣子狀況下你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的這個計畫我們每年依照最近的聖餘都必須依法來\n\n25:42.301 --> 26:04.514\n返還債務這個都是依法在進行的所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務民能類是一定還不完所以我在這邊跟院長報告當我們對於我們的軍公教警消他們的待遇他們的退休金我們這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候但是我們對於國外採購的武器他遲不交貨\n\n26:07.706 --> 26:25.222\n這個東西你們卻束手無策或者是我們今天一個前件也是一直沒有達到他交件的這個期程其實我們是很難過因為這每一筆都是幾千億百億千億的事情那這個東西大家好像不是很在乎可是對於我國的軍公教我們卻一再的跟他這樣子計較\n\n26:27.364 --> 26:42.278\n我想院長你還是要特別注意我們當然在乎啊我跟委員說我們第一個考慮是財政的能力第二個考慮是國防的需求就是在財政永續世代正義跟國防實力底下我們依照這個財政紀律來考量\n\n26:45.300 --> 27:02.452\n國防最重要的三個要素人、裝備、維護這三個東西我們考量的是整個國家的需求買爆武器、買爆維護但是人不夠不行啦國防有需要當然要武器啊您可以否認嗎我們現在軍方的邊線比狀況不佳您可以否認嗎\n\n27:07.395 --> 27:11.160\n但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強我們必須增強實力很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認\n\n27:21.758 --> 27:47.958\n三者必須均衡而不是國防的實力我看到的是什麼五萬塊買一張椅子一百二十塊買一瓶水那刪了五十億我們爆料出來了好才刪了這五十億但是這五十億其實拿來加薪有多好我跟你講啦就是說我還是一個想法啦國防我絕對支持啦但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰也不能帶來民生排擠更不能帶來國軍的受害我們的財政能力必須先考量\n\n27:51.981 --> 28:08.173\n這很多的特別預算這個是債留子孫你也知道嘛你任內是還不完的這個會債留子孫包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎什麼包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見我現在在跟你談國防你跟我扯馬太安西你說我搞了很多特別預算啊\n\n28:09.278 --> 28:31.831\n好啦隨便你啦因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題啦今天大家都有眼睛有耳朵我在跟你談國防的特別預算您再跟我談嘛你說我搞了很多特別預算啊要不要再談生育補助要不要再談租屋津貼\n\n28:32.691 --> 28:57.303\n你說我搞了很多特別預算最後我想朱溫的問題我們還是要提一下朱溫的問題爆發之後其實我有提了幾個跟大家想法不一樣就是說我們發現其實邊境走私的數量查獲的數量我有去查過去10年其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入或者是自行申報或是被查獲\n\n28:58.504 --> 29:22.697\n然後再來我們也發現一個狀況就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理這個也是一個很大的問題再來司法也嚴重的侵犯這個我都開過記者會把實際案例都提出來了所以現在一個問題這些東西其實是中央管當然不是都行政院但這些東西很多是中央管的可是今天我們看到爆發了這件事情結果台中盧秀恩院長他後來有出來\n\n29:23.557 --> 29:41.893\n那個道歉而且有對幾個一級主管有下人事的命令那中央到目前為止似乎反正錯落地方然後就推給地方那我覺得反正民進黨常發生事情之後第一件事就是推責任千錯萬錯都不是我錯但是我想\n\n29:42.974 --> 29:47.897\n時間不長了我提兩個東西部長我沒有問你問題時間暫停部長請尊重我在質詢的權利好嗎沒有問你問題我沒有問你問題謝謝部長部長我想兩大問題廚餘還有獸醫的問題廚餘的部分確實很難解決\n\n30:05.586 --> 30:33.333\n那我也看到過去其實行政院農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察那日本他其實有一個環保飼料的做法當然他是不是適合我國我也想請大家看一下那再來就是獸醫的部分因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫其實就占我國獸醫的5.75%那是不是能夠增加一些誘因讓獸醫願意留下來為我們防疫盡力我想麻煩部長麻煩院長能夠參考\n\n30:34.073 --> 30:35.941\n好謝謝兩位兩位辛苦了\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.94,"end":20.826,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我們麻煩行政院院長請 卓院長"},{"start":31.175,"end":53.75,"text":"部委員好 院長早安我想我今天問的問題其實都是老問題我今天不會做任何突襲性的問題我想這也是對行政院的尊重那我先想請教院長最基本的幾個問題第一個就是如果我們這陣子前陣子那個閃兵就是不想服兵這個問題"},{"start":55.951,"end":82.11,"text":"新聞報蠻多的嘛那我想請教一下如果有異男覺得兵役法這個制度這個法律違憲那限制他的人身自由自己就決定拒絕入伍請問一下院長這個有沒有問題他有沒有這個權利說因為我認為違憲我申請釋憲所以我現在拒絕入伍可以嗎中華民國憲法規定必須服兵役是國人應盡的義務所以"},{"start":82.54,"end":109.231,"text":"服兵役這件事情沒有違憲的空間不行這樣講喔有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算是大法官才可以說了算所以我請教您如果有藝男覺得兵役法違憲他認為限制了他的自由權利那這個時候他說我申請釋憲了要拒絕入伍請問院長可不可以我就跟委員把答覆過了依照中華民國憲法國人有服兵役的義務"},{"start":110.151,"end":132.349,"text":"所以服兵役這件事情很單純沒有違憲的空間委員不要用這件事情想要印證你不要用這件事情想要印證其他的事實院長我們不是大法官你不能說憲法規定在那裡所以他就是怎麼做就是可以或不可以你不是大法官嘛正常的情況是他申請釋憲之後"},{"start":134.13,"end":157.928,"text":"然後現在法庭 大法庭他認為說這個東西沒有違憲對不對 是這樣子才對嘛您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊所以你沒有給我答案好 那我再問你第二個問題啦如果人民覺得納稅 稅捐基金法違憲限制了他的財產的自由處分權請問一下 他申請"},{"start":159.369,"end":174.146,"text":"稅捐基金法違憲之後可不可以就不繳稅請問一下據我所知稅捐基金法相關的規定你要申請任何的救濟應該要履行它必要的條件你還是沒回答我的問題啊我現在因為委員的問題現金很多"},{"start":176.628,"end":192.367,"text":"大高院長 您也是法律系畢業的法律未接憲法法律命令我現在在跟你討論的是憲法未接你不要再跟我講法律未接的究竟好不好所以 院長你不要在那邊誤導大家啦"},{"start":193.268,"end":216.694,"text":"我哪一件誤導大家我跟議長報告一件事我跟你說你不要誤導大家我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西你不要再跟我講稅宣激增法的究竟那個是法律層級好那我請教你還是這個問題你還是沒回答我如果人民認為稅法違憲他申請釋憲了可不可以就從此不繳稅請問一下院長可以或不可以請院長裁釋"},{"start":218.235,"end":232.632,"text":"繳稅也是一樣我們政府依法科徵人民稅各種的稅都是法律有依據的所以法律有依據的情況之下人民繳稅這也是一種義務院長我跟你講你現在講的東西全國很多法律人都在聽是啊"},{"start":232.952,"end":260.205,"text":"那你一定要把憲法 我在跟你談憲法位階你一定要拉到法律位階 好吧那就是院長你做的第三個問題請教如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪要入監服刑那這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲侵害他的人身自由權而申請釋憲他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑因為我已經申請釋憲了 請問院長"},{"start":261.946,"end":284.057,"text":"任何人被法律判決確定有罪那就是法律最後的定義謝謝院長一直在談法律那我也在 你一直講法律對不對立法院三讀通過的也叫法律但是我今天看到有一位院長您剛剛一直說法律有規定所以人民必須遵守那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律你也不遵守啊"},{"start":285.918,"end":304.975,"text":"因為立法院通過的法律案預算案大幅增加行政院的稅數沒有徵詢行政院沒有指出這個資金的來源這個都違反了憲法跟預算法我一而再再而三提醒大院各位委員"},{"start":305.896,"end":330.893,"text":"吳委員你是法律出身你應該清楚你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧院長請你不要因為政治目的而不編列去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議立法院的議事錄記載的非常的清楚內政部警政署都有派員列席所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦不要再繼續騙了啦"},{"start":332.674,"end":343.641,"text":"你有沒有指出司機的來源你有沒有進行必要的修法都沒有啊跟院長說一下依據我國憲法訴訟法我想我們直接列訴訟法條文給院長好了啦"},{"start":344.997,"end":370.747,"text":"第52條違憲判決認定是違憲之前這個法律就是完全生效總統已經公布了完全升上行政院就必須依法行政行政院長沒有那種理由說我認為違憲所以我不做再來你上一次你跟張綺凱在那邊虧張綺凱說你是全中華民國第一個不懂申請四憲中的這個立法委員但我要跟您講"},{"start":371.647,"end":390.264,"text":"你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分不去適用這個法律但是依據憲法訴訟法43條它也是大法官的專屬權利請問院長一個沒有被憲法判定違憲的法律您就是有遵守的義務"},{"start":391.405,"end":404.473,"text":"一個已經生效的法律您就必須要遵守這個你也沒有暫時處分權為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分你為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法52條及43條為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分"},{"start":406.773,"end":427.027,"text":"是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎是你們封殺的大法官不是嗎誰封殺大法官你們把人數砍成你們憲法訴訟法你們每一次大法官同意權不行使同意權讓他不通過不好意思那個報告主席我們時間先暫停不好意思我們彼此相互尊重也尊重委員資訊"},{"start":428.388,"end":453.304,"text":"院長不然這樣好不好我們現在我們我現在陪你嘛我們現在時間暫停我現在陪你到總統府去請命拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好我們現在去我陪你我們跟他請我們到總統府跟總統府拜託總統府不是我們想去就可以去請命請總統趕快提人選今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院你們現在本末倒置沒有提過兩次嗎"},{"start":454.124,"end":475.577,"text":"他提了兩次但人選有問題啊那你們為什麼要把法院人選設置成這個樣子讓大法官無法運作你講那個什麼話今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎總統提了什麼人選我只能橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎我們今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查"},{"start":476.818,"end":504.173,"text":"我的每一個我負責任的人我也實質的審查你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查出來的認為不合格的大法官我有錯 聽我講這個話行事上有實質的審查事實上是黨議凌駕一切 不是嗎你在那邊講那個什麼話那你今天民進黨全部都投同意那是不是也黨議凌駕他們都支持啊 你可以這樣講嗎他們都支持啊 院長 院長我今天不來這邊跟你吵架你就是來吵架的我今天問的是"},{"start":505.314,"end":527.179,"text":"我今天問的是程序我講一個很簡單嘛憲法訴訟法52條43條明明白白的在那裡您就是一個違法的院長您的這個作為啊其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民你今天是委員不是檢察官你無權在這裡說誰違法不違法"},{"start":528.939,"end":553.249,"text":"我們今天三讀通過的法律你不依法執行你說過的啊你不依照憲法預算法大幅增加稅出沒有爭取行政院意見沒有指出稅金來源大法官OK好沒關係你今天要當大法官那你就去當你的大法官那我請教你你講了那麼久了那你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼來請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條哪一條不依法編列"},{"start":553.973,"end":582.571,"text":"不是啊 你現在那個警察人員人事條例 軍人待遇條例我說過了我們在4月27號已經刪除通過跟6月29號已經刪除通過行政院已經說過只要釋憲結果合憲我們就依法編列而且追溯如果違憲讓我們不編列如果我現在編了 萬一違憲的話我變成違憲的院長我覺得齁 您一直在兜圈子啦我講一個很簡單的沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕"},{"start":583.712,"end":612.015,"text":"依法行政 我剛剛問你的那三個問題人民都沒有辦法因為申請失憲中而不去做這些國民的義務憲法規定的很清楚沒有違憲的空間你到現在還是告訴我不了我的法條到底依據是什麼我現在已經告訴你法條依據為何憲法訴訟法的依據為何但是偉大的行政院長你還是告訴不了我你的法律依據為何這個就是你不依法行政"},{"start":612.856,"end":628.858,"text":"全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎中華民國以前歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎每一任法律人都知道一句話你也是法律行政院的歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊二法 議法對不對 二法 議法 歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹承認你是二法嗎"},{"start":630.585,"end":647.123,"text":"惡法 易法 你覺得你是惡法嗎我沒有告訴你 不是啦我認為惡法我們必須救濟我跟你講你不用在那邊耍嘴皮啦我說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法 易法即使你今天再厭惡這個法律你也必須依法行政委員竟可以跟國民講惡法 易法但是在行政院不能違憲"},{"start":651.36,"end":674.951,"text":"院長 憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務你今天在違憲因為你今天把立法院三讀通過的法律你不依法執行這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制"},{"start":678.536,"end":694.41,"text":"請讓大法官來講這句話不要你自己下定論大法官就被封殺啦我剛剛已經跟你講我現在可以陪你到總統府去現在是總統不願意提大法官人選請他提出來搞不好他第三波提的東西我們都很第三波提的大法官人選我們都很喜歡"},{"start":695.371,"end":713.348,"text":"所以議法院不是總統府的立法局不是橡皮圖章我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核在人事同意權上總是黨議凌駕一切行政院負責好您的義務把事情做好依法行政我的義務就是守護憲法守護國家"},{"start":715.714,"end":724.605,"text":"但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制可以行政院說了算"},{"start":725.737,"end":747.182,"text":"沒有我說的算 我等待大法官的解釋我沒有做定論我沒有做定論你有申請釋憲 這個都沒有問題但是在大法官宣告違憲之前依據憲法訴訟法 它就是一個有效必須遵循的法律但是你今天沒有這麼做 很遺憾的"},{"start":747.802,"end":762.399,"text":"您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民您今天就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府長期私信於民您就是一個違法的院長而且你讓民進黨政府私信於民"},{"start":762.619,"end":781.537,"text":"你是立法委員你不是檢察官你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法所以立法院三讀通過的法律我發現有一個院長不願意執行因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制然後我再告訴院長您一句話您今天說我不是檢察官不可以說你違法那我也反告訴您一句你不是院長你不可以說他違憲"},{"start":782.625,"end":806.236,"text":"我等待大法官的決定我沒有說他違憲不違憲大法官合憲我就編違憲我就不能編所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法52條非常清楚了嘛你剛這句話就是違反沒有啊你回去看把條文看清楚吧我跟你講這是一個法治國我們是法治國所以請依法行政結果我們連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做好吧"},{"start":808.285,"end":828.737,"text":"我也是無奈啦一個行政院卻不依法行政我跟您報告為什麼制度重要民主國家為什麼制度非常重要就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替政黨不停的輪替有不停的領導者領導的風格不一樣我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁所以我們有一個嚴格剛性的制度在那裡"},{"start":829.477,"end":844.655,"text":"不管誰執政都必須服從那個剛性的制度國家才不會大亂那今天如果說假設換了一個政黨執政假設民眾黨執政了貴黨如果立了一個服國立民的法律那民眾黨說我認為這個法律危險我不想做"},{"start":845.556,"end":862.417,"text":"我等釋憲啊那這樣子國家就大亂了所以憲法訴訟法它有一定的規範就是可以下暫時處分暫時不適用的是只有大法官可以再來大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前它就是一個生效的法律我們都必須要做"},{"start":863.118,"end":886.715,"text":"所以我在這邊跟院長報告 如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度我在這邊剛已經把我國制度講完了那如果我在這邊講得那麼清楚 您還是不認同或您用您的論述我在這邊跟... 董法的人都非常清楚好 沒關係 這句話就你講你的 我講我的啦我也跟您報告一件事 我自己同學在大學當教授 他之前還是研究所所長"},{"start":887.455,"end":914.726,"text":"他自己打電話跟我說現在院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象他們在憲法課程在講五權分立的時候在講權力分立原則的時候您是學生的負面教材您是學生拿出來說既然這個東西是不對這違反權力分立我們都是法律人您第一次我質詢您的時候我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大哥可以為我們國家好好的謀福利結果我今天看到的"},{"start":915.146,"end":939.911,"text":"您現在變成是法律系學生的一個嘲笑對象那如果院長您覺得你這個說法如果是有依據的話麻煩您可以發動學者來打臉我來打臉憲法訴訟法52條我都歡迎嘛但是當您講不出來只剩下就是講說我認為它違憲所以我可以不做完全違法憲法訴訟法52條違反43條法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場沒關係"},{"start":944.633,"end":957.432,"text":"您這樣講法以後人民只要覺得我哪一條我覺得違憲那我申請釋憲我就不做了因為我堅守憲法這是您的說法好 謝謝院長你這就是誤導你用一個法律嘗試在誤導國人這個非常嚴重"},{"start":961.189,"end":980.925,"text":"你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做這非常嚴重歷史自有公斷沒關係我們就在這裡歷史自有公斷你也還年輕我們未來還很長歷史自有公斷憲法訴訟法我已經講完了清清楚楚條文在哪裡好那我再請教院長"},{"start":981.866,"end":990.872,"text":"那您竟然說 認為大法官說核限之後你會回溯的去發放 請問一下如果下個月"},{"start":993.866,"end":1014.764,"text":"就說核限了那你們是要一次發還是分次發利息怎麼算我們可以先把預算準備好那希望能夠在核限的情況底下把財源找出來把預算準備好那能夠回溯能夠一次出發就一次發但是如果前提是如果這是違憲的我當然不能變"},{"start":1016.425,"end":1039.854,"text":"我現在發了 如果他違憲我馬上變成違憲的院長 不是嗎不是啦 院長你又在亂講話了任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的你不要這樣亂講我剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法52條嘛任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前你所有作為都合法你所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長 你不要"},{"start":1041.815,"end":1062.964,"text":"你不要這樣子說自己好不好這樣我聽了會不忍心啊你不是院長你沒有辦法了解我的心情我這樣聽了會不忍心你沒有辦法了解只要被大法庭申告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法合憲好不好謝謝院長那這樣子喔但是呢你明年你會你有沒有編一個貨有負債的準備啊貨有什麼"},{"start":1063.677,"end":1082.099,"text":"就是你現在說這筆錢那萬一下下個月說合憲了那你要怎麼來得及準備那我先把預算找出來啊如果這預算需要追加我就請說大院同意追加那同意之後我們就來編但這個前提是他必須是合憲的才有後續的這些討論"},{"start":1084.141,"end":1099.802,"text":"我剛已經講得非常的完整了我想我們今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述我想全國人民全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡當然院長您講的那句話沒錯大家叫你說要合憲不能違憲這話沒有錯"},{"start":1102.355,"end":1118.872,"text":"我也很認同您這句話但是在...委員我說一句話是否可以宣告違憲的人不是院長您啊您也有志於參選地方首長如果為了地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意你做何感想你這個要直接對外公告"},{"start":1119.953,"end":1143.045,"text":"你們要趕快做如果核限之後要怎麼分期有沒有利息怎麼樣入帳這個你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做而不要說等到那個宣告核限之後然後你就匆匆忙忙然後又搞不出東西來我是希望這樣因為我跟您說啦很多這些代退的人或退休的人其實他們這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用"},{"start":1143.585,"end":1158.477,"text":"譬如說他的醫藥費長輩的醫藥費等等的其實他們都很在意這件事情所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情第一個就是說你要公告追溯補回的SOP如果說合憲之後的追溯補回SOP是什麼"},{"start":1159.378,"end":1186.658,"text":"你不用很細項的講但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚讓人民能夠安心第二個開放權力名冊供個人能夠查詢自己因為上一次我有問過那個劉世芳部長他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用那是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定每個人都搞不清楚一直打電話來問也造成我的困擾"},{"start":1187.758,"end":1210.276,"text":"那當然我很願意幫民眾查詢可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道是不是可以麻煩你能夠請那個主管機關能夠趕快把這個系統建置起來讓個人能夠查詢他個人是不是符合申請的這個發放的這個資格好不好麻煩您真的有那麼一天那麼內政部跟所有的財政單位一定會把"},{"start":1210.916,"end":1234.355,"text":"程序跟預算準備好那下一個問題我想請問謝謝你下一個問題我還是想跟你請教一下就是說因為預算我們來看國家的預算其實國家預算一個餅就是這麼大塊那這個餅這麼大塊的情況下如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是我們某一個項目我們必須增加大量的預算的時候那勢必一定會去"},{"start":1234.955,"end":1252.767,"text":"一定會去侵害到其他我們原本需要支付的部分所以我自己看了一下我們的國防預算當然我完全認為要支持國防而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子因為我家老小都在台灣這塊土地上"},{"start":1253.487,"end":1264.344,"text":"也不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心但是我想請教您一個問題我看到2026年這國防預算再加一些特別預算加起來到9000多億對不對"},{"start":1268.532,"end":1292.684,"text":"這個東西如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊國家就收這麼多稅金那我想請教你你突然你在國防的部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下那我們要去從第一個當然就是用加稅的方式來解決嘛來補這個洞第二個可能就要從一些公共投資啦社福醫療教育等等的預算挪到國防"},{"start":1293.704,"end":1312.371,"text":"我想請問一下這個大量增加的國防預算我們要怎麼去支付這個錢我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%未來我們逐年朝5%來增加這個是基於兩個原因一個是國家財政的能力第二是國防的需求"},{"start":1313.411,"end":1333.772,"text":"那我們也沿走財政紀律所以未來勢必要 如果這樣做的話勢必要調整支出結構對 就是您剛講的嘛 調整支出結構所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設 社福 醫療 教育等等那一方面還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來但是這個部分你們要明確的告訴人民"},{"start":1334.312,"end":1357.157,"text":"我們大量的購買武器大量的支出國防預算甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%那算起來就相當於1.43兆那這個等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面那我不是說國防不重要國防非常重要但是我一直覺得說我們要強化國防這百分之百一定要的但是我們必須買"},{"start":1358.257,"end":1376.502,"text":"台灣是適合用的武器而且要買購這我絕對支持第二個我們要買能夠交貨的武器這是我認為我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法第一個買台灣適合用的武器而且要買購第二個要買會交貨的武器這個很重要那因為"},{"start":1377.762,"end":1398.455,"text":"等到2030年要大拉到GDP5要搞到1.43兆國家一半的錢都拿去國防一半沒有啦 沒有到一半啦而不到一半啦當然你精算不到一半啦但是四成有吧那像這個狀況下你今天你要怎麼我說你必須你會排擠到其他的東西嘛但是上次沈伯陽委員"},{"start":1399.235,"end":1427.661,"text":"光是普發人民一萬現金這件事情要2400億他就說窮台了配合中國大陸解放軍要窮台要讓他們進攻台灣結果呢我們如果搞了1.43兆的話那這個會不會造成窮台其實我自己的擔心啊因為我剛講的自主防衛極端的重要我百分之百支持但是呢如果排擠掉讓台灣越來越窮我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望或我父母他們的醫療"},{"start":1428.941,"end":1456.737,"text":"能夠接受到醫療的品質越來越差或我小孩的受教越來越不行我是擔心這個點不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防其實沒有我積極的百分之百的認同要增加國防就像我剛講的軍人的薪水您知不知道軍人的薪水因為我們三讀通過之後軍校很多他們招生是滿編的都是創之前很多年來今年是招生狀況最好的"},{"start":1457.128,"end":1466.316,"text":"因為今年我們有增加了171億包括追加預算的60億在內增加了171億當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時其實"},{"start":1468.266,"end":1494.189,"text":"軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分今年我們增加了171億所以是不是我們增加軍人的薪水讓他們在國內交費刺激經濟更好而不是買爆武器那買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平其實我個人是質疑啦那您在這個院長的任內其實人家說您是史上最愛富裕的院長而且您的任內其實有四個特別預算同時在執行"},{"start":1495.51,"end":1516.817,"text":"之前已經規劃了現在在執行或是有在規劃中有四個其實我算了一下大概1.2到1.5兆之間其實還蠻驚人的所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包我們還知道一件事情就是說國家的預算如果你是用特別條例的方式去做的話特別預算的話因為他是借錢"},{"start":1518.217,"end":1540.305,"text":"你借錢是人民要還感覺是什麼就像我今天去吃喝玩樂結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳那我現在就擔心說請問一下這樣子狀況下你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的這個計畫我們每年依照最近的聖餘都必須依法來"},{"start":1542.301,"end":1564.514,"text":"返還債務這個都是依法在進行的所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務民能類是一定還不完所以我在這邊跟院長報告當我們對於我們的軍公教警消他們的待遇他們的退休金我們這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候但是我們對於國外採購的武器他遲不交貨"},{"start":1567.706,"end":1585.222,"text":"這個東西你們卻束手無策或者是我們今天一個前件也是一直沒有達到他交件的這個期程其實我們是很難過因為這每一筆都是幾千億百億千億的事情那這個東西大家好像不是很在乎可是對於我國的軍公教我們卻一再的跟他這樣子計較"},{"start":1587.364,"end":1602.278,"text":"我想院長你還是要特別注意我們當然在乎啊 我跟委員說我們第一個考慮是財政的能力第二個考慮是國防的需求就是在財政永續 世代正義跟國防實力底下我們依照這個財政紀律來考量"},{"start":1605.3,"end":1622.452,"text":"國防最重要的三個要素人、裝備、維護這三個東西我們考量的是整個國家的需求買爆武器、買爆維護但是人不夠不行啦國防有需要當然要武器啊您可以否認嗎我們現在軍方的邊線比狀況不佳您可以否認嗎"},{"start":1627.395,"end":1631.16,"text":"但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強我們必須增強實力很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認"},{"start":1641.758,"end":1667.958,"text":"三者必須均衡而不是國防的實力我看到的是什麼五萬塊買一張椅子一百二十塊買一瓶水那刪了五十億我們爆料出來了好 才刪了這五十億但是這五十億其實拿來加薪有多好我跟你講啦就是說我還是一個想法啦國防我絕對支持啦但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰也不能帶來民生排擠更不能帶來國軍的受害我們的財政能力必須先考量"},{"start":1671.981,"end":1688.173,"text":"這很多的特別預算這個是債留子孫你也知道嘛你任內是還不完的這個會債留子孫包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見嗎什麼包括馬太安西的特別預算你也有意見我現在在跟你談國防你跟我扯馬太安西你說我搞了很多特別預算啊"},{"start":1689.278,"end":1711.831,"text":"好啦 隨便你啦因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題啦今天大家都有眼睛有耳朵我在跟你談國防的特別預算 您再跟我談嘛你說我搞了很多特別預算啊要不要再談生育補助 要不要再談租屋津貼"},{"start":1712.691,"end":1737.303,"text":"你說我搞了很多特別預算最後我想朱溫的問題我們還是要提一下朱溫的問題爆發之後其實我有提了幾個跟大家想法不一樣就是說我們發現其實邊境走私的數量查獲的數量我有去查過去10年其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入或者是自行申報或是被查獲"},{"start":1738.504,"end":1762.697,"text":"然後再來我們也發現一個狀況就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理這個也是一個很大的問題再來司法也嚴重的侵犯這個我都開過記者會把實際案例都提出來了所以現在一個問題這些東西其實是中央管當然不是都行政院但這些東西很多是中央管的可是今天我們看到爆發了這件事情結果台中盧秀恩院長他後來有出來"},{"start":1763.557,"end":1781.893,"text":"那個道歉而且有對幾個一級主管有下人事的命令那中央到目前為止似乎反正錯落地方然後就推給地方那我覺得反正民進黨常發生事情之後第一件事就是推責任千錯萬錯都不是我錯但是我想"},{"start":1782.974,"end":1787.897,"text":"時間不長了我提兩個東西部長我沒有問你問題時間暫停部長請尊重我在質詢的權利好嗎沒有問你問題我沒有問你問題謝謝部長部長我想兩大問題廚餘還有獸醫的問題廚餘的部分確實很難解決"},{"start":1805.586,"end":1833.333,"text":"那我也看到過去其實行政院農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察那日本他其實有一個環保飼料的做法當然他是不是適合我國我也想請大家看一下那再來就是獸醫的部分因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫其實就占我國獸醫的5.75%那是不是能夠增加一些誘因讓獸醫願意留下來為我們防疫盡力我想麻煩部長麻煩院長能夠參考"},{"start":1834.073,"end":1835.941,"text":"好 謝謝兩位 兩位辛苦了"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":25,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時1分）謝謝院長，我們麻煩行政院院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長早安。院長，我今天問的問題其實都是老問題，我今天不會問任何突襲性的問題，我想這也是對行政院的尊重。我現在想請教院長幾個最基本的問題，第一個，前一陣子有閃兵事件，就是不想服兵役這個問題新聞報導滿多的，我想請教一下，如果有役男覺得兵役法這個法律違憲，限制他的人身自由，自己就決定拒絕入伍，請問一下院長，這個有沒有問題？他有沒有權利說，因為我認為違憲，我聲請釋憲，所以我現在拒絕入伍，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：中華民國憲法規定服兵役是國人應盡的義務，所以服兵役這一件事情沒有違憲的空間。"],["吳委員宗憲：不行這樣講，有沒有違憲不是我們人民或院長您說了算，是大法官才可以說了算。所以我請教您，如果有役男覺得兵役法違憲，他認為限制了他的自由權利，這個時候他說我聲請釋憲了，要拒絕入伍，請問院長，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員答復過了，依照中華民國憲法，國人有服兵役的義務，所以服兵役這件事情很單純，沒有違憲的空間，委員不要用這件事情想要印證……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啊，所以你還是沒有回答我的問題嘛！院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：你不要用這件事情想要引證其他的事實。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我們不是大法官，你不能說憲法規定在那裡，所以他怎麼做就是可以或不可以，你不是大法官嘛，正常的情況是他聲請釋憲之後，然後憲法法庭（大法庭）認為這個東西沒有違憲，對不對？是這樣子才對嘛！您不能自己擔任大法官就說這樣子啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果役男個人有因為宗教、身體等其他理由，那另當別論。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你沒有給我答案。好，那我再問你第二個問題，如果人民覺得納稅、稅捐稽徵法違憲，限制了他對財產的自由處分權，請問一下，他聲請稅捐稽徵法違憲之後，可不可以就不繳稅？請問一下院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：據我所知，稅捐稽徵法相關的規定，你要聲請任何的救濟，應該要履行它必要的條件。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你還是沒回答我的問題啊！報告院長、報告院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員的問題陷阱很多……"],["吳委員宗憲：報告院長，您也是法律系畢業的……"],["卓院長榮泰：您也是檢察官出身的。"],["吳委員宗憲：法律位階：憲法，法律、命令，我現在跟你討論的是憲法位階……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，憲法位階最高。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要再跟我講法律位階的救濟，好不好？所以，院長，你不要在那邊誤導大家啦！我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我哪一件誤導大家？"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟院長報告一件事，我跟你說，你不要在那邊誤導大家……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一件？"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在跟你談論憲法層級的東西……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說憲法的位階最高。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要再跟我講稅捐稽徵法的救濟，那是法律層級。","好，那我請教你，還是這個問題，你還是沒回答我，如果人民認為稅法違憲，他聲請釋憲了，可不可以就從此不繳稅。請問一下院長，可以或不可以？請院長裁示。"],["卓院長榮泰：繳稅也是一樣，我們政府依法課徵人民各種的稅都是法律有依據的，所以……"],["吳委員宗憲：你還是沒有談到憲法嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：法律有依據的情況底下，人民繳稅這也是一種義務。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我跟你講，你現在講的東西，全國很多法律人都在聽。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊。"],["吳委員宗憲：我在跟你談憲法位階，你一定要拉到法律位階，好吧！這就是院長您的……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員透過質詢在……"],["吳委員宗憲：請教第三個問題，如果今天有一個人被判決確定有罪，要入監服刑，這時候他認為我國刑法或刑事訴訟法嚴重違憲，侵害他的人身自由權而聲請釋憲，他可不可以說我拒絕入監服刑，因為我已經聲請釋憲了？請問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：任何人被法律判決確定有罪，那就是法律最後的定讞。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝院長一直在談法律，您一直講法律對不對？立法院三讀通過的也叫法律，但是我今天看到有一位院長，您剛剛一直說法律有規定，所以人民必須遵守，那我們今天立法院三讀通過的法律，你也不遵守啊！你也是告訴了我一句「因為我認為它違憲，我聲請釋憲中，所以不用遵守」，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為立法院通過的法律案、預算案大幅增加行政院的歲出，沒有徵詢行政院、沒有指出資金的來源，這個都違反了憲法跟預算法，我一而再，再而三提醒大院各位委員，吳委員，你是法律出身，你應該清楚，你不要為了政治目的置法律於不顧。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，這不是政治目的。院長，請你不要因為政治目的而不編列。去年7月11號我主持以及去年7月16號韓院長主持的會議，立法院的議事錄記載得非常清楚，內政部、警政署都有派員列席，所以不要在那邊誤導國人說沒有徵詢了啦，不要再繼續騙了啦！好，我們看一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：你有沒有指出資金的來源？你有沒有進行必要的修法？都沒有啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，院長，你搞不清楚，我跟院長說一下，依據我國憲法訴訟法，我想我們直接列憲法訴訟法條文給院長好了，第五十二條，違憲判決認定是違憲之前，這個法律就是完全生效，總統已經公布了，完全生效，行政院就必須依法行政，行政院長沒有那種理由說「我認為違憲，所以我不做」。","再來，上一次你在那邊虧張啓楷說「你是全中華民國第一個不懂聲請釋憲中的立法委員」，但我也要跟你講，你現在做的東西叫做暫時處分，不去適用這個法律，但是依據憲法訴訟法第四十三條，它也是大法官的專屬權力啊！請問院長，一個沒有被憲法判決判定違憲的法律，您就是有遵守的義務，一個已經生效的法律，您就必須要遵守，這個你也沒有暫時處分權而不遵守……"],["卓院長榮泰：為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分？"],["吳委員宗憲：請問一下，您為什麼要違反憲法訴訟法第五十二條及第四十三條？請院長說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：為什麼大法官不能做暫時處分？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦，我是說你為什麼可以做暫時處分啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：是你們封殺了大法官，不是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：誰封殺大法官？"],["卓院長榮泰：你們把人數砍成這樣，你們又修憲法訴訟法……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，院長、院長、院長，今天是總統不提名！"],["卓院長榮泰：每次大法官同意權，你們不行使同意權，讓他不通過……"],["吳委員宗憲：不好意思，報告主席，我們時間先暫停，不好意思，這是程序問題。"],["主席：我們彼此相互尊重，也尊重委員質詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，不然這樣好不好，我現在陪你，我們現在時間暫停，我現在陪你到總統府去請命，拜託總統趕快提名大法官人選好不好？我們現在去，我陪你，我們跟他請命，我們到總統府跟總統府拜託……"],["卓院長榮泰：總統府不是我們想去就可以去。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們去請命，請總統趕快提人選，今天是總統沒有提人選到我們立法院，你們現在是本末倒置！"],["卓院長榮泰：總統沒有提過兩次嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：他提了兩次，但人選有問題啊！今天立法院是……"],["卓院長榮泰：那你們為什麼要把人數設置成這個樣子，讓大法官無法運作？"],["吳委員宗憲：你講那個什麼話！"],["卓院長榮泰：我講這個是中國話、臺灣話啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天立法委員不能審查大法官人事權嗎？今天立法院是總統府的立法局嗎？總統提了什麼人選，我只能當橡皮圖章蓋同意嗎？今天每一個大法官的候選人我們都實質的審查，我是負責任的人，我也實質的審查，你憑什麼說我們立法院立法委員審查後認為不合格的大法官，我有錯，你憑什麼講這個話？"],["卓院長榮泰：形式上有實質的審查，事實上是黨意凌駕一切，不是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：你在那邊講那個什麼話，那你今天民進黨全部都投同意，那是不是也是黨意凌駕民意？你可以這樣講嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們都支持啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我今天不是來這邊跟你吵架。"],["卓院長榮泰：你就是來吵架的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我今天問的是程序，我講一個很簡單的，憲法訴訟法第五十二條、第四十三條明明白白的在那裡，您就是一個違法的院長，您的這個作為其實就只是顯示出您是個違法的院長，而且您讓民進黨政府失信於民！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你今天是委員，不是檢察官，你無權在這裡說誰違法、不違法。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們今天三讀通過的法律，你不依法執行欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過了，你不依照憲法、預算法，大幅增加歲出，沒有徵詢行政院意見、沒有指出資金來源。"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，好，沒關係，你今天要當大法官，那你就去當你的大法官。我請教你，你講了那麼久，你不依法編列的法律依據是什麼？請你告訴我條文依據是哪一條？"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一條不依法編列？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啊！現在警察人員人事條例、軍人待遇條例，我們在4月27號已經三讀通過跟6月29號已經三讀通過。"],["卓院長榮泰：我說過了，行政院已經說過，只要釋憲結果合憲，我們就依法編列，而且追溯，如果違憲，那我們不編列，如果我現在編了，萬一違憲的話，我變成違憲的院長。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，我覺得您一直在兜圈子啦！我講一個很簡單的，沒有所謂釋憲中就可以拒絕依法行政。我剛剛問你的那三個問題，人民都沒有辦法因為聲請釋憲中而不去做這些國民的義務……"],["卓院長榮泰：那憲法規定得很清楚，沒有違憲的空間。"],["吳委員宗憲：依法行政是行政院的義務，你到現在還是告訴不了我，你的法條依據到底是什麼，我現在已經告訴你，法條依據為何！憲法訴訟法的依據為何！但是偉大的行政院長，你還是告訴不了我，你的法律依據為何！這個就是你不依法行政，全世界的民主國家有人這樣幹嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算法跟憲法規定得很清楚，憲法跟預算法規定得很清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：中華民國歷任的行政院有人這樣幹嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！歷任的……"],["吳委員宗憲：每一位法律人都知道一句話，您也是法律系畢業的，惡法亦法，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：歷屆的國會也沒有人這樣幹啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：惡法亦法！"],["卓院長榮泰：你承認你是惡法嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：惡法亦法！我沒有告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：你承認你是惡法嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為是惡法，我們必須救濟。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，你不用在那邊耍嘴皮子啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是惡法我們就必須救濟。"],["吳委員宗憲：我是說法律系都懂一句話叫做惡法亦法。"],["卓院長榮泰：好啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：即使你今天再厭惡這個法律，你也必須依法行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員盡可以跟國人講惡法亦法，但是行政院不能違憲！"],["吳委員宗憲：唉！院長，憲政制度之下向立法院負責就是你的憲政義務，你今天在違憲，因為今天立法院三讀通過的法律，你不依法執行，這個就是違反我國的憲政制度以及違反行政院必須向立法院負責的憲法規定。"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院通過的任何法律也不能破壞憲政體制。"],["吳委員宗憲：請讓大法官來講這句話，不要你自己下定論！"],["卓院長榮泰：大法官就被封殺啦！"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛已經跟你講，我現在可以陪你到總統府去，現在是總統不願意提大法官人選，請他提出來，搞不好他第三波提的大法官人選，我們都很喜歡，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：希望如此！"],["吳委員宗憲：立法院不是總統府的立法局、不是橡皮圖章。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：我們必須就每一個人去嚴加審核，這是我的義務。"],["卓院長榮泰：在人事同意權上總是黨意凌駕一切。"],["吳委員宗憲：也請行政院負責好您的義務，把事情做好，依法行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：我的義務就是守護憲法、守護國家。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是你今天就是在破壞憲法制度，我必須跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：是大院的法律通過之後破壞了憲政體制。"],["吳委員宗憲：只有獨裁國家可以行政院說了算……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有我說了算！我等待大法官的解釋，我沒有做定論。"],["吳委員宗憲：正常的民主國家，行政院必須服從立法院三讀通過的法律，你有覆議權，你可以行使覆議權……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有做定論。"],["吳委員宗憲：你可以聲請釋憲，這個都沒有問題！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是在大法官宣告違憲之前，依據憲法訴訟法，它就是一個有效、必須遵循的法律，但是你今天沒有這麼做，很遺憾的，您今天就是一個違法的院長！而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民……"],["卓院長榮泰：我再說一次……"],["吳委員宗憲：您今天就是一個違法的院長，而且你讓民進黨政府長期失信於民，您就是違法的院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我再說一次，您是立法委員，你不是檢察官。"],["吳委員宗憲：而且你讓民進黨政府失信於民。"],["卓院長榮泰：你是立法委員，你不是檢察官，你無權在這裡指責任何人違法不違法。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天就是因為我是立法委員，所以立法院三讀通過的法律，我發現有一個院長不願意執行，所以我才可以這麼講……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你三讀通過的法律破壞了憲政體制。"],["吳委員宗憲：然後我再告訴院長一句話，您今天說我不是檢察官，不可以說你違法，那我也反告訴您一句，您不是院長，你不可以說它違憲！"],["卓院長榮泰：我等待大法官的決定，我沒有說它違憲不違憲，大法官說合憲我就編，違憲我就不能編！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以你現在就是違反憲法訴訟法第五十二條，非常清楚了嘛！你剛剛這句話就是違反了。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：你回去把條文看清楚吧！","我跟你講，這是一個法治國，我們是法治國，所以請依法行政，結果連依法行政這個東西您都不願意做，好吧！那我也是無奈啦！一個行政院卻不依法行政。","我跟您報告為什麼制度重要，民主國家為什麼制度非常重要？就是因為民主國家的政黨會不停的輪替，政黨不停的輪替有不同的領導者，領導的風格不一樣，我們為了怕民主國家走向獨裁，所以我們有一個嚴格、剛性的制度在那裡，不管誰執政，都必須服從那個剛性的制度，國家才不會大亂！今天如果換了一個政黨執政，假設民眾黨執政了，貴黨如果立了一個福國利民的法律，民眾黨說：我認為這個法律違憲，我不想做，我等釋憲啊！這樣子國家就大亂了！所以憲法訴訟法有一定的規範，就是可以下暫時處分，暫時不適用是只有大法官可以作出。大法官宣告這個條文違憲之前，它就是一個生效的法律，我們都必須要遵循。所以我在這邊跟院長報告，如果你一直搞不清楚這個制度，我剛剛已經把我國制度講完了，我講得那麼清楚，您還是不認同或您有您的論述，我在這邊跟院長報告一件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：懂法的人都非常清楚、懂法的人都非常清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，你講你的，我講我的啦！我也跟您報告一件事，我的同學在大學當教授，他之前還是研究所所長，他打電話跟我說，院長您是現在學生在嘲笑的對象，在憲法課程講五權分立、在講權力分立原則的時候，您是學生的負面教材！您是學生拿出來說：這個東西是不對的也違反權力分立。我們都是法律人，我第一次質詢您的時候，我一直希望你當我們中華民國的大阿哥，可以為國家好好地謀福利，結果我今天看到您現在變成法律系學生的嘲笑對象。如果院長覺得您這個說法是有依據的，麻煩可以發動學者來打臉我，來打臉憲法訴訟法第五十二條，我都歡迎嘛！但是當你講不出來，只剩下講：我認為它違憲、我聲請釋憲中，所以我可以不做。這完全違反憲法訴訟法第五十二條，違反第四十三條，您卻不講……"],["卓院長榮泰：法律系的老師也曾經打電話給我，認為我們應該堅守憲法的立場。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，您這樣的講法，以後人民只要覺得哪一條違憲而聲請釋憲，就不用遵循了，因為堅守憲法！這是您的說法，謝謝院長給我們這種劃時代的憲政概念。"],["卓院長榮泰：你這就是誤導，你用你的法律常識在誤導國人，這個非常嚴重！你誤導國人任何行為都可以這樣來做，這樣非常嚴重！"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，沒關係，你在這邊講的所有話，歷史自有公斷。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我們就在這裡，歷史自有公斷。你也還年輕，我們的未來也都還很長，歷史自有公斷。憲法訴訟法我已經講完了，清清楚楚條文在那裡！","我再請教院長，您說大法官說合憲之後會回溯去發放，請問一下，如果下個月就說合憲了，你們是要一次發，還是分次發？利息怎麼算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會先把預算準備好，希望能夠在合憲的情況底下，把財源找出來，把預算準備好，能夠回溯一次發就一次發，但是如果這是違憲的，我當然不能發。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然啊！違憲當然不行……"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在發了，如果是違憲的，我馬上變成違憲的院長，不是嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！院長，你又在亂講話了！任何法律被大法官宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法的，你不要這樣亂講！我剛剛一直跟你講憲法訴訟法第五十二條嘛！任何一個東西在被判決違憲之前，所有作為都合法，所有發出去的錢都是合法的啦！你不要說你這樣變成違憲院長，你不要這樣子說自己，好不好？這樣我聽了會不忍心啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：你不是院長，你沒有辦法了解我的心情。"],["吳委員宗憲：我這樣聽了會不忍心。"],["卓院長榮泰：你沒有辦法了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：只要被大法庭宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法、合憲，好不好？謝謝院長。但是明年你有沒有編一個或有負債的準備啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：或有什麼？"],["吳委員宗憲：就是你現在說的這筆錢，萬一下個月、下下個月說合憲了，你要怎麼來得及準備？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會先把預算找出來啊！如果這筆預算需要追加，我就請求大院同意追加，同意之後我們就來編，但這個前提是它必須是合憲的，才有後續的這些討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，我剛剛已經講得非常的完整，我想今天我們兩位對於憲法以及法律的論述，全國人民、全國的法律學者都會看在眼裡。當然院長您講的那句話沒錯，大家叫你要合憲不能違憲，這句話沒有錯，我也很認同您這句話，但是可以宣告違憲與否的人不是院長您啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員我說一句話，您也有志於參選地方首長，如果未來地方議會增加預算不經過你的同意，你作何感想？"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，我請問一下，這個要直接對外公告，你們趕快做喔！如果合憲之後要怎麼分期？有沒有利息？怎麼樣入帳？這個部分你們要趕快對外公告怎麼做，而不要等到宣告合憲之後，然後就匆匆忙忙又搞不出東西來，我是希望這樣，因為我跟您說很多待退的人或退休的人，其實這些錢很多都是他們很重要的家用，譬如說他的醫藥費、長輩的醫藥費等等，他們都很在意這件事情。","所以我想麻煩您能夠承諾兩件事情，第一個就是要公告追溯補回的SOP，如果說合憲之後，追溯補回的SOP是什麼？你不用很細項地講，但是至少一張A4的紙論述清楚，讓人民能夠安心。第二個是開放權利名冊供個人查詢，能夠查詢自己，因為上一次我有問過劉世芳部長，他說目前有三萬八千多名警消適用，是不是能夠讓每個人查詢一下他到底適不適用？因為現在大家都一直在想說自己到底符不符合規定，每個人都搞不清楚，一直打電話來問，也造成我的困擾，當然我很願意幫民眾查詢，可是目前就是沒有查詢的管道，是不是可以麻煩你能夠請主管機關趕快把系統建置起來，讓個人能夠查詢他是不是符合發放的資格，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分麻煩您。"],["卓院長榮泰：真的有那麼一天，內政部跟所有的財主單位一定會把程序跟預算準備好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。下一個問題，我還是想跟你請教一下，我們來看國家的預算，其實國家的預算，一個餅就是這麼大塊嘛，這個餅就這麼大塊的情況下，如果我們要用很多的特別預算或是某一個項目必須增加大量預算的時候，勢必會去侵害到其他原本需要支付的部分。我自己看了一下我們的國防預算，當然我完全認為要支持國防，而且我也請各位不要亂扣帽子，因為我家老小都在臺灣這塊土地上，不要懷疑我們誓死捍衛這塊土地安全的決心。但是，我想請教您一個問題，我看到2026年國防預算再加一些特別預算，加起來要到九千多億，對不對？如果說我們今天的餅就這麼大塊，國家就收這麼多稅金，我想請教你，突然在國防部分要增加這麼多錢的情況下，我們要補這個洞，第一個，當然就是用加稅的方式來解決；第二個，可能就要從一些公共投資、社福、醫療、教育等等的預算挪到國防。我想請問一下，大量增加的國防預算，我們要怎麼去支付這個錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在的國防預算今年來看達到3.32%，未來我們逐年朝5%來增加，這是基於兩個原因：第一是國家財政的能力，第二是國防的需求。我們也嚴守財政紀律，所以未來如果這樣做的話，勢必要調整支出結構。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，就是您剛剛講的調整支出結構，所以這個錢到最後只能從公共建設、社福、醫療、教育等等這方面，還有更多的不同項目裡面去挖錢過來，但是這個部分你們要明確地告訴人民，我們大量地購買武器，大量地支出國防預算，甚至總統說2030年要到GDP的5%，算起來就相當於1.43兆，等於是我國國家總預算的一半都要花在國防上面。","我不是說國防不重要，國防非常重要，我一直覺得我們要強化國防是百分之百一定要的，但是我們必須買臺灣適合用的武器，而且要買夠，這我絕對支持；第二個，我們要買能夠交貨的武器，這是我對於國防採購的一個最基本的想法，就是第一個買臺灣適合用的武器，而且要買夠，第二個要買會交貨的武器，這個很重要，因為等到2030年要拉到GDP5%、搞到1.43兆，國家一半的錢都拿去國防採購……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有到一半。"],["吳委員宗憲：不到一半啦，當然你精算不到一半，但是四成有吧。像這個狀況下，我說你會排擠到其他的東西嘛，上次沈伯洋委員對於光是普發人民1萬現金這件事情要2,400億，他就說窮臺了！配合中國大陸解放軍要窮臺，要讓他們進攻臺灣！結果我們如果搞了1.43兆的話，這個會不會造成窮臺？其實是我自己的擔心啦，因為我剛剛講自主防衛極端的重要，我百分之百支持，但是如果排擠掉其他，讓臺灣越來越窮，我們的年輕人越來越沒有希望，或父母他們能夠接受到的醫療品質越來越差，或小孩子的受教越來越不行，我是擔心這個點，不要說我擔心這個點就是我阻礙國防，其實沒有，我積極的、百分之百的認同要增加國防，就像我剛剛講的軍人的薪水，您知不知道軍人的薪水，因為我們三讀通過之後，很多軍校招生是滿招的，都是創之前很多年來最好的招生狀況？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為今年我們也增加了171億，包括追加預算的60億在內，增加了171億。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，非常好，這個我也是要跟您報告，當我們一直要增加國防預算的同時，其實軍人的薪水也是國防預算的一部分，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年增加了171億。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以是不是增加軍人的薪水，讓他們在國內消費，刺激經濟更好，而不是買爆武器。買爆武器能不能夠帶來最後的和平，其實我個人是質疑啦，您在院長的任內，人家說您是史上最愛覆議的院長，而且您任內有4個特別預算同時在執行，之前已經規劃了，現在執行，或是在規劃中的，共有4個，我算了一下，大概1.2兆到1.5兆之間，其實還滿驚人的，所以我們必須要替人民看守荷包。另外，我們還知道一件事情，就是國家的預算如果是用特別條例的方式去做，編列特別預算的話，它是借錢，而借錢是人民要還耶！感覺是什麼？就像我今天去吃喝玩樂，結果帳單丟給我兒子去繳。我現在就擔心，在這樣的狀況下，你有沒有在任內能夠把這些特別預算借的錢還清的計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們每年的歲計賸餘都必須依法來返還債務，這都是依法在進行的，所以每年都有固定的比例要返還債務，這是一定的。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以您任內是一定還不完啦，所以我在這邊跟院長報告，當我們對於軍、公、教、警、消的待遇、退休金，這麼跟他們斤斤計較的時候，但是對於國外採購的武器，即使對方遲不交貨，卻束手無策，或者是今天一艘潛艦，也一直沒有達到交艦的期程，其實我們很難過，因為這每一筆都是幾千億、幾百億的事情，大家對這些好像不是很在乎，可是對於我國的軍公教，卻一再的跟他們計較，我想院長你還是要特別注意啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然在乎啊！我跟委員說，我們第一個考慮的是財政的能力，第二個考慮的是國防需求，就是在財政永續、世代正義跟國防實力底下……"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們依照財政紀律來考量……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是我們很清楚，國防……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們考量的是整個……"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，你也當過兵，國防最重要的三個要素，就是人、裝備、維護，對不對？缺一不可……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們考量的是整個國家的需求……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以買爆武器，買爆……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是買爆武器……"],["吳委員宗憲：買爆維護，但是人不夠不行啦！我們編現比……"],["卓院長榮泰：國防有需要，當然要武器啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：您可以否認我們現在軍方的編現比狀況不佳嗎？您可以否認嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：否認什麼？"],["吳委員宗憲：我們現在軍方的編現比狀況不佳。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是敵人對我的威脅日益增強，我們必須增強實力。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我剛剛講了，強化國防，國防的三個重要面向是人、設備、維護，三者必須均衡。"],["卓院長榮泰：很謝謝委員能夠有這樣的體認。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，三者必須均衡，而不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：國防的實力，報告委員……"],["吳委員宗憲：我看到的是什麼？5萬塊買一張椅子，120塊買一瓶水，後來刪了50億，是我們爆料出來了，才刪了這50億，如果這50億拿來加薪有多好！我跟你講，我還是一個想法，國防我絕對支持，但是國家安全不能夠帶來財政崩潰，也不能帶來民生排擠……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們第一個考量的是財政實力啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：更不能帶來國軍的受害，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的財政能力必須先考量啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：因為您搞了很多的特別預算，這個是債留子孫，你也知道您任內是還不完的，這個會債留子孫……"],["卓院長榮泰：包括馬太鞍溪的特別預算，你也有意見嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：包括馬太鞍溪的特別預算，你也有意見嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在在跟你談國防，你跟我扯馬太鞍溪。"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我搞了很多特別預算啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：唉！好啦，隨便你啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們在意的是整個國家的財政紀律……"],["吳委員宗憲：我在跟你談國防……"],["卓院長榮泰：我所在意的是整個國家的財政紀律……"],["吳委員宗憲：特別預算有很多種……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不能只考慮五顆雞蛋或三顆雞蛋……"],["吳委員宗憲：院長，院長，我跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不是在考慮那兩顆雞蛋的問題哦！"],["吳委員宗憲：今天大家都有眼睛、有耳朵，我在跟你談國防的特別預算，您在跟我談馬太鞍溪……"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我搞了很多特別預算啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：那你要不要再談低收入戶？要不要再談生育補助？要不要談租屋津貼？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我搞了很多特別預算，現在哪有國防特別預算？"],["吳委員宗憲：最後，我想豬瘟的問題還是要提一下，豬瘟的問題爆發之後，其實我有提了幾個跟大家不一樣的想法，就是我們發現邊境走私查獲的數量，我有去查了過去10年的紀錄，其實是遠高於民眾從國外帶入的，不管是自行申報或被查獲的；然後我們也發現一個狀況，就是廚餘到底該怎麼處理，這也是一個很大問題；再來，司法也嚴重地輕判，這個我都開過記者會，也把實際案例都提出來了。","所以現在有一個問題，這些東西其實是中央管，當然不都是行政院，但這些東西很多是中央管的，可是今天我們看到，爆發了這件事情，結果臺中盧秀燕市長後來有出來道歉，而且有對幾個一級主管下人事命令。那中央到目前為止似乎就是，反正錯的都是地方，然後就推給地方。我覺得，反正民進黨常常是發生事情之後，第一件事就是推責任啦！千錯萬錯都不是我的錯。時間不長了，我提兩個東西……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，所有防疫的過程……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我沒有問你問題，先暫停！"],["陳部長駿季：都是地方的稽查出了問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長！"],["主席：請尊重委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，請尊重我在質詢的權力好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：你不能說都是中央的問題啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有問你問題……"],["主席：請尊重委員的質詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有問你問題！謝謝部長。","部長，我想兩大問題，廚餘還有獸醫的問題。廚餘的部分確實很難解決，我也看到過去農業部其實有編列預算讓大家去日本考察，日本有環保飼料的一個作法，當然它是不是適合我國，我也想請大家看一下。","再來就是獸醫的部分，因為現在從事農牧場的獸醫只占我國獸醫的5.75%，那是不是能夠增加一些誘因，讓獸醫願意留下來為我們的防疫盡力？我想麻煩部長、麻煩院長能夠參考。好，謝謝兩位，兩位辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員。賴委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴瑞隆書面質詢：","一、落實「大南方新矽谷推動方案」，串聯南部半導體S廊帶","(一)高雄楠梓、仁武、橋頭三大園區形成「南部半導體S廊帶」，台積電楠梓廠區P1已量產、P2裝機中，P3預計2026年上半年導入機台，P4已取得施工執照，P5正進入設計階段，整體產能將涵蓋2奈米至1.6奈米先進製程。為確保產線穩定量產，請中央協助相關用地、水電供應及周邊道路建設。","(二)橋頭科學園區污水廠與數位創新大樓統包工程應加速完工，仁武產業園區第二期委託開發案亦應儘速啟動。","(三)同時請教育部與國科會持續推動「南部半導體人才培育基地計畫」，整合中山大學、陽明交大、清大等南部據點，加速落地專業學位與產學聯盟課程，打造在地高階人才鏈。","二、因應美國對等關稅照及產業升級等挑戰，政府應多元化顧傳統產業","大高雄地區長期以來以製造業為主，包括鋼鐵、石化、扣件螺絲、金屬製造、機械加工、造船業等為重要生產基地，傳統產業對高雄經濟具有重大貢獻，但目前面臨的主要挑戰為升級壓力大，面對環保、工安、國際分工調整、技術與附加價值提升等方面皆有挑戰。請行政院協助：","(一)擴充「智慧製造輔導計畫」及「傳統產業創新加值計畫」，補助IoT、自動化與數位製程升級。","(二)鼓勵傳產導入碳盤查、節能減碳技術，協助取得國際綠色認證。","(三)建立「高雄傳產升級基金」或專案融資機制，協助中小企業設備汰換。","(四)透過「新南向市場拓展方案」，協助傳產出口多元化，降低對特定市場依賴。","三、持續支持「亞灣2.0智慧科技創新園區」與未來「亞灣3.0大亞灣計畫」","(一)亞灣2.0計畫七年投入170億元，帶動AIoT、金融科技、影視製作與國際會展產業聚落，已吸引逾270億投資。建議中央持續協助招商，引入國際級研發與數位服務企業。","(二)針對後續「大亞灣計畫」，建議行政院支持高雄市政府規劃205兵工廠轉型為智慧產業與都市更新示範區，保留約15公頃作為亞灣森林公園，並規劃結合智慧住宅與綠色交通，另規劃興建大巨蛋場域，請中央共同協助招商與土地活化，結合捷運紅線及輕軌，形成TOD示範軸帶。","四、加速北高雄產業園區及白埔產業園區開發建設及招商","(一)北高雄產業園區目前規劃為傳產設廠首選，預計2027年6月完成園區公共設施，園區聯外道路台39線（台19甲~大莊路），目前綜合規畫暨環評中，預計2031年完工通車，請行政院協助加速綜合規畫暨環評，以及聯外道路建設時程。","(二)白埔產業園區於2025年9月23日經內政部都委會審議通過，為「大南方新矽谷推動方案」核心節點之一，預計提供約53公頃半導體用地。請行政院督促國科會及經濟部評估升格為科學園區之可行性，整合楠梓、橋頭、白埔形成南部先進製程廊帶。","五、能源轉型與淨零產業鏈","高雄碳排佔全國五分之一，推動2050淨零城市發展自治條例、碳平台、商轉平台等政策，但產業端仍需中央法制與補助支持。請行政院協助高雄淨零產業鏈之推動，包括法制、治理、技術、經濟及人才等面向。"],["主席：下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}}