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\"請部長能夠詳細說明我知道他是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組一個燃氣機組蓋好之後他會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對 但是問題是2025已經快結束了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 102.295, \"end\": 102.415, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 102.415, \"end\": 102.856, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"詳\"}, {\"word\": \"細\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 102.856, \"end\": 103.276, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 103.276, \"end\": 103.496, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 103.496, \"end\": 103.656, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 103.656, \"end\": 104.236, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 104.236, \"end\": 104.296, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 104.296, \"end\": 104.416, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 104.416, \"end\": 104.656, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"燃\", \"start\": 104.656, \"end\": 106.417, 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 927.919, \"end\": 928.179, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 928.179, \"end\": 928.359, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 928.359, \"end\": 928.379, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 945.92, \"end\": 945.94, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:14,563 --> 00:00:21,166\n主席各位本院同仁及列席官員大家早主席有請行政院左院長請左院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:31,431 --> 00:00:32,616\n燕國元好院長早\n\n3\n00:00:34,298 --> 00:00:59,467\n院長台中火力發電廠在我的選區5支煙囪10部燃煤機組那10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬千瓦依照經濟部的規劃直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組那現在的這個燃氣機組的部分每部裝置容量為130萬千瓦所以6部總共是780萬千瓦\n\n4\n00:01:01,528 --> 00:01:27,413\n那中火目前這10部燃煤機組是全國最大也是全世界第4名的這個燃煤電廠那依照環境部公布的數據中火是台中市這個排放大戶PM2.5排放佔台中市固定污染源的13.5%硫氧化物佔台中市的66.1%氮氧化物排放佔65.6%說了這麼多我們就是要看到說\n\n5\n00:01:28,891 --> 00:01:40,396\n中火的這個燃煤機組的拆除計畫有沒有全面的拆除計畫不要零星的不要這個片面的\n\n6\n00:01:42,295 --> 00:02:05,062\n請部長能夠詳細說明我知道他是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組一個燃氣機組蓋好之後他會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對但是問題是2025已經快結束了\n\n7\n00:02:08,155 --> 00:02:23,666\n2026所以這樣子的我們要看到的是期程不是只有時間拆除計劃其實我跟這個台電這邊所知已經一個禮拜了如果有拆除計劃應該早就在手上不會拖了那麼久還沒有表示沒有這個計劃是不是這樣\n\n8\n00:02:25,037 --> 00:02:44,554\n85年我們就是在規劃在一起的兩部的新的燃氣機組因為新的燃氣上來以後我知道嘛就是說燃氣上來我們的燃煤才會除液第一步第二步就把它拆掉是沒有說你現在說的就好像是乾就是沒有計畫沒有計畫所以現在其實從一開始\n\n9\n00:02:46,255 --> 00:03:07,389\n在地方在跟民眾說明台電拍胸部保證說一氣換一美而且保證拆除當時民眾我們的鄉親為了要讓減少空污讓這個政策可以趕快落實所以也都相信了但是我們近期看到的是高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機\n\n10\n00:03:09,010 --> 00:03:36,537\n偷偷的重啟啊被抓包啊對不對那另外新達電廠他已經除役了咧那另外新達電廠三四號機也是在半年前就重啟啊所以你現在跟人家講說除役除役備用但是還是重啟啊所以你沒有拆除的話你現在跟民眾承諾了民眾不相信那備用的話只有在緊急時候上次大理短短時間而已我跟你講就是因為這些事件\n\n11\n00:03:37,838 --> 00:03:53,130\n還發生了公安意外所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾就是說你跟他講說除役除役之後可是緊急備用又偷偷的重啟所以這樣子的情況民眾要看到的時候拆除所以我們看到你們提供的這個期審時間表\n\n12\n00:03:54,571 --> 00:03:57,313\n所以我在這邊我是希望院長要請院長跟台電要求我們這個一個完整的採取計畫\n\n13\n00:04:13,625 --> 00:04:26,877\n細部的計畫怎麼做請台電提供好不好台電有很清楚的時程的規劃我還要求說不能到2034不要往前拉你現在裡面有252631323334到2034年還那麼多年中間有空了好幾年空檔我希望他往前拉\n\n14\n00:04:40,751 --> 00:05:06,922\n你說的2025第一步機箱沒動啊2034年會達成完全無美嘛齁那但是之前的那個行程就是他的程序我們會做一些規劃我跟你講啦齁就是說你們這些騎乘齁這樣子但是沒有辦法說服民眾啦因為沒有看到作為嘛沒有看到作為所以我們現在說的2025就還沒動啊2025已經快時間要過了了所以當初啊台電民眾的質疑齁就是說\n\n15\n00:05:07,984 --> 00:05:22,532\n用騙的去讓他們去承諾去答應以燃氣換燃煤其實我們要的是真正落實拆除而不只是廚藝所以我想在這邊跟委員報告新的燃氣機組正在加緊的\n\n16\n00:05:24,020 --> 00:05:38,474\n裝置當中那只要升新的燃氣機組好了那麼1、2號燃煤機組就會拆除那你完整的計劃要出來啊這沒有欺騙我所要不到資料嘛如果你有計劃計劃應該早就做好啦就是先把新的燃氣機組\n\n17\n00:05:39,715 --> 00:06:04,631\n這個目前施工的進度到什麼程度頂台電給出拆除計畫讓台中市民才能夠安心不然不要口號不要讓人家覺得說偷偷重啟也是你說要拆除的也是你那個不是偷偷啦沒有啦那個是允許的法律上允許的啦在緊急狀況的時候它稍微運轉而已啦那現在沒有緊急的狀況平常它是不會運轉的\n\n18\n00:06:07,025 --> 00:06:25,634\n那我再跟你問一下接下來我要問的就是說台中火力發電廠未來還要除了這些燃氣的機組之外還要增設天然氣儲氣槽那目前中火是不是有計畫要增加這個部分有沒有有沒有計畫跟進度\n\n19\n00:06:26,553 --> 00:06:50,989\n目前有的是現有的六座加上在建的兩座還有通過的四座所以台中港區已經有12座的儲氣槽現在正在環評在環評就是台電的部分在環評台中港部分接收站的部分整個就是在環評當中環評有通過嗎\n\n20\n00:06:52,276 --> 00:07:15,285\n還沒有還沒有通過還沒有送出去啦打算要送現在台中港區包括龍井沙鹿烏日這一帶整個海線的民眾都在擔心說到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽那到底安不安全那所以說安全啦儲氣槽沒有發生意外過不是我跟你講\n\n21\n00:07:16,924 --> 00:07:29,760\n報告如果出來了台電未來申請的要增設的這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來請給本席辦公室也要提醒我在這邊提醒部長一定要\n\n22\n00:07:30,458 --> 00:07:48,840\n跟當地所有的居民做一個良好的溝通不只是溝通啦還要宣導未來的風險可能風險在哪裡怎麼樣預防突發的事件不會在居民的附近會比較遠離居民的地方你有到現場看過嗎\n\n23\n00:07:50,868 --> 00:08:11,595\n你沒有去嘛你怎麼知道遠離居民我們就生活在那個地方我跟你講台中港區下那個勒那個大型的那個Outlet呢Outlet就在旁邊啊那每天出入多少人啊對不對所以我跟你講部長我們要實地去了解關於這些預防的事情我跟台電要的資料光從111年\n\n24\n00:08:14,025 --> 00:08:27,303\n到現在就有八起的公安事故台電喔這是有通報的那包含未通報的不知道有多少那台電未來要在這邊興建多座的這個天然氣儲氣槽再加上原有已經設置的\n\n25\n00:08:29,045 --> 00:08:47,470\n正在建的再加上通過的已經有12座了那台電未來現在正在環評的要增加多少這些東西都集中在台東港區我每一次總諮詢我都關心台電的狀況因為以氣換煤的話一定要有接收站跟\n\n26\n00:08:48,446 --> 00:09:15,520\n當然嘛沒有錯嘛所以台灣的部分也不是全部集中在不是你們要增加這個三接的觀塘也好你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽這個部分然後降低供應中斷的風險但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受啊讓整個海線來承受所以我說你事前的防範事前的一個宣導這個是最重要的\n\n27\n00:09:16,457 --> 00:09:40,566\n署警準備不可少啦但是一旦我們都不希望發生任何事故但是如果一旦發生了那絕對不是小事情民眾承受不起沒有人可以承受政府也承受不起那所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔相關的配套一定要到位不管是怎麼樣安全的評估是第一的民眾的安全是第一的當然永遠比發電更重要\n\n28\n00:09:43,735 --> 00:10:00,132\n再來我再請教我們今年7月份在台中烏日海線這個豪大雨發生了幾次豪大雨不知道院長有沒有注意但是對於當地的居民這個2008年卡梅基颱風對於整個中台灣的重創\n\n29\n00:10:01,033 --> 00:10:29,796\n尤其在大渡烏日地區那個水患非常嚴重也全國造成了20人的死亡那這個損失無法估計那也造成很多家庭的破碎所以對當地人民來說可以說歷歷在目那種悲慘的教訓信眾非常害怕我跟台中市水利局討論過相關的案件透過資料我們知道說所有的這些抽水站運作都是正常的\n\n30\n00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:42,608\n大理溪、烏溪部分包括漱王碑抽水站、五峒嶺抽水站、中興抽水站、芋園抽水站、宮廷抽水站等等抽水量都正常但是我們發現問題了就是說這些\n\n31\n00:10:48,373 --> 00:11:12,772\n排水出去的河川他的水位比淹水地區還高已經高過淹水區所以等於說抽水抽出來水要排出去排不出去那排不出去之後呢包括大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況之前南部的颱風南部的風災水災也是這樣子的狀況所以我在這邊要請院長是不是請我們經濟部跟部長要求水利署\n\n32\n00:11:13,413 --> 00:11:22,971\n做一個通盤的檢討針對全國全國這個國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的\n\n33\n00:11:23,710 --> 00:11:40,942\n這整個河川流域我們都要做全體的一個規劃可不可以院長部長因為這一次的728豪雨的確是比平常大很多我們治水的平均標準都超過這的確是這樣這個當然是氣候變遷的影響\n\n34\n00:11:44,502 --> 00:11:56,689\n的確也因為這樣子院長給我們的四年一千億來就是地方政府協助地方政府所有整治的治水的部分縣市管河川還包括這個\n\n35\n00:11:58,857 --> 00:12:23,326\n集水區的淨流分擔或者是滯洪池的部分我們會全部盤點起來現在有關於台中的部分在2025年11月10號我們經過審查以後會利用如果公有地的部分我們先來施作因為施有地還是要徵收但是公有的部分如果可以做淨流分擔的部分我們就先做\n\n36\n00:12:23,971 --> 00:12:49,781\n河川流域大多數都是公有地都是河川地對不對所以你怎麼會說這種情況我們台風又到了颱風又到鳳凰颱風現在對台灣又產生新的一個威脅所以這個事情不是我們現在講你們現在回應是應該事前就要準備預防所以現在我剛剛提到的烏日大都地區的光是這兩處就有好多處是這個\n\n37\n00:12:52,913 --> 00:13:09,570\n抽水排放的河川水位高於這個淹水區所以這部分不是只有台中會發生各地都在發生都呈現出來經濟部水利署一直有準備所以剛剛部長所說的就是未來四年我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫\n\n38\n00:13:11,766 --> 00:13:32,084\n繼續將這個地方比方說滯洪池增加實際上過去為什麼有做到預算規模前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式的移動式的抽水站移動式的抽水站是沒有說是可以調度的可以調度但是大型的抽水站本身就有那個需求所以他才會那個設計才會有整個河川的流量那個排水量他們才會去設計這個抽水站對不對\n\n39\n00:13:34,446 --> 00:13:58,806\n那這個移動式的當然也要再增加由現場發生的時候在發生當下由指揮中心來做一個調度這個都合理的這個本來就有在做所以為什麼現在我講的是說他的水位已經高過淹水區啦那水位高過淹水區他怎麼抽你再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊所以為什麼要淨流分攤就是這樣沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區\n\n40\n00:14:00,376 --> 00:14:18,661\n我想我們請院長部長一定要關心要放在這裡因為現在我們不敢再發聲因為極端氣候來臨我們的力道要加強跟地方的合作要更多不只颱風光是我們現在的一個\n\n41\n00:14:20,101 --> 00:14:48,080\n這樣子的一個極端氣候強降雨就會造成我們這個人口新興地區還有這些一些部分的一個行政區都會造成淹水為什麼因為雨水下水道不足過去幾十年前的這個都市計畫排水計畫已經無法來滿足我們現在的一個城市發展那有一些包括我們台中市過去台中縣海縣山城屯區它不是在一個完整的都市計畫內\n\n42\n00:14:49,241 --> 00:15:15,044\n所以我們很多地方已經人口聚集非常多但是他還是沒有這種雨水下水道所以這個部分我知道這個水利署這邊還有我們營建署這一邊他們都有在有在有在加強有在跟進但是我希望院長院長跟部長我們可以制定一個專案一個計劃針對我們這個國內我們現在尤其六都包含這些縣市人口新興的地區\n\n43\n00:15:15,925 --> 00:15:28,379\n人口新新的地區新的發展區那對於雨水下水道的部分來做一個更全面的規劃然後補這個協助地方政府來更多的一個預算\n\n44\n00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:45,940\n好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n14563\t21166\t主席各位本院同仁及列席官員大家早主席有請行政院左院長請左院長備詢\n31431\t32616\t燕國元好 院長早\n34298\t59467\t院長台中火力發電廠在我的選區5支煙囪10部燃煤機組那10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬千瓦依照經濟部的規劃直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組那現在的這個燃氣機組的部分每部裝置容量為130萬千瓦所以6部總共是780萬千瓦\n61528\t87413\t那中火目前這10部燃煤機組是全國最大也是全世界第4名的這個燃煤電廠那依照環境部公布的數據中火是台中市這個排放大戶PM2.5排放佔台中市固定污染源的13.5%硫氧化物佔台中市的66.1%氮氧化物排放佔65.6%說了這麼多我們就是要看到說\n88891\t100396\t中火的這個燃煤機組的拆除計畫有沒有全面的拆除計畫不要零星的不要這個片面的\n102295\t125062\t請部長能夠詳細說明我知道他是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組一個燃氣機組蓋好之後他會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對 但是問題是2025已經快結束了\n128155\t143666\t2026所以這樣子的我們要看到的是期程不是只有時間拆除計劃其實我跟這個台電這邊所知已經一個禮拜了如果有拆除計劃應該早就在手上不會拖了那麼久還沒有表示沒有這個計劃是不是這樣\n145037\t164554\t85年我們就是在規劃在一起的兩部的新的燃氣機組因為新的燃氣上來以後我知道嘛就是說燃氣上來我們的燃煤才會除液第一步第二步就把它拆掉是沒有說你現在說的就好像是乾就是沒有計畫沒有計畫所以現在其實從一開始\n166255\t187389\t在地方在跟民眾說明台電拍胸部保證說一氣換一美而且保證拆除當時民眾我們的鄉親為了要讓減少空污讓這個政策可以趕快落實所以也都相信了但是我們近期看到的是高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機\n189010\t216537\t偷偷的重啟啊被抓包啊對不對那另外新達電廠他已經除役了咧那另外新達電廠三四號機也是在半年前就重啟啊所以你現在跟人家講說除役除役備用但是還是重啟啊所以你沒有拆除的話你現在跟民眾承諾了民眾不相信那備用的話只有在緊急時候上次大理短短時間而已我跟你講就是因為這些事件\n217838\t233130\t還發生了公安意外所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾就是說你跟他講說除役除役之後可是緊急備用又偷偷的重啟所以這樣子的情況民眾要看到的時候拆除所以我們看到你們提供的這個期審時間表\n234571\t237313\t所以我在這邊我是希望院長要請院長跟台電要求我們這個一個完整的採取計畫\n253625\t266877\t細部的 計畫怎麼做 請台電提供好不好台電有很清楚的時程的規劃我還要求說不能到2034不要往前拉你現在裡面有25 26 31 32 3334到2034年 還那麼多年中間有空了好幾年空檔 我希望他往前拉\n280751\t306922\t你說的2025第一步機箱沒動啊2034年會達成完全無美嘛齁那但是之前的那個行程就是他的程序我們會做一些規劃我跟你講啦齁就是說你們這些騎乘齁這樣子但是沒有辦法說服民眾啦因為沒有看到作為嘛沒有看到作為所以我們現在說的2025就還沒動啊2025已經快時間要過了了所以當初啊台電民眾的質疑齁就是說\n307984\t322532\t用騙的去讓他們去承諾去答應以燃氣換燃煤其實我們要的是真正落實拆除而不只是廚藝所以我想在這邊跟委員報告新的燃氣機組正在加緊的\n324020\t338474\t裝置當中那只要升新的燃氣機組好了那麼1、2號燃煤機組就會拆除那你完整的計劃要出來啊這沒有欺騙我所要不到資料嘛如果你有計劃 計劃應該早就做好啦就是先把新的燃氣機組\n339715\t364631\t這個目前施工的進度到什麼程度頂台電給出拆除計畫讓台中市民才能夠安心不然不要口號不要讓人家覺得說偷偷重啟也是你說要拆除的也是你那個不是偷偷啦 沒有啦那個是允許的 法律上允許的啦在緊急狀況的時候它稍微運轉而已啦那現在沒有緊急的狀況平常它是不會運轉的\n367025\t385634\t那我再跟你問一下接下來我要問的就是說台中火力發電廠未來還要除了這些燃氣的機組之外還要增設天然氣儲氣槽那目前中火是不是有計畫要增加這個部分有沒有有沒有計畫跟進度\n386553\t410989\t目前有的是現有的六座加上在建的兩座還有通過的四座所以台中港區已經有12座的儲氣槽現在正在環評在環評就是台電的部分在環評台中港部分接收站的部分整個就是在環評當中環評有通過嗎\n412276\t435285\t還沒有還沒有通過還沒有送出去啦 打算要送現在台中港區包括龍井 沙鹿 烏日這一帶整個海線的民眾都在擔心說到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽那到底安不安全那所以說 安全啦 儲氣槽沒有發生意外過不是 我跟你講\n436924\t449760\t報告如果出來了台電未來申請的要增設的這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來請給本席辦公室也要提醒我在這邊提醒部長一定要\n450458\t468840\t跟當地所有的居民做一個良好的溝通不只是溝通啦還要宣導未來的風險可能風險在哪裡怎麼樣預防突發的事件不會在居民的附近會比較遠離居民的地方你有到現場看過嗎\n470868\t491595\t你沒有去嘛 你怎麼知道遠離居民我們就生活在那個地方我跟你講台中港區下那個勒 那個大型的那個Outlet呢Outlet就在旁邊啊 那每天出入多少人啊對不對 所以我跟你講部長 我們要實地去了解關於這些預防的事情我跟台電要的資料 光從111年\n494025\t507303\t到現在就有八起的公安事故台電喔 這是有通報的那包含未通報的不知道有多少那台電未來要在這邊興建多座的這個天然氣儲氣槽再加上原有已經設置的\n509045\t527470\t正在建的再加上通過的已經有12座了那台電未來現在正在環評的要增加多少這些東西都集中在台東港區我每一次總諮詢我都關心台電的狀況因為以氣換煤的話一定要有接收站跟\n528446\t555520\t當然嘛 沒有錯嘛所以台灣的部分也不是全部集中在不是 你們要增加這個三接的觀塘也好你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽這個部分然後降低供應中斷的風險但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受啊讓整個海線來承受所以我說你事前的防範事前的一個宣導這個是最重要的\n556457\t580566\t署警準備不可少啦但是一旦我們都不希望發生任何事故但是如果一旦發生了那絕對不是小事情民眾承受不起沒有人可以承受政府也承受不起那所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔相關的配套一定要到位不管是怎麼樣安全的評估是第一的民眾的安全是第一的當然永遠比發電更重要\n583735\t600132\t再來我再請教我們今年7月份在台中烏日海線這個豪大雨發生了幾次豪大雨不知道院長有沒有注意但是對於當地的居民這個2008年卡梅基颱風對於整個中台灣的重創\n601033\t629796\t尤其在大渡烏日地區那個水患非常嚴重也全國造成了20人的死亡那這個損失無法估計那也造成很多家庭的破碎所以對當地人民來說可以說歷歷在目那種悲慘的教訓信眾非常害怕我跟台中市水利局討論過相關的案件透過資料我們知道說所有的這些抽水站運作都是正常的\n630436\t642608\t大理溪、烏溪部分包括漱王碑抽水站、五峒嶺抽水站、中興抽水站、芋園抽水站、宮廷抽水站等等抽水量都正常但是我們發現問題了就是說這些\n648373\t672772\t排水出去的河川他的水位比淹水地區還高已經高過淹水區所以等於說抽水抽出來水要排出去排不出去那排不出去之後呢包括大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況之前南部的颱風南部的風災水災也是這樣子的狀況所以我在這邊要請院長是不是請我們經濟部跟部長要求水利署\n673413\t682971\t做一個通盤的檢討針對全國全國這個國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的\n683710\t700942\t這整個河川流域我們都要做全體的一個規劃可不可以院長 部長因為這一次的728豪雨的確是比平常大很多我們治水的平均標準都超過這的確是這樣這個當然是氣候變遷的影響\n704502\t716689\t的確也因為這樣子院長給我們的四年一千億來就是地方政府協助地方政府所有整治的治水的部分縣市管河川還包括這個\n718857\t743326\t集水區的淨流分擔或者是滯洪池的部分我們會全部盤點起來現在有關於台中的部分在2025年11月10號我們經過審查以後會利用如果公有地的部分我們先來施作因為施有地還是要徵收但是公有的部分如果可以做淨流分擔的部分我們就先做\n743971\t769781\t河川流域大多數都是公有地都是河川地對不對所以你怎麼會說這種情況我們台風又到了颱風又到鳳凰颱風現在對台灣又產生新的一個威脅所以這個事情不是我們現在講你們現在回應是應該事前就要準備預防所以現在我剛剛提到的烏日大都地區的光是這兩處就有好多處是這個\n772913\t789570\t抽水排放的河川水位高於這個淹水區所以這部分不是只有台中會發生各地都在發生都呈現出來經濟部水利署一直有準備所以剛剛部長所說的就是未來四年我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫\n791766\t812084\t繼續將這個地方比方說滯洪池增加實際上過去為什麼有做到預算規模前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式的移動式的抽水站移動式的抽水站是沒有說是可以調度的可以調度但是大型的抽水站本身就有那個需求所以他才會那個設計才會有整個河川的流量那個排水量他們才會去設計這個抽水站對不對\n814446\t838806\t那這個移動式的當然也要再增加由現場發生的時候在發生當下由指揮中心來做一個調度這個都合理的這個本來就有在做所以為什麼現在我講的是說他的水位已經高過淹水區啦那水位高過淹水區他怎麼抽你再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊所以為什麼要淨流分攤就是這樣沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區\n840376\t858661\t我想我們請院長部長一定要關心要放在這裡因為現在我們不敢再發聲因為極端氣候來臨我們的力道要加強跟地方的合作要更多不只颱風光是我們現在的一個\n860101\t888080\t這樣子的一個極端氣候強降雨就會造成我們這個人口新興地區還有這些一些部分的一個行政區都會造成淹水為什麼因為雨水下水道不足過去幾十年前的這個都市計畫排水計畫已經無法來滿足我們現在的一個城市發展那有一些包括我們台中市過去台中縣海縣山城屯區它不是在一個完整的都市計畫內\n889241\t915044\t所以我們很多地方已經人口聚集非常多但是他還是沒有這種雨水下水道所以這個部分我知道這個水利署這邊還有我們營建署這一邊他們都有在有在有在加強有在跟進但是我希望院長院長跟部長我們可以制定一個專案一個計劃針對我們這個國內我們現在尤其六都包含這些縣市人口新興的地區\n915925\t928379\t人口新新的地區新的發展區那對於雨水下水道的部分來做一個更全面的規劃然後補這個協助地方政府來更多的一個預算\n945920\t945940\t好 謝謝\n","txt":"主席各位本院同仁及列席官員大家早主席有請行政院左院長請左院長備詢\n燕國元好 院長早\n院長台中火力發電廠在我的選區5支煙囪10部燃煤機組那10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬千瓦依照經濟部的規劃直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組那現在的這個燃氣機組的部分每部裝置容量為130萬千瓦所以6部總共是780萬千瓦\n那中火目前這10部燃煤機組是全國最大也是全世界第4名的這個燃煤電廠那依照環境部公布的數據中火是台中市這個排放大戶PM2.5排放佔台中市固定污染源的13.5%硫氧化物佔台中市的66.1%氮氧化物排放佔65.6%說了這麼多我們就是要看到說\n中火的這個燃煤機組的拆除計畫有沒有全面的拆除計畫不要零星的不要這個片面的\n請部長能夠詳細說明我知道他是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組一個燃氣機組蓋好之後他會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對 但是問題是2025已經快結束了\n2026所以這樣子的我們要看到的是期程不是只有時間拆除計劃其實我跟這個台電這邊所知已經一個禮拜了如果有拆除計劃應該早就在手上不會拖了那麼久還沒有表示沒有這個計劃是不是這樣\n85年我們就是在規劃在一起的兩部的新的燃氣機組因為新的燃氣上來以後我知道嘛就是說燃氣上來我們的燃煤才會除液第一步第二步就把它拆掉是沒有說你現在說的就好像是乾就是沒有計畫沒有計畫所以現在其實從一開始\n在地方在跟民眾說明台電拍胸部保證說一氣換一美而且保證拆除當時民眾我們的鄉親為了要讓減少空污讓這個政策可以趕快落實所以也都相信了但是我們近期看到的是高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機\n偷偷的重啟啊被抓包啊對不對那另外新達電廠他已經除役了咧那另外新達電廠三四號機也是在半年前就重啟啊所以你現在跟人家講說除役除役備用但是還是重啟啊所以你沒有拆除的話你現在跟民眾承諾了民眾不相信那備用的話只有在緊急時候上次大理短短時間而已我跟你講就是因為這些事件\n還發生了公安意外所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾就是說你跟他講說除役除役之後可是緊急備用又偷偷的重啟所以這樣子的情況民眾要看到的時候拆除所以我們看到你們提供的這個期審時間表\n所以我在這邊我是希望院長要請院長跟台電要求我們這個一個完整的採取計畫\n細部的 計畫怎麼做 請台電提供好不好台電有很清楚的時程的規劃我還要求說不能到2034不要往前拉你現在裡面有25 26 31 32 3334到2034年 還那麼多年中間有空了好幾年空檔 我希望他往前拉\n你說的2025第一步機箱沒動啊2034年會達成完全無美嘛齁那但是之前的那個行程就是他的程序我們會做一些規劃我跟你講啦齁就是說你們這些騎乘齁這樣子但是沒有辦法說服民眾啦因為沒有看到作為嘛沒有看到作為所以我們現在說的2025就還沒動啊2025已經快時間要過了了所以當初啊台電民眾的質疑齁就是說\n用騙的去讓他們去承諾去答應以燃氣換燃煤其實我們要的是真正落實拆除而不只是廚藝所以我想在這邊跟委員報告新的燃氣機組正在加緊的\n裝置當中那只要升新的燃氣機組好了那麼1、2號燃煤機組就會拆除那你完整的計劃要出來啊這沒有欺騙我所要不到資料嘛如果你有計劃 計劃應該早就做好啦就是先把新的燃氣機組\n這個目前施工的進度到什麼程度頂台電給出拆除計畫讓台中市民才能夠安心不然不要口號不要讓人家覺得說偷偷重啟也是你說要拆除的也是你那個不是偷偷啦 沒有啦那個是允許的 法律上允許的啦在緊急狀況的時候它稍微運轉而已啦那現在沒有緊急的狀況平常它是不會運轉的\n那我再跟你問一下接下來我要問的就是說台中火力發電廠未來還要除了這些燃氣的機組之外還要增設天然氣儲氣槽那目前中火是不是有計畫要增加這個部分有沒有有沒有計畫跟進度\n目前有的是現有的六座加上在建的兩座還有通過的四座所以台中港區已經有12座的儲氣槽現在正在環評在環評就是台電的部分在環評台中港部分接收站的部分整個就是在環評當中環評有通過嗎\n還沒有還沒有通過還沒有送出去啦 打算要送現在台中港區包括龍井 沙鹿 烏日這一帶整個海線的民眾都在擔心說到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽那到底安不安全那所以說 安全啦 儲氣槽沒有發生意外過不是 我跟你講\n報告如果出來了台電未來申請的要增設的這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來請給本席辦公室也要提醒我在這邊提醒部長一定要\n跟當地所有的居民做一個良好的溝通不只是溝通啦還要宣導未來的風險可能風險在哪裡怎麼樣預防突發的事件不會在居民的附近會比較遠離居民的地方你有到現場看過嗎\n你沒有去嘛 你怎麼知道遠離居民我們就生活在那個地方我跟你講台中港區下那個勒 那個大型的那個Outlet呢Outlet就在旁邊啊 那每天出入多少人啊對不對 所以我跟你講部長 我們要實地去了解關於這些預防的事情我跟台電要的資料 光從111年\n到現在就有八起的公安事故台電喔 這是有通報的那包含未通報的不知道有多少那台電未來要在這邊興建多座的這個天然氣儲氣槽再加上原有已經設置的\n正在建的再加上通過的已經有12座了那台電未來現在正在環評的要增加多少這些東西都集中在台東港區我每一次總諮詢我都關心台電的狀況因為以氣換煤的話一定要有接收站跟\n當然嘛 沒有錯嘛所以台灣的部分也不是全部集中在不是 你們要增加這個三接的觀塘也好你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽這個部分然後降低供應中斷的風險但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受啊讓整個海線來承受所以我說你事前的防範事前的一個宣導這個是最重要的\n署警準備不可少啦但是一旦我們都不希望發生任何事故但是如果一旦發生了那絕對不是小事情民眾承受不起沒有人可以承受政府也承受不起那所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔相關的配套一定要到位不管是怎麼樣安全的評估是第一的民眾的安全是第一的當然永遠比發電更重要\n再來我再請教我們今年7月份在台中烏日海線這個豪大雨發生了幾次豪大雨不知道院長有沒有注意但是對於當地的居民這個2008年卡梅基颱風對於整個中台灣的重創\n尤其在大渡烏日地區那個水患非常嚴重也全國造成了20人的死亡那這個損失無法估計那也造成很多家庭的破碎所以對當地人民來說可以說歷歷在目那種悲慘的教訓信眾非常害怕我跟台中市水利局討論過相關的案件透過資料我們知道說所有的這些抽水站運作都是正常的\n大理溪、烏溪部分包括漱王碑抽水站、五峒嶺抽水站、中興抽水站、芋園抽水站、宮廷抽水站等等抽水量都正常但是我們發現問題了就是說這些\n排水出去的河川他的水位比淹水地區還高已經高過淹水區所以等於說抽水抽出來水要排出去排不出去那排不出去之後呢包括大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況之前南部的颱風南部的風災水災也是這樣子的狀況所以我在這邊要請院長是不是請我們經濟部跟部長要求水利署\n做一個通盤的檢討針對全國全國這個國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的\n這整個河川流域我們都要做全體的一個規劃可不可以院長 部長因為這一次的728豪雨的確是比平常大很多我們治水的平均標準都超過這的確是這樣這個當然是氣候變遷的影響\n的確也因為這樣子院長給我們的四年一千億來就是地方政府協助地方政府所有整治的治水的部分縣市管河川還包括這個\n集水區的淨流分擔或者是滯洪池的部分我們會全部盤點起來現在有關於台中的部分在2025年11月10號我們經過審查以後會利用如果公有地的部分我們先來施作因為施有地還是要徵收但是公有的部分如果可以做淨流分擔的部分我們就先做\n河川流域大多數都是公有地都是河川地對不對所以你怎麼會說這種情況我們台風又到了颱風又到鳳凰颱風現在對台灣又產生新的一個威脅所以這個事情不是我們現在講你們現在回應是應該事前就要準備預防所以現在我剛剛提到的烏日大都地區的光是這兩處就有好多處是這個\n抽水排放的河川水位高於這個淹水區所以這部分不是只有台中會發生各地都在發生都呈現出來經濟部水利署一直有準備所以剛剛部長所說的就是未來四年我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫\n繼續將這個地方比方說滯洪池增加實際上過去為什麼有做到預算規模前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式的移動式的抽水站移動式的抽水站是沒有說是可以調度的可以調度但是大型的抽水站本身就有那個需求所以他才會那個設計才會有整個河川的流量那個排水量他們才會去設計這個抽水站對不對\n那這個移動式的當然也要再增加由現場發生的時候在發生當下由指揮中心來做一個調度這個都合理的這個本來就有在做所以為什麼現在我講的是說他的水位已經高過淹水區啦那水位高過淹水區他怎麼抽你再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊所以為什麼要淨流分攤就是這樣沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區\n我想我們請院長部長一定要關心要放在這裡因為現在我們不敢再發聲因為極端氣候來臨我們的力道要加強跟地方的合作要更多不只颱風光是我們現在的一個\n這樣子的一個極端氣候強降雨就會造成我們這個人口新興地區還有這些一些部分的一個行政區都會造成淹水為什麼因為雨水下水道不足過去幾十年前的這個都市計畫排水計畫已經無法來滿足我們現在的一個城市發展那有一些包括我們台中市過去台中縣海縣山城屯區它不是在一個完整的都市計畫內\n所以我們很多地方已經人口聚集非常多但是他還是沒有這種雨水下水道所以這個部分我知道這個水利署這邊還有我們營建署這一邊他們都有在有在有在加強有在跟進但是我希望院長院長跟部長我們可以制定一個專案一個計劃針對我們這個國內我們現在尤其六都包含這些縣市人口新興的地區\n人口新新的地區新的發展區那對於雨水下水道的部分來做一個更全面的規劃然後補這個協助地方政府來更多的一個預算\n好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:14.563 --> 00:21.166\n主席各位本院同仁及列席官員大家早主席有請行政院左院長請左院長備詢\n\n00:31.431 --> 00:32.616\n燕國元好院長早\n\n00:34.298 --> 00:59.467\n院長台中火力發電廠在我的選區5支煙囪10部燃煤機組那10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬千瓦依照經濟部的規劃直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組那現在的這個燃氣機組的部分每部裝置容量為130萬千瓦所以6部總共是780萬千瓦\n\n01:01.528 --> 01:27.413\n那中火目前這10部燃煤機組是全國最大也是全世界第4名的這個燃煤電廠那依照環境部公布的數據中火是台中市這個排放大戶PM2.5排放佔台中市固定污染源的13.5%硫氧化物佔台中市的66.1%氮氧化物排放佔65.6%說了這麼多我們就是要看到說\n\n01:28.891 --> 01:40.396\n中火的這個燃煤機組的拆除計畫有沒有全面的拆除計畫不要零星的不要這個片面的\n\n01:42.295 --> 02:05.062\n請部長能夠詳細說明我知道他是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組一個燃氣機組蓋好之後他會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對但是問題是2025已經快結束了\n\n02:08.155 --> 02:23.666\n2026所以這樣子的我們要看到的是期程不是只有時間拆除計劃其實我跟這個台電這邊所知已經一個禮拜了如果有拆除計劃應該早就在手上不會拖了那麼久還沒有表示沒有這個計劃是不是這樣\n\n02:25.037 --> 02:44.554\n85年我們就是在規劃在一起的兩部的新的燃氣機組因為新的燃氣上來以後我知道嘛就是說燃氣上來我們的燃煤才會除液第一步第二步就把它拆掉是沒有說你現在說的就好像是乾就是沒有計畫沒有計畫所以現在其實從一開始\n\n02:46.255 --> 03:07.389\n在地方在跟民眾說明台電拍胸部保證說一氣換一美而且保證拆除當時民眾我們的鄉親為了要讓減少空污讓這個政策可以趕快落實所以也都相信了但是我們近期看到的是高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機\n\n03:09.010 --> 03:36.537\n偷偷的重啟啊被抓包啊對不對那另外新達電廠他已經除役了咧那另外新達電廠三四號機也是在半年前就重啟啊所以你現在跟人家講說除役除役備用但是還是重啟啊所以你沒有拆除的話你現在跟民眾承諾了民眾不相信那備用的話只有在緊急時候上次大理短短時間而已我跟你講就是因為這些事件\n\n03:37.838 --> 03:53.130\n還發生了公安意外所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾就是說你跟他講說除役除役之後可是緊急備用又偷偷的重啟所以這樣子的情況民眾要看到的時候拆除所以我們看到你們提供的這個期審時間表\n\n03:54.571 --> 03:57.313\n所以我在這邊我是希望院長要請院長跟台電要求我們這個一個完整的採取計畫\n\n04:13.625 --> 04:26.877\n細部的計畫怎麼做請台電提供好不好台電有很清楚的時程的規劃我還要求說不能到2034不要往前拉你現在裡面有252631323334到2034年還那麼多年中間有空了好幾年空檔我希望他往前拉\n\n04:40.751 --> 05:06.922\n你說的2025第一步機箱沒動啊2034年會達成完全無美嘛齁那但是之前的那個行程就是他的程序我們會做一些規劃我跟你講啦齁就是說你們這些騎乘齁這樣子但是沒有辦法說服民眾啦因為沒有看到作為嘛沒有看到作為所以我們現在說的2025就還沒動啊2025已經快時間要過了了所以當初啊台電民眾的質疑齁就是說\n\n05:07.984 --> 05:22.532\n用騙的去讓他們去承諾去答應以燃氣換燃煤其實我們要的是真正落實拆除而不只是廚藝所以我想在這邊跟委員報告新的燃氣機組正在加緊的\n\n05:24.020 --> 05:38.474\n裝置當中那只要升新的燃氣機組好了那麼1、2號燃煤機組就會拆除那你完整的計劃要出來啊這沒有欺騙我所要不到資料嘛如果你有計劃計劃應該早就做好啦就是先把新的燃氣機組\n\n05:39.715 --> 06:04.631\n這個目前施工的進度到什麼程度頂台電給出拆除計畫讓台中市民才能夠安心不然不要口號不要讓人家覺得說偷偷重啟也是你說要拆除的也是你那個不是偷偷啦沒有啦那個是允許的法律上允許的啦在緊急狀況的時候它稍微運轉而已啦那現在沒有緊急的狀況平常它是不會運轉的\n\n06:07.025 --> 06:25.634\n那我再跟你問一下接下來我要問的就是說台中火力發電廠未來還要除了這些燃氣的機組之外還要增設天然氣儲氣槽那目前中火是不是有計畫要增加這個部分有沒有有沒有計畫跟進度\n\n06:26.553 --> 06:50.989\n目前有的是現有的六座加上在建的兩座還有通過的四座所以台中港區已經有12座的儲氣槽現在正在環評在環評就是台電的部分在環評台中港部分接收站的部分整個就是在環評當中環評有通過嗎\n\n06:52.276 --> 07:15.285\n還沒有還沒有通過還沒有送出去啦打算要送現在台中港區包括龍井沙鹿烏日這一帶整個海線的民眾都在擔心說到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽那到底安不安全那所以說安全啦儲氣槽沒有發生意外過不是我跟你講\n\n07:16.924 --> 07:29.760\n報告如果出來了台電未來申請的要增設的這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來請給本席辦公室也要提醒我在這邊提醒部長一定要\n\n07:30.458 --> 07:48.840\n跟當地所有的居民做一個良好的溝通不只是溝通啦還要宣導未來的風險可能風險在哪裡怎麼樣預防突發的事件不會在居民的附近會比較遠離居民的地方你有到現場看過嗎\n\n07:50.868 --> 08:11.595\n你沒有去嘛你怎麼知道遠離居民我們就生活在那個地方我跟你講台中港區下那個勒那個大型的那個Outlet呢Outlet就在旁邊啊那每天出入多少人啊對不對所以我跟你講部長我們要實地去了解關於這些預防的事情我跟台電要的資料光從111年\n\n08:14.025 --> 08:27.303\n到現在就有八起的公安事故台電喔這是有通報的那包含未通報的不知道有多少那台電未來要在這邊興建多座的這個天然氣儲氣槽再加上原有已經設置的\n\n08:29.045 --> 08:47.470\n正在建的再加上通過的已經有12座了那台電未來現在正在環評的要增加多少這些東西都集中在台東港區我每一次總諮詢我都關心台電的狀況因為以氣換煤的話一定要有接收站跟\n\n08:48.446 --> 09:15.520\n當然嘛沒有錯嘛所以台灣的部分也不是全部集中在不是你們要增加這個三接的觀塘也好你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽這個部分然後降低供應中斷的風險但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受啊讓整個海線來承受所以我說你事前的防範事前的一個宣導這個是最重要的\n\n09:16.457 --> 09:40.566\n署警準備不可少啦但是一旦我們都不希望發生任何事故但是如果一旦發生了那絕對不是小事情民眾承受不起沒有人可以承受政府也承受不起那所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔相關的配套一定要到位不管是怎麼樣安全的評估是第一的民眾的安全是第一的當然永遠比發電更重要\n\n09:43.735 --> 10:00.132\n再來我再請教我們今年7月份在台中烏日海線這個豪大雨發生了幾次豪大雨不知道院長有沒有注意但是對於當地的居民這個2008年卡梅基颱風對於整個中台灣的重創\n\n10:01.033 --> 10:29.796\n尤其在大渡烏日地區那個水患非常嚴重也全國造成了20人的死亡那這個損失無法估計那也造成很多家庭的破碎所以對當地人民來說可以說歷歷在目那種悲慘的教訓信眾非常害怕我跟台中市水利局討論過相關的案件透過資料我們知道說所有的這些抽水站運作都是正常的\n\n10:30.436 --> 10:42.608\n大理溪、烏溪部分包括漱王碑抽水站、五峒嶺抽水站、中興抽水站、芋園抽水站、宮廷抽水站等等抽水量都正常但是我們發現問題了就是說這些\n\n10:48.373 --> 11:12.772\n排水出去的河川他的水位比淹水地區還高已經高過淹水區所以等於說抽水抽出來水要排出去排不出去那排不出去之後呢包括大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況之前南部的颱風南部的風災水災也是這樣子的狀況所以我在這邊要請院長是不是請我們經濟部跟部長要求水利署\n\n11:13.413 --> 11:22.971\n做一個通盤的檢討針對全國全國這個國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的\n\n11:23.710 --> 11:40.942\n這整個河川流域我們都要做全體的一個規劃可不可以院長部長因為這一次的728豪雨的確是比平常大很多我們治水的平均標準都超過這的確是這樣這個當然是氣候變遷的影響\n\n11:44.502 --> 11:56.689\n的確也因為這樣子院長給我們的四年一千億來就是地方政府協助地方政府所有整治的治水的部分縣市管河川還包括這個\n\n11:58.857 --> 12:23.326\n集水區的淨流分擔或者是滯洪池的部分我們會全部盤點起來現在有關於台中的部分在2025年11月10號我們經過審查以後會利用如果公有地的部分我們先來施作因為施有地還是要徵收但是公有的部分如果可以做淨流分擔的部分我們就先做\n\n12:23.971 --> 12:49.781\n河川流域大多數都是公有地都是河川地對不對所以你怎麼會說這種情況我們台風又到了颱風又到鳳凰颱風現在對台灣又產生新的一個威脅所以這個事情不是我們現在講你們現在回應是應該事前就要準備預防所以現在我剛剛提到的烏日大都地區的光是這兩處就有好多處是這個\n\n12:52.913 --> 13:09.570\n抽水排放的河川水位高於這個淹水區所以這部分不是只有台中會發生各地都在發生都呈現出來經濟部水利署一直有準備所以剛剛部長所說的就是未來四年我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫\n\n13:11.766 --> 13:32.084\n繼續將這個地方比方說滯洪池增加實際上過去為什麼有做到預算規模前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式的移動式的抽水站移動式的抽水站是沒有說是可以調度的可以調度但是大型的抽水站本身就有那個需求所以他才會那個設計才會有整個河川的流量那個排水量他們才會去設計這個抽水站對不對\n\n13:34.446 --> 13:58.806\n那這個移動式的當然也要再增加由現場發生的時候在發生當下由指揮中心來做一個調度這個都合理的這個本來就有在做所以為什麼現在我講的是說他的水位已經高過淹水區啦那水位高過淹水區他怎麼抽你再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊所以為什麼要淨流分攤就是這樣沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區\n\n14:00.376 --> 14:18.661\n我想我們請院長部長一定要關心要放在這裡因為現在我們不敢再發聲因為極端氣候來臨我們的力道要加強跟地方的合作要更多不只颱風光是我們現在的一個\n\n14:20.101 --> 14:48.080\n這樣子的一個極端氣候強降雨就會造成我們這個人口新興地區還有這些一些部分的一個行政區都會造成淹水為什麼因為雨水下水道不足過去幾十年前的這個都市計畫排水計畫已經無法來滿足我們現在的一個城市發展那有一些包括我們台中市過去台中縣海縣山城屯區它不是在一個完整的都市計畫內\n\n14:49.241 --> 15:15.044\n所以我們很多地方已經人口聚集非常多但是他還是沒有這種雨水下水道所以這個部分我知道這個水利署這邊還有我們營建署這一邊他們都有在有在有在加強有在跟進但是我希望院長院長跟部長我們可以制定一個專案一個計劃針對我們這個國內我們現在尤其六都包含這些縣市人口新興的地區\n\n15:15.925 --> 15:28.379\n人口新新的地區新的發展區那對於雨水下水道的部分來做一個更全面的規劃然後補這個協助地方政府來更多的一個預算\n\n15:45.920 --> 15:45.940\n好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":14.563,"end":21.166,"text":"主席各位本院同仁及列席官員大家早主席有請行政院左院長請左院長備詢"},{"start":31.431,"end":32.616,"text":"燕國元好 院長早"},{"start":34.298,"end":59.467,"text":"院長台中火力發電廠在我的選區5支煙囪10部燃煤機組那10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬千瓦依照經濟部的規劃直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組那現在的這個燃氣機組的部分每部裝置容量為130萬千瓦所以6部總共是780萬千瓦"},{"start":61.528,"end":87.413,"text":"那中火目前這10部燃煤機組是全國最大也是全世界第4名的這個燃煤電廠那依照環境部公布的數據中火是台中市這個排放大戶PM2.5排放佔台中市固定污染源的13.5%硫氧化物佔台中市的66.1%氮氧化物排放佔65.6%說了這麼多我們就是要看到說"},{"start":88.891,"end":100.396,"text":"中火的這個燃煤機組的拆除計畫有沒有全面的拆除計畫不要零星的不要這個片面的"},{"start":102.295,"end":125.062,"text":"請部長能夠詳細說明我知道他是一個燃氣機組會幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組一個燃氣機組蓋好之後他會拆掉兩個燃煤機組我們現在看到的是時間確實在網路上面公告的時間是說2025年要開始拆2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機對 但是問題是2025已經快結束了"},{"start":128.155,"end":143.666,"text":"2026所以這樣子的我們要看到的是期程不是只有時間拆除計劃其實我跟這個台電這邊所知已經一個禮拜了如果有拆除計劃應該早就在手上不會拖了那麼久還沒有表示沒有這個計劃是不是這樣"},{"start":145.037,"end":164.554,"text":"85年我們就是在規劃在一起的兩部的新的燃氣機組因為新的燃氣上來以後我知道嘛就是說燃氣上來我們的燃煤才會除液第一步第二步就把它拆掉是沒有說你現在說的就好像是乾就是沒有計畫沒有計畫所以現在其實從一開始"},{"start":166.255,"end":187.389,"text":"在地方在跟民眾說明台電拍胸部保證說一氣換一美而且保證拆除當時民眾我們的鄉親為了要讓減少空污讓這個政策可以趕快落實所以也都相信了但是我們近期看到的是高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機"},{"start":189.01,"end":216.537,"text":"偷偷的重啟啊被抓包啊對不對那另外新達電廠他已經除役了咧那另外新達電廠三四號機也是在半年前就重啟啊所以你現在跟人家講說除役除役備用但是還是重啟啊所以你沒有拆除的話你現在跟民眾承諾了民眾不相信那備用的話只有在緊急時候上次大理短短時間而已我跟你講就是因為這些事件"},{"start":217.838,"end":233.13,"text":"還發生了公安意外所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾就是說你跟他講說除役除役之後可是緊急備用又偷偷的重啟所以這樣子的情況民眾要看到的時候拆除所以我們看到你們提供的這個期審時間表"},{"start":234.571,"end":237.313,"text":"所以我在這邊我是希望院長要請院長跟台電要求我們這個一個完整的採取計畫"},{"start":253.625,"end":266.877,"text":"細部的 計畫怎麼做 請台電提供好不好台電有很清楚的時程的規劃我還要求說不能到2034不要往前拉你現在裡面有25 26 31 32 3334到2034年 還那麼多年中間有空了好幾年空檔 我希望他往前拉"},{"start":280.751,"end":306.922,"text":"你說的2025第一步機箱沒動啊2034年會達成完全無美嘛齁那但是之前的那個行程就是他的程序我們會做一些規劃我跟你講啦齁就是說你們這些騎乘齁這樣子但是沒有辦法說服民眾啦因為沒有看到作為嘛沒有看到作為所以我們現在說的2025就還沒動啊2025已經快時間要過了了所以當初啊台電民眾的質疑齁就是說"},{"start":307.984,"end":322.532,"text":"用騙的去讓他們去承諾去答應以燃氣換燃煤其實我們要的是真正落實拆除而不只是廚藝所以我想在這邊跟委員報告新的燃氣機組正在加緊的"},{"start":324.02,"end":338.474,"text":"裝置當中那只要升新的燃氣機組好了那麼1、2號燃煤機組就會拆除那你完整的計劃要出來啊這沒有欺騙我所要不到資料嘛如果你有計劃 計劃應該早就做好啦就是先把新的燃氣機組"},{"start":339.715,"end":364.631,"text":"這個目前施工的進度到什麼程度頂台電給出拆除計畫讓台中市民才能夠安心不然不要口號不要讓人家覺得說偷偷重啟也是你說要拆除的也是你那個不是偷偷啦 沒有啦那個是允許的 法律上允許的啦在緊急狀況的時候它稍微運轉而已啦那現在沒有緊急的狀況平常它是不會運轉的"},{"start":367.025,"end":385.634,"text":"那我再跟你問一下接下來我要問的就是說台中火力發電廠未來還要除了這些燃氣的機組之外還要增設天然氣儲氣槽那目前中火是不是有計畫要增加這個部分有沒有有沒有計畫跟進度"},{"start":386.553,"end":410.989,"text":"目前有的是現有的六座加上在建的兩座還有通過的四座所以台中港區已經有12座的儲氣槽現在正在環評在環評就是台電的部分在環評台中港部分接收站的部分整個就是在環評當中環評有通過嗎"},{"start":412.276,"end":435.285,"text":"還沒有還沒有通過還沒有送出去啦 打算要送現在台中港區包括龍井 沙鹿 烏日這一帶整個海線的民眾都在擔心說到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽那到底安不安全那所以說 安全啦 儲氣槽沒有發生意外過不是 我跟你講"},{"start":436.924,"end":449.76,"text":"報告如果出來了台電未來申請的要增設的這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來請給本席辦公室也要提醒我在這邊提醒部長一定要"},{"start":450.458,"end":468.84,"text":"跟當地所有的居民做一個良好的溝通不只是溝通啦還要宣導未來的風險可能風險在哪裡怎麼樣預防突發的事件不會在居民的附近會比較遠離居民的地方你有到現場看過嗎"},{"start":470.868,"end":491.595,"text":"你沒有去嘛 你怎麼知道遠離居民我們就生活在那個地方我跟你講台中港區下那個勒 那個大型的那個Outlet呢Outlet就在旁邊啊 那每天出入多少人啊對不對 所以我跟你講部長 我們要實地去了解關於這些預防的事情我跟台電要的資料 光從111年"},{"start":494.025,"end":507.303,"text":"到現在就有八起的公安事故台電喔 這是有通報的那包含未通報的不知道有多少那台電未來要在這邊興建多座的這個天然氣儲氣槽再加上原有已經設置的"},{"start":509.045,"end":527.47,"text":"正在建的再加上通過的已經有12座了那台電未來現在正在環評的要增加多少這些東西都集中在台東港區我每一次總諮詢我都關心台電的狀況因為以氣換煤的話一定要有接收站跟"},{"start":528.446,"end":555.52,"text":"當然嘛 沒有錯嘛所以台灣的部分也不是全部集中在不是 你們要增加這個三接的觀塘也好你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽這個部分然後降低供應中斷的風險但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受啊讓整個海線來承受所以我說你事前的防範事前的一個宣導這個是最重要的"},{"start":556.457,"end":580.566,"text":"署警準備不可少啦但是一旦我們都不希望發生任何事故但是如果一旦發生了那絕對不是小事情民眾承受不起沒有人可以承受政府也承受不起那所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔相關的配套一定要到位不管是怎麼樣安全的評估是第一的民眾的安全是第一的當然永遠比發電更重要"},{"start":583.735,"end":600.132,"text":"再來我再請教我們今年7月份在台中烏日海線這個豪大雨發生了幾次豪大雨不知道院長有沒有注意但是對於當地的居民這個2008年卡梅基颱風對於整個中台灣的重創"},{"start":601.033,"end":629.796,"text":"尤其在大渡烏日地區那個水患非常嚴重也全國造成了20人的死亡那這個損失無法估計那也造成很多家庭的破碎所以對當地人民來說可以說歷歷在目那種悲慘的教訓信眾非常害怕我跟台中市水利局討論過相關的案件透過資料我們知道說所有的這些抽水站運作都是正常的"},{"start":630.436,"end":642.608,"text":"大理溪、烏溪部分包括漱王碑抽水站、五峒嶺抽水站、中興抽水站、芋園抽水站、宮廷抽水站等等抽水量都正常但是我們發現問題了就是說這些"},{"start":648.373,"end":672.772,"text":"排水出去的河川他的水位比淹水地區還高已經高過淹水區所以等於說抽水抽出來水要排出去排不出去那排不出去之後呢包括大渡區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況之前南部的颱風南部的風災水災也是這樣子的狀況所以我在這邊要請院長是不是請我們經濟部跟部長要求水利署"},{"start":673.413,"end":682.971,"text":"做一個通盤的檢討針對全國全國這個國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的"},{"start":683.71,"end":700.942,"text":"這整個河川流域我們都要做全體的一個規劃可不可以院長 部長因為這一次的728豪雨的確是比平常大很多我們治水的平均標準都超過這的確是這樣這個當然是氣候變遷的影響"},{"start":704.502,"end":716.689,"text":"的確也因為這樣子院長給我們的四年一千億來就是地方政府協助地方政府所有整治的治水的部分縣市管河川還包括這個"},{"start":718.857,"end":743.326,"text":"集水區的淨流分擔或者是滯洪池的部分我們會全部盤點起來現在有關於台中的部分在2025年11月10號我們經過審查以後會利用如果公有地的部分我們先來施作因為施有地還是要徵收但是公有的部分如果可以做淨流分擔的部分我們就先做"},{"start":743.971,"end":769.781,"text":"河川流域大多數都是公有地都是河川地對不對所以你怎麼會說這種情況我們台風又到了颱風又到鳳凰颱風現在對台灣又產生新的一個威脅所以這個事情不是我們現在講你們現在回應是應該事前就要準備預防所以現在我剛剛提到的烏日大都地區的光是這兩處就有好多處是這個"},{"start":772.913,"end":789.57,"text":"抽水排放的河川水位高於這個淹水區所以這部分不是只有台中會發生各地都在發生都呈現出來經濟部水利署一直有準備所以剛剛部長所說的就是未來四年我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫"},{"start":791.766,"end":812.084,"text":"繼續將這個地方比方說滯洪池增加實際上過去為什麼有做到預算規模前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式的移動式的抽水站移動式的抽水站是沒有說是可以調度的可以調度但是大型的抽水站本身就有那個需求所以他才會那個設計才會有整個河川的流量那個排水量他們才會去設計這個抽水站對不對"},{"start":814.446,"end":838.806,"text":"那這個移動式的當然也要再增加由現場發生的時候在發生當下由指揮中心來做一個調度這個都合理的這個本來就有在做所以為什麼現在我講的是說他的水位已經高過淹水區啦那水位高過淹水區他怎麼抽你再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊所以為什麼要淨流分攤就是這樣沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區"},{"start":840.376,"end":858.661,"text":"我想我們請院長部長一定要關心要放在這裡因為現在我們不敢再發聲因為極端氣候來臨我們的力道要加強跟地方的合作要更多不只颱風光是我們現在的一個"},{"start":860.101,"end":888.08,"text":"這樣子的一個極端氣候強降雨就會造成我們這個人口新興地區還有這些一些部分的一個行政區都會造成淹水為什麼因為雨水下水道不足過去幾十年前的這個都市計畫排水計畫已經無法來滿足我們現在的一個城市發展那有一些包括我們台中市過去台中縣海縣山城屯區它不是在一個完整的都市計畫內"},{"start":889.241,"end":915.044,"text":"所以我們很多地方已經人口聚集非常多但是他還是沒有這種雨水下水道所以這個部分我知道這個水利署這邊還有我們營建署這一邊他們都有在有在有在加強有在跟進但是我希望院長院長跟部長我們可以制定一個專案一個計劃針對我們這個國內我們現在尤其六都包含這些縣市人口新興的地區"},{"start":915.925,"end":928.379,"text":"人口新新的地區新的發展區那對於雨水下水道的部分來做一個更全面的規劃然後補這個協助地方政府來更多的一個預算"},{"start":945.92,"end":945.94,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（9時31分）主席、各位本院同仁及列席官員，大家早。主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長早。台中火力發電廠在我的選區，5支煙囪、10部燃煤機組，10部燃煤機組的總裝置容量是550萬瓩。依照經濟部的規劃，直到2034年會再多出6部燃氣機組，這個燃氣機組的部分，每部裝置容量為130萬瓩，所以6部總共是780萬瓩。","中火目前有這10部燃煤機組，為全國最大及全世界第四名的燃煤電廠。依照環境部公布的數據，中火是臺中市的排放大戶，PM2.5排放占臺中市固定污染源的13.5%；硫氧化物占臺中市的66.1%；氮氧化物排放占65.6%。說了這麼多，我們要看的就是，中火燃煤機組的拆除計畫，有沒有全面的拆除計畫？不要是零星的、不要片面的，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長能夠詳細說明。我知道，它是一個燃氣機組，幾乎等於兩部的燃煤機組……"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有錯，裝置容量。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以一個燃氣機組蓋好之後，它會拆掉兩個燃煤機組。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們現在看到的是時間，確實在網路上面公告的時間是2025年要開始拆，2025跟2026要拆掉兩部機。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，但問題是2025已經快結束了，我們要看到的是期程，不是只有時間、拆除計畫……"],["卓院長榮泰：是……"],["顏委員寬恒：其實我跟台電這邊索資已經一個禮拜了，如果有拆除計畫，應該早就在手上，不會拖了那麼久還沒有，表示沒有這個計畫，是不是這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們就是規劃在一期的兩部新的燃氣機組，因為新的燃氣上來以後……"],["顏委員寬恒：我知道，就是燃氣上來……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，燃氣上來以後……"],["顏委員寬恒：我們的燃煤才會除役。"],["龔部長明鑫：燃煤第一部、第二部就把它拆掉。第三、第四部備用。"],["顏委員寬恒：是沒有錯，你現在說的只有時間，就是沒有計畫。其實從一開始在地方跟民眾說明，台電拍胸脯保證說一氣換一煤，而且保證拆除，當時民眾、我們的鄉親為了要減少空污，讓這個政策可以趕快落實，所以也都相信了。但我們近期看到的是，高雄大林電廠已經除役的5號機，偷偷重啟被抓包，對不對？另外，興達電廠……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是、不是，那是緊急備用……"],["顏委員寬恒：它已經除役了耶！","另外，興達電廠三、四號機也是在半年前就重啟了，所以你現在跟人家講除役、備用，但還是重啟啊！所以沒有拆除的話，你跟民眾承諾，人家就不相信！"],["龔部長明鑫：備用只有在緊急的時候，上次大林也是短短的時間而已。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，就是因為這些事件還發生工安意外，所以民眾已經不相信政府的承諾。你跟人家說除役，可是除役之後，緊急備用又偷偷重啟……"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦！只要……"],["顏委員寬恒：基於這樣的情況，民眾要看到的是拆除，可是我們看到你們提供的期程時間表……"],["龔部長明鑫：燃氣機組上來，穩定以後，就會逐漸汰除。"],["顏委員寬恒：可是沒有做嘛！現在已經是2025年11月，2026要來了，所以我在這邊是要請院長跟台電要求一個完整的拆除計畫，包括細部計畫怎麼做，請台電提供好不好？可不可以這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：好、好，我們會提供……"],["顏委員寬恒：可以嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：台電有很清楚的時程規劃。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我現在跟你講的就是，這些都查得到，上面也都有寫時間，但是並沒有做！"],["卓院長榮泰：我還要求不能到2034，要往前拉。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是！現在裡面有25、26、31、32、33、34耶！到2034年，還那麼多年耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：中間有空了好幾年，有空檔，我希望它往前拉。"],["顏委員寬恒：你說2025第一部機，現在還沒動啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：2034年會達成完全無煤嘛！但是之前的時程、就是它的程序，我們會做一些規劃，提供給委員參考。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你講，就是你們這些期程這樣子沒有辦法說服民眾，因為沒有看到作為嘛！說是2025，可是就還沒動啊！2025已經快要過完了耶！所以民眾質疑當初是用騙的，讓他們答應以燃氣換燃煤，其實我們要的是真正落實拆除，而不只是除役。所以院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，新的燃氣機組正在加緊裝置當中，只要新的燃氣機組好了，一、二號燃煤機組就會拆除，這有一定的……"],["顏委員寬恒：那你完整的計畫要出來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這沒有欺騙。"],["顏委員寬恒：我索資要不到資料嘛！如果你有計畫，計畫應該早就做好了啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我們會儘快把它做出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：新的燃氣機組目前施工進度到什麼程度，應該先向委員報告。"],["顏委員寬恒：台電必須給出拆除計畫，臺中市民才能夠安心，不要口號，不要讓人家覺得，偷偷重啟的是你，說要拆除的也是你。"],["龔部長明鑫：那不是偷偷啦！沒有啦！那是法律上允許的啦！在緊急狀況的時候，它稍微運轉而已啦！現在沒有緊急狀況，平常它是不會運轉的。"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來我要問的是，台中火力發電廠除了這些燃氣機組之外，未來還要增設天然氣儲氣槽，目前中火是不是有計畫要增加？這個部分有沒有計畫跟進度？現有的6座，加上在建的2座，還有通過的4座，所以臺中港區已經有12座儲氣槽。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在正在環評。"],["顏委員寬恒：在環評？"],["龔部長明鑫：在環評。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是台電的部分在環評？"],["龔部長明鑫：是臺中港接收站的部分整個在環評當中。"],["顏委員寬恒：環評有通過嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：還沒有？"],["顏委員寬恒：還沒有通過？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，還沒送出去，打算要送。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在臺中港區，包括龍井、沙鹿、烏日這一帶，整個海線的民眾都在擔心：到底我家門口會有幾座儲氣槽？到底安不安全？"],["龔部長明鑫：安全啦！安全啦！儲氣槽沒有發生過意外。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，我跟你講，報告如果出來了，台電未來申請增設這些儲氣槽的計畫如果出來的話，也要提供給本席辦公室。這是提醒啦！我在這邊提醒部長……"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我們在送環評……"],["顏委員寬恒：就是一定要跟當地所有居民做一個良好的溝通……"],["龔部長明鑫：有、有，都有說明。"],["顏委員寬恒：不只是溝通，還要宣導未來可能的風險在哪裡、怎麼樣預防突發事件。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會設在居民附近，會在比較遠離居民的地方。"],["顏委員寬恒：你有到現場看過嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我……"],["顏委員寬恒：你沒有去嘛，怎麼知道遠離居民？"],["龔部長明鑫：看那個圖嘛！"],["顏委員寬恒：我們就生活在那個地方！我跟你講，臺中港區……"],["龔部長明鑫：臺中港我去過。"],["顏委員寬恒：像那個大型的outlet就在旁邊啊！每天出入多少人啊！對不對？所以我跟你講，我們要實地去瞭解！關於這些預防的事情，我跟台電要的資料，光從111年到現在，台電就有八起的工安事故，這是有通報的，包含未通報的，還不知道有多少，台電未來要在這邊興建多座的天然氣儲氣槽，再加上原有已經設置的、正在建的，再加上通過的已經有12座了，台電現在正在環評的要增加多少，這些東西都集中在臺中港區，每一次總質詢我都關心台電的狀況……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為以氣換煤的話，一定要有接收站跟……"],["顏委員寬恒：這當然嘛，沒有錯嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：所以臺灣的部分也不是全部集中在臺中……"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，你們要增加……"],["龔部長明鑫：三接的觀塘也好，或是南部……"],["顏委員寬恒：你們要增加儲存量來設置儲氣槽，降低供應中斷的風險，但是這個風險不可以讓民眾來承受，讓整個海線來承受，所以我說你事前的防範、事前的宣導，這個是最重要的，事前準備不可少啦，我們都不希望發生任何事故，但是如果一旦發生了，絕對不是小事情。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們一定會防範。"],["顏委員寬恒：民眾承受不起，沒有人可以承受，政府也承受不起，所以這些東西不可由海線的居民來承擔，相關的配套一定要到位，不管是怎麼樣，安全的評估是第一，民眾的安全是第一，永遠比發電更重要。"],["龔部長明鑫：當然，環評委員也會考量。"],["顏委員寬恒：再來我再請教，今年7月份在臺中烏日海線發生了幾次豪大雨，不知道院長有沒有注意？但是對於當地的居民，由於2008年卡玫基颱風對於整個中臺灣的重創，尤其在大肚、烏日地區，水患非常嚴重，也造成了全國20人的死亡，損失無法估計，也造成很多家庭的破碎。所以對於當地的民眾來說，可以說是歷歷在目，那種悲慘的教訓，心中非常害怕。我跟臺中市水利局討論過相關的案件，透過資料，我們知道所有抽水站的運作都是正常的，大里溪、烏溪部分，包括樹王埤抽水站、五張犁抽水站、中興抽水站、湖日抽水站、光明抽水站等等，抽水量都正常，但是我們發現問題了，這些排水出去的河川，它的水位比淹水地區還高，已經高過淹水區，所以等於抽水抽出來，水要排出去卻排不出去，包括大肚區的山陽大排也出現這樣的狀況，之前南部的風災、水災也是這樣的狀況。所以我在這邊要請院長，是不是請經濟部跟部長要求水利署做一個通盤的檢討？針對全國國內多處抽水後排水的河川地勢高於淹水地區的，這整個河川流域，我們都要做全體的規劃，可不可以？院長、部長？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。因為這一次的七二八豪雨的確是比平常大很多，我們治水的平均標準都超過，的確是這樣，這個當然是氣候變遷的影響，我們現在的確也因為這樣，院長給我們4年1,000億來協助地方政府所有整治治水的部分，縣市管河川，還包括集水區的逕流分擔，或者是滯洪池的部分，我們會全部盤點起來。現在有關於臺中的部分，在2025年11月10日，我們經過審查以後，如果是公有地的部分，我們會先來施作，因為私有地還是要徵收，但是公有的部分，如果可以做逕流分擔的部分，我們就先做。"],["顏委員寬恒：河川流域大多數都是公有地、都是河川地，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，幾乎……"],["顏委員寬恒：所以你怎麼會這麼說。","現在颱風又到了，鳳凰颱風現在對臺灣又產生新的威脅，所以這個事情不是我們現在講，你們現在才回應，而是應該事前就要準備、預防，像是我剛剛提到的烏日、大肚地區，光是這兩處就有好多處是抽水排放的河川水位高於淹水區，所以這部分不是只有臺中會發生，各地都在發生，都呈現出來了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，經濟部水利署一直有準備，所以剛剛部長所說的，就是未來4年，我們用縣市管河川改善的計畫，為什麼有做到……繼續將這個地方，比方說滯洪池增加，事實上過去為什麼有做到……"],["顏委員寬恒：預算規模……"],["卓院長榮泰：前瞻建設裡面也有做到這個抽水式、移動式的抽水站。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然，我知道嘛！移動式抽水站是沒有錯，是可以調度，但是大型抽水站本身就有需求，所以才會根據整個河川的流量、排水量去設計抽水站，對不對？移動式的抽水站當然也要再增加，在事情發生的當下，由指揮中心來調度，這都是合理的。"],["龔部長明鑫：這個本來就有在做，所以為什麼……"],["顏委員寬恒：現在我講的是水位已經高過淹水區，那它要怎麼抽？再多的抽水機也抽不出去啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：所以為什麼要逕流分擔就是這樣，沒有辦法完全集中在某一個地方的集水區。"],["顏委員寬恒：請院長、部長一定要把關心放在這裡，因為我們禁不起再發生……"],["龔部長明鑫：了解，了解。"],["卓院長榮泰：面對極端氣候來臨，我們的力道要加強，跟地方的合作要更多。"],["顏委員寬恒：我想不只颱風，光是現在這樣的極端氣候、強降雨，就會造成人口新興地區，還有部分行政區的淹水，為什麼？因為雨水下水道不足，過去幾十年前的都市計畫、排水計畫，已經無法滿足現在的城市發展……"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有錯，是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：有一些地區，包括我們臺中市，過去臺中縣的海線、山城、屯區，並不在一個完整都市計畫內，很多地方人口聚集非常多，但還是沒有雨水下水道，這個部分，我知道水利署和國土署都有在加強、在跟進，但是我希望院長和部長可以制訂一個專案、計畫，針對國內的雨水下水道，尤其是六都，包含這些人口新興地區、新的發展區，有一個更全面的規劃，協助地方政府，有更多的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個基本上有的是屬於地方自治事項，但我們願意和地方政府一起來討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：雖然沒有錯，但是請院長……"],["龔部長明鑫：委員，所以為什麼院長會給我們1,000億的預算就是……"],["顏委員寬恒：在經費上、在政策上，多多幫助地方，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：那個1,000億就是要用在地方政府。"],["顏委員寬恒：1,000億一定不夠啦！一定不夠啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦！有4年，有4年。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝顏委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":180,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-8","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","吳宗憲","賴瑞隆","顏寬恒","林楚茵","賴士葆","黃捷","何欣純","陳亭妃","丁學忠","劉建國","莊瑞雄","李柏毅","林德福","葛如鈞","賴惠員","黃珊珊","林楚茵","呂玉玲","麥玉珍","鄭正鈐","王鴻薇","郭昱晴","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","羅美玲","范雲","李坤城","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2025-11-11"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00004","1149101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第8次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1149101_00005"}}}