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員如果不在或者是整個空調好像24小時那我會覺得很耗電不知道有沒有可以改善的"},{"start":2141.96,"end":2142.721,"text":"有請總務處州處長說明有請"},{"start":2167.703,"end":2191.123,"text":"跟主席跟各位委員報告那個陳委員所提的這個會議室借用我想如果有空間的話我們當然會出借啦但是我們原則上這個院區裡面的這個會議室都是供現任委員來使用那最好的方式就是請現任委員代為借用這樣會比較好一點第二點就是我們會館不是24小時空調開著"},{"start":2192.344,"end":2194.145,"text":"現在就是說8點到晚上9點比如說整個整樓都沒人"},{"start":2221.653,"end":2238.109,"text":"那冷氣一直放著那這個部分就是請你們思考一下怎麼去節能發言委員我們那個中興大樓是中央空調的所以它是這個開了就是整棟大樓都是冷氣我現在譬如說講大安你是說住宿會館我是講那個會館住宿會館"},{"start":2243.534,"end":2258.666,"text":"都沒人,但是那個空調都開著,這個要怎麼來挑戰?報告委員,大安會館的委員住宿房間都是這個分離式冷氣外面那個是中央空調的對啊,我是說沒人都一直開著耗電啊,你剛剛"},{"start":2260.007,"end":2260.227,"text":"徐委員"},{"start":2290.659,"end":2306.249,"text":"李委員請好謝謝那個兩個部分第一個部分就是有關於這個因為前兩年疫情所以有些委員出國的這個補助他並沒有很多使用所以建議這個總務處這邊"},{"start":2309.871,"end":2311.812,"text":"委員提醒委員提醒委員提醒委員提醒"},{"start":2331.064,"end":2350.337,"text":"那請教對於卸任的委員這個到時候他們的一些打包啊或者怎麼樣那院裡面有沒有相關的一些協助的工作因為畢竟我看這一次應該也會有不少位委員來卸任所以這個部分是不是可以大概說明一下"},{"start":2352.623,"end":2356.628,"text":"有請國際事務處的林處長陳副說明剛剛那個國外出國的然後還要請總務處的周處長傑明說明這個打包的部分 謝謝"},{"start":2366.311,"end":2394.031,"text":"謝謝主席跟委員報告我們在國際處在今年的10月26號已經發了通案給113位委員的辦公室提醒委員在今年的年底要把這個過去三年保留的這個出國這個國會交流的預算要執行那明年度的話是明年的1月31號這一部分已經已經通案給各位奉秘書長合格通案給各位委員辦公室提醒各位那"},{"start":2394.731,"end":2399.475,"text":"我們會後會再提供一份copy給那個委員辦公室 以上 報告主席還有這個 各位委員 那個"},{"start":2413.223,"end":2431.397,"text":"每屆卸任的時候我們都有這個發包一個開口合約那我們今年是請原住民的這個這個搬家公司來幫忙這個卸任委員的打包跟運送這個沒有問題那個到時候這個我們會"},{"start":2432.278,"end":2433.839,"text":"好 那今天會議結束散會 謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"149037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/999752050c689f84b0ba25fe4f164a74af19a15924b5246dc986728e607a0322aa6d9d5be5f1c9245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"11:27:32 - 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-15","duration":134,"end_time":"2023-12-15T11:29:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-15T11:27:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（11時27分）首先謝謝我們游院長在今天能夠讓營養及健康飲食促進法三讀通過，這是營養界已經期待40年、倡議了40年的一個法，今天能夠三讀通過，真的非常高興，也期望透過這次立法能夠建構健康飲食的支持環境，提升人民營養及健康飲食知能，以及增進我們人民的健康。","依據國健署2017年至2020年的「國民營養健康調查」顯示，20歲至64歲的民眾中4個人裡面就有1個罹患代謝症候群。代謝症候群被認為與腦血管、心臟病和高血壓等慢性病的併發症密切相關，因此可以透過強化營養觀念、建構健康飲食的支持環境，以協助民眾透過健康行為來改善代謝症候群已經刻不容緩。","本法三讀條文有幾個重點，第一個，對於營養諮詢會議的討論意見，應採行適當的公民參與機制，能夠廣納更多元的見解。第二個，明定主管機關及各目的事業主管機關應逐年編列預算，辦理有關營養及健康飲食之促進，還有衛教的工作。第三個，衛福部過去常規執行的營養調查、研究及建置食品營養成分的資料庫也應明文入法，也希望能夠要求它定期發布。","最後，我要特別謝謝邱泰源召委的排審，讓這一次期待已久的法案能夠通過；我也要特別謝謝這兩屆以來持續提供我建議的營養師公會全聯會、黃青真教授與潘文涵教授能夠提供協助，也盼立法之後我們公私協力，讓我們共同逐步建立更好的營養及健康飲食環境。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","報告院會，今天會議到此為止，12月18日（星期一）上午9時繼續開會，進行後續討論事項。","現在休息。","休息（11時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":488,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","吳玉琴"],"page_start":185,"meetingDate":["2023-12-15"],"gazette_id":"1130101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130101_00004","1130101_00005","1130101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"營養及健康飲食促進法─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130101_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.64221875,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.87971875000001,"end":128.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.47034375,"end":132.90471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.689,"end":30.05,"text":"首先謝謝我們游院長能夠在今天能夠讓營養及健康營養促進法能夠三讀通過這是營養界已經期待40年倡議的40年的一個法今天能夠三讀通過真的非常的高興那也期望透過這次立法能夠建構健康飲食的支持環境來提升人民這個營養及健康飲食的智能"},{"start":30.49,"end":55.987,"text":"以及增進我們人民的健康那依據國健署的2017年到2020年的一個國民營養健康調查顯示20歲到64歲的民眾4個人裡面就有一個罹患代謝症候群代謝症候群被認為是以腦血管還有心臟病高血壓等慢性病的病發密切相關因此可以透過"},{"start":56.967,"end":71.62,"text":"一、強化營養的觀念二、建構健康營養的支持環境三、來協助民眾透過健康行為改善代謝症候群已經刻不容緩三、文法三讀有幾個重點一、對於營養諮詢會議的討論意見二、應採納適當的公民參與機制能夠廣納更多元的見解二、明定我們職管機關及各目的事業職管機關"},{"start":83.911,"end":102.683,"text":"因逐年編列預算辦理有關營養及健康促進的一個還有衛教的一個工作第三個是衛福部過去常規執行的營養調查研究及建置食品的營養成分的資料庫也因明文入法那也希望能夠邀請它定期發布"},{"start":104.199,"end":128.041,"text":"最後我要特別謝謝這個邱太元召委的排審能夠讓這一次這個期待已久的法案能夠通過那我要特別謝謝這兩屆以來持續提供我建議的營養師公會全聯會以及黃清真教授以及潘文函教授能夠提供協助那也盼立法之後我們公司協力讓我們共同逐步建立更好的營養環好 謝謝吳委員"}]}},{"id":"149036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/999752050c689f84872aa893d69a9357af19a15924b5246dc986728e607a0322b14477705634b9fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:57:13 - 10:59:28","影片長度":"00:02:15","會議時間":"2023-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 \n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-15","duration":135,"end_time":"2023-12-15T10:59:28+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-15T10:57:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.68346875,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.53971875,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.665968750000005,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.01971875,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.844093750000006,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":77.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.19096875000001,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.37409375,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.04846875000001,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.83096875000001,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.78409375000001,"end":133.17471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.221,"end":37.69,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁大家辛苦了運動是新興國力發展體育提振運動產業我們做最多也做最好過去8年政府對運動發展的政策不斷加深加廣加碼全民瘋體育提振了運動賽事的活絡而購票進場看球賽為運動員加油更成了臺灣人的日常尤其年輕世代更是支持運動賽事的主力消費者"},{"start":38.59,"end":62.6,"text":"但是黃牛無孔不入,擼起擼大胃,成為所有運動迷的心頭之恨向黃牛宣戰,要對症下藥今天,運動產業發展條例24條之一完成修訂《跟進文創法》感謝國會有志一同跨黨派支持,發揮意識的高效率運產條例的修法,讓打擊黃牛再下一程黃牛注意了"},{"start":63.821,"end":82.476,"text":"將運動賽事票券加價販售可裁罰票券金額或定價的10到50倍以不正方式掃票或是電腦大量掃票則除以3年以下的遊戲圖形新台幣300萬以下罰金讓黃牛罰得到也罰得痛事實證明修法確實有效"},{"start":83.317,"end":95.292,"text":"文創法的黃牛條款上路之後﹐文化部就收到超過1300件的檢舉案﹐各縣市都有開罰成立的案例﹐4個月的查緝開罰件數﹐高於過去10年的執行總數"},{"start":99.457,"end":117.89,"text":"所以查緝黃牛確實立法是有效的作為而查緝黃牛也需要配套例如建立檢舉制度給予吹哨者獎金推動鼓勵但不強制的實名制以及研議建立具有公信力的換票平台都是我們未來努力的目標"},{"start":118.911,"end":133.028,"text":"感謝所有同仁來團結屠牛未來如果能夠制定黃牛專法整合跨部會所有的政策工具來查緝黃牛我想我們的努力應當持續下去謝謝大家大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"149035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/999752050c689f84ed6c44c541a0c8deaf19a15924b5246dc986728e607a032211ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"溫玉霞","委員發言時間":"09:11:19 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-15","duration":203,"end_time":"2023-12-15T09:11:05+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-15T09:07:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":14,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（9時7分）大家早。北一女區桂芝老師批評108課綱，為了去中國化大量刪除文言文，甚至連顧炎武的「廉恥」都刪掉，這是個無恥課綱。綠營政治人物群起攻擊，賴清德辯稱這只是原則指引，蕭美琴也說接軌世界、與時俱進，108課綱自實施以來截至112年11月的統計，校園霸凌的通報案件量增加3.61倍，從過去的791件暴增到2,860件，這個數字代表什麼？根據教育部國語辭典，「禮」是人類的行為規範，「義」是合宜的事情，「廉」是政治不貪、有節操，「恥」是羞愧的心，這些小至個人的言行心態，大到國家治理的原理原則，不應該是每個人應該遵守的嗎？這也是其他國家透過宗教、法律、文化要求每一個人都需要做到的，怎麼會成為賴清德口中課綱只是原則之一，而無禮、無義、寡廉鮮恥？這些是為了蕭美琴的跟世界接軌，只好與時俱進嗎？連禮義廉恥都可以揚棄，當然更無法做到孔子所說的「己所不欲，勿施於人」了。","最近我們看到賴清德在面對自己老家的違建爭議時，數度哽咽痛哭，忘了在臺南鐵路地下化決定東移時，強拆民宅、毀人家園的不也是臺南市長賴清德嗎？蕭美琴在面對自傳中只有美國籍的國籍爭議時，宣稱他從來沒有放棄過中華民國國籍，而我們的政府也全部為他背書，卻忘了在新冠疫情之中，當滯留在對岸的小明們，他們回臺來跟親人團聚及求學的這些權益，都被陳時中的一句話「自己選的國籍自己承擔」這麼決絕的拒絕嗎？","當然，民進黨執政後的黨政要員們以抄襲論文、洗學歷為榮，醜事頻傳，緋聞更是不斷，我們有看到新聞局長和記者，或者是高官跟他的隨扈，長時間假借職權與機會來性侵，還有婚後外遇，公然地曬小三、溜私生子，桃花朵朵開。這些都讓人家見識到，當這個政府如何去實施沒有禮義廉恥的原則指引？如何與世界接軌、與時俱進？"],["主席：謝謝游委員。","接下來請溫委員玉霞發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳以信","李德維","游毓蘭","溫玉霞"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2023-12-15"],"gazette_id":"1130107","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130107_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1130107_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.43534375,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.658468750000004,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.50596875,"end":57.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.540968750000005,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.28659375000001,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.29846875000001,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.79971875000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.82284375,"end":121.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.54784375000001,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.64409375000001,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.12471875,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.44909375,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.70971875,"end":166.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.63784375,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.74534375000002,"end":190.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.66784375,"end":198.85221875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.431,"end":36.946,"text":"大家早北印尼歐桂芝老師批評108課綱為了去中國化大量刪除文言文甚至連顧炎武的廉恥都刪掉這是個無恥課綱列印政治人物群起攻擊等賴清德辯稱說這只是原則指引蕭美琴也說節軌世界與時俱進"},{"start":38.387,"end":39.727,"text":"108課綱至實施以來﹐截至112年11月的統計﹐校園霸凌的通報案件量增加3.61倍﹐從過去的791件暴增到2860件﹐這個數字代表了什麼"},{"start":57.625,"end":85.485,"text":"根據教育部國語辭典理是人類的行為規範亦是合宜的事情聯是政治不貪有節操此是羞愧的心這些小自個人的言行心態大道國家治理的原理原則不應該是每個人應該遵守的嗎這也是其他國家透過宗教法律文化要求每一個人都需要做到的"},{"start":85.965,"end":101.32,"text":"怎麼會成為賴清的口中克剛指示原則之一無理、無義、寡廉、閒恥這些是為了要跟蕭美琴的跟世界接軌只好跟著與時俱進嗎"},{"start":104.041,"end":125.548,"text":"連禮儀連詞都可以揚起當然更無法做到孔子所說的即所不欲勿施於人了最近我們看到賴清德在面對自己老家的違建爭議時速度哽咽痛哭忘了在台南鐵路地下化決定東移時強拆民宅毀人家園的不也是"},{"start":126.878,"end":144.944,"text":"臺南市長賴新德巴小百姓在面對自傳中只有美國籍的國籍爭議時宣稱他從來沒有放棄過中華民國國籍而我們的政府也全部為他背書卻忘了在新冠疫情之中當滯留在對岸的小民們他們"},{"start":146.864,"end":163.361,"text":"回臺來跟親人團聚跟求學的這些權益都被陳時中的一句話自己選的國籍自己承擔這麼決絕的拒絕嗎當然民進黨執政後的黨政要員們一抄襲論文洗學歷"},{"start":167.225,"end":189.452,"text":"維榮、醜事頻傳、緋聞更是不斷我們有看到新聞局長和記者﹑或者是高官跟他的隨戶長時間假借職權與機會來做性侵還有在婚後外遇在公然的塞小三、六四生子這些桃花朵朵開"},{"start":190.852,"end":197.438,"text":"這些都讓人家見識到當這個政府如何去實施沒有禮義廉恥的原則指引"}]}},{"id":"149033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/999752050c689f8402949f63717d0807af19a15924b5246dc986728e607a032280da92c86ab9bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"09:04:15 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- 09:03:55","影片長度":"00:03:18","會議時間":"2023-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 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謝謝李委員接下來請劉委員預覽發言"},{"start":2274.653,"end":2297.168,"text":"大家早北英女歐貴之老師批評108課綱為了去中國化大量刪除文言文甚至連顧炎武的廉恥都刪掉這是個無恥課綱令政治人物群起攻擊等賴清德辯稱說這只是原則指引蕭美琴也說節軌世界與時俱進"},{"start":2298.609,"end":2299.931,"text":"108課綱至實施以來﹐截至112年11月的統計﹐校園霸凌的通報案件量增加3.61倍﹐從過去的791件暴增到2860件﹐這個數字代表了什麼"},{"start":2317.85,"end":2345.709,"text":"根據教育部國語辭典理是人類的行為規範亦是合宜的事情聯是政治不貪有節操此是羞愧的心這些小自個人的言行心態大道國家治理的原理原則不應該是每個人應該遵守的嗎這也是其他國家透過宗教法律文化要求每一個人都需要做到的"},{"start":2346.169,"end":2361.527,"text":"怎麼會成為賴清德口中克剛指示原則之一無理、無義、寡廉、閒恥這些是為了要跟蕭美琴的跟世界接軌只好跟著與時俱進嗎"},{"start":2364.269,"end":2388.178,"text":"連禮儀連詞都可以揚起當然更無法做到孔子所說的即所不欲勿施於人了最近我們看到賴清德在面對自己老家的違建爭議時速度哽咽痛哭忘了在台南鐵路地下化決定東移時強拆民宅毀人家園的不也是台南市長賴清德嗎"},{"start":2389.583,"end":2404.921,"text":"蕭美琴在面對自賺中只有美國籍的國籍爭議時﹐宣稱她從來沒有放棄過中華民國國籍﹐而我們的政府也全部為她背書﹐卻忘了在新冠疫情之中﹐當滯留在對岸的小民們﹐"},{"start":2407.083,"end":2407.383,"text":"本院財政委員會討論"},{"start":2427.428,"end":2449.661,"text":"維榮、醜事頻傳、緋聞更是不斷我們有看到新聞局長和記者﹐或者是高官跟他的隨戶﹐長時間假借職權與機會來做信心﹐還有在婚後外遇﹐在公然的塞小三、六四生子﹐這些桃花朵朵開"},{"start":2451.079,"end":2471,"text":"這些都讓人家見識到當這個政府如何去實施沒有禮義廉恥的原則指引好 謝謝余委員接下來請溫委員逸霞發言"},{"start":2492.179,"end":2519.045,"text":"主席、各位同仁、大家早今天我是以感恩的心情出席這個國事論壇回想四年前進入國會,懷著忐忑不安的心情萬萬沒想到竟然會是收穫滿滿的四年一起來代表僑胞與台商我曾經擔任過僑務委員、總統府國際顧問尤其在擔任世界台灣商會聯合總會的總會長之時曾和政府有過非常頻繁的接觸"},{"start":2520.575,"end":2528.889,"text":"但是擔任立委之後從請託別人到被人請託我才發現原來身份的轉換現實的差距是這麼的大"},{"start":2530.953,"end":2557.78,"text":"走過這一段歷程雖然辛苦但結果是十分的甘甜真的是非常有意義的人生經歷我要感謝國民黨的立委同仁四年前我初次踏入這個國會殿堂謝謝你們給玉霞指導與鼓勵尤其我們並肩作戰對抗民進黨的那段抗爭的過程雖然辛苦但這種共同打拚的革命情感令人珍惜"},{"start":2559.434,"end":2580.308,"text":"我也要感謝國會辦公室的同仁我們一起完成了一次又一次的任務有一些順利完成祝人為快樂之本有一些未能完成還有一些容忍在繼續推動之中我很希望說我們的接棒繼續的推動"},{"start":2581.75,"end":2608.235,"text":"這四年的每一天我們都是兢兢業業所以是把人民的利益放在最優先我們毫無例外如今還有一些未完成的工作希望下一屆的立委能夠接力的推動一起為人民造福第一 建立海外國人不在己的投票制度第二 爭取海外台商的僑胞應有的權益"},{"start":2609.986,"end":2629.317,"text":"3、擴大開放社福類的外籍移工來台降低申請門檻4、恢復退役上校子女的教育補助金5、提高護理人員的待遇改善資產環境這四年將是我一生中最難忘的四年"},{"start":2630.239,"end":2659.527,"text":"未來無論走到哪裡走到天涯海角感恩的心已經讓我們緊緊的相連在一起最後喻小榮要懇請大家一定要投票投給真正為百姓服務不獨一黨之師的總統和立委的候選人選協議呢是我們國家才能有未來的希望我這裡要特別感謝再次的感謝也謝謝大家祝大家身體健康事事如意"},{"start":2661.24,"end":2668.843,"text":"登記國事論壇發言委員"},{"start":5435.535,"end":5446.154,"text":"請林秘書長報告出席人數出席委員是7人以足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請林秘書長宣讀第8會期第11次會議（事錄"},{"start":5449.915,"end":5455.3,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議議事錄時間 中華民國112年12月8日上午9時至9時6分10時1分至12時10分12月12日上午9時32分至12時30分下午5時至5時2分"},{"start":5471.916,"end":5489.949,"text":"地點 本院議場出席委員 邱委員 陳衍等104人請假委員 洪委員 孟凱等8人主席 院長游錫坤 副院長蔡吉昌報告事項 第一案先讀本院第10屆第8會期第10次會議一事錄決定確定第二至"},{"start":5495.353,"end":5512.726,"text":"第228案、第230案、第232案至659案均決定交付相關委員會審查或交付相關委員會第229案、第231案均決定退回程序委員會重新提出"},{"start":5513.366,"end":5536.532,"text":"第660案至663案為交通委員會等所提之報告案第664案為行政院函送本院委員提案之嚴處情形執行事項甲行政院答覆部分18件以本院委員執行部分6件討論事項第一案至20案經決議通過"},{"start":5539.755,"end":5564.306,"text":"第二十一案決議．案請由院長召集協商協商後再行處理第二十二案決議．請行政院嚴處第二十三案暫不處理其他事項一、民進黨黨團提議變更議程一案已通過二、民進黨黨團及臺灣民眾黨黨團分別提議抽出淨富二讀一案今已通過先讀完畢"},{"start":5567.628,"end":5593.318,"text":"報告委員會 針對第8會期第11次會議一事錄並如委員或黨團提出錯誤或疑弱之處作為下次宣告 第8會期第11次會議一事錄確定 請先讀第二案第二案 本院委員吳思瑤等16名鄰居不亦一致保存條例草案請審議案程序委員會見 您請回交教育界文化委員會審查宣讀完畢好 沒有意見通過 下案"},{"start":5593.956,"end":5615.069,"text":"第3案本院委員陳培宇等19人離聚注本《文化、產業、專心法》草案請審案陳秀元會見李晴玉匯交交際文化委員會審查宣讀完畢好 通過審案第4案本院委員趙天麟等17人離聚自動安全管理法修正草案請審案陳秀元會見李晴玉匯交交通委員會審查宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":5615.888,"end":5636.082,"text":"第5案本院委員趙天麟等18人離聚住宅法第4條條文修憲草案請選案陳秀永會接李錦惠交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第6案本院委員何志偉等17人離聚消防法部分條文修憲草案請選案陳秀永會接李錦惠交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5636.903,"end":5659.372,"text":"第7案本院委員何志偉等16人聯聚所得稅法第5條條維修正常勤審議案陳秀元會監理及匯交財政委員會審查宣讀完畢報告下案第8案本院委員何志偉等17人聯聚內政部警政署組織法第2條條維修正常勤審議案陳秀元會監理及匯交司法及法律內政兩委員會審查宣讀完畢報告下案"},{"start":5660.152,"end":5684.083,"text":"第9案本院委員何志偉等17人離聚農業部組織法第二條條維修政策案請審議案程序委員會建立行會交司法及法制經濟兩委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第10案本院委員何志偉等16人離聚經濟部組織法第二條條維修政策案請審議案程序委員會建立行會交司法及法制經濟兩委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5684.703,"end":5710.642,"text":"第11案本院委員何志偉等16人離聚氣候變遷因應法第5條條維修正常案請審議案柴旭委員會屆尼吉會交社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通教育及文化令委員會審查宣讀完畢通過審案第12案本院委員趙鴻祿等17人離聚公職委員參選申報法第5條條維修正常案請審議案柴旭委員會屆尼吉會交司法及法就委員會審查宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":5711.122,"end":5732.752,"text":"第13案本院委員張宏祿等18人離聚運動產業發展條例增列第24條之一條文採完請選一案陳秀元會見李錦惠加入交易及文化委員會審查宣傳閉通過下案第14案本院委員張宏祿等16人離聚工廠管理輔導法第31條條文修正採完請選一案陳秀元會見李錦惠加入經濟委員會審查宣傳閉通過下案"},{"start":5735.653,"end":5759.982,"text":"第15案本院委員張宏祿等18人離聚消防法第43條及第43條之一條文修正草原情緒案陳秀揚會見逆境匯交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通告下案第16案本院委員張宏祿等16人離聚噪音管制法第26條及第28條條文修正草原情緒案陳秀揚會見逆境匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":5760.542,"end":5777.886,"text":"第17案本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚﹐領導建設條例第3條﹐第7條及第7條之一條維修正常勤審案﹐陳秀元會監理及委員會交付經濟委員會審查宣傳並報告下案第18案本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚﹐領導建設條例第5條﹐條維修正常勤審案﹐陳秀元會監理及委員會交付經濟委員會審查宣傳並報告下案第19案"},{"start":5784.167,"end":5806.279,"text":"本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚（領導建設條例第10條條文修正草原情緒案．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第20案本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚（領導建設條例第14條第14條之一及第18條之一條文修正草原情緒案．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5809.441,"end":5830.34,"text":"第二十一案本院委員陳玉珍等16人離聚離島建設條例第16條條文修正草原請審案陳秀元會見立行會交經濟委員會審查宣傳並報告下案第二十二案本院委員范雲等17人離聚消防法部分條文修正草原請審案陳秀元會見立行會交內政委員會審查宣傳並報告下案"},{"start":5830.84,"end":5853.597,"text":"第二十三案本院委員外美領等17人．據《老人福利法》增訂第34條之一條文採完請選案陳秀元會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳閉通過審案第二十四案本院委員外美領等17人．據《醫療法》第106條條文修正採完請選案陳秀元會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳閉通過審案"},{"start":5854.958,"end":5868.017,"text":"第二十五案本院委員外媒林等17人聯聚緊急醫療救護法第二條及第十四條之一條文修憲採完行審案程序委員會見你請匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":5868.803,"end":5891.908,"text":"第26案本院委員外媒0等17人離聚社會救助法第4條及第11條條無修正裁判請審案陳秀恩會見立行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳完畢通過下案第27案本院委員外媒0等17人離聚政府採購法第98條條無修正裁判請審案陳秀恩會見立行匯交交通委員會審查宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":5892.368,"end":5908.053,"text":"第二十八案本院委員憲宜奉等16人理據住宅法第四條條文修正草案請審案陳秀文會見你請回交內政委會審查宣傳完畢報告下案第二十九案本院委員吳思瑤等16人理據今年基本法草案請審案"},{"start":5909.093,"end":5933.647,"text":"程序委員會建立行會教教育界文化委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第30案本院委員羅美玲等16人離聚海洋保育法草案請審案程序委員會建立行會教內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第31案本院委員林維瑞等16人離聚性別平等工作法第15條條文修正草案請審案程序委員會建立行會教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5936.008,"end":5960.095,"text":"第32案本院時代列讓黨團凝聚能供申請法部分條文修正草案精選議案﹐採訊委員會間﹐你請回交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩務委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第33案本院時代列讓黨團凝聚租賃住宅市場發展習慣例條例立即條條文修正草案精選議案﹐採訊委員會間﹐你請回交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5960.555,"end":5980.715,"text":"第34案《行政與環境審議工廠管理輔導法》第28條之14、第31條及第39條條文修正草案案陳秀元會見李景輝交經濟委員會審查宣傳並通過下案第35案《行政與環境審議消防法部分條文修正草案案》陳秀元會見李景輝交內政委員會審查宣傳並通過下案"},{"start":5981.696,"end":5996.592,"text":"第36案．基礎監督管理委員會函送《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正案之稅市支出評估報告及研議開放REITs在基金架構修正投信投顧法場案延伸會議會記錄程序委員會見議請會交財政委員會處理宣傳完畢通過先案"},{"start":6000.436,"end":6002.496,"text":"第37案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交教育及文化委員會審查下案"},{"start":6022.816,"end":6023.517,"text":"公告下案"},{"start":6043.295,"end":6043.615,"text":"通過下案"},{"start":6067.23,"end":6091.783,"text":"第42 行政委行為中華民國111年6月8日修正公佈之《國家安全法》第一條等條文訂自112年12月1日施行程序委員會見理情會交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第41 行政委行為中華民國111年6月8日修正公佈之《國家安全法》第三條第一項等條文訂自112年12月5日施行程序委員會見理情會交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6092.723,"end":6118.273,"text":"第四十二案 前經委行為中華民國112年6月28日修正公布之《入出國籍移民法》第三條等條文定自113年1月1日施行第七條之一等條文定自113年3月1日施行才修行會件你請回交內政委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第四十三案 前經委行為修正國家安全法施行新則部分條文才修行會件你請回交內政司法及法治兩委員會宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":6118.793,"end":6131.686,"text":"第44案銜金衛函送檢查機關及司法警察機關錄音錄影資料保管辦法長訊文會見理事委員會交互司法及法治委員會宣傳外賓公告下案第45案銜金衛函為中華民國112年9月23日定定發布之陸人資料保護委員會籌備處暫行組織規程"},{"start":6138.633,"end":6148.502,"text":"個人資料保護委員會籌備處辦事細則及個人資料保護委員會籌備處編制表除個人資料保護委員會籌備處暫行組織規程第2條第3款個人資料保護委員會籌備處辦事細則第5條第2款訂自113年1月1日施行外其餘條文及編制表訂自112年12月5日施行展示委員會建立監議會交由司法及法治經濟兩委委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":6162.506,"end":6168.565,"text":"第45案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交司法、法治、經濟兩委會審查下案"},{"start":6170.407,"end":6192.879,"text":"第46案 協議會韓維修正中小企業政策審議委員會組織規審第3條及第6條條文﹐協修委員會建立行會教育司法及法治經濟兩委員會﹐宣讀完畢通告下案第47案 協議會韓總國家核心關鍵技術項目及其主管機關併自112年12月5日生效﹐協議會韓維修正國家核心關鍵技術項目及其主管機關併自112年12月5日生效﹐協修委員會建立行會教育及文化委員會﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":6194.195,"end":6202.001,"text":"第47案國民黨黨團、臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查決定交教育及文化委員會審查下案"},{"start":6202.642,"end":6229.58,"text":"第40法案 行政委員會修正科技產業園區作業基金收支保管及運用辦法第二條、第六條、第十一條條文及產業園區開發管理基金收支保管及運用辦法第二條、第六條、第七條條文呈訊委員會見、理情會交、基金委員會宣布完畢通告下第49案 行政委員會修正中小企業研究發展支出適用投資體檢辦法第六條及第十七條條文呈訊委員會見、理情會交、基金委員會宣布完畢通告下"},{"start":6230.24,"end":6240.708,"text":"第50案行政委員會修正經濟部智慧財產局從事專利雙秒審查工作之聘用專業人員資格辦法第一條及第二條條文採訊委員會建立經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第51案"},{"start":6245.231,"end":6245.411,"text":"通過下案"},{"start":6262.347,"end":6291.105,"text":"第52案 行政委函送外交部擬拒致國際合作發展政策白皮書﹐程序委員會建立警衛將外交及國防委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案第53案 行政委函送本院修正性騷擾防治法﹐通過附帶決議這說明﹐程序委員會建立警衛將社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案第54案 行政委函為修正環境教育基金收支保護及運用辦法部分條文﹐程序委員會建立警衛將社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":6291.785,"end":6306.441,"text":"第55案 內政部航運修正已由消防組織編組訓練演習服勤班法第26條條文 採訊委員會間你請回交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第56案 內政部航運修正只採訊現實消防機關救護車輛裝備人力配置標準第6條條文 採訊委員會間你請回交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6313.468,"end":6339.262,"text":"第57案 內政務行為非指督導各級人民團體實施辦法及人民團體立案證書頒發規則陳秀元會見內警會交內政委員會宣讀完畢通過審案第58案 內政務行為修正警察監管學校行政學員生食物訓練特殊作業及專業警察員服事標示規定第二點及第23點之一規定陳秀元會見內警會交內政委員會宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":6339.702,"end":6359.441,"text":"第59案 內政部函送內政部消防署出入歸省等22項法規及編制表陳秀揚會見內政會交司法及法律內政兩委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第60案 內政部函送內政部國家公園署出入歸省等22項法規及編制表陳秀揚會見內政會交司法及法律內政兩委員會宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":6359.929,"end":6371.964,"text":"第61案 內政部函送內政部股東署﹑出戶歸宸﹑國土管理署﹑出戶歸宸等13項法規及編制表陳秀恩會見 您請回交司法及法徵內政兩委員會宣討完畢通過下案"},{"start":6372.472,"end":6394.45,"text":"第62案 內政部行為廢止內政部法規委員會．組織規程等8項法規及編制表．持續委員會間．移情匯交司法及法制內政兩委員會．宣布完畢通過審案第63案 內政部行為廢止內政部營建．署辦事細則等5項法規及編制表．持續委員會間．移情匯交司法及法制內政兩委員會．宣布完畢通過審案"},{"start":6394.89,"end":6418.199,"text":"第64案 內政部罕為廢止內政部消防署辦事細則等五項法規陳秀陽會見你請回交司法及法治內政兩委員會宣告完畢通過下案第65案 內政部國防部罕為廢止臺灣地區縣警外事勤務權責劃分及聯繫辦法陳秀陽會見你請回交內政外交及國防兩委員會宣告完畢通過下案"},{"start":6418.854,"end":6438.219,"text":"第66案海洋委員會海外修正海洋氣質許可管理辦法採訊委員會間引起委員會交內政委員會宣讀完畢通過審案第67案國防部海外修正空軍中央學校組織規程第5條第6條及第7條條文採訊委員會間引起委員會交司法及法治外交及國防兩委員會宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":6438.719,"end":6441.962,"text":"60法案 國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交外交及國防委員會審查下案"},{"start":6456.803,"end":6476.946,"text":"第69案．公務委員會函送113年度永久居留權．取得困難之國家或地區及其居留資格認定基準．修委員會見．立行委員會交及國防委員會．宣傳完畢通過寫案第70案．經濟部海外修正．原產地證明書及加工證明書管理辦法．修委員會見．立行委員會交經濟委員會．宣傳完畢"},{"start":6477.426,"end":6494.086,"text":"通過審案第七十一案經濟部海外修正瀕臨絕種種植物及其產製品輸出入管理辦法陳修援會見理情匯交經濟委員會宣討完畢通過審案第七十二案經濟部海外修正法定度量行期所涵蓋種類及範圍陳修援會見理情匯交經濟委員會宣討完畢"},{"start":6497.31,"end":6497.85,"text":"通過下案通過下案通過下案通過下案"},{"start":6520.618,"end":6544.153,"text":"第75案經濟部海維修陣設置非再生能源自自用發電設備業務報表申報及查核辦法第二條及第八條條文財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣誓完畢通過審案第76案經濟部海維修陣供用受電業供受電能報表申報及查核辦法第二條及第八條條文財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣誓完畢通過審案"},{"start":6546.054,"end":6565.089,"text":"第70期案（經濟末廉維修正再生能源發電設備設置者與電業專業調節辦法第二條條文（採訊委員會建立行會將接近委員會宣傳完畢通過審案第70方案（經濟末廉維修正貨品輸出管理辦法（採訊委員會建立行會將接近委員會宣傳完畢通過審案"},{"start":6565.569,"end":6586.626,"text":"第79案．經濟部行為國營事業編列．研究發展支出．占總預算比例．名稱修正為．國營事業編列．研究發展支出．暫期總支出．預算比例．修正規定．承受委員會見．例行會交．經濟委員會．宣讀完畢通告下案第80案．經濟部行為修正．礦業權費收費辦法．承受委員會見．例行會交．經濟委員會．宣讀完畢"},{"start":6589.81,"end":6605.677,"text":"通過下案第81案經濟目海維修正輸出入戶品電子潛水管理辦法採訊委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳改變通過下案第82案經濟目海維修正裝預前檢驗監控管理辦法部分條文採訊委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳改變通過下案"},{"start":6608.878,"end":6632.538,"text":"第84案經濟部海維修正除時卸容許後用能源基準與能源效率分級標示方式分級標示事項方法及檢查方式曾修容會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案第84案經濟部海維修正貿易處分案件聲明意義處理辦法部分條文曾修容會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案"},{"start":6633.098,"end":6653.306,"text":"第85案經濟部函送經濟部受理戰略性高分析貨品堅定收費標準財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣布完畢報告下案第86案經濟部海外修正採取土石免申辦土石採取許可管理辦法財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣布完畢86案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交經濟委員會審查下案"},{"start":6658.547,"end":6685.701,"text":"第87案經濟幕行為張濱工業區縣溪淨水場工業用水使用廢廢率明確修正為張濱產業園區縣溪淨水場工業用水使用廢廢率並修正規定陳修揚會見理行會交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第88案經濟幕行修正原住民地區參與再生能源設置示範獎勵辦法第二條條文陳修揚會見理行會交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":6686.201,"end":6700.894,"text":"第89案經濟部航運修正外銷水產品特約檢驗辦法第2條條文陳修揚會見你請願回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案第90案經濟部航運修正盤水管理辦法第7條、第9條及第30條條文陳修揚會見你請會交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案"},{"start":6706.243,"end":6711.866,"text":"第91案經濟物財政部航運修正科技產業園區保稅醫務管理辦法部分條文及科技產業園區區內事業從事轉運業務課稅作業辦法部分條文財修委員會見引請匯交經濟財政兩委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6722.091,"end":6741.715,"text":"第92案經濟部財政部還未修正公司或有限合夥事業研究發展支出適用投資體檢辦法第8條基地19條條文等思想法規陳秀元會見你請回交經濟財政兩委員會宣布完畢通過審案第93案經濟部內全部還未修正商業團體分業標準增訂虛擬通貨商業團體業別及業務範圍陳秀元會見你請回交經濟內政兩委員會宣布完畢通過審案"},{"start":6748.998,"end":6759.455,"text":"第九十四案經濟部交通部海維修正資料容許後用能源標準及檢查管理辦法第二條條文講述委員會見你請回交經濟交通兩委員會宣讀完畢通過寫案"},{"start":6761.141,"end":6774.913,"text":"第95案 農業部行為促進農業部農田水利組織門管理處農田水利稅市範圍程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳閉通告這案第96案 農業部行為行政與農業委員會花蓮區農業改良廠辦理農藥田間試驗收費標準名稱修正為農業部花蓮區農業改良廠辦理農藥田間試驗收費標準並修正條文程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳閉通告這案"},{"start":6788.695,"end":6795.665,"text":"第97案 農業部航運行政院農業委員會﹐高雄區農業改良廠﹐奔領農藥體監訓研收費標準﹐名稱修正為﹐農業部高雄區農業改良廠﹐奔領農藥體監訓研收費標準﹐並修正條文在修理委員會間﹐你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":6806.141,"end":6830.26,"text":"第98案農業部海運修正公告．美國北達科他州．自高病原性家庭流行性感冒肺炎去身處．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會．宣布完畢通過審案第99案農業部海運修正公告．美國威斯康星州．自高病原性家庭流行性感冒肺炎去身處．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會．宣布完畢通過審案"},{"start":6831.331,"end":6842.946,"text":"第102 農業部海域修正公告．美國馬里蘭州自高避免性家庭流行性感冒非去刪除．宣揚會見．您請回交基金委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":6843.601,"end":6869.02,"text":"第101案農業部喊為修正公告美國查治亞州及俄亥俄州自高平原性價錢流失性感冒非議區刪除陳修揚會見你請回交捐獻委員會宣討完畢通過審案第102案農業部喊為行政院農業委員會補助及獎勵農業保險保險人辦法明確修正為農業部補助及獎勵農業保險保險人辦法並修正第6條及第9條條文陳修揚會見你請回交捐獻委員會宣討完畢通過審案"},{"start":6872.603,"end":6891.901,"text":"第103案 農業部函為行政院農業委員會查列改良廠﹐受託辦理、查頁、品質檢驗及建設收費標準﹐名稱修正為﹐農業部查行料作物改良廠﹐受託辦理、查頁、品質檢驗及建設收費標準﹐並修正條文﹐求修文會見﹐理行會及經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":6893.142,"end":6900.006,"text":"議案第104案 農業部函維協政院農業委員會臺中區農業改良廠分離農藥田間訓研收費標準 名稱修正為農業部臺中區農業改良廠分離農藥田間訓研收費標準並修正條文採訊委員會間 立行會長經濟委員會宣傳畢通過下案"},{"start":6910.151,"end":6937.974,"text":"第105案農業幕海委行政院．農業委員會．科學技術研究發展．成果歸屬及應用辦法．名稱修正為．農業部科學技術研究發展．成果歸屬及應用辦法．並修正條文．採修委員會件．你請回交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第106案農業幕海委修正．農業用地變更回饋金．剝繳及分配利用辦法．第8條條文採修委員會件．你請回交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案那個106案"},{"start":6939.516,"end":6942.129,"text":"國民黨黨團第一改交審查決定交進行委員審查下"},{"start":6943.837,"end":6970.792,"text":"第107案（農業部海維修正委員神釣魚全副大西洋作業管理分法部分條文及第6條附件4附件5第61條附件13（程序委員會間你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢好 通過下案第108案（農業部海維修正從事農業工作（農民申請參加農民健康保險認定標準及資格審查辦法部分條文程序委員會間你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6971.252,"end":6993.988,"text":"第109案農業部海外修正遠洋漁業條例第17條定向所定與我國相互執行公海等簡直國家及指定船舶程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣布完畢報告下案第110案農業部海外修正公告美國科羅拉多州自高明遠性加強流行性感冒肺炎去刪除程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":6995.646,"end":7023.651,"text":"通過下案第111案財政部行為機動調降普特蘭一型水泥汽油及產油貨物稅應徵稅額財政委員會建立行會交財政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第111案財政部行為機動調降牛肉烘焙用、奶粉、奶油、污水、奶油及小麥等22項貨品關稅稅率實施期限自113年1月1日起至同年3月31日至財政委員會建立行會交財政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7024.191,"end":7038.142,"text":"第113案財政部海綿修正轉運及轉口戶通關管理辦法部分條文．勸委員會建立行會交財政委員會宣讀完畢113案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交財政委員會審查下案"},{"start":7038.72,"end":7041.122,"text":"114案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交財政委員會審查下案"},{"start":7054.861,"end":7056.723,"text":"115案國民黨黨團體改組審查決定交財政委員審查下"},{"start":7071.809,"end":7073.89,"text":"116案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定交財政委員審查下案"},{"start":7092.967,"end":7115.889,"text":"第11期案．一部海外修正學校法人及其所屬私立學校教職員．修復序離職此前條例實行新則部分條文．修行會見臨行會教育司法及法治教育界文化兩位委員會．宣討完畢通過下案第118案．一部海外修正國家圖書館編制表．修行會見臨行會教育司法及法治教育界文化兩位委員會．宣討完畢通過下案"},{"start":7116.449,"end":7140.147,"text":"第1、9案教育部函域修正教育部特殊教育諮詢會設置辦法陳修揚會見你請回交教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案第1、2、0案教育部函域修正國立特殊教育學校及國立高級中等以下學校特殊教育教師每週教學結束標準第一條及第12條條文陳修揚會見你請回交教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":7140.7,"end":7160.428,"text":"第1、2、1案教育部韓維費值高級中等進修學校學生成績考察辦法陳修文會見理情會教教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案第1、2、2案教育部韓維修正國民中學進業教育實施辦法部分條文陳修文會見理情會教教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":7161.048,"end":7189.762,"text":"第123案教育部函偉修正國民體制能檢測實施辦法﹐財修委員會見您請回交教育及文化委員會宣告完畢公告下案第124案教育部函偉修正幼兒教保及照顧服務實施準則部分條文財修委員會見您請回交教育及文化委員會宣告完畢公告下案第125案教育部函偉修正教育部甚至學術獎辦法第二條、第五條及第七條、十一條文財修委員會見您請回交教育及文化委員會宣告完畢"},{"start":7190.762,"end":7191.242,"text":"通過下案通過下案通過下案"},{"start":7211.437,"end":7238.103,"text":"第128案 教育部行為生性障礙成人教育及﹐終身學習活動實施辦法﹐名稱修正為﹐生性障礙成人終身學習活動實施辦法﹐並修正條文採訊和會見﹐你請回交交集文化委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案第129案 教育部行為修正﹐高級中等校學校及幼兒園﹐閩南語師資培育及聘用辦法﹐第二條及第三條條文採訊和會見﹐你請回交交集文化委員會﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":7239.11,"end":7256.562,"text":"通過宣案第13領案就一部行為特殊教育課程教材教法及憑良方式實施辦法明確修正為高級中等下學校特殊教育課程教材教法及憑良實施辦法並修正部分規定陳修揚會計的年輕會教教育及文化委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":7258.03,"end":7270.084,"text":"通過下案第131案 教育部交通部海維修正學校消動社育管理辦法第3條、第10條及第11條條文採訊委員會見議請回交教育界文化交通兩委委會宣傳並"},{"start":7272.441,"end":7291.316,"text":"王國賢第一、三、二、二﹐國家科學及技術委員會﹐函送祝加拿大臺北經濟文化代表處﹐與加拿大駐臺北貿易辦事處﹐間﹐科學技術合作了解備用路﹐中英法文引本程序委員會見﹐請回交交集文化外交及國防兩委員會宣誓完畢"},{"start":7292.438,"end":7294.1,"text":"通過下案通過下案"},{"start":7308.055,"end":7331.378,"text":"第13、42河南安全委員會函送國家原子能科技研究院績效評鑑辦法第3條條文集逐條說明看護票陳迅委員會見你請回交交通外交及國防兩位委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第13、52命交通部函送臺越觀光合作瞭解備用路續約附路陳迅委員會見你請回交交通外交及國防兩位委員會宣讀完畢好通過下案"},{"start":7331.823,"end":7351.761,"text":"第136案交通部海維修正車輛變換及運用辦法第4條、第8條及第9條文採取委員會見你行會交交通委員會宣誓完畢通過審案第137案交通部海維公告採用國際海事組織IMO所屬海事安全委員會MSC第105次會議所採納MSC.500105決議之國際海事固體省專貨物IMS"},{"start":7358.287,"end":7377.782,"text":"B、C章程修正案柴修委員會見你請回交交通委員會宣布外幣通過下案第13頒案數位發展部還未廢止網際網路零售業及網際網路零售服務平台業﹐個人資料等安全維護計畫及業務終止後﹐個人資料處理作業辦法柴修委員會見你請回交交通委員會"},{"start":7378.522,"end":7398.179,"text":"宣讀完畢通告下案第1392 司法院航運修正法官職務評定班法第二條及第16條條文採取委員會見你請回交司法及法事務委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第1402 考試院航運修正公務人員申請法實行細則部分條文採取委員會見你請回交司法及法事務委員會宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":7398.679,"end":7423.391,"text":"第141案 考試院函文修正公務人員高端考試3等考試及普通考試規則第12條條文第2條附表1及第4條附表3採訊委員會建立行匯交司法及法治委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第142案 考試院函文修正公務人員特種考試一般檢查人員考試規則第6條第11條條文及第5條附表2採訊委員會建立行匯交司法及法治委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7424.291,"end":7441.436,"text":"第13次案．法務部函為修正法務部編制表陳秀元會見．立行會交 司法及法治委員會宣讀完畢通過審案第14次案．勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部分條文通過附帶決議第三項是說明陳秀元會見．立行會交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":7442.156,"end":7465.645,"text":"宣讀完畢通過下案第145案勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決定7項之說明採訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第146案勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決定8項之說明採訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7466.145,"end":7487.652,"text":"第1次起案 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部門條文通過附帶決議第9項之說明 陳修揚會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳會議 通過下案第1次方案 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部門條文通過附帶決議第11項之說明 陳修揚會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳會議 通過下案"},{"start":7488.212,"end":7509.906,"text":"第149案．勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法．部分條文通過附帶決定十三項之說明．修文會見．請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第150案．勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法．部分條文通過附帶決定十三項之說明．修文會見．請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7510.786,"end":7533.125,"text":"第1512 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決議第14項之說明８採訊委員會建立新匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會８宣讀完畢通過下案第1522 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決議第15項之說明８採訊委員會建立新匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會８宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7534.386,"end":7536.908,"text":"154案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定交社福利及衛生環境委員審查下案"},{"start":7562.489,"end":7591.596,"text":"第155案勞動部衛生修正執行室及縣市政府辦理協助職業災害勞工重返職場補助辦法部分條文採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢第155案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定交社會利益及衛生環境委員會審查下案第156案衛生福利部衛生環境委員會修正藥事法第27條之二必要藥品清單採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":7593.029,"end":7598.428,"text":"156案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7598.908,"end":7624.311,"text":"第157案衛生福利部函送食品器具容器包裝檢驗方法金屬合金類與食物直接接觸面為金屬合金者致檢驗採訊委員會建立行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣告下案第158案衛生福利部函會廢止真空包裝黃豆及食食品應向中央主管機關辦理查驗登記採訊委員會建立行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣告下案"},{"start":7624.791,"end":7653.846,"text":"第159案衛生福利部海維修正嚴憑零固定交由含量檢測其中其標示本法第11條及第12條條文採訊委員會見年輕會教社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢159案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定教授歷史衛生環境委員會審查下案第160案衛生福利部海維修正食品添加物規格檢驗方法使用藍色1號採訊委員會見年輕會教社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":7655.646,"end":7656.147,"text":"通告下案"},{"start":7673.408,"end":7697.42,"text":"第162案衛生福利部罕為廢止國家公園．國家自然公園．風景特定區及森林遊樂區．如副表所示之區域．與公園綠地為除西煙區外部的西煙．衛設西煙區．全面禁止西煙之場所．採訊委員會前．擬行外交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通告下案第163案衛生福利部罕為修正．全面健康保險．投保金額分期表並自113年"},{"start":7700.041,"end":7717.172,"text":"113年1月1日施行．訓委員會建立請回交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第164案衛生福利部海外修正食品總配糖生物減脂檢驗方法．訓委員會建立請回交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7718.032,"end":7738.42,"text":"第165案衛生福利部還未修正．農藥殘留容許量標準第3條附表1．第4條附表3．動物產品中．農藥殘留容許量標準第3條條文．採訊委員會建立請匯交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢165案國民黨黨團提交審查決定交受立即衛生環境委員審查下案"},{"start":7738.973,"end":7767.075,"text":"第1662 衛生福利部海外修正．品添加物規的檢驗方法．法堂基以虎皮肝病致113年1月1日生效．修委員會建立秦惠礁．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣傳完畢通過下案第1657 衛生福利部海外修正．中藥材研究診查費收費標準第二條第二條之一及第十條條文．修委員會建立秦惠礁．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7768.206,"end":7782.857,"text":"第16法案衛生福利部海外修正醫療現場許可證和方語登錄及年度申報準則部分條文及第5條附表1、第6條附表2、附表3採取委員會見你請換交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7783.337,"end":7805.471,"text":"第169案衛生福利部海維修正應訂定食品安全監測計畫與應辦理檢驗之食品驗者最低檢驗週期及其他相關事項的第18點規定並自113年7月1日生效求學員會見例行會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣布完畢169案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7806.038,"end":7835.631,"text":"第1702衛生福利部函為廢止健康食品工程良好作業規範．並自114年1月1日生效．詮訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第171案衛生福利部函送健康食品製造良好作業規範標準．詮訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢171案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7836.26,"end":7851.811,"text":"第172案衛生福利部函文修正函件決定特殊營養食品屏幕及遜印證．討論委員會兼例行為交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢172案國民黨黨團提改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7852.386,"end":7879.453,"text":"第174案衛生福利部罕為廢止食品添加物傳言登記相關規定財修委員會建立行會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第174案衛生福利部罕為修正食品與相關產品傳言登記及許可文件管理辦法財修委員會建立行會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢174案國民黨黨團提議改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7879.98,"end":7900.611,"text":"第175案衛生福利部函維修正衛生福利部各醫院辦事細則財修委員會見逆行匯交司法計畫則社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第176案環境部函維修正國家環境教育獎獎勵辦法第9條條文財修委員會見逆行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7901.091,"end":7925.069,"text":"第177案環境部海外修正汽油及替代清潔燃料引擎、汽車、車型排氣、水液合格證明、核發、稅銷及廢紙辦法﹐採訊委員會建立行外交、社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣傳完畢通告下案第178案環境部海外修正汽油及車廢棄排放測試方法與程序﹐採訊委員會建立行外交、社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣傳完畢"},{"start":7925.529,"end":7949.434,"text":"通過下案第179案環境部海外修正屬產業用料需求之事業廢棄物公告事項第一項採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第180案環境部海外修正事業廢棄物主存清除處理方法及順勢標準第4條之一及第29套套文採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":7950.594,"end":7976.883,"text":"議案 國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交稅務力及衛生環境委員審查下案議案 環境部本委中華民國111年4月28日定定公告之一次用飲料杯限制使用對象及實施方式公告事項 第1款有關澎湖縣飲料店部的提供塑膠一次用飲料杯實施日期定自113年7月1日施行甲醺氧會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":7977.783,"end":7996.9,"text":"第182案環境目函為中華民國111年4月28日定定公告之一次用飲料杯限制使用對象及實施方式公告事項三第一環有關南投線飲料店不得提供塑膠一次用飲料杯實施日期定自113年1月1日實行財修委員會建立行外交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":7998.241,"end":8021.953,"text":"第184案環境部函維行政與環境保護署資源回收費率審議委員會設置辦法明稱修正為環境部資源回收費率審議委員會設置辦法並修正條文財修委員會見你請匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第184案環境部函維修正署染防治費費率審議委員會設置辦法第3條第4條及第5條條文財修委員會見你請匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":8026.942,"end":8035.851,"text":"184案 國民黨黨團提改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查下案185案 國民黨黨團提改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查下案"},{"start":8048.032,"end":8064.005,"text":"第1862 環境部海外修正以網路傳輸方式 申報廢棄物質產出 儲存 清除 處理 再利用 輸出及輸入前期之申報格式項目 內容及頻率公告是項目第五項之一財經委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":8064.525,"end":8087.644,"text":"通過下案第187案環境部海外修正會發行有機物、空氣與污染管制及排放標準採訪委員會兼理情委員會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣布完畢通過下案第188案環境部函送本院制定環境部組織法通過附帶局第二項執法令進行採訪委員會兼理情委員會交司法及法徵社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣布完畢通過下案"},{"start":8088.164,"end":8111.696,"text":"第189案环境部函送本院制定环境部组织法通过附带决议第6项之807型採訊案彙建年轻会交司法及法治社会福利及卫生环境委员会宣传完毕通过下案第1902案环境部函送本院制定环境部组织法通过附带决议第8项之807型採訊案彙建年轻会交司法及法治社会福利及卫生环境委员会宣传完毕通过下案"},{"start":8112.276,"end":8135.264,"text":"第191案．環境部函送本院制定環境部組織法．通過附帶決定時向職辦人請行．強修委員會見．立行外交司法及法制．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣讀完畢通過下案第192案．環境部函送本院制定環境部組織法．通過附帶決定時向職辦人請行．強修委員會見．立行外交司法及法制．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":8136.324,"end":8157.327,"text":"第193案 環境部函總本院指定環境部化學物質管理署組織法．通過附帶決議之辦人清醒．詳細網友會見．您請獲交司法及法律社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過報告委員會第194案至第765案請依序宣讀"},{"start":8158.522,"end":8160.684,"text":"其中第202、21、215、218到21、225到232、235、239、353到355、353、385、387、388、415、427、431、432、488到602、640、657、670、737、729、747案國民黨黨團提議改交審查"},{"start":8181.004,"end":8190.472,"text":"第194、197、198、202、223、250到252、259、273、284、288、293、304、31、53、18、324、32、53、29、43、144、6、611、617、628、713案台灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀後以上提案經改交相關委員會審查其餘議案經照程序委員會意見通過請問院會有沒有異議"},{"start":8211.192,"end":8213.021,"text":"好 沒有異議 先讀或通過 請先讀"},{"start":8214.332,"end":8223.218,"text":"第194案 內宣部第199案 海洋委員會第200案 科教委員會第20案 大陸委員會第203案 外交部第205案 國防部第207案 經濟部第214案 農業部第217案 國家發展委員會第219案 財政部第222案 金融監督管理委員會第25案 行政局主席總署"},{"start":8243.573,"end":8266.566,"text":"第二任六案之第二任八案交易部第二任九案及第二三零案文化部第二三一案國家科學及技術委員會第二三二案及第二三三案鼓勵故宮博物院第二三四案之第二三八案交通部第二三九案數位發展部第二四零案司法院第二四一案勞動部第二四案環境部第二四三案之第二五零案衛生福利部"},{"start":8266.986,"end":8273.27,"text":"第25議案 經濟部第267案 農業部第302案 公平交易委員會第308案 國家發展委員會第344案 財政部第443案 中央銀行第469案 金融監督管理委員會第488案 交易部第550案 文化部第562案 國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":8295.322,"end":8308.977,"text":"第580案 直提589案 行政院原子能委員會第590案 直提594案 交通部第595案 直提602案 國家通訊傳播委員會第603案 直提616案 防務部第617案 直提620案 詮訊部第621案 直提624案 考選部"},{"start":8312.981,"end":8339.929,"text":"第625案之第696案勞動部第697案之第764案衛生福利部第765案交通部判為112年度相關預算113年度相關預算112年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算等預算權益分別遣送相關報告宣讀完畢報告委員會第766案以下請一併宣讀宣讀後均均準已被查請宣讀"},{"start":8340.748,"end":8368.183,"text":"第766案．本院交通委員會函．約會交付處理行政院公共工程委員會．一版審年度中央政府總預算十一等案．與處理完據第767案．第768案．本院社會福利及衛生環境交通委員會函．約會交付審查相關行政命令．均已與立法院職權行使法第60條所定審查期限第769案．第771案．行政委員喊送本院政務委員江華．遊務委員月蘭等所提臨時提案之嚴處盡行"},{"start":8369.664,"end":8394.046,"text":"諮詢事項．行政院答覆部分．行政院函送本院由委員預覽等．所聽諮詢之書面答覆共19件．以本院委員諮詢部分．本院理委員等為等．向行政院提出諮詢共2件．宣讀完畢報告委員會在進行討論事項之前先處理變更議程之提議並截止所案我們依提案先入順序處理現在處理"},{"start":8396.843,"end":8415.971,"text":"民進黨黨團提議變更疫情公益案其中有納入原住民身份法修正草案為第13案另外國民黨黨團也有相同提議將原住民身份法修正草案納入兩次會議討論事項我們就一併處理並列入公報記錄請議事人員一併先讀兩黨黨團提議之內容"},{"start":8423.581,"end":8449.838,"text":"本院民進黨黨團．針對第10屆第8會期第12次會議．討論事項（離情變更僅限列如下表16案．是否有當敬請公決本院國民黨黨團．針對本地12次會議．建議增列討論事項供應案．如下附表．順序授權議事處依序排列．是否有當敬請公決宣讀完畢請問委員會．對民進黨黨團．及國民黨黨團．變更議程有沒有意義"},{"start":8450.925,"end":8473.394,"text":"好沒有異議那提議均照案通過報告委員會院會方才通過討論事項總數及順序已定因此其他黨團便跟議程列入編制會議討論事項之提議就不再處理列入公報記錄報告委員會便跟議程提議經理處理完畢現在進行討論事項第一案"},{"start":8480.256,"end":8499.884,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案本案今﹐第8會期第11次會議決議﹐併案請由院長召集協商﹐協商後再請處理報告委員會本案亦已完成協商﹐是協商結論簽名後提出本次會議處理"},{"start":8504.107,"end":8507.533,"text":"討論事項第二案運動產力發展條例增訂第24條11條文草案等案請先讀審查報告"},{"start":8516.564,"end":8537.795,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年10月6日正開全體委員會議並案審查本案會中邀請提案委員說明提案指趣就業部部長潘文忠及相關人員列席報告並備諮詢會議由范兆桀委員擔任主席與會員於聽取說明基訊等後進行逐條討論完成本案審查令通過附帶決議影像"},{"start":8539.116,"end":8565.877,"text":"本案審查完畢並按理據審查報告提請委員會公決約會討論前不須交由黨團協商約會討論時由范兆傑委員予補充說明宣禮完畢請昭紀委員、范委員予補充說明沒有補充說明本案今審查會決議不須再交由黨團協商請問會有沒有異議沒有異議本案今依審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論"},{"start":8568.575,"end":8569.677,"text":"運動產業發展條例請宣讀增訂第24條之一"},{"start":8575.083,"end":8603.306,"text":"第24條之一政府應致力於保障民眾觀賞運動賽事或活動之權益確保運動賽事或活動票券正常流通將公開販售之運動賽事或活動票券以超過票面金額或將該運動賽事或活動無票面金額票券定價販售者按票券章數由主管機關處每張票面金額或無票面金額票券區域對照所應販售票面金額之10倍至50倍罰還"},{"start":8605.167,"end":8629.421,"text":"將全面或部分免費入場制運動賽事或活動免費票券定價販售者按票券章數由主管機關儲每張票券新台幣18,000元向罰款此虛偽資料或其他補充方式利用電腦或其他相關設備購買運動賽事或活動票券取得定票或取票憑證者儲三領銷有期圖形或跟或併加新台幣300萬元向罰金"},{"start":8630.922,"end":8660.083,"text":"主管機關為調查或取締前二項違規事實﹐得洽請警察機關配員協助﹐主管機關對於檢取查獲第二項﹐第三項規定之行為﹐除應對檢取人身份資料嚴守秘密外﹐並得准予獎勵﹐對於檢取人身份資料時保密﹐與送送程序異同前項主管機關受理檢取案件之管轄﹐處理期間保密﹐檢取人獎勵及其他應遵行事﹐向這辦法由主管機關定之﹐由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":8662.418,"end":8673.087,"text":"好 照審查會條文通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有沒有異議好 沒有異議請先讀經過二讀之條文"},{"start":8675.031,"end":8695.425,"text":"第24條 政府應致力於保障民眾觀賞運動賽事或活動之權益﹐確保運動賽事或活動票券正常流動﹐將公開販售之運動賽事或活動票券﹐以窗面票面金額或將該運動賽事或活動無票面金額票券定價販售者﹐"},{"start":8695.865,"end":8716.625,"text":"按票券章數由主管金管處每張票面金額或無票面金額票券區域對照所應販售票面金額之10倍至50倍罰還將全面或部分免費入場式、運動賽事或活動免費票券定價販售者按票券章數由主管金管處每張票券新台幣18,000元相罰還"},{"start":8718.607,"end":8742.135,"text":"以虛偽資料或其他不正方式﹐利用電腦或其他相關設備﹐購買運動賽事或活動票券﹐取得訂票或取票憑證者﹐處三點下有期徒刑﹐或看貨幣課金台幣300萬元下罰金主管機關為調查或取締前二項違規事實﹐得洽請警察機關派員協助主管機關對於檢舉查獲第二項﹐第三項規定之行為"},{"start":8743.295,"end":8767.681,"text":"除應對檢舉人身份資料嚴守祕密外﹐並得著於獎勵﹐對於檢舉人身份資料之保密﹐與訴訟程序一同﹐請向主管機關受理檢舉案檢舉管轄﹐處理期間保密﹐檢舉人獎勵及其他應遵行事上之辦法﹐由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢三讀條文已經宣讀完畢﹐請問委員會有沒有文書修正"},{"start":8769.389,"end":8775.971,"text":"沒有文書修正決議運動產業發展條例增訂第24條之一條文修正通過繼續處理審查會所做的附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":8787.773,"end":8812.611,"text":"通過附帶決議一項政府應致力於保障民眾觀賞運動賽事或活動之權益以確保運動賽事或活動票券正常流通將運動賽事或活動票券加計收取行為人自主辦單位取得運動賽事或活動票券而實際支出之合理手續費或郵寄等費用歸屬本條例規範之加價販售裁罰樣態宣讀完畢請問N會有沒有異議"},{"start":8817.95,"end":8826.323,"text":"好沒有異議那決定就照案通過本案完成立法程序後有委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘請吳委員私下發言"},{"start":8841.996,"end":8869.498,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁大家辛苦了運動是新興國力發展體育提振運動產業我們做最多也做最好過去8年政府對運動發展的政策不斷加深加廣加碼全民瘋體育提振了運動賽事的活絡而購票進場看球賽為運動員加油更成了臺灣人的日常尤其年輕世代更是支持運動賽事的主力消費者"},{"start":8870.359,"end":8894.384,"text":"但是黃牛無孔不入,擼起擼大胃,成為所有運動迷的心頭之恨向黃牛宣戰,要對症下藥今天《運動產業發展條例》24條之一完成修訂跟進文創法感謝國會有志一同,跨黨派支持,發揮意識的高效率運產條例的修法,讓打擊黃牛再下一程黃牛注意了"},{"start":8895.604,"end":8914.251,"text":"將運動賽事票券加價販售可裁罰票券金額或定價的10到50倍以不正方式掃票或是電腦大量掃票則除以3年以下的遊戲圖形新台幣300萬以下罰金讓黃牛罰得到也罰得痛事實證明修法確實有效"},{"start":8915.091,"end":8927.067,"text":"文創法的黃牛條款上路之後﹐文化部就收到超過1300件的檢舉案﹐各縣市都有開罰成立的案例﹐4個月的查緝開罰件數﹐高於過去10年的執行總數"},{"start":8931.232,"end":8949.662,"text":"所以查緝黃牛確實立法是有效的作為而查緝黃牛也需要配套例如建立檢舉制度給予吹哨者獎金推動鼓勵但不強制的實名制以及研議建立具有公信力的換票平台都是我們未來努力的目標"},{"start":8950.683,"end":8964.806,"text":"感謝所有同仁來團結屠牛未來如果能夠制定黃牛專法整合跨部會所有的政策工具來查緝黃牛我想我們的努力應當持續下去謝謝大家大家辛苦了好 謝謝吳委員報告委員會登記發言的委員已經發言完畢現在進行討論事項第三案"},{"start":8980.178,"end":9004.758,"text":"營養及健康飲食促進法草案．請宣讀審查報告本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會．分別於112年5月17日．112年4月6日舉行全體委員會議審查本案．會議分別由吳兆景委預請．邱兆景委員太委員擔任主席．邀請提案委員說明提案要旨．並請衛生福利部長薛瑞元．及相關人員練習說明並備諮詢"},{"start":9007.96,"end":9032.249,"text":"與會員與聽取說明集尋答後．進行逐條討論．完成本案審查．令通過附帶決議6項．原請決議並按理區審查報告提報院會討論本委員與院會進行二讀前．不需加入黨團先生．議會討論本案時．由邱召集委員太原補充說明宣讀完畢請召集委員、邱委員、太原補充說明好 沒有補充說明"},{"start":9033.064,"end":9055.069,"text":"貶案竟審查會決議不須再交與黨黨協商請問院會有沒有異議沒有異議貶案竟依審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論營養及健康飲食促進法草案請宣讀名稱營養及健康飲食促進法宣讀完畢照審查會名稱通過請先讀第一條請先讀第一張第一張總則宣讀完畢"},{"start":9062.649,"end":9076.911,"text":"趙審查會張銘通過 請先讀第一條第一條 為建構健康飲食支持環境提升人民營養及健康飲食真能 增進人民健康特殊利益本法 宣讀外表趙審查會條文通過 請先讀第二條"},{"start":9077.642,"end":9104.995,"text":"第二條本法用詞定義如下一、營養指人體利用食物中所含之營養成分進行新陳代謝調節生理機能及生成發育過程之一種生理狀態二、營養成分指食物中可作為人體新陳代謝所需熱量促進生長發育及調節生理機能之營養素包括糖類、脂質、蛋白質、維生素、礦物質及其他微量元素"},{"start":9105.735,"end":9126.153,"text":"三、營養不良,指不健康飲食所造成人體中之營養素缺乏﹐過多或不均衡,至體重過精或過重﹐肥胖、慢性病或其他健康問題之狀態四、健康飲食,指足以提供個人適當熱量及均衡營養﹐且以新鮮在地、多樣化之食材為原則之飲食"},{"start":9126.733,"end":9155.954,"text":"五、營養及飲食調查指以各種調查方法收集分析人民飲食變遷營養狀況及其他相關資料作為定定人民營養需求基準及相關政策之依據六、營養及飲食建議攝取基準指依據營養調查或相關研究國民健康政策、人民飲食習慣性別、年齡、體重及其他相關因素以科學實證方法所定一般人民飲食及營養素攝取量之基準"},{"start":9156.534,"end":9176.429,"text":"宣讀完畢照實在位條文通過請宣讀第三條第三條本法所限主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在主銷市為主銷市政府在縣市為縣市政府本法所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關主持者由各目的事業主管機關辦理宣讀完畢照實在位條文通過請宣讀第四條"},{"start":9177.298,"end":9200.038,"text":"第4條 中央主管機關整理相應營養及健康食促進事項一、政策與方案之規劃訂定及宣導二、直轄市縣市主管機關執行之助導及協調三、講座及輔導之規劃四、人員訓練之規劃及推動五、國際交流合作六、其他應由中央主管機關辦理之事項宣讀完畢造實召會條文通過 請先入第5條"},{"start":9200.919,"end":9229.028,"text":"第5條 指挾市縣市主管機關整理向內項列營養及健康時促進事項一、實施方案計劃之規劃訂定及執行二、講座與輔導計劃之訂定及執行三、人員訓練之訂定及執行四、教育宣導轉介服務與資源網絡連結之規劃及提供五、其他應用指挾市縣市主管機關辦理之事項宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第6條"},{"start":9230.424,"end":9242.511,"text":"第6條 直轄市縣市主管機關得指定營養相關專業單位或人員與社區協助辦理營養及健康飲食促進之相關工作 宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過 請宣讀第7條"},{"start":9244.622,"end":9265.867,"text":"第7條 中央主管機關應邀集民間團體﹐專家﹐學者﹐食品業者及農產業者代表﹐召開營養諮詢會﹐諮詢營養與健康飲食促進政策﹐調查研究及其他有關事項﹐其中任一性別委員之人數不得少於總數三分之一﹐中央主管機關應採行適當公民參與機制廣詢意見﹐納入營養諮詢會議討論宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過﹐請先入第8條"},{"start":9272.793,"end":9290.501,"text":"第8條 主管機關及各目的事業主管機關應逐年編列預算 辦理有關營養及健康食肆促進及衛教宣導工作 宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過 請先讀第二章第二章 確保飲食健康 宣讀完畢照審查會帳名通過 請先讀第9條"},{"start":9293.991,"end":9306.045,"text":"第9條 中央主管機關應定期辦理及發布營養調查研究及建置食品營養成分資料庫﹐並得委託有關機關購學校或營養健康相關專業團體為之宣讀完畢照審栽培條文通過請先讀第10條"},{"start":9316.007,"end":9339.417,"text":"第10條 中央主管機關應分別依性別、年齡、懷孕及生產等﹐擬定人民健康及飲食建議攝取基準﹐經諮詢營養諮詢會後公告之﹐其項基準至少每5年檢討修正一次﹐中央主管機關應依第一項之基準﹐並考量人民宗教信仰區域及文化之差異﹐提出飲食建議宣讀完畢照實範圍條文通過異議"},{"start":9343.513,"end":9354.352,"text":"委員吳亦群等委員林淑溫等分配提案第12條委員陳敬明等提案第10條委員陳培宇等提案第11條均不予採納請先讀第11條"},{"start":9357.045,"end":9375.654,"text":"議事一條政府機關構與訂定社會救助相關計劃及辦理補助時應將計劃及補助對象之營養問題納入考量改善營養不良俗致致體重過輕過重肥胖慢性病或其他健康問題及提升健康飲食獲取之可慶幸"},{"start":9376.454,"end":9403.129,"text":"政府機關構因鼓勵辦理食物及膚質法人﹐團體或民間機構與目擊運用食物及膚物資﹐或辦理其他救助計畫時﹐將受針對像是營養問題納入考量政府機關構得考量偏遠﹐原住民族地區及離島地區之需要﹐滴滴營養改善計畫或飲食供應之補助計畫宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員舒喬會等提案第13條"},{"start":9404.229,"end":9433.252,"text":"第14條均不予承納請先讀第12條第12條中央主管機關依第9條之營養調查研究結果發現人民缺乏特定營養素而有營養不良之餘時得提出營養強化建議鼓勵食品業者於食品中添加特定營養成分食品業者依前項建議於食品中添加特定營養成分應符合食品安全衛生管理法及其相關法規適規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":9433.925,"end":9454.375,"text":"照審查會條文通過請宣讀第三章第三章健康飲食支持環境宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過委員吳益勤等委員林淑溫等分別提案第15條臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第20條委員素喬惠等提案第16條委員邱泰文等提案第13條委員莊進成等提案第18條均不予採納請先讀第13條"},{"start":9464.417,"end":9490.624,"text":"第13條政府機關購於福島食品業者開發產制食品及自備飲食時應納入營養師考量生產以在地農產品為主原料之食品及有益於人民之健康飲食宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員蘇喬惠等提案第16條至第22條委員邱太元等提案第17條第18條均不予採納請先讀第14條"},{"start":9494.54,"end":9517.455,"text":"第14條 中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應推行並鼓勵營養及健康飲食教育﹐納入下列人員之在職訓練或繼續教育課程一、從事相關工作持醫事人員二、公共衛生師三、長期照顧服務人員四、通獄人員、早期療癒教保人員及早期療癒助理教保人員"},{"start":9518.335,"end":9521.579,"text":"5.健保服務人員及客戶照顧服務人員6."},{"start":9521.579,"end":9525.244,"text":"食品業者專門職業或技術證照人員7."},{"start":9525.244,"end":9530.811,"text":"其他經營中央主管機關公告職人員宣布完畢照審查會條文通過即先入第16條"},{"start":9532.028,"end":9550.659,"text":"第15條政府機關購、行政法人、公立各級、學校與幼兒園、軍隊、公營事業機構及政府捐助之財團法人﹐辦理之活動或會議、採購利民或其他物品及製作宣導品﹐應納入健康飲食之考量宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過﹐請先入第16條"},{"start":9551.67,"end":9573.78,"text":"第16條 主管機關得角力政府機關構、醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構、長期照顧服務機構、學校幼兒園托育機構、軍隊、凡人及團體建構健康飲食環境請向角力之對象條件、方式、申請程序、審查及其他相關事項指辦法由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過 請宣讀第10條"},{"start":9575.25,"end":9586.104,"text":"第17條父母監護人或其他實質照護兒童及少年之人應提供符合兒童及少年營養需求之飲食宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第18條"},{"start":9588.663,"end":9604.777,"text":"第18條 幼兒園及高級中等校學校公售飲品及點心應依幼兒教育及照顧法、學校衛生法及其相關法令之公售原則或範圍辦理宣讀完畢照此召會條文通過臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第19條委員蘇喬惠等提案第15條委員陳培宇等提案第14條均不予採納請先讀第4章"},{"start":9614.349,"end":9622.883,"text":"第4章營養及健康飲食教育宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過委員書條會等提案第24條第25條委員陳培宇等提案第21條均不予採納請先讀第19條"},{"start":9629.485,"end":9643.132,"text":"第19條政府機關構行政法人公立各級學校與幼兒園軍隊供應事業機構及政府捐助之財團法人因鼓勵員工接受營養及健康飲食教育宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第20條"},{"start":9645.287,"end":9666.467,"text":"第20條主管機關與各級目的事業主管機關應鼓勵政府機關構、醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構、長期照顧服務機構、學校幼兒園托育機構、軍隊、法人及團體﹐對其員工辦理營養及健康飲食教育﹐並得開放人民參與宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請申請第21條"},{"start":9668.291,"end":9692.492,"text":"第21條 主管機關應鼓勵醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構對其服務對象及其家屬、社區居民進行營養及健康飲食教育宣讀完畢照實他會條文通過委員吳益勤等委員林淑芬等分別提案第25條委員淳培宇等提案第28條均不予採納請先讀第22條"},{"start":9696.605,"end":9722,"text":"22.中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應將營養及健康飲食教育﹐列入下列政府機關構、學校幼兒園﹐民間機構或法人制輔導項目一、從事相關工作室醫事機構﹐二、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構﹐三、托育機構、早期療癒機構﹐安置及救養機構、矯正機關﹐與其他依法設立之收容、安置及救養機構或場所"},{"start":9724.163,"end":9728.556,"text":"4.各級學校及幼兒園 宣讀MB照審查為條文通過 請先讀第23條"},{"start":9731.54,"end":9757.393,"text":"23.任何人不得利用廣告或其他方法﹐傳播不實質、營養及健康飲食消息﹐且向所身利用廣告或其他方法傳播﹐至利用電視、廣播、影片、幻燈片﹐報紙、雜誌、傳單、海報﹐招牌、牌坊、電腦﹐電話、傳真、電子視訊﹐電子語音、網際網路或其他方法﹐使不特定多數人窒息其宣傳內容者"},{"start":9757.987,"end":9786.053,"text":"宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請先讀第5章第5章罰則宣讀完畢照審查會章文通過請先讀第24條第24條違反截條第一項規定傳播不實質營養或健康食消息有影響人民健康之餘者直轄市縣市主管機關應令其限期改正藉其為改正者處新台幣3萬元以上30萬元下罰還並得按次處罰至改正為止宣讀完畢"},{"start":9786.792,"end":9806.729,"text":"照審查會條文通過委員劉建國等委員林維周等委員楊瓊穎等分別提案第24條委員吳益勤等委員林淑芬等分別提案第28條台灣民眾黨黨團提議提案第27條委員邱太元等提案第22條"},{"start":9807.95,"end":9835.513,"text":"委員陳敬明等提案第25條委員蘇巧慧等提案第30條委員劉建國等委員林維作等分別提案第25條委員陳敬明等提案第26條今不宜採納請先讀第6章第6章負責宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過請先讀第25條第25條本法事行細則由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":9837.017,"end":9846.967,"text":"照審查會條文通過請先讀第26條第26條本法自公布日施行宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過全案禁錮二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有沒有異議好沒有異議那請先讀禁錮二讀之條文"},{"start":9856.777,"end":9869.945,"text":"《營養及健康飲食促進法》第一章 總則第一條為建構健康飲食支持環境提升人民營養及健康飲食職能增進人民健康特制定本法"},{"start":9872.028,"end":9891.167,"text":"第二條本法用詞定義如下一、營養指人體利用食物中所含之營養成分進行新陳代謝調節生理機能及生長發育過程之一種生理狀態二、營養成分指食物中可作為人體新陳代謝所需熱量"},{"start":9891.667,"end":9908.578,"text":"促進生長、發育及調節生理機能之營養素包括糖類、脂質、蛋白質、維生素、礦物質及其他微量元素3、營養不良指不健康飲食所造成人體中之營養素缺乏、過多或不均衡指體重"},{"start":9911.32,"end":9923.769,"text":"1、過輕或過重、肥胖、慢性病或其他健康問題之狀態2、健康飲食只足以提供個人適當熱量及均衡營養且以新鮮在地多樣化之食材為原則之飲食"},{"start":9924.75,"end":9941.172,"text":"五、營養及飲食調查指以各種調查方法搜集、分析人民飲食變遷、營養狀況及其他相關資料作為訂定人民營養需求基準及相關政策之依據六、營養及飲食建議順序基準"},{"start":9942.213,"end":9969.85,"text":"只依據營養調查或相關研究﹐國民健康政策﹐人民飲食習慣﹐性別﹐年齡﹐體重及其他相關因素﹐以科學執政方法所定﹐一般人民飲食及營養素攝取量之基準第三條本法所審主管機關在中央委衛生福利部﹐在執行室為執行室政府﹐在縣市為縣市政府本法所定事項﹐涉及各目的事業主管機關執行者﹐由各目的事業主管機關辦理"},{"start":9971.894,"end":9993.891,"text":"第4條 中央主管機關 掌理 下令營養及健康食促進事項一、政策與方案之規劃訂定及宣導二、直轄市縣市主管機關執行之督導及協調三、講助及輔導之規劃四、人員訓練之規劃及推動五、國際交流合作六、其他應由中央主管機關辦理之事項"},{"start":9996.061,"end":10020.612,"text":"第5條指橋市縣市主管機關整理、狹內下列營養及健康飲食促進事項一、實施方案計畫之規劃訂定及執行二、講助與輔導計畫之訂定及執行三、人員訓練之訂定及執行四、教育宣導轉介服務與資源網絡連結之規劃及提供五、其他應由指橋市縣市主管機關辦理之事項"},{"start":10025.108,"end":10036.398,"text":"6.直轄市縣市主管機關﹐得指定營養相關專業單位或人員﹐與社區協助管理營養及健康飲食促進之相關工作7."},{"start":10036.398,"end":10049.129,"text":"中央主管機關應邀請民間團體﹐專家、學者、食品業者及農產業者代表﹐召開營養諮詢會﹐諮詢營養及健康飲食促進政策﹐調查研究及其他有關事項﹐"},{"start":10049.87,"end":10079.338,"text":"其中任一性別委員之人數不得少於總數三分之一中央主管機關應採行適當公民參與機制 廣詢意見納入營養諮詢會議討論第8條主管機關及各目的事業主管機關應逐年編列預算辦理有關營養及健康飲食之促進及衛教宣導工作第二章確保健康飲食"},{"start":10081.178,"end":10106.146,"text":"第9條 中央主管機關應定其辦理及發布營養調查研究及建置食品營養成分資料庫﹐並等委託有關機關構、學校或營養健康相關專業團體為之第10條 中央主管機關應分別依性別、年齡、懷孕及生產等﹐擬定人民營養及飲食建議攝取基準﹐經諮詢營養諮詢會後公告之"},{"start":10110.805,"end":10120.432,"text":"前項基準至少每5年檢討一次中央主管機關應依第一項之基準並考量人民宗教信仰區域及文化之差異提出飲食建議"},{"start":10123.123,"end":10140.615,"text":"第11條政府機關構於訂定社會救助相關計劃及辦理補助時應將計劃及補助對象之營養問題納入考量改善營養不良所致之體重過輕過重肥胖慢性病或其他健康問題及提升健康飲食獲取之可敬性"},{"start":10141.235,"end":10161.931,"text":"政府機關構應鼓勵辦理食物給付之法人、團體或民間機構於募集運用食物給付物資或辦理其他救助計畫時將受贈對象之營養問題納入考量政府機關構得考量偏遠原住民族地區及離島地區之需要訂定營養改善計畫或飲食供應之補助計畫"},{"start":10164.673,"end":10188.606,"text":"第12條中央主管機關一第9條是營養調查研究結果發現人民缺乏特定營養素而有營養不良之餘時得提出營養強化建議鼓勵食品業者於食品中添加特定營養成分食品業者依前項建議於食品中添加特定營養成分應符合食品安全衛生管理法及其相關法規之規定"},{"start":10191.874,"end":10210.923,"text":"第3章 健康飲食支持環境第13條 政府儘管購與輔導食品業者開發產制食品及自備飲食時﹐應納入營養正好量﹐生產以在地農產品為主原料之食品﹐及有益於人民之健康飲食"},{"start":10213.157,"end":10240.095,"text":"第14條中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應推行並鼓勵營養及健康飲食教育納入下列人員之在職訓練或繼續教育課程一、從事相關工作之醫事人員二、公共衛生師三、長期照顧服務人員四、通獄人員、早期療癒教保人員及早期療癒助理教保人員五、教保服務人員及課後照顧服務人員六、食品業者專門職業或技術證照人員"},{"start":10243.457,"end":10264.247,"text":"其其他經中央主管機關公共之人員第15條政府機關購行政法人公立各級學校與幼兒園軍隊公營事業機構及政府捐助之產權法人辦理之活動或會議採購利民或其他物品及製作宣導品應納入健康飲食之考量"},{"start":10266.277,"end":10286.275,"text":"第16條 主管機關得獎勵政府機關構﹐醫療機構﹐護理機構﹐社會福利機構﹐長期照顧服務機構﹐學校幼兒園托育機構﹐軍隊法人及團體﹐建構健康飲食環境前項獎勵之對象﹐條件方式﹐申請程序﹐審查及其他相關事項之本﹐法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":10287.916,"end":10315.698,"text":"第17條父母接戶人或其他實際照顧兒童及少年之人應提供符合兒童及少年營養需求之飲食第18條幼兒園及高級中等下學校供受飲品及點心應依幼兒教育及照顧法學校衛生法及其相關法令之供受原則或範圍辦理第4章營養及健康飲食教育"},{"start":10318.277,"end":10329.802,"text":"第19條政府機關構行政法人公立各級學校與幼兒園軍隊公營事業機構及政府捐助資產權法人應鼓勵員工接受營養及健康飲食教育"},{"start":10331.96,"end":10341.211,"text":"第20條主管機關與各級目的事業主管機關應鼓勵政府機關構、醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構、長期照顧服務機構、學校幼兒園托育機構、軍隊旁人及團體對其員工辦理營養及健康飲食教育,並得開放人民參與"},{"start":10352.352,"end":10365.435,"text":"第21條主管機關應鼓勵醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構﹐對其服務對象及其家屬、社區居民進行營養及健康飲食教育"},{"start":10367.54,"end":10394.971,"text":"第22條中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應將營養及健康飲食教育列入下列政府機關構學校幼兒園民間機構或法人之輔導項目一、從事相關工作之醫事機構二、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構三、托育機構、早期療癒機構安置及教養機構、矯正機關與其他依法設立之收容安置及救養機構或場所"},{"start":10396.532,"end":10397.839,"text":"是各級學校及幼兒園"},{"start":10402.535,"end":10428.216,"text":"23.任何人不能利用廣告或其他方法﹐傳播不實質、營養及健康飲食消息﹐其向所伸利用廣告或其他方法傳播﹐只利用電視、廣播、影片、幻燈片﹐報紙、雜誌、傳單、海報﹐招牌、牌坊、電腦、電話傳真﹐電子視訊、電子語音﹐網際網路或其他方法﹐使不特定多數人知悉其宣導內容者"},{"start":10431.075,"end":10450.808,"text":"第5章 法則 第24條違反前條第一項規定傳播或實施營養或健康飲食消息﹐有影響人民健康治癒者﹐直轄市縣市主管機關應令其限期改正﹐藉其為改正者﹐處新台幣3萬元上30萬元下滑還﹐並得按次處罰至改正為止"},{"start":10453.188,"end":10479.677,"text":"第6章負責第25條本法施行卸財由中央主管機關定制第26條本法自公佈日施行宣讀完畢三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有沒有文書修正沒有文書修正那決議營養及"},{"start":10481.963,"end":10493.736,"text":"《健康飲食促進法》自定通過繼續處理審查會所作的附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":10496.906,"end":10524.825,"text":"通過附帶決議六項一、本法通過後行政機關應積極提供相關計畫具體鼓勵基層醫療診所參與民眾的營養及健康飲食教育依符合羅馬營養宣言中的建議並落實全能醫療照顧的精神二、為應應全球氣候變遷政府機關鼓勵相關業者善盡共同保護地球環境之責任政府機關構議本法第12條輔導食品"},{"start":10527.955,"end":10556.692,"text":"餐飲業者開發產製食品及自備飲食時應考量以符合環境永續與動物福利有益於人民之健康飲食三、中央主管機關依本法第9條提出飲食建議時應考量飲食對環境影響結合均衡健康飲食之概念以其推廣全民對友善環境飲食之共識以達環境永續之目的"},{"start":10557.452,"end":10579.377,"text":"四、國人多有外食之習慣．而部分外食食物精緻及烹調方式．亦攝取過多熱量．皆為肥胖防治之不利因素．建請主管機關鼓勵餐飲業者．主動標示各類餐飲之營養成分．以作為消費者挑選健康餐飲之參考五、"},{"start":10580.057,"end":10593.689,"text":"要求主管機關與各目的事業主管機關與本法施行後持續鼓勵、輔導、提供教育資源及相關規劃以協助增進與建構健康支持性環境6"},{"start":10596.161,"end":10620.475,"text":"要求中央主管機關依《營養及健康飲食促進法》第七條第一項要及民間團體或依同條第二項採行適當公民參與及致廣詢意見時應要及兒少代表或徵詢兒少代表之意見宣讀完畢請問會有沒有異議好 沒有異議 那決定就照案通過"},{"start":10623.769,"end":10644.794,"text":"報告委員會討論事項第三案編法條次及條文所引用之條次授權議事延年處理編案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘請吳委員疫情發言"},{"start":10655.296,"end":10681.652,"text":"首先謝謝我們游院長能夠在今天能夠讓營養及健康營養促進法能夠三讀通過這是營養界已經期待40年倡議的40年的一個法今天能夠三讀通過真的非常的高興那也期望透過這次立法能夠建構健康飲食的支持環境來提升人民這個營養及健康飲食的智能"},{"start":10682.092,"end":10709.941,"text":"以及增進我們人民的健康那依據國建署的2017年到2020年的一個國民營養健康調查顯示20歲到64歲的民眾4個人裡面就有一個罹患代謝症候群代謝症候群被認為是以腦血管還有心臟病高血壓等慢性病的病發密切相關因此可以透過強化營養的觀念建構"},{"start":10710.701,"end":10712.242,"text":"本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會審查報告"},{"start":10735.495,"end":10754.287,"text":"因逐年編列預算 辦理有關營養及健康促進的一個還有衛教的一個工作第三個是衛福部過去常規執行的營養調查研究及建置食品的營養成分的資料庫也因明文入法那也希望能夠要求它定期發布"},{"start":10755.806,"end":10779.493,"text":"最後我要特別謝謝這個邱太元召委的排審能夠讓這一次這個期待已久的法案能夠通過那我要特別謝謝這兩屆以來持續提供我建議的營養師公會全聯會以及黃清真教授以及潘文凡教授能夠提供協助那也盼立法之後我們公司協力讓我們共同逐步建立更好的營養環境"},{"start":10783.36,"end":10799.49,"text":"好 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跟委員報告在主辦國它在會場上面它分為藍區跟綠區最主要藍區是"},{"start":95.993,"end":110.927,"text":"需要有這個大費許可的報名的證件才能進去那立區它通常就會開放給沒有持有這個報名證件但是可以當地這個去登記啦或者是這樣子一個方式去進去參觀"},{"start":112.793,"end":130.93,"text":"好 那個署長你接下來可不可以回答一下為什麼因為我剛剛有提到但是你在附送回答的時候沒有特別再提因為我剛剛有強調就是說綠區在官方文宣上就是有要開放給原住民團體"},{"start":132.772,"end":144.362,"text":"因為我是原住民的立法委員所以我會特別關注這個部分那我想請教署長你可不可以回答就是以你的理解為什麼要特別針對原住民團體來開放呢"},{"start":147.06,"end":159.588,"text":"這個部分的話我沒有特別去了解說但是因為在藍區事實上也有周邊會議我沒有要關心藍區的部分我在這邊要跟你討論綠區特別開放給原住民團體這個部分"},{"start":162.99,"end":191,"text":"我想因為其實氣候公約他非常重視就是跟原住民還有跟這個相關的團體的一些對話跟溝通所以主辦國他或許有這個規劃但這個部分確實我沒有因為我今年沒有到現場去參加我想這個有沒有到現場應該是沒有關係那我覺得其實在整個氣候變遷下是這樣子如果署長不清楚也沒關係"},{"start":192.02,"end":211.906,"text":"那我今天把這樣的觀念特別在這邊跟署長讓署長了解一下那也在座的各位也要特別的注意一下就是一個很重要的原因在氣候變遷下最先衝擊的族群任何國家的政府其實都很清楚的就是"},{"start":212.626,"end":239.301,"text":"大自然環境最密切的族群其實就是原住民族我們因為在這個環境迫害之下整個原住民族的生存權、發展權甚至這個土地自然資源的權利都是被嚴重傷害的所以這個部分特別在這邊提出來讓署長瞭解因為"},{"start":240.495,"end":263.169,"text":"您坐在一個非常重要的位置就是氣候變遷署你是署長所以這一點我希望從現在開始可以特別注意因為未來這個部分到時候我想時間再久一點你會更清楚知道原住民在這整個氣候變遷的一個扮演的角色"},{"start":263.749,"end":264.251,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":272.368,"end":295.138,"text":"在這個1992年的巴西里約召開的這個里約環境跟發展宣言宣言的部分全部27項有規範各國政府環境權利與責任的基本原則其中的第22項揭示了原住民族的傳統習慣與智慧在環境的永續發展上扮演關鍵的角色因此在各國的政府"},{"start":295.558,"end":317.434,"text":"都是要肯定並且支持援助民族參與氣候變遷衝擊一下環境的保護、管理跟監測我想這個概念很重要那身為氣候變遷署的署長要請您特別了解這個概念所以我接下來我要請問署長在未來"},{"start":318.635,"end":339.04,"text":"在您帶領的這個氣候變遷署各項措施的計畫是不是應該根據地球憲章的基本原則鼓勵並支持援助民族運用我們的智慧與生活習慣來協助你們落實淨零排碳的工作請問署長你支不支持這樣子的一個方向是完全支持"},{"start":339.42,"end":354.489,"text":"好 謝謝署長那我接下來要請教就是說那我可不可以請署長你們的這個氣候變遷署可以進一步的加以規劃那針對我剛剛提的這些加以規劃可以嗎"},{"start":355.189,"end":365.317,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在今年立法院三讀通過氣候變遷因應法也很清楚的把原住民就是我們在擬定氣候變遷各項政策的時候必須要將原住民的相關的跟氣候變遷不管是在減緩跟調適都要納入好那所以你們開始規劃了嗎我們現在在進行的包括就是國家氣候變遷行動綱領"},{"start":379.168,"end":394.582,"text":"還有接下來再進行調試計畫都會進行都會納入對都會納入那請問就是你有很你有很認真的把這個原住民族的這個部分你怎麼樣已經加入了這樣子的規劃了嗎"},{"start":396.643,"end":418.908,"text":"這個會隨著每一項計畫在實施就是規劃跟提出的期程的時候那我們會開始包括跟原住民主管機關還有相關的團體那包括這個最重要就是我們立法院相關的委員這邊我們都會開始來進行討論因為我也沒有接到你們任何的邀約所以看起來是還沒有開始"},{"start":420.462,"end":445.727,"text":"對 就跟委員報告沒有關係那我剛剛講這個規劃你需要多少時間來規劃我們現在因為正在規劃是下一期的國家氣候變遷的就是階段管制目標還有這個行政計畫這個部分我們會把它納入那另外的話就是在進行這個氣候變遷調適的相關的作業這個是明年會開始啟動那這部分我們也會進行"},{"start":446.707,"end":460.658,"text":"明年開始啟動那等一下那所以我再問你你還是沒有回答我問題你需要多少時間來規劃好原住民相關的這個特別是原住民相關的這個部分你需要多少時間規劃那跟我們報告我們在至少三個月內我們先就這些計劃跟擬定的時候那需要進行跟這個溝通的一些原則我們先請問你這三個月要跟誰溝通我們先跟這個先擬法我們先盤點"},{"start":475.649,"end":478.081,"text":"依照《氣候變遷因應法》需要進行推動我剛剛說明的"},{"start":480.396,"end":508.197,"text":"這些方案、計畫或者是措施先做一個盤點然後接下來就是需要跟原住民相關團體的這個進行跟進行方式我們來進行討論那剛剛你有特別點名到就是要跟各位原住民的這個立法委員來溝通那我也想要請教你是要跟這一屆的立委溝通還是跟下一屆的原住民立委溝通我跟委員報告我們現在是三個月我們先進行要先盤點有哪一些事項"},{"start":509.057,"end":535.354,"text":"有一些方案措施那需要來提的我們先三個月內先盤點出來那接下來才進一步去提說需要溝通的對象那所以所以你後面才要盤點溝通的對象所以你又說你要先跟原住民的立法委員溝通我真的是有點聽不太懂就是說你的意思是其實剩下這個時間你也沒有要跟我們溝通的意思"},{"start":536.174,"end":560.322,"text":"我想這個都是持續都會再溝通那我們現在因為剛剛委員關心我們氣候法裡面因為會包括的就是減緩跟調適的這些方案跟計劃那我們先盤點出來有哪一些到底接下來有哪一些所以你說三個月就是很明顯其實這一屆的原住民立委你是根本不需要溝通的因為我們的任期就到1月"},{"start":562.603,"end":581.066,"text":"還沒有你的三個月我們裡面的成員可能不一定是一樣但是我很清楚告訴你我會繼續在這邊其實我們在這段期間內也是一直有跟委員包括我們在進行氣候法的修法當時的在訂定的時候也都持續有在做溝通"},{"start":582.574,"end":606.643,"text":"我是沒有太強烈的感覺就是因為我很擔心你溝通的對象不對了啦好那至少我剛剛點出了原住民的這一塊看起來署長從第一個回答並沒有很有概念所以我在這邊我鼓勵你好好去研究一下好那再不然"},{"start":607.748,"end":636.229,"text":"我們即便現在在忙選舉但是我想我們的任期在這邊這個坐一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛辦公室還是都有在運作啊是我們會積極的對啊你總不會等說要確認我在這個我們1月13號確定我有選上之後才要趕快來溝通才要開始慢慢規劃吧是跟我們這段期間其實一直都有跟各個委員在做溝通是有嗎"},{"start":638.649,"end":661.499,"text":"我們辦公室有嗎這個我們會改善有嗎對啊你不要亂講話啊就是各個委員我們辦公室就是沒有所以我今天特別提出來所以要請署長特別注意嘛對啊那你要三個月我很擔心啊那你如果要溝通其實你從現在就可以常常來溝通啊我吧台都開著是謝謝"},{"start":662.379,"end":683.812,"text":"對啊所以我最後再請教一下世界銀行去年指出全球已經有68個國家或區域區域已經有這個碳定價了那今年會有多少國家有定價這個都是要依照那個世界銀行跟各國去做的這個趨勢那在今年初的報告是73個國家或地區"},{"start":685.509,"end":707.423,"text":"今年會有73個國家跟地區我想是這樣我們台灣的這個碳交易平台的相關法則不知道現在是進度怎麼樣那是不是有如你們的預期那我比較好奇的就是說你什麼時候來完成訂定這樣子"},{"start":708.824,"end":724.309,"text":"我們現在的時程是預計就是在最近會先把這個碳費徵收的相關的規劃來做一個預告那明年的話明年1月會開始就是針對費率的部分會進行這個由費率審議會來做討論"},{"start":726.482,"end":751.145,"text":"那所以什麼時候完成你有預估的時間嗎我們現在很清楚就是明年的碳排放都會被計到這個碳費徵收的範圍也就是說明年開始這個碳費徵收就會上路那你打算一頓大概訂多少錢這個要由明年的碳費的費率審議會來做討論跟決定好所以那個我剛剛前面問的就是說你預估何時完成訂定目前你們是"},{"start":752.165,"end":777.687,"text":"沒有竊竊預期的時間會在明年的第一季把包括這是碳費的徵收辦法還有費率審議會這個這個費率的部分來做明年第一季大概就會做確定好那這樣子我我只是提醒我們這個各國的經驗其實看起來應該都是越早實施好那整個挑戰就會越小所以我在這邊特別提醒署長好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":784.667,"end":785.282,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3c100a9878a076fcca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322165cd330bf6083615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"10:55:45 - 11:11:10","影片長度":"00:15:25","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":925,"end_time":"2023-12-14T11:11:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:55:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（10時55分）謝謝，有請部長及外交部李次長。"],["主席：請部長及次長。"],["薛部長富盛：吳召委好。"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝兩位。剛剛聽到薛部長的報告是以專業、務實及有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國，可是我個人感覺是一個mix picture，然後我覺得是見仁見智，譬如這七年臺灣的碳使用率增加，天然氣也是增加，當然以整個經濟的成長或是從百分比來看的話，不同角度來看這個東西就會有不同的解答。","其實我知道這次外交部有安排一些會議，這裡有一些照片是外交部及立法院安排的，有一些是我私人的會議，譬如在右上方這位Michael Sheren，就是我在FB上面有PO的綠色金融大師，我本來是想在藍區跟他見面，可是因為臨時我們四位立法委員全部都沒辦法進去，所以我就在外面這個公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡，然後把我本來想在藍區跟他討論的事情變成在外面討論。他之前在聯合國開發計畫署（UNDP）擔任永續金融中心的高級顧問，在2016年到2019年期間，他也擔任G20永續金融研究小組的主席，同時他在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國證交所發行他們第一個Green Bond，所以他的經驗非常豐富，他有很多Public-Private Partnership的經驗。","接下來我有一個影片要快速跟大家分享一下。","（播放影片）"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝。所以我想展示的是，其實臺灣在外交困境當中是非常艱難的，事實上我有被邀請參加兩場Parliamentary Pavilion，就是週一上午的時候跟週二下午的時候，我都有作為與談人，可是最後因為沒有拿到藍區的證件，我也沒有辦法進去，相當地可惜。","之後星期四的時候，我們去COP，但是星期四COP剛好休會，所以我就自己跨了邊界去了阿布達比。我也想跟兩位分享，其實我是被邀請去做與談人，這次有辦法進去，因為我是用民間的名義進去的，這是國際智庫Milken研究院，中間這位是Michael Milken本人，這是第5屆中東及非洲國家召開峰會，關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型，Milken專注在4個主軸：教育、健康、新創企業（entrepreneurship）還有金融的部分。","同時，我要提到，其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候也發現到，阿布達比現在有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積，它是跟中國合作的，這也代表石油國家可以重新再做能源轉型，它本身就有油，同時空間大、太陽多、風也多，要做轉型是非常有利基點的。這也呼應了我覺得臺灣應該要勇敢面對，如果我們真的要變成能源堅韌國家的話，我們其實選擇是不多的，因為我們是一個小島國，也沒有很多的天然資源，不像中東。這次我們私下跟一些歐洲國家的議員交流，像盧森堡，他們覺得他們不支持核能，可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能，對不對？這些國家雖然不支持核能、不簽署這些合約，不代表他們沒有在用核能的電。可是臺灣就是一個鎖國，我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境？我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話，是不務實的。","再來，我想要分享的是我們實際上面對外交的困境。這個是我從CSIS智庫2020年報告後面的截圖，上面列出臺灣撤出聯合國之後現在所有的observing或是full member的membership，裡頭重點也有講到ADB，就是中間第二排的下面，到時候可以提供你們參考。","對我而言，我覺得我們要更務實地面對臺灣的外交困境。世界這麼大，我們常常講我們有13個邦交國，可是事實上這13個邦交國所占的地面面積是全球的0.1%，以全球的國家人口來看，這250萬人是全世界的0.3%人口面積而已，所以臺灣在這個情況之下，我們要站在什麼樣的立場？不只是用政府機關，像這次我們4位委員都沒有辦法進入藍區的場……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長，你也沒辦法進去，對不對？我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的membership？為什麼我突然講到Asian Development Bank，就是亞洲開發銀行呢？接下來我想要分享，我個人的看法是，如果今天臺灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話，我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌，然後我們所有官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺，才能讓我們跟國際接軌，同時能淨零碳排、淨零轉型，我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化。你可以看到，這次像COP有loss and damage fund，這個loss and damage fund裡頭對我而言，其實叫做氣候金融的二軌外交。譬如像氣候金融投資、主權基金等等，這些都是可以互相彼此投資的。譬如這次我有跟我們的邦交國諾魯做交流，對不對？諾魯這個國家還比帛琉更小，我問他們現在淨零的方向是如何、能源用得怎麼樣，他們說他們是用柴油（diesel）為主，島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板，馬上50%就可以走Go Clean。OK！我說：「請問一下你的solar panel誰幫你裝？」他說中國幫他裝的，然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭，是中國幫他做的；那我說：「你不是我們臺灣的邦交國嗎？你是邦交國，為什麼這個案子是給中國做？」他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的。所以我的意思就是說其實透過ADB（亞洲開發銀行），我們臺灣是full membership，我們在這一部分打輸的話，我覺得是相當可惜的。而且我要提到，您看外交部現在這個報告上有講到：有充分發揮外交的效益。我會覺得，也提供你們參考，很多國家像澳洲、西班牙、義大利跟加拿大，他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的，它的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade，我真的覺得這是個非常重要的議題，可以呼應我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰？這樣子的話才不會有像我們的邦交國諾魯這個案子，現在我們有ADB的full membership，反而被中國把這個案子簽走。"],["李次長淳：委員，可以讓我簡單回答一下嗎？ADB的案子是透過招標、有廠商，所以是中國廠商得標，不是中國去協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，我知道。"],["李次長淳：中國廠商為什麼會得標？事實上這邊也講到CABEI，其實中國廠商在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標，它背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼，所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改，只是跟委員補充，臺灣當然會非常積極的運用ADB，我們是以一個full membership的身分來充分發揮，我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ADB的標案，只是在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面，最終是中國的企業得標，ADB是甲方，它來招標，得標的企業是中國，不是中國在協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：我現在只是跟外交部及我們行政單位講，要作戰的時候，尤其我們這麼多委員出現，應該是要走大門、走正路的，OK！我知道我們臺灣的外交處境是非常有困境的，這次我們這樣子去……"],["李次長淳：委員，我們都希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路。"],["吳委員欣盈：我覺得我很對不起納稅人，我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應，如果真的要做立院外交的話，我們等立法院院長請這些國際人員來就好了，舉例來講，我遇到好幾個這些跟我們吃早飯的人，他們的牌子上都寫「Party Overflow」，那什麼意思？Party不是開Party的Party，Party是一個團體的意思。那些委員告訴我「Party Overflow」是說不能發言的委員才在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯……"],["李次長淳：報告委員，這個情況在COP28以前一直存在，我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力。這次有一些特殊狀況，我相信委員也很清楚。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，所以我的意思是說剛剛那些組織有full membership，我們應該積極的把相關的窗口，不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的，對剛剛那些相關有full member的組織能夠接上對口來發揮真正的功能，對不對？"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後我們比較不是正式會員的一些組織，就要走正的路，像這次這些NPO全部都是先認同一個中國的，對不對？我們用這些證件進去的話，我們也認同一個中國嗎？"],["李次長淳：委員，我們也非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交上來協助一起推動，我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路，但是對於國際情勢，我們也希望大家一起來配合。"],["吳委員欣盈：當時我在現場的時候，我們要拿之前你們給我們的證件進去的時候，當場就有聯合國的人在現場跟我講，我聽到啦！他就跟你們講說：「You know you betrayed my trust. This is not how was supposed to be. You shouldn't be here」就是你們不應該在這邊。"],["李次長淳：委員也很清楚，您出發前我們有跟您溝通兩次，今年情況比較特殊一點，我相信您也知道特殊的地方在什麼地方。"],["吳委員欣盈：沒有什麼特殊的地方……"],["李次長淳：所以我們大家要一起努力。"],["吳委員欣盈：你們照的方式就是，你們要的話，就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流……"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：否則你會讓所有想幫助我們的人都很難做事情，謝謝你。"],["李次長淳：沒錯。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後，最後，不好意思，我要講最後一頁，就是關於環境部的部分，我之前跟部長追過，就是環境部的十年碳定價路徑圖，因為其實我之前也多次呼籲有關碳費、碳稅、碳抵換交易、碳交換的平臺這四種到底要怎麼樣陸續有配套措施？因為這不只是對產業，還有臺灣碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的，因為很多產業和業界都不瞭解碳權到底要不要買，然後要買多少，未來這個東西能不能成為金融商品，有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制存在。產業轉型需要很多年的時間，不能一次馬上到位，如果整個架構沒有提出來的話，產業很難做一些中長期的規劃，所以我想瞭解你們什麼時候可以提出十年路徑圖？上次我跟部長詢問過，看看次長今天有什麼樣的想法，可以給我承諾嗎？什麼時候可以做出來？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，這個部分之前也有委員提到，我們應該可以在3個月內，因為最主要還是要看政府這一端要做的中長期規劃，目前是先以碳價，也就是收碳費為主，我們會依委員的指示在3個月內確實……"],["吳委員欣盈：你的意思是3個月只能做碳費……"],["施次長文真：沒有，3個月內我們會把十年整體的路徑圖提出來跟委員做報告。"],["吳委員欣盈：OK！只要有時間出來，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：不好意思！我釐清一下，薛部長離席的原因是因為他要去做預算討論協商，剛剛是由施次長來代理質詢。","請陳委員瑩發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.957218750000003,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.066593750000003,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.28909375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.81596875,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.04221875,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.182218750000004,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.742843750000006,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.07159375,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.28971875,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.85409375,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.99034375000001,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.57221875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.47909375,"end":165.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.22409375,"end":170.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.63284375,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.72096875,"end":175.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":199.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.78034375000001,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.62721875000003,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.85409375,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.76221875000002,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.12471875000003,"end":237.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.10034375000004,"end":261.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.64409375,"end":266.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.56159375000004,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.56409375000004,"end":332.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.11346875000004,"end":360.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.83534375000005,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.33721875000003,"end":389.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.02909375,"end":417.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.53534375000004,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.46721875000003,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.39971875000003,"end":475.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.55159375000005,"end":475.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.56846875,"end":475.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.50284375,"end":503.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.17596875000004,"end":525.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.23159375,"end":535.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.31846875,"end":561.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.79971875,"end":574.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.2703437499999,"end":635.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.71471875,"end":593.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.8728437500001,"end":643.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.4834687499999,"end":641.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.5378437500001,"end":681.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.58846875,"end":645.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEA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picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那"},{"start":49.778,"end":68.622,"text":"自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說"},{"start":75.134,"end":103.098,"text":"在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個"},{"start":103.778,"end":123.635,"text":"公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席"},{"start":127.732,"end":147.777,"text":"同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些Private Public Partnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下"},{"start":156.493,"end":182.331,"text":"一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽"},{"start":198.038,"end":201.541,"text":"這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP"},{"start":205.009,"end":230.658,"text":"今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpha Ring它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是"},{"start":235.079,"end":257.224,"text":"現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享"},{"start":260.206,"end":275.679,"text":"所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion"},{"start":276.71,"end":292.528,"text":"上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會"},{"start":293.289,"end":313.427,"text":"所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人"},{"start":316.09,"end":327.06,"text":"第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融"},{"start":336.759,"end":356.1,"text":"同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型"},{"start":358.522,"end":378.777,"text":"同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國"},{"start":379.758,"end":403.706,"text":"然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電"},{"start":404.246,"end":420.783,"text":"可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William"},{"start":421.776,"end":436.156,"text":"就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的"},{"start":436.496,"end":441.717,"text":"全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作"},{"start":462.503,"end":489.725,"text":"國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說"},{"start":490.546,"end":507.004,"text":"我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型"},{"start":507.885,"end":534.087,"text":"我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那"},{"start":536.937,"end":557.566,"text":"比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個"},{"start":564.829,"end":579.697,"text":"你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的"},{"start":581.138,"end":603.175,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是full membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考"},{"start":604.036,"end":624.17,"text":"向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯"},{"start":625.811,"end":628.693,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":644.825,"end":659.097,"text":"中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改"},{"start":659.797,"end":681.339,"text":"只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業"},{"start":682.981,"end":696.658,"text":"跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去"},{"start":698.76,"end":719.703,"text":"我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到Party Overflow這是什麼意思"},{"start":720.123,"end":739.332,"text":"PARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些"},{"start":747.996,"end":770.98,"text":"全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路"},{"start":771.44,"end":778.067,"text":"當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here"},{"start":790.948,"end":810.436,"text":"委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你"},{"start":811.716,"end":815.898,"text":"然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖"},{"start":830.103,"end":841.814,"text":"因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個"},{"start":846.378,"end":866.742,"text":"碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位"},{"start":867.102,"end":881.251,"text":"那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個"},{"start":892.58,"end":916.799,"text":"三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝"},{"start":920.722,"end":921.95,"text":"謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員"}]}},{"id":"149029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c38970a51ebf59a7c3a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322ee73133325f985115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張育美","委員發言時間":"10:45:31 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28在本月12日落幕，對不對？本次會議六大宣言中，健康議題就占了2項，包括氣候與健康宣言，還有氣候健康資金，象徵著健康在氣候變遷的討論中，從過去的配角，躍升為氣候行動的核心，所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手，建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統，醫療韌性是什麼呢？就是要建立高度醫療韌性的因應對策及醫療衛生系統，為國內今後創造更大的生活福祉，請問部長和次長對嗎？"],["周次長志浩：對。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["張委員育美：請關心綠色醫療。"],["周次長志浩：是。"],["張委員育美：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝張委員。"],["主席（張委員育美代）：下一位請吳欣盈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.73096875,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.84471875,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":22.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.930343750000002,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.81596875,"end":63.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.70034375,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.81971875,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.86971875,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.96159375,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.07284375,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.10159375,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.83034375000001,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.73909375,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.81409375,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.57221875000002,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.96846875,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.07346875000002,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.30909375000002,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.04721875,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.19471875000002,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.61596875,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.58596875,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.72034375,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.82096875000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.14971875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.17846875,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.25784375,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.48846875,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.52221875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":207.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.60159375,"end":229.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.42534375000002,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.56159375000001,"end":258.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.57284375,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.29346875000005,"end":267.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.82034375,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.87159375000005,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.27534375000005,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.47346875,"end":307.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.08846875,"end":312.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.75846875,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":320.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.65596875,"end":322.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.17034375000003,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.41846875000005,"end":330.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.00034375,"end":332.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.99159375000005,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","st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COP28"},{"start":19,"end":39.321,"text":"首度將健康納入討論議程根據世界衛生組織估計由於氣候變遷導致空汙、高溫以及疾病的傳播加劇每年有1.9億人的生命健康安全受到衝擊呼籲各國來加速加強醫療體系的"},{"start":42.864,"end":60.795,"text":"應對資源 資源就是說投入經費本次大會有124個國家簽署氣候與健康宣言政府還有開放銀行、慈善機構等等共同承諾投資投入10億美金來對抗氣候變遷帶來的健康危機"},{"start":63.817,"end":76.169,"text":"其中,全球基金提供3億美元,路克斐勒基金也打算投入1億美元。還有,主辦國阿拉伯聯合大公國和數家慈善機構預計投入7.7億美元,用於因升溫惡化的熱帶疾病。"},{"start":86.94,"end":105.377,"text":"大公國內比較熱嘛所以他要投入這個升溫惡化帶來的熱帶疾病那我們回頭來檢視我們國內這幾年來台灣高溫report記錄隨之而來的熱傷害還有高溫疾病越來越多第一線醫師反映啊"},{"start":106.591,"end":133.446,"text":"氣候變遷導致疾病傳染途徑增加在原本是以前南部盛行的登革熱這個已逐漸到全臺地區而且出現了兩萬個這個病例有史以來最多的病例那臺灣民眾也深受空氣污染威脅我們必須強化公衛體系的資源所以首先請教環境部長"},{"start":136.949,"end":144.764,"text":"在這個明年開增碳費對不對那開增碳費使用在哪方面哪些面向上"},{"start":146.008,"end":169.336,"text":"氣候變遷因應法裏面有如列13項啦我非常支持剛剛張偉英影片裏面有提到事實上利用碳費也來支持整個健康方法的有嗎?我們的有嗎?國內的有支持健康公共衛生體系嗎?呃相關的一個有沒有?對啊這些開增碳費之後有沒有?"},{"start":172.18,"end":188.567,"text":"調適方面的用途是可以但是我們再來仔細研究一下我個人覺得只要碳費其中可以用在跟健康相關的或者利用環境部其他的基金事實上是可以目前沒有對不對"},{"start":190.302,"end":209.088,"text":"公委員報告目前是用於溫室氣體減量還有氣候變遷調適所以沒有公共衛生嘛醫療公共衛生這個碳費沒有放在那邊如果沒有就跟行政院爭取啊就是沒有嘛對不對我們來爭取看看未來有沒有可能把它納入"},{"start":209.699,"end":228.786,"text":"所以就是要爭取因為我覺得我們跟國際離得很遠並沒有把健康這個綠色健康醫療放進去所以碳費沒有放在醫療公共衛生上面所以請跟行政院爭取然後我再提醒本次大會"},{"start":231.155,"end":248.12,"text":"氣候與健康宣言這本次的大會那這個我提醒那另外一個我關心的面向就是醫療產業減碳的議題我們在去年3月公布的臺灣2050年淨零碳排路徑以及策略的總說明"},{"start":249.8,"end":267.309,"text":"中央社會福利及衛生福利部長、外交部、經濟部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員"},{"start":270.51,"end":296.605,"text":"今天只有我請衛福部出席對不對只有我邀請你上來所以我要問衛福部那衛福部薛部長有提到說對於淨零碳排更直言說上一次我們問他的時候他說非操之在我的因素太多了你說綠色醫療你衛福部的角色說非操之在我的這個因素太多那站在醫療的綠色醫療關口上衛福部明年度值編列多少你知道嗎2000萬以內1965萬"},{"start":299.346,"end":327.364,"text":"所以這個六五萬的預算辦理什麼減碳教育所以在醫療還沒減碳轉型之前竟然好像代替了教育部在教育做減碳教育你是教育部在做減碳教育轉型所以請問次長在辦理減碳教育後你把一千九百六十萬在辦減碳教育在教育之後"},{"start":329.205,"end":356.077,"text":"醫療產業在近鄰路上能夠得到什麼的協助呢?公委員報告一下齁這裡面的教育其實應該是包含所謂的教育輔導教育什麼?教育以及輔導對啦,就是代替教育部的事情在教育嘛你並沒有爭取來做公共衛生的防治啊也不只是這樣綠色公共衛生也不只是這樣齁我們對於說醫院的時候他應該要怎麼做才對這裡面的檢探教育怎麼做對,這對檢探推廣觀念"},{"start":358.418,"end":386.946,"text":"對他第一個觀念要改變那這樣子他第一個就是第一個他成本降低嘛那第二個的話那他本身的對這個裡面的檢探的確是環境是有貢獻的那第一個就是說這裡面的輔導要讓他知道那尤其是他醫院裡面他哪些地方是他可以著手的那這裡面是基本上是有做一些的盤點的事項那經由我們請人然後到醫院裡面進行這輔導的時候那這方面是可以做一些事情的那當然部長所提到的有很多的地方不見得"},{"start":387.546,"end":415.689,"text":"以下就能夠做得到的地方那當然是包含我們的上下游採購整個涉及到社會產業的這部分層面的部分那這部分的話需要我們另外在後面後續在 跨部會的對另外再需要其他不管還當然也包含跨部會那逐步的往這方面來推動所以我建議衛福部你知道在2030前子呢我們我們有多少預算嗎在在進行攤牌的預算9000億啊所以衛福部應該要去爭取啊做綠色醫療啊"},{"start":417.15,"end":434.94,"text":"對沒有錯那這部分的確是要讓不能不能像部長說的說這個不可非可操之的因素太多不能這樣講應該是我們要主動involve進去啊是循序漸進嘛我們能做的我們趕快先做我們不能做的那跨部會我們一起來看看是怎麼樣逐步的來推動"},{"start":436.161,"end":452.319,"text":"市長我提醒你為什麼因為醫療減碳方式太多了舉個例子我曾舉例子說噴一罐氣喘的噴劑呢這個碳排量大概等於汽車跑300公里做改成粉狀粉狀的話馬上降到4公里"},{"start":453.4,"end":476.742,"text":"馬上這個汽車跑四公里的這個排放量就夠所以呢這個醫療跟藥物的減量其實是非常是大有可為所以我們該花很多時間我們要來重視這個所以這個衛福部環保部呢都是在政策面向要給予醫療院所足夠的誘因誘因就是說告訴他們這樣做能夠帶來大家好"},{"start":477.603,"end":506.035,"text":"對不對要自主管理說對不對一方面讓他知道那一方面如果這部分可以的話那盡量提供他有營往這方面來走那請問你將來這個醫院如何進行探排查探盤查我們會委託或委託相關的團體然後逐漸進去來協助他來做這方面的盤查那這個我知道你有提到這個近鄰探排的指引了對不對但是沒有講到那個時間那個期程吧要多久內"},{"start":507.035,"end":531.5,"text":"我們先了解了之後再做排程因為這剛開始現在要再進行的時候先了解這樣排這個排程比較務實有沒有預計大概多久內有多島家醫院要達到探排查因為呢要不要從醫學中心開始啊等等我們先輔導10家然後看看他裡面的情形10家大概是先從醫學中心開始嘛對不對對從比較大的這個醫院開始所以呢表示我們衛福部"},{"start":536.061,"end":556.964,"text":"有注意到齁那這個COP28在12月落幕嘛對不對12日落幕本次會議六大宣言中健康議題就佔了兩項氣候與健康宣言我講議題啦齁還有氣候健康資金象徵著健康在氣候變化討論中從過去的配角"},{"start":557.805,"end":576.375,"text":"要身為氣候行動的核心所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統醫療韌性是什麼呢就因應對策"},{"start":580.837,"end":593.249,"text":"要建立高度的醫療韌性的對策來建立醫療衛生系統在為我們國內的今後創造更大的生活福祉這樣兩位部長、部長、次長對嗎?對!謝謝!請關心綠色醫療!謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3fd036c7592aeb8bca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a032256ce73f1065489d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:35:30 - 10:45:24","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":594,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:45:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:35:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時35分）謝謝主席，拜託請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["徐委員志榮：部長好。"],["薛部長富盛：許委員好。"],["徐委員志榮：部長跟召委一行，COP28大家辛苦了啦！"],["薛部長富盛：不會、不會，應當的。"],["徐委員志榮：我們剛落幕的COP28，其中今年的會議主題目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的工業革命前的基準，全球平均升溫控制在2度C以內，控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，雖然我們不是會員國，您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到巴黎協定全球盤點的要求了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：目前看起來，事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好，特別是包括這次大會通過的一個決議裡面，再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍，能源效益……"],["徐委員志榮：我大概也有看到您的說明，我們都優於其他國家的9%，我們好像都有百分之二十幾。"],["薛部長富盛：是，當然還能繼續努力。"],["徐委員志榮：所以你說三倍不是什麼問題。一樣的三倍，在報紙裡面，當然不是結論，早上講的就是倡議核能新方向，美陸等20多國呼籲全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍。當然部長您也有回應了，這個標題是說核廢料不解決，核能就是假議題。您講了三個理由……"],["薛部長富盛：還有核能安全……"],["徐委員志榮：其實不是核廢料不解決，是說核廢料不能解決，這是媒體下的標題，您說的三點是什麼？安全……"],["薛部長富盛：是，還有核廢料解決以及全民共識。"],["徐委員志榮：那它又幫你寫錯了，它這個三點理由是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識。"],["薛部長富盛：是，那個可能寫錯了，第二點跟第三點……"],["徐委員志榮：我一直看這個第三點，就是包含在第二點嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員志榮：您講的比較正確，還是要全民的共識，我相信全民應該會有共識，在那個前提之下。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["徐委員志榮：那不禁又讓我想到，我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園？"],["薛部長富盛：跟徐委員報告，2025即使我們沒有談到非核家園，本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠的，因為現在核二、核三到2025年本來也就是要phase out，就是要除役了。"],["徐委員志榮：等於意思是說，到2025年我們核能發電都歸零了？"],["薛部長富盛：大概歸零了，因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了，時間也過了。"],["徐委員志榮：延役呢？"],["薛部長富盛：延役的時間，它有一定的程序，所以也已經過了。"],["徐委員志榮：那重點來了，是不是要經濟部的長官回答？那到時候我們的電夠嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：曾次長要回答嗎？"],["徐委員志榮：本來我們的百分比是天然氣50%、火力30%、綠能20%，早上聽了一下，好像才10%左右，是不是？"],["曾次長文生：哪一個？"],["薛部長富盛：再生能源。"],["曾次長文生：不會，再生能源是今年就超過10%了。"],["徐委員志榮：我們目標是要20%，是不是？"],["曾次長文生：我們到2026年就可以達到20%。"],["徐委員志榮：就可以達到20%？"],["曾次長文生：是的。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣可以完全取代核能發電廠通通停掉嗎？"],["曾次長文生：核能去年8%，今年大概剩5%。它原來的狀況就是核1、2、3大概400億度。"],["徐委員志榮：簡單的講，2025年的12月底，也不是說1月初，簡單講應該講年末啦！2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉，然後臺灣的電力不會不夠。"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，核三的2號機除役的時間是2025年5月，不是年底，是5月就會除役了。"],["徐委員志榮：我是說最慢啦！"],["曾次長文生：好，現在整個供電的狀況，我們的估計都是足夠的，我們現在討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳。"],["徐委員志榮：所以結論是2025年……"],["曾次長文生：供電是穩定的。"],["徐委員志榮：我說年底，你說5月啦！"],["曾次長文生：對。"],["徐委員志榮：5月核三停掉了以後，我們不擔心會缺電？"],["曾次長文生：我們供電是穩定的。"],["徐委員志榮：沒有問題？"],["曾次長文生：是。"],["徐委員志榮：國人民生用電、工業用電都可以確保？"],["曾次長文生：是。"],["徐委員志榮：那應該是算很好的消息。但是為什麼那些國家又要倡議，說要到2050年提高核能發電的三倍呢？就是因為核能發電有它的優點，當然，這是在部長講的前提之下，包括安全、核廢料處理等等。他們是因為核能發電一方面便宜，二方面可能碳排少，是這樣子嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，第一個就是比較高的比例的倡議國家本身都有核工業，這是第一件事。第二件事情，這個事情的倡議其實是來自於，因為要在資本市場取得資金的投注遇到了困難，所以才會有這一個倡議。這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況。"],["徐委員志榮：好，話再講回來，雖然2025年核電都要停掉，但是畢竟核能發電總比火力發電，甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排嘛！"],["曾次長文生：應該是這樣子講，每一個發電的優劣狀況不一樣，就全生命週期來講，它的碳排比較少。"],["徐委員志榮：一方面便宜啦！我的意思是說，在部長講的這個前提之下，我們是不是還可能會有核能發電？因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，現在……"],["徐委員志榮：所以才會說，譬如我們現在都在講要保持開放的態度，當然有關新核能技術發展，核融合等等，我記得陳院長好像也這樣講，也不是說2025年以後臺灣就絕對沒有核能發電，好像他的態度也不是這樣。"],["薛部長富盛：給徐委員報告，事實上像美國現在就積極發展核融合，因為現有在商轉的大部分都是核廢料……"],["徐委員志榮：什麼時候成熟，我們也還不知道嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：還沒有成熟。我再跟委員報告，美國原本在發展小型模組反應器（SMRs），但他在二個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉，因為成本越來越高，而且發電的效率也跟他們預期的有落差。"],["徐委員志榮：好，最後我有點想要講的是，倡議的國家都國土很寬廣。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯，他們核廢料處理沒問題。"],["徐委員志榮：我知道好像以前有張憲義的事件，其實就核廢料的處理，台電好像也跟北韓有簽約過，甚至於跟中國大陸也有touch。次長，你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎？"],["曾次長文生：沒有簽約這件事。"],["徐委員志榮：好像文獻上，我查到的資料是有啦！至少有touch啦！我的意思是，那時候就是因為美國老大反對這樣子，所以就不了了之了。像台積電用電量這麼的大，美國國土又這麼的大，就算我們要繼續核能發電，我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話，你美國老大又要我們台積電的電子產品，我們萬一電不夠的話，你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料吧？我大概的意思是這樣子。次長，你覺得呢？還是你覺得這是假議題，以後我們沒有核能發電的事情，所以沒有核廢料？"],["曾次長文生：這一題是這樣子，高階核廢料最終處置這個事情，跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事，這是第一個。第二個，你剛才提到跟其他國家的核廢料的減容處理，那一個事情應該是法國的部分，但是最後預算在立法院被刪除了，我想大概是這兩件事情，跟委員報告。"],["徐委員志榮：總歸一句，2025非核家園，電力可以不用擔心，大家聽起來就很安心了。最後一次的委員會，我不希望副總統候選人等一下站起來，我也很對不起他。謝謝部長、謝謝次長，謝謝主席。謝謝。"],["曾次長文生：謝謝委員。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝徐委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請張育美委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.40221875,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.27096875,"end":4.334093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.31159375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.539093750000003,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.137843750000002,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.41159375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.13221875,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.27971875,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.49909375,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.53596875,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.05846875,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.00346875,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.32721875,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.16159375,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.85721875,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.58596875,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.32784375,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.38159375000001,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.72284375000001,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.66096875000001,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.73221875,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.05221875000001,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.52471875,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.0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拜託請薛部長有請薛部長部長好好 徐文豪部長跟召委一行這個COP28大家辛苦了啦不會不會 應當的"},{"start":18.168,"end":32.355,"text":"我們剛落幕的這個COP28其中今年的會議主題就是目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的那個工業革命前的那個基準全球平均升溫控制在"},{"start":34.196,"end":53.502,"text":"兩度C以內控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限部長您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到雖然我們不是肺炎國有達到我們巴黎協定全球判定的要求了嗎目前看起來事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好了特別是包括"},{"start":54.482,"end":72.625,"text":"這次大會通過的一個結議裡面再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍能源效益那個我大概也有看到您的說明我們都優移其他國家的9%我們好像都有20幾%嘛所以你說的那個三倍不是什麼問題啦一樣的三倍齁在這個報紙裡面"},{"start":81.872,"end":105.818,"text":"當然不是結論早上講的就是倡議倡議核能新方向美陸等二十多國富裕全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍當然部長您也有回應這個標題是說核廢料不解決核能就是假議題您講的三個那個"},{"start":107.716,"end":109.918,"text":"還有核能安全及全民共識"},{"start":128.902,"end":153.763,"text":"它這個三點理由它是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識所以我一直看這個第三點就是包含在第二點嘛您講的是比較正確啦還是要全民的共識我相信全民應該會有共識啦在那個前提之下"},{"start":155.779,"end":159.726,"text":"那不禁又讓我想到說我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園"},{"start":164.288,"end":191.813,"text":"給習委員報告齁2025即使我們沒有談到火候加減本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠了因為現在核二核三到2025本來也就是要Face out就是要服役了意思就是說到2025我們核能發電都歸零了大概歸零了因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了研議呢時間也過了研議的時間它有一定的程序所以已經也過了嘛"},{"start":192.349,"end":198.095,"text":"那重點來了,是不是要經濟部的長官回答?那到時候我們再電過嗎?本來我們的%數是天然氣50、火力30、力能20,早上聽了一下好像"},{"start":216.758,"end":239.295,"text":"才10%左右是不是哪一個?再生能源沒有不會再生能源是今年就超過10%的我們目標是要20%是不是?我們到2026年就可以達到20%就可以達到20%?是的這樣可以完全期待那個核能發電廠統統停掉嗎?核能去年8%今年大概剩5%"},{"start":244.636,"end":268.536,"text":"那它原來的狀況就是核一二三大概四百億度簡單的講2025年核能發電2025年的時候月底啦也不是說一月初啦簡單講是應該講年末啦2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉然後我們台灣的電力不配不夠"},{"start":269.639,"end":288.692,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說河山的二號機除役的時間是2025年的五月不是年底啦是五月就會除役我是說最慢啦好那它的狀況是現在的狀況就是整個供電的狀況我們的估計就是都是足夠的我們先來討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳"},{"start":290.785,"end":304.514,"text":"所以結論是說2025我說年底啦你說5月啦5月核酸就停掉了以後我們不擔心會切電我們供電是穩定的是的沒有問題是國人"},{"start":306.462,"end":327.213,"text":"民生用電、工業用電都可以確保那應該是算很好的消息但是為什麼那些國家他又要倡議說要到2050年提高分農發電三倍呢當然就是因為分農發電是比較"},{"start":331.178,"end":344.516,"text":"部長的前提之下,安全、火廢料處理等等,是核能發電一方面便宜,二方面可能碳排少"},{"start":345.574,"end":370.815,"text":"是這樣子嗎跟委員報告第一個就是比較高的比例他們本身都有合工業就倡議倡議的國家本身他們有合工業這是第一件事第二個件事情就是這個事情的倡議其實是來自於就是要在資本市場取得資金的投注其實遇到了困難所以才會有這個倡議我想說這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況"},{"start":372.276,"end":390.227,"text":"那話再講回來,雖然2025非核、核電都停掉,但是畢竟核能發電總比火力發電甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排"},{"start":391.951,"end":416.459,"text":"應該是這樣子講就是說每一個發電它的優劣狀況不一樣就是就全生命週期來講一方面便宜啦那我的意思是說在部長講的這個前提之下我們是不是還可能還有昏龍發電因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛跟委員報告所以才會說"},{"start":419.605,"end":437.663,"text":"譬如我們現在都在講說保持開放的態度當然有關新恆隆技術發展什麼融如何我記得好像沈院長好像也這樣講也不是說2025以後就絕對台灣沒有恆隆發展好像他的態度也不是這樣的"},{"start":439.232,"end":465.01,"text":"給習委員報告事實上像美國現在就積極發展核融合因為現有的大部分在商場的大部分都是什麼時候成熟我們也還不知道還沒有成熟那我再跟委員報告一下美國原本在發展叫做小型模組反應器SMR事實上它在兩個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉因為成本越來越高"},{"start":465.891,"end":492.999,"text":"而且發電的整個效力也跟他們預期的事實上是有落差最後我有點想要講的是說那個參與的國家都國土很寬廣是沒錯他們核廢料處理沒問題我知道好像以前有那個張憲毅的事件其實台電好像也有跟北韓有簽約過就核廢料的處理甚至於跟中國大陸也有太極市長你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":496.294,"end":516.75,"text":"好像文獻上我是查到資料是有啦至少有touch我的意思是說那個美國老大你就是那時候就是因為他反對嘛反對這樣子所以就不了了之嘛那我的意思是說像台積電用電量這麼的大那你美國國土又這麼的大"},{"start":517.853,"end":534.625,"text":"就是算我們要繼續核能發電的話我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話你美國老大你又要我們台積電的這個電子產品我們萬一電不夠的話你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料我大概的意思是這樣子不知道您覺得呢"},{"start":540.431,"end":561.298,"text":"這是假議題以後我們沒有活動發展的事情所以沒有核廢料這一題是這樣子就是說高階核廢料最終處置這個事情跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事這是第一個第二個是你剛才提到就是說跟其他國家就是核廢料的減容處理那個事情應該是在上上屆"},{"start":564.679,"end":586.184,"text":"市長這樣子啦 總歸宜記啦2025非核加嚴 電力可以不用擔心 這個我們聽起來大家就很安心了啦最後一次的委員會 我也不希望副總統霍簡仁等一下站起來啦 我也很對不起他啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":591.425,"end":591.726,"text":"請張美璋委員"}]}},{"id":"149027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3c7d29786071ef702a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03223f1cde1601a035825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:28:35 - 10:35:17","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":402,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:35:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:28:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時28分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。部長，我們知道#MeToo事件之後，本席也有針對前環保署督察總隊李隊長的這個部分提出要求，我們要調查嘛！調查報告完成了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不但完成，也經過考績會開會通過了……"],["陳委員椒華：院長也看過了？"],["薛部長富盛：行政程序我已經批了，我們大概在最近應該會對外公布。"],["陳委員椒華：前天行政院秘書長說院長也看過了，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：都看過了，所以應該會去公布。"],["陳委員椒華：所以環境部什麼時候要公布呢？"],["薛部長富盛：只要院長批示過應該就會公布了，因為我已經有批了，所以……"],["陳委員椒華：這個禮拜可以公布嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：應該是可以吧。"],["陳委員椒華：可以嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對，因為這個都公開了，而且紀錄都很清楚，也做了懲處了。"],["陳委員椒華：好，那就請環境部公布。聽說是在等部長回來裁示，那就請……"],["薛部長富盛：我記得我回來，我馬上就批了。"],["陳委員椒華：那請儘速公布，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：是，會的。"],["陳委員椒華：好。再來本席也關心針對山坡地不當開發的問題，這是82年通過的環評，現在他有大規模的變更，只有備查，雖然是新竹縣政府在處理的，不過82年當年定稿的是環保署，雖是前環保署的環評作業，但到現在定稿本都沒有上網，請問什麼時候可以上網呢？本席已經追很久了。"],["薛部長富盛：這一點我請我們環保司的劉司長。"],["劉司長宗勇：跟陳委員報告一下，因為新竹市有給我們一個公文，第一個他手上有一份，另外一份是因為地方政府依照的山開辦法裡面也有提到環境評估報告，但那是在83年的，我們現在在確認那個版本是什麼，因為年代比較久遠，我們現在就是請他去確認。"],["陳委員椒華：對。"],["劉司長宗勇：但我們是從內政部……因為內政部的書件系統上沒有查到那個環評報告書……"],["陳委員椒華：可是當年在環保署審的，環保署應該有吧！"],["劉司長宗勇：對，我們現在就是在確認那個報告，因為它還有提到83年的那個版本，所以我們現在是請新竹縣政府確認……"],["陳委員椒華：如果有好幾個版本，我們也希望都能夠上網。"],["劉司長宗勇：對，趕快確認，我們會把它核對一下。"],["陳委員椒華：可不可以儘速？"],["劉司長宗勇：我們儘快，我們跟內政部就是在談這些文件的核對，畢竟是30年前的檔案，所以要確認一下。"],["陳委員椒華：本席也去地檢署告發了。"],["劉司長宗勇：瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：所以也希望這個公文書能夠儘速出現，不要失蹤那麼久，謝謝。","再來針對那個……部長，我們也在杜拜一起關心氣候變遷COP28……"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員，是。"],["陳委員椒華：現在我們到杜拜也看到化石燃料的使用，整個杜拜幾乎每天的PM2.5都超過150。部長，現在就是說，我也看到我們國內空污的抵換，這個因為本席已經關心非常非常久，有十幾年了，也看到環保署要去用環保金爐、離島減量、舊車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換，所以我要請問部長，這個有經過公正單位的抵換機制，就是怎麼換，還有譬如說，臺北的移動污染源、臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的開發嗎？這個都有審慎地評估過嗎？部長。"],["薛部長富盛：這點我可不可以請我們大氣環境司的蔡司長來回復一下比較細節的部分。"],["陳委員椒華：好。"],["蔡司長孟裕：謝謝委員。跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的，這個部分是不可以抵換的，一定是在同一個空品區，所以如果是剛剛委員提到像……"],["陳委員椒華：可是司長，如果是同一個空品區的話也有問題啊！司長也非常清楚，譬如說工業區一直在增量，然後在偏鄉減量，你沒有做流行病學調查，或者是健康風險評估的時候，你會讓工業區附近民眾的風險會更高，這個是很可怕的啊！不是嗎？"],["蔡司長孟裕：跟委員報告，其實空氣是流來流去的，所以我們現在研究的情形是，整個空氣……"],["陳委員椒華：流來流去，可是整個氣流如果都停滯不流動的時候，那個污染量是很可怕的啊！你不能說在同一個空品區流來流去就可以去抵換，這是不對的，不是嗎？"],["蔡司長孟裕：跟委員報告，這個其實是研究出來的情形，在一個空品區裡面去做抵換，這個部分會得到最好的減量改善的效果。"],["陳委員椒華：我不能夠去相信這個部分，然後請部長好嗎？部長，我要請你瞭解這個部分是滿嚴重的，是不是可以給本席確認，是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的抵換是不會影響國人健康的？你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得這個是有必要，因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制，以及地區產業的發展。"],["陳委員椒華：但是國人健康還不如產業發展嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可是陳委員應該知道，空氣是流通的，就如同我們臺灣每到冬季的時候，空污就特別嚴重，可是那個是境外的，又不是我們自己產生的。"],["陳委員椒華：部長，你講這一句就表示你是外行，冬天空氣不好是境外，這個真的就是你講外行話了，這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣，我在這裡也不攻擊你，我是說這個部分如果你要去抵換，你要拿出科學的、公正的確認，不會危害國人的健康，然後你再正式施行，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["陳委員椒華：那就請司長給本席你們怎麼去抵換、抵換的方法、細節，我們再開公聽會或者是再確認，這樣可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。"],["陳委員椒華：好，那就謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝，請徐志榮徐委員。","先做一個宣告，今日無臨時提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.886593750000001,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.31534375,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.449718750000002,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.63096875,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.65971875,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.06034375,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.80659375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.329718750000005,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.83159375,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.915968750000005,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.03721875,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.783468750000004,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.74534375,"end":46.977218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.563468750000006,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.525343750000005,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.55909375,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.53784375,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.744093750000005,"e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就是說我們也在杜拜一起關心這個氣候變遷COP28那現在我們到杜拜也看到這個化石燃料的使用整個杜拜幾乎每天都是PM2.5都超過150"},{"start":182.503,"end":197.139,"text":"那部長現在就是說我們國內我也看到我們的空屋的抵換那這個本行因為已經關心非常非常久了十幾年了那也看到環保署要去用環保金爐離島減換救車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換"},{"start":204.366,"end":210.07,"text":"那我要請問部長這個有經過公正單位的這個抵換的機制就是怎麼換還有呢比如說臺北的這個移動污染源臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的這個開發可以嗎我們這個都有審慎的去評估過了嗎部長"},{"start":224.492,"end":246.167,"text":"這一點我可不可以請我們大區市長來回覆一下好不好 比較細節的部分好 謝謝委員跟委員報告剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的這個部分是不可以抵換的一定是在同一個空品區所以如果是剛剛委員提到"},{"start":247.308,"end":268.545,"text":"市長如果同一個空品區也有問題啊市長也非常清楚比如說工業區一直在增量然後在偏鄉減量然後你沒有做這個流行病學調查或者是健康風險評估的時候你會讓工業區附近的民眾的這個風險會更高啊這個是很可怕的啊"},{"start":269.085,"end":280.078,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告其實空氣是流來流去的所以整個我們現在研究的情形是整個空氣流來流去可是那個整個氣流如果都"},{"start":284.242,"end":302.223,"text":"都停滯不流動的時候那個污染量是很可怕的啊那你不能說流來流去好像就同一個空品區就可以去抵換這是不對的不是嗎跟委員報告這個其實是研究出來的情形在一個空品區裡面去做抵換"},{"start":303.104,"end":327.922,"text":"那這個部分會得到最好的一個減量跟改善的效果我不能夠去相信這個部分請部長好不好部長我要請你了解這個部分是蠻嚴重那是不是可以給本席這個確認是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的底換是不會影響國人健康的那你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢"},{"start":329.86,"end":354.972,"text":"我覺得這個是有必要因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制以及地區產業的一個發展但是國人健康比產業發展還要不如產業發展嗎就是說空氣是流通就如我們台灣每到冬季的時候空汙就特別嚴重可是那個是境外的啊"},{"start":355.532,"end":380.883,"text":"又不是我們自己產生的部長你講這一句就是表示你是外行空氣空氣冬天空氣不好是境外你這個真的就是你外行化了這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣我在這裡也不攻擊你我是說這個部分你要去底換你要拿出科學的、公正的確認不會危害國人健康"},{"start":381.483,"end":382.943,"text":"然後你再正式施行"}]}},{"id":"149026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c389b6618603acd76ca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322ec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:19:23 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正正在進行當中所以以前只有書審而已對 只有書審那你現在應該要實際到現場去看它是不是有這樣的技術啊沒錯 未來我們會有三個步驟除了書審"},{"start":468.656,"end":497.313,"text":"接下來事因應也要看接下來在因應當中還要隨時去監督我們希望把它更具體的落實也來監測看看到底這些廠商有沒有按照既定的計劃書規範來做我相信未來是可以做很大的改善同時跟委員報告以往我們是把SRF只有一個標準原因是我們是以品質管制的角度來看"},{"start":497.813,"end":515.932,"text":"那歐洲他們是以產品的角度所以它產品有分等級那目前環境部在規劃的方向也是要朝著去分級的方向所以我相信只要給環境部一段時間我覺得SRF這一塊應該是可以更精進更落實"},{"start":518.114,"end":525.538,"text":"我們是希望說真的能夠落實啊而不是假這個名義然後去行這個逢號離職式啊我們發現這個問題了會積極改進好 謝謝黃委員謝謝有請陳焦華 陳委員謝謝主席 請部長"}]}},{"id":"149025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c374f9a4d56476bb22a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322e89831f4f6d40dec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"10:08:27 - 10:19:16","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":649,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:19:16+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:08:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（10時8分）首先謝謝主席有排這個議程，我們這個會期雖然快要結束，但是由COP28勾引出非常重要也是將來政府各部門要努力的方向，我想今天非常有意義，感謝各部門的努力。因為我講的比較跟健康……但是因為跟環境部還是有關係，我再請薛部長好了，那衛福部是周次長，請，我們一起來分享一下，好不好？"],["主席：有請行政單位，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：邱委員好。"],["邱委員泰源：我們看下一張，因為時間的關係，以這一張來講，我會比較focus在健康。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員泰源：climate change跟health risk這部分，當然2023年世界醫師會……，世界醫師會擁有1,100萬個醫師在世界上，其實他的發動力量是很夠的啦，分布在都會，當然也很多在偏鄉地區服務，在2023年的一個宣言，尤其是針對基層醫療primary health care，當然不只climate change，現在慢性病越來越多，流行病史的 risk，人類也一直在承受環境的衝擊、氣候的變遷對健康的影響，還有抗生素的esistance（抗藥性）等等，在 coming years、未來都是很重要的。其特別強調當然Primary health care，基層醫療的action是非常重要，守住第一線以防治、建立整個韌性的醫療防疫健康體系，是這樣的情況，加上COP，右邊是COP的主席，我們都知道碳排、空氣污染對健康都非常有影響。","我很敬佩我的一個學生，現在是大林慈濟醫院副院長─林名男，多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了，也算是臺灣之光，世界上相關的議程常常都會請他過去。我最近也開始跟他密切地瞭解他在做什麼，希望將之推展到整個醫療體系。我想這個部分先跟兩位首長說明一下。","再看下一張，因為我的問題在後面，剛好我們每一年世界醫師會跟臺灣醫師會都會在臺灣辦理國際研討會，不管是外交部或者衛福部都很熱烈地支撐，每一年相關的都是很重要的主題，今年的主題是全球健康安全與醫療照護體系。我們請的2個世界重量級的總統都有接見，這個女生是世界醫師會會長，這個男生是理事會主席、是韓國。我們在12月辦理，所以都會把今年度大概世界醫師會在全世界各國演講的主題、最重要的拿來我們這裡，因為他們兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係，而且講得非常精彩，而我們國內的演講者在這方面，還是在於防疫以後怎麼樣建立韌性的部分，所以他們稍微好像前進一點點，我們要趕快接上進度。因此我覺得今天的會議很重要，我們今天應該要有一些就未來希望呼籲政府或者民間各種 NGO，甚至是醫界，我們要怎麼樣做，我想這個部分拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔起領導的責任。"],["薛部長富盛：好，是。"],["邱委員泰源：不要到下次COP29又要再討論一次，中間就是按照我們原來的規畫、計畫一直在進行，這樣我整個review起來就可能跟不上時代。","那我們看下一張，氣候變遷所會造成的，我們用眼睛看比較快，造成區域的差距越大、疾病的型態，還有不要忘記了，心理健康與社會心理這部分在過去我們裡面沒有……我們在檢討，我也希望衛福部以後注意到這個部分，climate change對mental、psychosocial方面的問題；對老人家的衝擊，我想這個不言而喻，更有很多健康上的問題。","請看下一張，這張我是希望提出來，在我們這次的國際研討會裡面，大致上我們覺得，其以醫師的角色，因為是世界醫師會，大概有幾個工作可以這樣做，我請衛福部能夠帶回去檢討看看這些，未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣的一個趨勢，衛福部可以做哪些事情，或者已經在做哪些事情，我想這個非常重要，讓醫療體系趕快接上，而不是只有在醫療體系還限於碳盤查的階段，看起來這樣跟不上時代。所以拜託，好不好？次長，可以嗎？"],["周次長志浩：好，可以。"],["邱委員泰源：我是希望如此，因為這個會期，現在是12月了，你在一個月內看能不能提出一個報告給我們衛環委員會？"],["周次長志浩：好。"],["邱委員泰源：讓我們展開為了這一屆的ending跟下一屆，像黃秀芳委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向啦！好不好？最重要的當然是，還有就是可能要有資源進來。今年大概都沒有這方面的預算，但是未來我們因為要做這些重要的事情，所以明年是不是可以來編預算？當然，包括全民的宣導、專業人員的教育和研究，不要讓這些花了一、二十年時間關心climate change的同仁們，還是很寂寞地在那邊做研究，他們過去的努力也代表臺灣至少不要落後，現在我們要給他們温暖、給他們支持，在他們過去的經驗和成果之上繼續努力，這應該也是我們吳召委的心願。這個我要拜託衛福部。","當然，我過去在這裡也不是說哪個部會負責什麼，而是彼此都有關係，像過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作，我相信環境部在健康和climate change也有很多合作的平臺，尤其我們薛部長、薛校長對生命科學、人民健康非常重視……"],["薛部長富盛：是，跟委員報告，我們跟國衛院有很多空氣和健康的合作。"],["邱委員泰源：你還創設了中興大學的醫學系，非常厲害！所以我想你對這個部分很瞭解，所以我也拜託環境部帶回去看看這些問題可以從你們那邊怎麼樣來幫忙。","接下來還有一些建議，因為要兩個部來幫忙，所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多建議，這整個環境變化所影響的當然很多、很多，各部會都有，但是因為我主要focus在醫療、健康，所以請針對WMA的建議在一個月內給我們一份資料，說明目前政府落實了哪些、未來要做哪些、有什麼構想。","現在臺灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成的其他健康問題，都沒有把健康問題納入氣候變遷行動的核心，這個部分希望未來衛福部和環境部在規劃的時候能注意，何況這次最多國家簽的宣言就是climate change and health，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員泰源：部長也有帶隊去，跟部長出去考察一定很累，他非常有精神，但是我想也會收穫很多，一定帶了很多資料回來，以後會對臺灣有很大的貢獻。","此外，感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖考察了相關的環境、垃圾的問題，部長親自帶隊。他以一個澎湖長大的小孩，有如此傑出的成就，但還是很瞭解地方的需求，說明了環境部未來要做的事情，我們收穫很多。也感謝部會同仁參與，我覺得那對澎湖的發展非常重要，在這邊特別感謝。","我剛剛提的這些就請次長在1個月內給我們報告喔！"],["周次長志浩：好。"],["邱委員泰源：因為未來國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做，我們就會來呼籲。薛部長這邊也幫忙一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝邱委員。"],["邱委員泰源：特別謝謝吳召委今天安排這個很有意義的專題報告讓大家討論。好，感謝大家，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝邱委員。"],["主席：謝謝召委。下一位請黃秀芳黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.44846875,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.812843750000003,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.00596875,"end":29.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.148468750000003,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.16846875,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.31159375,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.235343750000006,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.00721875,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.454093750000006,"end":48.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.17971875,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.69846875,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.39034375,"end":54.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.672218750000006,"end":56.157218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.42721875,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.93284375,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.13784375,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.98096875,"end":85.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.55346875000001,"end":96.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.39971875,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.35284375,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.40284375,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.42346875000001,"end":120.48471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.77159375000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.54721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.20534375000001,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.96034375,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.00159375,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.98346875000001,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.35284375,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.10346875000002,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.19159375,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.97534375,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.62471875,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.81409375,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.60284375,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.59846875000002,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":183.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.85471875000002,"end":183.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.17534375000002,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.81471875000003,"end":203.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":201.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.06284375,"end":201.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.52659375000002,"end":205.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.44596875000002,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.33471875,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.65909375,"end":221.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.17346875,"end":224.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.65346875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.77534375000002,"end":237.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.36096875,"end":243.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.55409375000002,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.1859687500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謝謝主席首先謝謝主席排這個有COP28勾引出我們在這個會期雖然快要結束但是非常重要也是將來不管是政府各部門要努力的一個方向我想今天非常有意義感謝各部門的努力因為我講的比較跟"},{"start":31.207,"end":56.983,"text":"但是因為跟環境部還是有關係,我再請薛部長好了,那衛福部是?周市長來,我們一起來分享一下好不好?好,有請行政單位,謝謝我們看下一張,因為時間的關係我們看這一張來講,我會比較focus在健康、health risk這個部分"},{"start":57.739,"end":84.983,"text":"Climate Change和Risk這部分那當然我們在2003年世界一世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世"},{"start":85.766,"end":105.202,"text":"當然不只climate change啦當然現在慢性病越來越多流行病的risk也一直承受人類在承受環境的衝擊那個氣候的變遷對健康的影響還有抗生素的一個resistance"},{"start":108.526,"end":136.058,"text":"抗藥性等等的都是在未來很重要的那他有特別強調當然基層醫療的action是非常重要的鎖住第一線來建立整個韌性的一個醫療防疫健康體系所以這樣的一個情況那加上COP右邊這邊是COP的主席我們都知道這個碳排空氣汙染"},{"start":136.974,"end":166.237,"text":"大概都是對健康非常的有影響我很敬佩我一個學生現在是大嶺慈濟醫院的副院長林明蘭多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了也算是臺灣之光常常世界上相關的議程都會請他過去我最近也開始跟他密切的來瞭解他來做什麼希望把他推展到可能醫療體系我想這個部分"},{"start":167.555,"end":194.923,"text":"先跟兩位首長先說明一下再看下一張好了因為我的問題可能在後面剛好也是我們每一年世界醫師會跟臺灣醫師會都會在臺灣辦理一個國際研討會不管是外交部或者是衛福部都很熱烈的來執行每一年都相關的都很重要的主題今年的主題是全球健康安全醫療招募體系"},{"start":195.988,"end":215.242,"text":"其實我們請的兩個重量級的世界這個總統都有接見這個女生是世界醫事會會長這男生是理事會主席是韓國韓國他們不約而同都把最近一年的我們在12月半所以都會把今年今年度大概世界醫事會在全世界各國"},{"start":216.434,"end":236.413,"text":"在演講的主題最重要的拿來我們家因為兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係而且講得非常精彩我們國內的演講者在這方面還是在防疫以後總要建立一個韌性的一個"},{"start":237.569,"end":258.317,"text":"所以他們還稍微好像前進一點點我們要趕快接上這個進度所以今天的我覺得今天的會議很重要我們今天會議應該要有一些未來希望呼籲政府或者是全民間各種NU甚至EJ我們怎麼樣來做我想這個部分環境部跟"},{"start":259.451,"end":282.38,"text":"拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔任起這個領導的責任不要到下一次COP29再來,又要來討論一次中間就是按照我們原來的規劃、計畫一直在進行,這樣可能我整個review起來可能跟不上時代那我們看下一張影像那氣候當然變遷會造成這個,我想我們用眼睛看比較快"},{"start":284.203,"end":307.102,"text":"造成區域的差跡與大疾病的形態還有不要忘記心理健康跟社會心理這個部分一直在過去我們裡面沒有我們在檢討我也希望衛生部在以後注意到這個部分和他們Change對Mental、Psycho、Social方面的問題對老人家的衝擊我想這不言而喻多的是更有健康很多健康上的問題"},{"start":311.348,"end":336.317,"text":"那我這張是希望提出來我要請衛福部這是在我們這次的國際研討會裡面大概大致上覺得我們那個他是用醫師啦因為是世界醫師會嘛大概有幾個工作可以這樣做我請那個衛福部我能夠帶回去"},{"start":337.748,"end":365.912,"text":"去看看檢討這些將來可不可以未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣一個趨勢我們未來可不可以做哪些事情已經在做哪些事情了或者在做哪些事情我想這個非常重要讓醫療體系趕快來接上而不是只有在醫療體系還在盤查還在現已盤查探盤查的階段看起來這樣對不上時代所以拜託我們好不好?次長可以嗎?好可以"},{"start":366.732,"end":389.084,"text":"我希望因為這個會期現在十二月了,你一個月後看能不能拿一個報告給我們未完給我們展開為了這一屆的Ending跟下一屆像我們黃學芳委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向最重要當然就是說,還有就是可能要有資源進來"},{"start":394.352,"end":416.476,"text":"明年是不是未來我們必須要做這些事情?這是重要的,我們就來編預算當然包括從前面的先導、專業人的教育、研究不要讓這些研究、關心climate change的這些同仁們"},{"start":417.922,"end":436.848,"text":"花了1、2十年的研究還是被很寂寞的在那邊做他們過去的努力也帶領到台灣治理至少不要落後現在我們要給他溫暖、給他支持然後利用他們過去的經驗、成果我們繼續來努力這也是我們吳釗緯應該他的心願當然最重要就是有一個這個我拜託那個"},{"start":446.464,"end":467.236,"text":"衛福部當然我也希望我過去在這裡也是部會都不是說你負責什麼都彼此有關係像我們過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作的我相信環境部如果在健康跟climate change裡面也有很多合作的平台也很恭喜我們學部長、學校長"},{"start":468.632,"end":496.441,"text":"我們跟國衛院有很多空氣跟健康的合作創起了我們中興大學的醫學系這個非常的厲害所以我想他對這個部分能夠了解我也拜託衛福部環境委員可以帶回去看看這些問題可以從你那邊走過來幫忙好我們看下一張有一些建議我當然是也在這邊"},{"start":499.619,"end":522.636,"text":"因為要兩個部來幫忙所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多的建議那目前因為我主要focus在醫療、健康所以我想這整個環境的變化所影響的當然很多很多各部會都有那針對WMA的建議目前政府落實哪些未來要做哪些也在這一次的一個"},{"start":524.209,"end":548.491,"text":"大概一個月給我們一個看做多少算多少,未來有什麼構想?看下一張因為現在台灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成其他問題都沒有把健康問題納入在氣候變遷行動的核心所以我想這個部分希望未來衛福部跟環境部在規劃的時候能把"},{"start":550.708,"end":578.602,"text":"造成的驚豪,何況這一次你看全部國家簽最多國家簽最多國家簽的先年就是climate change and health是沒錯沒錯跟部長出去訪查一定很累他這種魔鬼他非常有精神我想但是我想也會收復很多一定也帶很多那邊開會的會以後會對國家對台灣會有很大的貢獻"},{"start":580.873,"end":609.164,"text":"也感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖也去考察了一些澎湖相關環境、垃圾的問題那部長親自帶隊他以一個澎湖長大的小孩有如此的成就但是還是很瞭解到地方的需求那給我們很多環境部未來要做的事情給我們收穫很多也感謝部長"},{"start":611.162,"end":638.017,"text":"不會裡面的同仁來參與我覺得那個對澎湖的發展也是非常重要在這邊特別感謝我剛剛提的這些就請次長一起報告因為接下來我們就要未來我們國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做我們就會來服役先副長這邊也幫忙一下好 謝謝邱委特別謝謝吳釗緯"},{"start":640.336,"end":646.083,"text":"今天排的這樣子很有意義的一個大家討論好感謝大家謝謝好謝謝邱委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3a1b927e31281aa13a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03224afb211783feff0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"09:58:00 - 10:08:22","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":622,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:08:22+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:58:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（9時58分）謝謝召委，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員為洲：薛部長，這一次你有去參加這個COP會議嗎？有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，有。"],["林委員為洲：你是坐什麼艙，經濟艙還是商務艙？"],["薛部長富盛：商務艙。"],["林委員為洲：OK，你知道規定嘛！部長級的可以坐商務艙，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：按照……是。"],["林委員為洲：有沒有被升等升成頭等艙？"],["薛部長富盛：應該有吧！"],["林委員為洲：你有升等成頭等艙？"],["薛部長富盛：因為這個都是幕僚安排，我……"],["林委員為洲：所以你是坐頭等艙去的，誰幫你升等的你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我整個行程這些事務性的……"],["林委員為洲：說明一下，請你們的幕僚幫忙說明，誰幫部長升等頭等艙的？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，這個是按照行政院的規定。"],["林委員為洲：行政院規定只能坐商務艙喔！"],["蔡署長玲儀：部會首長如果是有提供頭等艙的話，是可以的。"],["林委員為洲：你們是買頭等艙，還是買商務艙啦？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們是買頭等艙。"],["林委員為洲：喔！買的時候就買頭等艙？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：這是符合規定嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：你要確定呢！"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：還是被升等的？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，按照就是……"],["林委員為洲：原來就買頭等艙？"],["蔡署長玲儀：按照規定來的。"],["林委員為洲：不過這個以後我們還是可以檢討，有必要一定要坐頭等艙嗎？因為我從來沒有坐過頭等艙，我不知道頭等艙會是什麼樣的滋味，商務艙已經很好了，我坐過商務艙，所以將來預算上我們再來檢討。好，你請回，部長留著。","我們先看一下你們在FB的粉專，最近你們一個禮拜貼好幾篇跟本業無關的內容，幫行政院大內宣，像是長照2.0溫暖照顧。你們是環境部，不是衛福部。"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告……"],["林委員為洲：還有打造溫暖而堅韌的臺灣，講疫情特別條例照顧臺灣，這跟你有什麼關係？跟環境部有什麼關係？"],["薛部長富盛：給林委員報告……"],["林委員為洲：要你們貼文大內宣？"],["薛部長富盛：行政院的部會是一體的。"],["林委員為洲：幫忙大內宣？"],["薛部長富盛：這個跟大內宣沒有關係。給林委員報告，行政院底下的各部會是一體的，這個部分已經有40……"],["林委員為洲：難怪按讚數是30、40，沒有人看，所以也沒有得到什麼大內宣的效果。我建議你們還是回歸自己的本業，對不對？這幾天大家都在討論COP會議到底在談哪一些內容？臺灣還有哪一些可以做得更好，對不對？要專注在本業，貼這個也沒人看，你們的FB評價兩顆星，加油，請注重本業。"],["薛部長富盛：是……"],["林委員為洲：這才是你的專業。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員，我們當然也注重本業，整個行政團隊……"],["林委員為洲：比例是一個禮拜貼三篇，全部是大內宣，是跟貴部毫無關係的貼文，行政院有行政院的網站或是FB粉絲專業社團，它去貼嘛！你們要注重本業。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員為洲：好，你去參加COP 28會議，當然大家在講從27屆到現在28屆，我們到底有沒有進步？但是因為指標的關係，有的NGO評論我們是退步，但是你們一直說我們是進步的，好吧！各有各的指標，採樣的指標不同，不過這個是叫做德國看守的NGO……"],["薛部長富盛：它是一個民間組織。"],["林委員為洲：我知道它是一個NGO，它的CCPI每年都會評，大家也都會參考，所以還是注意一下。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們來當做參考。"],["林委員為洲：看它他怎麼樣評。你剛剛有做一部分解釋，不過這幾項我們拿出來看，整體表現就不講，因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來……。我們看它的內容，臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差，在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評，非常差的是能源使用，所以這一部分值得我們檢討。你知道我們現在發電的組合，火力發電占多少嗎？火力發電裡面當然有燃煤、燃氣……"],["薛部長富盛：燃煤跟天然氣大概都各自將近40%左右。"],["林委員為洲：所以占八成。"],["薛部長富盛：是，可是我們的再生能源大概已經從1、2%到現在10%了，這個成長速率在國際上的排名應該是前段班。"],["林委員為洲：降低火力發電的比例做得不好，所以這個部分……"],["薛部長富盛：我們先用天然氣取代煤……"],["林委員為洲：天然氣還是會排放氣體。"],["薛部長富盛：能源都是以進口為主，所以各位應該也都知道，我們不可能一時之間馬上……"],["林委員為洲：天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源。"],["薛部長富盛：它的排碳量比煤……"],["林委員為洲：它會排哪一些氣體？"],["薛部長富盛：會排二氧化碳溫室氣體……"],["林委員為洲：也是會排嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：但是它排……"],["林委員為洲：它也是化石原料嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯，但是它的量比生煤少很多。"],["林委員為洲：大家都要減少化石原料的使用，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：所以這次的COP為什麼不敢直接說phase-out of fossil fuels，最後也是必須妥協。"],["林委員為洲：因為有人反對啊！阿拉伯國家反對。"],["薛部長富盛：為什麼會反對？就是因為它不實際。"],["林委員為洲：因為他們生產石油啊！為什麼反對？難道你要幫他講話嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，林委員，因為我們沒有生產石油……"],["林委員為洲：人家要phase-out of fossil fuels，這是趨勢嘛！你要幫他們講話，是嗎？說這個大家沒有達成共識。"],["薛部長富盛：不是幫他們講話啦，因為我們也沒有生產石油。"],["林委員為洲：對啊！我們要有自己的……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：2050能夠達到淨零碳排。"],["薛部長富盛：我們要對自己有信心。"],["林委員為洲：你的能源那一塊是最主要的，我提供幾個資料，COP27的時候，他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電，就是火力發電，還有中鋼、林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的500大碳排放源，我們就占了幾個？中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電；今年COP28，我們臺灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善，還更退步。所以能源政策其實是關係到我們2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點，如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或天然氣，一直沒有辦法減少，我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚。這些都是全球500大碳排最多的，全球500大在我們臺灣，然後你說我們做得多好，這個我們慢慢來討論，有必要整體檢討我們的能源政策，尤其是電，因為電是源頭，你產生電才能讓企業運轉，你即使把汽車全部改成電動汽車，不直接排二氧化碳，但是如果你用的電是火力發電，這些在路上跑的汽車、電車用的還是火力產生的能源，那個源頭我們要好好來探討。今天因為時間的關係，以後我們再找時間探討，等一下我們要去朝野協商。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，有請邱泰源委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.16534375,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.941593750000001,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.207218750000001,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.480343750000003,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.872218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.46284375,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.95221875,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.20096875,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.69034375,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.23034375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.293468750000002,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.70659375,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.782218750000002,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.71034375,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.68909375,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.207843750000002,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.950343750000002,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.996593750000002,"end":33.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.96659375,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.49784375,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.556593750000005,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.43409375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.39596875,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.72471875,"end":45.002843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.85096875,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.33159375,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.40284375,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.38159375,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.541593750000004,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.60471875,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.65534375,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.67034375,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.86409375000001,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.26471875,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.94784375,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.85846875,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.46534375,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.30471875,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.73909375000001,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.27471875,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.36721875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.31221875,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.51846875000001,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.83471875000001,"end":96.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.88909375,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.69409375000001,"end":117.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.32471875,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.51346875,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.39096875000001,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.58346875,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.19909375,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.69596875000002,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148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這個就各有各的這個"},{"start":284.15,"end":292.81,"text":"指標它採樣的指標的不同不過還是因為這個是叫做德國看守"},{"start":294.397,"end":314.468,"text":"的一個NGO每年我知道一個NGO他CCPI每年都會評但是大家也都會參考所以還是注意一下看他用什麼樣的評你剛剛有做了一部分的解釋不過針對這幾項我們把它拿出來看就是針對"},{"start":321.584,"end":343.708,"text":"整體表現 這個我們就不講因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來的然後我們看它的內容臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評非常差的是能源使用"},{"start":352.202,"end":371.702,"text":"這部分我覺得啊是有值得我們檢討的你知道我們現在的能源的發電的組合火力發電佔多少火力發電裡面當然有燃煤、燃氣大概各自相近40%左右嘛所以佔八成啊是"},{"start":372.537,"end":390.364,"text":"可是我們在再生能源已經從幾乎大概1、2%到現在已經10%了我想這個成長速率大概在國際上排名應該是前段班啦火力發電的降低比例做得不好"},{"start":391.766,"end":405.464,"text":"我們先從用天然氣來期待煤我們能源都是以進口為主所以各位應該也都知道天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源"},{"start":406.636,"end":427.618,"text":"他會排什麼?他會排哪一些?氣體?二氧化碳也是氣體會,但是他的排...他也是化石原料嘛!是!沒錯!但是他的量...大家都要減少化石原料的使用嘛!所以這一次的COP他為什麼不敢直接講說Face out fossil fuel?"},{"start":428.198,"end":447.063,"text":"你看他也是自己最後必須因為有人反對阿阿拉伯國家反對阿為什麼會反對就是因為他不實際因為他生產石油阿為什麼反對難道你要幫他講話嗎因為我們沒有生產石油這是趨勢嘛這是趨勢嘛"},{"start":458.308,"end":466.611,"text":"阿你要幫他們講話說 因為這個沒有通過大家的共識不是幫他們講話啦 因為我們也沒有生產食用 對啊我們要有自己的 是 沒錯 達到2050我們要對自己有信心啦 能夠淨零碳排阿你的 欸 能源那一塊是最主要的啦好啦 我提供幾個 好"},{"start":482.53,"end":507.577,"text":"這個二十七的時候他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電就火力發電火力發電還有中鋼林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的五百個碳排放源全球最髒的五百大"},{"start":508.871,"end":524.202,"text":"我們就佔了幾個中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電今年COP28我們台灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善還更退步所以這個齁這個這個能源政策齁其實關係到我們整個"},{"start":537.819,"end":562.296,"text":"這個2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點就在能源政策了如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或是天然氣一直沒有辦法減少我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚啦那個都是全球500大排碳排最多的500大在我們台灣你說我們做得多好"},{"start":568.179,"end":580.848,"text":"有必要 這個我們慢慢來討論有必要整體檢討我們的能源尤其是電因為電是源頭啦你產生電才能讓企業"},{"start":585.754,"end":606.162,"text":"運轉讓汽車你即使全部改把它改成電動汽車不直接排碳二氧化碳但是你用的電如果是火力發電這些在路上跑的汽車電車用的還是火力的東西火力的能源所以那個源頭我們要好好的來探討"},{"start":607.284,"end":618.18,"text":"好今天時間的關係以後我們再找時間探討等一下我們要去草野協商了好謝謝林委員好謝謝謝謝林委員有請邱太元邱委員"}]}},{"id":"149023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3bdc7fe97080a56eba8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03227ec09d647ab4e3bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"09:45:19 - 09:57:55","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":756,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:57:55+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（9時45分）謝謝主席。我要先請經濟部曾次長，還有環境部薛部長以及農業部王玉真王副司長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請行政單位。"],["吳委員玉琴：曾次長，我先請教你，因為有關經濟部的議題，這次COP第28次締約大會針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個共識，裡面有幾項要跟經濟部討論一下，因為接下來這樣一個目標，檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是難度有沒有很高，剛剛其實洪申翰委員也有稍微提到，比如說COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長3倍，增至3倍，如果照我們現在的情形來講，臺灣的再生能源現在大概占整個總發電量的8.26%，如果在2030年……"],["曾次長文生：2022年。"],["吳委員玉琴：2022年的時候，接下來到2030年如果要成長3倍，我大概估算總電量增加2%，然後再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右，如果這樣估算應該是合理。其實我們從2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面，再生能源要達到60%到70%，但因為我們沒有一個中間的目標值，經濟部在估算過程中應該是循序漸進的成長，我們2030年要達到24.8%這個目標可行嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，就是兩個部分，第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8%，國發會的規劃是要能源部門做到27%。"],["吳委員玉琴：27%？"],["曾次長文生：到30%。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以比這個要求還更高。"],["曾次長文生：所以是會比這個量還更高。第二個部分跟委員報告，這次COP28在計算的時候是算裝置容量。"],["吳委員玉琴：裝置容量！所以不是發電？"],["曾次長文生：我們的裝置容量到2030年依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過3倍的，我們現在規劃起來的量，以2022年大概14個giga來做基礎的話，我們到2030年會超過40個giga是目標值。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：是目標，我們會超過40個giga，所以，以這一個要求來講，再生能源裝置容量成長3倍，或是委員提的這一頁簡報，就是發電量要比2022年成長3倍，都是我們的目標，我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。就能源的配置上面，這個再生能源是我們現在的風力發電─陸上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電，有沒有地熱？在整個發展裡面。"],["曾次長文生：地熱這部分，我們大概有三個重要的目標，第一個就是加速speed up，然後scale up，這是既有的一些技術，另外一個是diversify，就是要讓它更多元化。除了風跟光以外，地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源，當然也會配合水力。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔，還有水力的部分。謝謝。","接下來也要請教您一下，煤電減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題，在這次COP28也談到應該要去發展所謂的碳捕捉負排放（CCUS）技術，在這樣一個技術裡面，請問，如果我們真的在2050年要吸收4,020萬公噸的二氧化碳，我們辦公室在估算二氧化碳透過這樣一個碳捕捉技術把它抓下來，我要問的是這個量應該很大吧？未來怎麼儲存？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，這次跟化石燃料有關的，從phase out一路改變成transition away，其實化石燃料也有不同的類型，燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的，其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出，當然它必須配合CCS，它必須配合CCS，就是碳捕捉封存或是碳捕捉再利用，碳捕捉封存再利用這裡面算到了4,000萬噸……"],["吳委員玉琴：這是您的報告裡面提到的？"],["曾次長文生：對，這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：這個CCS現在正在發展中，有幾個事情，我們現在跟國科會合作的相關項目包含國內的地質學者，事實上臺灣西岸有一些適合的地層能夠來做碳的封存，但是現在捕捉的技術要跟全世界一起合作，因為碳的封存、碳的捕捉跟脫附然後再封存，這中間怎麼能夠提升它的捕捉效率，這是重要的工作。"],["吳委員玉琴：也就是說2050年，我們的碳捕捉技術可能還會不斷精進。"],["曾次長文生：其實這幾年包括國際上很多的大公司都在做這一塊。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，我問的是這些固化的二氧化碳捕捉下來了會變成碳酸鈣嘛，那這些的儲存，你剛剛也提到西部有地方可以放，因為我在估算量的時候，其實它大概每4年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101耶！所以這個量蠻大的，關於去化等等，你們有在思考這個問題嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，因為它地質上面的尺度，如果可以的話，我們其實應該找專門的學者來，我只是聽他們的說明之後轉述，我怕有點不精準。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：但他們現在估算出來的量遠高於此，因為這個是1年0.4億噸，他們算出來的……"],["吳委員玉琴：更高？"],["曾次長文生：對，是比這個還要高的，而且它是打到海水底下的鹽水層，他們有一些他們的作法，我覺得很多技術細節，如果在這邊講……"],["吳委員玉琴：是，瞭解。"],["曾次長文生：我不是專家，我怕講錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：到2050年其實有很多技術還有很多的課題要面對，我想我們政府以及剛剛聽曾次長這樣講是有在思考的，不是完全沒有去想這些事。"],["曾次長文生：常常在討論這些問題。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝，我知道這個技術還是有很多要討論的。","接下來要問有關這一次在COP 28裡面提到甲烷要清零，這要問農業部跟環境部，我們知道在2023年國家排放清冊裡面有記載甲烷的排放，2021年甲烷的排放大概是445萬噸左右二氧化碳當量，這樣的情形之下，其實農業大概占了188萬噸，廢棄物大概占了180萬噸。如果到2030年要甲烷淨零，畜牧業部分，因為最主要的甲烷大概就是畜牧業還有廢棄物，請問農業部跟環境部有什麼想法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟吳委員報告，有關廢棄物的部分，我們已經在推動厭氧發酵產生沼氣，這已經有一些示範的場域，未來會持續。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以2030年要清零，有沒有問題？因為他的目標也是2030年甲烷要清零。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，我們的廢棄物最主要來自掩埋場，掩埋有機物造成甲烷……"],["吳委員玉琴：還有污水場啊！"],["顏署長旭明：對，還有污水場的污泥。在掩埋場部分，目前我們的掩埋場有48座，封閉之後設置太陽能，這是中和的部分；沼氣發電在短期之內，如果能夠負極的，我們會發電，比較沒有辦法負極的，我們是破壞做沼氣收集。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["顏署長旭明：所以目前以高峰相比的話，整個掩埋場的甲烷排放量已經降到以前的10%左右，只剩下10%，我們會依上述的講法來做中和跟解除。"],["吳委員玉琴：有一個目標值，我們再來努力嘛！"],["顏署長旭明：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：農業部因為畜牧要養豬、養牛，這好像很難，你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個？"],["王副司長玉真：是，簡單跟委員報告，我們在畜牧產業的部分，除了我們積極推動禽畜糞尿的資源化處理，所有的家禽、家畜，包括最重要的……"],["吳委員玉琴：你們也是用厭氧發酵來發電嗎？"],["王副司長玉真：豬隻的部分的話，是。而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上在做沼氣的再利用。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以也是朝這個目標來解決啦！"],["王副司長玉真：有、有、有，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝。最後我要問環境部，給你一點時間來回應氣候變遷保護績效CCPI對我們臺灣的評價，說我們的排名倒數第7；或是我們溫室氣體排放排名倒數第4；再生能源所占比例好像也太低；且能源耗用與節能也表現很差。我們有那麼差嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤，跟整個COP28締約方大家追求的方向完全相反，舉個例子而言，菲律賓跟印度竟然排名第6名跟第7名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了6、70%，而且還在增加燃煤發電廠。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯。"],["薛部長富盛：所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知，更何況在2030年我們臺灣人均每個人一年只能排放2.7噸，結果菲律賓、印度每個人可以排放到7噸到8噸，同樣是人，為什麼他們會那麼高？"],["吳委員玉琴：對，為什麼會這樣計算？"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論、不用花時間去討論。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔！是。"],["薛部長富盛：我們國內也有學者發表文章來反駁這個CCPI。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，雖然部長這樣講，可是當國際NGO來對我們這樣的評價，其實對我們來講國際形象還是有傷的啊！"],["薛部長富盛：給委員報告，聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心，它的評比在210個國家裡面，我們是排第45名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是、是。"],["薛部長富盛：那個才是根據減碳量的表現，所以在210個國家裡面我們排第45名，我們是屬於前段班的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：這個CCPI它才選67個國家，去年選63個國家，今年選67個國家，那麼在我們後面的國家還包括韓國、加拿大，美國跟日本也大概跟我們都一樣排在第5、60名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：所以我個人覺得就是，我們國內應該對自己的國家有信心，對於排碳的努力，雖然我們還沒有達到完美的境界，但是我們一直朝這個方向努力，應該給大家肯定。當然我們在政策方面，事實上CCPI也對我們國家的政策肯定，我們在政策的部分排名第24啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：它是排碳量這一部分把我們排到很後面，因為它的方法根本就是錯誤的嘛！所以大概是這樣子。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯、好，所以說有機會讓部長能夠說明。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：因為我看到這個對我們評價這麼差，我們也有點嚇一跳啦！雖然我們這幾年真的是很努力在法制跟政策方面……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：都已經朝2050年淨零排放的一個目標在努力，所以我們還是持續來努力。"],["薛部長富盛：是，好，謝謝吳委員！"],["吳委員玉琴：謝謝部長、謝謝次長！"],["主席：謝謝，有請林為洲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.66659375,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.543468750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.230968750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.504718750000002,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.586593750000006,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.15159375,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.17846875000001,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.63659375,"end":124.48409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.88909375,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.78159375,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.89784375000002,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.94846875000002,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.86784375000002,"end":156.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.10346875000002,"end":167.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.04346875000002,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.76909375,"end":164.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.50284375,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.11034375,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.34909375,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.39971875,"end":190.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.33096875,"end":186.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.66409375,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.21221875,"end":190.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.35971875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.44409375,"end":191.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.01721875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.91159375,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.45971875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.60721875000002,"end":249.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":253.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.05096875,"end":251.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.62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我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱"},{"start":180.281,"end":198.881,"text":"我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利"},{"start":200.057,"end":208.059,"text":"好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的"},{"start":219.782,"end":219.802,"text":"致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":243.873,"end":268.371,"text":"淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的"},{"start":269.071,"end":286.484,"text":"那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的"},{"start":290.927,"end":312.539,"text":"這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術"},{"start":313.781,"end":333.698,"text":"現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊"},{"start":334.338,"end":352.06,"text":"我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101"},{"start":353.542,"end":383.062,"text":"所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高"},{"start":385.362,"end":408.427,"text":"對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事"},{"start":410.147,"end":433.77,"text":"好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445"},{"start":436.773,"end":444.78,"text":"二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的"},{"start":453.969,"end":454.169,"text":"甲碗淨零"},{"start":485.177,"end":507.2,"text":"跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分"},{"start":507.72,"end":507.86,"text":"中央會議中央會議"},{"start":527.763,"end":544.735,"text":"剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個"},{"start":546.456,"end":564.901,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用"},{"start":565.822,"end":575.532,"text":"是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七"},{"start":584.348,"end":610.104,"text":"或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反"},{"start":610.984,"end":634.256,"text":"舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年"},{"start":637.117,"end":644.486,"text":"結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI"},{"start":658.221,"end":685.196,"text":"雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的"},{"start":686.697,"end":688.919,"text":"新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗"},{"start":711.218,"end":712.059,"text":"國際合作發展基金會主席"},{"start":727.71,"end":728.01,"text":"有請林維洲、林委員"}]}},{"id":"149022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c35e64c62bff11918ca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a032299b491e425fd1a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:34:24 - 09:45:11","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":647,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:11+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:34:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時34分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長跟幾位委員有實地到COP28的現場去看過，確實帶回了很多第一手的資料，所以剛剛洪委員講的，我其實很想說，洪委員講的我們都贊成，我們直接簽連署，請部長直接照做。不過有一些細節的部分，確實還可以請部長再多說明一點，比如說，剛剛說到這個決議的部分，洪委員剛剛提到了，因為這樣的一個會議開下來，在不同的時間當中，也有各種不同的團體、不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送，但是我們必須說，COP 28的結論應該只有一個吧！應該只有一個。我這樣問好了，部長，這次的會議到底有沒有結論？"],["薛部長富盛：有，事實上，他們有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有結論嘛！所以結論是在什麼時候發出？昨天嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午最後一個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不用啦！部長，這個問題很簡單，有沒有結論？有嘛！這個結論是什麼時候發出的？"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午。"],["蘇委員巧慧：昨天嘛！所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：那個都是倡議而已。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都是倡議而已嘛！所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且就是現在我的投影片列出來的，也是你剛剛報告的，昨天發出的這個才是這一次、本屆、今年COP 28的結論，可以這樣說嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想請問你，也請你簡短的回答，你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候，我們有提到國內有人直接在12月5日的時候就已經把某一次的倡議變成COP 28會議的結論，然後大肆宣揚，這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度。我們回到前一頁，部長，我想請你在備詢臺上面再次的說明，在COP 28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼？它的比重還有談論到的狀況是如何？請你簡單說明一下。"],["薛部長富盛：是的，事實上，我在看到國內這個報導之後，我馬上接受媒體的聯訪，我表達得非常清楚，現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想先請問你的是，COP 28的結論當中提到核能的比重有多少，並且它是把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況？"],["薛部長富盛：在倡議裡面是希望2050年……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那是倡議，我現在問的是結論。"],["薛部長富盛：結論沒有啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：結論有啦！結論還是有啦！在結論當中，它是在加快零排放和低排放技術的發展這一項當中，確實有把核能放進去。"],["薛部長富盛：就是（e）的這個部分，有把核能列進去。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們就事論事嘛！它有把核能放進去，在加快零排放及低排放技術的發展這一項當中有列了進去，但是這就表示它把核能列為綠電嗎？其實也不盡然嘛！但是它確實表示這是可能降低碳排的技術之一，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們必須說，其實在整個COP 28的大會結論當中有提到核能，沒有錯，但是其實是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是並不是前面所講的在22個國家提出的倡議當中說我們全世界就是應該要用三倍速的方向來發展核能，完全沒有這件事情嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，完全沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全沒有這件事情嘛！在結論跟倡議不一樣的狀況之下，在結論當中，我們甚至也沒有倡議這樣的內容，你以一個參與過這次會議的部長的身分，應該是可以在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍速的發展，完全沒有這個結論，但是核能在某些國家可以變成再生能源，甚至配合那些國家自己的環境去發展。"],["蘇委員巧慧：配合它的條件嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，每個國家的情況都不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那麼現在就回來看，當COP 28有這樣的結論之後，又必須要適應每一個國家不同的條件，就是你現在所說的這樣嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，你在之前的言論當中有說到，對臺灣來講，核能的發展是一個假議題，你可不可以在這裡再一次表示「核能的發展是假議題」這句話是什麼意思？其實你也有前提啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你也有前提啊！我都還從報紙上幫你剪了這個報導。"],["薛部長富盛：是，必須在三個前提獲得確保之後，臺灣再去發展核電，我相信到那時候大家是可以接受的，那我們並不是說因為沒有把它列入我們未來發展的方向就忽略掉核能，事實上，我們很多學術研究單位持續關注核能的研發技術。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是哪三個條件？"],["薛部長富盛：第一個是確保核能的安全，第二個是核廢料獲得妥善的處理，第三個是有全民共識，我想這三個應該大家是可以接受的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這三個當中最難的其實就是你這次說的核廢未解決，所以談核電是假議題嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼會這樣講的原因是，因為現在在發展核電的國家當中，我們必須說，其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的國家。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這些國家當中，其實很大一個條件，大部分就是地廣人稀，它有一個空間可以去處理核廢，偏偏臺灣的狀況就是地狹人稠，恰恰相反，所以從過去到現在來講，甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政，沒有一個中央政府……"],["薛部長富盛：沒有一個縣市願意去……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前，其實你核電技術再怎麼發展，除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料，或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的，科學檢測它也是安全的，我現在說的是核廢料，還不是核能發電而已，在這樣的狀況下才有空間，臺灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分，對不對？所以部長，我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚，一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼，另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電，而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料，所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣，不停地、不停地對全國來做一個宣達，也就是全國人民要認知到的是，我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是，到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐、有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場，就是這樣子而已嘛！其他的技術都是另外的問題，所以在這樣的狀況下，部長，我再一次地說，其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要，所以這一題如此。","另外一個題目，我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是，您剛剛在在的說，氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的重要結論之一，臺灣也表示我們願意參與，甚至是先行參與這個基金的建置，以至於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向，我想請你簡短地回答，請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助、捐助多少、何時捐、預算來源、想要達到什麼樣的效果？這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋，請你現在解釋。"],["薛部長富盛：我先講一個案例，就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到，今年7月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋4個友邦國家，包括帛琉、諾魯、馬紹爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund，我們臺灣已經提供1,000萬美元去做那個基金，所以同樣我對媒體也講過，假如我們能夠實際參與COP的締約國大會，那臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任，我們來捐，當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高層次……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我想大家都會更想要知道我們這個預算是從哪一個部門、哪一個項目出來，另外，這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼，比如說，你剛剛說我們已經跟這4個國家有過這樣子的一個基金，變成一個團體，那麼請問一下，這次在大會當中，他們對我們的態度如何？"],["薛部長富盛：非常正面，他們在聯合國氣候大會裡面為我們發聲，覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們為什麼當時選擇這4個國家？"],["薛部長富盛：因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重，我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦，他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金，所以事實上反應很正面，我昨天也跟院長、跟外交部……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是嘛！所以這是一個正向的發展，因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣，都是屬於海島型國家。"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都是面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家，而在這些條件的國家當中，臺灣是屬於比較有能力的國家，所以我們率先出來，這等於是Taiwan can help再一次的證明。在這樣的狀況之下，我們果然因此收穫了善意的循環，所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲，我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去。我想部長，因為它確實是動用了國家的預算，所以其他的委員一定會繼續地追問你成效如何，我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用核能的這一題，你念經也好，你就是一樣的東西一直講，一定要說到大家都能夠懂。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都能夠耳熟能詳，大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般，你才有可能得到追隨者嘛！所以在這裡我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：繼續傳達，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝蘇委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。有請吳玉琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.50659375,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.083468750000002,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.27909375,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.71846875000001,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.40971875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.16846875,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.31159375,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.34909375000001,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.45034375,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.55159375000001,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.65284375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.23471875,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.00659375000001,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.69784375,"end":80.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.33409375000001,"end":86.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.84409375,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.96909375,"end":99.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.65096875,"end":125.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.74534375,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.79971875,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.23846875,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.32159375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.96659375000002,"end":171.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.29096875000002,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.96034375000002,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.63596875000002,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.03846875000002,"end":249.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.19034375,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.22409375,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.24096875,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.76409375000003,"end":249.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.79784375000003,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.64159375000003,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.65846875000003,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.55221875,"end":259.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.85534375000003,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.09909375,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.95534375,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.68909375000004,"end":292.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.14784375,"end":278.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.91971875,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.74471875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.44471875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.03534375000004,"end":301.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.11971875,"end":296.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.97534375000004,"end":303.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.15221875000003,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.77846875,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.88784375,"end":324.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":331.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.16909375,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.82909375,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.02721875000003,"end":348.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.13221875000005,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長好 蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做"},{"start":32.918,"end":57.792,"text":"不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧"},{"start":60.453,"end":60.834,"text":"昨天下午最後一個"},{"start":73.257,"end":97.703,"text":"不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長"},{"start":101.104,"end":125.452,"text":"部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜"},{"start":127.089,"end":147.004,"text":"我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪"},{"start":149.005,"end":167.402,"text":"我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊"},{"start":172.767,"end":190.714,"text":"結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個"},{"start":192.274,"end":211.645,"text":"加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但"},{"start":216.127,"end":233.261,"text":"它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對"},{"start":234.062,"end":249.18,"text":"完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧"},{"start":249.881,"end":265.448,"text":"是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它"},{"start":266.208,"end":291.794,"text":"配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思"},{"start":292.794,"end":314.703,"text":"其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能"},{"start":315.183,"end":337.262,"text":"事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題"},{"start":338.423,"end":357.661,"text":"為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反"},{"start":363.166,"end":383.897,"text":"所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料"},{"start":384.597,"end":405.9,"text":"或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼"},{"start":406.44,"end":427.825,"text":"另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐"},{"start":430.026,"end":441.957,"text":"有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以"},{"start":448.342,"end":464.407,"text":"這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制"},{"start":465.467,"end":489.739,"text":"以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋"},{"start":490.479,"end":516.751,"text":"四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會"},{"start":518.452,"end":537.421,"text":"臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來"},{"start":538.041,"end":561.846,"text":"那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家"},{"start":563.866,"end":578.356,"text":"因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部"},{"start":579.176,"end":599.433,"text":"所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛"},{"start":599.873,"end":605.477,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講"},{"start":626.332,"end":641.605,"text":"一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達 謝謝部長好 謝謝蘇偉仁好 謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁 有請吳益勤委員"}]}},{"id":"149021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3d57bfbf4381f71cba8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322b68fd153a217bd045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"09:21:59 - 09:34:14","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":735,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:34:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:21:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（9時22分）請薛部長、李次長還有曾次長。"],["主席：有請行政單位官員們，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好、兩位次長好。這一次COP28經歷了二個禮拜的相關會議，每年都是國際上氣候變遷討論最重要的盛事之一，在這兩個禮拜裡面，當然有很多重要的討論跟波折，一直到昨天，甚至到昨天的深夜，最後的共識其實才做了產出，我想大家其實都有盯到最後一刻。","我想先問一個事情，其實在第一週的談判、在進行第一週會議的時間裡面，我覺得臺灣媒體做了滿多報導的一個事情，就是好像有20幾個國家，他們發出了所謂2050會增三倍核能的倡議，就部長的瞭解，這個事情是這個大會最後的結論跟共識嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，事實上沒有得到共識，因為其他有共識的都將近有200個國家；剛剛洪委員提到的才22個，而且那22個大部分都是本身在核能發展以及產業方面，事實上也算相當成熟的，他們使用的比例很高。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們看到那幾天媒體報出來以後，我們有幾位在野黨的總統候選人都非常非常興奮，甚至直接把它寫成說，這是COP28的共識，我想這並不是一個事實。","接下來我想請問曾次長，我想大家其實已經看到，甚至現在有人把它定名為叫做UAE共識、阿聯酋共識。在阿聯酋共識裡面，我們看到在這一次的談判裡面最清楚跟最具體的一個條文，其實就在於2030年以前要將再生能源裝置量提升三倍，以及每年平均的能源效率提升兩倍。在這一段時間中，這個想法的提出並不只是在最後，包括在一開始會議的時候就有提出來，我想這部分經濟部有沒有做一些相關的幕僚作業跟討論？"],["曾次長文生：謝謝委員。其實除了具體承諾跟能源有關，大概這兩點是最重要的結論，除了這個以外，其實一些具體的作法，包括要讓供應鏈更有韌性等等，很多，還有包括協助開發中國家，這些相關工作其實我們都有把它整理起來。我簡單講兩個事情：第一個，有關於再生能源的部分，我們是要把現在成熟的再生能源能夠加速，也讓它加量，除了這個以外，我們要更多元化的來發展再生能源，這個是臺灣現在政策正在推動的工作，我們也希望能夠把再生能源的裝置儘快地再提升。除此之外，第二個有關於委員提到能效的部分，能效的部分大概簡單來講就是希望全球的年均能源效率改善目標能夠從2%提升到4%，它的計算方法是用初級能源的供給去除以GDP……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，因為時間有限，我可能要打斷……"],["曾次長文生：好，那我簡單講，委員，從2016年到2022年，臺灣初級能源的能源密集度年均改善達4.2%，過去這幾年我們改善的量是比它要求的4%再多一點。"],["洪委員申翰：好，次長，那我就更具體問下面一個問題。很多媒體都關注在這一次COP28的結論之後，像這個最重要的再生能源三倍、能效兩倍，我們能不能夠針對這個結論再做臺灣國內政策加碼的承諾？也就是順應國際上再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍來作為我們2030年再生能源跟能效的目標，這部分我們有沒有辦法順應這個再做加碼的承諾？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，如果它的基礎年是用2022年來做，我們到2030年平均來講，我們的光電目前規劃的量是能夠達到三倍，風電的量也應該會有2022年的裝置容量的三倍，所以在裝置容量的增加上是可以達成目標的。"],["洪委員申翰：所以再生能源三倍是可以承諾的？"],["曾次長文生：是會達成目標的。"],["洪委員申翰：是會達成的？好。"],["曾次長文生：依照我們現在的規劃，除了這個以外，第二個部分有關能源效率，就是初級能源供給的密集度這一塊，我們去年年均的改善是4.2%，今年預估可能會有機會超過6%，就是供給量，我們使用量下降了，GDP成長了，所以我們改善率是還不錯，我們也希望2030年這個改善4 %的目標能夠達成，年均改善4%。"],["洪委員申翰：我更簡單的說，現在我們臺灣的政府也再次承諾了順應目前COP28的共識結論，相較於2022年，再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍這件事情我們是可以承諾的，這沒問題的，對不對？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，我剛才的說明是要講過去這幾年其實我們就順著這個軌跡在做，我們看到的現象……"],["洪委員申翰：也就是說我們就在這個軌跡上面……"],["曾次長文生：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們其實就是在這個方向上面，所以這個承諾是我們可以承諾的事情，這是第一點……"],["曾次長文生：我們希望這個軌跡能夠繼續順利的往上走，就是朝著這一個比率繼續改善。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我覺得這個部分很重要，這當然也代表了國內的政策其實跟國際上是很清楚接軌的，並沒有所謂違逆國際的趨勢跟方向，這是第一點。","下面一個問題，次長，我要問的是，在這次會議裡面我們發現有很多包括歐洲的國家，因為烏俄戰爭的原因，他們其實都花了很多力氣在提升能源效率的部分，當然臺灣看起來，因為我們能源價格的變動沒有人家高，所以我想問次長的是，現在經濟部有沒有對於各國，尤其是對提升能源效率的這些新作法有密切的、高度的掌握？"],["曾次長文生：有關這個部分，委員的建議就是我們來做「前瞻技術追蹤平台」，其實我們平常都在追啦，但是沒有把它集合起來成為一個平台提供給大家參考，我來要求能源署，我們一起來做相關的工作。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，這個問題其實我是想要接下一個問題，但我現在想要請薛部長。部長，我要問你，你覺得我們達成2050淨零排放目標有辦法只靠自己嗎？你覺得可以只靠自己嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：需要國內跨部會跟產業，當然……"],["洪委員申翰：我說的不是環境部，我說的是臺灣自己。"],["薛部長富盛：臺灣自己……"],["洪委員申翰：可以只靠自己就達成嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：應該要跟大家合作。"],["洪委員申翰：需要跟大家合作，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我這次去其實很明顯的知道，我們的淨零排放這件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己，我們需要靠大量的國際合作。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得現在臺灣正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作，足夠我們達成剛才所說2050的淨零排放的工作嗎？我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作。"],["洪委員申翰：需要擴大嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是，絕對要擴大。"],["洪委員申翰：部長說的好。因為我的時間有限，部長，我自己有一個具體的建議，我認為我們臺灣就氣候或者是淨零來說，我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性。我提一件事情，其實我們有很多友邦國家是太平洋的島國，每一次在氣候談判裡面都是非常重要也非常受矚目的所謂小島國家的聯盟，可是我們對於這些友邦，就我自己的觀察，我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的、甚至是更具戰略意義的合作關係，甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲，他們每一次在氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：也是我們最好的合作對象，但我說實話，我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的瞭解跟掌握，我自己這次去完以後，我覺得還不夠高……"],["薛部長富盛：給洪委員報告……"],["洪委員申翰：所以我覺得我們需要更多系統性的戰略合作，這是我想提的第一點建議。"],["薛部長富盛：是。好。"],["洪委員申翰：第二點就是剛剛跟次長講到的問題，我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型，我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術、前瞻的技術，現在到底發展到最前沿的是哪幾個國家、哪幾個企業、哪幾個公司、哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的demo，我們需要知道這件事情，所以我覺得我們應該在國際合作的概念之下，有一個最新的、具前瞻技術的追蹤平臺，這部分可能是經濟部應該可以扮演很多角色，可能不只是能效，包括再生能源、包括氫能，所有只要更新的技術的話，我們都不排斥，我們都必須密切追蹤，甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術，我們也該追蹤，這我都同意。","再來一個事情是，我們的發展機制，包括一些規範性的機制，尤其像我知道，現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM歐盟的碳邊境調整，可是大家現在只關注這個階段，那請問下個階段呢？下個階段其實也在討論中，可是我想就環境部來說，你們對於歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAM目前掌握度到什麼程度？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上不只歐盟，包括我們跟美國、新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸。另外，我針對剛剛洪委員特別講到的中間這個部分，事實上李次長或許也可以講，今年7月份外交部就已經跟4個太平洋友邦……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，對不起，因為時間有限。我自己真的覺得其實在環境部或國發會應該直接來帶領一個國際合作的專案，這個國際合作專案應該包括前瞻技術、包括小島國家的合作，也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步發展，我覺得這件事情可能拼湊起來對於臺灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面，跟國際上面的連結，我覺得我們需要做這個事情。","最後我要提醒一點，我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的，我們要參與聯合國比較困難，我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的國際合作的參與平臺，這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分，我這邊其實有列了一些是在聯合國以外的參與機制，我希望可以請部長再帶回去討論，哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與，而不只是說因為我們不是UN的締約國……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題，其實在其他地方，我們可以有很好的發揮。以上種種建議，部長，可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟龔主委、跟陳院長來討論，這是我們應該做的事情，部長，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。給洪委員報告，昨天下午就已經跟陳院長報告過了，事實上剛剛洪委員講的這個部分都有cover在內。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們希望你們的討論有一個好的結果，那看可不可以在一個月後給我們相關的規劃的訊息，可以嗎？一個月後。"],["薛部長富盛：一個月？可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝洪委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，下一位請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.079093750000002,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.79034375,"end":30.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.27096875,"end":30.304718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.86471875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.42096875,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":60.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.11471875,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.148468750000006,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.915968750000005,"end":69.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.23096875,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.48784375000001,"end":81.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.84846875000001,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.79721875,"end":99.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.50909375,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.35659375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.12846875000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.46159375,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.76096875,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.02221875000001,"end":114.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.07659375,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.91596875,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.29534375,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要跟大家合作啦需要跟大家合作對不對部長我這次其實去很明顯知道我們的淨零排放的這一件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己我們其實靠大量的國際合作下一張所以部長你覺得我們現在臺灣我們正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作足夠我們達成剛才說2050的排放這個淨零排放的這樣子的工作嗎我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎"},{"start":482.287,"end":491.606,"text":"我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作需要擴大嘛部長說了那再往下我想到後面因為我時間上面有一些有限到最後一張"},{"start":493.435,"end":516.129,"text":"前面一張部長我自己有個具體的建議我認為就台灣我們就氣候或者是近鄰來說我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性我提一件事情其實我們有很多的友邦國家在太平洋他們是太平洋的島國其實都是每一次在氣候談判裡面非常重要也非常受阻力的所謂小島國家的聯盟"},{"start":516.849,"end":540.789,"text":"可是我們對於這些我自己也觀察我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的甚至更具戰略意義的這個合作的關係甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲他們每次在這個氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音那也是我們最好合作的對象但我說實話我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的了解跟掌握我自己這次去完以後我覺得還不夠高"},{"start":542.091,"end":549.551,"text":"所以我覺得我們需要跟這系統性的戰略合作這是我想提的第一點的建議第二點就是剛剛跟次長在講到的問題"},{"start":551.192,"end":576.515,"text":"我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術前瞻的技術現在到底發展到最前緣是哪幾個國家哪幾個企業哪幾個公司哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的Demo我們需要知道這件事情所以我覺得我們應該在這個國際合作的概念之下有一個最新的這個前瞻技術的一個追蹤的平臺這部分可能是經濟部其實應該可以扮演很多的角色"},{"start":577.116,"end":597.745,"text":"可能不只是能效包括再生能源包括氫能所有只要跟新的技術有關我們都不排斥我們都必須密切追蹤甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術我們也該追蹤這我都同意再來一個事情是我們的發展的機制包括這些一些規範性的機制尤其像我知道現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM都在討論歐盟的碳邊際調整"},{"start":601.286,"end":613.283,"text":"可是這只是大家現在只關注這個階段阿那請問下個階段呢下個階段其實也在討論中阿可是我想就環境部來說你們對歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAN目前掌握度到什麼程度"},{"start":614.444,"end":637.8,"text":"事實上不只歐盟包括我們跟美國跟新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸另外我針對剛剛洪文特別講到的中間這個部分事實上理事長或許也可以講今年7月份外交部就已經跟四個太平洋友邦部長我這邊就直接對不起因為時間有限我自己覺得我們其實應該在部層或國發會的部分直接應該來帶領一個"},{"start":642.763,"end":655.934,"text":"國際合作的專案這國際合作專案應該包括了前瞻技術包括小島國家的合作也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步的發展我覺得這些事情可能拼湊起來我們對於"},{"start":658.296,"end":672.661,"text":"臺灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面跟國際上面的連結我覺得我們需要一個這個事情最後我要提醒一點我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的我們對聯合國參與比較困難我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的"},{"start":673.341,"end":699.695,"text":"國際合作的參與的平台這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分我這邊其實有列了一些其實是在聯合國以外的參與機制我希望可以請部長再帶回去我們來討論哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與而不只是說因為我們不是E1的締約國所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題其實在其他地方我們可以很好的發揮以上這個建議部長可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟"},{"start":701.616,"end":704.198,"text":"同時與財政部委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":730.204,"end":730.968,"text":"謝宏維 下一位請蘇喬惠 蘇委員"}]}},{"id":"15355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15355","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a04f924cb68922450bad9f551ce5fa921f46d53a332764a53557f311ac99f690a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案」（公務預算部分））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-14","start_time":"2023-12-14T08:30:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121365","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-14T17:18:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":31665,"委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 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環境部部長今天也有所以等到輪到他的時候可能他有會派副部長第三個就是邱國正部長他也因為每一個禮拜四他都會有安排另外的公務所以沒有辦法就是說有請假的我先跟他報告"},{"start":2113.649,"end":2139.751,"text":"那接下來我們就就是總統府我們預算的就是總統府主管的部分那現在是不是我們好 謝謝提問林佳龍 民主黨是什麼公務是普選嗎可不可以講清楚另外環境部部長不來就是不審他去哪裡"},{"start":2143.447,"end":2164.933,"text":"那下午啊 沒關係 那就跳過他是在委員會沒關係 那下午等他吧沒有那回事啊就等他來先把他跳過或者明天他在未還 未還 未還歸未還嘛我這邊時代電影也同意啦沒有那回事啊部長要來那院長 那個民進黨看什麼事吧 講一下"},{"start":2166.869,"end":2191.777,"text":"好來 那不然由副秘書長來報告一下跟曾總召報告那個林秘書長應該有其他的會議但絕對不是輔選 謝謝好吧 那你看吧我還是希望他來我還是希望他來沒有比在立法院尊重由院長協商好吧 跳過 總統跳過院長 我不尊重你"},{"start":2194.185,"end":2195.406,"text":"因為他第一次當部長,他不曉得這個委員會或是這邊審預算"},{"start":2221.639,"end":2229.348,"text":"第一次 第一次 第一次審預算第一次審中央政府總預算總召我來處理 我來處理這個阿連到林佳龍的部分 我覺得說是不是尊重總統府"},{"start":2236.596,"end":2247.479,"text":"因為他們不會直接告訴你說是什麼狀況會議但是他是用消去法不是屬於這個跟政黨選舉的會議他只有五個案啊沒關係那就下午沒關係就等他我不要我就等他"},{"start":2257.633,"end":2283.024,"text":"委員長請院長來猜試一下好了 部長 那個秘書長最好還是到啦好 謝謝他不尊重他不尊重朝野四個黨團公務沒關係 等他那就明天嘛 那就明天好了沒關係 那就明天 等他有空再來"},{"start":2291.048,"end":2306.983,"text":"希望今天早上所有的協商都能夠完成報告院長 其實朝野的氣氛很好不要因為兩個不來真的 這個最基本的預算要結束不來沒關係 我等他明天禮拜六也可以 禮拜天也可以"},{"start":2310.224,"end":2337.75,"text":"我們今天的協商就剩下司法及法治委員會社會福利及衛生環境委員會這個兩個委員會加起來差不多有480案那如果說能夠順利的話今天早上就能夠完全結束了就會讓各部會知道就是說我們希望努力能夠在今天中午之前能夠協商完成來柯總召來柯總召來你講一下講一下來柯總召"},{"start":2339.29,"end":2341.332,"text":"好啦 那就休息啦 休息"},{"start":2367.386,"end":2396.269,"text":"休息休息 休息啦 我們要走囉等一下啦先跳過嘛 先跳過先審其他的阿這麼簡單的事情為什麼不這樣子協調阿東西不要隨便答應人家請假先其他的部會再等著我們先先處理阿小事變大事對啦 反應沒有沒有來 邱黨員應該是環境部先開始嘛"},{"start":2398.41,"end":2401.813,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":2417.807,"end":2427.454,"text":"今天有三頁有請假第一頁是總統府有正式來函來請假第一頁是環境部因為委員會開會要去委員會第三頁是邱國正部長因為他要講所以下午輪"},{"start":2446.488,"end":2467.815,"text":"那個第二輪的部分他三個案沒有辦法來那一樣一樣來第一個總統和秘書長請假各位怎麼樣可以啊這樣過吧這樣過啦等一下有空或者明天後天我會等他對吧真的好啦你不用急不用急"},{"start":2476.295,"end":2476.315,"text":"嘿 這樣"},{"start":2501.872,"end":2508.042,"text":"還沒到的時候我們暫時保留,等他來再來,這樣可以嗎?我現在去通知嘛,他要開會就要停起來嘛"},{"start":2509.369,"end":2511.311,"text":"現在等到委員會結束再過來"},{"start":2535.629,"end":2537.17,"text":"總預算比什麼還重要立法院的專案報告"},{"start":2564.177,"end":2587.313,"text":"時間到環境部的部長就要來了嘛這個我等一下要跟文進行溝通一下那以後就要這樣我們在草仔鄉每一個教訓專案報告我們就不會搞比例原則環境新種新種阿柯你算老金清楚所以等一下環境部到部長一定要過來所以等一下請他過來哪裡有你選副總統還在搞這個東西這是宴會欸對不對對啊"},{"start":2592.449,"end":2596.792,"text":"讓總統府這個副秘書長來說明一下跟院長跟三個黨團的總召報告這個我剛已經聯絡上 四個黨團那個我剛已經聯絡上加農秘書長他現在在總統府內馬上這個從會議中離開過來立法院 謝謝"},{"start":2611.664,"end":2612.144,"text":"副秘書長請國務司館館長先"},{"start":2637.225,"end":2653.423,"text":"這個 院長副秘書長沒有委屈一下 你不要這樣這是立法院啦 院長這樣大家會尊敬你什麼叫那個副秘書長委屈一下 秘書長 什麼 院長好啦好啦 立法院沒有這樣啦好啦好啦好啦 我叫他委屈一下謝謝你的糾正"},{"start":2658.708,"end":2686.796,"text":"那現在我們就先進行國史館主管的預算好不好那我現在去介紹國史館列席的首長我們國史館館長陳以生先生接下來我們就看國史館第六案第六案那屬於通山科目那是不是就通案處理可以嗎"},{"start":2689.019,"end":2711.044,"text":"應該照慣例我們就通案處理欸 那個總召 來 比較快同意嗎 同意啦好 同意第六案 通山科目啦通山就通山啦好 謝謝委員通山科目 所以我們就通案處理好 那就謝謝這樣就可以給館長離開喔國事館館長在大家都看到喔 來"},{"start":2718.649,"end":2721.592,"text":"好 那就謝謝館長啦好 來接下來接下來我們就"},{"start":2737.441,"end":2753.478,"text":"行政院連市行政總署主管的部分那這個主管部分首先我就介紹列席的首長行政院連市行政總署連市長蘇俊榮先生接下來就請大家看第七案"},{"start":2755.664,"end":2755.944,"text":"第12案 國動委員"},{"start":2784.534,"end":2784.834,"text":"委員長我講一下"},{"start":2813.14,"end":2828.22,"text":"沒有意見就好了,不要再執行好不好,沒有時間請問我們人事長,就是說在水運軍巡守這邊,我們不知道人總現在有通過人力的部分嗎?"},{"start":2830.052,"end":2830.593,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2851.161,"end":2851.822,"text":"16案改組結議18案"},{"start":2866.988,"end":2874.914,"text":"改組決議改組決議沒有意見通過19案改組決議沒有意見通過20案屬於通商文通案處理21案改組決議沒有意見通過22案凍結40萬年民眾黨結果有改嗎"},{"start":2888.821,"end":2915.42,"text":"改組結一好不好改組結一比較好啦那二十三案通三科目我們就通案處理二十四案凍結百分之五那沒有意見就通過啦好有意見嗎好沒意見通過好這什麼規劃費用啥改組結一好不好"},{"start":2919.693,"end":2921.513,"text":"二十五案 簡列一百萬年二十五案 簡列二十萬年 明日見通過"},{"start":2945.664,"end":2952.526,"text":"二十六 通商公務 通案處理 二十七案 凍結五十萬年二十八案 主結議 沒有意見通過"},{"start":2974.3,"end":2974.74,"text":"建議文字修正"},{"start":3001.533,"end":3022.345,"text":"倒數第二行會同前序部研擬違法時相關把裁判改成處理機制等可行性﹑並於兩個月內向立法院司法及法制委員會提出書面報告三個月啦 都用三個月了好 那31案主決議 作文就修正 明月間就修正通過 32案主決議"},{"start":3024.721,"end":3025.862,"text":"有一個保留案要不要再考慮一下"},{"start":3052.396,"end":3052.576,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3080.885,"end":3086.186,"text":"接下來立法院主管的部分首先我就介紹列席的首長 立法院秘書長林志蝦先生"},{"start":3110.653,"end":3121.439,"text":"請大家看38案改組結議,沒有意見通過39案改組結議,沒有意見通過40案改組結議,沒有意見通過41案改組結議,沒有意見通過42案改凍結500萬年專案報告改書面報告"},{"start":3135.66,"end":3162.02,"text":"我一定要再一次的強烈表達因為我們語言發展法已經通過一段時間那麼對原住民的相關語言的推動大家都很努力我們也知道但是我們還是覺得政府應該可以做得更快更好尤其是在立法院院長在台上"},{"start":3163.303,"end":3184.885,"text":"我們相關的單位在這幾年我每一次都盡量利用機會用母語不管是國事論壇也好或者是一般的法案討論的時候希望能夠把母語重建起來但是我們看到"},{"start":3187.076,"end":3187.276,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3207.456,"end":3208.377,"text":"他似乎要回應一下"},{"start":3234.861,"end":3254.314,"text":"我有跟那個料委員溝通,同意凍結500,那因為這個是原住民語言要把它翻譯,事實上因為它那個族語很多,所以要翻譯不是那麼容易,因為我們大概有12族到13族的語言,原住民語言"},{"start":3254.774,"end":3280.063,"text":"所以我們如果每一組要直接翻譯事實上我們真的那個人力物力真的是還需要很多加強那我們會盡量努力我們會要向那個主計處那邊主計總處那邊多要一點錢然後來增加這些人員配置所以我們也很謝謝這個樣的提案我們會再努力那所以我們對於這個提案我們原則上我們"},{"start":3280.963,"end":3280.983,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":3303.902,"end":3331.592,"text":"遵照辦理好 召喚通過45案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過46案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過47案主決議做文字修正沒意見就修正通過48案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過49案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過50案測案51案主決議有文字修正好 那50案主決議做文字修正那沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":3333.636,"end":3334.838,"text":"委員長講一下53案因為這個部分就是希望能夠把這個"},{"start":3348.703,"end":3376.494,"text":"接入機制要完成要執行那這邊應該沒問題吧對我們會在大概下一會期我們就會盡量努力來溝通來做執行好謝謝好那就53案主決議作文字修正沒有意見修正通過54案主決議徵召辦理好召喚通過55案撤案56案主決議徵召辦理好召喚通過"},{"start":3377.709,"end":3380.531,"text":"接下來我們就開始處理總統府的預算"},{"start":3408.097,"end":3432.432,"text":"來 我們就來進行進行總統府主管的部分那首先介紹列席的所長我們現在介紹總統府秘書長林佳龍先生好 那現在就請大家看第一案第一案第一案是並委會決議辦理"},{"start":3435.258,"end":3437.119,"text":"主委文字修正主委修正"},{"start":3464.386,"end":3493.036,"text":"好 你們看一下好 請收購好 另外我要請教秘書長其實這是朝野協商預算 院長主持秘書長當過立委嘛對不對 這是立法院最基本的尊重你看能來一叫不到5分鐘就到了還請教 好 第一個"},{"start":3494.994,"end":3519.571,"text":"第二 請教秘書長賴副總統現在是民進黨總統候選人對不對對他的大端機在浮現對不對如果那個有依照規定辦理的話有依照規定辦理的話那表示有一些是不依照規定辦理喔沒有就是要辦理就要依照規定"},{"start":3521.011,"end":3549.685,"text":"因為這個都有公務上面的慣例然後相關的規定順便假借公務自己去補選我想這個公務員嘛 一定是要按照規定來辦理不一定喔好 到現在你看那個會計長應該在這裡啦就是到底大家欸 主席長 我又沒問你 你在打pass等一下請你出去喔"},{"start":3553.564,"end":3580.496,"text":"你放心啦 民主黨很有經驗啦你不用跟他打pass啦不然你先離座一下民主黨 到現在民主黨到現在賴副總統搭專機現在已經負帳多少錢 可不可以講一下今天審議算要講了因為我手頭上沒有這個資料好沒關係 請那個會計長"},{"start":3584.451,"end":3611.707,"text":"花生總召 這個一向是由國防部在做處理 回去我們查一下再跟總召報告要多久總召我報告一下 這個付錢 這個如果有復選的行程 相關的錢都是這個賴副知行處理的啦 不是總統府付的 那今天下班前提供給立法院可不可以對啊 他可不是總統府付的啊 總統府怎麼能付這個錢當然 對啊 所以 但因為都有付啦 所以今天下班前應該提供給大院"},{"start":3614.144,"end":3614.804,"text":"我們開始進行司法院主管的部分"},{"start":3658.229,"end":3672.932,"text":"我來介紹列席的所長室外院秘書長吳山榮先生接下來我們就請大家看57案57案改組決議有沒有意見"},{"start":3675.253,"end":3683.703,"text":"小意見我還是要跟秘書長再說明一下秘書長應該記得我有跟你質詢過土地的問題後來監察院的委員"},{"start":3689.23,"end":3689.39,"text":"主席"},{"start":3712.488,"end":3740.979,"text":"不要變成司法烏龍這樣好嗎好 謝謝好 了解好 那謝謝 來 鄭總長基本上司法院從蔡政府執政以來司法院的表現其實我很多都不認同比如說懲戒法院懲戒法院那個吳院長現在案子進行情況怎麼樣"},{"start":3747.389,"end":3759.475,"text":"現在都有送 懲戒法院 組務法庭在處理外泄 罵一頓你知道嗎監察院 彈劾之後 你們才跟進對不對"},{"start":3764.514,"end":3765.235,"text":"你們現在處理的進度怎麼樣?現在?"},{"start":3788.493,"end":3816.74,"text":"就是都相關的案件那評鑑委員會議評鑑通過之後評鑑過了吧評鑑過了結論是什麼評鑑過了那就會做有建議就是要撤職這樣撤職那這些資料都會都會一併移送職務法庭來來並案審理啦並案審理OK好謝謝"},{"start":3826.806,"end":3829.089,"text":"好,那57案就改組結議,沒有意見通過58案測案那59案動10萬年,沒有意見通過動100萬年,沒有意見通過"},{"start":3843.919,"end":3869.955,"text":"好來60案改組結議沒有意見通過61案改組結議沒有意見通過62案改組結議沒有意見通過63案改組結議沒有意見通過64案凍結50萬年沒有意見就通過65案66案都是通刪我們就通案處理67案喂欸58案不是撤案了嗎蛤58案撤案"},{"start":3873.861,"end":3877.624,"text":"67案改組結議沒有意見通過68案改組結議沒有意見通過69案並委員結議動結束"},{"start":3901.079,"end":3902.26,"text":"蘇懷恩 有沒有意見"},{"start":3930.751,"end":3931.091,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3953.629,"end":3953.769,"text":"這五九案怎麼樣"},{"start":3981.74,"end":4004.865,"text":"現在送了一個59案怎麼樣59案他是凍結一百五萬,他們有溝通過,談好啦好,那現在就看88案88案是台灣高等法院的部分,整列50案,有沒有意見從台灣高等法院在所有案子,都是類似法題的1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11"},{"start":4011.417,"end":4018.802,"text":"每一案通常提12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20案,總是以那一手提,其他沒有意見台灣高等法院的預算來等一下"},{"start":4030.828,"end":4054.974,"text":"總總長"},{"start":4056.252,"end":4078.469,"text":"臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算"},{"start":4085.751,"end":4108.7,"text":"高院太惡劣了司法院人民對他要高度信任公務都不順位啊講話今天講的明天否定明天講的後天否定什麼事情?不要管什麼事啦當然要說什麼事你沒有人跟阿伯說你嘛現在大家都在吃光了請坐沒關係啦這個因為這個是右轉慢慢來右轉"},{"start":4113.786,"end":4130.985,"text":"好了,我的提案理由就是很簡單,這個用費太浪費,我要刪結果他們的人來跟我協調,一塊錢不能刪,只有兩個案子,只有剩二十萬、三十萬,我說我不要刪,我通過表決都沒關係"},{"start":4134.421,"end":4154.614,"text":"這麼傲慢,一塊錢都不能刪,怎麼會這樣?你不要知道從他的理由,昨天也是這樣,今天也是這樣,你背後理由講清楚吧,我知道你背後理由啦沒有,我有提案,我有提案,他不給刪了就這樣啊不是這樣吧?就這樣子,你問啊,不給刪了,一塊錢不給刪了回答一下回答啊,你回答啊回答啊一塊錢不給刪了"},{"start":4159.537,"end":4165.442,"text":"其實我們不給刪也是有理由的因為我們都是清潔物品汽油然後紙張、碳粉、辦公室維修還有人民重要的油資還有現在很重要的治安服務"},{"start":4184.591,"end":4185.272,"text":"主席"},{"start":4201.946,"end":4221.893,"text":"我們的原則也是不能爭裂的其實我們的油脂跟我們的碳粉到年底真的都是在奢欠所以我們才會跟委員說拜託不要殺真的是不能殺拜託嘛 你有拜託嘛 對不對你們是用拜託的方式嗎當然啊不是用命令的方式吧怎麼可以命令呢拜託都給我殺"},{"start":4225.235,"end":4246.836,"text":"我拜託他給我刪因為我覺得他浪費太多我拜託他給我刪幫我拜託一下好不好對啦這樣啦我們講清楚啦我們大家是草野祥業老委員嘛你今天很多部會都是你一個人堅持所以你的保安至少"},{"start":4248.115,"end":4271.3,"text":"一半以上,六七十案,包括經濟部、交通部等等都有那每一個都很尊重你昨天也請他們跟你溝通,包括經濟部以及交通部我們還是在這裡要解決啦那我想各部會沒有這種滿漢感受說一塊錢都不能刪當然是拜託"},{"start":4272.86,"end":4295.772,"text":"只是沒有跪求而已啊 拜託 都要去拜託嘛他說 我也算給你拜託這演技的問題大家都很清楚我不知道澳門的高院 這麼多澳門 一塊錢都不給我刪沒有啦 他是給你拜託啦我沒有拜託給我刪啦 因為我覺得浪費啊 我是看盡人民荷包啊那換我講話嘛對不對 你有說 你說這麼多話我還沒說完"},{"start":4301.665,"end":4320.799,"text":"所以這大家是互相的你這麼資深的委員總預算一定要趕快處理今天要第二輪了所以大家合意來談就合意來談有些部分本來就有通商現在政府聽起來連貪腐都要設限我是覺得這個國家有問題我應該這麼call"},{"start":4326.683,"end":4352.939,"text":"這個司法機關的探魂還要奢簽,要點兩顆金,金來金去,這又不是,這個岳國大不應該如此運作那主席長以後這個,你們的一三四獨立編列,你自己編的嘛司法院一三四你們自己編的,你自己編的要編好一點嘛通常司法院一三四很少人家參與,而且你自己編的你編阿公兩趟我們都不夠,你這個怎麼編的我都,你們自己也要檢討嘛"},{"start":4355.023,"end":4377.735,"text":"你通常騙來我們都沒有傳過來行政院都最近都沒有加出意見今天加出意見我們還是會基本上還是談戶的司法院因為司法獨立我們是非常尊重但是這裡面後面也有一個案子你是不是為了那個為了你的選區那個"},{"start":4381.715,"end":4382.335,"text":"事先答應人家後來做不到"},{"start":4402.99,"end":4404.971,"text":"這國有公共主力 國有公共建築物 怎麼可以無償提供給李一平來這邊 他們有活動停車場"},{"start":4423.546,"end":4424.447,"text":"在這裡不要講這個"},{"start":4445.64,"end":4453.127,"text":"如果你要講這個 那我就告訴你 白紙黑紙都有 他們吞回去 這樣子是司法院嗎 你告訴我 有啊 我就有啊"},{"start":4472.179,"end":4473.5,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4500.334,"end":4500.654,"text":"主席"},{"start":4515.514,"end":4518.615,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分：完整會議"},{"start":4530.16,"end":4531.861,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4548.769,"end":4549.309,"text":"在前面"},{"start":4567.819,"end":4568.219,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4597.452,"end":4598.333,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4854.761,"end":4869.409,"text":"我講就好了,大家不要再講了,講太多了我講這樣好不好,他講21案啦,88案到108案,是不是21案?21案嘛,課長知道大家都不要再講了,我來講,大家同意就先這樣"},{"start":4881.901,"end":4909.738,"text":"好來88案到108案一共21案21案有4個案已經溝通測案那賴委員說這沒關係照常測案再來有8個案屬於通刪還是通案處理所以這要扣掉剩下9個案9個案那這個賴委員希望有2個案能夠有刪一些那7個案保留"},{"start":4912.83,"end":4913.551,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4930.034,"end":4944.046,"text":"好 那就不要再說了 好不好 就這樣等一下 我要了解是哪個案可以不 三是哪一個案嘛 兩個 哪兩個案三 來我們現在就討論 其他的就照這樣那現在要三的兩個 走下去來一個一個來 好不好好 來 88案"},{"start":4954.795,"end":4962.639,"text":"整理50萬年徵照辦理89案整理1000萬年徵照辦理那90案跟91案那賴委員已經同意撤案"},{"start":4983.28,"end":4995.65,"text":"測案沒有他是測案測案九十二案檢列三十萬年九十二案保留九十三案通商案我們就通案處理九十四案檢列三十萬年"},{"start":5013.135,"end":5031.015,"text":"編少一點啦 通信費用啊 保留啊 保留齁 少一點嘛 這有錢公共就好了啦好來 每一部會的通信費你都這樣搞 你這樣造成幾百個案子 都是你拜託你不要在裡面說閒話 起個案子算什麼啦 拜託"},{"start":5034.929,"end":5035.069,"text":"95案檢列22年"},{"start":5046.069,"end":5057.131,"text":"來來來 主席啊我再講一下 老柯一直說 你說一直扣帽子你拜託請你睜大眼睛看我每一個案子只有三 三十萬 二十萬 二十萬他一毛錢都不給我三 什麼東西啊二十萬 你在這裡一直講所以民法保留 保留啦二十萬三十萬不給我三"},{"start":5070.904,"end":5084.733,"text":"這基本上 司法院在編列預算的時候有問題主席長 你有上過他們嗎對啊行政院基本上都尊重司法院的預算"},{"start":5086.377,"end":5105.732,"text":"那顯然 民主黨你怎麼讓這種預算送出來連一個項目 三個十萬二十萬都沒辦法刪一定要照案通過那這顯然 核實編列啦沒差 沒那麼核實啦真的 這顯示司法院在預算編列上"},{"start":5107.694,"end":5134.73,"text":"沒有彈性而且有問題為什麼呢 因為院長講了連個10萬20萬都刪了之後會影響他業務的發展那不就說來抓舉手通過所以 主席長你評論一下這有沒有問題 你敢不敢講我尊重兩個兩院長因為五院平行按麥克風你坐那麼久平行我不能夠表示意見"},{"start":5135.716,"end":5161.041,"text":"我現在請你用專心實踐去教學以前好不好用專心實踐 你的看法呢 有沒有看過我們不要理你 有沒有看過沒有 我認為他們都核實編列了核實到這種程度 太核實了 還在說話我還是 他們是核實編列的不然我來講一下好不好我看 照孟德斯丘的三權分立民主政治"},{"start":5162.679,"end":5189.233,"text":"三百多年在英國的發展三百多年國會至上國會至上民主政治是國會至上審判獨立是司法權我們不會去干預司法獨立是指審判獨立啊我們沒有干預你們的這個審判所以大家不要用司法院好像是說我是獨立的好像就我跟你講在民主政治"},{"start":5190.909,"end":5194.783,"text":"國會代表民意 人民作主"},{"start":5196.175,"end":5224.353,"text":"所以國會是代表民意 你們在民意之前要謙卑 要記得我是覺得今天我是有感而發啦 阿我沒講這個工作就不行我們的國家 因為華人文化圈沒有民主政治嘛阿都受到黨國教育 都比較差 三綱五常 儒家三綱五常 軍委之綱 副委之綱 副委之綱會有奧慢 所以一定要記得 大家互相尊重"},{"start":5225.492,"end":5241.404,"text":"沒有說不能刪的啦法院院長還有預算不能刪預算錢是國會的錢啊審判我們不會去干預你但是在審判在預算啦還是要尊重立法院沒有說所謂什麼不能刪哪有不能刪"},{"start":5246.723,"end":5272.367,"text":"我還是要表示一下沒有所謂不能刪只是他說拜託不要刪太多這樣而已前面那講得很好除了黨國教育要不接受他有黨我知道包括民進黨但是他前面講得很好我要跟他敬禮"},{"start":5273.592,"end":5280.777,"text":"真的阿?你們要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?"},{"start":5302.455,"end":5322.376,"text":"我對剛剛委員長的這一席話我百分之百支持本來就是啊 這第一個第二個 也就是我剛剛 剛開始的時候為什麼請林佳龍 秘長來列席為什麼請 環境部的部長來列席本來就是啊"},{"start":5323.888,"end":5349.995,"text":"我剛剛還沒有禮貌糾正院長說對這個總統府副民長說讓他委屈了一點都不委屈怎麼委屈來請他先離屈請民長來哪會哪會委屈所以院長剛剛那句話基本上我真的全力支持也謝謝院長你是全民的"},{"start":5351.325,"end":5374.933,"text":"立法院長,謝謝好,謝謝,來,劉委員曾銘忠總召當講的部分,我在部分贊成啦那一開始,是這樣子啦當然院長講的話我們都充分尊重那一開始的時候不管你提到總統府秘書長或是環境部那我們覺得這樣不妥當所以我們也是在曾總召的建議之下趕快去進行協商那你也看到兩位首長都到了嘛"},{"start":5375.333,"end":5401.852,"text":"表示是尊重我們在立法院尤其是行使中央政府總預算的這個草野協商那有關於司法院的這個預算的部分因為預算就是歸立法院來審查所以剛剛曾明中一直說主計長要表示意見我想他們也都是互相尊重那我們也會看重我們自己的審查權當然呢他們提出來的預算多還是寡最後的決定還是在立法院但是我是要回歸到第二項就是剛剛那個賴氏堡委員所提的部分"},{"start":5402.672,"end":5426.721,"text":"那既然院長已經裁決有通刪的項目跟測案的項目那我們只是把go through一遍那所以我會建議就是是不是從94案開始往下來走那我剛剛有跟賴思寶委員建議就是說如果他放在一般行政下面的這樣一個大科目的話下面的項目結就不要去特別去堅持因為你所提到要刪的部分包括物品、租金、房屋建築、養護費"},{"start":5427.841,"end":5429.622,"text":"我希望大家耐心替我把話講完院長剛剛講那些話 大家都在怕破啊"},{"start":5452.904,"end":5457.151,"text":"除了你那個黨國 當然包括民進黨黨國 這樣就統一百分了 這個從94年開始"},{"start":5464.11,"end":5482.046,"text":"我刪什麼 30萬過來20萬過來20萬 一毛錢都不給我刪然後 所以你一定要給他過那我現在只剩7個案要保留不給我保留可以 通通給我刪 就該管了然後科目自行調整"},{"start":5483.787,"end":5495.194,"text":"主席 沒你這個問題 司法院你查 查不出這個幾十萬 我打死也不相信把頭看下來給我 我不相信我講一下來 我講一下好不好不是 他們不自行調整的條項他們不自行調整的條項"},{"start":5509.172,"end":5526.286,"text":"禮委員你繼續說 我的意思是說今天要處理可以按照我的意思我刪多少就刪多少因為沒有多少錢加起來大概一百多萬而已統統科目自行調整打這麼開 如果這樣不可以那只好去表決就這樣了好來 總統長"},{"start":5533.881,"end":5534.001,"text":"賴慈寶委員"},{"start":5553.649,"end":5577.336,"text":"就是連文書的費用都沒有辦法的這個情況下 是不是能夠讓他們尊潔調整那畢竟我們也是要尊重委員在立法院預算的審議權嘛好 來 那就總統要說幾句來我贊成的因為司法院司法院會議長今年113年度編多少總預算多少277億對啊 277億你那100"},{"start":5585.821,"end":5585.981,"text":"主席"},{"start":5609.571,"end":5630.769,"text":"跟國務委員報告一下 行政院都按照憲法徵修條文的規定都有提供互助意見 謝謝對司法院的預算都有提供互助意見等一下 你現在是請你聰明不是 他太聰明了 他能夠講只有講到這裡而已可以不可以啦"},{"start":5637.915,"end":5665.342,"text":"我只能夠按照憲法去做因為我行政院只能代表我代表行政院說我按照憲法徵修條文提老附助意見我們都有提每年都有提附助意見謝謝主席長就在那裡有時候要發揮功能你現在就不要用主席長的身份我從預算上請教你你現在不是主席長喔可不可以"},{"start":5666.496,"end":5689.107,"text":"可不可以 我一直問你嘛 因為現在涉及到問題 因為他的科目之間調整只有在他那個高院可以調嗎 會不會總預算裡面不能 他的如果是 他們是一個獨立的單位預算是不能夠調的如果是單位預算 不同的機關不能調高等委員 今年被錄到"},{"start":5691.235,"end":5705.648,"text":"報告委員那個整個高院是21億多所以說我們就建議剛剛講100萬是不是就讓我們在100萬範圍內在一般行政鄉下一般行政鄉下可以啦一般行政鄉下17億"},{"start":5711.16,"end":5712.381,"text":"三百一十五億對不對"},{"start":5735.396,"end":5735.416,"text":"因為這齁"},{"start":5757.148,"end":5784.162,"text":"因為你們不要生氣,這跟我們說沒關係因為如果我們一開始客戶自營調整,我們的思維就會比較寬廣一點嘛因為你這個是指令山的啊既然要客戶自營調整的話,客戶自營調整在臺高院17億裡面你算得多少在客戶自營調整的話,當然這個好辦啦我們講個總數啦,這樣比較快啦那台幣一百,台幣八五那些公共的"},{"start":5784.921,"end":5805.634,"text":"立委員 立委員 剛才說的17億來的齁 你聽我說人事費用是16億捏 他們真正能夠使用的這些行政費用只剩下1億左右 啊你就殺到280 太多了啦稍微縮小一點 稍微縮小一點沒有啦 就 這個案就先保留嘛 你不用浪費一個時間嘛沒有啦 沒有啦"},{"start":5813.055,"end":5815.759,"text":"剛剛老柯講說在一般行政向下那個又太窄"},{"start":5830.714,"end":5839.161,"text":"在高院的 單位預算下 調整因為是41跟後面的第14頁42是兩個不同的科目因為在預算法的規定要在同一個科目下要哪一個不同科目"},{"start":5858.015,"end":5867.665,"text":"好了,那這樣就﹐90案保留﹐95案保留﹐96案保留﹐97、98通案處理﹐99通案處理"},{"start":5873.018,"end":5884.124,"text":"好來 過來109保留101保留102通商 通案處理103測案104保留105通商 通案處理106測案107通商 通案處理108通商 通案處理 就這樣好 先這樣啦最後原因還是要解決喔好 謝謝 謝謝好啦 接下來考試驗"},{"start":5914.218,"end":5916.846,"text":"好了好了好了好了 休息一下 休息一會兒"},{"start":5925.952,"end":5926.072,"text":"主席"},{"start":6184.451,"end":6212.432,"text":"好 那我們就繼續這個時代力量黨團他有講他去那個委員會這個環保委員那他有講說對這裡沒有意見就跟他報告一下那現在我們就來進行考試院主管的部分那首先介紹列席的首長考試院秘書長劉建新先生"},{"start":6221.391,"end":6228.992,"text":"好,那我們就請大家看109案改組結議,沒有意見就通過110,並委員會結議辦理,提書面報告,沒有意見通過11,改組結議,沒有意見通過12,改組結議,沒有意見通過13,動10萬元,沒有意見通過14,動5萬元,沒有意見通過15,組結議有意見,來"},{"start":6248.116,"end":6269.647,"text":"114的部分我們同意但是想這邊就教一下那個祕書長 劉祕書長因為我們這邊有接貨到陳情就是說在11月6號的晚上大概9點的時候您這邊有來到這個財團法人平台基金會大樓就是大概是中正區中華路那個路段當時你有去參加一個會議那這邊有"},{"start":6272.728,"end":6295.686,"text":"文化部長史哲還有賴清德總統候選人競選辦公室的總幹事潘孟安先生他們有提供一些照片就是你們在這邊出入的一個照片因為現在目前面臨大選我們認為行政單位應該要恪守相關的行政中立那不曉得你這個會議討論的內容是什麼"},{"start":6298.528,"end":6298.708,"text":"鄭麗君董事長"},{"start":6313.025,"end":6332.25,"text":"鄭麗君董事長,討論什麼事情?公務還是私務?因為清平台這邊過去啦,就是過去這麼多年其實他們那邊都有做一些政策的討論那我跟鄭董事長因為也是私交的朋友所以那天是剛好過去找他,做一些所以沒有跟"},{"start":6332.99,"end":6347.169,"text":"潘孟安總幹事見面沒有見面那12月4號也在這邊同時出現第二次那這次還有包含這個我們的這個賴清德競選總部的主委姚立民那這個會議是跟他們一起開的嗎12月4號當天沒有"},{"start":6349.48,"end":6351.682,"text":"公務還是私務?所以你是拜訪誰?是在幫賴清德或王總準備辯論嗎?"},{"start":6365.097,"end":6392.863,"text":"我希望齁現在大選期間你們還是要注意一下你們的這些行政中立的一個界線不要讓外界有太多的這樣子的一個負面的社會觀感那我希望這個部分你們是不是請這個同仁來我們辦公室跟我們說明一下相關的一個內容好不好我已經說明了都說不出來了還要再說明嗎說明一下好不好因為兩個時間非常的接近齁然後而且"},{"start":6394.356,"end":6421.044,"text":"這個潘孟安總幹事跟我們這個姚立民主委其實也都在那個時間在各道出入那我們合理的懷疑你們是在進行相關競選的一個活動跟相關的政見的辯論的一個商討我們不需要有這樣的事情發生當然您現在的說法我們都尊重可是我想本於這個事實的釐清也要對社會大眾示意我希望你們還是說明清楚好不好OK好謝謝長長"},{"start":6423.786,"end":6447.913,"text":"秘書長你現在職稱是什麼我現在是考試院秘書長下班後呢下班後我還是考試院秘書長你最好不要被發現第三次你已經去跟他見過幾次面本來就跟這些 有一些朋友會做一些這個意見的討論"},{"start":6449.707,"end":6476.517,"text":"合適嗎因為其實就有很多時候這個也有跟一些相關的政策跟我們相關政策是會做一些意見交換那同時因為有時候是拜訪朋友交換選舉意見合適嗎我們不會交換選舉意見民主黨最好不要啦好不好這樣的消息出來對選情沒有幫助啦"},{"start":6478.993,"end":6479.733,"text":"116案主決議 117案主決議 有沒有意見"},{"start":6501.331,"end":6529.776,"text":"好那就照案通過118案主決議好照案通過119案主決議好照案通過接下來就是考選部那我介紹一下考選部部長許書強先生好那我們就進行120案改主決議沒有意見通過121案改主決議沒有意見通過122案主決議有沒有意見好那就照案通過"},{"start":6530.714,"end":6539.99,"text":"那接下來就全序部部長周作宏先生好那我請大家看123案改組決議沒有見通過124案凍結50萬年那"},{"start":6545.363,"end":6572.372,"text":"是不是可以見請凍結十萬元然後三個月書面報告那本案我們有瞭解陳晚會委員的關心是有關於鄉鎮市民代表會祕書的植物列等那我們已經在檢討當中我們可以在三個月內做一個建議陳委員那邊是比較在乎是什麼時候可以做成決定這個案子我們保留好不好陳晚會委員他堅持保留"},{"start":6572.892,"end":6573.912,"text":"124 保留125 改組結議126 撤案127 組結議128 組結議129 組結議129 組結議"},{"start":6602.145,"end":6604.086,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6622.267,"end":6626.809,"text":"公務延年保障及培訓委員會．主任委員堅證國家文官學院院長．培芝女士"},{"start":6642.95,"end":6644.471,"text":"公務連連退休府系基金管理局局長陳明賢先生"},{"start":6673.444,"end":6690.555,"text":"來 請大家看135案改組結議 沒有意見通過136組結議 作文就修正 沒有意見就修正通過好 那就考試院就到此告一段落 謝謝大家"},{"start":6715.892,"end":6716.172,"text":"現在我們進行"},{"start":6724.821,"end":6725.362,"text":"137、138、139都是通商"},{"start":6747.68,"end":6753.109,"text":"跟 抱歉抱歉 138 139 測案那我們就 測案就不討論啦齁137 蛤 來 有意見"},{"start":6756.314,"end":6763.758,"text":"137案是通案137就通案處理請看140案140案凍結1000萬年這個可不可以併委員會決議 委員會已經處理過了可不可以併委員會決議140併委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過141 併委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":6786.172,"end":6801.22,"text":"那142通3我們就通案處理143檢列1萬年143是院長的特別費我們建議保留啦好保留144改組結議沒有見通過145凍結10萬年沒有見通過都談好了嘛凍結10萬好不好"},{"start":6815.681,"end":6816.382,"text":"146 監裁院人權委員會最近報宅經常"},{"start":6836.88,"end":6862.509,"text":"對於原住民的一些評論也好﹖或是做法也好﹖讓原住民﹖我個人看﹖非常不愉快﹖比如說﹖之前有一個叫樓小雲的事件﹖後來大學校長又失言說﹖400年前臺灣是一個一不必體的社會﹖明明是在講原住民﹖亞美族青年的穿著服裝﹖"},{"start":6864.029,"end":6881.072,"text":"後來也被媒體不當的報導﹖一直到今年4月29日﹖臺中一中西環的字眼﹖臺大也發生了這樣的事情﹖所以我們覺得監察院的人權委員會在這個部分沒有什麼作為﹖真的沒有什麼作為﹖"},{"start":6883.518,"end":6893.552,"text":"人權委員會近年都有在努力 他們也給我們做一些說明 但是我覺得今天在審預算的時候"},{"start":6896.755,"end":6919.212,"text":"那麼多的事情關於原住民的事居然都提不出相關的資料了人權會已經成立了三年多到現在為止真的是沒有什麼作為所以我本來要刪他們的預算但是又覺得不給他們經費又不曉得他們就變成沒有事做那麼關於原住民的人權的重視"},{"start":6920.509,"end":6947.071,"text":"我只要在這裡再一次的表達讓大家重視那麼主政的人權會應該要透過這次我所提出的這些意見以後趕緊的急起直追把原住民的相關人權能夠看到你們真的是有在努力而且也有一些作為"},{"start":6950.704,"end":6952.305,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6972.014,"end":6978.057,"text":"市長,我講一下好不好,拜託一下,是病委會的凍結,然後再改一個組結議好,改組結議啦凍結的部分,病委會是決議辦理"},{"start":6984.537,"end":6984.557,"text":"凍結並委員會"},{"start":7015.477,"end":7016.378,"text":"1462 凍結束並委員會結辦禮 文注修正"},{"start":7040.759,"end":7041.74,"text":"委員會也有決議的 是不是並委員會處理"},{"start":7067.964,"end":7069.044,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":7585.114,"end":7608.34,"text":"好來我們現在就繼續開會那進行法務部及所屬主管收住部分那我現在來介紹一下列席的所長首先介紹法務部部長蔡清祥先生接下來廉政署署長莊榮松先生接下來剿政署署長周輝煌先生"},{"start":7609.844,"end":7634.165,"text":"接下來最高檢察署司機官長吳怡銘先生再來是台灣高等檢察署司機官長陳玉萍女士再來是台灣新北地方檢察署主任檢察官江宥辰先生還有調查局局長王俊麗先生好介紹完畢那我們請大家"},{"start":7635.911,"end":7649.403,"text":"現在請大家看154案改為組結議 沒有意見通過155案動50萬年 沒有意見通過156案改組結議 沒有意見通過157案改組結議 沒有意見通過158案改156改組結議好不好156改啦158案改組結議 沒有意見通過156 157"},{"start":7663.985,"end":7664.585,"text":"159動50萬年沒有見通過"},{"start":7674.07,"end":7684.314,"text":"1600改組決議沒有見通過161改組決議沒有見通過162改組決議沒有見通過163改組決議沒有見通過164改組決議沒有見通過165改組決議沒有見通過166改組決議沒有見通過167改組決議沒有見通過168並委員會決議辦理提出報告沒有見通過"},{"start":7701.761,"end":7710.487,"text":"169改組結議沒有意見通過170組結議有沒有意見沒有意見就召喚通過171組結議沒有意見召喚通過172組結議有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過173組結議有沒有意見沒有召喚通過174組結議"},{"start":7727.366,"end":7727.386,"text":"179 測案"},{"start":7745.441,"end":7760.117,"text":"一八零組結一有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過一八一組結一有沒有意見沒有好那召喚通過一八二組結一有沒有意見沒有好召喚通過一八三組結一有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":7761.237,"end":7780.213,"text":"184組結議185組結議186組結議187組結議188組結議"},{"start":7780.82,"end":7799.544,"text":"沒有沒有意見 召喚通過189 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過190 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過191 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過接下來就192 改主決議沒有意見通過193 改主決議沒有意見通過194 改主決議沒有意見通過195 並委員會決議辦理提書面報告沒有意見通過196 改主決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":7810.527,"end":7816.835,"text":"197 測案198 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過199 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過200 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過201"},{"start":7827.912,"end":7835.475,"text":"改組決議沒有意見通過202通商通案處理203並委員結辦禮題書面報告沒有意見通過204通商科目通案處理205組決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見就照案通過206動10萬年沒有意見通過"},{"start":7851.662,"end":7874.753,"text":"207改組協議那沒有建議通過208改組協議沒有建議通過209改組協議沒有建議通過210改組協議沒有建議通過211凍結一千萬元都比較多一點喔等一下沒有改組協議喔沒有沒有沒有改組協議要不要改不改要不要說明一下那暗網那個現在狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":7876.432,"end":7898.204,"text":"因為調查局在懲辦當中,是不是請調查局說明一下?請調查局說明一下我們跟邱委員報告,有關於通信監察的建置跟實施的情況基本上我們這個通信監察的這個網路的設備,它是實體隔離的,它跟外部其實是沒有聯繫的"},{"start":7899.565,"end":7923.753,"text":"那我們的同仁因為我們是負責執行端那所有的申請單位他都是向法院來請票不管說是刑事案件或者是國安案件我們根據法院核的那個票然後來key入這個相關的號碼那目前情況是這樣那有關於這個網路上出現這一個部分我請我們的那個自動安全處長他是專家我請他來做說明"},{"start":7924.133,"end":7933.61,"text":"你們相關的行政程序我們都了解但事實上那些資料已經外流了那留在網路上的資訊據我們這邊了解基本上有七到八成都是真實的"},{"start":7934.42,"end":7953.385,"text":"那現在最擔心就是說官方的這些相關監聽的資料還有這些重要政要的個人資料外洩因為我想各自的保護是現在治安及國安最重要的原則之一現在為什麼詐騙會那麼猖獗變民怨之首就是這些資料真真假假"},{"start":7954.285,"end":7973.927,"text":"7分真3分假或是5分真5分假才會造成這個詐騙成功率非常高的一個問題那現在這個問題已經嚴重到到我們的行政單位甚至是勤制單位的監聽的資訊都已經外流了那相關預防的措施你現在要講的都是你們現在在做的事情相關預防的措施跟後面"},{"start":7974.688,"end":7997.97,"text":"的這個查處還有源頭的管理跟追蹤這個要怎麼樣的防止這才是我們現在關心的好不好我希望針對這個部分說明那你們至於最高檢或是地協署這邊在偵辦的這個偵查不公開的部分我們都尊重但是目前的這個現況要怎麼樣去做防止包含你們要跟速發部還是說相關的法治單位怎麼樣去合作怎麼樣讓"},{"start":8000.213,"end":8006.084,"text":"讓國人能夠針對這件事情給他們一個回應跟說明我覺得這個是我們現在比較關心的"},{"start":8016.238,"end":8036.357,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好我想這個事件我們大家都不樂見那在這邊特別跟委員說明一下就是說其實在這件事情發生第一時間那我們具體接到相關的訊息以後當然我們第一時間要做什麼我們第一時間就要看這個東西的內容然後我們來判斷這到底是怎麼一回事然後我們必須對社會對媒體做"},{"start":8039.159,"end":8062.332,"text":"迅速的回應我覺得這是我們必須應該做的事情那今天發生這個事情大概基本上我們從我們我們這個執法單位的角度來看大概就只有兩種可能第一個可能就是所謂的假訊息的散佈第二個可能就是所謂的這個我們的內部系統遭到害侵剛剛委員也特別提到這一點我想我就這兩部分來說明第一個"},{"start":8063.112,"end":8085.5,"text":"那我們在第一時間為什麼大家為什麼覺得很奇怪說我們判斷它是一個認知作戰我想在認知作戰裡面通常我們在講假訊息的時候那通常假訊息大家都耳熟能詳就是惡假害然後違反相關的法律但是我們當我們談到這個所謂認知作戰的程式的時候它又不一樣它的訊息出來它可能會造成我們簡單問一下今天是審議"},{"start":8087.381,"end":8088.301,"text":"立法院黨團協商：立法院黨團協商．"},{"start":8110.666,"end":8128.647,"text":"任職作戰的態樣是很相近的第二個他這個散播的操作手法我們在講任職作戰的時候他們通常都是在在境外拋出一個假訊息然後在國內進行發酵可能有好幾層次的一個傳播那他選擇的國內的是選擇了爆料公社"},{"start":8129.647,"end":8155.06,"text":"報料公社為什麼沒有繼續的在所謂的訊息農場在所謂的社群平台繼續散佈因為它已經引起了媒體的重視所以它已經達到了它的效果所以其實我們後續觀察它在第二天的時候在暗網的相關資料就已經下架了就已經下架了我想這個是可以好 針對跟預算有關的就好簡單歐要今天不是執行啦好 了解謝謝院長"},{"start":8157.061,"end":8179.066,"text":"那我主要還是要最後說明一點我們執行通訊監察我們是依照通行監察保障法那這個法律在我們的執行單位來講的話其實我們接到的是法院的這個監察書監察書上面的資料其實很多在個資上面都具識別化"},{"start":8179.326,"end":8179.606,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8198.259,"end":8222.375,"text":"有關於這個資安但任何人都不能保證說是絕對百分之百那雖然說這個事情我們基本上我們說明說是一個認知作戰但是就資安的部分我們仍然在做這個不斷的在做清點在做檢討那這個部分是我們要來強化這個資安的部分我就這個部分委員關心的在特別在補充說明"},{"start":8225.257,"end":8228.158,"text":"法治委員會到此告一段落"},{"start":8255.441,"end":8283.896,"text":"好接下來請慧環慧環是哪一個部會先來來慧環哪一個部會誰先來三個部會資料給我就會宣布一下慧環是哪一個部會先到勞動部勞動部勞動部先到好來"},{"start":8286.344,"end":8288.305,"text":"勞動部、衛生、福利、環境部"},{"start":8311.754,"end":8312.216,"text":"反正部長還要過來這邊換嗎?"},{"start":8326.104,"end":8326.884,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8410.97,"end":8433.776,"text":"各位先進我們就繼續開會啦齁好繼續開會那現在進行勞動部主管那介紹列席的所長勞動部部長許平春女士好來現在請大家看第一案第一案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":8435.936,"end":8458.323,"text":"第2案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第3案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第4案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第5案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第6案 改組決議 沒有見通過第7案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第8案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第9案 改組決議 沒有見通過"},{"start":8460.183,"end":8487.946,"text":"第十案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十一案改組結議沒有見通過第十二案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十三案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十四案改組結議沒有見通過第十五案改組結議沒有見通過第十六案改組結議沒有見通過第十七案改組結議沒有見通過院長講一下好來十七案好謝謝就是勞動部"},{"start":8489.827,"end":8513.989,"text":"要請部長就是社會上現在有這樣的訴求跟聲音不外是對於現行勞保年金的不信任還有對勞退心智不滿意那最重要就是對於老年退休保障雙重不足的擔憂那臺灣勞工普遍低薪進而影響退休金的勤勉"},{"start":8515.462,"end":8523.772,"text":"未來即將面對繳多、少領、延後退的勞保年金的改革方案甚至還要繼續接受僅有6%的僱主的提撥率"},{"start":8529.932,"end":8552.043,"text":"一個月即便領三、四萬的勞工翻一下他們個人的賬戶的提撥累計那金額實在是少的可以所以無論是年金改革或是勞退的心智政府始終只敢要求勞工付出更多連政府撥補都是出自於人民的納稅錢"},{"start":8553.984,"end":8581.578,"text":"卻不敢要求企業老闆負擔更多所以在這裡先求有再求好我們請勞動部一定要注意注重我們勞工的心聲那這一次雖然改組決議但是我們還是要強調勞動部應該針對提高僱主提撥勞退比例議案競訴邀集相關的代表召開公聽會收集相關意見"},{"start":8584.02,"end":8601.091,"text":"請務必如期提供 請部長回應一下謝謝委員的建議 那個部分有關勞工的權益 我們會來努力 謝謝好 那就接下來 請看18案18案 被委員接辦禮 沒有意見通過19案 被委員會接辦禮 沒有意見通過第20案 凍結100萬年 那這個部分"},{"start":8610.255,"end":8611.861,"text":"報告主席那個改動節20萬已經簽名了"},{"start":8617.034,"end":8645.003,"text":"來改動結二十五案沒有見通過二十一案並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過二十二案改組決議沒有見通過二十三案改組決議沒有見通過二十四案改組決議沒有見通過二十五案改組決議沒有見通過二十六案改組決議沒有見通過二十七案改組決議沒有見通過二十八案改組決議沒有見通過二十九案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":8646.664,"end":8674.663,"text":"30案凍結10萬年沒有意見通過31案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過32案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過33案主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過34案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過35案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過36案主決議遵照辦理照案通過37案主決議遵照辦理照案通過38案主...啊 怎麼樣?"},{"start":8677.779,"end":8683.143,"text":"你認為國內的低薪成為國安問題,你作為勞動部的部長,你有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":8706.942,"end":8715.769,"text":"陳總長,其實勞動部在我們全管範圍,我們一直很努力。這8年來,就我們自己所主管的基本工資,我們8年連續調升。"},{"start":8719.332,"end":8719.492,"text":"主席"},{"start":8734.386,"end":8736.387,"text":"８立法院黨團協商８公務預算部分８公務預算部分８"},{"start":8759.205,"end":8773.893,"text":"市長適用最低工資法的現在的勞工大概多少人報告委員大概240萬左右總數勞工有多少總數受付勞工的話大概900萬那您這一次的最低工資法通過會有效益嗎"},{"start":8785.98,"end":8810.16,"text":"報告委我覺得一定會有幫助一定會有效益因為這幾年雖然沒有最低工資法我用基本工資的審議辦法我們也連續8年調升而且調升的幅度我看崗委報告調升的幅度是非常非常大的那未來的這個最低工資法因為它整個審議的制度更健全程序更明確審議的指標也更清楚"},{"start":8810.88,"end":8813.541,"text":"民團都不看好 我也不看好 有少數民團 有很多勞團肯定我們 像勞政 全產種"},{"start":8834.085,"end":8850.035,"text":"他們都看得很清楚 那個也一再他們對這個法律要通過都很期待謝謝委員總召你們的支持讓這個法草野的委員支持讓我們法輪功順利通過我們不支持啊比如說條件不得低於7年度CPI我們不支持"},{"start":8850.775,"end":8866.302,"text":"報告總召這個部分其實我其實那天在委員會有跟您說過有時候我們必須在一個法你要把它定死說不能第一某個其實在現在世界各主要國家的有最低公司法沒有這樣定那其實今天也有老團提出有"},{"start":8870.664,"end":8894.633,"text":"今天有勞團說是不是用這樣子說不得定某個指標它說不見得對勞工有利所以我是覺得我們其實以這幾年的審議我們的經驗跟總統報告我們其實重視在疫情我們全數都反映我們的CPI甚至在參佐GDP等等條幅都比這個CPI還高你的問題大家都自己講出來了"},{"start":8897.179,"end":8908.821,"text":"疫情期間就用政府的政府補助嘛 你也講了嘛 對不對所以意思是說 政總長的話就用不得已低於前年CPI是對的"},{"start":8910.535,"end":8933.493,"text":"只是你不敢 不敢答應對不對不是 這個報告總長 因為我們有時候法律定在那邊比如說遇到特殊的情況 你少個一塊錢都不行那一個法這麼硬的話 我覺得不見得是好啦世界最主要的國家幾乎都是給我們審議委員更多的談席去參佐當時的情況來決定這個公司啦"},{"start":8938.12,"end":8939.1,"text":"現在請大家看38案38案主決議 沒人見通過"},{"start":8969.062,"end":8982.949,"text":"三十九案 主決議 有沒有意見遵照辦理好 照案通過四十案 主決議文字修正這個有文字修正有文字修正主決議 文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":8984.731,"end":8985.892,"text":" 41 案主決議有沒有見?"},{"start":8985.892,"end":9006.851,"text":"遵照辦理好 照案通過42 案遵照辦理好 照案通過43 案主決議有做文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過44 案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過45 案撤案46 案主決議有做文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過47 案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":9008.137,"end":9024.342,"text":"那再來就48案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過49案 通3案 我們就通案處理50案 改組結一 理沒有見通過51案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過52案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過53案 減列150萬元改動保險業務150萬元"},{"start":9036.087,"end":9037.389,"text":"部長啊 這個不要凍結了啦 給你三個二十萬啦"},{"start":9065.102,"end":9066.744,"text":"剪列二十萬 科目自行調整"},{"start":9075.302,"end":9095.255,"text":"50案 通商案 通案處理55案 改為主決議 沒有見通過56案 凍結10萬年 沒有見通過57案 改主決議 沒有見通過58案 通商案 通案處理59案 並委員結辦理 沒有見通過60案 改主決議 沒有見通過61案 改主決議 沒有見通過62案 改主決議 沒有見通過63案 增累500萬年"},{"start":9103.755,"end":9106.563,"text":"遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":9110.285,"end":9119.11,"text":"64 案改組結議沒有見通過65 案改凍結10萬年沒有見通過66 案改組結議沒有見通過67 案並委員結辦理沒有見通過68 案也是賴委員的 減列100萬年這邊改凍5%減20萬"},{"start":9144.349,"end":9152.299,"text":"簡略二十萬科目自行調整通過六十九案通商沒有見通案處理七十案改組協議"},{"start":9154.434,"end":9167.061,"text":"沒有意見通過70案主席亦作文書修正沒有意見就修正通過72案主席亦有沒有意見就照案通過接下來我們就換衛福部好 謝謝"},{"start":9216.886,"end":9226.433,"text":"現在進行衛生福利部主管在這邊介紹列席的首長衛生福利部部長薛瑞炎先生"},{"start":9228.955,"end":9232.557,"text":"七十三案改組決議,沒有見通過"},{"start":9252.253,"end":9274.09,"text":"那就是這一屆快要即將結束也沒看到衛福部針對我們一些工業區做流行病學調查那在明年的預算好像也沒看到那今天就是因為環境部環境部已經要把偏鄉汽機車減量"},{"start":9279.023,"end":9280.203,"text":"《中華民國1年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":9301.147,"end":9301.747,"text":"中央政府總預算"},{"start":9320.874,"end":9347.222,"text":"那你長期的怠惰啊讓這個供應區附近的這個疾病啊癌症這個癌症發生率死亡率一直增加降不下來然後你現在環境部又要去做這個增量可以抵換那這個怎麼說呢那麻煩衛福部跟環境部去溝通他們如果增量一定要有"},{"start":9348.403,"end":9373.522,"text":"公信科學的證明可以去增量這樣可以嗎?你們也要關心這個事情可以嗎?如果是屬於環境部業務的部分的話那你們流行病學調查要做阿對阿我們就是要針對因為過去的話在做所謂的流行病學調查收集的資料都是全國性的並沒有特別說對哪一種那你們全國性就看不出來阿這做"},{"start":9374.838,"end":9376.959,"text":"陳委員 我們盡量集中回到預算好不好是回到預算 今天就是預算的問題 他們就是不做啊"},{"start":9396.852,"end":9397.692,"text":"科技預算我們就可以來做安排"},{"start":9427.25,"end":9452.675,"text":"好 那請大家看74案改組決議沒有見通過75案改組決議沒有見通過76案凍結案 是不是 謝委員 是不是我們並委員會決議辦理對好 76案並委員會決議辦理好 74案通山 我們通案處理78案檢列3百萬年 賴大委員"},{"start":9455.444,"end":9481.105,"text":"那個是不是委員同意我來 委員同意那個改山一百萬好 改山 改為山 減列一百萬年好 那沒有意見通過七十九案 也是代大委員的 來我也是同意 同意三五十萬 二十改為減列五十萬 那沒有意見通過都自行調整啦好 自行 科目都自行調整啦齁來 八十案改組結議 沒有意見通過"},{"start":9484.041,"end":9487.183,"text":"來﹖81案改組結議沒有見通過﹖82改組結議沒有見通過﹖83案凍結60萬元﹖要不要併委員接辦禮"},{"start":9494.009,"end":9497.131,"text":"委員改組結議改組結議沒有見通過84案改組結議沒有見通過85案改組結議沒有見通過86案改組結議沒有見通過87"},{"start":9515.279,"end":9516.92,"text":"衛福部要不要編預算去做普遍肺腺癌篩檢?"},{"start":9529.46,"end":9557.068,"text":"現在這還是全國性的就是說這些低劑量的CT這一個部分的話我們是可以逐步的再夠擴大但是我們不一定會說針對哪一個地方可不可以先針對工業區鄰近的先做可以嗎因為這樣的目標不是那麼明確那你是住在北部對不對你就不重視現在中共業區附近的污染啊我家是在南部啦"},{"start":9558.052,"end":9558.112,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9582.964,"end":9584.465,"text":"有限的資源一定是全國普遍去做,如果發現說哪一個地區有比較高的話,我們就要做處理"},{"start":9601.781,"end":9624.879,"text":"要先骨片做了之後 如果是工業區的人那邊的確是問題比較多的 我們再深入去做啦那邊癌症比較多難道不應該先做嗎那邊空氣污染PM2.5比較高難道不應該先做嗎PM2.5是一級致癌物欸一級致癌物欸PM10也是一級致癌物欸 不該先做嗎好"},{"start":9628.312,"end":9652.193,"text":"這個理由不夠強嗎換劉思芳委員講話 因為她有舉手了對 因為我也在中南部我當然會非常重視剛剛陳委員講的這個聲音我建議部長是這樣回應就是說有關於工業區附近有一些譬如說致癌的物質比較強的話在衛福部的立場上面你們當然會配合科技部但是衛福部的主管也有人會去出席全國科技會議"},{"start":9653.234,"end":9653.674,"text":"好 我們回到預算好不好"},{"start":9678.438,"end":9693.766,"text":"回到預算我們就請88案就3減50萬賴大偉就3減50萬 減裂50萬賴委員不換 沒賴大偉沒有意見就通過89案改組決議 沒有意見通過90案改組決議 沒有意見通過91 92 93 94 95 96 97都是改組決議 沒有意見就全部通過啦好啦 98案"},{"start":9707.694,"end":9712.297,"text":"凍結98案改組結議沒有見通過99案凍結10萬元並101案那101案也是改凍結10萬元那這兩案就沒有見通過100案就改組結議那沒有見通過好來"},{"start":9737.5,"end":9760.93,"text":"102 組結議104 組結議"},{"start":9762.442,"end":9762.962,"text":"105 文字修正106 組結議107 組結議108 組結議"},{"start":9781.884,"end":9785.107,"text":"一百零九組結議一百一一零組結議一一一組結議一一二組結議一一三組結議"},{"start":9807.659,"end":9817.902,"text":"好 那就文字修正修正通過已經有文字修正 那委員也同好 那就文字修正就修正通過有文字修正沒有就修正通過"},{"start":9836.907,"end":9846.051,"text":"市長 特殊工業區建議還是要趕快做流行病學調查如果說工業區那麼多然後CT的檢查還是要優先排我想衛福部你們都是專業"},{"start":9866.499,"end":9878.279,"text":"我們中南部如果早期發現早期治療這樣子也可以顧全很多家庭避免這種後續疾病嚴重發生的時候影響家計"},{"start":9880.336,"end":9880.516,"text":"主席"},{"start":9902.22,"end":9923.792,"text":"一二二主決議有沒有意見 遵照辦理 照案通過一二三主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二四主決議有文字修正沒有意見就修正通過一二五主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二六主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二七主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二八主決議 保留"},{"start":9927.013,"end":9928.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9953.893,"end":9957.614,"text":"我們建議修正文字傳公眾人物於公開場所稀釋加熱菸這樣修正"},{"start":9967.591,"end":9969.312,"text":"副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長"},{"start":9982.737,"end":10009.498,"text":"改成不要寫名字,但是等一下還有另外一個案子,你們要特別在那邊寫名字等一下啦,等一下啦,這個我先改一下先文字修正好不好,OK好,130組決議,那文字修正,那沒有意見就修正通過來,131組決議有沒有意見建議是修正文字有修正文字"},{"start":10011.021,"end":10011.802,"text":"有修正文字"},{"start":10034.198,"end":10048.345,"text":"好 民運建築室 暫停一下啦暫停一下啦你怎麼不問薛一鳳書記長 這個都是他蓋章的 你要尊重一下132啦 131啦131啦 131啊 131啊他說有修改文字 有嗎不是 你那是132啦 131 現在"},{"start":10068.924,"end":10069.124,"text":"131保留132組決議"},{"start":10090.077,"end":10092.579,"text":"132組決議文字修正,那就修正通過133組決議有沒有意見文字修正"},{"start":10119.124,"end":10142.15,"text":"部長 有關這個新冠的這些打了疫苗那有些死啦 有些重傷害我記得我在總諮詢的時候你答應我兩年內要處理阿你到底什麼時候要處理完阿那個六千 六千 那六千件在當時總諮詢的時候那六千件已經處理了"},{"start":10144.78,"end":10169.233,"text":"對 我們黨團開了六七次記者會啦 你在總諮詢答應我們了 那什麼時候要處理完人家死了死 傷了傷 那就趕快委員報告我們大概最晚明年九月底前天可以申完 那我目前大概每兩個禮拜會審查一次那每次會審查大概一百五十個案件 那我們大概一個月大概可以審查三百案"},{"start":10171.836,"end":10198.181,"text":"目前已經處理了大概6、7千案大概7千案左右那還有6千案對不對不不不我們總共大概是9千案我的各位委員報告我當時在總質詢答應的時候那時候就是6千件所以6千件已經處理的差不多但是陸陸續續後面還有新增的案子所以我們剛剛我們同仁說到明年9月大概可以把接下來賴委員有舉手來好 謝謝"},{"start":10200.262,"end":10209.712,"text":"委員長和各位先進為了一個選民不亂就是六千案裡面的"},{"start":10210.902,"end":10233.835,"text":"他送進去喔 超過一年啊 沒有人理啊很可憐的 他就說他很弱勢 你說六千的處理完了 結果敢問政總召喚咧 這樣欺騙他就來找我 我們傳給你們 就都沒消息他一年多了 放一年多了 一年多了 他腦部啪啪的死去啊"},{"start":10235.253,"end":10238.254,"text":"一年多不是新增了,已經放一年多了,舊的,舊的,歸案"},{"start":10259.167,"end":10259.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":10289.07,"end":10289.25,"text":"那就謝謝了"},{"start":10308.078,"end":10335.311,"text":"總統最後一句了齁我覺得剛才部長回答得非常好我希望你的回答就是真的針對疫苗打了已經往生死掉的這些人真的按照你講的你的承諾去把他簽一遍一定超過一年的超過一段時間快點給人家啦到底怎麼樣結果趕快出來要先講清楚不然這樣謝謝人家很辛苦又拖久了很辛苦的啦"},{"start":10337.21,"end":10337.65,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10359.912,"end":10372.791,"text":"修正文字沒有意見就修正通告135也是跟剛才133一樣就是疫苗的受害者的審議我們可以"},{"start":10374.674,"end":10398.471,"text":"就是說在這個依法的這個上面做稍微的修正但是我們還是希望說整個疫苗受害者不只是死亡的在施打疫苗其實還有一些症狀性的受害者那也希望我們衛福部可以重寬重塑認定緊述給予所有疫苗施打的受害者給他們救助"},{"start":10399.865,"end":10421.662,"text":"曾仲章其實部長我覺得政府不應該替或者說這些受害者太多的計較了我沒有記錯的話有因果關係的比例很低對不對 多少 講一下如果確定因果關係的多少我請問"},{"start":10423.993,"end":10450.319,"text":"那有因果關係的比例大概確實是比較低 不過因為他們如果有5%左右但是我們現在的補償是如果沒有辦法判斷有因果關係的時候還會補啊你叫衛福部嘛 你不要跟這些人受害者太多的計較貝兆宜你們對高端啊 太好啦"},{"start":10451.803,"end":10477.424,"text":"他疫苗走不出去連最近我給你調的資料流感疫苗啊部長流感疫苗我們採購幾家四家四家講一下東陽、高端、國光還有一個是賽諾菲對我重複一下啦他就是有申請了嘛"},{"start":10479.122,"end":10489.845,"text":"國光 戰鬥會 東洋 跟高端 對不對那為什麼人家不打高端 人在哪裡這四家喔 在採購法排序的話"},{"start":10499.631,"end":10519.785,"text":"順序你們唸一下 民眾很清楚第一名當然是國光 第二是塞諾菲 第三是東陽 第四是高端高端 現在原名叫高端有人要煮就好了喔那好事好了啦沒有啦 目前沒有出案了所以你們對趙宜 我要講個結論對趙宜蔡政府百般客戶高端"},{"start":10529.895,"end":10549.757,"text":"啊 從那個疫苗 那個當時的這些COVID-19的疫苗的購買 到現在的流感疫苗的購買百般啦對高端有夠好 但是對一般民眾受害者 你的因果關係還個位數"},{"start":10551.994,"end":10576.803,"text":"阿 要等那麼久部長 你能不能同意阿第一個 剛剛我們署長講了嘛 從速從寬嘛 從簡阿 是不是這樣這個就是我們現在努力的目標 所以剛剛有報告過其實我們現在每個月的 開舊審查案件的時候已經是非常 非常加速你現在叫加速阿 結果你的有因果關係還是 那個 集團署現在比例多少"},{"start":10577.883,"end":10605.91,"text":"有因果關係大概是5%左右 不過我們確實就是用重寬重縮重減的一個方式來做一些核定 不過我們還是要尊重專家的一些還是要尊重專業的一個意見 來做一些判斷 是不是有因果關係好我不是質詢 我請教 因為有醫生告訴我說今年的流感疫苗 抓不到"},{"start":10607.085,"end":10612.411,"text":"跟委員報告目前疫苗的採購大概都是參考世界衛生組織公佈的疫苗株"},{"start":10631.769,"end":10654.094,"text":"跟今年的一個感染的病毒株是相符合的這個在我們實驗室有做過相關的一些認證所以今年如果有打疫苗的話就可以有效的防止今年的一個流感的疫情好那我們接下來謝謝大家我們現在1359剛才就是說修正通過嘛我們就修正通過1361有沒有意見修正"},{"start":10658.198,"end":10680.557,"text":"有修正,文字修正,沒有意見就修正通過修正的部分只有加四個字,報告主席只有加四個字,就是在原要求衛福部文字修正通過就好啦好來,137主決議,有沒有意見?遵照辦理好,沒意見就通過"},{"start":10682.498,"end":10698.424,"text":"138 主決議 遵照辦理 沒意見 召喚通過139 主決議 遵照辦理 召喚通過140 主決議 遵照辦理 召喚通過141 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 修正通過142 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 修正通過143 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 就修正通過144 主決議"},{"start":10705.246,"end":10717.592,"text":"文書修正沒有意見就修正通過145主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過146主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過147主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過148主決議"},{"start":10726.104,"end":10726.484,"text":"主決議主決議"},{"start":10748.326,"end":10750.307,"text":"提案人看一下提案人看一下"},{"start":10777.759,"end":10800.827,"text":"好來 那就暫時保留啦齁 這個暫時保留 等一下回頭再來好來149案主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過150主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過151主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過152主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過153主決議 有做文作修正 沒有意見就修正通過154主決議"},{"start":10803.359,"end":10805.184,"text":"有文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":10812.668,"end":10815.129,"text":"有文字的修正那大家沒有意見的話我們就修正通過"},{"start":10841.582,"end":10841.602,"text":"162組結議163組結議164組結議165組結議166組結議167組結議168組結議169組結議164啊"},{"start":10869.872,"end":10870.292,"text":"我們接受很多的團體的陳情"},{"start":10886.852,"end":10886.912,"text":"169主席"},{"start":10911.462,"end":10913.143,"text":"有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告"},{"start":10930.204,"end":10947.316,"text":"173 組結議遵照辦理來 召喚通過那接下來 174 改組結議沒有見通過175 檢列賴大委員檢列185改凍結百分之五委員同意改凍結百分之五好那175 就改為凍結百分之五提書面報告提書面報告好 來176"},{"start":10958.904,"end":10979.715,"text":"修正 改組決議啦176 蛤 是不是 併委員會決議辦理就好可以啦 好 已經改啦 組決議好 來 沒有見通過177 通商 通案辦理178 通商 通案辦理179 通商 通案辦理180 併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通過181 凍結五分之一改組決議 這是併委員會決議辦理 已經改了嗎"},{"start":10989.459,"end":10991.32,"text":"改組協議182通3科目通案辦理183並委員會協議辦理184檢定100萬年"},{"start":11005.79,"end":11016.396,"text":"改檢列10萬年沒有見通過185通3我們就通案處理186並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過187並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過188通3我們通案辦理189改組結議沒有見通過190通3通案辦理191"},{"start":11033.787,"end":11039.89,"text":"剪列80萬元有沒有意見改為剪列20萬元沒有意見就通過192案改凍結藥裝管理工作50萬元沒有意見通過"},{"start":11051.616,"end":11056.657,"text":"193改組結議沒有見通過194改組結議沒有見通過195改組結議沒有見通過196改組結議沒有見通過197通三通案處理198通三通案處理199減類100萬年有沒有意見改組結議啦好不好"},{"start":11078.054,"end":11081.079,"text":"總共才900多萬你檢列100萬怎麼活得下去兩組決議"},{"start":11089.648,"end":11107.332,"text":"因為昨天有去委員辦公室那邊有溝通,辦公室這邊是說因為這個是跟速發部的案子是相關的,所以委員這邊是說是希望能夠保留速發部已經投訂了"},{"start":11110.516,"end":11129.543,"text":"蘇發部已經合理沒有所謂到外國去備援了嘛用蘇發部的講法那就是這個備援系統一定要在國內不可以到國外沒有錯蘇發部確實明年度的預算就是在國內"},{"start":11139.506,"end":11155.874,"text":"在通案上面也有處理是改組協議嗎沒有改組協議就是裡面的文字就是並跟那個訴發部一樣寫法啦好那就改組協議好沒有建議通過200就通案處理怎麼樣那個200案跟199是同樣的都是那個訴發部的計畫"},{"start":11166.121,"end":11174.369,"text":"但是他因為通商就通案處理他因為屬於通商的科目那201組決議有做文件修正沒有意見就修正通過202組決議有沒有意見要遵照辦理"},{"start":11181.215,"end":11182.996,"text":"203屬於通商科目204改組結議205改組結議206改組結議207組結議有做文字修正208組結議有遵照辦理"},{"start":11205.453,"end":11214.758,"text":"209 檢列八十萬元有沒有改?委員同意改檢列十萬元209 改為檢列十萬元 沒有見通過210 改組結役 沒有見通過211 有沒有改?有修正是凍結兩百萬"},{"start":11230.868,"end":11231.948,"text":"212、213兩個都是通3,我們就通案處理"},{"start":11257.559,"end":11275.515,"text":"1213我不同意部長我想就教一下這個是大概針對那個托嬰中心的監視錄影設備的設置管理要求要強制設定可是這個因為我們現在的法令沒有監管監管雲的這個相關的法律的依據"},{"start":11276.055,"end":11299.05,"text":"那這個還有一些他們這些幼教業者老師他們有一些他們在個人的肖像或者是資安保護上他們有一些不同的意見那對於這個因為這些監視攝影的設備的設置齁其實你們的管理還是要求業者自行管理所以在管理上其實還是有一些漏洞那針對這個部分業者的意見你們這邊怎麼看"},{"start":11300.974,"end":11317.354,"text":"這個部分其實是這樣,第一個就是說,我們要保護的這些幼兒,因為他自己不會說明說他有沒有受到一些虐待或不當對待所以我們還是基於保護這個幼兒的一個角度出發"},{"start":11318.115,"end":11345.242,"text":"那第二個過去許多案件那的確有設了監視器但是當案件有這種投訴出來的時候我們去做調查的時候就調不到他的影像所以我們才說希望就是說這些的話能夠上傳到一個雲裡面去的話那就能夠代為做這種影像的保存而不會就是說出事的時候要調查他保存的那個期限"},{"start":11348.845,"end":11367.443,"text":"但是對於他這個4-603號解釋因為現在其實老實講他們這些脫陰脫幼的幼教業者他們其實在招聘師資的這個缺工的問題是非常大那這會不會造成一些寒蟬效應因為他們包含就是說他們認為他們的隱私權跟人性尊嚴他們應該要受到憲法22條的保障"},{"start":11369.105,"end":11392.958,"text":"那對於他們這個實際的監管雲端儲存因為現在其實資訊外流甚至駭客的問題非常嚴重那這個是他們會對於他們從業人員會擔心的在這方面有沒有相關的保護機制或是相關的配套機制還是後面的這個針對雲端資料監管的法令的相關的一個修法的討論"},{"start":11394.018,"end":11415.641,"text":"這部分的話跟委員報告其實在法律上面都已經規定說這一些都必須要設這些監視器監視器是一個資料的保存保護但是那個保存就是我剛剛解釋的現在的話經常就是他們業者自行保存保存的部分沒有問題嘛現在要求嘛但是要怎麼樣落實稽查"},{"start":11416.161,"end":11416.321,"text":"資料雲端保護"},{"start":11431.713,"end":11450.623,"text":"包含這些一些私密影像的保護其實現在都是民眾最害怕那加上這些托嬰托幼的這些業者其實他們這種寒蟬消音因為現在少子女化如果是國安危機其實也要保護他們這些工作的一個權益但如果造成他這個行業恐慌的時候其實對於他們在招募上也是有很大的困擾"},{"start":11452.404,"end":11473.682,"text":"這兩點,第一點就是說當我們選擇這些雲的業者的時候,那一定是要好好能夠被我們所監督的也就是說他的資安的保護必須要是足夠的,這是第一點那第二點的話,我舉個例子給委員做參考"},{"start":11474.723,"end":11493.87,"text":"過去在20年前我們希望說消防隊的救護車上面的話去裝這監視器那時候大部分的消防人員是反對的那現在的話是他們要求要裝原因是什麼在當時在救護車上面做這些救護工作"},{"start":11495.01,"end":11523.399,"text":"那時候他們比較沒有信心那我覺得你這個社會的溝通業者的溝通這個要做好然後相關的法源跟政令的配套機制要能夠落實不然我覺得這會造成很多這個社會的分裂但是我是覺得這個還是應該要完整的來去做這兩個案子是並一案你們兩個都有提案沒關係我保留好了兩個案兩個案都是同事啊我這案我保留齁那那個沒有 社會事務委員他先走"},{"start":11524.919,"end":11553.739,"text":"我想要針對 其實剛才我們林維周委員跟民眾黨的黨團提案 直接凍結 因為我覺得說當然你們說的是對 希望說用一個 把監視影像放在雲端 但是其實我們可以看到過去衛福部的業者 你們委託的業者 因為你們也沒有辦法完全的控管"},{"start":11554.56,"end":11574.051,"text":"那業者會發生什麼樣的情況其實你們也不清楚那未來我們把這些幼兒以及幼保的崇教人員的影像的這些權利都交給你們衛福部然後來產生一個監管員來統一處理的時候未來如果這些影像發生什麼問題"},{"start":11578.113,"end":11598.697,"text":"在所有的數位發展的法令上面都沒有辦法做到完全的監管尤其是在我們政府部門的資料的外洩上面其實我們現在也沒有辦法完全有效的解決在沒有辦法完全有效的解決之前"},{"start":11599.977,"end":11604.538,"text":"因為我們兩岸是同樣這個內容針對這個內容不是 我們不希望是保留保留的話就是只是去表決而已我們不希望是這樣子"},{"start":11629.003,"end":11654.953,"text":"這個案子是這樣現在法律的規定是所有的推嬰中心都要設監視器該設的地方都要設包括那個嬰兒車上面都會設監視器而且有規定他這個硬碟要保留多久這個都有法律規定如果業者沒有按照這個法律規定沒有設監視器或是他的硬碟沒有保存多久都有罰則啦"},{"start":11657.094,"end":11681.06,"text":"他要被罰的違法的違規的所以會被罰現在這筆2.6億的預算是要做什麼呢他要把它弄一個全國的監視雲就是說把所有各地的各個業者這個拖音中心的硬碟再摳一次然後放在雲端"},{"start":11681.9,"end":11682.921,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11711.8,"end":11737.125,"text":"2.6億"},{"start":11739.71,"end":11765.364,"text":"幾乎都是在做雲端我在為完委員會 我很清楚另外每年還要花管理費管理費是縣市政府又要撥上千萬幾千萬的管理去管理雲端所以縣市政府態度上也沒有很支持現在大家最擔心的是家長"},{"start":11768.159,"end":11795.155,"text":"家長認為說我的小孩子在那邊托嬰中心你知道的要幫忙洗澡拔屎拔尿通通看到那這些東西都要把它集中在雲端萬一有駭客本來分散的資料還比較安全一點你現在把它全國集中駭客只要到那個雲端駭進去就像我們最近看到駭客這樣一列出來通通"},{"start":11796.135,"end":11800.888,"text":"被看到所以反而危險其中的資料有比較安全嗎對駭客來講喔"},{"start":11803.291,"end":11826.859,"text":"集中對駭客最好他只要突破這個監視雲他就全部看到了所以這個有比他安全嗎所以這個是被質疑的我的建議啦 我的建議就是說先凍結然後專案報告之後公聽會開完大家比較有共識之後解凍也不要去刪除他全數凍結"},{"start":11830.72,"end":11831.12,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11849.955,"end":11852.517,"text":"那是我們要面對這個事情來好好討論一下"},{"start":11872.193,"end":11886.736,"text":"耳哨前五議法第七條之一已經立法通過 一定要監視 要錄影 三十天 沒有錯吧但是你要很了解 常常很多糾紛 孩子沒要講話啦 孩子沒要講話很多糾紛 學校常常有這種糾紛 以後要錄影帶 叫不到"},{"start":11896.188,"end":11912.789,"text":"還是一樣 它調不到 派息沒有錄到 好像被重視過所以這種現象你要了解這是一體兩面的家長對這個要求是很高的你只要站在幼兒的立場上 那是一部分這兩個部分都要考慮"},{"start":11915.392,"end":11932.311,"text":"這大家要慎重來考慮這個事情這可以前途嗎?我先問一下這2.6億都是用在這個方面嗎?不是吧?是,跟委員報告2.6億就是因為要處理1500多家的所以現在要把它上到雲端去嗎?它集中起來,雲端起來集中起來"},{"start":11935.267,"end":11937.049,"text":"平常不可以看 有糾紛才會掉下來"},{"start":11953.502,"end":11974.509,"text":"這個都是很嚴重的公共議題現在很多縣市都開始做了 都有做縣市才有做 台中 台北 新北都自己做了他不相信學校 他只能先生來做因為按這邊麻煩嘛 大家在那現在180家已經做了 你要把它全部停下來嗎"},{"start":11975.709,"end":11990.829,"text":"我覺得大家要好好考慮一下這個沒有說違憲不違憲的問題還沒有再講這很重要公共利益的問題所以大家要忍心想一想我知道他沒有去想要陳情但是"},{"start":11993.092,"end":12007.988,"text":"所以現在全國同意來做嘛然後再引斷啊你說會被盜的你平常都有被盜啊好像說被重置的機會非常大 待會就會被重置那要小心一點啦"},{"start":12011.411,"end":12033.51,"text":"好謝謝院長謝謝院長我講一下這個案子啦原則上我覺得我不知道現場狀況怎麼樣但是我自己是三個小孩子父親我小朋友也就是很多都是學齡前的那我也很了解這個家長的心情我覺得現在最大的問題是什麼就是說你這個"},{"start":12034.07,"end":12034.91,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12052.455,"end":12071.302,"text":"有小朋友你可能在幼稚園的時候老師當然就是說你可能有換尿布甚至是有一些他們的這個睡午覺或是他們有一些私人影像這個你的資料保護到底有沒有辦法能夠落實剛剛上一個協商的時候光那個法務部暗網的問題這種假訊息的問題駭客的問題"},{"start":12075.163,"end":12094.475,"text":"只要發生的時候 各部會甩鍋來甩鍋去阿你沒有辦法管理阿 這個現在是這個問題阿你要求他們做當然沒有做業者一定會有他不同的反應可是問題是你管理上有問題的時候這些個人資料的保護 資安的問題還有肖像的問題甚至會不會拿來用其他的"},{"start":12097.057,"end":12097.217,"text":"主席"},{"start":12116.694,"end":12132.831,"text":"實際的這個整個物資源的整個整天的行程你們監管的範圍在哪裡這個其實都沒有跟民眾講清楚其實對民眾來講是資訊安全保護的問題我覺得這個是第一個第二個就是彼此信任的問題"},{"start":12133.692,"end":12133.912,"text":"社會溝通和業者"},{"start":12159.355,"end":12188.273,"text":"如果你問我個人的意見我覺得是整個政府的 蘇菲政府的資料保護的一個總體性的一個一個機制的建制從法令上 從系統上 從技術上阿這個部分 蘇發部有沒有角色是不是也應該來去做相關的一個討論那我這邊的案子是凍結我們是用凍結案啦齁那我們認為說說我們也建議還是把它凍結做一個專案報告來說明清楚再來繼續執行接下來劉蘇安委員 然後再謝宥安委員"},{"start":12189.013,"end":12216.363,"text":"我們兩個黨團提到的都是屬於凍結案就表示說其實對於那個社發部所提的這個部分社福部所提的為家屬所提的部分還是會覺得要遵照我們原來的那個兒少權益保護法77條之一來處理那我們也了解到有家長跟社工或者是說跟這些幼保老師之間的一個矛盾今天我們所質疑的部分不應該完全是由衛福部來一手承擔為什麼呢"},{"start":12220.385,"end":12227.629,"text":"新北市、台北市、台中市、台南市、台中縣政府已經都在執行對於各支法的保障或是對肖像權的保障這個部分當然要要求他們做得很清楚所以我們也不會反對凍結"},{"start":12237.594,"end":12238.515,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分：完整會議"},{"start":12258.186,"end":12279.424,"text":"那不管未來在立法院要舉行公聽會或是要找那個訴發部一起來討論的話呢其實我們都不會反對讓他可以更完整的保護我們的小朋友但是也可以來保障這些托幼老師的工作權這兩者之間我們要取一個中間的平衡點那你如果全數凍結的話根本就是不同意這樣做嘛"},{"start":12279.764,"end":12283.466,"text":"其實我覺得我們是立法院我們不應該過度的保護就是說為了要保護行政院的預算"},{"start":12305.097,"end":12309.483,"text":"其實我們大家都知道現在台灣的社會裡面資安的人才根本不夠用"},{"start":12320.317,"end":12342.786,"text":"我們在討論私人企業的各自外洩例如說有一些商城網站的各自外洩的時候我們聽到數位發展部他給予我們的是說他沒有辦法去管到私人部門的這個資安的問題而我們現在行政部門的資安人員也嚴重不足的情況下"},{"start":12344.087,"end":12344.187,"text":"主席"},{"start":12369.059,"end":12389.106,"text":"當業者沒有辦法保護的時候我們再去問數位發展部我們再去問相關部門的時候那他們怎麼樣子說明呢他們是不是又推給了我們數位人才不足的情況那如果我們數位資安人才目前整個整體社會都是嚴重不足的情況下我們是不是應該把這一個"},{"start":12391.027,"end":12412.818,"text":"所有小孩子以及幼教人員的監管群的設立問題我們應該暫緩實施即便是各縣市政府已經也在實施的委辦那我們是不是應該是目前委辦的情況未來作為中央政府要做這整個監管群的設置的這個相關的討論問題我認為這是可以討論的空間"},{"start":12415.939,"end":12437.351,"text":"好 那個 劉思汪委員劉思汪委員發言以後 如果還沒有共識 我們就保留啦因為大家沒有共識當然就保留嘛保留等到第二輪我們會提那個終極的建議修正案剛剛那個謝委員所提到的部分這是所有的五個縣市政府裡面"},{"start":12438.411,"end":12459.766,"text":"只有一個台南市民進黨的政府 其他都是國民黨籍的政府我知道 我是說是讓他們先辦理情況嘛他們現在在辦理是根據所說的這個錄影的保存是30天那現在就是說未來如果要當成額虐等於是觸犯到刑法裡面的虐待兒童的時候你必須要有完整的證據 而不是被這些人就把他洗掉"},{"start":12460.426,"end":12461.346,"text":"可是問題是現在目前就是說整體我們"},{"start":12484.355,"end":12498.445,"text":"整個社會裏面 資安的人員就是不夠嘛我看沒有啦 現在就要錄影了嘛先保留 晚一點再回來討論啦好不好 因為我們還有一個建議只是要資安更保護 要上雲端而已我提一個建議啦我們後面還有50個案我要提一個建議啦其實我們"},{"start":12508.112,"end":12536.372,"text":"不是說要把他刪減所以希望說充分討論你看現在大家都知道說各縣市也在做把他集中起來弄等於是新北市雲已經有一個這樣的方式現在是要把他弄全國在一起的監視雲有這個必要嗎還是就分散在各縣市你去補助各縣市做他們的監管雲"},{"start":12537.493,"end":12538.936,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12553.584,"end":12578.35,"text":"那個當前80%嘛然後各黨各黨提出報告各黨總選卷自己負責但是要一題兩題的問題大家要小心一點我只是希望充分討論業者啦 家長啦這個問題不是只有今天存在的存在很久了他們一直在跟衛福衛福溝通"},{"start":12580.411,"end":12581.952,"text":"暫時保留下午再討論我們還有討論的機會"},{"start":12596.385,"end":12603.55,"text":"212和213就暫時保留下午就討論214就是改為凍結5%沒有一件事通過接下來我們就環境部主管"},{"start":12639.618,"end":12642.219,"text":"剩下50案處理完這就結尾了"},{"start":12664.916,"end":12686.7,"text":"現在我們就環境部主管環境部主管我先介紹列席的所長環境部部長薛富聖先生介紹完畢那請大家看215案改為組結議沒有見通過216案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":12692.503,"end":12695.186,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12710.188,"end":12712.889,"text":"公務委員．立法院黨團協商．立法院黨協商．立法院黨協商．立法院黨協商"},{"start":12733.334,"end":12733.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":12748.528,"end":12748.748,"text":"村委員的意見"},{"start":12771.614,"end":12780.438,"text":"一定要想辦法做到好 那請看217案 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過218案 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過219 改組決議沒有見通過220 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過221 改凍結250萬也沒有見通過院長我講一下院長我講一下那個剛剛他已經保留了沒有 我要講一下你保留就"},{"start":12800.946,"end":12801.407,"text":"2222那個案子吧"},{"start":12819.264,"end":12845.069,"text":"那我今天質詢也是說報告可以公佈那你剛剛也說好了嘛對不對那是不是可以進行是針對當事人剛剛的執行的時候是針對當事人啦那有關前署長的那個部分就二二一案應該是保留吧因為在行政院那邊相當的案子已經保留了嘛沒有啊沒有保留啊行政院事責案有保留啦"},{"start":12847.523,"end":12867.184,"text":"二一保留沒有啊 二一為什麼要保留 請說明一下啊沒有要保留啊沒有共識就保留沒有啊 沒有共識 為什麼沒有共識 這個信箱還這麼嚴重本來就是要調查有什麼保留柯總長說明一下 你保留的原因是什麼"},{"start":12868.109,"end":12870.13,"text":"221保留 222改組結議沒有見通過 223改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":12893.48,"end":12903.949,"text":"224凍結二十分之一那文字修正那就有一件沒有一件通過222通商就通案處理"},{"start":12905.689,"end":12907.932,"text":"委員長我要講一下委員長我要講一下"},{"start":12924.532,"end":12925.714,"text":"沒有公訴保留有什麼問題呢"},{"start":12943.775,"end":12943.795,"text":"233改組決議234"},{"start":12970.72,"end":12987.706,"text":"剪列100萬元,那這個有沒有意見?有沒有?改動節5%那要不要提書面報告?提書面報告齁,那沒有意見就通過225改組結議,沒有意見通過235,抱歉抱歉,235改組結議沒有意見通過,236組結議有沒有意見?"},{"start":12994.65,"end":13022.91,"text":"剛剛221"},{"start":13023.411,"end":13035.696,"text":"那二一就是處理結案之後發布新聞稿那為什麼要保留 院長都看過了為什麼要保留沒有發布新聞稿那以前謝曉新的案子為什麼可以發布新聞稿那現在這個環保署我們的現在的政委我們這個案子發布新聞稿為什麼要保留親中商"},{"start":13049.421,"end":13049.601,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13071.954,"end":13073.095,"text":"在107年時任行政院"},{"start":13097.492,"end":13109.619,"text":"院長賴清德親自致左偉熙實地會刊．並宣布啟動左偉熙治理平台會議．預算無上限全力治理左偉熙陽城問題．歷經兩期計劃．投入21.7億元．左偉熙陽城已從106年．"},{"start":13121.076,"end":13122.438,"text":"59次降至117年僅兩次的成績"},{"start":13135.538,"end":13136.118,"text":"不要政策先導阿"},{"start":13171.437,"end":13180.64,"text":"我再調整一下好不好行政院長賴清德改成行政院可以嗎這樣就可以了行政院長賴清德改成行政院這樣可以嗎這是事實啊不要啦"},{"start":13192.378,"end":13196.4,"text":"107年時行政院宣布啟動不要有做選舉期間不要做這種"},{"start":13213.598,"end":13237.274,"text":"文字稍微矯正一下子可以我照你的你的文字是什麼我沒看到阿第二輪再講不可以嗎不可以不可以那怎麼辦那你上會我上會要成比例啦我不成比例我不要讓你再做政策宣導我講說事實阿你講說政策宣導之前的話我們文字稍微矯正總可以吧"},{"start":13239.555,"end":13240.255,"text":"任涵保留這不合理阿"},{"start":13270.205,"end":13270.766,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13295.11,"end":13298.514,"text":"二十五之一二十一已經宣布了"},{"start":13316.701,"end":13338.026,"text":"第二輪再來談第二輪再來談文字修正通過文字修正通過245之一246 併文人決議辦理沒有意見通過247 改組決議沒有意見通過248 通商科目沒有意見通案辦理249 併文人決議辦理沒有意見通過250 組決議有沒有意見文字修正"},{"start":13344.958,"end":13351.282,"text":"文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過251主決議 召喚通過252主決議 召喚通過253主決議有文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過 254主決議 有文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過 255主決議"},{"start":13369.654,"end":13379.379,"text":"建議文字修正好文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過256通3通案處理257改組決議沒有意見通過258改凍結100萬元沒有意見通過259通3通案處理260改凍結100萬元那沒有意見就通過"},{"start":13394.647,"end":13410.995,"text":"261 文字組結議 文字修正 沒有意見修正通過262 組結議 有沒有意見 捐到辦理 263 組結議 捐到辦理 264 組結議 捐到辦理265 266 都是通3 我們通案處理267 組結議 有做文字修正 沒有意見修正通過268 組結議 有做文字修正 沒有意見修正通過"},{"start":13423.212,"end":13428.896,"text":"二五一有文字修正二五一有文字修正所以組結一文字修正通過部長二一你們有問題嗎叫二人再談"},{"start":13452.182,"end":13455.586,"text":"下午2點 看大家方便等一下 下午2點 關鍵性人物 我要示範一下"},{"start":13470.737,"end":13475.779,"text":"兩點有會議因為第二輪沒有那麼快喔兩點半好不好 讓你開開帥一個負責 什麼事情都排開"},{"start":13503.422,"end":13527.154,"text":"但是他們還是要溝通啦因為還要溝通 他們現在喔 國部會因為二輪一定要溝通溝通還差啦不然你來喔那明天喔 明天因為你第二輪結束嘛 對不對那有一頁要整理 所以原則上明天就沒有關係啦 禮拜一我們至少禮拜一要協商法案防護稅好不好禮拜一"},{"start":13529.332,"end":13530.453,"text":"委員會要給他們時間,他們都加班,很辛苦"},{"start":13547.307,"end":13560.514,"text":"法案協商 防護稅 拜帝來處理本來就通知大家禮拜二表決 所有人行人都安排下午兩點半 多溝通"},{"start":22098.136,"end":22122.124,"text":"各位先進,我們現在開始開會現在我們要進行的是有關於第二輪的就是行政院所屬及各部會相關預算的協商"},{"start":22126.127,"end":22140.727,"text":"在剛開始的時候就要先進行通案的部分那要進行之前我就先介紹一下列席的所長首先介紹行政院秘書長李秘書長李孟彥先生再來介紹"},{"start":22142.585,"end":22144.366,"text":"現在我們就開始針對通案第三案"},{"start":22170.916,"end":22189.34,"text":"通案第三案,大家要發表意見嗎?還是要文字修正通過?這個第三案有關於組結議的部分,行政委員所提的事務部的跨境備演的問題這個要重新改寫"},{"start":22200.707,"end":22214.072,"text":"說可以做文字修正是不是?對,文字修正反正很清楚,你們現在是怕反對誇之悲焉現在有一個小組曾經來討論這個事情明年度並沒有這個計畫選新組就好了至於蘇委部改的"},{"start":22228.632,"end":22246.742,"text":"我們沒有辦法接受你這樣改法,罪名都在罵我們,蔡政府做法顯然雙標沒那麼在看啊,怎麼偷跑之前啊整個文章在罵我們怎麼可以很清楚表達對於這個他們恐慌的部分,我們就沒有在做還是怎麼樣,這樣寫清楚就好了,好不好"},{"start":22250.307,"end":22271.479,"text":"好,你覺得故事的部分,我們可以不要?謾罵的文詞不要啦!沒有這回事啦!他這種做法顯然雙標,這種我可以同意啦!所以我不想只顧你們的,你要看看前面文嘛!你把國家賣掉,然後你只顧你的"},{"start":22276.04,"end":22276.581,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22298.192,"end":22301.135,"text":"第一段第二段全部改寫就不要了你就針對問題他們擔心你針對詞就回答清楚就好了"},{"start":22324.529,"end":22351.903,"text":"現在行政委合併已經沒有了,民進黨預算也沒有這個他也沒有把文字修訂拿來給我們啊是不是?我沒有看到啊,我看到的都...為什麼只有給民進黨團?我不是啊有沒有,來重新寫一個好不好前面沒有改,後面也改,他只有改最後一段"},{"start":22353.715,"end":22361.12,"text":"沒有文字修訂,他新的文字修訂我們都沒有拿到這個部分,其實的確行政院好像是昨天"},{"start":22378.103,"end":22400.788,"text":"大概13號啊13號才核定的啦所以我們在提案的時候他的確當時偷跑這是沒有錯的啦情勢變更了嘛但是昨天等於是昨天行政院才核定啦那不諱言這的確是有偷跑啦那另外一個部分大概105年的部分其實當時"},{"start":22407.268,"end":22421.733,"text":"趕快 是不是事劃部裡面趕快 有意見那個要劃掉就趕快劃出來 不然都要這樣耗著也不是辦法嘛我們就修改就提出來 把版本提出來修改一下"},{"start":22446.988,"end":22473.183,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":22479.929,"end":22483.29,"text":"這不是誰改的?這張原來是誰改的?這張呢?"},{"start":22521.359,"end":22536.85,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22550.803,"end":22566.408,"text":"那個第五行這邊留幾個字好不好就是第三行到跨境後備那其性質屬新興計劃這可以留下來嗎這性質新興計劃留下來"},{"start":22574.469,"end":22583.425,"text":"沒有問題啦反正星星大概明年沒有星星嘛沒有就是說基本上這一個東西的確是全新的啦嘿"},{"start":22588.967,"end":22614.923,"text":"那幾個留下來沒有關係但是我覺得也要說明一下就是說其實在這個計畫的核定剛才唐鳳部長可能不在我們在於就是像各個部會都有相關的計畫那對於這個雲端備份的相關的就是資訊還有資通的安全的部分那過去以往我們也討論過"},{"start":22617.164,"end":22629.814,"text":"在於資安的人才目前國內的確還是尚未不足的情況下我們過去在商業部門的這些資料的外洩部分我們也進行過相關的討論那好像"},{"start":22632.196,"end":22632.436,"text":"主席"},{"start":22651.127,"end":22652.588,"text":"我們轄下有行政法人、國家自通安全研究院﹚"},{"start":22675.989,"end":22693.365,"text":"自安院跟自安署不同的﹐就是它可以跟民間一起﹐好比像說去開辦自安長的訓練﹐去訂定職能等等﹐增強全民的自安意識等等﹐所以這部分是在我們行政法人來做﹐不過也想澄清一下﹐就是我們在明年就如同柯總召所說的﹐"},{"start":22694.045,"end":22694.825,"text":"市長要注意一下,就這樣"},{"start":22720.612,"end":22745.574,"text":"等一下 是不是因為現在我們還沒有上位清除我們是不是應該要請數位發展部你們把文字修正以後沒有 你剛才又重新念了一次重新是要加幾個字那他把重新的修正給大家看一下好不好恢復幾個字而已 屬新興計畫你都會加我們同意嗎可以啦"},{"start":22757.773,"end":22758.313,"text":"一個就是後面改專案"},{"start":22784.817,"end":22811.51,"text":"對新計劃服務然後專案啦好不好可以啊沒有關係可以啊反正越報告越清楚啦好OK吧要有特別唸一遍嗎還是就這樣唸一遍好不好因為又改了很多東西欸是不是應該要再唸一遍要精確啦對啊要精確啦我講一下啦就是剛才我們發表的部分嘛"},{"start":22812.677,"end":22838.925,"text":"把那個屬新興計畫加回去你姓氏屬新興加回去請蘇發部相應委員提出相應計畫之名稱、各年度提成及經費等信箱說明專案報告好不好專案報告這樣就好了好不好主協議主協議對來"},{"start":22842.574,"end":22843.135,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22862.13,"end":22862.93,"text":"處理完畢"},{"start":22887.967,"end":22896.992,"text":"大家沒有意見,讓唐後部長可以離開接下來我們就處理行政院主管的部分"},{"start":22903.588,"end":22925.554,"text":"內政委員會一半保留27案 溝通有結果現在有4個案 還剩下23案要處理行政院主管的部分 剛才已經有介紹 行政院秘書長在場李孟彥先生"},{"start":22943.143,"end":22952.786,"text":"第二幕第12案12案這邊是不是建議修改這個文字有在各位委員的桌上在哪裡然後"},{"start":22957.804,"end":22964.294,"text":"請行政院督促法務部及NCC一三個月內提出書面報告"},{"start":22966.451,"end":22987.929,"text":"目前這樣子的修正我們不會接受因為公益信託修法行政院這樣子不負責任遙遙無期那不能因為法律沒過就無視問題所以就是請行政院盤點各機關公益信託監管的實況就現況問題提出檢討對策"},{"start":22992.948,"end":23018.422,"text":"目前這個信託法的修正案已經在司法委員會所以司法委員會如果趕快審查不要主決議還是凍結這樣可以嗎文字目前那就勉強接受他原來有一個病案凍結就不要病案就獨立案好不好那就保留了好不好"},{"start":23019.514,"end":23047.841,"text":"那是不是保留再保留一下為什麼要保留呢就我們既同意文字就獨立案了就好啦你們要互相我覺得只是拿錢幣這樣子動不動就欺負小黨嘛那文字我們已經勉強接受那就是獨立修正啊我們剛剛不是說修正那現在就是維持我們的原來的凍結"},{"start":23051.98,"end":23063.15,"text":"陳督委你是希望凍結百分之十對不對那全部才一百二十九萬而已啊那我們降一點好了凍結十萬好了啊十萬塊原來十趴只有十二萬"},{"start":23074.824,"end":23077.547,"text":"原來只有凍結12萬你現在要提高到20萬凍結6萬可以嗎有啊有讓啦"},{"start":23094.465,"end":23095.906,"text":"第十二案 改為凍結六萬年"},{"start":23113.41,"end":23138.439,"text":"改組決議那主要文字的有一些修正就是專案報告改成書面報告那使得動資拿掉那21案有沒有問題有問題有問題來請那這個才就是這是民眾黨這邊提才動200萬那現在這個行政院這邊文字暢改不對啦你們這文字改了就把我們原意曲解了啦"},{"start":23139.952,"end":23140.492,"text":"文字改中心一點好不好"},{"start":23167.073,"end":23168.614,"text":"可不可以併案,原來併案50萬,併這個科目"},{"start":23189.932,"end":23190.493,"text":"委員多少 委員多少"},{"start":23208.642,"end":23226.47,"text":"委員會案是五十才五十啊行政院積極打詐不要說毫無自己成效但是也不能說已有成效成效待評估啦好不好我們不要分出有沒有成效我們說他應該積極打詐就好了"},{"start":23228.351,"end":23228.491,"text":"一百萬"},{"start":23256.371,"end":23257.492,"text":"二十一案"},{"start":23277.539,"end":23302.858,"text":"二十一案我確認一下二十一案就是凍結一百萬年提書面報告文字修正沒有意見就通過二十五案有文字修正主要是專案報告改成書面折成原住民委員會"},{"start":23304.892,"end":23317.382,"text":"好 那凍結的數目一樣嗎凍結的數目可不可以並按因為改組決議就把凍就改成組決議這總共一千三十凍凍五百是太多了吧"},{"start":23320.049,"end":23335.241,"text":"或是建議併案、併案凍結這個委員他還好像那個是不是行政院還沒有溝通因為沒有等到委員我跟他有約委員見面可是委員沒有給時間我們就處理了好不好因為這個還是保留"},{"start":23349.916,"end":23351.137,"text":"25案保留26案"},{"start":23380.496,"end":23395.869,"text":"有文字修正那看了一下修正的文字就是我們還是要動啦所以就是那我們不要並動啦我們還是要動一下這樣子那我們就動50要動一下站起來動一動就好了"},{"start":23405.24,"end":23405.38,"text":"26案 動50案"},{"start":23425.489,"end":23426.77,"text":"文字有送給各位委員的桌上"},{"start":23444.622,"end":23445.743,"text":"26案就是 文字修正 凍結50萬 沒有意見 通過"},{"start":23472.249,"end":23485.095,"text":"凍結那邊劃掉的再寫回去啊?就是文字修正裡面原來把凍結兩百萬劃掉,現在改成凍結五十萬那凍結五十萬讓我問問吧凍結五十萬讓我問問吧凍結五十萬讓我問問"},{"start":23503.445,"end":23522.373,"text":"為終止行政案前保障人權保障,讓節50萬,然後3個月提出書面報告提出研議修正草案,書面報告"},{"start":23538.052,"end":23538.453,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23550.496,"end":23569.354,"text":"文字修正就你們注意一下啦行政院跟你們去注意一下文字你修好了修好了好那就這樣文字沒有修好文字再請行政院給我們你剛剛修50萬那個再修給我們再給我們再修正動輒50萬再投在那邊就有了嘛你動輒200改50就結束了"},{"start":23579.298,"end":23581.22,"text":"對 再重新送一張簽名 好 謝謝"},{"start":23597.844,"end":23626.407,"text":"好,好,好,來,我們就...動五十萬嘛,齁動五十萬,嘿,我們就修正我們就修正嘛,好,OK來,二十九案,通山客戶,我們就...通案處理,可以嗎?在哪裡?在這一個併通山好,那沒意見就通過啦好,來,再來三十案"},{"start":23628.348,"end":23629.909,"text":"本來就是該做的事"},{"start":23647.805,"end":23673.072,"text":"我們只是希望說你們有一個書面報告而已嘛原來這個其實應該還好吧這個是不是可以改成組結議那就改成組結議那書面報告好不好原來就是應該其實這個應該是給我們這樣好不好專案的啦好不好因為這個其實本來就是應該其實連那個"},{"start":23676.251,"end":23702.732,"text":"之前都已經變為維線了嘛這個我們的個資保護不足的這個問題那現在我們這個個資保護委員會的這個獨立機關這樣的他整個是不是這樣可不可以就是說用書面報告然後動比如說兩百萬或一百萬好啊那就兩百萬好了好不好就書面報告你們已經也刪了幾個一些東西了嘛沒關係好"},{"start":23705.222,"end":23729.097,"text":"三十案齁 凍結兩百萬提書面報告好我們有一件就通過那個耐斯堡委員那個阿你們把他弄通山阿他是很堅持沒有剛好已經跟他溝通過了你有跟他溝通過嗎你確定確定因為他本來就是通山科目阿來不來已經沒有了本來就是通山科目"},{"start":23730.37,"end":23753.256,"text":"好 那第38案 主結議的第38案 主結議 有沒有意見那這個我們有提修改文字 因為裡面有提到一些說行政院有桃色風波啦 我想這個這個措辭 我們希望保留表決啦 這個要保留 要保留啦第38案"},{"start":23766.604,"end":23783.889,"text":"文字調整一下嘛是不是文字什麼樣我們有建議有一些文字的調整那就主決議那你調整那個在哪裡對啊文字調整一下沒關係啦那就照這樣通過好不好"},{"start":23788.249,"end":23812.054,"text":"好啦 調整一下啦這個還是先保留好不好 因為那個孟愷孟愷有說希望先保留沒有啦 因為其實信憑的業務信憑的委員會都現在都已經強化而且在正常的現狀那個時候信憑商會改了嘛所以其實這個不要有這麼多比較"},{"start":23814.615,"end":23831.522,"text":"觸目驚心的字眼 功能是一樣的我想38跟42其實都類似 42也是這個 其實他們都建議要表決委員啦 38 42先留著啦 先留著好不好已經斷掉了 沒有了"},{"start":23838.594,"end":23866.385,"text":"會有啦那就保留啦先保留啦先保留啦42我是建議因為42李建鈺他已經離職那現在性騷擾的調查也出來會對他追加做處分所以最後這些處分的結果也都會來跟各位報告所以是不是這個可以那處分結果已經出來了嘛也陸續他在提人憑"},{"start":23869.547,"end":23878.252,"text":"要結案了吧那我們是不是做了一下文字修正阿你是不是先保留我們做文字修正阿你把文字修正拿來好不好42我們現在42我們有42了38換過來"},{"start":23907.074,"end":23921.183,"text":"這樣啦,是12齁,其實漢堡署長並沒有包庇署下啦這個蚊子要調整一下,大家講一下沒有關係沒有包庇啦怎麼會沒包庇蚊子調整一下嘛而且這個案子已經處分了嘛沒有啊,沒有處分啊包庇也沒處分啊"},{"start":23935.785,"end":23962.431,"text":"他沒有包庇阿 我們在政治只有這一點而已阿你怎麼證明他沒包庇你怎麼證明他沒有包庇沒有人知道他有包庇阿我才敢說阿我們有一些修正的文字我們是不是現在印給大家在42案對阿 38案是不是文子調整"},{"start":23969.407,"end":23994.1,"text":"有一個有一個桃子和波沒有不斷 已經斷掉了好 四十二 這個文字調整好了嗎 在哪裡好 這樣休息一下好了 這樣調整好好好 休息一下 好啦好啦 氣溫不要弄壞了啦"},{"start":23996.272,"end":23999.716,"text":"院長你可不可以請各單位先趕快溝通文字"},{"start":24010.478,"end":24017.08,"text":"不然這樣時間會拖得很晚沒有說保留的文章保留他們有修的是不是要叫人幫忙發"},{"start":24189.753,"end":24191.093,"text":"請看46案46案我們有修正一些文字"},{"start":24218.567,"end":24224.241,"text":"如果沒有意見就這個主席就文字修正通過好不好在大家桌上"},{"start":24232.675,"end":24234.337,"text":"46案文字修正通過48案組結議"},{"start":24252.094,"end":24271.406,"text":"這個48案如果要修,可能只留前面三行,其他全部刪掉?那就保留啦,那就保留啦等一下等一下,我都叫一台,兩行可以不可以?38保留齁?25也是嘛齁?現在是48?"},{"start":24281.689,"end":24282.029,"text":"48保留齁好那請看49"},{"start":24294.679,"end":24295.699,"text":"前面那個投入14億那個就留著"},{"start":24322.472,"end":24343.888,"text":"他後面有兩三 有三行文字 做刪除文字修正通過好不好 結構沒有改好 五十案主決議 文字修正通過五十一案 主決議"},{"start":24346.075,"end":24373.16,"text":"五十一就是 裡面對於居住正義有很多負面的描述 包括大撒幣所以我們是建議這個還有圖利財團等等的文字五十二有修正一些文字 是不是請大家參閱這是針對中中紀念堂要不要測儀隊"},{"start":24376.618,"end":24398.071,"text":"我們希望後面的文字能夠維持具體規劃這個部分可以保留這樣子嗎?對,就是請行政院,則請文化部來提出這個中正紀念堂轉型的書面報告三個月內就是不要書面報告,就是維持具體規劃可以嗎?"},{"start":24400.334,"end":24401.755,"text":"我們希望有具體的規劃"},{"start":24424.189,"end":24448.852,"text":"可以嗎規劃如果規劃繼續存在也是具體嗎對啊就具體規劃就是存在等一下等一下這是文化部的案啊這文化部的案子沒關係那就保留好那就保留好因為這個中央經濟黨以後的下一波轉型爭議不一致怎麼清楚那個還有整個修法包括中央經濟黨組織條例那個整套的"},{"start":24449.815,"end":24476.713,"text":"其實我們實例的這個文字都很保守了啦那如果說總召連這樣都不願意具體規劃都不願意 那我們就是保留我是講的比較完整一點出產條例我不予以指的清楚嘛那後面還有中央進行組織條例很多同項在一定有一隊 你把一隊弄走 同項還在 重點是同項嘛"},{"start":24479.755,"end":24479.915,"text":"主席"},{"start":24503.92,"end":24508.344,"text":"這幾案?90案 動輒100萬一般行政跟他報告齁 因為中選會因為有會議所以打電話來請假跟他報告一下"},{"start":24533.762,"end":24542.446,"text":"這不在集堅守投票的事情是啥是90案嘛 是不是現在開始90案 凍結100萬這個就是說是我們黨這邊提的啦因為不在集這個是已經是講非常非常的久"},{"start":24551.889,"end":24574.287,"text":"沒有啦有啦現在哪有可以不在即高型補回了嗎高型補回了是吧跟大家報告就是有關監索涉及者的這個投票最高型是已經補回掉原來這個北高型的裁定那許多地方就許多高等行政法院現在也是做"},{"start":24574.887,"end":24575.287,"text":"所以9393才是在講監獄的"},{"start":24609.148,"end":24620.472,"text":"對 但是90案是整個不在籍 不在籍這件事情其實現在我看我們不是只講監獄而已 是整體的 現在還是沒有辦法能做"},{"start":24622.038,"end":24643.687,"text":"而且公投法上也叫我們做這件事還是不能做這個案90案我們是不是本黨團這邊還是保留了這個要立法完成才可以規劃我知道但是現在就是一直沒有看到行政院或者是中選會現在的這個法案在我們面證委員會因為都主審了審了以後他們後來就沒有細審了"},{"start":24644.927,"end":24646.048,"text":"為至今中協會能為啟動執行黨掌政協商"},{"start":24665.188,"end":24684.037,"text":"要求推動該立法完成這個我們還在委員會,還沒出委員會沒有關係,我們就一案而已,就保留一下好了不是,文整調整我們可以來談一下沒有關係嗎?不用了啦,我們這個93我們可以那個啦,不要了,那90的話我們就保留這一案"},{"start":24687.432,"end":24714.94,"text":"9393939393939393939393939393939393939393"},{"start":24715.922,"end":24724.326,"text":"內文沒有關係啦 不要凍結啦內文沒有關係 提出時分報告沒有問題啊要不就是照我們的不然就表決一下也沒關係 一案而已啊改組決議我們沒有問題啦就錯不在中選會"},{"start":24739.4,"end":24747.563,"text":"就是說這個是整體政府的啦這已經談了太久太久了啦大家也有期待啦我們還是去看表決一下沒關係才一樣而已啊"},{"start":24756.294,"end":24763.864,"text":"國會是自主的他們是獨立局官他們沒有辦法給我們機會反正是我們的行政院不送來我們是沒有辦法審的已經在審了"},{"start":24770.993,"end":24771.994,"text":"行政院有提院門嗎?有阿有嘛"},{"start":24788.154,"end":24789.515,"text":"國民黨是林偉超總召"},{"start":24818.294,"end":24830.164,"text":"就其實這一案而已啦,我們就是這一案也是為大家爭取這個權利而已總召的意思是說這個是應該是在立法院啦那我們去圍欄中選會好像怪怪的我沒有意見啦煙有頭債有主這樣啦算是不要凍結嘛這跟我們沒關係嘛好,不然算了啦"},{"start":24842.352,"end":24842.873,"text":"文字就不用動了"},{"start":24856.325,"end":24874.651,"text":"免動節,文字有修正的免動節好,那就文字修正那就通過這樣給我們報告文字有幾個字可能要調整一下好,90案改組決議,文字修正好,沒有意見通過93案,並委員會決議辦理好,就這樣107案好,已經改組決議,這個已經陸委會,我們要讓他坐下來好了"},{"start":24886.488,"end":24904.082,"text":"事實上陸委會他們已經協調好了我們就主委坐下來我就不必再介紹了我們就107案現在我們就陸委會了陸委會已經協調好他只有兩個案我們很快的處理107案改組協議在哪裡107案組協議在哪裡"},{"start":24915.835,"end":24916.156,"text":"不當黨產處理委員會"},{"start":24949.681,"end":24959.107,"text":"現在主任委員林鋒正先生在列席我們就開始請大家看119案全數檢列有沒有意見保留再來請看"},{"start":24973.563,"end":24985.753,"text":"這個120案也是全數檢列這個我們改組決議好不好改組決議齁好不好可以啊你是全數刪除啊當然改組決議可以啊"},{"start":24990.876,"end":25016.657,"text":"好改組決議那文字修正那這樣那個文字說我們會是打擊一級建立綠色威權就跟事實就不一樣文字改組決議你都寫一個比較中肯的大家來看一看就可以你就把文字修正讓大家看一下好不好麻煩一下就文字要修正要讓大家看一下啦就這樣"},{"start":25017.551,"end":25044.295,"text":"好來 我們一百二十案改組決議文書修正那一種組決議怎麼可能我只修正一下 董事長那個文書修正讓大家看一下就這樣看一下大家如果沒有意見就通過好那再來一二二案因為是屬於通山我們通案處理好通山"},{"start":25045.209,"end":25074.09,"text":"他是通商科目嘛就通案處理比照幾檔再來是123案主決議123保留123保留保留好不當黨產處理員會一共現在四個案有兩案保留一個是通案處理一個就是主決議文字修正請修正以後讓大家看一下就可以了好"},{"start":25075.205,"end":25075.405,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25118.523,"end":25120.205,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25123.108,"end":25125.391,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25139.798,"end":25139.818,"text":"好"},{"start":25162.637,"end":25162.677,"text":"主席"},{"start":25179.253,"end":25180.394,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25197.009,"end":25201.092,"text":"好,來我宣布一下好不好"},{"start":25224.839,"end":25225.62,"text":"我們就繼續開會齁我宣佈一下"},{"start":25256.343,"end":25281.236,"text":"好來我宣布一下謝謝總商好來我宣布一下好好來有關於不當黨黨處理人會剛才已經有處理的20案就是保留嘛就是11919保留嘛那現在120我們改為保留"},{"start":25285.697,"end":25287.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25333.159,"end":25333.62,"text":"請大家看144"},{"start":25339.937,"end":25349.785,"text":"修正文字就是把調查報告公開化掉那是不是還是維持調查報告應該公開這樣才會同意"},{"start":25352.219,"end":25352.319,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25369.104,"end":25372.346,"text":"提案是報告要公開,現在針對公開這個部分可以嗎?"},{"start":25393.12,"end":25421.448,"text":"因為提給內政委員會就是已經就是公開的一個報告了因為現在需要內政部公開我們是正式提給立法院的內政委員會所以他其實就是已經是一個公開的一個處理所謂公開就是請你們就是在網站能夠把這個報告能夠對外公開啦不是說提供給內政委員會就算公開啦所以這個部分有一點不同"},{"start":25423.539,"end":25423.741,"text":"這個可以嗎?"},{"start":25426.919,"end":25428.86,"text":"二月二十四日提供內委會的報告"},{"start":25455.919,"end":25478.906,"text":"公開嘛,已經公開就好了嘛對,就是因為2月24號都已經提過了而且內政委員會也已經同意了好啊,那你們先這樣子改是,好那就編案,就144案就改為主決議那文字修正通過,對不對?對好,你同意了嘛,就照那個文字你們寫掉啊2月24號報告那個部分要公開就好了好,來"},{"start":25482.607,"end":25483.088,"text":"請大家看145案"},{"start":25504.909,"end":25505.57,"text":"文字有做修正"},{"start":25539.775,"end":25556.436,"text":"院長我再問一下剛剛那個報告要公開你們有2月24的報告還有其他的報告嗎該組決議我們就是2月24號提供有沒有其他的報告2月24號那個就是我們的行政調查是只有一份"},{"start":25562.003,"end":25583.983,"text":"是嗎?是只有一份嗎?跟委員報告,據我了解,我們好像有另外一個委員的部分,也是同樣的內容同樣的內容的報告?內容一模一樣的,是嗎?2月24號提供給內委會的報告就那麼一份嘛,跟外公開沒有關係"},{"start":25585.236,"end":25609.313,"text":"好我看這個剛才講的這個他不是沒有公開我是說公開的程度你還不滿意應該要在網站上也要有啦就這樣啦他事實上是已經有公開了啦齁那這個就你們在文字上修改一下等下看一下嘛齁好那接下來一訴五案齁那改組決議那文字修正那沒有意見通過好"},{"start":25615.304,"end":25640.95,"text":"好請看173案173是實例這邊的那個提案那這個主決因為把所有的文字幾乎五分之三都劃掉那這個部分我們先保留這個案子和前面那個案子一樣意思是一樣嗎報告是一樣的內容是一樣的"},{"start":25642.987,"end":25650.01,"text":"跟144一樣嘛 144都已經改了那一樣公開嘛 就併144就好了可以嗎 併144啦好 那我們黨團這邊就是兩案現在都保留啦144跟173都保留剛才講好了"},{"start":25665.29,"end":25666.472,"text":"委員我們已經把文字修好了"},{"start":25676.468,"end":25679.229,"text":"二月二十四號的報告太過簡短草率所以我們希望有"},{"start":25699.438,"end":25721.936,"text":"公布你們比較完整的報告那你們既然也不願意去說明清楚那我們認為這樣子不能夠呈現事實所以就是保留我沒有花很多時間你不能拗他嘛你不能拗人家嘛你搞這個搞那個我剛才求證說到底有沒有另外一份報告啊那如果如果是有的話"},{"start":25724.818,"end":25737.803,"text":"我們還是希望內政部能夠公開那現在因為你的文字我們沒有辦法接受所以這邊先保留我再跟你補充一下我們就是2月24號給內委會的報告沒有其他的報告 這第一點第二點"},{"start":25744.427,"end":25761.686,"text":"這個案子其實地檢署已經講得很清楚並不是內政部洩漏出去的而是在外部的一個使用機關所以我們內政部已經就我們的權責的部分已經做了完整的一個調查也把這個報告跟內委會來做說明了"},{"start":25762.347,"end":25762.467,"text":"主席"},{"start":25774.452,"end":25793.559,"text":"謝謝部長的回應,不過因為邱總召這邊剛剛我們有聯繫所以我們針對這樣子又把我們的文字劃掉那是不是可以完整的呈現我們的文字那如果是這樣子的話我們就可以...他已經完整呈現了,你...就不要把文字劃掉不是,你現在文字把我們劃掉那麼多"},{"start":25798.661,"end":25798.822,"text":"陳如玉議員"},{"start":25806.238,"end":25820.109,"text":"因為委員你可以看一下原本的文字是說內政部迄今尚未公布行政調查報告但實際上我們是修正的文字是說在112年2月24號我們有把會議證資料外寫的書面報告送給這個內政委員會那是因為這個文字"},{"start":25830.657,"end":25830.697,"text":"主席"},{"start":25851.888,"end":25852.068,"text":"謝謝部長的回答"},{"start":25864.664,"end":25882.895,"text":"我們現在已經討論一個多小時了 只有通過差不多20個案而已那我們還是要加快我們的腳步144案 那就可以了 剛才陳委員已經同意了就主決議 那我就修正通過 173案就保留就這樣確定 來 這個案"},{"start":25893.049,"end":25922.405,"text":"在202案改組協議那這個已經有溝通了吧好啦就改組協議沒有意見通過204案改組協議那沒有意見通過好這樣內政部告一段落好來國防外交在哪裡長江左右來的更好"},{"start":25925.196,"end":25945.094,"text":"來來來來謝謝"},{"start":25970.448,"end":25984.977,"text":"外交部部長因為因公出國,所以就有呂淳次長代表他有事前打電話要我轉告大家來請假"},{"start":25992.13,"end":26019.859,"text":"再介紹一遍好了啦就列席的首長就是外交部政務處長李純先生好來好謝謝那現在我們就看從這裡吧第九案第九案測案好就這樣那再來就是五十案主決議文字修正那沒有進行通過好第一再來就請看六十八案主決議"},{"start":26021.936,"end":26022.117,"text":"國防部"},{"start":26038.09,"end":26038.87,"text":"六十八案主決議"},{"start":26066.857,"end":26069.257,"text":"新版文字修正"},{"start":26095.39,"end":26096.691,"text":"保留是我們喊的還是你喊的建議建議"},{"start":26122.455,"end":26122.736,"text":"主席"},{"start":26132.312,"end":26132.472,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26162.612,"end":26163.033,"text":"請問您的修正文字在哪裡?"},{"start":26191.079,"end":26219.082,"text":"來請大家看一下90案的文字修正看大家有沒有什麼意見就說主決議就改為主決議那文字做修正好 院長我們還是保留保留喔對好那90案就保留好那國防部結束謝謝上將謝謝院長好來接下來喬武喬武委員會"},{"start":26225.207,"end":26235.312,"text":"喬文瑞現在列席的所長是副委員長阮昭雄先生那我們就先看157案"},{"start":26253.875,"end":26254.195,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26272.953,"end":26274.694,"text":"首先就是國外會主管的部分"},{"start":26308.523,"end":26326.954,"text":"國安會我介紹一下列席所長國安會主任委員 國民信先生跟他報告國安會一共有兩個案請大家看第五案來看一下來"},{"start":26338.716,"end":26355.874,"text":"已經溝通完成了嗎對不對總召辦公室是說本案保留你們不是溝通完成嗎溝通完成決定保留沒關係啦 因為表哥說目前安排過啦"},{"start":26358.973,"end":26373.708,"text":"委員長不好意思我們確定一下因為剛剛那個行政院的那個第21案、第30案還有中選會的那兩個案子原則上我們保留我們不同意該組決議"},{"start":26375.663,"end":26376.884,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":26401.386,"end":26402.047,"text":"在內政委員會"},{"start":26437.199,"end":26437.439,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":26464.568,"end":26466.689,"text":"第六案是時代力量你們有修正嗎 不然就是同意嗎"},{"start":26486.267,"end":26511.052,"text":"剪列20%怎麼可能可以我們是希望可以並委員會凍結啦好啦並委員會啦我們是認為就是議後特別預算3800億之後呢我們的經濟成長率只剩下1.42%嘛是14年來新低那現在剪列的部分我們至少要剪列1%可以嗎"},{"start":26517.611,"end":26519.974,"text":"三千九百二十六萬 減一趴不行"},{"start":26535.26,"end":26559.432,"text":"剪列1%剪列20%修改剪列1%柯木可以自調嗎柯木就自行調整剛才第五案是保留我再重申一遍第六案是改為剪列1%然後柯木自行調整"},{"start":26565.851,"end":26566.211,"text":"國話會告一段落"},{"start":26592.332,"end":26598.655,"text":"那接下來就請經濟部介紹列席的所長介紹列席的所長經濟部部長王美花女士現在就請大家看65案"},{"start":26624.548,"end":26629.131,"text":"65案改成凍結5%這個已經簽名蓋章凍結5%沒有一線通過129案129並130案130案的部分減列1000萬科目自行調整這個也簽名蓋章了這很大方"},{"start":26654.791,"end":26676.018,"text":"一二九案並一三零案那一三零案減列一千萬就是原來一三零案是減列五千萬現在改為減列一千萬我這樣講沒有錯吧那就兩案都通過一二九呢一二九並一三零兩個加起來一千嘛就合併"},{"start":26680.168,"end":26680.468,"text":"致命報告"},{"start":26710.652,"end":26725.404,"text":"市議院報告沒有意見就通過141遵照辦理141就是增列一百萬那就通過那請看146凍結一百六十萬"},{"start":26735.122,"end":26747.147,"text":"剪列改為凍結對不對是好146原來剪列160萬現在改為凍結160萬好沒有意見通過再來請看195案195改為凍結600萬好195原來是剪列600萬現在改為凍結600萬沒有意見通過好來請看207案"},{"start":26762.278,"end":26770.122,"text":"207改為凍結100萬207改為凍結100萬沒有意見通過經濟部就告一段落院長我跟部長講一下部長那個六輕拋砂那個可不可以一個月內來提一個環差請那個工業局"},{"start":26788.473,"end":26788.493,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":26834.047,"end":26844.856,"text":"現在介紹列席的所長 農業部代理部長陳俊契先生那我們現在請大家看256案"},{"start":26848.372,"end":26855.494,"text":"252案改為主決議 文字修正 民運縣市通過253案我們還是希望能夠不要簡略 然後改成主決議 並修正文字這個案子這個案子就是因為我們也聽過邱總召 邱委員他"},{"start":26877.967,"end":26881.249,"text":"我跟委員說明 因為整個查核的部分 以農產品價一法 它是由縣市 地方縣市政府去查處財閥的部分"},{"start":26904.65,"end":26904.71,"text":"保留"},{"start":26925.165,"end":26925.866,"text":"二五七案"},{"start":26950.927,"end":26955.409,"text":"257案也是建請能夠改成主決議並修正文字257案就是凍結500萬提書面報告做文書修正"},{"start":26978.333,"end":27005.191,"text":"來,280案那280案也是漸行改成主決議的部分那昨天有跟委員說明齁,這個部分我想我們至少動一趴啦,可以嗎?因為一趴就三億至少動一趴我跟委員報告齁,融化條例這個318億裡面﹐很多是補充基金的﹐還有我們冷鏈,非常重要的冷鏈還有那個動物保護的這些環境的一個建設然後希望這個部分,年初一開始就可能就要去執行了"},{"start":27005.931,"end":27007.211,"text":"希望能夠改成主決議農業比較弱勢農業比較弱勢動500"},{"start":27031.345,"end":27056.843,"text":"反正你交報告就可以解凍啦這個沒有說沒有簡列嘛我們現在就凍五百那凍了書面報告就可以解凍了嘛好那如果凍五百我們要修正部分的文字要修正要調整好凍五百五百萬提書面報告然後文字修正好就這樣文字要修正喔好"},{"start":27059.628,"end":27087.773,"text":"沒有意見就這樣通過再來是299案主決議299案也是感謝謝宜旺 謝書記長剛剛有同意做文字的修正改成主決議那就299案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過304案主決議304部分我們希望說能夠改成於三個月內向立法院經濟委員會報告"},{"start":27089.378,"end":27111.793,"text":"304跟332是吳怡丁跟李桂民委員的提案那他們要求保留那我們是不是就保留那314是總召的案子那因為總召的案子是關於農業部的宣傳費的部分那這部分我們今天早上是不是已經討論過通案的部分是不是就按照通案"},{"start":27114.995,"end":27125.664,"text":"那314就車案改到通案 併到通案區就好了那304就保留那3321就保留那314就併通案辦理"},{"start":27137.447,"end":27140.369,"text":"農委會去告一段落 農益部去告一段落好 謝謝委員"},{"start":27164.799,"end":27165.88,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27196.596,"end":27216.646,"text":"我們現在就進行文化部主管的提案那首先介紹 類席的首長 文化部部長史哲先生好 謝謝 那我們接下來就來看228案那228案是改組決議嘛齁"},{"start":27218.773,"end":27244.379,"text":"就是少動一點啦好不好少動一點就是一百萬然後交報告就可以了同意修改文字啦有修改文字可以啦就是動一百可以嗎你交報告就可以解動阿可是只有修改文字阿這裡不是改組決議嗎改組決議了嘛已經改組決議了阿你們已經簽字了阿"},{"start":27246.358,"end":27250.602,"text":"228案就改組決議 文字修正沒有意見通過229案就保留 對不對"},{"start":27275.391,"end":27275.571,"text":"主席"},{"start":27298.342,"end":27304.425,"text":"主協議 作文字修正 明日會見修正通過"},{"start":27326.394,"end":27326.834,"text":"二十七組決議"},{"start":27343.343,"end":27347.864,"text":"主席"},{"start":27372.779,"end":27378.764,"text":"現在完整會議那是否我們這樣還有表示說如果NCC對他的言論不同的話就有什麼打算?"},{"start":27437.671,"end":27460.477,"text":"我們繼續 現在要討論國家通信傳播委員會主管的部分首先介紹 列席的首長國家通信傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥先生接下來請大家看 第一案第一案有沒有意見"},{"start":27467.609,"end":27493.709,"text":"有修正的在哪裡可不可以有修正的文字嗎可不可以並委員結一半禮好啦 並委員結一半禮好了"},{"start":27495.199,"end":27495.919,"text":"第9案保留"},{"start":27520.387,"end":27525.469,"text":"第四案徹北會徹北會你一案就好了嘛你總要徹北會怎麼兩個案子啊你看清楚啦沒有兩個案保留"},{"start":27550.285,"end":27555.847,"text":"對阿你那個三個案那如果有問題我們再請那個NCC來辦公室那就先保留阿先保留 院長保留這個都是特別費"},{"start":27575.595,"end":27577.636,"text":"十四的保留十三案的保留"},{"start":27602.728,"end":27630.128,"text":"那十四案是不是要並委會接辦理那個民眾黨來這個十四案的部分我們要保留十四十五都保留都要保留都一樣嘛都一樣就好了保留保留我們表決的時候大家不要有精神對不對來十六案保留十六案謝司機長"},{"start":27632.332,"end":27633.052,"text":"19案 主結議20案 主結議21案 主結議"},{"start":27663.891,"end":27664.391,"text":"二十二案組結議"},{"start":27692.501,"end":27692.902,"text":"歐四案"},{"start":27713.251,"end":27715.012,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27743.905,"end":27773.003,"text":"接下來國家運輸安全調查委員會國家運輸安全調查委員會主管的部分介紹類型的首長國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德先生"},{"start":27775.36,"end":27798.855,"text":"接下來我們就請大家看31案31案我們可以同意3案最後一句話我們事實上政府保守程序已經在做了"},{"start":27799.397,"end":27799.998,"text":"最後一句是拿幾個字"},{"start":27826.968,"end":27829.149,"text":"並經本院交通委員會 同意厚實的動資"},{"start":27855.553,"end":27855.873,"text":"主席"},{"start":27871.243,"end":27896.743,"text":"好啦好啦還是保留啊沒有啦沒有保留啊沒有留也沒關係啦使得動之四個字要留下來啦好 同意我以為你是說後面那個計算掉是一百萬算掉就是到動之就同意那兩個字拿掉就對了好啦"},{"start":27897.352,"end":27899.774,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27932.014,"end":27932.676,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":28175.916,"end":28176.276,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28218.725,"end":28223.388,"text":"現在要進行交通部主管的部分現在就請大家看75案"},{"start":28231.465,"end":28258.75,"text":"七十五案七十五案跟院長報告這個已經跟委員這邊溝通了他同意改組決議文那文字是最後我們有書面資料那個等於倒數第五行開始之後刪掉然後文字改為請交通部持續關注道路交通安全議題好同意改組決議好有了齁同意同意好七十五案就修組決議文字修正那沒有意見就通過好來七十七案"},{"start":28261.67,"end":28288.46,"text":"77案這邊就是還是要動啦然後不併委員會不併委員會就是不要經過委員會同意後使得動作就刪掉那幾個字好是併委員會解一半你們對不對沒有因為剛剛陳委員希望獨立動啦那獨立動的話就是不要後面有話說經委員會同意因為同意的話變成要專案報告就不是書面報告了"},{"start":28290.417,"end":28298.183,"text":"第七十七案委員會已經動了一億三千萬那你再動一億三千萬好像你這個是六億的十分之一啦先保留啦"},{"start":28311.317,"end":28336.074,"text":"再跟蘇董交通一下我可不可以說明一下跟我的報告就是說你這裡擬計書面報告OK啦我們是說金本願交通委員會同意這個是刪掉就擬計書面報告使得動之這樣好不好這個就是那個動決就沒有問題嘛我覺得我們就寫好啦那就這樣文字修正嘛就這樣"},{"start":28338.038,"end":28340.98,"text":"本院交通委員會同意那個不要刪"},{"start":28365.634,"end":28393.593,"text":"還要經過同意嗎那個不要刪這樣子好嗎可是要董事長這個不要刪一般都是這樣子啊一般都是寫提示文報告使得動之啊這個文字不要刪這樣子不是跟那個文報我們的在交通委員會也都一樣不會寫什麼跟經交通委員會同意這個本來就是自私就這樣不同意的話還會再處理嗎我們所有的都是這樣就是書文報告使得動之都這樣都這樣啊就不是那個是這樣"},{"start":28395.287,"end":28396.948,"text":"檢列50萬 凍結五分之一"},{"start":28424.181,"end":28433.347,"text":"好 那就保留啦好 來 謝謝交通部就到此告一段落 好 來接下來事發部介紹列席的所長"},{"start":28455.496,"end":28464.109,"text":"數位發展部部長唐鳳部長來接下來就請看249案改正列五千萬元"},{"start":28473.683,"end":28497.556,"text":"有溝通嗎?有,這些是賴委員有簽字改增列五千萬元,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見就通過請問一下蘇發部你們做得到嗎?增列五千萬是不是跟委員會合併加五千萬元?委員會兩千嘛你變成五千啊?做不到議組所長嗎?"},{"start":28500.276,"end":28508.231,"text":"應該是可以做不到也沒關係啦,反正這個是期待值而已啦做不到也沒關係,又有議組所長的問題"},{"start":28512.278,"end":28512.859,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28537.005,"end":28538.306,"text":"改正列三千萬人266案通山科目"},{"start":28556.269,"end":28580.314,"text":"有溝通那刪減的部分沒有問題那就是因為它是科目可以自行調整所以我們建議說可以拿到這個委辦會本來會刪嘛它是屬於通商科目啦通商的啦對對對通商會處理這樣是是好謝謝那這樣我們就通案辦理好不好通商科目就通案辦理通商科目比這個多欸可能會比這個多齁我發現比這個多了來"},{"start":28584.861,"end":28585.221,"text":"改為主決議"},{"start":28614.838,"end":28614.858,"text":"269案"},{"start":28630.56,"end":28658.261,"text":"剪列一百萬那這個科目能不能在一般行政 行政項目下來調整這樣啦齁 二六九案 剪列一百萬年科目執行調整就這樣好好 每日券就這樣來 二七零案剪列一千五百萬 對不對有溝通嗎等一下 等一下等一下 來就 從"},{"start":28661.761,"end":28663.343,"text":"委員長這樣可以嗎?科目有沒有一樣啊?"},{"start":28683.387,"end":28684.567,"text":"總數達到1500就是賴氏堡委員要求的這個就是"},{"start":28709.711,"end":28734.658,"text":"應該是把委員都放在專業施設心堂呢報期年案就等於併委員會那這個剪列一共剪列1500萬就這樣就加一個併委員會結議那個就是說委員會全部的就是剪列1500萬總數"},{"start":28738.794,"end":28750.182,"text":"主席長這樣可以嗎可以所以還是你同意才有用不是我同意通過二七四案改檢列250萬元這有資訊服務費"},{"start":28754.895,"end":28763.705,"text":"我們科目希望能夠提在工作計畫向下來簡略科目執行調整在科目計畫範圍內調整科目執行調整 但是用兩個字會不會"},{"start":28772.594,"end":28774.695,"text":"你會不會寫 寫清楚要寫清楚嗎我看科目自行調整這樣會流淡性他上面寫科目自調嘛"},{"start":28800.615,"end":28804.417,"text":"這個有沒有過通啊保留這個五千萬不得了好保留"},{"start":28832.031,"end":28847.505,"text":"好來,280案這個一樣從這個大科目來自行調整好,那檢列1000科目自行調整對不對112,減500好不好哪一個12280啊減500對啊,他才112而已"},{"start":28861.462,"end":28889.853,"text":"他委員會是多少?委員會是一二五百五百就好了有沒有人檢過的?這就溝通過了,一千啊,減一千怎麼樣?同意簡列還是?你們當初為什麼同意簡列?"},{"start":28891.175,"end":28894.499,"text":"可以嗎希望能夠少減一點那800好了這個鄉府已經減1550在這裡一直減"},{"start":28905.152,"end":28911.196,"text":"前面有撿一個千五啦他答應賴氏保沒有啦 減比較久的啦可以啦六百好啦五百啦 你剛才就說五百啦五百啦"},{"start":28923.303,"end":28928.089,"text":"我是幫賴氏堡委員講的阿不然你讓人家沒民主 要答應賴氏堡阿你現在阿現在答應一千萬阿現在我們願意五百五百啦 五百"},{"start":28939.904,"end":28940.945,"text":"沒有建議就通過"},{"start":28969.051,"end":28989.075,"text":"來再來是285案你們都同意啊那是法委員沒有啦那是法委員叫的方式不是私人行政啊不是 他們都同意啊他們都已經同意了啊我給大家報告"},{"start":28994.183,"end":29016.018,"text":"這個委員會他已經有凍結十分之一阿這邊再簡歷阿你跟他不理黨阿不然委員會就好了阿放多少啦好啦 兩百五啦 一樣啦兩百啦 五百五二百五不好啦 兩百就好了阿二百五就是你剛剛提的 什麼二百五不好你這人齁好啦好啦 兩百五十萬啦你講就可以了 兩百五十萬來來來293"},{"start":29024.014,"end":29036.065,"text":"292是動輒十分之一因為委員會已經動輒十分之一保留292就保留293兵285案處理兵285兵285就兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285�"},{"start":29054.069,"end":29057.733,"text":"凍結十分之一那委員會已經凍結兩千萬啦並委員會改書面好了"},{"start":29077.109,"end":29081.895,"text":"這也很麻煩,因為他們都自己去簽名了那種情境我可以想像出來"},{"start":29085.009,"end":29114.087,"text":"總結總結總結"},{"start":29114.673,"end":29121.035,"text":"委員會已經凍結兩千萬這個十分之一就等於五千萬委員會有兩千萬就等於是凍結七千萬數目蠻大的"},{"start":29134.804,"end":29135.564,"text":"好 凍結1000萬 沒有意見通過好"},{"start":29165.117,"end":29182.296,"text":"那322通商科目就通案處理好不好接下來就是325也是通商科目我們就通案處理那326通商科目也通案處理330改檢列700萬那"},{"start":29185.731,"end":29203.258,"text":"委員會已經減列三千萬,又凍結十分之一,那大家要不要再評估看看?改組決議就好了,好不好?哪一條?委員會已經減三千了啊?330案委員會減三千又凍結十分之一,這個改組決議就可以了"},{"start":29203.865,"end":29206.486,"text":"問題是蘇發布他自己去同意的千五萬 十萬 百萬是七億"},{"start":29226.092,"end":29246.665,"text":"像這個知安他們也應該不要同意啊因為知安對民眾很重要欸結果他們自己去同意那我們要怎麼辦你不能為行政單位卸責欸民進黨團應該的啊因為那時候答應的時候人會想說書記長會不會幫我們增加啊"},{"start":29254.197,"end":29254.517,"text":"製安不應該減"},{"start":29275.836,"end":29283.319,"text":"這是行政部門應該說明的嘛為什麼你們去那裡同意 變成我們在這裏要替他們說明跟委員報告因為我們產業署這個是給產業的輔導的經費啦委員會的部分已經減三千萬然後動十分之一如果變委員會的話對產業我們希望多爭取一點經費 以上報告"},{"start":29304.891,"end":29305.031,"text":"委員會結議辦理"},{"start":29331.109,"end":29333.37,"text":"那免疫線就通過好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":29385.438,"end":29399.279,"text":"好 我們繼續好不好我們兩點半 到現在已經超過兩個小時了大家滿辛苦的 來 要休息喔"},{"start":29403.789,"end":29406.191,"text":"人事行政總署 介紹歷史所長 人事長蘇俊榮先生案號22"},{"start":29430.092,"end":29430.372,"text":"國事論壇拜告"},{"start":29461.891,"end":29478.986,"text":"司法院主管介紹司法院秘書長吳山隆先生還有台灣高等法院院長高金枝女士我們現在就請大家看92案"},{"start":29488.141,"end":29500.314,"text":"有進一步的消息嗎有溝通啦有溝 沒有通他說明天早上就會通了啦這些都保留啦"},{"start":29502.745,"end":29518.238,"text":"那這樣就就請保留他說還給他想一下,他明天就會不必啦,我們先保留,又保留,又保結就算了這個讓他突顯一下,為什麼可以這樣搞那背後的演藝嘛,讓他公知,讓社會知道"},{"start":29519.319,"end":29520.32,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29548.717,"end":29573.825,"text":"考試院主管的部分那我介紹列席的首長 前書部部長 周志鴻先生來 那請大家看124案改為主決議 有沒有意見哪裡124案好 同意好 同意喔 就有溝通啦 有溝有通好 那就通過 124案就通過好 謝謝"},{"start":29575.197,"end":29575.217,"text":"143案"},{"start":29593.816,"end":29599.622,"text":"這個案謝謝謝委員已經撤案了謝謝謝委員那個院長我跟秘書長講一下秘書長我上個月質詢的案子後來有跟監委、市監委討論"},{"start":29611.813,"end":29639.239,"text":"的確是你們之前監察院的調查有疏失那個委員我跟您報告一下那個案子已經發過三次新聞稿說明是認知不同而已不是監委有疏失這個非常清楚報告內容是有錯的這個也不是我能處理的他也會重新再審理所以這個部分還是要跟秘書長公開說明我回去轉達你不用轉達我是讓你知道"},{"start":29639.699,"end":29640.32,"text":"法務部主管"},{"start":29663.151,"end":29685.866,"text":"那法務部部長因為另有公務那他趕不過來有打電話來請假向他報告一下好來 那我們現在就介紹列席的首長就是法務部政府司長蔡碧中先生我們就請大家看211案怎麼樣"},{"start":29692.899,"end":29701.483,"text":"主席主席總召211案211保留213案保留211 213保留好那謝謝我們就告一段落需要解釋嗎要不要解釋"},{"start":29723.954,"end":29725.095,"text":"衛環衛環衛環衛環衛環衛環幾個案6個案6個案好來有沒有溝通"},{"start":29749.386,"end":29760.116,"text":"有公別通 還是已經溝通完畢有啦 通山通山 至少有兩個通山改凍結250萬至少有三個案"},{"start":29785.009,"end":29787.13,"text":"報告主席 我們這個是有修改文字"},{"start":29814.409,"end":29814.769,"text":"1、2、8保留"},{"start":29843.726,"end":29851.652,"text":"131有修正文字已經有簽名131主決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":29872.003,"end":29896.484,"text":"148組決議做文字修正沒有異證就修正通過212是通商 213是通商 這兩個案我們就通案處理好不好一起處理 邱委員的跟我的案子"},{"start":29898.986,"end":29917.442,"text":"我們還是希望他們在做監管營 全國的監管營把所有的資料傳到營端 擔心資安風險所以還是希望他們做好社會溝通 然後再來解凍"},{"start":29918.423,"end":29928.975,"text":"所以不是要他上來預算沒有你做好社會公司來解凍這個案子就不必搞了沒有這樣 他們已經在溝通了那個資安的問題不會有問題大家都還很擔心"},{"start":29934.941,"end":29955.568,"text":"你要 他們溝通我們沒有意見但是不是溝通好再來解凍然後也不可能那這個案子就沒有了吧我們常常有這種解凍案啊委員會常常在處理解凍案怎麼沒有咧這麼多解凍之後然後去執行啊凍結就是這個意思啊這不是我發明的"},{"start":29958.109,"end":29982.997,"text":"總召你怎麼這樣講不是啦 你要凍多少啦對啦凍多少嘛凍多少啦現在是全數喔你全數凍結的所以啊 現在我就是說 這樣啦溝通啦 凍百分之八十讓他們開始執行然後就去溝通這樣啦 你拿啦 你拿啦我怎麼拿啦 大家再來會啊 溝通多少要凍結多少這個案子喔是要敦促他們去做社會溝通"},{"start":29984.037,"end":30002.555,"text":"現在人家在看怎麼說的我都知道來源我很清楚人家都知道但是這個有一個很重要的事情就是說這不只有一萬方面的事情加長端的你要考慮一下你要把這個制度弄好對不對"},{"start":30003.235,"end":30004.696,"text":"中央政府總預算部分．．"},{"start":30025.845,"end":30026.926,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":30048.643,"end":30048.763,"text":"暫時保留"},{"start":30073.024,"end":30089.568,"text":"期待我們四個黨團繼續溝通那看在什麼時候 三天內還是怎麼樣就是提出一個共同的提案出來這樣好不好好 處理之前處理之前嘛 不行就處理 要MV處理嘛好不好 那就這樣嘛我們就把它列入會記錄好不好好 這個才是列入會記錄這樣喔好 那就這樣 好來"},{"start":30102.478,"end":30110.888,"text":"那請看二二一案要不要再聲明一下"},{"start":30115.616,"end":30117.918,"text":"因為小孩子是不會哭訴、不會講話"},{"start":30134.907,"end":30153.924,"text":"尤其是我們的部分的話,托嬰是兩歲以下的所以這是為了保護兒童的權益那第二個,這個監管其實是對雙方都有利因為我們的數字是這樣子從開始我們要求修法之後,要求都設監視器之後"},{"start":30155.345,"end":30169.612,"text":"到現在為止有問題的立案的是114案是有不當對待的案子其中有10%是掉入境帶的時候是掉不到"},{"start":30172.398,"end":30188.184,"text":"所以我們才會起這個議就是說需要有一個立案終止都同意啦我們也認同而且保護我們這個兒童的這個權益還有但是現在重點是資訊的管理資安的管理還有國人的疑慮這個部分"},{"start":30190.665,"end":30217.842,"text":"這個因為老實講 個資外洩的問題已經太嚴重了而且現在網路的駭客非常厲害那如果這些小朋友的這些被監管的資訊被不當利用到其他的網站或是其他的案文的系統現在就有在錄影我知道 所以我們今天已經決定了嘛我們這三個黨我們在用會之前我們會這個案子我們會支持 我們會支持好不好"},{"start":30219.567,"end":30225.671,"text":"現在環境部介紹列席的所長環境部部長薛富聖先生"},{"start":30253.034,"end":30254.936,"text":"好 只有一個案 那請大家看18 看221案"},{"start":30260.092,"end":30286.093,"text":"這個溝通我現在才看到文字那我要說明說明就是前環保署的一級主管長崎信燒那陳欽仁都有跟前環保署陳情那前環保署長就是張子敬先生他都只有口頭告誡"},{"start":30287.216,"end":30316.227,"text":"那只有口頭告誡當然現在環境部有調查對不對那有調查我們希望能夠針對調查報告的處理的情形要對外公布嘛我想很多受害人現在即使這個案子已經調查但是他們對於加害者還有對於包庇的情形我想一輩子都沒有辦法走出來所以"},{"start":30316.808,"end":30317.932,"text":"本席只是針對這個調查報告要求要"},{"start":30322.443,"end":30348.861,"text":"發布新聞稿那發布新聞稿現在環境部把第一行刪掉了本席認為這個不應該啦所以不應該現在環境部還有整個執政黨包括院長還要為包庇者來包庇所以這個第一行的文字請不要刪除這樣我們就可以同意以上說明"},{"start":30352.96,"end":30376.306,"text":"改動捷250萬有意見嗎第一行沒有意見第一行的文字就是保留不要刪除那這樣有沒有問題我們還是建議可以做文字修正後面的文字修正我們可以接受第一行的文字請不要刪除現在對文字有意見你們黨團有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":30381.651,"end":30407.625,"text":"保留 那就保留啦我想那個柯總召你這邊要保留我剛剛已經說明的很清楚非常多的受害者針對張子敬前署長的包庇他們到現在還在看醫生還在陷入被害的情境中那現在只是公布這個調查的情形把張子敬前署長的"},{"start":30409.217,"end":30411.02,"text":"處理情形發布新聞稿"},{"start":30415.879,"end":30440.969,"text":"我們接受發布新聞稿我們會做對阿你接受你就不要保留阿你就讓這個對阿你要調整對阿我們只是說調整同意阿那就是第一行的文字等一下第一行的文字就是不要刪除阿就這樣子而已阿我們其他的接受阿你聽一下這個想法齁"},{"start":30441.989,"end":30456.316,"text":"其實完全都同意應該要嚴格的調查而且調查的結果要完全公開但至於到底事實是如何我覺得可以留待調查的結果調查完跟公開大家就一清二楚調查完了報告院長都看過了部長他們都看過現在就是針對已經調查完了要"},{"start":30462.919,"end":30487.577,"text":"公布這個要發布信務稿說明這樣而已阿所以就是在這邊阿所以這是同意大家同意這件事情阿只是說第一行的這個文字不要刪掉而已阿有鑒於有鑒於前環保署長張子晉涉嫌包庇環保署之郎之性騷案這個部分不要刪除阿就這一句而已阿這是事實阿為什麼要把事實刪除呢陳委員我來說"},{"start":30491.46,"end":30520.352,"text":"我來講幾句話就是說第一點就是說還是我們如果要那個通過還是要黨團要有共識不過我在這邊講如果像這樣的話我也是贊成要嚴辦嚴查但是我們的國家整個體制我們是民主政治它有你可以用刑事的處刑事處分可以有民事的處分可以有行政的處分那也可以"},{"start":30521.452,"end":30537.377,"text":"找機會到 就是說在國會 針對我們這個部長 現在的經營部長來跟他執行 但是我說在預算裡面好像怪怪的那他只要發布新聞稿就可以解凍啊"},{"start":30538.357,"end":30539.258,"text":"只要把調查報告﹑內容說明他們怎麼處理這個事情就這樣而已啊沒有再質詢"},{"start":30557.595,"end":30559.076,"text":"因為沒有共識我們本案就保留好 謝謝大家"},{"start":30587.53,"end":30608.975,"text":"我們今天的案 沒了吧 告一段落通山的來 通山的就開始處理來通山的那個比例 審查的程序這個事要先讀一下嗎那我先跟大家報告齁 來"},{"start":30622.104,"end":30625.41,"text":"這是要給通商的同僚講還是先講"},{"start":30630.02,"end":30658.626,"text":"好來先講好來113年度中央政府總預算案朝野黨團協商討論程序及決定事項一討論程序協商順序為先行討論通案決議再依審查分配表所排定各委員會稅入稅出部分送院會處理項目之順序討論最後再再行討論機密預算部分以協商各自單位如無"},{"start":30659.286,"end":30676.36,"text":"未決之提案則不再處理二、決定事項一、113年度中央政府總預算案含機密部分審查總報告所列未送院會處理項目除確有自在難行再協商一、協商結論通過外其餘均照個人會審查會議皆通過"},{"start":30681.124,"end":30703.205,"text":"至送宴會處理項目﹐協商有結論者﹐依協商結論通過﹐協商未獲結論者﹐交付表決﹐並依表決結果通過﹐令黨團協商之凍結內容﹐經並委員會凍結案處理﹐依協商結論通過者﹐經不再依宣讀扁中依依序明"},{"start":30705.468,"end":30726.563,"text":"113年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算（其受及副屬單位預算營業（及非營業部分均佔照例是副屬單位預算審議確定或再行調整3.113年度中央政府總預算案稅出正式別部分（隨同稅出"},{"start":30729.571,"end":30742.776,"text":"．機關別審議結果予以調整．構委員會審查結果含禁閉部分．協商結論均應依通案決議辦理．不再逐一與構機關協商結果續名．構機關均應確實依通案決議何時分別刪減．為構委員會審查刪減訴"},{"start":30751.62,"end":30761.891,"text":"如欲通案決議刪減比例﹐以個人會審查刪減數為準﹐未達通案決議刪減比例﹐則增加檢列不足之數接下來"},{"start":30781.907,"end":30785.39,"text":"113年度總預算案 針對各機關所屬通案刪減用途別項目 預理如下"},{"start":30800.562,"end":30816.674,"text":"1.檢列大陸地區理會2.檢列國外理會及出國教育訓練會不含現行法律明文規定支出3.檢列委辦會不含現行法律條文規定支出4.檢列房屋建築養護會、車輛及辦公區養護會、壽司及機械設備養護會"},{"start":30826.381,"end":30844.733,"text":"5.檢列軍事裝備及授書3%6.檢列一般事務會﹐不含現行法律明論規定支出3%7.檢列媒體政策及業務宣導會﹐不含農委會防檢局﹐衛福部局管局及一千萬以下機關25%這邊還寫農委會這個我改一下農業部"},{"start":30863.777,"end":30869.641,"text":"8.檢列售備及投資不含現行法律評論規定支出資產作價投資及增資台定公司9."},{"start":30869.641,"end":30872.003,"text":"檢列對國內團體資建築及政府機關建築補助不含現行法律評論規定支出"},{"start":30880.329,"end":30894.358,"text":"10.檢列對地方政府的補助﹐不然現行法律明文規定支出﹐及一般性補助款4%11.全市1至6項﹐允許在業務費科目範圍內調整12.全市9至10項﹐允許在將補助費科目範圍內調整14.若有透視困難﹐無法一上該原則調整則﹐可提出其他可刪減項目﹐兼主計總製"},{"start":30909.007,"end":30932.086,"text":"選核同意後予以代替補足十四如總刪減數為答案兩百九十九億元瓜府扣除增資台電公司及撥補勞保基金後約百分之一點一二瓜府另予補足這案今年差不多吧大家都手上都有嗎也就說要兩百九九億吧"},{"start":30937.412,"end":30955.545,"text":"主席只要不夠他另外補另外調整好OK好那就沒有意見就通過了好來再來寫這個選項結論的參考決定事項都一樣這個決定事項都一樣選項結論的草稿"},{"start":30963.971,"end":30992.615,"text":"好來那對於協商結論草稿我現在來宣讀一下請大家齁阿如果有意見再隨處歡迎提出決定事項一各黨團同意113年度總預算案之討論程序及決定事項如附件一通過針對國際觀所屬通案刪減用途別項目括弧含行政院主計總處整理之名序內容括弧如附件二"},{"start":30993.854,"end":31019.425,"text":"通案提案及各委員會通過之協商內容含保留部分如附件三由各委員會整理編讀版及保留版上開附件一至二由財政委員會會長送各黨團確認附件三由各委員會送各黨團確認後送財政委員會附件一至三由財政委員會於12月18日 上午10時"},{"start":31021.207,"end":31035.861,"text":"前送議事處．供應會處理本案於12月19日星期二應會進行處理非保留部分先讀後均予以通過保留部分進行處理前由時代力量黨團、臺灣民眾黨團、國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團各推派一人發言室去授權議事處處理"},{"start":31045.99,"end":31070.259,"text":"每人發言時間如三分鐘 發言完畢後 各保留提案兼不再發言即案 通案 個人會次序進行各保留提案之處理三 貶處協商各項提案 兼予以刊登公報記錄有沒有意見沒有意見發言之就是 咬下去講一次就可以了可以啦好"},{"start":31074.969,"end":31081.174,"text":"決定事項是113年"},{"start":31099.026,"end":31111.891,"text":"自113年1月1日期 本院每月立法會員及各黨團公會助理之治理會增加4%每月購為458,990元及573,735元令適用勞動基準法所需加班會 不休假加班會等相關經費增加4%每月購為91,800元及114,750元"},{"start":31129.895,"end":31133.536,"text":"因為正在簽字中,院長先講一下這一段"},{"start":31150.821,"end":31161.064,"text":"現在預算案協商結論各黨團在簽字中跟大家說明一下下星期二應會各黨團要動員來進行貶次應會預算案及有關議案的表決為了當日表決順利我們貶次會議就尋例不處理臨時提案"},{"start":31172.168,"end":31172.369,"text":"主席"},{"start":31184.454,"end":31194.522,"text":"現在各黨團都已經有在簽了我們就繼續簽各黨團請各黨團大家能夠盡快簽字繼續簽簽完就依協商結論整理相關資料畢共宴會處理那現在"},{"start":31209.964,"end":31223.362,"text":"院長不好意思有沒有意見來那個請教就是我們房屋稅的那個協商是不是禮拜一早上禮拜一早上沒有問題早上下午都沒有問題禮拜一只有那個下午都早上好不好"},{"start":31224.414,"end":31225.355,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31245.759,"end":31272.602,"text":"那我們立法院的這個所有的幕僚同仁就要辛苦了請大家趕快做資料的整理整理以利於這個接下來的這個會議的進行還有沒有意見 如果沒有就沒有要選會喔"},{"start":31275.117,"end":31275.577,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15354","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854f924cb68922450b90a0be61fea1481846d53a332764a53511a4bd7ddade59bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-14","start_time":"2023-12-14T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-14T11:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10530,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 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在COP28把台灣我們對於整個氣候變遷因應的做法跟全世界來分享"},{"start":2452.714,"end":2469.999,"text":"那剛剛有提到這一次COP28在阿拉伯聯合大公國杜拜來舉行那除了COP28之外事實上還有京都協定書第18次的第8方的大會"},{"start":2470.899,"end":2496.908,"text":"也就是所謂的CMP18以及巴黎協定第五次第二方大會也就是CMA5以及第59次附屬機構的會議SB59而同步進行有將近超過9萬人出席這次的會議可以說是COP舉辦到目前為止規模最大的一次"},{"start":2500.353,"end":2521.763,"text":"阿拉伯聯合大公國提出的四大行動主軸包括能源轉型與鈦除化石燃料解決氣候融資問題加速糧食系統轉型以及提升包容性的氣候行動"},{"start":2523.184,"end":2539.251,"text":"事實上我們在事先也對媒體記者來表達既然四大主題當中有特別強調提升包容性把台灣排除在DA方實在是非常諷刺的一個做法"},{"start":2540.373,"end":2568.023,"text":"那這個會議本來是要在12月12號就結束但是大家對化石燃料的減少跟剔除事實上有很大的疑議那最後妥協的結果是用一個中性的字眼就是轉型脫離化石燃料也就是英文變成Transition away from fossil fuel"},{"start":2569.383,"end":2595.976,"text":"那我想這個是大家後來非常期待的一個結果那我接下來把這一次的會議重點如列成三個大項來這邊報告那第一個就是在會議的第一天就獲得議會參與者大家的共識成立了損失與損害的基金也就是Loss and Damage Fund"},{"start":2598.033,"end":2602.764,"text":"到目前為止已經獲得多國承諾資助達到7.26億美元"},{"start":2608.257,"end":2629.648,"text":"那這基金現在是暫時由世界銀行來代為執行那部分的國家提議是應該是成立要新的組織來處理這些基金未來的一個使用跟申請的這個程序那目前在這一方面還在進行當中"},{"start":2631.969,"end":2648.204,"text":"那第二個重點是剛剛提到有關如何做能源的一個轉型那這裡面很清楚的第一國多數也都同意要在2030年"},{"start":2649.986,"end":2666.896,"text":"要把再生能源跟現在來比要達到三倍也就是說未來剩下的七年當中要增加兩倍的再生能源那同時要提升能源效率一倍"},{"start":2668.116,"end":2689.543,"text":"我想這兩點跟我們在去年國發會所發布的2050淨零排放路線圖事實上是不某而合這個是很令人欣慰我們可以說是超前部署另外在減碳科技來持續擴增發展"},{"start":2691.482,"end":2713.58,"text":"那剛剛也提到的化石燃料原本是從face down跟face out變成transition away from fossil fuel所以事實上是有比較中性的字眼但是在其層方面並沒有很明確的來說明到底要怎麼去transition away from fossil fuel"},{"start":2714.541,"end":2743.881,"text":"另外對於CCES的燃煤電廠應該要排除換句話說未來再探捕捉封存跟利用要來持續的強化也呼籲各國要取消對於低效化石燃料的補助同時強化零排放硬具的加強部署"},{"start":2745.081,"end":2760.586,"text":"第三個談到的是有關很多國家在會議當中也提出了一些倡議這些倡議涵蓋的面向也非常的多但是並沒有獲得多數國的一個認同"},{"start":2762.926,"end":2784.796,"text":"這裏面當然也包括氣候跟健康的宣言以及再生低碳氫能以及其衍生物的宣言以及全球冷卻行動的承諾這塊事實上也在我們2050的近年排放路徑圖裏面我們要持續來強化我們對於冷媒的使用等等"},{"start":2791.755,"end":2809.043,"text":"那接下來我針對我們這一次參議的一個情況在這邊跟各位委員報告那這一次的參議的部會剛剛事實上在主席裡面有提到"},{"start":2809.883,"end":2825.095,"text":"在座各個部會事實上都積極的參與除了各部會之外事實上我們的NGO以及我們的產業界、學術界跟研究單位也都積極的參與規模應該也是國內歷年來參加COP會議裡面最多的一次"},{"start":2832.08,"end":2842.349,"text":"在這邊也特別感謝我們大院四個黨團也分別有代表包括在座的洪森和瑞妍也蒞臨我們的會場來視導提供很多"},{"start":2847.754,"end":2849.314,"text":"提供我們很多的幫忙,在這邊也特別謝謝趙偉抵達會場。"},{"start":2869.71,"end":2884.757,"text":"那另外就是有關友邦的職員跟雙邊的會談方面今年除了友邦力挺我們之外很多沒有邦交國的這些代表跟國會議員也分別以書面"},{"start":2888.519,"end":2916.676,"text":"以及跟我們進行雙邊的一個會談來交換對於淨零轉型的一些心得總計今年我們進行的雙邊會談達到46場所以是相當相當的具有收穫那這邊也特別感謝行政院花園人還有我們外交部的長官"},{"start":2917.576,"end":2945.948,"text":"我就不把名字講出來事實上我們這一次也可以說是部會首長參與的層級人數最多人員也最多的一次那另外我在這邊也特別針對這一次為了COP28我們也在當地有做了包括宣傳車以及看板的一個廣告在捷運站等等"},{"start":2946.789,"end":2962.07,"text":"獲得相當正面的一個回應也特別感謝外交部在事先在各大媒體來進行投書包括環境部的投書等等後續來講我想這一次COP的"},{"start":2963.772,"end":2975.044,"text":"結論很清楚我們感到很欣慰的就是臺灣雖然不是第一方的一份子可是我們推動2050的淨零排放我們氣候變遷因應法的立法"},{"start":2981.27,"end":2997.535,"text":"等等的措施都讓第一方以及參與者對台灣推動淨零的決心感到非常的佩服那我在這邊也再一次呼籲我們在淨零排放的這個路徑上"},{"start":2998.355,"end":3017.593,"text":"我們持續地往前我相信世界都看到臺灣我們也會盡全力來推動我們的淨零排放路徑圖以上報告恭請執政也敬祝主席以及各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝 謝謝薛部長"},{"start":3025.359,"end":3052.915,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報不好意思 部長剛剛那個隔壁間要在審預算可能10點的時候 他們說10點左右會請您過去所以就要請您的請次長代理就這樣子 好 謝謝"},{"start":3055.652,"end":3081.256,"text":"現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出與其不受理今天沒有休息時間原則上11點半處理臨時提案10點半截止收案"},{"start":3082.973,"end":3086.335,"text":"現在請登記的第一位委員 洪聖翰 洪委員發言呃 請薛部長 然後李次長還有那個曾次長尤其行政單位官員們 謝謝"},{"start":3116.743,"end":3129.62,"text":"部長好兩位次長好那我想其實這一次COP28其實經歷了兩個禮拜的相關的會議每年都是這個國際上面秋變遷討論最重要的盛事之一齁"},{"start":3130.629,"end":3148.144,"text":"那這兩個禮拜裡面當然有很多重要的討論跟波折那一直到昨天應該是到甚至到昨天的深夜最後的這個共識其實才做了這個產出那我想大家其實都盯到最後一刻"},{"start":3149.065,"end":3167.429,"text":"那我想先問一個事情其實在這個第一週的這個談判裡面在第一週的會議進行的時間裡面有我覺得台灣的媒體做了蠻多的報導的一個事情就是這個好像有二十幾個國家那他們發出了這個所謂2050會要三倍"},{"start":3170.951,"end":3177.236,"text":"合能的這個倡議就部長就你了解這個事情是最後我們這個大會的結論跟共識嗎"},{"start":3179.929,"end":3202.512,"text":"沒有,事實上沒有得到共識,因為其他有共識的都將近200個國家,那剛剛宏偉提到才22個而且那22個大部分都是本身在這個核能發展以及產業方面事實上也算相當成熟的,他們使用核能力也很高"},{"start":3203.252,"end":3231.424,"text":"對 所以我們剛剛看到其實那幾天的媒體出來後我們有幾位在黨的總統候選哇 這非常非常興奮甚至直接把它寫成說這是COP28的共識我想這並不是一個事實好 那下面我想這個下一張那這個我想請問曾市長其實我想大家其實已經看到甚至現在有人把它定名為叫做這個UAE共識阿聯酋共識在阿聯酋共識裡面其實我們看到在這一次的談判裡面最清楚跟最具體的一個"},{"start":3232.844,"end":3254.749,"text":"一個條文其實就是在於我這邊標紅字2030年以前要將再生能源裝置量提升三倍以及每年平均的能源效率提升兩倍這部分這一段時間因為這個想法的提出來並不是在只是在最後包括在一開始會議的時候就提出來我想這部分經部有沒有做一些相關的幕僚作業跟討論"},{"start":3256.257,"end":3277.579,"text":"好那個謝謝委員就是說其實除了具體承諾跟能源有關的這大概這兩點是最重要的結論那除了這個以外其實一些具體的做法包括提供要讓供應鏈更有韌性等等很多還有包括協助開發中國家這些相關的工作其實我們都有把它整理起來"},{"start":3278.32,"end":3297.117,"text":"我簡單講兩個事情第一個有關於再生能源的部分其實除了第一個就是我們把現在成熟的再生能源能夠加速也讓它加量除了這個以外我們要更多元化的來發展再生能源這個是台灣現在政策正在推動的工作"},{"start":3297.797,"end":3313.482,"text":"我們也希望能夠把再生能源的裝置能夠盡快的再提升除此之外有關於委員提到能效的部分能效的部分大概簡單來講就是希望全球的年均能源效率改善目標能夠從2%"},{"start":3315.143,"end":3344.359,"text":"提升到4%是好那他的計算方法是用初級能源的供給去出GDP因為時間有限好那我簡單講委員從2016年到2022年臺灣的初級能源的能源密集度總共憑年均改善了4.2%是其實是他提了4.4%過去這幾年我們其實改善的量是比他要求的4%再多一點"},{"start":3344.619,"end":3372.454,"text":"好次長那我就更具體問下面一個問題那很多媒體都關注在這一次COP28的結論之後像這個最重要的再生能源三倍能效兩倍我們能不能夠針對這個結論來再做臺灣國內政策的加碼的承諾也就是順應這個國際上面再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍作為我們2030年再生能源跟能效的目標這部分我們有沒有辦法順應這個再做加碼的承諾"},{"start":3373.574,"end":3394.506,"text":"跟委員報告如果它基礎年是用2022年來做我們到2030年平均來講說我們的光電目前規劃的量是有會能夠達到三倍風電的量也應該會有2022年的時候的裝置容量的三倍所以這個都可以這個在裝置容量的增加上"},{"start":3395.206,"end":3415.121,"text":"是可以達成目標的所以再生能源三倍是可以承諾的是會達成目標的依照我們現在的規劃那除了這個以外第二個部分有關能源效率就是初級能源供給的密集度這一塊我們去年年均的改善是4.2%今年預估起來可能會有機會超過6%"},{"start":3417.723,"end":3443.879,"text":"就是供給量我們是使用量是下降了GDP是成長了所以我們改善的改善率是還不錯所以我們也希望2030年這個改善4%的目標能夠達成好所以我跟你們說現在我們台灣的政府也再次承諾了順應的目前這個COP28的這個共識的結論再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍相較於2022年這件事情我們是可以承諾的這沒問題吧對不對"},{"start":3445.24,"end":3463.571,"text":"對我跟委員報告我剛才的說明裡面是要講過去這幾年其實我們就順著這個軌跡在做你說我們就在這個軌跡上面對我們其實就是在這個方向上面所以這個承諾是我們可以承諾的事情我們希望能夠這個軌跡能夠繼續順利的往上走就是朝著這一個比例繼續改善好"},{"start":3464.298,"end":3491.537,"text":"那我覺得這部分很重要這當然也代表是國內的政策其實跟國際上面是很清楚的接軌的並沒有所謂違逆國際的趨勢跟方向這是第一點下面一個問題這次次長我要問其實在這次會議裡我們發現到有很多包括歐洲的國家因為歐洲戰爭的原因他們其實都花了很多力氣在提升能源效率的部分那當然台灣看起來因為我們能源價格變動沒有人家高所以我想問次長下面一個問題"},{"start":3493.482,"end":3503.209,"text":"我自己在想說現在經濟部有沒有對於各國尤其是這樣提升能源效率這些新的做法有密切的高度的掌握"},{"start":3504.825,"end":3530.767,"text":"這個部分委員的建議就是我們來做前瞻的那個技術的追蹤平台這個其實我們平常都在追啦但是沒有把它集合起來成為一個平台提供給大家參考我們來跟能源署我來要求能源署我們一起來做這個相關的事長這個問題其實是我想要接下來下一個問題但我現在想請學部長好下面部長我要問你你覺得我們達成2050淨零排放的目標有辦法只靠自己嗎"},{"start":3532.813,"end":3542.563,"text":"你覺得可以嗎只靠自己需要國內跨部會跟產業我說不是環境部我說台灣自己台灣自己可以只靠自己達成嗎"},{"start":3544.116,"end":3569.272,"text":"應該要跟大家合作啦需要跟大家合作對不對部長我這次其實去很明顯知道我們的淨零排放的這一件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己我們其實靠大量的國際合作下一張所以部長你覺得我們現在臺灣我們正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作足夠我們達成剛才說2050的排放這個淨零排放的這樣子的工作嗎我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎"},{"start":3570.356,"end":3579.665,"text":"我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作需要擴大嗎?部長說了,再往下我想到後面因為我時間上面有一些有限到最後一張"},{"start":3581.504,"end":3604.198,"text":"前面一張部長我自己有個具體的建議我認為就台灣我們就氣候或者是淨零來說我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性我提一件事情其實我們有很多的友邦國家在太平洋他們是太平洋的島國其實都是每次在氣候談判裡面非常重要也非常受阻力的所謂小島國家的聯盟"},{"start":3604.918,"end":3628.88,"text":"可是我們對於這些我自己也觀察我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的甚至更具戰略意義的這個合作的關係甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲他們每次在這個氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音那也是我們最好合作的對象但我說實話我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的了解跟掌握我自己這次去完以後我覺得還不夠高"},{"start":3629.821,"end":3637.64,"text":"所以我覺得我們需要跟這系統性的戰略合作這是我想提的第一點的建議第二點就是剛剛跟次長在講到的問題"},{"start":3639.264,"end":3664.605,"text":"我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術前瞻的技術現在到底發展到最前緣是哪幾個國家哪幾個企業哪幾個公司哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的Demo我們需要知道這件事情所以我覺得我們應該在這個國際合作的概念之下有一個最新的這個前瞻技術的一個追蹤的平臺這部分可能是經濟部其實應該可以扮演很多的角色"},{"start":3665.185,"end":3685.819,"text":"可能不只是能效包括再生能源包括氫能所有只要跟新的技術有關我們都不排斥我們都必須密切追蹤甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術我們也該追蹤這我都同意再來一個事情是我們的發展的機制包括這些一些規範性的機制尤其像我知道現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM都在討論歐盟的碳邊境調整"},{"start":3689.361,"end":3701.372,"text":"可是這只是大家現在只關注這個階段阿那請問下個階段呢下個階段其實也在討論中阿可是我想就環境部來說你們對歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAN目前掌握度到什麼程度"},{"start":3702.536,"end":3725.869,"text":"事實上不只歐盟包括我們跟美國跟新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸另外我針對剛剛洪文特別講到的中間這個部分事實上理事長或許也可以講今年7月份外交部就已經跟四個太平洋友邦部長我這邊就直接對不起因為時間有限我自己覺得我們其實應該在部層或國發會的部分直接應該來帶領一個"},{"start":3730.852,"end":3744.003,"text":"國際合作的專案這國際合作專案應該包括了前瞻技術包括小島國家的合作也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步的發展我覺得這些事情可能拼湊起來我們對於"},{"start":3746.025,"end":3760.75,"text":"台灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面跟國際上面的連結我覺得我們需要一個這個事情最後我要提醒一點我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的我們對聯合國參與比較困難我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的"},{"start":3761.41,"end":3787.605,"text":"國際合作的參與的平台這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分我這邊其實有列了一些其實是在聯合國以外的參與機制我希望可以請部長再帶回去我們來討論哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與而不只是說因為我們不是議員的締約國所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題其實在其他地方我們可以很好的發揮以上這個建議部長可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟"},{"start":3789.566,"end":3815.362,"text":"跟這個公主委跟陳院長來討論這事情是我們應該做的事情部長可以嗎可以 給洪文報告昨天下午就已經跟陳院長報告過了事實上剛剛洪文講的這個部分都有cover在那裡部長我們希望你們討論有一個好的結果那看可不可以在一個月後給我們相關的這個相關的規劃的訊息可以嗎一個月後可以好 謝謝謝謝洪文"},{"start":3818.455,"end":3839.726,"text":"謝鴻文 下一位請蘇喬惠蘇委員好 謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長"},{"start":3847.329,"end":3861.084,"text":"蘇委員好部長好部長跟幾位委員有實地到COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成我們直接簽聯署請部長直接照做"},{"start":3864.207,"end":3889.601,"text":"不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧"},{"start":3892.462,"end":3903.859,"text":"應該只有一個這樣問好了來部長這次的會議到底有沒有結論有沒有有事實上他們有有結論嘛這個結論在什麼時候發出昨天下午昨天嘛昨天下午最後一個"},{"start":3905.046,"end":3929.491,"text":"不用啦 部長 這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛 有嘛 有什麼時候發出的 這個結論昨天下午啊 昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論 對吧不是 那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好 那部長"},{"start":3932.912,"end":3957.267,"text":"部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜"},{"start":3958.898,"end":3978.795,"text":"我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼他的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪"},{"start":3980.797,"end":4001.597,"text":"我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對台灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少那並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論啊結論沒有啊"},{"start":4005.801,"end":4022.542,"text":"結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這一項當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個"},{"start":4024.063,"end":4043.456,"text":"加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但"},{"start":4047.939,"end":4065.171,"text":"它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對"},{"start":4065.871,"end":4080.966,"text":"完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧"},{"start":4081.667,"end":4097.265,"text":"是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它"},{"start":4098.005,"end":4100.107,"text":"對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思"},{"start":4124.605,"end":4152.406,"text":"其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊你的報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件"},{"start":4153.046,"end":4169.275,"text":"所以是哪三個條件部長第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的嘛就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題嘛"},{"start":4169.935,"end":4176.121,"text":"為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人稠恰恰相反"},{"start":4194.958,"end":4215.665,"text":"所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料"},{"start":4216.385,"end":4237.708,"text":"或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼"},{"start":4238.228,"end":4259.625,"text":"另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐"},{"start":4261.827,"end":4273.752,"text":"有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以"},{"start":4280.154,"end":4296.219,"text":"這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制"},{"start":4297.259,"end":4321.56,"text":"以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年7月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋"},{"start":4322.28,"end":4330.467,"text":"四個友邦國家包括帛琉、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家"},{"start":4331.058,"end":4357.882,"text":"成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會那台灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們"},{"start":4358.942,"end":4382.696,"text":"行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何"},{"start":4382.836,"end":4410.162,"text":"非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這一次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上反應很正面我昨天跟院長跟是嗎"},{"start":4410.982,"end":4431.238,"text":"所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛"},{"start":4431.678,"end":4437.54,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講一定要說到大家都能夠懂"},{"start":4460.527,"end":4473.462,"text":"大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點好繼續傳達謝謝部長好謝謝蘇委員好謝謝謝謝蘇委員有請吳益勤委員"},{"start":4487.637,"end":4500.161,"text":"謝謝主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝"},{"start":4504.377,"end":4518.667,"text":"首先先有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個"},{"start":4519.547,"end":4543.074,"text":"共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總"},{"start":4547.555,"end":4551.08,"text":"總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%"},{"start":4563.857,"end":4583.868,"text":"然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達到60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值"},{"start":4584.969,"end":4590.311,"text":"從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以要求還更高第二個部分跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":4614.26,"end":4622.848,"text":"這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個Giga來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個Giga是目標值"},{"start":4637.621,"end":4658.912,"text":"是目標我們會超過40個Giga所以以這個要求來講再生能源裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電海上風電地面光電屋頂光電還有沒有地熱"},{"start":4665.896,"end":4686.335,"text":"第一個就是我們家大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利"},{"start":4687.511,"end":4694.295,"text":"好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的"},{"start":4707.242,"end":4707.262,"text":"致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4731.524,"end":4755.564,"text":"碳補儲的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?董委員報告就是說這一次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯而為其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的"},{"start":4756.525,"end":4773.984,"text":"那其實這次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳捕捉封存或是碳捕捉再利用那碳捕捉封存再利用這裡面算到了這個四千萬噸這是您的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的"},{"start":4778.188,"end":4799.995,"text":"那這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術"},{"start":4801.255,"end":4821.152,"text":"現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊"},{"start":4821.812,"end":4839.527,"text":"我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101"},{"start":4841.008,"end":4870.508,"text":"所以這個量蠻大的所以去化啦或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員報告因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來啦我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高"},{"start":4872.809,"end":4896.038,"text":"對,是比這個還要高的而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法我覺得那個很多技術細節如果在這裡講是,了解到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的不是完全沒有去想這些事好,謝謝"},{"start":4897.798,"end":4921.208,"text":"再討論這些事情因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好 謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放我們2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445"},{"start":4924.231,"end":4926.434,"text":"二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的"},{"start":4942.477,"end":4964.764,"text":"這個甲碗淨零請問那個畜牧業因為最主要那個甲碗當然是畜牧業還有我們的廢棄物這個農業部跟環境部有什麼想法給吳委員報告有關廢棄物的部分我們已經在推動就是驗養、發酵然後產生早期的這個部分已經有一些試換的場域所以2030年要清零有沒有問題因為他的目標也是2030年要清零這個甲碗"},{"start":4972.635,"end":4994.654,"text":"跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分"},{"start":4995.205,"end":5014.558,"text":"那早期發電在短期之內如果能夠負極的我們會發電如果比較沒有辦法負極的我們是破壞做早期收集的這部分所以目前以高峰相比的話整個掩埋場的甲烷排放量已經降到10%左右了就是降到以前的"},{"start":5014.938,"end":5015.238,"text":"農業部主席"},{"start":5033.913,"end":5052.364,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家序那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用"},{"start":5053.3,"end":5062.991,"text":"是,所以也是朝這個目標應該解決啦好,謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部了來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們台灣的評價說我們告訴第七"},{"start":5071.805,"end":5097.361,"text":"或是我們威視氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反"},{"start":5098.441,"end":5121.761,"text":"舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年"},{"start":5124.583,"end":5140.815,"text":"結果菲律賓、印度它可以排到七頓到八頓同樣是人為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就是說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI"},{"start":5145.678,"end":5172.677,"text":"雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的"},{"start":5173.297,"end":5198.115,"text":"好那這個CCPI他才選67個國家去年63個國家進了67個國家那在我們後面還包括韓國、加拿大阿美國跟日本也都大概跟我們都一樣都五六十名所以我個人覺得就是說我們國內我們應該對自己的國家有信心對我們的排碳的努力雖然我們還沒有達到完美的境界但是我們一直朝這個方向努力應該給大家"},{"start":5199.917,"end":5213.033,"text":"我們在政策方面CGPI也對我們的國家的政策肯定我們在政策的部分排名24那它是排碳量這一部分把我們排到很後面因為它的方法根本就錯誤了"},{"start":5214.794,"end":5215.214,"text":"謝謝有請林維周林委員"},{"start":5253.65,"end":5270.183,"text":"謝謝昭緯我們請薛部長有請薛部長林委好薛部長這一次你有去參加這個COP是會議嗎是有嗎有你是做什麼艙"},{"start":5272.764,"end":5297.099,"text":"經濟艙還是商務艙商務艙OK你只要規定嘛部長級的按照可以做商務艙是對不對啊有沒有被升等升成頭等艙有沒有應該有吧你有你有升等成頭等艙沒有因為這個都是幕僚安排所以你是做頭等艙去的誰幫你升等的你知道嗎"},{"start":5299.703,"end":5308.947,"text":"整個形成這些說明一下請你們的幕僚幫忙說明誰幫部長升等頭等艙的跟委員報告這個是按照那個行政院的規定行政院規定只能做商務艙喔部會首長是如果有提供這個頭等艙的話是可以的"},{"start":5326.207,"end":5350.665,"text":"你們是買頭等艙還是買商務艙我們是買頭等艙買的時候就買頭等艙這是符合規定嗎你要確定還是被升等的原來就是買頭等艙按照規定來的不過這個以後我們還是可以檢討有必要一定要做頭等艙嗎"},{"start":5352.895,"end":5362.643,"text":"商務艙我從來沒有做過頭等艙我不知道頭等艙會是什麼什麼樣的滋味商務艙已經很好了我做過商務艙所以這個將來預算上我們再來檢討好來我們談其他你請部長留著"},{"start":5374.75,"end":5382.355,"text":"這個 我們先看一下你們的這個網站不是啦 FB的這個粉專最近你們貼了好幾篇 這一個禮拜貼好幾篇跟本頁無關的這個內容幫行政院在大內宣長照2.0溫暖照顧"},{"start":5401.718,"end":5404.24,"text":"環境部你不是衛福部啊打造溫暖而堅韌的台灣講疫情"},{"start":5414.721,"end":5436.499,"text":"特別條例照顧台灣這跟你有什麼關係?跟環境部有什麼關係?給林委員報告行政院的部位是一體的啦大內宣這個跟大內宣沒有關係啦給林委員報告行政院底下的各部位是一體的那這個部分已經有難怪那個按戰術30、40"},{"start":5439.903,"end":5440.583,"text":"這幾天大家都在討論這個COP會議"},{"start":5453.584,"end":5468.556,"text":"到底在談哪一些內容臺灣還有哪一些可以做得更好的對不對 要專注在本業貼這個也沒人看你們那個評價兩顆星啊你們那個FB的這個評價兩顆星加油啦注重本業啦這才是你的專業嘛"},{"start":5479.009,"end":5504.034,"text":"謝謝林委員 這個本頁當然也注重啦那個比例啊 你那一個禮拜貼三篇就貼的全部是大內宣跟貴部毫無關係的貼文這個行政院有行政院他的這個網站嘛或是他的FB粉絲專頁社團他去貼嘛 你們要注重本頁好 我們來問一下就是說你去參加了這個COP"},{"start":5505.748,"end":5530.265,"text":"二十八28這個會議當然大家在講說我們到底有沒有進步從27到現在27屆到28屆有沒有進步但是因為指標的關係有的NGO評論我們是退步那你們一直講說我們是進步進步的好吧這個就各有各的這個"},{"start":5532.358,"end":5541.004,"text":"指標它採樣的指標的不同不過還是因為這個是叫做德國看守"},{"start":5542.605,"end":5562.673,"text":"的一個NGO每年我知道一個NGO他CCPI每年都會評但是大家也都會參考所以還是注意一下看他用什麼樣的評你剛剛有做了一部分的解釋不過針對這幾項我們把它拿出來看就是針對"},{"start":5569.793,"end":5591.878,"text":"整體表現 這個我們就不講因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來的然後我們看它的內容臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評非常差的是能源使用"},{"start":5600.409,"end":5619.899,"text":"這部分我覺得啊是有值得我們檢討的你知道我們現在的能源的發電的組合火力發電佔多少火力發電裡面大概有燃煤、燃氣大概各自相近40%左右嘛所以佔八成啊是"},{"start":5620.728,"end":5638.563,"text":"可是我們已經在再生能源已經從幾乎大概1、2%到現在已經10%了我想這個成長速率大概在國際上排名應該是前段班啦火力發電的降低比例啊做得不好"},{"start":5639.974,"end":5650.698,"text":"我們先從用天然氣來期待煤我們能源都是以進口為主所以各位應該也都知道天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源"},{"start":5654.858,"end":5675.86,"text":"他排...他會排什麼?他會排哪一些?氣體?二氧化碳...也是氣體會,但是他的排...他也是化石原料吧?是,沒錯,但是他的量...大家都要減少化石原料的使用嘛所以這一次的COP他為什麼不敢直接講說Face-up Fossil Fuel?"},{"start":5676.36,"end":5698.593,"text":"你看他也是自己最後必須因為有人反對阿阿拉伯國家反對阿為什麼會反對就是因為他不實際因為他生產石油阿為什麼反對難道你要幫他講話嗎因為我們沒有生產石油這是趨勢嘛這是趨勢嘛"},{"start":5706.516,"end":5714.82,"text":"阿你要幫他們講話說 因為這個沒有通過大家的共識不是幫他們講話啦 因為我們也沒有生產食用 對啊我們要有自己的 是 沒錯 達到2050我們要對自己有信心啦 能夠淨零碳排阿你的 欸 能源那一塊是最主要的啦好啦 我提供幾個 好"},{"start":5730.738,"end":5755.794,"text":"這個二十七的時候他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電還有中鋼、林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的五百個碳排放源全球最髒的五百大"},{"start":5757.079,"end":5772.41,"text":"我們就佔了幾個中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電今年COP28我們台灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善還更退步所以這個齁這個這個能源政策齁其實關係到我們整個"},{"start":5786.027,"end":5810.498,"text":"這個2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點就在能源政策了如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或是天然氣一直沒有辦法減少我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚啦那個都是全球500大排碳排最多的500大在我們台灣你說我們做得多好"},{"start":5816.388,"end":5829.055,"text":"有必要 這個我們慢慢來討論有必要整體檢討我們的能源尤其是電因為電是源頭啦你產生電才能讓企業"},{"start":5833.964,"end":5854.381,"text":"運轉讓汽車你即使全部改把它改成電動汽車不直接排碳二氧化碳但是你用的電如果是火力發電這些在路上跑的汽車電車用的還是火力的東西火力的能源所以那個源頭我們要好好的來探討"},{"start":5855.492,"end":5883.805,"text":"好今天時間的關係以後我們再找時間探討等一下我們要去草野協商了好謝謝林委員好謝謝謝謝林委員有請邱太元邱委員好謝謝主席首先謝謝主席排這個有COP28齁"},{"start":5885.56,"end":5913.347,"text":"勾引出我們在這個會期雖然快要結束但是非常重要也是將來不管是政府各部門要努力的一個方向我想今天非常有意義來感謝各部門的努力是不是我看因為我講的比較跟健康但是因為跟環境部還是有關係我再請薛部長好了那衛福部是周市長來來請"},{"start":5915.259,"end":5934.76,"text":"我們一起來分享一下好不好好,有請行政單位,謝謝好,我們看下一張,因為時間的關係好,我們看這一張來講,我會比較Focus在健康Health Risk這個部分Climate Change跟Risk這個部分"},{"start":5936.151,"end":5958.965,"text":"當然我們在2003年世界醫事會世界醫事會擁有1100個醫師世界上它的發動力量是很夠的分佈在都會當然也很多在偏鄉地區在服務其實在2003年的一個宣言尤其是針對一個基層醫療Permanent Health Care當然講它的針對"},{"start":5960.609,"end":5980.055,"text":"當然不只climate change啦當然現在慢性病越來越多流行病的risk也一直承受人類在承受環境的衝擊那個氣候的變遷對健康的影響還有抗生素的一個resistance"},{"start":5983.372,"end":6010.924,"text":"抗藥性等等的都是在未來很重要的那他有特別強調當然基層醫療的action是非常重要的鎖住第一線來建立整個韌性的一個醫療防疫健康體系所以這樣的一個情況那加上COP右邊這邊是COP的主席我們都知道這個碳排空氣汙染"},{"start":6011.84,"end":6036.05,"text":"大概都是對健康非常的有影響我很敬佩我一個學生現在是大嶺慈濟醫院的副院長林明蘭多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了也算是臺灣之光了像世界上相關的議程都會請他過去我最近也開始跟他密切的來瞭解他來做什麼"},{"start":6037.369,"end":6053.964,"text":"希望把它推展到醫療體系我想這個部分先跟兩位首長說明一下再看下一張好了因為我的問題可能在後面剛好也是我們每一年世界醫師會跟台灣醫師會都會在台灣辦理一個國際研討會"},{"start":6058.379,"end":6069.148,"text":"那不管是外交部或者是衛福部都很熱烈的來執行每一點都相關的都很重要的主題今年的主題是全球健康安全醫療照護體系"},{"start":6070.831,"end":6090.086,"text":"其實我們請的兩個重量級的世界總統都有接見這個女生是世界醫師會會長這男生是理事會主席是韓國韓國他們不約而同都把最近一年的我們在12月半所以都會把今年度大概世界醫師會在全世界各國"},{"start":6091.277,"end":6111.272,"text":"在演講的主題最重要的提到我們這裡因為兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係而且講得非常精彩我們國內的演講者在這方面還是在防疫以後總要建立一個韌性的一個"},{"start":6112.412,"end":6133.161,"text":"所以他們還稍微好像前進一點點,我們要趕快接上這個進度所以今天的我覺得今天的會議很重要,我們今天會議應該要有一些未來希望呼籲政府或者是全民間各種NEO甚至EJ我們怎麼樣來做,我想這個部分環境部跟"},{"start":6134.318,"end":6157.259,"text":"拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔任起這個領導的責任不要到下一次COP29又要來討論一次中間就是按照我們原來的規劃、計畫一直在進行這樣可能我整個review起來可能跟不上時代那我們看下一張氣候當然變遷會造成這個我想我們用眼睛看比較快"},{"start":6159.05,"end":6181.971,"text":"造成區域的差跡與大疾病的形態還有不要忘記心理健康跟社會心理這個部分一直在過去我們裡面沒有我們在檢討我也希望衛福部在以後注意到這個部分和他們change對mental、psychosocial方面的問題對老人家的衝擊我想這不言而喻多的是更有健康很多健康上的問題"},{"start":6186.192,"end":6211.18,"text":"那我這張是希望提出來我要請衛福部這是在我們這次的國際研討會裡面大概大致上我覺得我們一個醫師他是用醫師啦因為是世界醫師會嘛大概有幾個工作可以這樣做我請衛福部我能夠帶回去"},{"start":6212.591,"end":6240.775,"text":"去看看檢討這些將來可不可以未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣一個趨勢我們未來可不可以做哪些事情已經在做哪些事情了或者在做哪些事情我想這個非常重要讓醫療體系趕快來接上而不是只有在醫療體系還在盤查還在現已盤查探盤查的階段看起來這樣對不來就失敗所以拜託我們好不好?次長可以嗎?好可以"},{"start":6241.595,"end":6264.385,"text":"我希望因為這個會期現在12月,你一國外可以拿一個報告給我們未完嗎?給我們展開為了這一屆的Ending跟下一屆像我們黃雀旺委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向啦好不好,這個大概最重要當然就是說,還有就是可能要有資源進來啦"},{"start":6267.217,"end":6290.482,"text":"今年談預算大概都沒有這個方面的預算但是明年是不是未來我們必須要做這些事情或是重要的我們就來編預算當然包括從前面的先導、專業人的教育、研究不要讓這些研究、關心climate change的這些同仁們"},{"start":6292.768,"end":6311.716,"text":"花了1、2十年的研究還是被很寂寞的在那邊做他們過去的努力也帶領到台灣治理至少不要落後現在我們要給他溫暖、給他支持然後利用他們過去的經驗、成果我們繼續來努力這也是我們吳釗緯應該他的心願當然最重要就是有一個更...所以這一個我拜託那個"},{"start":6321.19,"end":6340.76,"text":"衛福部當然我也希望我過去在這裡也是部會也都不是說你負責什麼都彼此有關係像我們過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作的我相信環境部如果在健康跟climate change裡面也有很多合作的平台也很高興我們學部長、學校長"},{"start":6343.499,"end":6371.301,"text":"我們跟國衛院有很多空氣跟健康的工作創起了我們中興大學的醫學系,這個非常的厲害所以我想他對這個部分能夠了解我也拜託衛福部,環境部可以帶回去看看這些問題,可以從你那邊走過來幫忙好我們看下一張有一些建議,我當然是也在這邊"},{"start":6374.465,"end":6397.48,"text":"因為要兩個部來幫忙所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多的建議那目前因為我主要focus在醫療、健康所以我想這整個環境的變化所影響的當然很多很多各部會都有那針對WMA的建議目前政府落實哪些未來要做哪些也在這一次的一個"},{"start":6399.055,"end":6423.334,"text":"大概一個月給我們一個看做多少算多少,未來有什麼構想?看下一張因為現在台灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成其他問題都沒有把健康問題納入在氣候變遷行動的核心所以我想這個部分希望未來衛福部跟環境部在規劃的時候能把"},{"start":6425.551,"end":6453.445,"text":"造成的驚豪,何況這次你看全部國家簽最多國家簽最多國家簽的先年就是climate change and health是沒錯那個部長帶回去跟部長出去訪查一定很累他這種魔鬼他非常有精神但是我想也會收復很多一定也帶很多那邊開會的會以後會對國家對台灣會有很大的貢獻"},{"start":6455.739,"end":6483.681,"text":"也感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖也去考察了一些澎湖相關環境、垃圾的問題部長親自帶隊他以一個澎湖長大的小孩有如此的成就但是還是很瞭解到地方的需求給我們很多環境部未來要做的事情給我們收穫很多也感謝"},{"start":6486.005,"end":6512.877,"text":"不會裡面的同仁來參與我覺得那個對澎湖的發展也是非常重要在這邊特別感謝我剛剛提了這些就請那個次長一各位幫忙報告因為接下來我們將要未來我們國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做我們是未來服役的先副長這邊也幫忙一下好謝謝邱委員特別謝謝吳釗緯"},{"start":6515.182,"end":6524.752,"text":"今天排的這樣子很有意義的一個大家討論好感謝大家謝謝好謝謝邱委員好謝謝下一位請黃秀芳黃委員謝謝主席我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":6543.045,"end":6558.341,"text":"黃委員部長好部長我今天先幾個議題跟民眾可能比較有切身關係就是我們在淨零轉型的政策當中那也一直鼓勵我們的民眾要去這個最切身的就是說可能有原本的這個"},{"start":6559.162,"end":6560.402,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生福利部長"},{"start":6587.709,"end":6598.792,"text":"環境部跟經濟部是不是有什麼樣的這個配套可以鼓勵民眾去購買這個電動機車那一方面這個也是我們的政策嘛對不對那像這樣子的話你們要怎麼樣讓這個電動機車的這個市售的這個比例能夠提升"},{"start":6608.201,"end":6636.652,"text":"剛剛黃委員的確提到過去三年事實上我們有推動太舊換新但是那時候的確沒有把它列為說換新是應該換電動車那民眾都還是去選擇燃油的因為它價格比較便宜不過我們現在已經在第二期在推動已經有改變做法我們除了鼓勵民眾太舊換新之外"},{"start":6637.072,"end":6662.112,"text":"事實上這個心是電動機車為主那同時增加一個增量抵換換句話說我想這個事業開發單位假如他們包括有一些鹽區要增設它有一些污染排放鹽它可以給民眾誘因去轉換為電動車那就可以有那個"},{"start":6662.913,"end":6684.195,"text":"其實有幾項原因第一個可能比較貴這個也是原因之一再來就是說電池的交換站其實不是那麼便利這個也是原因之一所以我不知道說像可能在市區還比較方便如果說比較鄉下的話它根本都沒有電池的交換站"},{"start":6685.436,"end":6700.922,"text":"那像這樣子的話 你們要怎麼去鼓勵 譬如說一些可能在公務單位的外面 譬如說在公所外面啊可以有這樣的一個電池的交換站 那也許對民眾會不會覺得說我這個也比較便利 那我也願意來換這個電動機車"},{"start":6704.984,"end":6722.456,"text":"時給環環報告我們在前瞻第四期的計畫馬上要推動的就是鼓勵各縣市包括鄉鎮去增設充電樁了有將近5點多億的一個預算所以未來再推動這一塊我相信效果就會更明顯了"},{"start":6723.277,"end":6751.449,"text":"對那的確這個infrastructure由基礎建設充電不變事實上民眾換成電動車的意願就不高那前瞻第四級環境部這一部分的這個工作就是來充實這個基礎的設施那現在已經有八個縣市提出來補助了啦那有會增加將近有400多處的公有廠藝的改善電力那經濟部這一部分就是其他"},{"start":6752.209,"end":6775.138,"text":"場域以及積極的補助所以我們跟經濟部是有一個搭配的做法好那今天經濟部也在這邊嘛我想請教一下就是說你們在鼓勵除了電動機車之外那電動巴士那電動巴士其實有很多我們是希望鼓勵是台產的電動巴士而不是從國外可能是從中國這邊中國製的然後進來台灣再組合"},{"start":6778.619,"end":6778.759,"text":"市長,市長,市長,"},{"start":6806.791,"end":6829.611,"text":"處理環境部這部分就是這個充電樁在公有地的地方偵測充電樁以及鼓勵各縣市開設更多利用電動公車來做營運營運增加多少人我們就會給他補助是鼓勵營運而不是在補助設備這個是我們精進的做法"},{"start":6830.311,"end":6846.79,"text":"其實我覺得現在在各縣市的這個電動巴士其實可以減少這個污染源我們也可以感受得到因為以往這個巴士如果在啟動的時候一定會有一股這個油煙這個油味所以我覺得說漸漸的這種味道是減少了所以我覺得這個是政府"},{"start":6851.415,"end":6876.616,"text":"的一個這個方向那我也希望就是說未來不論是電動機車也好或者是電動巴士應該是要去推動那如果說像現在電動機車不是那麼普及的話那是不是剛剛這個部長講的可能就是電池的這個交換站或充電樁那是鼓勵要去廣設應該是也要廣設才會有辦法去普及"},{"start":6877.698,"end":6878.48,"text":"故體再生難料"},{"start":6885.98,"end":6908.116,"text":"在前陣子我們看到就是說你們有關於這個就是在108年起你們有推動這個可燃的這個廢棄物轉製成固體再生燃料這個SRF那我覺得最近也有聽到就是說有的業者是假SRF的這個名義然後去行"},{"start":6909.136,"end":6921.745,"text":"實質的分化爐也看到50%的廠商可能沒有未依核准的計畫書去操作那我想請教部長像類似這樣子的話是"},{"start":6924.961,"end":6951.918,"text":"你們是你們整個源頭就有問題還是說這些業者他只是用這個名義然後實際上是真的他就是在做混化樓嗎給黃委員報告的確這一塊我們非常謝謝包括很多委員的關心以及媒體的報導那我們也深切去檢討那的確發現以往在包括審查"},{"start":6953.659,"end":6981.533,"text":"SIF生產製造的這一塊以往都是書面審查而已那當然審查的這個工作不只是做環境部有些是歸地方政府因為地方政府他有開設產業發展園區那他們在那個園區裡面設置那那一塊事實上是縣市政府的權責不過中央跟地方本來就一體的所以現在環境部已經積極的包括把生產SIF的規範"},{"start":6982.834,"end":6992.324,"text":"以及使用SRF的規範多做一些修正正在進行當中所以以前只有書審而已對 只有書審那你現在應該要實際到現場去看它是不是有這樣的技術啊沒錯 未來我們會有三個步驟除了書審接下來市營運也要看那接下來在營運當中還要"},{"start":7003.735,"end":7030.983,"text":"隨時去監督我們希望把它更具體的落實也來監測看看到底這些廠商有沒有按照既定的計劃書規範來做我相信未來是可以做很大的改善同時跟委員報告以往我們是把SRF只有一個標準原因是我們是以品質管制的角度來看歐洲他們是以產品的"},{"start":7031.403,"end":7031.703,"text":"中文字幕 沛"},{"start":7062.975,"end":7064.837,"text":"M2事件之後本席也有針對前環保署的"},{"start":7089.297,"end":7096.431,"text":"督察總隊李隊長的部分有提出要求我們要調查"},{"start":7097.657,"end":7122.92,"text":"調查報告完成了嗎?不但完成,也經過考機會、開會通過行政程序我已經批了,我們大概在最近應該會對外去公佈前天請任秘書長說院長也看過了都看過了所以就是說,那我們環境部什麼時候要公佈呢?"},{"start":7124.885,"end":7125.165,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7145.9,"end":7171.014,"text":"速公佈是好謝謝好那再來本席也關心這個就是針對山坡地的開發不當的開發那這個是82年通過的環評那現在他有變更大規模的變更只有被查雖然是新竹縣政府在處理的不過當年82年定稿是環保署前環保署"},{"start":7172.116,"end":7200.31,"text":"的這個環評作業那定稿但是到現在定稿本都沒有上網那請問什麼時候可以上網呢本席已經追了很久了這一點我請我們環保局的劉市長好 崔委員跟崔委員報告一下因為新竹市它有給我們的公文說第一個它手上有一份那另外一份是因為地方政府依照三該辦法裡面也有提到環境評估報告但是那個是83年我們現在在確認那個版本是什麼因為"},{"start":7200.99,"end":7227.263,"text":"因為年代比較久遠那我們先請他去確認因為我們從內政部他因為內政部的那個書件系統上沒有查到那個環評報告書可是當年在環保署審的應該環保署有嘛對我們現在就是在確認那個報告因為他還有提到83年那個版本所以我們現在確認請新竹縣政府確認那如果有好幾個版本我們也希望都能夠上對趕快確認我們把它核對一下那可不可以盡速我們盡快我們跟內政部就要談這些文件把它核對因為畢竟是30年前的檔案"},{"start":7228.003,"end":7238.867,"text":"本席也去地檢署告發了所以也希望公文書能夠盡速出現不要失蹤那麼久再來針對"},{"start":7245.029,"end":7263.02,"text":"部長 就是說我們也在杜拜一起關心這個氣候變遷COP28那現在我們到杜拜也看到這個化石燃料的使用整個杜拜幾乎每天都是PM2.5都超過150"},{"start":7265.541,"end":7280.433,"text":"那部長現在就是說我們國內我也看到我們的空屋的抵換那這個本行因為已經關心非常非常久了十幾年了那也看到環保署要去用環保金額離島減換救車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換"},{"start":7287.398,"end":7302.274,"text":"那我要請問部長這個有經過公正單位的這個抵換的機制就是怎麼換還有呢 譬如說臺北的這個移動污染源臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的這個開發可以嗎我們這個都有審慎的去評估過了嗎 部長"},{"start":7307.547,"end":7332.374,"text":"這一點我可不可以請我們大區區的蔡市長來回覆一下比較細節的部分謝謝委員跟委員報告剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的這個部分是不可以抵換的一定是在同一個空品區所以如果是剛剛委員提到可是市長如果同一個空品區也有問題啊"},{"start":7334.294,"end":7346.059,"text":"市長也非常清楚比如說工業區一直在增量然後在偏鄉減量然後你沒有做流行病學調查或者是健康風險評估的時候你會讓工業區附近的民眾的風險會更高這個是很可怕的"},{"start":7352.142,"end":7363.09,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告其實空氣是流來流去的所以整個我們現在研究的情形是整個空氣流來流去可是那個整個氣流如果都"},{"start":7367.293,"end":7385.269,"text":"都停滯不流動的時候那個污染量是很可怕的啊那你不能說流來流去好像就同一個空品區就可以去抵換這是不對的不是嗎跟委員報告這個其實是研究出來的情形在一個空品區裡面去做抵換"},{"start":7386.15,"end":7410.957,"text":"那這個部分會得到最好的一個減量跟改善的效果我不能夠去相信這個部分請部長好不好部長我要請你了解這個部分是蠻嚴重那是不是可以給本席這個確認是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的底換是不會影響國人健康的那你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢"},{"start":7412.918,"end":7438.01,"text":"我覺得這個是有必要因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制以及地區產業的一個發展但是國人健康比產業發展還要不如產業發展嗎就是說空氣是流通就如我們台灣每到冬季的時候空汙就特別嚴重可是那個是境外的啊"},{"start":7438.59,"end":7463.941,"text":"又不是我們自己產生的部長你講這一句就是表示你是外行空氣空氣冬天空氣不好是境外你這個真的就是你外行化了這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣我在這裡也不攻擊你我是說這個部分你要去底換你要拿出科學的、公正的確認不會危害國人健康"},{"start":7464.537,"end":7464.697,"text":"徐志榮、徐偉仁"},{"start":7491.124,"end":7495.065,"text":"先做一個宣告 今日無臨時提案 謝謝謝謝主席 拜託請薛部長有請薛部長部長好好 許文豪部長跟召委一行這個COP28大家辛苦了啦不會不會 應當的"},{"start":7516.616,"end":7530.815,"text":"我們剛落幕的這個COP28其中今年的會議主題就是目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的那個盤點是工業革命前的那個基準全球平均升溫控制在"},{"start":7532.643,"end":7551.958,"text":"兩度C以內控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限部長您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到雖然我們不是肺炎國有達到我們巴黎協定全球判定的要求了嗎目前看起來事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好了特別是包括"},{"start":7552.938,"end":7571.061,"text":"這次大會通過的一個結議裡面再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍能源效益我大概也有看到您的說明我們都優移其他國家的9%我們好像都有20幾%所以你說的那個三倍不是什麼問題一樣的三倍在這個報紙裡面"},{"start":7580.319,"end":7604.271,"text":"當然不是結論啦早上講的就是倡議倡議這個核能新方向美陸等二十多國富裕全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍當然部長您也有回應了這個標題是說核廢料不解決核能就是假議題啦您講的三個那個"},{"start":7606.18,"end":7607.902,"text":"還有核能安全及全民共識"},{"start":7627.349,"end":7652.194,"text":"它這個三點理由它是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識所以我一直看這個第三點就是包含在第二點嘛您講的是比較正確啦還是要全民的共識我相信全民應該會有共識啦在那個前提之下"},{"start":7654.226,"end":7658.193,"text":"那不禁又讓我想到說我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園"},{"start":7662.735,"end":7690.263,"text":"給習委員報告齁2025即使我們沒有談到火候加減本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠了因為現在核二核三到2025本來也就是要Face out就是要服役了意思就是說到2025我們核能發電都歸零了大概歸零了因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了研議呢時間也過了研議的時間它有一定的程序所以已經也過了嘛"},{"start":7690.796,"end":7696.558,"text":"那重點來了,是不是要經濟部的長官回答?那到時候我們再電過嗎?本來我們的%數是天然氣50、火力30、力能20,早上聽了一下好像"},{"start":7715.208,"end":7741.58,"text":"才10%左右是不是哪一個再生能源沒有不會再生能源是今年就超過10%的對 那我們目標是要20%是不是我們到2026年2026年就可以達到20%就可以達到20%是的這樣可以完全期待那個核能發電廠核能現在統統停掉嗎核能去年8%今年大概剩5%"},{"start":7743.083,"end":7767,"text":"那它原來的狀況就是核一二三大概四百億度簡單的講2025年核能發電2025年的時候月底也不是說一月初啦簡單講是應該講年末啦2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉然後我們台灣的電力不配不夠"},{"start":7768.086,"end":7787.133,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說河山的二號機除役的時間是2025年的五月不是年底啦是五月就會除役我是說最慢啦好那它的狀況是現在的狀況就是整個供電的狀況我們的估計就是都是足夠的我們先來討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳"},{"start":7789.232,"end":7802.962,"text":"所以結論是說2025我說年底啦你說5月啦5月核酸就停掉了以後我們不擔心會切電我們供電是穩定的是的沒有問題是國人"},{"start":7804.909,"end":7825.66,"text":"民生用電、工業用電都可以確保那應該是算很好的消息但是為什麼那些國家他又要倡議說要到2050年提高分農發電三倍呢當然就是因為分農發電是比較"},{"start":7829.625,"end":7842.967,"text":"部長的前提之下,安全、火廢料處理等等,是恆隆發電一方面便宜,二方面可能碳排少"},{"start":7845.042,"end":7869.282,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是比較高的比例他們本身都有合工業就倡議倡議的國家本身他們有合工業這是第一件事第二個件事情就是這個事情的倡議其實是來自於就是要在資本市場取得資金的投注其實遇到了困難所以才會有這個倡議我想說這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況"},{"start":7870.723,"end":7888.877,"text":"那話再講回來雖然2025非核核電都停掉但是畢竟核能發電總比這個火力發電甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排嘛"},{"start":7890.398,"end":7914.909,"text":"應該是這樣子講就是說每一個發電它的優劣狀況不一樣就是就全生命週期來講一方面便宜啦但我的意思是說在部長講的這個前提之下我們是不是還可能還有昏龍發電因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛跟委員報告所以才會說"},{"start":7918.052,"end":7936.111,"text":"譬如我們現在都在講說保持開放的態度當然有關新恆隆技術發展什麼融如何我記得好像沈院長好像也這樣講也不是說2025以後就絕對台灣沒有恆隆發展好像他的態度也不是這樣的"},{"start":7937.679,"end":7963.457,"text":"給習委員報告實際上像美國現在就積極發展核融合因為現有的大部分在商場的大部分都是什麼時候成熟我們也還不知道還沒有成熟那我再跟委員報告一下美國原本在發展叫做小型模組反應器SMR事實上它在兩個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉因為成本要越高"},{"start":7964.338,"end":7991.457,"text":"而且發電的整個效力也跟他們預期的事實上是有落差最後我有點想要講的是說那個參與的國家都國土很寬廣是沒錯他們核廢料處理沒問題我知道好像以前有那個張憲毅的事件其實台電好像也有跟北韓有簽約過就核廢料的處理甚至於跟中國大陸也有太極市長你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":7994.741,"end":8015.2,"text":"好像文獻上我是查到資料是有啦至少有touch我的意思是說那個美國老大你就是那時候就是因為他反對嘛反對這樣子所以就不了了之嘛那我的意思是說像台積電用電量這麼的大那你美國國土又這麼的大"},{"start":8016.297,"end":8032.616,"text":"就是算我們要繼續核能發電的話我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話你美國老大你又要我們台積電的這個電子產品我們萬一電不夠的話你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料我大概的意思是這樣子"},{"start":8040.261,"end":8059.748,"text":"這一題是這樣子就是高階核廢料最終處置這個事情跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事這是第一個第二個是你剛才提到就是說跟其他國家就是核廢料的減容處理那個事情應該是在上上屆"},{"start":8063.129,"end":8084.747,"text":"市長這樣子啦 總歸宜記啦2025非核加嚴 電力可以不用擔心 這個我們聽起來大家就很安心了啦最後一次的委員會 我也不希望副總統霍簡年等一下站起來啦 我也很對不起他啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8088.588,"end":8090.83,"text":"剛剛落幕的聯合國第28COP28"},{"start":8118.07,"end":8138.388,"text":"首度將健康納入討論議程根據世界衛生組織估計由於氣候變遷導致空汙、高溫以及疾病的傳播加劇每年有1.9億人的生命健康安全受到衝擊呼籲各國來加速加強醫療體系的"},{"start":8141.93,"end":8159.975,"text":"應對資源 資源就是說投入經費本次大會有124個國家簽署氣候與健康宣言政府還有開放銀行、慈善機構等等共同承諾投資投入10億美金來對抗氣候變遷帶來的健康危機"},{"start":8162.896,"end":8175.228,"text":"其中,全球基金提供3億美元,路克斐勒基金也打算投入1億美元,還有主辦國阿拉伯聯合大公國和數家慈善機構預計投入7.7億美元,用於因升溫惡化的熱帶疾病。"},{"start":8186.019,"end":8204.438,"text":"大公國內比較熱嘛所以他要投入這個升溫惡化帶來的熱帶疾病那我們回頭來檢視我們國內這幾年來台灣高溫report記錄隨之而來的熱傷害還有高溫疾病越來越多第一線醫師反映啊"},{"start":8205.659,"end":8232.507,"text":"氣候變遷導致疾病傳染途徑增加在原本是以前南部盛行的登革熱這個已逐漸到全臺地區而且出現了兩萬個這個病例有史以來最多的病例那臺灣民眾也深受空氣污染威脅我們必須強化公衛體系的資源所以首先請教環境部長"},{"start":8236.009,"end":8243.822,"text":"在這個明年開增碳費對不對那開增碳費使用在哪方面哪些面向上"},{"start":8245.089,"end":8268.403,"text":"氣候變遷因應法裏面有如列13項啦那我非常支持剛剛張偉英影片裏面有提到事實上利用碳費也來支持整個健康有嗎?我們的有嗎?國內的有支持健康公共衛生體系嗎?呃相關的一個 有沒有?對啊這些開端碳費之後有沒有?"},{"start":8269.94,"end":8288.114,"text":"議員會議員會議員"},{"start":8289.369,"end":8301.656,"text":"公委員報告目前是用於溫室氣體減量還有氣候變遷調適所以沒有公共衛生嘛醫療公共衛生這個碳費沒有放在那邊如果沒有就跟行政院爭取啊"},{"start":8303.772,"end":8328.261,"text":"這是沒有嘛對不對我們來爭取看看未來有沒有可能把它納入所以就是要爭取因為呢我覺得我們跟國際離得很遠並沒有把健康這個綠色健康醫療放進去所以呢碳費沒有放在醫療公共衛生上面所以請跟行政院爭取然後呢我再提醒本次大會呢"},{"start":8330.218,"end":8347.657,"text":"氣候與健康宣言這本次的大會那這個我提醒那另外一個我關心的面向就是醫療產業減碳的議題我們在去年3月公布的臺灣2050年淨零碳排路徑以及策略的總說明"},{"start":8349.339,"end":8374.196,"text":"剛剛部長講到其實裡面講到十二項關鍵戰略中絲毫未見綠色醫療所以八個組織部會中衛福部的角色是真空的十二個項目關鍵戰略沒有見到綠色醫療所以衛福部所以次長我今天今天只有我請衛福部出席對不對只有我邀請你上來所以我要問衛福部"},{"start":8374.776,"end":8395.664,"text":"那衛福部薛部長有提到說對於淨零碳排更直言說上一次我們問他的時候他說非超支債務的因素太多了你說綠色醫療你衛福部的角色說非超支債務的這個因素太多那站在醫療的綠色醫療關口上衛福部明年度只編列多少你知道嗎2000萬以內1965萬"},{"start":8398.425,"end":8426.425,"text":"所以這個六五萬的預算辦理什麼減碳教育所以在醫療還沒減碳轉型之前竟然好像代替了教育部在教育做減碳教育你是教育部在做減碳教育轉型所以請問次長在辦理減碳教育後你把一千九百六十五萬在辦減碳教育在教育之後"},{"start":8428.266,"end":8454.996,"text":"醫療產業在近鄰路上能夠得到什麼的協助呢?跟委員報告一下這裡面的教育其實應該是包含所謂的教育輔導教育什麼?教育以及輔導對啦!就是代替教育部的事情這教育嘛你並沒有爭取來做這個公共衛生的防治啊也不只是這樣綠色公共衛生也不只是這樣我們對於說醫院的時候他應該要怎麼做才對這裡面的檢探教育怎麼做對這對檢探的觀念"},{"start":8457.477,"end":8486.024,"text":"對他第一個觀念要改變那這樣子他第一個就是第一個他成本降低嘛那第二個的話那他本身的對這個裡面的檢探的確是環境是有貢獻的那第一個就是說這裡面的輔導要讓他知道那尤其是他醫院裡面他哪些地方是他可以著手的那這裡面是基本上是有做一些的盤點的事項那經由我們請人然後到醫院裡面進行這輔導的時候那這方面是可以做一些事情的那當然部長所提到的有很多的地方不見得"},{"start":8486.604,"end":8514.751,"text":"以下就能夠做得到的地方那當然是包含我們的上下游採購整個涉及到社會產業的這部分層面的部分那這部分的話需要我們另外在後面後續在 跨部會的對另外再需要其他不管還當然也包含跨部會那逐步的往這方面來推動所以我建議衛福部你知道在2030前子呢我們我們有多少預算嗎在在進行攤牌的預算9000億啊所以衛福部應該要去爭取啊做綠色醫療啊"},{"start":8516.231,"end":8533.999,"text":"對沒有錯那這部分的確是要讓不能不能像部長說的說這個不可非可操之的因素太多不能這樣講應該是我們要主動involve進去啊是循序漸進嘛我們能做的我們趕快先做我們不能做的那跨部會我們一起來看看是怎麼樣逐步的來推動"},{"start":8535.22,"end":8551.381,"text":"市長我提醒你為什麼因為醫療減碳方式太多了舉個例子我曾舉例子說噴一罐氣喘的噴劑呢這個碳排量大概等於汽車跑300公里做改成粉狀粉狀的話馬上降到4公里"},{"start":8552.462,"end":8575.823,"text":"馬上這個汽車跑四公里的這個排放量就夠所以呢這個醫療跟藥物的減量其實是非常是大有可為所以我們該花很多時間我們要來重視這個所以這個衛福部環保部呢都是在政策面向要給予醫療院所足夠的誘因誘因就是說告訴他們這樣做能夠帶來大家好"},{"start":8576.824,"end":8605.091,"text":"對不對 要自主管理說對不對一方面讓他知道那一方面如果這部分可以的話那盡量提供他有營往這方面來走那請問你將來這個醫院如何進行探排查探盤查我們會委託或委託相關的團體然後逐漸進去來協助他來做這方面的盤查那這個我知道你有提到這個近鄰探排的指引對不對但是沒有講到那個時間那個期程吧要多久內"},{"start":8606.111,"end":8634.086,"text":"我們先了解了之後再做排程因為這剛開始現在要再進行的時候先了解這樣排這個排程比較務實有沒有預計大概多久內有多少家醫院要達到探排查探盤查因為呢要不要從醫學中心開始啊等等我們先輔導10家然後看看他們裡面的情形數字大概是先從醫學中心開始嘛對不對對從比較大的這個醫院開始所以呢表示我們衛福部"},{"start":8635.126,"end":8656.028,"text":"有注意到齁那這個COP28在12月落幕嘛對不對12日落幕本次會議六大宣言中健康議題就佔了兩項氣候與健康宣言我講議題啦齁還有氣候健康資金象徵著健康在氣候變化討論中從過去的配角"},{"start":8656.889,"end":8675.437,"text":"要身為氣候行動的核心所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統醫療韌性是什麼呢就因應對策"},{"start":8679.899,"end":8691.531,"text":"要建立高度的醫療韌性的對策來建立醫療衛生系統在為我們國內的今後創造更大的生活福祉這樣兩位部長、部長、次長對嗎?對!謝謝!請關心綠色醫療!謝謝!"},{"start":8711.693,"end":8735.829,"text":"下一位吳欣盈委員謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長 薛部長跟理事長部長還有次長好 吳昭偉好"},{"start":8739.474,"end":8760.106,"text":"謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixed picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來台灣的這個碳用使用率增加那"},{"start":8762.467,"end":8781.316,"text":"自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同角度看這個東西會有不同的解答不知道我的投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說"},{"start":8787.83,"end":8815.794,"text":"在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭的照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個"},{"start":8816.474,"end":8836.334,"text":"公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席"},{"start":8837.728,"end":8860.476,"text":"跟藍區對那同時就是說他也比如說在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond他經驗非常的豐富那他有很多一些這個Private Public Partnership的一些經驗那然後接下來我有一個這個影片跟大家快速的來分享一下"},{"start":8869.189,"end":8895.025,"text":"一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽"},{"start":8910.731,"end":8913.89,"text":"這是在阿布達比的部分可是其他那些都在COP"},{"start":8917.705,"end":8943.374,"text":"今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpharine它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是"},{"start":8944.274,"end":8969.946,"text":"大幅的量產還需要一段時間各個現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享"},{"start":8972.907,"end":8988.816,"text":"所以我想展示就是說其實在台灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一頁William麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion就是週一"},{"start":8989.406,"end":9005.221,"text":"上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會"},{"start":9006.002,"end":9026.113,"text":"所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人"},{"start":9028.794,"end":9041.54,"text":"第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融"},{"start":9049.455,"end":9068.793,"text":"同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的這也代表石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型"},{"start":9071.235,"end":9091.474,"text":"同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國"},{"start":9092.455,"end":9116.403,"text":"然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電"},{"start":9116.943,"end":9133.442,"text":"可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William"},{"start":9134.492,"end":9148.872,"text":"就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的"},{"start":9149.192,"end":9151.693,"text":"全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及"},{"start":9175.2,"end":9202.442,"text":"國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說"},{"start":9203.243,"end":9220.164,"text":"我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型"},{"start":9220.584,"end":9246.175,"text":"我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那"},{"start":9249.634,"end":9269.691,"text":"比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個"},{"start":9277.522,"end":9292.351,"text":"你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的"},{"start":9293.852,"end":9315.874,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是Full Membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對於COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考"},{"start":9316.735,"end":9336.866,"text":"像很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯"},{"start":9338.507,"end":9342.71,"text":"此外,其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆"},{"start":9357.522,"end":9371.796,"text":"中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改"},{"start":9372.496,"end":9394.022,"text":"只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業"},{"start":9395.942,"end":9409.35,"text":"外交部跟行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去"},{"start":9411.451,"end":9432.402,"text":"我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫著Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫著Party Overflow這是什麼意思"},{"start":9432.822,"end":9453.489,"text":"PARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的報告委員這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續的跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極的把相關的窗口不管是經濟部財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些"},{"start":9460.692,"end":9483.665,"text":"全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的那我們用這些政見精確化我們立法院在國會外交台協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路"},{"start":9484.365,"end":9503.133,"text":"當時我在現場的時候,我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候,當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講,我聽到了,就跟你們講說,you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here"},{"start":9503.633,"end":9523.148,"text":"委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方你們要的方式就是說你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你"},{"start":9524.429,"end":9538.577,"text":"然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖"},{"start":9542.799,"end":9554.511,"text":"因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個"},{"start":9559.095,"end":9579.435,"text":"碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位"},{"start":9579.795,"end":9594.161,"text":"那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個10年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎?什麼時候可以做出來?"},{"start":9597.501,"end":9615.472,"text":"跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主"},{"start":9616.328,"end":9629.735,"text":"那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示所以你是說只有三個月能做探費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好這要時間出來謝謝謝謝吳委員下一位陳寅委員"},{"start":9650.903,"end":9652.544,"text":"因為部長已經離開那我就先請這個氣候變遷署的蔡署長"},{"start":9675.168,"end":9699.734,"text":"有請署長委員好署長好這次的第28屆全球的氣候變遷高峰會那環境部有參加這是這次的參加有是有透過這個非政府組織的幫忙嗎是跟委員報告我們向來在參與COP相關的會議都是以"},{"start":9700.174,"end":9714.227,"text":"我們國內的非政府組織也就是NGO的名義來參加那我相信你們這次也有收集不少這個相關的資料回來是那這次的會場是不是區分"},{"start":9715.628,"end":9739.286,"text":"剛剛也有委員提到了這個區分了這個藍區跟綠區嘛那我想請教一下署長綠區在官方文宣上是不是有強調就是要開放給原住民團體跟一般民間組織那希望可以促進原住民團體跟政府的對話是 跟委員報告在主辦國它在會場上面它分為藍區跟綠區最主要藍區是"},{"start":9741.587,"end":9756.535,"text":"需要有這個大費許可的報名的證件才能進去那立區它通常就會開放給沒有持有這個報名證件但是可以當地這個去登記啦或者是這樣子一個方式去進去參觀"},{"start":9758.39,"end":9776.521,"text":"好 那個署長你接下來可不可以回答一下為什麼因為我剛剛有提到但是你在附送回答的時候沒有特別再提因為我剛剛有強調就是說綠區在官方文宣上就是有要開放給原住民團體"},{"start":9778.363,"end":9789.956,"text":"因為我是原住民的立法委員所以我會特別關注這個部分那我想請教署長你可不可以回答就是以你的理解為什麼要特別針對原住民團體來開放呢"},{"start":9792.675,"end":9806.966,"text":"這個部分的話我沒有特別去了解說但是因為在藍區事實上也有周邊會議我沒有要關心藍區的部分我在這邊要跟你討論綠區特別開放給原住民團體這個部分"},{"start":9808.587,"end":9836.614,"text":"我想因為其實氣候公約他非常重視就是跟原住民還有跟這個相關的團體的一些對話跟溝通所以主辦國他或許有這個規劃但這個部分確實我沒有因為我今年沒有到現場去參加我想這個有沒有到現場應該是沒有關係那我覺得其實在整個氣候變遷下是這樣子如果署長不清楚也沒關係"},{"start":9837.634,"end":9857.535,"text":"那我今天把這樣的觀念特別在這邊跟署長、讓署長了解一下那也在座的各位也要特別的注意一下就是一個很重要的原因在氣候變遷下最先衝擊的族群任何國家的政府其實都很清楚的就是"},{"start":9858.215,"end":9884.905,"text":"大自然環境最密切的族群其實就是原住民族我們因為在這個環境迫害之下整個原住民族的生存權、發展權甚至這個土地自然資源的權利都是被嚴重傷害的所以這個部分特別在這邊提出來讓署長瞭解因為"},{"start":9886.092,"end":9908.795,"text":"您坐在一個非常重要的位置就是氣候變遷署你是署長所以這一點我希望從現在開始可以特別注意因為未來這個部分到時候我想時間再久一點你會更清楚知道原住民在這整個氣候變遷的一個扮演的角色"},{"start":9909.355,"end":9910.016,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":9917.965,"end":9940.741,"text":"在這個1992年的巴西里約召開的這個里約環境跟發展宣言宣言的部分全部27項有規範各國政府環境權利與責任的基本原則其中的第22項揭示了原住民族的傳統習慣與智慧在環境的永續發展上扮演關鍵的角色因此在各國的政府"},{"start":9941.161,"end":9956.11,"text":"都是要肯定並且支持援助民族參與氣候變遷衝擊一下環境的保護、管理跟監測我想這個概念很重要那身為氣候變遷署的署長要請您特別了解"},{"start":9958.491,"end":9972.102,"text":"這個概念所以我接下來我要請問署長在未來在您帶領的這個氣候變遷署各項措施的計劃是不是應該根據地球憲章的基本原則"},{"start":9972.982,"end":10000.123,"text":"鼓勵並支持援助民族運用我們的智慧與生活習慣來協助你們落實淨零排碳的工作請問署長你支不支持這樣子的一個方向是 完全支持好 謝謝署長那我接下來要請教就是說那我可不可以請署長你們的這個氣候變遷署可以進一步的加以規劃那針對我剛剛提的這些加以規劃可以嗎"},{"start":10000.803,"end":10010.911,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在今年立法院三讀通過氣候變遷因應法也很清楚的把原住民就是我們在擬定氣候變遷各項政策的時候必須要將原住民的相關的跟氣候變遷不管是在減緩跟調適都要納入好那所以你們開始規劃了嗎我們現在在進行的包括就是國家氣候變遷行動綱領"},{"start":10024.762,"end":10040.196,"text":"還有接下來再進行調試計畫都會進行都會納入對都會納入那請問就是你有很你有很認真的把這個原住民族的這個部分你怎麼樣已經加入了這樣子的規劃了嗎"},{"start":10042.237,"end":10064.046,"text":"這個會隨著每一項計畫在實施就是規劃跟提出的期程的時候那我們會開始跟包括跟原住民主管機關還有相關的團體那包括這個最重要就是我們立法院各相關的委員這邊我們都會開始來進行討論因為我也沒有接到你們任何的邀約啦所以看起來是還沒有開始"},{"start":10066.076,"end":10091.358,"text":"對 就跟委託沒有關係那我剛剛講這個規劃你需要多少時間來規劃我們現在因為正在規劃是下一期的國家氣候變遷的就是階段管制目標還有這個行政計畫這個部分我們會把它納入那另外的話就是在進行這個氣候變遷調適的相關的作業這個是明年會開始啟動那這部分我們也會進行"},{"start":10092.299,"end":10108.833,"text":"明年開始啟動那等一下那所以我再問你你還是沒有回答我問題你需要多少時間來規劃好原住民相關的這個特別是原住民相關的這個部分你需要多少時間規劃那跟我們報告我們在至少三個月內我們先就這些計劃跟擬定的時候那需要進行跟這個溝通的一些原則我們先請問你這三個月要跟誰溝通我們先跟這個先你把我們先盤點"},{"start":10121.263,"end":10123.666,"text":"依照《氣候變遷因應法》需要進行推動我剛剛說明的"},{"start":10126.011,"end":10149.016,"text":"這些方案、計劃或者是措施先做一個盤點然後接下來就是需要跟原住民相關團體的這個進行跟進行方式我們來進行討論那剛剛你有特別點名到就是要跟各位原住民的這個立法委員來溝通那我也想要請教你是要跟這一屆的立委溝通還是跟下一屆的原住民立委溝通我跟委員報告我們現在是三個月我們先進行要先盤點有哪一些事項"},{"start":10154.662,"end":10180.951,"text":"有一些方案措施那需要來提的我們先三個月內先盤點出來那接下來才進一步去提說需要溝通的對象那所以所以你後面才要盤點溝通的對象所以你又說你要先跟原住民的立法委員溝通我真的是有點聽不太懂就是說你的意思是其實剩下這個時間你也沒有要跟我們溝通的意思"},{"start":10181.773,"end":10205.92,"text":"我想這個都是持續都會再溝通那我們現在因為剛剛委員關心我們氣候法裡面因為會包括的就是減緩跟調適的這些方案跟計劃那我們先盤點出來有哪一些到底現在接下來有哪一些所以你說三個月就是很明顯其實這一屆的原住民立委你是根本不需要溝通的其實跟委員報告因為我們的任期就到1月"},{"start":10208.201,"end":10226.684,"text":"還沒有你的三個月我們裡面的成員可能不一定是一樣但是我很清楚告訴你我會繼續在這邊其實我們在這段期間內也是一直有跟委員包括我們在進行氣候法的修法當時的在訂定的時候也都持續有在做溝通"},{"start":10228.171,"end":10252.246,"text":"我是沒有太強烈的感覺就是因為我很擔心你溝通的對象不對了啦好那至少我剛剛點出了原住民的這一塊看起來署長從第一個回答並沒有很有概念所以我在這邊我鼓勵你好好去研究一下好那再不然"},{"start":10253.342,"end":10281.826,"text":"我們即便現在在忙選舉但是我想我們的任期在這邊這個做一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛辦公室還是都有在運作啊是我們會積極的對啊你總不會等說要確認我在個我們1月13號確定我有選上之後才要趕快來溝通才要開始慢慢規劃吧是跟我們這段期間其實一直都有跟各個委員在做溝通是有嗎"},{"start":10284.244,"end":10307.116,"text":"我們辦公室有嗎這個我們會改善有嗎對啊你不要亂講話啊就是各個委員我們辦公室就是沒有所以我今天特別提出來所以要請署長特別注意嘛對啊那你要三個月我很擔心啊那你如果要溝通其實你從現在就可以常常來溝通啊我八台都開著是謝謝"},{"start":10307.996,"end":10329.429,"text":"對啊所以我最後再請教一下世界銀行去年指出全球已經有68個國家或區域區域已經有這個碳定價了那今年會有多少國家有定價這個都是要依照那個世界銀行跟各國去做的這個趨勢那在今年初的報告是73個國家或地區"},{"start":10331.107,"end":10353.037,"text":"今年會有73個國家跟地區我想是這樣我們台灣的這個碳交易平台的相關法則不知道現在是進度怎麼樣那是不是有如你們的預期那我比較好奇的就是說你什麼時候來完成訂定這樣子"},{"start":10354.418,"end":10368.708,"text":"我們現在的時程是預計就是在最近會先把這個碳費徵收的相關的規劃來做一個預告那明年的話明年1月會開始就是針對費率的部分會進行這個由費率審議會來做討論"},{"start":10372.079,"end":10396.726,"text":"那所以什麼時候完成?你有預估的時間嗎?我們現在很清楚就是明年的碳排放都會被計到這個碳費徵收的範圍也就是說明年開始這個碳費徵收就會上路那你打算一段大概訂多少錢?這個要由明年的碳費的費率審議會來做討論跟決定好所以那個我剛剛前面問的就是說你預估何時完成訂定目前你們是?"},{"start":10397.762,"end":10423.282,"text":"沒有確確預期的時間會在明年的第一季把包括這是碳費的徵收辦法還有費率審議會這個這個費率的部分來做明年第一季大概就會做確定好那這樣子我我只是提醒吼我們這個各國的經驗其實看起來應該都是越早實施好那整個挑戰就會越小所以我在這邊特別提醒署長好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":10431.567,"end":10438.575,"text":"謝謝本日會議詢答全部結束委員王婉玉、賴會員楊耀會題書面質詢列入記錄還有一位莊敬成委員書面質詢列入記錄"},{"start":10447.503,"end":10475.097,"text":"刊登公報現在做以下決議報告以及詢答完畢委員質詢未答覆或是補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有邀期限者從其鎖定本次會議議事錄授權由主席核定後確定本次會議到此結束散會"},{"start":10477.892,"end":10478.073,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10511.798,"end":10527.8,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆全體委員會第12屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發"}]}},{"id":"15353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15353","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a05f8a018c8dfe1c04cd7447017296271146d53a332764a53534fcf55075ba2b485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案」（公務預算部分））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-13","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:00:03+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121360","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-13T17:43:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":31377,"委員發言時間":"09:00:03 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並委員會決議辦理 有沒有意見沒有意見通過第二案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第三案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第四案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第五案 並委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":2495.526,"end":2505.516,"text":"第六案 改組結議 沒人見通過第七案 改組結議 沒人見通過第八案 框刪科目 我們就不討論第九案"},{"start":2514.957,"end":2522.501,"text":"第十案 改組決議沒有意見通過第十一案 通商第十二案 秘魯約決議辦理沒有意見通過第十三案 檢列150萬年"},{"start":2541.605,"end":2555.852,"text":"請部長因為這個涉及到本部和外管的那個資訊的安全的處理那就建請免於檢列是不是這個是什麼測案好不好"},{"start":2557.566,"end":2572.598,"text":"主結議改組結議十三案改組結議沒有意見通過十四案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十五案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十六案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十七案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":2577.682,"end":2577.882,"text":"現在就看18案"},{"start":2602.469,"end":2604.892,"text":"改組決議19案改組決議20案凍結100萬元20案改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":2628.347,"end":2652.996,"text":"委員長這個我講一下好嗎就是說我們知道之前這個中美洲銀行有弊案發生那民間團體也公開去揭露這個事情所以實地黨團這邊是希望我們在研議用現有的台灣獎學金制度來"},{"start":2654.383,"end":2655.664,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":2672.312,"end":2699.543,"text":"二十三案改組結議沒有一件通過二十四案改組結議沒有一件通過二十五案並委員會結議辦理沒有一件通過二十六案改組結議沒有一件通過二十七、二十八都是通山那就二十九案並委員會結議辦理沒有一件通過三十案通山三十一案"},{"start":2701.089,"end":2702.013,"text":"委員會啦 委員會已經動200了"},{"start":2708.794,"end":2732.633,"text":"請部長說明一下好不好請部長說明一下好不好好 說明一下好 院長 各位委員因為那個涉及到故邦的這個事情我們每年都需要跟這些友邦去跟他們簽約那如果說有凍結的話可能會有自愛難行的這個部分所以建議就併委員會決議的那委員會決議是多少四百五"},{"start":2739.333,"end":2765.127,"text":"委員會動結450萬好那31案就併委員結辦理32案也併委員結辦理好不好好33案也併委員結辦理好34案也併委員結辦理好35案改組決議那沒有意見通過好報告部長36案通三35案怎樣行政單位有哪一個案35案就"},{"start":2766.361,"end":2771.584,"text":"改組決議跟院長報告一下有關於34案我們已經跟邱委員的辦公室已經做過溝通了所以這個就建議撤案第三十四案改組決議好不好改組決議好 改組決議好冷人在這裡欸應委員 這一半你對他都沒有傷過"},{"start":2795.794,"end":2796.094,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2822.276,"end":2849.113,"text":"這個都通過了36案通山到這裡就稍微休息一下看36案主決議吧通山公務通山公務不是主決議我們要改主決議要改主決議通山再加一個主決議沒有啊我們就把這一案改成主決議你覺得是屬於通山的公務等一下他會有刪除的對啊我們在刪除前就改主決議"},{"start":2851.498,"end":2872.722,"text":"37案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過38案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過39案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過40案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":2877.785,"end":2878.506,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2904.241,"end":2918.67,"text":"46案主決議﹖沒有意見就照案通過47案測案48案主決議﹖沒有意見就照案通過48案等一下48我們委員會已經有討論過 看是不是能夠併合委員會決議處理48案併合委員會等一下 剛才不是說通過嗎"},{"start":2932.227,"end":2938.57,"text":"委員會決議是什麼委員會決議是什麼我們那是主決議耶主決議怎麼會併委員會 事發案是主決議委員會決議是請我們提供書面報告 那我們正在轉移中書面報告 三個月期書面報告"},{"start":2959.497,"end":2985.507,"text":"那我們就是通過就好了啊就兩個議案啊好啦好啦好啦好就這樣齁好來49案主決議文字調整沒有意見等一下有文字修正文字修正對院長你有看到嗎文字修正49案他沒有給你嗎好49案主決議有文字修正剛剛才調的有修正通過"},{"start":2988.848,"end":2989.328,"text":"51案 主決議51案 主決議"},{"start":3016.741,"end":3035.81,"text":"主席測案好了,兩個留一個就好了五十五十一留一個就好了主決議,沒有建議測案通過沒有沒有,我們建議測案因為最主要就是說那個以色列在我們駐以色列代表處在協助我們國人離開這個其實是非常有效率啦所以我們建議測案不是不是,我們其實是希望說"},{"start":3036.87,"end":3037.01,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3060.814,"end":3064.097,"text":"謝偉我這樣講好不好前面那個文字齁不是寫理想文這主要是後面要求外交部那這樣就好了"},{"start":3086.681,"end":3095.284,"text":"好,就是原要求外交部原要求,前面兩行消掉書面報告這兩個案子其實是一樣的?可以嗎?兩個案子要並一案就好了,其實書面報告就好了可以嗎?"},{"start":3101.601,"end":3103.883,"text":"五十一案也不是很像"},{"start":3131.567,"end":3137.308,"text":"五十案要保留五十案主決議就文字修正修正通過啦好不好來再看一下"},{"start":3161.732,"end":3161.832,"text":"主決議主決議"},{"start":3191.277,"end":3194.859,"text":"五十三案改組決議 每日間通過 五十四案屬於通商"},{"start":3220.596,"end":3243.546,"text":"阿不然我們這個就討論討論這個通案啦好 謝謝部長10點50要休息到齊不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以"},{"start":3251.601,"end":3259.227,"text":"市長要說通山,不然你要十點五十給我休息不要休息"},{"start":3346.102,"end":3346.563,"text":"各位先進"},{"start":3368.211,"end":3368.652,"text":"這很恐怖"},{"start":3470.011,"end":3499.398,"text":"好那各位先進我們就繼續開會現在要進行國防部主管的部分預算主管部分那我現在介紹一下列席的首長介紹國防部部長邱國正先生接下來就請大家看我們的五十五案"},{"start":3501.533,"end":3518.142,"text":"那改組協議有沒有意見?好,沒有意見通過56案改組協議沒有意見通過57案改組協議沒有意見通過57案有沒有意見?改動百分之一喔?那個是商量一下,改組協議好了"},{"start":3519.417,"end":3519.637,"text":"委員會動五千萬"},{"start":3547.785,"end":3557.439,"text":"五十七案就凍結百分之一,沒有見通過五十八案通三,不處理五十九案、六十案都通三,不處理"},{"start":3558.24,"end":3561.282,"text":"五十九還沒有挑過五十九還沒有挑過"},{"start":3574.91,"end":3598.095,"text":"五八五九六十都十一五三不是不是我們還是要說明一下我們是不是請部長說明一下就是我們的國防安全研究院為什麼他是拿國防部的預算但是他卻在二月的時候接受媒體的專訪那時候他就可以預測說一定哪一個總統候選人一定會贏這是什麼樣子的"},{"start":3602.135,"end":3623.474,"text":"他這個報告,他個人訪問以後,他個人表達,但我們這個事情已經跟國防院、國防院有表達過,不疑。國防院的董事長,以前我們老的長官,他也跟我講很抱歉,以後不會有這種類案發生。這不代表國防院,他真的是個人,特別跟委員報告。"},{"start":3624.335,"end":3638.842,"text":"他是在國防安全研究院的會議嗎?在媒體在政任節目的時候他自己就表達的這一點我們也真的跟國防院一直在表達在不疑"},{"start":3640.101,"end":3664.337,"text":"因為他是代表國防研究安全研究院的所長那他在外面發表也就是代表他這個身份去發表那這之後他還有再發表相關的言論嗎?後面就沒有了,我們後面最起碼我們都要克盡我們職責跟他勸導委員做說明是吧?好謝謝委員"},{"start":3670.265,"end":3670.445,"text":"611案凍結10萬年,並委員會結議辦理61"},{"start":3694.375,"end":3698.078,"text":"並委員結辦理好 同樣的公務嘛好 沒問題就通過63案並委員結辦理那沒問題就通過"},{"start":3703.797,"end":3726.186,"text":"66組結議"},{"start":3727.639,"end":3745.291,"text":"呃 66案原本有跟委員辦公室討論過 原本是統一策案 現在委員好像有一些的指導主決議文字調整是吧 趕快調整好吧 那我們做這個文字調整 好來主決議了66案 本來就是主決議嘛 66案主決議 文字調整了 那民運監視修正通過67案主決議 議題案辦理 好 民運監視照案通過"},{"start":3756.16,"end":3778.437,"text":"68案主決議68案保留69案主決議主決議本部配合辦理但是建議就是說原來是一個月改成三個月提出書面報告我再重新宣布一下就是說如果有碰到一個月兩個月"},{"start":3779.905,"end":3781.686,"text":"69案就主決議文書修正修正通過"},{"start":3802.752,"end":3827.707,"text":"70案主決議 文字修正 文字修正 那沒有意見就修正通過71案主決議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過72案主決議 並委員會決議辦理 有沒有意見 沒有意見通過73案主決議 有沒有意見 一體案辦理 照案通過74案主決議 我們建議文字做修正"},{"start":3829.502,"end":3845.459,"text":"七十四案主決議 文字做修正 沒意見就修正通過七十五案主決議議題案辦理好 院長講一分補充講一分鐘啦就是說這個案基本上我跟裴同游院長去美國國會訪問啦齁"},{"start":3847.361,"end":3849.522,"text":"原來美國的國會議員有這麼多位美軍出身﹖戰鬥機飛行員﹖許多的將領﹖包括中階﹖基層的軍人"},{"start":3869.588,"end":3885.719,"text":"有些國會議員的門口就會放說這些照片是美軍這幾年來在全球各地為國犧牲的軍人也就是說他的這個"},{"start":3887.241,"end":3906.723,"text":"軍人在美國的reportation非常高部長也知道這個狀況所以我基本上會希望說光部針對如何提升我國國軍的榮耀跟社會上的地位reportation能夠有一些努力"},{"start":3908.004,"end":3935.703,"text":"就是說一個社群一個國家如果說對於這些為國家犧牲奉獻的人沒有一個基本的敬意的話那這個共同體是很難這個有一個團結感的所以就這部分尤其是說美國的許多的這個從軍的人到最後離開這個軍隊之後他事實上在政界跟商界也獲得許多的敬重"},{"start":3936.583,"end":3960.649,"text":"尤其是說軍人的這種堅毅果斷紀律的這個形象應該是可以這個深植人心的也希望廣部能夠注意這個部分這樣我們隨時任何活動都把這些加進去平常也做宣導強調是 謝謝委員好 那75案主決議我們就照樣通過"},{"start":3964.063,"end":3985.821,"text":"七十六案主決議七十六案是有關於三軍儀隊撤出中正紀念堂的提案昨天有討論這個案子是保留建議併案保留七十六案保留院長補充講一句話因為我覺得國防部其實很重要一個部分就是說你的任務就是保家衛國"},{"start":3987.142,"end":3987.202,"text":"主席"},{"start":4005.769,"end":4031.254,"text":"放在這個地方做這個中正紀念堂然後三軍一隊這個對光部是好的因為這裡反而是捲入了一個台灣的歷史上非常有爭議性的issue所以在這個基礎之上真的不管是文化部或光部尤其是過去事實上在陳水扁總統執政的時候光部的三軍一隊事實上是有撤離這個中正紀念堂的"},{"start":4031.414,"end":4032.074,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分．"},{"start":4056.269,"end":4057.57,"text":"這個題目連美人都必講"},{"start":4082.858,"end":4097.726,"text":"那現在坦白講這個總預算今年又出現了有關這些問題市長要徹底解決也就是說下一屆可能要提促進轉移生意條約再修正案另外"},{"start":4098.379,"end":4119.937,"text":"另外有關於中正經常組織法都要修才能夠讓社會上能夠徹底來面對這個問題來解決所以這是暫保留每年都要討論但是偷偷的捨不得不知道同項將來怎麼樣都要修法的好不好好 保留好 謝謝接下來77案主決議那併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":4123.516,"end":4127.417,"text":"主決議議題案辦理議題案辦理議題案辦理照案通過接下來就請大家看70案70案改正類800萬"},{"start":4150.98,"end":4178.93,"text":"七十九案 七十九案 七十九案 整列八百萬 是整列八百萬 好好 那就通過八十案改組決議 沒意見通過好 那院長再補充一下因為八十案當然國防部做了許多文字上的修正啦齁但是基本上意義意義跟我們原意差不多所以就這部分我也同意啦齁但是也希望說國防部能夠針對這種"},{"start":4180.43,"end":4206.838,"text":"新型態的戰爭包括像現在以色列跟阿馬斯或是烏克蘭跟俄羅斯的這個狀況新型態的戰爭並不是說變成是說不是說只有軍人跟軍人之間的戰鬥也包括就是說全民國防等等之類的尤其是說你可以看到像烏克蘭的這個狀況尤其是他跟他的敵對的國家他的實力相差很懸殊的情況之下"},{"start":4208.999,"end":4209.2,"text":"主席"},{"start":4234.332,"end":4258.008,"text":"那80案就改組決議 沒有意見就通過啦好 81案改組決議 沒有意見通過82案 併委員會決議辦理 那沒有意見通過83案 也併委員會決議辦理 那個不好意思那個 院長 我們83案是不是請國防部我們是不是可以溝通 是不是改組決議你們同意嗎 好不好 我們改組決議好不好提書面報告改組決議是吧 不凍結"},{"start":4264.379,"end":4272.525,"text":"就凍結併委員會辦理併委員會辦理 那就併委員會辦理好了凍結的部分併委員會辦理提案改組結議我們重新更正 我們就同意併委員會辦理凍結併委員會辦理凍結併委員會辦理沒有意見就通過巴士案併委員會辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":4295.608,"end":4304.716,"text":"85 通山 暫不處理86 仲傑10萬年事務室也併委員接辦理86 也併委員接辦理87 88 都通山就暫不處理好不好"},{"start":4314.55,"end":4341.048,"text":"按照通算處理8989我要講一下喔院長雖然說我們現在已經就是同意那個國防部的文字修正但是我們必須要了解喔就是海軍的軍品軍用器材跟資訊管理系統軍品的數量金額都常常發生錯誤而且是不是小錯是巨額的錯誤喔那"},{"start":4341.856,"end":4352.474,"text":"這些都沒有查出原因而讓他一直就是延期這樣子漏息一直都沒有糾正沒有改變我覺得這不對的是不是"},{"start":4355.474,"end":4373.534,"text":"我跟委員報告,每次各軍種有這些問題的話,我們都是即時來做一個檢討改進的。但委員就講有些個案,我想建議我們同仁海軍會再去跟委員做說明,把哪一個個案還沒有處理,或處理不夠周圍的,這樣我們知道以後我們來強化。"},{"start":4374.955,"end":4375.496,"text":"民眾感到更混亂"},{"start":4395.44,"end":4406.826,"text":"我們單獨來跟委員做說明報告哪個個案我們怎麼做的,去跟委員做說明我們就按照文字修正結議,就文字修正好,每一件通過,90案"},{"start":4422.924,"end":4436.784,"text":"委員會接辦理嗎不是 院長我說明一下這個九十案也有跟部長說明過就是說這個光部在新竹市的這個寡婦樓的都更案那在"},{"start":4438.126,"end":4456.565,"text":"參議集團這個行賄這個當時的沉鄉署的嚴建署沉鄉分署長洪嘉宏兩千萬的匯款那在這個那他同時又新組另外兩個遠雄的都更案所會四千五百萬被收押那他最近已經被判刑八年兩個月"},{"start":4457.586,"end":4477.543,"text":"是非常清楚就是說這個判決書上面寫的就是這個分署長那掌握了資格審查中所有的細節跟決策權那因此而讓這個倡議集團下面的這個李明開發拿下這個都更案而且他基本上就是唯一家符合資格的廠商"},{"start":4478.063,"end":4478.323,"text":"判刑"},{"start":4498.469,"end":4522.319,"text":"這個倡議集團的這個應該是說這個高層基本上是被緩起訴表示說基本上他們都有認罪的這個狀況之下所以是沒有道理說讓這樣的違法取得的標案的廠商還繼續在施作光譜的這個都更案所以我基本上會認為說這個就是應該要解除契約收回這個國有土地"},{"start":4522.759,"end":4545.268,"text":"那至於說未來再怎麼處理的話﹖當然就是用公開透明的方式去進行﹖或者是有相關的作用那我同樣也質詢過這個公共工程委員會的吳哲成主委﹖他的見解基本上也是一樣的就是說沒有道理讓一個行賄的廠商還繼續讓他施作我們政府的這個都更案"},{"start":4546.108,"end":4561.056,"text":"所以部長就這部分的話我覺得這個是非常明確的而且這個已經發生這樣的舞弊的事情的時候也對國防部如果要繼續施作的話基本上對國防部的reputation是不好的"},{"start":4563.064,"end":4581.022,"text":"我跟總統報告,這個案子總統很關切,也連續跟我們講好幾次我們這案子辦的時候,據我了解,它行賄跟受賄的,未必是同一個關係所以目前我們當然也是這樣,假如有政績確鑿,該要退就退,該要重來就重來"},{"start":4581.442,"end":4581.702,"text":"主席"},{"start":4601.421,"end":4626.373,"text":"當然就是說行政院要召開會議要集國防部或者是說這個內政部跟工程會當然我們也是這個肯定這個態度但是部長我必須要補充一下因為那時候我去質詢的時候是副部長在你沒在那他的回應也是說因為現在是一審判八年兩個月所以這個案件還沒去定驗還沒確定但是事實上不是這樣因為這個案件"},{"start":4627.293,"end":4649.947,"text":"當然還沒確定 還沒二審三審 他現在上訴訟可是我剛剛就是要告訴你說 他已經認罪了不管是行賄的人 或者是說收賄的官員 都是認罪或者貪污智慧條例收了兩千萬 甚至還有另外兩個案是四千五百萬其實他的收賄案件 這個加起來是將近九千萬"},{"start":4651.368,"end":4673.18,"text":"那不可能判8年2個月﹖是因為他有認罪﹖所以他有認罪的情況之下﹖二審是不可能﹖也許行度有可能改變﹖但是這已經很﹖機率很低了﹖因為這個是7年以上有期徒刑之罪﹖所以他已經認罪﹖行會也認罪﹖然後官員也認罪的情況之下﹖"},{"start":4673.88,"end":4695.523,"text":"二審是不可能改判無罪所以國防部我認為國防部的這個憂慮是多慮啦坦白講因為你們也應該有這個法治師嘛就是說你們應該也有法律的專家可以去諮詢才對那部長你可能可以多去了解而且實務上"},{"start":4697.004,"end":4721.319,"text":"並不是說定讞之後才要去跟他解約,沒有這不可能是說是...是,我也跟總統說啊就法律觀點來講的話,沒有到最後確認都有可能會變,但我不預設立場,可能會有一個轉變但就我們立場來講,你沒有定論的東西,我們就另外做出一個決定萬一將來出一些問題,它有一個差錯,那我們跟著有差錯"},{"start":4722.819,"end":4750.469,"text":"這個後果是一發不可收拾我比較可能要賠出更多一個補償金這樣的話我國安部承擔不起的那這應該是說公共會公共工程委員會就這個部分的話其實他的這個條文裡面也寫得非常清楚就是說公共會的見解也認為說不用到定焉的程度然後本來就是說你在這個有相關的問題產生的時候也可以去解約啦"},{"start":4751.129,"end":4752.169,"text":"90案保留91案是不是也併委員會接辦理"},{"start":4776.121,"end":4776.441,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4793.933,"end":4820.674,"text":"9393939393"},{"start":4821.152,"end":4822.773,"text":"是不是併委員會辦理要扣牧場他們去調整"},{"start":4853.729,"end":4854.269,"text":"96案 檢列20萬人 沒有見通過"},{"start":4884.141,"end":4894.903,"text":"好來97案是不是也要動 併委員會好 同意 併委員會辦理97案併委員會接辦理 沒人見通過98案建議改列組決議好 98案改組決議好 我們那個98案我們同意併委員會辦理併委員會接辦理 好來"},{"start":4914.264,"end":4918.586,"text":"99 案同意101 案改組結議沒有見通過102 案改組結議沒有見通過103 案改檢例這邊是五十萬"},{"start":4937.892,"end":4940.312,"text":"104案是不是因為前面凍結了3000多萬那這邊再凍結4000萬是不是病委員會結辦?病委員會啦一億多而言凍4000萬"},{"start":4964.076,"end":4964.617,"text":"改組決議105通3106通3107改檢列30萬元"},{"start":4986.873,"end":4991.257,"text":"這個是賴市法委員的這位有跟委員辦公室都說明溝通過"},{"start":5018.998,"end":5020.541,"text":"108通3我們就暫不處理109就通3也暫不處理1010"},{"start":5029.314,"end":5049.044,"text":"動結五十萬年 要不要病委員會決議辦理 同意 110病委員會決議辦理 沒意見通過11通3 12通3 13通3 都到時候病案處理了11宿主決議 那有沒有意見 沒意見通過11宿主決議 同意 沒意見召喚通過"},{"start":5059.996,"end":5083.812,"text":"116 組結議同意一體案辦理17 組結議一體案辦理好 並...照案通過啊就照案通過嘛好 照案通過好 來18 組結議文字修正文字修正 組結議修正通過好 同意19 組結議"},{"start":5088.42,"end":5111.624,"text":"議題案辦理一二零組決議一二零組決議這邊我們可能要做個補充說明要求本部要每一季把那個軍頭案執行的不管是公開或機密的都要發文給立法院我們記咧 我們記不要"},{"start":5119.534,"end":5140.546,"text":"委員這邊跟您做個報告我們跟美國的軍售案從明年開始他的財務清整頻率從每一年改成每半年這已經是對所有軍售國裡面密度最高的那如果我們每一季提供報告的話那不要寄咧我們改成每半年但是機密報告的部分我們依委員會的機密會議來做報告沒辦法提供書面資料專案啦專案機密報告那你這樣啦"},{"start":5148.39,"end":5172.615,"text":"他有修正文字嗎?我們有修正文字了每半年可以啦每半年可以上下會期每半年你這個要機密預算要在機密報告嗎?對啊就是專案機密報告那這早晚就可以排了"},{"start":5175.029,"end":5181.633,"text":"配合立法院上下半年會期以公開資料方式提供令事需要由立法院外交國防委員會要求專案機密報告"},{"start":5203.797,"end":5204.738,"text":"一二零組結議文字修正"},{"start":5229.673,"end":5238.564,"text":"修正文字的120組結議修正通過121組結議同意辦理好 照案通過122組結議同意辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":5245.526,"end":5268.615,"text":"一二三主決議 同意辦理 照案通過一二四主決議一二四我們這邊要做個補充說明因為這邊提到說請國安部針對於軍事投資建案作業規定等三項的行政規則在修訂的時候要向立法院提出專案報告並將現行的規定送外委會來備查我們是不是可以建議就是說因為我們每年的配合預算書表送立法院的時候有"},{"start":5269.195,"end":5271.577,"text":"合併年度五年兵力整建計畫及施政計畫報告向立法院外交國防委員會報告"},{"start":5295.094,"end":5296.434,"text":"修正通過修正通過"},{"start":5321.226,"end":5331.813,"text":"一二七組結議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過一二三也是改三個月跟書面報告一二三也是修正通過一二八組結議配合辦理 照案通過一二九組結議 配合辦理 照案通過"},{"start":5347.062,"end":5370.445,"text":"一三零 主決議做文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過一三一 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見就通過一三二 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見通過一三三 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見通過一三四 測案一三五 主決議文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":5372.466,"end":5386.533,"text":"136 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過137 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過138 測案139 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過140 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過141 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過142 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過143 主決議"},{"start":5402.349,"end":5426.047,"text":"有沒有意見配合辦理好 召喚通過144主決議文字修正好144主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過145撤案好報告院長這邊是不是普通報告第96案103案跟107案是三檢案那是不是這邊也是同一科目進行調整"},{"start":5427.748,"end":5427.908,"text":"國安部長"},{"start":5457.831,"end":5458.631,"text":"謝謝 接下來就國安局"},{"start":5475.874,"end":5477.815,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5500.972,"end":5501.152,"text":"主席"},{"start":5516.025,"end":5523.488,"text":"現在大家在意的是你那個區域化過大了它化過太大了你這麼一年不能化太大了"},{"start":5547.283,"end":5548.624,"text":"《中華民國113年度總預算案》"},{"start":5569.5,"end":5569.72,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":5595.936,"end":5596.837,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5620.332,"end":5620.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5634.477,"end":5635.057,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5659.48,"end":5660.521,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5686.923,"end":5687.523,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5734.284,"end":5734.304,"text":"我們繼續開會"},{"start":5737.987,"end":5755.977,"text":"第一開會接下來是國安局主管的那首先我來介紹介紹列席的首長國家安全局局長蔡明彥先生接下來我們就請大家看146案"},{"start":5758.564,"end":5776.79,"text":"那146案 這個臺灣民眾黨 邱董召你的意見了啦 146案好 那個 院長我想這個案子是今天的重點 針對這個案網的事情因為現在目前十大民院之首 我想詐騙是國人深受這個詐騙之苦"},{"start":5778.49,"end":5805.604,"text":"那在這次2024大選之前已經有傳出這個網路上有數千國人遭到監控而且有這個暗網有發現有高價出售情治機關偵控數據疑似這個企圖抹黑影響選舉那調查局表示現在正在這個深入調查當中但是我們當時第一時間來去了解並沒有給一個明確的回覆而且如果這個消息是真的話其實"},{"start":5806.964,"end":5830.031,"text":"選舉期間應該行政中立的相關情治單位現在目前有傳出監聽國內許多政要的這個監聽的這個紀錄齁那這個其實有行政不中立的問題那我們認為國安局應該針對這個案子詳細跟大眾說明齁除了不要影響大選的公平公正之外齁因為台灣的民主得來不易那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":5831.231,"end":5847.619,"text":"現在他目前網路上公告這些資料據我們了解基本上有七八成是符合事實的那當然我們第一時間跟國安局還有這個調查局了解他們是說目前相關的資料在查核中那也請最高檢最高檢這邊也責成這個臺北地檢署來"},{"start":5850.62,"end":5852.421,"text":"邱委員我建議一下好不好你這個凍結10%不要說凍結啦然後你講說"},{"start":5880.461,"end":5906.299,"text":"等國安局第16任總統附同選舉（立委選舉（期間如何讓選舉不受各自影響弄一個組結議好不好那就不要有動結數我想文字大家可以討論好不好形式可以那我們還是希望局長幫我們這個案子說明一下目前現在的狀況我先講結論好不好好不好局長說明以前我先講結論這是要動結數不要的弄改個組結議那請局長說明一下好不好"},{"start":5909.721,"end":5909.801,"text":"通訊監察"},{"start":5924.192,"end":5926.393,"text":"公務預算部分８立法院黨團協商８事由．立法院黨團協商．公務預算部分．立法院黨團協商．"},{"start":5946.202,"end":5972.618,"text":"進入司法程序之後,我們行政單位、官團隊實在不適合針對偵辦的個案來進行太多的一個評論那對於司法機關偵辦的過程跟結果,我們都予以尊重那第三個重點是委員關切到的假訊息散佈的問題那這部分我們有積極的在查處查處的重點包括追溯假訊息散播的來源、散播的管道以及散播的方式,這是第一部分那第二部分也會針對相關的假訊息來進行通報"},{"start":5973.639,"end":5996.772,"text":"所以從今年到現在為止我們已經通報到行政院有快700個假訊息的案件讓行政部門可以及時的來應處那第三個我們會把相關的假訊息散播的這些有問題的帳號會向社群媒體來做檢舉所以現在大概已經有下架包括臉書還有YouTube已經下架有幾千個有問題的帳號所以在查找的部分我們把大概處理的情形跟委員做以上的說明謝謝"},{"start":5999.023,"end":6016.768,"text":"第一 定位成認知作戰假訊息 依法行政是你們的標準進入司法程序 這個部分我們也尊重但是如何要後續來預防或是防治甚至是後續的查處 包含從資訊流 金流 還有整個的"},{"start":6018.828,"end":6039.702,"text":"員頭的追蹤管理這個部分有沒有一些因應措施對 有 針對那個溯源的部分我們都採用比較新的技術把假訊息散播的一個過程跟網路來做相關的查找那特別現在有很多的假訊息散播的帳號它是人工的帳號 一次性的帳號那這部分我們都會做完整的一個收集來提供給相關的單位來做查辦"},{"start":6042.212,"end":6070.178,"text":"院長 我想我們同意改成主決議一個月內向立法院提出報告應該要快點說明因為時間也很短總統選舉快要結束了在這個中間 那個國人有疑慮的部分是不是應該要先說明清楚或者是如果沒有辦法說明清楚的話現在也應該藉由預算協商的時候那個局長也應該說明清楚"},{"start":6070.818,"end":6096.061,"text":"現在這樣子喔我覺得因為那個消息一丟出來就變成說不管是朝野都政治人物然後呢他的電話在哪裡我們去查了然後現在你說假訊息是哪些是假訊息到現在為止你就去丟給高監署然後一推250然後最後就是造成一個"},{"start":6097.001,"end":6114.676,"text":"韓城效應造成一個恐怖的氛圍在那裡這樣很不好啊這個東西你講說這個假訊息你對於假訊息的處理我感覺國安局就是假處理假處理就是有政治目的在假處理感覺是非常不好的在裡面的人你會怎麼想"},{"start":6121.622,"end":6143.606,"text":"你們不能說到現在為止,我剛剛聽你講,到現在為止都沒有答案啊都沒有答案啊只是說我丟給公務員署了,丟給公務員署了,這樣而已這有一定的行政處理程序嘛,一定的嚴謹度嘛不是說他出來,講說這小訊息就結束了我想這個案子第一個我還是很建議,凍結數就不要了"},{"start":6147.025,"end":6153.612,"text":"主決議我們同意主決議但是我們 我想 局長你在針對剛剛那個國民黨團的意見我覺得你再詳細說明一下因為老實講選舉也剩31天而已那你再提一個月書面報告老實講也來不及"},{"start":6168.646,"end":6196.831,"text":"所以我希望你們再針對﹐包含剛剛講的認知作戰﹐高檢署現在的進度﹐還有你們後續要怎麼預防﹐然後假訊息的判讀﹐怎麼樣跟國人來告知﹐我覺得這個部分﹐我覺得你講清楚好不好﹐你在這邊講清楚﹐那你們這個書面報告﹐我這邊具體建議﹐是不是兩個禮拜好不好﹐兩個禮拜﹐這個書面報告坦白講﹐它有實效性好不好﹐那怎麼實效性都是﹐坦白講都是一樣嘛﹐因為它總統公告"},{"start":6199.052,"end":6221.754,"text":"國安局應該請國安局在怪假進行的部分隨時出來澄清不過澄清的方面已經要澄清了當然他們比較嚴謹嘛對 案件在第一時間 最高檢已經出來說明沒有 那就發個新聞稿而已啦 我老實說啦那一個資訊的判讀 你們說你們還要再去做查核那目前就我們的了解 那上面基本上七八成是真的啊"},{"start":6222.873,"end":6242.972,"text":"七八成是真的﹖或許有部分是假﹖現在詐騙最大﹖真假難分﹖他七分真 三分假﹖你為什麼那麼多人被騙﹖就是因為他拿到你部分真實的資料﹖去年也有那十五萬就可以買到這些﹖柯總報紙是不講而已﹖我老實說﹖你也很擔心被監聽吧﹖很多我們自己的資訊也被公告﹖"},{"start":6245.074,"end":6272.289,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分是一個寒蟬效應之外我們先不講選舉嘛那國人最痛恨就是這個詐騙這真真假假最難分辨那現在既然這個案子已經這麼高度社會關注我希望局長趁今天這個時間大家提出意見你再詳細說明一下尤其就是說源頭的管理預防的機制還有假訊息的判讀甚至你甚至每個禮拜甚至每天你都要出來澄清假訊息可能我覺得都有必要有 這個有"},{"start":6272.709,"end":6300.585,"text":"好 趁這個機會再跟國人說明一下我覺得不錯 邱委員講得非常好我覺得現在假訊息的認定 是來認定外面有一些什麼第三方來認定那很多人都知道第三方 有些第三方 都是老科的車役在認定喔沒有車役 我就直譯部隊而已上面認定中心"},{"start":6301.966,"end":6302.206,"text":"國安局認定"},{"start":6323.26,"end":6346.767,"text":"這些團體來認定 這些亂地很多 馬上就問 什麼顏色 什麼顏色 什麼顏色都這樣啊 事實是如此啊 那為什麼不用官方單位來認定 你來認定那可以定期公布嗎 一個禮拜公布一次沒有啦 那我認定很清楚當然他會公布啊 要查證等等啊啊查證你別那麼急喔 這個政府的國家性格比較嚴謹啊好啦 柯總召 趕快做結論這個是民意非常關注的嘛 你如果說"},{"start":6351.869,"end":6381.391,"text":"陳.陳.陳.陳.陳.陳.陳."},{"start":6381.536,"end":6382.978,"text":"我只是事實的糾正而已阿"},{"start":6400.977,"end":6401.477,"text":"主席通信監察"},{"start":6421.583,"end":6440.508,"text":"特別通訊監察一定要送到高等法院來裁核﹐法院同意了之後才可以進行相關的通訊監察﹐所以過程一定都是依法行政來執行﹐這部分請委員可以放心﹐依法行政﹐第二個委員所提到的重點﹐是對於個案﹐暗網在床部的通訊監察資料的個案﹐"},{"start":6440.968,"end":6463.849,"text":"因為在第一時間 最高檢已經在偵辦這個案子 啟動了司法調查的一個程序那就我們國安單位來講 我們不適合在司法機關已經在審查的個案去做公開的評論我們要拿捏那個尊重司法的憤記那對於司法單位調查的一個過程跟結果 我們行政單位都予以尊重有需要配合的 我們會全力來配合 這大概是第二個要跟各位委員報告跟說明的"},{"start":6465.369,"end":6486.734,"text":"假訊息的查查或查處﹐這個部分有一個原則﹐主要的原則是在於﹐那個假訊息必須是惡、假、害﹐它有惡意的﹐是假的﹐而且對於我們的社會有造成危害的﹐依照這樣的原則﹐我們發現了有問題﹐就會通報到行政單位﹐再由行政單位來判斷說這樣的問題﹐怎麼樣在第一時間來做必要的澄清﹐"},{"start":6487.176,"end":6487.376,"text":"主席主席議員"},{"start":6515.643,"end":6534.249,"text":"好 那通過 147 測案 148 通山 我們就通案處理那 149 測案 那 150 通山院長不好意思 148 它已經改成組決議啦所以沒有通山的這個問題這樣150 我們也說一下好不好"},{"start":6541.685,"end":6541.865,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6556.286,"end":6572.176,"text":"我們也說一下好不好 因為我覺得說目前的那個總統座車已經就是說符合那個也不需要再升級了 阿我們怎麼知道說誰擁著 阿我們的總統參選人侯友宜不需要再升級阿對不是 這國家的問題不是誰當 未來誰當總統"},{"start":6576.638,"end":6578.719,"text":"來接下來就喬委會謝謝主席"},{"start":6609.701,"end":6633.231,"text":"在換班的時候我跟大家報告一件事情117案要更正剛剛組結議宣告的時候是照案通過因為扁案委員有文字修正所以重新宣告117案組結議文字修正通過"},{"start":6635.777,"end":6661.44,"text":"有簽名的嗎?來!交委會來!那我們現在進行交委會那我跟大家報告一下齁交委會徐家欽委員長他有昨天就有打電話來因為他因為公務他今天沒有辦法趕到那請這個副委員長歷史那我介紹一下齁我們的副委員長就阮昭雄先生好請下"},{"start":6662.401,"end":6662.421,"text":"154案"},{"start":6684.11,"end":6693.773,"text":"是不是155、156都是凍結嗎那併委員會啊那併委員會好不好那併委員會因為委員會已經凍結了400多萬對報告主席這個部分委員會沒有凍結委員會沒有凍結我們建議改組決議好 那就改組決議哪一個案"},{"start":6713.524,"end":6721.087,"text":"154到156154154 155 156全部改為拒絕役陳允慶委員同意是不是有說明沒有拒絕市委員什麼事情"},{"start":6733.976,"end":6740.505,"text":"有溝通說明沒有拒絕154 156都改為主決議啦這一般行政AOA都改主決議他事實上這個可以併案一個主決議就可以了吧"},{"start":6751.71,"end":6758.732,"text":"都改為主決議154 155 156都改為主決議157也是改為主決議嗎沒有要撤案啦特別會特別會的問題啦特別會 保留要不要撤案沒有要撤案158他們同意撤10萬"},{"start":6781.454,"end":6785.095,"text":"剪列十萬科目字條剪十萬科目字條再來是159建議改組結議159改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":6810.333,"end":6814.836,"text":"160 通3161 動100萬年改組協議 調效的改組協議 沒有意見通過162 改動20萬年動20萬要不要併委會"},{"start":6832.472,"end":6832.612,"text":"163改組結議163改組結議 164動議100萬"},{"start":6849.775,"end":6851.456,"text":"建議改組結議164改組結議165改凍結二十萬年166改組結議167改組結議"},{"start":6877.423,"end":6877.985,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6887.467,"end":6901.409,"text":"那這邊凍結很像那我們說併委員這一半你就併這個嗎?要應戰嗎?是可以啦,但是太生病了再來就是說,他如果說這邊已經凍結440萬那我們再加一個凍結50萬,假設啦他會變成440萬還是490萬?"},{"start":6916.923,"end":6917.063,"text":"好來好來"},{"start":6952.464,"end":6952.644,"text":"167案這張有修對不對"},{"start":6977.52,"end":6983.782,"text":"改為檢列50萬年 沒意見通過公務自行調整再來是168案改組結議 沒意見通過169組結議 有沒有意見 沒意見就照樣通過170組結議 沒有意見 沒意見就照樣通過"},{"start":7003.45,"end":7008.935,"text":"171 文字修正好 OK好 那沒意見就修正通告好好 謝謝 謝謝主委"},{"start":7064.412,"end":7071.56,"text":"跟大家報告一下 黨團要求休息30分鐘 11點半開始開會"},{"start":9603.992,"end":9604.215,"text":"好好好"},{"start":9677.594,"end":9678.536,"text":"院長晚上會到幾點十點嗎你還沒訂嗎好"},{"start":9720.573,"end":9746.329,"text":"各位先進我們現在就繼續開會那繼續開會我先跟大家報告一下我們現在要進行的是行政院主管行政院主管在這裡有兩個部分一個是國家發展委員會一個是公民交易委員會這兩個機關處理完了我們就早上就告一段落"},{"start":9747.748,"end":9760.916,"text":"那這樣這個兩個部位有多少案呢46案所以應該不會太久那下午的時間就看大家尊重各位黨團大家看要幾點開始我們等一下再來商量好不好那現在"},{"start":9773.544,"end":9798.305,"text":"我來介紹一下 列席的這個所長首先介紹 我看主席 主席長 介紹 行政院主席總署 主席長 朱哲平先生國家發展委員會主任委員 國民新先生現在我們就請大家看這個案號 第一案第一案 國發會的總稅處改組決議 沒有意見就通過"},{"start":9804.346,"end":9827.661,"text":"主席 因為我們跟紅委員已經有溝通過他同意把他改成主決議好 那第二案改成主決議沒有見通過第三案也改主決議 沒有見通過第四案我們也跟紅委員溝通過了做了文字上的修正那委員也同意把他改成主決議"},{"start":9828.942,"end":9840.135,"text":"第四案稿子決議 文字修正第五案我們是建議可不可以併委員會的決議第五案併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":9849.537,"end":9850.738,"text":"第六案第七案"},{"start":9864.824,"end":9866.606,"text":"第六案呢?第六案是我們的啊?國發會可以同意嗎?"},{"start":9882.503,"end":9891.849,"text":"第五案保留第六案也是保留第七案 並委員會接辦理如好第八案 並委員會接辦理如好"},{"start":9907.859,"end":9921.712,"text":"第9案這個病毒委員結一半禮沒有意見通過第10案因為通商就不處理通商科目不處理接下來就11案11案11案凍結5%我們病毒委員結一半禮如何沒有意見就通過"},{"start":9929.42,"end":9934.625,"text":"第十二案通商案就不予處理第十三案凍結作為並委員會接辦理"},{"start":9949.2,"end":9976.698,"text":"並委員決議辦理好謝謝第十七案並委員決議辦理如何好好明明一切通過那第十八案簡列一百萬年這個大家意見怎麼樣我們跟那個賴委員有溝通過他是說改成簡列十萬然後我們客戶自行調整客戶自行調整好十八案改為簡列十萬年"},{"start":9980.3,"end":9987.504,"text":"19案通3案就不予處理 20案主結議 有沒有意見22案主結議 22案主結議 23案主結議 24案主結議"},{"start":10001.392,"end":10023.686,"text":"市長有跟委員討論有調整調整三個月我再宣布一下所有的文字如果是一個A兩個A都改為三個A然後專案報告改為書面報告所以有關歐斯蘭的決議我們就文字修正修正通過"},{"start":10025.507,"end":10050.904,"text":"那再來25案主決議 文字修正 是那沒有意見就修正通過26案主決議 遵照辦理好 照案通過27案主決議 遵照辦理好 照案通過 28案主決議這個已經有跟委員討論了這個3個一樣修正3個月改成3個月那個部分好 那就這樣 28案主決議那我們就文字修正 修正通過"},{"start":10052.452,"end":10052.932,"text":"二十九案組結議"},{"start":10072.325,"end":10074.766,"text":"三十案主決議三十二案主決議三十三案主決議"},{"start":10099.793,"end":10100.433,"text":"純照辦理純照辦理純照辦理"},{"start":10121.222,"end":10121.782,"text":"公平交易委員會"},{"start":10164.09,"end":10173.525,"text":"好 我介紹列席的所長 光平教育委員會主任委員李美竹 主委好 謝謝"},{"start":10176.296,"end":10203.514,"text":"來 接下來我們就請大家看 41案改組結議 有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見 那就通過42案有新華社區邱總召這邊有一個組結議喔 修改的沒有好笑的對 就這樣同意那個改組結議好 42案改組結議 沒有意見就通過44案組結議做文書修正 沒有意見就修正通過44案組結議 有沒有意見"},{"start":10206.823,"end":10207.444,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10224.791,"end":10239.057,"text":"我們早上就到這樣經濟部我們就留到下午開始經濟部主管的就下午開始那現在請大家決定一下下午是要12點開始還是12點半還是要1點1點好了1點好了1點好了 早一點弄"},{"start":10252.287,"end":10261.672,"text":"好 要回來啦好 1點好 1點1點10分1點10分1點10分1點15分好安眠到11點齁好 OK"},{"start":10284.19,"end":10288.919,"text":"主席長同意不同意1點15分繼續開會謝謝大家"},{"start":15497.776,"end":15524.561,"text":"好各位先進我們現在就來開始進行下午的協商下午的協商最主要就是現在開始就要針對經濟部主管的部分那我現在來介紹列席的所長首先介紹經濟部部長王美花女士"},{"start":15527.034,"end":15546.646,"text":"還有龍業部主席長我們還是重新介紹一下行政院主席長請大家就看47案院長與其各位先進"},{"start":15556.021,"end":15585.263,"text":"老柯 老柯聽到沒有 老柯我先講我的結論啦齁賴世寶的提案一個都不妥協 我通通保留 去 去 去標決原因 你先不要插話英文吉祥啦這個王美花部長 官威太大他找底下的人來協商 跟我們講什麼話他說 兩個KPI第一個KPI第一個KPI 撤案"},{"start":15587.247,"end":15600.472,"text":"他叫他部下叫立委撤案 第一個KPI 第二個KPI只能寫主決議 一毛錢都不能刪 這樣我是不是寫三三 王部長有沒有講得出話"},{"start":15601.903,"end":15602.563,"text":"我跟委員報告我完全沒有這樣子事"},{"start":15618.873,"end":15640.6,"text":"所以是他們說謊我對著麥克風我完全沒有這樣子是你可以發誓我可以發誓所以他們的不同的署長都講說我們倆拜託你要跟我們考他說拜託啊我們部長給我們的KPI只能屬決議只能叫測案你沒有這樣做的話我回去會被檢討他說被檢討好幾個署長這樣講"},{"start":15645.379,"end":15653.944,"text":"這樣就是用人情攻勢他等於拿一個人肉盾牌把署長當作人肉盾牌所以已經當然他已經發誓了"},{"start":15660.778,"end":15681.244,"text":"外面對你的評價是很假啦人家說科長當部長來做你工業也不是很懂商業也不是很懂官威很大啊哇居然幾千億的預算一毛錢都不能砍欸那是協商什麼所以沒有 我的主張 我的主張我沒有 我的主張我就這樣決定了齁"},{"start":15682.884,"end":15683.985,"text":"所以每一個署長都要抓他屁股 他們說謊"},{"start":15712.243,"end":15735.388,"text":"他們的首長 非常 非常誠懇的去辦公室溝通那怎麼說我不知道 但是 但是 完全一個就是寫主決議 一個就是 一個就是撤案 要寫上什麼啦沒有啦 這 要寫上什麼你去找別人 找別的案子就好了沒有啦 這我不相信 因為兩個差 差異太大了你不要關係太大 你不要關係太大"},{"start":15735.928,"end":15744.115,"text":"啊 官位太大了 你這官位或者你用怎麼講 或者你透過你的人去傳遞你嘴巴沒有講 底下你的幕僚 你的誠信要去講"},{"start":15745.441,"end":15763.029,"text":"你老委員嘛,你不容易受傷我內心很脆弱一個立委黨黨怎麼沒有面子一毛錢都不能刪欸幾千你的預算一毛錢都不能刪你剛才講的他也回答了我們大家要冷靜一點你就先保留我們第二輪再講我全部保留"},{"start":15773.453,"end":15779.358,"text":"我全部保留 我覺得這樣的協商沒有意義啦齁阿你沒有理睬我 我很少來這裏講啦 我的選舉我沒有要去試試這個是要討一個公道 替立委整一點面子我們立委被誇衰小咧 誇衰敗啊我也是立委啊你也叫我誇衰敗 不能刪 都不能刪阿你又講 我不會這樣講啦部長當得這麼大"},{"start":15797.602,"end":15799.303,"text":"賴委員 報告一下啦 因為我們預算就是要繼續進行賴委員的我們尊重"},{"start":15813.955,"end":15816.256,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":15829.46,"end":15830.481,"text":"經濟部主管的部分"},{"start":15855.021,"end":15869.031,"text":"這個51案齁51案這個51案是不是凍結10%是不是可以並委員會決議辦理因為委員會凍結蠻多的喔等一下柯團這個有沒有統算阿柯團有委員辦法這個地方那個委員會多少報告主席齁這個項目的話那個民眾黨黨團已經蓋章了改組決議"},{"start":15882.732,"end":15883.813,"text":"科技專案是有部分違範費不是全部"},{"start":15912.896,"end":15914.217,"text":"科專有的是委辦"},{"start":15943.002,"end":15944.104,"text":"五十九案並沒有接辦理,沒有見通過"},{"start":15963.399,"end":15985.306,"text":"那60案這個是凍結20% 這個是不是併委員接辦理好不好 60案併委員接辦理沒有先通過那61案也併委員接辦理 可以嗎沒有先通過那6263就通3 我們就暫不處理64 65 64凍結10%有沒有意見"},{"start":15992.407,"end":16012.321,"text":"六四的部分因為是本部職安聯防跟工防演練的重要預算所以建議改組決議改組決議好六四改組決議明天通過六十五六十五的部分的話早上的部分有個保留那個就賴委員的那我們就暫保暫保保留了暫保"},{"start":16013.649,"end":16032.723,"text":"好那66凍結200萬年有沒有意見改組決議好了建議修改文字改組決議好那改組決議文字修改沒有意見通過再來是67案凍結10%改組決議改組決議啊那個委員會委員會有凍嗎沒有凍"},{"start":16042.438,"end":16054.806,"text":"委員會沒有動這一段數字很少2925萬元那個是資訊系統所以那個經費也非常少改組決議好了好 那就改組決議 沒見通過68案 凍結100萬元是不是也改組決議沒有沒有 68案我說明一下68案我們民眾黨團這邊提這個是雜糧發展基金會現在的問題那這個地方我們才提凍100萬不行嗎"},{"start":16072.958,"end":16079.743,"text":"可以啦 但是不是不可以好 那就照案嘛好 那就一百萬是吧好 那免費券通過喔好 69案改組結議 免費券通過好70案 凍結10%對 一樣的嘛 改組結議好不好好"},{"start":16091.971,"end":16091.991,"text":"改組結議"},{"start":16114.486,"end":16129.767,"text":"七十四案就改組結議,沒有意見通過七十五案也改組結議七十六案也改組結議,沒有意見通過七十七改組結議,沒有意見通過"},{"start":16130.948,"end":16147.749,"text":"七十八改組結議沒有先通過七十九改組結議沒有先通過八十那個邱委員你改組結議這個同一項目的國安事業管理只有三千多萬而已沒關係這個地方凍結不行嗎改組結議好了"},{"start":16148.59,"end":16148.93,"text":"剛才已經有說那個動"},{"start":16168.582,"end":16170.523,"text":"68案處理68案就是剛才就是有凍結凍結一百萬年嘛就是68案合併凍結一百萬這樣對不對那就這樣"},{"start":16197.821,"end":16204.883,"text":"併68案好來81案凍結10萬元10萬元10萬元而已也不行喔這個凍結10萬元而且386年"},{"start":16219.804,"end":16220.244,"text":"主席有簽改組決議"},{"start":16232.101,"end":16259.059,"text":"主結議好主結議沒有意見通過82案公立小委員的就凍結凍結15%我們病毒委員會結議辦理好沒有意見就病毒委員會結議辦理那83案改凍結100萬年沒有意見通過84通385通3我們就到時候病案處理86改主結議"},{"start":16262.821,"end":16279.631,"text":"85是那個要增資台電的1100億的部分 是不是排除在通商裡面等一下85我們是不是已經改組決議了沒有 沒改組決議啦85改組決議好了那它不是通商啦"},{"start":16280.552,"end":16281.272,"text":"改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議"},{"start":16309.878,"end":16321.165,"text":"好 照案通過 90 主決議好 照案通過 91 的主決議好 照案通過 92 主決議92 的主決議做文字修正 那沒問題就修正通過好 那 93 主決議好 照案通過"},{"start":16337.455,"end":16337.896,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16342.915,"end":16372.137,"text":"九十四是不是有文字修正是 那個委員已經簽了九十四文字修正通過九十四文字修正九十四的文字的主決議文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過九十五的主決議就是有做文字修正文字修正那我們九十五的主決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過九十六主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":16374.409,"end":16386.895,"text":"97 主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過98 主決議有做文書修正 沒意見就修正通過好99 主決議 有沒有意見遵照辦理好 召喚通過9100 主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過"},{"start":16395.705,"end":16396.466,"text":"我們建議修正文字"},{"start":16416.477,"end":16437.266,"text":"在那個第三行有部分修正然後最後面是改成評估把核能納入我國能源選項的可行性105組決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過106組決議106我們最後也做一點文字修正這個不是只有用電大戶所以是請能源署針對太陽光電結合建物"},{"start":16437.706,"end":16462.086,"text":"提出相關安全規範好106主席做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過107主席遵照辦理好召喚通過108主席遵照辦理好召喚通過109主席遵照辦理好召喚通過10110主席遵照辦理好沒有意見召喚通過111主席要調整一下文字要修正"},{"start":16464.778,"end":16486.943,"text":"文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、2主席也是文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、1、3好沒有意見就照案通過1、1、4文字修正好1、1、4主席做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、1、5"},{"start":16490.31,"end":16518.104,"text":"也是文字修正好15主席願意做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過16主席願意好 召喚通過17 遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過18遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過19遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過120遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過121遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過122做部分文字修正"},{"start":16519.349,"end":16545.388,"text":"做文字修正好沒有意見就修正通過好那123文字修正好沒有意見就修正文字修正通過124遵照辦理好沒有意見就召喚通過好125組結議文字有修正已經簽名好125組結議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過126文字修正嘿好"},{"start":16546.601,"end":16554.227,"text":"沒有意見就文書修正通過127組協議沒有意見就召喚通過128組協議那沒有意見就召喚通過127通過召喚通過就沒有保留了"},{"start":16566.731,"end":16567.452,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16593.211,"end":16599.093,"text":"副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員"},{"start":16620.397,"end":16629.259,"text":"132 也是保留﹖賴委員的﹖暫時保留133 併爐的決議辦理沒有意見通過134 改組決議沒有意見通過135 併爐的決議辦理沒有意見通過136 改組決議沒有意見通過137 測案138 沒有意見就"},{"start":16645.316,"end":16674.377,"text":"142 凍結10%該組決議"},{"start":16676.324,"end":16676.707,"text":"來組協議明天先通過"},{"start":16678.459,"end":16685.822,"text":"好143凍結10%改組結議沒人先改組結議沒人先通過好144改組結議沒人先通過好145通商就暫不處理146檢列160不處理賴司法委員的我們就保留暫時保留147凍結10%改組結議改組結議好沒人先通過好我忘記"},{"start":16710.259,"end":16728.953,"text":"148閉路人節辦理沒有意見通過149 150 151全部是通商項目我們就暫不處理152組結議做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過153組結議有沒有意見就照辦理那就照案通過154改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":16737.453,"end":16739.055,"text":"155 156 157 都是通商 我們就暫不處理 158 凍結10%159 也是改組決議 免費簽通過"},{"start":16760.68,"end":16760.7,"text":"161案"},{"start":16789.565,"end":16815.742,"text":"164凍結10%"},{"start":16816.122,"end":16816.582,"text":"165 主決議166 主決議167 主決議168 凍結10%"},{"start":16842.765,"end":16858.073,"text":"委員長我們這部分已經把資料送到委員辦公室送了以後怎麼樣今天改組結議組結議啦改好了嗎還沒有因為委員只要我們送到辦公室這樣子這樣就改組結議好這樣就改組結議好民運縣組結議通過"},{"start":16866.584,"end":16873.286,"text":"那這個169凍結10%也改組結1好了沒有意見就通過170凍結10%也改組結1沒有意見通過好不好那171凍結1就照案通過172改組結1沒有意見通過173凍結1000萬元陳總召在這裡來"},{"start":16895.97,"end":16897.251,"text":"174 175 都是通商項目 176 凍結四分之一"},{"start":16924.123,"end":16935.496,"text":"主席報告,因為這個是依照人種的標準去編列我們河川分贖章的特指費,所以我們建議這個案子能不能測案"},{"start":16938.836,"end":16961.051,"text":"176這是特別會啦特別會好 策案好 謝謝來 謝謝策案177改凍結百分之一沒有見通過跟主席報告 這個能不能並委員會決議不是已經都講好也簽名邱總召在這裡 來對啦"},{"start":16963.084,"end":16967.486,"text":"這個就是照本來的就好了177 178這個都已經寫好了也簽名了都簽名了177凍結1%沒有意見通過178凍結1%沒有意見通過179改組結議沒有意見通過好那180180怎麼樣"},{"start":16989.577,"end":16991.859,"text":"181改主決議182改主決議183改主決議"},{"start":17017.13,"end":17017.93,"text":"186、187都是通商項目"},{"start":17038.131,"end":17038.871,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":17056.86,"end":17066.327,"text":"改為主決議 免預先通過191 併通3 項目處理192 改主決議 免預先通過193 改主決議 免預先通過194 凍結500萬年好 這個跟陳委員協調過了就是改為這個併主決議就是改為主決議好 主決議那免預先通過195這個賴市保委員的我們就暫時保留齁好"},{"start":17086.323,"end":17092.986,"text":"196 凍結10%這個建議改為主決議辦理好改為主決議沒有意見通過197、198、199都是通商項目並通商案辦在一起處理2000主決議這個遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":17108.444,"end":17115.485,"text":"201 主決議 遵照辦理202 主決議 遵照辦理203 主決議 遵照辦理204 主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過205 主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過206 屬於通商207"},{"start":17134.895,"end":17138.597,"text":"主席報告因為這個案子是委員希望我們找超商業者解決物流車停車問題我們8月有開過會那因為這筆錢是做公司登記的那個業務沒有辦法停頓是不是委員這邊不要凍結我們預算"},{"start":17160.851,"end":17181.27,"text":"好 邱董昭麻煩重新考慮2028我們的這個案就是說涉及的是說這個運送貨物停車的問題不是只有司機跟物流車要分擔就是說讓這些業者本身也應該要共同承擔"},{"start":17182.199,"end":17195.897,"text":"那這個問題就是說這一些不管是說超商啦超市量販業者等等之類的那你在日本的話基本上你如果要設立一個超商的話你是要去有一個自己的停貨車的停車位嗎"},{"start":17197.419,"end":17218.871,"text":"因為你可以想像說你一旦超商設下去之後每天各種不同的溫層的送冷凍食品的、送報紙的、送熱飲的這些熱食的東西的那每天至少會5到7次嘛那你如果說你連一個貨車停車格都沒有的情況之下那大部分都是在違規停車的"},{"start":17220.532,"end":17222.132,"text":"《中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":17239.877,"end":17265.229,"text":"這個造勢責任的歸屬,所以這是非常不公平的啦所以我們希望說應該這一個新設的零售業要把這個卸貨交通計畫納入到商業登記室的審查條件然後去研議說未來就這個部分的話他能夠有一些這個連帶責任或等等等等之類的然後提及一個書面報告,所以我們"},{"start":17266.209,"end":17282.748,"text":"所以希望說應該去做這個部分那其實之前也有跟經濟部商業司討論過那這種案件在這個你現在也升格為屬那在這種案件在台灣各個角落裡面是層出不窮"},{"start":17284.069,"end":17297.683,"text":"所以應該是不能夠讓這些超商全台灣光是四大超商就有一萬家不能夠讓這一些超商然後把這個經濟的外部性由社會來承擔這是非常不公平的"},{"start":17298.922,"end":17310.389,"text":"那不是委員那是不是因為這筆預算是做公司登記委員是不是不要凍結那麼多就是這樣啦就是你們那個加強研議辦理啦然後改組決議啦好不好還是說這個併委員會的這個委員會沒有凍結委員會沒有凍結喔對決議啦選字因為那個錢齁是給那個六都還有中辦來辦公司登記啦那個錢是比較"},{"start":17324.156,"end":17324.336,"text":"公務委員．．．"},{"start":17347.521,"end":17370.31,"text":"應該不是只有經濟部能夠解決這個問題因為這其實就是說看現象就是說一般在他設立這個操商的時候你每天一定有五到七天會送回車嘛那在這個狀況之下你設立了這個車子之後如果假設你連一個貨車停車格都沒有的時候你每天就是設立一個店然後就創造了五到七次的違規停車"},{"start":17372.01,"end":17397.592,"text":"但是因為商業登記或公司登記其實都是書面審查那委員要的是要實質說他有停車格才可以那這個恐怕不是由商業登記法這邊來處理但是部長我的意思就是說因為像在日本他要設立這個商店的時候他就自己要有一個停車位嘛那你可以在未來新設的零售業要把"},{"start":17397.972,"end":17419.453,"text":"他的卸貨交通計劃納入到商業登記室的審查條件你可以自己買一個停車格但是你要告訴大家你的車跟規劃就是說要停在哪嘛像日本有時候的狀況是說那在這附近比如說有幾十公尺外有一個停車場那他的車就停在那邊他再用小貨車把他送過來"},{"start":17422.079,"end":17444.277,"text":"而不是說像我們現在的這個狀況所以其實在臺灣各個角落裡面到處都在發生這種事情剛才署長有提到8月份有找他們來開過一次會那這個部分我們會再找包括交通部等等一起再來討論這個怎麼樣去克服這個問題那我們就改用組結議處理啦好 明天見就通過好 209案組結議有沒有見沒有見就照案通過"},{"start":17450.342,"end":17452.763,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":17473.909,"end":17498.131,"text":"我們就召喚通過在215的總稅出改組決議沒有見通過216的這一部分像主席跟委員報告有跟委員辦公室主任報告過那是不是能夠改成組決議你們這邊能不能就是你們委員會有沒有這一個項目有凍結嗎"},{"start":17499.642,"end":17499.862,"text":"委員提供資料"},{"start":17529.353,"end":17529.893,"text":"改組決議217改組決議218組決議遵照辦理"},{"start":17556.857,"end":17556.977,"text":"憲議並委員會決議辦理"},{"start":17586.035,"end":17586.256,"text":"221主決議221主決議221通過"},{"start":17607.998,"end":17618.161,"text":"通山 通山項目併案處理226改組決議沒有意見通過227通山也是併通山項目一起處理28 29 230 231 232 233 234 235 236都是併通山項目一起再處理237組決議"},{"start":17634.54,"end":17659.567,"text":"沒意見 照案通過238主決議順道辦理沒意見 照案通過239順道辦理沒意見 照案通過240主決議240有文字修正委員同意沒有意見就修正通過241主決議有修正文字委員同意沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":17662.312,"end":17664.654,"text":"接下來就農業部農業部再來就財政"},{"start":17713.619,"end":17714.92,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17738.087,"end":17749.723,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17762.873,"end":17763.293,"text":"請大家看242案"},{"start":17791.67,"end":17795.432,"text":"22改組決議沒有見通過23改組決議沒有見通過244改組決議沒有見通過245併通3處理246改組決議沒有見通過我們等一下好了"},{"start":17820.578,"end":17821.059,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17860.385,"end":17869.95,"text":"來啊啦,規定這次要處理啊不來了?"},{"start":17889.326,"end":17890.047,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17919.898,"end":17920.359,"text":"現在是二十四開始"},{"start":17946.704,"end":17959.914,"text":"25通3就併案處理246就改組結議,沒有意見通過247通3就併案處理,併通3處理28改組結議,沒有意見通過249通3就併案處理250改組結議,沒有意見通過"},{"start":17976.183,"end":17995.276,"text":"251改組決議免預先通過252我們是不是可以見情委免以凍結然後改組決議文字修正這特別費的部分保留保留你要增加什麼什麼增加252保留"},{"start":18001.116,"end":18023.815,"text":"二五三二五三是不是也可以改組決議然後做做文字的修正因為最主要農業管理是我們很多的農營移蓄的相關的一般的營運還有一些訓練的部分好 院長不是喔 院長這個反對因為這個涉及到是說你說這一個雞蛋有黑市亂象的問題"},{"start":18025.616,"end":18045.075,"text":"結果呢 這個有三種管道 第一個是說 行政院籌組法務部主責的物價聯合稽查小組 扣過刑法251條結果 到11月底前 因為雞蛋這個案件而遭罰的案件是零件 沒辦法"},{"start":18046.577,"end":18070.046,"text":"第二個是用農業部依據這個農產品市場交易法第6條而受第35條遭開罰的案件有幾件還是零件第三個是用公平會的防制人為操縱物價專案小組然後設有這個民眾來檢舉等等之類的結果民眾檢舉的案件是188件成功開罰的案件也是零件"},{"start":18070.986,"end":18087.72,"text":"所以顯示你這個根本完全都沒有任何的成效那這個是嚴重失職的啦你今天你覺得雞蛋的價格然後有可能有黑市的亂象等等之類的那你有這些管道"},{"start":18088.42,"end":18110.325,"text":"結果到最後你不要說這個有比較少的成效你的成效幾乎是零那你成效幾乎是零的情況之下你當然要去徹底的檢討嘛因為老百姓為了雞蛋這個事情苦不堪言了更何況你後來還搞出這些有的沒的去巴西買雞蛋等等這樣的狀況"},{"start":18113.366,"end":18138.231,"text":"人民交給你的是稅金這個是人民的血汗錢是要教你真的可以去努力的去做事情那連這樣的事情都嚴重的失職有三個管道那洪洪輝輝說有三個管道結果搞不好連一個連半間都沒有這是非常不應該的啊所以就這個部分的話我們會堅持這樣的一個案也希望說農業部要徹底的去檢討保留啊來"},{"start":18144.079,"end":18144.339,"text":"254委員已經同意改為主決議255"},{"start":18172.488,"end":18174.97,"text":"這一次雞蛋到底總共花了多少錢"},{"start":18196.056,"end":18219.839,"text":"現在我們因為整個的一個基幹有一部分還在處理當中那初步如果說全部的一些預算如果說連包括中華續產會本身自己處理的部分大概將近到快十億但是現在目前為止都還沒有任何的一筆經費向我們農業部來請求我們的補助哇 真厲害啊"},{"start":18221.072,"end":18235.845,"text":"沒有跟農委會申請,那誰出的錢不是,因為他本身我們在相關的那個續產會在處理的時候他有跟那個農業金庫做貸款,做融資貸款的部分那他用融資貸款的部分先去做處理"},{"start":18237.483,"end":18238.323,"text":"未來我們會根據相關的規定 如果說他"},{"start":18252.791,"end":18252.931,"text":"政府採購法規範補貼"},{"start":18275.179,"end":18295.401,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18296.867,"end":18298.208,"text":"公務預算部分．．．"},{"start":18320.614,"end":18323.754,"text":"應該佔大概十幾%到20%左右大概是這個數字大概十幾%到20%左右那可能還要再精準的話是不是可以廢後再給委員"},{"start":18343.686,"end":18346.548,"text":"那個代理部長 是這個事情啊 浪費了這麼多公帑還影響2300萬的食糧問題要不要請省紀部去查賬 必要時候追究財務責任不過我跟委員報告齁 省紀部已經在清查我們的整個的一個相關的雞蛋的一些"},{"start":18366.86,"end":18393.964,"text":"一些相關的費用的一個支出你同不同意必要的時候追究財務責任我想以我們農業部本身在我當代理部長之後我在第二個禮拜就有請我們部裡面的專案的包括會計處去做相關的的一些查證那到目前為止我們並沒有發現任何不法的行為只是在數據的加總是有一些我沒有不法你一太大一太大的公開招標就沒有公開招標阿沒有"},{"start":18394.104,"end":18394.204,"text":"主席"},{"start":18408.973,"end":18429.02,"text":"中央市長會自己有錢是嗎 有沒有錢他自己有資金 我剛才說的不要贊成喔 這些液態彈的破 一塊錢都不能補助喔他如果補助我們不能超過二分之一他如果說沒有依政府採購法的話 我們不能超過二分之一另外那超私啊 超私資本有多少"},{"start":18430.884,"end":18445.608,"text":"本身的資本50萬 但是超支上次也講了不是 它本身的存摺 當時我們已經公開了它的存摺 它存摺裡面就有6千多萬然後它第一筆的當款也是它自己付的有將近10千多萬存摺跟你資本額都兩碼事啊"},{"start":18449.969,"end":18451.209,"text":"黃宏慶的登記交公司50萬可以借錢嗎"},{"start":18475.672,"end":18487.805,"text":"董事長你是王永慶啊 或者是王永慶啊你不要用王永慶啊 你不要 對不對借錢你不要跟我變我不是跟你變啊 我是"},{"start":18489.122,"end":18507.938,"text":"希望你講短一點就好啦因為這個題目講很久了啦一個早上都沒有講話咧阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席"},{"start":18518.465,"end":18526.793,"text":"主席總理在這裡就說你看這個我們農業部他就把所有有這個協商有開章全部印在一起"},{"start":18541.772,"end":18543.974,"text":"二五五案修正文字改組決議這案不能接受就保留"},{"start":18571.309,"end":18571.589,"text":"二五五案"},{"start":18590.672,"end":18607.822,"text":"其實我們這邊只是一個凍結而已齁那你們把這個進口雞蛋的這個廢棄方式的這個說清楚我跟委員說明齁就是我們整個報廢的大概5000多萬顆本身我們已經有招標了那招標也是用政府採購的方式去做招標"},{"start":18608.742,"end":18638.162,"text":"招標的部分總共有66家本身有資格去把這些報廢的雞蛋做成堆肥那目前為止我們大概12月17號本身會再開標這個部分你們現在都沒有標成功阿對全部都留標了所以你們這一案就是很簡單嘛你們就是如果能真的做得好你們招標能夠成功然後你們怎麼招標因為這個是我們拿那麼多工廠去買的啦那你這個案子的話你不能接受凍結的話那我們就保留啦"},{"start":18638.642,"end":18639.243,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18655.885,"end":18668.155,"text":"你這個基本上這個農地跟農地資源盤查作業等等這些土對於這個不管是說掌握農地的這個狀況是非常重要的但是因為你的狀況這個跟"},{"start":18671.717,"end":18693.163,"text":"因為你這個彙整的時間差然後跟各部會建制溝通等等導致說盤查結果不一定跟當年度的實際成果一致所以這個本來就是應該要去強化的所以我們是希望說你針對這個農地及農地資源盤查作業去精進然後這個才凍結5%"},{"start":18696.985,"end":18705.436,"text":"有一個報告之後經濟委員會有同意時的動之我們是不是可以就是說我們該組協議然後我們提一個經濟的報告"},{"start":18709.46,"end":18717.707,"text":"我跟委員報告我們特別在農航所買了兩架飛機那現在整個農地的盤查因為裡面的作物箱非常多所以我們會用我們的飛機去做航拍以外然後也會結合內政部的這些固定的變異點然後去做相關的一個勾機跟稽查"},{"start":18736.042,"end":18756.797,"text":"同樣我們有18個資料庫就是人民的資料庫我們也會做互相的交互比對所以事實上我們現在已經針對農業部相關的資料做數位化那未來我想我們會有一個非常精進的那我們希望說提一個專案報告提一個書面報告向委員會說明好啦好啦"},{"start":18759.403,"end":18759.904,"text":"水保計畫不公開"},{"start":18769.75,"end":18791.596,"text":"現在很多案子你們都不公開 到底哪邊變了怎麼樣 你們也沒辦法比對然後都黑箱啊 所以我在這裡四年叫你們公開 到現在都不公開我跟委員說明一下齁 整個水保計畫裡面的這些還在調查的部分齁 我們依法是沒有辦法說還在調查沒有被確認的時候 就把相關的資訊公開 我們一定要"},{"start":18792.276,"end":18792.736,"text":"257就保留嗎"},{"start":18818.717,"end":18822.981,"text":"那請看258改組決議沒有意見通過259改組決議沒有意見通過260通3261並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過262改組決議沒有意見通過263並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":18834.512,"end":18834.912,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":18863.683,"end":18865.264,"text":"剪列180萬剪列40萬剪列40萬科目自行調整"},{"start":18894.927,"end":18920.388,"text":"捲列40萬年 客戶執行調整沒有建築通過那280那280是不是也可以能夠改成組結一 做文字修正那最主要是農業發展裡面 最主要是補充基金還有一些冷鏈 現在正在執行的冷鏈跟一些動保的收容的部分 那建築沒有建築 改組結一沒有建築通過 就這樣 好來"},{"start":18922.049,"end":18949.757,"text":"那281撤案282改組結議沒有見通過283改組結議沒有見通過284改組結議沒有見通過院長不好意思280啦280這個也是雞蛋的那我們知道說你如果說要去這個處理像現在的雞蛋的這個短缺的問題的話那勢必就是說你的生產力啦要能夠提升嘛"},{"start":18950.777,"end":18970.128,"text":"那這個我國每日每雞蛋﹐這個雞蛋蛋率為0.52﹐遠低於德國的等等﹐日本、以色列等等﹐這個就不再贅述了﹐所以就這部分的話﹐當然就是需要去對這個﹐蛋機的產業的轉型﹐那有很重要的這個影響"},{"start":18974.151,"end":18993.23,"text":"農業部也編列了10.5億作爲升級秦社的改建那你想說每年 預估每年可輔導66家但是光第一年就有212家申請所以基本上第一個當然就是說爲什麼會出現這樣的一個雞蛋短缺的這個問題顯見"},{"start":18995.572,"end":19009.023,"text":"政府並沒有去對這個正式這個產業轉型的這個需求那你變成是說你農業發展基金本來就是應該去做這個部分但是反而利用這個農業發展基金去採購他國的這個農產品那這個是這個本末導致也跟農發基金"},{"start":19018.01,"end":19042.135,"text":"他所設立的目的完全是不一樣來支持本土的這個 農民的這個角度是完全背道而馳的那我一開始的時候我也是注意到說為什麼農會發展基金會去用來做這個所謂的外國雞蛋的採購這個部分跟他本來設立的基金的目的完全顛倒所以才注意到這個雞蛋採購的這個部分所以我們是希望"},{"start":19043.26,"end":19058.642,"text":"要求這個農業部對這個農業發展基金設立的核心精神也就是說支持本土的這個農民這個角度然後呢要求就是說你應該要去"},{"start":19060.504,"end":19088.056,"text":"回到這個農業發展基金設立的目的﹖然後真的去用這一筆錢﹖去應用這個資金﹖這個資源﹖然後另外一個當然就是說﹖最重要的﹖你應該要去正視﹖而且要去更努力的去做這個產業的轉型﹖跟升級的這個部分﹖所以希望能夠減劣5%﹖然後回到這個基金設置的核心精神"},{"start":19088.736,"end":19088.756,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":19110.981,"end":19111.261,"text":"公務委員．答案"},{"start":19132.985,"end":19140.316,"text":"到達執行的部分然後是不是也可以請委員同意我們用主決議的方式我們會去加強相關的這些作為的一個檢視"},{"start":19142.841,"end":19146.725,"text":"保留285改組結議沒有見通過286改組結議沒有見通過287測案288改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":19163.402,"end":19172.937,"text":"二八九二八九的部分因為農民福利的相關的經費是法律義務支出的部分是不是可以建議梅雨凍結好那"},{"start":19176.112,"end":19201.833,"text":"其實是才動一萬兩千塊啦那主要就是說這個所謂的暫行條例那已經說暫行但是已經27年沒有去修正啦所以就這部分的話你是不是要去修法或者是說盤點整個相關的制度後續的發展那如果你要改組決議的話我也沒有意見只是說你應該是要去正視這個問題"},{"start":19204.876,"end":19221.233,"text":"289改組結議沒有意見通過290組結議有沒有意見沒有意見 遵照辦理好 照案通過291遵照辦理好 照案通過292建請修正相關的文字來 文章修正通過"},{"start":19224.94,"end":19231.163,"text":"293 遵照辦理 294 文字修正295 組結一 遵照辦理296 文字修正297 文字修正 298 組結一 文字修正"},{"start":19251.696,"end":19266.147,"text":"二九九組結議建起我們相關的文字修正好啊那沒有意見修正通告三零零遵照辦理等一下二九九來沒關係二九九修正寫一封就啊寫一封委員的"},{"start":19273.76,"end":19275.522,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19286.863,"end":19311.925,"text":"我要把它裁測 裁判處長會 你們贊成喔不是不是 我們做文字修正就是說文字修正啦我跟文說明喔 續產會本身齁 我們內部檢討我們真的是要去加強它的一個管理效能 跟提升它的效率所以我們在文字修正裡面就會說 我們會去加強 農業部會加強輔導然後提升它的行政效率 以利我們協助強化續產業的一個發展"},{"start":19314.491,"end":19334.118,"text":"市長會是民國89已經成立的 它是依畜牧法成立的部分那我幾年成立的89保留啊好 299保留齁好 來300有沒有意見 遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":19336.681,"end":19341.684,"text":"301 遵照辦理302 見請修正文字303 遵照辦理304 見請修正文字305 見請修正文字304的部分"},{"start":19365.175,"end":19390.927,"text":"這邊我們修正的部分是有關於就是國人才發現原來我國續產會相關談價條約工作並非農業部畜牧師負責那事實上我們農業部的畜牧師就是負責整個畜生產業所以我們把這個字把它劃掉續產會預算是有送來沒有所謂這個當然不受立法院監督"},{"start":19392.347,"end":19394.069,"text":"304 保留305 組結議建議文字修正明日建議修正通過306 遵照辦理"},{"start":19412.313,"end":19417.694,"text":"307 遵照辦理 308 遵照辦理 309 遵照辦理 310 遵照辦理 312 遵照辦理 313 遵照辦理 314 修正文字"},{"start":19448.56,"end":19469.685,"text":"那我們的修正的部分第一個部分就是我們所屬編列的經費他有物質這邊我們修正然後後面寫說我們過去曾讀後特定媒體衍生爭議那這個部分事實上我們所有的這些媒體我們都是以相關的的招標的方式去做處理的方式"},{"start":19470.964,"end":19476.386,"text":"我先不跟你說了 等一下旁邊那個主席長 審計部還有多少錢沒有讓你轉銷4500萬對不對 目前是3600萬你什麼團員黨還有議法 爭議大勒 我跟你講喔到時候他跟陳其中主委球場 怎麼沒有爭議 爭議可大勒"},{"start":19496.209,"end":19501.975,"text":"院長 有那個政府機關花了錢 審計部不讓他轉銷這個農業部 成績很高他說這個沒有爭議 爭議可大"},{"start":19507.006,"end":19507.806,"text":"代理部長你做公務員多久?"},{"start":19537.657,"end":19560.628,"text":"應該34年了我比你長啊你要找那個委員太不容易要找那些委員要偏綠的或者你能掌控的這太容易了你那一環當然一環啊還有另外喔 審計部在看我們的時候是因為科目的關係而不是說我們讀後特定的媒體的關係代理部長問一下"},{"start":19562.657,"end":19587.669,"text":"那個主席長坐在旁邊了我現在講話對他沒有禮貌你們那個以前的主席主任都不太想幹你知不知道都想調離開你知不知道欸!會議處長你不要講私底下再講很多人啦 前一陣 前幾陣都不是都很短對不對 主席長都坐多久"},{"start":19591.036,"end":19614.233,"text":"你不要跟人家閒聊啦 要怎麼跟人家閒聊阿都落台了 要不然又有人開槍 你說到他的屁屁臭文字修正 玻璃 好不好陳吉仲文出逼 已經落台了 要不然又說了 這樣就好了好 他已經下台就算了沒有沒有 這個要保留"},{"start":19619.861,"end":19623.623,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":19638.188,"end":19638.869,"text":"好 那就召喚通過"},{"start":19654.411,"end":19672.728,"text":"3、2、4 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、5 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、6 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、7 測案3、2、8 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、9 組結一有沒有意見沒有意見就照案通過"},{"start":19675.77,"end":19677.112,"text":"331剛剛那個代部長我有請問譬如說現在"},{"start":19688.095,"end":19688.736,"text":"水保局說明一下"},{"start":19714.767,"end":19720.965,"text":"目前水保開發計畫依技術規範會來做相關的一個審查它對挖防邊坡都有一些限制"},{"start":19721.328,"end":19721.648,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":19747.995,"end":19748.798,"text":"國土保安用地被破壞"},{"start":19754.907,"end":19783.605,"text":"我跟委員說明就是有關於這個波地的部分因為波度的改變那其實我們已經配合了國土規劃的農一農二農三特別是農三的部分那有一部分的縣市政府把把那個國保區把它劃成農三然後有一部分把農三劃出去所以我們也非常關注這件事情那上個月我們也開會就是怎麼樣針對波地的這些管理特別是超限利用的部分我們一定會去加強相關的一個督察"},{"start":19784.325,"end":19808.685,"text":"這個部分麻煩你們要審慎的去檢討怎麼樣包括水保計畫要公開還有剛剛提到的不然我們真的是只好去告你們獨子了不然真的沒辦法了謝偉銘提醒我一下我們有簽這個案代部長可不可以就是找個時間來討論一下看你們怎麼去"},{"start":19810.433,"end":19811.574,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":19828.234,"end":19836.215,"text":"歐巴靈 歐巴靈 那個是不是 要求選制總召在這裡嗎我們那個整個農業發展基金 你看它的情色 那個產業要升級轉型這要給他們支持啦 你給他們建立之後 頂多他們派做事情啦 應該是改為主決議 然後要求他們去遵照整個我們農業發展基金的一個精神 你說叫他們更加精進對於那個情色的改善 叫他們更加 應該把這個"},{"start":19855.759,"end":19855.859,"text":"主席"},{"start":19876.494,"end":19898.868,"text":"這補定的回答是說212家申請 那還有什麼許可等等之類的那到最後212家到最後你可輔導才66家 不到三分之一阿其實需要台灣的這個彈籠 需要去輔導或是說想要去渴望要去轉型的人從這個數字看起來就知道說這個是遠多於你要輔導66家嘛"},{"start":19900.569,"end":19929.425,"text":"所以我不認為說我沒有覺得說你這個數字這樣子的狀況那有展現出來你的態度啦那今天為什麼會面對我說實在你如果比較起來的話這是會很漏氣的德國可以德國基本上他是一個工業發達的國家嘛那這個台灣從日據時代到現在我們的農業發展我們養雞的技術等等之類的那結果"},{"start":19930.365,"end":19951.42,"text":"搞到最後德國是0.88日本是0.84那我們的這個美雞雞蛋的蛋率才0.52這是不應該的啊那你就是因為你的農業發展基金應該是要用在支持本土的農民做這個產業升級嘛"},{"start":19952.961,"end":19965.217,"text":"那你現在變成是說用這樣的方式然後再去購買國外的雞蛋變成是又本末倒置過來然後讓外國的雞蛋進來跟本土的蛋來競爭那這個是非常不對的啦"},{"start":19971.425,"end":19990.366,"text":"我拜託沒有資料就不理我,我本來是要跟你說,我們連總資,連我們自己就沒有,我們就要靜靜靜靜比較針對的是說,它的產業升級的不能夠及期,那你那個方向是要做成主決意,讓他們來做一個精進,朝你要求那個方向"},{"start":19992.278,"end":20005.208,"text":"說目的是一樣的我的目的是說希望我透過我這個案然後讓他能夠真的正式面對這個問題給他有壓力讓他可以去面對這個問題"},{"start":20013.926,"end":20029.294,"text":"現在是針對333啦 檢列八十萬年那委員已經同意檢列為十萬元科目執行調整一聽就知道 沒得說就保留不然他講不出來好來 那個333就改為"},{"start":20030.465,"end":20043.625,"text":"委員同意簡列10萬然後科目自行調整好 簡列10萬就10萬年啦改為10萬年科目自行調整齁來 通過334通商 通案處理那335凍結"},{"start":20047.089,"end":20051.831,"text":"委員已經同意改組結議組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":20075.657,"end":20103.114,"text":"這條齁"},{"start":20103.234,"end":20108.057,"text":"這條我寫351 罰金收入喔 這個不開玩笑啦這個我們遠洋醫藥三法修訂以後 罰單一罰一開就是幾百萬啦為一百控告年 一百十年 一百十一年喔"},{"start":20119.923,"end":20120.343,"text":"謝謝大家體驗農民 農漁民 謝謝"},{"start":20150.168,"end":20152.711,"text":"三五二三五二出案三五三主席有沒有人先來 照案通過"},{"start":20170.455,"end":20177.164,"text":"354改組結議沒有見通過355通商通案處理356改組結議沒有見通過357改組結議沒有見通過358改組結議沒有見通過359"},{"start":20184.774,"end":20185.174,"text":"365案委員已經同意改組決議"},{"start":20208.967,"end":20211.389,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":20237.755,"end":20258.834,"text":"請進啦請進啦這是 協商預算不是在質詢啦齁對因為 像你剛才講的 聽得懂就知道要保留好了"},{"start":20263.308,"end":20264.729,"text":"主席長主主席長通山林你們你們五個人啦對啦對啦"},{"start":20295.019,"end":20296.902,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":20692.655,"end":20708.13,"text":"財政委員在這裡40幾案而已啊?沒有沒有財政委員會8幾百協調全40你不是說協調全40幾案嗎?全40而已啦協調 都協調對啦 對啦 他們都一百一百四十幾所以很快就到那個了喔?很快就到教育了喔"},{"start":20720.614,"end":20721.055,"text":"不知道有協調"},{"start":20793.919,"end":20807.027,"text":"主席長你先告還是我先告跟大家報告一下受主席長的交代"},{"start":20824.697,"end":20833.42,"text":"跟四大黨團的交代跟大家報告經各黨團協商結果113年度稅出通商總數299億元各項目刪減比例由主計總署調整"},{"start":20849.594,"end":20858.737,"text":"調整完就跟四大黨團報告一下二九九四大堡啦我們尊重四個宗教啦"},{"start":20875.146,"end":20889.333,"text":"好 來接下來跟大家報告一下接下來我們就開始來協商財政委員會的部分首先進行行政院主席總署還需要再介紹一下好 來"},{"start":20903.391,"end":20905.133,"text":"主計總署預算案"},{"start":20919.616,"end":20919.896,"text":"委員會是多少?"},{"start":20942.938,"end":20964.644,"text":"325萬維園會比較多啦維園會比較多嗎對啊好 那就並維園會好 那第二案就是文字修正那凍結並維園會決議辦理好那第三案就是改組決議沒有見通過好第四案尊重委員提案凍結 同意第四案凍結數字並維園會決議辦理並維園會啊對啊"},{"start":20969.926,"end":20970.146,"text":"第五案 凍結"},{"start":20984.925,"end":21011.217,"text":"第五案提書面報告第六案會併委員接辦提書面報告第七組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第八組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第九組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第十組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":21013.934,"end":21039.344,"text":"第十一組決議有沒有人見?沒有端端委員提案端端通過第十二組決議端端通過再來就是監察院主管來監察院主管我們就來介紹列席的所長省紀部省紀長陳瑞敏先生已經在場好來"},{"start":21043.127,"end":21051.553,"text":"第十三案 改組決議 沒意見就通過第四案 凍結一百萬年 我們是不是併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":21074.868,"end":21096.64,"text":"財政部財政部來介紹我來介紹一下列席的首長財政部部長莊翠雲女士接下來我們就開始第19案改組決議沒有見就通過20案改組決議沒有見通過21案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":21100.362,"end":21114.867,"text":"二十二案通三通案辦理二十三案改組結議 明日會見通過二十四案通三通案辦理二十五案組織案二十六案就併委會結議辦理併委會結議辦理提出面報告通過二十七案遵照辦理"},{"start":21129.229,"end":21154.978,"text":"好 那就我講一下啦齁這案子原來是我提要減略一百萬後來改成五十萬現在改為五萬可不可不自行調整嘛 阿捏好 現在改為五萬好 那二十七案就是減略五十萬齁扣免自行調整沒有見通過二十八案改組結議沒有見通過二十九案的組結議有沒有見正照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":21159.281,"end":21159.681,"text":"二十七案出來"},{"start":21174.833,"end":21175.433,"text":"今天已經13號了 請問部長"},{"start":21204.166,"end":21208.868,"text":"中央的部分大概會在2700億左右總體的話就全國來說大概也差不多3500億左右"},{"start":21222.003,"end":21222.163,"text":"專案小組是誰"},{"start":21246.203,"end":21246.583,"text":"那你今年編的這個比現在的時增數會增加多少"},{"start":21271.241,"end":21286.767,"text":"113年是兩兆兩千九百多億那在財委會已經增加一百五十億所以大概是兩兆三千多億吧那你預估113的稅購收入會多少現在當然是我們預算數就是我們當時在編估的時候的一個預測數"},{"start":21292.328,"end":21299.651,"text":"會不會2013年又大幅超脫啊2013年編的已經比2012年來說增加了一千多億"},{"start":21304.404,"end":21323.595,"text":"每天都增加超增三四千億你聽我說真的四千五千那113年其實已經我們已經有調調參議會只有增加三千億喔?增加一百五十億啊多少?一百五十億啊一百五十億喔?我覺得應該加個零欸沒有啦 那就一年才會超過一年才會說 欸 乾脆破啊然後我們人比他少啊他媽不就拿這個標判這樣啊當然提案啊我們說最少應該增加一千億啊因為不行啊"},{"start":21334.321,"end":21336.863,"text":"我們再提案好了 增加個1500億"},{"start":21355.879,"end":21355.979,"text":"我沒這個能耐"},{"start":21371.846,"end":21377.667,"text":"何總召講錯了說聘我專家寫者那是專家寫的專家不是明年是我們聘我給你糾正明年是侯"},{"start":21397.143,"end":21425.351,"text":"法院就法院就好了 33案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 34案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 35案主決議有沒有意見 任照辦理 照案通過36案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 37案主決議有沒有意見 任照辦理 照案通過 38案主決議"},{"start":21427.107,"end":21450.597,"text":"責任通過39案主決議責任通過40案主決議責任通過41案主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過42案主決議沒有意見修正通過43案改主決議沒有意見通過44案改主決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":21451.357,"end":21452.619,"text":"委員會是多少?3000多萬喔?所以5% 差不多?"},{"start":21469.801,"end":21497.987,"text":"好啦那就併委員會好謝謝那46案齁動結併委員會接辦理提書面報告好不好好沒有意見就通過動結也是併委員會好啦47案改組決議沒有意見通過48案組決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過49案組決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過50案改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":21499.008,"end":21522.26,"text":"五十一案改檢列十萬年科目自行調整沒有見通過五十二案改凍結百分之五這個凍結是不是病委員會接辦理好不好好那就病委員接辦理提書面報告沒有見通過院長不好意思五十二的這個五十二案五十二案"},{"start":21523.926,"end":21539.906,"text":"五十二應該是沒有要並這個委員沒有好那就照裡面的溝通好那就凍結百分之五十提出面報告沒有意見通過五十三案改簡列十五萬年科目自行調整沒有意見通過五十四案改凍結百分之十沒有意見通過"},{"start":21540.707,"end":21566.773,"text":"五十四案 改組結議 沒意見通過五十六案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十七案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十八案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十九案 凍結三十萬元 那就總統知道是不是要併委員會接辦理好 併委員會接辦理 但是要提事面報告五十四案是不是要併委員會 五十四案"},{"start":21568.302,"end":21576.345,"text":"60案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過61案改主決議沒有意見通過62案撤案60案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過64案改主決議沒有意見就通過"},{"start":21597.914,"end":21598.375,"text":"那沒有意見通過"},{"start":21627.728,"end":21630.029,"text":"這個凍結是不是被委員接辦了委員會凍結三千多萬好"},{"start":21655.465,"end":21656.987,"text":"7.9案凍結已併委員接辦理提書面報告"},{"start":21673.9,"end":21694.532,"text":"80案凍結已併委員接辦理提出面報告 沒有意見通過81案凍結已併委員接辦理 沒有意見通過82案檢列10萬年 沒有意見通過公務自行調整83案通山 84案通山 這兩個案就併"},{"start":21696.493,"end":21700.296,"text":"因為這個也不是只有財政部才有幾乎啊好幾個部位都有就是我們要放備援系統"},{"start":21725.5,"end":21748.217,"text":"那備援系統其實本來就有放結果他這次要加這個 增加這筆預算備援系統一副要打仗的樣子 放在美國 放在境外讓我講完讓我講完 不要緊張所以 排這個不是只有省政部 其他部位很多都有我覺得一方面"},{"start":21749.727,"end":21750.667,"text":"現在有沒有境外?還沒有吧?"},{"start":21775.303,"end":21789.87,"text":"沒有 那個還沒開始那個司法部也是有這個案子嘛好幾個部隊喔 司法部的喔你講我的喔還沒開始那個還要修法 成立一個委員會這個凍結兩百萬會不會變委員會結辦的運動委員會凍結兩億啊沒有啦 我是假的"},{"start":21799.022,"end":21814.29,"text":"他已經同意了他們文字修正我加幾個字跨境備運的部分要在中華民國進來並順便報告我們遵照修正後的內容文字修正嘛凍結並文件辦理就通過89案"},{"start":21826.442,"end":21833.433,"text":"八十九案事實上跟八十八案一樣是不是併以八十八案一併的併哪裡八十八案"},{"start":21835.31,"end":21836.351,"text":"這邊還有一個案吳斯案我剛才講的"},{"start":21866.125,"end":21885.99,"text":"五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案"},{"start":21893.032,"end":21893.473,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21908.626,"end":21918.288,"text":"147案是要簡列300億元 大家意見怎麼樣是不是我可以說明一下在這裡的委員提案是說要簡列舉債300億元然後用稅積剩餘我想這部分是不是可以修正為並同稅入稅出審議的結果來通盤調整那個債務舉借"},{"start":21938.133,"end":21957.186,"text":"還有遺用以前年度稅計的剩餘因為這個300億把他講得太死了因為其實稅入稅出審核完以後就可以是不是繼續做這樣的修正要修正東西嘛那最後就曾總召來講來來來來那個部長到現在債務以額實際數字多少5兆8188億預算數呢預算數是6兆多6兆多多少6點多少"},{"start":21970.625,"end":21984.353,"text":"6兆5千676億6兆5千多嘛 對不對這個是財政部網站6兆5啦那還有多少特別預算是131415"},{"start":21987.419,"end":21994.888,"text":"還沒編進來的預算數就我們說一千五百多億一四加一五年度那特別預算會編列的舉借數是一五九五億"},{"start":22004.637,"end":22006.339,"text":"你先弄清楚你那個6乍5的預算數是到112還是113到113的預算數多少"},{"start":22028.937,"end":22034.559,"text":"6兆8241 68245因為蔡政府啊 浪費 亂花錢啊怎麼亂花錢啊你聽我說嘛我這個創 可以申請金氏紀錄啦"},{"start":22055.629,"end":22076.883,"text":"只是正八年拿出十三項的特別預算啦反正最多那你花更多啦結果那113年度是6821對不對對113嘛對不對那實際數是5兆8我知道啦我如果不接預算數跟實際數我就不會檢查啦不會當你們財政部的常識政治啦"},{"start":22086.8,"end":22091.061,"text":"那還有特別預算裡面13項特別預算裡面哪些還沒有邊境這個113的預算數的"},{"start":22115.199,"end":22144.353,"text":"一三六一四呢當然知道啊一四一五呢就是剛剛跟各位報告跟委員報告就是一千五百九十五億在特別預算裡面會在一一四跟一一五年舉借的是這樣的數字分配的數字是這樣子所以預算數是多少三八六九所以"},{"start":22145.663,"end":22159.849,"text":"蔡政府留下來的帳是多少?預算數啦齁我講預算數嗎?你敢憋嗎?阿會不會用?不知道阿你說你運氣好,超收就不借吧是69,850對不對?6兆9,850對不對?加進來阿但是我們也會還債阿"},{"start":22176.67,"end":22177.61,"text":"那你再算 你要還多少"},{"start":22207.027,"end":22207.608,"text":"明年也編了1150億也會還債"},{"start":22230.779,"end":22233.78,"text":"法黨派提的 包括王榮章也有 謝謝"},{"start":22261.158,"end":22279.506,"text":"我的提案給他簽名的啦你知道對對對他知道我拿給他簽名的才會過好講一下吧就讓還原事實不要講說五到八還有多一兆沒講一兆多沒講這樣我們147案怎麼處理就檢列300億剛才跟那個主席報告一下"},{"start":22287.321,"end":22295.45,"text":"他說增加移用以前年度稅據剩餘300億目前稅據剩餘只剩下30億了所以不可能有300億了"},{"start":22297.315,"end":22309.425,"text":"剩下多少?30億喔?只有30億,因為他們財政部都拿進來現在的稅收操作要等那個一,要等那個審計部審計完了以後才能夠用才能夠用啦所以現在講的說有什麼採決議的話做主決議怎麼樣?"},{"start":22322.543,"end":22351.196,"text":"好 OK那147案改組決議那沒有意見就通過148組決議有沒有意見遵照辦理好 照案通過院長不好意思算這個不好意思是我們民進黨執政黨提的這個組決議當然我們也支持那只是說這邊既然寫稅科收入5%啦其實我們按公務預算法其實為什麼不到6%我們還是希望說你們5到6啦 5到6啦不是 因為5就是下限嘛"},{"start":22352.079,"end":22359.214,"text":"那其實我們一直 其實剛才也講了其實今年都甚至還是超徵那麼多所以我們一直都覺得說其實這麼多預算"},{"start":22361.434,"end":22383.689,"text":"如果我們有超徵的話其實這個真的是先拿來還債啦那其實6%這個本來就是法律上規定的是上限是6%下限是5%嘛所以沒有錯所以是不是如果我們真的要符合財政機率我們其實是應該往6%的方向去做啊其實過去就一直都是都才一點點嘛"},{"start":22384.997,"end":22387.878,"text":"我瞭解 但是你看每一次現在這幾年 連續這幾年那個超增的這個數目"},{"start":22408.305,"end":22408.425,"text":"法定5%"},{"start":22426.741,"end":22449.107,"text":"法定是5%嘛只要多的話我們就多還嘛所以我們要先達到這個5%其實這個主權這樣寫應該是這樣他本來就要做到的他要是不做到他反而是違法的就是我們要求他我也正要問啊你寫這個主席幹嘛對啊他本來就一定要做到他要不做到他就違法了你問他你嚇到就嚇人你就做啊他本來議法要做啊"},{"start":22457.597,"end":22458.779,"text":"對 不做反而是違法的"},{"start":22466.217,"end":22482.748,"text":"這個最主要是因為稅客收入因為在我們編列的時候一定會去5%對 因為委員會有加了150億所以在這裡做這樣的一個提案的話那就要必須要增加好 那就這樣啦就這樣啦齁好 那接下來我們就金管會金管會主管的預算來"},{"start":22500.844,"end":22503.865,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主任委員黃天牧先生"},{"start":22533.306,"end":22538.411,"text":"請大家看九十六案九十六案凍結百分之二十"},{"start":22541.345,"end":22551.431,"text":"好 那就並委員結議辦理97案改組結議沒有意見通過98案改組結議沒有意見通過99案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過100案改檢列15案也沒有意見通過101案改檢列10案也沒有意見通過102案改檢列10案也沒有意見通過103案改組結議沒有意見通過104案改凍結1%提示面報告沒有意見通過"},{"start":22570.502,"end":22572.004,"text":"105案動結100萬元106案改組結議107的組結議有沒有意見"},{"start":22594.824,"end":22621.694,"text":"遵照辦理好 那召喚通過108主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1109主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過110主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過111主決議有沒有意見遵照辦理好 那沒意見召喚通過12主決議好 召喚通過113主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過114主決議"},{"start":22624.261,"end":22625.502,"text":"好 召喚通告接下來1234通3"},{"start":22655.401,"end":22660.725,"text":"124改檢列5萬年,那免費建設照案通過124改檢列5萬年,免費建設通過第二幕銀行監理這個應該銀行局的案子吧"},{"start":22685.719,"end":22710.621,"text":"124上面那個第二幕銀行監理就827萬動605萬,這個根本動不了這個要改一下,委員會要改一下,改十分之一就好了124到123之間啦,123到124之間第二幕銀行監理找人去的薪水囉委員會動太多了,這個動十分之一,要改一下"},{"start":22713.629,"end":22727.92,"text":"原列827萬,動一個你有沒有理由,動到就沒人動那這個不要動好了,動27萬就好了沒人動的,先問清楚我發現這個有異狀委員會這是委員會委員會是誰提案那時候有誰提案的各黨團都有這類機器那時候不知道什麼情緒發生了那這個不合理啦動多少"},{"start":22742.386,"end":22761.02,"text":"營養局也當過局長啊?對你有沒有?我當過副局長副局長齁?這不可以再衝了動多少?現在?主委現在動多少?827萬、動605萬,應該動了27萬就好了啦動100啦,要不要?動100啦你也要尊重人家委員會啊,不要想那些你還以為委員會要一種化身?動50萬啦,50萬好了"},{"start":22771.067,"end":22772.788,"text":"第二幕 銀行監理 原累827萬2千元 凍結605萬4千4百元 改為50萬"},{"start":22801.305,"end":22801.965,"text":"改為凍結50萬年現在就看126案124、125"},{"start":22827.892,"end":22830.813,"text":"實例這邊我們要檢列五萬現在是126凍結10"},{"start":22849.819,"end":22851.921,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":22870.185,"end":22893.551,"text":"一三二組決議,文字修正,沒有意見就修正通過一三三因為一三三要凍結百分之二十,那委員會已經凍結一百零八萬並委員會,一般行政而已嘛沒有意見就並委員會決議辦理這誰的案子阿黃衛委員的阿黃衛委員的阿黃衛委員,再四號法制來好啦你去問啦"},{"start":22895.805,"end":22909.77,"text":"有跟他 有拜會他 但是他他沒有辦法 那個時候他說交友證明中處理好 就這樣就好了報告總召 你是說他的提案內容堅持什麼"},{"start":22918.444,"end":22944.915,"text":"那就是說因為核酷投信有人跟他檢舉那他覺得...他覺得這個...在那邊...在那邊處理了嗎?處理掉了啊?AMC是老早的啊,今年是投信啦他覺得投信那個出差的理由不正當啦沒關係啦叫我們去...去查我們就...有去查了嗎?有去查,有去查,謝謝你們裡面有沒有錄文作假的?好,133病毒人員決議辦理錄文作假阿134...我們錄文作假"},{"start":22946.717,"end":22968.936,"text":"一三四 並委員決議辦理 沒有意見通過一三五 改檢列五萬年 沒有意見通過一三六 改檢列五萬年 沒有意見通過一三七 主決議有沒有意見 照案通過一三八 主決議文書修正 沒有意見修正通過一三九 主決議文書修正 沒有意見修正通過一四零 並委員決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":22970.778,"end":22980.028,"text":"141 主決議 文字修正沒有一件就修正通過142 主決議 文字修正沒有一件就修正通過143 改檢列五萬年沒有一件通過144 主決議"},{"start":22983.466,"end":23011.24,"text":"這個部分是跟各位跟院長跟各位報告因為原提案是希望我們直接去查農業金庫但是因為當時金管會成立的時候農委會是說我們他是委託我們去查農業金庫或是農委會的信用部所以不是我們不是農業部啦我們必須要農業部指示我們我們才能去查是這個原因"},{"start":23012.06,"end":23038.378,"text":"現在農業金庫監檢誰在做檢察局在做檢察局在做但是是根據農委會委託我們金管會去檢查農業金庫那今天這個決議是叫我們金管會直接去查這個下面那個淡的那個問淡的資金我們修一下因為這個東西真的要檢查能不能說請"},{"start":23040.495,"end":23041.836,"text":"建議撤案還是要保留"},{"start":23065.104,"end":23079.007,"text":"李慧明委員的提案我們本來是想如果是加農業部委託儘管會如果是農業部加農業部因為農業部還有第二輪嘛加個農業部給農業部不是直接給特政委員就給農業部我們有文字提案的修正"},{"start":23094.134,"end":23115.582,"text":"這樣啦 到農業部再處理啦那這個案抽出來啊 農業部啦 好啊到農業部再處理啦好 要記得喔抽到 通過農業部 農業部要二輪嘛對不對農業部要踢回來就好了農業部欠揍嘛"},{"start":23117.807,"end":23118.107,"text":"結論是農業部委託政府去查"},{"start":23141.983,"end":23164.328,"text":"這一個案就是等於調整到榮譽部主管啦這樣對不對我們另行做決議啦調整到榮譽部主管裡面再做決議啦好來145案主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過146案主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過好147案已經過了好就這樣好休息五分鐘"},{"start":23172.13,"end":23173.23,"text":"好 休息五分鐘 換文教"},{"start":23202.1,"end":23202.32,"text":"主席"},{"start":23228.27,"end":23229.031,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23253.514,"end":23254.255,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23287.414,"end":23288.655,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23320.052,"end":23321.637,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23337.556,"end":23339.698,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23363.84,"end":23364.761,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23389.821,"end":23402.108,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":23703.991,"end":23705.212,"text":"教育文化委員會預算"},{"start":23732.659,"end":23760.701,"text":"中研院的預算我介紹一下列席的首長中研院院長因為另有要工他昨天有打電話來表達說他會請副院長來代表那現在我就介紹中研院副院長周美銀女士好那我們就看"},{"start":23762.605,"end":23783.833,"text":"第一案第一案改組協議有沒有意見沒有意見通過接下來就故宮故宮我來介紹一下這個類型的所長國立故宮博物院院長蕭忠煌先生"},{"start":23786.783,"end":23799.987,"text":"請大家看第二案第二案並委員結議辦理有沒有意見沒有意見通過第三案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過第四案改組結議沒有意見通過第五案改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":23804.704,"end":23805.985,"text":"這是不是可以併委員接辦禮來來"},{"start":23832.206,"end":23833.527,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":23875.836,"end":23900.392,"text":"明天就是最後兩組吧然後在第二輪好來可以啦我們現在進行核能會所屬的預算那我首先介紹列席的所長核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽先生"},{"start":23903.424,"end":23903.504,"text":"17.改組結議18.凍結10%19.改組結議"},{"start":23929.284,"end":23955.587,"text":"已經改組結意沒有意見通過第二十一案改組結意沒有意見通過第二十二、二十三通案處理第二十四案組結意文字修正沒有意見就修正通過二十五案組結意文字修正沒有意見也是修正通過再來換教育部"},{"start":23960.134,"end":23963.877,"text":"政府都有去溝通嗎?有,不錯"},{"start":23971.011,"end":23994.029,"text":"交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人"},{"start":24009.424,"end":24019.348,"text":"接下來是學商教育部主管的預算我介紹列席的所長教育部部長潘榮忠先生"},{"start":24021.601,"end":24032.731,"text":"接下來請大家看26案改增列50案沒有見通過27案改組結議沒有見通過28案屬於通算就通案處理29案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24041.069,"end":24047.473,"text":"30案改組決議沒有意見通過31案改組決議沒有意見通過32案改組決議沒有意見通過34案通刪科目我們就通案處理"},{"start":24057.892,"end":24071.922,"text":"35案改組結議沒有見通過36案改組結議沒有見通過37案改檢列20案也沒有見通過38案改組結議沒有見通過39改組結議沒有見通過40案改組結議沒有見通過41案改組結議沒有見通過42案改組結議沒有見通過43案改組結議沒有見通過44案併委員結議辦理沒有見通過45案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24087.454,"end":24090.117,"text":"46案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過47案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過48案改組結議沒有意見通過49案"},{"start":24098.039,"end":24119.885,"text":"47案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過50案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過51案壁魯園街辦理﹖沒有意見通過52案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過53案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過54案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過55案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過56案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過57案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過58案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過"},{"start":24127.915,"end":24154.568,"text":"五十九案改組結議沒有見通過六十案改組結議沒有見通過六十一案改組結議沒有見通過六十二改組結議沒有見通過六十三改組結議沒有見通過六十四案改凍結一百萬年沒有見通過六十五案並委員結議辦理沒有見通過六十六案改組結議沒有見通過六十七案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24157.569,"end":24162.051,"text":"68改動捷50萬也沒有見通告68案68案並委員決議辦理大家有沒有意見那不好意思那當然還是麻煩部長那這個報告還是要給我們好那提一個書面報告給這個提案人我們遵照辦理"},{"start":24186.843,"end":24193.868,"text":"68案 並委員結議辦理 動輯並委員結議辦理 提示面報告沒有意見通過69案 改組結議沒有意見通過 70案 並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24201.499,"end":24216.875,"text":"七十一案改組結議沒有意見通過七十二案改組結議沒有意見通過七十三案改組結議沒有意見通過七十四案組結議文字修正沒有意見修正通過七十五案組結議文字修正沒有意見修正通過七十六案"},{"start":24220.509,"end":24220.93,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24234.11,"end":24234.83,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":24255.379,"end":24255.619,"text":"暫停會議暫停會議暫停會議暫停會議"},{"start":24285.868,"end":24287.93,"text":"102 主決議有做文字修正那沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":24315.697,"end":24342.413,"text":"103 主決議 證照辦理 照案通過104 主決議有文字修正 但沒有意見就修正通過105 主決議也有文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過106 也有文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過107 主決議做文字修正 委員這邊有同意"},{"start":24346.589,"end":24374.833,"text":"107有文字修正是吧對對他本來就有文字修正也跟委員報告委員已經同意改組決修正通過的意思那就照案通過啦對不對好那就照案通過108就依照修正文字就是改3個A那個嘛那個是通案就照案通過109修正後我們遵照辦理"},{"start":24376.038,"end":24394.303,"text":"11有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告12有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告13主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告14主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告"},{"start":24405.811,"end":24430.703,"text":"115 主席有修正文字沒有意見就招人通過116 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過117 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過118 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過119 沒有意見就招人通過120 沒有意見就招人通過"},{"start":24433.478,"end":24445.125,"text":"121主決議有修正文字沒有建設修正通告121文字有修正那沒有建設修正通告123主決議 中照辦理124主決議 中照辦理127改主決議還沒有到127來 再寫125125的部分增累八千萬年"},{"start":24460.631,"end":24465.255,"text":"要改成組結議有沒有意見 以後黨長會不要再建校園"},{"start":24484.132,"end":24502.44,"text":"上次我也執行執行過因為黨場會的意識形態跟教育部不一樣你不要以後不要再請這個黨場會去辦什麼活動部長我這要求合理吧總商我們了解好謝謝好1271改組結議那沒有意見通過好來128測案"},{"start":24512.779,"end":24520.806,"text":"要求改檢列10萬年免費券通過130通山歌舞通案處理好 測案130測案"},{"start":24525.131,"end":24533.593,"text":"131改組結議沒有意見通過132改組結議沒有意見通過133改組結議沒有意見通過134改組結議沒有意見通過135改組結議沒有意見通過136改組結議沒有意見通過137改組結議沒有意見通過138併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過139改組結議沒有意見通過140併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過141併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24550.097,"end":24553.318,"text":"142 改組結議沒有見通過143 併委員結議辦理沒有見通過144 改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24566.963,"end":24573.866,"text":"145改組結議沒有見通過146併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過147併委員會決議辦理沒有一見通過148併委員會決議辦理沒有一見通過149改組結議沒有見通過150併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過151併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過152改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24588.213,"end":24598.369,"text":"153主席議正照辦理好 暫緩通過154主席議有作文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過155主席議有作文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過156"},{"start":24601.598,"end":24625.425,"text":"主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過157主席正照辦理好 照案通過158主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過159主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過160主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過161主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過院長有一個新的161-1161-1喔對好來"},{"start":24630.404,"end":24634.367,"text":"161-1 那就通過161-1 通過162-3 就通案處理163 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過164 測案165 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過166 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過167 改組協議 167 改組協議 裡面會見通過"},{"start":24661.271,"end":24668.513,"text":"168改組協議沒有見通過169改組協議沒有見通過170並委員會回問170並委員接辦理沒有見通過171改組協議沒有見通過172改組協議沒有見通過173動議1000萬能部長解釋一下嗎"},{"start":24688.318,"end":24710.853,"text":"這個案子請教委員會有什麼跟主席來個委員報告齁這個在委員會出審的時候凍結100萬我們是不是建議可以併委員會的決議辦理173併委員會決議辦理之後那然後這個報告給我們好不好順便報告好第一個順便報告給提案件好那就照這樣通過174併委員會決議辦理如果沒有意見就通過175改凍結100萬錢這個要不要"},{"start":24717.128,"end":24718.808,"text":"177 並委員會決議178 並委員會決議辦理 179 撤案 180 通案辦理"},{"start":24746.515,"end":24768.321,"text":"主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過182 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過183 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過184 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過185 改主決議﹖沒有意見通過"},{"start":24772.076,"end":24776.618,"text":"186改組協議,沒有見通過187改組協議,沒有見通過188改組協議,沒有見通過189改組協議,沒有見通過190190就是召喚通過好來介紹介紹,來不知道不知道小姐姐小姐姐"},{"start":24801.22,"end":24804.982,"text":"但是你病的時候,人家提案的人要跟他病進去啊?都是提案的啦一樣啦,要加也可以啦加一個證明中啦加柯建銘啦"},{"start":24828.51,"end":24830.551,"text":"交付不錯,交付都可以溝通,所以很順利啦"},{"start":24858.319,"end":24860.896,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":24903.776,"end":24918.376,"text":"好那我現在來進行文化部主管的協商那我來介紹列席的所長文化部部長史哲先生好那接下來我們就請大家看191案"},{"start":24920.437,"end":24929.46,"text":"並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過192改組決議沒有意見通過193改組決議沒有意見通過194並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過195改組決議沒有意見通過196並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過197並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過198改組決議沒有意見通過199並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24945.849,"end":24954.636,"text":"200案改組協議沒有見通過201改組協議沒有見通過202改組協議沒有見通過203改組協議沒有見通過204改組協議沒有見通過205並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過206並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過207並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過208改組協議沒有見通過209並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過210並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過"},{"start":24977.213,"end":24984.757,"text":"211 並委員會決議沒有意見通過212 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過213 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過214 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過215 改組決議沒有意見通過216 改組決議沒有意見通過217 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":25000.464,"end":25007.43,"text":"218 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過219 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過220 改組決議沒有見通過221 改組決議沒有見通過222 撤案223 改組決議沒有見通過224 改組決議沒有見通過225 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過226 改組決議沒有見通過227 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過228 改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":25028.687,"end":25035.81,"text":"228保留229保留230保留231、232屬於通商、通案處理233主協議有沒有意見看有沒有意見"},{"start":25057.085,"end":25057.705,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":25079.744,"end":25080.545,"text":"236 主決議237 主決議238 主決議239 主決議240 主決議"},{"start":25102.694,"end":25109.355,"text":"每日間召喚通過21組結議每日間召喚通過22組結議有做文書修正每日間就修正通過23組結議每日間就召喚通過24組結議每日間召喚通過25組結議每日間召喚通過26組結議建議修正文字啦這是華市啦華市的經費大部分哪裡來"},{"start":25132.377,"end":25132.677,"text":"租金收入"},{"start":25148.908,"end":25172.049,"text":"我覺得這個華氏 照理講國防集團應該比較客觀嘛現在跟好像是三綠的子公司一樣啊 不用擋著啊常常修理我們啊 哪敢修理 都修理國民黨啊沒有沒有沒有他有修理你啊沒有沒有 我不要看了你叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他"},{"start":25179.353,"end":25205.603,"text":"這很誇張啊 三立啊 都是高層都從那個部長 現在華視是誰在管啊為什麼都是從三立的人派來啊吳延輝啊吳延輝 那個公司的董事長是不是是那我們現在暫停請吳延輝來啊不用啦不能這樣 都從三立找人來 這不行啊 部長"},{"start":25208.66,"end":25237.012,"text":"你提過之後以及我上任之後從來還沒有處理過人事啦對啊 你沒有處理啊 都是胡元輝在處理啊都從山裡找人啊 這不可以這樣子啊這1年來其實都沒有人事的禁用啦高層都沒有人事八百年前的事八百年前的事以前是國安部的啦 對不對華視本來國安部的嘛你等一下那個二輪的時候你問國安部長你給我包公啦"},{"start":25237.622,"end":25245.365,"text":"阿是不是我來建議一下保護時間我來建議一下就是說25、26、27、28、29、250阿全部保留不要保留啦阿不要浪費時間阿25、26、27、28保留好不好到28阿那個部長是"},{"start":25263.903,"end":25287.886,"text":"華氏現在還要活化資產嗎內部的一大堆 內部撿起來一大堆華氏的活化資產目前沒有都只是在研議階段對啦 你看嘛 你那個內部管理有問題啊黃國民黨實在就一直研究到現在你又扯國民黨 你扯國防部好啦等二輪的時候你問一下周部長"},{"start":25289.619,"end":25290.139,"text":"那249是不是通過"},{"start":25320.953,"end":25349.27,"text":"就只有到245、246、247、248四個案啦那249修正文字通過好不好修正文字啦四個案保留啦二輪再來講啦249修正文字啦謝謝249組結議做文字修正那就修正通過現在沒有看到文字喔有有有有好"},{"start":25350.253,"end":25351.254,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25366.533,"end":25385.506,"text":"要不要修正 召喚通過 召喚通過好來 253組結議 修正文字好 修正文通過254組結議 修正文字OK 好 修正文字 修正通過2555改組結議 沒人見通過256改組結議 沒人見通過257併委員結議辦理 沒人見通過258併委員結議辦理 沒人見通過259組結議 有沒有人見召喚通過 好 召喚通過 可以嗎"},{"start":25398.266,"end":25406.072,"text":"261 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過262 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過263 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過264 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過265 改組結議沒有意見通過266 組結議有沒有意見"},{"start":25420.868,"end":25421.008,"text":"267、268測案269測案"},{"start":25429.636,"end":25436.719,"text":"270改組結議沒有見通過271改組結議沒有見通過272測案273改組結議沒有見通過274測案275改組結議沒有見通過276改組結議沒有見通過277改組結議沒有見通過278改組結議沒有見通過279改組結議沒有見通過280測案好來"},{"start":25457.935,"end":25458.275,"text":"交通委員會"},{"start":25493.08,"end":25505.07,"text":"接下來我們就進行國家科學及技術委員會主管的預算首先我介紹列席的所長國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳正宗先生"},{"start":25506.667,"end":25515.352,"text":"好 那現在我們請大家看281案改組決議沒有意見通過282案改組決議沒有意見通過283案改為凍結5%沒有意見 都通過 有沒有意見沒有意見通過283 講好了 他們講好了凍結5% 講好了齁"},{"start":25535.738,"end":25544.586,"text":"284通3通案辦理285通3通案辦理286、287、288、289、290、291、292都是通3我們就通案處理293主決議文書修正沒有一些修正通過294主決議"},{"start":25560.083,"end":25564.425,"text":"沒有意見就召喚通過齁好召喚通過295組結議召喚通過好召喚通過296組結議好召喚通過297組結議好召喚通過好來到一段落好來這樣"},{"start":25897.438,"end":25918.906,"text":"交通委員會的部分首先我們就處理國家通信傳播委員會的預算介紹國家通信傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥先生接下來請大家看第一案第一案大家有什麼意見邱總召"},{"start":25927.191,"end":25944.379,"text":"院長因為這個案件也跟主委討論過非常多次因為三立入主宗家的這個部分一直到現在也都沒有任何一個處分所以這個沒辦法對社會交代"},{"start":25952.066,"end":25980.543,"text":"頻道商跟系統商不能夠結合違反這個反媒體壟斷的紅線這是非常清楚的那從9月8號到現在已經這個三個月過去了到現在連一個處分都沒有這沒有道理啊所以就這個部分的話我們的案當然就是說雖然凍結NCC一般行政預算50%啊那這個先保就好了"},{"start":25982.798,"end":26006.89,"text":"主委要不要說明一下保留啦主委說明啦謝謝委員關心這個案子其實我們一直在討論當中我們近期應該也會做出一些相關的決定那該處罰我們還是會處罰先說明一下 謝謝那保留好不好好保留一案保留第二案"},{"start":26009.534,"end":26009.694,"text":"第四案"},{"start":26038.448,"end":26046.657,"text":"併委員的接辦禮好 媒體先弄夠院長不好意思 我第三案那邊就是併委員會處理沒問題但是那個報告要請給我們 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":26054.977,"end":26062.399,"text":"報告主席不好意思第八案委員有簽字改組決議我沒有把資料放在桌上改組決議好"},{"start":26084.366,"end":26089.928,"text":"委員有同意改懲處決議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議"},{"start":26114.112,"end":26122.015,"text":"第十二案保留 第十一案保留 第十二案保留 第十三案也是保留嗎"},{"start":26129.783,"end":26157.839,"text":"十三案是針對這個三立持有中家百分之二十七但是呢這個三立卻僅針對這個榮勝投資百分之十五做出承諾但是另外一個百分之十二的部分那你前面一樣嘛你交代這個不一樣啊這不一樣這個剛剛的第一案是說NCC到現在還沒有做出一個決定嘛也沒有做出一個處分嘛這非常離譜啊已經三個月過去了"},{"start":26158.539,"end":26185.854,"text":"那13案的部分就是說這個12%到底去向去向到底從來沒有交代報告裡面也都完全沒有交代好好第13案的保留第14案保留保留齁保留那第15案要保留要保留哇保留滿多的第16案要保留好來請看"},{"start":26188.543,"end":26205.755,"text":"十七案保留十八案沒有見通過保留十九案沒有見通過保留十八保留十九也是保留二十案也是保留二十一案保留"},{"start":26217.384,"end":26217.664,"text":"25案保留"},{"start":26246.826,"end":26275.407,"text":"二十六案 通過我們先修正文字修正什麼文字保留好了 不要修了二十七案保留 二十八案 遵照辦理通過二十八之一 遵照辦理 二十八也遵照辦理"},{"start":26276.823,"end":26288.86,"text":"二七二八都遵照辦理二七二八都遵照辦理二十八之一介意修正文字修正文字二十八之一主結議修正文字沒有異見的修正通過"},{"start":26290.894,"end":26291.215,"text":"好,這樣好了,謝謝"},{"start":26324.477,"end":26326.638,"text":"致敬就31啊偷吃一下"},{"start":26342.936,"end":26357.106,"text":"現在是國家運輸安全調查委員會主管的預算首先我介紹列席的所長國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德先生接下來請大家看29案29案已經溝通文字修正"},{"start":26372.202,"end":26375.406,"text":"秘密委員會秘密委員會秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密"},{"start":26389.195,"end":26390.436,"text":"議員長我們是希望說這個31案他能夠"},{"start":26408.33,"end":26429.614,"text":"應該是說先保留啦因為因為這個涉及到這個太魯閣的太魯閣事故之後那檢警竟然在車廂裡面還找到這個44件疑似遺難者的遺骸嘛他經過比對還有10名好 那就保留好 31案保留32案凍結併完結辦理如何好就在那裡啊"},{"start":26439.066,"end":26462.407,"text":"三十二案委員會凍結兩百萬這個差不多五十萬而已啊討論的時候好像沒有並委員會結議因為你這個是九百六十萬嘛齁那你如果是二十分之一差不多只有四十萬而已啊四十八萬 五十萬好 那報告要另外交好不好 委員會兩百萬好"},{"start":26466.212,"end":26466.712,"text":"公共工程委員會"},{"start":26501.491,"end":26527.067,"text":"接下來我們就來協商行政院公共工程委員會主管的預算"},{"start":26529.266,"end":26540.619,"text":"首先介紹所長 行政院公共工程委員 會主任委員吳卓成先生現在請大家看 34案通案處理 35案凍結10%是不是病理委員會接辦理病理委員會接辦理"},{"start":26550.407,"end":26578.473,"text":"那36案並無接辦理沒有見通過37案並無接辦理沒有見通過院長不好意思我跟他稍微說明一下就是說37案主委希望能夠就這個中央續產會採購不適用政府採購法的這個部分是不是可以去嚴厲修正這個政府採購法的主體範圍因為這個部分的話這個爭議非常大那為什麼他可以不用適用到這個政府採購法"},{"start":26580.034,"end":26605.197,"text":"那可能這個真的也是要去商榷的 有商榷的餘地啊37案主委 我贊成喔因為有一些財團法人尤其是他的經費來自政府機關或者他的執行長 總經理 董事長是政府派的那基本上他是政府一樣"},{"start":26606.098,"end":26633.235,"text":"所以這些人或這些機構基本上要適用政府採購法你不要清楚你也常常在政府機關服務嘛派到對的人他就依規定給你辦派到不好的人亂搞一通欸所以我贊成啊剛剛邱顯智總召講的這些準政府機構也要適用政府採購法你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":26635.863,"end":26652.2,"text":"這個部分可能相關的部會再來檢討我補充一下 主委 我這個案裡面我有比較那個誰怎麼樣你在照什麼 錄什麼影啊 那一個"},{"start":26656.087,"end":26658.528,"text":"就是說這個我有提出說比較歐盟的公共採購指令那因為歐盟的這個"},{"start":26683.945,"end":26709.723,"text":"指令裡面規定說到底什麼是叫做屬於這個受公法管制的法人的這個屬於採購主體那定義裡面非常明確他有三種一種就是說第一個是吸以滿足公益為其目的而設立不具工業或商業的性質二是說其具有法人格三是其財務大部分由國家地方政府或其他受公法管制的法人所支持的"},{"start":26710.964,"end":26732.159,"text":"按照歐盟採購指令的規定 中央續產會無疑會是採購主體 這沒有問題因為他百分之百接受政府的支持所以就這部分的話 依照整個相關的規定不管是說行政法人法37條 第二項規定 基本上是有"},{"start":26733.5,"end":26753.06,"text":"這個研議的必要啦針對這一類型的符合這一類型的這種法人財團法人或等等之類的這個要不要回答啊啊主委啊這樣38案勒到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":26755.905,"end":26783.271,"text":"好那38案呢就凍結10%沒有意見沒有意見喔建議本會有建議修正文字那建議併委員會決議好那38案併委員會決議辦理修正文字有沒有意見沒有意見報告也要給我們提示文報告給提案員好那39案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":26786.149,"end":26811.684,"text":"事實案 凍結五十萬年 並委員會接辦理 如何不用啦 不用變不用變 不用變 不要講啦 不要變好 那就凍結五十萬年 沒有意見通過事實一案 並委員會接辦理 沒有意見通過事實二案 並委員會接辦理 沒有意見通過事實四案 這個凍結六萬年 是不是並委員會接辦理好好不好"},{"start":26814.721,"end":26835.427,"text":"委員凍結三百萬阿 阿你做個六萬嘛不要併阿 好 就這樣子啦 維持這樣子好啦好啦好啦 凍結六萬年 沒違憲通過 四十五案凍五萬年 沒違憲通過 四十六案主決議 有沒有違憲"},{"start":26837.041,"end":26860.636,"text":"46案本會有建議修正文字好那就文字修正那修正通過好47案主席決議遵照辦理好那就照案通過好好來好謝謝囉那個主委主委接下來就政府"},{"start":26863.404,"end":26863.664,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26912.906,"end":26933.632,"text":"我們繼續現在進行交通部主管的部分首先介紹所長交通部部長王國才先生接下來請大家看第48案48案陣列兩議員有沒有意見"},{"start":26937.277,"end":26943.425,"text":"跟副院長報告,我們因為委員會已經增加3億元了,我們建議並委員會決議辦理委員會辦公室去溝通,只是因為他沒簽名"},{"start":26957.061,"end":26978.796,"text":"好 併委員會決議辦理48案併委員會決議辦理49案也是併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過50案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過51案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過52案通三科目我們就通案辦理好那53案凍結十分之一我們併委員會決議辦理好那就併委員會決議辦理54案"},{"start":26985.956,"end":27013.495,"text":"併委員接辦理好那明日見通過五十五案通商科目我們就通案處理好那五十六案檢列一百二十萬元檢列二十萬就好啦二十萬就好啦郭董過也是建議改為凍結凍結十分之一提書面報告五十萬乾脆把它了結掉啦檢列五十萬可以啦好檢列五十萬好"},{"start":27015.885,"end":27043.266,"text":"沒有意見通過好來五十七案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過五十八案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過五十九案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過六十案通山科目通案處理六十一案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過六十二案凍結五百萬那是不是並委員會決議辦理好"},{"start":27045.373,"end":27059.451,"text":"好沒有人先通過那63案並委員接辦理如果沒有人先通過64案並委員接辦理沒有人先通過65案並委員接辦理沒有人先通過好幾個都要交報告"},{"start":27063.215,"end":27088.02,"text":"好 沒問題那這個陳委員他提到就是626364希望提順便報告來66案我看也是病委會接辦理病委會接辦理沒有意見通過67案病委會接辦理沒有意見通過68案病委會接辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":27090.161,"end":27102.906,"text":"69案已併委員會接辦,你們要不要接?委員會是...是怎麼樣?委員會等於凍結了1億,1億3啦好,那就併委員會,那報告給我你們13億被凍結了1%咧好,那就...那就照案了嗎?照委員會"},{"start":27113.708,"end":27130.219,"text":"趙委員會就是併委員會接一半禮69案也併委員會接一半禮若沒有意見通過70案也併委員會接一半禮沒有意見通過71案也併委員會接一半禮沒有意見通過院長這個有意見因為71案這個涉及到是說當然規則規定機車在無標限的時候必須行駛外側車道但是就是說這個"},{"start":27142.887,"end":27148.695,"text":"道路交通標誌標線號誌設置規則第178條他並沒有一個沒有明定一個標準那191條有關這個帶轉區的劃設標準也沒有一個明確的規範"},{"start":27158.428,"end":27184.907,"text":"所以就這個部分的話其實也凸顯出說它造成很多的問題甚至在這個帶轉區的時候位置不當更變成一個帶撞區這非常危險那所以就這個部分的話這個我們希望能夠簡列這個路徵業務預算一百萬那凍結路徵業務百萬之十啦那希望政府提出一個這一個修法的方案"},{"start":27185.708,"end":27187.632,"text":"然後經教務委員會同意後使得動之"},{"start":27188.686,"end":27216.275,"text":"你要三預算又要多一預算三個月提的出來嗎有沒有修法就是要讓他正視這個問題因為這長期以來已經是一個很嚴重的我們提書面報告是不是凍結就好因為這也是一個很重要的一些業務尤其委員關心的大碗是不是就十分之一我們三個月內提報告這樣好不好凍結十分就是百分之十"},{"start":27218.576,"end":27218.716,"text":"要怎麼樣"},{"start":27238.473,"end":27240.857,"text":"同意凍結 凍十分之一不要變委員會喔我要凍 凍十分之一阿"},{"start":27251.872,"end":27275.643,"text":"但是我不要併委員會啊那是要凍結一個一千四百多萬的十分之一啦那就是我在確認一下我怕講錯啦編案七十一案就凍結十分之一那提報告事務院報告都是陸珍業務嘛大家都十分之一你這個也是陸珍業務啊一樣的啊"},{"start":27281.212,"end":27304.813,"text":"對阿但是我不要併動啦那你要另外動對阿另外動阿跳動那他就交這個書面報告阿我已經沒有簡列了阿因為你這個已經是一個長期的這個問題而且你這個狀況的話是放任這個機車主婦在高度的危險中嘛併動也可以提阿"},{"start":27306.144,"end":27306.264,"text":"邱總召"},{"start":27335.501,"end":27340.946,"text":"七十二案是不是跟七十一案你一個人起兩個案都是同一都一樣"},{"start":27343.618,"end":27362.623,"text":"七十二案這個報告會不一樣啊七十二案的狀況是希望說因為現在的這個砂石車齁或者是說這一個營業車輛的問題非常嚴重嘛你併動啦然後提 中央提報告就好了嘛一樣啊這你這才一千十你這樣兩個這樣就兩"},{"start":27365.51,"end":27391.862,"text":"七十二案我希望說他去參照日本的法規嘛那提出就是說針對這個客域業者也好因為台灣因為現在的狀況就是說對於這些營業的車輛他並沒有科與他的連坐的處罰不是啊 現在就是說你那個這邊十分之一 凍結十分之一下面還有好多個十分之一啦如果這樣凍的話他整個就沒有辦法沒有辦法開頭啦"},{"start":27394.583,"end":27397.525,"text":"7272案的凍結案就秉委員會接一半禮73案的秉委員會接一半禮如何改組決議"},{"start":27420.165,"end":27420.525,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":27445.154,"end":27455.614,"text":"七十二案我問一下部長七十二案要叫你三個月參照日本法規提出,那最後做得到嗎?"},{"start":27456.758,"end":27476.528,"text":"我們就提書面報告不一定按照那個不一定按照我們自己有自己的主體嘛對對對不一定要日有時候一定要照日本的如果連這個日本的這個日車制我在質詢的時候都已經研究我想說連這種交通部都沒辦法提出來的話可以去亂拼這個簡單的事情他大概派員去日本去考察"},{"start":27482.11,"end":27487.235,"text":"運營所也有調查 不然運營所運輸安救所在幹嘛那你幹嘛一直在替他著想他都已經答應了交通部每年花的國家多少錢啊"},{"start":27502.609,"end":27503.19,"text":"三個月竟然沒辦法"},{"start":27528.492,"end":27553.646,"text":"了解到說日本的制度現在管理砂石車是什麼制度嗎他當然知道我現在不是說完全炒一炒 問題是誰要炒好 誰要蓋 總要好不是啊 那你日本的制度比較好日本的砂石車遊覽車的管理比台灣好這是不爭的事實他的這個收穫的死亡率比台灣可能少三分之一欸"},{"start":27554.526,"end":27562.951,"text":"我們一批他又多三倍 又不低欸冷靜冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜"},{"start":27583.883,"end":27585.164,"text":"你這個是來亂的好不好 你是來亂的吧"},{"start":27604.98,"end":27605.26,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27628.241,"end":27634.725,"text":"院長這不用休息啊你來亂好不好院長平平理人家交通部長已經答應了現在已經到了七十三案了他還反過來說七十二案的時候參考日本的這個制度"},{"start":27653.336,"end":27655.377,"text":"七十五案是我們這邊提的 七十五案能按照我們的嗎"},{"start":27682.216,"end":27685.138,"text":"70案就保留,76案並委員結辦禮入"},{"start":27714.093,"end":27734.507,"text":"好 併 77案 併文傑辦理書喔院長 這個讓部長表示一下意見啦不要說都是我們在講那部長針對77案 那你的意見是什麼77案是談那個計車交通環境的問題嗎是啊那個 計車的問題齁就是說車道分配還是計安全沒有77啦 現在77"},{"start":27743.041,"end":27744.242,"text":"市長也非常支持行川縣退縮"},{"start":27765.063,"end":27781.042,"text":"那現在我的案是說你現在就是說我們的罰單很多然後呢也有很多的這個執法的這個開罰增加但是就是說希望這個罰金可以用來強化到案"},{"start":27782.895,"end":27796.191,"text":"你現在的罰單一年多少一千四百萬張那大概兩百多億但是現在問題在哪裡問題是說這些罰單拿到這兩百多億中央 地方"},{"start":27797.589,"end":27817.015,"text":"絕大多數都沒有用在改善交通那許多還在用在增加更多的測速器所以我的案其實非常簡單就是說希望能夠交通部在6個月內接受了不要再講了我又沒有同意要併動"},{"start":27826.049,"end":27843.405,"text":"我現在的做法就是說希望能夠在6個月內完成道路安全標準跟對地方政府苛責的制度的擬定然後你去增加說擬定增加交通違規罰款然後用於道安改善設備跟工程的比例辦法"},{"start":27845.852,"end":27872.883,"text":"這個很合理嘛我們處罰的目的是為了改善交通啊所以你這兩百多億拿到之後並不是為了要對人民再開更多的罰單嘛因為你開更多的罰單最近這幾年來這個罰單的數目一直增加一直增加破千萬張現在已經一千四百萬張每個台灣人每年都快要得到一張罰單了所以你的做法應該是說是不是能夠把這一些交通違規的划緩"},{"start":27873.743,"end":27893.114,"text":"用於道安的改善設備跟工程﹖定一個比例辦法你去一個書面報告因為我們現在的道安﹖比如說現在通過的行人交通安全設施條例﹖一年就400億﹖一年就100億﹖跟這個罰款差不多"},{"start":27893.954,"end":27894.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27918.448,"end":27935.007,"text":"所以我就是希望說他能夠針對這個滑款的部分能夠用在改善交通上面我當然知道你說那個那這個很多的特級學校也一直在爭取嘛那這個也是肯定的態度嘛但是問題就是說那個滑"},{"start":27937.221,"end":27964.646,"text":"這個罰單所收的這些錢不應該變成是一種類似稅金的性質啊如果是這樣的話就是這個牽涉到很多 包括地方政府這個我們還是回到預算啦齁回到預算 77案你們現在要怎麼樣是要併入人的結議辦理還是要那院長要保留啦77案保留那78案"},{"start":27966.24,"end":27972.605,"text":"要保留嗎其實78案的狀況我是希望說因為現在這個所謂的就是說很多的這個案件基本上都是"},{"start":27990.199,"end":27992.22,"text":"不但造成行車行人的風險﹖"},{"start":28016.047,"end":28035.585,"text":"那部長就是說希望針對這個所謂的這個違規的這個熱點那可以去針對這一些違規的熱點去邀集地方政府也好或是說這一些零售業者物流車的業者跟司機那你去商討說如何去改善"},{"start":28036.266,"end":28056.518,"text":"那究竟是說要劃設一個臨庭的卸貨區域因為這主要很多都是沒有維護艇的問題那你沒有維護艇的問題那你去苛責這些物流車的司機或者是說去對這些物流業者再去苛責那也沒辦法所以就是說應該是要劃設"},{"start":28058.519,"end":28061.622,"text":"到底是要怎麼樣的方式去解決﹖那甚至是﹖"},{"start":28080.611,"end":28092.519,"text":"77案保留78案就併委員結議辦理提出面報告79案委員辦公室已經同意改為主決議員我們有送主決議員在79案主決議那沒有意見通過"},{"start":28097.822,"end":28120.28,"text":"那80案 凍結2000萬 去併委員會決議辦理如果80案也是一樣 經過委員辦公室同意改回決議那沒有見通告 81案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告82案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告83案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告84 85通3 我們就通案處理86案縣長84是併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":28126.969,"end":28149.394,"text":"那是通案?那是通案啊?那還是通山的科目?要交報告喔?通山欸交報告是說也要交報告?好 那就你說84案交報告是吧?好 那就提一個書面報告來"},{"start":28155.105,"end":28172.254,"text":"委員長8686這個就是中華快遞年年爆發罷工的爭議那交通部的這個這個中華郵政公司派在這個中華快遞的這個董事基本上到底有沒有善盡這一個"},{"start":28174.309,"end":28175.049,"text":"中華快遞公司團體協商"},{"start":28202.797,"end":28203.118,"text":"這件我們要保留"},{"start":28221.118,"end":28237.783,"text":"86案保留87案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過88案是不是並委員會接辦理也經過委員辦公室同意改組決議組決議那沒有意見通過89案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過90案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過91案通商通案處理92案"},{"start":28246.606,"end":28257.333,"text":"90號案凍結因為前面已經凍結了10分之1等於二十三億啦齁這邊前面凍結二十三億所以90號案是這個凍結是併委員會接辦你如何好"},{"start":28262.998,"end":28266.501,"text":"併委員接辦理9393通案處理93併委員接辦理沒有見通過95案"},{"start":28281.857,"end":28282.057,"text":"104改成主決議"},{"start":28307.668,"end":28309.769,"text":"107組結議有沒有意見交通部 遵照辦理108組結議遵照辦理109組結議遵照辦理110組結議遵照辦理"},{"start":28337.294,"end":28337.975,"text":"文字修正修正通過"},{"start":28362.554,"end":28364.035,"text":"116主席會議117主席會議118主席會議119主席會議118主席會議"},{"start":28390.577,"end":28392.078,"text":"提出書面報告文字修正通過"},{"start":28415.834,"end":28441.341,"text":"一二三組結議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過一二四組結議 也是改文字專案改書面好 那就修正通過一二五組結議 也是專案改書面文字修正好 也是修正通過一二六組結議 遵照辦理召喚通過一二七組結議 也是建議改文字專案改書面那就修正通過了"},{"start":28443.119,"end":28448.143,"text":"文字修正改為書面報告有文字修正我們就修正通過"},{"start":28470.999,"end":28495.028,"text":"責任通過137主席有文字修正建議有送資料在好 那就文字修正通過138主席遵照辦理好 責任通過139主席遵照辦理好 責任通過140主席遵照辦理責任通過141主席遵照辦理責任通過142主席遵照辦理好 責任通過143主席遵照辦理好 責任通過144主席遵照辦理好 責任通過145主席遵照辦理"},{"start":28498.169,"end":28498.369,"text":"文字修正通過"},{"start":28526.582,"end":28528.723,"text":"155主決議154主決議155主決議156主決議157主決議158主決議159主決議"},{"start":28553.473,"end":28556.236,"text":"就專案報告啦好不好沒問題啦怎麼樣就這個啦部長專案報告沒問題啦"},{"start":28580.522,"end":28601.329,"text":"今天早上已經有提到包括院 院跟交通部都支持所以不用提什麼專案報告就會支持所以支持喔那就提書面 改書面是吧那都結印了是吧律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲�"},{"start":28611.116,"end":28618.879,"text":"提出編報告本案就是組結議就通過文書修正通過接下來就交通部署官有關於161案161案並委員會結議辦理162案組結議有沒有人見"},{"start":28636.533,"end":28654.418,"text":"好 照案通過 163 主決議有文字修正 那沒人見修正通過再來是 164 凍結一千萬元 是不是並委員會決議辦理改主決議好 改主決議 改主決議 那沒人見通過 165 並委員會決議辦理 沒人見通過再來是 再來是 166 案"},{"start":28663.2,"end":28663.881,"text":"166 改組決議167 通案辦理168 測案169"},{"start":28678.724,"end":28681.945,"text":"171改組結議沒有見通過172改組結議沒有見通過173並委員結辦裡沒有見通過174並委員結辦裡沒有見通過175測案"},{"start":28699.281,"end":28702.003,"text":"176 凍結100萬年改組決議177 併文接辦禮178 併文接辦禮179 改組決議180凍結五分之一"},{"start":28725.299,"end":28726.78,"text":"國道7號臨時改那個路線所以很多居民那個"},{"start":28761.481,"end":28775.924,"text":"請問交通部這邊有研擬妥善的方案嗎180是民宿的案子不是知道我順便問一下國企這個案子已經有溝通過了180就是維持"},{"start":28786.192,"end":28786.452,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28811.344,"end":28828.191,"text":"國區的確在過程中因應工程需要做一些局部的調整這部分我們的高工局會跟地方政府討論過這樣的方案是正數比較少的方案會後再提供資料給委員長"},{"start":28832.133,"end":28832.233,"text":"主席"},{"start":28848.934,"end":28850.214,"text":"委員同意改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":28872.593,"end":28885.939,"text":"182182182案並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過183就撤案184就並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過185就改組結議,沒有意見通過186並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過187組結議,那照樣通過188組結議那個文字修改專案改書來組結議,文字修正通過"},{"start":28901.223,"end":28923.12,"text":"那189 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過190 組結議 照樣通過191 組結議 那有文字修改 那就修正通過192 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過193 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過接下來就194案"},{"start":28925.282,"end":28925.482,"text":"201凍結十分之一"},{"start":28954.076,"end":28980.662,"text":"順照辦理好 那就 召喚通 召喚通過啦齁好沒有沒有沒有 不願會沒有動動少一點嘛 這行政 行政之一無所謂可以啦基本行政會議用而已啦多少 哪裡哪裡 哪裡來 找人去啦那救黨部啊好好 那就那個5%好"},{"start":28985.009,"end":29008.968,"text":"206 齁"},{"start":29009.268,"end":29035.901,"text":"這是這樣齁就是說在最近的這一個竹科公司的員工旅遊齁那在南部發生重大車禍造成事實的這一個遊覽車的事故啦齁結果去年在公路局的這一個遊覽車的評鑑竟然拿到假等啦齁那事實上這個司機的超速的問題非常嚴重齁紀錄也非常多所以就這部分的話我現在"},{"start":29036.721,"end":29055.976,"text":"比較在意的是說你這個評鑑的項目非常的草率那日本的評鑑項目事實上是一目了然包括就是說當一個公司的承辦人他要去選擇遊覽公司的時候你只要點日本的網站那你就可以看到包括"},{"start":29056.957,"end":29057.657,"text":"那還好吧"},{"start":29081.368,"end":29092.333,"text":"邀請專家跟民間代表建立一個獨立的遊覽車安全評鑑認證制度強化安全資訊公開等等提出一個書面報告"},{"start":29097.554,"end":29101.657,"text":"206案 病人接一半禮 提書面報告207案 凍結一億 會輸病人接一半禮好不好"},{"start":29125.286,"end":29128.267,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29128.267,"end":29129.528,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29129.528,"end":29131.728,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29147.589,"end":29152.392,"text":"207跟208啦那你們不然就多動一點吧然後併在一起吧動結數一樣啦"},{"start":29175.748,"end":29198.322,"text":"董結束併委員會嘛,那報告另外一題嘛,這樣做個結議嘛因為委員會他已經凍結十分之一,就等於凍結八億多啦八億九啦委員會已經凍滿肚的沒關係啊,反正這因為是那個,就兩個都是一樣啦好不好,兩個併在一起凍五百啦,就這樣"},{"start":29200.319,"end":29202.08,"text":"請交通部還有公務局局長這邊盡快來協調一下好嗎"},{"start":29221.01,"end":29221.15,"text":"請他們盡快協調"},{"start":29238.297,"end":29240.578,"text":"這不要一直抹黑啦 柯董"},{"start":29264.221,"end":29286.691,"text":"這個人家講話的意思是插嘴本來就是應該要讓部長表示意見啊 人家是交通專家2100併委員接辦禮 沒有意見通過211那凍結5000萬元 我們就併委員接辦禮好不好他這邊已經先溝通就是200萬而已嘛 那就是凍200萬凍結200萬是吧 好"},{"start":29291.755,"end":29292.075,"text":"委員會見通告"},{"start":29305.482,"end":29326.168,"text":"213這個部分的話是希望說公總這邊針對這個客貨運業者那他的這個高峰業者要提出這個輔導改善的這個措施那這樣才是一個辦法基本上就是說你應該是有一個苛責機制調查輔導列管苛責機制等等之類的"},{"start":29330.157,"end":29339.14,"text":"那沒有關係啦 凍結束是要併委員會就好了嘛好 怎麼樣 併委員會啦那213 這個凍結束併委員會接一半禮入喔 免疫線通過 214214的部分就是說 這個隔熱紙的部分齁 那應該 這個國際標準早就已經存在這麼久了嘛"},{"start":29359.403,"end":29380.736,"text":"那公總一直到現在你還沒有去做納管那希望這公路局在兩個月內就格二指納管提出具體的檢測方法還有宣導期跟實施的期程你去一個順便報告好那這樣的話這個是要這"},{"start":29385.695,"end":29392.218,"text":"提書面報告,但是並委員結一半禮,如何?214並委員結一半禮,但是要提書面報告給提案人215並委員結一半禮,好不好?215是並委員結一半禮"},{"start":29411.852,"end":29412.032,"text":"結論就好了 講結論"},{"start":29441.37,"end":29444.972,"text":"這個就是2030的電動車,我們從113到119分7年,就是要把燃油車改成電動車我們現在就按照7年到119把它汰換完畢,就是公車的部分"},{"start":29460.644,"end":29469.911,"text":"現在進展怎麼樣最主要你要對預算他要凍結五分之一你有沒有意見好像你都沒有意見改組決議好不好改組決議改組決議凍少一點好不好請示範這樣要費用嗎好不好凍少一點"},{"start":29479.684,"end":29480.565,"text":"委員改為主決議員"},{"start":29505.158,"end":29505.779,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29528.393,"end":29529.414,"text":"文字有修正 黨團已經蓋章"},{"start":29558.957,"end":29559.28,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":29564.054,"end":29574.603,"text":"228 照案通過229 文字有修正 黨團也蓋章2230 文字有修正 黨團已經蓋章231 文字修正 黨團已經蓋章232 照案通過233 文字有修正 沒有意見就修正通過2331"},{"start":29590.711,"end":29590.851,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29619.275,"end":29622.096,"text":"234 通3 235 檢列100萬年 236 並委員會決議 237 主決議 238 建議文字修正"},{"start":29650.553,"end":29661.503,"text":"就修正,那就修正通過那239主席那也是一樣,建議文字修正那沒有意見修正通過,240主席我看一下啊好,修正的,修正的結束了"},{"start":29674.784,"end":29680.027,"text":"238暗記刪除,然後進度報告改進度書面報告239審議檢討後面加書面兩個字"},{"start":29700.39,"end":29701.29,"text":"239就這樣了240組協議有沒有見建議改書面報告"},{"start":29730.081,"end":29752.029,"text":"主決議文字修正提書面報告21黨團已經同意修正文字修正文字修正通過再來22遵照辦理詐騙通過就凍結十分之一23遵照辦理"},{"start":29758.797,"end":29769.785,"text":"同一個案子齁他就凍結凍結百分之二十喔病案凍結十分之一病案但是都要交報告是一定交好那就二十二二十三合併病案凍結百分之十這樣可以嗎"},{"start":29787.699,"end":29788.299,"text":"停一下 停一下"},{"start":29816.511,"end":29820.001,"text":"他說都要保留 所有部位都要保留 今天就這樣完"},{"start":29867.861,"end":29868.381,"text":"交通委員會結束"},{"start":29895.134,"end":29897.095,"text":"明天九點繼續開會就剩下兩個委員會"},{"start":29925.339,"end":29951.125,"text":"明天有兩個委員會 一個是司法及法處委員會 一個是社會福利及衛生環境委員會院長對不起 那個能不能再麻煩您一下就是我們有一些併委員會的決議的還有一些通商案 那因為我們有寫一些東西那是不是就是說這些案子雖然是併了委員會或者是通商 但是能宣告一下就是說他們也還是要把書面報告提給大家好不好"},{"start":29953.68,"end":29956.321,"text":"總裁會召集"},{"start":29994.617,"end":30000.721,"text":"所以院長明天是九點半嗎九點好就九點"},{"start":30004.324,"end":30005.224,"text":"副總裁副總裁"},{"start":30032.568,"end":30042.108,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30074.798,"end":30083.805,"text":"主席"},{"start":30101.878,"end":30121.836,"text":"院長剛剛就說這個農業部會有第二輪那是否也是明天一起是不是農業部說會有第二輪還是說會有第二輪那也是明天是不是"},{"start":30135.111,"end":30161.108,"text":"第二輪了解是是是好了解好OK好好好對好好的"},{"start":30178.716,"end":30200.683,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30231.781,"end":30233.902,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30252.897,"end":30253.137,"text":"蘇瑞發展部"},{"start":30264.218,"end":30282.447,"text":"事由發展部所屬的預算首先介紹列席的所長事由發展部唐鳳部長接下來我們就開始看26案並委員節辦理有意見嗎沒有意見通過247案通案辦理28並委員節辦理沒有意見通過249"},{"start":30292.748,"end":30293.248,"text":"徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億"},{"start":30331.969,"end":30351.315,"text":"249、266、269、270、274、276、280、285、293、362、325、330、331、336趕快去溝通吧有關你賴世保委員所提的案我們都暫時保留好不好那今天就先處理明天你再如果說有方便的話明天的溝通我們第二輪就把它處理掉好不好好來那249就是保留"},{"start":30353.642,"end":30355.023,"text":"251、252、253、254、255、256、257、258通案處理"},{"start":30382.662,"end":30412.183,"text":"二五九改凍結百分之三沒有見之通過二六零併委員會結一半離沒有見通過然後二六一是不是併委員會結一半離委員長等一下這很奇怪這個二五零你說併委員會是吧委員會是什麼委員是凍結委辦會十分之一委辦會這個都是通案嘛"},{"start":30422.784,"end":30436.868,"text":"他有檢列也有凍結啦檢列是國外營運會嘛對啊 那凍結 就是說我們這個凍結的數目齁就併在那裡面就在十分之一裡面啦 就包含在裡面"},{"start":30440.471,"end":30440.491,"text":"好來"},{"start":30469.558,"end":30472.325,"text":"我們就已經到261261凍結十分之一是不是併委員的接辦禮因為"},{"start":30478.47,"end":30484.175,"text":"通過262 十分之一 並委員會決議辦理263 並委員會決議辦理 沒見通過264 並委員會決議辦理 沒見通過264 改組決議 264 改組決議"},{"start":30500.709,"end":30504.41,"text":"265通3266通3我們就通案處理265改組決議265改組決議265改組決議266通3我們就通案處理267"},{"start":30529.81,"end":30530.27,"text":"前述檢列該組結議"},{"start":30545.141,"end":30560.428,"text":"委員是凍結,這邊是檢列就是昨天問的,今天我們收到行政院的文說核定有改組織,你要讓我知道一下因為你這裡都沒送,人家普通都會...市長今天核定了,這個就測案了嘛來,這樣,267組喔測案吧"},{"start":30573.988,"end":30574.749,"text":"268凍結1200萬元269減劣3000萬元270也是保留"},{"start":30601.28,"end":30605.048,"text":"明天是不是請他來一下好不好報告七一 稟委員接辦你沒有見通過"},{"start":30607.199,"end":30609.76,"text":"272 凍結十分之一 273 凍結百分之十 273 凍結百分之十"},{"start":30634.214,"end":30635.354,"text":"274 檢列500萬就是賴斯堡委員的 我們就保留"},{"start":30665.905,"end":30678.195,"text":"275、276通3我們就通案處理276已經保留賴司保委員的保留再來就是277凍結1億元這怎麼處理並委員會這是並委員會決議辦車案"},{"start":30693.618,"end":30719.394,"text":"好 報七八並委員會接辦你有沒有意見通過報七九 邱總召有檢列五千萬年及凍結十分之一來 要保留好不好 要檢列是太大的保留可以嗎 保留 保留是可以還好是正常同意來 報八零 檢列 這個保留 這個是保留"},{"start":30720.543,"end":30727.367,"text":"281 測案282 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過283 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過284 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過285 286 改組結議沒有意見通過287 凍結十分之三"},{"start":30747.622,"end":30759.791,"text":"那議會委員會已經凍結十分之一啦好那怎麼樣併委員會併委員會如何可以啊好那是併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過那288改組決議沒有意見通過289併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過那290併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過291改組決議沒有意見通過292"},{"start":30775.643,"end":30779.388,"text":"邱總召292保留293檢列也是保留在委員的294凍結十分之一並委員會"},{"start":30792.5,"end":30797.641,"text":"296 改組結議 沒有意見通過297 改組結議 沒有意見通過298 改組結議 沒有意見通過299 組結議 有沒有意見"},{"start":30819.124,"end":30819.324,"text":"暫停會議暫停會議"},{"start":30842.917,"end":30849.338,"text":"306 主決議 307 主決議 308 主決議 309 主決議 310 主決議有做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過311 主決議 311 有一個新修正的版本311 主決議要做文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":30870.177,"end":30881.181,"text":"在312的組結議有做文書修正沒有見就修正通過313組結議召喚通過314組結議有修正文書修改那文書修改就修正通過再來就是315來組結議那沒有見通過"},{"start":30897.725,"end":30905.63,"text":"316 併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過317 凍結十分之三 前面已經凍結兩千萬這個是賴司法委員的 我們就保留318 是不是併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過319 併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過320 改組結議 沒有見通過"},{"start":30928.38,"end":30945.13,"text":"3.2.1 凍結500 已經改了是吧3.2.1 已經改處決意 但沒有一件通過3.2.2 3.2.3 都是通商 就通案處理3.2.2 是類似保援 那這個要保留啦3.2.4 測案是吧"},{"start":30961.199,"end":30983.917,"text":"三二五跟三二六賴思寶委員的這兩案就保留賴思寶這通案我們要保留三二五三二六那是通三的啦前面也有賴思寶的通案"},{"start":30992.141,"end":31007.212,"text":"還有322也是一樣的所以賴氏堡委員如果碰到通商科目我看就先保留在第二輪做一個處理啦沒關係啦明天才叫他一定要來不然我們就自己處理不管他總統結果怎麼樣叫他自己來"},{"start":31017.64,"end":31021.402,"text":"明天先去溝通沒有溝通我們就來處理啦"},{"start":31044.375,"end":31053.177,"text":"改組結議改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":31072.248,"end":31074.71,"text":"兵委員會兵委員會兵委員會結議辦理333"},{"start":31089.008,"end":31108.753,"text":"跟主席報告333有跟委員辦公室有同意他大概就是覺得還是要刪一百萬然後科目自行調整刪一百萬元科目自行調整那沒有見通過334改組結議334已經改組結議沒有見通過335減六兩議 凍結一議"},{"start":31118.11,"end":31125.577,"text":"來組結議好了有沒有改這個跟偉茂是有說明他覺得併委員會動10%這樣子併委員會已經有動10%併委員會併委員會結議辦理就對了是併委員會結議辦理好來336這個是保留好來337改動5%說明改動5%"},{"start":31145.893,"end":31151.415,"text":"併委員會已經動10%了所以就是併委員會的模式併委員會接辦理"},{"start":31162.028,"end":31190.573,"text":"好 再 欸 完不完結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了"},{"start":31199.154,"end":31199.274,"text":"主席"},{"start":31225.63,"end":31233.957,"text":"我們是不是行政院所屬的先離開?好,來,請,你們可以先離開我怕他們想到事情要跟我說了來,四大黨團有什麼話現在要..."},{"start":31252.769,"end":31262.876,"text":"明天9點保留在世保保留才40萬沒有啦 要去溝通 溝通完我不會處理阿你沒有人保留 你怎麼處理 抱歉因為經濟他也保留很久沒有人去溝通 我怎麼處理"},{"start":31293.53,"end":31295.651,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":31313.618,"end":31319.929,"text":"好明天九點繼續開會今天的會議到此為時現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"149020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d65f283f6c67b2e0e5ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03226e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"11:34:16 - 11:43:39","影片長度":"00:09:23","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":563,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:43:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:34:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（11時34分）謝謝主席，主席，我請一下許部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好，我們今天討論勞工退休金條例，我在這邊有一個問題想要請問你個人的看法，大概有一部分人，因為現在勞工自提的退休金是不可以自選操作標的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["楊委員曜：部長在這個議題上，你的看法是覺得可以還是不可以？你比較傾向主張哪一個？現在是不行嘛？"],["許部長銘春：現在是不行……"],["楊委員曜：像私校退撫基金它大概已經可以了嘛？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫是有……"],["楊委員曜：對，那勞工退休金有關勞工自提的部分，部長個人的看法是覺得？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，如果是個人的看法，因為我覺得退休金是勞工老年退休生活的一個保障，我們都希望它是完整的、不會有風險的，然後能夠穩健的獲利，不會因為有風險而導致他的退休金最後可能會完全受到損害，所以在這種情況下，我其實會……因為如果是自選的話，他必須自擔風險，自提的部分如果自選，他必須自擔風險，我是會比較擔心勞工這一部分如果當遇到像去年股債同時下跌兩、三成的時候，其實對勞工的損害是滿大的。所以在這種情況下，我認為這個部分我目前都會比較保守一點啦！"],["楊委員曜：部長的看法倒是跟我一致，因為我覺得勞工自提退休金，看起來日後是必須要來填補勞保年金的給付不足，共同建構勞工退休以後的生活保障，可是這又遇到一個問題，就是自提的部分其實是屬於他的財產，對不對？限制勞工自行選擇投資標的，這個本身就跟財產所有有衝突。","第二個，最重要的就是剛剛部長講的如何穩健獲利，因為自提的退休金假如一直放著，獲利不足，其實它根本趕不上通貨膨脹，我相信這是個很大的問題，特別是在勞保年金給付沒有辦法增加的情況下，我個人一直很關注勞退的部分，所以剛剛部長有講到穩健獲利，我們怎麼讓它穩健獲利？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然這幾年勞動基金的投資收益都還不錯，平均大概都有4.6。"],["楊委員曜：4.6%。"],["許部長銘春：對，4.6%，我們也就是慎選投資標的，不管是自操或委外，其實在整個績效上都有做一些要求，就是務必要讓我們勞工的老本能夠有一個好的收益，這個部分我們當然會持續來努力。"],["楊委員曜：因為是委由你們來操作，有最低獲利擔保，對不對？就是兩年的定期……"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員，現在不管固提或自提，一定是保證獲利的，最少都有銀行2年定存利率的獲利保證，所以就是……現在當然是因為政府的限制，自提的部分沒有辦法去自選，但是我同時也保證他一定是獲利啦，就不會讓他的退休金短少。"],["楊委員曜：對，這個當然還需要做更深的研究跟廣泛的討論啦！因為我剛剛講過了，自提的部分其實還是勞工自己的錢嘛！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們勞動部態度上也是持開放的態度，傾聽各界的意見，但是我們基本上還是要站在保護勞工的立場。"],["楊委員曜：對，因為這個跟勞保給付其實是有相關聯的。","接下來，因為這次可能是本屆最後一次勞動部到委員會來，所以我還是必須要講一些數據，我一直覺得廣大勞工退休生活的保障其實是政府的責任，且再過幾年，問題馬上就會出現，我也知道改革的困難，因為勞工本來收入就低，要提高保費的話，阻力也大，而保費不增加，要怎麼提高、健全整個機制？這是政府要非常有智慧去面對，並且有勇氣去解決的。","我大概提供幾個數字給部長，就知道勞保年金的問題有多嚴重，像在澎湖這樣相對一般受薪階級薪資沒有那麼高的地方，其實我對於勞工的退休生活還滿憂心的。2022年勞工整體領到的給付大概是1萬8,294元，同一年臺北市最低生活費已經到了1萬8,682元，也就是說，勞工平均可以得到的年金給付，已經低於臺北市的最低生活費了，而且這種情況會隨著通貨膨脹越來越嚴重，有六成勞工年金給付低於2萬元。在這種情況下，我們還每天擔心勞保基金什麼時候會破產，這才是最大的問題。","部長，我想我在這一屆已經沒有能力也沒有機會可以幫廣大的勞工把這個問題處理好，但我還是希望至少將政府負擔最終給付責任的條文儘速入法，其實就算沒入法，還是長年在撥補，政府不大可能放任讓勞保倒；但入法的好處就是可以安定超過1,000萬勞工的心，讓他在工作時不用擔心退休後日子要怎麼過，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我們一起努力。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢。委員楊曜所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.81971875,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.40159375,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.67909375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.594093750000003,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.93971875,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.32909375,"end":38.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.13784375,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.10784375,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.81659375,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.900968750000004,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.21721875,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.790968750000005,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.18284375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.54784375,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.54721875,"end":76.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.00159375,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.46971875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.87034375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.38909375,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.91159375000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.86909375,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.29034375,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":105.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.66846875,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.53721875000001,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.25846875,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.13096875000001,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.21471875,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.61846875,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.76096875000002,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.91659375,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.66659375,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.41721875000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":154.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.74534375000002,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.63971875000001,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.76596875,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.99721875,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.74784375000002,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.64596875,"end":173.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.06284375,"end":174.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.32846875,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.45409375,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.10284375,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"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11:34:07","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":440,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:34:07+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:26:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時26分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，您好。我們時間有限，我想問一下部長您有出現在最新這一本所有臺灣的爸爸媽媽幾乎都會看的雜誌，不知道您自己有沒有印象？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就是有關友善家庭職場，我相信這個在勞動部的部分應該有非常多事情可以協助企業端、協助勞工端這邊做更多的改進。我想問一下部長，您在雜誌裡面提到各國勞動力人數的年增率是1.2%，其中在日本跟香港跟臺灣卻呈現負成長，關於這個缺工的問題或者是勞工本身在企業端工作的很多訴求，不知道部長您這邊在接受完這個雜誌的訪問之後，您認為友善家庭職場在勞動部這邊，如果您快速想到，您覺得您還能做些什麼事情協助勞工在勞動現場可以覺得更友善地被對待，然後也願意生養下一代？部長您覺得從勞動部的角度您可以做哪些事情？"],["許部長銘春：就是在職場能夠兼顧育兒，也就是在育兒環境這個部分還要再加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，那我就直接跟部長分享，在這個雜誌裡面，其實他們在3月份到5月份的時候先做了一個調查，年輕世代的爸爸媽媽對於自己到職場上實現自我的專長、實現自我的天份這件事情，其實大家對於工作是有些想像跟企圖心的，可是一旦把這個企圖心切回到職場現實的時候，部長，我先考您一下，您覺得年輕的爸媽他們在意職場的哪些因素，會讓他們更願意留在職場，或者是在職場實踐自我當中還願意生育下一代？您覺得年輕世代的爸媽在意什麼樣的事情？"],["許部長銘春：大概是在托兒部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，一個是托兒，那還有呢？"],["許部長銘春：還有就是可能希望更有彈性的能夠去兼顧家庭。"],["陳委員培瑜：彈性的兼顧家庭。還有呢？好，那沒關係，部長，我跟您報告，第一個是彈性工時，占65%的爸爸媽媽最在意有沒有辦法有彈性工時。第二個如同您說的，企業有沒有機會設置臨托或者是幼兒園。第三個是居家上班，也就是在疫情之後遠距工作的可能性。這三個比例是年輕世代的爸媽最在意的事情。可是我想要請部長看一下這個投影片的上端，其實大部分的父親跟母親都有想要工作的企圖心，你看喔，在兼職工作或是全職工作的比例都很高，對嗎？全職育兒的比例其實不高，也就是說，這個世代年輕的爸媽他們對於自己在職場上是有些想像的，可是勞動部有沒有機會提供這樣的職場環境給予勞工們？部長，您覺得呢？"],["許部長銘春：就是說可能有些職場可以提供彈性，有些職場可能比較不容易，我覺得我們應該先從可以提供彈性工時的這些職場鼓勵雇主能夠來落實。"],["陳委員培瑜：那勞動部的角度呢？我們來看一下，其實勞動部一直有一個工作生活平衡獎，也就是說勞動部在這個議題上並不是沒有作為，可是我們來看一下這個評審項目包含這些，關於生活平衡獎，勞動部的生活平衡獎裡面有一個彈性工作獎，可能是彈性工時或者是彈性工作地點，也就是說，其實勞動部可能在幾年前就意識到這個事情是重要的，或者是友善家庭的部分，勞動部在這個獎項裡面有一個單獨的項目叫做友善家庭。可是我們來看勞動部相關的獎勵、鼓勵措施當中，對於企業端實質上更積極的鼓勵或者是互動溝通，以往都是比較被動的，他就是被動接受企業的報名，報名之後他們得到的可能就是一個獎牌，然後有1萬塊的相關獎品，也不是獎金。我想要問一下，如果勞動部自己都已經辦了相關的獎項跟比賽，而且是每一年都做喔！不是只有做1、2年，其實勞動部在這件事情上是有一些想法跟態度的，可是可不可以更加積極去回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求，部長您自己的觀點怎麼看這件事情？"],["許部長銘春：其實我們辦這個獎項是讓這些算是幸福的企業有一些友善勞工的作為，能夠讓更多的企業來學習，以他們做一個標竿，所以獎牌、獎金是一個honer，但是沒辦法給他們很多的獎金。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果我們不談獎牌、獎金，部長您覺得在勞動部的角度還可以做更多什麼事情？我先提供一個數字，這也是勞動部對這個雜誌說的，勞動部統計臺灣受僱者在2020年平均年總工時為2,008個小時，在39個主要國家中排名第六，甚至我們高於南韓的1,904個小時，高於日本的1,626個小時，也就是說勞動部你們其實已經知道要做相關的事情，不管是透過鼓勵措施或是相關企業對話，可是可不可以更積極的回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求？","我再跟部長報告最後一個議題，其實今年諾貝爾獎的得主也提到了，女性並沒有真的想要離開職場，而是整個職場的環境不友善，讓年輕女性他們必須要離開；而且部長您在受訪裡面也提到，臺灣有一個很大量的離職潮是在30歲以後，部長您一定知道原因嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：30歲以後就是要開始步入家庭、照顧小孩，可是如果都落在女性身上，其實臺灣高學歷女性的比率跟他們在求學階段能力表現並不輸男性。部長您身為女性的部長，您自己怎麼看待這件事情？可不可以在勞動部內有更積極、更多的討論跟相關的規劃措施？不管是透過獎勵、透過更多跟職場的對話，讓勞工在現場真的可以感受到，而不是只有民間雜誌辦了這樣的票選，或者是像這樣的獎勵。但是勞動部可能在這個議題上，其實還不夠跟進民間的需求。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，這部分的確勞動部還要再有更積極的作為，這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論，因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位……"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["許部長銘春：我們會讓企業能夠發展更多友善的措施，然後政府會有一些鼓勵、獎勵讓他們願意來做，這個部分我會責成相關業務單位來……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們真的非常希望勞動部在後續可以做出更積極的事情，我相信部長你在這個雜誌受訪時，你的心裡面一定也是在意這個事情，而且你也願意認同這個價值。以上謝謝部長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.93659375,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.825968750000001,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.54159375,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.65534375,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.49471875,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.782843750000005,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.71659375,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.43721875,"end":73.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.09534375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.62221875,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.39409375000001,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.13596875,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.54909375000001,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.72596875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.16721875,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.61409375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.57596875000002,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.68471875,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.33846875,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.89909375000002,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.89846875,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.76221875000002,"end":190.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.15721875,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.65471875,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.98284375,"end":202.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.45909375000002,"end":208.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":210.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.10346875000002,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.48721875,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.57409375,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.79721875,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.87721875000003,"end":283.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.23971875,"end":287.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.22221875,"end":291.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.36096875000004,"end":292.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.60971875,"end":292.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.60534375000003,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.96346875,"end":297.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.02659375,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.85721875,"end":302.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":304.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.09721875,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.75909375000003,"end":363.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.61971875,"end":363.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.85596875000005,"end":380.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.96721875000003,"end":397.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.72409375,"end":398.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.50034375,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.68534375,"end":408.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.32159375000003,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.81909375000004,"end":413.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.88221875000005,"end":412.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.37971875000005,"end":416.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.82659375000003,"end":419.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.10034375000004,"end":421.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.70346875,"end":427.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":399.238,"end":425.368,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個部分的確勞動部還要再更有積極的作為那這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位那我們會來怎麼樣來讓企業能夠發展更多有效的措施然後政府又有一些鼓勵、獎勵來讓他們願意來做那這個部分我想我會來責成"},{"start":426.508,"end":428.089,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議"}]}},{"id":"149018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6b042a0f393a6d701ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:12:32 - 11:26:39","影片長度":"00:14:07","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":847,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:26:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:12:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時12分）請許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天還是想要跟勞動部討論關於工安的問題，你覺得我們臺灣的工安，目前的預警、預防做得怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：還要再加油啦！"],["洪委員申翰：還要再加油，是不是？部長，我們最近看到還是發生很多起嚴重的工安意外，我請部長看一下下面這幾則新聞。這是昨天發生在捷運信義線東延段施工的工安意外，目前有一名工人墜落命危；再下面一起，這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的工安意外，這個意外事件跟臺中中捷的事件很像，都是吊車斷裂掉落，這次砸在公車亭，但是這個事件還好，人跑得快，沒有被砸傷。部長，這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭的工安事故，其實現在擔心的不只是勞工，連附近的居民都很擔心，部長，你可以體會跟瞭解嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故，有鷹架或是這些起重機的吊臂突然掉下來，你走在附近，你會不會有點擔心？會嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["洪委員申翰：會喔，好。大家都很擔心，可是現在看到這麼多的新聞，我的辦公室也會接到民眾的電話，大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件，到底政府有沒有去檢查？檢查完以後有沒有改善？有沒有去罰？其實大家都在問這個問題喔。"],["許部長銘春：都有。"],["洪委員申翰：所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導，也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上，更擔心會不會發生就像臺中林淑雅老師的這個事件。部長，你會不會想預防這些悲劇？"],["許部長銘春：當然。"],["洪委員申翰：如果可以建立預警機制的話，你會不會想建立？"],["許部長銘春：當然要建立。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我相信你的回答是這樣。那現在臺灣的建築工地這麼多，勞動部可能也不一定有量能一一去進行勞檢，所以我自己覺得這裡面有一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單建立起來，甚至對外揭露可能很重要，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實我在去年4月曾經開了一場記者會，這場記者會的主題叫做「沒有死傷的工安事故就沒人管」，在這場記者會上面我有要求勞動部應該彙整並公開工安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄，在今年5月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部，當時勞動部的李俊俋次長也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統，把勞檢相關的處理紀錄放在這個系統中，可以供大家查詢，其核心的概念就是希望讓大家可以知道高風險的場域、高風險的職場、高風險的地方，。部長，我認為這個要求其實真的並不高，只要有發生意外，勞動部有去勞檢也做出處分，其實就讓大家知道相關的處分嘛！我們不是偷偷摸摸的處分，對不對？尤其是這個工安事件如果是火災、爆炸、化學品洩漏、鷹架倒塌、外牆倒塌，就算沒有死傷，但是這應該都是職安高風險的地方，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷，但是發生這種事情，也是高風險的地方啊！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊！就像剛才講的在公車亭的人，可能只是上面的人跑得快啊！部長，後來勞動部做了什麼？在我做了這個要求以後，部長知道勞動部後來做了什麼嗎？署長知不知道？"],["許部長銘春：我們有開會，署長可以說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：有找大家來討論。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，後來職安署創了一個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」，媒體有報導的才放上來，但是請部長看一下，從這些內容，其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡，也不知道是哪一個廠商，後續到底發生什麼或者有沒有改善什麼，我們在這個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」裡面都看不到。所以如果民眾看完之後回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面，因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點，所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件。我在這邊提醒勞動部一件事情，就是現在我們看到你們的這個系統，甚至是直接貼上來，把職災受害者的姓名直接公布出來，然後公布一年多了都沒有拿掉。部長，我們發現這個系統是該公布的沒公布，不該公布的卻把它公布在上面，已經一年多了，都沒有拿下來，反而是不該被揭露的受害者姓名被放在上面。部長，你覺得這個系統需不需要改善？"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個要改善，像這個系統做這樣的揭露，我覺得是很不OK的。我所理解的是他們在明年1月1日馬上會有一個系統上線，就是我們勞動部有一個違反勞動法令事業單位查詢系統，有關職安衛的部分會增加發生日期、發生地的欄位，到時候就是如果有發生職災，我們的檢查還有處分等部分都會在這邊揭露。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知不知道其實你們有開了一個研商會議，這個研商會議所公布的範圍限縮在職安法第三十七條第三項，也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡面，只有發生勞工死亡或重傷才要公布發生日期跟發生地點，我不清楚你知不知道這件事情，就是把它限縮了！所以我的意思是什麼？我更簡單地跟大家說，像我們現在已經發生的、已經去勞檢、裁罰的這個中捷事件，還有這次林口吊車吊臂斷裂的事件，按照現在職安法第三十七條第三項裡面，對不起，按照你們召開的研商會議的紀錄，都是不用公開的喔！因為裡面沒有勞工死亡，對不起，中捷事件死亡的是乘客林淑雅　老師，不是勞工死亡，所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容，像中捷事件，像剛才說的這個林口吊車吊臂斷裂事件，都是不用公開的喔！許部長，我們既然說要公開，為什麼不把事情給做到位？如果大家上去查發現，明明這麼嚴重的中捷事件，結果上面居然沒有紀錄，不用公開，民眾的感受是什麼？部長，你知不知道現在我們要公布的範圍被嚴重限縮，只有勞工死亡才要公開，所以中捷事故是不用公開的。"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得職安署要再整個檢討一下，這件事情委員也關心好幾次，我覺得我們要做就把它做好，該揭露就揭露啦！"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我知道職安署會說這是法規問題，我要說這件事情其實早在環境部還在環保署的時候，也就是它還是署的時候就都已經做到了，在他們的系統裡面，其實裁處的日期、裁處的公司名稱、違反的日期都一清二楚，我甚至都曾經建議過勞動部，你甚至都可以把……假如它有改善，你也可以把它放到網路上面，我也沒意見，它做不好的地方，我們公布，它後來有改善，以後的結果你也可以公布，我也都沒意見，不要讓這個廠商覺得好像犯錯一件事情，我就被貼標籤一輩子，你說我已經改善了，你們去查，它改善了，你要公布，我也沒意見，但把事情給揭露就是預警機制啊！這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來。我認為現在職安署不乾不脆，甚至自己限縮，為什麼環保署做得到的事情勞動部做不到？署長，為什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們職安法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露，我想或許明年職安法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來執行，我想這是我們會先處理的。至於委員這兩個月一直督導我們、push我們，非常感謝，因為揭露資訊，讓民眾有來查的空間，我們也認為是非常核心的重點。至於說是全部都揭露，我們有一些法規的部分，我個人覺得還是要有法規授權比較得當。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，對你這個說法我要挑戰，這是你們做的行政處分欸，你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的？你們是偷偷摸摸嗎？你們自己去勞檢有處罰，這是你們做的行政處分，為什麼不能揭露？只要把必要的個資資訊隱蔽起來，什麼地方不能揭露？你告訴我，這是你們的行政處分，我沒有要去公布他們的商業機密啊！你只要把個資隱蔽起來，為什麼不能揭露？你給我一個理由。署長，這跟法規授權……對不起，這是你們的行政處分欸，你們去勞檢以後，只是因為沒有勞工死亡，為什麼這樣就不能揭露？我聽不懂，我知道有法規授權更好，但我完全聽不懂，為什麼你們的行政處分不能讓社會知道，難道現在勞動部網站上所有公開的行政處分，都是有法規，都一條一條授權才可以嗎？我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道。"],["許部長銘春：委員，沒關係，我請職安署好好的把這件事情做好，相關如果是有牽涉到他們疑慮的法規範的部分，我會請法務司這邊來幫忙，我們務必要把預警的一些機制建立好。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我要提醒一件事情，之前我們在修職安法的時候，我們其實也討論過揭露的問題，當時職安署跟大家的說法都是說不要寫太細啦！結果現在不要寫太細變成你們不揭露的理由了。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，職安法是102年修的。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，我是說當時我們在討論相關事情的時候，我們都說我們不要寫太細，我現在的意思是說，署長，這些是可以揭露的事情，沒有不行，只是你要做或不做，我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞，有法規當然更好。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["洪委員申翰：但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像中捷這麼離譜的事情，居然在上面完全看不到，像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊臂的事情，大家看不到，我覺得這是大家沒辦法接受的事情。部長，大概多久時間可以把這個系統給處理好？不是只是推出一個系統來而已，而是把該公開的，而且是真正能夠達到預警效果的，我要求這件事已經要求很久，我不是要求為了公開而公開，我不是為了這個事情，我不是要求形式上面你給我一個交代，我們是希望有達到預警效果的，真正把高風險的地方可以公開出來。","我都說了，你要說它已經有改善，你把它改善的狀況也公開出來，我都不反對，你讓大家知道這個雇主或者是這個老闆他有做了努力，我也不反對，但現在不是啊！我覺得現在像擠牙膏一樣，一點、一點、一點，可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的效果啊！部長，你覺得多久時間可以把這事情給做好？"],["鄒署長子廉：金額的部分確實要請法務司來幫忙……"],["許部長銘春：講一個時間嘛。"],["鄒署長子廉：2個月我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：2個月是不是？好，部長、署長，2個月的時間好不好？我同意2個月的時間，但我們就把它做到位好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["洪委員申翰：不要再找理由牽拖了，我已經質詢很多次了，但每一次都是這樣擠牙膏一點、一點的，坦白說，我是很失望的，可以嗎？麻煩部長好好督導這個事情。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。有請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 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案。"},{"start":70.7,"end":97.567,"text":"這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉"},{"start":99.271,"end":122.426,"text":"連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁"},{"start":124.065,"end":152.816,"text":"我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件"},{"start":154.451,"end":166.499,"text":"不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣"},{"start":169.985,"end":185.266,"text":"現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意"},{"start":187.16,"end":215.289,"text":"在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統"},{"start":216.553,"end":219.514,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":235.458,"end":250.985,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":261.26,"end":283.398,"text":"沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息"},{"start":290.784,"end":308.616,"text":"將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到"},{"start":311.69,"end":338.501,"text":"所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔"},{"start":339.611,"end":358.525,"text":"所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善"},{"start":360.207,"end":371.614,"text":"議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前"},{"start":372.967,"end":398.473,"text":"在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個"},{"start":403.315,"end":430.727,"text":"處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的"},{"start":432.435,"end":459.955,"text":"已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡"},{"start":461.934,"end":484.233,"text":"所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸"},{"start":487.591,"end":512.527,"text":"明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得"},{"start":513.294,"end":520.86,"text":"這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了"},{"start":524.441,"end":551.627,"text":"我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見"},{"start":553.713,"end":570.527,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14"},{"start":573.169,"end":584.288,"text":"這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?"},{"start":589.123,"end":611.528,"text":"我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點"},{"start":612.188,"end":638.76,"text":"那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來"},{"start":642.753,"end":653.001,"text":"這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露"},{"start":672.574,"end":693.308,"text":"我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情"},{"start":701.718,"end":721.431,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第"},{"start":729.994,"end":748.803,"text":"報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好"},{"start":750.834,"end":761.926,"text":"但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長"},{"start":765.395,"end":768.417,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":796.797,"end":820.537,"text":"你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛"},{"start":823.753,"end":824.434,"text":"兩月我們要處理好了。"}]}},{"id":"149017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d63c5fcf9d8669f912ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"11:01:26 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11:12:24","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":658,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:12:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:01:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（11時1分）謝謝召委。主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["邱委員泰源：部長，有關今天的主題，我們都很關心勞工的福利，很多委員也都提了很多的見解，我想對於我們未來在修正不管是政策或規定等各方面應該有大的幫助，我都很願意跟大家一起來共同努力。有一些另外的主題可能我們以前也關心，現在我再請教一下。","我想勞動力的穩定還是未來臺灣要一直去注意的事情，這樣才能跟人比拚嘛！看起來勞動力來源問題的解決應該有四個方向啦，這個我們以前有討論過嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員泰源：第一個是生育率提高，這個還有在拚嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有，這個我們現在就是各部會努力啦，國家跟你一起養，希望能提高生育率。"],["邱委員泰源：好。第二個就是促進中高齡及高齡就業，這個等一下我再請教。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員泰源：再來是怎麼樣讓可能想要或者動機有沒有都可以的勞動人口來彌補我們現在職場上所需要的，第四個則是剛剛林為洲委員也有提到的擔心及各方面等等，這個我們都會謹慎來進行，我想這幾個方向是大家過去一直在討論跟努力的。","我們來看一下資料，資料顯示與其他國家相比，我們的退休平均年齡好像比較早，不曉得你們那邊有沒有相關統計？再回來工作的就業率好像也比較低，部長，你們從過去到現在這段時間的打拚有沒有碰到什麼困難？"],["許部長銘春：困難就是說，第一個我是覺得以雇主的刻板印象，對於中高齡、高齡的就業者，或者是二度就業的婦女，會認為他們在體力或各方面可能會不足，所以這個部分我們要花很多時間去做溝通，其實這些人都還是壯世代啦，希望大家能夠讓這些壯世代的人有工作的機會，我們現在覺得比較困難的是這個部分。至於其他在技能或專業上有不足的，這個倒是沒有問題，勞動部的職訓資源都會全力來幫忙。","另外，我們也有給雇主獎助、給勞工獎勵，希望他們能夠重返職場或續留職場，目的就是希望能夠讓整個中高齡、高齡者等壯世代的勞參率能夠提高。"],["邱委員泰源：好，其實以前為了長照的照顧，我們大概20年前曾經在雲林那邊推動，讓那些65歲、70歲等還沒有到75歲的退休者來照顧75歲以上的老人啦，不過那個時候是用志工的方式啦，也真的在媒介喔，很努力在媒介，後來可能也沒有延續，但這也是創造了一些模式啦，後續可能不一定有延續，但總是有創造一些模式出來。他山之石可以攻錯，我個人的感覺啦，聽說日本好像有滿多年紀比較大的人都出來做那種他們可能做得了的工作，甚至是在餐飲業的服務。"],["許部長銘春：對，服務業的部分。"],["邱委員泰源：當然可能很多人希望在餐飲業服務的人是比較年輕一點，但是有些餐飲我覺得只要有人來把它處理好就好了。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員泰源：這個部分我們能不能去瞭解一下日本是怎麼做的，或是其他國家是怎麼做的？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分當然就是說，可能傳統上他們就比較善用這些中高齡、高齡等銀髮族的人力啦，我們現在也在鼓勵雇主，看看是不是可以參考日本的經驗，因為我們現在勞動力短缺嘛，希望這些雇主能夠，畢竟中高齡、壯世代是一個很重要的勞動力來源啊，其實這些人的服務也會讓我們覺得比較有溫度、比較親切，所以我們現在也是鼓勵雇主來進用啦，也獎勵這些中高齡、高齡者進到像剛剛委員所講的餐飲業的服務職場，現在也有一些成果啦，譬如說有些新開的飯店，我們就會去幫它媒合，就是我們進場去幫它媒合這些中高齡或高齡者，讓他們在勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速地去獲得填補。"],["邱委員泰源：好，我想我們有在做，當然就要一直持續去檢討成果，看怎麼樣有精進的策略嘛，這可能要不斷的努力啦！"],["許部長銘春：對、對。"],["邱委員泰源：這樣才能改變文化，改變大家的心態嘛。當然在體能方面也是一個問題，但是這個部分我相信只要媒合適當的……"],["許部長銘春：體能部分當然沒有問題，我們也在跟雇主溝通，其實我們可以有專家進去幫它做職務再設計，讓整個流程更適合這些壯世代的工作者。再來就是我們有輔具，輔具的部分是只要聘用這些壯世代勞工，每人每年有10萬塊的輔具費用可以來補助，這個都可以減輕他們在工作上譬如說要搬重或者各種不便，這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓雇主知道。"],["邱委員泰源：我們以前在推這個計畫、法案的時候，當然我們也擔心這可能會搶到年輕人的位置，可是畢竟還是有很多人是不能陷在那個困境的，像沒錢的怎麼辦？很多啊，像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊，我想國家、政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊，但總是要創造它的價值，不能說就卡死在那裡，當然這可能要靠我們的智慧嘛，我想對於這個部分，很多政策不是不能做，而是怎麼把它做得好，這個部分可能……"],["許部長銘春：是，我們現在其實是整體缺工啦，所以不會有那種去搶青年人工作的問題。"],["邱委員泰源：部長，我請教你，你覺得我們現在的年輕人都跑去哪邊工作？好像很多行業都缺人力，年輕人都在家裡，還是他們家裡有錢都不用出來工作？你們有沒有去統計一下？"],["許部長銘春：其實很多都到服務業、批發零售業那邊去啦。"],["邱委員泰源：批發零售業？有需要那麼多人喔？你們有去瞭解現在的年輕人都跑去哪裡工作嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是，就是……"],["邱委員泰源：還是現在年輕人的心態是覺得沒關係，我們以前求個職業就是想要求穩定、能夠長久，是不是大家現在的心態因時代所趨及潮流而改變了？那我們也要跟著時代來考慮一下啊！"],["許部長銘春：是，那個……"],["邱委員泰源：不然我們政策走我們的，結果跟現代的年輕人沒辦法結合也是……"],["許部長銘春：大概有七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業啦，大概有七成的年輕人，畢業後或剛畢業的年輕人喜歡在服務業啦，但是我們現在其實也有投資青年就業方案，希望把它導向重點產業……"],["邱委員泰源：這個將來當然也可以從教育，如果覺得哪些從小時候就要來教育，其實也可以結合教育來處理，對文化的形成會比較好。"],["許部長銘春：對，也是，對對對，是。"],["邱委員泰源：看下一張，最近我們也開始關心女性國人，很多人因為小孩子稍微大了，會想說不知道哪裡可以有所發揮，不曉得勞動部對這個部分、這個主題的看法怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我們今年9月1號有一個婦女再就業計畫，為期3年的計畫，預計3年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力，這個計畫包括給女性，因為他可能離開職場一段時間了，他可以針對自己過去所具備的專業技能還需要再提升的，他可以提出自主訓練計畫，我們會給他獎勵；另外就是他如果重返職場穩定就業3個月，我們也會給他最高3萬元的獎勵，因為工時調整……"],["邱委員泰源：部長，有這個計畫嘛？"],["許部長銘春：有有有。"],["邱委員泰源：做的情況你再跟我講一下。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["邱委員泰源：我們可以後續再來追蹤好了，因為我後面還有主題……"],["許部長銘春：是是是。好。"],["邱委員泰源：接下來這也是醫療院所比較困擾的，醫療院所不一樣的是什麼呢？就是你來看病，我一定要先救你，把你收來住院，加護病房出來後還要住院，結果搞半天搞了一個月，把命救起來，哇，沒錢給付，這個部分勞動部有什麼看法？簡單講一下就好。"],["許部長銘春：這個部分我們未來會，這部分行政院跨部會已經有討論了，未來會有一些方向出來；另外，在勞動部這邊，我們未來就是會針對來源國的仲介，要求他要負連帶責任。"],["邱委員泰源：這個當然是一個方法，但是不一定是好方法，還是可以再討論，這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。"],["許部長銘春：好。OK。"],["邱委員泰源：針對這個問題大家共同再來思考，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。謝謝委員。"],["邱委員泰源：感謝大家。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝召委。下一位請洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.57909375,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.650343750000001,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.14721875,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.62284375,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.68971875,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.929718750000003,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.99034375,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.52159375,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.314718750000004,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.305968750000005,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.250968750000006,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.20784375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.237218750000004,"end":58.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.633468750000006,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":65.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.52284375,"end":68.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.00346875000001,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.42534375000001,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.28159375,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.31034375,"end":75.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.74909375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":99.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.55534375,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.46159375,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":116.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.05471875,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.13409375,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.68596875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.49596875,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.56284375,"end":137.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.10221875000002,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.16909375,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.57409375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.49346875,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.80471875,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.41159375,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.26534375,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.95721875,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.51784375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.95221875000001,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.57659375,"end":184.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.57596875000002,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.54596875000001,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.17034375,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.85346875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.84471875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.89034375,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.65784375,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.15471875,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.95596875,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.17534375000002,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.34721875000002,"end":217.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.30034375000002,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.47659375,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.06659375,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.10034375,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"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4,"end":313.841,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十"},{"start":322.303,"end":347.348,"text":"則是我們進場去幫那些中高齡或高齡者,讓他們在這個勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速的去獲得填補。我想我們有在做,那當然就一直檢討成果跟看怎麼樣有精進的策略。這可能要不斷的努力,才能改變文化。"},{"start":348.237,"end":350.959,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":373.453,"end":396.485,"text":"福具每年喔每個人每年齁你只要拼用這些壯士代勞工每人每年有十萬塊的福具的的費用齁可以來補助你那這個都可以減輕他們在工作上齁比如說要搬重啦齁或者各種不便的齁那這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓戶主知道我們以前在推這個計畫的時候齁那個法案的時候當然"},{"start":398.732,"end":418.835,"text":"我們也擔心說會去搶年輕人的位子,可是畢竟還是有很多人不能說現在那種困境,像沒錢了怎麼辦?很多啊,像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊。我想國家政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊。"},{"start":421.381,"end":446.938,"text":"總是要創造它的價值,不能就是卡死在那裡,當然來創造我們的智慧。我想這個部分,很多政策不是不能做,而是怎麼把它做得好。我們現在其實是整體的缺工,所以不會有說去搶青年人工作的問題。部長我請教你,你覺得我們現在有年輕人都跑去哪邊工作?"},{"start":448.387,"end":473.67,"text":"好像很多人都在缺人力,都在家裡,家裡有錢都不用出來工作,你們有沒有去統計一下?其實很多都到服務業批發零售那邊去啦,批發零售業。批發零售業,有需要那麼多人喔?原來了解年輕人都早就在做行為。"},{"start":476.317,"end":479.558,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":495.995,"end":505.45,"text":"現在的年輕人沒辦法結合我們大概七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業我們大概有七成的年輕人畢業以後的年輕人喜歡在服務業"},{"start":509.96,"end":510.28,"text":"二、委員李姓格倫"},{"start":535.014,"end":549.808,"text":"那個...很多人都...他小孩子也長...也稍微大了齁...想說不然退休可以發揮一下這樣齁...啊這個部分不曉得我們勞動部這個部分對這個主題的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":550.601,"end":569.017,"text":"對,我們現在有一個,我們今天9月1號就是有一個婦女再就業計劃,三年的計劃,預計是說大概三年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力,那這個計劃包括說給這個女性,因為她可能離開職場一段時間了,那她可以"},{"start":570.378,"end":586.753,"text":"對自己過去具備的專業技能還需要再提升的他可以提出自主訓練計畫我們會給他獎勵另外就是說他如果重返職場穩定就業三個月我們也會給他最高三萬元的獎勵"},{"start":587.634,"end":596.821,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":617.395,"end":620.596,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":640.362,"end":655.436,"text":"這個當然是一個方法,但是不一定是好方法,還是可以再討論。那這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。當然在針對這個問題大家共同再來思考。好不好?好,感謝大家。好,謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"149016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6c2fa5df3bc615cbdab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03224763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"10:50:21 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11:01:17","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":656,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:01:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:50:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（10時50分）謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員為洲：今天我們要審查勞工退休金條例，其中有七個案子要推動新制勞工退休金自選投資。請問部長，你覺得勞工退休金投資最重要的目的是什麼？賺錢？還是獲利，好讓勞工退休金將來可以增加更多？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，投資的第一個一定要安全保本……"],["林委員為洲：安全更重要。"],["許部長銘春：然後穩健，當然想自選就是希望能夠多賺一點投資收益，這些都是自選所希望達到的。"],["林委員為洲：其他的退休金基金有沒有自選制度？比如說公教人員……"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫。"],["林委員為洲：私校退撫？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫及公務員退撫新制……"],["林委員為洲：都有自選？"],["許部長銘春：但是規模很小。我記得私校退撫才700億左右而已，至於勞退現在應該有3兆……"],["林委員為洲：是……"],["許部長銘春：4.9兆。"],["林委員為洲：退休金最主要的目的，以我個人的理解，就是平常工作的時候有收入，等到退休之後沒有收入了，等於在平常儲備了一些將來……"],["許部長銘春：就是個儲蓄……"],["林委員為洲：養老本，養老的本。因為那時候你可能沒有辦法工作，沒有其他收入，所以才希望有這樣的制度可以養老，但如果捨本逐末，把它拿來預支當作投資工具，萬一輸掉的話，就連養老本都沒了，這樣就跟我們設定退休金的目的不太一樣。你可以拿現在多餘的收入、生活之外的錢去投資增加收入，這個OK，因為生活有多餘；但退休金是將來沒有辦法工作了，沒有其他收入了，要靠退休金養老，不造成其他家人的負擔、國家的負擔。一旦捨本逐末，我認為捨本逐末去預支將來的退休金，然後來操作以賺取更多的利潤，這有一點違背。以我的立場，我是這樣看待，就是你剛剛講的，它有風險，而不是完全沒風險，否則拿來增加收益的話當然好，對不對？但這是有風險的，可能會輸，所以針對這次要訂定自選條例的修法……"],["許部長銘春：這幾年有很多聲音希望能夠自提自選，也就是針對自提部分能夠自選，但我們認為勞退其實是屬於社會保險的角色……"],["林委員為洲：是啊，當然。"],["許部長銘春：就像剛剛委員講的，這是退休之後經濟生活安全的依靠……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：自提自選就一定要自擔風險，畢竟是他自選，所以這一塊我們會很擔心。雖然勞工說願意自擔風險，但是當你面對像去年金融市場整個股債都下跌的情況下，勞工承受得了嗎？"],["林委員為洲：對，是啊！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們才說還是要多多考量，畢竟勞退還是社會保險的角色，它不是商業保險……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：比較屬於純投資的事情。"],["林委員為洲：當然，它不是理財投資！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員為洲：退休金不是撥了一筆錢讓你理財投資，當初訂定的目的不是這樣！"],["許部長銘春：至於政府的投資，不管怎麼樣，一定會保證收益……"],["林委員為洲：是。"],["許部長銘春：到最後再怎麼樣，一定是政府……"],["林委員為洲：會承擔。"],["許部長銘春：會承擔，而且不低於2年期銀行定存利率的獲利給你，事實上，這幾年的投資，我們平均獲益大概是4.6%左右啦，所以對勞工來講，其實是還不錯。但我是比較擔心，如果自選之後，雖然現在是說自擔風險，大家都會說「沒關係，我可以自擔風險」，但是當真的萬一發生這個……"],["林委員為洲：又怪你們了。"],["許部長銘春：對，他們會說「當初都是政府的草案，然後立法院立法委員通過的」……"],["林委員為洲：修法開放。"],["許部長銘春：或說「當初的制度是你們幫我決定的」，我是覺得勞工還是比較辛苦的一群，有時候這件事情我會覺得說，雖然我們抱持著開放的態度，但還是要多聽各界的聲音啦。"],["林委員為洲：所以針對這個修法，我覺得應該要慎重、慎重，然後要多聽一些意見，甚至召開公聽會等等，然後也要比較其他的退撫基金目前的投資狀況，把他們的制度拿來互相做比較，看看有沒有改善的辦法，就是說，無非是想要增加投資的效益，讓大家到最後的退休金可以多一點，對不對？不然去投資做什麼，就是希望有效益嘛，有額外的投資效益。如果不用這種方式，然後去改善原來的制度，讓它的投資效益更能夠顯現或提高，而且確保那個風險，因為剛剛部長也講了，如果照現在的制度，政府是會擔當一定的保證收益的角色，這個安全性已經保障了，但是如何讓它有更高的收益，恐怕是更好的、更穩健的辦法。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們會努力啦。"],["林委員為洲：好，這個問題我們之後還會繼續討論啦，我想今天可能也不會很快的就進入逐條啦。","再來，我再請教關於開放服務業外勞的狀況，目前開放服務業外勞有什麼進度嗎？服務業的部分。"],["許部長銘春：目前還沒有，報告委員，因為之前那個……"],["林委員為洲：政策研擬到什麼階段了？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，這個部分就是觀光署有送評估報告過來，但是我們針對各界所質疑的，第一個，這個薪資條件是不是合理，還有就是是不是有挑工的問題，以及會不會衝擊到中高齡婦女就業等等問題。他們認為它的評估報告還有不足，我們還在等它的補充。另外，就是委員會這邊有要求我們，洪申翰委員有要求我們，要在12月底之前，要就整個開放，如果要開放服務業移工，對我們的族群、對我們的性別就業的影響評估。這個部分我們大概是這樣，目前還沒有說什麼時候要來討論，但是我們會等觀光署把它的補充評估報告送來，併同我們勞動部所做的這些就業影響評估報告，我們再來請專家開會做檢視，檢視之後我們才會適時地去提到我們的政策小組來評估、來討論。"],["林委員為洲：今天早上我們看到那個新聞，就是說擁有241間房間的嘉義觀止飯店，業者徵工務人員，工務技工、修繕工程師，俗稱工務技工，要會修水電，而且最好具有消防執照，但是他給的薪水是多少呢？"],["許部長銘春：2萬6,000。"],["林委員為洲：2萬6,000。"],["許部長銘春：這個新聞我有看到，非常不合理啦，非常不合理！"],["林委員為洲：他有執照耶，這樣才2萬6,000而已。"],["許部長銘春：是啊。"],["林委員為洲：你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["許部長銘春：非常不合理。"],["林委員為洲：這樣請得到人嗎？所以他請不到人嘛！他們如果希望開放外勞進口，就是開放移工進來，當然移工願意接受這個薪資，但本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資，所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突。一旦開放之後，那個行業就會變成都是外籍移工，本勞就進不去了，大家要想像一下，因為2萬6就請得到了，2萬6,400啊，我請到技工耶，還會修水電耶，本勞沒有人會做啦，老實講，那個行業開放了，將來就統統是外勞了！我現在先假設說如果連計程車都開放，我看以後開計程車的統統都是外勞，還只要基本薪資；外送員如果開放了，我看以後外送也統統都是外勞在做，就是移工在做啦，本國勞工怎麼辦？所以這個都是要整體去考量啦。"],["許部長銘春：對，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：我們看到很多行業都是開放了外勞之後，本勞就很難進入那個行業，這個會衍生其他問題啦。當然對雇主來講，他會有外勞的選擇、外籍移工的選擇，但是以勞工的角度來看的話，很多領域就變成本勞進不去了，所以這個都要整體考量啦！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員為洲：包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工，這個大家都要好好的來討論，它衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員為洲：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。請邱泰源委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.10471875,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.64471875,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.21409375,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.01096875,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.517218750000005,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.00596875,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.862218750000004,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.127218750000004,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.38346875,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.53909375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.85909375,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.83784375,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.85471875,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.28909375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.28471875000001,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.09471875,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.92971875,"end":81.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.09846875000001,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.19534375,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.43159375,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.75971875,"end":91.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.33721875,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.73346875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.66159375000001,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.51284375,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.10971875000001,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.66846875000002,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":167.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.37596875,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.76159375,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.70159375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.29221875000002,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.30346875,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.84346875,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.64846875,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.85659375,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.12221875,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.54221875000002,"end":242.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.36034375000003,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.9253437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上我們看到那個新聞就是說嘉義關子這個飯店業者兩百四十一間房間徵公務"},{"start":507.858,"end":515.504,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":524.757,"end":525.138,"text":"兩萬六兩萬六這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":545.42,"end":572.786,"text":"他們如果希望說開放外勞進口就移工讓他進來當然他們願意移工願意接受這個薪資本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突一旦開放之後那個行業就會變成都是移工外籍移工本勞就進不去"},{"start":573.973,"end":601.835,"text":"大家想像一下,兩萬六我就請得到,兩萬六千四我請到技工,還有修水電,本來沒有人會做啦,老實講。那個行業開放了,那就將來通通是外勞了。假設,我現在先假設說,如果連計程車開放,我看以後通通計程車都是外勞,那只要基本薪資。外送員如果開放了,他外送我看以後通通是外勞在做。"},{"start":603.257,"end":616.95,"text":"就移工在座了本國勞工怎麼辦所以這個都是要整體去考量我們看到很多的行業都是開放了外勞之後"},{"start":617.642,"end":623.026,"text":"立法院第10會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":637.529,"end":650.838,"text":"所以這個都要整體考量包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工這個都要好好的大家來討論他衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d690f85f163cb4c58bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322b67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王婉諭","委員發言時間":"10:39:15 - 10:50:15","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":660,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:50:15+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:39:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":566,"blocks":[["王委員婉諭：（10時39分）主席有請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員婉諭：部長你好。我們知道過去勞退舊制的情況之下，勞工需要在同一個事業單位，累積一定的年資才符合請領退休金的條件。如果他工作被解僱或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資，又或者也曾經出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等，造成勞工無法請領退休金。我們看到勞退新制從2005年上路之後，的確解決了這個問題，我想不可諱言，這個部分也應該給予肯定。勞退新制是採用個人帳戶制之下，讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資，可是我們也看到在勞退新制上路之後，大家一直在反映的是、我們勞工團體一直在訴求的是，政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退新制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金，可是沒有說的是，這樣子的退休金其實是大打折扣的。我們以2021年勞工薪資中位數大約51萬來計算他的年資以及退休金，如果是以勞退舊制來計算，加起來總共大概是191萬元的勞退退休金，但是以勞退新制雇主提撥6%的比率來說，就只有91萬，所以在這樣的情況之下，很明顯的是，如果我們希望能夠保障他們請領的退休金是一樣的情況之下，回推回去後，雇主的提撥比率應該要高達12.5%。","我想這個部長一定很清楚，勞工團體們一直在訴求的是，我們希望能夠提高雇主的提撥比率，當然我也知道，部長一直在講這個6%是最低的部分，其實是可以透過勞資協議來增加，但是我們也看到相較之下，在今（2023）年7月公務人員退撫新制上路之後，強制提撥15%，其中政府的負擔是65%，換算過來雇主的提撥率高達9.75%，我覺得這就是再次地打臉勞工朋友。","我們也看到的確這個6%是最低的部分，可以透過勞資協議來提升，不過，我們也要跟部長來做一個提醒和回憶，就是在今年7月的時候，中華電信工會也發起了調高勞退雇主提撥比率的遊行，中華電信工會那時候就有提到，其實他們已經很多次向公司反映應該要提升提撥率，以彌平新舊制制度上的落差，但是公司的回應是要回去再研究，而實際上研究之後，最終中華電信公司也跳票了，它表示說，提撥比率涉及了政府的修法，所以不願意調整。","我想跟部長報告的是，即便這6%是最低，但是包括中華電信工會，它相對來說是比較大的工會，它跟雇主做協商都是這樣的情況了，都是完全沒有辦法提升，而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的，要調升其實是需要政府來做修法，更遑論其他的雇主以及其他的勞工朋友們，根本很難達到這樣的比率，所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚，當時其實你也曾經承諾，而且當時6月蔡英文總統在參加全國工會會員代表大會的時候也提到，這部分會持續地來做溝通。","所以我們其實有二個問題想要請部長來做說明，第一個，這個6%的比率，到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%？還有，在高於6%提撥率的情況之下，有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，目前雇主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位，占比大概0.61%。"],["王委員婉諭：是，所以非常少，連1%都不到，尤其是剛剛提的中華電信工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子，即便像他們是比較嚴謹、比較大的工會，即便是中華電信，都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。"],["許部長銘春：我們法規定最低、至少是6%，其實是可以再增加……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！但是實際上再增加的比率非常低啊！"],["許部長銘春：當然有些時候事業單位、雇主他可能會考慮到他所增加的一些……"],["王委員婉諭：當然，這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求這個6%應該要往上提升。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個部分其實也變成一個比較困難的地方，如果以整體來講，如果我們提高1%，一年的整個法定成本，就是雇主的法定成本，大概就是增加將近390億，所以這件事情當然要去……"],["王委員婉諭：我想勞工朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平或是覺得很受到委屈的是，我們新舊制比起來真的是差非常的多；第二個部分，剛剛提到像公務人員退撫新制上路之後，其實算起來也是在9.75%，當然我們很希望臺灣能夠慢慢發展成勞資的權利、地位可以更加平等，透過勞資協商來推進，可是實務上，部長您剛剛提的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來，不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲、多麼希望透過勞資協議來做處理，可是實際上的發生率不到1%，即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會，都沒有辦法讓他們的雇主能夠願意承擔，甚至雇主還表示這必須要透過修法，難道我們的修法不應該更加保障勞工朋友的權益嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，的確，這個部分當然法律這樣的明定，要鼓勵他們自己願意提升，雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：難上加難啦，我想大家不用昧著良心說話啦，真的是難上加難啦，部長不會不知道。"],["許部長銘春：我瞭解，但就是我們現在要修法，當然這就是一個制度的變革，我是覺得這牽涉到雙方的權益，當然，我們會願意再跟大家來開會、溝通……"],["王委員婉諭：好，接下來請教，其實當時也說實際上對於這個6%要提升，蔡英文總統也曾經承諾過勞動部會來繼續努力和溝通。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員婉諭：我們也想請教一下，從6月蔡英文總統承諾要來做溝通到現在，我們做了哪些部分？又研議的方向如何？以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分喔，其實我們……"],["王委員婉諭：這個溝通，我說的是要真正溝通，不是說嘴巴上溝通而已。"],["許部長銘春：是，但說實在這件事情當然不是那麼容易啦，因為這是要說服……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！所以我們一定要看到實際上做了哪些事情，從6月到現在進行了哪些溝通？又跟哪些單位做了溝通？"],["許部長銘春：我們其實透過這個團體協約的部分，就是鼓勵大家能夠明文約定提高，這部分也有一些效果，然後讓那些……"],["王委員婉諭：部長，我覺得我們就先不講這個勞資協議或團體協議，你知道這有多困難，我相信部長不會不知道，所以我想請教的是要朝著我們法定做提高的部分，當時6月就承諾過會來善盡溝通，以及評估這樣的可能性，我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通了哪些事情？還是就是沒有回答，意思就是沒有溝通？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的溝通方式是多元的，或許不是一個正式召開的會議叫勞資雙方都來，而是在各種場合去跟他們做說明，希望雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：其實就是跟沒有講一樣嘛！就是一直在宣示，希望大家可以來努力，但就是沒有努力。","好，沒關係，那我們下一個題目。我們看到最近3名總統候選人，包括我們的賴清德，還有侯友宜以及柯文哲等3位候選人都有提到應該要來調整法律的命令，包括說如果雇主願意來提高提撥的部分，或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制，或是減稅的機制來提高他們提高撥補的可能性，所以我們想請教對於這個方向，部長有沒有一個想法？或者是如何能夠來支持？又或者是不支持這樣的方向？因為剛才提到，如果法定要提高6%一直說要溝通，但是卻完全提不出具體溝通了什麼，那在我們希望雇主主動提高提撥率，我們又如何來鼓勵雇主來提高？不要再說要透過勞資協議了，因為部長你的數據已經打臉你們自己說的，透過勞資協議可以來提高的，實際上不到1%，上路了18年，卻不到1%，我相信這個勞資協議真的非常困難。"],["許部長銘春：當然希望這些雇主他們能夠接受提高強制提撥率，而這個部分當然也要有一些誘因，那這些誘因可能就必須大家跨部會來做討論，因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅負的問題，這個部分我們後續願意跟相關的部會大家一起來……"],["王委員婉諭：什麼時候我們可以看得到方向？我想當然第一個是透過法規修訂來提高它的強制力，第二個是用鼓勵的方式提高誘因，讓他們願意來進行，這兩個部分我覺得都必須要處理。那第一個部分，從蔡總統6月承諾到現在並沒有進行什麼具體的溝通，第二部分是，如果朝著鼓勵的方式，我們什麼時候會有一個比較明確溝通的結果，或是溝通的方向？我想大家都希望朝這個目標，不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到，而是真的要有進程，做了些什麼，至少可以告訴大家，我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的，就是在於我們完全看不到路徑，不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到，更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡。我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦，剛才的數據也很明顯的呈現出要靠勞資協議，其實是非常、非常、非常、非常的困難，即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的。部長，所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到，因為不論是強制又或者是鼓勵，我們都要有清楚的路徑，又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力了吧！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我會責由業務單位來做一個規劃，就是說我們就這個議題的部分，我們有個具體的規劃，就是在……"],["王委員婉諭：兩個部分都做具體的規劃，1個月內給我們方便嗎？一個是能不能朝這6%的部分在法規面上來提升？第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分，該如何來做處理？我還是要再次強調，勞工朋友都在講「6%不夠花，老後被打趴！」我想6%這個部分是大家長期以來的訴求，希望能夠提升，不論是用修法又或者是退而求其次，政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力，我覺得這些都應該要具體來面對，不要講了10幾年說要透過勞資協議、透過團體協約可以做，從實際上的數據就可以知道，這就是完全非常困難的一件事情，不應該把這樣的責任放任說讓勞工朋友自己去爭取，我覺得勞動部絕對有責任，也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益，希望部長能夠在一個月內，把這兩項未來會規劃和討論的方式告訴我們，並向大家做一個報告和說明。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員婉諭：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。有請林為洲林委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.6172187500000001,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.08096875,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.62034375,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.34346875,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.76534375,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.85346875000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.80596875,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.09659375,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.91846875000002,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.90034375000002,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.94221875000002,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.68846875000003,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.46846875000003,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.43846875000003,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.02846875,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.04534375000003,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.18034375,"end":259.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.33221875000004,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.43346875000003,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.80471875,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.85534375000003,"end":259.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.93971875,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.97346875,"end":260.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.02409375,"end":260.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.59784375000004,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.23909375,"end":268.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.94784375,"end":262.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.54596875000004,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.44034375,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.89471875000004,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.64534375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.20221875000004,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.21909375,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.97846875,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.01284375,"end":333.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.76784375,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.97409375,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.45471875000004,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.12096875000003,"end":353.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.26409375000003,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.63096875,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.78284375000004,"end":345.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.05284375,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.52846875,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.42096875000004,"end":385.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.46284375000005,"end":369.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.51909375,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.97846875000005,"end":392.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.69534375,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.43784375,"end":399.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.24721875,"end":403.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.84971875,"end":407.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.86596875000004,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.26221875000005,"end":412.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.19846875,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.83096875,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.97346875000005,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.89471875000004,"end":440.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.46846875000006,"end":446.94846875},{"speaker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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":74.088,"end":98.403,"text":"僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講"},{"start":99.523,"end":122.017,"text":"這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說"},{"start":122.677,"end":137.755,"text":"的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行"},{"start":138.456,"end":141.238,"text":"而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整"},{"start":161.331,"end":184.814,"text":"所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦"},{"start":186.235,"end":211.466,"text":"所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的"},{"start":214.806,"end":240.315,"text":"報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他"},{"start":244.016,"end":267.413,"text":"其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年"},{"start":269.494,"end":270.877,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":278.164,"end":302.972,"text":"所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來"},{"start":307.773,"end":330.993,"text":"不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":332.102,"end":338.851,"text":"是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們"},{"start":339.788,"end":345.273,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":365.532,"end":369.675,"text":"參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標"},{"start":386.57,"end":387.55,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具"},{"start":407.918,"end":410.92,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":430.549,"end":455.434,"text":"當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用"},{"start":455.734,"end":460.958,"text":"三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?"},{"start":485.674,"end":486.194,"text":"當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說"},{"start":515.627,"end":526.594,"text":"提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們"},{"start":530.976,"end":533.458,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":557.065,"end":581.392,"text":"我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難"},{"start":583.132,"end":597.438,"text":"即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧"},{"start":599.504,"end":622.501,"text":"我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴"},{"start":622.901,"end":645.232,"text":"我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部"},{"start":647.194,"end":658.929,"text":"絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"149014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d69c8bf67ea789b2fbab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:29:37 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10:39:08","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":571,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:39:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:29:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時29分）謝謝，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天討論有關勞動退休金的問題，其實我們看到一份報告，就是在人力資源顧問的評比當中，臺灣排名第39，可能我們從上面看到確實臺灣的退休金制度是不是存在一些問題？剛剛也有很多委員特別提到有關退休金提撥的問題，我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中一直往上調，到明年開始已經到二萬七千多，像這樣子的話，我們勞保投保薪資的上限在105年也調到4萬5,800，有沒有可能勞保投保薪資的上限會再往上調？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我先講剛剛你講的CFA的報告，其實這個報告的評比面向很廣，因為每個國家的養老金制度不同，所以很難直接比較啦！但是因為這個不是單純評估像我們職業勞工他退休以後的退休金狀況，它評比的面向我看很廣，包括基礎年金、公共年金、私人退休金計算，還有持有房產、債務，全部都在裡面，所以我認為這個很難去做比較。但是我是認為我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工退休經濟生活的安全，我們現在其實就是兩個，勞保加勞退，以目前我們工作30年，現在平均投保薪資大概在3萬7,000左右，其實退休以後所領的所得替代率大概在68%，並不會低於OECD啦！不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考，這是第一個。","第二個就是那個4萬5,800的天花板是不是要打開？這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個勞保的財務問題，報告委員，你也知道我們勞保106年就已經開始發生逆差、缺口，所以我覺得不排除在未來整個年金改革裡面可以來討論這一題，但是沒有辦法單純現在就只針對這個問題去打開，因為這樣會牽涉到我們整個勞保財務，會更加雪上加霜。"],["黃委員秀芳：我一直想要講的就是我們勞保的投保薪資在105年提高到4萬5,800，我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調，那相對地投保薪資是不是也要再往上？我認為應該是這樣子才合理啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，我也認為應該是這樣，你看我們的職災保險就提高到7萬2,800了，這個已經cover到大概有九成勞工都可以適用得到，我是覺得這一題未來可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論，不然我現在只要單提高一級，就是1,500億的負擔，所以我才說這件事情要檢討，但是不是現在，就是要整體……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所以就是要去討論啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，未來要討論啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得未來應該要去討論才合理，就是最低薪資我們都已經這樣子往上調了，所以投保薪資上限應該也要再往上。"],["許部長銘春：對，一定要的，這是未來一定要調，但是我們現在有一些考量，勞保的財務要先解決。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛也有很多委員提到我們自提6%的這個部分，是不是可以自己選擇投資的標的？我也希望是不是有這樣的一個方式，有的人他也想要透過這樣去選擇，我不知道你們有沒有去考慮？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見，但是現在的狀況就是還是有些勞團比較擔心，這畢竟是退休老本，你要自擔風險這件事情，萬一有譬如像去年整個金融市場跌了兩、三成，這個對勞工都是很大的衝擊啦！當然我們再多多聽各界的意見，勞工也有專業的理財觀念之後，大家能夠更理性的來看這個問題、來討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，接下來我想請教有關中高齡的就業，有很多高齡或者是中高齡的民眾，其實他們也很想二度就業，找的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作，他們有的確實是因為經濟的壓力急需一份工作，可是他們去應徵的時候會碰到也許是年齡的關係，或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合，也許他還有長輩需要照顧，所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合。我也看到你們有提出一個針對補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的措施，我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好，執行率不是那麼理想，但確實地方有這樣的一個需求，我不知道未來你們執行率不是那麼好要怎麼去改進？"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，因為我們這些中高齡去找工作，常常會遇到一個問題，就是雇主的刻板印象啦！還有會覺得好像他年紀比較大一點，是不是體力沒辦法負擔，再來他有時候要兼顧家庭，所以現在我們這些計畫其實就是希望鼓勵雇主要進用，然後我們用怎麼樣的獎勵給他。另外我們也鼓勵雇主，其實針對這些中高齡，你可以用一些彈性工時，讓他職場工作跟家庭能夠兼顧，畢竟在缺工的年代，他還是我們的勞動力。其實中高齡、高齡者是一個很重要勞動力來源，所以我一直是希望我們的雇主可以善用我們的中高齡，其實我都說要講「壯世代」啦！以年齡來講，像我也是中高齡，45歲到64歲都中高齡啦，但是我覺得我們的體力、能力都還可以負擔，所以我覺得不要排斥這些壯世代，但是可能要給他一些工作的彈性，讓他能夠兼顧，這個我們都有一些相關的措施。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這個據點你們未來還要補助、還要持續嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會，會繼續，我們會弄到50處。"],["黃委員秀芳：對啊！問題是執行率不是那麼好，你們怎麼去改善？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這是剛開始啦，我們會陸續執行，因為這些事情會需要一些時間，我覺得依目前我們的推動還有努力應該會漸入佳境啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣好像已經執行2年了，是不是？這個據點開始推動是去年？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，我們不是一次，我們是陸陸續續成立，因為縣市政府它願意要規劃，我們才能夠成立，所以我們是陸續成立啦！有的成立比較早，有的剛成立啊！現在一共是14處啦，我們2年內成立14處，陸陸續續還會增加，其實就會讓績效慢慢地能夠提升上來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，有這樣的一個據點，我希望你們也要多宣傳，因為很多他們不知道，第一個，他可能直接到就業服務站嘛，當然就業服務站服務也都很好，但如果說你既然有這個據點的話，專門服務這些中高齡的……"],["許部長銘春：會，我們未來會有單一窗口，另外有一些長青中心之類的，很多壯世代去那邊活動，我們就把他連結起來，讓他們有這樣的資訊，瞭解自己其實可以再來奉獻給社會，是可以工作，又能解決我們勞動力的缺口這樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請王婉諭王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.072218750000001,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":25.242218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.00159375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.887218750000002,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.90784375,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.228468750000005,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.126593750000005,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.81784375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.87534375,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.18159375,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.81409375000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.71846875000001,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.88221875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.06284375000001,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.44221875000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.43284375000002,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.83284375,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.11971875,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.77721875,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.79409375,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.81096875,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":138.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.97971875000002,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.18096875,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.56034375000002,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.22659375,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.44534375,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.67721875,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.55034375,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.58409375000002,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.39034375,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.55471875,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.53346875000003,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":188.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.54159375,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.57534375,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.08346875,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.34409375,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.61159375000003,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.91034375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.90159375000002,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.37409375000001,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.88034375,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.09971875000002,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.47909375,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEA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部長好 今天討論這個有關這個勞動退休金的問題那我想請教就是說其實我們看到一份報告就是說我們這個人力資源顧問有關在那個評比台灣的這個評比當中排名第39那這個排名第39可能我們從上面看到就是說確實台灣的這個退休金制度是不是存在一些問題"},{"start":45.47,"end":64.963,"text":"議員提到有關退休金提撥的問題我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中已經一直往上跳到明年開始已經到兩萬七千多像這樣子的話我們勞保的投保薪資的上限在105年"},{"start":66.184,"end":70.508,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":91.877,"end":120.205,"text":"你很難直接比較啦很難直接比較但是因為這個不是單純評估說像我們這種我們的職業勞工他退休以後的那個退休金的狀況他評比的面向我看很廣包括基礎年金公共年金私人兌現金計算還有持有房產債務全部都在裡面所以我認為說這個很難去做比較但是呢我是認為說我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工的退休經濟生活的安全那我們現在其實就是兩個嘛"},{"start":120.945,"end":136.885,"text":"老保加勞退。老保加勞退,我們工作三十年,現在平均投保薪資大概在三萬七左右。退休以後所領的所得替代率"},{"start":137.385,"end":155.136,"text":"大概在百分之六十八並不會低於OECD不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考第二個就是說那個四萬五千八天花板是不是要打開那這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個"},{"start":156.496,"end":160.017,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":187.143,"end":204.401,"text":"其實我一直想要講的就是說其實我們的這個勞保的這個投保薪資在105年提高到這個四萬五千八嘛那其實我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調那是不是也要相對的這個投保薪資是不是也要再往上"},{"start":205.501,"end":230.916,"text":"這是我認為應該是這樣子才合理啊我也認為應該是這樣你看我們的紙災保險災保我就提到七萬兩千八了這個已經cover到大概有八成的勞工九成勞工都可以適用得到但未來我是覺得這一題可能未來就是可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論啊不然我現在我只要單提高一級我就是一千五百億的負擔啊"},{"start":234.216,"end":237.218,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":257.247,"end":259.608,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":284.683,"end":303.162,"text":"對這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見但是就是說現在的狀況就是說還是有些老團比較擔心的就是說這畢竟是退休老本那你要自擔風險這件事情萬一有譬如說像去年金融"},{"start":304.125,"end":308.888,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":327.259,"end":353.056,"text":"其中有很多高齡或中高齡的民眾,其實他們也很想在二度就業。早的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作,有的他們也急需一份工作,有的確實是因為經濟的壓力,急需一份工作。可是他們去應徵的時候可能都會碰到年齡的關係,或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合。"},{"start":357.339,"end":373.541,"text":"其他還有長輩需要照顧所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合那我也看到就是說你們有提出一個就是針對這個補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的這個措施那我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":374.582,"end":376.803,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":392.159,"end":393.701,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":405.472,"end":406.934,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":424.172,"end":426.714,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":443.946,"end":445.927,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":465.235,"end":490.442,"text":"還要繼續持續嗎?會繼續,我們會弄到50處。對啊,問題是執行率不是那麼好,你們怎麼去改善?因為報告委也是剛開始啦,就是我們會陸續的去,因為有些這件事情就是會要需要一些時間,我覺得依目前我們的推動還有我們的努力應該會進入加進啦,進入加進。這樣好像已經執行兩年了欸,是不是?"},{"start":490.742,"end":494.484,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":514.132,"end":531.578,"text":"兩年內目前是14處了,那陸陸續續還會增加,那我們其實就會讓績效慢慢的把它能夠提升上來。好,那有這樣的一個據點我希望你們也要多宣傳,因為很多他們不知道可能也是"},{"start":532.538,"end":546.383,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16"},{"start":559.868,"end":562.314,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"}]}},{"id":"149013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d66f0c63c8fd12bc9fab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322b36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:22:42 - 10:29:26","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":404,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:29:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:22:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。部長，目前我們看到3位總統候選人在談論到勞退新制的問題，都僅說會鼓勵雇主和勞工提撥，卻迴避強制提高雇主提撥勞退的修法，這樣看起來，他們應該是沒有想要去解決我們勞工的生活，而且是退休的生活，尤其我們現在看到整個物價上漲這麼多。請問勞動部，我們從舊制到新制，18年過去了，時空背景也不同了，所以針對提高雇主提撥勞退的比例是否應儘速研議提高？我們要問，目前全國勞工可期待預計提高多少百分比？預計什麼時候可以推行修法？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們知道勞工非常關心這個議題，但是因為強制提撥的部分就會牽涉到雇主的負擔，所以這個部分我們會參考大家的意見，然後……"],["陳委員椒華：所以勞動部的態度就是還在研議嗎？在參考意見嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們就是來傾聽，然後參考大家意見。委員，就是因為我們也統計……"],["陳委員椒華：勞工就是希望提高啊！"],["許部長銘春：你問我多少百分比，問題是每提高1%的話，雇主每一年的負擔大概就是390億，所以這個部分因為會增加雇主的負擔，我們是認為可能要再經過討論啦！"],["陳委員椒華：可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員椒華：也一直是困難的問題，但是18年過去了，本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來檢討，然後提出照顧勞工的作法，尤其物價上漲這麼多，是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個牽涉到退休的生活，當然我們願意傾聽勞工的意見，也願意針對大家的期待來跟雇主還有資方……"],["陳委員椒華：好，那要積極去研議嘛，你認為什麼時候要修法呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我是認為這個部分還要經過討論之後、傾聽各界的聲音，然後跟勞雇雙方共同討論之後……"],["陳委員椒華：我們的總統候選人都沒有具體地提出他們要做的方法，那勞動部是不是樂的輕鬆呢？"],["許部長銘春：也不是這樣，報告委員，因為這個……"],["陳委員椒華：不是這樣，那是怎樣呢？"],["許部長銘春：因為整個政策有時候……因為這個也牽涉到……這個也算是一個大議題，我覺得大家還是必須去面對，但是要審慎地研議，這個議題其實我們一直都瞭解，勞工的期待也很高，我們知道。"],["陳委員椒華：好，瞭解了，還會繼續再瞭解。部長，現在我們勞工退休金的個人帳戶是政府代為操作，請問目前的績效怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我們的績效大概平均有4.5%到4.6%。"],["陳委員椒華：那是不是可以開放由勞工選擇，像私校退撫基金可以自主投資或是一定比例……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們的投資收益沒有比退撫基金差，我們是比它……"],["陳委員椒華：所以目前沒有考慮要修改？"],["許部長銘春：目前其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音，尤其也有勞團是持反對的意見，所以這個議題我們是持開放的態度，但是會傾聽各界的聲音，目前……"],["陳委員椒華：或是可以一定比例，譬如60%由政府操作，其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資。"],["許部長銘春：我想各種意見我們都會參考。"],["陳委員椒華：好，再請教部長，在臺灣的年金制度中，有6萬多名的私校教職員處境是最為特殊的，在私校的退撫新制實施後，目前也沒有發揮預期的效益。部長，你認為現在的私校職災等保險可不可以跟勞保整併呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個議題我請主管來回復，好不好？"],["陳委員椒華：本席是希望能夠關心私校這些退撫的教職員工，這個部分勞動部有沒有去瞭解他們的困境，然後考慮跟勞保來做整併？"],["許部長銘春：我瞭解了，報告委員，因為這個目前還是屬於公保體系，所以我想委員關心的是這個議題。"],["陳委員椒華：是，沒錯。"],["許部長銘春：我們再跟銓敘部這邊來做一些瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：好，目前也是因為物價上漲得這麼嚴重，以後這些私校退撫，以一個教授退休來說，他的月退可能才1萬6,000元，這是非常非常地低，所以這個問題我也是希望政府能夠重視。再來，中捷到北捷的工安事故頻傳，我要請問勞動部怎麼來監督？昨天北捷的工程又發生工安事故，這個監督方面你們現在要怎麼做？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分臺北市政府勞檢處目前正在做一些職災的調查，之後瞭解了也會做相關的處分。"],["陳委員椒華：再給本席書面，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，再提供給委員。"],["陳委員椒華：兩個禮拜，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：有請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.29221875,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.729093750000004,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.204718750000005,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.56909375000001,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.52221875000001,"end":69.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.45034375,"end":77.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.11159375000001,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.74346875,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.47284375000001,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.10971875,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.91471875,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.97596875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.70971875000001,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":118.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.16034375000001,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.59471875000001,"end":134.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":134.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.31784375,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.23221875000002,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":162.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.61034375,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.13221875000002,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.78471875000002,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.18096875,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.19784375,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.79596875000001,"end":183.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.98534375,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.26346875000002,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.13159375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.23471875,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.40721875000003,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.14534375000002,"end":222.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.28346875000003,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.88971875000001,"end":229.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.31159375000001,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.03721875000002,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.32409375,"end":232.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.04909375000003,"end":236.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.05721875,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.79909375000003,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.22034375,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.94034375,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.55971875,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.24284375,"end":269.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.59221875000003,"end":286.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.54659375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.14534375,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.07346875,"end":295.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.22096875,"end":296.490968750000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案。"},{"start":111.91,"end":134.161,"text":"會增加雇主負擔﹖我們是認為說可能要再經過討論﹖可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛對不對也是一直困難的問題但是18年過去了本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來做檢討然後提出來照顧勞工的做法尤其物價上漲這麼的多是嗎"},{"start":135.817,"end":140.146,"text":"報告委員,因為這個是牽涉到退休的生活,當然我們"},{"start":143.271,"end":152.053,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":171.806,"end":173.33,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":181.752,"end":206.073,"text":"這是一個大議題我覺得大家還是必須去面對但是要去審慎的研議我們沒有說這個議題其實我們一直也了解勞工的期待也很高了解了還會繼續再了解那請問部長我們現在勞工退休金個人帳戶現在我們的政府是代委操作那請問績效現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":208.237,"end":209.378,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":228.9,"end":253.917,"text":"所以目前沒有要考慮做修改目前我們其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音而且我們也有勞團他是持反對的意見所以我們認為說這個議題我們開放的態度但是請聽各界的聲音說是可以一定比例比如說60%由政府操作其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資"},{"start":256.699,"end":259.087,"text":"我想各種意見我們都會來參考,各種意見來參考。"},{"start":261.618,"end":286.328,"text":"好,那再請教部長部長知道那個私校就是我們就是臺灣的年金制度中有6萬多的私校教職員就是處金是最為特殊那這些私校的退府新制實施目前也沒有發揮預期的效益"},{"start":287.248,"end":298.151,"text":"那部長你認為現在的私校職災等保險可不可以跟勞保來做整併呢?本席是希望能夠有關心私校這些退府的教職員工"},{"start":316.34,"end":319.167,"text":"立法院第10屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條之一"},{"start":321.431,"end":323.873,"text":"等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":351.651,"end":353.733,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":372.56,"end":393.484,"text":"昨天北捷的工程又發生公安事故。」那這個監督方面我們現在要怎麼做?臺北市政府勞檢處目前正在做一些實在的調查,那之後了解也會做相關的部分。"}]}},{"id":"149012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d67e01be54a66e1a8bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a032216680b52cefca5135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:12:20 - 10:22:35","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":615,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:22:35+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:12:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時12分）謝謝主席，拜託許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：徐委員好。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，我這會期好像對勞動部是最軟的，然後最低工資法又過了。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員的支持。"],["徐委員志榮：今天是這會期最後一次質詢，我們今天主要講勞退條例，當勞工朋友退休以後，勞保跟勞退應該是他最主要的經濟來源，剛剛也聽了所得替代率等等，照我們現有的制度來講，領最低工資的人應該有百分之三十幾吧？"],["許部長銘春：至少應該有……"],["徐委員志榮：應該有三百多萬人嘛，領最低工資的勞工做了30年、35年下來……"],["許部長銘春：領最低工資大概百分之二十幾，我們現在有二百多萬人。"],["徐委員志榮：那也還算滿多的。"],["許部長銘春：大概占五分之一。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣他們的所得替代率等等算起來夠他們生活嗎？夠他們安心的生活嗎？領基本工資的人也有可能一直做到退休都還是領基本工資喔！"],["許部長銘春：對。退休的話，要看他的年資。"],["徐委員志榮：算30年的話，大概……"],["許部長銘春：我們現在是……"],["徐委員志榮：再加個勞退的話，二萬多？"],["許部長銘春：差不多2萬7、8啦！"],["徐委員志榮：2萬7、8應該還馬馬虎虎。"],["許部長銘春：我現在的印象是2萬5,000元就也差不多……"],["徐委員志榮：還馬馬虎虎，可以過活了。然後我們就講到是我自己的觀念錯誤還是怎樣？我們勞保的公務預算來挹注，剛剛好像主席也有講過，好像已經提撥二千多億元嘛？"],["許部長銘春：2,670億元。"],["徐委員志榮：我不知道這個是對還是錯，我一直的觀念是公務預算如果不撥補到這邊，我不是反對喔！譬如明年的1,000億還可以到其他各部會，還有很多地方要用，我的意思就是說一直用公務預算撥補的話，好像不是真正解決勞保年金幾年後幾年後會破產的根本解決之道。當然部長一再地說我們政府負責最後的支付責任，也不可能會破產，也可以讓大家安心，但我一直覺得用公務預算撥補，甚至於你明年1,000億，有可能以後會超過1,000億也不一定吧？也有可能吧？"],["許部長銘春：對，明年就1,200億。"],["徐委員志榮：就會超過嘛！我的意思是那個錢應該其他部會也都還有需要用，我們的根本解決之道應該是在勞保年金的改革上。當然一講到改革就講到多繳、少領、延後退，當然這很難處理，假設沒有公務預算的撥補，有沒有什麼其他方法可以讓勞保年金不要這麼快的破產？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，其實目前大概所有不管是學者專家、各政黨或者政府所研議、討論當中的方案……"],["徐委員志榮：最簡單最簡單的就是公務預算撥補。"],["許部長銘春：撥補一定要有，因為現在第一個，我們的費率其實最高就到12%；第二個，我們年資給付率是1.55。這個收支逆差從106年就開始發生，所以政府撥補這件事情是各個版本都一定要有。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，一定要有，但是一直擴張的話我覺得也不是根本解決之道。大家參考看看，譬如我們增加勞參率，這個勞參率可能是針對婦女姐妹朋友，他們可能因為工時不方便還是其他原因，所以比較沒有工作的意願，可以用變形工時給他們有方便的時間去當勞工，意思就是當勞工的話就比較有人繳錢，比較多人繳保費嘛，甚至於65歲退休，是不是有可能一步一步、慢慢的從65到66，或者是一段時間後再從66到67退休，日本好像也到70歲才退是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對，日本……"],["徐委員志榮：我也不是很清楚啦，我也不好意思透露我的年齡，其實像我這個年齡，我要去工作的話還是很行的啦！所以稍微延後退的話……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，日本現在也是65，跟我們一樣，不過他們有研議要延長啦。"],["徐委員志榮：有研議要延長喔？所以我的意思也是說是否也可以研議延長，不是兵役的役啦，是研討看能不能延長。總歸就是我覺得一直用公務預算撥補雖然是必須要的，但是越來越多，你看從200億、300億、幾百億，數字好像越來越大了。反正就是開源節流嘛，延後退可能就是一種節流方式，開源可能就像我剛剛講的提高勞參率，當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的變形工時，大概就講到這邊給你參考啦！","也有一些勞工朋友跟我提過，我們的勞保基金也是有委託代操，之前有一些人是想說他自提的部分可不可以他自己去委託民間的一些代操單位，甚至政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起去委託？他可能認為他委託的獲益比較大。我知道我們政府會擔心他把自己的退休金老本委託到私人去以後血本無歸，退休生活更有麻煩，但是我一直在想，會提撥6%到代操的人不是會領基本工資的人，他應該都是電子新貴，一個月都是薪水幾十萬的人啦！不然那個6%，小小的錢操起來也沒有多少錢嘛！所以就算他提撥的6%跟政府的6%一起給它操，操到都算零的話，但他一個月領幾十萬、十幾萬薪水的人，生活也安全無虞啦！因此是不是我們也可以考慮，甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊操，而他自己提撥的6%，他搞不好一個月領薪水二、三十萬耶！他提撥6%去這樣代操的話，可能也是一種相當的金額，當然他認為他自己委外的話，獲益比部裡面操的多，他盈虧自己負責嘛！所以這方面是否也可以考慮啦？反正他自己去決定嘛！他自己決定，他要的話就自己負責嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，謝謝委員剛剛的意見，我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法，的確如果……"],["徐委員志榮：當然在部裡面是有保障啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，就是我們會考慮到畢竟不是所有自提的勞工都可能是那麼高薪啦！有時候他自提的部分，他還是希望有保障，當然他自選之後，他自擔風險……"],["徐委員志榮：那當然啦！"],["許部長銘春：但我們會擔心像去年那種整個金融市場……"],["徐委員志榮：那他當然就自己負責啦！"],["許部長銘春：跌了兩、三成，勞工都很擔心啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對啦！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們會多重考量。"],["徐委員志榮：我的意思是，會去提撥給民間操作的人，他領的薪水一定是很多的啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["徐委員志榮：萬一那邊泡湯掉，他領的薪水應該都還沒問題啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，其實……"],["徐委員志榮：我的論點是這樣。"],["許部長銘春：像這些高薪的，他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品，也是一個方式，那也是一種自選，所以他其實不一定要進到這個自提裡面來，他也可以把自己本來要自提的，他其實就可以去購買商品嘛！"],["徐委員志榮：他也有可能自己在玩嘛！"],["許部長銘春：就是金融市場上的商品，譬如固定買基金或什麼，那又是另外一個投資方式，其實我們都鼓勵大家多方去理財，但最重要的就是一定要有保本啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對，我瞭解。"],["許部長銘春：不然的話，這個勞工的退休金，這是他退休經濟生活的安全，這很重要。"],["徐委員志榮：好，謝謝部長，也是給你參考而已啦！"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員志榮：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳椒華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.021593750000001,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.79784375,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.92846875,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.61971875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.15471875,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.32284375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.60534375,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.68971875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.668468750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":49.744718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.52034375,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.47284375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.57409375,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.78471875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.21846875,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.64846875,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.59346875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.17534375000001,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.79534375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.02284375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.93346875,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.09721875000001,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.42596875000001,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.49346875,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.76346875,"end":92.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.01659375000001,"end":92.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.38784375,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.44659375,"end":94.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.02846875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.98159375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.54659375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.03596875000001,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.31846875000001,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.22096875000001,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.28409375000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.89971875,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.35096875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.43096875,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":116.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.68471875,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":192.659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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":154.422,"end":165.37,"text":"其他各部會還有很多地方要用的。我的意思就是說,好像一直用公務預算撥補的話,好像不是真正的解決這個"},{"start":168.195,"end":193.639,"text":"老闆年金他們說幾年後幾年後會不會破產的這個根本解決之道啦當然部長您一再的是說我們政府負責最後的這個支付責任也不可能會破產是這樣也可以讓大家安心我一直覺得就是說用公務意義上的撥補甚至於你明年一千億也有可能以後會超過一千億也不一定吧也有可能吧對明年就一千兩百億"},{"start":194.039,"end":195.9,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":221.397,"end":248.353,"text":"那是不是說如果沒有這個公務預算的撥補我們假設啦沒有公務預算的撥補有沒有什麼其他的方法來可以對這個勞保年金不要這麼快的跟委員報告齁其實目前啦齁大概所有不管是學者專家或各政黨或是政府所研議的齁就是說在討論當中的方案齁"},{"start":249.611,"end":269.157,"text":"最簡單就是撥補一定要有因為第一個我們的費率其實最高就到12%第二個我們年資給付率是1.55那這個收支逆差就從106年就開始了發生所以政府撥補這件事情是一定各個版本都一定要有"},{"start":269.497,"end":271.878,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":294.429,"end":297.172,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":310.803,"end":338.558,"text":"較多人繳保費甚至於說我們到65歲退是不是有可能一步一步的慢慢的65到66或者是一段時間66到67日本好像也到70歲才退還是怎麼樣我也不是很詳細的我也不好意思透露我的年齡其實像我這個年齡我要去工作的話我還是很行的"},{"start":341.859,"end":345.84,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":356.612,"end":377.565,"text":"嚴議延長,不是兵役的役,是嚴討看能不能延長。總歸就是說,我是覺得說一直用公務預算,雖然是必須要的,但是越來越多,你看從兩百億、三百億、幾百億,好像數字越來越大了。"},{"start":379.048,"end":402.349,"text":"所以這個反正就是開研節流嘛節流可能就是延後退的一種節流方式開研可能就我剛剛講的這個提高勞參力提高勞參力當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的這個變形工時啦大概講在這邊參考啦還有因為有一些勞工朋友跟我提過這個譬如說委託"},{"start":405.014,"end":406.976,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":421.606,"end":445.704,"text":"帶草單位甚至於政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起一起去委託他他可能認為說他委託的他的獲益比較大但是我知道我們政府會擔心說把他自己退休金的老本不要委託到那個私人的那個部分去以後"},{"start":446.705,"end":448.507,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":468.061,"end":484.734,"text":"所以說就算他提拨的6%跟政府的6%一起給他抄,抄到沒有破都算零的話他一個月他領幾十萬十幾萬薪水的人他的生活也安全無疑啦所以是不是我們也可以考慮說"},{"start":487.443,"end":514.41,"text":"甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊抄他自己提撥的6%他搞不好一個月領薪水二三十萬他提撥6%去這樣代替抄的話可能也是一種相當的金額當然他認為說他自己委外的話會議比部裡面抄的多他自己盈虧他自己負責所以這方面是否也可以考慮"},{"start":516.209,"end":521.699,"text":"反正他自己去決定嘛。他自己決定他要的話你就自己負責嘛。"},{"start":524.712,"end":548.389,"text":"謝謝委員的剛剛的意見我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法那的確就是說如果當然在部裡面是有保障對 那就是說我們會考慮到說畢竟不是所有自選的勞工自體的勞工他可能都是那麼高薪所以有時候他的自體的部分他才是希望有保障"},{"start":549.19,"end":569.382,"text":"所以如果說當然你說他自選之後他自擔風險我們都會擔心說像去年那種金融整個金融市場跌了兩三成勞工都很擔心所以我們會多種考量我的意思是說會去提撥給民間操作的人他領的薪水一定是很多的萬一那邊泡湯掉他領的薪水應該都還沒問題"},{"start":573.084,"end":589.97,"text":"而其實像這些高薪的他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品也是一個方式那也是一種自選就他其實不一定要進到這個自體裡面來他也可以把自己本來要自體的他其實就可以去購買商品就是金融市場上的商業"},{"start":592.881,"end":594.923,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"}]}},{"id":"149011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d65788c97d296cb506ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03221b1b31f5abdde3215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"10:03:10 - 10:12:14","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":544,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:12:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:03:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":403,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（10時3分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動部發展署蔡署長。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：有請署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。據悉我國已即將與印度簽署MOU引進印度籍勞工，本席並不反對這樣的政策，不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。首先我想請教一下，印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工，在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進，東南亞大概目前據我們所知，像新加坡就有很多，其實印度基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟宗教習慣的問題，各個國家其實對於移工本身的一些生活適應的調適都必須要做好一些準備，所以基本上在我們整個評估的過程當中都會去詳加注意。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為剛剛你提到語言，畢竟他們光是方言就447種，官方承認就22種，所以在語言上是非常地多元化，將來這些印度籍的勞工，我另外再請教他們未來主要是補充什麼樣產業的缺工問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員……"],["陳委員瑩：你可能要講大聲一點，對準麥克風。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，關於未來在哪些產業有這些印度籍勞工的需求，我們後續會在工作小組會議當中與各部會做一些討論，看看缺口在哪裡。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們現在還不知道？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，因為未來到底在哪些行業需要開放由印度移工補充，還要做一些討論，目前我們在第一階段只是就來源國的部分做評估。"],["陳委員瑩：所以在還不知道哪些產業缺工、要補充哪些產業就直接先挑選國家？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為我們過去以往在開放的過程當中，第一個，跟來源國之間要先有一個合作意向，這是第一步。"],["陳委員瑩：沒關係！根據媒體報導，可能開放的行業其實也就是我們常見的缺工行業，像農業、製造業及營造業，由於這些行業的外籍勞工大部分都是居住在廠區以外的社區，針對印度籍勞工的生活管理，我想瞭解一下發展署有什麼樣的規劃及準備？"],["蔡署長孟良：目前針對印度移工開放，第一個要考量其來源和勞工素質，尤其是不能影響我們的治安部分，我們會特別注意。目前國內在移工管理上其實都有一些相關規範，我們也會在後續的工作會議當中做一些相關規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：聽起來好像對於他們大部分要居住在廠區以外的這些社區，在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的規劃及準備？"],["蔡署長孟良：就我們的瞭解，目前國內的移工，其實大部分雇主都會做一些妥善安排，就是在廠區內……"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理？"],["蔡署長孟良：他會做一些規劃，但要依照我們的規定來辦理。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們只是規定，規劃留給雇主自己去處理？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們後續也會協助。"],["陳委員瑩：其實你不用緊張，我今天只是提出一些提醒，如果這只是規定，而你們沒有及早做一些規劃準備的話，我良心建議你們還是多思考一些，也幫雇主多思考一些，會減少到時候可能會面對的問題，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：再來，印度是一個非常多元文化、種族，甚至存在階級嚴格差異的國家，他們的文字及語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度，發展署有沒有儲備這方面的人才？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為印度確實非常大，它的語言真的非常多，英文只是其中之一，以目前外交部給我們的建議，後續大概會有一些來源地區的選擇，尤其語言部分也會納入優先考量，至於其他語言如印度語，這部分也跟委員報告，我們後續必須要跟學校或相關的翻譯資源進行一些合作。"],["陳委員瑩：每個人第一個想到的都會是語言，可能是翻譯的部分，我想再提醒，因為在宗教、生活、語言、習慣上的不同，而且也不是我們非常熟悉或其他來源國很熟悉的地方，所以有關於心理諮商輔導的部分，未來在這些不同國籍的勞工們有衝突的時候，怎麼樣來做協調，這方面的人才其實也都是你需要思考到的。對於印度籍勞工一旦進到臺灣，是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練？特別是職業安全衛生的教育訓練，我不知道你們有沒有跟職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：現在我們跟職安署不管移工在來臺前或來臺後，職安衛的部分都會列入一個重點，未來印度移工也會納入整體來做一個規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：所以不會只有看護工需要而已？"],["蔡署長孟良：不會，都需要整體規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為我有看到職安署署長點頭。","再來請勞保局，我接下來想再提醒一下勞保局。"],["白局長麗真：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：你們投保對象的姓名欄位是不是適用印度籍勞工？會不會因為字元的長度太短，以至於無法登錄？聽說最長的曾經長到六百多字，一般而言，在印度的制度下，有些人的姓名真的很長，如果我們事先沒有做好準備跟因應，到時候會不會造成電腦資料庫當機？"],["白局長麗真：非常謝謝委員提醒，日後如果有相關的移工引進，我們會特別留意。"],["陳委員瑩：因為聽說有的還要再爭取或者他們還需要到1,000字，所以這部分本席在這邊做一個提醒。我今天提出的這些問題只是在提醒勞動部還有各所屬機關一定要好好規劃跟準備，既然行政院已經核定要與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容，預定在年底前完成簽署，雖然時間上尚未完全確定，一直到真的進來可能還有一段時間，在人數上也都需要討論，所以預計明年才會正式引進印度籍勞工。但是我覺得有敏感度、有遠見、有責任感的機關首長會往前看，就會看見、遇見很多的問題，我相信在這個部長的帶領之下，大家一定會跟他一樣聰明，就各自業務職掌的範圍希望大家可以好好規劃跟準備，謝謝。"],["白局長麗真：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位有請徐志榮委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.57596875,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.90409375,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.884718750000005,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.89534375,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.92034375,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.57284375,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.19096875000001,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.90346875,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.33784375,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.05284375000002,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.39034375,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.33534375000002,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.14784375000002,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.33659375000002,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.31096875,"end":153.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.28534375,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.36971875,"end":155.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.68471875,"end":177.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.10034375,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.08534375000002,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.98909375000002,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":227.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.84346875000003,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.58471875,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.87971875000002,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.62596875000003,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.44784375,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.76409375000003,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.83971875,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.60284375,"end":271.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.41471875,"end":272.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.41034375000004,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.58784375000005,"end":326.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":368.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.06346875,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.99471875,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.76659375,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.05471875,"end":398.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.17971875,"end":401.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.25971875000005,"end":402.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.19159375000004,"end":406.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.19096875,"end":407.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.77721875000003,"end":411.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.11846875000003,"end":412.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.38784375,"end":417.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.88971875000004,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.05409375000005,"end":419.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.53846875000005,"end":451.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.79159375,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.80846875000003,"end":456.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.46596875,"end":482.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.28471875,"end":515.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.66346875,"end":532.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.25971875,"end":536.75721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.23,"end":43.762,"text":"二、委員謝主席麻煩請這個發展署蔡署長,又請署長。好,委員好。署長好。據悉我國即將與這個印度簽署MOU引進的這個印度籍勞工。那本席並不反對這樣的政策,不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。"},{"start":45.63,"end":56.861,"text":"首先我想請教一下印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異?"},{"start":58.65,"end":86.464,"text":"跟委員報告因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進那東南亞大概目前據我們所知像新加坡他就有很多那其實印度大概基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟這個宗教習慣的問題那各個國家其實對於這個移工他在本身的一些生活適應的條例都必須要做好一些準備那這基本上在我們在整個評估的過程當中都會去想加注意"},{"start":87.52,"end":113.21,"text":"因為剛剛你提到語言畢竟他們光是這個方言就447種那這個官方承認就22種所以是相當在這個語言上是非常的多元化那將來這些這個印度籍的勞工主要我另外再請教就是說他們未來主要是補充什麼樣的這個產業缺工的問題你可能要講大聲一點對準麥克風"},{"start":116.191,"end":143.018,"text":"跟委員報告在目前印度未來在哪些產業有這些需求其實目前我們在後續在工作小組會議當中跟各部會其實會做一些討論在缺口在哪裡所以你們現在是還不知道現在基本上到底未來在哪些開放行業需要由印度的移工來補充這個還要做一些討論那基本上我們在目前第一階段只是就來源國的這個部分做一個評估"},{"start":143.578,"end":144.358,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":154.321,"end":182.439,"text":"對,所以公文報告因為目前我們在整個的過去以往我們在開放的過程當中第一個就是說跟南韓國之間要先有一個合作的意向這個是第一步因為根據媒體的報導可能開放的這個行業啦其實也就是我們常見缺工的行業就是像農業啦製造業還有營造業那由於說這些行業的這些外籍的勞工呢大部分都是居住在"},{"start":183.521,"end":184.003,"text":"長驅以外的社區。」"},{"start":192.734,"end":212.916,"text":"我們目前在整個印度的移工開放第一個就是說從他的來源跟他勞工素質尤其就是說一些不能影響我們治安這個部分我們會特別注意那在國內目前在整個移工管理上其實都會有一些相關的規範這個目前我們大概都會在後續的一個工作會議當中都會做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":214.342,"end":241.692,"text":"所以聽起來好像就是對於他們大部分要居住在長區以外的這些社區在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的一個規劃跟準備?其實大部分就我們的了解以目前國內的運用其實大部分其實雇主都會做一些妥善的安排所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理目前他會做一些規劃那要依照我們的規定來辦理"},{"start":242.671,"end":257.205,"text":"所以你們只是規定,然後規劃留給這個僱主他們自己去處理?我們後續其實也會協助。因為我今天其實你不用緊張,我只是提出一些提醒。"},{"start":258.687,"end":263.191,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":280.549,"end":283.112,"text":"甚至階級都嚴格差異的國家。文字與語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度。在發展署你們有沒有儲備這方面的人才?"},{"start":298.125,"end":326.184,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前因為印度確實非常大他的語言真的非常那英文只是其中之一啦齁那目前如果以目前外交部給我們的建議其實後續大概會有一些來源地區會有一些選擇齁那尤其語言這個部分你會優先考量那至於說如果其他語言像印度語這部分也跟委員報告這個我們現在也後續必須要做一些相關的跟學校跟一些相關的一些翻譯的一個資源來做一些合作"},{"start":327.926,"end":351.741,"text":"當然每個人第一個想到的會是語言那可能就是翻譯的部分那我想再提醒就是說因為可能在宗教還有生活語言習慣上的這個不同那也不是我們非常熟悉或者其他這個來源國很熟悉的這個地方那所以就是說有關於這個輔導心理諮商"},{"start":354.062,"end":354.983,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":374.876,"end":402.426,"text":"那是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練那特別是這個職業安全衛生的教育訓練我不知道你們有沒有已經跟這個職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程對跟委員其實現在我們跟職安署其實在移工不管是來台前或來台後其實職安會這個部分會列入一個重點那未來印度移工也會納入整體來做一些工作所以不會只是看護工需要而已都需要整理過嗎"},{"start":403.22,"end":404.242,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":416.791,"end":436.291,"text":"我接下來想就是再提醒一下這個勞保局就是你們投保對象的這個姓名藍衛是不是有適用印度籍的這個勞工因為字源的長度會不會太短以至於說無法登錄聽說這個最長的曾經已經長到有600多字"},{"start":436.972,"end":447.785,"text":"所以一般而言在這個印度的這個制度下有一些人的姓名真的很長那如果我們事先就沒有做好這個準備跟因應到時候會被造成這個電腦資料庫當機"},{"start":452.194,"end":470.216,"text":"非常謝謝委員提醒那日後如果說相關移工的引進我們特別來留意因為還有聽說有的還要再爭取或者他們還有需要到一千字的所以這個部分本席也在這邊做一個提醒那因為我今天提出的這些問題"},{"start":472.098,"end":488.976,"text":"只提醒勞動部及各所屬機關必須好好規劃及準備既然行政院已合併與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容預定在年底前完成簽署"},{"start":489.617,"end":502.328,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":515.64,"end":524.265,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"}]}},{"id":"149010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d641a774a6c3414365ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322470cdfe8d0499ff35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"09:55:31 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10:03:02","影片長度":"00:07:31","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":451,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:03:02+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:55:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（9時55分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部長許部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長早。已經快過一年了，然後也可能是我最後一次跟部長質詢，我想請問一下部長覺得大家今年討論的年度關鍵字，你知道這個年度關鍵字是什麼字嗎？"],["許部長銘春：缺吧！"],["吳委員欣盈：是的，今年的關鍵字是缺，不只是五缺，加上缺蛋、缺藥，對年輕人來說，因為通膨物價成長，大家也感覺到缺錢；當然貨物的負擔率、房屋率的比例也創下歷史新高，也讓年輕人感覺到缺房；勞保也即將破產，年輕人會更覺得缺退休金。依據調查，國人退休力連續3年不及格，其中未滿30歲的、30到39歲的又偏低，只有52分，國人雖然年紀增大，越來越接近退休的年齡才剛開始準備退休金，這時候已經晚了10到20年，所以本席認為政府應該鼓勵國人立即更早地準備退休金，透過時間以及複利的效果，退休金不是1比1的增加，而是倍數的增加。","今天想跟部長分享本席辦公室的試算複利的威力，譬如勞工25歲的時候開始提6%，每年只有3萬塊的薪水，而且假設他到60歲的時候，他的薪水完全都不成長的前提之下，等於勞工每個月只要花1,800元，退休之後每個月就可以領多於6,500元，一塊錢就等於變成3.6塊錢，可是很可惜的就是勞退新制這18年來，自提的比例只有14%，每年成長率不到1%，勞動部擬定未來的3年自提目標，其實未來是每年成長大概1.5%，可是實際上這代表在2025的時候總額才17.7%，本席認為其實這還是太慢了，如果每年是1.5%的提升的話，要到20年之後才能追趕到OECD國家。你看這個表格有寫說OECD的國家的自提比率，英國的話就79%、美國51%，臺灣像我剛剛所提的，就算是2025年到17.7%，還是相當地慢，因為一般民眾所謂的financial literacy，就是理財的知識是不足的，所以我也希望部長從政策這個部分能多予關心，我是覺得要提高自提比率必須要對症下藥。本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料作出以下的圖表，觀察到2個事件，首先，像剛剛所提到的自提比率，目前為止有600萬的勞工沒有自提；第二就是低薪的困境，薪資越高，自提反而越多，所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決，可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自提比率，本席建議勞動部可以參考農退條例，勞工為自提退休金，政府應該給予更多的獎勵，農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自提搭配政府相對的matching提撥的獎勵，這已經實施2年了，自提比率就快速地提升到了27%。","接下來有請主計總處上台，然後請許部長留步好嗎？","謝謝，針對勞退相對的提撥matching scheme，我辦公室也很負責地把這個算出來來瞭解財政的支出需要多少，以本席的草案，勞工自提滿6%，政府是相對提5,000元，但本席認為這次的政策如果更積極的話，自提1%到6%都可以給予5,000塊的獎金，讓全國人民的自提比率可以提升到5成，國庫將每年支出大概180億元，相對勞保撥補的高達2,570億元的話，政府應該可以負擔的，而且勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭，這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的，我想請問主計總處對這個態度如何？"],["黃專門委員厚輯：基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔，所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體財政一併考量，可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理，以上。"],["吳委員欣盈：不好意思，你戴口罩，我沒聽清楚。"],["黃專門委員厚輯：可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理，因為可能還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量，而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題。"],["吳委員欣盈：好，所以還在考慮當中就是了？好，謝謝。","最後就是許部長想跟您說，目前15歲到29歲的青年，每年平均是3.4萬來說的話，自提6%就大約是2,000元，如果政府補助5,000元的話就等於是2.5倍的獎金，本席相信如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來，對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外就是勞動部也可以思考雇主提撥超過6%給予企業稅優，我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉，然後以整體政策的配套，希望勞動部也可以全盤考量，能提出民眾真正有感的政策，讓我們全民的退休金能提升，謝謝您。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員的提議，這個就是要增加自提的具體方法，因為這牽涉到財政，我們會跟相關部會一起討論，謝謝您。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.57346875,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.99846875,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.55284375,"end":36.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.39659375,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.46409375,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.987218750000004,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.814093750000005,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.626593750000005,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.27909375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.61159375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.08721875,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.82909375,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.47846875,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.53596875000001,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.40784375000001,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.75284375000001,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.98034375,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.69971875,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.34846875,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.87971875,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.03096875,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.72909375,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.52596875,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.65596875,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.38971875000001,"end":219.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.57471875000002,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.92471875,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.69159375,"end":229.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.05409375000002,"end":233.32784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.44596875000002,"end":237.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.85034375,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.14971875,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.57846875,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.74534375,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.46221875000003,"end":264.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.35659375,"end":270.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.19971875000005,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.43159375,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.64221875000004,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.63784375,"end":274.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.65471875000003,"end":274.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.67159375,"end":274.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.73909375,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.77284375,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.59534375000004,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.28221875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.86659375,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.94659375000003,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.34596875,"end":306.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.18971875,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.61534375,"end":317.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.83784375000005,"end":326.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.05159375,"end":328.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.43534375,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.05096875000004,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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literacy就是財經的一些理財的知識是不足的所以我也希望說部長從政策這個部分能多於關心"},{"start":199.016,"end":225.581,"text":"那我是覺得說要提高自體比率呢必須要對症下藥那本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料做出以下的這個圖表那觀察到兩個事件就是首先像剛剛所提到的自體比率目前為止達高六百萬的勞工沒有自體那第二就是說這個低薪的困境薪資越高自體反而越多"},{"start":227.768,"end":247.453,"text":"所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自體比率那本期建議勞動部可以參考這個農退條例勞工為自體退休金政府應該給予更多的獎勵"},{"start":249.879,"end":269.931,"text":"農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自體搭配政府相對的Matching提撥的獎勵,這已經實施了兩年了,自體比率就快速提升到了27%。接下來想有請主席處上台,然後請許部長留步好嗎?主席處"},{"start":296.141,"end":309.586,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第19會"},{"start":311.147,"end":334.578,"text":"以本席的草案這個勞工部自提的百分之滿百分之六政府是相對提五千元但本席認為這次的政策如果更積極的話自提百分之一到百分之六都可以給予五千塊的獎金讓全國的人民自提比率可以提升到五成那國庫呢將每年支出大概一百八十億元"},{"start":339.45,"end":353.962,"text":"兩千五百七十億元的話政府應該可以負擔的而且就是勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的那我想請問說主計處對這個態度如何"},{"start":358.914,"end":384.721,"text":"對,基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔,所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體的財政來一起一併做考量,可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理,以上。就可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理,因為還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量,而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題。好,就是還要在,所以還在考慮當中就是了。"},{"start":385.52,"end":395.043,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":403.366,"end":422.214,"text":"補助五千元等於2.5倍獎金。本席相信,如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來,對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外,勞動部也可以思考僱主提撥超過6%給予企業的稅優。我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉,"},{"start":423.654,"end":445.854,"text":"以整體政策的配套,希望勞動部也可以全盤考量,能提出民眾真正有感的政策,讓我們全民的退休金能提升。謝謝您。好,謝謝委員的提議。這個就是要增加自體具體的方法。那我們未來跟相關部會,因為這牽涉到財政,相關部會一起來討論。謝謝您。謝謝五委員。下一位。"}]}},{"id":"149009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d60f8cd2919e083458ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322d00e2261dae0cf995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張育美","委員發言時間":"09:42:19 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09:55:23","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":784,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:55:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:42:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["張委員育美：（9時42分）謝謝主席。請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：張委員好。"],["張委員育美：部長早。近日有媒體把退休率當作議題，撰寫一系列的報導。由於現在醫療進步、科技發達，人人都可以成為百歲人的候選人，為預備將來的長壽生活，健康、財務、社會連結都缺一不可。根據遠見雜誌的調查，國人退休之後的養老資金主要來自於退休年金制度的有63.3%，這是複選，其次為儲蓄或定存56.3%，基金、股票等投資是50.7%，足見國人的退休準備高度仰賴政府退休年金制度。然而根據勞動部統計，勞退新制實施了18年，全臺740萬的勞工預計今年勞退自提率只有14.69%、不到15%，表示仍然有多達600萬的勞工、85%的勞工不願意自提。請問部長，勞動部是否有進一步瞭解，勞工自提意願低落的原因是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：既然這個叫自提，自願提繳就是要尊重他的意願。為什麼沒有來自提？可能第一個、他是不是經濟的負擔比較重，薪水不夠……"],["張委員育美：低薪，錢因為通膨變小。"],["許部長銘春：有些人可能自己就去找商業保險或者到市場上去投資運用，這些都有可能。基本上，我們也是儘量鼓勵自提，尤其薪資水平比較不是那麼高的員工，能夠有累積儲蓄這樣的作用。"],["張委員育美：據我所知，我大學畢業後待在外商公司就享有勞保，我忘了那時候有沒有自提率，可是外商公司就已經有這種我們提多少、雇主提多少的退休金比例制度。那時候是30年前了！"],["許部長銘春：勞退是103年施行的。"],["張委員育美：對，30年前我在外商公司的時候，它不是用勞保，是用公司的，我們拿出幾percent，我記得那時候就6%。"],["許部長銘春：對，國外的制度就是勞工要先自提，雇主相對地就會提撥，跟我們不太一樣。"],["張委員育美：對，我們公司自提，所以我們不管有沒有退休、做幾年，收入在離職之後都還不錯，這是我提醒勞動部部長的。","世界銀行指出，我們退休後所得替代率至少要達當時工作收入的六成，才能支應理想生活的品質。以2022年勞保一個月平均給付1萬8、勞退平均6,500，就是2萬4來講，估算退休後每個月年金收入不到2萬5，遠低於國人平均總薪資5萬7，我們不是說六成嗎？六成就要3萬4，我們只有2萬5，所以少了1萬塊，如果將通膨飆漲、投資市場波動等影響納入，會增加國人退休後的財務風險。對此，勞動部近來表示正在蒐集各方的意見，兼顧企業經營之下，所謂企業經營就是怎樣去撥補，朝向勞工退休保障有更好的制度。再問部長，目前有哪些調整方向呢？現在退休後的收入都不到2萬5，可是我們大概需要的是3萬4，差了差不多1萬塊。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在其實算一算……"],["張委員育美：我們現在2022年的平均。"],["許部長銘春：其實勞保還要再加勞退喔。"],["張委員育美：對呀，勞退……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我跟你說，我們的所得替代率……"],["張委員育美：勞退6,500嘛。因為很多人不提撥，剛剛講85%的人不提撥，所以他以提撥0來算。85%的人不提撥，當然有提撥的是不只啦！"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，自提的另外一回事，我們有固提，固提6%是一定要提的喔，所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加勞退……"],["張委員育美：我知道，但是自提沒有就……"],["許部長銘春：所以我們算一算，大概如果30年的勞工……"],["張委員育美：自提可以0啊！可以6加6，但是員工可以0啊！85%的人是0耶！自己提呀！雇主6%，我知道。"],["許部長銘春：我跟你說，我們的所得替代率如果以平均月投保薪資目前來講大概3萬7……"],["張委員育美：六成才夠。"],["許部長銘春：我們的所得替代率有68%，我們的退休可以領的是3萬4,386。"],["張委員育美：哪裡，2022年退休領的是1萬8加6,500呀！加起來耶！"],["許部長銘春：你是用平均薪資，我們是用投保薪資來看……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：可能我們比較的基礎不太一樣。委員，我們其實如果以勞保加勞退，一般我們假設工作30年，其實我們的所得替代率沒有比別人低，沒有比OECD的國家……"],["張委員育美：現在多少？"],["許部長銘春：大概68%。"],["張委員育美：60%嘛，一定要六成。"],["許部長銘春：我們有到68%耶！我這個資料再給您，委員。"],["張委員育美：你把你現在的數字給我，因為我們是摘錄2022年勞保一個月平均給付1萬8加上勞退6,500，是這樣算的，這是資料上的。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的重點在這裡，我們是103年才施行勞退……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：我們到現在還不到10年，所以勞退平均月領6,500……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：可是你如果算30年就不只啦！以30年來算，你的再加20年進去，平均月領不只這樣啦！"],["張委員育美：但我們現在就有人退休了，2萬5還是不夠……"],["許部長銘春：我是說比較基礎不能……就要看，你看國外可能是……"],["張委員育美：比較久以前。"],["許部長銘春：比較久了，但是我們勞退新制是103年才開始。"],["張委員育美：對，才開始。"],["許部長銘春：所以我們會得出一個勞退平均月領6,500……"],["張委員育美：勞退新制18年了耶！"],["許部長銘春：對不起，勞退新制18年了，但是也不到30年，我修正一下，但也不到30年。"],["張委員育美：好啦，不到30年，我知道，因為退休大概是工作25年以後就可以退休，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，但是我們有……"],["張委員育美：好，不到30年。如果30年的話，勞退平均就不會6,500而已，你的意思是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：委員，我會把資料給你，我們一樣算30年，如果以我們現在的勞退來算的話，我們的所得替代率沒有比較低……"],["張委員育美：要六成！"],["許部長銘春：有到六成，到68%。"],["張委員育美：你說到六成八，請你把資料給我。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["張委員育美：有達到那最好，對不對？我們的勞退只有18年，不到30年，所以勞退平均當然就只有6,500，你說如果30年就更高的意思，是不是？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["張委員育美：你的意思說有達六成八，我們的替代率是要六成，所以請勞動部長把資料送到我辦公室，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，可以。"],["張委員育美：接著我再問，我要談女性對於經濟的貢獻，事實上女性對於企業的影響力早在各領域中展現，根據臺灣女董協會女性治理白皮書所發表，在台灣上市公司28個產業當中，僅有3個產業沒有女性領導人，在疫情期間由女性所領導的企業仍穩健成長，與整體產業相比毫不遜色，可見女力對於經濟的影響已經全面擴散。我們知道哈佛大學有一個教授叫戈丁，他認為來瞭解女性勞動市場是非常charming的，是非常重要而且迷人的。","回顧我國女性勞參率，女性在未結婚之前很高，未結婚之前是89.9%，可是結婚之後呢？我們來看，從1980年的39.21%一路成長到2013年的五成，目前是51.5%，日本、韓國是53.5%和53.3%，比我們高差不多2%，新加坡六成四，北歐國家是七成一，數據上來看我們近一半的女性在30歲以後沒有投入勞動職場，請問部長有沒有瞭解原因啊？結婚之前很高，跟男性差不多，大概89.9%，你看，30歲以後突然往下降，什麼原因呢？"],["許部長銘春：主要就是婦女在國內結婚之後育兒的責任大部分還是……"],["張委員育美：為什麼日本、韓國還是比我們高？53.3%。"],["許部長銘春：婦女在就業這個議題必須考慮到育兒還有他的家庭照顧的問題。"],["張委員育美：日本、韓國也是要照顧孩子，日本人更是在家裡照顧孩子。"],["許部長銘春：所以我們這個部分目前也在努力，讓這些婦女再就業，能夠容易來銜接重返職場，也要鼓勵雇主僱用而且提供友善的職場，讓她能夠將工作跟家庭兼顧。我們現在有很多的計畫都在推動，我們希望把整個婦女的勞參率能夠提高，各國的經驗我們都有來參酌。"],["張委員育美：部長你說的是二度就業，我覺得不是二度就業，就像醫療應該prevetion……"],["許部長銘春：我說的是再就業……"],["張委員育美：再就業就是婦女再就業計畫，你花了27億，對不對？希望10萬婦女能夠回來再就業，可是我覺得應該是讓他不要離職，如果離職你要回來再就業是很難的喔！所以我們30歲以後變成51.5%，輸給日本、韓國，我是覺得比較要強調的是，你剛剛有講對了，就是友善的環境，比如育兒的環境，還有家庭照顧、老人家的環境，日本為什麼就職率比我們高，你知道嗎？就是30歲以上的女性就職率、在職率比我們高，是因為日本實施了長期照顧來照顧老人，所以不是只有你的問題，衛福部也是要關心的，經濟部都要關心，它實施了長照保險法讓我們老有所養，小孩子也有所養。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，像我們在性工法裡面也有育嬰留職停薪……"],["張委員育美：對，這個是友善的環境……"],["許部長銘春：目的是希望他續留職場，但是有些婦女可能還是會選擇在小朋友幼小的時候能夠多多陪伴，像這種情況我們也必須尊重意願，但是如果讓她能夠順利重返職場，而且能夠銜接職場，這個部分就是我們現在的婦女再就業計畫裡面一直在努力，能夠讓婦女在職場上的勞參率能夠提高。"],["張委員育美：我的意思是說，同樣是亞洲的日本、韓國，他們的在職率就比我們高2%，所以我們還是要去學習，日本很重視，他們不是很多女性結婚之後在家裡照顧孩子嗎？可是勞參率還比你高，新加坡更高，我們不是都一樣是亞洲國家，東方文化不是都很像嗎？以教育孩子為主，所以我覺得應該建議勞動部要關心托育資源的布建以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業，你說對嗎？所以不是只有你的問題而已，不是勞動部，還要結合其他部門。"],["許部長銘春：對，謝謝。"],["張委員育美：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：我們來努力，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員育美代）：下一位吳欣盈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.30034375,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.70596875,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.540343750000005,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.62659375,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.14721875000001,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.16409375,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.18096875,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.92159375,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.89596875000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.49846875,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.56159375,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":126.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.93971875000001,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.08284375000001,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.32721875000001,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.12346875,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.95034375,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.00096875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.30659375000002,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.62284375000002,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.38596875000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.23346875000001,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.67221875,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.06846875000002,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.18659375000001,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.43471875,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.32034375,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.02034375000002,"end":176.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.86409375000002,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.18409375000002,"end":181.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.55534375000002,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.75784375,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.82534375,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.70159375,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.28534375,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.38784375000003,"end":262.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.50034375,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.51284375,"end":267.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.07784375,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.14096875,"end":274.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.29284375000003,"end":270.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.97971875,"end":274.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.85721875,"end":279.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.68409375000005,"end":277.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.46846875,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.15596875,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.72971875,"end":286.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":288.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":289.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.30221875,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.57221875,"end":292.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.16659375,"end":298.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.10659375,"end":303.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.15721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«勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":154.673,"end":156.774,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十三條之一"},{"start":177.163,"end":177.704,"text":"勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":197.14,"end":216.496,"text":"而替代率至少要達六成你當時工作收入的六成才能支應你想生活的品質我們以2022年勞保一個月平均我們給付一萬八勞退平均這個六千五就兩萬四來講呢那估算推薦後每個月年收入不到兩萬五"},{"start":218.278,"end":233.454,"text":"這遠低於國人平均總薪資五萬七嘛我們不是說六成嗎六成就要三萬四那我們只有兩萬五所以少了一萬塊那通過膨脹投資市場波動這個影響納入呢增加國人退休後的財務風險"},{"start":235.636,"end":261.612,"text":"對此勞動部近來就有表示正在收集各方的意見兼顧企業經營之下企業經營就是這個我們怎樣的去一些的撥補朝向勞工退休保障有更好的研議制度那再問部長目前有哪些調整方向呢兩萬五嘛現在收入都不到兩萬五就退休後可是我們大概需要是三萬四差了差不多一萬塊"},{"start":264.676,"end":279.413,"text":"對,二、委員我們現在其實算一算有啊,對啊,我們現在平均二、二二年的平均我們其實勞保還要再加勞退喔對啊,我們算一算,對,報告委員我跟你說我們的所得替代勞退六千五嘛"},{"start":280.785,"end":302.457,"text":"因為很多人不提撥,剛剛講85人不提撥,所以他以提撥0來算啦85%不提撥,當然有提撥是不止啦不是,報告委員,字體是另外一回事,我們有固體固體6%是一定要提的喔,所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加保退字體可以0啊,可以6加6,但是員工可以0啊,85%是0欸"},{"start":309.949,"end":333.037,"text":"自己提啊!勞工顧主六趴啦我知道我跟你說我們的所得替代率喔如果以平均月頭保薪資目前來講六成才夠我們所得替代率有百分之六十八我們的退休齁可以領的是三萬四千三百八十六哪裡退休二零二二年是一萬八加六千五啊一二零二年這個啊加起來勒"},{"start":339.383,"end":342.865,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":367.128,"end":368.29,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":384.91,"end":408.463,"text":"報告委我們的重點在這裡啦我們是103才施行勞退啦所以我們到現在還不到十年啦所以勞退的平均月領六千五啦可是你有算三十年不止啦你把三十年再加二十年進去不止你平均月領不止這樣啊那我們現在就有人退休啦那兩萬五還是不夠所以我說比較基礎不能就要看啦"},{"start":410.084,"end":421.378,"text":"國外他可能是比較久了但是我們勞退薪資是103才開始所以我們會得出一個勞退平均月領6000元勞退薪資18年了沒有啦"},{"start":425.967,"end":430.328,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案案。adequate to 30 years."},{"start":455.236,"end":459.04,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":476.098,"end":490.293,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生�"},{"start":494.457,"end":522.559,"text":"女性自理白皮書的上司公司中28個產業只有三個產業沒有女性領導人在疫情期間穩健成長女性領導人企業整個產業比是毫不遜色可見女力對於經濟影響已經全面擴散我們知道哈佛大學有個教授叫戈丁他認為來了解女性勞動市場是非常charming的是非常重要而且迷人的"},{"start":523.96,"end":527.561,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":544.865,"end":570.922,"text":"一路成長到這個五成2013年的五成目前是51.5日本韓國是53.5和53.3比我們高差不多2%那新加坡六成四那北歐國家是七成一所以數據上來看我們在二十三十歲以後近一半的女性沒有投入勞動職場請問部長有沒有了解原因啊"},{"start":571.903,"end":572.965,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":584.363,"end":587.145,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":610.618,"end":624.432,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境"},{"start":634.282,"end":655.213,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案》案。netesi,你說的是二度就業﹖我覺得不是二度就業﹖就像醫療是應該的﹖我說的再就業﹖對﹖再就業就是說父女再就業你花了27億嘛對不對﹖希望10萬父女能夠回到再就業﹖可是我覺得應該是說讓他不要離職﹖如果離職你要回來再就業是很難的喔"},{"start":656.013,"end":659.355,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":683.707,"end":707.987,"text":"在職率比我們高是因為日本的實施了這個長期照顧那照顧老人所以不是只有你的問題那個我們衛福部也有問題也是要關心的經濟部都要關心的他實施了長照保險法讓我們的這個勞有所要小孩子也有所要我們在那個新公法裡面有暈流子停薪"},{"start":708.948,"end":711.649,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":735.854,"end":742.042,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":754.942,"end":782.841,"text":"兩種國家我們不是一樣都一樣的這種東方文化都很像嗎以教育孩子為主所以我覺得我應該要建議勞動部要關心這個托育資源的部件以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業你說對嗎所以不是只有你的問題而已不是勞動部還要結合其他部門對好謝謝部長我們來努力"}]}},{"id":"149008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6eaf7c36dfa1cca24ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322ea10da310c6467805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:30:54 - 09:42:10","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":676,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:42:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:30:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時30分）謝謝主席。有請勞動部許部長，還有勞動部發展署蔡署長、基金運用局蘇局長。"],["主席：有請行政單位跟部長。"],["賴委員惠員：部長早。"],["許部長銘春：委員你好。"],["賴委員惠員：今天我們在審查勞工退休金條例這一個議題之前，想就移工的政策如何更友善來跟部長做一個討論。我們知道缺工時代的來臨，不只臺灣缺工，其實在我們鄰近的國家、全世界都面臨到相同的問題。勞動部對於缺工的議題已經檢討了很多次，包括開放農業移工或旅宿業移工，甚至在上個月，我們和印度簽署MOU的狀況，我們知道那個是一個假訊息，但是友善的移工聘僱流程怎麼樣才可以讓勞、雇主達到雙贏的狀態，是我們非常關心的。","針對不久前的一個遊行，新聞特別指出，直聘中心只專注在公文的行政程序上面，沒有顧慮到勞工生活適應的輔導，事實上是不是這個樣子？它也講到翻譯人員也缺乏，甚至有匿名的移工表示，在全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭，唯一的服務就是每一周固定通知你要去簽名，不然你就沒有辦法繼續拿到聘僱函。所以移工團體走上街頭提出五大訴求，包含政府跟政府直接聘僱、就服站雙語人員的增加、直聘中心整合各機關文件，甚至它特別強調文件流程的簡化，還有函示法規需要多語言的資訊。其實這個都是針對友善移工服務能量不足的訴求，我想在這裡請教部長，針對簡化流程，還有政府對政府直接聘僱，我們如何來處理他們提出來的這些問題？你怎麼執行呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，譬如說流程簡化，或是他們希望提供更多元的協助，這個我們都會來精進，但是我也必須說明，其實我們現在的直聘中心也提供很多多元的服務，還有便捷的申辦程序給直聘中心的使用者，當然不是每個制度都會讓大家滿意，但是有不足的部分我們都願意來檢討。"],["賴委員惠員：這個直聘中心是在今年11月成立的嘛？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，早就成立了，民國97年就成立了。委員，您剛剛講11月，那是移工留才久用專案服務中心，那個是針對中階的，我們這個移工的直聘是97年就成立了。"],["賴委員惠員：全國只有一個？"],["許部長銘春：全國目前就是一個，它就是一個行政協助，因為基本上現在我們的雇主聘僱移工本來就是多元的，他可以委託仲介，他也可以來直聘……"],["賴委員惠員：是多元化的嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是，多元化的。"],["賴委員惠員：是不是就是針對他們講的？因為這個大概是一個超過500人的抗議行動，是不是就像他們講的，這個直聘中心裡頭也沒有翻譯人員，文件又非常複雜？部長，我跟你講，會後提供資料給我。"],["許部長銘春：我可以提供資料給你，我跟委員報告，其實我們直聘中心的服務滿意度是達97.6%，當然我們現在申辦案件也都是全面線上了，移工的電話諮詢我們也都提供……"],["賴委員惠員：好，部長，沒有問題……"],["許部長銘春：但是有不足的部分，我們都會儘量把它做好。"],["賴委員惠員：我再針對製造業雇主聘僱制度的檢查，我特別把這個制度的討論拉出來。現在全臺移工大概接近75萬人，甚至更超過了，到目前是有多少人？部長，到目前全國的移工有多少人？"],["許部長銘春：75萬。"],["賴委員惠員：好，那是不是署長你來回答？我們全國的移工有75萬人，其中製造業就占了4.7萬人，尤其是看護工，這個是非常非常的重要，他接近3萬人，其他的還有8,000人，這個我們就不管了，可是在8.4萬的失聯移工裡面，越南籍占的最多，我就要請教部長，你們有特別講到製造業雇主聘僱制度，就是如果他的移工跑掉了，你們要把期限從6個月縮短成3個月，還要增加移工名額來作為鼓勵，但這3個月其實還是太長了，你要知道很多製造業工廠的生產線是一刻都不能停的，所以有沒有機會從3個月變為1個月呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，當初因為這個涉及就業服務法的修法，原來是6個月，後來基於缺工的情況，我們把它縮短為3個月，這個會持續檢討啦！其實這3個月的空窗期我們還是在協助，它有兩個面向，第一個，因為現在國內在一些就業的推介上，其實我們有在努力；另外，我們最近有一個新的制度，就是如果他去承接其他轉出的製造業移工，就可以多5%的名額，這部分是可以填補這樣的缺口。"],["賴委員惠員：所以這是一個鼓勵，已經非常明顯了，可以從6個月縮短成3個月，這是我們一個政策性的鼓勵，只是這3個月可以不可以再縮短成1個月呢？你們是不是可以再跨部會討論？這個是本席對你們的要求。","再來，今天我們也針對勞退金的自提可不可以自選來進行討論。就像剛才部長特別提到的，其實每個月雇主已經自己提撥6%了，然後勞工本身也提撥了6%，其實政府的美意非常好，我們希望勞工在他老年的退休裡頭能得到一個很好的保障。可是相對的，我們看了很多很多的資料後，我不得不佩服我們勞動部，基金的部分應該請局長上來報告一下，你對你自己這樣的投資滿不滿意？你還可以保障我們勞工有百分之四點幾的收益，你算是很厲害的！"],["蘇局長郁卿：謝謝委員，我們會持續努力，也會持續精進。"],["賴委員惠員：你手上有配置多少的市場分析人員呢？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們人員相當有限，我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員，同時因為我們人員有限，我們也希望借助國內外很好的資產管理公司來提供協助。"],["賴委員惠員：這個是在後端，我現在是在講前端，前端就是你們怎麼樣慎選並委託投資公司來幫我們操盤，我想知道怎樣的程序？你怎麼有辦法神準的給勞工4%以上的收益呢？"],["蘇局長郁卿：有關國內外受託機構的評選，我們有一定的程序，也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選。針對投資政策，我們一直秉持穩健的原則來進行，希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益，所以我們也不會只看短，而是會看整個趨勢。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我再請教，當然你一定有信心幫勞工爭取到超過4%的獲利，但有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自提呢？有機會嗎？其實自提風險是很高的。"],["許部長銘春：目前自提沒有風險，因為沒有自選。"],["賴委員惠員：因為沒有自提，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：沒有自選。"],["賴委員惠員：對，只有自選。"],["許部長銘春：現在是鼓勵自提。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["許部長銘春：但是我們的基金願景就是統一投資收益，所以現在的自選完全沒有風險，一定是保證收益。這個部分我們……"],["賴委員惠員：所以一定保證嘛？賠錢還是政府來照顧。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們現在透過各種管道，包括也進到大學。因為學生畢業以後都要工作，我們提前進到大學讓學生瞭解，以後你工作可以自提，自提是儲蓄的性質，這樣沒有風險而且政府又保證投資收益，他未來可以長期累積退休的老本。我們會用各種的方式讓他們瞭解自提的好處。"],["賴委員惠員：憑良心講，我個人還是贊成現階段所有的政策。如果我個人可以選擇，我當然是可以選擇我自己運用，但我還是贊成現有的自提自選，希望就像你們的政策。"],["許部長銘春：就是自提，然後我們來投資？"],["賴委員惠員：當然，就是自提由勞動部來投資。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，有請張育美委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.687843750000003,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.75784375,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.79909375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.937843750000003,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.00471875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.143468750000004,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.80409375,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.53534375000001,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.97721875,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.36409375000001,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.41409375,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.71909375,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.75971875000002,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.59409375,"end":176.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.62784375,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.28596875000002,"end":179.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.90159375000002,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.08596875,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.03346875000003,"end":200.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.53971875000002,"end":201.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.72096875000003,"end":203.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.56034375000002,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.57221875000002,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.53784375,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.36034375000003,"end":215.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.56159375000001,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.38409375,"end":224.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.57284375,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.14221875,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.88346875000002,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.60284375,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.02471875000003,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.71659375,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.23971875,"end":257.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.30721875,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.69534375,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.04534375000003,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.13346875,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.99284375,"end":272.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.79846875000004,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.81534375,"end":273.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.69659375000003,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.33721875000003,"end":283.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.96971875,"end":284.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.00346875,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.96534375000005,"end":305.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.75846875,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.48096875000005,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.53534375000004,"end":310.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.53096875,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.78721875,"end":370.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.62284375,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.74784375,"end":413.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.92909375000005,"end":382.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.37159375000005,"end":385.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.82659375000003,"end":389.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.910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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":113.479,"end":141.504,"text":"全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭唯一的服務就是每一週固定的通知你要去簽名不然你就沒有辦法繼續再那個拿到這個聘僱函那所以這個移工團體他走上街了他就是有一個五大的一個訴求他就講說是不是政府跟政府直接的一個聘僱然後就福站的一個酸乙仁眼的一個增加還是職聘中心整合各機關文件"},{"start":143.224,"end":165.242,"text":"甚至他特別強調就是文件流程的一個簡化還有就是韓式法規需要他一個多語言的一個資訊其實這個都是針對的友善移工的一個服務能量不足的一個訴求那我想在這裡請教那個部長就是說針對的這個簡化那個流程還有就是我們"},{"start":166.183,"end":169.369,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":177.335,"end":202.426,"text":"二、委員其實有些比如說流程簡化或是他們希望提供更多的多元的協助這個其實我們都會來精進但是我也必須說你說其實我們現在的職聘中心其實他是也提供很多多元服務還有這個便捷的申辦程序給使用我們職聘中心的那當然不是每個"},{"start":203.629,"end":205.691,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":231.918,"end":245.75,"text":"全國目前就是一個因為他就是一個行政協助啦因為基本上現在我們的僱主他聘僱移工他本來就是多元他可以委託仲介他也可以來執聘是多元化的嘛那是不是就是針對他們講的"},{"start":247.091,"end":248.012,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":264.31,"end":268.052,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條之一"},{"start":281.7,"end":304.759,"text":"但是有不足的部分我們都會盡量來把那我在針對的製造業的一個僱主的一個聘僱的制度的一個檢查我特別就是說把這個制度的一個討論拉出來那現在全台的移工有大概接近75萬了甚至還是更超過了到目前到目前是有多少人"},{"start":307.193,"end":310.894,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":338.821,"end":345.748,"text":"四連的移工裡頭,當然我們知道葉蘭吉佔了最多。我就要請教部長,你們特別講到製造業僱主聘僱的制度,如果他的移工跑掉了,"},{"start":357.72,"end":376.527,"text":"立法院第10屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環"},{"start":380.828,"end":394.513,"text":"而跟委員報告齁因為當初這個因為涉及救衛服務法的修法齁那原來是六個月那後來就是因為基於這個缺口下我們縮短三個月這個會持續檢討啦齁但是就是說這個三個月的空中期其實我們還是在協助還是在協助"},{"start":396.454,"end":398.216,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":420.595,"end":433.325,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文"},{"start":445.934,"end":472.97,"text":"就像剛才部長你特別提到了就是說其實我們每個月就是已經雇主自己提撥6%了然後我們自己本身勞工也提撥了6%那我們其實政府的美意非常好我們希望就是說勞工在他的一個老年的一個退休裡頭是得到了一個很好的一個保障可是相對的就是說我們看到了很多很多的一個資料裡頭"},{"start":473.971,"end":475.351,"text":"二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":495.559,"end":521.719,"text":"謝謝委員我們持續努力我們也會持續精進那你手上有多少的這樣子的一個就是在這個市場的一個分析分析人員這樣的一個配置我們人員相當有限那我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員同時因為我們人員有限我們也希望藉助國內還有國外的很好的資產管理公司來提供協助"},{"start":522.697,"end":544.629,"text":"所以你們還是有這個是在後端喔我現在是講說前端前端就是說你們怎麼樣去慎選就是說那個委託我們的這個投資公司來幫我們就是操盤我想知道這個怎樣的一個程序你怎麼有辦法這樣省準的就是說可以給勞工4%以上的一個收益呢"},{"start":548.379,"end":572.955,"text":"有關國內外的受託機構的評選我們有一定的程序然後我們也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選那投資的政策部分我們一直秉持就是穩健的原則來進行那我們希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益所以我們也不會說只看短我們會看整個趨勢這樣"},{"start":574.056,"end":589.425,"text":"好,看整個趨勢,部長在這裡我再請教就是說當然你一定有信心就是幫勞工爭取到超過4%的一個獲利啦那有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自體呢?有機會嗎?其實這個自體風險是很高的"},{"start":593.223,"end":622.325,"text":"目前自體風險沒有風險自體因為沒有自選因為沒有自體嘛對不對沒有自選對只有自選現在是鼓勵自體對但是還是齁我們就是基金用局統一投資收益啦所以現在的自選完全沒有風險是一定是保證收益是齁所以這個部分所以一定保證嘛就是賠錢還是政府來那個照顧你對我們現在透過各種管道啦齁包括我們現在也進到大學因為讓學生畢業以後大家都要工作"},{"start":622.705,"end":626.706,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":640.931,"end":665.396,"text":"我們會用各種的方式去把這個自體的好處來讓他們了解。其實部長憑良心講,如果我個人的話,我還是贊成現階段所有的一個政策。如果是我個人的話,我可以選擇的話,我當然是可以選擇我自己,我還是贊成現有的一個自體自選,還是希望就是向你們的政策。"},{"start":666.325,"end":666.465,"text":"自體由勞動部來投資"}]}},{"id":"149007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6e2b54716803d258aab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322617961a7114e88395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:20:39 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09:30:48","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":609,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:30:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:20:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時20分）謝謝主席，我們請許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。我們今天要討論勞工退休金條例的這個部分，確實坊間現在有非常多的聲音，就是到底怎麼樣可以對個人的退休生活保障最多，所以剛剛吳玉琴委員也在在提到了自提自選，這是一個很大的題目，覺得我有能力而且有意願，那我能不能夠有更多、更好、更多元的選擇，這是一種。","坊間個人的聲音是一種之外，其實在立法院當中，民眾黨黨團今年9月也提案要提高勞退的雇主強制提撥率從現行的6%直接到9%，但民眾黨主席柯文哲在政見發表會卻說他不會強迫提高，而是要提高企業的租稅優惠。在這樣的狀況下，我是想請教部長，雖然我看過你們用新聞稿的方式對這個提議有一些看法，但你可不可以在備詢台上再告訴我們，針對現在立法院有不同黨團提出了不同的聲音，第一個是提高強制提撥率，第二個是不見得要用強迫的方式，而是用企業稅率優惠的方式，那你怎麼看？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我想每一個黨團或每個委員所提案的都是站在希望……"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都是討論嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但勞動部總是有看法，你覺得可行嗎？我們今天要審理。"],["許部長銘春：我們是認為，目前的階段可能還是比較適宜說我們用鼓勵的，鼓勵勞雇雙方，其實那是最低嘛！"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！現在雇主6%是最低嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，最低，其實你還可以再提高。而現在也有，我們施行到現在，雖然不多，確實也有雇主就是比6%還要高。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是因為你有鼓勵？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你現在的鼓勵方式是什麼？人家說要用稅率優惠，那我們哩？"],["許部長銘春：當然稅率……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現行的方式是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：稅率的優惠，因為這個會牽涉到可能不是勞動部的權責。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這會牽涉到非常多的部會。"],["許部長銘春：對，所以這個如果要……"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且需要精算吧！"],["許部長銘春：要精算，這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：要精算吧！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你到底是提高多少以後會產生多少的效益……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：以至於你要用多少的稅率……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：減少了以後又會造成國庫多少的進出帳不一樣的部分。"],["許部長銘春：我就說這會牽涉到整體財政的問題、稅賦的問題，所以這個部分我們必須就是跨部會，如果針對這個議題要處理，一定是跨部會要來討論，而且更……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但你支持，鼓勵的方向……"],["許部長銘春：對，我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實我們大家這幾年都討論得非常多，這也不是獨創的意見。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們當然會認同說這個是保障，對勞工的權益、對他的退休生活更有保障，但是怎麼更細緻、怎麼對於這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你認為這其中的可行和不可行，直接從6%提高到9%的部分呢？"],["許部長銘春：我是認為不能說一下子就講一個數字，這個必須大家去做一些討論之後才能夠……"],["蘇委員巧慧：勞動部有算過嗎？因為人家黨團都提案了，你有算過從6%直接提高到9%造成的影響是會多大、有多少人會受影響，然後數字是多少？"],["許部長銘春：提1%增加的雇主負擔是31.7億，應該是1個月吧！只要提高1%，對雇主的負擔……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我看到你們的回應，勞動部是表示，以今年6月底勞退新制平均提繳工資4萬3,922元，雇主是740.4萬的勞工提繳勞退金計算的話，如果提高了1個百分點，雇主1年新增加是390億元的法定負擔。"],["許部長銘春：對，1個月31.7億，1年是390億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以直接從6%到9%，要增加1,170億。"],["許部長銘春：對，1,170億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個分擔下去，每個人要負擔的其實也是相當之大，所以會影響的人數是多少？我認為這些東西，我們覺得如果現在勞動部的方向認為是還可以保留的，其實你在審查的過程中，你應該要把資料拿出來，讓大家能夠理解，因為你用總體數字的狀況，大家可能不會有感覺，大家會覺得很好啊！雇主多拿一點，我們的保障就更多一點，沒有問題啊！大家會朝這個方向去想，因為總統大選嘛，最近有很多提出來的政策都是這樣，乍看之下都覺得好像很好，但是精算下去以後，你就會發現其實它的數值差距非常大，影響的層面也是非常廣，而且繞了一圈，最後影響的還是你個人，你自己還是會受影響啊！所以這種我們稱之為包著糖衣毒藥的政策，這個東西你一定需要解釋，解釋雖然很龐雜，可是你還是需要解釋。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我覺得今天如果我們會進行到審查，我要求勞動部就這些部分的數字、影響的範圍應該要能夠提出來，我覺得大家這樣才能客觀討論，不然我們也會覺得雇主提高很好啊！但你不知道那個很好的後面受到了多少的影響，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是第一個，所以要求勞動部在審查的過程中，必須要提出這些數字，這是關於我們今天勞工退休金審查的部分。另外一個也想跟部長這邊請教，我們現在有一個是僑外生來臺就學的部分，其實是越來越多，其中又以越南成長的最多，越南、馬來西亞其實都是現在的大宗，我有兩個部分，上一次因為時間的關係來不及跟部長就教，比較細緻一點，想請問你一下，既然我們鼓勵這些僑外生，尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到臺灣就學，而且看起來是有成效的，現在人數都是達到數千人，我看馬來西亞今年有5,253人，印尼有2,675人，越南也有到2,331人，其實是非常的高額。光是這三個國家就近萬，那麼有沒有留下來工作的？有吧？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：留下來工作的是多少？"],["許部長銘春：我請主管的單位跟委員報告。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，目前大概每年跟我們提出申請畢業後的工作，大概6,000人左右。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！為什麼是6,000人？因為你只開放6,000人啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["許部長銘春：沒有，報告委員……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊！不是嗎？大家現在就是在討論這個額度啊！因為這個工作評點許可名額是從109年的2,500名、110年4,500名，再到111年、112年，現在是6,000名，我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分。沒關係，我們可以再討論，也許我跟您調的資料不夠精確，我就希望你給我更好的資料，我這邊收到的資料是這樣子，我們也問了很多僑外生，等一下部長可以回答沒有關係。其實來臺就學的僑外生越來越多，越來越多的僑外生也覺得臺灣很好，他甚至想留下來工作，但在申請工作的過程當中有名額的限制，現在的名額開放到6,000名了，可是既然你是歡迎他們來，你何必要有這個限制呢？有關名額，我先跟你討論就是這一點。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，我先說明一下，那個6,000的名額是國發會，它每年針對僑外生的留用有名額的限制，但是我跟委員報告，國發會如果認為需要再增加，我們通通是配合的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在這個題目上面，你的意思是勞動部是末端、你是配合國發會？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是你要反映啊！"],["許部長銘春：但是我也同意未來這個可能……","其實我們在跨部會討論也曾經提出就不要有限額了，未來我們是基於鼓勵……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有啦，我覺得你雖然是末端，但是如果是這樣，我希望勞動部這邊可以做一個調查，變成給國發會的參考，就是僑外生留下來很好，對臺灣的經濟有幫助，對我們國家互相之間的邦誼也有幫助。能不能請你做一個調查，發現各行各業的狀況？而且這些留下來的僑外生，其實不只是初階人力，他們都是技術人才……"],["許部長銘春：是屬於中階的技術人才。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是很好的技術人才，大家不要誤會了，以為他是刻板印象中的外籍移工，完全不是這樣的狀況。"],["許部長銘春：是，不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我覺得這個名額是應該可以討論的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為處於末端的勞動部應該要提供資料給國發會。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，最後，因為占了人家的時間，我只要講一個就好了，我們在鼓勵僑外生來的網站是有一站式的網站，然後是多語式的，可是當僑外生要留下來，能夠找工作、創業，這就屬於勞動部了，但勞動部在網站上面並沒有這種一站式資訊，也沒有多語的部分，我今天不再占用時間，謝謝主席給我時間，我也請勞動部可以對我的辦公室提出一個資料說明，我要求改進，在僑外生留用以及創業的這個部分，我希望有一站式的諮詢管道以及多語言，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：可以，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請賴惠員賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":5.549093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.92409375,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.69409375,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.55659375,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.50471875000001,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.85596875,"end":94.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.23784375000001,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.80221875000001,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.76409375,"end":118.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.47659375,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.04096875,"end":128.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.21346875,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.47909375,"end":140.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.26784375,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.58284375,"end":143.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.36721875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.50221875,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.67096875000001,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.92409375,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.94096875,"end":144.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.41346875000002,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.97034375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.03784375,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.76346875000002,"end":151.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.78034375000001,"end":146.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.54346875000002,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.37034375000002,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.07846875,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.12471875,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.98909375000002,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.81159375000001,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.81096875,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.14846875,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.51096875000002,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.75096875,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.78471875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.17284375,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.88159375,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.74034375000002,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.93409375000002,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.11721875,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.82534375,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.53284375,"end":227.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.86034375000003,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.61471875,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.61784375000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.83284375000002,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.00971875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.56221875000003,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.67971875,"end":269.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.24221875,"end":282.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.50721875,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.70534375,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.59096875,"end":277.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.09284375000004,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28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«勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":181.594,"end":201.585,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會立法院第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立"},{"start":210.09,"end":218.299,"text":"認為不能就是說一下子就講一個數字啦,這個必須大家去做一些討論之後,才能夠...這個我想對我們的"},{"start":233.663,"end":248.658,"text":"提一趴增加的那個僱主的負擔是31.7億一年一個月一個月吧應該是一個月吧你只要提高一趴對僱主的那個"},{"start":249.699,"end":274.173,"text":"我看到你們的回憶碼勞動部是表示說以今年六月底勞退薪至平均提繳工資四萬三千九百二十二元僱主是七百四十點四萬的這個勞工提繳勞退金計算的話如果提高了一個百分點僱主一年薪增加是三百九十億元的法定負擔一個月三十一啦三十一點七一年是三百九十億"},{"start":274.733,"end":275.894,"text":"三、委員三百九十一、委員一千一百七十一、委員一千一百七十一等"},{"start":295.967,"end":297.769,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":323.644,"end":343.833,"text":"而影響的層面也是非常的廣而且繞了一圈最後影響的還是你個人你自己還是會受影響到所以我們稱之為這種叫做包著糖衣毒藥的政策這個東西你一定需要解釋解釋雖然很龐雜可是你還是需要解釋所以我覺得今天如果我們會進行到審查的部分的話我要求勞動部就這些部分數字影響的範圍應該要能夠提出來我覺得大家這樣才能客觀討論"},{"start":349.795,"end":352.156,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第三十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案。"},{"start":365.581,"end":371.504,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":387.452,"end":402.819,"text":"既然我們鼓勵這些橋外生尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到了臺灣就學而且看起來是有成效的現在人數都是達到數千人現在的話我看馬來西亞今年的話有5253人那印尼的話有2675人越南也有到2331人其實是非常非常的高額"},{"start":412.383,"end":414.303,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":437.708,"end":444.494,"text":"你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊不是嗎大家現在就是在討論這個額度啊因為我們現在這個工作評點許可名額的話是從109年的2500名110年4500名再到111、112年現在是6000名啊那我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分因為我沒有關係我們可以再討論啦也許我的資料齁跟您調的不夠精確那我就希望你給我更好的資料"},{"start":464.671,"end":471.528,"text":"我這邊收到的資料是這樣子就是我們也是問了很多橋外生等一下布朗你可以回答沒有關係就是"},{"start":472.911,"end":496.681,"text":"喬外森其實是來臺就學越來越多越來越多的喬外森也覺得臺灣很好他甚至想留下來工作但在申請工作的過程當中有一個名額的限制那現在的名額現在開放到六千了好可是如果你既然是歡迎他們來的話你何必要有這個限制呢這個名額我先跟你討論就這一點這個謝謝委員齁我先說明一下那個六千的名額齁"},{"start":497.361,"end":502.784,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":520.254,"end":522.356,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":537.449,"end":564.582,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":564.642,"end":567.125,"text":"最後因為佔人家的時間我只要講一個就好了我們喬外森在鼓勵喬外森來的這個網站是有一站式的網站然後是多語式的可是我們這個當喬外森要留下來能夠找工作創業這就屬於勞動部了啦"},{"start":580.979,"end":604.315,"text":"勞工部在網站上並沒有一站式資訊也沒有多語的這個部分那我今天不再佔用時間但是謝謝主席給我時間那我也請勞動部這邊可以對我這邊辦公室提出一個資料的說明那我要求改進在橋外山留用以及創業的這個部分我希望有一站式的資訊管道以及多語言謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6e275f41952e69f93ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03227c45cb4d80bcee6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"09:09:26 - 09:20:33","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":667,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:20:33+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:09:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":129,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（9時9分）謝謝主席，我請我們許部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["吳委員玉琴：部長早。今天是在討論勞工退休金條例，總共有15個提案，在這些提案裡面有一個很大的重點，就是勞工自提自選的部分，那我就這個部分來跟你討論。上一次10月25號我在質詢的時候，其實也針對自提自選的部分有跟部長做了一些討論，今天要跟部長討論的是勞退新制裡面相關的一個概念，到底是不是適合？因為你在報告裡面也特別提到對於自提自選的部分抱持開放的態度……"],["許部長銘春：對、對。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們就一起來討論。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：我自己在整理這樣的概念，像社會保險跟商業保險到底有哪些不同，部長是法律專家，像這樣的一個所謂的社會保險，最重要是增進我們的社會安全，由政府擔任保險人或委託民間來辦理，而且這個保費也是量能付費，社會保險一定要有強制性，符合資格就要納保，不得拒保；商業保險當然不一樣，商業保險比較沒有強制性，可以在評估風險之後拒保。最終還有一個差異，就是我們政府負最終的責任，所以有政府的角色在裡頭，商業保險大概沒有人敢做這種最終的保證。您自己認為勞退新制看起來有沒有像是保險公司創設年金保險的商品？像嗎？你覺得……"],["許部長銘春：當然不像。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們推動的社會保險應該不是商業保險。"],["許部長銘春：絕對不是。"],["吳委員玉琴：性質還是有一點不同。"],["許部長銘春：不同。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們特別想跟您談自提、自選這個議題，您剛剛也在報告說這是可以討論的。我發現有好幾個委員的版本也都有提到，因為6%是雇主提撥的，目前沒有人討論要交給代操業者來做，沒有人這樣提，大概都針對自提，希望未來有自選的部分。在勞退新制裡面自提、自選的概念架構下，跟儲蓄險、基金的投資比較，會有幾個問題跟幾個不同的狀態。勞退新制還是比較屬於強制性的，雇主提撥6%，它是不可以任意調動的，但是勞工自提的部分是可以調整的，我可以自提2%、3%、4%到6%，這個部分也有保本，有強迫儲蓄的概念，只是現在沒有開放自選。在儲蓄險或是基金投資上就比較開放，可以自由解約，不能強迫你購買，保費也是由他們自訂，如果要調整可能要另外再購買新的保約。這個部分看起來跟勞退新制裡面的基金是不一樣的概念。"],["許部長銘春：不同。"],["吳委員玉琴：三個性質還是有差異性。如果把勞退新制自提的部分當作基金投資操作，這樣OK嗎？你的看法呢？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們說抱持開放的態度是願意多聽大家的意見，其實這個議題一直以來……"],["吳委員玉琴：討論很久，你聽到什麼樣的聲音？"],["許部長銘春：對，我聽到的當然勞團是抱持比較保守的意見。"],["吳委員玉琴：是有疑慮的。"],["許部長銘春：他們是有疑慮的。他們大概有幾個重點，第一個是認為整個勞退基金目前的投資績效……"],["吳委員玉琴：好像還不錯。"],["許部長銘春：還不錯，沒有比民間差。就像委員剛剛講的，它是社會保險，所以必須維持一定的……"],["吳委員玉琴：而且政府負最終的責任。"],["許部長銘春：扮演社會的角色，所以應該以長期穩定投資來保障，就是我們剛剛講的保本，它其實是保本，在保本的情況下才能保障勞工退休之後的經濟安全。第二個，他們認為如果要自選的話就回歸市場機制，它其實會像委員剛剛提到商品的部分，如果要自選的話，可以自己藉由這個回歸市場，由業者推出好的商品……"],["吳委員玉琴：我們就可以自選。"],["許部長銘春：勞工可以自己……"],["吳委員玉琴：這個商品的部分……"],["許部長銘春：他可以運用自己的積蓄、金錢投資。再來還有一個他比較擔心的是，自選的投資基金將來會不會淪為民間業者調節資金的工具？"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["許部長銘春：他們比較保守。"],["吳委員玉琴：這是勞團的擔心啦。"],["許部長銘春：當然支持的會認為自選就是我自己負擔風險嘛，我自己拿錢，自選是我自己願意提撥的，不是強制，我也願意自擔風險。"],["吳委員玉琴：我就是要問部長這件事，通常投資基金的時候，基金公司都一直提醒有賺有賠，賺錢、賠錢都算自己的，勞退新制的自提自選如果類似投資基金，我自選去投資了，那賠錢算誰的？賺當然是自己的，賠錢算政府的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，這要算自選勞工的。"],["吳委員玉琴：自選的話就是個人要負擔啊，所以勞工也要負擔這樣的風險，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，他跟我們現在的……"],["吳委員玉琴：目前的勞退新制是……"],["許部長銘春：不一樣，我們這是保證收益，一定是保本。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["許部長銘春：但如果開放自提自選的話，就自選這部分就是自己負擔風險。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以未來的設計可能要更複雜了，如果要做這樣的設計的時候。"],["許部長銘春：會比較複雜。不過其實我們做過調查，就是去年做的，雖然有四成三的勞工贊成自提自選，但當你進一步問他說你會不會選擇自選，他就會說那他還要看商品。"],["吳委員玉琴：因為商品的複雜度也是……"],["許部長銘春：只有大概9%勞工說他一定會自選，但是73%還是保留，他說到時候是不是自提之後會自選，還要看投資的商品，標的是如何。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們熟悉或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎？這都是下一個問題。但是我在10月25號也跟部長討論過目前自提的狀況，自提的數量大概是11.52%，大概有83萬人。"],["許部長銘春：已經14%了，到今年有105萬人。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，所以有提升了。但是當時2022年的勞退新制自提勞工月平均工資是6萬3,000元左右，一般的提繳工資大概是4萬元，所以是比較高所得的勞工，大概高1.5倍左右啦；另外問勞工未提繳退休金的理由是什麼？答案是薪水不夠，占了1/4左右，所以這也看得出來，可能薪水低或低於4萬以下的勞工，要教他提撥再自提，這部分的勞工可能會有生吃都不夠了還要曬乾這種心態。如果我們針對自提自選的再給予相關的這個，會不會造成我們是在鼓勵富者越富，或是逆所得、所得逆分配的一個概念？可能這裡要特別注意。部長，你的想法如何？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為自提的退休金是屬於個人專戶，就是提到個人專戶，其實它就是一個累積儲蓄的性質。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以不會影響到別人？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得是不會影響到別人，是個人自己的儲蓄，他透過這樣來累積儲蓄，然後提升個人退休所得，我覺得這個應該是沒有所謂逆所得或分配不均的問題。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，下一個就是最後一張，剛剛部長也提到社會保險是增進社會安全，整個是希望穩定，我看到新制勞退基金的規模大概3兆，私校的退撫金是741億，比起來規模實在是差異太大，一個是大戶，一個是散戶，而且新制的投資效益，2021年的數字是9.66，私校退撫基金的投資，大概穩健型的有到8.52，我們沒有比較差。"],["許部長銘春：絕對沒有。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以也呼應部長剛剛講的，因為社會保險是社會安全的延續……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：也希望退休後能夠有好的經濟安全。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：如果真的要做投資，那可能就去洽商業保險的部分。我想這個部分，如果有能力來處理就是回到商業性的，而這邊就是讓我們確保每個勞工退休的時候他有一筆基金，可以讓他有經濟安全的一個保障。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以我想這個概念也是跟您做討論，我相信就開放的討論，我們就一起針對自提自選的部分來做這樣的討論，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["吳委員玉琴：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝吳委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.982218750000001,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.05659375,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.85346875,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.67596875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.38096875000001,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.88846875,"end":102.14159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.31659375000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.67034375,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.10846875000001,"end":127.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.85471875000002,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.23409375,"end":178.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.77534375000002,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.03971875000002,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.05784375000002,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.88034375,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.84096875,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.77346875,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.17409375000003,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.19096875000002,"end":245.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.25846875000002,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.51159375,"end":277.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.17721875,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.92346875,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.07409375000003,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.84596875,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.77659375,"end":282.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.41721875,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.59846875,"end":285.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.81346875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.87221875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.31471875,"end":294.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.83721875000003,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.16159375,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.53659375,"end":304.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":305.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.61596875000004,"end":347.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.60909375,"end":326.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.45659375,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.89909375,"end":331.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.30159375,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.35221875,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.83284375,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.36409375,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.08096875,"end":356.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.75159375000004,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.05034375,"end":362.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.84346875,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.52659375,"end":392.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.67846875000004,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.55221875,"end":390.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.49284375,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.76284375,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.90596875,"end":400.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.17159375,"end":398.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.27659375,"end":400.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.42409375000005,"end":400.45784375000005},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自選回歸市場機制 自選回歸市場機制"},{"start":334.551,"end":336.353,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":352.466,"end":355.428,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":376.98,"end":384.029,"text":"二、委員勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":395.043,"end":395.603,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":411.514,"end":424.039,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":441.696,"end":444.821,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":457.859,"end":468.063,"text":"投資的商品是那個標的是如何我們熟悉嗎或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎這個是下一個都是下一個問題但是我在上次10月25號也跟部長討論過有關這個所謂目前的自體的狀況當然自體的數量大概是11.5"},{"start":476.667,"end":487.209,"text":"第五十二條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條及第五十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":505.433,"end":509.295,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":521.242,"end":523.244,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":542.185,"end":543.626,"text":"議員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":563.839,"end":567.141,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":590.616,"end":610.073,"text":"我看到新智勞退基金的規模大概三兆那失效的一個退補金是741億這比起來其實是規模差異太大一個是大戶一個是散戶那所以基本上這個投資而且我們的新智的投資的基金效益"},{"start":610.653,"end":634.798,"text":"收益也2021年的數字是9.66那私下退撫基金的一個投資大概穩健型的大概也有到8.52我們沒有比較差所以剛剛也會呼應部長剛剛講的因為這社會保險是一個社會安全的延續也是希望退休後能夠有好的這個經濟安全"},{"start":636.098,"end":636.758,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具"}]}},{"id":"15352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15352","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855f8a018c8dfe1c04445fc32f41448fc046d53a332764a5355a570682bb80c3515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-13","start_time":"2023-12-13T08:30:16+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:45:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":11684,"委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":2744.361,"end":2746.543,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":2760.817,"end":2773.341,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":2790.953,"end":2793.156,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":2807.177,"end":2817.361,"text":"投資的商品是那個標的是如何我們熟悉嗎或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎這個是下一個都是下一個問題但是我在上次10月25號也跟部長討論過有關這個所謂目前的自體的狀況當然自體的數量大概是11.5"},{"start":2825.964,"end":2836.647,"text":"第五十二條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立"},{"start":2854.733,"end":2858.239,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2870.137,"end":2872.118,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":2891.802,"end":2921.065,"text":"議員,您的想法?委員,因為這個自選的部分,自體的部分,自體的退休金,它是屬於個人的專戶,就提到個人專戶,其實它就是一個累積儲蓄的性質,所以不會影響到別人,我覺得是不會影響到別人,它是各自的一個儲蓄,所以我覺得它當然透過這樣來累積它的儲蓄,然後提升個人退休所得,"},{"start":2921.525,"end":2946.332,"text":"我覺得這個應該是沒有沒有太沒有影響到其他比較低所得人的問題好來那下一個就是最後一張我想剛剛部長也提到社會保險是增進社會安全那整個是希望穩定那所以像我們我看到新治勞退基金的規模大概三兆那失效的一個退補金是741億"},{"start":2949.453,"end":2972.171,"text":"這比起來其實是規模差一太大,一個是大戶一個是散戶,那所以基本上這個投資,而且我們的新制的投資的基金效益,收益也2021年的數字是9.66那私校退輔基金的一個投資大概穩健型的大概也有到8.52,那我們沒有比較差"},{"start":2972.731,"end":2978.394,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條及第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":3000.359,"end":3005.601,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一 其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3031.062,"end":3053.291,"text":"處委員好部長好部長我們今天要討論這個勞工退休金條例的這個部分那其實大家確實坊間現在有非常多的聲音嘛就是到底怎麼樣可以對個人的退休生活保障最多所以剛剛吳育琴委員也在在的提到了自提自選這是一個很大的題目就覺得我有能力而且我有意願那我能不能夠有更多更好更多元的選擇這是一種嘛"},{"start":3054.992,"end":3067.719,"text":"第二十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。netesa,您的聲音是一種之後那其實在立法院當中民眾黨的黨團那今年九月也提案他就說要提高直接要提高勞退的雇主強制提撥率從6%現行的6%直接到9%"},{"start":3072.001,"end":3077.807,"text":"民眾黨主席柯文哲卻在政見發表會是說他不會強迫提高而是要提供企業的租稅優惠"},{"start":3095.604,"end":3121.206,"text":"企業租稅優惠。」對,那在這樣的狀況下我是想請教部長啦雖然我有看過你們用新聞稿的方式對這個提議做了一些看法但你會不會在備詢台上你再告訴我們你針對現在有立法院有不同的黨團提出了不同的聲音在這樣的狀況第一個是提高強制提撥率那第二個是"},{"start":3121.866,"end":3149.822,"text":"不見得要用強迫的方式而是用企業稅率優惠的方式。那你怎麼看?其實包委我想每一個黨頭每個委員所提案都是站在希望大家都是討論嘛對但是勞動部總是有看法我們是認為目前的階段可能還是比較適宜說我們用鼓勵鼓勵勞僱雙方其實那是最低吧"},{"start":3150.282,"end":3160.205,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條"},{"start":3179.79,"end":3183.454,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3203.593,"end":3216.479,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":3232.087,"end":3239.856,"text":"認為不能就是說一下子就講一個數字啦,這個必須大家去做一些討論之後才能夠...這個我想對我們的"},{"start":3255.643,"end":3270.637,"text":"提一趴增加的那個僱主的負擔是31.7億一年一個月一個月吧應該是一個月吧你只要提高一趴對僱主的那個"},{"start":3271.698,"end":3296.161,"text":"我看到你們的回應嘛勞動部是表示說以今年六月底勞退薪至平均提繳工資四萬三千九百二十二元僱主是七百四十點四萬的這個勞工提繳勞退金計算的話如果提高了一個百分點僱主一年薪增加是三百九十億元的法定負擔一個月三十一啦三十一點七一年是三百九十億"},{"start":3296.761,"end":3297.902,"text":"三、委員劉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3317.944,"end":3321.065,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":3346.974,"end":3359.223,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":3371.792,"end":3374.133,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第三十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3387.561,"end":3401.006,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第"},{"start":3409.449,"end":3425.956,"text":"既然我們鼓勵這些橋外生尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到了臺灣就學而且看起來是有成效的現在人數都是達到數千人現在的話我看馬來西亞今年的話有5253人那印尼的話有2675人越南也有到2331人其實是非常非常的高額"},{"start":3433.899,"end":3436.28,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3459.705,"end":3486.15,"text":"你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊不是嗎大家現在就是在討論這個因為我們現在這個工作評點許可名額的話是從一百零九年的兩千五百名一百一十年四千五百名再到一一一一二年現在是六千名啊那我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分因為我沒有關係我們可以再討論啦也許我的資料齁跟您調的不夠精確那我就希望你給我更好的資料"},{"start":3486.65,"end":3493.527,"text":"我這邊收到的資料是這樣子就是我們也是問了很多橋外生等一下布朗你可以回答沒有關係就是"},{"start":3494.91,"end":3518.153,"text":"喬外森其實是來臺就學越來越多越來越多的喬外森也覺得臺灣很好他甚至想留下來工作但在申請工作的過程當中有一個名額的限制那現在的名額現在開放到六千了好可是如果你既然是歡迎他們來的話你何必要有這個限制呢這個名額我先跟你討論就這一點這個謝謝委員齁我先說明一下那個六千的名額齁"},{"start":3519.394,"end":3520.174,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3542.248,"end":3543.85,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3559.528,"end":3562.009,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":3586.638,"end":3589.101,"text":"最後因為佔人家的時間我只要講一個就好了我們喬外森在鼓勵喬外森來的這個網站是有一站式的網站然後是多語式的可是我們這個當喬外森要留下來能夠找工作創業這就屬於勞動部了啦"},{"start":3602.819,"end":3603.319,"text":"二、委員勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3630.894,"end":3631.754,"text":"謝衣鳯等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3656.397,"end":3683.031,"text":"今天我們在審查勞工退休金的條例這個議題之前想就移工的一個政策的部分等一下等一下等一下我的時間暫停好謝謝要針對的就是移工的一個政策如何更友善來跟部長做一個那個討論因為我們知道缺工時代的一個"},{"start":3685.228,"end":3709.995,"text":"來臨不只臺灣缺工其實在我們鄰近的國家全世界都面臨到相同的一個問題那我們相信就是勞動部對缺工的議題我們已經檢討了很多次了包括開放農業的那個移工還是那個理數業的一個移工甚至就是在上個月就是我們印度的NOU的一個簽署的一個狀況那我們知道那個是一個假信息"},{"start":3710.655,"end":3724.705,"text":"但是友善的這個移工的一個聘僱流程怎麼樣才可以讓就是勞僱主都達到雙贏的一個狀態這個是我們非常關心的那在這個不久的一個那個遊行裡頭"},{"start":3726.006,"end":3728.349,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3750.083,"end":3778.088,"text":"全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭唯一的服務就是每一週固定的通知你要去簽名不然你就沒有辦法繼續再那個拿到這個聘僱函那所以這個移工團體他走上街了他就是有一個五大的一個訴求他就講說是不是政府跟政府直接的一個聘僱然後就福站的一個酸乙仁眼的一個增加還是職聘中心整合各機關文件"},{"start":3779.828,"end":3782.631,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3802.788,"end":3805.974,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3813.939,"end":3839.027,"text":"瓜委員其實有些比如說流程簡化或是他們希望提供更多的多元的協助這個其實我們都會來精進但是我也必須說你說其實我們現在的職聘中心其實他是也提供很多多元服務還有這個便捷的申辦程序給使用我們職聘中心的那當然不是每個"},{"start":3840.233,"end":3842.293,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3868.523,"end":3882.342,"text":"全國目前就是一個因為他就是一個行政協助啦因為基本上現在我們的僱主他聘僱移工他本來就是多元他可以委託仲介他也可以來執聘是多元化的嘛那是不是就是針對他們講的"},{"start":3883.624,"end":3883.944,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":3900.917,"end":3904.318,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3918.304,"end":3941.366,"text":"但是有不足的部分我們都會盡量來把它做好。那我在針對的製造業的一個僱主的一個聘僱的制度的一個檢查我特別就是說把這個制度的一個討論拉出來那現在全台的移工有大概接近75萬了甚至還是更超過了到目前是有多少人?"},{"start":3943.777,"end":3947.438,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3973.225,"end":3975.866,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3994.315,"end":4016.051,"text":"你們從六個月把它縮短成三個月移工名額你們要增加這個移工的名額來做一個就是等於是鼓勵那有沒有機會這個三個月其實還是太長了你要知道就是說很多製造業他們甚至他們的工廠其實他們的生產線一刻都不能停有沒有機會就是這三個月變為一個月呢"},{"start":4017.712,"end":4031.128,"text":"跟委員報告齁,因為當初這個因為涉及救危服務法的修法齁,那原來是六個月,那後來就是因為基於這個缺口下我們縮短了三個月。這個會持續檢討啦齁,但是就是說這個三個月的空中期其實我們還是在協助。還是在協助。"},{"start":4033.05,"end":4034.811,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":4057.222,"end":4066.87,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":4082.543,"end":4109.552,"text":"就像剛才部長你特別提到了就是說其實我們每個月就是已經雇主自己提撥6%了然後我們自己本身勞工也提撥了6%那我們其實政府的美意非常好我們希望就是說勞工在他的一個老年的一個退休裡頭是得到了一個很好的一個保障可是相對的就是說我們看到了很多很多的一個資料裡頭"},{"start":4110.572,"end":4134.726,"text":"其實我不得不佩服我們勞動部我們這個基金我們應該請我們的局長上來報告一下你對你自己這樣的一個投資那你滿不滿意你還可以保障我們的勞工有四點幾趴的一個收益你算很厲害謝謝委員我們持續努力我們也會持續精進這樣"},{"start":4136.195,"end":4158.326,"text":"那你手上有多少的這樣子的一個就是在這個市場的一個分析分析人員啊這樣的一個配置我們人員相當有限啊那我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員同時因為我們人員有限我們也希望藉助國內還有國外的很好的資產管理公司來提供協助"},{"start":4159.301,"end":4181.233,"text":"所以你們還是有這個是在後端喔我現在是講說前端前端就是說你們怎麼樣去慎選就是說那個委託我們的這個投資公司來幫我們就是操盤我想知道這個怎樣的一個程序你怎麼有辦法這樣省準的就是說可以給勞工4%以上的一個收益呢"},{"start":4184.98,"end":4209.553,"text":"有關國內外的受託機構的評選我們有一定的程序然後我們也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選那投資的政策部分我們一直秉持就是穩健的原則來進行那我們希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益所以我們也不會說只看短我們會看整個趨勢這樣"},{"start":4210.674,"end":4225.848,"text":"好,看整個趨勢,部長在這裡我再請教就是說當然你一定有信心就是幫勞工爭取到超過4%的一個獲利啦那有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自體呢?有機會嗎?其實這個自體風險是很高的"},{"start":4229.827,"end":4230.907,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4253.916,"end":4255.436,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4277.543,"end":4278.323,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4303.45,"end":4305.853,"text":"自體由勞動部來投資。謝謝主席,謝謝。謝謝主席,請勞動部許部長。有請部長。"},{"start":4333.069,"end":4357.117,"text":"三、委員好。好,部長早。今日有媒體對那個退休率當作議題撰寫系列的報導。由於現在醫療進步、科技發達,人人都是可以成為百歲人的候選人。為預備將來的長壽生活、健康財務、社會連結這些都缺一不可。根據遠見雜誌的調查,國人退休之後的養老資金"},{"start":4361.258,"end":4381.952,"text":"主要來自於退休年金制度有63.3% 其次為儲蓄或定存56.3%基金股票等投資是50.7%逐漸國人的退休準備高度仰賴政府退休年金的制度"},{"start":4382.893,"end":4395.685,"text":"然而我們根據勞動部的統計勞退新制實施了18年全台740萬的勞工預計今年勞退自體率只有14.69%只有"},{"start":4399.167,"end":4413.672,"text":"十四點六九不到15%表示仍然有多達六百萬的勞工85%的勞工不願意自提請問部長那勞動部是否有進一步了解勞工自提意願低落的原因是什麼原因"},{"start":4414.752,"end":4437.748,"text":"報告人其實因為既然這個叫自提啦就是說他自願提交就是說要尊重他的意願啦那每個人他為什麼沒有來自提可能第一個他是不是經濟的負擔比較低薪那薪水拿出來通朋友有些人是他可能是自己就去找商業保險或者到市場上去做"},{"start":4438.589,"end":4439.23,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":4448.43,"end":4451.131,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4475.936,"end":4480.897,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十三條之一"},{"start":4498.423,"end":4502.007,"text":"勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4516.34,"end":4519.283,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4539.56,"end":4554.736,"text":"這遠低於國人平均總薪資五萬七嘛我們不是說六成嗎六成就要三萬四那我們只有兩萬五所以少了一萬塊那通過膨脹投資市場波動這個影響納入呢增加國人退休後的財務風險"},{"start":4556.918,"end":4582.892,"text":"對此,勞動部近來就有表示啊,正在收集各方的意見,兼顧企業經營之下,企業經營就是這個我們怎樣的去一些的撥補。朝向勞工退休保障有更好的研議制度,那再問部長,那目前有哪些調整方向呢?兩萬五嘛,現在收入都不到兩萬五,就退休後,可是我們大概需要是三萬四,差了差不多一萬塊。"},{"start":4585.95,"end":4600.677,"text":"對,二、委員我們現在其實算一算有啊,對啊,我們現在平均二、二、二年的平均我們其實勞保還要再加勞退喔對啊,我們算一算,對,報告委員我跟你說我們的所得替代勞退六千五嘛"},{"start":4602.065,"end":4624.157,"text":"因為很多人不提撥,剛剛講85人不提撥,所以他以提撥零來算啦85%不提撥,當然有提撥是不止啦自體是另外一回事,我們有固體固體6%是一定要提的喔所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加勞退自體可以零啊,可以6加6但是員工可以零啊,85%是零欸"},{"start":4631.209,"end":4654.316,"text":"自己提啊!勞工顧主六趴啦我知道我跟你說我們的所得替代率喔如果以平均月頭保薪資目前來講大概三萬七我們所得替代率有百分之六十八我們的退休齁可以領的是三萬四千三百八十六哪裡退休2022年是一萬八加六千五啊一二零二年這個啊加起來勒"},{"start":4660.643,"end":4664.126,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":4688.667,"end":4689.668,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4706.189,"end":4729.746,"text":"報告委我們的重點在這裡啦我們是103才施行勞退啦所以我們到現在還不到十年啦所以勞退的平均月領六千五啦可是你有算三十年不止啦你把三十年再加二十年進去不止你平均月領不止這樣啦那我們現在就有人退休啦那兩萬五還是不夠所以我說比較基礎不能就要看啦"},{"start":4731.347,"end":4742.652,"text":"國外他可能是比較久了但是我們勞退薪資是103才開始所以我們今天會得出一個勞退平均月領6000勞退薪資18年了沒有啦"},{"start":4747.35,"end":4751.973,"text":"勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文"},{"start":4776.499,"end":4778.04,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":4796.949,"end":4801.431,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":4815.717,"end":4843.839,"text":"女性治理白皮書的上司公司中28個產業只有三個產業沒有女性領導人在疫情期間穩健成長女性領導人企業整個產業比是毫不遜色可見女力對於經濟影響已經全面擴散我們知道哈佛大學有個教授叫戈丁他認為來了解女性勞動市場是非常charming的是非常重要而且迷人的"},{"start":4845.24,"end":4848.841,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":4866.145,"end":4892.182,"text":"一路成長到這個五成2013年的五成目前是51.5日本韓國是53.5和53.3比我們高差不多2%那新加坡六成四那北歐國家是七成一所以數據上來看我們在30歲以後近一半的女性沒有投入勞動職場請問部長有沒有了解原因啊"},{"start":4893.183,"end":4894.245,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":4905.643,"end":4908.424,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4931.894,"end":4949.339,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利及衛"},{"start":4954.48,"end":4957.203,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4974.161,"end":4975.522,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4989.921,"end":4997.27,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文"},{"start":5010.965,"end":5027.61,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案："},{"start":5030.211,"end":5032.713,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":5057.133,"end":5058.174,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5076.222,"end":5100.295,"text":"兩種國家我們不是一樣都一樣的這種東方文化都很像嗎以教育孩子為主所以我覺得我應該要建議勞動部要關心這個托育資源的部件以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業你說對嗎所以不是只有你的問題而已不是勞動部還要結合其他部分對好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":5112.754,"end":5126.11,"text":"下一位吳欣英委員謝主席有請勞動部長許部長"},{"start":5132.376,"end":5152.919,"text":"議員好,已經快過一年了,然後也可能是我最後一次跟部長質詢了。那我想請問一下部長,覺得說大家今年討論的年度關鍵字,你有沒有知道這個年度關鍵字是什麼?什麼年度關鍵字?缺了。是的,是。今年的關鍵字是缺。"},{"start":5154.093,"end":5176.465,"text":"不只是五缺加上缺氮缺藥對年輕人來說因為通膨物價成長大家也感覺到缺錢那當然貨物的這個負擔率房屋率的這個比例也創下歷史新高也讓年輕人感覺到缺房那勞保也即將破產那年輕人會更覺得說缺退休金"},{"start":5177.745,"end":5183.713,"text":"那依據調查呢,國人退休率連續三年不及格,其中是未滿30到39歲的右偏低,只有52分。"},{"start":5189.966,"end":5211.452,"text":"那國人雖然年紀增大,越來越接近退休的年齡,才剛開始準備退休金,這時候已經晚了十到二十年了。所以呢,我本席認為說政府應該鼓勵國人立即更早的準備退休金,透過時間以及複利的效果,退休金不是一比一的增加,而是倍數的增加。"},{"start":5212.552,"end":5233.838,"text":"今天想跟部長分享本席辦公室的視算,這個福利的威力。比如說,如果勞工25歲的時候開始提6%,每年只有3萬塊的薪水,而且假設是說他到60歲的時候,他的薪水完全都不成長的前提之下,"},{"start":5234.878,"end":5246.287,"text":"此等於說勞工每個月只要花一千八百元退休之後每個月就可以領多於這個六千五百元那一塊錢就等於變成三點六塊錢"},{"start":5249.434,"end":5275.757,"text":"可是很可惜的就是勞退薪資這18年來呢自提的比例只有14%每年成長率不到1%那勞動部的擬定未來的三年自提目標呢其實未來是每年成長大概1.5%可是實際上等於說這代表說在2025的時候呢總額才是在17.7%那本席認為其實這還是太慢了那如果每年是"},{"start":5276.357,"end":5280.14,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":5294.833,"end":5315.585,"text":"二十五年到百分之十七點七的話還是相當的慢。那因為就是說一般民眾的這個所謂的financial literacy就是財經的一些理財的知識是不足的。所以我也需要說部長從政策這個部分能多於關心。那我是覺得說要提高字體比率呢必須要對症下藥。"},{"start":5316.946,"end":5338.675,"text":"而本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料做出以下的這個圖表那觀察到兩個事件就是首先像剛所提到的自體比率目前為止達高六百萬的勞工沒有自體那第二就是說這個低薪的困境薪資越高自體反而越多"},{"start":5340.836,"end":5360.544,"text":"所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自體比率那本期建議勞動部可以參考這個農退條例勞工為自體退休金政府應該給予更多的獎勵"},{"start":5362.948,"end":5382.961,"text":"農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自體搭配政府相對的Matching提撥的獎勵這已經實施了兩年了自體比率就快速提升到了27%接下來想有請主計處上台然後請許部長留步好嗎主計處"},{"start":5395.704,"end":5396.825,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5420.265,"end":5425.189,"text":"立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":5449.256,"end":5462.969,"text":"相對勞保撥補的高達2570億元的話政府應該可以負擔的而且就是勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的我想請問說主計處對這個態度如何?"},{"start":5472,"end":5497.819,"text":"基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體的財政來一起一併做考量可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理以上就可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理因為還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題所以還在考慮當中就是了"},{"start":5498.592,"end":5513.517,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":5516.458,"end":5535.306,"text":"補助五千元等於二點五倍獎金。本席相信如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外勞動部也可以思考僱主提撥超過6%給予企業的稅優。我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉"},{"start":5536.426,"end":5558.755,"text":"然後以整體的政策的配套希望勞動部也可以全盤考量那能提出民眾真正有感的政策那我們全民的這個退休金能提升謝謝您好謝謝委員的提議這個就是要增加自體那個具體的方法那我們未來跟相關部會因為這牽涉到財政相關部會一起來討論謝謝您謝謝吳委員下一位"},{"start":5566.43,"end":5590.237,"text":"陳寅,委員。謝謝主席,麻煩請這個發展署蔡署長。"},{"start":5595.168,"end":5616.302,"text":"有請署長。委員好。署長好。據悉我國即將與印度簽署MOU引進的印度籍勞工。本席並不反對這樣的政策,不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。"},{"start":5618.19,"end":5629.418,"text":"首先我想請教一下印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異?"},{"start":5631.209,"end":5659.024,"text":"跟委員報告因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進那東南亞大概目前據我們所知像新加坡他就有很多那其實印度大概基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟這個宗教習慣的問題那各個國家其實對於這個移工他在本身的一些生活適應的條例都必須要做好一些準備那這基本上在我們在整個評估的過程當中都會去想加注意"},{"start":5659.482,"end":5685.553,"text":"好,因為剛剛你提到語言齁畢竟他們光是這個方言就447種嘛那這個官方承認就22種所以是相當這個在這個語言上是非常的多元化齁那將來這些這個印度籍的勞工主要我另外再請教就是說那他們未來主要是補充什麼樣的這個產業缺工的問題好,謝謝委員你可能要講大聲一點對準麥克風"},{"start":5688.755,"end":5703.132,"text":"跟委員報告齁那個在目前印度未來在哪些產業有這些需求其實目前我們在後續在工作小組會議當中跟各部會其實會做一些討論齁在缺口在哪裡所以你們現在是還不知道"},{"start":5704.433,"end":5725.173,"text":"現在基本上到底未來在哪些開放行業需要由印度的移工來補充這個還要做一些討論那基本上我們在目前第一階段只是就來原國的這個部分做一個評估所以就還沒有還不知道哪些產業缺工要補充哪些產業就先先直接先就是"},{"start":5726.88,"end":5754.999,"text":"對,所以公文報告因為目前我們在整個的過去以往我們在開放的過程當中第一個就是說跟南韓國之間要先有一個合作的意向這個是第一步因為根據媒體的報導可能開放的這個行業啦其實也就是我們常見缺工的行業就是像農業啦製造業還有營造業那由於說這些行業的這些外籍的勞工呢大部分都是居住在"},{"start":5756.08,"end":5763.725,"text":"場區以外的社區。」那針對這個印度籍勞工的生活管理我想了解一下發展署有什麼樣的規劃跟準備"},{"start":5765.273,"end":5785.16,"text":"我們目前在整個印度的移工開放第一個就是說從他的來源跟他勞工素質尤其就是說一些不能影響我們治安這個部分我們會特別注意那在國內目前在整個移工管理上其實都會有一些相關的規範這個目前我們大概都會在後續的一個工作會議當中都會做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":5786.898,"end":5814.252,"text":"所以聽起來好像就是對於他們大部分要居住在場區以外的這些社區在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的一個規劃跟準備?其實大部分就我們的了解以目前國內的運用其實大部分其實雇主都會做一些妥善的安排所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理目前他會做一些規劃那要依照我們的規定來辦理"},{"start":5815.23,"end":5829.764,"text":"所以你們只是規定,然後規劃留給這個僱主他們自己去處理?我們後續其實也會協助。因為我今天其實你不用緊張,我只是提出一些提醒。"},{"start":5831.045,"end":5854.518,"text":"如果只是規定,然後你們沒有及早做一些規劃準備,我是良心的建議你們還是多思考一些,也幫雇主多思考一些,會減少到時候可能會面對的問題。好不好?那再來就是說印度它是一個非常多元文化,然後在這個種族還有甚至在階級嚴格的,就是說甚至階級都嚴格差異的一個國家。"},{"start":5857.981,"end":5860.704,"text":"文字與語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度。在發展署你們有沒有儲備這方面的人才?"},{"start":5870.682,"end":5898.761,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前因為印度確實非常大他的語言真的非常那英文只是其中之一啦齁那目前如果以目前外交部給我們的建議其實後續大概會有一些來源地區會有一些選擇齁那尤其語言這個部分你會優先考量那至於說如果其他語言像印度語這部分也跟委員報告這個我們現在也後續必須要做一些相關的跟學校跟一些相關的一些翻譯的一個資源來做一些合作"},{"start":5900.486,"end":5924.303,"text":"當然每個人第一個想到的會是語言那可能就是翻譯的部分那我想再提醒就是說因為可能在宗教還有生活語言習慣上的這個不同那也不是我們非常熟悉或者其他這個來源國很熟悉的這個地方那所以就是說有關於這個輔導心理諮商"},{"start":5926.625,"end":5927.546,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案案案"},{"start":5945.176,"end":5958.512,"text":"一旦進到台灣,那是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練?那特別是這個職業安全衛生的教育訓練。我不知道你們有沒有已經跟這個職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程?"},{"start":5960.915,"end":5984.758,"text":"對跟委員其實現在我們跟治安署其實在移工不管是來台前或來台後其實治安會這個部分會列入一個重點那未來印度移工也會拿入整體來做一些所以不會只是看務工需要而已都需要整理過好因為我有看到那個我們治安署署長有點頭好那再來我請那個勞保局嘿"},{"start":5989.351,"end":6008.85,"text":"我接下來想就是再提醒一下這個勞保局就是你們投保對象的這個姓名藍衛是不是有適用印度籍的這個勞工因為字源的長度會不會太短以至於說無法登錄聽說這個最長的曾經已經長到有600多字"},{"start":6009.531,"end":6028.693,"text":"所以一般而言在這個印度的這個制度下有一些人的姓名真的很長那如果我們事先就沒有做好這個準備跟因應到時候會不會造成這個電腦資料庫當機那個非常謝謝委員提醒那日後如果說相關移工的引進我們特別來留意"},{"start":6029.056,"end":6030.338,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6044.657,"end":6061.535,"text":"指示提醒勞動部還有各個所屬的機關一定要好好來規劃跟準備。既然行政院已經合訂要與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容,預定在年底前要完成簽署,"},{"start":6062.176,"end":6074.908,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":6088.52,"end":6089.722,"text":"三、委員徐志榮徐樂園等16人擬具"},{"start":6119.262,"end":6141.356,"text":"謝主席,拜託許部長。有請部長。學員好。謝謝委員的支持。"},{"start":6151.735,"end":6174.27,"text":"我們今天主要講這個勞退條例我們主要是說勞工朋友他退休以後勞保跟勞退應該就是他最主要的經濟來源剛剛也聽了所有的所得替代力等等照我們現在有的制度來講"},{"start":6176.65,"end":6201.961,"text":"你就算是領最低工資的,最低工資的應該有三十幾趴吧?應該至少應該有。應該有三百多萬人嘛。就是領最低工資的當勞工當了三十年、三十五年這樣下來。領最低工資大概二十幾趴,我們現在有兩百多萬人。那也還算蠻多的啦。大概占五分之一。"},{"start":6202.762,"end":6217.742,"text":"這樣他們的守得替代率等等這樣算起來夠他們生活嗎?夠他們安心的生活嗎?就是領基本工資的人。他也有可能一直做到退休都還是在領基本工資喔。"},{"start":6219.452,"end":6222.155,"text":"兩萬七八應該還滿滿符符啦我現在的印象是兩萬五的話就有差不多"},{"start":6239.673,"end":6243.936,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6268.354,"end":6287.469,"text":"如果不撥補到這邊我不是反對不撥補到這邊譬如說明年的一千億還可以到其他各部會還有很多地方要用的嘛我的意思就是說好像一直用公務預算撥補的話好像不是真正的解決這個"},{"start":6290.174,"end":6290.875,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6316.418,"end":6317.999,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6343.496,"end":6370.472,"text":"那是不是說如果沒有這個公務預算的撥補我們假設啦沒有公務預算的撥補有沒有什麼其他的方法來可以對這個勞保年金不要這麼快的?對,跟委員報告齁其實目前啦齁大概所有不管是學者專家或各政黨或是政府所研議的齁就是說在討論當中的方案齁"},{"start":6371.707,"end":6391.256,"text":"最簡單最簡單就是撥補一定要有因為我們現在因為我們第一個我們的費率其實最高就到12%第二個我們年資給付率是1.55那這個收支逆差就從106年就開始了發生所以政府撥補這件事情是一定各個版本都一定要有"},{"start":6391.596,"end":6407.984,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生�"},{"start":6416.728,"end":6426.7,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":6432.719,"end":6435.501,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6463.962,"end":6466.124,"text":"三、委員延後退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6478.711,"end":6499.664,"text":"嚴議延長,不是兵役的役,是嚴討看能不能延長。總歸就是說,我是覺得說一直用公務預算,雖然是必須要的,但是越來越多,你看從兩百億、三百億、幾百億,好像數字越來越大了。"},{"start":6501.164,"end":6524.449,"text":"所以這個反正就是開研節流嘛節流可能就是延後退的一種節流方式開研可能就我剛剛講的這個提高勞參力提高勞參力當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的這個變形工時大概講在這邊參考因為有一些勞工朋友跟我提過這個譬如說委託"},{"start":6527.116,"end":6541.252,"text":"我們勞保基金也是有委託代操嘛之前有一些他是想說他自提的部分可不可以他自己他自己去委託民間的一些那個"},{"start":6543.725,"end":6567.803,"text":"帶草單位甚至於政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起一起去委託他他可能認為說他委託的他的獲益比較大但是我知道我們政府會擔心說把他自己退休金的老本不要委託到那個私人的那個部分去以後"},{"start":6568.824,"end":6570.605,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6590.177,"end":6606.85,"text":"所以說就算他提撥的6%跟政府的6%一起給他抄抄到沒有都算零的話他一個月他領幾十萬十幾萬薪水的人他的生活也安全無疑啦所以是不是我們也可以考慮說"},{"start":6609.542,"end":6636.516,"text":"甚至於政府提撥的六八還在勞動部這邊抄他自己提撥的六八他搞不好一個月領薪水二三十萬他提撥六八去這樣代抄的話可能也是一種相當的金額當然他認為說他自己委外的話會議比部裡面抄的多他自己盈虧他自己負責所以這方面是否也可以考慮"},{"start":6638.306,"end":6643.815,"text":"反正他自己去決定嘛。他自己決定他要的話你就自己負責嘛。"},{"start":6646.81,"end":6670.488,"text":"謝謝委員的剛剛的意見我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法那的確就是說如果當然在部裡面是有保障對 那就是說我們會考慮到說畢竟不是所有自選的勞工自體的勞工他可能都是那麼高薪所以有時候他的自體的部分他才是希望有保障"},{"start":6671.289,"end":6691.481,"text":"所以如果說當然你說他自選之後他自擔風險我們都會擔心說像去年那種金融整個金融市場跌了兩三成勞工都很擔心所以我們會多種考量我的意思是說會去提撥給民間操作的人他領的薪水一定是很多的萬一那邊泡湯掉他領的薪水應該都還沒問題"},{"start":6695.203,"end":6713.717,"text":"而其實像這些高薪的他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品也是一個方式那也是一種自選就他其實不一定要進到這個自體裡面來他也可以把自己本來要自體的他其實就可以去購買商品就是金融市場上的商業"},{"start":6714.94,"end":6716.542,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6743.08,"end":6744.921,"text":"陳佳華陳委員歡迎好謝謝主席請部長有請部長陳委員好部長好部長目前我們看到三位總統候選人在談論到勞退新制的問題都是僅說會鼓勵雇主和勞工提撥卻迴避強制提高雇主提撥勞退的修法"},{"start":6772.349,"end":6796.879,"text":"那這樣看起來他們一直應該是沒有想要去解決我們勞工生活而且是退休的生活尤其我們現在看到整個物價上漲的這麼多所以請問勞動部我們從舊制到新制18年過去了時空背景也不同了"},{"start":6797.718,"end":6814.108,"text":"所以針對提高僱主提撥勞退的比例是否應盡速研議提高?那我們要問目前全國勞工可期待預計提高會幾%?那預計什麼時候可以來推行修法?"},{"start":6815.542,"end":6827.938,"text":"報告委員,這個議題我們知道勞工非常關心但是因為這個部分這個強制提撥的部分就是會牽涉到僱主的負擔所以這個部分我們會參考"},{"start":6831.403,"end":6843.593,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":6856.603,"end":6877.733,"text":"會增加雇主負擔﹖我們是認為說可能要再經過討論﹖可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛 對不對也是一直困難的問題但是18年過去了本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來做檢討然後提出來照顧勞工的做法尤其物價上漲這麼的多 是嗎"},{"start":6880.506,"end":6888.194,"text":"報告委員因為這個是牽涉到退休的生活當然我們願意來傾聽勞工的意見也願意說"},{"start":6891.867,"end":6914.807,"text":"正對大家的期待﹖好,那要積極去研議嘛,那你認為什麼時候要來修法呢?大概我是認為這個部分還要經過討論之後,跟各界,請聽各界事情,然後跟勞工雙方大家共同討論之後。那你認為我們總統候選人都沒有具體的去提出他們要做的方法,那勞動部是不是樂得輕鬆呢?"},{"start":6916.516,"end":6918.04,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6926.043,"end":6950.763,"text":"這個也算是一個大議題我覺得大家還是必須去面對但是要去審慎的研議我們沒有說這個議題其實我們一直也了解勞工的期待也很高我們知道了解了還會繼續再了解那請問部長我們現在勞工退休金個人帳戶現在我們的政府是代委操作那請問績效現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":6952.91,"end":6954.191,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6973.6,"end":6998.609,"text":"所以目前沒有要考慮做修改目前我們其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音而且我們也有勞團他是持反對的意見所以我們認為說這個議題我們開放的態度但是請聽各界的聲音說是可以一定比例比如說60%由政府操作其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資"},{"start":7001.407,"end":7003.77,"text":"我想各種意見我們都會來參考,各種意見來參考。"},{"start":7006.751,"end":7007.692,"text":"李慧琼議員李慧琼議員"},{"start":7036.289,"end":7065.328,"text":"可不可以跟勞保來做診病呢?本席是希望能夠有關心私校這些退府的教職員工那這個部分我們勞動部有沒有可以去"},{"start":7066.141,"end":7068.583,"text":"等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7096.361,"end":7098.522,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":7117.253,"end":7123.914,"text":"昨天北捷的工程又發生公安事故,那這個監督方面我們現在要怎麼做?」"},{"start":7158.508,"end":7159.188,"text":"有請黃秀芳、黃委員。有請部長。"},{"start":7173.444,"end":7199.662,"text":"阿偉好部長好今天討論這個有關這個勞動退休金的問題我想請教就是說其實我們看到一份報告就是說我們這個人力資源顧問有關在那個評比台灣的這個評比當中排名第39那這個排名第39可能我們從上面看到就是說確實台灣的這個退休金制度是不是存在一些問題"},{"start":7201.063,"end":7202.284,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7227.467,"end":7236.414,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委"},{"start":7252.051,"end":7252.411,"text":"兩條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7281.081,"end":7283.762,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7297.527,"end":7315.289,"text":"大概在百分之六十八並不會低於OECD不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考第二個就是說那個四萬五千八天花板是不是要打開那這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個"},{"start":7316.973,"end":7322.777,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":7347.294,"end":7364.555,"text":"其實我一直想要講的就是說其實我們的這個勞保的這個投保薪資在105年提高到這個四萬五千八嘛那其實我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調那是不是也要相對的這個投保薪資是不是也要再往上"},{"start":7365.656,"end":7391.052,"text":"這是我認為應該是這樣子才合理啊我也認為應該是這樣你看我們的紙災保險災保我就提到七萬兩千八了這個已經cover到大概有八成的勞工九成勞工都可以適用得到但未來我是覺得這一題可能未來就是可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論啊不然我現在我只要單提高一級我就是一千五百億的負擔啊"},{"start":7394.35,"end":7397.371,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":7417,"end":7419.14,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7444.836,"end":7459.85,"text":"對這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見但是就是說現在的狀況就是說還是有些老船比較擔心的就是說這畢竟是退休老本那你要自擔風險這件事情"},{"start":7461.208,"end":7465.61,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7487.418,"end":7516.044,"text":"其中有很多高齡或中高齡的民眾其實他們也很想在二度就業找的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作有的他們也急需一份工作有的確實是因為經濟的壓力急需一份工作可是他們去應徵的時候可能都會碰到可能是年齡的關係或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合"},{"start":7517.484,"end":7533.684,"text":"其他還有長輩需要照顧所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合那我也看到就是說你們有提出一個就是針對這個補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的這個措施那我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":7534.718,"end":7536.919,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":7552.295,"end":7553.856,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":7565.769,"end":7566.769,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具"},{"start":7584.309,"end":7586.972,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7604.087,"end":7623.516,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第"},{"start":7625.391,"end":7630.797,"text":"第二十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":7648.234,"end":7650.495,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議"},{"start":7674.286,"end":7691.731,"text":"兩年內目前是14處了,那陸陸續續還會增加,那我們其實就會讓績效慢慢的把它能夠提升上來。好,那有這樣的一個據點我希望你們也要多宣傳,因為很多他們不知道可能就也是"},{"start":7692.671,"end":7697.993,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會長青中心等16人擬具"},{"start":7720.122,"end":7728.648,"text":"來奉獻給社會可以工作又來解決勞動力的缺口。謝謝。謝謝。有請王婉玉、王委員。主席有請勞動部許部長。有請部長。"},{"start":7746.463,"end":7765.141,"text":"網路委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金"},{"start":7765.561,"end":7789.176,"text":"所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金"},{"start":7790.777,"end":7810.855,"text":"可是沒有說的是在於這樣子的退休金其實是大打折扣的我們以2021年的勞工的薪資的中位數大約51萬來計算他的年資以及退休金如果是以勞退救資來計算總共加起來大概是191萬元的勞退的這個退休金但是以勞退薪資"},{"start":7811.816,"end":7836.13,"text":"僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請領的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講"},{"start":7837.25,"end":7851.195,"text":"這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過老資協議來做增加但是我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是"},{"start":7854.356,"end":7875.466,"text":"貴族的提撥率高達9.75%。」我覺得這就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退僱主的提撥比例的的遊行"},{"start":7876.226,"end":7878.909,"text":"而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整"},{"start":7899.048,"end":7927.497,"text":"所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟雇主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調整其實是需要政府來做修法更恍惚其他的雇主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾"},{"start":7928.157,"end":7949.19,"text":"而當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的"},{"start":7952.54,"end":7978.049,"text":"包括委員齁目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位啦。占比?占比大概百分之0.61啦。是,所以非常少,連百分之一都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他"},{"start":7981.73,"end":7992.619,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8007.287,"end":8013.772,"text":"如果我們提高一年的話整個的法定成本就是增加大概將近390億"},{"start":8015.694,"end":8040.702,"text":"所以這件事情當然要去公開我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說像這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來"},{"start":8045.563,"end":8068.718,"text":"不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":8069.835,"end":8076.658,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8091.223,"end":8092.424,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8110.053,"end":8130.535,"text":"參議院總統其實也曾經承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和演繹的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標這個部分其實我們這個溝通我說是要真正溝通不是說我嘴巴上溝通而已是"},{"start":8131.229,"end":8143.969,"text":"但說實在這件事情當然不是那麼容易啦因為就是要說服是啊所以我們一定要看到實際上做了哪些事情啊所以從六月到現在進行了哪些規封跟哪些單位做了溝通那我們其實就是"},{"start":8145.649,"end":8149.751,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具〈勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8172.805,"end":8187.39,"text":"這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?包委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合"},{"start":8188.7,"end":8190.742,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8213.426,"end":8230.867,"text":"獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們的補補的可能性所以我們想請教對於這個方向部長有沒有一個想法或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持這樣的方向因為剛才提到如果法定要提高6%一直說要溝通但是完全提不出具體溝通是什麼那我們希望雇主主動來提高提撥率"},{"start":8232.308,"end":8252.344,"text":"那我們如何來鼓勵僱主來提高?不要再說我們要透過勞資協議了因為部長你的數據已經打臉了你們自己說的透過勞資協議可以來提高,只有不到1%上路了18年不到1%我相信這個勞資協議真的非常困難當然對這些僱主要希望他們能夠來接受說"},{"start":8253.34,"end":8264.305,"text":"提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們"},{"start":8268.687,"end":8271.408,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8294.915,"end":8311.765,"text":"我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想"},{"start":8312.525,"end":8335.172,"text":"議員您一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦,您剛剛數據也很明顯地呈現出來,要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難。即便我們推動倡議了十幾年,到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的。所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到,如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵,我們都要有清楚的路徑,又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧。"},{"start":8337.013,"end":8360.235,"text":"我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分又法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴"},{"start":8360.615,"end":8383.383,"text":"我想這個部分6%是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部"},{"start":8384.923,"end":8398.83,"text":"絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。謝謝,有請林威洲、林委員。謝謝昭偉,請部長。有請部長。"},{"start":8418.287,"end":8441.421,"text":"好,徐部長今天我們要審查勞工退休金條例齁這個其中有七個案子是要推動新制勞工退休金自選投資請問部長你覺得勞工退休金投資最重要的他的目的是什麼賺錢還是"},{"start":8445.214,"end":8469.108,"text":"獲利增加他將來的勞工退休金能夠更多﹖就是,報告委員,他的投資一定是要,第一個一定要安全,能夠保本﹖安全,安全更重要﹖然後穩健,當然收益,當然想要自選就希望能夠多賺一點,這個投資收益,所以這個都是我想自選的一個他們希望達到的"},{"start":8470.147,"end":8490.217,"text":"其他的退休基金有沒有這個制度、治權?比如說公教人員﹑私校退府、公務員退府新制,但是規模很小,我記得私校退府多少錢?"},{"start":8492.205,"end":8519.316,"text":"七百億左右而已。那我們自己勞退的話應該先要三兆,四點九兆。退休金喔,這個最主要的目的啦,我個人的理解,就是說要你平常在工作的時候有收入嘛,等到這個退休之後沒有收入,所以平常要等於儲備了一些將來"},{"start":8520.663,"end":8521.344,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具"},{"start":8535.026,"end":8544.094,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及委員劉世芳等16人擬具"},{"start":8553.161,"end":8571.075,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第17條條條文修正草案：立法院第17條條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第19條"},{"start":8572.275,"end":8586.382,"text":"也不要造成其他人家人的負擔國家的負擔但是你如果舍本族我認為啦如果舍本族問我說我預支將來的退休金然後來操作要來賺取更多的利潤"},{"start":8588.194,"end":8589.235,"text":"三、委員劉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":8604.458,"end":8628.539,"text":"所以你針對這個要訂定這個自選的條例的修法因為這幾年很多生意希望能夠自提自選就針對自體的部分能夠自選但是我們就是也認為說因為勞退這個事情它其實社會保險的一個角色就是像剛剛委員講的它是退休之後經濟生活安全的一個依靠"},{"start":8629.36,"end":8630.401,"text":"當你面對像去年那種金融市場整個股債都下跌的情況下"},{"start":8647.312,"end":8650.014,"text":"立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8662.861,"end":8663.862,"text":"兩年定存利率的一個獲利給你。事實上這幾年的"},{"start":8692.505,"end":8695.066,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8714.179,"end":8731.57,"text":"對他就說那當初都是政府理的草案然後立法院委員通過的那當初的制度是你們幫我決定的我是覺得勞工還是比較辛苦的一群有時候這件事情我會覺得說雖然我們抱著開放的態度但是還是要多聽各界的聲音"},{"start":8732.23,"end":8743.845,"text":"所以針對這個修法我覺得應該慎重慎重然後要多聽一些意見甚至召開公聽會等等然後也要比較其他的這個"},{"start":8745.384,"end":8747.046,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8766.964,"end":8772.728,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":8789.56,"end":8813.475,"text":"保證收益的角色。安全性已經保障了,但是如何讓他有更高的收益,恐怕是更好的、更穩健的辦法。我們之後還會繼續討論,我想今天可能也不會就很快的進入主條。再來我再請教關於這個開放服務業外勞的"},{"start":8816.417,"end":8819.199,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":8836.015,"end":8841.439,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":8863.695,"end":8886.653,"text":"整個開放如果要開放服務業移工對我們的族群對我們的性別就業的影響評估那這個部分我我們大概是這樣目前還沒有說什麼時候來討論但是我們會等觀光署把他的補充評估報告送來那並同我們勞動部所做的這些就業影響評估報告我們再來請專家開會做檢視"},{"start":8891.416,"end":8908.831,"text":"解釋之後我們才會適時的去提我們這個政策小組來評估來討論OK今天早上我們看到那個新聞就是說嘉義關子這個飯店業者兩百四十一間房間爭公務"},{"start":8911.257,"end":8918.884,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8928.119,"end":8929.04,"text":"兩萬六兩萬六這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":8948.781,"end":8976.168,"text":"他們如果希望說開放外勞進口就移工讓他進來當然他們願意移工願意接受這個薪資本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突一旦開放之後那個行業就會變成都是移工外籍移工本勞就進不去"},{"start":8977.335,"end":9005.199,"text":"大家要想像一下,兩萬六我就請得到,兩萬六千四我請到技工,還會修水電,本來沒有人會做啦,老實講。那個行業開放了,那就將來通通是外勞了。假設,我現在先假設說,如果連計程車開放,我看以後通通計程車都是外勞,那只要基本薪資。外送員如果開放了,他外送我看以後通通是外勞在做。"},{"start":9006.636,"end":9009.73,"text":"就移工在座了。本國勞工怎麼辦?"},{"start":9012.813,"end":9039.729,"text":"所以這個都是要整體去考量我們看到很多的行業都是開放了外勞之後那本勞就很難進入那個行業那反而就這個會衍生其他問題當然對僱主來講他有外勞的選擇外籍義工的選擇但是勞工的角度來看的話這個很多領域就變成本勞進不去啦"},{"start":9040.908,"end":9056.779,"text":"所以這個都要整體考量包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工這個都要好好的大家來討論他衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝你們有請邱太遠、邱委員"},{"start":9072.214,"end":9094.813,"text":"謝謝召委、主席。我們請部長。請部長。部長,我想今天的主題,我們都在關心勞工的福利,那很多委員也都提了很多的見解。我想對於我們未來在修正,不管是政策"},{"start":9096.318,"end":9124.407,"text":"規定各方面應該有大的幫助。」我想我都很願意跟大家一起來共同努力。那有一些另外的主題可能我們以前也關心,那現在我再請教一下,我們看下一張。我想勞動力的穩定還是未來,我們台灣要一直去注意的事情。這可以怕人命。當然看起來是有來源,應該有四個方向,這個我們以前有討論過。"},{"start":9126.403,"end":9151.23,"text":"生育率提高,這有在表嗎?有,這個就是我們現在就是各部會努力啦,國家跟你一起養,希望其他生育率...好,好,好,那第二就是那個促進中高齡、高齡就業,這等一下再請教,那怎麼樣讓可能想要或者動機有沒有都可以的勞動人口來"},{"start":9153.103,"end":9176.15,"text":"以彌補我們現在職場上所需要的當然第四個當然剛剛韋哲偉有提到的擔心各方面這個我們都會謹慎來進行這個我想這幾個方向是大家過去一直在討論跟努力的看下一張好了好那我想我們看起來來看一下資料好像我們的一個"},{"start":9178.112,"end":9206.473,"text":"六十五或者是我們退休平均年齡好像比較早比其他國家不曉得你們那邊有沒有統計那好像再回來工作的就業率會比較低這補貼你們過去我們拍片這段時間到現在有沒有碰到什麼困難困難就是說第一個我是覺得我們可能雇主雇主的刻板印象對於中高齡高齡的就業或者"},{"start":9207.159,"end":9208.159,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9225.969,"end":9229.912,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9247.623,"end":9251.064,"text":"其中為了以前的長照的照顧,我們在大概二十年前曾經在雲林那邊推動"},{"start":9276.277,"end":9294.379,"text":"其中六十五位及七十退休的、七十五位來照顧七十五位醫療的老人。不過那個時候是用志工,也真的在媒介,很努力在媒介。當然後來可能也沒有延續,都是創造一些模式。"},{"start":9295.66,"end":9323.017,"text":"那後續當然可能也不一定有延續,但是總是有創造一些模式出來。那他山之子可以工作,我們現在發現我個人的感覺好像聽說日本比較蠻多很多年紀比較大的,都出來去做一種可能他們做得了的,甚至在餐飲內的服務。可能很多人在餐飲內服務是希望年輕一點的,但是"},{"start":9323.891,"end":9348.947,"text":"有些餐飲我覺得只要有人來把它處理好就好了。這個我們還不可以再了解說日本是怎麼做的還是其他國家是怎麼做的。這個部分當然就是說他們可能傳統上他們其實善用這些中高齡高齡銀髮族的人力啦那我們也現在也在鼓勵雇主就是說"},{"start":9350.236,"end":9350.676,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具第十七條之一"},{"start":9361.596,"end":9362.536,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9391.267,"end":9418.483,"text":"就是我們進場去幫他媒合這些中高齡或高齡者那讓他們在這個勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速的去獲得填補我想我們有在做那當然就一直檢討成果跟看怎麼樣有精進的策略這可能要不斷的努力才能改變文化能改變大家的心態"},{"start":9419.981,"end":9448.223,"text":"當然在體能方面我們也是一個問題但是這個部分我相信只要媒合適當的體能部分大概沒有問題就是說我們那個植物再我們有在跟僱主溝通說其實我們可以有專家進去幫他做植物再設計讓這個整個流程更適合這些壯士代的工作人再來就是我們有輔具輔具每年每個人每年你只要拼用這些壯士代勞工每人每年有十萬塊的"},{"start":9449.424,"end":9472.777,"text":"其中一人擬具的費用可以來補助你,那這個都可以減輕他們在工作上,譬如說要搬重或者各種不便了,那這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓戶主知道。我們以前在推這個計畫的時候,那個法案的時候當然我們也擔心說會去搶年輕人的位子,可是畢竟還是有很多"},{"start":9475.003,"end":9487.878,"text":"人不能說現在那個困境,像沒錢了怎麼辦?很多啊,像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊。我想國家政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊。"},{"start":9490.446,"end":9515.976,"text":"總是要創造它的價值,不能就是卡死在那裡,當然來創造我們的智慧。我想這個部分,很多政策不是不能做,而是怎麼把它做得好。我們現在其實是整體的缺工,所以不會有說去搶青年人工作的問題。部長我請教你,你覺得我們現在有年輕人都跑去哪邊工作?"},{"start":9517.452,"end":9542.734,"text":"好像很多人都在缺人力,都在家裡,家裡有錢都不用出來工作,你們有沒有去統計一下?其實很多都到服務業批發零售那邊去啦,批發零售業。批發零售業,有需要那麼多人喔?原來了解年輕人都早就在做行為。"},{"start":9545.382,"end":9548.606,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":9565.058,"end":9574.504,"text":"現在的年輕人沒辦法結合我們大概七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業我們大概有七成的年輕人畢業以後的年輕人喜歡在服務業"},{"start":9579.165,"end":9584.269,"text":"但是我們其實現在也有投資青年就業方向,希望把它導向創業產業。對文化的一個形成會比較好,看現在這樣好了。那李姓的閣人其實有,我們也是最近我們開始關心這些那個"},{"start":9605.512,"end":9618.864,"text":"很多人,他小孩子也長,也稍微大了齁,想說不然退休可以發揮一下這樣齁。這個部分,不曉得我們勞動部這個部分對這個主題的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":9619.642,"end":9632.371,"text":"對,我們現在有一個,我們今天9月1號就是有一個婦女再就業計畫,三年的計畫,預計是說大概三年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力,那這個計畫包括說給這個女性,因為她可能離開職場一段時間了,"},{"start":9637.654,"end":9644.963,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":9656.676,"end":9665.881,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文"},{"start":9675.285,"end":9676.785,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":9699.246,"end":9724.485,"text":"一些方向出來,那另外在勞動部這邊,我們未來就是會針對那個來源國的仲介,要求他要負連帶責任。這個當然是一個方法,但是不一定是好方法,還是可以再討論。那這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。當然在針對這個問題大家共同再來思考,好不好?好,感謝大家。謝謝主席。"},{"start":9730.478,"end":9756.175,"text":"下一位請紅山安紅委員請許部長劉勤部長"},{"start":9763.359,"end":9766.16,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9780.06,"end":9782.462,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":9804.4,"end":9831.287,"text":"這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂、掉落、砸在公車停但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉"},{"start":9832.991,"end":9856.128,"text":"連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。好。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁。好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁"},{"start":9857.785,"end":9886.542,"text":"我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件"},{"start":9889.035,"end":9900.232,"text":"議員,這些悲劇你會不會想預防?當然。如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立?當然要建立。好。議員,我相信你的回答是這樣"},{"start":9903.687,"end":9918.96,"text":"現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意"},{"start":9920.883,"end":9948.992,"text":"在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統"},{"start":9950.253,"end":9953.236,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9969.161,"end":9986.23,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":9994.963,"end":10017.301,"text":"沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息"},{"start":10024.504,"end":10042.309,"text":"將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到"},{"start":10045.413,"end":10072.207,"text":"所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔"},{"start":10073.311,"end":10092.251,"text":"所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善"},{"start":10093.45,"end":10121.965,"text":"委員這個要改善,這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK所以我所理解的是他們目前在明年1月1號馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安衛的部分會增加有發生日期發生地"},{"start":10123.461,"end":10130.985,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":10140.487,"end":10166.66,"text":"你知道你們開了一個研商會議嗎?研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把它限縮了所以我的意思是什麼?更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的已經去勞檢裁罰的終結"},{"start":10169.639,"end":10193.655,"text":"的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡"},{"start":10195.638,"end":10217.957,"text":"所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸"},{"start":10221.291,"end":10246.244,"text":"明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得"},{"start":10246.994,"end":10254.558,"text":"這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了"},{"start":10258.165,"end":10285.344,"text":"我知道職安署會說這是法規問題我要說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如它有改善你也可以把它放到網路上面去我也沒意見"},{"start":10287.416,"end":10304.247,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14"},{"start":10306.889,"end":10318.001,"text":"這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?"},{"start":10322.826,"end":10345.247,"text":"我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直不督導我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點"},{"start":10345.908,"end":10372.48,"text":"那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了。署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎?你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露?只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來"},{"start":10376.476,"end":10386.723,"text":"這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露"},{"start":10406.277,"end":10427.016,"text":"我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道"},{"start":10428.365,"end":10430.327,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10450.868,"end":10475.533,"text":"市長我提醒一件事情之前我們在修責安法的時候我們其實也討論過揭露的問題當初責安署跟大家的說法都是說啊不要寫太細啦結果現在不要寫太細變成你們不揭露的理由了報告委員責安法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情"},{"start":10476.701,"end":10478.522,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12條之一"},{"start":10498.639,"end":10499.58,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10530.5,"end":10554.851,"text":"你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛"},{"start":10557.456,"end":10558.137,"text":"兩月我們處理好了。"},{"start":10583.982,"end":10584.603,"text":"陳佩瑜、陳委員請部長"},{"start":10604.701,"end":10613.614,"text":"部長您好,我們時間有限,我想問一下部長您有出現在最新的這一本所有台灣的爸爸媽媽幾乎都會看的雜誌,不知道您自己有沒有印象?"},{"start":10616.212,"end":10618.374,"text":"三、委員吳淑儀等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":10637.392,"end":10665.578,"text":"在日本跟香港跟台灣卻呈現負成長。關於這個缺工的問題,或者是勞工本身在企業端工作的很多訴求,不知道部長您這邊在接受完這個雜誌的訪問之後,您認為友善家庭職場在勞動部這邊,如果您快速想到您覺得您還能做些什麼事情,協助勞工在勞動現場可以覺得更友善的被對待,然後也願意生養下一代。部長您覺得,從勞動部的角度您覺得可以做哪些事情?"},{"start":10668.144,"end":10673.826,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":10684.83,"end":10712.604,"text":"年輕世代的爸爸媽媽對於自己到職場上實現自我的專長實現自我的天分這件事情其實大家對於工作是有些想像跟企圖心的可是一旦把這個企圖心切回到職場現實的時候部長我先考你一下你覺得年輕的爸媽他們在意職場的哪些因素會讓他們更願意留在職場或者是在職場實踐自我當中還願意生育下一代您覺得年輕世代的爸媽在意什麼樣的事情"},{"start":10715.765,"end":10716.145,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":10730.472,"end":10755.08,"text":"好那沒關係部長我跟您報告第一個是彈性工時佔65%的爸爸媽媽最在意有沒有辦法彈性工時第二個如同您說的七有沒有機會設置零拖或者是幼兒園第三個是居家上班也就是在疫情之後的遠距工作的可能性這三個比例是年輕世代的爸媽最在意的事情可是我想要請部長看一下這個投影片的上端"},{"start":10755.66,"end":10774.556,"text":"其實大部分的父親跟母親都有想要工作的企圖心你看喔在兼職工作或是全職工作的比例都很高對嗎?全職月的比例其實不高也就是說大家這個世代年輕的爸媽他們對於自己在職場上是有些想像的可是勞動部有沒有機會提供這樣的職場環境給予勞工們?部長您覺得呢?"},{"start":10780.084,"end":10797.285,"text":"對,就是說可能在,因為可能有些職場是可以提供彈性,有些職場可能比較不容易,那我覺得我們應該先從可以提供彈性這個公使的這些職場鼓勵雇主能夠來"},{"start":10799.927,"end":10814.501,"text":"來做到落實。」那勞動部的角度我們來看一下其實勞動部一直有一個工作生活平衡獎啦也就是說勞動部在這個議題上並不是沒有作為可是我們來看一下這個評審項目有包含這些那生活平衡獎我們來看一下"},{"start":10815.762,"end":10841.458,"text":"而勞動部這個生活平衡獎裡面有一個彈性工作獎也就是可能是彈性工時或者是彈性工作地點也就是說勞動部其實可能在幾年前就有意識到這個事情是重要的或者是友善家庭的部分勞動部在這個獎項裡面有一個單獨的項目叫做友善家庭可是我們來看在相關勞動部的這些獎勵鼓勵措施當中對於企業端的實質上更積極的鼓勵或者是互動溝通過往以"},{"start":10843.459,"end":10872.135,"text":"一往以來都是比較被動的他就是一個被動接受企業的報名可是報名之後他們得到的可能就是一個獎牌我們看了然後相關一萬塊的相關獎品也不是獎金我們想要問一下如果勞動部自己都已經辦了相關的獎項跟比賽而且每一年都做不是只有做一兩年那勞動部其實在這件事情上是有一些想法跟態度的可是可不可以更加的積極去服應更多年輕世代父母親的需求部長您自己的觀點怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":10872.867,"end":10891.005,"text":"其實我們辦這個獎項是讓這些這個算是一個幸福的企業他們的一些友善勞工的作為能夠讓更多的企業來學習他們作為一個標竿那所以當然"},{"start":10891.884,"end":10905.789,"text":"獎牌獎金那是那是個honor但是沒有辦法說給他們很多的一個獎金那如果我們不談獎牌獎金部長您覺得在勞動部的角度還可以做更多什麼事情我先提供一個數字這也是勞動部給這個雜誌說的勞動部統計臺灣受僱者在2020年平均年總工時為2008個小時在39個主要國家中排名第六甚至我們高於南韓的1904個小時高於日本的1626個小時"},{"start":10921.115,"end":10947.069,"text":"也就是說勞動部其實你們已經知道要做相關的事情不管是透過鼓勵措施或是相關企業對話可是可不可以更積極的回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求那我再跟部長報告最後一個議題其實今年諾貝爾獎這個得主他也提到了女性並沒有真的想要離開職場而是整個職場的環境的不友善讓年輕的女性他們必須要在而且部長您在裡面受訪也提到台灣有一個"},{"start":10948.089,"end":10950.11,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10969.514,"end":10980.582,"text":"三、委員有更多的討論跟相關的規劃措施不管是透過獎勵透過更多的跟職場的對話讓勞工在現場真的可以感受到而不是只有民間雜誌辦了這樣的票選或者是這樣的獎勵但是勞動部可能在這個議題上其實還不夠跟進民間的需求"},{"start":10987.788,"end":11009.738,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個部分的確勞動部還要再更有積極的作為那這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位那我們會來怎麼樣來讓企業能夠發展更多有效的措施然後政府又有一些鼓勵、獎勵來讓他們願意來做那這個部分我想我會來責成"},{"start":11015.06,"end":11029.111,"text":"相關業務單位來展現這個我們也都真的非常希望勞動部在後續可以做出更積極的事情不然我相信部長你在這個雜誌受訪的時候你一定心裡面也是在意這個事情而且你也願意認同這個價值好以上謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝有請楊委員謝謝主席主席有請一下許部長好有請部長"},{"start":11049.824,"end":11072.178,"text":"兩位好部長好部長我們今天討論勞工退休金條例我在這邊有一個問題想要請問你個人的看法就是說現在大概有一部分人因為我們現在勞工自體的退休金"},{"start":11073.018,"end":11086.187,"text":"是不可以自選操作標的嗎?那部長在這個議題上你的看法是覺得可以還是不可以?你比較傾向主張哪一個?"},{"start":11087.943,"end":11114.983,"text":"現在是不行嘛。像失效退福基金他大概已經可以了嘛。那勞工退休金有關勞工自體的部分,部長個人的看法是覺得?包委如果說是個人的看法,因為我是覺得退休金是勞工老年退休生活一個保障。"},{"start":11116.465,"end":11132.31,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":11145.121,"end":11170.676,"text":"自選的自體的部分如果自選他必須自擔風險那我是會比較擔心勞工這一部分如果當遇到像去年股債同聲下跌兩二三成的時候其實對勞工的一個一個損害是蠻大的所以這種情況我是認為這個部分我目前目前會比較保守一點部長的看法倒是跟我一致因為我覺得"},{"start":11174.86,"end":11199.586,"text":"勞工自提的退休金然後看起來日後是必須要來填補勞保年金給付不足共同建構勞工退休以後的生活保障可是這個又遇到一個問題就是說自提的部分其實是屬於他的財產"},{"start":11207.916,"end":11227.407,"text":"對嗎?限制勞工自行選擇投資標的這個本身就是跟財產所有有衝突第二個就是最重要的就是剛剛部長講的如何穩健獲利因為"},{"start":11230.484,"end":11259.353,"text":"自提的退休金假如說一直放著獲利不足其實它根本趕不上通貨膨脹這個是很大的問題我相信特別是在勞保年金給付沒有辦法增加的情況下我個人一直對勞退的部分是很關注的"},{"start":11261.32,"end":11279.966,"text":"所以剛剛部長有講到穩健獲利我們怎麼讓他穩健獲利包委我們現在當然整個這幾年的勞動基金的投資投資收益都還不錯啦我們平均大概都有4.64.6%我們也就是勝選投資標的不管是自操或委外"},{"start":11289.13,"end":11313.237,"text":"其在整個績效上都有有做一些要求就是務必要讓我們的勞工的勞本能夠有好的一個收益有好的收益那我是這個部分我們當然會持續來努力啦會持續來努力那因為我由你們來操作那有沒有"},{"start":11315.339,"end":11343.188,"text":"有最低獲利擔保的嗎?對不對?這兩年的定期嗎?一定是保證獲利的你最後一定是最少都有這個銀行兩年定存利率的一個獲益保證所以就是你現在就當然是政府限制你沒有辦法自體的去自選但是我同時也保證你一定是獲益的就不會讓你的退休金會棄給別人"},{"start":11348.188,"end":11360.813,"text":"這個當然還需要做更深的研究跟廣泛的討論因為我剛剛講過了其實字體的部分其實還是勞工自己的錢"},{"start":11363.874,"end":11375.809,"text":"所以我們也是態度上我們勞動部也是勞動部所以覺得說我們就開放的態度請聽各界的意見但是我們基本上還是要站在保護勞工的立場對因為這個跟"},{"start":11382.658,"end":11401.733,"text":"老闆幾父其實是有相關聯我接下來還是因為這個可能是本屆最後一次勞動部到委員會來了所以我還是把一些數據必須要講一下因為我一直覺得廣大的勞工"},{"start":11405.276,"end":11430.847,"text":"退休生活以後的保障其實是政府的責任而且在過幾年以後問題馬上就會出現那我也知道改革的困難因為勞工本身收入本來就要提高保費好像主力也大那保費不增加怎麼提高怎麼健全整個機制這個是"},{"start":11434.648,"end":11456.136,"text":"是政府必須要去非常有智慧去面對然後有勇氣去解決的我大概念幾個數字給部長聽聽看就知道勞保年金有多嚴重因為像在澎湖"},{"start":11459.648,"end":11488.98,"text":"相對於相對比較一般壽星階級的薪資沒有那麼高的地方其實我對於勞工的退休生活其實是還蠻憂心的。2022年呢我們大概就是勞工整體整體的領導的給付大概是一萬八千兩百九十四元台北市"},{"start":11490.168,"end":11503.311,"text":"同一年臺北市最低的生活費已經到了一萬八千六百八十二,也就是說勞工平均可以"},{"start":11509.585,"end":11529.455,"text":"可以得到的年金給付在台北市是已經低於最低生活費了而且這種情況會隨著通貨膨脹越來越嚴重整體的有六成的勞工年金給付低於兩萬"},{"start":11532.406,"end":11536.848,"text":"在這種情況下我們還每天在擔心勞保基金什麼時候會破產,這個才是最大的問題。"},{"start":11548.866,"end":11549.366,"text":"二、委員吳太太等16人擬具"},{"start":11565.023,"end":11583.744,"text":"負擔最終給負責任的條文,把它入法,盡速入法。其實你不入法還是常年在撥補了啦,政府不大可能讓勞保倒。而入法的好處是最少可以安定"},{"start":11584.505,"end":11599.874,"text":"安定超過一千萬的勞工的薪,讓他在工作的時候不用擔心退休以後日子怎麼過。好不好?好,不然我們一起努力。好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席。好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":11609.008,"end":11636.337,"text":"本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢委員楊耀所提出的書面質詢已列入刊登公報作以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未答覆或請補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內以書面答覆委員利用要求"},{"start":11638.058,"end":11653.229,"text":"其限者從其鎖定：勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案等15案,另則其繼續審查。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"15351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15351","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0f2e27e16159b429990eb5714c0999f5246d53a332764a5358da0752dbb5a04e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-12T16:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案」（公務預算部分））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-12","start_time":"2023-12-12T15:30:02+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121259","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-12T21:48:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":22678,"委員發言時間":"15:30:02 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即使國民黨有這個誠意 也希望說大家好好做下來好好協商預算 讓他能夠盡快完成審議這是前提那第二個就是 昨天民進黨是個執政黨 要面子"},{"start":2065.595,"end":2094.577,"text":"要離職還痛罵國民黨一頓這樣不是一個負責任的執政黨人該有的態度廖婉如提個案子要陸委會來說明到底界限傳了會會洋洋但是也沒有具體個案要講啊後來陸委會已經跟他說明了當場測案啊"},{"start":2097.031,"end":2121.171,"text":"作為中華民國的國會議員連邀請陸委會來說明這提案的內容都不行我不知道耶今夕是何夕呀今夕是何夕也就算了作為執政黨的黨團在柯董昭率領之下他的幹事長、他的書記長竟然開記者會"},{"start":2125.734,"end":2152.947,"text":"某黑某紅國民黨的立委我不知道啦我要問柯總召啦今夕是何夕這那麼多部長從國防部長、財政部長、主席長行業秘書長坐在裡還有唐鳳部長我跟各位報告我也坐在裡面我一直坐過我沒有看過這種執政黨"},{"start":2155.424,"end":2172.187,"text":"我長眼睛沒有看過這種執政黨我不曉得在座五位部會所長長眼睛有沒有看過我相信你們也沒看過這麼霸道、囂張的執政黨柯建平、總召你這領導的黨團我沒說完啊我沒說過三年間有什麼說完啊"},{"start":2184.915,"end":2204.831,"text":"所以我的要求 我的要求還沒講啊今天要進行後續的超越協商前提是柯建民總召要代表民進黨團 正式道歉才會幫他走下去 不然我們就繼續讓他留會吧"},{"start":2210.039,"end":2236.056,"text":"請問怎麼預算讓如期通過在休會前如期通過這是我們的共識至於說昨天有關昨天擦槍走火之事應該分為兩個部分我想每一個立法委員今天總共提起2000多個案子要經過查核協商以後可能會測案有可能改組結議這形勢有人但都很清楚"},{"start":2237.375,"end":2245.333,"text":"主要針對廖瑩瓊這個案子到底記者會以後撤案還是郭忠祐撤案都不論"},{"start":2246.311,"end":2273.89,"text":"但是我認為齁因為在朝野鄉中政府案子太多了各黨各不同立場嘛那執政黨在捍衛他的執政價值以及執政的政策那在場挑戰執政黨這有天經地義無可厚非那兩黨互相攻防也常常有所以針對廖仁這個案子不管怎麼樣竟然有車案這個其實"},{"start":2275.891,"end":2294.201,"text":"不管誰在先誰在後,像這種凍結案,當然可在朝野鄉來談,不必拿來搭做文章有點操作過急,這一點我不是代表他們有點操作過急,你聽我說就好"},{"start":2303.532,"end":2331.531,"text":"這罐案很多 凍結乃至於刪除 刪 那我們都找各位趕快去溝通在溝通還沒完成以前 我不認為我們黨黨成員拿這個出來做供給這個是恰當的 有點操之過急這點我代表我們黨黨抱歉 我們希望今天能夠走下去就好"},{"start":2332.27,"end":2336.887,"text":"至於另外一個案子就是說陳一貞的案子"},{"start":2338.356,"end":2366.184,"text":"海基位預算總共一億四千萬而已他要砍四千百萬這當然毀於所思這海基位就不是運作了但他的理由大家聽起來比較牽強很奇怪也就是說我們台商在金門找大金門去投資因為中共阻撓讓台商不能去所以這個招商就不是很理想"},{"start":2367.428,"end":2390.044,"text":"陳彥生以用這個理由來刪減海基會預算,我想這個搞錯對象但是呢,沒有關係陳彥生昨天晚上我在看電視的時候,他很堅持鼠威答應小山東合作,他堅持三年到底這點我沒有關係,這個到最後要表決處理所以,大家都知道,他最重要的是同學"},{"start":2392.325,"end":2412.759,"text":"太多了啦,要論的東西太多了那我從來不會說在協商中或協商還沒開始協商像我們進來的時候記者問我我說你不問我,我不會回答那個問題因為我們要跟他協商我怎麼可以在外面先荒拋嘛,這不好所以我說永遠秉持這個原則所以對他們總會操之過急"},{"start":2423.546,"end":2427.867,"text":"你這樣道歉我接受了但是我要問您我們黨長期執政會這樣對待在野黨嗎罵李子佑"},{"start":2461.907,"end":2474.958,"text":"昨天把個人的選舉拿來立法院 當作阻撓我們政黨協商 大家在立法院都已經這麼久了 知道說預算的提案"},{"start":2475.899,"end":2482.234,"text":"只是初步的在院長的預算協商的時候才會請所有的部會來說明嘛"},{"start":2483.448,"end":2509.693,"text":"甚至有一些部會已經來我的辦公室在昨天之前都已經來辦公室那有一些預算刪減案也已經都被委員會的刪減案處理了那我們都在加速政府預算的審理的情況那沒有想到要破壞都已經是慣例的事情要拿來當作"},{"start":2512.031,"end":2539.839,"text":"指稱我個人的提案我覺得這是非常不當的這是會破壞整個協商的這樣子的一個互信的基礎那這樣子大家怎麼協商下去呢我們知道給在野黨協商是在立法院裡面你們過半數以後也要給在野的小黨他們有表達意見的權利嗎 是不是"},{"start":2542.594,"end":2544.836,"text":"有關於鄭文忠委員﹚剛才所發言﹚以及謝鴻偉所發言﹚在過去"},{"start":2565.697,"end":2589.378,"text":"我在這裡30年,隨便亂論。我在當執政黨的時間和當在野黨的時間各一半,但是我總召之後20年。所以我非常了解立法院這是一個政治的禁忌場所,但是有些潛規則大家還是要守著。比如說以前沒有直播的時候,我跟論壇協商的話,裡面誰講的話,到目前為止,"},{"start":2590.299,"end":2599.708,"text":"我們私下談的或是在行政中心談的我絕對不會出去做新聞或是去攻擊人這是我長期以來所以大家才有互信的基礎"},{"start":2602.551,"end":2623.757,"text":"你不要再轉了不要再打了,按就好按就好這是一個互信的基礎那因為現在網路時代所以消息資訊傳遞很快那這個馬上有些直擊新聞,過去也沒有這個回事所以我在這裡還是比較懇切的講就是說總預算通過就是"},{"start":2628.678,"end":2638.375,"text":"要有成比例,不成比例的手法全部不成總預算才不好是對彼此都不好,對院長也不好,對整個國家也不好那我已經講過,我們會秉持這個原則"},{"start":2643.587,"end":2668.498,"text":"在協商還是溝通中的事情,我們就不要拿出來比如工具,這樣才大家要互信嘛那過去,你說國民黨常任執政,國民黨常任執政實施的時候,我民國80年進來那2000年的時候,都是國民黨執政但是呢,那時候我們現在執政是比較就是說,好全部拿出來案子,然後到各位去溝通"},{"start":2670.519,"end":2697.57,"text":"過去根本沒有這回事,過去說下來直接大家沉香舌戰因為現在環境面不一樣,有所謂公入門公入門會看大家提案,提案數,所以大家要一直製造案子37年總預算大概四五千案,但後來在國中一直少所以我們偶爾覺得提案有的,像過去曾經也有一個案子"},{"start":2698.55,"end":2721.873,"text":"拆成五十個案子一樣3.0.1、0.2、0.3、0.4、0.5這樣搞法阿這衝一樣嘛阿給公眾們看所以立法委員要做自己比較重要我想我們共同這樣美麗阿那今天我們對於齁在學生中的在國共中的不應該拿出來做彼此攻擊等到表決完畢要罵再來罵也可以阿是不是這樣"},{"start":2723.395,"end":2723.815,"text":"我講得很實情喔"},{"start":2744.685,"end":2757.59,"text":"議員大家都要各負責,包括今天對立公知法,我們上台講我們的話,你們上台講你的話,就大家罵嘛,即便已經院會結束以後,有人再出來開舉再罵一次,因為坦白講這個有"},{"start":2759.17,"end":2778.997,"text":"法案是很專業的,從一個角度看儀館揮爆,從另外一個角度看是不一樣的所以才會造成政治上很多衝突來糾紛,因為很多要很內行看到前茂的市長不多所以政治上才有工法嘛那我也在這裡期待就是說,我前面要跟你講啦"},{"start":2780.197,"end":2784.179,"text":"我們把總預算弄完但是我再建議在進行以前可能我們要先談一個事情因為總預算在整個廢棋這樣審完"},{"start":2802.862,"end":2825.235,"text":"總預算是兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行"},{"start":2827.705,"end":2829.026,"text":"希望這一屆畫上一個圓滿的記號好不好"},{"start":2855.919,"end":2883.156,"text":"好 陳教委好 院長 那個實地黨團在問 因為昨天這個是執政黨的這個發言 發文不當嘛所以我們延宕了昨天的協商 那今天我們協商這個通案完畢 要不要再繼續進行內政的這個預算提案的協商要說時間啦 我們早上晚上十幾點就好了 好不好"},{"start":2884.212,"end":2909.612,"text":"好 那就是聽聽大家要不要繼續在審那個內政 不然我們每次到這個時候就是一直加班一直加班嘛那不管誰 每一年都這樣好 這就是我的發言 因為你看大家都站在那裡因為期盼他們預算能夠有一個有一個走路吧所以今天我們先談一下就從 我們明天早上來談三點數多少 這個很重要"},{"start":2910.97,"end":2916.274,"text":"這幾天在協商希望民進黨黨不要再吐槽了你如果不在就再吐槽了那第二個晚上"},{"start":2939.569,"end":2963.762,"text":"10點吧 不要到12點10點就很晚了今天嗎今天最晚10點那我告訴你喔 保安有去交通的那些喔阿你們就錄在社會嘛 心情還沒打開那現在應該心情打開 趕快趕快撤 趕快撤 趕快送出來嘛他們一直很努力在溝通 今天下午也去溝通 每天都在溝通 好不好"},{"start":2964.502,"end":2987.026,"text":"因為我們要讓部會他們那個好暗想好暗想 因為有 本來是有兩個 一個就說看要多嚴幾點 一個就說二三個通案先解決 現在才比較早來 那就把它講清楚今天晚上到十點 那明天幾點開始 明天早上九點喔 過去都這樣啊九點到幾點 你講清楚 因為現在選舉到了"},{"start":2990.543,"end":3015.415,"text":"國際我們都是在這裡吃便當 有時候在熱身 火車委員會大概都要來嘛因為現在剩下四天而已啊對 那講完嘛 明天幾點 九點到幾點九點到十二點 十二點以後 換休息半個鐘頭 一個鐘頭 然後就一直接下去嘛雖然時間就下來 我們國際都吃完飯馬上來 有時候發便當嘛這現場採取的事情就可以了 看速度啦好好 後面啦 要過來"},{"start":3017.745,"end":3019.646,"text":"要九點還要十點啦?要九點還要十點啦?要九點還要十點啦?"},{"start":3047.073,"end":3047.273,"text":"主席"},{"start":3060.865,"end":3082.405,"text":"待會晚上10點 待會吃飯的時候休息 休息時間待會再來講但是呢 各部會很認真去溝通有約修改變成組結議 那些部分你們趕快聲明送上來我們再近啦 我們要想了想了好啦好啦 那我遞出來看看啦"},{"start":3084.802,"end":3085.722,"text":"行政院秘書長李孟彥先生"},{"start":3116.051,"end":3141.469,"text":"行政院主席總署主席長 朱哲銘先生財政部的 莊翠雲女士市會發展部的 唐鳳部長國防部的 邱國正部長暫時介紹到這裡介紹得到嗎我們請大家看第一案看通案的第一案"},{"start":3143.237,"end":3151.409,"text":"通案的第一案是要增列三千億啦這個是台灣民眾黨黨團是不是說明一下老了好不好 能夠說明好啦"},{"start":3153.144,"end":3177.677,"text":"說明一下好了啦好不好這個昨天有講過了啦財政部在11月公布今年10月稅收3兆223億的時候其實這幾年歷年來的稅收超增的部分大概都有平均1700億到1800億那其實財政部長他當時也表示今年會再增列"},{"start":3178.895,"end":3206,"text":"把這個113年度的稅收來去做一個相關的增列那財委會其實已經增列確定150億了150億了而且也要成立這個稅收估測專案小組所以明年的稅收跟時增數的這個預算數應該不會相差太遠那當時我們提這個案子後來來溝通是有同意說可以增列100億那當時現場的官員沒有異議但是後來好像回去之後有不同的意見"},{"start":3207.08,"end":3235.209,"text":"那我們在昨天財政部國會聯絡委員來本黨團溝通的時候表示這個一百億的甄列他們欠然同意所以希望說說策案或是保留那我們是覺得說這樣溝通的一個品質其實影響我們的互信原則所以我們還是希望就是說是不是可以甄列一百億那財政部要不要簡單說明一下如果沒有共識的話我們就保留好不好那其實這個最主要我們還是希望就是說"},{"start":3239.01,"end":3259.858,"text":"稅收超徵的部分 其實已經多年來這個數字其實基本當然3000億這個數字可以討論但是平均都1000多億 1700億這個是已經確定的數字但是應該優先用來還債 不應該都是還是透過發現金或是某種可能對外界來講是政策性的買票"},{"start":3261.059,"end":3286.341,"text":"優先還債的部分 包含勞保還有這些所謂的勞保的虧損的部分那台電的問題這個是另外的問題不應該都是把納稅人的錢去補這些台電的財務黑洞所以我們認為還是優先還債那你後面的這個償還計畫還有以勞保為主的這個部分應該要把它納入後續的不管是主決議或是你們整個預算提案的方向重點"},{"start":3287.222,"end":3287.583,"text":"請莊副長說明一下"},{"start":3295.676,"end":3306.925,"text":"主席以及各位委員大家好我想這一個提案也是督促我們第一個就是在預算籌編的時候對稅客收入能夠更為精準然後讓跟時增數會接近我想這個部分在113年估測我們的稅客收入的時候財政部已經成立了估測專案小組除了部本部以外還邀請相關機關以及專家學者來組成一個小組然後對每個稅務影響的因子都納進去考量一個稅務一個稅務的檢討"},{"start":3325.26,"end":3351.368,"text":"所以在113年的時候我們在籌編這個稅客收入的時候已經做了這樣的一個一個一個調整跟改進那這一今年呢願編的是兩兆兩千九百九十億比112年已經增加了一千零四十一億事實上就是有調增加我們的一個籌編的數然後在財委會的時候也增加了一百五十億所以在這個部分呢我們是建議是不是就是按照財委會當時決議按照我們原來送出的預算案的數"},{"start":3353.83,"end":3354.353,"text":"增加150億來做一個調整那另外"},{"start":3359.574,"end":3387.033,"text":"另外對於剛剛﹖不好意思﹖對於委員剛剛提到的就是這一百億的部分我們的同仁去溝通的時候也許表達的不夠明確跟完整所以有點誤會那我想這個部分也跟這邊邱委員這邊跟您說所以你們同意在針對一百億沒有沒有沒有說我們的同仁去可能您這邊有提到說一百億的時候我們的同仁可能在表達上沒有很完整講一下好不好還是說回來研議這樣子好"},{"start":3389.642,"end":3408.373,"text":"要保留嗎?好不好?不是啦 我是想建議就是說如果100億也不能 但是這幾年看起來都超徵超過千喔千億 所以到底你們的監測小組你有什麼信心覺得你今年你孤一一三年你是很精準我是覺得你的信用前兩年都破產了"},{"start":3409.437,"end":3434.712,"text":"所以在這裡才說你時增數如果往上調你還可以到時候不會在國會被大家指責說你的這個估算有誤所以第一個我是覺得這是第一問題第二就是說超增之後的用途到底是往補貼這個勞保的部分還是之前補貼台電的部分其實財政部都沒有自己的主張啊所以你現在到底是要用什麼方式來做最後超增之後的處理也是一個問題"},{"start":3436.221,"end":3452.163,"text":"市長我講一下好不好這幾個案子差不多類似的啦這個第三案第四案第五案第六案差不多類似的案子並在一起談啦"},{"start":3453.632,"end":3480.607,"text":"沒有啦,兩個都說一樣,這不是說電信包結就好了,我們有關的關係知道,大家想想看一下,可以不可以,還有一個案件我剛講前兩年估那麼不準,那現在你認為他的估測小組,你覺得他有什麼讓你有信心?我是想請教柯總長,你有什麼信心說他真的明年估得很準嗎?這才是關鍵你有一個人說保證百分之百準"},{"start":3481.627,"end":3496.718,"text":"他已經有一個小組了嘛所以說 估測專業小組嘛 他們會很專業去處理嘛而且明年已經增加一千三百億了 好不好這整個行喔 整個條件要整齊啦估測的部分 剛剛賴委員提問的部分"},{"start":3503.627,"end":3509.889,"text":"是 您剛剛當然賴委員有提到就是估測是不是已經精準但是我必須要跟委員報告我們已經在改進我們的估測方式在113年的時候跟往年都不一樣所以我們的目的就是每個稅目但是您說也能夠準到什麼程度其實因為估測到到時針完成有兩年的一個時間這兩年時間也會有一些變動的因素在裡面但是我們一定是盡力去做到估測能夠精準我想這個在113年已經呈現在我們的改進的方式上"},{"start":3533.154,"end":3539.536,"text":"委員提到如果有超出預算數的部分 這個錢是怎麼用 第一個我們是減少舉債比如說112年來說 原先在總預算裡面要舉借的1732億我們都沒有舉借 然後拿去還債 1110億在6月的時候就還掉了"},{"start":3554.139,"end":3582.591,"text":"（減少債息的付出（同時我們在11月又增加還債150億（所以我們第一個是減少舉借（第二個是我們增加還債（另外如果我們在整個到結束以後（也會累計到稅季剩餘（到稅季剩餘的時候（就作為以後年度的融資裁員（那另外對於勞保的撥補的部分（在稅出預算的部分（我記得在113年也有在做這個部分（那是稅出的編列部分（那在稅路的部分我們如果有"},{"start":3583.191,"end":3583.351,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3608.271,"end":3636.772,"text":"照你們現在的邏輯或法制性去保證可以撥補到勞保吧 對不對我想釐清這個那其他的部分就是在其他未來稅出未出的部分不是 他剛剛講的債是他的法定上面的一個方式對 他是納入稅計剩餘再撥補稅出的一種 對不對不是直接債的部分嘛OK 好了解好 那本案就保留"},{"start":3638.262,"end":3665.154,"text":"第一案保留請看第二案檢列半數第二案我來補充說明一下這一次的公務預算跟基金預算邊有關政策行銷費用超過21億那其實我長期追蹤這些政策行銷費用的去路幾乎啊"},{"start":3666.754,"end":3689.191,"text":"這民進黨很厲害啊用政府的錢洗人的腦多花包給我就不講嘛 三立啦民事嘛那每一年都統三百分之二十統三晚隔年又加了超過百分之二十又送來這典型的藐視立法院所以以前通常都三百分之二十"},{"start":3691.038,"end":3691.338,"text":"主委長講一下"},{"start":3716.74,"end":3744.445,"text":"主席主席長來這個案子我建議說我們在通商比例的時候再來討論有沒有通商比例在討論通商比例的時候不行啊 我要先確定啊你講這個沒有一定比例我們不要往下走啊不行啊這樣就威脅這樣根本不是威脅啊因為每一年都這樣子吧來 我們講理事長看要刪多少啦"},{"start":3746.065,"end":3748.927,"text":"實力也支持就是說我們的預算真的是要不要用在這個政黨的"},{"start":3770.922,"end":3771.302,"text":"政黨大內宣（"},{"start":3790.63,"end":3791.01,"text":"政黨大內宣"},{"start":3815.879,"end":3818.963,"text":"你不是整天講要記住正義嗎"},{"start":3821.82,"end":3848.63,"text":"不是啊,你用政府部門的預算來做這個大內宣,這樣怎麼會恰當?為什麼大內宣呢?其實政府本來就是要宣導自己的政策,這合理的範圍內而且一上來也寫得很清楚嘛,我們就照法令來處理吧這一提醒,我想因為回復到韓七年一樣,通常在處理,我先保留一下好不好"},{"start":3851.616,"end":3863.684,"text":"昨年是那個是三二十趴可是那個集管署還有那個防檢局的預算是排除集管署因為有疾病的防治防檢局有那個檢疫的那兩個排除"},{"start":3872.87,"end":3873.671,"text":"中央銀行的鈔票使用都不會牽連到"},{"start":3888.447,"end":3889.708,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3906.292,"end":3910.034,"text":"這些部位裡面哪個部位最誇張你知道嗎農業部啊 到現在109年"},{"start":3933.763,"end":3936.526,"text":"他用了3500萬去買媒體亂用 到現在 審計部還沒給他轉銷欸亂花錢啊"},{"start":3946.547,"end":3954.895,"text":"阿都,沒關係,那個是另外一個題目,我也不是很清楚你現在講的是對又錯啦這樣啦,我鼓勵,去年有一個大家經過很長的時間協調出來的那種結果先把拿出來我們再談,當指引吧,我們來看待好不好"},{"start":3968.979,"end":3996.886,"text":"院長我問一下那個主計長我剛剛說明的就是各部會他們的預算用在不同跟他們業務不相關的這個陣營宣傳或者是這樣可以嗎就是說環境部去宣傳軍工叫調薪環境部用政府宣傳政府挺勞工然後環境部宣傳投資大爆發"},{"start":4001.374,"end":4006.321,"text":"勞動部宣傳前瞻建設 水環境勞動部宣傳能源轉型"},{"start":4007.979,"end":4011.662,"text":"主席長這樣可以嗎這個我想比較符合他本來部的業務但是我剛剛講的這個都不符合真的是真的要講的啊"},{"start":4038.91,"end":4048.6,"text":"是不是這個我們就等到通商決定以後再來決定這一個案就是通商討論完回來見軍隊這個暫時保留"},{"start":4055.888,"end":4066.711,"text":"剛才也講過了這個東西是什麼?臉書上面的圖卡?這樣就行政不中立,如果是臉書難道宣傳不用錢嗎?那這樣行政不中立,環境部去宣傳別的"},{"start":4077.318,"end":4098.484,"text":"政府的那個變成大內宣那這樣適合嗎這行政院的政策轉傳臉書上面和所謂預算一點都沒有關係所以大家講話要講真實的要拿來這樣講話比較實際保留啦好不好我不要保留我不要保留要保留每次都保留啊你呢我不要通案回來我不要"},{"start":4099.384,"end":4107.689,"text":"委員長我不要,要保留就通通保留啊我不要,我就是不要沒有啦,不然這樣啦為什麼要照你的啊不是我照,我先講一個道理出來齁"},{"start":4118.456,"end":4120.037,"text":"那個報告院長據我知道那些有些部會"},{"start":4141.852,"end":4170.045,"text":"他是公益的廣告是根本沒有發到預算錢有些有些啦主計寫個報告好了啦我們這個資料再提供給主計那個臉書的東西也沒有錢你做圖也要人力啦你做的圖卡也要人力啊你PO也要人力啊什麼叫做PO臉書各部位的圖卡都轉傳嘛那怎麼回事反其他部會的圖卡"},{"start":4171.305,"end":4172.806,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":4193.941,"end":4197.623,"text":"政府的人力 各部份的人力去轉證變成大內宣這樣的方式也不懂啊一千萬一雙在台"},{"start":4219.107,"end":4223.009,"text":"去年20%太低啦!前一年30%啦!去年20%嘛!對!111年30%啦!那時他有1000萬以上才刪嘛!可以啊!"},{"start":4246.172,"end":4259.979,"text":"主席長,他的肯定才外界有部分嘛柯董造,這錢誰用你講的嘛誰用還不知道啦,你不要這麼堅持啦"},{"start":4261.667,"end":4271.053,"text":"現在我就是要提這一點在30天就要投票在投票之前 邏輯上 理論上不知道誰會當選因為這三個黨都有候選人所以說應該是"},{"start":4291.767,"end":4318.585,"text":"有些各部會是編的很節省因為全部的公務機關大概都十億左右十億啦至少從十二億一直降下來嘛政府 整體現場都走幾億了還有基金 合基金也十億這樣啦一千萬以上 今年二十趴啦 不要說三十趴啦增加百分之十就二十二趴嘛"},{"start":4319.994,"end":4320.394,"text":"我為人民把關阿"},{"start":4345.171,"end":4350.933,"text":"因為那個是用在購部會的政策﹖沒有用在政黨上啦現在在亂講話 你要看出來 農委會都花包了三粒零四啦那是後續的 後續的東西"},{"start":4369.121,"end":4369.761,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4392.931,"end":4394.052,"text":"要求防檢局跟集管署不能"},{"start":4409.502,"end":4409.582,"text":"主席"},{"start":4430.976,"end":4430.996,"text":"剪類20%"},{"start":4453.148,"end":4453.889,"text":"黃簡吉跟什麼?"},{"start":4475.772,"end":4476.293,"text":"其實過去執政黨底下"},{"start":4505.326,"end":4532.813,"text":"這個錯誤的政策比貪圖還可怕我講的是什麼數位輸入認證數位輸入認證沒有做阿沒有做阿你不記錄狀況但是還沒有做現在已經已經要賠多少錢你知道賠十億已經要賠十億啦就是因為立法院還沒有通過預算他就發包啦現在財務損失十億今年又變到六千多萬"},{"start":4536.274,"end":4543.677,"text":"董事長你問一下內政部數位發生認證就是立法院沒通過你等計畫通過再來吧好不好"},{"start":4561.476,"end":4564.117,"text":"行政部門關鍵民生系統經濟淫貪備份及回覆計畫"},{"start":4587.338,"end":4599.024,"text":"那句話已經說 當然有句話 不然怎麼編預算那你為什麼一次要編到113到116啊請部長說明嘛部長我先說一下 部長不是 院長 院長院長我要去臨庭 那如果有實例的提案 我們先保留好嗎 有有有"},{"start":4617.666,"end":4619.367,"text":"臨時提案臨時提案臨時提案臨時提案"},{"start":4648.37,"end":4648.79,"text":"委員會結束"},{"start":4677.135,"end":4696.912,"text":"這是第一次數位部用公共建設的程序公共建設大家了解四年的計畫常常第一年他是去做這種可行性的研擬去做作業程序的訂定我看這個提案主要在講的是說比較擔心說520之前好像什麼資料備份到海外"},{"start":4698.012,"end":4718.139,"text":"國發會已合併分年計劃,明年一整年是用來規劃這件事情,訂定這個程序,但並不是執行所謂的資料備份到海外。所以,我想是不是有可能把這個改成主決議,昨天有書面提供給國民黨團,就是把這邊倒數第六行都號右邊開始。"},{"start":4719.059,"end":4739.121,"text":"改成說請數位發展部向立法院交通委員會提出強烈各計劃名稱﹑各年度期程﹑基金費等細項說明之書面報告因為我們本來明年一整年就是在做規劃並沒有要跨境傳輸以上問一下你這個是先期計劃核定整體的計劃核定了嗎"},{"start":4740.388,"end":4751.493,"text":"因為我們先期的計劃是由國發會合定明年的預算我們在討論是明年的預算那整體計劃行政院合定了沒有整體計劃目前還在行政院審議中"},{"start":4757.835,"end":4779.523,"text":"萬一現在審議不夠你是不是要重蹈數位說明證的這個覆測那沒有關係阿有喔這有關於議題備言的問題吧整理計畫還沒有合併 等現在合併再說吧那目前不會有這種情形 明年度沒有這種情形未來會不會有 還要等下實現那個"},{"start":4780.623,"end":4789.834,"text":"老柯 因為這涉及到13億啦涉及到13億 整體計畫還沒核定搞不好新任政委哥不想核定那你要編"},{"start":4792.281,"end":4793.342,"text":"這先跳過去"},{"start":4811.977,"end":4813.817,"text":"請看第四案主決議沒有意見就通過"},{"start":4838.707,"end":4861.621,"text":"這麼重要的當然要跟財委會做一個專案報告 這個不要改書面啦你現在 漢政府執政期間稅收估測 嚴重失準這不可能奧改的事情啦這這麼重要的 有些可以放啦 小事情可以放啦這麼重要的事情 真的是要做專案報告我們今天處理的時候 院長"},{"start":4864.724,"end":4889.592,"text":"我們在處理有些原則性我先定下來才不會每一次都要來講我們過去處理總預算的時候都因為原則性一個月改三個月那專案報告改順便報告因為這麼多的總共兩千多萬像我們這七年處理的順便報告只有三千多個順便報告所以這個量體很大"},{"start":4891.192,"end":4918.231,"text":"這個都是下一屆的事情尤其書面報告讓大家都可以永遠都看得到可是專案報告有直播紀錄啊而且重點案件像現在打詐的現在速發布的這些因為這是最後一期的預算啊接下來明年就有新的委員所以我們希望就是說"},{"start":4919.091,"end":4940.009,"text":"還是照我們以前的慣例 專案報告改成書面報告我就宣布一下啦 就是說照過去 我來三年多了嘛慣例都是 如果說一個月兩個月都改為三個月啦那專案報告都改為書面報告那如果有特別有意見 到時候提出來就這樣可是這個就是特別有意見"},{"start":4941.934,"end":4964.119,"text":"沒關係啦 我跟你講啦齁 大家都不同沒關係 你是紐約委員 已經最信任了所謂專案報告只要招委一排的話 不必他們同意這是議法委員主動發動權嘛所以我們 你現在這樣要求說 你要來專案報告 這是我們的權益你要要求你先來給我書面報告 看不好我給你專案報告 該叫來"},{"start":4964.899,"end":4967.022,"text":"因為重要的才要改為專案報告 其他不重要的都改成書條"},{"start":4987.642,"end":4988.183,"text":"我宣布一下"},{"start":5003.233,"end":5003.833,"text":"實在力量黨團．國民黨黨團都已經"},{"start":5025.433,"end":5050.111,"text":"將那個部會溝通結果 送到內政委員會那其他的黨團 也請趕快送到內政委員會以例 做通案結束後 內政委員會部分 就可以後續協商這樣 就拜託晚上我們六點休息到六點半七點"},{"start":5056.374,"end":5085.486,"text":"6點"},{"start":5088.271,"end":5093.234,"text":"6點到7點6點到7點7點開會開到10點明天再去幾點?九點半好不好?九點半好不好?沒有沒有我還有回我還知道還有回"},{"start":5109.747,"end":5110.528,"text":"明天早上九點半"},{"start":5123.905,"end":5124.646,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5148.152,"end":5148.792,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6015.438,"end":6017.72,"text":"主席"},{"start":6034.397,"end":6038.259,"text":"主席總助可不可以刪掉我比較自私一點"},{"start":6066.104,"end":6068.465,"text":"修正後提供"},{"start":6096.53,"end":6098.032,"text":"行政院也刪掉那是誰邀集阿"},{"start":6112.152,"end":6138.932,"text":"我建議一下這邊是不是原提案要求財政部也就是行政院召集主計總署這一段文字是不是就就蓋成要求財政部來召集相關單位召開會議檢討那大概就是成立了有財政部來邀集那另外就是最後一行的專案報告是不是修正為稅收估測精進書面報告"},{"start":6141.958,"end":6164.166,"text":"部長您這個相關單位其他相關單位是哪些單位其他相關單位這個我們第一個會邀請政府機關包含國發會主計總署中央銀行那另外也會邀請相關的專家學者一起來成立一個監討會議跟估測小組所以是包含了有關的我們都會邀請"},{"start":6165.046,"end":6166.507,"text":"我們曾民宗總專還是建議是要專案報告"},{"start":6195.131,"end":6195.652,"text":"這不是書面?這不是書面?"},{"start":6216.308,"end":6217.088,"text":"第四案就這樣,請看第五案"},{"start":6249.306,"end":6249.546,"text":"第五案"},{"start":6274.773,"end":6276.815,"text":"我意思是說這個是國民黨團提出來的意見意見是可行的"},{"start":6303.191,"end":6327.057,"text":"你為什麼要改我們的文字呢那協商啊不啊協商可以啊我不同意啊我們黨的文字是專業的啊你說改書面我也答應你又給我改文字那你現在應該怎樣就照原來文字改書面就好啦不是啦不是啦差不多對於他的改文字裡面你你至少對啦"},{"start":6330.241,"end":6352.576,"text":"欸這個本人在財政部做常識資格做這麼久我怎麼不知道你又改文字好啦尊重委員啦尊重委員啦對啊尊重委員尊重總專的意見所以有關於第五案第五案的主席主要修改兩個字就是專案改為書面報告這個可以嗎可以嗎齁"},{"start":6356.442,"end":6359.004,"text":"行政單位一定要去執行,不執行就是堵職"},{"start":6383.116,"end":6392.944,"text":"好 謝謝委員那第七案就修正通過好 第八案請國防部說明請委員會啦 並經委員會就好了"},{"start":6396.32,"end":6417.707,"text":"我跟各位報告一下,這個建議就是委員會有決議,就並委員會的決議來做裁定以後第一預備軍的動用,已經設定兩個條件第一個假如說已經建案的,要持續不足的,那我們要經過行政院的同意,而且會跟立法院做核備"},{"start":6420.227,"end":6435.812,"text":"如果沒有建案,我們要用的話,一定要跟立法院外交管委員會做專案的報告而且完成的建案程序再做專案報告報告經過外交管委會同意以後,然後使得動之"},{"start":6437.212,"end":6449.839,"text":"這個在10月25號已經跟委員會裡面做的說明了,建議就按照委員會決議的來辦理這樣的話就完全合法,符合預算法的規定那跟這個組結有什麼衝突呢?"},{"start":6451.51,"end":6453.251,"text":"部長 您的建議我尊重你就把我們的組決議改成"},{"start":6480.188,"end":6494.236,"text":"委員會的類似的文句吧,這樣就可以了,好不好就改成跟委員會決議類似的文句就好了,好不好,一樣達成你的原來的目的嘛,謝謝"},{"start":6502.112,"end":6503.372,"text":"就修正通過"},{"start":6532.318,"end":6534.759,"text":"第九案文字稍微修正一下"},{"start":6546.038,"end":6570.763,"text":"倒數第二行那個以濟暴方式那五個字可能刪除一下因為我們的這個計畫它完成的時間是不定期的所以什麼時候完成我們就什麼時候上網公告那你要把它寫清楚喔你要說什麼時候完成這個把它改文字敘述出來喔那我們就講說以濟暴方式那個文字刪掉那你要一個時間嘛要一個時間你說它已經完成就上網了啦沒有把它寫進來喔"},{"start":6571.724,"end":6571.744,"text":"好"},{"start":6586.522,"end":6586.902,"text":"對不起吧"},{"start":6616.548,"end":6628.243,"text":"對所以行政院定制所以我知道行政院自己有沒有一個時間因為4月要成立那個研議小組所以希望不要拖到明年什麼五一再公告這是不太對的一個立法的這個目的"},{"start":6629.742,"end":6656.637,"text":"我們會在總統府公告這個法案以後競訴有沒有可能在年底主席你不要幫他講那麼多因為就是現在勞工在傳就是說我們立院很快的通過了可是到底實施日期是什麼所以我希望行政院競訴也確定看看好不好讓大家不要覺得我們立法上面"},{"start":6656.937,"end":6658.778,"text":"第9案文字修正通過第10案照案通過"},{"start":6682.076,"end":6695.482,"text":"請看11案11案有一個修正建議請大家參考11案請大家看這張有沒有 如果沒有的話請說一下我們會按照預算法的規定馬上辦理"},{"start":6698.709,"end":6701.991,"text":"11案修正通過12案遵照辦理13案遵照辦理14案"},{"start":6721.56,"end":6746.334,"text":"環境部這邊報告已經跟賴委員那邊討論過了那賴委員也同意然後這個國民黨黨團也蓋章了好OK那就修正通過對不對14案修正通過好請看第15案人道辦理好章案通過第15案章案通過16案子捷役人事處人事處人總車案車案"},{"start":6751.953,"end":6756.638,"text":"16案測案17案照案通過18案主決議"},{"start":6773.572,"end":6779.5,"text":"是不是可以建議由專題報告改為書面報告是不是好18案主決議專題報告改為書面報告修正通過"},{"start":6787.579,"end":6806.752,"text":"請看19案19案已經發給在國會委員黨那我們是說2個月內就相關籌資計畫提出書面報告19案主席沒有意見就修正通告請看20案"},{"start":6816.136,"end":6828.34,"text":"來順便報告啦這個很多做一些行政不中立的事請主委講一下吧好,有沒有意見有,有意見"},{"start":6846.312,"end":6848.553,"text":"市長有修正文字修正文字修正通過"},{"start":6872.524,"end":6885.849,"text":"主委請說明一下跟各位委員報告這個是我們嚴密會補助民間的一個文化健康站它是計劃型的補助"},{"start":6903.036,"end":6928.322,"text":"跟那個業聘人員是不一樣的這是社團的補助案沒有問你到底是不是補助案阿應該說不管是不是補助案就是這個健康站你們補助那他的這個造福員是不是有穿相關候選人的競選背心阿這個才是重點阿"},{"start":6929.751,"end":6957.865,"text":"你要是有穿那即使你是補助也是不行啊那假如他沒有穿就沒有問題但是他是有穿被抓到了的話那當然你們就得檢討啊即使你們是補助民間的那樣也不行啊上班時間是沒有穿啦上班時間沒有穿啦所以這個重點是您的意思是說所謂上班時間因為他這裡面"},{"start":6959.406,"end":6961.908,"text":"吳立法委員在臉書上曾經說沒有這回事情"},{"start":6977.866,"end":6980.448,"text":"文化健康站造福源"},{"start":7004.954,"end":7017.242,"text":"應該說吳亦華委員會有他的想法但是當事人會有他的說法所以才要原民會來說明不是嗎還是要修正通過因為我們也常常接到"},{"start":7026.67,"end":7049.491,"text":"我們同等反應 原民會都利用各種活動在助選網站上或是電視上或是有一些照片 真的很明顯所以我們這個案子也是督促原民會 做 可以做 不要太誇張那是不是你們文字修正是不是你收掉這個都沒有那個了"},{"start":7053.393,"end":7074.238,"text":"一年一手行政中立就對了啊後面那個有不同意見的人看法,有時候有這種事情反正重新修正一下要行政中立就建議文字修正你文字是不是再重寫一下修正文字再重寫一下,等一下先保留怎麼重寫完"},{"start":7078.444,"end":7081.805,"text":"主協議文字你們再寫一下再拿過來大家再看現在就暫時保留就看文字以後再講請看22案"},{"start":7104.462,"end":7104.924,"text":"請看21案21案"},{"start":7110.872,"end":7138.469,"text":"21案有跟陳佳華委員溝通原則上修改一小段文字後面陳佳華委員堅持的那一段我們就保留就留著這樣子前面一段拿掉後面那段留著就是避免政府機關這個部分還是不用刪掉嘛對 前面歌功頌德宣揚政績那個刪掉這樣子好 那個我們可以贊成但是後面避免政府"},{"start":7139.189,"end":7139.729,"text":"保留保留我意見"},{"start":7157.879,"end":7160.961,"text":"我們是希望避免讓民眾誤會﹑或者是認為執政單位﹑執政黨"},{"start":7187.674,"end":7188.074,"text":"那現在修正通過"},{"start":7215.979,"end":7243.597,"text":"就是復原律師長對不對就是我想我們在各個部會的臉書不會出現政黨的名字不會幫政黨宣傳但是部會的臉書去幫行政院的政績宣傳應該是可以那這個文字沒有什麼錯阿不會有特定政黨的問題所以這個文字沒什麼錯嘛這文字保留這個文字保留"},{"start":7245.495,"end":7246.155,"text":"好,那這樣"},{"start":7271.38,"end":7283.226,"text":"二十一案就文字修正通過二十一案的主決議請看二十二案二十二案就是只有改一個字改一個字應改成以啦我不贊成阿為什麼你知道我後來當了總召"},{"start":7301.482,"end":7327.524,"text":"你現在就當總召 怎麼後來要當總召我做八年立委沒有每一年都做我做了三年總召每一次到司法法制去一下子法務部有一件一下司法院有一件朝委協商完 司法院有一件法務部有一件浪費國家的資源兩個會選 一個法務部 一個行政院送來法案 長長"},{"start":7329.773,"end":7337.762,"text":"法務部跟司法院沒有意見 常常還麻煩你這個大總召來協商沒有關係啦 可一點沒有關係不用不用不用"},{"start":7341.543,"end":7361.222,"text":"因為坦白講,很多法案,司法院、法務部本來就有不同立場,包括我們提議的最近刑法185之3,所以就很有經驗法務部的堅持後來跟司法院協商溝通以後,還是用司法院的文職,所以南北會有這種情形"},{"start":7362.557,"end":7380.205,"text":"等一下喔 司法院有沒有意見那個司法院沒來 那個我們必須因為我們行政單位行政單位沒有辦法一定要聽行政院的啦因為五院是平行的 我們沒辦法 我們盡量溝通啦我們盡量溝通啦我的想法是假設少數案子是這樣子嘛幾乎每個案子這樣子"},{"start":7391.792,"end":7417.668,"text":"沒有啦,很久了你都沒來執行,你四個月都不來阿你沒來執行,都不知道阿每一個月都是我在最後整理的阿我四個月是三年,我怎麼不去執行呢我都還不去執行,就知道你們在搞什麼阿我都學長了嘛,不知道報告形式補償也是一樣嘛,國家資金也是一樣嘛"},{"start":7418.729,"end":7421.892,"text":"23案農業部有做文字修正,那是不是可以說明?"},{"start":7447.103,"end":7470.814,"text":"因為整個組決議裡面 最主要是針對蛋液要納入農產品的標示根據我們的食品安全衛生管理法的第三條因為蛋液它已經是加工的產品它是一個包裝的食品它沒有辦法納入到我們的農產品的一個溯源的標示體系所以我們建議文字修正是第四行"},{"start":7473.035,"end":7499.856,"text":"地上寫突顯政府在蛋液後面納入農產品溯源標誌系統上把它劃掉然後加一個蛋液的管理為爭完善然後另外倒數第六行開始因於六個月競速強制將蛋液納入農產品標誌系統要求養雞場主動申報不良蛋同時這幾個字劃掉以上"},{"start":7502.202,"end":7502.882,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7525.796,"end":7541.788,"text":"可以嗎我要提醒喔是代理部長就是你先代理一段時間啦是代理期間啦用錢不要像你們陳吉仲偉大的部長亂用錢那個審計部還沒有還沒轉銷對不對他多少錢還沒轉銷3600萬對從109年到現在全用喔亂用錢"},{"start":7556.243,"end":7562.926,"text":"主席長在這裏啊 很多的主席主任 主席 主席出任 不敢做捏 緊揍捏誰啊 你要講柯文哲啊 又讓過來了"},{"start":7584.11,"end":7601.094,"text":"這個23案部長因為其實你劃掉的部分其實講直白重點就是六個月內但你現在把它劃掉了你基本上就是說應該要要求單一業者應該標示但是我們寫這個組決議就是希望你有個時間的規範"},{"start":7603.513,"end":7622.911,"text":"你把六個月畫掉了我跟委員說明因為蛋液是一個包裝食品它不是在農產品的範疇所以也沒辦法放到農產品的溯源標示體系我也跟委員報告所有的雞蛋在蛋廠出來了以後都有溯源碼"},{"start":7623.792,"end":7623.852,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7642.791,"end":7644.132,"text":"《中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":7664.039,"end":7664.299,"text":"主席"},{"start":7679.831,"end":7693.389,"text":"是完全沒辦法執行的那這個部分因為在洗選場的時候他會經過洗選的過程中就會把不良蛋就會挑掉了所以這個部分對於我們消費者的安全是一定是不會有疑慮的"},{"start":7695.831,"end":7699.173,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分８立法院黨團協商：完整會議"},{"start":7722.625,"end":7724.666,"text":"文字已經修正好了 大家沒有意見的話 我們也是修正通過好不好"},{"start":7750.662,"end":7751.744,"text":"是不是奧斯案"},{"start":7767.219,"end":7784.291,"text":"二十案剛才有暫時保留 文字修正現在修正這樣可以嗎?可以啦可以可以齁?好 二十案的文字修正通過等一下等一下等一下不要啦 那有立法 那就不一樣不一樣的價格 那為了好啦因為出賣便宜不行"},{"start":7792.756,"end":7794.276,"text":"平東縣政府那一部分"},{"start":7824.132,"end":7830.547,"text":"行動證書給他們拿掉就好了我們來畫啦我們來畫好 OK"},{"start":7832.352,"end":7861.469,"text":"好 屏東縣政府那個這個花吊 四個字嘛好對不對 四個字好 該會再拿來看好不好二十案就是他改好以後我們再來看好 來 現在這個通案二十三案遲到二十案等一下還要看文字以外其他的我們都已經有處理好 有處理"},{"start":7866.559,"end":7867.259,"text":"保留也是用處理"},{"start":7873.285,"end":7877.766,"text":"20案修正通過現在通案23號已經處理告一段落,那就要休息"},{"start":7896.963,"end":7917.31,"text":"阿休息我跟他報告一下因為內政委員會我們接下來就內政委員會內政委員會因為我們到五點多的有的黨團才給他阿所以說他們給他們準備一下反正要到七點才會付所以我們等於要休息到七點他們現在在觀光啦你要給同仁或者刑事機關齁這個準備的時間阿那我們要不要切說"},{"start":7924.298,"end":7936.626,"text":"最晚10點 但是假設提早結束就提早結束了到哪個部院長那個21案有再修正文字確認一下好嗎提早結束就快了最晚"},{"start":7940.509,"end":7961.865,"text":"10點 假設內政結束也切掉21案的再確認文字宣布一下21案的文字再修正有再修正有再唸一下嗎"},{"start":7980.667,"end":7980.687,"text":"19點準時開會"},{"start":12733.885,"end":12741.689,"text":"現在繼續開會我先有件事情跟大家報告徵求大家的意見"},{"start":12743.311,"end":12743.952,"text":"以加速學商進度"},{"start":12766.237,"end":12781.396,"text":"113年度總預算案 針對各機關通案刪減用途別項目﹖是否就依主計總署所擬的這份通商項目辦理至於通商的比例、金額等"},{"start":12782.837,"end":12787.06,"text":"與黨團協商討論再去決定這樣有沒有意見跟主席報告一下這個項目跟往年都一樣"},{"start":12807.424,"end":12808.104,"text":"主委長113總共有14項對不對"},{"start":12837.099,"end":12854.749,"text":"那一二十二項一一十二項一一零十二項對不對曾嘉南兩項是不是有些一般書會分開來一一這是一一二的一一二的不是啦這家的項目是哪一個項目"},{"start":12856.229,"end":12863.276,"text":"都一樣啊都一樣啊都一樣因為那個是怎麼樣十三十四是那個調整項目就是總數十二個項都一樣的"},{"start":12874.121,"end":12899.735,"text":"確定就是先讓他們去蓋我剛才講那個金額跟比例並沒有決定就是我們還要討論我們討論以後就決定這個院長遲早要決定的那現在是在第五而已我們還要談一個總是算多少說明天早上要決定的不可能都不一定數嘛"},{"start":12901.26,"end":12903.22,"text":"通山用土北橡木玉泥"},{"start":12931.087,"end":12941.41,"text":"其實蓋也不一定來得及,看到就講通山通山就知道了不一定回得來這都沒辦法,都修兩年,回兩年再來全部幾項不是要給"},{"start":12957.677,"end":12958.397,"text":"總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?"},{"start":12988.822,"end":12989.602,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13011.134,"end":13031.116,"text":"現在我們就來進行行政院主管行政院主管我們看案號第一案第一案沒有意見我們就通過第一案因為裡面有幾個文字"},{"start":13032.588,"end":13057.443,"text":"他有講到如此怠惰的行政效能那另外就是說這個部分放任屬下機關是不是這兩行字眼把它刪掉那你有把它文字修正寫出來嗎有有在大家的桌上有三大概兩行多的字有啦 十分啦十分啦十二分啦十二三千"},{"start":13061.254,"end":13061.614,"text":"第一案在這裡啦"},{"start":13094.682,"end":13097.605,"text":"麻煩各部會如果有修正的書面就提早發下去"},{"start":13122.025,"end":13150.548,"text":"好 第一案就剛才已經宣布了就修正通過第二案改組決議沒有意見通過第三案改組決議沒有意見通過第四案改組決議沒有意見通過第五案文字修正凍結一千塊沒有意見通過一千元嘛一千元齁第四案是嗎 第五案第五案文字修正凍結一千元沒有意見通過"},{"start":13152.366,"end":13178.807,"text":"第六案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第七案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第八案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第九案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第十案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第十一案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過"},{"start":13179.881,"end":13186.565,"text":"搜案有建議修改組決議,但是委員可能要討論一下搜案有一個建議的版本請看搜案"},{"start":13212.814,"end":13237.743,"text":"你要改 希望改組決議喔沒有啦 我們這個就是希望能夠動決讓你們可以去這個監督他是不是履行阿因為他到現在為止 對不對他連 因為宗家案這個是一個這麼這個他要以這個10年40億的慈善支出他到現在都沒有去捐嘛"},{"start":13239.401,"end":13244.776,"text":"對啊這也不是A組有答應要處理"},{"start":13246.291,"end":13254.098,"text":"委員會是怎麼處理委員會沒有怎麼處理啊因為現在我們就是希望說在院的這個部分因為NCC會說這可能是教育部去督促的嘛"},{"start":13272.133,"end":13289.758,"text":"但是事實上人家教育部長的說法就是說哪一個這個機關所做的處分就是由那個機關去做監理然後這個陳院長我在質詢他的時候他的見解是這樣可是NCC還是一直在講說是教育部應該要去"},{"start":13290.658,"end":13307.153,"text":"去瞭解然後或者是說去處理這個公益信託到底有沒有捐所以這個就是在互踢皮球的這個狀況所以我們才是希望說院可以去處理這個問題嘛對啊所以才會這樣說行政院徹底檢討這個問題然後到底是說這個各機關公益信託監管的這個狀況"},{"start":13318.049,"end":13319.79,"text":"請法務部為什麼又跟法務部有關"},{"start":13347.12,"end":13371.534,"text":"也跟信託法 公益信託法 主管機關是法務部那也請NCC也提出所以你在加入NCC這樣這個就照行政修正修正嘛對好不好 沒有你這個上面沒有NCC阿你是說"},{"start":13372.722,"end":13376.844,"text":"公務信託法已經在立法院所以應該委員會也在排審階段所以是不是這個部分已經在進行中"},{"start":13401.417,"end":13416.7,"text":"那也要尊重立院職權的行使行政委員,行政委員有改,你要督促法務部或是NC都可以我記得你這一題已經在交通委員會已經講過很多次了"},{"start":13432.386,"end":13436.007,"text":"第12案保留請看第13案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":13450.259,"end":13477.533,"text":"十四案改組決議,沒有意見通過十五案改組決議,沒有意見通過十六案凍結兩萬元這個我們有修正一些文字修正的文字可以講一下嗎,好像有看到是要改組決議嘛,對不對對就照那個行政院改的,可以改成組決議"},{"start":13480.55,"end":13482.171,"text":"十七案改組結議十八案凍結100萬年"},{"start":13508.874,"end":13510.995,"text":"請看19案通山科目19案這個剛剛賴市保委員有簽名就是凍結5%提書面報告通山"},{"start":13536.38,"end":13540.722,"text":"通商用通商19案所謂通商就併通商客戶處理20案檢列800萬元有沒有意見通案的21案"},{"start":13560.809,"end":13583.115,"text":"委員長 這個不能夠說這個各部會的這個社群平台都是這樣處理啊因為他根本跟他的這個業務一點關係都沒有那他在講的是別人的事情欸那怎麼會這樣 一個機關基本上在一個法治國裡面他就是有他的職長的分配嘛 對不對 不然的話幹嘛要設立這些組織法"},{"start":13584.608,"end":13600.106,"text":"那怎麼可能是說你今天農業部的這個粉磚然後都在處理其他的部會的那你自己都沒事做了嗎你剛才沒有來這個已經通過了對阿我是跟他講阿我知道說這個是從來沒有案子已處理過這個資訊本來跟我們可以分享嘛"},{"start":13603.47,"end":13632.031,"text":"政府的資訊 欸 這不可以這樣說阿那你都沒有在聽我講話阿都沒有在聽我講話阿因為是行政院下面有一個部會 因為不是說只有一個行政院下面沒有任何的組織法欸因為你是業務的執掌阿我剛剛有在講 你都沒有在聽阿這都被有這都被有組織法結果你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去"},{"start":13632.771,"end":13634.471,"text":"現在二十案跟二十一案怎麼樣"},{"start":13655.888,"end":13659.549,"text":"20案跟21案,因為前面已經有通過通案,那這個就併通案處理,對不對?修改內容"},{"start":13680.117,"end":13680.157,"text":"20號案動結200萬元"},{"start":13690.555,"end":13694.276,"text":"21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留"},{"start":13721.03,"end":13723.411,"text":"這個有改組決議,黨團也蓋章了"},{"start":13745.25,"end":13746.411,"text":"改組協議24案改組協議沒有見通過25案25 26因為"},{"start":13770.963,"end":13777.346,"text":"有希望能夠改組決議,文字修正,但是委員還沒有簽名,沒有同意。"},{"start":13791.591,"end":13812.867,"text":"委員長26這涉及到集會遊行法的這個修法那這個一直到現在為止都行政院都還不能夠提出版本這是非常不應該的因為在2016年蔡總統上任就是說要落實國家對排除人民集會遊行法限制的這個承諾"},{"start":13814.008,"end":13830.8,"text":"那我們可以看到是說現在台灣的這個集會遊行法他還要採取這個事前的許可制然後對這個禁制區等等又有很多的這個要求甚至就是在這個限制及命令解散的制度"},{"start":13831.32,"end":13845.378,"text":"那所以這個是非常非常落後的然後到現在為止行政院也都還不提出一個版本那這個顯然跟我現在在這個科目上面你這個叫做人權及轉型正義"},{"start":13846.98,"end":13872.143,"text":"那這個部分是非常的諷刺啦你如果說你要落實這個人權及轉型正義的話那這種極惡遊行的惡法基本上都是國民黨時代留下來這種威權體制的這個象徵嘛那比較法上面即使隨便看一個國家你就會知道說這個是完全就是不想要讓人民極惡遊行的這個法律所以我們希望就是說"},{"start":13874.745,"end":13888.449,"text":"這個針對這個人權及轉型正義的經費提案凍結兩百萬請問一下我們這一屆並沒有實列遊行法沒有人提過行政也沒有送來另外有沒有版本"},{"start":13891.21,"end":13911.485,"text":"我們有啊 我們有版本啊這個是過去在這個民進黨執政 民進黨從2008年的野草莓的學運的時候時任的黨主席蔡英文總統就在自由廣場簽然後簽了這一個人權永久保固書嘛"},{"start":13912.807,"end":13933.88,"text":"那時候的承諾說未來民進黨無論在朝或在野都會為了這個集會結社自由等這一些法治來努力啊柯總裁你應該非常清楚才對啊你怎麼還會再問這種事情我變得更清楚所有過程都講過所有過程都走過你不要再亂講通了我都還沒講完都亂講我現在回答你的問題你應該在自由檢討說為什麼"},{"start":13942.265,"end":13955.861,"text":"這個集會遊行法你從2016年開始民進黨完全執政到現在都還沒有辦法通過一個院版能夠跟其他的國家法制主義國家可以這個看齊嘛對啊"},{"start":13956.989,"end":13979.046,"text":"委員跟主席報告就是這個案子院也有提出一個修正的文字那是不是可以可以就是說讓我們在3個月內提出書面報告那凍結是不是可以併整個科目的凍結50萬這樣子我們有一個建議的文字那因為這個部分內政部還在研擬的階段好這個"},{"start":13987.421,"end":13988.864,"text":"他就變主決議 他就沒有凍結啦對啊該主決議"},{"start":13999.377,"end":14001.038,"text":"民進黨在野的時候也是認為說這是一個惡法"},{"start":14019.609,"end":14044.967,"text":"那我們2020年就提出了 你現在還在問現在這個 坦白講你沒有提出 你就是要檢討了沒有提出 他們也提出過了那市長 那這一屆都沒有人審過沒有審過是因為 第一個沒有院版嘛他院根本沒有版 他到現在他還在想說他最近要提出一個什麼草案什麼之類的"},{"start":14046.442,"end":14047.223,"text":"27案改組決議沒有見通過28案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":14073.834,"end":14101.007,"text":"二十九案並通算科目範出辦禮二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十"},{"start":14105.036,"end":14133.028,"text":"那就請看30案30案有一個建議是併案來凍結有簡單的文字修正就只有一行這個想要先保留我們不想併那個好30案那保留好來31案簽字這已經同意了"},{"start":14136.352,"end":14147.519,"text":"同意併案凍結好併哪一個案併整個科目50萬那就31案就併委員會結議辦理對不對對好來併委員會結議辦理然後32案是不是也併委員會結議辦理"},{"start":14158.87,"end":14159.03,"text":"剪列10萬"},{"start":14177.518,"end":14182.701,"text":"10萬,變少了剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬員,沒見通過33案並通案,科目辦理"},{"start":14202.984,"end":14203.104,"text":"來看34案"},{"start":14232.201,"end":14237.129,"text":"主決議 沒意見通過主決議 沒意見通過主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":14245.222,"end":14245.962,"text":"哪一個部分驚悚?"},{"start":14273.086,"end":14300.614,"text":"中央政府政務禁用人員逃射風波不斷 這個驚悚嗎哪一段 比較刺激一點 這個不是事實嗎 逃射風波不斷 最近不在剛發生嗎 哪裡有刺激哪一段驚悚 我看不出來 雖然我們有兩行的修正建議 是不是麻煩你先告訴我們哪一段驚悚 怎麼可以隨便污衊我們洪孟凱委員的提案哪一段驚悚 逃射風波不斷"},{"start":14303.008,"end":14303.929,"text":"希望對張子敬政委"},{"start":14329.741,"end":14330.121,"text":"秘書長結案什麼時候公佈"},{"start":14354.028,"end":14377.337,"text":"修正的保留是不是可以保留好 那就是事實後案就保留我們結案什麼時候要公布這個我們會請已經有給院長看過也確認這個部分我們會對外來做說明什麼時候43案主結議沒見召喚通過14案主結議沒有見召喚通過45案主結議沒有見召喚通過46案"},{"start":14385.219,"end":14401.71,"text":"有沒有意見46案是對於現階段他這個是針對陳院長的在補選的裡面的一些意見那是不是這個能夠保留哪一個不符合事實哪一段不符合事實請說明兩個不是真的你講一下吧"},{"start":14403.479,"end":14429.362,"text":"假視察征服選,哪一段不符合事實?我們有具體舉出來,10月15日出席高雄軟體園區科技大學開工典禮,10月30日國山行程交流道...先講一下,說不定我們可以測哪一段是不正確的講一下11月15日原來安排前往花東視察,卻更改行程前往民進黨花東肇事活動但用行政資源利用上班時間進行拜校服選"},{"start":14430.815,"end":14431.596,"text":"院的建議在哪裡?我們沒有看到"},{"start":14458.597,"end":14465.661,"text":"你們如果說文字修正就要提東西要給我們看如果沒有你就不要講喔齁"},{"start":14486.391,"end":14487.352,"text":"上台支持公安幫民進黨候選人拉票"},{"start":14505.261,"end":14507.242,"text":"陳建仁院長事情我們來慎重處理 來看看吧"},{"start":14535.263,"end":14554.25,"text":"趕快阿他已經講了阿所以他們沒有意見阿默認阿立法院黨不認真阿我們建議這個案子還是保留我們比較慎重的不要不要慎重你先拿來看吧為什麼要保留是哪一段不符合實情立法院黨拿來看啦"},{"start":14556.567,"end":14562.328,"text":"要擺的全部以下都保留喔還是你沒辦法說明 請院長自己來46案啦 46案啦 行政中立的問題阿來一位陳建仁先生阿 你明白喔"},{"start":14590.493,"end":14595.838,"text":"這上面都有寫阿 10月15號出席高雄軟體園區科技大學 具體事證都寫出來喔"},{"start":14597.884,"end":14620.245,"text":"不是 他現在說的是陳建仁 不是立委陳建仁陳建仁院長多次利用公務假視察政府選公然為民進黨籍候選人輔選拉票高雄每一個都說我們立委啊這不譴責 這不錯啦 民進黨 文字拿出來啊不然 院長 政府要拿出來啊政府的資源辦了 典禮勒政府的資源辦了 也不是你民進黨自己辦可以啦是不是 民進黨家 講不出來"},{"start":14624.81,"end":14639.586,"text":"行政院長陳建仁公然在上面拉票他有主持主持可以但不用在上面拉票嘛這是不對的嘛他怎麼拉票啊公然123你看123的跳一下上台支持公然幫民進黨候選人拉票啊"},{"start":14640.146,"end":14643.348,"text":"11月14號花東立委總部現任的總部是民進黨的吧讓民進黨及候選人穿敬賢背心上台對誰提案的來說明一下"},{"start":14670.743,"end":14675.004,"text":"你現在是做行政的秘書長喔?沒有啦,你給秘書長說啦"},{"start":14696.237,"end":14710.343,"text":"完全執政 完全護航就對了民政院長去到任何地方去報紙或剪輯反正都會通知當地立法委員還不通知就比較沒辦法 沒錯阿但是這邊是通知民進黨的候選人喔 不是立法委員喔花東不是民進黨喔"},{"start":14710.703,"end":14727.099,"text":"他這個有時候在公務的行程或是活動的行程有時候立委候選人或是立委本身會上去參加那你也沒辦法去改變他的穿著沒辦法當場叫他把這個穿著來改變不過我們會 我們有一段文字"},{"start":14727.999,"end":14754.561,"text":"會提醒來大家注意就是說政務人員跟民選首長雖非公務人員行政中立法規範對象但是從事與選舉或補選相關行為應該於請假或下班時間並且不動用這個我們這個文字是不是看一下嗎?那給我們看他是立委 現任立委你剛剛不是說現任立委可以嗎?我們說是不實現的嘛大家看一下嘛不管哪個地方那個"},{"start":14755.983,"end":14784.364,"text":"議員也去 反省議會也去地方有關的民意代表會去每個地方都是這樣你們執政縣市也是一樣你把中間改掉這案子就保留改很多啦只是把所有事實都改掉 但是改的內容沒有不好 說真的"},{"start":14785.103,"end":14812.214,"text":"有啊 那個原詞要求行政院長陳建仁結身自愛 謹守行政 這個要保留啦這文字一點都不驚悚阿他已經非常自愛了 結智了 那就再前面加一句他已經非常結身自愛 要求再結身自愛你作文都不通嘛通現在文字喔 要有改來嘛"},{"start":14813.756,"end":14822.819,"text":"這個文字這樣修改可以嗎他就是留後面那句嘛 要求寫生字 前面這段是可以的還不錯要求 要求政務聯局明顯首長這有本意的意味嘛"},{"start":14829.428,"end":14838.776,"text":"如果沒有辦法行政公示就保留啦好不好好保留46案保留47案主決議沒有意見召喚通過48案主決議48案這個因為是針對政府院長那我們是不是建議這個能夠保留"},{"start":14856.274,"end":14885.421,"text":"政務院的事發案 一下 協議 要不要保留好啦 別再弄了啦沒有意見就保留喔那四十九案 主席四十九案裡面有講到各種國家對啦 那裡面有很多我們也覺得不容易修改 所以是不是也建議保留不是 有不是事實嗎 你要怎樣針對我們黨團提案的說哪一些不是事實 我們可以刪掉 比如說"},{"start":14887.783,"end":14911.392,"text":"彈價上漲小市店賣快篩這個不是事實嗎這個有點像中國時報社論不好啊怎麼中國時報社論這個政府全力扶植高端公司一廂通過審查這不是事實嗎報內線交易不是事實嗎小市店賣快篩不是事實嗎一人超市公司取得上億進口彈草財款這些都是事實啊為什麼要保留"},{"start":14912.952,"end":14933.399,"text":"為什麼保留 這都是國家級詐騙為什麼保留 你在掩護詐騙嗎我認為是這樣嘛 你們沒有共識他們要說明啊 到底立法院慎重提出案子 有哪裡是不對的我們可以改嘛如果對的就應該通過啊你們黨團沒有共識就應該保留啦你們要求國藝人 黨團協商不過我們請行政部門說明有什麼不對的什麼國藝人 等一下是國藝人"},{"start":14941.625,"end":14944.726,"text":"其實你看這寫了一大篇 真正最重要的是最後兩行"},{"start":14964.734,"end":14989.003,"text":"原此要求行政院跟所屬部會 要施政避免濫用國家隊 損及政府威信那意思就是說講了這麼多國家隊 成立了幾十個 四十個國家隊那是不是太多了啊就是你們把國家隊污名化啊這麼好的東西被你們污名化啊"},{"start":14990.613,"end":15013.825,"text":"好沒有共識我們就保留啦齁好49案沒有共識保留50案主決議我們有建議一些修正的文字有有在大家手上有有沒有修正最後一張最後一張50案"},{"start":15018.088,"end":15041.846,"text":"這個為什麼刪掉 行政院宣布投入14億是沒有投入是嗎是數字寫錯了還是寫太少或寫太多行政院去年7月宣布投入14億成立長大國家隊他投入14億元 這六個字刪掉的主要原因是寫錯了 太少還是太多還是你們當時沒說數字"},{"start":15045.714,"end":15072.535,"text":"原因是什麼 為什麼要刪掉這個民主黨要請教一下就是主要是 文字對照會覺得說好像 又講說投入14億但是成績 打詐成績完全不及格 這兩個連動不是啊 你們有沒有投入14億嘛 有沒有投入投入有 是有 為什麼要刪掉 有宣布投入14億但是他這個不是一年啦 是兩年不管嘛 去年 我們只寫的是去年7月宣布這個是事實嘛 在未來那這句為什麼要刪掉"},{"start":15073.933,"end":15077.015,"text":"打詐成績完全不合格 百姓覺得你的打詐成績合格嗎"},{"start":15087.361,"end":15103.35,"text":"我想也有一些成果啦你覺得可以打幾分合格是不是沒有啦 那你協商他要修改我們怎麼知道他修改的原因可以啊我們問說他修改14億是不是真的有投入時間他說有嘛有就不用管嘛"},{"start":15111.895,"end":15125.884,"text":"政府打仗成績完全不行他認為可以嘛我問他說大概幾分嘛那回答一下就好了啊他可以寫進來啊你不是問他我問你怎麼會知道他才是行政院啦行政院在打仗還是柯建民在打仗為什麼這樣保留"},{"start":15129.48,"end":15132.883,"text":"他要刪掉這段很奇怪啊 我們理性的提出來他為什麼要刪掉勒"},{"start":15145.165,"end":15150.169,"text":"為什麼每個人都要保留 居住正義這個 叫你們做居住正義有什麼要保留的咧你們又改了什麼 主決議為什麼要保留"},{"start":15174.068,"end":15180.896,"text":"有修改什麼文字有什麼需要修改的嗎因為裡面有蠻多不容易去修改 比如說大撒幣"},{"start":15191.363,"end":15193.845,"text":"忽略最關鍵的房東不讓房租領補貼這個是事實啊哪一段是不對的"},{"start":15213.888,"end":15215.19,"text":"五十一案保留五十二案"},{"start":15227.509,"end":15227.909,"text":"請國防部一年內做具體規劃"},{"start":15245.086,"end":15273.488,"text":"那這個事實上之前有沒有撤離過 有啊在阿扁總統的時候這個三金魚退就有撤離過啊所以你說這個到底有什麼樣的困難那本來現在的狀況是說你要去做這個中間建廠的規劃等等之類的那你可以你的這個轉型本來這個三金魚退的撤離本來就是可以"},{"start":15274.309,"end":15301.698,"text":"去先去做嘛那並不是說要等待什麼同向的處置才可以去處理啊那這個每年都有這一題啦我們先保留一下好不好沒有我的要求是說我的提案只是說叫他一年內去就這個三軍移退撤離中央紀念堂去規劃嘛那本來他就可以提出一個規劃保留啊好那國防部也不是在這裡啊"},{"start":15303.647,"end":15306.809,"text":"行政院便便部就到此告一段落結束接下來就到原民會"},{"start":15334.417,"end":15338.459,"text":"我們現在要進行園民會的...我們進行園民會 首先介紹園民會的列席所長園民會的主任委員 宜將伯洛"},{"start":15364.38,"end":15392.942,"text":"好那接下來就請大家看五十三案那五十三案改為主決議沒有意見就通過五十案改為主決議沒有意見通過那五十五案五十五案是怎麼樣五十五案你改主決議吧對不對好沒有意見通過好"},{"start":15395.222,"end":15407.865,"text":"那五十六案也改組結議,沒有意見通過那五十七案也改組結議好,五十七案也改組結議好,那沒有意見就通過五十八案改組結議"},{"start":15425.907,"end":15450.177,"text":"五十八案改組結議但沒有意見通過五十九案已經改組結議但沒有意見通過六十案組結議文字修正但沒有意見通過六十一案組結議文字修正沒有意見通過六十二案組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":15452.322,"end":15463.928,"text":"六十三案 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過六十四案 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過六十五案 主決議 沒意見通過"},{"start":15465.213,"end":15465.653,"text":"我介紹一下列席的首長"},{"start":15491.803,"end":15507.838,"text":"現在換客家委員會,那列席的首長是主任委員楊長正先生接下來就請大家看70案70案改組結議,沒有見通過71案改組結議,沒有見通過72案改組結議,沒有見通過73案改凍結100萬年,沒有見通過"},{"start":15518.367,"end":15531.612,"text":"74案 並委員會決議辦理沒有先通過75案 改組決議沒有先通過76案 改組決議沒有先通過77案 改組決議沒有先通過78案 改組決議沒有先通過79案 改組決議沒有先通過80案 改組決議沒有先通過81案 改組決議沒有先通過82案 改組決議沒有先通過"},{"start":15547.438,"end":15551.001,"text":"改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":15572.881,"end":15573.601,"text":"那接下來就換大陸委員會"},{"start":15600.878,"end":15605.819,"text":"中選會我先來介紹列席的所長中選會是他們自己拿他們那一本去"},{"start":15629.699,"end":15649.823,"text":"現在進行中選會那中選會列席的首長主任委員李敬勇先生現在就請大家看中選會九十案九十案溝通改為主介議文字有一點修正大家"},{"start":15655.168,"end":15655.848,"text":"沒有簽沒有簽"},{"start":15685.219,"end":15713.701,"text":"有溝通沒簽字啦沒有簽啦,溝通為國有沒有簽字沒有簽那就保留謝謝來,91案先謝謝昭緯昭緯已經同意撤簽撤簽,撤案啦撤案,對不起,撤案撤案嘛好,撤,謝謝撤案"},{"start":15715.202,"end":15723.655,"text":"好九十二案並委員會皆辦理好好 民意見通過九十三案"},{"start":15727.81,"end":15747.461,"text":"這個沒有併委員會 這個好像有溝通嗎有跟黨團溝通嗎93你就是像你溝通就可以了但這個我們想要先保留請委員支持我們會議順便報告我想這一案黨團是希望保留93案保留90案併委員結辦理沒有見通過"},{"start":15751.12,"end":15756.304,"text":"95案改組決議,沒有意見通過96案並委員會決議辦理,沒有意見通過97案改組決議,沒有意見通過98案改組決議,沒有意見通過99案這個"},{"start":15773.948,"end":15775.448,"text":"改為書面報告 那沒有見通過改書面報告 可以嗎"},{"start":15797.389,"end":15797.589,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":15811.738,"end":15815.019,"text":"稍安通過101案主決議就稍安通過"},{"start":15834.841,"end":15857,"text":"對不起 是改書面 改書面什麼改書面96案 96案就病委員會決一半禮阿對 病委員會決一半禮是沒有錯病委員會決一半禮就很好阿是怎麼樣好 謝謝有文字要修改是嗎"},{"start":15857.959,"end":15864.883,"text":"對 就改成書面了"},{"start":15888.761,"end":15906.368,"text":"我們現在換看大陸委員會首先介紹列席的首長主任委員秋泰山先生接下來請大家看102案"},{"start":15913.826,"end":15935.346,"text":"102案那個賴世保委員那個說這個案子要保留你們沒有過去溝通齁報告院長跟委員齁我們本來跟他定明天早上11點那因為這個臨時提早到這邊那我們剛剛有去跟他的主任報告但是他的主任好像還是希望能夠堅持他們是希望堅持來我們現在處理好了"},{"start":15937.228,"end":15937.688,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":15965.399,"end":15967.2,"text":"請我們保留的我們尊重一下提案"},{"start":15981.159,"end":15992.985,"text":"所有的案子黨編都在這裡處理不能說這個案子還是問他們那不然剛剛為什麼都不處理都給我們保留前面幾個案子都給我們保留沒有期間我們現在很處理啦醫生們如果說我們病委員會結議辦你這樣可不可以這不是我們黨團說的"},{"start":15998.968,"end":16003.991,"text":"為什麼你們突然不能保留了是怎樣 那兇兇不可以前面幾個都保留 我們也是現場 你也應該現場決定"},{"start":16027.182,"end":16027.622,"text":"委員會結論是多少"},{"start":16053.695,"end":16053.935,"text":"102案併文的接辦禮"},{"start":16081.631,"end":16086.173,"text":"103案 並委員會接辦 禮儀沒有見通過104案 並委員會接辦 禮儀沒有見通過105案 並委員會接辦 禮儀沒有見通過106案 台灣民眾黨說明文字我們已經有給民眾黨了啦"},{"start":16103.843,"end":16104.243,"text":"委員會是多少"},{"start":16131.631,"end":16132.993,"text":"這題先保留好不好這題東團就堅持"},{"start":16147.854,"end":16148.855,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16164.07,"end":16164.57,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16185.677,"end":16185.957,"text":"並委員結辦禮提書面報告"},{"start":16198.348,"end":16198.608,"text":"107 本席"},{"start":16222.839,"end":16235.672,"text":"一億五千多萬 其中主管的費用是六千五百萬這一次增加了四千五百萬里頭根據跟往年的預算比較人事及行政費用就增加了兩千萬從九千八百萬變成一億一千八百萬"},{"start":16243.103,"end":16246.825,"text":"今年增加的預算裡頭 兩岸文書驗證 聯合服務中心兩岸婚姻親子關懷 司法行政互助 只有增加35萬6千但是人事行政費增加2千萬"},{"start":16267.526,"end":16295.546,"text":"所以我想 因為我有請我當時有跟那個陸委會長說這個要請海紀委說明齁那這個 我也說過齁但是還沒有來說明前就給我扣紅帽子到媒體去給我扣帽子說為了什麼中國啊什麼就刪海紀委今年增加四千五百萬有兩千萬是人事及行政費用人事費用裡頭六千五百萬的主管的費用換句話說一個月五百萬是主管啊我看過他們主管的薪水他們一年還有一千萬的獎金啊"},{"start":16296.286,"end":16314.689,"text":"海基會做什麼事有一年有一千萬的獎金每個人薪水一個月都是十幾萬 二十幾萬海基會現在有什麼功能 功能很少嘛做最多的就是兩岸文書院證 今年增加預算只有35萬多所以我想請問這個因為我請海基會說明 海基會沒有來說明嘛今天我人都在這裡 他們也知道"},{"start":16315.717,"end":16326.351,"text":"所以我覺得這個應該照本席的提案通過了然後我也說了如果入委會宣布明年就開放那個入客到金門來旅遊我這個案子馬上撤掉"},{"start":16327.843,"end":16329.324,"text":"說明一下好不好大家都想知道啦"},{"start":16357.383,"end":16358.624,"text":"主題啊 為什麼增加兩千萬 告訴我一下"},{"start":16381.502,"end":16393.112,"text":"主席 您的提案我的提案 人事局行政費暴漲兩千萬公共臺灣要求臺灣人參加這個提案就是 海基會福利不夠嘛陳議員再做報告沒有啦 那個主委來你先不要講啦你先不要講是不是陳議員陳委員 其實喔"},{"start":16400.018,"end":16418.284,"text":"這個案子也發生出來了你寫了也不清楚啦你那一百空氣站你那減四千五百萬那個喔那是增加的喔不是歷來的今年增加四千五百萬我就跟你說你現在講的跟你的提案講的就是兩件事因為你們不看內部嘛完全就不相干嘛因為你們都沒有看內部的預算我們是仔細看預算啊你仔細看預算你要把你三點理由寫進去"},{"start":16422.145,"end":16427.469,"text":"你的暗友你是講說什麼中共臺辦要求臺商不得參加我說的是他們到金門這件事情沒有辦得很好當然嘛我意思是說 你就笑成這樣你就說什麼中共臺辦要求臺商不得參加海基會考察活動"},{"start":16439.838,"end":16442.239,"text":"你當然這樣寫會引發誤會嘛你們不查清楚就給他弄媒體不對不對沒有人這樣扣你紅帽是講說你為什麼不去譴責老公你看扣你紅帽扣得讓你這樣笑嘻嘻你多開心啊你把紅帽子往頭上戴啊"},{"start":16465.589,"end":16482.612,"text":"我先請問一下為什麼要增加人事 增加兩千萬啊陳委員 這個你昨天還正在媒體講話如果讀你這個案的話看起來會覺得說這個是中共要求臺商不得參加海基會活動那到底跟陸委會有什麼事啊"},{"start":16483.112,"end":16512.482,"text":"是陸委會補助海基會的因為他的費用是列在陸委會的法證處下面啦因為預算是這樣編的因為你這個案有的話人家閱讀你這個案的時候也會覺得說欸奇怪這是對案要求的那到底不是我們後面有寫嘛陸委會長年編列預算補助海基會服務台商而且我後來看了陳一正講補助的嘛我還看了一個你這個寫法剛好被人家說你是紅的剛好而已啊"},{"start":16513.643,"end":16531.657,"text":"這個我是不是紅的不重要啦我也不在意你們說我是什麼顏色但是重點啦重點就是請問一下為什麼要增加兩千萬我到現在還沒有聽到說明啊但是我有看到兩千萬你入圍海基位需要兩千萬的人海基位已經薪水都很高了捏"},{"start":16533.941,"end":16549.382,"text":"6500萬的主管喔 總共一多二人事喔他那講人事費2000萬 譬如說他的名﹖他的緣額﹖他的緣額增加了多少還是他加了薪水 還是怎麼樣阿怎麼會人事費突然"},{"start":16550.123,"end":16551.544,"text":"有講真話齁來 謝謝兩個字就好 不要講太多保留這樣兩個字就好"},{"start":16580.475,"end":16605.352,"text":"市長也剛剛花那麼多時間嘛那益貞很認真提了這個案請邱志偉你們講清楚言簡意乾你為什麼要增加對海基會的補助4千5百萬講清楚按你的講的理由充分益貞會同意啊對不對"},{"start":16608.575,"end":16617.297,"text":"第一 基本上陳議員認為2000萬都是用在所謂的人事費上事實上因為院長跟委員都知道因為我們公務人員有調薪還有考積的晉級所以這個也會增加勞健保跟退出金的支出"},{"start":16632.401,"end":16654.197,"text":"所以在人事費用的部分是增加643萬其他的是增加業務的增加那這個業務的增加包括深化台商還有台生還有陸配的聯繫跟交流那我們的海基會因為各位大家都知道那最近這幾年的整個兩岸的經貿情勢特別大陸的情勢在台商經營上確實會產生進退或者是轉這樣的一個問題"},{"start":16660.601,"end":16683.924,"text":"所以他有一個台商法律服務的團隊 那我們陸委會是台商張老師那他們有另外一個服務團隊 可以要到中國大陸去協助不管是稅務的 不管是業務的 不管是他經營的 公司治理的那他們有這個團隊 所以他們去的話 要增加人員的人事跟行政的費用"},{"start":16684.565,"end":16684.665,"text":"主席"},{"start":16704.185,"end":16705.346,"text":"《中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":16721.576,"end":16736.314,"text":"那這個每一個都是要海基會他們要協助家屬或者是有的家屬不要接那我那個實在坦白講接回來國內的這個地方政府也很痛苦因為有的要請他們幫忙協助那這個都是要聯繫的啦"},{"start":16737.715,"end":16764.669,"text":"所以就我所知啦當然比較細的項目還有哪些我沒有辦法帶他回來所以我請那個秘書長 邱秘書長去跟你做說明原因也在這裡但是大概就我所知道的至少這幾個項目所以他的人事費用只有在你剛剛提到兩千多裡面大概是這個643是他因為運營薪資 薪水的調整所衍生下來其他費用我大概可以跟各位做這樣一個補充說明"},{"start":16766.25,"end":16789.381,"text":"說一下齁 剛剛那個陸...沒有沒有沒有 因為他剛剛講有一些不...不正確 不完全齁 我講一下齁 當然 因為齁 事實上因為可能你們因為法政處長沒有跟你報告完全啦齁這個事實上他增加費用說寫在這個海基會的這個預算書的第28頁齁你剛剛說的這個海...法律業務的確有加錢齁4500萬元的法律業務有增加 增加了519000啦"},{"start":16791.422,"end":16812.57,"text":"兩岸溝通業務增加246萬這些都跟我說這一筆2000萬沒有關係人民緊急救助200萬 海商聯繫服務增加100萬 這都還是另外的喔這個我有做比較表 把去年跟今年的預算書的比較表做出來我說這2000萬是人事及行政 因為你們每一次的預算項目都是一樣的"},{"start":16814.05,"end":16841.998,"text":"他這兩千萬就是人事﹐辦理政府委託事項及人事及行政事務費事項他也寫了 寫在這裡 寫在第28頁裡頭他增加的這錢裡頭除了你說那個晉級以外還接著對外媒體的報道那個說明也是錯誤的除了那個晉級以外人事費增加那個晉級以外剩下的是一般行政增加了709萬3千請問一般行政的業務費為什麼要增加那麼多做什麼事情要增加700多萬"},{"start":16843.8,"end":16857.743,"text":"阿剛剛你說那個兩岸文書院只有增加三十萬六千啦齁整體情勢出版增加一百一十萬這些我都沒有講你還說兩岸多溝通那個你們只增加了十萬塊兩岸多溝通聯繫協調的費用去年 今年比去年只多十萬塊"},{"start":16860.168,"end":16880.876,"text":"所以你們增加有兩千萬是人事及行政費用你說那個正常的薪水調漲扣掉以後還有這個光你們的這裡面寫的就還有七百零九萬是一般行政費用到底做什麼事情要增加七百零九萬來啦這條你時代力量我講一下齁我講一下齁我們各黨團希望都有機會講因為當然就是說這個案"},{"start":16881.596,"end":16898.385,"text":"基本上是因為這個案有是因為說這個中共國台辦要求說臺商不能參加海基會的活動的考察嘛那有18位臺商沒辦法跟這個臺商協會的會長跟臺企聯常務副會長被告知不得參加所以他不敢來臺灣"},{"start":16899.52,"end":16916.22,"text":"那今天這個是因為中共的關係那這個陸委會他即便他的很多工作是在協助這個補助海基會在服務台上而且這個看起來這個是法政業務"},{"start":16921.426,"end":16935.663,"text":"台商在中國會面對很多法律上的問題所以需要去對它做支援給予我們的台商在中國的時候許多必要的協助我是看不出來是說因為"},{"start":16936.964,"end":16960.534,"text":"這一個案他被要求不得這個反台那陸委會也是沒有辦法啊這個要怎麼處理陸委會增加這個法律的協助有51萬我再說明一下這不是刪他的因為是刪他今年比去年增加的多了4500萬喔往年的預算還是存在喔今年比去年多增加了4500萬喔多給了4500萬我說那用到哪裡嘛"},{"start":16964.736,"end":16975.394,"text":"法律服務部分有增加50幾萬兩岸文書驗證做最多增加36萬你們多增加是人事及行政費用你說正常的薪水增加 這個我接受給你多幾百萬"},{"start":16979.204,"end":16982.967,"text":"多一千萬要用去哪裡你不知道 我知道"},{"start":16998.82,"end":17025.158,"text":"做台商的服務不是只有單純的法律服務稅務的服務包括公司治理的服務包括他未來全球佈局的服務那個都包括在內那不是只有法律啦所以我要講的就是說他那裡面就是你剛剛只是針對法律的部分是五十幾萬兩岸溝通協調聯繫交流有增加兩百四十六萬那是兩岸溝通協調但是我剛剛講的是台商的服務這跟那個人事我沒有關係喔"},{"start":17026.039,"end":17038.067,"text":"所以它裡面是包括人事費用就剛剛講643其他的其他是行政的費用啊多了行政費用不是只有法務啊多了幾千萬的行政費用這樣去打啦 保留啦"},{"start":17041.717,"end":17044.439,"text":"主委喔可不可以請教一下我們去年陸委會補助給海基會的費用總共是多少"},{"start":17060.854,"end":17089.89,"text":"一億五那今年加一億四千一億四千八就將近一億五嘛那所以照陳玉珍委員的講法就是現在等於現在變成一億九千四等於是多加了四千五百萬對不對好沒有關係那可不可以請教主委主要的問題是就是他增加了加了四千五百萬等於幾乎加了三分之一喔對不對所以那意思就是說明年海基會的功能"},{"start":17090.471,"end":17093.926,"text":"要比現在 要增加三分之一"},{"start":17095.518,"end":17121.864,"text":"譬如說他原本有一定會增加但是增加到多少是包括他們自己估算的因為這是很少見對一個機關的預算你的補助會一次增加三分之一這是非常驚人的所以可不可以請你說明一下你期許他明年比他現在要能夠多做什麼值得你多給他三分之一的預算"},{"start":17122.424,"end":17139.498,"text":"這是很驚人的 譬如我們 立法院不管多少錢我立委薪水一次多二三分之一 喔 怕死人啦所以這個部分當然我倒是建議 陸委會應該講清楚說你是基於什麼樣的判斷 然後你要一次加三分之一的預算補助給海基會 這個應該要講"},{"start":17141.059,"end":17143.1,"text":"主委講完沒有公示我們就保留請主委繼續"},{"start":17166.669,"end":17183.077,"text":"第二部分當然就是業務上的增加那是他們自己也有做了他們初步的這樣的一個大概幾個項目的提高那我們法政處就認為說他這個確實是值得鼓勵的所以我們就可以這樣的一個經費上的補助"},{"start":17184.978,"end":17202.465,"text":"所以基本上是他們自己 估算過去 已經有做 可以再增加的 譬如剛剛我所提到的 現在台商遇到的問題 可能比以前更多 我想這個大家都可以理解 因為整個全球化 跟這個供應鏈的生產的問題所以啊 這條保留就好了啦 這條不是這個原因啦 這條幫你凍結 這條台灣不是這個原因啦"},{"start":17211.409,"end":17211.429,"text":"109 改組結議"},{"start":17235.144,"end":17239.648,"text":"111案並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過111案改組決議沒有見通過112案這個賴委員有意見"},{"start":17249.138,"end":17278.677,"text":"118"},{"start":17280.026,"end":17281.647,"text":"我們休息五分鐘五分鐘後我們處理不當單產處理委員會的這個預算"},{"start":17310.663,"end":17311.184,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17658.456,"end":17678.624,"text":"來 我們繼續開會接下來我們討論不當單場處理委員會的預算首先介紹歷史的首長不當單場處理委員會主任委員林峰正先生接下來請大家看119案119案 來"},{"start":17691.547,"end":17691.567,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":17717.116,"end":17717.816,"text":"是保留嗎保留啦保留"},{"start":17748.827,"end":17763.323,"text":"一百二十一案就兵通山科目一百二十案這種還要一二二這個是我的案子喔不是啊這種為什麼要派國派員出國考察咧國家錢這樣亂用喔"},{"start":17767.658,"end":17768.019,"text":"一二二"},{"start":17796.004,"end":17796.684,"text":"一二二保留一二三組結議"},{"start":17825.646,"end":17839.37,"text":"有沒有意見 主席有沒有意見有意見那就保留齁郭總召建議保留 那我們就保留喔接下來我們換內政部主管內政部主管"},{"start":17862.493,"end":17880.601,"text":"介紹列席所長介紹內政部部長林佑昌先生接下來請大家看124案增列300萬年有沒有意見改增列100委員同意"},{"start":17891.854,"end":17911.833,"text":"修改成為增列一百萬元沒有意見通過一二五案通案那就併通案喔一二五併通案一二六"},{"start":17915.629,"end":17927.334,"text":"求選制來組決議文字修正黨團商已經蓋了並委員會決議凍結民政業務一百萬好126並委員會決議凍結一百萬好哇你這個你這個委員會有凍結嗎有有民政業務有凍一百萬"},{"start":17946.035,"end":17953.542,"text":"民政業務有動議嗎一般是他們自己提的民政業務啦改動民政業務這是內政部提的啦好126案並一般行政業務動結100萬並不是民政"},{"start":17970.976,"end":17992.705,"text":"他有一個叫做民政業務他民政業務有那個跟那個黨團時代黨團已經改章了啦是民政業務有凍結一百萬並委員會決議凍結民政業務一百萬元那提出報告啦好有他自己寫很清楚啦好"},{"start":17995.407,"end":17995.627,"text":"改組決議三個月"},{"start":18026.07,"end":18040.224,"text":"文字修改為三個月,對不對?沒有意見就主決議,文字修正通過128案,並委員會決議辦理,有沒有意見?沒有意見通過129案,我們部裡面建議改組決議"},{"start":18048.865,"end":18049.545,"text":"一大本都沒有跟委員溝通"},{"start":18073.072,"end":18097.269,"text":"我們可能再臨時這樣開啦齁因為本來沒有嘛齁是不是還是要等他們溝通完再來繼續好像那個你們那個提案可能還沒有時間溝通啦齁沒有啊 因為可能我們今天才決定可能今天因為才決定要臨時晚上開他們沒有時間溝通嘛那是不是就讓他們去溝通完再來繼續我們現在就決定好不好"},{"start":18099.332,"end":18099.693,"text":"上位溝通了這麼多喔"},{"start":18109.229,"end":18122.621,"text":"就請委員總召裁決因為委員會已經凍結一百萬年我們就是併委員會結議辦理好不好好啦好啦併委員會結議辦理再來130案改組結議沒有建議就通過好好131案也是併委員會結議辦理好不好好沒有建議就這樣"},{"start":18137.441,"end":18157.457,"text":"那132也併委員結辦理如何131是改組決議吧131改組決議132就因為沒有看到 你們有沒有印出來那個是剛剛休息的時間才蓋到的"},{"start":18161.328,"end":18180.293,"text":"一百三十二案主決議改為主決議那沒有意見就照樣通過一三三案三個月不是一個月啦一三三案已經跟黨團報告過同意改為主決議沒有同意吧一三三有同意沒有同意喔所以這邊是希望還是可以做一些凍結然後交一個報告吧"},{"start":18186.814,"end":18214.747,"text":"應該是這樣吧,就我這邊收到的訊息是這樣對阿,他就是尚未完成溝通對阿,還沒有捏有溝通但溝通未果阿你不可以說我同意改成主決議喔你這樣說,我會打他咧中華委員,我們就這個就你們的133我們就併委員會啦,好不好不是阿,併委員會是怎麼樣因為他剛剛的講法跟黨團的那個...委員會已經動一百了嘛委員會已經動一百了按照我們努力的結果好不好"},{"start":18216.607,"end":18224.612,"text":"跟徐總統報告過嗎?報告過,這還不是這樣沒有,他原則是同意他原則同意,真的我沒有看到籤沒有啦,他在傳記,你給他翻不是跟傳記沒有關係啦他只是在溝通就這樣"},{"start":18237.686,"end":18257.435,"text":"這樣保留啦好不好這樣感覺我們有差異那個預算科目是在部裡面專規室那這個建議的內容是我們警政署部裡面跟警政署同仁都有跟主任當面報告過他們也同意改為組決議他是不是就跟那個委員會嗎好 委員會好好 並委員結一半禮"},{"start":18264.864,"end":18268.409,"text":"133案並委員會接辦理134案是不是也並委員會接辦理這個實在黨團已經蓋到了黨團已經蓋章了134134怎麼樣"},{"start":18280.575,"end":18283.617,"text":"改組決議就了?已經蓋章了這133改組決議嗎?這次已經蓋章了改組決議啊?134已經拿到蓋章了對啦 你們有就是說"},{"start":18305.236,"end":18312.044,"text":"如果有同意要有簽名而且應該趕快去印現在你們手頭上趕快印每一個黨團都要花"},{"start":18314.529,"end":18326.957,"text":"要給院長啊我根本都不知道什麼 都聽你們講 查一查這樣有順效嗎要給院長 說得順效有 有在現場已經被人家揭穿了 大家都有了 各種各樣 都揭穿了"},{"start":18339.929,"end":18345.233,"text":"上位溝通一本是你們的還是他們的沒有沒有這是內政部的"},{"start":18367.917,"end":18368.278,"text":"我們必須要"},{"start":18393.459,"end":18396.167,"text":"講一個講到尾我們今天能覺得就決一決"},{"start":18402.236,"end":18408.597,"text":"第二點就是說我們內政委會今天在開會的時候 大家都有聽到 我有宣誓就是一個月兩個月都改為三個月"},{"start":18431.301,"end":18432.382,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":18454.9,"end":18460.624,"text":"現在開始進行135案文字修正並文會結議辦理沒有見通過136案改組結議沒有見通過137案文字修正並文會結議辦理沒有見通過138改組結議沒有見通過139"},{"start":18482.378,"end":18486.84,"text":"139 實例的139 改組決議 文字修正139 案 改為組決議可能要麻煩人家 盡量齁 盡量支持"},{"start":18511.471,"end":18528.624,"text":"好那有有有有啦齁好139案改為主決議沒有見通過140案文字修正並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過好141案要國動委員提案的這個案有沒有怎麼樣"},{"start":18537.244,"end":18561.645,"text":"沒有沒有他也沒有提喔沒有沒有完全沒有沒有意見阿應該是沒意見嘛這個案子應該內政部也沒意見嘛照要委員的吧因為他們也沒修任何東西阿有跟委員報告過了委員同意修測案那委員還沒有簽名他同意測案是嗎好141案是吧測案分隊他同意阿"},{"start":18563.73,"end":18574.849,"text":"141案 測案142案 文字修正並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過143案廖國棟委員的沒有見名喔"},{"start":18575.39,"end":18575.41,"text":"144案"},{"start":18600.302,"end":18604.227,"text":"議員長,144案這個是護證資料外洩的那一直到今年的10月這個檢方也認證說這個在2022年10月去年這個護證資料外洩是我國的護證資料"},{"start":18619.284,"end":18639.912,"text":"所以就這部分內政部到現在也沒有一個行政調查報告那針對到底是說這個外洩影響的這個層面這麼廣那到底是說原因何在到底是什麼原因導致這個附證資料外洩而且現在檢察官檢方這邊也認證說這是我國附證資料了"},{"start":18644.281,"end":18661.84,"text":"那究竟這個副政的業務資安管理是出了什麼問題應該要怎麼改善啊那應該要有一個這個調查報告來說明並且是說徹底的去檢討嘛那你現在要把我改的這個我不會同意啊等於是說"},{"start":18664.182,"end":18691.26,"text":"這個不管是說凍結也好 或者是說這個公開調報告 目的何在 目的當然就是說希望能夠去徹底的去檢討並且去精進這個部分嘛 否則的話我們的詐騙的案件這麼的嚴重 那這個各機關所這個執掌的包括像護證 或者是說健保資料 勞保資料 這這麼嚴重的事情那你沒有妥善的去做這個防範或去處理的話 那這個對"},{"start":18693.302,"end":18702.767,"text":"這個國人的影響,非常深遠嘛好,那這一個案...沒有,他要改組決議,我不會同意阿因為他其實他在後面,並就互證業務資安管理問題提出檢討和改善措施"},{"start":18713.394,"end":18728.183,"text":"連這個都要給對阿給人家刪掉而且我只是要求因為這已經檢方都已經認為認證了這個資料是真正從是我們互證裡面的資料了所以檢討改進真的是應該吧不能因為"},{"start":18729.604,"end":18749.701,"text":"我這樣講很直白有錯要認錯知錯能改善莫大焉而不是不讓人家去讓你檢討跟改善沒有反對檢討改進所以他這個檢討跟改善措施也給人家槓桿不讓人家寫你要看他這個尚未完成溝通版他改的這個內容"},{"start":18752.096,"end":18767.922,"text":"第一個就是說你本來從去年這已經是一年了一年多的時間了然後檢察官都已經去認證說這個是我國的戶政資料了到現在一年多了你還沒有辦法調查出原因這也太離譜了"},{"start":18769.266,"end":18792.512,"text":"那另外一個之前的說法是說因為檢察官在調查所以你沒辦法行政調查那更是鬼扯那內政部來跟我說明的時候我就跟他講說我的櫃子上面一大堆的各部門的國防部然後這個警政署也有到處都是行政調查報告哪有說司法在調查的時候機關不能夠調查這個道理這是並行不備的嘛"},{"start":18795.369,"end":18797.83,"text":"有關新式身分證暫緩期間的預算的事情"},{"start":18823.703,"end":18824.183,"text":"146案並通商客戶處理147案"},{"start":18840.302,"end":18865.93,"text":"那是不是併委員會結議辦理沒有沒有沒有這一題已經部長也知道我們已經溝通了一年了就是你們這個內政部撤駐的事情我覺得好不容易走到就是上次你也答應開這個會議召集現在有個共識就是不是用年公享是提高工作費的部分這很確定但是因為現在我不知道後續開完會之後的實際執行的狀況"},{"start":18867.631,"end":18867.771,"text":"主席"},{"start":18893.34,"end":18893.64,"text":"文字會修正"},{"start":18916.319,"end":18941.792,"text":"147案改組決議,文字做修正,沒有意見通過148案併通商科目辦理149案併通商科目辦理150案改組決議,沒有意見通過151併通商科目辦理152凍結100萬年,沒有意見通過,文字修正有文字修正"},{"start":18946.314,"end":18971.883,"text":"152改凍結100萬元文字修正沒有意見通過153改組結議沒有意見通過文字修正有文字修正153改組結議文字修正沒有意見通過154改組結議文字修正文字修正沒有意見就修正通過155改凍結20萬元沒有意見通過文字修正有文字修正我們叫文字修正"},{"start":18973.783,"end":18973.944,"text":"主席"},{"start":18976.024,"end":19004.669,"text":"有有有155改有有有講好155已經好OK凍結那有文字修正齁有好那就通過156案凍結100萬元156改組決議文字修正那個改組決議好那文字修正改組決議沒有先通過157案病人接辦理沒有先通過158案改組決議沒有先通過"},{"start":19006.995,"end":19028.77,"text":"159案改組決議改組決議黨團蓋章了蓋章了齁那沒有人先通過有文字修正嗎沒有喔改組決議有文字修正有文字修正沒有人先通過160改組決議文字修正文字修正那沒有人先修正通過161改組決議沒有人先通過162"},{"start":19038.739,"end":19046.801,"text":"剪列五百萬改主席好了好不好委員說現場處理啦就改主席啦怎麼樣"},{"start":19055.885,"end":19056.506,"text":"改組協議162案改組協議163並通三辦理164改組協議"},{"start":19073.499,"end":19091.829,"text":"164有文字修正齁改組決議文字修正通過165改組決議文字修正有沒有文字修正165有今天要註明啦不然我這麼看不知道你有沒有文字修正所以這個你要註明沒有註明我這邊就沒有辦法"},{"start":19093.637,"end":19094.978,"text":"166案改組結議166案改組結議167案有沒有改組結議"},{"start":19119.232,"end":19119.913,"text":"改刪減業務﹑議政業務﹑科目執行調整"},{"start":19139.571,"end":19166.606,"text":"一六七案改檢類二十五萬科目自行調整好一六八並通商科目辦理一六九並通商科目辦理一七零檢類十萬改三檢醫證業務十萬科目自行調整好一七零"},{"start":19167.881,"end":19172.582,"text":"改檢列10萬年科併資料調查沒有意見通過170-1這個是設備級投資的通山項目資訊軟硬體設備級投資通山項目通案通案啦通案對它是那個資訊軟硬體設備設備級投資好"},{"start":19195.836,"end":19199.117,"text":"兵通山科目辦理好再來是171案改組決議沒有人先通過文字修正嗎有嗎文字修正修正通過172案勒"},{"start":19224.923,"end":19225.924,"text":"同意動200然後文字修正"},{"start":19243.134,"end":19261.113,"text":"同意動200好172同意動200萬年文字組修正那沒人先通過173案173跟剛剛那個附贈資料外洩一樣就先保留保留173保留沒有人先通過174"},{"start":19264.697,"end":19269.879,"text":"174動100萬整目動100萬174案保留整目動100萬整目動100萬你沒簽名提書面報告也沒跟委員溝通有 蓋章好 174動100萬"},{"start":19295.638,"end":19296.218,"text":"我們這個都有錄影喔"},{"start":19325.625,"end":19325.725,"text":"174改組結議177改組結議"},{"start":19359.849,"end":19370.996,"text":"178 建議改動整目一百萬 文字修正178 凍結一百萬年 文字做修正 沒意見通過"},{"start":19377.841,"end":19384.425,"text":"179去變178辦理可以嗎179喔 資訊軟硬體設備這是通案喔178是通案還沒通過欸178 179都是變通案啦179通案178呢不是嗎178剛才就是"},{"start":19401.793,"end":19405.176,"text":"181改組結議沒有先通過181組結議沒有先通過181組結議沒有先通過182組結議沒有先通過"},{"start":19431.455,"end":19439.923,"text":"好 照案通過182組結議 照案通過183組結議 遵照辦理好 照案通過184組結議 文字修正好 184組結議 文字修正 沒有意見修正通過來 185組結議 遵照辦理好 185組結議 照案通過"},{"start":19457.29,"end":19462.474,"text":"186 文字修正 主決議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過187 主決議 專照辦理 188 主決議 文字修正 主決議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":19485.276,"end":19491.378,"text":"文字修正文字修正沒有意見修正通過建議文字修正"},{"start":19509.376,"end":19536.332,"text":"192 主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過193 遵照辦理193 主決議照案通過194 遵照辦理194 照案通過195 建議修正文字195 主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過196 建議文字修正196 主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過"},{"start":19539.02,"end":19544.062,"text":"197 遵照辦理198 有跟賴委員溝通 本來是要增列900 後來溝通過同意增列400"},{"start":19557.048,"end":19561.711,"text":"徵列400萬徵列400萬198修改為徵列400萬199因為這兩個案是通案199和200都是通案對不對他是兩個通案"},{"start":19582.694,"end":19610.74,"text":"有跟這個邱委員這邊的溝通他是說現場處理就是他也希望他本來是希望他能來現場表達意見對啦但是他們還是就黨團這邊是希望還是要有一個那個動結數之後精進補助的相關計畫審查核定之後有順便報告再解凍啦看這個國土署這邊願不願意這樣子阿如果不行的話我們就先保留好不好我是建議"},{"start":19613.416,"end":19614.696,"text":"主決議不要說一個主決議改你們的文章主決議比較快"},{"start":19643.302,"end":19646.743,"text":"暫時保留 暫時保留裡面溝通一下等一下晚一點可以回頭來"},{"start":19669.514,"end":19669.994,"text":"1999 200 一樣的啊這兩案一樣的啊"},{"start":19696.596,"end":19697.437,"text":"好 沒有一線的通過"},{"start":19714.946,"end":19723.133,"text":"202改動決議1%沒有接通過其實這些內容都有去溝通過是不是建議併內委會的決議來處理就好沒有沒有 這個就有來溝通嘛但是沒有這個結果就1%蠻多的 2億的這個叫我們委員會這樣就好了"},{"start":19737.766,"end":19743.69,"text":"這個要求說要有一個書面報告嘛那他也只是要求說我們三個月交書報啦就並內委會決議統一凍結這個但是你有去溝通但是委員沒有答應啊他還是說本來都說要現場"},{"start":19765.333,"end":19766.434,"text":"202跟203 凍結2億他有同意改組決議阿他都要199去按阿"},{"start":19795.134,"end":19799.515,"text":"該組決議可以我們就回到剛才有沒有暗示保留那個199案現在陳委員講說改為組決議沒有問題好來文字修正沒有意見就通過好來"},{"start":19817.062,"end":19817.082,"text":"204到203203凍結2億"},{"start":19830.582,"end":19833.484,"text":"203剛就是已經同意改組決議204改凍結1%204也是有同樣的一個案子那202跟204都先保留205改凍結100萬年"},{"start":19859.775,"end":19861.576,"text":"206 要不要被委員接一半禮"},{"start":19888.926,"end":19889.206,"text":"207 文字修正"},{"start":19915.151,"end":19919.572,"text":"同意凍結?我已經有簽字了207已經處理好了207改為什麼?207它上面300萬同意凍結是吧?對它放在溝通本裡面後面"},{"start":19945.732,"end":19966.103,"text":"你們溝通的結論每條都同意嗎沒有啦 有的也不同意啦修正啦修正啦因為我們的比較早提出啦他都有溝通本那大部分有溝通好對對對好這樣好"},{"start":19975.026,"end":19977.108,"text":"那你已經跟他講好了,我這樣怎麼處理"},{"start":19992.97,"end":20017.205,"text":"因為他已經有簽名了嘛所以他才他才那個啊我看我看這樣我看你有照本來就好了啦你就已經跟他說好了講好了就好了啊那因為我看你很多也都是延誼或是怎麼樣嘛我看這樣啦齁這個因為第三幕嘛動輒這麼多齁我看不如再"},{"start":20018.244,"end":20024.487,"text":"這第三幕國土管理業務這邊齁 能夠凍結兩百萬年 把它改為五百萬年阿其他都 都併 併這個"},{"start":20029.046,"end":20051.757,"text":"沒有啦 因為你當時沒有跟他講啊只有2002跟204齁 你暫時保留啦阿其他的凍結都變 這個委員會我們要改吧因為這個他已經有簽名了 而且他們都已經先溝通好了啦所以 這個是不是說 如果他要再改的話那可能就是先保留 然後他們再談啊"},{"start":20055.393,"end":20068.618,"text":"那因為看起來這個這個數字也不多然後你很多都要求改成請他來你同意就同意啦好來208也是一樣凍結300喔對208也是209"},{"start":20075.803,"end":20076.424,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20094.341,"end":20115.212,"text":"212 文字修正 病毒人員接一半 禮沒有見通過啦這個 那個 二零 院長 不好意思 207 那個齁 欸 欸 你這個 是在說什麼啊 你那個公告買了 你阿表都劃掉 你們是像比如說 207 你講請國土署禁訴 研議 買阿表你那個 阿不 你使得動之 你也毀掉啊你連 那個公開上網後 使得動之 你也把它劃掉了捏"},{"start":20126.161,"end":20128.043,"text":"是阿,那你要怎麼解除?那不對啦207、208、207,你看210也一樣阿你怎麼會把使得動之全部都劃掉勒?"},{"start":20147.49,"end":20170.142,"text":"那根委員那邊直接講好不好好啦那你就再溝通你再溝通一下決議的方式吧對不對不知道你怎麼弄把那個解除條件劃掉阿對那是主決議的方式吧是不是他是要改主決議還是凍結沒有啦他還是在凍結阿他右上角有寫阿他右上角都有寫凍結"},{"start":20173.479,"end":20177.623,"text":"創組決議就好了吧創組決議就好了啦 大家沒意見啦阿這你還要跟他溝通啊因為你已經跟人家講好了"},{"start":20186.075,"end":20188.378,"text":"因為你跟委員談的是凍結案嘛一開始都談的是改組決議"},{"start":20204.502,"end":20217.647,"text":"那本來送到那邊 修正版本都是寫改組決議 但是他最後送回來還是所以你有跟人家談好嗎他後來又寫金了邱先生你這個大咖的 你這個民進黨數字都有寫在這裡的啊你當然有跟人家說好事啊"},{"start":20224.87,"end":20244.899,"text":"那你這一本叫做已溝通本欸你這一本叫已溝通本那你現在要變成尚未完成溝通本沒有沒有沒有那邱顯智你比任何人都更清醒啦這種寫法後面那個死樓洞字畫掉那個都是主角的寫法啦所以沒有啦"},{"start":20245.419,"end":20264.965,"text":"所以這個部分的話 如果說他要這個條件還是要這個送內政委員會時的動資 這我也同意啊所以不要改成組決議嘛那你可以說 那這個後面這個內政委員會同意後時的動資加進去 這樣也可以啊"},{"start":20266.26,"end":20268.001,"text":"跟主席報告應該是來來回回兩次"},{"start":20287.574,"end":20288.115,"text":"總預算多少?200多億是吧?"},{"start":20309.663,"end":20311.344,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":20335.77,"end":20341.299,"text":"按照文字修正後可以解凍這樣就好了這樣實在定這樣可以嗎 對不對"},{"start":20344.699,"end":20346.641,"text":"現在我們跟歐一山 歐一山文字修正 並不能接半年"},{"start":20370.341,"end":20375.506,"text":"沒有意見通過214凍結兩百萬沒有意見通過215凍結三千萬有沒有意見215是不是病人接一半禮215病人接一半禮沒有意見通過"},{"start":20393.442,"end":20421.361,"text":"二一六 改組結一 沒有意見通過二一七 改組結一 沒有意見通過二一八 改組結一 沒有意見通過二一九 改組結一 沒有意見通過二二零 改組結一 沒有意見通過二二一 改組結一 沒有意見通過二二二 凍結一百萬年 文字修正 沒有意見通過二二三 凍結五百萬年 沒有意見通過有意見嗎沒有意見喔"},{"start":20421.96,"end":20446.796,"text":"通過文字修正他會文字修正文字修正23我看一下23OK好沒有問題204併委會結議辦理沒有見通過205文字修正併委會結議辦理沒有見通過206通商科目併通商科目那"},{"start":20448.066,"end":20453.531,"text":"二二七 凍結五十萬年二二七 測案二二八 凍結三百萬年"},{"start":20469.173,"end":20490.509,"text":"228民眾黨委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會"},{"start":20499.468,"end":20501.53,"text":"修正文字修正通過"},{"start":20529.185,"end":20532.627,"text":"233 文書修正改凍結300萬年沒有見通過234 病理委員會結議辦理沒有見通過235 通商科目236"},{"start":20542.714,"end":20555.864,"text":"文書修正必領結辦理沒有意見通過237組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過238組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過239組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過240組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過241組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過242組結議沒有意見召喚通過23組結議沒有意見召喚通過"},{"start":20571.207,"end":20579.51,"text":"243有修正文字243有修正文字243有修正文字243主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過244主決議 沒意見就招待通過245主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":20601.223,"end":20604.046,"text":"246 組結議 文書修正 民運建築 施政通過247 組結議 民運建築 照案通過"},{"start":20625.529,"end":20627.11,"text":"到警政署了28我們就看大家"},{"start":20649.942,"end":20659.992,"text":"簡歷簡歷已經改組協議的文字修正好來248有改組協議是吧好 28改組協議那有做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過249改組協議"},{"start":20663.24,"end":20663.46,"text":"民眾申訴案"},{"start":20683.77,"end":20709.992,"text":"所以在這個違規取締跟在審核科技執法案件的部分其實民眾的反應是真的蠻多的所以我們才會提出這樣的一個案子所以他們有時候常常也要去跑這個行政訴訟相關我覺得是蠻擾民所以我們是希望當然在那個有一套更公開透明的一個獎懲機制這樣子對 所以這個部分應該剛剛署長也要做一些說明 對不對"},{"start":20711.372,"end":20711.532,"text":"主席"},{"start":20731.569,"end":20734.551,"text":"改組決議文字修正改組決議文字修正"},{"start":20753.786,"end":20776.241,"text":"我們看一下再回來那個 再保留 先保留啦好來 二五零就看一下嘛 那是二四九 二五零是我們的我們的就是 二九是他們的 你現在已經到二五零了 違規的部分嘛二五零就是已是組結議嘛 修正通過 我們就修正通過二五一改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":20782.205,"end":20788.708,"text":"改組接文字修正通過好那251就是有文字修正的好那就文字修正"},{"start":20792.194,"end":20799.857,"text":"主協議文字修正通過252改主協議文字修正253改主協議文字修正254測案"},{"start":20815.305,"end":20817.111,"text":"報告報告報告報告報告"},{"start":20823.598,"end":20825.759,"text":"二五五二五五二五五"},{"start":20845.951,"end":20871.403,"text":"院長256他要改主決意我不同意啦 署長因為你這個爆閃燈的這個問題啦那其實你我在質詢的時候你也答得非常好他並不是耗字嘛所以他基本上他的狀況現在是處在一個依法無據的這個狀況那這個對我們基層的警察同仁也非常不公平啦因為警察法的第一課就是要依法行政嘛"},{"start":20871.883,"end":20890.18,"text":"那現在地方上 有四個 全台灣竟然有四個警察局他是沒有裝設爆散針的那也有許多的警察局已經不再採購了所以變成是說一個國家 台灣竟然各地的警察局有這麼多不一樣的做法"},{"start":20890.72,"end":20915.88,"text":"而且他是完全依法無據的情況之下所以在這全台灣6751處這個紅藍爆閃燈那他基本上並不是交通部法定的號誌嘛那連包括署長你還有交通部長王國才部長也都對這個詞非常保留的態度啊所以我是覺得說你要去研議有一個更合理的替代的措施嘛"},{"start":20916.901,"end":20920.784,"text":"他本來的用意是說 偷心 模仿警車散 民眾警示"},{"start":20926.631,"end":20951.029,"text":"久來後大家就知道那個不是警車那個不是警用的這些裝置所以就這部分的話真的我是覺得第一就是依依法無懼萬一他會造成比如說用戶人的視覺戰略或是短暫失明等危險反而如果真的發生危險的時候那警察局不是要去賠這個錢對不對"},{"start":20953.03,"end":20970.376,"text":"所以應該是交通還是要有專業的來你不是說警政署然後礙於這種地方的民代的壓力然後就去裝設這樣的一個部分那人家交通部也都持一個反對的態度"},{"start":20971.983,"end":20998.192,"text":"所以我是覺得應該要去徹底的檢討我這個案我基本上我只是說希望把你這個交通安全維護跟交通秩序規劃預算案凍結5%那你在兩個月內你就各直轄縣市各直轄市跟這個非六都的縣市的警局去盤點那到底這個設置有什麼合理性跟必要性當然就是要會同交通機關"},{"start":20999.893,"end":21021.606,"text":"譬如說我去辦會堪 會同新竹市交通處 人家交通處就講說我都沒整半天喔那當場新竹市警局是不是臉都綠了這個是對我們基層的遠景也是非常不公平的所以希望就是說去做盤點 然後研議更合理的替代措施 然後提出一個書面報告這樣"},{"start":21023.143,"end":21052.53,"text":"那當然就是說你應該是在一個目前這6000多處我基本上真的我真的如果站在你的角度的話我會想說這如果萬一發生事情的話那不是警局要去負這個國家培養責任所以當然就是沒有法律的依據行政就是這樣沒有法律的依據基本上這個行政它的正當性基礎是會受到動搖的嘛是不是我們建議是不是個並委員會的決議那我們提書面報告好不好"},{"start":21055.083,"end":21079.832,"text":"好啦 署長你既然都這樣講了就是併委員會決議啦 併動但是我基本上還是語重心長啦我覺得交通還是一個這個部長做過地方的首長連兩任得到這麼好的成績大家也都知道因為你交通基本上還是要由這個交通的主管機關來處理啊那這樣對我們警力的使用它有更"},{"start":21080.992,"end":21103.779,"text":"應該去用的除包安糧等等還有很多需要他去做的地方嗎256案就病委員決議辦理你說剛才是要提書面嗎叫病棟提書面報告病棟提書面報告就這樣通過那我回頭也是時代力量黨團的247剛才是247"},{"start":21110.249,"end":21111.69,"text":"主決議文字修正"},{"start":21129.276,"end":21130.457,"text":"主決議 文字修正通過257 改組決議 258 凍結50萬年"},{"start":21150.489,"end":21156.452,"text":"251改組決議,文字修正258改組決議,文字修正259改組決議,文字修正260改組決議"},{"start":21179.929,"end":21180.389,"text":"261 並委員會262 改組決議261 不是改組決議"},{"start":21204.921,"end":21208.162,"text":"院長不好意思我確認一下259有改那個組決議"},{"start":21224.692,"end":21252.364,"text":"2559改組結議 文字修正因為 署長我還是要提醒一下啦這個我之前有跟你質詢過那個彰化的學生完全都台灣人結果你警員就誤以為說他是什麼逃逸外勞把人家打得半死這個是非常離譜的而且即便是外勞我即便是移工也不能夠做這樣的對待嘛"},{"start":21252.904,"end":21253.184,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":21277.267,"end":21284.371,"text":"是是是有道理啦書長首先自講那個有道理啦教育訓練好來我們就接下來就263測案測案已經測案了測案264測案測案該組決議吧264咧測案齁"},{"start":21308.176,"end":21325.042,"text":"因為我們這邊沒有資料喔265我們同意同意剪列二十萬好 凍結凍結改組決議吧 是不是26幾啊265265不是改組決議嗎265這邊是寫剪列喔是寫改列 是不是改組決議啦改組決議好 改組決議喔你們要主動講啦 好不好改組決議"},{"start":21335.88,"end":21336.421,"text":"主席二六六徹案"},{"start":21360.669,"end":21364.892,"text":"268 測案269 通山科目270 也是病通山嗎病通山"},{"start":21391.39,"end":21399.056,"text":"改組結議 文字修正改組結議 文字修正 沒意見通過改組結議 文字修正 沒意見通過改組結議 文字修正 沒意見通過"},{"start":21421.141,"end":21431.066,"text":"275 通山 併通山276 併通山277 改組決議 文字修正 改組決議 文字修正 沒有意見就通過278 組決議 遵照辦理 照案通過"},{"start":21449.822,"end":21470.186,"text":"279 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過280 主決議 沒意見就召喚通過281 主決議 沒意見就召喚通過282 主決議 文字修正 隨時修正通過283 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":21483.579,"end":21496.867,"text":"284遵照辦理好 召喚通過285文字修正主決議文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過286遵照辦理主決議召喚通過286是遵照辦理287"},{"start":21510.369,"end":21523.48,"text":"這改列消防署這個消防署呢改列消防署改列消防署那消防署呢好那就這個就照案通過288主席遵照辦理好 照案通過289主席遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":21539.033,"end":21541.455,"text":"接下來就中央警察大學"},{"start":21572.863,"end":21590.548,"text":"中央警察教學我們就看294齁294改組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過齁295有拜訪委員公司同意撤案295組結議已經撤案296"},{"start":21597.096,"end":21604.222,"text":"副院長跟政委也召開過好幾次會議,那分別由經濟部率同政府共同來執行,在執行當中跟委員報告怎麼樣?"},{"start":21623.949,"end":21648.974,"text":"296這個狀況 署長因為這個在臺灣 這很心酸因為消防員 我們的這些弟兄來到現場的時候根本不知道危險物品在哪裡或是說是不是有危險物品所以這個案子已經就是法律案執行面然後化學園這個區塊分別政委特別交辦幾個面向正在執行當中那我們的法律案也在"},{"start":21650.454,"end":21678.512,"text":"這個月已經報到立法院來做一個審議就是針對沒有依照法令的執行部份行事法跟行政法分別都有加重這方面的處理就說沒有申報的人對工廠輔導法這次也列入修正對這幾個面向的執行目前正在如火如荼當中那各縣市也針對這些危險物品場所全面針對高危險跟中危險場所正在全面的執行當中"},{"start":21679.392,"end":21679.632,"text":"這兩個月的時間應該可以把這些盤點清楚"},{"start":21696.127,"end":21710.155,"text":"那沒有發現更黃潤說要怎麼去處罰當然加重處罰是一個方向但是即便這個修法過了你還是要去做加強的去檢查嘛因為從桃園的例子從這個現在這個屏東的這個例子你就會知道說這個是一個長久以來的問題啊"},{"start":21719.58,"end":21743.389,"text":"工廠法這次也修正他三個月要做一個提報所以工廠法提報的結果會把這個資料跟我們做勾結就化學那邊做勾結我們一方面檢查以外另外化學那邊也會把最新的工廠法申報的結果三個月申報的結果讓我們知道所以會用交叉的方式來做一個比對市民道立法院"},{"start":21743.809,"end":21744.069,"text":"改組決議也沒有關係"},{"start":21773.01,"end":21793.368,"text":"296改為處決議對不對對好 處決議已經改好了吧好 那沒有人先通過 297凍結10萬元 文字修正凍結10萬元那這樣就病毒委員會接一半就好啦好 那文字修正嘛 對不對好 病毒委員會接一半"},{"start":21795.471,"end":21811.462,"text":"好,298病毒階級辦理,沒意見通過好,298是消防人力的部分啦,齁899改組決議,沒意見通過文字修正好,文字修正,沒意見通過改組決議,是300,300改組決議,沒意見通過好301改組決議,沒意見通過好"},{"start":21818.553,"end":21818.933,"text":"302 改組結議 303 組結議 304 組結議 召喚通過"},{"start":21837.828,"end":21844.272,"text":"305 主席改書面報告305 主席 文字修正 讓媒介修正通過306 主席 307 主席 文字修正 文字修正 修正通過308 主席 照案通過"},{"start":21867.881,"end":21868.462,"text":"309 改組決議 309 運通三項目"},{"start":21897.165,"end":21898.626,"text":"311文子修正311改組決議嗎311有改組決議嗎有委員溝通嗎有有有 這個都有溝通311怎麼樣文子修正"},{"start":21915.962,"end":21926.265,"text":"是改組決議還是文字修正就併委員會文字修正311併委員會決議辦理文字修正312改組決議文字修正313併通商科目文字修正"},{"start":21942.539,"end":21960.623,"text":"併通山314改組決議文職修正好文職修正沒有意見修正通過315併通山公務316併通山316對阿這不會沒有是吧阿他沒有沒有統山阿統山阿"},{"start":21968.301,"end":21993.38,"text":"316也是通山嗎通山通山啦這是改組決議這是沒有溝通的嗎有有有有溝通有溝通喔對那他是改組決議阿他沒有通山阿後來他不同意後來那個委員不同意啦是就通山就併那個通山啦317組決議他不同意遵照辦理遵照辦理好召喚通過318組決議"},{"start":21996.499,"end":22016.665,"text":"蚊子修正主結衣 蚊子修正 沒有意見 修正通過蚊子修正主結衣 蚊子修正通過 三二零 主結衣遵照辦理召喚通過三二一一民署三二一"},{"start":22024.948,"end":22037.831,"text":"321改組決議文字修正改組決議文字修正修正通過322併委員會決議文字修正併委員會決議辦理文字修正323併委員會決議文字修正併委員會決議辦理文字修正324"},{"start":22052.495,"end":22055.776,"text":"改組決議沒有見通過324改組決議沒有見通過325併通山326通山科目"},{"start":22086.487,"end":22088.37,"text":"兵通山3-7兵通山科目"},{"start":22095.987,"end":22099.37,"text":"368我們建議這筆照內政部的178案這個是財運系統跟漁管系統的韌性計畫雲端恢復的這個部分建議改凍結100萬書面 余書明報告368"},{"start":22121.333,"end":22131.2,"text":"來凍結一百萬年提書院報告建議嘛對不對是就你們的建議好就這樣大家同意就通過369通3 330凍結一百萬年你們會見併委員會決議文字修正併委員會決議辦理你們會見通過文字修正好331併通3"},{"start":22148.54,"end":22149.28,"text":"建築研究所主席"},{"start":22179.923,"end":22181.083,"text":"335改為凍結50萬文字修正"},{"start":22210.043,"end":22213.324,"text":"336組結議,有沒有意見?同意好,召喚通過337測案338測案有嗎?有嗎?好來來來,愛委會愛委會"},{"start":22254.004,"end":22267.653,"text":"強勢現在進行海洋委員會主管的預算首先介紹列席的所長海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲你是強勢回歸來我們就看339測案是"},{"start":22276.442,"end":22303.344,"text":"三四零 文字修正改組決議好了改組決議嗎 改一個三四零是文字修正凍結10%能不能不凍 陳委員這個併我們委員會就好了嘛沒有阿 他說就是凍結然後改文字 文字都給他改很多欸"},{"start":22304.898,"end":22333.957,"text":"整個文字我快要改完了按照你們的那個我們有跟委員溝通委員有簽字委員有簽字啦文字的部分委員有簽字啦現在就是說凍結10%的部分對啊能不能謝委員教會的德嘛你看有書面報告就可以解讀你的老同事回來改組結議怎麼樣"},{"start":22337.12,"end":22341.423,"text":"改組決議 書面報告提書面報告好不好就不要動了改組決議 文字修正提書面報告這樣這340了341 併委員會決議辦理沒有見之通過342 改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":22364.966,"end":22389.044,"text":"三四三四通三三四四是並有的接辦理沒有意見通過三四五改組決議沒有意見通過三四六通三三四七也是通三那就請大家看三四八三四八組決議文書修正沒有意見修正通過三四九組決議沒有意見就照案通過"},{"start":22391.877,"end":22410.358,"text":"三五零組結議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過三五一組結議 沒意見就召喚通過三五二組結議 沒意見就召喚通過三五三組結議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過接下來三五四就改組結議 沒意見就通過"},{"start":22413.719,"end":22415.62,"text":"一條並委員會就好了啦"},{"start":22429.69,"end":22431.671,"text":"356改組結議沒有見通過357改組結議沒有見通過358改組結議沒有見通過359並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過360組結議"},{"start":22458.703,"end":22484.984,"text":"沒有意見通過就照案通過文字修正有文字修正所以就修正通過361主席文字修正有文字修正我們就修正通過362主席照案辦理就照案通過363主席照案辦理那就照案通過"},{"start":22486.991,"end":22500.338,"text":"364 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過365 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過366 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過367 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過368 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過369 改主決議 沒意見通過370 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過371 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憲宗和民國112年12月15日 星期五18日 星期一19日 星期二上午9時至下午6時 地點本院獎報告事項一 宣讀本院第10屆第8會期第11次會議議事錄23委員吳思耀等局 不予依職保存條例委員陳培鈺等局 出管文化產業增新法教教育及文化委員審查45委員趙天寧等局 自動安全管理法及交通委員審查 住宅法教內政委員審查 6至11"},{"start":2049.953,"end":2074.418,"text":"委員和社會等局消防法交內政委員審查所得稅法交財政委員審查內政部警政署組織法交司法協法自內政兩委員審查民意部組織法經一部組織法交司法協法自經濟兩委員審查氣候變遷因應法交社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通交易及文化六委員審查所得知識六委員交紅路等局公職員財產申報法交司法協法自委員審查運動產業發言條例交交易及文化委員審查工廠管理輔導法"},{"start":2075.098,"end":2075.238,"text":"委員委員委員"},{"start":2094.341,"end":2120.07,"text":"政府採購法﹚交通委員審查28委員謝鳳等區住宅法將內政委員審查29至30請願含金水運工廠管理輔導法交經濟委員審查消防法將內政委員審查31至759經管會交易部請願內政部海委會國防部消委會經濟部農業部財政部交通部國科會和安會速發部司法院考試院法務部勞動部衛福部環境部科委會陸委會外交部國發會"},{"start":2121.09,"end":2136.497,"text":"主席總署、文化部、故宮、公平會、中央銀行、圓融會、通訊會、程序部、考選部等含送書面資料交向公委員會760交通部含位預算決議事項交交通委員會處理761交通委員會含位委員會交付事項也已處理完畢請查抄案"},{"start":2136.997,"end":2149.611,"text":"七百六十二至七百六十三所謂福利及衛生環境交通等委員會行政命運審查期限請查範七百六十四至七百六十六請願函宋本院委員所提臨時提案之嚴處情形請查範民進黨團提議"},{"start":2151.914,"end":2175.97,"text":"委員吳思耀等禮俱 青年基本法教教育及文化文明審查 二委員羅美玲等禮俱 海洋保育法教內政文明審查 公民黨黨團體一增列三委員文瑞等禮俱 性別平等工作法教社會福利及衛生環境文明審查 修例案黨團體一增列45 責任案黨團體一俱 人工生殖法教社會福利及衛生環境司法及法資料文明審查 主任住宅市場發展及管理條例教內政文明審查 職業事項宣讀完畢"},{"start":2179.192,"end":2189.121,"text":"好謝謝那接下來請登記的委員來發言發言以後我們再行處理那接下來請林楚英委員發言謝謝"},{"start":2198.303,"end":2199.383,"text":"好 請議事委員員待會宣讀"},{"start":2227.93,"end":2249.819,"text":"好那已經宣讀那個好沒問題那接下來因為登記的委員已經發言完畢我們現在就處理請問對於林楚欣委員提議有沒有意義好沒有意義的話我們就通過報告事項以及質詢事項就通過那接下來請宣讀議程草案的討論事項"},{"start":2252.2,"end":2272.843,"text":"討論事項一至十七議院會通過十八財團法案二二八世界經驗基金會等八家財團法案一百三年度預算書案十九財團法原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法原住民族語言研究發展基金會一百四三年度預算書案二十中華民國一百四三年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案"},{"start":2273.523,"end":2275.424,"text":"好 我們接下來請登記的委員發言第一位請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":2308.209,"end":2324.851,"text":"針對第10屆第8會期第12次會議議事日程討論事項你請列案順序如下列15案是否有當進行公決提案人民主進步黨立法院黨團林楚英那麼下列議案請議事人代言宣讀"},{"start":2332.312,"end":2354.259,"text":"好 請議事委員待會宣讀本院民主金融黨立法院黨團針對第10屆第8會期第12次會議議事程討論事項擬請願案 順序如下一 中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案二 運動產業發展條例修正案三 營養及健康飲食促進發炒案四 槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例修正案"},{"start":2358.463,"end":2358.643,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":2388.902,"end":2393.746,"text":"好謝謝那我們接下來請曾明中委員發言"},{"start":2400.955,"end":2424.052,"text":"好 謝謝召委 國民黨團建議下次議員會徵列一項包括廖婉如等19人 楊瓊英等17人慧蓉泰等19人 歐陽俊等18人馬文君等16人 泥鋸所得稅法第17條的修正草案等10項徵列為討論事項"},{"start":2426.974,"end":2445.987,"text":"主要的內容是現行的規定是幼兒學前特別課主委員現行的規定是0到5歲那每年是12萬元我們黨團是希望第一個是把它擴充到0到6歲那第一胎特別課主委員是12萬第二胎是18萬"},{"start":2447.068,"end":2456.927,"text":"第三台是24萬因為各位很清楚現在少子化成為國安問題我覺得相關的租稅獎勵必須進一步宽寬謝謝"},{"start":2460.23,"end":2478.503,"text":"好 謝謝曾民忠委員的發言那我們討論事項的登記委員已經發言完畢我們現在來處理那現在有兩位委員的提案林楚芸委員提議將討論事項編列第15案共15案共15案 對不起"},{"start":2481.061,"end":2503.93,"text":"是那所以這個所得稅法第17條的條文修正案那我們列為第14案這個部分當然曾秘聰委員也提議將該案列入本次的會議討論事項我們就授權議事處來依序排列所以一併處理好不好那請問對於林委員以及曾委員的提議通過有沒有異議"},{"start":2505.37,"end":2530.159,"text":"好沒有的話我們就通過討論事項我們就修正通過那接下來請宣讀人民請願案人民請願一含送本院相當未審查者共二案二一請願法第四條規定稀處因地理訴訟之事項共六案三一立法院及全刑法第六十五條規定含轉全級公安處理者共七項宣傳並"},{"start":2533.291,"end":2558.056,"text":"好請問委員會有沒有異議好沒有的話我們就通過請問有無臨時動議沒有那跟這個委員會報告這一次應該假如沒有臨時會的話是我們這個第10屆的最後一次的這個程序委員會那這個我說我們兩位召委還是要感謝所有委員這個的支持跟配合好不好那我們現在散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a885061fd95f84eadbd98db38bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a032257c9e36ddc0b84515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"17:00:38 - 17:02:01","影片長度":"00:01:23","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":83,"end_time":"2023-12-12T17:02:01+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T17:00:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.650343750000001,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.40534375,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.11284375,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.52784375,"end":34.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.26596875,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.336593750000006,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.509093750000005,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.939093750000005,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.20221875,"end":69.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.85971875,"end":71.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.39096875,"end":73.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.50034375,"end":77.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.33096875000001,"end":78.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.97221875000001,"end":83.19096875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.663,"end":28.691,"text":"院長、各位委員本院委員陳焦華等12人有鑒於麥寮工業區自民國80年行政院核准編訂至今仍有部分閒置且化設為工業區後始源從事於業之愚民、喪失於業權而無法向相關單位申請天災補助不僅"},{"start":30.451,"end":58.912,"text":"斷送此區發展漁業之權益及優勢更等同於放任地方萎縮蕭條造成在地產業人才持續流失緣此請行政院三個月內接同經濟部工業局漁業署雲林縣政府等相關單位針對解編麥寮工業區新興區及四湖區之口湖段和四湖段進行研議"},{"start":59.953,"end":74.967,"text":"是否有當請公決案本院委員陳焦華等12人提案作如下決議函請行政院嚴處請問會員有沒有異議沒有異議那通過有異議本院國民黨黨團提議請李委員得為代表發言"}]}},{"id":"149001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a885061cd700e7c947e20e838bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a03225291ab39dcec32fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"11:16:16 - 11:18:34","影片長度":"00:02:18","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":133,"end_time":"2023-12-12T11:16:02+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T11:13:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時13分）謝謝主席及各位先進。我們看到最低工資法終於三讀通過，老實講，我心中沒有一絲絲的喜悅，它只是把現在的機制變成法律位階這樣而已，其他的都沒有。我們看到蔡英文總統2016年選總統的時候就講了，他要推最低工資法，未來在他的任內工資要達到3萬塊，這二個政見都跳票啊！蔡英文到底是跳票總統，3萬塊沒有達到；最低工資法，那裡面是什麼東西？我們看到今天來講，純粹是因為賴清德選情緊張，賴清德他要騙票，所以蔡英文是跳票總統，賴清德是騙票總統候選人，他知道勞工希望有最低工資法，結果就糊弄大家。今天老實講，我們在野黨我們提得多好啊！重中之重就是實質的內容是什麼，我們的條文要跟CPI掛在一起，結果行政部門執政黨不願給我們，這算哪門子的法案？這是道地的雞肋法案，好像有但是空的，它是空的。今天有一個最新的消息，今年前10月份勞工總薪資實質負成長啊！比不上物價的上漲。我們再看，我們看到勞工的所得占GDP的比率，臺灣落到43%，遠低於歐美的50%以上，從這個就可以看得到現在執政黨太偏袒資方了，我們覺得這個法案還要繼續修，要給勞工一個真的無虞的生活條件。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請李德維委員、李德維委員不在。","接下來請林為洲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 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三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":141,"end_time":"2023-12-12T11:11:13+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T11:08:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":614,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（11時8分）謝謝主席。我想今天最低工資法能夠三讀通過，應該是朝野共識希望能夠通過這個法，爭議其實沒有那麼大，剛剛我也特別做了說明。我想最低工資法自蔡總統上任以來，其實已經逐步調整基本工資，從2萬0,008元漲到2萬7,470元，漲幅達37%；時薪也從120元漲到183元，漲幅也達52%，這都是具體的施政作為，也公平合理的將臺灣的經濟成果分享給勞工朋友，縮短貧富的差距，追求合理分配的積極手段。在這之前在這之前，當然我們臺灣整個社會對於勞工的薪資確實有一些壓抑，以降低產業的製造成本，造成工資的合理性有一些落差，加上近年來因疫情還有戰爭所牽動的物價上漲，所以薪資的漲幅帶給人民富足的感受不如預期的大。但是調整薪資是正確的道路，我們就必須堅持而不短視，共同來追求我們國家長遠的利益。本席很開心最低工資法在朝野的共識下通過立法，也讓基本工資的審議程序自命令提升到法律的位階，未來我們的最低工資將會定期審議，成員的組成以及研究小組的成立，相關的研究報告跟調整的建議公告等事項，都在本法裡面有明確的規範，所以本法通過之後，國家就會有一個常態而穩定的制度。剛剛大家提到了包括成員的組成，我想這部分剛剛我也有說明，其實在各國的制度裡面，它是三方，一個是資方、勞方，還有第三方，第三方的組成通常是學者專家跟政府，現在最低基本工資審議委員會的組成也是這樣，所以是符合人民的期待。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：林俊憲委員聲明對上午的表決與民進黨黨團意見一致，列入公報紀錄。","接下來請邱臣遠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1129402_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.172218750000003,"end":40.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.21034375,"end":138.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.03409375,"end":142.21971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.729,"end":33.943,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天最低工資法能夠三讀通過應該是大家朝野共識希望能夠通過這個法那爭議其實沒有那麼大這剛我也特別的說明我想最低工資法自我們這個蔡總統上任來其實已經逐步調整基本工資從2萬08元到2萬7千4百4"},{"start":41.048,"end":69.93,"text":"470元這個漲幅達37%時薪也從120元漲到183元這個漲幅也到52%這都是具體的施政作為也公平合理的將台灣的經濟成果分享給勞工朋友縮短這個貧富的差距追求合理分配的一個積極手段那在這之前當然我們台灣整個社會對於勞工的性質確實有一些壓抑所以以降低這個產業的製造的成本所以造成工資合理性有一些落差"},{"start":70.91,"end":89.686,"text":"加上近年來的疫情和戰爭所牽動的物價上漲所以新資的漲幅帶給人民的富足感受不如預期的大但是這個是正確的道路調整新資我們就必須堅持不短視共同來追求我們國家長遠的利益"},{"start":90.226,"end":107.079,"text":"本期很開心最低工資法在朝野的共識下通過立法也讓基本工資的一個審議程序致命令提升到法律的位階未來我們的最低工資將會定期審議成年的組成以及研究小組的成立相關的研究報告跟"},{"start":108.58,"end":136.469,"text":"調整的建議公告的事項都在本法裡面有明確的規範所以本法通過之後國家的一個穩定是會有一個常態穩定的一個制度那剛剛大家提到了包括成員的一個組成我想這個剛我也在說明裡面其實在各國裡面它是三方一個是資方、勞方還有第三方那第三方的組成通常是學者、專家跟政府所以我們現在的最低基本工資的一個組成也是這樣的一個組成所以是符合"},{"start":137.05,"end":137.891,"text":"人民的期待"}]}},{"id":"148997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a885061ae6a2f8890b3310c38bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a0322aa147171e91de78e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱顯智","委員發言時間":"11:06:07 - 11:08:45","影片長度":"00:02:38","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":158,"end_time":"2023-12-12T11:08:45+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T11:06:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（11時6分）主席、各位同仁。今天看到最低工資法終於三讀，我的心中百感交集，最低工資法立法向來是時代力量的核心主張，不管是在第9屆還是第10屆的國會，時代力量都是第一個領銜提出最低工資法草案的政黨。反觀蔡政府從上任前就開始講的最低工資法，卻拖了7年，拖到選舉前的最後一個會期才送到立法院，好像如果不是因為選舉就不用遵守承諾，就不用照顧勞工一樣。雖然最低工資法拖到現在終於完成三讀，該給的肯定還是要給，可是我也必須要說，這部法還是有許多沒有處理好的地方。","我在本法審議的過程之中所強調的原則很簡單，我認為最低工資法至少要做到二個最基本的保障，第一個是對弱勢勞工的保障，因此我主張最低工資的調幅不能夠低於物價的漲幅，為的就是不希望讓弱勢勞工的薪水被高漲的物價吃掉，這應該是政府最基本的工作，也是勞工最卑微的請求，可惜勞動部不接受，因為保持彈性比勞工的三餐更重要。","我主張的第二個保障是對審議專業的保障，我認為最低工資的審議會當中，資方、勞方以及專家學者三方的人數應該要相同，這也是日本跟韓國的相關制度，但是不論是與日本法或韓國法相比，基本上勞動部的主張在比較法上面，根本就不符合國外類似的制度。我也要嚴正的提醒勞動部，請不要在審查的時候提供錯誤的訊息、比較法的資訊來誤導審查。","最後我們還是要呼籲勞動部，既然最低工資法已經通過，未來審議時就應該尊重專業，並應該儘可能的不讓最低工資的漲幅被通膨的物價給吃掉，這樣才是真正符合最低工資法立法精神的作法。以上。"],["主席：接下來請吳玉琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1129402_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.60159375,"end":34.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.01284375,"end":39.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.362218750000004,"end":58.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.67159375000001,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.59471875,"end":105.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.60096875,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.55596875,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.21284375000002,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.07221875000002,"end":141.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.96659375000002,"end":142.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.18159375000002,"end":143.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.97471875000002,"end":147.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.87284375000002,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.00721875000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.16721875000002,"end":154.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.97721875000002,"end":155.41596875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.752,"end":39.592,"text":"主席各位同仁今天看到最低工資法終於刪讀我的心中百感交集最低工資法立法向來是十二力量的核心主張不管是在第九屆還是第十屆的國會十二力量都是第一個領先提出最低工資法草案的政黨反觀蔡政府從上任前就開始講的最低工資法"},{"start":40.753,"end":57.831,"text":"卻拖了7年拖到選舉前的最後一個會期才送到立法院好像如果不是因為選舉就不用遵守承諾就不用照顧勞工一樣雖然最低工資法拖到現在終於完成三讀該給的肯定還是要給"},{"start":58.812,"end":73.283,"text":"可是我也必須要說這部法還是有許多沒有處理好的地方我在這個審議的過程之中強調的原則很簡單我認為最低工資法至少要做到兩個最基本的保障"},{"start":73.883,"end":94.477,"text":"第一個是對弱勢勞工的保障因此我主張最低工資的條幅不能夠低於物價的漲幅為的就是不希望讓弱勢的勞工的薪水被高漲的物價吃掉這應該是政府最基本的工作也是勞工最卑微的請求可惜"},{"start":95.417,"end":121.735,"text":"勞動部不接受因為保持彈性比勞工的三餐更重要我主張的第二個保障是對審議專業的保障我認為最低工資的審議會當中資方、勞方以及專家學者三方的人數應該要相同這也是日本跟韓國的這個相關的制度但是勞動部不論是日本法或韓國法"},{"start":123.578,"end":136.951,"text":"都認為說勞動部的主張基本上根本就不符合國外的這個比較法上面的制度那我要嚴正的提醒勞動部請不要在審查時候提供錯誤的訊息"},{"start":141.122,"end":156.802,"text":"但最後我們還是要顧名昂重既然最新公司法已經公佈未來審議就應該公眾發言並應該盡可能的不讓最新公司的場域被統統的物價吃掉這樣才是真正符合最新公司法的立法精神過後吧"}]}},{"id":"148996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a885061e7c746d89d4320ca38bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a03224051eebfdffcce755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"曾銘宗","委員發言時間":"11:03:49 - 11:06:03","影片長度":"00:02:14","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":134,"end_time":"2023-12-12T11:06:03+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T11:03:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["曾委員銘宗：（11時3分）謝謝主席蔡副院長、各位同仁大家好。最低工資法剛剛完成三讀，我有二點意見，第一點，程序上要訂定最低工資法是蔡英文總統的政見，但是拖了超過7年半都不提出修正草案，直到最近才虛應故事，將修正草案送到立法院來，這是第一點。","第二點，實質內容的部分，第七條規定審議會委員二十一人，由勞動部部長擔任召集人，經濟部代表一人、國發會代表一人、專家學者四人，勞方代表只有七人，資方代表也是七人，這樣的組成結構到時候沒有辦法作實質的決策，國民黨團是希望勞方代表要過半。再來是第九條規定有關最低工資之審議，應參據消費者物價指數，擬訂調整幅度。基本上國民黨黨團希望強力要求調整的幅度不得低於前一年的CPI（消費者物價指數），這樣才有辦法隨著物價的調整來保障所有勞工最低消費的權益。最低工資保障法不是要保障他的名目，而是要保障他的實質購買力。","對於這兩條重要的條文，國民黨團都提出修正動議，但各位也看到了，剛剛表決的時候，國民黨是強力支持，但民進黨都強力反對，所以最低工資法雖然完成三讀，但基本上我預期最低工資法只是徒具形式，沒有辦法發揮它實質的功能，我高度懷疑民進黨打假球！打假球！打假球！"],["主席：接下來請邱顯智委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 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三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":104,"end_time":"2023-12-12T11:01:12+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T10:59:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":594,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時59分）副院長、大家好。最低工資法終於三讀通過，小英總統任內資本工資連八漲，但在小英總統之前，因為沒有法制化規範，連年調升並不是常態，更曾經凍漲10年，所以我也一直呼籲最低工資法的立法應建立穩定的審議機制，實質反映生活水平的變動，才能確保勞工維持具有人性尊嚴的基本生活品質。","我在2021年就提出最低工資法的草案，也直接質詢勞動部長，更五度跟民團召開記者會，呼籲勞動部儘速提出對案。我要特別謝謝衛環委員會跟所有關心的委員，此外要特別感謝勞陣、全產總、北產總的建議跟協助，讓立法院能夠看到弱勢勞工的需求。","這次的立法讓臺灣得以趕上世界的腳步，建構完善的最低工資審議機制。重要的是，全臺灣領基本工資的240萬勞工未來不用再擔心薪資凍漲，在通膨之下反而成為變相減薪。雖然我的版本中時薪與月薪不脫鉤以及更為強化的公民參與機制並未納入，但是未來我會持續關注新法上路的情況，落實最低工資持續合理調漲，保障我們全臺灣最弱勢的勞工。謝謝。"],["主席：鄭正鈐委員聲明對早上的表決與國民黨黨團意見一致，列入公報紀錄。","接下來請陳椒華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 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- 10:23:03","影片長度":"00:03:19","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":199,"end_time":"2023-12-12T10:23:03+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T10:19:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":252,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（10時19分）謝謝副院長。10月18日衛環委員會就審查了最低工資法，也經過兩次的政黨協商，剩下4條政黨有不同的意見，就針對不同意見跟大家表述一下民進黨的看法。","行政院的第七條有關審議會的人數，主要世界各國對於最低工資審議委員的成員大概都由勞方、資方跟第三方組成，人數多為相同。所謂第三方代表通常是學者專家或政府代表，我們也是繼續沿用目前基本工資審議成員的組成，希望在學者專家的人數不宜再增加，因為連同政府的代表、第三方的人數，將會超過勞資委員，這對未來社會對話的功能會模糊化，這也是勞雇團體認同的一個作法，所以請支持民進黨的修正動議。","第二個是第九條的部分，這個在最低工資法的審議裡面是一個核心條文。因為消費者物價指數的年增率是維持勞工必須購買力的一個重要指標，這個指標我們也絕對認為要考慮，所以列為應參採的指標；至於得參採的指標應該是以勞雇團體們具有共識、較無爭議的為主，所以目前有10款。其他政黨提到的是要訂定調幅的樓地板，若是只針對特定指標作為處理，無法斟酌其他指標及整體社會經濟情勢，欠缺彈性，所以我們建議是不宜增列這個部分，請支持我們民進黨的修正動議。","另外第十二條的部分，有關研究小組是這一次條文裡面特別有別於基本工資審議的一個機制。研究小組只是一個研究組織，它所作成的研究報告跟調整建議，主要是提供給最低工資審議會審查參考之用，所以是不是要調整或是調幅都由最低工資審議會來決議。研究報告跟調整的建議是審查會議資料的一部分，也會在第十一條最低工資審查會議結束之後30天內公告，讓外界瞭解，不宜在會前公布，所以請支持我們民進黨的修正動議。","最後一個是各黨在討論針對違反最低工資的廠商要排除參加政府採購法的一個條文，我們認為這個部分，因為這個法主要是針對最低工資的審議，希望保障最低工資勞工跟家庭的一個水準，排除違反廠商參加政府採購的規範，應該回到政府採購法或採購契約來規定，不要在本法訂定，所以請支持民進黨的修正提案，不予採納。","謝謝委員們的支持，我們最低工資法應該在這個會期能夠三讀通過，是所有勞工朋友的一個期待，謝謝。"],["主席：現在進行保留條文之處理。","本案宣讀院會所收修正動議條文，其餘提案條文均列入公報紀錄。","請宣讀第七條條文。"],["時代力量黨團提案："],["台灣民眾黨黨團提案："],["國民黨黨團提案："],["民進黨黨團提案："],["時代力量黨團修正動議：","第　七　條　　審議會置委員二十五人，由勞動部部長擔任召集人，並為當然委員；其餘委員之組成如下：","一、勞動部代表一人。","二、經濟部代表一人。","三、國家發展委員會代表一人。","四、勞方代表七人。","五、資方代表七人。","六、學者專家七人。","前項勞方代表及資方代表，分別由全國性勞工及工商之相關團體推薦後，由中央主管機關遴聘之。","第一項第六款學者專家，由勞動部遴聘具有勞工、法律、社會或經濟相關學識、經驗之社會公正人士擔任。","審議會委員，任一性別比例不得少於三分之一。"],["台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議：","第　七　條　　審議會置召集人一人，並為當然委員，由勞動部部長兼任之；另置委員二十四人，其組成如下：","一、勞動部代表一人。","二、經濟部代表一人。","三、國家發展委員會一人。","四、勞方代表七人。","五、資方代表七人。","六、專家學者七人。","前項勞方代表及資方代表，由相關勞工及工商團體推薦後，由勞動部遴聘之。","第一項第六款之專家學者，由勞動部遴聘具有勞工、法律、社會、經濟、公衛、財稅或會計相關學識、經驗之社會公正人士擔任。","本會委員單一性別比例不得多於三分之二。"],["國民黨黨團修正動議：","第　七　條　　審議會置委員二十一人，由勞動部部長擔任召集人，並為當然委員；其餘委員之組成如下：","一、國家發展委員會代表一人。","二、勞方代表九人。","三、資方代表七人。","四、學者專家三人。","前項勞方代表及資方代表，分別由全國性勞工及工商之相關團體推薦後，由中央主管機關遴聘之。","第一項第五款學者專家，由中央主管機關遴聘之。審議會委員，任一性別比例不得少於三分之一。"],["民進黨黨團修正動議：","第　七　條　　審議會置委員二十一人，由勞動部部長擔任召集人，並為當然委員；其餘委員之組成如下：","一、經濟部代表一人。","二、國家發展委員會代表一人。","三、勞方代表七人。","四、資方代表七人。","五、學者專家四人。","前項勞方代表及資方代表，分別由全國性勞工及工商之相關團體推薦後，由中央主管機關遴聘之。","第一項第五款學者專家，由中央主管機關遴聘之。","審議會委員，任一性別比例不得少於三分之一。"],["主席：現在表決時代力量黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席70人，贊成2人，反對51人，棄權17人，贊成者少數，時代力量黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時27分28秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第七條","　　　　　時代力量黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：70　　贊成人數：2　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：17","贊成：","王婉諭　　邱顯智","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞"],["主席：現在表決台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席70人，贊成5人，反對51人，棄權14人，贊成者少數，台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時28分54秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第七條","　　　　　台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：70　　贊成人數：5　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：14","贊成：","王婉諭　　邱顯智　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞"],["主席：現在表決國民黨黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席71人，贊成15人，反對51人，棄權5人，贊成者少數，國民黨黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時30分18秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第七條","　　　　　國民黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：15　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：5","贊成：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　費鴻泰　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","王婉諭　　邱顯智　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶"],["主席：請問院會，本條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過，有無異議？（無）沒有異議，第七條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過。","現在進行第九條，請宣讀條文。"],["時代力量黨團修正動議：","第　九　條　　最低工資之決定，年度調整幅度不得低於消費者物價指數年增率之漲幅，且不得低於前一年最低工資。","最低工資之擬訂，並得參採下列資料：","一、勞動生產力指數年增率。","二、勞工平均薪資年增率。","三、國家經濟發展狀況。","四、國民所得及平均每人所得。","五、國內生產毛額及成本構成之分配比率。","六、民生物價及生產者物價變動狀況。","七、各業產業發展情形及就業狀況。","八、各業勞工工資。","九、家庭收支狀況。","十、最低生活費。"],["台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議：","第　九　條　　最低工資調幅之審議，年度調整幅度不得低於重要民生物資消費者物價指數年增率，且不得低於前一年最低工資。","最低工資調幅之擬訂，並得參採下列資料：","一、勞動生產力指數年增率。","二、勞工平均薪資年增率。","三、國家經濟發展狀況。","四、國民所得及平均每人所得。","五、國內生產毛額及成本構成之分配比率。","六、躉售物價及民生物價變動狀況。","七、各業產業發展情形及就業狀況。","八、各業勞工工資。","九、家庭收支調查統計。","十、最低生活費。","十一、租金年增率等住宿成本。","十二、就業扶養比。","前二項所定資料之目的事業主管機關，應定期將資料送勞動部彙整。","勞動部應會同第十二條規定之研究小組制定前項規定之最低工資調整公式。"],["國民黨黨團修正動議：","第　九　條　　最低工資之訂定，年度調整幅度不得低於消費者物價指數年增率之漲幅，且不得低於前一年最低工資。","前項訂定，並得參採下列資料：","一、勞動生產力指數年增率。","二、勞工平均薪資年增率。","三、國家經濟發展狀況。","四、國民所得及平均每人所得。","五、國內生產毛額及成本構成之分配比率。","六、民生物價及生產者物價變動狀況。","七、各業產業發展情形及就業狀況。","八、各業勞工工資。","九、家庭收支狀況。","十、最低生活費。"],["民進黨黨團修正動議：","第　九　條　　最低工資之審議，應參採消費者物價指數年增率擬訂調整幅度。","前項審議，並得參採下列資料：","一、勞動生產力指數年增率。","二、勞工平均薪資年增率。","三、國家經濟發展狀況。","四、國民所得及平均每人所得。","五、國內生產毛額及成本構成之分配比率。","六、民生物價及生產者物價變動狀況。","七、各業產業發展情形及就業狀況。","八、各業勞工工資。","九、家庭收支狀況。","十、最低生活費。"],["主席：現在表決時代力量黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席71人，贊成3人，反對51人，棄權17人，贊成者少數，時代力量黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時35分10秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第九條","　　　　　時代力量黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：3　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：17","贊成：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞"],["主席：現在表決台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：陳椒華委員聲明對剛才第七條的表決與時代力量黨團意見一致，列入公報紀錄。","表決結果：出席71人，贊成6人，反對51人，棄權14人，贊成者少數，台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時36分51秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第九條","　　　　　台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：6　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：14","贊成：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞"],["主席：現在表決國民黨黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席71人，贊成17人，反對51人，棄權3人，贊成者少數，國民黨黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時38分18秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第九條","　　　　　國民黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：17　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：3","贊成：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智　　曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶"],["主席：請問院會，本條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過，有無異議？（無）沒有異議，第九條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過。","現在進行第十二條，請宣讀條文。"],["時代力量黨團修正動議：","第十二條　　中央主管機關應組成研究小組，研究最低工資審議事宜。","前項研究小組之組成，應包括下列人員：","一、學者專家六人，其中四人由第七條第一項第六款所定學者專家擔任，其餘由中央主管機關遴聘之。","二、中央主管機關、國家發展委員會、經濟部、財政部及行政院主計總處各指派一人。","第一項研究小組應於每年四月向審議會提出最低工資實施對經濟及就業狀況之影響報告，並於審議會召開會議三十日前，就第九條所定審議參採資料公布研究報告及調整建議。"],["台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議：","第十二條　　勞動部應設研究小組，由第七條第一項第六款所定之專家學者七人組成，定期召開會議，就最低工資審議事宜研究之。","研究小組為蒐集研究資料，得視需要辦理相關團體之諮詢、聽證、座談會議，並得函請中央相關機關提出與第九條所定標準相關之資料，並依行政序法之規定召開公聽會。","研究小組應於每年四月向審議會報告最低工資實施對經濟及就業狀況之影響，並於審議會召開會議三十日前，就第九條所定之指標提出研究報告及具體調整方案建議。","第三項之報告及建議，應公布於勞動部專屬網站，並載明下列事項：","一、是否調整最低工資及調整範圍之具體建議。","二、作成前款建議之理由及判斷之基礎資料。","研究小組之會議召集程序與議事規則，由中央主管機關另定之。"],["民進黨黨團修正動議：","第十二條　　中央主管機關應組成研究小組，研究最低工資審議事宜。","前項研究小組之組成，應包括下列人員：","一、學者專家六人，其中四人由第七條第一項第五款所定學者專家擔任，其餘由中央主管機關遴聘之。","二、中央主管機關、國家發展委員會、經濟部、財政部及行政院主計總處各指派一人。","第一項研究小組應於每年四月向審議會提出最低工資實施對經濟及就業狀況之影響報告，並於審議會召開會議三十日前，就第九條所定審議參採資料提出研究報告及調整建議。"],["主席：現在表決時代力量黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團及時代力量黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席委員71人，贊成者3人，反對者51人，棄權者17人，贊成者少數，時代力量黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時42分40秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第十二條","　　　　　時代力量黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：3　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：17","贊成：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞"],["主席：現在表決台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席委員71人，贊成者6人，反對者51人，棄權者14人，贊成者少數，台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時44分03秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第十二條","　　　　　台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：6　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：14","贊成：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞"],["主席：請問院會，本條依照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過，有無異議？（有）有異議，進行表決。","現在表決民進黨黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席71人，贊成51人，反對14人，棄權6人，贊成者多數，第十二條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時45分36秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案第十二條","　　　　　民進黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：51　　反對人數：14　　棄權人數：6","贊成：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","反對：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞","棄權：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶"],["主席：現在進行協商結論保留條文(二)委員及黨團提案條文，請宣讀各黨團版本。"],["時代力量黨團修正動議：","第十六條　　各級機關辦理採購，發現廠商有違反本法規定者，應將其事實及理由通知廠商，並命於一定期間內不得參加政府採購法所稱投標或作為決標對象或分包廠商。","前項情形準用政府採購法第一百零二條及第一百零三條之規定。"],["台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議：","第十四條　　各級機關辦理採購，發現廠商有違反本法規定者，應將其事實及理由通知廠商，並命於一定期間內不得參加政府採購法所稱投標或作為決標對象或分包廠商。","前項情形準用政府採購法第一百零二條及第一百零三條之規定。"],["國民黨黨團修正動議：","第十六條　　最低工資之監督及檢查，適用勞動基準法監督與檢查及其他相關事項之規定。","各級機關辦理採購，發現廠商有違反本法規定者，應將其事實及理由通知廠商，並命其於一定期間內不得參加政府採購法所稱投標或作為決標對象或分包廠商。","前項情形準用政府採購法第一百零二條及第一百零三條之規定。"],["民進黨黨團修正動議：","（不予採納）"],["主席：時代力量黨團修正動議條文第十六條和台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文第十四條條文內容相同，所以我們一併處理。","現在表決時代力量黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團分別所提修正動議條文。民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席71人，贊成6人，反對51人，棄權14人，贊成者少數，時代力量黨團修正動議第十六條、台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議第十四條條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時48分37秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案協商結論保留條文(二)","　　　　　時代力量黨團台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：6　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：14","贊成：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智　　邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞"],["主席：現在表決國民黨黨團修正動議條文。民進黨黨團要求記名表決，時間1分鐘，現在開始。","（進行表決）"],["主席：表決結果：出席71人，贊成17人，反對51人，棄權3人，贊成者少數，國民黨黨團修正動議條文不通過。"],["表決結果名單：","會議名稱：立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議　　表決型態：記名表決","表決時間：中華民國112年12月12日 上午10時50分10秒","表決議題：討論事項第七案協商結論保留條文(二)","　　　　　國民黨黨團修正動議","表決結果：出席人數：71　　贊成人數：17　　反對人數：51　　棄權人數：3","贊成：","王婉諭　　陳椒華　　邱顯智　　曾銘宗　　謝衣鳯　　李德維　　李貴敏　　賴士葆　　吳斯懷　　林為洲　　廖婉汝　　游毓蘭　　林文瑞　　王鴻薇　　張育美　　溫玉霞　　翁重鈞","反對：","羅美玲　　莊瑞雄　　柯建銘　　劉世芳　　湯蕙禎　　李昆澤　　江永昌　　洪申翰　　何欣純　　林宜瑾　　陳培瑜　　鍾佳濱　　莊競程　　劉建國　　吳玉琴　　郭國文　　林岱樺　　楊　曜　　陳秀寳　　林楚茵　　許智傑　　賴品妤　　黃秀芳　　陳　瑩　　邱泰源　　黃世杰　　陳靜敏　　王定宇　　羅致政　　賴惠員　　陳明文　　陳亭妃　　何志偉　　鄭運鵬　　張廖萬堅　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳素月　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　張宏陸　　吳思瑤　　高嘉瑜　　范　雲　　沈發惠　　吳秉叡　　蘇巧慧　　賴瑞隆　　蘇治芬　　邱志偉　　林昶佐　　蔡易餘","棄權：","邱臣遠　　陳琬惠　　賴香伶"],["主席：報告院會，協商結論保留條文(二)，不予採納。","全案經過二讀，現有民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團提議繼續進行三讀，請問院會，有無異議？（無）沒有異議，請宣讀經過二讀之條文。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1129402_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.00909375,"end":189.67221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.491,"end":23.759,"text":"謝謝副院長10月18號我們未還委員會就審查這個我們這一公知法那也經過兩次的政黨協商剩下4條的一個政黨有不同的意見那就針對不同意見來跟大家表述一下民進黨的一個看法行政院的第7條有關審議會的人數"},{"start":26,"end":43.791,"text":"主要世界各國對於最低工資的審議委員的成員大概都由勞方、資方跟第三方組成人數多為相同所謂的第三方代表通常是學者專家或政府代表所以目前我們也是延用了繼續延用目前最低基本工資的審議成員的一個組成"},{"start":46.232,"end":72.769,"text":"所以希望是在這個學者專家的人數不宜再增加因為連同政府的代表第三方的人數將會超過勞資委員這會將對未來的社會對話功能會模糊化這也是勞僱團體認同的一個做法所以請支持民進黨的一個修正動議那第二個是第9條的部分最低工資的審議裡面這個是一個核心的條文因為消費者物價指數的連徵力"},{"start":74.33,"end":81.813,"text":"是維持勞工必須購買力的一個重要指標所以這個指標我們也絕對認為要考慮所以列為應參採的指標至於得參採的指標應該是以勞僱團體們共具有共識較無爭議的一個為主所以目前有10款那在這個其他政黨裡面提到的是說要訂定調補的樓地板"},{"start":97.179,"end":113.299,"text":"若是只針對特定指標來作為處理無法斟酌其他指標及整體社會經濟情勢欠缺彈性所以我們建議是不予增列這個部分所以請支持我們民進黨的一個修正動議那定位第12條的部分"},{"start":114.961,"end":129.68,"text":"有關研究小組是這一次條文裡面特別有別於基本公知審議的一個機制那研究小組只是一個研究組織它所做成的研究報告跟調整建議主要是提供給最低公知審議會來審查參考之用"},{"start":132.623,"end":154.859,"text":"所以是不是要調整或是調補都由最低工資審議會來做決議那研究報告跟調整的建議是審查會議資料的一部分也會在第11條最低工資審查會議結束之後30天內會公告所以會讓外界來了解所以不宜在會前公佈所以也請支持我們民進黨的一個修正動議"},{"start":155.86,"end":174.346,"text":"最後一個是各黨在討論說針對違反最低工資的廠商要排除參加政府的採購法的一個條文我們認為這個部分因為這個法主要是針對最低工資的審議希望來保障最低工資勞工跟家庭的一個水準"},{"start":175.106,"end":187.496,"text":"那排除違反廠商參加政府採購的規範應該回到政府採購法或採購契約來規定不要在本法來訂定所以請支持民進黨的一個修正提案不予採納謝謝我們委員們"}]}},{"id":"148992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a8850613d1960fcd70be00238bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a032280d52c9929101f6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"10:16:09 - 10:19:37","影片長度":"00:03:28","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":208,"end_time":"2023-12-12T10:19:37+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T10:16:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（10時16分）很遺憾，這一次的最低工資法雖然今天已經到院會要進行三讀，但是這個已經延宕了七年多，我去年5月份在衛環委員會擔任召委的時候也提出排案，當時也是受到執政黨的阻擋，理由是行政院版本還在蒐集資料，還沒完成，所以不予審議。","今天終於因為選舉，所以我們看到能夠來這邊三讀了，所以我還是要感慨的說一聲「選舉萬歲」！如果沒有這個選舉，最低工資法不會在今天三讀，你們都已經執政七年多了，但是這個三讀的版本、我們看到行政院的版本還是覺得很遺憾，前面幾位在野黨團發言的部分我們都予以肯定，國民黨黨團的版本則堅持三個原則，第一個原則就是審議委員會的委員，勞方代表一定要超過資方代表，我們看到行政院的版本，勞方代表跟資方代表同樣的名額，但是如果再加上政府的代表，勞方代表在這個審議委員會裡面還是弱勢，所以我們的版本勞方代表一定要大於資方代表，但是也不至於會失衡，因為還有專家學者，這是我們強調的第一點，勞方代表大於資方代表非常具有指標性的意義。","第二點，每年調整最低工資，行政院版本只是講到要參採CPI消費指數，參採是什麼意思？即參考採納，也可以不採納，國民黨版本堅持一定要高於CPI指數調整的幅度，這樣才有實質的意義。","第三點，違反最低工資法的資方要受到懲罰，除了罰款之外，還包括在一段時間內不得參與國家的標案，這樣的處罰合情合理，但執政黨竟然也不同意，你要讓這樣違反最低工資法苛刻勞工的這種企業繼續參與國家的採購，我們不懂為什麼要反對這一點。以上是國民黨的三個重點，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請吳玉琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 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- 10:16:00","影片長度":"00:03:13","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":193,"end_time":"2023-12-12T10:16:00+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T10:12:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":241,"blocks":[["賴委員香伶：（10時12分）主席、各位委員。我想我們要面對的是一個被遺忘了7年的最低工資法，要不是賴副總統一聲令下，民進黨的黨團或者是勞動部也不會把版本在10天之內送到立院，歷經短暫的協商，我想我們對最低工資法的立法雖然有非常多內容上面的不足，但是我們還是期待能夠在這個會期可以通過。","一個延宕7年的立法，我想勞動部在2019年是有送了版本到行政院，當時的蘇院長跟許部長多次用要蒐集民間的意見，其實是企業的意見來作為推託，到現在送進來之後，我們看到有幾個部分還是相當的不足，但我想我們還要先面對今年在9月8日基本工資審議小組裡面，對於審議的薪資由2萬6,400元調漲到2萬7,470元，是有微幅的上漲，民進黨政府也長期說這幾年來調升了非常多次，但是我們要講，蔡英文總統自己喊出說3萬元的基本工資，請問這個金額實現了嗎？還是跳票了！所以一個喊價式的或者是用動員式的方式來做選舉的開價方式的基本工資是不應該淪為政治上的一個籌碼。","因此，我們強調未來在修訂的這個版本裡面，民眾黨的版本很清楚有提出三個方向，首先，我們還是正視一個基本工資代表的是邊緣弱勢勞工以及相關打工時薪等等的基本規格，它當然是法遵的最基本，也是保障最低生活品質的一個象徵，所以它必須要有專業的委員來進行審議。","因此，在所謂的審議委員的代表席次裡面，我們認為政府部門的代表要降低，維持中立性即好，勞方代表、資方代表跟公益代表要占7：7：7席來作為一個比較合理的配比；第二個，我們希望整個最低工資的調幅能夠不低於重要民生物資的消費物價指數年增率，也不可以低於前一年的基本工資，這個當然是要能夠與時俱進反映通膨以及反映薪資被通膨吃掉的狀況；第三個，我們期待一個可長可久的制度，要讓審議委員不能被架空，因此在所謂的調幅以及相關的公式裡面，其實是可以透過研究小組制定提出相關的公式配比，不是像現在執政黨說有了公式之後，未來如果遇到特殊情況反而無法有彈性處理，這是一個推諉之詞，我們應該讓國人相信制度，而不是相信個人。","因此，在這次的修法裡面，民眾黨的版本包括第七條、第九條、第十二條及第十四條有關採購法的部分，一個基本法遵都不遵守的企業，它當然不能參與國家一些重要的投標資格，這個是法律上明定，也是公益社會應該要期待的修法，希望大家一起支持民眾黨的版本，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請林為洲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1129402_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.54096875,"end":188.18721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.561,"end":22.578,"text":"主席、各位委員我想我們要面對的是一個被遺忘了7年的最低工資法要不是賴副總統一聲令下民進黨的黨團或者是勞動部也不會把版本在10天之內送到立院歷經短暫的協商我想我們最低工資法的立法"},{"start":23.238,"end":48.957,"text":"雖然有非常多內容上面的不足但是我們還是期待能夠在這個會期可以通過一個延宕7年的立法我想勞動部在2019年是有送了版本到行政院當時的蘇院長跟許部長多次用要收集民間的意見其實是企業的意見來作為推託到現在送進來之後我們看到有幾個部分還是相當的不足但我想我們還要先面對今年在9月8號"},{"start":49.918,"end":70.275,"text":"基本工資審議小組裡面對於審議的薪資由26,400元調漲到27,470元是有微幅的上漲民進黨政府也長期說這幾年來調升了非常多次但是我們要講蔡英文總統自己說要含出3萬元的基本工資請問這個金額實現了嗎還是跳票了"},{"start":73.638,"end":98.336,"text":"所以一個喊價式的或者是用動員式的方式來做選舉的開價的這個方式的基本工資是不應該淪為政治上的一個籌碼因此我們強調在未來在修正的這個版本裡面民眾黨的版本很清楚有提出三個方向首先我們還是正視一個基本工資代表的是邊緣弱勢勞工以及相關的這個打工時薪等等的一個基本規格"},{"start":98.956,"end":122.524,"text":"他當然是法尊的最基本也是保障最低生活品質的一個象徵所以他必須要有專業的委員來進行審議因此在所謂的審議委員的代表席次裡面我們認為政府部門的代表要降低維持中立性極好那勞方代表、資方代表跟公益代表要佔777席來作為一個比較合理的配比"},{"start":122.984,"end":148.915,"text":"那第二個我們希望整個最低工資的條幅呢能夠不低於重要民生物資的消費物價指數年增率也不可以低於前一年的基本工資這個當然是能夠與時俱進反映通膨以及反映薪資被通膨吃掉的狀況第三個我們期待一個可長可久的制度要讓審議委員不能被架空因此在所謂的條幅以及相關的公式裡面"},{"start":149.415,"end":170.769,"text":"其實是可以透過研究小組制定提出相關的公式配比那不是像現在執政黨說有了公式之後未來如果遇到特殊情況反而無法有彈性處理這是一個推諉之詞我們應該讓國人相信制度而不是相信個人因此在這次的修法裡面民眾黨的版本包括第7條、第9條、第12條及第14條有關採購法的部分也一樣期待"},{"start":176.132,"end":187.968,"text":"一個基本法尊都不生存的企業他當然不能參與國家的重要的一些投標的資格這個是法律上明定也是公益社會應該要期待的修法希望大家一起"}]}},{"id":"148990","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148990","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a885061ce2b7874f0d563d338bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a0322f9795706fb47d6f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王婉諭","委員發言時間":"10:09:21 - 10:12:42","影片長度":"00:03:21","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":201,"end_time":"2023-12-12T10:12:42+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T10:09:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["王委員婉諭：（10時9分）最低工資法是時代力量長期以來的核心主張，不論是在第9屆或是第10屆國會，時代力量都是第一個領銜提出最低工資法草案的政黨。這次審查保留的第七條，時代力量的訴求非常清楚也非常簡單，就是希望最低工資的審議會要專業化，所以我們主張勞、資、學三方的人數應該是要1：1：1，而且政府部門的參加，不論政府代表是出席還是列席，都不應該成為勞動部拿來壓縮學者專家人數的藉口，在審查的時候，勞動部不斷地拿日本和韓國的制度來舉例，說日本和韓國的三方機制是勞、資和公正方，公正方包含了政府官員的代表，三方的人數是相等的，結果在時代力量黨團的查證之下，找出了日韓的委員名單以及會議紀錄，發現勞動部根本就是鬼扯一通，蓄意提供錯誤的資訊來誤導委員的判斷，日本和韓國的審議會勞、資、學三方的人數都是1：1：1，公正方明明只有專家學者，根本沒有政府代表也是專家學者這件事，對此我們也要嚴厲的譴責勞動部公然說謊、欺瞞國會。","另外，勞動部也承認了他們審查會的機制是參考日韓，那這部分就應該要比照日本和韓國，將專家學者的人數提高到勞方和資方一樣是7：7：7，也就是時代力量的主張，這才是真正的言行一致。同時，時代力量黨團也認為，最低工資每年調整的幅度應該要不低於消費者物價指數的年增率。為什麼最低工資應該要每年調整？除了讓勞工分享經濟的果實之外，最重要的當然是希望能夠保障邊緣勞工薪水的實質購買力，不會因為物價上漲、物價高漲的關係讓錢變得越來越薄，變相的反而讓薪水是倒退縮的，讓他們的生活越來越辛苦。","所以我們認為應該要讓最低工資法的調幅和消費者物價指數清楚的結合和掛勾，至少要維持弱勢勞工的購買能力，這是政府應該做到的最基本工作、最基本的保障，也是勞工朋友最卑微的請求，而不是像現在行政院的版本，大玩文字遊戲，不論是「應參採」又或者是「得參採」都只是參考用，完全沒有實質的強制性，也沒有拘束力，從保障勞工的角度出發，立法院本來就可以做得更多，也應該要做得更多。","所以要請大家支持時代力量黨團的版本，讓勞、資、學三方是1：1：1的比例，同時讓最低工資的調幅應該要超過CPI的調整指數，讓我們大家真正能夠一起來捍衛弱勢勞工的權利、捍衛邊緣勞工的權利，讓大家不再這麼辛苦，所有的黨團都應該要苦民所苦，具體保障、具體承諾，謝謝大家。"],["主席：接下來請賴香伶委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":223,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","王婉諭","賴香伶","林為洲","吳玉琴","范雲","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱顯智","邱臣遠","賴士葆"],"page_start":6,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002","1129402_00003","1129402_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"最低工資法─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1129402_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.130968750000001,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.29159375,"end":191.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.75159375,"end":196.59096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.154,"end":34.255,"text":"最低工資法是時代力量長期以來的核心主張不論是在第9屆又或者是第10屆的國會時代力量都是第一個領先提出最低工資法草案的政黨這是審查保留的第7條時代力量的訴求非常的清楚也非常的簡單就是希望最低工資的審議會要能夠專業化所以我們主張勞資學三方的人數應該是要1比1比1"},{"start":34.895,"end":56.679,"text":"而且政府部門的參加,不論是政府代表是出席還是列席都不應該成為勞動部拿來壓縮學者專家人數的藉口在審查的時候,勞動部不斷地拿日本和韓國的制度來舉例說日本和韓國的三方機制是勞資和公正方公正方包含了政府官員的代表,三方的人數是相等的"},{"start":57.259,"end":69.168,"text":"結果在時代力量黨團的查證之下找出了日韓的委員名單以及會議記錄發現勞動部根本就是鬼扯一通需提供錯誤的資訊來誤導委員的判斷日本和韓國的審議會勞資學三方的人數都是1比1比1"},{"start":76.633,"end":104.62,"text":"公正方明明只有專家學者根本沒有政府代表也是專家學者這件事對此我們也要嚴厲的譴責勞動部公然說謊欺瞞國會另外 聯動部也承認了他們的審查會的機制是參考日韓的話這部分就應該要比照日本和韓國將專家學者的人數提高到勞方和資方一樣是7比7比7也就是時代力量的主張這才是真正的言行一致同時時代力量黨團也認為"},{"start":105.82,"end":132.427,"text":"最低工資每年調整的幅度應該要不低於消費者物價指數的年增率為什麼最低工資應該要每年調整除了讓勞工分享經濟的果實之外最重要的當然是希望能夠保障邊緣勞工他們的薪水的實質購買力不會因為物價上漲物價高漲的關係讓錢變得越來越薄變相的反而讓薪水是倒退縮的讓他們的生活越來越辛苦"},{"start":132.907,"end":153.323,"text":"所以我們認為應該要讓最低工資法的條幅和消費者物價指數清楚的結合和掛鉤至少至少要維持弱勢勞工的購買能力這是政府應該最做到的最基本的工作最基本的保障也是勞工朋友最卑微的請求而不是像現在行政院的版本大玩文字遊戲"},{"start":154.164,"end":182.053,"text":"不論是因參採又或者是得參採都只是參考用完全沒有實質的強制性也沒有拘束力從保障勞工的角度出發立法院本來就可以做得更多也應該要做得更多所以要請大家來支持時代力量黨團的版本讓我們勞資學三方是1比1比1的比例同時讓最低工資的條幅應該要超過GPI的調整指數讓我們大家真正能夠一起來捍衛弱勢勞工的權利捍衛邊緣勞工的權利"},{"start":184.094,"end":190.159,"text":"讓大家不再那麼辛苦也應該所有的黨團都應該要苦民所苦具體來保障具體來承諾謝謝大家接下來請賴香林委員"}]}},{"id":"148989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a885061a5d8688b88c1dee738bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a0322f35072de26b2e24c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"09:43:07 - 09:46:47","影片長度":"00:03:40","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":220,"end_time":"2023-12-12T09:46:47+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T09:43:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":30,"blocks":[["柯委員建銘：（9時43分）主席、各位委員同仁。我剛才在台下仔細聽各黨發言，非常驚訝發現，大家不知道在說什麼，不停會的目的和能夠做到的事情根本沒有關聯性。第一個，有關於停會的事情，我在立法院三十年來，每次要選舉前一定有停會，即提前休會，為什麼？因為大家都知道大家要回去選舉了，所以過去大概有三個禮拜，也有15天，也有二個禮拜，這次是提前11天而已。這在一個多月前已經朝野協商，那時候國民黨和我們是站在同一個立場上來看待這個事情，只有民眾黨和時代力量反對。今天我剛才在聽他們的反對理由，事實上也非常荒謬，他說要嚴審法案，有關法案，昨天還在審原住民身分法，那個可能會過，未來所有法案都要經過朝野協商，沒有一個會過。所謂總預算，我們當然希望總預算趕快處理，提前休會以前，在下禮拜二最後一天的時候，我們早就安排好總預算要如何處理，而且昨天已經開始協商。很遺憾，昨天國民黨有一些不愉快，待會我們再來協商，這是第一點。","剛才邱臣遠委員在講營業及非營業基金，營業及非營業基金到目前都還沒有審完，哪有可能？審完還要經過一個月！講得非常清楚。所有法案也是一樣，所有該通過的法案我們都全部安排好了，所有法案我們都非常有秩序在排，包括今天程序委員會我們也會再排。現在比較重大的法案就是房屋稅條例，至於所得稅扣除額要不要處理？因為還沒到一個月，這個部分我們也可以討論，其他法案如揭弊者保護法，委員會都還沒審。我想講話要講真的，你身為一個立法委員，委員會都還沒審，說什麼到月底可以處理這個法案！然後時代力量還在指責說看誰要提前休會，老是用這種言不由衷的方式，用作秀、抹黑來處理立法院的事情，本席非常反對。","大家講話要講真的，尤其我今天在這裡要談的是，時代力量和民眾黨所提的，哪一點我們沒有做到？你們的要求根本是不可能的事情！尤其是現在大家都很清楚，所有委員會都安排考察，就算開會開到31日也是都在考察，想盡題目考察，委員會幾乎是在停擺狀態下，所以在這個地方本席要很清楚地表示。至於有關總預算本來就應該要好好協商的部分，今天下午我們繼續協商，待會我們也可以再談，我們希望能夠如期完成所有的預算及法案，請大家不要再欺騙國人、講假的話，好不好？"],["主席：報告院會，現有時代力量黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團分別提出修正之提議，請議事人員一併宣讀提議內容。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":6,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","邱顯智","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","柯建銘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n本院民進黨黨團，鑑於本院各屆為立法委員選舉或總統選舉，因參加選舉或助選活動，經院會同\n意停止召開會議一段期間，已為議事成例；第七屆、第八屆及第九屆為立法委員改選與總統大\n選，亦停止召開院會及委員會約三週，爰依議事先例建請自 112年12月20日（星期三）至12月31\n日（星期日）停開院會及委員會，112年12月18日（星期一）加開院會，與12月15日（星期五）\n及12月19日（星期二）為同一次會議。是否有當？敬請公決─ 通過─","agenda_id":"1129402_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.549093750000001,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.98346875,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.552843750000001,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.715968750000002,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.16721875,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.49596875,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.52096875,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.38159375,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.11971875,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.86221875,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.44846875,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.43971875,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.88659375,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.30409375,"end":35.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.49784375,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.57784375,"end":39.197843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.97409375,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.627843750000004,"end":49.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.01471875,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.74846875,"end":55.195343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.330343750000004,"end":59.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.22409375,"end":62.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.75534375,"end":66.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.75034375,"end":69.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.06221875,"end":71.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.45846875000001,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.07409375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.76096875,"end":83.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":84.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.92471875000001,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.45596875000001,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.18971875000001,"end":93.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.73284375,"end":99.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.25159375000001,"end":101.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.92221875000001,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.12034375,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.39409375000001,"end":110.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.72659375,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.64596875000001,"end":117.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.56534375000001,"end":119.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.64096875000001,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.76284375,"end":126.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.01534375000001,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.36096875,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.67284375,"end":131.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.41534375,"end":133.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.54596875000001,"end":134.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.50346875,"end":139.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":143.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.07596875000002,"end":146.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.67471875,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.99471875,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.08721875,"end":156.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.33971875,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.51659375,"end":161.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.53721875000002,"end":165.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.84471875,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.39721875,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.21971875,"end":171.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.97034375,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.52721875,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.94846875000002,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.88034375,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.23034375,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.47471875000002,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.89221875,"end":187.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.06909375,"end":189.52034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.58,"end":34.876,"text":"主席、各位委員同仁我剛才在台下仔細聽各黨發言發現大家我非常驚訝大家不知道在說什麼完全你要演員會的目的和能夠做到的事情根本沒有關聯性第一個有關於有關庭會的事情你有發現我在這裡30年來每次要選以前一定有庭會"},{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- 09:42:57","影片長度":"00:03:14","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":194,"end_time":"2023-12-12T09:42:57+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T09:39:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":25,"blocks":[["邱委員臣遠：（9時39分）謝謝主席、大院所有同仁以及全國國人同胞。今天民進黨黨團提出提前結束會期投入選舉的提案，預計要來進行相關的表決。台灣民眾黨在這邊重申我們的立場，我們堅決反對提前停會，因為立法院第10屆還有非常多的法案沒有完成立法的工作，我想這樣子的行為無疑是對選民的不負責任。自11月7號民進黨立法院黨團在程序委員會提出提前停會的案子，民眾黨黨團一直以來的態度就是堅決反對以選舉作為提前停會的理由，這是對選民不負責任的態度。","台灣民眾黨目前的4位不分區立委都投入區域立委的選舉，我們認為好的政治文化應該要重新建立，負責任的政治態度是對選民的民意回應。對於立法委員的職責，最重要的就是審查政府的預算以及推動福國利民的法案，相關的選舉工作當然非常重要，但是國人必須要看清楚所有的立法委員在立法院的表現以及他們對於法案及預算監督的力道，來作為他們是否適合連任的相關依據。","台灣民眾黨黨團始終堅信負責任的政治文化應當重新建立，儘管不良的政治慣例已經深植過去傳統的政黨，我們民眾黨仍然堅持致力改變，從嚴格遵循議事程序，透過理性、務實、中道的問政風格，重新建立新的政治文化，確保立法院的正常運作，對於民眾生活密切相關的各項法案，譬如房屋稅條例修正草案，以及延宕多年的揭弊者保護法等等，這些未竟之功，我們知道立法院會期結束之後屆期不連續，必須要重新開始。我們不希望相關的法案前功盡棄，所以在法定會期12月31號以前，我們認為應該要保留時間繼續嚴審相關的預算跟法案。對於中央政府總預算，我們希望能夠儘快重新啟動朝野協商，對於營業及非營業附屬單位預算，這次看起來時間也不太夠，所以我們有提出相關的修正動議，希望可以在法定的會期內把未竟之功──待審的法案跟相關的預算案儘速加速審查。","我們再次重申台灣民眾黨反對提前停會，後續在總預算的審議上面，我們也呼籲各黨團堅守財政紀律，體現對立法程序的尊重。在第10屆第8會期最後一個階段，讓朝野可以共同為國家來努力，回應我們的廣大民意，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請柯建銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":6,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","邱顯智","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","柯建銘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n本院民進黨黨團，鑑於本院各屆為立法委員選舉或總統選舉，因參加選舉或助選活動，經院會同\n意停止召開會議一段期間，已為議事成例；第七屆、第八屆及第九屆為立法委員改選與總統大\n選，亦停止召開院會及委員會約三週，爰依議事先例建請自 112年12月20日（星期三）至12月31\n日（星期日）停開院會及委員會，112年12月18日（星期一）加開院會，與12月15日（星期五）\n及12月19日（星期二）為同一次會議。是否有當？敬請公決─ 通過─","agenda_id":"1129402_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":55.110968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.46534375,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.43784375,"end":78.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.88346875,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.93159375,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.23096875,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.07846875000001,"end":110.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.86596875000001,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.43471875,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.66596875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.50971875,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.94409375000001,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.88846875000002,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.25846875000002,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.09784375,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.10784375,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.27909375000002,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.46409375000002,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.32846875,"end":179.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.95221875000001,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.11221875,"end":185.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.57159375,"end":191.19096875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.138,"end":35.06,"text":"謝謝主席以及大院所有同仁以及全國國人同胞今天民進黨團提出提前結束會期投入選舉的提案預計要來進行相關的表決台灣民眾黨在這邊重申我們立場我們堅決反對提前停會因為立法院第10屆還有非常多的法案沒有完成立法的工作"},{"start":35.66,"end":54.76,"text":"我想這樣子的行為無疑是對選民的不負責任自11月7號民進黨立法院黨團在程序委員會提出提前停會的案子民眾黨團一直以來的態度我們就是堅決反對以選舉作為前提停會的理由這是對選民不負責任的態度"},{"start":55.521,"end":78.314,"text":"那台灣民眾黨目前的四位不分區立委也都投入區域立委的選舉我們認為好的政治文化應該要重新建立負責任的政治態度是對選民的民意回應那對於立法委員的職責最重要的就是審查政府的預算以及推動扶國立民的法案對於相關的"},{"start":80.49,"end":94.768,"text":"選舉的工作當然非常的重要但是國人必須要看清楚所有的立法委員在立法院的表現以及他們對於法案以及預算監督的力道來作為他們是否適合連任的相關依據"},{"start":96.01,"end":122.804,"text":"台灣民眾黨團始終堅信負責任的政治文化應當重新建立儘管不良的政治慣例已經升值過去傳統的政黨我們民眾黨仍然堅持致力改變從嚴格遵循議事程序透過理性、務實、忠道的問政風格重新建立新的政治文化確保立法院的正常運作對於民眾生活密切相關的各項法案譬如房屋稅"},{"start":124.185,"end":138.092,"text":"條例的修正草案以及延宕多年的接避者保護法等等這些未盡之功我們知道立法院會期結束之後藉其不連續必須要重新開始我們不希望相關的法案還會前功盡棄"},{"start":139.252,"end":166.527,"text":"所以在法定的會期12月31號以前我們認為應該要保留相關的時間繼續來去嚴審相關的預算跟法案我們對於相關中央政府總預算的協商我們希望能夠盡快的來去重新啟動朝野的協商對營業、非營業、附屬單位預算這次看起來時間也不太夠所以我們有提出相關的修正動議希望可以在法定的會期內把相關的未竟之工"},{"start":167.607,"end":190.37,"text":"帶審了法案跟相關的預算案,儘速的加速審查我們再次重申,台灣民眾黨反對提前停會後續在總預算的審議上面,我們也呼籲各黨團堅守財政紀律,體現對立法程序的尊重在這個第10屆的第8會期最後一個階段,讓我們朝野可以共同為我們國家來努力回應我們的廣大名義,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8dc854433a885061f06c3fa0580477d438bfad12d9b8df86c986728e607a0322433df83796df9fb25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"曾銘宗","委員發言時間":"09:36:23 - 09:39:35","影片長度":"00:03:12","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":192,"end_time":"2023-12-12T09:39:35+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T09:36:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":20,"blocks":[["曾委員銘宗：（9時36分）大會主席副院長、各位同仁大家好。今天第一個案子是要討論立法院到底要不要停會，基本上國民黨黨團主張要進行協商，大家同意之後再來做相關的安排。我強力反對等一下民進黨黨團要強力表決通過這個案子，所以我希望大家有一個共識要休會再來休會，假設沒有這個共識，我主張就不要休會，繼續審查重要的法案跟113年度的公務預算，這是第一點說明。","第二點，國民黨黨團本來希望昨天開始進行朝野協商，讓113年度的總預算儘快完成三讀、儘快完成法定程序，但是昨天發生一個非常誇張的事，我們廖婉汝委員因為如同我在委員會問到不管內政部、國防部、國安會到底中共是否介選，但是這些部會首長講不出具體的個案，所以提出一個提案凍結陸委會的預算100萬元，結果綠色媒體拿去操作也就算了，民進黨黨團昨天竟然召開記者會，抹黑、抹紅我們相關的同仁，還把地方的候選人找來民進黨黨團開記者會，超級誇張也超級可惡！後來我們黨內的同仁說，國民黨的立委有38席，作為反對黨，不需要這麼委屈，所以我們就退出朝野的協商。今天剛剛柯建銘也講，要不要進行後續的協商，我贊成！但前提是民進黨黨團必須公開道歉！必須公開道歉，我們才會進行後續的預算協商，這是第二點。","第三點，我還是強烈建議，等一下不要強行表決，假設等一下民進黨強行表決，以後每一個預算1,000案、2,000案就來表決，我們奉陪到底！奉陪到底！另外，還有一些重要法案，像囤房稅或者租金特別扣除額，我們也希望能夠儘快通過。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請邱臣遠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":6,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","邱顯智","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","柯建銘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n本院民進黨黨團，鑑於本院各屆為立法委員選舉或總統選舉，因參加選舉或助選活動，經院會同\n意停止召開會議一段期間，已為議事成例；第七屆、第八屆及第九屆為立法委員改選與總統大\n選，亦停止召開院會及委員會約三週，爰依議事先例建請自 112年12月20日（星期三）至12月31\n日（星期日）停開院會及委員會，112年12月18日（星期一）加開院會，與12月15日（星期五）\n及12月19日（星期二）為同一次會議。是否有當？敬請公決─ 通過─","agenda_id":"1129402_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.236593750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.29534375,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.860343750000002,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.543468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.50909375,"end":19.656593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.23034375,"end":21.664718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.17096875,"end":23.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.664093750000003,"end":27.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.840968750000002,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.96284375,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.549093750000004,"end":34.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.080343750000004,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.05034375,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.31596875,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.11284375,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.79596875,"end":46.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.74096875,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.057218750000004,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.44096875,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.415343750000005,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.14471875,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.81096875,"end":58.587218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.890968750000006,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.30846875,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.540343750000005,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.26159375,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.58596875,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.72471875000001,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.86784375,"end":72.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":74.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.17534375000001,"end":75.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.09909375000001,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.45284375,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.35971875,"end":84.01784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.85659375,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.10096875,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.02034375000001,"end":98.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.46284375,"end":99.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.15034375,"end":104.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.83721875,"end":109.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.20784375000001,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.66284375000001,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.09596875000001,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.24721875,"end":130.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.67721875,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.90846875,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.01784375,"end":138.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.99659375000002,"end":139.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.58284375,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.45159375,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.63284375,"end":146.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.40034375000002,"end":148.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":152.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.71159375000002,"end":154.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.61846875,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.12846875,"end":159.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.49534375000002,"end":161.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.87471875,"end":164.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.56221875,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.77721875,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.71784375000001,"end":169.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.55284375000002,"end":172.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.26971875,"end":174.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.36221875,"end":176.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.79659375,"end":177.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.34909375,"end":179.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.8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- 09:36:10","影片長度":"00:02:59","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"date":"2023-12-12","duration":179,"end_time":"2023-12-12T09:36:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-12T09:33:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":14,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（9時33分）主席、各位同仁。時代力量黨團要再次嚴正重申我們堅決反對立法院提前停會的立場，第一、這個會期最重要的事情就是總預算案，雖然總預算案的審查正在如火如荼的進行，但因為昨日國民黨已撤出黨團協商，總預算能不能如期通過還不確定。然而大家更不要忘記，立法院此次討論的只是公務預算，我們還有附屬單位預算是完全沒有時間來處理的，總支出高達將近7億的附屬單位預算，規模遠比基金預算來得龐大，卻不受國會監督。立法委員最重要的職責之一就是為人民把關他們辛辛苦苦的納稅錢，民進黨黨團現在卻要提前停會去選舉，放著基金預算不審，讓行政院把錢花完了再給下一屆國會審，這樣人民可以接受嗎？","另外，立法院也有許多重大的法案還沒有完成審查，像蔡英文政府承諾的、時力黨團也高度關注的揭弊者保護法、不法關說罪、不法餽贈罪、棄保潛逃罪、集會遊行法等等，都沒有任何進展，還有像是囤房稅2.0、租金支出列稅額以及原住民立委關心的原住民族保留地管理利用條例等等，也只差臨門一腳就能夠通過，現在卻因為即將停會的關係，我們很擔心所有法案都將前功盡棄，下一屆只能重新再來過，所以無論如何，立法院的法定會期就是依照憲法的規定，從9月到12月底，這是人民課以立委最基本的責任，這個責任和義務不應該因為立委要跑選舉而有改變。","所以今天時力黨團也正式提出修正動議，我們要求立法院應該要開會到12月底。這個修正動議基本上就是憲法所規定的，民進黨、國民黨的立委要選舉就自己請假，不要剝奪其他委員、其他黨團監督和質詢政府的權利，也不應該剝奪審查預算這種國會議員最重要的職責和權利。","時力黨團重申，我們強烈反對和抗議立法院提前休會，請國人好好看著是哪一些立委自己幫自己放假，支持這樣的停會案。以上。"],["主席：報告院會，現在截止發言登記。","接下來請曾銘宗委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":6,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-11","speakers":["游錫堃","蔡其昌","邱顯智","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","柯建銘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-12"],"gazette_id":"1129402","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129402_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n本院民進黨黨團，鑑於本院各屆為立法委員選舉或總統選舉，因參加選舉或助選活動，經院會同\n意停止召開會議一段期間，已為議事成例；第七屆、第八屆及第九屆為立法委員改選與總統大\n選，亦停止召開院會及委員會約三週，爰依議事先例建請自 112年12月20日（星期三）至12月31\n日（星期日）停開院會及委員會，112年12月18日（星期一）加開院會，與12月15日（星期五）\n及12月19日（星期二）為同一次會議。是否有當？敬請公決─ 通過─","agenda_id":"1129402_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4822187500000001,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.24909375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":49.187843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.508468750000006,"end":85.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":106.56284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.61346875000001,"end":107.00159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.15346875,"end":110.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.66346875,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.52346875,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.09221875,"end":126.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.91409375,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.24596875,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.08971875,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.23721875,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.10159375,"end":172.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.59471875,"end":173.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.32034375,"end":175.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.98659375,"end":176.35784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.029,"end":16.722,"text":"主席、各位同仁12例案黨團要再次嚴正的重申我們堅決反對立法院提前停會的立場第一這個會期最重要的事情就是總預算案那雖然總預算案的審查正在如火如荼的進行"},{"start":17.783,"end":41.491,"text":"因為昨日國民黨已撤出黨團協商總預算能不能如期通過還不確定然而大家更不要忘記立法院此次討論只是公寓預算我們還有附屬單位預算是完全沒有時間來處理的總支出高達將近7億的附屬單位預算規模遠比基金預算來得龐大卻不受國會監督"},{"start":42.831,"end":62.444,"text":"立法委員最重要的職責之一就是為人民把關他們辛辛苦苦的納稅錢民進黨團現在卻要提前停會去選舉放著基金預算不審讓行政院把錢花完了再給下一屆國會審這樣人民可以接受嗎"},{"start":63.385,"end":83.983,"text":"另外 立法院也有許多重大的法案還沒有完成審查像蔡英文政府承諾的十一黨團也高度關注的接避者保護法不法關說罪、不法饋贈罪、棄保潛逃罪、集會遊行法等等都沒有任何的進展還有像是囤房稅2.0"},{"start":85.825,"end":105.635,"text":"租金支出劣稅額以及原住民立委關心的原住民保留地管理利用條例等等也只差林門一角就能夠通過現在卻因為即將停會的關係我們很擔心所有的法案都將前功盡棄下一屆只能重新再來過"},{"start":107.256,"end":135.778,"text":"所以不論如何立法院的法定會期就是依照憲法的規定從9月到12月底這是人民科與立法最基本的責任這個責任和義務不應該因為立委要跑選舉而有改變所以今天十一黨團也正式提出修正動議我們要求立法院應該要開會到12月底"},{"start":136.38,"end":153.976,"text":"那這個修正動議基本上就是憲法所規定的那民進黨、國民黨的立委要選舉就自己請假不要剝奪其他委員或其他黨團監督和質詢政府的權利也不應該要"},{"start":156.738,"end":176.156,"text":"剝奪這種審查預算這種國會議員最重要的職責的權利十一黨團重申強烈反對和抗議立法院提前休會請國人好好看著是哪些立委自己幫自己放假支持這樣的停會案以上"}]}},{"id":"15349","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15349","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609f2e27e16159b42999b5fa2f296a9353446d53a332764a53533f41e9ea33f1ecb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第11次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員萬美玲等19人、委員鄭麗文等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員魯明哲等19人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等20人、委員羅致政等19人、委員陳明文等18人、委員溫玉霞等17人、委員萬美玲等22人、委員王美惠等20人、委員莊競程等22人、委員馬文君等16人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等18人及委員洪孟楷等17人分別擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」案；本院委員游毓蘭等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員張育美等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案；本院委員林德福等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百八十五條之三條文修正草案」，請審議案等20案。 二、12月8日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 三、12月12日下午5時至6時為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-12","start_time":"2023-12-12T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議","id":"院會-10-8-11","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":11},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-12T17:03:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":30781,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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"end":4304.94,"text":"台灣民眾黨團始終堅信負責任的政治文化應當重新建立儘管不良的政治慣例已經升值過去傳統的政黨我們民眾黨仍然堅持致力改變從嚴格遵循議事程序透過理性、務實、忠道的問政風格重新建立新的政治文化確保立法院的正常運作對於民眾生活密切相關的各項法案譬如房屋稅"},{"start":4306.342,"end":4320.243,"text":"條例的修正草案以及延宕多年的接避者保護法等等這些未盡之功我們知道立法院會期結束之後藉其不連續必須要重新開始我們不希望相關的法案還會前功盡棄"},{"start":4321.405,"end":4348.677,"text":"所以在法定的會期12月31號以前我們認為應該要保留相關的時間繼續來去嚴審相關的預算跟法案我們對於相關中央政府總預算的協商我們希望能夠盡快的來去重新啟動朝野的協商對營業、非營業、附屬單位預算這次看起來時間也不太夠所以我們有提出相關的修正動議希望可以在法定的會期內把相關的未竟之工"},{"start":4349.457,"end":4372.489,"text":"待審的法案跟相關的預算案 儘速的加速審查我們再次重申 台灣民眾黨反對提前停會後續在總預算的審議上面 我們也呼籲各黨團堅守財政紀律 體現對立法程序的尊重在這個第10屆的第8會期最後一個階段讓我們朝野可以共同為我們國家來努力回應我們的廣大名義 謝謝"},{"start":4378.45,"end":4406.807,"text":"接下來請柯建民委員主席各位委員同仁我剛才在台下仔細聽各黨發言發現大家我非常驚訝大家不知道在說什麼完全你要演員會的目的"},{"start":4407.861,"end":4422.947,"text":"和能夠做到的事情根本沒有關聯性第一個有關於永安庭會的事情立法院在這30年來每次要選以前一定有庭會提前休會"},{"start":4426.38,"end":4454.426,"text":"那為什麼呢?因為大家都知道大家要回去選舉了所以過去大概有三個禮拜也有15天也有兩個禮拜這次是提前11天而已這個在一個多月以前已經超越學章那時候國民黨他們站在同一個立場上來看待這個事情只有民眾黨和時代議員反對那今天我在聽他們的反對理由事實上非常荒謬他說要嚴審法案"},{"start":4456.462,"end":4485.684,"text":"法案昨天還在審,原住民生活法,那個可能會過未來所有的法案沒有一個會過,要經過朝夕期間沒有一個會過所謂總預算,我們當然希望總預算趕快處理在期間休會以前,在下禮拜二最後一天的時候,我們早就安排好總預算要如何,昨天已經開始協商但很遺憾昨天國務黨有一些不愉快,待會我們再來協商這是第一點"},{"start":4486.67,"end":4515.041,"text":"那剛才民眾黨當然邱正元委員在講說什麼要營業籍費營業基金這種不肯營業的費營業基金到目前很多還沒審完哪有可能審完還要經過一個月所以大家都講得非常清楚那所謂法案也是一樣嘛所以我該公布的法案哪一個我們都全部安排好了請看我們到所有的法案都是我們非常有志氣在排包括今天成績委會我們要在排"},{"start":4515.765,"end":4537.547,"text":"那現在比較重大的法案就是防護稅防護稅條例至於守護稅扣除了要不要處理呢?因為還沒到一個月,這個部分你也可以討論其他我不知道什麼接避者,接避者現在委員都還沒審我想講話要講真的委員都還沒審,你成為一個立法委員,委員都還沒審,說什麼到議題可以處理這些法案"},{"start":4539.505,"end":4556.715,"text":"然後Saidhai‧Tahovecahe要指責說看誰誰要提前修繪老是用這種方式原不由用這種方式要用作秀抹黑來處理逆反的事情本席非常反對大家講要講真實的尤其今天我在這裡談的就是說"},{"start":4558.359,"end":4575.627,"text":"你們實際上和民眾黨所提的哪一點我們沒有做到呢你們要求的根本不可能的事情尤其現在大家都很清楚所有委員會都要來考察你就算開會到31號也是都要來考察然後詳盡題目考察"},{"start":4606.81,"end":4613.297,"text":"報告委員會現有時代力量黨團、台灣民眾黨團分別提出修正動議的提案請議事人員一併宣讀提案內容"},{"start":4614.833,"end":4640.4,"text":"時代力量黨團修正動議本院時代力量黨團有鑒於諸多蔡英文政府已承諾之重大法案尚未完成立法及修法工作如接避者保護法、不法關說與不法饋贈罪、棄保檢討罪、集會遊行法等進行本會期一開會至憲法規定之會期2023年12月31日結束為止是否有當進行公決"},{"start":4642.02,"end":4658.297,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議本院台灣民眾黨黨團鑒於憲法第68條規定立法院會期每年兩次自行集會第一次自2月至5月底第二次自9月至12月底必要時得延長之"},{"start":4659.217,"end":4681.185,"text":"進行本第8會期將進行至112年12月31日至本會期應將113年中央政府總預算案及逢稅條例修正草案、最低工資法草案、公投不在籍投票草案、階幣者保護法草案等重點法案三讀通過事後有當進行公決宣讀完畢議題案"},{"start":4687.25,"end":4694.585,"text":"我們以提案先後順序來進行處理先處理時代力量黨團修正動議提案請議事人員按鈴7分鐘並分發表決卡請按鈴"},{"start":5131.24,"end":5147.531,"text":"好 按鈴時間已經到請問各位同仁有沒有尚未拿到表決卡好 都有表決卡現在針對時代力量黨團修正之提議進行表決民進黨團、時代力量黨團要求記名表決時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":5157.244,"end":5185.195,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、事項：本院司法及法制委員會報告"},{"start":5187.688,"end":5215.666,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告"},{"start":5221.857,"end":5239.875,"text":"表決結果出席68人、贊成6人、反對50人、棄權12人、贊成者少數時代力量黨團修正提案提議不通過現在針對台灣民眾黨黨團修正之提議進行表決民進黨團、時代力量黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":5244.821,"end":5264.293,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告"},{"start":5282.91,"end":5285.796,"text":"等21人、委員邰智英等21人、委員邰智英等21人、委員邰智英等21人、委員邰智英等"},{"start":5313.581,"end":5340.615,"text":"了結結果出席68人、贊成6人、反對50人、棄權12人、贊成者少數台灣民眾黨黨團修正之提議不通過群議會對本案及民黨團所提之內容有異議沒有異議本案就照案通過做如下決議本院自112年12月20日星期三至12月31日星期日停開院會及委員會"},{"start":5342.357,"end":5359.298,"text":"112年12月18日星期一加開院會與12月15日星期五及12月19日星期二視為同一次會議繼續進行討論事項第七案最低工資法草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":5360.782,"end":5377.612,"text":"本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會分別於111年5月19日、112年10月18日舉行全體委員會議審查本案分別由林兆潔委員為州、邱兆潔委員探員擔任主席邀請提案委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":5378.893,"end":5401.312,"text":"並請勞動部部長徐明春及相關人員列席說明並備諮詢原會員於聽徐說明期詢答後進行逐條討論,完成本案審查原清決議並按領據審查報告提報院會討論本案與院會進行二讀前須交由黨團協商院會討論本案時,由邱肇景、袁泰源補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":5405.167,"end":5411.499,"text":"請召集委員、邱委員、泰委員補充說明邱委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議需叫黨團協商"},{"start":5412.816,"end":5435.212,"text":"另外委員蘇志斌等、委員莊敬成等、委員李昆哲等分別提案經第8會期第6次、第7次會議決定經複二讀與相關提案併案協商委員賴瑞榮等、委員劉建國等、委員王美惠等分別提案經第8會期第7次會議決議自委員會抽出經複二讀與相關提案併案協商本案現已完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":5438.12,"end":5447.579,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論實踐112年12月7日星期四下午30地點紅樓302會議室協商主題最低工資法草案"},{"start":5448.628,"end":5474.18,"text":"寫章結論一、寫章通過條文第13條如附件二、照行政院提案通過第1條、第3條、第4條、第5條、第10條、第16條及第17條三、不予採納、委員吳玉琴等18人提案第11條四、保留送院會處理一、第7條、第9條、第12條二、委員江永昌等17人提案第20條、委員徐志榮等25人、委員林維周等16人提案第15條"},{"start":5475.16,"end":5500.639,"text":"委員范雲等17人、時代力量黨團提案第16條委員蔣萬安等18人、委員廖國棟等16人提案第17條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條五、區域經照審查會審查結果通過六、條次及援引條次授權議事人員調整七、檢護本案立法說明一份八、台灣民眾黨黨團附帶決議一項保留送院會處理"},{"start":5502.813,"end":5519.276,"text":"本案院會進行處理時,寫上通過部分,宣讀後均予以通過保留部分軍戰保留保留部分院會進行處理前,由各黨團推派一人依時代力量黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團順序輪流發言每人發言時間3分鐘,發言完畢後,各該保留部分均不再發言"},{"start":5527.018,"end":5552.634,"text":"並依上開黨團順序進行各項各保留條文黨團版本之處理協商主持人 游錫坤、蔡吉昌協商代表 柯建銘、劉世芳、莊瑞雄、吳育群、曾明中、謝一鳳、李德維、賴香林、邱承遠、張其路、邱顯智、陳家華、黃婉玉宣讀完畢請願會對以上協商結論有依沒有依本案主條討論時進一協商結論處理"},{"start":5556.011,"end":5567.371,"text":"黃定宇委員聲明對剛才的表決與民進黨黨團意見一致列入公報紀錄最低公知法草案請宣讀名稱最低公知法宣讀完畢照審查會名稱通過第一條"},{"start":5568.427,"end":5588.664,"text":"第一條為確保勞工合理之最低工資提高勞工及其家庭之生活水準促進勞資和諧特制令本法最低工資事項依本法之規定本法為規定者適用勞動基準法及其他相關法律之規定宣讀完畢照行政院提案條文通過第二條"},{"start":5589.758,"end":5614.477,"text":"第二條 本法制主管機關在中央為勞動部、在職鄉市為職鄉市政府、在縣市為縣市政府宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第三條第三條 本法制適用對象為適用勞動基準法之勞工本法所生勞工、雇主、工資及事業單位之定義依勞動基準法第二條規定宣讀完畢照行政院提案條文通過第四條"},{"start":5616.468,"end":5641.393,"text":"第4條最低工資分為每月最低工資及每小時最低工資宣讀完畢照行政院提案條文通過第5條第5條勞工與僱儲雙方議定之工資不得低於最低工資其議定之工資低於最低工資者以本法所定之最低工資為其工資數額宣讀完畢照行政院提案條文通過第6條"},{"start":5642.984,"end":5654.743,"text":"第6條 中央主管金關應設最低工資審議會以下簡稱審議會審議最低工資宣傳完畢照審查會條文通過第7條保留第8條"},{"start":5657.884,"end":5685.166,"text":"第八條 審議會委員任期為二年 期滿得續聘前條第一項第一款是第四款 所定委員辭職或出缺者由原推薦機關或團體重新推薦經中央主管機關聘聘 任期至原任期屆滿之日為止前條第一項第五款 所定委員辭職或出缺者由中央主管機關另行聘聘 任期至原任期屆滿之日為止"},{"start":5686.647,"end":5694.372,"text":"審議會委員軍委吳啟之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第9條保留委員吳玉琴等提案第11條不予採納第10條"},{"start":5696.96,"end":5724.151,"text":"第10條審議會應與每年第三季召開會議但依第13條第二項規定召開者不在此限最低工資之審議應有委員二分之一以上出席使得開會審議未能達成共識者得經出席委員過半數同意亦決之審議會委員應親自出席不得委任他人代理宣讀完畢再好請這件提案條文通過第11條"},{"start":5727.765,"end":5743.894,"text":"第11條 中央主管機關應於審議會會議結束後30日內於該機關網站公開會議資料及記錄宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第12條保留委員范雲等提案第10條不予採納第13條"},{"start":5745.799,"end":5770.992,"text":"第13條 中央主管機關應於最低工資審議通過之次日期之日內報請行政院核定後公告實施行政院不予核定者中央主管機關應於收到不予核定函之日期30日內在召開審議會進行審議並將審議結果依前項規定報請行政院予以核定宣讀完畢照寫上條文通過第14條"},{"start":5772.301,"end":5786.386,"text":"第14條經行政院核定之最低工資除審議會任由另定實施日期必要並經行政院衡定準位自次年1月1日實施宣傳完畢照審查會條文通過第15條"},{"start":5787.813,"end":5811.119,"text":"第15條 中央處管機關議第13條第一項規定公告實施最低工資前 原依勞動基準法公告之基本工資繼續有效本法實行後第一次公告之最低工資數額不得低於本法實行前最後一次依勞動基準法公告之基本工資數額宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第16條"},{"start":5812.284,"end":5820.946,"text":"第16條最低工資之監督及檢查使用勞動基準法監督與檢查及其他相關事項之規定宣討完畢"},{"start":5821.906,"end":5843.764,"text":"照行政院提案條文通過,委員江永昌等提案第17條、實在力量黨團提案第13條、委員蔣萬安等、委員廖國棟等實在力量黨團分別提案第14條、委員江永昌等提案第18條、委員蔣萬安等、委員廖國棟等分別提案第15條、委員江永昌等、實在力量黨團分別提案第15條、委員蔣萬安等、委員廖國棟等分別提案第16條均不予採納"},{"start":5844.805,"end":5856.972,"text":"委員江永昌等提案第20條、委員徐志榮等委員林惟洲等分別提案第15條、委員范雲等質量黨團分別提案第16條、委員蔣萬安等委員廖國棟等分別提案第17條、台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條保留第17條"},{"start":5862.711,"end":5882.612,"text":"第17條 勞工與雇主雙方議定之工資低於最低工資者由直轄市縣市主管機關主、雇主或事業單位新台幣2萬元以上、100萬元下罰還並得依事業單位規模違反人數或違反情節加重其罰還制法定罰還最高額二分之一"},{"start":5883.572,"end":5911.883,"text":"經依前項規定處以發還者﹐指消失限事主管機關﹐因公佈該事業單位或事業組織名稱﹐負責人姓名﹐處分日期及發還金額﹐並限期令其改善﹐其其未改善者應按次處罰﹐指消失限事主管機關才處罰還﹐得審酌與違反行為有關事勞工人數﹐累計違法次數或為依法給付之金額﹐為良罰輕重之基準"},{"start":5912.503,"end":5932.751,"text":"宣讀完畢照行政院提案條文通過第18條第18條本法實行後其他法規關於基本公資制規定適用本法最低公資制規定宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員姜文昌等提案第23條、委員蔣萬安等提案第21條、時代力量黨團提案第20條、台灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條均不予採納第19條"},{"start":5936.738,"end":5955.814,"text":"第19條本法實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過保安委員會現在繼續處理保留部分依協商結論保留部分處理前由各黨團推派一人發言現在進行各黨團推派之代表發言首先請王婉玉委員發言"},{"start":5968.086,"end":5994.187,"text":"最低工資法是時代力量長期以來的核心主張不論是在第9屆又或者是第10屆的國會時代力量都是第一個領先提出最低工資法草案的政黨這是審查保留的第7條時代力量的訴求非常的清楚也非常的簡單就是希望最低工資的審議會要能夠專業化所以我們主張勞資學三方的人數應該是要1比1比1"},{"start":5994.827,"end":6022.517,"text":"而且政府部門的參加不論是政府代表是出席還是列席都不應該成為勞動部拿來壓縮學者專家人數的藉口在審查的時候勞動部不斷地拿日本和韓國的制度來舉例說日本和韓國的三方機制是勞資和公正方公正方包含了政府官員的代表三方的人數是相等的結果在時代力量黨團的查證之下找出了日韓的委員名單以及會議記錄發現勞動部根本"},{"start":6024.138,"end":6043.987,"text":"根本就是鬼扯一通,蓄意提供錯誤的資訊來誤導委員的判斷日本和韓國的審議會勞資學三方的人數都是1比1比1公正報明明只有專家學者根本沒有政府代表也是專家學者這件事對此我們也要嚴厲的譴責勞動部公然說謊欺瞞國會"},{"start":6047.449,"end":6064.535,"text":"另外聯合國部也承認了他們的審查會的機制是參考日韓的話而這部分就應該要比照日本和韓國將專家學者的人數提高到勞方和資方一樣是7比7比7也就是時代力量的主張這才是真正的言行一致同時時代力量黨團也認為"},{"start":6065.735,"end":6092.379,"text":"最低工資每年調整的幅度應該要不低於消費者物價指數的年增率為什麼最低工資應該要每年調整除了讓勞工分享經濟的果實之外最重要的當然是希望能夠保障邊緣勞工他們的薪水的實質購買力不會因為物價上漲物價高漲的關係讓錢變得越來越薄變相的反而讓薪水是倒退縮的讓他們的生活越來越辛苦"},{"start":6092.839,"end":6116.445,"text":"所以我們認為應該要讓最低工資法的條幅和消費者物價指數清楚的結合和掛鉤至少至少要維持弱勢勞工的購買能力這是政府應該最做到的最基本的工作最基本的保障也是勞工朋友最卑微的請求而不是像現在行政院的版本大玩文字遊戲不論是贏參彩又或者是得參彩"},{"start":6117.125,"end":6141.98,"text":"都只是參考用完全沒有實質的強制性也沒有拘束力從保障勞工的角度出發立法院本來就可以做得更多也應該要做得更多所以要請大家來支持時代力量黨團的版本讓我們勞資學三方是1比1比1的比例同時讓最低工資的條幅應該要超過GPI的調整指數讓我們大家真正能夠一起來捍衛弱勢勞工的權利捍衛邊緣勞工的權利讓大家"},{"start":6144.542,"end":6150.089,"text":"不再那麼辛苦也應該所有的黨團都應該要苦民所苦具體來保障具體來承諾謝謝大家接下來請賴香林委員"},{"start":6169.707,"end":6188.707,"text":"主席、各位委員我想我們要面對的是一個被遺忘了7年的最低工資法要不是賴副總統一聲令下民進黨的黨團或者是勞動部也不會把版本在10天之內送到立院歷經短暫的協商我想我們最低工資法的立法"},{"start":6189.367,"end":6212.06,"text":"雖然有非常多內容上面的不足但是我們還是期待能夠在這個會期可以通過一個延宕7年的立法我想勞動部在2019年是有送了版本到行政院當時的蘇院長跟許部長多次用要收集民間的意見其實是企業的意見來作為推託到現在送進來之後我們看到有幾個部分還是相當的不足"},{"start":6212.56,"end":6236.421,"text":"但我想我們還要先面對今年在9月8號基本工資審議小組裡面對於審議的這個薪資由26400元調漲到27470元勢有為福的上漲那民進黨政府也長期說這幾年來調升了非常多次但是我們要講蔡英文總統自己說要含出3萬元的基本工資請問這個金額實現了嗎還是跳票了"},{"start":6239.764,"end":6264.486,"text":"所以一個喊價式的或者是用動員式的方式來做選舉的開價的這個方式的基本工資是不應該淪為政治上的一個籌碼因此我們強調在未來在修正的這個版本裡面民眾黨的版本很清楚有提出三個方向首先我們還是正視一個基本工資代表的是邊緣弱勢勞工以及相關的這個打工時薪等等的一個基本規格"},{"start":6265.086,"end":6290.415,"text":"他當然是法尊的最基本也是保障最低生活品質的一個象徵所以他必須要有專業的委員來進行審議因此在所謂的審議委員的代表席次裡面我們認為政府部門的代表要降低維持中立性極好那勞方代表、資方代表跟公益代表要佔777席來作為一個比較合理的配比那第二個我們希望整個"},{"start":6291.315,"end":6311.612,"text":"最低工資的條幅能夠不低於重要民生物資的消費物價指數年增率也不可以低於前一年的基本工資這個當然是能夠與時俱進反映通膨以及反映薪資被通膨吃掉的狀況第三個我們期待一個可長可久的制度要讓審議委員不能被架空"},{"start":6312.052,"end":6329.069,"text":"因此在所謂的條幅以及相關的公式裡面其實是可以透過研究小組制定提出相關的公式配比那不是像現在執政黨說有了公式之後未來如果遇到特殊情況反而無法有彈性處理這是一個推諉之詞"},{"start":6329.83,"end":6354.108,"text":"我們應該讓國人相信制度而不是相信個人因此在這次的修法裡面民眾黨的版本包括第7條第9條第12條及第14條有關採購法的部分也一樣期待一個基本法尊都不生存的企業他當然不能參與國家的重要的一些這個投標的這個資格這個是法律上明定也是公益社會應該要期待的這個修法希望大家一起"},{"start":6360.066,"end":6360.486,"text":"很遺憾這一次的這個"},{"start":6384.844,"end":6403.534,"text":"最低工資法雖然今天已經到我們院會要進行刪讀但是這個已經延宕了7年多那我在去年5月份的時候也在未還委員會擔任召委的時候提出排案"},{"start":6405.145,"end":6428.444,"text":"當時也是受到執政黨阻擋理由是行政院版本還在收集資料還沒完成所以不予審議那今天終於因為選舉所以我們看到能夠來這邊刪讀了所以我還是要感慨地說一聲選舉萬歲如果沒有這個選舉"},{"start":6432.304,"end":6456.898,"text":"最低工資法不會在今天刪讀你們都已經執政7年多了但是這個刪讀的版本我們看到行政院的版本還是覺得很遺憾前面幾位黨團在野黨團的發言我們都予以肯定國民黨黨團的版本堅持三個原則第一個原則就是審議委員會的委員"},{"start":6459.954,"end":6466.327,"text":"勞方代表一定要超過資方代表那我們看到行政院的版本"},{"start":6467.581,"end":6495.894,"text":"勞方代表跟資方代表同樣的名額但是如果再加上政府的代表那勞方代表在這個審議委員會裡面還是弱勢所以我們的版本勞方代表一定要大於資方代表但是也不至於會失衡因為還有專家學者這是我們強調的第一點勞方代表大於資方代表有非常具有指標性的意義"},{"start":6497.691,"end":6525.417,"text":"第二點每年調整最低工資行政院版本只是講到要參採CPI消費指數參採什麼意思參考採納也可以不採納那國民黨版本堅持一定要高於CPI的指數調整的幅度這樣才有實質的意義"},{"start":6527.25,"end":6540.067,"text":"第三點違反最低工資法的資方要受到懲罰除了罰款之外還包括在一段的時間內不得參與國家的標案"},{"start":6546.477,"end":6552.42,"text":"這樣的處罰是合情合理竟然執政黨也不同意你要讓這樣違反最低勞資法摳克勞工的這種企業繼續參與國家的採購我們不懂為什麼要反對"},{"start":6576.028,"end":6576.796,"text":"接下來請吳育秦委員"},{"start":6588.051,"end":6606.322,"text":"謝謝副院長11月18號我們未還委員會就審查這個我們這一公知法那也經過兩次的政黨協商剩下4條的一個政黨有不同的意見那就針對不同意見來跟大家表述一下民進黨的一個看法行政院的第7條有關審議會的人數"},{"start":6608.563,"end":6626.354,"text":"主要世界各國對於最低工資的審議委員的成員大概都由勞方、資方跟第三方組成人數多為相同所謂的第三方代表通常是學者專家或政府代表所以目前我們也是延用了繼續延用目前最低基本工資的審議成員的一個組成"},{"start":6628.795,"end":6656.487,"text":"所以希望是在這個學者專家的人數不宜再增加因為連同政府的代表第三方的人數將會超過勞資委員這會將對未來的社會對話功能會模糊化這也是牢固團體認同的一個做法所以請支持民進黨的一個修正動議那第二個是第9條的部分最低工資的審議裡面這個是一個核心的條文因為消費者物價指數的年增率"},{"start":6656.907,"end":6678.195,"text":"是維持勞工必須購買力的一個重要指標所以這個指標我們也絕對認為要考慮所以列為應參採的指標至於得參採的指標應該是以勞僱團體們共具有共識較無爭議的一個為主所以目前有10款那在這個其他政黨裡面提到的是說要訂定調補的樓地板"},{"start":6679.736,"end":6697.075,"text":"若是只針對特定指標來作為處理無法斟酌其他指標及整體社會經濟情勢欠缺彈性所以我們建議是不予增列這個部分所以請支持我們民進黨的一個修正動議那定位第12條的部分"},{"start":6697.515,"end":6712.068,"text":"有關研究小組是這次條文裡面特別有別於基本工資審議的一個機制那研究小組只是一個研究組織它所做成的研究報告跟調整建議主要是提供給最低工資審議會來審查參考之用"},{"start":6714.991,"end":6717.292,"text":"等19人、委員彭麗文等19人、委員彭麗文等19人、委員彭麗文等19人、委員彭麗文"},{"start":6735.283,"end":6752.675,"text":"支持我們民進黨的一個修正動議最後一個是各黨在談論說針對違反最低工資的廠商要排除參加政府的採購法的一個條文我們認為這個部分因為這個法主要是針對最低工資的審議希望來保障"},{"start":6753.355,"end":6770.04,"text":"最低工資、勞工及家庭水準排除違反廠商參加政府採購規範應該回到政府採購法或採購契約規定不要在本法定定所以請支持民進黨修正提案不予採納謝謝委員們"},{"start":6782.569,"end":6791.3,"text":"現在進行保留條文之處理本案宣讀院會所收修正動議條文其餘提案條文均列入公報紀錄請宣讀第7條條文"},{"start":6794.688,"end":6816.739,"text":"時代力量黨團修正動議第7條審議會智委員25人由勞動部部長擔任召集人並為當然委員其餘委員之組成如下一、勞動部代表1人二、經濟部代表1人三、國家發展委員會代表1人四、勞方代表7人五、資方代表7人六、學史專家7人"},{"start":6817.819,"end":6840.446,"text":"前項勞方代表及資方代表分別由全國性勞工及工商之相關團體推薦後由中央主管機關領聘之第一項第六款學者專家由勞動部領聘具有勞工法律社會或經濟相關學士經驗之社會公正人士擔任選議會委員任意性別比例不得少於三分之一"},{"start":6841.626,"end":6865.185,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議第7條選議會致召集人一人並為當然委員由勞動部部長兼任之令制委員24人其組成如下一、勞動部代表一人二、經濟部代表一人三、國家發展委員會一人四、勞方代表7人五、資方代表7人六、學者、專家學者7人"},{"start":6865.985,"end":6888.505,"text":"前向勞方代表及資方代表由相關勞工及工商團體推薦後由勞動部聆聘之第一項第六款之專家學者由勞動部聆聘具有勞工法律、社會經濟、公衛、殘血或壞氣相關學士經驗之社會公正人士擔任本會委員單一性別比例不得多於三分之二"},{"start":6890.493,"end":6917.352,"text":"國民黨黨團修正動議第7條審議會智委員21人由勞動部部長擔任召集人並為擔任委員其餘委員之組成如下以國家發展委員會代表1人、2勞方代表9人、3資方代表7人、4學者專家3人前項勞方代表及資方代表分別由全國性勞工及工商之相關團體推進後由中央主管機關領聘之"},{"start":6918.332,"end":6934.418,"text":"第1項第5款學生專家由中央主管機關領聘之,選議會委員任意性別比例不得少於三分之一民進黨黨團修正動議第7條選議會制委員21人,由勞動部部長擔任召集人並為當然委員"},{"start":6935.939,"end":6965.379,"text":"及與委員之組成如下一、經濟部代表1人二、國家發展委員會代表1人三、勞方代表7人四、資方代表7人五、學者專家4人前項勞方代表及資方代表分別由全國性勞工及工商之相關團體推薦後由中央主管機關聆聘之第一項第五款學者專家由中央主管機關聆聘之選議會委員任意性別比例不得少於三分之一宣讀完畢"},{"start":6970.262,"end":6975.345,"text":"現在表決時代力量黨團修正動議條文民進黨團時代力量黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7029.704,"end":7038.574,"text":"併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會"},{"start":7048.257,"end":7052.16,"text":"表決結果出席70人、贊成2人、反對51人、棄權17人、贊成者少數時代力量黨團修正動議條文不通過現在表決台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文民進黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7134.13,"end":7143.772,"text":"表決結果出席70人、贊成5人、反對51人、棄權14人、贊成者少數修正動議條文不通過現在表決國民黨黨團修正動議條文民進黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7181.271,"end":7208.323,"text":"併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告併案審查行政委員會報告"},{"start":7219.758,"end":7237.626,"text":"了解結果出席71人、贊成15人、反對51人、棄權5人、贊成者少數國民黨修正統一條文不通過請議院會本條照民進黨黨團修正統一條文通過有異議沒有異議第7條照民進黨黨團修正統一條文通過現在進行第9條請宣讀條文"},{"start":7240.368,"end":7268.383,"text":"時代力量黨團修正動議第9條最低工資之決定年度調整幅度不得低於消費者物價指數年增率之漲幅且不得低於前一年最低工資最低工資之擬定並得參採下列資料一、勞動生產力指數年增率二、勞工平均薪資年增率三、國家經濟發展狀況四、國民所得及平均每人所得五、國內生產馬文及成本構成之分配比率"},{"start":7269.224,"end":7282.858,"text":"6、民生物價及生產者物價變動狀況7、各業轉業發展情形及就業狀況8、各業勞工工資9、家庭生活狀況10、最低生活費"},{"start":7284.881,"end":7305.044,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團修正動議第9條最低工資條幅之審議年度調整幅度不得低於中央民生物資消費者物價指數年增率且不得低於前一年最低工資最低工資條幅真理定並得參採下列資料一、勞動生產力指數年增率"},{"start":7305.544,"end":7333.537,"text":"二、勞工平均薪資年增率三、國家經濟發展狀況四、國民所得及平均每日所得五、國內生產毛文及成本構成之分配比率六、短壽物價及民生物價變動狀況七、各業產業發展情形及就業狀況八、各業勞工工資九、家庭收支調查統計十、最低生活費十一、租金年增率等住宿成本十二、就業撫養幣"},{"start":7335.318,"end":7349.633,"text":"前二項所定資料之目的事業主管機關應定期將資料送勞動部會證勞動部應會同第12條規定之研究小組制定前項規定之最低工資調整方式國民黨黨團修戰動議第9條"},{"start":7351.875,"end":7377.259,"text":"最低工資確定令年度調整幅度不得低於消費者物價指數年增率滯漲幅且不得低於前一年最低工資前項訂定並得參採下列資料一、勞動生產力指數年增率二、勞工平均薪資年增率三、國家經濟發展狀況四、國民所得及平均每人所得五、國內生產毛額及成本構成之分配比率"},{"start":7378.099,"end":7383.565,"text":"6、民生物價及生產者物價變動狀況7、個業產業發展情形及就業狀況8、個業勞工工資9、家庭生活狀況10、最低生活費"},{"start":7392.779,"end":7418.366,"text":"民進黨黨團修正動議第9條最低工資之審議應參採消費者物價指數年增率擬定調整幅度前項審議並得參採下列資料一、勞動生產力指數年增率二、勞工平均薪資年增率三、國家經濟發展狀況四、國民所得及平均每日所得五、國內生產毛文及成本構成之分配比率"},{"start":7419.226,"end":7424.59,"text":"6.民生物價及生產者物價變動狀況7."},{"start":7424.59,"end":7427.632,"text":"個業產業發展前行及就業狀況8."},{"start":7427.632,"end":7430.814,"text":"個業勞工工資及家庭收支狀況10."},{"start":7430.814,"end":7440.84,"text":"最低生活費宣讀完畢現在表決時代力量黨團修正動議條文民進黨團、時代力量黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7512.931,"end":7516.814,"text":"表決結果出席71人、贊成3人、反對51人、棄權17人、贊成者少數修正動議條文不通過現在表決台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文民進黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7539.169,"end":7544.174,"text":"陳江華委員聲明對剛才第7條的表決與時代力量黨團意見一致,列入公報紀錄"},{"start":7569.209,"end":7569.329,"text":"大臣﹗"},{"start":7614.639,"end":7618.221,"text":"表決結果出席71人、贊成6人、反對51人、棄權14人、贊成則少數修正動議條文不通過現在表決國民黨黨團修正動議條文民進黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7675.538,"end":7678.617,"text":"等20人、委員孝雄等20人、委員孝雄等20人、委員孝雄等20人、委員孝雄等"},{"start":7699.775,"end":7717.205,"text":"表決結果出席71人、贊成17人、反對51人、棄權3人、贊成者少數修正動議條文不通過請問原委本條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過有異議沒有異議第9條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過現在進行第12條請宣讀條文"},{"start":7719.222,"end":7739.54,"text":"時代力量黨團修正動議第12條中央主管機關應組成研究小組研究最低工資審議事宜前項研究小組之組成應包括下列人員一、學者專家6人其中4人由第7條第1項第6款鎖定學者專家擔任其餘由中央主管機關領聘之"},{"start":7740.12,"end":7756.248,"text":"二、中央主管機關國家發展委員會、經濟部、財政部及行政院主席總署各指派一人第一項研究小組應於每年4月向審議會提出最低工資實施對經濟及就業狀況之影響報告並於審議會召開會議30日前就第9條鎖定審議參採資料公佈研究報告及調整建議"},{"start":7765.994,"end":7784.184,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團修正動議第12條勞動部應社研究小組由第7條第一項第6款所定之專家學者7人組成定期召開會議就最低工資審議事宜研究之研究小組為蒐集研究資料則是需要辦理相關團體之諮詢聽證座談會議"},{"start":7787.285,"end":7811.651,"text":"並得函請中央相關機關提出與第9條鎖定標準相關之資料並依《行政程序法》之規定召開公聽會研究小組應於每年4月向審議會報告最低工資實施對經濟及就業狀況之影響並於審議會召開會議30日前就第9條鎖定之指標提出研究報告及具體調整方案建議"},{"start":7812.851,"end":7833.306,"text":"第三項之報告及建議應公佈於勞動部專屬網站並在名下列事項一、是否調整最低工資及調整範圍之具體建議二、做成錢款建議之理由及判斷之基礎資料研究小組織會議召集程序與議事規則由中央主管機關另訂之"},{"start":7834.967,"end":7855.296,"text":"民進黨黨團修正動議第12條中央主管機關應組成研究小組研究最低工資審議事宜前項研究小組之組成應包括下列人員一、學者專家6人其中4人由第7條第一項第5分所定學者專家擔任其餘由中央主管機關領聘之"},{"start":7856.016,"end":7880.883,"text":"二、中央主管金管國家發展委員會、經濟部財政部及行政院主席總處各指派一人第一項研究小組應於每年4月向審議會提出最低工資實施對經濟及就業狀況之影響報告並於審議會召開會議30日前就第9條鎖定審議參採資料提出研究報告及調整建議宣讀完畢"},{"start":7884.816,"end":7890.198,"text":"現在表決時代力量黨團修正統一條文民黨團時代力量黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7921.015,"end":7924.868,"text":"等20人、委員林鄭月娥等20人、委員林鄭月娥等20人、委員林鄭月娥等20人"},{"start":7962.113,"end":7965.994,"text":"表決結果出席71人、贊成3人、反對51人、棄權17人、贊成者少數修正動議條文不通過現在表決台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文民進黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7990.813,"end":7991.198,"text":"等20人、委員張廖萬佳"},{"start":8046.755,"end":8066.099,"text":"表決結果出席71人、贊成6人、反對51人、棄權14人、贊成則少數修正動議條文不通過請院會依照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過有異議、沒有異議、有異議我們進行表決現在表決民進黨黨團修正動議條文民進黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8074.667,"end":8096.017,"text":"等20人、委員吳嘉瑜等20人、委員周子維等20人、委員彭麗玲等20人、委員彭麗玲等20人、委員彭麗玲等20人、委員彭麗玲等20人、委員彭麗玲等20人、委員"},{"start":8140.543,"end":8145.126,"text":"了解結果出席71人、贊成51人、反對14人、棄權6人、贊成者多數第12條照民黨黨團修正動議條文通過現在進行協商結論保留條文二委員及黨團提案條文請宣讀各黨團版本"},{"start":8160.769,"end":8187.5,"text":"時代力量黨團修正動議第16條台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議第14條內容一致各級機關辦理採購發現廠商有違反本法規定者應將其事實及理由通知廠商並命於一定期間內不得參加政府採購法所稱投標或作為絕標對象或分包廠商其項情形準用政府採購法第102條及第103條之規定"},{"start":8192.199,"end":8216.892,"text":"國民黨黨團修正動議第16條最低工資之監督及檢查是用勞動基準法監督與檢查及其他相關事項之規定各級機關辦理採購發現廠商有違反本法規定者應將其事實及理由通知廠商並令其於一定期間內不得參加政府採購法所爭投標或作為決標對象或分報廠商"},{"start":8217.613,"end":8220.58,"text":"前項情形準用政府採購法第102條及第103條之規定民進黨黨團修正動議不予採納宣讀完畢"},{"start":8230.561,"end":8235.644,"text":"時代力量黨團修正動議條文第16條和民眾黨黨團修正動議條文第14條條文內容相同所以我們一併處理現在表決時代力量黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團分別所提修正動議條文民進黨團、時代力量黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8322.317,"end":8323.897,"text":"表決結果出席71人、贊成6人、反對51人、棄權14人"},{"start":8328.986,"end":8333.949,"text":"贊成則少數實在力量黨團修正動議16條民眾黨黨團修正動議14條條文不通過現在表決國民黨黨團修正動議條文民進黨團要求記名表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8411.109,"end":8418.115,"text":"表決結果出席71人、贊成17人、反對51人、棄權3人、贊成則少數國民黨黨團修正動議條文不通過報告議員會協商結論保留條文二不予採納請讓經過二讀現有民進黨黨團實在力量黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問議員會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之條文最低工資法"},{"start":8436.67,"end":8463.113,"text":"第一條 為確保勞工合理之最低工資提高勞工及其家庭之生活學準促進勞資和協特制定本法最低工資事項依本法之規定本法未規定者使用勞動基準法及其他相關法律之規定第二條 本法之主管機關在中央為勞動部在主轄市為主轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府"},{"start":8465.944,"end":8476.975,"text":"本法之適用對象為適用勞動基準法之勞工本法所申勞工、雇主、工資及事業單位之定義依勞動基準法第二條規定"},{"start":8478.516,"end":8501.07,"text":"第4條最低工資分為每月最低工資及每小時最低工資第5條勞工與雇主雙方一定之工資不得低於最低工資其一定之工資低於最低工資者以本法所定之最低工資為其工資數額第6條中央主管機關應設最低工資審議會以下簡宣審議會審議最低工資"},{"start":8506.687,"end":8534.135,"text":"第7條 審議會至委員21人由勞動部部長擔任召集人並為當然委員其餘委員之組成如下一、經濟部代表1人二、國家發展委會代表1人三、勞方代表7人四、資方代表7人五、學者專家4人前項勞方代表及資方代表分別由全國性勞工及工商之相關團體推介後由中央主管機關領聘之"},{"start":8535.055,"end":8562.262,"text":"第一項第五款學者專家由中央主管機關領聘之審議會委員任意性別比例不得少於三分之一第八條審議會委員任期為二年期滿得續聘前條第一項第一款至第四款所定委員辭職或出缺者由原推薦機關或團體重新推薦經中央主管機關領聘任期至原任期屆滿職者為止"},{"start":8564.643,"end":8574.051,"text":"請條第1項第5塊所定委員辭職或出缺者由中央主管機關另行另聘任期至原任期屆滿之日為至選議會委員均為吾己職"},{"start":8579.741,"end":8599.722,"text":"第9條最低工資稅審議應參選消費者物價指數年增率擬定調整幅度結效審議並得參選項列資料一、勞動生產力指數年增率二、勞工平均薪資年增率三、國家經濟發展存款四、國民所得及平均美元所得"},{"start":8600.942,"end":8608.264,"text":"5、國內生產毛文及成本構成之分配比率6、零生物價及生產成物價變動狀況7、個業產業發展情形及就業狀況8、個業勞工工資9、家庭收支狀況10、最低生活費"},{"start":8618.345,"end":8640.485,"text":"第10條 審議會亦於每年第三季召開會議但依第13條第2項規定召開則不在此限最低工資之審議應有委員二分之一以上出席時的開會審議未能達成共識者得經出席委員過半數同意亦決之審議會委員應親自出席不得委任他人代理"},{"start":8642.25,"end":8671.369,"text":"第11條 中央主管機關應於審議會會議結束後30日內與該機關網站分開會議資料及記錄第12條 中央主管機關應組成研究小組研究最低工資審議事宜前項研究小組織組成應包括下列人員一、學者專家6人其中4人由第7條第1項第5款所定學者專家擔任其餘由中央主管機關領聘之"},{"start":8672.51,"end":8688.123,"text":"中央主管機關國家發展委員會、經濟部財政部及行政院主席總處各指派1人第一項研究小組因於每年4月向審議會提出最低工資實施對經濟及就業狀況之影響報告並於審議會召開會議30日前就第9條鎖定審議參採資料提出研究報告及調整建議"},{"start":8698.956,"end":8717.68,"text":"第13條 中央主管機關應與最低工資審議通過之次日起10日內報請行政院核定後公告實施行政院不予核定者中央主管機關應與收到不予核定函之日起30日內再召開審議會進行審議並將審議結果依前項規定報請行政院予以核定"},{"start":8723.277,"end":8733.985,"text":"第14條經行政院合併之最低工資除審議會任由另訂實施日期必要並經行政院合併此外自次年1月1日實施"},{"start":8735.734,"end":8754.769,"text":"第15條 中央主管機關一第十三條第一項規定公告實施最低工資前原依《勞動基準法》公告之基本工資繼續有效本法施行後第一次公告之最低工資數額不得聽與本法施行前最後一次依《勞動基準法》公告之基本工資數額"},{"start":8757.711,"end":8765.244,"text":"第16條 最低工資之監督及檢查是用勞動基準法監督與檢查及其他相關事項之規定"},{"start":8768.427,"end":8793.869,"text":"第17條 勞工與雇主雙方議定之工資低於最低工資者由持強市縣市主管機關、主雇主或事業單位薪貸比2萬元以上100萬元下罰還並得依事業單位規模違反人數或違反情節加重其罰還制法定罰還最高額二分之一"},{"start":8794.889,"end":8822.8,"text":"經依前項規定逐一罰還者﹐居峽市縣市主管機關因公不甘事業單位或事業組織名稱、負責人姓名、處分日期及罰還金額﹐並限期令其改善,即其為改善者應按次處罰。居峽市縣市主管機關採處罰還,等審註與違反行為有關之勞工人數等計違法次數或為依法給付之金額,為良罰輕重之基準。"},{"start":8824.795,"end":8849.77,"text":"第18條本法實行後其他法規關於基本工資之規定適用本法最低工資之規定第19條本法實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議最低工資法制定通過"},{"start":8852.39,"end":8859.537,"text":"報告委員會本法條次及條文中之條次授權議事人員調整繼續處理黨團協商保留台灣民眾黨黨團所提出附帶決議共一項請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":8869.018,"end":8897.362,"text":"附帶決議為達到合理生活水準並使最低工資審議會能充分橫著整體經濟成長及社會情勢勞動部應於本法施行過後定期檢討本法第9條所定之參考資料也無增減之必要並研議將勞工交通成本、租金年增率、就業扶養比等參考指標及條幅建議納入本法第9條所定之得參採研議方向宣讀完畢"},{"start":8901.865,"end":8928.04,"text":"請問院會沒有依照案通過現在處理院會所收台灣民眾黨黨團所提之附帶決議共一項請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容附帶決議要求勞動部應會同行政院公共工程委員會研議明定契約範本內應包含參加政府採購之廠商若有違反本法規範之情勢應於一定期間內"},{"start":8929.991,"end":8953.398,"text":"排除其參與政府採購之權利且將違反本法條之廠商名單公開於政府電子採購網宣讀完畢請院會有異沒有異 照案通過判案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘並截止發言登記首先請范雲委員"},{"start":8975.778,"end":8991.675,"text":"副院長大家好最低工資法終於三讀通過小英總統任內基本工資連巴掌但是在小英總統之前因為沒有法制化的規範連年調升並不是常態更曾經動漲10年"},{"start":8993.817,"end":9011.125,"text":"所以我也一直呼籲最低工資法的立法建立穩定的審議機制實質反映生活水平的變動才能確保勞工維持具有人性尊嚴的基本生活品質我在2021年就提出最低工資法的草案也直接質詢勞動部長"},{"start":9013.126,"end":9031.26,"text":"五度跟民團召開記者會呼籲勞動部儘速提出對案我要特別謝謝未還委員會跟所有關心的委員此外要特別感謝勞政、全產總、北產總的建議跟協助讓立法院能夠看到弱勢勞工的需求"},{"start":9032.2,"end":9050.374,"text":"這次的立法讓台灣得以趕上世界的腳步建構完善的最低工資審議機制重要的是全台灣領基本工資的240萬勞工未來不用再擔心薪資動漲在通膨之下反而成為變相減薪"},{"start":9051.375,"end":9068.965,"text":"雖然我版本中時薪與月薪不脫鉤已經更為強化的公民參與機制並未納入但是未來我會持續關注新法上路的情況落實最低工資持續合理調漲保障我們全台灣最弱勢的勞工謝謝鄭政前委員聲明對早上的表決以國民黨黨團意見致列入公報記錄接下來請陳焦華委員"},{"start":9093.837,"end":9110.323,"text":"主席、各位同仁最低工資立法是時代力量不斷堅持的價值和主張時代力量自2016年提出最低工資法草案2018年推動最低工資法公投案再到2023年的今天完成立法"},{"start":9111.025,"end":9139.644,"text":"時代力量的信念不變始終如一蔡政府從上任前就開始講的最低工資法拖了7年拖到第10屆的最後一個會期才送到立法院今天看到最低工資法終於三讀我只能說這不過是執政黨為了挽救選情才終於趕在這個會期的尾聲才通過的法案不過實力必須說我們只能給予蔡政府最低限度的肯定"},{"start":9140.397,"end":9144.128,"text":"畢竟這次的結果人不盡善不盡完美"},{"start":9144.724,"end":9172.629,"text":"一方面我們固然肯定勞動部在歷經多次強力批評之後終於願意參採實力的意見規定行政院不得無限次的退回專業審議的結果讓行政院退回的次數只能以一次為限之後就必須要尊重專業審議的結果畢竟2012年勞委會主委下台的政治風暴再次以避免"},{"start":9173.949,"end":9201.604,"text":"2012年勞委會主委下台的政治風暴再次重演但另一方面針對勞工朋友蔡政府心中最軟的一塊勞動部卻拒絕把每年的通膨年增率列為最低工資調漲的樓地板放任最低工資被每年的通膨吃掉我們雖然多次爭取把通膨年增率納入成為最低工資調漲的樓地板"},{"start":9203.342,"end":9217.471,"text":"但非常遺憾勞動部仍然拒絕修改今日實例推動8年的最低工資法終於成功立法未來還有不盡完善的地方我們希望能夠再把它修好接下來請曾明中委員"},{"start":9238.969,"end":9264.053,"text":"謝謝主席蔡委員長各位同仁大家好最低工資法剛剛完成三讀有兩點意見第一點程序上要訂定最低工資法是蔡英文總統的政見但是拖了超過七年半都不提出修正草案直到最近才虛映故事將修正草案送到立法院來這是第一點第二點實質內容的部分第七條審議委員有21人勞動部"},{"start":9268.334,"end":9291.343,"text":"長、擔任召集人、經濟部一人、國發會一人、專家、協責4人勞方代表只有7人、支方代表7人將要組成結構沒有辦法到時候做實質的決策國民黨團是希望勞方代表要過半第二點是第9條有關最低工資審議應參與消費者物價指數擬定調整弧度"},{"start":9295.544,"end":9318.221,"text":"那基本上國民黨團是希望強力要求就是調整的弧度不得低於前一年的CPI也就是消費者物價指數這樣才有辦法隨著物價的調整來保障所有勞工的最低消費的權益保障最低工資保障法"},{"start":9319.383,"end":9348.272,"text":"不是要保障他的名目是要保障他的實質購買力這兩條重要的條文國民黨團都提出修正動議各位看到了剛剛表決的時候國民黨強力支持但是民進黨都強力反對所以最低工資法雖然完成三讀但基本上我議期最低工資法"},{"start":9349.292,"end":9357.905,"text":"徒計行事沒有辦法發揮他實質的功能我高度懷疑民進黨打假球打假球打假球接下來請求選自委員"},{"start":9380.097,"end":9405.96,"text":"主席各位同仁今天看到最低工資法終於刪讀我的心中百感交集最低工資法立法向來是十二力量的核心主張不管是在第九屆還是第十屆的國會十二力量都是第一個領先提出最低工資法草案的政黨反觀蔡政府從上任前就開始講的最低工資法"},{"start":9407.101,"end":9424.199,"text":"卻拖了7年拖到選舉前的最後一個會期才送到立法院好像如果不是因為選舉就不用遵守承諾就不用照顧勞工一樣雖然最低工資法拖到現在終於完成三讀該給的肯定還是要給"},{"start":9425.16,"end":9447.621,"text":"可是我也必須要說這部法還是有許多沒有處理好的地方我在這個審議的過程之中強調的原則很簡單我認為最低工資法至少要做到兩個最基本的保障第一個是對弱勢勞工的保障因此我主張最低工資的條幅不能夠低於物價的漲幅"},{"start":9449.182,"end":9470.322,"text":"為的就是不希望讓弱勢的勞工的薪水被高漲的物價吃掉這應該是政府最基本的工作也是勞工最卑微的請求可惜勞動部不接受因為保持彈性比勞工的三餐更重要我主張的第二個保障是對審議專業的保障"},{"start":9472.023,"end":9488.103,"text":"我認為最低工資的審議會當中資方、勞方以及專家學者三方的人數應該要相同這也是日本跟韓國的這個相關的制度但是勞動部不論是日本法或韓國法"},{"start":9489.946,"end":9503.302,"text":"都認為說勞動部的主張基本上根本就不符合國外的這個比較法上面的制度那我要嚴正的提醒勞動部請不要在審查時候提供錯誤的訊息"},{"start":9526.467,"end":9528.229,"text":"接下來請吳育琴委員"},{"start":9545.224,"end":9564.142,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天最低工資法能夠三讀通過應該是大家朝野共識希望能夠通過這個法那爭議其實沒有那麼大這剛我也特別的說明我想最低工資法自我們這個蔡總統上任來其實已經逐步調整基本工資從2萬08元到2萬7400是"},{"start":9571.548,"end":9600.394,"text":"470元這個漲幅達37%時薪也從120元漲到183元這個漲幅也到52%這都是具體的施政作為也公平合理的將台灣的經濟成果分享給勞工朋友縮短這個貧富的差距追求合理分配的一個積極手段那在這之前當然我們台灣整個社會對於勞工的性質確實有一些壓抑所以以降低這個產業的製造的成本所以造成工資合理性有一些落差"},{"start":9601.414,"end":9618.321,"text":"加上近年來的疫情和戰爭所牽動的物價上漲所以新資的漲幅帶給人民的富足感受不如預期的大但是這個是正確的道路調整新資我們就必須堅持不短視共同來追求"},{"start":9618.801,"end":9620.963,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會報告併案審查行政院、司法院函請審議、委員張廖萬堅等21人、委員張廖萬堅等22人、委員張廖萬堅等21人、委員張廖萬堅等21人、委員張廖萬堅等21人、委員"},{"start":9639.061,"end":9666.984,"text":"調整的建議公告的事項都在本法裡面有明確的規範所以本法通過之後國家的一個穩定是會有一個常態穩定的一個制度那剛剛大家提到了包括成員的一個組成我想這個剛我有在說明裡面其實在各國裡面它是三方一個是資方、勞方還有第三方那第三方的組成通常是學者、專家跟政府所以我們現在的最低基本工資的一個組成也是這樣的一個組成所以是符合"},{"start":9667.545,"end":9668.907,"text":"人民的期待 以上謝謝"},{"start":9689.668,"end":9705.443,"text":"謝謝主席還有大院所有同仁以及全國國人同胞最低公司法懸額未決7年直到今年大選再起才送入立法院雖然遲到但總算在本屆最後一個會期停會之前完成三讀立法"},{"start":9706.685,"end":9728.864,"text":"讓勞工擁有合理的生活水準台灣民眾黨、立法院黨團一直呼籲朝野正式勞工低薪的困境別把勞工的基本工資當成互相供給的政治籌碼更不可以一再拖延立法程序被遺忘7年的最低工資法選前才終於被想起凸顯執政黨政府對於勞工權益的漠視"},{"start":9729.685,"end":9751.745,"text":"解決低薪的困境應該是不分黨派的台灣共識台灣民眾黨提出自己的版本審理及協商的過程中希望能夠更貼近政策執行的面向包含納入CPI相關的參財指數以及審議委員會的組成結構確保保障基層勞工的生活品質"},{"start":9752.586,"end":9782.086,"text":"低薪、通膨、高房價、青年事不應沒有是台灣長年以來結構性的問題而總統蔡英文第二任任期即將到達尾聲基本工資三萬元的目標已經確定跳票如何減輕民眾的生活負擔留住人才提升產業的競爭力與薪資的結構環環相扣也是未來政府必須從長計議的問題最低工資法完成立法三讀是解決勞工低薪血汗的開始"},{"start":9782.846,"end":9809.626,"text":"但是如何創造一個友善的勞資共榮的環境並且合理的分配經濟果實這個才是長遠的長治久安的政策目標各政黨應該在這樣的基礎上攜手合作確保最低工資法立法通過之後能夠有效的執行這不僅是對勞工的尊重也是促進社會公平和諧共榮的關鍵步驟我們期待繼續努力真正為民眾的福祉"},{"start":9810.286,"end":9837.868,"text":"進行實質有建設性的討論謝謝接下來請賴世保委員謝謝主席 請各位先進我們看到最低公司法終於三度通過"},{"start":9839.363,"end":9858.659,"text":"老實講我心中沒有一絲絲的喜悅他只是把現在機制變成法律位階其他都沒有我們看到蔡英文總統2016年選總統的時候她就講了她要推最低公司的法"},{"start":9860.427,"end":9879.226,"text":"在任內在未來工資要達到3萬塊這兩個都跳票啊蔡英文到底是跳票總統3萬塊沒有達到最低工資法那裡面是什麼東西我們看到今天來講純粹是因為賴清德選情緊張啊賴清德"},{"start":9883.646,"end":9908.644,"text":"他要騙票所以蔡英文是跳票總統賴清德是騙票總統候選人他知道勞工希望有最低工資法結果就唬弄大家今天老實講我們在野黨我們挺得多好啊重中之重就是實質的內容是什麼我的條幅要跟CPI掛在一起啊"},{"start":9910.522,"end":9932.307,"text":"結果行政部門執政黨不願意給我們這算哪門子的一個法案這個到底雞肋法案好像有但是空的但是空的今天最新的消息今年的前10月份勞工總薪資十指負成長啊"},{"start":9934.079,"end":9954.816,"text":"比不上物價的上漲我們再看我們看到勞工所得佔GDP台灣落到43%遠低於歐美的50%以上這個就可以看得到現在執政黨太偏袒資方了我們覺得這個法案還要繼續修要給勞工真的"},{"start":9964.966,"end":9971.723,"text":"謝謝 接下來請李德維委員李德維不在 接下來請林維洲委員"},{"start":9984.589,"end":10012.703,"text":"最低工資法雖然三讀通過了不過我們現在來檢視一下原來我們針對最低工資都用一個審議辦法而不是法律位階來處理所以我把它總結啦到底我們把它法制化以後對於勞工最低薪資的保障我們做到哪件事情就是說你做到什麼"},{"start":10014.327,"end":10040.222,"text":"其實只有一點就每年審議定期審議以前的審議辦法不是定期審議是執政者、總統碰到想要提高的時候才去審議我們達到的這個政策目標定期審議最低工資這個以外沒有了其他就沒有了"},{"start":10041.874,"end":10067.99,"text":"審議委員的組成還是偏向資方因為資方的代表跟勞方一樣但是又有政府的兩席代表那等於是政府在做決定因為資方代表跟勞方代表都是七席都一樣啊但是又有政府的代表所以等於政府在做決定那跟以前有什麼不一樣"},{"start":10069.301,"end":10097.118,"text":"只是定期審議差別而已啦另外CPI指數你要調的幅度一定要有意義要大於CPI指數才不會被通膨吃掉我們堅持這樣的原則結果行政院版本民進黨的版本不用高於CPI指數調一點點也可以甚至不調也可以調0.1也可以"},{"start":10099.426,"end":10119.675,"text":"這樣有意義嗎?通膨高於調薪那這樣有意義嗎?所以是騙選票啊為了選舉繼續進行討論事項第8案刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":10121.158,"end":10139.974,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會於112年11月29日召開決定委員會議並按審查本案由湯召集委員會政擔任主席除邀請提案委員說明提案要之外相關機關應邀指派代表列席說明並答覆委員詢問與會員與聽取報告並經詢答後審略大體討論進行逐條審查並將全案審查完略"},{"start":10145.698,"end":10169.731,"text":"原經決議本案審查完略,理據審查報告提起院會公決,不須交由黨團協商院會討論時,由湯召集委員慧珍出席說明宣讀完畢請召集委員、湯委員慧珍補充說明湯委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再交由黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經依審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論刑事訴訟法請宣讀第219條之3"},{"start":10174.795,"end":10197.964,"text":"第二百十九條之三第二百十九條之一之保全證據申請應向偵查中之該本檢察官為之但案件尚未移送或報告檢察官者應向調查之司法檢察官或司法警察所屬機關所在地之地方檢察署檢察官申請宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第二百十九條之七"},{"start":10198.581,"end":10226.682,"text":"第219條之7保全之證據與偵查中由該管檢察官保管但案件在司法檢察官或司法警察調查中經法院為准許保全證據之裁定者由該司法檢察官或司法警察所屬機關所在地之地方檢察署檢察官保管之懲判中保全之證據由命保全之法院保管但案件細除他法院者應送交給法院宣讀完畢"},{"start":10228.342,"end":10253.926,"text":"照審查會條文通過第二百五十七條第二百五十七條在依據申請原檢察官認為有理由者應撤銷其處分除前條情形外應繼續偵查或起訴原檢察官任申請為無理由者應即將該案件總及證物送交上級檢察署檢察長或檢察總長申請已於前二條之期間則應不回支"},{"start":10254.526,"end":10270.296,"text":"原檢察署檢察長認為必要時於依第二項之規定送交前得親自獲命令他檢察官再行專查獲審和分別撤銷或維持原處分及維持原處分者應即送交宣讀完畢"},{"start":10274.417,"end":10303.937,"text":"第258條尚捷檢察署檢察長或檢察總長任贊義為無理由者應不回之認為有理由者第256條之一則進行應撤銷員處分第256條則進行應分別為下列處分一、偵查未完備者得親自或命令他檢察官再行偵查或命令原檢察署檢察官蓄息偵查二、偵查已完備者命令原檢察署檢察官起訴宣討完畢"},{"start":10305.118,"end":10325.9,"text":"照審查會條文通過第二百八十八條第二百八十八條調查證據應於第二百八十七條程序完畢後行之審判長對於準備程序中當事人不爭執之被告以外之人之陳述得盡以宣讀或告以要旨待之但法院任由必要者不在此限"},{"start":10326.56,"end":10349.725,"text":"除檢視審判程序案件外,審判長就被告備訴事實為詢問者,應予調查證據程序之最後行之。審判長就被告科刑資料之調查,應予前項事實詢問後行之,並先小預當事人就科刑資料,指出證明之方法。宣讀完畢。照審查會條文通過,第385條。"},{"start":10351.687,"end":10374.828,"text":"第385條除前條情形外,原審法院於接受答辯書或提出答辯書之期間已滿後,應速將該案卷宗及證物送交第三審法院對應之檢察署檢察官第三審法院對應之檢察署檢察官接受卷宗及證物後,應於7日內添續意見書送交第三審法院"},{"start":10375.649,"end":10397.114,"text":"但與原審法院對應之檢察署檢察官提出之上訴書或答辯書外無他意見者無庸添具意見書無檢察官為當事人之上訴案件原審法院應將卷宗及證物禁送交第三審法院宣討完畢照審查會條文通過第427條"},{"start":10400.031,"end":10425.799,"text":"第427條為受判決人之利益申請在審﹖得由下列個人為之一、晚宵法院對應之檢查署檢查官二、受判決人三、受判決人之法定代理人或配偶四、受判決人已死亡者其配偶之系血清三清等內之旁系血清二清等內之陰清或家屬家屬宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第428條"},{"start":10427.284,"end":10455.336,"text":"第428條,未受判決人之不利於申請再審,得由管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官及自述人為之但自述人申請再審者,已有第422條第一款規定之情形為限自述人已喪失行為能力或死亡者,得由第319條第一項所列,得為提起自述之人為前項之申請宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第430條"},{"start":10457.062,"end":10469.659,"text":"第430條 申請在審無停止新法執行之效力但管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官於在審之裁定前得命停止宣讀完畢照審查會條通過第434條"},{"start":10471.67,"end":10489.568,"text":"第434條法院認為無在審理由者因以裁定不揮之、申請人或受裁定者不服前項裁定者等於裁定送達後10日內抗告經第一項裁定後不得更以同意原因申請在審宣討完畢照審查會條文通過第441條"},{"start":10491.314,"end":10505.61,"text":"第441條判決確定後發現該案件之審判系違背法令者最高法院最高檢察署檢察總長能向最高法院提起非常上訴宣討完畢照審查會條文通過第442條"},{"start":10508.243,"end":10526.91,"text":"第442條檢察官發現有檢調前行者應據意見書將更按卷宗及證物送交最高檢察署檢察總長申請提起非常上訴宣討完畢照審查會條文通過委員蔡宇等提案第442條之一不予增訂第455條之30"},{"start":10529.349,"end":10544.951,"text":"第455條是申請撤銷、沒收、確定判決、無停止執行這項案例但管轄法院對應之檢察處檢察官於撤銷、沒收、確定判決之裁定前得命停止宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第476條"},{"start":10546.755,"end":10562.03,"text":"第476條緩刑之宣告應撤銷者由受刑人所在地或其最後住所地之地方法院對應之檢察署檢察官申請該法院裁定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第477條"},{"start":10563.82,"end":10582.148,"text":"第477條,依刑法第53條及第54條,應依刑法第51條第5款之第7款之規定,定其應執行執行者由該案犯罪事實最後判決之法院,對應之檢察署檢察官被拒善本,審請該法院裁定之。"},{"start":10582.748,"end":10605.735,"text":"法院於監証聖本後應將聖本送達於受刑人受刑人或其法定代理人配偶亦得請求檢察官為前項之申請法院對於第一項申請除顯無必要或有急迫情形者外於裁定前應與受刑人以言辭或書面陳述意見之機會法院依第一項裁定其應執行執行者應記載審酌之事項宣讀完畢"},{"start":10610.834,"end":10637.853,"text":"照審查會條文通過 全案經過二讀 現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀 請務院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之條文第219條之3 第219條之1之保全證據申請應向偵查中之該館檢察官為之但案件尚未移送或報告檢察官者應向調查局司法檢察官或司法警察所屬機關所在地之地方檢察署檢察官申請"},{"start":10640.069,"end":10660.067,"text":"第219條之7保全之證據與偵查中由該管檢察官保管但案件在司法警察官或司法警察調查中經法院為准許保全證據之裁定者由該司法警察官或司法警察所屬機關所在地之地方檢察署檢察官保管之"},{"start":10660.988,"end":10687.871,"text":"審判中保全之證據由命保全之法院保管但案件細數他法院則應送交該法院第257條在依據申請原檢察官認為有理由者應撤銷其處分除簽調情形外應繼續偵查或起訴原檢察官任申請為無理由者應即將該案件終極證物送交上級檢察署檢察長或檢察總長"},{"start":10688.912,"end":10709.34,"text":"申請已於前二條之期間者應不回之原檢察署檢察長認為必要時與依第二項之規定送交前得親自或命令他檢察官再行專查或審核分別涉下或維持原處分其維持原處分者應即送交第258條上級檢察署檢察長或檢察總長"},{"start":10714.842,"end":10737.108,"text":"認贊義為無理由者應不揮之認為有理由者第256條追情行應串銷原處分第256條追情行應分別為下列處分一、偵查未完備者得親自或命令他檢察官再行偵查或命令原檢察署檢察官續行偵查二、偵查已完備者命令原檢察署檢察官起訴"},{"start":10738.991,"end":10766.582,"text":"第288條 調查證據因於第287條程序完畢後行之審判長對於準備程序中當事人不爭執之被告以外之人之陳述得經已宣讀或告以要之代之但法院任由必要者不在此限除檢視審判程序案件外審判長就被告背訴事實為詢問者因於調查證據程序之最後行之"},{"start":10767.302,"end":10777.115,"text":"審判長就被告科刑資料之調查應於前項事實詢問後行之並先小預當事人就科刑資料指出證明之方法"},{"start":10778.789,"end":10805.496,"text":"第385條除前條請行外原審法院於接受答辯書或提出答辯書之期間已滿後應速將該案卷宗及證物送交第三審法院對應之檢察署檢察官第三審法院對應之檢察署檢察官接受卷宗及證物後應於7日內添具意見書送交第三審法院但與原審法院對應之檢察署檢察官"},{"start":10806.036,"end":10834.611,"text":"提出之上訴書或答辯書外無他意見者無庸添具意見書無檢察官為當事人之上訴案件原審法院應將卷宗及證物禁送交第三審法院第427條未受判決人之利益申請在審得由下列各人為之一、晚霞法院對應之檢察署檢察官二、受判決人三、受判決人之法定代理人或配偶"},{"start":10835.291,"end":10856.776,"text":"四、受判決人亦死亡者、其配偶之系血親、三親等內之旁系血親、二親等內之因親或家長家屬第428條,未受判決人之不利益申請再審,得由管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官及自述人為之,但自述人申請再審者"},{"start":10858.676,"end":10883.098,"text":"已有第422條第一款規定之起行為限自訴人已喪失行為能力或死亡者等由第319條第一項所列等為提起自訴之人為情商之申請第430條申請再審無停止刑法執行之效力但管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官於再審之裁定前得命停滯"},{"start":10884.439,"end":10912.421,"text":"第434條﹐法院認為無在審理由者因以裁定不回之、申請人或受裁定人不符前項裁定者等於裁定送達後10日內抗告,經第一項裁定後不得更以同意原因申請暫時第441條﹐判決確定後發現該案件之審判系違背法令者﹐最高檢察署檢察總長等向最高法院提起非常上訴"},{"start":10914.775,"end":10926.707,"text":"第442條檢察官發現有檢調情形者應據意見書將該案捲綜及證物送將最高檢察署檢察總長申請提起非常上訴"},{"start":10928.735,"end":10954.697,"text":"第455條之30申請撤銷、沒收確定判決、無停止執行之效力但管轄法院對應之檢察署檢察官於撤銷、沒收確定判決之裁定前得命停滯第476條緩刑之宣告應撤銷者由受刑人所在地或其最後住所地之地方法院對應之檢察署檢察官申請該法院裁定之"},{"start":10956.846,"end":10985.948,"text":"第477條依刑法第53條及第54條應依刑法第51條第5款之第7款之規定定其應執行之刑者由該案犯罪事實最後判決之法院對應之檢察署檢察官備據善本申請該法院裁定之法院於接受善本後應將善本送達於受刑人受刑人或其法定代理人配偶應亦得請求檢察官為前項之申請"},{"start":10986.849,"end":11003.757,"text":"法院對於第一項申請除嫌無必要或有急迫情形者外於裁定前應與受刑人以言辭或書面陳述意見之機會法院依第一項裁定其應執行執行者應記載審酌之事項宣讀完畢三讀條語宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正"},{"start":11013.322,"end":11016.905,"text":"沒有文字修正決議刑事訴訟法第219條之3、第219條之7、第257條、第258條、第288條、第385條、第427條、第428條、第430條、第434條、第441條、第442條、第455條之30、第476條及第477條條文修正通過"},{"start":11042.869,"end":11048.806,"text":"討論事項第9案立法院程序委員會組織歸程第5條條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":11050.592,"end":11069.844,"text":"委員司法及法制委員會於112年11月27日召開決定委員會議審查本案由湯莊召集委員會政擔任主席除邀請提案黨團說明提案要指揮相關機關應邀指派代表列舉說明並答復委員詢問與候員予聽取報告並詢談完畢後審略大體討論進行主條審查並將全案審查完畢原清決議審查完畢擬據審查報告提請委員會公決本案不需再由黨團結商"},{"start":11080.151,"end":11102.603,"text":"約會討論時由湯召集委員會爭說明宣讀完畢請召集委員湯委員會爭補充說明湯委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請問約會有無異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論立法院程序委員會組織規程請宣讀第五條"},{"start":11103.779,"end":11125.425,"text":"第5條本院各委員會審查議案由程序委員會依下列規定分配提報院會決定一、內政委員會審查內政、選舉大陸原住民族、客家海洋政策及有關內政部、中央選舉委員會、大陸委員會、原住民族委員會、客家委員會、海洋委員會、不當黨產處理委員會、整理事項之議案"},{"start":11126.045,"end":11141.38,"text":"二、外交及國防委員會審查外交、證物、國防退出與官兵輔導政策與宣戰案、共和案、條約案、戒嚴案及有關外交部、強務委員會、國防部、國軍退出官兵輔導委員會整理事項之議案"},{"start":11142,"end":11167.35,"text":"三、經濟委員會審查經濟、農業、國家發展、公平教育、能源政策及有關經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、公平教育委員會整理事項之議案四、財政委員會審查財政金融政策、預算、決算、儲計、審計及有關財政部、中央銀行金融監督管理委員會、前監獄主席總署整理事項之議案"},{"start":11167.97,"end":11189.669,"text":"五、教育及文化委員會審查教育文化科技政策及有關教育部文化部國立工工博物院、中央研究院、國家科學及技術委員會、核能安全委員會掌理事項之議案六、交通委員會審查交通數位發展、公共工程通訊傳播政策及有關交通部數位發展部"},{"start":11190.109,"end":11213.096,"text":"行政院公共工廠委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會國家運輸安全調查委員會整理事項之議案其司法及法制委員會審查民事、刑事、行政訴訟、懲戒、大審、機關組織與有關防務部、行政院人事行政總署整理事項及其他部署一各委員會審查之議案國營事業機構組織之議案應視其性質由有關委員會主持"},{"start":11217.697,"end":11245.529,"text":"八、社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查衛生環境社會福利、勞工消費者保護政策及有關衛生福利部、環境部、勞動部長領事項之議案前項議案審查之分配其性質與其他委員會有關聯著配由主持審查之委員會與有關委員會會同審查之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過"},{"start":11246.954,"end":11261.334,"text":"決議立法院程序委員會組織規程第5條條文修正通過討論事項第10案國家電影及視聽文化中心113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":11262.847,"end":11291.553,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月2日召開決定委員會議邀請文化部部長石哲等相關人員列行說明並等過委員諮詢赴於112年11月16日召開決定委員會議進行實質審查二次會議均由鄭兆景文立文擔任主席本案審查完均已具審查報告提醒委員會公決本案不須交由黨團協商約會討論時推請鄭兆景文立文補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":11293.594,"end":11306.122,"text":"請召集委員、政委員、立委員補充說明政委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理請宣讀國家電影及視聽文化中心"},{"start":11307.083,"end":11335.242,"text":"國家電影及視聽文化中心113年度預算書案一、業務計劃因依據業務收支固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項追審查結果隨從調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入二、業務總日出三、本期短處均照列三、固定資產建設改良擴充照列四、資金運用因依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項追審查結果隨從調整五、通過決議影像宣讀完畢"},{"start":11338.223,"end":11351.806,"text":"照審查會意見通過,全案經過二讀,先由民黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀,請務院會有異議,沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀,直條文國家電影及視聽文化中心113年度預算署案,宣讀完畢"},{"start":11354.585,"end":11375.965,"text":"更正剛剛應該是宣讀經過二讀之內容好 三讀內容已宣讀完畢請問院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正決議國家電影及視聽文化中心113年度預算案照審查報告通過討論事項第11案文化內容策進院113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":11377.389,"end":11405.865,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月2日召開全體委員會議邀請文化部長、部長、使者等相關人員列寫說明並黨部委員諮詢赴於112年11月16日召開全體委員會議進行實質審查兩次會議均由鄭、趙、景、文、立文擔任主席本案審查完畢領據審查報告提醒委員會公決本案不需向黨團協商與會討論時推請鄭、趙、景、文、立文補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":11408.585,"end":11420.343,"text":"請召集委員、政委員立文補充說明政委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再叫黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議請本案經依審查會意見處理請宣讀文化內容測定院"},{"start":11421.178,"end":11445.716,"text":"文化內容策定員113年度預算署案一、業務計劃因依據業務收支、固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項目審查結果隨從調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入二、業務總支出三本期剩餘均照列三、固定資產建設改良擴充照列四、資金運用因依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項目審查結果隨從調整宣讀完畢"},{"start":11450.816,"end":11478.757,"text":"照審查會意見通過,全案經過二讀,現有民進黨黨團提議,繼續進行三讀,請務院會有異議,沒有異議,請宣讀經過二讀之內容文化內容測經院113年度預算署案,宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢,請務院會有文字修正,沒有文字修正,決議文化內容測經院113年度預算案,照審查報告通過討論事項第12案,國家表演藝術中心113年度預算案,請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":11480.322,"end":11507.833,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月2日召開決定委員會議邀請文化部部長史哲等相關人員練習說明並答覆委員諮詢赴於112年11月16日召開決定委員會議進行實質審查二次會議均由鄭兆景文立文擔任主席本案審查完均已據審查報告提醒委員會公決本案不需交由黨團先生約會討論時推請鄭兆景文立文補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":11512.535,"end":11524.362,"text":"請召集委員、政委、立委補充說明政委沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請問院會有依、沒有依本案經依審查會意見處理請宣讀國家表演藝術中心"},{"start":11525.171,"end":11550.717,"text":"國家表演藝術中心113年度預算署案一、業務計劃一、依據業務收支、固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項目的審查結果適当調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入、業務總支出三、本期短處均照列三、固定資產建設改良擴充照列四、資金運用一、依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項目的審查結果適當調整五、通過決議三項宣讀完畢"},{"start":11553.325,"end":11578.357,"text":"照審查會意見通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團體繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容國家表演藝術中心113年度預算書案宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議國家表演藝術中心113年度預算案照審查報告通過討論事項第13案"},{"start":11580.285,"end":11598.721,"text":"國家太空中心112年度預算案請宣讀審查報告本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月8日召開決定委員會議審查本案邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員兼行政法人國家太空中心董事長吳振中順應相關人員列行說明並答覆委員諮詢"},{"start":11599.922,"end":11618.017,"text":"復於112年11月30日召開協定委員會議進行實質審查二次會議均由鄭、趙、景、文、麗文擔任主席本案審查完畢領去審查報告提請院會公決本案不須交由黨團協商院會討論時推請鄭、趙、景、文、麗文補充說明宣讀完畢請趙、景、文、鄭、麗文補充說明鄭、麗文沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再交由黨團協商請問院會有依沒有依"},{"start":11629.079,"end":11632.336,"text":"本案經以審查違意見處理請宣讀國家太空中心"},{"start":11633.09,"end":11658.978,"text":"國家太空中心一百十二年度預算書案一、業務計劃一、依據業務收支固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項目審查結果隨從調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入二、業務總支出三本期短處均照列三、固定資產建設改良擴充四、國庫增撥基金額均無劣數五、資金運用一、依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項目審查結果隨從調整宣讀外幣"},{"start":11662.796,"end":11691.63,"text":"照審查會意見通過 全案經過二讀 現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀 請問院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容國家太空中心112年度預算書案 宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢 請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正 決議國家太空中心112年度預算案 照審查報告通過討論事項第14案國家太空中心112年度預算案 請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":11693.103,"end":11706.518,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月8日召開決定委員會審查本案邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員兼行政法人國家太空中心董事長吳振忠順相關人員列行說明並達貨源諮詢"},{"start":11708.32,"end":11725.882,"text":"復於112年11月30日召開權力會員會議進行實質審查二次會議均由鄭、趙、景、袁、麗文擔任主席本案審查完畢領據審查報告提醒院會公決本案不需交由黨團協商院會討論時推請鄭、趙、景、袁、麗文補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":11730.216,"end":11732.299,"text":"本案經審查會決議不須再交黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經審查會意見處理請宣讀國家太空中心"},{"start":11743.018,"end":11769.533,"text":"國家太空中心113年度預算署案一、業務計劃一、依據業務收支固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項追審查結果隨同調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入二、業務總支出三、本期短處均照列三、固定資產建設改良擴充四、國庫增多基金額均無劣數五、資金運用一、依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項追審查結果隨同調整六、通過決議一項宣讀完畢"},{"start":11773.325,"end":11800.263,"text":"照審查會意見通過 全案經過二讀 現有民黨黨團體繼續進行三讀 請務院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀 致條文來致內容國家太空中心113年度預算書案 宣讀完畢三讀內容與宣讀完畢 請務院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正 決議國家太空中心113年度預算案 照審查報告通過討論事項第15案"},{"start":11802.208,"end":11825.03,"text":"國家災害防救科技中心113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月8日召開決定委員會以審查本案邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳振中及行政法人國家災害防救科技中心董事長陳宗權順應相關人員歷史說明並答覆委員質詢"},{"start":11826.171,"end":11853.837,"text":"復於112年11月30日召開決定委員會議進行實質審查二次會議均由鄭兆錦文、立文擔任主席本案審查完均一句審查報告提醒院會公決本案不需交由黨團協商院會討論時推請鄭兆錦文、立文補充說明宣讀完畢請兆紀委員、鄭委員補充說明鄭委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交由黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會一件處理請宣讀"},{"start":11855.919,"end":11857.818,"text":"國家災害防救科技中心"},{"start":11858.599,"end":11886.112,"text":"國家災害防救科技中心113年度預算署案一、業務計劃因依據業務收支、固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項追審查結果隨從調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入二、業務總支出三、本期短處均照列三、結交公庫金額四、轉投資計劃均無劣數五、固定資產建設改良擴充照列六、資金運用因依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良擴充等項追審查結果隨從調整七、通過決議影響"},{"start":11888.473,"end":11912.949,"text":"宣讀完畢照審查委意見通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有依沒有依請宣讀經過二讀之內容國家災害防救科技中心113年度預算書案宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢請願會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議國家災害防救科技中心113年度預算案照審查報告通過討論事項第16案"},{"start":11914.429,"end":11918.438,"text":"國家原子能科技研究院112年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":11919.386,"end":11945.754,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月29日召開全體委員會議審查本案有請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽等相關人員列席說明並擔負委員質詢赴於112年12月4日召開全體委員會議進行實質審查二次會議均由鄭兆錦文立文擔任主席本案審查完畢理據審查報告提請委會公決本案不需交由黨團協商約會討論時推請鄭兆錦文立文補充說明"},{"start":11949.275,"end":11963.87,"text":"宣讀完畢請召集委員鄭委員利用補充說明鄭委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再叫黨團協商請院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理請宣讀國家原子能科技研究院"},{"start":11964.827,"end":11994.148,"text":"國家原子能科技研究院一百十二年度預算書案一、業務計劃一、業務收支固定資產結算改良擴充及資金運用等項追審查結果隨同調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入二、業務總支出三本結算與均照列三、結繳關乎金額四、轉投資計劃均無劣數五、固定資產結算改良擴充照列六、國庫增波基金額無劣數七、資金運用一、業務收支及固定資產結算改良擴充等項追審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":11994.688,"end":12023.459,"text":"宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容國家原子能科技研究院一百十二年度預算書案宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議國家原子能科技研究院一百一十二年度預算案照審查報告通過討論事項第17案國家原子能科技研究院一百一十三年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12024.332,"end":12053.511,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年11月29日召開全體委員會議有請衡能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽等相關委員列行說明並答覆委員諮詢赴於112年12月4日召開全體委員會議進行實質審查二次會議均由鎮召集委員立文擔任主席本案審查文據擬據審查報告提醒會公決本案不需交由黨團協商約會討論時推請鎮召集委員立文補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12056.034,"end":12066.91,"text":"請召集委員、政委利用補充說明政委沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經以審查會意見處理請宣讀國家原子能科技研究院"},{"start":12067.643,"end":12088.542,"text":"國家原子能科技研究院113年度預算署案一、業務計劃一、預計業務收支固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項追審查結果隨同調整二、業務收支一、業務總收入二、業務總支出三、本期申餘均照列三、結繳公募金額四、轉投資計劃均無列數五、固定資產建設改良擴充照列"},{"start":12089.022,"end":12103.206,"text":"六、國庫暫撥基金額無劣數、七、資金運用、因依據業務收支及固定資產建設改良或雙等項目的審查結果與手動調整八、通過決議影響宣讀完畢照審查會議件通過請願經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有疑沒有疑請宣讀經過二讀之內容"},{"start":12109.315,"end":12130.63,"text":"國家原子能科技研究院113年度預算書案宣讀完畢宣讀內容已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議國家原子能科技研究院113年度預算案照審查報告通過討論事項第18案財團法人228事件紀念基金會等8家財團法人113年度預算案先進行財團法人228事件紀念基金會113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12136.704,"end":12150.597,"text":"本院內政委員會於112年10月23日舉行全英委員會議審查本案由羅趙錦緯美玲擔任主席審查時邀請內政部部長李佑昌等立行說明並擔貨員質詢本案審查文件提報約會公決約會討論前不需經黨團協商並推請羅趙錦緯美玲於討論時作補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12160.289,"end":12187.964,"text":"請召集委員羅衛美玲補充說明羅衛沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再交到黨團協商請務院會有異議沒有異議本案經以審查會意見處理請宣讀財產法人228事件紀念基金會財產法人228事件紀念基金會113年度預算署案一、業務計畫一、依據收入與支出審查結果隨從調整二、收入支出及餘出一、收入和支出三、本期剩餘短處均照列宣讀完畢"},{"start":12189.244,"end":12201.853,"text":"照審查會意見通過,全案經過二讀,卻由民黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀,請務院會有異議,沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容三讀內容已宣讀完畢,請務院會有文字修正,沒有文字修正,決議參訪法人228事件紀念基金會113年度預算,照審查報告通過"},{"start":12215.623,"end":12224.387,"text":"本院內政委員會於112年10月23日舉行全體委員會議審查本案由羅兆景委美玲擔任主席審查時邀請內政部部長林佑昌等內協說明並導播委員質詢本案審查完均提報院會公決院會討論前不需經黨團協商並推請羅兆景委美玲於討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12245.849,"end":12267.702,"text":"請召集委員羅衛美玲補充說明羅衛沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再交到黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理請宣讀財團法人中央營建技術顧問研究社財團法人中央營建技術顧問研究社113年度預算書案一、業務進化二、收入支出及餘處三、本期剩餘均照列宣讀完畢"},{"start":12277.475,"end":12302.274,"text":"照審查會意見通過 全案經過二讀 現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀 請務院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀的內容參與法人中央營建技術顧問研究社113年度預算書案 宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢 請務院會有文字修正 沒文字修正決議參與法人中央營建技術顧問研究社113年度預算案 照審查報告通過"},{"start":12304.879,"end":12324.245,"text":"財團法人臺灣建築中心113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告本院內政委員會於112年10月23日舉行決定委員會議審查本案由羅趙錦文美玲擔任主席審查時邀請內政部部長林佑昌等列席說明並答覆委員質詢本案審查完畢提報院會公決院會討論前不須經黨團協商並推行羅趙錦文美玲於討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12334.814,"end":12346.131,"text":"請召集委員羅衛美玲補充說明羅衛沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再叫黨團協商請院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理請宣讀財團法人台灣建築中心"},{"start":12348.147,"end":12370.725,"text":"財團法人臺灣建築中心113年度預算書案一工作計畫因依據收支與收入與支出審查結果相同調整二收入支出及預出一收入二支出三本期剩餘均照列三本項通過權影響宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過請願經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容"},{"start":12377.812,"end":12398.778,"text":"財團法人台灣建築中心113年度預算書案宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議財團法人台灣建築中心113年度預算案照審查報告通過財團法人台灣省義勇人員安全寄住基金會113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12399.71,"end":12423.027,"text":"本院內政委員會分別於112年11月2日及30日舉行決定委員會議審查本案由游兆景委越南擔任主席審查時邀請內政部部長林佑昌等立席說明並導播委員質詢本案審查文件提報約會公決約會討論前不需經黨團協商並推請游兆景委越南於討論時作補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12425.206,"end":12438.148,"text":"請召集委員、遊遊委員依然補充說明遊遊委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交黨團協商請問院會有依、沒有依本案經依審查會意見處理請宣讀財產法人、台灣省義勇人員安全寄註基金會"},{"start":12439.245,"end":12459.309,"text":"財團法人臺灣省義勇人權安全技術基金會113年度預算書案一工作計畫因據收入與支出審查結果尊重調整二收入支出給予處一收入二支出三本集團處均照列宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過請願經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容"},{"start":12465.823,"end":12489.813,"text":"財政法人臺灣審議有無人員安全借助基金會113年度預算書案宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有依沒有依請宣讀經過二讀之內容財政法人臺灣審議有無人員安全借助基金會113年度預算書案宣讀完畢"},{"start":12492.54,"end":12514.459,"text":"宣讀內容已宣讀完畢 請委員會有文字修正 沒文字修正決議財團法人 台灣省義勇人員安全寄住基金會113年度預算案 照審查報告通過財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權益回復基金會113年度預算案 請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12516.004,"end":12537.686,"text":"本院內政委員會於112年10月23日舉行全院委員會議審查本案由羅兆啟委員美玲擔任主席審查時邀請內政部部長林佑昌等列席說明並答復委員質詢本案審查完全提包院會公決院會討論前不需經黨團先生並推請羅兆啟委員美玲與討論時作補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12539.495,"end":12554.523,"text":"請召集委員羅緯美玲補充說明羅緯沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請委員會有異議沒有異議本案經依審查會意見處理請宣讀參選法人未選統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復基金會"},{"start":12555.823,"end":12575.681,"text":"財政法人威權統治實行國家不法行為被害者權利回覆基金會113年度預算書案一工作企劃依據收入以支出審查結果相同調整二收入支出給予處一收入二支出三本期剩餘均照列宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有依沒有依請宣讀經過二讀之內容"},{"start":12581.85,"end":12606.41,"text":"財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復基金會113年度預算書案宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議財團法人威權統治時期國家不法行為被害者權利回復基金會113年度預算案照審查報告通過財團法人警察學術研究基金會113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12609.215,"end":12629.45,"text":"本院內政委員會於112年11月2日及11月30日舉行全英委員會議審查本案由由趙錦惟、喻蘭擔任主席審查是邀請內政部部長林佑昌等列席說明並答覆委員質詢本案是長文俊提報院會公決院會討論前不許吸引黨團審商並推請由趙錦惟、喻蘭與討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12635.869,"end":12662,"text":"請召集委員、遊泳員依然補充說明遊泳員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請務院會有依沒有依本案經依審查會意見處理請宣讀財團法人警察學術研究基金會財團法人警察學術研究基金會113零度預算書案依工作計畫依依據收入與支出審查結果總統調整而收入支出及餘處依收入二支出三本期剩餘均照列宣讀完畢"},{"start":12664.195,"end":12691.923,"text":"照審查會意見通過 全案經過二讀 現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀 請問院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容參團法人警察學術研究基金會113年度預算書案 宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢 請問院會有文字修正 沒有文字修正決議參團法人警察學術研究基金會113年度預算案 照審查報告通過參團法人義勇消防人員安全技術基金會113年度預算案 請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12694.537,"end":12712.281,"text":"本院內政委員會分別於112年11月2日及11月30日舉行全體委員會議審查本案由由趙啓委員越南擔任主席、審查生邀請內政部部長林佑昌等列席說明並答覆委員質詢本案審查完畢提包約會公決約會討論前不需經黨團協商並推請由趙啓委員越南與討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12721.777,"end":12735.019,"text":"請召集員、遊泳員依然補充說明遊泳員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再叫黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經依審查會意見處理請宣讀採訪法人義勇消防人員安全記住基金會"},{"start":12736.171,"end":12765.228,"text":"財團法人易勇、消防人員、安全技術及經費113年度預算署案一、工作計畫一、依據收入與支出審查結果隨從調整二、收入支出及預出一、收入二支出三、本期剩餘均照列宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團梯繼續進行三讀請院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容財團法人易勇、消防人員、安全技術及經費113年度預算署案宣讀完畢"},{"start":12766.124,"end":12783.141,"text":"三讀內容已宣讀完畢,請問院會有文字修正?沒有文字修正,決議財政法人義勇消防人員安全寄住基金會113年度預算案照審查報告通過財政法人台灣營建研究院113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12784.588,"end":12798.514,"text":"本院內政委員會於112年10月23日舉行全體委員會議審查本案由羅趙錦惟美玲擔任主席審查是邀請內政部部長林佑昌等練習說明並等副委員諮詢本案審查文訊提報院會公決院會討論前不需經黨團協商並推請羅趙錦惟美玲與討論時作補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12809.606,"end":12836.232,"text":"請召集委員羅偉美玲補充說明羅偉沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交黨團協商請問院會有依沒有依本案經依審查會意見處理請宣讀財團法人台灣營建研究院財團法人台灣營建研究院113年度預算書案依工作計畫依依據收入與支出審查結果所從調整二、收入支出僅餘處依收入二、支出三本期剩餘均照列三、通過決議影像宣讀完畢"},{"start":12838.717,"end":12866.516,"text":"照審查會意見通過,請願經過二讀,現有民進黨黨團提議,繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議?沒有異議,請宣讀經過二讀之內容財產法人台灣營建研究院113年度預算書案,宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢,請問院會有文字修正?沒有文字修正,決議財產法人台灣營建研究院113年度預算案,照審查報告通過討論事項第19案,財產法人原住"},{"start":12867.881,"end":12879.87,"text":"民主文化事業基金會及台灣法人援助民主語言研究發展基金會113年度預算案先進行台灣法人援助民主文化事業基金會113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12881.377,"end":12901.161,"text":"審議院內政委員會於112年11月27日舉行全體委員會議審查本案由尤趙錦榮、喻蘭擔任主席審查是邀請參團法人援助民族文化試驗經濟會董事長馬拉烏斯、瑞統相關單位人員列行說明並黨副委員質詢本案審查完略提報約會公決約會討論前不需經黨團先生並推請尤趙錦榮、喻蘭於討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":12910.267,"end":12922.02,"text":"請召集委員、遊遊委員依然補充說明遊遊委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再交到黨團協商請委員會有異沒有異本案經審查會意見處理請宣讀參加法人援助民主文化事業基金會"},{"start":12923.007,"end":12938.473,"text":"財政法人援助民族文化事業基金會113年度預算書案一、工作計劃因應據收入與支出審查結果修通調整二、收入支出僅餘處一、收入二支出三本期短處均照列三、本項通過決議二項宣讀IP"},{"start":12942.352,"end":12969.71,"text":"全案經過二讀,現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請勿願...剛剛是照審查會意見通過全案經過二讀,現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請勿願會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會113年度預算書案宣讀完畢三讀內容已宣讀完畢請勿願會有文字修正、沒有文字修正決議財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會113年度預算案照審查報告通過"},{"start":12971.513,"end":12976.228,"text":"香港法人援助民主語言研究發展基金會113年度預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":12977.728,"end":12997.614,"text":"本院內政委員會於112年11月27日舉行全體委員會議審查本案由由趙啟文、喻蘭擔任主席審查時邀請財團法人、原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長馬耀古木率同相關單位人員列行說明並達復原諮詢本案審查完略提報約會公決約會討論前不需經黨團協商並推請由趙啟文、喻蘭與討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":13007.209,"end":13020.638,"text":"請召集委員、有委員立然補充說明有委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請問院會有異議、沒有異議本案進一審查會意見處理請宣讀財團法人援助民主語言研究發展基金會"},{"start":13021.714,"end":13043.667,"text":"財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算書恩一工作計畫因依據收入與支出審查結果遂同調整二收入支出及餘處一收入二支出三本期剩餘均照列三本項通過決議二項宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過請願經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之內容"},{"start":13049.84,"end":13077.763,"text":"財團法人援助民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算書案宣讀完畢宣讀內容已宣讀完畢請問議員會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議財團法人援助民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算案照審查報告通過討論事項第20案中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案含附屬單位預算及重計表營業及非營業部分今天審議內政、教育文化、交通三委員會"},{"start":13079.401,"end":13082.77,"text":"補送列入審查總報告部分請宣讀財政委員會"},{"start":13085.345,"end":13105.732,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總審案還附屬單位預算及綜計表演業及非營業部分各委員會審查結果社會福利及衛生環境委員會完成公務預算部分審查總報告令外交及國防委員會於112年11月22日司法及法制委員會於112年11月23日財政委員會及經濟委員會於112年11月29日"},{"start":13110.934,"end":13123.669,"text":"交通委員會及教育及文化委員會於112年12月4日內政委員會於112年12月6日分別提出審查報告由財政委員會整理後函請議事處提報院會併案討論審查結果如下"},{"start":13126.873,"end":13146.882,"text":"一、稅入部分審查結果,增列158億57126000元,自應113例度中央政府準算案先行審議單位預算,其涉及附屬單位預算營業及分營業部分之營業營業及失業收入均占照列。四、附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整,稅入總額佔改列為7250億4320萬4000元。"},{"start":13151.664,"end":13176.165,"text":"4月會審議通過後再由行政院主席總署依照各款項目分別調整計列二、稅收部分審查結果共計減列2億9923萬5千元自因110度中央政府總算案先行審議單位預算其涉及附屬單位預算營業及分業部分之國庫增撥額等均占上列四、附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整"},{"start":13177.026,"end":13196.883,"text":"最初總額政改電為2兆8814億、8286萬元4月會審議通過後再由行政院主席總署依照各款項目分別調整紀列三、融資財源調度部分113例如中央政府組織案有關融資財源調度部分編列政務就償還1151億元"},{"start":13199.865,"end":13210.153,"text":"稅入、稅出差短及債務之償還、合共上稅融資調度數2875億9596萬7千元一、舉借債務1720億9596萬7千元及已用以前年度稅計剩餘1155億元之印均佔少列四、總算稅入、稅出審議結果再行調整"},{"start":13222.563,"end":13250.252,"text":"四、一百十三年度中央政府總算案審查結果﹐稅數稅數總額如有差短﹐及經常收支如有不平衡時送誘惠處理五、一百十三年度中央政府總算案新型審議單位預算﹐其涉及附屬單位預算營業及分業部分均佔照列﹐自附屬單位預算審議確定後暫行調整六、一百十三年度中央政府總算案稅數正式別部分﹐隨同稅數機關別審查結果予以調整"},{"start":13253.233,"end":13271.522,"text":"內政教育及文化交通委員會審查結果均須藉由黨團寫生約會討論時﹐內政委員會由游兆吉委員玉琳、羅兆吉委員美玲、教育及文化委員會游政兆吉委員麗文、交通委員會由陳兆吉委員學生和兆吉委員新淳出席說明宣傳完畢"},{"start":13275.404,"end":13295.982,"text":"三個委員會召委分別由委員玉蘭、政委員麗文、陳委員雪生皆沒有補充說明本案經內政、教育、文化、交通委員會決議需交黨團協商依處理預算案之議事成立按各委員會審查單位主款宣讀後均暫行保留等協商後再行處理請宣讀內政委員會審查結果"},{"start":13299.171,"end":13319.525,"text":"內政委員會一稅入部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第五項行政委員會五列數第十二項原住民族委員會第十三項原住民族文化發展中心第十四項國家委員會及所屬第十五項中央選舉委員會及所屬均照列第十九項道路委員會五列數第六項內政部第六三項國土管理署及所屬"},{"start":13320.305,"end":13347.035,"text":"第64項警政署及所屬第65項中央檢察大學第66項消防署及所屬第67項國家公園署及所屬第68項移民署第69項空中勤務總隊軍照列第211項海洋運用會務列數第212項海巡署及所屬第213項海洋保育署第214項國家海洋研究院軍照列宣讀完畢暫請保留第三款"},{"start":13347.563,"end":13374.91,"text":"第3款規配收入第4項行政院無聯署第8項援助民族文化發展中心第9項各界委員會及所屬第12項不當黨產處理委員會第5項內政部第55項國土管理署及所屬第56項經濟署及所屬第57項中央警察大學第58項消防署及所屬第59項國家公園署及所屬第60項移民署第61項建築研究所第172項海洋保育中軍教練宣讀完畢"},{"start":13376.386,"end":13399.327,"text":"暫行保留第4款第4款財產收入第6項行政院第13項原住民組委員會第14項原住民族文化發展中心第15項客家委員會級所屬第16項中央學級委員會級所屬第20項交流委員會第76項內政部第77項國土管理署級所屬第78項警政署級所屬第79項中央警察大學"},{"start":13399.807,"end":13414.518,"text":"第80項消防署及所屬、第81項國家公園署及所屬、第82項移民署、第83項建築研究所、第84項公眾勤務總隊、第230項海巡署及所屬均照列宣讀完畢暫行保留第7款"},{"start":13415.1,"end":13443.052,"text":"第7款吉他收入 第6項行政院第13項原住民族委員會第14項原住民族文化發展中心第15項客家委員會及所屬第16項中央學群委員會及所屬第20項大陸委員會均策略第22項不到島產處理委員會無列屬第75項內政部第76項國土管理局及所屬第77項檢政局及所屬第78項中央檢察大學第79項消防局及所屬第80項國家公園局及所屬"},{"start":13443.772,"end":13462.727,"text":"第8一項移民署、第8二項建築研究所、第8三項公眾勤務總隊、第229項海洋委員會、第230項海水儲集所署、第231項海洋保育署、第232項國家海洋研究院、軍教列宣讀完畢暫請保留二歲數部分第二款"},{"start":13463.208,"end":13483.069,"text":"二、稅出部分第二款行政院主管第一項行政院照列本項通過決議39項第八項援助民族委員會照列本項通過決議62項第九項援助民族文化發展中心照列本項通過決議3項第十項客家委員會及所屬照列本項通過決議23項"},{"start":13485.612,"end":13494.256,"text":"第11項中央選舉委員會及所屬照列本項通過決議19項第9項當路委員會照列本項通過決議28項第17項不當黨產處理委員會照列本項通過決議9項宣讀完畢暫行保留第7款"},{"start":13504.932,"end":13522.034,"text":"第七款內政部主管第一項內政部照列本項通過決議25項第二項國土管理署級所屬照列本項通過決議20項第三項集政所級所屬照列本項通過決議45項第四項中央檢察大學照列本項通過決議4項"},{"start":13524.256,"end":13552.92,"text":"第5項消防署及所署照列本項通過決議37項第6項國家公園署及所署照列本項通過決議10項第7項移民署照列本項通過決議19項第8項建築研究所照列本項通過決議1項第9項公眾勤務總隊照列本項通過決議4項宣讀完畢暫請保留第24款"},{"start":13553.447,"end":13582.402,"text":"第24款海洋委員會主本第一項海洋委員會照列本項通過決議24項第二項海巡署及所屬照列本項通過決議16項第三項海洋保育署照列本項通過決議17項第4項國家海洋研究院照列本項通過決議3項有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整宣讀完畢暫行保留請宣讀教育"},{"start":13583.12,"end":13611.311,"text":"及文化委員會審查結果一稅入部分第二款教育及文化委員會一稅入部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第四項 中央研究院第九項 國立故宮博物院第十六項 核能安全委員會及所屬第八五項 教育部第八六項 國民及學前教育屬區照列第八七項 體育署無列數第八八項 青年發展署照列第八九項 國家圖書館無列數第九十項 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中部科學園區管理局照列本項通過決議八項第四項 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這欺騙人才是欺騙人 另外我永遠都站在坐在這裡好 他有在理事 學長楊碧雄他也有寫一些東西雖然對我來講 我感覺他的攻擊 我覺得我都無所謂因為每一個人都有發言的前提的義務我尊重你的發言 那我也不會說誰罵我 我就是自己的學長或是"},{"start":2550.698,"end":2560.87,"text":"讓跟他處得非常不愉快,尤其在選舉再集的時候,難免各黨對於他所比較在意的部分,比如中國介入選舉,這問題是很嚴重。"},{"start":2564.362,"end":2581.219,"text":"那當然這個讓陸委員要叫陸委員說明清楚,海軍會說明清楚,凍結,但後來他也撤案了。彼此都有這種現象,今天不管怎麼樣"},{"start":2582.711,"end":2609.343,"text":"也關於三年海區會、四年海區會的預算,因為黨團在開期的會議,我從來是不去開期的會議,所以很重大事情。所以我們黨團每天都有幹事長及書記長,那郭文亮也是一樣,三黨天天開期就罵我們,我們就回禁回去。這個地方每天也要保守會議,所謂的在黨公職、執行黨、執行黨當然必須忍受嘛。"},{"start":2610.644,"end":2633.626,"text":"在野黨挑戰執政黨,這是天經地義。那執政黨的回應也是天經地義。那我覺得大可不必如此做文章。當然今天比較就是說,他們提案是謝宥鴻委員簽的。也就是說他該黨的文章到底是正宗總召要簽名嗎?那這是不知道為什麼全部謝宥鴻簽名。"},{"start":2635.834,"end":2651.648,"text":"那於是乎我們的剛才市長就以這個東西來被協調委員有些維持,有些維持乃至於攻擊,那把吳亦寧找來了,那這個都是選舉操作啦"},{"start":2653.117,"end":2670.672,"text":"那像我當總召有習慣做提案要我簽名,但我們都會勾力啦。基本上比較不適合的我們內部會處理。那今天不管怎麼樣,第一個這沒有所謂不尊重院長。"},{"start":2671.738,"end":2687.205,"text":"那以院長不測,朝委長照的攻防,也沒有所謂不尊重立法院,都沒有。也沒有所謂不尊重朝委協商,只能勉強可以講說,這樣的話對於朝委協商分為會有些質辯而已啦。"},{"start":2691.367,"end":2711.784,"text":"我們常常在這裡吵一場,我們常常有跟邱永志、跟國民黨常常噢噢鬧,上個禮拜也跟邱英樹也噢噢鬧,這難免了吧。協商在之間大家有不同意見表達,只是講話聲量以及講話道理的問題來評斷這些事情而已。那這些都會直播了,誰都可以看得到。所以我比較傾向於就是說,"},{"start":2713.564,"end":2716.606,"text":"所以算起來這個禮拜一、二、三、四、五天,下禮拜一、二"},{"start":2744.248,"end":2760.403,"text":"一、二、三、一、二、七公共天。七個公共天我們要處理哪些事情?第一個,要把總預算先處理完畢。那總預算現在大概兩、三天按了,又不會再進一再一溝通。"},{"start":2761.536,"end":2790.349,"text":"那剩下我們還有法案要處理,包括防護稅條例,那本來今天要跟戰友要跟他們談有關守護稅扣除的問題,都要談嘛。所以還有一些法案還有預算,在這個七個共同點裡面要全部預完整。坦白講這本來就是一個非常緊迫的行為。那我估計也有要談到加班啊,等等問題。"},{"start":2791.55,"end":2812.321,"text":"那今天走了以後,勢必又壓縮了,剩下六個工作天,這是何其緊張的時候。我還在這裡,我今天有打電話跟陳明中講說,那這個擦槍走火的事情很難免的嘛。政治、工房、服務也要麻煩,也一定的。其實記者也沒有在說好話啦。"},{"start":2814.142,"end":2842.675,"text":"我常常被罵,但是我當了一個執政黨總召的話,我是覺得敵人攻擊是我身上的信章,我也不會憂慘畏懼每一個人都可以,這邊罵來罵去都可以,所以我還是在這裡很懇求拜託國民黨,不然再一次跑去還是請院長或是秘書長我們一起,假如今天不適合再回來的話"},{"start":2843.735,"end":2846.257,"text":"明天表決以後是不是有機會我們再回頭坐下來好好談?"},{"start":2860.732,"end":2883.818,"text":"我會找村民眾委員再去當面跟他溝通。我希望我們都有共同責任。雖然走了以後,剩下我們三個在這裡期待,這個要四個人才會成交,大家一起來見國民黨回來協商。這是我的基本立場。"},{"start":2886.439,"end":2910.368,"text":"有關之間的攻防我想我們不可能為了這個事情可以私下去溝通了解可以但是已經大家逼得罵來罵去就已經負損然所了那我還是會希望我們黨團在最後這一個禮拜的時間那委員之間彼此的"},{"start":2911.397,"end":2939.402,"text":"的工房還是少一點,要罵整個政黨對立的來談嘛,大家都都是董事嘛,也許有人再過幾天以後,休會以後,就在立法院已經以後再也不會見面,那所以還是臨時大家協商難免會有這樣,還是要雞熊下足"},{"start":2940.382,"end":2958.116,"text":"要對這個總預算、要對這個所有法案來負責,我們希望第十屆能夠在如期在19號以後,發一個美好的Ending,那把總預算以及法案該處理都處理完畢,以上。"},{"start":2963.581,"end":2991.158,"text":"這個我們的立場其實非常簡單因為總預算當然就是一定這個預算當然是一定要審那這個再怎麼樣的問題的話都應該到黨團協商這邊來談那這個另外一個就是說今天的第三案是有關這個停會案那我們當然再度表示反對因為你時間已經這麼緊迫的情況之下那你又"},{"start":2992.295,"end":2992.875,"text":"我剛剛看一下我是在轉貼媒體的報導"},{"start":3017.301,"end":3033.613,"text":"我轉貼媒體的報導那這不是輸贏的事情這是公事因為這個最低工資法那我的主張就是說應該跟CPI去做聯動那你的說法是說權力的擁有者不敢濫用權力這當然不對"},{"start":3034.914,"end":3051.045,"text":"這當然就是說你主要就是為什麼要有這個最低工資法當然是在法規範要拘束這個權力的擁有者然後讓他可以讓基本的勞工得到這個最起碼的一個確保那就是說有關你如果說"},{"start":3054.767,"end":3071.871,"text":"為這個現在又沒辦法審的情況之下那之後又有其他的預算案還有這個防護稅條例或者是說其他零零種種的法案的話那當然這個時間又會更壓縮所以就這部分的話又再加上"},{"start":3073.221,"end":3100.436,"text":"還要停會,到底剩下還有多少的時間可以去審這些法案跟預算,所以我覺得這個是應該是要非常謹慎的啦。好,謝謝。那邱總統,民眾?好,謝謝院長還有各黨代表。我想民眾黨的態度非常的明確,我們還是希望可以在法定會期內把總預算完成審查,這是基本的態度。"},{"start":3101.056,"end":3129.193,"text":"但是在整個朝野協商的過程因為現在主要當然面臨大選那各政黨都有非常多的政治攻防但是我們認為在總預算的部分因為老實講113年度的這個中央政府總預算後面到底是哪一個政黨執政其實都還不確定我希望大家還是比較用客觀理性的方式來去討論這樣的問題那包含立院黨團之間其實在協商的氛圍我個人是認為非常重要的"},{"start":3129.813,"end":3146.748,"text":"所以真的不必要的這種政治攻防跟這個所謂執政黨的委員去監督在野黨的委員的提案甚至拿出來做政治攻擊我認為這是大可不必因為預算的提案本來就是各政黨各委員身為民意代表基本的一個權益"},{"start":3148.189,"end":3148.549,"text":"三、研商議員提案"},{"start":3166.119,"end":3190.557,"text":"行業非營業基金看起來這個會計是沒有辦法但我們還是認為不應該為了選舉而帶動立法跟預算的監督那包含剛剛談到最低公司法跟囤房稅其實都要來去處理尤其是囤房稅2.0的這個房屋稅部分條文修正草案這個部分我們認為都應該在其實都要在這個月應該要把它去做完成所以針對停會的部分我們還是反對"},{"start":3191.838,"end":3215.766,"text":"再來針對這次的預算提案其實部會在跟我們協商的時候我們還是認為這個行政部會報告室可能這兩屆因為民進黨實質過半在溝通上我覺得還是比較強勢的很多的部分本來這個像財政部我們這次通案第一案當然沒有提到但是我還是簡單講一下針對這個常態型稅收超增保留的部分其實"},{"start":3219.908,"end":3247.226,"text":"公布今年前十個月的稅收三兆兩百二十三億全年的稅收估計將超過預算三千至三千七百億當時我們財政部中部長11月22號就來立法院質詢表示這個狀況稅客收入執行超過預算的部分會優先還債我想這是各黨的共識所以民眾黨這次在通案提案也有提要稅收"},{"start":3247.426,"end":3249.829,"text":"負稅署副署長陳慧琦在溝通的過程中表示財委會已經決議"},{"start":3262.463,"end":3281.369,"text":"在這個部分增列150億而且已經成立稅收估測專案小組因此明年的稅收時增數與預算數應該不會相差太遠那經過溝通之後本黨團的這個提案他們建議是說可以改增列100億現場官員都沒有異議也允諾會文字修正"},{"start":3281.869,"end":3296.345,"text":"其實今天不知道為什麼12月11號馬上就是可能回去報告了可能這個部長是不是又不同意還是怎麼樣今天國會聯絡人來本黨團的時候表示財政部欠男伴女那該提案還是要保留"},{"start":3296.886,"end":3296.986,"text":"議員提案"},{"start":3314.542,"end":3332.248,"text":"三個月就要改六個月那這樣子的一個我覺得這樣的一個預算行政部會傲慢的溝通品質這並不是一個好的協商的一個狀況所以我想對於這種違反信任原則的溝通我深表遺憾我認為這不是一個好的溝通的方式"},{"start":3334.01,"end":3347.031,"text":"這個會期是第十屆最後一個預算會期我希望大家還是本著互信的原則跟實事求是的態度來溝通預算如果是這樣子的方式的話那我們後面就不要溝通了我們就全部用表決的方式好不好到以上"},{"start":3349.444,"end":3374.882,"text":"針對剛才兩位所談有基本問題就是說有關於總預算以及法案我們絕對能夠在庭會前如期完成這點請不要擔心都提早做很好的安排現在差不多該處理都處理所以用這個理由來說不能庭會要看到社會底我是覺得這個是不存在的不可以這樣"},{"start":3376.743,"end":3398.034,"text":"至於所謂剛談到一些個案的問題,在通案裡面來討論,尤其你們第一個案子提要增加稅務三千億,當然財政部這麼大一個數字談判持平的論,這個應該可以溝通的,有的時候不可能是增加稅務三千億。"},{"start":3399.475,"end":3419.806,"text":"至於多少,剩下多少,我們最後在這裡來談因為不管各部會,各部會的意見怎麼樣,要去跟你們溝通溝通結果有沒有結果,乃至於有結果,其實讓回到這裡來因為將來表決是黨團立法委員在表決,不是副會首長在表決所以我們都會負起責任來"},{"start":3421.566,"end":3435.411,"text":"結論是如您所講,實事求是的。那我們已經大概相處了四年,彼此都有良好的互信基礎吧。應該怎麼溝通大家都很清楚。那剩下的部分就是說報告是先……"},{"start":3438.632,"end":3454.378,"text":"所以說先去還債還是要怎麼處理,那個都有一定的法基礎。當然各黨有他偵測性的看法。我覺得現在就進入"},{"start":3458.3,"end":3480.67,"text":"通關的主條討論的話我當然也歡迎但是國務黨不在那我看法就是說請各位放心我們不要為了不停會而不停會絕對能夠在49號以後所有事情能夠完成我是負擔負責在處理所有法案的進度包括從委員會一開始有關停會就是說"},{"start":3482.531,"end":3508.939,"text":"一個月以前就提出,我們知道這個東西要大家都同意有點困難那要兩大黨都同意你們都不同意,那只有明年表決嘛,已經時間到了啊這照藝術程序來講,也都一定要處理因為我們必須負責整個議程的順利,能夠順利完成所以大家還是心明氣合啊因為總預算剛才有講到就是說"},{"start":3510.816,"end":3537.401,"text":"每一黨都想說明年選舉結果來當總統除非說是沒有希望要總預算隨便處理那到底誰用得到用不到還不知道那通常在最後一個每一屆的最後會期要選舉總預算處理的時候大家都都會如期完成的"},{"start":3538.221,"end":3556.134,"text":"通常三點數也固定上會比較保守,比較保守。我覺得我們明天是不是想辦法再回來,大家吵吵協商。有關同行稅大概差一點不多,法案的差一點不多。"},{"start":3559.156,"end":3583.074,"text":"法案比較好處理。預算的話,你說大家都要擺盪,就提了幾千個案子,然後來卡住,那不能通過。這個選民會看待的。台灣老百姓我會看待。所以說,院長我們大家一起努力,來跟國民黨談,明天還是要回來處理。但是明天我們希望第一個要談什麼?談三減數多少。這是最關鍵。"},{"start":3584.295,"end":3603.444,"text":"雖然是談好的時候,當然大家都知道後面怎麼處理,還有通關怎麼處理,有些違反計畫算多少、小新計畫算多少這一路的消息主席總坐在那裡,他一定有辦法把各位的喜酒弄得一個天衣無縫的表格出來,一毛錢都不會差的好不好"},{"start":3604.244,"end":3615.735,"text":"所以今天很遺憾,當然遺憾歸遺憾,這個是我們必須承受的,也必須忍耐,期待明天我們能夠在下面,來見面好好來談。"},{"start":3618.854,"end":3641.162,"text":"好 那就 謝謝大家 我在這邊跟大家報告一下因為我們會期總是到12月31號之前要結束尤其這一個會期是預算會期所以我們最好大家全力以赴 盡量溝通協調"},{"start":3642.282,"end":3661.813,"text":"所以我在這邊就有四點向大家報告第一點有關預算案部分請各黨團還是要繼續多溝通並能在座會期完成預算案的三讀程序這個是第一點第二點有關扁院擴建案"},{"start":3662.373,"end":3675.217,"text":"如果各黨團沒有反對意見的話,貶案原則上貶借要完成,如果沒有完成,我們就下一屆繼續處理。第三,有關於停會案,請各黨團繼續溝通,後續則依議事規範進行處理。第四,另外,貶會期是預決算會期,"},{"start":3689.841,"end":3698.771,"text":"希望預算案大家一定要繼續溝通至於結算案結算報告案也請各黨團都遵守考量"},{"start":3708.078,"end":3725.389,"text":"下屆反正 反正下屆要尊重新的委員嘛 不能在這裡做任何決議都沒有用嘛還是要尊重新的委員 繼續討論沒有關係啊但是要尊重新的委員啦 普通事情都是這期不聯繫的嘛反正院長你還要做事我會支持你啦"}]}},{"id":"148985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720292c03bf0ae76a9efb94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a032268624459ca2ade4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:08:07 - 12:23:07","影片長度":"00:15:00","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":900,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:23:07+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:08:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時8分）謝謝召委，有請內政部林右昌部長，還有警政署黃署長。"],["主席：林部長、黃署長請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長、署長，有幾個問題要來就教跟建議。目前我們各縣市地方警察局的設置標準，是按照各地方警察局的轄區人口數核算設置的員額，再分別以面積、機動車輛數還有犯罪率去核算員額的增置，那以目前來看，直轄市350人設置一個員額，省轄市跟轄區人口50萬以上或區內有國際機場、港口的縣市，500人就多一個就對了，其他各縣市警察局人口就以700人來設置一個員額，其他的部分我就不再贅述了。如果按照轄區人口數跟面積來做基礎，並且以轄區內的犯罪率等一併考量來增加員額，確實是一個好方法，可是本席認為這中間有一個盲點，署長，你聽聽看，就是目前警政署統計轄區人口數都是以內政部的戶口統計月報為基礎，可是像林部長，可能因為你本來是基隆市市長，戶口可能在那裡，擔任部長後在臺北上班，但全臺走來走去，甚至還有很多北漂族、南漂族，戶籍跟真正的居住地其實是不一樣的。本席是認為以新北市來看，新北市人口數403萬594人，但是根據電信信令人口的統計資料，平日夜間新北市就高達440萬4,882人，這是一個有一段差距的數字。目前設置規則裡面的盲點就是如果按照轄區人口數，到了夜間的高人口數尖峰時段，可能一個員警平均照顧的人數就會上升，當然就會增加員警執勤上的負擔，這就是本席今天想要請教署長的，目前員警設置規則存在這樣一個盲點，我具體建議，既然內政部現在都已經有統計資料，那警政署是不是把它納入參考去做微幅調整，來達到更好的平衡，請教署長。"],["黃署長明昭：謝謝委員關心這個議題，我想我們剛剛所設置的標準，除了人口面積、車輛數、犯罪率以外，當然還要包含治安要點要維持的，還有特勤的頻率，這會動員滿多人力的。所以你看為什麼臺北市相對的警力數會比新北市還高一點，但是它人口數還是少，這就是因為有考量到其他因素所做的編制。剛剛您所提醒的確實是一個盲點，請容我們會後來研議，夜間人數增加那麼多，但警力還是維持平時的警力數，是不是要做一個微調，我們再來研議。"],["莊委員瑞雄：因為我們畢竟有這個標準，人口在尖峰時段也確實有那麼多，這又不是無中生有，警力的配置、對員警執勤上的負擔，你去做一個調整，我覺得才是與時俱進。"],["黃署長明昭：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長請回。","我要請教部長的就是政府如何去訂定合理的房屋貸款成數，你們應該看到了，昨天你也被問到，在野黨總統候選人侯友宜提出了一個政見，喊出購屋貸款提升到1,500萬，貸款比率100%，前5年只須償還利息，政府再補貼0.5%。這個周末我看侯友宜在造勢的時候除了宣傳他的政見以外，他還痛批說你跟年輕人距離太遠，說執政黨完全不瞭解年輕人的痛苦。這個我聽了是很不以為然，為什麼很不以為然呢？你說貸款1,500萬頭期款全部都由政府來負擔，我如果是年輕人，我聽到會覺得很爽，你知不知道？我聽起來我會很「茫」，會想哪有這麼好的，都不用準備錢就可以買房子了？可是冷靜下來以後想一想，這是一顆毒蘋果，為什麼是一顆毒蘋果呢？假設都在不升息的情況之下，而且貸款的金額是1,500萬，以臺銀現在的房貸2.06%來計算，前5年政府補貼0.5%，就是2.06%減掉0.5%，剩下1.56%，那每一期本利和差不多1萬9,500元，當然前5年本是0；5年過後政府補貼0.125%，就是2.06%減掉0.125%，就等於1.935%，每一期還款本利和會高達6萬3,000元，夭壽！5年後除非薪水有辦法一直增加，你知道嗎？這個政策落實了以後，我反而會擔心，提出這個政策的人，年輕人會喜歡，可是你讓他去沉澱以後，他會覺得真的可以嗎？譬如美國金融危機就是一個次貸危機，前5年1萬9,500元，我看大多數人都付得起，年輕人也會開心，但是第6年以後負擔將近3.2倍，轉售又綁10年，這對一個年輕人來說，我會覺得說除非我的薪水增加很多，不然會有更大的負擔。","所以我請教部長，對侯友宜這樣的主張，我很擔心會有當沖變成隔代沖的風險，前5年我負擔得起，第6年開始付3.2倍，買房以後，除非薪水有增加，或是去簽到「特仔尾」，或是有其他的投資收入，否則確實是會還款還到老以後，變成現在是在幫助年輕人，其實也會造成很大的負擔。尤其我更擔心的是什麼呢？我更擔心的就是，現在這1,500萬你把它當成一個門檻，我以後中古屋出售，變相都會抬高，如果我是建商，把它拉到1,500萬以後，成屋蓋出來就都要1,500萬啦！所以部長你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["林部長右昌：我想任何的購買行為都應該是理性的，第二個你必須要考慮的是可負擔。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["林部長右昌：衝動的購買行為，這個通常都是比較不好的，特別是購屋的金額很大。剛剛在講所謂的免頭期款並不是不用還，他還是要還，因為總……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["林部長右昌：因為總價並沒有改變……"],["莊委員瑞雄：頭5年讓你比較爽，都不用動這樣子。"],["林部長右昌：是，但是5年之後就會有還款的問題，因為會把原本你應該要還的全部加上來，也就是比起支付頭期款，你必須還更多錢，總價不變的狀況之下，在第5年之後。所以剛剛提到，如果是用1,500萬免頭期款來算的話，等於那個總價的金額大概是1,875萬，原本你要付375萬的頭期款，如果在這樣的狀況下不用付，但是5年之後你還是要回頭還那375萬的本金。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！"],["林部長右昌：所以他的負擔其實是更加重。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你擔憂的是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：我擔心的是，我們政府的政策必須要穩健；第二個，我們現在的方式都是鼓勵儲蓄，然後政府最後幫你一把，也就是有相關優惠利率的提供。你支付了所謂的頭期款之後，第一個是掂量自己購屋的能力，買適合的房子；第二個是你有真正能夠還款這樣子的能力之配套。這個時間是很長，因為還款的貸款期限大概是20到30年的時間，所以必須要考慮到整個合理的購買能力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：任何一個負責任的政府，要看看你要解決的到底是什麼啦！這一題要講的，其實也叫做居住正義，居住正義這個東西就是地方政府、中央政府，任何一個政府，它們全部都有責任。這就是怎麼樣，你知道嗎？地方政府應該做的事情，譬如社會住宅，新北市到最後等於後面幾乎都要停頓了，做不夠之後，它現在開始要競速、要飆車，我都很擔心這一題它會翻車啦！為什麼呢？你看它喔！政府一直在強調居住正義，本來我們要減輕年輕人跟租屋族的負擔，以社會住宅來看的話，第一階段，本來政府在幫忙地方政府、資金挹注，還幫忙找土地，譬如第一階段在臺北市我們補助48億；第二階段，在110年中央政府投入了直接興建社會住宅。","我們從修法面來看，這個我感受特別深刻，我在第8屆的時候都沒有人在談這個，是蔡政府上來，到第9屆我們才開始去談，2017年的時候我們去修住宅法，增訂中央主管機關為興辦的一個主體，以前是地方政府蓋，中央給你錢、幫你一起找土地，現在覺得不夠之後，我們把它修法，中央政府直接下場，我們也可以蓋。然後蔡政府上來以後，我相信很多的措施，包括你看連整個社宅法，我們不斷地去做修改，連社宅弱勢比例我們從10%升到30%，現在又要變成40%，上個月也已經放寬了嘛！育有未成年子女家庭符合社會住宅弱勢的資格，本來是3個，現在都把它放寬降低到2個。","所以我是認為，就這一條，部長剛才也在這裡正面回應，我都很擔心啦！一顆毒蘋果，但是一個很爽的政策，其實我一直在問部長要怎麼支持年輕人，我們也一直在說看能不能創一個基金，年輕的人來存錢，政府相對上我們幫忙補助他多少，利息的部分我就給你補貼，那是一個比較穩健的方式。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是沒有想到，侯友宜這麼能幹，一下子全部都免錢，這個講得喔！你看中央銀行在做信用管制的時候，我看它一波、一波、一波地這樣發，首購的話，你看現在買一間房子，貸款也只可以貸到七成五而已。而你現在不是，全部都不用！全都政府來！這個實在是要好好地、內政部真的要好好去把這個利弊講一下。","最後一個問題，主席不好意思喔！主席對我最好了，讓我把年輕朋友在擔心的這一個問題問完。很多租屋族，我上次也就教過花次長還有部長，就是我幾乎是立法院第一個針對租屋族的電費問題提出質詢的，我一直在追蹤這個問題。後續我也提過好幾次，終於讓台電去年初在帳單上增列了前年度平均電費，讓房東、房客有一個依據，你看我2021年開始在講這個，一直在追你們。但是根據租客聯盟的租屋狀況調查顯示，有高達四成租屋族的電費計算方式，仍然是按照房東規定的每度電費繳納，這個普遍都是超收，房客也只能咬牙接受。而今年度，我相信有更多委員一起來努力，就這個問題向台電提出質詢，本席也看到內政部上個月邀集各單位跟相關團體召開第二次座談，在談精進租電費的資訊及計收標準。我要請教部長，內政部連續兩次座談會裡面，有沒有更進一步的具體方向？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個會議是花次長主持的，相關的討論細節還沒有跟我報告，是不是容我會後請花次長再跟委員做說明？"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我是這樣認為，如果住宅租賃定型化契約的應記載跟不得記載事項裡面，「電費的上限為台電所定當月用電量最高級距之每度金額」改為「當期每度平均電費」，並且在租賃定型化契約裡面新增房東電費透明之義務，這樣來講的話，有辦法額外計算出來。除了內政部以外，台電現在也不斷在鼓勵房東裝置智慧電表，以及以單獨裝表的方式計算各間分租雅房使用的電度。未單獨裝表計費公共設施用電的房東，能夠要求他們提出合理電費單價的計算原則，向房客公開費用收取依據。我期待，部長說次長沒有向你報告，這個我們把它解決掉了……"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得對年輕朋友、那些租屋族來講才公平。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員提的這兩點意見，基本上我覺得是合理，我們應該是可以在這個定型化契約裡面把它律定，我想這對於整個的規範應該是有幫助。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我覺得應該去貫徹的地方就是，不然我作為房東，對於台電我就用那麼多而已，我弄一弄之後租給這些房客，我光是連電都賺他一筆……"],["林部長右昌：那就是變相加價。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是。好，部長，這點一定要努力把它完成，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：是，好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝莊委員。","接下來請江啟臣委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.20659375,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.880968750000001,"end":51.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.60471875,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.87096875,"end":89.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.77221875000001,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.96971875000001,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.95346875,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.87471875,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.34721875,"end":204.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.37909375,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.92721875,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.43784375,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.95909375000002,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.18534375000002,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.08346875,"end":237.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.85034375,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.45284375000003,"end":244.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.83659375000002,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.79784375000003,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.97909375,"end":252.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.12221875000003,"end":258.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.97784375000003,"end":269.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.06471875,"end":282.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.73846875000004,"end":279.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.56909375000004,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.81721875,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.03596875,"end":309.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.22721875,"end":315.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.33596875,"end":319.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.79534375000003,"end":327.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.09784375000004,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.57221875000005,"end":349.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.00159375000004,"end":352.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.61721875,"end":378.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.77346875,"end":395.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.73284375000003,"end":407.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.91659375,"end":409.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.51971875000004,"end":411.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.37159375000005,"end":413.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.97471875,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.35784375000003,"end":422.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.37409375000004,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.39471875000004,"end":432.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.85784375000003,"end":442.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.13471875000005,"end":451.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.68659375000004,"end":449.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.57221875000005,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.74096875000004,"end":452.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.91784375000003,"end":465.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.76409375000003,"end":476.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.39534375000005,"end":498.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.70471875000004,"end":495.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.03784375000004,"end":496.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.75471875000005,"end":499.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.73346875000004,"end":541.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.1784687500001,"end":550.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.13471875,"end":555.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.14659375,"end":557.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.68221875,"end":574.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.6415937500001,"end":575.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.5022187500001,"end":576.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.4978437500001,"end":580.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.1215937500001,"end":582.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.3828437500001,"end":585.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.15034375,"end":597.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.4397187500001,"end":613.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.57221875,"end":620.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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這麼好都不用存錢就可以買房子可是呢你把它冷靜下來以後你把它想一想這個是一顆毒蘋果為什麼它是一個毒蘋果呢假設 假設"},{"start":292.128,"end":296.429,"text":"都在不升息的情況之下而且貸款的金額是1500萬一台銀你看以台銀現在來看喔台銀現在的房貸是2.06%來計算前5年你去補貼0.5%的話就是說你2.06減掉0.5剩1.56"},{"start":310.333,"end":327.553,"text":"那每一期你要這個本利合本利合差不多一萬九千五那個本當然前五年是零啦九千五那如果五年過後你補貼零點一二五就是二點零六百分之二點零六減掉零點一二五"},{"start":328.214,"end":329.515,"text":"這個政策落實了以後我反而會擔心"},{"start":343.63,"end":348.352,"text":"提出這個政策的人年輕人會喜歡可是呢你讓他去沉澱以後他會覺得說噢甘湯為什麼我說落實以後造成像比如說美國的金融危機就是一個次貸危機你前5年你19500大多數人我看都付得起年輕人也會開心但是這個第6年以後負擔超過是將近3.2倍"},{"start":365.9,"end":370.124,"text":"又轉授又綁10年。」這對我這個年輕人來說,我感覺說,對我身體是增加很多,不然還會更大一個負擔。所以我請教部長的就是說,對我有一所主張這樣,我都很擔心變成說當沖,會變成隔代沖的一個風險。前5年我負擔得起,第6年開始負點3.2倍買房以後啊,"},{"start":389.702,"end":394.287,"text":"薪水若不增加或是我來去簽到地上賣或是我有其他投資的收入的話那個確實是緩緩緩到老以後變成說現在在幫助年輕人其實也會造成很大的負擔尤其我更擔心的是什麼呢我更擔心的就是說你現在這1500萬你把它當成一個門檻我要中古屋出售"},{"start":412.561,"end":420.479,"text":"變相都會抬高會有抬高到一直搞不好我如果建商我拉我把他拉到一千五以後我企出來成屋我企出來就都要一千五萬所以柏中你看我是怎樣"},{"start":424.611,"end":448.891,"text":"我想任何的購買的行為都應該是理性的然後第二個你必須要考慮可負擔那衝動的一個購買的行為這個通常都是比較不好的那特別是購物這個金額的這個金額數很大那剛剛在講所謂的免投期款並不是不用還他還是要還因為總價並沒有改變"},{"start":454.536,"end":471.07,"text":"但是五年之後就會有還款的問題因為他會把原本你應該要還的全部加上來也就是你會比要支付頭期款你必須還更多的一個錢在總價不變的一個狀況之下在第五年之後"},{"start":471.87,"end":497.15,"text":"所以剛剛提到如果說是用1500萬免頭期款來算的話等於那個總價的金額大概是1875萬那原本你是要付375萬的一個頭期款但是如果是在這樣的狀況下不用付但是5年之後你還是要回頭還那個375萬的一個本金所以他的負擔其實是回家的所以你擔憂的是什麼"},{"start":499.821,"end":512.979,"text":"我擔心的是我們政府的一個政策必須要穩健那第二個是我們現在的一個方式都是鼓勵儲蓄然後政府最後幫你一把"},{"start":514,"end":540.438,"text":"也就是你有相關的一個優惠利率的一個提供那在這個你支付了這個所謂的頭期款之後第一個是掂量自己的購物的能力買適合的房子第二個是你有真正能夠還款的這樣子一個能力的一個配套那這個時間是很長因為還款的貸款期間大概是20到30年的時間所以必須要考慮到整個的合理的一個購買能力"},{"start":541.278,"end":557.057,"text":"任何一個負責任的政府你要看看你要解決的到底是什麼這一題其實我也要講的其實也叫做居住正義居住正義這個東西就是地方政府、中央政府任何一個政府它全部都有責任這就是怎樣你知道嗎就是你應該地方政府應該責的事情"},{"start":561.102,"end":567.326,"text":"像譬如說社會住宅你新北市搞不好你的店鋪都要停頓了這沒搞到你現在開始要競速、要飆車我都很擔心這一題它會翻車啦為什麼呢你去把它看啦我們政府一直在強調居住正義就是說問題咧我們要減輕年輕人跟租屋主的一個負擔以社會住宅來看的話第一階段本來政府"},{"start":583.436,"end":595.331,"text":"在幫忙地方政府資金挹注還幫忙去找土地譬如說第一次在台北市我們撥走40倍第二次在110年中央政府投入了直接興建社會住宅我們從修法裡面來看這個我感受特別深刻我到第8屆的時候都沒有人在談這個"},{"start":601.579,"end":603.86,"text":"是蔡政府上來到第9屆我們開始去談那110、100就2017年的時候我們去修這個住宅法這增訂中央主管機關為新辦的一個主體就是說以前地方政府去中央給你錢給你賺土地現在我們覺得不夠了我們把它修法中央政府直接去下場我們也可以去蓋"},{"start":621.187,"end":633.058,"text":"然後蔡政府上來以後我相信的很多的一個措施包括你看我們連整個社宅法我們不斷的去做一個修改連社宅的一個弱勢比例我們從10%升到30%現在要變40%電鍋也已經放寬了所以欲有未成年子女家庭複合社會住宅弱勢的資格本來是3個現在都放寬降低到"},{"start":645.709,"end":647.812,"text":"2個所以我是認為這條這條補充理論在這裡正面回應我都很擔心一顆毒蘋果但是一個很爽的政策其實我實在是"},{"start":658.51,"end":660.932,"text":"一直在問部長說要把年輕人這樣倒幾次我們也一直在說看可不可以創一個基金我年輕的我來簽字政府相對我們就幫他補助多少理責的部分我就幫你做一個補貼那就是一個比較穩健的方式但是沒有想到 齁齁齁 他們給他這麼厲害發一個 全部都不用錢"},{"start":679.985,"end":688.829,"text":"這個講的齁中央政府你看你看那個中央銀行在做信用管制的時候我看那一波一波一波的這樣發首購你看他現在他買一間房子大家看你現在我們如果他買一間房子大家看我們一個75年了可以大家75年了你現在不是全部都不用建屋都來這個實在是要好好的去內政部要好好的去把這個利弊喔"},{"start":703.875,"end":711.818,"text":"真的要去講一下另外最後一個問題主席不好意思我們這個主席對我最好的讓我把這一題把他那個年輕朋友在擔心的一個問題很多租屋主我上次也就教過花次還有部長就是說我們從立法院第一個我幾乎"},{"start":721.761,"end":725.625,"text":"針對這個租屋的租屋主的電費問題第一個提出這個質詢我一直在追蹤這個問題後續我也提過好幾次就是說終於讓台電在去年初在帳單上可以增列了前年度平均電費來讓房東房客有一個依據"},{"start":742.858,"end":762.023,"text":"但是根據整個租客聯盟的租屋狀況的調查顯示仍然有高達4成的租屋主的電費計算方式仍然是按照房東規定的每度的電費來做一個繳納這個普遍都是超收讓房客也只能咬牙去做這樣的一個接受那今年度呢"},{"start":762.583,"end":784.909,"text":"我相信也有更多的委員一起來努力這個問題向台電提出質詢本席也看到內政部上個月邀集各單位跟相關團體召開第二次的座談來談這個精進租電費的一個資訊及寄收的一個標準我要請教部長就是說你們內政部連線兩屆座談會裡面有沒有更進一步的具體的一個方向"},{"start":786.105,"end":803.849,"text":"我想這個會議是花次長主持的是他相關的討論的細節還沒有跟我報告是不是容我會後請花次長再跟委員做說明好 我是這樣認為啦如果說在這個住宅租賃定型化契約裡面你那個因記載跟不得記載事項裡面你那個電費的一個上限為台電所訂當月用電的一個最高級距的每度的一個金額改為當期每度的平均電費然後呢並且在租屋的一個"},{"start":815.171,"end":819.173,"text":"租賃的一個定型化契約裡面新增房東電費透明的一個義務那這樣來講的話有辦法來額外來計算出來除了內政部以外臺電現在也不斷在鼓勵房東來裝置這個智慧電表以及以單獨裝表的方式來計算各間的一個分租雅房的一個使用的一個電度也沒有單獨的裝置"},{"start":838.94,"end":842.022,"text":"計算公共設施用電的一個房東能夠要求他們來提出合理的電費單價的計算原則向房東來公開這個費用來收取這個依據我期待部長這個因為你說次長沒跟你報告有沒有這個我們把它解決掉啦我覺得對年輕朋友那些租屋主來講才公平啊"},{"start":857.173,"end":876.623,"text":"是,委員你提的這兩點意見基本上我覺得是合理那我們應該是可以在這個定型化契約裡面來做這個把它濾錠我想這個對於整個的一個規範應該是有幫助的是,我覺得應該去貫徹的地方就是說阿不,我做房東,我幫你帶電我用這麼多年,我種種的了,我做給這裡的房客我給他連電又給他賺一條是,變相加價了是"},{"start":884.367,"end":891.532,"text":"好部長這一點一定要把他努力把他完成了好不好是好好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝莊委員接下來請江啟臣委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"148984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720297ee3b523bd951fc494fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d11de6715aabe0185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴品妤","委員發言時間":"10:41:11 - 10:51:22","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":611,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:51:22+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:41:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["賴委員品妤：（10時41分）謝謝主席，麻煩主席有請內政部林部長。"],["主席：林部長請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["賴委員品妤：部長好。選戰目前到1月13號大概剩下三十幾天，大家都在做最後的衝刺，同時間我想我們相關的部會，特別是內政部這邊應該要上緊發條，為選舉該做的準備也不少。第一個就是我想問部長，因為其實這陣子，不只是這幾天，這陣子都會陸續看到各地的警方偵辦選舉賭盤的新聞，北從基隆、新北到屏東其實都有偵破組頭的消息。在這邊我要先稱讚警政署去偵查有成果，但我想很多選舉的手法都是環環相扣的，例如說地下賭盤，很多人可能會拿地下賭盤來閒聊，當作類似一種民調來參考，所以就有一種可能，也許會發生這種狀況是故意去用開讓幾萬票來暗示縮小差距或者是擴大差距來誤導民眾，這也是一個非常需要注意的趨勢。","另外，回到選舉，我想各界還是高度關注中國議題，有沒有中國的黑手伸進來介入臺灣的選舉，我想這個答案是肯定的，只是說到底是介入得多深、介入的樣態到底是什麼樣子。事實上先前我們也可以看到在APEC的會議中，拜登也罕見地向習近平明確地表達不希望中國干涉臺灣的選舉。連美國都有在掌握臺灣的動向了，臺灣自己呢？我可以說其實我們看到，最近滿多新聞都有提到包含臺北還有本席所在的新北，還有中部的彰化，其實都有出現里長到中國旅遊統戰團的現象，如果今天你說是單純的旅遊就算了，但為什麼都是里長？為什麼可以用比行情低廉非常多，極度低廉的費用，甚至是只要出機票錢去玩，這些都是必須要延伸去瞭解的問題點。我想請問部長，內政部這邊對於這個情形掌握到什麼樣的程度了？"],["林部長右昌：好，非常謝謝。我想有關於賭盤的部分，這個向來不是新鮮事，每一次選舉到的時候就有特定或者是有意圖的人士，意圖用賭盤來影響大選。我們在這一次整個的遏制賭盤的部分，我們特別是以六合彩的組頭來作為相關的重點對象，因為歷來都是由六合彩的組頭兼營，還有通訊網路下注的比例是最高的，所以我們警政署已經要求各警察機關結合清源3.0的工作計畫來進行相關的通報布建，主動來發掘轄內的簽注站有沒有相關的情形，所以也再次強調呼籲不要以身試法。目前9月20號到9月26號我們已經執行第一波全國同步的掃蕩賭博專案，現在、此時此刻我們正在進行的是第二波的專案掃蕩，在前次第一波的專案掃蕩期間，我們掌握具體的情資有149件，並且已經移送了77件98人。","其次，中國介選也從來不是新聞，只不過它介選的方式變得越來越隱晦而且越多樣，過去用賭盤來介選，或者是中國的資金介選，這個本來就是我們加強的一個重點。剛剛委員特別提到，有很多村里長被中國招待去旅遊，我們目前掌握蒐報的相關情資大概有51件或者是51團556人，目前已經有查獲的案件，正在偵辦當中。現在因為介選的方式很多，它不一定是直接介選，它也許用假訊息或是錯假訊息來擾亂、干擾大選，造成民眾對政府的誤解或是負面的情緒，我想這都是現在要特別注意的狀況。"],["賴委員品妤：是，這兩個問題雖然內容不一樣，但本質上都是在詢問您影響介選的狀況。我想落地接待這件事情就像你講的，這不是新鮮事、不是第一次聽到，甚至不要說里長，過去就有很多大學生在寒暑假被中國的大學招待過去旅遊、參觀，而且也都是非常低廉的費用甚至不用費用，可以去體驗住好、吃好的旅遊，本席以前在大學的時候也有被詢問過，當然是沒有去啦，但也被詢問過，當然大家都知道天下沒有白吃的午餐，哪有平白無故被招待這麼好的事情！","回到村里長的招待，找上里長主要是兩個原因，第一個是村里長本身的性質，他不是狹義的公務員，他領的是事務補助費，可能因此到中國入境不一定要事先申報。第二個，村里長就是最基層的民政單位，就像剛才部長自己提到的，他們大部分都跟選民往來密切，所以中國最能藉由村里長達到傳遞假訊息並且攏絡選民的任務。像我剛剛提到的、最近很多新聞也都有提到，這次彰化縣有特別集中跟頻繁的趨勢，報導裡也說到中國重慶市台辦從三個月分成三個梯次，招待彰化縣三百多位喔，非常多！三百多位村里長到當地旅遊，為什麼挑上彰化？有一說是比起一些有明顯政治傾向的地區，中部可能在政黨傾向上比較搖擺，所以這個看上去也是中國介選的考量。選戰只剩下三十幾天了，這件事情內政部真的要積極澈查，去瞭解各縣市村里長有沒有異常被招待赴中旅遊的狀況，剛才你也說在查，我在這邊要講、要督促，如果有這種明顯對價不相等的狀況，該送檢調偵辦的就要立刻送辦，千萬不要輕忽！","再來，我也想問黃署長，除了賭博跟被招待之外，買票、賄選這種不正當的選舉行為我們向來都嚴肅看待，可是之前我也跟警政署討論過，隨著時代的進步，買票、賄選已經不只是實體物品、給現金這種行為，其實我們常常說要查金流，看犯罪嫌疑人有沒有異常的款項進出帳戶，再去澈查來源作為犯罪的證據，以現在最新的科技發展來說，例如透過虛擬的NFT或是虛擬貨幣作為媒介，這些線上的、隱密的、難以追蹤的方式，請問署長這邊該如何處理？"],["黃署長明昭：是，就這些虛擬貨幣的幣流追查，警政署是訂定一個科偵人才的教育訓練計畫……"],["賴委員品妤：是，這我有看到。"],["黃署長明昭：我們預計一年要培訓500位，針對幣流的追查、追蹤方式進行教育訓練，這包含了所有的專家來授課，還包括金管會的專業人員來協助我們訓練這些同仁。"],["賴委員品妤：瞭解。我想這個虛擬貨幣，或許它的交易過程是隱密、加密的，但最後事實上還是要把這個貨幣兌現成各國的在地貨幣，所以如何透過比對領取帳戶的人別資料，進而研判是不是有異常賄選的可能性，這樣可能找得到樁腳，但是源頭的部分也是要加強。剛才署長講的這個計畫我有看到，請問一下，因為你說現在有在訓練，這些人有辦法在這次選舉就投入偵辦的實務嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：其實我們的科偵人才一直都在訓練，早在幾年前都已經訓練了，這500位是擴大他的訓練，所以之前已經訓練過的都可以投入這次選戰相關的幣流追查。"],["賴委員品妤：瞭解。上週在財政委員會也有委員問到防範虛擬貨幣介選的議題，我看到現場就有提案要求金管會研議大額通報的標準，這部分也要請刑事局加快訓練腳步，否則科技日新月異，要進入、趕上偵辦的實務如果需要跨單位合作溝通，比方我剛提到的金管會、法務部，其實也應該儘速處理，可以嗎？"],["黃署長明昭：好。"],["賴委員品妤：這部分要再麻煩內政部及警政署多多擔待了，謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["黃署長明昭：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請回座，謝謝賴委員。","接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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了那台灣自己呢"},{"start":113.038,"end":139.455,"text":"我可以說其實我們有看到就是說有新聞最近還蠻多新聞都有提到說包含台北還有本席所在的新北還有中部的彰化其實都有出現這個里長到中國旅遊統戰團的現象那如果今天你說是單純的旅遊就算了但為什麼都是里長為什麼可以用這個比行情低廉非常多極度低廉的費用甚至是只要出機票錢去玩"},{"start":140.076,"end":143.245,"text":"這些都是必須要延伸去了解的問題點我想請問部長內政部這邊對於這個情形掌握到什麼樣的程度了"},{"start":149.368,"end":167.617,"text":"非常謝謝我想有關於這個賭盤的部分這個向來不是新鮮事每一次選舉到的時候就特定或者是有意圖的人士意圖用這個賭盤來影響大選我們在這一次的一個"},{"start":173.66,"end":198.127,"text":"整個的一個二制賭盤的部分我們特別是以六合彩的一個主頭來作為我們相關的一個重點的一個對象因為歷來都是由這個六合彩的主頭經營還有這個通訊的一個網路下注的比例是最高的所以我們本署警政署已經要求各警察機關結合青圓3.0的工作計畫"},{"start":201.868,"end":222.065,"text":"來進行相關的一個通報的一個部件主動來發掘在轄內的這個簽署站有沒有相關的一個情形所以也再次強調呼籲不要以身來釋法那我們目前到9月20號到9月26號我們已經執行第一波的全國同步的一個掃蕩賭博的這個專案"},{"start":225.027,"end":240.066,"text":"現在此時此刻我們正在進行的是第二波的一個專案掃蕩那在前次第一波的專案掃蕩的部分期間呢我們掌握具體的一個請職有149件那並且已經移送了77件98人"},{"start":242.188,"end":266.776,"text":"那其實中國借選也從來不是新聞只不過它借選的一個方式變得越來越隱晦而且越多樣那過去這個用賭盤來借選或者是說中國的一個資金來借選那這個本來就是我們加強的一個重點那第二剛剛委員特別提到有這個很多的所謂的村里長"},{"start":267.676,"end":287.882,"text":"被中國招待去進行相關的一個旅遊相關的一個情資我們目前掌握收報的這樣的一個情資大概有51件或者是51團556人目前已經有查獲的一個案件正在偵辦當中"},{"start":290.011,"end":312.066,"text":"那當然現在因為這個競選的方式很多那他不一定是直接競選他也許用假訊息或者是錯假訊息來擾亂或者是干擾大選那造成民眾對政府的一個誤解或者是負面的一個情緒我想這個都是現在我們特別注意的狀況因為其實這兩個問題雖然這個內容不一樣但本質上都是在"},{"start":316.829,"end":343.386,"text":"詢問您這個影響屆選的狀況因為我想落地接待這件事情就像你講的這不是新鮮事不是第一次聽到那甚至說不要說里長啦過去就有很多這個學生大學生在寒暑假被中國的大學招待過去旅遊啊、參觀而且也都是非常低廉的費用甚至是不用費用然後去體驗這個住好、吃好的旅遊甚至本席以前在大學的時候也有被詢問過當然是沒有去啦但也被詢問過"},{"start":344.706,"end":367.661,"text":"當然大家也都知道天下沒有白吃的午餐哪有平白無故被招待這麼好的事情不過回到這個村里長的招待啦會找上里長當然主要是兩個原因嘛第一個就是說村里長本身他的性質他不是說他不是狹義的公務員他領的是事務補助費可能因此這個到中國入境不一定要事先申報啦"},{"start":368.522,"end":391.82,"text":"那第二就是村里長就是最基層的民政單位那其實就像剛才部長自己提到了啦他們大部分都跟選民往來密切所以最能夠中國最能夠藉由村里長來達到傳遞假訊息並且籠絡選民的任務那其實像我剛提到最近很多新聞也都有提到說這一次彰化縣有特別集中跟頻繁的趨勢啦那"},{"start":393.982,"end":412.975,"text":"報導裡也有說到中國重慶市台辦從這個三個月分成三個梯次招待彰化縣300多位喔非常多300多位村里長到當地旅遊那為什麼挑上彰化有一說是說比起這個一些有明顯政治傾向的地區中部可能在政黨傾向上比較搖擺啦"},{"start":414.676,"end":428.06,"text":"所以這個其實也是中國看上去借選的考量所以這件事情選戰只剩下30幾天了這件事情內政部真的是要積極的徹查啦去瞭解就是說各縣市的村里長有沒有異常被招待附中旅遊的狀況那剛才你也有說在查嘛"},{"start":429.981,"end":447.352,"text":"那我這邊要講要督促就是說如果有這種明顯的對價不相等的狀況那該送檢調偵辦的就要立刻去送辦千萬不要去輕忽啦那再來是不是我也想問黃署長這邊啦因為除了這個賭博跟被招待之外買票啊、會選這種"},{"start":449.173,"end":470.278,"text":"不正當的行為向來在選舉我們也都要嚴肅看待可是其實之前我也有跟警政署討論過隨著時代的進步買票賄選已經不是只有這種實體的物品給現金這種行為其實我們常常再說要查金流看犯罪嫌疑人有沒有異常的款項進出賬戶再去徹查他的來源作為犯罪的證據"},{"start":471.278,"end":494.387,"text":"那如果以現在最新的科技發展來說例如透過虛擬的NFT或者是說虛擬貨幣作為媒介這些線上的隱秘的難以追蹤的方式請問署長這邊該如何處理是就虛擬貨幣這些幣流的一個追查警政署是訂定一個科真人才的一個教育訓練計畫"},{"start":495.868,"end":510.376,"text":"那我們預計會有一年要培訓500位對避留的一個追查追蹤的方式來進行教育訓練那這個也包含了所有的專家來收購還包括金管會的一個專業人員來協助我們訓練這些同仁"},{"start":513.288,"end":532.717,"text":"了解對因為我想這個虛擬貨幣他的或許啦他的交易過程是隱秘加密的但是最後他事實上還是要把這個貨幣去兌現成各國的這個在地貨幣嗎所以如何去透過比對領取的帳戶的人別資料那進而去研判是不是有異常會選的可能性那"},{"start":533.457,"end":562.357,"text":"可能找得到樁腳但是源頭這個部分其實也是要加強那我剛才這個署長講的這個計畫我也有看到啦那我想請問一下因為你說現在有在訓練嘛那這些人有辦法在這次選舉就投入偵辦的實務嗎其實我們的科證人才一直都在訓練早幾年前已經都在訓練那這500位是擴大擴大他的一個訓練所以這個之前已經訓練過都可以投入到這次的一個選戰相關的必有的一個追查"},{"start":562.83,"end":591.609,"text":"了解因為上週其實在財政委員會也有委員有問到說防範虛擬貨幣借權的議題那其實當時我看到說現場就有提出提案要求金管會要研議大額通報的標準那這部分也是要請有請許志祺加快腳步啦訓練腳步否則這個科技日新月異那要去這個進入感上應用在偵辦的實務上如果需要跨單位啦比方說我剛提到的金管會嘛法務部合作溝通的其實也應該要儘速處理"},{"start":593.43,"end":599.133,"text":"可以嗎?那這個部分就是要再麻煩內政部還有警政署這邊多多擔待了OK,謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席,謝謝好,請回座,謝謝賴委員接下來請陳益臻委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"148981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720298fbfca13a5d663ef94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a03225378fc16f52fc0c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"13:15:34 - 13:22:41","影片長度":"00:07:07","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":427,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:22:41+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T13:15:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（13時15分）謝謝召委。請內政部長。"],["主席：林部長請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。今天我還是要提一個上次已經質詢過的議題想要來請教部長，就是有關土地鑑界的問題。關於土地鑑界有一個案子，目前已經訴訟超過十年，就是竹北一個地政的案子。這個案子上上禮拜監委有跟本席碰面，當面跟他說明，在說明之後，其中一個很主要的爭議就是在陳情人蓋房子之前到底有沒有鑑界，你可以看到這個圖是房子蓋好之後去做保存登記的鑑界。興建之前有沒有鑑界？因為地政單位這邊給法院的資料是蓋房子之前沒有鑑界，但是根據提出的一些資料，監委看了以後，發現在蓋房子之前，有90年的鑑界資料及91年的鑑界資料。我要跟部長詢問的是，因為現在給法院的證據也是地政單位給的，如果地政單位這邊有不當的證詞，像部長現在看到這個案子就是竹北地政單位一直告訴法院說當事人沒有鑑界，但是在蓋房子之前，包括90年、89年都有鑑界資料，而且和92年蓋好房子時的鑑界資料都一樣。如果地政單位沒有給法院正確的資料，包括沒有給監察院正確的資料，會導致陳情人的權益受損。內政部現在有關土地鑑界的機制，包括重測、圖解數值化這些問題都很容易造成爭議，所以就會訴訟，也因此本席接到非常多的陳情案例。我想請問部長，這個要怎麼解決呢？假如地政單位球員兼裁判，提出錯誤的證詞，會讓陳情人的權益嚴重受損。我剛剛講的這個案子的確就是，因為陳情人的房子面臨被拆的問題，現在監察院的監委願意重新調查，本席認為當一個受害者沒有能力表達正確的資訊，而且地政機關不願意提供資料的時候，這個鑑界會造成很多不幸，比如重測之後整個地界改了，重測的時候沒有通知多數的人去指界，而是由地政機關去協助指界的時候，的確有很多地界都被改了，被改的時候有些人的地變多了，有些人的地卻變少了，所以爭議就一直產生，而法院訴訟的這種案子也就變得很多。本席想要講的是，像這樣的情況，我們在指界的時候要怎麼去修正或檢討這個問題？"],["林部長右昌：非常謝謝委員，雖然這個個案我不是非常清楚，不過地籍上面的偏差的確是有的，因為技術的因素或是年代登記的因素，這種狀況是有的。剛剛委員特別提到球員兼裁判或是地政人員不願意提供正確的資料，這應該是不容許的，地政人員必須提供正確的資料才對。剛才委員提到好幾個問題，包括他之前是不是有鑑界、之後是不是有偏移的狀況，這可能都會分涉到不同層次的問題。"],["陳委員椒華：部長，你剛剛說的是不允許，請問我們有什麼樣的防弊機制？畢竟鑑界也是地政機關，法院作證也是地政機關，它當然不願意承認它有任何疏失嘛！還有剛剛所說有關指界的部分，像彰化二水或二林那邊就有一個案例，就是6,500戶當中只有200戶實際去指界，所以重測做出來的結果是大偏移，我現在希望內政部要重新檢討。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["陳委員椒華：就是已經做的部分如果有嚴重的偏移，就不應該敷衍、閃躲，不願意面對事實。另外是在重測的時候，怎麼去修相關的作業指引或辦法，也就是指界至少要有一半以上才能進行重測，不然這樣的重測結果等於造成另外一個大災難。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝委員。有關地政的測量及指界，地政機關都有相關規定，今天因為地政司沒有到……"],["陳委員椒華：我知道。"],["林部長右昌：是不是我再請地政司向委員報告。另外，委員剛剛特別提到是不是有相關的規定或指引需要加以修正，這部分我也會跟地政司討論。"],["陳委員椒華：對，就是要提醒部長這個部分一定要重新檢討、修正，避免更多的錯誤發生。"],["林部長右昌：是，我會請地政司再跟我報告。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回座。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員林文瑞、陳琬惠、邱臣遠所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5453437500000002,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.64596875,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.83909375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.20471875,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.461593750000002,"end":30.794093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.148468750000003,"end":36.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.58221875,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.665968750000005,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.16221875,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.19096875,"end":58.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.890968750000006,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.15596875,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.55159375000001,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.73284375,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.68534375,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.60471875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.60409375,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.36471875000001,"end":108.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.76909375000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.48971875000001,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.64534375000001,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.87721875000001,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.88534375,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.43784375000001,"end":128.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.68596875,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.77659375000002,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.07596875000002,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.35846875000001,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.46721875,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":156.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.00596875000002,"end":168.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.70909375000002,"end":173.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.65784375,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.77971875,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.69034375,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.82346875000002,"end":194.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.13971875000001,"end":196.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.54034375,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.81409375,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.91034375,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.17159375,"end":208.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.75784375,"end":209.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.80409375000002,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.75284375,"end":215.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.65534375000001,"end":218.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.98409375000003,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.92409375000003,"end":228.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.75471875000002,"end":234.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.30221875,"end":238.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":241.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.00159375,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.52034375000002,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.06534375,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.62971875,"end":273.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.47346875,"end":279.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.36284375,"end":293.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.68971875,"end":297.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.57096875,"end":303.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.94971875000005,"end":321.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.34784375000004,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.51534375,"end":330.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.97909375,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.14096875,"end":360.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.63284375,"end":364.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.29471875,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.37909375000004,"end":364.83471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謝謝委員我想那個地震的測量還有它的紙戒其實我們地震機關都有相關規定其實因為地震師沒有到我知道我是不是"},{"start":402.504,"end":402.724,"text":"羅明財、羅明財委員不在"}]}},{"id":"148980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029294f3e1f074ccefd94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322883b0731a2b3b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:00:34 - 13:15:01","影片長度":"00:14:27","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":867,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:15:01+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T13:00:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1076,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時）謝謝主席。有請中選會、原民會、法務部，謝謝。"],["主席：李主委、夷將主委，還有林部長請。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：法務部。"],["主席：不好意思，林部長不用，黃次長請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。今天內政委員會特別安排行政中立的專報，我們也都知道公務人員行政中立法的主管機關應該是在銓敘部，因為今天也沒有來備詢，所以我就大概問你們三個部會。","首先我想要請教一下中選會李主委，請您看一下，因為在上上個禮拜同樣的時間、同樣的地點，在我質詢之後，聽說有幾位委員就原民會辦的一個叫文化健康站的實施計畫到底有沒有行政中立的問題做了一番質詢討論，所以我在這邊請教一下李主委，這個文健站的主辦機關是原民會，承辦的機關是縣市政府，協辦是區公所、鄉公所，執行的單位其實是人民團體，也就是所謂的協會，這個協會會聘僱一些人員，就是所謂的照服人員，那我請教一下李主委，這一些被聘僱的照服員，他們適用或者準用公務人員行政中立法嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員報告，中選會針對我們選務工作人員行政中立，我們是由銓敘部……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以我說今天銓敘部沒來嘛！所以……"],["李主任委員進勇：其他機關的人員這部分，因為不是我們職掌範圍之內，我們尊重權責機關的處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那請教一下原民會主委，文健站的照服員適用或準用公務人員行政中立法嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：正如剛剛委員所提到的，照服員是文健站執行單位進用的人員，所以對原民會來講，這個不是機關的聘用人員，他是民間人員……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就不是嘛！因為有人很關心，一而再、再而三的質詢，所以我也知道，你們在有委員質詢關心之後，今年的9月以及上一次質詢完的隔一個禮拜，你們也兩度發函給縣市政府以及文健站，這些內容我看到你們在今天的專報裡面也有寫到，就是希望避免於開站的期間為特定公職候選人公開站臺或協助拜票，也不應以文健站的名義帶長者去做候選人的競選活動，然後非上班時間，你們也要求應避免穿著文健站的背心去參加這些活動。那我請教一下，既然有人關心，我相信你們應該有去查了，有沒有查？有沒有查上次提到的那種情形？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：正如剛剛委員提到的，我們已經兩度發函，9月13號跟11月28號，按照相關法律的規範……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那有沒有去查？因為我記得那位委員他有要求要查。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：目前我們沒有收到任何的案子。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以沒有查到？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：沒有查到。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們來看一下，因為我是不會做這種事啦！雖然我被指控，但是我們看一下一段影片，這是公開的影片。就是那一位委員。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，這是文健站吧？他帶著另外一位平地原住民候選人，也公開穿著他候選人的背心，他說我要選立委了，我都是到文健站各地去拜票。這是他說出來的話。我們再看下一個，都是他質詢前的一個禮拜。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我要說的是，我們也沒有特別去在意這件事，為什麼？因為關懷長者，我們也很高興，而且真的要去追究適不適用公務人員行政中立法，說實在你們也回答不出來，也沒有辦法究辦，那有沒有違反你們一而再、再而三講的規定？好，如果真的有違反，我相信你們的作法也就是逕行糾舉後，有可能這個協會就列入不適合的辦理單位。好，我們繼續看，多少年來，這是去年扶植的這些候選人，你看！到每一個文健站發快篩，長年累月去發物資，我們也都沒有人講這個，不會去指責，因為關心老人家是好事，雖然我沒有這個能耐、能力，沒有這個財力廣結善緣，但我也是祝福啊！因為多一點人關心老人是好事啊！但是我覺得不能因為在很多縣市暢行無阻，因為在某個縣市，我就直接講了，因為他也直接講了，屏東縣政府要求文健站員工輔選，在國會殿堂直接點名，因為沒有辦法在這個縣暢行無阻，就直接指控伍麗華跟這些員工說：不支持我，你們就離開，就沒有工作。更糟糕的是還製作影片散布，你們怎麼會容許這些行為？我請教一下，因為他有要求調查，有沒有跟屏東縣政府調查？有沒有掌握到有人指控我說不支持就離開的？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：剛剛我也講過，到目前為止，沒有收到任何要求調查的案子，是沒有的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我的個性大家都知道，我也敢拍胸脯保證，我是很客氣的人，我很知道分寸在哪裡，我不會幹這些事。今天的備詢沒有邀請行政中立法的主管機關銓敘部，我覺得沒有辦法充分討論，但最起碼我想說的是，文健站的這些照服員、工作人員不是公務人員，他們享有參與政治及言論的表意自由，這樣子胡亂指控，還後製影片散布，他的意圖不是意圖使某人不當選，要不然就是意圖使那一些族人不敢發聲。我們是民主、自由的法治國家，一再的在國會殿堂上演這種荒唐的戲碼，還要指派議員在地方議會也做這樣的質詢，我覺得原民會作為原住民事務的主管機關，這個部分你們要拿出態度。我其實是想要藉這個機會，讓那些開始害怕的族人知道，行政中立法的規範是適用或準用公務員，並且有他的強度，並不是一般人民，憲法保障我們很多的自由，我們有參政權、選舉權，即便是一般的公務人員，也有參與政治的權利，也有表意的自由，我覺得不需要做到這個樣子，我們很多族人都非常傷心、非常難過、非常害怕，不應該是這個樣子。","既然是公務人員，在這個地方我們就來講好了，我們看一些真正的公務人員，這個都是從新聞隨便抓取的，有一個市長參加某個市府的官方活動，公開說自己正在參選總統，還發表選舉語言，請問一下，我要問誰啊？法務部，有無違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，委員所提的違法是指違反行政中立法，還是指違什麼相關法？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：各種法。"],["黃次長謀信：如果是行政中立法的話，那就不是本部所主管的法規……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以啊！今天不叫行政中立法的主管機關來，我就不懂啊！我們要討論這個法，結果主管機關沒有來，我就不知道要怎麼問啊？"],["黃次長謀信：如果是有沒有違反選罷法相關刑罰規定，那要由個案判斷；至於刑罰部分，法務部是主管機關沒有錯，檢察官應該會就這個個案去處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，像這個案例，里長出面用里民聚會的名義借場地，結果最後是辦候選人的後援大會，有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：委員提的還是行政中立的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那問中選會主委，他是選務工作吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：他不是我們的選務工作人員，里長不是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以就問不出來嘛！要找銓敘部來，是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：其他權責機關。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那再講一個好了，參加官方活動，然後搭配當選的歌曲，在那個地方，公務人員配合喊「凍蒜！凍蒜！」有沒有違法？大家都沒有辦法，因為都不是主管機關。","好，原民會，今天我們也要審查原住民族工作權保障法，我自己的版本就是希望增加就業機會，讓更多人受益，所以我們希望修法，不要限於約聘僱等5類人員，那個太低了，我們希望開放所有職缺，請教原民會，可不可行？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：這個是我們目前送大院的版本，就是希望公部門進用的部分不應該只限約僱人員，這樣沒有辦法提升我們的收入，因為約聘僱人員一般收入比較低，我們希望有更好的保障，讓原住民在公部門可以工作。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，我們都很期待，那今天能不能出委員會？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：希望大院支持行政院的版本。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果這個法案修法通過之後，大約可以增加多少工作機會？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：以目前行政院的版本，可以再增加1萬3,000多個工作機會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：以我們原住民的人口數來講，應該是用不完吧？還是不夠？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：可以充分讓原住民在公部門的就業職務類型，不只大部分都停留在約僱人員身上，不是只有技工、工友。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：可以在各部會、各地方政府裡有更好的升遷機會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。請主席再給我1分鐘，今天審查原住民身分法，請教原民會，因為這次憲法法庭判決出來，我們必須在這個時候針對原母漢父的部分修法，我看你們的版本也同意了，就是冠漢人父親的姓氏，再加原住民的名字，對不對？這個以前我們無法想像的也都通過了，所以我想要請教你，因為原住民身分法連動的就是姓名條例，姓名條例的主管機關當然是內政部，可是我想要先問原民會，你同不同意單列原住民族語？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：在原住民族語言發展法裡已經有原住民族文字這個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是啊！是啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：既然我們是國家的語言，是可以單列的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對嘛！大家都這麼認為嘛！國家語言發展法都出來了，承認我們的文字也是文字，那麼請教內政部，因為我過去質詢時也一再表示，原住民身分法跟姓名條例兩個法是連動的，應該沒有辦法脫勾，因為我們會被影響，而我在第三會期就已經提出姓名條例第二條的修法版本，希望臺灣原住民的傳統姓名得使用羅馬拼音或原住民族文字登記，不受前兩項的限制。不曉得內政部的意見怎麼樣？今天也有排這個法案。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告……"],["主席：等一下修法時再來談，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就是問一下態度。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告，行政院已經決議朝單列羅馬拼音的方式進行，但後續還要進行相關的溝通協調，等行政院整個政策拍板定案之後，我們會來處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我就是要這個答案，行政院已經同意單列了，對不對？"],["陳代理司長子和：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，感謝，謝謝部長、謝謝主委、謝謝各位長官。"],["主席：邱臣遠、邱臣遠、邱臣遠委員不在。","陳琬惠、陳琬惠、陳琬惠委員不在。","陳亭妃、陳亭妃、陳亭妃委員不在。","劉世芳、劉世芳、劉世芳委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","林文瑞、林文瑞、林文瑞委員不在。","廖婉汝、廖婉汝、廖婉汝委員不在。","現在請陳委員椒華質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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主委好今天內政委員會特別安排行政中立的專報我們也都知道公務人員行政中立法的主管機關應該是在權序部因為今天也沒有來備訓所以我就大概問我們三個部會首先我想要請教一下中選會李主委請您看一下"},{"start":55.134,"end":77.131,"text":"因為在上上個禮拜同樣的時間同樣的地點在我質詢之後聽說有幾位委員就原民會辦的一個叫文化健康站的實施計畫到底有沒有行政中立的問題做了一番質詢討論所以我在這邊請教一下李主委"},{"start":78.252,"end":104.81,"text":"這個文件站它的主辦機關是原民會承辦的機關是縣市政府協辦區公所、鄉公所那麼執行的單位其實是原民團體也就是所謂的協會那這個協會呢它會聘僱一些人員就是所謂的造福人員好 那我請教一下李主委這一些被聘僱的造福員"},{"start":105.891,"end":110.153,"text":"他們適用或者准用公務人員行政中立法嗎?跟委員報告中選會針對我們選務工作人員行政中立我們是有權限所以其他機關的人員這部分因為不是我們執掌範圍之內我們尊重全職機關的處理"},{"start":131.445,"end":140.418,"text":"好來那請教一下原民會主委請教主委吼文件站的造福員適用或准用公務人員行政中立法嗎"},{"start":142.086,"end":169.004,"text":"因為趙輔演是正如剛剛委員所提到的他是文件站執行單位禁用的人員所以對顏明慧來講這個不是機關的聘用人員他是一個民間人員好,就不是嘛,好那因為有人很關心一而再再而三的諮詢所以我也知道你們在有委員諮詢關心之後呢今年的9月以及上一次諮詢完的隔天隔一個禮拜你們也兩度"},{"start":172.486,"end":189.991,"text":"發函給縣市政府以及文件站。」我看到你們裡面的這些內容今天在專報裡面也有寫到就是希望說避免於開站的期間為特定公職候選人公開站開或協助拜票"},{"start":190.771,"end":212.99,"text":"也不應以文件站的名義帶長者去做候選人的競選活動然後非上班時間你們也要求應避免穿著文件站的背心去參加這些活動好 那我請教一下既然有人關心我相信你們應該有去查了有沒有查有沒有查上次提到的那種情形"},{"start":219.88,"end":247.378,"text":"這如剛剛委員提到就是我們已經兩度發函9月13號跟11月28號按照相關的法律的規範那有沒有去查因為我記得那位委員他有要求要查目前我們沒有收到任何的案子所以沒有查到沒有查到沒有查到那我們來看一下因為我是不會做這種事雖然我被指控但是我們看一下一段影片因為這是公開的影片"},{"start":249.059,"end":274.497,"text":"就是那一位委員主委這是文健站吧他帶著另外一位平地原住民候選人也公開穿著他候選人背心"},{"start":281.219,"end":293.103,"text":"他說我要選立委了我都是到文健站各地去報票這是他說出來的話我們再看下一個都是他質詢前的一個禮拜好"},{"start":309.181,"end":331.504,"text":"我要說的是我們也沒有人特別去在意這件事為什麼因為關懷長者我們也很高興而且真的要去追究他是不是公務人員行政中立法說實在你們也回答不出來也沒有辦法就辦那有沒有違反你們一而再再而三講的規定好 真的違反"},{"start":332.225,"end":351.957,"text":"我相信你們的做法也就是進行糾舉之後有可能這個協會可能就列入不適合的辦理單位好但是我要說的是多少年來像我們繼續看這是去年扶植的這些候選人你看到每一個文件站發快篩長年累月去發物資"},{"start":353.078,"end":372.285,"text":"我們也都沒有人為什麼去講這個不會去指責因為關心老人家嘛好事嘛雖然我沒有這個能耐能力沒有這個財力廣潔善言但是我也是祝福啊因為多一點的人去關心老人是好事啊但是我覺得不能因為"},{"start":373.405,"end":390.875,"text":"在很多的縣市暢行無阻就因為在某個縣市我就直接講了因為他也直接講了屏東縣政府要求文件在員工撫選在國會殿堂直接點名因為沒有辦法在這個縣暢行無阻然後還指控直接說伍綠華跟這些員工說不支持我你們就離開就沒有工作"},{"start":403.459,"end":407.681,"text":"更糟糕的是還製作影片散佈你們怎麼會容許這些行為我請教一下因為他有要求調查有沒有跟屏東縣政府調查有沒有掌握到有沒有人指控我不支持就離開"},{"start":426.704,"end":440.649,"text":"就跟委員剛才我講過就是到目前為止沒有收到任何要求調查的案子但是因為是沒有的我是我的個性大家都知道我也敢拍胸脯保證我是很客氣的人我很知道分寸在哪裡我不會幹這些事所以今天的備詢沒有邀請到"},{"start":450.14,"end":466.151,"text":"行政中立法的主管機關群序部所以我覺得也沒有辦法充分討論但是最起碼我想說的是文健站的這些造福員工作人員他不是公務人員他享有參與政治及言論的表意自由"},{"start":467.825,"end":481.615,"text":"這樣子去胡亂指控真的要嘛還做影片後製散布要不然他的意圖就是意圖使某人不當選要不然就是意圖使那一些族人不敢發聲"},{"start":485.827,"end":513.229,"text":"我不太曉得說我們是民主自由的法治國家然後一再的在國會殿堂上演這種荒唐的戲碼還要指派議員在地方的議會也要去做這樣的諮詢我覺得原民會作為原住民事務的主管機關我覺得這個部分你們也要拿出態度那我其實想要藉這個機會只是讓那些開始害怕的族人知道"},{"start":514.605,"end":525.383,"text":"我們的行政中立法是規範適用的是我們的公務員跟這些準用的公務員並且他有他的強度不是一般的人民"},{"start":526.936,"end":549.965,"text":"憲法保障我們很多的自由我們也有參政權、選舉權即便是一般的公務人員他也有參與政治的權利他也有表意的自由我覺得不需要做到這個樣子那我們很多的族人非常的傷心非常的難過非常的害怕不應該是這個樣子所以我在這個地方那既然是公務人員我們就來講好了我們來看一些真正的公務人員這個都是新聞隨便抓的"},{"start":555.02,"end":566.647,"text":"有一個市長他參加某個市府的官方活動公開說自己正在參選總統還發表選舉的語言請問一下我要問誰啊法務部有無違法"},{"start":570.751,"end":574.434,"text":"各種法所以今天就不叫行政中立的主管機關我就不懂啊我們要討論這個法結果主管機關就沒有來我就不知道怎麼問啊"},{"start":589.356,"end":611.86,"text":"對那如果說這是有沒有違反選罷法相關的刑罰的規定倒是個案要去判斷啦那刑罰的部分倒是法務部主管機關沒有錯那刑罰假官他就這個個案他應該會去處理好像這個案例里長出面用里民聚會的名義去借場地結果最後是辦候選人的候議員大會有沒有違法委員提的還是行政中立的問題"},{"start":618.096,"end":643.648,"text":"那問中選會主委他是選務工作他不是我們的選務工作人員里長他不是所以就問不出來嗎要找全序部來是嗎其他權責機關那再講一個好了那參加官方的活動然後呢搭配當選的歌曲然後在那個地方大家公務人員配合喊動算動算有沒有違反"},{"start":648.557,"end":674.742,"text":"大家都沒有辦法因為都不是主管機關好 園民會今天我們有審查原住民族工作權保障法那這個目的我自己的版本就是希望增加就業的機會讓更多的人受益所以我們希望去修不要限於約聘僱五類人員那個太低了那我請教一下我們希望開放所有的職缺請教一下園民會可不可行"},{"start":676.87,"end":699.175,"text":"這個是我們目前送大宴的一個版本就是希望我們不能禁用的部分不應該只限業務人員這樣的話沒有辦法提升我們的這個收入啦因為業務人員一般的收入比較低嘛所以我們希望有更好的這個保障讓原住民在公部門可以工作好 謝謝齁那我們都很期待今天能不能出委員會"},{"start":701.696,"end":722.499,"text":"希望大宴支持行政院的版本那如果這個法案修法通過之後大約可以增加多少的工作機會以目前行政院的版本的話可以再增加一萬三千多個工作機會那以我們原住民的人口數來講應該是用不完吧還是不夠可以充分讓原住民在"},{"start":723.683,"end":750.368,"text":"公部門的就業的職務類型不是只有大部分都停留在業故人員這個地方不是只有機工工友可以在很多的各部會各地方政府裡面有更好的一個升遷的機會好 謝謝那我也想要請教一下今天要審查原住民身份法再給我一分鐘請教一下園民會因為這次憲法法庭判決出來我們也必須在這個時候去做出修法"},{"start":752.009,"end":771.508,"text":"這個關於原母漢父我看我們的版本也都同意了就是冠漢人父親的姓氏再加原住民的名字對不對這個以前我們無法想像的也都通過了所以我想要請教您一下因為原住民身份法它連動的就是姓名條例"},{"start":773.499,"end":792.87,"text":"這個姓名條例當然主管機關是內政部可是我想要先問一下園民會你同不同意單列原住民族群在《原住民族語言發展法》裡面我們已經有原住民族文字 是啊既然我們是國家的語言發展法 是可以單列"},{"start":793.23,"end":817.58,"text":"對嘛大家都這麼認為嘛國家語言發展法都出來了承認我們的文字也是文字那麼請教一下內政部齁因為我一直在講過去質詢的時候說原住民身份條例跟姓名條例齁原住民身份法跟姓名條例兩個法應該是沒有辦法脫鉤啦因為是連動我們會被影響所以我想請教一下好最後最後齁"},{"start":818.18,"end":834.027,"text":"那最後這個就是姓名條例第二條我在第三會期就已經提出修法版本我希望用臺灣原住民的傳統姓名得使用羅馬拼音或原住民族文字登記不受前兩項的限制那不曉得內政部怎麼樣今天也有排這個"},{"start":839.063,"end":860.879,"text":"下修法再來談好不好那我就是問一下態度跟委員報告這個行政院他已經決議朝單列羅馬拼音的方式進行但是後續還要進行相關的溝通協調那等行政院整個政策拍板定案之後我就是要這個答案行政院已經同意單列了對不對好感謝謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029da0f5676eab701e794fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a032264660bb4e4faf5645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"12:47:38 - 13:00:26","影片長度":"00:12:48","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":768,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:00:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:47:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1022,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（12時47分）謝謝主席。主席，麻煩內政部林部長、中選會李主委。今天法務部是黃常次，還是……"],["主席：黃常次。"],["李委員德維：好，那就麻煩。"],["主席：林部長、李主委、黃常次。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["李委員德維：部長，我們正副總統選舉罷免法第二十條規定，在中華民國自由地區連續居住六個月以上，而且設籍十五年以上的選舉人，年滿四十歲可以成為總統、副總統的候選人。請教一下，這個部分內政部或者是中選會可以回答一下，我們現在執政黨的副總統參選人蕭美琴女士，他何時在臺灣設籍的？我們先不談國籍，我們講戶籍，你們有資料嗎？"],["林部長右昌：請戶政司來回答。"],["李委員德維：好，戶政司。"],["陳代理司長子和：報告委員，我們有查過他的戶籍資料，他是在91年的時候……"],["李委員德維：91年註冊戶籍，所以在91年以前他在中華民國臺灣地區是沒有戶籍的？是這個意思嗎？對不對？"],["陳代理司長子和：按照移民法的規定，據有中華民國國籍的人有兩種身分，一個是有戶籍的國民，一種是無戶籍的國民。"],["李委員德維：沒關係，所以他真正申請戶籍是2002年，對不對？所以在2002年以前他沒有申請過。那可不可以請教，按照我們蕭副總統參選人的自述，他曾經講到一個問題，他說他為了要申請中華民國的國籍，不管是國籍或戶籍，幾乎跑斷腿。可不可以請教一下，在這個部分裡面，今天外交部是不是也有來啊？既然現在內政部說，他自然就有國籍，那為什麼他會因為申請國籍而跑斷腿？請問內政部有沒有調查，或者外交部當時誰拒絕了他？","我們在這個部分可以看到，1993年（民國82年）蕭美琴女士就擔任呂秀蓮辦公室的實習助理，1995年（民國84年）就開始是民主進步黨駐美代表處的執行長，到1996年開始是民進黨中央黨部國際事務部的副主任。應該這樣講，他當時都沒有申請中華民國臺灣的戶籍，雖然你說他有國籍，但是他都沒有申請。","重點來了，他說他申請國籍，不管國籍或戶籍，他在2002申請了戶籍，因為你說他有國籍。本席想請教的是，在這裡面到底是哪個單位讓他跑斷腿？是你外交部不願意辦？還是內政部要負責？還是臺北市哪個戶政事務所拒絕他？可以講出來嗎？要不要講？"],["林部長右昌：我想我不是很清楚那個時候蕭美琴女士辦理所謂的這些……"],["李委員德維：跑斷腿。"],["林部長右昌：這個問題，不曉得那個情境是什麼樣子。"],["李委員德維：是。"],["林部長右昌：不過，這個跟他的國籍基本上是……我們在法律上，基本上是沒有關係的。"],["李委員德維：沒關係。部長，我當然知道你會這樣回答，但是現在蕭美琴女士既然講，他當時為了不管是戶籍或國籍，他是跑斷腿了，所以本席現在要要求內政部也好、外交部也好，好好地去清查到底當時是誰讓他跑斷腿的。既然他有國籍，為什麼不能申請戶籍？或者他為什麼沒有申請戶籍？當然那是他的問題，但重點是，他講了，他跑斷腿啊！最後他是想要國籍來參選立委，這是他講的。所以這個部分，沒關係，部長，我知道你現在答不出來，但是可不可以請您帶回去，瞭解一下當時他為什麼需要跑斷腿，甚至於參選立法委員才能夠申請戶籍。所以他特別講了，您可以去看，他說2002他當選了立委，然後他非常開心地去放棄美國籍，申請中華民國的國籍，他認為他終於回家了。","好，這也不重要，因為你們現在講的是，他申請了戶籍，他本來就有國籍。重點一句話就是，當時到底是哪個單位，讓他這個有國籍的人不能申請，或者讓他跑斷腿去申請戶籍？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告……"],["李委員德維：這個政治責任要追究。"],["林部長右昌：我想，這個這麼多年來，我們的戶政機關或者相關機關的服務應該是有增進啦！不過你剛剛提到，那個跟國籍基本上沒有關係。","第二個，申請戶籍的時候，其實就是到他戶籍要申請的所在地的戶政機關去申請。"],["李委員德維：是，所以這個部分，拜託內政部、戶政司可以去瞭解一下，在2002年以前，我們當時的蕭美琴女士，他跑斷腿去申請但卻不得其門而入，到底發生了什麼事？您可以去調查嗎？願意嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不過委員，我跟您報告，這個應該跟所謂的申請，或者……"],["李委員德維：我要講，部長，這個非常、非常重要，為什麼？因為這個牽扯到所有以後在國外出生的中華民國國民來申請戶籍，他需要跑斷腿跟蕭美琴一樣的話，本席不能接受。這不是蕭美琴一個人的問題，是所有人的問題，他31歲以前沒有申請中華民國的戶籍，你雖然說他自然就有中華民國的國籍，但他沒有申請，所以他沒身分證，他沒有中華民國的護照，這一點外交部是不是……因為你沒有戶籍，他應該是沒有中華民國的護照吧！所以這個部分裡面，不只是他一個人的問題，我們現在希望保障的是，所有中華民國的國民以後在國外出生，他都不需要跑斷腿來申請戶籍。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，現在我們所有的戶政機關都已經全國連線，所以現在已不需要跑到所謂的所在地，其實在任何一個戶政機關，透過我們相關的申請程序……當然如果是國外回來的話，還要經過我們移民機關。現在因為所有的戶所都已經全部連線了，以前並沒有，這點也跟你做說明。"],["李委員德維：瞭解，謝謝部長。","另外再請教法務部次長，按照緩刑制度的立法理由說明是為促使惡性輕微的偶發犯或初犯改過自新而設，而且憲法法庭也解釋，臺灣高等法院108年度抗字第890號的裁定要旨也認為緩刑是一個寬典，請問次長，既然是寬典，被告（受刑人）能夠主動放棄緩刑嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這是一個判決，他沒有放棄的問題。"],["李委員德維：他沒有放棄的問題。公務人員選舉罷免法第二十六條原來的相關規定您都一定非常清楚，但是最後一句話「但受緩刑宣告者，不在此限」，今年我們立法院做了相關的修訂，行政院今年6月提出來的公職人員選舉罷免法修正，這個部分在緩刑期間或者是行刑權因時效消滅，不得登記為候選人。次長，受緩刑不得參選，這個在我們剛剛前面講到的憲法保障人民的參政權，您覺得有疑義嗎？當然今天不只是王家貞這個案子。"],["黃次長謀信：因為選務不是法務部主管，而且這個法規也不是本部主管法規，本部當然尊重主管機關以及立法的形成，所以本部沒有辦法有所評論。"],["李委員德維：好，那本席有一個問題，法務部在這部分願意去研究它的適法性，是不是願意提出來讓大法官來釋憲？法務部的立場呢？"],["黃次長謀信：主管法規的主管機關如果有異議的話，按照我們憲法訴訟法，它是有權力可以做相關的處理。"],["李委員德維：當然主管機關是中選會……"],["黃次長謀信：如果說有法律上的意見，本部作為中華民國法律意見的主管機關，我們可以提供相關的意見諮詢，這是沒有問題的。"],["李委員德維：好，這部分也請法務部來研究一下。","主委，請教一下，這個部分您覺得有沒有必要大法官再來研究一下？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會的立場，我們在候選人資格審定的時候，完全是根據選罷法的規定辦理。"],["李委員德維：當然，因為你們也是當時修法的主管機關，這一個條文其實當時在這個地方，這樣講不好意思，不只我們國民黨，其實民進黨也有很多意見，但是到後來朝野協商全部被一腳踹翻，回到原點，按照行政院版本，就全部回來了。但是現在的確發生問題，所以中選會基於本法的主管機關，願不願意來思考可以請大法官再來做解釋？因為現在是受緩刑的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們作為選罷法的執行機關，是按照大院所通過的選罷法的規定，嚴格的來執行。"],["李委員德維：好，主委，您自己也是法律人，犯下各式各樣的重罪，執行以後都可以參選，但是現在的輕罪連緩刑，就是所謂的寬典都不能參選，這真的在公平正義上有一些問題，所以本席真的建議要來救濟。","不好意思，因為時間到了，最後一個問題，高雄市政風處在查賄的時候，當然現在有舉報劉秀鳳理事長假藉舉辦70大壽名義為總統參選人來助選。請教法務部次長，有這件事嗎？你們有接到相關的情資嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，政風處、我們檢察官在查察賄選的時候，不論是民眾的檢舉告發也好，或來自政府部門的相關蒐證也好，都會匯集到我們檢察機關來做一個情資的研判。"],["李委員德維：好，這一件事情當然現在媒體報導的不小，所以高雄市政風處真的有相關的情資，是這個意思嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：事實上高雄地檢就這個情資也分案在處理了。"],["李委員德維：在處理了？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["李委員德維：這個當然是檢察官的權責，但在這部分裡面，各個政黨，尤其執政黨的立委其實也在相關宴會上現身，所以真的要好好的來做調查，我們當然勿枉勿縱，但是也不要讓人覺得這裡面有什麼因人而異或者因政黨而異的事情發生，我覺得都是大家不樂見的。"],["黃次長謀信：不會，檢察官會按照蒐集來的情資，他自己再依個案做研判。"],["李委員德維：好，瞭解，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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這也不重要因為你們現在講的是他申請了戶籍他本來就有國籍重點"},{"start":289.181,"end":300.276,"text":"一句話就是當時到底是哪個單位讓他這個有國籍的人不能申請或者讓他跑斷腿去申請戶籍這個政績實在要追究"},{"start":305.91,"end":328.958,"text":"我想這個這麼多年來應該我們的互證機關或者相關機關的服務應該是增進了不過你剛剛提到那個跟國籍其實基本上沒有沒有關係第二個申請戶籍那個時候其實就是到他戶籍要申請的所在地的這個互證機關去做申請是所以這個部分拜託內政部還有互證師可以去了解一下"},{"start":331.935,"end":358.465,"text":"當時這2002年以前我們當時的小美琴女士她跑斷腿去申請但是不得其門而入到底發生了什麼事您可以去調查嗎願意嗎不過委員會跟你報告這個應該跟因為來來來我講這個非常非常重要不然不然不然我講這個非常重要為什麼因為這個牽扯到所有以後在國外出生的"},{"start":359.622,"end":374.271,"text":"中華民國國民來申請戶籍他要需要跑斷腿跟蕭美琴一樣的話本席不能接受這不是蕭美琴一個人的問題是所有人的問題"},{"start":375.95,"end":405.43,"text":"他31歲以前他沒有申請中華民國的戶籍你雖然說他有他自然就是中華民國有他的國籍但他沒有申請所以他沒有身分證他沒有中華民國的護照這一點外交部是不是因為你沒有戶籍但是應該是沒有中華民國的護照吧所以這個部分裡面不只是他一個人的問題我們現在希望保障的是所有中華民國的國民以後在國外出生"},{"start":406.37,"end":427.976,"text":"他都不需要跑斷腿來申請戶籍剛剛我也報告現在我們所有的戶政機關現在都已經全國連線所以現在你不需要跑到所謂的所在地其實在任何一個戶政機關透過我們相關的一個申請程序當然如果是國外回來的話"},{"start":429.037,"end":440.391,"text":"還要經過我們移民機關那現在因為全部都已經全部所有的戶所都全部連線了那以前是並沒有所以這一點跟你做說明好 了解來 謝謝部長"},{"start":441.721,"end":464.447,"text":"那另外再請教一下來這個法務部長請教一下按照緩刑制度的立法理由說明是惡性輕微的被告或偶發犯出犯改過自新而設而且憲法法庭也解釋臺灣高等法院108年度抗治第890號的裁定要旨也認為緩刑是一個寬點"},{"start":466.763,"end":471.201,"text":"請問次長 這是寬點 被告也就是受刑人能夠主動放棄緩刑嗎"},{"start":473.352,"end":500.934,"text":"公務員辦法這是一個判決他沒有辦法放棄的問題他沒有一個放棄的問題對好來公務員辦法26條原來的規定這些相關您都一定非常清楚但是最後一句話但受緩刑宣告者不在此限那今年當然這個我們立法院做相關的這個修訂行政院提出來的這個部分今年6月工作人員辦法修正所以在這個部分裡面"},{"start":501.955,"end":525.778,"text":"當然在緩刑期間或者是刑刑權因失效的消滅不得登記為候選人請到次長受緩刑不得參選這個在憲法保障我們剛剛前面講到的東西這個人民的參政權您覺得有疑義嗎我們當然今天不只是王家珍這個案子"},{"start":527.028,"end":541.04,"text":"各位報告因為這個不是選務不是法務部主管而且這個法規也不是本部主管法規那本部當然尊重主管機關及立法的形成所以這部分我們本部沒有辦法有所評論那本市有一個問題"},{"start":542.501,"end":558.839,"text":"法務部在這部分願意去研究它的釋法性是不是願意來提出來相關大法官來釋憲法務部的立場跟我們報告這個主管法規的主管機關他如果有異議的話按照我們憲法送法他是有權利可以做相關的權利當然主管機關是中選會"},{"start":560.981,"end":585.248,"text":"法律上的意見本部當作全中華民國的法律意見主管機關我們可以提供相關的意見諮詢這是沒有問題所以這個部分當然也請法務部來研究一下好不好來主委請教一下要不然來換市長請教主委好了主委這個部分您覺得勒有沒有必要大法官再來研究一下"},{"start":586.769,"end":599.226,"text":"中選會的立場我們在候選人資格審定的時候完全是根據選罷法的規定來辦理但是你們也是當時修法的主管機關嘛這一個條文其實當時在這個地方"},{"start":602.731,"end":628.625,"text":"這樣講不好意思不只我們國民黨其實民進黨也有很多意見但到後來朝野協商全部被一腳踹翻回到原點按照行政院版本就全部回來了但現在的確發生了問題所以中選會基於主管機關的這一個部分願不願意來思考可以請大法官再來做解釋因為現在是受緩刑的問題"},{"start":630.925,"end":646.49,"text":"我們作為這個選罷法的執行機關是按照大院所通過的選罷法的規定嚴格的來執行是好來主委您自己也法律人"},{"start":647.87,"end":665.679,"text":"犯下各式各樣的重罪執行以後都可以參選但是現在的輕罪連緩刑就是所謂的寬點都不能參選這真的其實在公平正義上真的有一些問題所以本席真的建議要來救濟最後一個問題來不好意思因為時間到了最後一個問題"},{"start":669.221,"end":683.853,"text":"那個高雄市政風處在茶會的時候當然現在有舉報啊就是劉秀鳳理事長甲介舉辦七字大咒民意為這個總統參選來助選啊那請教法務部好了這位法務部"},{"start":685.415,"end":702.571,"text":"市長有這件事嗎?你們有接到相關的情資嗎?跟我們報告那政風處他我們檢察官在查查會選的時候是民眾的檢舉告發也好或來自政府部門的相關的說證也好他都會匯集到我們檢察機關來做一個請示的研判"},{"start":703.652,"end":722.807,"text":"好所以這件事情當然現在媒體也有報導的不小那所以高雄市增豐處真的有有這相關的一個情資是這個意思嗎那事實上高雄地檢營就這個情資他也分案在處理了在處理了是好當然在這部分裡面這個市長您也當然這"},{"start":724.548,"end":747.211,"text":"檢察官的權責但是在這部分裡面當然各個政黨尤其是執政黨的立委其實也在相關參與宴會的現身所以在這部分裡面當然請這個這個真的要好好的來做調查千萬不要我們當然勿枉勿縱但是也不要讓人覺得"},{"start":749.553,"end":764.585,"text":"這裡面有什麼因人而異或者因政黨而異的事情發生我覺得都是大家不樂見我不會那檢察官會按照收集來請知他在做自己個案在做研判好了解謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請吳立華委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"148978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029ecf38a9d415ef17594fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a032225a32fc0a1f089135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"12:34:52 - 12:47:21","影片長度":"00:12:29","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":749,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:47:21+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:34:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（12時34分）謝謝主席。我請林部長、黃明昭署長以及黃謀信次長。"],["主席：請部長、署長、次長。"],["林部長右昌：召委好。"],["游委員毓蘭：三位好。我看到一則新聞，我看得滿難過的，因為去年8月發生的臺南殺警案，有這一個叫做師大數學哥的，他是在曹瑞傑跟凃明誠被殺了之後，他酸臺灣九成警察都是垃圾、廢物，臺南市警察局第二分局調查之後就函送新北地檢署偵辦，但是新北地檢署做出不起訴的處分，家屬聲請再議也被駁回了，結果駁回之後，他就更囂張了，一副好像是司法已經給他背書了，就是他說兩個警察死了都是言論自由。部長跟署長，你們作為警察的大家長，你們對這樣子的言論自由能夠接受嗎？我看到臺南市黃偉哲市長出來撻伐了，但是我想聽你們的聲音。"],["林部長右昌：我想這樣的一個言論當然是不當的。"],["游委員毓蘭：是不當的是吧？署長有沒有更積極的作法？"],["黃署長明昭：我想他這個言論，我們真的深感不妥，而且非常的……"],["游委員毓蘭：這不是不妥，我是憤怒。"],["黃署長明昭：非常的不高興，憑良心講。因為我們員警……"],["游委員毓蘭：署長，因為我做了一些研究，我們辦公室做了研究，我本來今天想要去按鈴申告，我覺得他還有新事證，可是因為兩位當事人凃明誠跟曹瑞傑都已經過世了，所以只能夠由家屬提出。我們署裡面有一個訴訟的基金，署長，我希望我們要用這個基金來支持兩位犧牲的同仁，能夠幫他們贏回這個公道，部長跟署長可不可以做得到？可不可以答應做得到？"],["黃署長明昭：是，家屬已經委由律師提起自訴，自訴部分的律師費用，我們警政署會全力來支持。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，但是我也很希望部長跟署長今天就發布一個強硬的聲明，不要看到只有黃偉哲市長在那邊替警察講話。","兩位請回座，我要問一下黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["游委員毓蘭：次長，為什麼新北地檢署會這樣，馬上就給他做一個不起訴？因為我今天看到這個新聞，去年臺北市大同分局的同仁因為去處理家暴的時候，當事人放狗出來咬警察，但是這個檢察官至少讓我覺得還有一點點智慧，至少是要讓當事人認罪、和解，才能夠獲得緩起訴，我們新北地檢署就這樣很輕率的，完全沒有顧慮到警察當時是冒著生命危險，而且這個問題一開始就是法務部矯正署在外役監條例上面有一些疏失，我們居然都沒有一種夥伴互挺這樣的作為，至少要做到讓他們認罪嘛！次長，你覺得呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，委員剛剛提到新北地檢署那個個案，雖然檢察官做了不起訴處分，臺灣高檢署也駁回了再議的程序，但是整個救濟程序其實還沒走完，現在聲請准許提起自訴的程序，所以個案的狀況會怎麼樣，整個訴訟程序還在進行當中。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，次長，因為您跟警察合作也很久了，我很希望您不要讓其他的檢察官都變成法匠，完全沒有辦法同理我們整個團隊在這邊所做的犧牲奉獻，可不可以回去也加強一下檢察官們的在職訓練好嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，事實上，檢察官的在職訓練，我們不斷的在進行。"],["游委員毓蘭：好，請回。接下來我要請中選會的李主委。"],["主席：李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：召委好。"],["游委員毓蘭：主委，您這段時間也辛苦了。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["游委員毓蘭：不過本會在今年上半年通過的選罷法，包括我們執政黨的莊瑞雄委員都認為這裡面是有一些好像侵害人權之虞，他自己都這麼認為，我們公開都談過的，未來都要聲請釋憲的。公務人員的選罷法，剛剛因為陳以信委員已經跟你討教過了，生效的時間是今年的6月，對不對？但是臺南的這個候選人王家貞，他涉及偽造文書案，法院是在什麼時候宣判緩刑，您知道嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：確實的時間，我並不清楚。"],["游委員毓蘭：沒關係，是今年3月啦。剛剛陳以信委員也提過了，其實王家貞沒有辦法預見這個選擇，他的選擇不管是選擇易科罰金，易科罰金馬上就執行完畢了，跟他選擇緩刑會有這樣的天差地別，甚至於影響到他在憲法保障的參政權，所以我們當然也想要瞭解，在這個案子上面，中選會會有怎麼樣的態度呢？你們在處理上，對於他的身分具不具備候選人資格，能不能預估一下？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員，我想我們審查候選人的消極資格，當然是影響非常重大的，到底這個候選人有沒有參與選舉的資格，這個不是我們能夠有什麼裁量，而是完全必須要嚴格遵守選罷法的規定，選罷法關於消極資格最主要規定的條文就在第二十六條，根據第二十六條第九款的規定，雖然所犯的罪不是一款到六款，是一款到六款以外的罪，但是已經經過法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了，被宣告緩刑或者還沒有執行、執行未畢、行刑權消滅時效等等的情況之下，他就不具備參選的資格。"],["游委員毓蘭：所以你認為他是不具備參選資格？"],["李主任委員進勇：我只是在重複法律的規定是這樣。"],["游委員毓蘭：是法律規定，但是我們如果看到這個法很明顯有違憲之虞，難道我們行政機關不作為嗎？按照釋字第525號，其實我們行政機關是有義務來做一些解釋或是做一個裁量，不是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們選務機關是依法行政，辦理選務完全是要有法律的根據，尤其選舉是競爭非常激烈的政治活動，所以我們必須要嚴格的遵守法律規定，不能有任何的閃失。"],["游委員毓蘭：主委，因為您當過法官，在這方面，您是專業的法律人，就我一個半桶水的，我都會認為法律上面應該有一個信賴保護原則的。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，委員客氣了。"],["游委員毓蘭：在這部分，當然我剛剛聽到您的確也講12月15日會由委員會來做決定嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：要審定。"],["游委員毓蘭：要審定嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是你開口閉口都是要以現行法律的規定，依法來處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是，主委，我就直接跟您來做一個討論，我們修過法，行政機關未必馬上就會執行，6月30日我們修正通過的還有道路交通管理處罰條例，規定6月30日就要上路的，其中包括上下課或違規臨停以及騎樓停車都規定要記點，併計1點，但是因為計程車、貨運駕駛的陳情，交通部在11月9日宣布暫緩實施交通違規記點。好，也就是當你們如果看到非常明顯的，這是可能侵害我們國人的參政權，有違憲之虞，而且他現在也要聲請，但是要聲請釋憲可能需要法官，我們看到王家貞已經在聲請他的司法救濟了，我覺得中選會在有這麼明確的違憲之虞的時候，你們在15日的委員會應該要考慮大法官解釋的意旨，要保障人權。最簡單且不違憲、違法的做法就是你們透過職權解釋法律，認定基於不溯及既往以及信賴保護原則，凡事所有在新法生效日前就已經宣告緩刑仍在進行中者，應該還是要承認他具有參選的資格。"],["李主任委員進勇：各方的意見，我們在委員會裡面都會充分地討論。"],["游委員毓蘭：都會充分討論？"],["李主任委員進勇：都會充分討論，最終我們就是嚴格遵照法律的規定。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，但是本席剛剛也已經跟您提出來了，交通部對於我們現行、剛剛修過的法律，他們覺得中間有窒礙難行……"],["李主任委員進勇：我不是很清楚，好像是……"],["游委員毓蘭：所以我就知道，因為您會說……"],["李主任委員進勇：一定要經過法律的授權，有訂定實施的日期。"],["游委員毓蘭：它已經訂定是6月30日開始。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們並沒有，我們的選罷法並沒有這個規定。"],["游委員毓蘭：它6月30日就已經在施行中了，它都還可以暫緩，我們中選會仍然執意用這樣子……"],["李主任委員進勇：我不是執意，我守法。"],["游委員毓蘭：你守法，好，但是我們法律上面，如果違反憲法的話，我覺得憲法應該要高於法律之上，所以在這部分，本席還是覺得非常可惜，因為我不希望人家還是惡意地去解讀中選會是成為政治的工具，因為我知道大家都很努力。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這個言重了，是嚴重的誤會。"],["游委員毓蘭：還是請你們能夠恪守法律授予你們行政裁量也好，或者是在解釋上面的權利。切記我們在釋憲的第525號的……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們嚴格遵守法律的規定。"],["游委員毓蘭：OK，謝謝。"],["主席（游委員毓蘭）：接下來請李德維委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.945343750000001,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.36284375,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.636593750000003,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.395968750000002,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.83409375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.688468750000002,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.10909375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.07471875,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.02721875,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.99159375000001,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.66971875,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.50909375,"end":76.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.94659375,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.20659375000001,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.27409375,"end":91.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.51034375,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.93221875,"end":94.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.30721875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.03596875000001,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.94721875,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.63409375,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.38909375,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.90659375000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.18909375000001,"end":123.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.69096875000001,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.40284375000002,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.58409375000002,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.61346875,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.67659375,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.32909375,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.24034375000002,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.51784375,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.05784375000002,"end":163.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.33034375,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.36534375000002,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.30596875,"end":184.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.13284375,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.11159375000003,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.87096875,"end":187.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.73159375,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.91284375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.78159375,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.15221875,"end":204.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.48846875,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.51346875000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.77909375000002,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.55909375000002,"end":213.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.25909375,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.04659375000003,"end":226.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.03346875000003,"end":231.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.14659375000002,"end":238.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.44096875000002,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.16971875000002,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.35909375000003,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.30409375000002,"end":251.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.62034375000002,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.96159375000002,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.19346875,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.98659375,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.39284375,"end":295.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.19409375000004,"end":279.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.64721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對不對但是我們這個王家珍就台南的這個候選人王家珍他涉及的違狀文書案法院是在什麼時候宣判緩刑您知道嗎"},{"start":362.464,"end":372.026,"text":"確實的時間我並不清楚明天請示今年3月啦今年3月所以王家珍其實剛剛那個陳以信也提過了他沒有辦法預見他這個選擇他的選擇不管是選擇一顆髮金一顆髮金馬上就執行完畢了跟他選擇緩刑會有這樣天差地別甚至影響到他在憲法保障的一個參政權"},{"start":390.27,"end":407.746,"text":"所以我們當然也想要了解一下我們州選會他如果在這個案子上面你們會有怎麼樣的態度呢你們在處理上對於他的身份具不具備候選人資格的"},{"start":408.53,"end":427.296,"text":"能不能預知一下謝謝委員我想我們審查候選人的消極資格那當然是影響非常重大的到底這個候選人有沒有參與選舉的資格這個不是說我們能夠有什麼裁量而是完全必須要嚴格的遵守選罷法的規定"},{"start":429.016,"end":451.529,"text":"那選報法關於消極資格最主要規定的條文就在26條根據26條第9款的規定就是你雖然所犯的罪不是一款到六款一款到六款以外的罪但是已經經過法院的判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了那被宣告緩刑"},{"start":452.609,"end":475.738,"text":"或者還沒有執行執行未必行刑權消滅時效等等的情況之下他就不具備參選的資格所以你認為他是不具備參選資格我只是在重複法律的規定是這個但是我們如果看到這個法很明顯的有違憲之餘的話難道我們行政機關按照我們釋字的第一"},{"start":480.991,"end":503.642,"text":"525號其實我們行政機關是有義務來做一些解釋或者一個裁量不是嗎我們選務機關是依法行政辦理選務完全是要有法律的根據尤其選舉是競爭非常激烈的一個政治的活動所以我們必須要嚴格的遵守法律的規定不能有任何的閃失"},{"start":504.81,"end":520.565,"text":"主委因為您當過法官在這方面你是專業的法律人就我一個半桶水的我都會認為說法律上面應該要有一個信賴保護原則的那在這部分當然我剛剛聽到您的確也講了說你們12月15號會有委員會來做決定要審定對不對"},{"start":528.653,"end":534.667,"text":"但是你開口閉口都是要以現行的法律的規定依法來當然是但是"},{"start":537.799,"end":559.238,"text":"主委就直接跟您來做一個行政機關未必會馬上我們修過法就會執行的6月30號我們修正通過了還有道路交通管理處罰條例規定6月30號就要上路的其中"},{"start":560.359,"end":581.207,"text":"包括上下客、貨、違規、臨停以及騎樓停車都規定要祭典但是因為計程車貨運駕駛的陳情交通部在11月9日宣布暫緩實施交通違規祭典"},{"start":583.598,"end":609.009,"text":"也就是說當你們如果看到的看到說這個非常明顯的這是可能侵害我們國人的一個參政權有違憲之餘而且可能他現在也要申請但是要申請釋憲可能需要法官我們看到王家珍他已經在申請他的司法救濟了我覺得我覺得"},{"start":612.051,"end":615.214,"text":"中選會在有這麼明確的這個違憲之語的時候你們在15日的這個委員會應該要考慮大法官解釋的意旨"},{"start":627.225,"end":653.277,"text":"要保障人權最簡單且不違憲違法的做法就是你們透過職權解釋法律認定基於不溯及既往以及信賴保護原則凡是所有在新法生效日前就已經宣告緩刑仍在進行中者應該還是要承認他具有參選的資格"},{"start":655.851,"end":683.879,"text":"各方的意見我們在委員會裡面都會充分的討論都會充分討論都會充分討論但是最終最終我們就是嚴格遵照法律的規定是 但是本席剛剛也已經跟您提出來了交通部對於我們現行剛剛修過的法律他們覺得中間有不安難行馬上所以我就知道因為您會說聽過法律的授權有定定實施的日期"},{"start":684.798,"end":698.897,"text":"他已經定定是6月31日開始我們並沒有我們的選罷法並沒有這個規定他6月31日已經在施行中他都還可以暫緩了那我們這個中選會仍然就是執意的就用這樣子"},{"start":699.738,"end":704.261,"text":"立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院"},{"start":721.591,"end":744.225,"text":"惡意的去解讀說中選會是成為政治的工具因為我知道大家都很努力我想這個嚴重了嚴重的誤會還是請你們能夠恪守恪守這個法律授予你們這個行政裁量也好或者是在解釋上面的權利切記我們在那個事件的525謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720294ee0de950887a4d994fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d6f935e5ba50cb3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江啟臣","委員發言時間":"12:23:11 - 12:34:40","影片長度":"00:11:29","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":689,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:34:40+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:23:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["江委員啟臣：（12時23分）召委，邀請內政部部長還有原民會主委。"],["主席：林部長、夷將主委請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["江委員啟臣：兩位好。我想我的時間有限，主要今天就針對土地問題，土地問題應該都跟你們部會有關。大家都知道早期在臺灣，早一點的這些農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾，後來因為有些土地就列為林保地、原保地，特別是像原保地這些，所以他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利，不管是使用權或所有權這部分，其實訴求很久。因為本席的選區當中有不少都屬於這樣子的土地，也很困擾。過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會，其實你們都知道這個問題，我不曉得部長瞭不瞭解，但主委應該很瞭解才對。2010年的時候，內政部曾經針對是否要放寬「還我土地」計畫這件事情有開會，也有一些決議，但是後來也不了了之。2021年7月監察院直接糾正內政部，關於這件事情，應該要有效地去處理。針對這個糾正案，內政部當初認為這不是他們管轄的，應該是國有財產署，而且因為涉及原保地，所以應該屬於原住民族委員會。不管怎麼樣，到現在沒有處理啦，所以這些人也只能抗爭、也只能陳情、也只能無奈！當然，有一些人或許不是真的在耕作，但有不少人真的是祖宗八代一直下來就在那塊土地上面耕作，可是他們面臨使用權、所有權可能統統沒辦法。或許有一些你們說可以修法讓他們租用，但是包括這一塊，到現在我也沒有看到任何處理進度，所以導致這些人也只能不斷地抗爭、不斷地陳情，有一些都已經好幾代了，從他的阿公、爸爸，到他現在，產權各方面都還是不明。所以我想請教兩位，這到底是誰的事情？如果是涉及這麼多部會的事情，為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調，就放任這個事情在那裡呢？然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理啊！這是2021年監察院7月份給你們的糾正，你們有處理嗎？現在已經2023年了耶！"],["林部長右昌：委員，你提的是原保地的問題？"],["江委員啟臣：對啊，就是這些原墾農他們的訴求。他們最早的訴求就是「還我土地」嘛！對不對？不要讓這個事情變成漢人和原住民之間的衝突，不應該是這樣子！它有它的歷史背景，可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜，就把它丟著嘛！我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因，你們也沒有處理，就放任它在那邊啊！","主委，你沒有接到過這些陳情嗎？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員報告，原住民保留地非原住民可以有承租權，因為目前山坡地保育利用條例明定原住民保留地所有權移轉以原住民為限，所以一般非原民的使用權，就是承租權還是可以的。"],["江委員啟臣：承租權也不完整，也不是大家都可以承租喔！有一些它直接命你收回。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些個案是因為……"],["江委員啟臣：我們現在遇到有一些是直接要求收回，它也不再租啊！所以我之前找原民會來協調的時候，也找了林務局、內政部、國有財產局，都開過協調會，太多次了啦！我當了快12年的立委，這個議題不知道困擾我們多久，到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我跟委員補充報告一點就是……"],["江委員啟臣：你們說要修原開條例嘛！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：特別提到白毛台的案例……"],["江委員啟臣：不只白毛台，太多了，包括和平地區。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：以這個案例來講的話，我們行政院版的原住民族保留地管理利用條例的草案目前已經在立法院了，那就是要解決這些問題。"],["江委員啟臣：但是前幾天游次長有協商，也沒有共識啊！所以就代表這個問題在這個會期也不可能有結果啦！行政部門的勇氣到底在哪裡？你們的承擔到底在哪裡嘛！對不對？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題。"],["江委員啟臣：這些不完全是立法院的事情！如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這個事情做釐清，也不願意去承擔這些責任的話，在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識？不可能有共識的啊！每個立委代表的都是不同的族群，要怎麼有共識？對不對？政府的行政責任在哪裡？你們的行政責任就是解決問題，你要擔起來啊！你們到底要怎麼做啊？你說可以承租，也不見得大家都可以承租喔！並不是喔！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些不能承租是因為它超限利用才不能承租。"],["江委員啟臣：超限利用歸超限利用……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：大部分的案例是超限利用。"],["江委員啟臣：我現在講的都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的，甚至……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：有些是借名登記的問題，跟承租……"],["江委員啟臣：甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的，結果他現在可能連個農民身分都拿不到，為什麼？因為土地問題，要嘛沒有所有權，要嘛沒有承租權、沒有契約，現在如果要重新打契約，一堆新的規定又來了！反正感覺就是：你們趕快走，不要在這邊耕作了啦，我土地要收回啦，這就是我的原住民保留地、這就是我的林保地，我就是不讓你們耕作了！太多了！我遇到太多這樣子的個案了！這些個案過去也曾經有被逼到自殺的，不是沒有啊，我也處理過啊！所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛！這難道是在糾正立法院嗎？是在糾正你們耶！你怎麼會反過來跟我們講法案躺在立法院？這根本是標準的卸責！拖了多少年了？這些人……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：監察院這個糾正案是包含借名登記……"],["江委員啟臣：主委，你講話小心一點，我跟你講，如果你們站在處理這個問題的立場上面還是這麼「壓霸」的態度的話……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我沒有「壓霸」啊，我們的……"],["江委員啟臣：你就是讓這些人不斷抗議！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們的法律案已經送到大院這裡了。"],["江委員啟臣：法律案雖然送到這邊，問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識，然後行政部門又挑起什麼責任了呢？難道這個糾正案是監察院在糾正我們哦？是糾正你們耶！糾正內政部，內政部又推給原民會、又推給國有財產署！沒有答案啊！到現在也沒有啊！不然你告訴我怎麼解決嘛！對於這些人的抗爭、這些人的訴求，你告訴我怎麼解決！我是一個民意代表，我不是行政官員，我也不是部長，我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求、他們的意見、他們的想法，他們就是想要耕作，他們就是想要合法地祖宗三代都在那邊務農，他能不能在那邊務農下去？你不能一竿子打翻，好像所有的人都是不法的，其實有很多人也是合法在那邊務農的啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員，其實有許多案例都是取得承租權，這些案例會後可以給委員做參考。"],["江委員啟臣：有一些有，但是有一些沒有，不然……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：多半有。"],["江委員啟臣：不然不會有那麼多人拿不到農保資格，甚至在受到天然災害影響的時候，政府的補助他也沒有資格拿，為什麼？因為他沒有身分！這裡面還涉及很多其他的問題啦，原漢之間這個我不要講，可是我要跟你講的就是，真正在那邊耕作的人不見得有土地的使用權和所有權，過去因為政府沒有一個法制化的管理，造成這些土地因為被劃歸為原住民保留地，所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權，對不對？但是這些土地能不能賣？你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚，可是中間就透過很多私人的不管是租或賣等等的，然後也沒有去管理，最後造成真正在這上面種果樹的、務農的也沒有農民身分，既沒有辦法拿到農保，相關的農業他也拿不到，為什麼？因為土地身分沒有得到證明、沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障。","針對這些土地衍生出來的身分問題，我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題，而不是要你來這邊推卸責任！難道修了那個法，這個問題就解決了嗎？還有，在這個修法的過程裡面，所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎？因為每個委員背後所代表的，不要說什麼啦，連族群的利益都不見得一樣。所以這就有賴行政部門去看法規上怎麼處理，才能夠得到最圓滿的解決嘛！我們的要求就是這樣子而已，所以你不要在這邊推卸責任啦！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我沒有推卸責任。"],["江委員啟臣：那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭啊！"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們會把條例送到大院就不是推卸責任啦！"],["江委員啟臣：好，那你告訴我！現在條例也沒有辦法解決啊！的確就是沒有共識啊！沒有共識……"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們尊重大院的共識。"],["江委員啟臣：不是「尊重大院」，而是你要去處理那些問題啦！不是「尊重大院」，不然要這個政府幹嘛？對不對？如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題，要這個政府幹嘛？政府就是要處理問題的，不能因為它複雜就不處理啊！","所以你也答不出來啊！"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：接下來我們請游毓蘭召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.53284375,"end":3.3215937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.40159375,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.582218750000003,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.72034375,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.84596875,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.06471875,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.207843750000002,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.70534375,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.63284375,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.416593750000004,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.440343750000004,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.10596875,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.52534375,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.26784375000001,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.37221875,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.53221875,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.25346875000001,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.09284375,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.48909375000001,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.61971875,"end":94.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.67846875000001,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.00284375000001,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.17846875000001,"end":111.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.13159375000001,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.69221875000001,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.54846875000001,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.23596875000001,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.74596875,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.70784375000001,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.87596875000001,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.49159375000002,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.26284375,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.35909375,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.14346875,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.39221875,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.53534375,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.96971875,"end":148.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.05409375000002,"end":151.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.83846875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.86346875,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":166.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.14409375000002,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.71721875,"end":173.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.50159375,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.26034375,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.38221875000002,"end":183.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.72784375,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.29721875,"end":187.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.07284375,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.46846875,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.72096875000003,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.82596875000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.57659375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.25534375,"end":212.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.95971875,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.99721875,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.77346875,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.98721875,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.16409375,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.84721875000002,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.55596875,"end":232.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.34471875000003,"end":234.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.23909375000002,"end":236.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.13721875000002,"end":239.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.00596875000002,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.67659375000002,"end":243.18284375000002}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請兩位好我想時間有限主要今天要針對這個土地問題"},{"start":22.935,"end":42.515,"text":"那土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些"},{"start":43.576,"end":58.85,"text":"所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本是因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾"},{"start":60.732,"end":74.384,"text":"過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但是主委應該了解才對2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個"},{"start":77.447,"end":97.937,"text":"是否要放寬這環我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來也不了了之那2021年7月今天才有一個直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理"},{"start":99.342,"end":118.002,"text":"那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為"},{"start":119.461,"end":146.36,"text":"當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度"},{"start":147.594,"end":172.928,"text":"所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒"},{"start":174.554,"end":187.059,"text":"然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理阿這是2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正阿你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的稅就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是"},{"start":205.238,"end":229.39,"text":"漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個"},{"start":233.413,"end":253.303,"text":"主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例他是明定"},{"start":254.727,"end":270.996,"text":"原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回"},{"start":272.159,"end":300.155,"text":"有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、林務局、內政部跟我參與都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不知道困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告第一點就是"},{"start":301.725,"end":330.265,"text":"你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例嘛不只白毛臺 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所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦"},{"start":331.394,"end":356.024,"text":"那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?"},{"start":357.452,"end":386.231,"text":"對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔並不是喔有些不能成豬的是因為它是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的有些是藉由經濟問題甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的"},{"start":388.033,"end":416.869,"text":"結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走啦不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了"},{"start":418.482,"end":435.869,"text":"這些對岸過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊"},{"start":440.489,"end":457.675,"text":"拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小型一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議啊對不對"},{"start":460.956,"end":470.16,"text":"法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部內政部又推給什麼 原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛 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為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到"},{"start":604.366,"end":633.638,"text":"沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的"},{"start":634.568,"end":663.343,"text":"不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決我們要求就是這樣子而已所以你不要在這邊推卸責任沒有推卸責任那你就回去看怎麼樣面對這些抗爭所以把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊"},{"start":664.584,"end":680.535,"text":"那沒有共識,不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院,阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對,你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題,要這個政府幹嘛政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜,阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來阿"}]}},{"id":"148970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148970","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029e0a4cd252e77cba694fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a03228543b75889b48ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:53:42 - 12:02:04","影片長度":"00:08:22","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":502,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:02:04+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:53:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":857,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（11時53分）謝謝主席，有請夷將主委。"],["主席：夷將主委，請。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：主委好。主委，去年臺灣加入了由紐西蘭發起的原住民族經貿合作協議，就是所謂的IPETCA，創始的會員國除了有紐西蘭、臺灣，還有加拿大跟澳洲，這是一個國際首創以推動原住民族經貿跟投資議題為主的國際經貿協議。真的非常感謝夷將主委的努力。我們經歷了一年多的籌備，所以這4個會員國其實在APEC期間在美國召開了第一次的夥伴關係理事會，在會中我方有提出3個優先合作項目，第一個就是推動永續旅遊合作，帶動我方原住民族的經濟產業；第二個就是建立官方對官方，還有民間對民間的經貿窗口；第三個是氣候變遷公正轉型的碳匯。","對於這三點，本席真的是非常的肯定，可是除了這三個之外，之後可能還有很多的合作項目可以提出。本席有提出兩個建議，除了旅遊還有經貿的合作之外，其實我們還可以強化、深化再生能源產業跟文創產業。本席提出這一個建議其實也有參考過原民會在2017年對外委託的一個研究，就是臺灣原住民族產業跟紐西蘭貿易之可行性的評估報告，我在想既然我們已經有這個經貿平臺，很多之前委外的研究內容其實都可以在這裡來落實。本席剛剛有提到所謂的再生能源產業，因為臺灣現在也在積極地推行再生能源產業，像我們的會員國紐西蘭，它有80%的電力是來自於再生能源，其中有17.8%是來自於地熱。去年我們再生能源條例在修正的時候，其實也增設了地熱專案。在紐西蘭其實有九個地熱發電區，其中有三個是由毛利人所共同持有管理，紐西蘭的地熱電廠特別在毛利人參與的程度是非常的高，政府更是輔導毛利人自行申請籌建地熱的電廠。","臺灣的地熱潛能資源有40.6%其實是在我們原住民的傳統領域，所以臺灣是否能夠順利發展地熱其實跟原住民族的溝通合作有很重要的關係，所以我們也希望臺灣可以透過原民經貿協議這個平臺跟其他國家取經，跟紐西蘭做一個交流。我不曉得夷將主委跟我們的會員國，有沒有想到以後我們在地熱方面可以來做交流或是做相互的投資？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員做兩點說明，第一點是關於你一開始提到IPETCA這次在美國討論到永續旅遊這個部分的議題，其實明年的世界原住民族旅遊高峰會已經確定要在臺灣舉行。"],["羅委員美玲：明年啊？"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：明年的4月。"],["羅委員美玲：是，這是非常好的事。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：第一屆是在紐西蘭，第二屆是今年的上半年在澳洲，第三屆在臺灣是紐西蘭主動推薦給這個旅遊高峰會說希望由臺灣來承辦，我們已經取得承辦的責任，所以明年4月會舉辦，這是第一點說明。","第二點是關於委員最後提到有關地熱的部分，其實我們這幾年跟紐西蘭已經有持續在做相關的交流，他們已經多次來臺灣跟我們分享他們有關地熱，即剛剛委員指教的這個部分。所以像目前在臺東延平的紅葉溫泉，它同時有溫泉跟地熱，這個部分目前公所也正在做這樣的處理，我們也會借助紐西蘭過去的經驗，持續做地熱的發展，讓原住民在再生能源這個部分也有一個實質參與的權益。"],["羅委員美玲：是，我想紐西蘭其實真的有很多可以借鏡的地方。","再來我還有提到文創產業，像臺灣也是南島語族的發源地，臺灣原住民多元的語言跟文化我想應該也是臺灣的一個主流文化，文創產業其實是一個很棒的發展途徑。像IPETCA會員國之一澳洲的新南維爾斯州有十個原住民的土地委員會，他成立了一個國家原住民設計機構就是NADA，我們臺灣也有一個LiMA，可是LiMA畢竟是一個電商平臺，它跟NADA的性質比較不太一樣。像NADA他們會運用原住民的傳統智慧、藝術創作，跟當代的設計進行媒合，然後開發出商品跟作品，他們甚至還會跟原住民的藝術家、設計公司共同開發出比如說具有原住民族風格的傢俱、家飾等等，這些利潤都是NADA或者是藝術家、設計公司共享的。臺灣目前還沒有辦法做到這樣，我們只是提供一個像LiMA這樣的電商平台，我在想會員國澳洲、紐西蘭其實對原住民文化的重視是跟臺灣是一樣的，在文創方面我們是不是也可以跟他們來做一個交流，請問主委。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：跟委員說明，剛剛你提到這個LiMA的電商平台，應該是從去年就開始推動，但事實上我們也有實體的電商平台已經……"],["羅委員美玲：是，它是一個電商平台，就是供商家做商品的展售、展示，可是我們對於設計師、藝術家提供的支援可能沒有像澳洲新南威爾斯這麼的深入，我是這麼覺得。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：我們這個部分包括鄭文燦副院長還在當桃園市市長的時候就已經完成一個很重要的國際原住民產業園區，應該明年就會正式營運，委員對於文創的建議，我們會納入在整個我們推動跟國際交流合作文創的部分，包括紐西蘭、澳洲，我們會持續交流。"],["羅委員美玲：對，我想我們都是屬於南島語族的國家，我們在這方面應該有很多合作的機會，我們的原住民文化走向國際也是原民會應該要來努力的方向，尤其是我們現在有IPETCA這個平台，讓我們走入國際有更多更多的機會。"],["夷將．拔路兒主任委員：謝謝委員對於原民IPETCA的認知那麼深入，而且完全掌握原民的地熱和文創的部分，謝謝委員對這部分的指教，我們會持續依委員的建議來推廣未來整個原住民族產業。"],["羅委員美玲：謝謝主委，原民會加油！"],["主席：現在休息5分鐘，休息後繼續開會。","休息（12時2分）","繼續開會（12時7分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.485343750000002,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.36284375,"end":55.617218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.80284375,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.64096875,"end":98.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.12096875,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.26971875,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.82846875,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.28659375,"end":227.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.73784375000002,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":234.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.08721875,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.30659375000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.32721875000001,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.18346875,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.87909375,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.43534375000002,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.77221875,"end":253.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.71284375000002,"end":256.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.18909375000004,"end":258.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.79221875,"end":264.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.63096875,"end":265.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.40284375000005,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.69784375,"end":269.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.18284375,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.42659375,"end":277.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.40096875,"end":280.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.32034375,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.78346875,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.27221875000004,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.90471875000003,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.94659375000003,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.03909375,"end":338.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.88096875,"end":397.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.53846875000005,"end":398.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.15846875000005,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.97971875,"end":411.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.65034375000005,"end":427.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.20284375,"end":412.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.55284375,"end":413.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.94721875000005,"end":428.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.04846875000004,"end":430.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.25471875000005,"end":432.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.40221875000003,"end":433.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.54971875,"end":437.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.69659375000003,"end":441.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.29096875000005,"end":447.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.59846875000005,"end":445.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.50534375,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.05659375000005,"end":478.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.57221875000005,"end":479.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.21346875,"end":481.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.08221875000004,"end":487.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.41471875,"end":495.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.27846875000006,"end":498.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.17659375000005,"end":499.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.26096875,"end":499.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.34534375000004,"end":499.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.42971875,"end":499.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.96971875,"end":500.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.39159375,"end":501.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.40846875000005,"end":501.89346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.232,"end":36.59,"text":"去年台灣加入了這個由紐西蘭發起的原住民族經貿合作協議就是所謂的IPECA那創始的會員國除了有紐西蘭、台灣還有加拿大跟這個澳洲那這是一個國際首創以推動原住民族經貿跟投資議題為主的這個國際經貿協議那真的是非常感謝一將主委的這個努力"},{"start":37.15,"end":54.841,"text":"那我們經歷了一年多的籌備所以這四個會員國其實在APEC期間美國召開了第一次的夥伴關係理事會那在會中我方有提出了三個優先合作的項目那第一個就是"},{"start":55.922,"end":81.687,"text":"推動永續旅遊合作,帶動我方原住民族的經濟產業第二點就是建立官方對官方還有民間對民間的經貿窗口第三還有氣候變遷、公正轉型的碳匯對這三點本席真的是非常的肯定可是除了這三個之外之後可能還有很多的合作項目可以提出本席有提出兩個建議"},{"start":83.067,"end":97.612,"text":"除了這個旅遊還有經貿的合作之外其實我們還可以強化深化這個再生能源產業這個跟文創產業其實本期有提出這個建議其實也有參考過其實我們"},{"start":99.213,"end":105.657,"text":"原住民族產業與紐西蘭貿易之可行性的評估報告那我在想竟然我們有這個經貿平台其實有很多之前我們請委外的這個研究的這個內容其實我們都可以在這裡來做這個落實那美希剛剛有提到就是說所謂的再生能源產業因為台灣現在呢也在積極的推行這個再生能源產業"},{"start":128.973,"end":131.294,"text":"紐西蘭有80%的電力是來自再生能源其中有17.8%是來自於地熱去年我們再生能源條例修正的時候其實我們也增設了地熱專案所以在紐西蘭來講"},{"start":149.625,"end":164.21,"text":"他的地熱其實有九個地熱發電區其中有三個是由毛利人所共同持有管理紐西蘭的地熱電廠特別在毛利人參與的程度是非常的高"},{"start":164.93,"end":187.41,"text":"那政府更是輔導毛利人自行申請籌建地熱的電廠那台灣的地熱潛能資源有40.6%其實是在我們原住民的傳統領域所以台灣是否能夠順利發展地熱其實跟原住民族的溝通合作有很"},{"start":188.21,"end":214.497,"text":"很重要的這個關係所以我們也是希望說我們台灣其實可以透過這個原民經貿協議這個平台然後跟其他國家的這個來取經然後跟這個紐西蘭其實我們可以做一個交流那我不曉得說一將主委在跟我們的這個會員國在以後呢有沒有想到就是說我們在地政方面的我們可以來做一個交流或是做相互的這個投資"},{"start":215.997,"end":234.681,"text":"跟委員兩點的說明第一點是關於你一開始提到的IPECA這次在美國討論到永續旅遊的這個部分的議題那其實明年的世界原民族禮物高峰會已經確定要在台灣舉行明年的試驗第一屆是在紐西蘭"},{"start":239.702,"end":255.709,"text":"第二屆在今年的上半年在澳洲第三屆在台灣是紐西蘭主動推薦給我們這個旅遊高峰會說希望台灣來承辦我們已經取得這個承辦的這個責任所以明年4月這是一點說明"},{"start":257.39,"end":276.7,"text":"第二點是關於委員最後提到這個有關地樂的部分其實我們這幾年跟紐西蘭已經有持續做相關的交流他們已經有多次來台灣來跟我們分享他們有關地樂剛剛委員提到這個部分所以像目前在台東的應該是在"},{"start":278.484,"end":297.093,"text":"原品的紅葉溫泉同時有溫泉跟地熱目前公所也正在做這樣的處理這個部分我們也會藉助我們紐西亞的過去經驗實際做地熱的發展讓原住民在再生能源也有一個實質參與的潛力"},{"start":299.654,"end":317.179,"text":"所以我想說紐西蘭其實有真的有很多可以接近的地方那再來我還有提到文創這個產業像台灣我們也是南島語系的這個運輸的這個發源地那台灣原住民的這個多元的語言跟文化我想應該也是台灣的一個主流文化"},{"start":317.699,"end":337.53,"text":"那文創產業它其實是一個很棒的這個發展的這個途徑那像這個澳洲也就是這個IPECA的這個會員國之一澳洲的新南威爾斯州它有10個原住民土地委員會那成立了一個國家原住民設計機構就是NATA我們所謂的NATA"},{"start":338.951,"end":353.724,"text":"那我們臺灣也有一個LIMA可是LIMA它畢竟是一個電商平臺它跟那個NADA的這個性質比較不太一樣像那個NADA他們會運用原住民的這個傳統智慧跟藝術創作跟當代的這個設計進行這個媒合然後開發出這個商品跟這個作品"},{"start":360.41,"end":388.994,"text":"那他們甚至還會跟這個原住民的這個藝術家、設計公司共同開發出比如說具有原住民族風格的像家具、家飾等等那這個利潤大家都是像NADA或是藝術家跟這些公司它都是共享的那台灣目前還沒有辦法做到這樣我們只是提供一個像LIMA這樣子的一個電商平台那我在想說我們的會員國澳洲、紐西蘭其實他們對於原住民文化的這個重視是跟台灣是一樣的"},{"start":389.954,"end":409.471,"text":"在文創方面我們是不是也可以跟他們來做一個交互的交流請問主委跟委員說明剛剛你提到這個LIMA的電商平臺應該是從去年就開始推動事實上我們也有實體的電商平臺已經是一個電商平臺"},{"start":413.514,"end":437.847,"text":"共商家來做一個商品的一個展示等等可是我們對於這個設計師藝術家的這個提供的這個支援其實可能沒有像說澳中新南威爾斯這麼的深入我是這麼覺得是主委繼續我們這個部分其實包括我們在鄭文昌副院長還在當桃園市長的時候他已經完成一個很重要的"},{"start":439.095,"end":457.01,"text":"國際原住民產業的這個園區這個部分應該在明年就會正式來營運整個委員的這個有關文創的這個建議我們會把納入在整個我們推動跟國際的這個文創的部分包括紐西蘭澳洲這個部分我們會持續做交流"},{"start":457.35,"end":481.139,"text":"對我真想說我們都是屬於南島語族的這個國家我真想我們在這方面應該有很多的合作的這個機會我想說那我們原住民的文化呢主向國際也是一個我想也是原民會應該要來努力的這個方向尤其是我們現在有一個IPECA的這個平台我想在我們走入國際我想有更多更多的這個機會是我很謝謝委員最嚴敏的這個"},{"start":482.399,"end":500.918,"text":"這個IPECA的那個認知那麼深入而且都完全掌握嚴敏的地熱還有包括文創這個部分謝謝委員對這個部分的整個指教我們會持續依委員的這些建議來推動我們未來的整個原住民族產業的這個推廣OK 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Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":700,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:53:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:41:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.240343750000001,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.37409375,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.617843750000002,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.23346875,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.50346875,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.42659375,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.26971875,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.736593750000004,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.11534375,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.329093750000006,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.86034375,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.09034375,"end":82.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.25846875,"end":84.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.70534375000001,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.58659375,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.44721875,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.15159375,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.92284375000001,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.15471875,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.25159375000001,"end":100.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.44971875,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.84596875000001,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.38159375000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.12409375,"end":107.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.19971875,"end":109.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.63409375,"end":115.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.37971875000001,"end":124.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.07471875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.30159375000002,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.60096875000002,"end":167.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.78096875,"end":173.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.00784375,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.10409375,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.56784375,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.08221875,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.49971875,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.31784375,"end":189.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.22909375,"end":194.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.13971875000001,"end":198.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.10534375,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.60284375,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.53034375000001,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.29346875000002,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.99784375000002,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.00596875000002,"end":219.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.75596875000002,"end":224.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.05909375000002,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.40346875,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.80409375000002,"end":240.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.82034375,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.90034375000002,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.65096875,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.98409375000003,"end":248.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.97096875000003,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.97909375,"end":251.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.22784375,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.56909375,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.58159375,"end":258.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.58971875000003,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.69471875,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"S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謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029932b42ebf8c01e0694fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃世杰","委員發言時間":"11:31:58 - 11:41:28","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":570,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:41:28+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:31:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["黃委員世杰：（11時32分）謝謝主席。我們是不是請法務部黃謀信常次？"],["主席：黃次長請。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員世杰：次長好。我記得你好像也是我們桃園的鄉親，你老家在觀音白玉，離甘泉寺很近，對不對？你家到甘泉寺走路幾分鐘？應該5分鐘以內就走得到。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情，但是這件事情跟我們共同的故鄉有很大的關係，所以我希望很明確的請你來進行協助。桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎？桃科。"],["黃次長謀信：在觀音附近。"],["黃委員世杰：在觀音對不對？在白玉跟大潭嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：有3家SRF電廠要進駐，在地方上產生很大的爭議，你知道這個新聞嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，我知道。"],["黃委員世杰：那麼你也知道已經引發了很多的抗議。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定，但是這個過程裡面也引發了一些其中是不是有弊案的爭議，我先讓你看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["黃委員世杰：次長，你有看清楚嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：這個議員你知道是誰嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，我不清楚。"],["黃委員世杰：不瞭解是不是？可能很久沒回老家了。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：這個議員是我們現任的桃園市議員吳進昌，他就在你的老家觀音的信仰中心甘泉寺前面說了這段話。請教次長，如果這個議員所說屬實，有廠商找民意代表，期約5,000萬這麼大的利益，而且是1年，言下之意就是每年都有喔！然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使，這個有沒有觸犯刑法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，就抽象的法律來講，因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員，他是公務員，貪污治罪條例對公務員行求期約或交付賄賂的話，在法律上是有處罰的規定，我講法律上。"],["黃委員世杰：所以民意代表也是廣義上行使公權力……"],["黃次長謀信：他也是公務員規範的對象。"],["黃委員世杰：刑法上的公務員嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：沒錯。"],["黃委員世杰：所以他所描述的情節，我們檢調單位是不是應該要偵查？"],["黃次長謀信：委員已經問到個案，個案上檢察官如果因告訴、告發、自首或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑，其所屬地檢署可以依法來處理。"],["黃委員世杰：我知道你們法務部調查局也有肅貪組，地方上也都有據點，知道這樣子的情資，有沒有主動去偵查？因為這個事關我們人民的重大權益，而且5,000萬，如果他議員任期4年，加起來是2億，這麼重大，搞不好破紀錄，如果這個賄款成真的話。而且他還意圖指涉有其他人有相關這些情節，他自己說他自己沒有拿，到底有沒有拿我不知道，他所描述、指控的情節，難道我們的檢調單位不應該主動偵查嗎？不應該請他具體說明嗎？他連相對人都講得相對清楚，那三家裡面有兩家去找他，他只是沒講是哪兩家而已。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，有這樣子的披露，理論上來講，所屬的地檢署知道有這個犯罪嫌疑的話，按照刑訴法第二百二十八條的規定應即開始偵辦，但前提是所屬地檢署要判斷這個案子是不是要啟動偵查。"],["黃委員世杰：我們現在是不是可以請你們轉知，所屬應該是桃園地檢署？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員世杰：還有你們法務部調查局相關的權責單位，就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益，這麼嚴重妨害行政官員以及民意代表執行公務的廉潔性，這種指控這麼嚴重，竟然沒有任何調查，連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，任何人知道有犯罪行為都可以依法提出告發，包括委員今天這個質詢，我們也當作告發案來轉知所屬機關處理。"],["黃委員世杰：好，請你們要很嚴肅認真的去查察，包括這位議員所說的是不是事實，以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人，包含行政官員、其他民意代表。","你知道他講完之後的第二天，我們觀音有兩席議員，另外一席議員就被民眾問說：他拿5,000萬，那你有沒有？","我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的，我們應該要很嚴肅地去看待它，如果連這樣子的披露跟指控都不處理，我們的檢調單位當作都沒看到，要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護政府機關，包含民意代表行使職務的公正跟廉潔性？"],["黃次長謀信：是。委員今天質詢之後，我們會把資料轉給桃園地檢署，桃園地檢署會依法處理。"],["黃委員世杰：因為我們有共同的故鄉，希望你站在鄉親的權益上面，一定要嚴加督導這個事情，一定要徹查，可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我沒有權力處理，地檢署……"],["黃委員世杰：我知道你要轉知。"],["黃次長謀信：對，會依法處理。"],["黃委員世杰：我們的檢察體系我知道權力分離。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["黃委員世杰：另外，剛剛很多委員也有提到中國介選，比較常講到的就是假訊息。最近好像橋頭地檢署有個案件涉及用低價、甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊，請問有這個案子嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，現在事實上也不只橋頭地檢署，有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中。"],["黃委員世杰：你們有沒有確實掌握這個所謂的邀請，因為他一定在臺灣有相關組織或窗口做這樣的邀請，不然你怎麼知道要去哪裡報名？"],["黃次長謀信：從各相關地檢署發布的新聞稿來看，甚至有些已經做具體的強制處分，甚至有聲請羈押的動作。羈押或強制處分的前提要有犯罪嫌疑，所以就具體事證來講，所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握，要不然不會做相關的強制處分，甚至聲請羈押的動作。"],["黃委員世杰：辦這個案子不是說事後去補救，如果可以的話，選前剩下三十幾天，這種行為我們要能夠主動遏止，所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到相關的組織，因為你們蔡部長接受媒體訪問的時候已經說這個有可能涉及違反反滲透法的相關法令，所以它不只是單純的賄選或相關一般的國內案件，這個其實跟我們國家的民主、獨立自主有相當大的關係。所以我希望我們的檢調單位能夠正視，而且能夠嚇阻這樣的行為，相關新聞稿出來也要廣為宣傳，跟我們啟動的反賄選查察等等的相關宣傳要結合在一起。"],["黃次長謀信：除了反賄選宣導之外，我們相信最嚴厲、最嚴格的查賄就是最好的反賄，經過我們嚴厲的查賄之後，它其實達到一個宣導的作用。"],["黃委員世杰：好，那我就希望你們在宣導上面，這一種型態也要把它列入。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：很多人可能不瞭解這個事情的嚴重性，事實上很多地方的里長或什麼的，他不知道這件事情有多嚴重，我們應該要加大宣導力度，讓他們不要誤蹈法網。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["黃委員世杰：以上，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：等一下在羅委員質詢完之後，休息5分鐘。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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謝謝主席齁我們是不是請那個法務部黃謀信長次黃次長請委員好市長好朋友好我記得你好像也是這個我們桃園的鄉親嘛對你老家在觀音的白玉嘛對不對魚乾泉寺很近對不對魚乾澇乾泉寺走路幾分鐘"},{"start":31.043,"end":52.581,"text":"應該5分鐘以內就走得到了那今天有一個這個我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情但是這個事情跟我們共同的故鄉很大的關係所以我希望很明確的請你來進行一個協助那麼最近桃園我們的桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎桃科"},{"start":53.241,"end":73.6,"text":"在觀音附近在觀音嘛對不對在白玉跟大潭對那麼有三家SRF電廠要進駐在地方上產生很大的爭議對你知道這個新聞嗎我知道那麼你也知道說所以已經引發了很多的這個抗議對所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定"},{"start":76.875,"end":85.36,"text":"但是這個過程裡面也引發了一些是不是在裡面有弊案的一些爭議我先讓你看一下一個影片來放影片有沒有聲音"},{"start":104.145,"end":128.857,"text":"當我在3月份披露當我在3月份披露SRF廠在我們的桃科設廠之後陸續有兩家要來摸頭我在觀音、甘田市慈觀音佛祖面前向大家鄭重報告所說的這個利益"},{"start":130.171,"end":142.138,"text":"他說是前朝決定的我是新科議員我不要講話就好一年要多少要給我五張很大張喔五千萬"},{"start":147.675,"end":173.596,"text":"市長,你看得有清楚嗎?這個議員你知道是誰嗎?不知道解,是不是?可能很久沒回老家了這個議員是我們現任的討議室議員吳敬昌他就在你的老家這個觀音的信仰中心甘玄寺前面講了這段話請教市長,如果這個議員所說屬實由廠商找民意代表契約"},{"start":175.236,"end":187.487,"text":"五千萬這麼大的利益而且是一年了言下之意就是每年都有然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使這個有沒有出犯刑法"},{"start":188.568,"end":216.064,"text":"官員報告就抽象的法律來講如果他因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員他是公務員那我們的貪污罪條例上面對這一個公務員行求契約或交付賄賂的話他法律上他是有處罰的規定我講法律上所以這個民意代表也是這個廣義的這個行使公權他也是公務員行法上的公務員嘛對不對所以呢他所描述的情節"},{"start":217.265,"end":240.674,"text":"是不是我們的檢調單位應該要偵查的那委員已經問到個案個案上他那個就是說那檢察官如果說應告訴告發這時候其他行事只有犯罪嫌疑那所屬的管轄的地檢署他可以依法來處理那但是我知道你們法務部電腦局也有這個宿攤組對不對那地方上也都有據點嘛對不對"},{"start":242.174,"end":270.212,"text":"知道這樣的情資有沒有主動去偵查這個是關我們人民的重大的權益而且這個五千萬如果他一人任期四年加起來是兩億這有沒有重大的這個可能是這個搞不好破紀錄如果這個匯款成真的話而且他還意圖指涉說有其他的人有相關的這些情節他自己說他自己沒有拿"},{"start":271.204,"end":288.857,"text":"到底有沒有拿我不知道了那他所描述指控的這樣的情節難道我們的檢察單位不應該主動來偵查嗎不應該請他去具體就說他連相對的講得相對清楚那三家裡面有兩家去找他他只是沒講是哪兩家而已"},{"start":290.803,"end":308.187,"text":"跟我們報告那因為這個有這樣子的披露理論上來講他所屬的地檢署他知道這個有這個犯罪嫌疑的話按照我們刑訴法228條的規定他應急開始偵辦那前提是所屬的地檢署要做一個判斷這個案子是要啟動偵查那我們現在是不是可以請你們轉資這一個"},{"start":310.988,"end":334.404,"text":"所屬應該是桃園地檢署還有你們法務部調查局相關的權責單位就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益這麼嚴重的妨礙我們行政的官員以及我們的民意代表執行公務的連結性這種指控這麼嚴重竟然沒有任何的調查連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有"},{"start":335.612,"end":361.288,"text":"各位報告任何人知道這個有犯罪行為的話都可以依法提出告發報告委員今天在這個質詢那我們也當作告發案來轉知所屬機關其實我們要很嚴肅認真的去查查包括這位議員所說的是不是事實以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人包含行政官員包含其他民意代表你知道他講完之後第二天我們官員有兩席議員"},{"start":362.573,"end":367.008,"text":"另外一席議員就被民眾問說他哪有五千萬那你有沒有"},{"start":368.444,"end":392.737,"text":"我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的我們應該要很嚴肅的去看待它如果連這樣子的披露跟這個指控我們都不處理我們假如大家當中沒看到那我們要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護我們政府機關八二民意代表食食植物的公正跟廉潔性"},{"start":393.911,"end":410.02,"text":"是委員今天執勤之後我們會把資料轉給台灣地檢署台灣地檢署會依法處理好那也是因為我們都是共同的故鄉希望你站在我們鄉親的權益上面一定要嚴加來督導這個事情一定要來徹查可以嗎"},{"start":411.302,"end":431.392,"text":"地檢署我沒有權利處理地檢署假、原委員我知道你要組織我們這個檢查體系我知道這個權利分離謝謝那另外還有這個剛剛很多委員也有提到這個中國借選那麼比較常講到就是假訊息那最近好像橋頭地檢署一個案件涉及這個"},{"start":433.682,"end":452.199,"text":"用低價甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊請問有這個案子嗎各位報告現在事實上也不只橋樓地檢署有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中那你們有沒有確實的掌握"},{"start":453.14,"end":482.244,"text":"他這個所謂的邀請或是說因為他一定在台灣有相關的這個組織或是說有窗口來去做這樣的邀請不然你怎麼知道去哪裡報名各位報告那從各相關地檢署發布的新聞稿來看他甚至有些已經做這個具體的強制處分甚至有申請羈押的動作那羈押或強制處分前提要有犯罪嫌疑所以就具體事證來講所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握要不然他不會有做相關的強制處分甚至申請羈押的動作好"},{"start":483.524,"end":505.074,"text":"我們是希望說辦這個案子不是說事後去補救如果可以的話選前剩下三十幾天這種行為我們要能夠主動去把它遏止所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到這個相關的組織因為你們蔡部長協眾媒體訪問的時候已經說這個是涉及到有可能違反反滲透法"},{"start":506.154,"end":525.425,"text":"相關的這個法令所以它不只是單純的這個會選或是說什麼相關的一般的我們國內案件這個其實跟這個我們國家民主的這個獨立自主相當大的關係所以希望說我們的檢調單位能夠正式而且能夠去嚇阻這樣的行為"},{"start":526.665,"end":546.477,"text":"這個相關的信息搞出來也要廣為宣傳跟我們啟動的這個反會選查查等等的相關的這個宣傳要結合在一起各位報告我們除了這個反會選宣導之外我們相信最嚴厲最嚴格的查會就是最好的反會經過我們嚴厲的查會之後它其實達到一個宣導的作用"},{"start":546.923,"end":548.644,"text":"市民、民族、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會、社會"}]}},{"id":"148967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202993414f19f3c56faf94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322826982371071214a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳以信","委員發言時間":"11:19:37 - 11:31:48","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":731,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:31:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:19:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["陳委員以信：（11時19分）謝謝召委，請中選會李主委備詢。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員以信：主委早。我想要針對臺南市現在的立法委員選舉第五選區，現在候選人是王家貞，他現在因為有一個之前的助理費案件，所以在緩刑當中，我現在要請問關於他登記參選立法委員的資格，中選會現在的認定是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員做個說明，有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定問題，我們會在這個月15號的委員會議進行認定。"],["陳委員以信：你對他這個案子有沒有瞭解啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個案子我是看媒體報導，有一些瞭解，但是真正……"],["陳委員以信：你不知道他這個案子可能有爭議，你們有可能會不受理他的登記，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會來認定。"],["陳委員以信：我當然知道，我們現在就是要來討論這一個事情，為什麼？因為我們已經預先看到這個事情。"],["李主任委員進勇：大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第二十六條第九款的這個規定。"],["陳委員以信：對！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們就第二十六條第九款的規定，它是非常清楚的，也就是你犯了第二十六條第一款到第六款以外的罪，經過法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了，還沒有執行、或者執行還沒有完、或者是在緩刑中、或者是行刑權時效消滅等等，這些種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況。"],["陳委員以信：我知道這個修法，這個修法當然還有很多的疑義，這不是我們現在討論的重點。我現在要問的就是，這個修法是在5月的時候進行，王家貞當時案件的判決是在2月，所以他那時候聲請緩刑的時間點是2月，他怎麼會知道3個月之後，他的緩刑聲請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有關於候選人資格的認定時間點就是在登記截止的時間，登記截止的時間也就是24號、到24號。"],["陳委員以信：不是，我是說2月王家貞他要選擇緩刑的時候，他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑，3個月之後會因為修法而沒有辦法取得候選人的資格呢？如果他2月的時候選擇易科罰金就沒這回事啊！他當時信賴緩刑並不會有其他的後遺症，這個信賴為什麼到3個月之後不見了？然後現在中選會可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想緩刑或者是易科罰金，這是法院的判決來做決定……"],["陳委員以信：對啊，他就是判決他可以易科罰金、也可以緩刑啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：倒不一定是被告……"],["陳委員以信：不是，你現在第九款只有針對緩刑、沒有針對易科罰金嘛，所以他2月的時候如果選擇易科罰金，他現在就可以選了。"],["李主任委員進勇：易科罰金也必須要執行完畢。"],["陳委員以信：易科罰金，錢繳了就執行完畢了嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["陳委員以信：對啊，所以他當時選擇易科罰金，他現在就可以選了啊！結果他當時選擇緩刑，然後你們現在就有可能按照新法第二十六條第九款讓他不能夠登記。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想不管任何的個案，就是說我們……"],["陳委員以信：什麼不管任何個案！我告訴你喔！來，我問你，刑法第二條是什麼概念？你自己學法律，不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念？"],["李主任委員進勇：我知道、我知道。"],["陳委員以信：什麼概念？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是這個資格跟刑法那個……"],["陳委員以信：不是！刑法第二條就是罪刑法定主義嘛，如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候，新法是比較嚴格，他在行為的時候不知道新法的話，那麼必須要怎麼樣？必須要從舊從輕嘛，這是最基本的原則！"],["李主任委員進勇：我想現在……"],["陳委員以信：可是他在2月的時候根本不知道5月會修法，他當時選擇緩刑，之後他怎麼知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權？"],["李主任委員進勇：委員的這個意見……"],["陳委員以信：這沒有期待可能性啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：委員的這個意見我們予以尊重，但是因為這已經牽涉到個案了，而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會，所以我也沒有辦法……"],["陳委員以信：我現在就是要告訴你，你們的認定有可能會侵害他的權利嘛……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們一定……"],["陳委員以信：你們在做一個非常嚴重的處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們一定是根據法律的規定來做審查、嚴格地來審查。"],["陳委員以信：法律的規定現在就有問題！我現在就要開始講，去年是不是有這樣的案例、洪本成的案例？是不是在彰化有這樣的案例？"],["李主任委員進勇：是，洪本成……"],["陳委員以信：你記不記得？你記得嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：有這個案子。"],["陳委員以信：當時是不是有提出行政假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員以信：有沒有同意假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：有……"],["陳委員以信：有同意嘛！來，這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分？"],["李主任委員進勇：法院……"],["陳委員以信：第一個，它是屬於公法上面的爭議，為什麼？因為是當事人的參政權，跟你們是相對人，所以有公法上的爭議。第二個，對於當事人的參政權而言，如果他這次不能夠選，他的參政權是重大的損害、無法回復，而且無法以金錢彌補，對不對？然後他說，對於你這個相對人而言，如果你現在讓他選，到最後你們認為他不符合消極要件，你們可以怎麼做？你的救濟是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果法院有假處分的話，我們會遵照假處分的規定。"],["陳委員以信：我當然知道！我現在就是要告訴你，如果有假處分，你當然要聽，可是我們現在先看假處分的理由，你本身還有救濟管道，對不對？什麼是救濟管道？你不知道呀？"],["李主任委員進勇：誰的救濟管道？"],["陳委員以信：你的啦！如果現在給你行政假處分，他真的選了、選上了，你怎麼救濟？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會斟酌案情，看有沒有抗告的必要。"],["陳委員以信：你一定會按照選罷法第二十九條提起當選無效之訴嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：在假處分還沒有確定之前，我們會斟酌他的理由，決定是不是要抗告。"],["陳委員以信：你當然要抗告，你被駁回嘛！你去年的抗告被最高行政法院駁回，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：誰的？"],["陳委員以信：你的抗告啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：洪本成的案件嗎？"],["陳委員以信：對啊！你被駁回對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：本案最後他敗訴了。"],["陳委員以信：那是什麼時候？"],["李主任委員進勇：本案最後……"],["陳委員以信：來，這個就是關鍵了，去年你抗告被駁回，所以他可以選，選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟，對不對？對不對嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：有選舉無效訴訟。"],["陳委員以信：對嘛！你今年才提嘛！提了以後的結果是另一回事。但是重點來了，重點在利益衡平之下，你現在如果不讓他選，他的權益就是立即重大而且不可回復的侵害，而你！你們相對人是有救濟權的耶！你們有救濟權，所以為什麼高等行政法院跟最高行政法院統統都駁回你們的聲請？而你現在、我們事件發生之初，我就告訴你有這種狀況，你還執意而行，連刑法都不可以從新從重……"],["李主任委員進勇：我現在還沒有執意而行，因為那個必須要15號的委員會來做決定。"],["陳委員以信：如果15號判定讓他可以繼續選，我就跟你說對不起，我就跟你說對不起。"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是我一個人的決定……"],["陳委員以信：所以我就跟你講嘛！我們現在就可以預見15號的狀況，你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛！因為你們認為新法已經把他的資格取消掉，而事實上他在新法資格取消的時候，早在3個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待的可能性，他的信賴利益呢？完全受到侵害！他根本不會知道3個月之後要修法嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是根據現行的法律規定來進行審查的工作。"],["陳委員以信：所以你現在看到現行法律即將要侵害到他不可回復、金錢無法補償的參政權的時候，你們兩手一攤，什麼都不做嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，如果當事人有其他救濟管道的話，我們也尊重……"],["陳委員以信：我們現在就在救濟啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也尊重。"],["陳委員以信：我告訴你，現在這個案件已經發生了，你們中選會仍然可以在15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情，但是我要告訴你……"],["李主任委員進勇：15號之前什麼都不能做，要等15號……"],["陳委員以信：你看看，你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果，實際上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：15號大家開會、委員會做決議了，我們才會有一個結果出來。"],["陳委員以信：我現在要求你們，你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例，為什麼？因為你們的權力是不對等的，你現在一旦剝奪了他的參政權，事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性，他根本沒有辦法預見3個月之後他選擇緩刑這件事情會被取消參選資格。再來，你現在身為中選會主委，你是有救濟管道的，你的救濟管道就是之後你可以提出選舉無效訴訟，而這個是可以回復的，但對他而言，你現在不讓他登記，他就沒有了，而且最高行政法院的判決裡面講了一個很重要的原則是什麼？即民主原則，也就是說王家貞自己本身有權參政，人民有權利選擇他，這個叫選舉權，我們有權利選擇他，結果人民選擇王家貞的權利被你中選會剝奪了，而剝奪的理由……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是被我剝奪了。"],["陳委員以信：你在認定上面，基本上在認定上是有問題的，因為這個法修得太快！"],["李主任委員進勇：這個修法在今年6月才經過立法院三讀通過……"],["陳委員以信：那我問你，2月的時候他選擇緩刑的時候……"],["李主任委員進勇：是立法院通過的法律、我們根據大院通過的法律來執行……"],["陳委員以信：我問你，2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇緩刑會被剝奪參政權？為什麼？你知不知道4個月以後你會不會下臺？"],["李主任委員進勇：這在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量，所以我們……"],["陳委員以信：你不用去考慮立法的過程，我現在要告訴你，你們現在即將要對撞，即將就要發生，這個禮拜就要發生，你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條罪刑法定主義還要嚴格的判斷，從後去剝奪一個人的參政權，參政權是憲法的基本人權，你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇。我現在就要告訴你，現在最高行政法院也好，高等行政法院也好，去年所有的判決都已經講出這樣的原則，更何況你現在身為一個相對人，你有救濟的管道，你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果有法院確定的裁判，我們都會尊重，都會按照確定的裁判來執行。"],["陳委員以信：當然，今天如果有行政假處分的話就這麼做，我現在是希望你們在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例並充分的討論。"],["李主任委員進勇：事前我沒有辦法，事前我只能夠根據法律規定是怎麼樣，我照這樣來回答委員的質詢。"],["陳委員以信：我希望中選會的委員在開會的時候能充分知道這個案件，做充分的討論！"],["李主任委員進勇：有利、不利的，我們都會予以考量。"],["陳委員以信：這個案件其實是一個……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有預設立場。"],["陳委員以信：我們今天論辯的這個過程，未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院、憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的討論，為什麼？因為這個法從現在個人的層次，未來如果對於當事人的傷害是確定的話，當事人也不排除會一路走到憲法解釋的層級。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，我們都尊重。"],["陳委員以信：所以我現在要告訴你，中選會身為主管機關，你有可能就是這樣一個可以說是扼殺參政權的劊子手……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個責任我們負擔不起，我們依法執行……"],["陳委員以信：你就是執行人啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們依法執行，不是我們來扼殺他。"],["陳委員以信：你依法執行，但是就會扼殺了這個參政權，我現在要讓你知道，我現在要留下這個紀錄，讓你知道未來一旦進入憲法訴訟的時候，必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權，這才是我們最主要的目的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們尊重當事人的權利主張，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝主委、謝謝陳以信委員。接下來請黃世杰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra 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舉無效訴訟對不對"},{"start":397.474,"end":413.547,"text":"有選舉無瑕事兆對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是利己而重大而且不可毀損的回復的親愛而你你們相對人是有救濟權的"},{"start":414.895,"end":431.389,"text":"你人有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重奏因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起"},{"start":439.235,"end":462.225,"text":"我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛"},{"start":463.072,"end":485.899,"text":"我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是 如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了"},{"start":486.859,"end":514.242,"text":"你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會的委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的"},{"start":515.083,"end":541.868,"text":"你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記"},{"start":542.748,"end":568.708,"text":"他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快"},{"start":569.268,"end":585.576,"text":"這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候是立法院通過的法律我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參政權為什麼"},{"start":587.287,"end":604.29,"text":"你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條"},{"start":605.251,"end":630.082,"text":"最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選"},{"start":630.862,"end":659.862,"text":"如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量"},{"start":661.387,"end":688.555,"text":"這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天是有論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序"},{"start":689.316,"end":701.89,"text":"政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起我們依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了"},{"start":710.439,"end":728.162,"text":"二殺的參政權我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的我們尊重當事人的權利主張好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"148966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720290eeda929a2a5e6e394fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a03227c441aaa3034334b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"11:07:48 - 11:19:23","影片長度":"00:11:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":695,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:19:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:07:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（11時7分）主席，我們請李主委。"],["主席：李主委，請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。主委，明年1月13日要選舉了，剩33天，你們在12月8日有開一個記者會，說外來介入選舉或賭盤的問題，是不是在很多群組裡也有很多單位叫人去煽動大家，所以你們開記者會說大家可以去找找看這個消息是真的還是假的。主委，像是阿公、阿嬤都是聽收音機，也沒有在用手機，當這些消息傳出來，街頭巷尾一個傳一個，你認為這要如何去宣導比較好？"],["李主任委員進勇：有關錯假訊息的防制，也是我們今年選務非常重要的一點，而錯假訊息的防制，當然我們在第一時間掌握了訊息來源之後……"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！主委，本席要請教你的是，你們在12月8日的記者會，你說得很清楚……"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有記者會，可能是我們有關澄清的新聞稿。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！你們的新聞稿就是教大家怎麼去瞭解這個訊息是真的還是假的。我現在是要請教你，你要怎麼用這個機會來宣導？來，這樣你要怎麼說？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個當然是民眾的識讀能力應該要提升，但是這可能不是短時間內能夠做到的，訊息……"],["王委員美惠：短時間沒辦法做到，剩33天就要選舉了耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：有關訊息的真假，其實有一些事實查核機構所提供的資料可以作為參考。"],["王委員美惠：主委，因為本席看到你們發這個新聞稿，我覺得他們這就是在傷害臺灣的民主、選舉，所以隨便發假消息，現在本席就是要跟你們說，你們只說這些沒有意義啦！你叫大家去瞭解……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們第一線一定要及時地說明，透過不同的媒體管道報導出去，讓大家知道。"],["王委員美惠：主委，只有剛開始第一天而已，再來就沒人知道了，收音機等等也可以宣導，有很多宣導方式啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們用多元的管道，也有宣傳的……"],["王委員美惠：因為本席認為好的人才要讓他留下來……"],["李主任委員進勇：也有請麟洋配……"],["王委員美惠：越接近選舉，消息會越恐怖，本來沒有的事情被一直說、說、說，就變成好像真的一樣。"],["李主任委員進勇：其實不只我們中選會在做這個錯假訊息的澄清，政府各部門都有在處理這個部分。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！因為你們12月8日有發這個新聞稿，我是要跟你們說……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也是職責所在，一定要做的。"],["王委員美惠：我是認為應該可以做得更好啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：好，我們會再加油。"],["王委員美惠：請內政部長及法務部。"],["主席：請林部長及黃次長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長好、次長好。本席要和你們探討的是，因為快選舉了，你們有感受到壓力，所以你們在11月30日發布，檢舉境外介入選舉或是賭盤，總統的部分是1,000萬，有這樣鼓勵百姓的……"],["林部長右昌：對，我們有這個獎勵獎金的措施。"],["王委員美惠：有嘛！"],["林部長右昌：有。"],["王委員美惠：本席為什麼要跟你提到這個，因為我們要多宣導。就是因為常常聽到哪裡有賭盤，或是哪裡有招待去大陸玩，說實在的，里長們都很辛苦啦！那是少之又少的里長才會被招待去大陸玩，其實里長說的也沒錯，那不是白白招待，他還要花1萬2,000塊。部長，所以我們的單位要去查核，為什麼里長會被招待，這是很重要的問題。本席要說的是，立委大家都知道里長的辛苦，因為經濟變化，事務費本來是4萬5,000元，去年調整為5萬，因為我們都知道里長很辛苦，只是有少數里長願意被招待去大陸做思想改造，像這樣的事情，部長，你認為要怎麼處理？因為真的有人接受招待哦！這種思想改造的問題很大，部長請講一下。"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，我們一定是經過相關的蒐報，有確定的一些事實，我們會做相關的處理。"],["王委員美惠：部長，你們的單位只要去旅行社查，就會知道有多少人出去、交錢交多少、住在哪裡。如果是去廟會，招待住在廟裡面，這個我們沒話講，但這是住好又吃好，針對這種思維改造，我們真的要有作為。"],["林部長右昌：是，當然。"],["王委員美惠：我認為司法要加強啦，不然只是聽到有人招待，但到目前為止他們都沒事啊，還是繼續在出團，你們講你們的，他們團還是照出。部長，這個問題要注意一下。"],["林部長右昌：當然。"],["王委員美惠：接下來，部長，你也知道我來自嘉義市，而你之前是基隆的父母官。嘉義最特別的就是有一個阿里山，阿里山腳下就是本席所住的地方嘉義市，我們的木都嘉義市有很多木造的房子，約六千多棟，長久以來都無法拿到使用執照。本席要跟你探討的是，在嘉義市一個文創園區裡面，到現在有很多棟歷史建物，其中也有很多你們內政應該要去修法的地方，不然說實在的，如果自己住的只有1樓平房沒差；但因為嘉義市面臨這麼多都是整棟的，未來要做生意也好、年輕人回去要奮鬥事業的也好，未來這要怎麼協助他們？因此你們營建署這方面要與嘉義市政府多聯繫一下。部長，你覺得嘉義市這件事情要如何幫忙協助？來，部長來！"],["林部長右昌：委員你剛剛說的，它是歷史建物還是一般的木造房子，這個不太一樣。"],["王委員美惠：我講給你聽，對，部長，我現在就是跟你說，歷史建物有歷史建物的法條嘛。"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["王委員美惠：而一般住家到目前為止，就是沒有辦法去突破，像我們嘉義市文創園區，一個這麼大的文創園區已經很多年、很多年了，到現在還沒辦法拿到使用執照！"],["林部長右昌：委員，你說文化園區，它既然是在一個園區裡面，應該有相關的計畫才對，而你剛剛說沒辦法取得使用執照是……"],["王委員美惠：這是私人的房子，私人房子未來有關消防的部分，它就沒有使用執照，所以它也不知道要怎麼處理消防。"],["林部長右昌：如果是私人自己使用是沒有這個問題，它要是……"],["王委員美惠：它從過去到現在都沒有申請建物的，就是人家說的違章建築。"],["林部長右昌：但違章建築它是不是有保存的價值，這可能要……"],["王委員美惠：部長，非常有價值！"],["林部長右昌：非常有價值？"],["王委員美惠：所以我希望部長跟營建署、嘉義市政府，這不是要申請你們的費用，只是要怎麼樣協助地方的問題。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員你剛剛說到文化園區，在個案的部分，是不是容會後我請國土管理署跟你討論、研究一下。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我認為我們不是只討論文創園區裡面，對我們這六千多棟的木造房屋也要關心，所以本席希望可以早日讓嘉義市這些木造的有一個保障，能夠多協助！"],["林部長右昌：是，我們再跟委員討論一下，因為木造也有很多不同的類型……"],["王委員美惠：對！"],["林部長右昌：我們再研究看看是不是有辦法來處理。"],["王委員美惠：因為我們以前都是建造鋼筋的，鋼筋的法律就是不同嘛，我們現在是要顧這些木造的，看看要怎麼保存？"],["林部長右昌：我們來研究一下。"],["王委員美惠：以上，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，現在叫做國土管理署，不是營建署。","繼續，陳以信委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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像你這樣要怎麼說第一個當然是我們民眾的這個嗜讀的能力應該要提升啦齁但是這可能不是第一期間內有辦法做到的這個訊息第一期間沒辦法做到做到33天要甩機了但是這個訊息的真假其實還是有一些事實查核的機構他們所提供的這個資料都可以作為參考的"},{"start":145.345,"end":152.829,"text":"因為主委是因為本席看到你們有發展出來的時候我覺得就是傷害台灣的民主、選舉、歐美共現在本席就是要跟你說跟你們說這個"},{"start":163.914,"end":167.257,"text":"這件事沒意義啦你叫那些人去了解我第一時間一定要說明即時的這個說明那透過不同的媒體的管道要把它說出去讓大家知道主委大那天而已啦再來都沒人知道啦"},{"start":184.393,"end":192.175,"text":"我們也可以收銀機也可以說什麼都可以很多選擇的方法多元的管道多元的管道因為我就是覺得說要有好的領袖要讓人留下因為留下的時候這個消息會越來越恐怖如果沒有"},{"start":205.25,"end":209.419,"text":"一直說 說 說 阿伯有贏了其實也不只是我們選委會在做這個挫甲訊息的澄清政府還有部門都有在處理這件事"},{"start":217.16,"end":230.666,"text":"對啦,我覺得就是說因為他們有12個設備,你們做這個動作,我是要...我們也是職責所在,一定要做的。對啦,我覺得應該可以再做就好了。好,我再介紹,我再介紹。來,請補充法務部,來。林部長、黃次長。"},{"start":241.93,"end":248.075,"text":"來 部長 市長在這裏 大家好我們想跟你談到的就是說應該是最近的選舉 你們有覺得有壓力嗎在一月三十 我們有發佈一個說因為你們如果請我介入選舉的位"},{"start":267.178,"end":271.986,"text":"還是多半的問題選舉的時候總統一千萬有這個問題嘛有這個高的背勢"},{"start":278.292,"end":284.72,"text":"對,我們有這個獎勵的一個獎金的措施有啦齁,因為本席是怎麼會跟你說這些呢?因為我們要多宣導,因為跟他有聽說,跟他再加多半,跟他再交代要去台六七十,跟他給大家說,跟他說實在的啦"},{"start":297.316,"end":311.019,"text":"每個里長都很辛苦的啦,那是少之又少的里長才會向交代去出頭啦,說實在里長他講的也不對,我不是白白交代捏,我還要開辦理考慮捏,所以部長那個我們的單位要去找好,因為"},{"start":320.701,"end":325.744,"text":"事由：立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":344.935,"end":349.798,"text":"這屆任期本來4萬5,調整至5萬,因為我們知道立法院大家都辛苦嘛,只是說辛苦的時候有10萬的願意交代要去做"},{"start":363.425,"end":377.668,"text":"思想的問題裏面像這樣補充你認為要怎麼做?因為真的有人交代去喔來補充你講一下這種思想改造這是非常問題很大我們一定是經過相關的一個搜報他有確定的一些事實我們會做相關的一個處理"},{"start":392.708,"end":397.35,"text":"因為部長您的單位說實在最近有多少出去嘛跟您查嘛,您能誰知道有多少嘛出入有多少人嘛,一到一到多少嘛,住在什麼嘛您如果說啊,我們又廟火,大家交代去住廟的地方,這我們沒話說這期住好又吃好,這思維改造真的我們要有作為"},{"start":422.163,"end":440.033,"text":"因為我覺得要加強啦,不敢聽到說還有人交代、還有人交代還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交代、還有人交"},{"start":447.276,"end":467.744,"text":"在這裏你也知道我來自嘉義市嘛你也是北部縣嘛一家人因為嘉義最特別的就是有一個阿里山嘉義阿里山的橋下就是本省首都的地方就是嘉義市現在很多我們的目睹嘉義市有不怕的會出"},{"start":472.568,"end":480.271,"text":"很大的六千多棟在這裏長久以來都沒有發動起到使用這招本事要跟你探討的就是在嘉義市一個文創園區裏面也有很大棟的到現在立法院的建物裏面也有很多應給你們內政的"},{"start":497.737,"end":507.579,"text":"要去修化一下,不說實在,你若自己長大,加上一年後賺到的沒差,那因為家庭錢沒領的,這些都整棟的,未來要做生意也好,年輕人回去要發表事業也好,未來這要怎樣去讓他們協助,因為我們這個營建事業,"},{"start":521.522,"end":532.133,"text":"要多聯繫,跟這裡的市政府要多聯繫一下,那部長你覺得自己在這件事你要如何,有覺得要怎樣去幫助嗎?來,部長來"},{"start":539.963,"end":550.473,"text":"委員你剛才說的那個記的是歷史建物還是一般的木造的房子這個不太一樣我現在就是要說有歷史建物的法條"},{"start":559.221,"end":574.275,"text":"這裏我們站著的、會站著的現在到不成為之,就是無法去突破像我們文創園區、嘉義市,一個這麼大的所在的文創園區,已經很多年、很多年,到現在還無法站著使用這間"},{"start":581.215,"end":600.142,"text":"文化園區一個人在一個園區裡面應該有相關的價位才對你剛才說的沒辦法輸到修容這是樹林的樹他在樹林的樹的時候就是說未來消防的他如果沒有修容這條樹他也不知道要怎麼消防他如果到處都是樹林去修容是沒有這個問題他是以前到現在都沒有"},{"start":609.125,"end":609.868,"text":"申請檢抹的就是人家在說的違章建築的"},{"start":615.08,"end":627.667,"text":"但違章建築亦是否有保存的這個階段這可能要來...喔!沒錯!很有階段的!喔!很有階段!對!所以說我問問部長及營建署及嘉義市市政府喔!這沒有形成我們的費用,這是要怎樣如果對應這個問題,到底要怎麼做?"},{"start":641.656,"end":652.669,"text":"委員是不是你剛才說到這個文化園區在個案的部分是不是在農會後我請國土管理署我認為我們不是說文創園區裡面"},{"start":657.395,"end":673.249,"text":"我們這個六千多棟的木造的所在我們也要去關心所以說本身我們也能夠將日期這個木造的有一個保障我們要跟委員來討論一下因為木造也有很多不同的類型我們要研究看看是不是有辦法來處理"},{"start":682.757,"end":686.442,"text":"致敬的、致敬的法律就是無綱我們現在是國家的募集要如何保存我們來研究一下以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029b7fcdcf16758d48a94fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322db95e054bd3dacb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:01:27 - 11:07:38","影片長度":"00:06:11","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":371,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:07:38+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:01:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":565,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（11時1分）我先請內政部林部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我們今天的題目就是警察不在籍投票，我想請問一下，其實現在我們雖然沒有不在籍投票，但我們的工作人員都有移轉投票的制度了，對不對？如果我是警察或是選務人員，今天我要去擔任選務人員的話，就是可以在工作地點投票了，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：直轄市或者縣市……"],["張委員宏陸：都可以了嘛？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們的警察應該也都是有這樣了嘛？"],["林部長右昌：我們會儘可能的……當天因為選舉有選務的勤務，不過這個已經行之多年，我們在選前都會請各警察機關去排定輪休，或者是讓內勤同仁做相關的支援，另外也希望讓員警能夠一方面完成勤務，二方面也可以輪流去投票。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！現在其實就有這個制度了，對不對？那只是……"],["林部長右昌：一直以來……"],["張委員宏陸：都有嘛！"],["林部長右昌：其實因為民主選舉已經有一段滿長的時間，現在都越來越順暢，我們會儘可能讓同仁能夠回去投票。"],["張委員宏陸：現在其實制度是有了，只是因為勤務、因為輪休的問題，可能沒有辦法百分之百而已，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得其實警察的權利，他有他的投票權，當然我們要保障，其實如果把它做得再精進一點，能夠讓比例越高，我覺得是會比較好，對不對？是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好，其實我們就是朝這個方向去努力，我覺得尤其是儘量讓基層員警可以有比較多的機會去投票，我們應該朝這個方向來努力。好，謝謝，謝謝林部長。","我來請中選會李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我們選務人員的修正，公務人員比例從二分之一調為三分之一，今年選務人員的招募，明年投票有沒有比較順利？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝貴院修法的幫忙，自從公務人員的比例從二分之一調降為三分之一，今年的招募工作進行得比以往都要順利得多。"],["張委員宏陸：都沒有問題啦，全臺灣都沒有問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們原來規劃是10月30號以前要完全招募完畢，其實各地選委會都超前。"],["張委員宏陸：而且這次選務人員的工作費其實也有調高。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：應該也是增加了不少誘因。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，謝謝大家。"],["張委員宏陸：不過這邊有一個要跟主委說，我在基層聽到，我們投開票所其實有分大小，我舉例就好，新北石碇的豐田里投票人數才八十幾個人，我再舉一個我們板橋有一個投開票所─社後，就五千多人，大家都想要去比較小的，工作輕鬆，同樣的一天，這樣子嘛！工作輕鬆嘛！未來投開票所工作費用其實對特別的，比如說五、六千人以上的這種，是不是也有特別的獎勵？不一定是錢，可能記功等什麼有沒有往這個方向來思考？這樣子才不會說……任務繁重的、人越多的，其實我認為更需要有經驗的人，我們如何讓更有經驗的人願意去人口數比較多的地方做選務人員？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的關心，其實我們要感謝全國所有的選務工作人員，大家都是來奉獻、服務的，所以不大計較。當然勞逸的問題會因為投開票所規模大小而有所不同，至於會不會根據勞逸不同的情況來做工作費的調整，工作費支給辦法最近行政院剛剛支持修正通過，我們會在試辦一段時間後再來進行檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：好。我的意思不是只有增加工作費，公務人員有敘獎什麼的，他的勞務……"],["李主任委員進勇：那這個沒有問題。"],["張委員宏陸：我說的是這個，我剛也講不是……"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：如果單純去調高那個部分，可能也不一定馬上可以做得到。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，勞逸的問題有不同的獎懲標準，我們想應該是要這樣做。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以我的意思是第一步，從敘獎等等這方面，可以從制度上來做，而且這不用修任何的法令啊！對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，我們會這樣來辦理。"],["張委員宏陸：可以嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：可以。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。主委請回座。","接下來請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅美玲","莊瑞雄","江啟臣","李德維","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳椒華","林文瑞","陳琬惠","邱臣遠","廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住\n民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦\n理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢；二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原\n住民身分法修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五\n條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第\n九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案、(六)繼\n續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」\n案、( 七) 審查委員蔡適應等25 人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案；三、原住民族工\n作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)審\n查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)審查\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案、(四)審查\n委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員陳瑩等\n17 人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 六) 審查委員廖國棟等25 人擬具\n「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工\n作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案；四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人\n擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人\n擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名\n條例第九條條文修正草案」案、(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.41034375,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.607843750000001,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.459093750000001,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.830343750000004,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.994718750000004,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.36596875,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.56846875,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.086593750000006,"end":75.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.98534375,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.61346875000001,"end":91.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.92909375,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.32909375,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.44159375000001,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.55534375,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.49159375,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.94909375,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.43846875000001,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.82659375,"end":144.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.84346875000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.43409375,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.22221875,"end":170.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.88034375,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.07721875000001,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.12284375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.65409375000002,"end":183.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.12034375000002,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.62221875,"end":193.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.43534375000002,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.68721875,"end":202.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.04159375,"end":205.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.96096875,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.91846875000002,"end":213.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.00596875000002,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.50659375,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.37909375,"end":229.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.08221875,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.11596875,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.95096875000002,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.30534375000002,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.46221875000003,"end":273.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.19909375000003,"end":287.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.15471875000003,"end":305.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.41784375000003,"end":322.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.23784375,"end":336.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.50284375,"end":328.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.58721875000003,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.88221875000005,"end":331.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.36721875,"end":336.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.43409375000005,"end":337.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.15971875,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.42471875,"end":348.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.10721875,"end":361.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.52909375,"end":350.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.71721875000003,"end":361.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":362.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.10096875000005,"end":363.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.43409375000005,"end":363.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.50159375000004,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.41284375000004,"end":364.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.69971875000005,"end":366.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.79221875,"end":367.61909375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.638,"end":4.799,"text":"我先請內政部林部長請部長部長我們今天我們今天題目就是"},{"start":17.932,"end":40.182,"text":"警察不在即投票我想請問一下其實現在我們雖然沒有不在即投票但我們的工作人員都有移轉投票的制度了嘛對不對如果我警察或是我選務人員我在我今天我要去擔任選務人員的話我就是可以在我的工作地點投票了吧"},{"start":41.102,"end":48.176,"text":"對不對直轄市或者縣市都可以了嘛所以我們的警察應該也都是有這樣的嘛"},{"start":49.293,"end":75.098,"text":"我們會盡可能的因為當天因為選舉有選務的這個勤務不過這個已經行之多年我們在選前都會請各警察機關去排定輪休或者是讓我們的內勤的同仁這個來做這個相關的一個支援那另外也就是希望就是說讓員警能夠在一方面完成勤務那二方面也可以輪流去做投票"},{"start":76.958,"end":99.948,"text":"現在其實就有這個制度了啦 對不對一直以來 因為民主選舉已經有一段蠻長的時間現在都越來越順暢我們會盡可能的讓同仁能夠回去投票現在其實制度是有了啦只是說因為勤務因為輪休的問題可能沒有辦法百分之百而已啦 對不對我覺得其實"},{"start":103.65,"end":118.052,"text":"警察的權益他有他的投票權我覺得當然我們要保障我覺得就是說其實我們如果就是把它做到再精進一點能夠那個比例越高我覺得是會比較好啦 對不對"},{"start":121.734,"end":140.703,"text":"其實我們就是朝這個方向去努力就我覺得盡量尤其是讓基層的員警他可以比較有比較多的機會啦這個他能夠去投票我覺得我們朝這個方向應該來努力啦好謝謝林部長那我來請這個中選會那個李主委"},{"start":153.915,"end":169.609,"text":"主委我們選務人員的修正公務人員比例從二分之一調為三分之一在今年這樣子在今年的選務人員的招募在明年投票我們有沒有比較順利"},{"start":171.818,"end":183.489,"text":"謝謝貴院的修法的幫忙自從這個公務人員的比例從二分之一調降為三分之一那今年的這個招募的工作是進行的比以往都要順利的多"},{"start":184.218,"end":205.034,"text":"都沒有問題在我們原來規劃是10月30號以前要完全招募完畢其實各地選委會都超前而且我們這一次的這個選務人員的工作費其實也有調高我們應該也是增加了不少誘因謝謝大家"},{"start":207.14,"end":222.429,"text":"不過這邊有一個就是要跟主委就是說我在基層上我聽到的就是說我們投開票所其實有分大小有的啦我舉例就好了"},{"start":223.61,"end":248.569,"text":"我們新北時定的豐田里才80幾個人投票人數我們我再舉一個我們板橋有一個投開票所、社後就5000多人大家都想要去比較小的工作輕鬆同樣的一天這樣子工作輕鬆有沒有我們未來"},{"start":250.53,"end":272.618,"text":"這一個我們這個投開票所這個工作的費用其實會特別的比如說到五、六千人以上的這一種我們是不是要有特別的獎勵不一定是錢可能你的技工你的什麼這個我們有沒有這個方向來思考這樣子才不會說很"},{"start":274.298,"end":286.438,"text":"任務繁重的人越多的其實我認為是更需要有經驗的人去嘛那我們如何讓有更有經驗的人願意去人口數比較多的地方來做這個選務人員"},{"start":288.927,"end":304.543,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,其實我們要感謝所有全國的選務工作人員,大家都是要來奉獻、服務,所以沒什麼藉口就對了當然這個勞役的問題會因為投開票所規模的大小而有所不同"},{"start":305.664,"end":321.991,"text":"至於會不會根據這個勞役不同的情況來做工作費的調整我想我們的這個工作資給工作費的資給這個辦法最近剛剛行政院支持修正通過了我們會在事辦一段時間之後再來進行檢討"},{"start":324.412,"end":346.851,"text":"我的意思不是只有增加工作費啦是我們公務人員有續獎有什麼的啊那他的勞務那這個沒有問題我說的是那個我剛才講不是不是你如果單純是調高那個可能也不一定馬上可以做得到不易的問題而有不同的獎程的標準這是我們想應該是要這樣子做"},{"start":349.173,"end":367.128,"text":"要這樣子做對嘛所以我意思說從我們第一步我們的這一個這個續假這個等等的這方面我們可以從這個制度上來做而且這個不用修任何法律是的是的對不對我們會這樣子來辦理可以啦可以好那謝謝主委好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"148964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029835cceac2c888d6894fc233f19f174e7c986728e607a0322ef5a74ead98971cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:51:26 - 11:01:16","影片長度":"00:09:50","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":590,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:01:16+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:51:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時51分）請中選會主委。"],["主席：李主委，請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委早。今天總統、副總統的號次已經抽定了。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：之前沸沸揚揚討論總統、副總統候選人資格審定的時候，請教你們那時候說三組候選人都審定合格嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問三組候選人的審定，你們是進行形式上的審查還是實質上的審查？"],["李主任委員進勇：是實質的審查。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，實質上的審查。當初在討論有關什麼回復國籍、雙重國籍，或是回復或歸化這部分的時候，你們都有相關的資料吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有向內政部函查，內政部也非常清楚地告訴我們，三組候選人、六個候選人裡面沒有任何一個有回復國籍或是歸化國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們是按照內政部的公文嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然！因為它是主管機關。"],["陳委員玉珍：它有沒有檢附相關的事證？沒有嘛？就只有公文嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：它告訴我們結果。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們是按照內政部的公文告訴大眾說都符合資格，是內政部告訴你們符合……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個是非常明顯而且確定的。"],["陳委員玉珍：是內政部說的，那我們請內政部。所以有沒有人自始就有中華民國國籍或者原來是美國籍後來是歸化、回復？這部分內政部有做實質的審查嗎？"],["林部長右昌：就內政部的部分，我們有進行相關的查證。"],["陳委員玉珍：有實質查證就對了？"],["林部長右昌：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：包括他的過去，是不是？"],["林部長右昌：對，我們會查他的戶籍資料。"],["陳委員玉珍：戶籍啦！那國籍的部分呢？"],["林部長右昌：也一樣，我們會查國籍……"],["陳委員玉珍：都有做詳查喔？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們手上有相關的資料嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：很詳細的資料，這部分是不是應該公開提示給社會大眾知道？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告一下，第一個，不管是蕭女士的父親或是他個人，從來都沒有喪失國籍的資料，所以他自始至終就是中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：對嘛！那應該會有相關的資料，每個人不管從戶政或是國籍都有相關的事證嘛……"],["林部長右昌：他就是有國籍啊！他並沒有任何……"],["陳委員玉珍：你說他自始至終沒有喪失……"],["林部長右昌：他並沒有任何喪失或者回復的資料，他沒有申請，當然就沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你至少會有他的相關資料，公告給大眾知道嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員所謂的相關資料指的是？"],["陳委員玉珍：比如我們看到蕭美琴副總統候選人當初自己在媒體上說他只有美國籍啊！他說過他自己只有美國籍啊！"],["林部長右昌：不過那個是……"],["陳委員玉珍：是他自己說的喔！這不是我們說的。"],["林部長右昌：我們依法、我們依法，但是他……"],["陳委員玉珍：但他自己這樣說，到底他原來的中華民國國籍是因為他放棄美國籍以後，就回復中華民國國籍呢？還是什麼情形？我想……"],["林部長右昌：沒有，委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們既然查證過了，你們是怎樣認定的？你們應該把這個過程公諸給大眾知道，以減少社會的對立，讓大家都清楚。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，這非常簡單，因為他從來沒有喪失，所以他當然也沒有回復……"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思是他面對媒體……"],["林部長右昌：所以他並沒有喪失，也沒有回復的資料。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你的意思是他面對媒體訪問時是說謊的？"],["林部長右昌：不是，我想他有可能……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是？所以他誤會就對了？"],["林部長右昌：對，他有可能是誤會。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你說我們這個副總候選人的認知能力有問題？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，不能這樣子講。"],["陳委員玉珍：對於自己的國籍都沒辦法認知清楚。"],["林部長右昌：我想並不能這樣子……"],["陳委員玉珍：在年輕的時候都沒辦法認知自己是美國籍還是中華民國籍，或是有雙重國籍……"],["林部長右昌：我想非常清楚，只要是中華民國的國籍，一出生的時候他就具有中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：他認為他自己只有美國籍，你們卻幫他認定他有中華民國國籍，那我現在說他的認知錯誤，你就說不是……"],["林部長右昌：委員，我們依法，依法他就是有中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道你們依法，我們這樣爭辯的話，事實上會陷入各說各話，所以我希望你們把查到的事證、你們怎麼認定的，或是你們根本沒有做任何查證……"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛已經講得很清楚了……"],["陳委員玉珍：反正你們就認為他爸爸原來就中華民國……"],["林部長右昌：不是、不是。"],["陳委員玉珍：他爸爸原來就是中華民國國籍，也有相關事證吧？你把它公告出來啊！"],["林部長右昌：沒有，委員，他從來沒有申請喪失……"],["陳委員玉珍：我請問你，我說我有中華民國國籍或者我說我沒有中華民國國籍，你們來認定的時候說我本來就有，就憑你說有就有嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不是，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：一定要有相關事證嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員你這樣子在邏輯上面可能有一些問題……"],["陳委員玉珍：我邏輯上沒錯！我想請問你，蕭美琴自己說自己只有美國籍，你們卻說他從來就有中華民國國籍，所以我說那表示他當初在受訪的時候說錯，有可能他說錯了，我們也不要說他說謊，他可能說錯嘛！對不對？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：有可能是說錯啦！對不對？"],["林部長右昌：那部分我們是就行政機關，我們國籍法……"],["陳委員玉珍：那不然怎樣？他是說錯還是認知錯誤？"],["林部長右昌：我們國籍法的相關規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：他要嘛就是說謊，要嘛他自己認知錯誤，覺得自己只有美國籍嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員，我覺得這樣子繞圈圈……"],["陳委員玉珍：一個要當我們副總統的人對自己的國籍，這麼年輕的時候都會認知錯誤，這個……所以我說我們這樣繼續爭辯，實際上意義小，也會增加衝突，現在都已經抽籤了嘛！"],["林部長右昌：委員，我覺得沒有什麼衝突，因為這非常清楚……"],["陳委員玉珍：我說你們是不是把這些東西弄清楚，公諸大眾，他父親原來就有中華民國國籍，我舉例，比如說他父親一定有出國嘛！他後來有去美國嘛！一定有中華民國護照什麼這類的東西，他什麼時候取得，時間點寫出來給社會大眾知道，以釋眾疑嘛！讓社會減少衝突啦！"],["林部長右昌：委員，其實這樣子繞圈圈沒有意義。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，你們不提供出來，反正今天就是內政部說了算啦！反正也不用提供……"],["林部長右昌：不是，我們依國籍法相關規定去進行查證，查證的結果，他就是有中華民國國籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：查證就沒有什麼資料可以給大家看的啊！"],["林部長右昌：因為他從來沒有喪失，他也沒有申請喪失，他也沒有回復的必要。"],["陳委員玉珍：他有取得中華民國國籍嗎？"],["林部長右昌：他當然有啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：他什麼時候取得？為什麼自己認為沒有呢？他自己說沒有，我也不知道為什麼……"],["林部長右昌：那個時候我不曉得。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他年輕的時候，心目中只有美國這個國家？"],["林部長右昌：我想委員這樣子說……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，他自己認為他只有美國籍啊！這是他說的，不是我說的。"],["林部長右昌：委員你個人的意見，尊重！"],["陳委員玉珍：我說我們不用爭執，我說你把查的東西……你不公告也就算了，反正這個就會變成一個……"],["林部長右昌：這個沒有什麼公不公告的問題，我們在上個禮拜的新聞稿裡面已經講得非常清楚。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！都是用新聞稿嘛！這就像蔡總統說他有論文什麼都是用新聞稿，東西公布出來嘛！以釋眾疑就好了，沒關係哦！我問下一題，對不起！","來，因為時間有限，你們也不公告，反正就憑一紙公文，以後做什麼事情只要你們的公文就可以了。"],["林部長右昌：委員，這不能這樣子講，我們依國籍法，我們依法行政，他沒有任何回復……"],["陳委員玉珍：你把時間點嘛！時間點……"],["林部長右昌：他沒有申請喪失，他就是中華民國籍啊！這麼簡單，就是這樣子啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我接受的說法就是，蕭美琴以前在接受媒體訪問的時候，他要嘛認知錯誤，要嘛他說謊，就這二個嘛！還是媒體報導錯誤？他要澄清啊！"],["林部長右昌：尊重委員你個人的意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：尊重我的說法，對啦？"],["林部長右昌：尊重你個人的意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：只有二個可能啦！二個可能之一啦！","好，我想請問我們上個月修總統副總統選舉罷免法，這個一起修的，記得嗎？在我們委員會有修這個法，對吧！我想請問部長，總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面有沒有規定二個政黨可以聯合推薦總統副總統？來，誰會回答？就是選舉罷免法第二十二條第一項有沒有規定二個以上政黨可以聯合推薦？答案在這裡，哪一位回答呢？"],["簡簡任視察鈺珒：報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：是哪一個單位？還是中選會上來回答？當然這個法令是內政部管的，還是中選會要幫忙回答？這是哪一位？"],["簡簡任視察鈺珒：報告委員，依照總統副總統選舉罷免法規定，是得有二個以上政黨共同推薦。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以嘛？"],["簡簡任視察鈺珒：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以嘛！依法是二個政黨可以聯合，也可以共同推薦，對不對？好，請問朱立倫、馬英九、侯友宜、柯文哲那時候討論要聯合推薦總統副總統，這個有什麼問題？為什麼會被告搓圓仔湯？請問以後二個政黨如何聯合推薦？二個政黨在討論到底怎麼樣聯合推薦，這個有什麼問題？"],["林部長右昌：這個就尊重提告人的主張跟訴求。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為應該沒有這樣的問題啦？"],["林部長右昌：提告的人去提……"],["陳委員玉珍：提告的人當然任何人都可以提告……"],["林部長右昌：對，任何人都可以提嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你認為呢？你對於這個法令的解釋呢？你覺得可不可以聯合推薦？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我想我們不方便在這邊談論候選人，現在已經……"],["陳委員玉珍：我沒有叫你談論，我要討論這個法令─第二十二條第一項。"],["林部長右昌：現在已經進入提名登記，今天也已經抽籤了。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，以後有可能還是會……我們也不是針對這個案子，我們只是說以後也有可能會發生嘛！以後政黨可不可以聯合推薦嘛？"],["林部長右昌：這個我們可能要看他過程裡面的……"],["陳委員玉珍：可不可以一起討論聯合推薦這件事情？"],["林部長右昌：但是他不只是討論所謂聯合推薦，他也許還有其他談論的事情嘛！所以這要看具體的事證跟提告人的訴求。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，所以你覺得被告發這件事情，如果就你的法律判斷，覺得告發這個事證會成立嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我不是法官，我沒有辦法去判斷這個。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有辦法，反正任何人都有提告權利，我也接受啦！不過濫用司法資源或只是為了創造一些……這次當然是過去了，以後還是有可能發生嘛！我們既然總統副總統選舉罷免法裡面有這一條可以政黨聯合推薦，當然各個主要政黨的主要領袖人物坐在一起討論如何聯合推薦，也不應該是一件犯法的事情嘛！對吧？"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛講過了……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是針對這個案子，我說以後還有可能會發生。"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛講過，當然他依二個政黨合作的程序去進行，這在法裡面是允許的……"],["陳委員玉珍：是可以允許的，好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：但他有沒有其他的事情就不曉得，所以要尊重提告人提告的內容。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-15-13","speakers":["游毓蘭","賴品妤","陳玉珍","張宏陸","王美惠","陳以信","黃世杰","鄭天財Sra 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也會增加衝突那現在會有錢錢了嘛我說是不是你們把這些東西弄清楚公諸大眾嘛他父親也要去有中華民國國籍 比如說我舉例 比如他父親一定有出國嘛 他後來有去美國嘛一定有中華民國護照啊 什麼這類的東西啊他什麼時候取得什麼時間點寫出來給社會大眾知道"},{"start":323.021,"end":348.662,"text":"以恃眾疑﹑這個社會檢討這個寵物﹑其實這樣子繞圈圈沒有意義今天就是內政部說了算反正也不是提供我們依國籍法相關的規定去進行查證查證的結果他就是有中華民國因為他從來沒有上司他也沒有申請上司他有取得中華民國國籍嗎他當然有啊他有什麼時候取得為什麼自己認為沒有呢"},{"start":349.93,"end":350.771,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":367.81,"end":393.952,"text":"有什麼公布公告的問題我們在上個禮拜的新聞稿裡面已經講了非常多都是用新聞稿嘛這就像蔡總統說他有有那個什麼論文什麼都是用新聞稿東西公布出來嘛以示眾議就好了沒關係喔我問下一題對不起喔來因為時間有限喔那個來你們也不公告就反而憑一紙公文以後做什麼事情只要你們的公文就可以了委員這個不能這樣子講我們依國行法我們依法行政他沒有任何回覆"},{"start":395.133,"end":423.322,"text":"時間點嗎?他沒有申請上司他就是中華民國籍啊這麼簡單就是這樣子啊那我接受你的說法就是說蕭美琴在以前在接受媒體訪問的時候她要麼認知錯誤要麼她說謊嘛就兩個嘛還是她還是媒體報道錯誤就尊重委員你個人的意見尊重你個人的意見只有兩個可能啦兩個可能之一啦好來我想請問喔這個我們的我們上次不是上次修這個總統副總統選舉罷免法吧這個一起修的嘛記得吧在我們這裡委員會有修這個法"},{"start":424.769,"end":432.576,"text":"我想請問這個總統副總統選舉發言法有沒有規定裡面有沒有規定有兩個政黨可以聯合推薦總統副總統誰會回答就是選舉發言法第22條第1項有沒有規定可以聯合推薦兩個以上的政黨哪一位回答"},{"start":449.179,"end":471.648,"text":"這是哪一個單位?還是中選會要這樣回答?當然這個法令是內政部管的還是中選會要幫忙回答?報告委員,依照總統選舉、副總統選舉罷免法規定是得有兩個以上政黨共同推薦可以嗎?可以嗎?依法是兩個政黨可以聯合、也可以共同推薦嘛對不對?好,那請問這個朱立倫、馬英格、侯偉克、問責那時候討論要聯合推薦總統、副總統這個有什麼問題?"},{"start":478.173,"end":480.843,"text":"為什麼會被告什麼縮延載趟"},{"start":483.956,"end":505.831,"text":"那請問以後兩個政黨如何聯合推薦?兩個政黨在討論說到底怎麼樣聯合推薦?這個有什麼問題?這個就尊重提告的人他的一個主張跟訴求所以說你認為應該沒有這樣的問題了齁?那個提告的人提告的人他當然任何人都可以提告任何人都可以提嘛你認為呢?你對這個法律的解釋呢?你覺得可不可以聯合推薦?我想我們不方便在這邊談論這個候選人他現在已經我現在要討論這個法律現在已經"},{"start":510.314,"end":537.929,"text":"現在已經進入到那個沒有以後還是有可能今天已經抽籤了我們也不是針對這個案子我們只是說以後有可能會發生嗎這個我們可能要看他的這個我們可能要看他過程裡面看他過程裡面的可不可以在一起討論說聯合推薦這件事情嗎但是他不只是討論這個所謂聯合推薦他也許還有其他的這些談論的事情嘛所以這要看他的具體的事證跟提告人他的訴求OK"},{"start":539.33,"end":567.605,"text":"所以說你覺得這個被告發這件事情你如果就你的這個法律判斷你覺得這個告發這個施政會成立嗎沒有我不是法官我沒有辦法你不要吧反正你任何人都有提告權我也接受不過濫用司法資源或只是為了創造一些這當然是這一次當然是過去以後還是有可能發生我們既然總統副總統選舉辦法一定有這一條可以政黨聯合推薦當然各個主要政黨的主要的領袖人物坐在一起討論如何聯合推薦也不應該是一件犯法的事情對吧"},{"start":573.087,"end":585.238,"text":"我剛剛講過當然他依兩個政黨合作的一個程序去進行在法裡面是允許的但他有沒有其他的事情就不曉得所以要尊重提告人提告的那個內容"}]}},{"id":"15347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15347","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea12c81503aa54e7224bbec9c895510aaa46d53a332764a535aa2f99442aa469485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-11T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員、內政部部長、警政署署長、消防署署長、海巡署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員、國防部、法務部就「第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於選舉期間之行政中立」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請司法院列席備詢。二、原住民身分法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民身分法修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「原住民身分法第五條、第七條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員劉櫂豪等18人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員郭國文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「原住民身分法第二條條文修正草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「原住民身分法第四條及第八條之一條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員蔡適應等25人擬具「原住民身分法第四條、第七條及第八條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員陳明文等16人擬具「原住民身分法第九條條文修正草案」案。三、原住民族工作權保障法：(一)審查行政院函請審議「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等18人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第十一條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳瑩等17人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法第四條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查委員廖國棟等25人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)審查委員孔文吉等22人擬具「原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案」案。四、姓名條例：(一)繼續審查委員鄭天財SraKacaw等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員伍麗華SaidhaiTahovecahe等20人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具「姓名條例第九條條文修正草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員廖國棟等16人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。【12月11日、14日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-11","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:30:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-10-8-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-11T15:44:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":22440,"委員發言時間":"09:30:00 - 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主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員13人以主法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1818.12,"end":1839.113,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議一事錄,時間112年12月7日星期四上午9時至下午2時17分,地點紅樓202會議室,出席委員游玉蘭委員等13人,列席委員高金素美委員等3人,列席官員、內政部部長林佑昌、海洋委員會政務副主任委員周梅烏等,"},{"start":1839.733,"end":1854.951,"text":"主席羅昭及委員美玲討論事項因《中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸交層法》審查委員莊岳雄等17人及委員蔡奕宇等16人分別理據《中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸交層法》第18條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1855.672,"end":1883.6,"text":"二槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例部分條文修正草案審查行政院行刑審議槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例部分條文修正草案繼續審查委員鄭天才等21人你具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第5條之2條文修正草案繼續審查時代力量黨團你具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第20條之1條文修正草案繼續審查委員張其祿等18人你具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第5條之1及第20條之1條文修正草案"},{"start":1885.061,"end":1899.375,"text":"繼續審查委員陳明文等18人及委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人分別擬具槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案審查委員蔡奕宇等19人擬具槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例第7條及第22條條文修正草案"},{"start":1901.116,"end":1919.669,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等16人擬具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例第4條條文修正草案審查委員王美惠等22人委員游玉蘭等16人及委員陳亭飛等16人分別擬具槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例部分條文修正草案討論事項和並詢答委員游玉蘭、莊瑞雄說明提案要旨"},{"start":1920.289,"end":1936.4,"text":"內政部部長林佑昌海洋委員會政務副主任委員周梅武報告委員由玉蘭等13人質詢由內政部部長林佑昌海洋委員會政務副主任委員周梅武及相關人員答覆說明登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢"},{"start":1937.36,"end":1951.745,"text":"尋答結束委員林文瑞所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內立以書面答覆並複製本會決議一中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸交層法等二案"},{"start":1953.171,"end":1975.433,"text":"一、第18條趙委員、莊瑞雄等17人提案通過二、審查通過文資及相關法之用與授權主席及議事人員整理三、B案審查完畢你據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推請羅召集委員美琳於院會討論時做補充說明二、槍炮彈藥、刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案等11案一、第4條增訂"},{"start":1977.154,"end":1995.841,"text":"第4條、增定第5條之3、第13條、增定第13條之1、第18條、第20條之1、增定第20條之3、第25條軍造行政院提案通過二、委員張其祿等18人提案第5條之1、委員陳柏惟、許志傑等18人提案修正第5條之2維持現行法條文不予修正"},{"start":1997.062,"end":2010.517,"text":"3、第5條之2除第1項第6款文字修正為持有人受判處有其徒刑以上之刑確定且未經宣告緩刑或經宣告緩刑被撤銷及第3項目標文字修正為但無行為能力忍者不得申請繼續持有"},{"start":2011.838,"end":2026.53,"text":"未成年人之繼承及使用最相關規定另由中央原住民族主管機關定之其餘均照行政院提案通過修正行政院提案立法說明第二點二及補充行政院提案立法說明第五點如下"},{"start":2027.27,"end":2052.225,"text":"二、考量緩刑制度細微促使惡性輕微之被告或偶發犯出犯改過自刑而設為鼓勵自刑員修正第一項第六款將與規定持有人受判處有其徒刑以上之刑確定者除有第六項情形外皆因撤銷或廢止其許可修正為持有人受判處有其徒刑以上之刑確定且未經宣告緩刑或經宣告緩刑被撤銷時不予撤銷或廢止其許可"},{"start":2052.885,"end":2067.583,"text":"五、為配合原住民之傳統文化與盜竊持有人死亡、團結解散、重新申請許可持有者或自製獵槍持有人死亡時第三項修正準與其未成年人即用其相關規定授權管理是以利用中央目的事業主管機關訂定之"},{"start":2069.405,"end":2087.565,"text":"4、委員陳明文等18人、委員陳柏惟、許智傑等18人提案修正第6條之一維持現行法條文不予修正5、委員陳明文等18人、委員蔡易宇等19人提案修正第7條維持現行法條文不予修正6、委員陳明文等18人提案修正第8條及第12條均維持現行法條文不予修正"},{"start":2088.326,"end":2111.243,"text":"其增訂第9條之一除第二項目段增列但原住民族基於傳統文化即以非營利自用獵捕野生動物者不在此縣等文字其餘均照行政院提案通過8補充行政院提案第13條之一立法說明第4點如下是基於對原住民族傳統文化之尊重原住民使用自製獵槍自製之彈丸與原住民之民族基於傳統文化範圍內阻缺違法"},{"start":2112.223,"end":2139.949,"text":"9、增訂第20條之二第一項及第二項劇中有關法環上限部分增列原等文字其餘均照行政院提案通過補充立法說明第4點如下4、經以對原住民族傳統文化之尊重原住民字之列腔實使用之主要組成凝結不適用本條規定10、委員蔡毅與等19人提案修正第22條維持現行法條文不予修正11、審查通過這條文條次引述條文之文字及相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":2140.909,"end":2161.653,"text":"審查完據擬據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推起羅昭及委員美領與院會討論時作補充說明三、審查中華民國涉及活動及涉及器材權益促進會未建議修正槍炮彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文請院文書一案決議本案不成為一案依立法院職權行使法第67條第二項規定送由程序委員會報請院會審查並通知請院人宣讀完畢"},{"start":2170.213,"end":2172.317,"text":"繼續進行報告事項和討論事項請宣讀報告事項"},{"start":2180.785,"end":2181.846,"text":"選舉期間之行政中立,進行專題報告並被質詢,並邀請司法院列席備詢。"},{"start":2207.001,"end":2233.89,"text":"討論事項一、原住民身份法審查行政院海巡審議原住民身份法修正草案案繼續審查委員鄭天才等16人擬具原住民身份法第5條、第7條及第9條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員劉兆豪等18人擬具原住民身份法第9條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員郭國文等16人委員張宏祿等20人分別擬具原住民身份法第2條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2234.87,"end":2254.603,"text":"繼續審查委員鄭天才等18任擬居原住民身份法第4條及第8條之一條文修正草案案審查委員蔡適應等25任擬居原住民身份法第4條、第7條及第8條條文修正草案案審查委員陳明文等16任擬居原住民身份法第9條條文修正草案案二、原住民工作權保障法"},{"start":2256.392,"end":2275.374,"text":"審查行政院海巡審議原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案審查委員鄭天才等17人、委員武麗華等18人分別擬據原住民族工作權保障法修正草案審查委員陳穎等16人擬據原住民族工作權保障法第11條條文修正草案"},{"start":2275.994,"end":2288.88,"text":"審查委員陳寅等17人凝聚原住民族工作權保障法第4條條文修正草案案審查委員廖國棟等25人、委員孔文吉等22人分別凝聚原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":2291.702,"end":2311.799,"text":"繼續審查委員鄭天才等16任擬具姓名條例部分條文修正草案案繼續審查委員吳立華等20任擬具姓名條例第二條及第4條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員羅美玲等18任擬具姓名條例第9條條文修正草案案繼續審查委員廖國棟等16任擬具姓名條例部分條文修正草案案宣讀完畢首先介紹在場委員及列席官員賴平瑜委員"},{"start":2322.569,"end":2342.579,"text":"內政部林宥昌部長、戶政司陳子和代理司長、民政司檢譽軍檢任視察、合作及人民團體司陳俊廷專門委員"},{"start":2344.605,"end":2373.315,"text":"人事處林靜雯副處長、警政署黃明昭署長、刑事局周佑偉局長、偵查科礦沁泰科長、保安組李全澤組長、人事室許淑珍組長、消防署肖煥章署長、人事室詹東坡主任"},{"start":2375.556,"end":2400.961,"text":"綜合企劃組城市巡警監視察海巡署許靜芝副署長、人事室翁群遠專門委員、情報組朱全成專門委員、巡防組曾建仁科長、人民會一將巴魯爾主任委員"},{"start":2403.325,"end":2429.926,"text":"中核規劃署﹑亞博蘇勇署長社會福利署﹑羅赫祿署長人事是陳榮宏主任國防部作戰及計劃參謀次長是聯合作戰計劃署李昌副副處長"},{"start":2434.474,"end":2458.519,"text":"人事參謀次長是人事勤務處方中泰副處長法務部常次黃謀信檢察司李仲仁主任檢察官司法院民事廳劉素如法官"},{"start":2461.368,"end":2479.156,"text":"行政訴訟及懲戒聽郭任生法官文化部人文及出版司專門委員廖黎尼外交部條約法律司黃元良專門委員領務局莊淑涵科長"},{"start":2486.638,"end":2513.131,"text":"行政院人事總處培考處呂士一副處長、行政院公眾工程委員會企劃處胡培中副處長、補充介紹王美惠委員、陳毓珍委員請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤?沒有"},{"start":2518.161,"end":2545.675,"text":"議事錄確定現在請提案委員說明提案要旨請鄭天才委員提案說明鄭天才鄭天才不在請武力華委員提案說明武力華武力華不在請陳英委員提案說明陳英委員不在請廖國棟委員提案說明廖委員不在請孔文吉委員提案說明"},{"start":2549.381,"end":2570.854,"text":"懇委員不在請陳明文委員提案說明陳委員不在請蔡世應委員提案說明現在請內政部林宥昌部長就專題報告法案一併報告請部長"},{"start":2583.374,"end":2594.136,"text":"第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理情形、執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於"},{"start":2601.499,"end":2626.5,"text":"第一有關於選務維安的工作首先我們撤頒了選舉治安維護計畫並依次來執行該計畫督請各機關單位致重點在強化選務安全的維護包含後續號次的抽籤、證件發表會、選票的一個印製運送、保管以及投開票所等等以確保選舉順利的進行"},{"start":2628.522,"end":2657.528,"text":"第二,警政機關密切聯繫選監監察機關本部警政署督同各警察機關確實與選監委員還有警察機關密切聯繫並對候選人號誌抽籤、公辦電視證件發表會等選務工作的落實來維護安全另外在投開票當日協調選務監察人員及監察機關迅速配合狀況來處置任何的一個執法作為"},{"start":2659.434,"end":2684.356,"text":"第13在選票印製運送保管還有安危部分有關這部分的維護工作已由各警察機關協調選務機關掌握相關的一個進程並指派專責警力提高警覺執勤同時配合選務人員全程管制進出人員以及物品的檢查做好全程蒐證程序、渡房選票外流"},{"start":2685.157,"end":2711.728,"text":"第4有關投開票所的安危部署本次的投開票所計有17795所已由各直轄市、縣市政府、警察局、會同各地方選舉委員會進行期前的會刊必按治安的顧慮程度來區分等級以及部署警衛人力並且也協情、名利還有事故處理編組等權利投入"},{"start":2712.648,"end":2737.998,"text":"同時也會嚴密執行投開票所外30公尺管制區投票秩序以及安全維護第二有關於保障投票權益的部分第一在法令的依據方面公職人員選舉罷免法第17條第一項規定選舉人除另有規定之外應於戶籍地投票所來投票"},{"start":2739.244,"end":2766.593,"text":"同條的第二項也規定投票所的工作人員得在戶籍地或工作地之投票所投票但在工作地之投票所投票者以戶籍地及工作地在同一選舉區並在同一直轄市縣市為縣總統、副總統選舉頒免法第13條第一項及第三項亦有相同的規範對於執勤人員亦有相關規定來保障"},{"start":2768.488,"end":2791.117,"text":"有關於辦理員警工作地的投票部分本部的警政署持續地要求各警察機關規劃投開票日選舉資安維護的勤務必須兼顧員警投票權益的保障並請各警察機關在期前就要協調選務機關來辦理工作地投票的事宜"},{"start":2793.338,"end":2821.611,"text":"我們採取員警機動支援輪替投票的一個方式我們執勤員警如果沒有辦法辦理工作地投票者本部警政署要求各警察機關應全體動員執勤並且以內勤來支援外勤、機動編組、代班等等的一個方式使執勤員警得以分替輪替來執行勤務以及投票以兼顧選舉治安還有投票的權益"},{"start":2822.671,"end":2837.817,"text":"第4有關於消防人員投票權益部分,依據地方制度法的規定,質押市、縣市災害防救等公安安全事項及組織及人員、任免等人事及勤務管理,這是屬於地方政府的權責"},{"start":2839.216,"end":2859.921,"text":"為了便利選舉區內各級機關、學校團體、事業機構、員工前往投票中央選舉委員會巡禮在選舉之前都會函發各縣市政府等機關將投票日以放假來處理由各縣市政府函所屬消防機關單位來配合辦理"},{"start":2861.004,"end":2884.656,"text":"第13有關於選舉期間行政中立的部分本部持續要求所屬同仁保持行政中立本部警政署以定班計劃明定並函請各機關單位嚴禁所屬員警參與任何助選或其他與職務無關之行為其物之中不得談論表達個人政治立場並禁止穿戴"},{"start":2885.68,"end":2905.157,"text":"或標示特定候選人之徽章或服飾避免衍生爭議其次本部消防署亦涵發各直轄市縣市政府消防局重申公務人員行政中立法的規定並約束所屬消防人員遵守相關規定第二貫徹公平一致"},{"start":2906.437,"end":2929.929,"text":"也就是我們貫徹行政中立依法行政的原則各候選人申請案件之核定相關勤務規劃、處理事故及查查各類妨害選舉的案件均秉持公平一致性的原則不應特定黨派或因素而有所差異以上就這個選務的部分以及維安的工作跟委員會來做報告"},{"start":2931.977,"end":2953.214,"text":"其次跟大會來報告有關於原住民身份法修正草案、原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案及新民條例部分條文修正草案共19案在這邊說明本部意見敬請各位委員參考"},{"start":2956.144,"end":2972.621,"text":"首先是原住民身份法修正草案部分委員郭國文等16人及委員張宏祿等20人提案修正原住民身份法第二條增訂平埔原住民一節按憲法法庭111年10月28日憲判自第17號判決"},{"start":2977.586,"end":3002.899,"text":"原住民身份法第二條所稱原住民僅指三地原住民及平地原住民未及其他台灣原住民族自其身份未受國家法律之保障相關機關應於判決宣判日起三年內修正原住民身份法或另訂特別法本部尊重委員的提案"},{"start":3004.278,"end":3028.369,"text":"第2委員鄭天才等16人提案修正原住民身份法第5條有關未成年養子女得由本身父母或養父母申請取得原住民身份一節按民法第1077條的規定養子女與本身父母之權利義務已停止"},{"start":3030.592,"end":3044.068,"text":"提案與民法上的上開規定是有範格又倘養父母與本身父母就養子女取得原住民身份發生意見衝突如何登記恐生爭議"},{"start":3045.92,"end":3070.206,"text":"緣在情與斟酌有關養殖女得以利害關係人申請本身父母戶籍資料一截如符合戶籍法授權定班之申請戶籍藤盆及閱覽戶籍登記資料處理原則第二條第六款之規定養殖女與本身父母有其他確有法律上權利義務得上變更之關係"},{"start":3072.333,"end":3087.907,"text":"為利害關係人養子女自得申請本身父母之戶籍資料為提案養子女得申請本身父母之戶籍資料因涉及本身父母之個資提供將影響取權益原件請在與斟酌"},{"start":3089.648,"end":3115.809,"text":"第3委員鄭天才等16人及委員蔡思應等25人提案修正《原住民身份法》第4條、第7條、第8條及增訂第8條之一有關從未具原住民身份之父或母之姓者可並列登記傳統名字之羅馬拼音養子女從具原住民身份之本生父母或養父母之姓"},{"start":3116.61,"end":3132.357,"text":"以及原住民之子女無需從具原住民身份之父或母之姓或取用傳統姓名可取得原住民身份一截因涉及當事人取得原住民身份之要件本部尊重委員討論的結果"},{"start":3134.858,"end":3161.967,"text":"第二有關原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案首先有關原住民族工作權保障法第4條第5條禁用原住民族員額比例的規定將由現行約僱等五類人員每滿100人應禁用一人原住民族地區三分之一之規定修正為員工總人數之百分之一"},{"start":3162.927,"end":3169.291,"text":"原住民族地區3%令孔恩吉委員等22人提案修正為員工總人數之3%"},{"start":3172.591,"end":3202.006,"text":"原住民族地區30%以及廖國棟委員等25人、武帝華委員等18人與鄭天才委員等17人提案調整禁用比例部分本部及所屬機關恐將不足而禁用為為兼顧原住民工作權之保障同時契合機關彈性用能需求及務實運作之情形本部建議採行行政院版本並將盡力達成所定的比例"},{"start":3203.871,"end":3220.061,"text":"二、又考量本部所屬機關如警察、消防、移民及空勤等業務之特殊性其人員之金融多系以特考來取材如警察及移民特考且為各該機關之能力大中"},{"start":3221.122,"end":3248.987,"text":"為事類報考或錄取人員之身份實非本部得以管控責定如將其列入禁用原住民人數之員工總人數計算的話實務上卻有自案難行之處原建議參照身心障礙者權益保障法第38條第7項及同法實施細則第13條之規定令定排除適用之規定"},{"start":3250.322,"end":3270.452,"text":"另一各機關學校團體駐位警察設置管理辦法的規定駐位警察是由各機關學校團體領選適當人員送請直轄市警察局或縣市警察局審查合格後自費來雇用之並比照駐在單位內部人員相關規定辦理"},{"start":3272.919,"end":3301.55,"text":"監察各單位禁用住位警察之情形目前全國住位警察人數為3,233人其中據原住民身份者有66人禁用原住民的比例為2.04%至於住位警察臨用制度按上開設置管理辦法一致製程體系需由各住在單位依全責自行臨用並負擔各項費用本部列來均予以尊重"},{"start":3302.998,"end":3326.733,"text":"第三有關於姓名條例部分條文的修正草案委員鄭天才等16人及委員廖國棟等16人修正姓名條例第一條、第四條、第八條有關原住民用語修正為原住民族一節為此體力一致本部競表同意有關傳統姓名修正為傳統"},{"start":3330.168,"end":3356.237,"text":"名字一節按姓名條例第3條規定姓名包含括姓氏及名字原住民如無姓氏可僅登記名字為修正為傳統名字將影響其他少數民族之姓名登記嚴建議維持現行規定有關原住民姓名登記依其文化慣俗"},{"start":3357.797,"end":3377.884,"text":"修正為依其傳統民智,並由中央原住民主管機關會商有關機關定之一節,按行政院函請審議之原住民身份法修正草案,以將傳統民智納入規範,坦經修法通過,即可配合登記"},{"start":3379.383,"end":3406.74,"text":"二、委員鄭天才等16人、委員伍立華等20人及委員廖國棟等16人提案修正姓名條例第二條有關原住民姓名單列原住民族文字登記一節依行政院前逾111年2月11日召開跨部會會議之結論對於原住民姓名單列原住民族文字原則予以尊重"},{"start":3408.187,"end":3424.806,"text":"並請原住民族委員會調查原住民族群之意見及研擬政策宣導溝通方案本部將配合政策辦理第三委員羅美玲等18人提案修正新民條例第9條陣列原住民一"},{"start":3426.602,"end":3452.957,"text":"親隨子民誌之文化慣俗改名者無次數限制一節,據尊重及保障原住民傳統文化慣俗本部竟表同意。」以上謝謝林部長現在補充介紹中央選舉委員會主任委員李靖勇主任秘書謝美玲"},{"start":3455.516,"end":3461.48,"text":"綜合規劃處張戴啟署長、選務處蔡京告署長、法政處唐孝鈞專門委員接下來請中選會李敬勇主委請簡單報告謝謝"},{"start":3480.62,"end":3495.974,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生首先感謝主席以及各位委員會配合本會今天早上10點鐘舉行總統副總統候選人姓名號是抽籤而調整開會的時間表示感謝之意"},{"start":3496.795,"end":3513.252,"text":"那今天貴委員會的主題是第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉選務工作辦理的情形還有另外執勤軍警消海巡人員投票的權益、文化健康站等工作人員"},{"start":3514.013,"end":3537.761,"text":"在選舉期間之行政中立等等的問題來進行專題報告本會請就選務籌備的情形來跟各位做簡單的說明除了在11月15日第10次的全體委員會議所做的報告之外持續進行的各項選務的工作也簡要的說明如下第一是受理候選人登記的申請"},{"start":3539.502,"end":3553.159,"text":"總統副總統候選人升級的登記申請是在11月20日到24日來辦理完成包括全國不分區、僑居、國外國民的立法委員選舉區域及平地原住民"},{"start":3554.04,"end":3569.64,"text":"三地原住民立法院選舉候選人登記的申請其中在總統、副總統選舉的部分既有民主進步黨推薦的賴清德、蕭美琴臺灣民眾黨推薦的柯文哲、吳欣盈還有中國國民黨推薦的侯友宜"},{"start":3570.301,"end":3584.461,"text":"趙少康等三組來完成登記立法委員區域的部分一共有315人完成登記平地原住民跟山地原住民各有10人來完成登記全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員"},{"start":3585.262,"end":3594.569,"text":"有16個政黨一共178名的候選人完成登記在候選人資格審查的部分我們112年12月5日舉行第596次的委員會議審議通過三組六個人總統副總統選舉候選人的資格都符合規定"},{"start":3610.241,"end":3619.609,"text":"我們預計在112年12月15日會召開委員會議來審定公告那候選人姓名"},{"start":3620.987,"end":3640.968,"text":"及政黨號次的這個抽籤有關於總統副總統的部分今年早上10點已經完成抽籤了抽籤的結果抽的第1號的是民眾黨的柯文哲先生跟吳欣盈女士抽的第2號的是民主進步黨的賴清德先生跟蕭美琴女士中國國民黨"},{"start":3643.85,"end":3666.458,"text":"這個侯友宜先生跟趙少康先生是抽的第三號在立法委員選舉的部分我們在112年12月20日要來辦理原住民及立法委員原住民立法委員選舉候選人姓名號誌抽籤及不分區的僑居國外的國民立法委員選舉政黨號誌抽籤這會由本會來辦理"},{"start":3668.078,"end":3679.667,"text":"第4次發布候選人名單的公告本會定於112年12月15日發布第16任總統副總統候選人的名單公告另外在113年的1月2日會發布11屆立法委員選舉候選人的名單公告"},{"start":3685.492,"end":3691.555,"text":"監察競選的活動的部分本會在112年10月13日到27日已經分區舉辦了5場次的選舉監察實務的講習會邀集各直轄市縣市選舉委員會監察小組的召集人、委員、副總幹事、組長以及業務承辦人員參與"},{"start":3705.282,"end":3718.228,"text":"研習的重點最主要是要讓他們了解到112年6月9日修正公布的總統副總統選舉辦明法以及公職人員選舉辦明法的修正重點落實執行監察的工作以發揮選舉監察之效"},{"start":3720.709,"end":3723.052,"text":"繼續辦理總統副總統選舉候選人電視政見發表會本會從112年12月20日起到12月28日子一共要舉辦4場的總統副總統候選人電視政見發表會"},{"start":3736.624,"end":3762.317,"text":"其中總統的候選人是三場副總統的候選人是一場每場次以每一個候選人發表證件的時間是30分鐘分為三輪來發表證件每一輪時間是10分鐘本次總統副總統候選人電視證件發表會我們也會同步在網路直播影音檔案也會放在本會的網站供民眾來收看"},{"start":3763.357,"end":3772.344,"text":"其次辦理立法委員選舉政見發表會的部分本會在113年1月5日舉辦原住民立法委員選舉候選人電視政見發表會113年1月8日要舉辦全國不分區及僑區國外國民立法委員選舉政黨"},{"start":3783.253,"end":3806.978,"text":"電視政見發表會﹚至於區域的立法委員選舉候選人政見發表會則是由各直轄市縣市選舉委員會在113年1月3日到1月12日之間來辦理有關於選務的這個宣導的部分為使民眾能夠了解這一次選舉投票相關的訊息擴大民眾政治參與宣傳包括重點包括"},{"start":3807.918,"end":3816.914,"text":"投票日期、時間、投票時應該注意的事項、國民年滿20歲、有選舉前罷免選罷法修正的重點等等訊息"},{"start":3817.788,"end":3839.077,"text":"並且要提醒國人正確的選舉投票資訊應前往本會網站來查詢以及在通訊軟體中加入訊息查證管道的工具在宣導素材及通路方面透過多元媒體包括電視、廣播、網路、報紙等管道加強選務宣導並強化社群媒體的宣導"},{"start":3843.955,"end":3865.687,"text":"擴大宣導效益此外為加強對新住民的宣導將電視宣導影片字幕翻譯為新住民規劃為國人之六大原屬國的母語又為了加強原住民的宣導我們將宣導海報翻譯為原住民的族語並且提供媒體口播的口播稿"},{"start":3866.327,"end":3892.05,"text":"給原住民族電視台以及廣播電台擴大宣導的效果在籌辦電腦計票作業的部分電腦計票程序投開票所在開票結束後由主任管理員填寫投開票的報告表合張無誤之後派專人送鄉鎮市區的選務作業中心由選務作業中心人員將投開票的報告表"},{"start":3893.011,"end":3907.287,"text":"輸入記憶票的系統迅速完成會計本會原定資訊安全防護計畫各項網路安全以及系統備援措施都是以最高規格的防護本會預定在112年12月"},{"start":3910.806,"end":3925.541,"text":"舉辦55場的教育訓練在112年12月29日、113年1月4日跟1月12日我們一共要辦理三次的電腦計票作為全國的模擬演練提高投開票資訊正確性及時效並且模擬異常狀況進行演練以立即時的應變最後報告結語"},{"start":3932.107,"end":3951.897,"text":"總統副總統選舉及立法委員選舉都是眾所矚目的全國性選舉本會將秉持公正、公平、公開的原則並恪守行政重力的規範確實督導直轄市縣市選舉委員會妥順辦理各項選務準備的工作並順利完成投開票的作業以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3953.797,"end":3956.819,"text":"主席、各位委員"},{"start":3976.433,"end":3996.007,"text":"內政委員會緊就第16任總統副總統及第11屆立法委員選舉有關於文化健康站工作人員在選舉期間的行政中立以及行政院跟大院委員所提的原住民身份法修正草案"},{"start":3996.874,"end":4009.016,"text":"原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案還有就是大宴委員所提的信民條例部分條文修正草案簡要說明如下"},{"start":4010.849,"end":4027.53,"text":"關於原民會補助設置的各縣市的503個文化健康站我們是以健康照顧和文化傳承為目標來照顧全國的原住民原鄉跟都會地區的長者"},{"start":4028.43,"end":4042.871,"text":"那麼為了確保行政中立嚴明慧已經透過先導跟韓文各縣市政府以及文化健康站來遵守相關的法令的規範並堅守行政中立的原則"},{"start":4044.56,"end":4071.049,"text":"有關原住民族身份法修正草案我們是據司法院憲法法庭111年度憲判第4號的判決一直所示原住民身份的取得除了血緣關係之外應該還是要具備客觀的認同表徵因此針對原住民跟原住民"},{"start":4072.149,"end":4094.524,"text":"原住民與非原住民所生子女以及收養關係純系的養子女我們都採取相同的身份認定標準同時也增加自願放棄原住民身份的補救機制來具體保障個人取得身份的認同權跟平等權"},{"start":4096.543,"end":4125.596,"text":"關於新民條例修正草案鄭天才委員、吳立華委員、羅梅林委員、廖國東委員等所提的修正草案本會見表尊重關於廖國東委員所提的第二條修正條文建議來參佐原住民族語言發展法的規定調整為台灣原住民族傳統名字以原住民族文字登記者不再此限"},{"start":4127.154,"end":4151.979,"text":"至於有關原住民族工作權保障法的部分為了落實蔡英文總統有關原住民的政策主張以及回應司法院釋字第810號解釋的意旨來修正公佈門用原住民族擴大植物類型來提高禁用比例如果"},{"start":4153.921,"end":4172.502,"text":"這個院版的修正草案可以獲得答應的支持的話,一估可以增加原住民13796個工作機會,而且有助提供穩定的就業機會跟提高工作收入"},{"start":4173.243,"end":4183.957,"text":"那另外關於得標廠商因繳納代金金額超過政府採購法標金金額的這個部分的比例我們會另訂這個減輕機制來解決實務上的這個爭議最後"},{"start":4189.956,"end":4213.486,"text":"大院委員所提的各項修正條文涉及到原住民族身份認定要件以及實務的運作原住民族就業遣役原民會已經審慎審酌為了落實憲法保障原住民的身份認同、錢跟工作的遣役等福祉我們建議請"},{"start":4215.007,"end":4223.032,"text":"各位委員可以支持行政院提案的版本以上報告進行委員指教來謝謝其他各部會的報告都請自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前原理做幾點宣告本會委員與"},{"start":4241.863,"end":4267.019,"text":"原民委員發言時間6分鐘、必要時得延長2分鐘、非本會委員發言時間5分鐘、上午10點30分、截止發言登記因為今天法案處理本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有現在請登記第一位賴品瑜委員發言"},{"start":4275.204,"end":4280.626,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩主席有請內政部林部長林部長請部長好選戰目前到1月13號大概剩下30幾天那大家都在做最後的衝刺同時間我想這個我們相關的部會特別是內政部這邊應該要上緊發條為選舉該做的準備也不少啦第一個就是我想問部長"},{"start":4302.614,"end":4320.184,"text":"因為其實這陣子不只是這幾天這陣子都會陸續看到這個各地的警方偵辦選舉賭盤的新聞那從北從基樓新北到屏東其實都有這個偵破主頭的消息那在這邊我要先稱讚這個警政署"},{"start":4321.084,"end":4333.835,"text":"有這個去偵查有這個成果啦但我想很多這個選舉的手法都是環環相扣的比如說地下賭盤很多人可能會拿這個地下賭盤來閒聊當作類似一種民調來參考"},{"start":4338.218,"end":4352.577,"text":"所以就有一種可能說也許會發生這種狀況是故意呢去用這個開讓幾萬票來暗示縮小差距或是說擴大差距來誤導民眾這也是一個非常需要注意的趨勢那另外回到選舉啦"},{"start":4353.658,"end":4378.495,"text":"我想這個各界還是高度關注中國議題有沒有中國的黑手伸進來介入台灣的選舉我想這個答案是肯定的只是說到底是介入的多深介入的樣態到底是什麼樣子那事實上先前我們也可以看到這個在APEC的會議中拜登也這個罕見的向習近平明確的去表達不希望中國干涉台灣的選舉連美國這個都有在掌握台灣的動向了那台灣自己呢"},{"start":4383.978,"end":4410.399,"text":"我可以說其實我們有看到就是說有新聞最近還蠻多新聞都有提到說包含台北還有本席所在的新北還有中部的彰化其實都有出現這個里長到中國旅遊統戰團的現象那如果今天你說是單純的旅遊就算了但為什麼都是里長為什麼可以用這個比行情低廉非常多極度低廉的費用甚至是只要出機票錢去玩"},{"start":4411,"end":4413.966,"text":"這些都是必須要延伸去了解的問題點我想請問部長內政部這邊對於這個情形掌握到什麼樣的程度了"},{"start":4420.269,"end":4438.561,"text":"非常謝謝我想有關於這個賭盤的部分這個向來不是新鮮事每一次選舉到的時候就特定或者是有意圖的人士意圖用這個賭盤來影響大選我們在這一次的一個"},{"start":4444.585,"end":4469.072,"text":"整個的一個二制賭盤的部分我們特別是以六合彩的一個主頭來作為我們相關的一個重點的一個對象因為歷來都是由這個六合彩的主頭經營還有這個通訊的一個網路下注的比例是最高的所以我們本署警政署已經要求各警察機關結合青圓3.0的工作計畫"},{"start":4472.793,"end":4492.737,"text":"來進行相關通報的部件,主動發掘在轄內的簽署站有沒有相關情形所以也再次強調呼籲不要以身來釋法我們目前9月20日到9月26日我們已經執行第一波的全國同步掃蕩賭博的專案"},{"start":4495.958,"end":4510.988,"text":"現在此時此刻我們正在進行的是第二波的一個專案掃蕩那在前次第一波的專案掃蕩的部分期間呢我們掌握具體的一個請職有149件那並且已經移送了77件98人"},{"start":4513.129,"end":4537.697,"text":"那其實中國借選也從來不是新聞只不過它借選的一個方式變得越來越隱晦而且越多樣那過去這個用賭盤來借選或者是說中國的一個資金來借選那這個本來就是我們加強的一個重點那第二剛剛委員特別提到有這個很多的所謂的村里長"},{"start":4538.597,"end":4558.826,"text":"被中國招待去進行相關的一個旅遊相關的一個情資我們目前掌握收報的這樣的一個情資大概有51件或者是51團556人目前已經有查獲的一個案件正在偵辦當中"},{"start":4560.933,"end":4587.945,"text":"那當然現在因為這個竊選的方式很多那它不一定是直接竊選它也許用假訊息或者是錯假訊息來擾亂或者是干擾大選那造成民眾對政府的一個誤解或者是負面的一個情緒我想這個都是現在我們特別注意的狀況是 因為其實這兩個問題雖然這個內容不一樣但本質上都是在詢問您這個影響竊選的狀況"},{"start":4590.046,"end":4614.324,"text":"因為我想落地接待這件事情就像你講的這不是新鮮事不是第一次聽到那甚至說不要說里長啦過去就有很多這個學生大學生在寒暑假被中國的大學招待過去旅遊啊參觀而且也都是非常低廉的費用甚至是不用費用然後去體驗這個住好吃好的旅遊甚至本席以前在大學的時候也有被詢問過當然是沒有去啦但也被詢問過"},{"start":4615.625,"end":4638.6,"text":"當然大家也都知道天下沒有白吃的午餐哪有平白無故被招待這麼好的事情不過回到這個村里長的招待啦會找上里長當然主要是兩個原因嘛第一個就是說村里長本身他的性質他不是說他不是狹義的公務員他領的是事務補助費可能因此這個到中國入境不一定要事先申報啦"},{"start":4639.44,"end":4663.503,"text":"那第二就是村里長就是最基層的民政單位那其實就像剛才部長自己提到了啦他們大部分都跟選民往來密切所以中國最能夠藉由村里長來達到傳遞假訊息並且籠絡選民的任務那其實像我剛提到最近很多新聞也都有提到說這一次彰化縣有特別集中跟頻繁的趨勢啦那"},{"start":4664.904,"end":4683.911,"text":"報導裡也有說到中國重慶市台辦從這個三個月分成三個梯次招待彰化縣300多位喔非常多300多位村里長到當地旅遊那為什麼挑上彰化有一說是說比起這個一些有明顯政治傾向的地區中部可能在政黨傾向上比較搖擺啦"},{"start":4685.612,"end":4699.141,"text":"所以這個其實也是中國看上去借選的考量所以這件事情選戰只剩下30幾天了這件事情內政部真的是要積極的徹查啦去瞭解就是說各縣市的村里長有沒有異常被招待附中旅遊的狀況那剛才你也有說在查嘛"},{"start":4700.922,"end":4718.293,"text":"那我這邊要講要督促就是說如果有這種明顯的對價不相等的狀況那該送檢調偵辦的就要立刻去送辦千萬不要去輕忽啦那再來是不是我也想問黃署長這邊啦因為除了這個賭博跟被招待之外買票啊、會選這種"},{"start":4720.094,"end":4741.199,"text":"不正當的行為向來在選舉我們也都要嚴肅看待可是其實之前我也有跟警政署討論過隨著時代的進步買票賄選已經不是只有這種實體的物品給現金這種行為其實我們常常在說要查金流看犯罪嫌疑人有沒有異常的款項進出賬戶再去徹查他的來源作為犯罪的證據"},{"start":4742.199,"end":4765.308,"text":"那如果以現在最新的科技發展來說例如透過虛擬的NFT或者是說虛擬貨幣作為媒介這些線上的隱秘的難以追蹤的方式請問署長這邊該如何處理是就虛擬貨幣這些幣流的一個追查警政署是訂定一個科真人才的一個教育訓練計畫"},{"start":4766.809,"end":4779.934,"text":"那我們預計會有一年要培訓500位對避留的一個追查追蹤的方式來進行教育訓練那這個也包含了所有的專家來收購還包括金黃會的一個專業人員來協助我們訓練這些同仁"},{"start":4784.229,"end":4803.636,"text":"了解對因為我想這個虛擬貨幣他的或許啦他的交易過程是隱秘加密的但是最後他事實上還是要把這個貨幣去兌現成各國的這個在地貨幣嗎所以如何去透過比對領取的帳戶的人別資料那進而去研判是不是有異常會選的可能性那"},{"start":4804.376,"end":4833.298,"text":"可能找得到樁腳但是源頭這個部分其實也是要加強那我剛才這個署長講的這個計畫我也有看到啦那我想請問一下因為你說現在有在訓練嗎那這些人有辦法在這次選舉就投入偵辦的實務嗎其實我們的科證人才一直都在訓練早幾年前已經都在訓練那這500位是擴大擴大他的一個訓練所以這個之前已經訓練過就可以投入到這一次的一個選戰相關的必有的一個追查"},{"start":4833.752,"end":4862.951,"text":"了解因為上週其實在這個財政委員會也有委員有問到說防範虛擬貨幣借選的議題那其實當時我看到說現場就有提出提案要求金管會要研議大額通報的標準那這部分也是要請有請許志祺加快腳步啦訓練腳步否則這個科技日新月異那要去這個進入感上應用在偵辦的實務上如果需要跨單位啦比方說我剛提到的金管會嘛法務部合作溝通的其實也應該要儘速處理"},{"start":4864.353,"end":4874.461,"text":"可以嗎?那這個部分就是要再麻煩內政部還有警政署這邊多多擔待了OK,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,謝謝主席,謝謝好,請回座,謝謝賴委員接下來請陳益臻委員質詢請我們主委,中選會李主委請"},{"start":4895.202,"end":4916.342,"text":"委員好主委早今天這個總統副總統號次已經抽定是的那之前在沸沸揚揚討論這個總統副總統候選人資格審定的時候就是想請教你們那時候說審定合格嘛三組候選人都審定合格是的那請問三組候選人你們的這個審定呢你們的審查是進行這個形式上的審查還是實質上的審查"},{"start":4917.743,"end":4931.628,"text":"是實質的審查當初在討論這些這個有關什麼恢復國籍啊什麼雙重國籍啊是不是或者是規劃或回復這個部分的時候這個你們都有相關的資料吧我們有向內政部來函查內政部也非常清楚的告訴我們六組的候選人三組候選人六個"},{"start":4942.632,"end":4963.62,"text":"候選人裡面沒有任何一個有回復國籍或者是所以你們是按照內政部的公文是吧那當然因為他是主任他有沒有檢附相關的施政沒有嘛就只有公文嘛他告訴我們結果所以你們是按照內政部的公文告訴大眾說這個都符合資格所以是內政部告訴你們這是非常明顯而且是確定是內政部說那我們請內政部"},{"start":4968.618,"end":4993.779,"text":"所以有沒有人自始就有中華民國國籍或者原來是美國籍或是規劃或是回復的這部分內政部有做實質的審查嗎我想就內政部的部分我們有進行相關的一個查證有實質查證就對了包括過去對我們會查他的戶籍的一個資料那戶籍啦 國籍的部分呢也一樣我們會查戶籍都有做詳查好那所以你們手上有相關的這個資料嗎是的很詳細的資料那這個部分是不是應該公開提示給這個社會大眾知道"},{"start":4997.902,"end":5016.033,"text":"委員會想跟你報告一下第一個因為不管是這個蕭女士的父親或者是他個人他從來都沒有上司國籍的一個資料所以他自始至終就是中華民國國籍對嘛那應該會有相關那每個人不管從戶政啊或是國籍或者他有父親有國籍的相關都有相關事證嘛"},{"start":5017.074,"end":5041.223,"text":"他就是他就是他就是國籍啊他並沒有任何他並沒有任何上司或者回覆的這個資料那你至少會有他的相關的資料公告給大眾知道嘛我原理所謂相關資料指的是比如說我們看到的因為蕭美琴這個現在副總統候選人他當初在自己在媒體上說他只有美國籍啊他說過他自己只有美國籍啊"},{"start":5042.123,"end":5057.098,"text":"不過那個是我們是必須他自己說的這個我們說的我們依法對所以依法對那他自己這樣說的話你們那他到底原來的中華民國國籍是因為他放棄美國籍後他就回復了這個中華民國國籍呢還是什麼情形我想"},{"start":5058.98,"end":5077.658,"text":"你們既然查證過了你們是怎麼樣認定你們就應該把這個過程公諸我是說公諸給大眾知道這個減少社會的這個對立啦大家都清楚嘛那委員會跟你報告這非常簡單因為他從來沒有喪失所以當然他也沒有回復所以你意思是他面對媒體他面對媒體訪問的時候所以你的意思是他面對媒體訪問他是說謊的"},{"start":5081.622,"end":5107.804,"text":"不是不是所以他誤會了對他有可能是誤會所以你說這個我們這個副總候選人他的認知能力有問題沒有我不能這樣子講對自己的國籍都沒有辦法認知清楚我想並不能這樣子對年輕的時候都沒有辦法認知自己是美國籍還是中華民國籍我想非常清楚只要是中華民國的國籍一出生的時候他就具有他認為他自己是只有美國籍你們卻幫他認定說他有中華民國國籍那我現在說他的認知錯誤你就說不是"},{"start":5108.484,"end":5129.414,"text":"那委員我們依法我們依法他就是原住民國所以我們這樣爭辯沒什麼爭辯的話事實上都會陷入各說各話所以我希望你們就把你們查到的事證你們怎麼認定的你們或是你們根本我剛才已經講得很清楚你們沒有做任何查證反正你們就認為說他爸爸原來就是中華民國不是不是他爸爸原來就是中華民國也有相關事證吧你把它公告出來那委員"},{"start":5132.716,"end":5143.741,"text":"他從來沒有申請上司那我請問你我說我有中華民國我說我沒有中華民國國籍那你們來認定的時候你們就說你本來就有你說有就有嗎一定有相關事證委員你這樣子邏輯上面有一些"},{"start":5149.383,"end":5163.532,"text":"呃……可能有一些……我都這樣沒錯因為來來我先請問你蕭美琴自己說自己只有美國籍你們卻說她從來就有中華民國國籍所以我說那表示她當初在說謊的呃她在受訪的時候說錯嘛有可能她說錯了齁我們也不要說她說謊她可能說錯嘛對不對"},{"start":5165.954,"end":5181.083,"text":"有可能是說錯啦對不對那部分我想我們是就行政機關我們國際法的我們國際法的相關的規定他要麼就說謊要麼他自己認知錯誤覺得自己只有沒國籍吧委員我覺得這樣子道歉一點啦對自己的國籍這麼年輕的時候都會認知錯誤這個"},{"start":5185.005,"end":5205.405,"text":"所以我說我們這樣繼續爭辯實際上意義小也會增加衝突那現在會出現了嘛我說是不是你們把這些東西弄清楚公諸大眾嘛他附近也要有中華民國國籍比如說我舉例比如他父親一定有出國嘛他後來有去美國嘛一定有中華民國護照啊什麼這類的東西啊他什麼時候取得什麼時間點寫出來給社會大眾知道"},{"start":5207.867,"end":5233.12,"text":"以恃眾疑、把這個社會減少這個寵物。」你們不提供就算了反正就是今天就是內政部說了算啦反正也不用提供不是我們依國籍法相關的規定去進行查證查證的結果他就是有中華民國因為他從來沒有上司他也沒有申請上司他有取得中華民國國籍嗎他當然有啊他有什麼時候取得啊為什麼自己認為沒有咧"},{"start":5234.634,"end":5244.377,"text":"他自己會說沒有,我也不知道為什麼那時候我不曉得他的心目中只有美國這兩個國家委員這樣子說,我想你個人的意見尊重我說我們不用爭執,你不公告也就算了"},{"start":5252.56,"end":5278.885,"text":"沒有什麼公佈公告的問題我們在上個禮拜的新聞稿裡面已經講了一遍都是用新聞稿嘛這就像蔡總統說他有有那個什麼論文什麼都是用新聞稿東西公佈出來嘛以示眾議就好了沒關係齁我去問下一題啊對不起啊來因為時間有限齁那個來你們也不公告啊就反而憑一紙公以後做什麼事情只要你們的公文就可以了委員這個不能這樣子講我們依國習法我們依法行政他沒有任何回覆"},{"start":5279.985,"end":5308.176,"text":"他沒有申請上司他就是中華民國籍啊這麼簡單就是這樣子啊那我接受你的說法就是說蕭美琴在以前在接受媒體訪問的時候她要麼認知錯誤要麼她說謊就兩個吧還是她還是媒體報道錯誤就尊重委員你個人意見尊重你個人意見只有兩個可能啦兩個可能之一啦好來我想請問喔這個我們的我們上次不是上次修這個總統副總統選舉罷免法吧這個一起修的嘛記得吧在我們這裡委員會有修這個法"},{"start":5309.636,"end":5317.441,"text":"我想請問這個總統副總統選舉報言法有沒有規定裡面有沒有規定有兩個政黨可以聯合推薦總統副總統誰會回答就是選舉報言法第22條第1項有沒有規定可以聯合推薦兩個以上的政黨答案在這裡哪一位回答"},{"start":5334.022,"end":5345.668,"text":"這是哪一個單位?還是中選會要這樣回答?當然這個法令是內政部管的還是中選會要幫忙回答?報告委員,依照總統選舉、副總統選舉罷免法規定是得有兩個以上政黨共同推薦"},{"start":5346.974,"end":5350.297,"text":"那時候討論要聯合推薦總統、副總統這個有什麼問題?為什麼會被告什麼縮延載湯?"},{"start":5368.82,"end":5390.698,"text":"那請問以後兩個政黨都會聯合推薦?兩個政黨在討論說到底怎麼樣聯合推薦?這個有什麼問題?這個就尊重提告的人他的一個主張跟訴求所以說你認為應該沒有這樣的問題了齁?那個提告的人...提告的人他當然...任何人都可以提...任何人都可以提嘛你認為呢?你對這個法律的解釋呢?你覺得可不可以聯合推薦?我想我們不方便在這邊談論這個候選人他現在已經...我要討論這個法律現在...現在已經..."},{"start":5395.181,"end":5422.775,"text":"現在已經進入到那個以後還是有可能今天已經抽選了我們也不是針對這個案子我們只是說以後有可能會發生嗎這個我們可能要看他的可不可以聯合推薦嗎這個我們可能要看他過程裡面看他過程裡面的可不可以在一起討論說聯合推薦這件事情嗎但是他不只是討論這個所謂聯合推薦他也許還有其他的這些談論的事情嘛所以這要看他的具體的事證跟提告人他的訴求OK"},{"start":5424.196,"end":5452.448,"text":"所以說你覺得這個被告發這件事情你如果就你的這個法律判斷你覺得這個告發這個施政會成立嗎沒有我不是法官我沒有辦法你不要吧反正你任何人都有提告權我也接受不過濫用司法資源或只是為了創造一些這當然是這一次當然是過去以後還是有可能發生我們既然總統副總統選舉辦法一定有這一條可以政黨聯合推薦當然各個主要政黨的主要的領袖人物坐在一起討論如何聯合推薦也不應該是一件犯法的事情對吧"},{"start":5457.95,"end":5470.523,"text":"我剛剛講過當然他依兩個政黨合作的一個程序去進行在法裡面是允許的但他有沒有其他的事情就不曉得所以要尊重提告人提告的那個內容接下來請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":5488.064,"end":5490.246,"text":"我先請內政部林部長請部長部長我們今天我們今天題目就是"},{"start":5503.376,"end":5525.628,"text":"警察不在即投票我想請問一下其實現在我們雖然沒有不在即投票但我們的工作人員都有移轉投票的制度了嘛對不對如果我警察或是我選務人員我在我今天我要去擔任選務人員的話我就是可以在我的工作地點投票了吧"},{"start":5526.468,"end":5533.623,"text":"對不對直轄市或者縣市都可以了嘛所以我們的警察應該也都是有這樣的嘛"},{"start":5534.737,"end":5560.539,"text":"我們會盡可能的因為當天因為選舉有選務的這個勤務不過這個已經行之多年我們在選前都會請各警察機關去排定輪休或者是讓我們的內勤的同仁這個來做這個相關的一個支援那另外也就是希望就是說讓員警能夠在一方面完成勤務那二方面也可以輪流去做投票"},{"start":5562.402,"end":5585.472,"text":"現在其實就有這個制度了啦對不對那只是一直以來這陣其實因為民主選舉已經有一段蠻長的時間現在都越來越順暢我們會盡可能的讓同仁能夠回去投票現在其實制度是有了啦只是說因為停務因為輪休的問題可能沒有辦法百分之百而已啦對不對那我覺得其實啊"},{"start":5589.093,"end":5603.458,"text":"警察的權益他有他的投票權我覺得當然我們要保障我覺得就是說其實我們如果就是把它做到再精進一點能夠那個比例越高我覺得是會比較好啦 對不對"},{"start":5605.479,"end":5629.732,"text":"是啦齁是沒錯那其實我們就是朝這個方向去努力就我覺得盡量尤其是讓基層的員警啦齁他可以比較有比較多的機會啦齁這個他能夠去投票我覺得我們朝這個方向應該來努力啦齁好好謝謝喔齁好謝謝林部長那我來請這個中選會那個李主委"},{"start":5639.362,"end":5655.056,"text":"主委我們選務人員的修正公務人員比例從二分之一調為三分之一在今年的選務人員的招募在明年投票我們有沒有比較順利"},{"start":5657.245,"end":5668.918,"text":"謝謝貴院的修法的幫忙自從公務人員的比例從二分之一調降為三分之一那今年的招募的工作是進行的比以往都要順利的多"},{"start":5669.662,"end":5690.461,"text":"都沒有問題啦在我們原來規劃是10月30號以前要完全招募完畢其實各地選委會都超前而且啦我們這一次的這個選務人員的工作費其實也有調高啦是的應該也是增加了不少誘因啦謝謝大家"},{"start":5692.583,"end":5707.852,"text":"不過這邊有一個就是要跟主委就是說我在基層上我聽到的就是說我們投開票所其實有分大小有的啦我舉例就好了"},{"start":5709.053,"end":5730.744,"text":"我們新北時定的豐田里才80幾個人投票人數我們板橋有一個投開票所、社後就5000多人大家都想要去比較小的工作輕鬆同樣的一天這樣子工作輕鬆"},{"start":5732.285,"end":5758.061,"text":"那有沒有我們未來這一個我們這個投開票所這個工作的費用其實會特別的比如說到五、六千人以上的這一種我們是不是要有特別的獎勵不一定是錢可能你的技工你的什麼這個我們有沒有這個方向來思考這樣子才不會說很"},{"start":5759.742,"end":5771.847,"text":"任務繁重的人越多的其實我認為是更需要有經驗的人去嘛那我們如何讓有更有經驗的願意去人口數比較多的地方來做這個選務人員"},{"start":5774.37,"end":5789.99,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,其實我們要感謝所有全國的選務工作人員,大家都是要來奉獻、服務,所以沒什麼藉口就對了當然這個勞役的問題會因為投開票所規模的大小而有所不同"},{"start":5791.111,"end":5807.433,"text":"至於會不會根據這個勞役不同的情況來做工作費的調整我想我們的這個工作資給工作費的資給這個辦法最近剛剛行政院支持修正通過了我們會在事辦一段時間之後再來進行檢討"},{"start":5809.855,"end":5823.138,"text":"我的意思不是只有增加工作費啦我們公務人員有續獎有什麼的啊那他的勞務這個沒有問題我說的是那個我剛才講不是你如果單純是調高那可能也不一定馬上可以做得到非議的問題而有不同的獎程的標準這是我們想應該是要這樣子做"},{"start":5834.8,"end":5836.221,"text":"接下來請王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":5868.243,"end":5871.424,"text":"主席我們請選舉那個李主委李主委主委早主委李我們每年1月13日選舉選33天是在這裏面的時候本市是覺得說最近你們在12月7日有開一個記者會"},{"start":5895.255,"end":5907.682,"text":"說外來的介入、選舉、還是兜版的問題是不是說也有很多在主持裡面用作很多單位的叫人去選黨人在選黨黨中你們開記者會說你們去找什麼什麼跟看這個消息是真的還假的"},{"start":5920.009,"end":5925.894,"text":"主委,如果像阿公阿嬤都在收音機跟手機沒在用,如果這個消息傳出來時跟土民大會一傳一傳,你覺得這要用什麼去選就更好,來主委你講一下"},{"start":5941.901,"end":5958.812,"text":"有關於錯假訊息的防治這個也是我們今年選務非常重要的一點那錯假訊息的防治當然我們在第一時間掌握了訊息沒有啦,主委,我們是要跟你請教的是我們選舉會的設備在那天的記者會你也說得很清楚的可能沒有記者會啦,可能是我們的新聞局的那種,就是澄清的新聞局"},{"start":5967.097,"end":5974.38,"text":"對阿,跟你們的新聞局,你們就是要跟人家說怎樣去了解,去讓人了解說,跟這個訊息是真的還假,跟我現在是要跟你請教說,你們要怎樣用這個機會給你選擇啦,"},{"start":5985.094,"end":6010.463,"text":"來 像你這樣要怎麼說第一個當然是我們民眾的這個嗜讀的能力應該要提升啦齁但是這可能不是第一期間內有辦法做到的這個訊息第一期間沒辦法做到 全33間都要甩掉了但是這個訊息的真假其實還是有一些事實查核的機構他們所提供的這個資料都可以作為參考的"},{"start":6012.191,"end":6019.655,"text":"因為主委是因為本席看到你們有發展出來的時候我覺得就是傷害台灣的民主、選舉、歐美共現在本席就是要跟你說跟你們說這個"},{"start":6030.78,"end":6034.083,"text":"這件事沒有意義啦我第一時間一定要說明即時的這個說明那透過不同的媒體的管道把它說出去讓大家知道主委剛才那天而已啦再來都沒人知道啦"},{"start":6051.216,"end":6059.763,"text":"我們也可以收音機也可以說什麼都可以很多選擇的方法多元的管道多元的管道因為我現在是覺得說要有好的領袖要讓人留下來因為留下來的時候這個消息會越來越恐怖如果沒有"},{"start":6072.093,"end":6076.256,"text":"一直說、說、說阿伯有東西去啦其實也不只是我們選委會在做這個挫甲訊息的澄清政府還有部門都有在處理這件事"},{"start":6083.986,"end":6098.141,"text":"對啦,我就是說你因為他們有12個設備,你們做這個動作,我是要...我們也是職責所在,一定要做的。對啦,跟我說應該可以再做就好了。好,我再介紹,我再介紹。來,請保證法務部,來。林部長,還有黃次長。"},{"start":6108.776,"end":6115.36,"text":"來 部長市長在這裡面大家好我們想跟你談到的就是說應該是最近的選舉你們有覺得有壓力嗎在1月30日我們有發佈一個說因為你們如果請我介入選舉的位或是多半"},{"start":6136.188,"end":6139.389,"text":"的問題選舉期間總統一千萬有這個問題嗎?有這個高利貸稅?對,我們有這個獎勵的一個獎金的措施有啦齁?因為本席怎麼會跟你講這個呢?因為我們要多宣導,因為有聽說,我們這裡有多忙,這裡有招待要去大陸出頭,大家講講實在的啦"},{"start":6164.279,"end":6178.122,"text":"每個里長都很辛苦的啦,那是少之又少的里長才會放交代去出頭啦,講實在里長他講的也不對,我不是白白交代捏,我還要開辦理考慮捏,所以部長那個我們的單位要去找好,因為"},{"start":6187.524,"end":6192.568,"text":"事由：立法院第10屆第8會期內政委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":6211.781,"end":6215.403,"text":"這次會任期本來4萬5,如果調整到5萬,因為我們知道立法院大家都辛苦嘛,只是說辛苦的時候,有一半的願意交代要去做"},{"start":6230.251,"end":6244.494,"text":"思想的問題裡面這樣補充你認為要怎麼做?因為真的有人交代去喔來補充你講一下這種思想改造這是非常問題很大我們一定是經過相關的一個搜報它有確定的一些事實我們會做相關的一個處理"},{"start":6259.534,"end":6264.298,"text":"因為部長您的單位說實在最近有多少出去嘛跟您查嘛,您能誰知道有多少嘛,出入有多少人嘛,一到十到多少嘛,住在什麼嘛,您如果說啊,我們又廟會,大家交代去住廟的那裡,這我們沒話說"},{"start":6282.371,"end":6287.435,"text":"這期斷好又吃好這思維改造真的我們要有作為因為我覺得說"},{"start":6292.079,"end":6306.873,"text":"要加強,不加強就說,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代,還有人交代"},{"start":6314.099,"end":6334.769,"text":"在這裏你也知道我來自嘉義市嘛你也是北部縣嘛一家人因為嘉義最特別的就是有一個阿里山嘉義阿里山的橋下就是本社所在的所在就是嘉義市現在很多我們的目睹嘉義市有不怕的會出"},{"start":6339.394,"end":6347.096,"text":"很多六千多棟在這裏面長久以來都沒有發動起到使用執照本事要跟你探討的就是說在嘉義市一個文創園區裏面也有很多棟的到現在立法院的建物裏面也有很多應该你們內政的"},{"start":6364.562,"end":6368.143,"text":"執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等工作人員於執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益、文化健康站等"},{"start":6388.368,"end":6398.955,"text":"要多聯繫,跟這一次市政府要多聯繫一下,跟部長,你覺得自己在這件事,你要如何,有覺得要怎麼去幫助嗎?來,部長,來。"},{"start":6407.049,"end":6417.397,"text":"議員你剛才說的那一棟是歷史建物還是一般的木造的房子?這個不太一樣我現在就是說有歷史的建物有歷史的建物的法條"},{"start":6426.044,"end":6441.221,"text":"這步我們站著的、會站著的現在到不成為止就是無法去突破像我們文創園區、嘉義市一個這麼大的所在的文創園區已經很多年、很多年到現在它還無法站著使用這間"},{"start":6448.06,"end":6459.864,"text":"文化園區一個人在一個園區裡面應該有相關的價位才對你剛才說的沒辦法輸到修容這是樹林的樹樹林的樹就是未來消防的他沒有修容這條樹他也不知道要怎麼消防如果他抓到樹林去修容是沒有這個問題他是以前到現在都沒有"},{"start":6475.969,"end":6476.712,"text":"申請檢抹的就是人家說的違章建築的"},{"start":6481.906,"end":6494.493,"text":"但違章建築意識是否有保存的這個階段?這可能要來...喔!沒錯!很有階段的!喔!很有階段!對!所以說我希望沒錯!跟營建署、跟嘉義市市政府,喔!這不算是我們的費用,這是要怎樣?如果對應的問題,到底要怎麼做?"},{"start":6508.021,"end":6519.493,"text":"是 委員是不是你剛才說到這個文化園區在個案的部分是不是在農會後我請國土管理署來幫你推領我認為我們不是說文創園區裡面"},{"start":6524.238,"end":6541.505,"text":"我們這個六千多棟的木造的所在我們也要去關心所以說本身我們也能夠自立能夠讓自己是這個木造的有一個保障我們要好好協助因為木造也有很多不一樣的類型我們要研究看看因為我們以前都是"},{"start":6549.608,"end":6559.477,"text":"提供的、提供的判斷就是無綱我們現在是國家的募集,要如何保準我們來研究一下以上,謝謝好,謝謝現在叫做國土管理署,不是營建署,好,來,繼續來,陳以信委員請質詢"},{"start":6581.589,"end":6583.916,"text":"謝謝昭偉是不是請中選會李主委備詢請李主委"},{"start":6595.123,"end":6614.936,"text":"主委早我想要針對台南市現在的立法委員選舉第5選區現在候選人是王家珍那他因為現在有一個之前的助理費的案件所以在緩刑當中我現在要問他現在針對他立法委員登記的參選資格中選會現在的認定是什麼"},{"start":6619.649,"end":6638.567,"text":"跟委員做個說明有關於立法委員候選人資格的認定的問題我們會在這個月15號的委員會議來進行你對他這個案子有沒有了解這個案子我是看媒體報導有一些了解你不知道他這個案子現在可能有爭議你們有可能會"},{"start":6640.328,"end":6659.116,"text":"你們有可能會不受理他的登記對不對最後的結果必須要是15號的委員會我當然知道我們現在就是要來討論這個事情為什麼因為我們已經預先看到這個事情大家討論的重點可能在公職人員選罷法第26條第9款的"},{"start":6661.237,"end":6662.037,"text":"法院判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了"},{"start":6678.223,"end":6703.489,"text":"還沒有執行或者執行還沒有完或者是在緩刑中或者是行刑權施加消滅等等這種種的狀況也都是消極資格的情況我知道這個修法這個修法當然還有很多的疑義我們不是現在討論的重點我現在要問的就是說這個修法是在5月的時候進行是"},{"start":6703.789,"end":6718.676,"text":"那王家珍他那個時候案件的判決是在2月所以他那個時候申請要緩刑時間點是2月他怎麼會知道3個月之後他的緩刑的申請會變成他不能夠參選的理由呢"},{"start":6720.439,"end":6734.41,"text":"我們有關於候選人資格的認定的時間點就是在登記截止的時間登記截止的時候也就是24號到24號不是我是說2月的時候王家珍他要選擇"},{"start":6736.911,"end":6762.362,"text":"這個緩刑的時候他怎麼會知道他如果選擇緩刑他三個月之後會因為修法然後他沒有辦法取得這個候選人的資格呢?如果他當時二月之後選擇一刻罰金就沒這回事啊他當時信賴緩刑並不會有其他的後遺症這個信賴為什麼到三個月之後不見了然後現在中選會要對他來可能要以這個理由來剝奪他的參選資格勒?"},{"start":6763.903,"end":6776.07,"text":"我想這個緩刑或者是一顆罰金這是法院的判決來做決定他就是判他可以一顆罰金也可以緩刑啊倒不一定是這個候選不是你現在第9款只有針對緩刑沒有針對一顆罰金嘛"},{"start":6779.432,"end":6806.449,"text":"所以他二月的時候他說選擇一顆髮金他現在就可以選啊一顆髮金也必須要執行完畢一顆髮金前腳的就執行完畢了嗎對啊所以他當時選擇一顆髮金他就可以現在就可以選啊結果他當時選擇緩刑然後你們現在就有可能按照新法26條第9款然後讓他不能夠登記啊我想不管任何的個案就是說我們什麼不管任何個案我告訴你來我問你新法第二條是什麼概念"},{"start":6809.091,"end":6826.136,"text":"你自己學法律不曉得刑法第二條是什麼概念刑法第二條就是罪行法定主義嘛就是要從輕從如果今天新法跟舊法競合的時候新法是比較嚴格他在行為的時候不知道新法的話那麼必須要怎麼樣必須要從舊從輕嘛"},{"start":6828.357,"end":6852.936,"text":"這最基本的原則可是現在他在二月的時候他根本不知道五月會修法他當時選擇這個緩刑根本就不代表說他之後他怎麼會知道他會因為這樣而被剝奪他的參政權委員的這個意見沒有期待可能性啊委員的這個意見我們予以尊重但是就個案這因為已經牽涉到個案了而且認定的權限是在我們的委員會"},{"start":6854.117,"end":6870.53,"text":"我現在就是要告訴你你們的認定有可能會侵害他的一個權利嘛你會再做一個非常嚴重的一個處理法法律的規定現在就有問題我現在就要開始去年是不是有這樣的案例紅本城的案例是不是在彰化有這樣的案例"},{"start":6871.891,"end":6895.961,"text":"記不記得你記得嘛對不對當時是不是有提出行政假處分是有沒有同意假處分有同意嘛來這個當中為什麼會同意行政假處分第一個它是屬於公法上面的爭議為什麼因為是當事人的參政權跟你們是相對人所以有公法上的爭議第二個對於當事人的參政權而言如果他這次不能夠選他的"},{"start":6898.184,"end":6926.193,"text":"參政權是重大的損害無法回復而且無法以金錢彌補對不對然後他說對於你這個相對人而言如果你現在讓他選他到最後如果你們認為他不符合消極要件你們可以怎麼做你的究竟是什麼如果法院有假處分的話我們會遵照假我當然知道你我現在就是要告訴你說你如果有假處分當然要聽我可是我們現在是看假處分的理由你本身還有救濟管道對不對什麼是救濟管道"},{"start":6927.793,"end":6930.255,"text":"你去年的抗告被稅高行政法院駁回對不對"},{"start":6955.667,"end":6970.488,"text":"誰的你的抗告啦洪本成的案件對洪本成的案件對啊你被駁回對不對本案最後他敗訴啦那是什麼時候本案最後來這個就是關鍵了去年你抗告被駁回所以他可以選選完之後你今年又提出選舉無效訴訟對不對"},{"start":6973.003,"end":6989.069,"text":"有選舉無瑕事章對嘛你今年才提嘛提了以後結果是另一回事但是重點來了重點在利益橫平之下你如果現在不讓他選他的權益就是立即而重大而且不可毀損的回復的青睞欸你!你們相對人是有救濟權的欸"},{"start":6990.427,"end":7006.919,"text":"你也有救濟權耶所以為什麼最高等行政法院跟最高行政法院通通都駁回你們的申請而你現在我們事件發生之初我就告訴你這種狀況你還執意而行連刑法都不可以重就重新重就因為這個必須要15號的委員會來做這個如果你今天15號判定讓他可以繼續選我就跟你說對不起"},{"start":7014.744,"end":7037.76,"text":"我就跟你說對不起所以嘛我就跟你講我們現在這個預見15號的狀況你們極有可能會不受理他的登記嘛因為你們認為舊法清法已經把他的資格取消掉而事實上他在這個新法資格取消到的這個時候他早在三個月之前他根本不知道他沒有期待可能性他的信賴利益呢完全受到侵害他根本不會知道三個月之後要修法嘛"},{"start":7038.601,"end":7061.431,"text":"我們是根據現行的法律的規定來進行審查的所以你現在看到你們現行法律要即將侵害到他不可回復金錢無法補償的參政權的時候你們兩手一攤什麼都不做嗎不是 如果當事人他有其他的救濟的管道的話我們現在就在救濟啊我們也尊重我們也尊重我告訴你現在這個案件已經發生了"},{"start":7062.391,"end":7089.751,"text":"你們現在中選會仍然可以在這個15號之前做出什麼樣的一個事情但是我要告訴你15號之前什麼都不能做所以你看看你剛剛只是不願意告訴我你的結果事實上你的結果已經不言可喻了嘛15號大家開會委員會做決議了我們才有一個結果出來我現在要求你們就是說你應該要讓委員會委員知道這個案例為什麼因為你們的權利是不對等的"},{"start":7090.612,"end":7117.397,"text":"你一旦現在剝奪了他的這個選擇權他的參政權事實上他當時沒有其他的可能性他根本沒有辦法預見三個月之後他選擇緩行這件事情會被取消他的參選資格好再來你現在身為中選會你是有救濟管道的你的救濟管道就是之後你可以有選舉有效的訴訟的提出而這個是可以回復的對他而言你現在不讓他登記"},{"start":7118.257,"end":7144.237,"text":"他就沒有了而且其實在這個最高行政法院的判決裡面講了很重要的一個原則是什麼還有民主原則也就是說王家珍自己本身有權參政人民有權利選擇他這個叫選舉權我們有權利選擇他結果他人民選擇王家珍的權利是被你中選會剝奪而剝奪的理由不是被我剝奪了你在認定上面基本上認定上面是有問題因為這個法修得太快"},{"start":7144.797,"end":7160.971,"text":"這個修法在今年的6月才經過立法院單獨通過那我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行的時候我們根據大院通過的法律來執行我問你2月的時候他怎麼會知道他選擇反行他會被剝奪參選權為什麼"},{"start":7162.999,"end":7179.816,"text":"你是不是要四個月以後你會不會下台這個在立法的過程裡面應該都會有所考量你不用去考慮立法的過程我現在要告訴你說你們現在即將要對撞即將就要發生這個禮拜就要發生你們中選會就要做出一個比刑法第二條"},{"start":7180.777,"end":7205.611,"text":"最新法定主義還要嚴格的這樣一個判斷從後去剝奪一個人的參政權參政權是憲法的基本人權你們中選會就會成為剝奪憲法基本人權的一個幫兇我現在就要告訴你現在最高行政法院也好高等行政法院也好去年的所有的一個判決還有都已經講出這樣的一個原則更何況你現在身為一個相對人你有救濟的管道你憑什麼在之前就不讓他選"},{"start":7206.383,"end":7235.371,"text":"如果有法院的確定的裁判我們都會尊重都會按照確定裁判來執行當然今天如果有行政假處分的話就會這麼做我現在是希望你們能夠在事前就能夠讓大家知道有這樣的一個案例充分的討論事前我沒有辦法事前我只能夠根據這個法律規定是怎麼樣我照這樣來回答我希望讓中選會的委員在開會的時候能夠充分知道這個案件做充分的討論有利不利的我們都會予以考量"},{"start":7236.916,"end":7264.064,"text":"這個案件沒有預設立場這個我們今天可以論辯這個過程未來都有可能會進入到憲法法院來憲法訴訟法裡面來進行這樣的一個討論為什麼因為這個法從現在個人的層次如果一旦未來如果說這個對於傷害人當事人的傷害是確定的話當事人也不排除一路會走到憲法這個解釋的程序"},{"start":7264.845,"end":7285.027,"text":"政績所以我現在要告訴你現在你身為中選會的一個主管機關你有可能就是這樣的一個可以說是扼殺參政權的一個筷子手這個責任我們負擔不起你就是執行人啊我們現在都看你依法執行不是我們來扼殺他依法執行但是就會扼殺了"},{"start":7285.968,"end":7303.675,"text":"二殺的參政權我讓你現在知道我現在要留下這個紀錄我現在要留下這個紀錄讓你知道說未來我們一旦進入到憲法訴訟的時候我們必須要在這個地方來思考如何保障基本人權這才是我們最大的目的是我們尊重尊重當事人的權利主張好謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝陳以新委員接下來請黃士傑委員質詢"},{"start":7321.809,"end":7343.879,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們是不是請法務部黃謀信長次黃次長請委員好市長好朋友好我記得你好像也是我們桃園的鄉親對你老家在觀音的白玉對不對魚乾泉市很近對不對魚乾澇乾泉市走路幾分鐘"},{"start":7347.34,"end":7368.901,"text":"應該5分鐘內就走得到了那今天有一個這個我很少在這邊講關於個案的事情但是這個事情跟我們共同的故鄉很大的關係所以我希望很明確的請你來進行一個協助那麼最近桃園我們的桃園科技園區在哪裡你知道嗎桃科"},{"start":7369.541,"end":7389.897,"text":"在觀音附近在觀音嘛對不對在白玉跟大潭對那麼有三家SRF電廠要進駐在地方上產生很大的爭議對你知道這個新聞嗎我知道那麼你也知道說所以已經引發了很多的這個抗議對所以現在其實不管是中央政府或地方政府都在重新檢討當初的這個決定"},{"start":7393.192,"end":7422.256,"text":"但是這個過程裏面也引發了一些是不是在裏面有弊案的一些爭議我先讓你看一下一個影片來放影片有沒有聲音當我在商業站裏扶梯後"},{"start":7424.333,"end":7450.234,"text":"當我在3月份披露SRF場在我們的桃科設廠之後陸續有兩家要來摸頭我在關於甘肅市關於火土面前向大家尊重報告所說的這個利益他說是前朝決定的我是新科議員我不要講"},{"start":7463.997,"end":7483.563,"text":"五千萬市長,你看得有清楚嗎?這個議員你知道是誰嗎?不曉得,我不清楚很久沒回老家了這個議員是我們現任的桃園市議員吳敬昌他就在你的老家觀音的信仰中心甘玄寺前面講了這段話請教市長,如果這個議員所說屬實"},{"start":7486.021,"end":7503.787,"text":"由廠商、總民意代表、企業五千萬這麼大的利益而且是一年了言下之意就是每年都有然後要求他為一定職權的行使或不行使這個有沒有觸犯刑法"},{"start":7505.205,"end":7532.381,"text":"顧問報告就抽象的法律來講如果他因為他本身是依法執行公務的人員他是公務員那我們的貪污罪條例上面對這個公務員行求契約或交付賄賂的話他法律上他是有處罰的規定我講法律上所以這個民意代表也是這個廣義的這個行使公權他也是公務員行法上的公務員嘛對不對所以呢他所描述的情節"},{"start":7533.582,"end":7556.968,"text":"是不是我們的檢調單位應該要偵查的?那委員已經問到個案個案上他那個就是說那檢察官如果說因告訴告發這時候其他情勢只有犯罪嫌疑那所屬的管轄的地檢署他可以依法來處理好那但是我知道你們法務部DR局也有這個宿攤組對不對那地方上也都有據點嘛對不對"},{"start":7558.488,"end":7586.532,"text":"知道這樣子的情資有沒有主動去偵查這個是關我們人民的重大的權益而且這個五千萬如果他一人任期四年加起來是兩億這有沒有重大的這個可能是這個搞不好破紀錄如果這個匯款成真的話而且他還意圖指涉說有其他的人有相關的這些情節他自己說他自己沒有拿"},{"start":7587.518,"end":7605.168,"text":"到底有沒有辦法我不知道了那他所描述指控的這樣的情節難道我們的檢調單位不應該主動來偵查嗎不應該請他去具體就說他連相對人的講得相對清楚那三家裡面有兩家去找他他只是沒講是哪兩家而已"},{"start":7607.12,"end":7624.504,"text":"跟我們報告那因為這個有這樣子的披露理論上來講他所屬的地檢署他知道這個有這個犯罪嫌疑的話按照我們刑訴法228條的規定他應急開始偵辦那前提是所屬的地檢署要做一個判斷這個案子是要啟動偵查那我們現在是不是可以請你們轉資這一個"},{"start":7627.305,"end":7650.701,"text":"所屬應該是桃園地檢署還有你們法務部調查局相關的全責單位就這麼嚴重侵害人民權益這麼嚴重的妨礙我們行政的官員以及我們的民意代表執行公務的連結性這種指控這麼嚴重竟然沒有任何的調查連請這個議員去說一下到底哪兩家去找他都沒有"},{"start":7651.926,"end":7677.606,"text":"各位報告任何人知道這個有犯罪行為的話都可以依法提出告發報告委員今天在這個質詢那我們也當作告發案來轉資所屬機關其實我們要很嚴肅認真的去查查包括這位議員所說的是不是事實以及他所意圖影射的後面其他人包含行政官員包含其他民意代表你知道他講完之後第二天我們官員有兩席議員"},{"start":7678.666,"end":7683.327,"text":"另外一位議員就被民眾問說他拿五千萬那你有沒有"},{"start":7684.741,"end":7709.292,"text":"我相信這個事情是非常嚴重的我們應該要很嚴肅的去看待它如果連這樣子的披露跟這個指控我們都不處理我們假裝當作沒看到那我們要怎麼去取信於人民說我們真的有在維護我們政府機關八名民意代表食食植物的公正跟廉潔性"},{"start":7710.228,"end":7726.32,"text":"是,委員今天執勤之後我們會把資料轉給台灣地檢署台灣地檢署會依法處理好,那也是因為我們都是共同的故鄉希望你站在我們鄉親的權益上面一定要嚴加來督導這個事情一定要來徹查,可以嗎?"},{"start":7727.616,"end":7747.683,"text":"地檢署我沒有權利處理地檢署假、免而言我知道你要解釋我們都檢查體系我知道有權利分離謝謝那另外還有這個剛剛很多委員也有提到這個中國借選那麼比較常講到就是假訊息那最近好像橋頭地檢署一個案件涉及這個"},{"start":7749.998,"end":7768.516,"text":"用低價甚至無償招待里長或其他地方人士前往中國旅遊請問有這個案子嗎各位報告現在事實上也不只橋樓地檢署有好幾個地檢署有類似的案件在偵辦中那你們有沒有確實的掌握"},{"start":7769.457,"end":7798.541,"text":"他這個所謂的邀請或是說因為他一定在台灣有相關的這個組織或是說有窗口來去做這樣的邀請不然你怎麼知道去哪裡報名各位報告那從各相關地檢所發布的新聞稿來看他甚至有些已經做這個具體的強制處分甚至有申請羈押的動作那羈押或是強制處分前提要有犯罪嫌疑所以就具體事證來講所屬的地檢署應該要有掌握要不然他不會有做相關的強制處分甚至申請羈押的動作好"},{"start":7799.841,"end":7821.388,"text":"我們是希望說辦這個案子不是說事後去補救如果可以的話選前剩下三十幾天這種行為我們要能夠主動去把它遏止所以我問你說大家有沒有去找到這個相關的組織因為你們蔡部長先從媒體訪問的時候已經說這個是涉及到有可能違反反滲透法"},{"start":7822.468,"end":7841.739,"text":"相關的這個法令所以它不只是單純的這個會選或是說什麼相關的一般的我們國內案件這個其實跟這個我們國家民主的這個獨立自主相當大的關係所以希望說我們的檢調單位能夠正式而且能夠去嚇阻這樣的行為"},{"start":7842.959,"end":7862.771,"text":"這個相關的新聞稿出來也要廣為宣傳跟我們啟動的這個反會選查查等等的相關的這個宣傳要結合在一起各位報告我們除了這個反會選宣導之外我們相信最嚴厲最嚴格的查會就是最好的反會經過我們嚴厲的查會之後它其實達到一個宣導的作用"},{"start":7863.22,"end":7881.606,"text":"好,那我就希望說你們在宣導上面這一種形態也要把它列入能夠讓我們很多可能不了解這個事情的嚴重性事實上很多地方的里長或什麼的他不知道這件事情有多嚴重我們應該要好加大這個宣導力度讓他們不要誤掏法網是好,以上謝謝謝謝,來謝偉"},{"start":7884.646,"end":7892.334,"text":"我們等一下在鄭天才委員質詢完之後休息五分鐘現在請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":7914.604,"end":7936.301,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請內政部部長還有演民會一將主委還有法務部還有司法院部長好在你的報告裡面今天的報告裡面特別提到"},{"start":7937.352,"end":7957.191,"text":"案養子女與本身父母之權利義務已停止。提案得由本身父母申請取得原住民身份,以《民法》上開規定,事有罕格。又談養父母與本身父母就養子女取得原住民身份事件"},{"start":7958.332,"end":7984.015,"text":"發生意見衝突時,附贈居然如何辦理戶籍登記、發生爭議,嚴建請再爭走。」這裏面還提到這個你的報告裏面還提到堂養子女得任意申請本身父母之戶籍資料因涉及本身父母之個資提供將影響其權益嚴建請再爭走要特別特別的"},{"start":7984.745,"end":8011.094,"text":"來跟這個部長也請司法院法務部協助說明協助說明這個我們看這個司法院4至第28號解釋文我先講部長針對這個條文我做過開了很多次協調會但是你們的同仁不敢做我其實可以做解釋的"},{"start":8012.113,"end":8019.084,"text":"可以做解釋但是你們同仁不敢現在在修法我們現在是立法修法"},{"start":8029.745,"end":8045.899,"text":"當養父母與養子女利害相反涉及訴訟時依民事訴訟法第582條規定其本身父母得待為訴訟刑可見雖在所養期間本身父母對於養子女之利益仍得依法加以保護"},{"start":8047.031,"end":8071.598,"text":"所以楊子女以本身父母之天然血親關係仍屬存在亦即楊子女以本身父母仍屬直系血親所以這個部分很清楚的部分如果我們從司法院司制第28號解釋的一開始的解釋文裡面提到楊子女"},{"start":8072.694,"end":8087.821,"text":"以本身父母方面之天然血清人屬存在。」天然血清是沒有辦法被隔離的雖然它只是潛力義務但是天然血清永遠存在故有之天然血清"},{"start":8088.988,"end":8114.959,"text":"不需要回覆當這個終止所養關係的時候權利義務回覆但是所謂的回覆者只回覆其相互兼之權利義務故有之天然血清無待於回覆司法院的解釋大法官的解釋已經這麼清楚了我們看憲法法庭111年憲判制第4號判決這是最新的"},{"start":8115.982,"end":8143.804,"text":"人之血統須先以憲法法律存在之自然事實先以憲法法律存在之自然事實人的血統所以原住民之身份認同權應受憲法第22條規定高度保障來原住民特殊的人格權利所以這個部分因為這個下午審查我是希望"},{"start":8144.764,"end":8174.07,"text":"司法院內政部請司法院跟法務部這個等一下就先協商是不是能夠因為這個部分涉及到這個人他自己要回復父母親本身父母願意他回復然後養父母也願意讓他回復結果你說不可以這是很重要的我們看這個"},{"start":8176.038,"end":8201.259,"text":"部長、堂、養子女得任意申請本身父母之戶籍資料因涉及本身父母各自提供,因影響其權益,言見請再以申走。」我們現在的條文是說成年了這個養子女成年了可以依個人的意願來回復她的原住民身份"},{"start":8203.117,"end":8214.36,"text":"他如果不能去申請他的本身父母的資料的戶籍資料他如何去提供如何去證明如何去證明現在重體在這裡啊你現在引用的是一個一個處理原則我們現在是修法我們現在是立法"},{"start":8226.238,"end":8250.005,"text":"所以這個部分我這邊時間的關係就不再請你們等一下我要拜託內政部我們現在是立法、修法過去部長我們原住民生物法民國90年公布施行我那時候是副主委我還是處長那時候還是處長我們有一條條文"},{"start":8254.079,"end":8271.221,"text":"原住民身份先的原來的那個民法法務部知道原來的民法規定重復性人出生了要重復性是原住民身份法排除民法的1059條"},{"start":8273.928,"end":8299.077,"text":"父母可以協議來到底要讓你的孩子要從父訓還是從母訓是從原住民身份法開始的後來民法才修正配合按照我們的一樣的意見一樣的條文所以這個部分這個我們要特別特別的另外就是說原民會的部分我剛剛講過"},{"start":8302.848,"end":8331.558,"text":"這很重要這條文一定要改所以等一下趕快協商主委你看一下你要看這個條文這很重要現行的條文看最右邊的現行的條文原住民以原住民結婚守生之利取得原住民身份不用申請取得他是自天然的事實人的血血統就是這樣"},{"start":8332.739,"end":8355.467,"text":"起得你現在的修正條文是得申請起得現在的這個在副政事務所一看原住民跟原住民的結婚所生的孩子他直接把他登記原住民身份現在變得申請起得這非常非常的嚴重所以這個一定要改為"},{"start":8357.52,"end":8386.963,"text":"得申請這三個字要拿掉等下趕快協商所以我們等下下午審查的時候才會順利這個部分非常非常的重要部長跟法務部還有司法院請回座我們看這個工作權保障法現行的條文是針對第4條是針對不計公務人員任用資格的"},{"start":8388.617,"end":8409.867,"text":"定一個名額的一個比例百分比現在修正為這個員包括公務人員包括公務人員的話而且你把併在一起公務人員我當然贊成但是你要把併在同一條條文的時候當一個鄉長、一個鎮長、一個市長"},{"start":8414.855,"end":8444.297,"text":"或者是在原鄉地區的不管中央的各部會這個不需要公務人員資格的他如果你這樣定的話他全部都用公務人員因為公務人員分發什麼他沒辦法做決定這些首長可以決定的就是什麼變成說不需要公務人員資格的以後都變成不是原住民了"},{"start":8446.178,"end":8474.931,"text":"全部都用公務員這個是對我們不計公務人員身份的這些這些相關的這些司機、駕駛、清潔工我們現在大概都清潔隊了我們現在很多都因為清潔隊他需要公務人員身份所以這個部分希望這個人民會能夠跟相關的不會再協商我的條文"},{"start":8476.252,"end":8496.289,"text":"像我的條文我提案的條文分開的你這個不需要公務人員資格的繼續原來的條文我們非常謝謝要把公務人員國營事業還有公立學校能夠"},{"start":8497.785,"end":8521.425,"text":"既有這些考試資格的我們另外定這是應該的然後我特別還增加什麼政府監助財團法人政府監助的財團法人我們當然可以我們現在是政府監助財團法人按照財團法人法政府監助50%以上政府監助50%以上"},{"start":8526.943,"end":8551.135,"text":"有的甚至百分之百哦!很多的那個草原法院是政府兼助百分之百的很多所以這個部分也請原民會能夠跟相關部會能夠協調溝通讓這樣的條文非常好的條文能夠通過所以這個部分包括我們整個"},{"start":8556.927,"end":8566.092,"text":"職員、既有公務人員資格的跟沒有公務人員資格的還是要把他分開 諸位可以我們努力去協調 可以嗎"},{"start":8568.342,"end":8596.445,"text":"我們會後再看一下相關條文來做處理不過剛剛委員最後提到那個那個財團法人的部分但是第12條已經有相關的規範第12條你是說你們現在提的嗎還是說現在的院版現在的院版你說財團法人公放在12條裡面放在12條所以我們在審查條文的時候我們再仔細看但是重點是在於那個"},{"start":8597.679,"end":8606.641,"text":"原跟公還是要分開好不好好 謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員主委請回座 現在請羅美蓮委員質詢謝謝主席 也請一將主委一將主委請"},{"start":8628.081,"end":8656.178,"text":"委員好各位好 各位去年台灣加入了這個由紐西蘭發起的原住民族經貿合作協議就是所謂的IPECA那創始的會員國除了有紐西蘭、台灣還有加拿大跟這個澳洲那這是一個國際首創以推動原住民族經貿跟投資議題為主的這個國際經貿協議那真的是非常感謝一將主委的這個努力"},{"start":8656.738,"end":8674.446,"text":"那我們經歷了一年多的籌備所以這四個會員國其實在APEC期間美國召開了第一次的夥伴關係理事會那在會中我方有提出了三個優先合作的項目那第一個就是"},{"start":8675.526,"end":8701.295,"text":"推動永續旅遊合作,帶動我方原住民族的經濟產業第二點就是建立官方對官方還有民間對民間的經貿窗口第三還有氣候變遷、公正轉型的碳匯對這三點本席真的是非常的肯定可是除了這三個之外之後可能還有很多的合作項目可以提出本席有提出兩個建議"},{"start":8702.675,"end":8717.22,"text":"除了這個旅遊還有經貿的合作之外其實我們還可以強化深化這個再生能源產業跟文創產業其實本期有提出這個建議其實也有參考過其實我們"},{"start":8718.82,"end":8725.225,"text":"原住民族產業與紐西蘭貿易之可行性的評估報告我現在想到竟然我們有這個經貿平台其實有很多之前我們請委外的研究的內容其實我們都可以在這裡來做落實北西哥有提到所謂的再生能源產業因為台灣現在也在積極的推行再生能源產業"},{"start":8748.561,"end":8750.662,"text":"紐西蘭有80%的電力是來自於再生能源其中有17.8%是來自於地熱去年我們再生能源條例在修正的時候其實我們也增設了地熱專案在紐西蘭來講"},{"start":8769.232,"end":8783.823,"text":"他的地熱其實有9個地熱發電區其中有3個是由毛利人所共同持有管理紐西蘭的地熱電廠特別在毛利人參與的程度是非常的高"},{"start":8784.523,"end":8807.003,"text":"那政府更是輔導毛利人自行申請籌建地熱的電廠那台灣的地熱潛能資源有40.6%其實是在我們原住民的傳統領域所以台灣是否能夠順利發展地熱其實跟原住民族的溝通合作有很"},{"start":8807.823,"end":8834.31,"text":"很重要的這個關係所以我們也是希望說我們臺灣其實可以透過這個原民經貿協議這個平臺然後跟其他國家的這個來取經然後跟這個紐西蘭其實我們可以做一個交流那我不曉得說一將主委在跟我們的這個會員國在以後呢有沒有想到就是說我們在地熱方面的我們可以來做一個交流或是做相互的這個投資"},{"start":8835.59,"end":8853.946,"text":"跟委員兩點的說明第一點是關於你一開始提到的IPECA這次在美國討論到永續旅遊的這個部分的議題那其實明年的世界民主禮物高峰會已經確定要在台灣舉行明年的試驗第一屆是在紐西蘭"},{"start":8859.31,"end":8875.3,"text":"第二屆在今年的上半年在澳洲第三屆在台灣是紐西蘭主動推薦給我們這個旅遊高峰會說希望台灣來承辦我們已經取得這個承辦的這個這個這個這個責任所以明年失業這是一點說明"},{"start":8876.981,"end":8896.291,"text":"第二點是關於委員最後提到這個有關地樂的部分其實我們這幾年跟紐西蘭已經有持續做相關的交流他們已經有多次來台灣來跟我們分享他們有關地樂剛剛委員提到這個部分所以像目前在台東的應該是在"},{"start":8898.092,"end":8916.64,"text":"原坪的紅葉溫泉同時有溫泉跟地熱這部分目前公所也正在做這樣的處理這部分我們也會藉助我們紐西亞的過去經驗持續做這樣一個地熱的發展讓原住民在再生能源這部分也有一個實質參與的潛力"},{"start":8919.241,"end":8936.787,"text":"所以我想說紐西蘭其實有真的有很多可以接近的地方那再來我還有提到文創這個產業像台灣我們也是南島語系的這個運輸的這個發源地那台灣原住民的這個多元的語言跟文化我想應該也是台灣的一個主流文化"},{"start":8937.287,"end":8957.123,"text":"那文創產業它其實是一個很棒的這個發展的這個途徑那像這個澳洲也就是這個IPECA的這個會員國之一澳洲的新南威爾斯州它有10個原住民土地委員會那成立了一個國家原住民設計機構就是NATA我們所謂的NATA"},{"start":8958.544,"end":8973.314,"text":"那我們台灣也有一個LIMA可是LIMA它畢竟是一個電商平台它跟那個NADA的這個性質比較不太一樣像那個NADA他們會運用原住民的這個傳統智慧跟藝術創作跟當代的這個設計進行這個媒合然後開發出這個商品跟這個作品"},{"start":8979.998,"end":9008.593,"text":"那他們甚至還會跟這個原住民的這個藝術家、設計公司共同開發出比如說具有原住民族風格的像家具、家飾等等那這個利潤大家都是像NADA或是藝術家跟這些公司它都是共享的那台灣目前還沒有辦法做到這樣我們只是提供一個像LIMA這樣子的一個電商平台那我在想說我們的會員國澳洲、紐西蘭其實他們對於原住民文化的這個重視是跟台灣是一樣的"},{"start":9009.193,"end":9024.455,"text":"那我在想在文創方面我們是不是也可以跟他們來做一個交互的交流請問主委跟委員說明剛剛你提到這個LIMA的電商平台應該是從去年就開始推動"},{"start":9025.276,"end":9049.833,"text":"但事實上我們也有實體的這個電商平臺已經把那個這個是它是一個電商平臺嗎這是我們供這個商家來做一個商品的一個展售啦展示等等可是我們對於這個設計師藝術家的這個提供的這個資源其實可能沒有像說澳中新南威爾斯這麼的深入我是這麼覺得是主委繼續我們這個部分其實"},{"start":9050.994,"end":9076.661,"text":"包括我們在鄭文昌副院長還在當桃園市長的時候他已經完成一個很重要的國際原住民產業的這個園區這個部分應該在明年就會正式來營運整個委員的這個有關文創的這個建議我們會把他納入在整個我們推動跟國際的這個文創的部分包括紐西蘭澳洲這個部分我們會執勤做交流"},{"start":9076.961,"end":9100.73,"text":"對我真想說我們都是屬於南島語族的這個國家我真想我們在這方面應該有很多的合作的這個機會我想說那我們原住民的文化呢主向國際也是一個我想也是原民會應該要來努力的這個方向尤其是我們現在有一個IPECA的這個平台我想在我們走入國際我想有更多更多的這個機會是我很謝謝委員最嚴敏的這個"},{"start":9102.01,"end":9127.352,"text":"這個IPECA的那個認知那麼深入而且都完全掌握嚴敏的地熱還有包括文創這個部分謝謝委員對這個部分的整個指教我們會持續依委員的這些建議來推動我們未來的整個原住民族產業的這個推廣OK 好 謝謝主委 原民會加油好 現在休息5分鐘休息後繼續開會"},{"start":9140.843,"end":9141.087,"text":"這個禮貌之中"},{"start":9478.787,"end":9482.568,"text":"接下來請莊瑞雄委員質詢謝謝張偉有請我們內政部林右昌林部長還有警政署我們黃署長來林部長黃署長請"},{"start":9501.8,"end":9522.988,"text":"部長跟署長有幾個問題要來就教跟建議目前我們各縣市地方警察局設置的一個標準我們按照各地方的警察局的轄區人口數我們去核算設置的一個緣額再分別去以面積機動車輛數還有犯罪率去核算緣額的一個增值以目前來看的話你看那個"},{"start":9524.369,"end":9545.626,"text":"直轄市 設置一個緣額省轄市跟轄區人口50萬以上或國際機場、港口這一些500人就給一個就對了那其他各縣市警察局人口以700人來設置一個緣額其他的部分我就不再贅述了但是你如果說按照轄區人口所管面積來做基礎並且以轄區內的犯罪率等其他的"},{"start":9549.449,"end":9562.812,"text":"一個來併營來做一個增加緣額確實是一個好方法可是呢本席認為這中間有一個盲點署長你聽聽看就是說以目前我們警政署你去統計轄區人口數都是要來重播要依靠去統計月報來做一個基礎可是呢民主就說林部長或是署長沒中你可能本地的基隆市長依靠可能在那裡如果他做沒中你讓他在台北可能"},{"start":9576.756,"end":9593.087,"text":"上班在這個地方全台這樣有的跑來跑去的甚至當然也有很多北漂族、南漂族戶籍跟真正的居住地其實它是不一樣的那本席是認為說以新北市來看你譬如說新北市的林考所4803萬594人但是根據你這個電信信息人口的統計資料裡面平日夜間的新北市就高達440萬4882人這個是一個相去甚遠的一個"},{"start":9606.816,"end":9629.125,"text":"有一段差距的一個數字那目前的設置規則裡面的一個盲點就是說如果你按照轄區的人口數你到了夜間的高人口數的尖峰時段的話你可能變成一個員警啊你要去平均照顧的人數就會上升當然也會增加整個員警這個一個執勤上的一個負擔這個就是本席今天想要來請教署長的就是說"},{"start":9631.909,"end":9647.72,"text":"我們目前原警設置規則有存在這樣的一個盲點在那我給你具體建議啦既然內政部現在都已經有統計資料那警政署是不是把它納入參考去做微幅調整來達到更好的一個平衡請教署長"},{"start":9650.782,"end":9663.115,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題我想除了我們剛剛所設置的標準除了人口、面積、車輛數、犯罪例外當然還要包含治安的要點要維護的還有特警的頻率這個要動員蠻多的人力"},{"start":9666.818,"end":9681.149,"text":"所以相對你看台北市為什麼他的警力數會比新北市還高一點但是他人口數還是少這個要考量到其他因素的一個編制那您所提醒的這個確實是一個盲點那我容我們來或又來嚴厲看要怎麼來"},{"start":9684.011,"end":9684.872,"text":"政府如何去制定合理的"},{"start":9712.828,"end":9728.662,"text":"那整個房屋啊的貸款的一個層數啊我看啊 柏丁你有沒有看到啊 張立豪你有沒有問到啊在會議裡在海黨的總統候選人提出了一個政見這個政見喊出了就是說購屋貸款提升到1500萬啊這貸款比例18%啊貸款前5年只需償還利息政府再補貼0.5%啊那"},{"start":9738.311,"end":9744.178,"text":"這個週末我看這個候選人會有一些肇事的孫子比較傳傳你的政見以外他在那裡痛批你說你跟年輕人距離太遠說責政黨完全不了解年輕人的一個痛苦這個我聽了我是很不以為然為什麼很不以為然"},{"start":9757.028,"end":9762.772,"text":"你說這個貸款一千五百萬投機款全部都政府來做這個負擔我如果做年輕人我聽起來會爽你知道嗎我聽起來會很忙我會說哇 這麼好啊都不用傳錢給人家買房子可是呢你把它冷靜下來以後你把它想一想這個是一顆毒蘋果為什麼它是一個毒蘋果呢假設"},{"start":9779.002,"end":9784.285,"text":"都在不升息的情況之下而且貸款的金額是1500萬以台銀你看以台銀現在來看喔台銀現在的房貸是2.0%2.06來計算前5年你去補貼0.5%的話就是說你2.06減掉0.5剩1.56"},{"start":9797.213,"end":9814.43,"text":"那每一期你要本利合本利合差不多就一萬九千五那個本當然前五年是零啦九千五那如果五年過後你補貼零點一二五就是二點零六百分之二點零六減掉零點一二五"},{"start":9815.111,"end":9819.254,"text":"就等於1.935差不多每一期一番看本利盒會高達6萬3千塊我以後想五年後提委你心碎有辦法這樣一直增加你知道嗎這個政策落實了以後我反而會擔心"},{"start":9830.521,"end":9835.224,"text":"提出這個政策的人年輕人會喜歡可是呢你讓他去沉澱以後他會覺得說我甘湯為什麼我說落實以後造成像比如說美國的金融危機就是一個次貸危機你前5年你19500大多數人我看都付得起年輕人也會開心但是這個第6年以後負擔超過是將近3.2倍"},{"start":9852.877,"end":9856.881,"text":"又轉售又綁10年。」這對我這個年輕人來說,我感覺說,對我身體是增加了很多,不然還會更大一個負擔。所以我請教部長的就是說,對我有一所主張這樣,我都很擔心變成說當沖,會變成隔代沖的一個風險。前5年我負擔得起,第6年開始負點3.2倍買房以後啊,"},{"start":9876.579,"end":9881.184,"text":"薪水若無淨價或我籌到地價賄或我有其他投資收入的話那個確實是還款還到老以後變成說現在在幫助年輕人其實也會造成很大的負擔尤其我更擔心的是什麼呢我更擔心的就是說你現在這1500萬你把它當成一個門檻我要中古屋出售"},{"start":9899.418,"end":9907.356,"text":"變相都會抬高會有抬高到一直搞不好我如果建商我拉我把他拉到1500以後我企出來成屋我企出來就要1500所以柏中你會看我是怎樣"},{"start":9911.506,"end":9935.782,"text":"我想任何的購買的行為都應該是理性的然後第二個你必須要考慮可負擔那衝動的一個購買的行為這個通常都是比較不好的那特別是購物這個金額的這個金額數很大那剛剛在講所謂的免投期款並不是不用還他還是要還因為總價並沒有改變"},{"start":9941.427,"end":9957.806,"text":"但是那個五年之後就會有還款的問題因為他會把原本你應該要還的全部加上來也就是你會比要支付頭期款你必須還更多的一個錢在總價不變的一個狀況之下在第五年之後"},{"start":9958.767,"end":9984.044,"text":"所以剛剛提到如果說是用1500萬免頭期款來算的話等於那個總價的金額大概是1875萬那原本你是要付375萬的一個頭期款但是如果是在這樣的狀況下不用付但是5年之後你還是要回頭還那個375萬的一個本金所以他的負擔其實是會加重所以你擔憂的是什麼"},{"start":9986.695,"end":9999.853,"text":"我擔心的是我們政府的一個政策必須要穩健那第二個是我們現在的一個方式都是鼓勵儲蓄然後政府最後幫你一把"},{"start":10000.894,"end":10027.772,"text":"也就是你有相關的一個優惠利率的一個提供那在這個你支付了這個所謂的頭期款之後第一個是掂量自己的購物的能力買適合的房子第二個是你有真正能夠還款的這樣子一個能力的一個配套那這個時間是很長因為還款的貸款期間大概是20到30年的時間所以必須要考慮到整個的合理的一個購買能力"},{"start":10028.152,"end":10044.018,"text":"任何一個負責任的政府你要看看你要解決的到底是什麼這一題其實我也要講的其實也叫做居住正義居住正義這個東西就是地方政府、中央政府任何一個政府它全部都有責任這就是怎樣你知道嗎?就是你應該地方政府應該做的事情"},{"start":10047.979,"end":10054.203,"text":"像譬如說社會住宅你新北市搞不好你的電影都要停頓了這沒搞到你現在開始要競速、要飆車我都很擔心這一題它會翻車啦為什麼呢你去把它看啦我們政府一直在強調居住正義就是說問題咧我們要捐獻年輕人及租屋主的一個負擔以社會住宅來看的話第一階段本來政府"},{"start":10070.313,"end":10082.228,"text":"在幫忙地方政府資金挹注還幫忙去找土地譬如說第一屆在台北市我們補助40倍的電子街端在110年中央政府投入了直接興建社會住宅我們從修法裡面來看這個我感受特別深刻我到第8屆的時候都沒有人在談這個"},{"start":10088.456,"end":10091.017,"text":"是蔡政府上來到第9屆我們開始去談那110、109、2017年的時候我們去修這個住宅法這增訂中央主管機關為新辦的一個主體就是說以前地方政府去中央給你錢、給你賺土地現在我們覺得沒辦法了我們把它修法中央政府直接去下場我們也可以去蓋"},{"start":10108.084,"end":10118.392,"text":"然後蔡政府上來以後我相信很多的一個措施包括你看我們連整個社宅法我們不斷的去做一個修改連社宅的一個弱勢比例我們從10%升到30%現在還要變40%電鍋也已經放寬了所以欲有未成年子女家庭富兒社會住宅弱勢的資格本來是3個現在都放寬降低到"},{"start":10132.583,"end":10134.685,"text":"兩個所以我是認為這條這條部長你如果剛才在這裡正面回應我都很擔心一顆毒蘋果但是一個很爽的政策其實我實在是"},{"start":10145.404,"end":10147.826,"text":"一直在問部長說要把年輕人這樣倒幾次我們也一直在說看可不可以創一個基金我年輕的我來簽字政府相對我們就幫補助多少理責的部分我來幫你做一個補貼那就是一個比較穩健的方式但是沒有想到 吼吼吼 你們給我一隻狗找一個全部都不用錢"},{"start":10166.865,"end":10175.733,"text":"這個講的齁中央政府你看你看那個中央銀行在做信用管制的時候我看那一波一波一波的這樣發首購你看他現在他買一間房子大家看你現在我們如果他買一間房子大家看我們75年了可以大家75年了你現在不是全部都不用建屋都來這個實在是要好好的去內政部要好好的去把這個利弊喔"},{"start":10190.766,"end":10198.81,"text":"真的要去講一下另外最後一個問題主席不好意思我們這個主席對我最好的讓我把這一題把他那個年輕朋友在擔心的一個問題很多租屋主我上次也就教過花次還有部長就是說我們從立法院第一個我幾乎"},{"start":10209.736,"end":10213.561,"text":"針對這個租屋的租屋主的電費問題第一個提出這個質詢我一直在追蹤這個問題後續我也提過好幾次就是說終於讓台電在去年初在帳單上可以增列了前年度平均電費來讓房東房客有一個依據"},{"start":10229.759,"end":10248.915,"text":"但是根據整個租客聯盟的租屋狀況的調查顯示仍然有高達4成的租屋主的電費計算方式仍然是按照房東規定的每度電費來做一個繳納這個普遍都是超收讓房客也只能咬牙去做這樣的一個接受那今年度呢"},{"start":10249.455,"end":10271.794,"text":"我相信也有更多的委員一起來努力這個問題向台電提出質詢本席也看到內政部上個月邀集各單位跟相關團體召開第二次的座談來談這個精進租電費的一個資訊及寄收的一個標準我要請教部長就是說你內政部連串兩次座談會裡面有沒有更進一步的具體的一個方向"},{"start":10272.979,"end":10301.449,"text":"我想這個會議是花次長主持的是他相關的討論的細節還沒有跟我報告是不是容我會後請花次長再跟委員做說明好 我是這樣認為啦如果說在這個住宅租賃定型化契約裡面你那個殷記載跟不得記載事項裡面你那個電費的一個上限為台電所訂當月用電的一個最高級距的每度的一個金額改為當期每度的平均電費然後呢並且在租屋的一個"},{"start":10302.049,"end":10306.071,"text":"租賃的一個定型化契約裡面新增房東電費透明的一個義務那將來講的話有辦法來額外來計算出來除了內政部以外臺電現在也不斷的在鼓勵房東來裝置這個智慧電表以及以單獨裝表的方式來計算各間的一個分租雅房的一個使用的一個電度也沒有單獨的裝置"},{"start":10325.82,"end":10329.302,"text":"計算公共設施用電的一個房東能夠要求他們來提出合理的電費單價的計算原則向房東來公開這個費用來收取這個依據我期待部長這個因為你說次長沒跟你報告有沒有這個我們把它解決掉啦我覺得對年輕朋友那些租屋主來講才公平啊"},{"start":10344.048,"end":10363.677,"text":"是,委員你提的這兩點意見基本上我覺得是合理那我們應該是可以在這個定型化契約裡面來做這個把它綠定我想這個對於整個的一個規範應該是有幫助的是,我覺得應該去貫徹的地方就是說阿不然我做房東我幫你帶電我就用這麼多而已我創造好之後我做好這個房子我給他連電又給他賺一條是,變相加價了是"},{"start":10371.261,"end":10380.485,"text":"好部長這一點一定要把他努力把他完成了好不好是好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝莊委員接下來請江啟臣委員質詢好請這個召委要請內政部長還有原民會主委林部長一將主委請"},{"start":10404.072,"end":10430.857,"text":"兩位好我想時間有限主要今天就針對這個土地問題土地問題應該都跟兩個部位有關大家知道這個早期臺灣的這些早一點的農民、祖先等等在山地上開墾但後來因為有些土地又列為林保地、原保地特別是像原保地這些"},{"start":10431.937,"end":10459.389,"text":"所以其實他們一路在訴求這個土地的權利不管是使用權或所有權這部分其實訴求很久那本行因為我的這個選區當中有不少都屬於這部分的這樣子的土地也很困擾那過去不管是內政部、監察院、原民會其實你們都知道這個問題或許我不曉得部長你了不了解但主委應該了解才對"},{"start":10461.009,"end":10486.287,"text":"那2010年的時候內政部曾經針對這個是否要放寬這個還我土地計畫這件事情有開會也有一些決議但後來不了了之那2021年7月今天財運就直接糾正內政部關於這件事情就是說應該要有效的去處理"},{"start":10487.867,"end":10506.344,"text":"那針對這個糾正案內政部當初認為說這不是我管轄的然後應該是有國有差案署又涉及到元寶地所以應該屬於原住民委員會不管怎麼樣到現在沒有處理啦所以這些人也只能抗爭也只能陳情也只能無奈因為"},{"start":10507.805,"end":10534.702,"text":"當然有一些人或許他不是真的在耕作那大部分有不少人他是真的祖宗八大這樣子下來他就在那塊土地上面耕作可是他面臨到什麼他面臨到說使用權、所有權可能通通沒辦法那或許有一些你們說我來修法讓你去租用但是包括這一塊到現在我也沒有看到任何的處理進度"},{"start":10535.956,"end":10561.265,"text":"所以導致這些人也只能不斷的抗爭不斷的陳情那有一些都已經好幾代了從他的阿公、爸爸到他現在這個產權各方面都還是不明的所以我想請教兩位就是說這到底是誰的事情如果涉及到這麼多部會的事情那為什麼行政院沒有一個政務委員出來協調勒"},{"start":10562.858,"end":10591.057,"text":"然後就放任這個事情在那裡然後你們面對監察院的糾正也不理啊這是2020、2021年的監察院7月份給你們糾正啊你們有處理嗎現在已經2023年了委員你提的是元寶地的問題對啊就是這一些元墾農他們的訴求嘛他們最早的訴求就是還我土地嘛對不對不要讓這個事情變成是"},{"start":10593.583,"end":10617.727,"text":"漢人跟原住民之間的變成這樣子的一個衝突不應該是這樣子他有他的歷史背景可是也不能因為過去的歷史到現在很複雜就把它丟著我想這也是為什麼監察院會去糾正你們的原因你們沒有處理就放任他在那邊拿到那個"},{"start":10621.758,"end":10641.648,"text":"主委你沒有你沒有接受接受過這些陳情嗎跟委員報告原住民保留地非原住民是有可以有陳租錢那因為目前山坡地保育利用條例它是明定"},{"start":10643.072,"end":10659.343,"text":"原住民保留地的所有錢遺傳是以原住民為限所以一般非原民的部分他的使用錢就是承租錢是還是可以的承租錢也不完整也不是大家都可以承租有一些他直接面臨收回"},{"start":10660.521,"end":10688.493,"text":"有些個案是因為我們現在所遇到的有些是直接要求收回他也不再承諸所以原民會之前我找來協調的時候我也找了原民會、民務局、內政部、國務參院都開過協調會啦太多次了我擔任快12年的立委這個議題不要困擾我們多久到現在你們沒有一個單位有那樣子的承擔補充報告這一點就是"},{"start":10690.073,"end":10718.596,"text":"你們說要修那個原開條例嘛特別提到那個白毛臺的那個案例不只白毛臺 太多了 包括和平地區以這個案例來講的話我們現在就是因為我們行政院版的原住民保留地開發管理條例的那個案子現在目前已經在立法院了所以就要解決這些問題但是有沒有 就前幾天是不是有院長來協調啊有協商啊 也沒有共識啊也沒有共識啊 所以這問題就代表這個會議也不可能有結果啦"},{"start":10719.758,"end":10744.375,"text":"那行政部門你們的勇氣到底在哪裡?你們的承擔到底在哪裡?我們會願意把條例送到立法院就是要解決這些問題這些不完全是立法院的事情如果你們行政部門沒有辦法把這些事情做釐清也不願意去承擔這些責任的話你在立法院怎麼可能談得出共識?不可能有共識的每一個立委代表的都是不同的族群你怎麼有共識?"},{"start":10745.796,"end":10770.836,"text":"對不對那你政府的行政責任在哪裡你們行政責任就是解決問題你要擔起來啊你們到底要怎麼做啊對不對你說可以有成豬也不見得大家都可以成豬喔有些不能成豬的是因為他是超限利用才不能成豬的超限利用歸超限利用大部分案例是超限利用我現在講的是都是幾十年來人家就在那邊開墾的甚至早期都還是政府鼓勵開墾的"},{"start":10776.395,"end":10805.219,"text":"結果他現在可能連一個農民身份都拿不到為什麼?因為土地問題要嘛沒有所有權要嘛沒有承租權沒有契約那現在如果要重新打契約的時候一堆新的規定又來了反正就是感覺就是說你們趕快走了不要在這邊耕作了啦我土地要收回啦這就是我的原住民保留地這就是我的林保地我就不讓你們耕作了太多了遇到太多這樣子的個案了"},{"start":10806.844,"end":10822.909,"text":"這些個案過去也曾經被逼到被逼到自殺的也不是沒有啊我也處理過啊所以才會有監察院這個糾正案嘛難道這個在糾正立法院嗎這糾正你們欸怎麼會反過來糾...來...你來跟我們講說欸躺在立法院這根本是標準的卸責啊"},{"start":10828.834,"end":10836.897,"text":"拖了多少年了那這些人如果啊主委主委你講話小心一點我可以講你們站在這個問題處理的立場上面如果還是這麼壓霸的態度的話你就是讓這些人不斷的抗議對不對"},{"start":10849.301,"end":10858.505,"text":"法律案的問題是在協商的過程裡面沒辦法達成共識然後行政部門你們又挑起了什麼責任勒難道這個財安署要糾正我們喔是糾正你們勒你糾正你內政部你內政部又推給什麼 原民會又推給國有財安署沒有答案啊到現在沒有啊不然你告訴我嘛 怎麼解決嘛"},{"start":10877.606,"end":10899.12,"text":"這些人的抗爭這些人的訴求你告訴我怎麼解決我是一個民意代表我不是行政官員我也不是部長我能做的事情就是幫他們表達他們的訴求他們的意見他們的想法他們就是想要工作他們就是想要合法的在那邊這個組裝商在那邊勿攏他能不能在那邊勿攏下去嗎"},{"start":10904.619,"end":10931.796,"text":"你不能把所有的人都打都一竿子打翻所有人好像他們通通都是不法的其實有很多人他也是合法在那邊啊很多的案例都是取得層出權對不對會後也可以給委員做參考有一些有但有一些沒有不然不會不然不會有那麼多人他拿不到農保他甚至在天然災害受到影響的時候政府的補助他也沒有資格拿為什麼因為"},{"start":10934.892,"end":10962.057,"text":"他沒有身份這裡面還涉及到很多其他的問題啦原案之間這我不要講可是我要跟你講的就是真正在那邊耕作的人他不見得有土地的使用權跟所有權過去因為政府沒有沒有一個法制化的管理所以造成這些土地因為被劃歸原住民保留地所以只有原住民才能夠有所有權對不對但是這些土地能不能賣"},{"start":10963.971,"end":10991.814,"text":"你們的規定是怎麼樣你自己也很清楚可是中間呢就透過很多私人的這些他們的不管是租啦賣啦這些等等的然後也沒有去管理然後就最後造成真正在這上面種種果樹的啦 務農的啦他也沒有農民身份他也沒有辦法拿到農保相關的農業補助他也拿不到 為什麼因為土地身份沒有得到"},{"start":10992.711,"end":11021.991,"text":"沒有得到證明沒有得到法律上面的一個合法的保障所以這是土地衍生出來它的身份問題我在這邊只是要求你們趕快解決這個問題而不是要你來這邊推卸責任那你難道你修了那個法這個問題就解決了嗎還有在這修法過程裡面你們所有的委員難道對這個問題能夠有共識嗎因為每個人背後所代表的"},{"start":11022.93,"end":11051.685,"text":"不要說什麼,連族群的利益都不見得一樣所以這就是有賴你行政部門你們要去看法規上怎麼處理能夠得到最圓滿的解決嘛我們要求的就是這樣子而已啊所以你不要在這邊推卸責任啦沒有推卸責任啦那你就回去看怎麼要面對這些抗爭啊我們會把條例送到大院就是不是推卸責任好,那你告訴我嘛現在也沒有辦法解決啊你那個什麼條例也沒辦法解決啊的確就是沒有共識啊"},{"start":11052.926,"end":11068.536,"text":"那沒有共識不是尊重大院你要去處理那些問題啦不是尊重大院阿不然要這個政府幹嘛對不對你如果這個政府沒辦法解決問題要這個政府幹嘛阿政府就是要處理問題的阿不能因為他複雜阿就不處理阿所以你也答不出來"},{"start":11082.95,"end":11086.971,"text":"好接下來我們請由玉蘭召委質詢謝謝主席我請林部長、黃明昭署長以及黃某信次長部長、署長、次長三位好"},{"start":11109.468,"end":11128.917,"text":"我看到一個擇新我看得蠻難過的因為去年8月發生的台南殺警案有這個叫做師大數學哥的他是在我們曹蕙潔跟童明成被殺了之後他在宣說台灣九城警察都是垃圾廢物"},{"start":11130.219,"end":11151.182,"text":"然後臺南市警察局這個第二分局就調查之後就函送新北地檢署偵辦但是新北地檢署做出不起訴的處分然後家屬申請再議也被駁回了結果駁回之後他就更囂張了就一副就是"},{"start":11153.083,"end":11181.434,"text":"好像是司法已經給他背書了然後就說他說兩個警察死了都是言論自由部長跟署長你們作為警察的大家長你們對這樣子的言論自由你能夠接受嗎我看到了台南市黃偉哲市長出來踏法了但是我想聽你的聲音我想這樣子當然的這樣子的一個言論當然是不當的"},{"start":11182.068,"end":11193.193,"text":"是不當的。」署長有沒有更積極的做法?我想他這個言論我們真的深感不妥而且非常的不高興"},{"start":11201.497,"end":11224.875,"text":"我做了一些研究我們辦公室我本來今天想要去按鈴申告我覺得他還有心事證可是因為兩位當事人土民城跟曹俊傑都已經都已經過世了曹睿傑都過世了所以只能夠由家屬我們署裡面有一個這個訴訟的這個基金我希望署長"},{"start":11226.192,"end":11239.884,"text":"我們要用我們的這個基金來支持支持兩位犧牲的同仁能夠幫他們贏回這個公道部長跟署長可不可以做得到可不可以答應做得到是"},{"start":11242.896,"end":11258.24,"text":"我這個家屬就已經提起我由律師提起注釋那制式的部分那個費用律師的費用我們警政署會全力來支持是但是我也很希望很希望部長跟署長今天就發布一個強硬的這個聲明不要看到只有這個黃"},{"start":11264.801,"end":11271.944,"text":"黃偉哲黃市長在那邊替警察講話不過兩位可以請回座我要問一下我要問一下我們這個黃市長市長"},{"start":11279.231,"end":11300.787,"text":"為什麼新北地檢署會這樣馬上就給他做一個不起訴因為我今天看到這個新聞他說去年台北市大同分局的同仁因為去處理家暴的時候被當事人放狗出來咬警察但是我覺得"},{"start":11304.349,"end":11306.272,"text":"這個檢察官至少讓我覺得還有一點還有一點點這個智慧至少是要讓當事人要認罪和解才能夠獲得還起訴"},{"start":11317.15,"end":11345.218,"text":"我們新北地檢署就這樣子很輕率的就完全沒有顧慮到警察當時是冒著生命危險而且這個問題一開始就是我們法務部矯正署在外遺間條例上面的有一些疏失我們居然都沒有一種夥伴的護庭的這樣子至少要做到讓他們認罪嘛市長你覺得嗎"},{"start":11347.179,"end":11363.774,"text":"跟我們報告,我們剛剛提那一個新北地檢署那個個案,他整個的,雖然檢察官做了不起訴處分,台灣高檢署也駁回了這個在意的程序,但整個救濟程序其實還沒走完,那現在申請准許提起自訴的程序,所以那個案的狀況會怎麼樣,還要整個訴訟程序進行,還在進行當中?"},{"start":11366.916,"end":11392.73,"text":"市長因為您跟警察合作也很久了我很希望你不要讓我們其他的這個檢察官都變成法將完全沒有辦法同理我們整個團隊在這邊所做的犧牲奉獻可不可以回去也加強一下我們檢察官們的這個在職訓練一下好嗎事實上檢察官的在職訓練我們不斷的在進行是好請回來接下來我要請州選會的李竺瑋"},{"start":11402.509,"end":11418.304,"text":"主委您這段時間也辛苦了不過本會在今年上半年通過的選罷法包括我們執政黨的莊瑞雄委員他都認為這裡面是有一些有一些這個"},{"start":11420.046,"end":11434.575,"text":"好像侵害人權之虞。」他自己都這麼認為我們公開都談過的就是未來都要申請釋憲的我們工作人員的選辦法剛剛因為陳以信委員已經跟你討教過了生效的時間是"},{"start":11436.658,"end":11449.83,"text":"是今年的6月6月嘛 對不對但是我們這個王家珍就台南的這個候選人王家珍他涉及的偽造文書案法院是在什麼時候宣判緩刑 您知道嗎"},{"start":11452.518,"end":11462.262,"text":"確實的時間我並不清楚沒關係是今年3月啦今年3月所以王家珍其實剛剛那個陳以信也提過了他沒有辦法預見他這個選擇他的選擇不管是選擇一顆髮型一顆髮型馬上就執行完畢了跟他選擇緩刑會有這樣天差地別甚至於影響到他在憲法保障的一個參政權所以"},{"start":11480.308,"end":11491.008,"text":"所以我們當然也想要了解一下我們州選會他如果在這個案子上面你們會有怎麼樣的態度呢"},{"start":11492.914,"end":11517.33,"text":"處理上對於他的身份具不具備候選人資格的能不能預知一下謝謝委員我想我們審查候選人的消極資格那當然是影響非常重大的到底這個候選人有沒有參與選舉的資格這個不是說我們能夠有什麼裁量而是完全必須要嚴格的遵守選罷法的規定"},{"start":11519.071,"end":11541.923,"text":"那選報法關於消極資格最主要規定的條文就在26條根據26條第9款的規定就是你雖然所犯的罪不是一款到六款一款到六款以外的罪但是已經經過法院的判決有期徒刑以上的刑確定了那被宣告緩刑"},{"start":11542.643,"end":11565.793,"text":"或者還沒有執行執行未必行刑權消滅時效等等的情況之下他就不具備參選的資格所以你認為他是不具備參選資格我只是在重複法律的規定是法律規定但是我們如果看到這個法很明顯的有違憲之餘的話難道我們行政機關按照我們釋字的第一"},{"start":11571.045,"end":11593.307,"text":"525號其實我們行政機關是有義務來做一些解釋或者一個裁量不是嗎我們選務機關是依法行政辦理選務完全是要有法律的根據尤其選舉是競爭非常激烈的一個政治的活動所以我們必須要嚴格的遵守法律的規定不能有任何的閃失"},{"start":11594.844,"end":11610.608,"text":"主委因為您當過法官在這方面你是專業的法律人就我一個半桶水的我都會認為說法律上面應該要有一個信賴保護原則的那在這部分當然我剛剛聽到您的確也講了說你們12月15號會有委員會來做決定要審定對不對"},{"start":11618.71,"end":11623.078,"text":"但是你開口閉口都是要以現行的法律的規定依法來審定"},{"start":11627.85,"end":11629.731,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11650.396,"end":11671.278,"text":"包括上下客、貨、違規、臨停以及騎樓停車都規定要祭典但是因為計程車貨運駕駛的陳情交通部在11月9日宣布暫緩實施交通違規祭典"},{"start":11673.629,"end":11699.12,"text":"也就是說當你們如果看到的看到說這個非常明顯的這是可能侵害我們國人的一個參政權有違憲之餘而且可能他現在也要申請但是要申請釋憲可能需要法官我們看到王家珍他已經在申請他的司法救濟了我覺得我覺得"},{"start":11702.082,"end":11704.724,"text":"中選會在有這麼明確的這個違憲之餘的時候你們在15日的這個委員會應該要考慮大法官解釋的意旨"},{"start":11717.276,"end":11743.614,"text":"要保障人權最簡單的且不違憲違法的做法就是你們透過職權解釋法律認定基於不溯及既往以及信賴保護原則凡是所有在新法生效日前就已經宣告緩刑仍在進行中者應該還是要承認他具有參選的資格"},{"start":11745.885,"end":11773.942,"text":"各方的意見我們在委員會裡面都會充分的討論都會充分討論都會充分討論但是最終最終我們就是嚴格遵照法律的規定是 但是本席剛剛也已經跟您提出來了交通部對於我們現行剛剛修過的法律他們覺得中間有不愛難行嘛所以我就知道因為您會說經過法律的授權有定定實施的日期"},{"start":11774.83,"end":11790.795,"text":"他已經定定是6月31日開始我們並沒有我們的選罷法並沒有這個規定他6月31日已經在施行中他都還可以暫緩了那我們這個中選會仍然就是執意的就用這樣子我不是執意我守法"},{"start":11792.416,"end":11818.553,"text":"但是我們法律上面其實如果違反憲法的話我覺得憲法應該要高於法律之上所以在這部分本身還是覺得非常可惜因為我不希望我不希望是人家還是會去惡意的去解讀說中選會是成為政治的工具因為我知道大家都很努力我想這個嚴重的誤會"},{"start":11822.196,"end":11834.264,"text":"還是請你們能夠恪守恪守這個法律授予你們這個行政材料也好或者是在解釋上面的權利那切記我們在那個事件的525謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":11850.888,"end":11853.469,"text":"接下來請李德維委員質詢好謝謝主席主席麻煩內政部林部長、中選會李主委今天法務部是黃長赤嗎還是黃長赤好那就麻煩"},{"start":11872.762,"end":11892.531,"text":"林部長、李主委、黃承次是委員好好來部長請教一下當然我們正副總統選舉辦理法20條規定在中華民國自由地區連續居住6個月以上而且涉及15年以上的選舉人年滿40歲可以成為總統副總統的候選人請教一下"},{"start":11893.411,"end":11909.682,"text":"這個部分當然內政部或者是中選會可以回答一下我們現在執政黨的副總統參選人蕭美琴女士她何時在台灣涉及的我們先不談國籍我們講戶籍先講戶籍你們有資料嗎請護證師來回答好護證師報告委員我們有查過他的戶籍資料他是"},{"start":11925.355,"end":11934.284,"text":"好來91年註冊戶籍所以在91年以前他在中華民國台灣地區是沒有戶籍的是這個意思嗎對不對"},{"start":11936.597,"end":11961.847,"text":"按照移民法的規定具有中華民國國籍的人他有兩種身份一個是有戶籍的國民一種是無戶籍的國民所以他真正申請戶籍是2002年對不對所以在2002年以前他沒有申請過那可不可以請教按照我們蕭副總統參選人的字數裡面他已經講到一個問題"},{"start":11962.867,"end":11986.205,"text":"他說他為了要申請中華民國的國籍不管是國籍或戶籍幾乎跑斷腿可不可以請教一下在這個部分裡面今天外交部是不是又來到底是既然現在內政部說他自然就有國籍那為什麼他會因為申請國籍而跑斷腿請問內政部有沒有調查或者外交部當時誰拒絕了他"},{"start":11988.547,"end":12010.505,"text":"因為我們在這部分裡面我們可以看到1993年民國82年蕭美琴女士就擔任呂秀蓮辦公室的實習助理在1995年就民國84年開始是民主進步黨駐美代表處的執行長到1996年開始是民進黨中央黨部國際事務部的副主任"},{"start":12012.671,"end":12040.89,"text":"應該這樣講他當時都沒有申請中華民國台灣的戶籍雖然你說他有國籍但是他都沒有申請好重點來了他說他申請國籍不管國籍或戶籍他現在2002他申請了戶籍因為你說他有國籍本期想請教的是在這裡面到底是哪個單位讓他跑斷腿是你外交部不願意辦"},{"start":12041.97,"end":12049.277,"text":"還是內政部要負責還是台北市哪個互證事務所拒絕他可以講出來嗎要不要講來"},{"start":12053.916,"end":12072.596,"text":"我想不是很清楚那個時候這個蕭瑋琴女士她辦所謂的這些相關的這個問題不曉得那個情境是怎麼樣子不過這個跟她的國旗基本上是這個我們在法律上基本上是沒有關係來部長我知道你當然會這樣回答"},{"start":12074.798,"end":12095.055,"text":"但是現在蕭美琴女士既然講她當時為了不管是戶籍或國籍啦她是跑斷腿了所以本席現在要求內政部也好外交部也好好好的去清查到底當時是誰讓她跑斷腿既然她有國籍為什麼不能申請戶籍"},{"start":12096.946,"end":12115.124,"text":"或者為什麼他沒有申請戶籍那當然是他的問題但重點是他講了他跑斷腿最後他是要想要國籍來參選立委這是他講的所以這個部分來馬來西亞部長我知道你現在答不出來但是可不可以請您帶回去瞭解一下"},{"start":12116.937,"end":12145.05,"text":"當時他為什麼需要跑斷腿甚至於參選立法委員才能夠來申請戶籍所以他特別講喔您可以去看他說他2002他當選了立委然後他非常開心的去放棄美國籍申請中華民國的國籍他認為他終於回家了好 這也不重要因為你們現在講的是他申請了戶籍他本來就有國籍重點"},{"start":12145.99,"end":12157.085,"text":"一句話就是當時到底是哪個單位讓他這個有國籍的人不能申請或者讓他跑斷腿去申請戶籍這個政績只能要嘴久"},{"start":12162.719,"end":12185.77,"text":"我想這個這麼多年來應該我們的互證機關或者相關機關的服務應該是增進了不過你剛剛提到那個跟國籍其實基本上沒有沒有關係第二個申請戶籍那個時候其實就是到他戶籍要申請的所在地的這個互證機關去做申請所以這個部分拜託內政部還有互證師可以去了解一下"},{"start":12188.746,"end":12215.271,"text":"當時這2002年以前我們當時的小美琴女士她跑斷腿去申請但是不得其門而入到底發生了什麼事您可以去調查嗎?願意嗎?不過委員會跟你報告這個應該跟因為來來來我講這個非常非常重要部長部長我講這個非常重要為什麼?因為這個牽扯到所有以後在國外出生的"},{"start":12216.431,"end":12231.077,"text":"中華民國國民來申請戶籍他要需要跑斷腿跟蕭美琴一樣的話本席不能接受這不是蕭美琴一個人的問題是所有人的問題"},{"start":12232.759,"end":12262.239,"text":"他31歲以前他沒有申請中華民國的戶籍你雖然說他有他自然就是中華民國有他的國籍但他沒有申請所以他沒有身分證他沒有中華民國的護照這一點外交部是不是因為你沒有戶籍但是應該是沒有中華民國的護照吧所以這個部分裡面不只是他一個人的問題我們現在希望保障的是所有中華民國的國民以後在國外出生"},{"start":12263.159,"end":12284.802,"text":"他都不需要跑斷腿來申請戶籍岡委報告現在我們所有的戶政機關現在都已經全國連線所以現在你不需要跑到這個所謂的所在地其實在任何一個戶政機關透過我們相關的一個申請程序當然如果是國外回來的話"},{"start":12285.843,"end":12297.195,"text":"還要經過我們移民機關那現在因為全部都已經全部所有的戶所都全部連線了那以前是並沒有所以這一點跟你做說明好 了解來 謝謝部長"},{"start":12298.53,"end":12321.24,"text":"那另外再請教一下來這個法務部長請教一下按照緩刑制度的立法理由說明是惡性輕微的被告或偶發犯出犯改過自新而設而且憲法法庭也解釋臺灣高等法院108年度抗治第890號的裁定要旨也認為緩刑是一個寬點"},{"start":12323.572,"end":12328.003,"text":"請問次長 這是寬點 被告也就是受刑人能夠主動放棄緩刑嗎"},{"start":12330.144,"end":12357.73,"text":"公務員辦法這是個判決他沒有辦法放棄的問題公務員辦法26條原來規定這些相關您都一定非常清楚但是最後一句話但受緩刑宣告者不在此限那今年當然這個我們立法院做相關的這個修訂行政院提出來的這個部分今年6月工作人員辦法修正所以在這個部分裡面"},{"start":12358.77,"end":12382.25,"text":"當然在緩刑期間或者是刑刑權因失效的消滅不得登記為候選人請到次長受緩刑不得參選這個在憲法保障我們剛剛前面講到的東西這個人民的參政權您覺得有疑義嗎我們當然今天不只是王家珍這個案"},{"start":12383.837,"end":12397.848,"text":"各位報告因為這個不是選務不是法務部主管而且這個法規也不是本部主管法規那本部當然尊重主管機關及立法的形成所以這部分本部沒有辦法有所評論那本市有一個問題"},{"start":12399.309,"end":12415.656,"text":"法務部在這部分願意去研究它的釋法性是不是願意來提出來相關大法官來釋憲法務部的立場跟我們報告這個主管法規的主管機關他如果有異議的話按照我們憲法送人法他是有權利可以做相關的權利當然主管機關是中選會"},{"start":12417.537,"end":12442.068,"text":"有法律上的意見本部當作全中華民國的法律意見主管機關我們可以提供相關的意見諮詢這是沒有問題所以這個部分當然也請法務部來研究一下好不好來主委請教一下要不然來換市長請教主委好了主委這個部分您覺得勒有沒有必要大法官再來研究一下"},{"start":12443.578,"end":12456.015,"text":"中選會的立場我們在候選人資格審定的時候完全是根據選罷法的規定來辦理但是你們也是當時修法的主管機關嘛這個條文其實當時在這個地方"},{"start":12459.52,"end":12485.442,"text":"這樣講不好意思不只我們國民黨其實民進黨也有很多意見但到後來朝野協商全部被一腳踹翻回到原點按照行政院版本就全部回來了但現在的確發生了問題所以中選會基於主管機關的這一個部分願不願意來思考可以請大法官再來做解釋因為現在是受緩刑的問題"},{"start":12487.734,"end":12503.282,"text":"我們作為這個選罷法的執行機關是按照大院所通過的選罷法的規定嚴格的來執行是好來主委您自己也法律人"},{"start":12504.679,"end":12522.516,"text":"犯下各式各樣的重罪執行以後都可以參選但是現在的輕罪連緩刑就是所謂的寬點都不能參選這真的其實在公平正義上真的有一些問題所以本席真的建議要來救濟最後一個問題來不好意思因為時間到了最後一個問題"},{"start":12526.019,"end":12540.662,"text":"那個高雄市政風處在茶會的時候當然現在有舉報啊就是劉秀鳳理事長甲介舉辦七十大之後民意為這個總統參選來助選啊那請教法務部好了這個法務部"},{"start":12542.224,"end":12559.82,"text":"市長有這件事嗎?你們有接到相關的情資嗎?跟我們報告那政風處他我們檢察官在查查會選的時候是民眾的檢舉告發也好或來自政府部門的相關的說證也好他都會匯集到我們檢察機關來做一個請示的研判嗯"},{"start":12560.461,"end":12579.656,"text":"好所以這件事情當然現在媒體也有報導的不小那所以高雄市增豐處真的有有這相關的一個情資是這個意思嗎那事實上高雄地檢營就這個情資他也分案在處理了在處理了是好當然在這部分裡面這個市長您也當然這"},{"start":12581.357,"end":12604.016,"text":"檢察官的權責但是在這部分裡面當然各個政黨尤其是政黨的立委其實也在相關參與宴會的現身所以在這部分裡面當然請這個這個真的要好好的來做調查千萬不要我們當然勿枉勿縱但是也不要讓人覺得"},{"start":12606.358,"end":12622.33,"text":"這裡面有什麼因人而異或者因政黨而異的事情發生我覺得都是大家不樂見我不會那檢察官會按照收集來請示他再做自己個案再做研判好 了解 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請吳立華委員質詢"},{"start":12637.669,"end":12654.935,"text":"謝謝主席,有請中選會、原民會、法務部,謝謝李主委、宜將主委,還有林部長請法務部,不好意思,林部長不用,黃次長請委員好"},{"start":12659.875,"end":12686.086,"text":"好 主委好今天內政委員會特別安排行政中立的專報我們也都知道公務人員行政中立法的主管機關應該是在權序部那因為今天也沒有來備訓所以我就大概問我們三個部會那首先我想要請教一下中選會李主委請您看一下"},{"start":12687.745,"end":12709.665,"text":"因為在上上個禮拜同樣的時間同樣的地點在我質詢之後聽說有幾位委員就原民會辦的一個叫文化健康站的實施計畫到底有沒有行政中立的問題做了一番質詢討論所以我在這邊請教一下李主委"},{"start":12710.866,"end":12737.416,"text":"這個文件站它的主辦機關是原民會承辦的機關是縣市政府協辦區公所、鄉公所那麼執行的單位其實是原民團體也就是所謂的協會那這個協會呢它會聘僱一些人員就是所謂的造福人員好 那我請教一下李主委這一些被聘僱的造福員"},{"start":12738.496,"end":12742.778,"text":"他們適用或準用公務人員行政中立法嗎?跟委員報告中選會針對我們選務工作人員行政中立我們是由所以我說今天選區部門來的對於其他機關的人員這部分因為不是我們執掌範圍之內我們尊重全職機關的處理"},{"start":12764.056,"end":12773.029,"text":"好來那請教一下原民會主委請教主委齁文件站的造福員適用或准用公務人員行政中立法嗎"},{"start":12774.717,"end":12800.614,"text":"因為趙輔演是正如剛剛委員所提到的他是文件站執行單位禁用的人員所以對顏明慧來講這個不是機關的聘用人員他是一個民間人員因為有人很關心一而再再而三的諮詢所以我也知道你們在有委員質詢關心之後呢今年的9月以及上一次質詢完的隔天隔一個禮拜你們也兩度"},{"start":12805.097,"end":12822.602,"text":"發函給縣市政府以及文件站。」我看到你們裡面的這些內容今天在專報裡面也有寫到就是希望說避免於開站的期間為特定公職候選人公開站開或協助拜票"},{"start":12823.382,"end":12845.607,"text":"也不應以文件站的名義帶長者去做候選人的競選活動然後非上班時間你們也要求應避免穿著文件站的背心去參加這些活動好 那我請教一下既然有人關心我相信你們應該有去查了有沒有查有沒有查上次提到的那種情形"},{"start":12852.494,"end":12879.992,"text":"這如剛剛委員提到就是我們已經兩度發函9月13號跟11月28號按照相關的法律的規範那有沒有去查因為我記得那位委員他有要求要查目前我們沒有收到任何的案子所以沒有查到沒有查到沒有查到那我們來看一下因為我是不會做這種事雖然我被指控但是我們看一下一段影片因為這是公開的影片"},{"start":12881.673,"end":12907.108,"text":"就是那一位委員主委這是文健站吧他帶著另外一位平地原住民候選人也公開穿著他候選人背心"},{"start":12913.832,"end":12926.075,"text":"他說我要選立委了我都是到文健站各地去報票這是他說出來的話我們再看下一個都是他質詢前的一個禮拜好"},{"start":12941.792,"end":12964.114,"text":"我要說的是我們也沒有人特別去在意這件事為什麼因為關懷長者我們也很高興而且真的要去追究他是不是公務人員行政中立法說實在你們也回答不出來也沒有辦法就辦那有沒有違反你們一而再再而三講的規定好 真的違反"},{"start":12964.835,"end":12979.811,"text":"我相信你們的做法也就是進行糾舉之後有可能這個協會可能就列入不適合的辦理單位好但是我要說的是多少年來像我們繼續看這是去年扶植的這些候選人你看"},{"start":12980.532,"end":12997.9,"text":"大每一個文件站發快篩長年每月去發物資我們也都沒有人為什麼去講這個不會去指責因為關心老人家嘛好事嘛雖然我沒有這個能耐能力沒有這個財力廣潔善言但是我也是祝福啊"},{"start":12998.8,"end":13023.493,"text":"因為多一點人去關心老人是好事啊但是我覺得不能因為在很多的縣市暢行無阻就因為在某個縣市我就直接講了因為他也直接講了屏東縣政府要求文件在員工輔選在國會殿堂直接點名因為沒有辦法在這個縣暢行無阻"},{"start":13024.844,"end":13033.172,"text":"然後還指控直接說伍麗華跟這些員工說不支持我你們就離開就沒有工作更糟糕的是還製作影片散佈你們怎麼會容許這些行為"},{"start":13048.015,"end":13073.446,"text":"我請教一下因為他有要求調查有沒有跟屏東縣政府調查啊有沒有掌握到有沒有人指控我不支持就離開就跟各位剛才我講過就是到目前為止沒有收到任何要求調查的案子是因為是沒有的我是我的個性大家都知道我也敢拍胸脯保證我是很客氣的人"},{"start":13075.66,"end":13098.768,"text":"我們知道分寸在哪裡我不會幹這些事所以今天的備詢沒有邀請到行政中立法的主管、機關、權序部所以我覺得也沒有辦法充分討論但是最起碼我想說的是文健站的這些造福員、工作人員他不是公務人員他享有參與政治及言論的表意自由"},{"start":13100.435,"end":13114.223,"text":"這樣子去胡亂指控真的要嘛還做影片後製散布要不然他的意圖就是意圖使某人不當選要不然就是意圖使那一些族人不敢發聲"},{"start":13118.438,"end":13145.825,"text":"我不太曉得說我們是民主自由的法治國家然後一再的在國會殿堂上演這種荒唐的戲碼還要指派議員在地方的議會也要去做這樣的諮詢我覺得原民會作為原住民事務的主管機關我覺得這個部分你們也要拿出態度那我其實想要藉這個機會只是讓那些開始害怕的族人知道"},{"start":13147.216,"end":13158.218,"text":"我們的行政中立法是規範適用的是我們的公務員跟這些準用的公務員並且他有他的強度不是一般的人民啊"},{"start":13159.546,"end":13182.596,"text":"憲法保障我們很多的自由我們也有參政權、選舉權即便是一般的公務人員他也有參與政治的權利他也有表意的自由我覺得不需要做到這個樣子那我們很多的族人非常的傷心非常的難過非常的害怕不應該是這個樣子所以我在這個地方那既然是公務人員我們就來講好了我們來看一些真正的公務人員這個都是新聞隨便抓的"},{"start":13187.631,"end":13199.26,"text":"有一個市長他參加某個市府的官方活動公開說自己正在參選總統還發表選舉的語言請問一下我要問誰啊法務部有無違法"},{"start":13203.519,"end":13218.895,"text":"有提的違法是指違反行政中立法還是指為什麼各種法那行政中立法的話那就是不是本部所主管的法規所以今天就不叫行政中立的主管機關我就不懂啊我們要討論這個法結果主管機關就沒有來我就不知道怎麼問啊"},{"start":13221.967,"end":13244.473,"text":"對那如果說這是有沒有違反選罷法相關的刑罰的規定倒是個案要去判斷啦那刑罰的部分倒是法務部主管機關沒有錯那刑罰假官他就這個個案他應該會去處理好像這個案例里長出面用里民聚會的名義去借場地結果最後是辦候選人的候議員大會有沒有違法委員提的還是行政中立的問題"},{"start":13250.447,"end":13276.281,"text":"那問中選會主委他是選務工作他不是我們的選務工作人員里長他不是所以就問不出來嗎要找全序部來是嗎其他權責機關那再講一個好了那參加官方的活動然後呢搭配當選的歌曲然後在那個地方大家公務人員配合喊動算動算有沒有違反"},{"start":13281.168,"end":13307.353,"text":"大家都沒有辦法因為都不是主管機關原民會今天我們有審查原住民族工作權保障法這個目的我自己的版本就是希望增加就業的機會讓更多的人受益所以我們希望去修不要限於約聘僱五類人員那個太低了我請教一下我們希望開放所有的職缺請教一下原民會可不可行"},{"start":13309.481,"end":13331.789,"text":"這個是我們目前送代驗的一個版本就是希望我們今天能不能禁用的部分不應該只限業務人員這樣的話沒有辦法提升我們的這個收入啦因為業務人員一般的收入比較低嘛我們希望有更好的這個保障讓原住民在公部門可以工作好謝謝齁那我們都很期待今天能不能出委員會"},{"start":13334.306,"end":13355.091,"text":"希望大院支持行政院的版本那如果這個法案修法通過之後大約可以增加多少的工作機會以目前行政院的版本的話可以再增加一萬三千多個工作機會那以我們原住民的人口數來講應該是用不完吧還是不夠可以充分讓原住民在"},{"start":13356.294,"end":13382.979,"text":"公部門的就業的職務類型不是只有大部分都停留在業故人員這個地方不是只有機工工友可以在很多的各部會各地方政府裡面有更好的一個升遷的機會好 謝謝那我也想要請教一下今天要審查原住民身份法再給我一分鐘請教一下原民會因為這次憲法法庭判決出來我們也必須在這個時候去做出修法"},{"start":13384.84,"end":13404.108,"text":"這個關於原母漢父我看我們的版本也都同意了就是冠漢人父親的姓氏再加原住民的名字對不對這個以前我們無法想像的也都通過了所以我想要請教您一下因為原住民身份法它連動的就是姓名條例"},{"start":13405.626,"end":13425.478,"text":"那這個姓名條例當然主管機關是內政部可是我想要先問一下園民會你同不同意單列原住民左雲在原住民族語言發展法裡面我們已經有原住民族文字是啊是啊既然我們是國家的語言是可以單列"},{"start":13425.858,"end":13450.191,"text":"對嘛大家都這麼認為嘛國家語言發展法都出來了承認我們的文字也是文字那麼請教一下內政部齁因為我一直在講過去質詢的時候說原住民身份條例跟姓名條例齁原住民身份法跟姓名條例兩個法應該是沒有辦法脫鉤啦因為是連動我們會被影響所以我想要請教一下好最後最後齁"},{"start":13450.791,"end":13466.636,"text":"那最後這個就是姓名條例第二條我在第三會期就已經提出修法版本我希望用臺灣原住民的傳統姓名得使用羅馬拼音或原住民族文字登記不受前兩項的限制那不曉得內政部怎麼樣今天也有排這個"},{"start":13471.691,"end":13493.49,"text":"加修法再來談好不好那我就是問一下態度跟委員報告這個行政院他已經決議朝單列羅馬拼音的方式進行但是後續還要進行下一段的溝通協調那等行政院整個政策拍板定案之後我就是要這個答案行政院已經同意單列了對不對好感謝謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":13498.809,"end":13506.052,"text":"邱承遠委員不在陳婉蕙委員不在陳亭飛委員不在劉世芳委員不在楊瓊英委員不在林文瑞委員不在廖婉如委員不在現在請陳焦華委員質詢"},{"start":13534.388,"end":13536.369,"text":"謝謝召委請內政部長林部長請委員好部長好部長我今天還是跟上次有質詢過的一個議題要來請教部長就是有關我們土地建界"},{"start":13557.028,"end":13578.224,"text":"那土地間界的話呢有一個案子因為已經訴訟然後有超過10年就是竹北的一個地震的案子那這個案子呢後來在上上禮拜兼委兼委有跟本席來"},{"start":13580.593,"end":13594.463,"text":"當面有跟他說明說明之後其中一個很主要的爭議就是在陳青仁蓋房子前到底有沒有見解那你看到這個圖是"},{"start":13595.697,"end":13624.922,"text":"房子蓋好之後去做保存登記的見解做保存登記的見解新建之前有沒有見解因為地政這邊給法院的資料是蓋房子之前沒有見解但是提出的一些資料監委看了以後有蓋房子之前"},{"start":13626.018,"end":13651.792,"text":"包括有90年的間接資料還有這個91年的間接資料那這些資料就是怎麼講呢我要跟部長詢問的因為現在給法院的證據也是地政給的然後呢如果地政這邊有不當的這個證詞好像"},{"start":13654.929,"end":13681.926,"text":"部長你現在看到這個案子就是竹北地震一直告訴法院說當事人沒有見解但是在蓋房子之前有90年有89年都有見解資料然後跟蓋好房子的92年的見解資料都一樣那因為就是如果地震沒有給法院正確的資料包括沒有給"},{"start":13684.068,"end":13709.339,"text":"監察院正確的資料導致我們澄清人的權益受損那內政部我們現在的機制土地建界的機制重測或者是圖解、數值化這些問題都很容易造成爭議所以就會訴訟所以本席接到非常多的澄清案例那我是想問部長這個要怎麼來解決"},{"start":13713.188,"end":13734.918,"text":"假如地政機單位求援兼裁判然後錯誤的證詞會讓我們澄清人的權益嚴重受損那我剛剛講的這個案子的確就是的確就是因為澄清人房子面臨被拆嘛那現在監察院監委願意重新調查所以本席是認為"},{"start":13739.243,"end":13765.519,"text":"當一個受害者他沒有能力去表達正確的資訊還有地政機關不願意提供資料的時候這個間接是會造成很多不幸比如說重測之後整個地界改了然後重測的時候沒有通知多數的人去止戒"},{"start":13766.826,"end":13792.471,"text":"而是由地政機關去協助紫界的時候的確很多地界都被改了那被改的時候有些人地就多了有些人地就少了那爭議就一直產生然後就是法院訴訟就案子這種案子就變了很多那我要講說這樣子的情況我們在紫界的時候要怎麼去修正去檢討這個問題"},{"start":13797.754,"end":13815.843,"text":"非常謝謝委員因為這個個案我不是非常的清楚不過第幾上面的一個偏差是的確是有的因為這個技術的因素或者這個年代登記的這個因素"},{"start":13817.324,"end":13834.617,"text":"這個狀況是有的那不過你剛剛特別提到這個球員兼裁判或是說我們的地政人員他不願意提供正確的資料這個應該是不容許的我們地政人員應該是必須要提供正確的資料才對"},{"start":13836.319,"end":13851.792,"text":"不過你剛剛提到的有好幾個問題包括說他之前是不是有間接然後之後是有偏移的狀況這可能都會分涉到不同層次的問題"},{"start":13853.153,"end":13878.992,"text":"那部長你剛剛說的是不允許那如果說我們怎麼樣有一個防避的機制畢竟建界也是地政機關法院作證也是地政機關那他當然不會承認他有任何疏失還有剛剛說的紙借的部分紙借的部分現在很多數像彰化就有一個案例二水那邊"},{"start":13880.714,"end":13882.295,"text":"第16任總統選舉委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":13901.704,"end":13916.865,"text":"去敷衍、去閃躲不願意面對事實那另外在重測的時候怎麼去修這個相關的作業指引或者是辦法就是你的指界應該至少要一半以上"},{"start":13917.865,"end":13941.797,"text":"那你才能夠進行重測不然你這樣的重測結果等於會造成另外一個大災難是 謝謝委員我想那個地震的測量還有它的指界其實我們地震機關都有相關規定因為地震師沒有到我知道我是不是我也再請地震師再跟你做報告那另外你剛剛特別提到說是不是有相關的一個規定或者是說指引需要來做修正"},{"start":13941.957,"end":13942.757,"text":"羅明財、羅明財委員不在"},{"start":13961.38,"end":13987.763,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束委員林文瑞、陳婉蕙、邱承元所提書面質詢列入記錄、刊登公報書面質詢及位及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會專題報告詢答結束只與該報告有關的人員可以先席"},{"start":13988.644,"end":13994.116,"text":"先行離席我們現在休息30分鐘用餐休息後繼續開會審查法案"},{"start":14161.131,"end":14164.725,"text":"全國各地各地各地各地各地各地各地各地"},{"start":14260.865,"end":14269.385,"text":"不用 那還有一份啊一個是工作那前面還有兩份"},{"start":16267.182,"end":16279.682,"text":"報告委員會現在進行法案審查原住民身份法審查原住民身份法請先讀討論事項一所有條文請先讀"},{"start":16282.233,"end":16305.535,"text":"本月內政委員會於111年5月9日召開第10屆第5會期第16次全體委員會議審查委員鄭天才等16人提案及委員劉兆豪等18人提案該二案之條文以及委員鄭天才修正動議二案及委員廖國棟所提修正動議均已宣讀完畢現在宣讀另外6個案子第一條"},{"start":16307.817,"end":16324.571,"text":"第一條行政院提案刪除第二項其餘同線型條文第二條行政院提案同線型條文委員郭國文等16任提案第一項序文在平地原住民後面增訂及評普原住民文字"},{"start":16325.151,"end":16347.792,"text":"令增訂第三款文字為三平埔原住民本人或直系血親尊親屬於臺灣光復前緣及在平地行政區域內且戶口調查部登記屬於原住民者增訂第二項及第三項及第四項分別為因前項規定認定原住民身份者其直系血親被親屬因依本法其他規定認定其原住民身份"},{"start":16348.252,"end":16362.892,"text":"第一項第三款評普原住民族群身份認定得依其語言、文化、風俗與記憶保存完整性分別認定之第一項第三款評普原住民族權利利益法律定之其餘同性行條文委員張宏祿等20人提案"},{"start":16363.553,"end":16391.455,"text":"增訂第一項第三款文字為三、其他原住民舉凡其民族語言習俗傳統等文化特徵至今仍然存續其成員仍維持族群認同且有客觀歷史記錄可記之其他臺灣南島與新民族並經其民族意願申請核定通過者為原住民族增訂第二項文字為前項所稱其他原住民之保障應另以法律定之不是用山地原住民及平地原住民之相關規定其與同線性條文"},{"start":16392.972,"end":16415.653,"text":"行政院提案刪除性行法第3條第3條行政院提案性行法第4條一列必修正為復活母為原住民且符合下列各款規定之一者得申請取得原住民身份一、取用復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字二、取用漢人姓名必以原住民族文字並列復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字"},{"start":16416.153,"end":16429.72,"text":"三從具原住民身份之父或母之姓因前項第二款規定取得原住民身份者其子女從其姓者應依同款規定取得原住民身份委員鄭天才等18人提案修正進行第4條"},{"start":16431.161,"end":16450.63,"text":"第2項後段增訂或從未具原住民身份之父或母之姓並列登記傳統名字之羅馬拼音者文字其餘同性性條文委員蔡適應的25人提案修正性行法第4條第1項修正為原住民之子女取得原住民身份第4條"},{"start":16452.372,"end":16474.973,"text":"行政院提案新刑法第5條一列並刪除第一項第二項一列第一項並修正為非原住民經年滿40歲且無子女之原住民雙親共同收養且符合下列各款規定者得申請取得原住民身份一被收養時未滿7歲二取用或以原住民族文字並列收養者之一所屬原住民族之傳統名字"},{"start":16475.814,"end":16490.514,"text":"會從收養者之一之姓第三項一列第二項並著作文字修正第四項刪除第五條行政院提案性行法第九條一列第一項修正為原住民有項列情形之一者喪失原住民身份"},{"start":16490.994,"end":16515.042,"text":"一、一前兩條規定取得原住民身份後應變更姓名、志位符合各該規定二、一前條規定取得原住民身份後終止收養關係三、成年後申請放棄原住民身份四、依本法中華民國110年1月27日修正施行前至第四條第三項規定取得原住民身份未於本法《圈年圈日圈日修正》條文施行之日起算"},{"start":16515.942,"end":16537.541,"text":"二年內取用或以原住民族文字並列原住民父母所屬原住民族之傳統名字或從原住民父母之姓第二項修正為依前項第三款規定喪失原住民身份且無同項第一款或第二款規定侵蝕者的申請回復原住民身份其回復以一次為限第三項增列原因款次"},{"start":16539.062,"end":16554.367,"text":"委員、成名人等16人提案修正性行法第9條將第一項第三款年滿20歲諸文字修正人年滿18歲其餘同性行條文行政院提案性行法第6條刪除"},{"start":16556.294,"end":16572.093,"text":"第6條性行法第7條一列第一項修正為為取得原住民身份當事人得申請取用或以原住民族文字並列原住民族傳統名字或從具原住民身份之父或母之姓當事人未成年時由法定代理人與書面約定申請成年後"},{"start":16573.695,"end":16592.478,"text":"依個人意願申請不受民法第1059條第1項第4項、第1078條第1項第2項及姓名條例第1條第2項規定之限制第2項三除,原第3項一列第2項並將前段文字修正為依前項規定申請取得原住民身份除出生登記外"},{"start":16594.113,"end":16613.115,"text":"委員蔡氏應的25人提案修正縣刑法第7條第一項將第2條第2項第4條第2項修正為第4條其餘同縣刑條文第7條行政院提案縣刑法第8條一列第一項修正援引條次並著作文字修正第二項刪除"},{"start":16614.266,"end":16630.655,"text":"委員蔡適應的25人提案修正《憲刑法》第8條第一項將第4條第二項修正為第4條其餘同憲刑條文第8條行政院提案《憲刑法》第10條亦一列未容未修正"},{"start":16631.897,"end":16652.45,"text":"增訂第8條之一委員鄭天才等18人提案增訂第8條之一文字為符合第2條、第4條或第6條規定取得原住民身份之要件但於申請取得原住民身份前被收養者與收養關係程序中得依第4條、第6條及第7條規定申請取得原住民身份不受民法第1078條規定之限制"},{"start":16654.992,"end":16671.288,"text":"第9條徵定第一項文字為原住民因其父或母之所屬、民族登記其民族別、其原住民族傳統名字或從姓、英語與其登記之民族別相關聯"},{"start":16672.589,"end":16697.062,"text":"先行法第11條第二項一列第二項必修正為前項原住民民族別之認定登記變更及其他相關事項之辦法由中央原住民族主管機關定職第10條行政院提案先行法第11條一列第一項未修正第二項刪除第11條行政院提案先行法第12條一列將前段遺漏文字修正為脫漏後段"},{"start":16698.636,"end":16708.805,"text":"為更正之登記修正為為撤銷或更正之登記第12條行政院提案憲憲法第13條一列並修正為本法自公布若施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":16723.915,"end":16732.806,"text":"本次會議法案審查順序依議程排列之順序進行我們現在開始審查"},{"start":16813.9,"end":16831.593,"text":"好這個原住民身份法這個修正條文好然後那個第一條第一條各位有沒有意見行政院版的第一條沒有啦沒有啦好那個第二條"},{"start":16838.451,"end":16858.395,"text":"第一條照行政院版條文通過有沒有問題沒有好然後第二條這個行政院版還有郭文的還有委員張宏祿就這樣"},{"start":16864.086,"end":16867.773,"text":"參考一下看我的條文可不可以啊"},{"start":16879.387,"end":16892.198,"text":"行政院列在第二階段因為這次處理主要是針對第一階段的憲法判決就聽你的"},{"start":16898.147,"end":16922.044,"text":"對第二階段那是第二階段對對那是三年內了好那就照行政院版條文通過那個麥克風這邊這邊都有麥克風你是針對哪一條"},{"start":16927.441,"end":16949.573,"text":"主席、司法院、國安省法官這邊提醒一下就是說第二條部分的話這個部分有經過那個憲判自17號有宣告說這個沒有考慮到其他的原住民的就是其他南島語系的原住民的這樣的一個劃分就是說這個部分可能就是"},{"start":16950.754,"end":16974.924,"text":"第二條目前就行政院是沒有修正那當然憲法法庭的判決指出說這部分要嘛是用修法要嘛是用那個另行立法的方式來處理那所以說這部分不知道說主管機關這邊是不是要用另行立新法的方式來處理其他的原住民別這樣子不是啊"},{"start":16977.525,"end":16993.713,"text":"我講一下我講一下可能剛才講得不夠清楚了我現在講憲法判決有兩個對不對今天要處理的就是第一個憲法判決要處理的你剛講的那個第二個判決"},{"start":16996.283,"end":16998.425,"text":"行政院列委第二階段審查"},{"start":17017.965,"end":17036.934,"text":"好好可以好好那就第二條就照行政院提案通過好我們看一下第4頁第4頁"},{"start":17044.106,"end":17059.085,"text":"現行條件是原住民與非原住民結婚除第9條另有規定外原住民身份不上司非原住民不起得原住民身份這個要不要說要不說明一下嗯"},{"start":17066.042,"end":17087.293,"text":"那這部分因為我們有關那個原住民身份善施的規定是已經有把它整理成一個條文了所以它原來的這個部分第三條的部分如果說它不符合那個善施原住民身份的條件它當然就不善施所以它其實並到另外一個條文去已經做處理了各位有沒有意見沒有意見都還有現行"},{"start":17089.35,"end":17111.265,"text":"現行原住民身份法第3條就刪除就照行政院要刪除行政院版的第3條還有本席鄭天才史拉高照的第4條還有蔡司應等25人提案的第4條"},{"start":17115.739,"end":17133.295,"text":"這個部分這個我在質詢的時候有特別提到現行的條文原住民以原住民結婚守身之利取得原住民身份然後第二項原住民以非原住民結婚守身之利"},{"start":17134.175,"end":17161.924,"text":"從具原住民身份之父或母之姓或原住民傳統名職者取得原住民身份不是得取得所以這個部分行政院版的第三條的第一項的第二行的字得申請取得原住民身份是不是我們比照這個線型的條文得申請這三個字就不用"},{"start":17162.944,"end":17170.496,"text":"然後這個就這個而已這裡而已嘛是不是也不是用這個這個嘛好因為這個部分這個會跟我們"},{"start":17176.971,"end":17202.366,"text":"憲法的判決跟司法院釋制第28號尤其是憲法的判決有會嚴重的那個……雖然這個手續上是一樣但是在文字上不要被認為說是倒退"},{"start":17203.466,"end":17231.005,"text":"所以這個部分我們只是把原來的條文的取得原住民身份維持其他的就照你們的條文文字可以嗎因為這個部分其實就目前的申請就取得原住民身份的實務上雖然說我們第4條是規定說是取得原住民身份但它其實還是要經過申請的程序所以院辦把這個程序就寫明在這個條文裡面"},{"start":17231.576,"end":17245.004,"text":"所以那個反正不影響嘛我們就維持現行的文字起得原住民身份就得起得這三個字刪除其他的就照行政院版的這樣也可以吧就是那個"},{"start":17252.83,"end":17274.828,"text":"得申請復活母為原住民且符合校內各種固定之一證取得原住民身份我再跟委員說明一下原來的第4條跟第3條最大的差別是因為我們把"},{"start":17275.929,"end":17281.171,"text":"這部分得申請後會讓兩個都可以來申請的意思因為第3條現在是只是講副或某原住民所以"},{"start":17299.798,"end":17324.916,"text":"也許這個跟飛眼通婚的這些小孩子他不見得會願意讓他的小孩子取得原住民身份所以說我們是說開申請的意思那這樣那如果是這樣的話那原來的原住民與原住民結婚所生之女那怎麼沒有條文啊"},{"start":17327.082,"end":17334.584,"text":"原住民及原住民結婚所生子女及原住民及非原住民結婚所生子女及非原住民結婚所生子女"},{"start":17352.03,"end":17380.46,"text":"給不同的申請條件他認為說這個部分有違反平等權的原則所以我們後來就是把這兩種類型都給它整合在一起而且要取得原住民身份的條件都一樣所以現在那個主委得申請這三個字拿掉完全不受影響第一個啟用父或母所屬原住民組織傳的名字"},{"start":17388.646,"end":17397.054,"text":"其用漢人姓名並以原住民族文字並列父或母所屬原住民族之傳統名字。從即原住民身份之父或母之姓"},{"start":17407.913,"end":17420.514,"text":"這個就是你回到原來的這個原住民與原住民結婚所生的也包含在這裡面嘛對不對沒有錯吧我講的沒有錯吧所以那個得起得得申請這三個字"},{"start":17423.154,"end":17448.932,"text":"主席主席我想請問一下第三條第一項的這三款一、二、三款我想問一下原民會這三款就一定還是得要申請才能夠取得對不對你還是必須要經過申請的這個手續嘛對不對不是說我不申請我自然就取得"},{"start":17449.773,"end":17474.9,"text":"是嗎?這三款取得的身份證一定要經過申請這個程序嗎?對啊,主席這個都一定要申請啊,你才有取得這個身份證。他說,現行的條文,我們先看現行的條文。原住民與原住民結婚所生子女取得原住民身份。他說,不是不是不是,他說這個還是要申請。"},{"start":17477.621,"end":17503.803,"text":"還是要申請在他們的不是不是你先聽我講本來是因啦但是他們在副級副級副政資律副政的實際作業上還是要寫那個申請表啦所以既然還是要寫申請表得起的那三個字就可以不用還是要寫申請表內政部表示要意見是不是這樣是不是這得起的三個字拿掉也無妨嘛"},{"start":17504.912,"end":17508.936,"text":"但是你放在這邊會被人家不知道的人會認為我們倒退啊嗯"},{"start":17513.39,"end":17541.944,"text":"他本來就按照現行的那個附籍的申請登記還是要寫還是要寫申請表嘛所以你當時你現在把文字加上去會被認為倒退啦這個是桿子桿子就法律的用詞上是一個一個這樣的一個狀況把得申請三個字就就作業上沒有影響啦內政部沒有影響嘛沒有影響啦"},{"start":17543.243,"end":17571.149,"text":"你不要...法律人不要聽他的法律人他會無所霸道法律人要聽我的我是尊重你好不好你不要真的以為以為那個你以為政電宅很專業沒有這部分他都問我偷偷問我的那功力...他功力還不夠好不好好 我們就這樣齁把得申請三個字拿掉齁你看他們沒問題了對對對修正通過了齁好主席主席"},{"start":17576.679,"end":17595.752,"text":"主席還有司法院這邊再表示一下意見針對第三條的部分的話我們是認為說還是要寫清楚就是得申請會比較好啦因為其實就算它有符合那三款的要件但是到底有沒有符合基本上"},{"start":17596.292,"end":17618.732,"text":"還是要經過行政機關經過申請一個審核的程序然後呢假如不管是準不準許甚至不準許的話經過申請的程序然後給他駁回他事後才有救濟的機會不然的話沒有講說得申請那事後到底要怎麼審查這個會影響到事後的那個救濟的程序是怎麼樣司法院"},{"start":17620.093,"end":17647.11,"text":"這個不是新的條文啊原來的條文就是不用得申請這三個字啊從以前到現在從原住民身份認定標準到現在一直都是這樣啊只不過是他們在戶籍這個手續上他還是要寫申請表我們也沒有反對啊但是用詞上這樣會嚴重到在比那個國民政府的時候還倒退啊"},{"start":17648.15,"end":17667.85,"text":"會有這樣的用詞這個部分不是新的東西是取得原住民身份這個東西是原來就有的這個是我們這邊的提醒當然如果說主管機關這邊他們也沒有意見的話我們也尊重他們好不好那我們立法說明裡面有沒有特別說明"},{"start":17679.485,"end":17691.894,"text":"這方面影響實際的作業,要去推翻它實際的作業。你來申請的時候還是按照我審查程序,我還是會審查。我們都沒有從來要去否定他們的。"},{"start":17711.611,"end":17714.412,"text":"第三條就得申請三個刪除修正通過然後第第4條第4條"},{"start":17734.281,"end":17758.23,"text":"第一個就是得申請這三個字就比照剛才那個部分現在是重點重點就是在那個本席所提的第5條的12345第5項第5項內政部可以接受嗎"},{"start":17761.855,"end":17776.511,"text":"本席的第9月的那個養子女之本生父母於收養後取得原住民身份者養子女於未成年時得由本生父母或養父母申請取得原住民身份"},{"start":17777.171,"end":17797.768,"text":"以成年者得以個人意願申請取得原住民身份前向養子女得以利害關係人身份依附集法第65條規定向戶政事務所申請本身父母之戶籍資料或戶籍等本因為他成年了"},{"start":17799.312,"end":17821.839,"text":"他拿不到本身父母他一看他的本身父母是有原住民身份結果他自己他要去申請的時候當然要你們的資料才可以謝謝跟委員會報告我是戶政司專委潘映中先跟委員報告第5項第5項的部分我們這邊是提出說"},{"start":17822.759,"end":17852.319,"text":"因為你針對於養殖你他未成年的時候如果他要申請原住民的這個身份他當然是要法定代理人來處理那現在變成說這邊可能會有第5條的第5項那他如果要取得原住民身份他變成有法定代理人未成年要有法定代理人來申請那現在變成說如果本身父母跟養父母兩個都可以的時候那會不會造成實務上面可能兩個有所衝突啦那這個是我們的顧慮啦那這個擔心說在第一線的實務上面"},{"start":17852.699,"end":17872.209,"text":"部署會面臨到說如果生父母跟養父母同時出現那他們對於這個原住民衛生年齡、原住民身份有爭議的時候要怎麼處理所以我們提出來這一點希望說大家再做一個討論那第二個部分是針對於說就是說你要取得這個生父母的這個戶籍資料的部分"},{"start":17872.489,"end":17891.837,"text":"因為他已經是收養了那收養的部分當然你要回頭再去取得正當在法律上面他其實就是他是跟生父母基本上就是有一個就是暫停這個法律上的相關的關係那如果說他要再去取得生父母的戶籍資料的時候其實報告委員我們在110年也有發一個文給各縣市"},{"start":17892.737,"end":17909.953,"text":"如果說這個當事人基於原住民身份法的相關的身份取得需要去拿到生父母的這些資料那護所就可以依照這樣的一個條文來做審查就是說如果他真的有因為這個原住民身份法必須要有取得身份的需要的時候"},{"start":17910.513,"end":17937.678,"text":"那戶政事務所他還可以依照這個情況來做審查所以其實實務上面如果有發生戶所他還是可以依照這個這個以利害關係的身份去處理所以這邊需不需是就是說如果我們先我們就是之前已經有做過相關的函事那如果說這邊要定那我們原則上是就尊重這樣子是是我們的大律師"},{"start":17940.945,"end":17968.461,"text":"大律師我先說我先說你一下因為司法院釋字第28號解釋文養子女以本生父母方命之天然血親雖然他被縮養了天然血親仍然存在故有之天然血親這個字都是"},{"start":17970.666,"end":17986.632,"text":"不受影響的所以甚至甚至那個司法院四字第28號解釋也特別提到當養父母與養子女利害相反訴訟的時候"},{"start":17988.564,"end":18017.152,"text":"本身的父母都還可以為了這個自己的子女的利益還是可以代為訴訟所以這部分是在司法院釋字第28號有這樣的一個解釋文最重要的就是說最新的解釋憲法法庭111年憲判之第4號判決人之血統先於憲法法律存在之自然事實"},{"start":18018.332,"end":18030.04,"text":"所以原住民之身分認同權應受憲法第22條規定高度保障所以原住民特殊人格權利所以基於這樣的一個情形所以這個"},{"start":18032.318,"end":18055.055,"text":"我才會規定說養子女之本身父母於收養後取得原住民身份者養子女於未成年時得由其中之一你本身父母你要幫他申請或是說有養父母現在其實案例都是養父母了現在的案例其實都是養父母"},{"start":18056.497,"end":18077.47,"text":"希望讓他的養子女取得原住民身份現在很多的個案都是這樣但是現在因為這個過去條文沒有訂得很清楚所以內政部一直礙於這個部分如果剛才這個內政部的剛才的意見是怕兩方意見不同的時候不然的話我們就把"},{"start":18078.973,"end":18106.451,"text":"得由本身父母這幾個字拿掉就得由養父母得由養父母申請起的原住民身份然後以成年的時候當然自己可以做決定這樣是不是可以做這樣的一個我知道就是其實這個意思法定代理人也是可以法定代理人當然就是養父母"},{"start":18108.428,"end":18133.34,"text":"還是要用法定代理人更明確了報告主席因為這個部分我們其實這個部分的條文我們是擺在第6條而且適用的範圍是更廣的因為我們也了解委員所提的意思就是說一旦被收養之後他想要取得原住民身份依照現行的規定他必須要先終止收養關係因為他不能改姓在收養過程當中他不能改回生父母的姓"},{"start":18134.741,"end":18152.459,"text":"所以往往必須要先終止收養關係然後才能取得原住民的身份所以我們第6條我們排除了第1078條第一項、第二項這是有關收養的那個部分所以它只要這個被排除掉之後"},{"start":18153.2,"end":18170.149,"text":"他為了要取得原住民身份他就可以去從他的本身父母的姓或者是並列原住民的傳統姓名就可以取得原住民身份對對對所以我們而且因為我們的版本對是那就剩下那個剛才內政部也也同意嘛"},{"start":18172.734,"end":18177.158,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":18202.199,"end":18218.154,"text":"對阿以前那個是把它放在那個火鍋裏面的好那個那個這樣把這個跡象放在哪裏就是第5條好好好好可以齁好"},{"start":18220.829,"end":18234.795,"text":"我們第4條齁就照行政案版來通過齁好那個董先生請一樣拿掉吧比較前面的那條齁好 確認確認那個第4條這邊第4條這邊"},{"start":18241.478,"end":18269.394,"text":"就是我們表示一下意見那就是看那個大院這邊的有沒有什麼其他的想法就是說第4條這邊關於這個原住民當然是學通主義為主然後認同原則當作一個輔助標準那在認同的表徵的這個地方的話其實在第3條這邊有有三款情形可以適用那第4條這邊只列了兩款那只是不知道說"},{"start":18270.975,"end":18296.132,"text":"這個第二款的情形是不是可以包含在要怎麼解釋它是第三款的哪一種情形還是有包含第三條的哪一款情形或第三條的哪幾款情形加在一起這部分是不太清楚啦但我也知道說這個到底收養他的要成立原住民具有原住民身份他的要件恐怕可以跟第三條做不一樣的"},{"start":18297.153,"end":18324.955,"text":"可以做不一樣的規範只是我們看條文會有這樣的問題現行的條文也是不一樣我們是提出這樣的疑惑如同我們書面意見所載的這樣子給大家參考第4條修正通過對第4條就修正通過有跟比照第4條就修正通過接下來第幾頁"},{"start":18328.746,"end":18350.295,"text":"14月原住民有受害情形之意的喪失原住民身份這個部分各位有沒有意見好沒有意見的話我們第5條就照行政院版第5條就照行政院版通過好"},{"start":18356.431,"end":18380.268,"text":"我們現在第17頁看一下第17頁第6條現行的條文第6條原住民離子之非婚生子女取得原住民身份前向非婚生子女經非原住民身份論明者上司原住民身份單約定存有姓或原住民身份非原住民子女此次非婚生子女經原住民身份論明"},{"start":18380.868,"end":18403.958,"text":"且重複信或原住民成為名字者、取得原住民身份,判處的理由是本條所定有關取得原住民身份之事項,略以修正條案第3條規定之無重複規範之。」好,各位沒意見?沒意見?好,現行法的第6條就刪除,就照行政院版一樣刪除。"},{"start":18405.495,"end":18430.486,"text":"然後現行的第6條行政院版的第6條本席的第7條然後蔡司應的第7條好剛才有討論到這個行政院版的第6條要增加這個原來的本席所提的第幾條"},{"start":18434.827,"end":18454.273,"text":"第5條的那個最後一項這個可以吧那怎麼樣加在第幾項還是在授權給那個內政委員會人員來去把它陣列在"},{"start":18460.097,"end":18481.462,"text":"我們先我們先討論後面的你們在那個誰那個你們你們的同仁去看檢查一下哈檢查一下哈我們先把後面的先保留好等一下他們文字幕好我們再來哈"},{"start":18485.458,"end":18497.329,"text":"好第7條在20月第7條符合這是行政院版是第7條那個蔡適應委員的版本是第8條"},{"start":18500.882,"end":18520.816,"text":"符合第2條至第4條規定取得原住民身份之要件而予申請取得原住民身份前死亡者其執理總用第3條及前條之規定取得原住民身份各位有沒有意見沒有意見好就照行政院版通過第8條"},{"start":18523.563,"end":18546.799,"text":"這個條次變更而已了其他文字沒有變好就照行政院版通過第8條然後本席的第8條之一符合第2條第4條或第6條規定取得原住民身份之要件但於申請取得原住民身份前別收養這個你們說明一下"},{"start":18549.02,"end":18552.462,"text":"這部分在第6條我們已經有排除因為提案的時間不同本期的第8條之一不宜增淀不宜增淀的理由是前面已經有了"},{"start":18572.873,"end":18579.38,"text":"行政院版的第9條其他也沒有也就是現行條文的第11條我先念一下這個"},{"start":18584.813,"end":18610.372,"text":"原住民因依其父或母之所屬民族登記其民族別其原住民族從有名字或從姓因與其登記之民族別相關聯且向原住民民族別之認定、登記、變更及其他相關事項之辦法由中央原住民族主管機關定之好 各位有沒意見沒有請教而已"},{"start":18614.57,"end":18637.479,"text":"請問一下這個第9條的第二款然後對應到說明欄3這邊有提按姓名條例第一條第二項的規定原住民族取用或並列原住民族傳統名字我是想要請問一下這個取用有沒有包含單列"},{"start":18639.045,"end":18667.166,"text":"這樣的情況其實因為單列或是並列它是登記的方式那取用的話就取用傳統名字所以取用就是單列嗎是包括包括單列嗎也會對那我是不是請教一下因為我早上質詢有關心這個原住民身份法聯動姓名條例有問說姓名條例的部分部長、院內政部"},{"start":18668.027,"end":18691.293,"text":"就是目前因為已經執勤沒有沒有沒有我跟你說聯動因為已經執勤8個會期了合格講起來沒有什麼聯動啊不因為會影響啊那因為這個單列會影響到人們所以我的意思是說那個有回應說行政院已經同意單列了他們要同意你們要看他的報告"},{"start":18692.406,"end":18693.527,"text":"執勤軍警消海巡人員投票權益"},{"start":18723.747,"end":18735.294,"text":"內政部今天的書面報告他們認為還是要下一階段好 等一下再談所以第9條各位有沒有意見"},{"start":18737.898,"end":18751.482,"text":"好,第9條就於行政院版本通過不是,這個說來有故事,這個第11條謝謝你挑選的第11條這個是本席開創的當初我是處長啦好,這個第10條"},{"start":18763.638,"end":18779.916,"text":"行政院版的第10條這個只是調次嗎?調次 它本來那個第二項要移到那個前條就民主別的認定辦法的那個部分調到第10條第9條來規定所以它基本上沒有動沒有動 文字沒有動"},{"start":18781.878,"end":18803.258,"text":"好,第10條就照行政院版通過然後第11條這個說明一下為什麼變成加一個脫落原來是移落一直看到這樣文字我們是配合那個戶籍法的那個規定這也是內政部給我們的建議說有可能會有脫落的情形"},{"start":18806.687,"end":18825.904,"text":"我第一次看到這樣的文字這個脫落跟遺漏有什麼差別啊複習法有這樣寫是嗎我們是寫脫落啦在複習法裡面嗎對22條裡面我們就寫複習登記事項有錯誤或脫落時因爲什麼什麼登記我們的用語是這樣解釋一下這個脫落什麼意思"},{"start":18826.209,"end":18830.755,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":18844.672,"end":18868.809,"text":"到底要遺漏好還是脫漏好以前的錯誤可以改從這個原住民生產法開始改因為這一條是內政部建議的那如果說基於相類似的概念如果說法條的用語能夠越一次的話那當然大家使用上就不會有什麼問題這樣子所以用脫漏的話應該也是可能會比較一次這樣子以前"},{"start":18872.933,"end":18901.522,"text":"你早上沒有聽我的質詢了民法後來是參考我們身份法來回去改的好 這個好 第11條就照行政院版脫落哎呀好 第12條好 這個行政院版照行政院版通過 有沒有問題好 還有第6條如何"},{"start":18904.239,"end":18931.112,"text":"打字上我們這個原住民身份法是在民國89年之後審查的然後90年這個三讀通過公佈施行然後授權涉及到90年1月1號"},{"start":18932.619,"end":18940.551,"text":"中央委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":18943.786,"end":18962.806,"text":"明天要重複沒有什麼協議是從原住民身份法開始父母協議然後要用你的孩子是要從父還是從母是從原住民身份法優先先通過的後來民法才跟著改"},{"start":18963.507,"end":18963.827,"text":"這個行政機關這麼久"},{"start":18991.947,"end":19011.824,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":19018.452,"end":19019.837,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":19052.405,"end":19054.026,"text":"新增第三項,一、"},{"start":19074.036,"end":19074.476,"text":"我唸一下"},{"start":19105.707,"end":19130.892,"text":"行政院版的第6條行政院版的第6條增加第三項第三項的我唸一下前項楊子敏一第三項不用楊子敏"},{"start":19132.932,"end":19155.592,"text":"一、逼向規定申請取得原住民身份者得以利害關係人身份向附贈事務所申請本身父母、知父及資料或父及藤本是這樣一、附集法"},{"start":19160.255,"end":19184.921,"text":"楊子毅得以利害關係人身份依附集法第65條規定向副政書所申請本身父母之附集資料或附集等本好各位有沒有意見好這個就是按照內政部的意見的條文來做修正好第6條我們就修正通過"},{"start":19189.602,"end":19189.802,"text":"好、好、好。"},{"start":19217.916,"end":19218.336,"text":"好 請先讀協商結論"},{"start":19251.174,"end":19268.693,"text":"宣讀原住民生命法修正草案協商結論第一條造行正義提案條文通過第二條造行正義提案條文通過現行法第三條刪除第三條修正通過第四條修正通過"},{"start":19271.345,"end":19299.545,"text":"第5條造行政議提案條文通過現行法第6條刪除第6條修正通過第7條造行政議提案條文通過第8條造行政議提案條文通過委員鄭天才等18人提案增訂第8條之一不予增訂第9條造行政議提案條文通過第10條造行政議提案條文通過第11條造行政議提案條文通過第12條造行政議提案條文通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":19302.488,"end":19311.12,"text":"那我們那個第三條跟第四條的補充立法那個補充立法有再請移民會提供那現在請先讀剛才那個"},{"start":19318.097,"end":19335.069,"text":"請問各位剛剛協商的結論通過請問有沒有異議好我們就本次會議審查通過這條文調適引述條文部分文字及相關法制用作權主席及議事人員整理好接下來"},{"start":19337.315,"end":19338.876,"text":"本案與議會討論時,由召集委員易蘭作補充說明。」"},{"start":19362.564,"end":19385.514,"text":"一日申法已經審查完畢了那現在就是跟姓名接下來是姓名條例跟那個工作成員保障法跟這個沒有關係的就可以先離席現在先讀那個討論事項第二案及第三案所有的條文先讀完畢後我們再進行協商"},{"start":19389.011,"end":19405.11,"text":"宣讀《原住民族工作權保障法》海巡政院提案共7案法名稱委員吳立華等18人提案名稱修正為《原住民族工作權法》第一章委員吳立華等18人提案同線刑法"},{"start":19406.107,"end":19433.142,"text":"第一條行政院提案將原住民修正為原住民族刪除後段本法未規定者適用其他法律之規定之文字其餘同性行條文委員吳立華等18人提案第一句維持性行法之原住民用語其餘同行政院提案第二條行政院提案增訂第二項文字為本法所稱原住民族地區只依原住民族基本法第二條第三款規定和定制地區其餘同性行條文委員吳立華等18人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":19433.982,"end":19461.371,"text":"第3條委員吳立華等18人提案同性行條文第2章行政院提案章名修正為穩定就業措施五聯繞國動等25人提案章名修正為禁用保障委員吳立華等18人提案同行政院提案第4條行政院提案修正為第4條各級政府機關各公立學校及公營事業機構除位於澎湖金門連江縣及原住民族地區外其員工總人數100人以上者經驗年住民人數不得低於員工總人數1%"},{"start":19463.011,"end":19486.896,"text":"前向鎖定員工總人數之計算以各級政府機關、各公益學校與公益事業機構為投保單位之每月一日參加公教人員保險及勞工保險人數為準經驗員、住民人數之計算以各級政府機關、各公益學校與公益事業機構為投保單位之每日參加公教人員保險及勞工保險人數為準並以整數計算未達整數部分不予記錄前向員工之投保薪資未達基本工資者不計"},{"start":19488.556,"end":19509.49,"text":"不計入員工總人數但原住民員工資投保薪資達基本工資二分之一者經用二人得以一人計入原住民人數依法合宜留職停薪、經資遣或退休人繼續參加工作人員保險或勞工保險人員凍結及列管出缺不補者不計入員工總人數但留職停薪出缺不補之原因為原住民者"},{"start":19510.49,"end":19532.958,"text":"紀律禁用原住民人數委員恐問及等22任提案修正文第4條各級政府機關公立學校及一國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業除衛彭湖金門名江縣外其員工總人數在100人以上者禁用原住民人數不得低於員工總人數3%私立學校團體及民營事業機構其員工總人數在100人以上者禁用原住民人數不得低於員工總人數1%"},{"start":19534.378,"end":19563.387,"text":"全國軍人、警察、消防及海岸巡防機關一第一項及第五條第一項規定金融智能住民得合併計算總額控管第一項、第二項及第五條第一項各級政府機關、公司、律學校、團體依國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業及民營事業機構員工總人數及金融營住民人數之計算方式以其每月一日參加勞保、工保及軍保人數為準經合定為出缺不補、源於凍結及留職、停薪者不計入員工總人數請四項規定依資本法中華民國全年軍業全日實施"},{"start":19564.207,"end":19581.417,"text":"修正之條文施行後二年施行委員廖國棟等25人提案修正為第4條各級政府機關公立學校公法人及公民事業機構除位於原住民族地區及澎湖金門名家縣外其員工總人數每滿100人應經由原住民一人前項所稱之員工總人數以其每月一日參加勞"},{"start":19582.678,"end":19599.126,"text":"勞工保險、公交人員保險人數為準經核定為出缺不補原而凍結及留置聽信者不予列入計算本法所稱原住民族地區指原住民傳統居住具有原住民族歷史淵源及文化特色經中央主管機關報請行政院核定之地區委員陳明等17人提案"},{"start":19599.566,"end":19615.76,"text":"盯上序文、刪除除位於澎湖、金門、寧江、縣外之文字其餘通信性條文委員吳立華等18人提案修正人第4條各級政府機關、公立學校及公益事業機構除位於澎湖、金門、寧江、縣外員工總人數100人以上者今年原住民族人數不得低於員工總人數1%"},{"start":19616.901,"end":19645.763,"text":"前項員工總人數以每月一日該機關購學校為投保單位計算參加公保及勞保之人數經用原住民族人數以每日該機關購學校為投保單位計算參加公保及勞保之人數前項原住民族員工投保薪資未達基本工資者不計入員工總人數及經用原住民族人數但投保薪資達基本工資二分之一以上者經用二人得以一人計入原住民族人數依法合宇留職停薪人繼續參加公保或勞保者員而凍結或列管出缺不補者"},{"start":19646.343,"end":19663.275,"text":"不予計入員工總人數但六指停薪出卻不補之原而委員駐民族者計入經營員駐民族人數委員鄭天才等17年提案,第一項序文前段修正為各級政府機關各公民學校、公民事業機構及政府捐助制裁團法人處位於澎湖、金門、龍江縣及原住民族地區外"},{"start":19664.673,"end":19689.242,"text":"第2項及第3項於公民事業機構後面增訂及政府捐助之財團法人文字並著作文字修正其餘同線型條文委員政廳採等17年提案增訂第4條之一文字自為第4條之一各級政府機關構公民學校及公民事業機構除位於澎湖、金門、南江縣及原住民族地區外金融需居公務員員任用資格者金融原住民人數應不得低於現有元額之1%"},{"start":19690.723,"end":19706.788,"text":"第5條行政委員提案修正為第5條為原住民族地區之各級政府機關及公民學校及公民事業機構其經驗原住民人數不得低於員工總人數3%但其所在地區之原住民族人口比率低於3%者依其原住民族人口比率經驗原住民"},{"start":19707.228,"end":19723.839,"text":"位於原住民族地區之縣市政府、鄉鎮市區公所,依其所辖地區之原住民族人口比率經營原住民,其二項所定之原住民族人口比率而中央主管機關免時能供告之第一項員工總人數及經營原住民人數之計算準用前條第二項至第四項規定"},{"start":19725.16,"end":19751.865,"text":"委員孔文集的22任提案修正為第5條原住民族地區各級政府機關公立學校及依國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業其經營原住民人數之比率不得低於員工總人數30%但上例情形依各款規定辦理依各級政府機關管轄地區學校招生學區跨縣市或鄉鎮市且原住民平均人口比率低於30%者不得低於該平均人口比率二鄉鎮市公所不得低於所轄之原住民人口比率"},{"start":19752.245,"end":19776.635,"text":"其中原住民人口比率逾70%者不得低於70%與原住民族地區各級政府機關及依《國營事業法》第3條所認定之國營事業經以業務性質特殊、服務對象廣泛其單位定額經營總人數之計算範圍得於本法施行細則令定之第一項比率應每5年進行檢討本條之規定自本法《中華民國圈內圈域圈域修正之條文》施行後2年施行"},{"start":19777.515,"end":19786.648,"text":"五連繞國動等25人提案修正為第5條原住民族地區各級政府機關、公立學校公法人及公民事業機構經用非具公教營運用資格者其人數總額應有35%以上為原住民經用須具公教營運用資格者其人數總額應有60%以上為原住民"},{"start":19794.139,"end":19812.833,"text":"但商政市區公所其人員金融比率不得低於首瑕之原住民人口比率其中原住民人口比率逾70%者其金融原住民人數之比率不得低於70%前項所稱人數總額以其每月一日參加勞工保險、公交人員保險人數為準金和電源儲缺不補由於凍結節流之停薪者不予列入計算"},{"start":19813.433,"end":19829.582,"text":"第1項及前條應經營原住民人數需以本法施行後卻年內完成但現有緣為未達比率者4員工出缺後再行經用委員吳麗華等18人提案修正為第5條原住民族地區之各級政府機關公立學校及公立事業機構經營原住民族人數不得低於員工總人數3%但縣市政府鄉鎮市區公所"},{"start":19833.664,"end":19855.984,"text":"其所辖地區之原住民族人口比率金融低於3%者以3%計原住民族人口比率每5年由中央主管機關公告之第一項員工總人數計計算準用前條第二項至第5項規定委員鄭天才等17年提案第一項蓄員及第二項與公民事業機構後面增幣及政府捐助之財團法人文字第三項中斷之2%修正為3%刪除第4項其餘同線型條文第6條"},{"start":19860.948,"end":19878.681,"text":"委員會立法等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘頭線性條文第3章委員會立法等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族合作社第7條委員會立法等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘頭線性條文第8條行政院提案刪除"},{"start":19879.441,"end":19908.318,"text":"委員孔文吉等22人提案委員廖國棟等25人提案及委員鄭天才等17人提案刪除後段但自本法施行之日起6年內應免徵所得稅之營業及營業稅文次其餘同線性條文委員武麗華等18人提案將原住民文次修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文第9條委員武麗華等18人提案將原住民文次修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文第10條委員武麗華等18人提案將原住民文次修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文"},{"start":19909.318,"end":19929.53,"text":"第4章行政委員提案章明修正為政府採購促進就業措施委員廖國棟等25人提案章明修正為政府採購保障委員吳立華等18人提案章明修正為政府採購輔助就業措施第11條行政委員提案將各級政府機關文字修正為各級政府機關購原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同性型條文"},{"start":19930.12,"end":19956.722,"text":"委員懇文集的20任提案原住民文字修正為原住民族增訂第二項文字為各級政府機關、公立學校及依國營事業法第3條所認定之國營事業辦理工高金額十分之一以下之採購因優先競洽原住民個人機構法人或團體不受政府採購法第49條之限制但原住民個人機構法人或團體無法承包者不在此限其餘同性行條文委員繞國動的25任提案於公立學校後面增訂公法人文字"},{"start":19957.182,"end":19979.935,"text":"原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同性型條文委員陳瑩等16人提案增訂第二項文字為前項公告金額由主管機關定期檢討公告其餘同性型條文委員武麗華等18人提案同行政院提案委員鄭天才等17人提案強調文字修正為各級政府機關購、公立學校、公民事業機構及政府捐助製裁團法人其餘同性正面提案"},{"start":19980.735,"end":20001.245,"text":"第12條,行政院提案第一項後段增訂,但得標廠商為各級政府機關、各公立學校及公立事業機構者不在此限第二項後段修正為其補助條件期間數額及相關事項之辦法由中央聯邦主管機關定之增訂第三項文字為第一項員工總人數及經營原住民人數之計算準用第4條第二項至第4項規定"},{"start":20003.906,"end":20029.806,"text":"現行條例第3項以略第4項並修正為得標廠商經營原住民元數未達第1項規定比率者應就經用差額人數向原住民族綜合發展基金及就業基金繳納代金增訂第5項文字為前項代金供差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算不足1月者每日以每月基本工資除以30日計但得標廠商應繳納代金經營超過政府採購決標經營一定比率者得與著減其一定比率減輕機制"},{"start":20031.307,"end":20049.031,"text":"金額計算方式及其他相關事項及辦法由中央主管機關定之其餘同性行條文委員要活動的25人提案第三項會議案增訂得標廠商需繳納代金金額如超過政府採購金額者的減輕機制其減輕機制由中央主管機關定之文字其餘同性行條文"},{"start":20049.511,"end":20073.277,"text":"委員吳立華等18人提案第三項修正為前項員工總人數字計算準用第4條第二項至第5項規定其餘同線型條文第5章委員吳立華等18人提案章民同線型法第13條行政院提案刪除第一項第二項一列第一項並將公民營機構文字修正為公民營事業機構原住民文字修正為原住民族增訂第二項文字為"},{"start":20073.997,"end":20100.563,"text":"為增進於原住民族長期穩定工作機會政府應鼓勵私立學校、法人、團體及民營事業機構經營原住民及與同性情條文委員賴國棟等25人提案將第二項公民營機構文資修正為公民營事業機構及與同性情條文委員吳麗華等18人提案第一項同行政院提案第二項修正為中央勞動主管機關對直轄市縣市轄區內原住民人口達2萬人以上者應設立會委託直轄市縣市主管機關設立"},{"start":20102.123,"end":20126.472,"text":"原住民族特殊文化之原住民公立就業服務機構第14條行政院提案第一項原住民文字修正為原住民族第二項各級政府機關文字修正為各級政府機關購令著作文字修正其餘同性行條文委員廖國棟等25人提案於公立學校後面增訂公法人文字其餘同性行條文委員伍麗華等18人提案第一項原住民文字修正為原住民族"},{"start":20126.912,"end":20143.511,"text":"第二項修正為各級政府機關公益學校及公益事業機構依第4條及第5條規定經用原住民族時得函請各級主管機關推介當各級政府機關公益學校及公益事業機構之法定義而無法以推介方式禁用者不得函請各級主管機關推介其餘同現行條文"},{"start":20144.252,"end":20167.999,"text":"第15條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同線型條文第16條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文字修正為原住民族其餘同線型條文第17條委員吳立華等18人提案同線型條文第18條行政院提案將非志願文字修正為非志願其餘同線型條文委員孔文吉等22人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":20169.881,"end":20188.853,"text":"委員五立法等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同行政院提案第19條委員五立法等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同線性條文第6章行政院提案章明修正為勞資專業處理及基金管理委員五立法等18人提案同行政院提案"},{"start":20189.333,"end":20216.745,"text":"第20條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同縣型條文第21條委員吳立華等18人提案同縣型條文第22條委員吳立華等18人提案同縣型條文第23條委員吳立華等18人提案將原住民文資修正為原住民族其餘同縣型條文第24條行政院提案修正為第24條各級政府機關構公民學校及公民事業機構金融原住民人數未達第4條第1項第5條第1項或第2項所定比例者"},{"start":20217.205,"end":20239.185,"text":"每月應就經用X2元數向原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金繳納代金前項代金X2元數乘以每月基本工資計算不足1月者每日以每月基本工資除以35計各級政府機關、各公民學校及公民事業機構應經用困難至未達第4條第1項、第5條第1項或第2項所定比率者等人員繳納代金其經用困難之認定基準"},{"start":20239.705,"end":20268.16,"text":"待經營演員繳納期間程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之各級政府機關構、學校、法人、團體及事業機構、金融、原住民情形及優者應以獎勵及獎勵對象基準方式及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之中央主管機關會辦理待經收繳及合算相關事宜得請各級政府機關構、學校、法人、團體及事業機構提供留職、填薪、資遣、退休、援兒、凍結、夜館、出缺、不補、公教育員、保險及勞工保險等資料"},{"start":20269.982,"end":20289.974,"text":"該機關、各學校、法人、團體或事業機構無正當理由不得拒絕。」委員孔文吉等22人提案修正委第24條各級政府、機關、公司、立學校、團體及公司運營事業機構經營原住民之人書未達第4條或第5條所定比例者因每月繳納代金前項制代金差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算"},{"start":20291.83,"end":20307.745,"text":"對於經由原住民倡出規定比例之私立學校團體及民營事業機構並得以原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金合法獎勵金其經由最高按鈔額經由年數乘以每月基本工資三分之二計算前項獎勵條件方式及其他相關事宜之辦理由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":20308.926,"end":20323.803,"text":"五元廖國棟等25人提案修正為第24條各級政府機關公益學校公法人及公益事業機構金融原住民之人數未達第4條及第5條所定應金融之原住民人數者每月應向原住民族綜合發展基金及就業基金代表"},{"start":20325.544,"end":20347.85,"text":"繳納貸金,但依第5條第3項規定經用者自出缺時及一個月內免繳貸金,傾向及第12條第3項之貸金,依差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算,不足業者每日以每月基本工資除以30計,其貸金之計算45入至整數,依本法應繳納之貸金,依通知現期其繳納而人不繳納者依法行移送行政執行"},{"start":20348.51,"end":20367.388,"text":"各級政府機關、公立學校、公法人、公立事業機構及第一政府採購法之得標廠商、金融或雇用原住民人數超出規定應金融或雇用原住民人數者應予獎勵其獎勵辦法由中央主管機關定制委員吳立華等18人提案修正為第24條各級政府機關、公立學校、公立事業機構及得標廠商"},{"start":20368.129,"end":20387.567,"text":"金融原住民族人數未達第4條、第1項、第5條、第1項及第12條、第1項所定比率者除每月一項原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金繳納代金中央主管機關並得公告其名稱前項代金差額人數乘以每月基本工資計算但得標廠商應繳納代金金額超過政府採購決標金額者其減輕機制由中央主管機關並併支"},{"start":20389.088,"end":20407.294,"text":"各級政府機關、公立學校及公立事業機構亦下令規定辦理,經提出相關佐證人件得名繳代金。一、第14條第二項規定經函請各級主管機關推介,於各級主管機關未函付推介前得名繳代金,但每年度僅得申請415個月違憲,報竟中央主管機關同意者得延長2個月。"},{"start":20408.414,"end":20429.21,"text":"各級主管機關含附推介次日期一個月亦得免繳代金二、以提列公務人員特種考試原住民族考試任用計劃自提列日期至未獲分配考試錄取人員通知機關解除列管含送達日址三、公務事業機構公開偵視之類別限定具原住民身份者自公告偵視檢查日期至人員到職日址"},{"start":20429.91,"end":20452.53,"text":"本法應繳納之待經通知信其繳納而人不繳納者,依法依送行正執行。各級政府機關、公司、立學校、團體及公民、事業機構、金融員、住民族、勤刑及優者應以獎勵其獎勵辦法和中央主管機關定職。中央主管機關為辦理本法相關事宜的三相關機關取得留職、停薪、員額凍結、列管、出缺、不補、勞保及公保等資料各相關機關予以配合無正當理由不得拒絕。"},{"start":20453.391,"end":20471.531,"text":"委員鄭天才等17人提案第一項修正為各級政府機關購、公立學校、公立事業機構及政府捐助之財團法人金融原住民人數為達第4條、第4條之第5條所定比率者每月應就金融差額人數向原住民族綜合發展基金之就業基金繳納代金相除第三項、第四項及"},{"start":20472.792,"end":20498.046,"text":"專屬第3項、第4項及第5項分別一列第3項、第4項其餘同行政院提案第7章委員吳立華等18人提案章明同現行法第25條委員吳立華等18人提案同現行條文第26條行政院提案增訂第2項文字為本法中華民國圈年、圈月、圈日修正至第4條、第5條、第12條、第1項至第3項及第24條、第1項至第3項自公布後3年施行其餘同現行條文"},{"start":20498.846,"end":20526.027,"text":"委員孔文吉等22人提案修正為本法處令定施行日期者外自公佈日施行委員廖國棟等25人提案增訂第二項文字為中華民國全年全月全日修正條文自全年1月1日施行其餘同線型條文委員伍麗華等18人提案修正為本法處第4條、第5條、第12條、第14條及第24條、第1項至第4項自公佈後1年施行外自公佈日施行現在宣讀姓名條例"},{"start":20527.642,"end":20549.892,"text":"本議內政委員會於111年5月25日召開第10屆第5會期第20次全體委員會議審查委員鄭天才等16人、委員吳立華等20人及委員羅美玲等18人提案及該三案之條文及委員王美惠所提修正動議均已宣讀完畢現在宣讀委員廖國棟等16人已據姓名條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":20550.512,"end":20571.934,"text":"第一條第二項前段修正為臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之姓名登記應符合其傳統名字增訂第三項文字為前項所稱之傳統名字應由中央原住民主管機關會上有關機關定之其餘同現行條文第二條第二項後段增訂但臺灣原住民傳統名字之姓名登記不在此現文字其餘同現行條文"},{"start":20573.135,"end":20593.067,"text":"第4條第一項修正為臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得與傳統姓名之羅馬拼音或原住民族文字單列或並列登記不受第一條第一項規定之限制其與同現行條文第8條第一項第三款原住民文字修正為原住民族其與同現行條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":20610.168,"end":20635.346,"text":"好我們繼續審查我們先審查那個姓名條例姓名條例的條文比較少我們先審查姓名條例那個條文這樣那個我們可能"},{"start":20637.15,"end":20654.823,"text":"我們先以大言者因為這個內政部今天的報告是認為這個還要警政院還沒有還沒有版本然後也還要擬計公事是不是內政部說明一下這樣我們就比較省時間了"},{"start":20665.555,"end":20675.7,"text":"今天主要議題涉及到那個原住民單列這個姓名單列原住民文字這個議題然後在報告裡面有主要說明說這一題行政院已經召開跨部會"},{"start":20676.58,"end":20704.293,"text":"會議的協商那基本上的結論就是說我們就是尊重朝向這個方向來推動那當時是有在提到說希望說原民會再去針對這個議題就部落的意見再去做些收集然後了解一下部落對這個議題的看法那另外就是說相關機關對於這件事情未來單列之後那因為就是都是相關的這個羅馬拼音的文字那各機關在相關配套上面能不能能夠落實跟上"},{"start":20704.753,"end":20726.292,"text":"那這個部分就是請各機關做完相關的盤點之後然後我們再行政院當時沒有沒有特別說要再包但是政府也說先把這些事情做一個釐清之後再做後續的一個最後的處理這樣所以我們目前也還沒有這個行政院我們還沒有提出修法的版本以上報告"},{"start":20735.11,"end":20755.236,"text":"所以這個部分我有按照部長早上的報告然後還有懸打這個所以行政院還要另外因為政務委員還沒有正式的拍板定案"},{"start":20773.694,"end":20785.579,"text":"最高行政法院也已經有判決了也有人已經單列了所以這個時候已經是水到渠成了行政院也同意,人民會也認定"},{"start":20786.544,"end":20786.765,"text":"確認對阿就這樣過了"},{"start":20798.39,"end":20820.98,"text":"行政單位好像這邊有困難是不是要讓他們再作為一下溝通因為最主要這個後面行政院還沒有拍板的時候是因為他要問說我們後續的作為到底行不行能不能馬上跟得上你跟不上你修法完了以後你跟不上也沒有用所以他為什麼到最後還沒有完全百分之百拍板那我是建議說等到那個行政院正式拍板以後再來"},{"start":20822.681,"end":20843.343,"text":"我其實不好意思因為這個我諮詢我幾乎每個會期都諮詢那我也知道內政部其實早在一兩年前我諮詢的時候都有在編錢啊都在改系統啊這個說不過去而且我們這個是最後一個會期"},{"start":20844.659,"end":20865.294,"text":"那公告實施不是我不是為了我啊這個最早古拉斯也是擔任立委也是一直在講這個問題啊啊我是覺得時候到了啦因為判決也有了也有人護證所幫那個人單列了都有了欸這個沒有什麼這個沒有什麼問題我就不理解啊版本也有啊"},{"start":20871.403,"end":20891.778,"text":"主席我看這樣子啦當然那個吳立法委員對這個案子非常在意也很認真啊努力在推動這個都可以理解啦但是我把它聽起來就是說我們行政院這個地方如果我們我們一般來講的話大家都會講說你院本在什麼地方呢個別委員當然都會有一些提出一些法案"},{"start":20892.418,"end":20917.512,"text":"那五立法委員提出這個法案我看起來是非常可行的也不像以前五花八門的案子沒有院版但在審了審了都怕了怕死了都是單點在解決那行政院我看最近還沒有提出來原因可能是至於讓他更完備可能會讓他更完備所以五立法委員也不用急這個大家會跟你一起來推動但我們也請說是不是讓"},{"start":20918.172,"end":20922.133,"text":"行政院這個地方趕快禁訴啦尤其原民會這個地方禁訴把他盤點完以後下次我相信吳立法委員連任回來以後這個案子我們就要趕快來推動了我不是為了歷史定位啦而是很多年輕人為了這件事去法院然後名字亂取大家去比賽亂取名字"},{"start":20942,"end":20964.899,"text":"我不想跟你論戰這一題這一題我是站在支持你的立場那我倒會覺得應該讓園民會這個地方來這裡不說話我就覺得怪怪的你怎麼知道就代表你們都共識都還沒取得啦共識有取得的找院版就出來了啦我們這不是第一天當立委啦至少聽一下那個園民會怎麼說"},{"start":20967.073,"end":20993.305,"text":"行政院有何意識請人民會做決論嗎剛剛內政部是講得很清楚啊人民會一直都贊成啊他們的書面包括上一次審查我們的那鄭委員你今天是主席你贊不贊成我都有條文啊今天有條文的除了吳立華委員還有鄭天才、史拉卡、趙委員還有劉美芸委員還有廖國棟委員今天都有提案所以這個部分下次再等行政院"},{"start":20997.253,"end":21021.236,"text":"就請行政院這個地方趕快提出院板因為你們都認為說有時間時程上問題各部會要去配合那就趕快加強好不好他們都支持我替他們說他們支持你們三位跟維民會你們立場是一致是沒問題的行政院"},{"start":21024.278,"end":21027.664,"text":"好這個既然沒有共識這個這個這個部分"},{"start":21040.056,"end":21055.562,"text":"當然原民會的立場從原住民族語言發展法第二條已經有原住民族文字這個地方已經規定得很清楚我們的語言跟文字已經是國家的語言國家的文字"},{"start":21056.624,"end":21085.102,"text":"所以就這個原住民發展法來講的話它的確應該已經符合這個單列的這個條件了因為法律配套已經有了這第一個那第二個是的確我們在去年行政院由另外一政委召開的那個上半年那個會議有召開過各部會的代表一起開會也有做成紀錄那這裡面呢"},{"start":21087.746,"end":21102.874,"text":"我們最後要解決我想內政部也都很大概是系統的問題可不可以解決這是一個好最後我要補充的是說顏明威的印象希望早日完成立法"},{"start":21104.571,"end":21128.562,"text":"因為內政部也都很清楚我們已經有一個案例就是寶渡白岸那個地方因為內政部已經受理已經讓他取得這個單列的這個案例了所以我們最後還是要面對這個問題因為別的研究委員會覺得為什麼只有寶渡白岸可以單列我為什麼不可以我也是原住民這個是我們要早晚面對的問題這個部分我們最後畢竟還是要解決這個問題謝謝"},{"start":21132.529,"end":21159.307,"text":"我延續剛剛也這樣講的我覺得內政部在這個部分顯然是沒有很注意這個法案的修正那修正的原理其實很簡單沒有其他的含義你為什麼一定要還要經過什麼什麼一個程序我聽不大懂我當立法會22年我聽不懂你講的話對啊就解決了嘛還有什麼現在還有什麼困難"},{"start":21163.309,"end":21175.095,"text":"今天都已經在協商了還是要問其他的部會是委員會的問題還是哪個程序沒有走完為什麼現在都已經在談判了還在談說其他的機關有什麼疑問呢因為這條這個姓名條例好幾條條文"},{"start":21186.082,"end":21212.242,"text":"剛才羅美玲召委還有莊惠雄委員也提出了這個因為行政部門還沒有準備好所以我們就另定期審查如果等一下你們回去之後OK的話我們禮拜四還可以拿出來好好溝通一下"},{"start":21213.583,"end":21234.596,"text":"因為本席也要企圖調穩這個部分很重要的很重要的很重要的要加速的這個按照如果如果我是延命會的好事我是內政部的話我就依最高行政法院的判決"},{"start":21235.905,"end":21250.662,"text":"我上次質詢有說做解釋就好啦不用修法可以做解釋如果可以的話更好現在也可以有魄力啊按照你過去的精神啊但是我現在沒有辦法做解釋我是行政部門所以我可以做解釋"},{"start":21252.003,"end":21274.662,"text":"好 這個姓名條例就另定其處理齁他們馬上說可以的話我就後天怎麼死好 接下來齁 工作前稍等一下 這邊要記錄公報 星期四齁溝通齁 溝通 星期四齁溝通有 有要告訴我"},{"start":21276.833,"end":21302.565,"text":"原住民族工作權保障法這個有一個很大的原則就是說行政院版的工作權保障法這個部分的條文對於現行條文的第幾條就是說這個第4條現行的條文第4條"},{"start":21304.621,"end":21322.658,"text":"是針對僱用下列人員諸位警察、技工、駕駛工友、清潔工、收費管理員及其他不需技工聯絡資格之非技術性公職職務"},{"start":21325,"end":21348.685,"text":"現在園民會認為是要把它擴大把職員職員也就是具備公務員資格的或是考試包括國營事業的具備資格的把它併在一起那本期的條文是要這個第4條現行條文的第4條要維持"},{"start":21349.585,"end":21367.356,"text":"然後這個我特別也提出新的條文就是說這個各級政府機關機構公立學校公民事業機構及政府監助之財團法人這個具備任用資格的"},{"start":21369.513,"end":21392.702,"text":"這些也應該納入進去分開就是要分開計算而不是合併計算那合併計算會對原住民不利的地方就是說對於這些不需要公認、內用資格的這些人在一般大部分的首長非原住民的首長"},{"start":21394.376,"end":21403.442,"text":"很多鄉鎮市長或是很多的中央或縣的首屬機關這些縣市政府這些首長"},{"start":21405.632,"end":21427.709,"text":"就不會優先禁用不計公務人員內用資格的因為他那個不用公務人員資格的他直接可以找自己的人所以變成會原住民的不計公務人員內用資格的這些會受到排擠反而會一直固然會增加"},{"start":21428.65,"end":21446.191,"text":"既有公務人員任用資格的人來寄用到政府部門但是對於不具備公務人員任用資格的部分未來就會不斷不斷的減少會有這樣的一個因為這個部分我有特別去問了"},{"start":21447.452,"end":21463.152,"text":"基層的這些不具備公務人員利用資格現在已經在職的我問他們的意見他們認為對這樣的把它合併起來對不具備公務人員利用資格的這些人的禁用會受到排擠"},{"start":21465.194,"end":21484.786,"text":"首長會會禁用這些具有公務人員資格的人所以這個部分是所以我的條文跟行政院版有很大的不同的地方所以這個部分行政院委員會是不是可以接受本席的所提的條文"},{"start":21491.411,"end":21515.593,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教我們這個原住民族工作群保障法的修法的整個條文的這個協商我們已經花了7年的時間各部會也都有非常多次的這個協商尤其是要很謝謝我們最後連"},{"start":21519.028,"end":21533.245,"text":"人事總署包括跟主要相關部會最後我們都達成現在目前的這個宴版那跟我們主席報告一下我們現在這個宴版的版本我們有兩個規劃的這個重點第一個是我們要讓我們在"},{"start":21539.591,"end":21553.919,"text":"中央各部會到地方政府各部會各地方政府都能夠增加禁用的職務列別不是只有限定在這個業務人員這個部分而已那麼在這件事情業務人員"},{"start":21557.642,"end":21584.602,"text":"他們的薪資增加的機會就會很少就永遠是業孤人員升薪的機會很少這是我們希望因為我們現在我們延敏跟非延敏每個月的薪資差異大概還有9000塊錢就是因為我們雖然失業率已經拉近了但是我們的所得第一我們都在技工公有那個地方很基層的地方來做這是我們"},{"start":21585.542,"end":21587.565,"text":"選舉委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":21601.068,"end":21606.271,"text":"有關針對現有的規定當中有901個機關是小於50個人也就是說這個機關不管是修法前跟修法後的時候它根本就是沒有義務要進入約顧五類的但是如果我們把它合併之後"},{"start":21623.18,"end":21635.034,"text":"901個機關合併公保的一些人數之後就有機會會增加我們原住民的人數我們舉一個例子在非原住民地區高雄市前鎮區區公所它的勞保總人數是22人"},{"start":21636.616,"end":21652.755,"text":"公保人數是80人如果分開計算他根本是沒有義務要禁用原住民但是合併禁用合併禁用的員工總人數他就必須因為超過100人就要禁用一人所以這個部分就是建議還是以院版的那個會去做一個通過會比較好"},{"start":21653.235,"end":21656.836,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":21672.501,"end":21693.505,"text":"也不會因為說你的技工、工友、清潔然後住警、優惠五類跟駕駛的這個工作都會被那個我們的公務員搶去但是現有的這些人還會依照這個我們這相關的而且是人數總人數之下他就變成是一個義務要經用的一個機關我們這個人呢總歸來講我們後面會他會提高比例以上"},{"start":21701.423,"end":21725.117,"text":"所以我看這個原住民族工作權保障法行政單位跟我們委員還是有很大的這個意見的分歧所以說這部分事實你們還要再溝通再溝通好不好會比較快啦好這個剛才羅處長怎麼怎麼怎麼講你的名字去了哈祿處長"},{"start":21727.625,"end":21743.291,"text":"的說明你不了解地方的所長啊地方的所長包括這個中央或是縣的失業機構在原住民族第7的"},{"start":21744.517,"end":21758.924,"text":"他當然是會優先經營公務人員然後當這個不計公務人員那用資格的這個退休後離職之後他就不會再經營我們原住民了"},{"start":21761.085,"end":21787.063,"text":"這個事他他可以他的那個首長的內用權他會比較有利但是對原住民的不計公務員內用資格的會不利會不利既然這個有這麼大分歧的意見柔昭偉剛才柔美蓮昭偉在溝通這個我們定期"},{"start":21792.185,"end":21810.25,"text":"處理電池處理工作權保障法的部分因為我的部分好像大家沒有討論到我提到的部分我是針對那個離島的部分提出修正那因為在等一下喔"},{"start":21814.161,"end":21842.937,"text":"因為之前在過去我們這個金門澎湖連江的這個人口數在2001年的時候那這個原住民工作權保障法通過的時候那時候三個離島原住民的總人口數當時其實是不到200人那個時候是147人那但是現在就是說截至今年10月底涉及在"},{"start":21846.256,"end":21858.688,"text":"有涉戶籍的已經有達到2307人所以再加上人在外島然後戶籍在本島的原住民人數其實是有超過3000人的"},{"start":21860.289,"end":21881.243,"text":"所以在這個部分我們已經有這麼多的原住民在外島涉及在外島那這些人的工作權益我們也是要顧的那就不能拿這個已經是很多年前那個2001年那個時候的標準來套用在現在的這個現況上面所以這個部分"},{"start":21884.026,"end":21890.372,"text":"這個部分你們並沒有剛剛那個沒有做回應了那個陳委員你的條文所提的第4條條文跟行政院版的條文就不一樣了就不一樣"},{"start":21907.296,"end":21934.541,"text":"不一樣不一樣你要看對照表你的條文跟行政院版的條文不一樣兩很大的分歧所以剛才羅委員才會羅昭偉才會建議說這個先先溝通先協商再處理了是這樣所以今天不處理我的這個不是你的所有的不是只有你的因為你的條文跟行政院版有很大的差距啊"},{"start":21934.997,"end":21953.072,"text":"但是我覺得你應該會同意、贊成我的條文啊我的條文方面不贊成我提的意見我覺得站在原住民立委的角度大家應該會贊成啦最主要就是說行政院的條文版本跟"},{"start":21954.453,"end":21981.202,"text":"我們提的條文有非常大的差距所以這個部分剛才柔昭也那這樣子好不好我可以現場聽一下就是說行政院這邊很大的差距那你們的看法是什麼因為我不曉得你們剛剛也都沒有說明不是那個條文你要看條文對照表啊對就根據離島的部分我只是說現在不是他現在要把那個公共樂園的部分要併在那裡面了啦那我可以先聽一下他們的意見嗎就針對這個離島的部分"},{"start":21985.267,"end":22005.96,"text":"現在重點不在離島不是離島重點是在他要把這個非公務人員的部分跟公務人員的部分要併在一起然後我剛剛的說法是他們不同意我的條文我的條文是要把它分開啊你的條文也是分開嘛你的條文也是分開嘛"},{"start":22007.165,"end":22024.285,"text":"他們要把它拼在一起拼在一起的結果不具備公務人員利用資格的未來就沒有辦法再被禁用了尤其是尤其是未來就算你因為你這個條文他們不會接受"},{"start":22026.303,"end":22053.542,"text":"因為第4條行政院也有版本就不一樣了不是說您提的我也是同意支持但我想聽一下就針對外長他們就講一下沒有關係好簡單說明說吧陳議員委員這是人事總署啊對啊就你們不好意思"},{"start":22054.807,"end":22063.905,"text":"阿你也發聲一下一直就不知道你是誰公主今天就到這邊就好了他們再溝通一下他們再去溝通一下"},{"start":22066.167,"end":22071.851,"text":"我剛不是講他們的條文跟他們的條文行政院版的條文就不是就就他們剛都講過了嗯"},{"start":22098.928,"end":22125.046,"text":"誰要說明主席各位我是人事總署的代表針對陳英文剛剛提的那個地方跟大家說明一下依照現在目前10月底的那個離島的一個統計資料剛剛陳英文有提到是說原住民在三離島的話目前是2307人"},{"start":22127.487,"end":22149.32,"text":"整個離島的話人口總是26萬人所以他的那個比例的話只有佔0.87%而已那如果就勞動力人口總數來看的話原住民的話是1935人然後離島的話是95000多人所以他這樣一算下來的話勞動力人口原住民的部分也只有0.99%"},{"start":22151.081,"end":22168.207,"text":"那我們現在規定是說至少要一趴好那我們先看目前狀況目前的話是連五類人員五類人員先排除掉那個就是離島三縣市目前根據我們的統計資料離島三縣市目前只有三個"},{"start":22169.708,"end":22181.579,"text":"五類人員只有三個好那離島三縣市他主要的公務人員的來源有兩個一個就是地方特考另外一個是就是未來考試院已經要推的離島特考那"},{"start":22182.25,"end":22209.988,"text":"地方特考跟離島特考幾乎公務員部分都是由當地的人在考那除非是說我們原住民有邏輯在在離島站線室而且他們也願意去考所謂的離島特考或者是地方特考才有辦法進到公部門那另外一塊離島最多的話就是警消人力那警消的人力又涉及到那個警察特考消防特考那個部分的話可能又是屬於專業的所以"},{"start":22212.009,"end":22231.652,"text":"目前的狀況並沒有說否定原住民優秀的原住民可以進到公部門可是目前的狀況的話就是來源會比較少那如果我們硬要定了一個數字在那邊的話可能對於離島三縣市未來的用人會比較有一點緊張啦以上說明"},{"start":22234.393,"end":22250.771,"text":"這個其實不是只有公務人員而已就是還有這個我們特別看了那個約聘人員約聘五類約聘等一下我看一下對你們那個部分也要看一下我們看的不太一樣"},{"start":22258.652,"end":22273.677,"text":"那我還是覺得我們還是要再討論好不好因為我覺得每個委員的版本其實也都不一樣那行政單位這邊都有不同的說法那就是讓哲齊我們再來做討論那他們有充分的討論之後我們再來選就比較好一點那個陳委員因為你沒有去看行政院的版本"},{"start":22284.312,"end":22291.89,"text":"他要把這個公務人員跟非公務人員併在一起算了而不是在那個離島不離島的問題了啦"},{"start":22294.245,"end":22317.962,"text":"所以他是把併在一起算了他就不同意單獨列了所以這個部分重點在這裡所以這個樓昭偉還有莊委員才會說這個再繼續溝通盡速的溝通所以這個部分就是這樣好 各位有沒有意見"},{"start":22319.298,"end":22326.063,"text":"那我們就如召委跟中衛選委員就說這個令定期審查好謝謝"},{"start":22354.514,"end":22369.964,"text":"討論事項第二案原住民族工作權保障法部分條文修正草案所列議案令定期繼續審查討論事項第三案姓名條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":22373.346,"end":22395.224,"text":"令定期繼續審查本市會議議事錄授權由由召集委員依然確定請問各位委員有沒有異議我們就確定本市議程處理完畢"},{"start":22397.975,"end":22398.175,"text":"現在上會"},{"start":22421.539,"end":22433.576,"text":"第16屆立法院第11屆立法院第12屆立法院第13屆立法院第14屆立法院第15屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院"},{"start":22438.001,"end":22444.264,"text":"第16屆立法委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":22465.255,"end":22468.946,"text":"第16屆立法院第12屆立法院議員委員會主任委員會主任委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"148983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720295d385738a682fce592351fad24fff329c986728e607a032205e24b27dc4653105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何志偉","委員發言時間":"12:43:12 - 12:58:24","影片長度":"00:15:12","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":912,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:58:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:43:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1177,"blocks":[["何委員志偉：（12時43分）謝謝主席、謝謝召委。我們是不是先有請我們部長還有經濟部連署長。"],["主席：邱部長請，還有產業發展署連署長請。"],["邱部長國正：何委員好。"],["何委員志偉：部長，還有我們經濟部的署長，我想今天有個臨時提案有討論到無人機的部分，的確當時候在2022年8月31號金門這些無人機的滋擾非常的討厭、非常的幼稚、非常的無聊，但是這些對於民心來講，它會造成一些不安定，甚至對中國解放軍等等更加地反彈。問題來了，現在已經是2023年的12月了，距離當時候金門的這個滋擾事件1年3個月，那我們的無人機反制系統，現在當然我們有把這干擾槍放上去，後來母法也即將三讀。我問一個問題就好，我們的無人機反制系統什麼時候會上路？什麼時候會在外島？什麼時候可以完成？這個部分經濟部有沒有答案？國防部有沒有答案？能不能押一個時間點，可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：上回我記得召委有提這問題，我想一個禮拜以內，我們中科院它以現有的去做一個補強，所以現在中科院如果數量夠的話，我們可以先做；至於要立案、要做研發、要做合作、採購等等後面照走，但我不指望那個期限，我們可以來補強的立刻補強。"],["何委員志偉：好，我們無人機的反制系統請部長這邊可不可以給我大概的一個時間也好。"],["邱部長國正：中科院，你們覺得大概要多久可以把它給……"],["主席：張院長請。"],["張院長忠誠：根據後續國防規劃，總共26臺外島的，目前是113年13臺、114年14臺，如果沒錯的話……"],["陳參謀長建義：13、13。"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，先看國防部的指導，我們絕對可以配合，國防部現在還是要委外嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：對。"],["張院長忠誠：還是跟委員報告一下。"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，無人機反制系統目前我們正在會同採購室和相關……"],["何委員志偉：沒關係，程序我不管，我問的是時間，時間就是勝利喔！"],["陳參謀長建義：因為它的期程是113、114，這個目前會按照……"],["何委員志偉：我等一下質詢時間會多增加2分鐘。"],["陳參謀長建義：會按照期限來走。"],["何委員志偉：對，期限是什麼？"],["陳參謀長建義：113年13套、114年也是13套，總共是26套。"],["何委員志偉：所以明年的什麼時候？"],["陳參謀長建義：到明年年底。"],["何委員志偉：明年年底才會好，還是？"],["陳參謀長建義：它的期程就是113年要完成13套……"],["何委員志偉：我的理解啦、我的理解啦！不能拖這麼久，這樣子一拖會變2年的時間，所以我們今天具體要求，明年3月份有沒有辦法好？4月份有沒有辦法好？"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，無人機反制系統……"],["何委員志偉：我的認知是這樣子啦！剛剛部長回應非常的精準，他說中科院這邊先去擋著、在那邊先補上去，之後什麼研發等等的後續再講，我的理解是這樣子，如果沒有錯的話，是不是這樣子？"],["邱部長國正：我……"],["何委員志偉：所以換句話說，在民意的要求下即刻就可以上路嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員報告，大概他們還不瞭解，因為我跟中科院那天會後，我馬上跟他們商量，我講現在有什麼、有多少？如果可以的話就先出去，後面程序照走。"],["何委員志偉：好，那我期待今年農曆年前，基本上可不可以全面上路，好不好？不可以？"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，這樣子喔！因為原來這個……"],["何委員志偉：這個事情已經發生這麼久了喔！"],["張院長忠誠：對，我因為院裡面……"],["何委員志偉：給我一個時間、給我一個時間？"],["張院長忠誠：我院裡面可以接手，就是現在……"],["何委員志偉：給我一個時間？"],["張院長忠誠：對，就是今年，我今年現有的6套可以馬上供應外島，但是因為中科院還有包括……"],["何委員志偉：沒有關係，今天我也退讓一點點，外島好多個，我現在就是首重金門。"],["張院長忠誠：對，我外島現在可以提供6部，6部我現在已經完成的。"],["何委員志偉：嗯。"],["張院長忠誠：4部或是6部，因為有兩部……會後再跟您報告，因為這個很重要，也許在本島要用，最快4部就可以先上。"],["何委員志偉：4部先上是什麼時候？"],["張院長忠誠：對，就是我已經完成了。"],["何委員志偉：已經完成了在哪裡？"],["張院長忠誠：大概年初就可以送過去了。"],["何委員志偉：年初、年初……"],["張院長忠誠：馬上可以提供、馬上可以提供。"],["何委員志偉：好，年初金門全面可以防護好，是不是？"],["張院長忠誠：就是4部。"],["何委員志偉：4部？"],["張院長忠誠：4部到6部。"],["何委員志偉：金門的部分提供4部到6部？"],["張院長忠誠：對。"],["何委員志偉：什麼時候、什麼時候？"],["張院長忠誠：如果要連安裝大概在第一季吧！"],["何委員志偉：第一季？"],["張院長忠誠：我現在已經完成了，要配合安裝。"],["何委員志偉：就是4月份之前？"],["張院長忠誠：明年初一定可以完成。"],["何委員志偉：明年初？明年初什麼時候？3月份或4月份？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，好不好？"],["何委員志偉：嗯。"],["邱部長國正：委員不要問干擾槍要幾月幾號啦！我跟各位也要報告……"],["何委員志偉：沒關係，我時間有限。"],["邱部長國正：我們現在早就規定了，外離島只要營區上空有這種飛機的話……"],["何委員志偉：反制系統、反制系統。"],["邱部長國正：就是直接射擊打掉啦！這飛機也不用……"],["何委員志偉：你要看得到它，因為有時候是飛鳥、有時候其他的物質不知道。"],["邱部長國正：那當然是要判斷嘛！"],["何委員志偉：好，反制系統今年第一季會好，是不是？"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["何委員志偉：好，謝謝！那麼我們相關同仁先請回座，部長請先留著。部長，今天……"],["主席：你講的是反制系統，還是干擾槍？"],["何委員志偉：反制系統。"],["主席：反制系統中科院有，幹嘛還要找？就直接招標就好了。"],["何委員志偉：好，反制系統，反制系統今年年初會好。","來，部長，今天由我們國內自己主持極機密的國防軍事會談、會議以及固安計畫，前前後後大概有10人在押，我必須以一個負責任的執政黨說這是國防部跟國安系統有在控管，有在控管才會查得到、抓得到，後續根據我的瞭解，他們拿到的這些資料也都是舊版的，沒有更新，裡面判決書跑出來，什麼多少錢、多少錢，他們是在喊價格，其實某種程度是針對特定族群做一些心戰，動搖我國國軍還有國人的民心。我先就教一下，這些狀況發生了，我要問的事情是不是請政戰回應一下？資料是極機密，他只是校級而已，是如何拿到資料的？這個部分知道嗎？校級的人如何取得將級的會議資料？這個部分可不可以說明？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員簡單報告，我們很多工作都有一定的規定，有程序，嚴格講起來就是沒有照這個程序，他應該要直接交給誰然後歸檔，可能中間轉發給一個人，叫他歸檔，這個當中有出了問題。我們是很沉痛的，我們要檢討。"],["何委員志偉：政戰要不要說明一下？"],["陳局長育琳：報告委員，誠如剛剛部長說的，在程序方面我們確實有一些瑕疵。另外，這個案子高等法院也在依法辦理，會後我們是不是派員跟委員說明？"],["何委員志偉：我問一下，這些資料都是舊版，對不對？沒有用了嘛！還是應該怎麼說會比較好？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我並不認為是新舊的問題，因為不論新的、舊的，臺澎的防衛作戰就那麼大的地方，再怎麼調……整體來講，我並不界定在新舊的問題，而是國防部真的要痛定思痛，因為這可以講是一個奇恥大辱。"],["何委員志偉：當時是怎麼發現的？"],["陳局長育琳：官兵檢舉。"],["何委員志偉：這一套系統我們內部到底要怎麼辦？","不好意思，召委，我要借一點時間。我們看一下兵推，好不好？部長，我近期有到國防大學還有國防安全研究院考察，也很謝謝國防部，身為召委，當時我要求把海鯤號、F-16V還有無人機三個元素放進我們的兵推裡面，的確後續的結論等等，我們發現兵推之後，我國的國防實力還有嚇阻能力的確大幅度增加。根據我的瞭解，在其他國防先進的國家裡面，以美國為例，三軍官校當中兵推課程是標準的配置。目前我看到我們臺灣、中華民國，兵推要等任官後，在軍官的正規班才開始。我要問一下國防大學，國防大學有沒有自己的兵推系統？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，我們國防大學的兵推系統是用JTLS系統，是跟國防部一起共用的。"],["何委員志偉：我們自己沒有嘛！"],["李教育長成中：是。"],["何委員志偉：我再問一下，我們對照一下美軍好了，他們從上到……它畢竟是最大的系統之一。美軍的人才在軍校，18歲到22歲就有在培養，並且讓他們有戰略跟戰術的思維。我們的軍校的確是培育下一波國家重要的國軍人才，當然很多國軍會說拔草、掃地等等，可能只是一百項工作的其中一項，我的認知是，當我們的國軍從18歲、很年輕就知道未來怎麼決策，這個國家……我離題一下，我們在講智商（IQ）等等，不是他腦部開發了幾趴，而是他的組織能力是強的，決策能力是強的。未來我們的軍校是否可以有自己的兵推系統，從很年輕的時候就知道怎麼樣決策？如此在未來的時間裡，他們一起長大，他們也會有聯合作戰意識。這個部分可不可以就教部長，這樣的建議國防部會怎麼看待？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，委員這個建議很好。事實上，我現在要說明一下，所謂兵推是一個統稱，真正的推演有沙盤推演、兵棋推演、狀況推演。剛才委員講在軍校裡面就推演，這絕對可以做。"],["何委員志偉：好。"],["邱部長國正：我們要做任何一個科目之前，哪怕是在地板上擺幾個石頭也叫狀況推演，也叫兵棋推演，現在部隊裡面在做了，哪怕今天要打靶，靶溝勤務哪一些人站出來，這也是一個訓練，所以剛剛委員這個建議很好，我們隨時強化。"],["何委員志偉：另外一件事情，我跟部長討論未來的政策及教育系統。我理解國防大學現在用的真的是高技術性的，應該叫JTLS系統，沒有錯。再看下一個 PowerPoint頁面，好不好？我們有去國防安全研究院，你看一下左邊跟右邊，這是zoom out之後，非常遙遠的看，他們將任何參數放進之後，整個圖是會動的。我認為18歲到22歲的年輕人看相對應的兵推等等，其實會演繹出來，甚至很清楚地知道動態，因為它很即時，非常的擬真，就如同我當時建議飛官用模擬器去看待，因為越接近真實他越理解，包含他的組織、邏輯等等，還有有趣性也會增加。請看一下左下角這個框是各國使用的情形，還有這些兵推的軟體等等，是否也幫軍校爭取一下？我們是否可以……畢竟18歲到22歲，你要他看臺灣整島或整個印太，以那個規模（scale）兵推或者沙盤推演太大了，有些東西可以小部分、小部分拆解，讓他知道應該如何跟同僚甚至不同的聯隊、軍種協同，以及他們之間的合作關係、聯合關係是什麼。部長可不可以考慮？對於這個意見，您的想法呢？"],["邱部長國正：這個是很好的意見，委員表達出來的是每個層級不一樣，每個系統有不同的層級，剛剛講的JTLS已經到戰區系統，對一個排級或連級以下的單位來講，他用不到那個，所以現在各國都有手錶一樣的，上面就是兵力如何、配備如何、在哪裡，我們也朝這方面發展，但不是一蹴可幾，部隊裡面有一些已經在做了，有助我們掌握狀況，狀況掌握好了，用兵自然就好用，比較正確。"],["何委員志偉：更加現代化的國軍、更加先進的國軍，某個程度當然取決於我們手上持有的這些器械或者是用具（equipment），但是更重要的是腦部裡面的思維、邏輯、決策力還有參謀的能量，好不好？今天有兩個提議，謝謝部長都接受，感謝你。謝謝召委，謝謝同仁。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何召委，何召委的意思是國防大學的兵推不生動，商用兵推比較生動。"],["何委員志偉：我們那一天有去，那一天去看就是點跟線這樣子而已，但是那是真正的專業。既然是教學用，應該……"],["主席：多用商用的兵推。"],["何委員志偉：對。"],["主席：國防院裡面的比較好。"],["何委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝何委員。","接下請陳椒華委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.11846875,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14.610968750000001,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16.16346875,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17.90159375,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18.05346875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":19.63971875,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":25.57971875,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26.727218750000002,"end":46.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":46.673468750000005,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.924718750000004,"end":82.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":82.24596875,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.22846875,"end":87.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.48971875000001,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.73721875000001,"end":114.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":114.54471875,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.02471875,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":124.28159375000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":124.33221875000001,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.85534375,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.53346875,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.93409375000002,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.00846875000002,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.43409375000002,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.24284375000002,"end":167.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":164.56221875,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.42659375000002,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":176.12159375000002,"end":176.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.61096875,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":176.62784375,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.60659375,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":186.65159375000002,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.95534375000003,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":187.22534375,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":193.84034375000002,"end":194.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.03846875000002,"end":198.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":197.85659375,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":208.13346875000002,"end":211.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.98971875,"end":211.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":211.27221875,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.55909375000002,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":211.59284375000001,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.62659375,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":211.77846875,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":212.36909375000002,"end":218.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.66409375,"end":215.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":218.64659375000002,"end":235.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.89784375000002,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.91471875000002,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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out之後這是非常遙遠的看他們在做任何的參數放進去之後其實他這整個圖是會動的那我認為從對一個18歲到22歲的年輕人他們在看相對應的兵推等等的其實他會演繹出來"},{"start":765.757,"end":786.609,"text":"甚至他很清楚的知道他動態他很及時非常的擬真就如同我當時候建議我們的這個很多非官他是用那個模擬器這樣子去看待因為越接近真實他越理解包含他的組織邏輯等等包含還有這個有趣性也會增加"},{"start":787.389,"end":812.618,"text":"所以我在這邊講請看一下我們這個左下角這個框是各國使用的還有這些兵推的軟體等等是否這邊也幫軍校這邊爭取一下下我們是否可以因為畢竟18歲到20歲你要他看臺灣整島或整個印太東西的規模那個skill去做兵推或者沙盤推演太大了但是有些東西可以小部分小部分拆解讓他知道"},{"start":813.358,"end":834.05,"text":"我應該如何跟我的同僚甚至不同的聯隊甚至不同的軍種他們之間的合作關係聯合的關係是什麼這邊部長可不可以這個意見您的想法呢這很好意見我就想說委員所這個表達出來這個是每個層級不一樣每個系統有不同層級就剛剛講的JETOS"},{"start":835.711,"end":850.148,"text":"它已經到戰區系統了所以對一個我們排級或聯席以下單位來講的話它用不到那個所以現在各國都有一個手錶一樣這上面就是兵力如何配備如何在哪裡"},{"start":851.109,"end":851.469,"text":"三、審查本院委員"},{"start":872.826,"end":874.527,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":891.391,"end":891.911,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"}]}},{"id":"148982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720295c49baac9895ff5d92351fad24fff329c986728e607a03220436e44e2df3ed965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉世芳","委員發言時間":"13:08:01 - 13:22:47","影片長度":"00:14:46","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":886,"end_time":"2023-12-11T13:22:47+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T13:08:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1326,"blocks":[["劉委員世芳：（13時8分）謝謝召委，現在時間比較晚了，我可不可以請一下部長，還有總督察長、法律事務司、聯三，還有訓練參謀、國防大學跟中科院？因為我要問三個問題。"],["主席：好，通通上來，總督察長室李中將，還有法律司……"],["劉委員世芳：請自己過來，好嗎？我先問一下部長，部長剛剛蔡適應委員有提到，臺灣高等檢察署的新聞稿有提到陳姓被告10人，現在只有一位叫做陳裕炘，他雖然是一個退役人員，但是是退役商人，請問一下你瞭不瞭解他有沒有被通緝？"],["邱部長國正：我知道這10人當中有3個是已經退的，7個是現役的。"],["劉委員世芳：我知道，就你所瞭解的部分，這個陳裕炘有沒有被通緝？"],["邱部長國正：有通緝。"],["劉委員世芳：有通緝了嘛？"],["邱部長國正：通緝了，有的好像已經跑到對岸。"],["劉委員世芳：是，有通緝，所以這個部分看起來，不管是7個人或是10個人，最後到法院判決的時候，應該都會觸犯到貪污治罪條例，甚至國安法，或者是情工法。我要請教一下，部長雖然可以看到這個是11月27日臺灣高等檢察署所發布的新聞稿，但是我們略為知道，不管是特種的像化學兵或是陸海空等等相關極精密的國防部內部資料，請問我們後續的補救方案或是亡羊補牢的方案，現在開始啟動了沒有？"],["邱部長國正：我們同步來啟動，因為當初這個案子一出以後，我們有很多要補強的，也就是人家講的損害管控……"],["劉委員世芳：是補強還是廢掉？我知道損害管控很重要，這種風險的部分。但是我要跟你講，這裡面有好多是極機密的部分，極機密要按照國防部內部的程序，還是必須要由譬如下面不管是哪一個軍種再上上來，但是這樣子的機制會不會太慢？我要跟部長提到的就是，因為這裡面太多極機密的部分，有沒有可能馬上先通案處理？譬如先把它撤掉或是先把所謂的舊案全部都一起否決掉，然後趕快重新擬定新的方案，而不是只有換湯不換藥。"],["邱部長國正：我們當然要同步在做。"],["劉委員世芳：你知道我的意思，那你什麼時候可以完成我所說的？依高檢署所發布的新聞稿，我相信你們從他的起訴判決書裡面一定會瞭解到國防部內部到底有哪一些極機密、機密，不管是陸海空三軍哪一個部分受到影響，現在要趕快亡羊補牢，部長，你可以答應我什麼時候可以把它完成補強的工作？"],["李總督察長兆明：報告委員，針對所有洩密的資料，剛剛前面已經有委員指導過，我們跟地方法院拿到起訴書相關的證據以後，會做成一個清單，然後將所有洩密出去的計畫全部修訂。"],["劉委員世芳：要作廢，對不對？"],["李總督察長兆明：是。"],["劉委員世芳：先作廢再修訂。我剛剛問的是什麼時候可以完成，這是你們內部的行政程序可以做到……"],["李總督察長兆明：這個在今年……"],["劉委員世芳：不需要經過臺灣高檢署同意啊！"],["李總督察長兆明：是，報告委員，這個在明年第一季就可以完成。"],["劉委員世芳：明年第一季？就表示從目前開始，你要3個月才完成，3個月裡面如果有任何其他境外的勢力來了，太慢了吧？"],["李總督察長兆明：是。"],["劉委員世芳：部長，極機密的部分可不可以儘快來完成？"],["李總督察長兆明：可以、可以。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，我們只要有這個名稱以後，馬上就截止或作廢，這是可以很快做的。"],["劉委員世芳：對、是。"],["邱部長國正：拿到後就一個命令下去，他們就去追查及作廢了，其他也補強……"],["劉委員世芳：是，所以你可不可以就在這個禮拜內把極機密的部分趕快儘量把它截止或作廢？"],["邱部長國正：可以，我跟委員報告，我們只要拿到相關資料知道名稱以後，一個禮拜絕對綽綽有餘了。"],["劉委員世芳：一個禮拜喔！麻煩到時候拜託……"],["邱部長國正：只要我們跟法務單位拿到資料以後下命令去追，一個禮拜綽綽有餘。"],["劉委員世芳：新聞稿已經出來了，國防部是受害者嘛！所以儘量趕快找到相關資料，好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["劉委員世芳：這是第一個。第二個我要問的就是葛明德這一位國防大學的教授。跟現役軍官遭吸收部分相關的首長可以先回去。我想問一下國防大學這個部分，他將研究成果跟中國籍人士申請專利，請問國防大學還有中科院怎麼看待這件事？請回應一下。"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，目前他跟對岸廠商申請專利的……"],["劉委員世芳：申請專利怎麼會是跟對岸廠商？一定是對岸的官方廠商機構，哪有去跟對岸的廠商申請專利？"],["李教育長成中：沒有……"],["劉委員世芳：你來看一下，這裡面的部分就是有關電鍍法製備高披覆性抗沾黏類陶瓷的部分，這個不是做碗，你要搞清楚啊！你要知道我們在國科會剛剛通過了幾個國家核心關鍵技術，有相關這些技術屬國防部主管就很多，包括碳纖維、碳高溫耐燒蝕技術等等這些，所以事實上你們不能把它等閒視之，覺得好像只是為了一點點錢，然後就申請中國專利，你們要搞清楚狀況。"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，媒體上面那些專利事實上跟我們學校持有的專利是沒有相關的，有些我們還在查證中，有些是不屬實的。"],["劉委員世芳：表示你還在查核當中，那我再問一下中科院，你瞭不瞭解？中科院也有若干的委託計畫給這位葛明德教授，我剛所說的用電鍍法製備高披覆性抗沾黏類陶瓷鍍膜技術，還有先進的環保鉻碳類陶瓷製程技術等等，有沒有牽涉到中科院自己內部認定是屬於關鍵技術或是屬於國防機密？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，這幾年來我們查了一下，葛明德跟我們中科院有14個案子。"],["劉委員世芳：對。"],["張院長忠誠：那14個案子都是基礎科學研究，也就是剛才有委員詢答，我們講了，基礎關鍵是依照三級的TRL，就是技術備便水準，所以這14個案子我們這兩天特別漏夜來查，它沒有涉及到機密。"],["劉委員世芳：好，但是這裡面是不是還有包含3個110年到112年先進系統工程研究中心？他是不是其中一個？"],["張院長忠誠：這個就不是中科院的範疇了……"],["劉委員世芳：請再查核清楚，好嗎？國防部或者是國防大學再查核清楚，有14案，這14案裡面是葛明德先生或是葛明德教授有涉案的部分，我們現在擔心的就是核心關鍵技術，如果沒有把它查清楚的話，你會認為只是一般的學研，甚至他跑到中國去申請專利的時候，申請完專利變成中國就可以無限被授權使用，我覺得這個非常糟糕。部長，您聽到這樣子的部分，你的指示是什麼？最近有沒有什麼樣子的方式來指示中科院或者國防大學？"],["邱部長國正：委員剛剛講的，我們已經交代了，不管是中科院也好或國防大學理工學院分別去查，但我們同步在做，第一個做的事情是完全把他移送法辦，原本他們還講要查到某個地步再移送，我想這個不用等，這兩個工作是同步在做。"],["劉委員世芳：好，就是部長已經指示乾脆移送法辦，不用再經過內部的行政調查，是嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不是，有行政調查，但移送法辦以後我們一樣要走我們的程序。"],["劉委員世芳：就是同步進行就對了？"],["邱部長國正：對，同步。"],["劉委員世芳：好，瞭解。同步進行，我想這樣才能夠真正遏止我們的關鍵技術外流，好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：是的。"],["劉委員世芳：部長，你指示要移送法辦的時間是什麼時候？"],["邱部長國正：我昨天就講了，禮拜六我知道以後打電話給國防大學校長，我有跟他講了。"],["劉委員世芳：是，但是12月8號為什麼國防大學自己對外說成立專案小組啟動調查？表示這是行政調查。"],["邱部長國正：所以那天……"],["劉委員世芳：國防大學有沒有收到部長的指示？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，早上媒播出來之後，我們就立刻成立專案調查小組，然後這一整天就開始調查，然後也在研擬相關後續的作為。"],["劉委員世芳：有關移送法辦這件事情是由國防部移送法辦還是國防大學移送法辦？到底是誰？"],["邱部長國正：我要求他們。"],["劉委員世芳：是，所以教育長你所回應的是啟動調查，這就是我所說的，這叫做行政調查，你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示移送法辦？"],["李教育長成中：有，確實有按照部長的指示來做……"],["劉委員世芳：函送法辦嘛！公文什麼時候出去的？"],["李教育長成中：今天上午。"],["劉委員世芳：今天上午才出去嘛？"],["李教育長成中：今天上午函送。"],["劉委員世芳：所以部長昨天指示，你們今天上午出去，這樣算是快，是不是？"],["李教育長成中：因為昨天是週日，我們已經有同仁在作業，今天早上是上班日，今天上午就會送走……"],["劉委員世芳：就會送走是表示還沒送，還是送了？"],["李教育長成中：已經函送出去了，已經批示發文了。"],["劉委員世芳：可以對外公布函送出去的時間讓我知道一下，好嗎？"],["李教育長成中：是。"],["劉委員世芳：再來，我想要請教部長，最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評我們立法院即將二、三讀的軍事營區安全維護條例裡面是否涉及侵害到一般尤其是有關攝錄影這個部分，後來我們來查證一下，就是說在原來我們的法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法第四條第一款也是一樣，沒有受到國防部特別命令的話，不得為測量、攝影等等，如果有違反的話，其有期徒刑是一年到七年，但是同樣很類似的部分，放在軍事營區安全維護條例草案第六條是「非經軍事機關許可」。我是不是可以直接請沈中將來回應一下，請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡？競合在哪裡？為什麼會對於有一些軍事迷有興趣、不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈？是不是請沈中將可以回答一下？"],["沈司長世偉：是，報告委員，跟委員簡單說明，要塞堡壘地帶法規範的是要塞堡壘，要塞堡壘必須經過公告，現在全部地區大概有22處，不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘，而軍事營區安全維護條例所保護的客體是營區，我們作戰部門有概略統計過，大概有上千個營區。要塞堡壘地帶法第四條規範的罰則，就像委員剛剛講的，可能有到徒刑的處罰，而軍事營區安全維護條例第六條所規範的罰則，原則上是只有行政罰，並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰。"],["劉委員世芳：是，除非他是……"],["沈司長世偉：程度不一樣。"],["劉委員世芳：對、對，但是為什麼大家會反彈就在於你所說的，要塞堡壘地帶法所牽涉到的範圍比較小、比較少。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：但是軍事營區的安全，就像你所說會有一千多個營區，很多人就會懷疑，出了這個鐵圍籬之外，我如果對著空中上面拍攝F-16或是我對著大樓上面拍攝，譬如海軍的活動等等，是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護條例？這個怎麼辦？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，單純這種對著天空拍攝飛機飛行的概況，或是拍攝戰車從馬路經過，通通都不在規範的範圍之內。"],["劉委員世芳：我建議沈中將要對外說清楚。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：臺灣也有很多軍事迷，他們純粹是軍事迷或是很多軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝，尤其像最近海鯤號受到民眾的支持，滿意度非常高，我們自己對內，不管是這個機制的保存也好，或是保防，都做得還算不錯，如果我們把軍安條例無限擴大，讓他覺得拿個攝影機就會受到影響，甚至會有人拿著槍出來趕他走，這個部分如果沒有說清楚講明白會很糟糕，尤其是「非經軍事機關許可」，就我瞭解應該是要該營區裡面的指揮官許可才可以，是不是？"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["劉委員世芳：還是門哨就可以許可？"],["沈司長世偉：如果是拍攝的相關許可的話，我們在後面會訂定7個辦法，也就是有7個子法。另外，哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制，會有4個公告。該有的法規命令、該有的公告，我們都會按程序來做，誰有權許可、在什麼樣的營區由什麼樣的人可以許可等等，以及如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去通報、該怎麼樣請示，都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範。"],["劉委員世芳：因為這裡面也牽涉到電視臺或者是其他的媒體，他們也很關心這個部分，所以未來要公告的時候，主管機關是放在國防部來主管，還是放在行政院主管會比較好？"],["沈司長世偉：報告……"],["劉委員世芳：因為行政院在主管的過程當中，他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由的部分，譬如電視臺或者是媒體等等，他們的管制方向跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的部分，如果純粹由國防部自己就軍安維護條例來當主管機關，會不會讓人家覺得有差池？會覺得國防部自己不願意受到任何其他媒體或者是正常媒體宣傳的競合作為？"],["沈司長世偉：跟委員報告，我們將來訂定法規命令，行政院也有規範，我們現在都在草擬，將來的法規命令要正式準備進行法規程序之前也會先預告，預告完了，行政院對這些也都會有指導，完全都要行政院同意了之後，最後要行政院核定之後才會生效執行。"],["劉委員世芳：你不能這樣講，法律不是這樣子的。立法院通過之後，行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。"],["沈司長世偉：是、是。"],["劉委員世芳：你不能說立法院通過之後，行政院又可以另外再下指導棋，不能這樣！"],["沈司長世偉：不會、不會，我們是照著法律授權……"],["劉委員世芳：你是學法的，你應該知道。對，要法律授權……"],["沈司長世偉：對，我們是照著法律授權的範圍……"],["劉委員世芳：所以法律授權放在行政院來訂定子法或者是其他行政命令會比較好，還是放在國防部會比較好？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，應該是放在國防部，這個我們先前就有討論過，我們是主管機關，由我們來訂定……"],["劉委員世芳：我先跟你提醒，因為再接著下來可能在四黨協商的時候，這個議題還是會被提出來，如果我們考量這個時間上的因素，希望趕快通過的話，恐怕對每個不同黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白，最後二、三讀通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮，好嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：是，我們會持續去說明。"],["劉委員世芳：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝各位。"],["沈司長世偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：跟劉委員說明一下，那個協商過了，只是一週內要提7個辦法跟4個公告出來……"],["劉委員世芳：這個我知道！"],["主席：所以也請儘速提出來，我們再來詳細討論，就執行面當中，大家會比較質疑一點點……"],["劉委員世芳：二、三讀還沒有……"],["主席：對，二、三讀還沒有。"],["劉委員世芳：我剛剛講的是二、三讀。"],["主席：是，好，謝謝。","接下來蘇治芬、蘇治芬，蘇治芬委員不在。","翁重鈞、翁重鈞、翁重鈞，翁重鈞委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員除不在場者外，都已經發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳明文委員、蔡易餘委員、馬文君委員、趙天麟委員及陳超明委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復聯席各委員，並副知聯席會。今日委員口頭質詢未答復部分及要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供給各個委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":0.03096875,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.94596875,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5.835968750000001,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.31096875,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":19.47096875,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.09534375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.64346875,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":25.039718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":30.60846875,"end":33.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":33.10596875,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.564093750000005,"end":50.774093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":50.369093750000005,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.212843750000005,"end":51.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.68471875,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":56.95034375,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.62096875,"end":94.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.80096875000001,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.42409375000001,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.69784375,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.69346875000001,"end":108.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":123.38721875,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.05971875,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":140.61659375000002,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.26659375,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.79784375,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.50659375,"end":169.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":188.11971875,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.31784375,"end":189.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.60409375,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.70909375000002,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":200.77596875,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.90159375000002,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":208.01534375,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.33159375000002,"end":210.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":209.36534375000002,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.20909375000002,"end":210.293468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"是啊,所以國防大學教育長你所回應的是你啟動調查,這就是我所說的,這叫行政調查啊那你到底有沒有按照國防部長的指示就是移送法辦有,有確實的按照部長的指示來做那個 安送法辦嘛,什麼時候出去的?公文今天上午今天上午才出去嘛今天上午會,是,今天上午請這個做寒送 所以部長昨天指示你們今天上午出去,這樣算是快,是不是?"},{"start":530.52,"end":539.514,"text":"昨天是週日我們已經有同仁在作業然後今天早上是上班日然後今天上午就會出手就會送走是表示還沒送還是送了?"},{"start":541.019,"end":543.6,"text":"最近這兩天包括某個媒體也都在批評就是說我們立法院即將二三讀的這個軍事營區安全維護條例裡面"},{"start":562.39,"end":577.262,"text":"是否為涉及就是說侵害到有一般尤其是什麼露營啊射露營這個部分後來我們來查證一下的部分就是說在原來啊我們那個法律有個要塞堡壘地帶法的地帶法的第四條第一款也是一樣"},{"start":577.862,"end":597.318,"text":"沒有受到國防部的特別命令的話不得為測量、攝影等等這些如果有違反的話呢它的有期徒刑是在一年到七年那但是呢同樣很類似的部分放在我們的軍事營區的安全而物條例裡面第六條的審查裡面是非經軍事居關許可我想我是不是可以直接請這個省中將來回應一下請問這兩個之間的差別在哪裡?競合在哪裡?"},{"start":602.622,"end":625.663,"text":"為什麼會有一些就是說對於軍事迷他們有興趣不一定涉及國家安全的人會對這個有些反彈是不是請沈中將可以來回答一下是報告委員跟委員做簡單的說明要塞堡壘地帶法它規範的是要塞堡壘要塞堡壘它必須經過公告那現在在我們全部地區大概有22處不是所有的營區都是要塞堡壘"},{"start":626.323,"end":649.617,"text":"那軍事營區安全維護條例它的保護的課題是營區我們作戰部門有概略統計過大概有上千個營區那藥材保理第二法第四條它規範的罰則就像委員剛剛講的它可能有到徒刑的處罰那軍事營區安全維護條例它第六條裡面所規範的罰則那個只有原來上面原則上是只有行政法並沒有到並沒有到所謂刑罰的處罰"},{"start":650.538,"end":653.642,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":670.282,"end":681.171,"text":"我如果對著空中上面拍攝F16或是我對著這個大樓上面拍攝譬如說我們海軍的活動等等這些那是不是已經影響到軍事營區安全維護的條例?這個怎麼辦?單純這種你對著天空拍攝這個飛機的飛行的概況或是說我們有戰車經過馬路的從馬路經過你拍攝這個這個通通都不在規範的範圍之內那我建議是"},{"start":695.903,"end":710.975,"text":"拜託省中將要對外說清楚,台灣也很多軍事迷,他們純粹是軍事迷或是我們很多的軍事攝影雜誌也很希望拍攝,尤其像我們最近海昆號其實受到這個民眾的支持滿意度是非常高,那我們自己對內"},{"start":712.076,"end":712.316,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":732.105,"end":749.168,"text":"尤其是非經濟事機關許可就我了解應該是說該營區裡面的指揮官要許可才可以是不是?還是門哨就可以許可?如果要拍攝相關的許可的話我們會在後面有定的有七個辦法有七個執法"},{"start":749.828,"end":774.468,"text":"另外哪些地方能拍不能拍或是哪些地方有管制有四個公告該有的法規命令該有的公告我們都會按著程序來做誰有權許可在什麼樣的營區有什麼樣的人可以做許可等等那如果發覺有人違規該怎麼樣去做通報該怎麼樣請示都會在相關的法規命令裡面來規範因為這裡面也牽涉到如果說是電視台或者是其他的媒體他們也會很關心這個部分"},{"start":776.73,"end":797.718,"text":"所以我們未來要公告的時候或是未來要主管機關放在還是放在國防部來主管還是放在行政院主管會比較好因為行政院在主管的過程當中他們會比較考慮到涉及到言論自由比如說是電視台或者是媒體等等這些他們的這個管制的方向會跟國防部還會有一些必須要溝通的"},{"start":798.038,"end":798.938,"text":"國防部會否不願意受到媒體宣傳禁核?"},{"start":815.424,"end":835.241,"text":"我跟委員報告我們將來定法規命令行政院也有規範我們現在都在朝你將來的法規命令要正式要準備要進行法規程序之前也會先做預告那預告完了行政院對這些也都會有點都會有指導完全都要行政院同意了之後最後才會行政院要核定你不能這樣講法律不是這樣子的"},{"start":835.922,"end":857.407,"text":"立法院通過之後,行政院也只能按照立法院所通過的法條來處理。你不能說立法院通過之後,我行政院可以另外再下指導期。不能這樣子。我們是照著法律授權。對,我們是照著法律授權的範圍。所以法律授權放在行政院執法或者是其他的行政命令的話會比較好,還是放在國防部會比較好?"},{"start":857.915,"end":881.413,"text":"二、報委應該是放在國防部這個我們先前就有討論過我們是主管機關有我們來定我先跟你提醒了因為再接著下來可能我們在四黨協商的時候呢這個議題還是會被提出來那如果我們考量這個時間上的因素希望趕快通過的話恐怕對每個不同的黨團之間的溝通或者是對外界的溝通要說清楚講明白最後二三度通過才比較不會有其他的疑慮好嗎我們會持續去說明謝謝部長謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"148976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202985df5afa4620ed7992351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322f142c201840b90755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"12:58:33 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都是在法院審理都有判決的那在"},{"start":400.828,"end":402.31,"text":"議長,您現在講的在協調會都講了很多次,但是本期開會的時候,因為你一直沒有來開會,所以我要跟局長、跟部長也說,"},{"start":417.89,"end":435.567,"text":"這位國軍弟兄他也是後來發了很多次函給我們國防部說他是同意的他是同意的我再講三遍同意同意同意所以部長麻煩你再確認一下是不是可以再追回他是眷戶的眷改戶"},{"start":437.068,"end":450.017,"text":"簡單就是這樣。他原先是有意見,對我們卷改是有意見,但是後來他也發了非常多次的函,說明他是願意卷改的,他不是不同意。這樣了解嗎?"},{"start":451.462,"end":475.678,"text":"我們了解因為很多法規它有個期限對不對在你這個期限以內你答覆怎麼樣你就要秉持啊當然委員會講他已經好像改了我們也要改我們是公家機構多少人這個狀況一個一改我們前面法走過程序就別人也要否定好部長當然我們現在了解是不是請局長親自親自我們再來討論一下"},{"start":482.046,"end":495.031,"text":"看我們黃先生還有國安陸村有什麼問題那剛剛也答應說趕快發文那這位黃家雄弟兄我們是不是再討論一下可不可以再讓他追認他是眷改戶可以嗎"},{"start":497.061,"end":515.614,"text":"方委員,會後我再到辦公室跟您報告。那部長可以嗎?可以麻煩你也撥個心,就是也去關心一下這個案子。我們也不願意看到這位黃先生真的是也是活得很辛苦。我也不願意看到,我也很難過嘛。大家以前跑走一場。"},{"start":516.534,"end":518.115,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"}]}},{"id":"148974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720297f888941cac4a0bd92351fad24fff329c986728e607a03226a92922fd67a804f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"12:32:37 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12:43:08","影片長度":"00:10:31","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":631,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:43:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T12:32:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1147,"blocks":[["邱委員臣遠：（12時32分）謝謝召委，我們邀請邱國正部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長國正：邱委員好。"],["邱委員臣遠：部長午安，9月下旬邱部長首度證實我國對大陸有偵蒐雷達跟國際情報的交流，可以清楚掌握到東南沿海的共軍動態。另外您上次也說，如果中共要對臺進行軍事行為，部隊必須事先大規模的調動，這部分一定會被偵測到，但是請問部長，我們目前這些作為是不是已經足夠爭取應變的時間，保障臺灣的安全？就目前在大選前夕，你現在所掌握的狀況。"],["邱部長國正：我們要看有沒有徵候，目前沒有什麼特別的徵候，他們有聯合軍演、聯合戰、戰備警巡都是週期性的，大概每個月都會有，我們掌握的就是這個，我們也不期望有什麼異常的狀況發生，所以我們持續密切注意。"],["邱委員臣遠：接續這個問題，對於昨天有某位副總統參選人提出當選之後要單向派軍事觀察員赴中國長住，以確保臺灣的安全，請問邱部長，您認為需不需要派觀察員長住大陸？這樣能不能保障臺灣的安全？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，針對選舉議題，我們通常不做任何評論，因為第一，國軍本來一向就是行政中立的，因為選舉拋出了一個議題叫我們國防部表達意見，我認為不妥啦！所以就算我有看法，我也絕對不會這樣公開表達我個人的任何看法，就跟平常有很多學者專家討論國防議題，我尊重他們是專業人員，他們有立論基礎，但國防部從來不會去參與討論是一樣的道理，尤其在選舉期間，任何人發表任何言論，只要跟國軍有關的，我代表國防部部長，我不做任何置喙。"],["邱委員臣遠：接下來這個問題就跟國軍有直接的關係，針對共諜的案件，近日國防大學也證實，理工學院的教授葛明德主持先進系統工程研究中心，這是綜管國軍國防產業需求與科技的整合，但是他卻在外開設公司並且與中國技術合作，公司的董事會更在校內召開相關的作為，這會影響國安危機，國防大學表示已經成立專案小組啟動調查，如果葛員有涉不法，絕不寬貸，這是目前國防部的說法。","我想就教邱部長另外一個議題，今天有媒體報導，國防部軍事安全總隊及高檢署今年7月底破獲近十餘年來最大商人謝秉成發展軍中的共諜網案，這是今天稍早的消息，竟然發現史無前例的駕機叛逃計畫，前航特部的謝姓中校計畫跟謝秉成共諜以大約新臺幣4.8億元及泰國永久居留權為代價，趁今年6月大陸軍演時，山東號航艦行經臺海中線之際，祕密駕駛CH-47直升機叛逃並且降落山東艦，幸好在叛逃前遭到逮捕，以致他的計畫失敗。針對這兩個案子，請問邱部長您目前掌握的狀況如何，要不要在這邊說明一下？"],["邱部長國正：我坦白跟委員報告，也跟我們同仁報告，對於這件事情我相當沈痛，國軍在這一方面是一個很基本的概念，對國家的防衛、對單位的忠誠度遭遇到這種狀況，蠻不可思議的，但我不逃避，該要被法辦的絕對不會輕易縱容，所以剛剛有幾個委員講到我的看法，我個人看法就是這樣子，以最嚴重的方法來辦他，但我不能去主導，這是我發表我個人的看法。"],["邱委員臣遠：實際的管理面包含這位葛教授是不是有涉及國家安全利益跟機密人員，尤其這種涉及國家核心關鍵技術的業務人員，有受到什麼規範禁止前往大陸的相關對象，對於國防部跟國防大學的管制，從這個案子看得出來是相對鬆散的，這中間的管理漏洞要怎麼樣去補強？"],["邱部長國正：是，所以這個案子我已經採取兩個步驟……"],["邱委員臣遠：具體的措施？"],["邱部長國正：重複在做，第一個具體的措施是將他送法辦，因為剛剛委員提了幾個問題，只要跟法有關的就交給法辦，引經據典、該辦就辦，這是第一個；第二個我不能講我等待法辦結果以後才處理，我們同步在做行政調查，只要跟他這個人有關的、跟他工作有關的，相關的牽扯人員，展開行政方面查處，應該要警告、懲處……"],["邱委員臣遠：我想嚴辦、絕不寬貸這都是事後，但是事前的預防機制、防堵機制，相關法令的完善才是預防勝於治療的主要重點，我想就教邱部長，國防部現職的軍官，到底哪些人可以前往中國大陸，哪些人不能前往？尤其是退離職的人員，前往中國大陸需不需要事先申請？相關的嚴格規範，譬如說涉及到國家安全機密或核心技術，這部分你們後續除了法制上的完善，行政管理還有相關的管理機制要怎麼樣強化，我覺得這個是重點，我希望你在這邊說明一下。","另外一個部分，希望國防部可以透過這兩個案子，在內部做內控管理，因為不管任何的法辦或是絕不寬貸的態度都是事後的處理方式，如何有效的機制管理才是事情根本的重點，是不是請部長說明一下要怎麼強化後續的管理機制跟管理漏洞？"],["邱部長國正：是，基本上跟委員報告，原則上現役軍人沒有哪一個可以同意到大陸地區的，現在都沒有，退役以後看他當初在軍中服役、服勤中的職務、涉密等級等等各有規範，目前我們平常都在做的，誠如剛剛委員也有提到，保防工作我們真的很加強，所以我並不推責任，這件事情真的是保安人員發覺了以後深入來調查的，但我們不以此為滿意，有幾件大案子一連串出來，國防部的確要痛定思痛……"],["邱委員臣遠：我認為要痛定思痛、總體的盤點。我這邊具體提出一個建議，我想請國防部邱部長儘速針對這兩個案子盤點相關法制上的漏洞，尤其要針對從事國防事務現職及退離職人員申請進入中國大陸地區的作業規定做嚴加管控，並且對於前往大陸的高階人員及接觸機密跟專利的人士做嚴格管制，尤其這次葛員的事情必須從重處罰、下不為例、完全杜絕，針對這個相關法令的一個作業規定，應該要去做總體的一個盤點。"],["邱部長國正：是，這我們應該要做的，我們絕對從嚴來處理。"],["邱委員臣遠：好，第二個就是說，針對今天的重點─兵役延長的配套機制，本席之前也在這邊提出兵役延長的整個配套跟整備狀況的質詢，包含針對徵集訓練作業、分派作業跟服役期間的提繳退休金的作業，其實陸陸續續國防部都有做，我們也知道就是慢慢地再去完善，但是到底義務役要不要上戰場？前線跟後勤，甚至於哪一邊是我們國軍主要戰備的動力？如果今天不幸發生衝突，我想也沒有前線、後線之分，戰爭一旦爆發，其實到處都是前線，也沒有外島、本島之分，甚至連後備的部隊都要隨時撥充到前線。所以我想就教邱部長，除了主戰部隊之外，備戰部隊包含義務役平日的訓練要不要做好上戰場的準備，那相關的訓練內容有沒有去做一個調整？","另外一個部分，因為近年來受到少子女化的影響，國軍招募人才嚴重不足，這個其實是可見的未來，未來在相關人力的補充有沒有具體的一個作為？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這邊我還再次強調一次，因為以前我也在很多公開場合表達過，臺灣防禦的作戰我們不期望它會成真，但我們平常要做準備工作就是要防止、避免這種事情的發生，但如果一旦發生了，我想臺灣就那麼大的地方，不大！一旦發生了臺灣防禦作戰，槍砲一響沒有前方、後方。"],["邱委員臣遠：對。"],["邱部長國正：所以為什麼我要求我們所有同仁要有一個觀念─處處是戰場、要時時做訓練。就為了這一個，不期望發生的事情，一旦發生了，我們好歹也要做一些很積極的準備，這一個。第二個就是，至於有些人他的表達方法，我講說我不瞭解，就是說我也沒有任何評論，譬如說我們這一個戰場的界定，可能就講說一般來講，我只要在這個牆裡面，外面如果在打仗，外面是戰場，我裡面不是，但我已經講了，臺灣防禦作戰槍砲一響沒有前方、後方之分，就可以……"],["邱委員臣遠：我想全民國防除了我們自主的防衛意識之外，其實各國也都在看，那麼如何精實訓練的內容跟保障役男權益的一個前提之下，能夠落實前線國防跟民防，甚至中央、地方政府的合作，我想這個未來還有很長的路要走，我希望部長能夠繼續堅持住，應該要把這個相關的細節包含全民國防手冊的完善，還有中央、地方政府的相關溝通，以及役男的心理建設，還有我們國軍志願役相關的權益，也不要讓他們有相對剝奪感，最重要是重新提振國軍弟兄的榮譽感跟士氣，我覺得這是非常重要的。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["邱委員臣遠：希望部長可以繼續努力。謝謝！"],["邱部長國正：這我們本務工作應該做的。謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝邱臣遠委員。","接下來請何召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.72159375,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.252218750000004,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.44909375,"end":56.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.28784375,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.97846875,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.68096875,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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t":302.549,"end":325.127,"text":"我們相關牽涉這個人員,我們展開行政方面應該要警告…我想,嚴辦絕不寬待,這個都是事後,但是事前的預防機制、防堵機制、相關法令的一個完善,這個才是預防剩餘治療的一個主要的重點。那我想就教邱部長,那國防部現職的軍官,哪一些人到底可以前往中國大陸,哪一些人不能前往?"},{"start":325.367,"end":326.048,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":349.349,"end":367.385,"text":"透過這兩個案子在內部的內控管理因為我想不管任何的這個法辦或是絕不寬大的態度這都是事後的一個處理的方式但是如何有效的機制管理這個才是事情根本的重點那是不是請部長說明一下這要怎麼強化後續的管理機制跟管理漏洞"},{"start":367.945,"end":388.098,"text":"基本上我跟委員報告,就是說原則上現役軍人沒有哪一個可以同意到大陸地區的,現在都沒有。那退役以後,看他當初在軍中服役,在服勤當中的職務,受命等級等等,各有規範。那目前我們平常都在做的。"},{"start":388.858,"end":409.053,"text":"陳副國防委員有提到,保防這個工作我們真的在很加強,所以最近我並不幫我推責任,有幾件事情真的是保防人員發覺了以後,深入來調查的,但我們不以此為滿意啦,有這幾件大案子一連串出來,這國防部的確要痛斷是痛的。"},{"start":409.053,"end":414.317,"text":"總體盤點提出一個建議請邱部長、國防部儘速針對這兩個案子盤點相關法制上的漏洞尤其是要針對從事國防事務限職及退離職人員申請進入中國大陸地區的作業規定要做嚴加的管控"},{"start":430.348,"end":446.886,"text":"對於前往大陸的高階人員及接觸機密跟專利的人士來去做相關的一個嚴格管制,尤其這次葛元的事情必須從重處罰,下部為例完全杜絕。那針對這個相關的法令的一個作業規定,應該要去做總體的一個盤點。"},{"start":448.627,"end":472.32,"text":"第二、針對今天的重點,兵役延長的配套機制。我想本席之前也在這邊提出兵役延長的整個配套跟整備狀況的質詢。包含針對徵集訓練作業、分派作業跟服役期間的提繳退休金的作業,其實陸陸續續國防部都有做,我們也知道慢慢的再去完善。但是到底一無一要不要上戰場,"},{"start":473.12,"end":474.161,"text":"二、審查本院國民黨團擬具"},{"start":497.139,"end":518.569,"text":"我想就教邱部長除了主戰部隊之外備戰部隊包含義務役、兵力的訓練要不要做好上戰場的準備那相關的訓練內容有沒有去做一個調整那另外一個部分因為近年來受到少子女化的影響那國軍招募人才嚴重不足那這個其實是可見的未來未來在相關能力的補充有沒有具體的一個作為"},{"start":519.489,"end":544.426,"text":"我跟委員報告,我這邊我要再次強調一次,因為以前我也在很多公開場合,我也表達過,臺灣防疫作戰,我們不期望它會成真。但我們平常要做準備工作就是防止、避免這種事發生。但如果一旦發生了,我想臺灣就那麼大的地方,不大。一旦發生了臺灣防疫作戰,槍炮一響,沒有前方後方。"},{"start":545.706,"end":559.696,"text":"所以我要求我們所有同仁要有一個觀念處處是戰場實時做訓練就為了這個不期望發生的事情一旦發生了我們好歹也要做一些很積極的準備"},{"start":561.477,"end":583.657,"text":"第二、有些人的表達方法我不了解,我也沒有任何評論。比如說我們對戰場的界定,可能一般講說我只要在牆裏面,外面如果打亂,那個外面是戰場,我裏面不是。但我已經講了,颱風發生之後,槍炮一響,沒有前方後方之分。"},{"start":584.598,"end":611.033,"text":"我想全民國防除了我們自主的防衛意識之外其實各國也都在看那如何精實訓練的內容跟保障藝男的這個權益的一個前提之下能夠落實前線國防跟民防甚至中央地方政府的一個合作我想這個未來還有很長的路要走我希望部長能夠繼續堅持住應該要把這個相關的細節包含全民國防手冊的完善還有這個中央地方政府的相關溝通"},{"start":613.494,"end":627.908,"text":"以及藝南的心理建設還有我們國軍志願役相關的一個權益也不要讓他們有這個相對剝奪感最重要是重新提振國軍弟兄的榮譽感跟士氣我覺得這是非常重要的希望部長可以繼續努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a720290d94e7f2347c185592351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322091ed520d06e93fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"12:26:44 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ROTC擴大成為另外一個國防學士班，您覺得可行嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以啊！委員的這個提議很好啊！我們已經看出來國防學士班因為受限於那個範圍，而且又蠻苛的，所以來的人不多，現在ROTC除了到一般部隊做兵科軍官以外，又增加了一個可以投入專業的單位，對他們來講絕對有利吧！所以我們絕對可以把它加進去研議。"],["李委員德維：對，所以這部分我倒是建議部長跟國防部思考一下，請您參考。","另外請教一下，最近中國大陸發射了幾次火箭，前面三次發射了以後，國防部新聞稿裡面都說對於臺灣的影響不大，沒有安全的疑慮，那第四次的時候，第四次的新聞稿倒沒有特別談到這個部分，請教一下，他們第四次的火箭發射有特別不一樣或者什麼嗎？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為他們發射在我們南端好像是200浬左右上空，而且已經到了大氣層，所以也一樣沒有影響，但我們沒有特別強調這句話，事實上有很多飛彈發射以後影響或不影響，他們只要有劃設一個禁航區，代表那個周邊都有可能，所以我們也不能把話講太滿，不光這一次，可能以後我們也會強調這個，我們就告知他們要發射火箭了，有可能是探空，我們就做這個表達，對我們這個地方所有緊急危害狀況告知以後，我們有緊急狀況處理的方法，就用那個方法來做。"],["李委員德維：好，瞭解。我就說大家都非常關心召委今天特別提的這件事情，請國防部特別注意，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是的。"],["李委員德維：謝謝，謝謝召委、謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李德維委員。","接下來請邱臣遠委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.16596875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":3.0515937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.489093750000002,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284375,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.372218750000002,"end":44.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.61471875,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.422218750000006,"end":61.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.94471875,"end":76.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.59284375,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.81346875000001,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.14659375000001,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.98471875000001,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.35596875,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.59909375000001,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.83909375,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.01846875,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.35909375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.35846875000001,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.89284375,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.25409375,"end":172.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.77596875,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.30534375000002,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.91034375,"end":206.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.20534375000003,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.29346875000002,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.73784375000002,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.49221875,"end":234.59346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.59346875000003,"end":235.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.76221875000002,"end":236.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.14159375000003,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.97534375000004,"end":288.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.48909375,"end":281.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.15534375000004,"end":284.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.25659375000004,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.38221875,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.27471875000003,"end":303.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.80596875000003,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.53534375000004,"end":310.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.88534375,"end":312.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.96971875,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.69096875,"end":313.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.92284375,"end":313.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.19284375,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.10659375,"end":336.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.69159375000004,"end":336.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.60284375000003,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.73784375,"end":339.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.77971875000003,"end":338.94846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.452,"end":1.439,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩部長。邱部長請。"},{"start":11.813,"end":27.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不太一樣，沒錯吧！還是說就一般兵來用就好？當時我們設立國防學士班的目的何在？就這麼簡單，是為了補充你的量的不足？還是希望真的找到又有專業，即便量不多的這些人？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，我們是希望廣開整個軍官的來源。"],["羅委員致政：所以有就好，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：要有專業當然就更好嘛！像科技方面，為什麼當初理工學院跟著清大，他們會……"],["羅委員致政：沒有錯嘛，部長講的是重點啊！"],["邱部長國正：我們也期望，但是後來招到的狀況不然嘛……"],["羅委員致政：沒有，部長，我現在不是問招的狀況，我現在是問產品出來之後好不好嘛！如果這3個是好的、很優秀，臺大的、交大、清大出來的好，就算3個我也繼續辦，我坦白講，30個當然更好，對不對？我現在講的就是說，他們陸陸續續會畢業，這幾個人即便是少數，到底對我們國家戰力也好，或專業這塊有沒有提升，請你們繼續觀察好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員致政：不要因為他們這個班可能最後不見了，已經夭折了，然後就算了，就把這批人用完就算了，我覺得很可惜啊！部長同意我這個想法吧？"],["邱部長國正：同意啊，我們也希望它好嘛！"],["羅委員致政：對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：其實，主席剛剛有一點很重要，就是到底是制度設計不夠好，還是這個制度本身就不應該存在？這的確可以討論啦！我們舉個例子來講，對這些高中畢業的學生來講，這個制度最大誘因在哪裡？大家覺得最大誘因在哪裡？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，當初設立的目的是希望他們補充軍官的來源，如果說……"],["羅委員致政：不是、不是，我現在問的是，對這些想要報名的學生，你覺得它最大誘因在哪裡？為什麼我想選擇這個？不是ROTC，甚至不是讀正期生，為什麼？你覺得誘因在哪裡？"],["劉次長沛智：他們希望能夠有專業發展，就是說……"],["羅委員致政：不是啦！不是啦！坦白講，你們就沒有從需求面去思考，讀國立大學、好的學校啦！沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：國立大學、好的學校，一方面他平常的生活，還有他的教育，我們都有資助，另外他一樣可以在……"],["羅委員致政：不是、不是，部長，財力的誘因，我跟你講，跟ROTC差不多啦！"],["邱部長國正：對，差不多嘛！一樣的，幾乎一樣。"],["羅委員致政：對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：所以如果ROTC跟學士班來比的話，其他誘因都一樣啊，唯一不同是ROTC廣開嘛。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["羅委員致政：可是國防學士班很多重點國立學校，就算5年當完兵之後，我還有交大的文憑、我有臺大的文憑、我有清大的文憑，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員致政：這才是誘因啊！所以如果你只從你國防部的角度思考到底能不能招到學生，你沒有從學生的角度思考，這是很大的問題喔！"],["邱部長國正：可是ROTC也一樣有他們學校的文憑。"],["羅委員致政：我知道，但是不是所有學校都是國立嘛！有部分啦！我再舉個例子，制度上有一個很大的問題是一般年輕人不敢去參加國防學士班，知道為什麼嗎？退訓就退學！沒錯吧？就是他如果讀到一半不讀了，抱歉！臺大就讀不下去了。"],["劉次長沛智：對，就沒有學歷。"],["羅委員致政：沒錯啊！"],["劉次長沛智：但這是當初律定的教授他們堅持的。"],["羅委員致政：我知道嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：教育部同意的。"],["羅委員致政：所以這些學生不是一般學生，因為可能他只要有一天不想走軍人這條路了、不想服兵役了，抱歉！兩頭空，沒錯吧？"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：你覺得一個高中生他敢做這個決定嗎？如果你的小孩子讀到大三了，決定不讀了，抱歉！臺大也沒了，也不用當兵，還要賠錢。天啊！這是豪賭吔！"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，這個是當初清華的副校長和教育部所談的。"],["羅委員致政：我也知道當初啊！我知道，所以你知道一個高中生畢業的時候決定要簽這個終身契約，不要說賣身契啦！簽這個契約下去，那個風險多高？"],["劉次長沛智：有點太年輕了。"],["羅委員致政：因為你們自己講嘛，投資跟效益無法滿足，其實我覺得不是投資跟效益的問題，那是只從你們的角度來看，所以投資、效益，我辦得那麼辛苦、承辦人那麼辛苦，只招3個、4個，重點是你從來沒有面對一個問題，那就是這些學生在選擇這個制度，不是ROTC、不是正期生的時候，我講白一點，比讀軍官學校還風險高。"],["邱部長國正：所以我跟委員報告，為什麼當初我們這個班，剛剛講的，是大學教授、副校長自己訂的，對不對？我們並沒有想要順水推舟，但既然能夠這麼有把握，我們當然樂意投資，可是這幾年所看到的成果不好嘛！"],["羅委員致政：沒有、沒有。"],["邱部長國正：不好我們就把它回到加入ROTC，它也沒有這個問題啊！"],["羅委員致政：部長，這個制度都不是你在任的時候設的，我都知道，不是問題，政策該檢討要檢討，但檢討是馬上就說：停！不要！還是有其他方法可以改進？我舉個例子，現在很多企業跟臺大 EMBA合作說幫它開班，但不是占他們一般的學生人數，而是用其他方式來滿足嘛！所以你們現在要改，我也沒意見，你要廢掉，我也沒意見，我現在講的就是我們真正面對問題，不要只從國防部的本位主義，我的投資效益如何、我的成效如何，一個制度的設計，就跟ROTC也是一樣，你要回想一下這些學生為什麼？有什麼誘因讓他覺得要選擇這條路？如果你只從國防部的角度，而不從學生的角度的話，坦白講，這也是一個風險很高的決定喔！這個決定決定下去之後兩頭空，到時候誰為他的人生負責？我問一下，現在有沒有學生退訓就退學的？有沒有？"],["劉次長沛智：有21員，目前有……"],["羅委員致政：他讀到大幾的時候退掉的？"],["劉次長沛智：對。"],["羅委員致政：大部分是讀到大幾的時候？"],["劉次長沛智：大部分都是大一、大二，大三、大四基本上不會退了。"],["羅委員致政：來不及了吧！因為他投資已經丟下去了嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：他大一、大二退完之後呢？重考大學？"],["劉次長沛智：對。"],["羅委員致政：認賠出場？"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：沒錯吧！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["羅委員致政：因為讀到大四的時候再後悔也來不及了。所以這個制度面的問題，坦白講，當時在規劃跟設計的時候的確有很大的問題。我沒有怪部長或是我們這些國防部的同仁，當時設計的時候真的最缺的就是學生端的需求跟誘因。當然，現在很多訓練的課程，包括入伍訓練和大學階段寒暑假的軍事訓練，坦白講，很「ㄍ一ㄥ」吔！等於他幾乎沒有寒暑假，這些制度面的檢討，我之所以要提這些，部長你也知道，ROTC也全部包括這4項，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長國正：沒錯。"],["羅委員致政：很操喔！這些學生真的很操！相較一般大學生，我講白一點，他已經沒有大學生的生活了啦，真的！一旦當我們又恢復到一年役期之後，上次我也請問過部長，我擔心會不會衝擊到ROTC吸收的這個情況，因為你們看嘛！雖然你們都說招獲率百分之百，不錯，但是你們的計畫是逐年下降啊，等到恢復到1年之後，我跟你保證一定會繼續下降，甚至搞到最後也要廢掉ROTC。在還沒有決定要廢之前，我們再好好檢討一下，到底問題出在什麼地方？不要只從投資效益跟成果來看，那個只是解決國防部的問題，並沒有解決學生的問題，他真的有興趣，但如果制度再好一點的話，我相信還是可以留住一些優秀的年輕人願意投入我們軍中的行列，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["羅委員致政：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員。","接下來請李德維委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.36409375,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.31096875,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.456593750000003,"end":34.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.877843750000004,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.19346875,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.830343750000004,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.63159375,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.837843750000005,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.525343750000005,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.119718750000004,"end":53.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.25471875,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.954718750000005,"end":55.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.41034375,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.41346875000001,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.96596875,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.44596875,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.95221875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.39096875,"end":74.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.57096875,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.62971875000001,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.00096875,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":96.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.91034375000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.66534375,"end":99.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.28096875,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.84596875000001,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.97659375,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.80721875,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.47784375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.35909375000001,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.60784375,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.21534375,"end":117.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.02096875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.03784375000001,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.45534375000001,"end":119.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.57284375,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":126.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.53034375000001,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.98534375,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02",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好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"148971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029cc4d69565d9f4efb92351fad24fff329c986728e607a032231f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林靜儀","委員發言時間":"11:59:32 - 12:16:38","影片長度":"00:17:06","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":1026,"end_time":"2023-12-11T12:16:38+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:59:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["林委員靜儀：（11時59分）謝謝主席，我們麻煩國防部邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：委員好。"],["林委員靜儀：部長午安。民眾對於我們的國防越來越關注，但是我也相信之前包含你還有退輔會的主委都說，多數的都是忠心為國家的，只有少數的害群之馬，可是如果害群之馬的案件一直頻繁的出現，而且沒有辦法以很快的速度讓民眾看到軍方的決心的話，那事情就很麻煩了！剛剛蔡適應委員講的是一個共諜案，我現在還要講另外一個國防大學的洩密案。在國防大學這個案子，這個教授是主持我們的「先進系統工程研究中心」，尤其是牽涉到我國這些非常重要的精密系統的布建和研究，可是根據報導，現在有調查出一些資料，當然你們等一下一定會講還在調查當中，我看到報導，現在的狀況就是，他掌管這些產業需求跟科技整合，然後自己再開民間公司跟中國技術合作，還在學校裡面開董事會，而且根據媒體的報導，這個過程長達10年。讓我很意外的事情是說，這一個在國防大學掌管我們這麼多重要產業需求跟系統研發的計畫主持人，他可以在外面開公司，這個公司跟中國有關係，跟中國有合作，而且他的公司董事會是在校內召開，那這個學校的內部控管是怎麼控管的？"],["邱部長國正：是，所以我跟委員報告，這的確是我們有一個很大的疏忽，就是需要檢討，但是我跟同仁講，並不是光檢討這個事情就了了，我們要有作為，已經移送法辦了，另外的行政調查、行政懲處，我們也同步在做。"],["林委員靜儀：這一位被移送法辦，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對，移送法辦。"],["林委員靜儀：那對校內其他相關人員有沒有行政懲處？"],["邱部長國正：一定要行政懲處，我們把相關的人員，從他主官領導職到他業管的幕僚通通抓出來，該辦就辦嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：部長，媒體說時間長達10年啦！"],["邱部長國正：對，沒有錯，10年。"],["林委員靜儀：你們掌握到是10年，在這10年中間……"],["邱部長國正：我知道的是從102年開始。"],["林委員靜儀：他的同事看著他在學校裡面來開自己公司的董監事會，然後知道他外面有公司，對這個東西，大家都沒有意見，大家都覺得沒有關係，那就是整個系統的問題了！"],["邱部長國正：所以這個東西就很嚴重，今天早上我特別有強調這一點，部長當然負全責啦！"],["林委員靜儀：那話再說回來，我們再往下追，就是說他所主持的……"],["邱部長國正：還要追嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：這個是往內，就是對這整個系統再去追嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["林委員靜儀：部長，你對於很多事情的態度都很強硬，可是這個長達10年都這樣子，你不能簡單的說我們都還要追，這個就都在查了嘛！不能這麼簡單的講。"],["邱部長國正：我沒有不強硬，我對這件事也都很強硬啊！所以他們本來沒有要把他送法辦，我說不要囉嗦、先送法辦再講。"],["林委員靜儀：本來沒有要送法辦是什麼意思？"],["邱部長國正：本來他們還說要檢討，等查明以後再這樣子，我想那等什麼呢？我這樣講就代表對這件事情很看重啦！他的單位也並沒有不看重，但是就礙於這個程序，認為我們要先瞭解，有一分證據講一分話，我想這是檢調單位他們自然會做的。"],["林委員靜儀：檢調當然是有一分證據講一分話。"],["邱部長國正：但是我們馬上要處理的，要快刀斬亂麻嘛！先斬再講。"],["林委員靜儀：但是各位是在軍方服務，我們在軍事系統裡面有這麼多重要的機密在他手上，如果你們要等到一個程度，我們都不知道出去多少了，再來就是這個東西會不會消滅掉一些相關的跡證嘛！那我再請問，在這10年來他手頭上掌管的這些相關的資料，根據你們現在的掌握，有沒有東西跑出去？"],["邱部長國正：現在要查嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：根據最新查到的資料，已經跑出多少東西了？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，從96年到今年為止，他有68件研究案，但是目前查察的結果是都沒有洩漏出去，但是我們還是會請檢調單位來針對這方面來查察。"],["林委員靜儀：你說沒有洩漏出去，他那麼乾淨？在這邊有研究案，在外面又開公司，公司又跟中國合作，分得那麼清楚，給中國一些簡單的小東西，然後我自己這邊研究國家大的東西，這麼厲害？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，他在接這個研究案的時候，都是會簽署保密協定，而且他的研究等級是屬於一個初步的學術研究範圍，跟國家科技機密是不會有直接的關聯。"],["林委員靜儀：什麼叫做初步的研究範圍？可以解釋一下嗎？所以你們說這是一個先進系統工程研究中心，可是根本沒有先進就對了，你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["崔院長怡楓：報告委員，有關於學校或者相關研究機構接的相關研究案，按照我們整個科技備便水準的等級，總共分成九級，其中第一級到第三級都叫做基礎研究、科學的探索，然後等到第四級以後才是要作為原型機後面的科技彙整或發展之用，學校承接的都是屬於技術備便水準三以下的相關案件，所以剛剛案內這位教授所接的這68案都是屬於這種科學探索……"],["林委員靜儀：他承包了國家很多的研究案，所以你們這些研究案都是最基礎的、都是沒有先進製程的、都是沒有前瞻性的，那這樣子我們幹嘛給你們預算？"],["邱部長國正：他剛剛已經講了，這有分類嘛！他說這幾樣是三級以內的，其他有往上提升，不代表……"],["林委員靜儀：所以你們現在調查的資料裡面，你們現在跟我講的意思就是說，你們所調查的事情只有他不應該違法兼職這樣子而已？"],["邱部長國正：我們沒有說只調查某個部分，既然送法辦了……"],["林委員靜儀：因為你剛剛跟我說這些都是一些比較不重要的，都是一些比較……"],["邱部長國正：不是，剛才是講他目前牽涉到六十多件案子，他們查到的是這樣。"],["林委員靜儀：對。"],["邱部長國正：其他不是講說通通三級以內，三級以上的有很多案子啊！"],["林委員靜儀：所以三級以上的案子他有沒有參與？"],["邱部長國正：因為剛剛委員問他有沒有洩漏出去，他們講的是三級以內他們查過了，並沒有洩漏出去。"],["林委員靜儀：部長，我請問的事情是在他所參與的案子裡面有沒有哪一些你們現在正在儘速的往下去阻斷或者是知道哪些東西已經洩漏出去了，你們手上有沒有這樣的紀錄跟資料？"],["崔院長怡楓：報告委員，現在這68案經查都是屬於三級以下，但是他還牽涉到兩個部分，第一個是有沒有把這些成果轉成他私人所用，或者甚至像剛剛講的是和對岸有關係，這個還要再查；第二個就是有關他跟大陸人士的接觸這些相關爭議研究案的部分，這也是後面要查察的重點。"],["林委員靜儀：我們現在從媒體所看到的報導，整個狀況並不是像你講的這麼簡單，當然我不喜歡看媒體的報導來跟你們做要求，或者是對媒體報導的東西都全盤接收，但是這件事情請你們到我的辦公室來，把你們現在手上調查的東西跟媒體所講出來的東西一個一個對起來，好不好？其實剛剛在蔡適應委員的質詢裡面有一個重點，我也非常的同意，就是我們希望你們有一個你們自己的系統，很快的、儘速的、以最快的速度針對這些可能的風險去做調查或者是控管，對於這個案子我最不能接受的是已經整整10年，如果說是在這一兩年發生的，你們整個系統上還抓不到，原來是最近的事情，我就不會怪你們怪到這麼嚴重，可是已經整整10年了，大家來講這個案子，你那麼輕鬆跟我說沒有啦！他這68個都是很簡單的案子，我覺得這樣我不能接受，從他的態度來講，表示這個人態度有問題啊！"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們從來沒有講得很輕鬆這樣來敷衍，我們把這個看得很嚴重。"],["林委員靜儀：是，你們看得很嚴重，只是你現在告訴我們他接觸到的都不是重要的事情。"],["邱部長國正：我的想法跟委員一樣，已經10年了，所以我就問幹部，我們怎麼能夠接受這種狀況？並沒有輕鬆，那該辦人就辦人嘛！我們也想要重辦，就要槍斃掉，我們也期望這樣子啊！"],["林委員靜儀：部長，你在國會裡面這樣直接講「槍斃掉」這三個字，我想你這是宣示性發言吧！"],["邱部長國正：不是，這是我們的期望嘛！因為這種事情的嚴重性，就我們的認知來講的話，這足以變成叛國，這不就叛國嗎？"],["林委員靜儀：在這麼多的案子裡面，我們都不斷的提醒你們民眾對你們的觀感，那你現在講叛國，我們在那時候跟你說有些事情有叛國的風險，你又講你認為沒有。"],["邱部長國正：我沒有講我認為沒有，對每樣事情我們要查證，但是這件事情就誠如剛剛委員講的，已經10年了，我也沒有辦法交代啊！所以我認為完全要依法究辦，而且辦得越重越好，我的觀念就是如此啊！"],["林委員靜儀：在辦得越重越好的過程裡面，其實也需要你們軍方在這個過程中提出相關的證據、相關的資訊，而且你們要提出相關的態度，在這個過程還是要講，當然是辦得越重越好，你現在是這樣講，但是到時候在辦的時候，你們提出來的證據是不是能夠讓他辦得越重越好，這是我們非常疑惑的事情啦！","好，最後再給我一點點時間，因為我還是很關注我們所謂替代役教召的部分，我知道替代役教召是屬於內政部主管，但是我先在這邊請問一下部長，到時候替代役的教召或替代役的訓練最終也是希望能夠補強我們在全民動員時相關的軍事戰備能力，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：替代役的分配單位沒有在軍中的。"],["林委員靜儀：我知道沒有在軍中啊！可是一旦發生戰亂或者是嚴重的危機，就像在發生水災的時候，通常也是請軍方來幫助民眾嘛！那回過頭來，我們現在講一旦國家發生緊急危難的時候，不會全部都是軍人在做事，對不對？你們在全民動員裡面，全民動員這件事情就是全部的人民都要來幫助國家、保護國家嘛！"],["邱部長國正：是啊！全民防衛動員。"],["林委員靜儀：所以我現在要請問你的議題就是，當在緊急的狀況之下，全部的人民都一起來協助軍人保護國家的時候，有一群人叫替代役嘛！是吧？"],["邱部長國正：他們有他們動員的管道。"],["林委員靜儀：他們平常不是你管的，我知道嘛！我要問內政部嘛！但是我現在要問你的事情是，站在國防部的立場，全部的人一起來保護國家，你們是不是也至少會期待說，那我們有一塊是國防部沒辦法做的，可以讓替代役來幫我們處理嘛！應該是吧？"],["邱部長國正：是這樣子啊！"],["林委員靜儀：是嘛！我就問你這句話而已嘛！"],["邱部長國正：好，那我講是嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：那我還要請問，在你們國防部的認知裡面，這一批替代役能夠協助的是哪些事，你們期待他們幫你們補足你們國軍體系沒有辦法做的是哪些事？"],["邱部長國正：除了作戰以外，只要能夠把我們的主任務、作戰任務完全由國軍來支援、來做，不要再去扯到別的地方去，還要我們派人的，我都樂見啊！"],["林委員靜儀：是嘛！我一直強調，我想全動署在這邊，我這兩年一直在問的事情是，如果國防部不能很清楚地來協助其他全動相關的部會去提出說我國防部負責這些事情，某一件事情要麻煩你，麻煩某一個部會成為我們的後援、back up我們，如果沒有辦法出現這麼一個明確訊息的話，那這些相關部會就是自己想辦法在那邊做嘛！我為什麼要這樣問？役政司副司長，我先請問，你們的替代役教召著重EMT救護能力，所以你們的假設是，一旦發生緊急戰端或者是緊急的這些狀況，我們的替代役，我們最缺的是醫療人員是不是？"],["李副司長昊陞：我想我們替代役的部分就是做後勤的輔助性工作。"],["林委員靜儀：對，所以你說你們首重EMT嘛！我請問，所以你們的意思就是說，一旦發生這些事情，全臺灣當時最缺乏的是整個……軍方最需要的後援是EMT嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：這個部分我們是把替代役的備役分成兩組，治安維護組跟防災救護組，防災救護組是負責災害的搶救跟緊急救護的部分。"],["林委員靜儀：災害搶救在你們的訓練裡面，你們怎麼做？"],["李副司長昊陞：在災害救護的部分跟緊急救護的部分，我們著重的是EMT-1，就是緊急救護，因為從109年開始，每個替代役男在成功嶺已經取得了EMT-1的證照，像這一次從109年到現在是3年，因為前面疫情的關係，我們沒辦法把他召回來訓練，112年已經滿3年了，我們把他召回來就是讓他的緊急救護證照的技術能一直延續。"],["林委員靜儀：我沒有反對大家都學會緊急照護，我現在問的事情是，你們把替代役召回來訓練EMT-1，這裡面有一些人可能已經取得相關的知能了，我們現在有一些人在自訓；第二個事情是，他們的訓練你的重點是放在這裡，所以你期待他們未來一旦發生狀況的時候，他們就是來做這件事情的。"],["李副司長昊陞：是。"],["林委員靜儀：你們對於替代役的認知跟概念是希望他們這麼做。"],["李副司長昊陞：是。"],["林委員靜儀：你們當初在召替代役的時候，全部都是醫療替代役嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：我想我們會把他的專長分成……"],["林委員靜儀：所以我一直在問你們，你們在專長……基本上，我期待你們的是專長的後備訓，所謂專長替代役的教召訓練，我現在是看到你們在媒體上說，你們都做EMT-1嘛！"],["李副司長昊陞：跟委員報告，我想我們今年做的主要的部分，因為我們……"],["林委員靜儀：我最後講一件事，因為我超過時間了，我不要 delay大家的時間。我講一個事情，今年臺中也做了相關的萬安演習對不對？我也有親自去看，我看了大家都很認真，沒有錯，一旦在緊急狀況之下，馬上設立那個分類站，就是我們講的檢傷分類站，檢傷分類站馬上分類，分一分，然後醫療救護車就去醫院了，對不對？"],["李副司長昊陞：是。"],["林委員靜儀：請問一下，假設我們今天發生戰災，醫院是正常運作嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：這個部分可能衛生福利部那邊會比較清楚。"],["林委員靜儀：我先問你，你用一個一般人的腦袋告訴我，發生戰災的時候，醫院是正常運作嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：應該很混亂。"],["林委員靜儀：所以你認為在這種狀況之下，他們被送去醫院之後，他們就能夠正常的被運作、被照顧嗎？"],["李副司長昊陞：我想站在替代役的立場……"],["林委員靜儀：大家不要只看到你們覺得……我這樣講，我要再次強調，替代役這一邊，我們要把人家召回來召訓，我們一直強調很重要的是，第一，他們要清楚知道他們要怎麼跟國防部配合，我一直強調，今天全動署署長也在這裡，部長也在這裡，我已經講非常多次了，國防部不要一個態度是說，一旦發生事情，我們自己會把自己的國家保護好，我們相信你們會把國家保護好，我們希望的是相關的其他人員不但不要添亂，還可以成為你們的back up，這個時候你們就必須清楚的讓各部會知道，我們平常有什麼人可以用，一旦發生事情的時候，這些人會出來承擔原來社會正常運作之下的什麼位置，所以不要自己想想說，那我們就來訓練 EMT-1好了，這個到時候……我就問你嘛，一旦發生這種狀況，EMT-1這些所謂的後備他們都會乖乖出來當EMT-1嗎？他們乖乖出來當EMT-1，檢傷分類完，好高興，我分類完了，醫院那邊是什麼狀況，你們知道嗎？整個你們完全就是一人只做一段的。","我還是這樣講，我對全動署的要求很高，這也不是一個署長可以完全承諾我們去跟其他跨部會做這種整合的，今天我在講的就是，你看你們光站在我面前，部長，內政部跟國防部，你們兩邊對於替代役這一群可以來協助國家在戰災，或者是緊急狀況之下可以做什麼事情的，根本沒有彼此之間的合作概念啊！你們國防部沒有把任務給他們，那他們怎麼做？但是也不能怪你們，因為……"],["邱部長國正：怎麼會沒有合作？沒有合作，今天兩個人怎麼會共同站在這裡……"],["林委員靜儀：我這樣問你們的時候，我就說……所以部長我請問，我剛剛一直在問嘛，在戰災的狀況之下，我們國軍最缺的是很多人幫你們做EMT-1嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們平常在訓練上各有各的部門，各有各的項目，我們把它做好，但今天講如果一旦作戰或什麼，那我現在就反問，假使在沒有敵情的狀況下，很平常……"],["林委員靜儀：我們當然知道平常，所以不用嘛……"],["邱部長國正：我們要訓練，把他訓練好，作戰有其他額外會干擾的。"],["林委員靜儀：所以作戰額外干擾的，我們今天做這些訓練，一旦發生作戰額外的狀況之下，我剛剛講的這一批替代役，你平常做這件事情在幹什麼……"],["邱部長國正：我們先把目前平靜的狀況下做好，做好以後，其他狀況加進去，比方說炸彈來的時候怎麼辦，這都是額外一點一點加的。"],["林委員靜儀：所以這個東西就是我一直說，你們這個替代役的訓練裡面，今天我沒有怪你們任何一個部會，我是說你們兩個部會之間的整合跟任務方向，拜託要用這個方式來看我們的訓練，這些年輕人回來受訓，他們期待的是受到對國家有幫助的訓練。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，不用拜託，全動署成立的目的何在？就是整合各部會嘛！"],["林委員靜儀：全動署你有整合各部會嗎？"],["邱部長國正：你問問看。"],["李副司長昊陞：我們都有密切的……"],["白署長捷隆：替代役的所有精進方案、訓練各方面，我們大小會議都有參與，都密切合作。"],["林委員靜儀：你們給他們什麼訊息？你們給了他們什麼……"],["主席：會後跟林委員講一下。"],["白署長捷隆：是、是、是。我就簡單報告……"],["林委員靜儀：你們在這邊跟我講都說有，我剛剛這樣問就是沒有，我不要占大家的時間，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，詳細的義務役的這一塊來講……替代役這一塊，義務役其實加上民防演習、民防訓練，這邊大家都在質疑會不會影響，其實變成主戰部隊的時候，大家都是亂啦！就是另外一個指揮體系嘛！替代役在這當中是怎麼訓練的？未來怎麼加入整個作戰演練當中？你們自己去規劃一下，好不好？"],["白署長捷隆：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：接下來請羅致政委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.16596875,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.429718750000003,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.355968750000002,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.672843750000006,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.35034375,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.89284375000001,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.63096875000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.18346875,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.74284375,"end":101.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.63534375,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.02659375,"end":122.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.86971875,"end":113.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.42659375000001,"end":114.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.61221875000001,"end":114.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":117.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.69534375,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.42909375,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.77034375,"end":137.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.39346875,"end":141.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.24096875,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.80596875,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.89034375,"end":143.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.90721875,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.95784375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.97471875000002,"end":146.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.89409375,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.03596875000002,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.11909375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.46471875,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.84846875000002,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.32471875000002,"end":173.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.69159375,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.84721875000002,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.06221875,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.79596875000001,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.65596875,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.76971875,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.93346875,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.53659375,"end":198.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.97034375,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.36221875,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.96971875000003,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.03721875000002,"end":203.47596875000002},{"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外面開公司這個公司跟中國有關係跟中國有合作而且他的公司董事會在校內召開這個學校內部控管是怎麼控管的?"},{"start":109.199,"end":138.551,"text":"所以我跟委員報告這的確啊說我們要很大一個疏忽啊就是檢討但我跟同仁講不講光檢討就了了我作為已經移送法辦了例外的行政調查行政懲處我們同步在做這一位他移送法辦嘛對不對那行政懲處對校內其他相關人員有沒有行政懲處一定要行政懲處我們把這個相關人員從他主觀領導職到他業管的幕僚通通抓出來那該辦就辦吧不是部長那如果"},{"start":139.071,"end":160.94,"text":"媒體說十年啊對沒有錯你們講過是十年這十年中間我們知道就從102年開始同事看著他在學校裡面來開自己公司的董監事會然後知道他外面有公司這個東西大家都沒有意見大家都覺得沒有關係那就是整個系統的問題了所以這東西又很嚴重所以今天早上我特別有強調這一點"},{"start":162.501,"end":163.242,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":178.113,"end":197.553,"text":"你對於很多事情態度都很強硬可是這個十年這樣子你不能簡單說我們這還要追嘛這個就已經都在查了嘛不能這麼簡單講我對這件事也都很強硬啊所以他本來沒有要送法單我講你不要囉嗦本來沒有要送法單是什麼意思本來要檢討、查明以後再這樣子我想那要等什麼呢"},{"start":199.028,"end":200.389,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":215.879,"end":233.664,"text":"但是各位在軍方服務嘛,我們在軍事系統裡面這麼多重要的機密在他手上,你等到來,你等到一個程度我們都不知道要出去多少,再來這個東西會不會消滅掉一些相關的跡證嘛。那我再請問回來,現在他手頭上掌管的這些相關的資料這10年,你們現在手頭上掌握有沒有東西跑出去?"},{"start":235.37,"end":258.012,"text":"現在有查嗎?現在最新的這些資料跑出多少東西了?各位委員包括他目前從1996年到今年為止還有68件的研究案但目前查查都是沒有洩漏出去但是我們還是會請警調單位來沒有洩漏出去他手上他那麼乾淨這邊有研究案這邊開公司公司這邊跟中國有合作我分得那麼清楚給中國一些簡單的小東西然後我自己這邊研究國家大的東西這麼厲害"},{"start":259.558,"end":261.941,"text":"什麼叫做初步的研究範圍?可以解釋一下嗎?"},{"start":279.17,"end":297.98,"text":"所以你們講說它是一個先進系統工程研究中心根本沒有先進就對了你的意思是這樣子報告委員有關於學校或者相關的研究機構接的這個相關的研究案按照我們整個科技備變水準的等級總共分成九級其中第一級到第三級都叫做基礎研究"},{"start":298.72,"end":302.662,"text":"他這邊承包國家很多研究案欸所以你們這個研究案都是最基礎的都是沒有先進製程的都是沒有前瞻性的"},{"start":324.394,"end":327.216,"text":"所以你們現在調查的資料裡面你們現在給我的意思就是說你們只調查的事情是他不應該違法兼職這樣子而已?"},{"start":340.905,"end":344.408,"text":"部長,我請問的事情是他現在所參與的案子裡面有沒有哪一些你們現在競速的正在往下去"},{"start":369.406,"end":397.72,"text":"主段或者是知道哪些東西已經洩露出去了,你們手上有沒有這樣的紀錄跟資料?委員現在這68案經過查都是屬於三級以下,但是他還牽扯到兩部分,第一個有沒有把這些的成果轉成他私人的用,或者是甚至跟剛剛講對岸的相關關係,這個要查。那第二個就是他有關於跟大陸人士的接觸這些相關爭議專案的部分,這也是後面要查查的重點。"},{"start":398.28,"end":418.945,"text":"我們現在媒體上看到的報導的狀況不是像你講的這麼簡單當然我們不喜歡看著媒體來跟你們做要求或者是把媒體的東西全部都全盤接收但是這件事情請你們回到我們辦公室來跟我們把你們現在所謂調查的東西跟媒體現在講出來的東西一個一個對起來好不好其實剛剛蔡司穎委員的質詢裡面有一個重點我也非常同意就是"},{"start":419.785,"end":440.12,"text":"我們希望你們自己在這邊有一個你們自己的系統很快的、盡速的、最快的速度去把這些可能的風險去做調查或者控管這個案子我最不能接受的是整整十年你如果說這一兩年你們整個系統上還抓不到原來是最近的事情我不會怪你們的怪到這麼嚴重你整整十年的話那這樣子"},{"start":441.261,"end":462.589,"text":"大家來講你跟我那麼輕鬆講說沒有啦他這68案都很簡單的案子我覺得這樣不能接受這就是他的態度上面來講表示這個人態度有問題啊我們從來沒有講很輕鬆啊我們把這個人看得很嚴重你們看得很嚴重只是你現在告訴我們說他接觸到都不是重要的事情我就問幹部我們整個哪個人能夠接受這種狀況沒有輕鬆那該辦人辦人嘛我們現在重辦就要槍斃掉我們也期望這樣子啊"},{"start":470.748,"end":476.631,"text":"部長你在國會上面你這樣直接講槍斃掉這三個字我想你這個是宣誓性發言吧?對我們的認知來講的話足以變叛國嘛這不就叛國嗎?我們這麼多的案子裡面我們都不斷提醒你們民眾對你們的觀感那你現在講叛國一旦我們那時候跟你講說有些事情有叛國的風險你又講的說沒有你認為沒有?"},{"start":494.039,"end":494.961,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":507.777,"end":534.672,"text":"在辦得越重越好的過程裡面其實也需要你們軍方去在這個過程中你們要提出相關的證據相關的資訊而且你們要提出相關的態度在這個過程還是要講辦得越重越好當然是這樣子你現在這樣講但是到時候在辦的時候你們提出來的證據是不是能夠讓他辦得越重越好是我們非常疑惑的事情啦好我最後再給我一點點時間喔因為我還是很關注我們在所謂替代一教招的部分喔我知道替代一教招是屬於內政部管理但是我先在這邊請問一下部長"},{"start":535.692,"end":541.981,"text":"提待役到時候提待役的教招或提待役的訓練最終也是希望能夠補強我們的全民動員的時候的這個相關的軍事戰備能力對不對部長"},{"start":547.533,"end":564.97,"text":"我知道沒有在軍中啊一旦發生戰亂或者是嚴重的危機的時候就像水災的時候通常也是請軍方來幫助民眾嘛那回過頭來我們現在講一旦國家發生緊急危難的時候不會全部都是軍人在做事嘛"},{"start":565.891,"end":582.703,"text":"對不對?你們在全民動員裡面有全民動員這件事情就是全部的人民都要來幫助國家保護國家嘛所以我現在請問你的議題是說站在當緊急狀況之下全部的人民都來一起協助軍人保護國家的時候有一群人叫替代役嘛是吧?"},{"start":583.927,"end":609.165,"text":"他平常不是你管,我知道嘛,我要問內政部嘛但是我現在問你的事情是站在國防部的立場全部的人一起來保護國家你們是不是也至少會期待說那我有一塊是什麼我國防部沒辦法做的是替代役來幫我們處理的嘛,應該是吧是嘛,我就問你這句話而已嘛那我請問說這個時候你們在國防部的認知裡面替代役的這一批"},{"start":610.526,"end":629.722,"text":"他們能夠協助的是哪些事?你們期待他們幫你們補足你們國防體系、國軍體系沒有辦法補足的哪些事?除了作戰以外,任何對我們只要能夠把我們主任務、作戰任務完全由國軍來支援、來做,不要再去扯到別的地方去,還有我們派人的,我都樂見啊。"},{"start":630.503,"end":631.804,"text":"我為什麼要這樣問?那個副司長嘛,醫生司"},{"start":661.069,"end":675.109,"text":"我先請問你們的替代役叫招著重EMT救護能力所以你們的假設是說一旦發生緊急戰端或者是緊急的這些狀況我們的替代役我們最缺的是醫療人員是不是?"},{"start":676.308,"end":704.273,"text":"我想我們這個部分替代的部分就是做後勤的輔助性工作對,所以你說你們手中EMT嘛我請問所以你們的意思就是說一旦發生這些事情全台灣當時最缺乏的是整個整個在軍方最需要的後援是EMT嗎?我們這個部分我們把替代的備役分成兩組治安維護組跟防災救護組那防災救護組他就負責災害的搶救跟緊急救護的部分"},{"start":705.328,"end":729.941,"text":"那災害搶救在你們的訓練裡面你們怎麼做?所以呢我們災害救護的部分跟緊急救護的部分所以我們著重EMT-1就是緊急救護因為他們從109年開始他們每個替代人在成功年已經取得了EMT-1的證照像這一次我們109到現在3年因為前面疫情的關係我們沒辦法把他召回來訓練112年已經滿3年了我們召回來就是讓他的緊急救護證照的技術"},{"start":736.345,"end":764.104,"text":"我沒有反對大家都學會緊急照護我現在問的事情是你們把替代役招回來訓練EMT-1這裡面有一些人他可能已經取得了相關的智能了我們現在有一些人在自訓第二個事情是他們訓練你的重點放在這裡所以你期待他們未來一旦發生狀況的時候他們就會來做這件事情的你們對於替代役的認知跟概念是希望他們這麼做你們當初在招替代役的時候全部都是醫療替代役嗎?"},{"start":765.044,"end":767.345,"text":"我現在是看到你們在媒體上說你們都做EMT-1"},{"start":782.381,"end":805.416,"text":"我想我們今年做的主要的部分就是跟委員報告就是說因為我們一百...我最後講一件事情因為我超過時間我不要delay大家的時間我講一個事情啦今年台中我們也做了相關的這個外安演習嘛對不對我也有去親自去看我也看了大家很認真沒有錯一旦緊急狀況之下好那個什麼馬上設立那個分類戰救傷這個什麼我們講的減傷分類戰減傷分類戰馬上分類分一分救護車去醫院了對不對"},{"start":812.982,"end":831.66,"text":"請問一下,假設我們今天發生戰災,醫院是正常運作嗎?我先問你,你用一個一般人腦袋告訴我,發生戰災的時候醫院是正常運作嗎?所以你認為這種狀況之下,因有因有送去醫院,他們就能夠正常的被運作、被照顧嗎?"},{"start":835.993,"end":847.723,"text":"大家不要只看到你們覺得我這樣講我再次強調替代役這一邊我們要把人家回來招訓我們認我們一直強調很重要第一他們要清楚知道他們怎麼跟國防部配合"},{"start":848.803,"end":876.934,"text":"我一直強調所以我今天全動數署長也在這部長也在這我已經講非常多次了國防部不要一個態度說我一旦發生事情你們就小心我們自己會把自己的國家保護好我們相信你們會把國家保護好我們希望的是相關的其他人員不但不要添亂還可以成為你們的back up那這個時候你們就必須要清楚讓各部會知道我們平常有什麼人可以用一旦發生事情的時候這些人會出來承擔原來社會正常運作之下的什麼位置"},{"start":878.243,"end":892.966,"text":"所以不要自己想想說那我們就來訓練EMT-1好了這個到時候我就問你嘛一旦發生這種狀況你EMT-1這些守衛後輩他們都會乖乖出來當EMT-1嗎?然後乖乖出來當EMT-1檢查分類完哦好高興我分類完了醫院那邊是什麼狀況你們知道嗎?"},{"start":894.963,"end":920.858,"text":"整個你們完全就是一人只做一段的我還是這樣講權動署這邊我對你們的要求很高這也不是一個署長可以完全承諾我們去跟其他跨部會做這種整合的今天我在講就是你看你們光站在我面前內政部跟國防部你們兩邊根本就是對於替代這一群可以來協助國家在戰災或者是緊急狀況之下可以做什麼事情的根本沒有彼此之間的合作概念啊"},{"start":921.698,"end":922.659,"text":"我跟委員報告平常在訓練當中各有各的部門各有各的項目我們把它給做好"},{"start":944.378,"end":971.678,"text":"但堅強,如果一旦作戰又弱了,那我現在我就反問吧,假如在沒有敵情的狀況下,很平常﹖我們當然知道平常可以不用嘛﹖我們要訓練,把它訓練好,作戰有其他額外會干擾的。所以作戰額外干擾的,我們今天做這些訓練,那一旦發生作戰額外的狀況之下,我剛剛講,JPT大概你平常做這件事情在幹什麼?我們先把目前平健的狀況下把它做好嘛,做好以後,其他狀況加進去,如果再急救的話,炸彈來了怎麼辦?"},{"start":974.388,"end":991.658,"text":"所以這個東西就是我一直說你們這個替代役的訓練裡面今天我沒有怪你們任何一個部會我是說你們兩個部會之間的整合跟任務方向拜託要用這個方式來看我們的訓練這些年輕人回來受訓他們期待的是受到對國家有幫助的訓練"},{"start":992.398,"end":1010.089,"text":"各位委員沒有必要拜託,全眾署成立目的何在?就整合各部會嗎?全眾署你有整合各部會嗎?其他一的所有的精進方案、訓練各方面,我們大小會議都有參與,都密切合作,跟委員報告。你們給了他們什麼資料?"},{"start":1017.503,"end":1017.843,"text":"憲政部委員"}]}},{"id":"148963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029edd171281dd6162792351fad24fff329c986728e607a032267be5a84947bdd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡適應","委員發言時間":"11:47:12 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11:59:19","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":727,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:59:19+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:47:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["蔡委員適應：（11時47分）謝謝主席。能不能請部長就備詢台？"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員適應：部長，我想請問一下，您曉不曉得高檢署在11月22日起訴了一個共諜案？"],["邱部長國正：我知道。"],["蔡委員適應：你知道總共幾位被起訴嗎？"],["邱部長國正：現役的有七個。"],["蔡委員適應：我覺得滿嚴重的！"],["邱部長國正：是滿嚴重的。"],["蔡委員適應：我唸一下這幾位的名字，陳裕炘、蕭翔云、謝秉成、謝孟書、何信儒、洪睿洋、康奕彬……等，都在陸軍相關單位。"],["邱部長國正：我剛剛也有講過，有退役也有現役，現役有7位……"],["蔡委員適應：我為什麼這樣講？因為這是最近這兩年所發生的狀況，我先請問部長，這個案子是誰發現的？"],["邱部長國正：我們的官兵發覺有異後就報告，然後就起案、往下追所追出來的。"],["蔡委員適應：什麼時候立案？"],["邱部長國正：立案……"],["陳局長育琳：5月份。我們今年5月掌握到不法事證就起案了。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有移給國安局嗎？還是調查局？"],["陳局長育琳：是，檢調共辦。"],["蔡委員適應：我問過調查局，他們說是他們起案，不是你們起案的！"],["陳局長育琳：我們有接獲檢舉，國安單位也有接獲檢舉。"],["蔡委員適應：我的瞭解好像……部長，你要確認一下！我瞭解的好像是檢調先瞭解這個案子後，才回過來通知國防部相關單位！"],["邱部長國正：不是！一開頭我們知道這些訊息以後，有提供，我們也有查，而且還擴大！擴大以後就帶出一些問題來！我們沒有要搶哪個先後……"],["蔡委員適應：我覺得這點很重要！部長，你沒有要搶先後，可是就我國會議員的立場來看，我覺得這件事情很嚴重！"],["邱部長國正：是很嚴重啊！我們也……"],["蔡委員適應：我所謂的很嚴重是，第一，軍中有保防系統，但他不是一個人，這是像肉粽一樣一整串的共諜案。如果不是軍中保防先發現，而是由法務部調查局桃園市調查處跟國安工作站先發現的話，那我覺得這問題很嚴重！"],["邱部長國正：哪個先發覺的？我請保防安全處處長來報告。"],["簡處長熒宏：向委員報告，在110年時國安單位接獲通報，有檢舉人檢獲另外一條線索，本部在110年也有相關一條線索，我們報請國安局統合之後發現，這兩個案的線索有關聯性，所以一起合併辦理共同偵辦。以上。"],["蔡委員適應：這是你的說明，但是我理解到的跟你說的完全顛倒。","部長，我講此事是希望部長去瞭解一下。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，不管哪一個先發覺，但我們在追……事實……"],["蔡委員適應：當然事後需要追，我要講的意思是，這件案子裡面，其中幾個比較嚴重的，部長，內容你都看過沒有？"],["邱部長國正：我概略知道，我沒有逐條看，但是他們把檢方的起訴書……"],["蔡委員適應：部長可以詳細看一下檢方起訴書的內容，裡面有提到什麼事情……"],["邱部長國正：他們有跟我講，是。"],["蔡委員適應：提到化學兵的少校把化學兵的相關編制表送給中國，其中有一位謝孟書還跟中國講好了，要駕駛CH-47逃到中國去，中間還到泰國去跟他們談過相關的事情，然後還發虛擬貨幣給他；還有一個何信儒，花防部的少校作戰官，把花東防衛的固安計畫傳給中國；還有一個洪睿洋104旅的，把陸軍司令部的訓練計畫等等送到中國去；還有一個叫康奕彬的，金防部守衛大隊的情報官，把金門作戰計畫的相關資料送入中國，這些資料在起訴書中寫得非常清楚，然後有些都是你們核定的極機密，120年以後才能夠解密的，這真的是軍中很嚴重的一個醜聞案，因為涉及這麼多人，不是只有一個耶！透過一個退役軍官陳裕炘就可以聯絡到這麼多人，有化學兵科的、有航特部的、花防部的、金防部的、裝甲旅的，還有臺南守備隊。","部長，我覺得此事不是大概看過知道內容就好了，我覺得要嚴查這件事情，真的是要嚴查這件事情。起訴書裡面寫得非常多，看完之後我真的是驚心動魄，寫小說都沒有那麼會寫啊！所以我為什麼第一個問題先問部長，這個案子是誰發覺的？如果今天國防部在這個事情是第二個後面才知道的，而是檢調，法務部調查局跟國安工作站先瞭解的話，那我們應該要去瞭解軍中建立的保防體系為什麼會這樣？一個中校分隊長已經跟人家談到什麼時候要駕駛直升機過去了，部隊裡面有沒有人知道這件事情？有沒有人知道這件事情？國防部有第一時間先把位置換掉，然後移請調查嗎？還是檢調直接衝到營區裡面去抓人，把人帶走了，我們才知道原來這個人有涉案？或者是說金防部的，或者是我們那個花防部的把資料都送出去，而且用什麼，用Telegram的軟體送出去，我們軍中保防不是強調手機都必須要做管制嗎？","部長，這些事情我們以前都談過，為什麼他會用了這些東西，還有在使用虛擬貨幣？然後有規定營區不能帶其他非相關的手機，都要保存起來嘛，這裡面寫得很清楚啊！對岸中國的相關人員還把特別的手機交給這些人，讓他們用這些特別的手機來翻拍，然後裡面還寫到什麼？還寫到我們裡面有很多相關保管資料的軍官，沒有注意資料就外洩出去了，我不曉得是真的沒有注意還是故意沒有注意？我就問部長一件事情，你說你有瞭解，來，你們這個案子到目前為止，你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我們當初偵查以後一有這種狀況，我們第一個移送法辦以外，先做一個職務調整，該要撤的就撤了……"],["蔡委員適應：這些人是被調查以後才法辦，還是之前就先……"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我們發覺以後一方面送辦，再一方面我們行政就開始處理了。"],["蔡委員適應：好，部長你這樣講，我想請教你一個問題，那個謝孟書是被檢調逮捕之後才調整單位，還是之前就調整單位？"],["邱部長國正：先調整吧？先調整，通常都還是先調整。"],["蔡委員適應：好，第二個，何信儒呢？"],["邱部長國正：要一個一個講啊？你們知不知道？"],["蔡委員適應：我就問啊！是先調整單位，還是已經直接被逮捕了之後才調整單位？知不知道？"],["邱部長國正：先調整了嗎？就你們是不是要叫……"],["蔡委員適應：何信儒，花防部少校作戰官。"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，在獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後，我們是先不可以有任何的動作，因為整個已經進入檢調的階段，但是這……"],["蔡委員適應：所以你的意思是說，你們已經知道他有問題，但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了？你的意思是這樣子？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們事先掌握，對，那……"],["蔡委員適應：好，那為什麼剛才講航特部那個就說先調職，這又邏輯不通了嘛！"],["邱部長國正：它各單位不一樣嘛，我的要求講的是要先調整職務，但並沒有好像講的這個明目張膽的，先調整開之後調查，這個我們不一定……"],["蔡委員適應：剛才參謀長的講法是說怕影響到讓他知悉到，讓他發現……"],["邱部長國正：不，但是有些工作已經不准他接觸了，所以……"],["蔡委員適應：那比如說像我問到的，金防部守備大隊康奕彬呢？"],["陳局長育琳：報告委員，我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控，每個個案不一樣，方便的話，我們會後派人跟您做說明。"],["蔡委員適應：好，那我想問一下，目前檢調查到的，我只講查到的，沒查到的我不知道，查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件？你們有統計吧？有嘛，我只問總共多少件？"],["陳局長育琳：因為目前起訴之後，現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"],["蔡委員適應：起訴之後高等法院要開庭審理，不是在偵查，裡面已經寫得很清楚，檢調目前查獲的有多少件機密或極機密的案子，上面有寫，我只問說上面有寫，你們知道多少件嗎？第一個你一定要知道多少件，你才能夠做損害控管吧，所以我現在問一下國防部的，有人可以告訴我，總共多少件極機密就好了，否則你怎麼做損害控管呢？"],["邱部長國正：這個件數……"],["蔡委員適應：好，部長，我問到這邊，我時間到了。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，要講件數的話，我們還要詳細的查，了解之後再跟你回報。"],["蔡委員適應：沒關係，部長，我建議這樣子，因為這個事情還蠻重要的，我這個不是在……"],["邱部長國正：是蠻重要的，我沒有等閒看之。"],["蔡委員適應：對，我問這個不是在苛責部長，因為國防部的人……"],["邱部長國正：我不怕人家苛責……"],["蔡委員適應：國防部的人那麼多，我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作，我剛剛就提到，其中有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情，有沒有落實到營區的管理，這是重要的事情，比如像剛剛我們提到的，為什麼Telegram會有其他的手機會帶到營區裡面去，而且裡面養的是所謂的作戰官、情報官，理論上這是最應該要恪遵相關規定的職務的人，這些人他本身都違法的話，那代表什麼？代表他的主官管可能平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛，我講的這些就是我們要瞭解的狀況。","第二個狀況是，事情發生之後，國安跟檢調的相關單位在調查完之後，都有把這些內容在起訴書中寫出來，包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常清楚的知道，我有多少極機密的案件、我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩，甚至其實是不止的，因為他可能只講了這五個，可能有六個、七個、八個，另外我們沒查到的這些相關涉案人士就不講出來，在這種狀況之下，各個單位你要不要重新修正？這些都是要做的事情嘛！我剛剛只是問了一個問題說，有幾件案子要修正？好，那也許你覺得這又是機密了，我只是說檢調的起訴書上已經有寫多少件了啊！","拜託部長，這件事情從事情發生至今剛好都是在你任內發生的，從110年開始，您就任部長之後就開始陸陸續續發生這些事情，我認為這是非常重要的一件事情，我也拜託部長，把這個起訴書的內容研析清楚。就我的理解，你們現在去調相關的整個資料應該是可以調得到，我建議你們，除了起訴書之外，檢調相關的偵查報告內容，還有加上我們國防部自己的內部調查，都把它彙整清楚，因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張、太嚴重了，裡面幾個小兵、小官、士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片，我覺得那就算了，裡面有很多的校級軍官跟尉級軍官去拍了我們重要的極機密資料，然後把它傳給中國去，這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啦！沒有發現的還不曉得有多少件，所以拜託部長，這件事情好好的瞭解調查清楚。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。","接下來請林靜儀委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以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來你們這個案子到目前為止你們調查之後有多少極機密的案件需要重新修正"},{"start":422.403,"end":449.24,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們當初審查以後一有這種狀況,我們第一個一送法辦以外先做一個職務調整,該要撤就撤了。這些人是被調查以後才法辦,還是之前就先...發掘以後,一方面送辦,再一方面我們行政局開始處理。那這樣好,部長你這樣講我想請教你一個問題啊,那個卸謀書是被檢調逮捕之後才調整單位,還是之前就調整單位?先調整吧。"},{"start":450.367,"end":451.688,"text":"二、何姓盧花防部少校座三官"},{"start":468.722,"end":496.013,"text":"各位委員報告在這個獲悉保防安全他們相關的報告之後那我們是要不可以先有任何的動作那因為整個已經是進入減調的階段那但是所以你的意思是說你們已經知道他有問題但是你們沒有動他的職務就對了我們的意思是這樣子那為什麼剛才講了一個航特部就說先調職這又邏輯不通了吧"},{"start":497.143,"end":499.224,"text":"那比如說像我問到的那金防部守備大隊抗疫兵呢?"},{"start":521.141,"end":537.167,"text":"報告委員,我們在調查的過程當中有做相關的損害管控,每個個案不一樣,那方便的話我們會合派人跟你做說明。目前檢調查到的,我只講查到的,沒查到的我不知道,查到的機密跟極機密的部分總共多少件?你們有統計吧?有嗎?我只問總共多少件?"},{"start":543.168,"end":547.391,"text":"因為目前起訴之後現在高等法院還在偵查當中。"},{"start":575.546,"end":582.528,"text":"否則你怎麼損壞空管呢?國防部長我問到這邊我時間到了齁。國防部的人那麼多啦齁。我們每一個單位都有每個人負責的工作。"},{"start":598.474,"end":617.593,"text":"那我剛剛就提到就是說這個裡面有一些軍中的保防是重要的一件事情有沒有落實到營區的管理這是重要的事情比如像剛剛我們提到的為什麼Telegram或有其他手機會帶到營區裡面去而且裡面講的是所謂的作戰官、情報官這個理論上是最應該要克軍相關我們規定的職務的人馬"},{"start":618.894,"end":646.556,"text":"好,那這些人他本身都違法的話那代表什麼?代表他的主觀觀可能會平常沒有在注意這件事情嘛那我想這些就是我們要了解的狀況第二個狀況是事情發生之後國安檢調的相關單位在調查完之後都有把這些檢調的起訴書寫出來我包括我們自己內部的調查裡面就要非常的清楚知道我有多少極機密的案件我有多少機密的案件有可能外洩甚至其實是不只的啊"},{"start":647.369,"end":648.81,"text":"二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員二、審查本院委員"},{"start":668.129,"end":688.17,"text":"拜託部長,這件事情,從事情發生,剛好都是在任內的事情發生的,從110年開始,您就任部長之後開始錄製的這件事情發生,我認為這是非常重要的一件事情。那我也拜託部長,把這個起訴書的內容延期清楚。我的理解啦,你們現在去調相關的整個的資料應該是可以調得到啦。"},{"start":689.629,"end":716.454,"text":"我建議你們把除了起訴書之外相關檢調的偵查報告內容還有加上我們國防部自己內部調查都把它彙整清楚因為我覺得這個案子實在太誇張太嚴重了裡面幾個小兵小官士官跟阿兵哥說拍影片我覺得那就算了裡面有很多的校級軍官跟衛級軍官就拍了我們的重要的集機秘密資料把它傳給中國去這真的是很莫名其妙的事情啊"},{"start":718.108,"end":724.841,"text":"所以我要如果沒有發現的不曉得有多少件所以拜託部長這件事情好好的了解調查清楚以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"148962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029ded6a6973fc47989bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a0322b927b96357d7ed705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:33:11 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Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":670,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:44:21+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T11:33:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時33分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，請保險局局長上臺，讓主委先喝口水。"],["主席：好，請保險局施局長上臺備詢。"],["羅委員明才：今天大概是本屆這個會期最後一次委員會議了，我們要審慎來思考一下，究竟銀行、證券、保險等金融界，這幾年經營的情況有沒有上軌道。現在目前大概有幾家壽險公司跟產險公司，從過去20年到現在，整個資產規模變化非常非常大，我們知道局長在這個位置很辛苦的經營，也讓所有的業者可以說是大發財，整個金融整體，去年、今年算一算大概已經賺了7,500多億了吧，局長，你覺得他們這樣的表現是不是一個正常的發展？對於未來的話，因為你好像也快退休了，什麼時候退休？你可不可以集你一生的功力，趁最後幾次上臺的機會跟大家分享一下多年來的經驗。"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，我是明年退休，剛剛委員提到7,000多億的部分，應該是指整個金融產業，至於我們的部分，今年產、壽險都有獲利，但是獲利的程度應該還沒有那麼高。"],["羅委員明才：是，在產險的部分，現在都已經損益兩平了嗎？因為今年遭受很大的傷害。"],["施局長瓊華：今年到10月左右，整個稅後淨利大概是130億左右。"],["羅委員明才：產險的部分嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：初步自結的產險部分。"],["羅委員明才：那比較恢復了，請問產險有沒有還在虧損的或者會倒閉的？"],["施局長瓊華：產險的部分，在6月底的時候還有一家RBC沒有符合標準，但是到目前為止都已經提升到200以上了，產險的部分全部都符合法定標準。"],["羅委員明才：大概有二十幾家嘛，產險。"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["羅委員明才：壽險的部分呢？從大概20年前到現在，以前的規模很小，現在整個資產規模有多大？為什麼在這短短一、二十年會產生如此大的變化，是政策的支持嗎？因為我們看到買外國的國債及公債最多的其實就是壽險公司，一買就買好幾兆，手上的數字大概是買了多少兆？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，壽險業目前資產規模大概35兆左右。"],["羅委員明才：35兆？"],["施局長瓊華：對、對、對，國外投資的部分大概22兆左右，大部分，大概有九成多都是在固定收益、有價證券的部分。"],["羅委員明才：大概都是以什麼計價？美元還是歐元？"],["施局長瓊華：有九成左右是美元計價的，九成以上……"],["羅委員明才：九成以上？"],["施局長瓊華：九成以上的國外投資。"],["羅委員明才：對，我看還滿集中的，所以也要小心，海外的投資過去也曾經慘遭滑鐵盧啊！有人投資俄羅斯、有人投資以色列，對於壽險公司未來海外投資規範會不會有一個審核的標準？"],["施局長瓊華：我們都有訂規範啦，尤其是在整個風險控管的部分有要求壽險業對於投資面要進行相關的投資管理。"],["羅委員明才：好像也是有碰觸地雷的啊！"],["施局長瓊華：之前在2008年的時候，那時候也有一些投資虧損，但是現在各公司在整個投資上比過去的法令更行嚴謹，我想他們應該可以……"],["羅委員明才：總共是二十幾家壽險公司吧？"],["施局長瓊華：21家壽險公司。"],["羅委員明才：這21家壽險公司當中有沒有目前還是虧損的？"],["施局長瓊華：以目前來看的話，是有虧損的，比如說像我們後面有幾家RBC還沒有達到法定標準的公司。"],["羅委員明才：三家、五家比較後段班？"],["施局長瓊華：三家。"],["羅委員明才：有三家？這三家會不會倒啊？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，……"],["羅委員明才：他們增資好像都沒有增資欸！"],["施局長瓊華：有，有一些公司有增資，有一些公司也出售了不動產，然後也提升了出租率，所以在提升RBC上，他們目前都在努力當中。"],["羅委員明才：哪三家？"],["施局長瓊華：這三家就是宏泰、新光跟三商。"],["羅委員明才：三商已經增資了吧？"],["施局長瓊華：三商在上半年跟下半年都有增資。"],["羅委員明才：會不會再出狀況？"],["施局長瓊華：他們也在努力當中。"],["羅委員明才：是，我們覺得壽險公司良莠不齊，你看好的可以好到非常好，賺了很多很多的錢，而經營比較沒有上軌道的居然還會出現虧損，這個不曉得問題是出在哪裡，是因為它的營業限制項目嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：我們大概沒有特別限制哪一家的營業項目啦，有一些公司可能在投資上比較沒有表現的那麼好，有一些可能是業務上的影響。"],["羅委員明才：所以主要是投資方面沒有做好風控或者是投錯地方，比如說投到俄羅斯，結果一戰爭就虧了50億、60億、70億，到現在也還沒結嘛，帳還是掛在那邊。我們希望主管機關對這些壽險公司要特別注意，因為畢竟全民投保的利益是在這個地方，不能讓保戶到時候受到災害的時候要理賠也沒有辦法理賠。"],["施局長瓊華：是，委員我們會努力。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝施局長。"],["施局長瓊華：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：接下來請黃天牧主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上臺備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好，謝謝你。"],["羅委員明才：黃主委，你好。去年這樣算一算，金融整體的獲益超過7,500億，也大概是歷史的次高，面對這樣一個情況，應該都是養精蓄銳，可以說是兵強馬大，這時候更應該來要求所有的金融相關業者不要讓金融詐騙一再的發生吧，主委，有沒有什麼方法？除了主管機關的注意之外，銀行也要做點事啊，因為畢竟他們是第一線嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我們配合打詐平臺做了很多法規的調整，銀行在第一線都有配合，包括科技防詐都有在做。"],["羅委員明才：可是還是有詐騙的情況，層出不窮！"],["黃主任委員天牧：詐騙的原因很多，但是就金流阻詐部分，我們真的有努力在做，當然還需要委員多指導，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：金融詐騙變成全國民眾的十大痛惡之一，排名好像是第一還第二，大家覺得好像到處都是危險、處處是危機，可不可以拜託黃主委想辦法，看怎麼樣讓這一些危機化成轉機？不要讓大家一看到這些詐騙都人心惶惶。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員這個拜託我們承擔不起，這是我們應該要做的，而且我們要有同理心，因為每一個人都有可能被詐騙，所以我們在法規上都有在做，包括配合洗防法以及信用卡等方面。當然我想做的也許不見得符合大家的期待，我們會不斷地努力，但是可以看出我們幾乎每個月都有一些新的法規調整、新的制度修正，所以我們是不斷地在精進自己的作為。"],["羅委員明才：因為現在人也有，所以金融機構也有錢，要怎麼樣把防詐防護網安全的設立起來很重要，上一次……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們最近還把打詐績效放在公平待客機制的評核裡面。對不起！剛剛打斷您的講話。"],["羅委員明才：上一次財政部在網路上，居然變成詐騙集團利用的公家機關。你知道這件事嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：抱歉！我不太清楚。"],["羅委員明才：就是在網路上說財政部有什麼好康的，結果弄半天那個是假的！"],["黃主任委員天牧：金管會也常常被冒用，說他的錢放在金管會被扣留。"],["羅委員明才：金管會也被冒用詐騙嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，我看那個資訊說錢被金管會扣住要找誰，也把我們的名字放進去了。"],["羅委員明才：金管會扣錢有沒有還人家錢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們沒有扣錢。"],["羅委員明才：沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是假的。"],["羅委員明才：奇怪！為什麼這些歹徒敢在太歲爺上動土？他要打聽一下，黃天牧不是塑膠，也不是好惹的啊！有查出來是誰嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在我們既有機制上都有查，上週也公布了一些資訊，我們都有定期公布資訊。"],["羅委員明才：我希望要快狠準，真的要把整個打詐、防詐機制充分做好。我們希望所有臺灣的民眾在金融秩序方面可以安心，錢放在銀行是可以放心的，放在銀行裡面定存會生利息是可以領得到的，對銀行是有信心的，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：羅委員，能不能請你稍坐一下？我們很快就把它處理完。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。現在進行討論事項及臨時提案之處理。請議事人員宣讀今日審查「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」一案提案內容，另含臨時提案共一案。宣讀完畢之後就進行協商。現在請進行宣讀。","一、提案內容：","二、臨時提案：","金管會自2019年推動開放銀行（Open Banking）政策，採鼓勵業者以自願自律方式分三階段實施，2019年第一階段「公開資訊查詢」上線、2020年第二階段「消費者資訊查詢」上線，並擬於2023年12月前核備第三階段「交易面資訊」之自律規範及資安標準，進一步擴大實施第三階段服務。","查銀行公會制定之「銀行與第三方服務提供者合作之自律規範」，僅規定銀行在選擇第三方服務提供者（TSP業者）應該要注意的原則，包括要確保TSP業者的資本額、有資安能力、個資風險管理、遵循洗錢防制法等法規。實因TSP業者非金融機構，其主管機關為經濟部，金管會並無管轄權，故僅將查核責任歸責於銀行，倘未來開放銀行實施第三階段金融交易衍生金融消費爭議，恐不適用金融爭議解決機制。","爰要求金融管理監督委員會研議「跨部會監管開放銀行第三方服務提供者，制定完整金融爭議解決機制，確保金融消費者權益」，並於兩個月內提交書面報告。","提案人：林楚茵　　沈發惠　　鍾佳濱"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 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吧"},{"start":457.588,"end":476.562,"text":"主委有沒有什麼方法除了主管機關的注意之外銀行也要做點事啊因為畢竟他們是第一線嘛其實我們很多配合打詐平台做的法規的調整銀行在第一線都有配合包括科技防詐都有在做那可是還是有詐騙的情況"},{"start":478.353,"end":483.656,"text":"金融詐騙變成全國民眾覺得十大痛物之一大概是排名好像第一還第二大家覺得哇好像到處都是危險處處是危機可不可以拜託黃主委"},{"start":505.805,"end":515.411,"text":"想辦法看怎麼樣讓這一些危機化成轉機讓我們不要一看到這些詐騙都覺得人心惶惶"},{"start":517.642,"end":546.241,"text":"委員這個拜託我們承擔不起是我們應該要做的而且我們是同理心每一個人都有可能被詐騙所以其實我們在法規上包括配合洗房法包括我們自己對信用卡各方面我們都有在做當然我想做的也許不見得符合所有大家的期待我們會再不斷地再努力但是可以看出來我們幾乎每個月都有一些新的法規的調整新的制度的修正所以我們是在不斷地在精進自己的作為"},{"start":547.164,"end":551.032,"text":"因為現在人也有所以金融機構也有錢要怎麼樣來"},{"start":552.472,"end":579.309,"text":"把這個防詐的防護網把它安全的設立起來很重要我們最近還在公平待客中把那個打詐的績效放在公平待客的機制的評核裡面是對不起剛剛打斷您的講話上一次居然財政部還在網路上變成他是詐騙集團使用的一個公家機關你知道這件事嗎抱歉我不太清楚"},{"start":580.368,"end":601.635,"text":"他就是說在這個網址上財政部有什麼什麼什麼後康的還是什麼的結果弄半天那個是假的金管會常被冒用說他的錢放到金管會被扣留啊金管會也被詐騙嗎對啊我看那個資訊中也說錢被金管會扣住你要找誰找誰也把我們的名字放進去了"},{"start":601.872,"end":628.982,"text":"那儘管會扣錢有沒有還人家錢啊?我們沒有扣錢啊沒有那是假的是假的?奇怪那為什麼有這些歹徒他敢在太歲爺上動土他要打聽一下啊黃天牧也不是塑膠啊也不是好惹的啊那有查出來是誰嗎?我們在我們紀有記這上都有查我們上都也公佈了一些資訊我們定期都有公佈資訊"},{"start":630.677,"end":657.511,"text":"我希望說是要快很準把這個打詐防詐整個機制真的要充分的做好我們希望所有的民眾在臺灣在金融秩序方面大家是可以安心的錢放在銀行是可以放心的放在銀行裡面有定存還有升利息是可以領得到的是對銀行是有信心的好不好了解謝謝委員知道謝謝"},{"start":660.743,"end":667.976,"text":"好 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Banking開放銀行的第三階段，今天讓大家知道說自律規範即將要在年底前核備，可是大家質疑，第三階段其實最重要的就是客戶資金交易的服務，這部分目前自律規範是靠自律嗎？那第三方的業者（TSP）未來是誰來監管？目前有一個確定的方向嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：從以往到現在，包括任何委外，銀行如果跟哪個TSP業者服務，銀行就是要對這個TSP業者的行為去做負責，我們是督導銀行，銀行要對我們負責。"],["高委員嘉瑜：因為現在詐騙非常的猖獗，尤其是在第三階段涉及到金融交易資料等等這些訊息的時候，大家要擔心的就是如果銀行的自律發生了問題，或者是TSP有問題，就像現在很多的詐騙，其實都是一個內部、內神通外鬼互相的串聯，然後導致個資外洩的狀況。所以同時我們也發現，目前TSP業者所使用的Open Banking代登錄的機制，就是都用原網銀的驗證，也就是說這個TSP的業者可以取得客戶登錄第三方驗證的所有資料，而這個資料就是登錄銀行最重要的帳號跟密碼。在這種情況之下，如果只靠自律、只靠業者跟銀行之間的規範、自己之間彼此的自律，所造成的資安漏洞、客戶資料的外洩等等，這個到底要誰來負責？是銀行自己負責嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員您垂詢的很重要，我剛剛跟您報告，一個是銀行公會自律規範，一個是財經公司會訂定技術跟資安標準，尤其第三階段牽涉到交易面，資安標準會更高，包括前面幾位委員都對這部分有交代，我們會再去檢討。"],["高委員嘉瑜：對，其實過去同樣的包括im.B的事件，一旦大家發生問題的時候，一定都會回頭來問主管機關是誰？誰要負責？而這個時候，如果我們事先就把這個球都踢給銀行說他們來自律、他們自己負責，事後我們都說我們沒有相關的監管或是沒有相關的配套的時候，問題一旦發生，其實政府還是要承擔這個責任。所以目前TSP業者雖然他們都是新創，但是對於未來這些資安，金融等級的安控作業，他們有沒有辦法做到滴水不漏，避免資安的漏洞、個資的外洩，這個是對現在所有的客戶、使用者來講最在意的事情。","當然隨著金融科技化，能夠有這樣子一個Open Banking是大家期待的一個方向，可是同時如何來避免這些資料外洩？有很多的代登錄的機制曾經也被玉山銀行偵測到來源的IP是在國外，如果今天TSP的業者，它的IP是涉及到中國或者是間接中資，那這樣的狀況可不可以申請Open Banking？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員總括來說，您關心的事情非常重要，包括TSP本身資安的水準、銀行本身的資安水準、消費者保護等，這個都會在我們的規範中一併去考慮跟處理。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以剛剛我問到的，如果說TSP的業者跟中資是有關係的，而今天我們的客戶、臺灣的銀行這些資料，有可能包括剛剛所說的帳號、密碼，它可能藉此外流到TSP業者，那你光靠業者自律是遠遠不夠，包括國安、包括其他層面的問題才是今天我們也要考量的。現在我問的，如果TSP的業者後面有中資、有中國的IP等等的這些狀況，到底能不能介接？能不能適用我們的Open Banking？"],["黃主任委員天牧：您垂詢的地方當然是我們的顧慮，我們一定會在規範中或是審查中去做處理。"],["高委員嘉瑜：你沒有回答我們的問題嘛！因為包括現在的蝦皮，過去大家也質疑說它背後就是中資，還有抖音的問題等等，能不能申請介接呢？能不能來做Open Banking呢？因為依照我們個資法相關的規定，如果民眾每天登錄業者的app都顯示登錄成功，但是還會有一個是「非臺灣地區登錄」的警告，久而久之我們就會忽略說這個資料是不是被中國或外國入侵，因為長期以來你登錄都是這樣子的一個通知，所以後面其實就像狼來了，或者久而久之大家就忽略了對自己個資或資安保護的問題。所以現在就這個部分，其實有很多大家質疑的問題還沒有辦法得到釐清，但因為年底前就有可能會開放的情況之下，這部分到底什麼時候能夠有一個比較明確的規定？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我可能沒有講得很完整，很抱歉，我們是年底前完成它報來我們會審查，審查之後只是一個規範，規範在開放之後，還要真正的TSP業者或銀行向我們申請，這個還有一個過程。我剛剛說可能要到明年上半年，但是……"],["高委員嘉瑜：好，但是剛剛所質疑的啦，包括說中資或者是有涉及到國家利益、國安的問題，主管機關如果沒有辦法去監管、沒有辦法去瞭解的時候，這中間有沒有把個資傳送到其他的國家，還有被儲存到哪裡等等，這些我們有沒有一個監管的機制？未來會不會知道？會不會有這樣子的一個配套？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們現在就是有這些考慮，不過今天很感謝召委安排這樣一個報告，今天委員給我們的指導，我們會趕快去看看現在報來的銀行公會自律規範跟財經的資安技術標準，有沒有符合委員這樣的期待，如果沒有符合我們會去修正。"],["高委員嘉瑜：就是說後面的配套，剛剛所質疑的這些，都必須要有，能夠讓金管會隨時能夠掌握到底這些TSP業者有沒有外流到中國、後面有沒有中資，或者這個被資料下載之後，是不是確實按資安的規範，不會再被轉移到其他人的手上而造成個資外洩的疑慮跟風險，這部分一定要有明確的規範跟保證，也要有配套，大家才能夠放心，這個金管會是可以做到的嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，我們一定會準備好才上路，不會為了要上路而上路。"],["高委員嘉瑜：好，另外關於純網保，過去金管會一直告訴我們說「麻雀飛來，純網保很快就會有」等等，我想今天也很多人在關心，說了這麼久結果到現在卻是一場空，最後完全沒有任何一家純網保可以上路。現在金管會又說明年要捲土重來，保險局12月要評估，請問在原本條件這麼嚴格的一個狀況之下，未來會進一步放寬嗎？如果沒有放寬，又如何能夠保證明年會有純網保呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實原來我不認為那是嚴格，那本來就是大家對純網銀的期待，希望它有一個可以運行的商業模式，我們只是確定純網保也有一個可以運行的商業模式，我不覺得那一定是嚴的……"],["高委員嘉瑜：如果是這樣，為什麼沒有任何一家公司願意來做或是通過我們金管會的審查？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是因為它送來的資料，沒辦法證明它是可被執行的模式。"],["高委員嘉瑜：也就是說你認為它會虧損是不是？沒有獲利的空間嗎？什麼叫做無法證明它是可被執行的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是它跟異業合作的創新模式，沒有辦法得到審查委員認同，認為這樣一個模式將來是可以營運、可以獲利的。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以你就是認為它不會獲利嘛！那我們的純網銀也是虧損連連啊！虧損連連到現在，你當初認為它會獲利嗎？到現在還不是在虧損，那你還不是讓它過？那純網保對於民眾來講有更大的需求，現在很多的網路世代，民眾可能都會用網路去保純網保，需求上其實是有這樣的必要性可以去做比較，可以去做更多的這些配套。為什麼這個部分反而目前沒有看到任何一家願意來做的？而且在國際上我們有比較出來喔！數位化或保險科技在其他國家其實都已經是非常的普遍，但是在臺灣目前是一家都沒有，這種狀況其實是金管會的條件過於嚴苛？還是說臺灣市場的問題？到底問題出在哪裡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這幾年我們在網路投保上已經有大幅的開放，今年10月有開放保險公司做異業的合作跟電子商務的開放，目前已經有……"],["高委員嘉瑜：這部分可以保證明年會有純網保嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個是讓現有的業者能夠在網路上有更多商業的機會。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以明年會有嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：純網保在明年1月底會跟各位報告我們評估的結果。"],["高委員嘉瑜：好。","最後，因為我上次沒有問到的，就是IFRS 17的問題，我們認為金管會對壽險業是一再的通融，IFRS 17不斷的拖延，2019年的時候告訴我們，考量國情2025年上路；到了2022年，又說考量國情，2026年上路；到10月的時候，史無前例的容許壽險業來做資產重分類、美化帳目；到了2023年，最近、最新的11月報告則是告訴我們說，要有15年的過渡期，讓壽險業喘口氣，所以整個就是一拖再拖，臺灣接軌IFRS 17在國際上已經是後段班，讓這些壽險公司不斷地延長壽命，他們其實在延長壽命的過程中，卻在逃避他們該有的責任，包括現金增資，所以這樣比較下來，臺灣是全世界目前最晚接軌IFRS 17的，要到2041年，請問2041年主委你都幾歲了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是我的個資吧！"],["高委員嘉瑜：這不是個資啊！對不對？2041年接軌，距離現在也將近快要20年的時間，是非常晚的時間，那時候會發生什麼事情我們都不知道，但我們的IFRS 17竟然要到2041年才能完全接軌，你不覺得這20年真的太長了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，每個國家接軌都是有一些寬限期，像歐盟接軌那個清償能力II也是有16年。"],["高委員嘉瑜：可是人家很早就開始接軌了，臺灣是2026年才要開始接軌，還要再給他們15年的過渡期，連韓國都是從今年1月1號開始接軌，到現在10年過渡期，最晚也是2033年，我們還比人家再晚了8年。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實主要是因為我們民國90年代以前賣了很多6以上的高利率保單，都是長年期、終身的，其實我們這樣做也是保障我們保戶的權益。"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以你們是要等他們消化完畢，才要讓他們去面對現在現金增資的這個需求嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不完全是消化完畢，而是我們給配套措施、給寬限期，讓它逐年慢慢去調整。"],["高委員嘉瑜：好。最後，再兩個小問題，一個是星展併花旗的案件，消費糾紛不斷的頻傳，客戶投訴越來越多，但是我們沒有看到金管會有任何的作為，很多存戶的權益受到影響，還有卡戶的權益也是一樣。另外，街口投信的胡亦嘉自行宣布回任董事，完全是在挑戰我們的金管會，但是金管會對街口卻是一再的寬容，罰鍰都非常得低，街口投信違反期貨信託法，也只開罰120萬，現在還公然挑戰金管會，但金管會的作為在哪裡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：街口投信目前就我的瞭解，如果要申請回任，必須先向投信投顧公會去申請，目前……"],["高委員嘉瑜：他可以自行宣布嗎？自行宣布回任董事是什麼意思？金管會沒有同意之前自行宣布，這是什麼意思？"],["黃主任委員天牧：他要怎麼表達，我想……"],["高委員嘉瑜：金管會到底在怕街口什麼啊？金管會你現在沒有任何一個罰鍰或是讓他這樣混淆視聽，他現在是不是街口董事？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前不是金管會……"],["高委員嘉瑜：金管會也沒有同意，在金管會沒有同意之前，他就不能擔任街口投信的董事，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的。"],["高委員嘉瑜：對啊！那他為什麼可以自行宣布回任呢？那這樣是不是在混淆視聽，影響市場的信心，讓大家認為說他是街口投信的董事，他可以這樣子招搖撞騙嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在記者會也有說明，一切以金管會最後同意為主。"],["主席：高委員，是不是注意一下時間？"],["高委員嘉瑜：所以我們還是希望金管會能夠拿出相關的罰則，針對街口投信還有像星展銀行類似這樣子對於消費者、對於這些存戶、對於金融市場都會產生影響，如果金管會都不處理，會讓人家覺得像這些為所欲為的金融機構這樣子招搖撞騙，自己說自己是投信董事，都還可以逃過我們相關的制裁，我覺得這樣子可能就沒有辦法去取信於社會大眾，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝高委員。接下來我們請陳椒華陳委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202992d5ddf92ada601e92351fad24fff329c986728e607a032212eae036270d068b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"江啟臣","委員發言時間":"10:51:14 - 11:06:53","影片長度":"00:15:39","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":939,"end_time":"2023-12-11T11:06:53+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:51:14+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["江委員啟臣：（10時51分）謝謝，請主席邀請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：江委員好。"],["江委員啟臣：部長，今年臺灣代表字的票選，大家選出「缺」字，我看你對這個字有做出回應，你說國軍缺乏更好的場地、訓練、更好的裝備等等。我請教一下部長，缺場地的部分，你現在覺得最缺的是哪一部分？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員首先說明，我沒有講什麼缺場地，我講缺的是我們缺乏訓練，我擔憂我們訓練不足，我只怕這一個。"],["江委員啟臣：所以是缺乏訓練？"],["邱部長國正：對，因為那天有這個字出來，結果就問我，我講我沒有表達任何意見，委員不要誤會，我沒有講缺場地……"],["江委員啟臣：OK，我看到媒體寫到你說缺更好的場地訓練。"],["邱部長國正：對，我們期待訓練得更好，這是當然要的。"],["江委員啟臣：我想說奇怪，所有我們該蓋的場地等等，立法院幾乎全部都給你預算，但是的確有一些延宕，對不對？你們在發包的時候，或者在做一些工程施作的時候，我們每一年審查預算常常都會出現預算沒有執行或執行率不佳。第一個，場地的部分，我認為基本上國防部編列的預算立法院幾乎都審議通過、都是支持的，所以接下來是你們執行率的問題。至於你提到更好的訓練這一塊，我想這個也的確是一個大問題，但不管是場地、人或者是裝備，包括裝備的部分，其實大家也都很關心，之前大家認為一些軍購延宕，雖然後來你們也修改了發價書，變更了交貨的期程，不過這個變更是延後的，這也是一個事實。我現在要問的就是，不管是F-16V、反裝甲的飛彈或者是肩射的刺針防空飛彈、M1A2T的裝甲車，還有F-16上面所用到的我們所採購的相關裝備，更改後的日期會不會再變？"],["邱部長國正：不會再變，因為……"],["江委員啟臣：不會再變了？"],["邱部長國正：對，有一些因為比較……"],["江委員啟臣：因為這個已經更改過交貨的日期了。"],["邱部長國正：但基本上最終交貨時間不會變。"],["江委員啟臣：最終交貨時間不會變？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["江委員啟臣：所以我現在所看到的，不管是F-16V延到2025年第4季，反裝甲飛彈今年開始交運，肩射飛彈這部分延到2025年，甚至M1A2T也是明年才開始交貨，這些不會再變了吧？"],["邱部長國正：不會再變了。"],["江委員啟臣：不會了？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["江委員啟臣：這個我要確認，因為基本上這都是預算沒有問題，而是交貨被延宕的部分。再來，其實如果要講「缺」，我認為國防部要最擔心的是缺人，缺人才是一個大問題。"],["邱部長國正：但是我沒有講到缺人，因為我們持續招募一定要經常做，這沒有缺不缺的問題。"],["江委員啟臣：對，當然，我知道你們也認真在招募，招募也在持續，可是你現在最大的問題就是你的編制員額21.5萬，我講的是志願役的部分，義務役當然很多人關心，明年1月開始義務役恢復成1年役期的徵兵制，但志願役的部分恐怕是你們……我認為這一塊不該被忽略，甚至應該要好好地去檢視跟檢討，因為21.5萬的編制員額，但是現在只有15.5萬，這個幾乎已經逼近七成，就是編現比從過去的八成多，一路掉、掉、掉到現在七成二，這個是一個滿大的危機。就算我們把純軍職的拿出來看，純軍職19.4萬的編制，但現在的員額是15.5萬，也才七成九、79%，也不到八成。更令人擔憂的是，這也是立法院預算中心所提出來的，就是第一線的戰鬥部隊編現比不到八成的問題，第一線的戰鬥部隊大概很難期待用未來1年期的義務役去彌補吧？不太容易。如果原本蔡總統所講的，義務役1年的兵役是以守備部隊為主，並不是第一線的主力戰鬥部隊，你要去彌補現在這個缺額，這個恐怕沒辦法彌補。而且我們現在所採購的這些新式武器，大概也很難用一般的義務役來訓練跟操作，你可能連訓練的時間都不夠，所以我說缺人才是你要面對的問題，到底原因是什麼？為什麼編現比一直掉？然後編現比一直掉就算了，你們現在還調高編制員額，112年開始逐次調整到現在是21.8萬，所以已經不是21.5萬。如果我們用21.8萬來除的時候，你現在的編現比是更低的，明年搞不好不到七成，這是代表要放棄志願役、放棄募兵制嗎？部長，不會調整吧？"],["邱部長國正：不會放棄，不會，因為……"],["江委員啟臣：不會到後來反過來變成是以義務役為主，志願役為輔？"],["邱部長國正：不會，我花一點時間跟委員報告，剛剛講要守備部隊沒有錯，但是我們當初有規劃得很好，有一些服兵役的弟兄有意願到主戰部隊去，他的專長要符合，經過我們測考、評鑑他可以……"],["江委員啟臣：可是他就是1年啊！"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯，所以一到主戰部隊以後，他不見得就投入主戰兵力，因為主戰部隊裡面也有很多戰鬥支援、勤務支援單位，這都可以算在裡面作為主戰部隊。"],["江委員啟臣：對，可是部長你要想，你現在馬上的落差21.8跟15.5，你算一下差多少？差將近6萬。你如果期待明年開始的1年期義務役補到這個數字要補多久？因為明年了不起讓你有個八、九千個1年期義務役回來當兵就已經不錯了，你原本預期是9,700個，但你認為會有9,700個，如你所想嗎？不見得啊！很多因素有可能導致他緩徵，緩徵是有可能的……"],["邱部長國正：會有這種問題，但明年我們查過了……"],["江委員啟臣：對，所以你要馬上彌補，我一直講這個gap，21.8跟現在的15.5，然後你馬上要接裝這些新的武器，這些新的武器不是只有操作這些，還包括維護、維修、後勤各方面，這個是一個大問題，部長，你們想好了沒？"],["邱部長國正：是，我要跟委員報告，這15萬還沒有包含維持員額，加上去裡面大概有十九萬多，我請戰規司跟您說明。"],["李司長世強：您剛剛講的分母就是志願役的人力，您剛剛是用19萬4……"],["江委員啟臣：對啊！我現在講的就是志願役，19萬4。"],["李司長世強：我們現員是15萬5，沒有錯，這中間有個缺口。"],["江委員啟臣：所以中間差了4萬。"],["李司長世強：對，編現比現在大概79.8%。"],["江委員啟臣：所以它基本上還是沒有達到，以往我們都拿8成來看，其實8成也是不夠啦！我要提出來的是，第一個，你用什麼方式留住現在招募來的？第二個，要能夠招募到新的。其實去年你們宣布恢復1年期徵兵的時候，有包括提高義務役的待遇，但我一直認為你們志願役的待遇都沒有提高，也沒有調，當時我也質問過部長，你們說就照行政院的人事相關規定來辦理，但是你們國防部自己有沒有想法？其實你們薪資待遇的誘因不足也是一個大因素，這個比較之下其實是很現實的問題，甚至我們到第一線去，我記得我當召委的時候，排了好幾次的考察，有一個小兵私底下跑到我旁邊跟我講悄悄話，他不敢跟你們講，他說的第一個：委員，我們常常都要待命，都沒辦法放假，沒辦法回去陪小孩、陪家人，那就算了！但是連津貼都沒有增加，也就是說，如果我們用加班費來比較的話，連這個也沒有，不管任何部隊，尤其是在第一線的這種戰備部隊。前陣子，包括現在也一樣，兩岸關係好像也沒有比較緩和，也沒有啦！他們出勤的狀況增加了，但是他的待遇卻沒有提高，他的加給、補給統統沒有增加，這是這一些基層士官兵不敢跟你們講的，可是他們卻偷偷到我耳邊講，甚至有些還直接寫陳情給我。部長，所以薪資待遇是一個問題，當然還有其他相關的配套福利，我知道你們想要蓋好的房舍給他們住，我們都支持，興安專案你們去蓋，我們都支持，可是薪資結構這一部分，你們有要調整嗎？目前的規劃有嗎？"],["鄧司長克雄：跟委員報告，有關薪資待遇的部分，除了他的基本待遇是跟著軍公教衡平的原則，我們依行政院的政策指導，另外我們也……"],["江委員啟臣：行政院的政策指導有要調嗎？沒有嘛！"],["鄧司長克雄：我們明年是調4%。"],["江委員啟臣：那個就是跟著所有的軍公教一起嘛。"],["鄧司長克雄：另外，我們還要依據他部隊的特性跟任務的屬性。"],["江委員啟臣：我知道，這個是原本有戰鬥加給，或者外島加給、特勤加給，對不對？"],["鄧司長克雄：是，會調整各種勤務跟專業加給，我們這個有逐年做滾動式的檢討。"],["江委員啟臣：但是最近也沒有調，我的意思是明年義務役的待遇大幅地調了，但志願役都沒有調，你看到你們的編現比都不緊張嗎？你不緊張，我還真的替你們緊張，為什麼？因為這中間會產生很多的空窗期會銜接不上、會有大問題，所以即便我們的武器來了、新式裝備來了，但是你會發覺怎麼樣？你沒有人力可以去熟悉、去操作，這個是國防上很大的一個問題，因為國防最後還是回到人，我就舉例美國2024年的NDAA，你知道它裡面直接寫軍人加薪，增加安全，增加這個預算總額，NDAA要求為美國軍人加薪5.2%，沒有錯，你說美國是軍事大國，可是他們也是一樣，他到現在還在為職業軍人加薪，所以我今天在這邊特別提出來，之前我也提過了，但我看到你們的編現比之後，覺得令人更加地擔心。","因為主席站起來了，我最後提出一個問題，在美國剛出爐的國防授權法（NDAA）裡面，基本上參眾兩院都已經有基本的一些共識了，這當中也提到了很多關於對臺的部分，有關情報交換、軍事訓練合作等，特別是軍事訓練合作這一塊，他們特別、特別地強調，我想請教一下部長，目前我們主要都還是以陸軍為主，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：地面的。"],["江委員啟臣：以陸軍為主，規模稍微比較大一點的，海、空軍的部分未來有沒有打算？"],["邱部長國正：這是我們現在一直在做的工作。"],["李司長世強：陸海空軍都有。"],["江委員啟臣：陸海空軍都有？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["江委員啟臣：這部分的規模應該會持續加大吧？"],["李司長世強：報告，會持續地把它鞏固下去。"],["江委員啟臣：好，那在NDAA這一次的條文裡面，你們注意看，它特別提到一個部分，我認為是值得注意的，它特別提到要求美國的國防部長，還有他們參謀聯席會議的主席，甚至是情報單位，要deliver一個完整的報告，這個報告是關於什麼？任何可能被共軍怎麼樣？封鎖的可能跟方式，然後因應的這些方案等等，這部分我們自己有沒有做相關的研析跟推演？"],["邱部長國正：有，這就是為什麼我們每一年都有這個備戰計畫，將各種可能的行動全部放在裡面，這也是我們平常部隊演訓的一個依據，一定要放上去的。"],["江委員啟臣：因為這裡面特別提到，identification of warning signs of a potential blockade，就是說對於一個有潛在的封鎖、可能的徵兆，要有辦法identify，我們有辦法嗎？比如我們現在能不能告訴大家，在什麼狀況底下，我們看得出來這可能要對臺灣進行封鎖？"],["邱部長國正：這個就是我們平常在研判的，看到徵候……"],["江委員啟臣：我們自己有沒有這個identification的list？"],["邱部長國正：我們當然有各種備案，但我們……"],["江委員啟臣：當然，有一些不能在這裡講。"],["主席（廖委員婉汝）：對。"],["江委員啟臣：但我要確認你們到底有沒有？"],["主席：有啦！"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，國軍建軍備戰這麼多年……"],["主席：詳細的跟江委員報告一下。"],["邱部長國正：假如沒有的話，那真的是笑話一則啦！"],["江委員啟臣：好，這個問題在於你要如何預防，沒有錯，這是一些警示，可是面對這些警示，你要如何破解、如何預防，讓它不要發生？這部分有沒有相關的準備？"],["邱部長國正：我們每一年……"],["主席：應該也有吧？沙盤推演都有在做。"],["邱部長國正：我們派人私下跟委員報告，好不好？"],["主席：之前考察都有去看，任何警訊都有。"],["江委員啟臣：好，因為這個NDAA裡面特別提出來，所以我在這邊要講的是，當它特別提出來的時候就代表這個恐怕也是未來我們要面對的一個重點，請國防部好好準備，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝江委員。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們幾次的考察都瞭解，不敢說國防部其實情資掌控得非常好，但是應該都有在掌控，可是這個自願役的加給一定要提高，不提高，退伍潮會很多，謝謝。","現在我們處理臨時提案，有2個案子，請議事人員宣讀第1案。","一、","鑒於共軍無人機對我外島防務威脅日深，國軍急需無人機反制系統應對威脅，惟今年由經濟部委民間研製之無人機反制系統原型系統，因系統整合失敗，陸軍司令部已予解約。據國防部向立法院送交之報告指出，未來將由工程會、經濟部及國防部等跨部會另成立無人機反制系統專案小組，研議系統規格及採購作法。","中科院本具備研製無人機反制或防禦系統之能力，惟為因應經濟部無人機國家隊之發展，扶植國內無人機反制系統產業，國防部考量外島需求，及國內國防產業技術整合能力，以委託研究方式，檢視國內廠商全系統研製能量，以做為未來建置籌獲參考。","未免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意，爰要求國防部未來不得以代理商取代研製之方式，招標無人機反制系統。","提案人：廖婉汝　　陳以信　　吳斯懷　　李德維"],["主席：請問國防部對提案內容有沒有意見？"],["李司長世強：委員，這邊補充說明一下，剛剛還來不及跟委員報告，如果按照委員這樣的臨時動議，就等於完全限制在我國內廠商，這一次的委製案為什麼後來會不成功？就是國內廠商自己沒有辦法整合，每一家又各自堅持自己的部分，它沒有辦法去變成一個team把它整合起來，所以這次的委製案才會失敗，但是我們現在開的限制性招標，是希望它在國內自製的比率越高，我給它的評分、加權就相對越高，用這樣子的方式來扶植我國內的產業，但是又不會去妨礙國外更先進的技術引進我國內。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["李司長世強：所以我們建議修成由經濟部來協助國內產業發展無人機反制系統。"],["主席：我這邊的修正，我原來要改了，「或經濟部」或什麼，沒有關係啦！那個就是照原來的文字，然後「或代理商應與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及項目投資，並落實技術轉移」可以嗎？"],["李司長世強：報告，可以。"],["主席：可以吧？"],["李司長世強：只要我們不要百分之百排除代理商的技術引進，這樣就可以。"],["主席：當然你們絕對沒有辦法，目前來講一定是代理商，我們要求代理商剛剛我講的就是國內設廠，不然就是你要跟我們的國內廠商做產業合作跟技術移轉，經濟部能不能同意？"],["連署長錦漳：遵照辦理。"],["李司長世強：那我們來修。"],["主席：好，你參考……"],["林委員靜儀：等一下，經濟部你們確定我們今天要委託的任何一間廠商要跟你們處理的時候，別人都願意把這個東西技轉給我們？你要確定喔！"],["主席：無人機應該OK啦！軍購的話就很難啦！"],["林委員靜儀：你不要到時候說人家不要技轉，我們就沒有辦法用到這種先進技程喔！"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，這有兩個路徑，一個就是國內的廠商自行開發，另外一條路徑就是主席講的可以跟代理商合作，這兩個路徑一定要同時進行。"],["主席：到最後一定是合作，只是不能完全買來交給我們就好了。"],["林委員靜儀：剛剛主席講的代理商合作，他還要求說你要有技轉，或者是一定要有相關的代理商要跟我們有怎麼樣的作法，你要不要把文字先聽清楚，確定是怎麼樣的文字。"],["主席：那個文字思考一下，來。"],["連署長錦漳：有……"],["主席：因為我知道完全否決代理商，你們絕對會反對，我也有腹案，參考一下文字修正，就是加註後面那些……"],["連署長錦漳：我建議可以加「爰要求國防部未來除尋求國內製造之外，可請求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資並落實技術移轉……」"],["主席：前面國防部那一塊加起來。"],["連署長錦漳：把國產的那一塊加在最前面。"],["主席：可以，前面國防部那一段沒有的，你加。"],["連署長錦漳：就是把國產製的那一塊加進去。"],["何委員志偉：我們可不可以先看一下最新版的更新文字，好不好？這樣我覺得比較妥善。"],["主席：對，那你們修正一下，我們進行第2案，好不好？把握時間。","第2案請議事人員宣讀。","二、","臨時提案","國防部為突破募兵之困境及建立培育文武兼備人才之教育模式，清華大學與國防部多次協調終獲同意成立「國防學士班」計畫，二○一九年招收優秀高中畢業生從軍報國。二○二○年成功大學等頂尖大學也陸續加入，開啟了我國大學募兵新頁。","惟因招生人數不如計畫預期，國防部已發函各大學，審視國防學士班招生狀況，並有學校已規劃明年度停止辦理國防學士班招生。目前正在辦理「國防學士班」的清華、成大、中興三校，均向國防部表達了續辦意願、極力争取。雖國防部今年九月獲同意續辦，卻於十一月又來函勒令停招。","教育部已核定招生、學校亦已宣傳招生，為避免侵害信賴保護原則、培育文武兼備人才及多元募兵之意旨，爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，應繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。","提案人：廖婉汝　　陳以信　　楊瓊瓔　　吳斯懷　　李德維"],["主席：國防部有沒有意見？"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員報告，它這裡有提到9月同意續辦這個部分，其實我們今年在6月7號的時候發函到各學校，有7所學校，其中4所學校表達他們不願意辦了，只剩下中興、成功跟清華他們願意試辦，後來我們整個做完……"],["主席：怎麼跟你報告相反啊？清華、中興跟成功是不要……"],["劉次長沛智：沒有，中興、成功跟清華這3所是要續辦的，後來我們整個檢討之後成效不佳，而且它跟ROTC的重複性很高，它完全可以用ROTC的模式來進入軍中，所以我們有發函給這3所大學，希望能夠去跟他們做一個說明，那中興大學後來也願意配合國防部的政策停止招辦，不辦理了；清華跟成大他們在報紙所刊的那些並不是事實。"],["主席：那副校長講的是假話？"],["劉次長沛智：不是，我在這邊非常負責任跟委員報告，我們所有的紀錄都有非常清楚的紀錄，他們一延再延，就是一直再延到12月底，所有的招生簡章是在12月初到1月才會出來，所以現在根本都還沒有開始招生，它必須要在招生簡章出來，在明年1月20號學測之後才會開始招生，也就是說113年所有的學生並沒有開始招生。我們檢討了這些所有的經過之後，決定113年停招，後續如果還有意願想從軍的都可以循ROTC的模式進入軍中。"],["主席：好，瞭解，那這個提案呢？我如果改成「建議」就好了？"],["劉委員世芳：主席，我可以發言嗎？"],["主席：可以。"],["劉委員世芳：我覺得主席跟一些提案委員的提案其實是相當的積極跟正面，大家都知道開這個國防學士班跟所謂的 ROTC最重要是裡面的教學內容，並不是表示這些所謂的文人大學，就是不是軍事院校的這些文人大學的學校沒有這個意願，更何況我們現在國防部不是只有針對職業軍人或是志願役，未來有很多包括可以到中科院或是可以到理工科系為主的，包括什麼無人機也好或是飛彈等等這些，如果可以從這3、4所學校裡面得到更先進的一些計畫或者是教學方向的話，其實都可行。我們只要在限制招生的條件上面，不要說你要去參加以後一定要當志願役，所以我覺得主席你的提案可不可以只有在最後「應繼續積極溝通辦理國防學士班計畫」，因為我不認為有一些大學副校長講的話是偏頗的，可能在溝通上面出現一些狀況……"],["主席：是。"],["劉委員世芳：主席也非常瞭解這中間的差距，所以我認為第一個，當時包括我們立法院外交及國防委員會都希望國防部可以跟這些所謂的頂尖大學一起來合作，但是合作開辦的科目或是教學的對象其實是可以再多做溝通的，所以不要當成說我們就不辦就好了，我想這樣反而不好，會斷掉我們原來文人，尤其是有基本頂尖科研學校的合作機會。以上。"],["主席：好，我同意劉委員的修正方式，你針對內容修正……"],["羅委員致政：主席……"],["主席：請說。"],["羅委員致政：可以建議啦！就是也結合剛才劉世芳委員的建議，我是建議就改一個字就好了，最後兩句就是「爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫。」這樣就好了吧？"],["主席：沒錯，我也只改兩個字啦！比較快，因為其實我覺得這是一種管道，ROTC試辦失敗也再辦過，我覺得不要把這個管道封鎖了。"],["劉委員世芳：對、對、對。"],["主席：好不好？研議可以，「要求」改「研議」，可以嗎？國防部。"],["劉次長沛智：跟委員說明，我們正期班的招募成效103%、ROTC 135%、專業軍官班109%，但是整個國防學士班招募的狀況只有33%，扣掉21個退學之後，只剩下22%，整個成本效益跟招募的效果真的是……"],["主席：對不起啦！我是提案，我是留一條路你們未來可以走……"],["劉次長沛智：繼續研議。"],["主席：我沒有要求你們，你們跟它說停辦了，現在沒有要求你明年113年一定要招嘛！但是我是覺得研議，對不對？留一個未來國防學士班的話或許可行嘛！"],["羅委員致政：可以啦！可以啦！"],["主席：我說你們誘因不足嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是，瞭解。"],["主席：而且那個設計的方式不對啊！國防學士班如果他不想念的時候，連學籍都沒有，他當然不敢報名了啊！因為你們很多人都不適應退伍了，他們怎麼知道我念的國防學士班能不能念得完，對不對？所以我是覺得主要是設計上也有一點機制上的問題，不然的話，教學合作班為什麼理工學院都非常踴躍？雙學位，他們多踴躍啊！對不對？好不好？我是覺得改「研議」，可以嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：報告委員，我們最後提個意見，倒數第二行「爰要求」改成「爰建議」國防部，後面就是……"],["主席：建議、研議都可以啦！"],["劉次長沛智：「應繼續」就是委員所剛剛說的……"],["主席：我也是改這兩個字而已。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["主席：你們要研議還是建議？研議比較好啦！「應研議繼續」好，OK。"],["羅委員致政：好啦！可以啦！就把「應」改成「研議」兩個字就好了。"],["主席：「應」改成「研議」好了，可以嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：各位委員沒有意見吧？好，那第1案呢？我們請議事人員宣讀嗎？"],["何委員志偉：可不可以也拜託讓議事人員把那個新的版本文字提供紙本給我們，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：第1案先唸。"],["何委員志偉：同步提供紙本，好嗎？謝謝！"],["主席：先印紙本，我們就第2案先唸好不好？第1案趕快先印紙本給大家參考。","好，宣讀第2案。","第2案協商結果：爰要求國防部針對同意續辦之學校，研議繼續辦理國防學士班計畫，其餘均照原提案通過。"],["主席：好，第2案各位委員沒有意見吧？國防部沒有意見吧？那我們修正通過，謝謝。","第1案趕快印，分送給大家。"],["何委員志偉：好，第2案沒意見，第1案？"],["主席：好，各位手上拿到第1案，我們請議事人員宣讀。","第1案修正之文字：未免失去扶植國內相關產業發展之本意，爰要求國防部除採購國內自製產品，若採購國外現貨應要求代理商與國內合格廠商進行產業合作及相互投資，並落實技術轉移。其他同原提案通過。另第1段第3行「陸軍司令部已予解約」改為「陸軍司令部已予終止合約」，其他照原提案通過。"],["主席：好，各位委員有沒有意見？"],["連署長錦漳：剛剛無人機反制那個，為了讓它能夠更確實落實，我們建議這樣修正：「爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。」"],["主席：除國防部採購國內自製產品，要加「國防部」就是了？"],["連署長錦漳：對，因為採購是國防部……"],["林委員靜儀：你前面就有「爰要求國防部」了啊！"],["連署長錦漳：那個本來就國防部的。"],["主席：所以你對哪一個有意見？"],["連署長錦漳：我重新唸一次？「爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。」"],["林委員靜儀：我覺得這樣比較順，所以文字跟我們現在手上的紙本又不一樣囉？"],["主席：國內「自製」改「產製」對不對？國內產製產品若……"],["林委員靜儀：加一個「外，」。"],["主席：好，再重新唸一次吧？"],["林委員靜儀：你文字有給國防部了嘛！對不對？"],["劉委員世芳：我們這邊文字不是新的喔！我們這邊的文字不是新的。"],["主席：還要再印嗎？"],["羅委員致政：不用了啦，唸一次就夠了。"],["主席：唸一次，大家注意一下！"],["林委員靜儀：署長，你文字有給召委了嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：我剛剛給……"],["主席：給了。來，請議事人員從「爰要求國防部」那裡開始再唸一次。","第1案修正文字：爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"],["主席：後面「及相互投資，並落實技術轉移」沒有嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：對啊！就是要落實，跟國內廠商合作有不同方式啊！那個方式，我們不要把它限制住。","跟主席報告一下，因為有一些技術，我們國內如果已經達到一定……如果所採購的是比較先進的，他要向國外採購的話，我們不要給他限制一定的模式，譬如說，他如果可以共同投資，或是技術授權或種種方式，我們把它涵蓋為叫做「與國內廠商合作」。"],["羅委員致政：主席，我覺得經濟部這樣的建議是有必要，因為相互有時候是我們技術比較尖端，你要強迫我們一定要技轉給他，或者反過來講，他要投資我們，因為被他買掉也有可能啊！所以保留一定的彈性，這樣可能會比較好，用一般性的相互合作，這樣就好。"],["劉委員世芳：主席，我來講一下，在臨時提案裡面有寫到工程會，其實工程會它是處理有關政府採購法的部分，所以它是不是會納入所謂的無人機反制系統專案小組，因為它不可能球員兼裁判，所以其實這個工程會放進去是比較奇怪。","第二個是國科會上個禮拜也公布我們臺灣的關鍵基礎設施或是關鍵基礎的部分是要受限的，所以能不能跟國外廠商合作，其實這些有關的限制條件都要放進去，因為我們這邊講的無人機，應該不是指一般的商用，或者是遊戲用的無人機，應該是軍用商規，或是軍用軍規，所以應該有更嚴格的限制，不能就是這樣說，我們可以這樣做那樣做，我是覺得一定要符合臺灣國內的法制基礎，還有符合對國家安全的需求才可以，我認為要加上這樣的限制條件比較合範。"],["主席：所以按照經濟部提的內容嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：那如果說像剛才委員提的話，我們後面就說「要與國內廠商合作，並遵守相關法令規定。」"],["主席：原來你們的那個產業發展條例裡面，就有相關法律規定，我們要求的是要落實。"],["連署長錦漳：剛剛劉委員講的是那個關鍵技術，現在最近……"],["主席：我跟你講，關鍵技術就是那個……我們今天主要要審的國防產業發展條例，你們根本不敢動嘛！因為技轉完全是零啦，很難啦，尤其是軍購的東西，我是覺得經濟部如果這樣寫我們是能接受啦，一定要跟國內廠商合作嘛！不管是我們學他，他學我們都一樣，在地組裝也可以啦！"],["劉委員世芳：把代理商刪掉啦，因為代理商看起來不太像是一個產製的廠商，因為第一段有代理商。"],["連署長錦漳：我是寫採購國外貨品啦！"],["主席：來，請議事人員再唸一次。"],["連署長錦漳：後來改的那一版沒有代理商。"],["主席：經濟部改的這一塊啦。代理商是非常敏感的字眼啦，沒有關係啦，你們要改可以啦，先宣讀一次。","第1案修正文字：爰要求國防部除採購國內產製產品外，如係採購國外貨品，應要求落實在地化組裝或與國內廠商合作。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["劉委員世芳：「要符合法律的規定」寫在哪裡？"],["主席：我覺得「法律規定」，那個原來就有法律規定了，我們在提案當中也不用寫到什麼法律規定。"],["何委員志偉：主席，我們是不是最後一段乾脆就把它刪掉好不好？"],["主席：哪一段？"],["何委員志偉：就是「未免失去扶植國內產業發展本意……」我覺得整段就不用了嘛！就留第一段跟第二段，我覺得這樣是否……因為裡面還討論到，這一次我們外島無人機的問題，其實不是國防部，也不是中科院，問題出在經濟部啊！你們現在搞這麼久，拖這麼久，那我們當時規格也好，其實技術、技術、技術，其實技術全部都有，那是廠商跟廠商之間不整合，就我們之前開出來的規格不整合，所以也不需要去提到任何國外的技術了，國內就有了，而且國內的技術，也有外銷到國外去，那是因為這一次整合起來，就簡單一點，就廠商跟廠商之間彼此之間的分配上面有問題嘛！所以我這邊建議是否留第一段、留第二段，第三段這邊，我們也不用去討論到國外了，因為這國內技術都夠，問題出在我們的整合啊，經濟部在這件事情上面，其實你的責任是最大的，你自己也清楚。"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告……"],["何委員志偉：你知道整個會期中科院跟國防部都被白罵了，你知道嗎？他們被罵了一整個會期。"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，我們是推薦4家有能力的廠商到國防部，至於國防部後面怎麼進行採購，那是國防部在主責。"],["主席：那你為什麼現在招標是公開呢？除了那4家之外，其他沒有經過你們推薦也可以來參加招標！"],["何委員志偉：你如果當時候願意推薦他，他就願意可以整合啊！這些東西當時就整合不出來嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：報告委員，有關整合一事，我們本來是推薦四家，並仿照前面無人機，建議個別分開招標……"],["何委員志偉：我必須講我知道大家都很努力，也是為了這個國家好。但這件事情搞太久了，好不好？沒關係，對於臨時提案的文字我請教一下召委，我們是否就留第一段與第二段？第三段感覺好像又開了一個空間出來，因為國內就可以處理了。"],["主席：國內如果可以處理，原型機早就已經造出來了！不然誰能講國內可以做？中科院院長？"],["蔡委員適應：主席，不好意思，我再問一下次長。剛才聽經濟部的說法，原來經濟部推薦給國防部四家，是認為這四家都有能力來完成這樣的要求，是國防部自己要求這四家整合成二個團隊？沒錯？所以國防部沒事為什麼要幹這種事？弄完之後最後弄不出來？原來經濟部的意思是認為這四家都能夠個別做出無人機反制防禦系統，最後由國防部個別評審，你的建議原來是這樣子嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：報告委員，國防部有開規格給我們，由經濟部、國防部、國科會與工程會組成專案小組審查，審查後推薦這四家……"],["蔡委員適應：所以這四家的每一家都是個別廠商都能夠做，而不是這四家一定要整合成一家或兩家，沒有這樣要求吧？"],["連署長錦漳：當時給的建議並沒有要整合。"],["蔡委員適應：那就是國防部的問題了！"],["主席：來，國防部誰要說明？反正兩兩整合就是失敗，現在就是要公開招標！"],["蔡委員適應：主席，剛才經濟部講得很清楚，那四家自己做都可以成功，意思就是這樣，所以不要整合就沒事了！"],["林委員靜儀：什麼原因要求整合？可以說一下嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：因為經濟部的評估，原本這四家廠商沒有一家有完全能力的，所以必須自由組合，而陸軍並沒有要求說要怎麼組合，不論三加一、二加二或一家去整合三家都沒有問題。後來由他們四家自己去配對，也就是兩兩；兩兩裡面誰比較好？就用評選的機制選出來，也就是創未來和創思達這兩家公司為一個單位來承接這個委製案。承接委製案的結果是：他們做不出來！而做不出來是因為甲、乙這兩家廠商……創思達不跟創未來整合，因為他的能力，如雷達方面不願意跟他合作，以致他們兩個合作破局，這段是他們廠商之間的問題，我們希望……"],["蔡委員適應：上次審預算的時候，我們其實有問過這個案子，當時我們有做過一個決議，我記得王定宇委員也在。當時有說你再問一下另外一家有沒有意願要做？部長現場說沒問題，會再問另外一家有沒有意願，後來有沒有問？因為你們現在解約了？"],["趙主任亞平：對。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有沒有問另外一組？你們有沒有去問另外那兩家有沒有意願做？這原來是科研案，對不對？"],["趙主任亞平：是一個委託研究案。"],["蔡委員適應：你們有沒有去問？因為部長現場答應我們，也說不然也鼓勵另外兩家參與，這是部長現場說的，可是一個禮拜後你們就公告案子解約，我也不曉得為什麼？"],["主席：我們就是搞不清楚為什麼？而且現在變成公開招標？其實公開招標可以獲得的話都可以，但這些技術，如果每一家廠商標到的有一些技術 knowhow需要合作，因為兩兩合作都弄不出來的話，我相信當中一定有一些關鍵技術，而且一定要在地組裝！經濟部說要在地組裝或與國內廠商合作，這些我們都沒有意見，至少相輔相成。再說，我們有一些技術移轉內容，不管是兩兩或經濟部推薦的那四家，按照國防部要求的資格是OK的，但是你要叫他們合作生產就是有問題啊，所以才會解約嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，後續的量產案……"],["主席：就停擺啦！延宕啦！"],["趙主任亞平：我們就沒有綁住要兩兩或是要哪幾家廠商相互合作，也就是開放式的……"],["主席：簡單講，他們就是不合作……"],["趙主任亞平：沒有，但是量產案的話所有廠商都可以來參加……"],["主席：他們不合作也就沒有原型機出來，也沒有辦法量產！"],["趙主任亞平：原本就是選了那四家……"],["主席：對，但是那四家不合作，所以你們現在就開放，已經不是經濟部評審的那四家，全部都可以來……"],["趙主任亞平：對、對。"],["主席：但你覺得優的這四家都做不出來了，還要公開？其實我覺得都沒問題，所以我要拜託各位委員，我提案目的只是希望能採購到，不管用什麼方式，如果覺得代理商這名字不好聽，要取消掉，那沒有關係，但我希望國內廠商引進的國外技術能技轉、能合作、能在地生產就好了，好不好？可不可以這樣子？"],["何委員志偉：主席，我就教一下，第三段要留嗎？還是……"],["主席：都要留！"],["何委員志偉：我的認知是最後真正應該要求的是時間，是時間啦！"],["主席：他們有預算壓力，你說「未免失去扶植國內……」這個要拿掉嗎？"],["何委員志偉：不然就按照大家的共識……"],["主席：對，按照經濟部這個可以吧？"],["羅委員致政：對。主席，我建議，坦白講，我們也沒那麼偉大，通過決議後你們馬上就生得出來！事實上這只是我們立場的表態，要求你們落實相關的……因為顯然國內這條路走不出去了，走不出一條路來，如果用代理商或進口方式也許能夠儘量……並因此協助國內廠商的研發能力。我覺得修改後的文字是主席的核心，應該是可以接受的，不要再刪了。"],["主席：其他委員呢？國防部？"],["何委員志偉：不然就按照原文字，好不好？"],["主席：不是原文字，按照修正過的經濟部文字。國防部？"],["趙主任亞平：沒意見。"],["何委員志偉：國防部不能再拖了！"],["主席：修正通過。休息10分鐘。","休息（11時36分）","繼續開會（11時46分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接下來請蔡適應委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029705b4570c9deca22bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a03228773759d3bad123a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:41:57 - 10:54:32","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":755,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:54:32+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:41:57+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時41分）謝謝召委。主席、在場委員先進、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委早。剛剛有委員問到詐騙的問題，我先問幾個問題，治安有沒有改善要看哪三個方面？第一個是犯罪率，第二個是報案率，第三個是破案率，你覺得治安有沒有改善要先看哪一個比率？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不是犯罪專家，我不太……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是常識嘛，民眾覺得治安有沒有改善，我們要看哪些數字？犯罪率有沒有上升對不對？可是犯罪率是來自什麼？就是民眾有報案，所以警方就有報案率嘛，但是有沒有破案？如果有破案了，那麼歹徒就不敢妄為，所以犯罪率就會下降，是不是這樣子？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有人說過一個笑話，說有人是在解決問題，有人則是在解決提出問題的人。過去我曾經在地方擔任副首長，每個月都要主持治安會報，我都會要求不能只看報案率，因為如果只看報案率，他們解決的是報案的人，就是吃案嘛，對不對？破案率如果沒有提高，民眾還是會覺得治安不好，是不是這樣子？所以我們要改善治安，不只要看報案率，報案率提高不見得是壞事，另外還要看破案率有沒有提高，如果我們一味的要求犯罪率要下降，可能你得到的只是報案率下降而已，主委同不同意？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是有這種可能啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下銀行臨櫃有效阻詐，而且件數成長非常多，這是代表詐騙猖獗還是代表我們防堵有效？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的觀點覺得我們的銀行防堵上有發揮效益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但民眾還是感覺到詐騙好像很多。我們來看一下，金融詐騙的境內犯罪率，我們積極破案，就是臨櫃防堵嘛，但是境外有沒有辦法防堵？目前境內犯罪大概都是透過臨櫃就攔下來了，對不對？所以目前的詐騙是不是大部分都境外犯罪？是不是這樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的瞭解是境外來源比較多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前我們只在國內的臨櫃阻詐是有幫助，但是我們還要加強對於境外犯罪的防堵，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。那我們來看一下詐騙的問題，上週我問過上海銀行，一萬四千個客戶個資外洩，有查出來是誰做的嗎？路徑找出來了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我請局長說明一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，其實他們內部做了很詳盡的查核，目前他們還透過第三方，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：透過第三方，好，key word找到了。","主委，我上週才對公股行庫要求要去加強做這些資安敏感職務人員的訓練和考核，根據金融控股公司及銀行業內部控制及稽核制度實施辦法第三十八條之一，有沒有？有！只要是銀行業，不管你是不是公股行庫，你都要設置專責人員，而且要受訓，有沒有？有嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我請你比照我對財政部要求公股行庫的作法，你可不可以要求本國銀行統整出哪些是資安敏感的職務，而且要加強對他們的資安審查跟教育，可不可以？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們可以朝這個方向去努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你承諾要做這個事情，因為公股行庫已經答應了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是敏感職位可能依不同銀行而有差別。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你們要去統整啊！要提報來審查，好不好？可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不太方便，是他們會提出來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們提報，你們要求他要做這個事情。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，但是審查我們不太容易從……我們不是經營銀行的人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至少你可以要求他要落實。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們可以做這件事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們可以做這件事情，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要落實對於敏感職務的盤點跟人員的審查和訓練、講習，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，另外我們來看一下，醫指付 app 盜刷，誰該負責？是金管會還是衛福部？還是我們的數發部？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個我後來瞭解，個資部分應該屬於衛福部這邊處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會有沒有責任？有沒有採取行動？"],["黃主任委員天牧：財金公司有要求大洸公司去確認當初是因為委外的關係而產生個資的外洩。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要聯合各部會，不是推給別人，你可以做的就做，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，我們都同時在做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：醫指付有沒有釐清個資外洩來源跟途徑呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有喔？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有在查。對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：待查啦！我跟你講，幾個參考，請往下看，其實在我們國家對於關鍵基礎設施的保護，從設施部分有這些法律，如果設施要保護，包括什麼？資通系統，對不對？用這個案子來往下看，其實行政院除了對於硬體之外，對於人員的審查也很重要，行政院有規定要求所有政府採購，對於大陸廠牌的資通安全系統之外，機關還要去要求執行團隊不可以有中國籍的人士，是不是這樣？有沒有看到行政院這個函？這是要求公務採購、政府採購的部分。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有看到大陸廠牌資訊的一些規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可不可以要求本國銀行也比照辦理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個如果是公股比較可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：公股的話，因為是財政部的，財政部沒問題。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其他銀行部分，我們要瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本國銀行，你們要要求，好不好？不是只有所謂的政府採購，本國銀行的資安是連通的，不會分你是公股行庫或不是公股行庫，他只要一個地方攻破，通通都進來了。主委可不可以要求考慮？"],["黃主任委員天牧：局長有沒有什麼想法？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，公銀的部分確實是比照辦理，至於其他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本國銀行的部分。"],["莊局長琇媛：本國銀行的部分的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：金融網是連通的。"],["莊局長琇媛：對，我們會再研議，因為之前是要將……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要往這個方向去要求，可以嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：好，是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委承諾？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們先瞭解一下其他非公股銀行使用大陸廠牌資訊產品的情況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這是一個起點，請要求它、瞭解它用了多少。"],["黃主任委員天牧：然後再瞭解它怎麼去管控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，先瞭解它用了哪些、怎麼管控。","再來，有關開放銀行第三階段有這些服務，TSP業者找人開發 app，然後有這麼多的服務，現在的第三方服務要提供損害賠償責任，根據銀行公會會員銀行與第三方服務提供者合作之自律規範第六條第九項規定，第三方應負責損害賠償，對不對？是不是這樣？同不同意？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，依照這個規範是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以第三方也跟銀行一樣，中國的軟硬體在韓國造成了這些敏感個資外洩，華為也在臺灣有類似的情況，所以希望未來對這些 TSP業者也比照我們的政府採購一樣，不只是政府要落實，也請TSP業者參考我們工程會第八條第二十四款，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個就是我剛剛跟您報告的，比方說非公股，我們先盤點這些TSP業者有沒有使用大陸的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，也一樣，第一步先跨出去，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外我們來關心綠色行動3.0，這個3.0的報告當中，你們的核心策略是要揭露碳排資訊，從投融資推動整體產業減碳，是不是這樣子？金管會有在這樣做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是其中之一啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，好，我們來看一下銀行在建商端的土建融及消費端購買綠建築的房屋貸款，都有給予比較優惠的條件，有沒有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個在銀行公會授信審查準則第二十條好像有類似對這種的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有嘛！實質抗衡的成效可不可以告訴我，本國銀行在民間綠建築融資的推廣成效如何？核定多少件？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，我們調查之後跟您報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。你們還沒有做調查，我告訴你，這是我從內政部得到的資料，在2022跟2023比較，我們所有的公建、商辦、住宅核發建照數量有這麼多，綠住宅有這些，大概民間的綠建築比例偏低，就是說我們國家在推，但是民間綠建築通過的有2%到3.2%。如果我們把公建跟商辦拿掉只看純住宅，純住宅稍微好一點，但是住宅的綠建築比例也是不高，所以我們來看一下，到底我們金管會提供的綠色行動有沒有幫助市場上的住宅消費者或建商願意來興辦綠建築？您覺得有沒有實際上推動的效果？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我認為是有，但是可能不如您的期待。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，還沒調查出來，有沒有符合我的期待還不知道，我們來看一下，其實我去調查的結果是非都更案通常不會選擇綠建築，為什麼？因為我們注意到在內政部公布的資料當中，如果你是都更案就有綠建築的容積率獎勵，因為容積率獎勵之後，它的利潤大於綠建築增加的成本，所以幾乎我們看到的營建案，內政部的資料通通集中在都更案，他們才會去做綠建築，但是如果是非都更案呢？沒有！所以我也注意到，你回去查一查本國銀行去推動的綠建築融資有沒有非都更案？回去查一查再跟我報告。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我認為，我查的是沒有啦！所以問題在哪裡？今天綠建築的推動屬於容積獎勵的有效，但是如果是屬於你們要提出融資優惠的，好像沒有讓建商改變它的想法。我們往下看，因為我們目前的都更案，大部分的建商是因為獎勵容積選擇綠建築，而不是融資優惠，因為我們目前提供的融資優惠小於綠建築增加的營建成本，建商沒有意願。所以我可以先做這樣的定論，目前的綠色建築行動方案的融資優惠其實吸引不了建商去做綠建築，你再回去看看有沒有什麼資料可以反證我的話。","接下來我的結論就出來了，根據銀級綠建築的案例，內政部建築研究所的評析，銀級綠建築大概每平方公尺增加600元至900元的成本，樓地板面積如果是以1萬3,000米來講，營建成本大概是780萬。我舉這個例子，事實上目前我們建融動撥的方式、土融放款金額要達到讓建商覺得它要來做綠建築，你的土建融要調降0.8%，反而非都更建案所減少的土建融利息支出才會小於它去做綠建築增加的成本。簡單講，結論來了，金管會可不可以擬具體方案來積極推廣綠建築？包含目前你們對投融資的獎勵，去調查一下，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，我們照這個方向去努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，其他三個我很快講一遍，請金管會統整出敏感職務加強資安審查及教育，OK？"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是我剛剛跟您報告的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，國銀及所屬合作券商和保險公司、其執行團隊成員只要是非本國籍或同時擁有其他國籍人士，以及資通訊產品皆應加強資安及背景審查，是不是往這方向去努力？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為有其他國籍，不要讓其他國籍……"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解，我沒有禁止，我要你們去加強進行瞭解跟審查。"],["黃主任委員天牧：就是不要歧視……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們沒有歧視，只要求你去掌握，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們就是用事實為基礎去瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，金管會要求開放銀行TSP業者之資通訊軟體、硬體或服務，也應該要求他的執行團隊不得為中國籍人士，而且不得使用來自中國的資通訊產品。"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟您報告，我們先瞭解它的產品跟人的背景……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在多久內提出來送到本委員會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這樣可能時間長一點，三個月，可以嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，同意，就請召委這邊來要求，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委、謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時54分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：我們要繼續開會了，現在請媒體跟與會成員，大家回座。","接下來，我們請高嘉瑜高委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202927afa82c1c90606f92351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322c5814b0a7dced5285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖婉汝","委員發言時間":"10:34:53 - 10:50:56","影片長度":"00:16:03","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":963,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:50:56+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:34:53+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["廖委員婉汝：（10時34分）謝謝主席，我請一下邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["廖委員婉汝：還有國防學士班跟ROTC這個單位。"],["邱部長國正：召委早，是。"],["廖委員婉汝：部長辛苦了！部長，我今天排這個議題真的是想瞭解一下，因為12月5號在聯合報有清華大學副校長的投書。我是覺得很奇怪，，當我們在審預算的時候，國防部跟我們講整個國防學士班招收不到學生，所以113年停辦；可是這個投書當中說，在整個國防學士班當中，學校裡面的學生其實是滿有意願的。當然你們的解釋是說，當初清華大學校長非常極力在招募、說服大家，讓學生能夠多參與，但是後來好像成效不彰。你們的統計數字我看一看，你們訂的標準都是10位、10位、10位等等，我覺得它的錄取率、達到的成效應該也是33%。但是依這位副校長的投書，他覺得還是有一些學校跟學生願意來參與國防學士班，要跟你們協調所以約了幾次，結果國防部的人都沒有答應，甚至於約好了也沒有同意跟他們說明，事後你們只發新聞說沒有獲得學校同意安排，到底誤差在哪裡我不曉得。我在等一下的提案當中有提到，如果今年9月已經承諾這個了，學校已經在招募了，而且有招到學生的時候，你們是不是要停辦？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，其實他們肯定有誤會，因為事實上我兩年多前到國防部以後，他有跟我提到班隊，我第一個問題是這個成效怎麼樣？他就列了表給我。到目前的整個數據，我跟委員報告，譬如我們期望獲得兩百多人，但後來招到的學生大概有67人，67人當中還有21個人不來參加了，所以這幾年真正累計出來以後，要兩百多人只有招到四十多人，而且最近這兩年幾乎很多學校都掛零，清華大學比較好一點，108年一開頭的時候，目標10位學生，它招了9位，這還不錯……"],["廖委員婉汝：我瞭解，在整個預算審查當中其實國防部都有說明，部長，我不是打斷你的意思。"],["邱部長國正：對，我們有說得很清楚。"],["廖委員婉汝：但是我現在想瞭解的是，國防學士班跟ROTC的話，請問一下，112年度ROTC招募的學生數是481位，那……"],["邱部長國正：這個我也要跟委員報告，它跟ROTC幾乎是概等的，服役的年限也一樣，給他的津貼也……"],["廖委員婉汝：對，所以我們那時候審查預算也希望如果不行，其實有意願的可以轉到ROTC。"],["邱部長國正：對，我們也希望這樣子。"],["廖委員婉汝：我想請教一下，資源司跟我回答，ROTC的學生來源大致都是哪些學校？因為國防學士班你定位的當然清華、成功、中興大學就不招了嘛！但是中央、中山、政治、臺灣跟臺北大學等等，這些學校為主是國防學士班，ROTC的學生到底來源是哪些學校？有沒有歸納過？有481位！"],["邱部長國正：ROTC是所有大學的學生都可以報名的。"],["廖委員婉汝：都可以？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["廖委員婉汝：教育部知不知道所有大學是哪些大學？"],["邱部長國正：我可以列舉出來的，不管是清華、政大、臺大、成功、中央、中興、中山都包含在裡面。"],["廖委員婉汝：國防學士班都有這些學校的學生？"],["邱部長國正：對……"],["廖委員婉汝：你把ROTC的學校數、學生數提供給本席參考。"],["邱部長國正：好，可以。ROTC的學校更廣。"],["廖委員婉汝：我不是說一定要綁國防學士班，因為ROTC曾經失敗過，重新再來，所以我希望國防部更專精。如果國防學士班是比較有研發程度的，國防部需要的人能不能這樣切割？我不瞭解。ROTC畢竟是軍事訓練而已，類似未來的軍官班，所以我覺得國防部應該還是要把它區隔。尤其未來的戰爭就是科技戰，在科技戰當中，不論發展無人機或 AI等等，有沒有需要在這些學校當中尋找國防人才？為什麼他們不要參加呢？不是只有學校校長推的動力而已，而是有沒有給他更好的誘因，對不對？因為實際上我看你們預期的補助或各方面都一樣，只是國防學士班的話……"],["邱部長國正：對，都一樣，都跟ROTC一樣。"],["廖委員婉汝：所有的預算、經費都一樣，若沒有繼續修習，可能學籍就沒有了，所以大家不敢去參加國防學士班，對不對？如果參加ROTC，退訓之後只是沒有當軍官的資格，但還是可以再繼續念書，所以可能有一些差別足以影響。我不是在為誰講話，而是覺得你們是不是該確定人力需求？或者在未來的需求人力當中，是不是有更優越的誘因讓他們留下來？如果國防學士班念了之後退訓，卻連學籍都沒有，當然他們就連報都不報了，所以我覺得這個要檢討一下。如果9月已經承諾人家要報，學生也說要報，現在又勸學生不要來報，這個對你們的立場來說好像也很奇怪。如果已經有學生要報，能不能繼續？"],["邱部長國正：不，他已經在那邊就讀，我們一樣，他這個後面……"],["廖委員婉汝：就讀的當然就讀。我是指113學年度……"],["邱部長國正：我們準備要停止了，因為要報的話，我們從這幾年的成績已經看到都掛零，要不就是來了幾個。我覺得這個投資，如果真要有意願，ROTC隨時歡迎他們，一樣的待遇、一樣的條件，服役的期限也一樣，一定要再搞一個學士班的話，我們要投注另外的人力跟財力。"],["廖委員婉汝：部長的意思是國防學士班其實沒有必要，試辦之後失敗？"],["邱部長國正：當初我們一直在評估是什麼原因，一開頭學校認為這樣對我們很有幫助，但是後來從這幾年的結果就可以看到……"],["廖委員婉汝：我覺得有時候內部在學術上還是要檢討一下，像你們跟國防大學理工學院及陽明交大的產學合作班就做得很好。當然就是像剛剛講的3+1，教育部會幫他開學分，但是以這個來講，就近可以合作。我們剛剛講的國防大學這幾個學校有時候因為距離的關係，學生要修習學分很難解決交通的問題，不過陽明交通大學跟國防大學因為可以得到雙學位，所以有加成的效果，因此有種種因素。我們需要什麼樣的國防人才，未來在產業發展當中，有必要的是不是也可以協助？如果可以保留，你們應該提供更好的誘因給他們，讓他們願意來參與，變成國軍重要的人力來源。這是我的想法。我覺得國防部還是仔細思考一下，雙學位他們都可以，但是為什麼其他大學會失敗？當然是修學分的關係，可能影響拿學位的關係，也有可能是如果能夠得到雙學位，例如清華大學願意提供雙學位或者是我們提供更好的職務給他，或許他也願意來參與，只是我覺得應該就幾個方向去檢討。我相信你們知道ROTC過去失敗的原因，而你們現在是有就好了嗎？因為過去也失敗過，所以停招，停招之後才恢復，現在人力缺乏，你就覺得還好，願意來ROTC就來？"],["邱部長國正：當初ROTC不是失敗，因為當初有很多班，還有預官，所以它的來源很充分，就停了……"],["廖委員婉汝：現在來源不充分，所以ROTC就可以了？"],["邱部長國正：後來也有很多提議，ROTC還是可以造就出一些專業人員，譬如部隊裡面有一些ROTC現在位階也不低，升到將軍也都有，所以代表它是可以發展的。"],["廖委員婉汝：國外也很多，希望我們國內也有成就ROTC的……"],["邱部長國正：剛剛委員講到有一點很重要，的確要有誘因，譬如理工學院為什麼跟一般大學可以合作？雙學位拿到了，讓很多人都有意願。"],["廖委員婉汝：沒錯。"],["邱部長國正：我們看了目前國防學士班的數據，我也請他們提供數據給委員看一看。這幾年來要的不多，只有十個，可是到的更少，有的一個，有的掛零。"],["廖委員婉汝：我說要檢討就是因為沒有誘因，尤其國防學士班，如果沒有參加，他就陷入沒有學籍、連學校都不能唸的情況，當然沒有誘因，所以我覺得要檢討。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["廖委員婉汝：因為我們需要這些學校科系的人力配合國防部發展國防產業，我覺得應該再修正一下，給他更好的誘因。就像我剛剛講的，有雙學位、交通方便，讓他能夠犧牲晚上的時間去上課，寧願拿到雙學位，對這些國防大學理工學院的學生就非常樂意，學校也願意來配合。","最後，我想請教一個問題，也是配合今天產業發展條例的修正案。那天我們在參訪當中，何召委有提到未來無人機的推動，經濟部今天也有來，我們的無人機推動有無人機國家隊。部長請回，休息一下，沒關係。為什麼經濟部會提出在無人機國家隊當中，由四家廠商兩兩來合作研發，結果測試不過之後，反制無人機的生產就停辦了？現在變成不管你有沒有參加無人機國家隊都可以來招標，沒有參加驗證的廠商也可以來招標。"],["連署長錦漳：這個可能要請國防部來回答，因為當時做的不是這樣。"],["廖委員婉汝：整個制度大亂了！"],["連署長錦漳：這個要請國防部來回答。"],["廖委員婉汝：我先問你為什麼找四家來合作？有好幾家，你們評審推薦四家嘛！"],["連署長錦漳：當時是推薦四家給國防部……"],["廖委員婉汝：兩家、兩家合作研發。"],["連署長錦漳：後來決定兩家合作是國防部來主導的。"],["廖委員婉汝：不是兩家，是四家裡面兩家、兩家各自。"],["連署長錦漳：對，有四家，最後由兩家來共同研發，這個是國防部後來決定的。請國防部來說明。"],["廖委員婉汝：後來研究為什麼失敗？你們為什麼要推這四家？這四家是不錯的廠商嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：那四家是對外公開徵選出來，有一定的程序。"],["廖委員婉汝：是你們徵選，還是國防部徵選？"],["連署長錦漳：由經濟部、國防部、國科會及工程會共同……"],["廖委員婉汝：四個單位。"],["連署長錦漳：組成一個審議委員會決定出來，然後推薦給國防部。"],["廖委員婉汝：請參謀長回答，兩家、兩家研發，結果研發失敗之後，現在為什麼沒有參加過驗證的廠商都可以來招標？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員指的是？"],["廖委員婉汝：兩家、兩家研發失敗之後沒有成效，現在變成沒有驗證過的廠商也可以，因為急迫需要這些反制無人機。我們現在是公開招標嘛？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員指的是明年、後年的26套？"],["廖委員婉汝：對。你們原型機不是兩……"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是國防採購室主任。因為之前無人機研發採用限制性招標，所以原則上就是經濟部評選出合格廠商，我們從合格廠商裡面遴選廠商來開發，但是量產案不符合政府採購法。"],["廖委員婉汝：它沒有經過測試通過嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：對，所以……"],["廖委員婉汝：為什麼沒有測試？這兩家、兩家當中怎麼會把它的knowhow跟你講呢？叫兩家合作，它們兩個還是……"],["趙主任亞平：後續的量產案跟原型機開發是獨立的兩回事，不能混為一談。"],["廖委員婉汝：所以那兩個是鬧著玩的就是了？測試沒過沒關係，現在是沒有驗證過的廠商都可以參與公開招標。"],["趙主任亞平：對，所有廠商……"],["廖委員婉汝：我們前面那兩段是要幹嘛？四家來幹嘛？"],["趙主任亞平：因為當時這個就是說……"],["廖委員婉汝：來玩一玩而已啊？不然呢？"],["趙主任亞平：不是！因為原型機的量產……"],["廖委員婉汝：經濟部評估四家就是希望得到他們的技術嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：對。"],["廖委員婉汝：然後合作，依國防部的需求來量產，讓原型機可以生產出來，未來量產。問題是這4家變成2家……"],["趙主任亞平：它做不出來，它沒辦法。"],["廖委員婉汝：兩兩相研究當中，沒有辦法測試完成，所以變成這個測試是失敗的、這個案子是失敗的。"],["趙主任亞平：對，因為它整合能力不夠，它做不出來。"],["廖委員婉汝：每一家公司會跟你整合嗎？你想想也是。我現在質疑的地方就是，當4家變2家，各研發測評沒有過、測試沒有過的情況之下，現在你們要怎麼完成未來的量產？"],["趙主任亞平：後來的量產，我們是用公開招標、最有利標的方式……"],["廖委員婉汝：所以沒有經過你們驗證過的……驗證過的是4家來研發嘛。"],["趙主任亞平：這跟之前那個原型機驗證是無關的。"],["廖委員婉汝：我瞭解，4家至少挑選過，現在你要招標測試，沒有經驗的統統過來參與招標嘛。"],["趙主任亞平：是，但是我們用選擇性招標，所以它還是有初步的選擇合作廠商。"],["廖委員婉汝：兩兩研究都研究不出原型機了，你現在開放的話，唯一的就是代理商進來嘛！代理商進來、你公開招標我都沒有意見，代理商進來，根據我們的產業發展條例，在國內設廠或者是技術移轉，可以嗎？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，我們樂觀其成，我們樂觀國內產業自主發展。"],["廖委員婉汝：不是樂觀，我就寫決議，謝謝。"],["趙主任亞平：但是要不要代理商的話，因為這是獲得……"],["廖委員婉汝：兩兩研究，原型機都研究不出來，你現在公開招標，哪一個做得出來？"],["趙主任亞平：我們也希望是國內自主。"],["廖委員婉汝：就是代理商進來買現成的給你嘛！我要求的是可以、有必要性，一個原則：在國內設廠，不然就是技術移轉，好不好？"],["趙主任亞平：是，我們樂觀其成。"],["廖委員婉汝：不要樂觀其成，一定要做到！不是樂觀其成。我決議做好的時候，就按照那個決議辦理。"],["趙主任亞平：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員。","接下來請江啟臣江委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029fc21f7df99e6ea6ebdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a0322bc8fad7574f95d0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"費鴻泰","委員發言時間":"10:29:36 - 10:41:43","影片長度":"00:12:07","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":727,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:41:43+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:29:36+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["費委員鴻泰：（10時29分）好，謝謝主席。各位女士、先生，大家早安。主席，幫我請一下黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。"],["費委員鴻泰：主委早。今天主席安排的這個題目，我想在這個會期快結束的時候來檢討一下是蠻好的，請問現在純網銀的這3家，目前都很認真、努力的要增資，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是、是。"],["費委員鴻泰：那我想請教一下，純網銀可以做的業務跟一般實體銀行可以做的業務，有什麼樣很明確的是純網銀可以做的，一般銀行不可以做？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大體來講，就是把實體銀行的業務儘量在網路上都能做，但是純網銀當初自稱他的利基是有一個生態系，可以做一些生態系的synergy發揮。"],["費委員鴻泰：換句話說，一般銀行如果要去做純網銀的業務也是可以的，是不是這個意思？"],["黃主任委員天牧：業務相同，只是一個虛擬，一個實體，當然實體銀行也有虛擬業務。"],["費委員鴻泰：實體銀行當然有虛擬業務，因為現在是網路的世界，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：純網保今年，至少今年好像沒有業者要申設的吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，因為去年我們說要再觀察，去年因為防疫險的關係，所以市場受到影響，我們準備明年1月底會跟大家報告。"],["費委員鴻泰：其實你們要推動純網銀、純網保，憑良心講，就是用虛擬的網路世界服務我們的客戶，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：這個想法基本上是對的，而且日後的發展傾向也都是如此，但是因為現在這3家純網銀或日後可能申請的純網保在推動上有一些困難，我們不能說它不好，因為這都需要時間，自古都說十年有成、二十年有成，所以我們不可能要求他短短二、三年就馬上很厲害，但是在這個過渡時期，我想請教主委，可不可以也讓實體銀行、實體保險公司去做一些網路上的銷售跟服務呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，你垂詢的也是我們正在努力的，尤其是保險，這兩年疫情期間，我們開放的一些措施，在疫情之後全部都會維持，還有今年10月我們開放保險業跟異業合作，就是朝您的方向去做的。"],["費委員鴻泰：我長期在這裡，常常都詢問你們，我是希望網路服務無遠弗屆，網路的服務很好，不要出錯，但是因為現在網路銀行跟網保還在演變蛻化之中，這個時候如果不讓實體銀行去做，而給他們一些限制，我覺得是有點可惜啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我完全同意你的意見，我可以說明，像……"],["費委員鴻泰：所以……"],["黃主任委員天牧：請指導，請指導。"],["費委員鴻泰：請講，請講。"],["黃主任委員天牧：像我們今年特別有一個金融科技法規調適平台，其實很多意見都是針對銀行，他們也說了，到底在網路上做這種銀行業務還有哪些法規障礙，這些我們都要幫大家解決。"],["費委員鴻泰：對，我是覺得我們open mind，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：不自我設限，不管實體銀行、網路銀行，不管實體保險公司跟純網保，目的都是要服務客戶，讓國家在這方面能夠進步，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：尤其我們臺灣資源有限、空間有限，當然在各種科技上，我們要走在世界的前面，對不對？這樣我們才有競爭力，所以我是覺得思考一下，也麻煩針對我今天的問題，儘快給我一個書面的回答，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們會照委員的意見。"],["費委員鴻泰：我們沒有說對誰好或對誰不好，主要的目的就是要對人民好，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我上個禮拜請教你關於臺灣在全球前百大銀行，我們沒有嘛，對不對？而且我上個禮拜也請教你有關我們的金融保險業在GDP的貢獻，這十多年來是成長有限，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我們相較於香港，保險金融業占他們的GDP都超過百分之二十幾，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：新加坡也大概占13%、14%，我們臺灣大概是多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大概7%左右吧！"],["費委員鴻泰：百分之六點多嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["費委員鴻泰：希望能夠朝著7%一步一步來邁進。現在就是觀念上到底我們是監管比較重要，還是興利比較重要？或者是我們可以把監管做得很好，興利也可以做得很好？有沒有這樣的可能？"],["黃主任委員天牧：大家對於金管會的指導通常好像都是說我們管得比較多，興利比較少，其實我們真的也有做一些興利的工作，不過如果外界有這種印象，我們會加強努力多做一些興利的工作。"],["費委員鴻泰：金管會都是專業人士，我們的銀行在服務國際方面，相對於香港、新加坡，我們就針對這兩個地區好了，憑良心講，他們可以服務的對象是比較寬廣的，至少在幣值上、在貨幣上，相對於香港和新加坡，我們在處理其他貨幣的服務上是需要來努力的，你同意吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，因為我們不像全球性的銀行有全球網路，大的企業需要全球服務的話，我們的銀行是比較沒有占到便宜的。"],["費委員鴻泰：還有一樣就是我們的觀念加上我們的人才，你要服務國際的話，你的英語能力要強，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：像香港很多人都是從小接受英文教育，而新加坡基本上溝通的語言就是英文。蔡英文總統上任以後，要開放外籍人士可以來臺灣金融就業，其實這個觀念是對的，我也很支持，當時我也沒有反對，請問這個政策落實的情況怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：國發會有一個金卡的制度，其中有很多也是金融業。"],["費委員鴻泰：好久沒有聽到金卡的業績報告了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：數字我現在……"],["費委員鴻泰：我覺得在金融業這方面真的需要加強。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我剛才講過，像我們的銀行保險占GDP的比率是6.5%上下，一直在那邊pending，如果我們可以增加到10%，GDP的1%是多少錢你知道嗎？我們去年是22兆，GDP的1%就增加很多耶！如果增加GDP的5%就是增加一兆多，可以創造多少的就業？可以讓整個國民的GDP提升多少？其實對金管會來講，我覺得這一點滿重要的，不要小看自己，上個禮拜和今天我同樣都是針對這個問題，只要我們在GDP上面的產值增加1%，你就知道對臺灣的貢獻有多大。憑良心講，對於金管會同仁的專業我都非常肯定，剩下就是你們要去遊說我們的政府，看看政策方面如何把它想得宏觀一點、想得前衛一點。在人才的落實方面，像金卡，當時蔡總統剛上任的時候，我覺得這是對的，但是我聽到這幾年的績效實在是有限，我們光看這些數字就可以解釋很多，我們的銀行加保險主要是這樣，還有證券這一方面，這十五年來我們的成長實在是有限。當然我希望你以後還可以再繼續做個十年、八年，但是在你還有半年的任期裡面，請思考一下我們金融業的今日和未來，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，謝謝委員的期許，我會在剩下的任期中去思考這個，而且儘量有一些政策能夠落實，謝謝。"],["費委員鴻泰：還有虛擬貨幣的問題今天也有很多委員都提到了，網路的世界無遠弗屆，你我的年齡不是在網路發達的時候成長，可是現在的年輕人都是在網路時代成長的，針對虛擬貨幣我們著重的是不要去洗錢，可是它還有其他的，這是壞處，但是好處也有很多，而且在未來的世界畢竟會扮演一個重要的角色，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：所以我覺得我們應該要往前看，該制定的法令就要去制定，該合作的東西就要去合作，像美國和日本的虛擬貨幣ETF都在設計、都要準備通過了，在這同時，其實臺灣不要只怕壞的那方面，憑良心講，監理適度放寬一點點，也許那個產業就有明天、有未來，對人民而言是方便的，是或不是？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員這番指導和期許，我們會引為現在開始努力的方向。"],["費委員鴻泰：麻煩主席再給我30秒，我今天提了純網銀、純網保，這和實體要去思考一下，不要故步自封。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["費委員鴻泰：我們的金融業，GDP日後要如何成長，這個要去思考；虛擬貨幣的未來是什麼，這個也要去思考，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，這幾點我們會好好努力去推動，謝謝。"],["費委員鴻泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。剛剛本來有宣告要休息，因為鍾委員有提出要求，所以我們等鍾委員質詢結束之後再休息。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029455fc3158afed93292351fad24fff329c986728e607a032204e63636352635c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳斯懷","委員發言時間":"10:24:48 - 10:34:23","影片長度":"00:09:35","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":575,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:34:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:24:48+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["吳委員斯懷：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：委員好。"],["吳委員斯懷：部長好。首先我想問一個媒體關注還有民眾關注的議題，就是國防部的軍營安全條例現在準備二讀了，我在一讀之前跟法制司相關的同仁也交換過意見，提出很多具體的地方，必須在二讀、三讀之前讓民眾能夠釋疑，因為這個條例如果你把它寫得這麼死的話，將來營區的界定……，因為現在無人機加上各種電訊偵測的器材發展得非常快速。營區安全我100%支持，必須要強化，否則我們軍隊沒有機密可言，包含演習、包含訓練，但是你這個條例訂定的規定要考慮到實際可不可以執行。現在媒體跟軍事迷，還有一般住在營區周圍的群眾、民眾有疑慮。現在的現況是，譬如說我們最清楚的花蓮機場，軍事迷就在跑道旁邊的咖啡廳，2樓是最佳景點，我都去過兩次，就看著飛機起降，大家在那邊拍照，每一個機場都有，每一個港口都有。對於這些內容的界定，現在條例裡規定的是，包含演習、包含訓場，只要軍事迷、媒體或者民眾拍照或用其他方式，不管是無人機等等拍的照，一旦在他的社群媒體披露就可能涉法，涉法的刑期判得很重。這一部分國防部有沒有在二讀之前暫緩一下，先跟民眾釋疑，甚至開個公聽會聽聽媒體代表、群眾代表的看法，交換點意見？這樣才能讓一個法令通過以後，執行上確實無礙。部長的看法？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，您講得很有道理，大家會很擔憂你規定那麼嚴格，動輒得咎。事實上，很多地方我們的母法定了以後會有很多子法，子法就不光是國防部來訂定，也有其他部會，所以我們對外的講法是就算三讀通過以後也不是馬上施行，因為行政院會要求其他各部會針對這個母法相關的子法研議，等到都很周延了才會推動。目前我們也知道外面民眾所關切的，誠如委員剛剛所講的，好像變成太嚴苛了，我們動輒法辦，不會的！事實上，有很多地方我們要讓我們推動工作於法有據，我跟委員報告一下，像以前營區裡面有人闖進去了，我們請警察幫忙，警察來會說我是依據什麼？然後就說如果沒有營區的這種規範的話，他只能以闖入民宅的方法來辦。最起碼這個法定了以後，對我們執行法的單位，不光是軍方，連同憲、警等等，他們是於法有據，在於法有據執行當中如果有任何不周延的地方，到時候在法庭他們自然會去做說明、講解，不會變成只要軍中的界線一劃，這個就變成不可侵犯，不會這樣子的。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，我想部長剛才舉的幾個案例，包含營區內部的安全維護，本席是絕對支持的，否則闖入營區沒有任何處置的法源依據，我們國軍還叫國軍嗎？但是演訓場所的界定，我希望你們找時間或者透過媒體讓群眾釋疑，連拍照都不敢拍的那些軍事迷，天天都在九鵬基地附近山頭上架著大砲，你拍了就犯法，你只要敢貼出來就判刑，像這些演習區域的界定、訓練場地的界定，民眾不見得瞭解。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["吳委員斯懷：我希望在這幾個部分多做一點更細緻的說明。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["吳委員斯懷：包含你未來執法可能會做到什麼程度？否則你這個法案通過後引起很多爭議，不是給你們徒增困擾嗎？是不是？"],["邱部長國正：是，瞭解。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，接著我再問最近媒體報導，美國空軍有位上尉軍官來臺灣住了幾個月寫出一大堆文章，不知道是依據什麼寫出來的結論，他的結論是臺灣受中國入侵有70%的人會留下來抵抗，20%的人會離開臺灣，10%的人會投降。他的位階不過是一位現役的上尉軍官，我想問問看，他來臺灣受兩個半月的專業訓練，是誰訓練他？是不是國防部邀請來的？美國奉行的是軍人不能干政啊！這位現役上尉來我們國家指指點點，還做出一些結論，我非常不認同這些，他依據什麼做出來的？部長知不知道這件事？說明一下。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我剛剛聽委員這樣講，第一個問題是誰邀請這位美軍上尉來臺？這個我還真不知道我們哪個單位去邀請，最起碼國防部沒有邀請嘛！剛剛說他有發表這些言論或什麼，我曾經對大家講得很清楚，有很多學者專家個人有什麼意見的表達，我不會去跟他爭辯，因為他有他立論的基礎。同樣的，當然委員關心的也沒有錯，他是一位美軍上尉，發表的原意為何？我還真的不太瞭解。這聯二有掌握嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：沒掌握！我希望你們去瞭解一下，他提出這個說法，雖然他位階不高，是現役上尉，但是在美國空軍部部長辦公室任職，他是受哪些特定人士、特定團體請來做大內宣，表示我們臺灣人如何、如何？一位上尉有多大的閱歷跟經驗，在臺灣住兩個月就可以發表這種言論，本席深深不以為然。我想他跟國軍有關，希望部長有空去瞭解一下來龍去脈及背景，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好，我跟委員報告，我們去瞭解好不好？因為事實上國防部沒有邀約這些人，就算來的話，一定是針對議題來討論，他不會擅自對外發布任何訊息。"],["吳委員斯懷：重點是他來臺灣受兩個半月的專業訓練，誰請他來？他受了什麼訓練？這些我們覺得很詫異，媒體登了好幾次了，我就覺得一直想問你們，今天好不容易等到部長來，你們去瞭解一下，回頭給本席一份稍微完整一點的資料，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我初步跟委員報告，國防部沒有辦什麼班隊請這些外面的來……"],["吳委員斯懷：我相信你們沒有，不然我不可能不知道，但是誰請他來的？寫得言之鑿鑿，受兩個半月專業訓練得出的結論是臺灣沒問題，我們都會抵抗。你是誰啊？你代表中華民國政府、代表國防部？這個東西請你們給我一個具體的說明。"],["邱部長國正：好，是，我瞭解。"],["吳委員斯懷：另外，美國國防部的中國軍力報告裡面寫到很多，譬如這幾年共機擾臺、網路戰都有增加很多比例的趨勢，但是他們其中最重要的幾個點，我建議你們聯二把這個重要的內容摘錄給部長參閱。其中有幾個我們比較關注的，美國國防部自己都承認，對於共軍的情報掌握沒有辦法做到很精確，有很多盲點它自己都承認，這一點很少見；美國對中國大陸的軍力報告很少自己在正式文件上說，我們對中國解放軍的情報掌握不足、能力不足，有很多盲點，沒辦法全面掌控。你沒辦法全面掌控怎麼做出情報判斷的結論，據以提供參三列舉行動方案？這個我們老軍人都很清楚，如果你情報判斷基礎不準，據以擬定你的國安政策、臺灣的兩岸政策會不會偏失？所以我覺得部長稍微關注一下這個議題，讓我們大家能夠更精準地掌握，美國究竟對解放軍瞭解的程度是什麼？好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好，這是我們應該要做的。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，謝謝部長！"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。目前收到臨時提案有兩個案子，等江啟臣委員詢答結束之後，我們進行處理，處理完畢之後我們再休息5分鐘。"],["主席（吳委員斯懷代）：下來請廖婉汝委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029505e1f8bda1419c6bdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a03223d00db2279bb929c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:17:52 - 10:29:31","影片長度":"00:11:39","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":699,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:29:31+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:17:52+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員早。"],["郭委員國文：主委好，關於開放銀行的第一階段、第二階段都已經上路了，現在好像進入深水區，也就是交易面資訊的部分，把開放銀行的政策落實是具有相當大的挑戰性階段，我個人認為這是在第三個部分。我看到第一個部分有27家銀行跟6家第三方的TSP合作，第二階段有17家跟2家TSP合作，可是主委，到了第三階段的時候，TSP的家數會不會越來越少？第三階段會不會沒有啊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們預期，因為其要求的標準更高，包括剛才沈召委提到資安上面要特別注意，我想應該不會像以前那麼多。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！現在已經6家、2家，那以後會不會更少？標準越來越高嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["郭委員國文：門檻會越來越高嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["郭委員國文：因為開放銀行這樣處理下去，我覺得最關鍵的、讓外界最擔憂的還是在於整個資安風險的應對。第二個部分，主管機關到底有沒有可能頒布一些指引規範？第三個部分是TSP分級制度，我覺得這三個部分是這樣子。","我個人在看金融科技，往往過去的操作模式都是把它當成一個體制外的沙盒模式處理，當我們付出一些社會成本之後再進行修正，這是我觀察到的第一個現象。第二個我觀察到的現象就是，主委你會把這些金融科技當成鯰魚來刺激傳統銀行，要求他們做金融科技的一些精進跟改善，結果老實講，這些創新業者的命運其實就是鯰魚而已啊！事實上他們也沒有辦法形成真正的創新業者，結果就成為你提升、改變傳統銀行業者的體質，就我覺得，主委是不是有這種可能性？先回答前面再來說後面。"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實從金融聯合總會發布的金融科技創新報告來講，過去這幾年金融業者跟科技業者合作的比率趨勢是大的，的確是這樣的趨勢。"],["郭委員國文：整體而言是有注意的啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["郭委員國文：我同意啦！只是多數人在他們人生選擇中可能離開了原來傳統的金融機構，投入所謂的金融創新，結果他們發現在制度沒有完整時，半路就死在沙灘上了，但是改變了整個體質，自己變成一個成就傳統業者的養分，這是我個人的觀察。這不是重點啦！重點是我要請你回答剛剛那個部分。","簡單的講，關於TSP，整體而言現在的方式對資安風險的應對怎麼處理？因為它將來掌握了很多訊息啊！所有的訊息中，由整個第三方來做統籌、分享，這裡頭的資安問題怎麼處理？我在想，這個第三方真的有資歷、有辦法去應對資訊風險的管控嗎？更何況銀行端都還要設立所謂的資安長，這個第三方有辦法這樣做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實您垂詢的邏輯跟剛剛沈召委垂詢的邏輯是相同的，就是覺得這三方的關係必須要拉平，才能讓民眾有信心。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我也特別要跟您報告我個人的想法，Open Banking其實是來自於一些歐美國家，那些國家的銀行競爭強度不像臺灣那麼強，所以他們 Open Banking 有很大的市場在；臺灣本身的銀行競爭就已經相對激烈了，所以民眾對於Open Banking，尤其第三階段的發展是不是跟其他國家一樣，這個我們要再觀察，可是制度上我們還是會繼續規劃下去。幾位委員對我們的垂詢指導，我們會立刻調整。"],["郭委員國文：對，參與其中的這些TSP業者當中，也有一些傳統金融機構介入、參與，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：周邊吧！然後像一些電信業者……"],["郭委員國文：對，電信業者，我手頭上這邊就有遠雄嘛……"],["黃主任委員天牧：遠傳。"],["郭委員國文：等等都有參加嘛！也有一些壽險公司……"],["黃主任委員天牧：第一階段比較多……"],["郭委員國文：國泰人壽也有嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有些記帳公司……"],["郭委員國文：對，這些都有啊！但將來會不會演變成部分的金融機構參與，另外一個部分沒有，會形成一個不公平的競業現象？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前應該不會，因為目前開放銀行第三方的制度還沒有規劃完，所以剛剛有委員垂詢什麼時候會開始，我想我們規劃完之後，包括剛剛委員您垂詢的一些事情，我們在檢討的時候會再看看整個規範是不是符合委員的期待。"],["郭委員國文：所以一部分是我們在進行第三階段交易面資訊的審議階段，另外一部分也在考慮如何把它建立一個規範，至於我剛剛提到資安的部分，頒發指引規範還有分級都可能在討論當中嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，尤其今天經過這樣的一個專案報告，我們得到委員很多的高見跟指導，我們回去會立刻再討論一下，看現在我們報來的東西是不是合乎委員的期待。"],["郭委員國文：你們約莫多久的時間會把這個討論做出一個初步的成果……"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員報告，我們原來在報告中規劃是年底，我們看儘量是不是照委員的期待在年底前，但是也符合委員對於內容上的要求。"],["郭委員國文：好，這部分變成您納管的業務好像又越來越多了，所以我再追問你一個問題，我在總質詢時問了陳建仁院長，但對你個人是不好意思，我是說有沒有可能另外把貴單位的整個組織編制多增加一個金融科技局，後來院長有沒有跟你們進行討論？"],["黃主任委員天牧：行政院有交代我們去做研究，我們也在研究中。"],["郭委員國文：研究中？那你們多久要陳報行政院？"],["黃主任委員天牧：初步意見是在現況中，我們現在還能夠接受新的業務，還能夠在行政院同意增員的額度之內做調適。"],["郭委員國文：你們要未雨綢繆啊！我都已經在幫你們講話了，你還這麼客氣！"],["黃主任委員天牧：未雨綢繆可能就要看，如果大的調整包括增加局處的話，可能要做更完整的規劃，我們正在做細部的，這還牽涉到……"],["郭委員國文：細部規劃約莫要多久？其實大家除了擔心你們管理嚴格之外，還擔心金管會的負擔過重……"],["黃主任委員天牧：這除了負擔之外，還需要看看針對這樣業務的新增，設置一些固定局處，對未來金融業發展的助益是什麼。"],["郭委員國文：而且對於社會現象產生出來的問題能夠予以遏止。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，能不能都能夠解決這些問題……"],["郭委員國文：真的，這些問題現在是層出不窮……"],["黃主任委員天牧：包括科技這些東西，金融發展……"],["郭委員國文：大家對金管會的期待又很高，所以你們的業務一定越來越重，我是建議你們這個部分內部規劃要提早進行，向上陳報，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：另外有關於純網銀部分，我看起來是有一家不符合規定，就是福爾摩莎產物保險不符合規定……"],["黃主任委員天牧：純網保。"],["郭委員國文：對。另外一家中信網路產業保險，基本上已經宣布退場，這是金管會2022年時開放純網保的唯二兩家，之所以唯二兩家，是當初你們的管理辦法第二十九條之一，關於壽險的部分，保障型商品的限制非常少，另外產險部分，創新型的定義又不清楚，現在你們又對外宣布明年1月份要開放申請純網保，明年1月開放，會不會純網保變純「亡」保，就是game over，都沒有業者了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不太確定，因為重點是市場上要提供類似這種跟異業合作的商品，事實上我們在今年10月已經大幅放寬保險業電子商務跟異業合作的一些注意事項……"],["郭委員國文：那些商品規範，已經突破第二十九條之一了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，我們有大幅突破，會後我們會提供給委員參考，現在已經有業者跟異業在做合作規劃了。"],["郭委員國文：所以說純網保的可能性還會持續進行嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：還會。"],["郭委員國文：好。另外，有關人頭戶限制的部分，您提到明年會上路，上路的部分就是會進行所謂的管制行為，假設被宣布為人頭帳戶，那麼他一天只能提領1萬元。現在問題來了，有些人頭帳戶本來也是受害者，一不小心就成了人頭帳戶，這種人會不會變成二度受害者？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個部分謝謝委員垂詢，我記得有一些例外，就是如果他以薪資為主的話，有一個帳戶可以讓他用，這個我請局長跟委員說明。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，這個是所謂的告誡戶，告誡戶是警察機關在開的……"],["郭委員國文：所以告誡戶的認定權在警察……"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：你們就看警察提供了誰，你們就負責執行？"],["莊局長琇媛：是。"],["郭委員國文：那有沒有連坐處罰？他明明只有一個帳戶被用了，那其他帳戶會不會也這樣處理？"],["莊局長琇媛：因為按照告誡戶的辦法，是以人名，就是ID控管，所以只要是那個ID的話，在銀行的所有帳戶都會……"],["郭委員國文：全部？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：那將來他還有機會透過TSP方式來進行交易嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：如果以這樣來看的話，因為他的帳戶還是控管，所以銀行在系統上會把那個帳戶做控管。"],["郭委員國文：所有可能性都沒有了？"],["莊局長琇媛：對、對。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝局長。最後我再問有關灰名單的部分，這其實也是局長的業務。灰名單其實就是把這個加碼研議出所謂殭屍帳戶的管控，我認為這是一個不錯的作法，防患於未然，但目前的問題點是灰名單的業者只有9家銀行加入，4家公股、4家民營，加上一個郵局，主委、局長，這會不會太少？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員……"],["郭委員國文：38家耶，總共，約定帳戶的部分啊！"],["莊局長琇媛：上次在委員指導之下，我們已經要求灰名單的部分會在第一季全部都要上路，剛剛委員說的那個是明年1月，到第一季是全部都要上路。"],["郭委員國文：明年1月全部都要上路？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["郭委員國文：明年1月全部上路，好，謝謝你，謝謝主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請費鴻泰費委員上台質詢，在費鴻泰委員質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。好，請費委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029f298f3f10319a90892351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322ab0d6644c104b4b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:14:07 - 10:24:28","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":621,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:24:28+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:14:07+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時14分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請教育部，先讓邱部長休息一下。"],["主席：教育部是梁副司長。"],["梁副司長學政：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問教育部，國防部針對義務役拋出了3+1方案，同時也希望大學生在3年內要完成大學學業，然後用1年的時間來服役，教育部則研擬提供經費，引導大學來協助學生完成役男專案服役，有意願申請的役男需要在學期開始的2月或9月向戶籍地公所申請，在學期當中陸續完成入伍前置作業，對不對？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以在這樣的情況之下，要在學期結束後的暑假或寒假入營服役，在完成服役之後，由各校來協助復學的輔導。所以本席在這邊要請教教育部，目前申請的人數有提高嗎？你要怎麼樣去確保不會造成學生在學習上的衝擊？你是否有持續地掌控各校的辦理情況？請說明。"],["梁副司長學政：是，跟委員報告，教育部在這個修業彈性措施有三個基本的原則，第一個就是一定要確保學生自主的意願；第二個在不影響他……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，自主的意願很重要。"],["梁副司長學政：對，第二個就是不影響他專業能力的養成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，專業能力的養成非常重要，因為是3+1，所以要思考縮短的時間要怎麼去補足。"],["梁副司長學政：是，第三個，我們會用3+1也不影響他整個畢業所要求的相關學分的條件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：畢業的要求當然不會受影響，只是說在學習歷程當中要怎麼樣能夠補足，這一點很重要。"],["梁副司長學政：是，跟委員報告，因為他有1年要服役，所以我們希望能夠3+1，就是在原來大學4年畢業這樣的期限內可以完成，那他勢必需要在其他的3年當中，譬如說原來在學期……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，4年縮為3年嘛！要怎麼去補？"],["梁副司長學政：對，如果他有這樣的意願，有這個可能性，我們必須要提供這樣的一個彈性措施。原來各校可能有限制修習的學分數，我們會希望針對有申請這個專案的學生能夠增加，另外再加暑期的暑修，還有像跨校的選修。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個本席剛剛已經告訴你了，就是在暑假、寒假嘛！"],["梁副司長學政：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那現在申請的人數有提高嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：是，跟委員報告，從這一個學年開始有學生陸續要來申請，根據到12月5日為止的資料，已經有7個學校，總共46名學生來向學校……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟你們預估的人數相符合嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：我們不敢預估，因為是尊重學生自由的意願，所以我們比較難去預估。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對這一個政策，目前有46位申請，你滿意嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：當然我們還是配合國防政策，希望持續透過學校來跟學生宣導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那我想請國防部長好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教育部稍等，謝謝，我們一起來討論。部長，因為教育部現在說是你們這邊的需求，對現在的這個人數你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有什麼滿意不滿意，我們當初訂了如果要服這個義務役的話，我們只要求1年是連著服役，沒有服一半的，寒假來一段時間、暑假來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能斷。"],["邱部長國正：對，至於其他的配套，教育部有他們的作法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你有沒有人數的KPI？你對人數有沒有什麼希望？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有期望3+1的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長沒有期望嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有，只要能夠如期的按照我們所推動1年的役期來服役就好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然有一個政策，我們當然就有一個目標嘛！現在教育部說有46名，依你們國防部的目標，你認為這樣夠嗎？是夠還是不夠？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我們沒有設定這個目標嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請說。"],["鄧司長克雄：只是其中一個選項，沒有一個目標。"],["邱部長國正：對啊！一個讓他們有多元選項的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來，請單位主管來說明一下，謝謝。"],["鄧司長克雄：跟委員報告，因為這是整個役期調整的一個配套，我們是提供有需要的在學役男學生多元的選項，給他一個管道跟一個選項，依他個人的意願跟他的能力來提出需求，所以並不是以它的數目多寡來作為它KPI的指標……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以數目不拘嘛！"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以大家講清楚喔！"],["鄧司長克雄：就是提供他一個管道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是提供一個管道，大家聽到了喔！"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以不用有壓力，要好好努力去做就對了。接下來，部長，因為單位需求的人是在您這邊來訓練，但是教育部在這邊，也就是大專院校有7所學校願意努力去辦，但是也有學校拒絕，教育部，是不是？也有學校跟你們說我沒辦法配合？"],["梁副司長學政：不會，跟委員報告，因為我們是從這個學期才開始，民國94年次的學生……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以現在有7所學校要辦？"],["梁副司長學政：目前已經有7所學校、46個學生，陸續還會有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前有7所學校。"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然是既定政策，我們也希望政府要去落實，如果人家願意辦，你們不管在經費或者是在需要協助的時候就要全力以赴。"],["梁副司長學政：那當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：才能夠達陣成功，好不好？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個要努力好不好？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們到一個階段請把數字給我，包括有幾所學校願意、有持續在辦、人數到底多少，你再提供書面資料給本席好嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回座。部長，本席要請教，我們的義務役役期從現在的4個月恢復到1年，我們規劃有5個階段的訓練，包括入伍基礎訓練、駐地訓練等等，最迷人的就是在他們的訓練當中，步槍兵實彈射擊數不得低於800發，還有操作標槍飛彈、刺針飛彈等高階專長武器，所以大家就非常期待。請教部長，我們現在符合訓練的基地夠不夠？我們目前要服1年的會有九千多人嘛。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們統計大概有9,127人，每一年一定會再增加，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教部長，我們訓練的基地現在到底夠還是不夠？"],["邱部長國正：關於訓練基地，因為它原本就有新訓任務，有幾個旅長期以來都是這幾個，後來為了這一回增加役期到1年，射擊的數量也要增加，所以我們就開闢或者去找有些可以在那邊實施訓練的靶場，我們普遍的來運用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在準備好了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我們都同步在做了，去年在宣布以後、一年多前就編組了專案小組，針對駐、用還有訓場統統同步在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，我們這九千多個1年期役男的訓練場所準備好了，我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["邱部長國正：準備好了，這沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這沒有問題？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要再請教，關於我們的軍事投資計畫，我們希望技轉能夠讓我國的國防產業跟世界接軌，這個是我非常支持的一點，所以本席要請教，我們在經濟部跟外商簽妥工業合作協議書前即先簽署發價書，事後工合的部分繼續來談判，有一個彈性嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，如果會影響到談判的彈性，那會衍生國外承包商的意願低迷，等於是不利我們整個國防工業的技轉，所以在這一點本席要請國防部跟經濟部合作，經濟部今天也有來嘛，經濟部，請。"],["主席：產發署連署長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟部也在現場，本席非常希望國防部跟經濟部要密切合作，一定要、務必要密切合作，因為我們國內的國防工業必須要由政府來協助他們，而且希望能夠技轉，讓他們跟世界接軌，這就是我們的目標，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席要請教，本黨所提出的國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案，是針對主管機關以及經濟部應該要鼓勵外國的廠商跟合格的廠商進行產業合作跟相互投資，所以我們增訂並落實技術移轉的規範來提升我們的國防自主，改善產業環境，以利我們跟世界接軌，你同不同意本黨所提出的這個法案？"],["邱部長國正：同意啦！這個對我們國防自主有幫助嘛！像剛剛委員所關切的，一定要經過哪些單位、國家，但我要跟委員報告，我們有些不管是發展或軍購各方面都跟很多地方同步在做，不能只用一個地方去做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然，廣泛性的。"],["邱部長國正：只要對我們有幫助的我們都樂見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：扶植國內的國防產業。"],["邱部長國正：事實上，現在也跟經濟部密切合作當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我今天很高興聽到部長這樣講，經濟部也在這邊，我們必須要合作來扶植國內的國防工業、產業好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，這應該要做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，接下來請吳斯懷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148951","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148951","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1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- 10:17:31","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":832,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:17:31+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:03:39+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":314,"blocks":[["李委員貴敏：（10時3分）謝謝主席。主席，我們麻煩請主委。"],["主席（沈委員發惠）：好，請黃主委上台備詢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["李委員貴敏：主委好。你記得上禮拜我在質詢你的時候你告訴我的答案，關於敵意併購的適格者的答案跟實情不符，這個你知道嘛？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，其實我們……"],["李委員貴敏：沒有關係，你告訴我……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們有發函給您報告了。"],["李委員貴敏：你告訴我你知不知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我知道。"],["李委員貴敏：你知不知道你告訴我的答案跟實際上不一樣，沒有關係，但是你知道嘛，對不對？我今天只要確定你知道……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我知道。"],["李委員貴敏：好，謝謝。因為在當天，主委，當天在你回答之後，我光是走到後面還沒出大門的時候，所有的媒體朋友就跟我講，你的答案是錯的，OK？但是還好，你當天下午就更正了嘛，你當天下午就更正了，但我還是要鼓勵一下，人誰無過，對不對？過而能改善莫大焉。對不起，我犯了大怒，不應該講這個古文的出處的。但是重點在於知道錯了可以去改它，我在這裡還是嘉勉，但是我還是要鼓勵、拜託主委，我們的憲法規定人民有知的權利，讓人民知道事實的真相，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝。"],["李委員貴敏：好，謝謝。那我們開始今天的題目，第一個就是牽涉到年底作帳的行情。主委，你認為我們年底所謂的作帳行情是可以到1萬8嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們不預估股價。"],["李委員貴敏：好。因為我們看到媒體的報導，還有民間的憂慮，你剛剛前面才答應我說你會讓老百姓知道事實的真相嘛！我沒有要你預估。但是在民間就有顧慮，到底現在是一個作帳行情，還是一個作夢的行情？主委怎麼看？是作帳，還是作夢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：證券市場就是資訊揭露，民眾就是審慎選股，注意風險。"],["李委員貴敏：對。但是我們看到11月的營收公布了，11月的營收我們看起來並沒有大幅度的起色，可是我們的股價是不跌，然後反而竄升，所以民間才在說到底年底的作帳是真的有作帳行情，還是單純的作夢，這個是炒出來的？您沒有觀察到這個現象，還是說有這個現象、民間有這個顧慮，但是你置之不理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：股價有些反應是國際跟國內一些經濟金融情況的變化，尤其我們是以半導體電子產業為主，所以跟美國的費城半導體或NASDAQ的連結是有一定的程度。"],["李委員貴敏：好，是因為國外國際股市影響的關係？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有一些產業，不是所有。"],["李委員貴敏：OK，所以也要提醒民眾，因為顯然11月的營收出來，各公司出來的情況都不太妙啦！我第二個問題要請教的，同樣，我今天問的問題都牽涉到民眾知的權利，純網銀的虧損是持續擴大，今年6月份我們看到虧損的數額，從2022年底，再比較到今年第三季的數字，它是持續的擴大，這個在5年之內它是可以損益兩平嗎？目前的現狀是怎麼樣？這些純網銀的部分會再繼續投入，還是我們的金管會到底做了什麼樣一個措施？"],["黃主任委員天牧：今年至少有兩家以上辦理增資，我們不斷的跟他溝通，他需要哪些業務的開放，這是我們在做的。"],["李委員貴敏：對，那你有沒有全部公開，然後讓全民知道？因為我們在搜查資料的時候好累喔！"],["黃主任委員天牧：今天我們的報告就是已經公開了。"],["李委員貴敏：5年內損益兩平是可以達成的是不是？很務實的回答我。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有這樣子預估，我至少在過去財委會有說有一家有可能也許在5年之後會有損益兩平。"],["李委員貴敏：好，所以只有一家……"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為他開業時間不一樣。"],["李委員貴敏：好，所以其他部分是你希望，但是他沒有辦法達成就是了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這是要大家努力的，不是只有金管會。"],["李委員貴敏：不是，這個已經虧損這麼多的努力的金額，就是說欠錢欠一定比例的錢，然後能不能達成，就是它有一個比較務實的評估方式，然後你的鼓勵措施是什麼？這個可不可以公布？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個就在今天的報告中……"],["李委員貴敏：沒有，我就是沒看到才會問你嘛！對不對？我要的是很務實的，而不是說我提到一句話，今天的報告裡面就有。我再另外提一個東西也是民眾非常非常關心的，那就是投資詐騙，主委，這個投資詐騙的東西我可不是只告訴你1年、2年而已，對不對？這個在以前很早的時候我就已經提醒了，可是我們看到今天這個投資詐騙創新高，然後關於解決的部分，數發部說他們有建立，唐部長跟Meta也好、跟Google也好，他們有溝通，然後金管會也上了這個平台，我們看到你上了平台之後，這個投資詐騙的廣告是暴增的，除了1.5萬件之外，這個是表面上的，還不包括潛在的，潛在的部分還有更多，所以對於這個東西，金管會有沒有在我們提醒了1、2年之後究竟做了什麼樣的措施？我們也知道，主委，你不會否認現在民眾用的最多的是LINE嘛，對不對？是不是？還是你否認？"],["黃主任委員天牧：用了多少，我想LINE是其中之一吧！"],["李委員貴敏：多不多？"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是多少，我沒有這個數據。"],["李委員貴敏：我沒有問你數據，我說多不多嘛？"],["黃主任委員天牧：多是一個相對的概念，我不知道……"],["李委員貴敏：你連多不多都不肯承認它多不多，那我就回答你……"],["黃主任委員天牧：都很多，每個平台都很多。"],["李委員貴敏：都很多，謝謝，都很多！那我們解決了Google、解決了Meta，LINE的地方不用解決嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，LINE不是屬於金管會這邊在上次規劃範圍之內的。"],["李委員貴敏：好，所以簡單來講，Google是你主管的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：Google也不是我們主管，我們只是在……"],["李委員貴敏：Meta是你主管的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：也都不是我們主管，只是在投信投顧法安排一個條文。"],["李委員貴敏：既然這些……，不是，那你的回答要有邏輯啊！對不對？我問你LINE的部分，你說LINE不是你主管，然後我前面才誇獎你Meta跟Google解決了，那Meta跟Google也不是你主管的，為什麼它們二個解決了，LINE……"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是跨部會合作要求在投信投顧法訂一個法源。"],["李委員貴敏：懂了，所以簡單來講，Meta跟Google的解決跟金管會無關，是因為跨部會的關係解決，所以現在LINE不解決，就是跨部會也有問題，所以它沒辦法解決，因為這三個都不是金管會主管，所以沒有辦法解決！邏輯是這樣子嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個我們會再繼續努力。"],["李委員貴敏：不是，我剛剛問你的問題，你哪一件事情不持續努力了？我們現在要解決問題啊！我們現在不是要行政單位一天到晚制定規則A、B、C，然後要老百姓屈服，今天你在說很多問題，前面說我們應該要仲介的部分，叫民眾不要受騙什麼東西，你的職責不在叫民眾不要受騙啊！是不是？你既然是在管，那麼你主掌的職務你就要負責。好，我們再看一下，主委，你說洗錢防制是你管吧，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：金融機構的洗錢防制。"],["李委員貴敏：好，你上次的答案是說合法機構的洗錢防制。"],["黃主任委員天牧：金融機構的洗錢防制。"],["李委員貴敏：好，你今天更正，也很好！那我就請教一下，主委，高資產客戶的財富管理會不會變成洗錢的一個管道？我說開放外銀會不會變成一個洗錢的管道？會，還是不會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個推論我覺得有問題，任何的業務都要受到……"],["李委員貴敏：那我告訴你，我覺得沒問題，你知道為什麼我覺得沒問題？主委，我覺得你應該比我熟，過往是不是曾經就有過外銀幫我們某一個政治人物的錢大筆、大筆的洗？媒體上面也有講啊！那個訊息你不知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：任何金融機構的業務都有可能……"],["李委員貴敏：不是，我問你知不知道那個訊息？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我聽說過。"],["李委員貴敏：我剛剛前面提到，我沒有指人道姓的原因是我不希望把這個模糊焦點，對不對？但那個訊息，就是過往外銀在洗錢的部分，幫政治人物洗錢這件事情你知道嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我應該有聽說過。"],["李委員貴敏：好，很好，沒關係，因為我們不講誰嘛！但是現在對於高資產客戶的財富管理，你怎麼避免類似的情形發生？還是現在就有政治人物需要捲款潛逃，透過洗錢的這個方式來做？有沒有這樣的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：申請的時候就會去做審查。"],["李委員貴敏：申請的時候去審查什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：申請開辦業務的時候就會做審查。"],["李委員貴敏：你是審查誰？"],["黃主任委員天牧：審查申請要做高資產客戶財管業務的金融機構。"],["李委員貴敏：對，然後怎麼樣子……"],["黃主任委員天牧：它的審查計畫……"],["李委員貴敏：你去審查它之後它就不會有洗錢的問題，你這個邏輯是怎麼出來的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它的計畫中會列出它在洗錢防制的規劃跟執行。"],["李委員貴敏：對，那怎麼樣呢？你過往沒做嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：都有做。"],["李委員貴敏：我剛剛前面講的那個案子，你沒做嗎？那你都有做，為什麼前面的案子發生了？你現在做的跟前面那個案子發生的內容是什麼差異性呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那是後面執行或是違法的問題。"],["李委員貴敏：好，很好，對不對？主委，你願意坦誠講，我們才能夠解決問題！執法的問題，現在這個高資產客戶財務管理的部分，你怎麼樣透過你的執法確定它不會成為政治人物洗錢的管道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們金融機構都有跟法務部的洗錢犯罪防制中心，如果有疑似的交易就會通報。"],["李委員貴敏：那以前為什麼會發生呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員……"],["李委員貴敏：你以前沒有跟法務部有聯絡？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，那個個案我不太清楚，我只知道有這樣一個印象。"],["李委員貴敏：對，但是你現在就要面對它嘛！以前發生的就是給你一個教訓嘛！對不對？你已經上了一課，你就要解決嘛！這種用迴避的方式─我們會盡力、我們會努力、謝謝委員指導！這個真的不必要啦！","下一個我要請教你就是，主委，同樣的，我們講虛擬資產監理的部分，你現在是不做嘛！但是我提醒你，Z世代，也就是我們說11歲到26歲Z世代的部分，他們對於虛擬資產的投資占比是相當大的，這個東西，你是打算怎麼樣子來保護我們這些年輕人？還是你的邏輯就是我要提醒他，他自己做的事情自己負責？就這樣子？還是說你現在是用什麼樣的態度？因為71%的民眾認為應該要強化監理，你現在是認為不需要還是怎麼樣？金管會態度是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們是投資型虛擬資產的主管機關，9月份發布指導原則，年底VASP工會成立，會訂自律規範。"],["李委員貴敏：主委，你真的要這樣子念書、背的話就沒什麼太大意思了，你知道X世代、Y世代、Z世代，還是你不知道？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我知道。"],["李委員貴敏：好，那Z世代是幾歲啊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：1995年以後出生的。"],["李委員貴敏：好，沒關係，差一點點無所謂啦！但對於這些人，你跟他們講說我們有什麼東西，你要他……就解決問題了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：上架、資產區隔、冷熱錢包，這些都是我們在九大原則中有規劃的。"],["李委員貴敏：主委你這樣講就沒意思了，我們看到JPEX問題，你解決了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：那個不是，那是off show的，不是on show的。"],["李委員貴敏：對啊，那你為什麼讓off show的在臺灣能夠買賣呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：任何非法的東西都不是我們能完全禁止的，但是我們會廣為宣傳……"],["李委員貴敏：我的天啊！所以你的態度就是對於非法的部分沒輒，你要老百姓自己去決定它是合法、非法，你只做大內宣，要他們自己注意。","最後一個問題請教之後我就下台，關於防疫險的部分，再保你有出面協調嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：現階段我們不會介入，那是商業上的契約。"],["李委員貴敏：那再保公司不賠的話，對我們的業者有多大的衝擊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：會不會賠我不確定，我不能回答假設性的問題……"],["李委員貴敏：沒關係，我就假設嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不能回答假設性的問題。"],["李委員貴敏：假設性問題你不回答，然後你對真正發生的問題遺憾，那我們怎麼解決問題呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有說對真正發生的問題遺憾，真正發生的問題需要相關法律形式程序，需要政府機關說明的，我們會說明。"],["李委員貴敏：你不覺得這個事情，我們說預防勝於治療，你不認同？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，商業契約處理的時間是很重要的。"],["李委員貴敏：所以民間的問題，你不管就好？"],["主席：好，李委員……"],["李委員貴敏：我再請教，你知道寵物保險現在剩兩家，那毛小孩怎麼辦啊？你也不管？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為它的損失率非常高，業者做不下去，所以目前只有兩家。"],["李委員貴敏：所以你就是不管，政府的態度就是即便知道問題發生，然後這些民間要處理的事情民間自己處理，那我們就乾脆無政府嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這樣的說法並不公平……"],["李委員貴敏：如果是這樣的態度的話，我會認為乾脆就無政府，這些錢省下來。以上謝謝。"],["主席：好，李委員謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，謝謝你。生日快樂。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的配合，李委員生日快樂。"],["李委員貴敏：謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝大家的祝賀，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請郭國文委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a7202981a18d680cb3ca9692351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322f1752e0d5a860ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:03:49 - 10:13:51","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":602,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:13:51+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T10:03:49+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時3分）謝謝主席，麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。我們常在國防委員會討論一些決策的問題，因為不管是武器的研製、採購或者是軍事的部署，從決策到執行，部隊是一個口令一個動作，所以決策很重要，也因此我今天特別在我們這一屆任期的最後階段，希望跟部長討論一件事情，我覺得這個決策看起來不大，但影響其實很深遠。不管是我們自己國造的武器，比如天弓系列、雄風系列，或者是雷霆2000，或是我們對外採購的，不管是現在傳說的AGM-158，或者是F-16V或海馬斯，我們都是追求更精準、打得更遠、嚇阻力更大，也就是精準、更遠，花的經費其實相當多。回到我們的單兵，也就是一個步兵擁有的突擊步槍，相較這些大筆的金額，其實金額並不大，但是我們的步槍對單兵的作戰能力，特別是在國土保衛戰，我們看到不管是發生在以色列，過去發生在喬治亞，或是現在發生在烏克蘭，臺灣是一個城鎮遍布的環境，我們沒有像大國有一大片的曠野和沙漠，所以精準、打得遠，對於提高步兵存活率和戰鬥力其實是很重要的，我相信部長在這方面比我更專業。現在我們的單兵所使用的步槍，我也看到軍備局確實有開始研製下一代XT112步槍，但我必須提出意見，這項決策我真的希望部長思考看看。國軍現有的步槍是T91嘛！"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["王委員定宇：但是我們的後備部隊以及一些支援型的部隊還在用T65K2。我先請教部長，就你瞭解，我們T91的評價如何？"],["邱部長國正：針對T91，目前官兵的反映各方面都還滿不錯的。"],["王委員定宇：其實我們T91的評價是好的、是不錯的，我們的武器可以出口，T91的槍還是我們少數可以出口的裝備之一，所以針對T91，包含國際上的分析，認為臺灣的國造T91步槍是一把好槍，做得不錯，這個要肯定。T91步槍的口徑是5.56的，傳統都是5.56的嘛，而現在我們的後備部隊及支援型部隊還有部分是用T65K2，我們的T91還沒有全面換裝完成，我這樣詮釋對不對？目前應該是這樣子吧！現在T91的評價其實不錯，包括穩定度各方面都還不錯，我們現在進行研製的XT112下一個新世代的步槍，它的口徑是不是還是5.56？還是5.56嘛！"],["邱部長國正：我請軍備局來說明。"],["林局長文祥：我是軍備局局長，跟委員報告還是5.56。"],["王委員定宇：為什麼要維持5.56？"],["林局長文祥：它還要再加裝一些夜戰的……"],["王委員定宇：我們還要加裝一些光學瞄準……"],["林局長文祥：是，按照陸軍的……"],["王委員定宇：那個我等一下會提，我的意思是說我們下一代單兵用的步槍，口徑為什麼還是維持5.56？它並沒有變新，你懂我的意思嗎？口徑是一樣嘛！"],["林局長文祥：報告委員，因為我們在射擊時，5.56是造成人體傷害的口徑，目前美軍對於人體的傷害也是都採取5.56口徑的。"],["王委員定宇：所以我就要跟你提這一點嘛，5.56有它的優點，它穿透性好，以前俄製的大概是7.62的，它是撞擊力大，打了會停下來，我們的5.56打幾槍，中彈之後可能第一時間還不曉得、還會往前跑，加上現在各國的防彈鋼板越做越好，所以就5.56的穿透力和嚇阻力……，尤其我們的兵是精兵，對方可能是用人海，如果我們不能壓制住他，他還是往前衝的話……，其實這是一些思維的考慮。我現在要提的就是我們在有限的經費下，有兩件事情是我今天要具體建議的，美國下一代的步槍已經不是用5.56了，他們的下一代步槍是用6.8mm的，他們的下一代步槍當然有很多新的設計，他們的XM7是用6.8mm，老共現在正在用的步槍已經揚棄AK系列了，他們現在也是用6.8的……"],["林局長文祥：5.8……"],["王委員定宇：6.8，大家都開始採用6.8的，但是我們現在國造的下一代步槍還是維持5.56的，關於這一點，部長，因為你們是專家，是不是在我們相關的兵工產業討論看看？如果我們要研製下一代的新時代步槍，我們跟盟友之間又是合作關係，我們在步槍的口徑上有沒有必要思考大家下一代走同樣的，因為口徑的銜接是有影響的。第二個，會走到6.8有它的原因、道理在，特別是現代戰爭，在研究口徑上，就像我剛才講的，要打得準、打得遠，雖然口徑大後座力就大，但是它相較來講有一些優點。","另外，我們的資源有限，國防資源永遠不夠，我講真的，這是永遠不夠的。部長，我們在這邊共事那麼久了，我永遠都是希望給國軍更多的預算、更多的資源，讓我們的官兵弟兄用更好的裝備，防彈背心要用更好的，我們的槍要用更好的，是不是在現階段的這些經費上，把我們現在評價不錯、還沒有全面換裝完成的T91……。其實在未來的戰爭環境，光學瞄準打得準，握把打得準，然後可以看得更遠，我們現在就是訓練實戰化，可是我們訓練實戰化用的是那個圈孔的瞄準，並沒有光學瞄準，在平常訓練時是這樣打，等到戰場上給他光學瞄準，他還未必會。所以我的意思是說，我們現在單兵要特戰化，作戰環境訓練實戰化，而我們所處的環境掩體、房舍、精準度、射擊距離對單兵的存活率其實很有幫助，所以在這樣的情形下，就我們下一代研製的步槍XT-112，我具體建議國防部思考下一代我們國軍弟兄所需要步槍的口徑是不是應該往6.8走。我沒有定論，我尊重專家，我只是告訴你，各國是往這樣走，那我們自己還在維持5.56。至於說我們現在庫存一大堆5.56的子彈要怎麼樣處理，那個不是問題啦！因為我們如果未來走到那一天的時候，T-91就會變後備部隊的，好槍給後備部隊嘛！我們現役的主戰部隊開始先換裝下一代新式步槍，可以走6.8mm的，所以子彈不會浪費的啦！","所以我提出兩個建議，在研製方面思考新一代步槍的口徑跟需求，因為我們現在只是試做幾把而已，錢還沒有砸下去，研製都還在構思當中，否則走到未來決定量產了，我再來講這個，我覺得就是浪費公帑了，所以要思考第一步走對來。第二個，對於我們現有的部隊，特別是主戰部隊，是不是全面的把光學瞄準跟握把變標配，讓他作戰訓練實戰化，讓他平常就熟悉這些裝備，在面對不管是灘頭、城鎮各種作戰環境，精準度提高，存活率提高，射擊距離拉遠。我們不管是雄二、雄三、弓二、弓三，我們在用所有新式大裝備的時候，都在思考更準、更遠、存活率更高。我們最寶貴的國軍弟兄姊妹們在使用單兵作戰武器的時候，其實應該要套進同樣的思維。未來我們每一個單兵都是我們國家重要的資產，存活率要提高，訓練要提升，然後讓他掌握的裝備跟真實要用的裝備能夠一致，這樣對我們國軍建立一個具備嚇阻力的戰鬥力量才有幫助。","我剛才提出這些建議，因為我怕這是這個會期我們兩個人最後一次見面，希望不是啦！也歡迎來我那邊坐。我是不是跟主席借幾分鐘，請問部長怎麼看這個事情？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，委員的看法很對，我們任何一個建案，第一個考量就是為什麼要建這個案，一定是因為敵情，敵情有了變化，我們也要與時俱進，所以我們說有這麼做的需要，第一個是考量任務，看任務能不能執行；第二個是考量敵人有什麼變化，我們也要跟著變化，這絕對是對的。剛剛委員提的建議也有很具體的，我想我們國軍建案也好，建軍這個工作要與時俱進，敵情有什麼變化，別的國家有如何的發展，這都是很好的參考，國軍不會停止我們的腳步，我們不管以後在建案各方面，從飛彈到槍砲到一般個人用的武器，我想都要把握這個原則來做。"],["王委員定宇：我相信邱部長啦！是不是把我剛才提的這件事情納入一個正式的討論評估？"],["邱部長國正：是，我瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：因為還來得及，我們還沒開始，所以思考清楚，把它一次做對來，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：這是應該的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}},{"id":"148949","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148949","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029daeec09b911980edbdc0b11ed89c5ff9c986728e607a0322530e3db8d85c974a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:51:38 - 10:03:34","影片長度":"00:11:56","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回顧與展望（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院民進黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案。\n【12月11日及13日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-10-8-20-20"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":716,"end_time":"2023-12-11T10:03:34+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:51:38+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時51分）主席，請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委早。"],["沈委員發惠：主委早。我們今天所列的專題報告主題，除了剛剛已經有一些委員討論的純網保、純網銀的發展以外，另外一個部分就是有關我們開放銀行政策的回顧跟展望。有關我們的開放銀行政策，包括你今天的書面報告，就是我們在開放銀行部分是分為三個階段來辦理，第一個階段大概單純是公開資料、公開資訊的揭露，第二個階段則是在這些個資的部分，要進入第三階段就牽涉到交易面了，對不對？我這樣理解對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的，比較牽涉到個人交易面的敏感資訊。"],["沈委員發惠：就不只是資訊了，它是交易面了，這才是第三階段嘛，前二個階段都是資訊啦，都是公開的資訊或者是個人資訊。大概在108年9月（2019年9月）第一個階段就已經開始做了，是公開資料查詢，109年12月是第二個階段，是消費者資訊查詢，大概都可以，我們接下來，以我的理解，以你的報告，我們要在今年年底要實施第三階段，是不是？要進入第三階段了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是這樣子，報告中是說我們做好自律規範跟資安相關的機制，把它報備之後，要讓社會大眾向銀行業者瞭解。"],["沈委員發惠：我們預計什麼時候？在這邊講好了，預計什麼時候？"],["黃主任委員天牧：恐怕應該要到明年上半年了，如果有業者願意去做的話。"],["沈委員發惠：明年上半年？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，6月以前。"],["沈委員發惠：那我們自己的準備工作，包括我們公會所做的第三階段有關交易部分的自律規範，是不是我們已經擬定出來了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，就是年底前我們會核備。"],["沈委員發惠：年底前會核備？"],["黃主任委員天牧：今年年底前會核備。"],["沈委員發惠：他們送給我們了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有，有。"],["沈委員發惠：好，送給我們了，它跟第二階段的自律規範有沒有什麼樣的差別？一模一樣還是……"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該比較複雜，主要是交易面、資安面等方面牽涉到……"],["沈委員發惠：對，因為牽涉到交易面，但是我沒有看到……"],["黃主任委員天牧：請局長說明一下。"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，因為第三階段是交易要發動，所以其實資安就非常重要，現在公會訂的以及財金公司訂的資安及技術的標準裡面，會針對哪些可以開放做交易訂出一些項目，以及應該注意的個資還有資安的一些標準。"],["沈委員發惠：你沒有回答我的問題啦，我是說他們已經送來了，你們看過了沒有？現在新的、針對第三階段的自律規範跟原本第二階段的自律規範相比有沒有改變？"],["黃主任委員天牧：請局長講。"],["沈委員發惠：就是針對交易的部分，有沒有更加嚴謹？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，裡面其實有幾項重點，就是說……"],["沈委員發惠：你跟我講有沒有改變就好了。"],["莊局長琇媛：有，有改變。"],["沈委員發惠：好。因為我在看這個，主委，我們第一階段只是單純公開資訊查詢的時候，有27家金融機構及6家TSP業者參與；到第二階段開始要揭露個資的時候，就縮到剩下17家金融機構參與，也就是有10家他說我公開資訊可以，但是要到個資，他就不參與開放銀行這部分了，TSP業者也從6家縮成2家。以這樣的作法來看，我們在一開始第一階段實施光是公開資訊，我們有38家金融業者，只有27家參加，有11家不願意參加開放銀行的公開資訊的部分；接下來就要進入第三階段，在第三階段的部分，我們預計會有多少家來參與呢？這部分我們有沒有瞭解。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想家數應該不會像第一階段那麼多，主要是因為交易面牽涉到的資訊特別敏感，所以大家是不是信任那個TSP業者、TSP業者願不願意做都是一個因素。"],["沈委員發惠：對，主委，你講到重點了，大家信不信任TSP業者，你講的金融機構這麼專業都不知道信不信任了，更何況消費者，這是一個三方的關係……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這是金融業者跟TSP業者以及消費者三方的關係，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：三方的關係中，如果連金融業者對TSP業者都還有一些疑慮的話，那消費者要怎麼相信，他要如何信任這個平臺呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：誠如您剛剛也垂詢的，所以我們對於公會跟財經的規範才會不一樣……"],["沈委員發惠：現在有二個部分，公會是自律規範的部分……"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：財經公司是針對，因為它完全是線上的東西，我們對於它的資安的要求一定是最重要的，尤其要進入交易層面更重視資安的要求，但是我們知道，依照現在的法令，我們的銀行金融業者本身，因為是國家基礎建設，所以我們對它的資安要求等級是最高的，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：是最高的，但是我們對TSP業者的資安要求有到這個等級嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：TSP業者必須透過銀行與其之間的關係去制約它，而不是透過我們。"],["沈委員發惠：對，我們對於TSP業者的資安要求有到銀行這個等級嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有。對。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有嘛！對啊！但是事實上它在做同樣的事，它必須可以存款、可以扣款、可以交易、可以做帳戶的變動。"],["黃主任委員天牧：不過像第二階段是集保跟遠傳，這個部分集保當然就是我們的周邊單位，相對大家比較，我覺得……"],["沈委員發惠：所以我的意思是在資安技術層面的要求上，我們認為你至少在要進入第三階段的時候，對於這些TSP業者的資安要求應該要有所提升，至少TSP業者是不是有設專業的資安人員，這個我們都不知道，目前也沒有規範、沒有要求，更何況如果萬一這些TSP業者的網路服務是委外，它再委外進行網路服務的話，那這些網路服務作業的資安要求層級就更低了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，非常感謝您今天提出這些提醒，因為我自己沒有看到它在局裡審查，我回去之後會立刻找局裡面，就您所垂詢的重點去檢視是不是符合這樣的要求。"],["沈委員發惠：好。一樣是這部分，我要再談的是消費者，如果萬一發生消費爭議，我剛剛講過，它是三方關係，是消費者、TSP業者跟金融機關三方的關係，它有3個合約的關係，但卻在一次交易行為裡面完成，之後如果萬一發生消費爭議的時候，他有什麼樣的申訴管道？這部分也非常重要。我看到目前現在到第二階段的銀行公約自律規範，其中第十條規定有關消費爭議，於一定金額內由會員銀行先行給付給消費者，就是發生糾紛之後，銀行先給付給消費者，但是這個一定金額是多少是各銀行自訂，自己訂多少金額還是公會大家有一個規定說在多少金額之下，金融機構必須先行承受？"],["黃主任委員天牧：2萬塊錢，報告委員。"],["沈委員發惠：目前我知道，這2萬塊是我們規定的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是公會訂的。"],["沈委員發惠：公會規定2萬塊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["沈委員發惠：因為我看到臺灣企銀跟第一銀行在網頁上面，他們有公開說2萬塊錢他們會先支付，但其他的銀行都沒有揭露這些訊息，我不知道其他銀行的金額是多少。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會要求他揭露，這是公會訂定的。"],["沈委員發惠：再來，有關爭議發生時的處理機制，主委，目前我們民眾如果跟銀行之間發生消費糾紛，可依照金融消費者保護法受到保護，會有一個評議的程序，但是我如果透過TSP平臺，它所適用的法規，按照自律公會第三條裡面提到，如果有爭議，他是受到消費者保護法的保護，他是受到比較低階的消費者保護法的保護，但是我如果是跟銀行發生糾紛則受到金融消費者保護法的保護，這部分我們是不是應該要請銀行自律公會，在他們的自律規範裡面把它提升到金融消費者保護的層級？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，委員您垂詢的部分，我們也一併去檢討。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分我認為是應該啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["沈委員發惠：最後一點時間，兩個禮拜之前金管會曾經發布新聞稿，呼籲民眾有關資金借貸或債務協商等需求勿輕信代辦業者，金管會在11月29號有發這樣子的新聞稿，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上過去10年金管會發了十幾次這樣的新聞稿，但是我們在電視上還是有看到一些代辦業者的廣告、電視廣告都有，不是所有的代辦業者都是非法的，可能有一些是合法的，例如銀行所委託的，銀行自己委託辦理房貸、車貸、委外辦理行銷業務受委託的機構，這個可能就是合法的代辦業者，因為代辦業者在法律上，在我們所有的規則裡面，我們也看到代辦業者的定義，對不對？主委，現在……"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們下一次做宣導的時候把它定義清楚，是什麼樣的情況之下的代辦業者民眾要小心。"],["沈委員發惠：對，你們那天所發的新聞稿，你們在新聞稿的最下面有提供一個資訊，說如果民眾有需求，可以利用中華民國銀行商業同業公會全國聯合會網站貸款免費資訊專區，點進去這個專區，你們新聞稿裡面這樣講，結果我點進去這個專區裡面，我看它裡面有關業者行銷的檔案再點進去，我再點進去看，裡面的資料是102年的，是11年前的資料。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個不應該，我們回去立刻去調整，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：我的時間到了，這部分我要跟主委講，像這種我們發布新聞提醒消費者小心，但是我們卻沒有提供真正讓消費者能夠清楚如何受到保護的資訊，這樣很不應該。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員，這個的確不應該這樣子，我們會立刻改進，謝謝委員指導。謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。主委請回座。下一位請李貴敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-20-20","speakers":["沈發惠","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李貴敏","郭國文","費鴻泰","鍾佳濱","高嘉瑜","陳椒華","林楚茵","羅明才"],"page_start":293,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧就（一）「開放銀行」（Open Banking）政策之回\n顧與展望、（二）純網銀、純網保之發展與挑戰進行專題報告，並備質詢； 二、審查本院民進\n黨黨團擬具「中央政府總預算案審查程序第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00004"}}},{"id":"148948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029d83699840f43e86592351fad24fff329c986728e607a0322b52d3f1a881be2f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:54:39 - 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LED或類似太陽能的相關組件，因為中國用削價競爭模式，導致臺灣的競爭力逐漸下降？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。這確實是國際社會上非常關切的議題。對臺灣來講，就成熟製程部分來說我們有幾個方向：一，即使是成熟製程，我們希望更多的是成熟製程裡的特殊製程！而特殊製程要跟客戶做相對接的研發與驗測，如此才能確保我們仍可以持續作為國際的重要供應鏈。二，從明年開始的晶創計畫希望能讓我們的半導體，不管是製造端或IC設計端都能再往前推進，並更與國際供應鏈合作，這是民主自由國家都在思考怎麼樣一起合作，來應對未來趨勢……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯！現在全世界都看到中國在先進製程的競爭力拼不過我們台積電，所以才會在成熟製程這一塊大量投入，他們想要用這個當武器去掐住全球半導體的供應鏈！因為所謂的成熟製程，包括車用晶片和一些AI，在全球有75%以上都採用成熟製程。如果未來這一塊被中國掐住了市占率，他們再採削價競爭的模式，那我覺得這件事情是應該要被擔心的！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以除了我們自己要精進外，我們相信臺灣除了台積電護國神山，還有更多像聯電、力積電，這些也是護國群山。我要跟部長具體建議，如果成熟製程的設備或人才，也就是臺灣的設備或人才要輸往中國，一旦中國的廠商背後有官方色彩的話，我覺得我們至少要有備查或審查這二個強度。當然，並不是不讓它過去，但是他要過去的時候，至少要讓我們經濟部可以精準的抓到哪一些設備商可能會跟中國的攻擊性投資兜在一起，部長，我覺得這件事情我們是不是要認真來思考一下做這樣的管制，其實這個也是很輕度的管制，但至少可以保護我們臺灣的半導體成熟製程，我覺得這個是不是應該要來思考看看？"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝委員，這個有一點細膩，而且這個也需要跟相關的國家一起來協商，不過委員建議的部分，我們回去之後來會大力來思考，這個……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得這個部分我們應該要早一點防患於未然啦，因為我們知道中國就不是跟你做公平競爭啊，第一個，他們從過去的海盜王國，設備一進來，他們有可能就整個給你照抄，他也不管你所謂的智慧財產權，中國不理這一塊！既然不理這一塊的話，如果我們臺灣去參與了他的，我們提供設備，我們雖然是賣給他設備，但是後來、未來他不需要了，他就自己做了，他就自己做了，然後變成臺灣去加速了中國成熟製程的進展，這個我們要小心，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，所以我覺得這一塊我們要趕快提出臺灣的因應措施，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，第二個問題，我知道現在經濟部以及相關的部會、國科會，事實上也有在考慮嘉義可能是需要，包括我們要有再生水廠，包括未來可能要有海淡廠，我想這些都是嘉義未來要邁向我們要有一些科技產業的布局所需，因為我們需要確保用水的供應無虞。如果我們要投入再生水廠的話，我想要請教部長的是，再生水廠的範圍是不是可以把我們相關的，因為嘉義科學園區旁邊就是馬稠後，我們是不是可以把馬稠後也納入所謂再生水的範圍，以提高未來這些科技廠需要再生水時的水量。"],["王部長美花：是，這個部分，應該是說國科會不要只管科學園區，委員講得很好，就是說附近的這一些如果可以連在一起來思考再生水的話，那會比較有效率，甚至可以再提高。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為嘉義的科學園區跟馬稠後大概距離不到3公里啦，它相對是很近的，所以我們如果可以把這二個園區，用一個大的同心圓概念，把它都納入所謂再生水，我想未來任何科技廠需要使用再生水時，它的水源會更多。"],["王部長美花：是，這個在跨部會討論的時候我們會提出來。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，當然最後還是要拜託部長成就我們嘉義，替我們再繼續美言啦，我想嘉義也希望像邱委員所說的一樣，就是我們整個半導體產業的廊帶，在南臺灣這邊是一個整體布局嘛，而這個整體布局最北端大概就是嘉義啊，整個南科創造的半導體廊帶，我們嘉義應該也是要加入成為一分子，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，不是嘉義就是高雄啦。部長，特別是剛剛提到的成熟製程的人才跟設備輸出，之前我也跟你反映過，今天主席（召委）也提出，希望是不是能夠在1個月之內，針對成熟製程的部分，未來如果你不做相關的管制，未來它可能會占到市占率50%。所以針對成熟製程的設備、人才的輸出，你們一定要有相關的管制，不管是事先的審查，還是剛剛召委所說的事後查備或者是備查，都要有相關的機制啦，你們不能完全沒有管制，就讓他要去就去，這樣不但是人才會外流，設備也會讓他們獨占，未來這個可能對會護國神山群形成一些負面的作用，這部分是不是1個月之內？"],["王部長美花：我們跨部會來討論。"],["主席：是不是1個月之內提出，可不可以？"],["王部長美花：這個相關的討論恐怕會需要比較久的時間，因為它涉及到跨部會的問題。"],["主席：那改成2個月啦。"],["王部長美花：3個月好不好？"],["主席：好，3個月，謝謝。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：部長應該可以感受到現在都是高雄跟嘉義在關心半導體未來的發展，我們都很關心。","登記發言委員除不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員呂玉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","翁重鈞","陳椒華","邱志偉","呂玉玲","陳超明","蘇治芬"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00003"}}},{"id":"148946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0ee4ec253a72029dd3d3dbef777a57e92351fad24fff329c986728e607a032260c7ea4c0278d45c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳以信","委員發言時間":"09:41:35 - 09:54:23","影片長度":"00:12:48","會議時間":"2023-12-11T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精進作為」，併請內政部、教育部、勞動部列席，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,19],"id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1"},"date":"2023-12-11","duration":768,"end_time":"2023-12-11T09:54:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-11T09:41:35+08:00","features":["gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["陳委員以信：（9時41分）謝謝召委。是不是請邱部長？"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員以信：部長早安，你是陸軍出身嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員以信：你知不知道AR-15的步槍？"],["邱部長國正：AR-15可能很早期的，我沒有研究。"],["陳委員以信：很早期啊，那你有沒有用過？你沒打過？"],["邱部長國正：沒有。"],["陳委員以信：你知不知道這一款步槍1分鐘可以打多少子彈？"],["邱部長國正：這個我沒有涉獵，很抱歉。"],["陳委員以信：可以打750發，1秒鐘就可以打12發，這個步槍火力算強吧？"],["邱部長國正：算很強。"],["陳委員以信：我為什麼要問你這個你知道嗎？上個禮拜在美國總統的共和黨初選辯論裡面，幾位總統候選人都談到臺灣問題，當然他們對於美國要協助臺灣自我防衛都有一致的看法，其中也有一位候選人就表示要怎麼樣保護臺灣？他認為美國步槍協會（NRA）應該要到臺灣設分處，而且應該大量提供AR-15的自動步槍給臺灣的每一個人，讓他們用AR-15的步槍來保護自己。","部長，你對於美國總統候選人這樣的一個論點，你身為我們的國防部長，你是什麼樣的立場？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這議題有時候一扯到選舉的話有點敏感，但我對這種問題的看法，基本上一個國家的國防要自己來防衛，不能夠仰賴其他國家，其他國家對我們有所幫助我們當然樂見，但這個幫助未必要像剛剛委員講的，到臺灣來成立一個什麼俱樂部，還提供什麼槍枝。"],["陳委員以信：這不是俱樂部，它的步槍協會其實就是廣發步槍的。"],["邱部長國正：就算是一個步槍協會好了，AR這可能是自動步槍（auto rifle）這一類，我是沒有用過，但是它提供各種武器給我們以後，我們要衡量，加上我們有我們的裝備，你突然間要送裝備來，各位，這就不叫戰力，要靠外援拿到才有的，我不認為它是個戰力。"],["陳委員以信：部長，我對你的回答其實不是很滿意，為什麼？當然你今天要求我們是以國軍正規軍的兵力來面對臺海防衛作戰，但是現在廣發步槍給每一個人，甚至之前還有美國前國安顧問認為要廣設刺針飛彈在每個派出所，必要的時候統統拿出來，全民皆兵。部長，全民皆兵是不是你的國防政策？你要從這個角度來思考啊！並不是說今天拿把槍來、拿個飛彈來，人民可以用，這個不是你們要的，難道你希望全民皆，然後全民用這個？在這種情況之下，甚至依戰爭法、國際法是有所問題的。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，所謂全民皆兵在我的界定就是全民接受過這種訓練以後，他最起碼知道如何自我防衛……"],["陳委員以信：這個當然是全民國防嘛。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["陳委員以信：全民國防跟全民皆兵是不一樣的啦。"],["邱部長國正：全民皆兵是服役，大家統統要當兵，我不做這個解讀。"],["陳委員以信：不是，他現在是每人一把自動步槍，每個人都可以拿了刺針飛彈就開始打。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這是他的一個提議，可能的意見我也聽了很多……"],["陳委員以信：你就說是不是你的國防政策嘛！身為部長，你就說這是不是你的國防政策，臺灣的國防政策該不該如此？"],["邱部長國正：我們沒有這種政策。"],["陳委員以信：不是你的國防政策嘛！"],["邱部長國正：絕對沒有這種政策。"],["陳委員以信：這不是臺灣的國防政策，我就是要你嚴格表達這樣的立場嘛！"],["邱部長國正：是，我現在不知道委員……"],["陳委員以信：美國人關心很多，但是不切實際，全民皆兵每個人拿一把步槍，拿到刺針飛彈就能射，這不是我們臺海防衛作戰的構想，至少國家把這立場講清楚。","我現在要進到下一個問題，我們現在的確在國防整備上面不只全民國防加強，明年國軍的訓練都增加了，不只我們增加了海岸守備旅，我們增加了後備旅。現在我們也看到上面寫說入伍的時候要增加震撼教育，我要問這個震撼教育什麼時候開始、你要怎麼進行？"],["邱部長國正：事實上現在已經在做了，現在4個月役期的他們也在做。"],["陳委員以信：也在做震撼教育嗎？現在也有震撼教育？"],["邱部長國正：有在做。"],["陳委員以信：是多少時間、多少彈藥在那個地方？多震撼？"],["邱部長國正：他在期末入伍完畢之前，每個兵都要經過這個訓練。"],["陳委員以信：現在這個訓練是怎麼樣？多長、彈藥多少、有多震撼、跟以前一不一樣？"],["張次長俊志：跟委員報告，震撼教育等於是一個戰鬥綜合教練的演練，是模擬實戰的狀況，以TNT爆破還有機槍空包彈模擬的狀況。"],["陳委員以信：這個我知道，我在問你量，現在這個彈藥跟過去比是比較少、還是比較多、還是一樣？這中間大概時間要多長、有多震撼嘛？我要問的是這個，你們不是說都規劃好，而且開始進行了嗎？"],["張次長俊志：對，都規劃好，我們今年已經在實施震撼教育了。"],["陳委員以信：細節都不知道就對了？這個震撼教育……"],["張次長俊志：細節我知道，第一個，它沒有實施實彈，是以機槍空包彈、TNT模擬在戰場的情況。"],["陳委員以信：空包彈、TNT多少？長度多長？"],["張次長俊志：長度依照場地我們會有一個標準，它是以障礙物的設置、狀況處置的項次、還有距離來規劃。"],["陳委員以信：你講的都太模糊，我要求你們書面上來跟我們說明這到底是怎麼樣進行。"],["張次長俊志：是，我們會再以圖示的方式跟您報告。"],["陳委員以信：再來，我們現在這種震撼教育非常重要的就是安全，我們不希望在非戰爭時期有任何傷亡。這一種訓練場是在專用的訓練場上面訓練嗎？還是說今天在每個部隊都可以進行？"],["張次長俊志：新訓中心有一個震撼教練場。"],["陳委員以信：現在全國有多少座教練場？"],["張次長俊志：每一個新訓單位都有。"],["陳委員以信：每一個新訓單位都有，總數多少？"],["張次長俊志：一個概略是14座。"],["陳委員以信：14座？"],["張次長俊志：是。"],["陳委員以信：所以他們進行的時候都要在教練場才能進行？"],["張次長俊志：他們進行一定要在教練場，而且有相關防護規定的要求。"],["陳委員以信：好，那我再問，除了這一個新兵的震撼教育，之前應該會有一些安全上面的教育、安全上面的指導吧？這個應該都會做吧？"],["張次長俊志：當然都有，我們在實施之前，幹部也要推演，還要跟測驗的官兵做相關的安全……"],["陳委員以信：部長，你們做一個書面上的說明好不好？"],["張次長俊志：是。"],["陳委員以信：提交本委員會，大家來參考，瞭解你們這個震撼教育新的作法怎麼做，好不好？"],["張次長俊志：好，瞭解。"],["陳委員以信：我是問部長，部長好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這樣好不好，我們圖示做之前我們要做哪些工作，在一張圖上表達清楚，好不好？"],["陳委員以信：請給一個清楚的書面報告跟本委員會說明。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員以信：接著我要再問的是你們明年要成立的部分，我知道你們在陸軍有海岸守備旅，後備指揮部也有後備旅，然後憲兵也有守衛營，明年有多少新增的要編成？就是海岸守備這些，有沒有？"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，步兵的守備旅，它是有11個守備旅，它是按照期程來做，一直到117年，陸續的……"],["陳委員以信：你們要編成幾個？"],["陳參謀長建義：它是同步在進行，不會是一次把一個旅……，我們考量到兵的來源……"],["陳委員以信：你們是11個同時開始編？"],["陳參謀長建義：它都有按照每年……"],["陳委員以信：什麼時候會成軍？明年有沒有成軍的？"],["陳參謀長建義：它編到一定的階段就會先有一定的成軍。"],["陳委員以信：你怎麼都說得模模糊糊，都沒有一個答案？"],["陳參謀長建義：不是，因為這個有一個比較完整和詳細的規劃，如果委員要的話，我們可以做一個書面向您報告。"],["陳委員以信：基本上，這些應該都是能夠在國會殿堂跟大家說明的事情……"],["陳參謀長建義：對。"],["陳委員以信：但聽起來都模模糊糊的，都不知道這到底是怎麼樣。第一個，我也要求這個要跟我們來做說明，好不好？到底你這些編成是怎麼樣？","現在我的最後一個問題，3+1彈性修業方案，我們上個會期、之前有討論過，大學3+1的彈性修業方案，目前有多少人申請？有多少大學配合？"],["鄧司長克雄：目前有5位。"],["陳委員以信：目前只有5位？"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["陳委員以信：3+1彈性修業方案，目前只有5位？"],["鄧司長克雄：是，第一梯次。"],["陳委員以信：我們大費周章辦到現在只有5位？"],["鄧司長克雄：是。"],["陳委員以信：為什麼只有5位？因為這個設計不良，就像我們當初說的，有很多的問題，包括大學很難配合，個人很難配合，是不是這樣子？3+1彈性修業方案，只有5位。"],["鄧司長克雄：跟委員報告，當初教育部在徵詢意願的時候，有46位學生表達有意願，但目前實際提出申請的只有5位，後續可能他們會視他們的需要提出申請。"],["陳委員以信：會申請就會申請，不會申請就不會申請了啦！"],["鄧司長克雄：而且跟委員報告，這個……"],["陳委員以信：我要問你現在問題在哪裡，當初你們提出來的時候，我們就舉出很多問題了，我那時候就提出了，這樣的一個作法，大學修業大量的減少，而且它裡面有必修什麼擋來擋去，學校會不會為了你又加開暑修，這些東西都很麻煩，而且這種東西男性、女性還不一樣，如果大學真的3年可以唸完，乾脆很多人都可以申請3年唸完嘛！又不是只有當兵的人才可以3年唸完。我當時候就舉出很多問題了，現在我們就看到，只有5個來申請，所以我才問你，你們現在開始實際做了，你們碰到的問題在哪裡呢？部長，回答一下吧！"],["邱部長國正：教育部的部分就由教育部來……"],["梁副司長學政：跟委員報告，教育部這邊做個說明，當然我們已經有頒布那個指引了，主要就是希望同學在不影響他畢業時間的情況下進行，就是剛才委員所講的3+1，所以我們會給他更多的修業彈性，比如說他原來在學校……"],["陳委員以信：會有多少學校配合？這很難啦！你現在一下要將4年擠成3年，然後大家為了你要當兵的這幾個人去調學程，哪有那麼簡單！你現在就只有5個人，我看這5個人還不是同一間大學，每個大學大概就一個人，一個人的話，它為了你去調暑期的學分、去調這些的必修、這些的擋修，我說沒有那麼容易啊！我們從一開始的時候就講過了，現在幾個學校在辦？它有辦法為學生調嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：跟委員報告，之前6月頒布指引以後，7月我們就已經跟學校做說明會，讓學校在今年9月15號開始的這個學期，把相關的學則、教務、章程都修正，包括剛才講的，增加學期當中修業的學分數，包括暑修或者是跨校可以來選修等等……"],["陳委員以信：我問你現在這5個學生分布在幾個學校？"],["梁副司長學政：跟委員報告，目前因為是在尊重學生意願的情況下，大概有7個學校、有46個學生來申請……"],["陳委員以信：不是，我們剛剛講只有5個來申請，你的訊息比國防部還要落後，他剛剛就說5個而已。"],["梁副司長學政：46個是報名，有意願……"],["陳委員以信：但是只有5個申請啊！"],["梁副司長學政：剛才國防部說有5個是實際上提出來……"],["陳委員以信：對啊！前面只是表達意願，但是現在只有5個實際提出來，只有這5個人的學校要去為他們調整嘛！"],["梁副司長學政：不是，所有的學校都要事先調整，以因應……"],["陳委員以信：那我問你，現在有多少學校調整？"],["梁副司長學政：現在幾乎大部分的學校都已經做完調整了。"],["陳委員以信：只是把這個命令、準則公布，其他課程都有調整嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：對，都要做相應的調整。"],["陳委員以信：不是都要做，而是都做了嗎？"],["梁副司長學政：學校從這個學期就陸續開始全部都……"],["陳委員以信：來！來！來！我們也要求教育部針對3+1這方案的實際執行提交書面報告來給本委員會看，因為我們當初就質疑過這個問題了，你現在執意要做……"],["主席：教育部副司長要不要上臺？"],["陳委員以信：這位就是了。"],["梁副司長學政：對。"],["陳委員以信：對！這一位就是教育部的官員，所以拜託召委，請他們提出一個書面報告，說明到底這怎麼做、有多少能夠配合，好不好？"],["梁副司長學政：是。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。接下來請賴瑞隆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"聯席會議-10-8-35,19-1","speakers":["廖婉汝","李德維","林昶佐","陳亭妃","陳以信","賴瑞隆","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","吳斯懷","江啟臣","林靜儀","何志偉","劉世芳","羅致政","蔡適應","邱臣遠","陳椒華","陳明文","蔡易餘","馬文君","趙天麟","陳超明"],"page_start":157,"meetingDate":["2023-12-11"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期外交及國防、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長報告「兵役延長配套與整備現況及國防學士班與國軍現行各人才招募管道精\n進作為」，並備質詢；二、審查本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條條文修正草案」\n案；三、審查本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「國防產業發展條例第十條及第十九條條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1130201_00002"}}}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