{"total":{"value":2409,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date_start":"2023-09-13T15:30:00+08:00","date_end":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","total_page":25,"ivods":[{"id":"149081","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149081","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689f32f4774f7720167826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50deed44c4988e0d765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:32:04 - 10:48:40","影片長度":"00:16:36","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":996,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:48:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:32:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時32分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。老柯一向老謀深算、老奸巨猾，同意我們開臨時會，其中必有詐，以為要堵我們的嘴、要公開了，原來都沒有，原來今天來，這一本叫做陳建仁替高端擦脂抹粉報告書，貴為行政院長，自甘墮落成為高端的salesman，開口閉口高端多讚又多讚，臺灣多讚又多讚，臺灣前面很讚，但後面就不行了，3加11的破口不要忘了，死了多少人！高端到現在為止走不出去，國際沒有承認高端，不要忘了，它到現在為止沒有做第三期哦！院長，你不要當了院長還……","請院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，謝謝你請我上來，我還以為你不讓我有講的機會，實際上你講的是完全不正確。"],["賴委員士葆：我先講，你不要講，我沒有讓你講，你先不要講，你尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我會尊重你。"],["賴委員士葆：在這裡是我的時間。院長，原本你上台時，大家覺得你多少有一個學術良心，中研院這麼高的位子、這麼高的學術高度，怎麼會……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講的都是事實。"],["賴委員士葆：我講話你不要插嘴可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["賴委員士葆：請你不要插嘴，尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：那你給我講話的機會，等一下給我講話的機會。"],["賴委員士葆：我讓你講話才講。今天前面的委員「竹篙鬥菜刀」，為什麼今天開這個會？賴清德自己講的，是賴清德先「起鼓」說要公開高端疫苗，到昨天還講要公開，是賴清德要公開，不要忘了，還說什麼政治鬥爭等等之類的，我們是看民調，臺灣人民有70%希望公開，所以才有今天的臨時會。","院長，前面是前言，你不要回答……"],["陳院長建仁：你的前提我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要回答。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼不讓我回答？"],["賴委員士葆：來，我問你，你有沒有講過高端要公開？"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣不公平啦。"],["賴委員士葆：請你尊重我可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，剛才你前提完，你說要給我回答，你沒有給我回答。"],["賴委員士葆：我等一下會給你回答嘛，你聽完，我的題目在這裡啊，剛才是前言啦、前言啦！","陳建仁說高端公開要董事會同意，陳時中嗆你喔！不可以任意公開；薛瑞元也嗆你啊，薛瑞元有上來……"],["陳院長建仁：斷章取義。"],["賴委員士葆：他嗆你啊，他說高端考量中。欸！高端彷彿你們的皇帝，好像是你們的太上皇一樣欸！"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：高端、高端什麼東西，欸！來，這是你講的、你講的，陳建仁1月5號講的……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意，而且這是斷章取義的東西。"],["賴委員士葆：不同意嗎？不同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不同意呀！"],["賴委員士葆：你講的，這報紙寫的！"],["陳院長建仁：剛才委員你講的這個，不要在那邊製造分裂啦，實際上……"],["賴委員士葆：關分裂什麼事？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你針對我的問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我……"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答說，是不是要公開一定要高端同意，是不是？是不是？Yes、No？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我贊成公開。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣就好了、這樣就好了！","高端是行政院的太上皇……"],["陳院長建仁：錯！"],["賴委員士葆：你可以看喔……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才、你剛才……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才回答……你不同意就不同意嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端公司……"],["賴委員士葆：你先不要講！"],["薛部長瑞元：是民營的公司……"],["賴委員士葆：好！剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候，有說我們要信守契約誠信，你講的，有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，當然啊。"],["賴委員士葆：對！好，太好了，那你砍軍公教的年金，為什麼不信守那個契約呢？軍公教是法律耶，是by law、是法耶，law是法耶！你說砍就砍，重新砍光光，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？我可以回答嗎？軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼……軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？為什麼不講誠信？軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：現在高端要講誠信！為什麼你高端講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官的釋憲……"],["賴委員士葆：軍公教不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革，你相信大法官的解釋，還是相信……"],["賴委員士葆：我當然不相信大法官，都是綠油油的一片！"],["陳院長建仁：你不相信大法官？"],["賴委員士葆：當然不相信呀！大法官都是……"],["陳院長建仁：喔，你不相信大法官，那……"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？大法官誰相信呀！你去問一問，大法官誰相信？全部都綠的。"],["陳院長建仁：我也沒有話講了，你不相信大法官的解釋！"],["賴委員士葆：大法官就是蔡英文一個人的意思而已。","來，所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你誤解了臺灣的法律。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，我告訴你，你講說要信守契約只針對高端，軍公教不必信守契約、軍公教不必信守這個承諾……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是依法。"],["賴委員士葆：而且這是法律耶，高端沒有法律。","好，我講給你聽，高端在民國110年5月30號重訊喔！重大訊息發布，它是上櫃公司，第六款仔細看好，我把它放大了，限制條款依採購機關要求，就是衛福部要求不可以公開，所以不是高端不要公開啊！找到、抓到了，是衛福部要求要保密條款……"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它重訊是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：重訊是它單方面公告的。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！這個是……"],["薛部長瑞元：它不用經過衛福部同意再去公開……"],["賴委員士葆：這個是高端的重訊，110年5月30號重訊……"],["薛部長瑞元：它要公告重訊不需經過衛福部。"],["賴委員士葆：它說是你們要求它不可以公開，是你們要求的！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它這樣寫啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：它這樣寫並不需要通過我們的同意，它就可以寫啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有糾正呀、你沒有糾正喔、你沒有糾正喔。"],["薛部長瑞元：我不是它在證券的主管機關。"],["賴委員士葆：它是你太上皇嘛！所以……"],["薛部長瑞元：什麼叫太上皇？現在是民主時代，哪裡有什麼太上皇！"],["賴委員士葆：再來，行政院、衛福部自導自演，你叫它不可以公開，結果現在說公開要它同意，世間有這種事情？自己……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端是民營公司，難道民營的公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：但是它講說……不要忘了，它講、它自己講……"],["薛部長瑞元：你叫全臺灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存？"],["賴委員士葆：它的重訊講，是簽約的機關、採購機關，就是政府……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是它一面之詞，衛福部沒有叫它不可以公開！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你不要用高端的重訊來……"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！重訊，高端也是，奇怪！它公開資料耶，拜託！這是公開資料……"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：金管會主委，來、來、來！"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：黃主委、黃主委，來講一下重訊，黃主委怎麼處理重訊？金管會主委，它的重訊居然是一文不值啊！那金管會主委是幹什麼的？來，黃主委講一下重訊怎麼處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：重訊有櫃買中心公布的相關辦法，根據那些事項，如果有符合規定的話就要公布。"],["賴委員士葆：那它公布是真的假的？你們要不要查核？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為委員剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解它的背景。"],["賴委員士葆：你去瞭解，你可以請回。","居然大家抓到了，不公開的是衛福部啊！不是高端，卻要我們問高端。來！我們再看上一張，為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開？它又沒有要外銷，它只有101個，買主就是衛福部；它去年1到7月份營業額是0，靠著代理韓國的疫苗，它才有收入，清楚的是它要靠你們。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["賴委員士葆：它拜託你們，怎麼你現在靠他們？大家都怕成這樣！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，高端的腸病毒疫苗已經上市。"],["陳院長建仁：對，你完全不懂高端的情況，而且現在，委員，我可以講了嘛，你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣，但是你不要忘掉高端……"],["賴委員士葆：營業額0啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，但是高端，我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要技轉……"],["賴委員士葆：高端的營業額是0，8月份靠你們的流感疫苗，這是事實啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是高端的疫苗，高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了臺灣300萬人的生命，這個你不可以否認。"],["賴委員士葆：走不出去啊！"],["陳院長建仁：因為它的效果就是跟BNT、莫德納一樣好啊！"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那你現在抹煞了這種情形，就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞，才會使得臺灣的產業沒有辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：對不起，陳院長，你不要釋放假訊息，剛才我一聽就很生氣，有哪一位國民黨的委員叫你進口中國疫苗？哪一位講出來！哪一位講出來！"],["陳院長建仁：我等一下給你一系列的東西，有喔。"],["賴委員士葆：講出來！講出來！講出來！現在就講！現在就講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗，哪一位你說！你在這裡釋放假訊息啊！你就是假訊息中心！陳院長，你怎麼可以這樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：我不是，這樣子講……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣喪失學術良心！"],["陳院長建仁：這樣子沒有辦法討論事情。"],["賴委員士葆：當然沒有辦法討論，因為你亂扣帽子。"],["陳院長建仁：要來講的是事實，當時有多少人主張要進口中國……"],["賴委員士葆：國民黨沒有立委說要進口中國疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：使用中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：以前你萬般阻擋BNT、阻擋什麼的，就是為了高端，我們還在這裡表決一個國民黨團的提案，說我們進口全世界……"],["陳院長建仁：包括中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：WHO核准的……"],["陳院長建仁：就是包括中國疫苗啊！你講的就是中國疫苗啊！"],["賴委員士葆：高端就沒有列入。"],["陳院長建仁：世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗，所以你們也是主張中國疫苗啊，因為你要世界衛生組織核准的，就是中國疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選不要中國的疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：所以你是有主張啊！所以你剛才自己講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我哪裡有主張？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！你說進口世界衛生組織核可的疫苗，就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥，所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你這個是假訊息。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼假訊息？世界衛生組織核可的就包括中國疫苗，怎麼會沒有？你告訴我世界衛生組織核可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗，有沒有？有啊！確實是有。"],["賴委員士葆：難道只有中國嗎？沒有其他嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然有，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！有莫德納啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是也有中國的疫苗啊！所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有人主張，你今天釋放假訊息，我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有釋放假訊息，是你自己講的！是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口，那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選，可以不要它嘛！這東西你不要就不要，人家認為BNT只是經過上海……好！你不要給我拖時間。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有拖時間，是你講的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：價差，為什麼明明他要700塊就可以，為什麼你們買881、平均840？這不是圖利就是飯桶！"],["陳院長建仁：這不是飯桶！"],["賴委員士葆：那是圖利。"],["陳院長建仁：你那個700塊是take average，臺灣總共要買3,000萬劑的疫苗，是想說大概要700塊，委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的，AZ疫苗是很便宜的，那個我們剛才講到的中國疫苗，那種很簡單作法的，還有那個高階的疫苗，像高端的是不一樣，所以這需要議價，你700塊錢那個是錯的消息。"],["賴委員士葆：這個錄音檔出來……"],["陳院長建仁：那個是剪接的錄音檔。"],["賴委員士葆：那你去告他嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！已經告了啊！已經被告了啊！現在在司法的調查當中，高端已經去告他們了。"],["賴委員士葆：反正司法院是你們開的嘛！檢調都是你們開的。"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意這一件事情，你這樣講的話，我不同意，檢調怎麼會是行政院開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要轉移焦點。"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講不對嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：我當然講得對啊！怎麼不對？"],["陳院長建仁：你說檢調是我們開的。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是你們開的啊！現在檢調專門在抓藍軍啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我完全、完全反對這樣的講法……"],["賴委員士葆：檢調專門抓藍軍，也沒抓綠軍，綠軍都不抓啊！"],["陳院長建仁：檢調是我們開的？"],["賴委員士葆：綠軍都不抓啊！藍軍拼命抓，就為了選舉的事情拼命介入，司法介選現在進行式啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員不要選舉到了就到處抹黑啦！"],["賴委員士葆：這樣沒有意思啦！我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有意思的是你講的。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天……"],["陳院長建仁：是嘛！你就說檢調怎麼會是我開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你今天是來講的，不是來吵架的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有吵架，是你……"],["賴委員士葆：陳院長一開始就來吵架啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你……"],["賴委員士葆：你來吵架的啊！院長你脾氣好一點啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你就說……"],["賴委員士葆：你真的不是圖利就是飯桶，講到你的痛處，所以你跟我吵架。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我沒有飯桶、我沒有圖利。"],["賴委員士葆：你飯桶或是圖利，就是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以講嗎？我可以講嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：不可以講！衛福部不是圖利就是飯桶。","我們看最後一個，你們兩位都可以走。"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：請走、請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT比那個價格還高啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：也是用700塊去算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：去編預算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走、薛部長請走、請走，請你們兩位都走，院長留下來，我時間不多了，不要浪費我的時間。","你對於廢死的態度是怎麼樣？蔡英文說廢死是普世目標；陳菊說人權會成立廢死的推動工作小組；游院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊！所以民進黨推動廢死在路上，在哪裡？在路上，在路上啊！黨綱把它查一查，有廢死呀！以今天來講，為什麼可以拖28個、38個……"],["蔡部長清祥：37。"],["賴委員士葆：38、37都一樣啦！whatever，很多，為什麼這樣？就是因為你們用一個死刑執行規則，這不是法律啊！這就是你訂的，法務部長訂……"],["蔡部長清祥：那是94年就訂了。"],["賴委員士葆：這個東西不是法律的東西，不是法律，對吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：它是一個規則沒有錯……"],["賴委員士葆：規則不是法律嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是是94年就已經訂了……"],["賴委員士葆：對！"],["蔡部長清祥：要經過救濟，包括再審、非常上訴，還有釋憲。"],["賴委員士葆：所以很簡單，我在這裡公開呼籲，反對廢死的人，大家票投侯友宜與趙少康，這樣子馬上可以把這一條改掉，已經三審定讞死刑了，還要給他再審？還要給他非常上訴？最惡劣的是還要經過憲法法庭，大法官都是蔡英文提名的，老闆要廢死，當然不敢動啊！這個就是我要講的，票投侯康才可能反廢死，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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好來"},{"start":236.107,"end":265.364,"text":"高端是行政院的太上皇你剛才回答你不同意高端公司是民營的公司剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候有說我們要信守契約誠信你講的有沒有那你看軍公教的年輕為什麼不信守那個契約呢"},{"start":273.565,"end":293.569,"text":"我可以回答嗎我可以回答嗎軍公教連改也是依法辦理而且大法官釋憲大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革你相信大法官的解釋還是相信"},{"start":295.409,"end":303.014,"text":"大法官誰相信大法官誰相信大法官就是蔡英文的一個人的意思而已"},{"start":312.1,"end":337.234,"text":"我告訴你你講說要信守契約只針對高端軍公交不必信守契約啊軍公交不必信守這個承諾而且這是法律欸高端沒有法律好我講給你聽高端在民國110年5月30號重訓喔重大訊息發布他是上櫃公司"},{"start":340.153,"end":343.115,"text":"限制條款依採購機關要求就是衛福部要求"},{"start":353.988,"end":376.948,"text":"不可以公開所以不是高端不要公開啊找到捏到衛福部要求衛福部沒有要求他重訓是這樣要求重訓是一單方面公告的我們給衛福部同意叫他公開這個是高端的重訓114年5月30日重訓他說是我們要求他不可以公開"},{"start":382.012,"end":390.161,"text":"是你們要求的我們沒有要求阿他這樣寫阿他這樣寫並不需要我們通過我們的同意他就可以寫阿你沒有就證阿你沒有就證阿"},{"start":393.206,"end":412.996,"text":"我不是他在這個證券的這個主管的機關他是你太上訪嗎?什麼叫太上訪?現在是民主時代哪有什麼太上訪?現在行政院委員部自導自演你叫他不可以公開結果現在說公開要他同意世界的這個事"},{"start":414.096,"end":438.953,"text":"高端是民營公司,難道民營公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎?叫做全台灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存這是他一念之詞,問負部沒有叫他不可以公開"},{"start":439.753,"end":467.055,"text":"委員你不要用高端的重訓來...奇怪 重訓 高端的事奇怪 他公開資料欸拜託這是公開資料錯誤的資料來來來 黃主委黃主委來來講講一下重訓 黃主委怎麼處理重訓金管會主委他的重訓居然是一文不值啊那金管會主委是幹什麼的來來來 黃主委講一下重訓怎麼處理"},{"start":468.24,"end":490.249,"text":"中訓他有歸買中心他的中訓的公佈的辦法根據那些事項如果有符合規定的話就要公佈那他公佈是真的假的你們要不要查核這個就是他當委員您剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解他的背景你去瞭解好不好你瞭解好即便這樣來我在你可以請回就居然"},{"start":501.294,"end":529.368,"text":"來 我們來看喔 下一張上一張我們可以 我們來可以看了可以看為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開為什麼一定不能公開他又沒有要外銷他只有一百零一個買主就是衛務部他去年的一到七月份營業額是零啊靠著"},{"start":536.561,"end":551.034,"text":"報告委員高端的長病毒疫苗已經上市對你完全不懂高端的情況而且現在委員我可以講了吧"},{"start":552.708,"end":576.822,"text":"你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣但是呢你不要忘掉高端我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要進轉但是高端的疫苗確實高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了台灣300萬人的生命"},{"start":580.72,"end":600.087,"text":"這個你不可以否認因為他的效果就是跟BNT跟莫德納一樣好啊那你現在抹煞了這種事情就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞才會使得台灣的產業沒有辦法剛才我在那裡聽我聽得很生氣有哪一位國民黨的委員所叫你進口中國疫苗哪一位講出來"},{"start":601.107,"end":617.85,"text":"哪一位講出來講出來講出來講出來你現在就講 下次講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗哪一位你說你在這裡分放假訊息啊你就是假訊息中心陳院長你怎麼可以這樣子啊這樣子沒有辦法討論事情啊當然沒有辦法討論要來講的是事實當時有多少人主張要進入中國"},{"start":627.032,"end":628.253,"text":"國民黨團提案了說我們進口全世界"},{"start":645.939,"end":669.822,"text":"包括中國的疫苗就是包括中國疫苗啊你講的就是中國疫苗啊世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗所以你們也是主張中國疫苗啊因為你要世界衛生組織核准的就是中國疫苗所以你是有主張啊所以你剛才自己講了有啊"},{"start":670.282,"end":685.469,"text":"你說進口世界衛生組織合格的疫苗就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎你這個是假訊息世界衛生組織合格的就包括中國疫苗"},{"start":686.28,"end":711.249,"text":"怎麼會沒有?你告訴我世界衛生組織可可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗?有沒有?有啊!確實是有!當然有!但是也有中國的疫苗啊!所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛!我沒有發過小訊息!是你自己講的!是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口!"},{"start":712.335,"end":730.239,"text":"那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥你們要可以篩選可以不要它嘛這東西你不要就不要人家認為BNT只是經過上海票好 你不要給我拖時間齁我沒有拖時間是你講的齁假查為什麼明明他說700塊才會殺你啊為什麼2881平均840這不是圖利就是白頭這是崩潰"},{"start":736.232,"end":761.945,"text":"這不是文章你那個700塊是Tag Average台灣當中要買3000萬這個疫苗是想說大概要700塊委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的AZ疫苗是很便宜的那個我們剛才講到的中國的疫苗那種很簡單的做法的還有那個高階的疫苗像高端的是不一樣所以這時需要約價你700塊錢那個是錯的消息"},{"start":765.133,"end":788.195,"text":"這個錄音檔出來那個是剪接的錄音檔那你去告他嘛有啊已經被告啦現在在司法的調查當中高端已經去告他們了這個剪調都是你們開的剪調是我不同意這件事情你這樣講的話我不同意剪調怎麼會是行政院開的你不要轉離焦點你這樣講不對嘛我當然講對啊"},{"start":788.915,"end":790.556,"text":"委員不要選舉到的到處抹黑啦沒有意思的是你講的"},{"start":810.54,"end":819.842,"text":"你真的不是圖利就是飯桶講到你痛楚所以你跟我吵架沒有 我沒有飯桶 我沒有圖利你飯桶或是圖利我可以講嗎不是圖利 不可以講"},{"start":839.174,"end":842.296,"text":"你對發言費時的態度怎麼樣財務委員說費時不是目標陳菊人權會成立費時的推動工作項目"},{"start":867.577,"end":897.092,"text":"有院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊所以民進黨推動廢死在路上在路上在哪裡在路上在路上啊黨綱把它查一查有廢死啊今天來講為什麼可以拖28個38個3738 37都一樣whatever很多為什麼這樣就是因為你們用一個叫死刑執行規則這不是法律啊"},{"start":898.095,"end":903.798,"text":"在這裏公開呼籲大家反對被死的人票投侯友宇張少康"},{"start":921.989,"end":937.584,"text":"這樣子馬上可以把這一條改掉一定三審定院死刑了還要給他再審還要給他非常上訴最惡劣的是還要經過憲法法庭大法官都是採用提名的當然老闆要廢死不堪動"},{"start":949.334,"end":952.518,"text":"休息10分鐘 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10:31:59","影片長度":"00:15:21","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":921,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:31:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:16:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時16分）謝謝主席，本席邀請我們行政院陳院長。"],["主席：院長請。"],["林委員俊憲：衛福部部長及法務部部長。"],["主席：法務部部長請。"],["陳院長建仁：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：院長好。院長，想不到我們到2024年第一次在立法院開會還在討論高端疫苗的事情，高端疫苗這個事情討論了兩年多，光是行政院院長的報告就有3次，你今天第4次來，光是在委員會的專案報告就有16次了，委員會的調閱就有2次，國民黨的召委蔣萬安主持，契約就拿出來看嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員俊憲：有沒有看過？看2遍啦！看過2次。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：蔣萬安主持的會議，所以有什麼樣的弊案就告了63個案，有關司法偵辦，法務部長在這裡，全部都是沒有不法，偵結不起訴嘛！國民黨如果有問題就去告啊！今天為什麼叫你來？所以你要有耐心一點啦！我覺得他們是為了選舉，選舉要輸了，選舉必敗啦！一定會大敗啦！想要用高端案再來轉移焦點，黔驢技窮，沒招了用這種爛招啦！所以你今天解釋得再清楚、你今天說明得再好，他們一樣不會接受，就是要來辱罵你，要給你丟泥巴、抹黑你啦！所以你要忍耐一下啦！"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員俊憲：這是他們的選舉動作啦！國民黨真的有心要查，我剛上台以前看了一下啦，38席的國民黨委員只來23席，還有40%的國民黨立委沒有來，還是我們民進黨幫忙它動員今天才可以成會，真的有心要查就全部來啊！負責任一點啊！國民黨立委連國民黨黨團自己都叫不過來，叫他開會都不來，他們今天要求開這個題目，以為民進黨會把它封殺，選前4天開什麼臨時會？討論一個已經兩年多來，我剛才說的再說一次，行政院長專案報告3次，委員會專案報告16次，委員會調閱2次，司法查了63個案子全部不起訴，選前4天還來開這個會，為什麼？當然為了選舉，它以為民進黨把它否決掉，讓會開不成，然後就說民進黨害怕，民進黨要隱瞞，想不到我們就直球對決嘛！就讓陳建仁院長來講清楚，讓在野黨來質詢，只是你講得再好、你說得再清楚，他們一樣不接受啦！因為你剛才有提到，契約為什麼不能公布？我們好像跟每一個……當時搶購疫苗，全世界都在搶，在契約裡面他們都有要求保密的年限，好啦！高端就算我們現在請它公布，它不公布，如果它董事會開了一樣不公布，5年後我們就有權利公布了，是不是這樣？衛福部部長，是不是這樣子？"],["薛部長瑞元：最慢就是5年。"],["林委員俊憲：5年嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：所以我們現在請它公布，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我們不是只針對高端有保密條款。"],["薛部長瑞元：所有的都有。"],["林委員俊憲：AZ、高端保密幾年？5年。"],["薛部長瑞元：5年。"],["林委員俊憲：我理解這樣對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員俊憲：因為你們以前都報告過了，我都有印象啦！Novavax保密7年，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：7年，對。"],["林委員俊憲：BNT是10年。"],["薛部長瑞元：10年。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員俊憲：莫德納賣我們時要求永遠不能公布。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我們那時候為了搶莫德納，大家說要注射莫德納，所以我們只好也是簽了，我們就永遠不能公布嘛！在立法院委員會調閱的時候，國民黨說有一些東西塗黑，但是最重要的數字後來都有浮現出來，疫苗的單價、疫苗的數量，然後政府花了多少錢，這才是最重要的。還在吵這個事情！不要妄想用高端疫苗案當作是凱旋苑這個剝皮寮的遮羞布，今天浪費行政和立法的資源找你們來這裡，討論過那麼多次還在討論，這有問題就去告嘛！我再請問院長，你剛剛說你要說清楚，查了那麼多，高端的股價異常有沒有人為炒作？政府目前的司法調查狀況怎麼樣？哪一位可以報告？法務部部長可以報告一下嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：在高端的相關案件涉及不法的部分，其實檢調單位曾經有調查，士林地檢署對於食藥署的疫苗審查專家劉醫師，他洩密高端好的研究成果給他的太太施醫師，因此犯了內線交易，經過士林地院判決有期徒刑3個月、緩刑2年，有期徒刑1年6個月、緩刑4年，這部分都已經有所定案，如果真有不法的時候，我們一定查到底，這是絕對不會有所收手的，我們一定會全力以赴，政府是這樣來看待高端的情形。我剛才講過，民間提出63件對於陳時中圖利、瀆職的控訴，臺北地檢署經過調查以後查無不法，全數簽結，所以在這裡我們已經經過這些很嚴謹的事情，而且地檢署就是完全按照這樣的方式，很認真在查緝相關可能被提及的弊案，但是完全都是查無不法，然後完全簽結。這件事情我覺得我完全同意委員，現在才提出來完全就是一個選舉的炒作。不過講到選舉的炒作，我可以講一下嗎？"],["林委員俊憲：可以。"],["陳院長建仁：我們來看看，當COVID-19剛剛開始進入臺灣的時候，我們的在野黨還有境外勢力的協力者怎麼說？他們說我們要跟中國一樣看待，我們一定要封城、我們一定要普篩、我們一定要停班停課、我們一定要停工，好在我們當時的中央流行疫情指揮中心說不是！我們要做好邊境管控、我們要做好疫調、我們要做好居家隔離及居家檢疫，結果我們在2020年365天裡面有兩百五十多天零確診，全世界大為驚艷，而且我們的經濟在那時候是全世界成長率最高的兩個國家之一，美國也是這樣來稱讚，美國的經濟研究所也說臺灣做得最好，死亡率最低而經濟負成長最少，也就是有正成長的一個國家，全世界第一名喔！但到了2021年我們開始在談疫苗的時候，有多少在野黨還有境外勢力的附和者說要買中國的疫苗？中國的疫苗是效價最低的，智利買了中國的疫苗以後，疫情繼續上升，直到打BNT才下來，澳洲跟香港也打了這個疫苗，然後不得不打BNT的疫苗。幸好當時我們是蔡總統贏得2020年的選舉，幸好國會過半，要不的話，我們的防疫特別條例、我們的疫後特別條例要通過，我看還是百般刁難。","我們當時幸好沒有買國藥跟科興，你如果買了以後，像中國一樣連續三年，處處在封城，天天在普篩，然後經濟蕭條，就會隨著中國沉淪。","好，那個時候因為有很多民眾為了一些附和者說AZ有很多副作用，就不敢打預防針，不敢打預防針的結果，臺灣現在有好的疫苗，副作用比較低的高端，欸！他偏偏去抹黑它，讓怕有副作用的人也不打高端，結果呢？臺灣70歲以上的老人家只有七成五打預防針，你看看日本、韓國，還有新加坡，都到九成五以上，所以我們臺灣死亡的人大部分都是沒有打預防針的這些老人家，一個錯誤的建議、一個抹黑、謾罵，使得臺灣有多少老人家因此而死亡，這實在是令我很痛心！可以這樣嗎？可以為了政治利益，使得我們國人不願意去打預防針，可以嗎？現在選舉到了，還要繼續謾罵，現在要鼓勵大家打XBB，這樣子一講，老人家又不去打了，誰要負責任？所以我覺得這一些在野黨實在是……","幸好，你看看，如果不是蔡總統連任，不是國會過半，如果韓國瑜選上了總統，如果其他的在野黨過半的時候，臺灣不會有今天這樣的局面，這是我今天很沉痛地要講，高端疫苗是多好的疫苗，動物實驗、臨床一期、臨床二期都做得那麼成功，在世界一流的雜誌上發表，偏偏要抹黑，讓臺灣的人民不願意去接種，這是副作用最低的，你讓那些怕副作用的老人家不打，於心何忍啊！真的，今天我實在是，大家說我激動，我這樣激動的原因就是，這樣依附中國的作法很可能使得臺灣是很沉淪的，跟著中國一起沉淪。","所以臺灣在這三年，我們的經濟GDP是連續三年最高的，而且我們的外銷也是最高的，所以我們才有很好的歲入歲出盈餘，連續五年超過1,000億，2022年可以到達5,000億，這是全民努力的成果。但是在野黨為了政治利益，可以這樣抹煞我們全民的努力，可以抹煞所有防疫一線的人員，這2,300萬個無名英雄的功績可以這樣抹煞嗎？今天我實在是太難過了！"],["林委員俊憲：院長，你也辛苦了！但是，我們也知道在當時，臺灣防疫成績確實是全世界肯定，光是海外的臺灣人跑回臺灣國內，回來避難的，當時估計就至少100萬。"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！"],["林委員俊憲：有能力的都跑回臺灣來，臺灣那時候二百多天是零確診，是全世界最安全的地方。當時需要注射疫苗的時候，國民黨還強力要求說不可以歧視中國疫苗，你剛有提到嘛！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["林委員俊憲：要求政府要進口中國疫苗來打，中國人自己都不打他們的疫苗啦！有能力的中國人他們還是要打輝瑞啦！他們自己的疫苗他們也不敢打啦！但不管如何，回歸到今天在野黨再來搞這個所謂的高端疫苗什麼契約啦！完全就是為了選舉操作，完全為了要轉移焦點。既然會已經開了，民進黨協助，會才開得成，要求要開會的是國民黨，自己的立委也不來開會，還是民進黨幫它動員，現在會議才開得成，疫苗也不是沒有討論過，我剛剛就提過了，這二年多來開了幾十次會議，當時委員會調閱的時候，立法院衛環委員會的每一個立委都看過契約，他們說有塗黑，塗黑的部分我認為主要就是價格、數量等等那些東西嘛！後來，高端自己也有片面的一些公布。再說，如果真的它們公司拒絕公布，那五年後這個東西大家還是看得到，但是如果契約有限定，就像我們剛提的，AZ、高端說5年，Novavax說7年，BNT要求10年，莫德納要求我們永遠不能公布，那我搞不懂耶！大家可以要求、在野黨可以要求政府去做一個違反契約、違法的事情嗎？就這麼簡單啊，是不是這樣？任何人都有可能執政啦，任何政黨執政，你可以簽一個合約，然後自己違背這個契約，這顯不合理嘛！但是重點資訊也不是沒有討論過，不是這樣嗎？沒關係啦！這是你行政院長的職責，你到立法院來，就把該解釋的解釋、該說明的說明。"],["陳院長建仁：我會。"],["林委員俊憲：但是你講得再好、說明得再清楚，他們還是不會接受，所以院長不要生氣。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我沒有生氣，我是認為臺灣人的生命很重要、健康的保護很重要，在這樣的情況下，我們真的是希望朝野都能夠團結一致，使得臺灣的防疫工作做得越來越好，而不要去抹黑臺灣很難得做出來的好疫苗，使得很多民眾因為它被抹黑的關係而沒辦法使用，導致喪失了很多生命，說老實話，這件事情我到現在是沒辦法接受的。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝，院長，辛苦你了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦，我們一定努力按照委員的意見，在這裡來好好回答問題。"],["林委員俊憲：選舉到了都會發生這些奇奇怪怪的事情。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我也希望全民大家團結一致抗疫。在這裡我還要再呼籲一下，希望大家都能夠去打XBB的COVID-19的預防針，因為中國大陸現在有JN.1的新病毒株出來，針對這個病毒株，XBB的疫苗才會有效，以往打的不會有效果。我也希望大家不要再去抹黑，並且好好地去做好預防接種，才是全民之福。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝院長、謝謝兩位部長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主席。"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不要妄想用高端疫苗案當作是凱旋院這扒皮鳥的遮羞布"},{"start":271.004,"end":299.049,"text":"所以你今天浪費行政和立法的資源照理埋在這裏討論過那麼多次還在討論這有問題是要去告嘛那我在請問院長你剛說你要說清楚的查了那麼多那高端的股價異常有沒有人為炒作那政府調查的目前是否調查狀況怎麼樣跟南威爾可以報告跟王部長可以報告一下嗎好"},{"start":300.106,"end":319.325,"text":"在這個高端的相關的這個案件涉及不法的部分其實檢調單位曾經有調查士林地檢署有這個對於食藥署裡面的疫苗審查專家這個劉醫師他洩密高端的這個好的這個研究成果給他的太太"},{"start":320.526,"end":345.445,"text":"施醫師因此因為犯了內線交易經過士林地院判決有期徒刑三個月緩刑兩年有期徒刑一年六個月緩刑四年這一個部分都已經有所定案所以如果真的有不法的時候我們一定是查到底的這個是絕對不會有所搜索的我們一定會全力以赴"},{"start":346.434,"end":371.745,"text":"所以政府是這樣子的來看看這一個高端的這樣的情形那我剛才講過這個有民間提出了63件對於陳時中的圖利瀆職的這一些控訴在臺北地檢署呢他經過了這個調查以後呢就查無不法的全數簽結所以在這裡我們已經經過了這一些很嚴謹的事情而且"},{"start":372.425,"end":372.585,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":395.157,"end":413.506,"text":"我可以講一下嗎我們來看看當COVID-19剛剛開始進入到台灣的時候我們的在野黨還有境外勢力的這個協力者他怎麼說說我們要跟中國一樣看待我們一定要來這一個封城我們一定要普篩我們一定要停班停課我們一定要停工"},{"start":414.741,"end":425.722,"text":"好在我們當時的中央流行疫情指揮中心說不是我們要做好邊境管控我們要做好疫調我們要做好居家隔離居家檢疫結果呢我們在2020年"},{"start":427.398,"end":445.903,"text":"三百六十五天裡面有兩百五十多天是零確診全世界大為驚豔而且我們的經濟在那個時候是全世界成長率最高的兩個國家之一那美國也是這樣來稱讚美國的經濟研究所也是說台灣做得最好死亡率最低而經濟負成長"},{"start":447.824,"end":447.984,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":465.686,"end":490.162,"text":"致力買了中國的疫苗以後疫情繼續上升直到打BNT才下來澳洲跟香港也打了這個疫苗然後不得不打BNT的疫苗幸好當時我們是蔡總統能夠贏得2020的選舉幸好國會過半要不的話我們的防疫特別條例我們的疫後特別條例要通過我看還是百般刁難"},{"start":491.303,"end":513.174,"text":"那好 那我們當時幸好沒有買國藥跟這個科興喔你如果買了以後 像中國一樣連續三年 處處在封城 天天在補篩然後經濟蕭條 就會隨著中國沉淪那個時候 因為有很多的民眾為了"},{"start":515.094,"end":516.135,"text":"臺灣的70歲以上的老人家"},{"start":535.288,"end":562.656,"text":"只有7成5打預防針你看看日本韓國還有新加坡多到9成5以上所以我們台灣死亡的人大部分都是沒有打預防針的這些老人家一個錯誤的建議一個抹黑謾罵使得台灣有多少老人家因此而死亡這實在令我很痛心欸可以這樣嗎可以為了政治利益使得我們的國人不願意去打預防針"},{"start":564.244,"end":585.811,"text":"可以嗎還現在選舉到了還要繼續來謾罵現在要鼓勵大家來XBB啦這樣子一講老人家又不去打了誰要負責任所以我覺得齁這一些在野黨實在是不是幸好你看看如果不是蔡總統連任不是國會過半如果韓國瑜"},{"start":587.311,"end":612.386,"text":"選上了總統如果其他的在野黨過半的時候台灣不會有今天這樣的局面這是我今天很沉痛的要講高端疫苗是多好的疫苗動物實驗臨床一期臨床二期都做得那麼成功在世界一流的雜誌上發表偏偏要抹黑讓台灣的人民不願意去接種但是副作用最低的你讓那些怕副作用的老人家不打於心何忍啊"},{"start":613.732,"end":623.964,"text":"真的我今天實在是大家說我激動我就是這樣激動的原因就是我這樣子依附到中國去的做法"},{"start":624.878,"end":644.724,"text":"就是很可能使得台灣是很沉淪的跟著中國一起沉淪所以台灣在這幾年3年我們的經濟GDP是連續3年最高的而且我們的這個外銷也是最高的所以我們才有很好的這個稅入稅出盈餘連續5年超過1000億去2022年可以到達5000億這是全民努力的成果"},{"start":653.027,"end":678.492,"text":"但是在野黨為了政治利益可以這樣抹煞我們全民的努力可以抹煞所有防疫一線的人員這2300萬個無名英雄的攻擊可以這樣抹煞嗎今天我實在是太難過了院長你也辛苦啦但是啦我們也知道在當時啦台灣確實防疫成績啦是全世界肯定光是海外的台灣人跑回台灣國內回來避難了"},{"start":681.847,"end":707.201,"text":"當時估計就至少100萬有能力都跑回台灣來台灣那時候200多天是零確診是全世界最安全的地方當時疫苗剛需要注射疫苗的時候國民黨還強力要求說不可以歧視中國疫苗你剛有提到嘛 對不對要求這個政府要進口中國疫苗來打中國人自己都不打他們的疫苗"},{"start":708.274,"end":735.84,"text":"有能力的中國人啊他們都他們要打輝瑞啦他們自己的疫苗他們也不敢打但不管如何啦回歸到今天災黨再來搞這個所謂的高端疫苗啦什麼契約啦完全就是為了選舉操作完全為了要轉移焦點既然會已經開了民進黨協助會才開得成要求要開會的是國民黨"},{"start":738.405,"end":766.637,"text":"自己的立委也不來開會還是民進黨幫他動員現在會議才開得成說疫苗 疫苗也不是沒有討論過我剛就提過啦這兩年多來開了幾次社會議在當時啦 委員會調閱的時候啦立法院委員會的每一個立委都看過契約啦他們說有土匪啦土匪的部分我認為主要就是價格啦 雖然都沒有那些東西嘛"},{"start":767.555,"end":790.175,"text":"後來高端自己也有片面的一些公布那我再說如果他真的他們公司拒絕公布那5年後這個東西大家還是看得到但是如果契約有限定就像我們剛提的AZ高端說5年Normal Vax 7年BND要求10年莫德納要求我們永遠不能公布"},{"start":792.128,"end":820.441,"text":"那我搞不懂耶大家可以要求 災難可以要求政府去做一個違反契約違法的事情嗎就這麼簡單啊 是不是這樣 任何人都有可能執政啊任何政黨執政 你可以簽一個合約 然後你自己違背違背跟這個契約 這顯不合理嘛但是重點資訊啊 也不是沒有討論過"},{"start":822.554,"end":838.17,"text":"那不是這樣所以吼你今天吼沒關係啦這是你行政院的職責啦你到我們立法院來你就把該解釋的解釋該說明的說明我會但是你講的再好說明的再清楚這些東西他們還是不會接受"},{"start":839.345,"end":859.506,"text":"這院長不要收集我不是收集我是覺得台灣人的生命是很重要 健康的保護是很重要那在這樣的一個情況下我們真的是希望我們草野都能夠團結一致使得台灣的防疫工作做得越來越好不要去抹黑台灣的這一個很難得做出來的這個好疫苗"},{"start":860.026,"end":885.743,"text":"然後使得很多的民眾因為他被抹黑的關係沒有辦法使用而喪失了很多的生命這件事情我到現在說老實話我是沒有辦法接受的啦好 謝謝啦 一定辛苦你啦我們一定努力的按照委員的意見在這裡來好好回答問題選舉到了都會發生這些奇奇怪怪的事情我也希望我們全民大家團結一致抗議"},{"start":886.263,"end":910.392,"text":"在這裡我還要再呼籲一下希望大家都能夠去打XBB的COVID-19的預防針因為中國大陸現在有JN1新的病毒株出來這個病毒株這個XBB的疫苗才會有效以往打的不會有效果那我也希望大家不要再去抹黑然後大家好好的去做好這個預防的接種那才是全民之福啦好 謝謝院長 謝謝兩位部長謝謝主席"},{"start":918.957,"end":920.603,"text":"謝謝林委員接下來請大委員述言"}]}},{"id":"149079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68928d87c67ae6d835e826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50db1ce09e5d905ece5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"曾銘宗","委員發言時間":"10:00:24 - 10:16:30","影片長度":"00:16:06","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":966,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:16:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:00:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["曾委員銘宗：（10時）謝謝院長。我要先程序發言，兩點：第一點，院會，我就質詢院長，這是第一點，其他部會首長不能上來；第二點，院長，我剛剛看那個情況，到底誰在質詢誰啊？叫院長答的時候再答，還在反質詢！好不好？院長，這次可能是這一屆你最後一次主持院會，希望展現的是中華民國立法院院長，好不好？","好，謝謝。請院長。"],["主席：好，陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：曾委員好！"],["曾委員銘宗：院長好！其實我看了，你答得不錯了，我問的問題你全部可以答，放心！我不會為難你。","第一個，羅致政委員的不雅影片已經鑑定完成，什麼時候要公布？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這好像跟今天的議題沒有關係耶！不過我可以跟你講，這件事情已經進入了司法調查，我們行政院完全支持，也希望我們檢調單位能夠盡速查明真相。我們尊重……"],["曾委員銘宗：那個影片是不是偽造、變造？"],["陳院長建仁：我們尊重檢調調查的結果。"],["曾委員銘宗：調查結果是不是偽造、變造？院長，什麼時候公布？選後再公布，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會尊重司法獨立。"],["曾委員銘宗：你曉不曉得檢調一體？你不公布就是政府介選，你同不同意？"],["陳院長建仁：不同意！"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意，你的立場……"],["陳院長建仁：我想在檢調的調查過程當中都要很審慎……"],["曾委員銘宗：你的立場我可以理解，你當然不同意啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我，我是覺得很正常。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，第二個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：但是這個是……"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意沒關係，讓2,300萬民眾去做出公斷。","另外，羅致政的另外一個影片，跟總統對話的整個錄音檔外流，到底誰偷錄這個影片？"],["陳院長建仁：這個也正在偵查當中。"],["曾委員銘宗：還在偵查啊！"],["陳院長建仁：當然啦！"],["曾委員銘宗：會不會是羅致政自己錄？就是他們兩個對話啊！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你個人的猜測，我是很懷疑。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，那你認為誰錄？"],["陳院長建仁：我不知道，這就要檢調來偵查……"],["曾委員銘宗：高度懷疑就是羅致政自己錄。"],["陳院長建仁：因為我們都不是偵查的專家，而且更重要的，你剛才講的也是你個人的想法。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你不要等閒視之啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有等閒視之。"],["曾委員銘宗：假設您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄，這有可能啊！一個國會議員跟總統的講話都被錄音，那您跟……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們很慎重而且積極的來進行相關的調查工作，而且要進一步去看看這個錄音帶到底是不是偽造，要做相關的鑑定等等，所以……"],["曾委員銘宗：多久可以出來？"],["陳院長建仁：所以偵查……"],["曾委員銘宗：選後，對不對？也是選後。"],["陳院長建仁：偵查一定是要審慎……"],["曾委員銘宗：當然要審慎啊！"],["陳院長建仁：然後一定要有科學化，這樣才能夠……"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼時候會出來？你……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有辦法替檢調回答這個問題。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這是國安問題耶！一個國會議員跟總統的對話被錄音、被流露出來，或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話，這是國安的問題耶！這涉及到國家安全耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我同意，我同意這是國安的問題，但是……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，國安問題，什麼時候有個結論？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你報告過了，我們最重要的就是要讓檢調以科技、科學的方法，還有很審慎地來看看，有沒有是偽造、變造等等，所以這是不是要時間？委員，我們可以信口開河，隨便講嗎？當然不可以嘛！這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你說誰信口開河？你說誰信口開河？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有啊！我是覺得如果你說今天就要公布……"],["曾委員銘宗：你是說我嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不是說你……"],["曾委員銘宗：我在國會殿堂耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我不是說你信口開河，但是最重要的，很多人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布，這是不可能的事情嘛！因為事情的調查總是要時間……"],["曾委員銘宗：國安的問題耶！"],["陳院長建仁：國安很重要，我們會要求……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，哪一天公布了您跟總統的對話。"],["陳院長建仁：這很重要，我也同意，但是檢調會很審慎地來做相關的調查。"],["曾委員銘宗：審慎到什麼時候？"],["陳院長建仁：而且很迅速……"],["曾委員銘宗：一個禮拜、二個禮拜、選後？"],["陳院長建仁：調查的時間，我們會請這一些單位一定要加速辦理。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，反正也問不出什麼名堂。","另外，賴總統候選人12月30號表示，為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮，政府要公布合約。為什麼時間過去了，到現在還不公布？"],["陳院長建仁：這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了，讓我再說明一下，因為當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候有5年保密這一個條款，在政府為簽約人一方的時候，我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定。但是我們曉得賴副總統他希望能夠公開，政府的態度也希望能夠儘早公開，但是因為有簽約的關係，所以我們……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你過去賴清德候選人今天講，明天你就配合、行政院就宣布，為什麼獨獨這件事情你不願意配合？"],["陳院長建仁：因為這裡我們有條約的限制在，政府需要維持政府的誠信，如果政府沒有維持誠信的話，未來我們要跟別人簽約，你想我們會簽約嗎？"],["曾委員銘宗：政府的誠信？院長，您曉不曉得高端公司的往來對象幾乎只有蔡政府，你知不知道？你知不知道它做生意的對象？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得這是你個人的看法。"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼個人看法！你看它的銷售收入啊！它做生意的收入啊！表示你業務不熟啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我熟得很。"],["曾委員銘宗：它99.9%的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府，你只要它，你是它唯一銷售的對象，你叫它公布，它就公布，而且只有董事會通不通過。"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才在報告的時候以及跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚，我們也主張要公開，而且我們也是積極地跟高端來聯繫，希望它能夠儘早來公布我們這一些契約。而且我要跟您報告，所有的契約都是照制式化契約的方式來看，而且大院的調閱小組也看過這一些，只是把某一些地方、重要的關鍵……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你沒有來，都塗掉啦！"],["陳院長建仁：塗掉，對啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：我還要給你看啦！這合約有一條你為什麼不敢公布？合約裡面有一些不公平、不合理啦！民法規定顯失公平的合約是無效的，我念給你聽啦！廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履約者，機關同意不對廠商追償已支付之契約價金。"],["陳院長建仁：那接下來呢？"],["曾委員銘宗：就這樣子啊！它已經做到努力，就不追償價金啦！"],["陳院長建仁：剛才我的報告裡面已經講了，如果可以歸諸於廠商……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這個顯失公平合理啦！院長，我跟你講，我當了一輩子的公務員，我沒看過這種合約。"],["陳院長建仁：你看過吧？"],["曾委員銘宗：沒看過這種合約，顯失公平，難怪你不敢公布啦！難怪你不敢公布啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你這樣講，我不同意。"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意，不同意就……"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的一件事情是……"],["曾委員銘宗：不同意就趕快公布、不同意就趕快公布，這個契約顯失公平。"],["陳院長建仁：剛才我已經講過，如果可歸諸於廠商的，是要處罰的啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這契約顯失公平，這契約無效，顯失公平。"],["陳院長建仁：我們有處罰的就處罰，所以並不是沒有處罰。你這樣講，你是斷章取義啦！"],["曾委員銘宗：沒有啊！就合約啊！"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，我跟你講，我剛才也講過，如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任，它是要受處罰的啊！有啊！有寫在另外一條啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：它自願公布就可以了啦！什麼處罰？你懂不懂啊？"],["陳院長建仁：我懂喔！"],["曾委員銘宗：再請教你，這個疫苗有幾個疑點。"],["陳院長建仁：好，你說。"],["曾委員銘宗：第一個，高端是民間公司，為什麼衛福部還沒有採購，高端公司就已經知道採購價格？它就知道700塊以上。"],["陳院長建仁：那個是錯假消息，那個700塊……"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼假消息？"],["陳院長建仁：是錯假消息。"],["曾委員銘宗：絕對是真消息、真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，不能隨便指定它是假消息，事實證明它是真的。"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假消息，真的是錯假消息，當時是疾管署他們為了要採購疫苗所講的……"],["曾委員銘宗：怎麼會假消息？事後證實是真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的……"],["曾委員銘宗：真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：被貴黨的議員剪接的消息……"],["曾委員銘宗：真消息。"],["陳院長建仁：這是假消息。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，院長，第二點，為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查，高端知道一定會通過？一路綠燈，一路綠燈。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有一定會通過，這也是錯假消息……"],["曾委員銘宗：還錯假，真的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你怎麼會一路通過？我們當時有3家廠商……"],["曾委員銘宗：他說一路開綠燈啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有一路開綠燈。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，你有沒有看過他的錄音帶？一路開綠燈啦！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講嗎？"],["曾委員銘宗：講啊！"],["陳院長建仁：好。在一個疫苗研發的過程當中，一定要通過動物實驗、臨床一期、臨床二期，而且這些東西都是我們國內最好的廠商或是最好的大學在執行，執行的結果都發表在世界上一流的期刊，都顯示出來它有很好的效果，當它的效果出來以後，我們才會簽約。"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，我跟你講，你對資本市場不熟啦！高端的前身叫什麼？高端在證交所或者櫃買中心的紀錄是一家……"],["陳院長建仁：我們要看它試驗的結果，講科學啦！講科學啦！你以科學來講，不管它……"],["曾委員銘宗：我們不要講它惡名昭彰啦，它是有非常重大爭議的公司，你知不知道？它是一家有重大爭議的公司啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講是不公平的……"],["曾委員銘宗：公平啊！你去查紀錄，你去查紀錄！"],["陳院長建仁：不公平啊！好，我們來查紀錄……"],["曾委員銘宗：你要嘛！你要嘛找一家比較正派的公司。"],["陳院長建仁：它的動物實驗很成功，臨床一期很成功，臨床二期很成功，而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好，然後真實世界的研究也和莫德納跟BNT一樣好喔，所以不要抹煞了這些真實的數據……"],["曾委員銘宗：好個鬼啊好，好個鬼啊！院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你講好個鬼就表示你不是專業啊，你講的東西不是正確的。"],["曾委員銘宗：你講你的專業，我講我的專業，你都沒回答我的專業。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你剛才講的都……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，院長，民進黨說高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我聽不清楚，你說？"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我再講一次。民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有3隊，一個是聯亞，一個是國光，還有一個就是高端，而且他們在很嚴格的限制下，要把動物實驗的結果、臨床一期、臨床二期提出來才能夠做，這就是國家隊……"],["曾委員銘宗：好啦！你都承認高端是疫苗國家隊，既然是疫苗國家隊……"],["陳院長建仁：我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發，而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗……"],["曾委員銘宗：既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？院長，針對我的問題答……"],["陳院長建仁：而那個疫苗效價最差的，幸好沒有，幸好沒有採購，所以我們的國家隊是這樣來的。"],["曾委員銘宗：針對我的問題答，針對我的問題答，既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？它既然是疫苗國家隊，它的疫苗賣給哪個國家？中華民國只有唯一啊！它是什麼國家隊啊？只賣給民進黨政府啊！只賣給民進黨政府啦！"],["陳院長建仁：它在巴拉圭取得臨床三期，它在泰國取得臨床三期，它跟世界衛生組織有技術轉移的簽約，而且世界衛生組織也幫它做三期的臨床試驗，你是完全抹煞了科學的證據。"],["曾委員銘宗：我說產品啦！這個國家隊的產品只有賣給中華民國，只有賣給民進黨政府啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你完全抹煞科學證據！"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我沒有抹煞。再給你講、再給你講，假設高端是疫苗國家隊……"],["陳院長建仁：有，你看看，世界衛生組織要花三十幾億去做臨床實驗耶！"],["曾委員銘宗：高端是疫苗國家隊，對不對？那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗也是代理韓國的而已，沒辦法自行生產。號稱疫苗國家隊，你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產，你還代理韓國的耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗，流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單，問題是在這裡……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，好好回答我的問題，它連個流感疫苗都沒辦法生產了，還代理韓國的耶！這什麼國家隊啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我想你的想法，你不要聲東擊西啦……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這是你的專業，你回答我的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我回答你的問題就很簡單，高端的COVID-19疫苗是一個很好的疫苗，全世界都認定的，而且是世界衛生組織來技轉它要給其他的國家使用的，然後世界衛生組織願意來做臨床三期的實驗，在3個國家來做……"],["曾委員銘宗：我還是那個問題，我還是那個問題，你既然是疫苗國家隊，連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，這什麼國家隊啊！"],["陳院長建仁：然後真實世界的結果，肯定它的效果跟BNT還有莫德納是一樣好，比AZ好，而且比科興、比國藥還好，所以你如果要講……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，這什麼國家隊啊？這什麼國家隊啊？連個感冒疫苗都沒辦法生產了，連感冒疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，這什麼國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：如果你要講國家隊，那我跟你講，在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候，在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗……"],["曾委員銘宗：院長，針對我的問題答，既然高端是疫苗國家隊，連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產，還代理韓國的，什麼疫苗國家隊？什麼是疫苗國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：所有的疫苗，全世界在做疫苗供應的時候都會……"],["曾委員銘宗：連流感疫苗都沒辦法做，還代理韓國的，什麼疫苗國家隊？什麼疫苗國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：我們可以做，我們有能力做。"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼疫苗國家隊？"],["陳院長建仁：委員你這樣重複沒有意思嘛！像鸚鵡一樣沒意思。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，高端股價從2020的27元一路炒到2021年5月31日的417塊，後來一路下跌，昨天收盤是68.4元，院長，有多少散戶損失慘重都打電話到辦公室抗議，說蔡政府……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才已經跟……"],["曾委員銘宗：蔡政府……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才已經跟委員講過了，所有疫苗在研發的過程當中……"],["曾委員銘宗：從27塊漲到417……"],["陳院長建仁：新藥研發本來就是……"],["曾委員銘宗：多少散戶受害？院長知不知道？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["曾委員銘宗：可以啊！但這不是你的專業！"],["陳院長建仁：所有新藥的研發的股市都是上上下下，當它臨床實驗成功的時候……"],["曾委員銘宗：上上下下沒有這樣啦！"],["陳院長建仁：有啦！你就看莫德納和BNT就好啦！"],["曾委員銘宗：我是沒時間跟你說內線交易你知道嗎？你剛才……"],["陳院長建仁：內線交易我剛才講了，有內線交易我們已經查了，而且我們已經……"],["曾委員銘宗：查個鬼啦查！"],["陳院長建仁：查了啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：那要等喔！"],["陳院長建仁：我們已經查了，而且已經判刑了。"],["曾委員銘宗：等改朝換代再來查，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝曾委員。","接下來請林委員俊憲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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請院長陳院長請主委好院長好其實我看你答得不錯我問的問題你全部可以答放心我不會為難你"},{"start":56.055,"end":83.39,"text":"第一個羅志正委員的不雅的影片已經鑑定完成什麼事要公布委員這好像跟今天的議題沒有關係不過我可以跟你講這件事情已經進入了司法調查我們行政院完全支持也希望我們檢調單位能夠盡速查明真相這影片是不是偽造變造"},{"start":84.895,"end":104.407,"text":"我們尊重檢調的調查的結果調查結果是不是偽造變造那院長什麼時候公布選後再公布對不對我們會尊重司法獨立司法你想不要檢調一題你不公布就是戰斧借血"},{"start":105.182,"end":128.246,"text":"你同不同意不同意我想在檢調的調查過程當中你的立場我可以理解都要很審慎那你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我啊我是覺得很正常啊但是這個是不同意沒關係讓2300萬民眾去做出公斷好另外盧志政另外一個影片跟總統對話那這個"},{"start":133.151,"end":149.848,"text":"整個錄音檔外流到底誰偷錄這個影片這個也正在偵查當中還在偵查當然啦會不會是羅志正自己錄就是他們兩個對話這是你個人的猜測那你認為誰錄"},{"start":152.611,"end":157.736,"text":"高度懷疑,就是奴製政經度院長,院長你不要等閒視之啊亞瑟您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄了這有可能啊一個國會的議員跟總統的講話都被錄音那您"},{"start":179.514,"end":179.534,"text":"國安問題"},{"start":208.834,"end":208.854,"text":"一個國會議員：總統對話"},{"start":212.267,"end":240.878,"text":"被錄音被流露出來或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話這是國安的問題這涉及到國家安全我同意這是國安的問題但是我跟你報告過了我們最重要的就是要讓檢調來以科學的方法還有很審慎的來看看有沒有是偽造變造等等所以這是不是要時間委員我們可以信口開河隨便講嗎當然不可以嘛"},{"start":241.318,"end":267.833,"text":"這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因我不是說你信口開河但是最重要的很多的人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布這是不可能的事情嘛因為你事情的調查總是要時間國安很重要我們會要求檢"},{"start":270.473,"end":299.466,"text":"這很重要我也同意但是檢調會很審慎的來做相關的調查審慎到什麼時候而且很迅速一個禮拜兩個禮拜選後調查的時間我們會請這些單位一定要來加速的來辦理好反正你問不出你什麼名堂好另外賴總統候選人12月30號表示"},{"start":300.915,"end":310.043,"text":"為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮政府要公布合約為什麼時間過去了到現在還不公布"},{"start":310.896,"end":332.671,"text":"好 這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了讓我再說明一下因為在當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候呢有五年保密的這一個條款那在政府視為簽約人的一方的時候呢我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定那所以 但是政府呢我們曉得"},{"start":333.732,"end":334.113,"text":"院長你過去啊"},{"start":343.41,"end":371.388,"text":"蔡清的候選人今天講明天你就配合 行政院就宣布為什麼堵堵這件事情你不願意配合那因為這裡我們有條約的限制在政府需要維持政府的誠信如果政府沒有維持誠信的話院長你想不想高端公司高端的公司他的往來的對象幾乎只有蔡政府你知不知道知不知道他做生意的對象"},{"start":373.1,"end":396.819,"text":"我覺得這是你個人的看法什麼個人的看法你看他的銷售收入啊他做生意的收入啦沒關係你業務不熟啦我熟得很99.9%他的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府蔡政府他你只要他你他是你唯一"},{"start":403.447,"end":418.58,"text":"我剛才在報告的時候也跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚我們是也主張要公開而且我們也是積極的來跟高端來聯繫希望他能夠盡早來公布"},{"start":419,"end":419.3,"text":"我列給你聽啦"},{"start":449.731,"end":476.71,"text":"廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履歷者機關同意不對廠商追償以致付出企業價金那接下來呢就這樣子喔他已經最大努力就不追償價金啦剛才我的報告裡面已經講了如果可以歸屬於廠商院長我跟你講我當了一輩子的公務員我沒有看過這種合約"},{"start":478.909,"end":495.257,"text":"沒有看過這種合約顯示公平難怪你不敢公布啦你這樣講我不同意那很重要的一件事情是剛才我的剛才我已經講過嘛剛才我已經講過如果可歸屬於廠商的是要處罰的啊我沒有處罰的就處罰所以並不是沒有處罰你這樣講你是斷章取義啦沒有啊這合約啊"},{"start":507.808,"end":527.2,"text":"對阿我跟你講就是說我剛才也講過如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任他是要受處罰的阿有阿有寫在另外一條阿所以所以我覺得阿就業公布就可以了啦什麼處罰阿你懂不懂阿好再請教你阿我懂喔這個疫苗阿我有幾個疑點好你說第一個"},{"start":531.001,"end":549.116,"text":"高端是民間公司為什麼未服務還沒有採購高端公司就已經知道採購價格他就知道要700塊以上欸那個是錯假消息啦那個700塊是錯假消息絕對是真消息"},{"start":550.558,"end":576.221,"text":"委員那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有不能隨便指定他是假消息這是錯假消息真的是錯假消息當時是疾管署他們為了要要採購這個疫苗所講的那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的被對黨的議員剪接的消息這是假消息第二點"},{"start":577.662,"end":601.257,"text":"為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查高端知道一定會通過一路沒有一定會通過一路立登這也是錯假消息錯假真的啊你怎麼會一路通過我們當時有三家廠商他說一路開立登啊你沒看過他錄音帶一路開立登啦好委員我可以講嗎講啊好"},{"start":604.42,"end":606.98,"text":"你對資本市場不熟高端的前身叫什麼"},{"start":630.925,"end":660.288,"text":"高端在證交所或者櫃買中心的紀錄我們要看他實驗的結論講科學啦講科學啦你講科學來講不管他你這樣講是不公平的不公平啊你去查紀錄好我們來查紀錄他的動物實驗很成功動物實驗很成功臨床一期很成功臨床二期很成功而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好"},{"start":660.768,"end":679.283,"text":"然後真實世界的這個研究也和摩德大跟BNT一樣好喔所以不要抹煞了這些真實的數據你現在講你講好的鬼就表示你不是專業啊你講的東西不是正確的啊你都沒回答我的專業沒有你剛才講的你立定黨說"},{"start":681.994,"end":697.993,"text":"你講說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對對不對我聽不清楚你說好再講一次民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對我想當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有三個隊"},{"start":698.894,"end":719.78,"text":"一個就是聯亞 一個就是國光 一個就是高端而且他們在很嚴格的限制下要把動物實驗的結果臨床一期 臨床二期提出來才能夠做那就是國家隊我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗那個疫苗效價最差的 幸好沒有採購喔"},{"start":728.843,"end":731.185,"text":"他疫苗賣給哪個國家他疫苗賣給哪個國家衝華民國自己有唯一啊"},{"start":739.124,"end":758.143,"text":"他是什麼國家隊阿他在邁給民進黨政府阿他在巴拉圭取得臨床三期他在泰國取得臨床三期他跟世界衛生組織有這個技術轉移的這個簽約而且他世界衛生組織也幫他做三期的臨床實驗你完全抹煞了科學的證據你完全抹煞科學證據"},{"start":764.329,"end":786.683,"text":"好 再跟你講疫苗假設公關事疫苗國家對那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗你是代理韓國的疫苗 沒辦法自己生產你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產你還代理韓國的"},{"start":788.527,"end":796.656,"text":"我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單我問提示在這裡代理韓國這什麼國家隊啊"},{"start":804.008,"end":806.949,"text":"我還是那個問題我還是那個問題你既然是疫苗國家隊連"},{"start":832.898,"end":835.124,"text":"都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談 都沒辦法相談"},{"start":838.03,"end":864.705,"text":"這什麼國家隊還好啊這什麼國家隊連個感冒疫苗都要生產啦連感冒疫苗都要生產還帶你韓國的啦如果你要講國家隊那我跟你講在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗真的我問你啦越南都還是疫苗國家隊連流感疫苗都沒辦法生產還帶你韓國的什麼疫苗國家隊什麼是疫苗國家隊"},{"start":865.325,"end":865.625,"text":"高端股價"},{"start":883.683,"end":888.508,"text":"從2020的27元一路炒到20215月31的417塊後來一路下跌昨天收盤是68.4元院長有多少散戶"},{"start":902.093,"end":910.976,"text":"展示慘重打電話到辦公室抗議蔡政府蔡政府蔡政府從20幾塊搞到41728塊都要閃出受害院長你知不知道"},{"start":922.568,"end":924.369,"text":"我們已經查了而且已經判刑了"},{"start":963.527,"end":963.708,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員"}]}},{"id":"149078","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149078","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689529091bfaf1f64a6826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50b8c13e2482b2d9d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"09:44:35 - 10:00:18","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:00:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T09:44:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":235,"blocks":[["邱委員臣遠：（9時44分）謝謝主席，我們邀請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員早。"],["邱委員臣遠：院長早安。今天火氣有點大，稍微冷靜一下。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端……"],["邱委員臣遠：我想今天我們還是針對議題來討論，昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商，當時就針對高端合約是不是要公布，我想還是回到今天的重點。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員臣遠：當時我們協商的結論，我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料，我想這個不過分吧？"],["陳院長建仁：你們昨天才告訴我，那書面資料這麼厚，但是當時也……"],["邱委員臣遠：但是你知道我什麼時候才收到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：以往所有的專案報告都是早上提出來。"],["邱委員臣遠：今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！以往的專案報告都是這樣。"],["邱委員臣遠：依法專案報告，請問一下，這個報告才11頁，你需要到今天早上8點15分？9點就要進行院會的專報……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的資料都需要再三查證……"],["邱委員臣遠：9點就要進行專案報告了，你8點15分才送到委員辦公室，請問一下這樣子是面對立法院、面對民意的態度嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們以往的專案報告都是在當天……"],["邱委員臣遠：院長，我建議你，你如果要繼續這樣子，用這樣的態度，這跟你平常真的不太一樣，如果你要繼續用這樣的態度，我想全體的國人都在看，今天大家對於高端的意見……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是以很審慎的態度……"],["邱委員臣遠：大家的質疑，看的是政府面對民意的態度，你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂，你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎？11頁的報告，整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗，花了國人40億的公帑，打了三百多萬劑，銷毀了……"],["陳院長建仁：保護了三百多萬人的生命。"],["邱委員臣遠：沒有錯，但是相關國際採購的疫苗，今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下，你的EUA，你實際在推動的過程中有這麼多的疑慮，甚至後續股價的異常，這個都還沒有談到，今天光是針對一個採購合約的公開都沒有辦法來完成，整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億，總共一百多萬劑的疫苗，你今天給我11頁的專案報告，你還要拖到早上8點15分才要送到我辦公室，這是對的嗎？這是你面對民意的態度嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：以往專案報告都是這樣。"],["邱委員臣遠：如果你今天繼續這樣下去，我可以告訴你，今天這個專案報告、今天這個臨時會等於是白開了，全體的國人都在看，為什麼？因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開，你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意……"],["陳院長建仁：我們講得很清楚嘛！"],["邱委員臣遠：你們還在溝通、還在要求，但是我必須告訴你，難道政府完全對它沒有約束力嗎？難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎？這個案子不是1天、2天，你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題、商業的問題、保密的問題，我都瞭解，我是海外臺商出身，我非常清楚，但是那是在疫情期間，當時市場上有相對競爭的時候，但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了、已經一年多了，很多的國家也陸續有公開……"],["陳院長建仁：當時的合約是簽5年。"],["邱委員臣遠：而且目前國內的民意……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你沒有給我講話的機會。"],["邱委員臣遠：國內的民意大家是希望公開的……"],["陳院長建仁：當時簽約是5年保密，所以政府要維持政府的誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：5年保密，那這中間不能溝通嗎？為什麼現在有六成的民意希望政黨輪替？我今天不想在這邊講政治，但是我希望你很正視這個問題，我可以告訴你，在政治上的立場，你不公開對你們是比較傷啦！老實說是這樣子啦！可是今天你的態度讓我非常的失望……"],["陳院長建仁：賴副總統說要公開，政府也要公開，但是政府必須要維持誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：我告訴你程序是什麼，你今天包含法務部在105年的函釋就有提到「得標廠商投標單、清單載有投標者投標（履約）內容，乃民眾監督履約之工具，尚非得為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由。」這個部分很清楚啦！其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的，你是可以要求它的啊！法務部已經函釋啦！難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力？今天老實講，難道一間公司用人民的納稅錢來做這個疫苗採購、國產疫苗的發展、國產疫苗的開發，我們都支持，這個是整個國家的戰略物資、國家安全……"],["陳院長建仁：並不是這樣喔！"],["邱委員臣遠：這個我們都同意，但是過程大家可以這樣子嗎？你先告訴我，為什麼沒有辦法要求它公開？你能不能在這邊具體承諾到底什麼時候要公開？"],["陳院長建仁：我講過了嘛！賴副總統主張要公開，我們政府也主張要公開，但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方，需要維持簽約的保密協定，但是已經努力的來跟高端講，請它來公開……"],["邱委員臣遠：它到底不公開的主要原因是什麼？你們溝通的內容、溝通的細節、溝通的結果，你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告？為什麼它不公開，它的理由是什麼？價格不是都已經公開了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它需要經過董事會的同意，它需要召開董事會。"],["邱委員臣遠：841塊一劑嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它需要召開董事會來決定。"],["邱委員臣遠：開個董事會有這麼困難嗎？你們不能積極的要求、積極的來溝通嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那就要問高端。所以我是覺得……"],["邱委員臣遠：所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院、衛福部、高端，大家在互相甩鍋，雙面手法嘛！拖過去嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有要拖，你這樣子是錯假的，這是錯的。"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難？立法院臨時會都可以開了，各黨朝野大家現在……"],["陳院長建仁：在立法院也……"],["邱委員臣遠：大家都可以來開會了，為什麼高端不行？"],["陳院長建仁：在立法院也召開過。"],["邱委員臣遠：為什麼高端不行？為什麼……"],["陳院長建仁：你要給我講話嗎？"],["邱委員臣遠：好。"],["陳院長建仁：立法院也召開了調閱小組的委員會，所有高端的疫苗，大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了，而且監察院也調過這個資料，檢調單位也有這個資料，所以這一件事情……"],["邱委員臣遠：沒錯啊！63案簽結。"],["陳院長建仁：如果需要調查的時候，為了全民的健康，我們當然需要這樣做……"],["邱委員臣遠：63案簽結，但是你們資訊就不公開啊！"],["陳院長建仁：當時我們有保密協定在，政府有負責保密的誠信的態度……"],["邱委員臣遠：你就繼續保密吧，我建議你繼續保密，你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情。"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在已經有在溝通了，我們現在已經溝通，和高端……一起來公開……"],["邱委員臣遠：政治的核心在執行力，成功的人找方法，失敗的人找藉口……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有找藉口，完全沒有找藉口！"],["邱委員臣遠：我想如果你要用這樣的態度來面對民意，院長，我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭，但是你今天這樣子的態度，讓我非常的失望，從今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因，為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室，因為長官說沒有辦法提供，昨天沒有辦法提供。請問這是哪一位長官？"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有說沒有辦法提供。"],["邱委員臣遠：哪一位長官？"],["陳院長建仁：我要跟委員講，我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候，還在準備這些……"],["邱委員臣遠：所以你們還是要互相套招，然後11頁的……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有套招，你這一句話……"],["邱委員臣遠：那我問你，為什麼11頁你要給我搞1天？"],["陳院長建仁：所有的資料都要比對……"],["邱委員臣遠：請問你裡面有什麼資訊內容？"],["陳院長建仁：所以你這樣講是不合理的說法……"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼叫不合邏輯？"],["陳院長建仁：因為裡面所有的資料要一一查證……"],["邱委員臣遠：你今天這樣子面對中華民國立法院最高民意殿堂，你11頁的總共40億的公帑，難道1頁就占了4億元相關的公帑，是這樣子來計算嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當時高端……"],["邱委員臣遠：我告訴你啦，今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦，今天你們所有調閱的小組、所有相關提供的資料都是遮蔽，遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦，相關重要資訊都遮蔽，這要怎麼審查？你告訴我！只要不同意的全部都透過表決把我們封殺掉……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才也提到所有資料在國外公布的時候，重要的訊息……"],["邱委員臣遠：你們民進黨還有臉叫國人讓你們實質過半？實質過半就是實質護航啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，幸好是國會過半啦，如果照當時，當時貴黨就主張不要開發國內的疫苗，要開始……"],["邱委員臣遠：我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗？我在這邊質詢，你去調資料，我每次質詢高端，我第一件事就是說我們支持國產疫苗發展，不要亂扣帽子！"],["陳院長建仁：當時有多少在野黨……"],["邱委員臣遠：不要亂扣帽子！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有，扣帽子是你啊！不是我啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：扣你什麼帽子？你今天這個11頁的報告，你不是早上8點15分才送來嗎？這合理嗎？你給我45分鐘看，我要怎麼質詢？"],["陳院長建仁：是，但是我們所有專案報告，以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的。"],["邱委員臣遠：什麼叫當時送過來？這個案子是今天才出來的嗎？這已經兩年多了，大家都在關心，社會高度關注，11頁的報告，你今天8點15分才送來？"],["陳院長建仁：但是你要求這個報告，是昨天才做決定的。"],["邱委員臣遠：昨天我們朝野協商，民進黨黨團也同意，希望5點，我本來還希望你們中午，昨天5點你們就要送過來，你們沒有送過來。"],["陳院長建仁：你是昨天才決定的，我們昨天忙到晚上11點才完成。"],["邱委員臣遠：我今天早上7點就到辦公室等你們的報告，我還要等到8點15分，我今天院會第一個簽到。"],["陳院長建仁：我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成，所以委員你講的，我沒辦法同意……"],["邱委員臣遠：我可以告訴你，院長，你的報告結論就是不公開……"],["陳院長建仁：要公開。"],["邱委員臣遠：全部以高端董事會的決議為主，只要它不同意，你就沒有辦法公開，你對它完全沒皮條，國人的訴求，你沒有辦法回應，簡單來講就是這樣子，今天給我們的結論就是這樣子，請問一下，我們在這邊質詢，我們這樣有意義嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["邱委員臣遠：法務部105年的函釋就講得很清楚了，政府是可以去要求的，如果你什麼事情都要推給民間，這樣子國人能夠接受嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：政府需要講誠信。"],["邱委員臣遠：而且這個相關資訊，如果今天是在疫情緊繃的期間，它有國際上採購、商業秘密、價格之間的競爭，我們都同意，今天解封已經一年多了，國人有知的權利，而且這件事情是賴清德副總統，也是民進黨總統候選人在總統辯論會上面，他也主張的。"],["陳院長建仁：當時簽約的時候，就是5年的保密協定……"],["邱委員臣遠：今天你是不是也應該回應民意？如果你們今天要用這樣的態度……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["邱委員臣遠：你請說。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你說我們要尊重合約，我們合約當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定、保密條款，所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年保密條款的方式來進行。"],["邱委員臣遠：好，那你就繼續保存5年，然後資料再繼續封存30年！"],["陳院長建仁：但是我剛才講得很清楚……"],["邱委員臣遠：你看看全體國人的感受是怎麼樣，今天高端到最後銷毀這麼多劑，甚至很多國際的認證，到日本還要去補打，這是國人實際的感受，我們不想去污名化，但是這是事實。包含相關的股價，我們一再……"],["陳院長建仁：高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚，真實世界的數據出來，它和BNT、莫德納是一樣好的保護，當時就是因為有很多人在抹黑高端，讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有，然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興、打國藥，結果科興、國藥的免疫原性、它的抗體產生的比例是所有疫苗最低的，比AZ還低。"],["邱委員臣遠：我能理解。"],["陳院長建仁：高端是最高的。"],["邱委員臣遠：涉及國家安全我們都同意……"],["陳院長建仁：所以當時我們去分析打高端以後，打高端的人他的保護作用跟BNT和莫德納是一樣……"],["邱委員臣遠：國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資，本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資，我們都理解，但是……"],["陳院長建仁：但是高端被抹黑以後很多人不敢打高端，害死了很多人。"],["邱委員臣遠：但是高端的整個過程、國人的疑慮、採購的金額、相關合約的內容、甚至股價的異常波動，中間有沒有委託中資公司「丘以思」來做三期臨床試驗，這些都是國人需要瞭解的，但是幾次的報告沒有辦法講清楚、說明白。"],["陳院長建仁：臨床試驗的結果早就出來了……"],["邱委員臣遠：到了昨天協商要開臨時會，你的報告還要早上8點15分才送到立法院！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你這講得都不對。"],["邱委員臣遠：我又不對，你都對！"],["陳院長建仁：我就講，動物實驗的結果早就發表了啊！臨床一期的結果早就出來了啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：我現在在告訴你高端合約的解密，相關的效力，我們沒有在跟你質疑效力，我從頭到尾都沒有跟你質疑疫苗效力……"],["陳院長建仁：真實世界的效果也出來了。"],["邱委員臣遠：你不要再聲東擊西了，院長！不要這樣子，好不好？我現在是跟你講今天專報的內容，相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布？什麼時候高端能夠取得共識？什麼時候能讓國人有知的權利？這才是今天專報的重點，我沒在跟你討論疫苗的效力，我拜託一下！"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講過了，我們正在請高端儘快地公布啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：你剛剛還在糾正台上的委員。"],["陳院長建仁：我們希望高端能很好地回應啊！"],["邱委員臣遠：我現在聽起來，合約是不可能公布了啦！至少在今天沒有結論啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你的講法。"],["邱委員臣遠：至少在今天沒有結論，我這樣聽起來啦！我希望你們繼續去要求，這個法務部的函釋，我希望你們仔細去看，你們用這個函釋是不是能對高端公司進行相關的要求。","另外一個部分，我們還是一再強調，我們會支持政府的本土生技產業，但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性，趁機哄抬股價，我們不希望有人在這中間牟取不當的利益。高端股價的問題，從30塊附近漲起，在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍，2021年5月更衝上了417元，尤其政府高層多次不避嫌，在高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心，甚至帶頭打高端，我想這個部分是不是能請院長解釋相關的股價異常波動上，有沒有相關的問題。"],["陳院長建仁：委員是專家，我跟你講，全世界……"],["邱委員臣遠：不會啦！你比較專家啦！"],["陳院長建仁：如果你承認我是專家，全世界在發展疫苗的人，在發展的過程中，當動物實驗成功、臨床實驗成功的時候，那個股價就會一直上升，但是實驗失敗的時候就會下降，所以那個上升……"],["邱委員臣遠：但那個比例是正常的嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：你看莫德納、你看BNT的股價變化是怎麼樣，所以藥物的開發，本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程，成功的時候它的股價就會一直上升，這個是很正常的事情，所以不要懷疑它。那你如果講說，有沒有什麼涉及不法，實際上我們檢調單位已經查過，士林地檢署對於有一位專家審查委員洩密高端實驗好的結果給他的太太，結果被判刑了3個月，緩刑兩年，我想你也很清楚嘛！所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情，都有在查證、都有在偵辦，所以這一件事情很重要，而且在立法院衛環委員會實際上他們也有調閱相關的資料，你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明，也提供說明，開了這麼多的次會議、調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議，也看了合約，結果當時怎麼會沒有意見？現在選舉到了，又再來吵這個事情。"],["邱委員臣遠：意見都很多啦！只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉。沒關係，院長，我剩下30秒，我在這邊還是誠懇地呼籲，我希望你們用謙卑的態度來面對民意。"],["陳院長建仁：我們一向謙卑。"],["邱委員臣遠：民意既然想要公開，希望國人有知的權利，包括賴副總統也講了，我希望你們儘速、儘速、愈快愈好。"],["陳院長建仁：我們會愈快愈好。"],["邱委員臣遠：高端的問題，我這邊再提點，包含合約採購內容的公開、中間EUA的審查，甚至有沒有相關股價的異常波動，其實這個是國人相對關心的議題，我希望你們以嚴正的態度面對，謝謝！"],["陳院長建仁：我們一向很慎重在面對。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。","接下來請曾委員銘宗質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請"},{"start":29.13,"end":56.878,"text":"邱院長院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧"},{"start":57.778,"end":69.008,"text":"對 你們昨天才告訴我 那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對 那依法的專案報告請問一下 這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點15 9點就要進行院會的專案報告 9點就要"},{"start":82.459,"end":101.355,"text":"進行專案報告了你8點15才送到委員辦公室請問一下這樣子是面對立法院面對民意的態度嗎我想這個院長我建議你好你如果要繼續這樣子用這樣的態度這跟你平常真的不太一樣如果你要繼續用這樣的態度我想全體的國人都在看"},{"start":101.795,"end":120.112,"text":"今天大家對於高端的意見大家的質疑看的是政府面對民意的態度你面對中華民國最高民意殿堂你今天這樣子的態度是對的嗎11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑"},{"start":122.08,"end":147.667,"text":"消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成"},{"start":148.107,"end":164.41,"text":"整個40億的公帑銷毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你"},{"start":164.89,"end":188.889,"text":"今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們沒有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題"},{"start":190.43,"end":209.001,"text":"我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了很多的國家也陸續的公開而且目前國內的民意國內的民意大家是希望公開"},{"start":210.962,"end":214.604,"text":"所以政府要維持政府的戰線政府也要公開但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到"},{"start":240.92,"end":266.887,"text":"得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求大家法務部已經含釋了難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購"},{"start":268.747,"end":269.088,"text":"我想過了嘛"},{"start":288.042,"end":308.275,"text":"賴副總統主張要公開我們政府也主張要公開但是因為政府是簽約雙方的一方需要維持這個簽約的保密協定但是已經努力的來跟高端講請他來公開他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告"},{"start":309.836,"end":331.588,"text":"為什麼他不公開?他的理由是什麼?價格不是都已經公開了嗎?840億塊一季嗎?他需要召開董事會來決定開個董事會有這麼困難嗎?那是要問高端嗎?要問高端所以我是覺得所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法嘛拖過去嘛沒有要拖"},{"start":332.719,"end":360.869,"text":"什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料"},{"start":362.629,"end":379.568,"text":"這一個檢調單位也有這個資料所以這一件事情是如果有需要調查的時候為了要全民的健康利益我們當然需要要這樣做但是呢當時我們有保密協定在保密協定政府有負責保密的"},{"start":380.809,"end":407,"text":"那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人會怎麼看你們你看國人會怎麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法失敗找藉口我想如果沒有這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼"},{"start":407.933,"end":428.784,"text":"為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室 因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供 請問這是哪一位長官我們沒有說沒有辦法提供 我要跟你們講我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候還在準備所以你們還是要互相套招 然後11月的沒有套招我不是讓我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天"},{"start":430.265,"end":430.465,"text":"當時高端"},{"start":450.806,"end":464.879,"text":"我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我"},{"start":465.64,"end":477.702,"text":"只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會這樣不能讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要放靠報紙"},{"start":496.127,"end":514.546,"text":"當時有多少在野黨不要亂扣帽子扣帽子是你啊扣你什麼帽子你今天11月的這個報告你不是早上8點15分回來送來嗎這合理嗎你給我45分鐘看我要怎麼質詢我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的"},{"start":515.367,"end":517.368,"text":"昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15"},{"start":538.939,"end":563.434,"text":"我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批調國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎"},{"start":566.069,"end":571.394,"text":"我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的"},{"start":572.13,"end":598.169,"text":"那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意"},{"start":601.852,"end":620.568,"text":"應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧"},{"start":620.868,"end":623.61,"text":"但是我剛才講得很清楚啊我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講話"},{"start":645.223,"end":656.813,"text":"高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在"},{"start":657.774,"end":676.662,"text":"某黑高端讓很多可以打高端減少副作用的人沒有然後偏偏來鼓勵說要打科興打國藥結果那個科興國藥我跟委員報告科興國藥的免疫原性它的抗體產生的比例是所有的疫苗最低的"},{"start":677.642,"end":685.727,"text":"我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個的過程國人的餘率採購的金額相關合約的內容"},{"start":698.053,"end":698.834,"text":"委員你這講的都不對的啦"},{"start":718.348,"end":733.564,"text":"我又不對 你都對好 我講啊 動物食業的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要在這個聲東擊西啦 院長"},{"start":736.087,"end":758.6,"text":"不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有自的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦"},{"start":764.623,"end":786.749,"text":"至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價"},{"start":787.429,"end":801.599,"text":"我們不希望有人在這中間謀取不斷的利益那高端股價的問題從他30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌"},{"start":802.72,"end":829.122,"text":"高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好 委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦 你比較專家啦好 那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功 臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升"},{"start":829.922,"end":857.133,"text":"但是呢如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於"},{"start":858.894,"end":873.711,"text":"有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要緩刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那"},{"start":876.4,"end":905.479,"text":"所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們"},{"start":906.4,"end":907.58,"text":"我希望你們嚴正的態度面對"},{"start":943.231,"end":943.253,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"149077","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149077","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee6890dde41a0df76e5d5826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50c8de6a88177388315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱顯智","委員發言時間":"09:28:42 - 09:44:30","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-01-09T09:44:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T09:28:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":44,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（9時29分）謝謝院長，我想請陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員好。"],["邱委員顯智：院長早。院長，剛剛聽您的報告，其中有一段針對高端疫苗合約公開的部分，你有提到事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對臺灣，而是全球各國皆然，還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Novavax都有設這個保密條款，因為這個保密條款，所以沒辦法公開。","現在我想給你看一下，這張投影片的左上角有4個國家的語言，還有一個國徽，請問院長，你知道這是哪個國家嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：瑞士。"],["邱委員顯智：因為院長是公衛專家，應該非常清楚。這就是瑞士採購疫苗的所有合約，像這個例子是莫德納，通通都放在這一個網站上，一目瞭然，一點下去就看到。不只是瑞士，院長，你其實非常清楚，像歐盟採購疫苗的合約，不管是哪個廠牌的，全部也都公開在網路上，有的連MOU，然後也不只是一份合約，從MOU到正式簽約，到後續的修正，乃至於價錢，像AZ2.9歐元也放在這個上面。所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程、法律文件，院長，這絕對不是像你們在第八頁寫的這樣，感覺好像全世界都沒有公開採購疫苗，現在是一個網路的時代、全球化的時代，全世界的國家，當然大部分的國家有可能沒有公開。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["邱委員顯智：但是像瑞士、像歐盟……"],["陳院長建仁：大部分國家沒有公開，你講對啦。"],["邱委員顯智：不是啦，院長，你在比的那一些國家，難道我們要跟那一些不公開的國家比嗎？那些不公開的國家，問題多嚴重？"],["陳院長建仁：絕大部分的國家都不公開。"],["邱委員顯智：那我必須要講，你看不管是瑞士也好，不管是歐盟也好，乃至於這些歐洲的國家，從頭到尾，從簽約MOU到後面的修正文件，乃至契約，都是大大方方公開。我真的必須要問，到底有什麼理由我們的政府做不到？高端疫苗採購的合約為什麼到現在還看不到？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：我想很簡單，我剛才已經說明得很清楚，世界上絕大部分的國家，不是你講的這一、兩個少數的國家，在採購疫苗的時候都有簽訂所謂的保密條款，那在保密條款之下，也不是只有我們對高端是這樣，對於AZ、莫德納、Novavax跟BNT都是這樣簽的啦。你看看在你剛才講的這些其他國家，也都是這樣簽訂，最主要的一個理由就是牽涉到商業機密，而且也牽涉到價格，你也曉得疫苗的價格會因為它供應的時間是在什麼時段，還有供應的量、供應的情形有所不同。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我必須要講……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們就有簽訂了保密的協定。"],["邱委員顯智：這個高端的價格早就已經講出來了嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：這是高端自己講出來的。"],["邱委員顯智：對啊！所以其他契約的必要之點有哪一些是要保密的？好啦！如果你認為要保密的，你可以去做一些處理嘛！譬如你在這邊故意寫完整合約不公開，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員顯智：好啊！那你完整合約不公開，你可以公開你認為有保密需要的啊！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！"],["邱委員顯智：去做一些處理啊！那你現在不是，現在是除了這個很基礎的契約大家看不到之外，即便你認為有保密，你把它處理掉……"],["陳院長建仁：我們政府的立場……"],["邱委員顯智：那從前面到後面的文件通通都沒有，而且院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們政府的立場也是要公開，也是主張公開，但是需要雙方同意。"],["邱委員顯智：賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了，人民有知的權利啊！"],["陳院長建仁：是，我同意。"],["邱委員顯智：這個疫苗採購不是一塊、兩塊欸！不是一萬塊、兩萬塊欸！"],["陳院長建仁：沒錯。"],["邱委員顯智：是這麼貴的一個東西，那人民的血汗錢，人民有知的權利，應該要公開高端疫苗的合約嘛！如果你認為有哪一個部分是非得要保密不可的，你也可以去做相應的處理，就像其他的國家一樣嘛！其他的國家公開的時候，他也去做處理啦！那沒有道理……"],["陳院長建仁：其他的公開要處理，你答對了。"],["邱委員顯智：到現在已經這麼久了，還連一個影子都看不到！"],["陳院長建仁：因為在保密協定的條款規範之下，我們如果要公開需要得到雙方的同意，我們也主張應該要公開，但是這個公開需要雙方的合議，所以我們政府也努力來跟高端公司協商，希望它也能夠來公布。"],["邱委員顯智：那你要跟高端協商嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["邱委員顯智：那請教院長，高端的合約到底何時會公開，請院長給我一個具體的時間點。"],["陳院長建仁：高端何時會公開的話，高端它有內部的……"],["邱委員顯智：何時啦？"],["陳院長建仁：內部的程序。這個內部的程序，他們也許需要經過董事會的討論，所以我們沒有……"],["邱委員顯智：董事會什麼時候要開？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：需要看對方來確定。那最重要的一件事情，我想可能委員你也很清楚，在雙方如果能夠達到協議的這個情況下，我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好。"],["邱委員顯智：院長完全無法理解啦！我就講了，你可以去比較看看，其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情，竟然……"],["陳院長建仁：大部分的……"],["邱委員顯智：到現在已經過了這麼久……"],["陳院長建仁：只有少數的國家這樣做。"],["邱委員顯智：還在董事會。那它有開董事會嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：他們……"],["邱委員顯智：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：現在我們發函給他們……"],["邱委員顯智：你們有去看嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：請他們能夠給我們最好的答復。"],["邱委員顯智：所以也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛？今天院長的答復就是說也沒辦法有一個時間點，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：這個需要雙方得到同意。"],["邱委員顯智：那如果是不同意的話，不就永遠都不公開？"],["陳院長建仁：如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候，那我們當然就需要再考慮說它不公開的時候……"],["邱委員顯智：那你要怎麼辦？"],["陳院長建仁：對，在這個情況……"],["邱委員顯智：對啊！"],["陳院長建仁：很重要的，你剛才講的相關部分要遮蔽等等，這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候，我們就有這樣的資訊公開……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，這樣講真的……"],["陳院長建仁：而且大院已經開過二十幾次會議……"],["邱委員顯智：臺灣社會真的聽不下去。"],["陳院長建仁：也都看過這個資料了。"],["邱委員顯智：真的聽不下去啦！"],["陳院長建仁：你就是立法院已經開過調閱小組的會議，也看過這些資料，就像你說的就是有遮蔽的部分就遮蔽。已經看過了……"],["邱委員顯智：賴副總統就講了嘛！人民有知的權利啊！對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我也同意，然後我們政府也同意，但是政府需要講求誠信……"],["邱委員顯智：你今天又告訴大家，兩手一攤說要雙方協商、要董事會同意。"],["陳院長建仁：委員你是法律專家，你要一個政府講……"],["邱委員顯智：萬一它董事會不同意的時候……"],["陳院長建仁：做不誠信的事情嗎？"],["邱委員顯智：那你也根本就沒有想要去處理這個問題嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：誠信是最重要的，我們政府簽約的嘛！我剛才已經講過，如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信，未來政府要採購任何的藥物跟疫苗都可能會被拒絕，這個對國人的健康是會有影響的啦！所以你是……"],["邱委員顯智：你講這個大家聽不下去，那其他……"],["陳院長建仁：你是法律專家，你也知道嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：其他一點下去就可以一目瞭然看到契約、合約的國家，難道它不會影響未來的採購嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：但這個一目瞭然是有一些遮蔽的部分啦！"],["邱委員顯智：講得聽不下去耶！"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得，你是律師，你很清楚啦！"],["邱委員顯智：那我來請教你……"],["陳院長建仁：這個契約簽了以後，我們是不是要互相信守、雙方要信守契約？政府要不要維持政府的誠信？當然要啊！"],["邱委員顯智：院長，那我想請教，就是高端的採購有沒有合法地落實決標的公告？它有沒有一個決標公告，你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個當然我們都是依法來辦理啦！"],["邱委員顯智：依法來辦理的話，依照政府採購法第一百零五條第一項第二款，以及這後面相關細則的規定的話，基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告。那我其實非常清楚地跟院長講……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才講過，我們有一個緊急採購的辦法先公布了。"],["邱委員顯智：緊急採……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是按照這個緊急採購的辦法來進行。"],["邱委員顯智：好，但是院長，即便是緊急採購，還是要做決標公告啊！你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛！然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊，而這個資訊包括，現在大家所爭議的，就是很多契約上面的內容……"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：沒有，因為你沒有這個決標公告，我很明確地跟你講，因為你沒有這個決標公告，所以現在問題來了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：你有決標公告？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["邱委員顯智：你有做，你確定嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，我們確定有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：好，沒關係，這個會後我們再來確認。"],["陳院長建仁：所以你這樣講的就不對啦！你就說假消息啊……"],["邱委員顯智：不是，會非常清楚。"],["陳院長建仁：你就用假消息來打擊政府。"],["邱委員顯智：不是假消息，院長，你沒有做……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告……"],["邱委員顯智：你沒有做決標公告。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們遮蔽了價格，我想不要用這一些似是而非的理由來打擊政府為了要保障人民健康所做的這一些決標的公告。我們已經有公告，而且有遮蔽價格……"],["邱委員顯智：院長，我現在在告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我剛才講的就是很對的……"],["邱委員顯智：你現在就是因為沒有做決標公告……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告。"],["邱委員顯智：你才會衍生出後面這些問題。"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告。你現在還在講錯的訊息啊！"],["邱委員顯智：不是錯的訊息。"],["陳院長建仁：是錯的訊息。"],["邱委員顯智：因為你認為是緊急採購……"],["陳院長建仁：我想你們要講務實、你們講理性、你們講科學……"],["邱委員顯智：所以不需要決標公告嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：你完全反科學、不理性，也不務實啊！"],["邱委員顯智：沒有，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你講就有，我說有，你說沒有。"],["邱委員顯智：不需要、不需要，好，我們不需要再爭這個。"],["陳院長建仁：不，那你講的就不對嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：沒關係，這個是大家、社會可以來檢驗的，有或沒有……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！我講的就是這樣。"],["邱委員顯智：我們不需要在這裡爭，那我是要……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你……有公告，你承認有公告嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：那我現在告訴你……"],["陳院長建仁：你承認有公告了，對不對？"],["邱委員顯智：你沒有公告啊！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊，有公告啊！"],["邱委員顯智：衛福部沒有公告啊！"],["陳院長建仁：有公告啊！你這樣就是在講假的、錯的消息啊！"],["邱委員顯智：你就是認為有決標、你認為說是緊急採購嘛！對不對？然後……"],["陳院長建仁：有公告、有決標公告！"],["邱委員顯智：緊急採購的話……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告！"],["邱委員顯智：即便是緊急採購，還是要去做決標公告，才能……"],["陳院長建仁：有決標公告！我已經講3次了！"],["邱委員顯智：沒關係，這個可以之後再……","我們這個是有一個客觀事實的嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對嘛！你就「講白賊」啊！"],["邱委員顯智：好，院長，我想請教，2個月前院長在國會指示說，宏泰公益信託針對中嘉交易案的部分是由做處分的NCC去做監管，而不是教育部；院長也在國會指示應該由NCC負責去做調查，釐清宏泰公益信託捐款的爭議。但是2個月過去了，院長，NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關單位去做調查，然後也沒有去向教育部調閱資料。另外，宏泰當初承諾說要5年15億做公益，現在時間已經快到了，才捐了7億，除非今年要捐8億，不然承諾就要跳票了。面對NCC擺爛、不作為，甚至公然違抗院長的命令，請問院長現在要如何處理？"],["陳院長建仁：我想NCC沒有擺爛，他們也積極在努力。今天我們的議題是在講高端合約，如果委員對宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的話，會後我會提供書面的報告。你今天離題嘛！"],["邱委員顯智：不是啊！監督政府各項施政本來就是我的職責，你之前已經有指示……"],["陳院長建仁：但是今天我們的專題報告是有關高端的合約……"],["邱委員顯智：什麼叫做沒有擺爛！"],["陳院長建仁：那你現在要談NCC的部分，我說NCC沒有擺爛，我已經……"],["邱委員顯智：不是啦！院長，我自己是認為不應該這樣護航財團啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有護航財團！"],["邱委員顯智：這很清楚嘛！它就要跳票了嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有護航財團！"],["邱委員顯智：如果沒有護航財團的話，這不是擺爛？"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有擺爛！"],["邱委員顯智：他們根本沒有去調教育部的資料啊！"],["陳院長建仁：也沒有擺爛……"],["邱委員顯智：他們也沒有約詢相關單位去處理……"],["陳院長建仁：完全沒有擺爛！這是你片面的講法！"],["邱委員顯智：你也跟它命令了啊！"],["陳院長建仁：這是你片面的講法！而今天的議題就是高端合約！"],["邱委員顯智：那我想問你嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：今天來講這個東西，你要資料，我後面補充給你。"],["邱委員顯智：我想問你，宏泰公益信託等於是騙了這一個行政處分嘛，那個行政處分是有附款的，這是幾百億的交易案，也承諾5年要捐15億，可是現在已經要跳票了，你做何處理啊？"],["陳院長建仁：我想通傳會現在正在做各式各樣的調查，有關爭議經濟部也提供了股權資料來進行分析，如果有違反相關負擔的情形，我們當然是依法處理，現在正在……"],["邱委員顯智：怎麼依法處理？他們根本連去調閱教育部的資料都沒有！"],["陳院長建仁：現在正在這個爭議當中……"],["邱委員顯智：2個月過去了！院長，你已經指示了，他們完全沒有處理啊！這不是護航財團，什麼是護航財團？"],["陳院長建仁：我想處理事情都有一定的程序、一定的過程，然後呢……"],["邱委員顯智：好，院長，我再舉一個例子，揭弊者保護法上個會期還有送進來……"],["陳院長建仁：這也不是今天的議題。"],["邱委員顯智：這個會期連送進來都沒有，在你主持的行政院，連送進來都沒有！永豐金這是很明顯的……"],["陳院長建仁：這也不是今天的議題啊！"],["邱委員顯智：它根本就是在阻撓這個揭弊者保護法！甚至對行政院、對時力黨團、對許多力推揭弊者保護法的人進行監控！院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們沒有進行監控。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，揭弊者保護法要再度跳票了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，這一件事情我們已經在行政院召開了4次審查會，而且這方面我們法務部已經有在進行，所以我們並沒有跳票。"],["邱委員顯智：好，那什麼時候要送進來？只講送進來就好。不要再說社會沒有共識了！第9屆就送過了，對不對？光是你主持的行政院，什麼時候要送過來？院長，有一個時間點！"],["陳院長建仁：好，我請法務部長來回答。"],["邱委員顯智：院長，明年520之前有沒有可能送進來？"],["陳院長建仁：明年520？"],["邱委員顯智：是今年520。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，其實揭弊者保護法立法委員也有很多提案……"],["邱委員顯智：部長、院長，不要再去護航財團！"],["蔡部長清祥：如果院會願意排進去的話，我們很願意在會上來提供意見。"],["邱委員顯智：遙遙無期啦，遙遙無期！","院長可不可以承諾今年520……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有遙遙無期。"],["邱委員顯智：今年520之前？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有遙遙無期。只要這個法案我們審查通過、達到共識，一定會提出來。"],["邱委員顯智：第9屆就排過了！"],["陳院長建仁：我答應你一定會提出來。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員。","接下來請邱委員臣遠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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那我想請陳院長陳院長請邱委員好 院長早"},{"start":31.102,"end":57.875,"text":"院長剛剛聽您的報告其中有一段針對這個高端疫苗的合約公開的部分那你有提到說事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對台灣而是全球各國接染然後還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Nomavis都有設這個保密條款那因為這個保密條款所以沒辦法公開"},{"start":58.795,"end":69.56,"text":"那我想給你看一下 院長 這個左上角這個有四個國家的語言 然後有一個國徽那院長你知道這是哪個國家"},{"start":72.148,"end":99.187,"text":"瑞士因為院長是公會專家應該非常清楚那這個就是瑞士把他所有的採購疫苗的合約像這個例子這個是莫德納通通都放在這一個網站上一目了然一點下去就看到那不只是瑞士啊院長你其實非常清楚"},{"start":100.868,"end":124.862,"text":"像歐盟採購的這個疫苗的合約哪怕是哪個廠牌的全部也都公開在網路上包括像說有的是說這個連MOU然後呢這一個不只是一份合約從MOU到正式簽約到後來有可能他還會這個修正"},{"start":126.343,"end":155.498,"text":"那乃至於說你這個介紹像AZ2.9O也放在這個上面所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程的法律文件啊院長這絕對不是像你們在第8頁寫這樣嘛感覺好像是說全世界都沒有公開這個採購疫苗現在是一個網路的時代全球化的時代全世界的國家當然"},{"start":156.533,"end":165.19,"text":"大部份的國家有可能沒有公開但是像瑞士 像歐盟大部份國家沒有公開 你講對齁不是啊 院長"},{"start":166.775,"end":186.895,"text":"你再比的那些國家難道是說我們要跟那些不公開的國家比嗎那個不公開的國家他的問題多嚴重那我必須要講啦你看這個不管是瑞士也好不管是說歐盟也好乃至於這些歐洲的國家那從頭到尾"},{"start":187.892,"end":190.233,"text":"我講很簡單我剛才已經說明很清楚"},{"start":210.458,"end":210.738,"text":"邱顯智"},{"start":233.602,"end":233.902,"text":"這個高端的價格"},{"start":254.787,"end":273.497,"text":"早就已經講出來了嘛這是高端自己講出來的那所以其他的契約的必要支點有哪一些是要保密的好啦 如果你認為說要保密的你可以去做一些處理嘛比如說你在這個地方的時候你在這邊故意寫說完整合約不公開"},{"start":274.377,"end":275.198,"text":"賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":304.119,"end":323.118,"text":"人民有知的權利啊是我同意這個疫苗的採購不是一勾兩勾勒不是一萬勾兩萬勾勒是這麼貴的一個東西那人民的血和錢人民有知的權利應該要公開這個高端的疫苗的合約嘛那如果你認為說"},{"start":325.421,"end":347.24,"text":"有哪一個部分是一個非得要保密不可的那你也可以去做相應的處理就像其他的國家一樣嘛其他的國家公開的時候他也去做處理啦那沒有道理是說到現在還這麼久了還連一個影子都看不到因為在這個保密協定的"},{"start":347.881,"end":349.361,"text":"你要跟高端協商嘛請教院長"},{"start":372.506,"end":388.214,"text":"高端的合約到底何時會公開請院長給我一個具體的時間點高端何時會公開的話這個高端它有內部的程序這個內部的程序呢他們也許需要經過董事會的討論所以我們沒有"},{"start":389.482,"end":414.252,"text":"董事會怎麼都要開來確定那最重要的一件事情我想可能委員你也很清楚在雙方如果能夠達到協議的情況下我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好你可以去比較看看其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情大部分的只有少數的國家這樣做那他有開董事會嗎"},{"start":417.433,"end":443.224,"text":"有嗎?你們有去看嗎?所以沒辦法,也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛今天院長的答覆就是說也沒辦法有一個時間點這個需要雙方得到同意那如果不同意的話不就永遠都不公開那如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候那我們當然就需要再考慮說他不公開的時候呢"},{"start":444.642,"end":462.977,"text":"那你要怎麼辦對 在這個情況這個很重要的在你剛才講的說相關的部分要遮蔽等等這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候我們就有這樣的一個資訊公開而且大院已經開過20幾次的會議也都看過這個資料了你就是"},{"start":467.48,"end":495.283,"text":"昨天他已經開過調閱小組的會議 也看過這些資料就像你說的 就是有遮蔽的部分賴副總統就講了嘛 人民有知的權利啊我也同意 然後我們政府也同意但是政府需要講求誠信委員你是法律專家 你要一個政府做不誠信的事情嗎誠信是最重要的 我們政府簽約的我剛才已經講過 如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信"},{"start":495.868,"end":496.128,"text":"講聽不下去餒"},{"start":514.778,"end":517.599,"text":"這個當然是我們都是按照依法來辦理"},{"start":542.042,"end":558.341,"text":"依法來辦理的話依照政府採購法105條第一項第二款然後以及說這個後面的這個相關的細則的規定的話基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告那"},{"start":559.042,"end":561.065,"text":"但是院長即便是緊急採購還是要做絕標公告"},{"start":574.991,"end":600.987,"text":"你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊那這個資訊包括上面現在大家所爭議的就是說很多契約上面的內容我們有決標公告啦沒有因為你沒有這個決標公告我很明確跟你講因為你沒有這個決標公告所以現在問題來了我們有決標公告你有決標公告是你有做 你確定嗎"},{"start":601.986,"end":617.955,"text":"是 我確定有絕標公告所以你這樣講的就不對啦你就說假消息啊你就用假消息來打擊政府啊有絕標公告但是我們遮蔽了價格我想齁 不要"},{"start":618.835,"end":634.127,"text":"用這一些事事而歸的理由來打擊政府這一個為了要保障人民的健康所做的這一些絕標的公告那我們已經有公告而且有遮蔽價格所以我剛才講的就是可惜了吧有絕標公告有絕標公告"},{"start":639.111,"end":667.605,"text":"你現在還在講錯的訊息啊不是錯的訊息啦是錯的訊息我想你們要講務實你們講理性你們講科學你完全反科學啊不理性啊也不務實啊我跟你講就有我說有你說沒有不需要不需要好我們不需要再講這個啦你講就不對嘛這個是大家社會可以來檢驗的對啊我講的就是這樣啊我們不需要你再講所以你有公告你承認有公告嗎那我現在告訴你說你承認有公告嗎"},{"start":668.425,"end":693.01,"text":"你沒有公告啊 有啊有公告啊 你問你沒有公告啊有公告啊 你看你就要講假的 錯的消息啊你認為說是緊急採購嘛 對不對有公告 有絕標公告 你覺得是緊急採購的話有絕標公告 還是要去做絕標公告有絕標公告 我已經講三次了沒關係 這個可以之後再來我們這個是有一個客觀的事實了嘛對嘛 你就說白菜啦 好啦"},{"start":693.737,"end":719.433,"text":"好 院長 那我想請教兩個月前 院長在國會也有指示說這個紅派公益信託針對這個宗家教育案的部分那是由這個做處分的NCCC做監管而不是教育部那院長也在國會指示說應該NCCC負責去做調查然後釐清紅派公益信託捐款的這個爭議但是呢 兩國會過去了 院長"},{"start":721.534,"end":733.486,"text":"NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關的單位去做調查然後也沒有向教育部去調閱資料那另外宏泰當初的承諾說要5年15億做公益"},{"start":734.957,"end":739.442,"text":"那請問陳院長面對NCC擺爛不作為甚至公然的違抗院長的命令請問院長現在要如何處理"},{"start":752.813,"end":772.827,"text":"我想NCC沒有擺爛NCC也積極在努力那今天我們的議題是在講高端合約如果委員你對於宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的時候我會提供書面的報告本來監督政府各項的施政是我的職責嘛但是今天我們是專題報告是有關"},{"start":775.109,"end":782.535,"text":"高端的合約那你今天要談NCC的部分我說NCC沒有擺爛不應該這樣護航財團我們沒有護航財團我們沒有護航財團也沒有擺爛完全沒有擺爛這是你片面的講法"},{"start":798.627,"end":821.589,"text":"這是你片面的講法而今天的議題就是高端合約今天來講這個東西你要資料我後面補充給你紅帶公益信託那騙了等於是騙了這一個行政處分嘛那行政處分有付款的這是幾百億的交易案那也承諾說4年5年要捐15億嘛那現在已經要跳票了那你做何處理啊"},{"start":822.096,"end":844.65,"text":"我想通常會現在正在做各式各樣的調查有關的爭議那經濟部也提供了股權的資料來進行分析那如果有違反這個相關的負擔的這個情形的話我們當然是依法處理現在是在調查現在在根本他連續調閱教育部的資料連續做兩個月過去院長你已經指示了他完全沒有處理這不是護航財團什麼是護航財團"},{"start":846.271,"end":866.253,"text":"我想處理事情都有一定的程序一定的過程然後我再舉一個例子接避者保護法上個會期還有送進來這個會期連送進來都沒有在你主持的行政院連送進來都沒有永豐金這是很明顯的這也不是今天的議題啊接避者保護法"},{"start":867.915,"end":895.773,"text":"然後甚至對行政院．對實力黨團．對許多力推接避者保護法的人進行監控 院長我們沒有進行監控 接避者保護法要再度跳票了嗎沒有 我們這件事情已經在行政院已經召開了4次審查會而且我們法務部在這方面已經有在進行所以我們並沒有跳票那什麼時候要送進來 只講送進來就好不要再講說社會沒有共識了 第9屆都送過了"},{"start":897.838,"end":919.147,"text":"光是你主持的行政院什麼時候要送過來 院長有一個時間點明年520之前有沒有可能送進來今年520跟委員說明 其實街壁保護法立法委員有很多的提案如果院會願意排進去的話我們很願意在會上提供意見"},{"start":920.523,"end":921.283,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員接下來請邱委員呈言質詢"}]}},{"id":"15363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15363","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609406bd4ab89528cf19b5fa2f296a9353446d53a332764a535cb7644f0548915a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","type":"Full","date":"2024-01-09","start_time":"2024-01-09T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:53:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":26581,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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審查及療效評估的基準以供國內疫苗業者有所依循並且積極輔導其符合規範以確保專案核准之疫苗符合品質、安全還有療效的要求"},{"start":2476.365,"end":2505.743,"text":"前述基準當中規範COVID-19疫苗要取得EUA安全性部分必須要提供疫苗受試者至少達3000人以上的安全性資料此與國際法規單位審查要求是相當一致而療效部分則採用免疫橋接方式來作為審查國內疫苗通過EUA的療效基準亦即國內疫苗臨床所得的綜合抗體效價"},{"start":2506.533,"end":2536.091,"text":"必須要證明不劣於AZ疫苗才能夠取得EUA國際間對於以免疫橋接方式作為取得疫苗緊急使用授權的方式包括了向世界衛生組織在110年5月26日與各國討論以免疫橋接來評估COVID-19疫苗療效的可行性在會議中歐盟、韓國、英國皆表示支持這樣的一個概念"},{"start":2536.738,"end":2559.244,"text":"英國的MHRA和歐盟的EMA也分別在111年的4月14日和111年的6月23日核准了VanEva公司COVID-19疫苗其所採用的療效指標亦為VanEva疫苗和AZ疫苗的綜合抗體免疫橋接評估指標"},{"start":2561.427,"end":2585.559,"text":"韓國的MFDS在111年的6月29日核准SK Bioscience公司COVID-19疫苗GBP510其採用依據意為執行與AZ疫苗免疫原性比較之第三期臨床試驗結果高端公司依據COVID-19疫苗在"},{"start":2586.464,"end":2602.6,"text":"臺灣取得EUA應具備資技術性資料要求檢據了化學製造的管制、動物試驗及臨床試驗者資料在安全性部分根據大署重複劑量毒性試驗及大署生殖與發育毒性試驗"},{"start":2604.355,"end":2632.701,"text":"所獲得之會臨床資料顯示高端新冠肺炎疫苗對於人體並無特殊危害而第一期臨床試驗結果以5個microgram 15個microgram跟25個microgram的劑量分為3組各組15人總計45名20至49歲的健康人顯示安全性的事件發生率在各劑量組都相當大部分"},{"start":2633.203,"end":2660.081,"text":"不良事件都是輕度、中高劑量皆具有耐受性在擴大臨床第二期臨床試驗結果以3295名20歲以上的碩士者來接受至少一劑的15μg高端新冠肺炎疫苗及549名碩士者接受安慰劑之試驗結果不良反應主要為頭痛、頭暈、倦怠、腹瀉、嘔吐"},{"start":2661.84,"end":2685.706,"text":"肌肉痛注射部位疼痛放紅等無重大的安全疑慮在臨床試驗療效分析的結果顯示高端疫苗組和外部對照疫苗組AZ疫苗的原型株活病毒綜合抗體幾何平均效價比值GMTR的95%信賴區間下限為3.4倍大於基準要求的0.67倍"},{"start":2691.82,"end":2720.355,"text":"高端疫苗組的血清反應比例的95%比信賴區間下限為95.5%也大於基準要求的50%經過了衛福部食藥署在110年7月18日召開專家會議審查高端新冠肺炎疫苗專案製造申請案高端公司所提交的疫苗技術性資料及其療效和安全性的數據結果"},{"start":2721.414,"end":2750.422,"text":"已經符合了新冠疫苗專案製造及輸入技術性資料審查基準的要求經過投票表決建議同意依據藥事法第48條之二有條件通過專案製造另要求與專案核准期間需每月提供安全性的監測報告並與核准後一年內檢送疫苗保護效益的報告高端公司"},{"start":2751.623,"end":2769.879,"text":"後續已與巴拉圭執行第三期臨床試驗試驗結果顯示免疫原性由於AZ疫苗與臺灣執行之擴大臨床二期免疫橋接試驗之結論相似因此高端新冠肺炎疫苗已經在"},{"start":2771.775,"end":2786.822,"text":"111年的2月14日取得了巴拉圭緊急使用授權EUA另外也在泰國執行小型的第三期臨床試驗其免疫原性結果亦與前述相同此外"},{"start":2787.369,"end":2808.097,"text":"高端新冠肺炎疫苗在110年的10月27日獲選進入世界衛生組織的團結試驗在哥倫比亞馬利共和國和菲律賓執行第三期的臨床試驗高端公司在111年7月27日檢送疫苗保護的效益報告經過了專家會議的審查建議補充針對"},{"start":2812.998,"end":2840.941,"text":"年長者重症死亡保護力的資訊高端公司已經在10月28日完成補件經過衛福部食藥署111年11月3日召開在此專家會議審議中整高端疫苗保護效益報告及真實世界接種結果實證資料一致決議認同高端新冠肺炎疫苗符合疫苗保護效益"},{"start":2842.257,"end":2869.079,"text":"參考分析18到64歲國人接種各廠牌之疫苗組合之中重症及死亡情形顯示接種高端疫苗的國人相較於接種AZ、BNT、莫德納疫苗及其他分打的組合其對於預防中重症死亡的保護效益相近另外65歲以上的年長者族群亦可觀察到相同的保護效益結果"},{"start":2870.003,"end":2874.904,"text":"基於上述資料可以佐證高端疫苗具有保護效益"},{"start":2876.421,"end":2903.824,"text":"國際上越來越多的疫苗以免疫橋接的方式取得EUA英國的MHRA及歐盟的EMA已分別在111年的4月14日及111年的6月23日核准VanEva公司COVID-19疫苗其所採用之療效評估標準意為VanEva疫苗與AZ疫苗之綜合抗體免疫橋接評估指標"},{"start":2904.554,"end":2932.502,"text":"而韓國的MFDS也在111年的6月29日合準了SK Bioscience公司COVID-19疫苗其所採用依據也是執行與AZ疫苗原性比較之第三期試驗結果疫苗採購過程簡單說明如下COVID-19疫情流行之初為了要取得安全有效的疫苗政府採取了多元外購及國內研發雙軌並行"},{"start":2935.004,"end":2956.763,"text":"衛福部疾管署在109年7月23日公告辦理補助COVID-19疫苗計劃公開徵求廠商來執行疫苗研發並且完成臨床試驗第一期跟第二期的試驗計劃共有4家廠商來申請經過審查的結果4家業者都符合"},{"start":2957.888,"end":2983.066,"text":"補助的資格其中安特羅公司因為置評無法在計劃期程內完成補助條件所以放棄簽約在上述計劃補助國光公司執行到第一期臨床試驗高端公司及聯亞公司執行到第二期的臨床實驗都得到了政府相關的補助的經費"},{"start":2983.973,"end":3003.583,"text":"疫苗採購規劃是以涵蓋我國人口的65%為規劃以每人接種兩劑估計需要有3000萬劑的疫苗以國際投資進行競洽廠商購買及國內自製等多元方式來同時進行疫苗的採購"},{"start":3005.066,"end":3033.032,"text":"由於110年完成採購COVAX、AZ和莫德納疫苗約2000萬劑需要再採購1000萬劑當時部分國際疫苗廠出現了供候遲延的問題截止110年5月貴府部僅取得了約87萬劑的進口AZ疫苗採購國產疫苗更可確實掌握疫苗供候的進度又因為全球疫苗生產"},{"start":3034.431,"end":3061.738,"text":"的原物料短缺為了要避免因等待疫苗研發程序完成藉此無法獲得原物料而喪失及時生產疫苗的時機基於保障國人在最佳利益前提下故比照採購國際疫苗之預購模式向已進入第二臨床試驗期的國內廠商來採購COVID-19的疫苗以預先保有"},{"start":3062.833,"end":3084.603,"text":"所需的疫苗數量110年的2月至5月疾管署跟高端公司進行了採購合約條約檢視及協商及要求廠商使用工程會採購契約的範本110年的3月10日疾管署召開了國內COVID-19疫苗採購討論會邀請廠商討論採購契約帶協商事項並且要求廠商提供"},{"start":3089.864,"end":3119.273,"text":"成本分析等評估資料高端公司在110年的3月11日提供COVID-19疫苗及成本結構說明110年的4月15日由衛福部部長召開國內COVID-19疫苗採購討論會討論付款條件及疫苗是否符合國際標準決議以共同承擔風險概念及達成各里程碑作為付款條件第一期非無條件給予廠商"},{"start":3120.34,"end":3145.237,"text":"倘因規則與廠商製疫苗開發失敗﹑款項應與追回110年5月17日召開行政院COVID-19疫苗採購工作小組第5次的會議會議討論案研議採購高端疫苗生物製劑股份有限公司及聯亞生技股份有限公司COVID-19疫苗案決議依據政府採購法第105條第一項第二款來辦理"},{"start":3148.983,"end":3175.202,"text":"緊急採購向高端公司及聯亞公司預採購各500萬劑的COVID-19疫苗110年5月25日簽報行政院核定5月27日衛福部緊急採購簽准疾管署在5月28日洽購高端公司及聯亞公司預約完成契約簽訂高端疫苗簽約後禮約情形是這樣的"},{"start":3175.982,"end":3188.293,"text":"食藥署在110年的7月30日核發高端疫苗專案製造EUA核准函高端公司在110年的7月30日到111年的3月24日陸續抱怨交貨總計到貨500萬劑疫苗部分交貨延遲罰款疾管署皆依採購契約來辦理除疫區部分計劃每日違約金令"},{"start":3203.155,"end":3228.781,"text":"廠商預期30日以上仍未能予約之罰款為了簡化行政程序已併於111年的3月24日最末次驗收完成時依契約來規定計劃政府無法立即公開疫苗採購合約內容的原因在於每款COVID-19疫苗的採購合約當中均有附帶的保密條款其中"},{"start":3229.724,"end":3243.713,"text":"高端保密期限為5年另外像BNT、莫德納、AZ、NOVAVAX等外國的疫苗的採購合約也都附有保密的條款保密期甚至更長然而考量"},{"start":3245.429,"end":3270.422,"text":"採購公文重要性及後續參考所需要嚴謹的以最長公文保存年限30年定制意即此公文檔案必須保存30年後使得消費而不是外間所傳的封存30年事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對臺灣而是全世界各國皆然"},{"start":3273.26,"end":3290.358,"text":"採購契約有保密條款政府是簽約的一方必須要依照合約來辦理也正與簽約方來溝通建議可以提前公布如同其他契約關係若未經立約雙方同意片面為"},{"start":3291.629,"end":3317.724,"text":"違約公開保密資訊不僅會面臨訴訟賠款而且還將嚴重損害臺灣政府的誠信衝擊國外疫苗大廠未來出售的意願進而影響到未來疫苗藥品相關的採購最終導致國人權益的受損這兩年來有關高端COVID-19疫苗一共63件告發案經過檢察官調查"},{"start":3319.844,"end":3342.428,"text":"均查無不法犯罪情勢．述牽結COVID-19疫苗真實世界的保護力的資料部分為了要評估我國自110年3月起實施的COVID-19疫苗接種政策的成效並作為疫苗政策調整之參考疾管署在111年我國首度爆發Omicron大規模的"},{"start":3343.211,"end":3370.465,"text":"社區流行之後針對我全人口之COVID-19疫苗接種資料與去識別化後以國際通用的大數據的統計分析進行我國真實世界疫苗保護之效益比較研究結果顯示除以在美國的國際抗病毒協會在西雅圖舉辦的環轉路病毒及世紀性感染國際研討會進行協助發表會"},{"start":3372.765,"end":3402.078,"text":"最近也經過國際頂尖的傳染病體和Emerging Infectious Diseases來通知接受刊登上述真實世界分析的結果證實了接種3劑疫苗的中重症及死亡的保護效益較未接種或僅接種1、2劑者為高此外也發現mRNA疫苗包括了BNT跟莫德納以及蛋白質次單元疫苗高端的保護效率"},{"start":3402.509,"end":3431.898,"text":"多較腺病毒載體AZ疫苗具有保護效益並且免疫效力持續時間較長研究結果也發現在全人口資料當中BNT與高端疫苗在預防中重症的保護效益皆達到9成以上也是國際上所度於真實世界的大數據來比較mRNA蛋白質次單元以及腺病毒載體疫苗進行比較"},{"start":3433.011,"end":3446.216,"text":"證實了 mRNA與蛋白質次單元疫苗對Omicron的重症跟死亡是具有保護的效益在COVID-19疫情期間政府推動了各項防疫的措施包括採購COVID-19"},{"start":3447.148,"end":3470.216,"text":"疫苗與審查都是秉持著專業還有以全民健康福祉為優先合約沒有不可告人之事一切都依照相關法規跟國際商業慣例來嚴謹地進行依法行政絕無涉炒股或其他不法民意橋接是國際EUA核准的標準符合科學指引高端疫苗亦經過科學證實"},{"start":3471.786,"end":3472.026,"text":"謝謝陳院長的報告"},{"start":3499.492,"end":3507.319,"text":"現在進行質詢每位委員尋答時間不得逾15分鐘輪到質詢委員如果不在場視為棄權請邱委員現次質詢"},{"start":3540.495,"end":3540.837,"text":"謝謝院長 那我請陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":3551.047,"end":3579.359,"text":"院長早 院長剛剛聽您的報告其中有一段針對這個高端疫苗的合約公開的部分那你有提到說事實上COVID-19疫苗完整合約不公開並非針對台灣而是全球各國接染然後還說包括BNT、莫德納、AZ、Nomavis都有設這個保密條款那因為這個保密條款所以沒辦法公開"},{"start":3580.279,"end":3591.06,"text":"那我想給你看一下 院長 這個左上角這個有四個國家的語言 然後有一個國徽那院長你知道這是哪個國家"},{"start":3593.649,"end":3620.669,"text":"瑞士因為院長是公會專家應該非常清楚那這個就是瑞士把他所有的採購疫苗的合約像這個例子這個是莫德納通通都放在這一個網站上一目了然一點下去就看到那不只是瑞士啊院長你其實非常清楚"},{"start":3622.352,"end":3646.35,"text":"像歐盟採購的這個疫苗的合約哪怕是哪個廠牌的全部也都公開在網路上那包括像說有的是說這個連MOU然後呢這一個不只是一份合約從MOU到正式簽約到後來有可能他還會這個修正"},{"start":3647.831,"end":3676.995,"text":"那乃至於說你這個介紹像AZ2.9O也放在這個上面所以我說這整個疫苗採購的流程的法律文件啊院長這絕對不是像你們在第8頁寫這樣嘛感覺好像是說全世界都沒有公開這個採購疫苗現在是一個網路的時代全球化的時代全世界的國家當然"},{"start":3678.018,"end":3686.674,"text":"大部份的國家有可能沒有公開但是像瑞士 像歐盟大部份國家沒有公開 你講對齁不是啊 院長"},{"start":3688.217,"end":3688.277,"text":"從頭到尾"},{"start":3710.457,"end":3728.025,"text":"從簽約MOU到這個後面修正文件乃至契約都是大方方方公開那到底我真的必須要問到底有什麼理由說我們的政府做不到那到現在高端疫苗採購的合約為什麼我們到現在還看不到 院長"},{"start":3728.817,"end":3728.997,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":3755.087,"end":3755.387,"text":"高端的價格"},{"start":3776.275,"end":3794.982,"text":"早就已經講出來了嘛這是高端自己講出來的那所以其他的契約的必要支點有哪一些是要保密的好啦 如果你認為說要保密的你可以去做一些處理嘛比如說你在這個地方的時候你在這邊故意寫說完整合約不公開"},{"start":3795.862,"end":3796.683,"text":"賴清德副總統已經講得非常清楚了"},{"start":3825.623,"end":3830.687,"text":"人民有知的權利應該要公開高端疫苗合約"},{"start":3846.889,"end":3847.59,"text":"因為在這個保密協定的"},{"start":3869.486,"end":3886.649,"text":"這一個條款規範之下我們如果要公開需要得到雙方的同意那我們也主張政府應該要公開但是這個公開需要雙方的合意所以我們政府也努力來跟高端公司"},{"start":3887.069,"end":3887.749,"text":"高端合約到底何時會公開?"},{"start":3910.967,"end":3935.756,"text":"董事會怎麼做要開來確定那最重要的一件事情我想可能委員你也很清楚在雙方如果能夠達到協議的情況下我們當然是希望他們越早公開越好你可以去比較看看其他的國家放在網站上面這麼清楚的事情大部分的只有少數的國家這樣做那他有開董事會嗎"},{"start":3938.918,"end":3964.557,"text":"有嗎?你們有去看嗎?所以沒辦法,也沒辦法有一個時間點嘛今天院長的答覆就是說,也沒辦法有一個時間點這個需要雙方得到同意那如果不同意的話,不就永遠都不公開?如果有這樣的一個情況發生的時候那我們當然就需要再考慮說他不公開的時候"},{"start":3966.127,"end":3984.461,"text":"那你要怎麼辦對 在這個情況這個很重要的在你剛才講的說相關的部分要遮蔽等等這個在大院的調閱小組調查的時候我們就有這樣的一個資訊公開而且大院已經開過20幾次的會議也都看過這個資料了你就是"},{"start":3988.504,"end":3990.045,"text":"我剛才已經講過如果我們今天因為這樣而毀掉了政府的誠信"},{"start":4017.352,"end":4017.632,"text":"講聽不下去餒"},{"start":4035.799,"end":4039.1,"text":"這個當然是我們都是按照依法來辦理"},{"start":4063.53,"end":4079.826,"text":"依法來辦理的話依照政府採購法105條第一項第二款然後以及說這個後面的這個相關的細則的規定的話基本上應該是要有一個決標的公告那"},{"start":4081.068,"end":4082.21,"text":"但是院長即便是緊急採購還是要做絕標公告"},{"start":4096.495,"end":4122.471,"text":"你要有一個決標公告說你給這個廠商嘛然後這個決標公告上面會有很多的資訊那這個資訊包括上面現在大家所爭議的就是說很多契約上面的內容我們有決標公告啦沒有因為你沒有這個決標公告我很明確跟你講因為你沒有這個決標公告所以現在問題來了我們有決標公告你有決標公告是你有做 你確定嗎"},{"start":4123.47,"end":4139.456,"text":"是 我確定有絕標公告好 沒關係 這個會後我們再來再確認所以你這樣講的就不對啦你就說假消息啊非常清楚你就用假消息來打擊政府啊不是假消息啦 院長有絕標公告但是我們遮蔽了價格我想齁 不要"},{"start":4140.336,"end":4156.251,"text":"用這一些似是而非的理由來打擊政府這一個為了要保障人民的健康所做的這一些絕標的公告那我們已經有公告而且有遮蔽價格所以我剛才講的就是可惜了吧有絕標公告有絕標公告"},{"start":4160.595,"end":4189.113,"text":"你現在還在講錯的訊息啊不是錯的訊息啦是錯的訊息我想你們要講務實你們講理性你們講科學你完全反科學啊不理性啊也不務實啊我跟你講就有我說有你說沒有不需要不需要我們不需要你檢驗啦你講的就不對嘛這個是大家社會可以來檢驗的對啊我講的就是這樣啊我們不需要你檢驗所以你有公告你承認有公告嗎那我現在告訴你說你承認有公告嗎"},{"start":4189.913,"end":4207.018,"text":"你沒有公告啊 有啊有公告啊 你問你沒有公告啊有公告啊 你看你就要講假的 錯的消息啊你認為說是緊急採購嘛 對不對有公告 有絕標公告 有絕標公告還是要去做絕標公告 有絕標公告我已經講三次了沒關係 這個可以之後再來我們這個是有一個客觀的事實了嘛對嘛 你就說白菜啦 好啦"},{"start":4215.219,"end":4240.917,"text":"好 院長 那我想請教兩個月前 院長在國會也有指示說這個宏泰公益信託針對這個宗家交易案的部分那是由這個做處分的NCCC做監管而不是教育部那院長也在國會指示說應該NCCC負責去做調查然後釐清宏泰公益信託捐款的這個爭議但是呢 兩國會過去了 院長"},{"start":4243.018,"end":4263.839,"text":"NCC到現在也沒有約詢相關的單位去做調查然後也沒有向教育部去調閱資料那另外宏泰當初的承諾說要5年15億做公益哇 現在已經要搞了才捐了7億那除非今年要捐8億不然就要承諾跳票了"},{"start":4264.9,"end":4273.648,"text":"那請問陳院長面對NCC擺爛不作為甚至公然的違抗院長的命令請問院長現在要如何處理"},{"start":4274.315,"end":4294.301,"text":"我想NCC沒有擺爛NCC也積極在努力那今天我們的議題是在講高端合約如果委員你對於宏泰公益信託這件事情還要有所質詢的時候我會提供書面的報告本來監督政府各項的施政是我的職責嘛但是今天我們是專題報告是有關"},{"start":4296.602,"end":4304.025,"text":"高端的合約阿那你現在要談NCC的部分我說NCC沒有擺爛不應該這樣護航財團阿我們沒有護航財團我們沒有護航財團也沒有擺爛完全沒有擺爛這是你片面的講法"},{"start":4320.112,"end":4346.225,"text":"這是你片面的講法而今天的議題就是高端合約那我想問你今天來講這個東西你要資料我後面補充給你到底紅帶公益信託那騙了等於是騙了這一個行政處分那行政處分有付款的這是幾百億的交易案那也承諾說4年5年要捐15億那現在已經要跳票了那你做何處理我想通常會現在正在做各式各樣的調查"},{"start":4346.704,"end":4375.66,"text":"有關的爭議那經濟部也提供了股權的資料來進行分析那如果有違反這個相關的負擔的這個情形的話我們當然是依法處理現在是在釣房現在在根本他連續釣業教育部的資料連續做兩個月過去院長你已經指示他完全沒有處理這不是護航財團什麼是護航財團我想處理事情都有一定的程序一定的過程然後我再舉一個例子接避者保護法上個會期還有送進來"},{"start":4377,"end":4404.008,"text":"這個會期連送進來都沒有在你主持的行政院連送進來都沒有永豐金這是很明顯的他根本是在阻擾這個接避者保護法然後甚至對行政院對實力黨團對許多力推接避者保護法的人進行監控院長接避者保護法要再度跳票了嗎沒有我們這件事情已經在行政院"},{"start":4404.688,"end":4405.248,"text":"好 我們請華務部長來回答"},{"start":4426.459,"end":4431.203,"text":"沒有遙遙無期沒有遙遙無期只要這個法案只要這個法案我們審查通過我們一定會提出來我答應你一定會提出來"},{"start":4463.899,"end":4468.376,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員接下來請邱委員成言質詢"},{"start":4492.796,"end":4495.502,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們邀請陳建仁院長陳院長請"},{"start":4504.367,"end":4531.334,"text":"院長早安今天火氣有點大因為我覺得我們今天如果大家都來談高端我想今天我們還是針對議題來討論那昨天其實我們立法院召開朝野協商當時就針對這個高端合約是不是要公布我想還是回到今天的重點當時我們協商的結論我們是希望行政院在昨天下午的5點就提供相關今天專案報告的書面資料我想這個不過分吧"},{"start":4532.234,"end":4543.462,"text":"對 你們昨天才告訴我 那你那個數據資料這麼獲益吧但是你知道我們什麼時候才收到嗎今天早上8點15分才送到我辦公室對 那依法的專案報告請問一下 這個報告才11頁你需要到今天早上8點15 9點就要進行院會的專案報告 9點就要"},{"start":4556.77,"end":4557.211,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4576.232,"end":4577.714,"text":"11月的報告整個高端採購500萬劑的疫苗花了國人40億的公帑"},{"start":4596.514,"end":4623.516,"text":"消毀了300多萬人的生命沒有錯但是相關國際採購的疫苗今天有相關已經可以使用的狀況下你的EUA你的實際在推動的過程中這麼多的疑慮甚至他後續的股價的異常這個都還沒有談到今天光是針對一個採購合約的一個公開都沒有辦法來完成整個40億的公帑"},{"start":4625.137,"end":4653.218,"text":"消毀了12億總共100多萬劑的疫苗你今天給我11頁的專案報告你還要拖到早上8點15才送到我辦公室這是對的嗎這是你面對民意的態度嗎如果你今天繼續這樣下去我可以告訴你今天這個專案報告今天這個臨時會等於是白開的全體的國人都在開為什麼因為今天的結論就是你們不願意公開你告訴我因為高端董事會不同意你們還在溝通還在要求"},{"start":4653.658,"end":4676.193,"text":"但是我必須告訴你難道政府完全對他們有約束力嗎難道完全都沒有辦法要求嗎這個案子不是一天兩天你的合約不能公開是因為價格的問題商業的問題保密的問題我都了解我是海外台商出身我非常清楚但是那是在疫情期間當時市場上有相對競爭的時候但是疫情解封到現在已經一年多了已經一年多了"},{"start":4676.993,"end":4687.816,"text":"當時的合約是簽五年委員你沒有講話的機會當時簽約是五年保密所以政府要維持政府的責任我今天不想在這邊講政治但是我希望你很正視這個問題我可以告訴你在政治上的立場你不公開對你們是比較傷啦"},{"start":4698.168,"end":4714.334,"text":"老實說是這樣子啦可是為什麼今天您的態度讓我非常的失望但是政府必要維持誠信我告訴你誠信是什麼你今天包含法務部在105年的韓誓這邊就有提到"},{"start":4715.114,"end":4741.514,"text":"得標的廠商投標單清單載有投標者投標履約的內容乃民眾監督履約之工具尚非為拒絕申請政府資訊之理由這個部分很清楚啦其實如果涉及跟民眾相關權益有關的你是可以要求他啦法務部已經含釋啦難道完全對高端公司都沒有相關的約束力難道一間公司用今天老實講用人民的納稅權來做這個疫苗採購"},{"start":4743.195,"end":4743.535,"text":"我想過了嘛"},{"start":4762.159,"end":4766.441,"text":"他到底不公開的主要原因是什麼你們溝通的內容溝通的細節溝通的結果你可不可以跟國人在這邊簡單報告"},{"start":4784.29,"end":4788.833,"text":"所以今天給國人的感覺就是行政院衛福部高端大家在互相甩鍋雙面手法拖過去沒有要拖"},{"start":4807.156,"end":4835.439,"text":"什麼時候開個董事會這麼困難立法院臨時會都可以開了各黨朝野大家現在都可以來開會了為什麼高端不行立法院也召開過立法院也召開了這個調閱小組的委員會所有的高端的疫苗大家也在那個小組裡面有看過了監察院也調過這個資料"},{"start":4836.8,"end":4854.445,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":4855.265,"end":4881.454,"text":"那你就繼續保密吧我建議你就繼續保密啊你看國人為什麼看你們你看國人為什麼看今天執政黨處理這件事情政治的核心在執行力啦成功的人找方法 失敗找藉口我想如果你用這樣的態度用這樣的態度來面對民意必須院長我不想跟你在這邊口舌之爭但是你今天的這樣子的態度讓我非常的失望從你們今天行政院你們的聯絡人告訴我們的原因是什麼"},{"start":4882.39,"end":4903.236,"text":"為什麼今天早上才送到辦公室 因為長官說沒有辦法提供昨天沒有辦法提供 請問這是哪一位長官哪一位長官我們昨天開會開到了晚上的時候所以你們還是要互相套招 然後11月的沒有套招 那我問你為什麼11月你要給我搞一天"},{"start":4904.196,"end":4904.997,"text":"當時高端"},{"start":4925.257,"end":4939.333,"text":"我告訴你啦今天民進黨在國會實質過半啦實質過半今天你們所有的道業小組所有的相關提供的資料都是遮蔽啦遮蔽至少三分之一以上啦相關的重要資訊都遮蔽這要怎麼審查你告訴我"},{"start":4940.094,"end":4951.858,"text":"只要不同意的全部都要透過表決幫我們封殺掉剛才你還有你們民進黨還有臉叫國會叫國人讓你們實質過半實質過半就是實質護航啊沒有幸好是國會過半啦如果到當時呢當時在貴黨就主張說不要開發國內的疫苗我們什麼時候說不用開發國內疫苗我在這邊質詢你去調資料我每次質詢高端我第一件事情是說我們支持國產疫苗發展不要亂扣報紙"},{"start":4970.188,"end":4971.909,"text":"我們所有的專案報告以往送來的時間都是在報告的當時送過來的"},{"start":4989.804,"end":4990.724,"text":"昨天晚上7點就到辦公室在等你們的報告我還要等到8點15"},{"start":5013.396,"end":5037.891,"text":"我們昨天晚上忙到11點才把這個報告給完成所以在委員你講的我沒辦法同意我會告訴院長你的報告結論就是不公開全部以高端董事會的決議為主只要他不同意你就沒有辦法公開你對他完全沒批條國人的訴求你沒有辦法回應簡單來講就是這樣子今天給我們的結論就是這樣子請問一下我們在這邊質詢我們這樣有意義嗎"},{"start":5040.526,"end":5045.853,"text":"我想法務部的105年的函式就講得很清楚了政府是可以去要求的"},{"start":5046.584,"end":5073.786,"text":"那如果你什麼事情都要推給民間那這樣子國人能夠接受嗎而且這個相關的資訊如果說今天是在疫情緊繃的期間他有國際上採購商業秘密價格之間的競爭這個我們都同意今天解封已經一年多了國人有資的權利而且這件事情是賴清德副總統也是我們的民進黨總統候選人他在總統辯論會上面他也主張的今天你是不是也應該來去回應民意"},{"start":5076.289,"end":5095.005,"text":"應該來去回應民意那如果你們要今天用這樣的態度委員你說我們要尊重合約那我們合約簽當時簽訂的就是5年的保密協定保密條款所以我們是應該要遵照這個5年的保密條款的方式來進行那你就繼續保存5年吧"},{"start":5095.305,"end":5098.066,"text":"但是我剛才講得很清楚嗎我剛才講得很清楚我剛才講得很清楚我可以講嗎"},{"start":5119.678,"end":5131.269,"text":"高端的疫苗我剛才已經報告得很清楚真實世界的數據出來他是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣好的保護當時就是因為有很多人在"},{"start":5132.21,"end":5132.41,"text":"主席"},{"start":5152.097,"end":5173.755,"text":"我們理解涉及國家安全我們都同意涉及國產疫苗本來就是戰略物資本來就是國家安全的重要戰略物資我們都理解但是高端整個人過程國人的疑慮採購的金額相關合約的內牢甚至股價的異常坡道"},{"start":5174.395,"end":5175.356,"text":"委員你這講的都不對的啦"},{"start":5192.699,"end":5210.039,"text":"我又不對你都對好我講啊動物食用的結果早就發表了我們現在在告訴你高端合約的解密相關的效力我們沒有在跟你質疑效力喔我從頭到尾沒有在跟你質疑疫苗效力喔你不要再挖你不要再這個聲東擊西啦院長"},{"start":5210.54,"end":5238.26,"text":"不要這樣子好不好我們現在跟你講今天專報的內容相關合約採購的目標什麼時候要公布什麼時候能夠高端取得共識什麼時候能讓國人有知的權利這才是今天專報的重點我沒有在跟你討論疫苗的效力我拜託一下你剛剛還在糾正這個台上的委員另外一個部分除了在這個我今天我這樣聽起來合約是不可能公布的啦"},{"start":5239.08,"end":5261.222,"text":"至少在今天沒有結論啦我這樣聽起來啦我希望你們繼續來去要求這個法務部的含釋我希望你們仔細去看你們來用這個含釋是不是能對高端公司來進行相關的要求另外一個部分我們還是一再強調我們會支持政府的本土生技產業但是我們不希望有人利用這樣的正當性趁機哄抬股價"},{"start":5261.863,"end":5265.525,"text":"高端股價問題從它30塊附近漲起在短短一年半就暴漲逾13倍2021年5月更衝上417元尤其政府高層多次不避嫌"},{"start":5277.171,"end":5303.556,"text":"高端股跌停的時候還出面呼籲國產疫苗要有信心甚至帶頭打高端我想這個部分是不是請院長你解釋相關的股價異常波動上有沒有相關的問題好委員你是專家啦我跟你講全世界不會啦你比較專家啦好那你如果承認我是專家全世界在發展疫苗的人在發展的過程當中當動物實驗成功臨床實驗成功的時候那個股價就會一直上升"},{"start":5304.376,"end":5331.59,"text":"但是呢 如果實驗失敗的時候就會下降所以那個上升你看莫德納你看BNT的股價的變化是怎麼樣所以藥物的開發本來就是會隨著開發的不同期程它有成功的時候呢它就會股價會一直上升這個是很正常的事情所以不要懷疑它那你如果講到說有沒有什麼涉及不法實際上我們檢調單位已經查過這個士林的地檢署對於"},{"start":5333.351,"end":5348.165,"text":"有一位專家審查委員洩密這個高端實驗的好的結果給他的太太結果呢被判刑了三個月要判刑兩年我想你也很清楚嘛所以我們對於所有這些不法的事情都有在查證喔都有在這個偵辦那"},{"start":5350.854,"end":5379.933,"text":"所以這一件事情很重要而且立法院在衛黃委員會實際上呢他們也有調閱相關的這個資料那你說相關的資料在當時要提供說明也提供說明開了這麼多次的會議調閱小組開了這麼多次的會議也看了合約結果當時怎麼會沒有意見現在選舉到了又再來吵這個事情意見都很多啦只是都會被民進黨在國會直接表決封殺掉沒關係院長我剩下30秒我在這邊還是誠懇的呼籲我希望你們"},{"start":5380.854,"end":5381.034,"text":"我們一向很"},{"start":5417.691,"end":5447.145,"text":"好 謝謝區委員接下來請曾偉民中執行謝謝院長 我要先程序發言兩點 第一點 院會我就執行院長 這第一點其他部位所長不能上來第二點 院長我剛剛看的情況到底誰要執行誰啊叫院長打的時候再打還在反執行"},{"start":5450.097,"end":5478.386,"text":"好不好 院長這可能是這一屆你最後一次主席宴會希望展現是壯大民國立法院院長好不好好 謝謝 請院長好 陳院長請主委好院長好其實我看你答得不錯我問的問題你全部可以答放心我不會為難你"},{"start":5479.471,"end":5491.034,"text":"第一個羅志正委員的不雅的影片已經鑑定完成什麼事要公布這影片是不是偽造變造"},{"start":5508.294,"end":5527.808,"text":"我們尊重檢調的調查的結果調查結果是不是偽造變造那院長什麼時候公布選後再公布對不對我們會尊重司法獨立司法你想不要檢調一題你不公布就是戰斧借血"},{"start":5528.578,"end":5551.47,"text":"你同不同意不同意我想在檢調的調查過程當中你的立場我可以理解都要很審慎那你的立場當然也是會這樣子質詢我啊我是覺得很正常啊但是這個是不同意沒關係讓2300萬民眾去做出公斷好另外盧志政另外一個影片跟總統對話"},{"start":5553.8,"end":5573.241,"text":"那這個錄音檔外流到底誰偷錄這個影片這個也正在偵查當中還在偵查當然啦會不會是樓智峻自己錄就是他們兩個對話這是你個人的猜測那你認為誰錄"},{"start":5575.947,"end":5580.911,"text":"委員長你不要等閒視之啊我沒有等閒視之亞勝您跟蔡總統的對話也被錄了這有可能啊一個國會的議員跟總統的講話都被錄音那您"},{"start":5602.91,"end":5602.93,"text":"國安問題"},{"start":5632.25,"end":5632.27,"text":"一個國會議員：總統對話"},{"start":5635.663,"end":5664.274,"text":"被錄音 被流露出來或許明天就公布你跟總統的對話這是國安的問題這涉及到國家安全我同意這是國安的問題但是我跟你報告過了我們最重要的就是要讓檢調來以科學的方法還有很審慎的來看看有沒有是偽造變造等等所以這是不是要時間委員我們可以信口開河隨便講嗎當然不可以嘛"},{"start":5664.714,"end":5686.44,"text":"這就是為什麼檢調要審慎調查的原因我不是說你信口開河但是最重要的很多的人都沒有說什麼檢調馬上要公布這是不可能的事情嘛因為你事情的調查總是要時間"},{"start":5689.448,"end":5703.037,"text":"國安很重要我們會要求這很重要我也同意但是檢調會很審慎的來做相關的調查而且很迅速調查的時間我們會請這些單位一定要來加速的來辦理"},{"start":5714.417,"end":5733.455,"text":"好反正你問不出你什麼名堂好另外賴總統候選人12月30號表示為了釐清民眾對政府購買高端的疑慮政府要公布合約為什麼時間過去了到現在還不公布"},{"start":5734.292,"end":5756.064,"text":"好 這個理由我剛才已經有說明過了讓我再說明一下因為在當時我們跟高端簽訂這個合約的時候呢有五年保密的這一個條款那在政府視為簽約人的一方的時候呢我們當然要信守我們當時簽約的這一些約定那所以 但是政府呢我們曉得"},{"start":5757.125,"end":5757.526,"text":"院長你過去啊"},{"start":5775.091,"end":5794.784,"text":"那因為這裡有沒有條約的限制在政府需要維持政府的誠信如果政府沒有維持誠信的話高端的公司他的往來的對象幾乎只有蔡政府你知不知道知不知道他做生意的對象"},{"start":5796.496,"end":5820.222,"text":"我覺得這是你個人的看法什麼個人的看法你看他的銷售收入啊他做生意的收入啦沒關係你業務不熟啦我熟得很99.9%他的銷售收入都是只有蔡政府蔡政府他你只要他你他是你唯一"},{"start":5826.843,"end":5841.979,"text":"我剛才在報告的時候也跟兩位邱委員在講的時候就講得很清楚我們是也主張要公開而且我們也是積極的來跟高端來聯繫希望他能夠盡早來公布"},{"start":5842.159,"end":5844.561,"text":"民法規定顯示公平的合約是無效的我練給你聽"},{"start":5873.124,"end":5895.558,"text":"廠商說明已盡商業上最大努力而無法履歷者機關同意不對廠商追償以致付出契約價金那接下來呢就這樣子喔他已經最大努力就不追償價金啦剛才我的報告裡面已經講了如果可以歸屬於廠商院長我跟你講我當了一輩子的公務員我沒有看過這種合約"},{"start":5902.305,"end":5918.653,"text":"沒有看過這種合約顯示公平難怪你不敢公布啦你這樣講我不同意很重要的一件事情是剛才我的剛才我已經講過嘛剛才我已經講過如果可歸屬於廠商的是要處罰的啊我沒有處罰的就處罰所以並不是沒有處罰你這樣講你是斷章取義啦沒有啊這合約啊"},{"start":5931.204,"end":5950.599,"text":"對阿我跟你講就是說我剛才也講過如果違反合約的時候是廠商的責任他是要受處罰的阿有阿有寫在另外一條阿所以所以我覺得阿就業公布就可以了啦什麼處罰阿你懂不懂阿好再請教你阿我懂喔這個疫苗阿我有幾個疑點好你說第一個"},{"start":5954.397,"end":5972.506,"text":"高端是民間公司為什麼未服務還沒有採購高端公司就已經知道採購價格他就知道要700塊以上欸那個是錯假消息啦那個700塊是錯假消息絕對是真消息"},{"start":5973.973,"end":5999.606,"text":"委員那個是我們疾管署當時都還沒有這是錯假消息真的是錯假消息當時是疾管署他們為了要要採購這個疫苗所講的那個是錯假消息然後被剪接的被會黨的議員剪接的消息這是假消息第二點"},{"start":6001.066,"end":6020.183,"text":"為什麼衛福部還沒有通過疫苗的審查高端知道一定會通過一路一路立登這也是錯假消息錯假真的阿你怎麼會一路通過我們當時有三家廠商一路開立登阿你沒看過那個錄音帶一路開立登阿好委員我可以講嗎好"},{"start":6027.816,"end":6030.557,"text":"你對資本市場不熟啦高端的前身叫什麼"},{"start":6054.321,"end":6083.684,"text":"高端在證交所或者櫃檯中心的紀錄我們要看他實驗的結論講科學啦講科學啦你講科學來講不管他你這樣講是不公平的不公平啊你去查紀錄好我們來查紀錄他的動物實驗很成功動物實驗很成功臨床一期很成功臨床二期很成功而且出來的效果比AZ還要來得好"},{"start":6084.164,"end":6085.606,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6105.393,"end":6121.389,"text":"民進黨說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對對不對我聽不清楚你說好再講一次民進黨政府說高端是疫苗國家隊對不對我想當時我們徵求的疫苗國家隊一共有三個隊"},{"start":6122.29,"end":6143.174,"text":"一個就是聯亞 一個就是國光 一個就是高端而且他們在很嚴格的限制下要把動物實驗的結果臨床一期 臨床二期提出來才能夠做這就是國家隊我們鼓勵所有的廠商投入疫苗研發而不是去鼓勵政府去採購中國的疫苗那個疫苗效價最差的 幸好沒有 幸好沒有採購"},{"start":6152.239,"end":6153.52,"text":"所以我們的國交隊是必要來購﹖"},{"start":6162.52,"end":6181.539,"text":"他是什麼國家隊阿他在他在巴拉圭取得臨床三期他在泰國取得臨床三期他跟世界衛生組織有這個技術轉移的這個簽約而且他世界衛生組織也幫他做三期的臨床實驗完全抹煞了科學的證據完全抹煞科學證據"},{"start":6186.204,"end":6193.949,"text":"好 再跟你講疫苗是國家對對不對那為什麼這一次的流感疫苗你是代理韓國的疫苗沒辦法自己生產你連流感的疫苗都沒辦法自己生產欸你還代理韓國的欸"},{"start":6211.923,"end":6221.415,"text":"我想委員你不要把高端疫苗跟流感疫苗 流感疫苗的製作比起高端疫苗的製作要來得簡單我問提示在這裡我代理韓國的這什麼國家隊啊"},{"start":6227.403,"end":6230.344,"text":"我還是那個問題你既然是疫苗國家隊連"},{"start":6255.93,"end":6258.131,"text":"在當時臺灣缺疫苗的時候在野黨要求我們用中國的疫苗"},{"start":6280.962,"end":6281.382,"text":"高端股價"},{"start":6307.079,"end":6311.904,"text":"從2020的27元一路炒到20215月31的417塊後來一路下跌昨天收盤是68.4元院長有多少散戶"},{"start":6326.209,"end":6334.373,"text":"臨時慘重打電話到辦公室抗議蔡政府蔡政府蔡政府從20幾塊抖化41728塊都要閃出受害院長你知不知道"},{"start":6345.964,"end":6347.765,"text":"我們已經查了而且已經判刑了"},{"start":6386.906,"end":6411.245,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員接下來請林委員竣現質詢謝謝主席本席邀請我們行政院陳院長院長請衛生部部長華務部部長華務部部長請林委員好院長好"},{"start":6412.557,"end":6441.264,"text":"委員長想不到我們到2024年第一次在立法院開會還在討論高端疫苗的事情高端疫苗啊這個事情討論了兩年多啦光是行政院院長的報告就有三次你今天第四次來光是在委員會的專案報告就有16次在委員會的調閱就有兩次國民黨的召委講話很主持契約拿給"},{"start":6441.929,"end":6471.034,"text":"就拿出來看嘛對不對對有沒有看過看過兩遍啦看過兩次啦講完組織的會議啦所以有什麼樣的弊案啊就告了63個案司法偵辦啊法務部長在那全部都是沒有佈罰偵檢不起訴嘛說不定有問題還去找啊今天為什麼叫你來所以你要有耐心一點啦我覺得他們是為了選舉啦"},{"start":6472.247,"end":6473.747,"text":"這是他們的選舉動作國民黨真的有心要查"},{"start":6502.369,"end":6529.625,"text":"我剛上台以前看一下啦38席的國民黨委員啦只來23席啦還有40%的國民黨立委沒有來啦還是我們民進黨幫忙他動員今天才可以成會啦真的有心要查就全部來啊負責任一點啊國民黨立委國民黨黨團自己都叫不過來啦結果開會都不來啊他們今天要求開這個題目啊以為民進黨會把他封殺啦"},{"start":6531.784,"end":6553.288,"text":"選前4天開什麼臨時會討論一個已經2年多來我剛才再講一次行政院長專案報告3次委員會專案報告16次委員會調閱2次司法查了63個案子全部不起訴選前4天還在開這個會為了什麼懂了嗎為了選舉他以為民進黨把他火絕掉讓會開不成然後就說民進黨害怕民進黨要隱瞞"},{"start":6562.978,"end":6582.746,"text":"講不到 我們就只求對決嘛就讓城鎮的院長來講清楚嘛讓在野黨來質詢嘛只是你講得再好 你說得再清楚他們一樣不接受因為你剛有提到啦契約為什麼不能公布我們好像跟每一個當時搶購疫苗全世界都在搶契約裡面啊"},{"start":6585.114,"end":6605.847,"text":"他們都有要求保命的年限嘛好啦高端就算我們現在請他公布他不公布如果他董事會開了一樣不公布那五年後我們就有權利公布了嘛是不是這樣子 財務部長是不是這樣子最慢就是五年嘛五年嘛 對不對所以我們現在請他公布嘛 對不對"},{"start":6607.159,"end":6634.157,"text":"我們現在我們不是只有針對高端的有保密條款所有的都有AZ高端保密一年五年我理解這樣對不對因為你們以前都破過了我都有印象Normal Facts保密七年對不對BNT十年莫德納賣我們要求永遠不能公布我們那時候為了要搶莫德納大家說要住莫德納所以我們就知道也是簽了我們這個永遠不能公布"},{"start":6636.172,"end":6658.415,"text":"那在立法院委員會調閱的時候其實啊 你說有 國民黨說有一些東西有圖的啦但是啦 其實最重要的數字 後來都有浮現出來嘛疫苗的單價嘛 疫苗的數量嘛然後政府花了多少錢嘛 這最重要的啊還在炒這個事情"},{"start":6659.721,"end":6688.375,"text":"不要妄想用高端疫苗案當作是凱旋院這扒皮了的遮羞布所以你今天浪費行政和立法的資源照理埋在這裡討論過那麼多次還在討論這有問題是要去告嘛那我在請問院長你剛說你要說清楚的查了那麼多那高端的股價異常有沒有人為炒作"},{"start":6697.452,"end":6716.66,"text":"在這個高端的相關的這個案件涉及不法的部分其實檢調單位曾經有調查士林地檢署有這個對於食藥署裡面的疫苗審查專家這個劉醫師他洩密高端的這個好的這個研究成果給他的太太"},{"start":6718.861,"end":6742.789,"text":"因此因為犯了內線交易經過市林地院判決有期徒刑三個月緩刑兩年有期徒刑一年六個月緩刑四年這一個部分都已經有所定案所以如果真的有不法的時候我們一定是查到底的這個是絕對不會有所搜索的我們一定會全力以赴"},{"start":6743.789,"end":6765.03,"text":"所以政府是這樣子的來看看這個高端的這樣的情形那我剛才講過這個有民間提出了63件對於陳時中的圖利瀆職的這一些控訴在臺北地檢署他經過了這個調查以後就查無不法全數遷截所以在這裡"},{"start":6765.811,"end":6791.691,"text":"我們已經經過了這一些很嚴謹的事情而且地檢署就是完全按照這樣的方式很認真的在查緝相關的可能被提起來弊案但是都是完全查無不法然後完全簽結所以這件事情我是覺得我完全同意委員現在在講才提出來完全是在一個選舉的炒作不過如果講到選舉的炒作我真的很想"},{"start":6792.512,"end":6810.866,"text":"我可以講一下嗎我們來看看當COVID-19剛剛開始進入到台灣的時候我們的在野黨還有境外勢力的這一個協力者他怎麼說說我們要跟中國一樣看待我們一定要來這一個封城我們一定要普篩我們一定要停班停課我們一定要停工"},{"start":6812.076,"end":6823.068,"text":"好在我們當時的中央流行疫情指揮中心說不是我們要做好邊境管控我們要做好疫調我們要做好居家隔離居家檢疫結果呢我們在2020年"},{"start":6824.733,"end":6843.238,"text":"三百六十五天裡面有兩百五十多天是零確診全世界大為驚豔而且我們的經濟在那個時候是全世界成長率最高的兩個國家之一那美國也是這樣來稱讚美國的經濟研究所也是說臺灣做得最好死亡率最低而經濟負成長"},{"start":6845.319,"end":6861.997,"text":"最少也就是有正成長的一個國家全世界第一名喔但是到了2021年我們開始在談疫苗的時候多少的在野黨還有境外勢力的呼和者說要買中國的疫苗那中國的疫苗是所有的銷價最低的"},{"start":6863.038,"end":6887.517,"text":"致力買了中國的疫苗以後疫情繼續上升直到打BNT才下來澳洲跟香港也打了這個疫苗然後不得不打BNT的疫苗幸好當時我們是蔡總統能夠贏得2020的選舉幸好國會過半要不的話我們的防疫特別條例我們的疫後特別條例要通過我看還是百般刁難"},{"start":6888.658,"end":6910.515,"text":"那好 那我們當時幸好沒有買國藥跟這個科興喔你如果買了以後 像中國一樣連續三年 處處在封城 天天在普篩然後經濟蕭條 就會隨著中國沉淪那個時候 因為有很多的民眾為了"},{"start":6912.449,"end":6932.483,"text":"臨時會議"},{"start":6932.623,"end":6960.014,"text":"只有7成5打預防針你看看日本韓國還有新加坡多到9成5以上所以我們台灣死亡的人大部分都是沒有打預防針的這些老人家一個錯誤的建議一個抹黑謾罵使得台灣有多少老人家因此而死亡這實在令我很痛心欸可以這樣嗎可以為了政治利益使得我們的國人不願意去打預防針"},{"start":6961.581,"end":6983.169,"text":"可以嗎還現在選舉到了還要繼續來謾罵現在要鼓勵大家來XBB啦這樣子一講老人家又不去打了誰要負責任所以我覺得齁這一些在野黨實在是不是幸好你看看如果不是蔡總統連任不是國會過半如果韓國瑜"},{"start":6984.649,"end":7009.727,"text":"選上了總統如果其他的在野黨過半的時候台灣不會有今天這樣的局面這是我今天很沉痛的要講高端疫苗是多好的疫苗動物實驗臨床一期臨床二期都做得那麼成功在世界一流的雜誌上發表偏偏要抹黑讓台灣的人民不願意去接種但是副作用最低的你讓那些怕副作用的老人家不打於心何忍啊"},{"start":7011.089,"end":7021.322,"text":"真的我今天實在是大家說我激動我就是這樣激動的原因就是我這樣子依附到中國去的做法"},{"start":7022.233,"end":7042.079,"text":"就是很可能使得台灣是很沉淪的跟著中國一起沉淪所以台灣在這幾年3年我們的經濟GDP是連續3年最高的而且我們的這個外銷也是最高的所以我們才有很好的這個稅入稅出盈餘連續5年超過1000億去2022年可以到達5000億這是全民努力的成果"},{"start":7050.382,"end":7075.85,"text":"但是政協黨為了政治利益可以這樣抹煞我們全民的努力可以抹煞所有防疫一線的人員這2300萬個無名英雄的攻擊可以這樣抹煞嗎今天我實在是太難過了院長你也辛苦啦但是啦我們也知道在當時啦台灣確實防疫成績啦是全世界肯定光是海外的台灣人跑回台灣國內回來避難了"},{"start":7079.202,"end":7104.776,"text":"當時估計就至少100萬有能力都跑回台灣來台灣那時候200多天是零確診是全世界最安全的地方當時疫苗剛...就是說剛需要注射疫苗的時候啦國民黨還強力要求說不可以歧視中國疫苗你剛有提到嘛 對不對要求大家要...這個政府要進口中國疫苗來打中國人自己都不打他們的疫苗啦"},{"start":7105.632,"end":7133.16,"text":"有能力的中國人啊他們都他們還叫打輝瑞啦他們自己的疫苗他們也不敢打但不管如何啦回歸到今天在黨再來搞這個所謂的高端疫苗啦什麼契約啦完全就是為了選舉操作完全為了要轉移焦點那既然會已經開了民進黨協助會才開得成要求要開會的是國民黨"},{"start":7135.76,"end":7163.995,"text":"自己的立委也不來開會還是民進黨幫他動員現在會議才開了什麼說疫苗 疫苗也不是沒有討論過我剛就提過啦這兩年多來開了幾十次會議在當時啦 委員會調閱的時候啦立法院委員會的每一個立委都看過契約啦他們說有土匪啦土匪的部分我認為主要就是價格啦 數量等那些東西嘛"},{"start":7164.91,"end":7187.53,"text":"後來高端自己也有片面的一些公布那我再說如果他真的他們公司拒絕公布那5年後這個東西大家還是看得到但是如果契約有限定就像我們剛提的AZ高端說5年Normal Vax 7年BND要求10年莫德納要求我們永遠不能公布"},{"start":7189.485,"end":7217.779,"text":"那我搞不懂大家可以要求災難各要求政府去做一個違反契約違法的事情嗎就這麼簡單啊是不是這樣 任何人都有可能執政啊任何政黨執政你可以簽一個合約然後你自己違背違背跟這個契約這顯不合理嘛但是重點資訊啊也不是沒有討論過"},{"start":7219.892,"end":7235.533,"text":"那不是這樣?所以吼,你今天吼,沒關係啦,這是你行政院長的職責啦,你到我們立法院來,你就把該解釋的解釋,該說明的說明。但是你講的再好,說明的再清楚,這些東西,他們還是不會接受。"},{"start":7236.683,"end":7256.861,"text":"這院長不要收集我不是收集我是覺得台灣人的生命是很重要 健康的保護是很重要那在這樣的一個情況下我們真的是希望我們草野都能夠團結一致使得台灣的防疫工作做得越來越好不要去抹黑台灣的這一個很難得做出來的這個好疫苗"},{"start":7257.381,"end":7283.104,"text":"然後使得很多的民眾因為他被抹黑的關係沒有辦法使用而喪失了很多的生命這一件事情我到現在說老實話我是沒有辦法接受的啦好 謝謝啦 一定辛苦你啦我們一定努力的按照委員的意見在這裡來好好回答問題選舉到了都會發生這些奇奇怪怪的事情我也希望我們全民大家團結一致抗議"},{"start":7283.604,"end":7307.457,"text":"在這裡我還要再呼籲一下希望大家都能夠去打XBB的COVID-19的預防針因為中國大陸現在有JN1新的病毒株出來這個病毒株這個XBB的疫苗才會有效以往打的不會有效果那我也希望大家不要再去抹黑然後大家好好的去做好這個預防的接種那才是全民之福啦好 謝謝院長 謝謝榮華部長謝謝主席"},{"start":7315.609,"end":7317.131,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進我以為"},{"start":7337.884,"end":7362.827,"text":"今天老柯一向老謀深算老君懼華要同意我們來開歷史會其中必有詐以為說要公開了要讀我們的嘴要公開了原來都沒有了原來今天來這一本就是什麼這一本叫做陳建仁替高端"},{"start":7364.804,"end":7390.102,"text":"擦肢模糊報告書啦貴為行政院長自甘墮落成為高端的salesman開口閉口高端我贊都我贊台灣我贊都我贊喔台灣他就贊啊別人不行啊3加11的破口不要忘了死了多少人死了多少人高端到現在為止走不出去啊"},{"start":7391.141,"end":7400.699,"text":"國際沒有承認高端不要忘了他到現在為止沒有做第三期喔院長你不要當了院長來請院長來院長請"},{"start":7409.562,"end":7434.547,"text":"委員謝謝你請我上來我還以為你不讓我有講的機會實際上你上來講的是完全不正確我沒有叫你講先不要講OK你尊重我在這裡是我的時間是我的時間院長大家原來你上台大家覺得你多少一個學術良心你中研院這麼高的位置這麼高的學術高度我剛才講的都是自習講完你不要插嘴可以嗎請你不要插嘴尊重我"},{"start":7435.247,"end":7455.453,"text":"那你給我講話的機會我讓你講話再講今天前面的委員今天為什麼這個會賴清德自己講的是賴清德先Kick Go賴清德說要公開高端疫苗到昨天還講要公開是賴清德要公開"},{"start":7457.093,"end":7476.743,"text":"不要忘了什麼政治鬥爭什麼之類的我們是跟著去說你看民調臺灣的人民70%的人希望公開所以才今天要講臨時會來 院長你不要回答你不回答你不要回答來來來問你你有沒有講過高端要公開"},{"start":7484.198,"end":7487.259,"text":"陳建仁說高端公開要同時會同意陳時中嗆嗆你喔 不可以啊徐樂園也嗆你啊"},{"start":7511.431,"end":7529.851,"text":"雖然又上了一課﹚斷章取義﹚他說要高端考量中啊高端不是你們的紅帝勒好像是你們的太上皇一樣欸我不同意高端 高端 欸 什麼東西 欸 來這是不是你講的 陳建仁一月五號講的"},{"start":7532.153,"end":7537.716,"text":"請你針對問題回答說是不是要公開一定要高端同意是不是是不是yes no好這樣就好了來"},{"start":7559.4,"end":7565.764,"text":"高端是行政院的太上皇嗎?你剛才回答你不同意高端公司是民營的公司剛才院長在"},{"start":7575.35,"end":7575.95,"text":"我可以回答嗎"},{"start":7599.976,"end":7607.583,"text":"軍公教連改也是依法辦理而且大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革你相信大法官的解釋還是相信"},{"start":7618.594,"end":7619.255,"text":"你誤解了臺灣的法律"},{"start":7635.384,"end":7660.544,"text":"我告訴你你講說要信守契約只針對高端軍公教不必信守契約啊軍公教不必信守這個承諾而且這是法律欸高端沒有法律好我講給你聽高端在民國110年5月30號重巡樓重大訊息發布他是上櫃公司"},{"start":7663.449,"end":7666.172,"text":"限制條款依採購機關要求就是衛福部要求"},{"start":7677.159,"end":7700.224,"text":"不可以公開所以不是高端不要公開啊找到捏到衛福部要求衛福部沒有要求他重訓是這樣要求重訓是一單方面公告的我們經過衛福部同意叫他公開這個是高端的重訓114年5月30日重訓他說是你們要求他不可以公開"},{"start":7705.305,"end":7713.455,"text":"是你們要求的我們沒有要求阿他這樣寫阿他這樣寫必須要我們通過我們的同意他就可以寫阿你沒有就針阿你沒有就針阿"},{"start":7716.479,"end":7736.45,"text":"我不是他在這個證券的這個主管的機關他是你太上皇嗎什麼叫太上皇現在是民主時代哪有什麼太上皇現在行政院委員部自導自演你叫他不可以公開結果現在說公開要他同意現在這個事情"},{"start":7737.39,"end":7762.364,"text":"高端是民營公司,難道民營公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎?叫做全台灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存這是他一念之詞,問負部沒有叫他不可以公開"},{"start":7763.044,"end":7790.349,"text":"委員你不要用高端的重訓來...奇怪 重訓 高端的事奇怪 他公開資料欸拜託這是公開資料錯誤的資料來來來 黃主委黃主委來來講講一下重訓 黃主委怎麼處理重訓儘管會主委他的重訓居然是一文不值啊儘管會主委是幹什麼的來來來 黃主委講一下重訓怎麼處理"},{"start":7791.973,"end":7813.538,"text":"那他公布是真的假的你們要不要查核這個就是他當委員您剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解他的背景你去瞭解好不好你去瞭解假如即便這樣來我在你可以請回好不好就居然"},{"start":7824.596,"end":7852.673,"text":"來 我們來看喔 下一張上一張我們可以 我們來可以看了可以看為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開為什麼一定不能公開他又沒有要外銷他只有一百零一個買主就是衛務部他去年的一到七月份營業額是零啊靠著"},{"start":7859.871,"end":7874.317,"text":"報告 報告委員高端的長病毒疫苗已經上市對 你完全不懂高端的情況而且現在 委員我可以講了吧"},{"start":7876.001,"end":7900.13,"text":"你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣但是呢你不要忘掉高端沒有但是高端我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要進轉但是高端的疫苗確實高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了台灣300萬人的生命"},{"start":7904.013,"end":7915.878,"text":"這個你不可以否認因為它的效果就是跟BNT跟莫德納一樣好啊那你現在抹煞了這種事情就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞才會使得台灣的產業沒有辦法"},{"start":7925.201,"end":7940.807,"text":"我等一下給你一系列的東西你現在就講 下次講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗哪一位你說你在這裡分放假訊息啊你就是假訊息中心陳院長你怎麼可以這樣子啊這樣子沒有辦法討論事情啊要來講的是事實當時有多少人主張要進入中國"},{"start":7950.331,"end":7951.552,"text":"國民黨團提案說我們進口全世界"},{"start":7969.232,"end":7993.116,"text":"包括中國的疫苗就是包括中國疫苗啊你講的就是中國疫苗啊世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗所以你們要是主張中國疫苗啊因為你要世界衛生組織核准的就是中國疫苗所以你是有主張啊所以你剛才自己講了有啊"},{"start":7993.576,"end":8008.779,"text":"你說進口世界衛生組織合格的疫苗就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎你這個是假訊息你自己世界衛生組織合格的就包括中國疫苗"},{"start":8009.591,"end":8034.539,"text":"什麼會沒有 你告訴我世界衛生組織可不可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗 有沒有 有啊 確實是有當然有 但是也有中國的疫苗啊所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛所以我沒有報告小訊息 是你自己講的是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口"},{"start":8035.629,"end":8042.671,"text":"那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥假查為什麼明明他說700塊才會殺你啊為什麼2881平均840這不是圖利就是罵你喔這是笨蛋"},{"start":8059.543,"end":8087.137,"text":"這不是文章你那個7百塊你那個7百塊是Tag Average台灣當中買3千萬這個疫苗是想說大概要7百塊委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的AZ疫苗是很便宜的那個我們剛才講到的中國的疫苗那種很簡單的做法的還有那個高階的疫苗像高端的是不一樣所以這是說一下你7百塊錢那個是錯的消息"},{"start":8087.984,"end":8093.226,"text":"剪調是我不同意這件事情你這樣講的話我不同意剪調怎麼會是行政院開的你這樣講不對嘛"},{"start":8112.254,"end":8114.176,"text":"委員不要選舉到了到處抹黑啦沒有意思的是你講的"},{"start":8133.834,"end":8143.138,"text":"你真的不是圖利就是飯桶講到你痛處所以你跟我吵架沒有我沒有飯桶我沒有圖利你飯桶或是圖利我可以講嗎我可以講嗎不是圖利不可以講"},{"start":8161.818,"end":8165.599,"text":"你對廢死態度怎麼樣財務委員說廢死不是目標陳菊人權會成立廢死的推動工作項目"},{"start":8190.868,"end":8220.391,"text":"有院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊所以民進黨推動廢死在路上在路上在哪裡在路上在路上啊黨綱把它查一查有廢死啊今天來講為什麼可以拖28個38個3738 37都一樣whatever很多為什麼這樣就是因為你們用一個叫死刑執行規則這不是法律啊"},{"start":8222.181,"end":8226.906,"text":"在這裡公開呼籲大家反對被死的人票投侯友宇、張紹康"},{"start":8244.984,"end":8245.305,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8272.625,"end":8276.572,"text":"休息10分鐘休息之後繼續進行執行現在休息"},{"start":8912.93,"end":8913.07,"text":"邱委員長"},{"start":8937.233,"end":8955.253,"text":"我想在這三四年來大家臺灣的防疫非常的成功在各個各界還有人民全民的配合支持下會說是達到了一個我在2021年曾經五月的時候曾經寫一個文章在這個"},{"start":8957.634,"end":8982.624,"text":"臺灣news也是這次到我們臺灣將要面對一個會創造一個臺灣光榮的時刻接下來在政府的領導之下全民的努力之下我們做到了看下一站那我站在這個立場我必須要來肯定我們全國醫療同仁過去的努力以及我們政府怎麼樣跟"},{"start":8983.855,"end":9000.932,"text":"一介來合作的很簡單的跟院長跟他說明一下首先我們非常感謝我們蔡總統一直在防疫的一個工作裡面一直支持我們不管我們什麼需求只要跟總統講他其實都會盡全力來努力"},{"start":9002.059,"end":9029.89,"text":"我們也感謝陳副總統當時領導建立一個非常溫馨、智慧、有專業的一個防疫的模式其實是帶領我們醫界走向一個醫療堅定、醫療核心價值以及站在人民需求的立場上來創造一個更好的醫療防疫的能力請看下一張那在這幾年當中我們也真的非常感謝陳副總統其實他一直深深的"},{"start":9031.059,"end":9038.176,"text":"以他醫師的專業以他過去的經驗一直在指導我們EJ甚至也多次到我們醫師工會"},{"start":9040.178,"end":9061.853,"text":"來這邊做現場的一個互動指導那如果有任何的需要其實或者他想到要指導我們什麼的話其實我們是溝通無礙所以在防疫的過程當中賴副總統對我們醫界貢獻是非常的大那當然行政團隊在蘇院長的領導之下我們很多的我的好朋友都是疫情專家"},{"start":9063.214,"end":9077.161,"text":"的投入我深深的日以繼夜在為防疫工作在這邊也特別用醫界的立場來感謝他們的投入那當然醫事公會過去因為醫界總是台灣珍貴的資產"},{"start":9080.121,"end":9103.793,"text":"國際百年來就是一直守護人民的健康所以當然一開始還有SARS的經驗SARS在我們陳建仁老師還有很多前輩的指導之下一切學到了很好的經驗所以一開始的時候我們一切就很擔心就立誓說不能有任何的醫護人員在受到傷害相對的就不能有人民受到傷害所以我們基本上全國"},{"start":9105.895,"end":9131.173,"text":"24縣市的醫治工委全部推收日理企業在做防疫的工作以外大概每一個禮拜我們都會開一個全國性的醫治會議然後看看政府有來配合政府的政策把落實到所有全國各鄉鎮的任何一個角落有疫情有狀況我們在社區就給他鎖住最好的一個防疫的一個陣線那比如說我們在"},{"start":9132.586,"end":9161.278,"text":"人員醫院比較緊迫的時候我們可以看下面的部分其實我們也發動了全國的也是在總統的指導之下基層醫師在出來拚因為醫院緊緊緊繃、人力緊繃還有很多重症需要治療所以我們就動員了四大方向當然也請奧比奧科醫學會來做指導全國來做篩檢的工作當然我們因為人心會需要穩定"},{"start":9162.029,"end":9186.988,"text":"除了我的老師陳建仁院長給我們全國很大的心理的一個支持以外我們也要給他們做身心壓力的一個照顧這個我們請精神醫學會來幫忙另外在社區還是很多預防保健及慢性的疾病的管理及家級安寧照顧等等的一個照顧其實在我們也請家庭醫學會動員來指導我們跟基層醫師來做"},{"start":9190.973,"end":9218.405,"text":"最後就是我們的一個社區打疫苗的事情我們請兒科醫學院他們比較會打疫苗來做所以這樣有動員萬民的基層醫療這樣做那這個過程當中我也感謝我們陳建仁老師在這樣的一個工作裡面給我們最大的支持那當然後續完成的六大任務這一次這幾年來最重要就是不管是PCR的採檢還有就是演技的一個診療大家應該知道這個"},{"start":9219.728,"end":9232.682,"text":"當台北市在疫情緊繃的時候,一天有1萬個感染者這1萬多只要有20隻跑到醫院去,醫院急診就崩潰了但是我們政府有一個很好的政策,就是居家的一個醫療,視訊醫療"},{"start":9236.519,"end":9238.44,"text":"那當然就是在疫苗的追踪其實也感謝陳"},{"start":9266.872,"end":9267.872,"text":"當然這樣的成果我們"},{"start":9297.014,"end":9326.181,"text":"也不只在國內所處我們只要分享給我們世界各國那剛好我們台灣醫師會跟世界醫師會互動非常好所以我們的專家把我們台灣的很多經驗也分享到世界各國所以世界醫師會更加肯定我們台灣在過去醫療的水準甚至防疫的水準都是一流的更加的堅定支持我們台灣一定要參與WHO的活動所以大家的防疫成果其實是"},{"start":9327.003,"end":9353.862,"text":"幫我們臺灣打下了很多的江山那我也曾經在2021我擔任這個亞大19個國家醫師會的總會長我們也把我們的經驗分享給亞洲19個國家讓他們能夠防疫的更好亞太的安全當然是大家努力的那同時也在2021年的9月在臺灣開的西貿大會裡面我們把過去大家努力的經驗 心血"},{"start":9356.092,"end":9378.78,"text":"呈現在有一個叫做臺北宣言發表在國際間最近也得到WHO世界議事會世界議事會跟WHO息子相關要我們把它正式在REVISE 變成世界級我想都是我們政府民間還有各個專業團體大家一起努力貢獻的一個結果請看下一張那請問"},{"start":9383.73,"end":9410.387,"text":"院長有沒有對前面這些工作要不要跟我們醫療團隊或者是講幾句話我想台灣在過去2020年開始連續三四年的這個期間我們真的要謝謝我們邱太偉委員還有我們醫事公會甚至全國防疫還有醫療第一線的工作同仁們的辛勞大家的努力確實使得"},{"start":9411.428,"end":9411.648,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9441.408,"end":9460.111,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":9460.111,"end":9489.923,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":9490.123,"end":9515.32,"text":"新北市跟北市因為有所謂的萬華事件的關係所以這個疫情曾經告急在這樣的一個情況下也幸好我們在新北市跟台北市的醫師們大家都積極來努力做好疫調做好相關的醫療照顧我記得當時這兩個市的市長還說我們來封城好了我們沒有辦法做疫調沒有辦法做好"},{"start":9516.04,"end":9540.371,"text":"在那樣的一個情況下完全束手無策要放棄原來的防疫措施幸好我們所有的醫事人員還有第一線的防疫人員大家很積極的去做好這個工作結果我們把Alpha的這個疫情也控制住全世界都大為驚豔我們當時的接種率很低的情況下就是靠著很好的精準疫調精準篩檢精準的"},{"start":9540.931,"end":9541.031,"text":"主席"},{"start":9561.772,"end":9588.17,"text":"好 謝謝院長陳老師的一個鼓勵以及對全國醫療團隊所有環醫的工作等等的一個再度的鼓勵那其實這些成功其實是其來有自當然這個努力我也要感謝我們協熱人部長在這過去幾年當中次長的任內跟我們醫界攜手合作我們到哪裡他就到哪裡一樣的"},{"start":9589.355,"end":9611.6,"text":"來做一種防疫的工作在這邊特別感謝我們謝部長那我要講的就是前面的努力其實直擊於臺灣的珍貴所以臺灣應該要更加來和諧更加的來互相攜手來把所有過去大家的努力累積的老幹心之傳承好繼續守護這個臺灣像我剛剛這個圖就是"},{"start":9615.236,"end":9640.705,"text":"我們其實臺灣百年來醫者就是關懷人民跟社會的情懷那我也記得我的老師臺大醫學院的前院長謝伯仁教授其實我這30年來所有在不管在醫師公會或者是在立委案上我都跟隨他的理念他是一個不求名利只求臺灣好的人在過去他也跟陳建仁教授非常合作在推動很多很多到現在"},{"start":9642.254,"end":9647.098,"text":"臺灣有這樣的資產,我們大家未來可以珍惜守護臺灣,讓臺灣的專業發揮,我想是人民之福"},{"start":9666.291,"end":9680.837,"text":"那小弟我大概在去年也是借領臺大退休的所以我現在是臺大的名譽教授那但是我想未來我想我們有更多更多臺灣更多的醫療專業的職員這是臺灣的一個要珍貴的因為我們的訓練百年來就是讓我們怎麼樣關懷人民"},{"start":9686.351,"end":9713.483,"text":"所以這中間我還是因為我算是今天應該是很榮幸又有機會來這邊發言應該是我在立法院最後一次公開發言我在這邊還是要表達說臺灣過去百年來醫療人員對人民對社會的一個貢獻那現在的一個制度方面我們也希望未來怎麼樣改善一個更好的醫療環境那藉著這樣的一個疫情的一個疫後我們就"},{"start":9714.394,"end":9715.814,"text":"我上次也有建議其實在後疫情時代"},{"start":9743.749,"end":9769.182,"text":"我們怎麼樣其實世界各國都在善待醫事人員投入必要的醫療資源因為他們都站在疫情當中守護人民的健康第二個就是說如果在健保方面也是臺灣的蠻力度高但是對醫療人員是承擔比較重如果總而沒有辦法隨醫療需求來承受是不是應該要怎麼樣來健康投資這個是我們未來以後要嚴肅面對的問題"},{"start":9771.82,"end":9791.62,"text":"第三個在基層醫療社區醫療怎麼樣加強他們的量能跟數位的能力我想以後未來我希望建設一個健康台灣裡面這幾點都可以請我們執政部團隊未來好好的針對這個來努力那我也希望執政團隊把這個內陸記錄將來"},{"start":9794.714,"end":9821.164,"text":"這是議界的心聲當然最後一個小小的請求就是我們112年第二季第三季平均點子0.9但是其實希望在二三季都能不動浮動點子因為有些平均點子還是有些點子會不到0.9還是很辛苦那診所只要沒有到0.9它其實是很難經營下去這個也拜託行政院這邊也在後續再繼續的一個努力請問下一張"},{"start":9822.406,"end":9838.293,"text":"最後雖然今天有三個主題但是我希望不要影響到我們對防疫的成果臺灣的努力臺灣人的光榮衷心感謝防疫工作的研發政策研擬實務防疫的團隊及全民的支持跟配合感謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員接下來請王委員 洪威執行"},{"start":9859.315,"end":9859.575,"text":"王委員 早安"},{"start":9884.281,"end":9911.177,"text":"院長先請教剛才您回答邱太元委員的時候您有特別提到那兩個市長就是疫情的時間沒有做好請問一下你所指的兩位市長是指哪兩位當然就是臺北市的市長跟新北市的市長在當時萬華地區產生了這一些老人茶室產生的傷口的情況你認為萬華是破口嗎"},{"start":9912.628,"end":9927.473,"text":"最主要的情況呢在當時的這個事件一發生的時候呢你剛才講的說講的是臺北市跟新北市長就是講柯文哲和侯友宜是吧是啊他們是在當市長對"},{"start":9929.827,"end":9947.502,"text":"剛才因為在之前幾個在答詢裡面院長認為今天的臨時會是跟選舉有關但是我覺得在這個場合院長特別針對另外兩個現在總統候選人去指控我覺得這是行政不中立"},{"start":9948.223,"end":9948.763,"text":"我是講事實委員我會回答嗎"},{"start":9967.975,"end":9969.376,"text":"主席 我可不可以質詢 可以嗎 來"},{"start":9983.503,"end":10007.795,"text":"因為這個問題蠻重要因為剛才我也有注意到我們賴世保委員也特別提到了也就是高端的合約能不能公開那麼因為我們現在的說法是因為這是廠商要求那麼廠商沒有同意那可能包含院長跟我們那個王必勝署長可能講法不一樣說要股東會董事會好不管"},{"start":10008.855,"end":10018.902,"text":"我們政府的說法是因為這是要看高端就是廠商願不願意同意但是在110年5月30號"},{"start":10025.006,"end":10047.964,"text":"因為高端是上櫃公司他發表重訊提到說有關於限制條款是依採購機關要求合約其他細節不予公開剛才賴世寶委員有特別問到這件事情對不對那薛部長的回答是說他要怎麼講他也沒有問過我們政府所以部長我請問他這個說法是正確的還是錯誤的"},{"start":10053.206,"end":10054.806,"text":"所以部長很明確的告訴我們這個重訊的訊息是錯誤的是不是"},{"start":10078.95,"end":10082.273,"text":"請教因為我剛特別提到他的重訓時間是民國110年5月30號已經長達兩年半這樣錯誤的訊息請問一下"},{"start":10095.046,"end":10111.502,"text":"我們的衛福部是否曾經要求他更動或者曾經去告他說你這個根本是錯誤的訊息衛福部有沒有做這些事我們在那個之後就發文給這個高端請他來公開合約"},{"start":10112.683,"end":10114.284,"text":"所以我要問一件事來 部長"},{"start":10134.977,"end":10153.379,"text":"既然這個訊息是錯誤的為什麼衛福部在這麼長的時間裡面沒有去告高端你都去告立委了你為什麼不告高端不敢告嗎我為什麼要去告高端因為那個不是我們的權責"},{"start":10154.72,"end":10171.442,"text":"這個就是錯誤訊息啊他錯誤訊息有主管機關可以去處理好來來來為什麼把金管會主委找來了所以你把你不敢告高端現在請那個主管機關那請問一下我們金管會主委這樣錯誤訊息我們有去處罰他嗎有去處分他嗎"},{"start":10172.415,"end":10177.259,"text":"那所以我今天在這個質詢裡面衛福部長說這個是錯誤的但是衛福部不去告他金管會會處理嗎當時並沒有特別人指出當時所以貴買中心對我現在直接說那現在金管會會立刻去處理嗎讓證交所去罰他"},{"start":10201.786,"end":10202.106,"text":"部長為什麼要請您上來?"},{"start":10229.554,"end":10254.347,"text":"我就認為在高端的合約已經引起這麼嚴重的爭議那麼大家舉國都在覺得說為什麼不公開連賴清德現在我們的副總統我們的民進黨的總統候選人都說他覺得應該公開啊可是現在呢我們整個行政院把賴副總統的話當成空氣一樣他現在從講完今天已經第10天了"},{"start":10255.367,"end":10277.961,"text":"到現在為止也沒有公開我們開臨時會還是不公開那我就覺得非常不解我們到底在怕高端什麼連這樣違反這個違反根本是錯誤而且損害政府威信的訊息也沒有人在處理所以部長你在這邊我直接的要求我們法務部去調查今天衛福部有沒有獨職"},{"start":10279.122,"end":10280.443,"text":"王國元你要不要去告"},{"start":10305.377,"end":10318.294,"text":"這不是法務部的職責對於有沒有涉及刑事責任是由檢調機關他們來負責所以法務部是負責行政業務過去我知道檢查機關也曾經調查過"},{"start":10320.717,"end":10323.238,"text":"相關的案件有63件之多"},{"start":10337.281,"end":10357.792,"text":"我真的覺得很奇怪我們政府為什麼對高端這樣的莫可奈何到底在怕高端什麼所以我剛剛講我們學院院部長都敢告立委為什麼不告高端我是你我立刻告高端亂講話怎麼說是我不讓你公開明明是你高端說不能公開好再來看一下時間"},{"start":10361.357,"end":10383.031,"text":"高端昨天也又發布訟訊 裡面畢仁在下我也在裡面他說他要提告我提告我跟另外三位候選人說談到有股東名冊的問題我時間有限 我今天就不請經濟部長上來我覺得真的笑死人"},{"start":10384.284,"end":10400.399,"text":"你們不要天天怕高端 高端只會爛速股東名冊去查一下銀行法銀行法裡面210條清清楚楚的告訴你股東名冊可以怎麼取得我想搞不好蔡部長是清楚的"},{"start":10401.419,"end":10424.985,"text":"所以對於高端這樣不敢公開只會濫訴的一家公司然後呢我們對他予取予求所以我就在想你高端到底是何方神聖那我想請問一下我們陳部長部長你當時在2016年的時候您有跟蔡英文總統搭檔那時候你是副總統候選人"},{"start":10426.405,"end":10447.997,"text":"您有收受過高端或高端股東或高端他們之前的前公司前身等等的政治獻金嗎有嗎沒有啊我根本我只是參加高端的臨床實驗而已你沒有嘛對不對沒有我在這邊也幫你背書我查過了您沒有但是啊來看一下我剛才講"},{"start":10452.708,"end":10474.212,"text":"高端的股東名冊並不難取得根據相關的法律是可以取得這個是之前侯漢廷議員所公布的相關的高端股東的捐款這個大概就是所有政治人物所以我剛才說我幫陳建仁院長也背書我們查過了"},{"start":10478.734,"end":10498.613,"text":"當時2016年您參加副總統是候選人那一次你們沒有接受過高端的任何的政治獻金但是在2020年蔡英文總統賴清德副總統就有接受到高端股東的政治捐獻可以看看這裡面洋洋灑灑"},{"start":10500.434,"end":10523.136,"text":"這裡面包含縣市長 包含立法委員 包含議員高端股東有4萬多人你這4萬多人你再怎麼去找還是找到有一些願意做政治獻金的人你這樣單挑高端股東這樣來講我覺得是不公平這是剛才部長跟你咬耳朵我要講的是我不解的是為什麼今天我們都召開臨時會了"},{"start":10524.938,"end":10546.711,"text":"召開臨時會是正確的雖然馬上過幾天確實就有大選但是在立法院召開臨時會這本來就是一個民主國家民主政治的程序然後我們所有的立法委員比如像邱太元委員他覺得他非常珍惜今天的質詢我看了也非常感動"},{"start":10547.711,"end":10548.211,"text":"我可以回答嗎"},{"start":10568.493,"end":10568.893,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10585.607,"end":10587.928,"text":"政府誠信很重要但是政府的威信也很重要我剛才特別提"},{"start":10611.86,"end":10628.445,"text":"所以政府的微信我們有跟高端講我跟高端講希望高端能夠來公開沒有怕高端啦這家公司沒有怕他為什麼要讓他予取予求沒有讓他予取予求你如果這樣講我就你如果這樣兇我就不同意了"},{"start":10628.925,"end":10629.105,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":10649.852,"end":10664.947,"text":"法務部長我想請教一下在之前我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦副院長他有涉及他就是影射他的就是帶女人開房間的這個影片外流我們也在司法法治委員會裡面討論過我想請問這個案子結案了嗎"},{"start":10668.987,"end":10694.686,"text":"應該還沒有 因為在檢察機關偵查中是 它是偵查中案件 對不對對那但是呢鄭文燦那個影片後來刑事局他有他的整個的檢驗結果說是不是身為製作 對不對有沒有公布還包括調查局也有他做鑑定所以他們兩個偵查單位他們也是把成果有報到地檢署"},{"start":10695.216,"end":10700.04,"text":"但無論如何鄭文燦他的影片他的檢驗結果是公布了剛才部長也說這是偵查中案件同樣的"},{"start":10725.299,"end":10745.582,"text":"今天我們立委羅智政委員他的涉及性愛影片現在事實上調查局已經完成了檢驗可是呢地檢署調查局說這是偵查中案件不能公布那為什麼同樣鄭文燦要公布然後羅智政不公布"},{"start":10747.137,"end":10756.932,"text":"這是什麼標準?都沒有公布,都沒有正式的對外公布,如果在檢察官的偵查當中,檢察官他會受到偵查不公開的檢查"},{"start":10760.16,"end":10784.785,"text":"鄭文燦自己都公布了他自己都公布了所以我要講的是所以我一直在講說國家有國家的制度所以如果今天鄭文燦的影片他也是偵查中案件他可以公布為什麼羅志政的影片要以說偵查中案件不公開那這個就有隱瞞的問題"},{"start":10815.177,"end":10816.918,"text":"謝謝王委員 接下來請蔡委員試應質詢"},{"start":10835.717,"end":10862.792,"text":"感謝院長能不能請我們陳建仁陳院長就備訓台謝謝院長請蔡委員午安院長好我剛才聽了這個我們國民黨委員的質詢尤其最後一段非常的無裡頭啦在問關於這個AV的事情我跟院長講一下最近我聽到一個笑話跟我講說現在只要在台灣打AV後面連結就是國民黨"},{"start":10863.937,"end":10890.92,"text":"為什麼因為大家會想到說原來上國民黨網站就可以看到關於AV的很多相關資訊我認為說選舉剩下沒有幾天的時間任何一個政黨他應該是要就他的國家政策提出藍圖出來而不是在講什麼AV的事情所以我覺得真的是這是華天下之大績啦好那今天的重點是在於我們整個高端解密的相關的問題我想先請教一下院長我的第一個問題就是說"},{"start":10892.469,"end":10893.931,"text":"臺灣跟哪幾家公司簽訂了疫苗採購合約?"},{"start":10908.274,"end":10916.18,"text":"臨亞有沒有簽訂臨亞當時是因為他有參加臨床試驗所以應該也有嘛對不對也有簽但是那個簽的就是補助他的臨床試驗到臨床試驗而起失敗部長在旁邊我想請教一下您當時擔任的職位是市長嗎政務市長市長來"},{"start":10937.737,"end":10946.322,"text":"政府次長我想請教一下這幾家簽訂合約的公司對不對齁都有沒有簽所謂的保密條款有都有有為什麼"},{"start":10947.162,"end":10949.403,"text":"所以其實大多數跟我們政府簽訂的疫苗採購的合約商"},{"start":10972.645,"end":10988.078,"text":"基於剛才部長講的幾個原則第一個是整個生產的配方第二個就是生產提供交貨的數量及交貨的流程我想請教一下部長就你的專業來判斷為什麼這幾件事情要把它保密起來"},{"start":10989.429,"end":11008.073,"text":"因為這些東西如果洩漏出去的話第一個就是會妨礙他公司在跟其他國家簽的那個價格等等這些的價格或者是採購的速度嘛 時程嘛 對不對會影響到 所以"},{"start":11009.335,"end":11031.741,"text":"如果他洩露出去的話 比方說他跟我們的價格是一個那跟越南的價格是一個 這就互相去做比較那他們公司會受到一些壓力對 或者是說每個地方不同的價格 但是也有不同的交貨的時程那這些事情其實在當下 在做判斷的時間其實是非常短暫的"},{"start":11033.441,"end":11054.309,"text":"當時我記得部長或者我們行政院的團隊在跟相關單位在做或者之前陳時中陳部長在做談判的過程當中可能你可能只有一兩天的考慮時間你如果不談廠商可能就下單給別的國家別的國家可能就去更好的價格去談了而且在這過程當中我們對於其他國家採購疫苗的價格能夠窒息嗎"},{"start":11056.312,"end":11081.413,"text":"你會知道嗎?其實也困難嘛,我們完全不知道委員我也跟你報告一下啦實際上是這樣這個疫苗的價格是完全要看他什麼時候採購比如說我要是first prioritytop priority去採購當然我的價格就要高嘛等我到大量量產的時候的採購當然就會低而且這些廠商也都會考慮到不同的國家的需要性按照他的"},{"start":11081.874,"end":11082.154,"text":"主席"},{"start":11098.996,"end":11100.557,"text":"這完全是莫名其妙的一件事情"},{"start":11128.894,"end":11144.097,"text":"好那剛才部長跟院長講得清楚這些相關的合約都有保密的條款那能不能請我們部長或院長說明一下這些保密條款分別是幾年我講大家民眾非常關心的啦我一個問你就告訴我就好"},{"start":11145.148,"end":11163.518,"text":"第一個大家最關心的就是高端的合約是保密條款幾年5年5年是從2020年還是2021年開始算最後交貨最後交貨5年所以大概就是去年往後去年再往後算在2027年左右吧是不是還是2028差不多在110 116年116年就是2027年"},{"start":11166.838,"end":11195.587,"text":"這是第一個是高端五年嘛好那AZ的話幾年AZ的話也是五年AZ也是五年齁算一樣的話交貨最後一天開始算五年嘛好那另外就是莫德納莫德納幾年莫德納他不同意解密所以莫德納不同意解密所以五年六年後也是不能夠解密就對了對好那另外就是BNT勒BNT十年BNT十年那我就很奇怪了為什麼在野黨沒有來質疑BNT啊"},{"start":11200.284,"end":11215.47,"text":"這幾個東西的採購我不曉得能不能講單價最貴的是誰單價最貴的就是比高端貴的大概就是莫德納、BNT這兩個都更貴那怎麼沒有人質疑說BNT這麼貴為什麼政府沒有跟他砍價"},{"start":11216.929,"end":11244.044,"text":"感覺好像這些質疑的人好像沒有人提這個質疑是不是那些人那些人可能跟BNT有勾結囉是不是這個樣子我不知道啊如果要質疑的話我也會質疑啊當時有些人在有當時有些人在push BNT說BNT很好是不是他們是買BNT的股票BNT股票輝瑞也是可以買啊美國的股票就可以買啦那這樣我是不是可以來質疑說請法務部來調查一下台灣有哪一些人去買了輝瑞的股票"},{"start":11245.767,"end":11268.967,"text":"這個邏輯不同吧 部長對 沒有錯那當時在預定要買莫德納等這些AZ的時候的話我們在編列預算的時候都是用一計700塊去編列預算的所以那個700塊的原流是這裡但是後來買到的價格當然就不一樣因為每個廠商提供的"},{"start":11269.768,"end":11285.673,"text":"致詢或者他告訴他的研發成本或者不然就排隊等就像說等到現在買我想一季不用70塊就是這個差別所以我想這第一個要讓國人知道就是說在那個非常短暫的時間點做一個重要的政府官員在做決策是非常困難的"},{"start":11287.287,"end":11306.998,"text":"怎麼樣盡量能夠保衛住國人的健康然後做這樣的決策在預算的可行範圍內我老實講用現在的角度來看那個時間點我覺得是非常苛責沒有道理所以我剛才才會跟部長院長說如果要會講我也會講說現在買更便宜但現在沒有人需要好但是另外我有第二個問題要來請教一下院長跟部長我們的國家隊的問題院長跟部長1922已經停掉了"},{"start":11315.35,"end":11316.591,"text":"對阿我知道是結束所以現在多少人接電話"},{"start":11343.715,"end":11354.062,"text":"如果這樣我請教一下,你們說還留著,我知道是沒有啦就說邊人很少了啦齁我為什麼問這件事情的原因是因為我想請教一下院長跟部長齁最近疫情是不是又起來了"},{"start":11355.026,"end":11355.506,"text":"那我想請教一下院長"},{"start":11383.758,"end":11390.57,"text":"J1在台灣目前有沒有發現案例?那這些案例應該都不是本土還是境外移入的?"},{"start":11397.493,"end":11399.074,"text":"有些國家的疫情似乎又升溫的現象"},{"start":11421.73,"end":11444.672,"text":"這樣的生活現象對於這些國家來台灣的飛機我想請問一下院長有沒有考慮要升高他的防疫檢疫的等級我們目前的話也是知道哪一些國家呢他的疫情的狀況比較嚴重所以呢疾病管制署呢已經針對著這些特定的國家呢進來的時候呢就會加強的一個體溫的測量還有加強這一個症狀的"},{"start":11445.493,"end":11445.513,"text":"臨時委員："},{"start":11466.55,"end":11470.232,"text":"因為剛才部長跟院長提到說有新採購了XBB的疫苗對不對對已經開始打了沒有有已經開始打自費還是公費"},{"start":11497.412,"end":11498.473,"text":"我會建議一下院長跟部長在機場設"},{"start":11526.946,"end":11545.262,"text":"為什麼我們出國的人通常在飛機場要等一到兩個小時以上對不對有那個時間當天就設一個疫苗站那邊很多人都會跑去打疫苗比他跑去醫院打我覺得更方便這第一個第二件事情出國回來進來台灣的人你跟他講可以先打一下疫苗"},{"start":11546.508,"end":11574.849,"text":"我覺得這兩件事情可以給院長跟部長考慮一下擴大我們的施打範圍跟施打率我覺得講這件事情比原比講那個什麼該國民黨開記者會AB的記者會來得更重要才對好那但是在這邊我還是要拜託一下我們的院長跟部長剛才我提到的1922的防疫專線以及第二件事情地方基層醫療院所因為這件事情執行業務衍生的費用我要拜託院長跟部長我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":11576.807,"end":11600.576,"text":"過去這兩年的過程當中我們看到1922的專線確實發揮了穩定人心的一個重要性那我也遇到打電話有去打電話向行政院或衛福在談的事情的人他有聊到另外一個重要議題就是說他覺得好像行政院本身就沒有一個專屬的這樣的一個客服的電話地方政府有1999但中央政府沒有"},{"start":11601.92,"end":11620.144,"text":"中央政府沒有所以我知道說當時在1922打這件事有很多人關於政府的一些相關的議題也都透過1922詢問比如說紓困等等的內容等等為什麼呢因為我遇到這些人有跟我講說他們透過1922詢問的內容的準確度比他們問1999地方政府來得更準"},{"start":11621.209,"end":11641.284,"text":"因為很多地方政府也搞不清楚狀況就跟他說你可能要問中央什麼都推給中央就對了然後好的就說是他的不懂的說推給中央就說中央宣導的不大夠我們也不知道你要問中央政府每次都跟地方政府這樣講我認為這個是非常不公平的一件事情但我認為沒關係中央政府我們就扛起來"},{"start":11644.611,"end":11663.826,"text":"這就是我們跟他們不一樣的地方所以我建議1922這樣的一個系統維持是不是行政院把它檢討一下未來就作為常設性中央政府的一個組織單位關於紓困疫苗等等只要中政府管的事情的內容我覺得都可以能夠讓民眾打電話來問讓他們來了解"},{"start":11665.765,"end":11683.522,"text":"我相信對於解決民間的很多問題民眾的質疑會很有幫助啦否則部長部長我們這邊講了老半天如果看的人只有一萬人看到可能還有另外的好幾百萬人沒有看到啊他還是會同樣的問題繼續來詢問那他如果看到網路上不確實的言論他就以為那是真的啊我們剛剛說不用"},{"start":11684.284,"end":11702.574,"text":"有問題打1922問我們的行政院最準啊所以我認為這是一個非常好一個所謂解釋疑慮的一個管道像剛才我們部長提到的每個合約都有保密期限高端最短欸他們為什麼不要質疑BNT啊我也覺得很奇怪為什麼不要質疑莫德納"},{"start":11703.773,"end":11731.583,"text":"所以我的意思就是說這些事情其實就是要講給民眾知道所以我在這邊拜託一下院長我第二個問題就是說我們的1922專線還有第二個就是醫療基層醫療他們的相關的一個工作的費用我覺得要來增加了因為這幾年我們可以看得到全球化的關係整個醫療或者疫情或者病毒的蔓延是非常跨國的而且我們事實上有時候看不到啊看不到這些疫苗"},{"start":11732.079,"end":11749.946,"text":"等到真的已經發生事情的時候都是透過我們的醫療單位來做協力來處理所以部長我建議就是說這件事情要把它列為非常重要的重點我相信醫師公會跟護理師公會也有跟還有藥師公會也有跟部長提過這個事情好不好"},{"start":11773.439,"end":11774.379,"text":"謝謝蔡委員接下來請吳委員施懷質詢"},{"start":11796.297,"end":11806.899,"text":"高端和衛福部互相踢皮球民眾跟媒體質疑的是到底誰不想公開"},{"start":11827.264,"end":11855.405,"text":"那麼薛部長你可以上來但是不要回答因為你剛才已經回答兩次你可以上台你說這是高端自己公司的公布與事實不符那麼媒體跟社會大眾心中自有評論你已經回答兩次兩個委員的質詢我要問的是既然它不是事實那就影響政府的威信"},{"start":11856.581,"end":11884.993,"text":"他是一個假訊息或者你們最喜歡用的是一個認知作戰那請問從5月20號5月30號公告到一年半以後面臨縣市長選舉了你們在111年的11月3號發了個函問他可否公布"},{"start":11887.335,"end":11897.037,"text":"你們跟高端之間需要用公文來來去去沒有聯絡沒有電話沒有人可以接觸嗎3號發了文他不理你"},{"start":11899.891,"end":11922.596,"text":"22號再發個文說再次詢問你們貴公司可否公開時隔一年半如果他是假的他說的是主管機關不同意如果是假的一年半不處理發兩個文以後我想請問部長一件事選舉前做這個動作縣市長選舉前"},{"start":11925.802,"end":11941.474,"text":"就是被質疑這是為了選情為了縣市長選舉操作那我現在問一個問題就好了你們在11月3號11月20號發兩次文給高端他有沒有回覆"},{"start":11950.434,"end":11962.364,"text":"政府威信何在他一家企業我告訴你我問你可以不可以你不行你回覆我不行依據什麼什麼行就行政府在幹什麼"},{"start":11963.966,"end":11991.286,"text":"這是政府的威信來 院長我們政府管不了一個企業嗎管不了一個公司嗎我想 委員你問得相當好我再重複一次實際上雙方簽訂契約的時候如果有簽訂了這一個保密的條款的時候那我們雙方都應該要來互相尊重你已經回答一個早上了保密條例 保密條款這些我沒有意見我問的是"},{"start":11992.335,"end":12015.501,"text":"我是政府你不過是一家企業我問你可不可以你要回覆我嗎你都不理你政府威信何在好我們再看我認為媒體質疑很多民眾質疑這是一個為了縣市長選舉的選舉操作當人家質疑你們的時候我們政府說我有發文給他是他沒有回答我"},{"start":12016.221,"end":12016.361,"text":"監察院"},{"start":12045.427,"end":12073.472,"text":"接著調查報告出來在時隔兩年了這個報告出來以後請問衛福部做了什麼事哪一個方面我們做很多事你做了很多事我們不知道我們是立法委員媒體不知道社會大眾不知道你做了什麼事所以委員在問的是哪一方面哪一方面就是講這個資訊不公開啊監察院的報告你沒看過嗎"},{"start":12075.129,"end":12100.078,"text":"你看過沒有嗎這個資訊不公開的部分的話就是合約的限制你又在談保密條款這個沒有錯因為政府跟一個民間的企業去簽了合約難道政府說我要用強力的公權力來違約嗎部長你等一下你不要講話我告訴你我不要再跟你談保密條款我們摘下來我在未還委員會第一第二會期我在那裡"},{"start":12101.175,"end":12125.063,"text":"我對這個事情非常清楚我們一再的要求你們那時候口風緊得不得了說什麼都是不可以不可以要怎麼樣怎麼樣好 到現在了110年5月30號高端這個出來了我們還在追照樣不理我們到了一年半以後你們發兩個文縣市長選舉了還剩幾天了"},{"start":12129.814,"end":12157.509,"text":"請他是否可以公開他不理你我現在才知道發兩個結論是他沒回覆你這是政府的威信嗎然後到現在我在外國委員會看過你們提供的資料那時候你還沒當部長塗黑的將近三分之二看的跟沒看一樣這是你們當初的心態"},{"start":12158.897,"end":12168.865,"text":"內清德總統候選人說應該要公開了整個態度批辯那我中間再問一個重要的問題政府權責的問題你這個約裡面到底有沒有除外條款部長你知不知道"},{"start":12189.716,"end":12210.451,"text":"除外條款指的是說什麼時候是可以揭露的嗎對在這一個好像是司法機關在調查的時候我們是可以揭露但是他有一些條件 有沒有除外條款我問有沒有有有那今天這個狀況"},{"start":12212.83,"end":12236.756,"text":"全民都在質疑社會大眾質疑媒體質疑在野黨所有的委員都在質疑有沒有弊案有沒有後面還有等下我問的錄音檔的問題那麼他就是符合除外條款沒有這個案子再等一下我們叫你回答是有可能我沒有說一定有可能有重大弊案"},{"start":12237.748,"end":12238.729,"text":"除外條款的定義是不是這樣"},{"start":12263.305,"end":12279.133,"text":"如果有例外的情形當然就可以來遵照辦理有可能有五重大五必要或者其他影響人民生命安全的這種可能就除外條款就必須生效就法律的定義是不是這樣子"},{"start":12280.27,"end":12305.72,"text":"那我們要看契約還有來比照相關的規定我告訴你全民的認識是這樣有可能發生除外條款生效就拿出來公開現在我不跟你追這個除外條款如果要公開的時候要應用它要公開的時候我們要預先通知當然它有一定的行政程序院長你放心我在公部門40多年"},{"start":12308.823,"end":12331.879,"text":"公布門執行任何事情要有一定的行政程序你剛才也講過我清楚但是我自己問的是有沒有除外條款薛部長說有我就問法務部長除外條款的定義是不是假如有這些可能發生除外條款就應該生效就可以引用除外條款來公開對不對我有沒有說錯"},{"start":12334.5,"end":12361.939,"text":"沒有錯錯但是還是要讓要有一個讓對方通知對方當然當然這是行政程序但是在我們整個對於這一個公開的合約的這件事情我們是覺得說如果能夠雙方能夠達成合意然後一起來公開那是最好但是如果沒有我們這一個局外條款就可以使用我告訴你的是到現在為止是政府對高端一籌莫展"},{"start":12362.634,"end":12391.307,"text":"什麼事情都是高端說的算我們要求發公文他不理我我不回答你奈何不了我現在我們看到的嘛一個早上你的回應除了民進黨級的委員拼命做球給你拼命罵在野黨之外其他人的質詢你都是這種回答所以不需要再說我現在說賴清德副總統現在的總統候選人說應該公開了10天了"},{"start":12392.432,"end":12393.112,"text":"這是他們說的 不是我說的"},{"start":12414.807,"end":12416.089,"text":"我不贊成這樣的講法這是不正確的消息"},{"start":12427.506,"end":12455.945,"text":"你不贊成我沒有意見你當然不贊成但是這是我告訴你這是媒體的反應這些人說的話但是11天了你們到底想不想公開想公開今天開臨時會差一點開不成開不成是因為簽名還沒有簽滿啊對你們想公開我跟委員講得很清楚我今天早上的報告講得很清楚賴副總統想公開政府也"},{"start":12457.056,"end":12458.256,"text":"當這個賴副總統一講了這個話之後薛部長你在上班時間到競選總部去有這張照片"},{"start":12487.396,"end":12505.064,"text":"這是媒體看的不是我講的啊他不是假新聞啊事由這個事你去看什麼人家就說你是政府的官員他是競選總部政務官不要說政務官了所有政府體系的人都應該在選舉中保持行政中立法務部長對不對"},{"start":12506.502,"end":12514.486,"text":"我們是去找柯建銘總召談今天要開臨時會的事件柯總召早上在這邊走來走去委員其實是沒有來要不然你直接問他就知道"},{"start":12533.823,"end":12562.233,"text":"所以實際上這個指鹿為馬不是指鹿為馬等一下 薛部長你跟柯總召兩個人講的話誰能證明我們今天要取信於民嘛那我告訴你的是在場還有一位洪森漢委員你去問他我不要去問他對啊 你又不確證你把這三個人叫出來你把這種東西污衊我我不是污衊你"},{"start":12562.913,"end":12567.517,"text":"我把網路的事情告訴你網路的笑話不是我講的說說這個政府官員去競選總部見這些重要幹部是去篡政"},{"start":12589.85,"end":12608.985,"text":"錯誤的網路錯了網路錯了網路錯網路錯沒關係 薛部長你必須用事實去證明你沒有做這些事有人做夢他有做夢的權利我沒有解夢的義務好 但是你有權利也有義務有責任證明"},{"start":12611.792,"end":12611.912,"text":"主席"},{"start":12626.663,"end":12632.449,"text":"國會黨說要開臨時會就是很緊急的事情所以大家趕快去那裡討論嘛我沒有這樣講我沒有講我這是網路說的我也沒有說你的人格有問題我都沒有說"},{"start":12646.044,"end":12651.754,"text":"委員這是我網路是錯的這是指路為矛的事情當時談的就是說會議院要開臨時會這件事情最後的時間我問一件事"},{"start":12660.017,"end":12679.086,"text":"我們在未還委員會的時候第一第二會期我們提了很多案針對高端的問題針對人民健康的問題針對有沒有圖利的問題我們提了10個案通通被民進黨封殺第一個我們要一個月內擴大採購WHO認證的疫苗4000萬劑提案被封殺我們人數表決不過"},{"start":12684.449,"end":12711.628,"text":"公開3加11完整的會議記錄沒有公開等下我講完嘛第三個國產高端疫苗的緊急使用授權審查我們要求我們的提案應該比照美國FDA全程直播公開也被封殺所以這個就是民進黨執政黨的態度我們讓全民來檢查讓媒體來看好不好委員要世界維生"},{"start":12730.029,"end":12736.922,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員報告宴會上午執行到此為止下午2點30分繼續專案報告就執行現在休息"},{"start":21618.479,"end":21632.304,"text":"報告委員會 現在繼續開會對行政院院長專案報告繼續質詢紅委員 孫漢志質詢以書面提出請行政院以書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報現在請由委員預覽質詢"},{"start":21644.641,"end":21646.944,"text":"謝謝院長 有請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":21654.912,"end":21657.553,"text":"保密條款的文字內容我等一下的看一下"},{"start":21685.345,"end":21686.246,"text":"保密條款的文字內容請"},{"start":21701.632,"end":21704.473,"text":"本合約所謂機密性資料具包括採購的單價、原物料價格等商業採購相關訊息取得的方式"},{"start":21725.253,"end":21735.187,"text":"包括不限於口頭、文字、書寫、錄音等等那機密性資料取得之日期不論其為本合約簽署日之前或之後均屬之"},{"start":21736.485,"end":21738.007,"text":"蔡總統拍了一部小電影還蠻好看的有"},{"start":21757.984,"end":21787.075,"text":"有看了嗎對那因為現在不是只有蔡總統在路上蔡總統還在錄音帶上所以我才會接下來要請教一下因為我們法務部其實在去年年底就已經講了說他依照這個他們最高檢就從去年的12月11日到今年1月5日子全權處理全國性重大假訊息案件而且會指派主任檢察官"},{"start":21788.082,"end":21802.434,"text":"與檢察官負責偵辦,針對影響選舉的假訊息,執法部門、法務部、地檢署、調查局,要立即澄清,迅速下架,溯源追查主權。"},{"start":21811.823,"end":21819.571,"text":"蔡總統的小電影叫《在路上》可是現在變成《在路應帶上》因為最近我們看到我們"},{"start":21820.868,"end":21843.056,"text":"的同事羅智政委員：他被公布的有各種不同的不同的這個資料影音資料有A片的也有裡面就是影射可能是跟蔡總統的對話這些我覺得這個是知識體大知識體大不管是真是假"},{"start":21844.056,"end":21866.209,"text":"這不符合我剛剛念的你們在一開始的時候要有一個打假的假訊息的這個迅速偵辦中心的這個你們重要的意志不是嗎是沒錯吧對不對所以你就不可以說這個是個人隱私啦這是私德問題這已經不是因為"},{"start":21868.306,"end":21875.318,"text":"雖然我跟蔡總統不屬於同一個黨派但是他是我的國家元首"},{"start":21876.021,"end":21900.088,"text":"我覺得當它被人家錄音我現在還搞不清楚我還搞不清楚這個錄音帶的內容的真假等等的可是因為裡面有一些內容我知道這也是我們在國防外交委員會常常聽到比如說羅志政委員有時候也會談起的但是我會擔心啊羅志政委員他是當過國防外交委員會的"},{"start":21902.034,"end":21908.999,"text":"這件事情當然是相當的重要所以我今天早上已經講得很清楚這一件事情的話我們完全支持我們檢調單位要來的積極查辦"},{"start":21930.086,"end":21946.617,"text":"並且很快的來掌握相關的這個報導那與殷黨的內容是不是有透露身為或者涉及這個借選都要由鑑識機關來進行相關的鑑識那這個這件事情是相當的重要我相信部長也有這樣的一個看法"},{"start":21947.376,"end":21968.739,"text":"對 我是建議絕對不可以就是因為我們說就像破唱盤一樣跳針一樣說中共借選你用一個中共借選你就遮掩掉很多我們政府該作為而不作為我們自己不認真辦案這個是我再怎麼樣我都無法忍受的沒有 我覺得他們沒有不認真辦案我是支持他們要"},{"start":21969.246,"end":21969.446,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":21987.601,"end":22016.393,"text":"這件事情對他們是謠言的話我們趕快把千萬不要像過去吳敦義的這個錄音帶風波等到這個查出來之後都說這個是假的時候他都已經落選都已經變成制定的現實現在的這個身為的做法相當的多五發八門所以在鑑識的工作上我們也會積極來努力那更重要的就是"},{"start":22016.909,"end":22034.456,"text":"我們在打造這個行動方案行動綱領1.5的時候有構置了一些儀器設備能夠做更精準的這樣的一個鑑識的工作那還有追查這個訊息來源所以這個部分我相信"},{"start":22034.875,"end":22059.993,"text":"我們檢調單位還有這個新市警察局也會來好好的來偵辦所以剛剛院長講到重點身為的技術雖然不斷升高可是倒高一尺磨高一丈但是我們希望現在是磨高一尺我們倒要高好幾丈才可以所以一定要支持包括我們第一線的檢調警都要有足夠的工具"},{"start":22060.373,"end":22060.833,"text":"委員長 部長 支持第一線員警"},{"start":22088.012,"end":22113.315,"text":"有責任的人也要有權利而不要因為有太多政治的考量現在因為這個選舉期間暫時不要有的時候就是要神速我們就是很快的把這個事情他是假訊息馬上公布的話至少不會繼續擴大否則其實我的同事羅志正我覺得他現在也一定很頭痛因為哇"},{"start":22114.556,"end":22134.807,"text":"一下子錄音帶一下子A片然後現在聽說又有20支高清的袋子我覺得對他來講這我們應該減掉要勇敢的負起責任而且我要在這裡跟委員報告就是說我們這個建設的這個設備基本上在很多媒體上都錯誤報導說我們打造1.5的行動綱領"},{"start":22137.928,"end":22142.073,"text":"臨北郝游案件及黨工一千個帳號我們都能夠這樣查出來所以我們會積極來偵辦這件事情查個水落石出"},{"start":22156.067,"end":22157.808,"text":"我們也要請院長跟部長要承諾"},{"start":22170.928,"end":22170.948,"text":"好"},{"start":22199.366,"end":22217.368,"text":"高端是全民買單立委是國防外交委員會包括趙天寧委員的那個小三豐富也是一樣的政府跟司法單位不可以明目張膽的去護短這個我是完全同意的我們完全沒有護短而且我在這裡在跟委員報告"},{"start":22218.369,"end":22228.713,"text":"政府的誠信很重要政府的威信很重要但是政府威信的建立不是像在威權獨裁國家那樣子的壓迫軍機各個企業這樣的話沒有辦法政府有簽約就要維持自己的誠信"},{"start":22237.997,"end":22254.492,"text":"院長我300%同意我們一定要有捍衛我們民主法治的這樣的決心跟能力但是我們絕對不可以用中國界選為藉口然後進行司法界選之時中國有沒有界選的話還需要偵查啦"},{"start":22257.333,"end":22278.155,"text":"還要去偵查當然啦但是有先偵查的就很奇怪啦因為所有的身為的製造我們如果查到這個來源也許是從境外進來的那當然就要跟就像我剛才講的那個林北好遊就是這樣查到境外去再查回來的還有那個黨工的一千個帳號也是這樣查出來的"},{"start":22278.615,"end":22279.035,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22296.149,"end":22296.81,"text":"我們是一定勿忘勿重"},{"start":22319.13,"end":22322.413,"text":"但是 但是 所有的所有的里長一回來只要到中國大陸回來的話也未免害也未免"},{"start":22340.532,"end":22341.013,"text":"本席即將卸任"},{"start":22359.036,"end":22359.416,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":22380.877,"end":22381.317,"text":"因為預估了"},{"start":22407.893,"end":22408.593,"text":"最後的精算"},{"start":22425.319,"end":22426.321,"text":"我們已經有公布了 有公布了相關單位可以參考"},{"start":22444.104,"end":22446.347,"text":"沒有遠高於大概0.2個百分點"},{"start":22459.09,"end":22459.45,"text":"一年兩點五"},{"start":22480.486,"end":22480.546,"text":"主席"},{"start":22503.412,"end":22526.563,"text":"法律不是這樣寫的啦法律沒有分年齡GPI在那個原來的法律裡面是寫說所以我們可以修法嘛我們可以修法因為你退休退休期就是屬於高竟然要修嘛因為本席本來也希望說你們能夠稍微更敏感一點這些都是我們當時在在這個立法院裡面"},{"start":22527.223,"end":22544.853,"text":"這是年改本來就有的法 修的法來照顧退休的軍公教人員最後當然我時間已經快要用完我還是很關心在死刑存廢上的這些爭論因為我們看到了新北的那個國中生"},{"start":22545.453,"end":22559.351,"text":"他在被狂砍十幾刀之後他那天第一天他送到醫院就輸血就是6萬CC我希望我們的少年事件處理法一定要有配套措施要讓孩子們能夠在"},{"start":22574.673,"end":22579.216,"text":"好 謝謝余委員接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢謝謝院長有請我們行政院陳建仁陳院長院長請我們衛福部我們薛部長莊委員午安院長午安我想今天這個議題就是關於整個"},{"start":22604.168,"end":22630.268,"text":"今天整個一個臨時會我有很大的一個感慨這個其實在針對我們在相同的地方院會針對整個疫苗專案報告跟指定議題的報告就有三次三次委員會這個我相信薛副長你也最清楚你們就有六次財政委員會六次是釣魚小組"},{"start":22631.889,"end":22639.335,"text":"財政委員會疫苗專報2次經濟委員會1次國安委員會關於疫苗的專報就12次很感激在2022年11月26日九合一的大選到現在2月沒有人要說這個選舉剩4、5天"},{"start":22660.766,"end":22677.701,"text":"這個很明顯就完全就是一個政治上的一個攻防但是本席還是認為說這個議題還是讓院長來講還是最適合因為院長畢竟是公衛出身其實在台灣經過這一場百年大議"},{"start":22678.769,"end":22705.7,"text":"那大家全體上下國人同胞有政府部門帶領那大家共同在團結在抗議我相信大家都盡心盡力的到了這個整個後疫情時代今天排這一場我還特別去問了媒體的朋友說你聽到現在你會覺得怎麼樣四個字冷飯熱炒炒得起來炒不起來不知道但是我要來救教院長就是說"},{"start":22707.688,"end":22736.401,"text":"我的好朋友秋選這間在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題就是說高端疫苗到底有沒有這個整個絕標的一個公告這樣的一個問題我聽了以後我會覺得院長必須要再澄清因為我擔心外面會有所誤解因為按照整個政府的一個採購法裡面涉及到整個機密採購的部分那個到未必會有一定要"},{"start":22737.645,"end":22758.861,"text":"這個決標的一個問題那是不是我很擔心就是說其他的疫苗到底有沒有決標上的公告那還有這早上院長這樣回答是口誤還是幕僚提供的資訊有錯誤的一個地方是不是請我們薛部長這個地方你來再做一個澄清好不好"},{"start":22760.232,"end":22776.08,"text":"謝謝委員這部分應該更精確來講開標、決標都按照程序來決標之後本來我們就是要把資料上傳到工程會的網站"},{"start":22778.325,"end":22804.897,"text":"但是根據政府採購法第61條跟它的施行細則第84條如果涉及到商業機密的這種機密採購的話那我們可以不公告機關可以不公告但是必須要將未刊登的這個絕標的資料傳到仍然要傳到工程會的這個資料庫裡面去"},{"start":22806.94,"end":22807.64,"text":"本席本身學法"},{"start":22834.96,"end":22855.038,"text":"那大家一直在談到說整個高端這個疫苗啊什麼這個整個契約啊要封存30年我聽到這個網絡都在說這個我聽到整個台港一台舖都兩粒大你知道嗎你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在台灣這樣的一個假訊期這樣蔓延以後啊機非到最後會成事啊所以不對"},{"start":22855.899,"end":22857.44,"text":"根據雙方的保密協定7月裏面的保密協定是5年"},{"start":22879.229,"end":22881.049,"text":"所以高端採購這樣的一個契約說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息 錯的訊息所以"},{"start":22905.95,"end":22926.337,"text":"如果說其他的疫苗的一個採購 你說AZ人不用保密 或是NOVAX不用保密 BNT不用保密 只有高端來保密 這有鬼囉 這我看來就有鬼囉但是如果其他 我就要請教的 BNT是幾年 BNT的話是10年"},{"start":22927.227,"end":22928.368,"text":"當初整個緊急授權EUA"},{"start":22957.287,"end":22973.258,"text":"你現在跟你說那些心渣的委員齁 那不記名在我來看 以現在來看當年的話如果說我是那個委員的話 我也會怕我若跟你投反對 國內需要疫苗 我壓力會大 等於說我在阻擋疫苗我若跟你投贊成 人家又會跟我說我是不是在圖利財團"},{"start":22987.41,"end":22997.428,"text":"這個我倒覺得反而也很麻煩在當時的一個時空背景之下那這一些委員 你說你們當初採取的不記名到底補定 到底再考量一下"},{"start":22998.406,"end":23018.535,"text":"如同剛剛委員所提到的因為現在網路非常的發達所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話那的確會造成一些困擾但是我們所有的這個會議的資料我們都已經公開只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已"},{"start":23019.224,"end":23044.732,"text":"所以說當初你們就是說才不記名也有他特殊的一個考量這一些時空因素存在啦我要請法務部長蔡部長也請上來一下就是說向法務部部長請回啦那我一直在想說整個高端裡面我相信很多在黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪圖"},{"start":23048.735,"end":23071.222,"text":"請問部長就是說,我們現在查高端,大家去自己檢紀,我們檢方就馬上去做一個查辦,現在有幾件是不起訴的?63件,就已經都查清楚了,沒有不法的情勢。我跟部長報告,今天你做這個案子,如果讓你重新再回到你以前的一個專業的話,你老闆你也不要再燒了。"},{"start":23073.695,"end":23083.698,"text":"今天那個要檢舉啦我今天叫蔡英文啦明天叫蘇貞昌啦再來我叫程時中啦我來叫程建仁院長我來叫薛瑞仁稅務長大家給他創造的補助看到的還是憑感覺的你要怎麼辦?跟委員報告齁阿伯今年一月的時候還有人提出三件所以這三件又默契要辦中間啦所以"},{"start":23101.594,"end":23129.203,"text":"雖然是牽結啦但是牽結是沒有確定力的你如果說懷疑還有證據有涉嫌犯罪可以再提出來那當然有新事實新事證的話司法機關本來就是誤法誤網誤眾這個案子到現在來看的話我反而會認為說國人對有任何貪圖的一個疑慮的話他本來就是希望我們司法機關來做一個查辦可是呢"},{"start":23130.6,"end":23158.072,"text":"碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件的話我相信大多數人民政委會認為說他再來啊 又因為選舉再來啊這個看了大家也都會很討厭讓我們等個司法機關齁你整天在那裡沒人要死去啦沒人要死去啦但是我在這個地方也要求啦部長如果有任何新事證的話我相信大家在國會裡面啊碰到高端幾乎是被在野黨打的打臭掉啦但是呢"},{"start":23160.097,"end":23185.12,"text":"你說這個案﹖到最後是不是有任何人去涉案的話﹖或者高端的高層的話﹖我要求我們司法機關也必須要勿妄勿縱當然一定會的依法辦事嘛﹖如果有事實﹖有證據來證明﹖那我們當然依法處理是啦暖宿的情形不是只有高端而已很少的啦動不動就告官員瀆職圖利"},{"start":23187.247,"end":23202.708,"text":"我們檢察官大概要花很多的時間都在處理這些案子沒辦法臺灣是一個高度的一個民主的一個社會民眾稍微我記得我以前在當臺北市議員的時候"},{"start":23204.332,"end":23204.712,"text":"蔡部長請回我繼續要來請教院長就是說"},{"start":23232.498,"end":23260.982,"text":"今天既然是高端大家在做這個臨時會大家一直在講說我記得當初在批評高端的時候你看當初也講說這高端哪乎阿水甚至什麼高端跑下去都中無效甚至於講說磨柴害命我要在這個地方我要特別感謝院長因為我前幾天我自己的父親或是院長親自到我家裡面"},{"start":23262.503,"end":23289.907,"text":"我記得我當初我的父親今年90歲當初疫情來的時候大家都打AZ被人打下去後發燒被人打下去後都很難過爸爸等到第1期也去打AZ你再叫他打第1期他安卓打他就不去打他就打疫苗他不來我就是都不來"},{"start":23291.206,"end":23315.503,"text":"我非常感謝就是說其實後來總統還有院長您還有我們部會的所長去帶頭我也不知道說那個主流好不好我也都不知道我的想法是說成見人大人都叫你大人哥你就有公衛背景我們信賴你你打鬧我再找我老伯去我老伯英語這樣我你在拍"},{"start":23317.844,"end":23319.745,"text":"這部份有三點可以跟委員報告第一個就是這個高端"},{"start":23348.318,"end":23373.523,"text":"曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過三期臨床試驗而且在巴拉圭取得了EUA另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床三期的研究是在世界上三個國家來進行後來世界衛生組織也跟高端來"},{"start":23376.237,"end":23398.829,"text":"致有合約來用他的計轉﹖來給其他的國家﹖來可以使用高端的技術﹖那更重要的就是﹖最近一月份的時候﹖很有名的國際期刊﹖叫做新型傳染病的期刊﹖他就刊登了我們臺灣的﹖真實世界的數據﹖發現高端的效果﹖是和莫德納跟BNT是一樣的﹖比AZ還好﹖當然比這個科興跟國藥更好﹖"},{"start":23403.464,"end":23419.058,"text":"所以高端確實是一個很好的有國際認證的好的疫苗很可惜在當時因為大家不斷的抹黑像有些有副作用的人他不想去打反而沒有機會來打高端那這樣一個抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人"},{"start":23419.638,"end":23448.921,"text":"就放棄了高端那這就是很多的老人家沒有預防接種的理由嘛那這樣子的話就喪失了這個預防打高端的機會的話說老實話我們是相當的不捨啦這樣會使得這些老人家容易死於這個COVID-19而事實也顯示呢臺灣的老人家打COVID-19的比較少我們本來當時的想法高端如果副作用比較小又有這麼好的效果就應該讓怕副作用的人來接種可是沒有因為抹黑太厲害"},{"start":23449.481,"end":23477.362,"text":"所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣的隨便抹黑實際上造成台灣老人家不願意打高端疫苗這也是讓我很心痛的事情所以很顯然這個經過科學認證它不是撫水其實我們也希望國人同胞不要口水來尊重這個科學但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長"},{"start":23478.101,"end":23501.218,"text":"還有衛福部的就是說針對疫苗的一個不良的反應我相信這一些也很多委員的辦公室也受到民眾的懲罰就施打疫苗以後不是的狀況這些申請的案件因為我國疫苗接種受害的救濟申請的門檻我們算最低所以會特別多我們也希望"},{"start":23532.004,"end":23533.804,"text":"謝謝莊委員接下來請李委員得為質詢"},{"start":23566.252,"end":23569.053,"text":"好 謝謝游院長麻煩請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":23578.693,"end":23604.969,"text":"陳院長請問高端這個案子是不是中國借選有沒有中國借選我想高端有沒有中國借選當然沒有這跟中國沒有關係但是高端的疫苗確實有跟中國的疫苗來做比較在野黨包含本席在內有誰在這邊提出來要求買中國的國藥跟科興的疫苗你可以講出來嗎"},{"start":23606.863,"end":23618.151,"text":"這一個人數還不少啦那王定宇委員曾經有公布一個數據但是我是尊重我們大院的委員我在這裡就不公開說明啦但是跟大院委員我不會說但是最起碼有一個我可以說啦就是馬英九前總統就有說"},{"start":23631.201,"end":23632.302,"text":"實際上在美國國家衛生研究院"},{"start":23660.626,"end":23665.218,"text":"他在疫情的這一段期間他就有找出來了一段"},{"start":23665.954,"end":23669.915,"text":"因為高端的副董事長有說你講一句話有利人士講一句話比他們講10句還有用"},{"start":23694.221,"end":23709.119,"text":"所以其實您就是高端跟美國國衛院相關的牽線者對不對這個是很重要的一件事情當國家有需要發展一個好的疫苗這個疫苗也證明了是有效的時候我們就應該我們要說你不好"},{"start":23711.221,"end":23714.566,"text":"在高端這個案子裡面,您是關係人還是公正的第三方?"},{"start":23726.124,"end":23744.11,"text":"你今天在這邊幾乎就是高端的代言人高端的關心人啊因為你牽線的嘛不是嗎我是因為這兩個人認識所以你不是公正的第三方對不對我當然是公正的第三方我為什麼不是公正的第三方"},{"start":23744.91,"end":23770.772,"text":"我只是把這個好的這個GENETIC STRUCTURE去建議他來找台灣的學者我沒有什麼這個高端的副董事長在受訪裡面講得非常的清楚嘛沒有所以您不是公正的第三方我是公正的第三方而且你剛才講到的臨床試驗裡面或者是動物實驗所有的東西都登在世界上的一流的期刊"},{"start":23771.572,"end":23783.546,"text":"後來給EUA的免疫橋接是基本上由您來定的調嗎後來衛福部只可以委員你講的完全錯誤"},{"start":23786.489,"end":23786.77,"text":"政府採購了500萬劑"},{"start":23813.294,"end":23835.913,"text":"然後 報廢了將近170萬劑因為有人抹黑嘛 謾罵所以使得他沒有使用啊這就是我剛才講的 使得可以用的人沒有用所以院長 你是輕忽台灣人的智商囉有人抹黑 台灣人就選擇不要打高端是這個意思嗎你是看清2300萬台灣人嗎那個時候請問 那個時候請問這一個在野黨怎麼樣講中共的附和者怎麼樣來講高端"},{"start":23841.337,"end":23851.061,"text":"因為他們擔心高端疫苗的效果科興比國藥好啦那我們來看他的抗筆價嘛我可以請他暫停嗎我要講話好你講來 院長"},{"start":23862.429,"end":23881.337,"text":"高端的營收完全是靠民進黨政府衛福部的採購你去看他的報表因為他是上市公司他的營收又是靠政府給他採購新冠疫苗跟這一次代理韓國的流感疫苗"},{"start":23883.291,"end":23894.981,"text":"你去看他的裁判你不用贊成這是事實這不是假訊息好沒有關係重點是這一個所謂的疫苗國家隊最後是空歡喜一場虎頭蛇尾浪費人民的血汗錢最後失敗收場對不對所以來"},{"start":23907.831,"end":23935.126,"text":"院長你還要講最好疫苗然後什麼都是民進黨執政黨對都是人民的錯在野黨的錯抹黑所以民眾不願意打高端這就是你的結論所以我才說你也不用牽扯這麼多防疫人員降帥無能累死三軍哪三軍我跟你說就是辛苦的防疫人員跟我們2300萬的同胞"},{"start":23944.452,"end":23962.564,"text":"高端疫苗300萬劑 拯救了相近百萬的人口結果你抹煞他說它沒有效果而且全世界都說它是一個好疫苗所以你剛才講的是完全不科學沒有理性依據的說法"},{"start":23967.759,"end":23967.999,"text":"請問一下為什麼不執行"},{"start":23997.713,"end":24012.458,"text":"這難道不是今天公祭明天忘記嗎不是我想此行是不是要執行有一套規則在進行那這一套規則你沒有要讓保護部部長來說明那我就幫他說明所以按照這個規則這些人"},{"start":24019.79,"end":24031.955,"text":"按照我們的這個死刑執行的規則這些人 有些人都還在上訴過程當中所以委員 人命關天 人命關天 人命關天你是公衛的專家 不是司法的專家啦你現在不讓法務部部長上來講"},{"start":24041.594,"end":24059.342,"text":"這就是因為你們覺得你們的講法是不正確的嘛不符合規則當然不能執行三審定言你有沒有聽過三審定言當然有聽過但是可以不可以有上訴可以不可以再重新審理案子可以不可以申請大法官釋憲當然可以啊幫加害人"},{"start":24060.467,"end":24061.828,"text":"來 院長請教一下"},{"start":24091.314,"end":24115.512,"text":"這個賴皮寮跟五月天的事情請問一下您的女公子的房子有沒有國安特勤去守護沒有啊或者警察有沒有去站崗有還是沒有女公子的房子有還是沒有沒有沒有好那請問你贊不贊成國安特勤去站"},{"start":24117.588,"end":24145.791,"text":"賴清德主席賴清德副總統兒子在萬里的賴皮寮你贊不贊成這國安有國安的這個做法那這個要由國安特勤的人來做決定要由國安的人來決定所以你行政院長不用決定在我在選舉的過程當中確實是有比較高階的這樣的一個國安特勤的保護是但是我要提醒你"},{"start":24146.92,"end":24162.56,"text":"萬里所謂賴清德副總統的老家他的產權是他的兒子不是他你贊成讓國安特勤或者警察去佔你女公子的房子房地產嗎你贊不贊成你會不會這麼做"},{"start":24165.862,"end":24171.366,"text":"本席是擔任憲兵的要是我被派在那邊守他兒子的房子我會覺得很悲哀啊我會覺得很淒慘"},{"start":24191.291,"end":24198.002,"text":"我當一個憲兵是來報效國家的不是來替我們的特權守房子"},{"start":24198.956,"end":24224.737,"text":"假如他是副總統他是行政院長我死都甘願好那我跟委員做個報告啦當我是副總統的時候我到哪裡那特勤人員一定會到那個地方去守護保護我的安全所以如果今天我有一個地方我會經常去訪問的時候那我當然就需要有特勤的保護嘛"},{"start":24226.779,"end":24227.459,"text":"請教一下五月天的問題"},{"start":24242.25,"end":24264.096,"text":"我們國安的官員在簡報裡面說跟CNN說五月天被要求表明自己的政治立場而且這個情報是基於台灣在中國收集的情報調查可能跟一月的總統大選有關這件事情您知道嗎我知道好請稍等"},{"start":24265.784,"end":24291.38,"text":"12月28陸委會就說查證中了來這邊法務部我們蔡部長我們檢查總長邢太昭說什麼這種全國性重大的假信息要立刻澄清迅速下架溯源追查主嫌陸委會12月28就說要查現在有結果嗎有沒有"},{"start":24293.672,"end":24311.748,"text":"來我們的調查局長說48小時就可以檢測升委的影片是不是偽造我們這時間不夠所以我就直接講請問羅志正委員相關的這種不管是升委或者不是升委"},{"start":24313.383,"end":24324.47,"text":"復不復合全國重大假訊息應不應該立即澄清 迅速下架溯源追查主嫌 院長你認為應不應該當然應該啊那結果呢 結果"},{"start":24328.772,"end":24333.856,"text":"結果呢會調查局有相關的東西來來來 院長不能對你有利的就選擇公布或不公布對執政黨立委不利的就選擇公布或不公布所以當時行政院副院長的"},{"start":24349.266,"end":24350.287,"text":"你原本是個老實人啊"},{"start":24372.725,"end":24374.166,"text":"賴副總統在第一時間就為我們羅委員說這是中國屆選的聲謂影片"},{"start":24397.489,"end":24397.789,"text":"現在已經在做了"},{"start":24421.844,"end":24429.571,"text":"答案呢馬上1月13號投票了你執政黨的參選人副總統就說是中國界選嗎需要時間 院長你看清楚調查局長王俊麗說48小時48小時還要溯源呢"},{"start":24447.898,"end":24458.894,"text":"那你至少要先公布這事實不是身為嘛那你如果你公布了以後影響了偵查的這個程序呢所以你現在講的都是騙段的事情"},{"start":24460.134,"end":24463.677,"text":"再一次最後9秒鐘希望你不要學會抹紅抹黑的伎倆我沒有抹紅抹黑千萬不可以這樣子因為你要有你的歷史定位"},{"start":24505.263,"end":24508.705,"text":"好 謝謝李委員接下來請吳委員育晴執行"},{"start":24515.759,"end":24517.24,"text":"因為剛才我接到一個簡訊說中國發射這個灰彈"},{"start":24539.369,"end":24544.321,"text":"是 我剛剛也看到這個警訊了對所以中共對我們的威脅是一直在的確實 確實時時都在"},{"start":24547.634,"end":24573.053,"text":"院長我想今天在總統大選的前4天召開這樣的臨時會其實是相當罕見的那我想今天又針對高端的議題又再重啟我想很多的不許的訊息其實希望藉這一次的臨時會也能夠跟國人做一個清楚的說明事實上從第10屆我們在這個未還委員會或是在院會的報告裡面"},{"start":24574.734,"end":24593.457,"text":"院長已經做3次報告了我們在胃環委員會調閱小組就開了6次我幾乎常我們都一直在胃環嘛那這個胃環裡面的專報或是這個公聽會也開了12次所以其實疫苗的事情我們在第3會期第4會期其實非常密集的討論"},{"start":24594.618,"end":24610.575,"text":"今天又重啟我覺得也好讓我們執政團隊可以針對高端的議題來好好說清楚所以今天有這個機會也來跟院長再請教一下現在這個疫苗的採購本來就涉及很多的商業的機密"},{"start":24611.916,"end":24632.344,"text":"簽訂保密合作合約其實是正常的一個情形那政院院長不斷地對當時我們第3會期第4會期的時候我們其實有個未還的調閱小組在調閱資料裡面他們都說我們塗黑啦遮蔽啦對我們這個內容有一些攻擊那我想請問院長或是我們部長"},{"start":24633.084,"end":24640.189,"text":"如果依照在野黨的要求完全不遮蔽也不把個別的機密資訊遮蔽的話會有什麼問題"},{"start":24647.825,"end":24663.472,"text":"如果說沒有遮蔽的話那就沒有辦法避免洩露出去那這個洩露出去的話那會影響到以後我們在做採購疫苗的時候那對於這些國外的廠商對我們的信任度"},{"start":24664.032,"end":24692.094,"text":"那可能我們就會買不到疫苗買不到藥品這是一個合約的規定裡面這個保密的原則如果不遵守那接下來沒有人跟我們做生意了沒有人會賣疫苗給我們那當時我們在這個所謂的採購疫苗調閱專案小組上面其實也有相關的規定就是我們在調閱資料的時候我們其實是委員本身進去看資料也要負有保密的一個責任的但是當時其實"},{"start":24693.015,"end":24694.797,"text":"而且這位委員還是法律人出身"},{"start":24712.208,"end":24733.076,"text":"我覺得立法院要做監督我們沒有意見但是你還是要守法如果不守法我覺得我們到國際去跟人家做生意或是購買相關的疫苗我覺得我們沒辦法取信於所有的契約方所以我自己在看這個我都覺得有點自己是"},{"start":24733.796,"end":24758.994,"text":"指法的人又違法沾沾自喜的就覺得這個是在破解我們執政團隊的這個所謂說法我覺得這個是我覺得對整個國家的殺傷力是非常大的所以我覺得這個是我自己覺得不可取但是大家都在野黨一直都用這種方式來覺得自己"},{"start":24759.394,"end":24763.797,"text":"那其他的呢?其他的應該有的都比高端還長"},{"start":24787.714,"end":24794.06,"text":"疫苗保存的期限確實每一個公司他的要求都不一樣像莫德納他就是不公開"},{"start":24815.7,"end":24834.833,"text":"所以我們今天一直在談說要針對高端的這個保密要公開那我覺得如果這件事針對BNT好了或是針對我們的AZ說我們要求他公開你覺得這些國際廠他會什麼態度看台灣"},{"start":24837.038,"end":24860.01,"text":"對,包括說鴻海也不敢去公開BNT的合約因為就沒有誠信嘛對,因為你看我們好不容易購買到像BNT這麼好的一個疫苗進來我們都不希望打破或打壞這個所謂國際的這個合約嘛所以沒有,現在我覺得在野黨沒有人在問說那為什麼不公開其他的疫苗"},{"start":24860.85,"end":24861.371,"text":"太明顯的選擇性了"},{"start":24883.746,"end":24885.888,"text":"有的人是文字是不太懂封存跟封"},{"start":24908.153,"end":24909.373,"text":"我們這些合約真的都不能公開嗎?"},{"start":24921.341,"end":24938.961,"text":"時間到了就可以啊原則上時間到了就可以今天早上院長的報告裡面其實也談到監察院還有審計部其實都看過合約了因為那是公務上的需要跟司法上如果法院需要的話也是可以看的嘛"},{"start":24940.369,"end":24966.09,"text":"對 對不過在這邊也跟委員報告一下啦那今天下午的時候那個高端已經宣 正式對外做聲明他會召開董事會來決定是否要公開是 所以他們最近會召開那個董事會來決議說要不要公開嘛要不要提早公開啦對 我們有多次跟他聯繫那他今天也對外公布這樣子"},{"start":24967.223,"end":24985.601,"text":"所以表示國人希望及早知道但是我想也是要我們公司這邊我想這樣子雙方都有一個彼此的尊重就是合約裡面最重要的也顯示了我們中華民國政府對於合約的誠信那對於未來我們要採購任何的藥物"},{"start":24986.181,"end":24987.182,"text":"其實疫苗是一個非常專業的科學"},{"start":25016.136,"end":25016.276,"text":"主席"},{"start":25039.66,"end":25054.255,"text":"即使身為一個臺灣人也很焦慮的是說每次在選舉到了一次再一次的這個在野黨在操作這個這個疫苗或是操作這樣的仇恨我覺得那我們國內的國產的所謂的這個產業誰敢再讓我們國家賠錢"},{"start":25060.481,"end":25064.563,"text":"其實臺灣人的本性是慈悲善良還有謙讓然後也願意照顧弱勢像口罩的時候我們不是說我OK你先請"},{"start":25087.293,"end":25104.026,"text":"但是我們會發現在這個疫苗這件事情上的時候就變成了不斷的抹黑不斷的照說明了假 錯假的訊息以至於民眾對於疫苗的這個副作用被誇大而不願意打疫苗"},{"start":25104.386,"end":25133.036,"text":"那像這樣的一個不正確的信息的傳播實際上是阻止了讓台灣的老人家不願意打疫苗一個很重要的原因我們的調查就說要有副作用啊還有人說呢打疫苗使得比感染的人多那這些錯假消息到處漫步的時候呢實際上就使得這些老人家不願意去接受疫苗所以台灣的疫苗老人家的疫苗接種率只有7成多日本韓國跟新加坡都到9成5以上當然我們"},{"start":25133.456,"end":25157.312,"text":"臨時會議員："},{"start":25158.056,"end":25178.533,"text":"我非常支持院長的一個說明那剛剛葉委員說這個高端好像完全依賴政府好像不是事實吧所以高端其實有關長病毒疫苗院長還有部長應該很熟悉現在高端的長病毒疫苗到底市佔率多少"},{"start":25182.337,"end":25195.914,"text":"目前長病毒71的疫苗台灣有兩支一支是安特羅一支是高端總共已經封建檢驗的大概是23萬高端佔22萬3千"},{"start":25199.058,"end":25216.307,"text":"所以大概在9成左右的市佔率對 是已經9成多了所以這很專業嘛能夠研發出一個長病毒的疫苗所以剛才那個委員講說他就只有靠COVID-19疫苗他那個是自費的而且價格也不低"},{"start":25217.347,"end":25234.29,"text":"是 所以高端有它研發的能力那它自己也研發了長病毒的疫苗我覺得這個就是我們要培植的國產的一個公司疫苗這因為疫苗是戰略物資啊如果當真的有狀況的時候台灣自己要有自己的疫苗"},{"start":25235.05,"end":25235.33,"text":"主席"},{"start":25254.886,"end":25283.421,"text":"確實這是當時我們在決定COVID-19的疫苗要國際採購以及國內發展的時候就公開徵求國內所有的生醫產是這疫苗製造者能夠進來所以不是所以有國光﹚土地高端﹚有聯亞還有高端都三家對 有四家但是有一家後來他不願意安特羅他不願意進來所以有三家所以政府是全面的來照顧臺灣的生醫產業鼓勵他們好好做研發成為世界一流的疫苗廠"},{"start":25285.141,"end":25300.877,"text":"其實我們當時這樣支持我們國內的廠商進來研發疫苗是原來4家後來3家有的進1期有的進2期其實我們投入金額沒有很高高端才4.6美國4千億"},{"start":25305.894,"end":25333.9,"text":"所以我覺得我們投入的並沒有很多但是國內的廠商真的這個算是厲害啦有自己的研發的能力而且產出很好的一個疫苗能夠我想接下來全世界應該會對於我們的疫苗是很認同的那當然我們看到那個賴副總統也提到說我們高端的合約要這個公布那我剛剛也再請部長再說一次就是高端下午的公布是說"},{"start":25335.261,"end":25362.962,"text":"他們即將要召開董事會來決定是否同意跟什麼時候要公開所以這個部分我們還是要尊重高端這邊因為我們畢竟也是雙方的一個合約我們不能強迫說他一定要公開但是我們看到國內的情勢當然如果能公開我們一起讓這個訊息能夠公開透明讓高端也不要每次都變成大家的劍把"},{"start":25364.203,"end":25381.179,"text":"政府的立場也是主張可以公開啦我們就盡量的跟這個高端做協商然後希望他能夠公開我們很高興看到他願意召開董事會來做決定一個上市公司來講他們的開這個董事會大概要花多長的時間與他們一起"},{"start":25385.823,"end":25400.65,"text":"這個我印象中是說董事會召開前的一個禮拜要通知要說明然後他們來開董事會那像這一件事情的話我們很高興看到高端願意這樣來做了"},{"start":25401.471,"end":25416.945,"text":"院長最後一點時間因為最近疫情好像又再起所以整個又快要春節了又要選舉所以很多人來來往往的我們是不是要請院長這邊再宣導一次就是要趕快鼓勵大家再打疫苗"},{"start":25417.677,"end":25418.158,"text":"主席"},{"start":25447.366,"end":25468.82,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員接下來請林委員為周諸詢謝謝院長我們請陳院長還有薛部長一起上來國防部長有來嗎國防部長沒有來林委員長"},{"start":25473.081,"end":25473.361,"text":"中國發射衛星"},{"start":25494.136,"end":25506.999,"text":"發射衛星要國家級警報嗎當然啊 因為它也是一個投射器啊一個否建的投射器發射中國發射衛星發射多少你知道嗎每一次都發國家級警報嗎那就經過我們本島上一次真正發射飛彈橫越臺灣"},{"start":25514.714,"end":25523.038,"text":"上空啊沒有發國家級警報這是防空警報所以你們現在是怎樣?碰到選舉製造緊張嗎?以前飛彈飛過台灣領空說大氣層不屬於領空沒有發國家警報現在發射一個衛星"},{"start":25539.54,"end":25541.381,"text":"我剛才一看還沒有看完的時候我就上來了"},{"start":25559.046,"end":25561.849,"text":"3點05分中國發射衛星已飛越南部上空請民眾注意安全若發現不明物體"},{"start":25574.124,"end":25599.613,"text":"通報警消人員處理那個衛星是會掉下來是不是不明物體人家會發射衛星你在警告我們的民眾每一節每一節的火箭都會落到地下為什麼要提高警覺為什麼要提高警覺這個容易讓人誤解你看他的英文叫Air Raid Alert"},{"start":25599.913,"end":25624.59,"text":"MISOFLY OVER TAIWAN AIR SPACEBEWAREMISO是SATELLITE還是是MISO還是SATELLITE人造衛星怎麼講啊SATELLITE啊那怎麼寫MISO這個這個我我就你寫飛彈欸你以為台灣人都不懂英文這個錯誤的話我們要來更正錯誤馬上更正"},{"start":25629.431,"end":25630.051,"text":"臨時會議．第1次臨時會議．第1次臨時會議．第1次臨時會議"},{"start":25659.096,"end":25673.385,"text":"這是火箭搭載著衛星那為什麼要公告就是我講的這個火箭會一點一點掉下來而且選前四天有沒有借選這是你自己講的但是中國的衛星為什麼衛星用國家機器在借選"},{"start":25683.254,"end":25683.574,"text":"讓人誤導是當作飛彈"},{"start":25699.227,"end":25719.347,"text":"沒有啊你們發的簡訊英文你怎麼解釋啊火箭搭載發射的衛星啊你為什麼不寫satellite我們一定要讓民眾知道說投射這個衛星的時候火箭會掉下來大家要小心"},{"start":25719.807,"end":25722.712,"text":"你的簡訊不導民眾讓民眾容易誤會說我真的是發射飛彈對不對你的簡訊要不要道歉啊"},{"start":25734.465,"end":25756.131,"text":"你為什麼不直接寫是Satellite artificial satelliteSatellite不是launch啦Satellite不是用這一個字啦所以我想這個你剛剛不是跟我回答說人造衛星怎麼講英文怎麼講Satellite對啊那你為什麼不用Satellite這是Satellite flyover這一句話要小心因為人造衛星本來就在你那邊飛過去"},{"start":25758.011,"end":25761.235,"text":"這是一個投射的行為以前他們發過多少衛星從來我們都不曾接受過這種國家級警報這剛好選舉前四天"},{"start":25777.506,"end":25777.766,"text":"防空警報"},{"start":25807.247,"end":25809.909,"text":"第一次有這種國家級警報是因為發射衛星"},{"start":25823.441,"end":25823.662,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":25844.978,"end":25845.918,"text":"這個我們常常在講"},{"start":25872.549,"end":25882.236,"text":"所以你要去問他蔡英文總統上台以後兩岸中線不見了這個也是事實嘛國民黨執政的時候沒有這種問題啊"},{"start":25884.161,"end":25884.381,"text":"主席馬英九總統"},{"start":25906.86,"end":25916.764,"text":"憲法是災難嗎我們的治權就是臺澎金馬憲法修正條文怎麼說臺澎金馬是我們的治權但是我們國家叫中華民國固有疆域包括中國大陸那是固有疆域法案條例就是在處理這個問題啊那你不認同我們的憲法"},{"start":25933.154,"end":25934.534,"text":"發射一個衛星誤導成發射飛彈"},{"start":25962.179,"end":25987.054,"text":"那你為什麼不選擇中國?你選擇中國偏偏在選舉的時候沒有要你回答現在我們來談高端我還有時間耶是我在質詢但是我們共用時間啊OK 這個我問你才答嘛你不能問我問題嘛我沒有問題啊這個是規定啊 對不對好不好我也可以叫你不回答你可以"},{"start":25988.154,"end":25989.115,"text":"高端是一個好的疫苗"},{"start":26005.25,"end":26009.053,"text":"他現在有世界衛生組織跟他簽一個技術授權的"},{"start":26024.079,"end":26030.266,"text":"到目前為止除了賣有感疫苗其他疫苗有啦但是賣這個COVID-19疫苗的收入是零"},{"start":26043.933,"end":26044.153,"text":"這是不能說的"},{"start":26062.735,"end":26069.638,"text":"日本當時是說只要被世界衛生組織認可的疫苗他都接受因為當時我們還沒有可是我要講的是打了這個300萬"},{"start":26076.281,"end":26091.191,"text":"現在日本根本入境都不需要現在已經被WHO認可了嗎這300萬劑的疫苗打下去以後我們發現它的效益是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣的好比AZ還好那比起AZ你講的"},{"start":26096.214,"end":26108.78,"text":"這是新興傳染病這個重要的學術期刊發表的論文你如果連這個就不用講不用在這裡講好一個疫苗好嗎這是國際認證的疫苗你打AZ打BNT都可以到日本結果打高端都不行你要再打八項這是事實"},{"start":26120.182,"end":26132.39,"text":"日本科技不發達生醫沒有我們發達是嗎確實我現在講嘛日本發展出來的COVID-19疫苗沒有一個成功的"},{"start":26150.339,"end":26154.521,"text":"高端公司曾經自己發表過 單季的話是881如果多季型的話是810塊 然後他贈送20萬季"},{"start":26176.394,"end":26180.441,"text":"所以我問你這個問題881實在是蠻貴的加上我們對他的補助款4億多合起來1000塊一劑比BNT還貴"},{"start":26192.038,"end":26212.137,"text":"怎麼會有一千塊這個數字?你如果補助另外一個4個月,你還要算上去,算上下去,一劑就是一千塊那你就跟他說,八百多塊啊八百多塊那是買疫苗的錢,你們有另外,人家那個董事會的錄音帶都出來了啊所以你們有另外補助他4億多啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":26212.637,"end":26212.917,"text":"應該不該補助 該不該研發 要嗎"},{"start":26241.098,"end":26264.601,"text":"那個跟國外廠商不一樣的是高端就沒經過三期的這個認證委員如果有打過那些莫德納啦B&B啊國外有補助B&B這些都有補助讓全球各國家都認同你的高端就沒有國家認同只有我們衛福部是唯一的客人"},{"start":26266.983,"end":26292.483,"text":"你講三期的疫苗委員你當時如果打BNT打莫德納你打的也不是三期臨床實驗後的疫苗喔不是喔你一定要有這樣的一個觀念你們現在到底要公開這個合約了沒有啦決定了沒有這個部分的話高端公司已經對外來發了聲明那下午的時候他們人家高端都要開董事會"},{"start":26294.704,"end":26320.399,"text":"高端的重大訊息重訊都說不是我們不公布是因為衛福部機關要求錯誤早上已經有解釋過請金管會這個院長這個部長沒有辦法管到高端金管會要管一下重大訊息發布錯誤是要罰款的罰則的有沒有罰則重大訊息發布假訊息這有沒有罰則請說"},{"start":26323.507,"end":26323.827,"text":"法款還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":26333.871,"end":26334.712,"text":"高端公司已經決定要召開臨時董事會"},{"start":26359.609,"end":26363.59,"text":"我們的合約是簽5年保密協定政府要信手成信"},{"start":26396.983,"end":26415.199,"text":"本日排定執行的委員都已經詢答完畢謝謝陳院長及相關部會所長立即答詢作以下之決定一 將各委員發言紀錄及書面執行含重行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆"},{"start":26416.55,"end":26439.586,"text":"已提出是市委主席應善會登在公報者一例補刊報告院會本次會議所列議程已經處理完畢於是立法院議事規則第54條規定便藉最後一次院會議事錄於善會前宣讀現在請林秘書長宣讀第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議議事錄"},{"start":26444.912,"end":26471.903,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議一事錄時間 中華民國113年1月9日上午9時8分至12時2分下午20時30分至30時51分地點本院議場出席委員 邱委員陳妍等人請假委員 賴委員瑞龍等人主席 院長游錫堃"},{"start":26473.433,"end":26485.428,"text":"行政院院長提出是否公布高端合約．是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益．等相關事宜專案報告並答覆質詢．決定"},{"start":26489.292,"end":26514.176,"text":"一將各委員發言紀錄及書面執行含送行政院請就未答部分已以書面答覆二已提出之書面執行尚未登載公布者一例補刊其他事項一本次會議議事日程照議事處編撰草案通過先讀完畢報告委員會"},{"start":26515.396,"end":26528.883,"text":"尊對第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議．事由．如委員或黨團提出錯誤或疑落之處．作為下述宣告．8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議．事由．確定報言會 本次臨時會進行到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"149091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149091","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689760726d9d4d36c64826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50ac88c721d118b9685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:31:57 - 10:47:52","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":955,"end_time":"2024-01-09T10:47:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:31:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時32分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。老柯一向老謀深算、老奸巨猾，同意我們開臨時會，其中必有詐，以為要堵我們的嘴、要公開了，原來都沒有，原來今天來，這一本叫做陳建仁替高端擦脂抹粉報告書，貴為行政院長，自甘墮落成為高端的salesman，開口閉口高端多讚又多讚，臺灣多讚又多讚，臺灣前面很讚，但後面就不行了，3加11的破口不要忘了，死了多少人！高端到現在為止走不出去，國際沒有承認高端，不要忘了，它到現在為止沒有做第三期哦！院長，你不要當了院長還……","請院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，謝謝你請我上來，我還以為你不讓我有講的機會，實際上你講的是完全不正確。"],["賴委員士葆：我先講，你不要講，我沒有讓你講，你先不要講，你尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我會尊重你。"],["賴委員士葆：在這裡是我的時間。院長，原本你上台時，大家覺得你多少有一個學術良心，中研院這麼高的位子、這麼高的學術高度，怎麼會……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才講的都是事實。"],["賴委員士葆：我講話你不要插嘴可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["賴委員士葆：請你不要插嘴，尊重我。"],["陳院長建仁：那你給我講話的機會，等一下給我講話的機會。"],["賴委員士葆：我讓你講話才講。今天前面的委員「竹篙鬥菜刀」，為什麼今天開這個會？賴清德自己講的，是賴清德先「起鼓」說要公開高端疫苗，到昨天還講要公開，是賴清德要公開，不要忘了，還說什麼政治鬥爭等等之類的，我們是看民調，臺灣人民有70%希望公開，所以才有今天的臨時會。","院長，前面是前言，你不要回答……"],["陳院長建仁：你的前提我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要回答。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼不讓我回答？"],["賴委員士葆：來，我問你，你有沒有講過高端要公開？"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣不公平啦。"],["賴委員士葆：請你尊重我可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，剛才你前提完，你說要給我回答，你沒有給我回答。"],["賴委員士葆：我等一下會給你回答嘛，你聽完，我的題目在這裡啊，剛才是前言啦、前言啦！","陳建仁說高端公開要董事會同意，陳時中嗆你喔！不可以任意公開；薛瑞元也嗆你啊，薛瑞元有上來……"],["陳院長建仁：斷章取義。"],["賴委員士葆：他嗆你啊，他說高端考量中。欸！高端彷彿你們的皇帝，好像是你們的太上皇一樣欸！"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：高端、高端什麼東西，欸！來，這是你講的、你講的，陳建仁1月5號講的……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意，而且這是斷章取義的東西。"],["賴委員士葆：不同意嗎？不同意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不同意呀！"],["賴委員士葆：你講的，這報紙寫的！"],["陳院長建仁：剛才委員你講的這個，不要在那邊製造分裂啦，實際上……"],["賴委員士葆：關分裂什麼事？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你針對我的問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我……"],["賴委員士葆：請你針對問題回答說，是不是要公開一定要高端同意，是不是？是不是？Yes、No？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我贊成公開。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣就好了、這樣就好了！","高端是行政院的太上皇……"],["陳院長建仁：錯！"],["賴委員士葆：你可以看喔……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才、你剛才……"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才回答……你不同意就不同意嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端公司……"],["賴委員士葆：你先不要講！"],["薛部長瑞元：是民營的公司……"],["賴委員士葆：好！剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候，有說我們要信守契約誠信，你講的，有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊，當然啊。"],["賴委員士葆：對！好，太好了，那你砍軍公教的年金，為什麼不信守那個契約呢？軍公教是法律耶，是by law、是法耶，law是法耶！你說砍就砍，重新砍光光，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？我可以回答嗎？軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼……軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？為什麼不講誠信？軍公教為什麼可以不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：軍公教年改也是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：現在高端要講誠信！為什麼你高端講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官的釋憲……"],["賴委員士葆：軍公教不講誠信？"],["陳院長建仁：大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革，你相信大法官的解釋，還是相信……"],["賴委員士葆：我當然不相信大法官，都是綠油油的一片！"],["陳院長建仁：你不相信大法官？"],["賴委員士葆：當然不相信呀！大法官都是……"],["陳院長建仁：喔，你不相信大法官，那……"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？大法官誰相信呀！你去問一問，大法官誰相信？全部都綠的。"],["陳院長建仁：我也沒有話講了，你不相信大法官的解釋！"],["賴委員士葆：大法官就是蔡英文一個人的意思而已。","來，所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你誤解了臺灣的法律。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，我告訴你，你講說要信守契約只針對高端，軍公教不必信守契約、軍公教不必信守這個承諾……"],["陳院長建仁：我們是依法。"],["賴委員士葆：而且這是法律耶，高端沒有法律。","好，我講給你聽，高端在民國110年5月30號重訊喔！重大訊息發布，它是上櫃公司，第六款仔細看好，我把它放大了，限制條款依採購機關要求，就是衛福部要求不可以公開，所以不是高端不要公開啊！找到、抓到了，是衛福部要求要保密條款……"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它重訊是這樣。"],["薛部長瑞元：重訊是它單方面公告的。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！這個是……"],["薛部長瑞元：它不用經過衛福部同意再去公開……"],["賴委員士葆：這個是高端的重訊，110年5月30號重訊……"],["薛部長瑞元：它要公告重訊不需經過衛福部。"],["賴委員士葆：它說是你們要求它不可以公開，是你們要求的！"],["薛部長瑞元：我們沒有要求。"],["賴委員士葆：它這樣寫啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：它這樣寫並不需要通過我們的同意，它就可以寫啊。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有糾正呀、你沒有糾正喔、你沒有糾正喔。"],["薛部長瑞元：我不是它在證券的主管機關。"],["賴委員士葆：它是你太上皇嘛！所以……"],["薛部長瑞元：什麼叫太上皇？現在是民主時代，哪裡有什麼太上皇！"],["賴委員士葆：再來，行政院、衛福部自導自演，你叫它不可以公開，結果現在說公開要它同意，世間有這種事情？自己……"],["薛部長瑞元：高端是民營公司，難道民營的公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：但是它講說……不要忘了，它講、它自己講……"],["薛部長瑞元：你叫全臺灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存？"],["賴委員士葆：它的重訊講，是簽約的機關、採購機關，就是政府……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是它一面之詞，衛福部沒有叫它不可以公開！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你不要用高端的重訊來……"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！重訊，高端也是，奇怪！它公開資料耶，拜託！這是公開資料……"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：金管會主委，來、來、來！"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的資料。"],["賴委員士葆：黃主委、黃主委，來講一下重訊，黃主委怎麼處理重訊？金管會主委，它的重訊居然是一文不值啊！那金管會主委是幹什麼的？來，黃主委講一下重訊怎麼處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：重訊有櫃買中心公布的相關辦法，根據那些事項，如果有符合規定的話就要公布。"],["賴委員士葆：那它公布是真的假的？你們要不要查核？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為委員剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解它的背景。"],["賴委員士葆：你去瞭解，你可以請回。","居然大家抓到了，不公開的是衛福部啊！不是高端，卻要我們問高端。來！我們再看上一張，為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開？它又沒有要外銷，它只有101個，買主就是衛福部；它去年1到7月份營業額是0，靠著代理韓國的疫苗，它才有收入，清楚的是它要靠你們。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["賴委員士葆：它拜託你們，怎麼你現在靠他們？大家都怕成這樣！"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，高端的腸病毒疫苗已經上市。"],["陳院長建仁：對，你完全不懂高端的情況，而且現在，委員，我可以講了嘛，你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣，但是你不要忘掉高端……"],["賴委員士葆：營業額0啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，但是高端，我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要技轉……"],["賴委員士葆：高端的營業額是0，8月份靠你們的流感疫苗，這是事實啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是高端的疫苗，高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了臺灣300萬人的生命，這個你不可以否認。"],["賴委員士葆：走不出去啊！"],["陳院長建仁：因為它的效果就是跟BNT、莫德納一樣好啊！"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那你現在抹煞了這種情形，就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞，才會使得臺灣的產業沒有辦法……"],["賴委員士葆：對不起，陳院長，你不要釋放假訊息，剛才我一聽就很生氣，有哪一位國民黨的委員叫你進口中國疫苗？哪一位講出來！哪一位講出來！"],["陳院長建仁：我等一下給你一系列的東西，有喔。"],["賴委員士葆：講出來！講出來！講出來！現在就講！現在就講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗，哪一位你說！你在這裡釋放假訊息啊！你就是假訊息中心！陳院長，你怎麼可以這樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：我不是，這樣子講……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣喪失學術良心！"],["陳院長建仁：這樣子沒有辦法討論事情。"],["賴委員士葆：當然沒有辦法討論，因為你亂扣帽子。"],["陳院長建仁：要來講的是事實，當時有多少人主張要進口中國……"],["賴委員士葆：國民黨沒有立委說要進口中國疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：使用中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：以前你萬般阻擋BNT、阻擋什麼的，就是為了高端，我們還在這裡表決一個國民黨團的提案，說我們進口全世界……"],["陳院長建仁：包括中國的疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：WHO核准的……"],["陳院長建仁：就是包括中國疫苗啊！你講的就是中國疫苗啊！"],["賴委員士葆：高端就沒有列入。"],["陳院長建仁：世界衛生組織核准的疫苗就是有中國的疫苗，所以你們也是主張中國疫苗啊，因為你要世界衛生組織核准的，就是中國疫苗。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選不要中國的疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：所以你是有主張啊！所以你剛才自己講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：我哪裡有主張？"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！你說進口世界衛生組織核可的疫苗，就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥，所以你這樣主張難道不是嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你這個是假訊息。"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼假訊息？世界衛生組織核可的就包括中國疫苗，怎麼會沒有？你告訴我世界衛生組織核可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗，有沒有？有啊！確實是有。"],["賴委員士葆：難道只有中國嗎？沒有其他嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然有，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！有莫德納啊！"],["陳院長建仁：但是也有中國的疫苗啊！所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有人主張，你今天釋放假訊息，我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有釋放假訊息，是你自己講的！是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口，那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥。"],["賴委員士葆：你們可以篩選，可以不要它嘛！這東西你不要就不要，人家認為BNT只是經過上海……好！你不要給我拖時間。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有拖時間，是你講的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：價差，為什麼明明他要700塊就可以，為什麼你們買881、平均840？這不是圖利就是飯桶！"],["陳院長建仁：這不是飯桶！"],["賴委員士葆：那是圖利。"],["陳院長建仁：你那個700塊是take average，臺灣總共要買3,000萬劑的疫苗，是想說大概要700塊，委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的，AZ疫苗是很便宜的，那個我們剛才講到的中國疫苗，那種很簡單作法的，還有那個高階的疫苗，像高端的是不一樣，所以這需要議價，你700塊錢那個是錯的消息。"],["賴委員士葆：這個錄音檔出來……"],["陳院長建仁：那個是剪接的錄音檔。"],["賴委員士葆：那你去告他嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！已經告了啊！已經被告了啊！現在在司法的調查當中，高端已經去告他們了。"],["賴委員士葆：反正司法院是你們開的嘛！檢調都是你們開的。"],["陳院長建仁：我不同意這一件事情，你這樣講的話，我不同意，檢調怎麼會是行政院開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你不要轉移焦點。"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣講不對嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：我當然講得對啊！怎麼不對？"],["陳院長建仁：你說檢調是我們開的。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是你們開的啊！現在檢調專門在抓藍軍啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我完全、完全反對這樣的講法……"],["賴委員士葆：檢調專門抓藍軍，也沒抓綠軍，綠軍都不抓啊！"],["陳院長建仁：檢調是我們開的？"],["賴委員士葆：綠軍都不抓啊！藍軍拼命抓，就為了選舉的事情拼命介入，司法介選現在進行式啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員不要選舉到了就到處抹黑啦！"],["賴委員士葆：這樣沒有意思啦！我跟你講。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有意思的是你講的。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天……"],["陳院長建仁：是嘛！你就說檢調怎麼會是我開的？"],["賴委員士葆：你今天是來講的，不是來吵架的啊！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有吵架，是你……"],["賴委員士葆：陳院長一開始就來吵架啊！"],["陳院長建仁：你……"],["賴委員士葆：你來吵架的啊！院長你脾氣好一點啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，你就說……"],["賴委員士葆：你真的不是圖利就是飯桶，講到你的痛處，所以你跟我吵架。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我沒有飯桶、我沒有圖利。"],["賴委員士葆：你飯桶或是圖利，就是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以講嗎？我可以講嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：不可以講！衛福部不是圖利就是飯桶。","我們看最後一個，你們兩位都可以走。"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員講啦！"],["賴委員士葆：請走、請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT比那個價格還高啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：也是用700塊去算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走。"],["薛部長瑞元：去編預算的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：薛部長請走、薛部長請走、請走，請你們兩位都走，院長留下來，我時間不多了，不要浪費我的時間。","你對於廢死的態度是怎麼樣？蔡英文說廢死是普世目標；陳菊說人權會成立廢死的推動工作小組；游院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊！所以民進黨推動廢死在路上，在哪裡？在路上，在路上啊！黨綱把它查一查，有廢死呀！以今天來講，為什麼可以拖28個、38個……"],["蔡部長清祥：37。"],["賴委員士葆：38、37都一樣啦！whatever，很多，為什麼這樣？就是因為你們用一個死刑執行規則，這不是法律啊！這就是你訂的，法務部長訂……"],["蔡部長清祥：那是94年就訂了。"],["賴委員士葆：這個東西不是法律的東西，不是法律，對吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：它是一個規則沒有錯……"],["賴委員士葆：規則不是法律嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：但是是94年就已經訂了……"],["賴委員士葆：對！"],["蔡部長清祥：要經過救濟，包括再審、非常上訴，還有釋憲。"],["賴委員士葆：所以很簡單，我在這裡公開呼籲，反對廢死的人，大家票投侯友宜與趙少康，這樣子馬上可以把這一條改掉，已經三審定讞死刑了，還要給他再審？還要給他非常上訴？最惡劣的是還要經過憲法法庭，大法官都是蔡英文提名的，老闆要廢死，當然不敢動啊！這個就是我要講的，票投侯康才可能反廢死，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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高端我贊都我贊台灣我贊都我贊喔 台灣 台中贊啊不要不行啊3加11的破口不要忘了 死了多少人死了多少人 高端到現在為止走不出去啊國際沒有承認高端 不要忘囉他到現在為止沒有做第三期喔院長"},{"start":81.604,"end":82.811,"text":"你不要當連任還來欺騙他們院長請"},{"start":91.59,"end":116.578,"text":"委員謝謝你請我上來我還以為你不讓我有講的機會實際上你上來講的是完全不正確我沒有叫你講先不要講OK你尊重我在這裡是我的時間是我的時間院長大家原來你上台大家覺得你多少學術良心你中研院這麼高的位置這麼高的學術高度我剛才講的不是事實我講完你不要插嘴可以嗎請你不要插嘴尊重我"},{"start":117.281,"end":135.117,"text":"那你給我講話的機會我讓你講話再講今天前面的委員今天為什麼這個會賴清德自己講的是賴清德先Kick Go賴清德說要公開高端疫苗到昨天還講要公開賴清德要公開"},{"start":139.124,"end":158.776,"text":"不要忘了什麼政治鬥爭什麼之類的我們是跟著去說你看民調臺灣的人民70%的人希望公開所以才今天要講臨時會來 院長你不要回答你不回答你不要回答來來來問你你有沒有講過高端要公開"},{"start":166.169,"end":175.996,"text":"請你尊重我嗎?請你尊重我可以嗎?我會給你回答嘛!我會給你聽完嘛!我聽不在這裡啊!剛才是前言啦!前言啦!陳建仁說高端公開要同時會統一陳時中嗆!嗆你喔!不可以啊!徐樂園也嗆你啊!"},{"start":193.462,"end":213.423,"text":"雖然又上了一課﹚斷章取義﹚他說要高端考量中高端不會是你們的紅帝好像是你們的太上皇一樣我不同意高端 高端 什麼東西這是不是你講的 陳建仁一月五號講的"},{"start":214.184,"end":238.119,"text":"我不同意而且這是斷章取義的東西不同意嗎你講的我剛才委員你講的這個不要在那邊製造分裂啦實際上我可以回答嗎我可以回答嗎請你針對問題回答請你針對問題回答說是不是要公開一定要高端同意是不是是不是yes no好這樣就好了來"},{"start":241.431,"end":246.76,"text":"高端是行政院的太上皇你剛才回答你不同意"},{"start":250.842,"end":279.336,"text":"高端公司是民營的公司剛才院長在回答其他委員的時候有說我們要信守契約誠信你講的有沒有對呀當然啦對好太好了那你看軍公教的年輕為什麼不信守那個契約呢軍公教是法律耶是百路是法欸LAW是法咧你說看就看我可以回答嗎"},{"start":280.316,"end":288.859,"text":"我可以回答嗎軍公教連改也是依法辦理而且大法官釋憲的結果是可以進行軍公教改革你相信大法官的解釋還是相信"},{"start":300.622,"end":301.302,"text":"你誤解了臺灣的法律"},{"start":317.435,"end":342.575,"text":"我告訴你你講說要信守契約只針對高端軍公教不必信守契約啊軍公教不必信守這個承諾而且這是法律欸高端沒有法律好我講給你聽高端在民國110年5月30號重巡樓重大訊息發布他是上櫃公司"},{"start":344.759,"end":346.179,"text":"衛福部沒有要求"},{"start":368.999,"end":370.3,"text":"你沒有糾正了"},{"start":398.53,"end":418.315,"text":"我不是他在這個證券的這個主管的機關他是你太上訪嗎?什麼叫太上訪?現在是民主時代哪有什麼太上訪?現在行政院委員部自導自演你叫他不可以公開結果現在說公開要他同意世界的這件事"},{"start":419.415,"end":444.391,"text":"高端是民營公司難道民營的公司政府隨便要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣嗎叫做全台灣的民營公司要怎麼樣去生存這是他一念之詞問福部沒有叫他不可以公開"},{"start":445.071,"end":472.377,"text":"委員你不要用高端的重訓來...奇怪 重訓 高端的事奇怪 他公開資料欸拜託這是公開資料錯誤的資料來來來 黃主委黃主委來來講講一下重訓 黃主委怎麼處理重訓儘管會主委他的重訓居然是一文不值啊儘管會主委是幹什麼的來來來 黃主委講一下重訓怎麼處理"},{"start":473.584,"end":495.584,"text":"中訓他有歸買中心他的中訓的公布的辦法根據那些事項如果有符合規定的話就要公布那他公布是真的假的你們要不要查核這個就是他當委員您剛才垂詢的事情我不太瞭解他的背景你去瞭解好不好你瞭解假的即便這樣來我在你可以請回好不好就居然"},{"start":507.063,"end":534.698,"text":"上一張我們可以我們來可以看了可以看為什麼這裡面你一定不能公開為什麼一定不能公開他又沒有要外銷他只有一百零一個買主就是衛務部他去年的一到七月份營業額是零靠著"},{"start":547.959,"end":556.362,"text":"高端的長病毒疫苗已經上市你完全不懂高端的情況而且現在委員我可以講了吧"},{"start":558.032,"end":581.641,"text":"你剛才講的這一些說高端賣得很少怎麼樣但是呢你不要忘掉高端我剛才講過世界衛生組織跟高端有要進轉但是高端的疫苗確實高端的COVID-19疫苗確實保護了台灣300萬人的生命"},{"start":586.064,"end":605.431,"text":"這個你不可以否認因為他的效果就是跟BNT跟莫德納一樣好啊那你現在抹煞了這種事情就是因為很多人這樣的抹煞才會使得台灣的產業沒有辦法我剛才聽我聽得很生氣有哪一位國民黨的委員所叫你進口中國疫苗哪一位講出來"},{"start":607.231,"end":623.196,"text":"我等一下給你一系列的東西你現在就講 下次講國民黨哪一位立委說要進口中國疫苗哪一位你說 你在這裡分放假訊息啊你就是假訊息中心陳院長你怎麼可以這樣子啊這樣子沒有辦法討論事情啊要來講的是事實當時有多少人來主張要進入中國"},{"start":632.359,"end":633.581,"text":"國民黨團提案說我們進口全世界"},{"start":651.28,"end":651.44,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":675.603,"end":690.794,"text":"你說進口世界衛生組織合格的疫苗就包括了中國的科興跟中國的國藥所以你這樣的主張難道不是嗎你這個是假訊息你自己世界衛生組織合格的就包括中國疫苗"},{"start":691.621,"end":716.573,"text":"怎麼會沒有?你告訴我世界衛生組織可不可的疫苗有沒有中國疫苗?有沒有?有啊!確實是有!當然有!但是也有中國的疫苗啊!所以你們也是主張會進入世界衛生組織的list裡面嘛!我沒有報告小訊息!是你自己講的!是你講說你們主張世界衛生組織的疫苗通通可以進口!"},{"start":717.659,"end":724.54,"text":"那世界衛生組織通過的疫苗就是包括了科興跟國藥假查為什麼明明他說700塊才會殺你啊為什麼2881平均840這不是圖利就是罷工這是崩潰"},{"start":741.574,"end":767.284,"text":"這不是文章你那個7百塊你那個7百塊是Tag Average台灣當中買3千萬這個疫苗是想說大概要700塊委員不要忘掉AZ疫苗是很便宜的AZ疫苗是很便宜的那個我們剛才講到的中國的疫苗那種很簡單的做法的還有那個高階的疫苗像高端的是不一樣所以這是說一下你700塊錢那個是錯的消息"},{"start":770.474,"end":791.073,"text":"這個錄音檔出來那個是剪接的錄音檔那你去告他嘛有啊 已經被告啦現在在司法的調查當中高端已經去告他們了這個剪調都是你們開的剪調是我不同意這一件事情你這樣講的話我不同意剪調怎麼會是行政院開的你不要管李佳天你這樣講不對嘛"},{"start":794.796,"end":804.8,"text":"你說檢調是我們開的檢調專門在抓藍軍檢調專門抓藍軍 你可以抓綠軍綠軍都不抓 藍軍拼命抓為了選舉的事情拼命介入 司法界選委員不要選舉到了到處抹黑沒有意思的事你講的"},{"start":815.865,"end":830.156,"text":"你真的不是圖利就是飯桶講到你痛處所以你跟我吵架沒有我沒有飯桶我沒有圖利你飯桶或是圖利我可以講嗎不是圖利不可以講衛福部不是圖利就是飯桶"},{"start":843.507,"end":846.728,"text":"你對廢死態度怎麼樣財務委員說廢死不是目標陳菊人權會成立廢死的推動工作項目"},{"start":872.898,"end":900.4,"text":"有院長說廢除死刑是我們努力的目標啊所以民進黨推動廢死在路上在路上在哪裡在路上在路上啊黨綱把它查一查有廢死啊今天來講為什麼可以拖28個、38個、37個38、37都一樣 whatever很多為什麼這樣就是因為你們用一個叫死刑執行規則"},{"start":903.424,"end":909.126,"text":"在這裡公開呼籲大家反對被死的人票投侯友宇、張少康"},{"start":927.032,"end":927.052,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149090","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68998896c42cdb53a27826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b5062239c163286f5825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"15:34:15 - 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raid Alert〕Missile flyover Taiwan airspace, be aware. 是Missile還是Satellite？人造衛星怎麼講？"],["陳院長建仁：satellite啊。"],["林委員為洲：怎麼寫missile？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我就……"],["林委員為洲：你寫飛彈耶！你以為臺灣人都不懂英文，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：這個錯誤的話，我們要來更正，錯誤馬上更正。"],["林委員為洲：你在嚇臺灣人……"],["陳院長建仁：不是嚇……"],["林委員為洲：現在你又介選，是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這是不是……"],["林委員為洲：奧步啦！"],["陳院長建仁：發射衛星有很多不同的路線，為什麼一定要經過臺灣上空？這個我沒有辦法替你回答，我沒有辦法替中國來回答……"],["林委員為洲：第一次我們看到對岸發射衛星……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有辦法幫中國來回答。"],["林委員為洲：我收兩次國家級警報，英文還寫成missile。"],["陳院長建仁：這是火箭搭載著衛星，為什麼要公告？就是我講的，這個火箭會一節、一節掉下來，而且……"],["林委員為洲：這麼剛好，選前4天。"],["陳院長建仁：有沒有介選，這是你自己講的，但是中國的衛星……"],["林委員為洲：你們在介選啊！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼衛星……"],["林委員為洲：用這樣誤導的訊息、國家級警報，用國家機器在介選。"],["陳院長建仁：投射衛星有各種不同的路線，可是它偏偏要經過臺灣南部上空……"],["林委員為洲：那你先道歉，它的英文讓人誤導。"],["陳院長建仁：那你不覺得這需要讓民眾知道嗎？這個衛星為什麼一定要經過臺灣南部上空，要不要讓民眾知道？要啊！"],["林委員為洲：讓人誤導是當作飛彈。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有啊！"],["林委員為洲：你們發的簡訊英文，你怎麼解釋？"],["陳院長建仁：火箭搭載發射的衛星。"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼不寫Satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：我們一定要讓民眾知道，投射這個衛星之後，火箭會掉下來，大家要小心。"],["林委員為洲：不要硬拗啦！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼它偏偏要經過臺灣南部呢？"],["林委員為洲：你的簡訊誤導民眾，讓民眾容易誤會真的是發射飛彈，對不對？你的簡訊。要不要道歉？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會更正。"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼不直接寫是artificial satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：satellite不是用launch，satellite不是用這個字。所以我想……"],["林委員為洲：你剛才不是跟我回答人造衛星英文是satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：satellite，對啊！"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼不用satellite？"],["陳院長建仁：但是satellite flyover，這一句話要小心，因為人造衛星本來就在地球周圍繞來繞去……"],["林委員為洲：你是科學家，好，你現在要來解釋。好啦……"],["陳院長建仁：這是一個投射的行為，而投射的路徑不一定要經過臺灣的南部，可是它偏偏選擇臺灣南部的這個路線。"],["林委員為洲：以前他們發過多少衛星，從來我們都不曾接受過這種國家級警報，這麼剛好，選舉前4天你就發一個容易讓人誤導的，說中共發射飛彈。"],["陳院長建仁：我也覺得在這個時候，為什麼你不去譴責中國，我們選舉要到了，為什麼偏偏要發射這個路線……"],["林委員為洲：我當然譴責啊！我常常在譴責，你沒聽過？"],["陳院長建仁：要經過臺灣南部，為什麼偏偏要經過臺灣？"],["林委員為洲：你為什麼要誤導？誤導民眾？你發的簡訊耶！你回去檢討，國防部為什麼這個簡訊寫成這個樣子？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們錯誤的要檢討，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：防空警報，然後寫成missile，讓人誤導是……"],["陳院長建仁：這是一個防空的警報，因為火箭的那個會掉下來、會砸到人啊！"],["林委員為洲：第一次啦！第一次有這種國家級警報是因為發射衛星。"],["陳院長建仁：它是因為經過……"],["林委員為洲：你有沒有接過這種警報？"],["陳院長建仁：以往發射衛星沒有經過臺灣南部上空，所以為什麼我剛才講……"],["林委員為洲：不要用這種奧步啦！"],["陳院長建仁：為什麼中國偏偏要發射衛星經過臺灣南部上空？你要去問中國啊！你怎麼問我？"],["林委員為洲：什麼問中國，你自己解讀錯誤，你還問中國！"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有解讀錯誤，它明明有經過臺灣南部上空……"],["林委員為洲：衛星，不是飛彈。"],["陳院長建仁：那為什麼在選前4天它要選擇這一個路線？問中國！請委員……"],["林委員為洲：以前有經過，你們都不會發啦！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有！以前打衛星的時候沒有經過臺灣上空。"],["林委員為洲：以前連飛彈飛過，你都沒發過這種國家級警報！"],["陳院長建仁：所以委員你去問中國嘛……"],["林委員為洲：好啦，民眾……"],["陳院長建仁：你為什麼凡事都沒有去問中國？明明中國發射的衛星，為什麼要選擇這一條路線、選擇這個時間內來去……"],["林委員為洲：這個我們常常在講……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你要去問它。"],["林委員為洲：我跟你講，蔡英文總統上臺以後，兩岸中線不見了，這個也是事實嘛，國民黨執政的時候沒有這種問題呀！"],["陳院長建仁：因為你……"],["林委員為洲：因為什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：你屈服給中國，當然……"],["林委員為洲：什麼叫屈服？有賣臺了嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：你贊成要統一呀！"],["林委員為洲：我沒有贊成要統一喔，我沒有贊成要統一呀！"],["陳院長建仁：我說……我不是指你呀。"],["林委員為洲：我支持我們的憲法！"],["陳院長建仁：馬英九總統的時候是這樣子呀。"],["林委員為洲：我們支持我們的憲法，憲法怎麼規定，我們就怎麼做，你不支持我們憲法嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：那我們的憲法修正草案怎麼說？"],["林委員為洲：憲法是災難嗎？我們的治權就是臺澎金馬。"],["陳院長建仁：喔，臺澎金馬。"],["林委員為洲：憲法修正條……這個……"],["陳院長建仁：修正條文怎麼說？"],["林委員為洲：對呀，臺澎金馬是我們的治權。"],["陳院長建仁：是呀。"],["林委員為洲：但是我們國家叫中華民國。"],["陳院長建仁：是，我們的國家叫中華民國。"],["林委員為洲：固有疆域有包括中國大陸。"],["陳院長建仁：那是固有疆域……"],["林委員為洲：對。"],["陳院長建仁：那你延長……"],["林委員為洲：兩岸條例就是在處理這個問題呀。"],["陳院長建仁：蒙古的固有疆域包括中國……"],["林委員為洲：那你不認同我們的憲法？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，蒙古……我們的固有疆域包括中國……"],["林委員為洲：你們現在民進黨不是多數？"],["陳院長建仁：修正條文就講……"],["林委員為洲：好啦！我要提出……"],["陳院長建仁：中華民國憲法……"],["林委員為洲：好啦！我們沒有要來跟你辯論憲法。"],["陳院長建仁：你剛才講臺澎金馬，你講的……"],["林委員為洲：我在這裡嚴厲譴責國防部，民進黨政府在選前4天發了這樣的一個國家級警報，有的人收4次、有人收2次，發射一個衛星誤導成說發射飛彈……"],["陳院長建仁：那你為什麼不譴責中國？"],["林委員為洲：顯然就是故意要介選。"],["陳院長建仁：你們譴責中國偏偏在選舉的時候發射……"],["林委員為洲：沒有人要你回答！現在我們來談高端，我還有時間，是我在質詢。"],["陳院長建仁：但是我們共用時間呀。"],["林委員為洲：OK，我問你才答嘛，你不能問我問題嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有問你呀。"],["林委員為洲：這個是規定呀。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員為洲：好不好？我也可以叫你不回答，你也可以……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以徵求你的同意嘛……"],["林委員為洲：我叫你不回答，你就不用回答，我要繼續講。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["林委員為洲：我要演講也可以嘛，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：對、對、對。"],["林委員為洲：這個是我的時間。"],["陳院長建仁：那我會徵求你的同意。"],["林委員為洲：那個高端啦，我早上也一直聽到你提到這個高端，你特別提到說，高端是一個好的疫苗。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["林委員為洲：是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，當然是，國際認證。"],["林委員為洲：好啦，高端的這個COVID-19，我們現在只講它的COVID-19這個疫苗啦……"],["陳院長建仁：也是國際認證的好疫苗。"],["林委員為洲：其他的疫苗我們不談啦。"],["陳院長建仁：也是國際認證。"],["林委員為洲：國際認可，它有賣給哪一個國家嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：它現在有世界衛生組織跟它簽一個技術授權的……如果有需要的……"],["林委員為洲：有賣1劑嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，都是全部的技術的合約喔。"],["林委員為洲：有收入嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然有技轉就是有收入……"],["林委員為洲：到目前為止除了賣流感疫苗，其他疫苗有啦，但是賣這COVID-19疫苗的收入是零，除了中華民國衛福部跟它買500萬劑……"],["陳院長建仁：那還好買了這……"],["林委員為洲：這是事實啊。"],["陳院長建仁：那我可以回答嗎？我可以回答嗎？"],["林委員為洲：你還說高端是好疫苗……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["林委員為洲：那請問為什麼去日本打高端不算耶？這是要怎麼說？"],["陳院長建仁：現在換我……"],["林委員為洲：不然給你說一下，為什麼日本不認可？"],["陳院長建仁：日本當時是說，只要被世界衛生組織認可的疫苗它都接受，因為……"],["林委員為洲：我們真的沒有被衛生組織認可。"],["陳院長建仁：但是因為我們還沒有。"],["林委員為洲：還沒有。"],["陳院長建仁：可是我要講的是……"],["林委員為洲：現在有了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：打了這個300萬……現在日本根本入境都不需要……"],["林委員為洲：沒有啦，現在已經被WHO認可了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這300萬劑的疫苗打下去以後，我們發現它的效益是跟BNT、跟莫德納一樣的好，比AZ還好，那比起……"],["林委員為洲：那是你在講的。"],["陳院長建仁：這論文發表，所以就反科學啊！"],["林委員為洲：日本都不認同啊！"],["陳院長建仁：這是新興傳染病這一個重要的學術期刊發表的論文，你如果連這個都否認，那就不用講，不用在這裡講哪一個疫苗好啦！"],["林委員為洲：好啦！你要辯你就這樣去辯，人家日本就打臉你嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：本來就是這樣啊！這是國際認證的疫苗。"],["林委員為洲：你打AZ、打BNT都可以到日本，結果打高端就不行，你還要再打別的，這是事實啊！不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是事實，但是是日本當時的規定。"],["林委員為洲：日本科技不發達嗎？生醫沒有我們發達，是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["林委員為洲：確實？"],["陳院長建仁：我現在講嘛，日本發展出來的COVID-19疫苗沒有一個成功的，沒有一個像高端一樣成功的。"],["林委員為洲：好啦！我現在問你，到底高端的合約你有看過嗎？我們衛福部跟高端訂的合約，你看過沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：我有看過，院長應該沒有。"],["林委員為洲：院長沒看過，所以你要講，有時候你自己都不知道內容欸！"],["陳院長建仁：我……"],["林委員為洲：你沒看過啊！人家部長說你沒看過，你看過嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：詳細的我沒有看過。"],["林委員為洲：好啦，那就問部長吧！價格是多少？一劑。"],["薛部長瑞元：價格，這個高端公司曾經自己發表過，單劑的話是881，如果多劑型的話是810塊，然後它贈送20萬劑。"],["林委員為洲：好啦，這樣我知道了，問你這個問題嘛，881實在是滿貴的啦，加上我們對它的補助款四億多，合起來1,000塊一劑啊，比BNT還貴啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：怎麼會有1,000塊這個說法？"],["林委員為洲：你有另外補助四億多，算一算一劑等於是1,000塊。"],["薛部長瑞元：就沒有啊！就跟你說八百多塊啊。"],["林委員為洲：八百多塊那是買疫苗的錢，你們有另外……人家那個董事會的錄音帶都出來了啦，說你們有另外補助它四億多啊，不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦，那個是什麼……"],["林委員為洲：董事會亂講的？"],["陳院長建仁：這是疫苗研發時候的補助。"],["林委員為洲：以外的……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！對啊！"],["林委員為洲：不是購買疫苗的錢啊！"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員已經講了啊，全世界每一個國家在研發的過程當中都會補助廠商，我們補助了國光……"],["林委員為洲：四億多。"],["陳院長建仁：補助了聯亞，也補助高端，這是在研發的過程……"],["林委員為洲：跟國外廠商最大的差別……"],["陳院長建仁：美國就補助輝瑞4,000億。"],["林委員為洲：我知道，好，跟國外廠商……"],["陳院長建仁：所以該不該補助？該不該研發？要嘛！"],["林委員為洲：那個跟國外廠商不一樣的是，高端就沒經過三期的認證，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員如果有打過莫德納、BNT，這些也還沒有過三期。"],["林委員為洲：人家國外有補助，BNT這些都有補助。"],["陳院長建仁：你當時打BNT……"],["林委員為洲：全球各國家都認同，你的高端就沒有國家認同，只有我們衛福部是唯一的客人，顧客只有一個。"],["陳院長建仁：你講三期的疫苗，委員，你當時如果打BNT、打莫德納，你打的也不是三期臨床實驗後的疫苗喔，不是喔！你一定要有這樣的一個觀念。"],["林委員為洲：你們現在到底要公開這個合約了沒有？決定了沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分的話，高端公司已經對外發了聲明，下午的時候他們也……"],["林委員為洲：人家高端在重大訊息……"],["薛部長瑞元：他們準備開董事會。"],["林委員為洲：高端的重訊都說不是我們不公布，是因為衛福部機關要求公開……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是錯誤，早上已經有解釋過了。"],["林委員為洲：那請金管會，院長，部長沒有辦法管到高端，金管會要管一下，重大訊息發布錯誤，這要罰款的，有沒有罰則？重大訊息發布假訊息，這有沒有罰則？請說！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，櫃買中心對重大訊息如果有內容的問題，櫃買會決定到底……"],["林委員為洲：罰款還是怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：過去的案例是罰款。"],["林委員為洲：好，有聽到了喔！因為人家薛部長都講了那個是假訊息。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是前提必須是內容有錯誤，這要看櫃買去認定。"],["林委員為洲：好啦！時間的關係，我最後再問一次啦，到底什麼時候高端疫苗合約會公告給國人周知？到底什麼時候？"],["薛部長瑞元：我剛剛已經報告過，高端公司已經決定要召開臨時董事會了，那它……"],["林委員為洲：遙遙無期。"],["薛部長瑞元：不能這樣講。"],["林委員為洲：你要求它啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：它召開董事會……"],["林委員為洲：你是客戶欸！"],["薛部長瑞元：給我們一個訊息……"],["林委員為洲：人家現在買到疫苗的人有疑慮，客戶……你跟它購買……"],["陳院長建仁：我們的合約是簽5年保密協定，政府要信守誠信。"],["林委員為洲：哎呀！這些聽就好，民眾聽不下去。"],["陳院長建仁：他們現在也同意去討論。"],["林委員為洲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員都已經詢答完畢，謝謝陳院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。","作以下之決定：一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復。二、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，本次會議所列議程已經處理完畢。依據立法院議事規則第五十四條規定，本屆最後一次院會之議事錄於散會前宣讀，現在請林秘書長宣讀第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議議事錄。（全文見本期議事錄）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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碰到選舉製造緊張嗎"},{"start":74.023,"end":76.787,"text":"以前飛彈飛過臺灣領空說大氣層不屬於領空沒有發國家警報現在發射一個衛星"},{"start":85.114,"end":94.519,"text":"你發國家急警報我收到兩次你還講說是飛彈這是我的口誤但是呢確實是有經過台灣的上面寫的剛才一看還沒有看完的時候我就上來了"},{"start":104.624,"end":107.427,"text":"3點05分中國發射衛星已飛越南部上空請民眾注意安全若發現不明物體"},{"start":119.704,"end":144.713,"text":"通報警消人員處理那個衛星是會掉下來是不是不明物體人家會發射衛星你在警告我們的民眾推動的火箭的每一節每一節的火箭都會落到地下為什麼要提高警覺為什麼要提高警覺這個容易讓人誤解你看他的英文叫Air Raid Alert"},{"start":145.513,"end":170.168,"text":"MISOFLY OVER TAIWAN AIR 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over這一句話要小心因為人造衛星本來就在地球上飛過去"},{"start":303.371,"end":306.815,"text":"這是一個投射的行為以前他們發過多少衛星從來我們都不曾接受過這種國家級警報這剛好選舉前四天"},{"start":323.087,"end":323.347,"text":"防空警報"},{"start":352.827,"end":363.896,"text":"然後寫成MISO讓人不倒是這是一個黃昏的警報因為火箭的那個會掉下來會砸到人第一次有這種國家級警報是因為發射衛星"},{"start":368.524,"end":371.006,"text":"他明明有經過台灣南部上空那為什麼"},{"start":390.558,"end":402.842,"text":"在選前4天他要選擇這一個路線問中國請委員以前連飛彈飛過你都沒搭坐這種國家級警報所以委員你去問中國嘛你為什麼凡事都沒有去問中國明明中國發射的衛星為什麼要選擇這條路線你選擇在這4天來去"},{"start":420.272,"end":427.846,"text":"蔡英文總統上台以後兩岸中線不見了這個也是事實嘛國民黨執政的時候沒有這種問題啊"},{"start":429.741,"end":450.336,"text":"那因為你屈服屈服給中國當然要屈服我們要抬了嗎你贊成要統一阿我沒有贊成要統一阿我不是說你阿我支持我們的憲法馬英九總統的時候是這樣子阿我們支持我們的憲法憲法怎麼規定我們就怎麼做你不支持我們憲法嗎那我們的"},{"start":452.437,"end":475.012,"text":"憲法是災難嗎?修正條文怎麼說?我們的治權就是臺澎金馬修正條文怎麼說?就是臺澎金馬是我們的治權但是我們國家叫中華民國固有疆域包括中國大陸那是固有疆域?那你延長的...法案條例就是在處理這個問題啊那你不認同我們的憲法?"},{"start":478.695,"end":479.575,"text":"在這裡嚴厲譴責國防部"},{"start":494.46,"end":509.648,"text":"民進黨政府在這個選前4天發了這樣的一個國家級警告有人說4次 有人說2次發射一個衛星誤導成說發射飛彈顯然就是故意要借選現在我們來談高端我還有時間的喔是我在質詢"},{"start":520.083,"end":532.631,"text":"但是我們共用時間啊OK 這個我問你才答嘛 你不能問我問題嘛這個是規定啊 對不對 好不好我也可以叫你不回答 你也可以"},{"start":533.735,"end":534.696,"text":"高端是一個好的疫苗"},{"start":550.831,"end":554.635,"text":"他現在有世界衛生組織跟他簽一個技術授權的"},{"start":569.599,"end":575.841,"text":"除了賣流感疫苗其他疫苗有啦但是賣這個COVID19疫苗的收入是零除了"},{"start":589.554,"end":601.732,"text":"中華民國衛福部跟他買五百萬劑這是事實啊你還說高端是好疫苗那請問為什麼去日本打高端不算欸"},{"start":602.952,"end":605.913,"text":"日本當時是說只要被世界衛生組織認可的疫苗他都接受我們這個沒有被衛生組織認可現在有了嗎"},{"start":621.861,"end":636.769,"text":"現在日本根本入境都不需要沒有啦現在已經被WHO認可了嗎這300萬劑的疫苗打下去以後我們發現它的效益是跟BNT跟莫德納是一樣的好比AZ還好那比起AZ你講的"},{"start":638.67,"end":640.992,"text":"這是國際認證的法治條你打AZ打BNT都可以到日本結果打高端都不行你要再打八項這是事實"},{"start":664.671,"end":667.312,"text":"到底高端的合約你有看過嗎?衛福部跟高端訂的合約你看過沒有?"},{"start":688.874,"end":693.975,"text":"我有看過 院長應該沒有院長沒看過 所以你要講 有時候你自己都不知道內容欸"},{"start":695.816,"end":718.692,"text":"你沒看過 人家部長說你沒看過這一個詳細的沒有看過我沒有看過部長那就問部長吧價格是多少 一季啊價格 這個高端公司曾經自己發表過那如果單季的話是881那如果多季型的話是810塊然後他贈送20萬季"},{"start":721.974,"end":725.295,"text":"所以我問你這個問題881實在是蠻貴的加上我們對他的補助款4億多合起來1000塊一劑比BNT還貴"},{"start":737.619,"end":757.714,"text":"怎麼會有一千塊這個事?你如果補助另外一個死的我,你還要算上去,算上下去一計等於是一千塊,那就告訴你八百多塊啊八百多塊那是買疫苗的錢,你們有另外,人家那個董事會的錄音帶都出來了啊所以你們有另外補助他四億多啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":758.394,"end":759.155,"text":"所以該不該補助 該不該研發 要嗎"},{"start":786.678,"end":810.178,"text":"那個跟國外廠商不一樣的是高端就沒經過三期的這個認證委員如果有打過那些莫德納啦BMP啊BMP這些都有補助讓全球各國家都認同你的高端就沒有國家認同只有我們衛福部是唯一的客人"},{"start":810.979,"end":828.998,"text":"你講三期的疫苗委員你當時如果打BNT打莫德納你打的也不是三期臨床實驗後的疫苗喔不是喔你一定要有這樣的一個觀念你們現在到底要公開這個合約了沒有決定了沒有"},{"start":829.258,"end":831.699,"text":"高端的重大訊息重訊都說不是我們不公布是因為衛福部機關要求錯誤早上已經有解釋過"},{"start":849.608,"end":876.465,"text":"請金管會 這個院長 這個部長沒有辦法管到高端金管會要管一下 重大訊息發布錯誤這要罰款的 要罰則的 有沒有罰則重大訊息發布假訊息這有沒有罰則請說有 櫃買中心有對重大訊息如果有內容的問題櫃買會決定他到底有沒有罰款還是怎麼樣"},{"start":877.363,"end":878.203,"text":"高端公司已經決定要召開臨時董事會"},{"start":904.889,"end":908.273,"text":"我們的合約是簽5年保密協定政府要信守誠信"}]}},{"id":"149089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689685d334da2769968826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50facd5f77c04e03735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"15:18:32 - 15:34:04","影片長度":"00:15:32","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":932,"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:34:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T15:18:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（15時18分）謝謝游院長，有請陳院長及衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：陳院長請、薛部長請。"],["吳委員玉琴：陳院長辛苦了！"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員好。不好意思，因為剛才我接到一個簡訊說中國發射這一個飛彈。"],["吳委員玉琴：我剛剛也看到這個簡訊了，所以中共對我們的威脅是一直在的。"],["陳院長建仁：確實，確實時時都在。"],["吳委員玉琴：院長，今天在總統大選的前4天召開這樣的臨時會，其實是相當罕見的，今天針對高端的議題又再重啟，很多不實的訊息也希望藉由這一次臨時會跟國人做一個清楚說明。事實上，從第10屆在衛環委員會或是在院會的報告裡面，院長已經做3次報告了，我們在衛環委員會調閱小組就開了6次，我們都一直在衛環委員會，衛環裡面的專報或是公聽會也開了12次。其實疫苗的事情我們在第3會期、第4會期非常密集的討論，那今天又重啟，我覺得也好，讓我們執政團隊可以針對高端的議題來好好說清楚，所以今天有這個機會也來跟院長再請教一下，就是說現在疫苗的採購本來就涉及很多的商業機密，簽訂保密合作合約其實是正常的情形，在野黨不斷地……當時我們第3會期、第4會期的時候，我們其實有個衛環的調閱小組，在調閱資料裡面他們都說我們塗黑啦、遮蔽啦，對我們這個內容有一些攻擊，那我想請問院長或是我們部長，如果依照在野黨的要求完全不遮蔽，也不把個別的機密資訊遮蔽的話，會有什麼問題？部長回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果沒有遮蔽的話，就沒有辦法避免洩漏出去，洩漏出去的話，會影響到以後我們在做採購疫苗的時候，對於這一些國外的廠商對我們的信任度，可能我們就會買不到疫苗、買不到藥品。"],["吳委員玉琴：這是一個合約的規定裡面保密的原則，如果不遵守，那接下來沒有人跟我們做生意了……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：也沒有人會賣疫苗給我們。當時我們在所謂的採購疫苗調閱專案小組上面其實也有相關的規定，就是我們在調閱資料的時候，其實是我委員本身進去看資料也要負有保密的責任……"],["薛部長瑞元：確實。"],["吳委員玉琴：但是當時其實我們有委員去看了之後，出來他說用默背的背出來然後寫下來，然後再公告於媒體，這樣的情形其實就已經違背了我們的調閱小組運作裡面的保密原則。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯，而且這位委員還是法律人出身。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以我覺得立法院要做監督，我們沒有意見，但是你還是要守法。"],["陳院長建仁：確定。"],["吳委員玉琴：如果不守法，我覺得我們到國際去跟人家做生意或是購買相關的疫苗，我覺得我們沒辦法取信於所有的企業方。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以我自己在看這個我都覺得有點……要怎麼說？自己是……"],["陳院長建仁：不可思議。"],["吳委員玉琴：執法的人然後又違法，然後還沾沾自喜覺得這個是在破解我們執政團隊的所謂說謊，我覺得對整個國家的殺傷力是非常大的，所以我自己覺得不可取，但是在野黨一直都用這種方式來覺得自己是打弊、揭弊，可是違反了我們身為一個合約的當事人，我們怎麼彼此信守承諾，所以我想這部分也是要來跟……執政團隊真的辛苦了。這個保密的期限，我們剛剛好像好幾個委員都有問過，高端是5年嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：5年，對。"],["吳委員玉琴：那其他的呢？其他的應該不用……有的都比高端還長。"],["陳院長建仁：AZ5年，Novavax7年，然後BNT10年。"],["吳委員玉琴：那莫德納不能……"],["陳院長建仁：莫德納是不公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：不公開。"],["陳院長建仁：委員在這裡我跟你補充說明一下，剛才講說是發射衛星的警報，我再更正一下，因為它講到發射，我剛才看得很快，所以要更正一下。但是剛才講的疫苗保存的期限，確實每一個公司的要求都不一樣，像莫德納就是不公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以我們今天一直在談說要針對高端的保密要公開，我覺得如果這件事針對BNT好了，或是針對我們的AZ說我們要求它公開，你覺得這些國際廠它會什麼態度看臺灣？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，包括鴻海也不敢去公開BNT的合約。"],["吳委員玉琴：是吧！"],["陳院長建仁：就沒有誠信嘛！"],["吳委員玉琴：對，因為你看我們好不容易購買到像BNT這麼好的疫苗進來，我們都不希望打破或打壞所謂國際的合約，現在我覺得在野黨沒有人在問說那為什麼不公開其他的疫苗，因為這是一個大家要信守的，不是針對高端，是所有我們採購的疫苗，這是一個國際合約，這是一個契約的關係，所以不能隨便打破。"],["陳院長建仁：完全同意。"],["吳委員玉琴：對嘛！所以大家很奇怪只有針對高端在打，我們對自己的國產疫苗這樣的打壓，我就不知道為什麼，整個看起來實在是……"],["陳院長建仁：太明顯地選擇性了啦！"],["吳委員玉琴：是，選擇性地打壓我們國產的疫苗。我想還有一個問題，就是說大家都在講說這個抹黑也是封存30年，這個合約封存30年，部長已經不知道解釋幾遍了，但是聽進去的就聽進去，沒有聽進去的還是沒有聽進去。"],["薛部長瑞元：有的人是文字不太懂，封存跟封、跟保存搞不清楚。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以是公文保存30年啦！公文保存30年沒問題，如果以高端來講，保密是5年。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：我現在想問的是，我們這些合約真的都不能公開嗎？我記得……"],["薛部長瑞元：時間到就可以啊！原則上時間到就可以。"],["吳委員玉琴：今天早上院長的報告裡面也有談到，監察院還有審計部其實都看過合約了，因為是公務上的需要，司法上如果法院需要的話，也是可以看吧？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過在這邊也跟委員報告一下，今天下午的時候，高端已經正式對外聲明，它會召開董事會決定是否公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以他們最近會召開董事會來決議要不要公開嘛……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，他們已經發出聲明。"],["吳委員玉琴：要不要提早公開啦！"],["陳院長建仁：我們有多次跟它聯繫，它今天也對外公布。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，表示國人希望及早知道，但我想也是要公司這邊……"],["陳院長建仁：我想這樣雙方對彼此都尊重，這是合約裡面最重要的，也顯示我們中華民國政府對於合約的誠信，未來我們要採購任何的藥物、疫苗等等，或者甚至簽其他商業契約、合約的時候，人家才會相信中華民國政府是一個值得交易、很好的簽契約對象。"],["吳委員玉琴：如果我們政府不講信用，確實沒有人敢跟我們做合約或契約買賣。"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["吳委員玉琴：我也不是要幫高端講，其實疫苗是一個非常專業的科學，所以不要每次到了選舉，其實也一年多了，平息了一段時間，因為現在又要選舉了，所以又開始讓這個議題再起。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：又要引起民眾對高端的仇恨值或是所謂的疑慮，我想實在是不需要，政治的歸政治，科學的歸科學。我身為一個臺灣人也很焦慮，每次選舉到了，在野黨一次再一次操作疫苗或是這樣的仇恨，我覺得我們所謂的國內產業，誰敢再讓我們國家培植？因為每次培植一出來就被打成這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們的生醫科技看到真是有點惋惜，這樣的政治打壓讓我們對國內的生醫科技發展也是非常擔憂。"],["陳院長建仁：其實臺灣人的本性是慈悲、善良還有謙讓，也願意照顧弱勢，像發口罩的時候，我們說「我OK，你先請」。但是我們發現在疫苗這件事情上就變成不斷抹黑、不斷說錯假訊息，以至於民眾對於疫苗的副作用被誇大而不願意打疫苗，像這樣不正確訊息的傳播，實際上是讓臺灣的老人家不願意打疫苗一個很重要的原因，我們的調查就是說有副作用，還有人說打疫苗死的比感染的人多，當這些錯假消息到處漫布的時候，實際上就使得這些老人家不願意去接種疫苗，所以臺灣老人家的疫苗接種率只有七成多，日本、韓國跟新加坡都到九成五以上，當然到後來Omicron來的時候，這些人就不幸死亡，這是讓我們很痛心的事情。所以我完全贊成你的講法，要講科學的證據以及效果在哪裡，不要製造分裂、不要製造假消息，更不要製造仇恨，為了政治目的來製造仇恨，我覺得這很不可取。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，我非常支持院長的一個說明。剛剛又有委員說高端完全依賴政府，好像不是事實吧？"],["陳院長建仁：不是。"],["吳委員玉琴：有關高端的腸病毒疫苗，院長還有部長應該很熟悉，現在高端的腸病毒疫苗市占率到底有多少？您有研究嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，目前腸病毒71型的疫苗，臺灣有兩支，一支是安特羅、一支是高端，總共已經封緘檢驗的大概是23萬，高端占22萬3,000。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以大概占九成左右的市占率？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，已經九成多了。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以這很專業嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以它是一個好的疫苗……"],["吳委員玉琴：能夠研發出一個腸病毒的疫苗……"],["陳院長建仁：所以剛才委員講說它就只有靠COVID-19疫苗……"],["吳委員玉琴：靠我們高端……"],["薛部長瑞元：它那個是自費的，而且價格也不低。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以高端有它研發的能力，然後它自己也研發腸病毒疫苗，我覺得這個就是我們要培植的一個國產公司疫苗，因為疫苗是戰略物資，如果真的有狀況的時候，臺灣自己要有自己的疫苗，有這樣的研發能力，然後培植它能夠研發新的、好的疫苗來幫助國人的健康。我覺得我們不能一手打高端，一手又要高端的疫苗，每次選舉的時候就來這一招，真的是會影響我們生醫產業的發展。"],["陳院長建仁：確實啦！當時我們在決定COVID-19疫苗要國際採購，以及國內發展的時候，就公開徵求國內所有的生醫廠、疫苗製造者能夠進來。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以不是圖利高端……"],["陳院長建仁：所以有國光、有聯亞，還有高端啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：對嘛！有3家嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：有4家，但是有1家後來不願意，安特羅不願意進來，所以有3家，所以政府是全面地來照顧臺灣的生醫產業，鼓勵它們好好做研發，成為世界一流的疫苗廠。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以院長……"],["陳院長建仁：做到這麼好的疫苗……"],["吳委員玉琴：其實我們當時這樣支持……"],["陳院長建仁：很好啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：我們國內的廠商進來研發疫苗，原來4家，後來3家，有的進一期，有的進二期嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：其實我們投入的金額沒有很高，高端才4.6，然後聯亞也……"],["陳院長建仁：美國4,000億啦！"],["吳委員玉琴：所以我覺得我們投入的並沒有很多，但是國內的廠商真的算是厲害，有自己的研發能力，而且產出很好的疫苗，我想接下來全世界應該會對於我們的疫苗是很認同的。","當然我們看到賴副總統也提到高端合約要公布，我剛剛也請部長再說一次，就是高端下午的公布是說它們即將要開董事會。"],["薛部長瑞元：它們即將要召開董事會來決定是否同意及什麼時候要公開。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以這個部分我們還是要尊重高端這邊，因為我們畢竟也是一個雙方的合約。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們不能強迫它一定要公開，但是我們看到國內的情勢，當然如果能公開，我們一起讓這個訊息能夠公開透明，讓高端也不要每次都變成大家的箭靶。"],["陳院長建仁：對，政府的立場也是主張可以公開，我們就儘量跟高端協商，然後希望它能夠公開，我們很高興看到它願意召開董事會來做決定。"],["吳委員玉琴：以一個上市公司來講，它們開董事會大概要花多長時間？以他們的預期？"],["陳院長建仁：我印象中是董事會召開前一個禮拜要通知、要說明，然後它們來開董事會。那像這件事情的話，我們很高興看到高端願意這樣來做了。"],["吳委員玉琴：它們已經要進行了。","院長，最後一點時間，因為最近疫情好像又再起，快要春節了，又要選舉，很多人來來往往的，是不是請院長這邊再宣導一次要趕快鼓勵大家再打疫苗？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我想這個很重要，所以謝謝委員，你一向很關心國人的健康。這個XBB的COVID-19疫苗對於最近在中國大陸的JN.1病毒株是有效果的，所以我也在這裡鼓勵所有民眾都一定要再來接種一次COVID-19 XBB疫苗。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝院長，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。","接下來請林委員為洲質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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我剛剛也看到這個警訊了對所以中共對我們的威脅是一直在的確實 確實時時都在"},{"start":36.203,"end":61.599,"text":"院長我想今天在總統大選的前4天召開這樣的臨時會其實是相當罕見的那我想今天又針對高端的議題又再重啟我想很多的不許的一個訊息其實希望藉這一次的這個臨時會也能夠跟國人做的一個清楚的說明事實上從第10屆我們在這個衛黃委員會或是在院會的這個報告裡面"},{"start":63.28,"end":81.987,"text":"院長已經做3次報告了我們在胃環委員會調閱小組就開了6次我幾乎常我們都一直在胃環嘛那這個胃環裡面的專報或是這個公聽會也開了12次所以其實疫苗的事情我們在第3會期第4會期其實非常密集的討論"},{"start":83.187,"end":99.142,"text":"今天又重啟我覺得也好讓我們執政團隊可以針對高端的議題來好好說清楚所以今天有這個機會也來跟院長再請教一下現在這個疫苗的採購本來就涉及很多的商業的機密"},{"start":100.123,"end":100.863,"text":"吳玉琴議員吳玉琴議員吳玉琴議員"},{"start":123.492,"end":152.038,"text":"依照在野黨的要求完全不遮蔽那也不把個別的這個這個機密的資訊遮蔽的話會有什麼問題部長回答如果說沒有遮蔽的話那就沒有辦法避免洩露出去那這個洩露出去的話那會影響到以後我們在做採購疫苗的時候那對於這些國外的廠商對我們的信任度"},{"start":152.598,"end":180.145,"text":"那可能我們就會買不到疫苗買不到藥品這是一個合約的規定裡面這個保密的原則如果不遵守那接下來沒有人跟我們做生意了沒有人會賣疫苗給我們那當時我們在這個所謂的採購疫苗調閱專案小組上面其實也有相關的規定就是我們在調閱資料的時候我們其實是委員本身進去看資料也要負有保密的一個責任的但是當時其實"},{"start":181.585,"end":183.366,"text":"這位委員還是法律人出身"},{"start":200.915,"end":201.115,"text":"吳玉琴議員"},{"start":222.085,"end":222.385,"text":"吳玉琴議員"},{"start":248.212,"end":251.513,"text":"其他的呢?其他的應該有的都比高端還長"},{"start":276.283,"end":303.148,"text":"AZ5年 NOVAVAX7年然後這個VNT10年然後莫德納是不公開委員在這裡我跟你補充說明一下我剛才講說是發射衛星的警報我再更正一下因為他講到發射我剛才看得很快所以我要更正一下但是剛才講的這個疫苗保存的期限確實是每一個公司他的要求都不一樣像莫德納他就是不公開"},{"start":304.249,"end":319.559,"text":"所以我們今天一直在談說要針對高端的這個保密要公開那我覺得如果這件事針對BNT好了或是針對我們的AZ說我們要求他公開你覺得對這些國際廠他為什麼態度看台灣"},{"start":325.605,"end":348.556,"text":"對,包括說鴻海也不敢去公開BNT的合約因為就沒有誠信嘛對,因為你看我們好不容易購買到像BNT這麼好的一個疫苗進來我們都不希望打破或打壞這個所謂國際的這個合約嘛所以沒有,現在我覺得在野黨沒有人在問說那為什麼不公開其他的疫苗"},{"start":349.436,"end":349.957,"text":"太明顯的選擇性了啦"},{"start":372.312,"end":374.452,"text":"有的人是文字是不太懂封存跟封"},{"start":396.72,"end":397.941,"text":"我們這些合約真的都不能公開嗎?"},{"start":410.556,"end":427.504,"text":"時間到了就可以啊原則上時間到了就可以今天早上院長的報告裡面其實也談到監察院還有審計部其實都看過合約了因為那是公務上的需要跟司法上如果法院需要的話也是可以看的嘛"},{"start":428.934,"end":454.599,"text":"對不過在這邊也跟委員報告一下那今天下午的時候那個高端已經宣 正式對外做聲明他會召開董事會來決定是否要公開是 所以他們最近會召開那個董事會來決議說要不要公開嗎要不然提早公開啦因為我們有多次跟他聯繫那他今天也對外公布這樣子"},{"start":455.772,"end":474.167,"text":"所以表示國人希望及早知道但是我想也是要我們公司這邊我想這樣子雙方都有一個彼此的尊重就是合約裡面最重要的也顯示了我們中華民國政府對於合約的誠信對於未來我們要採購任何的藥物"},{"start":474.767,"end":501.74,"text":"疫苗等等或者甚至簽其他的商業企業的合約的時候呢那人家才會相信說中華民國政府是一個值得跟我們有交易的有很好的簽企業的對象也確實如果我們政府不講信用沒有人敢跟我們再做這個合約或契約的一個買賣那我想也不是要幫高端講就是說其實疫苗是一個非常專業的一個"},{"start":503.401,"end":503.662,"text":"吳玉琴"},{"start":528.238,"end":543.428,"text":"即使身為一個臺灣人也很焦慮的是說每次在選舉到了一次再一次的這個在野黨在操作這個疫苗或是操作這樣的仇恨我覺得那我們國內的國產的所謂的這個產業誰敢再讓我們國家賠錢"},{"start":549.011,"end":553.135,"text":"其實臺灣人的本性是慈悲善良還有謙讓然後也願意照顧弱勢像口罩的時候我們不是說我OK你先請"},{"start":575.854,"end":592.592,"text":"但是我們會發現在這個疫苗這件事情上的時候就變成了不斷的抹黑不斷的照說明了假 錯假的訊息以至於民眾對於疫苗的這個副作用被誇大而不願意打疫苗"},{"start":592.952,"end":608.122,"text":"那像這樣的一個不正確的信息的傳播實際上是阻止了讓台灣的老人家不願意打疫苗一個很重要的原因我們的調查就說要有副作用還有人說打疫苗使得比感染的人多"},{"start":608.502,"end":633.829,"text":"那這些錯假消息到處漫步的時候呢實際上就使得這些老人家不願意去接受疫苗所以台灣的疫苗老人家的疫苗接種率只有7成多日本、韓國跟新加坡都到9成5以上當然我們這個到後來Omicron來的時候這些人就不幸會死亡這是讓我們很痛心的事情所以齁我完全贊成你的就是說完全要講科學的證據然後呢它的效果在哪裡"},{"start":634.349,"end":645.482,"text":"那不要製造分裂不要製造這個假消息那更不要製造仇恨那利用仇恨為了政治目的來製造仇恨我覺得這很不可取"},{"start":646.617,"end":647.658,"text":"高端的長病毒疫苗市佔率多少?"},{"start":670.9,"end":684.334,"text":"目前長病毒71的疫苗台灣有兩支一支是安特羅一支是高端總共已經封建檢驗的大概是23萬高端佔22萬3千"},{"start":687.465,"end":704.854,"text":"所以大概在9成左右的市佔率對 是已經9成多了所以這很專業嘛能不能研發出一個長病毒的疫苗所以剛才那個委員講說他就只有靠COVID-19疫苗他那個是自費的而且價格也不低"},{"start":706.635,"end":722.836,"text":"高端有它研發的能力它自己也研發了長病毒的疫苗我覺得這個就是我們要培植的國產的一個公司疫苗因為疫苗是戰略物資啊如果當真的有狀況的時候台灣自己要有自己的疫苗"},{"start":723.297,"end":724.077,"text":"吳玉琴議員吳玉琴議員"},{"start":743.453,"end":771.968,"text":"確實這是當時我們在決定COVID-19的疫苗要國際採購以及國內發展的時候就公開徵求國內所有的生醫產是這疫苗製造者能夠進來所以有國光 有聯亞還有高端有四家但是有一家後來安特羅他不願意進來所以有三家所以政府是全面的來照顧臺灣的生醫產業鼓勵他們好好做研發成為世界一流的疫苗廠"},{"start":772.967,"end":774.108,"text":"做到這麼好的疫苗很好喔美國4千億"},{"start":794.45,"end":822.472,"text":"所以我覺得我們投入的並沒有很多但是國內的廠商真的這個算是厲害啦有自己的研發的能力而且產出很好的一個疫苗能夠我想接下來全世界應該會對於我們的疫苗是很認同的那當然我們看到那個賴副總統也提到說我們高端的合約要這個公布那我剛剛也再請部長再說一次就是高端下午的公布是說"},{"start":823.812,"end":851.225,"text":"他們即將要召開董事會來決定是否同意跟什麼時候要公開所以這個部分我們還是要尊重高端這邊因為我們畢竟也是雙方的一個合約我們不能強迫說他一定要公開但是我們看到國內的情勢當然如果能公開我們一起讓這個訊息能夠公開透明讓高端也不要每次都變成大家的箭靶"},{"start":852.346,"end":853.286,"text":"以一個上市公司來講他們開這個董事會大概要花多長的時間與他們一起"},{"start":874.392,"end":889.197,"text":"我印象中是說董事會召開前的一個禮拜要通知要說明然後他們來開董事會那像這一件事情的話我們很高興看到高端願意這樣來做了"},{"start":890.037,"end":905.492,"text":"院長最後一點時間因為最近疫情好像又再起所以整個又快要春節了又要選舉所以很多人來來往往的我們是不是要請院長這邊再宣導一次就是要趕快鼓勵大家再打疫苗"},{"start":906.703,"end":907.224,"text":"謝謝 謝謝院長 辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"149088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68976bf57f42bb63819826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50f8901a0837cb9f375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"15:02:17 - 15:18:20","影片長度":"00:16:03","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":963,"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:18:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T15:02:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（15時2分）謝謝游院長，麻煩請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員午安。"],["李委員德維：陳院長，請問高端這個案子是不是中國介選？"],["陳院長建仁：高端？"],["李委員德維：有沒有中國介選？"],["陳院長建仁：我想高端有沒有中國介選是當然沒有，這跟中國沒有關係，但是高端的疫苗確實有跟中國的疫苗作比較。"],["李委員德維：請教一下，在野黨包含本席在內，有誰在這邊提出來，要求買中國的國藥跟科興的疫苗，你可以講出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這個人數還不少，王定宇委員曾經有公布一個數據，但是我是尊重我們大院的委員……"],["李委員德維：是，人數還不少的話，你就隨便說一個嘛！沒關係。"],["陳院長建仁：我在這裡就不公開說明了。"],["李委員德維：沒關係，你就隨便說一個。"],["陳院長建仁：大院委員我不會說，但是最起碼有一個人我可以說，就是馬英九前總統就有說。"],["李委員德維：我想請教，執政黨的議員說，BNT是中國分裝的，在中國上海分裝的，有沒有這回事？您當時有沒有看到？"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有看到。"],["李委員德維：沒有看到，沒關係，所以在野黨的你都看得到，執政黨的你看不到。請教一下，高端跟美國國衛院有相關的技術合作，是不是您牽的線？"],["陳院長建仁：這件事情實際上在高端整個……"],["李委員德維：是還是不是嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我現在在回答你的問題嘛！"],["李委員德維：是。"],["陳院長建仁：實際上美國國家衛生研究院在疫情的這段期間，就找出了一段冠狀病毒的基因，他們把這個基因拿去做莫德納的疫苗，他們也希望臺灣能夠發展蛋白質次單元的疫苗。這個研究者，我認識他……"],["李委員德維：所以是你的好朋友？"],["陳院長建仁：他有來問我說，國內有沒有人願意？我覺得這是一個好事。"],["李委員德維：因為高端的副董事長有說，你講一句話、有力人士講一句話，比他們講10句還有用……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我想沒有這一回事，這是……"],["李委員德維：所以其實您就是高端跟美國國衛院相關的牽線者，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：這個是很重要的一件事情……"],["李委員德維：是。"],["陳院長建仁：當國家有需要發展一個好的疫苗，而這個疫苗也證明了是有效的時候，我們就應該……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，我沒有說你不好，我沒有說你不好，我沒有說你不好，但是重點來了……"],["陳院長建仁：我就要講是好啊！我這樣做是好啊！"],["李委員德維：沒關係，那都不重要，你講的不重要。","請教一下，在高端這一個案子裡面，您是關係人還是公正的第三方？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然是……"],["李委員德維：你今天在這邊幾乎就是高端的代言人……"],["陳院長建仁：不對！"],["李委員德維：高端的關係人啊！"],["陳院長建仁：不是！"],["李委員德維：因為你牽線的，不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是因為這兩個人認識，所以我們跟他認識……"],["李委員德維：陳院長，所以你不是公正的第三方，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然是公正的第三方，我為什麼不是公正的第三方？"],["李委員德維：你是哪裡公正的第三方？"],["陳院長建仁：我只是就這個好的genetic structure，建議他來找臺灣的學者，我沒有什麼……"],["李委員德維：今天高端的副董事長在受訪裡面講得非常地清楚……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有……"],["李委員德維：所以您不是公正的第三方……"],["陳院長建仁：我是公正的第三方……"],["李委員德維：好，沒關係！"],["陳院長建仁：而且你剛才講到的臨床試驗或者是動物實驗裡面，所有的數據都登在世界上一流的期刊，包括真實世界的資料……"],["李委員德維：陳院長，後來給EUA的免疫橋接基本上是由您來定的調，後來衛福部之所以第一階段、第二階段……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講的完全錯誤……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，部長，你不用上來，部長，你不用上來……"],["陳院長建仁：好，沒有問題，我來跟你講……"],["李委員德維：因為這是專家，沒有問題……"],["陳院長建仁：EUA這件事情是全世界都在講的，世界衛生組織在COVID-19期間就講……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，院長，我想請教，最後……"],["陳院長建仁：任何有一點點基本常識的人就會做EUA、免疫橋接的做法。"],["李委員德維：院長，請教，最後500萬劑……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你剛才講的那個是完全不正確啦！"],["李委員德維：政府採購了500萬劑，然後報廢了將近170萬劑……"],["陳院長建仁：因為有人抹黑、謾罵，所以使得它沒有使用，這就是我剛才講的使得可以用的人沒有用……"],["李委員德維：院長，所以你是輕忽臺灣人的智商囉！有人抹黑，臺灣人就選擇不要打高端，是這個意思嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當然啊！那個時候……"],["李委員德維：你是看輕2,300萬臺灣人嗎？院長，我想請問，假如高端這麼好，為什麼後來連……"],["陳院長建仁：那個時候請問在野黨怎麼樣講？中共的附和者怎麼樣來講高端……"],["李委員德維：無感的疫苗，大家都不願意打呀！"],["陳院長建仁：因為他們擔心高端疫苗的效果比科興、比國藥好啦……"],["李委員德維：院長、院長、院長，請你暫停……"],["陳院長建仁：我們來看它的抗體價，我講抗體價給你聽……"],["李委員德維：游院長，我可以請他暫停嗎？我要講話。"],["陳院長建仁：好，你講。"],["李委員德維：陳院長……"],["陳院長建仁：你要講科學嗎？"],["李委員德維：我跟你講，高端的營收完全是靠民進黨政府衛福部的採購，你去看它的報表，因為它是上市公司，它的營收就是靠政府給它採購新冠疫苗跟這一次代理韓國的流感疫苗，你去看它的財報……"],["陳院長建仁：我不贊成你的意見。"],["李委員德維：你不用贊成，這是事實……"],["陳院長建仁：這不是事實……"],["李委員德維：這不是假訊息……"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯誤的講法……"],["李委員德維：好，沒有關係，重點是……"],["陳院長建仁：高端發展的腸病毒疫苗已經得到了藥證，所以……"],["李委員德維：這個所謂的疫苗國家隊最後是空歡喜一場，虎頭蛇尾……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有虎頭蛇尾，而且是好疫苗……"],["李委員德維：浪費人民的血汗錢，最後失敗收場！對不對？所以……"],["陳院長建仁：最好的疫苗。"],["李委員德維：院長，你還要講最好的疫苗……"],["陳院長建仁：當然是，這個事實擺在眼前嘛！"],["李委員德維：然後什麼都是民進黨、執政黨對，都是人民的錯，在野黨的錯、抹黑，所以民眾不願意打高端，這就是你的結論……"],["陳院長建仁：對，我的結論是確實有人抹黑高端……"],["李委員德維：所以我才說你也不用牽拖這麼多防疫的人員，將帥無能，累死三軍！哪三軍？我跟你說，就是辛苦的防疫人員跟我們2,300萬的同胞要排隊買口罩、排隊打疫苗、排隊買快篩，這就是！"],["陳院長建仁：高端疫苗300萬劑拯救了將近百萬的人口……"],["李委員德維：好，沒關係……"],["陳院長建仁：結果你抹煞它，說它沒有效果，而且全世界都說它是一個好疫苗……"],["李委員德維：院長，好，謝謝，我們換題目……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你剛才講的是完全不科學、沒有理性依據的說法。"],["李委員德維：院長，請教一下，對於廢死，你的態度是怎麼樣？"],["陳院長建仁：我是天主教徒，我當然是贊成廢死啊！"],["李委員德維：贊成廢死，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：我贊成。"],["李委員德維：那請問現在民進黨、執政黨，蔡部長，你也不用來，謝謝！蔡總統8年任內執行了死刑在2018跟2020，現在還有38名死囚在獄中，其中有3名是殺警而被逮捕。請問一下，為什麼不執行？這難道不是今天公祭，明天忘記嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，我想死刑是不是要執行有一套規則在進行，這一套規則，你沒有要讓法務部部長來說明，那我就幫他說明……"],["李委員德維：所以包含你在內，蔡英文總統、賴清德主席，基本上都是主張廢死……"],["陳院長建仁：所以按照我們這個死刑執行的規則，這些人有些人都還在上訴過程當中。所以委員，人命關天，人命關天，人命關天……"],["李委員德維：院長，這個沒有在上訴的啦！三審定讞啦！你是公衛的專家，不是司法的專家啦！"],["陳院長建仁：人命關天，有一定的死刑執行的規則，你現在不讓法務部部長上來講，就是因為你們的講法是不正確的嘛！不符合規則當然不能執行。"],["李委員德維：院長，三審定讞你有沒有聽過？"],["陳院長建仁：三審定讞當然有聽過，但是可不可以有上訴？可不可以再重新審理案子？可不可以聲請大法官釋憲？當然可以啊！"],["李委員德維：所以你們現在就不斷地在幫加害人找出路嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這一回事，這我完全不同意。"],["李委員德維：三審定讞，你現在在幫所謂的加害人找出路，真的是夠了！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你現在講的就是很有限的，你忘了所有的死刑執行的規則，你剛才講的，你根本剝奪了他們在大法官請求釋憲這樣的一個權利啊！"],["李委員德維：院長，請教一下賴皮寮跟五月天的事情，請問一下，您的女公子的房子有沒有國安特勤去守護？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員德維：或者警察有沒有去站崗？您女公子的房子，有還是沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員德維：沒有，好，那請問你贊不贊成國安特勤去站賴清德主席、賴清德副總統兒子在萬里的賴皮寮？你贊不贊成？"],["陳院長建仁：國安有國安的作法，這個要由國安特勤的人來做決定。"],["李委員德維：要由國安的人來決定，所以你行政院長不用決定？"],["陳院長建仁：我跟你報告，在我在選舉的過程當中，確實是有比較高階這樣國安特勤的保護啦！"],["李委員德維：是，但是我要提醒您，萬里所謂賴清德副總統老家的產權是他的兒子的，不是他的，你贊成讓國安特勤或者警察去站你女公子的房子、房地產嗎？你贊不贊成、你會不會這麼做？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然不會啊！"],["李委員德維：你不會，那賴清德會。"],["陳院長建仁：我講說國安特勤有國安特勤的作法。"],["李委員德維：這樣子就是用特權在霸凌國安特勤。"],["陳院長建仁：這不是特權啦！你可以有、可以沒有的話就不是特權。"],["李委員德維：本席是擔任憲兵，要是我被派在那邊守他兒子的房子，我會覺得很悲哀啊！我會覺得很淒慘！我當一個憲兵是來報效國家的，不是來替我們的特權守房子，假如他是副總統、他是行政院長，我死都甘願。"],["陳院長建仁：好，那我跟委員做個報告，當我是副總統的時候，我到哪裡，特勤人員一定會到那一個地方去守護，保護我的安全。所以如果今天有一個地方我會經常去訪問的時候……"],["李委員德維：本席過去是憲兵，本席瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：當然就需要有特勤的保護，賴副總統因為也常常去到他萬里的老家，所以那個地方……"],["李委員德維：他真的不常去。"],["陳院長建仁：所以才會有這個特勤的保護，我想每一個人不一樣，所以你問我我的情況，我的……"],["李委員德維：沒關係，院長，請教一下五月天的問題，我們國安的官員在簡報裡面跟CNN說，五月天被要求表明自己的政治立場，而且這個情報是基於臺灣在中國蒐集的情報，調查可能跟1月的總統大選有關。這件事情您知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道。"],["李委員德維：好，請稍等。12月28日陸委會就說查證中了，這邊法務部蔡部長、檢察總長邢泰釗說什麼？這種全國性重大的假訊息要立刻澄清，迅速下架，溯源追查主嫌。陸委會12月28日就說要查，現在有結果嗎？有沒有？我們的調查局長說48小時就可以檢測深偽的影片是不是偽造，時間不夠，所以我直接請問羅致政委員相關的訊息，不管是深偽或不是深偽，符不符合全國重大假訊息？應不應該立即澄清，迅速下架，溯源追查主嫌？院長，你認為應不應該？"],["陳院長建仁：當然應該啊！也正在做了。"],["李委員德維：結果呢？"],["陳院長建仁：正在做了。"],["李委員德維：結果呢？調查局有相關的東西……"],["陳院長建仁：我剛才就講過，深偽技術現在進步得很厲害。"],["李委員德維：院長，不能對你有利的就選擇公布或不公布……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事！"],["李委員德維：對執政黨立委不利的就選擇公布或不公布。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事！"],["李委員德維：所以當時行政院副院長的訊息很快就澄清了。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事！"],["李委員德維：我們調查局自己也說48小時。"],["陳院長建仁：調查的方法我剛才就講過，深偽偽造的技術現在日益進步當中，當時鄭文燦副院長的那個案子跟這個案子是不一樣的，不可……"],["李委員德維：院長，這是本席最後一次質詢你，你原本是個老實人……"],["陳院長建仁：我是老實，所以我現在講的就是對的事情。"],["李委員德維：進入政治圈真的被帶壞了。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這一回事。"],["李委員德維：只要講「中國介選」四個字一切都結束了，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這一回事……"],["李委員德維：賴副總統在第一時間就為羅委員說這是中國介選的深偽影片。"],["蔡部長清祥：一切都還在偵查中，跟委員報告，我們檢調都是秉著公平公正的態度來處理。"],["李委員德維：請教這符不符合全國重大假訊息，應不應該立即澄清，迅速下架，溯源追查主嫌？"],["蔡部長清祥：現在已經在做了。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["李委員德維：結果呢？"],["陳院長建仁：現在正在做，我剛才……"],["李委員德維：答案呢？1月13日馬上就要投票了……"],["陳院長建仁：答案就是因為整個偵查的過程需要很謹慎、很仔細、很小心。"],["李委員德維：現在是執政黨的參選人、副總統就說是中國介選嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：就是因為深偽東西的辨識是需要時間的。"],["李委員德維：需要時間？院長，你看清楚調查局長王俊力說48小時！48小時！"],["陳院長建仁：還要溯源啊！"],["李委員德維：你至少要先公布這是不是深偽嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：如果公布了以後影響偵查的程序呢？所以你現在講的都是片段的事情。"],["李委員德維：院長，你真的學壞了。"],["陳院長建仁：完全沒有，我講的就是科學，我講的就是正確的程序，最重要的就是要真實的事情，真相……"],["李委員德維：最後15秒鐘，希望你不要學會抹紅抹黑的技能。"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有抹紅抹黑。"],["李委員德維：千萬不可以這樣子。"],["陳院長建仁：中國介選確有其事。"],["李委員德維：因為你要有你的歷史定位。"],["陳院長建仁：中國介選的確有其事。"],["李委員德維：絕對不應該這樣，所以你一再用所謂的中國介選真的太好笑！"],["陳院長建仁：本來就是啊！"],["主席：接下來請吳委員玉琴質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇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謝謝游院長麻煩請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":42.171,"end":68.464,"text":"陳院長請問高端這個案子是不是中國借選有沒有中國借選我想高端有沒有中國借選當然沒有這跟中國沒有關係但是高端的疫苗確實有跟中國的疫苗來做比較在野黨包含本席在內有誰在這邊提出來要求買中國的國藥跟科興的疫苗你可以講出來嗎"},{"start":69.724,"end":70.225,"text":"執政黨議員說EMT是中國分莊"},{"start":94.699,"end":96.059,"text":"實際上在美國國家衛生研究院"},{"start":124.121,"end":128.715,"text":"他在疫情的這一段期間他就有找出來了一段"},{"start":129.452,"end":133.453,"text":"因為高端的副董事長有說你講一句話有利人士講一句話比他們講10句還有用"},{"start":157.699,"end":172.617,"text":"所以其實您就是高端跟美國衛院相關的牽線者對不對這個是很重要的一件事情當國家有需要發展一個好的疫苗這個疫苗也證明了是有效的時候我們就應該我們要說你不好"},{"start":174.699,"end":178.065,"text":"在高端這個案子裡面您是關係人還是公正的第三方?"},{"start":189.625,"end":207.774,"text":"你今天在這邊幾乎就是高端的代言人高端的關心人啊因為你牽線的嘛不是嗎我是因為這兩個人認識所以你不是公正的第三方對不對我當然是公正的第三方我為什麼不是公正的第三方"},{"start":208.414,"end":234.273,"text":"我只是把這個好的這個genetic structure去建議他來找台灣的學者我沒有什麼是高端的副董事長在受訪裡面講得非常的清楚嘛沒有所以您不是公正的第三方我是公正的第三方而且你剛才講到的臨床試驗裡面或者是動物實驗所有的數據都登在世界上的一流的期刊"},{"start":235.073,"end":246.479,"text":"後來給EUA的免疫橋接是基本上由您來定的調碼後來衛福部只可以委員你講的完全錯誤"},{"start":249.981,"end":273.903,"text":"部長你不要上來因為這是標端這是專家沒有問題EUA這一件事情是全世界都在講的世界衛生組織在COVID-19以前就講任何有一點點基本常識的人就會做EUA這樣的做這個美意橋接的做法所以你剛才講的那個是完全不正確"},{"start":276.792,"end":299.631,"text":"然後報廢了將近170萬劑因為有人抹黑嘛謾罵所以使得他沒有使用啊這就是我剛才講的使得可以用的人沒有用所以院長你是輕忽台灣人的智商囉有人抹黑台灣人就選擇不要打高端是這個意思嗎你是看清2300萬台灣人嗎那個時候請問那個時候請問這一個在野黨怎麼樣講中共的附和者怎麼樣來講高端"},{"start":304.835,"end":314.779,"text":"因為他們擔心高端疫苗的效果比科興 比國藥好啦那我們來看他的抗體價嘛我講抗體價給你我可以請他暫停嗎我要講話好你講來 院長"},{"start":323.126,"end":344.835,"text":"你要講科學嗎我跟你講高端的營收完全是靠民進黨政府衛福部的採購你去看他的報表因為他是上市公司他的營收又是靠政府給他採購新冠疫苗跟這一次代理韓國的流感疫苗"},{"start":346.789,"end":357.78,"text":"你去看他的財報你不用贊成這是事實這不是假訊息好沒有關係重點是這一個所謂的疫苗國家隊最後是空歡喜一場虎頭蛇尾啊夠廢人民的血汗錢最後失敗收場"},{"start":367.91,"end":383.792,"text":"最好的疫苗對不對所以來院長你還要講最好的疫苗然後什麼都是民進黨執政黨對都是人民的錯在野黨的錯抹黑所以民眾不願意打高端這就是你的結論"},{"start":384.873,"end":403.743,"text":"所以我才說你也不用牽扯這麼多防疫人員降帥無能累死三軍哪三軍我跟你說就是辛苦的防疫人員跟我們2300萬的同胞要排隊買口罩排隊打疫苗排隊買快篩"},{"start":407.925,"end":429.606,"text":"高端疫苗300萬劑拯救了相近百萬的人口結果你抹煞他說他沒有效果而且全世界都說他是一個好疫苗所以你剛才講的是完全不科學沒有理性依據的說法院長請教一下Face你的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":431.257,"end":459.531,"text":"我是天主教徒我當然是贊成廢死啊贊成廢死對不對那請問現在民進黨執政黨來蔡部長你也不用來謝謝蔡總統8年任內執行了死刑2018跟2020現在還有38名的死囚在獄中其中3名有3名是殺警而被逮捕請問一下為什麼不執行"},{"start":461.212,"end":475.822,"text":"這難道不是今天公祭明天忘記嗎不是我想此行是不是要執行有一套規則在進行那這一套規則你沒有要讓保護部部長來說明所以按照這個規則這些人"},{"start":483.288,"end":495.294,"text":"按照我們的這個死刑執行的規則這些人 有些人都還在上訴過程當中所以委員 人命關天 人命關天 人命關天 人命關天有一定的死刑執行的規則你現在不讓法務部部長上來講"},{"start":505.092,"end":522.843,"text":"這就是因為你們覺得你們的講法是不正確的嘛不符合規則當然不能執行三審定讞你有沒有聽過三審定讞當然有聽過但是可以不可以有上訴可以不可以再重新審理案子可以不可以申請大法官釋憲當然可以啊幫加害人"},{"start":523.965,"end":551.786,"text":"找出路嗎沒有這回事這我完全不同意三審定讞你現在在幫所謂的加害人找出路委員你現在講的就是就是很有限的你忘了所有的死刑執行的這個規則那你現在剛才講的你根本剝奪了他們在大法官請求釋憲的這樣的一個權利啊來院長請教一下"},{"start":554.812,"end":579.005,"text":"這個賴皮寮跟五月天的事情請問一下您的女公子的房子有沒有國安特勤去守護沒有啊或者警察有沒有去站崗有還是沒有女公子的房子有還是沒有沒有沒有好那請問你贊不贊成國安特勤去站"},{"start":581.087,"end":606.55,"text":"賴清德主席賴清德副總統兒子在萬里的賴皮寮你贊不贊成這國安有國安的這個做法那這個要由國安特勤的人來做決定要由國安的人來決定所以你行政院長不用決定在我在選舉的過程當中確實是有比較高階的這樣的一個國安特勤的保護"},{"start":607.307,"end":626.04,"text":"是但是我要提醒你萬里所謂賴清德副總統的老家他的產權是他的兒子不是他你贊成讓國安特勤或者警察去佔你女公子的房子房地產嗎你贊不贊成你會不會這麼做"},{"start":629.36,"end":634.841,"text":"本席是擔任憲兵的要是我被派在那邊守他兒子的房子我會覺得很悲哀啊我會覺得很淒慘"},{"start":654.79,"end":661.497,"text":"我當一個憲兵是來報效國家的不是來替我們的特權守房子"},{"start":662.438,"end":688.92,"text":"假如他是副總統他是行政院長我死都甘願好那我跟委員做個報告啦當我是副總統的時候我到哪裡那特勤人員一定會到那一個地方去守護保護我的安全所以如果今天我有一個地方我會經常去訪問的時候那我當然就需要有特勤的保護嘛"},{"start":690.28,"end":703.025,"text":"那賴副總統因為也常常去到他萬里的老家所以那個地方副總統真的不常去所以才會有這個特性保護我想每一個人不一樣所以你問我說我的情況"},{"start":705.746,"end":727.597,"text":"我們國安的官員在簡報裡面說跟CNN說五月天被要求表明自己的政治立場而且這個情報是基於台灣在中國收集的情報調查可能跟一月的總統大選有關這件事情您知道嗎我知道好請稍等"},{"start":729.282,"end":754.882,"text":"12月28陸委會就說查證中了來這邊法務部我們蔡部長我們檢查總長邢太昭說什麼這種全國性重大的假信息要立刻澄清迅速下架溯源追查主嫌陸委會12月28就說要查現在有結果嗎有沒有"},{"start":757.17,"end":775.249,"text":"來 我們的調查局長說48小時就可以檢測升委的影片是不是偽造我們這時間不夠 所以我就直接講請問羅智政委員相關的這種不管是升委或者不是升委"},{"start":776.861,"end":787.387,"text":"復不復合全國重大假訊息應不應該立即澄清 迅速下架 溯源追查主嫌 院長你認為應不應該當然應該啊那結果呢"},{"start":793.131,"end":811.747,"text":"結果呢所以調查局有相關的東西來來來 院長不能對你有利的就選擇公布或不公布對執政黨立委不利的就選擇公布或不公布所以當時行政院副院長的"},{"start":812.768,"end":813.789,"text":"你原本是個老實人啊"},{"start":836.344,"end":840.409,"text":"進入政治圈真的被帶壞是否是中國屆選一切都結束不是這樣嗎賴副總統在第一時間就為我們羅委員說這是中國屆選的身為影片"},{"start":860.987,"end":861.807,"text":"現在已經在做了"},{"start":885.206,"end":891.392,"text":"答案呢馬上1月13號投票啦你執政黨的參選人副總統就說是中國界選嘛需要時間 院長你看清楚調查局長王俊麗說48小時48小時"},{"start":911.377,"end":922.396,"text":"那你至少要先公布這事實不是身為嘛那你如果你公布了以後影響了偵查的這個程序呢所以你現在講的都是片段的事情"},{"start":923.632,"end":934.482,"text":"我完全沒有 我講的就是科學嘛 我講的就是正確的程序最重要的就是要真實的事情 真下我沒有抹紅抹黑因為你要有你的歷史定位你絕對"},{"start":950.836,"end":956.665,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"149087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149087","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689e52f1487956ab6a8826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50010d55363ceb03ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"14:46:20 - 15:02:08","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-01-09T15:02:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T14:46:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請我們行政院陳建仁陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有我們衛福部的薛部長。"],["陳院長建仁：莊委員午安。"],["莊委員瑞雄：院長午安。今天這個議題、關於今天這整個臨時會，我有一個很大的感慨，其實我們在相同的地方，也就是在院會針對整個疫苗專案報告和指定議題的報告就有3次，我相信薛部長最清楚，在衛環委員會你們就有6次……"],["薛部長瑞元：十幾次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我說6次是指調閱小組。在財政委員會的疫苗專報是2次，在經濟委員會是1次，在衛環委員會關於疫苗的專報就有12次，所以我真的很感慨！2022年11月26日九合一大選到現在一年多，都沒有人要談這個，現在距離選舉只剩四、五天才排這個專案報告，這很明顯完全就是一個政治上的攻防。但是本席認為這個議題讓院長來講還是最適合，因為院長畢竟是公衛出身。","其實臺灣經過這一場百年大疫，全體國人同胞由政府部門帶領，上下共同團結在抗疫，我相信大家都盡心盡力了。到了後疫情時代，今天排這一場，我還特別去問了媒體朋友：你聽到現在，感覺怎麼樣？答案就是「冷飯熱炒」4個字，炒得起來、炒不起來不知道。但是我要來就教院長的就是，我的好朋友邱顯智今天在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題：高端疫苗到底有沒有決標的公告？我聽了以後覺得院長必須要再澄清，因為我擔心外面會有所誤解。按照整個政府採購法的規定，涉及機密採購的部分倒未必會有一定要決標的問題，我很擔心的就是，其他的疫苗到底有沒有決標上的公告？還有，早上院長這樣回答是口誤，還是幕僚提供的資訊有錯誤的地方？是不是請薛部長對這個地方再做一個澄清好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝委員。這個部分應該更精確來講，開標、決標都是按照程序來，決標之後的話，本來我們就是要把資料上傳到工程會的這個網站。但是根據政府採購法第六十一條和它的施行細則第八十四條，如果是涉及商業機密的這種機密採購的話，我們可以不公告，機關可以不公告，但是仍然必須要將未刊登的決標資料傳到工程會的資料庫裡面去。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這麼細的東西，很顯然啦！院長早上的回答我很擔心……"],["陳院長建仁：我有講得比較簡單。"],["莊委員瑞雄：造成一個誤會，藉這個機會，也讓院長跟部長來做一個澄清。其實我一直在想說這個議題之所以會吵這麼久，經過這麼長的時間沉寂了，總統大選剩下幾天要投票了，我看整個網路上一直在講，這個有理都已經講不清了。本席本身學法，大家一直在談整個高端疫苗的契約要封存30年，網路上都在講這個，我聽到整個頭都一個頭兩個大你知道嗎？你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在臺灣這樣的一個假訊息蔓延以後，積非到最後會成是，所以部長，我要請教你的是，你是不是可以在這個地方再重新說明一次，衛福部你們所謂的保存重要公文，大家知道是30年，但是高端這一個契約你們到底是多久以後才能讓外界知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：根據雙方的保密協定，契約裡面的保密協定的話是5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：5年？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是最後交貨之後5年我們就可以解密，但是這一個所謂30年是我們公文必須要保存30年，隨時以備不時之需可以來調閱。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以高端採購這樣的一個契約，說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息？"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假消息。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果是其他疫苗的採購，你說AZ不用保密，還是說Novavax不用保密，BNT不用保密，只有高端要保密，這有鬼囉！這我看來就有鬼囉！但是如果其他……我想請教BNT是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT的話是10年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：保密10年？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，保密10年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：Novavax是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：Novavax的話是7年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：7年，AZ是5年？"],["薛部長瑞元：5年。"],["莊委員瑞雄：嘿！整個網路這樣跟你說，說沒有喔！只有高端要這樣保密、要掩蓋30年，聽到頭殼都會大啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這是錯假的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這樣來做一個澄清，我覺得是好事。你看喔！今天在野黨所提出來的一個問題，我反而也在這個地方想再問一次，就是當初整個緊急授權EUA，他現在跟你說有那麼多的審查委員是不記名的，在我來看，以現在來看當年的話，如果說我是那個委員的話，我也會怕耶！如果緊急授權我投反對，國內需要疫苗，那我壓力有多大，等一下說我在阻擋疫苗；我如果投贊成，人家又會罵我說是不是在圖利財團，這個我倒覺得也很麻煩，在當時的時空背景之下，這一些委員你說你們當初採取的是不記名，到底部長是在考量什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：如同剛剛委員所提到的，因為現在網路非常的發達，所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話，那的確會造成一些困擾，但是我們所有的會議資料，我們都已經公開，只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以當初你們採不記名，也有他特殊的考量這些時空因素存在啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要請法務部長蔡部長也上來一下，衛福部部長請回。我一直在想說整個高端裡面，我相信很多在野黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利，或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪瀆，我要請問部長的是，我們現在查高端，大家去跟你們檢舉，檢方就馬上去查辦，現在有幾件是不起訴的？"],["蔡部長清祥：63件，都已經查清楚了，沒有不法的情事。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟部長報告，今天這個案子如果讓你重新再回到你以前檢察官的一個專業的話，你也是「頭殼𢯾咧燒」啦！今天這個也來檢舉，那個也來檢舉，我今天告蔡英文，明天我告蘇貞昌，再來我告陳時中、告陳建仁院長、告薛瑞元部長，大家如果這樣搞，不論是報紙看到的，還是憑感覺的，你要怎麼辦？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員報告，後來在今年1月的時候，還有人提出3件，這3件目前還在偵辦當中，所以雖然是簽結，但是簽結是沒有確定力的，你如果懷疑，還有證據有涉嫌犯罪，還可以再拿出來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然有新事證的話，司法機關本來就是毋枉毋縱，這個案子就現在來看，我反而會認為國人對於有任何貪瀆的疑慮，他本來就是希望我們司法機關來查辦，可是碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件，我相信大多數的民眾也會認為又來了，因為選舉又來了，這個大家看了也都會很討厭，讓整個司法機關整天在那邊忙得要命。但是我在這個地方也要求，部長，如果有任何新事證的話，我相信大家在國會裡面，高端幾乎是被在野黨打臭掉了，但是你說這個案到最後是不是有任何人涉案，或者是高端的高層，我要求我們司法機關也必須要毋枉毋縱。"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，一定會的，依法辦事嘛！如果有事實、有證據來證明，我們當然依法處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：濫訴的情形不是只有高端而已，很多啦！動不動就告官員瀆職、圖利，我們檢察官大概要花很多時間在處理這些案子。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒辦法，臺灣是一個高度民主的社會，我記得我以前在當臺北市議員的時候，我那時候看李登輝老總統都已經是卸任了，在監察院前面那邊站著兩個多死忠的，你知道嗎？每天站在那邊喊槍斃李登輝、槍斃李登輝，我從那邊過去，我每天和他們打招呼，有夠厲害！有時候意識形態，或者他選擇他自己所相信的，這個到最後怎麼解決？還是真的不得不由司法啦。所以這部分我也要求毋枉毋縱。","蔡部長請回，我繼續要請教院長的是，今天既然大家是因為高端在開臨時會，大家一直在講，我記得當初在批評高端的時候，當初也講高端好像符水，甚至說什麼高端打下去都無效，甚至於講謀財害命，我要在這個地方特別感謝院長，因為前幾天我自己的父親過世，院長也親自到我家裡面，我的父親今年90歲，我記得當初疫情來的時候，大家都打AZ，有的人打下去之後發燒了。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒有錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有的人打下去都很難受，我爸爸當時第一劑也是打AZ，你還叫他打第二劑，再怎麼樣他都不去打。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒錯，有副作用。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟他說要打疫苗，他不要，不要就是不要，我非常感謝的是，後來總統還有院長您，還有我們部會首長帶頭施打，我也不知道那個打了之後有沒有效果，我也都不知道，我的想法是陳建仁大仁哥，大家都叫你大仁哥，你有公衛背景，我們信賴你，看你打了，因此我帶我爸爸去打，我爸爸因為看你打了，因此才去打，我跟爸爸說相信陳建仁就對了。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還好度過了，所以我要特別來感謝。可是我現在回想起來，我必須要提到在野黨朋友的一個質疑，你說高端以現在來看，雖然疫情過去了，大家今天在問高端到底好或不好？到底有沒有國際認證？這部分我要請教院長。"],["陳院長建仁：好，這個部分有三點可以向委員報告，第一個就是高端曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過3期的臨床試驗，而且在巴拉圭也取得了EUA，另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床3期的研究，是在世界上三個國家來進行，後來世界衛生組織也跟高端有合約，用它的技轉來讓其他的國家可以使用高端的技術，更重要的就是最近在1月份的時候，很有名的國際期刊叫做新興傳染病的期刊，它就刊登了我們臺灣的真實世界數據，發現高端的效果和莫德納以及BNT是一樣的，比AZ還好，當然，比起科興、國藥更好，所以高端確實是個很好的、有國際認證的好疫苗。很可惜在當時，因為大家不斷地抹黑，像有些怕副作用的人，他不想去打，反而沒有機會來打高端，這樣的抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人就放棄了高端，這就是很多老人家沒有預防接種的理由嘛！這樣子的話，就喪失了這個預防、打高端的機會的話，說老實話，我們是相當地不捨，這樣會使得這些老人家容易死於COVID-19，而事實也顯示，臺灣的老人家打COVID-19的比較少，我們本來當時的想法，高端如果副作用比較小，又有這麼好的效果，就應該讓怕副作用的人來接種，可是沒有，因為抹黑得太厲害，所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣隨便抹黑，實際上造成臺灣老人家不願意打高端度苗，這也是讓我很心痛的事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以很顯然，經過科學認證它不是符水，其實我們也希望國人同胞不要口水，來尊重這樣的科學，但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長，還有我們衛福部，針對疫苗的不良反應，我相信這一些也有很多委員辦公室收到民眾的陳情，也就是施打疫苗以後不適狀況的這些申請案件。因為我國疫苗接種受害的救濟申請的門檻算是最低的，所以會特別多，我們也希望在整個嚴謹的程序之下、在科學的認證之下，這個部分行政部門可以加快腳步，讓民眾不會覺得疫情過去了，我忍受這麼多的痛苦……"],["陳院長建仁：而且八千多件已經處理了六千多件了，剩下一千多件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個部分請行政院再加油。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。","接下來請李委員德維質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"me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院會啊針對整個疫苗專案報告跟指定議題的報告就有三次三次因為未完委員會啊這個我相信薛部長你也最清楚了你們就有六次這財政委員會啊六次是釣魚小組這財政委員會呢 疫苗的專報兩次"},{"start":57.832,"end":84.663,"text":"經濟委員會緊蓋國安委員會關於疫苗的一個專報就12次所以我很感激這個在2022年11月26號這個九合一的一個大選到現在2月沒有人要說這個選舉剩4、5天這個很明顯就完全就是一個政治上的一個攻防"},{"start":85.629,"end":88.692,"text":"但是本席還是認為說這個議題還是讓院長來講還是最適合因為院長畢竟是公衛出身其實在臺灣經過這一場百年大議"},{"start":100.27,"end":127.193,"text":"那大家全體上下國人同胞有政府部門帶領那大家共同在團結在抗議我相信大家都盡心盡力的到了這個整個後疫情時代今天排這一場我還特別去問了媒體的朋友說你聽到現在你會覺得怎麼樣四個字冷飯熱炒炒得起來炒不起來不知道但是我要來救教院長就是說"},{"start":129.172,"end":157.886,"text":"我的好朋友啊秋選之間在質詢的時候有問到你一個問題就是說高端疫苗到底有沒有這個整個絕標的一個公告這樣的一個問題啊我聽了以後啊我會覺得院長必須要再澄清因為我擔心外面會有所誤解啊因為按照整個政府的一個採購法裡面啊涉及到啊整個機密採購的部分喔那個到未必會有一定要"},{"start":158.53,"end":158.85,"text":"謝謝委員這部分應該更精確來講"},{"start":188.991,"end":197.56,"text":"開標、決標這個都按照程序來決標之後的話本來我們就是要把資料上傳到這個工程會的這個網站"},{"start":199.81,"end":226.385,"text":"但是根據政府採購法第61條跟它的施行細則第84條如果涉及到商業機密的這種機密採購的話那我們可以不公告 機關可以不公告但是必須要將未刊登的這個絕標的資料傳到 仍然要傳到工程會的這個資料庫裡面去"},{"start":229.162,"end":255.351,"text":"這麼細的東西那很顯然院長早上的一個回答我很擔心造成一個誤會接這個機會也讓院長跟部長來做一個澄清那其實我一直在想說這個議題之所以會吵這麼久那經過這麼長的時間成績了總統大選剩下幾天要投票了我看整個網路上一直在講這個有理都已經講不清了本席本身學法"},{"start":256.465,"end":276.51,"text":"那大家一直在談到說整個高端這個疫苗啊什麼這個整個契約啊要封存30年我聽到這個網絡都在說這個我聽到整個台港一台舖都兩粒大你知道嗎你也不曉得該怎麼樣去講說在台灣這樣的一個假訊期這樣蔓延以後啊機非到最後會成事啊所以不對"},{"start":277.39,"end":278.95,"text":"根據雙方的保密協定7月裏面的保密協定是5年"},{"start":300.711,"end":302.532,"text":"所以高端採購這樣的一個契約說這個契約30年要封存是一個假訊息 錯的訊息所以"},{"start":327.435,"end":347.83,"text":"如果說其他的疫苗的一個採購 你說AZ人不用保密 或是NOVAX不用保密 BNT不用保密 只有高端來保密 這有鬼囉 這我看來就有鬼囉但是如果其他 我要請教的 BNT是幾年 BNT的話是10年"},{"start":348.732,"end":349.853,"text":"當初整個緊急授權EUA"},{"start":378.952,"end":399.31,"text":"他現在跟你說那些深渣的委員齁 那不記名在我來看 以現在來看當年的話如果說我是那個委員的話 我也會怕咧我若跟你投反對 緊急授權我跟你反對啊國內需要疫苗 我壓力比較大 等於說我在阻擋疫苗啊我若跟你投贊成 人家還會跟我說我是不是在圖利財團"},{"start":408.897,"end":418.912,"text":"這個我倒覺得反而也很麻煩在當時的一個時空背景之下那這一些委員 你說你們當初採取的不記名到底補定 到底再考量一下"},{"start":419.908,"end":440.02,"text":"如同剛剛委員所提到的因為現在網路非常的發達所以如果把委員的姓名揭露的話那的確會造成一些困擾但是我們所有的這個會議的資料我們都已經公開只是委員用ABC的代號去取代而已"},{"start":440.709,"end":466.234,"text":"所以說當初你們就是說才不記名也有他特殊的一個考量這一些時空因素存在啦我要請法務部長蔡部長也請上來一下就是說向法務部部長請回啦那我一直在想說整個高端裡面我相信很多在黨的朋友會拿出來這樣去講說是不是有圖利或者說這個過程裡面有沒有牽扯到誰貪圖"},{"start":470.061,"end":492.182,"text":"我請問部長就是說,我們現在查高端,大家去自己檢紀,我們檢方就馬上去做一個查辦,現在有幾件是不起訴的?63件,就已經都查清楚了,沒有不法的情勢我跟部長報告,今天你做這個案子,如果讓你重新再回到你以前的一個專業的話,你老闆你也不要再燒了"},{"start":495.502,"end":505.791,"text":"今天那個要檢舉啦我今天叫蔡英文啦明天叫我蘇貞昌啦再來叫我程時中啦我來叫程建仁院長我來叫薛瑞仁水部長大家要創創的、補助看到的還是憑感覺的你怎麼辦?跟委員報告齁阿伯今年一月的時候還有人提出三件所以這三件還要牧場辦中間啦所以"},{"start":523.078,"end":550.698,"text":"雖然是牽結啦但是牽結是沒有確定力的你如果說懷疑還有證據有涉嫌犯罪可以再提出來那當然有新事實新事證的話司法機關本來就是誤法誤王誤眾這個案子到現在來看的話我反而會認為說國人對有任何貪圖的一個疑慮的話他本來就是希望我們司法機關來做一個查辦可是呢"},{"start":552.085,"end":579.568,"text":"碰到選舉的時候再來談這種案件的話我相信大多數的民眾會認為說他再來啊 又因為選舉再來啊這個看了大家也都會很討厭讓我們兩個司法機關齁你整天在那裡沒人要死去啦沒人要死去啦但是我在這個地方也要求啦部長如果有任何新事證的話我相信大家在國會裡面啊碰到高端幾乎是被在野黨打的打臭掉啦但是呢"},{"start":581.581,"end":606.586,"text":"你說這個案﹖到最後是不是有任何人去涉案的話﹖或者高端的高層的話﹖我要求我們司法機關也必須要勿妄勿縱當然一定會的依法辦事嘛﹖如果有事實﹖有證據來證明﹖那我們當然依法處理濫訴的情形不是高端而已很少的動不動就告官員瀆職圖利"},{"start":608.732,"end":624.19,"text":"我們檢察官大概要花很多的時間都在處理這些案子沒辦法我懂台灣是一個高度的一個民主的一個社會民眾稍微我記得我以前在當台北市議員的時候"},{"start":625.816,"end":626.196,"text":"蔡部長請回我繼續要來請教院長就是說"},{"start":653.982,"end":682.484,"text":"今天既然是高端大家在做這個臨時會大家一直在講說我記得當初在批評高端的時候你看當初也講說這高端怎麼扶我出去甚至什麼高端跑下去都很不好甚至於講說磨柴害命在這個地方我要特別感謝院長因為我前幾天我自己的父親或是院長親自到我家裡面"},{"start":683.988,"end":711.494,"text":"我記得我當初我的父親今年90歲當初疫情來的時候大家都打AZ有的打下去發燒有的打下去都很艱難爸爸等到第1期也去打AZ你再叫他打第1期他安卓打他就不要去打對 沒錯有副作用那你去打疫苗他不要我就是都不要"},{"start":712.711,"end":738.531,"text":"我非常感謝就是說其實後來總統還有院長您還有我們部會的所長去帶頭我也不知道說那個主席好不好我也都不知道我的想法是說成見人大人都叫你大人哥你就有公衛背景我們信賴你你打蠟我剛才帶我老伯去我老伯英語這樣我看你在拍"},{"start":739.309,"end":740.61,"text":"這部份有三點可以向委員報告第一就是高端"},{"start":769.802,"end":795.008,"text":"曾經在巴拉圭跟泰國做過三期的臨床試驗而且在巴拉圭取得了EUA另外世界衛生組織也幫高端去做臨床三期的研究是在世界上三個國家來進行後來世界衛生組織也跟高端來"},{"start":797.282,"end":824.173,"text":"這一個有合約來用他的這個計轉來給其他的國家來可以使用高端的技術那更重要的就是最近一月份的時候很有名的國際期刊叫做新型傳染病的期刊他就刊登了我們臺灣的真實世界的數據發現高端的效果是和莫德納跟BNT是一樣的比AZ還好那當然比這個科興跟國藥更好"},{"start":824.949,"end":840.542,"text":"所以高端確實是一個很好的有國際認證的好的疫苗很可惜在當時因為大家不斷的抹黑像有些有副作用的人他不想去打反而沒有機會來打高端那這樣一個抹黑反而造成了可以打高端的人"},{"start":840.942,"end":840.962,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":870.982,"end":895.823,"text":"所以我覺得某一些人士或者是境外勢力的唱和者這樣的隨便抹黑實際上造成台灣老人家不願意打高端疫苗這也是讓我很心痛的事情所以很顯然這個經過科學認證它不是撫水我們也希望國人同胞不要口水來尊重這個科學"},{"start":896.991,"end":922.7,"text":"但是我在這個地方要特別提醒院長還有衛福部就是說針對疫苗的一個不良的反應我相信這一些也很多委員的辦公室也受到民眾的懲罰就施打疫苗以後不是的一個狀況這些申請的一個案件因為我國疫苗接種受害的一個救濟申請的門檻我們算最低所以會特別多我們也希望"},{"start":934.276,"end":940.662,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"149086","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149086","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee6899895c0b83a3fc809826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50caa74d82ca9087435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"14:30:35 - 14:46:07","影片長度":"00:15:32","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":932,"end_time":"2024-01-09T14:46:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T14:30:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":34,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（14時30分）謝謝院長，有請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：陳院長，請。"],["陳院長建仁：游委員午安。"],["游委員毓蘭：院長午安。"],["陳院長建仁：午安。"],["游委員毓蘭：院長辛苦了！因為早上您一再強調說，因為契約有保密條款的要求，所以不能夠公開高端的採購合約。可不可以請你告訴我們這個保密條款的文字內容？因為保密條款本身的文字內容是不必保密的。"],["陳院長建仁：保密條款的文字內容等一下，我看一下。"],["游委員毓蘭：時間可以暫停一下，要不然請薛部長幫忙講一下好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["游委員毓蘭：保密條款的文字內容，請。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我先唸第一個：雙方同意訂定本保密合約為雙方遵循之依據。這是合約的起頭。然後是機密資料的部分：本合約所謂機密性資料計包括採購單價、原物料價格等商業採購相關訊息、取得方式，包括（不限於）口頭、文字、書寫、錄音等等。接下來還有：機密性資料取得之日期不論其為本合約簽署日之前或之後均屬之。"],["游委員毓蘭：OK，好。"],["陳院長建仁：在開始的時候就訂定這是一個保密……"],["游委員毓蘭：所以這個就是我們的保密條款嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：對，這是保密的。"],["游委員毓蘭：所以您是有依據的。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：好，謝謝。請薛部長回座。","我不知道院長你有沒有看到最近蔡總統拍了一部小電影，還滿好看的？"],["陳院長建仁：有。"],["游委員毓蘭：有看了嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：因為現在蔡總統不是只有在路上，蔡總統還在錄音帶上，所以我接下來要請教一下，其實法務部在去年年底就已經講了，說最高檢從去年12月11日到今年1月5日止，全權處理全國性重大假訊息案件，而且會指派主任檢察官跟檢察官來負責偵辦，針對影響選舉的假訊息，執法部門法務部、地檢署、調查局要立即澄清、迅速下架、溯源追查主嫌。我剛剛唸的都沒錯嘛？蔡部長已經上來了，沒錯嘛？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：這是為了要避免中共介選啦！所以我剛才講說蔡總統的小電影叫做「在路上」，可是現在變成「在錄音帶上」啦！因為最近我們看到我們的同事羅致政委員被公布了各種不同的影音資料，有A片，也有影射可能是跟蔡總統的對話等等，我覺得茲事體大。不管是真是假，部長，這不是符合我剛剛唸的，你們一開始說的要有一個打擊假訊息的迅速偵辦中心的重要意旨嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：是。"],["游委員毓蘭：沒錯吧！對不對？所以你就不可以說這是個人隱私、這是私德問題，這已經不是了！雖然我跟蔡總統不屬同一個黨派，但他是我的國家元首，我覺得當他被人家錄音，我現在還搞不清楚這個錄音帶內容的真假等等，可是因為裡面有一些內容我知道也是我們在外交及國防委員會常常聽到，比如說羅致政委員有時候也會談起的，但是我會擔心羅致政委員當過國防及外交委員會的召委，這會不會是一個國安的漏洞？我覺得法務部或最高檢都不可以等閒視之，不是嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：這一件事情當然是相當的重要，所以我今天早上已經講得很清楚了，這一件事情我們完全支持檢調單位積極查辦，並且很快的掌握相關報導，那語音檔的內容是不是有偷錄、深偽或涉及介選，都要由鑑識機關來進行相關的鑑識。這一件事情是相當的重要，我相信部長也有這樣的一個看法。"],["游委員毓蘭：對，我是建議絕對不可以像破唱盤一樣跳針說中共介選，用中共介選遮掩掉很多我們政府該作為而不作為，我們自己不認真辦案，這是我再怎麼樣都無法忍受的。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我覺得他們沒有不認真辦案，我是支持他們要儘快查明真相，好好的來偵辦這件事情。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，包括剛剛沒有出現的洪申翰委員最近也深陷這種風暴，我覺得對他們來講，他們也都很需要一個真相，如果這件事情對他們是謠言的話，要趕快查明，千萬不要像過去吳敦義的錄音帶風波，等到查出來之後，都說是假的時候，他都已經落選，都已經變成既定的現實了。"],["陳院長建仁：現在深偽的作法相當的多，五花八門，所以在鑑識的工作上我們也會積極來努力，那更重要的就是我們在打詐行動綱領1.5有購置一些儀器設備，能夠作更精準的鑑識，還有追查訊息來源，所以這部分我相信檢調單位還有刑事警察局也會來好好的偵辦。"],["游委員毓蘭：是的，剛剛院長講到重點，深偽的技術雖然不斷升高，可是道高一尺魔高一丈，我們希望現在是魔高一尺，道要高好幾丈才可以。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，這就是我們努力的方向。"],["游委員毓蘭：所以一定要支持包括第一線的檢調警都要有足夠的工具。其實我剛剛秀給大家看的，你們去年年底說有一個專責小組，我看到裡面有一個主任檢察官，就是我們鑑識系的校友，他也是鑑識專家，但是不可以讓這群精兵去打一個沒有工具的仗，所以一定要請院長、部長支持第一線的員警，要讓有責任的人也要有權力，而不要因為有太多政治的考量，譬如現在因為選舉期間暫時不要辦。有的時候就是要神速，就是要很快的把這個事情，如果它是假訊息，馬上公布的話至少不會繼續擴大，否則，我覺得我的同事羅致政現在也一定很頭痛，因為一下子錄音帶，一下子A片，現在聽說又有20支高清的帶子，我覺得檢調應該要勇敢的負起責任。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們會加強來做，而且我要在這裡跟委員報告，我們鑑識的設備，基本上很多媒體都錯誤報導說我們打詐1.5行動綱領花了27億是去做裝潢，這完全是錯誤的，實際上我們就是精進儀器設備。然後像那個Linbay好油這些案子，還有一些黨工有1,000個帳號，我們都能夠查出來，所以我們絕對會積極來偵辦這件事情，查個水落石出，盡早讓真相能夠解凍。"],["游委員毓蘭：我們也要請院長跟部長承諾，因為我們現在聽到的是都已經查出那個A片不是深偽製造，但是現在因為偵查不公開，不對外公布，或者是因為當事人，那你既然要說那A片的當事人，那你就是直接影射羅致政就是當事人。我要跟部長、院長唸出一段，這是在網路間流傳的，我的同學傳給我，內容是高端合約要業者同意才能公布，立委的性愛光碟也要當事人同意才能公布，這個政府的公權力是睡死了嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想……"],["游委員毓蘭：高端是全民買單，立委是外交及國防委員會，包括趙天麟委員的那個小三風波也是一樣的，政府跟司法單位不可以明目張膽地去護短，這個我是完全同意的。"],["陳院長建仁：我們完全沒有護短，而且我在這裡再跟委員報告，政府的誠信很重要、政府的威信很重要，但是政府威信的建立，不是像在威權獨裁國家那樣子地壓迫經濟……"],["游委員毓蘭：沒錯、沒錯，是。"],["陳院長建仁：各個企業，這樣的話沒有辦法。政府有簽約，就要維持自己的誠信，那政府當然也來勸這一個企業來發表……"],["游委員毓蘭：院長，我百分之三百同意我們一定要有捍衛我們民主法治這樣的決心跟能力，但是我們絕對不可以用中國介選為藉口，然後進行司法介選之實，因為昨天……"],["陳院長建仁：中國有沒有介選的話還需要偵查。"],["游委員毓蘭：還要去偵查？"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是有些偵查的就很奇怪了，因為……"],["陳院長建仁：所有的深偽製造，我們如果查到這個來源，也許是從境外進來的，那當然就要……就像我剛才講的那個Linbay好油，就是這樣查，查到境外去再查回來的，還有那個黨工的1,000個帳號也是這樣查出來的。"],["游委員毓蘭：好好地查。"],["蔡部長清祥：好。"],["游委員毓蘭：好好地辦。"],["陳院長建仁：好，一定。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是絕對不可以動用檢調、司法來介選，讓他們……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["游委員毓蘭：產生寒蟬效應。比如我的PPT上面右邊的這位劉佳昇警官，他只不過講了「兩岸一家親」、「子子孫孫要和平」，就用反滲透法去辦他。我覺得我們警察，我這麼多年來在警察大學，我都告訴我的學生們，我們是行政中立，但是我們捍衛和平，我們不是戰爭的工具，所以和平沒有什麼不對的，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們是一定毋枉毋縱。"],["游委員毓蘭：是。"],["蔡部長清祥：絕對沒有司法介選這回事。我們都是因為有涉嫌犯罪，檢調才會啟動偵查的，所以絕對不是司法介選這一回事。"],["游委員毓蘭：但是所有的里長一回來，只要到中國大陸回來的，馬上……"],["蔡部長清祥：因為他有涉嫌刑責，所以才會接受到約詢或是調查，所以這些不是針對什麼特定的團體或人。"],["游委員毓蘭：大家最近在辦這個也未免太積極了，好像其他的詐騙案都不存在一樣。","不過，接下來我比較關心的倒是我們的退休金問題，因為本席即將卸任，要回去領退休金。到底我們要不要漲這4%？"],["陳院長建仁：我想退休金的調漲有法律上的規定，如果是經過4年或者物價指數累積超過5%的時候……"],["游委員毓蘭：超過5%。"],["陳院長建仁：就應該檢討。"],["游委員毓蘭：就應該要嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：我們主計總處已經做一個估算。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，因為本席已經多次提出質詢。"],["陳院長建仁：已經……看起來是超過5%。"],["游委員毓蘭：是。"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們現在啟動一個討論的機制，由考試院跟……"],["游委員毓蘭：只不過剛剛好在選前才去講這件事，大家認為這是選舉的……"],["陳院長建仁：不，這個本來……"],["游委員毓蘭：其實不是。"],["陳院長建仁：不是喔！不是。"],["游委員毓蘭：因為我們法律上……"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["游委員毓蘭：法律上就規定，因為本席其實在蘇貞昌院長的時候也提過，甚至於……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們去年7、8月在預算書送到大院的時候……"],["游委員毓蘭：對，就已經……"],["朱主計長澤民：就有編列這筆預算，所以跟選舉完全無關。"],["游委員毓蘭：對，預估了、預估了。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["游委員毓蘭：因為預估了，因為這個……"],["陳院長建仁：……是預估。"],["游委員毓蘭：也不用再講說我們的德政，因為事實上累積就已經超過了，2.95%加2.50%是5.45%，早就超過了，也就是理論上你們在……"],["陳院長建仁：最後的精算。"],["游委員毓蘭：你們在那個時候，今年元月1日就應該要開始了。"],["陳院長建仁：我們預估啦！我們預估可能會超過5%。"],["游委員毓蘭：主計長你剛好上來，我也提過很多次，我希望對於高齡的家庭的CPI，不應該是……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們已經有公布了，相關單位可以參考。"],["游委員毓蘭：是，我這邊也有弄出來，這也是你們公布的，因為高齡的CPI遠高於全國平均的CPI，所以這是一個……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有遠高於，大概0.2%啦！"],["游委員毓蘭：不止啊！原來那邊是5.45%，這邊是5.92%，5.92%比5.45%不是只有高0.2%……"],["朱主計長澤民：不，我說兩年、兩年。"],["游委員毓蘭：抱歉……"],["朱主計長澤民：一年大概0.2%。"],["游委員毓蘭：主計長，我是要愛惜你的羽毛，我怕你到時候又變成那個蚵仔麵線20塊一樣，這個對於我們……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，他是講一年。"],["朱主計長澤民：一年，一年0.2%。"],["游委員毓蘭：沒有，我們的法律文字上是累積喔！我們本來就是累積的。所以對我們的CPI，我很希望要修就把它修得比較好，應該有針對高齡家庭的CPI，這樣會更早達到可以調整的標準，所以在這個部分其實……"],["陳院長建仁：法律不是這樣寫的啦！法律沒有分年齡，CPI在那個原來的法律裡面是寫物價指數累計……"],["游委員毓蘭：所以我們可以修法嘛！我們可以修法，因為退休族群就是屬於高齡……"],["陳院長建仁：修法我們……"],["朱主計長澤民：修法要尊重大院。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["游委員毓蘭：既然要修，本席本來也希望你們能夠稍微更敏感一點，這些都是我們當時在立法院裡面……"],["陳院長建仁：這是年改本來就有的法，用來照顧退休的軍公教人員。"],["游委員毓蘭：我的時間已經快要用完了，最後我還是很關心在死刑存廢上的相關爭論，因為我們看到新北那個國中生被狂砍十幾刀之後送醫，第一天輸血就達6萬cc，我希望我們的少年事件處理法一定要有配套措施，要讓孩子們能夠在臺灣平安長大，好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來檢討。"],["主席：好，謝謝游委員。","接下來請莊委員瑞雄質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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有請行政院陳院長陳院長請"},{"start":20.302,"end":22.943,"text":"保密條款的文字內容我等一下的看一下"},{"start":50.538,"end":51.098,"text":"法密條款的文字內容請"},{"start":72.127,"end":81.291,"text":"雙方同意訂定本保密合約為雙方遵循之依據本合約所謂機密性資料據包括採購的單價、原物料價格等商業採購相關訊息取得的方式"},{"start":90.646,"end":100.597,"text":"包括不限於口頭、文字、書寫、錄音等等那機密性資料取得之日期﹐不論其為本合約簽署日之前或之後均屬之"},{"start":101.875,"end":103.457,"text":"蔡總統拍了一部小電影還蠻好看的有"},{"start":125.693,"end":152.479,"text":"因為現在不是只有蔡總統在路上蔡總統還在錄音帶上所以我才會接下來要請教一下因為我們法務部其實在去年年底就已經講了說他依照這個他們最高檢就從去年的12月11日到今年1月5日子全權處理全國性重大假訊息案件而且會指派主任檢察官"},{"start":153.475,"end":167.827,"text":"與檢察官負責偵辦,針對影響選舉的假訊息,執法部門、法務部、地檢署、調查局,要立即澄清,迅速下架,溯源追查主權。"},{"start":177.235,"end":184.963,"text":"蔡總統的小電影叫《在路上》可是現在變成《在路應帶上》因為最近我們看到我們"},{"start":186.26,"end":208.466,"text":"的同事羅智政委員他被公布的有各種不同的不同的資料影音資料有A片的也有裡面就是影射可能是跟蔡總統的對話這些我覺得這個是知識體大不管是真是假"},{"start":210.147,"end":231.607,"text":"這不符合我剛剛念的你們在一開始的時候要有一個打假的假訊息的這個迅速偵辦中心的你們重要的意志不是嗎?是沒錯吧 對不對所以你就不可以說這個是個人隱私啦這是私德問題這已經不是因為"},{"start":233.696,"end":240.725,"text":"雖然我跟蔡總統不屬於同一個黨派但是他是我的國家元首"},{"start":241.414,"end":265.513,"text":"我覺得當他被人家錄音我現在還搞不清楚我還搞不清楚這個錄音帶的內容的真假等等的可是因為裡面有一些內容我知道這也是我們在國防外交委員會常常聽到比如說羅智政委員有時候也會談起的但是我會擔心啊羅智政委員他是當過國防外交委員會的"},{"start":267.443,"end":274.388,"text":"這件事情當然是相當的重要所以我今天早上已經講得很清楚這一件事情的話我們完全支持我們檢調單位要來的積極查辦"},{"start":295.499,"end":312.036,"text":"並且很快的來掌握相關的報導與殷黨的內容是不是有透露身為或者涉及藉選都要由鑑識機關來進行相關的鑑識這件事情是相當的重要我相信部長也有這樣的一個看法"},{"start":312.786,"end":334.129,"text":"對 我是建議絕對不可以就是因為我們說就像破唱盤一樣跳針一樣說中共借血你用一個中共借血你就遮掩掉很多我們政府該作為而不作為我們自己不認真辦案這個是我再怎麼樣我都無法忍受的沒有 我覺得他們沒有不認真辦案我是支持他們要"},{"start":334.639,"end":336.16,"text":"對他們來講他們也都很需要一個真相如果"},{"start":353.01,"end":381.805,"text":"這件事情對他們是謠言的話我們趕快把千萬不要像過去吳敦義的這個錄音帶風波等到這個查出來之後都說這個是假的時候他都已經落選都已經變成制定的現實現在的這個身為的做法相當的多五發八門所以在建設的工作上我們也會積極來努力那更重要的就是"},{"start":382.318,"end":399.866,"text":"我們在打造這個行動方案行動綱領1.5的時候有構置了一些儀器設備能夠做更精準的這樣的一個鑑識的工作那還有追查這個訊息來源所以這個部分我相信"},{"start":400.287,"end":425.376,"text":"我們檢調單位還有這個新市警察局也會來好好的來偵辦所以剛剛院長講到重點身為的技術雖然不斷升高可是道高一尺磨高一丈但是我們希望現在是磨高一尺我們道要高好幾丈才可以所以一定要支持包括我們第一線的檢調警都要有足夠的工具"},{"start":425.976,"end":452.432,"text":"其實我看到剛剛我就給大家看了你們去年年底說我們有個專責小組我看到裡面有一個檢察官有主任檢察官就是我們建市我們自己建市系的校友他也是建市專家但是不可以讓這一群精兵去打一個沒有工具的戰所以一定要請這個院長部長你們要支持第一線的員警要讓"},{"start":453.413,"end":478.713,"text":"有責任的人也要有權利而不要因為有太多政治的考量現在因為這個選舉期間暫時不要有的時候就是要神速我們就是很快的把這個事情他是假訊息馬上公布的話至少不會繼續擴大否則其實我的同事羅志正我覺得他現在也一定很頭痛因為我"},{"start":479.974,"end":499.606,"text":"一下子錄音帶 一下子A片然後現在聽說又有20支高清的袋子我覺得對他來講 這我們應該減掉要勇敢的負起我們會加強來做而且我要在這裡跟委員報告就是說我們這個建設的這個設備基本上在很多媒體上都錯誤報導說我們打仗"},{"start":502.087,"end":523.215,"text":"1.5的行動綱領花了27億去做裝潢這完全錯誤的啦實際上我們就是來精進這個儀器設備然後像那個林北好遊這些案子還有一些黨工有1000個帳號我們都是能夠這樣查出來所以我們絕對會積極來偵辦這件事情查個水落石出盡早讓真相能夠"},{"start":523.735,"end":523.895,"text":"主席"},{"start":536.377,"end":537.258,"text":"政府的公權力是碎死了嗎?"},{"start":564.759,"end":582.758,"text":"高端是全民買單立委是國防外交委員會包括趙天寧委員的那個小三豐富也是一樣的政府跟司法單位不可以明目張膽的去互短這個我是完全同意的我們完全沒有互短而且我在這裡在跟委員報告"},{"start":583.759,"end":594.112,"text":"政府的誠信很重要政府的威信很重要但是政府威信的建立不是像在威權獨裁國家那樣子的壓迫軍機各個企業這樣的話沒有辦法政府有簽約就要維持自己的誠信"},{"start":603.383,"end":619.899,"text":"院長我300%同意我們一定要有捍衛我們民主法治的這樣的決心跟能力但是我們絕對不可以用中國界選為藉口然後進行司法界選之時中國有沒有界選的話還需要偵查啦"},{"start":622.725,"end":643.531,"text":"還要去偵查當然啦但是有些偵查的就很奇怪啦因為所有的身為的製造我們如果查到這個來源也許是從境外進來的那當然就要跟就像我剛才講的那個林北好遊就是這樣查到境外去再查回來的還有那個黨工的一千個帳號也是這樣查出來的"},{"start":643.951,"end":644.031,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":661.562,"end":683.019,"text":"他只不過講了兩岸一家親子子孫孫要和平就用反滲透法去辦它我覺得我們警察我這麼多年來在警察大學我都告訴我的學生們我們是行政中立但是我們捍衛和平我們不是戰爭的工具所以和平沒有什麼不對的好不好謝謝我們是一定勿忘勿重"},{"start":685.181,"end":705.035,"text":"絕對沒有司法借選這回事我們都是因為有涉嫌犯罪檢調才會啟動偵查的所以絕對不是司法借選這一回事所有的里長一回來只要到中國大陸回來因為他有涉嫌刑責所以才會接受到約詢或是調查所以這不是針對什麼特定的法律問題"},{"start":706.896,"end":709.418,"text":"本席即將卸任 要回去領退休金 到底我們要不要漲4%"},{"start":724.445,"end":724.825,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":746.289,"end":746.729,"text":"因為預估了"},{"start":773.303,"end":773.984,"text":"最後的精算"},{"start":790.703,"end":791.724,"text":"我們已經有公布了相關單位可以參考"},{"start":809.508,"end":811.751,"text":"沒有遠高於大概0.2個百分點"},{"start":824.5,"end":842.776,"text":"不只啊 原來那邊是5.45這邊是5.925.92比5.45不是只有高0.2我這兩年 兩年抱歉齁 主席長我是要愛惜你的羽毛我怕你到時候又變成那個歐阿米索20塊一樣沒有啦 它是早1年 1年2.5"},{"start":847.841,"end":853.308,"text":"法律文字上是累積的所以CPI應該針對高齡家庭的CPI更早達到可以調整的"},{"start":868.822,"end":891.606,"text":"法律不是這樣寫的啦法律沒有分年齡GPI在那個原來的法律裡面是寫說所以我們可以修法嘛我們可以修法因為你退休退休期就是屬於高竟然要修嘛因為本席本來也希望說你們能夠更稍微更敏感一點這些都是我們當時在在這個立法院裡面"},{"start":892.606,"end":910.265,"text":"這是年改本來就有的法案 修的法來照顧退休的軍公教人員最後當然我時間已經快要用完我還是很關心在死刑存廢上的這些爭論因為我們看到了新北的那個國中生"},{"start":910.865,"end":924.741,"text":"他在被狂砍十幾刀之後他那天第一天他送到醫院就出血就是6萬CC我希望我們的少年事件處理法一定要有配套措施要讓孩子們能夠在"}]}},{"id":"149085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee68978fa76a61839451b826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b50b0c4806fe5b20b735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳斯懷","委員發言時間":"11:46:23 - 12:02:06","影片長度":"00:15:43","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":943,"end_time":"2024-01-09T12:02:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T11:46:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1103,"blocks":[["吳委員斯懷：（11時46分）謝謝院長，有請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：陳院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員好。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長好。我還是要問，剛才已經有兩位委員質詢過，高端和衛福部互相踢皮球，民眾跟媒體質疑的事，到底誰不想公開？薛部長你可以上來，但是不要回答，因為你剛才已經回答兩次，你可以上臺。你說這是高端自己公司的公布，與事實不符，媒體跟社會大眾心中自有評論，你已經回答兩次兩個委員的質詢。我要問的是，既然它不是事實，那就影響政府的威信，它是一個假訊息，或者你們最喜歡用的是一個認知作戰。請問從5月20號、5月30號公告到一年半以後，面臨縣市長選舉了，你們在111年11月3號發了個函問高端可否公布，你們跟高端之間需要用公文來來去去，沒有聯絡，沒有電話，沒有人可以接觸嗎？3號發了文，它不理你，22號再發個文，再次詢問貴公司可否公開？時隔一年半，如果它是假的，它說是主管機關不同意，如果是假的，一年半不處理，發兩個文以後，我想請問部長一件事，選舉前做這個動作，在縣市長選舉前，就是被質疑這是為了選情，為了縣市長選舉操作，那我現在問一個問題就好，你們在11月3號、11月22號發兩次文給高端，它有沒有回復？"],["薛部長瑞元：過去那兩次，應該是兩年前了，它沒有回復。"],["吳委員斯懷：沒有回復？政府威信何在？它是一家企業，我告訴你，我問你可以、不可以，你不行就回復我不行，是依據什麼、什麼，行就行，政府在幹什麼？這是政府的威信耶！院長，我們政府管不了一個企業嗎？管不了一個公司嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員你問得相當好，我再重複一次，實際上雙方簽訂契約的時候，如果有簽訂保密條款之後，我們雙方都應該要互相尊重……"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你已經回答一個早上了，保密條款、保密條款，這些我沒有意見，我問的是，我是政府，你不過是一家企業，我問你可不可以？你要回復我嘛！理都不理你！政府威信何在？","好，我們再看，我認為媒體質疑、很多民眾質疑，這是一個為了縣市長選舉的選舉操作，當人家質疑你們的時候，我們政府說我有發文給他，是他沒有回答我。你們對他這家公司如此的寬容，哪一家上市上櫃公司敢這樣子對政府？我不相信！不然金管會主委舉個例子給我聽，有哪一家公司敢在你發文兩次之後理都不理你？查一下就有，這個不用你說、不用我說、不用回答，查就知道了嘛！為什麼獨厚高端？這是民眾、媒體的質疑。監察院接著調查報告出來，時隔兩年了，這個報告出來以後，請問衛福部做了什麼事？"],["薛部長瑞元：哪一個方面？我們做很多事。"],["吳委員斯懷：你做了很多事，我們不知道，我們是立法委員，媒體不知道、社會大眾不知道，你做了什麼事？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以委員在問的是哪一方面？"],["吳委員斯懷：哪一方面？就是講這個啊！你資訊不公開啊！監察院的報告你沒看過嗎？看過沒有嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個資訊不公開的部分就是合約的限制。"],["吳委員斯懷：你又在談保密條款。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有錯，因為政府……"],["吳委員斯懷：好，我們不要扯。"],["薛部長瑞元：政府跟一個民間的企業簽了合約，難道政府說我要用強力的公權力來違約嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：部長，你等一下，你不要講話，我告訴你，我不要再跟你談保密條款。","接下來，我在衛環委員會，第一、第二會期我在那裡，我對這個事情非常清楚，我們一再的要求，你們那時候口風緊得不得了，說什麼都是不可以、不可以，要怎麼樣、怎麼樣。好，到現在了，110年5月30號高端這個出來了，我們還在追，照樣不理我們。到了一年半以後你們發兩個文，縣市長選舉了，還剩幾天了，請它是否可以公開？它不理你！我現在才知道，發兩個文的結論是它沒有回復你，這是政府的威信嗎？然後到現在，我在衛環委員會看過你們提供的資料，那時候你還沒當部長，塗黑的將近三分之二，看了跟沒看一樣，這是你們當初的心態跟口風。現在要……"],["陳院長建仁：這個保密條約是簽5年……"],["吳委員斯懷：我們不談，陳院長，賴清德總統候選人說應該要公開了，整個態度丕變，我中間再問一個重要的問題，就是政府權責的問題，你這個約裡面到底有沒有除外條款？部長，你知不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：除外條款指的是說什麼時候是可以揭露的？"],["吳委員斯懷：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：像是司法機關在調查的時候，我們是可以揭露，但是它有一些條件、一些程序要進行。"],["吳委員斯懷：有沒有除外條款？我問，有沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有！"],["吳委員斯懷：有！那今天這個狀況，全民都在質疑、社會大眾質疑、媒體質疑，在野黨所有的委員都在質疑有沒有弊案、有沒有後面等一下我要問的錄音檔的問題，那麼它就是符合除外條款……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["吳委員斯懷：等一下，我沒叫你回答，這個案子是有可能，我沒有說一定，有可能有重大弊案，除外條款就生效，法務部長可以回答這個問題，這是法律嘛！什麼叫除外條款？萬一我政府跟你簽的約有可能，我沒有說一定，有可能會產生重大舞弊案，除外條款就要生效。法務部長，是不是這樣子？除外條款的定義是不是這樣子？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果有例外的情形，當然就可以遵照辦理。"],["吳委員斯懷：對，有可能有重大舞弊案，或者其他影響人民生命安全的這種可能，除外條款就必須生效，就法律的定義是不是這樣子？"],["蔡部長清祥：那我們要看契約，還有比照相關的規定才能瞭解。"],["吳委員斯懷：我曉得你們的回答會這樣，但我告訴你全民的認知是這樣，有可能發生，除外條款生效，就拿出來公開嘛！現在我不跟你追這一個。"],["陳院長建仁：這個除外條款如果要公開時，要運用它、要公開的時候，我們要預先通知。"],["吳委員斯懷：當然，它有一定的行政程序。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你放心……"],["陳院長建仁：然後我們給這個預先的程序……"],["吳委員斯懷：我在公部門四十多年，公部門執行任何事情要有一定的行政程序。"],["陳院長建仁：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員斯懷：你剛才也講過，我清楚。但我問的是有沒有除外條款？薛部長說有，我就問法務部長除外條款的定義，是不是假如有這些可能發生，除外條款就應該生效，就可以引用除外條款來公開嘛，對不對？我有沒有說錯？"],["陳院長建仁：是啊！沒有說錯，但是還是要讓對方知道、通知對方。"],["吳委員斯懷：當然、當然，這是行政程序。"],["陳院長建仁：對於這整個公開合約的這件事情，我們覺得如果雙方能夠達成合意，然後一起來公開，那是最好的……"],["吳委員斯懷：我知道到現在，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：但是如果沒有，我們這個除外條款就可以使用。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你不要耽誤我的時間，我告訴你的是，到現在為止，政府對高端一籌莫展，什麼事情都是高端說了算，我們要求發公文，它不理我，我們希望它回答，它是「我不回答，你奈何不了我」……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有一籌莫展。"],["吳委員斯懷：現在我們看到你一個早上的回應，除了民進黨籍委員拼命做球給你、拼命罵在野黨之外，對於其他人的質詢，你都是這種回答，所以不需要再說。","我現在說賴清德副總統，現在的總統候選人說應該公開了，10天了，我們採取了什麼措施？你們看一下媒體的反應，柯文哲講得好笑：一年多來你身為副總統都不作聲，都沒有聲音嗎？陳琬惠委員說：高端弊案跟陳時中、賴清德不同調，英系不甩新潮流。這是他們說的，不是我說的！"],["陳院長建仁：都不正確。"],["吳委員斯懷：批民進黨高端合約大玩兩面手法，黃國昌說：英系陳時中在給新潮流賴清德難看。"],["陳院長建仁：我不贊成這樣的講法，這是不正確的消息。"],["吳委員斯懷：你不贊成，我沒有意見，你當然不贊成，但我告訴你，這是媒體的反應。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是錯誤的。"],["吳委員斯懷：是這些人說的話。但是11天了，你們到底想不想公開？"],["陳院長建仁：想。"],["吳委員斯懷：想公開？今天的臨時會，差一點開不成！"],["陳院長建仁：開不成是因為簽名還沒有簽滿啊！"],["吳委員斯懷：對，那你們想公開，有沒有可能公開？"],["陳院長建仁：那不能夠怪行政院，我跟委員講得很清楚，我今天早上的報告也講得很清楚，賴副總統想公開，政府也想越快公開越好，但是這裡面牽涉到我們的保密條款……"],["吳委員斯懷：又是保密條款，好……"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在還在跟高端協商，希望他能夠早日公開……"],["吳委員斯懷：好，你不要浪費我的時間，我時間不多了。我再問下一個問題，關於政府官員的官箴，當賴副總統一講了這個話之後，薛部長就在上班時間到競選總部去，有了這張照片，這是媒體刊的，不是我講的，它不是假新聞，是有這個事，你去幹什麼？人家說你是政府的官員，它是競選總部，政務官、不要說政務官，所有政府體系的人都應該在選舉中保持行政中立，請問法務部長對不對？這句話我有沒有說錯？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們當然要求所有的官員都應該要中立。"],["吳委員斯懷：行政中立，對不對？尤其身為部長，又跟這個案子有那麼密切的關係，你去幹了什麼事？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：可以，你說你去做了什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是去找柯建銘總召談今天要開臨時會的事情，柯總召早上在這邊走來走去，委員是還沒有來，要不然你直接問他就知道。"],["陳院長建仁：所以實際上是指鹿為馬。"],["吳委員斯懷：這不是指鹿為馬。"],["陳院長建仁：是，你跟他們……"],["吳委員斯懷：等一下，薛部長，你跟柯總召兩個人講的話誰能證明？我們今天要取信於民，那我告訴你的是……"],["薛部長瑞元：在場還有一位洪申翰委員，你去問他。"],["吳委員斯懷：我不要去問他。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，你又不求證！"],["吳委員斯懷：你把他們3個人叫出來……"],["薛部長瑞元：你拿這種東西誣衊我……"],["吳委員斯懷：我不是誣衊你，這不是我誣衊你，我有我的質詢權……"],["薛部長瑞元：我已經解釋了啊！"],["吳委員斯懷：我是言論保障，我的言論免責權，我告訴你……"],["薛部長瑞元：好啦、好啦，我知道啦！我不會告你啦！"],["陳院長建仁：言論免責權也不應該指鹿為馬。"],["吳委員斯懷：我沒有說你怎麼樣啊！我只是問你去幹嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：言論免責權不應該指鹿為馬。"],["吳委員斯懷：我把網路的事情告訴你，這是網路的笑話，不是我講的，政府官員去競選總部見這些重要幹部是去串證，還是湮滅……"],["陳院長建仁：錯誤的。"],["吳委員斯懷：不是，等一下，網路說的……"],["陳院長建仁：網路錯了、網路錯了。"],["吳委員斯懷：好，網路錯了，沒關係。薛部長，你必須用事實去證明你沒有做這些事。"],["薛部長瑞元：有人作夢，他有作夢的權利，我沒有解夢的義務。"],["吳委員斯懷：但是你有權利，也有義務、有責任，你要去證明你沒有做這些事。"],["陳院長建仁：他剛才已經講得很清楚，因為當時柯總召是在競選總部，這一件事……"],["薛部長瑞元：在他辦公室。"],["陳院長建仁：在他辦公室，所以這一件事情……因為貴黨說要開臨時會，這是很緊急的事情……"],["吳委員斯懷：這個是羅生門……"],["陳院長建仁：所以大家趕快去那裡討論嘛……"],["吳委員斯懷：你說你的，我們說我們的，信者恆信，不信者恆不信。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員要這樣子嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：我沒有，我沒有這樣子。"],["薛部長瑞元：把這種謠言這樣子傳是對的嗎？"],["吳委員斯懷：我沒有這樣講，我沒有講，我說這是網路說的。"],["陳院長建仁：網路錯誤嘛！"],["吳委員斯懷：我也沒有說你的人格有問題，我都沒有說。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，網路是錯的，這是指鹿為馬的事情。"],["吳委員斯懷：院長，你說網路錯的，我沒有意見，我沒有意見……"],["陳院長建仁：當時談的就是貴院要開臨時會這件事情……"],["吳委員斯懷：最後的時間我問一件事……"],["陳院長建仁：然後在那邊談，大概就是這樣……"],["吳委員斯懷：在社環委員會第1、第2會期的時候，我們提了很多案，針對高端的問題、針對人民健康的問題、針對有沒有圖利的問題，我們提了10個案統統被民進黨封殺。第一個，我們要1個月內擴大採購，WHO認證的疫苗4,000萬劑提案被封殺，我們人數表決不過，公開3＋11完整的會議紀錄，沒有公開……"],["陳院長建仁：WHO，委員……"],["吳委員斯懷：等一下，讓我講完嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["吳委員斯懷：第三個，國產高端疫苗的緊急使用授權審查，我們要求、我們有提案應該比照美國FDA全程直播公開，也被封殺，這就是民進黨執政黨的態度，我們讓全民來檢查、讓媒體來看，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：委員要世界衛生組織的疫苗進來，包括中國的疫苗，而中國的疫苗是沒有效果的……"],["吳委員斯懷：媒體跟……"],["陳院長建仁：這個案件是不可行的，而且會傷害國人健康。"],["吳委員斯懷：謝謝，請回。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，下午2時30分繼續專案報告之質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時2分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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院長我們政府管不了一個企業嗎管不了一個公司嗎我想 委員你問得相當好我再重複一次實際上雙方簽訂契約的時候如果有簽訂了這一個保密的條款的時候那我們雙方都應該要來互相尊重你已經回答一個早上了保密條例 保密條款這些我沒有意見我問的是"},{"start":209.588,"end":232.789,"text":"我是政府你不過是一家企業我問你可不可以你要回覆我嗎你都不理你政府威信何在好我們再看我認為媒體質疑很多民眾質疑這是一個為了縣市長選舉的選舉操作當人家質疑你們的時候我們政府說我有發文給他是他沒有回答我"},{"start":233.49,"end":233.63,"text":"監察院"},{"start":262.697,"end":290.74,"text":"接著教堂報告出來在時隔兩年了這個報告出來以後請問衛福部做了什麼事哪一個方面我們做很多事你做了很多事我們不知道我們是立法委員媒體不知道社會大眾不知道你做了什麼事所以委員在問的是哪一方面哪一方面就是講這個資訊不公開啊監察院的報告你沒看過嗎"},{"start":294.359,"end":317.333,"text":"這個資訊不公開的部分的話就是合約的限制你又在談保密條款這個沒有錯因為政府跟一個民間的企業去簽了合約難道政府說我要用強力的公權力來違約嗎部長你等一下你不要講話我告訴你我不要再跟你談保密條款我們摘下來我在未還委員會第一第二會期我在那裡"},{"start":318.444,"end":342.325,"text":"我對這個事情非常清楚我們一再的要求你們那時候口風緊得不得了說什麼都是不可以不可以要怎麼樣怎麼樣好 到現在了110年5月30號高端這個出來了我們還在追照樣不理我們到了一年半以後你們發兩個文縣市長選舉了還剩幾天了"},{"start":347.08,"end":374.779,"text":"請他是否可以公開他不理你我現在才知道發兩個結論是他沒回覆你這是政府的威信嗎然後到現在我在吳斯懷委員會看過你們提供的資料那時候你還沒當部長塗黑的將近三分之二看的跟沒看一樣這是你們當初的心態"},{"start":376.167,"end":383.632,"text":"政府權責的問題你這個約裏面到底有沒有除外條款部長你知不知道"},{"start":406.986,"end":427.724,"text":"除外條款指的是說什麼時候是可以揭露的嗎對在這一個好像是司法機關在調查的時候我們是可以揭露但是他有一些條件 有沒有除外條款我問有沒有有有那今天這個狀況"},{"start":430.1,"end":454.04,"text":"全民都在質疑社會大眾之一媒體之一在野黨所有的委員都在質疑有沒有弊案有沒有後面還有等下我問的錄音檔的問題那麼他就是符合除外條款沒有這個案子再等一下我沒叫你回答是有可能我沒有說一定有可能有重大弊案"},{"start":455,"end":479.525,"text":"除外條款就生效法務部長可以回答這問題這是法律嘛什麼叫除外條款萬一我政府給你簽的約有可能我沒有說一定啊有可能會產生重大舞弊案除外條款就要生效法務部長是不是這樣子除外條款的定義是不是這樣子"},{"start":480.575,"end":496.398,"text":"如果有例外的情形當然就可以來遵照辦理有可能有五重大五必要或者其他影響人民生命安全的這種可能就除外條款就必須生效就法律的定義是不是這樣子"},{"start":497.54,"end":522.974,"text":"那我們要看契約還有來比照相關的規定我跟你們的回答會這樣那我告訴你全民的認識是這樣有可能發生除外條款生效就拿出來公開嘛現在我不跟你追這個除外條款如果要公開的時候要應用它要公開的時候我們要預先要預先通知當然它有一定的行政程序院長你放心我在公部門40多年"},{"start":526.092,"end":549.149,"text":"公布門執行任何事情要有一定的行政程序你剛才也講過我清楚但是我自己問的是有沒有除外條款薛部長說有我就問法務部長除外條款的定義是不是假如有這些可能發生除外條款就應該生效就可以引用除外條款來公開對不對我有沒有說錯"},{"start":551.772,"end":579.194,"text":"沒有錯錯但是還是要讓要有一個讓對方通知對方當然當然這是行政程序但是在我們整個對於這個公開的合約的這件事情我們是覺得說如果能夠雙方能夠達成合意然後一起來公開我知道到現在但是如果沒有我們這個局外條款就可以使用我告訴你的是到現在為止是政府對高端一籌莫展"},{"start":579.907,"end":580.487,"text":"現在的總統候選人說應該公開了10天了"},{"start":609.721,"end":630.37,"text":"我們採取了什麼措施你們看一下這個媒體的反應柯文哲講的好笑一年多你身為副總統都不作聲都沒有聲音嗎陳晚會委員說高端弊案跟陳時中耐心的不同調陰系不甩新潮流這是他們說的不是我說的"},{"start":632.32,"end":644.261,"text":"拒民進黨高端合約大完兩面手法黃國昌說應系陳時中在給新潮流耐心的難看我不贊成這樣的講法這是不正確的消息"},{"start":644.775,"end":673.2,"text":"你不贊成我沒有意見你當然不贊成但是這是我告訴你這是媒體的反應這些人說的話但是11天了你們到底想不想公開想公開今天開臨時會差一點開不成開不成是因為簽名還沒有簽滿你們想公開我跟委員講得很清楚我今天早上的報告講這個賴副總統想公開政府也"},{"start":674.329,"end":675.649,"text":"當這個賴副總統一講了這個話之後 薛部長 你在上班時間到競選總部去 有這張照片"},{"start":704.665,"end":722.327,"text":"這是媒體看的,不是我講的啊,它不是假新聞啊,事有這個事,你去看什麼,人家就說你是政府的官員,他是競選總部政務官,不要說政務官了,所有政府體系的人都應該在選舉中保持行政中立,法務部長對不對?"},{"start":723.752,"end":731.755,"text":"我們是去找柯建銘總召談今天要開臨時會的事件柯總召早上在這邊走來走去委員其實是沒有來要不然你直接問他就知道"},{"start":751.075,"end":779.5,"text":"所以實際上這個指鹿為馬不是指鹿為馬等一下 薛部長你跟柯總召兩個人講的話誰能證明我們今天要取信於民嘛那我告訴你的是在場還有一位洪森漢委員你去問他我不要去問他你把這三個人叫出來你把這種東西污衊我我不是污衊你"},{"start":780.18,"end":784.782,"text":"我把網路的事情告訴你網路的笑話不是我講的說說這個政府官員去競選總部見這些重要幹部是去篡政"},{"start":806.198,"end":826.242,"text":"還是湮滅 錯誤的沒有 等一下網路說的網路錯了網路錯了網路錯 網路錯沒關係 薛部長你必須用事實去證明你沒有做這些事有人做夢 他有做夢的權利我沒有解夢的義務好 但是你有權利也有義務有責任證明"},{"start":829.062,"end":829.082,"text":"吳斯懷議員"},{"start":843.912,"end":849.398,"text":"貴黨說要開臨時會,這是很緊急的事情所以大家趕快去那裡討論嘛我沒有這樣講,我沒有講,我這是網路說的我也沒有說你的人格有問題,我都沒有說"},{"start":863.294,"end":865.915,"text":"我們在未還委員會的時候第一第二會期我們提了很多案針對高端的問題針對人民健康的問題"},{"start":886.333,"end":900.478,"text":"針對有沒有圖利的問題我們提了10個案通通被民進黨封殺第一個我們要一個月內擴大採購WHO認證的疫苗4000萬劑提案被封殺我們人數表決不過"},{"start":901.578,"end":902.218,"text":"委員要世界維生"}]}},{"id":"149084","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149084","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee6897b52c23e977d4bf5826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b504e2a3821e8710cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡適應","委員發言時間":"11:30:22 - 11:46:18","影片長度":"00:15:56","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":956,"end_time":"2024-01-09T11:46:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T11:30:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["蔡委員適應：（11時30分）感謝院長，請陳建仁院長就備詢台，謝謝。"],["主席：院長請。"],["陳院長建仁：蔡委員午安。"],["蔡委員適應：院長好。我剛才聽了國民黨委員的質詢，尤其最後一段非常的無厘頭，在問關於AV的事情。我跟院長講一下，最近我聽到一個笑話是說，現在只要在臺灣打AV，後面連結就是國民黨，為什麼？因為大家會想到原來上國民黨網站就可以看到關於AV的很多相關資訊。我認為離選舉剩下沒有幾天的時間，任何一個政黨應該就其國家政策提出藍圖，而不是在講什麼AV的事情，所以我覺得這真的是滑天下之大稽！","今天的重點在於整個高端解密的相關問題，我想先請教院長，我的第一問題是說，我們在這次的採購裡面，因為當時你不是擔任院長的職務，但我想你對於醫療非常瞭解，就院長所知道的，當時臺灣跟哪幾家公司有簽訂疫苗採購合約？"],["陳院長建仁：這裡面有包括COVAX、AZ、莫德納、BNT，還有高端，我們都有簽採購合約。"],["蔡委員適應：聯亞有沒有簽訂？"],["陳院長建仁：聯亞當時有參加臨床試驗……"],["蔡委員適應：所以應該也有嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：也有簽，但是簽的是補助它的臨床實驗……"],["蔡委員適應：我瞭解。"],["陳院長建仁：它到臨床實驗二期失敗。"],["蔡委員適應：部長在旁邊，我想請教一下，您當時擔任職位是……"],["薛部長瑞元：政務次長。"],["蔡委員適應：我想請教一下，這幾家簽訂合約的公司都有簽所謂的保密條款嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["蔡委員適應：都有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["蔡委員適應：為什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然啊，因為第一個是裡面有技術性資料，我們……"],["蔡委員適應：會在合約裡面，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，要簽約的時候要給我們看。"],["蔡委員適應：OK。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個就是有關於價格跟數量以及期程的部分，它必須要做保密。"],["蔡委員適應：OK，好。所以其實大多數跟我們政府簽訂疫苗採購的合約商，基於剛才部長所講的這幾個原則，第一個是它整個生產的配方，第二個是生產提供交貨數量及交貨流程。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：我想請教一下部長，就你的專業判斷，為什麼這幾件事情要保密起來？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這些東西如果洩漏出去的話，第一個會妨礙它公司跟其他國家簽的價格等等這些的議價……"],["蔡委員適應：價格或是採購速度、時程嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，會影響到，所以如果洩漏出去的話，比方它跟我們價格是一個，跟越南價格是一個，這就會互相去做比較，他們公司會受到一些壓力。"],["蔡委員適應：對，或者是說每個地方不同的價格，但是也有不同交貨的時程嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：這些事情其實在當下做判斷的時間是非常短暫的啦，我記得當時部長或行政院團隊在跟相關單位或者之前陳時中部長在做談判的過程當中，可能只有一、兩天的考慮時間。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，因為那個時候……"],["蔡委員適應：如果不談，廠商可能就下單給別的國家，別的國家可能用更好的價格去談了。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯。"],["陳院長建仁：很緊迫。"],["薛部長瑞元：很緊迫。"],["蔡委員適應：而且在這過程當中，我們對於其他國家採購疫苗的價格能夠知悉嗎？會知道嗎？其實也困難嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：其他國家的……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們不知道。"],["陳院長建仁：我們完全不知道。"],["蔡委員適應：有困難嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我也跟你報告一下，實際上是這樣的，這個疫苗的價格是完全要看什麼時候採購，譬如說我要是first priority、top priority去採購，當然我的價格就要高嘛，等到大量量產的時候去採購，價格當然就會低，而且這些廠商也都會考慮到不同國家的需要性，按照它的Per Capita GDP的情況來決定價格，所以價格的談判會牽涉到很多很多的因素。"],["蔡委員適應：所以院長講得很好，這個東西就要讓國人都瞭解，有人說價格是不是太貴或什麼，老實講，現在買最便宜，搞不好還買一送一，對不對？如果要這樣講的話，如果今天我是部長，我就會說好，告訴各位，我來採購更便宜的價格，明天找BNT或找哪家公司來買，它絕對賣的很便宜，但是在這個時間點就沒有這樣的需求嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：所以我認為有一些在野黨委員提出的是在張冠李戴、張飛打岳飛，拿宋朝或唐朝的兩個事情來做比較，然後再苛責院長跟部長這樣不對或這樣對，這完全是莫名其妙的一件事情。剛才部長和院長講得很清楚，這些相關的合約都有保密條款，能不能請部長或院長說明一下，這些保密條款分別是幾年，我想這是民眾非常關心的，我一個一個問，你告訴我就好了，第一個，大家最關心的就是高端合約的保密條款是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：5年。"],["蔡委員適應：5年是從2020年還是2021年開始算？"],["薛部長瑞元：最後交貨。"],["蔡委員適應：最後交貨起算5年，所以是去年再往後算，大概2027年左右，還是2028年？"],["薛部長瑞元：差不多116年。"],["蔡委員適應：116年也就是2027年，第一個，高端是5年，AZ是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：AZ也是5年。"],["蔡委員適應：AZ也是5年，所以一樣是從交貨最後一天開始算5年。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：另外，莫德納是幾年？"],["薛部長瑞元：莫德納不同意解密。"],["蔡委員適應：所以莫德納不同意解密？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，永遠不解密。"],["蔡委員適應：所以5年、6年後也是不能夠解密就對了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：另外就是BNT呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：BNT是10年。"],["蔡委員適應：那我覺得很奇怪了，為什麼在野黨沒有質疑BNT？我再問部長一個問題，我不曉得能不能講，這幾個疫苗的採購單價最貴的是誰？"],["薛部長瑞元：單價最貴的，比高端貴的大概是莫德納、BNT。"],["蔡委員適應：這兩個更貴，對不對？怎麼沒有人質疑BNT這麼貴，為什麼政府沒有跟它砍價？感覺這些質疑的人好像沒有人提出這個質疑。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是一個很矛盾的說法沒有錯。"],["蔡委員適應：那些人可能跟BNT有勾結，是不是這樣？我不知道，如果要質疑的話，我也會質疑啊！當時有些人在push BNT，說BNT很好，他們是不是買了BNT的股票？BNT的股票、輝瑞的股票也是可以買，美國的股票就可以買了，這樣我是不是也可以質疑，請法務部調查一下臺灣有哪些人買了輝瑞的股票？這個邏輯不通吧！部長？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，沒有錯，當時預定要買莫德納、AZ等疫苗，我們在編列預算的時候都是用一劑700元編列預算，所以700元的緣由是這樣，但是後來買到的價格當然就不是700元，每一個都不一樣。"],["蔡委員適應：當然啊！因為每個廠商提供的資訊或研發成本，不然我們就是排隊等，就像等到現在買，我想一劑不用70元，就是這個差別，所以我想這要讓國人知道，在那個非常短暫的時間點，身為一個政府官員在做這個重要決策是非常困難的，怎麼儘量能夠保衛國人的健康，在預算的可行範圍內做這樣的決策，老實講，用現在的角度來看那個時間點，我覺得是非常苛責且沒有道理的，所以我剛才才會跟部長、院長講，如果要講，我也會講現在買更便宜，但現在沒有人需要。","另外，第二個問題要請教院長和部長，就是我們國家隊的問題，院長和部長知不知道1922已經停掉了？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該還有。"],["蔡委員適應：還有嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：還有。"],["蔡委員適應：現在打1922會通嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：會。"],["蔡委員適應：現在打1922會通，確定？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為那個是叫防疫專線，不是針對COVID。"],["陳院長建仁：不是針對COVID。"],["蔡委員適應：防疫專線還留著嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，還留著。"],["蔡委員適應：COVID的專線還留著嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：COVID當時就是用這一個專線。"],["蔡委員適應：就是用1922，當時有擴大，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：擴大的合約是不是結束了？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是結束了。"],["蔡委員適應：我知道結束了，現在有多少人接電話？"],["薛部長瑞元：這可能要問一下。"],["蔡委員適應：你們說還留著，但我知道是沒有了，也就是縮編成人很少了，我想請教一下院長跟部長，我為什麼問這件事情的原因是因為最近疫情是不是又起來了？"],["薛部長瑞元：最近是有疫情起來，但是不是只有COVID。"],["陳院長建仁：對，最近在中國大陸的疫情是比較嚴重，而且發現新的病毒株JN.1。"],["蔡委員適應：JN.1更嚴重，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：JN.1傳染的速度會比較快，但是最近我們國內採購XBB的COVID-19疫苗，實際上對它是相當的有效。"],["蔡委員適應：好，那我想請教一下院長，JN.1在臺灣目前有沒有發現案例了？有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：目前有……"],["蔡委員適應：就是剛才院長提到的這些事情。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有擴散開來。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有擴散開來。"],["蔡委員適應：好，那這些案例應該都不是本地而是境外移入的？"],["陳院長建仁：我們現在篩檢的話……"],["薛部長瑞元：大概沒有辦法去做確定。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["蔡委員適應：有可能是本土的嗎？應該都是境外進來的吧？"],["陳院長建仁：對，JN.1的話應該是啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：目前我們邊境還有勸導來做篩檢，本土的……"],["蔡委員適應：對，我的意思就是想請教一下院長跟部長，因為有些國家，我也不要說是哪些國家，有些國家的疫情似乎有升溫的現象。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["蔡委員適應：有這樣的升溫現象，對於這些國家來臺灣的飛機，我想請問一下院長，有沒有考慮要升高對其防疫、檢疫的等級？"],["陳院長建仁：我們目前也知道哪些國家的疫情狀況比較嚴重，所以疾病管制署已經有針對這些特定的國家，在進來的時候就會加強體溫的測量，還有加強對症狀的調查，如果有症狀或者體溫異常的時候，那我們就會勸他在機場馬上做篩檢，我們篩檢、檢驗的病原體數目有十幾種，我們目前發現，現在比較常見的、在比較高疫情的國家實際上主要是流行性感冒，還有COVID-19，但是所謂黴漿菌的那種情況，實際上我們檢驗到的並不多，政府有加強在監控相關的疫情。"],["蔡委員適應：剛才部長跟院長提到有新採購了XBB的疫苗，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：已經開始打了沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，已經開始打了。"],["蔡委員適應：是自費還是公費？"],["薛部長瑞元：公費。"],["蔡委員適應：那我建議一下，要不要未來在機場也直接設一個施打站？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是在……"],["蔡委員適應：醫療院所嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：在研議當中，而且我們也已經將疫苗配送……"],["蔡委員適應：我的意思是說，可不可以請院長跟部長考慮一下？因為我剛剛聽起來，似乎境外的可能比例還滿高的。打這個疫苗有沒有什麼特別的要求？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟原來打的……"],["蔡委員適應：都一樣嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是一樣。"],["蔡委員適應：我建議一下院長跟部長在機場設，為什麼？因為我們出國的人通常在飛機場要等一到二個小時以上，對不對？所以他們有那個時間，當天就設一個疫苗站在那邊，有很多人就會跑去打疫苗啦！比他跑去醫院打，我覺得更方便，這是第一個。第二件事情，出國回來進到臺灣的人，你跟他講可以先打一下疫苗啦！我覺得這兩件事情可以給院長跟部長考慮一下，擴大我們的施打範圍跟施打率啦！我覺得講這件事情遠比國民黨開AV的記者會還來得更重要才對啦！","好，但是在這邊我還是要拜託一下我們的院長跟部長，剛才我提到的1922防疫專線，以及第二件事情，就是地方基層醫療院所因為這件事情執行業務所衍生的費用，我要拜託院長跟部長，我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情，在過去這兩年的過程當中，我們看到1922專線確實發揮了穩定人心的功能而有其重要性，那我也遇到有打電話向行政院或衛福部在談這個事情的人，他有聊到另外一個重要的議題，就是他覺得好像行政院本身就沒有這樣一個專屬的客服電話，地方政府有1999，但是中央政府沒有啦！我知道當時有很多人關於政府的一些相關議題也都是透過1922詢問，比如說紓困等等的內容，為什麼呢？因為我遇到的這些人有跟我講，他們透過1922所詢問內容的準確度比他們打1999問地方政府來得更準，因為很多地方政府也搞不清楚狀況，就跟他說可能要問中央，什麼都推給中央就對了啦！然後好的就說是他的，不懂的時候就推給中央，就說中央宣導的不大夠，我們也不知道，你要問中央政府。每次地方政府都這樣講，我認為這個是非常不公平的一件事情，但是我認為沒關係，我們中央政府就扛起來，地方做不到，侯友宜做不到，我們來做啊！這就是我們跟他們不一樣的地方嘛！所以我建議對1922這樣一個系統的維持，是不是行政院來檢討一下，未來就做為常設性、中央政府的一個組織單位，關於紓困、疫苗等等，只要中央政府所管事務的內容，我覺得都可以讓民眾打電話來問，讓他們來瞭解，我相信對於解決民間的很多問題、民眾的質疑會很有幫助啦！否則院長、部長和我們在這邊講了老半天，如果只有1萬人看到，可能還有另外好幾百萬人沒有看到啊！他還是會對同樣的問題繼續來詢問，那他如果看到網路上不確實的言論，他就以為那是真的啊！所以我們就跟他說：不用！有問題就打1922問我們的行政院，這樣最準啊！所以我認為這是一個非常好的所謂解釋疑慮的管道，像剛才我們部長提到每個合約都有保密期限，高端最短耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：他們為什麼不要質疑BNT，我也覺得很奇怪，為什麼不要質疑莫德納，對不對？所以我的意思就是說，這些事情其實就是要講給民眾知道，所以我在這邊拜託一下院長，我的第二個問題就是我們的1922專線，還有基層醫療他們的相關工作費用，我覺得要來增加，因為這幾年我們可以看得到全球化的關係，整個醫療、疫情或者病毒的蔓延是非常跨國的，而且我們事實上有時候看不到這些疫苗，等到真的已經發生事情的時候，都是透過我們的醫療單位來做協力、來處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蔡委員適應：部長，我建議這件事情要把它列為非常重要的重點，我相信醫師公會跟護理師公會還有藥師公會也有跟部長提過這個事情，好不好？這可以承諾吧！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分當然分兩個，去（112）年在健保裡面已經有處理了。"],["蔡委員適應：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：未來的部分我們可以來研議。"],["蔡委員適應：一定要做哦！另外就是1922的部分，拜託院長想一下，要繼續擴大辦理，我覺得這對民眾來講是非常重要的一件事情。"],["陳院長建仁：好，防疫專線很重要。"],["蔡委員適應：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。接下來請吳委員斯懷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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AZ莫德納BNT還有高端我們都有簽這個採購的這個合約聯亞有沒有簽訂聯亞當時是因為他有參加這個臨床試驗所以應該也有嘛對不對也有簽但是那個簽的就是補助他的臨床試驗到臨床試驗而其失敗部長在旁邊我想請教一下當時您當時擔任的職位是市長政務市長市長來"},{"start":116.974,"end":132.004,"text":"政府次長我想請教一下這幾家簽訂合約的公司對不對齁都有沒有簽所謂的保密條款有都有有為什麼當然啊因為他裡面他有一個技術性的資料會在合約裡面是不是對"},{"start":133.53,"end":161.451,"text":"他要簽約的時候要給我們看那第二個就是有關於價格跟這個數量以及他的期程的部分的話他必須要做保密所以其實大多數跟我們政府簽訂的疫苗採購的合約商基於的剛才就是剛才部長你講的這幾個原則第一個是他的整個生產的配方第二個就是他的生產的提供交貨的數量以及交貨的流程"},{"start":162.182,"end":183.856,"text":"那我想請教一下部長就你的專業來判斷為什麼這幾件事情要把它保密起來因為這些東西如果洩漏出去的話第一個就是會妨礙他公司在跟其他國家簽的那個價格等等這些的價格或者是採購的速度嘛 時程嘛 對不對會影響到 所以"},{"start":188.567,"end":208.343,"text":"如果他洩露出去的話比方說他跟我們的價格是一個那跟越南的價格是一個這就互相去做比較那他們公司會受到一些壓力對 或者是說每個地方不同的價格但是也有不同的交貨的時程那這些事情其實在當下"},{"start":209.204,"end":233.544,"text":"在做判斷的時間其實是非常短暫的就是說當時我記得部長或者我們行政院的團隊在跟相關單位在做或者之前陳時中陳部長在做談判的過程當中可能你可能只有一兩天的考慮時間你如果不談廠商可能就下單給別的國家別的國家可能就去更好的價格去談了而且在這過程當中我們對於其他國家採購疫苗的價格能夠窒息嗎"},{"start":235.544,"end":260.645,"text":"你會知道嗎?其實也困難我們完全不知道也困難嘛委員我也跟你報告一下啦實際上是這樣這個疫苗的價格是完全要看他什麼時候採購比如說我要是first prioritytop priority去採購當然我的價格就要高嘛等我到大量量產的時候的採購當然就會低而且這些廠商也都會考慮到不同的國家的需要性按照他的"},{"start":261.087,"end":261.107,"text":"蔡適應"},{"start":278.231,"end":279.772,"text":"這完全是莫名其妙的一件事情"},{"start":308.846,"end":309.166,"text":"最後交貨"},{"start":332.321,"end":332.461,"text":"末德納幾年"},{"start":359.369,"end":383.639,"text":"莫德納他不同意解密所以莫德納不同意解密所以5年6年後也是不能夠解密就對了對好那另外就是BNT呢BNT10年BNT10年那我就很奇怪了為什麼在野黨沒有來質疑BNT啊好那我再問部長一問這幾個東西的採購啊我不曉得不能講啊單價最貴的是誰啊"},{"start":384.958,"end":407.74,"text":"當價最貴的就是比高端貴的大概就是莫德納、BNT這兩個都更貴嘛對不對那怎麼沒有人質疑說BNT這麼貴為什麼政府沒有跟他砍價感覺好像這些質疑的人好像沒有人提這個質疑是不是那些人那些人可能跟BNT有勾結囉是不是這樣子我不知道啊如果要質疑的話我也會質疑啊當時有些人在"},{"start":408.721,"end":423.258,"text":"有當時有些人在pushBNT說BNT很好是不是他們是買BNT的股票BNT股票輝瑞也是可以買阿美國的股票就可以買了阿那這樣我是不是可以來質疑說請法務部來調查一下台灣有哪一些人去買了輝瑞的股票"},{"start":424.999,"end":448.197,"text":"這個邏輯不同吧 部長對 沒有錯那當時在預定要買莫德納等等這一些AZ的時候的話我們在編列預算的時候都是用一計700塊去編列預算的所以那個700塊的緣由是這裡但是後來買到的價格當然就不是一樣因為每個廠商提供的"},{"start":449.437,"end":464.923,"text":"資訊或者他告訴他的研發成本或者不然就排隊等就像說等到現在買我想一季不用70塊吧就是這個差別所以我想這第一個要讓國人知道就是說在那個非常短暫的時間點做一個重要的政府官員在做決策是非常困難的"},{"start":466.518,"end":487.368,"text":"怎麼樣盡量能夠保衛住國人的健康然後做這樣的決策在預算的可行範圍內我老實講用現在的角度來看那個時間點我覺得是非常苛責沒有道理所以我剛才才會跟部長院長說如果要會講我也會講說現在買更便宜但現在沒有人需要好但是另外我有第二個問題要來請教一下院長跟部長我們的國家隊的問題院長跟部長1922已經停掉了應該還有"},{"start":496.475,"end":521.112,"text":"還有嗎 現在打1922會通嗎現在打1922會通 確定因為那個是叫防疫專線 不是針對COVID那防疫專線還留著嗎有 還留著那COVID的專線還留著嗎COVID當時就用這一個專線就用1922嘛 當時有擴大嘛 對不對擴大的合約是不是結束了應該是結束了對啊 我知道是結束 所以現在多少人接電話"},{"start":522.947,"end":533.295,"text":"如果這樣我請教一下,你們說海流罩,我知道是沒有啦就說邊人很少了啦齁我為什麼問這件事情的原因是因為我想請教一下院長跟部長齁最近疫情是不是又起來了"},{"start":534.538,"end":561.115,"text":"最近是有疫情起來但是不是只有COVID最近在中國道路的話這個疫情是比較嚴重而且發現新的這個病毒株叫做JN1更嚴重嘛 對不對那這個JN1它傳染的速度會比較快但是最近我們國內採購的XBB的這個COVID-19的疫苗實際上對它是相當的有效那我想請教一下院長"},{"start":563.209,"end":569.792,"text":"J1在臺灣目前有沒有發現案例?沒有擴散開來那這些案例應該都不是本土還是境外移入的?"},{"start":576.728,"end":578.31,"text":"有些國家的疫情似乎又升溫的現象"},{"start":600.962,"end":623.188,"text":"這樣的生活現象對於這些國家來台灣的飛機我想請問一下院長有沒有考慮要升高他的防疫檢疫的等級我們目前的話也是知道哪一些國家呢他的疫情的狀況比較嚴重所以呢疾病管制署呢已經針對著這些特定的國家呢進來的時候呢就會加強這個體溫的測量還有加強這個症狀的"},{"start":625.047,"end":625.067,"text":"臨時會議員：蔡適應"},{"start":645.742,"end":649.264,"text":"因為剛才部長跟院長提到說有新採購了XBB的疫苗對不對對已經開始打了沒有有 有已經開始打"},{"start":674.204,"end":702.622,"text":"自費還是公費公費好那我建議一下齁要不要未來在機場也直接設一個施打站我們是在醫療院所嘛對不對研議大廚阿而且我們也已經那個疫苗配送我的意思是說可不可以請院長跟部長考慮一下啦齁因為我剛剛聽起來似乎境外的可能比例還蠻高的啦齁打這個疫苗有沒有什麼特別的要求阿跟原來打的都一樣嘛對不對齁是一樣我會建議一下院長跟部長齁"},{"start":703.786,"end":724.703,"text":"在機場設啦為什麼齁 我們出國的人通常在飛機場要等1到2個小時以上對不對 有那個時間齁當天就設一個疫苗站在那邊很多人都會跑去打疫苗啦比他跑去醫院打我覺得更方便 這第一個第二件事情 出國回來進來台灣的人你跟他講可以先打一下疫苗啦"},{"start":725.74,"end":754.064,"text":"我覺得這兩件事情可以給院長跟部長考慮一下擴大我們的施打範圍跟施打率我覺得講這件事情比原比講那個什麼該國民黨開記者會AB的記者會來得更重要才對好那但是在這邊我還是要拜託一下我們的院長跟部長剛才我提到的1922的防疫專線以及第二件事情地方基層醫療院所因為這件事情執行業務衍生的費用我要拜託院長跟部長我覺得這是非常重要的一件事情"},{"start":756.039,"end":779.831,"text":"過去這兩年的過程當中我們看到1922的專線確實發揮了穩定人心的一個重要性那我也遇到打電話有去打電話像行政院或衛福在談的事情的人他有聊到另外一個重要議題就是說他覺得好像行政院本身就沒有一個專屬的這樣的一個客服的電話地方政府有1999但中央政府沒有"},{"start":781.155,"end":799.353,"text":"中央政府沒有所以我知道說當時在1922打這件事有很多人關於政府的一些相關的議題也都透過1922詢問比如說紓困等等的內容等等為什麼呢因為我遇到這些人有跟我講說他們透過1922詢問的內容的準確度比他們問1999地方政府來得更準"},{"start":800.441,"end":820.525,"text":"因為很多地方政府也搞不清楚狀況就跟他說你可能要問中央什麼都推給中央就對了然後好的就說是他的不懂的說推給中央就說中央宣導的不大夠我們也不知道你要問中央政府每次都跟地方政府這樣講我認為這個是非常不公平的一件事情但我認為沒關係中央政府我們就扛起來"},{"start":821.304,"end":830.689,"text":"等行政院院長提出:「是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．是否公布高端合約．"},{"start":844.977,"end":862.732,"text":"我相信對於解決民間的很多問題民眾的質疑會很有幫助啦否則部長部長我們這邊講了老半天如果看的人只有一萬人看到可能還有另外的好幾百萬人沒有看到啊他還是會同樣的問題繼續來詢問那他如果看到網路上不確實的言論他就以為那是真的啊我們剛剛說不用"},{"start":863.516,"end":881.793,"text":"有問題打1922問我們的行政院最準啊所以我認為這是一個非常好一個所謂解釋疑慮的一個管道像剛才我們部長提到的每個合約都有保密期限高端最短欸他們為什麼不要質疑BNT啊我也覺得很奇怪為什麼不要質疑莫德納"},{"start":882.788,"end":909.553,"text":"對不對 所以我的意思就是說這些事情其實就是要講給民眾知道所以我在這邊拜託一下院長我第二個問題就是說我們的1922專線還有第二個就是醫療基層醫療他們的相關的一個工作的費用我覺得要來增加啦因為這幾年我們可以看得到全球化的關係整個醫療或者疫情或者病毒的蔓延是非常跨國的啦而且我們事實上有時候看不到啊"},{"start":910.086,"end":913.128,"text":"這件事要列為非常重要的重點我相信醫師公會跟護理師公會也有跟還有藥師公會也有跟部長提過這個事情好不好"},{"start":951.96,"end":953.608,"text":"好 謝謝蔡委員接下來請吳委員施懷質詢"}]}},{"id":"149083","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689e472d92542a4cc1c826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b502b845617e607d9b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:14:17 - 11:30:15","影片長度":"00:15:58","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":958,"end_time":"2024-01-09T11:30:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T11:14:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":845,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時14分）謝謝主席。我想請我們陳院長還有衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：陳院長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有法務部蔡部長"],["主席：蔡部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：以及金管會黃主委。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員早安。"],["王委員鴻薇：早安。先請教院長，剛才您回答邱泰源委員的時候，你有特別提到那兩個市長在疫情的時間沒有做好，請問一下，你所指的兩位市長是指哪兩位？"],["陳院長建仁：當然就是臺北市的市長跟新北市的市長，在當時萬華地區老人茶室產生散播的情況……"],["王委員鴻薇：你認為萬華是破口嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：最主要的情況在當時的這個事件一發生的時候，我們要……"],["王委員鴻薇：你剛才講的是臺北市市長跟新北市市長？"],["陳院長建仁：當然是……"],["王委員鴻薇：就是講柯文哲和侯友宜，是吧？"],["陳院長建仁：是啊，當時是他們在當市長。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為在之前幾個答詢裡面院長認為今天臨時會跟選舉有關，但是在這個場合，院長特別針對另外兩位現在的總統候選人做指控，我覺得這是行政不中立，其實我覺得我們在這裡應該就事論事……"],["陳院長建仁：我是就事論事……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果你的標準是一致的……"],["陳院長建仁：我在講防疫的結果、防疫的效果不好。"],["王委員鴻薇：你在這個時候去攻擊另外兩位非執政黨的候選人……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有攻擊，我講的是事實。"],["王委員鴻薇：這代表你行政不中立。"],["陳院長建仁：我講的是事實，委員我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：隨便啊！你不用再回答，我就是要指控，我認為你行政不中立。"],["陳院長建仁：當時2021年的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要浪費我的時間……"],["陳院長建仁：在整個臺北、新北市有一個很大的流行產生……"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，我可不可以質詢？可以嘛！","因為這個問題滿重要，剛才我也有注意到賴士葆委員也特別提到高端的合約能不能公開，因為我們現在的說法是這是廠商要求，那麼廠商沒有同意……"],["陳院長建仁：不是廠商要求，委員您講錯了，不是廠商要求。"],["王委員鴻薇：這跟我們王必勝署長的講法可能不一樣，說要股東會、董事會，但是不管，政府的說法是因為這是要看高端，也就是廠商願不願意同意。"],["陳院長建仁：我們簽了保密協約、保密條款。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，你們講過很多次。但是在110年5月30號，因為高端是上櫃公司，它發表重訊提到有關限制條款是依採購機關要求，合約其他細節不予公開。剛才賴士葆委員有特別問到這件事情，對不對？薛部長的回答是它要怎麼講，它也沒有問過我們政府，所以，我請問部長，它這個說法是正確的還是錯誤的？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，我們沒有要求他不公開，應該是依照合約不公開。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以他是依照採購機關要求，採購機關一定是衛福部。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，採購機關沒有要求，是依照合約。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以部長很明確地告訴我們，這個重訊的訊息是錯誤的，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以這麼說，因為是依照合約。"],["王委員鴻薇：那請教部長，因為我剛剛特別提到他的重訊時間是民國110年5月30號，已經長達2年半，就這樣錯誤的訊息，請問衛福部是否曾經要求它更正，或是曾經去告它，說它這個根本是錯誤的訊息？衛福部有沒有做這件事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們在那之後，就有發文給高端，請它考慮公開合約。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，你這是兩碼事，我說它這個錯誤的資訊，你們有去告它嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：它的重訊要怎麼公布，或者是否有錯，並不是衛福部要去管理的，這不在我們的權責……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是衛福部是採購機關……"],["薛部長瑞元：那跟這個無關……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我的問題是……"],["薛部長瑞元：這跟重訊的發布無關。"],["王委員鴻薇：既然這個訊息是錯誤的，為什麼衛福部在這麼長的時間裡面沒有去告它？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這不是我們的權責。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你都去告立委了！你都去告立委了！"],["薛部長瑞元：那是兩件不一樣的事！"],["王委員鴻薇：你為什麼不告高端？是不敢告嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我為什麼要去告高端？因為那個不是我們的權責。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個就是錯誤訊息啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：錯誤訊息由主管機關去處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：無所謂？好，我為什麼把金管會主委找來，所以你不敢告高端，現在就請問主管機關，請問一下金管會主委，這樣的錯誤訊息，我們有去處罰它嗎？有去處分它嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它發布的重訊是依照上櫃公司重訊發布辦法去做的，內容由櫃買中心那邊或當事人去做一個確認。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以在我今天的質詢裡面，衛福部長說這個訊息是錯誤的，但是衛福部不去告它，金管會會處理嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當時並沒有特別人指出，所以櫃買中心……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我現在直接問，現在金管會會立刻去處理，讓證交所去罰它嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想我們會請櫃買中心再去瞭解當時它發布的背景，剛才我也跟賴委員這樣報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以包含衛福部、金管會，針對這個嚴重影響、嚴重損害政府威信的重訊，竟然不聞不問，竟然不敢告高端？好，時間暫停一下，我請問一下法務部長。部長，為什麼要請您上來？我認為高端的合約已經引起這麼嚴重的爭議，舉國都覺得為什麼不公開？連我們的副總統賴清德、民進黨的總統候選人都覺得應該公開啊！可是整個行政院把賴副總統的話當成空氣，從他講完到現在，今天已經第10天了，到現在為止沒有公開，就算我們開臨時會還是不公開！我覺得非常不解，到底在怕高端什麼？連這種錯誤且損害政府威信的訊息也沒有人處理！既然部長你在這邊，我直接要求法務部調查衛福部有沒有瀆職！兩年半了，它說之所以不能公開，是政府、採購機關要求不能公開；但衛福部長說這完全是錯誤的！即使是完全錯誤的，卻也不理不睬，這不是嚴重瀆職嗎？所以我要求法務部長、法務部立刻調查衛福部，包含衛福部長，還有疾管署有沒有瀆職的問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：王委員，你要不要去告？"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下，我現在在問部長……"],["蔡部長清祥：這不是法務部的職責。對於有沒有涉及刑事責任是由檢調機關來負責，而法務部是負責行政業務。我知道過去檢察機關曾經調查過，相關案件有63件之多……"],["王委員鴻薇：報告我都看到了，都查無不法等等。但我現在有新事證，我現在有新事證，我一樣請地檢署來偵辦。我真的覺得很奇怪，為什麼政府對高端這樣莫可奈何？到底在怕高端什麼？我剛剛講，薛瑞元部長都敢告立委了，為什麼不告高端？我要是你的話，我立刻告高端亂講話！怎麼說是我不讓你公開？明明是你高端說不能公開的？","高端昨天又發布重訊，敝人在下我也在裡面。它說它要告我跟另外的3位候選人講的股東名冊問題。我時間有限，今天就不請經濟部長上來了。真的笑死人了，你們不要天天怕高端，因為高端只會濫訴！所謂的股東名冊，去查一下銀行法第二百十條，清清楚楚告訴你股東名冊可以怎麼取得，搞不好蔡部長是清楚的。對於高端這樣不敢公開，只會濫訴的一家公司，然後我們任它予取予求？所以我在想，高端到底是何方神聖？我想請問陳院長，在2016年您跟蔡英文總統搭檔，那時候你是副總統候選人，您有收受過高端、高端股東，或高端之前的前公司、前身等等的政治獻金嗎？有嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我只是參加高端的臨床實驗而已。"],["王委員鴻薇：你沒有，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：我在這邊也幫你背書，我查過了，您沒有。我剛剛講過，高端的股東名冊並不難取得，根據相關法律是可以取得的。這是之前侯漢廷議員所公布的高端股東捐款名單，大概所有政治人物都在內。我剛才說我幫陳建仁院長背書，我們查過了，2016年您是副總統候選人，那一次你們沒有接受過高端的任何政治獻金；但在2020年，蔡英文總統、賴清德副總統就有接受到高端股東的政治捐獻。可以看看這裡面洋洋灑灑，包含縣市長、包含立法委員……"],["陳院長建仁：委員、委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：包含議員！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，高端股東有四萬多人，這四萬多人再怎麼去找，還是會找到有一些願意做政治獻金的人，你這樣單挑高端股東來講，我覺得是不公平！"],["王委員鴻薇：就是剛才部長跟您咬耳朵……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！他告訴我……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是……"],["陳院長建仁：他告訴我高端股東有四萬多人啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是，我不解的是為什麼今天我們都召開臨時會了，召開臨時會是正確的，雖然過幾天馬上確實就有大選，但是在立法院召開臨時會本來就是一個民主國家、民主政治的程序，然後我們所有的立法委員，比如像邱泰源委員覺得他非常珍惜今天的質詢，我看了也非常感動，大家想利用這一次臨時會把一些大家想要釐清的事情或者最近發生的事情來請教我們的行政單位，但是為什麼到今天仍然不敢公布高端的採購合約？說實在的，我真的覺得我也為賴清德不值啊！"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：好，您說一下，我時間不多了。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我剛才在報告的時候你沒有來，所以你沒有聽到我的報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：但是這個報告我都看過了！"],["陳院長建仁：好，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你剛才講的，包含部長講的都在裡面了！"],["陳院長建仁：既然你看過報告，你就曉得因為我們跟高端簽有保密的協定……"],["王委員鴻薇：那不用看今天的報告，前幾天你們就在講了！"],["陳院長建仁：在保密協定裡面，我們政府是簽約的一方，當然就要遵守簽約者的義務嘛，所以維持政府的誠信是相當重要，如果政府的誠信一旦沒有辦法維護，未來政府要採購相關的疫苗、藥物等等的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：政府誠信很重要，……"],["陳院長建仁：其他的公司就……"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，政府誠信很重要，但是政府的威信也很重要，我剛才特別提……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，所以政府的威信我們有跟高端講……"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起喔，我剩一點點時間……"],["陳院長建仁：我跟高端講，希望高端能夠來公開這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：不要怕高端啦，這家公司……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有怕它！"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼要讓它予取予求？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有讓它予取予求！"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在換另外一個題目……"],["陳院長建仁：你如果這樣講，你如果這樣兇，我就不同意了！我沒有給它予取予求！"],["王委員鴻薇：我不需要你同意啊！院長。","好，我現在另外要請教一下法務部長，請將時間暫停一下，然後薛部長和金管會主委可以先請回，謝謝，也不好意思讓你們罰站。","法務部長，我想請教一下，之前我們的行政院副院長──鄭文燦副院長，有涉及他、影射他的帶女人開房間的影片外流，我們也在司法及法制委員會裡面討論過，我想請問這個案子結案了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：應該還沒有，因為在檢察機關偵查中。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，它是偵查中案件，對不對？"],["蔡部長清祥：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是呢，鄭文燦的那個影片，後來刑事局有整個的檢驗結果說是不是深偽製作，對不對？有沒有公布？"],["蔡部長清祥：還包括調查局也有做鑑定，所以他們二個偵查單位也是有把成果報到地檢署。"],["王委員鴻薇：都公布了，因為那時候也對我們公布說有二個系統，一個61%說可能有深偽，一個說沒有深偽製作，所以它說不能確定有深偽製作的可能，是用這樣的一個話，當然我們很多翻譯大白話就代表它不是偽造的。但是無論如何，鄭文燦影片的檢驗結果是公布了，剛才部長也說這是偵查中案件。同樣的，今天我們立委羅致政委員涉及性愛的影片，事實上調查局現在已經完成了檢驗，可是地檢署、調查局說這是偵查中案件，不能公布，為什麼同樣一件事，鄭文燦的要公布，然後羅致政的不公布？這是什麼標準？"],["蔡部長清祥：都沒有公布，都沒有正式的對外公布……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你失憶了！"],["蔡部長清祥：如果在檢察官的偵查當中，檢察官會受到偵查不公開原則……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長失憶了嗎？鄭文燦那個公布了啦！鄭文燦那個已經公布了。"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得是哪一個單位公布的，但是檢察機關絕對沒有公布。"],["王委員鴻薇：鄭文燦自己都公布了，他自己都公布了，所以我要講的是……"],["蔡部長清祥：我不曉得他怎麼得來的訊息。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我一再講說，國家有國家的制度，如果鄭文燦的影片也是偵查中案件，但他可以公布，為什麼羅致政的影片要說是偵查中案件不公開，這個就有隱瞞的問題，所以我們非常擔心這個影片是不是不能公布，怕影響羅致政的選情啦，但是我還是很希望不要因為任何一個候選人，而去破壞了我們整個國家的制度，好不好？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們會遵守偵查不公開的原則。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。","接下來請蔡委員適應質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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我可不可以質詢 可以嗎 來"},{"start":127.683,"end":151.975,"text":"因為這個問題蠻重要因為剛才我也有注意到我們賴世保委員也特別提到了也就是高端的合約能不能公開那麼因為我們現在的說法是因為這是廠商要求那麼廠商沒有同意那可能包含院長跟我們那個王必勝署長可能講法不一樣說要股東會董事會好不管"},{"start":153.035,"end":163.083,"text":"我們政府的說法是因為這是要看高端就是廠商願不願意同意但是在110年5月30號"},{"start":169.187,"end":195.267,"text":"因為高端是上匯公司他發表重訊提到說有關於限制條款是依採購機關要求合約其他細節不予公開剛才賴世寶委員有特別問到這件事情對不對那薛部長的回答是說他要怎麼講他也沒有問過我們政府所以部長我請問他這個說法是正確的還是錯誤的"},{"start":197.386,"end":198.987,"text":"所以部長很明確的告訴我們這個重訊的訊息是錯誤的是不是"},{"start":223.131,"end":226.454,"text":"請教因為我剛特別提到他的重訓時間是民國110年5月30號已經長達兩年半這樣錯誤的訊息請問一下"},{"start":239.207,"end":255.666,"text":"我們的衛福部是否曾經要求他更動：或者曾經去告他說你這個根本是錯誤的訊息衛福部有沒有做這些事我們在那個之後就發文給這個高端請他來公開合約"},{"start":256.867,"end":257.888,"text":"跟重訊的發布無關"},{"start":279.158,"end":294.175,"text":"既然這個訊息是錯誤的,為什麼衛福部在這麼長的時間裡面沒有去告高端?你都去告立委了,你為什麼不告高端?不敢告嗎?"},{"start":298.9,"end":315.607,"text":"這個就是錯誤訊息啊他錯誤訊息有主管機關去處理無所謂好來來來為什麼把金管會主委找來了所以你把你不敢告高端現在請那個主管機關那請問一下我們金管會主委這樣錯誤訊息我們有去處罰他嗎有去處分他嗎"},{"start":316.596,"end":321.417,"text":"那所以我今天在這個質詢裡面衛福部長說這個是錯誤的但是衛福部不去告他金管會會處理嗎當時並沒有特別人指出當時所以貴買中心對我現在直接說那現在金管會會立刻去處理嗎讓證交所去罰他"},{"start":345.967,"end":346.127,"text":"為什麼要請您上來?"},{"start":373.715,"end":398.528,"text":"我就認為在高端的合約已經引起這麼嚴重的爭議那麼大家舉國都在覺得說為什麼不公開連賴清德現在我們的副總統我們的民進黨的總統候選人都說他覺得應該公開啊可是現在呢我們整個行政院把賴副總統的話當成空氣一樣他現在講完今天已經第10天了"},{"start":399.548,"end":400.048,"text":"王鴻薇議員王鴻薇議員"},{"start":423.303,"end":424.604,"text":"王委員 你要不要去告"},{"start":449.533,"end":477.185,"text":"這個不是法務部的職責對於有沒有涉及刑事責任是由檢調機關他們來負責所以法務部是負責行政業務那過去我知道的檢查機關也曾經調查過相關的案件有63件之多報告我都看到了說都查無不法等等所以我現在有新的事證我現在有新的事證那麼我也會也一樣請那個"},{"start":478.805,"end":502.731,"text":"地檢署來查偵辦我真的覺得很奇怪我們政府為什麼對高端這樣的莫可奈何到底在怕高端什麼所以我剛剛講我們薛淵源部長都敢告立委為什麼不告高端我是你我立刻告高端亂講話怎麼說是我不讓你公開明明是你高端說不能公開好再來看一下看一下時間"},{"start":505.558,"end":527.213,"text":"高端昨天也又發布重訊 裡面畢仁在下我 也在裡面他說他要提告我 提告我跟另外三位候選人說談到有股東名冊的問題我時間有限 我今天就不請經濟部長上來 我覺得真的笑死人"},{"start":528.447,"end":544.58,"text":"你們不要天天怕高端高端只會爛數股東名冊去查一下銀行法銀行法裡面210條清清楚楚的告訴你股東名冊可以怎麼取得我想搞不好蔡部長是清楚的"},{"start":545.6,"end":569.166,"text":"所以對於高端這樣不敢公開只會濫訴的一家公司然後呢我們對他予取予求所以我就在想你高端到底是何方神聖那我想請問一下我們陳部長部長你當時在2016年的時候您有跟蔡英文總統搭檔那時候你是副總統候選人"},{"start":570.586,"end":592.16,"text":"您有收受過高端或高端股東或高端他們之前的前公司前身等等的政治獻金嗎有嗎沒有啊我根本我只是參加高端的臨床實驗而已你沒有嘛對不對沒有我在這邊也幫你背書我查過了您沒有但是啊來看一下我剛才講"},{"start":596.892,"end":618.388,"text":"高端的股東名冊並不難取得根據相關的法律是可以取得這個是之前侯漢廷議員所公布的相關的高端股東的捐款這個大概就是所有政治人物所以我剛才說我幫陳建仁院長也背書我們查過了"},{"start":622.911,"end":642.778,"text":"當時2016年您參加副總統是候選人那一次你們沒有接受過高端的任何的政治獻金但是在2020年蔡英文總統賴清德副總統就有接受到高端股東的政治捐獻可以看看這裡面洋洋灑灑"},{"start":644.618,"end":667.318,"text":"這裡面包含縣市長 包含立法委員 包含議員高端股東有4萬多人你這4萬多人你再怎麼去找還是找到有一些願意做政治獻金的人你這樣單挑高端股東這樣來講我覺得是不公平這是剛才部長跟你搖耳朵我要講的是我不解的是為什麼今天我們都召開臨時會了"},{"start":669.119,"end":690.892,"text":"召開臨時會是正確的雖然馬上過幾天確實就有大選但是在立法院召開臨時會這本來就是一個民主國家民主政治的程序然後我們所有的立法委員比如像邱太元委員他覺得他非常珍惜今天的質詢我看了也非常感動"},{"start":691.812,"end":692.372,"text":"我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":712.657,"end":712.797,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":729.771,"end":731.993,"text":"政府誠信很重要但是政府的威信也很重要我剛才特別提"},{"start":756.032,"end":772.649,"text":"所以政府的微信我們有跟高端講我跟高端講希望高端能夠來公開沒有怕高端啦這家公司沒有怕他為什麼要讓他予取予求沒有讓他予取予求你如果這樣講我就你如果這樣兇我就不同意了"},{"start":773.029,"end":773.129,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":794.033,"end":809.11,"text":"法務部長我想請教一下在之前我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦副院長他有涉及他影射他的帶女人開房間的影片外流我們也在司法法治委員會裡面討論過我想請問這個案子結案了嗎"},{"start":813.168,"end":838.867,"text":"應該還沒有 因為在檢察機關偵查中是 他是偵查中案件 對不對對那但是呢鄭文燦那個影片後來刑事局他有他的整個的檢驗結果說是不是身為製作 對不對有沒有公布還包括調查局也有他做鑑定所以他們兩個偵查單位他們也是把成果有報到地檢署"},{"start":839.697,"end":839.777,"text":"同樣的"},{"start":869.48,"end":891.771,"text":"今天我們立委羅智政委員他的涉及性愛影片現在事實上調查局已經完成了檢驗可是呢地檢署調查局說這是偵查中案件不能公布那為什麼同樣鄭文燦要公布然後羅智政不公布這是什麼標準"},{"start":893.291,"end":901.427,"text":"都沒有公布,都沒有正式的對外公布,如果在檢察官的偵查當中,檢察官他會受到偵查不公開的檢查"},{"start":904.321,"end":928.963,"text":"鄭文燦自己都公布了他自己都公布了所以我要講的是所以我一直在講說國家有國家的制度所以如果今天鄭文燦的影片他也是偵查中案件他可以公布為什麼羅志政的影片要以說偵查中案件不公開那這個就有隱瞞的問題"},{"start":939.332,"end":939.873,"text":"王鴻薇"}]}},{"id":"149082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7594f10b9bbee689f3af65991490ce39826b98f121effac12be4303bcf228b501dd0c2f14099b89b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"10:59:13 - 11:14:08","影片長度":"00:14:55","會議時間":"2024-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議（事由：行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報告並備質詢）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":1,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議","id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":1},"date":"2024-01-09","duration":895,"end_time":"2024-01-09T11:14:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-01-09T10:59:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（10時58分）好，謝謝。有請陳院長。"],["主席：院長請。"],["邱委員泰源：院長好。"],["陳院長建仁：邱委員早。"],["邱委員泰源：我想在這三、四年來，臺灣的防疫非常地成功，在各界還有全民的配合、支持下，可以說是達到了一個……我在2021年5月的時候，曾經寫一篇文章刊登在Taiwan News，讓世界知道我們臺灣將會創造一個光榮的時刻。"],["陳院長建仁：確實是。"],["邱委員泰源：接下來，在政府的領導之下、全民的努力之下，我們做到了！我站在醫界的立場，必須要來肯定我們全國醫療同仁過去的努力，以及政府怎麼樣來跟醫界合作的，很簡單地跟院長、跟大家說明一下。首先，我們非常感謝蔡總統，在防疫的工作裡面一直支持我們，不管我們有什麼需求，只要跟總統講，他其實都會盡全力來努力。我們也感謝陳副總統當時領導建立一個非常溫馨、智慧、有專業的防疫模式，其實是帶領我們醫界走向堅定醫療核心價值，以及站在人民需求的立場上來創造一個更好的醫療防疫能力。在這幾年防疫當中，我們也真的非常感謝賴副總統，其實他一直深深地以他醫師的專業、以他過去的經驗在指導我們醫界，甚至也多次到我們醫師公會這邊來做現場的互動、指導，如果有任何的需要或者他想到要指導我們什麼的話，其實我們是溝通無礙，所以在防疫的過程當中賴副總統對我們醫界貢獻是非常的大。當然行政團隊在蘇院長的領導之下，我很多很多的好朋友都是疫情專家、都投入，深深地日以繼夜在為防疫工作，我在這邊也特別用醫界的立場來感謝他們的投入。","當然因為醫界總是臺灣珍貴的資產，過去百年來就是一直守護人民的健康，一開始還有SARS的經驗，SARS在我們陳建仁老師還有很多前輩的指導之下，醫界學到很好的經驗，所以一開始的時候我們醫界就很擔心，就立志說不能有任何的醫護人員再受到傷害，相對地就不能有人民受到傷害，所以我們基本上全國24縣市的醫師公會可以說是全部日以繼夜在做防疫的工作以外，大概每一個禮拜我們都會開一個全國性的醫界會議，然後來配合政府的政策，把它落實到所有全國各鄉鎮的任何一個角落，有疫情、有狀況，我們在社區就給它守住最好的一個防疫陣線。譬如說我們人員在醫院比較緊迫的時候，我們可以看下面的部分，其實我們也發動了全國的醫師，也是在總統的指導之下，基層醫師都出來拼，OK，因為醫院人力緊繃，還有很多重症需要治療，所以我們就動員了四大方向，包括請耳鼻喉科醫學會指導全國來做篩檢的工作。當然因為人心會需要穩定，除了我的老師陳建仁院長給我們全國很大的心靈支持以外，我們也要給他們做身心壓力的照護，這個我們請精神醫學會來幫忙。另外，在社區還是很多預防保健、急慢性疾病的管理、居家及安寧等等的照護，其實我們也請家庭醫學會動員來指導我們跟基層醫師來做。最後就是社區打疫苗的事情，我們請兒科醫學會來做，他們比較會打疫苗，所以這樣動員萬名的基層醫療這樣做，過程當中也感謝我們陳建仁老師在這樣的一個工作裡面給我們最大的支持。","後續我們也完成了六大任務，不管是PCR的採檢，還有遠距的診療，大家應該知道，當臺北市在疫情緊繃的時候，一天有一萬個感染者，這一萬多只要有二十分之一跑到醫院去，醫院急診就崩潰了，但是我們政府有一個很好的政策，就是居家的醫療、視訊的醫療，可以讓得病的人、染疫的人能夠在家裡，我們用視訊給他用家庭醫師的方式，小孩子發燒家屬也不用把小孩子帶到急診，可以在家裡得到很安心的照護，每天一萬個病人這樣守下了，這是臺灣的奇蹟，我想也是世界的典範。當然在疫苗接種其實也感謝全部的政府高層，在互動當中他們都很支持、很鼓勵基層社區來做，所以克服了很多的困難，讓社區診所來打疫苗，打不到幾個月，大概有70%的疫苗是在社區打，民眾也得到方便，我想這個部分也是當時陳建仁教授給我們最大的一個鼓勵跟用文獻來呈現。","當然這樣的成果我們不只有在國內守住，我們也要分享給世界各國，剛好我們臺灣醫師會跟世界醫師會互動非常好，所以我們的專家把臺灣很多的經驗也分享到世界各國，所以世界醫師會更加肯定臺灣過去醫療的水準，甚至防疫的水準都是一流的，更加的堅定支持臺灣一定要參與WHO的活動，所以大家的防疫成果其實是幫臺灣打下了很多的江山。","我也曾經在2021擔任亞大19個國家醫師會的總會長，也把我們的經驗分享給亞洲19個國家，讓他們能夠防疫的更好，亞太的安全當然是大家努力的。同時在2021年9月在臺灣開的CMAAO大會裡面，我們把過去大家努力的經驗、心血，呈現在「台北宣言」中發表在國際間，最近也得到世界醫師會（WMA）肯定，其實世界醫師會跟WHO是相關的，要我們把它正式再revise變成世界級的，我想這都是政府、民間還有各個專業團體，大家一起努力貢獻的一個結果。請問院長，對前面這些工作，要不要跟我們醫療團隊講幾句話？"],["陳院長建仁：我想臺灣過去2020年開始，連續3、4年的期間，我們真的要謝謝邱泰源委員，還有我們醫師公會，甚至全國防疫、醫療第一線工作同仁們的辛勞。大家的努力確實使得臺灣的防疫做到很好，我在這裡要謝謝所有的醫師，大家不管是在我們的篩檢也好，預防接種也好，或者是遠距醫療也好，都扮演一個很關鍵性的角色。實際上，我也要謝謝2,300萬臺灣的無名英雄，每一個人民在中央流行疫情指揮中心公開透明的記者會之下，因為取得了全民的公信力，大家也都願意遵照流行指揮中心的建議來做好防疫的措施，我們疫調做得很棒，還有居家隔離、居家檢疫，所以以全世界來說，我們在2020年跟2021年是享受最好的成果，我們COVID-19死亡率跟發生率也都是最低，而且超額死亡率也是最低。所以在整個過程當中，醫師們還有護理人員們、所有的防疫人員，大家確實做得很好。","但是在這一段期間，我們也看到臺灣不幸的在屏東有Delta變異株，但是屏東我們就壓抑得很好，可是我們發現在新北市跟北市，因為有所謂萬華事件的關係，所以疫情曾經告急。在這樣的一個情況下，也幸好我們新北市跟臺北市的醫師們，大家都積極努力做好疫調、做好相關的醫療照顧。我記得當時這兩個市的市長還說我們來封城好了，我們沒有辦法做疫調啦，沒有辦法做好，在那樣的一個情況下，完全束手無策要放棄原來防疫的措施，幸好我們所有的醫事人員還有第一線的防疫人員，大家很積極地去做好這個工作。結果我們把Alpha這一個疫情也控制住，全世界都大為驚艷，在當時我們接種率很低的情況下，就是靠著很好的精準疫調、精準篩檢、精準的居家隔離跟居家檢疫，做到這麼好，能夠做得這麼好，醫師們扮演一個很重要的角色，也是全民大家很努力。所以這兩個市長連防疫的工作都沒有辦法做好，實在令我們覺得沒有辦法帶動很好的城市防疫工作，幸好有你們，謝謝。"],["邱委員泰源：謝謝院長、陳老師的鼓勵，以及對全國醫療團隊，還有所有防疫的工作等等再度的鼓勵，其實這些成功是其來有自啦！當然這個努力我也要感謝我們薛瑞元部長在過去幾年當中，在次長的任內跟我們醫界攜手合作，我們到哪裡，他就到哪裡，一樣來做防疫的工作，在這邊特別感謝我們薛部長。","我要講的就是前面的努力其實植基於臺灣的珍貴，所以臺灣應該要更加的和諧、更加的互相攜手，把過去大家所累積的努力，老幹新枝傳承好，繼續守護臺灣。像我剛剛的這個圖，其實是我們臺灣百年以來，醫者就是有關懷人民跟社會的情懷，我也記得我的老師，臺大醫學院前院長謝博生教授，其實我這30年來，不管在醫師公會或者是在立法院，我都跟隨他的理念，他是一個不求名利，只求臺灣好的人，在過去他也跟陳建仁教授有非常多的合作，推動很多很多到現在都還是非常重要的一個工作，所以其實我也都在跟隨他。因為我也是臺大的老師，所以我們也訓練了很多很多優秀、專業的醫療專業同仁，他們都有悲天憫人的情懷，臺灣就是有這樣的資產，我們大家未來可以珍惜、守護臺灣，讓臺灣的專業可以發揮，我想這是人民之福。小弟我在去年也是屆齡從臺大退休了，所以我現在是臺大的名譽教授，但是我想未來我們臺灣有更多更多醫療專業的資源，這是臺灣的一個比較珍貴的地方，因為我們百年來的一個訓練，就是讓我們怎麼樣來關懷人民。","今天應該是很榮幸有機會來這邊發言，也應該是我在立法院最後一次的公開發言，在這邊我還是要表達，臺灣過去百年來醫療人員對人民、對社會的一個貢獻，現在在制度方面，我們也希望未來能夠有所改善，成為一個更好的醫療環境，藉著這樣一個疫情後、疫後，我們就謙虛的來思考，就好像在SARS以後，我們很多醫療體系當時很固執，可是在SARS以後、在921地震以後，我們把醫院跟基層結合起來，共同攜手照顧社區的民眾，一路走來一直到COVID-19，疫後我們更需要來思考，也要珍惜我們這些專業的人員。而且我上次也有建議，在後疫情時代我們應該要怎麼樣來做，其實世界各國都在善待醫事人員，也投入必要的醫療資源，因為他們都站在疫情當中，守護人民的健康。","第二個，在健保方面，臺灣的滿意度高，但是對醫療人員來說，承擔比較重，如果總額沒有辦法隨醫療需求來讓其足夠，是不是應該要想想怎麼樣來健康投資，這個是我們未來疫後要嚴肅面對的問題。","第三個，在基層醫療、社區醫療上，要怎麼樣加強他們的量能跟數位的能力，我希望疫後、未來在建設一個健康臺灣裡面，都可以請我們執政團隊，好好針對這幾點來努力，我也希望執政團隊把這個列入紀錄，畢竟這是醫界的心聲。","當然最後一個小小的請求，就是我們112年第2季、第3季平均點值是0.9，但是希望在第2、3季都能採浮動點值，因為有些平均點值還是會不到0.9，還是很辛苦，診所只要沒有到0.9，其實是很難經營下去的，也拜託行政院後續能再繼續努力。","最後，雖然今天有三個主題，但是我希望不要影響到我們對防疫的成果、臺灣的努力、臺灣人的光榮，衷心感謝防疫工作的研發、政策研擬、實務防疫的團隊及全民的支持跟配合，感謝大家，謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝委員，謝謝你的貢獻。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。接下來請王委員鴻薇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":86,"meet_id":"臨時會院會-10-8-1-1","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林俊憲","賴士葆","邱泰源","王鴻薇","蔡適應","吳斯懷","洪申翰","游毓蘭","莊瑞雄","李德維","吳玉琴","林為洲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-01-09"],"gazette_id":"1130301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130301_00002","1130301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會第1次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n行政院院長提出「是否公布高端合約？是否圖利廠商及危害全民健康權益？」等相關事宜專案報\n告並備質詢─ 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有狀況我們在社區就給它鎖住最好的一個防疫的一個陣線那比如說我們在"},{"start":179.668,"end":208.06,"text":"人員醫院比較緊迫的時候我們可以看下面的部分其實我們也發動了全國的也是在總統的指導之下連基層醫師在出來拚因為醫院緊緊緊繃、人力緊繃還有很多重症需要治療所以我們就動員了四大方向當然也請奧比奧科醫學會來做指導全國來做篩檢的工作當然我們因為人心會需要穩定"},{"start":209.111,"end":234.09,"text":"除了我的老師陳建仁院長給我們全國很大的心理的一個支持以外我們也要給他們做身心壓力的一個照顧這個我們請精神醫學會來幫忙另外在社區還是很多預防保健及慢性的疾病的管理及家級安寧照顧等等的一個照顧其實在我們也請家庭醫學會動員來指導我們跟基層醫師來做"},{"start":238.055,"end":265.487,"text":"最後就是我們的一個社區打疫苗的事情我們請兒科醫學院他們比較會打疫苗來做所以這樣有動員萬民的基層醫療這樣做那這個過程當中我也感謝我們陳建仁老師在這樣的一個工作裡面給我們最大的支持那當然後續完成的六大任務這一次這幾年來最重要的就是不管是PCR的採檢還有就是演技的一個診療大家應該知道這個"},{"start":266.81,"end":287.282,"text":"當台北市在疫情緊繃的時候,一天有1萬個感染者只要有20隻跑到醫院去,醫院急診就崩潰了但是我們政府有一個很好的政策,就是居家的一個醫療,視訊醫療,可以讓得病的人、染疫的人能夠在家裡"},{"start":287.898,"end":311.474,"text":"我們用視訊給他用家庭意識的方式讓小孩子發燒家屬不用把小孩子帶到急診那可以在家裡得到很安心的照顧一萬個每天一萬個病人這樣鎖下來這是臺灣的奇蹟也是世界我想一個典範先看下一張那當然就是在疫苗的追蹤其實也感謝陳"},{"start":313.951,"end":339.942,"text":"其實全部的政府的高層我這個互動當中他們都很支持很鼓勵基層社區來做所以克服了很多的困難讓社區遵守來打疫苗打不到幾個月大概有70%的疫苗是在社區打民眾也得到方便我想這個部分也是當時陳建仁教授給我們最大的一個鼓勵跟用文獻來呈現當然這樣的成果我們"},{"start":344.096,"end":372.511,"text":"也不只在國內所處我們只要分享給我們世界各國剛好我們台灣醫師會跟世界醫師會互動非常好所以我們的專家把我們台灣的很多經驗也分享到世界各國所以世界醫師會更加肯定我們台灣在過去醫療的水準甚至防疫的水準都是一流的更加的堅定支持我們台灣一定要參與WHO的活動所以大家的防疫成果"},{"start":373.058,"end":400.938,"text":"其實是幫我們台灣打下了很多的江山那我也曾經在2021我擔任這個亞大19個國家醫師會的總會長我們也把我們的經驗分享給亞洲19個國家讓他們能夠防疫的更好亞太的安全當然是大家努力的那同時也在2021年的9月在台灣開的西貿大會裡面我們把過去大家努力的經驗、心血"},{"start":403.191,"end":425.861,"text":"呈現在有一個叫做臺北宣言發表在國際間最近也得到WHO世界議事會世界議事會跟WHO息子相關要我們把它正式在REVISE變成世界級的我想都是我們政府民間還有各個專業團體大家一起努力貢獻的一個結果請看下一張那請問"},{"start":430.812,"end":457.472,"text":"院長有沒有對前面這些工作要不要跟我們醫療團隊或者是講幾句話我想台灣在過去2020年開始連續三四年的這個期間我們真的要謝謝我們邱泰源委員還有我們醫事工會甚至全國防疫還有醫療第一線的工作同仁們的辛勞大家的努力確實使得"},{"start":458.713,"end":458.953,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":488.773,"end":488.913,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":507.193,"end":507.253,"text":"邱泰源"},{"start":532.37,"end":547.57,"text":"我們在屏東就壓抑得很好可是我們會發現在新北市跟北市因為有所謂的萬華事件的關係所以這個疫情曾經告急在這樣的一個情況下也幸好"},{"start":547.91,"end":547.97,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":563.072,"end":563.252,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":587.938,"end":588.038,"text":"邱泰源議員"},{"start":609.855,"end":635.252,"text":"謝謝院長陳老師的一個鼓勵以及對全國醫療團隊所有還醫的工作等等的再度的鼓勵那其實這些成功其實是其來有自當然這個努力我也要感謝我們協熱人部長在這過去幾年當中次長任內跟我們醫界攜手合作我們到哪裡他就到哪裡一樣的"},{"start":636.437,"end":658.702,"text":"來做一種防疫的工作在這邊特別感謝我們謝部長那我要講的就是前面的努力其實直擊臺灣的珍貴所以臺灣應該要更加來和諧更加的來互相攜手來把所有過去大家的努力累積的老幹心之傳承好繼續守護這個臺灣像我剛剛這個圖就是"},{"start":662.315,"end":687.79,"text":"我們其實台灣百年來醫者就是關懷人民跟社會的情懷那我也記得我的老師臺大醫學院的前院長謝伯仁教授其實我這30年來所有在不管在醫師公會或者是在立委案上我都跟隨他的理念他是一個不求名利只求台灣好的人在過去他也跟陳建仁教授非常合作在推動很多很多到現在"},{"start":689.336,"end":694.18,"text":"臺灣有這樣的資產,我們未來可以珍惜守護臺灣,讓臺灣的專業發揮,我想是人民之福"},{"start":713.393,"end":735.568,"text":"那小弟我大概在去年也是借領臺大退休的所以我現在是臺大的名譽教授那但是我想未來我想我們有更多更多臺灣更多的醫療專業的職業這是臺灣的一個比較珍貴的因為我們的訓練百年來就是讓我們怎麼樣關懷人民所以這中間我還是因為我也算是"},{"start":735.973,"end":764.574,"text":"今天應該是很榮幸又有機會來這邊發言應該是我在立法院最後一次公開發言我在這邊還是要表達說臺灣過去百年來醫療人員對人民對社會的一個貢獻那現在的一個制度方面我們希望未來怎麼樣改善一個更好的醫療環境那藉著這樣的一個疫情的一個異後我們就謙虛的思考就好像我們SARS以後我們很多醫療體系當時"},{"start":765.865,"end":793.563,"text":"很固執可是到此以後從地震911地震以後我們把醫院跟基層合作起來共同攜手來照顧社區的民眾一路走來到一個COVID-19那天以後我們更是要來思考那要珍惜我們這些專業人員但是請看下一張但是我上次也有建議其實在後疫情時代我們怎麼樣其實世界各國都在善待"},{"start":794.438,"end":822.354,"text":"議事人員投入必要的醫療資源因為他們都站在疫情當中守護人民的健康第二個就是說如果在健保方面也是臺灣的滿意度高但是對醫療人員是承擔比較重如果總而沒有辦法隨醫療需求來承足夠是不是應該要怎麼樣來健康投資這個是我們未來、以後要嚴肅面對的問題第三個在基層醫療、社區醫療怎麼樣加強他們的量能"},{"start":823.342,"end":850.129,"text":"跟數位的努力我想以後未來我希望建設一個健康台灣裡面這幾點都可以請我們執政部團隊未來好好的針對這個來努力那我也希望執政團隊把這個列入紀錄將來這是一屆的行程當然最後一個小小的請求就是我們112年第二季第三季平均點子0.9但是其實希望"},{"start":851.049,"end":855.052,"text":"雖然今天有上個主題,但是我希望不要影響到我們對防疫的成果、台灣的努力、台灣人的光榮"},{"start":877.594,"end":883.563,"text":"衷心感謝防疫工作的研發政策原理實務防疫的團隊及全民的支持跟配合感謝大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15362","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609ef0f782adc51579d0078128132256bcb46d53a332764a535c22f6b8524ae51695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-01-08T10:15:00+08:00","會議名稱":"全院委員談話會（事由：定於本（113）年1月8日（星期一）上午10時15分在本院議場舉行全院委員談話會，決定是否召開第10屆第8會期第1次臨時會之相關事宜，請查照出席。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-01-08","start_time":"2024-01-08T09:59:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-01-08T10:25:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":1502,"委員發言時間":"09:59:58 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院長各位同仁大家好"},{"start":2522.776,"end":2548.422,"text":"本席會同37位國民黨團提出要召開臨時會那為什麼要召開臨時會以下是我們的具體理由第一點是賴清德總統候選人在12月30號說有關高端的契約要公佈"},{"start":2550.614,"end":2554.519,"text":"來釐清外界的爭議 這第一點第二點就是"},{"start":2556.876,"end":2582.724,"text":"這個企業有沒有圖利特定廠商第三點就是過去這疫苗也打了但是外國都不接受所以到底當時購買的高端的疫苗到底有沒有符合國際的標準能不能確保國人的權益這三件事情我們黨團建議召開臨時會邀請陳正遠院長"},{"start":2586.063,"end":2610.118,"text":"來立法院講清楚說明板給國人一個具體的交代其實我可以講得更細一點其實假設政府要培植國內的疫苗產業國民黨團強力支持但是可以比照過去國民黨時代培植台積電的方式你補助他你補助他"},{"start":2611.331,"end":2636.823,"text":"你要補助他五億十億二十億 國民黨團都支持但是你不能為了要培植高端阻礙我們國人要捐贈疫苗也好 或者購買疫苗也好過去你看連工商協進會 連慈濟連活光山要捐給黨真的是拿人民的健康開玩笑"},{"start":2638.407,"end":2650.716,"text":"第二點就是我手上這個是高端公司的整個交易的情況從2020年的27塊炒到20215月31號的417塊到現在"},{"start":2660.373,"end":2684.822,"text":"只是雙位數啦 這個過程當中 多少的散戶受傷慘重但是都不願意啊 這個我都查檢調 查一查這邊的內心因為現在檢調在你們手上 而這裡而且更何況金管會移送了九次資料 我這裡是比較 把九次裡面比較嚴重的"},{"start":2686.697,"end":2707.993,"text":"跟大家來報告第一個是一百零九年十二月三十一號高端疫苗公告終止跟馬來西亞MCV公司備忘錄的協議你看那當時是十二月三十一號那十二月"},{"start":2710.026,"end":2710.266,"text":"另外更誇張的是110年5月13號"},{"start":2736.845,"end":2753.899,"text":"6點半那一天蔡英文總統宣布預計7月底可以開始供應第一波國產疫苗那一天是6點半才開記者會其實我們來看一看5月10號交易量是2118張5月11號交易量跳到"},{"start":2758.809,"end":2784.278,"text":"七千兩百七十八張五月十二號跳到一萬三千五百五十八張五月十三號跳到一萬六千一百零八張我這說沒有內線交易我真的不相信本人當過金管會檢察局局長金管會主委這個說沒有內線交易我真的不相信"},{"start":2785.748,"end":2799.858,"text":"另外,114.6月10日,高端疫苗宣布新冠肺炎疫苗二期臨床試驗期間分析數據的解盲"},{"start":2801.718,"end":2812.004,"text":"你看6月7號交易量是2,301張6月8號交易量又跳升到8,740張6月9號跳到7,439張6月11號交易量只有355張你說這個沒有內地交易檢調查一查說沒有檢調在你們手上要查就查 不查就不查啦"},{"start":2833.573,"end":2845.141,"text":"所以我還是這樣 很多的散戶 罵死了從27塊漲到417塊 現在又跌下來多少散戶 損失慘重這哪有公平正義 謝謝"},{"start":2863.993,"end":2889.695,"text":"邱總長謝謝院長還有各黨團黨編我想今天協商的重點是要來召開臨時會針對高端採購合約還有相關國人的疑慮要進行臨時會的召開那我們先表達臺灣民眾黨團的立場我們要求也是贊成要儘速召開臨時會並且邀請行政院陳建仁院長到國會來做專案報告"},{"start":2891.636,"end":2911.565,"text":"報告的內容包含這個高端疫苗的採購合約的相關細節的公開第二個就是針對相關這個過程中EUA的申請還有高端這個研發的一個過程甚至是剛剛提到的有股價異常的波動是不是有圖利特定的廠商等等那另一個方面針對這個要害損害的賠償其實這幾個"},{"start":2916.788,"end":2937.046,"text":"主張都應該在這次的臨時會專案報告中向國人說清楚講明白我們重申台灣民眾黨絕對贊成國家發展戰略物資疫苗的國產疫苗的一個開發但是不能接受的是這過程中的不夠公開透明甚至是不是有土地特定廠商那高端"},{"start":2937.566,"end":2957.235,"text":"身為一個上市公司其實他對於政府的採購案他有對國人說明的義務跟權益所以我們認為他本來就應該要公開透明但是兩年前高端卻說是衛福部要求不公開那衛福部到底為什麼這麼害怕我們可以看到其實這一次包含這個在總統辯論會的時候賴清德總統候選人他也公開贊成說這個他同意"},{"start":2963.158,"end":2986.583,"text":"要來公開相關的合約但是我們看到行政院的這個副院長鄭文燦副院長說衛福部跟高端會協商公佈時間由兩者決定那可以說是兩邊互相甩過來甩過去那行政院院長也先放訊息說合約公開必須高端開股東會同意那衛福部的薛瑞元也打臉說解密需要董事會開會決議衛福部將持續跟對方聯繫但是時間無法預測那是什麼樣是"},{"start":2991.684,"end":3009.112,"text":"你們如果沒有這個協議的結果你們就不公開了嗎那包含之前的這個衛福部長陳時中也說簽過的合約就可以任意公開嗎而且這批評是對合約的不尊重這種人當總統必然是災難我覺得這個這樣的說法是沒有人可以接受的"},{"start":3009.372,"end":3031.428,"text":"那我們這邊也提供一個資訊這個是高端公司他在這個110年5月28號對外發布的重訊會外發布的重訊當時的第六點他就有明確的提到這個相關限制的條款解除者不適用依採購機關的要求合約其他細節不予公開重點在這一句依採購機關的要求"},{"start":3033.149,"end":3061.165,"text":"也就是說高端公司在110年的5月28號對外的重訊就已經明確說出了採購合約沒有辦法對外公開是因為針對採購機關的要求那採購機關是誰那就是我們的衛福部嘛就是我們的行政院嘛那到底是誰在打假球到底是誰在甩鍋我們希望這一次可以把它釐清清楚另一個部分到底是封存還是保存我們可以看到這個部分是審計部在這個"},{"start":3062.826,"end":3089.656,"text":"第六會期第四次會議的關係文書當時就已經有提出了集管署歷次採購的簽辦文件軍衛件價格分析資料或者依據且部分採購的文件保密期限長達30年以上到140年使得解密那這個不是封存什麼是封存審計部的報告中也明確的指出了所以包含我們談到了近期我們可以看到上次賴清德副總統"},{"start":3090.516,"end":3090.976,"text":"８立法院黨團提議８"},{"start":3102.995,"end":3103.015,"text":"委員．．"},{"start":3121.109,"end":3148.682,"text":"第一個採購合約的內容第二個針對股價有沒有異常波動有沒有土地特定廠商還有相關EUA的申請我們可以看到這個高端的大試劑在2020年到2021年從二期臨床的試驗獲准到2021年5月30號簽約採購還有到6月10號公布EUA的標準下午就二期解碼這中間中間其實有太多國人需要瞭解的一個狀況包含我們剛剛講到"},{"start":3150.103,"end":3169.33,"text":"是不是也有 這我們其實在前年十一月我們有到監察院去提出這個檢舉案 包含這中間有沒有委託一式中資公司丘與斯來進行二期臨床實驗在這個疫情這麼緊急的狀況下 國人對疫苗需求這麼急迫的狀況下 是不是有一路護航高端 然後來去擋這個海外的這個相關國際已經認證的疫苗"},{"start":3172.991,"end":3194.168,"text":"這個其實很多國人都需要瞭解所以我們主張臨時會一定要召開那相關院長報告的內容也不僅止於合約採購的細節應該還要把相關的疑慮都一次講清楚說明白所以這個是民眾黨的基本態度 謝謝好 謝謝邱總召接下來陳嬌華總召副總召謝謝院長"},{"start":3200.373,"end":3225.108,"text":"我想高端這個事件從疫情開始就是國產疫苗福祉國產疫苗到現在燒這麼久到2024大選前還有很多沒有釐清那我在這個過程中聽到聽到民眾抱怨執政黨"},{"start":3225.836,"end":3253.704,"text":"最多之一就是疫苗包括高端這個事情所以我們看到全面執政那全面執政即使有做錯事情不敢公開隱瞞我覺得這也是國人對於執政黨的不滿非常不滿所以現在大家會喊出不要過半"},{"start":3255.777,"end":3277.163,"text":"三黨不過半 四黨不過半當然我們也希望大家支持時代力量當然要過5%我們還在努力那今天我要表達的不管幾黨不過半不要傲慢啊你即使八年執政過半"},{"start":3280.808,"end":3307.015,"text":"像這麼簡單的事情拖這麼久我覺得柯總召真的要負最大的責任不公開啊2021年未完委員會成立調閱專案小組那很多重要的資訊衛福部都遮蔽全黑土黑為什麼衛福部敢把它土黑一定是柯總召同意的啊縱容這些行政部門這麼的多這麼的"},{"start":3312.819,"end":3328.235,"text":"蠻憨都是被柯總召你寵壞了啊所以剛剛我們聽到 邱總召說的高端 可以公開啊就是採購單位 我們衛福部不敢那陳時中在怕什麼"},{"start":3329.4,"end":3350.556,"text":"所以今天我們希望盡快公開盡快公開搞不好可以救我們執政黨的選情不要再隱瞞了我覺得高登這個事情讓很多國人都受不了講都講不清楚每次都用這個過半的表決來否定該"},{"start":3351.437,"end":3369.948,"text":"公開透明的事情 也是我們非常不滿司法改革 隱蔽者保護法 到這一屆都不願意送進來都是柯總召把行政部門 把行政院都寵壞了甚至監察院也不查 司法也不查 我們非常不滿身為在野黨 我們還是要把這個事情講清楚"},{"start":3377.082,"end":3399.257,"text":"所以今天時代力量我們支持要召開臨時會．盡快來公布高端所有的合約．甚至包括司法改革的進度．還有這次選舉．所有的查會．反屆選的這個結果．都要一併來報告．以上 謝謝好 謝謝接下來顧總召 顧總召完了以後就賴委員"},{"start":3404.383,"end":3419.565,"text":"院長、各位政黨代表我剛才只是聆聽陳佳浩委員都有多所恭維事實上已經可能你自己都搞不清楚你在講什麼話"},{"start":3420.937,"end":3440.079,"text":"你不要批評人喔,講不清楚,我剛剛不是講很清楚你講話我就不講話,你怎麼跟我講話?你媽媽我都沒意見,但是我要說明一件事,你總是想我聽一下好不好這是民主社會是這樣嘛,什麼事都說我也沒關係啦,但是事實上不是這樣一回事嘛黨團有黨團的立場嘛"},{"start":3441.3,"end":3461.235,"text":"今天有新任立場各部會有各部會立場但是我剛才講聽了就是說第一點齁在上禮拜三齁當中鄭文忠總召提出要召開臨時會那我一直覺得很悶辣齁那既然要召開臨時會的時候那當然我們必須我回答很清楚那就"},{"start":3462.095,"end":3466.198,"text":"有關於高端的事情,包括疫苗的事情,至少我們經過百人大議,我們國人一起努力,好不容易走出這裏"},{"start":3480.849,"end":3494.267,"text":"但在中間我們一直看到 國民黨在一黨一直拿國人健康來做消費來做供給武器這是非常不道德 到今天為止還在這樣搞那所謂什麼包庇啊等等 什麼EUA還要從頭到尾再講英文"},{"start":3496.91,"end":3518.032,"text":"這代表什麼呢?在我個人看法,就是說,國民黨是不是選情告急的?或與這個選情告急,這個要轉移凱旋醫院或是基礎圖利的問題,而所請農祭求嘛,所以說敗鄉與陸啦。因為選舉到最後已經是在審某幾百個同學題目以為這個是可以翻版嗎?"},{"start":3519.433,"end":3536.09,"text":"這個題目已經吵了兩年多了那各位在黨現在還在講這個什麼檢察官是我們在指揮的這已經有六十個案子已經移送檢調都不起訴我們把這從頭到尾讓他冷靜來想一想今天國家面對這個我們能夠走出來"},{"start":3537.071,"end":3551.226,"text":"我沒有阻擋 阻擋購買疫苗 當初BNT疫苗是國安局 國安台沒去處理的啊大家都努力在買疫苗當然 國安協議會是要買台灣疫苗 但這些都已經說下去了這個題目也不是新的題目 也不是新的戰場"},{"start":3552.591,"end":3567.561,"text":"大事我是覺得國民黨心虛,閒情告急,這是我的看法至於王榮維他講說我召集行政部門以及行政部門來開會本來就是這麼一回事其實這是一體,行政立法是一體,面對臨時會的時候"},{"start":3569.742,"end":3594.393,"text":"突然 國民黨要開臨時會當然我們必須要交換意見嘛包括我相信 國民黨這次要開召開臨時會 後裔也知道啊這選擇的官方本來就是 大家各陣營都質疑會有所因應嘛 這沒有什麼不可告人之事搞得好像他們來看我 這就是一個什麼必然的樣子國民黨已經是說 荒村亂離啦 殺無門可殺 毆不活啦這是我的看法"},{"start":3597.93,"end":3623.979,"text":"好 謝謝有關於高端的事情運馬的事情我再做一個簡單的描述過去 行政議員做專案報告已經灑白了剛才也談到第二小組蔣萬安或是後來陳一貞已經兩次第二小組 大家都看過一計多少錢 八百多塊都很清楚沒有說必然不必然況且"},{"start":3626.519,"end":3627.762,"text":"在議員的責任報告裡面,總共有16次責任報告,換句話說"},{"start":3635.037,"end":3641.885,"text":"張安邦報告六次十六次吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼"},{"start":3656.921,"end":3673.432,"text":"那 審計部 審計部也做出了 也做出了啦現在所有的資訊 合約全部在審計部在監裁院那前兩天 上前兩天 二部部長去告你都會說 也把整個合約全部送給你"},{"start":3674.532,"end":3675.133,"text":"所以對於今天"},{"start":3694.066,"end":3708.699,"text":"接下來我們要談的就是說,我們談經驗程序嘛,差不多每個工程都知道每個意思,我看是這樣,因為我們今天也很滿發小動,我們也發小動,當然等一下我們回去開一個黨黨會議,馬上有結論。"},{"start":3710.841,"end":3730.078,"text":"結果說我們就來處理這個黨派會不管開不開都要舉辦黨派會開就開,不開就是大家表決負責但是我們會馬上有很清楚的答案因為這個不可能不面對我的看法就是說,差不多這樣子我們在這裡在中央相對盤馬上馬上馬上馬上馬上"},{"start":3733.061,"end":3734.262,"text":"好 謝謝接下來賴委員"},{"start":3752.418,"end":3773.311,"text":"謝謝幾位總召還有我們想在第八會期最後又臨時會召開的這個可能性我覺得還是要珍惜因為畢竟國會還是國人知的權利裡面最直接的地方那剛剛我聽柯總召意思應該是不排斥這樣子我想是一個正向的態度不管等一下你們黨團會如果這個"},{"start":3775.892,"end":3795.493,"text":"如果等一下你們黨團會議能夠從善如流我覺得也是還大家一個所謂在知的權利上的公道因為我看到我們的前衛福部長陳時中他之前在1月3號他也支持趕快公佈合約畢竟這是在他任內大家對他質疑最多的地方"},{"start":3796.013,"end":3825.536,"text":"那如果今天剛剛我們的這個陳江華委員說柯總召太寵行政單位那我希望我們真的不要寵高端公司畢竟這是一個民間的公司但是他拿了國家這個多的研究經費跟採購的疫苗費用這個公司必須要公開透明讓國人知道到底他的合約裡面在行政部門也好在他自己的所謂剛剛重訓等等的這個涉及內線的疑雲也好他也必須要對國人"},{"start":3825.856,"end":3850.854,"text":"畢竟他是一個上市的公司第二個我相信我們還是要記憶猶新剛剛雖然柯總召講了幾次可是我還是要講第一次在未還委員會我們在5月30號110年5月31號當要通過這個COVID-19的防治及紓困特別條例的時候我們黨團就已經主張能夠透過以前像疫苗採購調閱委員會的方式來實踐我們的監督權"},{"start":3854.536,"end":3881.195,"text":"當時也是被科總招號重重的就是否決那最後變成疫苗採購的調閱小組那本人是小組成員我是關鍵一票所以我們在未還委員會有調閱小組但很可惜我去看了幾次的合約都是塗黑比較多三分之二左右是塗黑我當時就跟國人講說我想去看的是如果他的採購數量沒有如期交貨到底違約部分怎麼履約"},{"start":3882.136,"end":3911.159,"text":"第二 我想看每一季多少錢到底它的這個價格的分析是用什麼資訊通通都看不到所以我覺得今天如果在臨時會也能夠通過整個合約公布出土就不用塗黑讓大家用猜的這個我相信是一個對的方向也希望等一下民進黨黨團能夠把這個所謂合約以不塗黑的方式讓高端公司對社會各界公布以及陳建仁院長"},{"start":3911.92,"end":3931.801,"text":"到立院來接受質詢．我相信這才是反黑箱要公正．反黑箱有真相．的一個最好的結果第二個我相信大家國人擔心的還是說重視我們用了這麼多的預算去把國產疫苗吹升出來可是這過程裡面有沒有像"},{"start":3932.321,"end":3946.386,"text":"解盲未成就公布可以簽約解盲後的當天才出現EUA審查的標準有沒有量身訂做有沒有先設建再劃把這個也要還機關署一個公道不然我想剛剛大家都說"},{"start":3947.906,"end":3968.696,"text":"這個衛福部帶領國人走出了百年大義可是一雲重重之下不是也讓他們有了污名化的一個印記這是不對的那我希望我們今天的這個臨時會的決議可以讓大家更面對如果對於一個上市公司的重訓已經讓國人產生疑慮那在總統的辯論裡面總統的候選人等都"},{"start":3973.598,"end":3973.838,"text":"相關事宜："},{"start":3991.312,"end":3992.052,"text":"好 謝謝接下來鄭總召 鄭總往來就 呃 劉素安委員講"},{"start":4020.27,"end":4039.446,"text":"好 謝謝針對剛剛柯建民總召提到了 國民黨提出這個要召開臨時會 因為外界外界對這個覺得疑雲重重 黑幕重重 尤其是最近高端內部的錄音黨出來之後"},{"start":4042.252,"end":4062.642,"text":"國民黨覺得作為在野黨最大在野黨有必要邀請行政院或相關部會來講清楚說明白不是基於國民黨的選情國民黨的選情非常樂觀我們會去執行超過六成五的民眾希望下架民進黨的這個最大共識這是第一點"},{"start":4063.542,"end":4083.959,"text":"科建民提到了 既然這個資料已經送地檢署 送檢察院那為什麼不送給立法院 這奇怪囉所以藐視立法院 送給地檢署 也送給檢察院那當時公開的是遮遮掩掩 那就直接公佈吧 謝謝"},{"start":4086.203,"end":4086.743,"text":"民主程序"},{"start":4104.138,"end":4104.158,"text":"蔣麗芸"},{"start":4133.098,"end":4160.79,"text":"第一 特別把高端拿出來是不是我們也在變相炒作高端呢曾總召特別提到什麼股價等等這些然後剛剛有特別提到說政黨要全面執政所以有弊端重重然後有提到說這個高端疫苗在技術性上面的緊急EUA等等有沒有什麼議題跟大家報告大家都心知肚明在這一次兩三年以來有關高端的部分"},{"start":4161.61,"end":4185.859,"text":"已經舉行過24次,包括行政院長的報告、疫苗調閱小組、專報跟公聽會,裡面有19次都是國民黨的人當召委或是當主席,還有包括蔣萬安、陳玉珍、張玉美,這些甚至還有費鴻泰,不管是在財政方面,或者是在未還方面,都是報告得非常的清楚。"},{"start":4186.459,"end":4187.019,"text":"外交國防委員會"},{"start":4210.637,"end":4224.528,"text":"民進黨的立場有關任何的爭議或是弊案當然要處理我們站在立法院監督行政院的立場上面不管你是在財政方面或者是說在整個的處理程序方面請提出來新的說法"},{"start":4225.388,"end":4244.967,"text":"新的說法只是說在總統大選辯論的時候賴清德說要公開但是公開也不是倉促的公開公開的時候你在程序要解開之前也要有一定的SOP否則我們就變成獨裁國家啦皇帝照約然後下令馬上就要封存下令馬上就要做解約等等這些其實不對"},{"start":4245.888,"end":4272.953,"text":"這就是我們在民主社會裡面的國會運作上面應該有的程序那另外剛剛也提到說檢調是否就是聽這個民進黨的完全相反從這次中國借選我們在偵辦地方上的里長或者是社區委員會等等每一黨都有每一黨都有那如果說很多人在質疑檢調的部分的話我覺得這個其實不符合民主的那個三權分立的權利的分立的原則那剛剛還有人提到"},{"start":4274.448,"end":4302.284,"text":"高端內部有錄音黨是否涉及弊案我覺得這種影射的殺傷力在選舉前就是會最強所以既然你們認為裡面確實是有民進黨的官員或是民進黨的若干人涉及弊案的話請直接移送檢調要來偵查最快你也可以說這個企圖影響總統大選可以用選罷法來偵辦不必要遮遮掩掩用影射的方式然後用媒體的傳播的力量"},{"start":4302.924,"end":4325.81,"text":"只是用這種片段的訊息來影射民進黨在執政當中所產生的這些議題那我一再重複就是說我們在臨時會裡面我們並不會迴避這個議題但是如果你們一直在講高端公司高端公司高端公司我認為有點變相在炒作高端公司好與壞大家心知肚明那再來就是回應剛剛也是我們在野黨這個陳佳華委員所說的"},{"start":4328.13,"end":4354.942,"text":"其實現在民進黨並沒有全面執政在地方政府上面全面執政的叫國民黨十七八個國民黨執政的地方然後那個陳家瑋委你看了很多環保廢棄物的問題難道不就是由國民黨執政的地方首長涉及隱秘涉及貪污等等這些議題嗎其實你也是心知肚明所以不要把所有你們認為弊端的部分全部一股腦然後就推到民進黨的身上我們覺得不以為取謝謝"},{"start":4356.434,"end":4356.594,"text":"張綺路委員"},{"start":4371.789,"end":4372.67,"text":"今天當然我們還是回到正題 需要的是說我們開臨時會"},{"start":4390.342,"end":4405.867,"text":"最主要是要公布這個高端的合約這個資訊我必須直說啦其實相關的問題我們當然也不贅述了因為我必須這樣跟大家報告我們在2022年11月1號我想台灣民眾黨黨團我們就已經去監察院檢舉了"},{"start":4406.667,"end":4431.5,"text":"就是今天談的所有這些問題那我們也知道在檢調已經送了60幾案但是也是沒有任何的結果那如果今天這個現象就是這樣的話我們也只是說為什麼都沒有結果監察院也說因為顯然是那個基礎的資訊就是那份合約根本是欠缺資訊的嘛所以就是因為沒有資訊所以不管誰來做當然都是沒有結果"},{"start":4432.04,"end":4455.818,"text":"所以這個才是真問題所以如果現在是這樣講我們當然也奉勸執政黨如果說覺得說問心無愧都沒有任何問題那全部就把它打開嘛那大家再來看嘛我覺得這就是關鍵所以今天其實臨時會的目的就是說資訊到底能不能是透明的是公開的大家能夠來審閱的因為否則的話今天賴委員在之前的委員會也是釣魚小組也看了"},{"start":4456.278,"end":4475.758,"text":"全部都是塗黑的 三分之一嗎 還是多少 三分之二塗黑的那很抱歉喔 三分之二塗黑的東西 誰能查得出什麼東西呢那但是事實上 其實我想剛才我們國民黨 我們曾總召也講了其實這個股價是很明顯的一件事 我們在監察院的資料也講得很清楚你看從二十幾塊 到了四百多塊錢"},{"start":4476.759,"end":4491.148,"text":"中間從20億的市值 變成1300億的市值這中間又來來回回這些當然我們就不贅述 但是它就是一個事實到底能不能解除國人的疑慮那坦白說 剛才各位黨面也講了一些政治性的東西我只補充一點點"},{"start":4492.108,"end":4506.854,"text":"政治當然是有攻防 但是說實話 如果大家都覺得說沒有問題 問心無愧 那你就把它公開起來而且事實上坦白說 今天要是執政黨還是不願意公開 我坦白講以坐我們在野黨還蠻高興的 為什麼 那就繼續這樣子"},{"start":4508.294,"end":4523.789,"text":"因為繼續這樣子 我想1月13號倒楣的可能會是執政黨所以我是覺得說當然我們就奉勸說就是把資訊完全打開反正大家能夠看清楚的資訊它是怎麼回事 那往前嘛大家再來有公斷嘛 就是這樣好 以上"},{"start":4524.529,"end":4524.729,"text":"主席"},{"start":4546.061,"end":4567.737,"text":"大家政治互有攻防但是我們必須強調這次連賴清德副總統也就是我們民進黨總統候選人他都已經公開表達要來去公開相關高端的這些內容所以我們認為這是要讓國人有知的權利因為這不只涉及採購合約包含這中間的這個股價的問題後續要害賠償的問題其實很多國人對這個議題是非常關心的那我剛剛這樣聽起來的話我是認為我們今天的這個差異協商應該回歸到"},{"start":4576.524,"end":4582.348,"text":"主題的主軸我們認為還是希望民進黨可以同意來去召開臨時會第二輪發言我想我回應一下我想"},{"start":4598.413,"end":4613.075,"text":"民進黨執政八年以來﹐我們接避著保護法﹐不法饋政﹐不法關說﹐一直不願意立法或修法﹐那這個部分﹐我想國人對於司法改革非常失望﹐"},{"start":4616.353,"end":4633.318,"text":"施拉利漾接壁的禁電試案（包括我們國民黨也一起（來要求禁電試案的這個弊端（在司法（或者是在我們這幾年來的（非常多的提案都被否決封殺（所以（"},{"start":4637.403,"end":4660.437,"text":"包括在野黨的失望包括國人的失望我在這裡還是要請執政黨能夠聽進去你們的傲慢或者是你們用這種霸凌式的過半的否決真的是讓非常多人不滿包括國人非常不滿所以"},{"start":4661.434,"end":4686.428,"text":"今天提到廢棄物提到很多中央我們在修法方面可以處理的包括廢清法我進第十屆立法院我講了非常非常多次廢清法要修才能夠去解決現在非常嚴重的廢棄物的不法的傾倒掩埋但是都被否決掉了"},{"start":4687.438,"end":4696.234,"text":"都被我們包括柯總召等寵壞了都不願意送進來所以今天我最後要表達的"},{"start":4700.103,"end":4721.615,"text":"就是我要拜託 民進黨團不要再這麼傲慢了 該公開還是要公開 這才是國人之福好 謝謝教育委員 現在發言告一段落 告一段落 剛才崑永昭有說要再表示意見來發言告一段落了 大家的心證也很清楚嘛"},{"start":4722.575,"end":4739.441,"text":"既然要開一次會,那我們就來面對吧。這第一個前提。至於接下來程序,因為現在法院還沒開,連一場大門都沒有開門啊。這很奇怪啊。怎麼一場大門不開呢?"},{"start":4741.747,"end":4742.328,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4759.269,"end":4779.7,"text":"今天不管有開沒開都要談談話會所以門一場不能等要打開就第一點第二點有公私話我們現在就可以來處理了就說等一下談話會大概就是各黨沒有意見就以國民黨這個提案至於最快就是明天要不然幾點到幾點一般是九點到"},{"start":4783.061,"end":4783.441,"text":"市長報告時間9到幾點"},{"start":4796.138,"end":4818.374,"text":"一般來講專報的時間的話就是行政院長他要報告差不多30分鐘那如果說是一天的會議的話我們整天會議就是6個半小時所以會有6個小時的時間幾點到幾點一個人是15分鐘要幾點就是如果說你們是要開一天的專報那早上就是30分鐘是行政院長做報告"},{"start":4819.366,"end":4831.184,"text":"那剩下就是整天的話到下午六點的話是有六個小時那六個小時是一個小時四個人那就是二十四個人來按照政黨比例來區分"},{"start":4834.85,"end":4838.333,"text":"沒關係 今天我們來就好了 大家互相互相互相互相互相互相互"},{"start":4859.209,"end":4861.153,"text":"如果通過要開臨時會當然就是照正常的"},{"start":4869.254,"end":4890.656,"text":"如果大家協商有共識是要開這個院會我們現在可以打個草稿就是我們在談話會宣讀這個協商結論然後就定一個時間邀請行政院長來做講說是明天或什麼時候明天是明天早上難道是協會再來嗎那是明天就是星期二嘛我們現在寫下協商結論"},{"start":4893.158,"end":4893.378,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4917.488,"end":4936.473,"text":"現在如果這樣可能要十點半喔沒有啦 這樣十分二十你們接著 喔 不好意思啊稍後我們 大家如果同意的話待會輸你去喔好 輸過了你問我們拋棍也問你去嘛那立委在門口上不好意思吧因為這個要改進嘛可是要開談話會的 怎麼門不開好好 現在好"},{"start":4946.091,"end":4955.278,"text":"請大家稍微一下題目就是原來曾總召你們黨團提的這個部分我們知道這個國民黨選情告急沒有辦法請問一下如果明天開那個合約資訊何時可以拉你明天去問他嘛"},{"start":4972.483,"end":4973.204,"text":"韓國瑜的題目就在這裡嘛"},{"start":5000.433,"end":5001.554,"text":"公開形勢還是要明確好不好?我們明天會處理這個事"},{"start":5027.881,"end":5033.632,"text":"合約資訊可不可以今天五點前提供給黨團（各個黨團明天我們質詢是跟之前的訊息一樣怎麼對勒"},{"start":5037.275,"end":5064.148,"text":"我們現在是要求他來專案報告所以有很多的資訊因為就是很多資訊我們還不瞭解要專案報告所以一下子當然黨團是沒有辦法提供出來所以他報告的時候可能資訊同時可以對外公布我們具體建議是不是協商協議裡面要求行政院是不是今天下午三點以前或五點以前五點以前提供書面的資料他們提供書面資料沒有關係"},{"start":5066.209,"end":5085.933,"text":"提供給我們 不然我們質詢內容跟院長是不對等的我們具體建議啦 請行政院校五點以前提供 反正齁 明天要來做專案報告以前他已經有把私人報告送來嘛你不能明天早上才送 今天要先給五點以前要有資訊 不能不對等協商不行這本來就是這回事 行政院長做專案報告一定要私人報告"},{"start":5099.622,"end":5119.855,"text":"每次你們得到的資訊都比我們多五倍以上所以 而且你還先去跟他們開會啦他已經把所有內容告訴你我們的內容都是零啊我還行政部人士行政立法是幾天開會是很正常的啊那建國權的人資訊不對等是不行的沒有什麼資訊不對等我們也沒有什麼資訊啊我們常常那個資料都是早上才收到"},{"start":5120.555,"end":5127.296,"text":"我跟柯總召感情很好我們盡量請行政院盡早提供書面資料好不好最好能夠在今天因為我們今天才決定要不要開嘛所以他們一定要寫啊現在決定要開然後我有程序就要知道程序來嘛"},{"start":5159.711,"end":5164.172,"text":"他現在在印,印了會給大家,是不是我先練一下"},{"start":5174.288,"end":5192.105,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論決定事項1月9日星期二邀請行政院院長率同相關部會所長列席提出就社會公布高端核A社會圖利廠商及危害公民健康權益"},{"start":5192.705,"end":5218.203,"text":"等相關事宜進行專案報告並被執行執行人數由民進黨黨團推派11人 國民黨黨團推派7人臺灣民眾黨黨團及時代力量黨團各推派1人進行會參加黨團委員得優先發言執行順序一例授權御書處辦理上述名單請你1月8日 星期一下午4時前送交御書處會長 預時視同放棄"},{"start":5221.735,"end":5231.826,"text":"看可不可以 有沒有要修正來實力可以可以啊可以都開始了"},{"start":5240.646,"end":5243.508,"text":"臺灣會可以提早一點嗎?臺灣會可以提早十分鐘嗎?"},{"start":5268.656,"end":5276.94,"text":"明天是九點喔 九點開始喔 照正常交往委員 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":26,"end_time":"2023-12-19T08:30:38+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T08:30:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[],"whisperx":[]}},{"id":"149074","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149074","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84ef6cdb509e3495cc163f0728b672d2277c986728e607a0322f5e92c6d24b32f115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張其祿","委員發言時間":"12:06:03 - 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":191,"end_time":"2023-12-19T12:09:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T12:06:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":21,"blocks":[["張委員其祿：（12時6分）院長、各位委員。我們國內的房價一路的飆漲，房價所得比接近十倍，全國房貸負擔率也飆升至41.19%，創下歷史的紀錄。同時在2018年到2022年間，六都房租每坪中位數的漲幅也遠比主計總處真實的統計要更為驚人，許多的投資客大量湧入囤房、炒房，將之視之為投機商品，已經造成整個房市的混亂及居住的不正義。","我們也知道因為房屋稅屬於地方稅，稅率的高低端看各地方政府的自治條例，也導致全國這個稅率的不統一，陷入中央地方高喊低收的困境。而且房屋稅的公式是稅基乘稅率，稅基的評定又是地方權責，稅基普遍過低跟實價、市價差距遙遠的狀況，也導致我們在調整房屋稅率時的一個困難，甚至沒有達到政策的效果。","因此，本黨團這邊主張，應該先採取有效的，當然以目前囤房稅的版本，我們只能夠提高稅率，本黨是要求課以10%的重稅來降低自然人、法人持有多房的誘因。台灣民眾黨長期關注住居的正義，對臺灣高房價的問題，囤房稅也只能說是一個開端而絕非終點。事實上我們也並不滿意這一次由行政院所提出來的這個版本，因為我們知道，對於現在真正的問題如果只調整稅率而不調整稅基的話，其實是達不到政策的目標。因此本黨團也已經提出中央囤房特別稅的草案，但是我們知道在這一屆國會可能已經沒有這個機會能夠通過。如何讓稅率不統一以及稅基偏低這兩個大問題真正得到解決，才是未來我們在這個工作上最重要所要達成的一個目標。","本黨團其實始終是臺灣最為堅持所謂住居正義，也一直將其列為本黨最重要的政策方針。其實我們真實最終的目標是希望達成三實政策，包括第一個就是實價課稅，第二個就是實坪制，第三個就是實際居住者甚至可以低稅或免稅。我想未來只有往這三個目標真正地去前進，我們才能真正完成目標，今天這個只是一個開端的工作。","當然，這一次的囤房稅我們只能採以所謂漸進式的修法，雖然我們不滿意現在院版這樣的一個版本，但是為了能夠讓住居正義往前邁進，我們還是先逐步的往前繼續前進。謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝張委員。","接下來請吳委員怡玎發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","張其祿","吳怡玎","沈發惠","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","費鴻泰"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00003","1130106_00004","1130106_00005","1130106_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"房屋稅條例增訂第六條之一條文；刪除第十二條條文；並修正第四條至第六條、第七條、第九\n條、第十一條、第十五條、第十八條、第二十四條及第二十五條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130106_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":15.066593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.93534375,"end":21.765968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.79534375,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.676593750000002,"end":38.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.31596875,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.737218750000004,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.97971875,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.26346875,"end":78.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.29659375,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.10471875,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.04846875000001,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.39096875000001,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.71471875,"end":141.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.89909375000002,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.94346875000002,"end":160.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.69784375,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.88909375,"end":179.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.85096875000002,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.46596875,"end":186.83721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.12,"end":19.239,"text":"院長各位我們委員我們國內的這個房價一路的這個飆漲這個房價所得比接近10倍那全國房貸負擔率也飆升至好41.19%創下歷史的這個紀錄"},{"start":22.827,"end":51.449,"text":"同時在2018到2022年間六都的房租每坪中位數的漲幅也遠比總計處的真實統計更為驚人許多的投資客大量湧入囤房、炒房將視之為投機商品已經是造成整個房市的混亂居住的不正義但是我們也知道因為房屋稅屬於地方稅稅率的高低端看各地方政府的自治條例"},{"start":52.352,"end":78.323,"text":"也導致全國稅率的不統一 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":199,"end_time":"2023-12-19T12:05:57+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T12:02:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":14,"blocks":[["邱委員顯智：（12時2分）院長、各位同仁。拖了好幾年，終於今天要進行房屋稅條例修正案的三讀，對於逼出空餘屋、打擊投資的囤房稅部分，我們看到行政院的版本卻只是一個玩弄稅率數字的半套修法。在這個版本中，對於本來最高稅率是3.6%的規定，只提高了1.2%到4.8%，其實將近有97%持有空屋數的人都是一到三戶的個人，在這個版本裡面，每戶只會被課徵多少稅？只會被多課徵0.2%。所以即便是採取全國的總歸戶，每個人最多如果算三戶的話，最多被多課徵了0.6%的稅收、0.6%的稅率。在這個情況之下，怎麼能夠對於持有更多空屋的人有所壓力？必須要到持有超過七戶空屋的時候才會被課徵不過4.8%的最高稅率，對於有意囤房的投資客不僅毫無禁阻的作用，更是讓囤房的操作空間完全不會消失。","更離譜的是，對於住屋起造人，財政部的稅率級距令人匪夷所思，除了是從建商拿到使用執照才開始起算，而且還要超過5年才對起造人課以最高的4.8%的稅率，等於是說如果從預售屋販售開始起算的話，是不是變相的讓建商可以安心的囤房至少7年──7年間漸漸地提高價格，並且慢慢地賣？","時代力量黨團的版本非常清楚，對於個人投資客不僅在稅率上能夠有效地打擊，逼出空餘屋，對於建商的提案，除了能夠鼓勵建商在足夠時間內以正常的、合理的方式販售外，也讓購屋者有更高的機會可以用合理的房價購買，有意並且有效的嚇阻故意囤房的建商，兼顧買賣雙方的利益。對於黨團協商中其他三黨都不同意時力黨團的版本，我們除了表達萬分的遺憾之外，也再次向國人表示，只有時力黨團才是唯一堅持初衷、保護國人居住權益的政黨。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員。","接下來請張委員其祿發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","張其祿","吳怡玎","沈發惠","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","費鴻泰"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00003","1130106_00004","1130106_00005","1130106_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"房屋稅條例增訂第六條之一條文；刪除第十二條條文；並修正第四條至第六條、第七條、第九\n條、第十一條、第十五條、第十八條、第二十四條及第二十五條條文─ 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":108,"end_time":"2023-12-19T13:39:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T13:38:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":79,"blocks":[["張委員其祿：（13時38分）院長、各位同仁。所得稅法第十七條針對租金支出扣除額規定為列舉扣除額12萬元，為財政部按照民國88年的租金行情訂定。然而時至今日，抵扣額度已經與目前整個租金行情相去甚遠，採取列舉扣除更是讓這個機制形同雞肋。同時現行實務上，民眾在報稅的時候，因為列舉扣除額與標準扣除額只能二擇一，所以除了來自房東的壓力跟不敢申報之外，更因為這個標準扣除額會隨著CPI調漲，標準扣除額長期高於列舉扣除額，按照內政部住宅狀況抽樣調查推估，108年臺灣約有100萬戶的租屋族，其同年稅賦有列舉申報租金支出抵扣的納稅戶數也只有大概2.7萬戶，僅占總體大概2.7%，簡單講這就是一個看得到、吃不到的狀況，所以我們這次也要感謝民間團體，像租客聯盟、OURs，還有崔媽媽基金會等長期的努力，跟各朝野黨派的支持，促成了本屆立法院最後一次院會能夠真正完成租金從現行的列舉扣除額改為特別扣除額，並且設置排富條款，額度也由現在的12萬提高到18萬，實質的算是有真正照顧到全臺的租屋族群，也算是真正落實整體居住正義的一個目標，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","報告院會，登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢。","報告院會，本次會議所列討論事項均已處理完畢，依據立法院議事規則第五十四條規定，本屆最後一次院會之議事錄於散會前宣讀，現在請林秘書長宣讀第8會期第12次會議議事錄。（全文見本期議事錄）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","吳玉琴","張其祿"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130107","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130107_00002","1130107_00003","1130107_00004","1130107_00005","1130107_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n所得稅法修正第十七條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130107_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.387218750000002,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.12034375,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.58846875,"end":28.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.76909375,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.62909375,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.91409375,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.111593750000004,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.633468750000006,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.06284375,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.52971875,"end":80.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.28846875,"end":84.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":87.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.08471875000001,"end":106.76534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.097,"end":32.45,"text":"好 院長那各位我們同仁我想所得稅法第17條針對租金支出扣除額規定為列舉扣除額12萬元是財政部按照民國88年的租金行情訂定然後時至今日這個抵扣額度已經與目前的整個租金行情相去甚遠那採取列舉扣除額更是讓這個機制形同雞肋"},{"start":33.663,"end":58.737,"text":"同時我們現行實務上民眾在報稅時候因為這個列舉扣除額與標準扣除額也只能二則一那所以除了來自房東的壓力跟不敢申報之外更因為這個標準扣除額會隨著這個CPI的這個調漲那標準扣除額長期高於列舉扣除額按照這個內政部住宅狀況抽樣調查推估108年台灣約有100萬戶的這個租屋族他同年的這個稅負的這個"},{"start":61.618,"end":67.922,"text":"有列舉申報租金支出抵扣的這個納稅戶數也只有大概2.7萬戶僅佔總體的大概2.7%所以簡單講這就是一個看得到吃不到的這個狀況所以我們這次也要感謝民間團體像租客聯盟還有奧爾斯還有"},{"start":80.57,"end":105.837,"text":"這個吹媽媽基金會等長期的努力跟各朝野黨派的支持促成了我們本屆立法院最後一次院會能夠真正完成租金從現行的列舉扣除額改為特別扣除額並且設置排付條款額度也由現在的12萬提到18萬實質的算是有真正照顧到我們全台的租屋族群也算是真正的落實了我們整體的居住正義的一個目標 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149071","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149071","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84e32147ac1b935753d63f0728b672d2277c986728e607a03229cc3a2a7c74431455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"13:35:38 - 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":132,"end_time":"2023-12-19T13:37:50+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T13:35:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":74,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（13時35分）謝謝院長。現行所得稅法針對房屋出租的部分可以列舉扣除12萬，但是現在大部分的租屋族，特別是雙薪家庭，會理性選擇扣除額的部分是標準扣除額，導致現在百萬的租屋族只有2.7萬戶申請租屋抵除，所以申報率只有2.7%。","去年我跟崔媽媽基金會、OURs及巢運一起召開為青年租屋減壓的記者會，租屋團體也提出了修法建議，希望能夠把房租的部分改列為特別扣除額，並增加扣除額的額度。所以特別在110年，住宅法也將公益出租及加入包租代管的房東每個月享有1.5萬的租金免稅額，這個部分看起來付出租金的房客卻沒辦法享有租金的扣除，所以考量雙方賦稅的衡平，本席建議將房租列為特別扣除額，並且將可扣除的額度提高到18萬，比照長照特別扣除額的排富機制，能夠做排富的機制，這是對租屋族絕對有感的政策，房租支出不是不報，現在時刻已到，所以也是讓我們居住正義的路上更往前邁向一步，也特別謝謝崔媽媽基金會、OURs、巢運與住盟持續對租屋族的發聲。","今天也是我們第10屆最後一次的院會，所得稅法也是本席在這八年來第73部的法案修法，我要特別謝謝立法院的所有同仁齊心協力，才能夠把各項法案修法通過，謝謝立法院讓我有這個機會在立法院為弱勢者服務，也謝謝所有的同事們，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請張委員其祿發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","吳玉琴","張其祿"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130107","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130107_00002","1130107_00003","1130107_00004","1130107_00005","1130107_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n所得稅法修正第十七條條文─ 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":126,"end_time":"2023-12-19T13:35:29+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T13:33:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":70,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（13時33分）謝謝主席與立法院的同仁。今天所得稅法修正案三讀通過，感謝各朝野黨團立委們的高度重視，本次修法一次提供民眾兩個重要的賦稅優惠，正確的訊息希望透過今天的發言讓民眾知道。首先是學前幼兒扣除額的部分，放寬門檻從5歲改為6歲以下的子女，提高學前幼兒特別扣除額從12萬增加到15萬，第二胎以上更調高到22萬5,000元，因應我國少子女化的現象達到鼓勵生育的政策，這次藉由修法提高幼兒學前扣除額並且擴大適用年齡，將有效減輕家長們在學前幼兒的家庭負擔。第二個當然就是租金支出的扣除額修正部分，把列舉扣除額改為特別扣除額，在扣除額的部分也增加到18萬，增加排富條款、有殼條款，確保租稅正義，本次修正將房屋的租金支出改列為特別扣除額，可以擴大房屋租金支出的適用對象，讓租屋族能享受租稅優惠。","過去，申報房屋扣除額的人數大約是2.7萬戶，比例不到所有租戶的3%，而且是逐年降低，這也表示多數租屋族並沒有想要把這個放進來，希望這一次的修正能夠讓在外地打工或者是在外地讀書的年輕人，藉由這一次的稅法修正，可以減輕多數年輕人的負擔，也減輕他們的租稅負擔。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請吳委員玉琴發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","吳玉琴","張其祿"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130107","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130107_00002","1130107_00003","1130107_00004","1130107_00005","1130107_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n所得稅法修正第十七條條文─ 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":156,"end_time":"2023-12-19T13:28:33+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T13:25:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":55,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（13時26分）院長、各位同仁。今天立法院三讀通過的所得稅法第十七條，其中關於提高幼兒學前特別扣除額，並將年齡上限推及至學齡前6歲的部分，此項修法是攸關減輕國人的養育經濟壓力以提供幼兒更好的生長環境，時力也提出相關的修法提案並與各黨團共同達成修法的目標。我們知道2012年定出的幼兒學前特別扣除額是12萬元，除了已經無法完全包括幼托的費用，最高年齡才5歲以下，也早已不符合小朋友就學的實際狀況，因此時力期望透過今天的修法，可以有機會紓解家庭生兒育女壓力來解決少子化的問題，也希望未來國家的主人翁可以有一個安心、放心的生活環境。","另外，剛剛三讀通過的所得稅法第十七條關於將房屋租金支出改列為特別扣除額，時代力量也提出修法提案，就是希望協助國人能有長期穩定的租屋條件還有能力，並進而促進租屋市場資訊更透明、更多量，所以我們看到目前主計總處的統計，最新的租金指數年增率已經到2.01%，已經連25個月上漲，所以我們現在的租金補貼不應該只是透過治標不治本的短期租金政策，因此時力與各黨團一起推動將房屋租金支出改列為特別扣除額來提高數額，就是為了透過長期穩定的稅務優惠制度，協助國人能有適宜的租屋環境與條件。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員。","接下來請邱委員顯智發言，邱委員顯智發言，邱委員顯智發言，邱委員顯智不在。","接下來我們就請曾委員銘宗發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":170,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","吳玉琴","張其祿"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130107","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130107_00002","1130107_00003","1130107_00004","1130107_00005","1130107_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n所得稅法修正第十七條條文─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130107_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.864718750000002,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.745968750000003,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.56784375,"end":21.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.59659375,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.17596875000001,"end":77.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.85846875,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.19909375,"end":101.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.83784375,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.96159375000002,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.68659375000001,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.65659375,"end":156.39471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.902,"end":26.968,"text":"院長、各位同仁今天立法院三讀通過的所得稅第17條其中關於提高幼兒學前特別扣除額並將年齡上限推及至學齡前6歲的部分此項修法是攸關減輕國人的養育經濟壓力"},{"start":30.109,"end":45.275,"text":"以提供幼兒更好的生長環境實例也提出相關的修法提案並與各黨團共同達成修法的目標我們知道2012年訂出的幼兒學錢特別扣除"},{"start":46.335,"end":47.216,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":67.187,"end":96.33,"text":"來解決少子化的問題也希望未來國家的主人翁可以有一個安心放心的生活環境另外剛剛三讀通過的所得稅第17條關於將房屋租金支出改列為特別扣除額時代力量也提出修法提案就是希望協助國人能有長期穩定的租屋條件還有能力"},{"start":97.314,"end":124.956,"text":"並進而促進租屋市場資訊更透明更多量所以我們看到目前主計總數的統計最新的租金指數年增率已經到2.01%已經連25個月上漲所以我們現在的租金補貼不應該只是透過治標不治本的短期租金政策因此實力與各黨團"},{"start":125.857,"end":135.98,"text":"一起推動將房屋租金支出改列為特別扣除額來提高數額就是為了透過長期好 謝謝陳委員接下來請邱委員顯示發言邱委員顯示發言"},{"start":154.741,"end":156.213,"text":"好 邱委員請自發言"}]}},{"id":"149066","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149066","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84e231411029132c74a63f0728b672d2277c986728e607a032281d98ccfcd6d1fbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"費鴻泰","委員發言時間":"13:05:48 - 13:08:08","影片長度":"00:02:20","會議時間":"2023-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 \n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":140,"end_time":"2023-12-19T13:08:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T13:05:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["費委員鴻泰：（13時5分）主席游院長、各位委員。剛才我們通過了房屋稅條例部分條文修正草案，但是我們知道臺灣還是有很多需要努力的，舉例來講，我們年輕人的所得太低，我們的貧富懸殊越來越大，要落實真正的居住正義還有好大的一段路要走，這都是值得立法院要繼續努力的地方。待會兒我們會通過嬰幼兒特別扣除額的相關規定，我們知道，臺灣的出生率在全世界是排最後一名，去年出生的嬰幼兒只有十三萬多，今年可能會比去年還要少，對我們國家而言，這是一個真正的憲政危機、國安危機，我們要鼓勵大家多生小孩。鼓勵大家多生小孩有很多方向，譬如落實零到六歲國家養，我們要把嬰兒特別扣除額由五歲延長到六歲，我們要把特別扣除額從12萬調高到15萬，我們要把排富條款拿掉，鼓勵大家生小孩，增加日後的勞動力以及繳稅的人口，我們要鼓勵大家生第二胎，希望第二胎的扣除額可以從15萬調高到22.5萬，當然這都是好事，可是我們還需要繼續提出更大的誘因，讓大家多生小孩。感謝各位的支持，希望大家共同繼續努力。"],["主席：謝謝費委員。","報告院會，登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢。","蔡委員易餘聲明對本日表決與民進黨黨團意見一致，列入公報紀錄。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","張其祿","吳怡玎","沈發惠","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","費鴻泰"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00003","1130106_00004","1130106_00005","1130106_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"房屋稅條例增訂第六條之一條文；刪除第十二條條文；並修正第四條至第六條、第七條、第九\n條、第十一條、第十五條、第十八條、第二十四條及第二十五條條文─ 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謝謝林委員接下來請費委員宏泰發言"}]}},{"id":"149064","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149064","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84e33040dc27947452563f0728b672d2277c986728e607a03229f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"13:00:02 - 13:03:11","影片長度":"00:03:09","會議時間":"2023-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":166,"end_time":"2023-12-19T12:12:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T12:09:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":28,"blocks":[["吳委員怡玎：（12時9分）今天在這裡我們要修訂的是房屋稅，其實也就是所謂的囤房稅。依照內政部不動產資訊平臺的資料顯示，我們看到房價指數在今年已經創下了歷史的新高，若從扁政府、馬政府、蔡政府分別來看的話，扁政府8年我們的房價增加了23%，馬政府8年我們的房價增加了14%，在蔡政府七年多期間，我們的房價已經增加了高達95%，非常非常的可觀。房屋稅其實就是俗稱的囤房稅，民間團體一直認為囤房稅是達成居住正義很重要的一環，其實我們這一屆從第一年第一個會期開始，在野黨就不斷的提出我們必須修訂房屋稅，但是不論財政部也好，內政部也好，給了千百萬個理由，表示沒有辦法達成，但是今年奇蹟出現了，因為要選舉，要改選總統了，一瞬間在最後一個會期，我們的財政部竟然連版本都拿出來了，也拿到了立法院來，很開心財政部終於可以邁出這一步。但是我們的最高稅率只從3.6%提高到4.8%，我舉一個例子來說，以一個市價2,000萬左右的房子，1年只增加了大概4,000塊左右的房屋稅，這樣子絕對是沒有辦法造成有效的棍子。其實聽起來4.8%的稅率好像相當高了，但是重點是在於稅基過低，我們的房屋稅的稅基其實是公告現值，而公告現值離市價實在是差距太遠了。在法案審查的過程，我們不斷地詢問財政部到底怎麼解決這個問題，財政部也是表示他們會持續督促，但是並沒有辦法提出一個具體的方案來，所以也就是說財政部也就糊弄過去了。我們很開心，這次修法是實現居住正義跨出了一步，但是很遺憾的是這一步真的是太小一步了。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請沈委員發惠發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","邱顯智","張其祿","吳怡玎","沈發惠","陳椒華","曾銘宗","邱臣遠","林楚茵","費鴻泰"],"page_start":107,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00003","1130106_00004","1130106_00005","1130106_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"房屋稅條例增訂第六條之一條文；刪除第十二條條文；並修正第四條至第六條、第七條、第九\n條、第十一條、第十五條、第十八條、第二十四條及第二十五條條文─ 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謝謝吳委員接下來請沈委員發會花言"}]}},{"id":"149059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84e6302a9bed8e231c063f0728b672d2277c986728e607a03221052946088e6d4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"11:45:17 - 11:47:29","影片長度":"00:02:12","會議時間":"2023-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 \n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":132,"end_time":"2023-12-19T11:47:29+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T11:45:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":240,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（11時45分）主席、游院長、各位立委同仁、各位媒體朋友。113年度中央政府總預算今天通過了，歲出編列了2兆8,817億8,209萬5,000元，這是蔡英文總統任期最後一年的預算，但也達到歷史的新高點。本席要求政府要撙節支出，以符合經濟局勢及支出的必要性，避免債留子孫。","蔡英文總統上任7年以來，把未來幾年可以舉債的額度都用掉，無論2024年誰當選總統，面對的都是收支差短的財政狀況，連審計部也特別提出政府特別預算狂舉債，中央要檢討施政支出的必要性，還說請行政院督促權責機關妥善運用政府的預算資源，確保財政永續發展；本席認為行政院有必要檢討改進。而在總預算的歲出個案裡面，國防預算大幅增加的支出，即將追上經濟發展的支出，本席認為這是另外一個警訊，可能危及臺灣的經濟發展，值得特別關注。","另外，財政收支劃分法讓中央掌握地方財源分配權，導致地方政府必須仰中央鼻息的失衡現象，以至於中央請客、地方買單的爭議層出不窮，當然希望下一屆能夠順利的修正。","最後，今天也是本屆最後一次的會議，今天即將結束，德維也期盼下一屆的立法院要從老百姓的角度來思考人民真正的需求。德維回首來時路，謝謝每一位好朋友的支持與鼓勵，期盼大家為中華民國、為臺灣更美好的明天而努力。"],["主席：報告院會，登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢。","現在處理朝野黨團協商結論，請議事人員宣讀。","立法院黨團協商結論","時間：112年12月14日（星期四）下午2時30分","地點：紅樓302會議室","決定事項：","一、自113年1月1日起本院每一立法委員及各黨團公費助理之助理費增加4%，每月各為45萬8,990元及57萬3,735元；另適用勞動基準法所需加班費、不休假加班費等相關經費增加4%，每月各為9萬1,800元及11萬4,750元。","主 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（前接第五冊）","agenda_id":"1130106_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.95846875,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.41596875,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.680343750000002,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.62034375,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.60659375,"end":65.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.59034375,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.17159375,"end":99.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.04909375000001,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.12096875,"end":126.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.23471875000001,"end":128.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.32721875000001,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.00221875,"end":131.62221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":28.258,"text":"媒體朋友我想113年度中央政府總預算今天通過稅初編列的兩兆八千八百一十七億八千兩百零九萬五千元這是蔡英文總統任期的最後一年的預算但也達到歷史的新高點本席要求政府要尊潔支出以符合經濟局勢及支出的必要性避免再留子孫"},{"start":29.744,"end":51.775,"text":"蔡英文總統上任7年以來﹐把未來幾年可以舉債的額度都用掉﹐無論2024年誰當選總統﹐面對的都是收支差短的財政狀況﹐連省紀部也特別提出政府特別預算狂舉債﹐中央要檢討施政支出的必要性﹐"},{"start":53.356,"end":80.655,"text":"還說請行政院督促全責機關妥善運用政府的預算資源確保財政永續發展本席認為行政院有必要檢討改進而在總預算的稅出個案裡面國防預算大幅增加的支出即將追上經濟發展的支出本席認為這是另外一個警訊可能危及台灣的經濟發展值得特別關注"},{"start":81.255,"end":99.494,"text":"另外財政收支化分法讓中央掌握地方財源分配權導致地方政府必須養中央鼻息的失衡現象以至於中央請客地方買單的爭議層出不窮當然希望下一屆能夠順利的修正最後"},{"start":100.194,"end":100.534,"text":"報告委員會現在處理"},{"start":129.38,"end":131.437,"text":"報告各位 登記花園的委員都已經"}]}},{"id":"149058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84ef61606aef3f6e24863f0728b672d2277c986728e607a0322bb7f1b8e8d3d49e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"11:42:52 - 11:45:07","影片長度":"00:02:15","會議時間":"2023-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":152,"end_time":"2023-12-19T11:38:04+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T11:35:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時35分）院長、本院委員。我們中央政府總預算113年度原列歲入總額為2兆7,091億8,612萬8,000元，審議的結果增列了159億9,712萬6,000元，所以113年度總預算歲入總額改列為2兆7,251億8,325萬4,000元。而歲出部分原列歲出總額為2兆8,817億8,209萬5,000元，審議的結果總共減列了299億2,622萬1,000元，歲出總額暫改列為2兆8,518億5,587萬4,000元，在立法院三讀後由行政院主計總處調整。","但是國際貨幣基金在今年10月預估全球經濟成長是3%，而2024年預計是2.9%，臺灣今年的經濟成長率只有0.8%，截至112年6月底行政院的投資臺灣三大方案，號稱累計審核通過的1,372家廠商總計投資金額是2.07兆元，創造14.6萬個就業機會，但是其實有逾三成的廠商申請展延投資的期程或者是變更投資計畫。所以在面對國際的經濟情勢不佳，行政院不應該掉以輕心，應該要採績效跟成果的導向，重視成果效益及預期目標、績效評估的指標等設定，加強政府政策對經濟成長及社會影響效益的評估，希望明年度大家可以為臺灣的經濟繼續持續努力。謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員。接下來請賴委員士葆發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":107,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林楚茵","邱顯智","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","高嘉瑜","吳欣盈","李德維"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00002","1130106_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案─ 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謝謝謝委員 接下來請賴委員事保發言"}]}},{"id":"149054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84e85b1dec36d3d196b63f0728b672d2277c986728e607a03222acfd9f0a57c55585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"11:33:07 - 11:35:22","影片長度":"00:02:15","會議時間":"2023-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":202,"end_time":"2023-12-19T09:54:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T09:51:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時51分）謝謝主席。首先感謝朝野黨團及委員共同努力，歷經二個多月各委員會的審查及黨團協商，今天總預算終於可以順利進行二、三讀。","113年度中央政府總預算歲入是2兆7,092億元，歲出是2兆8,818億元，都創下歷史新高，而依法編列的還債金額也來到1,150億元，也創下23年的最高，高於過去馬政府執政的時期。近年來國內經濟穩健成長，帶動稅收增加，落實各項政府支出的表現，讓國家的財政得以持續改善，進而支應更多提升國家競爭力的計畫，來完備我們的社會安全系統，健全社會及教育發展，強化國防安全等等的需求。","113年度的總預算當中，有關於強化幼兒照顧，改善公托和準公托設施等少子女化的政策，我們就編列了1,201億元，而長照服務的預算也來到了876億元，大幅增加，也是歷年最高。雖然有人不斷地批評政府大撒幣，質疑政府的財政，但是蔡政府上台至今，105年到112年度已經還債7,960億元，而且從107年到112年度因為稅課收入執行優於預期，也就是優於我們原本編列的預算，原定編列還債跟舉債的預算總計是6,556億元，過去我們的編列當中，我們沒有再進行舉債。這幾年當中，中央政府呈現增加還本、減少舉債，中央政府長期債務從105年蔡政府上任的5.4兆，截至今年的11月30號實際數字是5.8兆元，僅約略增加了4,200億元，還債比率由105年底的33%下降到今年的27.2%，這都是政府努力增加政府的經濟、增加稅收，來增加還債能量的一個表現。在健全的財政情況底下，運用財政穩定讓經濟成長，增加政府的稅收，提升財政的能量，成為一個良性的循環。","這幾年我們也看到幾個重要的國際信用評等，對於臺灣的評等也都是持正向或者是調升的一個態度，肯定我們國家財政的優異表現，洛桑管理學院更把2023年世界競爭力我國的排名前進了4位，來到第6位，這都是反映政府持續減少舉債跟增加還本的政府績效。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","報告院會，各黨團推派委員都已經發言完畢。","現在處理內政委員會保留部分。","報告院會，國民黨黨團撤回第42案，不予處理。","現在請宣讀第21案。","21、"]],"agenda":{"page_end":107,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林楚茵","邱顯智","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","高嘉瑜","吳欣盈","李德維"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00002","1130106_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案─ 完成三讀─ 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- 09:51:18","影片長度":"00:03:13","會議時間":"2023-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 \n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":193,"end_time":"2023-12-19T09:51:18+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T09:48:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":21,"blocks":[["曾委員銘宗：（9時48分）院長、各位同仁。現在立法院正在審議113年度中央政府總預算，我有三點說明，第一點，明年度總預算歲出編列2兆8,817億，經審議後刪減299億，只有占1%，顯示朝野對這個預算都非常支持。我要在這裡慎重的跟大家報告，明年國民黨重返執政一定會將總預算的每一塊錢都花在刀口上，為全民謀福利，促進國家安全、經濟發展、社會穩定，我代表國民黨再做出保證，這是第一點。","第二點，有關預算案，我們也提出主決議，尤其是針對NCC主委陳耀祥任內撤銷中天電視臺，他的行政處分已經經過行政法院連續11次撤銷，NCC的公信力蕩然無存！所以陳耀祥應該下台，不合適再擔任主委的職務。另外，我們也全數刪除他的特別費47萬元。","此外，我要跟各位報告，蔡政府執政即將結束，蔡政府這段期間到底有沒有債留子孫、債留下一任政府？我在這裡跟各位報告總帳，蔡政府8年內提出13項特別預算，年年都提出特別預算，金額高達2兆4,966億，創歷史新高，蔡政府把特別預算常態化，常態化，財政敗壞！另外還有包括3個特別預算，包括新式戰機、海空戰力提升，還有前瞻基礎建設第4期，他的3個特別預算會到113、114、115才執行，這部分高達6,795億，強迫下一任政府接受他提出來的預算。","所以簡單講，依照財政部資料顯示，112年到10月底中央政府債務餘額是6兆5,676億，加上3個特別預算6,795億，合計高達2兆2,470億，蔡政府債留子孫，蔡政府債留子孫、債留下一任政府。"],["主席：謝謝曾委員。接下來請林委員楚茵發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":107,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林楚茵","邱顯智","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","高嘉瑜","吳欣盈","李德維"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00002","1130106_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案─ 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謝謝曾委員接下來請林委員處應發言"}]}},{"id":"149049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6bcf1d98c445b84e016bc7b15f6d61be63f0728b672d2277c986728e607a0322b19c3c3926b89c555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"09:45:09 - 09:48:00","影片長度":"00:02:51","會議時間":"2023-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 \n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-19","duration":171,"end_time":"2023-12-19T09:48:00+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-19T09:45:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":15,"blocks":[["邱委員臣遠：（9時45分）游院長、各位委員、全體國人同胞大家好！台灣民眾黨團針對113年度中央政府總預算，秉持一如既往堅守財政紀律的原則，善盡國會對行政機關理性監督之責。本黨團113年度中央政府總預算案的提案重點，包含民怨已深的打詐不力、淪為笑柄的資安即國安，以及攸關國人生命安全的交通改革、執政黨被詬病的大內宣，以及政治力介入媒體的問題、缺乏精準預估造成的稅收超徵，以及本黨團長期倡議的財政紀律、2050淨零碳排、氣候變遷、勞工權益及退休保障、居住正義、數位經濟以及產業發展等等議題，都是我們提案的重點。","在預算的審查過程中，本黨團浮現對國家的憂心，仍有許多待解決的危機與人民需要被照顧的地方，例如少子女化以及超高齡化造成的國安危機、中高齡就業、高房價高租金、低薪、通膨、高房價造成青年世代的相對剝奪感，這些都是民怨已深的社會問題，需要政府繼續努力。","鑑於臺海情勢升溫，本黨團對於國防預算也秉持理性、務實、科學的監督方向，確保相關預算的編列能夠有效提升我國的戰力，保護國人的安全，落實全民國防的政策目標。","接下來要進行的保留案，我們之所以會堅持到院會進行表決，是因為相關的提案可能會傷害到臺灣的民主以及行政中立、媒體獨立以及淨零排放目標達成的相關公正轉型議題，以及造成民眾恐慌的個資安全，這都是我們堅持到表決的提案重點。","過去四年台灣民眾黨立法委員以及我們的立院黨團作為最負責任的在野黨，將人民關注的議題與訴求，透過預算提案、法案提案的形式監督執政黨，替納稅人把關，並且在各黨忙於選務的同時，我們仍然堅守職責到最後一刻，發揮關鍵少數的力量。明天將是本屆最後一個會期的結束以及提前休會，也期盼各黨能夠善盡監督的職責，共同完成明年度的總預算審查。謝謝大家！"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。接下來請曾委員銘宗發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":107,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳椒華","邱臣遠","曾銘宗","林楚茵","邱顯智","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","高嘉瑜","吳欣盈","李德維"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2023-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1130106","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130106_00002","1130106_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"討論事項\n中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案─ 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游錫坤 蔡啟昌 寫章代表 柯建銘 劉世芳 莊瑞雄 洪勝翰 曾明中 謝一鳳 李德維 邱承遠 張其祿 賴香林 邱顯智 陳佳華 黃婉玉宣讀完畢請問委員會對以上寫章結論有沒有異議沒有異議那透過編案後續及依照寫章結論處理請先讀決定事項"},{"start":2132.265,"end":2155.091,"text":"決定事項一、113年度中央政府總預算案含機密部分審查總報告所列未送院會處理項目除卻有致案男性者在協商依協商結論通過外其餘軍教各委員會審查會議決議通過至送院會處理項目協商有結論者依協商結論通過協商未獲結論者交付表決並依表決結果通過"},{"start":2156.031,"end":2179.085,"text":"令黨團協商師凍結內容經併委員會凍結案處理依協商結論通過者均不在於宣讀本中一一具名二、113年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算其涉及附屬單位預算營業及分業部分均暫照列自附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整三、113年度中央政府總預算案最初甚至別部分"},{"start":2179.785,"end":2202.518,"text":"隨同最初機關別審議結果予以調整四、各委員會審查結果和機密部分審商結論均應依通案決議辦理不再逐一與各機關審商結果續名各機關卻應切實依通案決議核實分別刪減為各委員會審查刪減數如予通案決議刪減比例以各委員會審查刪減數為準為達通案決議刪減比例則增加檢列不足之數宣讀完畢"},{"start":2212.032,"end":2236.944,"text":"決定事項部分 照協商結論通過 請宣讀通案刪減事項113年度總預算案 針對各機關所屬通案刪減用途 別項目決議如下一 檢列大陸地區旅費30%二 檢列國外旅費及出國教育訓練費 不含現行法律 明文規定支出5%三 檢列委搬費 不含現行法律 明文規定支出5%"},{"start":2238.564,"end":2240.906,"text":"4.檢列房屋建築養護費、車輛及辦公器具養護費﹐設施及機械設備養護費5%5."},{"start":2240.906,"end":2242.667,"text":"檢列軍事裝備及設施3%6."},{"start":2242.667,"end":2245.829,"text":"檢列一般事務費﹐不含現行、法律、明文規定支出3%7."},{"start":2245.829,"end":2247.43,"text":"檢列媒體政策及業務捐導費﹐不含農業部防檢數"},{"start":2257.757,"end":2267.871,"text":"衛福部籍管署及1000萬元項籍管25%幫檢列設備及投資不含現行法律明文規定支出資產作價投資及增資臺電公司3.89%檢列對國內團體之捐助"},{"start":2273.658,"end":2280.221,"text":"捐助及政府機關監制補助不含現行法律、明文規定支出5%10."},{"start":2280.221,"end":2288.384,"text":"簡略對地方政府支補助不含現行法律、明文規定支出及一般性補助款4%11."},{"start":2288.384,"end":2293.467,"text":"前述1至6項允許在業務非科目範圍內調整12."},{"start":2293.467,"end":2298.509,"text":"前述9至10項允許在獎補助非科目範圍內調整13."},{"start":2298.509,"end":2300.67,"text":"若有特殊困難無法依雙開原則調整者"},{"start":2301.79,"end":2315.844,"text":"可提出其他可刪減項目經主席總署審核同意後予以代替補足14.如總刪減數未達299億元扣除增資臺電公司及波姆勞保基金後約1.12%另予補足"},{"start":2319.428,"end":2343.144,"text":"一、113年度中央政府總預算案針對各機關及所屬統刪項目如下一、大陸地區旅費統刪百分之三十其中中央研究院等該以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整二、國外旅費及出國教育訓練費除現行法律明文規定支出不刪外其餘統刪百分之五其中總統府等該以其他項目刪減替代"},{"start":2343.684,"end":2368.322,"text":"科目自行調整三、違犯費除現行法律明文規定支出不涉外其他統申5%其中總統府等改以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整四、房屋建築養護費設量及辦公器具養護費設施及機械設備養護費統申5%其中主計總署等改以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整"},{"start":2369.262,"end":2382.937,"text":"五、軍事裝備及設施捅刪3%其中國防部所屬海巡署及所屬改以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整六、一般事務費除現行法律明文規定支出不刪外其餘捅刪3%其中總統福德"},{"start":2386.64,"end":2412.919,"text":"改以其他項目升減替代科目自行調整及媒體政策及業務宣導費除農業部動植物防疫檢疫署及所屬衛生福利部疾病管制署及1000萬元以下機關不刪外其餘統刪25%8 設備及投資除現行法律名為規定支出資產住家投資及增資臺灣電力股份有限公司不刪外其餘統刪3.8%其中中央選舉委員會及所屬等"},{"start":2413.439,"end":2442.387,"text":"改以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整9.對國內團體之捐助及政府機關間之補助除現行法律明文規定支出不刪外其餘統刪5%其中總統府等改以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整10.對地方政府之補助除現行法律明文規定支出及一般性補助款不刪外其餘統刪4%其中內政部等改以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整宣讀完畢"},{"start":2444.195,"end":2450.995,"text":"通案三件事項照協商結論通過請先讀通案部分"},{"start":2454.235,"end":2476.894,"text":"新增決議21項一、為解決政府常態性超徵稅收之情形﹐源於113年度中央政府總預算﹐稅可收入時徵數高於預算數時﹐優先減少舉債﹐增加還本貨﹐累計制﹐隨其剩餘﹐及適當支持勞工保險基金﹐二、數位發展部提出四年期﹐行政部門關鍵民生系統經濟雲端備份及回復計畫﹐"},{"start":2478.135,"end":2506.485,"text":"用以推動政府資料加密分支及跨境備援．請數位發展部鄉立法院交通委員會．提出強烈各計劃之名稱．各年度期程及經費等細項．署名之專案報告三、要求財政部邀集其他相關單位．召開會議檢討．並成立稅收估測專案小組．縮短稅收估測時間落差．進一步瞭解消費與營業稅稅機制關聯性．並於三個月內鄉立法院提出稅收估測經濟專案報告"},{"start":2508.125,"end":2522.858,"text":"四、衛冕、債留子孫、債留下任政府﹐原19行政院政及行政院主席總署﹐財政部及其他相關單位﹐具有未來若在前年度稅收大幅超徵數千億元之情況下﹐將額外提撥法定5%至6%﹐"},{"start":2525.22,"end":2553.232,"text":"之外的多少比例來用於債務款本及複習提出具體方案並與三個委員內向立法院提出書面報告五 為進一步瞭解政府對於112年稅收超徵大約3700億元的具體規劃與要求行政院主席總署及財政部說明將如何運用超徵至3700億元減少舉債數額或增加還債數額並與三個委員內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":2555.072,"end":2576.178,"text":"6.為避免各行政機關有提前濫行消耗預算之急事發生﹐使新任政府上任後可面臨經負不敷使用施政捉襟見肘之餘﹐於113年度總預算三讀通過後﹐更行政機關依依循各機關應確實依分配預算及計劃進度嚴格執行等注意事項執行預算"},{"start":2579.27,"end":2599.885,"text":"7.要求未來行政院主席總署應依照預算法規定嚴格核定各項預算經費﹐避免行政部門利用巧門編列預算﹐國防部為截入113年度總預算的新增投資建案動資利益預備制印時應審慎嚴謹﹐並向立法院外交及國防委員會專案報告同意後實得動之"},{"start":2600.826,"end":2619.533,"text":"八、要求行政院強化相關管控機制﹐評估將計畫經費與其身變動情形﹐納為計畫管考會議參據﹐以貼身執行成效﹐並確立公共建設計畫營運評估作業之揭露機制﹐將有關案件管理結果公開上網﹐以落實政府資訊公開透明原則"},{"start":2621.074,"end":2643.209,"text":"9、要求各部會依規定加強辦理跨區域計劃性補助業務﹐並落實蒐集前置資料、妥喻規劃補助計劃﹐且需辦理公平手和機制、切實依成本效益分析結果和給經費﹐及依中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法第15條規定等﹐切實管考督導、避利相關公帑支出效益10"},{"start":2645.51,"end":2664.691,"text":"要求自114年度起中央政府各機關公益預算法第34條規定函送重大水準計劃之選擇方案及替代方案之成本效益分析報告及相關產源籌措與與資金運用說明於立法院時﹐以並將相關計劃書和訂本聲網公佈以建立立法院預算審查之專業性及權威性"},{"start":2666.292,"end":2685.594,"text":"11.為不使中央政府讓軍公教委員加薪的美意﹐反倒造成地方政府財政負擔﹐原要求省政府依據各地方政府之財政狀況綜合考量後﹐分別給予不同程度或比例的補助款﹐以促成各地方政府財政之健全穩定以及均衡發展﹐並於三個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":2686.915,"end":2714.751,"text":"12、原要求諸衛發展部等與電信業者合作﹐探討研究詐騙常使用的工具﹐積極盤點資源加重法治刑責﹐並檢討分析如何監控防堵、通訊網路等問題﹐以有效權力打擊詐騙保護人民財產安全﹐與3個院內相立法院相關委員會提出書面報告13、要求審審員嚴禮發布會意見﹐結合過剩事務書及求援人數之登錄資料﹐監制發布會順時再利用方案"},{"start":2715.211,"end":2725.255,"text":"同時﹐評估商家主動捐贈食物可扣抵加值稅之可能性﹐以達食物互助體系在地化﹐擴大社會安全照護之願景14."},{"start":2725.255,"end":2737.581,"text":"未選企業在獲利豐碩之餘﹐能提升員工薪資水準﹐願要求行政邀請相關單位研議修法﹐來增加上市常委公司員工與公司有營利時的薪資待遇之可行性"},{"start":2738.261,"end":2761.783,"text":"並要求金融監督管理委員會具時度倒戈上市商業公司依據《證券交易法》第14條之規定揭露公司薪資報酬政策等相關資訊於3個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告15要求行政院要求金融監督管理委員會中央銀行針對是否禁止業者販賣穩定幣進行租商會營業並於3個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告16"},{"start":2764.125,"end":2778.475,"text":"要求協政院責成金融監督管理委員會才宣布多島各金融機構確實依相關規定設置慈安場並避免其因公司內部職務調整而造成短期內置頻繁人事異動等上述問題僅於三個月內下"},{"start":2779.755,"end":2782.856,"text":"立法院財政委員會提出書面報告17."},{"start":2782.856,"end":2800.8,"text":"要求協議院通令各機關及其所屬與所主委的附屬單位營業及分業及經財政法人、行政法人及一份公務持股逾20%之轉投資事業即在轉投資事業即刻暫緩重設新設公司作業並於2個月內將就相關重設計畫"},{"start":2802.82,"end":2808.287,"text":"事由：評估等向立法院相關委員會提出書面報告後﹐時得執行18."},{"start":2808.287,"end":2817.378,"text":"要求原住民組委員會進行檢討﹐並於三個月內針對文化健康政業務執行﹐請向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告19."},{"start":2819.821,"end":2844.42,"text":"原要求各部會應恪守本頁遵循行政中立原則依法行政避免政府機關官方賬號與選舉期間淪為特定政黨競選之工具公私不分二十要求司法院及行政院未來若有需兩院會前之法案送立法院審議前以充分進行溝通協調出兩院意見與支持版本後再行函檢立法院審議必立法案審查順利進行"},{"start":2846.361,"end":2867.589,"text":"21.為求全民食品安全健康嚴加把關,原要求行政院及其相關單位﹐要求單一資造業者應標示為殺菌營蛋﹐強制供售為生食用途使用者﹐皆需要採購殺菌營蛋﹐以確保消費者使用者安全宣讀完畢通案部分,照協商結論通過﹐請先讀內政委員會"},{"start":2873.192,"end":2894.717,"text":"內政委員會一、稅入部分第三款規費收入第54項內政部改例為5871萬5千元第四款財產收入第77項國土管理署及所屬改例為4497萬3千元二、稅收部分第二款行政院主管第一項行政院改例為14億3654萬9千元本項提案9案保留送優惠處理保留案號2130384248495152本項新增決議35項"},{"start":2900.859,"end":2915.411,"text":"第8項原住民組委員會本項新增決議17項第10項客家委員會及所屬本項新增決議19項第11項中央選舉委員會及所屬本項提案二案保留送運會處理保留案號9093本項新增決議6項"},{"start":2917.052,"end":2925.777,"text":"第15項大陸委員會本項新增權益9項第17項不當黨產處理委員會本項提案二案保留送易會處理保留案號119120第7款內政部主管定項內政部改定為125億4715萬2000元本項提案一案保留送易會處理保留案號173本項新增權益50項"},{"start":2939.81,"end":2954.537,"text":"第二項國土管理署級所屬本項新增決議35項第三項警政署級所屬本項新增決議32項第四項中央警察大學本項新增決議1項第五項消防署級所屬本項新增決議12項"},{"start":2956.798,"end":2972.166,"text":"第6項國家公園署及所屬本項新增決議7項第7項移民署本項新增決議6項第8項建築研究所本項新增決議2項第24款海洋委員會主管第1項海洋委員會本項新增決議9項"},{"start":2975.031,"end":2999.846,"text":"第二項海巡署及所屬本項新增決議九項第三項海洋保育署本項新增決議二項第四項國家海洋研究院本項新增決議一項其餘軍造內政委員會審查結果通過宣讀完畢內政委員會審查部分除保留部分外區域軍造協商結論通過請宣讀外交及國防委員會"},{"start":3001.107,"end":3014.602,"text":"外交及國防委員會一稅入部分第二款發款及賠償收入第73項國防部所屬改定為5億5963萬4千元二稅出部分第8款外交部主管部含金利部分第一項外交部新增權益30項"},{"start":3017.253,"end":3046.345,"text":"第二項聯社事務局新增決議一項第九款國防部主管不含機密部分第一項國防部提案已按保留送運會處理保留案號76新增決議13項第二項國防部所屬不含第10目國防支出機密計畫及第12目科學支出機密計畫除第7目肺炎特種基金證照列4所屬肺炎特種基金選疫確定後暫行調整外改例為3985億2324萬元提案已按保留送運會處理保留案號90"},{"start":3047.366,"end":3047.627,"text":"新增決議32項"},{"start":3051.328,"end":3073.599,"text":"第21款前務委員會主管不函機密部分第一項前務委員會改令為17億3484萬1千元提案一案保留送運會主理保留暗號157新增決議11項第25款國軍退出官兵輔導委員會主管第一項國軍退出官兵輔導委員會改令為1290億7206萬4千元新增決議4項其餘軍戰外交及國防委員會審查結果通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":3082.679,"end":3089.173,"text":"外交及國防委員會審查部分除保留部分外區域經照協商結論通過請先讀經濟委員會"},{"start":3091.623,"end":3115.962,"text":"經濟委員會一稅入部分第二款發款及賠償收入第13項國際貿易署改令為1450萬6千元二稅出部分第二款行政院主管第6項國家發展委員會除地石木分野特種基金站照列自所屬分野的特種基金水銀確定暫行調整外改令為26億1354萬6千元第一案已按保留送優惠處理保留案號五新增決議25項"},{"start":3118.224,"end":3135.231,"text":"第13項公平交易委員會 新增決議6項第13款經濟部主管 第1項經濟部 新增決議64項第2項產業發展署 逐第5分一頁特種基金佔照列自所屬分一頁特種基金誰確定債刑調整外 改列為124億4448萬7千元 新增決議6項"},{"start":3139.913,"end":3145.441,"text":"第3項國際貿易署新增決議7項第4項標準經驗局級所署新增決議9項第5項智慧財產局新增決議4項第6項水利署級所署新增決議24項"},{"start":3155.939,"end":3173.545,"text":"第7項商業發展署新增權益5項第8項中小及新創企業署新增權益3項第9項產業園區管理局及所署新增權益5項第10項地質調查及荒野管理中心新增權益2項第11項能源署新增權益6項"},{"start":3175.7,"end":3183.772,"text":"第16款 農業部主管 第一項 農業部改令為1,125億4,030萬3千元提案四案保留送運會處理保留案號253-255-304-332-1新增決議73項"},{"start":3190.68,"end":3201.986,"text":"第2項林業及自然保育署及所屬改令為85億2974萬7千元新增決議7項第3項農村發展及稅務保持署及所屬新增決議3項第20項漁業署及所屬新增決議1項第21項動植物防疫檢疫署及所屬新增決議1項第23項農糧署及所屬新增決議4項"},{"start":3215.192,"end":3229.089,"text":"第24項農田水利署新增權益5項其餘均照經濟委員會審查結果通過宣讀完畢經濟委員會審查部分除保留部分外其餘均照協商結論通過請先讀財政委員會"},{"start":3231.372,"end":3246.878,"text":"財政委員會二歲初部分第二款行政院主管第二項主計總署新增決議八項第六款監察院主管第二項審計部新增決議二項第十款財政部主管第一項財政部改列為119億6306萬1千元新增決議19項第二項國庫署新增決議五項第三項賦稅署改列為178億9798萬9千元新增決議七項"},{"start":3258.583,"end":3269.509,"text":"第4項 台北國稅局新增決議1項第5項 高雄國稅局新增決議2項第6項 北區國稅局及所屬新增決議1項第7項 中區國稅局及所屬新增決議1項第8項 南區國稅局及所屬新增決議1項"},{"start":3273.792,"end":3292.723,"text":"第9項公務書籍所屬新增權益5項第10項國有財產書籍所屬改列為32億0963萬元新增權益3項第11項財政資訊中心新增權益4項第23款金融監督管理委員會主管第1項金融監督管理委員會改列為2億4807萬9千元新增權益21項"},{"start":3298.325,"end":3300.446,"text":"第二項銀行舉改令為3億4,433萬1千元原審查報告所列決議第3、4、5、6、7、8項合幣修正為3新增決議6項"},{"start":3313.857,"end":3343.107,"text":"第三項 證券期貨局改例為3億7943萬6千元新增決議三項第四項 保險局新增決議二項第五項 檢察局改例為4億9455萬3千元新增決議二項三 融資產源調度部分新增決議二項其餘均照財政委員會審查結果通過宣讀完畢財政委員會審查部分均照學商結論通過請先讀教育及文化委員會"},{"start":3344.045,"end":3366.737,"text":"教育及文化委員會一稅入部分第二款8款即賠償收入﹐第85項教育部改例為2310萬元﹐第7款其他收入第10項國民及學前教育署﹐改例為5億8101萬元﹐二稅出部分第一款總統府主管﹐第5項中央研究院本項新增權益一項﹐第二款行政院主管﹐第5項國立物工博物院﹐改例為26億631萬9千元﹐本項新增權益6項"},{"start":3371.579,"end":3387.36,"text":"第12項可能安全委員會及所屬本項新增決議7項第11款交易部主管第一項交易部除第2幕高端交易第三節鼓勵大學校院教學與研究輔助第7幕分業特種接近第10幕交易文化與娛樂活動第二節"},{"start":3388.021,"end":3396.044,"text":"教育部所屬機構維持及發展輔助軍戰兆列自所屬肺炎特種基金水平確定暫行調整外改令為1713億1504萬3000元原審查報告的所列決議55、92、62、64、81、95予以刪除本項新增決議88項"},{"start":3408.123,"end":3425.74,"text":"第二項國民級學前教育署除第二目國民級學前教育第二節無利高級中等學校教學與訓練輔助第三目分一額特種基金第一節無利高級中等學校信務基金均佔照列次所屬分一額特種基金審議確定暫行調整外改例為1583億3559萬元原審查報告所列決議31予以刪除本項新增決議24項"},{"start":3435.461,"end":3461.037,"text":"第3項 體育署原審查報告所列決議38予以刪除本項新增決議9項第4項 青年發展署原審查報告所列決議6予以刪除本項新增決議1項第5項 國家圖書館本項新增決議2項第7項 國立教育廣播電臺本項新增決議1項第8項 國家教育研究院本項新增決議1項第19款 文化部主管第1項 文化部"},{"start":3461.477,"end":3471.225,"text":"本項提案三項保留送運會主力保留案號22923-0245本項新增決議39項第二項文化資產局本項新增決議3項第三項影視及流行音樂產業局本項新增決議2項"},{"start":3477.91,"end":3501.176,"text":"第6項國立臺灣公益研究發展中心本項新增決議二項第7項國立臺灣博物館本項新增決議引項第8項國立臺灣史勤文化博物館本項新增決議引項第9項國家人權博物館本項新增決議二項第10項國立臺灣力學博物館本項新增決議二項第22款國家科學及技術委員會主管第1項國家科學及技術委員會本項新增決議五項"},{"start":3502.536,"end":3529.836,"text":"第二項新竹科學園區管理局本項新增權益項第三項中部科學園區管理局本項新增權益項第四項南部科學園區管理局本項新增權益項請園區教育及文化委員會審查結果通過宣讀完畢教育及文化委員會審查部分除保理部分外其餘經照學商結論通過請先讀交通委員會"},{"start":3530.737,"end":3546.01,"text":"交通委員會一稅入部分第三款規配收入第167項數位發展部改令為25億3748萬5千元二稅出部分第二款行政委員主管第14項國家通訊傳播委員會提案19案保留商務會主力保留案號19、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26新增決議4項"},{"start":3554.296,"end":3575.152,"text":"第16項國家運輸安全調查委員會新增決議二項第18項公共工程委員會新增決議六項第14款交通部主管第一項交通部除第4幕營業基金第5幕分業特種基金軍產策略自首署營業基金分業特種基金審議確定後再起調整外其餘軍產策略提案人案保留送運會處理保留N號7786新增決議62項"},{"start":3578.394,"end":3604.632,"text":"第二項民用航空局新增決議二項第三項中央氣象署新增決議一項第四項觀光署及所署新增決議十六項第五項運輸研究所新增決議二項第六項公路局及所署新增決議十六項第七項鐵道局及所署新增決議五項第八項航港局新增決議一項第二十款數位發展部主管提案二案保留送運會處理保留N號279292第一項數位發展部"},{"start":3608.294,"end":3612.397,"text":"改列為28億3,529萬3千元新增決議27項第二項自投安全署新增決議4項第三項數位產業署改列為36億9,674萬4千元新增決議3項其餘軍艙超通運輝審查結果通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":3631.974,"end":3638.94,"text":"交通委員會審查部分除保留部分外區域經照學商結論通過請先讀司法及法治委員會"},{"start":3640.199,"end":3663.947,"text":"司法及法制委員會一稅入部分第二款發款及賠償收入﹐第28項臺灣公等法院改例為338萬7千元﹐第三款規費收入﹐第23項臺灣公等法院改例為3億6409萬9千元﹐二稅出部分第一款總統府主管第一項總統府改例為11億5000萬5千元﹐新增決議一項第二款行政院主管第三項人事行政總署"},{"start":3666.127,"end":3685.01,"text":"改例委24億0524萬8千元新增決議22項第三款立法院主管第一項立法院新增決議17項第四款司法院主管第一項司法院新增決議26項第五款考試院主管第一項考試院新增決議10項"},{"start":3687.662,"end":3712.689,"text":"第二項考選部新增決議三項第三項詮釋部新增決議八項第四項公務人員保障及培訓委員會新增決議三項第六項公務人員退休撫恤基金管理局新增決議二項第六款監察院主管第一項監察院新增決議六項第十五款防務部主管第一項防務部新增決議37項"},{"start":3715.987,"end":3739.366,"text":"第4項雷戰署新增決議1項第5項矯正署及所屬新增決議5項第7項最高檢察署新增決議2項第8項臺灣高等檢察署新增決議2項第37項調查局提案2案保留送運會處理保留案號211 213其餘軍將司法及法監委會審查結果通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":3741.087,"end":3749.044,"text":"施法及法治委員會審查部分除保的部分外：區域經照協商結論通過：請先讀社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":3750.566,"end":3775.848,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員會一稅入部分第二款發款及賠償收入第一五零項職業安全衛生署改令為一億八千五百萬元二稅出部分第十五款勞動部主管本款新增決議一項第一項勞動部本項新增決議三十三項第二項勞工保險局改令為三十六億七千九百四十二萬二千元本項新增決議二項第三項勞動力發展主席所屬本項新增決議五項"},{"start":3777.589,"end":3801.438,"text":"第4項 職業安全衛生署改令為8億7千5百1十5萬5千元本項新增權益6項第17款衛生福利部主管 第一項衛生福利部除第16項肺炎特種基金賺照列4所屬肺炎特種基金水域確定後再行調整外改令為2千286億6千3百23萬3千元提案一案保留送運會處理保留案號128本項新增權益94項"},{"start":3803.959,"end":3821.266,"text":"第二項吉林管制署本項新增決議三項第三項食品藥物管理署改例為32億1258萬9千元本項新增決議四項第四項中央健康保險署本項新增決議六項第五項國民健康署本項新增決議五項"},{"start":3822.646,"end":3848.676,"text":"第6項 社會及家庭署除第5目非營業特種基金賺到率是所屬非營業特種基金衛生福利特別輸入基金稅確定後再行調整外改例為458億5955萬3千元提案二案保留送業會處理保留案號212213本項新增決議二項第18款環境部主管 第一項環境部提案一案保留送業會處理保留案號221本項新增決議21項"},{"start":3851.587,"end":3872.862,"text":"第二項計畫變遷屬本項新增決議7項第三項資源循環屬本項新增決議4項第四項化學物質管理屬本項新增決議3項第五項環境管理屬本項新增決議2項其餘軍照社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查結果通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":3874.835,"end":3895.74,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查部分除保留部分外：區域經照協商結論通過報告委員會總預算案非保留部分已經處理告一段落現在休息三分鐘休息後改開祕密會議處理外交及國防委員會審查機密部分"},{"start":3900.211,"end":3901.633,"text":"開始布置開始布置"},{"start":4274.66,"end":4295.787,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會進行保留部分之處理依協商結論保留部分進行處理前由時代力量黨團、臺灣民眾黨團、國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團各推派一人發言現在進行各黨團推派之代表發言請陳委員交法發言"},{"start":4306.263,"end":4311.407,"text":"院長各位委員大家好針對總預算的審查時代力量黨團認為國家通訊傳播委員會作為專責獨立之行政機關"},{"start":4317.677,"end":4346.059,"text":"本不該對媒體監理有政黨顏色之分而應對各種發現違法行為依法處分並及時裁罰今年11月底國家通訊傳播委員會提出了拖了三個月的宗家案承諾事項書面報告內容卻說三立公司承諾在半年內將股權轉讓至於要不要裁罰宗家跟三立則再研究"},{"start":4346.759,"end":4368.529,"text":"此外 三立持有宗家27%的股權 報告卻僅針對其中15%股權做出股權轉讓的承諾至於另外12%部分 卻僅表示代持協議終止 卻完全未交代12%股份的去向"},{"start":4370.011,"end":4389.468,"text":"通傳會作為我國傳播監理的獨立機關近年無疑是以各種不作為的方式放任違法業者聯手打造媒體壟斷拒售而該會法律檢轉讓股份及媒視卻未針對業者作出裁罰處置"},{"start":4390.729,"end":4406.324,"text":"更嚴重踐踏了人民賦予獨立機關的信任及尊嚴因此史太利亞黨團為改善通傳會作為獨立機關之權能緣此提案凍結特別費等科目預算100%"},{"start":4408.326,"end":4426.994,"text":"在該會於一個月提出專案檢討報告並經同意後使得動之希望各黨團各委員予以支持另外中正紀念堂的轉型是轉型正義工程中的重中之重"},{"start":4428.435,"end":4442.315,"text":"實至今日三軍一隊仍然在威權統治者的同向前面守衛交接持續延續國家對威權統治者的個人崇拜實在是"},{"start":4442.876,"end":4461.397,"text":"不符合民主精神中正紀念堂轉型是個大功臣無法一觸可及而我們也不該再讓威權崇拜以這麼明目張膽的形式繼續存在現在能夠改變的就應該去改變"},{"start":4463.199,"end":4491.372,"text":"實力黨團因此於113年度公務預算向行政院國防部和文化部提案要求作為中正紀念堂轉型的主責機關和相關機關應負起責任提出具體規劃一年內將三軍一隊撤離過去陳水扁前總統做得到現在蔡英總統一定也做得到請各位委員支持一起成為轉型正義的最後"},{"start":4494.619,"end":4523.437,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員接下來請邱委員陳遠發言游院長 各位委員 全體國人同胞大家好台灣民眾黨團針對113年度中央政府總預算秉持一如既往的堅守財政紀律的原則善盡國會對行政機關理性監督之責"},{"start":4524.378,"end":4548.624,"text":"本黨團113年度中央政府總預算案的提案重點包含民怨已深的打詐不利輪迴笑柄的資安及國安以及攸關國人生命安全的交通改革執政黨被詬病的大內宣以及政治力介入媒體的問題缺乏精準預估造成的稅收超徵以及本黨團長期倡議的財政紀律2050淨零碳排"},{"start":4552.305,"end":4576.08,"text":"企業變遷、勞工權益及退休保障、居住正義、數位經濟以及產業發展等等議題都是我們提案的重點在預算的審查過程中本黨團浮現對國家的憂心仍有許多待解決的危機與人民需要被照顧的地方例如少子女化以及超高齡化造成的國安危機"},{"start":4576.94,"end":4598.36,"text":"中高齡就業、高房價、高租金、低薪、通膨、高房價造成青年世代的相對剝奪感這些都是民怨以身的社會問題需要政府繼續努力鑒於台海情勢升溫本黨團對於國防預算也秉其理性、務實、科學的監督方向"},{"start":4599.18,"end":4607.965,"text":"確保相關預算的編列能夠有效提升我國的戰力保護國人的安全 落實全民國防的政策目標"},{"start":4609.232,"end":4634.073,"text":"接下來要進行的保留案我們之所以會堅持到院會進行表決是因為相關的提案可能會傷害到臺灣的民主以及行政中立媒體獨立以及近年排放目標達成的相關公正轉型的議題以及造成民眾恐慌的各自安全這個都是我們堅持到表決的提案重點"},{"start":4635.629,"end":4661.99,"text":"過去四年 臺灣民眾黨立法委員以及我們的立院黨團作為最負責任的在野黨將人民關注的議題與訴求透過預算提案 法案提案的形式監督執政黨 替納稅人把關並且在各黨忙於選務的同時我們仍然堅守職責到最後一刻發揮關鍵少數的力量明天將是本屆最後一刻會期的結束"},{"start":4662.531,"end":4676.733,"text":"以及提前休會也期盼各黨能夠善盡監督的職責共同完成明年度的總預算審查謝謝大家好 謝謝邱委員接下來請曾委員民眾發言"},{"start":4686.803,"end":4698.664,"text":"院長各位同仁現在立法院正在審議113年度中央政府總預算我有三點說明第一點"},{"start":4700.117,"end":4723.74,"text":"本年度明年度中央總預算稅出編列兩兆8817億經審議後3.299億只有佔1%顯示朝野對這個預算都非常支持我要在這裡慎重的跟大家報告明年國民黨重返執政"},{"start":4724.801,"end":4749.172,"text":"一定會將這個總預算每一塊錢都花在刀口上為全民謀福利促進國家安全經濟發展社會穩定我代表國民黨在做出保證這第一點第二點有關預算外我們也提出主決議尤其是針對NCC主委陳耀祥"},{"start":4749.992,"end":4772.872,"text":"他任內撤銷中天電視台他的行政處分已經經過行政法院原息11次撤銷NCC的公信力蕩然無存所以陳耀祥應該下台不合適再擔任主委職務另外我們也全數刪除他的特別會47萬元"},{"start":4775.407,"end":4790.411,"text":"另外我要跟各位報告蔡政府執政即將結束那蔡政府到底這段期間到底有沒有再留祖孫再留下一任政府"},{"start":4791.36,"end":4814.715,"text":"我在這裡跟各位報告總帳蔡政府8年內提出13項特別預算連年都提出特別預算金額高達兩兆4966億創歷史新高蔡政府把特別預算常態化常態化財政敗壞"},{"start":4816.196,"end":4825.589,"text":"另外還有包括三個特別預算包括新式戰機、海空戰力提升還有前瞻舊建設的第4期"},{"start":4827.216,"end":4852.344,"text":"他的三個特別預算會到113、114、115才執行這部分高達6795億強迫下一任政府接受他的提出來的預算所以簡單講依照財政部的資料顯示113年到10月底中央政府債務已有是6兆5676億加上三個特別預算"},{"start":4855.885,"end":4875.057,"text":"六千七百九十億合計高達兩兆兩千四百七十億蔡政府再留主身蔡政府再留主身再留下一任政府好 謝謝曾委員接下來請林委員處應發言"},{"start":4892.794,"end":4918.658,"text":"謝謝主席首先感謝朝野黨團及委員共同努力歷經兩個多月各委員會的審查及黨團的協商今年總預算終於可以順利的來進行二三讀113年度中央政府總預算稅入是兩兆七千零九十二億元最初是兩兆八千八百一十八億元都創下歷史新高而依法編列的還債金額也來到了一千一百五十億元"},{"start":4919.238,"end":4934.608,"text":"也創下了23年的最高﹐高於過去馬政府執政的時期近年來﹐國內經濟穩健成長﹐帶動稅收增加﹐落實各項政府支出的表現﹐讓國家的財政得以持續改善﹐進而致應更多"},{"start":4935.549,"end":4953.789,"text":"提升國家競爭力的計劃來完備我們的社會安全系統健全社會及教育發展強化國防安全等等的需求113年度的總預算當中有關於強化幼兒照顧改善公托跟准公托設施等少子女化的政策我們就編列了1201元"},{"start":4956.212,"end":4971.487,"text":"而長照服務的預算也來到了876億元大幅增加也是歷年的最高雖然有人不斷的批評政府大撒幣質疑政府的財政但是蔡政府在上台至今105年到112年度已經還債了7960億元"},{"start":4977.392,"end":4989.276,"text":"而且從107年到112年度因為課稅的收入執行優於預期也就是優於我們原本編列的預算原定編列還債跟舉債的預算總計是6,556億元過去我們從來編列當中我們沒有再進行舉債"},{"start":4999.18,"end":5011.944,"text":"這幾年當中中央政府呈現增加還本減少舉債中央政府長期債務從105年蔡政府上任的5.4兆截至今年的11月30號實際的數字是5.8兆元"},{"start":5017.106,"end":5040.436,"text":"約略增加了4200億元還債比率由105年底的33%下降到今年的27.2%這都是政府努力增加政府的經濟增加稅收來增加還債能量的一個表現在健全的財政情況底下運用財政穩定讓經濟成長"},{"start":5043.035,"end":5070.517,"text":"增加政府的稅收提升財政的能量成為一個良性的循環這幾年我們也看到幾個重要的國際信用的平等對於台灣的平等也都是持正向或者是調升的一個態度肯定我們國家財政的優異表現洛桑管理學院更把2023年世界競爭力我國的排名前進了四位來到了第六位這都是反映政府"},{"start":5071.037,"end":5094.566,"text":"持續的減少舉債跟增加還本的政府的績效謝謝林委員報告委員會各黨團推派委員都已經發言完畢現在處理內政委員會保留部分報告委員會國民黨黨團撤回第42案不予處理"},{"start":5098.534,"end":5121.199,"text":"現在請宣讀第21案第21案 台灣民眾黨黨團提案針對新聞傳播業務科目凍結2000千元是行政院提出如何有效降低詐騙案件之具體作為向本院內政委員會提出專案報告後 使得動之宣讀完畢現在進行表決按鈴7分鐘並分花表決卡"},{"start":5546.022,"end":5552.389,"text":"報告委員會現有民進黨黨團要求記名表決記名表決實現1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":5629.588,"end":5655.256,"text":"表決結果出席80人 贊成6人 反對52人 棄權22人贊成者少數 免案不通過請先讀第三十案第三十案 台灣民眾黨黨團提案提案凍結行政院113年度各自保護委員會籌備業務預算20121千元是行政院向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告 經同意後 使得動之 宣讀完畢"},{"start":5657.501,"end":5661.346,"text":"現在進行表決現有民進黨兩團要求基本表決 基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":5701.355,"end":5706.507,"text":"吳委員心靈聲明對剛才表決以台灣民眾黨黨團意見一致列入公報記錄"},{"start":5735.063,"end":5760.845,"text":"表決結果出席82年、贊成7年、反對52年、棄前23年、贊成者有少數、扁案不通過請宣讀第38案第38案國民黨黨團提案行政院編列預算之因之性別平等會有未一設置要點規範定期開會原決議期限於一個月內提交書面報告宣讀完畢現在進行表決現有民進黨黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":5770.964,"end":5775.268,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公報告"},{"start":5796.148,"end":5799.209,"text":"中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":5835.319,"end":5841.683,"text":"表決結果出席84人贊成贊成30人反退52人棄權2人贊成者少數貶案不通過請先讀第38案民進黨團"},{"start":5854.489,"end":5865.959,"text":"對案第38案明星大黨團體案允請行政院性別平等會仍應持續落實性別平等重要議題及各部會性別平等業務之複雜考核並將辦理前嫌向立法院內政委會提出書面報告宣讀完畢"},{"start":5873.779,"end":5897.681,"text":"請宣讀第48案第48案中國國民黨黨團提案要求行政院應及主動調查政文參與擔任公職期間是否涉及不當引咽應酬及不當利益輸送之形式並於一個月內提出調查報告宣讀完畢現在進行表決現有民進黨黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間一分鐘現在開始王偉言、洪威"},{"start":5899.423,"end":5903.987,"text":"吳偉賢 怡丁 昇林對剛才表決以國民黨黨團一線一次列入公報記錄"},{"start":5928.977,"end":5932.279,"text":"本院財政委員會本院財政委員會本院財政委員會本院財政委員會"},{"start":5966.188,"end":5989.178,"text":"表決結果出席84件戰爭31件反對51件棄權2件戰爭左右少數本案不通過請先讀第49案第49案國民黨黨團提案要求行政院及所屬部會施政應腳踏實地避免濫用國家對之民損及政府威信宣讀完畢現在進行表決現在民進黨黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6023.953,"end":6028.575,"text":"王媛婉譽聲明對剛才表決以時代力量黨團意見一致列入公報記錄"},{"start":6061.433,"end":6065.176,"text":"表決結果出席85人 贊成31人 反對51人 棄權3人 贊成者少數 別案不通過 請先讀第51案之一"},{"start":6073.186,"end":6082.731,"text":"第51案國民黨黨團提案要求行政院應設立中央住宅委員會或住宅政策推動彙報提出完整國家住宅計畫以及解決民眾居住問題宣讀完畢"},{"start":6164.229,"end":6181.945,"text":"表決結果初期85年暫程34年反對51年期前0年暫程左右少數本案不通過請宣讀第52案第52案時代力量黨團提案要求國防部提出一年內將三軍儀隊撤離中正經驗堂之具體規劃宣讀完畢現在繼續表決現任民進黨團時代力量黨團要求具備表決具備表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6191.237,"end":6192.198,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6258.433,"end":6262.836,"text":"表決結果出席84人 贊成3人 反對76人 棄權5人 贊成多少數 本案不通過請先讀第52案"},{"start":6268.141,"end":6289.072,"text":"民進黨黨團對案第52案民進黨黨團提案請行政院責成文化部與轉型爭議彙報下設之中正紀念堂轉型推動專案小組江山俊儀隊撤離中正紀念堂問題與3個月內向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告宣讀完畢請問如果針對扁案有沒有異議沒有好沒有異議那扁案照案通過請先讀第90案"},{"start":6291.223,"end":6292.544,"text":"現在進行表決現在民進黨黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6323.404,"end":6338.545,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":6358.207,"end":6358.715,"text":"中華民國113年度"},{"start":6388.666,"end":6399.053,"text":"表決結果出席85年戰爭24年反對51年記憶前10年戰爭者少數本案不通過請宣讀第93案第93案 台灣民眾黨黨團提案凍結中央選舉委員會113年度選舉預算1%是中央選舉委員會於一個月內向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告後使得動之宣讀完畢現在進行表決現有民進黨團要求進兵表決進兵表決時間一中現在開始"},{"start":6420.987,"end":6428.496,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查報告"},{"start":6446.094,"end":6449.077,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":6487.541,"end":6503.766,"text":"表決結果初期84年暫整20年反對51年去前13年暫整多少數本案不通過請宣讀第119案第119案國民黨黨團提案近日黨長會以嚴重違反行政中立相關規範原提案所長特別費懸處刪除宣讀完畢"},{"start":6505.506,"end":6507.648,"text":"現在進行表決現在民進黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6542.641,"end":6562.335,"text":"中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":6581.632,"end":6588.533,"text":"表決結果 出席85人 贊成26人 反對51人 棄權8人 贊成者少數 本案不通過 請宣讀第120案第120案 國民黨黨團提案 針對第二款17項惡務黨產處理業務預算1億57萬6千元全數刪除 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6601.005,"end":6602.866,"text":"現在進行表決現任民進黨黨團要求紀表決紀表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6630.812,"end":6631.133,"text":"本院財政委員會討論"},{"start":6677.355,"end":6681.596,"text":"表決結果出席85件 贊成26件 反對51件 棄議前8件 贊成者少數本案不通過 請先讀第173案"},{"start":6687.332,"end":6707.479,"text":"第173案時代力量黨團提案．請凍結內政資訊業務向下互譯政資訊作業及管理預算30%．待內政部於兩個月內就互證資料外泄事件公開調查報告．經本院內政委員會同意後．使得動之宣讀完畢現在繼續表決現有民進黨黨團時代力量黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6717.739,"end":6719.388,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":6781.277,"end":6803.065,"text":"表決結果 初期85件 贊成9件 反對51件 棄權25件 贊成則少數 本案不通過現在處理外交及國防委員會保留部分 請宣讀第76案第76案 時代力量黨團提案 要求國防部提出一年內將三軍儀隊撤離中正經驗黨制具體規劃 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6807.322,"end":6811.924,"text":"現在進行表決 現在民進黨黨團此代力量黨團要求基本表決 基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6855.936,"end":6865.544,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6884.585,"end":6912.563,"text":"表決結果出席79人 贊成3人 反對76人 棄前0人 贊成左少數本案不通過 請先讀第76案 民進黨黨團對案第76案 民進黨黨團提案有關山郡儀隊是否撤出中正紀念堂請國防部應配合專案小組轉型方案及原則 把你後續示疑宣讀完畢請問各位 針對本案有沒有異議沒有沒有異議 那本案就照案通過 請先讀第90案"},{"start":6914.448,"end":6935.041,"text":"第90案時代力量黨團提案先請凍結政治作戰局軍事行政預算10%待政治作戰局於兩個月內依法完成寡婦樓都更安置解除契約收回國有土地寧居書面報告今本院外交國防委員會同意後時的凍結宣讀完畢現在進行表決現留民進黨團時代力量黨團要進行表決進行表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6940.583,"end":6945.01,"text":"楊偉炎窮因生病對剛才表決以國民黨黨團意見一致列入公報記錄"},{"start":7015.404,"end":7039.276,"text":"表決結果出席86人 贊成30人 團隊52人 贊成者少數 扁案不通過請宣讀第90案民進黨黨團對案第90案民進黨黨團提案 請國防部政治作戰局應緊速依申請續之相關規定 撤銷最優申請人資格 並辦理後續事宜 宣讀完畢請問會主席扁案有沒有異議"},{"start":7040.56,"end":7059.464,"text":"好沒有異議那本案交案通過請宣讀第157案157案國民黨黨團提案要求凍結僑委會首長特別費三分之一向本院外交及國防委員會提出專案報告竟同意後使得動之宣讀完畢現在進行表決現有民進黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7081.454,"end":7081.834,"text":"未來的經濟"},{"start":7090.686,"end":7098.288,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告"},{"start":7133.72,"end":7144.505,"text":"表決結果出席85點贊成34點反對51點7點0點贊成者少數表案不通過現在處理經濟委員會保留部分請先讀第5案第5案 台灣民眾黨黨團提案要求凍結國家發展委員會113年度規劃及推動國家發展計畫綜合業務經費10%是國發會於1個月內將書面報告送抵立法院經濟委員會後使得動之宣讀完畢"},{"start":7160.937,"end":7162.219,"text":"現在進行表決"},{"start":7239.943,"end":7247.265,"text":"表決結果出席86人贊成8人反對51人棄權27人贊成者少數免案不通過請先讀第253案現在進行表決現任民進黨黨團時代力量黨團要求居民表決居民表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7282.377,"end":7282.56,"text":"主席"},{"start":7342.293,"end":7363.286,"text":"表決結果出席85件 贊成3件 反對51件 棄議前31件 贊成左右少數本案不通過 請先讀第二五五案第二五五案 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案凍結農業部113年度農業管理預算10%要求農業部於每個月定期上立法院經濟委員會提出執行進度之書面報告 實得動之 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7363.911,"end":7365.154,"text":"現在進行表決現在民進黨黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7444.946,"end":7471.238,"text":"表決結果出席86人贊成7人反對52人棄權24人贊成左右少數本案不通過請宣讀第304案第304案國民黨黨團提案要求農業部應檢討畜牧法第25條嚴禮將畜牧師及中央畜產會合併之可行性必於三個月內向立法院經濟委員會提出書面報告宣讀完畢現在進行表決現任民進黨黨團要求居民表決居民表決時間預算現在開始"},{"start":7475.103,"end":7478.446,"text":"邱委員自委聲明：對剛才表決以民進黨黨團113年度公報記錄"},{"start":7508.524,"end":7512.466,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7545.953,"end":7570.557,"text":"表決結果出席87件戰爭32件反對52件計前3件戰爭者少數本案不通過請宣讀332之1案第332之1案委員李桂民等提案就全國農業金庫對農業部專案進口雞蛋貸款業務進行檢查並於兩個月內向立法院財政委員會提出專案報告宣讀完畢現在進行表決現在民進黨黨團要求進兵表決進兵表決時間約束中現在開始"},{"start":7577.748,"end":7589.973,"text":"邱委員陳年聲明．剛才表決以臺灣民眾黨黨團一件一次列入公報紀錄王委員婉玉聲明．剛才表決以時代力量黨團一件一次列入公報紀錄"},{"start":7606.493,"end":7607.414,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":7647.397,"end":7665.53,"text":"表決結果出席88人 贊成36人 反對52人 棄前0人贊成者有少數 本案不通過現在處理教育及文化委員會保留部分第245案 撤案就不予處理"},{"start":7666.463,"end":7669.704,"text":"請先讀第229案現在繼續表決現在民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7754.969,"end":7759.932,"text":"表決結果出席81點贊成3點反對78點棄權0點贊成而少數本案不通過請宣讀第230案第230案時代力量黨團提案請文化部於一年內提出將三軍儀隊撤離中正經驗堂之具體規劃宣讀完畢"},{"start":7773.204,"end":7777.39,"text":"現在來進行表決現有民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求具備表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":7800.933,"end":7803.231,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":7852.278,"end":7856.019,"text":"表決結果初期83年贊成、3年反對、80年棄權、0年贊成的少數本案不通過"},{"start":7860.607,"end":7885.999,"text":"現在處理交通委員會保障部分報告委員會國民黨黨團撤回第21案、第22案、第23案、第25案均不予處理請先讀第一案第一案時代力量黨團提案建請解列NCC一般行政預算五千萬元動機NCC一般行政預算百分之五十但NCC於兩個月內就中加案三例違規情節諸諸妥適之處分理據書面報告並經本院交通委員會同意後使得動之宣讀完畢"},{"start":7887.982,"end":7892.285,"text":"現在進行表決先留民進黨黨團時代力量黨團邀請進兵講解進兵表決時間由從現在開始"},{"start":7920.043,"end":7949.695,"text":"本院財政委員會出席"},{"start":7968.006,"end":7971.168,"text":"表決結果出席88點贊成36點反對52點棄權0點贊成只有少數本案不通過請先讀第9案"},{"start":7977.486,"end":7988.394,"text":"第9案 國民黨黨團提案 三組主任委員及副主任委員特別費711千元是國家通訊傳播委員會提出檢討及改善報告 宣讀完畢現在進行表決現任民進黨黨團要求進兵表決進兵表決時間應用中現在開始"},{"start":8014.13,"end":8018.801,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":8065.074,"end":8085.724,"text":"表決結果出席87點戰爭31點反對53點棄權3點戰爭則少數本案不通過請先讀第10案第10案委員陳昭華提案凍結特別費100%待國家通訊傳播委員會向外界完整說明並於1個月內向本院交通委員會提出專案檢討報告經同意後時可動之宣讀完畢"},{"start":8086.952,"end":8091.534,"text":"現在要進行表決現在有民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8124.045,"end":8147.521,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告"},{"start":8164.253,"end":8168.096,"text":"表決結果初期84人贊成32人反對52人棄權0人贊成6人少數本案不通過請先讀第11案"},{"start":8173.154,"end":8185.083,"text":"第11案委員陳家華等提案凍結特別費百分之百﹐待國家通訊傳播委員會向外界完整說明﹐並於一個月內向本院交通委員會提出專案檢討報告﹐經同意後時可動之宣讀完畢"},{"start":8197.473,"end":8206.322,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8264.602,"end":8291.21,"text":"表決結果出席88人贊成36人反對52人棄權0人贊成只有少數本案不通過請先讀第12案第12案委員陳嘉華等提案凍結特別費百分之百待國家通訊傳播委員會於1個月內向本院交通委員會提出專案檢討報告經同意後時可動之宣讀完畢現在繼續表決現有民進黨黨團時代力量黨團要求進兵表決進兵表決時間一中現在開始"},{"start":8367.796,"end":8392.463,"text":"表決結果出席88件贊成36件反對52件棄權0件贊成者少數本案不通過刑先讀第13案第13案時代力量黨團提案凍結一般行政基本行政工作維持特別費科目預算百分之百供給期一億千元是該會於一個月內向本院交通委員會提出本案之專案檢討報告並經同意後使得動之宣讀完畢現在進行表決現在民進黨黨團時代力量黨團邀請進兵表決進兵表決時間運動現在開始"},{"start":8467.404,"end":8492.342,"text":"表決結果初期88點贊成36點反對52點棄權0點贊成有少數扁案不通過請宣讀第14案第14案 台灣民眾黨黨團提案凍結國家通訊傳播委員會113年一般行政基本行政工作維持費用特別費預算50%是國家通訊傳播委員會於1個月內向立法院交通委員會提出專案報告經交通委員會同意後使得動之 宣讀完畢"},{"start":8493.421,"end":8497.391,"text":"現在進行表決向民進黨黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間一中現在開始"},{"start":8571.55,"end":8596.182,"text":"表決結果出席88點贊成36點反對52點7點0點贊成則少數本案不通過請先讀第15案第15案台灣民眾黨黨團提案凍結國家通訊傳播委員會113年一般行政基本行政工作維持費用特別費預算50%是國家通訊傳播委員會於一個月內向立法院交通委員會提出專案報告經交通委員會同意後使得動之選讀完畢現在進行"},{"start":8598.844,"end":8600.491,"text":"進行表決現任民進黨黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":8673.817,"end":8694.126,"text":"好 表決結果 初期88件贊成36件反對52件棄權0件贊成則少數本案不通過 請先讀第16案第16案 國民黨黨團提案 要求通傳會主委陳耀祥113年度一般行政主委特別費47萬7千元全數簡略 選讀完畢好 現在進行表決 現有民進黨團要求進行表決 進行表決時間入中 現在開始"},{"start":8771.806,"end":8794.063,"text":"表決結果出席87人贊成35人反對52人競選0人贊成者少數本案不通過請先讀第17案第17案委員傅坤祺等提案要求國家通訊傳播委員會與相關單位成立調查小組並於一個月內對立法院交通委員會提出調查報告宣讀完畢現在進行表決憲永平進黨黨團要求記名表決記名表決時間入座現在開始"},{"start":8869.554,"end":8875.718,"text":"表決結果出席88人 贊成36人 反對52人 棄權0人 贊成只有少數本案不通過 請宣讀第18案現在進行表決 現有民進黨黨團 要求進行表決 進行表決時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":8965.629,"end":8988.77,"text":"表決結果出席88人 贊成36人 反對52人 棄權0人 贊成者少數 本案不通過 請宣讀第19案第19案 委員傅坤祺等提案 要求國家通訊傳播委員會﹐針對中天電視不換照處分進行檢討﹐並於一個月內對立法院交通委員會提出專案報告 宣讀完畢現在進行表決 現有民進黨黨團﹐要求居民表決 居民表決時間運動現在開始"},{"start":9009.545,"end":9016.733,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公報告"},{"start":9063.642,"end":9068.003,"text":"表決結果出席88人贊成28人反對52人棄權8人贊成者少數本案不通過請先讀第22"},{"start":9079.471,"end":9085.436,"text":"好那第20案測案就不予處理請宣讀第24案現在進行表決現在民進黨黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":9175.968,"end":9197.645,"text":"表決結果出席88人贊成36人反對52人棄權0人贊成則少數別案不通過請宣讀第26案第26案國民黨黨團提案要求國家通訊傳播委員會NCC全面清查媒體集團有無利用多層次轉投資媒體請示於3個月內提出書面報告送立法院宣讀完畢現在進行表決現任民進黨黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間1鐘現在開始"},{"start":9214.005,"end":9225.167,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告"},{"start":9275.117,"end":9298.042,"text":"表決結果出席88件贊成36件反對52件棄權0件贊成則少數本案不通過請先讀第77案第77案時代力量黨團提案堅行凍結交通運輸規劃及產業發展向下道路交通安全預算10%在交通部於6個月內你據書面報告經本院交通委員會同意後使得動之宣讀完畢"},{"start":9299.202,"end":9304.105,"text":"現在進行表決現有民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求近名表決、近名表決時間運動現在開始"},{"start":9377.215,"end":9381.057,"text":"表決結果出席88人 贊成11人 反對52人 棄權25人 贊成左少數本案不通過 請先讀第86案"},{"start":9388.086,"end":9390.767,"text":"現在進行表決現在民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要進行表決進行表決時間由現在開始"},{"start":9421.118,"end":9421.842,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":9482.011,"end":9494.958,"text":"表決結果出席88件暫程3件反對52件棄前33件暫程所少數本案不通過請先讀第279案第279案 時代力量黨團提案 建行檢列數位創新關鍵基礎建設計畫預算5000萬元並凍結10% 待數位部於兩個月內向本院交通委員會提出具體計畫說明 使得動之 宣讀完畢"},{"start":9505.327,"end":9506.531,"text":"現在進行表決現有民進黨黨團、時代力量黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間六鐘現在開始"},{"start":9583.188,"end":9607.764,"text":"表決結果初期88年贊成3年反對52年棄權33年贊成只有少數本案不通過請宣讀第292案第292案時代力量黨團提案先行凍結政府骨幹網路傳輸計劃預算10%待需衛部於2個月內擬拒書面報告並經本院交通委員會同意後使得動之宣讀完畢現在進行表決現有名進黨黨團時代力量黨團要求進兵表決進兵表決時間用途現在開始"},{"start":9613.959,"end":9629.351,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查報告"},{"start":9644.377,"end":9672.585,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":9683.547,"end":9698.837,"text":"表決結果出席88人贊成8人反對52人去選28人贊成者少數本案不通過現在處理司法及法治委員會保留部分請先讀第211案"},{"start":9700.646,"end":9715.176,"text":"第二議案 討論民眾黨黨團提案凍結調查局一般行政基本行政工作維持費一萬千元並於一個月內向司法及法治委員會提出書面報告並經同意後實的動之宣讀完畢現在進行表決現有民進黨黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間一分鐘現在開始好"},{"start":9746.386,"end":9749.849,"text":"紅衛門凱聲明．剛才表決以國民黨黨團一件一字列入公報記錄"},{"start":9791.389,"end":9796.033,"text":"表決結果初期89人贊成6人反對52人棄權31人贊成左右少數本案不通過請先讀第213案"},{"start":9802.642,"end":9823.351,"text":"第二、一、三案 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案 凍結法務部調查局113年度司法調查業務下國家安全維護及安全防護工作預算10%是調查局就選舉不受到假消息及各自外洩影響於一個月內向立法院司法及法治委員會提出書面報告 使得動之 宣讀完畢現在進行表決 現有民進黨黨團要求居民表決 居民表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":9842.401,"end":9843.282,"text":"審查報告"},{"start":9896.183,"end":9910.754,"text":"表決結果出席89人 贊成5人 反對52人 7人 32人 贊成有少數 本案不通過現在處理社會福利及衛生環境委員會保留部分 請進入第128案"},{"start":9911.874,"end":9918.756,"text":"第128案國民黨黨團提案要求衛福部強制進口豬肉標示來機成分以保障國人食安宣讀完畢"},{"start":9939.485,"end":9967.644,"text":"林委員為周生民對剛才表決以國民黨黨團意見一致列入公報記錄法定人數不足"},{"start":10005.329,"end":10028.688,"text":"表決結果出席90人贊成33人反對52人棄權5人贊成只有少數本案不通過請先讀第212案國民黨黨團提案要求衛福部社家屬在未進行詳盡評估且獲得利害相關團體的共識前應舉行多場大型公聽會聆聽基層產業新生關注家長團體產業及托育人員真正需求前"},{"start":10029.068,"end":10036.551,"text":"建議該項預算著以調整成針對推動公共化托育計畫向下﹐給予適當經費支持或進行依法必要之允之宣讀完畢"},{"start":10114.827,"end":10143.775,"text":"表決結果出席89年戰爭29年反對52年、7年、8年戰爭的少數本案不通過請宣讀第212案第212案民進黨黨團提案為保障嬰幼兒照顧品質是民進黨黨團對案好來請宣讀第212案民進黨黨團提案為保障嬰幼兒照顧品質請衛福部向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告宣讀完畢"},{"start":10144.653,"end":10145.573,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10169.907,"end":10174.392,"text":"中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":10230.899,"end":10260.021,"text":"表決結果出席89人贊成52人反對30人棄權7人贊成卓多數本案通過請宣讀第213案第213案 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案提案動前預算6萬千元自衛生福利部社會家庭署與6個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告不經同意後 實得動之宣讀完畢"},{"start":10262.939,"end":10268.786,"text":"現在進行表決現任民進黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":10343.459,"end":10347.441,"text":"表決結果出席90人 贊成5人 反對52人 棄前33人"},{"start":10352.066,"end":10357.248,"text":"贊成者少數 貶案不通過請先讀第221案第221案 時代力量黨團體案"},{"start":10373.743,"end":10376.065,"text":"現在繼續表決現在民進黨黨團時代力量黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間一周現在開始"},{"start":10427.898,"end":10436.641,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10476.823,"end":10484.088,"text":"表決結果出席90人 贊成3人 反對52人 棄權35人 贊成則少數 本案不通過報告N會113年度中央政府總預算案全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問N會有沒有異議"},{"start":10504.266,"end":10518.922,"text":"好 沒有異議 那請先讀經過二讀之條文中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案 院會審議結果依稅入部分 113年度中央政府總預算案原列稅入總額為2,090億8,612萬8千元審議結果 共計增利159億9,712萬6千元"},{"start":10526.65,"end":10541.804,"text":"自因113年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算其涉及附屬單位預算營業及分營業部分之營業營業及事業收入均佔照例自附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整稅入總額佔改列為2兆7,251億8,325萬4千元審議通過後再由行政院主計總數依照各款項目分別調整紀列"},{"start":10550.311,"end":10560.894,"text":"二、稅出部分113年度中央政府總預算案原列稅出總額為2,817億8,209萬5千元審議結果共計減列299億2,622萬1千元自應113年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算其涉及附屬單位預算營業及分業部分之國庫增幅額等均佔照列自附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整"},{"start":10576.318,"end":10592.348,"text":"最初總額篆改列為2兆8,518億5,587萬4千元審議通過後再由行政院主計總署依照各款項目分別調整紀列三、融資產源調度部分113年度中央政府總預算案原列債務支償還1,150億元"},{"start":10595.07,"end":10600.537,"text":"稅入稅出差短及債務支償還合共上蓄融資調度數2875億9596萬7千元以舉借債務1720億9596萬7千元及已用1000年度稅金剩餘1155億元予以致應"},{"start":10612.092,"end":10613.713,"text":"宣讀內容已經宣讀完畢請問院會有沒有文書修正"},{"start":10639.071,"end":10663.958,"text":"本院文書修正做以下決議中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案照審查總報告修正通過本案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘並截止登記首先請陳委員交法發言"},{"start":10681.86,"end":10707.737,"text":"院長、各位委員大家好2008年野草莓學運時任民進黨黨主席蔡英文總統曾經在自由廣場前簽下了《人權永久保護書》承諾未來民進黨無論再吵或再野將全力終止行政難權、國家暴力但是15年過去了蔡政府任期也進入尾聲卻仍未見行政院提出極有惡法的修正草案"},{"start":10708.738,"end":10724.834,"text":"實在老娘在這一次的預算協商中﹐成功爭取行政院責成內政部﹐在3個月內提出研議修法草案的書面報告﹐在這個會期尾聲﹐實地黨團來完成改革的承諾﹐努力推進集會遊行法的修法"},{"start":10725.495,"end":10747.116,"text":"又針對前環保署之郎李建鈺性騷事件經環境部考機委員會審議通過依公務員懲戒法將李建鈺移送監察院審查期望監察院儘速作出懲戒讓加害者得到懲處而對前環保署長張子敬相關案件"},{"start":10747.837,"end":10774.734,"text":"實地黨團提案包庇斥案部分．環保署政風式行政調查結果．應該公開卻被封殺實地黨團要表達強烈譴責．因為如果當年張子敬選擇的．不是口頭告誡．而選擇的不是輕輕放下．而是對於李建鈺的行徑脫除懲戒．或許就能避免後來更多女性受害"},{"start":10776.588,"end":10803.345,"text":"讓他們免於承受這影響一生的痛苦如今我們看到民進黨團對張紫禁的暴斃也顯示民進黨團主席說民進黨性騷擾林鄉人是講假的針對3D宗家級地鐵事案NCC放任違法業者聯手打造媒體壟斷拒受不允裁法也要強烈抗議要求NCC一提出專案報告能被執政黨封殺"},{"start":10808.415,"end":10812.617,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 接下來請邱委員顯示發言院長各位同仁 那針對"},{"start":10830.973,"end":10854.174,"text":"中央政府總預算案113年度的總預算案十一黨團在這個過程之中提了非常多的案件那其中公益信託的這個部分是非常重要因為我國公益信託的這個種種亂象重生除了假公益增投資假公益增避稅等情勢層出不窮更有"},{"start":10854.694,"end":10862.666,"text":"五財團聯軍慈善支出比僅有0.65%﹐遠低於國人眾所需最低繳納門檻的5%﹐卻能享受高達200億以上的復稅優惠荒謬現況﹐"},{"start":10870.217,"end":10889.355,"text":"那相關團體多年來能夠穿梭自如大專法律的漏洞只需要花小錢做公益卻享受極高的賦稅的優惠實在是傷害人民的感受而除了剛剛提到的荒謬事蹟之外我國的公部門像NCC"},{"start":10890.476,"end":10912.846,"text":"以10年40億慈善支出等附帶條件有條件通過資產高達302億的公益信託林立雲基金入主中加案後NCC竟然完全疏於監督宏泰公益信託是否履行承諾引發假公益增投資的爭議更被外界嘲諷為贖罪券的條款"},{"start":10913.606,"end":10927.94,"text":"讓政府的公信力又一再蕩然無存也凸顯了公益信託法規修正的刻不容緩那既然公益信託相關規定的修法作業遙無期也未見政府正式獻出的問題"},{"start":10928.921,"end":10952.052,"text":"為了避免令人不可接受的總統情勢一再發生那在本次協商的過程中實力黨團成功爭取行政院、責成、法務部、NCC等相關單位在三個月內針對公益信託的問題督促政府去落實監管的責任那我們希望透過這樣的方式杜絕弊端以防止公益信託變質"},{"start":10962.036,"end":10962.216,"text":"主席"},{"start":10988.088,"end":10998.816,"text":"好 謝謝院長以及全體國人同胞很欣慰113年度中央政府總預算案如期在本屆會期最後一天完成三讀在2,818億元的預算規模中一共只減列了299億元"},{"start":11009.224,"end":11036.596,"text":"希望新舊兩屆政府能夠好好執行預算為民謀福利在這次簡列的內容當中最重要的包括通案簡列大陸地區旅費30%藉以凸顯民進黨政府中斷兩岸交流及溝通的現況另外簡列媒體政策及業務宣導費25%凸顯執政黨不當利用公務預算進行政治大內宣做媒體操控跟不公平競爭的問題"},{"start":11038.417,"end":11061.927,"text":"三日來我們總共審查草野提案共2195案最後仍有約48案在今天由院會進行主案表決很遺憾在執政黨完全執政的人數優勢下部分的提案全數遭到否決在這次的預算協商中也凸顯執政黨的黨團幹部不當攻擊憲法賦予立法委員監督預算的職責問題"},{"start":11063.348,"end":11090.268,"text":"一度造成草野協商終止希望執政黨記取教訓尊重立委職權尊重民意臺灣民眾黨在這次的總預算監督提案方向主要針對暗網揭露政府不當徵收打詐不利整治道路安全及資安作為不足的問題還有居住正義跳票以及提升國防跟國安等面向共提出268個提案最後本黨團提案共有11案"},{"start":11091.129,"end":11117.996,"text":"因政府未能具體保證及詳細說明因此不予妥協送交表決凸顯本黨主張及堅持今天是本屆會期最後一天本黨始終主張立法院不應選舉提早休會同時課尊財政紀律把錢花在刀火上回應廣大民意謝謝大家好 謝謝區委員接下來請謝委員依奉花言"},{"start":11129.019,"end":11137.403,"text":"縣長本會委員本院委員我們中央政府總預算113年度原列稅入總額為兩兆7091億8612萬8000元審議的結果增列了159億9712萬6000元所以"},{"start":11149.648,"end":11168.157,"text":"一一三年度總預算稅入總額改列為兩兆六千兩兆七千兩百五十一億八千三百二十五萬四千元而稅入部分原列稅出總額為兩兆八千八百一十七億八千兩百零九"},{"start":11169.498,"end":11173.101,"text":"8,209萬5千元審議結果共減列了299億2,622萬1千元稅務總額佔改列為2兆8,518億5,587萬4千元在立法院三讀後由行政院主計總處調整"},{"start":11194.42,"end":11204.69,"text":"但是國際貨幣基金在今年10月預估全球經濟成長是3%而2024年預計是2.9%那臺灣今年的經濟成長率只有0.8%截至112年6月底"},{"start":11214.159,"end":11219.401,"text":"行政院的《投資台灣三大方案》號稱累計審核通過的1372家廠商總計投資金額為2.07兆元創造14.6萬個就業機會但是"},{"start":11232.205,"end":11253.418,"text":"其實有逾三成的廠商申請延展投資的期程．或者是變更投資計畫．所以在面對國際的經濟情勢不佳．行政院不應該掉以輕心．應該要採績效跟成果的導向．重視成果效益．"},{"start":11275.579,"end":11276.939,"text":"謝謝謝委員接下來請賴委員事保發言"},{"start":11291.219,"end":11310.839,"text":"謝謝院長以及各位先進那麼這次的朝野協商過程當中我印象最深刻的是游院長的陣容發聵就他大聲疾呼啊面對愚昧的政府官員"},{"start":11312.281,"end":11336.676,"text":"我們的官員 包括行政院 包括司法院都被全面執政的民進黨寵壞了他們都說什麼 不能刪喔 不能刪喔有院長聽到沒做理啊 有院長說怎麼不可以刪 當然可以刪尤其副院長 值得大家給他鼓勵一下好不好鼓掌一下好不好"},{"start":11338.26,"end":11363.781,"text":"哪有什麼單位不能刪的經濟部的王部長居然派各組黨來跟我協商的時候居然說他們KPI只有兩個第一個叫立委撤案第二個改成主決議也就是一億塊錢都不能刪啦經濟部長下這樣的命令啦各位敢不敢看你會好過你"},{"start":11365.16,"end":11377.624,"text":"司法院他以為要怎麼樣不能刪不能刪我們刪是立委的職權過不過大家來共同決議所以這次來講這次的總預算老實講我對於NCC最不滿意"},{"start":11386.055,"end":11414.873,"text":"NCC的主委就不是被執政黨寵壞了他壞是乾淨只要對他好聽他的話吼吼吼你什麼都給你遲早不應該上架的給你上架違背規定的也沒有關係但是只要你跟政府唱反調講的事情政府被愛聽開始殺左殺右殺中天就是最好的例子被關掉NCC主委的特別會為什麼看不動我覺得執政黨"},{"start":11420.538,"end":11424.201,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員 接下來請高委員嘉瑜發言院長各位委員近年來因為托嬰中心的額虐事件頻傳而且行為嚴重的程度也日益升高在衛福部統計下110年到112年6月托嬰中心發生托嬰人員不當對待兒童的案件數有114件"},{"start":11450.462,"end":11460.771,"text":"109年到112年的11月﹐地方政府調查脫穎中心涉嫌額虐﹐虐待或者不當對待的案件﹐都是因為監視設備﹐因為人為操作不當或是損害﹐總計就有10件﹐例行經查發現毀損現其改善的也有31件﹐監視器影像的人為消失﹐已經成為脫穎中心幼兒保護的一個嚴重漏洞﹐"},{"start":11473.343,"end":11488.611,"text":"因此除了目前本來就有規定托嬰中心必須要強制裝設監視器外家瑜也認為應該要把攝錄影像上傳雲端備份的異地保存機制才能夠有效的防堵虐嬰再發生因此家瑜提案修正而授權法"},{"start":11489.451,"end":11511.026,"text":"要求將所有托嬰中心：無論公司力：都應該要把監視器畫面上傳到政府的雲端：而社家署也依循著嘉峪的建議：正式的編列了2.6億的預算：預計明年全國的托嬰中心攝錄影像：都會透過雲端來處理：並且沿應明定於未來的托育專法："},{"start":11511.886,"end":11538.379,"text":"在人口負成長的現在﹐我們局需透過各種政策的配合﹐提供更友善的照顧環境﹐讓民眾能夠更放心的生兒育女托嬰中心的監視器﹐異地保存的機制﹐就是在確保幼兒的安全﹐讓民眾能夠更放心的托育子女﹐的一個重要的政策家瑜非常感謝﹐各位委員在今天﹐共同支持社家署所提出來的預算案﹐"},{"start":11539.82,"end":11549.888,"text":"讓全國托嬰中心的影像．能夠異地備份政策．可以在明年來正式的落實．讓民眾不用擔心額虐案件．求助無門謝謝謝謝高委員接下來請吳委員新迎發言"},{"start":11586.297,"end":11609.77,"text":"去年11月就職至今12月19日我經過了412天只剩約四分之一的時間我從立法院新手成為未還委員的召委今年2月經過生產及產假的過程這個會期又遭到提前停會時間很短暫的狀況我仍然在立法院舉辦了英文"},{"start":11610.69,"end":11626.683,"text":"電子簽章、CBAM、三談座談會﹐並召開了CFC組織改造2.0﹐綠色金融藍圖﹐以及兩場數位醫療等五場公聽會﹐並代表立法院到歐盟議會公聽會為臺灣發聲﹐歐盟議會今年12月13日也公認說﹐通過與臺灣簽雙項貿易協定﹐"},{"start":11635.97,"end":11649.989,"text":"整體來說﹐我關注的財政環境醫療三永續﹐也提出了中央銀行法﹐貨物稅條例﹐碳稅條例﹐投資投信投顧的法﹐氣候變遷因應法﹐海保法﹐"},{"start":11651.851,"end":11665.22,"text":"《環資組織法》、《身心障礙權益保障法》、《人工生殖法》、《數位醫療發展條例各資法》、《電子簽章法》、《自動安全法》、《人工智慧發展》等15個創新及改變的法案"},{"start":11666.381,"end":11692.435,"text":"這一年的時間過得很快感謝黨團以及各委員們的共同努力社會的改進是滾動性必須持續進行的也很開心在這400多天當中我當民間的業界的經驗以及社會的資助作為結合今天的結束不代表是停止我會持續前進為我們下一代的永續努力創造台灣的繁榮以及和平謝謝大家"},{"start":11699.353,"end":11702.468,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員 接下來請李委員得委發言"},{"start":11713.271,"end":11736.039,"text":"主席、游院長、各位立委同仁、各位媒體朋友我想113年度中央政府總預算今天通過稅出編列了2兆8,817億8,209萬5千元這是蔡英文總統任期的最後一年的預算但也達到歷史的新高點"},{"start":11737.179,"end":11744.944,"text":"本席要求政府要尊潔支出以符合經濟局勢及支出的必要性避免再留子孫"},{"start":11746.434,"end":11768.464,"text":"蔡英文總統上任7年以來﹐把未來幾年可以舉債的額度都用掉﹐無論2024年誰當選總統﹐面對的都是收支差短的財政狀況﹐連省紀部也特別提出政府特別預算狂舉債﹐中央要檢討施政支出的必要性﹐"},{"start":11770.044,"end":11797.33,"text":"還說請行政院督促全責機關妥善運用政府的預算資源確保財政永續發展本席認為行政院有必要檢討改進而在總預算的稅出個案裡面國防預算大幅增加的支出即將追上經濟發展的支出本席認為這是另外一個警訊可能危及台灣的經濟發展值得特別關注"},{"start":11797.93,"end":11816.142,"text":"另外財政收支化分法讓中央掌握地方財源分配權導致地方政府必須養中央鼻息的失衡現象以至於中央請客地方買單的爭議層出不窮當然希望下一屆能夠順利的修正最後"},{"start":11817.523,"end":11843.158,"text":"今天也是本屆最後一次的會議今天即將結束德威也期盼下一屆的立法院要從老百姓的角度來思考人民真正的需求德威回首來時路謝謝每一位好朋友的支持與鼓勵期盼大家為中華民國為台灣更美好的明天而努力報告議會現在處理"},{"start":11846.069,"end":11856.377,"text":"報告委員 登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢現在處理朝野黨團協商結論請議事人員宣讀立法院黨團協商結論時間112年12月14日星期四下午23時分地點紅樓302會議室決定事項一自113年1月1日起本院每一位立法委員"},{"start":11869.753,"end":11870.033,"text":"公務委員會審查報告"},{"start":11894.399,"end":11917.288,"text":"114,750元主持人 游錫坤 蔡其昌行政代表 柯建民 劉世芳 莊瑞雄 洪勝翰 曾明中 謝一鳳李德維 溫玉霞 邱承遠 張捷度 賴香菱 邱顯智陳佳華 王婉玉 宣讀完畢請問院會對以上朝野黨團協商結論有沒有異議沒有沒有異議那透過112年12月14日朝野黨團協商結論今決定如下"},{"start":11924.998,"end":11936.833,"text":"自113年1月1日起本院每一立法委員及各黨團公會助理及助理費增加4%每月各為45萬8990元及"},{"start":11941.799,"end":11942.499,"text":"現在進行討論事項第14案"},{"start":11970.225,"end":11975.452,"text":"黃屋稅條例部分條文修正草案．請先讀審查報告"},{"start":11976.65,"end":12001.753,"text":"本院財政委員會於110年4月29日及5月3日﹐分別舉行全體委員會議審查本案﹐會議由曾召集委員明宗擔任主席﹐另於同年11月3日舉行全體委員會議進行審查﹐會議由李召集委員貴明擔任主席﹐在於112年10月18日及11月16日﹐舉行全體委員會議進行審查﹐會議由沈召集委員發會擔任主席﹐"},{"start":12002.673,"end":12029.595,"text":"財政部司務長金榮等分別應邀列席說明備詢與或願於聽取說明、詢答及大體討論後．對法案進行審查．經在場委員充分溝通及協商．將全案審查完略委員經決議並按理據審查報告提報院會．本案與院會進行要讀前需交由黨團協商．院會討論本案時．由省召集委員發會補充說明宣讀完畢請召集委員、省委員發會補充說明"},{"start":12032.707,"end":12041.026,"text":"沒有補充說明本案均審查會決議需交由黨團協商報告委員會本案現在已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":12043.931,"end":12071.953,"text":"議法院黨團協商結論時間112年12月18日星期一上午10時11分至11時15分地點紅樓302會議室協商主題防護稅條例修正查案協商結論一第9條第11條條文含立法說明及第25條立法說明如後附協商內容二第5條時代力量黨團提案增訂第5條之一第6條保留送院會處理三"},{"start":12072.512,"end":12091.079,"text":"其餘均照審查會審查結果通過是本案院會進行處理時協商通過部分宣讀後均予以通過保留部分均佔保留保留部分院會進行處理前由各黨團推敗一人依時代立案黨團臺灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團民進黨黨團順序輪流發言每人發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢後各該保留條文均不再發言"},{"start":12101.267,"end":12123.44,"text":"並依上開黨團順序進行各保留條文黨團版本資質處理協商主持人 游錫均 蔡吉昌協商代表 柯建銘 劉世芳 莊瑞雄 曾銘忠 謝一鳳 李德維費鴻泰 張其路 邱承遠 賴香林 邱顯智 陳焦華 黃婉玉宣讀完畢請問會對以上協商結論有沒有意義沒有意義那本案主條討論的時候進一協商結論處理"},{"start":12127.213,"end":12154.225,"text":"房屋稅條例第一條、第二條、第三條均違處現行條文請先讀第四條第四條房屋稅向房屋所有人徵收之以土地設定地上全之使用全房屋向該使用全人徵收之設有點全者向點全人徵收之共有房屋向共有人徵收之由共有人推定一人繳納其部為推定者由先住人或使用人代繳"},{"start":12155.405,"end":12173.92,"text":"前項代繳之房屋稅﹐在其應負擔部分以外之稅款﹐對於其他共用人有求償權第一項﹐所有人使用權人或典權人住址不明﹐或非居住房屋所在地者﹐應由管理人或現住人繳納之如屬出租﹐應由曾住人負責代繳抵扣房租"},{"start":12174.6,"end":12203.585,"text":"未辦建物所有權第一次登記且所有人不明之房屋其房屋稅向使用執照所在起照人徵收之無使用執照者向建造執照所在起照人徵收之無建造執照者向現住人或管理人徵收之房屋為信託財產者與信託關係存續中以收託人為房屋稅徵納稅一五人收託人為二人以上者准用第一項有關共有房屋之規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":12204.673,"end":12221.888,"text":"照審查會條文通過第五條保留時代力量黨團提案增訂第五條之一保留委員江永昌等提案第六條不予採納第六條保留請宣讀增訂第六條之一"},{"start":12224.529,"end":12250.243,"text":"6.房屋稅以每年2月末日為納稅義務基準日由當地主管基準機關按房屋稅及資料核定與每年5月1日起至5月31日址一次徵收其課稅所屬期間為上一年7月1日起至當年6月30日址新增增建或改建房屋與當其建造完成者按月比例計課未滿1個月者不計當其差主者亦同"},{"start":12250.863,"end":12267.64,"text":"每年3月1日起至6月30日至新建增進或改建完成之房屋該期間之房屋稅併入次期課徵上一年7月1日起至當年2月末日至拆除之房屋其尚未拆除期間之當期房屋稅仍應課徵宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請先讀第7條"},{"start":12271.414,"end":12293.735,"text":"第7條納稅義務人應於房屋建造完成之日﹐期算30日內﹐檢附有關文件﹐向當地主管基準機關﹐申報房屋稅及有關事項及使用情形﹐其有增建、改建或移轉成點時﹐一同房屋使用情形變更﹐除之稅額增加納稅義務人應於變更之次﹐其房屋稅開徵40日以前﹐"},{"start":12294.515,"end":12320.051,"text":"向當地主管基層機關申報外應於每期開捐40日以前申報經核定後使用前行未再變更者以後免再申報房屋使用前行變更至稅額減少與其申報者自申報之次期開始適用至稅額增加者自變更之次期開始適用與其申報或未申報者一同宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過"},{"start":12320.987,"end":12323.05,"text":"委員江永昌等提案第9條不予採納請宣讀第9條"},{"start":12326.55,"end":12355.155,"text":"第9條本條例所定不動產平價委員會由直強市或縣市政府組織之其組織及運作辦法由財政部定之前向委員會委員由相關行政機關代表具有不動產工匠頭目或結構工程建築多系計畫專長之專家學者或屬該等領域之民間團體代表組成其中專家學者及民間團體代表不得少於委員總數二分之一任意競免委員不得少於委員總數三分之一宣讀完畢"},{"start":12355.888,"end":12360.874,"text":"照學商條文通過委員江永昌等提案第11條不予採納請先讀第11條"},{"start":12363.53,"end":12391.625,"text":"第11條 房屋標準價格由不動產評價委員會﹐依據下列事項分別評定﹐並由石牆市縣市政府公告之一﹐按各種建造材料所建房屋﹐區分種類及等級﹐二﹐各類房屋正在用年數及折扣標準﹐三﹐按房屋所處街道村裡之﹐商業交通情形及房屋之供求概況﹐並比較各該不同地段實價登錄之﹐不動產交易價格減除土地價格部分﹐訂定標準"},{"start":12392.145,"end":12407.85,"text":"前項服務標準價格每3年重新評定一次並因依其耐用年數予以折舊按年遞減其價格宣讀完畢照協商條文通過第12條刪除委員江永昌等提案第14條第15條均不予採納請先讀第15條"},{"start":12412.659,"end":12424.831,"text":"第15條私有房屋有下列期刑之一者免徵房屋稅一、業境另案之私立學校及學術研究機構﹐完全財政法人登記者其公、校舍或辦公使用之自用房屋"},{"start":12425.836,"end":12452.923,"text":"二、業經立案之司令慈善救濟事業﹐不以營利為目的﹐完全財政法人登記者﹐其職階公辦理事業所使用之自有房屋三、專公祭祀用之宗祠宗教團體﹐公傳教佈道之教堂及寺廟﹐但已完全財政法人或寺廟登記﹐且房屋為其所有者為限四、無償公政府機關公用或公均用之房屋﹐"},{"start":12453.403,"end":12482.575,"text":"五、不以營利為目的﹐並經政府核准之公益社團﹐自由公辦公使用之房屋﹐但以同業、同鄉、同學或宗親社團﹐為受益對象者﹐除依公會法組成之公會﹐經由當地主管基準機關﹐報經直轄市縣市政府核准免徵外﹐不予免徵六、專攻飼養情畜植房社﹐培植農產品之溫室﹐稻敏育苗中心租業室﹐人工繁殖場中抽水機房社﹐"},{"start":12484.475,"end":12498.983,"text":"專攻農民自用之燻煙房、稻穀及茶葉烘乾機房、存放農機具、倉庫及堆肥設等房屋其受重大災害、毀損面積佔損棟面積五成以上必須修復使能使用之房屋"},{"start":12499.503,"end":12519.321,"text":"八、司法保護事業所有之房屋九、住家幼房屋限制在新台幣10萬元以下﹐屬自然人持有者﹐全國合計以三戶違憲但房屋標準價格如依第11條第二項規定重新評定時﹐按該重新評定時之標準價格增減程度調整之"},{"start":12520.081,"end":12540.413,"text":"調整金額以千元為單位為達千元者按千元計算使農會所有之倉庫專供糧剩機關儲存供糧金主管機關證明11.經目的事業主管機關許可設立之公益信託其受託人應該信託關係而取得之房屋直接供辦理公益活動使用"},{"start":12541.554,"end":12562.302,"text":"私有房屋有下列期刑之一者﹐其房屋稅減半徵收一、政府平價配售之平民住宅二、合法登記志工廠工直接生產使用之自有房屋三、農會所有之自用倉庫及檢驗場經主管機關證明四、受重大災害毀損面積佔整棟面積30以上不及五成之房屋"},{"start":12563.322,"end":12587.68,"text":"依定項第一款是第8款、第10款、第11款及前項規定解免房屋稅者應由納稅義務人與每期房屋稅開捐40日以前向當地主管基準機關申報與其申報者自申報者次期開始適用經核定後解免原因未變更者以後免再申報自然仍持有限制在新台幣10萬元以下之住家用房屋"},{"start":12588.18,"end":12607.246,"text":"於全國合計超過三戶時應於每期房屋稅開徵40日以前向當地主管競爭機關申報則定適用第一項第九款規定之房屋與其申報者自申報之次期開始免徵經核定後持有戶數未變更者以後免再申報"},{"start":12608.927,"end":12628.267,"text":"中華民國113年7月1日前自然人已持有限制在新台幣10萬元以下之住家用房屋與全國合計超過三戶者應於114年3月22日以前向當地主管基專機關申報則定適用第一項第9款規定之房屋藉其為申報者由當地主管基專機關為其從優則定"},{"start":12631.77,"end":12648.967,"text":"第一項第九款私有房屋持有戶數之認定前二項宣報程序前項則由從優則定之方式及其他相關市場指本法由財政部定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員江永昌等提案第17條第18條均不予採納請宣讀第18條"},{"start":12652.915,"end":12680.445,"text":"第18條納稅義務人位於稅單所在縣繳日期以內繳金應納稅還者應加增至納金宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員姜永昌等提案第20條、第21條均不予承納請先讀第24條第24條房屋稅徵收細則由各指向市及縣市政府以本條例分別訂定報財政部被查宣讀完畢"},{"start":12681.55,"end":12691.908,"text":"照審查會條文通過委員江永昌等提案第23條、第24條委員賴品瑜等提案增訂第24條之一均不予採納請先讀第25條"},{"start":12694.468,"end":12714.527,"text":"第25條本條例施行日期由行政院定之本條例修正條文自公佈日施行但中華民國90年6月20日修正公佈條文施行日期由行政院定之112年12月19日修正之第4條至第7條第12條及第15條自113年7月1日施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":12719.761,"end":12739.029,"text":"照審查會條文通過報告宴會非保留部分均已經處理完畢現在繼續處理保留部分一協商結論保留部分宴會進行處理前由各黨團推派一年一時代力量黨團、台灣民眾黨團、國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團順序輪流發言每年發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢後各該保留條文均不再發言"},{"start":12747.672,"end":12757.813,"text":"並依上開黨團順序進行各黨團版本之處理現在進行各黨團推派出代表發言人首先請邱委員顯智發言"},{"start":12770.285,"end":12777.654,"text":"院長各位同仁拖了好幾年終於今天要進行防護稅條例的修正三讀那對於"},{"start":12779.827,"end":12798.643,"text":"逼出空餘屋打擊投資的囤房稅的部分我們看到行政院的版本卻只是一個玩弄稅率數字的半套修法在這個版本中本來最高的稅率是3.6%只提高了1.2%到4.8%"},{"start":12802.998,"end":12820.871,"text":"而且針對其實將近有97%持有空屋數的人都是一到三戶的個人在這個版本裡面每戶只會被課徵多少稅只會被多課徵0.2%"},{"start":12825.134,"end":12851.755,"text":"所以即便是採取全國的總歸戶每個人最多如果算三戶的話最多被多課徵了百分之0.6的稅收0.6的稅率所以在這個情況之下怎麼能夠對於持有這個更多的空屋的人有所壓力然後呢"},{"start":12853.206,"end":12871.58,"text":"必須要到持有超過7戶的空屋的時候才會被課徵不過4.8%的最高稅率對於有益囤房的投資客不僅毫無進主的作用更是讓囤房的操作空間完全不會消失"},{"start":12872.381,"end":12896.046,"text":"更離譜的是對於住屋起造人財政部的稅率局局令人匪夷所思除了是從建商拿到使用執照才開始起算而且還要超過5年才對起造人可以最高的4.8%的稅率等於是說如果從預售屋販售開始算的話"},{"start":12897.026,"end":12908.533,"text":"是不是變相的讓建商可以安心的囤房至少7年7年間漸漸的提高價格並且慢慢的賣"},{"start":12910.336,"end":12937.041,"text":"那時代力量版團的版本非常清楚對於個人投資客不僅稅率上能夠有效的打擊逼出空餘屋對於建商的提案除了能夠鼓勵建商在足夠的時間內以正常的合理販售外也讓購物者更有更高的機會可以合理的房價購買有益並且有效的嚇阻故意囤房的建商兼顧買賣雙方的利益"},{"start":12940.679,"end":12962.479,"text":"對於黨團協商中其他三黨都不同意實力黨團的版本我們除了表達萬分的遺憾之外也再次向國人表示只有實力黨團才是唯一堅持初衷保護國人民好 謝謝邱委員接下來請張委員齊錄發言"},{"start":12972.011,"end":12983.095,"text":"院長各位我們委員我們國內的這個房價一路的這個飆漲這個房價所得比接近10倍那全國房貸負擔率也飆升至好41.19%創下歷史的這個紀錄"},{"start":12986.721,"end":13015.323,"text":"同時在2018到2022年間六都的房租每坪中位數的漲幅也遠比總計處的真實統計更為驚人許多的投資客大量湧入囤房炒房將視之為投機商品已經是造成整個房市的混亂居住的不正義但是我們也知道因為房屋稅屬於地方稅稅率的高低端看各地方政府的自治條例"},{"start":13016.226,"end":13042.174,"text":"也導致全國稅率的不統一 陷入中央地方高喊低收的困境而且房屋稅的公式是稅基乘稅率 稅基的評定又是地方權責稅基普遍過低跟市價差距遙遠的狀況也導致整個不管是調整房屋稅率的時候的困難甚至沒有政策的效果"},{"start":13042.874,"end":13057.574,"text":"那所以這個本黨團這邊就是主張應該有效的先當然以目前這個目前的囤房稅的版本我們只能夠提高這個稅率那而且我們本黨是要求是可以10%的這個重稅來降低自然人法人持有多房的這個誘因"},{"start":13059.059,"end":13078.084,"text":"那當然我們臺灣民眾黨長期關注這個住居的正義對臺灣這個高房價的這個問題囤房稅也只能說是一個開端而絕非終點事實上我們也並不滿意這一次由這個院版所提出來這個版本因為我們知道現在真正的這個問題如果只調整稅率而不調整稅基的話"},{"start":13078.644,"end":13096.184,"text":"其實是達不到政策的目標因此本黨團也已經提出這個中央囤房特別稅的這樣子的一個草案但是我們知道在這一屆國會可能已經沒有這個機會能夠通過所以如何讓這個稅率不統一還有稅基偏低這兩個大問題真正得到解決才是未來"},{"start":13097.679,"end":13119.829,"text":"在我們這一件工作上最重要所要達成的目標本黨團始終堅持駐居正義也一直列為本黨最重要的政策方針我們真實最終的目標是希望達成30政策包括第一就是實價的科稅第二就是時評制"},{"start":13120.709,"end":13138.512,"text":"第三個就是實際居住我們甚至可以低稅或免稅我想只有未來只有往這三個目標真正的去前進我們才能真正完成今天的只是一個開端的這樣的工作當然這一次的囤房稅雖然我們也只能是以所謂漸進式的修法"},{"start":13139.133,"end":13155.962,"text":"雖然我們不滿意現在院版的這樣子的一個這個版本但是為了能夠讓這個租居正義往前邁進我們還是先逐步的往前繼續前進謝謝大家好 謝謝張委員接下來請吳委員移頂發言"},{"start":13169.497,"end":13189.107,"text":"今天在這裡我們要修訂的是房屋稅其實也就是所謂的囤房稅依照內政部不動產資訊平台我們看到房價指數在今年已經創下了歷史的新高再從扁政府、馬政府、蔡政府分別來看的話扁政府8年增加我們的房價增加了23%"},{"start":13190.968,"end":13202.921,"text":"馬政府8年我們的房價增加了14%在蔡政府7年多期間我們的房價已經增加了高達95%非常非常的可觀"},{"start":13204.707,"end":13232.22,"text":"房屋稅其實就是屬身的屯房稅民間團體一直認為屯房稅是打成居住正義的一個很重要的一環其實我們這一屆從第一年開始第一個會期就不斷的在提出在野黨不斷的提出我們必須修訂房屋稅但是從財政部也好內政部也好給了千百萬個理由表示沒有辦法達成"},{"start":13233.18,"end":13235.021,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告"},{"start":13248.507,"end":13250.668,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告"},{"start":13274.235,"end":13293.017,"text":"其實聽起來4.8的稅率好像相當高了但是重點是在稅基是稅基過於低尤其是稅基離我們的房屋稅的稅基其實是公告限制那這個公告限制離市價實在是差距太遠了"},{"start":13293.638,"end":13322.243,"text":"那在法案審查的過程我們不斷的詢問財政部到底怎麼解決這個問題財政部也是表示他們會持續督促但是並沒有辦法提出一個具體的方案來所以也就是說財政部就呼嚨過去了我們很開心這修法是實現居住正義跨出了一步但是很遺憾的是這一步真的是太小一步了"},{"start":13325.606,"end":13326.547,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員接下來請沈委員發會花言"},{"start":13353.834,"end":13374.954,"text":"各位委員今天是本屆本屆院會的最後一天也是一個意義非凡的日子防護稅條例的囤房稅跟這個跟下一案這個所得稅有關房租扣除的部分本期在這裡衷心期望能夠在稍後完成三讀的立法以避免這個法案不連續必須重新再來過的遺憾"},{"start":13376.796,"end":13388.231,"text":"這次防護稅條例的修正重點大概有三個第一個就是我們將這個單一自住的部分我們降低稅率第二個就是我們如果你是多屋空置的部分我們全國歸戶全數累進提高稅率"},{"start":13391.311,"end":13417.589,"text":"第三我們在房屋如果你是房屋的出租你達到申報租金的標準那麼我們在這個部分我們也讓你的付稅能夠採取比較低的稅率那這樣子的做法呢能夠讓這個我們這個大家討論已久的這個囤房稅踏出了第一步這個部分可以說是意義非凡在本屆的這個我們在本屆的立院整個過程裡面"},{"start":13418.342,"end":13443.131,"text":"我們針對本屆委員大家共同的努力針對這個健全房地市產落實居住正義的部分這個我們針對國內預售屋的這個紅單的炒作還有或者是個人藉由公司或分割房屋來避稅等等課題我們事實上我們之前都已經通過了房地合一2.0的這個條例以及平均地點條例等修正草案三如通過"},{"start":13444.478,"end":13465.029,"text":"現在更進一步我們跨出了囤房稅的第一步我們這囤房稅大家討論已經相當久了我們這個過程中當然有相當多的困難包括最主要就是說這個房屋稅它在憲法定例它就是一個地方的稅地方稅的部分我們要用中央立法來節制第一個在立法基礎上面我們必須克服"},{"start":13465.569,"end":13485.157,"text":"另外有關這個囤房的定義或者是未來的稅率我們的稅基甚至是全國總歸戶這樣的技術問題等等都需要一步一步的克服因此在這段時間裡面我們中央主管機關採取循序漸進的方式跟地方政府溝通那麼跟這個社會各界對話"},{"start":13486.557,"end":13515.031,"text":"提出了這個政院的版本在今年10月提送了我們立法院來審議我們財政委員會也非常大家非常的認真在審查預算之餘我們也通過協商了將這個法案送到今天院會來刪讀我們在這裡本席衷心期盼並呼籲各黨團、各位委員大家能夠審視並且支持我們政院的版本能夠讓這個回歸社會對於居住正義的期待"},{"start":13516.107,"end":13525.989,"text":"在這個部分我們再次感謝各位委員在這個修正各黨各派大家在修正防護罪條例過程中的努力我們毫不遲疑我們一路邁向前謝謝大家好 謝謝沈委員報告委員會各黨推派委員都已經發言完畢現在進行保留條文之處理"},{"start":13545.85,"end":13551.962,"text":"請先讀院會所說修正動議條文其餘提案條文均列入公報紀錄第5條請先讀條文"},{"start":13556.275,"end":13581.24,"text":"時代力量黨團修憲動議第5條房屋稅依房屋限制按下列稅率可增值依住家用房屋依單一公自住者且房屋限制在一定金額以下者為其房屋限制1%房屋限制一定金額由這家市及縣市政府訂定報財政部被查其他公自住或公益出租人出租使用者為其房屋限制1.2%"},{"start":13583.74,"end":13610.345,"text":"3、扣除前、二幕後之未提供住家用之房屋一、納稅一物人之全國持有戶數在二戶以下者最低不得少於其房屋限值2.44%最高不得超過3.6%在三戶以上、四戶以下者最低不得少於其房屋限值3.6%最高不得超過4.8%在五戶以上、六戶以下者最低不得少於房屋限值4.8%最高不得超過6%"},{"start":13612.765,"end":13631.001,"text":"在7戶以上者﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值6%﹐最高不得超過10%﹐但其造人持有代銷售之住家用房屋與其徵房屋稅一年內未出售者﹐按其房屋限值1.5克徵﹐超過一年未出售者﹐按其房屋限值4.8克徵"},{"start":13634.161,"end":13654.88,"text":"二、非住家用房屋供營業、私人醫院、診所或自由職業事務所使用者最低不得少於其房屋限值3%﹐最高不得超過5%供人民團體等非營業使用者最低不得少於其房屋限值1.5%﹐最高不得超過2.5%"},{"start":13657.081,"end":13663.245,"text":"1.未違使用者最低不得少於其房屋限值5%,最高不得超過8%2."},{"start":13663.245,"end":13675.113,"text":"房屋同時作住家及非住家用者,應以實際使用面積分別按住家用或非住家用水率課徵房屋稅,但非住家用者"},{"start":13677.394,"end":13688.459,"text":"課稅面積最低不得少於全部面積六分之一前項第一款諜目其他公製作及公益出租人出租使用之認定標準由財政部定之"},{"start":13690.28,"end":13710.558,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團修正動議第5條房屋稅依房屋限制按下列稅率可增值依住家用房屋依單一房屋自住者最低不得少於房屋限制0.6%最高不得超過1.2%而第5戶至第3戶最低不得少於房屋限制1.5%最高不得超過3.6%"},{"start":13713.159,"end":13725.442,"text":"3.第4戶至第5戶最低不得少於防污限值3.6%最高不得超過4.8%4.第6戶至第7戶最低不得少於防污限值6%最高不得超過7.2%5.第8戶至第9戶最低不得少於防污限值7.2%最高不得超過8.4%6.第10戶以上為期防污限值10%"},{"start":13737.625,"end":13753.333,"text":"2、非住家用房屋供營業私人醫院、診所或自由職業事務所使用者最低不得少於其房屋限值3%最高不得超過5%供人民團體等非營業使用者最低不得少於其房屋限值1.5%"},{"start":13755.134,"end":13780.197,"text":"最高不得超過2.5%三、房屋同時作住家及非住家用者應以實際使用面積分別按住家用或非住家用稅率課升房屋稅但非住家用者課稅面積不得少於全部面積六分之一所有全人持有房屋作為公益出租使用者得不進入前項戶數計算其稅率為其房屋限值1.2%"},{"start":13781.818,"end":13796.116,"text":"其造人持有代銷售之住家用房屋與其課房屋稅一年內為出售者按其房屋限值1.5%課徵第二項公益出租人出租使用之認定標準由財政部定之"},{"start":13798.004,"end":13816.269,"text":"國民黨黨團修正動議第5條房屋稅依房屋限值案下列稅率課程之一住家用房屋供自住或供應出租人出租使用者為其房屋限值1.2%其他供住家用者最低不得省於其房屋限值1.5%最高不得超過5%"},{"start":13817.669,"end":13834.434,"text":"二、非住家用房屋供營業私人醫院、診所或自由職業事務所使用者最低不得少於其房屋限值3%最高不得超過5%供人民團體等非營業使用者最低不得少於其房屋限值1.5%最高不得超過2.5%"},{"start":13836.295,"end":13855.071,"text":"三、房屋同時做住家及非住家用者應以實際使用面積分別按住家用或非住家用稅率課徵房屋稅但非住家用者課稅面積最低不得少於全部面積六分之一前項第一款工製作及供應出租人出租使用之認定標準由財政部定之"},{"start":13856.192,"end":13879.984,"text":"各地方政府因應全國家庭總歸戶資料認定房屋持有數是所有全人持有房屋戶數訂定差別稅率或累計稅率存有第四戶房屋以上者其稅率不受低降值限制且最低不得少於其房屋限制5%但其在無人持有代銷售之住家用房屋與其客房屋稅一定期間內未出售者不再次限"},{"start":13881.485,"end":13898.197,"text":"前項單數是一定期間不得於3年其一定期間之認定及適用稅率由各地方政府定之第三項只有戶數認定標準第四戶以上之房屋稅率及其他應遵循事項之辦法由財政部會商各地方政府定之"},{"start":13899.497,"end":13913.406,"text":"民進黨黨團修正動議第5條房屋稅依房屋限值按下列稅率可增值依住家用房屋依供自住公益出租人出租使用或以土地設定地上全資使用權房屋"},{"start":13913.906,"end":13930.02,"text":"並供該使用權人自住使用者為其房屋限制1.2%但本人配偶及未成年子女與全國僅持有一戶房屋供自住且房屋限制在一定金額以下者為其房屋限制1%"},{"start":13931.321,"end":13947.482,"text":"二、前目以外﹐出租申報租賃所得﹐達所得稅法第14條第一項第5類規定之﹐當地一般租金標準者或繼承取得之共有房屋﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值1.5%﹐最高不得超過2.4%"},{"start":13949.745,"end":13969.042,"text":"其造人持有使用執照所在用途為住家用之代銷售房屋與其客房屋稅2年內﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值2%﹐最高不得超過3.6%其他住家用房屋﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值2%﹐最高不得超過4.8%"},{"start":13971.944,"end":13987.303,"text":"而非住家用房屋、公營業、私人醫院診所或自由職業事務所使用者﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值3%﹐最高不得超過5%公人民團體等非營業使用者﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值1.5%﹐最高不得超過2.5%"},{"start":13990.587,"end":14018.245,"text":"三、房屋同時做住家及非住家用者﹐應以實際使用面積﹐分別按住家用或非住家用稅率﹐課徵房屋稅﹐但非住家用者﹐課稅面積﹐最低不得少於全部面積六分之一﹐居家市及縣市政府﹐應依前項第一款第二幕是第四幕規定﹐按各該幕納稅義務人﹐全國總持有因稅房屋戶數﹐或其他合理選項﹐分別訂定差別稅率﹐"},{"start":14018.945,"end":14032.699,"text":"那是義務人持有作用於指向市及縣市之各該目應稅房屋應分批案期全國總持有戶數依房屋所在地指向市縣市政府訂定之相應稅率課徵房屋稅"},{"start":14034.821,"end":14054.982,"text":"依前二項規定計算房屋戶數時房屋為信託財產者與信託關係存續中應改歸戶委託人與其持有低效低款規定之房屋分別合併計算戶數但信託利益之受益人為非委託人且符合下列的款規定者應改歸戶受益人"},{"start":14056.311,"end":14071.484,"text":"一、收益人已確定並享有全部信託利益二、委託人為保留便跟收益人之權利第一項第一款第一目供自住使用之住家用房屋房屋所有人或使用權人之本人配有或直系親屬應與該屋半均"},{"start":14073.945,"end":14089.036,"text":"戶籍登記且無出租或供應業情形其他供自住及供應出租人出租使用之要件及認定之標準與前三項房屋戶數之計算第二項合理需要之認定及其他相關事項之辦法由財政部定之"},{"start":14089.996,"end":14090.476,"text":"宣讀完畢現在"},{"start":14119.708,"end":14141.357,"text":"現在表決時代力量黨團修正動議條文現有民進黨黨團及時代力量黨團要求具備表決具備表決時間應用中現在開始範委員雲、吳委員施堯聲明對上午表決以民進黨黨團一件一事列入公報記錄"},{"start":14142.97,"end":14148.779,"text":"政委員鄭全聲明對上午表決以國民黨黨團意見一致列出公報記錄"},{"start":14201.772,"end":14206.795,"text":"表決結果 初期86件 贊成3件 反對57件 棄權26件 贊成則少數時代力量黨團修正動議條文不通過現在表決 台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文現有民進黨黨團要求基本表決 基本表決時間運動現在開始"},{"start":14295.151,"end":14301.274,"text":"表決結果出席9、11年暫程6年反對57年7年28年暫程則少數台灣民眾黨黨團修正動議條文不通過現在表決國民黨黨團修正動議條文現有民進黨黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":14390.626,"end":14397.388,"text":"表決結果出席86人贊成29人反對57人棄權0人贊成左少數國民黨黨團修正動議條文不通過請問宴會編條照民進黨黨團修正動議條文通過有沒有意義沒有意義第5條"},{"start":14414.56,"end":14418.143,"text":"有異議有異議進行表決現在表決民進黨黨團修正統一條文現有民進黨黨團要求進行表決進行表決時間6時現在開始"},{"start":14438.353,"end":14447.621,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公報告"},{"start":14500.318,"end":14521.718,"text":"表決結果出席91人 贊成54人 反對3人 棄權34人 贊成多數 作以下宣告第5條 照民進黨黨團修正動議條文 通過現在進行時代力量黨團提案 增訂第5條之一 請先讀條文"},{"start":14523.181,"end":14549.057,"text":"時代力量老團提案第5條之一非自住之住家用房屋出租供他人居住且其租賃契約經公證人公證者或符合租賃市場發展及管理條例第17條規定之租賃住宅納稅用人得向當地主管基準機關提出濁減徵收申請於租賃期間依最低不得少於其房屋限制至1.2%最高不得超過1.8%徵收房屋稅"},{"start":14552.038,"end":14566.231,"text":"前項逐減徵收支、課稅集聚與徵收稅率﹐申請文件﹐調查核定與其他相關事項之本法由財政部定之﹐直轄市及縣市政府﹐就依前條第一項第一款第三目所徵收支房屋稅"},{"start":14567.412,"end":14590.179,"text":"應提撥至少半輸用與半離提供住宅貸款利息超額補貼及乘租住宅租金補貼且向補助之資格要件申請程序及相關辦法由各指轄市及縣市政府定之民進黨黨團修正動議不予增訂宣讀完畢現在表決"},{"start":14591.275,"end":14597.361,"text":"時代力量黨團修正動議條文現有民進黨黨團及時代力量黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":14615.913,"end":14625.205,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":14672.69,"end":14677.473,"text":"表決結果出席90人 贊成3人 反對54人 棄權33人 贊成則少數時代力量黨團修正動議條文不通過 作以下宣告 變條不予採納現在進行第6條 請先讀條文"},{"start":14691.707,"end":14710.062,"text":"時代力量黨團修憲動議第6條直轄市及縣市政府應視地方實際情形在第5條規定稅率範圍內應分別規定房屋稅徵收率提供當地民意機關通過報警或層轉財政部備案直轄市及縣市政府為依前項規定房屋稅徵收稅率者"},{"start":14712.564,"end":14729.878,"text":"依第5條分別鎖定稅率範圍之最低稅率課徵之民進黨黨團修正動議第6條直轄市及縣市政府在前條規定稅率範圍內定定之房屋稅徵收率應提經當地民意機關通過報財政部被查"},{"start":14730.798,"end":14752.464,"text":"中華民國113年7月1日以後直轄市及縣市政府各期開徵訪問稅已依前條第一項第一款第二項及第五項規定辦理且符合前條第六項所定期準則如仍有稅收實質淨損失與財政收支劃分法修正擴大中央統籌分配稅款規模之規定實行前"},{"start":14753.464,"end":14782.287,"text":"該期損失由中央政府補足之不受預算法第23條有關公債收入不得充經常支出之用之限制前項稅收實質淨損失之計算由財政部與直轄市及縣市政府協商定之中華民國113年7月1日以後直轄市及縣市政府各級開徵房屋稅為依前條第二項規定訂定差別稅率者應依前條第六項鎖定基準即可該期之房屋稅"},{"start":14783.127,"end":14791.95,"text":"宣讀完畢現在表決時代力量黨團修正統一條文現有民進黨黨團及時代力量黨團要求基本表決基本表決時間1分鐘現在開始"},{"start":14868.234,"end":14886.867,"text":"結果 初期91年 贊成3年 反對54年 去年34年 贊成多少數時代力量黨團修正統一條文不通過求院會 便條照民進黨黨團修正統一條文通過 有沒有異議好 沒有異議第6條 照民進黨黨團修正統一條文通過"},{"start":14892.611,"end":14894.653,"text":"全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有沒有異議沒有異議請先讀經過二讀之條文"},{"start":14903.459,"end":14929.518,"text":"第4條 房屋稅向房屋所有人徵收之﹐以土地設定地上權之使用權房屋﹐向該使用權人徵收之﹐設有點權者向點權人徵收之﹐共有房屋向共有人徵收之﹐由共有人推定人繳納﹐其部為推定者由先住人或使用人代繳前向代繳之房屋稅﹐在其應付單部分以外之稅款﹐對於其他共有人有求償權"},{"start":14930.559,"end":14959.429,"text":"第一項所有人使用權人或典權人住址不明或非居住房屋所在地者應由管理人或先住人繳納之如屬出租應由承租人負責代繳抵扣房租未辦建物所有權第一次登記且所有人不明之房屋其房屋稅項使用執照所在其造人徵收之無使用執照者向建造執照所在其造人徵收之無建造執照者向先住人或管理人徵收之"},{"start":14960.329,"end":14972.406,"text":"防務為信託財產者與信託關係存續中以受託人為防務稅之納稅義務人受託人為二人以上者准用第一項有關共有防務之規定"},{"start":14975.939,"end":15002.371,"text":"第5條房屋稅依房屋限值按下列稅率可增值依住家用房屋依供自住工業出租人出租使用會以土地設定地上全資使用權房屋並供該使用權人自住使用者為其房屋限值1.2%但本人配合及未成年子女與全國僅持有一戶房屋供自住且房屋限值在一定金額以下者為其房屋限值1%"},{"start":15003.912,"end":15018.877,"text":"二、前目以外出租申報租賃所得﹐答所得稅法第14條第一項第五款規定之當地一般租金標準者或繼承取得之共有房屋﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值1.5%﹐最高不得超過2.4%"},{"start":15021.798,"end":15041.149,"text":"3、其贈人持有使用執照所在用途為住家用之代銷售房屋與其客房屋稅2年內﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值2%﹐最高不得超過3.6%4、其他住家用房屋﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值2%﹐最高不得超過4.8%"},{"start":15044.13,"end":15068.685,"text":"2、非住家用房屋供營業、私人醫院、診所或自由職業事務所使用者﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值3%﹐最高不得超過5%供人民團體等非營業使用者﹐最低不得少於其房屋限值1.5%﹐最高不得超過2.5%3、房屋同時做住家及非住家用者﹐"},{"start":15070.366,"end":15087.263,"text":"應以實際使用面積分別按住家用或非住家用稅率課徵房屋稅但非住家用者課稅面積不得少於全部面積六分之一指向市及縣市政府應依前項第一款第二目至第四目規定"},{"start":15088.704,"end":15110.094,"text":"案各該目納稅義務人全國總持有應稅房屋戶數或其他合理需要分別訂定差別稅率納稅義務人持有坐落於直轄市及縣市之各該目應稅房屋應分別案及全國總持有戶數依房屋所在地直轄市縣市政府訂定之相應稅率課徵房屋稅"},{"start":15111.014,"end":15133.775,"text":"一、前二項規定計算房屋戶數時﹐房屋為信託財產者﹐於信託關係程序中應改歸戶委託人﹐與其只有第一項第一款規定之房屋﹐分別合併計算戶數﹐但信託利益之受益人為非委託人﹐且符合項列掛款規定者﹐應改歸戶受益人"},{"start":15134.415,"end":15142.066,"text":"一、受益人已確定並享有全部信託利益二、委託人為保留變更受益人之權利"},{"start":15143.652,"end":15168.853,"text":"第一項第一款第一目供自住使用之住家用房屋﹐房屋所有人或使用權人之本人﹐配偶或直系親屬﹐應與該屋半居戶及登記﹐且無出租或供應業情形﹐其他供自住及供應出租人﹐出租使用之要件及認定之標準﹐與前三項房屋戶數之計算﹐第二項合理需要之認定﹐及其他相關事項之辦法有財政不定之"},{"start":15169.854,"end":15195.729,"text":"第一項第一款第一目但書規定防務限制一定金額之自治法規由直轄市及縣市政府訂定報財政部被查第一項第一款第一目但書規定防務限制一定金額第二項差別稅率之級距級距數及各級距稅率之基準由財政部公告之直轄市及縣市政府得參考該基準訂定之"},{"start":15199.383,"end":15224.918,"text":"第6條 直轄市及縣市政府在前條規定稅率範圍內定定之房屋稅徵收率應提經當地民營機關通過報財宣布被查中華民國113年7月1日以後直轄市及縣市政府各期開徵房屋稅已依前條第一項第一款第二項及第五項規定辦理且符合前條第六項所定期準則"},{"start":15225.738,"end":15254.263,"text":"如仍有稅收實質淨損失與財政收支劃分法修正擴大中央統籌分配稅款規模之規定實行前該級損失由中央政府補足之《補償預算法》第23條有關公債收入不得從經常支出之用之限制前項稅收實質淨損失之計算由財政部與直轄市及縣市政府協商定之中華民國113年7月1日以後"},{"start":15255.203,"end":15265.903,"text":"指向市及縣市政府各級開支防務稅為依前條第二項規定定定差別稅例中依依前條第六項鎖定基準即可該期之防務稅"},{"start":15270.097,"end":15286.517,"text":"第6條之一緩衛稅以每年2月末日為納稅義務期準日由當地主管基準機關按緩衛稅及資料核定於每年5月1日起至5月31日只一次徵收其課稅所屬期間為上一年"},{"start":15287.377,"end":15302.271,"text":"7月1日起至當年6月30日至新建增建或改建房屋與當期建造完成者按月比例即可未滿1個月者不計當期拆除者亦同每年3月1日起至6月30日至"},{"start":15302.731,"end":15316.362,"text":"新建、增進或改建完成之房屋該期間之房屋稅併入次期課徵上一年7月1日起至當年2月末日只拆除之房屋其尚未拆除期間之當期房屋稅仍應課徵"},{"start":15320.171,"end":15341.74,"text":"第7條納稅義務人亦與房屋建造完成之日起算30日內﹐檢附有關文件﹐向當地主管計政機關申報﹐房屋稅及有關事項及使用情形﹐其有增建改進或移轉成典時亦同房屋使用情形變更﹐處置稅額增加納稅義務人亦與變更之次期房屋稅﹐開徵40日以前﹐"},{"start":15343.701,"end":15367.259,"text":"像當地主委基金機關申報外應於每期開捐40日以前申報經核定後使用即行未再併更者以後免再申報房屋使用即行併更至稅額減少與其申報者自申報之次期開始適用至稅額增加者自併更之次期開始適用與其申報或未申報者一同"},{"start":15369.727,"end":15390.713,"text":"第9條本條例所定不動產平價委員會由直銷市或縣水政府組織之其組織及運作辦法由財政部定之且向委員會委員由相關行政機關代表具有不動產國家土木或結構工程建築都市計劃專長之專家學者或主幹等領域知名間團體代表組成"},{"start":15391.673,"end":15400.049,"text":"其中專家學者及民間團體代表不得少於委員總數二分之一任意性別委員不得少於委員總數三分之一"},{"start":15402.185,"end":15424.054,"text":"第11條﹐房屋標準價格由不動產評價委員會﹐依據下列事項分別評定﹐並有指甲設限是政府公告之﹐一﹐按各種建造材料所建房屋區分種類及等級﹐二﹐各類房屋之耐用年數及折價標準﹐三﹐按房屋所處街道村裡之商業交通情形﹐"},{"start":15424.554,"end":15445.38,"text":"其房屋之供求概況．並比較各該不同地段施加登錄之不動產交易價格．減除土地價格部分訂定標準才向房屋標準價格每3年重新評定一次．因依其耐用年數予以折舊按年地減其價格第12條 刪除"},{"start":15450.071,"end":15462.943,"text":"第15條私有房屋有下列且行之一者免徵房屋審．涅槃立案之私立學校及學術研究機構．完成財團法人登記者．供校舍或辦公使用之自有房屋"},{"start":15464.4,"end":15486.078,"text":"二、液晶立案之私立慈善救濟事業﹐不以營利為目的﹐完全財團法人登記者﹐其直接供辦理事業所使用之自用房屋三、專供祭祀用之宗祠宗教團體供傳教步道之教堂及寺廟﹐但已完成財團法人或寺廟登記﹐且房屋為其所有者違憲"},{"start":15487.379,"end":15511.075,"text":"四、無償供政府機關供用或供軍用之房屋五、不以營利為目的﹐並經政府核准之公益社團自用供辦公使用之房屋﹐但以同業同鄉同學或宗親社團為受益對象者﹐除依《工會法》組成之工會﹐經由當地主管基準機關報竟指霞是現世政府核准免徵外不予免徵"},{"start":15512.636,"end":15538.09,"text":"6.專攻飼養情畜之房舍培植農產品之溫室稻米育苗中心作業是人工繁殖場沖水機房舍專攻農民自用之熏煙房稻穀及茶葉烘乾機房存放農機具倉庫及堆肥設等房屋其受重大災害毀損面積占轉動面積五成以上必須修復使能使用之房屋"},{"start":15539.11,"end":15562.242,"text":"8、司法保護事業所有之房屋9、住家用房屋限制在新台幣10萬元以下屬自然人持有者全國合計以3戶為限但房屋標準價格如依第11條第2項規定重新評定時按該重新評定時之標準價格增減程度調整之調整金額以千元為單位未達千元者按千元計算"},{"start":15563.783,"end":15579.825,"text":"10、農會所有制倉庫專供糧證機關儲存供糧經主管機關證明11、經目的事業主管機關許可設立之公益信託﹐其受託人應該信託關係而取得之房屋﹐直接供辦理公益活動使用"},{"start":15580.866,"end":15603.285,"text":"四、有房屋有下列且行之一者及房屋稅減半徵收一、政府平價配售之平民住宅二、合法單建之工廠供直接生產使用之自用房屋三、農會所有之自用倉庫及檢驗場經主管機關證明四、受重大災害毀損面積佔整棟面積三成以上不及五成之房屋"},{"start":15604.846,"end":15624.308,"text":"一、第一項．一款是第8款．第10款．第11款．前項規定解免房屋稅者．應由納稅義務人與每期房屋稅．開捐40日以前．向當地主管基金機關申報．與其申報者自申報之次其開始適用．經合併後解免原因未變更者．以後免再申報"},{"start":15625.489,"end":15652.234,"text":"自然人持有限制在新台幣10萬元以下之住家用房屋與全國合計超過3戶時應與每期房屋稅開徵40日以前向當地主管基準機關申報則定適用第一項第9款規定之房屋與其申報者自申報之次期開始免徵經核定後持有戶數未變更者以後免再申報中華民國113年7月1日前"},{"start":15654.974,"end":15674.203,"text":"自然仍以持有限制在新台幣10萬元以下之住家用房屋與全國合計超過三戶者應於114年3月22日以前向當地主管基樽機關申報則定適用第一項第9款規定之房屋借其為申報者由當地主管基樽機關為其從優則定"},{"start":15677.765,"end":15703.346,"text":"第1項 第9會 私有房屋持有戶數之認定請按照申報程序 前項則由從由則定之方式及其他相關事項之辦法由財政部定之第18條 納稅義務仍未於稅單所在現繳日期以內繳金應納稅款者應加徵至納金"},{"start":15706.431,"end":15714.38,"text":"第24條 房屋稅徵收細則由各局下市及縣市政府﹐依本條例分別訂定﹐報財政部被查"},{"start":15717.301,"end":15735.536,"text":"第25條本條例施行日期由行政院定之本條例修正條文自公佈日施行但中華民國90年6月20日修正公佈條文施行日期由行政院定之112年12月19日修正之第4條至第7條第12條及第15條自113年7月1日施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":15747.802,"end":15769.377,"text":"三讀條文已經先讀完畢請問各位有沒有文書修正沒有沒有文書修正決議防污稅條例增訂第六條之一條文刪除第十二條條文並將第四條至第六條第七條、第九條、第十一條、第十五條"},{"start":15774.093,"end":15796.994,"text":"第18條、第24條及第25條條文修正通過現在處理院會所說之互代決議臺灣民眾黨黨團所提的互代決議共兩項請議事人員宣讀第一項互代決議之內容"},{"start":15799.124,"end":15824.516,"text":"在決議一本條例修正通過後中央政府應於6個月內依財政紀律法第6條規定就本案實施效益及成本稅收影響數財源籌措及配套措施等詳語言析向財政委員會提出書面報告宣讀完畢請問議員會有沒有異議沒有異議那決定就照案通過"},{"start":15826.553,"end":15844.583,"text":"請一事爺宣讀第二項互待決議之內容互待決議二 鑒於房屋稅條例之稅基過低的狀況下﹐令居住正義的推動前功盡棄﹐要求財政部﹐積極督促地方政府復時評定稅基 宣讀完畢"},{"start":15846.127,"end":15862.903,"text":"請問兩位有沒有異議好 沒有異議那決定就照案通過本案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘並截止登記我們首先請陳委員交罰發言"},{"start":15875.373,"end":15901.599,"text":"院長各位委員大家好在先前的房屋稅條例第9條中關於不動產平價委員會的成員規定是包含了當地民意機關代表然而不管是在直轄市或者是在各縣市皆已包含地方政府不同單位的官員所以若說要民意代表在委員會內的原因是代表民意那其實也不重要"},{"start":15903.027,"end":15922.557,"text":"此外﹐房屋評定限值與市價差異之問題﹐應該透過不動產評議委員會﹐來獲得專業與公正的解決﹐並使長期房屋持有成本過低的狀況﹐能有明顯的改善﹐並進而縮小市場操作的空間﹐"},{"start":15923.743,"end":15947.043,"text":"所以讓有自用住屋的民眾能夠以合理之價格購得房屋是很重要因此這一次實例所提出的房屋稅條例第9條修正案就是將地方民貸排除在不動產平價委員會增加並改由公正"},{"start":15947.523,"end":15950.264,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告"},{"start":15966.07,"end":15990.63,"text":"且任意性別委員不得少於委員總數的三分之一感謝各黨團支持實力的提案讓地方的不動產評價委員會能從此回歸專業化考量各方聲音來對於現在房屋持有成本偏低的長久問題能夠有效地解決"},{"start":15996.588,"end":16022.349,"text":"謝謝陳委員接下來請曾委員民眾發言謝謝院長屯房稅終於完成三讀屯房稅到底有沒有必要當然有必要這個是去年21號的報紙"},{"start":16025.472,"end":16044.876,"text":"房屋持有稅合理嗎?擁有91房大戶4年只有繳4萬塊當然不合理囤房的情況非常非常的嚴重有錢人囤房囤房囤房這是財政部的統計資料擁有3戶的有多少人?有19240人佔的比例是3.53佔的10戶以上有多少人?"},{"start":16056.121,"end":16077.893,"text":"一千六百零八戶各位想想看很多的年輕朋友買不起房子但是有錢人一直囤房一直囤房表示現行稅制有問題不合理所以我是立法院113位"},{"start":16080.481,"end":16104.932,"text":"少數及早最早提出囤房稅也就是所謂房屋稅第五條修正草案但是我跟惠用泰委員在茶友會混鬥了半天財政部說不願意就不願意他說歸戶我也有困難歸戶也有困難結果現在拿出來說歸戶沒有問題了歸戶沒有問題了"},{"start":16108.41,"end":16135.369,"text":"但是現在雖然通過稅率很重要4.8%很重要但是最重要一件事是課稅的基礎也就是課稅限制你假設課稅限制長期偏低那你稅率拉太高也達不到該有的政策效果所以除了這一次屯廊稅"},{"start":16137.366,"end":16155.12,"text":"把稅率提高以外這次改成最高4.8%我的版本是5%但是後來妥協的結果為支持民進黨版本稅率很重要但是稅基課稅的限制更重要所以這部分"},{"start":16156.465,"end":16183.244,"text":"我會在這裡要求財政部必須讓課稅的基礎慢慢能夠等同市價這樣才有辦法發揮屯廊稅該有的效果屯廊稅不是打擊房市 像捐錢房市那一方面可以增加稅收一方面也可以實現居住正義讓年輕朋友可以買到房子 謝謝"},{"start":16189.193,"end":16217.507,"text":"謝謝曾委員接下來請邱委員陳遠發言謝謝院長還有全體國人同胞感謝所有委員三讀同意通過房屋稅修正"},{"start":16218.956,"end":16247.396,"text":"面對國內房價持續飆漲政府卻遲遲拿不出對策而趁現在民氣可用政府仍然綁手綁腳提出的存房稅率仍然只是應付民意高房價的問題仍不能期待靠存房稅的修正、要到並除另外房屋稅屬於地方稅稅率高低完全取決於地方政府的自治條例不僅標準不一也陷入中央和地方高喊低收的困境"},{"start":16248.342,"end":16265.394,"text":"民眾黨長期關注居住正義我們認為實施全國歸戶囤房稅只是居住正義的開端而非終點未來民眾黨團仍然繼續努力推動中央特別囤房稅以解決現行制度稅率不統一的問題以及稅基普遍"},{"start":16266.354,"end":16268.395,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":16281.081,"end":16297.627,"text":"或是國民黨總統候選人所提出的1500萬首購全額貸的住房政策基本上大同小異仍然是要民眾在高房價的環境下搖緊牙關努力買房只會助長房價及房租無法落實居住正義的問題"},{"start":16299.777,"end":16313.815,"text":"買不起房非常痛苦但是如果要當一輩子的巫奴可能會更痛苦因此臺灣民眾黨針對對線居住正義提出三多例的政見包含大力蓋社會住宅大力改變稅制"},{"start":16315.339,"end":16342.434,"text":"大力補助租客以及房價30政策．包含實價課稅、實品制．以及房屋供實際居住者免稅的30政策．囤房者要課重稅．本黨團會持續在下一屆的立法院繼續努力．讓居住正義持續進步．居住正義必須從稅制改革．租屋市場透明化．以及社會宿宅的興建．來解決結構性的問題．"},{"start":16345.526,"end":16363.359,"text":"防護稅的通過只是一個起點未來要用更高位的中央囤房特別稅來去做全國一致性的統一居住生意努力的道路還很漫長需要你我一起努力最後再次感謝大家對本案的長期努力終於能夠推動"},{"start":16364.656,"end":16378.079,"text":"防護稅的修法通過刪讀能夠有效實施全國歸戶囤房稅的相關政策政策的核心在於執行力未來我們會嚴格監督本案的執行狀況感謝大家的支持 謝謝"},{"start":16389.609,"end":16399.485,"text":"王委員晚意發言王委員晚意發言王委員現在不在場我們接著請林委員處應發言"},{"start":16418.54,"end":16435.226,"text":"謝謝主席及立法院的同仁今天防護稅條例修正案三讀通過感謝朝野各黨團委員的高度共識本次的修法回應了民間對於居住正義的渴求也展現了執政黨對於居住正義的重視這一次防護稅條例修正提高了"},{"start":16435.626,"end":16461.262,"text":"多屋持有者的控銜持有成本也就是當名下有很多房屋的時候卻沒有出租或者是利用我們就會加重房屋稅的負擔從原本的3.6提高到4.8並要求各縣市政府都要做出相對應的調整相對於多屋者這一次我們還有另外一個修法的重點就是減輕全國僅持有一間房屋而且自租者那麼他的稅率從原本的1.2調降到1"},{"start":16464.284,"end":16483.946,"text":"也就是全國只有一間房子而且自己在做使用的就減出減輕其房屋稅的負擔達到合理化負擔的這樣一個目的居住正義是國人極為關心的議題民進黨執政之後一直為了居住正義保障居住錢而努力持續推出了包括新建社會住宅擴大租金補貼"},{"start":16484.827,"end":16503.596,"text":"修正租賃專法以及推動房地合一稅來打炒房修正平均條例地權以及選擇性的信用貸款的管制等等實質的措施逐步實現居住正義今天房屋稅條例的三讀是另外一個落實居住正義的里程碑"},{"start":16504.116,"end":16529.136,"text":"本席認為此次修法是落實居住正義的關鍵一步民進黨政府在居住正義這條路上已經完成了許多法律上面的修正未來我們還會繼續努力避免房屋集中在少數人的手上這樣的情況並鼓勵房屋有效的利用提高房屋市場的供需讓更多人以合理的房價能夠來合理的價格取得房屋謝謝"},{"start":16549.149,"end":16558.813,"text":"主席、有院長、各位委員剛才我們通過了防護稅的部分條例的修正草案"},{"start":16559.96,"end":16584.265,"text":"但是我們知道臺灣還是有很多需要努力的舉例我們年輕人的所得太低我們的貧富懸殊越來越大還有要落實真正的居住正義還有好大的一段路要走這都是值得我們立法院要繼續努力的地方待會兒我們會通過這個我們嬰幼兒的"},{"start":16589.733,"end":16595.455,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查"},{"start":16613.22,"end":16638.153,"text":"我們國家這是一個真正的憲政危機國安的危機我們要鼓勵大家多生小孩鼓勵大家多生小孩有很多的方向居如落實0到6歲國家養我們要把嬰兒特別扣除由5歲延長到6歲"},{"start":16639.485,"end":16653.164,"text":"我們要特別構圖從12萬調高到15萬我們要讓牌幅把它拿掉鼓勵大家生小孩增加日後的勞動力以及繳稅的人口"},{"start":16654.872,"end":16655.152,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝惠委員"},{"start":16685.302,"end":16709.012,"text":"報告 院會登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢蔡委員異於聲明對本日表決以民進黨黨團一件一事列入公報記錄現在我們來進行討論事項第15案及第16案所得稅法第17條條文修正草案兩案合併討論請先讀審查報告兩件"},{"start":16712.484,"end":16731.99,"text":"審查報告一本院財政委員會於109年4月13日及112年11月22日分別舉行全英委員會議審查本案會議各有賴召集委員世保及費召集委員宏泰擔任主席財政部蘇牧長金榮等分別應邀列席說明備詢"},{"start":16733.851,"end":16753.485,"text":"與會委員於聽取說明﹑詢答及大體討論後﹐全級對法案進行討論﹐經在場委員充分溝通及寫商﹐後將全案審查完略﹐原金決議﹐並按理據審查報告提報院會﹐本案與院會進行二讀前﹐需交由黨團寫商﹐院會討論本案時﹐由非教級委員洪泰補充說明"},{"start":16754.565,"end":16773.969,"text":"審查報告二本院財政委員會於111年5月19日及112年11月27日分別舉行全體委員會議審查本案會議皆由省召集委員發會擔任主席財政部蘇務長建榮等分別應邀列行說明備詢與會員與聽取說明詢答及大體討論後選舉對法案進行討論經在場委員充分溝通及協商後將全案審查完略"},{"start":16781.79,"end":16804.537,"text":"原請權益並按領序審查報告提報院會本案與院會進行二讀前需交由黨團寫生院會討論本案時由沈召集委員發會補充說明宣讀完畢先請召集委員、會委員洪泰補充說明沒有補充說明繼續請召集委員、沈委員發會補充說明"},{"start":16807.586,"end":16820.053,"text":"沒有補充說明以上兩案均經審查會決議需交由黨團協商報告委員會編兩案現在已經完成協商請先讀協商結論"},{"start":16823.991,"end":16852.12,"text":"議法院黨團協商結論時間112年12月18日星期一上午11時15分至12時9分地點紅樓302會議室協商主題所得稅法第17條條文修正草案協商結論上述二案院會併案處理第17條照協商內容含說明通過如後付協商主持人游錫坤蔡其昌協商代表柯建民、劉思芳、莊瑞雄、曾明忠、謝一鳳、李德維、費鴻泰、鄭天才、張其路"},{"start":16852.68,"end":16869.026,"text":"邱承遠、賴香寧、邱顯智、陳佳華、王婉玉宣讀完畢請問院會對以上協商結論有沒有意義沒有意義那本案主條討論的所有進一協商結論處理所讀說法請先讀第17條"},{"start":16876.223,"end":16893.685,"text":"第17條案第14條及前2條規定既得知個人綜合所得總額﹐減除下列免稅額及扣除後之餘額﹐為個人之綜合所得淨額一、免稅額納稅用人按規定減除其本人配偶及合於下列規定﹐撫養親屬之免稅額"},{"start":16895.867,"end":16922.152,"text":"1、納稅義務人及其配偶年滿70歲者﹐免稅額增加50%2、納稅義務人及其配偶之直系尊親屬﹐年滿60歲或無謀生能力﹐受納稅義務人扶養者﹐其年滿70歲﹐受納稅義務人扶養者﹐免稅額增加50%2、納稅義務人之子女未成年﹐或已成年而應在校就學﹐身心照顏或無謀生能力﹐受納稅義務人扶養者﹐"},{"start":16923.832,"end":16951.534,"text":"三、納稅義務人及其配偶之同胞、兄弟、姊妹未成年或已成年因而在校就學身心障礙或無謀生能力受納稅義務人扶養者四、納稅義務人及其他親屬或家屬合於《民法》第1114條第4款及第1123條第3項之規定未成年或已成年而因在校就學身心障礙或無謀生能力確系受納稅義務人扶養者"},{"start":16953.135,"end":16970.285,"text":"二、扣除額納稅務人就項列標準扣除額或列舉扣除額則依減除外並減除特別扣除額一、標準扣除額納稅務人個人扣除12萬元有配額者加倍扣除之二、列舉扣除額一、捐贈"},{"start":16971.085,"end":16987.461,"text":"那是義務人配偶及受撫養親屬﹐對於教育、文化、公益﹐慈善機構或團體之捐贈總額﹐最高不超過綜合所得總額20%為限﹐但有關國防鬧軍之捐贈﹐其對政府之捐獻﹐不受金額之限制﹐"},{"start":16988.041,"end":17004.648,"text":"二、保險費納稅義務人配偶或受撫養直系親屬及人身保險勞工保險、國民年金保險及軍公教保險制保險費每人每年扣除數額以不超過24,000元為限但全民健康保險制保險費不受金額限制"},{"start":17005.388,"end":17025.629,"text":"三、醫藥及生育費納稅義務人配偶或受撫養親屬之醫藥費及生育費已賦予公立醫院全民健康保險特約醫療院所國經財政部認定其會計進入完備正確之醫院者違憲但受有保險給付部分不得扣除四、災害損失"},{"start":17026.669,"end":17050.547,"text":"③納稅義務人配偶或受撫養親屬遭受不可抗凌值災害損失但受有保險賠償或救濟金部分不得扣除④購物戶借款利息納稅義務人配偶及受撫養親屬購買自用住宅向金融機構借款所支付之利息及每一申報戶每年扣除數額以30萬元為限但申報有儲蓄特別"},{"start":17051.548,"end":17065.977,"text":"除蓄投資特別扣除額者﹐其申報之除蓄投資特別扣除金額﹐應在上項公屋借款利息中減除﹐那是義務人依上述規定﹐扣除公屋借款利息者以義務違憲"},{"start":17068.258,"end":17096.868,"text":"三、特別扣除額一、財產交易損失那是由人配偶及受撫養親屬財產交易損失及每年度扣除額以不超過當年度申報時財產交易之所得為限當年度無財產交易所得可資扣除或扣除不足者得以以後三年度之財產交易所得扣除之財產交易損失之計算準優第十四條第一項第七類關於計算財產交易增益之規定"},{"start":17098.489,"end":17125.268,"text":"二、薪資所得特別扣除納稅義務人配偶或受撫養親屬之薪資所得每人每年扣除數額以20萬元違憲三、儲蓄投資特別扣除納稅義務人配偶及受撫養親屬與金融機構資存款利息儲蓄性質信託資金之收益及公司公開發行並上市之記名股票之股利合計全年扣除數額以27萬元違憲"},{"start":17127.489,"end":17153.26,"text":"第一,由贊助基因會對法規定﹐免稅之全部租金利息及本法規定﹐分離課稅之利息﹐不包括在內四,身心障礙特別扣除﹐納稅義務人配偶或受撫養金屬﹐如為領有身心障礙首次或身心障礙證明者﹐及《精神衛生法》第3條第4款規定之病人﹐每人每年扣除20萬元五,監獄學費特別扣除﹐"},{"start":17153.78,"end":17171.925,"text":"那是義務人就讀大專引生院校之子女之教育學費每人每年支扣除除而以25,000元為限但空中大學、專校及五專前三年即以接受政府補助者不得扣除6、幼兒學前特別扣除自中華民國113年1月1日起"},{"start":17174.487,"end":17201.046,"text":"納稅義務人6歲以下之子女第一名子女每年扣除15萬元第二名及以上子女每人每年扣除225,000元長期照顧特別扣除自中華民國108年1月1日起納稅義務人配偶或受撫養親屬為符合中央衛生福利主管機關公告需長期照顧這身心失能者每人每年扣除12萬元"},{"start":17203.467,"end":17231.685,"text":"8、房屋租金支出特別扣除自中華民國113年1月1日起納稅義務人配偶及受撫養直系親屬在中華民國境內租屋供自住且非供營業或執行業務使用者其所支付之租金減除接受政府補助部分每一宣報戶每年扣除數額以18萬元為限但納稅義務人配偶或受撫養直系親屬在中華民國境內有房屋者不得扣除"},{"start":17232.706,"end":17251.164,"text":"依第七十一條規定應辦理結算申報和問辦理經基深機關核定應納稅額者均不是用前項第二款第二目列舉扣除而之規定納稅義務人有下列前行之一者不是用第一項第二款第三目之七長期照顧特別扣除及之八"},{"start":17251.644,"end":17264.835,"text":"1、房屋租金支出特別扣除之規定1、經檢出長期照顧特別扣除額及房屋租金支出特別扣除額後納稅義務人或其配偶依第15條第二項規定計算支稅額使用稅率在20%以上"},{"start":17269.719,"end":17296.392,"text":"納稅義務人依第15條第5項規定選擇就期申報或鼓勵及盈餘合計金額按28%稅率分開計算應納稅額納稅義務人依所得基本稅額條例第12條規定計算之基本所得額超過同條類第13條規定之扣除金額宣讀完畢照協商條文通過"},{"start":17297.935,"end":17300.377,"text":"全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請先讀經過二讀之條文"},{"start":17309.741,"end":17332.797,"text":"第17條案第14條及前2條規定既得知個人綜合所的總額﹐減除下列免稅額及扣除後之餘額﹐為個人之綜合所的淨額一免稅額納稅義務人按規定減除其本人配偶﹐及合於下列規定撫養親屬之免稅額納稅義務人及其配偶年滿70歲者﹐免稅額增加50%一"},{"start":17335.618,"end":17356.285,"text":"1、納稅義務人及其配偶之子系村親屬年滿60歲或無謀生能力受納稅義務人撫養者其年滿70歲受納稅義務人撫養者免稅額增加50%2、納稅義務人之子女未成年或已成年而因在校就學身心障礙或無謀生能力受納稅義務人撫養者"},{"start":17358.765,"end":17385.056,"text":"3、納稅義務人及其配偶之同胞、兄弟、姊妹未成年、未已成年而因在校就學身心障礙或無謀生能力受納稅義務人撫養者4、納稅義務人及其親屬或家屬合於《民法》第1114條第4款及第1123條第3項之規定未成年或已成年而因在校就學身心障礙或無謀生能力確系受納稅義務人撫養者"},{"start":17387.847,"end":17404.007,"text":"二、扣除額納稅義務人就下列標準扣除額或列舉扣除額則依檢除為並檢除特別扣除額一、標準扣除額納稅義務人個人扣除12萬元有配額者加倍扣除之二、列舉扣除額"},{"start":17404.628,"end":17422.401,"text":"一、捐贈納稅義務人配偶及受撫養親屬﹐對於教育、文化、公益、慈善機構或團體之捐贈總額最高不超過綜合﹐所得總額20%違憲﹐但有關國防勞軍之捐贈及對政府之捐獻﹐不受金額之限制"},{"start":17423.362,"end":17440.06,"text":"2、保險費納稅義務人配偶或受撫養直系親屬者人身保險、勞工保險、國民年金保險及軍公教保險制保險費每人每年扣除數額以不超過24,000元為限但全民健康保險制保險費不受金額限制"},{"start":17440.76,"end":17469.597,"text":"三、醫藥及生育費納稅醫務人配偶或受撫養親屬之醫藥費及生育費．賦予公立醫院、全民健康保險特約醫療院所或經財政部認定其會計記錄完備正確之醫院者為限單受有保險及副部分不得扣除四、災害損失納稅醫務人配偶或受撫養親屬遭受不可抗力之災害損失單受有保險、賠償或救濟金部分不得扣除"},{"start":17470.677,"end":17494.724,"text":"5、建屋、購屋借款利息納稅一物人配偶及受撫養親屬購買自用住宅向金融機構借款所支付之利息其每一申報戶每年扣除數額以30萬元為限但申報有儲蓄投資特別扣除額者其申報之儲蓄投資特別扣除金額應在上項公屋借款利息中減除"},{"start":17496.105,"end":17522.868,"text":"納稅義務人依上述規定扣除購屋借款利息者以義務違憲三、特別扣除額依財產交易損失納稅義務人配偶及受撫養親屬財產交易損失及每年度扣除額以不超過當年度申報之財產交易之所得違憲當年度無財產交易所得可資扣除或扣除不足者等以以後三年度之財產交易所得扣除之"},{"start":17523.928,"end":17543.175,"text":"財產交易損失之計算傳用第十字條第一項第七類關於計算財產交易增益之規定二、薪資所得特別扣除納稅義務人配偶或受撫養金屬之薪資所得每人每年扣除數額以20萬元為限三、儲蓄與投資特別扣除"},{"start":17544.235,"end":17567.745,"text":"納稅義務人配偶及受撫養親屬與金融機構之存款利息﹐儲蓄信值信託資金之收益﹐及公司公開發行並上市之記名股票之股利﹐合計全年扣除數額以27萬元為限但依郵政儲金匯兌法規定免稅之存不儲金利息﹐及本法規定分離課稅之利息不包括在內"},{"start":17569.446,"end":17586.403,"text":"四、身心障礙特別扣除納稅義務人配偶或受撫養親屬如為領有身心障礙所自或身心障礙證明者及精神衛生法第3條第4款規定治病人每人每年扣除20萬元五、教育學費特別扣除"},{"start":17587.223,"end":17604.817,"text":"納稅一五人就讀大專以上院校之子女之教育學費每人每年之扣除諸文以二萬五千元為限但空中大學、專校及五專前三年即已接受政府補助者不得扣除六、幼兒學前特別扣除自中華民國113年1月1日起"},{"start":17607.299,"end":17619.999,"text":"納稅義務人6歲以下之子女第一名子女每年扣除15萬元第二名及以上子女每人每年扣除22萬5千元七、長期帳戶特別扣除自中華民國108年1月1日起"},{"start":17622.802,"end":17636.786,"text":"納稅義務人配偶或受撫養親屬﹐為符合中央衛生福利主管機關﹐公告需呈起照顧之身心適能者﹐每人每年扣除12萬元﹐房屋租金支出特別扣除﹐自中華民國113年1月1日起﹐"},{"start":17639.247,"end":17661.995,"text":"納稅義務人配偶及受撫養直系親屬在中華民國境內租屋公自住且非公營業或執行業務使用者其所支付之租金減除接受政府補助部分為因申報戶每年扣除數額以18萬元為限但納稅義務人配偶或受撫養直系親屬在中華民國境內有房屋者不得扣除"},{"start":17663.635,"end":17680.175,"text":"依第71條規定應辦理結算申報而未辦理經基準機關核定應納稅額者均不是用前項第二款第二目列舉扣除而之規定納稅義務人有下列情形之一者不是用第一項第二款第三目之期長期照顧特別扣除"},{"start":17680.655,"end":17694.407,"text":"及之八﹐房屋租金支出特別扣除之規定﹐一、經檢出長期照顧特別扣除額﹐及房屋租金支出特別扣除額後﹐納稅義務人或其配偶﹐依第15條第二項規定﹐計算之稅額﹐使用稅率在20%以上﹐二、納稅義務人依第15條第5項規定﹐選擇就勤申報或鼓勵﹐"},{"start":17703.975,"end":17706.736,"text":"三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有沒有文字修正好 沒有"},{"start":17732.068,"end":17749.968,"text":"決議首讀稅法第17條條文修正通過本案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘首先請陳委員交法發言"},{"start":17766.636,"end":17782.702,"text":"院長、各位同仁今天立法院三讀通過的所得稅第17條其中關於提高幼兒學前特別扣除額並將年齡上限推及至學齡前6歲的部分此項修法是攸關減輕國人的養育經濟壓力"},{"start":17785.843,"end":17801.009,"text":"以提供幼兒更好的生長環境實例也提出相關的修法提案並與各黨團共同達成修法的目標我們知道2012年訂出的幼兒學錢特別扣除額"},{"start":17802.069,"end":17802.949,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":17825.314,"end":17852.044,"text":"也希望未來國家的主人翁可以有一個安心放心的生活環境另外剛剛三讀通過的所得稅第17條關於將房屋租金支出改列為特別扣除額時代力量也提出修法提案就是希望協助國人能有長期穩定的租屋條件還有能力"},{"start":17853.048,"end":17880.67,"text":"並進而促進租屋市場資訊更透明更多量所以我們看到目前主計總數的統計最新的租金指數年增率已經到2.01%已經連25個月上漲所以我們現在的租金補貼不應該只是透過治標不治本的短期租金政策因此實力與各黨團"},{"start":17881.591,"end":17891.576,"text":"一起推動將房屋租金支出改列為特別扣除額來提高數額就是為了透過長期好 謝謝陳委員接下來請邱委員顯示發言邱委員顯示發言"},{"start":17910.455,"end":17915.781,"text":"好 邱委員顯示發言邱委員顯示不在接下來我們就請曾委員民衆發言"},{"start":17924.161,"end":17951.041,"text":"主席 董院長剛剛立法院通過走投稅法第17條的憲政內容這一次主要有兩個重點第一個重點是幼兒學生特別客組合本來是5歲自用現在把它拉高到6歲以下另外特別客組合原來是每年12萬這一次提高到15萬那第二胎區"},{"start":17952.082,"end":17953.263,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":17971.352,"end":17989.052,"text":"本來是12萬那國民黨黨希望拉高到24萬因為其實租金每一年12萬那一個月只有1萬其實是不夠了這一次拉高到只有18萬真的是為德不主"},{"start":17990.333,"end":18006.186,"text":"基本上這樣的修正我們兩團也只能勉強接受因為在協調的過程當中因為財政部對富人減稅都不眨眼比如說過去5例從455例的手頭稅從45%一下就降到28%分離課稅"},{"start":18013.131,"end":18040.486,"text":"這些有利於一般民眾的這些學權特別客足偶或者房屋租金特別客足偶這對一般的民眾很有注意尤其是改善目前年輕朋友不願生小孩的國安問題但是很遺憾財政部跟這些小老百姓斤斤計較真的沒有必要真的是為德不主謝謝"},{"start":18046.639,"end":18048.286,"text":"謝謝曾委員 接下來請邱委員陳遠發言"},{"start":18063.23,"end":18084.486,"text":"謝謝院長還有全體國人很高興所得稅法第17條條文修正案在本會期最後階段協商通過完成三讀本項法案是為了配合0到6歲國家養的政策打造青年怨婚感生樂養的環境本席在本屆期領銜提出的黨團法案通過包括農保條例24條25條刪除禽獵生育"},{"start":18088.349,"end":18117.11,"text":"給付的投保年資限制及增加生育給付為3個月公教人員保險法第36條刪除請領生育給付的投保年限制以及今天的所得稅法第17條修正通過包含幼兒學前特別扣除而放寬為6歲以下每年每人特別扣除而增加到第一胎15萬元第二胎以上22.5萬元這些都是因應少子女化浪潮所做的做法"},{"start":18117.87,"end":18137.983,"text":"很議案的是包括少子女化社會對策基本法目前仍未得到行政院的重視另外勞工保險條例仍未獲得審查修正同步放寬勤領生育給付的投保年資限制以及給付提升為三個月還有公保法也"},{"start":18139.133,"end":18152.562,"text":"再因統一提高生意給付為3個月這個部分還有主管部會有相關不同的意見必須要持續盤點修正現在政府每年投入少子女化對策的總經費已經從107年的193億元成長到明年的1200億元以上"},{"start":18157.245,"end":18174.928,"text":"整整提升6倍但新生兒的人口數卻持續越升越少今年可能會跌破13萬代表預算並沒有花在刀口上政策也沒有有效的讓人民有感因此本席要再次呼籲請政府持續積極盤點推動相關修法打造有算的生養環境"},{"start":18176.169,"end":18195.398,"text":"最後一次站在這裡 拚到最後一刻今天院會結束後 大家就會返回選區繼續打拚成員希望明年再度回到立法院 完成衛進之志最後預祝大家高派連任好 謝謝邱委員 接下來請林委員處應發言"},{"start":18208.827,"end":18231.5,"text":"謝謝主席與立法院的同仁今天所得稅法修正案三讀通過感謝各朝野黨團立委們的高度重視本次修法一次提供了民眾兩個重要的付稅優惠正確的訊息希望透過今天的發言能夠讓民眾知道首先就是學前幼兒特儲兒的部分放寬門檻從5歲改為6歲以下的子女"},{"start":18235.642,"end":18255.457,"text":"提高學前誘餌特別扣除額從12萬增加到15萬第二胎以上更調高到22萬5千元因應我國少子女化的現象達到鼓勵生育的政策這一次藉由修法提高誘餌學前扣除額並且"},{"start":18256.878,"end":18278.946,"text":"擴大適用年齡將有效減輕家長們在學前誘餌的家庭負擔第二個當然就是租金支出的扣除額的修正的部分把列舉扣除額改為特別扣除額然後在扣除額的部分也增加到為18萬增加排付條款有殼條款確保租稅正義"},{"start":18281.947,"end":18300.415,"text":"本次修正將房屋的租金支出改列為特別扣除額﹐可以擴大房屋租金支出的適用對象﹐讓租族能夠享受租稅優惠過去在申報房屋扣除額的人數﹐大約是2.7萬戶﹐比率不到所有租戶的3%"},{"start":18302.456,"end":18303.577,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公報告"},{"start":18329.773,"end":18332.748,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 接下來請吳委員欲請發言"},{"start":18346.943,"end":18372.589,"text":"謝謝院長現行的所得稅法裡面是針對房屋租出的部分是可以列舉扣除12萬但是現在大部分的租屋主特別是雙薪的家庭會理性的選擇扣除額的部分是標準扣除額導致我們現在百萬的租屋主只有2.7萬的戶來申請這個租屋的一個抵免抵出所以申報率只有2.7"},{"start":18373.689,"end":18401.068,"text":"那所以去年我跟這個村媽媽基金會奧爾斯跟曹映一起召開了為青年租屋減壓的記者會租屋團體也提出了修法建議希望能夠把房租的部分改列為特別扣租額並增加扣租額的額度所以今年特別在110年其實住宅法也將公益出租及加入包租貸款的房東享有1.5萬每個月的一個租金每收入"},{"start":18401.688,"end":18430.385,"text":"那這個部分看起來我們付出租金的這個房客卻沒辦法享有租金的一個扣除所以考量雙方的一個付稅的一個橫評本席將建議就將房租的租屋列為特別扣除額並且將可扣除的額度提高到18萬比照長照特別扣除額的排戶機制能夠就是做排戶的一個機制這是對於租屋族絕對有感的政策房屋租出"},{"start":18431.065,"end":18458.668,"text":"支出不是不報現在時刻已到所以也是讓我們居住正義的路上更往前邁向一步那也謝謝特別謝謝崔媽媽基金會奧爾史曹映跟祝蒙持續對於租屋主的一個發聲那今天也是我們這第10屆最後一次的院會所得稅法也是本席在這8年來第73部的法案的修法我要特別謝謝立法院的所有同仁齊心協力才能夠把"},{"start":18459.509,"end":18467.555,"text":"各項法案能夠修法通過也謝謝立法院讓我有這個機會在立法院為我們弱勢者服務也謝謝所有同事們 謝謝"},{"start":18486.51,"end":18510.86,"text":"好 院長那各位我們同仁我想所得稅法第17條針對租金支出扣除額規定為列舉扣除額12萬元是財政部按照民國88年的租金行情訂定然後時至今日這個抵扣額度已經與目前的整個租金行情相去甚遠那採取列舉扣除額更是讓這個機制形同雞肋"},{"start":18512.076,"end":18532.625,"text":"同時我們現行實務上民眾在報稅時候因為這個列舉扣除額與標準扣除額也只能二則一那所以除了來自房東的壓力跟不敢申報之外更因為這個標準扣除額會隨著這個CPI的這個調漲那標準扣除額長期高於列舉扣除額按照這個內政部住宅狀況抽樣調查推估108年"},{"start":18534.366,"end":18558.381,"text":"臺灣約有100萬戶的租屋主他同年的稅負有列舉申報租金支出抵扣的納稅戶數也只有大概2.7萬戶僅佔總體的大概2.7%所以簡單講這就是一個看得到吃不到的狀況所以我們這次也要感謝民間團體像租客聯盟還有奧爾斯還有"},{"start":18558.983,"end":18584.275,"text":"這個吹媽媽基金會等長期的努力跟各朝野黨派的支持促成了我們本屆立法院最後一次院會能夠真正完成租金從現行的列舉扣除額改為特別扣除額並且設置排付條款額度也由現在的12萬提到18萬實質的算是有真正照顧到我們全台的租屋族群也算是真正的落實了我們整體的居住正義的一個目標 謝謝"},{"start":18589.097,"end":18597.903,"text":"登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢報告宴會本次會議所內討論事項均已經處理完畢依據立法院議事規則第54條規定本屆最後一次宴會之議事錄於"},{"start":18612.219,"end":18625.911,"text":"上會前先讀現在請林秘書長先讀第8會期第12次會議意思錄立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議意思錄時間中華民國112年12月15日上午9時至9時14分10時至11時30分12月18日上午9時至11時20分12月"},{"start":18640.603,"end":18664.535,"text":"19日上午9時3分至9時35分9時41分至下午1時52分地點本院議場出席委員、邱委員、陳妍等110人請假委員、劉委員、耀豪等2人主席院長游錫坤、副院長蔡吉昌報告事項第一案先讀本院第10屆第8會期第11次會議意思錄決定確定"},{"start":18667.967,"end":18690.841,"text":"第二案．第765案．經決定交付相關委員會審查處理或交付相關委員會第766案．第768案．為交通委員會所提之報告案第769案．第771案．為行政院函送本院委員提案之原組情形執行事項"},{"start":18691.761,"end":18712.298,"text":"假行政院答覆部分19件：本院委員執行部分兩件討論事項第一案至第16案經決議通過其他事項變更議程提議民進黨團一案及國民黨團一案一併處理已通過二112年12月14日朝野黨團協商結論一項先讀完畢報告委員會"},{"start":18722.468,"end":18747.191,"text":"針對第8會期第12次會議．事由：並無委員或黨團提出錯誤或疑慮之處作為下次宣告第8會期第12次會議．事由．確定報告委員會今天是本屆第8會期最後一個宴會日"},{"start":18748.564,"end":18772.534,"text":"本會期自9月22日開議期間﹐朝委黨團及全體委員共同努力下﹐我們一共通過了94件重大議案﹐包括法例案51案﹐預決算案33案﹐廢止案1案﹐原事同意前1案﹐內規5案及其他議案3案等"},{"start":18773.248,"end":18788.811,"text":"其中除113年度中央政府公務預算案外可歸納為下列五大面向一、加強民生安全制定營養及健康飲食促進法"},{"start":18789.724,"end":18819.354,"text":"以營造健康的飲食環境修正家庭暴力防治法預防數位型暴力制定道路交通安全基本法以其有效降低交通事故確保路人安全修正住宅法照顧更多弱勢族群以租金補貼讓租屋市場透明化修正都市危險及老舊建築物"},{"start":18819.844,"end":18846.927,"text":"加速重建條例 促進危老重建效率保障居住安全二、健全財政並促進文化經濟發展修正文化資產保存法提升保存歷史建物誘因修正金融消費者保護法納管電子支付業修正水利法促進重大工程推動"},{"start":18847.682,"end":18875.279,"text":"修正海關進口稅作為例行我國與石瓦地泥經濟合作協定之關稅減讓承諾修正房屋稅條例與所得稅法落實居住正義以鼓勵生意提升司法公平性修正民事刑事訴訟法及其施行法鼓勵當事人撤回無意或不必要的訴訟"},{"start":18876.574,"end":18905.093,"text":"給予授權人對行動意見表達機會對身心障礙者訴訟程序擴大強制辯護修正《刑事補償法》讓外籍人士或無國籍者在臺願意可申請補償這些司法改革提升公平性使人權向前邁進一大步四、尊敬勞工與公務員人員權益制定最低工資法"},{"start":18905.563,"end":18927.266,"text":"建構完善的審議制度 確保勞工家庭的合宜生活水準 修正審計人員任用條例 點示法增訂多元彈性的審計人員任用資格條件規定 完善政府用人政策 國家考試公平性"},{"start":18927.762,"end":18957.323,"text":"以公信力五、促進轉型正義修正國家機密保護法及政治檔案條例使4500多份永久機密的檔案將不再永久保密藉以釐清久嫌未決之名以促進社會和諧使轉型正義向前邁進本屆委員就此不久就遭遇世紀大浩劫的"},{"start":18957.791,"end":18971.036,"text":"新冠肺炎嚴峻疫情下我們以最短時間內通過抗疫紓困及振興經濟相關法案預算做國家安全護盾為人民權益把關"},{"start":18971.977,"end":18998.388,"text":"回顧四年八國會期 院會總計通過782件議案重大法案的制定包括《國民法官法》《太空發展法》《國營台灣鐵路股紐線公司受制條例實容教育法》及《亞洲首部公共衛生司法》還有修正《氣候變遷因應法》以因應氣候變遷帶來的衝擊"},{"start":19002.307,"end":19014.533,"text":"修正《信憑三法》建前臺灣信憑環境通過樹花部、農業部、環境部等組織法完成行政院主改最後一里路"},{"start":19016.319,"end":19037.067,"text":"還創下一個所例就是通過我國歷史上第一次將修憲案送交公民投票戶籍的18歲公民權憲法修正案此外緬介曾經通過29次大會結議案包括開放國會行動方案"},{"start":19037.874,"end":19065.676,"text":"華航與護照證明還有無意通過促請蔡政府積極推動臺美副交集促請美軍協防臺灣等在優化國會功能方面本屆成立國會擴建規劃及監督委員會處理本院擴建相關事宜並交棒下一屆國會繼續處理希望臺灣能夠早日有符合"},{"start":19066.334,"end":19069.967,"text":"最高民意殿堂的國會建築和硬體設備這一個議場"},{"start":19073.615,"end":19096.226,"text":"不只誕生了上述有關國家發展的民生福祉的法律還迎接了來自非邦交國民主友邦的肯定與祝福四年來曾有美國眾議長佩洛西等八位議長立院訪問其中捷克參議長韋德齊捷克眾議長艾達莫瓦"},{"start":19101.008,"end":19113.18,"text":"立陶宛議長、西敏利特等三位中共邦交國的國會議長都曾經在本院院會中站上議場講台發表兼專題演說"},{"start":19116.435,"end":19132.65,"text":"堅定表達跟臺灣站在一起這是我國民主國會誕生30年以來的一個創景第10屆立法委員任期即將被接滿明年2月1日是第11屆新國會的開始"},{"start":19134.673,"end":19161.722,"text":"在臺灣民主發展的漫漫長路裡我們都曾經參與其中擔負堅負重任的跑者每一個步伐都會在民主的歷史上留下不可磨滅的痕跡我們曾經因彼此不同的立場看法偶有爭執、摩擦也有因為一致的理念而團結一心在我們的心中"},{"start":19162.321,"end":19182.311,"text":"最大的公約數就是2300萬人民的權益僅此 我要感謝蔡副院長、查委黨團領袖、全體委員、全體工作同僚及媒體朋友們做4年來一起在立法院共同為我們的國家人民謀求最大的福祉"},{"start":19183.396,"end":19195.719,"text":"完善的選舉才有健全的民主為了讓2300萬國家主人能夠在明年1月13日大選的時候做最明智的選擇"},{"start":19196.684,"end":19219.274,"text":"本院應該讓各黨派委員．有更多的時間回到選區．面對選民．因此本院議率與本會期中加速．各項議案審議後提早於投票前24天的今天必會．僅此祝福各位委員競選順利．"},{"start":19221.403,"end":19241.877,"text":"新的一年是祥瑞的農年也是舉行大選決定臺灣未來發展的關鍵年僅此向大家拜一個早年敬祝各位及全體國人新年快樂、平安順心、農庭福耀謝謝大家現在散會"}]}},{"id":"15359","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15359","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0e15e91ec4b967cad01d95ed5b288e31546d53a332764a5352be40a3a4bd72c885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-18T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：研商「房屋稅條例部分條文修正草案」等案(如附件)（民進黨黨團提議））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-18","start_time":"2023-12-18T09:30:03+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121566","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-18T12:11:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":9657,"委員發言時間":"09:30:03 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各界發表意見"},{"start":2667.239,"end":2683.809,"text":"不要說讓他們沒有辦法啟動來這個計畫所以凍結一部分然後等到他開完公聽會然後到委員會報告後就開始凍資這樣我的建議是這樣"},{"start":2688.58,"end":2710.806,"text":"我們講程序問題今天曹偉強發通知是要有關房屋稅這個是很重要明天一定要通過大家來看有關曹偉強留下這個議題外務部也在那邊說明很清楚我知道有些在陳情那些我認識你現在講他們都要看直播都講起來沒聽到"},{"start":2714.087,"end":2738.886,"text":"這問題是非常兩難啦一百零八年通過以後那個河哨潛移保障法也就是說那時候是立法院通過就是說這種河哨潛移保障法裡面有關於幼兒園等等嬰兒園等等有孽兒事件的時候那時候常常發生孽兒事件所以有通過必須錄影"},{"start":2739.927,"end":2763.566,"text":"學校沒錄影,沒有錄影還要罰錢,這個是通俄,通俄的辦法都跟得很清楚那現在是這樣啦齁,大家都有啦齁發生事情的時候,大家就說錄影再也找不到,找不清楚等等那很多糾紛啦這是一體兩面的啦,全國家長來看這個事情"},{"start":2764.571,"end":2780.043,"text":"那業者當然也有,有些是反對的,可是法院已經規定了那現行的辦法是這樣,後來先知政府就像台中、台北、新北市都有先知政府自己弄一個營"},{"start":2781.209,"end":2805.611,"text":"你們全部來這裡是這樣 有一百八十幾個學校都是這樣的六都差不多這種做法有時候中央有糾紛我管理中央就用上邏輯我這裡問題來看嘛沒有問題不可以討論先是使用 先是看嘛那現在真實要改革是一個全國的語言這現在只是全國把"},{"start":2808.137,"end":2817.383,"text":"各個學校政府都要把他修成全國,這樣的話,一個議員上一段的時候,事實上會做得更好。你剛剛說會發生資安的問題,現在各個學校也會發生資安的問題。"},{"start":2822.754,"end":2838.459,"text":"縣市政委也發言上來,活下來做讓治安會做更完全,而且這個東西只用在一個,不能在監看學校,學校要幹什麼,老師在教書上什麼,只有發生糾紛的時候,你如果不講話嘛,怎麼這樣不這樣怎麼樣,很多糾紛,這常常發生的。"},{"start":2841.744,"end":2863.036,"text":"這事會連郭議員常常爆出這種現象,禮見不詳所以衛生部的意思是說,我總統放在一個雲上面,要政府來追,治安會夠得正好你談的治安是表面他們談的是治安,實際上是反對上全國雲只是這樣這樣,這我們很為難嘛,你知道總統罩他們"},{"start":2867.995,"end":2868.777,"text":"這個題目不是今天才出現的題目"},{"start":2877.694,"end":2901.239,"text":"那我知道這頁紙的長文很坦啊,哇這如種汙染,後來上面誰,平常誰都不能偷看啊,也不能去監督學校怎麼樣啊。像個別,現在個別可以,學校可以偷看老師有沒有認真啊。這個好像更有保障啊。當然這是一個很大的公共文化議題齁。"},{"start":2903.479,"end":2925.316,"text":"我們現在很為難,結果站在他們那邊,我們反正事情誰要負責這個是一個進步的,國家發錢把它整合起來所以我是建議就是說,他們有在溝通啦,他們也是一直在溝通,在發這個來溝通最近也一直要找我,我也不會演啦,坦白講,最近我也認識所以我們今天在談這個議題的時候就是說,那天談的就是說"},{"start":2929.539,"end":2942.668,"text":"原來提的案子是說全部凍結,立法院到現在為止30年來還沒有發生一個單位一張被全部凍結的,所以這個是不可行凍結80%也不可行,50%也不可行"},{"start":2945.009,"end":2961.36,"text":"上禮拜在這裡有講說他講的數字我跟邱成岩有稍微溝通一下他們也知道他也被接受審訊他也知道這個東西很為難所以他大概講話都是不敢講得太清楚我算很清楚講這些話來"},{"start":2963.871,"end":2964.552,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議"},{"start":2993.857,"end":3008.485,"text":"大家先理清這個事情他們有時候一定齁 一定 一定叫外部不講 叫政府不講不是我們的事情啦 要給他們有機會講阿你的預算都通過了 還有什麼好講的所以我要凍結就是要給他們去講 溝通凍結百分比的問題而已啦我們到現在 我只要講什麼"},{"start":3018.751,"end":3019.872,"text":"我講的總是答案啦"},{"start":3036.974,"end":3048.081,"text":"今天這個文章我現在很好好去溝通第一個乃至於開公聽會都無所謂那凍結數大家來談嘛凍結數立法院對於所有議長我們在這麼多年來前面兩位你們三位都是最後黨編的嘛凍結金都10%嘛像這一次總共10%"},{"start":3057.907,"end":3057.967,"text":"主席"},{"start":3078.483,"end":3103.068,"text":"第一就是現有法令的規定我在委員會很清楚現有法令的規定就是規定都要錄影有硬碟儲存一個月是這樣沒有規定要做雲端集中起來這是第一點我要說明的所以教育部他們是反對幼兒園做全國監管雲的"},{"start":3104.568,"end":3118.219,"text":"本來幼兒園也有人提議說這個現在講的是托育中心喔本來幼兒園也有各幼兒園的硬碟然後也有人提議說那我們做全國監管員教育部反對"},{"start":3119.66,"end":3133.558,"text":"所以現在幼兒園是沒有做全國監管員的就是各幼兒園都要儲存一個月硬碟然後如果你不見了要被罰"},{"start":3135.185,"end":3164.654,"text":"有罰則的你不能說我不見了加重罰則嘛你儲存起來就要儲存起來一個月內隨時縣市政府要去檢查你都要提供現在幼兒園是這樣所以他們教育部是態度就是反對建立全國幼兒園的硬碟監視器硬碟的全國監管營教育部反對的他認為風險更大所以這個我要跟大家再說明"},{"start":3165.494,"end":3179.69,"text":"現有法律是規定要做硬碟 要儲存 沒有規定要做全國監管員那我覺得啦 當然這個柯總要講說 有時候去查結果說什麼沒有錄影到好 這個都是違規啊"},{"start":3180.831,"end":3202.763,"text":"本身就是違規你要儲存一個月你就要儲存一個月不管任何理由所以你應該要加重這個方面的法則這是一點另外就是說如果各縣市都已經在做縣市的監管員那就給縣市做嘛你把全國的再把它集中再做一個全國監管員"},{"start":3204.104,"end":3204.164,"text":"主席"},{"start":3225.794,"end":3252.829,"text":"縣市監管局 這也是一個方法一個方向因為縣市政府已經有的在做了然後也不會風險這麼大把全國的全部集中在那邊萬一就是說資安的問題是這樣越分散資安受到駭客攻擊受的傷害越小因為你資料分散嘛為什麼資料要分散去中心化"},{"start":3253.976,"end":3283.445,"text":"因為你被攻擊的結果全部的資料都在裡面那個洩密的這個情形就會變成非常的重大我們常常全國的資訊就是說健保資訊被盜結果 哇 這個範圍非常大如果是限制在縣市限制在每一家的這個育嬰中心他受傷害的情形萬一也被害了受傷害情形比較小所以這個當然各有利弊 我知道那家長裡面也有"},{"start":3283.925,"end":3284.246,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3301.442,"end":3301.742,"text":"吳懿晶委員"},{"start":3322.931,"end":3323.211,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3345.103,"end":3345.443,"text":"民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":3373.647,"end":3374.068,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3395.131,"end":3421.781,"text":"因為家長真的會擔心就像剛剛委員講的你分散的時候駭客他多忙啊他要去攻擊多少地方才可以拿到一點點資料但是你集中的時候真的是非常危險其實不是只有衛福部有這個問題我們中央各部會都現在開始出現很大的這個問題他們開始到處收集許多人民的資料這攸關到你怎麼收集的你有沒有告知人家你怎麼儲存你怎麼應用你怎麼銷毀"},{"start":3423.982,"end":3447.874,"text":"我們這些東西都沒有一個很明確的規定一般民眾會很擔心的謝謝好 柯總召要彼此說服彼此我想這裡面牽涉到不是只有我們兩招啦都告沒有外務部啦 感恩中啦都業者啦那我知道大家都有被業者"},{"start":3451.408,"end":3477.341,"text":"來遊說的壓力啦我吳會員他沒有找我我也很清楚啦齁但是我還是想講一些話啦齁所謂這個不是要監管這是系統儲存系統而已這個沒有用來監管的任何的議會跟工人不是說搞不好要好好要關心政府要監督好這個學校有沒有好好教書等等行為這只是儲存一個系統"},{"start":3478.57,"end":3496.947,"text":"因為案件 發生事件 要出來看現在就是通通 只有30天而已那他出來看 第一個 我沒有照到角度 或是不清楚 乃至於要重置等等這種所有問題 各位都忘記了 報紙上面都寫很大"},{"start":3498.409,"end":3516.1,"text":"我們要站在保護嬰幼兒的角度上面來看待至於教育部因為0到2歲是屬於不會講話是屬於衛福部的3歲到6歲是屬於教育部的所以教育部的意思是說當然你要往他也是說大家協調好教育部是反對"},{"start":3519.742,"end":3528.732,"text":"這個是法規定的,兒少前醫保育法上規定的,所以法是每年都有的,都很清楚,人家辦法都寫得出來,辦法利用等等都可以的。"},{"start":3540.89,"end":3555.884,"text":"這個他已經用非常安全等級在處理這個事情,要害的話現在每個學校讓最簡單,讓很容易進去。你不要用這樣的話來講說,我們什麼都不要做淫端了,加密什麼等等他們會去做。我的看法是這樣,"},{"start":3559.505,"end":3572.497,"text":"我們在這邊彼此爭辯,大家都知道這是一體多面的事情啦,就是要動多少,然後動以前要開工廳,這個我們都OK的,好嗎?我相信這是一個我們在這裡,所以往後退"},{"start":3582.186,"end":3596.483,"text":"誰打死都不可能的啦一天發生事情的時候,你不在州立委,我們還在州立委這每一個黨團都會中招啊不是說家長,家長當然是希望保護兒童嘛"},{"start":3597.355,"end":3598.676,"text":"我寫還是你寫 我們寫"},{"start":3623.067,"end":3623.248,"text":"主席"},{"start":3641.471,"end":3641.631,"text":"9點可以先練"},{"start":3665.635,"end":3669.777,"text":"委員長 國民黨也一樣嘛你總要說明啊委員長 國民黨也一樣嘛你總要說明啊委員長 國民黨也一樣嘛你總要說明啊"},{"start":3691.269,"end":3694.25,"text":"明天9點就開始開會 動員你們假動大概9點半就可以了"},{"start":3717.747,"end":3718.508,"text":"當然不休息了"},{"start":3735.087,"end":3736.108,"text":"民進黨條例部分條文修正草案．．民進黨團提議．．"},{"start":3764.338,"end":3765.139,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3780.336,"end":3780.436,"text":"黃國健議員黃國健議員"},{"start":3811.859,"end":3813.519,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3838.53,"end":3867.603,"text":"有關於房屋稅的部分,大概在委員會審查以後有保留,保留總共五個條文事實上關鍵只有一條而已,就是第五條第五條大概我們的部分和民進黨的部分都差不多當然我要尊重其他各黨,關鍵就是這一條還要保留五之一是因為第五條誰能保留,實在有不同意見通房稅是地方稅的部分,要補貼等等"},{"start":3870.352,"end":3889.986,"text":"第五條、五之一、第六條都是配合保留的有關第九條就是刪除民意代表那個大家應該有共識那個是小問題刪除民意代表當中立下評議委員這個大家有高度共識還有第十一條的部分就是這個平定的時程多久一次關鍵就是第五條而已"},{"start":3891.406,"end":3904.167,"text":"第五條大概我簡單講就是說我們和我們黨的意見是一致的大概這樣最高4.8嘛好看大家有什麼意見好請曾總召"},{"start":3907.364,"end":3928.529,"text":"有關房屋稅條例第五條也就是所謂屯房稅的部分我們兩個立場第一個假設稅率4.8我們兩個基本上支持這是第一個第二個那有關課稅限制的部分要請財政部再講清楚"},{"start":3929.403,"end":3929.523,"text":"主席"},{"start":3950.859,"end":3969.691,"text":"稅率4.8 行政院版本國民黨團基本上支持 這第一點第二點 請莊部長說明課稅限值現在跟市價有沒有相當假設沒有相當 要多久之後才可以讓它相當好 這個兩點說明 謝謝好 請說明一下部長讓齊璐兄先講一下 再請部長說明 來"},{"start":3980.333,"end":3996.485,"text":"民進黨原始提案版本在稅率上是比較重一些但是我們也是希望說今天就是草野協商而且是最後的機會那當然其實我們也可以支持院版這邊就是草4.8因為我們是覺得說"},{"start":3998.346,"end":3998.606,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4021.377,"end":4021.757,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4049.713,"end":4072.312,"text":"不往這個方向做絕對是不可以的我們還是堅持主張當然一定是要往這個方向做所以當然我們今天為了成全這個大局當然我想各黨團如果這個共識是配合院版可以的話當然我們一定是要讓它通過那另外單是稅基的這個調整的部分可能財政部真的我覺得這是非常急迫的非常急迫的就是讓整個稅基更能夠接近真正的實價"},{"start":4074.053,"end":4092.038,"text":"這個才是一個最終最終的這個大的方向我想民眾黨黨團一直在也希望其實事實上實價割稅可能是更重要的這個所謂的這個稅制改革的這個部分那這個地方我們也希望然後我們也希望就是說看能怎麼調整雖然當然這個地方也面臨那個地方政府的這個挑戰"},{"start":4093.328,"end":4121.425,"text":"地方政府有時候甚至不是往上調還往下調的都有發生所以這個地方怎麼樣讓這個配套更好還是希望未來財政部在配套上應該做得更好以上 謝謝好 謝謝等一下 中央部長等一下讓邱總召委先講一下他剛才有舉手你再中午回答謝謝院長那這個房屋稅條例第五條的這個版本那這個就是說本來是最高是3.6"},{"start":4123.57,"end":4151.933,"text":"結果現在只增加到只增加到4.8事實上只增加1.2%那你說這樣的實施的結果到最後能夠這個提高我國的這個囤房的持有的成本那這個持有的比例那個稅率然後呢能夠逼出空餘物然後達到這個增加這個供給的目的以便這個便宜房價這是自欺欺人嘛"},{"start":4152.95,"end":4171.256,"text":"這根本才1.2%我現在囤房十幾間然後你又有增加這些稅率說這樣有辦法逼出空漁屋我覺得這個是掩耳盜鈴也是自欺欺人就是說根據112年度全國非自住住家用的稅級個人歸屋統計表"},{"start":4173.257,"end":4195.433,"text":"多數民眾所持有的空屋 如果你持有空屋的話是一到三戶 這個是比較多的但是依照財政部的這個參考基準的話 這個稅率的這個級距最高這個級的話是3.8% 等於是說比現行的3.6最高稅率才增加0.2嘛"},{"start":4197.094,"end":4197.374,"text":"民進黨團提議（民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":4219.776,"end":4246.946,"text":"等於是說你要課到最高的4.8%的話你要持有最高7戶以上然後對於有益囤房的投資客怎麼會有這種嚇阻的作用所以這個是自欺欺人嘛那另外一個更嚴重的就是說關於房屋起造人的這個部分就是說這個所謂的建商囤房的部分這個才是我們現在最重要想要去對付的嘛"},{"start":4247.506,"end":4247.706,"text":"立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":4267.799,"end":4290.529,"text":"那到你可以用使用執照下來才開始起算的話那等於是說你的算法是說也要超過五年之後才能對這個起照人科與最高的4.8%的稅率那變成是說他在預售屋的時候就可以賣個一兩年了那之後還要再賣五年"},{"start":4292.17,"end":4304.04,"text":"等到五年後總共加起來將近七年你才會刻以最高的稅率那這不是在鼓勵說變相讓建商可以安心的囤房七年"},{"start":4305.1,"end":4305.28,"text":"劉仲敬議員"},{"start":4327.548,"end":4346.289,"text":"民進黨團的版本跟國民黨黨團的版本差不多我會覺得這個有點奇怪啦民進黨是農工企家的一個政黨搞到最後你在面對這個棚房租房屋稅條例第五條的時候現在台灣房價已經高不可攀"},{"start":4347.37,"end":4362.56,"text":"那年輕人根本買不起房子這個台灣的出生嬰兒人數是已經歷史的新低了去年才13萬人今年是1到6月6萬多人又要破紀錄了搞到年輕人都已經活不下去的情況之下結果你就輕巧一句哇"},{"start":4363.18,"end":4389.89,"text":"增加的 好不容易 屯房稅條例這個房屋稅條例 千戶萬壞 死出來啦在將近這七八年的時間裡面 理由薄 理由一大堆然後現在總算要推出來了 增加個1.2%那甚至最多的屯房數 空屋數 這個一到三戶 這個這個級距最高是3.8 等於是增加0.2而已建商屯房 可以讓建商安心的屯房七年再來賣"},{"start":4391.93,"end":4418.117,"text":"清巧一句說我們的版本我們民進黨的版本跟國民黨一樣你不會覺得奇怪嗎你不會覺得很奇怪嗎那所以其實實在是那個版本是非常清楚的你就是要讓這個用這個足夠的誘因然後去有效的去嚇阻這些故意囤房的建商嘛非常清楚嘛如果你超過一年之後"},{"start":4418.937,"end":4440.95,"text":"你就是應該科與他最高的稅率然後才能夠有效的去兼顧各方的利益然後去嚇阻故意囤紡的建商能夠讓空餘屋可以逼出來能夠真正的刺激、能夠增加供給我們也可以看到就是說部長"},{"start":4441.87,"end":4466.709,"text":"這個上週財政部才喜洋洋的公布說今年前11個月個人房地合一稅收累積已經三四八億那年增這個百分之六有望超過去年全年的382億那挑戰400億的新高那我必須要講說這到底有什麼好高興的"},{"start":4468.09,"end":4493.866,"text":"這到底有什麼好高興的你房屋房地合一稅的目的是要嚇阻這個短期交易的投機買賣嘛所以你的稅收應該要越少才表示說你這個嚇阻短期交易買賣投機的買賣有效嘛這個不是啊這個你越收越多那不是表示說這個短期的交易投機的買賣越更多嗎"},{"start":4495.848,"end":4506.217,"text":"財政部竟然把它當作政績所以這也顯示說財政部的這個防事政策根本就沒有效根本就沒有效"},{"start":4507.939,"end":4532.767,"text":"結果你非常的高興喜洋洋那你有沒有想到那些在台灣水深火熱完全沒辦法買到房子的年輕世代整個世代被房價壓得喘不過氣來然後只能被迫在房子跟孩子之間二者一的這個狀況那所以投資客完全都沒有感受到"},{"start":4533.677,"end":4533.757,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4549.913,"end":4575.883,"text":"提高房屋稅率和將稅率明定入法還是不願意最後我必須要講說另外一個更自欺欺人的方式就是全台灣到底有哪一個地方政府有根據所謂的地方稅法通則認為要把稅率自行調高到三成這是非常離譜的根本不會有"},{"start":4577.344,"end":4577.464,"text":"主席"},{"start":4591.874,"end":4592.134,"text":"陳教法委員"},{"start":4617.212,"end":4637.856,"text":"在這裡還是要表達我們現在行政院版的這個稅率還是太低所以實力黨團我們提出來的版本差別極具必須要入法那我們在這裡還是要呼籲在野黨我們不要用這樣草率的這個4.8%就要來為"},{"start":4641.817,"end":4642.697,"text":"副總召你還有話要說嗎接下來再鄭總召"},{"start":4665.454,"end":4690.407,"text":"所謂預收屋,我想大家都知道嘛在平均經驗條例修正以後,預收屋就不能轉業了嘛,因為封死了嘛那我們現在有兩稅合一,移民並到所得稅上面去處理所以是不同系統的在看待這個事情那我今天我知道最後一點是剛才講好了好像師傅就是說等著我們講什麼話就要攻擊我是講很簡單的一句話就是說"},{"start":4691.588,"end":4710.099,"text":"行政版本和國民黨版本兩個差不多那我想這個不是要我盡力在這個伺機就是說你們都假的怎麼樣因為你的概念和別人的概念是不太一樣你用屠龍稅要10%的嘛那可以這樣做嗎這值得討論"},{"start":4711.48,"end":4729.897,"text":"所以我們今天要很冷靜來談一下就是說至於健康部分當然健康部分它是買來就要賣掉了當然賣不掉它必須忍受稅率的增加這個把房子逼出來這個部分有一個當然有稅率一定有稅率到4.8"},{"start":4731.198,"end":4751.965,"text":"所以今天在談這個房屋稅條例的時候,我希望彼此不要建議在說你都假的,我都在講的待會請財務部針對時代用法好好說明好不好那請官方回答鄭守昌鄭守昌講完了以後我們就讓莊副財政委員先講"},{"start":4764.289,"end":4782.995,"text":"我想有關房屋稅修正條例相關的討論事實上已經好幾年了因為過去房屋稅的這些稅率的訂定事實上基本上是地方政府的權責在憲法裡面房屋稅也是屬於地方政府的"},{"start":4783.775,"end":4811.709,"text":"的稅收但是因為我們台灣現在房價的問題因此大家對於目前的房屋稅的相關稅率大家認為說有訂定更清楚的差別稅率的必要這也是大家俗稱的囤房稅其實這是所謂差別稅率的極具"},{"start":4813.831,"end":4813.951,"text":"民進黨團提議"},{"start":4830.503,"end":4831.504,"text":"事實上大家也知道﹖"},{"start":4851.719,"end":4877.354,"text":"這個禮拜就是我們這一屆會席的最後的時間那如果這個沒有在今天的協商沒有通過或是在這個我們的院會處理沒有通過的話那這個有關這個房屋稅大家所謂的囤房稅的這個訂定他可能就要延到下一屆要重新來一次因為他屆期不連續又必須重新來一次所以事實上"},{"start":4878.695,"end":4893.993,"text":"各界對於囤房稅的期待都是希望說我們能夠在這一次這一屆的最後的會席能夠通過通過的過程裡面當然大家各黨有各黨的版本各黨大家有各自的看法"},{"start":4894.79,"end":4913.782,"text":"但是如果說我們每一個黨大家都堅持自己的都堅持自己的版本那指責其他的版本是自欺欺人是離譜等等我覺得這樣子的做法第一無助於這個我們法案的大家達成共識第二就是說這個"},{"start":4915.567,"end":4934.748,"text":"事實上對於這個許多的期待能夠這個房屋稅條例能夠在這一屆裡面做修法的許多的這個國民以及這個團體裡面他們都都是認為說至少我們今天這次通過大家有一個取得一個共識踏出第一步"},{"start":4935.469,"end":4935.749,"text":"立法院黨團提議"},{"start":4955.134,"end":4984.472,"text":"沒有一個政黨是自欺欺人也沒有一個政黨是提出離譜的法案我覺得這個是大家要互相尊重那討論出一個共識我認為說能夠在這個會期最後的時間裡面通過一個大家有共識的法案我覺得這個才是對於這個我們目前改善我們目前這個地方政府對於房屋稅的這個差別稅率的制定我覺得才是有幫助的以上"},{"start":4986.307,"end":4986.327,"text":"黃國健議員"},{"start":5006.213,"end":5032.33,"text":"他的目的是幹嘛他的政策目的希望能夠建成房市實現居住正義再講一次希望能夠建成房市實現居住正義讓年輕朋友可以買得到房子這是他的政策目的第二點其實我是極少數委員提出這個修正草案"},{"start":5033.567,"end":5061.201,"text":"在財委會提出已經討論了兩三年從早期財政部不願意認為不可行到現在已經把行政院版本送來所以已經有進步的第二點第三點還是那句話稅率基本方向支持行政院的稅率4.8%但是最重要的"},{"start":5062.264,"end":5062.684,"text":"主席"},{"start":5077.174,"end":5095.987,"text":"財政部因為這整個是屯房稅的最重要的配套所以等一下請部長要說明課稅限值到底現在跟市價差距多少那假如有差距的話多少年之後可以讓他推進市價 謝謝接下來請外匯稅名者莊副郎請說明"},{"start":5104.428,"end":5125.602,"text":"謝謝各位委員的指教我想在房屋稅裡面當然有兩個因素也就是各位所提到的就是說稅率還有一個就是稅基也就是課稅限值那在稅率的部分各位也許看到這個是3.6條到4.8最高的稅率和現在的法條來比較的話雖然是有提高1.2但是它有一個很大的一個差異第一個"},{"start":5126.142,"end":5126.282,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5148.186,"end":5148.346,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5166.203,"end":5166.503,"text":"民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":5184.737,"end":5189.778,"text":"新蓋房屋跟房屋結構還有各方面都來說是跟原來是差距很大的然後再加上地段率的調整那地段率就跟這個地方的繁榮程度商業化的一個情形都有關係所以這個部分地方政府其實這幾年已經調高非常多以臺北市來說已經調高到一點"},{"start":5209.782,"end":5210.322,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5237.717,"end":5237.817,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5261.051,"end":5261.111,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5279.344,"end":5279.505,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5294.383,"end":5312.44,"text":"好 院長剛剛我認為現在是在談稅率部長這樣在講稅基或是剛剛其他的黨團講稅基基本上這是兩件事稅基是稅基的問題稅率的問題現在要回答是說你這樣的稅率有沒有辦法逼出這個空餘屋"},{"start":5314.142,"end":5330.673,"text":"那剛剛柯總都講了這個預售屋的限制的轉售的規定那平均地點條例這跟這件事情是風馬牛不相及啊你現在是要求說建商然後你要讓他拿到使用執照之後才開始起算嘛那你建商在這個這個在拿到使用期間"},{"start":5331.834,"end":5331.934,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5352.296,"end":5367.068,"text":"那另外又說 你的最高級率才4.8% 4.8%那要算的是說 空餘屋 7戶以上台灣空餘屋7戶以上等於是你自己自住那邊3戶的 都算15億以上才會算到4.8%那你這樣有幾個人 多少人有15億以上"},{"start":5377.137,"end":5400.131,"text":"對阿所以這個是可以就事論事的不是說你現在你推出這樣的一個版本然後這個連最多空戶數的以現在台灣來看的話是1到3戶嘛那你的級距才增加0.2%本來3.6嘛你現在3.8所以這完全是可以理性來討論的不是說你現在提出一個"},{"start":5401.312,"end":5421.543,"text":"法案 院版 院版跟國民黨團也都差不多問題是這個法案到底是不是合理的如果不合理的話 怎麼樣才能夠有共識如果你不合理的話根本沒有辦法達到你的政策的目的的時候"},{"start":5423.7,"end":5448.588,"text":"要逼人家說這樣的情況之下也要接受然後接受一個完全都沒有作用的一個法案然後讓這些現在年輕世代遭受困苦困痛苦繼續的存在是這樣嗎在民進黨完全執政一黨獨大情況之下哪有法案能夠阻擋啊坦白講今天保留之後明天還不是照樣"},{"start":5451.102,"end":5476.682,"text":"這個通過那只是說這樣的狀況是合理的嗎我們要問的是這樣子因為你已經這個法案已經遲到太久了過去的理由就是說啊這個會轉嫁啊什麼有的沒的啊理由一大堆嘛那總算七年之後願意提出這一個房屋這個稅條例的修法了"},{"start":5477.262,"end":5477.462,"text":"主席"},{"start":5498.147,"end":5509.335,"text":"結果你要全國歸戶的情況之下 要算到十戶就是台灣人 要在台灣 整個台灣要十戶以上才會算到你的4.8"},{"start":5511.684,"end":5512.004,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團長"},{"start":5535.45,"end":5537.191,"text":"立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":5554.869,"end":5565.123,"text":"自欺欺人 因為財政部是稅的專家 你推出這個政策之後能增加多少稅"},{"start":5570.51,"end":5584.59,"text":"結果你告訴你數字呈現出來的時候你告訴大家說這樣可以逼出他的空餘物他增加了幾千塊的稅率的情況之下那這樣的話他就會把他手上的這個屯的這個房子把它賣掉是這樣嗎"},{"start":5586.931,"end":5603.486,"text":"這完全是可以講道理的所以我基本上會認為說你的這個版本確實我覺得如果說要來協商的話基本上有一點誠意的話基本上應該就這些稅率也好這些大家所認為的爭點也好"},{"start":5606.408,"end":5634.299,"text":"應該要有所再去商榷否則的話這個版本通過之後也毫無意義可言好 邱委員我想說這個版本通過毫無意義可言這句話大概大概邱委員講出來恐怕我個人不能接受社會上也不太能夠接受說這個版本通過毫無意義那我覺得這個"},{"start":5635.885,"end":5656.107,"text":"邱委員你是律師我想這個這個我們就就法論法今天我們在協商的就是房屋稅條例第五條的條文內容你剛剛所談的長篇大論裡面大部分其實跟這個法條無關你在談的都是這個集聚跟這個這個這個集聚稅率基準的問題"},{"start":5656.927,"end":5678.803,"text":"這個東西並不是定在法裡面這個是我們這條法通過之後才有你剛剛討論的那些問題到底幾年到底這個房屋差別稅率的級距它的級距數跟各級的稅率基準這個是等我們這個法通過之後這個法的條文就是超過一年未出售的房屋"},{"start":5680.779,"end":5696.578,"text":"防護限職百分之四點八科徵這個是條文通過之後才有你剛剛講的幾年第一類他在幾年一年之內兩年超過一年到兩年到四年這個都是法通過有的不是在法條上面的文字所以如果"},{"start":5697.585,"end":5700.027,"text":"我看沒有共識啦各黨團沒有共識我們就保留啦大家剛才都有充分發言"},{"start":5727.466,"end":5750.748,"text":"不好意思 這邊再補充一個部分因為剛才那個部長有特別講到其實這次的討論 我想其實為什麼剛才我們實力這邊邱總召的想法是覺得說這個政策的目標到底能不能藉著這次修法完成我很坦白說當然我們也很清楚這是為什麼外面的民團也一直在主張"},{"start":5751.709,"end":5763.665,"text":"實際上如果真的要逼出空屋的話甚至應該要有一個所謂的中央的吞房特別稅這也是民團事實上我們有提版本那當然我知道是不可能在這個會期能夠達成這些事情"},{"start":5764.625,"end":5764.805,"text":"民進黨團提議（民進黨團提議"},{"start":5785.068,"end":5811.327,"text":"這個部分財政部到底有沒有辦法就是說雖然我們今天就算明天去表決通過這樣子的一個概念那但是我們怎麼樣讓這個稅基能夠慢慢的跟上這部分能不能部長有比較具體一點的承諾到時候你們怎麼修因為因為坦白說你們也只有胡蘿蔔跟棍子在手上嗎就要求地方政府去做嗎那這個部分是不是有辦法能夠更具體啊就是免得就是說我們只是口頭在承諾一下"},{"start":5811.527,"end":5816.309,"text":"委員長 我補充一下剛才神話委員講說這個法基本上這個沒有涉及到這個稅率嘛因為我不知道這個理解對不對啦但是呢"},{"start":5827.535,"end":5848.351,"text":"其實這很清楚嘛現在現行條文裡面它的規定這個第一項第一款就是住家用房屋公自住或公益出租人或出租人使用者維持房屋限制1.2%嘛那其他的最低不得少於房屋限制1.5%那最高不得3.6%嘛"},{"start":5850.512,"end":5869.373,"text":"所以我們討論的脈絡就是說他現在最高是3.6他要到4.8嘛所以怎麼會說這個沒有在討論稅率不然我們現在在幹嘛他在那個年數你所講的什麼五年七年那個是無關的嘛那這個就是不是啦你這個就是這個裝睡人搖不行嘛"},{"start":5869.833,"end":5870.713,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":5886.641,"end":5909.051,"text":"他的配套就是這樣我們不要睜眼說瞎話嘛他現在他的整個規範的設計就是如此反而是說我們的版本是希望說他能夠入法是希望說他至少有一個法規範的依據那財政部的版本是不是像我講的這樣子他要到五年之後才算建商囤房五年之後才算4.8是嘛"},{"start":5910.785,"end":5910.965,"text":"民進黨團提議．．"},{"start":5934.356,"end":5935.457,"text":"現在最多屯房的就是一到三房"},{"start":5954.326,"end":5954.646,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議"},{"start":5977.83,"end":6003.77,"text":"可以增加多少的稅收?一間房子夠一千塊?所以我要講的是說我今天也是完全覺得莫名其妙啊為什麼大家大家都而且你的這個版本你是非常的體恤建商的建商屯房是大家認為說現在是對不是扣帽子啊那你可以表示你覺得說讓他可以賣七年不是體恤建商"},{"start":6007.133,"end":6007.553,"text":"實在力量黨提的"},{"start":6024.407,"end":6043.644,"text":"五條之一我們提案的這個目的只有一個就是鼓勵這個空屋的釋出這個去出租那其實你可以看到就是說你現在最高級距都已經4.8了才4.8那所以就這部分的話"},{"start":6044.605,"end":6071.532,"text":"我們是希望說你至少應該要多鼓勵他去讓他去出租因此所定的稅率比財政部稅率為低目的何在就是說如果財政部如果是以財政部的規定的話一定要達到租金的標準此方式不僅可以影響房東與租客之間的交易協議自由還限定要達最低房租的水準"},{"start":6072.993,"end":6100.553,"text":"這也是讓民眾感到租金的壓力因此既然是要鼓勵 空屋的事出出租的話應該就是只需要審查租賃契約就可以了給予房東跟房客 較大的方便性的誘因讓民眾有適宜的房屋可以住就是說 其實我們的目標並不是就像剛剛房地合一說提到的基本上"},{"start":6101.394,"end":6101.494,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6118.399,"end":6143.698,"text":"可以就是說買到或是租得起也好買得起房子吧所以租稅捐增稅再強調一次增稅不是重點重點是我們要平抑這個房價所以不要把增稅當作最主要的目的而忘了最根本的這個目標所以這個因此我們希望修這個新增這個房屋稅條例五字一條"},{"start":6145.078,"end":6145.238,"text":"第九條"},{"start":6166.533,"end":6174.562,"text":"請看第十一條,第十一條也有協商的意見,那如果大家沒有意見我們也照協商的內容通過這樣好不好"},{"start":6187.475,"end":6188.096,"text":"有一個修正動議"},{"start":6204.121,"end":6204.461,"text":"其他就照審查會的結論通過"},{"start":6227.932,"end":6245.775,"text":"第25條的立法說明有怎麼樣有修正一個叫第11條是吧大家看一下就是說最後那立法說明要調整一下那調整一下就這樣那調適的問題嘛好那接下來就請大家看第二案第二案第三案"},{"start":6247.834,"end":6249.814,"text":"這個案子其實沒有太多的爭議只是說金額的調整"},{"start":6273.252,"end":6291.507,"text":"我們很多委員提出的案子主要的目的我先跟院長各位委員跟官員們報告一下就是台灣的出生率現在越來越低去年的出生率好像只有13萬3"},{"start":6294.025,"end":6294.365,"text":"民進黨團提議８立法院黨團提議８"},{"start":6316.288,"end":6317.729,"text":"主案目的是日後可以增加勞動力"},{"start":6327.26,"end":6344.295,"text":"20年以後可以有多繳稅的人否則我們台灣人口減少也是國內的流失或者是你外來人口的加入我想我們還是要多生一點台灣的小孩這是主要的目的我們現在總共有幾個方向"},{"start":6351.175,"end":6351.596,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6368.56,"end":6392.413,"text":"第二 特別扣除目前是12萬部長是不是12萬很多委員要提出來到24萬18萬後來我跟財政部在財委會大家也都同意我們微幅的調一下就從12萬到15萬當然財政部願意到18萬我們也接受"},{"start":6394.994,"end":6417.145,"text":"當然我們審這個案子的時候我們看到底加惠於誰對我們在場的人尤其委員大概都沒有除非我們老柯有老柯你打算生第二個嗎不會喔你生第二個我額外送你一個大紅包你比我還有能力我希望我要回去要徵求我太太同意"},{"start":6420.002,"end":6443.268,"text":"同時不排富 因為排富你加上一百多萬 說實在以台北市 年薪一百萬也不算高了你想考慮到現在養孩子很貴 而且買房子也很貴 所以我們把排富把它拿掉 大家也都同意這個是大家 現在正要討論的是 我第一個孩子特別控訴是十二萬增加到多少錢"},{"start":6446.253,"end":6468.433,"text":"就是五到六歲沒有爭議 排富大家沒有爭議還有第二個小孩把他的特別扣除額調整後的增加50%那便於財政部計算方面就是第二個小孩以後第三第四個通通都固定了再增加50%"},{"start":6470.194,"end":6488.661,"text":"事實上財政部也去拿幾年前的資料來試算大概稅損在8到10億 院長可以報告一下稅損沒有多少只有8到10億而且那時候以當時在3年前5年前那時候小孩子出生率是比較高的"},{"start":6489.901,"end":6490.242,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6505.765,"end":6528.826,"text":"大家所有委員的目的都是良善的希望台灣的小孩多生一點日後增加勞動力日後在他成年以後工作可以多繳稅其實長遠的看對國家絕對是一個好的案子現在有的爭議就是特別公署第一個小孩是12萬增加到幾萬"},{"start":6530.68,"end":6540.785,"text":"第二是我們固定第二個小孩以後通通是增加比第一胎的小孩增加50%大概是這兩個方向 謝謝"},{"start":6543.962,"end":6546.403,"text":"這次的修法"},{"start":6563.371,"end":6583.028,"text":"當然我們的目的還是希望有點跟剛才我們費總召講的是很接近就是說當然目的是希望說這個是有點鼓勵的那個性質啦那因為過去我們在這個用這種列舉的方式甚至講直白點他根本就是用標準扣除就已經結束了這件事所以這個東西就是一直看得到吃不到的"},{"start":6583.248,"end":6583.588,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議"},{"start":6604.415,"end":6604.795,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6620.461,"end":6620.561,"text":"吳維基委員"},{"start":6651.301,"end":6669.12,"text":"其實在17條說的稅法我們也是我提我們跟黨團提的也是有關於租金扣除額的部分那財政部這邊已經OK是把它放到特別扣除額了嘛那我們現在其實差大家各版本的差異是在不同的金額"},{"start":6670.041,"end":6671.122,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6688.26,"end":6688.6,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6712.692,"end":6713.333,"text":"邱董昌議員"},{"start":6727.933,"end":6751.003,"text":"12萬你要去設想說這個新手的爸爸媽媽他在現在2023年嘛2012年的時候12萬那2023年他所要承載的這個負擔多了多少光是這個所謂的房價就翻了不知道幾倍"},{"start":6752.824,"end":6777.663,"text":"兩倍還不止說實在的所以在這種情況之下你說2012年12萬現在要喊到多少才能夠足夠以一個例子來講的話就是說以台北市為例公社民營托嬰中心月費是一萬一社區公共托育家園的月費是一萬四千五如果是私立托嬰中心的話光是註冊費就八千塊"},{"start":6780.245,"end":6780.385,"text":"臺灣出生嬰兒數目"},{"start":6805.845,"end":6806.025,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":6831.171,"end":6846.119,"text":"這個有句話說這個養育一個孩子需要全村的力量其實現在也是一樣就是說新手的父母不是說他孤立的在無緣的情況之下然後呢兩個新手的爸爸媽媽在照顧這個小孩"},{"start":6846.459,"end":6850.042,"text":"發言順序我稍微宣布一下 不然有人很急科總召 再來曾總召 再來就是陳教法委員"},{"start":6883.326,"end":6903.684,"text":"我們是希望表達現在少子化的問題真的是非常嚴重非常非常嚴重所以要鼓勵要生然後這個照顧養育是很辛苦的我們要讓年輕人有感願意生這是國安問題"},{"start":6904.482,"end":6904.742,"text":"賴慧卿議員"},{"start":6924.71,"end":6949.883,"text":"我聽了一下我整理第一個這案子惠總召很清楚他在財務委員提出來了後來隔一個禮拜由這個總法院委員也提租金扣除了基本上這都還不夠一個月啦也就是說還不到表決期我希望說今天我特別把他放最後的時候上禮拜五把他放入訪問事項也就是說我希望大家能夠談好"},{"start":6951.528,"end":6978.2,"text":"這基本上是一個得證好的事情那不要靜音箱喊架啦這個大原則那我剛才仔細聽一下副總裁的講法就是說當然以前從2.5到12所以是從12到15然後以後在第二個就double這個是一個說法張啓祐是24萬嘛民眾黨走了那威廉30萬這個是最高的邱人志也是24萬嘛"},{"start":6981.516,"end":6999.511,"text":"你30萬嗎?我講的是租金啦,不是那個...現在沒有在談租金,現在是幼兒啦喔,抱歉,好現在是...租金還沒...那個...實在要是24吧?成交吧?沒有,你要7吧?但是你還是單一的,我們有極具的差別就是說"},{"start":7000.816,"end":7002.317,"text":"本來是要排戶現在就不排戶了"},{"start":7032.517,"end":7033.078,"text":"我查一個話好了"},{"start":7058.072,"end":7085.674,"text":"我是體諒這個案子因為還沒有到協商期所以如果用表決的話勢必不能表決所以我才願意讓他以過為原則現在癥結點大概只有一個啦就是特別控訴我現在是12萬15萬財政部可以接受18萬財政部有點勉強"},{"start":7088.871,"end":7089.672,"text":"第一胎到十八萬"},{"start":7115.666,"end":7130.533,"text":"第二胎就是18萬的渣50% 第三胎也是固定一樣 第四胎也是一樣這個陸排戶 陸排戶的稅損已經達到將近7億了等一下我們再算一下 我們再談一下 五分鐘以後再談好不好休息五分鐘啦大家要把它談清楚 要用共識啦 因為這沒辦法表決 如果要表決這會其實過不了"},{"start":7143.643,"end":7144.064,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7171.178,"end":7174.82,"text":"其實稅損大概不到10億啦促進生意小錢啦"},{"start":7198.65,"end":7199.51,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7223.941,"end":7226.424,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7238.638,"end":7241.039,"text":"大家談好啊 大家簽一簽"},{"start":7268.201,"end":7269.387,"text":"共同提案一起提案"},{"start":7455.079,"end":7456.24,"text":"這個協商有共識我們就照這樣通過啦"},{"start":7475.932,"end":7478.674,"text":"財政部講清楚因為113年度稅出兩兆八千多元將近兩兆九你在稅損才多少"},{"start":7498.459,"end":7525.319,"text":"對阿,三十億阿不行阿,這個還是太低稅選才多少這個老柯,我是跟院長報告,誠懇的建議因為這個案子還不能到表決的階段我們十一到二十九要再送出來所以呢,平安安,我們是希望過第一要務"},{"start":7527.503,"end":7555.115,"text":"第二當然財政部我沒有克制他們我雖然私下跟他們開玩笑像我在立法院財委會我對企業的我們這個營所稅我從來不把它往下降但是中所稅我是覺得可以讓往下降中所稅是每一個人都適用企業專行繳稅多繳一點我都支持的"},{"start":7555.748,"end":7571.817,"text":"但是個人的部分尤其是這個案子這個案子我覺得 比方講我剛才開我們柯總召的玩笑他也不會再升了啦曾品中大也不會再升了 院長大也不會再升了我也不會再升了 對不對"},{"start":7574.93,"end":7574.95,"text":"從12萬到15萬"},{"start":7597.762,"end":7615.608,"text":"不排付 再加上第二胎到第三胎以後 通通再增加第一胎的50%這樣的 院長給你報告 這樣稅準多少 23億太少了與全國齁 與全國 我們今年的稅收將近可以到3兆 你想想看嘛3兆 10%是 3兆 3000"},{"start":7626.8,"end":7626.84,"text":"主席"},{"start":7641.058,"end":7667.558,"text":"我們邱委員大家也都知道這案子他也願意從24降到1818大概稅損是多少老柯我給你報告你還要配合到出生率的往下降大概在30到35兆之間我講的合理吧大概是30到一年稅損是30到35兆相對我們中損稅一年現在6千億"},{"start":7669.355,"end":7672.137,"text":"一百個只有八十個生小孩"},{"start":7693.49,"end":7694.551,"text":"民進黨團提議：立法院黨團提議．民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議．"},{"start":7717.296,"end":7738.297,"text":"今天所有的案子我都沒有意見都尊重更多我是懇切的啦懇切的來談這個事我還沒講我跟你講啊大家在這裡講話都要負責啦當然啦大家都方向都一樣你第一次講法就是到15吧然後第二年第二胎的時候是50%"},{"start":7740.009,"end":7740.589,"text":"我公開私下的我都講過"},{"start":7761.292,"end":7785.696,"text":"這不是我們個人的問題而且同時我們協商的時候就是15萬然後第二胎加50%第三個不牌付但是提醒我講剛才有很多黨團我是把大家的心聲講出來最後取決決定如果說你們財政部我沒有說你不同意財政部不同意我就按照當初的版本"},{"start":7786.556,"end":7811.31,"text":"你聽我講我沒有講你們民進黨團的那個案子我還要重申一次是我上禮拜五特別把列印討論事項從來沒有一個人來跟我講這個事情那我覺得這個很重要雖然還沒到一個月包括志明扣除也應該大家可以有理性來討論這是第一個原則第二個我們讓志明總講完如果說你們不同意就算了好不好"},{"start":7813.612,"end":7814.533,"text":"那我講一下,我們要講完嘛"},{"start":7818.325,"end":7846.241,"text":"你要了解齁 這個是要報稅人才有扣房很多人不要報稅人不到這個所以這個有落差有不公平所以這個要考慮這個事情啦這報稅人要贏得到 不報稅人就一堆啦有落差不公平所以我們既然大家講好有共識都已經這樣的15、22年 第二胎的時候22.5不知道邱永志委員 大家都同意嘛那鄭明忠委員就不要堅持我們就這樣大家共同提案了嘛"},{"start":7847.302,"end":7875.209,"text":"然後第二個就是說因為不排戶所以那邊的順粉也打到將近7億啦所以這樣加起來順粉不少今天不問國家不是說我們要講一個合理的邏輯啦因為總統不要吸水公安也不理他但是這裡有一個合理邏輯嘛好不好好你先講啊剛剛休息前本來就輪到我啊我本來剛剛就要講"},{"start":7876.539,"end":7905.943,"text":"其實所能稅法第十七條這個柴委會的先進在這裡過去都不敢修嘛那為什麼不敢修就怕比照援引恐怕這個在柴委會的所能稅法第十七條的提案恐怕超過一百案兩百案怕的是嘛那更多怕援引比照那既然大家已經有這個共識了嘛"},{"start":7907.547,"end":7908.548,"text":"一年稅出兩兆八千億我的想法是"},{"start":7936.004,"end":7936.144,"text":"主席"},{"start":7960.669,"end":7964.45,"text":"補充一點剛剛柯總召講說第一胎15萬第二胎增加到52.5%基本上我的態度是含淚接受"},{"start":7979.035,"end":8005.291,"text":"這個說實在因為我們現在討論的是幼兒扣除額嘛簡單講就是說現在托嬰的費用很高啦你現在認為說你讓這個年輕的爸爸媽媽能夠體會到說國家對他的支持那這個其實是非常非常重要的當然這個15萬的扣除額一定是不夠的啦一定是不夠的嘛所以我們版本才會是24萬那"},{"start":8006.992,"end":8023.174,"text":"就是說要跟財政部我覺得也要溝通一個觀念因為國家財政是靠誰來支撐當然是靠人來支撐是靠這個人做一個主體來支撐那你如果人口的問題這麼嚴峻"},{"start":8024.916,"end":8053.739,"text":"就像大家講的這已經是一個國安問題了沒有台灣人怎麼有辦法有稅收去支撐這個國家的這個財政那我剛剛跟院長講說法國媒體來問我說這個台灣的人口的問題他問我說那在法國可能這個一個婦女有兩個這個小孩平均那台灣的狀況是怎麼樣我跟他說只有0.8他嚇了一跳"},{"start":8054.842,"end":8081.856,"text":"所以你就知道說這個人口的問題在台灣有多嚴峻世界倒數第一這絕對是一個非常重要的警訊那這個也會嚴重影響未來的財政部的稅收跟他的財政所以你應該是要站在這樣的一個角度因為等一下我們也會討論另外一個房租扣除我的部分你應該要站在這個角度就是說"},{"start":8082.896,"end":8101.521,"text":"在大家願意生小孩的情況之下你如何能夠去支持他並且給予他更好的一個優惠應該是在這樣的一個角度那稅損 我坦白講剛剛其實貝爾園跟曾委員提到這個稅損是27億這27億在佔了三兆裡面不到千分之一"},{"start":8108.863,"end":8128.187,"text":"所以你可以從其他的方面那包括這幾年的超徵稅額等等都已經這麼多錢了你可以從其他方面去著手但是如何能夠讓這些新手的爸媽媽媽得到他的支持這個部分才是最重要的今年的這個稅收超徵上看3800億你這個稅順才27億"},{"start":8134.309,"end":8151.871,"text":"陳教法委員陳委員您說完我們就做決定了我還是要強調就是說因為我身為職業婦女就是職業婦女我們要生孩生兒育女還要照顧家庭還要做家事坦白說是很辛苦啦"},{"start":8152.412,"end":8177.193,"text":"所以今天我們要鼓勵職業婦女然後願意生而且快樂的生我們給她一點這樣子的特別扣除我覺得真的是很好的利益啦那剛剛就是提到就是12到15坦白講真的是非常有限啦雖然這次柯總召你的非常這個支持的做法把她納進來討論不過我是覺得"},{"start":8180.616,"end":8205.451,"text":"若願意的話大家還是至少提高到18這樣子還是會比較好啦那我們也希望財政部說明就是18是如果說可以的話如果說頂多就是27億以下嘛所以如果是做得到的話我還是支持我們希望大家有共識能夠通過第一台18因為我們剛才有初步的共識還是好來柯總長"},{"start":8208.493,"end":8226.424,"text":"以前有初步公示我們就照這樣來做啦我要講一件事情就是說剛剛在這裡大家都很會講哇 這國安問題怎麼樣但是在今天以前哪一個委員跟我講說這個案子要抬進去我上禮拜五特別早上六點鐘就提案我那邊有提一個案 原住民身分法"},{"start":8227.384,"end":8231.607,"text":"實力有排阿 只是沒有排進去而已阿我們有提案 但是能不能排是你的權利阿我們又沒辦法排"},{"start":8242.475,"end":8244.056,"text":"第二案就照這樣通過第三案的部分"},{"start":8272.312,"end":8274.214,"text":"有關租金支出的部分現在財政部是有答應"},{"start":8297.449,"end":8297.489,"text":"主席"},{"start":8317.746,"end":8327.015,"text":"以台北市租金的情況大概有兩萬所以評計數在兩萬左右所以我是建議提高到二十四萬 謝謝"},{"start":8333.686,"end":8361.012,"text":"邱總裁謝謝院長那其實這個跟剛剛那個脈絡也是一樣啦如果能夠給予年輕世代更多的支持這樣那其實根據主計總出2020年的資料全台家務平均月租金一公尺差不多15000元啦那這15000元基本上也是比較低估的這個數字因為光是2020年第二期社會住宅包租代管的計畫"},{"start":8361.832,"end":8381.659,"text":"台北市的這個平均月租差不多兩萬塊那你可以看到光是這兩個數字都是看到租金的這個底線大概是落在一萬五到兩萬多塊那在舉例來講的話像這個前幾年大安區的八坪的獨立套房租金大概在一萬一左右"},{"start":8382.179,"end":8399.12,"text":"那如果再比對現在網路上出租的資料現在租金大約已經漲到一萬五了所以從房價漲到租金漲的這個狀況那整個六都二零二三年上半年住宅平均租金如果你用二十坪嘛你只要二十坪的住宅"},{"start":8399.84,"end":8416.402,"text":"臺北市月租大約三萬二 桃園市也大概一萬四左右所以就這部分的話你租金的下限在那裏不一定但是你的天花板是一直往上的所以這不可能是說這個不去做調整的這個狀況"},{"start":8418.504,"end":8439.178,"text":"包括民間團體例如村媽媽基金會都有表示過租金應該是由例舉的扣除偶改為特別扣除偶那也應該要調高到大概30萬左右那這跟實例版本的提案是一致的就這個部分的話我們希望能夠去做相應的調整給予民眾一個長期穩定的支持"},{"start":8444.642,"end":8471.198,"text":"那就是這個財政部也常常講說免繳稅有大概305萬戶啦所以租稅優惠的調整對多數的民眾不會有幫助那我們認為說這個邏輯不對租稅優惠的出發點就是要去幫助那些有需要幫助的民眾包括這些比較弱勢的民眾那所以就這部分的話我們是希望說能夠給予這些"},{"start":8472.619,"end":8472.659,"text":"吳亦廷偉"},{"start":8481.152,"end":8481.372,"text":"民進黨團提議．民進黨團提議"},{"start":8505.862,"end":8506.082,"text":"柯總裁"},{"start":8530.544,"end":8556.196,"text":"這案子我還是要重申費用證委員牌以後,剛才又有扣除以後,下禮拜就是審判委員牌我很注意到這個事情那我這段時間一直想找老會談說我們這個大概有一個公司來通過昨天早上來的時候就特別談這個問題上個禮拜也是跟曾董事長談過除此之外都是我主動拜託"},{"start":8558.524,"end":8567.969,"text":"現在大家出來醒起來 這個很會講道理我們不進的 什麼催媽媽我們要講一個道理假如說我們現在有300萬護士"},{"start":8569.861,"end":8596.629,"text":"不必報稅的年輕人根本用不上我們用到兩萬多我們要照顧弱勢所謂年輕人根本用不上這個東西這個都是要收入要一定程度才用得上那我們現在 認證部還有另外一個措施就是黃豬丁補貼所以18萬這樣加起來已經到兩萬多塊啦這不是用在你昨天是要講到弱勢弱勢那300萬沒有一個用得上這個"},{"start":8597.569,"end":8611.963,"text":"所以這個我們到底用在什麼地方大家要很清楚所以我們要把立法樓級和我們整個要加會哪些人講清楚以後我希望大家有共識不要再互相抹黑講話都不一樣"},{"start":8615.094,"end":8616.955,"text":"現在在談的是應該是你扣除二到底要多少"},{"start":8633.706,"end":8639.712,"text":"我們希望這樣的補貼政策不要只是一個短期的預算補貼政策"},{"start":8649.821,"end":8649.901,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":8669.011,"end":8677.454,"text":"委員長 各位委員我在財委會19年我很少對富人去減稅基本上是沒有所以對關稅對銀索稅你看我從來不碰"},{"start":8695.576,"end":8717.797,"text":"剛才我們這個 因為老柯在立法院那麼是最資深的我們曾總召當過財政部的次長 當過金管會的次長我們會考慮到我們的財政紀律今天 明天是最後一天 就是這個任期這個任期 不是這個會議 這個任期 最後一天"},{"start":8719.235,"end":8745.022,"text":"其實在我的這個會期我當召委員：很多人拜託還有所謂的稅法第十七條還有很多案子老柯我跟大家報告我都不碰我都不碰那個會影響那個碰那些案子有些案子確實是對有錢人會有好處我之所以提到這兩個案子我願意拿出來協商平常去講哈"},{"start":8746.355,"end":8760.032,"text":"對有錢人根本不在意這個東西有錢人不在意生小孩了你看有錢人鼓勵生小孩生第一胎給一千萬生第二胎給一億他不會care這個東西但是確實是一個國安問題"},{"start":8762.692,"end":8787.669,"text":"第二件事情我們在最後一天來談這個這個任期沒有其他的所有的稅法第17條了就不可能啦對政府的稅損不會有什麼影響的但是我們是在協商嘛尤其是比方講委員對柯建民要提出啊他非常正面的因為這兩個案第二案第三案子"},{"start":8788.823,"end":8816.41,"text":"如果今天不處理是無法表決的因為在協商期他在協商期這個基本上還是要對柯建民表示謝謝的高度肯定肯定就可以了不需要高度肯定上禮拜五我特別早上六點鐘就排第一案排第一個把他放進去然後這個我們要講齁中部大會當然要有公式的齁我這要講就是說會員清楚啊"},{"start":8818.59,"end":8837.05,"text":"一百零八年的時候,修所的稅法八十幾個案子,我們這派援引阿那時候我手把抽出金額圖,然後在草原協商,你要為這個事情抱怨叫我道歉我說沒有辦法不處理阿,你報警案要怎麼協商,所以各黨一個版本出來那我們今天這個大概,最後給大家一個圓滿的記號"},{"start":8846.244,"end":8856.174,"text":"委員長補充一下這個是福國利民照顧中低收入的我們共同提案好不好共同提案這個真的是覺得說再補充一下因為你現在你說18萬嘛對不對18萬的問題就是說"},{"start":8863.041,"end":8888.649,"text":"他就變成是說一個月大概滿一萬五啦那剛剛其實提到因為臺北市光是說這個2020年現在已經2023年根據這個2020年這個第二期社會住宅包租貸款計畫他的平均月租金也是很滿扣所以你一萬五一定是遠低於現在的租金的行情啦"},{"start":8889.628,"end":8889.848,"text":"民進黨團提議．．"},{"start":8908.977,"end":8932.055,"text":"那這個就是說是不是可以商榷一下就是說利用18萬的委事事實上那個租金是真的是跟現在的這個行情是完全不足的這個狀況那不然就跟我提案啦齁我唸一下好不好今天的協商結論唸一下"},{"start":8937.225,"end":8939.229,"text":"這個有關於這個第一案的部分齁"},{"start":8941.581,"end":8967.407,"text":"第9條第11條條文及第25條立法說明如何附協商內容第2、第5條實在力量黨團提案增訂第5條之一第6條保留送院會處理3、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過4、本案院會進行處理時協商通過部分先讀後均予以通過"},{"start":8968.789,"end":8997.521,"text":"保留部分 均暫保留保留部分 院會進行處理前由各黨團推派一人依時代力量黨團台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團民進黨黨團順序輪流發言每人發言時間為三分鐘鐘發言完畢後各該保留條文均不再發言並依上開黨團順序進行各保留條文黨版版本黨團版本之處理好 那再來是"},{"start":8998.294,"end":9004.921,"text":"第二案跟第三案 我也在這邊認一下印來看看吧 要提案吧那第二案第三案"},{"start":9020.953,"end":9022.314,"text":"上述兩案,宴會並案處理,第十七條,照協商內容通過如何付?"},{"start":9039.775,"end":9044.237,"text":"要諾硯陽針的版本大家跟我們簽啦,我會把版本備託好不好?"},{"start":9060.023,"end":9060.503,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9418.374,"end":9435.609,"text":"一方面在溝通那一方面我在這邊有三個案宣布第一個案是外交國防一百二十六案那有關於這個組結議的部分就修正文字就修正那修正如乎就通過"},{"start":9437.564,"end":9437.784,"text":"主席"},{"start":9459.633,"end":9477.861,"text":"內政委員會 二十五案 會經黨團溝通以後有關主席議員作修正 修正如本表第四個部分就是耐世保委員"},{"start":9481.052,"end":9501.608,"text":"同意有賴世保委員提案的有關高等法院九十二、九十四、九十五、九十六、一零零、一零一、一零四七個案七個案跟高等法院有關係的這一個是同一側案另外"},{"start":9506.107,"end":9524.316,"text":"另外請高等法院繼續跟民眾溝通除了這個以外已經協商刪除的部分會出案"},{"start":9525.865,"end":9525.945,"text":"主席"},{"start":9551.591,"end":9552.331,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"149047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e265b6cc7a468d4f056be509c1802f8863c986728e607a0322f3c13d40c4121fb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖國棟Sufin‧Siluko","委員發言時間":"11:17:54 - 11:20:12","影片長度":"00:02:18","會議時間":"2023-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 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謝謝主席還有全體國人"},{"start":8.783,"end":36.71,"text":"很欣慰軍事營區安全維護條例可以在本屆完成三讀臺灣民眾黨重視軍事營區安全的維護以及人民權益的保障因此提出本黨團草案版本參與審查未來除可強化軍事營區的安全同時將各項涉及人民權益的措施提升至法律未接的規範使符合法律保留原則以確保民眾權益而且達成"},{"start":38.29,"end":62.49,"text":"國軍建軍備戰與防衛國家的安全目的有鑒於兩岸情勢的惡化中共對我方重要營區的窺探日益增加以及過去常有假裝軍事民刻意透過無線電監聽塔台通訊掌握軍機起降時間並在軍機場跑道拍攝戰機起降等行為或是隨隊拍攝國軍地面部隊演習時"},{"start":63.391,"end":88.376,"text":"以及未經許可之下自行追蹤拍攝重大演訓或是刻意騷擾軍事營區等情勢無法有效因應處理因此今天的軍事營區安全維護條例的三讀至關重要未來除可依立法立即處置並可事後追溯防範相關影片、照片等不當刊登媒體或社群同時包含"},{"start":90.076,"end":110.422,"text":"網路地圖等應用軟體也不得任意揭露我國軍事營區的不妨情形不過本案的審查也凸顯容易使民眾入罪的疑慮有待國防部進一步完善明確各項執法明確以有故意犯案之動機者為懲戒標的並達成有效防制對岸情報"},{"start":111.522,"end":129.977,"text":"工作人員的滲透行為為立法目標在本案完成三讀之後相關的執法草案預告發布前均依照規定通報相關行政院審查以確保事切周延最後再表達本黨團簽字同意協商也謝謝所有的委員同意"}]}},{"id":"149044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e2b8beba7b907627f26be509c1802f8863c986728e607a0322bbaac45826d34c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"10:56:52 - 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-18","duration":128,"end_time":"2023-12-18T10:18:03+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-18T10:15:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":694,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（10時16分）主席蔡副院長、各位同仁、各位媒體朋友。今天陸海空軍刑法第五十四條修正草案通過，陸海空軍刑法第一條規定「現役軍人犯本法之罪者，依本法處罰」，過去我們的第五十四條只有針對酒駕所謂的酒精濃度跟其他服用麻醉藥品等做出處分，而本次的修正是把「施用毒品而其尿液經檢驗判定為陽性」或者「有前款以外之情事足以認定施用毒品導致不能安全駕駛」列入。","我們相信在這個時代，大家對於反毒都非常有共識，所以在陸海空軍刑法第五十四條今天修正案通過的同時，我們希望對於所謂的現役軍人要有更多的宣導以及防制措施，避免相關的現役軍人違反此條。當然，大家都非常重視現在的反毒，所以在這個部分，我們也希望國防部以及相關單位能夠加強對於我們軍人的軍法教育，尤其在施用毒品這一個部分能夠給予更多的宣導以及教育，致使未來的國軍能夠避免觸犯相關陸海空軍刑法，尤其在這個部分，特別對於駕駛相關交通工具而會影響其他人生命財產安全的時候，我們應該有更好的防範措施。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請邱臣遠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra 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完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.90596875,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.37284375,"end":126.76221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.994,"end":19.308,"text":"主席、蔡副院長、各位同仁、各位媒體朋友我想今天陸海空軍刑法第54條修正草案的通過"},{"start":21.104,"end":41.902,"text":"都海工軍刑法的第一條規定現役軍人犯本法者依本法處罰而過去我們的54條裡面只有針對相關的酒駕所謂的酒精濃度跟其他服用麻醉藥品等來作出處分"},{"start":42.623,"end":70.19,"text":"而本次的修正是把施用毒品而其尿液經檢驗判定為陽性或者有錢款以外的情勢足以認定施用毒品導致不能安全駕駛列入我們相信在這個時代裡面大家對於反毒都非常的有共識所以在《陸海空軍刑法》第54條今天修正案"},{"start":71.01,"end":95.294,"text":"通過的同時我們希望對於所謂的現役軍人要有更多的宣導以及防制的措施避免相關的現役軍人違反此條當然大家都非常重視現在的反讀所以在這個部分裡面我們也希望國防部以及相關的單位"},{"start":95.874,"end":113.388,"text":"能夠加強對於我們軍人軍法教育尤其在施用毒品的這一個部分能夠給予更多的宣導以及教育致使我們未來的國軍能夠避免觸犯相關陸海空軍刑法"},{"start":113.928,"end":125.954,"text":"尤其在這個部分裡面特別對於駕駛相關交通工具而會影響了其他人的生命財產安全的時候我們應該有更好的防範措施謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e254b1cc190bcb5d016be509c1802f8863c986728e607a03223339572f347eb8855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱臣遠","委員發言時間":"10:09:11 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謝謝主席還有全體國人同胞很高興公教人員保險法第36條條文修正草案今天完成三讀通過將原本規定必須在投保後受孕之分娩及早產才能勤領的生育給付的規定進一步放寬為只要在投保時間內都可以勤領兌現0到6歲國家養的友善生育政策"},{"start":43.36,"end":72.707,"text":"臺灣民眾黨立院黨團有鑒於現有社會之預付制度針對生育給付雖有自相關規定但目前各種嫌腫的給付條件卻僅限參加該保險且符合投保滿一定日期之規定者如若被保險人於投保期間轉換社會預付之保險制度將因不符合其投保期日條件而無法領取任何生育給付因此"},{"start":73.167,"end":98.315,"text":"提出修正取消年資的限制以保障新進投保人員及得享有生育給付對於鼓勵生產的立法精神有較廣的適用性對此本席在109年就同步提出公教人員保險法第36條農民健康保險法第24條及勞工保險法第31條條文等三下修法的提案因此對於今天的"},{"start":99.255,"end":116.504,"text":"公教人員保險法的三讀感到特別欣慰這也是繼修正農保條例之後第二個放寬生育給付的勤領條件限制的法案補足法規相關的漏洞 落實友善育兒環境跟育兒政策的重要法案"},{"start":117.364,"end":137.346,"text":"本席要在這邊呼籲勞動部也應該在下屆競速完成修法取消生育給付的投保時間限制最後 針對上次農保條例已經同步修正提高生育給付為三個月很遺憾在這次的審查中未將本黨第二次提案版本納入希望未來可以改進 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e2269cc0c1a0064ec56be509c1802f8863c986728e607a0322b4a4c75fd7d343585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"10:06:56 - 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-18","duration":124,"end_time":"2023-12-18T10:09:00+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-18T10:06:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":626,"blocks":[["李委員德維：（10時7分）主席蔡副院長、各位同仁、各位媒體朋友。今天公教人員保險法第三十六條的修正，當然加強了婦女請領生育相關保險的保障。過去我們的公教人員保險法、勞工保險條例等相關條例，對於生理婦女於社會風險發生時保障生養所得支出都有相關的一些保障，但是各該生育給付的條件僅限參加其保險制度，而後參加者並未符合其參加投保期日的條件就沒有辦法領取任何的生育補助，實在是立法的缺失！","所以這次包含林思銘以及陳玉珍等6位委員提案修正通過的相關內容，當然特別地補強了一個部分。第三十六條第一項所列舉的各項要件期日，將曾參加公教人員保險或其他社會保險使其投保總年資合併計算，藉由生育給付的體系完善化，使得被保險人轉換社會保險的保險體系沒有後顧之憂，更對於社會的生育率有提高意願，避免國家長期的少子化進而導致財政、產業的社會問題衝擊。","我想在這個部分，對於相關的公教人員保險法能夠在這個部分有所突破，相信對於現在少子化的問題以及對於我們婦女相關的保障都有所助益，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請邱臣遠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra 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完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.89034375,"end":122.66159375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.919,"end":24.244,"text":"主席、財富院長、各位同仁、各位媒體朋友我想今天公教人員保險法第36條的修正當然加強了我們的婦女在生育相關勤領的保險的保障"},{"start":24.924,"end":45.396,"text":"我想過去我們的公教人員保險法勞工保險條例等相關條例對於生理婦女對於社會風險發生時所謂保障生養所謂的支出都有相關的一些保障但是各該生育給付的條件僅限參加其保險制度"},{"start":45.936,"end":74.527,"text":"而後參加者並未符合其參加投保日期日的條件就沒有辦法領取任何的生育補助實在是立法的缺失所以這一次包含林思明以及陳玉珍等6位委員所提案修正通過的相關的內容當然特別的補強了一個部分那第36條第一項所列舉的各項的要件期日"},{"start":75.968,"end":96.449,"text":"將曾參加公教人員保險或其他社會保險使其投保總年資合併計劃藉由生育給付的體系完善化使得被保險人轉換社會保險的保險體系沒有後顧之憂更對於社會的生育率有提高意願"},{"start":97.129,"end":121.969,"text":"而避免國家長期的少子化進而導致財政、產業的社會問題衝擊我想在這個部分我們對於相關的公教人員保險法能夠在這個部分有所突破相信對於現在少子化的問題以及對於我們婦女相關的保障都有所注意謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e2cd2686a0b7bf6e416be509c1802f8863c986728e607a032204f966d313e88c125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游毓蘭","委員發言時間":"09:31:04 - 09:33:08","影片長度":"00:02:04","會議時間":"2023-12-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 \n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-18","duration":124,"end_time":"2023-12-18T09:33:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-18T09:31:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":104,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（9時31分）主席、各位同仁大家早安。今天三讀通過槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例部分條文修正草案，增訂槍砲彈藥的主要組成零件材質及殺傷力的認定基準，由中央主管機關公告。很遺憾未採用本席的主張──經槍砲彈藥審認爭議諮詢小組審議後，再由中央主管機關公告之，而非由行政機關單獨認定。本席期盼主管機關日後能徵詢各界專家、學者甚至相關團體的意見，秉公正、客觀的立場加以認定，並參採國際標準與時俱進，以杜各界的疑慮。","另外，本席修法主張爭議諮詢小組的組成應該遴聘相關機關代表及專家學者，而且外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的二分之一。雖然內政部林右昌部長在委員會審查時支持本席看法，並建議調整外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的三分之一，但卻未明定於修正的條文中，相關的組織運作則授權由中央主管機關定之。希望日後訂定相關子法時能夠確實明文規定外界委員的比例，以維護審議的專業、中立、客觀。","本條例雖然三讀通過，但部分民間團體仍有疑義。本席希望主管機關能夠多加與民眾溝通、消弭爭議、明確執法。願天佑臺灣、人民平安。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請廖國棟委員、廖國棟委員、廖國棟委員不在。","繼續進行討論事項第五案。","五、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員莊瑞雄等17人及委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案。（本案經提本院第10屆第8會期第9次會議報告決定：交內政委員會審查。茲接報告，爰於本次會議提出討論。）"],["主席：請宣讀審查報告。","立法院內政委員會函","受文者：議事處","發文日期：中華民國112年12月11日","發文字號：台立內字第1124002372號","速別：普通件","密等及解密條件或保密期限：","附件：如說明二","主旨：院會交付審查委員莊瑞雄等17人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，業經併案審查完竣復請查照，提報院會公決。","說明：","一、復貴處112年12月06日台立議字第1120703876號、112年12月06日台立議字第1120703878號函。","二、附審查報告乙份（含條文對照表）。","正本：議事處","副本：內政委員會","併案審查本院委員莊瑞雄等17人及委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」審查報告","一、本院委員莊瑞雄等17人及委員蔡易餘等16人提案，均經本院第10屆第8會期第9次會議（112年11月24日）報告後決定：「交內政委員會審查。」。","二、本院內政委員會於112年12月7日（星期四）召開第10屆第8會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議，審查該二草案；由內政委員會羅召集委員美玲擔任主席，除邀請提案委員說明提案要旨，並邀請相關機關列席報告並備質詢。有莊瑞雄委員說明提案要旨，內政部部長林右昌、海洋委員會政務副主任委員周美伍報告、及大陸委員會、國防部、交通部、法務部、農業部等相關機關代表列席並備質詢。","三、委員莊瑞雄等17人提案要旨：","為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第三十八條第二項但書規定，爰擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，針對該條第三項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範。","四、委員蔡易餘等16人提案要旨：","鑑於中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法自民國八十七年一月二十一日制定公布以來，歷經一次修正，最近一次修正公布為民國一百十年一月二十七日。為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第三十八條第二項但書規定，爰擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，針對該條第三項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範。","(一)民國111年4月26日海洋委員會海巡署於澎湖七美西南方五十四浬查獲華益九號抽砂船違法盜砂，民國112年1月10日橋頭地院判決，船長處有期徒刑一年十個月，沒收抽砂船。針對上述判決，船長於民國112年2月3日提出上訴，臺灣高等法院高雄分院於民國112年8月10日開庭審議船長維持原判，惟抽砂船部分因無證據證明船主為共犯，不符供犯罪所用之物須屬「犯罪行為人」之要件，爰撤銷抽砂船沒收之判決。有關前述撤銷抽砂船沒收之判決，臺灣高等檢察署高雄檢察分署已於民國112年8月24日提出上訴，顯見為有效防堵抽砂船違法抽砂之行為，本條有修正之必要性。","(二)為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，本條前於民國110年1月27日修正公布，除大幅提高罰責外，並針對經判決沒收確定之犯罪用船舶或其他機械設備，訂有相關去化措施；為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依《刑法》第三十八條第二項但書規定，修正本條第三項，增列「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範。","五、內政部書面報告：","主席、各位委員女士、先生：","首先感謝各位委員對內政業務的關注與指導，今天大院內政委員會召開會議審查大院委員提案之中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條修正草案，本人應邀前來報告並備質詢，甚感榮幸及感謝。謹將本部意見說明如次，敬請委員參考：","有關莊瑞雄委員等17人、蔡易餘委員等16人提出，因刑法第38條第2項規定「供犯罪所用、犯罪預備之物或犯罪所生之物，屬於犯罪行為人者，得沒收之。但有特別規定者，依其規定。」故現行司法實務上，已有因無證據證明船主為共犯，不符供犯罪所用之物屬「犯罪行為人」之要件，而撤銷抽砂船沒收之判決；為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰提案修正「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」第18條條文，針對第3項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備法令規範。本部對本次修法，予以尊重。惟案涉檢察官偵查起訴實務及法官自由裁量權，是否透過修法限縮法院裁量空間，本部尊重協商共識。","六、大陸委員會書面報告：","主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生：","承蒙貴委員會邀請，就併案審查「(一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案及(二)委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案之相關內容進行報告，以下謹提出本會說明，敬請各位委員指教。","(一)為加強遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，本會支持本次修法，進一步完備法令規範","1.為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條（下稱本條）條文前於110年1月27日修正公布，大幅提高刑責，並針對經判決沒收確定之犯罪用船舶或其他機械設備，訂有相關去化措施。據海洋委員會海巡署統計，我方於離島海域驅離及查扣陸籍越界抽（運）砂船艘次，自110年逐年顯著下降，至本（112）年9月底為止，於馬祖及澎湖海域驅離越界抽砂之陸船艘次，均已降至個位數，金門海域則幾無陸方抽砂船蹤跡，研判係因修法重罰產生遏阻實效，且海巡署持續加強執法力度所致。","2.惟考量實務上常見犯罪行為人以抗辯非船東、僅係租用抽砂船舶等手法逃避查緝，為防杜爾後越界抽砂情事死灰復燃，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有以規避刑責，爰依刑法第38條第2項但書規定，本次委員所提兩版本，重點均在修正本條第3項，增列「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」等內容，以完備其法令規範，本會敬表支持。","(二)本會將持續循兩岸既有機制，提供陸方相關事證，並呼籲對岸約束其所屬的船舶及人員，勿放任陸船越界作業，善盡維護海洋資源的責任","為遏阻陸籍船舶在我方海域違法抽砂，除海巡署就帶回留置陸籍船員事項請法務部向陸方進行通報外，本會亦均循例透過兩岸既有機制，要求陸方有關部門應加強約束其所屬人員及船舶，切勿放任陸船越界抽砂，並請陸方協調有關部門，積極配合協同執法，以保障離島居民權益，維護海洋環境與資源。","七、海洋委員會書面報告：","主席、各位委員女士、先生，大家好：","海洋委員會（以下簡稱本會）成立以來，承蒙大院委員支持及指教，使得各項海洋事務循序推展，在此表達至高的謝忱。","針對本日排審之「專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」，感謝大院的關切與重視，並優先納入審議排程，本日應邀提出報告及說明，敬請各位委員惠予支持，不吝指導。","(一)前言","臺灣是民主國家，司法獨立，必須尊重法官臨案盱衡的裁量權，而判決的法律見解不同，會造成判決落差過大，例如，本會海巡署於同（111）年查扣之「展盛98號」及「華益9號」兩艘抽砂船是否沒收判決，臺灣高等法院高雄分院與福建連江地方法院因所持之法律見解不同，導致兩案要件相當，卻有完全相反之判決。","福建連江地方法院於111年度訴字第2號刑事判決提及，船長對於其駕駛船舶航行時所管領航行於水域之船舶具有高度之事實上處分權。扣案之「展盛98號」抽砂船屬犯罪所用之物，如僅將船上人員判刑而未將船隻（生財工具）併予處置，則對於幕後操縱犯罪之人而言，其犯罪成本遠低於可能獲得之暴利，將無法遏止此類犯罪，自應依「刑法」第38條第2項前段規定，於其罪刑項下諭知沒收系爭船舶，藉以剝奪其事實上處分權，以預防並遏止犯罪。","而臺灣高等法院高雄分院112年度上訴字第144刑事判決提及，針對「華益9號」抽砂船無從認定船舶所有人為本案之共同正犯，且船長基於職務對於船舶航行之職權行使，尚與關於船舶本身財產價值之事實上處分權無關，更與「刑法」第38條第2項規定沒收供犯罪所用之物，必須「屬於犯罪行為人者」之要件不合，爰撤銷沒收之判決，不予宣告沒收。","大陸抽砂船違法抽砂破壞我國海域生態環境甚鉅，為有效防堵抽砂船違法抽砂之行為，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，本次大院委員針對「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」提案修法，就其犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，讓遂行抽砂這種惡行的船舶，不問是否為行為人所有，都應予沒收，除可有效嚇阻違法抽砂行為外，更能完備海巡機關執行工作時所需法制。","(二)結語","大陸抽砂船體積龐大，而我海巡艦艇體積相對較小，我海巡同仁冒著生命危險執法，然而所查扣之抽砂船，因法官法律見解不同，卻有完全相反之判決，將造成未來海巡第一線同仁執法窒礙。","本次「專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」之修正，應可更完備法令規範，避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有而規避罰責，並期藉犯罪用船舶或其機械設備之沒收，提升遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為之效。","以上報告敬請指教，並祝各位委員身體健康，萬事如意。謝謝！","八、國防部書面報告：","主席、各位委員先進：","今天大院內政委員會審查行政院函請審議，相關委員提案之「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法部分條文」修正草案條文第十八條，增訂供前項犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之；其經判決沒收確定者，得視個案情節需要拍賣或變賣，有關修正條文增訂內容，本部敬表尊重。","國軍運用聯合情監偵系統，加強掌控越界船舶早期預警，並與海巡署保持聯繫與情資交換；另視海巡署需求，適時協助支援，謝謝！","九、交通部書面報告：","(一)前言","主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生：","今天應邀列席貴委員會，就貴委員會審查委員莊委員瑞雄等、蔡委員易餘等相關委員擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」共2案修正提案，提出本部建議供貴委員會參採，謹報告說明如後，敬請指教。","(二)相關委員提案修正重點及本部建議處理意見","有關莊委員瑞雄等、蔡委員易餘等相關委員擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法」第十八條條文修正草案，針對該條第三項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否」等內容，以完備其法令規範部分，涉及本條第2項未經許可，以船舶或其他機械設備方式，在中華民國專屬經濟海域或大陸礁層採取土石者之行為，本部尊重主管機關內政部處理意見。","(三)結語","綜上說明，本部感佩相關委員之提案，併謹提供本部建議處理意見，尚請各位委員參考。謝謝！","十、法務部書面報告：","主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生：","今天奉邀列席　大院貴委員會審查「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」等2案代表本部列席報告，並備質詢，茲報告如下，敬請指教：","(一)有關委員莊瑞雄、游毓蘭等17人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案","1.提案重點","為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第38條第2項但書規定，就中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條第3項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」之文字，以完備法令規範。","2.本部意見","上開草案就是類供犯罪之用之船舶或其他機械設備，改採絕對主義沒收原則，以避免困難以舉證屬於被告所有而無法沒收，致使行為人再利用此等犯罪工具而為犯罪行為，本部敬表贊同。","(二)有關委員蔡易餘、莊瑞雄、林靜儀等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」案","1.提案重點","為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂船或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，爰依刑法第38條第2項但書規定，就中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條第3項所定犯罪用之船舶或其他機械設備，增訂「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」之文字，以完備法令規範。","2.本部意見","本部敬表贊同，理由同前所述。","以上報告，敬請主席及各位委員指教。","十一、農業部書面報告：","主席、各位委員女士、先生：","有關大院內政委員會審查委員莊瑞雄等17人、委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」，以下謹就草案中涉及本部業務部分予以說明，敬請不吝指教。","(一)「中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第十八條條文修正草案」條文意見","1.為有效遏阻抽砂船違法抽砂行為，本條文前經行政院邀集各相關部會進行多次討論後，於110年1月27日修正公布，除大幅提高罰則外，並針對經判決確定之犯罪用船舶或其他機械設備，訂定除拍賣或變賣外，並可經專案報准後，留供公用、廢棄或其他適當處置等去化措施。","2.本次為避免犯罪行為人主張所用之抽砂或器具非屬其所有規避罰責，增列「不問屬於犯罪行為人與否，沒收之」等內容，完備本條文之規範，有助於防杜抽砂行為而影響魚類棲息環境，本部支持。","3.針對沒入之違法抽砂船舶相關去化作為，本部已規劃適合投放大型船礁之礁區，將配合海洋委員會進行去化處置，共同維護我國海域生態與環境資源。","(二)結語","本案修正目的係為完備法規規範，以避免犯罪行為人規避罰責，本部敬表支持。","十二、112年12月7日報告及詢答完畢，旋即進行審查。與會委員於聽取說明及詢答後，感認有修法之必要，應予支持。經縝密討論後，爰將全案審查完竣，擬具審查報告，提報院會討論；院會討論前，不須交由黨團協商，並推請羅召集委員美玲於院會討論時作補充說明。","十三、檢附條文對照表1份。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["蔡其昌","鄭天財Sra 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完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.30409375,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.91659375,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.48159375,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.48909375,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.454093750000006,"end":53.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.220968750000004,"end":54.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.40221875,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.76909375,"end":110.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.00096875000001,"end":122.99909375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.335,"end":26.408,"text":"主席各位同仁大家早安今天三讀通過槍砲彈藥刀切管制條例部分條文修正草案整理槍砲彈藥的主要組成零件材質及殺傷力的認定基準由中央主管機關公告很遺憾為採用本席的主張經槍砲彈藥審認爭議"},{"start":30.451,"end":44.316,"text":"諮詢小組審議後再由中央主管機關公告之﹐而非由行政機關單獨認定本期期盼主管機關日後能徵詢﹐各界專家學者甚至相關團體的意見﹐"},{"start":47.036,"end":68.981,"text":"並公正、客觀的立場加以認定．參採國際標準與時俱進．渡各界疑慮本席修法主張爭議諮詢小組的組成．應聘相關機關代表及專家學者．外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的二分之一．"},{"start":69.701,"end":91.935,"text":"雖然內政部林佑昌部長在委員會審查時支持本席看法並建議調整外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的三分之一但卻未明定於修正的條文中相關的組織運作則授權由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":92.595,"end":110.191,"text":"希望日後訂定相關執法時﹐能確實明文規定外界委員的比例﹐以維護審議的專業、中立、客觀本條例雖然三讀通過﹐但部分民間團體仍有疑議"},{"start":111.112,"end":121.986,"text":"本席希望主管機關能夠多加與民眾溝通消弭爭議明確執法願天佑台灣人民平安謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/82fae47d7884a3e25e012356041dad446be509c1802f8863c986728e607a03220300be7979f504765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財 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第一項 第四項 第186條 第186條之一 第一項 第四項 第187條 第224條 第231條之一 第二項 第271條 第三項 第272條 第273條 第274條 第275條 第277條 第一項 第279條 第281條 第282條 第296條 第298條"},{"start":2111.409,"end":2113.55,"text":"第302條 第1項 第3項 第303條 第304條 第305條 第321條 第325條 第1項 第3項 第326條 第328條 第5項 第346條或第347條 第4項"},{"start":2127.635,"end":2148.708,"text":"2、森林法第51條、第二項第52條、第53條、第二項或第54條3、野生動物保育法第40條、第41條或第42條但與中華民國106年6月14日修正公布之本條文實行前基於原住民族之傳統文化、經營或非營利自用而犯《野生動物保育法》"},{"start":2149.128,"end":2155.217,"text":"第41條知罪者不在此限本條例第9條、第12條、第1項、第2項、第4項、第5項、第13條、第2項、第4項、第5項、第13條之一、第20條之一、第3項之第5項、第14條或第15條"},{"start":2165.551,"end":2178.981,"text":"陳志走私條例第2條、第3條或第7條、6組織犯罪防事條例第3條、第1項後段或第6條、7毒品危害防事條例第4條、第5項、第6項、第5條、第4項、第7條、第2項、第3項、第4項、第5項、第8條、第10條、第11條、第13條、第14條或第15條宣讀完畢召考審查會條文通過增訂第5條之3"},{"start":2190.765,"end":2215.778,"text":"第五條之三 中央主管機關為槍砲彈藥審認正義．臨聘派相關機關各代表及專家學者組成槍砲彈藥審認正義諮詢小組．其組織及運作方式由中央主管機關定制宣傳完畢照審查會條文通過第六條之一 第七條 第八條均維持現行條文 增訂第九條之一"},{"start":2216.363,"end":2230.543,"text":"第9條之一其第7條第一項所列槍炮於公共場所公眾的出入這場所開槍射擊或朝公共場所公眾的出入這場所開槍射擊者處7年上有期徒刑並科新台幣1500萬元效罰金"},{"start":2232.526,"end":2261.2,"text":"指第8條第一項或第9條第一項所列槍炮與公共場所、公眾的出入之場所開槍射擊或從公共場所、公眾的出入之場所開槍射擊者出物年上12年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣1000萬元下發金但原住民族基於傳統文化、技藝、非營利、自用、獵捕野生動物者不在此限犯前二項之罪請結經委者得減輕其刑"},{"start":2261.961,"end":2264.47,"text":"宣傳完畢照審查會條文通過第12條維持現行條文第13條"},{"start":2268.086,"end":2295.826,"text":"第13條未經許可製造販賣或運輸槍炮或各類炮彈炸彈爆裂物質主要組成零件者處3年上10年下有期徒刑並科新台幣700萬元下罰金未經許可轉讓出租或出借前項零件者處1年上7年下有期徒刑並科新台幣500萬元下罰金意圖供自己或他人犯罪之用而犯嫌惡上之罪者處5年上有期徒刑"},{"start":2296.466,"end":2317.408,"text":"並科新台幣1000萬元下罰金未經許可持有既存貨意圖販賣而成列第一項所列零件者處6月以上5年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣300萬元下罰金第一項至第三項之未遂分罰之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過增訂第13條之一"},{"start":2317.847,"end":2341.924,"text":"第13條之一未經許可製造販賣或運輸子彈主要組成零件者處6個月以上5年下有期徒刑並科新台幣300萬元下罰金未經許可轉讓出租或出借前項零件者處3年下有期徒刑並科新台幣200萬元下罰金意圖供自己或他人犯罪之用而犯情惡傷之罪者處1年上7年下有期徒刑"},{"start":2342.524,"end":2362.782,"text":"並科新台幣500萬元下罰金未經許可﹚持有既存貨意圖販賣﹚而陳列第一項所列零件者﹚處一年下有期徒刑﹚並科新台幣100萬元下罰金﹚請接輕違者得免除期刑第一項至第三項之未遂犯罰之宣讀完畢召考審查會條文通過第18條"},{"start":2363.888,"end":2385.607,"text":"第18條本本條例之罪自首並報告其持有之全部槍砲彈藥刀械者﹐得減刑或免除其刑﹐其已移轉持有而據實公訴﹐全部槍砲彈藥刀械之來源或去向﹐因而查獲者亦同前項情形與中央主管機關報經行政院合併辦理公告期間自首者﹐免除其刑"},{"start":2386.648,"end":2415.775,"text":"前二項情形及報酬不實者不實部分仍依本條例所定之罪論處犯本條例之罪與偵查或審判中自白並公訴全部槍砲彈藥刀下之來源及去向應有查獲或因而防止重大危害事件之發生者得檢清或免除其刑拒絕公訴或公訴不實者得加重其刑至三分之一宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第20條之一"},{"start":2416.209,"end":2435.004,"text":"第20條之一具類似追槍之外形構造材質及火藥式即發機關機構裝置且足以改造成具有殺傷力者為模擬槍模擬槍及其主要組成零件由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關公告查竟"},{"start":2435.724,"end":2450.552,"text":"請向公告查禁止模擬槍及其主要組成零件不得製造、分賣、運輸、轉讓、出租、出借、持有、計算或成列但專攻外銷、研發並經警察機關許可或影視攝影"},{"start":2452.793,"end":2481.353,"text":"設置使用經中央目的事業主管機關可轉中央主管機關許可且列冊已被集合者不在此限未經許可製作販賣或運輸第一項公告查禁制模擬槍者處一年上七年下有期徒刑並科新台幣700萬元下罰金未經許可轉賬出租出借持有計算或意圖販賣而選列第一項公告查禁制模擬槍者處一年下有期徒刑並科新台幣200萬元下罰金"},{"start":2482.413,"end":2506.829,"text":"改造第一項公告查禁之模擬槍可供發射金屬或子彈未具下傷利者處3年下有期徒刑並科新台幣300萬元下罰金公告查禁前已持有第一項模擬槍及其主要組成零件之人民或團體因此公告查禁就日期6個月內向警察機關報備與期限內完成報備者其持有之行為不罰"},{"start":2508.618,"end":2536.573,"text":"第二項單書有關專攻外銷研發許可之申請程序應備文件條件期限廢止定期查核及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定之第二項單書有關影視設置使用許可之申請程序應備文件條件期限廢止及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會同中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":2538.82,"end":2558.307,"text":"正好審查會條文通過徵定第20條之二第20條之二為經許可製造販賣或運輸前條第一項公告查禁制模擬箱主要組成零件者除新台幣100萬元以上1000萬元下發還其情節衝突者得並令其停止營業或勒令歇業"},{"start":2559.927,"end":2587.782,"text":"未經許可轉帳出租出借持有其殘貨意圖販賣而陳列前條第一項公告查禁式模擬槍主要組成零件者除新台幣20萬元上500萬元下返還其情節重大者的並令其停止營業或勒令歇業公告查禁模擬槍之主要組成零件不問屬於何人所有莫入之但有前條第二項單數或同條第六項情形者不在此限宣讀外幣"},{"start":2589.482,"end":2614.902,"text":"召審查會條文通過徵定第20條之三第20條之三警察機關為查查槍炮彈藥公告查監製模擬槍及其主要組成零件的派員進入槍炮彈藥及模擬槍製造、儲存或販賣場所就其零組件、成品、半成品、各種布測及其他必要物件實施檢查並得詢問關係人及另提供必要之資料"},{"start":2615.802,"end":2634.994,"text":"前項檢查必要時﹐得會同目的事業主管機關執行之檢查人員於執行第一項規定之檢查任務時﹐應主動出示執行局務之證明文件﹐並不得妨礙該場所正常業務之進行未必妨礙或拒絕第一項之檢查﹐詢問或提供資料者﹐處信貸幣20萬元以上50萬元下發還﹐並得按次處罰及強制執行檢查"},{"start":2639.917,"end":2653.061,"text":"第一項檢查之人員檢查處所對象檢查物品範圍實施程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第22條維持現行條文第25條"},{"start":2656.363,"end":2681.833,"text":"第25條本條例除中華民國98年5月27日修正公佈之條文自98年11月23日施行109年6月10日修正公佈之第20條第3項112年12月18日修正之第13條之一及第20條之二之施行日期由行政院另訂外自公佈日施行宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過全案經過"},{"start":2683.206,"end":2691.67,"text":"全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提依繼續進行三讀請務院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀這條文第四條本條例所稱槍砲彈藥刀械如下一槍砲指制式或非制式制火砲堅設武器、機關槍、衝鋒槍、卡柄槍、自動步槍、普通步槍、馬槍、手槍、鋼皮槍、瓦斯槍、麻醉槍、獵槍、空氣槍、魚槍及其他可發射金屬或子彈具有傷傷力之各式槍砲"},{"start":2713.821,"end":2725.774,"text":"二、彈藥指前款鋼石槍砲所使用之砲彈、子彈及其他具有殺傷力或破壞性之各類炸彈爆裂物三、刀械指武士刀、手杖刀、鴛鴦刀、手指虎、鋼鐵鞭"},{"start":2727.233,"end":2754.467,"text":"扁鑽匕首各如復讀歷史及其他經中央主管機關公告查竟非公正當使用具有殺傷力之刀械前項第一款第二款槍炮彈藥包括其主要組成零件但無法供組成槍炮彈藥之用者不在此限槍炮彈藥主要組成零件材質與種類及殺傷力之認定基準由中央主管機關公告之"},{"start":2757.25,"end":2786.168,"text":"第五條之二一本條例許可之槍砲彈藥刀械由下列前行之一者撤銷或廢止其許可其持有之槍砲彈藥刀械由中央主管機關給加收購但政府機關購置使用之槍砲彈藥刀械或違反本條例之罪者不予給加收購一許可原因消滅二不需致用或毀損至不堪使用三持有人喪失原住民或與民身份四持有人規避防驗或拒絕檢查"},{"start":2787.329,"end":2796.864,"text":"5.持有人死亡6.持有人受判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定且未經宣告緩刑或經宣告緩刑被撤銷"},{"start":2799.077,"end":2801.62,"text":"7.持有人受監護或輔助宣告尚未撤銷8."},{"start":2801.62,"end":2805.924,"text":"持有槍炮彈藥刀械之團體解散9."},{"start":2805.924,"end":2817.716,"text":"其他違反應遵行事項之規定刀械持有人死亡團體解散重新申請許可持有者或自製獵槍持有人死亡其機用人申請繼續持有者"},{"start":2818.617,"end":2836.728,"text":"經許可後不予給價收購前項自治列槍即用人以享有法定繼承全人之一人為限但無行為能力忍者不得申請繼續持有未成年人之繼承及使用之相關規定令由中央原住民族主管機關定之"},{"start":2837.308,"end":2856.085,"text":"第一項給價收購經費由中央主管機關逐年編列預算之印其價格標準由中央主管機關定之並為由直轄市縣市政府執行第一項收購之槍砲彈藥刀械及收腳之陣仗由中央主管機關送交內政部警戰署銷毀當今流用者不予銷毀"},{"start":2857.506,"end":2870.385,"text":"第1項第6款規定與今許可持有自制列槍或語唱之原住民以及故意犯罪輕本行為三領上有期徒刑之罪或犯下列規定之一之罪違憲使用之"},{"start":2872.274,"end":2875.275,"text":"1.新法第185條之二 第一項 第四項 第186條 第186條之一 第一項 第四項 第187條 第224條 第231條之一 第二項 第271條 第三項 第272條 第273條 第274條 第275條 第277條 第一項 第279條 第281條 第282條"},{"start":2895.862,"end":2900.967,"text":"第296條 第298條 第302條 第1項 第3項 第303條 第304條 第305條 第321條 第325條 第1項 第3項 第326條 第328條 第5項 第346條或第347條 第4項而森林法第51條 第2項 第52條 第53條 第2項或第54條"},{"start":2920.506,"end":2939.926,"text":"野生動物保育法第40條、第41條或第42條但於中華民國106年6月14日修正公布之本條文實行前即與原住民組織傳統文化、技藝或非營利自由而犯《野生動物保育法》第41條之罪者不在此限"},{"start":2941.908,"end":2950.132,"text":"4.本條例第9條、第12條、第1項、第2項、第4項、第5項、第13條、第2項、第4項、第5項、第13條之一、第20條之一、第3項之第5項、第14條或第15條5.陳正走私條例第2條、第3條或第7條6.組織犯罪防止條例第3條、第1項後段或第6條"},{"start":2963.618,"end":2967.92,"text":"7.毒病危害防治條例第4條、第5項、第6項、第5條、第4項、第7條、第2項、第3項、第4項、第5項、第8條、第10條、第11條、第13條、第14條或第15條"},{"start":2977.168,"end":2986.358,"text":"第5條 中央主管機關為槍炮彈藥審認爭議﹐得林聘派相關機關各代表及專家學者﹐組成槍炮彈藥審認爭議諮詢小組﹐其組織及運作方式由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":2995.595,"end":3008.951,"text":"第9條之一是第7條第一項所列槍炮與公共場所公眾的出入之場所開槍射擊或朝公共場所公眾的出入之場所開槍射擊者處7年上有期徒刑並科信貸幣1500萬元下罰金"},{"start":3011.854,"end":3039.315,"text":"持第8條第一項或第9條第一項所列槍炮與公共場所公送的出入之場所開槍射擊或朝公共場所公送的出入之場所開槍射擊者處5年以上12年下有期徒刑並科新台幣1000萬元下罰金但原住民族基於傳統文化、技藝非營利自用獵捕野生動物者不在此限犯嫌惡、想知罪、情節輕微者得減輕其刑"},{"start":3041.795,"end":3060.604,"text":"第13條未經許可製造販賣或運輸槍炮或隔壘、炮彈、炸彈、爆裂物資主調組成領遷者處3年上10年下有期徒刑並科新台幣700萬元下罰金未經許可轉賬出租或出借前項領遷者處1年上7年下有期徒刑"},{"start":3061.244,"end":3084.317,"text":"併科新台幣500萬元下罰金意圖供自己或他人犯罪之用而犯前二項之罪者處5年上有期徒刑併科新台幣1000萬元下罰金未清許可持有其藏或意圖販賣而傳列第一項所列領件者處6月上5年下有期徒刑併科新台幣300萬元下罰金第一項至第三項之未遂犯罰之"},{"start":3086.604,"end":3103.491,"text":"第13條之一未經許可製造販賣或運輸子彈主要組成零件者處6元以上5年下有期徒刑並科新台幣300萬元下罰金未經許可轉讓出租或出借前項零件者處3年下有期徒刑並科新台幣200萬元下罰金"},{"start":3105.752,"end":3129.364,"text":"依圖供自己或他人犯罪之用而犯前二項之罪者處一年上七年下有期徒刑並科新台幣500萬元下罰金未經許可持有計算或依圖販賣而陳列第一項所列領件者處一年下有期徒刑並科新台幣100萬元下罰金請接親衛者得免除期刑第一項之第三項之未遂犯罰之"},{"start":3131.058,"end":3153.861,"text":"第18條 犯本條例之罪自首﹐並報告其持有之全部槍砲彈藥刀械者﹐得減刑或免除棄刑﹐其已移轉持有而據實公訴﹐全部槍砲彈藥刀械者﹐來源或取向因而查獲者一同前項進行與中央主管金融報經行政院合併辦理公告﹐期間自首者免除棄刑"},{"start":3154.682,"end":3179.217,"text":"前二項起刑其抱腳不實者不實部分仍依本條例所定之罪論處但本條例之罪於偵查或審判中自白並公訴全部槍砲彈藥到下之來源及去向因而償獲或因而防止重大危害治安事件之發生者得減刑或免除起刑拒絕公訴或公訴不實者得加重起刑至三分之一"},{"start":3182.865,"end":3200.632,"text":"20.具類似追槍之外型構造材質及火藥式擊發機關機構裝置且足以改造成具有殺傷力者為模擬槍模擬槍及其主要組成零件由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關公告查竟"},{"start":3201.272,"end":3229.293,"text":"前項公告查禁制模擬槍及其主要組成零件不得製造、販賣、運輸、轉讓、出租、出借、持有、計存或陳列但專攻外銷、研發並經警察機關許可或影視設置使用經中央目的事業主管機關核轉中央主管機關許可且列冊已被集合者不在此限未經許可製造、販賣或運輸第一項公告查禁制模擬槍者處一年上七年下游期獨行"},{"start":3230.254,"end":3254.367,"text":"併科新台幣700萬元下罰金未兼許可轉賬、出租、出借、持有、計算或一度販賣而成立第一項公告查禁制模擬槍者處一年下有期徒刑併科新台幣200萬元下罰金改造第一項公告查禁制模擬槍可供發射金屬或子彈未居於殺傷例者處三年下有期徒刑併科新台幣300萬元下罰金"},{"start":3254.927,"end":3283.024,"text":"公告查禁前已持有第一項模擬槍及其主要組成零件之人民或團體因此公告查禁之日期6個月內向警察機關報備於期限內完成報備者其持有之行為不罰第二項單說有關專攻外銷研發許可之申請程序應備文件條件期限廢止定期查核及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":3284.105,"end":3297.385,"text":"第二項單說有關影視設置使用許可之申請程序應備文件條件期限配準及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會同中央主管機關定之"},{"start":3300.222,"end":3316.848,"text":"第20條之二未經許可製造販賣或運輸前條第一項公告查禁之模擬槍主要組成領件者處新台幣100萬元以上1000萬元相發還其緊接重大者得併令及停止營業或勒令協議"},{"start":3317.848,"end":3344.859,"text":"未經許可轉讓、出租、出借、持有、既存或易讀販賣而陳列前條第一項公告查禁之模擬槍主要組成零件者處新海幣20萬元上500萬元下發還其情節重大者得併令其停止營業或勒令歇業公告查禁模擬槍之主要組成零件不問屬於何人所有,莫入之但有前條第二項單述或同條第六項情形者不再次限"},{"start":3348.321,"end":3372.363,"text":"20.警察機關為查查槍砲彈藥公告查驚式模擬槍及其主要組成零件﹐得派員進入槍砲彈藥及模擬槍製造﹐儲存或販賣場所﹐就寫零組件、成品、半成品﹐各種目測及其他必要之物件實施檢查﹐並得詢問關係人及令提供必要之資料前向檢查必要時﹐得會同目的事業主管機關執行之"},{"start":3373.784,"end":3401.273,"text":"檢查人員於執行第一項規定之檢查任務時﹐應主動出示執行職務之證明文件﹐並不得妨礙該場所正常業務之進行﹐未必妨礙或拒絕第一項之檢查﹐詢問或提供資料者﹐處心合比20萬元上50萬元下罰款﹐並得按次處罰及強制執行檢查第一項檢查之人員檢查出所﹐對象﹐檢查物品﹐範圍﹐實施程序及其他應遵行事詳細辦法﹐"},{"start":3402.293,"end":3430.282,"text":"由中央主管機關定制第25條本條例處中華民國98年5月27日修正公佈之條文自98年11月23日施行109年6月10日修正公佈之第20條第3項112年12月18日修正之第13條之一及第20條之二之施行日期由行政院另定外自公佈日施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":3434.557,"end":3445.622,"text":"三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例增訂第5條之3、第9條之1、第13條之1、第20條之2及第20條之3條文並將第4條、第5條之2、第13條、第18條、第20條之1及第25條條文修正通過"},{"start":3462.079,"end":3469.073,"text":"本案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言首先請鄭天才委員發言並截止發言登記"},{"start":3488.837,"end":3516.785,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位媒體這次行政院版提出槍砲彈藥刀罪管制條例是要加嚴而且加重處罰本席基本上是不予支持的但是卻沒有考量到原住民族的傳統文化譬如說我們這個自製列槍的機用人"},{"start":3517.421,"end":3545.008,"text":"以享有法定繼承人然後對於未成年人不得繼承自己父母親的自製獵槍這個有違反原住民族的傳統文化經本席及高精素美委員強烈的要求後來謝謝我們內政委員會也接受也同意"},{"start":3546.184,"end":3571.586,"text":"將未成年人的原住民可以繼承他的自製列槍然後相關的規定由中央原住民族主管機關來訂定另外就是有關在公共場所或是公眾得出入的場所涉及的話會加重處罰基本上是應該的但是對於原住民族"},{"start":3572.37,"end":3595.107,"text":"此有自制列槍：基於傳統文化：需要去做這樣的一個涉及：不應該加重處罰：應該要排除：也謝謝內政委員會的委員能夠同意將特別甄列一個但書但原住民族基於傳統文化：基於非營利致用"},{"start":3596.778,"end":3608.389,"text":"所列野生動物者不在此縣所以這個部分是謝謝我們內政委員會但是我們要特別強烈的要求行政院槍炮彈藥盜竊管制條例109年修正之後對於"},{"start":3653.824,"end":3655.32,"text":"接下來請游玉蘭委員"},{"start":3670.987,"end":3690.058,"text":"主席各位同仁大家早安今天三讀通過槍砲彈藥刀切管制條例部分條文修正草案徵締槍砲彈藥的主要組成零件材質及殺傷力的認定基準由中央主管機關公告很遺憾為採用本席的主張經槍砲彈藥審認爭議"},{"start":3694.1,"end":3707.968,"text":"諮詢小組審議後再由中央主管機關公告之﹐而非由行政機關單獨認定本期期盼主管機關日後能徵詢﹐各界專家學者甚至相關團體的意見"},{"start":3710.689,"end":3732.65,"text":"並公正、客觀的立場加以認定．參採國際標準與時俱進．渡各界疑慮本席修法主張爭議諮詢小組的組成．應聘相關機關代表及專家學者．外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的二分之一．"},{"start":3733.37,"end":3755.593,"text":"雖然內政部林佑昌部長在委員會審查時支持本席看法並建議調整外聘委員人數不得少於全體委員的三分之一但卻未明定於修正的條文中相關的組織運作則授權由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":3756.233,"end":3773.846,"text":"希望日後訂定相關執法時﹐能確實明文規定外界委員的比例﹐以維護審議的專業、中立、客觀本條例雖然三讀通過﹐但部分民間團體仍有疑議"},{"start":3774.767,"end":3786.577,"text":"本席希望主管機關能夠多加與民眾溝通消弭爭議明確執法願天佑台灣人民平安謝謝接下來請廖國東委員廖國東委員廖國東委員不在"},{"start":3795.87,"end":3805.116,"text":"繼續進行討論事項第5案中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":3806.967,"end":3825.49,"text":"委員內政委員會於112年12月7日召開全英委員會議審查本案由羅兆錦委美林擔任主席主邀請提案委員說明提案要旨並邀請相關機關列席報告並備諮詢與報告及詢答完畢選舉進行審查與會員與聽取說明及詢答並經整密討論後原將全案審查完畢你據審查報告提報約會討論約會討論前不需加油黨團協商"},{"start":3835.912,"end":3855.104,"text":"並推請羅召集委員美玲與院會討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢請召集委員羅偉美玲補充說明羅偉沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交由黨團協商請院會有異議沒有異議本案經依審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸交程法請宣讀第18條"},{"start":3859.366,"end":3880.826,"text":"第18條在中華民國專屬經濟海域或大陸礁層故意損害天然資源或破壞自然生態者處5年下有期徒刑拘役或客戶併客新台幣5000萬元下罰金未經許可以傳播或其他機械設備方式在中華民國專屬經濟海域或大陸礁層採取土石者處1年上7年下有期徒刑"},{"start":3881.306,"end":3902.94,"text":"得併科新台幣1億元下罰金供前項犯罪用之傳播或其他機械設備不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之其經判決沒收確定者得失個案情節需要拍賣或編賣或專案報准依下列方式之一處置之依無償留供公用而廢棄三為其他適當之處置宣讀完畢"},{"start":3906.431,"end":3909.155,"text":"照審查會條文通過請願經過二讀 現有民進黨團體繼續進行三讀請願會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之條文"},{"start":3916.109,"end":3939.623,"text":"第18條在中華民國專屬經濟海運或大陸礁層故意損害天然資源或破壞自然生態者處5年以下有期徒刑軍役或客戶併客新台幣5000萬元下罰金未經許可以船舶或其他機械設備方式在中華民國專屬經濟海運或大陸礁層採取土石者處1年上7年下有期徒刑得併客新台幣1億元以下罰金"},{"start":3940.203,"end":3960.589,"text":"供前項犯罪用之傳播或其他機械設備不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之其經判決沒收確定者得失個案情節需要拍賣或變賣或專案報准因下列方式之一處置之一、無償留供公用二、廢棄三、為其他適當之處置宣讀完畢"},{"start":3963.962,"end":3981.065,"text":"三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議中華民國專屬經濟海域及大陸礁層法第18條條文修正通過討論事項第6案土石採取法第36條條文修正法案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":3982.25,"end":4003.381,"text":"本院經濟委員會於112年12月11日舉行權力委員會議審查本案由趙景委員蔡瑜擔任主席衛總邀請經濟部部長汪美花就委員提案提出說明並答復委員質詢另邀請農業部等派員列席備詢與會員與聽取說明及詢談後對方案進行審查及緝密討論並將全案審查完畢臨去審查報告提報約會討論約會討論前不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":4008.564,"end":4027.705,"text":"又會討論本案時由經濟委員會召集委員蔡議員補充說明宣讀外幣請召集委員蔡委員補充說明蔡委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論土石採取法第36條"},{"start":4032.589,"end":4058.029,"text":"36.未經許可採取土石則﹐儲新台幣100萬元以上﹐500萬元相反還﹐直銷市縣市主管機關﹐並得縣級令其辦理者付及清除其設施﹐藉其人為遵行者按日﹐連續儲新台幣10萬元以上﹐100萬元相反還至遵行為止﹐並沒入其設施或機具必要時﹐得由直銷市縣市主管機關代為整付﹐及清除其設施﹐其費用由行為人負擔"},{"start":4058.909,"end":4086.261,"text":"衛星許可以全盟或其他機械設備方式﹐在下列區域採取土石者﹐處一年上七年下有期徒刑﹐得賓科新台幣1億元以下罰金一、中華民國內水不含內陸水域及領海二、依台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第29條第2項規定﹐公告之金門含東定烏丘﹐馬祖含東引亮島及南沙地區之限制禁止水域﹐"},{"start":4087.121,"end":4106.302,"text":"供前項犯罪用之傳播或其他機械設備﹐不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之﹐其經判決沒收確定者﹐得失個案請且需要拍賣或變賣﹐或專案抱存依下例方式之一處置之﹐一、無償流工公用﹐忍廢棄﹐三、為其他適當之處置宣讀完畢"},{"start":4108.991,"end":4132.013,"text":"照審查會議意見通過請願經過二讀﹑先由民進黨黨團T繼續進行三讀﹑請願會有異﹑沒有異﹑請宣讀經過二讀之條文第36條 未經許可採取土石者﹑除信貸幣100萬元以上﹑500萬元下方寬﹑即將順縣市主管機關並得限期的令期﹑辦理整複及清除其設施﹑藉其人為遵行者案日﹑連續除信貸幣10萬元以上﹑100萬元以上﹑"},{"start":4134.576,"end":4155.015,"text":"罰緩至遵行為止並默入其設施或機具必要時得由直轄市縣市主管機關代委臣付其清除其設施其費用由行為人負擔未經許可以純木或其他機械設備方式在下列區域採取土石者處一年上七年下有其土行得併科新台幣一億元以下罰金一"},{"start":4155.535,"end":4172.74,"text":"中華民國內水不含內陸水域及領海二、依臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第29條第二項規定公告之金門、韓東定、烏丘、馬祖、韓東引、亮島及南沙地區之限制禁止水域"},{"start":4174.12,"end":4194.389,"text":"公前項犯罪用之傳播或其他基線設備﹐不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之﹐其經判決沒收﹐確定者得示個案緊接需要拍賣貨幣們﹐或專案抱準依下列方式之一處置之﹐一、無償留公共用﹐二、廢棄﹐三、為其他適當之處置宣讀完畢"},{"start":4196.331,"end":4212.106,"text":"三讀條文已宣讀完畢 請務委員會有文字修正沒有文字修正 決議土石採取法第36條條文修正通過討論事項第7案 中央政府總預算案審查程序第3條條文修正草案 請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":4213.359,"end":4230.83,"text":"本院財政委員會於112年12月11日舉行全體委員會議審查本案會議由省政委員發會擔任主席本院預算中心主任黃韶清及法治局組長黃良營應邀列席說明備詢與會員於聽取說明、詢答及大體討論後進行討論並達成共識將全案審查完略原請決議擬去審查報告提報院會本案與院會進行二讀前不需交由黨團先生"},{"start":4241.497,"end":4260.075,"text":"院會討論本案時由省召集委員發會補充說明宣讀完畢請召集委員、省委員發會補充說明省委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經以審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論中華政府總預算案審查程序第三條"},{"start":4261.229,"end":4287.536,"text":"第三條總預算案由各委員會分別審查其分配如下一、內政委員會一、內政部中央選舉委員會大陸委員會原住民族委員會客家委員會海洋委員會不當黨產處理委員會預算案二、前目各機關之所屬機關特種基金及其捐助之財團法人預算案三、行政院預算案二、外交及國防委員會一、外交部全務委員會國防部國軍退出官兵輔導委員會預算案"},{"start":4289.256,"end":4308.232,"text":"二、節目各機關之所屬機關﹐特種基金及其捐助之財團法人預算案三、國家安全局預算案三、經濟委員會﹐一、經濟部農業部國家發展委員會﹐公平交易委員會預算案二、節目各機關之所屬機關﹐特種基金及其捐助之財團法人預算案"},{"start":4309.152,"end":4327.322,"text":"四、財政委員會．財政部中央銀行金融監督管理委員會．行政院主席總署審計部預算案二、其目各機關之所屬機關特寵基金及其捐助之財團法人預算案三、災害準備金第二日備金及其當部屬於各委員會審查之預算案"},{"start":4327.922,"end":4347.322,"text":"五、教育及文化委員會一、教育部文化部國立故宮博物院﹐中央研究院國家科學及技術委員會﹐核能安全委員會預算案二、勤務各機關之所屬機關特種基金﹐及其專注之財政法人預算案六、交通委員會一、交通部數位發展部﹐"},{"start":4348.062,"end":4375.3,"text":"行政院公共工程委員會．國家通訊傳播委員會．國家運輸安全調查委員會．預算案二、勤務各機關之所屬機關．特種基金及其捐助資財團法人．預算案七、司法及法制委員會．法務部、行政院．人事行政總署．預算案二、司法院考試院．預算案三、勤務各機關之所屬機關．特種基金及其捐助資財團法人．預算案四、總統府國使館及其所屬機關．國家安全會議．預算案"},{"start":4377.682,"end":4397.188,"text":"五、立法院監察院預算案幫社會福利及衛生環境委員會．衛生福利部環境部勞動部預算案而節目各機關是所屬機關特種基金及其捐助之財團法人預算案總預算案提報約會前應由財政委員會嚴厲年度總預算案審查日程"},{"start":4397.908,"end":4426.124,"text":"並依前線規定嚴禮年度總預算案審查分配表並同總預算案提報院會後交付財政委員會依分配表及日程將預算書分送各委員會審查宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過決議中央政府總預算案審查程序第3條條文修正通過討論事項第8案立法院組織法第32條條文修正查案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":4427.219,"end":4443.055,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會於112年12月7日召開決定委員會議審查本案由林兆景委員4名擔任主席除邀請提案委員說明提案要職外相關機關應邀指派代表列寫說明並答復委員詢問與候委員聽取報告並經詢談後審略大體討論進行逐條審查並將全案審查完略"},{"start":4448.84,"end":4475.813,"text":"原經決議本案審查文件已去審查報告提醒院會公決不須再叫黨團協商院會討論時由林兆璇委員私名出席說明宣讀完畢請召集委員林委員私名補充說明林委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再叫黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論立法院組織法請宣讀第32條"},{"start":4477.148,"end":4497.098,"text":"第32條立法委員每人得至公費助理8人之14人由委員聘用立法院亦每年編列每一立法委員一定數額之助理費及其辦公事務預算公費助理與委員同進退其以《勞動基準法》所規定則相關費用均由立法院編列預算則應之"},{"start":4498.058,"end":4512.134,"text":"前項立法委員辦公事務等必要費用徵項目及標準如附表自中華民國102年1月1日實行立法院因每年編列預算補助公費助理實施健康檢查及文康活動費用"},{"start":4513.095,"end":4531.598,"text":"其對象、項目、方法、標準及其他應遵行之事項由立法院內定之自中華民國114年1月1日施行立法院組織法第32條附表項目一行動及自動電話費標準每人月之金額新台幣一萬二千元"},{"start":4532.499,"end":4546.776,"text":"1、合計年資金額新台幣144,000元2、文具油票費每人月資新台幣15,000元合計年資金額新台幣18萬元3、油料費其他每人每月600公升"},{"start":4548.237,"end":4560.791,"text":"4、國會交流事務經費合計年資金額新台幣20萬元其他每人每年二次5、服務處租金補助費每人月資金額新台幣2萬元合計年資金額新台幣24萬元"},{"start":4562.373,"end":4584.15,"text":"六、委員健康檢查費其他每人每屆新台幣五萬六千元七、辦公事務費每人月資金額新台幣一萬四千六百七十二元合計年資金額新台幣十七萬六千零六十四元宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過全案經過二讀 現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀 請務院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":4591.158,"end":4611.825,"text":"第32條立法委員每人得至公費助理8人至14人由委員聘用立法院應每年編列每一立法委員一定數額之助理費及其辦公事務預算公費助理與委員同進退其《勞動基準法》所規定之相關費用均由立法院編列預算之應之"},{"start":4612.805,"end":4642.04,"text":"前項立法委員辦公事務等必要費用之項目及標準如附表自中華民國102年1月1日施行立法院應每年編列預算補助公費助理實施健康檢查及文康活動費用其對象、項目、方法、標準及其他應遵行之事項由立法院另訂之自中華民國114年1月1日施行立法院組織法第32條附表如二讀附表宣讀完畢"},{"start":4645.854,"end":4663.317,"text":"三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議立法院組織法第32條條文修正通過討論事項第9案司法人員人事條例部分條件修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":4664.827,"end":4678.557,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會於112年12月7日﹐召開決定委員會議﹐並按審查本案由林兆景委員自民擔任主席﹐除邀請提案委員說明提案要職外﹐相關機會應邀指派代表練習說明﹐並答貨員詢問與貨員與聽取報告並經巡談後﹐審略大體討論進行逐條審查﹐並將全案審查完略"},{"start":4687.464,"end":4715.396,"text":"原經決議本案審查完均一句審查報告提醒院會公決不須再交黨團協商院會討論時有林兆吉委司名出席說明宣讀完畢請兆吉委林委員司名補充說明另外沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不須再交黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經依審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論司法人員人事條例請宣讀第三條"},{"start":4716.28,"end":4743.937,"text":"第三條本條例稱司法官指下列各款人員一、最高法院院長今任庭長之法官法官二、最高檢察署檢察總政主任檢察官檢察官三、高等法院以下各級法院及其分院今任院長或庭長之法官法官三、高等檢察署以下各級檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官主任檢察官檢察官宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第四條"},{"start":4744.949,"end":4768.907,"text":"第4條本條歷春其他司法人員指下列各款人員一、書記官長、書記官同意二、主任司法事務官、司法事務官三、主任檢查事務官、檢查事務官四、主任公證人、公證人、公證佐理員五、主任關護人、關護人六、提存所主任、提存佐理員七、登記處主任、登記佐理員八、主任法醫師、法醫師檢驗員"},{"start":4771.088,"end":4779.418,"text":"就法警長、副法警長、法警指導員是依法律所定法院及檢察署應制止其他人員宣讀完畢"},{"start":4782.97,"end":4805.376,"text":"第9條 地方法院或其分院法官﹐地方檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官﹐應就具有下列資格遵義者任用之﹐一、經司法官考試及格者﹐二、承認推試法官檢察官經全序合格者﹐三、經律師考試及格﹐並執行律師職務三領上承襲優良﹐具有轉任晉任職任用資格者﹐"},{"start":4806.356,"end":4830.135,"text":"4.曾在公立或經歷岸之私立大學﹐獨立學院法律學系或法律研究所畢業而在公立或經歷岸之私立大學﹐獨立學院任教授或副教授三年或助理教授五年強受主要法律科目案理引申由法律專門著作經司法院或法務部審查合格並經律師考試及格或具有經任職任用資格者"},{"start":4830.855,"end":4845.483,"text":"依前項第三款規定臨任者執行律師職務6年、10年、14年以上者得分別轉任、晉任第7職等、第8職等、第9職等後補或是屬法官、檢察官宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第11條"},{"start":4846.536,"end":4863.448,"text":"第11條高等法院或其分院法官﹐高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官﹐應就具有下列資格之一者任用之一、地方法院或其分院實任法官﹐地方檢察署及其檢察分署實任檢察官﹐惡擬送成績優良者"},{"start":4864.148,"end":4890.777,"text":"二、經律師考試及格並執行律師職務14年以上成績優良具有轉任經任職任用資格者本條例所證之地方法院或其分院時任法官地方檢察署及其檢察分署時任檢察官細緻考察服務曾經及格予以實受者第一項電款人員之零證適用第九條第二項及第十條第三項之第六項規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":4891.872,"end":4919.944,"text":"照審查會條文通過第12條第12條最高法院法官、最高檢察署檢察官應就具有下列資格遵義者任用之一、承認高等法院或其分院法官高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官四年以上誠心優良具有檢認值任用資格者二、承認高等法院或其分院法官高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官並任地方法院或其分院經任院長之法官"},{"start":4920.564,"end":4945.016,"text":"地方檢察署及其檢察分署檢察長合計4名以上成績優良﹐具有檢認職任用資格者曾在公立或金利安茲斯利大學﹐獨立學院法律學系或法律研究所畢業而在公立或金利安茲斯利大學﹐獨立學院專任教授﹐講授主要法律科目﹐由法律專門著作經司法院或法務部審查合格"},{"start":4945.676,"end":4974.352,"text":"並承認高等法院或其分院法官高段檢查署及其檢查分署檢查官具有檢認職任用資格者宣讀完畢召審查會條文通過第13條第13條地方法院及其分院院長地方檢查署及其檢查分署檢查長應就具有高等法院或其分院法官高段檢查署及其檢查分署檢查官及擬任職等任用資格並有領導才能者臨任之宣讀完畢"},{"start":4975.319,"end":4993.924,"text":"照審查會條文通過第14條第14條高等法院及其分院院長高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察長應就具有最高法院法官最高檢察署檢察官資格並有領導才能者您認知宣布完畢照審查會條文通過第15條"},{"start":4994.98,"end":5014.072,"text":"第15條高等法院以下各級法院及其分院院長、高等檢察署以下各級檢察署及其檢察分署檢察長之職期調任本法由司法院與行政院分別定之宣讀外幣照審查會條文通過委員黃士傑等提案第20條之二不予增訂第27條"},{"start":5015.492,"end":5035.954,"text":"第27條 司法官考試錄取人員應接受司法官學習訓練﹐以完成其考試資格前項人員之訓練﹐由司法院會同考試院及行政院設訓練委員會﹐決定其訓練方針、訓練計畫﹐及其他有關訓練重要事項﹐交由法務部司法官學院執行"},{"start":5036.874,"end":5055.8,"text":"訓練委員會至委員11人除最高法院院長為當然委員兼召集人及最高檢察署檢察總長為當然委員兼副召集人外其餘委員9人由司法院、考試院、行政院各指定3人充職宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第32條"},{"start":5057.403,"end":5075.221,"text":"第32條實證司法官非有下列原因不得免職因因內亂外患貪污故意獨自罪受判刑確定者而因遣款以外之罪受有期徒刑上刑之宣告確定者但宣告緩刑或准以異科罰金者不在此限"},{"start":5076.322,"end":5078.703,"text":"3.受撤職之懲戒處分者4."},{"start":5078.703,"end":5080.723,"text":"受監護之宣告者5."},{"start":5080.723,"end":5101.388,"text":"實證司法官受監護或輔助之宣告者自宣告之日起等依相關規定辦理退休或資遣公務人員考積法關於免職之規定與實證司法官不適用之但應依公務員懲戒法之規定依附懲戒宣討完畢照審查會條文通過委員黃士傑等提案第40條不予採納第41條"},{"start":5103.618,"end":5124.51,"text":"第41條實證司法官合於公務人員退休之前撫恤法或公務人員個人專戶制退休之前撫恤法的退休規定而自願退休時除退休金外並另加退養金其辦法由司法院會同考試院行政院以命令定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第42條"},{"start":5125.888,"end":5154.318,"text":"第42條司法冠經公立醫院證明身體衰弱不能升任職務者等依公務人員退休之前撫恤法或公務人員個人專戶制退休之前撫恤法及公務人員任用法有關自選之規定之前宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員黃士傑等提案第43條不予採納全案經過二讀先由民進黨黨團體繼續進行三讀請務院會有違一沒有一請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":5156.874,"end":5182.254,"text":"第三條本條例春思法官指下列各款人員一、最高法院院長經任庭長之法官、法官二、最高檢察署檢查總政、主任檢察官、檢察官三、高等法院以下各級法院及其分院經任院長或庭長之法官、法官四、高等檢察署以下各級檢察署及其檢察分署檢察政、主任檢察官、檢察官"},{"start":5184.335,"end":5206.038,"text":"第4條本條立稱其他司法人員只下列各款人員一、書記官長、書記官同意二、主任司法事務官、司法事務官三、主任檢查事務官、檢查事務官四、主任公證人、公證人、公證佐理員五、主任關護人、關護人六、其提存所主任提存佐理員"},{"start":5208.556,"end":5222.436,"text":"其登記處主任、登記所理員、8主任法醫師、法醫師檢驗員、9法警長、副法警長、法警指導員是依法律所定、法院及其檢查署應致知其他人員"},{"start":5224.369,"end":5240.005,"text":"第9條 地方法院或行分院法官﹐地方檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官﹐應就具有下列資格追責任用之﹐一、經司法官考試及格者﹐而責任推示法官檢察官經權需合格者﹐"},{"start":5240.606,"end":5262.635,"text":"三、經律師考試及格﹐並執行律師職務三年以上﹐成績優良﹐具有轉任兼任職任用資格者四、曾在公立或經歷岸之私立大學﹐獨立學院法律學系或法律研究所畢業﹐而在公立或經歷岸之私立大學﹐獨立學院專教授﹐或副教授三年或助理教授五年﹐"},{"start":5263.496,"end":5282.197,"text":"講授主要法律科目案領證由法律專門著作經司法院或法務部審查合格並經律師考試及格或具有經任職任用資格者依前項第三款規定領認者執行律師職務6年、10年、14年以上者"},{"start":5282.697,"end":5306.844,"text":"得分別轉任晉任第7值等、第8值等、第9值等後補或世屬法官檢察官第11條高等法院或其分院法官、高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官應就具有下列資格之一者任用之一、地方法院或其分院時任法官、地方檢察署及其檢察分署時任檢察官、二擬送成績優良者"},{"start":5307.484,"end":5332.486,"text":"二、經律師考試及格﹐並執行律師職務14年以上﹐成績優良﹐具有轉任禁任職任用資格者本條例所稱之地方法院或其分院實證法官﹐地方檢察署及其檢察分署實證檢察官﹐細節考察服務成績及格予以實受者第一項第二款人員制另任﹐適用第九條第二項及第十條第三項至第六項規定"},{"start":5334.813,"end":5350.84,"text":"第12條最高法院法官最高檢察署檢察官應就具有下列資格遵義者任用之一、承認高等法院或其分院法官高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官四年以上成績優良具有檢認職任用資格者"},{"start":5352.1,"end":5369.12,"text":"二、曾任高等法院或其分院法官﹐高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官﹐並任地方法院或其分院﹐今任院長之法官﹐地方檢察署及其檢察分署檢察長﹐合計4年以上成績優良﹐具有檢認職任用資格者﹐"},{"start":5370.06,"end":5394.54,"text":"曾在公立或金利安茲斯里大學﹐獨立學院法律學系或法律研究所畢業而在公立或金利安茲斯里大學﹐獨立學院專任教授﹐講授主要法律科目﹐有法律專門著作經司法院或法務部審查合格﹐並曾任高等法院或其分院法官﹐高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官﹐具有檢認職任用資格者"},{"start":5396.201,"end":5412.55,"text":"第13條 地方法院及其分院院長﹐地方檢察署及其檢察分署檢察長﹐應就具有高等法院或其分院法官﹐高等檢察署及其檢察分署檢察官﹐及擬任職等任用資格﹐並有領導才能者臨任之"},{"start":5413.991,"end":5442.35,"text":"第14條 高檔法院及其分院院長﹐高檔檢察署及其檢察分署檢察長﹐應求具有最高法院法官﹐最高檢察署檢察官資格﹐並有領導才能者臨任之第15條 高檔法院以下﹐各級法院及其分院院長﹐高檔檢察署以下﹐各級檢察署﹐以及及其檢察分署檢察長之職期調任本法﹐由司法院與行政院分別定之"},{"start":5445.444,"end":5466.796,"text":"第27條司法官考試部局人員應接受司法官學習訓練以完成其考試資格前項人員之訓練由司法院會同考試院及行政院設訓練委員會決定其訓練方針訓練計畫及其他有關訓練重要事項將由法務部司法官學院執行"},{"start":5469.06,"end":5484.19,"text":"訓練委員會至委員11人除最高法院院長為當任委員兼召集人及最高檢察署檢察總長為當任委員兼副召集人外其餘委員9人由司法院、考試院、行政院各指定3人充職"},{"start":5486.553,"end":5506.961,"text":"第32條實證司法官非有下列原因不得免職一、因內亂外患貪污故意獨持罪受判刑確定者二、因遣款以外之罪受有期徒刑以上刑事宣告確定者但宣告緩刑或准予一科罰金者不在此限三、受撤職之懲戒處分者"},{"start":5507.521,"end":5522.114,"text":"自受監護之宣告者時任司法官受監護或輔助之宣告者自宣告之日起等依相關規定辦理退休或資遣公務人員考記法關於免職制規定與時任司法官不適用之"},{"start":5522.634,"end":5546.857,"text":"但應依《公務員承接法制規定》以附承接第41條時任司法官等於公務人員退休自檢撫恤法或公務人員個人專戶制退休自檢撫恤法退休規定而自願退休時除退休金外併令加退養金其併法由司法院會同考試員行政院以命令定之"},{"start":5548.178,"end":5575,"text":"第42條 司法官經公立意願證明身體衰弱不能身任勤務者等依公務人員退休自檢服需法或公務人員個人專戶制退休自檢服需法及公務人員任用法有關自檢之規定之前宣讀完畢三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議司法人員人事條例第3條第10條第9條第11條至第15條"},{"start":5577.048,"end":5583.336,"text":"第27條、第32條、第41條及第42條條文修正通過討論事項第10案公教委員保險法第12條及第36條條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":5591.806,"end":5607.301,"text":"本院司法及法制委員會於112年12月7日召開選舉委員會議審查本案．案審查本案由林兆元斯民擔任主席除邀請提案委員說明提案要詢問相關機關應邀指派代表列寫說明．答護委員詢問與護委員與聽取報告並經詢談後省略大體討論進行主條審查並將全案審查完略"},{"start":5615.589,"end":5639.608,"text":"原經決議本案審查完畢．據審查報告提醒院會公決．不需再有黨團協商．院會討論時有林兆吉委私名出席說明宣讀完畢請兆吉委林委私名補充說明林委沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交黨團協商請問院會有異議沒有異議本案經一審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論公教人員保險法第12條維持現行條文第36條"},{"start":5642.011,"end":5666.025,"text":"第36條被保險人有下列期刑之因者得請領生育給付一、在保險有效期間分免或糟蹭二、在保險有效期間懷孕且與保險效力停止後一年內因統一懷孕事故而分免或糟蹭被保險人符合前項規定者給予二個月生育給付一項被保險人分免或糟蹭為雙生以上者"},{"start":5666.585,"end":5689.074,"text":"生育給付案前項標準比例增給被保險人同時符合相關社會保險生育給付或依軍公教身份請領國家給予之生育補助請領條件者僅得則依請領被保險人與本法中華民國103年6月1日修正宣教後至112年12月18日修正之本條文施行前"},{"start":5689.654,"end":5710.268,"text":"具有第一項各款執行之一且未因同意分明或早產事實領取本保險或相關社會保險生育給付或因軍公教身份請領國家給予之生育補助者得因112年12月18日修正之本條文施行前之給予標準請領生育給付宣讀完畢"},{"start":5721.053,"end":5739.417,"text":"36.被保險人由下列期刑之一者﹐得經領生育給付﹐一,在保險有效期間分免或早產﹐二,在保險有效期間懷孕﹐且於保險效力停止後一年內﹐應統一懷孕事故而分免或早產﹐被保險人符合前項規定者﹐給予二個月生育給付"},{"start":5741.878,"end":5769.162,"text":"第一項被保險人分免或早審為雙生以上者生育給付案前項標準比例增給被保險人同時符合相關社會保險生育給付或因軍公教身份請領國家給予之生育補助請領條件者僅得責任請領被保險人與本法中華民國103年6月1日修正宣教後至112年12月18日修正之本條文實行前"},{"start":5769.662,"end":5795.291,"text":"具有第一項各款行刑之一且未因同意分免或早產事實領取本保險或相關社會保險生育給付或因軍公教身份請領國家給予之生育補助者等於112年12月18日出證之本條文施行前之給予標準請領生育給付宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過"},{"start":5796.587,"end":5812.717,"text":"參讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議公教人員保險法第36條條文修正通過方案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言首先請李德維委員發言並截止發言登記"},{"start":5824.721,"end":5839.548,"text":"主席、財富院長、各位同仁、各位媒體朋友我想今天公教人員保險法第36條的修正當然加強了我們的婦女在生育相關勤領的保險的保障"},{"start":5840.729,"end":5861.201,"text":"我想過去我們的公教人員保險法勞工保險條例等相關條例對於生理婦女對於社會風險發生時所謂保障生養所謂的支出都有相關的一些保障但是各該生育給付的條件僅限參加其保險制度"},{"start":5861.741,"end":5890.329,"text":"而後參加者並未符合其參加投保日期日的條件就沒有辦法領取任何的生育補助實在是立法的缺失所以這一次包含林思明以及陳玉珍等6位委員所提案修正通過的相關的內容當然特別的補強了一個部分那第36條第一項所列舉的各項的要件期日"},{"start":5891.77,"end":5912.251,"text":"將曾參加公教人員保險或其他社會保險使其投保總年資合併計劃藉由生育給付的體系完善化使得被保險人轉換社會保險的保險體系沒有後顧之憂更對於社會的生育率有提高意願"},{"start":5912.931,"end":5937.766,"text":"而避免國家長期的少子化進而導致財政、產業的社會問題衝擊我想在這個部分我們對於相關的公教人員保險法能夠在這個部分有所突破相信對於現在少子化的問題以及對於我們婦女相關的保障都有所注意謝謝"},{"start":5943.247,"end":5944.797,"text":"接著請邱辰元委員"},{"start":5966.309,"end":5992.258,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有全體國人同胞很高興公教人員保險法第36條條文修正草案今天完成三讀通過將原本規定必須在投保後受孕之分娩及早產才能勤領的生育給付的規定進一步放寬為只要在投保時間內都可以勤領兌現0到6歲國家養的友善生育政策"},{"start":5993.278,"end":6022.624,"text":"臺灣民眾黨立院黨團有鑒於現有社會之預付制度針對生育給付雖有自相關規定但目前各種嫌腫的給付條件卻僅限參加該保險且符合投保滿一定日期之規定者如若被保險人於投保期間轉換社會預付之保險制度將因不符合其投保期日條件而無法領取任何生育給付因此"},{"start":6023.064,"end":6048.233,"text":"提出修正取消年資的限制以保障新進投保人員及得享有生育給付對於鼓勵生產的立法精神有較廣的適用性對此本席在109年就同步提出公教人員保險法第36條農民健康保險法第24條及勞工保險法第31條條文等三下修法的提案因此對於今天的"},{"start":6049.153,"end":6066.402,"text":"公教人員保險法的三讀感到特別欣慰這也是繼修正農保條例之後第二個放寬生育給付的勤領條件限制的法案補足法規相關的漏洞 落實友善育兒環境跟育兒政策的重要法案"},{"start":6067.262,"end":6087.239,"text":"本席要在這邊呼籲勞動部也應該在下屆競速完成修法取消生育給付的投保時間限制最後 針對上次農保條例已經同步修正提高生育給付為三個月很遺憾在這次的審查中未將本黨第二次提案版本納入希望未來可以改進 謝謝"},{"start":6092.482,"end":6108.639,"text":"討論事項第11案《陸海空軍刑法》第54條條文修正草案報院會本案經第8會期第11次會議決定自委員會抽出淨富二讀由民進黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商本案現已完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":6112.864,"end":6141.063,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論 時間 112年12月12日 星期二 地點立法院紅樓302會議室協商主題 陸委空軍刑法修正草案協商結論第54條 照協商內容通過 降入附件協商主持人 游錫坤 蔡其昌協商代表 柯建民 劉世芳 莊瑞雄 曾明中 謝一鳳 李德維邱承遠 賴香林 張其祿 邱淺智 陳焦華 王婉玉宣讀完畢請問院會對以上協商結論有依依"},{"start":6141.584,"end":6147.091,"text":"沒有依本案逐條討論時竟依協商結論處理陸海空軍刑法請宣讀第54條"},{"start":6148.772,"end":6172.86,"text":"第54條,駕駛動力交通工具而有下列騎行之一者,處3年下有期徒刑﹐得併科新台幣40萬元下罰金﹐一,土器所含酒精濃度達每公升0.25毫克﹐或嫌疑中酒精濃度達0.05%以上﹐二,有錢款以外之其他情事﹐足證服用酒類或其他相類製物之不能安全駕駛﹐"},{"start":6174.18,"end":6194.53,"text":"3、尿液或血液所含毒品、麻醉藥品或其他相類致物或其代謝物達行政院公告之品相及濃度之以上4、有監管以外之其他情事主任適用毒品、麻醉藥品或其他相類致物致不能安全駕駛因而致人與死者處3年上10年下有期徒刑得病科新台幣220萬元下罰金"},{"start":6196.551,"end":6218.29,"text":"致重傷者處一年上千年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣120萬元下罰金財犯本條例或刑法第185條之三之罪經有罪判決確定或經緩起訴處分確定於十年內再犯第一項之罪因而致人與死者處無期徒刑或五年上有期徒刑得併科新台幣320萬元下罰金"},{"start":6220.572,"end":6237.639,"text":"致重傷者處三齡雙十年下有期徒刑．得併課薪財幣220萬元下罰金．駕駛公務或軍用動力交通工具．犯本條之罪者．得加重其刑至二分之一宣讀完畢照協商條文通過 全員經過二讀 現有民黨黨團體繼續進行三讀 請願會有依沒有依 請宣讀經過二讀之條文"},{"start":6244.178,"end":6259.398,"text":"第54條 駕駛動力交通工具而有項鍊前行之一者﹐處3年下有期徒刑﹐得併科新台幣40萬元下罰金﹐依土器所含酒精濃度﹐達每公升0.25毫克﹐或寫意中酒精濃度達0.05%以上"},{"start":6261.54,"end":6276.652,"text":"二、有監管以外之其他情勢足認服用酒類或其他香類之物﹐這不能安全駕駛三、尿液或血液所含毒品﹐麻醉藥品或其他香類之物﹐或其代謝物﹐達行政院公告之品項及濃度值以上"},{"start":6277.992,"end":6304.023,"text":"有千萬以外之其他情事足認識用毒品、麻醉藥品或其他相類職務致不能安全駕駛因而致人與死者處三年上十年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣220萬元以下罰金致重傷者處一年上七年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣120萬元以下罰金懲犯本條獲刑法第185條之三之罪經有罪判決確定或經緩起訴處分決定"},{"start":6306.224,"end":6330.001,"text":"於10年內再犯地上之罪因而致人與死者處無期徒刑或5年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣320萬元下罰金至重傷者處3年以上10年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣220萬元以下罰金駕駛公務或軍用動力交通工具犯本條之罪者得加重其刑至二分之一宣讀完畢"},{"start":6333.908,"end":6351.733,"text":"三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議陸海空軍刑法第54條條文修正通過本案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言首先請李德維委員發言並截止發言登記"},{"start":6364.329,"end":6373.663,"text":"主席、蔡副院長、各位同仁、各位媒體朋友我想今天陸海空軍刑法第54條修正草案的通過"},{"start":6375.558,"end":6396.234,"text":"獨海空軍刑法的第一條規定現役軍人犯本法者依本法處罰而過去我們的54條裡面只有針對相關的酒駕所謂的酒精濃度跟其他服用麻醉藥品等來作出處分"},{"start":6396.954,"end":6424.522,"text":"而本次的修正是把施用毒品而其尿液經檢驗判定為陽性或者有錢款以外的情勢足以認定施用毒品導致不能安全駕駛列入我們相信在這個時代裡面大家對於反毒都非常的有共識所以在《陸海空軍刑法》第54條今天修正案"},{"start":6425.362,"end":6449.304,"text":"通過的同時我們希望對於所謂的現役軍人要有更多的宣導以及防制的措施避免相關的現役軍人違反此條當然大家都非常重視現在的反毒所以在這個部分裡面我們也希望國防部以及相關的單位"},{"start":6450.205,"end":6469.777,"text":"能夠加強對於我們軍人軍法教育尤其在施用毒品的這一個部分能夠給予更多的宣導以及教育致使我們未來的國軍能夠避免觸犯相關陸海空軍刑法尤其在這個部分裡面"},{"start":6470.317,"end":6480.302,"text":"特別對於駕駛相關交通工具而會影響其他人的生命財產安全的時候我們應該有更好的防範措施"},{"start":6498.275,"end":6513.997,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有大院所有同仁以及全體國人很高興陸海空軍刑法第54條條文修正草案今天三讀通過這項法案是搭配刑法第185條之三修正"},{"start":6514.938,"end":6536.148,"text":"為了防止獨駕明確化違法要件並保障社會大眾安全所做的修法同時也是本席及臺灣民眾黨黨團在109年提案倡議雖然去年初本屆期的第一輪修法三讀是以酒駕為主但也引起法務部對於酒駕必罰、獨駕難罰的重視並且針對二次獨駕展開第二次的修法"},{"start":6541.77,"end":6567.503,"text":"鑒於施用毒品後駕駛動力交通工具亦因毒品作用而發生傷亡為保障社會大眾交通安全因此本次修正明定毒駕者尿液驗出陽性反應及構成公共危險罪若因個案情況無法檢驗判定陽性唯有人其他情勢足認為有施用毒品而致不能安全駕駛時也論以毒駕罪者"},{"start":6568.383,"end":6592.218,"text":"以全面處罰獨駕行為保障社會大眾安全獨品零容忍是國家既定的政策而獨駕可能造成的重大傷亡情形與酒駕相當如果發生在國軍身上也會傷害部隊的戰力本次入海空軍刑法第54條以及中華民國刑法第185條之三同步修正"},{"start":6593.118,"end":6617.191,"text":"希望能夠嚇阻現役軍人吸毒駕駛動力交通工具造成重大交通事故的遺憾情勢以確保社會大眾及國家軍事安全雖然過程中一度因為司法院不同的見解而停頓但在本院堅持之下終於完成三讀立法作業再次感謝大家一起守護國軍及國人的交通安全謝謝"},{"start":6622.498,"end":6628.163,"text":"繼續進行討論事項第12案軍事營區安全維護條例草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":6629.67,"end":6650.076,"text":"本院外交及國防委員會於112年11月20日舉行全體委員會議審查本案會議由何兆景委員自為擔任主席、徽政國防部部長邱國正等提出報告令邀請國家安全局等派員列席備詢與會員於聽取說明及詢答後對方案進行逐條審查經準命討論將三案併案審查完略"},{"start":6652.917,"end":6673.595,"text":"全案審查委員會原決議．案引去審查報告提報院會．院會審議前需交由黨團協商．院會討論時由何召集委員自委補充說明宣讀完畢請召集委員何委員自委補充說明．何委員沒有補充說明．本案經審查會決議需交由黨團協商報院會本案已完成協商．請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":6675.916,"end":6679.659,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間112年12月8日星期五10時至10時35分地點立法院紅樓301會議室協商主題軍事營區安全維護條例查案"},{"start":6689.486,"end":6714.887,"text":"協商結論一、第7條及第20條修正通過祥儒復建二、第16條及第24條照行政院提案通過三、區域均照審查會審查結果通過主持人何志偉、協商代表柯建銘、劉世芳、莊瑞雄、曾銘忠、謝一鳳、李德維、廖婉如、邱承遠、賴香林、張其祿、邱顯智宣讀完畢群議院會對以上協商結論有依依沒有依本案主條討論時竟依協商結論處理"},{"start":6718.252,"end":6744.381,"text":"軍事營區安全維護條例查案 請宣讀名稱軍事營區安全維護條例 宣讀完畢照審查會名稱通過 第一條第一條 為維護軍事營區安全﹐確保軍事演習、訓練及戰備任務之遂行﹐達成國軍建軍戰備及防衛國家安全之目的﹐特指定本條例 宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過 第二條"},{"start":6745.114,"end":6762.221,"text":"第二條本條例致主管機關為國防部宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第三條第三條本條例用此定義如下依軍事營區指重要軍事設施或軍事機關之屬地經軍事機關通報相關機關管制之軍事演習或軍事訓練場域與演習或訓練期間視為軍事營區"},{"start":6767.023,"end":6783.118,"text":"二、軍事營區安全警務．實施警戒、管制及其他直接或間接．助於維護軍事營區安全之必要警務三、軍事機關．國防部及所屬機關構．部隊、學校、國家安全局及國家中山科學研究院．視為軍事機關"},{"start":6785.66,"end":6807.254,"text":"4.衛哨兵 指在軍事營區執行軍事營區安全勤務之衛兵、哨兵或其他擔任警戒職務之軍人5.衛哨所 指衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全勤務之處所6.武器 指手槍、步槍與其他槍械及刺刀7.器械 指警棍、電器及警棍器"},{"start":6807.814,"end":6833.206,"text":"瓦斯槍等捕繩網﹑各式束帶及其他器具﹑八裝備﹑至執行勤務所需之﹑器械防彈背心﹑頭盔等防護安全之相關配備9、核心自通系統﹑只直接用於重要軍事設施﹑且防護需求等級為﹑高知作戰指揮管制﹑戰備訓練及管理諮詢系統前項第一款重要軍事設施之中﹑類有主管機關公告之"},{"start":6833.746,"end":6858.155,"text":"重要軍事設施或軍事機關處地屬居民和用者軍事營區之範圍由主管機關匯商相關機關公告第一項第一款軍事機關通報之方式內容管制場域之公告及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關匯商相關機關定之第一項第三款軍事機關經主管機關公告不列管制者不適用本條例之規定"},{"start":6858.936,"end":6864.728,"text":"第一項第6環節第7款武器及器械追踪類由主管機關定制宣讀完畢"},{"start":6869.011,"end":6890.837,"text":"第4條軍事機關得與軍事營區之重要處所開設衛哨所並配置衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全勤務軍事機關得是安全維護需要與軍事營區四周必要範圍內裝置監視警報系統或阻絕器材等有關安全防護設施宣讀完畢照審查會條例通過第5條"},{"start":6891.721,"end":6911.431,"text":"第5條軍事營區安全勤務由各級主官或其授權人員﹐以下簡宣指揮官指揮實施執行軍官、士官督導、衛哨兵執行前向人員於執行軍事營區安全勤務時﹐得配備武器、器械或裝備宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第6條"},{"start":6912.301,"end":6920.308,"text":"第6條 非經軍事機關許可﹐不得於軍事營區或對其為下列行為﹐一、進入軍事營區﹐二、攜帶露營"},{"start":6924.993,"end":6950.182,"text":"攝影器材、觀測器、槍砲彈藥、刀線或其他防害軍事營區安全之物品3、從事測量、錄影、攝影、描繪技術或其他偵察行為4、其他經營主管機關公告影響軍事營區安全之行為傾向許可之申請審查程序許可條件、費者許可及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第7條"},{"start":6951.892,"end":6967.752,"text":"第7條衛哨兵隊申請進入軍事營區之等貨物的實施安全檢查對於拒絕檢查或經檢查不符合軍事機關管理規定者應拒絕其進入軍事營區如有妨害軍事營區安全之餘時的強制驅離"},{"start":6969.754,"end":6986.147,"text":"衛少兵對離去軍事營區之人或物﹐得實施安全檢查對拒絕檢查者﹐得以強制力實施之指揮官執行軍官事官﹐對無辜侵入軍事營區者﹐得命強制去離或採取其他必要措施"},{"start":6986.707,"end":7012.249,"text":"有事實足認有刺探、收集國家機密或國防機密、軍事機密行為者等依刑事訴訟法第88條規定進行逮捕並及送交檢察官、司法警察官或司法警察前三項安全檢查、查證確立其他必要措施之事實程序及其他相關事項之本法由主管機關定之宣讀完畢照協商條文通過第8條"},{"start":7013.24,"end":7033.246,"text":"第8條軍事機關所屬人員未及時阻止違法行為之發生﹐避免急迫危險或防止危害擴大﹐得盡予維護軍事營區安全之必要﹐對軍事營區內有效力情形之一者﹐實施軍事營區安全管束﹐並得檢查受管束人之身體及所攜帶之物﹐"},{"start":7033.786,"end":7050.326,"text":"一、因精神疾病服用毒品、麻醉藥品或其他傷類之物或酒醉而生脫序行為二、意圖自殺或自傷三、暴行或鬥毆四、其他認為必須救護或有危害軍事安全之餘非管束不能救護或不能預防危害"},{"start":7051.087,"end":7070.977,"text":"此事傑向軍事營區安全管束時﹐應立即呈報指揮官﹐將受管束人安置或隔離於寢室﹐醫務所或其他適當之處所﹐並應及時以適當方法﹐通知或交由受管束人之配偶﹐二親等內親屬或其主定之人﹐或適當之機關構或人員保護"},{"start":7072.037,"end":7099.167,"text":"第一項軍事迎娶安全管束應於危險或危害結束時終止之管束時間最長不得於24小時但於航行中之軍用艦艇經指揮官給予受管束人陳述意見之機會後不在此限前向後段但說情形無適用提審法之規定軍用艦艇返抵國內港口後受管束人或第三人申請提審時應將受管束人立即解交法院"},{"start":7100.228,"end":7109.829,"text":"第一項軍事營區安全管束之實施方式程序管理及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第9條"},{"start":7111.202,"end":7131.318,"text":"第9條行為人對於指揮官、執勤軍官、士官及衛哨兵依第7條所謂安全檢查、強制確立或其他必要措施或對於前條軍事機關所屬人員實施軍事營區安全管束不符則除其他法律令有規定外得當場向其陳述理由表示異議"},{"start":7132.399,"end":7155.254,"text":"傾向異議指揮官執行軍官、士官及衛哨兵或實施軍事隱區安全管束之軍事機關所屬人員認為有理由者應立即停止或變更任務理由者得繼續執行經行為人請求者應將其異議要旨製作紀錄交付之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第10條"},{"start":7156.346,"end":7182.306,"text":"歷史條指揮官執行軍官士官及衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全警務欲有下列騎行之意時得使用器械必要時得使用武器一、為避免飛床變故維持軍事營區安全二、騷動行為足以危害軍事營區安全三、遙控無人機或其他無人飛行物體飛越軍事營區而有危害國防或軍事之設施或機密資訊之餘"},{"start":7183.847,"end":7206.24,"text":"四、請借管證之場所、建築物、工作物﹐車船、航空機或財船遭受危害五、依法應逮捕之人拒絕脫逃或他人助其拒捕、脫逃時六、執行軍事營區安全勤務﹐人員之生命、身體、自由或裝備﹐遭受危害或脅迫﹐或有事實足證有受危害之餘"},{"start":7207.36,"end":7227.331,"text":"7、人民之身命、身體、自由、財產 遭受危害或脅迫或有事實主任有受危害之餘8、持有凶器有資訊之餘 經告誡拋棄仍不聽從9、依第7條規定執行安全檢查 強制去離或其他必要措施非使用武器或器械不足以強制或制止"},{"start":7228.451,"end":7256.147,"text":"衛哨兵依前項第1款是第5款或第9款規定使用武器時應依指揮官或執行軍官士官命令執行發生第1項第4款第6款或第7款之情形指揮官執行軍官士兵或衛哨兵執行軍事營軍安全勤務無法有效使用武器或器械時得使用其他足以達成目的之物品該物品與使用時視為武器或器械宣讀完畢"},{"start":7259.554,"end":7284.062,"text":"報告審查會條文通過第11條第11條 檢調人員使用武器時應先實施警告但遭受突發性攻擊而不及實施警告或任何人意圖奪取武器而有檢調第一項第6款或第7款之情形時不在此限檢調人員使用武器或器械時應注意下列事項一、需基於事實需要合理使用不得逾越必要程度"},{"start":7284.582,"end":7313.236,"text":"二、非情況擊破物傷及致命之部位三、使用原因已消滅應立即停其使用四、物傷及其他第三人其條人員使用武器或器械後應將經過其行作審數面紀錄由使用人員所屬之軍事機關被查並保存該紀錄至少5年使用武器後並應及時報告該軍事營區最高指揮官宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第12條"},{"start":7314.318,"end":7341.352,"text":"第12條主管機關應聆聘相關機關構代表及專家學者組成調查小組得依職權或依軍事機關之申請就所屬人員使用武器或器械致人死亡或重傷專役事件之使用時機或者與相關行政責任進行調查及提供意見前項調查小組對於武器或器械使用妥適性之判斷得考量使用人員當時之合理認知"},{"start":7341.952,"end":7369.617,"text":"第一項調查小組的提供軍事機關使用武器或器械之教育訓練及倫理促進等建議事項其組織及運作方式由主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第13條第13條指揮官執勤軍官、士官及衛生兵使用武器或器械至現場人員身亡時應迅速通報救護或送醫並做必要之保護或戒護宣讀完畢"},{"start":7370.694,"end":7376.643,"text":"照審查會條文通過第14條前條人員所屬軍事機關機貨通報後應進行調查並提供該人員設送輔助及諮商輔導宣討完畢照審查會條文通過第15條"},{"start":7386.536,"end":7401.217,"text":"第15條 人民應會官執行軍官聖官警衛哨兵﹐依本條例規定實施安全檢查﹐強制血禮或採取必要之措施﹐或應軍事機關所屬人員﹐依本條例規定實施軍事營區安全管束﹐"},{"start":7401.778,"end":7418.412,"text":"指生命、身體或財產遭受特別犧牲之損失時得向指揮官執勤軍官、士官、衛哨兵或實施管束人員所屬之軍事機關請求補償但有可歸則與該人民之事有時得減金或免除其金額"},{"start":7419.333,"end":7440.468,"text":"指揮官執行軍官、士官及衛哨兵依本條例規定使用武器或器械致第三人生命、身體或財產遭受特別犧牲之損失時第三人得向指揮官執行軍官、士官及衛哨兵所屬之軍事機關請求補償但有可歸則該第三人日是有時得減薪或免除其金額"},{"start":7441.529,"end":7467.899,"text":"前二項損失補償應於只有損失時期二年內請求之但自損失發生後經過五年者不得為之對於軍事機關所為損失補償之決定不符者得依法提起訴願及行政訴訟第一項及第二項補償項目基準程序及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第16條"},{"start":7469.301,"end":7494.512,"text":"第16條指揮官執行軍官士官及衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全勤務違反本條例規定使用武器或器械致侵害人民自有獲取利時依國家賠償法規定辦理且向其行為執行軍事營區安全勤務人員出於故意行為所致者賠償義務機關得向其酬償宣言完畢照行政院提案條文通過第17條"},{"start":7495.612,"end":7515.118,"text":"第17條以竊取、毀壞或其他非法方法﹐危害重要軍事設施施工囊陣常運作者﹐處一年上千年下游期徒刑﹐得病科新台幣一千萬元下罰金意圖危害國家或軍事安全而犯傑向之罪者﹐處三年上十年下游期徒刑﹐得病科新台幣五千萬元下罰金"},{"start":7515.738,"end":7538.457,"text":"前二項即行至釀成災害者加重其刑至二分之一因而致贈於死者處五期入刑或七年上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以下罰金至重傷者處五年以上十二年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣八千萬元以下罰金第一項及第二項之未遂分罰支宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第18條"},{"start":7539.485,"end":7558.982,"text":"第18條對重要軍事設施之核心資通系統以下列方法之一危害其功能正常運作者處一年上七年下游企圖行得併刊新台幣一千萬元下罰金一、無故輸入其賬號密碼破解使用電腦之保護措施或利用電腦系統之漏洞而入侵其電腦或相關設備"},{"start":7561.284,"end":7578.399,"text":"二、無故以電腦程式或其他電子方式﹐干擾其電腦或相關設備三、無故取得刪除或變更其電腦﹐或相關設備之電子記錄製作專攻犯傾向之罪之電腦程式﹐而供自己或他人犯傾向之罪者一同"},{"start":7579.219,"end":7607.759,"text":"意圖危害國家或軍事安全而犯情任相致罪者處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑得併科新臺幣5千萬元下罰金前三項執行之量成災害者加重其刑至二分之一因而致贈於死者處5期徒刑或7年以上有期徒刑得併科新臺幣1億元以下罰金致重傷者處5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新臺幣8千萬元下罰金第一項至第三項之未遂犯罰金"},{"start":7608.58,"end":7612.014,"text":"宣讀為閉照審查會條文通過第19條"},{"start":7613.208,"end":7641.017,"text":"第19條違反第6條第一項第三款規定未經軍事機關許可於軍事營區內從事測量、錄影、攝影、描繪技術或其他偵查行為者處三年下有期徒刑公犯傑向之罪所用或犯罪預備之物其所剩之文字、圖畫、聲音、影像、電磁記錄及其附存物或其他物品不問屬於犯罪行為人與否莫收之宣讀完畢張老師審查會條文通過第20條"},{"start":7642.867,"end":7664.157,"text":"第20條以加害生命身體自由名譽財產知識恐嚇以本條例執行軍事隱居安全勤務之衛哨兵或執行軍官事關者處二年下有期徒刑軍役或新台幣20萬元下罰金宣讀完畢照協商條文通過委員王定宇臺灣民眾黨黨團分別提案第14條均不予採納第21條"},{"start":7665.851,"end":7685.342,"text":"第21條違反第6條第一項第一款規定未經許可進入軍事營區者予依警告獲儲新台幣4萬元上20萬元下罰還並令利己離開軍事營區其經告誡人不離開者得按次處罰宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第22條"},{"start":7686.638,"end":7714.944,"text":"第22條有下列執行之一者除新台幣3萬元以上15萬元加罰款已違反第6條第一項第三款規定未經許可與軍事營區委對其從事測量、錄影、身影、描繪、技術或其他偵查行為足深損害於軍事營區安全而違反第6條第一項第4款規定未經許可為足以影響軍事營區安全之行為宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第23條"},{"start":7716.314,"end":7744.341,"text":"第二十三條違反第六條第一項第二款規定衛星學科攜帶露營攝影器材觀測器槍炮彈藥裝械或其他防害軍事營區安全之物品進入軍事營區經勸告交付保管而具不聽從者非准其進入學科並得出新台幣一萬元以上五萬元下罰款宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第十七條不予採納第二十四條"},{"start":7745.117,"end":7764.315,"text":"第24條軍事機關派駐或駐紮與軍事營區以外處所執行警戒管制或其他直接或間接駐與維護該處所安全之必要勤務執行員除法律另有規定外其執行勤務準用第10條至第16條規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":7766.021,"end":7787.092,"text":"照行政院提案條文通過臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第18條第19條委員王定宇等提案第17條臺灣民眾黨黨團等提案第20條均不予採納第25條第25條本條例實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請務院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之條文"},{"start":7794.967,"end":7809.778,"text":"軍事營區安全維護條例第一條為維護軍事營區安全確保軍事演習、訓練及戰備任務之遂行達成國軍建軍戰備及防衛國家安全之目的特制定本條例"},{"start":7811.019,"end":7826.905,"text":"第二條本條例之主管機關為國防部第三條本條例用詞定義如下一、軍事營區指重要軍事設施或軍事機關之處地經軍事機關通報相關機關管制之軍事演習或軍事訓練場域或與演習或訓練期間視為軍事營區二、軍事營區安全勤務"},{"start":7834.788,"end":7850.2,"text":"指實施警戒、管制及其他直接或間接助於維護軍事營區安全之必要警務三、軍事機關指國防部及所屬機關構、部隊、學校、國際安全局及國家中心科學研究院視為軍事機關"},{"start":7852.261,"end":7869.506,"text":"4.衛哨兵指在軍事營區執行軍事營區安全勤務之衛兵、哨兵或其他擔任警戒職務之軍人5.衛哨所指衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全勤務之處所6.武器指手槍、護槍與其他槍械及刺刀"},{"start":7870.446,"end":7879.751,"text":"7.器械,指警棍電器及警棍器﹐瓦斯槍彈、捕繩網﹐更是束帶及其他器具8."},{"start":7879.751,"end":7886.274,"text":"裝備,指執行勤務所需之﹐器械防彈背心﹐頭盔等防護安全之相關配備9."},{"start":7886.274,"end":7895.139,"text":"核心資同系統﹐指直接用於重要軍事設施﹐且防護需求等僅為高知作戰指揮管制﹐戰備訓練及管理資訊系統"},{"start":7898.3,"end":7927.7,"text":"前項第一款重要軍事設施之種類由主管機關公告之重要軍事設施或軍事機關駐地屬居民和用者軍事營區之範圍由主管機關會商相關機關公告第一項第一款軍事機關通報之方式內容管制場域之公告及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關會商相關機關定之第一項第三款軍事機關經主管機關公告不列管制者不適用本條例之規定"},{"start":7928.54,"end":7956.777,"text":"第1項第6環及第7環武器及器械之種類由主管機關定之第4條軍事機關得於軍事營區之重要處所開設衛哨所並配置衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全勤務軍事機關得失安全維護需要於軍事營區四周必要範圍內裝置監視警報系統或阻絕器材等有關安全防護設施"},{"start":7958.874,"end":7975.888,"text":"第5條軍事迎娶安全勤務由各級主官或其授權人員以下簡稱指揮官指揮實施執勤軍官士官督導衛哨兵執行傾向人員於執行軍事迎娶安全勤務時得配備武器器械或裝備"},{"start":7978.294,"end":7993.465,"text":"第6條 非經軍事機關選客﹐不得與軍事營區或對其為下列行為﹐一、進入軍事營區﹐二、攜帶錄影攝影器材﹐觀測器、槍炮彈藥、刀械或其他﹐防害軍事營區安全之物品﹐"},{"start":7994.846,"end":8010.823,"text":"3、從事測量、錄影、攝影、描繪、技術或其他偵查行為4、其他經營主管機關公告影響軍事營區安全之行為傾向許可之申請審查程序、許可條件、費者許可及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":8012.464,"end":8029.151,"text":"第7條衛哨兵對申請進入軍事營區之人或物的實施安全檢查對拒絕檢查或經檢查不符合軍事機關管理規定者應拒絕其進入軍事營區甚有妨害軍事營區安全之餘使得強制距離"},{"start":8030.451,"end":8059.213,"text":"衛哨兵對離去軍事隱居之人或物﹐得實施安全檢查﹐對拒絕檢查者﹐等以強制力實施之指揮官、執勤軍官、士官﹐對無故侵入軍事隱居者﹐得命強制去離或採取其他必要措施有事實主任有刺探﹐收集國家機密或國防機密﹐軍事機密行為者﹐等以刑事訴訟法第88條規定進行逮捕﹐並即送交檢察官、司法警察官或司法警察"},{"start":8060.434,"end":8086.224,"text":"前三項安全檢查將自確立其他必要措施之實施程序及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第8條軍事機關所屬人員未及時阻止違法行為之發生避免急迫危險或防止危害過大得基於維護軍事營區安全之必要對軍事營區內有下列起行之意者實施軍事營區安全管束"},{"start":8086.924,"end":8108.129,"text":"並得檢查受管束人之身體及所攜帶之物一、因精神疾病服用毒品、麻醉藥品或其他相類之物或酒醉而生脫序行為二、意圖自殺或自傷三、暴行或鬥毆四、其他認為必須救護或有危害軍事安全之餘非管束不能救護或不能預防危害"},{"start":8109.95,"end":8130.563,"text":"實施前項軍事營區安全管束時應立即呈報指揮官將受管束人安置或隔離於寢室、醫務所或其他適當之處所並應即使以適當方法同時或交由受管束人之配偶、二親等內親屬或其指定之人或適當之機關公務或人員保護"},{"start":8131.823,"end":8157.078,"text":"第一項軍事營區安全管束應於危險或危害結束時終止之管束時間最長不等於24小時但於航行中之軍用艦艇經指揮官給予受管束人陳述意見之機會後不再此限前項後段但說情形不是用提審法之規定軍用艦艇返抵國內港口後受管束人或第三人申請提審時應將受"},{"start":8159.219,"end":8168.379,"text":"管束人立即結交法院第一項軍事營區安全管束者實施方式程序管理及其他相關事項之本法由主委機關定之"},{"start":8170.034,"end":8189.236,"text":"第9條行為人對於指揮官執行軍官、士官及衛少兵亦第7條所謂安全檢查、強制蓄力或其他必要措施或對於前條軍事機關所屬人員實施軍事營區安全管束部負責除其他法律另有規定外得當場向其陳述理由表示異議"},{"start":8190.517,"end":8209.197,"text":"前項議議指揮官執行軍官事關請問哨兵或實施軍事營區安全管束之軍事機關所屬人員認為有理由者應立即停止或變更任無理由者得繼續執行經行為人請求者應將其意義要旨製作記錄將複製"},{"start":8212.233,"end":8238.261,"text":"第10條指揮官、執勤軍官、士官及衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全勤務與有項鍊騎行之一時得使用器械必要時得使用武器一、為避免飛床變故維持軍事營區安全二、騷動行為足以危害軍事營區安全三、遙控無人機或其他無人飛行物體飛越軍事營區而有危害國防或軍事之設施或機密資訊之餘"},{"start":8239.822,"end":8252.616,"text":"4、警戒管制之場所、建築物、工作物、車船、航空機或財產遭受危害5、依法因逮捕之人拒捕、脫逃或他人助其拒捕、脫逃時"},{"start":8254.898,"end":8275.265,"text":"6.執行軍事營區安全勤務人員之生命、身體、自由或裝備遭受危害或脅迫或有事實主任有受危害之餘7.人民之生命、身體、自由、財產遭受危害或脅迫或有事實主任有受危害之餘8.持有凶器有滋事之餘,經告誡拋棄仍不聽從"},{"start":8277.327,"end":8293.866,"text":"9、依第7條規定執行安全檢查、講正確理或其他必要措施﹐非使用武器或器械不足以強制或制止衛哨兵﹐依前項第一款是第5款或第9款規定使用武器時﹐應依指揮官或執行軍官、士官命令執行"},{"start":8295.207,"end":8312.615,"text":"發生第一項、第四款、第六款或第七款諸行刑指揮官執行軍官、士官及衛哨兵執行軍事營區安全勤務無法有效使用武器或器械時得使用其他足以達成目的之物品該物品與使用時視為武器或器械"},{"start":8314.417,"end":8328.316,"text":"第11條簽條人員使用武器時應先實施警告但遭受突發性攻擊而不及實施警告或任何人意圖奪取武器而有簽條第1項第6款或第7款之情形時不再實現"},{"start":8329.757,"end":8358.568,"text":"前條人員使用武器或器械時應注意下列事項一、需基於事實需要合理使用﹐不得逾越必要程度二、非情況擊破物傷及致命之部位三、使用援引消滅應立即停止使用四、物傷及其他第三人前條人員使用武器或器械後﹐應將經過情形作審書面記錄﹐由使用人員所屬之軍事機關備查﹐並保存該記錄至少5年"},{"start":8359.408,"end":8383.917,"text":"實驗武器後並應及時報告該軍事營區最高指揮官第12條主管機關應領聘相關機關各位代表及專家學者組成調查小組等依職權或依軍事機關之申請就所屬人員使用武器或器械之人死亡或重傷爭議事件之使用時機過程與相關行政責任進行調查及提供意見"},{"start":8384.737,"end":8403.005,"text":"前項調查小組對於武器或器械使用土式性質判斷﹐得考量使用人員當時之合理認知第一項調查小組﹐得提供軍事機關使用武器或器械之教育訓練﹐及倫理促進等經營事項﹐其組織及運作方式由主管機關定制"},{"start":8404.659,"end":8421.329,"text":"第13條指揮官執勤軍官、士官及衛生兵使用武器或器械致現場人員傷亡時應迅速通報救護或送醫並做必要之保護或戒護第14條前條人員所屬軍事機關接獲通報後應進行調查並提供該人員射送輔助及諮商輔導"},{"start":8428.653,"end":8447.563,"text":"第15條 人民應指揮官執勤軍官、士官及衛哨兵﹐依本條例規定實施安全檢查﹐強制確立或採取必要之措施﹐或因軍事機關所使人員﹐依本條例規定實施軍事營區安全管束﹐致生命、身體或財產遭受特別犧牲之損失時﹐"},{"start":8448.343,"end":8469.039,"text":"得向指揮官執行軍官、士官衛哨兵或實施管束人員所屬之軍事機關請求補償但有可歸則與該人民之事有失得減金或免除其金額指揮官執行軍官、士官及衛哨兵依本條例規定使用武器或器械致第三人生命、身體或財產"},{"start":8470.22,"end":8498.34,"text":"遭受特別犧牲之損失時第三人得向指揮官執勤軍官、士官及衛哨兵所屬之軍事機關請求補償但有可歸則該第三人知事有實得減輕或免除其金額前二項損失補償應於之有損失時期二年內請求之但自損失發生後經過五年者不得為之對於軍事機關所為損失補償之決定不符者得依法提起訴願及行政訴訟"},{"start":8499.901,"end":8519.567,"text":"第一項及第二項捧場項目基準程序及其他相關事項執辦法由主管機關定之第16條指揮官執行軍官、士官及衛生兵執行軍事營區安全勤務違反本條例規定使用武器或器械致侵害人民自由或權利時依國家賠償法規定辦理"},{"start":8521.167,"end":8527.554,"text":"前向其行為執行軍事營區安全勤務人員出於故意行為所致者賠償義務機關的向其酬償"},{"start":8531.587,"end":8551.207,"text":"第17條以竊取毀壞或其他非法方法危害重要軍事設施之功能正常運作者處1年上7年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣1000萬元下罰金意圖危害國家或軍事安全而犯傑向之罪者處3年上10年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣5000萬元下罰金"},{"start":8552.888,"end":8572.541,"text":"前二項即行至釀成災害者加重其刑至二分之一因而致人與死者處物歧途刑或青年上有歧途刑得併根新台幣1億元以下罰金致重傷者處五年以上12年以下有歧途刑得併根新台幣8千萬元以下罰金第一項即第二項之未遂犯罰之"},{"start":8574.083,"end":8595.62,"text":"第18條對重要軍事設施之核心自動系統以下列方法之一為害其功能正常作者處一年以上青年下有期徒刑得併科新台幣一千萬元下罰金一、無故輸入其賬號密碼破解使用電腦之保護措施或利用電腦系統之漏洞而入侵其電腦或相關設備"},{"start":8596.901,"end":8613.966,"text":"二、無故以電腦程式或其他電子方式﹐干擾其電腦或相關設備三、無故取得山主或變更器﹐電腦或相關設備之電磁記錄製作專攻犯潛向之罪之電腦程式﹐而攻自己或他者犯潛向之罪者一同"},{"start":8615.026,"end":8643.036,"text":"意圖危害國家或軍事安全而犯前二項之罪者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得併抗性財幣五千萬元以下罰金前三項進行之量存在害者加重其刑至二分之一因而致責於死者處五期徒刑或七年以上有期徒刑得併抗性財幣一億元以下罰金至重傷者處五年以上五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑得併抗性財幣八千萬元以下罰金"},{"start":8643.616,"end":8660.302,"text":"第一項之第三項之未遂分罰之第十九條違反第六條第一項第三款規定未經軍事機關時刻於軍事營區內從事測量錄影攝影描繪技術或其他專長行為者處三年下有期徒刑"},{"start":8661.122,"end":8674.068,"text":"公範前項之罪、所用或犯罪預備之物及所生之文字、圖畫、聲音、影像、電子揭露及其附著物或其他物品不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之"},{"start":8676.963,"end":8691.2,"text":"第20條以加害生命身體自由名譽、財產知識恐嚇以本條例執行軍事營區安全勤務職位哨兵或執勤軍官事關者處二年下有期徒刑軍役或新台幣20萬元下罰金"},{"start":8694.54,"end":8709.77,"text":"第21條違反第6條第一項第一款規定未經許可進入軍事營區者予以警告或處新台幣4萬元以上20萬元下罰款並令利己離開軍事營區其經告誡人不離開者的按次處罰"},{"start":8711.031,"end":8736.678,"text":"第二十二條有項列執行之一者除新台幣三位元以上十五萬元下罰還一違反第六條第一項第三款規定未經許可於軍事營區外對其從事測量錄影攝影描繪技術或其他偵查行為足深損害於軍事營區安全二違反第六條第一項第四款規定未經許可為足以影響軍事營區安全之行為"},{"start":8738.218,"end":8761.137,"text":"第23條違反第6條第一項第二款規定未經許可攜帶錄影攝影器材觀測器槍炮彈藥刀械或其他防害軍事營區安全置物品進入軍事營區經勸告交付保管而拒不聽從者非准其進入許可並得儲新台幣1萬元以上5萬元下罰還"},{"start":8763.178,"end":8788.385,"text":"第24條軍事機關派遇或駐紮於軍事營區以外出所﹐執行警戒管制或其他直接或間接處於﹐維護該出所安全之必要勤務之人員﹐除法律另有規定外﹐其執行勤務準用第10條至第16條規定第25條本條例實行日期由行政院定之﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":8790.908,"end":8807.707,"text":"三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正決議軍事營區安全維護條例制定通過方案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言首先請李德維委員發言並截止發言登記"},{"start":8821.667,"end":8848.809,"text":"主席、財富院長、各位委員同仁、各位媒體朋友我想今天《軍事營區安全維護條例》三讀的通過草案的重點是本法為了修正相關營區安全的規範將過去營區門哨、安檢的措施、營區安全管束措施軍事設施防護等行政命令提升至法源的位階"},{"start":8849.89,"end":8857.455,"text":"而這當中包括衛軍許可不得進入營區攜帶攝錄飲相關的裝備或對於營區實施攝錄等偵查行為並因應科技的演進不得違反營區安全的行為訂定相關的規範"},{"start":8872.012,"end":8897.638,"text":"國民黨當然支持相關提高軍事雲區衛哨安全的執行與應變的措施但是這裡面也應該避免讓民眾對於本法恐有擴權或者設置不安的疑慮希望國防部在這個母法通過以後盡速將配合本法的七個法規、四個公告研議出來"},{"start":8898.638,"end":8914.141,"text":"而這裡面將臨時劃定的演習區以及訓練區列入軍事營區這樣子會不會讓很多不知情的民眾他所謂的軍事迷拍照攝影"},{"start":8914.882,"end":8943.952,"text":"就會有3年以下有期徒刑或者罰款的一個疑慮這個部分應該公開向社會大眾溝通說明讓這個法令的推動維護了相關軍事盈區的安全也保障民眾的權益達到國軍艦戰軍備以及防衛國家的安全目的謝謝接下來請邱辰元委員"},{"start":8957.142,"end":8972.436,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有全體國人很欣慰軍事營區安全維護條例可以在本屆完成三讀臺灣民眾黨重視軍事營區安全的維護以及人民權益的保障因此提出本黨團草案版本參與審查"},{"start":8973.797,"end":8987.614,"text":"未來除可強化軍事營區的安全同時將各項涉及人民權益的措施提升至法律未接的規範使符合法律保留原則以確保民眾權益而且達成"},{"start":8989.195,"end":9013.398,"text":"國軍建軍備戰與防衛國家的安全目的有鑒於兩岸情勢的惡化中共對我方重要營區的窺探日益增加以及過去常有假裝軍事民刻意透過無線電監聽塔台通訊掌握軍機起降時間並在軍機場跑道拍攝戰機起降等行為或是隨隊拍攝國軍地面部隊演習時"},{"start":9014.299,"end":9039.284,"text":"以及未經許可之下自行追蹤拍攝重大演訓或是刻意騷擾軍事營區等情勢無法有效因應處理因此今天的軍事營區安全維護條例的三讀至關重要未來除可依立法立即處置並可事後追溯防範相關影片、照片等不當刊登媒體或社群同時包含"},{"start":9047.606,"end":9061.329,"text":"本案的審查也凸顯容易使民眾入罪的疑慮有待國防部進一步完善明確各項執法明確以有故意犯案之動機者為懲戒標的並達成有效防制對岸情報"},{"start":9062.429,"end":9086.577,"text":"工作人員的滲透行為為立法目標在本案完成三讀之後相關的執法草案預告發布前均依照規定通報相關行政院審查以確保事切周延最後再表達本黨團簽字統一協商也謝謝所有的委員謝謝接下來請邱"},{"start":9088.869,"end":9096.5,"text":"接下來進行討論事項第13案原住民身份法修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":9097.847,"end":9119.621,"text":"本院內政委員會分別於111年5月9日﹐111年5月12日﹐111年5月23日﹐112年4月27日﹐及112年12月11日﹐召開全體委員會議審查本案由鄭兆景委員天才﹐及由趙景玉欲蘭擔任主席除邀請提案委員說明提案要旨﹐並邀請相關機關列席報告並備諮詢於報告及詢談完畢後﹐選舉進行逐條審查"},{"start":9126.746,"end":9143.407,"text":"與會議員聽取說明．經審慎演商及專密討論後．將全案併案審查完略本案併案審查完略．理據審查報告提報院會討論．院會討論前．不需經黨團協商．並推請由召集委員岳蘭．於院會討論時做補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":9145.149,"end":9168.402,"text":"請召集委員、有委員依然補充說明有委員沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議不需再交到黨團協商請委員會有異議、沒有異議本案建議審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論原住民身份法請宣讀第一條第一條為認定原住民身份保障原住民權益透支禮本法宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第二條"},{"start":9169.093,"end":9188.127,"text":"第二條本法所剩原住民包括山地原住民及平地原住民其身份之認定除本法另有規定外依下列規定一、山地原住民臺灣光復前原籍在山地行政區域內且戶口調查部登記其本人或直系寫信遵清楚屬於原住民者"},{"start":9188.707,"end":9208.481,"text":"二、平地原住民﹐臺灣關戶前原籍在平地行政區域內﹐請戶口調查部登記其本人﹐或直系寫信專清署屬於原住民﹐並徵請戶籍所在地鄉鎮市區公所﹐登記為平地原住民有案者宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過現行條文第三條刪除第三條"},{"start":9211.584,"end":9240.8,"text":"第三條復活母為原住民且符合下列各款規定之一者取得原住民身份一、取用復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字二、取用漢人姓名並以原住民族文字並列復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字三、從具原住民身份之復活母之姓一、前項第二款規定取得原住民身份者其子女從其姓者應依同款規定取得原住民身份宣讀完畢"},{"start":9241.957,"end":9265.262,"text":"稍後審查會條文通過第4條第4條非原住民今年滿40歲﹐請無曾與這原住民雙親共同收養﹐且符合下列各款規定者取得原住民身份一、被收養時未滿7歲二、取用或以原住民族文字﹐並列收養者之一所屬原住民族之傳統名字﹐或從收養者之一之姓"},{"start":9266.002,"end":9278.539,"text":"本法是行前未滿7歲之﹐非原住民﹐為原住民父母收養者﹐不受傾向雙親需年滿40歲﹐且無子女規定之限制宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第5條"},{"start":9279.946,"end":9305.291,"text":"第五條 原住民有下列情形之一者 喪失原住民身份一、依前二條規定取得原住民身份後﹐應變更姓名、職位符合各該規定二、依前條規定取得原住民身份後﹐終止收養關係三、成年後申請放棄原住民身份四、依本法中華民國110年1月27日休戰事期前之﹐第四條第三項規定取得原住民身份﹐"},{"start":9305.811,"end":9320.992,"text":"未於本法112年12月18日修正之條文施行之日起算二年內舉用或以原住民族文字並列原住民父或母所屬原住民族之傳統名字或從原住民父或母之姓"},{"start":9321.933,"end":9344.986,"text":"依前項第3款規定喪失原住民身份﹐請吾同項第1款或第2款規定請示者﹐得申請回覆原住民身份﹐其回覆以以次為限依第1項第3款規定申請喪失原住民身份者﹐其申請時致職系血清杯清署及原住民身份不喪失宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過現行條文第6條刪除第6條"},{"start":9345.885,"end":9361.778,"text":"第6條 未取得原住民身份﹐當事人得申請取用或以原住民主文字﹐並列原住民族傳統名字﹐或從據原住民身份之父或母之姓當事人未成年時﹐由法定代理人以書面約定申請﹐"},{"start":9362.498,"end":9380.339,"text":"成年後依個人意願申請不受《民法》第1059條第1項、第4項、第1078條第1項、第2項及姓名條例第1條、第2項規定之限制依前項規定申請取得原住民身份除出生登記外未成年時及成年後更以一次違憲"},{"start":9381.68,"end":9410.706,"text":"養子女依第一項規定申請取得原住民身份者得以利害關係人身份依戶籍法第65條規定向戶鎮事務所申請本身父母之戶籍資料或戶籍藤本宣讀完畢招審查會條文通過第7條第7條符合第2條是第4條規定取得原住民身份之要件而依申請取得原住民身份檢死亡者其子女準用第3條及前條是規定取得原住民身份宣讀完畢"},{"start":9411.462,"end":9438.374,"text":"照審查會條文通過第8條第8條 山地原住民與平地原住民結婚等約定變更為相同之山地原住民或平地原住民身份及子女之身份從之為依前項規定約定變更為相同之原住民身份者及子女與未成年時得由法定代理人寫意或成年後依個人意願取得山地原住民或平地原住民身份宣讀完畢"},{"start":9439.073,"end":9465.369,"text":"照審查會條文通過委員鄭天才等提案第8條之一不予增訂第9條第9條原住民因依其父母之所屬民族登記其民族別其原住民族傳統名字或從姓應與其登記之民族別相關聯且向原住民民族別之認定登記變更及其他相關事項之內法由中央原住民族主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第10條"},{"start":9466.748,"end":9481.948,"text":"第10條原住民身份取得喪失變更或回復之申請由護證事務所受理審查符合規定後於戶籍資料內為原住民身份別及民族列車登記並於登記後發生效力宣讀完畢"},{"start":9483.424,"end":9511.498,"text":"照審查會條文通過第11條第11條因戶籍登記存物脫落或其他原因戶登記為原住民身份或漏未登記為原住民身份者當事人戶籍所在地之戶證事務所應與之息後出面通知當事人為撤銷或更正之登記或由當事人向戶籍所在地之戶證事務所申請查明並為撤銷或更正之登記宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過第12條"},{"start":9512.574,"end":9518.479,"text":"第12條本法自公佈日實行宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請人經過二讀現有民黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請願會有一議沒有議請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":9525.1,"end":9548.94,"text":"第一條為認定原住民身份保障原住民權益特制定本法第二條本法所稱原住民包括山地原住民及平地原住民其身份證認定除本法另有規定外依下列規定一、山地原住民臺灣光復前原其在山地行政區域內且戶口調查部登記其本人或直系血親尊親屬屬於原住民者"},{"start":9549.82,"end":9565.03,"text":"2、平地原住民﹐臺灣光復前原籍在平地行政區域內且戶口調查部登記其本人或直系血清專心署屬於原住民並申請戶籍所在地鄉鎮市區公所登記為平地原住民有案者"},{"start":9568.226,"end":9585.053,"text":"第三條復活母為原住民且符合下列各款規定之一者取得原住民身份一、取用復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字二、取用漢人姓名並以原住民族文字並列復活母所屬原住民族之傳統名字"},{"start":9586.474,"end":9598.147,"text":"三、從具原住民身份之父或母之姓依前項第二款規定取得原住民身份者其子女從其姓者應依同款規定取得原住民身份"},{"start":9600.495,"end":9623.413,"text":"第4條非原住民經年滿40歲且無子女之原住民雙親共同收養且符合下列各款規定者取得原住民身份一、被收養時未滿7歲二、取用或以原住民族文字並列收養者之一所屬原住民族之傳統名字或從收養者之一之姓"},{"start":9624.453,"end":9633.781,"text":"本法施行前未滿7歲之非原住民為原住民父母收養者不受傑向雙親需年滿40歲且無子女規定之限制"},{"start":9635.683,"end":9661.419,"text":"第五條原住民有下列起刑之一者喪失原住民身份一、一檢調規定取得原住民身份後應變更姓名、職位符合各該規定二、一檢調規定取得原住民身份後終止收養關係三、成年後申請放棄原住民身份四、一本法中華民國110年1月27日休戰實習前之第四條第三項規定取得原住民身份"},{"start":9662.159,"end":9677.847,"text":"未於本法112年12月18日修正之條文施行之日其算二年內取用或以原住民族文字並列原住民父或母所屬原住民族之傳統名字或從原住民父或母之姓"},{"start":9678.988,"end":9699.393,"text":"一、前三項第三款規定喪失原住民身份且無同項第一款或第二款規定情勢者得申請回覆原住民身份其回覆以一次違憲一、第一項第三款規定申請喪失原住民身份者其申請時之直系寫清被清除之原住民身份不喪失"},{"start":9704.187,"end":9715.317,"text":"6.未取得原住民身份,當事人得申請取用或以原住民族文字並列原住民族傳統名字或重具原住民身份之父或母之姓"},{"start":9717.14,"end":9738.334,"text":"當事人未成年時由法定代理人以書面約定申請成年後依個人意願申請不受民法第1059條第1項第4項第1078條第1項第2項及姓名條例第1條第2項規定之限制依前項規定申請取得原住民身份除出生登記外未成年時及成年後各以一次違憲"},{"start":9739.656,"end":9752.414,"text":"養子女依第一項規定申請取得原住民身份者等已利害關係人身份依戶籍法第65條規定向戶證事務所申請本身父母之戶籍資料或戶籍藤本"},{"start":9755.461,"end":9777.723,"text":"第7條符合第2條是第4條規定取得原住民身份之要件而於申請取得原住民身份前死亡者其子女準用第3條及前條之規定取得原住民身份第8條山地原住民與平地原住民結婚等約定變更為相同之山地原住民或平地原住民身份其子女之身份從之"},{"start":9778.824,"end":9792.291,"text":"未依前項規定約定變更為相同之原住民身份者及子女於未成年時得由法定代理人協議或成年後依個人意願取得山地原住民或平地原住民身份"},{"start":9794.164,"end":9813.951,"text":"第9條 原住民因依其父或母之所屬民族登記其民族別﹐其原住民族傳統名字或從姓﹐因與其登記之民族別相關聯﹐其向原住民民族別之認定﹐登記便跟其其他相關事項之辦法﹐由中央原住民族主管機關定制"},{"start":9816.041,"end":9840.055,"text":"第10條原住民身份取得喪失邊緣戶回覆之申請由戶政署所受理審查符合規定後於戶籍資料內為原住民身份別及民族別之登記並於登記後發生效力第11條因戶籍登記存物脫落或其他原因戶登記為原住民身份或漏未登記為原住民身份者"},{"start":9840.835,"end":9860.678,"text":"當事人戶籍所在第一支戶政事務所﹐英語知悉後﹐書面通知當事人為撤銷或更正值登記﹐或由當事人向戶籍所在第一支戶政事務所﹐申請查明﹐並為撤銷或更正值登記第12條本法自公布日施行宣讀完畢"},{"start":9862.659,"end":9879.264,"text":"全案經過三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正決議原住民身份法修正通過法案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言首先請鄭天才委員發言並截止發言登記"},{"start":9901.619,"end":9919.831,"text":"主席、各位委員這次的原住民身份法的修正第一個是因應憲判制第四號判決將這個明定從原住民父親的姓並列傳統名字可以取得原住民身份"},{"start":9920.469,"end":9922.411,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":9941.511,"end":9966.882,"text":"這個養子女必須要終止收養關係之後才可以申請取得原住民身份我特別提出修法跟行政院辦都一起來討論可以不用終止收養關係而且明定排除民法第1078條的規定這個我們的養子女就可以申請取得原住民身份"},{"start":9967.507,"end":9994.434,"text":"這個是一個很重要的條文尤其是我特別增加一條第一項的規定也就是說養子女他要申請啟德原住民身份的時候依現行內政部的規定養子女不能申請本身父母的父親藤本那他如何去申請沒有父親藤本他如何去申請所以我特別要求一定要增加這一項這個"},{"start":9996.866,"end":9999.762,"text":"楊子女得以利害關係人身份可以申請"},{"start":10000.838,"end":10003.46,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告"},{"start":10029.141,"end":10031.003,"text":"本院財政委員會主席"},{"start":10068.087,"end":10093.402,"text":"接下來請廖國棟委員院長各位同仁今天原住民身份法終於完成三讀"},{"start":10094.546,"end":10109.684,"text":"這是歷經千辛萬苦經過草野協商得以完成的一個法案那麼相關的內容剛剛我們政委員已經做一個的說明我要特別要提的是這個法案在"},{"start":10110.603,"end":10113.828,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算"},{"start":10125.985,"end":10127.847,"text":"本院財政委員會本院財政委員會本院財政委員會"},{"start":10153.816,"end":10181.816,"text":"後續融貨還有很多事情要做但是我們的人民會現在遲遲沒有進一步的一個行動我們在這裡特別要求未來這個法案跟以前的三保條例37條一樣都是我本人也是國民黨的這個召委負責協調完成的"},{"start":10183.035,"end":10209.641,"text":"最後才完成以後這個執政黨就進行收割本人非常的不以為然最後我要再次的提出原住民自治法、土海法、土調會組織條例工作權保障法都有待繼續完成希望我們朝野共同為原住民的權益來執行相關的法律進度謝謝"},{"start":10217.222,"end":10222.486,"text":"報告委員會本日會議進行到此為止12月19日星期二上午9時繼續開會進行後續討論事項現在休息"}]}},{"id":"15357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15357","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed8d35ffd2b551d82e7918f073b306989d46d53a332764a5351ad4c1b45d6f1fd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-15T12:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第128屆經費稽核委員會第5次會議（事由：一、宣讀上次會議議事錄\n二、報告本院112年度預算執行情形（截至112年11月止））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-15","start_time":"2023-12-15T11:42:43+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第128屆經費稽核委員會第5次會議","committees":[30],"type":"委員會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":0,"sessionTimes":5,"id":"委員會-10-128-30-5"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-15T12:24:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":2477,"委員發言時間":"11:42:43 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員如果不在或者是整個空調好像24小時那我會覺得很耗電不知道有沒有可以改善的"},{"start":2141.96,"end":2142.721,"text":"有請總務處州處長說明有請"},{"start":2167.703,"end":2191.123,"text":"跟主席跟各位委員報告那個陳委員所提的這個會議室借用我想如果有空間的話我們當然會出借啦但是我們原則上這個院區裡面的這個會議室都是供現任委員來使用那最好的方式就是請現任委員代為借用這樣會比較好一點第二點就是我們會館不是24小時空調開著"},{"start":2192.344,"end":2194.145,"text":"現在就是說8點到晚上9點比如說整個整樓都沒人"},{"start":2221.653,"end":2238.109,"text":"那冷氣一直放著那這個部分就是請你們思考一下怎麼去節能發言委員我們那個中興大樓是中央空調的所以它是這個開了就是整棟大樓都是冷氣我現在譬如說講大安你是說住宿會館我是講那個會館住宿會館"},{"start":2243.534,"end":2258.666,"text":"都沒人,但是那個空調都開著,這個要怎麼來挑戰?報告委員,大安會館的委員住宿房間都是這個分離式冷氣外面那個是中央空調的對啊,我是說沒人都一直開著耗電啊,你剛剛"},{"start":2260.007,"end":2260.227,"text":"徐委員"},{"start":2290.659,"end":2306.249,"text":"李委員請好謝謝那個兩個部分第一個部分就是有關於這個因為前兩年疫情所以有些委員出國的這個補助他並沒有很多使用所以建議這個總務處這邊"},{"start":2309.871,"end":2311.812,"text":"委員提醒委員提醒委員提醒委員提醒"},{"start":2331.064,"end":2350.337,"text":"那請教對於卸任的委員這個到時候他們的一些打包啊或者怎麼樣那院裡面有沒有相關的一些協助的工作因為畢竟我看這一次應該也會有不少位委員來卸任所以這個部分是不是可以大概說明一下"},{"start":2352.623,"end":2356.628,"text":"有請國際事務處的林處長陳副說明剛剛那個國外出國的然後還要請總務處的周處長傑明說明這個打包的部分 謝謝"},{"start":2366.311,"end":2394.031,"text":"謝謝主席跟委員報告我們在國際處在今年的10月26號已經發了通案給113位委員的辦公室提醒委員在今年的年底要把這個過去三年保留的這個出國這個國會交流的預算要執行那明年度的話是明年的1月31號這一部分已經已經通案給各位奉秘書長合格通案給各位委員辦公室提醒各位那"},{"start":2394.731,"end":2399.475,"text":"我們會後會再提供一份copy給那個委員辦公室 以上 報告主席還有這個 各位委員 那個"},{"start":2413.223,"end":2431.397,"text":"每屆卸任的時候我們都有這個發包一個開口合約那我們今年是請原住民的這個這個搬家公司來幫忙這個卸任委員的打包跟運送這個沒有問題那個到時候這個我們會"},{"start":2432.278,"end":2433.839,"text":"好 那今天會議結束散會 謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"149037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/999752050c689f84b0ba25fe4f164a74af19a15924b5246dc986728e607a0322aa6d9d5be5f1c9245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"11:27:32 - 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-15","duration":134,"end_time":"2023-12-15T11:29:46+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-15T11:27:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（11時27分）首先謝謝我們游院長在今天能夠讓營養及健康飲食促進法三讀通過，這是營養界已經期待40年、倡議了40年的一個法，今天能夠三讀通過，真的非常高興，也期望透過這次立法能夠建構健康飲食的支持環境，提升人民營養及健康飲食知能，以及增進我們人民的健康。","依據國健署2017年至2020年的「國民營養健康調查」顯示，20歲至64歲的民眾中4個人裡面就有1個罹患代謝症候群。代謝症候群被認為與腦血管、心臟病和高血壓等慢性病的併發症密切相關，因此可以透過強化營養觀念、建構健康飲食的支持環境，以協助民眾透過健康行為來改善代謝症候群已經刻不容緩。","本法三讀條文有幾個重點，第一個，對於營養諮詢會議的討論意見，應採行適當的公民參與機制，能夠廣納更多元的見解。第二個，明定主管機關及各目的事業主管機關應逐年編列預算，辦理有關營養及健康飲食之促進，還有衛教的工作。第三個，衛福部過去常規執行的營養調查、研究及建置食品營養成分的資料庫也應明文入法，也希望能夠要求它定期發布。","最後，我要特別謝謝邱泰源召委的排審，讓這一次期待已久的法案能夠通過；我也要特別謝謝這兩屆以來持續提供我建議的營養師公會全聯會、黃青真教授與潘文涵教授能夠提供協助，也盼立法之後我們公私協力，讓我們共同逐步建立更好的營養及健康飲食環境。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","報告院會，今天會議到此為止，12月18日（星期一）上午9時繼續開會，進行後續討論事項。","現在休息。","休息（11時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":488,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","吳玉琴"],"page_start":185,"meetingDate":["2023-12-15"],"gazette_id":"1130101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130101_00004","1130101_00005","1130101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"營養及健康飲食促進法─ 完成三讀─","agenda_id":"1130101_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.64221875,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.87971875000001,"end":128.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.47034375,"end":132.90471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.689,"end":30.05,"text":"首先謝謝我們游院長能夠在今天能夠讓營養及健康營養促進法能夠三讀通過這是營養界已經期待40年倡議的40年的一個法今天能夠三讀通過真的非常的高興那也期望透過這次立法能夠建構健康飲食的支持環境來提升人民這個營養及健康飲食的智能"},{"start":30.49,"end":55.987,"text":"以及增進我們人民的健康那依據國健署的2017年到2020年的一個國民營養健康調查顯示20歲到64歲的民眾4個人裡面就有一個罹患代謝症候群代謝症候群被認為是以腦血管還有心臟病高血壓等慢性病的病發密切相關因此可以透過"},{"start":56.967,"end":71.62,"text":"一、強化營養的觀念二、建構健康營養的支持環境三、來協助民眾透過健康行為改善代謝症候群已經刻不容緩三、文法三讀有幾個重點一、對於營養諮詢會議的討論意見二、應採納適當的公民參與機制能夠廣納更多元的見解二、明定我們職管機關及各目的事業職管機關"},{"start":83.911,"end":102.683,"text":"因逐年編列預算辦理有關營養及健康促進的一個還有衛教的一個工作第三個是衛福部過去常規執行的營養調查研究及建置食品的營養成分的資料庫也因明文入法那也希望能夠邀請它定期發布"},{"start":104.199,"end":128.041,"text":"最後我要特別謝謝這個邱太元召委的排審能夠讓這一次這個期待已久的法案能夠通過那我要特別謝謝這兩屆以來持續提供我建議的營養師公會全聯會以及黃清真教授以及潘文函教授能夠提供協助那也盼立法之後我們公司協力讓我們共同逐步建立更好的營養環好 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-15","duration":135,"end_time":"2023-12-15T10:59:28+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-15T10:57:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.68346875,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.53971875,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.665968750000005,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.01971875,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.844093750000006,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":77.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.19096875000001,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.37409375,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.04846875000001,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.83096875000001,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.78409375000001,"end":133.17471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.221,"end":37.69,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁大家辛苦了運動是新興國力發展體育提振運動產業我們做最多也做最好過去8年政府對運動發展的政策不斷加深加廣加碼全民瘋體育提振了運動賽事的活絡而購票進場看球賽為運動員加油更成了臺灣人的日常尤其年輕世代更是支持運動賽事的主力消費者"},{"start":38.59,"end":62.6,"text":"但是黃牛無孔不入,擼起擼大胃,成為所有運動迷的心頭之恨向黃牛宣戰,要對症下藥今天,運動產業發展條例24條之一完成修訂《跟進文創法》感謝國會有志一同跨黨派支持,發揮意識的高效率運產條例的修法,讓打擊黃牛再下一程黃牛注意了"},{"start":63.821,"end":82.476,"text":"將運動賽事票券加價販售可裁罰票券金額或定價的10到50倍以不正方式掃票或是電腦大量掃票則除以3年以下的遊戲圖形新台幣300萬以下罰金讓黃牛罰得到也罰得痛事實證明修法確實有效"},{"start":83.317,"end":95.292,"text":"文創法的黃牛條款上路之後﹐文化部就收到超過1300件的檢舉案﹐各縣市都有開罰成立的案例﹐4個月的查緝開罰件數﹐高於過去10年的執行總數"},{"start":99.457,"end":117.89,"text":"所以查緝黃牛確實立法是有效的作為而查緝黃牛也需要配套例如建立檢舉制度給予吹哨者獎金推動鼓勵但不強制的實名制以及研議建立具有公信力的換票平台都是我們未來努力的目標"},{"start":118.911,"end":133.028,"text":"感謝所有同仁來團結屠牛未來如果能夠制定黃牛專法整合跨部會所有的政策工具來查緝黃牛我想我們的努力應當持續下去謝謝大家大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"149035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/999752050c689f84ed6c44c541a0c8deaf19a15924b5246dc986728e607a032211ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"溫玉霞","委員發言時間":"09:11:19 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\n二、12月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議","id":"院會-10-8-12","type":"院會","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":12},"date":"2023-12-15","duration":203,"end_time":"2023-12-15T09:11:05+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-15T09:07:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":14,"blocks":[["游委員毓蘭：（9時7分）大家早。北一女區桂芝老師批評108課綱，為了去中國化大量刪除文言文，甚至連顧炎武的「廉恥」都刪掉，這是個無恥課綱。綠營政治人物群起攻擊，賴清德辯稱這只是原則指引，蕭美琴也說接軌世界、與時俱進，108課綱自實施以來截至112年11月的統計，校園霸凌的通報案件量增加3.61倍，從過去的791件暴增到2,860件，這個數字代表什麼？根據教育部國語辭典，「禮」是人類的行為規範，「義」是合宜的事情，「廉」是政治不貪、有節操，「恥」是羞愧的心，這些小至個人的言行心態，大到國家治理的原理原則，不應該是每個人應該遵守的嗎？這也是其他國家透過宗教、法律、文化要求每一個人都需要做到的，怎麼會成為賴清德口中課綱只是原則之一，而無禮、無義、寡廉鮮恥？這些是為了蕭美琴的跟世界接軌，只好與時俱進嗎？連禮義廉恥都可以揚棄，當然更無法做到孔子所說的「己所不欲，勿施於人」了。","最近我們看到賴清德在面對自己老家的違建爭議時，數度哽咽痛哭，忘了在臺南鐵路地下化決定東移時，強拆民宅、毀人家園的不也是臺南市長賴清德嗎？蕭美琴在面對自傳中只有美國籍的國籍爭議時，宣稱他從來沒有放棄過中華民國國籍，而我們的政府也全部為他背書，卻忘了在新冠疫情之中，當滯留在對岸的小明們，他們回臺來跟親人團聚及求學的這些權益，都被陳時中的一句話「自己選的國籍自己承擔」這麼決絕的拒絕嗎？","當然，民進黨執政後的黨政要員們以抄襲論文、洗學歷為榮，醜事頻傳，緋聞更是不斷，我們有看到新聞局長和記者，或者是高官跟他的隨扈，長時間假借職權與機會來性侵，還有婚後外遇，公然地曬小三、溜私生子，桃花朵朵開。這些都讓人家見識到，當這個政府如何去實施沒有禮義廉恥的原則指引？如何與世界接軌、與時俱進？"],["主席：謝謝游委員。","接下來請溫委員玉霞發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"院會-10-8-12","speakers":["游錫堃","陳以信","李德維","游毓蘭","溫玉霞"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2023-12-15"],"gazette_id":"1130107","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130107_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期第12次會議紀錄","content":"國是論壇","agenda_id":"1130107_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.43534375,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.658468750000004,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.50596875,"end":57.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.540968750000005,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.28659375000001,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.29846875000001,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.79971875000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.82284375,"end":121.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.54784375000001,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.64409375000001,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.12471875,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.44909375,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.70971875,"end":166.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.63784375,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.74534375000002,"end":190.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.66784375,"end":198.85221875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.431,"end":36.946,"text":"大家早北印尼歐桂芝老師批評108課綱為了去中國化大量刪除文言文甚至連顧炎武的廉恥都刪掉這是個無恥課綱列印政治人物群起攻擊等賴清德辯稱說這只是原則指引蕭美琴也說節軌世界與時俱進"},{"start":38.387,"end":39.727,"text":"108課綱至實施以來﹐截至112年11月的統計﹐校園霸凌的通報案件量增加3.61倍﹐從過去的791件暴增到2860件﹐這個數字代表了什麼"},{"start":57.625,"end":85.485,"text":"根據教育部國語辭典理是人類的行為規範亦是合宜的事情聯是政治不貪有節操此是羞愧的心這些小自個人的言行心態大道國家治理的原理原則不應該是每個人應該遵守的嗎這也是其他國家透過宗教法律文化要求每一個人都需要做到的"},{"start":85.965,"end":101.32,"text":"怎麼會成為賴清的口中克剛指示原則之一無理、無義、寡廉、閒恥這些是為了要跟蕭美琴的跟世界接軌只好跟著與時俱進嗎"},{"start":104.041,"end":125.548,"text":"連禮儀連詞都可以揚起當然更無法做到孔子所說的即所不欲勿施於人了最近我們看到賴清德在面對自己老家的違建爭議時速度哽咽痛哭忘了在台南鐵路地下化決定東移時強拆民宅毀人家園的不也是"},{"start":126.878,"end":144.944,"text":"臺南市長賴新德巴小百姓在面對自傳中只有美國籍的國籍爭議時宣稱他從來沒有放棄過中華民國國籍而我們的政府也全部為他背書卻忘了在新冠疫情之中當滯留在對岸的小民們他們"},{"start":146.864,"end":163.361,"text":"回臺來跟親人團聚跟求學的這些權益都被陳時中的一句話自己選的國籍自己承擔這麼決絕的拒絕嗎當然民進黨執政後的黨政要員們一抄襲論文洗學歷"},{"start":167.225,"end":189.452,"text":"維榮、醜事頻傳、緋聞更是不斷我們有看到新聞局長和記者﹑或者是高官跟他的隨戶長時間假借職權與機會來做性侵還有在婚後外遇在公然的塞小三、六四生子這些桃花朵朵開"},{"start":190.852,"end":197.438,"text":"這些都讓人家見識到當這個政府如何去實施沒有禮義廉恥的原則指引"}]}},{"id":"149033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/999752050c689f8402949f63717d0807af19a15924b5246dc986728e607a032280da92c86ab9bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李德維","委員發言時間":"09:04:15 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- 09:03:55","影片長度":"00:03:18","會議時間":"2023-12-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第10屆第8會期第12次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院財政委員會報告彙總完成中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告案（社會福利及衛生環境委員會）；本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送經濟、財政、司法及法制三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案；本院財政委員會函送內政、教育及文化、交通三委員會113年度中央政府總預算案公務預算部分審查報告，請併「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告」討論案等15案。 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謝謝李委員接下來請劉委員預覽發言"},{"start":2274.653,"end":2297.168,"text":"大家早北英女歐貴之老師批評108課綱為了去中國化大量刪除文言文甚至連顧炎武的廉恥都刪掉這是個無恥課綱令政治人物群起攻擊等賴清德辯稱說這只是原則指引蕭美琴也說節軌世界與時俱進"},{"start":2298.609,"end":2299.931,"text":"108課綱至實施以來﹐截至112年11月的統計﹐校園霸凌的通報案件量增加3.61倍﹐從過去的791件暴增到2860件﹐這個數字代表了什麼"},{"start":2317.85,"end":2345.709,"text":"根據教育部國語辭典理是人類的行為規範亦是合宜的事情聯是政治不貪有節操此是羞愧的心這些小自個人的言行心態大道國家治理的原理原則不應該是每個人應該遵守的嗎這也是其他國家透過宗教法律文化要求每一個人都需要做到的"},{"start":2346.169,"end":2361.527,"text":"怎麼會成為賴清德口中克剛指示原則之一無理、無義、寡廉、閒恥這些是為了要跟蕭美琴的跟世界接軌只好跟著與時俱進嗎"},{"start":2364.269,"end":2388.178,"text":"連禮儀連詞都可以揚起當然更無法做到孔子所說的即所不欲勿施於人了最近我們看到賴清德在面對自己老家的違建爭議時速度哽咽痛哭忘了在台南鐵路地下化決定東移時強拆民宅毀人家園的不也是台南市長賴清德嗎"},{"start":2389.583,"end":2404.921,"text":"蕭美琴在面對自賺中只有美國籍的國籍爭議時﹐宣稱她從來沒有放棄過中華民國國籍﹐而我們的政府也全部為她背書﹐卻忘了在新冠疫情之中﹐當滯留在對岸的小民們﹐"},{"start":2407.083,"end":2407.383,"text":"本院財政委員會討論"},{"start":2427.428,"end":2449.661,"text":"維榮、醜事頻傳、緋聞更是不斷我們有看到新聞局長和記者﹐或者是高官跟他的隨戶﹐長時間假借職權與機會來做信心﹐還有在婚後外遇﹐在公然的塞小三、六四生子﹐這些桃花朵朵開"},{"start":2451.079,"end":2471,"text":"這些都讓人家見識到當這個政府如何去實施沒有禮義廉恥的原則指引好 謝謝余委員接下來請溫委員逸霞發言"},{"start":2492.179,"end":2519.045,"text":"主席、各位同仁、大家早今天我是以感恩的心情出席這個國事論壇回想四年前進入國會,懷著忐忑不安的心情萬萬沒想到竟然會是收穫滿滿的四年一起來代表僑胞與台商我曾經擔任過僑務委員、總統府國際顧問尤其在擔任世界台灣商會聯合總會的總會長之時曾和政府有過非常頻繁的接觸"},{"start":2520.575,"end":2528.889,"text":"但是擔任立委之後從請託別人到被人請託我才發現原來身份的轉換現實的差距是這麼的大"},{"start":2530.953,"end":2557.78,"text":"走過這一段歷程雖然辛苦但結果是十分的甘甜真的是非常有意義的人生經歷我要感謝國民黨的立委同仁四年前我初次踏入這個國會殿堂謝謝你們給玉霞指導與鼓勵尤其我們並肩作戰對抗民進黨的那段抗爭的過程雖然辛苦但這種共同打拚的革命情感令人珍惜"},{"start":2559.434,"end":2580.308,"text":"我也要感謝國會辦公室的同仁我們一起完成了一次又一次的任務有一些順利完成祝人為快樂之本有一些未能完成還有一些容忍在繼續推動之中我很希望說我們的接棒繼續的推動"},{"start":2581.75,"end":2608.235,"text":"這四年的每一天我們都是兢兢業業所以是把人民的利益放在最優先我們毫無例外如今還有一些未完成的工作希望下一屆的立委能夠接力的推動一起為人民造福第一 建立海外國人不在己的投票制度第二 爭取海外台商的僑胞應有的權益"},{"start":2609.986,"end":2629.317,"text":"3、擴大開放社福類的外籍移工來台降低申請門檻4、恢復退役上校子女的教育補助金5、提高護理人員的待遇改善資產環境這四年將是我一生中最難忘的四年"},{"start":2630.239,"end":2659.527,"text":"未來無論走到哪裡走到天涯海角感恩的心已經讓我們緊緊的相連在一起最後喻小榮要懇請大家一定要投票投給真正為百姓服務不獨一黨之師的總統和立委的候選人選協議呢是我們國家才能有未來的希望我這裡要特別感謝再次的感謝也謝謝大家祝大家身體健康事事如意"},{"start":2661.24,"end":2668.843,"text":"登記國事論壇發言委員"},{"start":5435.535,"end":5446.154,"text":"請林秘書長報告出席人數出席委員是7人以足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請林秘書長宣讀第8會期第11次會議（事錄"},{"start":5449.915,"end":5455.3,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期第11次會議議事錄時間 中華民國112年12月8日上午9時至9時6分10時1分至12時10分12月12日上午9時32分至12時30分下午5時至5時2分"},{"start":5471.916,"end":5489.949,"text":"地點 本院議場出席委員 邱委員 陳衍等104人請假委員 洪委員 孟凱等8人主席 院長游錫坤 副院長蔡吉昌報告事項 第一案先讀本院第10屆第8會期第10次會議一事錄決定確定第二至"},{"start":5495.353,"end":5512.726,"text":"第228案、第230案、第232案至659案均決定交付相關委員會審查或交付相關委員會第229案、第231案均決定退回程序委員會重新提出"},{"start":5513.366,"end":5536.532,"text":"第660案至663案為交通委員會等所提之報告案第664案為行政院函送本院委員提案之嚴處情形執行事項甲行政院答覆部分18件以本院委員執行部分6件討論事項第一案至20案經決議通過"},{"start":5539.755,"end":5564.306,"text":"第二十一案決議．案請由院長召集協商協商後再行處理第二十二案決議．請行政院嚴處第二十三案暫不處理其他事項一、民進黨黨團提議變更議程一案已通過二、民進黨黨團及臺灣民眾黨黨團分別提議抽出淨富二讀一案今已通過先讀完畢"},{"start":5567.628,"end":5593.318,"text":"報告委員會 針對第8會期第11次會議一事錄並如委員或黨團提出錯誤或疑弱之處作為下次宣告 第8會期第11次會議一事錄確定 請先讀第二案第二案 本院委員吳思瑤等16名鄰居不亦一致保存條例草案請審議案程序委員會見 您請回交教育界文化委員會審查宣讀完畢好 沒有意見通過 下案"},{"start":5593.956,"end":5615.069,"text":"第3案本院委員陳培宇等19人離聚注本《文化、產業、專心法》草案請審案陳秀元會見李晴玉匯交交際文化委員會審查宣讀完畢好 通過審案第4案本院委員趙天麟等17人離聚自動安全管理法修正草案請審案陳秀元會見李晴玉匯交交通委員會審查宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":5615.888,"end":5636.082,"text":"第5案本院委員趙天麟等18人離聚住宅法第4條條文修憲草案請選案陳秀永會接李錦惠交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第6案本院委員何志偉等17人離聚消防法部分條文修憲草案請選案陳秀永會接李錦惠交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5636.903,"end":5659.372,"text":"第7案本院委員何志偉等16人聯聚所得稅法第5條條維修正常勤審議案陳秀元會監理及匯交財政委員會審查宣讀完畢報告下案第8案本院委員何志偉等17人聯聚內政部警政署組織法第2條條維修正常勤審議案陳秀元會監理及匯交司法及法律內政兩委員會審查宣讀完畢報告下案"},{"start":5660.152,"end":5684.083,"text":"第9案本院委員何志偉等17人離聚農業部組織法第二條條維修政策案請審議案程序委員會建立行會交司法及法制經濟兩委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第10案本院委員何志偉等16人離聚經濟部組織法第二條條維修政策案請審議案程序委員會建立行會交司法及法制經濟兩委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5684.703,"end":5710.642,"text":"第11案本院委員何志偉等16人離聚氣候變遷因應法第5條條維修正常案請審議案柴旭委員會屆尼吉會交社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通教育及文化令委員會審查宣讀完畢通過審案第12案本院委員趙鴻祿等17人離聚公職委員參選申報法第5條條維修正常案請審議案柴旭委員會屆尼吉會交司法及法就委員會審查宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":5711.122,"end":5732.752,"text":"第13案本院委員張宏祿等18人離聚運動產業發展條例增列第24條之一條文採完請選一案陳秀元會見李錦惠加入交易及文化委員會審查宣傳閉通過下案第14案本院委員張宏祿等16人離聚工廠管理輔導法第31條條文修正採完請選一案陳秀元會見李錦惠加入經濟委員會審查宣傳閉通過下案"},{"start":5735.653,"end":5759.982,"text":"第15案本院委員張宏祿等18人離聚消防法第43條及第43條之一條文修正草原情緒案陳秀揚會見逆境匯交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通告下案第16案本院委員張宏祿等16人離聚噪音管制法第26條及第28條條文修正草原情緒案陳秀揚會見逆境匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":5760.542,"end":5777.886,"text":"第17案本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚﹐領導建設條例第3條﹐第7條及第7條之一條維修正常勤審案﹐陳秀元會監理及委員會交付經濟委員會審查宣傳並報告下案第18案本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚﹐領導建設條例第5條﹐條維修正常勤審案﹐陳秀元會監理及委員會交付經濟委員會審查宣傳並報告下案第19案"},{"start":5784.167,"end":5806.279,"text":"本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚（領導建設條例第10條條文修正草原情緒案．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第20案本院委員陳玉珍等16人凝聚（領導建設條例第14條第14條之一及第18條之一條文修正草原情緒案．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5809.441,"end":5830.34,"text":"第二十一案本院委員陳玉珍等16人離聚離島建設條例第16條條文修正草原請審案陳秀元會見立行會交經濟委員會審查宣傳並報告下案第二十二案本院委員范雲等17人離聚消防法部分條文修正草原請審案陳秀元會見立行會交內政委員會審查宣傳並報告下案"},{"start":5830.84,"end":5853.597,"text":"第二十三案本院委員外美領等17人．據《老人福利法》增訂第34條之一條文採完請選案陳秀元會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳閉通過審案第二十四案本院委員外美領等17人．據《醫療法》第106條條文修正採完請選案陳秀元會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳閉通過審案"},{"start":5854.958,"end":5868.017,"text":"第二十五案本院委員外媒林等17人聯聚緊急醫療救護法第二條及第十四條之一條文修憲採完行審案程序委員會見你請匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":5868.803,"end":5891.908,"text":"第26案本院委員外媒0等17人離聚社會救助法第4條及第11條條無修正裁判請審案陳秀恩會見立行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣傳完畢通過下案第27案本院委員外媒0等17人離聚政府採購法第98條條無修正裁判請審案陳秀恩會見立行匯交交通委員會審查宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":5892.368,"end":5908.053,"text":"第二十八案本院委員憲宜奉等16人理據住宅法第四條條文修正草案請審案陳秀文會見你請回交內政委會審查宣傳完畢報告下案第二十九案本院委員吳思瑤等16人理據今年基本法草案請審案"},{"start":5909.093,"end":5933.647,"text":"程序委員會建立行會教教育界文化委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第30案本院委員羅美玲等16人離聚海洋保育法草案請審案程序委員會建立行會教內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第31案本院委員林維瑞等16人離聚性別平等工作法第15條條文修正草案請審案程序委員會建立行會教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5936.008,"end":5960.095,"text":"第32案本院時代列讓黨團凝聚能供申請法部分條文修正草案精選議案﹐採訊委員會間﹐你請回交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩務委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案第33案本院時代列讓黨團凝聚租賃住宅市場發展習慣例條例立即條條文修正草案精選議案﹐採訊委員會間﹐你請回交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":5960.555,"end":5980.715,"text":"第34案《行政與環境審議工廠管理輔導法》第28條之14、第31條及第39條條文修正草案案陳秀元會見李景輝交經濟委員會審查宣傳並通過下案第35案《行政與環境審議消防法部分條文修正草案案》陳秀元會見李景輝交內政委員會審查宣傳並通過下案"},{"start":5981.696,"end":5996.592,"text":"第36案．基礎監督管理委員會函送《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正案之稅市支出評估報告及研議開放REITs在基金架構修正投信投顧法場案延伸會議會記錄程序委員會見議請會交財政委員會處理宣傳完畢通過先案"},{"start":6000.436,"end":6002.496,"text":"第37案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交教育及文化委員會審查下案"},{"start":6022.816,"end":6023.517,"text":"公告下案"},{"start":6043.295,"end":6043.615,"text":"通過下案"},{"start":6067.23,"end":6091.783,"text":"第42 行政委行為中華民國111年6月8日修正公佈之《國家安全法》第一條等條文訂自112年12月1日施行程序委員會見理情會交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第41 行政委行為中華民國111年6月8日修正公佈之《國家安全法》第三條第一項等條文訂自112年12月5日施行程序委員會見理情會交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6092.723,"end":6118.273,"text":"第四十二案 前經委行為中華民國112年6月28日修正公布之《入出國籍移民法》第三條等條文定自113年1月1日施行第七條之一等條文定自113年3月1日施行才修行會件你請回交內政委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第四十三案 前經委行為修正國家安全法施行新則部分條文才修行會件你請回交內政司法及法治兩委員會宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":6118.793,"end":6131.686,"text":"第44案銜金衛函送檢查機關及司法警察機關錄音錄影資料保管辦法長訊文會見理事委員會交互司法及法治委員會宣傳外賓公告下案第45案銜金衛函為中華民國112年9月23日定定發布之陸人資料保護委員會籌備處暫行組織規程"},{"start":6138.633,"end":6148.502,"text":"個人資料保護委員會籌備處辦事細則及個人資料保護委員會籌備處編制表除個人資料保護委員會籌備處暫行組織規程第2條第3款個人資料保護委員會籌備處辦事細則第5條第2款訂自113年1月1日施行外其餘條文及編制表訂自112年12月5日施行展示委員會建立監議會交由司法及法治經濟兩委委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":6162.506,"end":6168.565,"text":"第45案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交司法、法治、經濟兩委會審查下案"},{"start":6170.407,"end":6192.879,"text":"第46案 協議會韓維修正中小企業政策審議委員會組織規審第3條及第6條條文﹐協修委員會建立行會教育司法及法治經濟兩委員會﹐宣讀完畢通告下案第47案 協議會韓總國家核心關鍵技術項目及其主管機關併自112年12月5日生效﹐協議會韓維修正國家核心關鍵技術項目及其主管機關併自112年12月5日生效﹐協修委員會建立行會教育及文化委員會﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":6194.195,"end":6202.001,"text":"第47案國民黨黨團、臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查決定交教育及文化委員會審查下案"},{"start":6202.642,"end":6229.58,"text":"第40法案 行政委員會修正科技產業園區作業基金收支保管及運用辦法第二條、第六條、第十一條條文及產業園區開發管理基金收支保管及運用辦法第二條、第六條、第七條條文呈訊委員會見、理情會交、基金委員會宣布完畢通告下第49案 行政委員會修正中小企業研究發展支出適用投資體檢辦法第六條及第十七條條文呈訊委員會見、理情會交、基金委員會宣布完畢通告下"},{"start":6230.24,"end":6240.708,"text":"第50案行政委員會修正經濟部智慧財產局從事專利雙秒審查工作之聘用專業人員資格辦法第一條及第二條條文採訊委員會建立經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第51案"},{"start":6245.231,"end":6245.411,"text":"通過下案"},{"start":6262.347,"end":6291.105,"text":"第52案 行政委函送外交部擬拒致國際合作發展政策白皮書﹐程序委員會建立警衛將外交及國防委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案第53案 行政委函送本院修正性騷擾防治法﹐通過附帶決議這說明﹐程序委員會建立警衛將社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案第54案 行政委函為修正環境教育基金收支保護及運用辦法部分條文﹐程序委員會建立警衛將社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":6291.785,"end":6306.441,"text":"第55案 內政部航運修正已由消防組織編組訓練演習服勤班法第26條條文 採訊委員會間你請回交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第56案 內政部航運修正只採訊現實消防機關救護車輛裝備人力配置標準第6條條文 採訊委員會間你請回交內政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6313.468,"end":6339.262,"text":"第57案 內政務行為非指督導各級人民團體實施辦法及人民團體立案證書頒發規則陳秀元會見內警會交內政委員會宣讀完畢通過審案第58案 內政務行為修正警察監管學校行政學員生食物訓練特殊作業及專業警察員服事標示規定第二點及第23點之一規定陳秀元會見內警會交內政委員會宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":6339.702,"end":6359.441,"text":"第59案 內政部函送內政部消防署出入歸省等22項法規及編制表陳秀揚會見內政會交司法及法律內政兩委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第60案 內政部函送內政部國家公園署出入歸省等22項法規及編制表陳秀揚會見內政會交司法及法律內政兩委員會宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":6359.929,"end":6371.964,"text":"第61案 內政部函送內政部股東署﹑出戶歸宸﹑國土管理署﹑出戶歸宸等13項法規及編制表陳秀恩會見 您請回交司法及法徵內政兩委員會宣討完畢通過下案"},{"start":6372.472,"end":6394.45,"text":"第62案 內政部行為廢止內政部法規委員會．組織規程等8項法規及編制表．持續委員會間．移情匯交司法及法制內政兩委員會．宣布完畢通過審案第63案 內政部行為廢止內政部營建．署辦事細則等5項法規及編制表．持續委員會間．移情匯交司法及法制內政兩委員會．宣布完畢通過審案"},{"start":6394.89,"end":6418.199,"text":"第64案 內政部罕為廢止內政部消防署辦事細則等五項法規陳秀陽會見你請回交司法及法治內政兩委員會宣告完畢通過下案第65案 內政部國防部罕為廢止臺灣地區縣警外事勤務權責劃分及聯繫辦法陳秀陽會見你請回交內政外交及國防兩委員會宣告完畢通過下案"},{"start":6418.854,"end":6438.219,"text":"第66案海洋委員會海外修正海洋氣質許可管理辦法採訊委員會間引起委員會交內政委員會宣讀完畢通過審案第67案國防部海外修正空軍中央學校組織規程第5條第6條及第7條條文採訊委員會間引起委員會交司法及法治外交及國防兩委員會宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":6438.719,"end":6441.962,"text":"60法案 國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交外交及國防委員會審查下案"},{"start":6456.803,"end":6476.946,"text":"第69案．公務委員會函送113年度永久居留權．取得困難之國家或地區及其居留資格認定基準．修委員會見．立行委員會交及國防委員會．宣傳完畢通過寫案第70案．經濟部海外修正．原產地證明書及加工證明書管理辦法．修委員會見．立行委員會交經濟委員會．宣傳完畢"},{"start":6477.426,"end":6494.086,"text":"通過審案第七十一案經濟部海外修正瀕臨絕種種植物及其產製品輸出入管理辦法陳修援會見理情匯交經濟委員會宣討完畢通過審案第七十二案經濟部海外修正法定度量行期所涵蓋種類及範圍陳修援會見理情匯交經濟委員會宣討完畢"},{"start":6497.31,"end":6497.85,"text":"通過下案通過下案通過下案通過下案"},{"start":6520.618,"end":6544.153,"text":"第75案經濟部海維修陣設置非再生能源自自用發電設備業務報表申報及查核辦法第二條及第八條條文財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣誓完畢通過審案第76案經濟部海維修陣供用受電業供受電能報表申報及查核辦法第二條及第八條條文財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣誓完畢通過審案"},{"start":6546.054,"end":6565.089,"text":"第70期案（經濟末廉維修正再生能源發電設備設置者與電業專業調節辦法第二條條文（採訊委員會建立行會將接近委員會宣傳完畢通過審案第70方案（經濟末廉維修正貨品輸出管理辦法（採訊委員會建立行會將接近委員會宣傳完畢通過審案"},{"start":6565.569,"end":6586.626,"text":"第79案．經濟部行為國營事業編列．研究發展支出．占總預算比例．名稱修正為．國營事業編列．研究發展支出．暫期總支出．預算比例．修正規定．承受委員會見．例行會交．經濟委員會．宣讀完畢通告下案第80案．經濟部行為修正．礦業權費收費辦法．承受委員會見．例行會交．經濟委員會．宣讀完畢"},{"start":6589.81,"end":6605.677,"text":"通過下案第81案經濟目海維修正輸出入戶品電子潛水管理辦法採訊委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳改變通過下案第82案經濟目海維修正裝預前檢驗監控管理辦法部分條文採訊委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳改變通過下案"},{"start":6608.878,"end":6632.538,"text":"第84案經濟部海維修正除時卸容許後用能源基準與能源效率分級標示方式分級標示事項方法及檢查方式曾修容會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案第84案經濟部海維修正貿易處分案件聲明意義處理辦法部分條文曾修容會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案"},{"start":6633.098,"end":6653.306,"text":"第85案經濟部函送經濟部受理戰略性高分析貨品堅定收費標準財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣布完畢報告下案第86案經濟部海外修正採取土石免申辦土石採取許可管理辦法財修委員會兼理性匯交經濟委員會宣布完畢86案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交經濟委員會審查下案"},{"start":6658.547,"end":6685.701,"text":"第87案經濟幕行為張濱工業區縣溪淨水場工業用水使用廢廢率明確修正為張濱產業園區縣溪淨水場工業用水使用廢廢率並修正規定陳修揚會見理行會交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第88案經濟幕行修正原住民地區參與再生能源設置示範獎勵辦法第二條條文陳修揚會見理行會交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":6686.201,"end":6700.894,"text":"第89案經濟部航運修正外銷水產品特約檢驗辦法第2條條文陳修揚會見你請願回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案第90案經濟部航運修正盤水管理辦法第7條、第9條及第30條條文陳修揚會見你請會交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過審案"},{"start":6706.243,"end":6711.866,"text":"第91案經濟物財政部航運修正科技產業園區保稅醫務管理辦法部分條文及科技產業園區區內事業從事轉運業務課稅作業辦法部分條文財修委員會見引請匯交經濟財政兩委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6722.091,"end":6741.715,"text":"第92案經濟部財政部還未修正公司或有限合夥事業研究發展支出適用投資體檢辦法第8條基地19條條文等思想法規陳秀元會見你請回交經濟財政兩委員會宣布完畢通過審案第93案經濟部內全部還未修正商業團體分業標準增訂虛擬通貨商業團體業別及業務範圍陳秀元會見你請回交經濟內政兩委員會宣布完畢通過審案"},{"start":6748.998,"end":6759.455,"text":"第九十四案經濟部交通部海維修正資料容許後用能源標準及檢查管理辦法第二條條文講述委員會見你請回交經濟交通兩委員會宣讀完畢通過寫案"},{"start":6761.141,"end":6774.913,"text":"第95案 農業部行為促進農業部農田水利組織門管理處農田水利稅市範圍程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳閉通告這案第96案 農業部行為行政與農業委員會花蓮區農業改良廠辦理農藥田間試驗收費標準名稱修正為農業部花蓮區農業改良廠辦理農藥田間試驗收費標準並修正條文程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣傳閉通告這案"},{"start":6788.695,"end":6795.665,"text":"第97案 農業部航運行政院農業委員會﹐高雄區農業改良廠﹐奔領農藥體監訓研收費標準﹐名稱修正為﹐農業部高雄區農業改良廠﹐奔領農藥體監訓研收費標準﹐並修正條文在修理委員會間﹐你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":6806.141,"end":6830.26,"text":"第98案農業部海運修正公告．美國北達科他州．自高病原性家庭流行性感冒肺炎去身處．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會．宣布完畢通過審案第99案農業部海運修正公告．美國威斯康星州．自高病原性家庭流行性感冒肺炎去身處．程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會．宣布完畢通過審案"},{"start":6831.331,"end":6842.946,"text":"第102 農業部海域修正公告．美國馬里蘭州自高避免性家庭流行性感冒非去刪除．宣揚會見．您請回交基金委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":6843.601,"end":6869.02,"text":"第101案農業部喊為修正公告美國查治亞州及俄亥俄州自高平原性價錢流失性感冒非議區刪除陳修揚會見你請回交捐獻委員會宣討完畢通過審案第102案農業部喊為行政院農業委員會補助及獎勵農業保險保險人辦法明確修正為農業部補助及獎勵農業保險保險人辦法並修正第6條及第9條條文陳修揚會見你請回交捐獻委員會宣討完畢通過審案"},{"start":6872.603,"end":6891.901,"text":"第103案 農業部函為行政院農業委員會查列改良廠﹐受託辦理、查頁、品質檢驗及建設收費標準﹐名稱修正為﹐農業部查行料作物改良廠﹐受託辦理、查頁、品質檢驗及建設收費標準﹐並修正條文﹐求修文會見﹐理行會及經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過審案"},{"start":6893.142,"end":6900.006,"text":"議案第104案 農業部函維協政院農業委員會臺中區農業改良廠分離農藥田間訓研收費標準 名稱修正為農業部臺中區農業改良廠分離農藥田間訓研收費標準並修正條文採訊委員會間 立行會長經濟委員會宣傳畢通過下案"},{"start":6910.151,"end":6937.974,"text":"第105案農業幕海委行政院．農業委員會．科學技術研究發展．成果歸屬及應用辦法．名稱修正為．農業部科學技術研究發展．成果歸屬及應用辦法．並修正條文．採修委員會件．你請回交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第106案農業幕海委修正．農業用地變更回饋金．剝繳及分配利用辦法．第8條條文採修委員會件．你請回交經濟委員會宣讀完畢通過下案那個106案"},{"start":6939.516,"end":6942.129,"text":"國民黨黨團第一改交審查決定交進行委員審查下"},{"start":6943.837,"end":6970.792,"text":"第107案（農業部海維修正委員神釣魚全副大西洋作業管理分法部分條文及第6條附件4附件5第61條附件13（程序委員會間你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢好 通過下案第108案（農業部海維修正從事農業工作（農民申請參加農民健康保險認定標準及資格審查辦法部分條文程序委員會間你請回交經濟委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":6971.252,"end":6993.988,"text":"第109案農業部海外修正遠洋漁業條例第17條定向所定與我國相互執行公海等簡直國家及指定船舶程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣布完畢報告下案第110案農業部海外修正公告美國科羅拉多州自高明遠性加強流行性感冒肺炎去刪除程序委員會見你請回交經濟委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":6995.646,"end":7023.651,"text":"通過下案第111案財政部行為機動調降普特蘭一型水泥汽油及產油貨物稅應徵稅額財政委員會建立行會交財政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第111案財政部行為機動調降牛肉烘焙用、奶粉、奶油、污水、奶油及小麥等22項貨品關稅稅率實施期限自113年1月1日起至同年3月31日至財政委員會建立行會交財政委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7024.191,"end":7038.142,"text":"第113案財政部海綿修正轉運及轉口戶通關管理辦法部分條文．勸委員會建立行會交財政委員會宣讀完畢113案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交財政委員會審查下案"},{"start":7038.72,"end":7041.122,"text":"114案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交財政委員會審查下案"},{"start":7054.861,"end":7056.723,"text":"115案國民黨黨團體改組審查決定交財政委員審查下"},{"start":7071.809,"end":7073.89,"text":"116案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定交財政委員審查下案"},{"start":7092.967,"end":7115.889,"text":"第11期案．一部海外修正學校法人及其所屬私立學校教職員．修復序離職此前條例實行新則部分條文．修行會見臨行會教育司法及法治教育界文化兩位委員會．宣討完畢通過下案第118案．一部海外修正國家圖書館編制表．修行會見臨行會教育司法及法治教育界文化兩位委員會．宣討完畢通過下案"},{"start":7116.449,"end":7140.147,"text":"第1、9案教育部函域修正教育部特殊教育諮詢會設置辦法陳修揚會見你請回交教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案第1、2、0案教育部函域修正國立特殊教育學校及國立高級中等以下學校特殊教育教師每週教學結束標準第一條及第12條條文陳修揚會見你請回交教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":7140.7,"end":7160.428,"text":"第1、2、1案教育部韓維費值高級中等進修學校學生成績考察辦法陳修文會見理情會教教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案第1、2、2案教育部韓維修正國民中學進業教育實施辦法部分條文陳修文會見理情會教教育及文化委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":7161.048,"end":7189.762,"text":"第123案教育部函偉修正國民體制能檢測實施辦法﹐財修委員會見您請回交教育及文化委員會宣告完畢公告下案第124案教育部函偉修正幼兒教保及照顧服務實施準則部分條文財修委員會見您請回交教育及文化委員會宣告完畢公告下案第125案教育部函偉修正教育部甚至學術獎辦法第二條、第五條及第七條、十一條文財修委員會見您請回交教育及文化委員會宣告完畢"},{"start":7190.762,"end":7191.242,"text":"通過下案通過下案通過下案"},{"start":7211.437,"end":7238.103,"text":"第128案 教育部行為生性障礙成人教育及﹐終身學習活動實施辦法﹐名稱修正為﹐生性障礙成人終身學習活動實施辦法﹐並修正條文採訊和會見﹐你請回交交集文化委員會﹐宣讀完畢通過下案第129案 教育部行為修正﹐高級中等校學校及幼兒園﹐閩南語師資培育及聘用辦法﹐第二條及第三條條文採訊和會見﹐你請回交交集文化委員會﹐宣讀完畢"},{"start":7239.11,"end":7256.562,"text":"通過宣案第13領案就一部行為特殊教育課程教材教法及憑良方式實施辦法明確修正為高級中等下學校特殊教育課程教材教法及憑良實施辦法並修正部分規定陳修揚會計的年輕會教教育及文化委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":7258.03,"end":7270.084,"text":"通過下案第131案 教育部交通部海維修正學校消動社育管理辦法第3條、第10條及第11條條文採訊委員會見議請回交教育界文化交通兩委委會宣傳並"},{"start":7272.441,"end":7291.316,"text":"王國賢第一、三、二、二﹐國家科學及技術委員會﹐函送祝加拿大臺北經濟文化代表處﹐與加拿大駐臺北貿易辦事處﹐間﹐科學技術合作了解備用路﹐中英法文引本程序委員會見﹐請回交交集文化外交及國防兩委員會宣誓完畢"},{"start":7292.438,"end":7294.1,"text":"通過下案通過下案"},{"start":7308.055,"end":7331.378,"text":"第13、42河南安全委員會函送國家原子能科技研究院績效評鑑辦法第3條條文集逐條說明看護票陳迅委員會見你請回交交通外交及國防兩位委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第13、52命交通部函送臺越觀光合作瞭解備用路續約附路陳迅委員會見你請回交交通外交及國防兩位委員會宣讀完畢好通過下案"},{"start":7331.823,"end":7351.761,"text":"第136案交通部海維修正車輛變換及運用辦法第4條、第8條及第9條文採取委員會見你行會交交通委員會宣誓完畢通過審案第137案交通部海維公告採用國際海事組織IMO所屬海事安全委員會MSC第105次會議所採納MSC.500105決議之國際海事固體省專貨物IMS"},{"start":7358.287,"end":7377.782,"text":"B、C章程修正案柴修委員會見你請回交交通委員會宣布外幣通過下案第13頒案數位發展部還未廢止網際網路零售業及網際網路零售服務平台業﹐個人資料等安全維護計畫及業務終止後﹐個人資料處理作業辦法柴修委員會見你請回交交通委員會"},{"start":7378.522,"end":7398.179,"text":"宣讀完畢通告下案第1392 司法院航運修正法官職務評定班法第二條及第16條條文採取委員會見你請回交司法及法事務委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第1402 考試院航運修正公務人員申請法實行細則部分條文採取委員會見你請回交司法及法事務委員會宣讀完畢通告下案"},{"start":7398.679,"end":7423.391,"text":"第141案 考試院函文修正公務人員高端考試3等考試及普通考試規則第12條條文第2條附表1及第4條附表3採訊委員會建立行匯交司法及法治委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第142案 考試院函文修正公務人員特種考試一般檢查人員考試規則第6條第11條條文及第5條附表2採訊委員會建立行匯交司法及法治委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7424.291,"end":7441.436,"text":"第13次案．法務部函為修正法務部編制表陳秀元會見．立行會交 司法及法治委員會宣讀完畢通過審案第14次案．勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部分條文通過附帶決議第三項是說明陳秀元會見．立行會交 社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":7442.156,"end":7465.645,"text":"宣讀完畢通過下案第145案勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決定7項之說明採訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第146案勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決定8項之說明採訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7466.145,"end":7487.652,"text":"第1次起案 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部門條文通過附帶決議第9項之說明 陳修揚會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳會議 通過下案第1次方案 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部門條文通過附帶決議第11項之說明 陳修揚會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳會議 通過下案"},{"start":7488.212,"end":7509.906,"text":"第149案．勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法．部分條文通過附帶決定十三項之說明．修文會見．請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第150案．勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法．部分條文通過附帶決定十三項之說明．修文會見．請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7510.786,"end":7533.125,"text":"第1512 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決議第14項之說明８採訊委員會建立新匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會８宣讀完畢通過下案第1522 勞動部函送本院修正性別平等工作法部份條文通過附帶決議第15項之說明８採訊委員會建立新匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會８宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7534.386,"end":7536.908,"text":"154案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定交社福利及衛生環境委員審查下案"},{"start":7562.489,"end":7591.596,"text":"第155案勞動部衛生修正執行室及縣市政府辦理協助職業災害勞工重返職場補助辦法部分條文採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢第155案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定交社會利益及衛生環境委員會審查下案第156案衛生福利部衛生環境委員會修正藥事法第27條之二必要藥品清單採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":7593.029,"end":7598.428,"text":"156案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7598.908,"end":7624.311,"text":"第157案衛生福利部函送食品器具容器包裝檢驗方法金屬合金類與食物直接接觸面為金屬合金者致檢驗採訊委員會建立行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣告下案第158案衛生福利部函會廢止真空包裝黃豆及食食品應向中央主管機關辦理查驗登記採訊委員會建立行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣告下案"},{"start":7624.791,"end":7653.846,"text":"第159案衛生福利部海維修正嚴憑零固定交由含量檢測其中其標示本法第11條及第12條條文採訊委員會見年輕會教社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢159案國民黨黨團體改造審查決定教授歷史衛生環境委員會審查下案第160案衛生福利部海維修正食品添加物規格檢驗方法使用藍色1號採訊委員會見年輕會教社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":7655.646,"end":7656.147,"text":"通告下案"},{"start":7673.408,"end":7697.42,"text":"第162案衛生福利部罕為廢止國家公園．國家自然公園．風景特定區及森林遊樂區．如副表所示之區域．與公園綠地為除西煙區外部的西煙．衛設西煙區．全面禁止西煙之場所．採訊委員會前．擬行外交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通告下案第163案衛生福利部罕為修正．全面健康保險．投保金額分期表並自113年"},{"start":7700.041,"end":7717.172,"text":"113年1月1日施行．訓委員會建立請回交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第164案衛生福利部海外修正食品總配糖生物減脂檢驗方法．訓委員會建立請回交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7718.032,"end":7738.42,"text":"第165案衛生福利部還未修正．農藥殘留容許量標準第3條附表1．第4條附表3．動物產品中．農藥殘留容許量標準第3條條文．採訊委員會建立請匯交．社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢165案國民黨黨團提交審查決定交受立即衛生環境委員審查下案"},{"start":7738.973,"end":7767.075,"text":"第1662 衛生福利部海外修正．品添加物規的檢驗方法．法堂基以虎皮肝病致113年1月1日生效．修委員會建立秦惠礁．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣傳完畢通過下案第1657 衛生福利部海外修正．中藥材研究診查費收費標準第二條第二條之一及第十條條文．修委員會建立秦惠礁．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7768.206,"end":7782.857,"text":"第16法案衛生福利部海外修正醫療現場許可證和方語登錄及年度申報準則部分條文及第5條附表1、第6條附表2、附表3採取委員會見你請換交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案"},{"start":7783.337,"end":7805.471,"text":"第169案衛生福利部海維修正應訂定食品安全監測計畫與應辦理檢驗之食品驗者最低檢驗週期及其他相關事項的第18點規定並自113年7月1日生效求學員會見例行會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣布完畢169案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7806.038,"end":7835.631,"text":"第1702衛生福利部函為廢止健康食品工程良好作業規範．並自114年1月1日生效．詮訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第171案衛生福利部函送健康食品製造良好作業規範標準．詮訊委員會建立請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢171案國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7836.26,"end":7851.811,"text":"第172案衛生福利部函文修正函件決定特殊營養食品屏幕及遜印證．討論委員會兼例行為交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢172案國民黨黨團提改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7852.386,"end":7879.453,"text":"第174案衛生福利部罕為廢止食品添加物傳言登記相關規定財修委員會建立行會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第174案衛生福利部罕為修正食品與相關產品傳言登記及許可文件管理辦法財修委員會建立行會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢174案國民黨黨團提議改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查下案"},{"start":7879.98,"end":7900.611,"text":"第175案衛生福利部函維修正衛生福利部各醫院辦事細則財修委員會見逆行匯交司法計畫則社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案第176案環境部函維修正國家環境教育獎獎勵辦法第9條條文財修委員會見逆行匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":7901.091,"end":7925.069,"text":"第177案環境部海外修正汽油及替代清潔燃料引擎、汽車、車型排氣、水液合格證明、核發、稅銷及廢紙辦法﹐採訊委員會建立行外交、社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣傳完畢通告下案第178案環境部海外修正汽油及車廢棄排放測試方法與程序﹐採訊委員會建立行外交、社會福利及衛生環境委員會﹐宣傳完畢"},{"start":7925.529,"end":7949.434,"text":"通過下案第179案環境部海外修正屬產業用料需求之事業廢棄物公告事項第一項採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通過下案第180案環境部海外修正事業廢棄物主存清除處理方法及順勢標準第4條之一及第29套套文採訊委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":7950.594,"end":7976.883,"text":"議案 國民黨黨團體改交審查決定交稅務力及衛生環境委員審查下案議案 環境部本委中華民國111年4月28日定定公告之一次用飲料杯限制使用對象及實施方式公告事項 第1款有關澎湖縣飲料店部的提供塑膠一次用飲料杯實施日期定自113年7月1日施行甲醺氧會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢通告下案"},{"start":7977.783,"end":7996.9,"text":"第182案環境目函為中華民國111年4月28日定定公告之一次用飲料杯限制使用對象及實施方式公告事項三第一環有關南投線飲料店不得提供塑膠一次用飲料杯實施日期定自113年1月1日實行財修委員會建立行外交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":7998.241,"end":8021.953,"text":"第184案環境部函維行政與環境保護署資源回收費率審議委員會設置辦法明稱修正為環境部資源回收費率審議委員會設置辦法並修正條文財修委員會見你請匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通告下案第184案環境部函維修正署染防治費費率審議委員會設置辦法第3條第4條及第5條條文財修委員會見你請匯交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":8026.942,"end":8035.851,"text":"184案 國民黨黨團提改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查下案185案 國民黨黨團提改交審查決定交社會福利及衛生環境委員審查下案"},{"start":8048.032,"end":8064.005,"text":"第1862 環境部海外修正以網路傳輸方式 申報廢棄物質產出 儲存 清除 處理 再利用 輸出及輸入前期之申報格式項目 內容及頻率公告是項目第五項之一財經委員會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣傳完畢"},{"start":8064.525,"end":8087.644,"text":"通過下案第187案環境部海外修正會發行有機物、空氣與污染管制及排放標準採訪委員會兼理情委員會交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣布完畢通過下案第188案環境部函送本院制定環境部組織法通過附帶局第二項執法令進行採訪委員會兼理情委員會交司法及法徵社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣布完畢通過下案"},{"start":8088.164,"end":8111.696,"text":"第189案环境部函送本院制定环境部组织法通过附带决议第6项之807型採訊案彙建年轻会交司法及法治社会福利及卫生环境委员会宣传完毕通过下案第1902案环境部函送本院制定环境部组织法通过附带决议第8项之807型採訊案彙建年轻会交司法及法治社会福利及卫生环境委员会宣传完毕通过下案"},{"start":8112.276,"end":8135.264,"text":"第191案．環境部函送本院制定環境部組織法．通過附帶決定時向職辦人請行．強修委員會見．立行外交司法及法制．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣讀完畢通過下案第192案．環境部函送本院制定環境部組織法．通過附帶決定時向職辦人請行．強修委員會見．立行外交司法及法制．社會福利及衛生環境委員會．宣讀完畢通過下案"},{"start":8136.324,"end":8157.327,"text":"第193案 環境部函總本院指定環境部化學物質管理署組織法．通過附帶決議之辦人清醒．詳細網友會見．您請獲交司法及法律社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢通過報告委員會第194案至第765案請依序宣讀"},{"start":8158.522,"end":8160.684,"text":"其中第202、21、215、218到21、225到232、235、239、353到355、353、385、387、388、415、427、431、432、488到602、640、657、670、737、729、747案國民黨黨團提議改交審查"},{"start":8181.004,"end":8190.472,"text":"第194、197、198、202、223、250到252、259、273、284、288、293、304、31、53、18、324、32、53、29、43、144、6、611、617、628、713案台灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀後以上提案經改交相關委員會審查其餘議案經照程序委員會意見通過請問院會有沒有異議"},{"start":8211.192,"end":8213.021,"text":"好 沒有異議 先讀或通過 請先讀"},{"start":8214.332,"end":8223.218,"text":"第194案 內宣部第199案 海洋委員會第200案 科教委員會第20案 大陸委員會第203案 外交部第205案 國防部第207案 經濟部第214案 農業部第217案 國家發展委員會第219案 財政部第222案 金融監督管理委員會第25案 行政局主席總署"},{"start":8243.573,"end":8266.566,"text":"第二任六案之第二任八案交易部第二任九案及第二三零案文化部第二三一案國家科學及技術委員會第二三二案及第二三三案鼓勵故宮博物院第二三四案之第二三八案交通部第二三九案數位發展部第二四零案司法院第二四一案勞動部第二四案環境部第二四三案之第二五零案衛生福利部"},{"start":8266.986,"end":8273.27,"text":"第25議案 經濟部第267案 農業部第302案 公平交易委員會第308案 國家發展委員會第344案 財政部第443案 中央銀行第469案 金融監督管理委員會第488案 交易部第550案 文化部第562案 國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":8295.322,"end":8308.977,"text":"第580案 直提589案 行政院原子能委員會第590案 直提594案 交通部第595案 直提602案 國家通訊傳播委員會第603案 直提616案 防務部第617案 直提620案 詮訊部第621案 直提624案 考選部"},{"start":8312.981,"end":8339.929,"text":"第625案之第696案勞動部第697案之第764案衛生福利部第765案交通部判為112年度相關預算113年度相關預算112年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算等預算權益分別遣送相關報告宣讀完畢報告委員會第766案以下請一併宣讀宣讀後均均準已被查請宣讀"},{"start":8340.748,"end":8368.183,"text":"第766案．本院交通委員會函．約會交付處理行政院公共工程委員會．一版審年度中央政府總預算十一等案．與處理完據第767案．第768案．本院社會福利及衛生環境交通委員會函．約會交付審查相關行政命令．均已與立法院職權行使法第60條所定審查期限第769案．第771案．行政委員喊送本院政務委員江華．遊務委員月蘭等所提臨時提案之嚴處盡行"},{"start":8369.664,"end":8394.046,"text":"諮詢事項．行政院答覆部分．行政院函送本院由委員預覽等．所聽諮詢之書面答覆共19件．以本院委員諮詢部分．本院理委員等為等．向行政院提出諮詢共2件．宣讀完畢報告委員會在進行討論事項之前先處理變更議程之提議並截止所案我們依提案先入順序處理現在處理"},{"start":8396.843,"end":8415.971,"text":"民進黨黨團提議變更疫情公益案其中有納入原住民身份法修正草案為第13案另外國民黨黨團也有相同提議將原住民身份法修正草案納入兩次會議討論事項我們就一併處理並列入公報記錄請議事人員一併先讀兩黨黨團提議之內容"},{"start":8423.581,"end":8449.838,"text":"本院民進黨黨團．針對第10屆第8會期第12次會議．討論事項（離情變更僅限列如下表16案．是否有當敬請公決本院國民黨黨團．針對本地12次會議．建議增列討論事項供應案．如下附表．順序授權議事處依序排列．是否有當敬請公決宣讀完畢請問委員會．對民進黨黨團．及國民黨黨團．變更議程有沒有意義"},{"start":8450.925,"end":8473.394,"text":"好沒有異議那提議均照案通過報告委員會院會方才通過討論事項總數及順序已定因此其他黨團便跟議程列入編制會議討論事項之提議就不再處理列入公報記錄報告委員會便跟議程提議經理處理完畢現在進行討論事項第一案"},{"start":8480.256,"end":8499.884,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案本案今﹐第8會期第11次會議決議﹐併案請由院長召集協商﹐協商後再請處理報告委員會本案亦已完成協商﹐是協商結論簽名後提出本次會議處理"},{"start":8504.107,"end":8507.533,"text":"討論事項第二案運動產力發展條例增訂第24條11條文草案等案請先讀審查報告"},{"start":8516.564,"end":8537.795,"text":"本院教育及文化委員會於112年10月6日正開全體委員會議並案審查本案會中邀請提案委員說明提案指趣就業部部長潘文忠及相關人員列席報告並備諮詢會議由范兆桀委員擔任主席與會員於聽取說明基訊等後進行逐條討論完成本案審查令通過附帶決議影像"},{"start":8539.116,"end":8565.877,"text":"本案審查完畢並按理據審查報告提請委員會公決約會討論前不須交由黨團協商約會討論時由范兆傑委員予補充說明宣禮完畢請昭紀委員、范委員予補充說明沒有補充說明本案今審查會決議不須再交由黨團協商請問會有沒有異議沒有異議本案今依審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論"},{"start":8568.575,"end":8569.677,"text":"運動產業發展條例請宣讀增訂第24條之一"},{"start":8575.083,"end":8603.306,"text":"第24條之一政府應致力於保障民眾觀賞運動賽事或活動之權益確保運動賽事或活動票券正常流通將公開販售之運動賽事或活動票券以超過票面金額或將該運動賽事或活動無票面金額票券定價販售者按票券章數由主管機關處每張票面金額或無票面金額票券區域對照所應販售票面金額之10倍至50倍罰還"},{"start":8605.167,"end":8629.421,"text":"將全面或部分免費入場制運動賽事或活動免費票券定價販售者按票券章數由主管機關儲每張票券新台幣18,000元向罰款此虛偽資料或其他補充方式利用電腦或其他相關設備購買運動賽事或活動票券取得定票或取票憑證者儲三領銷有期圖形或跟或併加新台幣300萬元向罰金"},{"start":8630.922,"end":8660.083,"text":"主管機關為調查或取締前二項違規事實﹐得洽請警察機關配員協助﹐主管機關對於檢取查獲第二項﹐第三項規定之行為﹐除應對檢取人身份資料嚴守秘密外﹐並得准予獎勵﹐對於檢取人身份資料時保密﹐與送送程序異同前項主管機關受理檢取案件之管轄﹐處理期間保密﹐檢取人獎勵及其他應遵行事﹐向這辦法由主管機關定之﹐由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":8662.418,"end":8673.087,"text":"好 照審查會條文通過全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有沒有異議好 沒有異議請先讀經過二讀之條文"},{"start":8675.031,"end":8695.425,"text":"第24條 政府應致力於保障民眾觀賞運動賽事或活動之權益﹐確保運動賽事或活動票券正常流動﹐將公開販售之運動賽事或活動票券﹐以窗面票面金額或將該運動賽事或活動無票面金額票券定價販售者﹐"},{"start":8695.865,"end":8716.625,"text":"按票券章數由主管金管處每張票面金額或無票面金額票券區域對照所應販售票面金額之10倍至50倍罰還將全面或部分免費入場式、運動賽事或活動免費票券定價販售者按票券章數由主管金管處每張票券新台幣18,000元相罰還"},{"start":8718.607,"end":8742.135,"text":"以虛偽資料或其他不正方式﹐利用電腦或其他相關設備﹐購買運動賽事或活動票券﹐取得訂票或取票憑證者﹐處三點下有期徒刑﹐或看貨幣課金台幣300萬元下罰金主管機關為調查或取締前二項違規事實﹐得洽請警察機關派員協助主管機關對於檢舉查獲第二項﹐第三項規定之行為"},{"start":8743.295,"end":8767.681,"text":"除應對檢舉人身份資料嚴守祕密外﹐並得著於獎勵﹐對於檢舉人身份資料之保密﹐與訴訟程序一同﹐請向主管機關受理檢舉案檢舉管轄﹐處理期間保密﹐檢舉人獎勵及其他應遵行事上之辦法﹐由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢三讀條文已經宣讀完畢﹐請問委員會有沒有文書修正"},{"start":8769.389,"end":8775.971,"text":"沒有文書修正決議運動產業發展條例增訂第24條之一條文修正通過繼續處理審查會所做的附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":8787.773,"end":8812.611,"text":"通過附帶決議一項政府應致力於保障民眾觀賞運動賽事或活動之權益以確保運動賽事或活動票券正常流通將運動賽事或活動票券加計收取行為人自主辦單位取得運動賽事或活動票券而實際支出之合理手續費或郵寄等費用歸屬本條例規範之加價販售裁罰樣態宣讀完畢請問N會有沒有異議"},{"start":8817.95,"end":8826.323,"text":"好沒有異議那決定就照案通過本案完成立法程序後有委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘請吳委員私下發言"},{"start":8841.996,"end":8869.498,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁大家辛苦了運動是新興國力發展體育提振運動產業我們做最多也做最好過去8年政府對運動發展的政策不斷加深加廣加碼全民瘋體育提振了運動賽事的活絡而購票進場看球賽為運動員加油更成了臺灣人的日常尤其年輕世代更是支持運動賽事的主力消費者"},{"start":8870.359,"end":8894.384,"text":"但是黃牛無孔不入,擼起擼大胃,成為所有運動迷的心頭之恨向黃牛宣戰,要對症下藥今天《運動產業發展條例》24條之一完成修訂跟進文創法感謝國會有志一同,跨黨派支持,發揮意識的高效率運產條例的修法,讓打擊黃牛再下一程黃牛注意了"},{"start":8895.604,"end":8914.251,"text":"將運動賽事票券加價販售可裁罰票券金額或定價的10到50倍以不正方式掃票或是電腦大量掃票則除以3年以下的遊戲圖形新台幣300萬以下罰金讓黃牛罰得到也罰得痛事實證明修法確實有效"},{"start":8915.091,"end":8927.067,"text":"文創法的黃牛條款上路之後﹐文化部就收到超過1300件的檢舉案﹐各縣市都有開罰成立的案例﹐4個月的查緝開罰件數﹐高於過去10年的執行總數"},{"start":8931.232,"end":8949.662,"text":"所以查緝黃牛確實立法是有效的作為而查緝黃牛也需要配套例如建立檢舉制度給予吹哨者獎金推動鼓勵但不強制的實名制以及研議建立具有公信力的換票平台都是我們未來努力的目標"},{"start":8950.683,"end":8964.806,"text":"感謝所有同仁來團結屠牛未來如果能夠制定黃牛專法整合跨部會所有的政策工具來查緝黃牛我想我們的努力應當持續下去謝謝大家大家辛苦了好 謝謝吳委員報告委員會登記發言的委員已經發言完畢現在進行討論事項第三案"},{"start":8980.178,"end":9004.758,"text":"營養及健康飲食促進法草案．請宣讀審查報告本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會．分別於112年5月17日．112年4月6日舉行全體委員會議審查本案．會議分別由吳兆景委預請．邱兆景委員太委員擔任主席．邀請提案委員說明提案要旨．並請衛生福利部長薛瑞元．及相關人員練習說明並備諮詢"},{"start":9007.96,"end":9032.249,"text":"與會員與聽取說明集尋答後．進行逐條討論．完成本案審查．令通過附帶決議6項．原請決議並按理區審查報告提報院會討論本委員與院會進行二讀前．不需加入黨團先生．議會討論本案時．由邱召集委員太原補充說明宣讀完畢請召集委員、邱委員、太原補充說明好 沒有補充說明"},{"start":9033.064,"end":9055.069,"text":"貶案竟審查會決議不須再交與黨黨協商請問院會有沒有異議沒有異議貶案竟依審查會意見處理現在進行逐條討論營養及健康飲食促進法草案請宣讀名稱營養及健康飲食促進法宣讀完畢照審查會名稱通過請先讀第一條請先讀第一張第一張總則宣讀完畢"},{"start":9062.649,"end":9076.911,"text":"趙審查會張銘通過 請先讀第一條第一條 為建構健康飲食支持環境提升人民營養及健康飲食真能 增進人民健康特殊利益本法 宣讀外表趙審查會條文通過 請先讀第二條"},{"start":9077.642,"end":9104.995,"text":"第二條本法用詞定義如下一、營養指人體利用食物中所含之營養成分進行新陳代謝調節生理機能及生成發育過程之一種生理狀態二、營養成分指食物中可作為人體新陳代謝所需熱量促進生長發育及調節生理機能之營養素包括糖類、脂質、蛋白質、維生素、礦物質及其他微量元素"},{"start":9105.735,"end":9126.153,"text":"三、營養不良,指不健康飲食所造成人體中之營養素缺乏﹐過多或不均衡,至體重過精或過重﹐肥胖、慢性病或其他健康問題之狀態四、健康飲食,指足以提供個人適當熱量及均衡營養﹐且以新鮮在地、多樣化之食材為原則之飲食"},{"start":9126.733,"end":9155.954,"text":"五、營養及飲食調查指以各種調查方法收集分析人民飲食變遷營養狀況及其他相關資料作為定定人民營養需求基準及相關政策之依據六、營養及飲食建議攝取基準指依據營養調查或相關研究國民健康政策、人民飲食習慣性別、年齡、體重及其他相關因素以科學實證方法所定一般人民飲食及營養素攝取量之基準"},{"start":9156.534,"end":9176.429,"text":"宣讀完畢照實在位條文通過請宣讀第三條第三條本法所限主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在主銷市為主銷市政府在縣市為縣市政府本法所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關主持者由各目的事業主管機關辦理宣讀完畢照實在位條文通過請宣讀第四條"},{"start":9177.298,"end":9200.038,"text":"第4條 中央主管機關整理相應營養及健康食促進事項一、政策與方案之規劃訂定及宣導二、直轄市縣市主管機關執行之助導及協調三、講座及輔導之規劃四、人員訓練之規劃及推動五、國際交流合作六、其他應由中央主管機關辦理之事項宣讀完畢造實召會條文通過 請先入第5條"},{"start":9200.919,"end":9229.028,"text":"第5條 指挾市縣市主管機關整理向內項列營養及健康時促進事項一、實施方案計劃之規劃訂定及執行二、講座與輔導計劃之訂定及執行三、人員訓練之訂定及執行四、教育宣導轉介服務與資源網絡連結之規劃及提供五、其他應用指挾市縣市主管機關辦理之事項宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第6條"},{"start":9230.424,"end":9242.511,"text":"第6條 直轄市縣市主管機關得指定營養相關專業單位或人員與社區協助辦理營養及健康飲食促進之相關工作 宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過 請宣讀第7條"},{"start":9244.622,"end":9265.867,"text":"第7條 中央主管機關應邀集民間團體﹐專家﹐學者﹐食品業者及農產業者代表﹐召開營養諮詢會﹐諮詢營養與健康飲食促進政策﹐調查研究及其他有關事項﹐其中任一性別委員之人數不得少於總數三分之一﹐中央主管機關應採行適當公民參與機制廣詢意見﹐納入營養諮詢會議討論宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過﹐請先入第8條"},{"start":9272.793,"end":9290.501,"text":"第8條 主管機關及各目的事業主管機關應逐年編列預算 辦理有關營養及健康食肆促進及衛教宣導工作 宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過 請先讀第二章第二章 確保飲食健康 宣讀完畢照審查會帳名通過 請先讀第9條"},{"start":9293.991,"end":9306.045,"text":"第9條 中央主管機關應定期辦理及發布營養調查研究及建置食品營養成分資料庫﹐並得委託有關機關購學校或營養健康相關專業團體為之宣讀完畢照審栽培條文通過請先讀第10條"},{"start":9316.007,"end":9339.417,"text":"第10條 中央主管機關應分別依性別、年齡、懷孕及生產等﹐擬定人民健康及飲食建議攝取基準﹐經諮詢營養諮詢會後公告之﹐其項基準至少每5年檢討修正一次﹐中央主管機關應依第一項之基準﹐並考量人民宗教信仰區域及文化之差異﹐提出飲食建議宣讀完畢照實範圍條文通過異議"},{"start":9343.513,"end":9354.352,"text":"委員吳亦群等委員林淑溫等分配提案第12條委員陳敬明等提案第10條委員陳培宇等提案第11條均不予採納請先讀第11條"},{"start":9357.045,"end":9375.654,"text":"議事一條政府機關構與訂定社會救助相關計劃及辦理補助時應將計劃及補助對象之營養問題納入考量改善營養不良俗致致體重過輕過重肥胖慢性病或其他健康問題及提升健康飲食獲取之可慶幸"},{"start":9376.454,"end":9403.129,"text":"政府機關構因鼓勵辦理食物及膚質法人﹐團體或民間機構與目擊運用食物及膚物資﹐或辦理其他救助計畫時﹐將受針對像是營養問題納入考量政府機關構得考量偏遠﹐原住民族地區及離島地區之需要﹐滴滴營養改善計畫或飲食供應之補助計畫宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員舒喬會等提案第13條"},{"start":9404.229,"end":9433.252,"text":"第14條均不予承納請先讀第12條第12條中央主管機關依第9條之營養調查研究結果發現人民缺乏特定營養素而有營養不良之餘時得提出營養強化建議鼓勵食品業者於食品中添加特定營養成分食品業者依前項建議於食品中添加特定營養成分應符合食品安全衛生管理法及其相關法規適規定宣讀完畢"},{"start":9433.925,"end":9454.375,"text":"照審查會條文通過請宣讀第三章第三章健康飲食支持環境宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過委員吳益勤等委員林淑溫等分別提案第15條臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第20條委員素喬惠等提案第16條委員邱泰文等提案第13條委員莊進成等提案第18條均不予採納請先讀第13條"},{"start":9464.417,"end":9490.624,"text":"第13條政府機關購於福島食品業者開發產制食品及自備飲食時應納入營養師考量生產以在地農產品為主原料之食品及有益於人民之健康飲食宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過委員蘇喬惠等提案第16條至第22條委員邱太元等提案第17條第18條均不予採納請先讀第14條"},{"start":9494.54,"end":9517.455,"text":"第14條 中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應推行並鼓勵營養及健康飲食教育﹐納入下列人員之在職訓練或繼續教育課程一、從事相關工作持醫事人員二、公共衛生師三、長期照顧服務人員四、通獄人員、早期療癒教保人員及早期療癒助理教保人員"},{"start":9518.335,"end":9521.579,"text":"5.健保服務人員及客戶照顧服務人員6."},{"start":9521.579,"end":9525.244,"text":"食品業者專門職業或技術證照人員7."},{"start":9525.244,"end":9530.811,"text":"其他經營中央主管機關公告職人員宣布完畢照審查會條文通過即先入第16條"},{"start":9532.028,"end":9550.659,"text":"第15條政府機關購、行政法人、公立各級、學校與幼兒園、軍隊、公營事業機構及政府捐助之財團法人﹐辦理之活動或會議、採購利民或其他物品及製作宣導品﹐應納入健康飲食之考量宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過﹐請先入第16條"},{"start":9551.67,"end":9573.78,"text":"第16條 主管機關得角力政府機關構、醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構、長期照顧服務機構、學校幼兒園托育機構、軍隊、凡人及團體建構健康飲食環境請向角力之對象條件、方式、申請程序、審查及其他相關事項指辦法由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過 請宣讀第10條"},{"start":9575.25,"end":9586.104,"text":"第17條父母監護人或其他實質照護兒童及少年之人應提供符合兒童及少年營養需求之飲食宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第18條"},{"start":9588.663,"end":9604.777,"text":"第18條 幼兒園及高級中等校學校公售飲品及點心應依幼兒教育及照顧法、學校衛生法及其相關法令之公售原則或範圍辦理宣讀完畢照此召會條文通過臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第19條委員蘇喬惠等提案第15條委員陳培宇等提案第14條均不予採納請先讀第4章"},{"start":9614.349,"end":9622.883,"text":"第4章營養及健康飲食教育宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過委員書條會等提案第24條第25條委員陳培宇等提案第21條均不予採納請先讀第19條"},{"start":9629.485,"end":9643.132,"text":"第19條政府機關構行政法人公立各級學校與幼兒園軍隊供應事業機構及政府捐助之財團法人因鼓勵員工接受營養及健康飲食教育宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第20條"},{"start":9645.287,"end":9666.467,"text":"第20條主管機關與各級目的事業主管機關應鼓勵政府機關構、醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構、長期照顧服務機構、學校幼兒園托育機構、軍隊、法人及團體﹐對其員工辦理營養及健康飲食教育﹐並得開放人民參與宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請申請第21條"},{"start":9668.291,"end":9692.492,"text":"第21條 主管機關應鼓勵醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構對其服務對象及其家屬、社區居民進行營養及健康飲食教育宣讀完畢照實他會條文通過委員吳益勤等委員林淑芬等分別提案第25條委員淳培宇等提案第28條均不予採納請先讀第22條"},{"start":9696.605,"end":9722,"text":"22.中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應將營養及健康飲食教育﹐列入下列政府機關構、學校幼兒園﹐民間機構或法人制輔導項目一、從事相關工作室醫事機構﹐二、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構﹐三、托育機構、早期療癒機構﹐安置及救養機構、矯正機關﹐與其他依法設立之收容、安置及救養機構或場所"},{"start":9724.163,"end":9728.556,"text":"4.各級學校及幼兒園 宣讀MB照審查為條文通過 請先讀第23條"},{"start":9731.54,"end":9757.393,"text":"23.任何人不得利用廣告或其他方法﹐傳播不實質、營養及健康飲食消息﹐且向所身利用廣告或其他方法傳播﹐至利用電視、廣播、影片、幻燈片﹐報紙、雜誌、傳單、海報﹐招牌、牌坊、電腦﹐電話、傳真、電子視訊﹐電子語音、網際網路或其他方法﹐使不特定多數人窒息其宣傳內容者"},{"start":9757.987,"end":9786.053,"text":"宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請先讀第5章第5章罰則宣讀完畢照審查會章文通過請先讀第24條第24條違反截條第一項規定傳播不實質營養或健康食消息有影響人民健康之餘者直轄市縣市主管機關應令其限期改正藉其為改正者處新台幣3萬元以上30萬元下罰還並得按次處罰至改正為止宣讀完畢"},{"start":9786.792,"end":9806.729,"text":"照審查會條文通過委員劉建國等委員林維周等委員楊瓊穎等分別提案第24條委員吳益勤等委員林淑芬等分別提案第28條台灣民眾黨黨團提議提案第27條委員邱太元等提案第22條"},{"start":9807.95,"end":9835.513,"text":"委員陳敬明等提案第25條委員蘇巧慧等提案第30條委員劉建國等委員林維作等分別提案第25條委員陳敬明等提案第26條今不宜採納請先讀第6章第6章負責宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過請先讀第25條第25條本法事行細則由中央主管機關定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":9837.017,"end":9846.967,"text":"照審查會條文通過請先讀第26條第26條本法自公布日施行宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過全案禁錮二讀現有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有沒有異議好沒有異議那請先讀禁錮二讀之條文"},{"start":9856.777,"end":9869.945,"text":"《營養及健康飲食促進法》第一章 總則第一條為建構健康飲食支持環境提升人民營養及健康飲食職能增進人民健康特制定本法"},{"start":9872.028,"end":9891.167,"text":"第二條本法用詞定義如下一、營養指人體利用食物中所含之營養成分進行新陳代謝調節生理機能及生長發育過程之一種生理狀態二、營養成分指食物中可作為人體新陳代謝所需熱量"},{"start":9891.667,"end":9908.578,"text":"促進生長、發育及調節生理機能之營養素包括糖類、脂質、蛋白質、維生素、礦物質及其他微量元素3、營養不良指不健康飲食所造成人體中之營養素缺乏、過多或不均衡指體重"},{"start":9911.32,"end":9923.769,"text":"1、過輕或過重、肥胖、慢性病或其他健康問題之狀態2、健康飲食只足以提供個人適當熱量及均衡營養且以新鮮在地多樣化之食材為原則之飲食"},{"start":9924.75,"end":9941.172,"text":"五、營養及飲食調查指以各種調查方法搜集、分析人民飲食變遷、營養狀況及其他相關資料作為訂定人民營養需求基準及相關政策之依據六、營養及飲食建議順序基準"},{"start":9942.213,"end":9969.85,"text":"只依據營養調查或相關研究﹐國民健康政策﹐人民飲食習慣﹐性別﹐年齡﹐體重及其他相關因素﹐以科學執政方法所定﹐一般人民飲食及營養素攝取量之基準第三條本法所審主管機關在中央委衛生福利部﹐在執行室為執行室政府﹐在縣市為縣市政府本法所定事項﹐涉及各目的事業主管機關執行者﹐由各目的事業主管機關辦理"},{"start":9971.894,"end":9993.891,"text":"第4條 中央主管機關 掌理 下令營養及健康食促進事項一、政策與方案之規劃訂定及宣導二、直轄市縣市主管機關執行之督導及協調三、講助及輔導之規劃四、人員訓練之規劃及推動五、國際交流合作六、其他應由中央主管機關辦理之事項"},{"start":9996.061,"end":10020.612,"text":"第5條指橋市縣市主管機關整理、狹內下列營養及健康飲食促進事項一、實施方案計畫之規劃訂定及執行二、講助與輔導計畫之訂定及執行三、人員訓練之訂定及執行四、教育宣導轉介服務與資源網絡連結之規劃及提供五、其他應由指橋市縣市主管機關辦理之事項"},{"start":10025.108,"end":10036.398,"text":"6.直轄市縣市主管機關﹐得指定營養相關專業單位或人員﹐與社區協助管理營養及健康飲食促進之相關工作7."},{"start":10036.398,"end":10049.129,"text":"中央主管機關應邀請民間團體﹐專家、學者、食品業者及農產業者代表﹐召開營養諮詢會﹐諮詢營養及健康飲食促進政策﹐調查研究及其他有關事項﹐"},{"start":10049.87,"end":10079.338,"text":"其中任一性別委員之人數不得少於總數三分之一中央主管機關應採行適當公民參與機制 廣詢意見納入營養諮詢會議討論第8條主管機關及各目的事業主管機關應逐年編列預算辦理有關營養及健康飲食之促進及衛教宣導工作第二章確保健康飲食"},{"start":10081.178,"end":10106.146,"text":"第9條 中央主管機關應定其辦理及發布營養調查研究及建置食品營養成分資料庫﹐並等委託有關機關構、學校或營養健康相關專業團體為之第10條 中央主管機關應分別依性別、年齡、懷孕及生產等﹐擬定人民營養及飲食建議攝取基準﹐經諮詢營養諮詢會後公告之"},{"start":10110.805,"end":10120.432,"text":"前項基準至少每5年檢討一次中央主管機關應依第一項之基準並考量人民宗教信仰區域及文化之差異提出飲食建議"},{"start":10123.123,"end":10140.615,"text":"第11條政府機關構於訂定社會救助相關計劃及辦理補助時應將計劃及補助對象之營養問題納入考量改善營養不良所致之體重過輕過重肥胖慢性病或其他健康問題及提升健康飲食獲取之可敬性"},{"start":10141.235,"end":10161.931,"text":"政府機關構應鼓勵辦理食物給付之法人、團體或民間機構於募集運用食物給付物資或辦理其他救助計畫時將受贈對象之營養問題納入考量政府機關構得考量偏遠原住民族地區及離島地區之需要訂定營養改善計畫或飲食供應之補助計畫"},{"start":10164.673,"end":10188.606,"text":"第12條中央主管機關一第9條是營養調查研究結果發現人民缺乏特定營養素而有營養不良之餘時得提出營養強化建議鼓勵食品業者於食品中添加特定營養成分食品業者依前項建議於食品中添加特定營養成分應符合食品安全衛生管理法及其相關法規之規定"},{"start":10191.874,"end":10210.923,"text":"第3章 健康飲食支持環境第13條 政府儘管購與輔導食品業者開發產制食品及自備飲食時﹐應納入營養正好量﹐生產以在地農產品為主原料之食品﹐及有益於人民之健康飲食"},{"start":10213.157,"end":10240.095,"text":"第14條中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應推行並鼓勵營養及健康飲食教育納入下列人員之在職訓練或繼續教育課程一、從事相關工作之醫事人員二、公共衛生師三、長期照顧服務人員四、通獄人員、早期療癒教保人員及早期療癒助理教保人員五、教保服務人員及課後照顧服務人員六、食品業者專門職業或技術證照人員"},{"start":10243.457,"end":10264.247,"text":"其其他經中央主管機關公共之人員第15條政府機關購行政法人公立各級學校與幼兒園軍隊公營事業機構及政府捐助之產權法人辦理之活動或會議採購利民或其他物品及製作宣導品應納入健康飲食之考量"},{"start":10266.277,"end":10286.275,"text":"第16條 主管機關得獎勵政府機關構﹐醫療機構﹐護理機構﹐社會福利機構﹐長期照顧服務機構﹐學校幼兒園托育機構﹐軍隊法人及團體﹐建構健康飲食環境前項獎勵之對象﹐條件方式﹐申請程序﹐審查及其他相關事項之本﹐法由中央主管機關定之"},{"start":10287.916,"end":10315.698,"text":"第17條父母接戶人或其他實際照顧兒童及少年之人應提供符合兒童及少年營養需求之飲食第18條幼兒園及高級中等下學校供受飲品及點心應依幼兒教育及照顧法學校衛生法及其相關法令之供受原則或範圍辦理第4章營養及健康飲食教育"},{"start":10318.277,"end":10329.802,"text":"第19條政府機關構行政法人公立各級學校與幼兒園軍隊公營事業機構及政府捐助資產權法人應鼓勵員工接受營養及健康飲食教育"},{"start":10331.96,"end":10341.211,"text":"第20條主管機關與各級目的事業主管機關應鼓勵政府機關構、醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構、長期照顧服務機構、學校幼兒園托育機構、軍隊旁人及團體對其員工辦理營養及健康飲食教育,並得開放人民參與"},{"start":10352.352,"end":10365.435,"text":"第21條主管機關應鼓勵醫療機構、護理機構、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構﹐對其服務對象及其家屬、社區居民進行營養及健康飲食教育"},{"start":10367.54,"end":10394.971,"text":"第22條中央主管機關與中央目的事業主管機關應將營養及健康飲食教育列入下列政府機關構學校幼兒園民間機構或法人之輔導項目一、從事相關工作之醫事機構二、社會福利機構及長期照顧服務機構三、托育機構、早期療癒機構安置及教養機構、矯正機關與其他依法設立之收容安置及救養機構或場所"},{"start":10396.532,"end":10397.839,"text":"是各級學校及幼兒園"},{"start":10402.535,"end":10428.216,"text":"23.任何人不能利用廣告或其他方法﹐傳播不實質、營養及健康飲食消息﹐其向所伸利用廣告或其他方法傳播﹐只利用電視、廣播、影片、幻燈片﹐報紙、雜誌、傳單、海報﹐招牌、牌坊、電腦、電話傳真﹐電子視訊、電子語音﹐網際網路或其他方法﹐使不特定多數人知悉其宣導內容者"},{"start":10431.075,"end":10450.808,"text":"第5章 法則 第24條違反前條第一項規定傳播或實施營養或健康飲食消息﹐有影響人民健康治癒者﹐直轄市縣市主管機關應令其限期改正﹐藉其為改正者﹐處新台幣3萬元上30萬元下滑還﹐並得按次處罰至改正為止"},{"start":10453.188,"end":10479.677,"text":"第6章負責第25條本法施行卸財由中央主管機關定制第26條本法自公佈日施行宣讀完畢三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有沒有文書修正沒有文書修正那決議營養及"},{"start":10481.963,"end":10493.736,"text":"《健康飲食促進法》自定通過繼續處理審查會所作的附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":10496.906,"end":10524.825,"text":"通過附帶決議六項一、本法通過後行政機關應積極提供相關計畫具體鼓勵基層醫療診所參與民眾的營養及健康飲食教育依符合羅馬營養宣言中的建議並落實全能醫療照顧的精神二、為應應全球氣候變遷政府機關鼓勵相關業者善盡共同保護地球環境之責任政府機關構議本法第12條輔導食品"},{"start":10527.955,"end":10556.692,"text":"餐飲業者開發產製食品及自備飲食時應考量以符合環境永續與動物福利有益於人民之健康飲食三、中央主管機關依本法第9條提出飲食建議時應考量飲食對環境影響結合均衡健康飲食之概念以其推廣全民對友善環境飲食之共識以達環境永續之目的"},{"start":10557.452,"end":10579.377,"text":"四、國人多有外食之習慣．而部分外食食物精緻及烹調方式．亦攝取過多熱量．皆為肥胖防治之不利因素．建請主管機關鼓勵餐飲業者．主動標示各類餐飲之營養成分．以作為消費者挑選健康餐飲之參考五、"},{"start":10580.057,"end":10593.689,"text":"要求主管機關與各目的事業主管機關與本法施行後持續鼓勵、輔導、提供教育資源及相關規劃以協助增進與建構健康支持性環境6"},{"start":10596.161,"end":10620.475,"text":"要求中央主管機關依《營養及健康飲食促進法》第七條第一項要及民間團體或依同條第二項採行適當公民參與及致廣詢意見時應要及兒少代表或徵詢兒少代表之意見宣讀完畢請問會有沒有異議好 沒有異議 那決定就照案通過"},{"start":10623.769,"end":10644.794,"text":"報告委員會討論事項第三案編法條次及條文所引用之條次授權議事延年處理編案完成立法程序後由委員登記發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘請吳委員疫情發言"},{"start":10655.296,"end":10681.652,"text":"首先謝謝我們游院長能夠在今天能夠讓營養及健康營養促進法能夠三讀通過這是營養界已經期待40年倡議的40年的一個法今天能夠三讀通過真的非常的高興那也期望透過這次立法能夠建構健康飲食的支持環境來提升人民這個營養及健康飲食的智能"},{"start":10682.092,"end":10709.941,"text":"以及增進我們人民的健康那依據國建署的2017年到2020年的一個國民營養健康調查顯示20歲到64歲的民眾4個人裡面就有一個罹患代謝症候群代謝症候群被認為是以腦血管還有心臟病高血壓等慢性病的病發密切相關因此可以透過強化營養的觀念建構"},{"start":10710.701,"end":10712.242,"text":"本院財政委員會函送外交及國防委員會審查報告"},{"start":10735.495,"end":10754.287,"text":"因逐年編列預算 辦理有關營養及健康促進的一個還有衛教的一個工作第三個是衛福部過去常規執行的營養調查研究及建置食品的營養成分的資料庫也因明文入法那也希望能夠要求它定期發布"},{"start":10755.806,"end":10779.493,"text":"最後我要特別謝謝這個邱太元召委的排審能夠讓這一次這個期待已久的法案能夠通過那我要特別謝謝這兩屆以來持續提供我建議的營養師公會全聯會以及黃清真教授以及潘文凡教授能夠提供協助那也盼立法之後我們公司協力讓我們共同逐步建立更好的營養環境"},{"start":10783.36,"end":10799.49,"text":"好 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跟委員報告在主辦國它在會場上面它分為藍區跟綠區最主要藍區是"},{"start":95.993,"end":110.927,"text":"需要有這個大費許可的報名的證件才能進去那立區它通常就會開放給沒有持有這個報名證件但是可以當地這個去登記啦或者是這樣子一個方式去進去參觀"},{"start":112.793,"end":130.93,"text":"好 那個署長你接下來可不可以回答一下為什麼因為我剛剛有提到但是你在附送回答的時候沒有特別再提因為我剛剛有強調就是說綠區在官方文宣上就是有要開放給原住民團體"},{"start":132.772,"end":144.362,"text":"因為我是原住民的立法委員所以我會特別關注這個部分那我想請教署長你可不可以回答就是以你的理解為什麼要特別針對原住民團體來開放呢"},{"start":147.06,"end":159.588,"text":"這個部分的話我沒有特別去了解說但是因為在藍區事實上也有周邊會議我沒有要關心藍區的部分我在這邊要跟你討論綠區特別開放給原住民團體這個部分"},{"start":162.99,"end":191,"text":"我想因為其實氣候公約他非常重視就是跟原住民還有跟這個相關的團體的一些對話跟溝通所以主辦國他或許有這個規劃但這個部分確實我沒有因為我今年沒有到現場去參加我想這個有沒有到現場應該是沒有關係那我覺得其實在整個氣候變遷下是這樣子如果署長不清楚也沒關係"},{"start":192.02,"end":211.906,"text":"那我今天把這樣的觀念特別在這邊跟署長讓署長了解一下那也在座的各位也要特別的注意一下就是一個很重要的原因在氣候變遷下最先衝擊的族群任何國家的政府其實都很清楚的就是"},{"start":212.626,"end":239.301,"text":"大自然環境最密切的族群其實就是原住民族我們因為在這個環境迫害之下整個原住民族的生存權、發展權甚至這個土地自然資源的權利都是被嚴重傷害的所以這個部分特別在這邊提出來讓署長瞭解因為"},{"start":240.495,"end":263.169,"text":"您坐在一個非常重要的位置就是氣候變遷署你是署長所以這一點我希望從現在開始可以特別注意因為未來這個部分到時候我想時間再久一點你會更清楚知道原住民在這整個氣候變遷的一個扮演的角色"},{"start":263.749,"end":264.251,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":272.368,"end":295.138,"text":"在這個1992年的巴西里約召開的這個里約環境跟發展宣言宣言的部分全部27項有規範各國政府環境權利與責任的基本原則其中的第22項揭示了原住民族的傳統習慣與智慧在環境的永續發展上扮演關鍵的角色因此在各國的政府"},{"start":295.558,"end":317.434,"text":"都是要肯定並且支持援助民族參與氣候變遷衝擊一下環境的保護、管理跟監測我想這個概念很重要那身為氣候變遷署的署長要請您特別了解這個概念所以我接下來我要請問署長在未來"},{"start":318.635,"end":339.04,"text":"在您帶領的這個氣候變遷署各項措施的計畫是不是應該根據地球憲章的基本原則鼓勵並支持援助民族運用我們的智慧與生活習慣來協助你們落實淨零排碳的工作請問署長你支不支持這樣子的一個方向是完全支持"},{"start":339.42,"end":354.489,"text":"好 謝謝署長那我接下來要請教就是說那我可不可以請署長你們的這個氣候變遷署可以進一步的加以規劃那針對我剛剛提的這些加以規劃可以嗎"},{"start":355.189,"end":365.317,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在今年立法院三讀通過氣候變遷因應法也很清楚的把原住民就是我們在擬定氣候變遷各項政策的時候必須要將原住民的相關的跟氣候變遷不管是在減緩跟調適都要納入好那所以你們開始規劃了嗎我們現在在進行的包括就是國家氣候變遷行動綱領"},{"start":379.168,"end":394.582,"text":"還有接下來再進行調試計畫都會進行都會納入對都會納入那請問就是你有很你有很認真的把這個原住民族的這個部分你怎麼樣已經加入了這樣子的規劃了嗎"},{"start":396.643,"end":418.908,"text":"這個會隨著每一項計畫在實施就是規劃跟提出的期程的時候那我們會開始包括跟原住民主管機關還有相關的團體那包括這個最重要就是我們立法院相關的委員這邊我們都會開始來進行討論因為我也沒有接到你們任何的邀約所以看起來是還沒有開始"},{"start":420.462,"end":445.727,"text":"對 就跟委員報告沒有關係那我剛剛講這個規劃你需要多少時間來規劃我們現在因為正在規劃是下一期的國家氣候變遷的就是階段管制目標還有這個行政計畫這個部分我們會把它納入那另外的話就是在進行這個氣候變遷調適的相關的作業這個是明年會開始啟動那這部分我們也會進行"},{"start":446.707,"end":460.658,"text":"明年開始啟動那等一下那所以我再問你你還是沒有回答我問題你需要多少時間來規劃好原住民相關的這個特別是原住民相關的這個部分你需要多少時間規劃那跟我們報告我們在至少三個月內我們先就這些計劃跟擬定的時候那需要進行跟這個溝通的一些原則我們先請問你這三個月要跟誰溝通我們先跟這個先擬法我們先盤點"},{"start":475.649,"end":478.081,"text":"依照《氣候變遷因應法》需要進行推動我剛剛說明的"},{"start":480.396,"end":508.197,"text":"這些方案、計畫或者是措施先做一個盤點然後接下來就是需要跟原住民相關團體的這個進行跟進行方式我們來進行討論那剛剛你有特別點名到就是要跟各位原住民的這個立法委員來溝通那我也想要請教你是要跟這一屆的立委溝通還是跟下一屆的原住民立委溝通我跟委員報告我們現在是三個月我們先進行要先盤點有哪一些事項"},{"start":509.057,"end":535.354,"text":"有一些方案措施那需要來提的我們先三個月內先盤點出來那接下來才進一步去提說需要溝通的對象那所以所以你後面才要盤點溝通的對象所以你又說你要先跟原住民的立法委員溝通我真的是有點聽不太懂就是說你的意思是其實剩下這個時間你也沒有要跟我們溝通的意思"},{"start":536.174,"end":560.322,"text":"我想這個都是持續都會再溝通那我們現在因為剛剛委員關心我們氣候法裡面因為會包括的就是減緩跟調適的這些方案跟計劃那我們先盤點出來有哪一些到底接下來有哪一些所以你說三個月就是很明顯其實這一屆的原住民立委你是根本不需要溝通的因為我們的任期就到1月"},{"start":562.603,"end":581.066,"text":"還沒有你的三個月我們裡面的成員可能不一定是一樣但是我很清楚告訴你我會繼續在這邊其實我們在這段期間內也是一直有跟委員包括我們在進行氣候法的修法當時的在訂定的時候也都持續有在做溝通"},{"start":582.574,"end":606.643,"text":"我是沒有太強烈的感覺就是因為我很擔心你溝通的對象不對了啦好那至少我剛剛點出了原住民的這一塊看起來署長從第一個回答並沒有很有概念所以我在這邊我鼓勵你好好去研究一下好那再不然"},{"start":607.748,"end":636.229,"text":"我們即便現在在忙選舉但是我想我們的任期在這邊這個坐一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛辦公室還是都有在運作啊是我們會積極的對啊你總不會等說要確認我在這個我們1月13號確定我有選上之後才要趕快來溝通才要開始慢慢規劃吧是跟我們這段期間其實一直都有跟各個委員在做溝通是有嗎"},{"start":638.649,"end":661.499,"text":"我們辦公室有嗎這個我們會改善有嗎對啊你不要亂講話啊就是各個委員我們辦公室就是沒有所以我今天特別提出來所以要請署長特別注意嘛對啊那你要三個月我很擔心啊那你如果要溝通其實你從現在就可以常常來溝通啊我吧台都開著是謝謝"},{"start":662.379,"end":683.812,"text":"對啊所以我最後再請教一下世界銀行去年指出全球已經有68個國家或區域區域已經有這個碳定價了那今年會有多少國家有定價這個都是要依照那個世界銀行跟各國去做的這個趨勢那在今年初的報告是73個國家或地區"},{"start":685.509,"end":707.423,"text":"今年會有73個國家跟地區我想是這樣我們台灣的這個碳交易平台的相關法則不知道現在是進度怎麼樣那是不是有如你們的預期那我比較好奇的就是說你什麼時候來完成訂定這樣子"},{"start":708.824,"end":724.309,"text":"我們現在的時程是預計就是在最近會先把這個碳費徵收的相關的規劃來做一個預告那明年的話明年1月會開始就是針對費率的部分會進行這個由費率審議會來做討論"},{"start":726.482,"end":751.145,"text":"那所以什麼時候完成你有預估的時間嗎我們現在很清楚就是明年的碳排放都會被計到這個碳費徵收的範圍也就是說明年開始這個碳費徵收就會上路那你打算一頓大概訂多少錢這個要由明年的碳費的費率審議會來做討論跟決定好所以那個我剛剛前面問的就是說你預估何時完成訂定目前你們是"},{"start":752.165,"end":777.687,"text":"沒有竊竊預期的時間會在明年的第一季把包括這是碳費的徵收辦法還有費率審議會這個這個費率的部分來做明年第一季大概就會做確定好那這樣子我我只是提醒我們這個各國的經驗其實看起來應該都是越早實施好那整個挑戰就會越小所以我在這邊特別提醒署長好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":784.667,"end":785.282,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3c100a9878a076fcca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322165cd330bf6083615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"10:55:45 - 11:11:10","影片長度":"00:15:25","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":925,"end_time":"2023-12-14T11:11:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:55:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（10時55分）謝謝，有請部長及外交部李次長。"],["主席：請部長及次長。"],["薛部長富盛：吳召委好。"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝兩位。剛剛聽到薛部長的報告是以專業、務實及有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國，可是我個人感覺是一個mix picture，然後我覺得是見仁見智，譬如這七年臺灣的碳使用率增加，天然氣也是增加，當然以整個經濟的成長或是從百分比來看的話，不同角度來看這個東西就會有不同的解答。","其實我知道這次外交部有安排一些會議，這裡有一些照片是外交部及立法院安排的，有一些是我私人的會議，譬如在右上方這位Michael Sheren，就是我在FB上面有PO的綠色金融大師，我本來是想在藍區跟他見面，可是因為臨時我們四位立法委員全部都沒辦法進去，所以我就在外面這個公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡，然後把我本來想在藍區跟他討論的事情變成在外面討論。他之前在聯合國開發計畫署（UNDP）擔任永續金融中心的高級顧問，在2016年到2019年期間，他也擔任G20永續金融研究小組的主席，同時他在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國證交所發行他們第一個Green Bond，所以他的經驗非常豐富，他有很多Public-Private Partnership的經驗。","接下來我有一個影片要快速跟大家分享一下。","（播放影片）"],["吳委員欣盈：謝謝。所以我想展示的是，其實臺灣在外交困境當中是非常艱難的，事實上我有被邀請參加兩場Parliamentary Pavilion，就是週一上午的時候跟週二下午的時候，我都有作為與談人，可是最後因為沒有拿到藍區的證件，我也沒有辦法進去，相當地可惜。","之後星期四的時候，我們去COP，但是星期四COP剛好休會，所以我就自己跨了邊界去了阿布達比。我也想跟兩位分享，其實我是被邀請去做與談人，這次有辦法進去，因為我是用民間的名義進去的，這是國際智庫Milken研究院，中間這位是Michael Milken本人，這是第5屆中東及非洲國家召開峰會，關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型，Milken專注在4個主軸：教育、健康、新創企業（entrepreneurship）還有金融的部分。","同時，我要提到，其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候也發現到，阿布達比現在有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積，它是跟中國合作的，這也代表石油國家可以重新再做能源轉型，它本身就有油，同時空間大、太陽多、風也多，要做轉型是非常有利基點的。這也呼應了我覺得臺灣應該要勇敢面對，如果我們真的要變成能源堅韌國家的話，我們其實選擇是不多的，因為我們是一個小島國，也沒有很多的天然資源，不像中東。這次我們私下跟一些歐洲國家的議員交流，像盧森堡，他們覺得他們不支持核能，可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能，對不對？這些國家雖然不支持核能、不簽署這些合約，不代表他們沒有在用核能的電。可是臺灣就是一個鎖國，我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境？我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話，是不務實的。","再來，我想要分享的是我們實際上面對外交的困境。這個是我從CSIS智庫2020年報告後面的截圖，上面列出臺灣撤出聯合國之後現在所有的observing或是full member的membership，裡頭重點也有講到ADB，就是中間第二排的下面，到時候可以提供你們參考。","對我而言，我覺得我們要更務實地面對臺灣的外交困境。世界這麼大，我們常常講我們有13個邦交國，可是事實上這13個邦交國所占的地面面積是全球的0.1%，以全球的國家人口來看，這250萬人是全世界的0.3%人口面積而已，所以臺灣在這個情況之下，我們要站在什麼樣的立場？不只是用政府機關，像這次我們4位委員都沒有辦法進入藍區的場……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長，你也沒辦法進去，對不對？我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的membership？為什麼我突然講到Asian Development Bank，就是亞洲開發銀行呢？接下來我想要分享，我個人的看法是，如果今天臺灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話，我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌，然後我們所有官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺，才能讓我們跟國際接軌，同時能淨零碳排、淨零轉型，我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化。你可以看到，這次像COP有loss and damage fund，這個loss and damage fund裡頭對我而言，其實叫做氣候金融的二軌外交。譬如像氣候金融投資、主權基金等等，這些都是可以互相彼此投資的。譬如這次我有跟我們的邦交國諾魯做交流，對不對？諾魯這個國家還比帛琉更小，我問他們現在淨零的方向是如何、能源用得怎麼樣，他們說他們是用柴油（diesel）為主，島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板，馬上50%就可以走Go Clean。OK！我說：「請問一下你的solar panel誰幫你裝？」他說中國幫他裝的，然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭，是中國幫他做的；那我說：「你不是我們臺灣的邦交國嗎？你是邦交國，為什麼這個案子是給中國做？」他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的。所以我的意思就是說其實透過ADB（亞洲開發銀行），我們臺灣是full membership，我們在這一部分打輸的話，我覺得是相當可惜的。而且我要提到，您看外交部現在這個報告上有講到：有充分發揮外交的效益。我會覺得，也提供你們參考，很多國家像澳洲、西班牙、義大利跟加拿大，他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的，它的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade，我真的覺得這是個非常重要的議題，可以呼應我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰？這樣子的話才不會有像我們的邦交國諾魯這個案子，現在我們有ADB的full membership，反而被中國把這個案子簽走。"],["李次長淳：委員，可以讓我簡單回答一下嗎？ADB的案子是透過招標、有廠商，所以是中國廠商得標，不是中國去協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，我知道。"],["李次長淳：中國廠商為什麼會得標？事實上這邊也講到CABEI，其實中國廠商在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標，它背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼，所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改，只是跟委員補充，臺灣當然會非常積極的運用ADB，我們是以一個full membership的身分來充分發揮，我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ADB的標案，只是在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面，最終是中國的企業得標，ADB是甲方，它來招標，得標的企業是中國，不是中國在協助諾魯。"],["吳委員欣盈：我現在只是跟外交部及我們行政單位講，要作戰的時候，尤其我們這麼多委員出現，應該是要走大門、走正路的，OK！我知道我們臺灣的外交處境是非常有困境的，這次我們這樣子去……"],["李次長淳：委員，我們都希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路。"],["吳委員欣盈：我覺得我很對不起納稅人，我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應，如果真的要做立院外交的話，我們等立法院院長請這些國際人員來就好了，舉例來講，我遇到好幾個這些跟我們吃早飯的人，他們的牌子上都寫「Party Overflow」，那什麼意思？Party不是開Party的Party，Party是一個團體的意思。那些委員告訴我「Party Overflow」是說不能發言的委員才在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯……"],["李次長淳：報告委員，這個情況在COP28以前一直存在，我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力。這次有一些特殊狀況，我相信委員也很清楚。"],["吳委員欣盈：是，所以我的意思是說剛剛那些組織有full membership，我們應該積極的把相關的窗口，不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的，對剛剛那些相關有full member的組織能夠接上對口來發揮真正的功能，對不對？"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後我們比較不是正式會員的一些組織，就要走正的路，像這次這些NPO全部都是先認同一個中國的，對不對？我們用這些證件進去的話，我們也認同一個中國嗎？"],["李次長淳：委員，我們也非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交上來協助一起推動，我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門、走正路，但是對於國際情勢，我們也希望大家一起來配合。"],["吳委員欣盈：當時我在現場的時候，我們要拿之前你們給我們的證件進去的時候，當場就有聯合國的人在現場跟我講，我聽到啦！他就跟你們講說：「You know you betrayed my trust. This is not how was supposed to be. You shouldn't be here」就是你們不應該在這邊。"],["李次長淳：委員也很清楚，您出發前我們有跟您溝通兩次，今年情況比較特殊一點，我相信您也知道特殊的地方在什麼地方。"],["吳委員欣盈：沒有什麼特殊的地方……"],["李次長淳：所以我們大家要一起努力。"],["吳委員欣盈：你們照的方式就是，你們要的話，就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流……"],["李次長淳：當然、當然。"],["吳委員欣盈：否則你會讓所有想幫助我們的人都很難做事情，謝謝你。"],["李次長淳：沒錯。"],["吳委員欣盈：然後，最後，不好意思，我要講最後一頁，就是關於環境部的部分，我之前跟部長追過，就是環境部的十年碳定價路徑圖，因為其實我之前也多次呼籲有關碳費、碳稅、碳抵換交易、碳交換的平臺這四種到底要怎麼樣陸續有配套措施？因為這不只是對產業，還有臺灣碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的，因為很多產業和業界都不瞭解碳權到底要不要買，然後要買多少，未來這個東西能不能成為金融商品，有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制存在。產業轉型需要很多年的時間，不能一次馬上到位，如果整個架構沒有提出來的話，產業很難做一些中長期的規劃，所以我想瞭解你們什麼時候可以提出十年路徑圖？上次我跟部長詢問過，看看次長今天有什麼樣的想法，可以給我承諾嗎？什麼時候可以做出來？"],["施次長文真：跟委員報告，這個部分之前也有委員提到，我們應該可以在3個月內，因為最主要還是要看政府這一端要做的中長期規劃，目前是先以碳價，也就是收碳費為主，我們會依委員的指示在3個月內確實……"],["吳委員欣盈：你的意思是3個月只能做碳費……"],["施次長文真：沒有，3個月內我們會把十年整體的路徑圖提出來跟委員做報告。"],["吳委員欣盈：OK！只要有時間出來，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：不好意思！我釐清一下，薛部長離席的原因是因為他要去做預算討論協商，剛剛是由施次長來代理質詢。","請陳委員瑩發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.957218750000003,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.066593750000003,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.27221875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.28909375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.81596875,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.04221875,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.182218750000004,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.742843750000006,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.07159375,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.28971875,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.85409375,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.99034375000001,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.57221875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.47909375,"end":165.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.22409375,"end":170.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.63284375,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.72096875,"end":175.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":199.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.78034375000001,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.62721875000003,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.85409375,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.76221875000002,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.12471875000003,"end":237.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.10034375000004,"end":261.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.64409375,"end":266.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.56159375000004,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.56409375000004,"end":332.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.11346875000004,"end":360.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.83534375000005,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.33721875000003,"end":389.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.02909375,"end":417.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.53534375000004,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.46721875000003,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.39971875000003,"end":475.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.55159375000005,"end":475.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.56846875,"end":475.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.50284375,"end":503.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.17596875000004,"end":525.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.23159375,"end":535.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.31846875,"end":561.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.79971875,"end":574.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.2703437499999,"end":635.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.71471875,"end":593.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.8728437500001,"end":643.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.4834687499999,"end":641.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.5378437500001,"end":681.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.58846875,"end":645.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEA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picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來臺灣的這個探用使用率增加那"},{"start":49.778,"end":68.622,"text":"自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同的角度看這個東西會有不同的解答我抱著投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說"},{"start":75.134,"end":103.098,"text":"在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭有些照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個"},{"start":103.778,"end":123.635,"text":"公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的這個高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席"},{"start":127.732,"end":147.777,"text":"同時在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond經驗非常豐富他有很多一些Private Public Partnership的一些經驗接下來我有一個影片跟大家快速的分享一下"},{"start":156.493,"end":182.331,"text":"一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽"},{"start":198.038,"end":201.541,"text":"這是在阿布達底的部分可是其他那些都在COP"},{"start":205.009,"end":230.658,"text":"今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpha Ring它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是"},{"start":235.079,"end":257.224,"text":"現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享"},{"start":260.206,"end":275.679,"text":"所以我想展示就是說其實在臺灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一個我也麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion"},{"start":276.71,"end":292.528,"text":"上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會"},{"start":293.289,"end":313.427,"text":"所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人"},{"start":316.09,"end":327.06,"text":"第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融"},{"start":336.759,"end":356.1,"text":"同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到說阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的那這也代表就是說石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型"},{"start":358.522,"end":378.777,"text":"同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國"},{"start":379.758,"end":403.706,"text":"然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電"},{"start":404.246,"end":420.783,"text":"可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William"},{"start":421.776,"end":436.156,"text":"就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的"},{"start":436.496,"end":441.717,"text":"全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作發展基金會及全體合作"},{"start":462.503,"end":489.725,"text":"國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說"},{"start":490.546,"end":507.004,"text":"我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型"},{"start":507.885,"end":534.087,"text":"我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那"},{"start":536.937,"end":557.566,"text":"比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個"},{"start":564.829,"end":579.697,"text":"你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的"},{"start":581.138,"end":603.175,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是full membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考"},{"start":604.036,"end":624.17,"text":"向很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯"},{"start":625.811,"end":628.693,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":644.825,"end":659.097,"text":"中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他有背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改"},{"start":659.797,"end":681.339,"text":"只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業"},{"start":682.981,"end":696.658,"text":"跟外交部跟我們行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們是應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去"},{"start":698.76,"end":719.703,"text":"我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫到Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫到Party Overflow這是什麼意思"},{"start":720.123,"end":739.332,"text":"PARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極地把相關的窗口不管是經濟部、財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些"},{"start":747.996,"end":770.98,"text":"全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的啊我們非常感謝我們立法院在國會外交的協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路"},{"start":771.44,"end":778.067,"text":"當時我在現場的時候我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講我聽到了就跟你們講說you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here"},{"start":790.948,"end":810.436,"text":"委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方所以我們大家要一起努力你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你"},{"start":811.716,"end":815.898,"text":"然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖"},{"start":830.103,"end":841.814,"text":"因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個"},{"start":846.378,"end":866.742,"text":"碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位"},{"start":867.102,"end":881.251,"text":"那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個十年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎什麼時候可以做出來跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個"},{"start":892.58,"end":916.799,"text":"三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示就是在十年內所以你是說只有三個月能做碳費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好再有時間出來謝謝"},{"start":920.722,"end":921.95,"text":"謝謝吳委員下一位陳穎委員"}]}},{"id":"149029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c38970a51ebf59a7c3a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322ee73133325f985115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張育美","委員發言時間":"10:45:31 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28在本月12日落幕，對不對？本次會議六大宣言中，健康議題就占了2項，包括氣候與健康宣言，還有氣候健康資金，象徵著健康在氣候變遷的討論中，從過去的配角，躍升為氣候行動的核心，所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手，建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統，醫療韌性是什麼呢？就是要建立高度醫療韌性的因應對策及醫療衛生系統，為國內今後創造更大的生活福祉，請問部長和次長對嗎？"],["周次長志浩：對。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["張委員育美：請關心綠色醫療。"],["周次長志浩：是。"],["張委員育美：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝張委員。"],["主席（張委員育美代）：下一位請吳欣盈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.73096875,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.84471875,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":22.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.930343750000002,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.81596875,"end":63.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.70034375,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.81971875,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.86971875,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.96159375,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.07284375,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.10159375,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.83034375000001,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.11096875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.73909375,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.81409375,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.97346875000002,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.57221875000002,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.96846875,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.07346875000002,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.30909375000002,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.04721875,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.19471875000002,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.61596875,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.58596875,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.72034375,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.82096875000002,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.14971875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.26346875000002,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.17846875,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.25784375,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.48846875,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.52221875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.03659375,"end":207.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.60159375,"end":229.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.42534375000002,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.56159375000001,"end":258.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.57284375,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.29346875000005,"end":267.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.82034375,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.87159375000005,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.27534375000005,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.47346875,"end":307.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.08846875,"end":312.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.75846875,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":320.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.65596875,"end":322.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.17034375000003,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.41846875000005,"end":330.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.00034375,"end":332.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.99159375000005,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","st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COP28"},{"start":19,"end":39.321,"text":"首度將健康納入討論議程根據世界衛生組織估計由於氣候變遷導致空汙、高溫以及疾病的傳播加劇每年有1.9億人的生命健康安全受到衝擊呼籲各國來加速加強醫療體系的"},{"start":42.864,"end":60.795,"text":"應對資源 資源就是說投入經費本次大會有124個國家簽署氣候與健康宣言政府還有開放銀行、慈善機構等等共同承諾投資投入10億美金來對抗氣候變遷帶來的健康危機"},{"start":63.817,"end":76.169,"text":"其中,全球基金提供3億美元,路克斐勒基金也打算投入1億美元。還有,主辦國阿拉伯聯合大公國和數家慈善機構預計投入7.7億美元,用於因升溫惡化的熱帶疾病。"},{"start":86.94,"end":105.377,"text":"大公國內比較熱嘛所以他要投入這個升溫惡化帶來的熱帶疾病那我們回頭來檢視我們國內這幾年來台灣高溫report記錄隨之而來的熱傷害還有高溫疾病越來越多第一線醫師反映啊"},{"start":106.591,"end":133.446,"text":"氣候變遷導致疾病傳染途徑增加在原本是以前南部盛行的登革熱這個已逐漸到全臺地區而且出現了兩萬個這個病例有史以來最多的病例那臺灣民眾也深受空氣污染威脅我們必須強化公衛體系的資源所以首先請教環境部長"},{"start":136.949,"end":144.764,"text":"在這個明年開增碳費對不對那開增碳費使用在哪方面哪些面向上"},{"start":146.008,"end":169.336,"text":"氣候變遷因應法裏面有如列13項啦我非常支持剛剛張偉英影片裏面有提到事實上利用碳費也來支持整個健康方法的有嗎?我們的有嗎?國內的有支持健康公共衛生體系嗎?呃相關的一個有沒有?對啊這些開增碳費之後有沒有?"},{"start":172.18,"end":188.567,"text":"調適方面的用途是可以但是我們再來仔細研究一下我個人覺得只要碳費其中可以用在跟健康相關的或者利用環境部其他的基金事實上是可以目前沒有對不對"},{"start":190.302,"end":209.088,"text":"公委員報告目前是用於溫室氣體減量還有氣候變遷調適所以沒有公共衛生嘛醫療公共衛生這個碳費沒有放在那邊如果沒有就跟行政院爭取啊就是沒有嘛對不對我們來爭取看看未來有沒有可能把它納入"},{"start":209.699,"end":228.786,"text":"所以就是要爭取因為我覺得我們跟國際離得很遠並沒有把健康這個綠色健康醫療放進去所以碳費沒有放在醫療公共衛生上面所以請跟行政院爭取然後我再提醒本次大會"},{"start":231.155,"end":248.12,"text":"氣候與健康宣言這本次的大會那這個我提醒那另外一個我關心的面向就是醫療產業減碳的議題我們在去年3月公布的臺灣2050年淨零碳排路徑以及策略的總說明"},{"start":249.8,"end":267.309,"text":"中央社會福利及衛生福利部長、外交部、經濟部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財政部、金融監督管理委員"},{"start":270.51,"end":296.605,"text":"今天只有我請衛福部出席對不對只有我邀請你上來所以我要問衛福部那衛福部薛部長有提到說對於淨零碳排更直言說上一次我們問他的時候他說非操之在我的因素太多了你說綠色醫療你衛福部的角色說非操之在我的這個因素太多那站在醫療的綠色醫療關口上衛福部明年度值編列多少你知道嗎2000萬以內1965萬"},{"start":299.346,"end":327.364,"text":"所以這個六五萬的預算辦理什麼減碳教育所以在醫療還沒減碳轉型之前竟然好像代替了教育部在教育做減碳教育你是教育部在做減碳教育轉型所以請問次長在辦理減碳教育後你把一千九百六十萬在辦減碳教育在教育之後"},{"start":329.205,"end":356.077,"text":"醫療產業在近鄰路上能夠得到什麼的協助呢?公委員報告一下齁這裡面的教育其實應該是包含所謂的教育輔導教育什麼?教育以及輔導對啦,就是代替教育部的事情在教育嘛你並沒有爭取來做公共衛生的防治啊也不只是這樣綠色公共衛生也不只是這樣齁我們對於說醫院的時候他應該要怎麼做才對這裡面的檢探教育怎麼做對,這對檢探推廣觀念"},{"start":358.418,"end":386.946,"text":"對他第一個觀念要改變那這樣子他第一個就是第一個他成本降低嘛那第二個的話那他本身的對這個裡面的檢探的確是環境是有貢獻的那第一個就是說這裡面的輔導要讓他知道那尤其是他醫院裡面他哪些地方是他可以著手的那這裡面是基本上是有做一些的盤點的事項那經由我們請人然後到醫院裡面進行這輔導的時候那這方面是可以做一些事情的那當然部長所提到的有很多的地方不見得"},{"start":387.546,"end":415.689,"text":"以下就能夠做得到的地方那當然是包含我們的上下游採購整個涉及到社會產業的這部分層面的部分那這部分的話需要我們另外在後面後續在 跨部會的對另外再需要其他不管還當然也包含跨部會那逐步的往這方面來推動所以我建議衛福部你知道在2030前子呢我們我們有多少預算嗎在在進行攤牌的預算9000億啊所以衛福部應該要去爭取啊做綠色醫療啊"},{"start":417.15,"end":434.94,"text":"對沒有錯那這部分的確是要讓不能不能像部長說的說這個不可非可操之的因素太多不能這樣講應該是我們要主動involve進去啊是循序漸進嘛我們能做的我們趕快先做我們不能做的那跨部會我們一起來看看是怎麼樣逐步的來推動"},{"start":436.161,"end":452.319,"text":"市長我提醒你為什麼因為醫療減碳方式太多了舉個例子我曾舉例子說噴一罐氣喘的噴劑呢這個碳排量大概等於汽車跑300公里做改成粉狀粉狀的話馬上降到4公里"},{"start":453.4,"end":476.742,"text":"馬上這個汽車跑四公里的這個排放量就夠所以呢這個醫療跟藥物的減量其實是非常是大有可為所以我們該花很多時間我們要來重視這個所以這個衛福部環保部呢都是在政策面向要給予醫療院所足夠的誘因誘因就是說告訴他們這樣做能夠帶來大家好"},{"start":477.603,"end":506.035,"text":"對不對要自主管理說對不對一方面讓他知道那一方面如果這部分可以的話那盡量提供他有營往這方面來走那請問你將來這個醫院如何進行探排查探盤查我們會委託或委託相關的團體然後逐漸進去來協助他來做這方面的盤查那這個我知道你有提到這個近鄰探排的指引了對不對但是沒有講到那個時間那個期程吧要多久內"},{"start":507.035,"end":531.5,"text":"我們先了解了之後再做排程因為這剛開始現在要再進行的時候先了解這樣排這個排程比較務實有沒有預計大概多久內有多島家醫院要達到探排查因為呢要不要從醫學中心開始啊等等我們先輔導10家然後看看他裡面的情形10家大概是先從醫學中心開始嘛對不對對從比較大的這個醫院開始所以呢表示我們衛福部"},{"start":536.061,"end":556.964,"text":"有注意到齁那這個COP28在12月落幕嘛對不對12日落幕本次會議六大宣言中健康議題就佔了兩項氣候與健康宣言我講議題啦齁還有氣候健康資金象徵著健康在氣候變化討論中從過去的配角"},{"start":557.805,"end":576.375,"text":"要身為氣候行動的核心所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統醫療韌性是什麼呢就因應對策"},{"start":580.837,"end":593.249,"text":"要建立高度的醫療韌性的對策來建立醫療衛生系統在為我們國內的今後創造更大的生活福祉這樣兩位部長、部長、次長對嗎?對!謝謝!請關心綠色醫療!謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"149028","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149028","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3fd036c7592aeb8bca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a032256ce73f1065489d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:35:30 - 10:45:24","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":594,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:45:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:35:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時35分）謝謝主席，拜託請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["徐委員志榮：部長好。"],["薛部長富盛：許委員好。"],["徐委員志榮：部長跟召委一行，COP28大家辛苦了啦！"],["薛部長富盛：不會、不會，應當的。"],["徐委員志榮：我們剛落幕的COP28，其中今年的會議主題目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的工業革命前的基準，全球平均升溫控制在2度C以內，控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，雖然我們不是會員國，您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到巴黎協定全球盤點的要求了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：目前看起來，事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好，特別是包括這次大會通過的一個決議裡面，再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍，能源效益……"],["徐委員志榮：我大概也有看到您的說明，我們都優於其他國家的9%，我們好像都有百分之二十幾。"],["薛部長富盛：是，當然還能繼續努力。"],["徐委員志榮：所以你說三倍不是什麼問題。一樣的三倍，在報紙裡面，當然不是結論，早上講的就是倡議核能新方向，美陸等20多國呼籲全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍。當然部長您也有回應了，這個標題是說核廢料不解決，核能就是假議題。您講了三個理由……"],["薛部長富盛：還有核能安全……"],["徐委員志榮：其實不是核廢料不解決，是說核廢料不能解決，這是媒體下的標題，您說的三點是什麼？安全……"],["薛部長富盛：是，還有核廢料解決以及全民共識。"],["徐委員志榮：那它又幫你寫錯了，它這個三點理由是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識。"],["薛部長富盛：是，那個可能寫錯了，第二點跟第三點……"],["徐委員志榮：我一直看這個第三點，就是包含在第二點嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員志榮：您講的比較正確，還是要全民的共識，我相信全民應該會有共識，在那個前提之下。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["徐委員志榮：那不禁又讓我想到，我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園？"],["薛部長富盛：跟徐委員報告，2025即使我們沒有談到非核家園，本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠的，因為現在核二、核三到2025年本來也就是要phase out，就是要除役了。"],["徐委員志榮：等於意思是說，到2025年我們核能發電都歸零了？"],["薛部長富盛：大概歸零了，因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了，時間也過了。"],["徐委員志榮：延役呢？"],["薛部長富盛：延役的時間，它有一定的程序，所以也已經過了。"],["徐委員志榮：那重點來了，是不是要經濟部的長官回答？那到時候我們的電夠嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：曾次長要回答嗎？"],["徐委員志榮：本來我們的百分比是天然氣50%、火力30%、綠能20%，早上聽了一下，好像才10%左右，是不是？"],["曾次長文生：哪一個？"],["薛部長富盛：再生能源。"],["曾次長文生：不會，再生能源是今年就超過10%了。"],["徐委員志榮：我們目標是要20%，是不是？"],["曾次長文生：我們到2026年就可以達到20%。"],["徐委員志榮：就可以達到20%？"],["曾次長文生：是的。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣可以完全取代核能發電廠通通停掉嗎？"],["曾次長文生：核能去年8%，今年大概剩5%。它原來的狀況就是核1、2、3大概400億度。"],["徐委員志榮：簡單的講，2025年的12月底，也不是說1月初，簡單講應該講年末啦！2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉，然後臺灣的電力不會不夠。"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，核三的2號機除役的時間是2025年5月，不是年底，是5月就會除役了。"],["徐委員志榮：我是說最慢啦！"],["曾次長文生：好，現在整個供電的狀況，我們的估計都是足夠的，我們現在討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳。"],["徐委員志榮：所以結論是2025年……"],["曾次長文生：供電是穩定的。"],["徐委員志榮：我說年底，你說5月啦！"],["曾次長文生：對。"],["徐委員志榮：5月核三停掉了以後，我們不擔心會缺電？"],["曾次長文生：我們供電是穩定的。"],["徐委員志榮：沒有問題？"],["曾次長文生：是。"],["徐委員志榮：國人民生用電、工業用電都可以確保？"],["曾次長文生：是。"],["徐委員志榮：那應該是算很好的消息。但是為什麼那些國家又要倡議，說要到2050年提高核能發電的三倍呢？就是因為核能發電有它的優點，當然，這是在部長講的前提之下，包括安全、核廢料處理等等。他們是因為核能發電一方面便宜，二方面可能碳排少，是這樣子嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，第一個就是比較高的比例的倡議國家本身都有核工業，這是第一件事。第二件事情，這個事情的倡議其實是來自於，因為要在資本市場取得資金的投注遇到了困難，所以才會有這一個倡議。這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況。"],["徐委員志榮：好，話再講回來，雖然2025年核電都要停掉，但是畢竟核能發電總比火力發電，甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排嘛！"],["曾次長文生：應該是這樣子講，每一個發電的優劣狀況不一樣，就全生命週期來講，它的碳排比較少。"],["徐委員志榮：一方面便宜啦！我的意思是說，在部長講的這個前提之下，我們是不是還可能會有核能發電？因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，現在……"],["徐委員志榮：所以才會說，譬如我們現在都在講要保持開放的態度，當然有關新核能技術發展，核融合等等，我記得陳院長好像也這樣講，也不是說2025年以後臺灣就絕對沒有核能發電，好像他的態度也不是這樣。"],["薛部長富盛：給徐委員報告，事實上像美國現在就積極發展核融合，因為現有在商轉的大部分都是核廢料……"],["徐委員志榮：什麼時候成熟，我們也還不知道嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：還沒有成熟。我再跟委員報告，美國原本在發展小型模組反應器（SMRs），但他在二個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉，因為成本越來越高，而且發電的效率也跟他們預期的有落差。"],["徐委員志榮：好，最後我有點想要講的是，倡議的國家都國土很寬廣。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯，他們核廢料處理沒問題。"],["徐委員志榮：我知道好像以前有張憲義的事件，其實就核廢料的處理，台電好像也跟北韓有簽約過，甚至於跟中國大陸也有touch。次長，你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎？"],["曾次長文生：沒有簽約這件事。"],["徐委員志榮：好像文獻上，我查到的資料是有啦！至少有touch啦！我的意思是，那時候就是因為美國老大反對這樣子，所以就不了了之了。像台積電用電量這麼的大，美國國土又這麼的大，就算我們要繼續核能發電，我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話，你美國老大又要我們台積電的電子產品，我們萬一電不夠的話，你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料吧？我大概的意思是這樣子。次長，你覺得呢？還是你覺得這是假議題，以後我們沒有核能發電的事情，所以沒有核廢料？"],["曾次長文生：這一題是這樣子，高階核廢料最終處置這個事情，跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事，這是第一個。第二個，你剛才提到跟其他國家的核廢料的減容處理，那一個事情應該是法國的部分，但是最後預算在立法院被刪除了，我想大概是這兩件事情，跟委員報告。"],["徐委員志榮：總歸一句，2025非核家園，電力可以不用擔心，大家聽起來就很安心了。最後一次的委員會，我不希望副總統候選人等一下站起來，我也很對不起他。謝謝部長、謝謝次長，謝謝主席。謝謝。"],["曾次長文生：謝謝委員。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝徐委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","請張育美委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.40221875,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.27096875,"end":4.334093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.31159375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.539093750000003,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.137843750000002,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.41159375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.13221875,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.27971875,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.49909375,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.53596875,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.05846875,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.00346875,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.32721875,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.16159375,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.85721875,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.71721875,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.58596875,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.32784375,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.38159375000001,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.72284375000001,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.66096875000001,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.73221875,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.05221875000001,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.52471875,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.0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拜託請薛部長有請薛部長部長好好 徐文豪部長跟召委一行這個COP28大家辛苦了啦不會不會 應當的"},{"start":18.168,"end":32.355,"text":"我們剛落幕的這個COP28其中今年的會議主題就是目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的那個工業革命前的那個基準全球平均升溫控制在"},{"start":34.196,"end":53.502,"text":"兩度C以內控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限部長您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到雖然我們不是肺炎國有達到我們巴黎協定全球判定的要求了嗎目前看起來事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好了特別是包括"},{"start":54.482,"end":72.625,"text":"這次大會通過的一個結議裡面再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍能源效益那個我大概也有看到您的說明我們都優移其他國家的9%我們好像都有20幾%嘛所以你說的那個三倍不是什麼問題啦一樣的三倍齁在這個報紙裡面"},{"start":81.872,"end":105.818,"text":"當然不是結論早上講的就是倡議倡議核能新方向美陸等二十多國富裕全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍當然部長您也有回應這個標題是說核廢料不解決核能就是假議題您講的三個那個"},{"start":107.716,"end":109.918,"text":"還有核能安全及全民共識"},{"start":128.902,"end":153.763,"text":"它這個三點理由它是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識所以我一直看這個第三點就是包含在第二點嘛您講的是比較正確啦還是要全民的共識我相信全民應該會有共識啦在那個前提之下"},{"start":155.779,"end":159.726,"text":"那不禁又讓我想到說我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園"},{"start":164.288,"end":191.813,"text":"給習委員報告齁2025即使我們沒有談到火候加減本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠了因為現在核二核三到2025本來也就是要Face out就是要服役了意思就是說到2025我們核能發電都歸零了大概歸零了因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了研議呢時間也過了研議的時間它有一定的程序所以已經也過了嘛"},{"start":192.349,"end":198.095,"text":"那重點來了,是不是要經濟部的長官回答?那到時候我們再電過嗎?本來我們的%數是天然氣50、火力30、力能20,早上聽了一下好像"},{"start":216.758,"end":239.295,"text":"才10%左右是不是哪一個?再生能源沒有不會再生能源是今年就超過10%的我們目標是要20%是不是?我們到2026年就可以達到20%就可以達到20%?是的這樣可以完全期待那個核能發電廠統統停掉嗎?核能去年8%今年大概剩5%"},{"start":244.636,"end":268.536,"text":"那它原來的狀況就是核一二三大概四百億度簡單的講2025年核能發電2025年的時候月底啦也不是說一月初啦簡單講是應該講年末啦2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉然後我們台灣的電力不配不夠"},{"start":269.639,"end":288.692,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說河山的二號機除役的時間是2025年的五月不是年底啦是五月就會除役我是說最慢啦好那它的狀況是現在的狀況就是整個供電的狀況我們的估計就是都是足夠的我們先來討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳"},{"start":290.785,"end":304.514,"text":"所以結論是說2025我說年底啦你說5月啦5月核酸就停掉了以後我們不擔心會切電我們供電是穩定的是的沒有問題是國人"},{"start":306.462,"end":327.213,"text":"民生用電、工業用電都可以確保那應該是算很好的消息但是為什麼那些國家他又要倡議說要到2050年提高分農發電三倍呢當然就是因為分農發電是比較"},{"start":331.178,"end":344.516,"text":"部長的前提之下,安全、火廢料處理等等,是核能發電一方面便宜,二方面可能碳排少"},{"start":345.574,"end":370.815,"text":"是這樣子嗎跟委員報告第一個就是比較高的比例他們本身都有合工業就倡議倡議的國家本身他們有合工業這是第一件事第二個件事情就是這個事情的倡議其實是來自於就是要在資本市場取得資金的投注其實遇到了困難所以才會有這個倡議我想說這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況"},{"start":372.276,"end":390.227,"text":"那話再講回來,雖然2025非核、核電都停掉,但是畢竟核能發電總比火力發電甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排"},{"start":391.951,"end":416.459,"text":"應該是這樣子講就是說每一個發電它的優劣狀況不一樣就是就全生命週期來講一方面便宜啦那我的意思是說在部長講的這個前提之下我們是不是還可能還有昏龍發電因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛跟委員報告所以才會說"},{"start":419.605,"end":437.663,"text":"譬如我們現在都在講說保持開放的態度當然有關新恆隆技術發展什麼融如何我記得好像沈院長好像也這樣講也不是說2025以後就絕對台灣沒有恆隆發展好像他的態度也不是這樣的"},{"start":439.232,"end":465.01,"text":"給習委員報告事實上像美國現在就積極發展核融合因為現有的大部分在商場的大部分都是什麼時候成熟我們也還不知道還沒有成熟那我再跟委員報告一下美國原本在發展叫做小型模組反應器SMR事實上它在兩個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉因為成本越來越高"},{"start":465.891,"end":492.999,"text":"而且發電的整個效力也跟他們預期的事實上是有落差最後我有點想要講的是說那個參與的國家都國土很寬廣是沒錯他們核廢料處理沒問題我知道好像以前有那個張憲毅的事件其實台電好像也有跟北韓有簽約過就核廢料的處理甚至於跟中國大陸也有太極市長你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":496.294,"end":516.75,"text":"好像文獻上我是查到資料是有啦至少有touch我的意思是說那個美國老大你就是那時候就是因為他反對嘛反對這樣子所以就不了了之嘛那我的意思是說像台積電用電量這麼的大那你美國國土又這麼的大"},{"start":517.853,"end":534.625,"text":"就是算我們要繼續核能發電的話我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話你美國老大你又要我們台積電的這個電子產品我們萬一電不夠的話你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料我大概的意思是這樣子不知道您覺得呢"},{"start":540.431,"end":561.298,"text":"這是假議題以後我們沒有活動發展的事情所以沒有核廢料這一題是這樣子就是說高階核廢料最終處置這個事情跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事這是第一個第二個是你剛才提到就是說跟其他國家就是核廢料的減容處理那個事情應該是在上上屆"},{"start":564.679,"end":586.184,"text":"市長這樣子啦 總歸宜記啦2025非核加嚴 電力可以不用擔心 這個我們聽起來大家就很安心了啦最後一次的委員會 我也不希望副總統霍簡仁等一下站起來啦 我也很對不起他啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":591.425,"end":591.726,"text":"請張美璋委員"}]}},{"id":"149027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3c7d29786071ef702a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03223f1cde1601a035825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:28:35 - 10:35:17","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":402,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:35:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:28:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時28分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。部長，我們知道#MeToo事件之後，本席也有針對前環保署督察總隊李隊長的這個部分提出要求，我們要調查嘛！調查報告完成了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不但完成，也經過考績會開會通過了……"],["陳委員椒華：院長也看過了？"],["薛部長富盛：行政程序我已經批了，我們大概在最近應該會對外公布。"],["陳委員椒華：前天行政院秘書長說院長也看過了，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：都看過了，所以應該會去公布。"],["陳委員椒華：所以環境部什麼時候要公布呢？"],["薛部長富盛：只要院長批示過應該就會公布了，因為我已經有批了，所以……"],["陳委員椒華：這個禮拜可以公布嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：應該是可以吧。"],["陳委員椒華：可以嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對，因為這個都公開了，而且紀錄都很清楚，也做了懲處了。"],["陳委員椒華：好，那就請環境部公布。聽說是在等部長回來裁示，那就請……"],["薛部長富盛：我記得我回來，我馬上就批了。"],["陳委員椒華：那請儘速公布，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：是，會的。"],["陳委員椒華：好。再來本席也關心針對山坡地不當開發的問題，這是82年通過的環評，現在他有大規模的變更，只有備查，雖然是新竹縣政府在處理的，不過82年當年定稿的是環保署，雖是前環保署的環評作業，但到現在定稿本都沒有上網，請問什麼時候可以上網呢？本席已經追很久了。"],["薛部長富盛：這一點我請我們環保司的劉司長。"],["劉司長宗勇：跟陳委員報告一下，因為新竹市有給我們一個公文，第一個他手上有一份，另外一份是因為地方政府依照的山開辦法裡面也有提到環境評估報告，但那是在83年的，我們現在在確認那個版本是什麼，因為年代比較久遠，我們現在就是請他去確認。"],["陳委員椒華：對。"],["劉司長宗勇：但我們是從內政部……因為內政部的書件系統上沒有查到那個環評報告書……"],["陳委員椒華：可是當年在環保署審的，環保署應該有吧！"],["劉司長宗勇：對，我們現在就是在確認那個報告，因為它還有提到83年的那個版本，所以我們現在是請新竹縣政府確認……"],["陳委員椒華：如果有好幾個版本，我們也希望都能夠上網。"],["劉司長宗勇：對，趕快確認，我們會把它核對一下。"],["陳委員椒華：可不可以儘速？"],["劉司長宗勇：我們儘快，我們跟內政部就是在談這些文件的核對，畢竟是30年前的檔案，所以要確認一下。"],["陳委員椒華：本席也去地檢署告發了。"],["劉司長宗勇：瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：所以也希望這個公文書能夠儘速出現，不要失蹤那麼久，謝謝。","再來針對那個……部長，我們也在杜拜一起關心氣候變遷COP28……"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員，是。"],["陳委員椒華：現在我們到杜拜也看到化石燃料的使用，整個杜拜幾乎每天的PM2.5都超過150。部長，現在就是說，我也看到我們國內空污的抵換，這個因為本席已經關心非常非常久，有十幾年了，也看到環保署要去用環保金爐、離島減量、舊車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換，所以我要請問部長，這個有經過公正單位的抵換機制，就是怎麼換，還有譬如說，臺北的移動污染源、臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的開發嗎？這個都有審慎地評估過嗎？部長。"],["薛部長富盛：這點我可不可以請我們大氣環境司的蔡司長來回復一下比較細節的部分。"],["陳委員椒華：好。"],["蔡司長孟裕：謝謝委員。跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的，這個部分是不可以抵換的，一定是在同一個空品區，所以如果是剛剛委員提到像……"],["陳委員椒華：可是司長，如果是同一個空品區的話也有問題啊！司長也非常清楚，譬如說工業區一直在增量，然後在偏鄉減量，你沒有做流行病學調查，或者是健康風險評估的時候，你會讓工業區附近民眾的風險會更高，這個是很可怕的啊！不是嗎？"],["蔡司長孟裕：跟委員報告，其實空氣是流來流去的，所以我們現在研究的情形是，整個空氣……"],["陳委員椒華：流來流去，可是整個氣流如果都停滯不流動的時候，那個污染量是很可怕的啊！你不能說在同一個空品區流來流去就可以去抵換，這是不對的，不是嗎？"],["蔡司長孟裕：跟委員報告，這個其實是研究出來的情形，在一個空品區裡面去做抵換，這個部分會得到最好的減量改善的效果。"],["陳委員椒華：我不能夠去相信這個部分，然後請部長好嗎？部長，我要請你瞭解這個部分是滿嚴重的，是不是可以給本席確認，是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的抵換是不會影響國人健康的？你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得這個是有必要，因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制，以及地區產業的發展。"],["陳委員椒華：但是國人健康還不如產業發展嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可是陳委員應該知道，空氣是流通的，就如同我們臺灣每到冬季的時候，空污就特別嚴重，可是那個是境外的，又不是我們自己產生的。"],["陳委員椒華：部長，你講這一句就表示你是外行，冬天空氣不好是境外，這個真的就是你講外行話了，這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣，我在這裡也不攻擊你，我是說這個部分如果你要去抵換，你要拿出科學的、公正的確認，不會危害國人的健康，然後你再正式施行，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["陳委員椒華：那就請司長給本席你們怎麼去抵換、抵換的方法、細節，我們再開公聽會或者是再確認，這樣可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。"],["陳委員椒華：好，那就謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝，請徐志榮徐委員。","先做一個宣告，今日無臨時提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.886593750000001,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.31534375,"end":20.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.449718750000002,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.63096875,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":24.195968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.65971875,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.06034375,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.80659375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.329718750000005,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.83159375,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.915968750000005,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.03721875,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.783468750000004,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.74534375,"end":46.977218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.563468750000006,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.525343750000005,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.55909375,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.53784375,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.744093750000005,"e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就是說我們也在杜拜一起關心這個氣候變遷COP28那現在我們到杜拜也看到這個化石燃料的使用整個杜拜幾乎每天都是PM2.5都超過150"},{"start":182.503,"end":197.139,"text":"那部長現在就是說我們國內我也看到我們的空屋的抵換那這個本行因為已經關心非常非常久了十幾年了那也看到環保署要去用環保金爐離島減換救車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換"},{"start":204.366,"end":210.07,"text":"那我要請問部長這個有經過公正單位的這個抵換的機制就是怎麼換還有呢比如說臺北的這個移動污染源臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的這個開發可以嗎我們這個都有審慎的去評估過了嗎部長"},{"start":224.492,"end":246.167,"text":"這一點我可不可以請我們大區市長來回覆一下好不好 比較細節的部分好 謝謝委員跟委員報告剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的這個部分是不可以抵換的一定是在同一個空品區所以如果是剛剛委員提到"},{"start":247.308,"end":268.545,"text":"市長如果同一個空品區也有問題啊市長也非常清楚比如說工業區一直在增量然後在偏鄉減量然後你沒有做這個流行病學調查或者是健康風險評估的時候你會讓工業區附近的民眾的這個風險會更高啊這個是很可怕的啊"},{"start":269.085,"end":280.078,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告其實空氣是流來流去的所以整個我們現在研究的情形是整個空氣流來流去可是那個整個氣流如果都"},{"start":284.242,"end":302.223,"text":"都停滯不流動的時候那個污染量是很可怕的啊那你不能說流來流去好像就同一個空品區就可以去抵換這是不對的不是嗎跟委員報告這個其實是研究出來的情形在一個空品區裡面去做抵換"},{"start":303.104,"end":327.922,"text":"那這個部分會得到最好的一個減量跟改善的效果我不能夠去相信這個部分請部長好不好部長我要請你了解這個部分是蠻嚴重那是不是可以給本席這個確認是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的底換是不會影響國人健康的那你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢"},{"start":329.86,"end":354.972,"text":"我覺得這個是有必要因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制以及地區產業的一個發展但是國人健康比產業發展還要不如產業發展嗎就是說空氣是流通就如我們台灣每到冬季的時候空汙就特別嚴重可是那個是境外的啊"},{"start":355.532,"end":380.883,"text":"又不是我們自己產生的部長你講這一句就是表示你是外行空氣空氣冬天空氣不好是境外你這個真的就是你外行化了這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣我在這裡也不攻擊你我是說這個部分你要去底換你要拿出科學的、公正的確認不會危害國人健康"},{"start":381.483,"end":382.943,"text":"然後你再正式施行"}]}},{"id":"149026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c389b6618603acd76ca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322ec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:19:23 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正正在進行當中所以以前只有書審而已對 只有書審那你現在應該要實際到現場去看它是不是有這樣的技術啊沒錯 未來我們會有三個步驟除了書審"},{"start":468.656,"end":497.313,"text":"接下來事因應也要看接下來在因應當中還要隨時去監督我們希望把它更具體的落實也來監測看看到底這些廠商有沒有按照既定的計劃書規範來做我相信未來是可以做很大的改善同時跟委員報告以往我們是把SRF只有一個標準原因是我們是以品質管制的角度來看"},{"start":497.813,"end":515.932,"text":"那歐洲他們是以產品的角度所以它產品有分等級那目前環境部在規劃的方向也是要朝著去分級的方向所以我相信只要給環境部一段時間我覺得SRF這一塊應該是可以更精進更落實"},{"start":518.114,"end":525.538,"text":"我們是希望說真的能夠落實啊而不是假這個名義然後去行這個逢號離職式啊我們發現這個問題了會積極改進好 謝謝黃委員謝謝有請陳焦華 陳委員謝謝主席 請部長"}]}},{"id":"149025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c374f9a4d56476bb22a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322e89831f4f6d40dec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"10:08:27 - 10:19:16","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":649,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:19:16+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T10:08:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":664,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（10時8分）首先謝謝主席有排這個議程，我們這個會期雖然快要結束，但是由COP28勾引出非常重要也是將來政府各部門要努力的方向，我想今天非常有意義，感謝各部門的努力。因為我講的比較跟健康……但是因為跟環境部還是有關係，我再請薛部長好了，那衛福部是周次長，請，我們一起來分享一下，好不好？"],["主席：有請行政單位，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：邱委員好。"],["邱委員泰源：我們看下一張，因為時間的關係，以這一張來講，我會比較focus在健康。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員泰源：climate change跟health risk這部分，當然2023年世界醫師會……，世界醫師會擁有1,100萬個醫師在世界上，其實他的發動力量是很夠的啦，分布在都會，當然也很多在偏鄉地區服務，在2023年的一個宣言，尤其是針對基層醫療primary health care，當然不只climate change，現在慢性病越來越多，流行病史的 risk，人類也一直在承受環境的衝擊、氣候的變遷對健康的影響，還有抗生素的esistance（抗藥性）等等，在 coming years、未來都是很重要的。其特別強調當然Primary health care，基層醫療的action是非常重要，守住第一線以防治、建立整個韌性的醫療防疫健康體系，是這樣的情況，加上COP，右邊是COP的主席，我們都知道碳排、空氣污染對健康都非常有影響。","我很敬佩我的一個學生，現在是大林慈濟醫院副院長─林名男，多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了，也算是臺灣之光，世界上相關的議程常常都會請他過去。我最近也開始跟他密切地瞭解他在做什麼，希望將之推展到整個醫療體系。我想這個部分先跟兩位首長說明一下。","再看下一張，因為我的問題在後面，剛好我們每一年世界醫師會跟臺灣醫師會都會在臺灣辦理國際研討會，不管是外交部或者衛福部都很熱烈地支撐，每一年相關的都是很重要的主題，今年的主題是全球健康安全與醫療照護體系。我們請的2個世界重量級的總統都有接見，這個女生是世界醫師會會長，這個男生是理事會主席、是韓國。我們在12月辦理，所以都會把今年度大概世界醫師會在全世界各國演講的主題、最重要的拿來我們這裡，因為他們兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係，而且講得非常精彩，而我們國內的演講者在這方面，還是在於防疫以後怎麼樣建立韌性的部分，所以他們稍微好像前進一點點，我們要趕快接上進度。因此我覺得今天的會議很重要，我們今天應該要有一些就未來希望呼籲政府或者民間各種 NGO，甚至是醫界，我們要怎麼樣做，我想這個部分拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔起領導的責任。"],["薛部長富盛：好，是。"],["邱委員泰源：不要到下次COP29又要再討論一次，中間就是按照我們原來的規畫、計畫一直在進行，這樣我整個review起來就可能跟不上時代。","那我們看下一張，氣候變遷所會造成的，我們用眼睛看比較快，造成區域的差距越大、疾病的型態，還有不要忘記了，心理健康與社會心理這部分在過去我們裡面沒有……我們在檢討，我也希望衛福部以後注意到這個部分，climate change對mental、psychosocial方面的問題；對老人家的衝擊，我想這個不言而喻，更有很多健康上的問題。","請看下一張，這張我是希望提出來，在我們這次的國際研討會裡面，大致上我們覺得，其以醫師的角色，因為是世界醫師會，大概有幾個工作可以這樣做，我請衛福部能夠帶回去檢討看看這些，未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣的一個趨勢，衛福部可以做哪些事情，或者已經在做哪些事情，我想這個非常重要，讓醫療體系趕快接上，而不是只有在醫療體系還限於碳盤查的階段，看起來這樣跟不上時代。所以拜託，好不好？次長，可以嗎？"],["周次長志浩：好，可以。"],["邱委員泰源：我是希望如此，因為這個會期，現在是12月了，你在一個月內看能不能提出一個報告給我們衛環委員會？"],["周次長志浩：好。"],["邱委員泰源：讓我們展開為了這一屆的ending跟下一屆，像黃秀芳委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向啦！好不好？最重要的當然是，還有就是可能要有資源進來。今年大概都沒有這方面的預算，但是未來我們因為要做這些重要的事情，所以明年是不是可以來編預算？當然，包括全民的宣導、專業人員的教育和研究，不要讓這些花了一、二十年時間關心climate change的同仁們，還是很寂寞地在那邊做研究，他們過去的努力也代表臺灣至少不要落後，現在我們要給他們温暖、給他們支持，在他們過去的經驗和成果之上繼續努力，這應該也是我們吳召委的心願。這個我要拜託衛福部。","當然，我過去在這裡也不是說哪個部會負責什麼，而是彼此都有關係，像過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作，我相信環境部在健康和climate change也有很多合作的平臺，尤其我們薛部長、薛校長對生命科學、人民健康非常重視……"],["薛部長富盛：是，跟委員報告，我們跟國衛院有很多空氣和健康的合作。"],["邱委員泰源：你還創設了中興大學的醫學系，非常厲害！所以我想你對這個部分很瞭解，所以我也拜託環境部帶回去看看這些問題可以從你們那邊怎麼樣來幫忙。","接下來還有一些建議，因為要兩個部來幫忙，所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多建議，這整個環境變化所影響的當然很多、很多，各部會都有，但是因為我主要focus在醫療、健康，所以請針對WMA的建議在一個月內給我們一份資料，說明目前政府落實了哪些、未來要做哪些、有什麼構想。","現在臺灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成的其他健康問題，都沒有把健康問題納入氣候變遷行動的核心，這個部分希望未來衛福部和環境部在規劃的時候能注意，何況這次最多國家簽的宣言就是climate change and health，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員泰源：部長也有帶隊去，跟部長出去考察一定很累，他非常有精神，但是我想也會收穫很多，一定帶了很多資料回來，以後會對臺灣有很大的貢獻。","此外，感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖考察了相關的環境、垃圾的問題，部長親自帶隊。他以一個澎湖長大的小孩，有如此傑出的成就，但還是很瞭解地方的需求，說明了環境部未來要做的事情，我們收穫很多。也感謝部會同仁參與，我覺得那對澎湖的發展非常重要，在這邊特別感謝。","我剛剛提的這些就請次長在1個月內給我們報告喔！"],["周次長志浩：好。"],["邱委員泰源：因為未來國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做，我們就會來呼籲。薛部長這邊也幫忙一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝邱委員。"],["邱委員泰源：特別謝謝吳召委今天安排這個很有意義的專題報告讓大家討論。好，感謝大家，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝邱委員。"],["主席：謝謝召委。下一位請黃秀芳黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.44846875,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.812843750000003,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.00596875,"end":29.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.148468750000003,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.16846875,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.31159375,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.235343750000006,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.00721875,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.454093750000006,"end":48.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.17971875,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.69846875,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.39034375,"end":54.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":54.672218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.672218750000006,"end":56.157218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.42721875,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.93284375,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.13784375,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.98096875,"end":85.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.55346875000001,"end":96.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.39971875,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.35284375,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.40284375,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.42346875000001,"end":120.48471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.77159375000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.54721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.20534375000001,"end":127.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.96034375,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.00159375,"end":141.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.98346875000001,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.35284375,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.10346875000002,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.19159375,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.97534375,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.21159375000002,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.62471875,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.81409375,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.60284375,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.59846875000002,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":183.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.85471875000002,"end":183.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.17534375000002,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.81471875000003,"end":203.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":201.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.06284375,"end":201.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.52659375000002,"end":205.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.44596875000002,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.33471875,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.65909375,"end":221.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.17346875,"end":224.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.65346875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.77534375000002,"end":237.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.36096875,"end":243.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.55409375000002,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.1859687500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謝謝主席首先謝謝主席排這個有COP28勾引出我們在這個會期雖然快要結束但是非常重要也是將來不管是政府各部門要努力的一個方向我想今天非常有意義感謝各部門的努力因為我講的比較跟"},{"start":31.207,"end":56.983,"text":"但是因為跟環境部還是有關係,我再請薛部長好了,那衛福部是?周市長來,我們一起來分享一下好不好?好,有請行政單位,謝謝我們看下一張,因為時間的關係我們看這一張來講,我會比較focus在健康、health risk這個部分"},{"start":57.739,"end":84.983,"text":"Climate Change和Risk這部分那當然我們在2003年世界一世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世世"},{"start":85.766,"end":105.202,"text":"當然不只climate change啦當然現在慢性病越來越多流行病的risk也一直承受人類在承受環境的衝擊那個氣候的變遷對健康的影響還有抗生素的一個resistance"},{"start":108.526,"end":136.058,"text":"抗藥性等等的都是在未來很重要的那他有特別強調當然基層醫療的action是非常重要的鎖住第一線來建立整個韌性的一個醫療防疫健康體系所以這樣的一個情況那加上COP右邊這邊是COP的主席我們都知道這個碳排空氣汙染"},{"start":136.974,"end":166.237,"text":"大概都是對健康非常的有影響我很敬佩我一個學生現在是大嶺慈濟醫院的副院長林明蘭多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了也算是臺灣之光常常世界上相關的議程都會請他過去我最近也開始跟他密切的來瞭解他來做什麼希望把他推展到可能醫療體系我想這個部分"},{"start":167.555,"end":194.923,"text":"先跟兩位首長先說明一下再看下一張好了因為我的問題可能在後面剛好也是我們每一年世界醫師會跟臺灣醫師會都會在臺灣辦理一個國際研討會不管是外交部或者是衛福部都很熱烈的來執行每一年都相關的都很重要的主題今年的主題是全球健康安全醫療招募體系"},{"start":195.988,"end":215.242,"text":"其實我們請的兩個重量級的世界這個總統都有接見這個女生是世界醫事會會長這男生是理事會主席是韓國韓國他們不約而同都把最近一年的我們在12月半所以都會把今年今年度大概世界醫事會在全世界各國"},{"start":216.434,"end":236.413,"text":"在演講的主題最重要的拿來我們家因為兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係而且講得非常精彩我們國內的演講者在這方面還是在防疫以後總要建立一個韌性的一個"},{"start":237.569,"end":258.317,"text":"所以他們還稍微好像前進一點點我們要趕快接上這個進度所以今天的我覺得今天的會議很重要我們今天會議應該要有一些未來希望呼籲政府或者是全民間各種NU甚至EJ我們怎麼樣來做我想這個部分環境部跟"},{"start":259.451,"end":282.38,"text":"拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔任起這個領導的責任不要到下一次COP29再來,又要來討論一次中間就是按照我們原來的規劃、計畫一直在進行,這樣可能我整個review起來可能跟不上時代那我們看下一張影像那氣候當然變遷會造成這個,我想我們用眼睛看比較快"},{"start":284.203,"end":307.102,"text":"造成區域的差跡與大疾病的形態還有不要忘記心理健康跟社會心理這個部分一直在過去我們裡面沒有我們在檢討我也希望衛生部在以後注意到這個部分和他們Change對Mental、Psycho、Social方面的問題對老人家的衝擊我想這不言而喻多的是更有健康很多健康上的問題"},{"start":311.348,"end":336.317,"text":"那我這張是希望提出來我要請衛福部這是在我們這次的國際研討會裡面大概大致上覺得我們那個他是用醫師啦因為是世界醫師會嘛大概有幾個工作可以這樣做我請那個衛福部我能夠帶回去"},{"start":337.748,"end":365.912,"text":"去看看檢討這些將來可不可以未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣一個趨勢我們未來可不可以做哪些事情已經在做哪些事情了或者在做哪些事情我想這個非常重要讓醫療體系趕快來接上而不是只有在醫療體系還在盤查還在現已盤查探盤查的階段看起來這樣對不上時代所以拜託我們好不好?次長可以嗎?好可以"},{"start":366.732,"end":389.084,"text":"我希望因為這個會期現在十二月了,你一個月後看能不能拿一個報告給我們未完給我們展開為了這一屆的Ending跟下一屆像我們黃學芳委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向最重要當然就是說,還有就是可能要有資源進來"},{"start":394.352,"end":416.476,"text":"明年是不是未來我們必須要做這些事情?這是重要的,我們就來編預算當然包括從前面的先導、專業人的教育、研究不要讓這些研究、關心climate change的這些同仁們"},{"start":417.922,"end":436.848,"text":"花了1、2十年的研究還是被很寂寞的在那邊做他們過去的努力也帶領到台灣治理至少不要落後現在我們要給他溫暖、給他支持然後利用他們過去的經驗、成果我們繼續來努力這也是我們吳釗緯應該他的心願當然最重要就是有一個這個我拜託那個"},{"start":446.464,"end":467.236,"text":"衛福部當然我也希望我過去在這裡也是部會都不是說你負責什麼都彼此有關係像我們過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作的我相信環境部如果在健康跟climate change裡面也有很多合作的平台也很恭喜我們學部長、學校長"},{"start":468.632,"end":496.441,"text":"我們跟國衛院有很多空氣跟健康的合作創起了我們中興大學的醫學系這個非常的厲害所以我想他對這個部分能夠了解我也拜託衛福部環境委員可以帶回去看看這些問題可以從你那邊走過來幫忙好我們看下一張有一些建議我當然是也在這邊"},{"start":499.619,"end":522.636,"text":"因為要兩個部來幫忙所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多的建議那目前因為我主要focus在醫療、健康所以我想這整個環境的變化所影響的當然很多很多各部會都有那針對WMA的建議目前政府落實哪些未來要做哪些也在這一次的一個"},{"start":524.209,"end":548.491,"text":"大概一個月給我們一個看做多少算多少,未來有什麼構想?看下一張因為現在台灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成其他問題都沒有把健康問題納入在氣候變遷行動的核心所以我想這個部分希望未來衛福部跟環境部在規劃的時候能把"},{"start":550.708,"end":578.602,"text":"造成的驚豪,何況這一次你看全部國家簽最多國家簽最多國家簽的先年就是climate change and health是沒錯沒錯跟部長出去訪查一定很累他這種魔鬼他非常有精神我想但是我想也會收復很多一定也帶很多那邊開會的會以後會對國家對台灣會有很大的貢獻"},{"start":580.873,"end":609.164,"text":"也感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖也去考察了一些澎湖相關環境、垃圾的問題那部長親自帶隊他以一個澎湖長大的小孩有如此的成就但是還是很瞭解到地方的需求那給我們很多環境部未來要做的事情給我們收穫很多也感謝部長"},{"start":611.162,"end":638.017,"text":"不會裡面的同仁來參與我覺得那個對澎湖的發展也是非常重要在這邊特別感謝我剛剛提的這些就請次長一起報告因為接下來我們就要未來我們國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做我們就會來服役先副長這邊也幫忙一下好 謝謝邱委特別謝謝吳釗緯"},{"start":640.336,"end":646.083,"text":"今天排的這樣子很有意義的一個大家討論好感謝大家謝謝好謝謝邱委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3a1b927e31281aa13a8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03224afb211783feff0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"09:58:00 - 10:08:22","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":622,"end_time":"2023-12-14T10:08:22+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:58:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（9時58分）謝謝召委，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員為洲：薛部長，這一次你有去參加這個COP會議嗎？有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，有。"],["林委員為洲：你是坐什麼艙，經濟艙還是商務艙？"],["薛部長富盛：商務艙。"],["林委員為洲：OK，你知道規定嘛！部長級的可以坐商務艙，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：按照……是。"],["林委員為洲：有沒有被升等升成頭等艙？"],["薛部長富盛：應該有吧！"],["林委員為洲：你有升等成頭等艙？"],["薛部長富盛：因為這個都是幕僚安排，我……"],["林委員為洲：所以你是坐頭等艙去的，誰幫你升等的你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我整個行程這些事務性的……"],["林委員為洲：說明一下，請你們的幕僚幫忙說明，誰幫部長升等頭等艙的？"],["蔡署長玲儀：跟委員報告，這個是按照行政院的規定。"],["林委員為洲：行政院規定只能坐商務艙喔！"],["蔡署長玲儀：部會首長如果是有提供頭等艙的話，是可以的。"],["林委員為洲：你們是買頭等艙，還是買商務艙啦？"],["蔡署長玲儀：我們是買頭等艙。"],["林委員為洲：喔！買的時候就買頭等艙？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：這是符合規定嗎？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：你要確定呢！"],["蔡署長玲儀：是。"],["林委員為洲：還是被升等的？"],["蔡署長玲儀：是，按照就是……"],["林委員為洲：原來就買頭等艙？"],["蔡署長玲儀：按照規定來的。"],["林委員為洲：不過這個以後我們還是可以檢討，有必要一定要坐頭等艙嗎？因為我從來沒有坐過頭等艙，我不知道頭等艙會是什麼樣的滋味，商務艙已經很好了，我坐過商務艙，所以將來預算上我們再來檢討。好，你請回，部長留著。","我們先看一下你們在FB的粉專，最近你們一個禮拜貼好幾篇跟本業無關的內容，幫行政院大內宣，像是長照2.0溫暖照顧。你們是環境部，不是衛福部。"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告……"],["林委員為洲：還有打造溫暖而堅韌的臺灣，講疫情特別條例照顧臺灣，這跟你有什麼關係？跟環境部有什麼關係？"],["薛部長富盛：給林委員報告……"],["林委員為洲：要你們貼文大內宣？"],["薛部長富盛：行政院的部會是一體的。"],["林委員為洲：幫忙大內宣？"],["薛部長富盛：這個跟大內宣沒有關係。給林委員報告，行政院底下的各部會是一體的，這個部分已經有40……"],["林委員為洲：難怪按讚數是30、40，沒有人看，所以也沒有得到什麼大內宣的效果。我建議你們還是回歸自己的本業，對不對？這幾天大家都在討論COP會議到底在談哪一些內容？臺灣還有哪一些可以做得更好，對不對？要專注在本業，貼這個也沒人看，你們的FB評價兩顆星，加油，請注重本業。"],["薛部長富盛：是……"],["林委員為洲：這才是你的專業。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員，我們當然也注重本業，整個行政團隊……"],["林委員為洲：比例是一個禮拜貼三篇，全部是大內宣，是跟貴部毫無關係的貼文，行政院有行政院的網站或是FB粉絲專業社團，它去貼嘛！你們要注重本業。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員為洲：好，你去參加COP 28會議，當然大家在講從27屆到現在28屆，我們到底有沒有進步？但是因為指標的關係，有的NGO評論我們是退步，但是你們一直說我們是進步的，好吧！各有各的指標，採樣的指標不同，不過這個是叫做德國看守的NGO……"],["薛部長富盛：它是一個民間組織。"],["林委員為洲：我知道它是一個NGO，它的CCPI每年都會評，大家也都會參考，所以還是注意一下。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們來當做參考。"],["林委員為洲：看它他怎麼樣評。你剛剛有做一部分解釋，不過這幾項我們拿出來看，整體表現就不講，因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來……。我們看它的內容，臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差，在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評，非常差的是能源使用，所以這一部分值得我們檢討。你知道我們現在發電的組合，火力發電占多少嗎？火力發電裡面當然有燃煤、燃氣……"],["薛部長富盛：燃煤跟天然氣大概都各自將近40%左右。"],["林委員為洲：所以占八成。"],["薛部長富盛：是，可是我們的再生能源大概已經從1、2%到現在10%了，這個成長速率在國際上的排名應該是前段班。"],["林委員為洲：降低火力發電的比例做得不好，所以這個部分……"],["薛部長富盛：我們先用天然氣取代煤……"],["林委員為洲：天然氣還是會排放氣體。"],["薛部長富盛：能源都是以進口為主，所以各位應該也都知道，我們不可能一時之間馬上……"],["林委員為洲：天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源。"],["薛部長富盛：它的排碳量比煤……"],["林委員為洲：它會排哪一些氣體？"],["薛部長富盛：會排二氧化碳溫室氣體……"],["林委員為洲：也是會排嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：但是它排……"],["林委員為洲：它也是化石原料嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯，但是它的量比生煤少很多。"],["林委員為洲：大家都要減少化石原料的使用，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：所以這次的COP為什麼不敢直接說phase-out of fossil fuels，最後也是必須妥協。"],["林委員為洲：因為有人反對啊！阿拉伯國家反對。"],["薛部長富盛：為什麼會反對？就是因為它不實際。"],["林委員為洲：因為他們生產石油啊！為什麼反對？難道你要幫他講話嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，林委員，因為我們沒有生產石油……"],["林委員為洲：人家要phase-out of fossil fuels，這是趨勢嘛！你要幫他們講話，是嗎？說這個大家沒有達成共識。"],["薛部長富盛：不是幫他們講話啦，因為我們也沒有生產石油。"],["林委員為洲：對啊！我們要有自己的……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：2050能夠達到淨零碳排。"],["薛部長富盛：我們要對自己有信心。"],["林委員為洲：你的能源那一塊是最主要的，我提供幾個資料，COP27的時候，他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電，就是火力發電，還有中鋼、林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的500大碳排放源，我們就占了幾個？中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電；今年COP28，我們臺灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善，還更退步。所以能源政策其實是關係到我們2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點，如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或天然氣，一直沒有辦法減少，我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚。這些都是全球500大碳排最多的，全球500大在我們臺灣，然後你說我們做得多好，這個我們慢慢來討論，有必要整體檢討我們的能源政策，尤其是電，因為電是源頭，你產生電才能讓企業運轉，你即使把汽車全部改成電動汽車，不直接排二氧化碳，但是如果你用的電是火力發電，這些在路上跑的汽車、電車用的還是火力產生的能源，那個源頭我們要好好來探討。今天因為時間的關係，以後我們再找時間探討，等一下我們要去朝野協商。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，有請邱泰源委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.16534375,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.941593750000001,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.207218750000001,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.480343750000003,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.872218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.46284375,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.95221875,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.20096875,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.69034375,"end":20.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.23034375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.293468750000002,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.70659375,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.782218750000002,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.71034375,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.68909375,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.207843750000002,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.950343750000002,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.996593750000002,"end":33.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.96659375,"end":35.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.49784375,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.556593750000005,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.43409375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.39596875,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.72471875,"end":45.002843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.85096875,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.33159375,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.40284375,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.38159375,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.541593750000004,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.60471875,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.65534375,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.67034375,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.86409375000001,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.26471875,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.94784375,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.85846875,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.46534375,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.30471875,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.73909375000001,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.27471875,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.36721875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.31221875,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.51846875000001,"end":97.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.83471875000001,"end":96.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.88909375,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.69409375000001,"end":117.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.32471875,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.51346875,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.39096875000001,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.58346875,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.19909375,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.69596875000002,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148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這個就各有各的這個"},{"start":284.15,"end":292.81,"text":"指標它採樣的指標的不同不過還是因為這個是叫做德國看守"},{"start":294.397,"end":314.468,"text":"的一個NGO每年我知道一個NGO他CCPI每年都會評但是大家也都會參考所以還是注意一下看他用什麼樣的評你剛剛有做了一部分的解釋不過針對這幾項我們把它拿出來看就是針對"},{"start":321.584,"end":343.708,"text":"整體表現 這個我們就不講因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來的然後我們看它的內容臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評非常差的是能源使用"},{"start":352.202,"end":371.702,"text":"這部分我覺得啊是有值得我們檢討的你知道我們現在的能源的發電的組合火力發電佔多少火力發電裡面當然有燃煤、燃氣大概各自相近40%左右嘛所以佔八成啊是"},{"start":372.537,"end":390.364,"text":"可是我們在再生能源已經從幾乎大概1、2%到現在已經10%了我想這個成長速率大概在國際上排名應該是前段班啦火力發電的降低比例做得不好"},{"start":391.766,"end":405.464,"text":"我們先從用天然氣來期待煤我們能源都是以進口為主所以各位應該也都知道天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源"},{"start":406.636,"end":427.618,"text":"他會排什麼?他會排哪一些?氣體?二氧化碳也是氣體會,但是他的排...他也是化石原料嘛!是!沒錯!但是他的量...大家都要減少化石原料的使用嘛!所以這一次的COP他為什麼不敢直接講說Face out fossil fuel?"},{"start":428.198,"end":447.063,"text":"你看他也是自己最後必須因為有人反對阿阿拉伯國家反對阿為什麼會反對就是因為他不實際因為他生產石油阿為什麼反對難道你要幫他講話嗎因為我們沒有生產石油這是趨勢嘛這是趨勢嘛"},{"start":458.308,"end":466.611,"text":"阿你要幫他們講話說 因為這個沒有通過大家的共識不是幫他們講話啦 因為我們也沒有生產食用 對啊我們要有自己的 是 沒錯 達到2050我們要對自己有信心啦 能夠淨零碳排阿你的 欸 能源那一塊是最主要的啦好啦 我提供幾個 好"},{"start":482.53,"end":507.577,"text":"這個二十七的時候他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電就火力發電火力發電還有中鋼林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的五百個碳排放源全球最髒的五百大"},{"start":508.871,"end":524.202,"text":"我們就佔了幾個中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電今年COP28我們台灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善還更退步所以這個齁這個這個能源政策齁其實關係到我們整個"},{"start":537.819,"end":562.296,"text":"這個2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點就在能源政策了如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或是天然氣一直沒有辦法減少我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚啦那個都是全球500大排碳排最多的500大在我們台灣你說我們做得多好"},{"start":568.179,"end":580.848,"text":"有必要 這個我們慢慢來討論有必要整體檢討我們的能源尤其是電因為電是源頭啦你產生電才能讓企業"},{"start":585.754,"end":606.162,"text":"運轉讓汽車你即使全部改把它改成電動汽車不直接排碳二氧化碳但是你用的電如果是火力發電這些在路上跑的汽車電車用的還是火力的東西火力的能源所以那個源頭我們要好好的來探討"},{"start":607.284,"end":618.18,"text":"好今天時間的關係以後我們再找時間探討等一下我們要去草野協商了好謝謝林委員好謝謝謝謝林委員有請邱太元邱委員"}]}},{"id":"149023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3bdc7fe97080a56eba8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a03227ec09d647ab4e3bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"09:45:19 - 09:57:55","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":756,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:57:55+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（9時45分）謝謝主席。我要先請經濟部曾次長，還有環境部薛部長以及農業部王玉真王副司長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請行政單位。"],["吳委員玉琴：曾次長，我先請教你，因為有關經濟部的議題，這次COP第28次締約大會針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個共識，裡面有幾項要跟經濟部討論一下，因為接下來這樣一個目標，檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是難度有沒有很高，剛剛其實洪申翰委員也有稍微提到，比如說COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長3倍，增至3倍，如果照我們現在的情形來講，臺灣的再生能源現在大概占整個總發電量的8.26%，如果在2030年……"],["曾次長文生：2022年。"],["吳委員玉琴：2022年的時候，接下來到2030年如果要成長3倍，我大概估算總電量增加2%，然後再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右，如果這樣估算應該是合理。其實我們從2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面，再生能源要達到60%到70%，但因為我們沒有一個中間的目標值，經濟部在估算過程中應該是循序漸進的成長，我們2030年要達到24.8%這個目標可行嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，就是兩個部分，第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8%，國發會的規劃是要能源部門做到27%。"],["吳委員玉琴：27%？"],["曾次長文生：到30%。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以比這個要求還更高。"],["曾次長文生：所以是會比這個量還更高。第二個部分跟委員報告，這次COP28在計算的時候是算裝置容量。"],["吳委員玉琴：裝置容量！所以不是發電？"],["曾次長文生：我們的裝置容量到2030年依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過3倍的，我們現在規劃起來的量，以2022年大概14個giga來做基礎的話，我們到2030年會超過40個giga是目標值。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：是目標，我們會超過40個giga，所以，以這一個要求來講，再生能源裝置容量成長3倍，或是委員提的這一頁簡報，就是發電量要比2022年成長3倍，都是我們的目標，我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。就能源的配置上面，這個再生能源是我們現在的風力發電─陸上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電，有沒有地熱？在整個發展裡面。"],["曾次長文生：地熱這部分，我們大概有三個重要的目標，第一個就是加速speed up，然後scale up，這是既有的一些技術，另外一個是diversify，就是要讓它更多元化。除了風跟光以外，地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源，當然也會配合水力。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔，還有水力的部分。謝謝。","接下來也要請教您一下，煤電減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題，在這次COP28也談到應該要去發展所謂的碳捕捉負排放（CCUS）技術，在這樣一個技術裡面，請問，如果我們真的在2050年要吸收4,020萬公噸的二氧化碳，我們辦公室在估算二氧化碳透過這樣一個碳捕捉技術把它抓下來，我要問的是這個量應該很大吧？未來怎麼儲存？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，這次跟化石燃料有關的，從phase out一路改變成transition away，其實化石燃料也有不同的類型，燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的，其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出，當然它必須配合CCS，它必須配合CCS，就是碳捕捉封存或是碳捕捉再利用，碳捕捉封存再利用這裡面算到了4,000萬噸……"],["吳委員玉琴：這是您的報告裡面提到的？"],["曾次長文生：對，這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：這個CCS現在正在發展中，有幾個事情，我們現在跟國科會合作的相關項目包含國內的地質學者，事實上臺灣西岸有一些適合的地層能夠來做碳的封存，但是現在捕捉的技術要跟全世界一起合作，因為碳的封存、碳的捕捉跟脫附然後再封存，這中間怎麼能夠提升它的捕捉效率，這是重要的工作。"],["吳委員玉琴：也就是說2050年，我們的碳捕捉技術可能還會不斷精進。"],["曾次長文生：其實這幾年包括國際上很多的大公司都在做這一塊。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，我問的是這些固化的二氧化碳捕捉下來了會變成碳酸鈣嘛，那這些的儲存，你剛剛也提到西部有地方可以放，因為我在估算量的時候，其實它大概每4年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101耶！所以這個量蠻大的，關於去化等等，你們有在思考這個問題嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，因為它地質上面的尺度，如果可以的話，我們其實應該找專門的學者來，我只是聽他們的說明之後轉述，我怕有點不精準。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["曾次長文生：但他們現在估算出來的量遠高於此，因為這個是1年0.4億噸，他們算出來的……"],["吳委員玉琴：更高？"],["曾次長文生：對，是比這個還要高的，而且它是打到海水底下的鹽水層，他們有一些他們的作法，我覺得很多技術細節，如果在這邊講……"],["吳委員玉琴：是，瞭解。"],["曾次長文生：我不是專家，我怕講錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：到2050年其實有很多技術還有很多的課題要面對，我想我們政府以及剛剛聽曾次長這樣講是有在思考的，不是完全沒有去想這些事。"],["曾次長文生：常常在討論這些問題。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝，我知道這個技術還是有很多要討論的。","接下來要問有關這一次在COP 28裡面提到甲烷要清零，這要問農業部跟環境部，我們知道在2023年國家排放清冊裡面有記載甲烷的排放，2021年甲烷的排放大概是445萬噸左右二氧化碳當量，這樣的情形之下，其實農業大概占了188萬噸，廢棄物大概占了180萬噸。如果到2030年要甲烷淨零，畜牧業部分，因為最主要的甲烷大概就是畜牧業還有廢棄物，請問農業部跟環境部有什麼想法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟吳委員報告，有關廢棄物的部分，我們已經在推動厭氧發酵產生沼氣，這已經有一些示範的場域，未來會持續。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以2030年要清零，有沒有問題？因為他的目標也是2030年甲烷要清零。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，我們的廢棄物最主要來自掩埋場，掩埋有機物造成甲烷……"],["吳委員玉琴：還有污水場啊！"],["顏署長旭明：對，還有污水場的污泥。在掩埋場部分，目前我們的掩埋場有48座，封閉之後設置太陽能，這是中和的部分；沼氣發電在短期之內，如果能夠負極的，我們會發電，比較沒有辦法負極的，我們是破壞做沼氣收集。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["顏署長旭明：所以目前以高峰相比的話，整個掩埋場的甲烷排放量已經降到以前的10%左右，只剩下10%，我們會依上述的講法來做中和跟解除。"],["吳委員玉琴：有一個目標值，我們再來努力嘛！"],["顏署長旭明：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：農業部因為畜牧要養豬、養牛，這好像很難，你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個？"],["王副司長玉真：是，簡單跟委員報告，我們在畜牧產業的部分，除了我們積極推動禽畜糞尿的資源化處理，所有的家禽、家畜，包括最重要的……"],["吳委員玉琴：你們也是用厭氧發酵來發電嗎？"],["王副司長玉真：豬隻的部分的話，是。而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上在做沼氣的再利用。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，所以也是朝這個目標來解決啦！"],["王副司長玉真：有、有、有，謝謝。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，謝謝。最後我要問環境部，給你一點時間來回應氣候變遷保護績效CCPI對我們臺灣的評價，說我們的排名倒數第7；或是我們溫室氣體排放排名倒數第4；再生能源所占比例好像也太低；且能源耗用與節能也表現很差。我們有那麼差嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤，跟整個COP28締約方大家追求的方向完全相反，舉個例子而言，菲律賓跟印度竟然排名第6名跟第7名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了6、70%，而且還在增加燃煤發電廠。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯。"],["薛部長富盛：所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知，更何況在2030年我們臺灣人均每個人一年只能排放2.7噸，結果菲律賓、印度每個人可以排放到7噸到8噸，同樣是人，為什麼他們會那麼高？"],["吳委員玉琴：對，為什麼會這樣計算？"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論、不用花時間去討論。"],["吳委員玉琴：喔！是。"],["薛部長富盛：我們國內也有學者發表文章來反駁這個CCPI。"],["吳委員玉琴：是，雖然部長這樣講，可是當國際NGO來對我們這樣的評價，其實對我們來講國際形象還是有傷的啊！"],["薛部長富盛：給委員報告，聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心，它的評比在210個國家裡面，我們是排第45名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是、是。"],["薛部長富盛：那個才是根據減碳量的表現，所以在210個國家裡面我們排第45名，我們是屬於前段班的。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：這個CCPI它才選67個國家，去年選63個國家，今年選67個國家，那麼在我們後面的國家還包括韓國、加拿大，美國跟日本也大概跟我們都一樣排在第5、60名。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：所以我個人覺得就是，我們國內應該對自己的國家有信心，對於排碳的努力，雖然我們還沒有達到完美的境界，但是我們一直朝這個方向努力，應該給大家肯定。當然我們在政策方面，事實上CCPI也對我們國家的政策肯定，我們在政策的部分排名第24啊！"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["薛部長富盛：它是排碳量這一部分把我們排到很後面，因為它的方法根本就是錯誤的嘛！所以大概是這樣子。"],["吳委員玉琴：嗯、好，所以說有機會讓部長能夠說明。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：因為我看到這個對我們評價這麼差，我們也有點嚇一跳啦！雖然我們這幾年真的是很努力在法制跟政策方面……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員玉琴：都已經朝2050年淨零排放的一個目標在努力，所以我們還是持續來努力。"],["薛部長富盛：是，好，謝謝吳委員！"],["吳委員玉琴：謝謝部長、謝謝次長！"],["主席：謝謝，有請林為洲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.66659375,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.543468750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.230968750000002,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.504718750000002,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.586593750000006,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.15159375,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.17846875000001,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.63659375,"end":124.48409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.88909375,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.78159375,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.89784375000002,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.94846875000002,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.86784375000002,"end":156.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.10346875000002,"end":167.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.04346875000002,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.76909375,"end":164.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.50284375,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.11034375,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.34909375,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.39971875,"end":190.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.33096875,"end":186.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.66409375,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.21221875,"end":190.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.35971875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.44409375,"end":191.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.01721875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.91159375,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.45971875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.60721875000002,"end":249.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":253.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.05096875,"end":251.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.62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我們會超過40個Giga所以以這一個要求來講再生能源、裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電、海上風電、地面光電、屋頂光電有沒有地熱"},{"start":180.281,"end":198.881,"text":"我們大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利"},{"start":200.057,"end":208.059,"text":"好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的"},{"start":219.782,"end":219.802,"text":"致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":243.873,"end":268.371,"text":"淡捕捉的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?這次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯的位其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的"},{"start":269.071,"end":286.484,"text":"那其實這一次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳補桌封存或是碳補桌再利用那碳補桌封存再利用這裡面算到了這個這個四千萬噸這是你們的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的"},{"start":290.927,"end":312.539,"text":"這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術"},{"start":313.781,"end":333.698,"text":"現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊"},{"start":334.338,"end":352.06,"text":"我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101"},{"start":353.542,"end":383.062,"text":"所以這個量蠻大的所以去化或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員包括因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高"},{"start":385.362,"end":408.427,"text":"對,是比這個還要高的,而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法,我覺得那個很多技術細節,如果在這裡講...是,了解,因為我覺得到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對,我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的,不是完全沒有去想這些事"},{"start":410.147,"end":433.77,"text":"好謝謝我知道因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放在我們的2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445"},{"start":436.773,"end":444.78,"text":"二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的"},{"start":453.969,"end":454.169,"text":"甲碗淨零"},{"start":485.177,"end":507.2,"text":"跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分"},{"start":507.72,"end":507.86,"text":"中央會議中央會議"},{"start":527.763,"end":544.735,"text":"剩下百分之十我們會依上述的講法來做一個綜合跟有一個目標值我們就再去來努力嘛那農業部這邊因為農畜牧我們要養豬啦養牛啦這個好像很難你們的目標或是你們怎麼處理這個"},{"start":546.456,"end":564.901,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家畜那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用"},{"start":565.822,"end":575.532,"text":"是所以也是朝這個目標解決有有有好謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們臺灣的評價說我們告訴第七"},{"start":584.348,"end":610.104,"text":"或是我們衛生氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低那能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反"},{"start":610.984,"end":634.256,"text":"舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年"},{"start":637.117,"end":644.486,"text":"結果菲律賓、印度他可以排到七頓到八頓為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI"},{"start":658.221,"end":685.196,"text":"雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的啊聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的"},{"start":686.697,"end":688.919,"text":"新冠肺炎疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗疫苗"},{"start":711.218,"end":712.059,"text":"國際合作發展基金會主席"},{"start":727.71,"end":728.01,"text":"有請林維洲、林委員"}]}},{"id":"149022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c35e64c62bff11918ca8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a032299b491e425fd1a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:34:24 - 09:45:11","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":647,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:45:11+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:34:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時34分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。部長跟幾位委員有實地到COP28的現場去看過，確實帶回了很多第一手的資料，所以剛剛洪委員講的，我其實很想說，洪委員講的我們都贊成，我們直接簽連署，請部長直接照做。不過有一些細節的部分，確實還可以請部長再多說明一點，比如說，剛剛說到這個決議的部分，洪委員剛剛提到了，因為這樣的一個會議開下來，在不同的時間當中，也有各種不同的團體、不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送，但是我們必須說，COP 28的結論應該只有一個吧！應該只有一個。我這樣問好了，部長，這次的會議到底有沒有結論？"],["薛部長富盛：有，事實上，他們有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有結論嘛！所以結論是在什麼時候發出？昨天嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午最後一個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不用啦！部長，這個問題很簡單，有沒有結論？有嘛！這個結論是什麼時候發出的？"],["薛部長富盛：昨天下午。"],["蘇委員巧慧：昨天嘛！所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：那個都是倡議而已。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都是倡議而已嘛！所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且就是現在我的投影片列出來的，也是你剛剛報告的，昨天發出的這個才是這一次、本屆、今年COP 28的結論，可以這樣說嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想請問你，也請你簡短的回答，你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候，我們有提到國內有人直接在12月5日的時候就已經把某一次的倡議變成COP 28會議的結論，然後大肆宣揚，這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度。我們回到前一頁，部長，我想請你在備詢臺上面再次的說明，在COP 28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼？它的比重還有談論到的狀況是如何？請你簡單說明一下。"],["薛部長富盛：是的，事實上，我在看到國內這個報導之後，我馬上接受媒體的聯訪，我表達得非常清楚，現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我想先請問你的是，COP 28的結論當中提到核能的比重有多少，並且它是把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況？"],["薛部長富盛：在倡議裡面是希望2050年……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那是倡議，我現在問的是結論。"],["薛部長富盛：結論沒有啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：結論有啦！結論還是有啦！在結論當中，它是在加快零排放和低排放技術的發展這一項當中，確實有把核能放進去。"],["薛部長富盛：就是（e）的這個部分，有把核能列進去。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們就事論事嘛！它有把核能放進去，在加快零排放及低排放技術的發展這一項當中有列了進去，但是這就表示它把核能列為綠電嗎？其實也不盡然嘛！但是它確實表示這是可能降低碳排的技術之一，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我們必須說，其實在整個COP 28的大會結論當中有提到核能，沒有錯，但是其實是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是並不是前面所講的在22個國家提出的倡議當中說我們全世界就是應該要用三倍速的方向來發展核能，完全沒有這件事情嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，完全沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全沒有這件事情嘛！在結論跟倡議不一樣的狀況之下，在結論當中，我們甚至也沒有倡議這樣的內容，你以一個參與過這次會議的部長的身分，應該是可以在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍速的發展，完全沒有這個結論，但是核能在某些國家可以變成再生能源，甚至配合那些國家自己的環境去發展。"],["蘇委員巧慧：配合它的條件嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，每個國家的情況都不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那麼現在就回來看，當COP 28有這樣的結論之後，又必須要適應每一個國家不同的條件，就是你現在所說的這樣嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，你在之前的言論當中有說到，對臺灣來講，核能的發展是一個假議題，你可不可以在這裡再一次表示「核能的發展是假議題」這句話是什麼意思？其實你也有前提啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你也有前提啊！我都還從報紙上幫你剪了這個報導。"],["薛部長富盛：是，必須在三個前提獲得確保之後，臺灣再去發展核電，我相信到那時候大家是可以接受的，那我們並不是說因為沒有把它列入我們未來發展的方向就忽略掉核能，事實上，我們很多學術研究單位持續關注核能的研發技術。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是哪三個條件？"],["薛部長富盛：第一個是確保核能的安全，第二個是核廢料獲得妥善的處理，第三個是有全民共識，我想這三個應該大家是可以接受的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這三個當中最難的其實就是你這次說的核廢未解決，所以談核電是假議題嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼會這樣講的原因是，因為現在在發展核電的國家當中，我們必須說，其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的國家。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：在這些國家當中，其實很大一個條件，大部分就是地廣人稀，它有一個空間可以去處理核廢，偏偏臺灣的狀況就是地狹人稠，恰恰相反，所以從過去到現在來講，甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政，沒有一個中央政府……"],["薛部長富盛：沒有一個縣市願意去……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前，其實你核電技術再怎麼發展，除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料，或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的，科學檢測它也是安全的，我現在說的是核廢料，還不是核能發電而已，在這樣的狀況下才有空間，臺灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分，對不對？所以部長，我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚，一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼，另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電，而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料，所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣，不停地、不停地對全國來做一個宣達，也就是全國人民要認知到的是，我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是，到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐、有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場，就是這樣子而已嘛！其他的技術都是另外的問題，所以在這樣的狀況下，部長，我再一次地說，其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要，所以這一題如此。","另外一個題目，我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是，您剛剛在在的說，氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的重要結論之一，臺灣也表示我們願意參與，甚至是先行參與這個基金的建置，以至於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向，我想請你簡短地回答，請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助、捐助多少、何時捐、預算來源、想要達到什麼樣的效果？這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋，請你現在解釋。"],["薛部長富盛：我先講一個案例，就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到，今年7月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋4個友邦國家，包括帛琉、諾魯、馬紹爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund，我們臺灣已經提供1,000萬美元去做那個基金，所以同樣我對媒體也講過，假如我們能夠實際參與COP的締約國大會，那臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任，我們來捐，當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高層次……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我想大家都會更想要知道我們這個預算是從哪一個部門、哪一個項目出來，另外，這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼，比如說，你剛剛說我們已經跟這4個國家有過這樣子的一個基金，變成一個團體，那麼請問一下，這次在大會當中，他們對我們的態度如何？"],["薛部長富盛：非常正面，他們在聯合國氣候大會裡面為我們發聲，覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們為什麼當時選擇這4個國家？"],["薛部長富盛：因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重，我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦，他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金，所以事實上反應很正面，我昨天也跟院長、跟外交部……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是嘛！所以這是一個正向的發展，因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣，都是屬於海島型國家。"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都是面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家，而在這些條件的國家當中，臺灣是屬於比較有能力的國家，所以我們率先出來，這等於是Taiwan can help再一次的證明。在這樣的狀況之下，我們果然因此收穫了善意的循環，所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲，我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去。我想部長，因為它確實是動用了國家的預算，所以其他的委員一定會繼續地追問你成效如何，我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用核能的這一題，你念經也好，你就是一樣的東西一直講，一定要說到大家都能夠懂。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都能夠耳熟能詳，大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般，你才有可能得到追隨者嘛！所以在這裡我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：繼續傳達，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝蘇委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。有請吳玉琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.50659375,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.083468750000002,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.27909375,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.71846875000001,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.40971875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.16846875,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.31159375,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.34909375000001,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.45034375,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.55159375000001,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.65284375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.23471875,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.00659375000001,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.69784375,"end":80.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.33409375000001,"end":86.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.84409375,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.96909375,"end":99.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.65096875,"end":125.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.74534375,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.79971875,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.23846875,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.32159375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.96659375000002,"end":171.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.29096875000002,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.96034375000002,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.63596875000002,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.03846875000002,"end":249.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.19034375,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.22409375,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.24096875,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.76409375000003,"end":249.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.79784375000003,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.64159375000003,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.65846875000003,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.55221875,"end":259.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.85534375000003,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.09909375,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.95534375,"end":270.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.68909375000004,"end":292.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.14784375,"end":278.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.91971875,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.74471875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.44471875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.03534375000004,"end":301.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.11971875,"end":296.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.97534375000004,"end":303.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.15221875000003,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.77846875,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.88784375,"end":324.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":331.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.16909375,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.82909375,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.02721875000003,"end":348.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.13221875000005,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長好 蘇委員好部長好那部長跟幾位委員有實地到這個COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成啦我們直接簽連署啦請部長直接照做"},{"start":32.918,"end":57.792,"text":"不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧"},{"start":60.453,"end":60.834,"text":"昨天下午最後一個"},{"start":73.257,"end":97.703,"text":"不用啦部長這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛有嘛什麼時候發出的這個結論昨天下午啊昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論對吧不是那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好那部長"},{"start":101.104,"end":125.452,"text":"部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜"},{"start":127.089,"end":147.004,"text":"我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼它的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪"},{"start":149.005,"end":167.402,"text":"我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對臺灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論結論沒有啊"},{"start":172.767,"end":190.714,"text":"結論有啦結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這個當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個"},{"start":192.274,"end":211.645,"text":"加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但"},{"start":216.127,"end":233.261,"text":"它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對"},{"start":234.062,"end":249.18,"text":"完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧"},{"start":249.881,"end":265.448,"text":"是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它"},{"start":266.208,"end":291.794,"text":"配合他自己國家的環境配合他的條件嘛對不對對每個國家情況都不一樣那麼現在這樣就回來是當COP28有這樣的結論之後又必須要適應的是每一個國家不同的條件就是你現在這樣說的嘛好所以部長你在之前的言論當中你有說到對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思"},{"start":292.794,"end":314.703,"text":"其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊連報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能"},{"start":315.183,"end":337.262,"text":"事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題"},{"start":338.423,"end":357.661,"text":"為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人叢恰恰相反"},{"start":363.166,"end":383.897,"text":"所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料"},{"start":384.597,"end":405.9,"text":"或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼"},{"start":406.44,"end":427.825,"text":"另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐"},{"start":430.026,"end":441.957,"text":"有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以"},{"start":448.342,"end":464.407,"text":"這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制"},{"start":465.467,"end":489.739,"text":"以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年七月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋"},{"start":490.479,"end":516.751,"text":"四個有幫國家包括柏流、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會"},{"start":518.452,"end":537.421,"text":"臺灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來"},{"start":538.041,"end":561.846,"text":"那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何我非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家"},{"start":563.866,"end":578.356,"text":"因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上環境很正面我昨天跟院長跟外交部"},{"start":579.176,"end":599.433,"text":"所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛"},{"start":599.873,"end":605.477,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講"},{"start":626.332,"end":641.605,"text":"一定要說到大家都能夠懂大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點繼續傳達 謝謝部長好 謝謝蘇偉仁好 謝謝謝謝蘇偉仁 有請吳益勤委員"}]}},{"id":"149021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/60e87dad815fd5c3d57bfbf4381f71cba8fa0c68b4c214c5c986728e607a0322b68fd153a217bd045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"09:21:59 - 09:34:14","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"date":"2023-12-14","duration":735,"end_time":"2023-12-14T09:34:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-14T09:21:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（9時22分）請薛部長、李次長還有曾次長。"],["主席：有請行政單位官員們，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好、兩位次長好。這一次COP28經歷了二個禮拜的相關會議，每年都是國際上氣候變遷討論最重要的盛事之一，在這兩個禮拜裡面，當然有很多重要的討論跟波折，一直到昨天，甚至到昨天的深夜，最後的共識其實才做了產出，我想大家其實都有盯到最後一刻。","我想先問一個事情，其實在第一週的談判、在進行第一週會議的時間裡面，我覺得臺灣媒體做了滿多報導的一個事情，就是好像有20幾個國家，他們發出了所謂2050會增三倍核能的倡議，就部長的瞭解，這個事情是這個大會最後的結論跟共識嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，事實上沒有得到共識，因為其他有共識的都將近有200個國家；剛剛洪委員提到的才22個，而且那22個大部分都是本身在核能發展以及產業方面，事實上也算相當成熟的，他們使用的比例很高。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們看到那幾天媒體報出來以後，我們有幾位在野黨的總統候選人都非常非常興奮，甚至直接把它寫成說，這是COP28的共識，我想這並不是一個事實。","接下來我想請問曾次長，我想大家其實已經看到，甚至現在有人把它定名為叫做UAE共識、阿聯酋共識。在阿聯酋共識裡面，我們看到在這一次的談判裡面最清楚跟最具體的一個條文，其實就在於2030年以前要將再生能源裝置量提升三倍，以及每年平均的能源效率提升兩倍。在這一段時間中，這個想法的提出並不只是在最後，包括在一開始會議的時候就有提出來，我想這部分經濟部有沒有做一些相關的幕僚作業跟討論？"],["曾次長文生：謝謝委員。其實除了具體承諾跟能源有關，大概這兩點是最重要的結論，除了這個以外，其實一些具體的作法，包括要讓供應鏈更有韌性等等，很多，還有包括協助開發中國家，這些相關工作其實我們都有把它整理起來。我簡單講兩個事情：第一個，有關於再生能源的部分，我們是要把現在成熟的再生能源能夠加速，也讓它加量，除了這個以外，我們要更多元化的來發展再生能源，這個是臺灣現在政策正在推動的工作，我們也希望能夠把再生能源的裝置儘快地再提升。除此之外，第二個有關於委員提到能效的部分，能效的部分大概簡單來講就是希望全球的年均能源效率改善目標能夠從2%提升到4%，它的計算方法是用初級能源的供給去除以GDP……"],["洪委員申翰：次長，因為時間有限，我可能要打斷……"],["曾次長文生：好，那我簡單講，委員，從2016年到2022年，臺灣初級能源的能源密集度年均改善達4.2%，過去這幾年我們改善的量是比它要求的4%再多一點。"],["洪委員申翰：好，次長，那我就更具體問下面一個問題。很多媒體都關注在這一次COP28的結論之後，像這個最重要的再生能源三倍、能效兩倍，我們能不能夠針對這個結論再做臺灣國內政策加碼的承諾？也就是順應國際上再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍來作為我們2030年再生能源跟能效的目標，這部分我們有沒有辦法順應這個再做加碼的承諾？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，如果它的基礎年是用2022年來做，我們到2030年平均來講，我們的光電目前規劃的量是能夠達到三倍，風電的量也應該會有2022年的裝置容量的三倍，所以在裝置容量的增加上是可以達成目標的。"],["洪委員申翰：所以再生能源三倍是可以承諾的？"],["曾次長文生：是會達成目標的。"],["洪委員申翰：是會達成的？好。"],["曾次長文生：依照我們現在的規劃，除了這個以外，第二個部分有關能源效率，就是初級能源供給的密集度這一塊，我們去年年均的改善是4.2%，今年預估可能會有機會超過6%，就是供給量，我們使用量下降了，GDP成長了，所以我們改善率是還不錯，我們也希望2030年這個改善4 %的目標能夠達成，年均改善4%。"],["洪委員申翰：我更簡單的說，現在我們臺灣的政府也再次承諾了順應目前COP28的共識結論，相較於2022年，再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍這件事情我們是可以承諾的，這沒問題的，對不對？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，我剛才的說明是要講過去這幾年其實我們就順著這個軌跡在做，我們看到的現象……"],["洪委員申翰：也就是說我們就在這個軌跡上面……"],["曾次長文生：對。"],["洪委員申翰：我們其實就是在這個方向上面，所以這個承諾是我們可以承諾的事情，這是第一點……"],["曾次長文生：我們希望這個軌跡能夠繼續順利的往上走，就是朝著這一個比率繼續改善。"],["洪委員申翰：好，我覺得這個部分很重要，這當然也代表了國內的政策其實跟國際上是很清楚接軌的，並沒有所謂違逆國際的趨勢跟方向，這是第一點。","下面一個問題，次長，我要問的是，在這次會議裡面我們發現有很多包括歐洲的國家，因為烏俄戰爭的原因，他們其實都花了很多力氣在提升能源效率的部分，當然臺灣看起來，因為我們能源價格的變動沒有人家高，所以我想問次長的是，現在經濟部有沒有對於各國，尤其是對提升能源效率的這些新作法有密切的、高度的掌握？"],["曾次長文生：有關這個部分，委員的建議就是我們來做「前瞻技術追蹤平台」，其實我們平常都在追啦，但是沒有把它集合起來成為一個平台提供給大家參考，我來要求能源署，我們一起來做相關的工作。"],["洪委員申翰：次長，這個問題其實我是想要接下一個問題，但我現在想要請薛部長。部長，我要問你，你覺得我們達成2050淨零排放目標有辦法只靠自己嗎？你覺得可以只靠自己嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：需要國內跨部會跟產業，當然……"],["洪委員申翰：我說的不是環境部，我說的是臺灣自己。"],["薛部長富盛：臺灣自己……"],["洪委員申翰：可以只靠自己就達成嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：應該要跟大家合作。"],["洪委員申翰：需要跟大家合作，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我這次去其實很明顯的知道，我們的淨零排放這件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己，我們需要靠大量的國際合作。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你覺得現在臺灣正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作，足夠我們達成剛才所說2050的淨零排放的工作嗎？我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作。"],["洪委員申翰：需要擴大嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是，絕對要擴大。"],["洪委員申翰：部長說的好。因為我的時間有限，部長，我自己有一個具體的建議，我認為我們臺灣就氣候或者是淨零來說，我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性。我提一件事情，其實我們有很多友邦國家是太平洋的島國，每一次在氣候談判裡面都是非常重要也非常受矚目的所謂小島國家的聯盟，可是我們對於這些友邦，就我自己的觀察，我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的、甚至是更具戰略意義的合作關係，甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲，他們每一次在氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：也是我們最好的合作對象，但我說實話，我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的瞭解跟掌握，我自己這次去完以後，我覺得還不夠高……"],["薛部長富盛：給洪委員報告……"],["洪委員申翰：所以我覺得我們需要更多系統性的戰略合作，這是我想提的第一點建議。"],["薛部長富盛：是。好。"],["洪委員申翰：第二點就是剛剛跟次長講到的問題，我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型，我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術、前瞻的技術，現在到底發展到最前沿的是哪幾個國家、哪幾個企業、哪幾個公司、哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的demo，我們需要知道這件事情，所以我覺得我們應該在國際合作的概念之下，有一個最新的、具前瞻技術的追蹤平臺，這部分可能是經濟部應該可以扮演很多角色，可能不只是能效，包括再生能源、包括氫能，所有只要更新的技術的話，我們都不排斥，我們都必須密切追蹤，甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術，我們也該追蹤，這我都同意。","再來一個事情是，我們的發展機制，包括一些規範性的機制，尤其像我知道，現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM歐盟的碳邊境調整，可是大家現在只關注這個階段，那請問下個階段呢？下個階段其實也在討論中，可是我想就環境部來說，你們對於歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAM目前掌握度到什麼程度？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上不只歐盟，包括我們跟美國、新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸。另外，我針對剛剛洪委員特別講到的中間這個部分，事實上李次長或許也可以講，今年7月份外交部就已經跟4個太平洋友邦……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，對不起，因為時間有限。我自己真的覺得其實在環境部或國發會應該直接來帶領一個國際合作的專案，這個國際合作專案應該包括前瞻技術、包括小島國家的合作，也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步發展，我覺得這件事情可能拼湊起來對於臺灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面，跟國際上面的連結，我覺得我們需要做這個事情。","最後我要提醒一點，我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的，我們要參與聯合國比較困難，我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的國際合作的參與平臺，這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分，我這邊其實有列了一些是在聯合國以外的參與機制，我希望可以請部長再帶回去討論，哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與，而不只是說因為我們不是UN的締約國……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題，其實在其他地方，我們可以有很好的發揮。以上種種建議，部長，可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟龔主委、跟陳院長來討論，這是我們應該做的事情，部長，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。給洪委員報告，昨天下午就已經跟陳院長報告過了，事實上剛剛洪委員講的這個部分都有cover在內。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們希望你們的討論有一個好的結果，那看可不可以在一個月後給我們相關的規劃的訊息，可以嗎？一個月後。"],["薛部長富盛：一個月？可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝洪委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員，下一位請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-15","speakers":["吳欣盈","洪申翰","蘇巧慧","吳玉琴","林為洲","邱泰源","黃秀芳","陳椒華","徐志榮","張育美","陳瑩","王婉諭","賴惠員","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":393,"meetingDate":["2023-12-14"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委\n員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候\n變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.83534375,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.079093750000002,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.79034375,"end":30.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.27096875,"end":30.304718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":37.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.86471875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.42096875,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":60.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.11471875,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.148468750000006,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.915968750000005,"end":69.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.23096875,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.48784375000001,"end":81.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.84846875000001,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.79721875,"end":99.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.50909375,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.35659375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.12846875000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.46159375,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.76096875,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.02221875000001,"end":114.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.07659375,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.91596875,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.29534375,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要跟大家合作啦需要跟大家合作對不對部長我這次其實去很明顯知道我們的淨零排放的這一件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己我們其實靠大量的國際合作下一張所以部長你覺得我們現在臺灣我們正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作足夠我們達成剛才說2050的排放這個淨零排放的這樣子的工作嗎我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎"},{"start":482.287,"end":491.606,"text":"我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作需要擴大嘛部長說了那再往下我想到後面因為我時間上面有一些有限到最後一張"},{"start":493.435,"end":516.129,"text":"前面一張部長我自己有個具體的建議我認為就台灣我們就氣候或者是近鄰來說我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性我提一件事情其實我們有很多的友邦國家在太平洋他們是太平洋的島國其實都是每一次在氣候談判裡面非常重要也非常受阻力的所謂小島國家的聯盟"},{"start":516.849,"end":540.789,"text":"可是我們對於這些我自己也觀察我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的甚至更具戰略意義的這個合作的關係甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲他們每次在這個氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音那也是我們最好合作的對象但我說實話我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的了解跟掌握我自己這次去完以後我覺得還不夠高"},{"start":542.091,"end":549.551,"text":"所以我覺得我們需要跟這系統性的戰略合作這是我想提的第一點的建議第二點就是剛剛跟次長在講到的問題"},{"start":551.192,"end":576.515,"text":"我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術前瞻的技術現在到底發展到最前緣是哪幾個國家哪幾個企業哪幾個公司哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的Demo我們需要知道這件事情所以我覺得我們應該在這個國際合作的概念之下有一個最新的這個前瞻技術的一個追蹤的平臺這部分可能是經濟部其實應該可以扮演很多的角色"},{"start":577.116,"end":597.745,"text":"可能不只是能效包括再生能源包括氫能所有只要跟新的技術有關我們都不排斥我們都必須密切追蹤甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術我們也該追蹤這我都同意再來一個事情是我們的發展的機制包括這些一些規範性的機制尤其像我知道現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM都在討論歐盟的碳邊際調整"},{"start":601.286,"end":613.283,"text":"可是這只是大家現在只關注這個階段阿那請問下個階段呢下個階段其實也在討論中阿可是我想就環境部來說你們對歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAN目前掌握度到什麼程度"},{"start":614.444,"end":637.8,"text":"事實上不只歐盟包括我們跟美國跟新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸另外我針對剛剛洪文特別講到的中間這個部分事實上理事長或許也可以講今年7月份外交部就已經跟四個太平洋友邦部長我這邊就直接對不起因為時間有限我自己覺得我們其實應該在部層或國發會的部分直接應該來帶領一個"},{"start":642.763,"end":655.934,"text":"國際合作的專案這國際合作專案應該包括了前瞻技術包括小島國家的合作也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步的發展我覺得這些事情可能拼湊起來我們對於"},{"start":658.296,"end":672.661,"text":"臺灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面跟國際上面的連結我覺得我們需要一個這個事情最後我要提醒一點我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的我們對聯合國參與比較困難我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的"},{"start":673.341,"end":699.695,"text":"國際合作的參與的平台這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分我這邊其實有列了一些其實是在聯合國以外的參與機制我希望可以請部長再帶回去我們來討論哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與而不只是說因為我們不是E1的締約國所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題其實在其他地方我們可以很好的發揮以上這個建議部長可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟"},{"start":701.616,"end":704.198,"text":"同時與財政部委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":730.204,"end":730.968,"text":"謝宏維 下一位請蘇喬惠 蘇委員"}]}},{"id":"15355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15355","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a04f924cb68922450bad9f551ce5fa921f46d53a332764a53557f311ac99f690a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案」（公務預算部分））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-14","start_time":"2023-12-14T08:30:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121365","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-14T17:18:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":31665,"委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 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環境部部長今天也有所以等到輪到他的時候可能他有會派副部長第三個就是邱國正部長他也因為每一個禮拜四他都會有安排另外的公務所以沒有辦法就是說有請假的我先跟他報告"},{"start":2113.649,"end":2139.751,"text":"那接下來我們就就是總統府我們預算的就是總統府主管的部分那現在是不是我們好 謝謝提問林佳龍 民主黨是什麼公務是普選嗎可不可以講清楚另外環境部部長不來就是不審他去哪裡"},{"start":2143.447,"end":2164.933,"text":"那下午啊 沒關係 那就跳過他是在委員會沒關係 那下午等他吧沒有那回事啊就等他來先把他跳過或者明天他在未還 未還 未還歸未還嘛我這邊時代電影也同意啦沒有那回事啊部長要來那院長 那個民進黨看什麼事吧 講一下"},{"start":2166.869,"end":2191.777,"text":"好來 那不然由副秘書長來報告一下跟曾總召報告那個林秘書長應該有其他的會議但絕對不是輔選 謝謝好吧 那你看吧我還是希望他來我還是希望他來沒有比在立法院尊重由院長協商好吧 跳過 總統跳過院長 我不尊重你"},{"start":2194.185,"end":2195.406,"text":"因為他第一次當部長,他不曉得這個委員會或是這邊審預算"},{"start":2221.639,"end":2229.348,"text":"第一次 第一次 第一次審預算第一次審中央政府總預算總召我來處理 我來處理這個阿連到林佳龍的部分 我覺得說是不是尊重總統府"},{"start":2236.596,"end":2247.479,"text":"因為他們不會直接告訴你說是什麼狀況會議但是他是用消去法不是屬於這個跟政黨選舉的會議他只有五個案啊沒關係那就下午沒關係就等他我不要我就等他"},{"start":2257.633,"end":2283.024,"text":"委員長請院長來猜試一下好了 部長 那個秘書長最好還是到啦好 謝謝他不尊重他不尊重朝野四個黨團公務沒關係 等他那就明天嘛 那就明天好了沒關係 那就明天 等他有空再來"},{"start":2291.048,"end":2306.983,"text":"希望今天早上所有的協商都能夠完成報告院長 其實朝野的氣氛很好不要因為兩個不來真的 這個最基本的預算要結束不來沒關係 我等他明天禮拜六也可以 禮拜天也可以"},{"start":2310.224,"end":2337.75,"text":"我們今天的協商就剩下司法及法治委員會社會福利及衛生環境委員會這個兩個委員會加起來差不多有480案那如果說能夠順利的話今天早上就能夠完全結束了就會讓各部會知道就是說我們希望努力能夠在今天中午之前能夠協商完成來柯總召來柯總召來你講一下講一下來柯總召"},{"start":2339.29,"end":2341.332,"text":"好啦 那就休息啦 休息"},{"start":2367.386,"end":2396.269,"text":"休息休息 休息啦 我們要走囉等一下啦先跳過嘛 先跳過先審其他的阿這麼簡單的事情為什麼不這樣子協調阿東西不要隨便答應人家請假先其他的部會再等著我們先先處理阿小事變大事對啦 反應沒有沒有來 邱黨員應該是環境部先開始嘛"},{"start":2398.41,"end":2401.813,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":2417.807,"end":2427.454,"text":"今天有三頁有請假第一頁是總統府有正式來函來請假第一頁是環境部因為委員會開會要去委員會第三頁是邱國正部長因為他要講所以下午輪"},{"start":2446.488,"end":2467.815,"text":"那個第二輪的部分他三個案沒有辦法來那一樣一樣來第一個總統和秘書長請假各位怎麼樣可以啊這樣過吧這樣過啦等一下有空或者明天後天我會等他對吧真的好啦你不用急不用急"},{"start":2476.295,"end":2476.315,"text":"嘿 這樣"},{"start":2501.872,"end":2508.042,"text":"還沒到的時候我們暫時保留,等他來再來,這樣可以嗎?我現在去通知嘛,他要開會就要停起來嘛"},{"start":2509.369,"end":2511.311,"text":"現在等到委員會結束再過來"},{"start":2535.629,"end":2537.17,"text":"總預算比什麼還重要立法院的專案報告"},{"start":2564.177,"end":2587.313,"text":"時間到環境部的部長就要來了嘛這個我等一下要跟文進行溝通一下那以後就要這樣我們在草仔鄉每一個教訓專案報告我們就不會搞比例原則環境新種新種阿柯你算老金清楚所以等一下環境部到部長一定要過來所以等一下請他過來哪裡有你選副總統還在搞這個東西這是宴會欸對不對對啊"},{"start":2592.449,"end":2596.792,"text":"讓總統府這個副秘書長來說明一下跟院長跟三個黨團的總召報告這個我剛已經聯絡上 四個黨團那個我剛已經聯絡上加農秘書長他現在在總統府內馬上這個從會議中離開過來立法院 謝謝"},{"start":2611.664,"end":2612.144,"text":"副秘書長請國務司館館長先"},{"start":2637.225,"end":2653.423,"text":"這個 院長副秘書長沒有委屈一下 你不要這樣這是立法院啦 院長這樣大家會尊敬你什麼叫那個副秘書長委屈一下 秘書長 什麼 院長好啦好啦 立法院沒有這樣啦好啦好啦好啦 我叫他委屈一下謝謝你的糾正"},{"start":2658.708,"end":2686.796,"text":"那現在我們就先進行國史館主管的預算好不好那我現在去介紹國史館列席的首長我們國史館館長陳以生先生接下來我們就看國史館第六案第六案那屬於通山科目那是不是就通案處理可以嗎"},{"start":2689.019,"end":2711.044,"text":"應該照慣例我們就通案處理欸 那個總召 來 比較快同意嗎 同意啦好 同意第六案 通山科目啦通山就通山啦好 謝謝委員通山科目 所以我們就通案處理好 那就謝謝這樣就可以給館長離開喔國事館館長在大家都看到喔 來"},{"start":2718.649,"end":2721.592,"text":"好 那就謝謝館長啦好 來接下來接下來我們就"},{"start":2737.441,"end":2753.478,"text":"行政院連市行政總署主管的部分那這個主管部分首先我就介紹列席的首長行政院連市行政總署連市長蘇俊榮先生接下來就請大家看第七案"},{"start":2755.664,"end":2755.944,"text":"第12案 國動委員"},{"start":2784.534,"end":2784.834,"text":"委員長我講一下"},{"start":2813.14,"end":2828.22,"text":"沒有意見就好了,不要再執行好不好,沒有時間請問我們人事長,就是說在水運軍巡守這邊,我們不知道人總現在有通過人力的部分嗎?"},{"start":2830.052,"end":2830.593,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2851.161,"end":2851.822,"text":"16案改組結議18案"},{"start":2866.988,"end":2874.914,"text":"改組決議改組決議沒有意見通過19案改組決議沒有意見通過20案屬於通商文通案處理21案改組決議沒有意見通過22案凍結40萬年民眾黨結果有改嗎"},{"start":2888.821,"end":2915.42,"text":"改組結一好不好改組結一比較好啦那二十三案通三科目我們就通案處理二十四案凍結百分之五那沒有意見就通過啦好有意見嗎好沒意見通過好這什麼規劃費用啥改組結一好不好"},{"start":2919.693,"end":2921.513,"text":"二十五案 簡列一百萬年二十五案 簡列二十萬年 明日見通過"},{"start":2945.664,"end":2952.526,"text":"二十六 通商公務 通案處理 二十七案 凍結五十萬年二十八案 主結議 沒有意見通過"},{"start":2974.3,"end":2974.74,"text":"建議文字修正"},{"start":3001.533,"end":3022.345,"text":"倒數第二行會同前序部研擬違法時相關把裁判改成處理機制等可行性﹑並於兩個月內向立法院司法及法制委員會提出書面報告三個月啦 都用三個月了好 那31案主決議 作文就修正 明月間就修正通過 32案主決議"},{"start":3024.721,"end":3025.862,"text":"有一個保留案要不要再考慮一下"},{"start":3052.396,"end":3052.576,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3080.885,"end":3086.186,"text":"接下來立法院主管的部分首先我就介紹列席的首長 立法院秘書長林志蝦先生"},{"start":3110.653,"end":3121.439,"text":"請大家看38案改組結議,沒有意見通過39案改組結議,沒有意見通過40案改組結議,沒有意見通過41案改組結議,沒有意見通過42案改凍結500萬年專案報告改書面報告"},{"start":3135.66,"end":3162.02,"text":"我一定要再一次的強烈表達因為我們語言發展法已經通過一段時間那麼對原住民的相關語言的推動大家都很努力我們也知道但是我們還是覺得政府應該可以做得更快更好尤其是在立法院院長在台上"},{"start":3163.303,"end":3184.885,"text":"我們相關的單位在這幾年我每一次都盡量利用機會用母語不管是國事論壇也好或者是一般的法案討論的時候希望能夠把母語重建起來但是我們看到"},{"start":3187.076,"end":3187.276,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3207.456,"end":3208.377,"text":"他似乎要回應一下"},{"start":3234.861,"end":3254.314,"text":"我有跟那個料委員溝通,同意凍結500,那因為這個是原住民語言要把它翻譯,事實上因為它那個族語很多,所以要翻譯不是那麼容易,因為我們大概有12族到13族的語言,原住民語言"},{"start":3254.774,"end":3280.063,"text":"所以我們如果每一組要直接翻譯事實上我們真的那個人力物力真的是還需要很多加強那我們會盡量努力我們會要向那個主計處那邊主計總處那邊多要一點錢然後來增加這些人員配置所以我們也很謝謝這個樣的提案我們會再努力那所以我們對於這個提案我們原則上我們"},{"start":3280.963,"end":3280.983,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":3303.902,"end":3331.592,"text":"遵照辦理好 召喚通過45案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過46案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過47案主決議做文字修正沒意見就修正通過48案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過49案主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過50案測案51案主決議有文字修正好 那50案主決議做文字修正那沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":3333.636,"end":3334.838,"text":"委員長講一下53案因為這個部分就是希望能夠把這個"},{"start":3348.703,"end":3376.494,"text":"接入機制要完成要執行那這邊應該沒問題吧對我們會在大概下一會期我們就會盡量努力來溝通來做執行好謝謝好那就53案主決議作文字修正沒有意見修正通過54案主決議徵召辦理好召喚通過55案撤案56案主決議徵召辦理好召喚通過"},{"start":3377.709,"end":3380.531,"text":"接下來我們就開始處理總統府的預算"},{"start":3408.097,"end":3432.432,"text":"來 我們就來進行進行總統府主管的部分那首先介紹列席的所長我們現在介紹總統府秘書長林佳龍先生好 那現在就請大家看第一案第一案第一案是並委會決議辦理"},{"start":3435.258,"end":3437.119,"text":"主委文字修正主委修正"},{"start":3464.386,"end":3493.036,"text":"好 你們看一下好 請收購好 另外我要請教秘書長其實這是朝野協商預算 院長主持秘書長當過立委嘛對不對 這是立法院最基本的尊重你看能來一叫不到5分鐘就到了還請教 好 第一個"},{"start":3494.994,"end":3519.571,"text":"第二 請教秘書長賴副總統現在是民進黨總統候選人對不對對他的大端機在浮現對不對如果那個有依照規定辦理的話有依照規定辦理的話那表示有一些是不依照規定辦理喔沒有就是要辦理就要依照規定"},{"start":3521.011,"end":3549.685,"text":"因為這個都有公務上面的慣例然後相關的規定順便假借公務自己去補選我想這個公務員嘛 一定是要按照規定來辦理不一定喔好 到現在你看那個會計長應該在這裡啦就是到底大家欸 主席長 我又沒問你 你在打pass等一下請你出去喔"},{"start":3553.564,"end":3580.496,"text":"你放心啦 民主黨很有經驗啦你不用跟他打pass啦不然你先離座一下民主黨 到現在民主黨到現在賴副總統搭專機現在已經負帳多少錢 可不可以講一下今天審議算要講了因為我手頭上沒有這個資料好沒關係 請那個會計長"},{"start":3584.451,"end":3611.707,"text":"花生總召 這個一向是由國防部在做處理 回去我們查一下再跟總召報告要多久總召我報告一下 這個付錢 這個如果有復選的行程 相關的錢都是這個賴副知行處理的啦 不是總統府付的 那今天下班前提供給立法院可不可以對啊 他可不是總統府付的啊 總統府怎麼能付這個錢當然 對啊 所以 但因為都有付啦 所以今天下班前應該提供給大院"},{"start":3614.144,"end":3614.804,"text":"我們開始進行司法院主管的部分"},{"start":3658.229,"end":3672.932,"text":"我來介紹列席的所長室外院秘書長吳山榮先生接下來我們就請大家看57案57案改組決議有沒有意見"},{"start":3675.253,"end":3683.703,"text":"小意見我還是要跟秘書長再說明一下秘書長應該記得我有跟你質詢過土地的問題後來監察院的委員"},{"start":3689.23,"end":3689.39,"text":"主席"},{"start":3712.488,"end":3740.979,"text":"不要變成司法烏龍這樣好嗎好 謝謝好 了解好 那謝謝 來 鄭總長基本上司法院從蔡政府執政以來司法院的表現其實我很多都不認同比如說懲戒法院懲戒法院那個吳院長現在案子進行情況怎麼樣"},{"start":3747.389,"end":3759.475,"text":"現在都有送 懲戒法院 組務法庭在處理外泄 罵一頓你知道嗎監察院 彈劾之後 你們才跟進對不對"},{"start":3764.514,"end":3765.235,"text":"你們現在處理的進度怎麼樣?現在?"},{"start":3788.493,"end":3816.74,"text":"就是都相關的案件那評鑑委員會議評鑑通過之後評鑑過了吧評鑑過了結論是什麼評鑑過了那就會做有建議就是要撤職這樣撤職那這些資料都會都會一併移送職務法庭來來並案審理啦並案審理OK好謝謝"},{"start":3826.806,"end":3829.089,"text":"好,那57案就改組結議,沒有意見通過58案測案那59案動10萬年,沒有意見通過動100萬年,沒有意見通過"},{"start":3843.919,"end":3869.955,"text":"好來60案改組結議沒有意見通過61案改組結議沒有意見通過62案改組結議沒有意見通過63案改組結議沒有意見通過64案凍結50萬年沒有意見就通過65案66案都是通刪我們就通案處理67案喂欸58案不是撤案了嗎蛤58案撤案"},{"start":3873.861,"end":3877.624,"text":"67案改組結議沒有意見通過68案改組結議沒有意見通過69案並委員結議動結束"},{"start":3901.079,"end":3902.26,"text":"蘇懷恩 有沒有意見"},{"start":3930.751,"end":3931.091,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3953.629,"end":3953.769,"text":"這五九案怎麼樣"},{"start":3981.74,"end":4004.865,"text":"現在送了一個59案怎麼樣59案他是凍結一百五萬,他們有溝通過,談好啦好,那現在就看88案88案是台灣高等法院的部分,整列50案,有沒有意見從台灣高等法院在所有案子,都是類似法題的1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11"},{"start":4011.417,"end":4018.802,"text":"每一案通常提12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20案,總是以那一手提,其他沒有意見台灣高等法院的預算來等一下"},{"start":4030.828,"end":4054.974,"text":"總總長"},{"start":4056.252,"end":4078.469,"text":"臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算 臺灣公安的預算"},{"start":4085.751,"end":4108.7,"text":"高院太惡劣了司法院人民對他要高度信任公務都不順位啊講話今天講的明天否定明天講的後天否定什麼事情?不要管什麼事啦當然要說什麼事你沒有人跟阿伯說你嘛現在大家都在吃光了請坐沒關係啦這個因為這個是右轉慢慢來右轉"},{"start":4113.786,"end":4130.985,"text":"好了,我的提案理由就是很簡單,這個用費太浪費,我要刪結果他們的人來跟我協調,一塊錢不能刪,只有兩個案子,只有剩二十萬、三十萬,我說我不要刪,我通過表決都沒關係"},{"start":4134.421,"end":4154.614,"text":"這麼傲慢,一塊錢都不能刪,怎麼會這樣?你不要知道從他的理由,昨天也是這樣,今天也是這樣,你背後理由講清楚吧,我知道你背後理由啦沒有,我有提案,我有提案,他不給刪了就這樣啊不是這樣吧?就這樣子,你問啊,不給刪了,一塊錢不給刪了回答一下回答啊,你回答啊回答啊一塊錢不給刪了"},{"start":4159.537,"end":4165.442,"text":"其實我們不給刪也是有理由的因為我們都是清潔物品汽油然後紙張、碳粉、辦公室維修還有人民重要的油資還有現在很重要的治安服務"},{"start":4184.591,"end":4185.272,"text":"主席"},{"start":4201.946,"end":4221.893,"text":"我們的原則也是不能爭裂的其實我們的油脂跟我們的碳粉到年底真的都是在奢欠所以我們才會跟委員說拜託不要殺真的是不能殺拜託嘛 你有拜託嘛 對不對你們是用拜託的方式嗎當然啊不是用命令的方式吧怎麼可以命令呢拜託都給我殺"},{"start":4225.235,"end":4246.836,"text":"我拜託他給我刪因為我覺得他浪費太多我拜託他給我刪幫我拜託一下好不好對啦這樣啦我們講清楚啦我們大家是草野祥業老委員嘛你今天很多部會都是你一個人堅持所以你的保安至少"},{"start":4248.115,"end":4271.3,"text":"一半以上,六七十案,包括經濟部、交通部等等都有那每一個都很尊重你昨天也請他們跟你溝通,包括經濟部以及交通部我們還是在這裡要解決啦那我想各部會沒有這種滿漢感受說一塊錢都不能刪當然是拜託"},{"start":4272.86,"end":4295.772,"text":"只是沒有跪求而已啊 拜託 都要去拜託嘛他說 我也算給你拜託這演技的問題大家都很清楚我不知道澳門的高院 這麼多澳門 一塊錢都不給我刪沒有啦 他是給你拜託啦我沒有拜託給我刪啦 因為我覺得浪費啊 我是看盡人民荷包啊那換我講話嘛對不對 你有說 你說這麼多話我還沒說完"},{"start":4301.665,"end":4320.799,"text":"所以這大家是互相的你這麼資深的委員總預算一定要趕快處理今天要第二輪了所以大家合意來談就合意來談有些部分本來就有通商現在政府聽起來連貪腐都要設限我是覺得這個國家有問題我應該這麼call"},{"start":4326.683,"end":4352.939,"text":"這個司法機關的探魂還要奢簽,要點兩顆金,金來金去,這又不是,這個岳國大不應該如此運作那主席長以後這個,你們的一三四獨立編列,你自己編的嘛司法院一三四你們自己編的,你自己編的要編好一點嘛通常司法院一三四很少人家參與,而且你自己編的你編阿公兩趟我們都不夠,你這個怎麼編的我都,你們自己也要檢討嘛"},{"start":4355.023,"end":4377.735,"text":"你通常騙來我們都沒有傳過來行政院都最近都沒有加出意見今天加出意見我們還是會基本上還是談戶的司法院因為司法獨立我們是非常尊重但是這裡面後面也有一個案子你是不是為了那個為了你的選區那個"},{"start":4381.715,"end":4382.335,"text":"事先答應人家後來做不到"},{"start":4402.99,"end":4404.971,"text":"這國有公共主力 國有公共建築物 怎麼可以無償提供給李一平來這邊 他們有活動停車場"},{"start":4423.546,"end":4424.447,"text":"在這裡不要講這個"},{"start":4445.64,"end":4453.127,"text":"如果你要講這個 那我就告訴你 白紙黑紙都有 他們吞回去 這樣子是司法院嗎 你告訴我 有啊 我就有啊"},{"start":4472.179,"end":4473.5,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4500.334,"end":4500.654,"text":"主席"},{"start":4515.514,"end":4518.615,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分：完整會議"},{"start":4530.16,"end":4531.861,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4548.769,"end":4549.309,"text":"在前面"},{"start":4567.819,"end":4568.219,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4597.452,"end":4598.333,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4854.761,"end":4869.409,"text":"我講就好了,大家不要再講了,講太多了我講這樣好不好,他講21案啦,88案到108案,是不是21案?21案嘛,課長知道大家都不要再講了,我來講,大家同意就先這樣"},{"start":4881.901,"end":4909.738,"text":"好來88案到108案一共21案21案有4個案已經溝通測案那賴委員說這沒關係照常測案再來有8個案屬於通刪還是通案處理所以這要扣掉剩下9個案9個案那這個賴委員希望有2個案能夠有刪一些那7個案保留"},{"start":4912.83,"end":4913.551,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4930.034,"end":4944.046,"text":"好 那就不要再說了 好不好 就這樣等一下 我要了解是哪個案可以不 三是哪一個案嘛 兩個 哪兩個案三 來我們現在就討論 其他的就照這樣那現在要三的兩個 走下去來一個一個來 好不好好 來 88案"},{"start":4954.795,"end":4962.639,"text":"整理50萬年徵照辦理89案整理1000萬年徵照辦理那90案跟91案那賴委員已經同意撤案"},{"start":4983.28,"end":4995.65,"text":"測案沒有他是測案測案九十二案檢列三十萬年九十二案保留九十三案通商案我們就通案處理九十四案檢列三十萬年"},{"start":5013.135,"end":5031.015,"text":"編少一點啦 通信費用啊 保留啊 保留齁 少一點嘛 這有錢公共就好了啦好來 每一部會的通信費你都這樣搞 你這樣造成幾百個案子 都是你拜託你不要在裡面說閒話 起個案子算什麼啦 拜託"},{"start":5034.929,"end":5035.069,"text":"95案檢列22年"},{"start":5046.069,"end":5057.131,"text":"來來來 主席啊我再講一下 老柯一直說 你說一直扣帽子你拜託請你睜大眼睛看我每一個案子只有三 三十萬 二十萬 二十萬他一毛錢都不給我三 什麼東西啊二十萬 你在這裡一直講所以民法保留 保留啦二十萬三十萬不給我三"},{"start":5070.904,"end":5084.733,"text":"這基本上 司法院在編列預算的時候有問題主席長 你有上過他們嗎對啊行政院基本上都尊重司法院的預算"},{"start":5086.377,"end":5105.732,"text":"那顯然 民主黨你怎麼讓這種預算送出來連一個項目 三個十萬二十萬都沒辦法刪一定要照案通過那這顯然 核實編列啦沒差 沒那麼核實啦真的 這顯示司法院在預算編列上"},{"start":5107.694,"end":5134.73,"text":"沒有彈性而且有問題為什麼呢 因為院長講了連個10萬20萬都刪了之後會影響他業務的發展那不就說來抓舉手通過所以 主席長你評論一下這有沒有問題 你敢不敢講我尊重兩個兩院長因為五院平行按麥克風你坐那麼久平行我不能夠表示意見"},{"start":5135.716,"end":5161.041,"text":"我現在請你用專心實踐去教學以前好不好用專心實踐 你的看法呢 有沒有看過我們不要理你 有沒有看過沒有 我認為他們都核實編列了核實到這種程度 太核實了 還在說話我還是 他們是核實編列的不然我來講一下好不好我看 照孟德斯丘的三權分立民主政治"},{"start":5162.679,"end":5189.233,"text":"三百多年在英國的發展三百多年國會至上國會至上民主政治是國會至上審判獨立是司法權我們不會去干預司法獨立是指審判獨立啊我們沒有干預你們的這個審判所以大家不要用司法院好像是說我是獨立的好像就我跟你講在民主政治"},{"start":5190.909,"end":5194.783,"text":"國會代表民意 人民作主"},{"start":5196.175,"end":5224.353,"text":"所以國會是代表民意 你們在民意之前要謙卑 要記得我是覺得今天我是有感而發啦 阿我沒講這個工作就不行我們的國家 因為華人文化圈沒有民主政治嘛阿都受到黨國教育 都比較差 三綱五常 儒家三綱五常 軍委之綱 副委之綱 副委之綱會有奧慢 所以一定要記得 大家互相尊重"},{"start":5225.492,"end":5241.404,"text":"沒有說不能刪的啦法院院長還有預算不能刪預算錢是國會的錢啊審判我們不會去干預你但是在審判在預算啦還是要尊重立法院沒有說所謂什麼不能刪哪有不能刪"},{"start":5246.723,"end":5272.367,"text":"我還是要表示一下沒有所謂不能刪只是他說拜託不要刪太多這樣而已前面那講得很好除了黨國教育要不接受他有黨我知道包括民進黨但是他前面講得很好我要跟他敬禮"},{"start":5273.592,"end":5280.777,"text":"真的阿?你們要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?要敬禮阿?"},{"start":5302.455,"end":5322.376,"text":"我對剛剛委員長的這一席話我百分之百支持本來就是啊 這第一個第二個 也就是我剛剛 剛開始的時候為什麼請林佳龍 秘長來列席為什麼請 環境部的部長來列席本來就是啊"},{"start":5323.888,"end":5349.995,"text":"我剛剛還沒有禮貌糾正院長說對這個總統府副民長說讓他委屈了一點都不委屈怎麼委屈來請他先離屈請民長來哪會哪會委屈所以院長剛剛那句話基本上我真的全力支持也謝謝院長你是全民的"},{"start":5351.325,"end":5374.933,"text":"立法院長,謝謝好,謝謝,來,劉委員曾銘忠總召當講的部分,我在部分贊成啦那一開始,是這樣子啦當然院長講的話我們都充分尊重那一開始的時候不管你提到總統府秘書長或是環境部那我們覺得這樣不妥當所以我們也是在曾總召的建議之下趕快去進行協商那你也看到兩位首長都到了嘛"},{"start":5375.333,"end":5401.852,"text":"表示是尊重我們在立法院尤其是行使中央政府總預算的這個草野協商那有關於司法院的這個預算的部分因為預算就是歸立法院來審查所以剛剛曾明中一直說主計長要表示意見我想他們也都是互相尊重那我們也會看重我們自己的審查權當然呢他們提出來的預算多還是寡最後的決定還是在立法院但是我是要回歸到第二項就是剛剛那個賴氏堡委員所提的部分"},{"start":5402.672,"end":5426.721,"text":"那既然院長已經裁決有通刪的項目跟測案的項目那我們只是把go through一遍那所以我會建議就是是不是從94案開始往下來走那我剛剛有跟賴思寶委員建議就是說如果他放在一般行政下面的這樣一個大科目的話下面的項目結就不要去特別去堅持因為你所提到要刪的部分包括物品、租金、房屋建築、養護費"},{"start":5427.841,"end":5429.622,"text":"我希望大家耐心替我把話講完院長剛剛講那些話 大家都在怕破啊"},{"start":5452.904,"end":5457.151,"text":"除了你那個黨國 當然包括民進黨黨國 這樣就統一百分了 這個從94年開始"},{"start":5464.11,"end":5482.046,"text":"我刪什麼 30萬過來20萬過來20萬 一毛錢都不給我刪然後 所以你一定要給他過那我現在只剩7個案要保留不給我保留可以 通通給我刪 就該管了然後科目自行調整"},{"start":5483.787,"end":5495.194,"text":"主席 沒你這個問題 司法院你查 查不出這個幾十萬 我打死也不相信把頭看下來給我 我不相信我講一下來 我講一下好不好不是 他們不自行調整的條項他們不自行調整的條項"},{"start":5509.172,"end":5526.286,"text":"禮委員你繼續說 我的意思是說今天要處理可以按照我的意思我刪多少就刪多少因為沒有多少錢加起來大概一百多萬而已統統科目自行調整打這麼開 如果這樣不可以那只好去表決就這樣了好來 總統長"},{"start":5533.881,"end":5534.001,"text":"賴慈寶委員"},{"start":5553.649,"end":5577.336,"text":"就是連文書的費用都沒有辦法的這個情況下 是不是能夠讓他們尊潔調整那畢竟我們也是要尊重委員在立法院預算的審議權嘛好 來 那就總統要說幾句來我贊成的因為司法院司法院會議長今年113年度編多少總預算多少277億對啊 277億你那100"},{"start":5585.821,"end":5585.981,"text":"主席"},{"start":5609.571,"end":5630.769,"text":"跟國務委員報告一下 行政院都按照憲法徵修條文的規定都有提供互助意見 謝謝對司法院的預算都有提供互助意見等一下 你現在是請你聰明不是 他太聰明了 他能夠講只有講到這裡而已可以不可以啦"},{"start":5637.915,"end":5665.342,"text":"我只能夠按照憲法去做因為我行政院只能代表我代表行政院說我按照憲法徵修條文提老附助意見我們都有提每年都有提附助意見謝謝主席長就在那裡有時候要發揮功能你現在就不要用主席長的身份我從預算上請教你你現在不是主席長喔可不可以"},{"start":5666.496,"end":5689.107,"text":"可不可以 我一直問你嘛 因為現在涉及到問題 因為他的科目之間調整只有在他那個高院可以調嗎 會不會總預算裡面不能 他的如果是 他們是一個獨立的單位預算是不能夠調的如果是單位預算 不同的機關不能調高等委員 今年被錄到"},{"start":5691.235,"end":5705.648,"text":"報告委員那個整個高院是21億多所以說我們就建議剛剛講100萬是不是就讓我們在100萬範圍內在一般行政鄉下一般行政鄉下可以啦一般行政鄉下17億"},{"start":5711.16,"end":5712.381,"text":"三百一十五億對不對"},{"start":5735.396,"end":5735.416,"text":"因為這齁"},{"start":5757.148,"end":5784.162,"text":"因為你們不要生氣,這跟我們說沒關係因為如果我們一開始客戶自營調整,我們的思維就會比較寬廣一點嘛因為你這個是指令山的啊既然要客戶自營調整的話,客戶自營調整在臺高院17億裡面你算得多少在客戶自營調整的話,當然這個好辦啦我們講個總數啦,這樣比較快啦那台幣一百,台幣八五那些公共的"},{"start":5784.921,"end":5805.634,"text":"立委員 立委員 剛才說的17億來的齁 你聽我說人事費用是16億捏 他們真正能夠使用的這些行政費用只剩下1億左右 啊你就殺到280 太多了啦稍微縮小一點 稍微縮小一點沒有啦 就 這個案就先保留嘛 你不用浪費一個時間嘛沒有啦 沒有啦"},{"start":5813.055,"end":5815.759,"text":"剛剛老柯講說在一般行政向下那個又太窄"},{"start":5830.714,"end":5839.161,"text":"在高院的 單位預算下 調整因為是41跟後面的第14頁42是兩個不同的科目因為在預算法的規定要在同一個科目下要哪一個不同科目"},{"start":5858.015,"end":5867.665,"text":"好了,那這樣就﹐90案保留﹐95案保留﹐96案保留﹐97、98通案處理﹐99通案處理"},{"start":5873.018,"end":5884.124,"text":"好來 過來109保留101保留102通商 通案處理103測案104保留105通商 通案處理106測案107通商 通案處理108通商 通案處理 就這樣好 先這樣啦最後原因還是要解決喔好 謝謝 謝謝好啦 接下來考試驗"},{"start":5914.218,"end":5916.846,"text":"好了好了好了好了 休息一下 休息一會兒"},{"start":5925.952,"end":5926.072,"text":"主席"},{"start":6184.451,"end":6212.432,"text":"好 那我們就繼續這個時代力量黨團他有講他去那個委員會這個環保委員那他有講說對這裡沒有意見就跟他報告一下那現在我們就來進行考試院主管的部分那首先介紹列席的首長考試院秘書長劉建新先生"},{"start":6221.391,"end":6228.992,"text":"好,那我們就請大家看109案改組結議,沒有意見就通過110,並委員會結議辦理,提書面報告,沒有意見通過11,改組結議,沒有意見通過12,改組結議,沒有意見通過13,動10萬元,沒有意見通過14,動5萬元,沒有意見通過15,組結議有意見,來"},{"start":6248.116,"end":6269.647,"text":"114的部分我們同意但是想這邊就教一下那個祕書長 劉祕書長因為我們這邊有接貨到陳情就是說在11月6號的晚上大概9點的時候您這邊有來到這個財團法人平台基金會大樓就是大概是中正區中華路那個路段當時你有去參加一個會議那這邊有"},{"start":6272.728,"end":6295.686,"text":"文化部長史哲還有賴清德總統候選人競選辦公室的總幹事潘孟安先生他們有提供一些照片就是你們在這邊出入的一個照片因為現在目前面臨大選我們認為行政單位應該要恪守相關的行政中立那不曉得你這個會議討論的內容是什麼"},{"start":6298.528,"end":6298.708,"text":"鄭麗君董事長"},{"start":6313.025,"end":6332.25,"text":"鄭麗君董事長,討論什麼事情?公務還是私務?因為清平台這邊過去啦,就是過去這麼多年其實他們那邊都有做一些政策的討論那我跟鄭董事長因為也是私交的朋友所以那天是剛好過去找他,做一些所以沒有跟"},{"start":6332.99,"end":6347.169,"text":"潘孟安總幹事見面沒有見面那12月4號也在這邊同時出現第二次那這次還有包含這個我們的這個賴清德競選總部的主委姚立民那這個會議是跟他們一起開的嗎12月4號當天沒有"},{"start":6349.48,"end":6351.682,"text":"公務還是私務?所以你是拜訪誰?是在幫賴清德或王總準備辯論嗎?"},{"start":6365.097,"end":6392.863,"text":"我希望齁現在大選期間你們還是要注意一下你們的這些行政中立的一個界線不要讓外界有太多的這樣子的一個負面的社會觀感那我希望這個部分你們是不是請這個同仁來我們辦公室跟我們說明一下相關的一個內容好不好我已經說明了都說不出來了還要再說明嗎說明一下好不好因為兩個時間非常的接近齁然後而且"},{"start":6394.356,"end":6421.044,"text":"這個潘孟安總幹事跟我們這個姚立民主委其實也都在那個時間在各道出入那我們合理的懷疑你們是在進行相關競選的一個活動跟相關的政見的辯論的一個商討我們不需要有這樣的事情發生當然您現在的說法我們都尊重可是我想本於這個事實的釐清也要對社會大眾示意我希望你們還是說明清楚好不好OK好謝謝長長"},{"start":6423.786,"end":6447.913,"text":"秘書長你現在職稱是什麼我現在是考試院秘書長下班後呢下班後我還是考試院秘書長你最好不要被發現第三次你已經去跟他見過幾次面本來就跟這些 有一些朋友會做一些這個意見的討論"},{"start":6449.707,"end":6476.517,"text":"合適嗎因為其實就有很多時候這個也有跟一些相關的政策跟我們相關政策是會做一些意見交換那同時因為有時候是拜訪朋友交換選舉意見合適嗎我們不會交換選舉意見民主黨最好不要啦好不好這樣的消息出來對選情沒有幫助啦"},{"start":6478.993,"end":6479.733,"text":"116案主決議 117案主決議 有沒有意見"},{"start":6501.331,"end":6529.776,"text":"好那就照案通過118案主決議好照案通過119案主決議好照案通過接下來就是考選部那我介紹一下考選部部長許書強先生好那我們就進行120案改主決議沒有意見通過121案改主決議沒有意見通過122案主決議有沒有意見好那就照案通過"},{"start":6530.714,"end":6539.99,"text":"那接下來就全序部部長周作宏先生好那我請大家看123案改組決議沒有見通過124案凍結50萬年那"},{"start":6545.363,"end":6572.372,"text":"是不是可以見請凍結十萬元然後三個月書面報告那本案我們有瞭解陳晚會委員的關心是有關於鄉鎮市民代表會祕書的植物列等那我們已經在檢討當中我們可以在三個月內做一個建議陳委員那邊是比較在乎是什麼時候可以做成決定這個案子我們保留好不好陳晚會委員他堅持保留"},{"start":6572.892,"end":6573.912,"text":"124 保留125 改組結議126 撤案127 組結議128 組結議129 組結議129 組結議"},{"start":6602.145,"end":6604.086,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6622.267,"end":6626.809,"text":"公務延年保障及培訓委員會．主任委員堅證國家文官學院院長．培芝女士"},{"start":6642.95,"end":6644.471,"text":"公務連連退休府系基金管理局局長陳明賢先生"},{"start":6673.444,"end":6690.555,"text":"來 請大家看135案改組結議 沒有意見通過136組結議 作文就修正 沒有意見就修正通過好 那就考試院就到此告一段落 謝謝大家"},{"start":6715.892,"end":6716.172,"text":"現在我們進行"},{"start":6724.821,"end":6725.362,"text":"137、138、139都是通商"},{"start":6747.68,"end":6753.109,"text":"跟 抱歉抱歉 138 139 測案那我們就 測案就不討論啦齁137 蛤 來 有意見"},{"start":6756.314,"end":6763.758,"text":"137案是通案137就通案處理請看140案140案凍結1000萬年這個可不可以併委員會決議 委員會已經處理過了可不可以併委員會決議140併委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過141 併委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":6786.172,"end":6801.22,"text":"那142通3我們就通案處理143檢列1萬年143是院長的特別費我們建議保留啦好保留144改組結議沒有見通過145凍結10萬年沒有見通過都談好了嘛凍結10萬好不好"},{"start":6815.681,"end":6816.382,"text":"146 監裁院人權委員會最近報宅經常"},{"start":6836.88,"end":6862.509,"text":"對於原住民的一些評論也好﹖或是做法也好﹖讓原住民﹖我個人看﹖非常不愉快﹖比如說﹖之前有一個叫樓小雲的事件﹖後來大學校長又失言說﹖400年前臺灣是一個一不必體的社會﹖明明是在講原住民﹖亞美族青年的穿著服裝﹖"},{"start":6864.029,"end":6881.072,"text":"後來也被媒體不當的報導﹖一直到今年4月29日﹖臺中一中西環的字眼﹖臺大也發生了這樣的事情﹖所以我們覺得監察院的人權委員會在這個部分沒有什麼作為﹖真的沒有什麼作為﹖"},{"start":6883.518,"end":6893.552,"text":"人權委員會近年都有在努力 他們也給我們做一些說明 但是我覺得今天在審預算的時候"},{"start":6896.755,"end":6919.212,"text":"那麼多的事情關於原住民的事居然都提不出相關的資料了人權會已經成立了三年多到現在為止真的是沒有什麼作為所以我本來要刪他們的預算但是又覺得不給他們經費又不曉得他們就變成沒有事做那麼關於原住民的人權的重視"},{"start":6920.509,"end":6947.071,"text":"我只要在這裡再一次的表達讓大家重視那麼主政的人權會應該要透過這次我所提出的這些意見以後趕緊的急起直追把原住民的相關人權能夠看到你們真的是有在努力而且也有一些作為"},{"start":6950.704,"end":6952.305,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6972.014,"end":6978.057,"text":"市長,我講一下好不好,拜託一下,是病委會的凍結,然後再改一個組結議好,改組結議啦凍結的部分,病委會是決議辦理"},{"start":6984.537,"end":6984.557,"text":"凍結並委員會"},{"start":7015.477,"end":7016.378,"text":"1462 凍結束並委員會結辦禮 文注修正"},{"start":7040.759,"end":7041.74,"text":"委員會也有決議的 是不是並委員會處理"},{"start":7067.964,"end":7069.044,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":7585.114,"end":7608.34,"text":"好來我們現在就繼續開會那進行法務部及所屬主管收住部分那我現在來介紹一下列席的所長首先介紹法務部部長蔡清祥先生接下來廉政署署長莊榮松先生接下來剿政署署長周輝煌先生"},{"start":7609.844,"end":7634.165,"text":"接下來最高檢察署司機官長吳怡銘先生再來是台灣高等檢察署司機官長陳玉萍女士再來是台灣新北地方檢察署主任檢察官江宥辰先生還有調查局局長王俊麗先生好介紹完畢那我們請大家"},{"start":7635.911,"end":7649.403,"text":"現在請大家看154案改為組結議 沒有意見通過155案動50萬年 沒有意見通過156案改組結議 沒有意見通過157案改組結議 沒有意見通過158案改156改組結議好不好156改啦158案改組結議 沒有意見通過156 157"},{"start":7663.985,"end":7664.585,"text":"159動50萬年沒有見通過"},{"start":7674.07,"end":7684.314,"text":"1600改組決議沒有見通過161改組決議沒有見通過162改組決議沒有見通過163改組決議沒有見通過164改組決議沒有見通過165改組決議沒有見通過166改組決議沒有見通過167改組決議沒有見通過168並委員會決議辦理提出報告沒有見通過"},{"start":7701.761,"end":7710.487,"text":"169改組結議沒有意見通過170組結議有沒有意見沒有意見就召喚通過171組結議沒有意見召喚通過172組結議有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過173組結議有沒有意見沒有召喚通過174組結議"},{"start":7727.366,"end":7727.386,"text":"179 測案"},{"start":7745.441,"end":7760.117,"text":"一八零組結一有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過一八一組結一有沒有意見沒有好那召喚通過一八二組結一有沒有意見沒有好召喚通過一八三組結一有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":7761.237,"end":7780.213,"text":"184組結議185組結議186組結議187組結議188組結議"},{"start":7780.82,"end":7799.544,"text":"沒有沒有意見 召喚通過189 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過190 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過191 主決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見 召喚通過接下來就192 改主決議沒有意見通過193 改主決議沒有意見通過194 改主決議沒有意見通過195 並委員會決議辦理提書面報告沒有意見通過196 改主決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":7810.527,"end":7816.835,"text":"197 測案198 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過199 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過200 並委員會決議辦理提出並報告沒有意見通過201"},{"start":7827.912,"end":7835.475,"text":"改組決議沒有意見通過202通商通案處理203並委員結辦禮題書面報告沒有意見通過204通商科目通案處理205組決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見就照案通過206動10萬年沒有意見通過"},{"start":7851.662,"end":7874.753,"text":"207改組協議那沒有建議通過208改組協議沒有建議通過209改組協議沒有建議通過210改組協議沒有建議通過211凍結一千萬元都比較多一點喔等一下沒有改組協議喔沒有沒有沒有改組協議要不要改不改要不要說明一下那暗網那個現在狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":7876.432,"end":7898.204,"text":"因為調查局在懲辦當中,是不是請調查局說明一下?請調查局說明一下我們跟邱委員報告,有關於通信監察的建置跟實施的情況基本上我們這個通信監察的這個網路的設備,它是實體隔離的,它跟外部其實是沒有聯繫的"},{"start":7899.565,"end":7923.753,"text":"那我們的同仁因為我們是負責執行端那所有的申請單位他都是向法院來請票不管說是刑事案件或者是國安案件我們根據法院核的那個票然後來key入這個相關的號碼那目前情況是這樣那有關於這個網路上出現這一個部分我請我們的那個自動安全處長他是專家我請他來做說明"},{"start":7924.133,"end":7933.61,"text":"你們相關的行政程序我們都了解但事實上那些資料已經外流了那留在網路上的資訊據我們這邊了解基本上有七到八成都是真實的"},{"start":7934.42,"end":7953.385,"text":"那現在最擔心就是說官方的這些相關監聽的資料還有這些重要政要的個人資料外洩因為我想各自的保護是現在治安及國安最重要的原則之一現在為什麼詐騙會那麼猖獗變民怨之首就是這些資料真真假假"},{"start":7954.285,"end":7973.927,"text":"7分真3分假或是5分真5分假才會造成這個詐騙成功率非常高的一個問題那現在這個問題已經嚴重到到我們的行政單位甚至是勤制單位的監聽的資訊都已經外流了那相關預防的措施你現在要講的都是你們現在在做的事情相關預防的措施跟後面"},{"start":7974.688,"end":7997.97,"text":"的這個查處還有源頭的管理跟追蹤這個要怎麼樣的防止這才是我們現在關心的好不好我希望針對這個部分說明那你們至於最高檢或是地協署這邊在偵辦的這個偵查不公開的部分我們都尊重但是目前的這個現況要怎麼樣去做防止包含你們要跟速發部還是說相關的法治單位怎麼樣去合作怎麼樣讓"},{"start":8000.213,"end":8006.084,"text":"讓國人能夠針對這件事情給他們一個回應跟說明我覺得這個是我們現在比較關心的"},{"start":8016.238,"end":8036.357,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好我想這個事件我們大家都不樂見那在這邊特別跟委員說明一下就是說其實在這件事情發生第一時間那我們具體接到相關的訊息以後當然我們第一時間要做什麼我們第一時間就要看這個東西的內容然後我們來判斷這到底是怎麼一回事然後我們必須對社會對媒體做"},{"start":8039.159,"end":8062.332,"text":"迅速的回應我覺得這是我們必須應該做的事情那今天發生這個事情大概基本上我們從我們我們這個執法單位的角度來看大概就只有兩種可能第一個可能就是所謂的假訊息的散佈第二個可能就是所謂的這個我們的內部系統遭到害侵剛剛委員也特別提到這一點我想我就這兩部分來說明第一個"},{"start":8063.112,"end":8085.5,"text":"那我們在第一時間為什麼大家為什麼覺得很奇怪說我們判斷它是一個認知作戰我想在認知作戰裡面通常我們在講假訊息的時候那通常假訊息大家都耳熟能詳就是惡假害然後違反相關的法律但是我們當我們談到這個所謂認知作戰的程式的時候它又不一樣它的訊息出來它可能會造成我們簡單問一下今天是審議"},{"start":8087.381,"end":8088.301,"text":"立法院黨團協商：立法院黨團協商．"},{"start":8110.666,"end":8128.647,"text":"任職作戰的態樣是很相近的第二個他這個散播的操作手法我們在講任職作戰的時候他們通常都是在在境外拋出一個假訊息然後在國內進行發酵可能有好幾層次的一個傳播那他選擇的國內的是選擇了爆料公社"},{"start":8129.647,"end":8155.06,"text":"報料公社為什麼沒有繼續的在所謂的訊息農場在所謂的社群平台繼續散佈因為它已經引起了媒體的重視所以它已經達到了它的效果所以其實我們後續觀察它在第二天的時候在暗網的相關資料就已經下架了就已經下架了我想這個是可以好 針對跟預算有關的就好簡單歐要今天不是執行啦好 了解謝謝院長"},{"start":8157.061,"end":8179.066,"text":"那我主要還是要最後說明一點我們執行通訊監察我們是依照通行監察保障法那這個法律在我們的執行單位來講的話其實我們接到的是法院的這個監察書監察書上面的資料其實很多在個資上面都具識別化"},{"start":8179.326,"end":8179.606,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8198.259,"end":8222.375,"text":"有關於這個資安但任何人都不能保證說是絕對百分之百那雖然說這個事情我們基本上我們說明說是一個認知作戰但是就資安的部分我們仍然在做這個不斷的在做清點在做檢討那這個部分是我們要來強化這個資安的部分我就這個部分委員關心的在特別在補充說明"},{"start":8225.257,"end":8228.158,"text":"法治委員會到此告一段落"},{"start":8255.441,"end":8283.896,"text":"好接下來請慧環慧環是哪一個部會先來來慧環哪一個部會誰先來三個部會資料給我就會宣布一下慧環是哪一個部會先到勞動部勞動部勞動部先到好來"},{"start":8286.344,"end":8288.305,"text":"勞動部、衛生、福利、環境部"},{"start":8311.754,"end":8312.216,"text":"反正部長還要過來這邊換嗎?"},{"start":8326.104,"end":8326.884,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8410.97,"end":8433.776,"text":"各位先進我們就繼續開會啦齁好繼續開會那現在進行勞動部主管那介紹列席的所長勞動部部長許平春女士好來現在請大家看第一案第一案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":8435.936,"end":8458.323,"text":"第2案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第3案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第4案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第5案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第6案 改組決議 沒有見通過第7案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第8案 並委員會接一半禮 沒有見通過第9案 改組決議 沒有見通過"},{"start":8460.183,"end":8487.946,"text":"第十案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十一案改組結議沒有見通過第十二案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十三案並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過第十四案改組結議沒有見通過第十五案改組結議沒有見通過第十六案改組結議沒有見通過第十七案改組結議沒有見通過院長講一下好來十七案好謝謝就是勞動部"},{"start":8489.827,"end":8513.989,"text":"要請部長就是社會上現在有這樣的訴求跟聲音不外是對於現行勞保年金的不信任還有對勞退心智不滿意那最重要就是對於老年退休保障雙重不足的擔憂那臺灣勞工普遍低薪進而影響退休金的勤勉"},{"start":8515.462,"end":8523.772,"text":"未來即將面對繳多、少領、延後退的勞保年金的改革方案甚至還要繼續接受僅有6%的僱主的提撥率"},{"start":8529.932,"end":8552.043,"text":"一個月即便領三、四萬的勞工翻一下他們個人的賬戶的提撥累計那金額實在是少的可以所以無論是年金改革或是勞退的心智政府始終只敢要求勞工付出更多連政府撥補都是出自於人民的納稅錢"},{"start":8553.984,"end":8581.578,"text":"卻不敢要求企業老闆負擔更多所以在這裡先求有再求好我們請勞動部一定要注意注重我們勞工的心聲那這一次雖然改組決議但是我們還是要強調勞動部應該針對提高僱主提撥勞退比例議案競訴邀集相關的代表召開公聽會收集相關意見"},{"start":8584.02,"end":8601.091,"text":"請務必如期提供 請部長回應一下謝謝委員的建議 那個部分有關勞工的權益 我們會來努力 謝謝好 那就接下來 請看18案18案 被委員接辦禮 沒有意見通過19案 被委員會接辦禮 沒有意見通過第20案 凍結100萬年 那這個部分"},{"start":8610.255,"end":8611.861,"text":"報告主席那個改動節20萬已經簽名了"},{"start":8617.034,"end":8645.003,"text":"來改動結二十五案沒有見通過二十一案並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過二十二案改組決議沒有見通過二十三案改組決議沒有見通過二十四案改組決議沒有見通過二十五案改組決議沒有見通過二十六案改組決議沒有見通過二十七案改組決議沒有見通過二十八案改組決議沒有見通過二十九案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":8646.664,"end":8674.663,"text":"30案凍結10萬年沒有意見通過31案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過32案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過33案主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過34案主決議有沒有意見?遵照辦理好 照案通過35案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過36案主決議遵照辦理照案通過37案主決議遵照辦理照案通過38案主...啊 怎麼樣?"},{"start":8677.779,"end":8683.143,"text":"你認為國內的低薪成為國安問題,你作為勞動部的部長,你有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":8706.942,"end":8715.769,"text":"陳總長,其實勞動部在我們全管範圍,我們一直很努力。這8年來,就我們自己所主管的基本工資,我們8年連續調升。"},{"start":8719.332,"end":8719.492,"text":"主席"},{"start":8734.386,"end":8736.387,"text":"８立法院黨團協商８公務預算部分８公務預算部分８"},{"start":8759.205,"end":8773.893,"text":"市長適用最低工資法的現在的勞工大概多少人報告委員大概240萬左右總數勞工有多少總數受付勞工的話大概900萬那您這一次的最低工資法通過會有效益嗎"},{"start":8785.98,"end":8810.16,"text":"報告委我覺得一定會有幫助一定會有效益因為這幾年雖然沒有最低工資法我用基本工資的審議辦法我們也連續8年調升而且調升的幅度我看崗委報告調升的幅度是非常非常大的那未來的這個最低工資法因為它整個審議的制度更健全程序更明確審議的指標也更清楚"},{"start":8810.88,"end":8813.541,"text":"民團都不看好 我也不看好 有少數民團 有很多勞團肯定我們 像勞政 全產種"},{"start":8834.085,"end":8850.035,"text":"他們都看得很清楚 那個也一再他們對這個法律要通過都很期待謝謝委員總召你們的支持讓這個法草野的委員支持讓我們法輪功順利通過我們不支持啊比如說條件不得低於7年度CPI我們不支持"},{"start":8850.775,"end":8866.302,"text":"報告總召這個部分其實我其實那天在委員會有跟您說過有時候我們必須在一個法你要把它定死說不能第一某個其實在現在世界各主要國家的有最低公司法沒有這樣定那其實今天也有老團提出有"},{"start":8870.664,"end":8894.633,"text":"今天有勞團說是不是用這樣子說不得定某個指標它說不見得對勞工有利所以我是覺得我們其實以這幾年的審議我們的經驗跟總統報告我們其實重視在疫情我們全數都反映我們的CPI甚至在參佐GDP等等條幅都比這個CPI還高你的問題大家都自己講出來了"},{"start":8897.179,"end":8908.821,"text":"疫情期間就用政府的政府補助嘛 你也講了嘛 對不對所以意思是說 政總長的話就用不得已低於前年CPI是對的"},{"start":8910.535,"end":8933.493,"text":"只是你不敢 不敢答應對不對不是 這個報告總長 因為我們有時候法律定在那邊比如說遇到特殊的情況 你少個一塊錢都不行那一個法這麼硬的話 我覺得不見得是好啦世界最主要的國家幾乎都是給我們審議委員更多的談席去參佐當時的情況來決定這個公司啦"},{"start":8938.12,"end":8939.1,"text":"現在請大家看38案38案主決議 沒人見通過"},{"start":8969.062,"end":8982.949,"text":"三十九案 主決議 有沒有意見遵照辦理好 照案通過四十案 主決議文字修正這個有文字修正有文字修正主決議 文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":8984.731,"end":8985.892,"text":" 41 案主決議有沒有見?"},{"start":8985.892,"end":9006.851,"text":"遵照辦理好 照案通過42 案遵照辦理好 照案通過43 案主決議有做文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過44 案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過45 案撤案46 案主決議有做文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過47 案主決議遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":9008.137,"end":9024.342,"text":"那再來就48案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過49案 通3案 我們就通案處理50案 改組結一 理沒有見通過51案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過52案 並委員會結一半 理沒有見通過53案 減列150萬元改動保險業務150萬元"},{"start":9036.087,"end":9037.389,"text":"部長啊 這個不要凍結了啦 給你三個二十萬啦"},{"start":9065.102,"end":9066.744,"text":"剪列二十萬 科目自行調整"},{"start":9075.302,"end":9095.255,"text":"50案 通商案 通案處理55案 改為主決議 沒有見通過56案 凍結10萬年 沒有見通過57案 改主決議 沒有見通過58案 通商案 通案處理59案 並委員結辦理 沒有見通過60案 改主決議 沒有見通過61案 改主決議 沒有見通過62案 改主決議 沒有見通過63案 增累500萬年"},{"start":9103.755,"end":9106.563,"text":"遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":9110.285,"end":9119.11,"text":"64 案改組結議沒有見通過65 案改凍結10萬年沒有見通過66 案改組結議沒有見通過67 案並委員結辦理沒有見通過68 案也是賴委員的 減列100萬年這邊改凍5%減20萬"},{"start":9144.349,"end":9152.299,"text":"簡略二十萬科目自行調整通過六十九案通商沒有見通案處理七十案改組協議"},{"start":9154.434,"end":9167.061,"text":"沒有意見通過70案主席亦作文書修正沒有意見就修正通過72案主席亦有沒有意見就照案通過接下來我們就換衛福部好 謝謝"},{"start":9216.886,"end":9226.433,"text":"現在進行衛生福利部主管在這邊介紹列席的首長衛生福利部部長薛瑞炎先生"},{"start":9228.955,"end":9232.557,"text":"七十三案改組決議,沒有見通過"},{"start":9252.253,"end":9274.09,"text":"那就是這一屆快要即將結束也沒看到衛福部針對我們一些工業區做流行病學調查那在明年的預算好像也沒看到那今天就是因為環境部環境部已經要把偏鄉汽機車減量"},{"start":9279.023,"end":9280.203,"text":"《中華民國1年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":9301.147,"end":9301.747,"text":"中央政府總預算"},{"start":9320.874,"end":9347.222,"text":"那你長期的怠惰啊讓這個供應區附近的這個疾病啊癌症這個癌症發生率死亡率一直增加降不下來然後你現在環境部又要去做這個增量可以抵換那這個怎麼說呢那麻煩衛福部跟環境部去溝通他們如果增量一定要有"},{"start":9348.403,"end":9373.522,"text":"公信科學的證明可以去增量這樣可以嗎?你們也要關心這個事情可以嗎?如果是屬於環境部業務的部分的話那你們流行病學調查要做阿對阿我們就是要針對因為過去的話在做所謂的流行病學調查收集的資料都是全國性的並沒有特別說對哪一種那你們全國性就看不出來阿這做"},{"start":9374.838,"end":9376.959,"text":"陳委員 我們盡量集中回到預算好不好是回到預算 今天就是預算的問題 他們就是不做啊"},{"start":9396.852,"end":9397.692,"text":"科技預算我們就可以來做安排"},{"start":9427.25,"end":9452.675,"text":"好 那請大家看74案改組決議沒有見通過75案改組決議沒有見通過76案凍結案 是不是 謝委員 是不是我們並委員會決議辦理對好 76案並委員會決議辦理好 74案通山 我們通案處理78案檢列3百萬年 賴大委員"},{"start":9455.444,"end":9481.105,"text":"那個是不是委員同意我來 委員同意那個改山一百萬好 改山 改為山 減列一百萬年好 那沒有意見通過七十九案 也是代大委員的 來我也是同意 同意三五十萬 二十改為減列五十萬 那沒有意見通過都自行調整啦好 自行 科目都自行調整啦齁來 八十案改組結議 沒有意見通過"},{"start":9484.041,"end":9487.183,"text":"來﹖81案改組結議沒有見通過﹖82改組結議沒有見通過﹖83案凍結60萬元﹖要不要併委員接辦禮"},{"start":9494.009,"end":9497.131,"text":"委員改組結議改組結議沒有見通過84案改組結議沒有見通過85案改組結議沒有見通過86案改組結議沒有見通過87"},{"start":9515.279,"end":9516.92,"text":"衛福部要不要編預算去做普遍肺腺癌篩檢?"},{"start":9529.46,"end":9557.068,"text":"現在這還是全國性的就是說這些低劑量的CT這一個部分的話我們是可以逐步的再夠擴大但是我們不一定會說針對哪一個地方可不可以先針對工業區鄰近的先做可以嗎因為這樣的目標不是那麼明確那你是住在北部對不對你就不重視現在中共業區附近的污染啊我家是在南部啦"},{"start":9558.052,"end":9558.112,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9582.964,"end":9584.465,"text":"有限的資源一定是全國普遍去做,如果發現說哪一個地區有比較高的話,我們就要做處理"},{"start":9601.781,"end":9624.879,"text":"要先骨片做了之後 如果是工業區的人那邊的確是問題比較多的 我們再深入去做啦那邊癌症比較多難道不應該先做嗎那邊空氣污染PM2.5比較高難道不應該先做嗎PM2.5是一級致癌物欸一級致癌物欸PM10也是一級致癌物欸 不該先做嗎好"},{"start":9628.312,"end":9652.193,"text":"這個理由不夠強嗎換劉思芳委員講話 因為她有舉手了對 因為我也在中南部我當然會非常重視剛剛陳委員講的這個聲音我建議部長是這樣回應就是說有關於工業區附近有一些譬如說致癌的物質比較強的話在衛福部的立場上面你們當然會配合科技部但是衛福部的主管也有人會去出席全國科技會議"},{"start":9653.234,"end":9653.674,"text":"好 我們回到預算好不好"},{"start":9678.438,"end":9693.766,"text":"回到預算我們就請88案就3減50萬賴大偉就3減50萬 減裂50萬賴委員不換 沒賴大偉沒有意見就通過89案改組決議 沒有意見通過90案改組決議 沒有意見通過91 92 93 94 95 96 97都是改組決議 沒有意見就全部通過啦好啦 98案"},{"start":9707.694,"end":9712.297,"text":"凍結98案改組結議沒有見通過99案凍結10萬元並101案那101案也是改凍結10萬元那這兩案就沒有見通過100案就改組結議那沒有見通過好來"},{"start":9737.5,"end":9760.93,"text":"102 組結議104 組結議"},{"start":9762.442,"end":9762.962,"text":"105 文字修正106 組結議107 組結議108 組結議"},{"start":9781.884,"end":9785.107,"text":"一百零九組結議一百一一零組結議一一一組結議一一二組結議一一三組結議"},{"start":9807.659,"end":9817.902,"text":"好 那就文字修正修正通過已經有文字修正 那委員也同好 那就文字修正就修正通過有文字修正沒有就修正通過"},{"start":9836.907,"end":9846.051,"text":"市長 特殊工業區建議還是要趕快做流行病學調查如果說工業區那麼多然後CT的檢查還是要優先排我想衛福部你們都是專業"},{"start":9866.499,"end":9878.279,"text":"我們中南部如果早期發現早期治療這樣子也可以顧全很多家庭避免這種後續疾病嚴重發生的時候影響家計"},{"start":9880.336,"end":9880.516,"text":"主席"},{"start":9902.22,"end":9923.792,"text":"一二二主決議有沒有意見 遵照辦理 照案通過一二三主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二四主決議有文字修正沒有意見就修正通過一二五主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二六主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二七主決議 遵照辦理 照案通過一二八主決議 保留"},{"start":9927.013,"end":9928.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9953.893,"end":9957.614,"text":"我們建議修正文字傳公眾人物於公開場所稀釋加熱菸這樣修正"},{"start":9967.591,"end":9969.312,"text":"副市長副市長副市長副市長副市長"},{"start":9982.737,"end":10009.498,"text":"改成不要寫名字,但是等一下還有另外一個案子,你們要特別在那邊寫名字等一下啦,等一下啦,這個我先改一下先文字修正好不好,OK好,130組決議,那文字修正,那沒有意見就修正通過來,131組決議有沒有意見建議是修正文字有修正文字"},{"start":10011.021,"end":10011.802,"text":"有修正文字"},{"start":10034.198,"end":10048.345,"text":"好 民運建築室 暫停一下啦暫停一下啦你怎麼不問薛一鳳書記長 這個都是他蓋章的 你要尊重一下132啦 131啦131啦 131啊 131啊他說有修改文字 有嗎不是 你那是132啦 131 現在"},{"start":10068.924,"end":10069.124,"text":"131保留132組決議"},{"start":10090.077,"end":10092.579,"text":"132組決議文字修正,那就修正通過133組決議有沒有意見文字修正"},{"start":10119.124,"end":10142.15,"text":"部長 有關這個新冠的這些打了疫苗那有些死啦 有些重傷害我記得我在總諮詢的時候你答應我兩年內要處理阿你到底什麼時候要處理完阿那個六千 六千 那六千件在當時總諮詢的時候那六千件已經處理了"},{"start":10144.78,"end":10169.233,"text":"對 我們黨團開了六七次記者會啦 你在總諮詢答應我們了 那什麼時候要處理完人家死了死 傷了傷 那就趕快委員報告我們大概最晚明年九月底前天可以申完 那我目前大概每兩個禮拜會審查一次那每次會審查大概一百五十個案件 那我們大概一個月大概可以審查三百案"},{"start":10171.836,"end":10198.181,"text":"目前已經處理了大概6、7千案大概7千案左右那還有6千案對不對不不不我們總共大概是9千案我的各位委員報告我當時在總質詢答應的時候那時候就是6千件所以6千件已經處理的差不多但是陸陸續續後面還有新增的案子所以我們剛剛我們同仁說到明年9月大概可以把接下來賴委員有舉手來好 謝謝"},{"start":10200.262,"end":10209.712,"text":"委員長和各位先進為了一個選民不亂就是六千案裡面的"},{"start":10210.902,"end":10233.835,"text":"他送進去喔 超過一年啊 沒有人理啊很可憐的 他就說他很弱勢 你說六千的處理完了 結果敢問政總召喚咧 這樣欺騙他就來找我 我們傳給你們 就都沒消息他一年多了 放一年多了 一年多了 他腦部啪啪的死去啊"},{"start":10235.253,"end":10238.254,"text":"一年多不是新增了,已經放一年多了,舊的,舊的,歸案"},{"start":10259.167,"end":10259.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":10289.07,"end":10289.25,"text":"那就謝謝了"},{"start":10308.078,"end":10335.311,"text":"總統最後一句了齁我覺得剛才部長回答得非常好我希望你的回答就是真的針對疫苗打了已經往生死掉的這些人真的按照你講的你的承諾去把他簽一遍一定超過一年的超過一段時間快點給人家啦到底怎麼樣結果趕快出來要先講清楚不然這樣謝謝人家很辛苦又拖久了很辛苦的啦"},{"start":10337.21,"end":10337.65,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10359.912,"end":10372.791,"text":"修正文字沒有意見就修正通告135也是跟剛才133一樣就是疫苗的受害者的審議我們可以"},{"start":10374.674,"end":10398.471,"text":"就是說在這個依法的這個上面做稍微的修正但是我們還是希望說整個疫苗受害者不只是死亡的在施打疫苗其實還有一些症狀性的受害者那也希望我們衛福部可以重寬重塑認定緊述給予所有疫苗施打的受害者給他們救助"},{"start":10399.865,"end":10421.662,"text":"曾仲章其實部長我覺得政府不應該替或者說這些受害者太多的計較了我沒有記錯的話有因果關係的比例很低對不對 多少 講一下如果確定因果關係的多少我請問"},{"start":10423.993,"end":10450.319,"text":"那有因果關係的比例大概確實是比較低 不過因為他們如果有5%左右但是我們現在的補償是如果沒有辦法判斷有因果關係的時候還會補啊你叫衛福部嘛 你不要跟這些人受害者太多的計較貝兆宜你們對高端啊 太好啦"},{"start":10451.803,"end":10477.424,"text":"他疫苗走不出去連最近我給你調的資料流感疫苗啊部長流感疫苗我們採購幾家四家四家講一下東陽、高端、國光還有一個是賽諾菲對我重複一下啦他就是有申請了嘛"},{"start":10479.122,"end":10489.845,"text":"國光 戰鬥會 東洋 跟高端 對不對那為什麼人家不打高端 人在哪裡這四家喔 在採購法排序的話"},{"start":10499.631,"end":10519.785,"text":"順序你們唸一下 民眾很清楚第一名當然是國光 第二是塞諾菲 第三是東陽 第四是高端高端 現在原名叫高端有人要煮就好了喔那好事好了啦沒有啦 目前沒有出案了所以你們對趙宜 我要講個結論對趙宜蔡政府百般客戶高端"},{"start":10529.895,"end":10549.757,"text":"啊 從那個疫苗 那個當時的這些COVID-19的疫苗的購買 到現在的流感疫苗的購買百般啦對高端有夠好 但是對一般民眾受害者 你的因果關係還個位數"},{"start":10551.994,"end":10576.803,"text":"阿 要等那麼久部長 你能不能同意阿第一個 剛剛我們署長講了嘛 從速從寬嘛 從簡阿 是不是這樣這個就是我們現在努力的目標 所以剛剛有報告過其實我們現在每個月的 開舊審查案件的時候已經是非常 非常加速你現在叫加速阿 結果你的有因果關係還是 那個 集團署現在比例多少"},{"start":10577.883,"end":10605.91,"text":"有因果關係大概是5%左右 不過我們確實就是用重寬重縮重減的一個方式來做一些核定 不過我們還是要尊重專家的一些還是要尊重專業的一個意見 來做一些判斷 是不是有因果關係好我不是質詢 我請教 因為有醫生告訴我說今年的流感疫苗 抓不到"},{"start":10607.085,"end":10612.411,"text":"跟委員報告目前疫苗的採購大概都是參考世界衛生組織公佈的疫苗株"},{"start":10631.769,"end":10654.094,"text":"跟今年的一個感染的病毒株是相符合的這個在我們實驗室有做過相關的一些認證所以今年如果有打疫苗的話就可以有效的防止今年的一個流感的疫情好那我們接下來謝謝大家我們現在1359剛才就是說修正通過嘛我們就修正通過1361有沒有意見修正"},{"start":10658.198,"end":10680.557,"text":"有修正,文字修正,沒有意見就修正通過修正的部分只有加四個字,報告主席只有加四個字,就是在原要求衛福部文字修正通過就好啦好來,137主決議,有沒有意見?遵照辦理好,沒意見就通過"},{"start":10682.498,"end":10698.424,"text":"138 主決議 遵照辦理 沒意見 召喚通過139 主決議 遵照辦理 召喚通過140 主決議 遵照辦理 召喚通過141 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 修正通過142 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 修正通過143 主決議 文書修正 沒意見 就修正通過144 主決議"},{"start":10705.246,"end":10717.592,"text":"文書修正沒有意見就修正通過145主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過146主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過147主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過148主決議"},{"start":10726.104,"end":10726.484,"text":"主決議主決議"},{"start":10748.326,"end":10750.307,"text":"提案人看一下提案人看一下"},{"start":10777.759,"end":10800.827,"text":"好來 那就暫時保留啦齁 這個暫時保留 等一下回頭再來好來149案主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過150主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過151主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過152主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過153主決議 有做文作修正 沒有意見就修正通過154主決議"},{"start":10803.359,"end":10805.184,"text":"有文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":10812.668,"end":10815.129,"text":"有文字的修正那大家沒有意見的話我們就修正通過"},{"start":10841.582,"end":10841.602,"text":"162組結議163組結議164組結議165組結議166組結議167組結議168組結議169組結議164啊"},{"start":10869.872,"end":10870.292,"text":"我們接受很多的團體的陳情"},{"start":10886.852,"end":10886.912,"text":"169主席"},{"start":10911.462,"end":10913.143,"text":"有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告"},{"start":10930.204,"end":10947.316,"text":"173 組結議遵照辦理來 召喚通過那接下來 174 改組結議沒有見通過175 檢列賴大委員檢列185改凍結百分之五委員同意改凍結百分之五好那175 就改為凍結百分之五提書面報告提書面報告好 來176"},{"start":10958.904,"end":10979.715,"text":"修正 改組決議啦176 蛤 是不是 併委員會決議辦理就好可以啦 好 已經改啦 組決議好 來 沒有見通過177 通商 通案辦理178 通商 通案辦理179 通商 通案辦理180 併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通過181 凍結五分之一改組決議 這是併委員會決議辦理 已經改了嗎"},{"start":10989.459,"end":10991.32,"text":"改組協議182通3科目通案辦理183並委員會協議辦理184檢定100萬年"},{"start":11005.79,"end":11016.396,"text":"改檢列10萬年沒有見通過185通3我們就通案處理186並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過187並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過188通3我們通案辦理189改組結議沒有見通過190通3通案辦理191"},{"start":11033.787,"end":11039.89,"text":"剪列80萬元有沒有意見改為剪列20萬元沒有意見就通過192案改凍結藥裝管理工作50萬元沒有意見通過"},{"start":11051.616,"end":11056.657,"text":"193改組結議沒有見通過194改組結議沒有見通過195改組結議沒有見通過196改組結議沒有見通過197通三通案處理198通三通案處理199減類100萬年有沒有意見改組結議啦好不好"},{"start":11078.054,"end":11081.079,"text":"總共才900多萬你檢列100萬怎麼活得下去兩組決議"},{"start":11089.648,"end":11107.332,"text":"因為昨天有去委員辦公室那邊有溝通,辦公室這邊是說因為這個是跟速發部的案子是相關的,所以委員這邊是說是希望能夠保留速發部已經投訂了"},{"start":11110.516,"end":11129.543,"text":"蘇發部已經合理沒有所謂到外國去備援了嘛用蘇發部的講法那就是這個備援系統一定要在國內不可以到國外沒有錯蘇發部確實明年度的預算就是在國內"},{"start":11139.506,"end":11155.874,"text":"在通案上面也有處理是改組協議嗎沒有改組協議就是裡面的文字就是並跟那個訴發部一樣寫法啦好那就改組協議好沒有建議通過200就通案處理怎麼樣那個200案跟199是同樣的都是那個訴發部的計畫"},{"start":11166.121,"end":11174.369,"text":"但是他因為通商就通案處理他因為屬於通商的科目那201組決議有做文件修正沒有意見就修正通過202組決議有沒有意見要遵照辦理"},{"start":11181.215,"end":11182.996,"text":"203屬於通商科目204改組結議205改組結議206改組結議207組結議有做文字修正208組結議有遵照辦理"},{"start":11205.453,"end":11214.758,"text":"209 檢列八十萬元有沒有改?委員同意改檢列十萬元209 改為檢列十萬元 沒有見通過210 改組結役 沒有見通過211 有沒有改?有修正是凍結兩百萬"},{"start":11230.868,"end":11231.948,"text":"212、213兩個都是通3,我們就通案處理"},{"start":11257.559,"end":11275.515,"text":"1213我不同意部長我想就教一下這個是大概針對那個托嬰中心的監視錄影設備的設置管理要求要強制設定可是這個因為我們現在的法令沒有監管監管雲的這個相關的法律的依據"},{"start":11276.055,"end":11299.05,"text":"那這個還有一些他們這些幼教業者老師他們有一些他們在個人的肖像或者是資安保護上他們有一些不同的意見那對於這個因為這些監視攝影的設備的設置齁其實你們的管理還是要求業者自行管理所以在管理上其實還是有一些漏洞那針對這個部分業者的意見你們這邊怎麼看"},{"start":11300.974,"end":11317.354,"text":"這個部分其實是這樣,第一個就是說,我們要保護的這些幼兒,因為他自己不會說明說他有沒有受到一些虐待或不當對待所以我們還是基於保護這個幼兒的一個角度出發"},{"start":11318.115,"end":11345.242,"text":"那第二個過去許多案件那的確有設了監視器但是當案件有這種投訴出來的時候我們去做調查的時候就調不到他的影像所以我們才說希望就是說這些的話能夠上傳到一個雲裡面去的話那就能夠代為做這種影像的保存而不會就是說出事的時候要調查他保存的那個期限"},{"start":11348.845,"end":11367.443,"text":"但是對於他這個4-603號解釋因為現在其實老實講他們這些脫陰脫幼的幼教業者他們其實在招聘師資的這個缺工的問題是非常大那這會不會造成一些寒蟬效應因為他們包含就是說他們認為他們的隱私權跟人性尊嚴他們應該要受到憲法22條的保障"},{"start":11369.105,"end":11392.958,"text":"那對於他們這個實際的監管雲端儲存因為現在其實資訊外流甚至駭客的問題非常嚴重那這個是他們會對於他們從業人員會擔心的在這方面有沒有相關的保護機制或是相關的配套機制還是後面的這個針對雲端資料監管的法令的相關的一個修法的討論"},{"start":11394.018,"end":11415.641,"text":"這部分的話跟委員報告其實在法律上面都已經規定說這一些都必須要設這些監視器監視器是一個資料的保存保護但是那個保存就是我剛剛解釋的現在的話經常就是他們業者自行保存保存的部分沒有問題嘛現在要求嘛但是要怎麼樣落實稽查"},{"start":11416.161,"end":11416.321,"text":"資料雲端保護"},{"start":11431.713,"end":11450.623,"text":"包含這些一些私密影像的保護其實現在都是民眾最害怕那加上這些托嬰托幼的這些業者其實他們這種寒蟬消音因為現在少子女化如果是國安危機其實也要保護他們這些工作的一個權益但如果造成他這個行業恐慌的時候其實對於他們在招募上也是有很大的困擾"},{"start":11452.404,"end":11473.682,"text":"這兩點,第一點就是說當我們選擇這些雲的業者的時候,那一定是要好好能夠被我們所監督的也就是說他的資安的保護必須要是足夠的,這是第一點那第二點的話,我舉個例子給委員做參考"},{"start":11474.723,"end":11493.87,"text":"過去在20年前我們希望說消防隊的救護車上面的話去裝這監視器那時候大部分的消防人員是反對的那現在的話是他們要求要裝原因是什麼在當時在救護車上面做這些救護工作"},{"start":11495.01,"end":11523.399,"text":"那時候他們比較沒有信心那我覺得你這個社會的溝通業者的溝通這個要做好然後相關的法源跟政令的配套機制要能夠落實不然我覺得這會造成很多這個社會的分裂但是我是覺得這個還是應該要完整的來去做這兩個案子是並一案你們兩個都有提案沒關係我保留好了兩個案兩個案都是同事啊我這案我保留齁那那個沒有 社會事務委員他先走"},{"start":11524.919,"end":11553.739,"text":"我想要針對 其實剛才我們林維周委員跟民眾黨的黨團提案 直接凍結 因為我覺得說當然你們說的是對 希望說用一個 把監視影像放在雲端 但是其實我們可以看到過去衛福部的業者 你們委託的業者 因為你們也沒有辦法完全的控管"},{"start":11554.56,"end":11574.051,"text":"那業者會發生什麼樣的情況其實你們也不清楚那未來我們把這些幼兒以及幼保的崇教人員的影像的這些權利都交給你們衛福部然後來產生一個監管員來統一處理的時候未來如果這些影像發生什麼問題"},{"start":11578.113,"end":11598.697,"text":"在所有的數位發展的法令上面都沒有辦法做到完全的監管尤其是在我們政府部門的資料的外洩上面其實我們現在也沒有辦法完全有效的解決在沒有辦法完全有效的解決之前"},{"start":11599.977,"end":11604.538,"text":"因為我們兩岸是同樣這個內容針對這個內容不是 我們不希望是保留保留的話就是只是去表決而已我們不希望是這樣子"},{"start":11629.003,"end":11654.953,"text":"這個案子是這樣現在法律的規定是所有的推嬰中心都要設監視器該設的地方都要設包括那個嬰兒車上面都會設監視器而且有規定他這個硬碟要保留多久這個都有法律規定如果業者沒有按照這個法律規定沒有設監視器或是他的硬碟沒有保存多久都有罰則啦"},{"start":11657.094,"end":11681.06,"text":"他要被罰的違法的違規的所以會被罰現在這筆2.6億的預算是要做什麼呢他要把它弄一個全國的監視雲就是說把所有各地的各個業者這個拖音中心的硬碟再摳一次然後放在雲端"},{"start":11681.9,"end":11682.921,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11711.8,"end":11737.125,"text":"2.6億"},{"start":11739.71,"end":11765.364,"text":"幾乎都是在做雲端我在為完委員會 我很清楚另外每年還要花管理費管理費是縣市政府又要撥上千萬幾千萬的管理去管理雲端所以縣市政府態度上也沒有很支持現在大家最擔心的是家長"},{"start":11768.159,"end":11795.155,"text":"家長認為說我的小孩子在那邊托嬰中心你知道的要幫忙洗澡拔屎拔尿通通看到那這些東西都要把它集中在雲端萬一有駭客本來分散的資料還比較安全一點你現在把它全國集中駭客只要到那個雲端駭進去就像我們最近看到駭客這樣一列出來通通"},{"start":11796.135,"end":11800.888,"text":"被看到所以反而危險其中的資料有比較安全嗎對駭客來講喔"},{"start":11803.291,"end":11826.859,"text":"集中對駭客最好他只要突破這個監視雲他就全部看到了所以這個有比他安全嗎所以這個是被質疑的我的建議啦 我的建議就是說先凍結然後專案報告之後公聽會開完大家比較有共識之後解凍也不要去刪除他全數凍結"},{"start":11830.72,"end":11831.12,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11849.955,"end":11852.517,"text":"那是我們要面對這個事情來好好討論一下"},{"start":11872.193,"end":11886.736,"text":"耳哨前五議法第七條之一已經立法通過 一定要監視 要錄影 三十天 沒有錯吧但是你要很了解 常常很多糾紛 孩子沒要講話啦 孩子沒要講話很多糾紛 學校常常有這種糾紛 以後要錄影帶 叫不到"},{"start":11896.188,"end":11912.789,"text":"還是一樣 它調不到 派息沒有錄到 好像被重視過所以這種現象你要了解這是一體兩面的家長對這個要求是很高的你只要站在幼兒的立場上 那是一部分這兩個部分都要考慮"},{"start":11915.392,"end":11932.311,"text":"這大家要慎重來考慮這個事情這可以前途嗎?我先問一下這2.6億都是用在這個方面嗎?不是吧?是,跟委員報告2.6億就是因為要處理1500多家的所以現在要把它上到雲端去嗎?它集中起來,雲端起來集中起來"},{"start":11935.267,"end":11937.049,"text":"平常不可以看 有糾紛才會掉下來"},{"start":11953.502,"end":11974.509,"text":"這個都是很嚴重的公共議題現在很多縣市都開始做了 都有做縣市才有做 台中 台北 新北都自己做了他不相信學校 他只能先生來做因為按這邊麻煩嘛 大家在那現在180家已經做了 你要把它全部停下來嗎"},{"start":11975.709,"end":11990.829,"text":"我覺得大家要好好考慮一下這個沒有說違憲不違憲的問題還沒有再講這很重要公共利益的問題所以大家要忍心想一想我知道他沒有去想要陳情但是"},{"start":11993.092,"end":12007.988,"text":"所以現在全國同意來做嘛然後再引斷啊你說會被盜的你平常都有被盜啊好像說被重置的機會非常大 待會就會被重置那要小心一點啦"},{"start":12011.411,"end":12033.51,"text":"好謝謝院長謝謝院長我講一下這個案子啦原則上我覺得我不知道現場狀況怎麼樣但是我自己是三個小孩子父親我小朋友也就是很多都是學齡前的那我也很了解這個家長的心情我覺得現在最大的問題是什麼就是說你這個"},{"start":12034.07,"end":12034.91,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":12052.455,"end":12071.302,"text":"有小朋友你可能在幼稚園的時候老師當然就是說你可能有換尿布甚至是有一些他們的這個睡午覺或是他們有一些私人影像這個你的資料保護到底有沒有辦法能夠落實剛剛上一個協商的時候光那個法務部暗網的問題這種假訊息的問題駭客的問題"},{"start":12075.163,"end":12094.475,"text":"只要發生的時候 各部會甩鍋來甩鍋去阿你沒有辦法管理阿 這個現在是這個問題阿你要求他們做當然沒有做業者一定會有他不同的反應可是問題是你管理上有問題的時候這些個人資料的保護 資安的問題還有肖像的問題甚至會不會拿來用其他的"},{"start":12097.057,"end":12097.217,"text":"主席"},{"start":12116.694,"end":12132.831,"text":"實際的這個整個物資源的整個整天的行程你們監管的範圍在哪裡這個其實都沒有跟民眾講清楚其實對民眾來講是資訊安全保護的問題我覺得這個是第一個第二個就是彼此信任的問題"},{"start":12133.692,"end":12133.912,"text":"社會溝通和業者"},{"start":12159.355,"end":12188.273,"text":"如果你問我個人的意見我覺得是整個政府的 蘇菲政府的資料保護的一個總體性的一個一個機制的建制從法令上 從系統上 從技術上阿這個部分 蘇發部有沒有角色是不是也應該來去做相關的一個討論那我這邊的案子是凍結我們是用凍結案啦齁那我們認為說說我們也建議還是把它凍結做一個專案報告來說明清楚再來繼續執行接下來劉蘇安委員 然後再謝宥安委員"},{"start":12189.013,"end":12216.363,"text":"我們兩個黨團提到的都是屬於凍結案就表示說其實對於那個社發部所提的這個部分社福部所提的為家屬所提的部分還是會覺得要遵照我們原來的那個兒少權益保護法77條之一來處理那我們也了解到有家長跟社工或者是說跟這些幼保老師之間的一個矛盾今天我們所質疑的部分不應該完全是由衛福部來一手承擔為什麼呢"},{"start":12220.385,"end":12227.629,"text":"新北市、台北市、台中市、台南市、台中縣政府已經都在執行對於各支法的保障或是對肖像權的保障這個部分當然要要求他們做得很清楚所以我們也不會反對凍結"},{"start":12237.594,"end":12238.515,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分：完整會議"},{"start":12258.186,"end":12279.424,"text":"那不管未來在立法院要舉行公聽會或是要找那個訴發部一起來討論的話呢其實我們都不會反對讓他可以更完整的保護我們的小朋友但是也可以來保障這些托幼老師的工作權這兩者之間我們要取一個中間的平衡點那你如果全數凍結的話根本就是不同意這樣做嘛"},{"start":12279.764,"end":12283.466,"text":"其實我覺得我們是立法院我們不應該過度的保護就是說為了要保護行政院的預算"},{"start":12305.097,"end":12309.483,"text":"其實我們大家都知道現在台灣的社會裡面資安的人才根本不夠用"},{"start":12320.317,"end":12342.786,"text":"我們在討論私人企業的各自外洩例如說有一些商城網站的各自外洩的時候我們聽到數位發展部他給予我們的是說他沒有辦法去管到私人部門的這個資安的問題而我們現在行政部門的資安人員也嚴重不足的情況下"},{"start":12344.087,"end":12344.187,"text":"主席"},{"start":12369.059,"end":12389.106,"text":"當業者沒有辦法保護的時候我們再去問數位發展部我們再去問相關部門的時候那他們怎麼樣子說明呢他們是不是又推給了我們數位人才不足的情況那如果我們數位資安人才目前整個整體社會都是嚴重不足的情況下我們是不是應該把這一個"},{"start":12391.027,"end":12412.818,"text":"所有小孩子以及幼教人員的監管群的設立問題我們應該暫緩實施即便是各縣市政府已經也在實施的委辦那我們是不是應該是目前委辦的情況未來作為中央政府要做這整個監管群的設置的這個相關的討論問題我認為這是可以討論的空間"},{"start":12415.939,"end":12437.351,"text":"好 那個 劉思汪委員劉思汪委員發言以後 如果還沒有共識 我們就保留啦因為大家沒有共識當然就保留嘛保留等到第二輪我們會提那個終極的建議修正案剛剛那個謝委員所提到的部分這是所有的五個縣市政府裡面"},{"start":12438.411,"end":12459.766,"text":"只有一個台南市民進黨的政府 其他都是國民黨籍的政府我知道 我是說是讓他們先辦理情況嘛他們現在在辦理是根據所說的這個錄影的保存是30天那現在就是說未來如果要當成額虐等於是觸犯到刑法裡面的虐待兒童的時候你必須要有完整的證據 而不是被這些人就把他洗掉"},{"start":12460.426,"end":12461.346,"text":"可是問題是現在目前就是說整體我們"},{"start":12484.355,"end":12498.445,"text":"整個社會裏面 資安的人員就是不夠嘛我看沒有啦 現在就要錄影了嘛先保留 晚一點再回來討論啦好不好 因為我們還有一個建議只是要資安更保護 要上雲端而已我提一個建議啦我們後面還有50個案我要提一個建議啦其實我們"},{"start":12508.112,"end":12536.372,"text":"不是說要把他刪減所以希望說充分討論你看現在大家都知道說各縣市也在做把他集中起來弄等於是新北市雲已經有一個這樣的方式現在是要把他弄全國在一起的監視雲有這個必要嗎還是就分散在各縣市你去補助各縣市做他們的監管雲"},{"start":12537.493,"end":12538.936,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12553.584,"end":12578.35,"text":"那個當前80%嘛然後各黨各黨提出報告各黨總選卷自己負責但是要一題兩題的問題大家要小心一點我只是希望充分討論業者啦 家長啦這個問題不是只有今天存在的存在很久了他們一直在跟衛福衛福溝通"},{"start":12580.411,"end":12581.952,"text":"暫時保留下午再討論我們還有討論的機會"},{"start":12596.385,"end":12603.55,"text":"212和213就暫時保留下午就討論214就是改為凍結5%沒有一件事通過接下來我們就環境部主管"},{"start":12639.618,"end":12642.219,"text":"剩下50案處理完這就結尾了"},{"start":12664.916,"end":12686.7,"text":"現在我們就環境部主管環境部主管我先介紹列席的所長環境部部長薛富聖先生介紹完畢那請大家看215案改為組結議沒有見通過216案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":12692.503,"end":12695.186,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12710.188,"end":12712.889,"text":"公務委員．立法院黨團協商．立法院黨協商．立法院黨協商．立法院黨協商"},{"start":12733.334,"end":12733.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":12748.528,"end":12748.748,"text":"村委員的意見"},{"start":12771.614,"end":12780.438,"text":"一定要想辦法做到好 那請看217案 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過218案 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過219 改組決議沒有見通過220 併委員決議辦理沒有見通過221 改凍結250萬也沒有見通過院長我講一下院長我講一下那個剛剛他已經保留了沒有 我要講一下你保留就"},{"start":12800.946,"end":12801.407,"text":"2222那個案子吧"},{"start":12819.264,"end":12845.069,"text":"那我今天質詢也是說報告可以公佈那你剛剛也說好了嘛對不對那是不是可以進行是針對當事人剛剛的執行的時候是針對當事人啦那有關前署長的那個部分就二二一案應該是保留吧因為在行政院那邊相當的案子已經保留了嘛沒有啊沒有保留啊行政院事責案有保留啦"},{"start":12847.523,"end":12867.184,"text":"二一保留沒有啊 二一為什麼要保留 請說明一下啊沒有要保留啊沒有共識就保留沒有啊 沒有共識 為什麼沒有共識 這個信箱還這麼嚴重本來就是要調查有什麼保留柯總長說明一下 你保留的原因是什麼"},{"start":12868.109,"end":12870.13,"text":"221保留 222改組結議沒有見通過 223改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":12893.48,"end":12903.949,"text":"224凍結二十分之一那文字修正那就有一件沒有一件通過222通商就通案處理"},{"start":12905.689,"end":12907.932,"text":"委員長我要講一下委員長我要講一下"},{"start":12924.532,"end":12925.714,"text":"沒有公訴保留有什麼問題呢"},{"start":12943.775,"end":12943.795,"text":"233改組決議234"},{"start":12970.72,"end":12987.706,"text":"剪列100萬元,那這個有沒有意見?有沒有?改動節5%那要不要提書面報告?提書面報告齁,那沒有意見就通過225改組結議,沒有意見通過235,抱歉抱歉,235改組結議沒有意見通過,236組結議有沒有意見?"},{"start":12994.65,"end":13022.91,"text":"剛剛221"},{"start":13023.411,"end":13035.696,"text":"那二一就是處理結案之後發布新聞稿那為什麼要保留 院長都看過了為什麼要保留沒有發布新聞稿那以前謝曉新的案子為什麼可以發布新聞稿那現在這個環保署我們的現在的政委我們這個案子發布新聞稿為什麼要保留親中商"},{"start":13049.421,"end":13049.601,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13071.954,"end":13073.095,"text":"在107年時任行政院"},{"start":13097.492,"end":13109.619,"text":"院長賴清德親自致左偉熙實地會刊．並宣布啟動左偉熙治理平台會議．預算無上限全力治理左偉熙陽城問題．歷經兩期計劃．投入21.7億元．左偉熙陽城已從106年．"},{"start":13121.076,"end":13122.438,"text":"59次降至117年僅兩次的成績"},{"start":13135.538,"end":13136.118,"text":"不要政策先導阿"},{"start":13171.437,"end":13180.64,"text":"我再調整一下好不好行政院長賴清德改成行政院可以嗎這樣就可以了行政院長賴清德改成行政院這樣可以嗎這是事實啊不要啦"},{"start":13192.378,"end":13196.4,"text":"107年時行政院宣布啟動不要有做選舉期間不要做這種"},{"start":13213.598,"end":13237.274,"text":"文字稍微矯正一下子可以我照你的你的文字是什麼我沒看到阿第二輪再講不可以嗎不可以不可以那怎麼辦那你上會我上會要成比例啦我不成比例我不要讓你再做政策宣導我講說事實阿你講說政策宣導之前的話我們文字稍微矯正總可以吧"},{"start":13239.555,"end":13240.255,"text":"任涵保留這不合理阿"},{"start":13270.205,"end":13270.766,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13295.11,"end":13298.514,"text":"二十五之一二十一已經宣布了"},{"start":13316.701,"end":13338.026,"text":"第二輪再來談第二輪再來談文字修正通過文字修正通過245之一246 併文人決議辦理沒有意見通過247 改組決議沒有意見通過248 通商科目沒有意見通案辦理249 併文人決議辦理沒有意見通過250 組決議有沒有意見文字修正"},{"start":13344.958,"end":13351.282,"text":"文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過251主決議 召喚通過252主決議 召喚通過253主決議有文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過 254主決議 有文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過 255主決議"},{"start":13369.654,"end":13379.379,"text":"建議文字修正好文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過256通3通案處理257改組決議沒有意見通過258改凍結100萬元沒有意見通過259通3通案處理260改凍結100萬元那沒有意見就通過"},{"start":13394.647,"end":13410.995,"text":"261 文字組結議 文字修正 沒有意見修正通過262 組結議 有沒有意見 捐到辦理 263 組結議 捐到辦理 264 組結議 捐到辦理265 266 都是通3 我們通案處理267 組結議 有做文字修正 沒有意見修正通過268 組結議 有做文字修正 沒有意見修正通過"},{"start":13423.212,"end":13428.896,"text":"二五一有文字修正二五一有文字修正所以組結一文字修正通過部長二一你們有問題嗎叫二人再談"},{"start":13452.182,"end":13455.586,"text":"下午2點 看大家方便等一下 下午2點 關鍵性人物 我要示範一下"},{"start":13470.737,"end":13475.779,"text":"兩點有會議因為第二輪沒有那麼快喔兩點半好不好 讓你開開帥一個負責 什麼事情都排開"},{"start":13503.422,"end":13527.154,"text":"但是他們還是要溝通啦因為還要溝通 他們現在喔 國部會因為二輪一定要溝通溝通還差啦不然你來喔那明天喔 明天因為你第二輪結束嘛 對不對那有一頁要整理 所以原則上明天就沒有關係啦 禮拜一我們至少禮拜一要協商法案防護稅好不好禮拜一"},{"start":13529.332,"end":13530.453,"text":"委員會要給他們時間,他們都加班,很辛苦"},{"start":13547.307,"end":13560.514,"text":"法案協商 防護稅 拜帝來處理本來就通知大家禮拜二表決 所有人行人都安排下午兩點半 多溝通"},{"start":22098.136,"end":22122.124,"text":"各位先進,我們現在開始開會現在我們要進行的是有關於第二輪的就是行政院所屬及各部會相關預算的協商"},{"start":22126.127,"end":22140.727,"text":"在剛開始的時候就要先進行通案的部分那要進行之前我就先介紹一下列席的所長首先介紹行政院秘書長李秘書長李孟彥先生再來介紹"},{"start":22142.585,"end":22144.366,"text":"現在我們就開始針對通案第三案"},{"start":22170.916,"end":22189.34,"text":"通案第三案,大家要發表意見嗎?還是要文字修正通過?這個第三案有關於組結議的部分,行政委員所提的事務部的跨境備演的問題這個要重新改寫"},{"start":22200.707,"end":22214.072,"text":"說可以做文字修正是不是?對,文字修正反正很清楚,你們現在是怕反對誇之悲焉現在有一個小組曾經來討論這個事情明年度並沒有這個計畫選新組就好了至於蘇委部改的"},{"start":22228.632,"end":22246.742,"text":"我們沒有辦法接受你這樣改法,罪名都在罵我們,蔡政府做法顯然雙標沒那麼在看啊,怎麼偷跑之前啊整個文章在罵我們怎麼可以很清楚表達對於這個他們恐慌的部分,我們就沒有在做還是怎麼樣,這樣寫清楚就好了,好不好"},{"start":22250.307,"end":22271.479,"text":"好,你覺得故事的部分,我們可以不要?謾罵的文詞不要啦!沒有這回事啦!他這種做法顯然雙標,這種我可以同意啦!所以我不想只顧你們的,你要看看前面文嘛!你把國家賣掉,然後你只顧你的"},{"start":22276.04,"end":22276.581,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22298.192,"end":22301.135,"text":"第一段第二段全部改寫就不要了你就針對問題他們擔心你針對詞就回答清楚就好了"},{"start":22324.529,"end":22351.903,"text":"現在行政委合併已經沒有了,民進黨預算也沒有這個他也沒有把文字修訂拿來給我們啊是不是?我沒有看到啊,我看到的都...為什麼只有給民進黨團?我不是啊有沒有,來重新寫一個好不好前面沒有改,後面也改,他只有改最後一段"},{"start":22353.715,"end":22361.12,"text":"沒有文字修訂,他新的文字修訂我們都沒有拿到這個部分,其實的確行政院好像是昨天"},{"start":22378.103,"end":22400.788,"text":"大概13號啊13號才核定的啦所以我們在提案的時候他的確當時偷跑這是沒有錯的啦情勢變更了嘛但是昨天等於是昨天行政院才核定啦那不諱言這的確是有偷跑啦那另外一個部分大概105年的部分其實當時"},{"start":22407.268,"end":22421.733,"text":"趕快 是不是事劃部裡面趕快 有意見那個要劃掉就趕快劃出來 不然都要這樣耗著也不是辦法嘛我們就修改就提出來 把版本提出來修改一下"},{"start":22446.988,"end":22473.183,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":22479.929,"end":22483.29,"text":"這不是誰改的?這張原來是誰改的?這張呢?"},{"start":22521.359,"end":22536.85,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22550.803,"end":22566.408,"text":"那個第五行這邊留幾個字好不好就是第三行到跨境後備那其性質屬新興計劃這可以留下來嗎這性質新興計劃留下來"},{"start":22574.469,"end":22583.425,"text":"沒有問題啦反正星星大概明年沒有星星嘛沒有就是說基本上這一個東西的確是全新的啦嘿"},{"start":22588.967,"end":22614.923,"text":"那幾個留下來沒有關係但是我覺得也要說明一下就是說其實在這個計畫的核定剛才唐鳳部長可能不在我們在於就是像各個部會都有相關的計畫那對於這個雲端備份的相關的就是資訊還有資通的安全的部分那過去以往我們也討論過"},{"start":22617.164,"end":22629.814,"text":"在於資安的人才目前國內的確還是尚未不足的情況下我們過去在商業部門的這些資料的外洩部分我們也進行過相關的討論那好像"},{"start":22632.196,"end":22632.436,"text":"主席"},{"start":22651.127,"end":22652.588,"text":"我們轄下有行政法人、國家自通安全研究院﹚"},{"start":22675.989,"end":22693.365,"text":"自安院跟自安署不同的﹐就是它可以跟民間一起﹐好比像說去開辦自安長的訓練﹐去訂定職能等等﹐增強全民的自安意識等等﹐所以這部分是在我們行政法人來做﹐不過也想澄清一下﹐就是我們在明年就如同柯總召所說的﹐"},{"start":22694.045,"end":22694.825,"text":"市長要注意一下,就這樣"},{"start":22720.612,"end":22745.574,"text":"等一下 是不是因為現在我們還沒有上位清除我們是不是應該要請數位發展部你們把文字修正以後沒有 你剛才又重新念了一次重新是要加幾個字那他把重新的修正給大家看一下好不好恢復幾個字而已 屬新興計畫你都會加我們同意嗎可以啦"},{"start":22757.773,"end":22758.313,"text":"一個就是後面改專案"},{"start":22784.817,"end":22811.51,"text":"對新計劃服務然後專案啦好不好可以啊沒有關係可以啊反正越報告越清楚啦好OK吧要有特別唸一遍嗎還是就這樣唸一遍好不好因為又改了很多東西欸是不是應該要再唸一遍要精確啦對啊要精確啦我講一下啦就是剛才我們發表的部分嘛"},{"start":22812.677,"end":22838.925,"text":"把那個屬新興計畫加回去你姓氏屬新興加回去請蘇發部相應委員提出相應計畫之名稱、各年度提成及經費等信箱說明專案報告好不好專案報告這樣就好了好不好主協議主協議對來"},{"start":22842.574,"end":22843.135,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22862.13,"end":22862.93,"text":"處理完畢"},{"start":22887.967,"end":22896.992,"text":"大家沒有意見,讓唐後部長可以離開接下來我們就處理行政院主管的部分"},{"start":22903.588,"end":22925.554,"text":"內政委員會一半保留27案 溝通有結果現在有4個案 還剩下23案要處理行政院主管的部分 剛才已經有介紹 行政院秘書長在場李孟彥先生"},{"start":22943.143,"end":22952.786,"text":"第二幕第12案12案這邊是不是建議修改這個文字有在各位委員的桌上在哪裡然後"},{"start":22957.804,"end":22964.294,"text":"請行政院督促法務部及NCC一三個月內提出書面報告"},{"start":22966.451,"end":22987.929,"text":"目前這樣子的修正我們不會接受因為公益信託修法行政院這樣子不負責任遙遙無期那不能因為法律沒過就無視問題所以就是請行政院盤點各機關公益信託監管的實況就現況問題提出檢討對策"},{"start":22992.948,"end":23018.422,"text":"目前這個信託法的修正案已經在司法委員會所以司法委員會如果趕快審查不要主決議還是凍結這樣可以嗎文字目前那就勉強接受他原來有一個病案凍結就不要病案就獨立案好不好那就保留了好不好"},{"start":23019.514,"end":23047.841,"text":"那是不是保留再保留一下為什麼要保留呢就我們既同意文字就獨立案了就好啦你們要互相我覺得只是拿錢幣這樣子動不動就欺負小黨嘛那文字我們已經勉強接受那就是獨立修正啊我們剛剛不是說修正那現在就是維持我們的原來的凍結"},{"start":23051.98,"end":23063.15,"text":"陳督委你是希望凍結百分之十對不對那全部才一百二十九萬而已啊那我們降一點好了凍結十萬好了啊十萬塊原來十趴只有十二萬"},{"start":23074.824,"end":23077.547,"text":"原來只有凍結12萬你現在要提高到20萬凍結6萬可以嗎有啊有讓啦"},{"start":23094.465,"end":23095.906,"text":"第十二案 改為凍結六萬年"},{"start":23113.41,"end":23138.439,"text":"改組決議那主要文字的有一些修正就是專案報告改成書面報告那使得動資拿掉那21案有沒有問題有問題有問題來請那這個才就是這是民眾黨這邊提才動200萬那現在這個行政院這邊文字暢改不對啦你們這文字改了就把我們原意曲解了啦"},{"start":23139.952,"end":23140.492,"text":"文字改中心一點好不好"},{"start":23167.073,"end":23168.614,"text":"可不可以併案,原來併案50萬,併這個科目"},{"start":23189.932,"end":23190.493,"text":"委員多少 委員多少"},{"start":23208.642,"end":23226.47,"text":"委員會案是五十才五十啊行政院積極打詐不要說毫無自己成效但是也不能說已有成效成效待評估啦好不好我們不要分出有沒有成效我們說他應該積極打詐就好了"},{"start":23228.351,"end":23228.491,"text":"一百萬"},{"start":23256.371,"end":23257.492,"text":"二十一案"},{"start":23277.539,"end":23302.858,"text":"二十一案我確認一下二十一案就是凍結一百萬年提書面報告文字修正沒有意見就通過二十五案有文字修正主要是專案報告改成書面折成原住民委員會"},{"start":23304.892,"end":23317.382,"text":"好 那凍結的數目一樣嗎凍結的數目可不可以並按因為改組決議就把凍就改成組決議這總共一千三十凍凍五百是太多了吧"},{"start":23320.049,"end":23335.241,"text":"或是建議併案、併案凍結這個委員他還好像那個是不是行政院還沒有溝通因為沒有等到委員我跟他有約委員見面可是委員沒有給時間我們就處理了好不好因為這個還是保留"},{"start":23349.916,"end":23351.137,"text":"25案保留26案"},{"start":23380.496,"end":23395.869,"text":"有文字修正那看了一下修正的文字就是我們還是要動啦所以就是那我們不要並動啦我們還是要動一下這樣子那我們就動50要動一下站起來動一動就好了"},{"start":23405.24,"end":23405.38,"text":"26案 動50案"},{"start":23425.489,"end":23426.77,"text":"文字有送給各位委員的桌上"},{"start":23444.622,"end":23445.743,"text":"26案就是 文字修正 凍結50萬 沒有意見 通過"},{"start":23472.249,"end":23485.095,"text":"凍結那邊劃掉的再寫回去啊?就是文字修正裡面原來把凍結兩百萬劃掉,現在改成凍結五十萬那凍結五十萬讓我問問吧凍結五十萬讓我問問吧凍結五十萬讓我問問"},{"start":23503.445,"end":23522.373,"text":"為終止行政案前保障人權保障,讓節50萬,然後3個月提出書面報告提出研議修正草案,書面報告"},{"start":23538.052,"end":23538.453,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23550.496,"end":23569.354,"text":"文字修正就你們注意一下啦行政院跟你們去注意一下文字你修好了修好了好那就這樣文字沒有修好文字再請行政院給我們你剛剛修50萬那個再修給我們再給我們再修正動輒50萬再投在那邊就有了嘛你動輒200改50就結束了"},{"start":23579.298,"end":23581.22,"text":"對 再重新送一張簽名 好 謝謝"},{"start":23597.844,"end":23626.407,"text":"好,好,好,來,我們就...動五十萬嘛,齁動五十萬,嘿,我們就修正我們就修正嘛,好,OK來,二十九案,通山客戶,我們就...通案處理,可以嗎?在哪裡?在這一個併通山好,那沒意見就通過啦好,來,再來三十案"},{"start":23628.348,"end":23629.909,"text":"本來就是該做的事"},{"start":23647.805,"end":23673.072,"text":"我們只是希望說你們有一個書面報告而已嘛原來這個其實應該還好吧這個是不是可以改成組結議那就改成組結議那書面報告好不好原來就是應該其實這個應該是給我們這樣好不好專案的啦好不好因為這個其實本來就是應該其實連那個"},{"start":23676.251,"end":23702.732,"text":"之前都已經變為維線了嘛這個我們的個資保護不足的這個問題那現在我們這個個資保護委員會的這個獨立機關這樣的他整個是不是這樣可不可以就是說用書面報告然後動比如說兩百萬或一百萬好啊那就兩百萬好了好不好就書面報告你們已經也刪了幾個一些東西了嘛沒關係好"},{"start":23705.222,"end":23729.097,"text":"三十案齁 凍結兩百萬提書面報告好我們有一件就通過那個耐斯堡委員那個阿你們把他弄通山阿他是很堅持沒有剛好已經跟他溝通過了你有跟他溝通過嗎你確定確定因為他本來就是通山科目阿來不來已經沒有了本來就是通山科目"},{"start":23730.37,"end":23753.256,"text":"好 那第38案 主結議的第38案 主結議 有沒有意見那這個我們有提修改文字 因為裡面有提到一些說行政院有桃色風波啦 我想這個這個措辭 我們希望保留表決啦 這個要保留 要保留啦第38案"},{"start":23766.604,"end":23783.889,"text":"文字調整一下嘛是不是文字什麼樣我們有建議有一些文字的調整那就主決議那你調整那個在哪裡對啊文字調整一下沒關係啦那就照這樣通過好不好"},{"start":23788.249,"end":23812.054,"text":"好啦 調整一下啦這個還是先保留好不好 因為那個孟愷孟愷有說希望先保留沒有啦 因為其實信憑的業務信憑的委員會都現在都已經強化而且在正常的現狀那個時候信憑商會改了嘛所以其實這個不要有這麼多比較"},{"start":23814.615,"end":23831.522,"text":"觸目驚心的字眼 功能是一樣的我想38跟42其實都類似 42也是這個 其實他們都建議要表決委員啦 38 42先留著啦 先留著好不好已經斷掉了 沒有了"},{"start":23838.594,"end":23866.385,"text":"會有啦那就保留啦先保留啦先保留啦42我是建議因為42李建鈺他已經離職那現在性騷擾的調查也出來會對他追加做處分所以最後這些處分的結果也都會來跟各位報告所以是不是這個可以那處分結果已經出來了嘛也陸續他在提人憑"},{"start":23869.547,"end":23878.252,"text":"要結案了吧那我們是不是做了一下文字修正阿你是不是先保留我們做文字修正阿你把文字修正拿來好不好42我們現在42我們有42了38換過來"},{"start":23907.074,"end":23921.183,"text":"這樣啦,是12齁,其實漢堡署長並沒有包庇署下啦這個蚊子要調整一下,大家講一下沒有關係沒有包庇啦怎麼會沒包庇蚊子調整一下嘛而且這個案子已經處分了嘛沒有啊,沒有處分啊包庇也沒處分啊"},{"start":23935.785,"end":23962.431,"text":"他沒有包庇阿 我們在政治只有這一點而已阿你怎麼證明他沒包庇你怎麼證明他沒有包庇沒有人知道他有包庇阿我才敢說阿我們有一些修正的文字我們是不是現在印給大家在42案對阿 38案是不是文子調整"},{"start":23969.407,"end":23994.1,"text":"有一個有一個桃子和波沒有不斷 已經斷掉了好 四十二 這個文字調整好了嗎 在哪裡好 這樣休息一下好了 這樣調整好好好 休息一下 好啦好啦 氣溫不要弄壞了啦"},{"start":23996.272,"end":23999.716,"text":"院長你可不可以請各單位先趕快溝通文字"},{"start":24010.478,"end":24017.08,"text":"不然這樣時間會拖得很晚沒有說保留的文章保留他們有修的是不是要叫人幫忙發"},{"start":24189.753,"end":24191.093,"text":"請看46案46案我們有修正一些文字"},{"start":24218.567,"end":24224.241,"text":"如果沒有意見就這個主席就文字修正通過好不好在大家桌上"},{"start":24232.675,"end":24234.337,"text":"46案文字修正通過48案組結議"},{"start":24252.094,"end":24271.406,"text":"這個48案如果要修,可能只留前面三行,其他全部刪掉?那就保留啦,那就保留啦等一下等一下,我都叫一台,兩行可以不可以?38保留齁?25也是嘛齁?現在是48?"},{"start":24281.689,"end":24282.029,"text":"48保留齁好那請看49"},{"start":24294.679,"end":24295.699,"text":"前面那個投入14億那個就留著"},{"start":24322.472,"end":24343.888,"text":"他後面有兩三 有三行文字 做刪除文字修正通過好不好 結構沒有改好 五十案主決議 文字修正通過五十一案 主決議"},{"start":24346.075,"end":24373.16,"text":"五十一就是 裡面對於居住正義有很多負面的描述 包括大撒幣所以我們是建議這個還有圖利財團等等的文字五十二有修正一些文字 是不是請大家參閱這是針對中中紀念堂要不要測儀隊"},{"start":24376.618,"end":24398.071,"text":"我們希望後面的文字能夠維持具體規劃這個部分可以保留這樣子嗎?對,就是請行政院,則請文化部來提出這個中正紀念堂轉型的書面報告三個月內就是不要書面報告,就是維持具體規劃可以嗎?"},{"start":24400.334,"end":24401.755,"text":"我們希望有具體的規劃"},{"start":24424.189,"end":24448.852,"text":"可以嗎規劃如果規劃繼續存在也是具體嗎對啊就具體規劃就是存在等一下等一下這是文化部的案啊這文化部的案子沒關係那就保留好那就保留好因為這個中央經濟黨以後的下一波轉型爭議不一致怎麼清楚那個還有整個修法包括中央經濟黨組織條例那個整套的"},{"start":24449.815,"end":24476.713,"text":"其實我們實例的這個文字都很保守了啦那如果說總召連這樣都不願意具體規劃都不願意 那我們就是保留我是講的比較完整一點出產條例我不予以指的清楚嘛那後面還有中央進行組織條例很多同項在一定有一隊 你把一隊弄走 同項還在 重點是同項嘛"},{"start":24479.755,"end":24479.915,"text":"主席"},{"start":24503.92,"end":24508.344,"text":"這幾案?90案 動輒100萬一般行政跟他報告齁 因為中選會因為有會議所以打電話來請假跟他報告一下"},{"start":24533.762,"end":24542.446,"text":"這不在集堅守投票的事情是啥是90案嘛 是不是現在開始90案 凍結100萬這個就是說是我們黨這邊提的啦因為不在集這個是已經是講非常非常的久"},{"start":24551.889,"end":24574.287,"text":"沒有啦有啦現在哪有可以不在即高型補回了嗎高型補回了是吧跟大家報告就是有關監索涉及者的這個投票最高型是已經補回掉原來這個北高型的裁定那許多地方就許多高等行政法院現在也是做"},{"start":24574.887,"end":24575.287,"text":"所以9393才是在講監獄的"},{"start":24609.148,"end":24620.472,"text":"對 但是90案是整個不在籍 不在籍這件事情其實現在我看我們不是只講監獄而已 是整體的 現在還是沒有辦法能做"},{"start":24622.038,"end":24643.687,"text":"而且公投法上也叫我們做這件事還是不能做這個案90案我們是不是本黨團這邊還是保留了這個要立法完成才可以規劃我知道但是現在就是一直沒有看到行政院或者是中選會現在的這個法案在我們面證委員會因為都主審了審了以後他們後來就沒有細審了"},{"start":24644.927,"end":24646.048,"text":"為至今中協會能為啟動執行黨掌政協商"},{"start":24665.188,"end":24684.037,"text":"要求推動該立法完成這個我們還在委員會,還沒出委員會沒有關係,我們就一案而已,就保留一下好了不是,文整調整我們可以來談一下沒有關係嗎?不用了啦,我們這個93我們可以那個啦,不要了,那90的話我們就保留這一案"},{"start":24687.432,"end":24714.94,"text":"9393939393939393939393939393939393939393"},{"start":24715.922,"end":24724.326,"text":"內文沒有關係啦 不要凍結啦內文沒有關係 提出時分報告沒有問題啊要不就是照我們的不然就表決一下也沒關係 一案而已啊改組決議我們沒有問題啦就錯不在中選會"},{"start":24739.4,"end":24747.563,"text":"就是說這個是整體政府的啦這已經談了太久太久了啦大家也有期待啦我們還是去看表決一下沒關係才一樣而已啊"},{"start":24756.294,"end":24763.864,"text":"國會是自主的他們是獨立局官他們沒有辦法給我們機會反正是我們的行政院不送來我們是沒有辦法審的已經在審了"},{"start":24770.993,"end":24771.994,"text":"行政院有提院門嗎?有阿有嘛"},{"start":24788.154,"end":24789.515,"text":"國民黨是林偉超總召"},{"start":24818.294,"end":24830.164,"text":"就其實這一案而已啦,我們就是這一案也是為大家爭取這個權利而已總召的意思是說這個是應該是在立法院啦那我們去圍欄中選會好像怪怪的我沒有意見啦煙有頭債有主這樣啦算是不要凍結嘛這跟我們沒關係嘛好,不然算了啦"},{"start":24842.352,"end":24842.873,"text":"文字就不用動了"},{"start":24856.325,"end":24874.651,"text":"免動節,文字有修正的免動節好,那就文字修正那就通過這樣給我們報告文字有幾個字可能要調整一下好,90案改組決議,文字修正好,沒有意見通過93案,並委員會決議辦理好,就這樣107案好,已經改組決議,這個已經陸委會,我們要讓他坐下來好了"},{"start":24886.488,"end":24904.082,"text":"事實上陸委會他們已經協調好了我們就主委坐下來我就不必再介紹了我們就107案現在我們就陸委會了陸委會已經協調好他只有兩個案我們很快的處理107案改組協議在哪裡107案組協議在哪裡"},{"start":24915.835,"end":24916.156,"text":"不當黨產處理委員會"},{"start":24949.681,"end":24959.107,"text":"現在主任委員林鋒正先生在列席我們就開始請大家看119案全數檢列有沒有意見保留再來請看"},{"start":24973.563,"end":24985.753,"text":"這個120案也是全數檢列這個我們改組決議好不好改組決議齁好不好可以啊你是全數刪除啊當然改組決議可以啊"},{"start":24990.876,"end":25016.657,"text":"好改組決議那文字修正那這樣那個文字說我們會是打擊一級建立綠色威權就跟事實就不一樣文字改組決議你都寫一個比較中肯的大家來看一看就可以你就把文字修正讓大家看一下好不好麻煩一下就文字要修正要讓大家看一下啦就這樣"},{"start":25017.551,"end":25044.295,"text":"好來 我們一百二十案改組決議文書修正那一種組決議怎麼可能我只修正一下 董事長那個文書修正讓大家看一下就這樣看一下大家如果沒有意見就通過好那再來一二二案因為是屬於通山我們通案處理好通山"},{"start":25045.209,"end":25074.09,"text":"他是通商科目嘛就通案處理比照幾檔再來是123案主決議123保留123保留保留好不當黨產處理員會一共現在四個案有兩案保留一個是通案處理一個就是主決議文字修正請修正以後讓大家看一下就可以了好"},{"start":25075.205,"end":25075.405,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25118.523,"end":25120.205,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25123.108,"end":25125.391,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25139.798,"end":25139.818,"text":"好"},{"start":25162.637,"end":25162.677,"text":"主席"},{"start":25179.253,"end":25180.394,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25197.009,"end":25201.092,"text":"好,來我宣布一下好不好"},{"start":25224.839,"end":25225.62,"text":"我們就繼續開會齁我宣佈一下"},{"start":25256.343,"end":25281.236,"text":"好來我宣布一下謝謝總商好來我宣布一下好好來有關於不當黨黨處理人會剛才已經有處理的20案就是保留嘛就是11919保留嘛那現在120我們改為保留"},{"start":25285.697,"end":25287.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25333.159,"end":25333.62,"text":"請大家看144"},{"start":25339.937,"end":25349.785,"text":"修正文字就是把調查報告公開化掉那是不是還是維持調查報告應該公開這樣才會同意"},{"start":25352.219,"end":25352.319,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":25369.104,"end":25372.346,"text":"提案是報告要公開,現在針對公開這個部分可以嗎?"},{"start":25393.12,"end":25421.448,"text":"因為提給內政委員會就是已經就是公開的一個報告了因為現在需要內政部公開我們是正式提給立法院的內政委員會所以他其實就是已經是一個公開的一個處理所謂公開就是請你們就是在網站能夠把這個報告能夠對外公開啦不是說提供給內政委員會就算公開啦所以這個部分有一點不同"},{"start":25423.539,"end":25423.741,"text":"這個可以嗎?"},{"start":25426.919,"end":25428.86,"text":"二月二十四日提供內委會的報告"},{"start":25455.919,"end":25478.906,"text":"公開嘛,已經公開就好了嘛對,就是因為2月24號都已經提過了而且內政委員會也已經同意了好啊,那你們先這樣子改是,好那就編案,就144案就改為主決議那文字修正通過,對不對?對好,你同意了嘛,就照那個文字你們寫掉啊2月24號報告那個部分要公開就好了好,來"},{"start":25482.607,"end":25483.088,"text":"請大家看145案"},{"start":25504.909,"end":25505.57,"text":"文字有做修正"},{"start":25539.775,"end":25556.436,"text":"院長我再問一下剛剛那個報告要公開你們有2月24的報告還有其他的報告嗎該組決議我們就是2月24號提供有沒有其他的報告2月24號那個就是我們的行政調查是只有一份"},{"start":25562.003,"end":25583.983,"text":"是嗎?是只有一份嗎?跟委員報告,據我了解,我們好像有另外一個委員的部分,也是同樣的內容同樣的內容的報告?內容一模一樣的,是嗎?2月24號提供給內委會的報告就那麼一份嘛,跟外公開沒有關係"},{"start":25585.236,"end":25609.313,"text":"好我看這個剛才講的這個他不是沒有公開我是說公開的程度你還不滿意應該要在網站上也要有啦就這樣啦他事實上是已經有公開了啦齁那這個就你們在文字上修改一下等下看一下嘛齁好那接下來一訴五案齁那改組決議那文字修正那沒有意見通過好"},{"start":25615.304,"end":25640.95,"text":"好請看173案173是實例這邊的那個提案那這個主決因為把所有的文字幾乎五分之三都劃掉那這個部分我們先保留這個案子和前面那個案子一樣意思是一樣嗎報告是一樣的內容是一樣的"},{"start":25642.987,"end":25650.01,"text":"跟144一樣嘛 144都已經改了那一樣公開嘛 就併144就好了可以嗎 併144啦好 那我們黨團這邊就是兩案現在都保留啦144跟173都保留剛才講好了"},{"start":25665.29,"end":25666.472,"text":"委員我們已經把文字修好了"},{"start":25676.468,"end":25679.229,"text":"二月二十四號的報告太過簡短草率所以我們希望有"},{"start":25699.438,"end":25721.936,"text":"公布你們比較完整的報告那你們既然也不願意去說明清楚那我們認為這樣子不能夠呈現事實所以就是保留我沒有花很多時間你不能拗他嘛你不能拗人家嘛你搞這個搞那個我剛才求證說到底有沒有另外一份報告啊那如果如果是有的話"},{"start":25724.818,"end":25737.803,"text":"我們還是希望內政部能夠公開那現在因為你的文字我們沒有辦法接受所以這邊先保留我再跟你補充一下我們就是2月24號給內委會的報告沒有其他的報告 這第一點第二點"},{"start":25744.427,"end":25761.686,"text":"這個案子其實地檢署已經講得很清楚並不是內政部洩漏出去的而是在外部的一個使用機關所以我們內政部已經就我們的權責的部分已經做了完整的一個調查也把這個報告跟內委會來做說明了"},{"start":25762.347,"end":25762.467,"text":"主席"},{"start":25774.452,"end":25793.559,"text":"謝謝部長的回應,不過因為邱總召這邊剛剛我們有聯繫所以我們針對這樣子又把我們的文字劃掉那是不是可以完整的呈現我們的文字那如果是這樣子的話我們就可以...他已經完整呈現了,你...就不要把文字劃掉不是,你現在文字把我們劃掉那麼多"},{"start":25798.661,"end":25798.822,"text":"陳如玉議員"},{"start":25806.238,"end":25820.109,"text":"因為委員你可以看一下原本的文字是說內政部迄今尚未公布行政調查報告但實際上我們是修正的文字是說在112年2月24號我們有把會議證資料外寫的書面報告送給這個內政委員會那是因為這個文字"},{"start":25830.657,"end":25830.697,"text":"主席"},{"start":25851.888,"end":25852.068,"text":"謝謝部長的回答"},{"start":25864.664,"end":25882.895,"text":"我們現在已經討論一個多小時了 只有通過差不多20個案而已那我們還是要加快我們的腳步144案 那就可以了 剛才陳委員已經同意了就主決議 那我就修正通過 173案就保留就這樣確定 來 這個案"},{"start":25893.049,"end":25922.405,"text":"在202案改組協議那這個已經有溝通了吧好啦就改組協議沒有意見通過204案改組協議那沒有意見通過好這樣內政部告一段落好來國防外交在哪裡長江左右來的更好"},{"start":25925.196,"end":25945.094,"text":"來來來來謝謝"},{"start":25970.448,"end":25984.977,"text":"外交部部長因為因公出國,所以就有呂淳次長代表他有事前打電話要我轉告大家來請假"},{"start":25992.13,"end":26019.859,"text":"再介紹一遍好了啦就列席的首長就是外交部政務處長李純先生好來好謝謝那現在我們就看從這裡吧第九案第九案測案好就這樣那再來就是五十案主決議文字修正那沒有進行通過好第一再來就請看六十八案主決議"},{"start":26021.936,"end":26022.117,"text":"國防部"},{"start":26038.09,"end":26038.87,"text":"六十八案主決議"},{"start":26066.857,"end":26069.257,"text":"新版文字修正"},{"start":26095.39,"end":26096.691,"text":"保留是我們喊的還是你喊的建議建議"},{"start":26122.455,"end":26122.736,"text":"主席"},{"start":26132.312,"end":26132.472,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26162.612,"end":26163.033,"text":"請問您的修正文字在哪裡?"},{"start":26191.079,"end":26219.082,"text":"來請大家看一下90案的文字修正看大家有沒有什麼意見就說主決議就改為主決議那文字做修正好 院長我們還是保留保留喔對好那90案就保留好那國防部結束謝謝上將謝謝院長好來接下來喬武喬武委員會"},{"start":26225.207,"end":26235.312,"text":"喬文瑞現在列席的所長是副委員長阮昭雄先生那我們就先看157案"},{"start":26253.875,"end":26254.195,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26272.953,"end":26274.694,"text":"首先就是國外會主管的部分"},{"start":26308.523,"end":26326.954,"text":"國安會我介紹一下列席所長國安會主任委員 國民信先生跟他報告國安會一共有兩個案請大家看第五案來看一下來"},{"start":26338.716,"end":26355.874,"text":"已經溝通完成了嗎對不對總召辦公室是說本案保留你們不是溝通完成嗎溝通完成決定保留沒關係啦 因為表哥說目前安排過啦"},{"start":26358.973,"end":26373.708,"text":"委員長不好意思我們確定一下因為剛剛那個行政院的那個第21案、第30案還有中選會的那兩個案子原則上我們保留我們不同意該組決議"},{"start":26375.663,"end":26376.884,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":26401.386,"end":26402.047,"text":"在內政委員會"},{"start":26437.199,"end":26437.439,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":26464.568,"end":26466.689,"text":"第六案是時代力量你們有修正嗎 不然就是同意嗎"},{"start":26486.267,"end":26511.052,"text":"剪列20%怎麼可能可以我們是希望可以並委員會凍結啦好啦並委員會啦我們是認為就是議後特別預算3800億之後呢我們的經濟成長率只剩下1.42%嘛是14年來新低那現在剪列的部分我們至少要剪列1%可以嗎"},{"start":26517.611,"end":26519.974,"text":"三千九百二十六萬 減一趴不行"},{"start":26535.26,"end":26559.432,"text":"剪列1%剪列20%修改剪列1%柯木可以自調嗎柯木就自行調整剛才第五案是保留我再重申一遍第六案是改為剪列1%然後柯木自行調整"},{"start":26565.851,"end":26566.211,"text":"國話會告一段落"},{"start":26592.332,"end":26598.655,"text":"那接下來就請經濟部介紹列席的所長介紹列席的所長經濟部部長王美花女士現在就請大家看65案"},{"start":26624.548,"end":26629.131,"text":"65案改成凍結5%這個已經簽名蓋章凍結5%沒有一線通過129案129並130案130案的部分減列1000萬科目自行調整這個也簽名蓋章了這很大方"},{"start":26654.791,"end":26676.018,"text":"一二九案並一三零案那一三零案減列一千萬就是原來一三零案是減列五千萬現在改為減列一千萬我這樣講沒有錯吧那就兩案都通過一二九呢一二九並一三零兩個加起來一千嘛就合併"},{"start":26680.168,"end":26680.468,"text":"致命報告"},{"start":26710.652,"end":26725.404,"text":"市議院報告沒有意見就通過141遵照辦理141就是增列一百萬那就通過那請看146凍結一百六十萬"},{"start":26735.122,"end":26747.147,"text":"剪列改為凍結對不對是好146原來剪列160萬現在改為凍結160萬好沒有意見通過再來請看195案195改為凍結600萬好195原來是剪列600萬現在改為凍結600萬沒有意見通過好來請看207案"},{"start":26762.278,"end":26770.122,"text":"207改為凍結100萬207改為凍結100萬沒有意見通過經濟部就告一段落院長我跟部長講一下部長那個六輕拋砂那個可不可以一個月內來提一個環差請那個工業局"},{"start":26788.473,"end":26788.493,"text":"王國興議員"},{"start":26834.047,"end":26844.856,"text":"現在介紹列席的所長 農業部代理部長陳俊契先生那我們現在請大家看256案"},{"start":26848.372,"end":26855.494,"text":"252案改為主決議 文字修正 民運縣市通過253案我們還是希望能夠不要簡略 然後改成主決議 並修正文字這個案子這個案子就是因為我們也聽過邱總召 邱委員他"},{"start":26877.967,"end":26881.249,"text":"我跟委員說明 因為整個查核的部分 以農產品價一法 它是由縣市 地方縣市政府去查處財閥的部分"},{"start":26904.65,"end":26904.71,"text":"保留"},{"start":26925.165,"end":26925.866,"text":"二五七案"},{"start":26950.927,"end":26955.409,"text":"257案也是建請能夠改成主決議並修正文字257案就是凍結500萬提書面報告做文書修正"},{"start":26978.333,"end":27005.191,"text":"來,280案那280案也是漸行改成主決議的部分那昨天有跟委員說明齁,這個部分我想我們至少動一趴啦,可以嗎?因為一趴就三億至少動一趴我跟委員報告齁,融化條例這個318億裡面﹐很多是補充基金的﹐還有我們冷鏈,非常重要的冷鏈還有那個動物保護的這些環境的一個建設然後希望這個部分,年初一開始就可能就要去執行了"},{"start":27005.931,"end":27007.211,"text":"希望能夠改成主決議農業比較弱勢農業比較弱勢動500"},{"start":27031.345,"end":27056.843,"text":"反正你交報告就可以解凍啦這個沒有說沒有簡列嘛我們現在就凍五百那凍了書面報告就可以解凍了嘛好那如果凍五百我們要修正部分的文字要修正要調整好凍五百五百萬提書面報告然後文字修正好就這樣文字要修正喔好"},{"start":27059.628,"end":27087.773,"text":"沒有意見就這樣通過再來是299案主決議299案也是感謝謝宜旺 謝書記長剛剛有同意做文字的修正改成主決議那就299案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過304案主決議304部分我們希望說能夠改成於三個月內向立法院經濟委員會報告"},{"start":27089.378,"end":27111.793,"text":"304跟332是吳怡丁跟李桂民委員的提案那他們要求保留那我們是不是就保留那314是總召的案子那因為總召的案子是關於農業部的宣傳費的部分那這部分我們今天早上是不是已經討論過通案的部分是不是就按照通案"},{"start":27114.995,"end":27125.664,"text":"那314就車案改到通案 併到通案區就好了那304就保留那3321就保留那314就併通案辦理"},{"start":27137.447,"end":27140.369,"text":"農委會去告一段落 農益部去告一段落好 謝謝委員"},{"start":27164.799,"end":27165.88,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27196.596,"end":27216.646,"text":"我們現在就進行文化部主管的提案那首先介紹 類席的首長 文化部部長史哲先生好 謝謝 那我們接下來就來看228案那228案是改組決議嘛齁"},{"start":27218.773,"end":27244.379,"text":"就是少動一點啦好不好少動一點就是一百萬然後交報告就可以了同意修改文字啦有修改文字可以啦就是動一百可以嗎你交報告就可以解動阿可是只有修改文字阿這裡不是改組決議嗎改組決議了嘛已經改組決議了阿你們已經簽字了阿"},{"start":27246.358,"end":27250.602,"text":"228案就改組決議 文字修正沒有意見通過229案就保留 對不對"},{"start":27275.391,"end":27275.571,"text":"主席"},{"start":27298.342,"end":27304.425,"text":"主協議 作文字修正 明日會見修正通過"},{"start":27326.394,"end":27326.834,"text":"二十七組決議"},{"start":27343.343,"end":27347.864,"text":"主席"},{"start":27372.779,"end":27378.764,"text":"現在完整會議那是否我們這樣還有表示說如果NCC對他的言論不同的話就有什麼打算?"},{"start":27437.671,"end":27460.477,"text":"我們繼續 現在要討論國家通信傳播委員會主管的部分首先介紹 列席的首長國家通信傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥先生接下來請大家看 第一案第一案有沒有意見"},{"start":27467.609,"end":27493.709,"text":"有修正的在哪裡可不可以有修正的文字嗎可不可以並委員結一半禮好啦 並委員結一半禮好了"},{"start":27495.199,"end":27495.919,"text":"第9案保留"},{"start":27520.387,"end":27525.469,"text":"第四案徹北會徹北會你一案就好了嘛你總要徹北會怎麼兩個案子啊你看清楚啦沒有兩個案保留"},{"start":27550.285,"end":27555.847,"text":"對阿你那個三個案那如果有問題我們再請那個NCC來辦公室那就先保留阿先保留 院長保留這個都是特別費"},{"start":27575.595,"end":27577.636,"text":"十四的保留十三案的保留"},{"start":27602.728,"end":27630.128,"text":"那十四案是不是要並委會接辦理那個民眾黨來這個十四案的部分我們要保留十四十五都保留都要保留都一樣嘛都一樣就好了保留保留我們表決的時候大家不要有精神對不對來十六案保留十六案謝司機長"},{"start":27632.332,"end":27633.052,"text":"19案 主結議20案 主結議21案 主結議"},{"start":27663.891,"end":27664.391,"text":"二十二案組結議"},{"start":27692.501,"end":27692.902,"text":"歐四案"},{"start":27713.251,"end":27715.012,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27743.905,"end":27773.003,"text":"接下來國家運輸安全調查委員會國家運輸安全調查委員會主管的部分介紹類型的首長國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德先生"},{"start":27775.36,"end":27798.855,"text":"接下來我們就請大家看31案31案我們可以同意3案最後一句話我們事實上政府保守程序已經在做了"},{"start":27799.397,"end":27799.998,"text":"最後一句是拿幾個字"},{"start":27826.968,"end":27829.149,"text":"並經本院交通委員會 同意厚實的動資"},{"start":27855.553,"end":27855.873,"text":"主席"},{"start":27871.243,"end":27896.743,"text":"好啦好啦還是保留啊沒有啦沒有保留啊沒有留也沒關係啦使得動之四個字要留下來啦好 同意我以為你是說後面那個計算掉是一百萬算掉就是到動之就同意那兩個字拿掉就對了好啦"},{"start":27897.352,"end":27899.774,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27932.014,"end":27932.676,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":28175.916,"end":28176.276,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28218.725,"end":28223.388,"text":"現在要進行交通部主管的部分現在就請大家看75案"},{"start":28231.465,"end":28258.75,"text":"七十五案七十五案跟院長報告這個已經跟委員這邊溝通了他同意改組決議文那文字是最後我們有書面資料那個等於倒數第五行開始之後刪掉然後文字改為請交通部持續關注道路交通安全議題好同意改組決議好有了齁同意同意好七十五案就修組決議文字修正那沒有意見就通過好來七十七案"},{"start":28261.67,"end":28288.46,"text":"77案這邊就是還是要動啦然後不併委員會不併委員會就是不要經過委員會同意後使得動作就刪掉那幾個字好是併委員會解一半你們對不對沒有因為剛剛陳委員希望獨立動啦那獨立動的話就是不要後面有話說經委員會同意因為同意的話變成要專案報告就不是書面報告了"},{"start":28290.417,"end":28298.183,"text":"第七十七案委員會已經動了一億三千萬那你再動一億三千萬好像你這個是六億的十分之一啦先保留啦"},{"start":28311.317,"end":28336.074,"text":"再跟蘇董交通一下我可不可以說明一下跟我的報告就是說你這裡擬計書面報告OK啦我們是說金本願交通委員會同意這個是刪掉就擬計書面報告使得動之這樣好不好這個就是那個動決就沒有問題嘛我覺得我們就寫好啦那就這樣文字修正嘛就這樣"},{"start":28338.038,"end":28340.98,"text":"本院交通委員會同意那個不要刪"},{"start":28365.634,"end":28393.593,"text":"還要經過同意嗎那個不要刪這樣子好嗎可是要董事長這個不要刪一般都是這樣子啊一般都是寫提示文報告使得動之啊這個文字不要刪這樣子不是跟那個文報我們的在交通委員會也都一樣不會寫什麼跟經交通委員會同意這個本來就是自私就這樣不同意的話還會再處理嗎我們所有的都是這樣就是書文報告使得動之都這樣都這樣啊就不是那個是這樣"},{"start":28395.287,"end":28396.948,"text":"檢列50萬 凍結五分之一"},{"start":28424.181,"end":28433.347,"text":"好 那就保留啦好 來 謝謝交通部就到此告一段落 好 來接下來事發部介紹列席的所長"},{"start":28455.496,"end":28464.109,"text":"數位發展部部長唐鳳部長來接下來就請看249案改正列五千萬元"},{"start":28473.683,"end":28497.556,"text":"有溝通嗎?有,這些是賴委員有簽字改增列五千萬元,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見就通過請問一下蘇發部你們做得到嗎?增列五千萬是不是跟委員會合併加五千萬元?委員會兩千嘛你變成五千啊?做不到議組所長嗎?"},{"start":28500.276,"end":28508.231,"text":"應該是可以做不到也沒關係啦,反正這個是期待值而已啦做不到也沒關係,又有議組所長的問題"},{"start":28512.278,"end":28512.859,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28537.005,"end":28538.306,"text":"改正列三千萬人266案通山科目"},{"start":28556.269,"end":28580.314,"text":"有溝通那刪減的部分沒有問題那就是因為它是科目可以自行調整所以我們建議說可以拿到這個委辦會本來會刪嘛它是屬於通商科目啦通商的啦對對對通商會處理這樣是是好謝謝那這樣我們就通案辦理好不好通商科目就通案辦理通商科目比這個多欸可能會比這個多齁我發現比這個多了來"},{"start":28584.861,"end":28585.221,"text":"改為主決議"},{"start":28614.838,"end":28614.858,"text":"269案"},{"start":28630.56,"end":28658.261,"text":"剪列一百萬那這個科目能不能在一般行政 行政項目下來調整這樣啦齁 二六九案 剪列一百萬年科目執行調整就這樣好好 每日券就這樣來 二七零案剪列一千五百萬 對不對有溝通嗎等一下 等一下等一下 來就 從"},{"start":28661.761,"end":28663.343,"text":"委員長這樣可以嗎?科目有沒有一樣啊?"},{"start":28683.387,"end":28684.567,"text":"總數達到1500就是賴氏堡委員要求的這個就是"},{"start":28709.711,"end":28734.658,"text":"應該是把委員都放在專業施設心堂呢報期年案就等於併委員會那這個剪列一共剪列1500萬就這樣就加一個併委員會結議那個就是說委員會全部的就是剪列1500萬總數"},{"start":28738.794,"end":28750.182,"text":"主席長這樣可以嗎可以所以還是你同意才有用不是我同意通過二七四案改檢列250萬元這有資訊服務費"},{"start":28754.895,"end":28763.705,"text":"我們科目希望能夠提在工作計畫向下來簡略科目執行調整在科目計畫範圍內調整科目執行調整 但是用兩個字會不會"},{"start":28772.594,"end":28774.695,"text":"你會不會寫 寫清楚要寫清楚嗎我看科目自行調整這樣會流淡性他上面寫科目自調嘛"},{"start":28800.615,"end":28804.417,"text":"這個有沒有過通啊保留這個五千萬不得了好保留"},{"start":28832.031,"end":28847.505,"text":"好來,280案這個一樣從這個大科目來自行調整好,那檢列1000科目自行調整對不對112,減500好不好哪一個12280啊減500對啊,他才112而已"},{"start":28861.462,"end":28889.853,"text":"他委員會是多少?委員會是一二五百五百就好了有沒有人檢過的?這就溝通過了,一千啊,減一千怎麼樣?同意簡列還是?你們當初為什麼同意簡列?"},{"start":28891.175,"end":28894.499,"text":"可以嗎希望能夠少減一點那800好了這個鄉府已經減1550在這裡一直減"},{"start":28905.152,"end":28911.196,"text":"前面有撿一個千五啦他答應賴氏保沒有啦 減比較久的啦可以啦六百好啦五百啦 你剛才就說五百啦五百啦"},{"start":28923.303,"end":28928.089,"text":"我是幫賴氏堡委員講的阿不然你讓人家沒民主 要答應賴氏堡阿你現在阿現在答應一千萬阿現在我們願意五百五百啦 五百"},{"start":28939.904,"end":28940.945,"text":"沒有建議就通過"},{"start":28969.051,"end":28989.075,"text":"來再來是285案你們都同意啊那是法委員沒有啦那是法委員叫的方式不是私人行政啊不是 他們都同意啊他們都已經同意了啊我給大家報告"},{"start":28994.183,"end":29016.018,"text":"這個委員會他已經有凍結十分之一阿這邊再簡歷阿你跟他不理黨阿不然委員會就好了阿放多少啦好啦 兩百五啦 一樣啦兩百啦 五百五二百五不好啦 兩百就好了阿二百五就是你剛剛提的 什麼二百五不好你這人齁好啦好啦 兩百五十萬啦你講就可以了 兩百五十萬來來來293"},{"start":29024.014,"end":29036.065,"text":"292是動輒十分之一因為委員會已經動輒十分之一保留292就保留293兵285案處理兵285兵285就兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285兵285�"},{"start":29054.069,"end":29057.733,"text":"凍結十分之一那委員會已經凍結兩千萬啦並委員會改書面好了"},{"start":29077.109,"end":29081.895,"text":"這也很麻煩,因為他們都自己去簽名了那種情境我可以想像出來"},{"start":29085.009,"end":29114.087,"text":"總結總結總結"},{"start":29114.673,"end":29121.035,"text":"委員會已經凍結兩千萬這個十分之一就等於五千萬委員會有兩千萬就等於是凍結七千萬數目蠻大的"},{"start":29134.804,"end":29135.564,"text":"好 凍結1000萬 沒有意見通過好"},{"start":29165.117,"end":29182.296,"text":"那322通商科目就通案處理好不好接下來就是325也是通商科目我們就通案處理那326通商科目也通案處理330改檢列700萬那"},{"start":29185.731,"end":29203.258,"text":"委員會已經減列三千萬,又凍結十分之一,那大家要不要再評估看看?改組決議就好了,好不好?哪一條?委員會已經減三千了啊?330案委員會減三千又凍結十分之一,這個改組決議就可以了"},{"start":29203.865,"end":29206.486,"text":"問題是蘇發布他自己去同意的千五萬 十萬 百萬是七億"},{"start":29226.092,"end":29246.665,"text":"像這個知安他們也應該不要同意啊因為知安對民眾很重要欸結果他們自己去同意那我們要怎麼辦你不能為行政單位卸責欸民進黨團應該的啊因為那時候答應的時候人會想說書記長會不會幫我們增加啊"},{"start":29254.197,"end":29254.517,"text":"製安不應該減"},{"start":29275.836,"end":29283.319,"text":"這是行政部門應該說明的嘛為什麼你們去那裡同意 變成我們在這裏要替他們說明跟委員報告因為我們產業署這個是給產業的輔導的經費啦委員會的部分已經減三千萬然後動十分之一如果變委員會的話對產業我們希望多爭取一點經費 以上報告"},{"start":29304.891,"end":29305.031,"text":"委員會結議辦理"},{"start":29331.109,"end":29333.37,"text":"那免疫線就通過好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":29385.438,"end":29399.279,"text":"好 我們繼續好不好我們兩點半 到現在已經超過兩個小時了大家滿辛苦的 來 要休息喔"},{"start":29403.789,"end":29406.191,"text":"人事行政總署 介紹歷史所長 人事長蘇俊榮先生案號22"},{"start":29430.092,"end":29430.372,"text":"國事論壇拜告"},{"start":29461.891,"end":29478.986,"text":"司法院主管介紹司法院秘書長吳山隆先生還有台灣高等法院院長高金枝女士我們現在就請大家看92案"},{"start":29488.141,"end":29500.314,"text":"有進一步的消息嗎有溝通啦有溝 沒有通他說明天早上就會通了啦這些都保留啦"},{"start":29502.745,"end":29518.238,"text":"那這樣就就請保留他說還給他想一下,他明天就會不必啦,我們先保留,又保留,又保結就算了這個讓他突顯一下,為什麼可以這樣搞那背後的演藝嘛,讓他公知,讓社會知道"},{"start":29519.319,"end":29520.32,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29548.717,"end":29573.825,"text":"考試院主管的部分那我介紹列席的首長 前書部部長 周志鴻先生來 那請大家看124案改為主決議 有沒有意見哪裡124案好 同意好 同意喔 就有溝通啦 有溝有通好 那就通過 124案就通過好 謝謝"},{"start":29575.197,"end":29575.217,"text":"143案"},{"start":29593.816,"end":29599.622,"text":"這個案謝謝謝委員已經撤案了謝謝謝委員那個院長我跟秘書長講一下秘書長我上個月質詢的案子後來有跟監委、市監委討論"},{"start":29611.813,"end":29639.239,"text":"的確是你們之前監察院的調查有疏失那個委員我跟您報告一下那個案子已經發過三次新聞稿說明是認知不同而已不是監委有疏失這個非常清楚報告內容是有錯的這個也不是我能處理的他也會重新再審理所以這個部分還是要跟秘書長公開說明我回去轉達你不用轉達我是讓你知道"},{"start":29639.699,"end":29640.32,"text":"法務部主管"},{"start":29663.151,"end":29685.866,"text":"那法務部部長因為另有公務那他趕不過來有打電話來請假向他報告一下好來 那我們現在就介紹列席的首長就是法務部政府司長蔡碧中先生我們就請大家看211案怎麼樣"},{"start":29692.899,"end":29701.483,"text":"主席主席總召211案211保留213案保留211 213保留好那謝謝我們就告一段落需要解釋嗎要不要解釋"},{"start":29723.954,"end":29725.095,"text":"衛環衛環衛環衛環衛環衛環幾個案6個案6個案好來有沒有溝通"},{"start":29749.386,"end":29760.116,"text":"有公別通 還是已經溝通完畢有啦 通山通山 至少有兩個通山改凍結250萬至少有三個案"},{"start":29785.009,"end":29787.13,"text":"報告主席 我們這個是有修改文字"},{"start":29814.409,"end":29814.769,"text":"1、2、8保留"},{"start":29843.726,"end":29851.652,"text":"131有修正文字已經有簽名131主決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":29872.003,"end":29896.484,"text":"148組決議做文字修正沒有異證就修正通過212是通商 213是通商 這兩個案我們就通案處理好不好一起處理 邱委員的跟我的案子"},{"start":29898.986,"end":29917.442,"text":"我們還是希望他們在做監管營 全國的監管營把所有的資料傳到營端 擔心資安風險所以還是希望他們做好社會溝通 然後再來解凍"},{"start":29918.423,"end":29928.975,"text":"所以不是要他上來預算沒有你做好社會公司來解凍這個案子就不必搞了沒有這樣 他們已經在溝通了那個資安的問題不會有問題大家都還很擔心"},{"start":29934.941,"end":29955.568,"text":"你要 他們溝通我們沒有意見但是不是溝通好再來解凍然後也不可能那這個案子就沒有了吧我們常常有這種解凍案啊委員會常常在處理解凍案怎麼沒有咧這麼多解凍之後然後去執行啊凍結就是這個意思啊這不是我發明的"},{"start":29958.109,"end":29982.997,"text":"總召你怎麼這樣講不是啦 你要凍多少啦對啦凍多少嘛凍多少啦現在是全數喔你全數凍結的所以啊 現在我就是說 這樣啦溝通啦 凍百分之八十讓他們開始執行然後就去溝通這樣啦 你拿啦 你拿啦我怎麼拿啦 大家再來會啊 溝通多少要凍結多少這個案子喔是要敦促他們去做社會溝通"},{"start":29984.037,"end":30002.555,"text":"現在人家在看怎麼說的我都知道來源我很清楚人家都知道但是這個有一個很重要的事情就是說這不只有一萬方面的事情加長端的你要考慮一下你要把這個制度弄好對不對"},{"start":30003.235,"end":30004.696,"text":"中央政府總預算部分．．"},{"start":30025.845,"end":30026.926,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":30048.643,"end":30048.763,"text":"暫時保留"},{"start":30073.024,"end":30089.568,"text":"期待我們四個黨團繼續溝通那看在什麼時候 三天內還是怎麼樣就是提出一個共同的提案出來這樣好不好好 處理之前處理之前嘛 不行就處理 要MV處理嘛好不好 那就這樣嘛我們就把它列入會記錄好不好好 這個才是列入會記錄這樣喔好 那就這樣 好來"},{"start":30102.478,"end":30110.888,"text":"那請看二二一案要不要再聲明一下"},{"start":30115.616,"end":30117.918,"text":"因為小孩子是不會哭訴、不會講話"},{"start":30134.907,"end":30153.924,"text":"尤其是我們的部分的話,托嬰是兩歲以下的所以這是為了保護兒童的權益那第二個,這個監管其實是對雙方都有利因為我們的數字是這樣子從開始我們要求修法之後,要求都設監視器之後"},{"start":30155.345,"end":30169.612,"text":"到現在為止有問題的立案的是114案是有不當對待的案子其中有10%是掉入境帶的時候是掉不到"},{"start":30172.398,"end":30188.184,"text":"所以我們才會起這個議就是說需要有一個立案終止都同意啦我們也認同而且保護我們這個兒童的這個權益還有但是現在重點是資訊的管理資安的管理還有國人的疑慮這個部分"},{"start":30190.665,"end":30217.842,"text":"這個因為老實講 個資外洩的問題已經太嚴重了而且現在網路的駭客非常厲害那如果這些小朋友的這些被監管的資訊被不當利用到其他的網站或是其他的案文的系統現在就有在錄影我知道 所以我們今天已經決定了嘛我們這三個黨我們在用會之前我們會這個案子我們會支持 我們會支持好不好"},{"start":30219.567,"end":30225.671,"text":"現在環境部介紹列席的所長環境部部長薛富聖先生"},{"start":30253.034,"end":30254.936,"text":"好 只有一個案 那請大家看18 看221案"},{"start":30260.092,"end":30286.093,"text":"這個溝通我現在才看到文字那我要說明說明就是前環保署的一級主管長崎信燒那陳欽仁都有跟前環保署陳情那前環保署長就是張子敬先生他都只有口頭告誡"},{"start":30287.216,"end":30316.227,"text":"那只有口頭告誡當然現在環境部有調查對不對那有調查我們希望能夠針對調查報告的處理的情形要對外公布嘛我想很多受害人現在即使這個案子已經調查但是他們對於加害者還有對於包庇的情形我想一輩子都沒有辦法走出來所以"},{"start":30316.808,"end":30317.932,"text":"本席只是針對這個調查報告要求要"},{"start":30322.443,"end":30348.861,"text":"發布新聞稿那發布新聞稿現在環境部把第一行刪掉了本席認為這個不應該啦所以不應該現在環境部還有整個執政黨包括院長還要為包庇者來包庇所以這個第一行的文字請不要刪除這樣我們就可以同意以上說明"},{"start":30352.96,"end":30376.306,"text":"改動捷250萬有意見嗎第一行沒有意見第一行的文字就是保留不要刪除那這樣有沒有問題我們還是建議可以做文字修正後面的文字修正我們可以接受第一行的文字請不要刪除現在對文字有意見你們黨團有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":30381.651,"end":30407.625,"text":"保留 那就保留啦我想那個柯總召你這邊要保留我剛剛已經說明的很清楚非常多的受害者針對張子敬前署長的包庇他們到現在還在看醫生還在陷入被害的情境中那現在只是公布這個調查的情形把張子敬前署長的"},{"start":30409.217,"end":30411.02,"text":"處理情形發布新聞稿"},{"start":30415.879,"end":30440.969,"text":"我們接受發布新聞稿我們會做對阿你接受你就不要保留阿你就讓這個對阿你要調整對阿我們只是說調整同意阿那就是第一行的文字等一下第一行的文字就是不要刪除阿就這樣子而已阿我們其他的接受阿你聽一下這個想法齁"},{"start":30441.989,"end":30456.316,"text":"其實完全都同意應該要嚴格的調查而且調查的結果要完全公開但至於到底事實是如何我覺得可以留待調查的結果調查完跟公開大家就一清二楚調查完了報告院長都看過了部長他們都看過現在就是針對已經調查完了要"},{"start":30462.919,"end":30487.577,"text":"公布這個要發布信務稿說明這樣而已阿所以就是在這邊阿所以這是同意大家同意這件事情阿只是說第一行的這個文字不要刪掉而已阿有鑒於有鑒於前環保署長張子晉涉嫌包庇環保署之郎之性騷案這個部分不要刪除阿就這一句而已阿這是事實阿為什麼要把事實刪除呢陳委員我來說"},{"start":30491.46,"end":30520.352,"text":"我來講幾句話就是說第一點就是說還是我們如果要那個通過還是要黨團要有共識不過我在這邊講如果像這樣的話我也是贊成要嚴辦嚴查但是我們的國家整個體制我們是民主政治它有你可以用刑事的處刑事處分可以有民事的處分可以有行政的處分那也可以"},{"start":30521.452,"end":30537.377,"text":"找機會到 就是說在國會 針對我們這個部長 現在的經營部長來跟他執行 但是我說在預算裡面好像怪怪的那他只要發布新聞稿就可以解凍啊"},{"start":30538.357,"end":30539.258,"text":"只要把調查報告﹑內容說明他們怎麼處理這個事情就這樣而已啊沒有再質詢"},{"start":30557.595,"end":30559.076,"text":"因為沒有共識我們本案就保留好 謝謝大家"},{"start":30587.53,"end":30608.975,"text":"我們今天的案 沒了吧 告一段落通山的來 通山的就開始處理來通山的那個比例 審查的程序這個事要先讀一下嗎那我先跟大家報告齁 來"},{"start":30622.104,"end":30625.41,"text":"這是要給通商的同僚講還是先講"},{"start":30630.02,"end":30658.626,"text":"好來先講好來113年度中央政府總預算案朝野黨團協商討論程序及決定事項一討論程序協商順序為先行討論通案決議再依審查分配表所排定各委員會稅入稅出部分送院會處理項目之順序討論最後再再行討論機密預算部分以協商各自單位如無"},{"start":30659.286,"end":30676.36,"text":"未決之提案則不再處理二、決定事項一、113年度中央政府總預算案含機密部分審查總報告所列未送院會處理項目除確有自在難行再協商一、協商結論通過外其餘均照個人會審查會議皆通過"},{"start":30681.124,"end":30703.205,"text":"至送宴會處理項目﹐協商有結論者﹐依協商結論通過﹐協商未獲結論者﹐交付表決﹐並依表決結果通過﹐令黨團協商之凍結內容﹐經並委員會凍結案處理﹐依協商結論通過者﹐經不再依宣讀扁中依依序明"},{"start":30705.468,"end":30726.563,"text":"113年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算（其受及副屬單位預算營業（及非營業部分均佔照例是副屬單位預算審議確定或再行調整3.113年度中央政府總預算案稅出正式別部分（隨同稅出"},{"start":30729.571,"end":30742.776,"text":"．機關別審議結果予以調整．構委員會審查結果含禁閉部分．協商結論均應依通案決議辦理．不再逐一與構機關協商結果續名．構機關均應確實依通案決議何時分別刪減．為構委員會審查刪減訴"},{"start":30751.62,"end":30761.891,"text":"如欲通案決議刪減比例﹐以個人會審查刪減數為準﹐未達通案決議刪減比例﹐則增加檢列不足之數接下來"},{"start":30781.907,"end":30785.39,"text":"113年度總預算案 針對各機關所屬通案刪減用途別項目 預理如下"},{"start":30800.562,"end":30816.674,"text":"1.檢列大陸地區理會2.檢列國外理會及出國教育訓練會不含現行法律明文規定支出3.檢列委辦會不含現行法律條文規定支出4.檢列房屋建築養護會、車輛及辦公區養護會、壽司及機械設備養護會"},{"start":30826.381,"end":30844.733,"text":"5.檢列軍事裝備及授書3%6.檢列一般事務會﹐不含現行法律明論規定支出3%7.檢列媒體政策及業務宣導會﹐不含農委會防檢局﹐衛福部局管局及一千萬以下機關25%這邊還寫農委會這個我改一下農業部"},{"start":30863.777,"end":30869.641,"text":"8.檢列售備及投資不含現行法律評論規定支出資產作價投資及增資台定公司9."},{"start":30869.641,"end":30872.003,"text":"檢列對國內團體資建築及政府機關建築補助不含現行法律評論規定支出"},{"start":30880.329,"end":30894.358,"text":"10.檢列對地方政府的補助﹐不然現行法律明文規定支出﹐及一般性補助款4%11.全市1至6項﹐允許在業務費科目範圍內調整12.全市9至10項﹐允許在將補助費科目範圍內調整14.若有透視困難﹐無法一上該原則調整則﹐可提出其他可刪減項目﹐兼主計總製"},{"start":30909.007,"end":30932.086,"text":"選核同意後予以代替補足十四如總刪減數為答案兩百九十九億元瓜府扣除增資台電公司及撥補勞保基金後約百分之一點一二瓜府另予補足這案今年差不多吧大家都手上都有嗎也就說要兩百九九億吧"},{"start":30937.412,"end":30955.545,"text":"主席只要不夠他另外補另外調整好OK好那就沒有意見就通過了好來再來寫這個選項結論的參考決定事項都一樣這個決定事項都一樣選項結論的草稿"},{"start":30963.971,"end":30992.615,"text":"好來那對於協商結論草稿我現在來宣讀一下請大家齁阿如果有意見再隨處歡迎提出決定事項一各黨團同意113年度總預算案之討論程序及決定事項如附件一通過針對國際觀所屬通案刪減用途別項目括弧含行政院主計總處整理之名序內容括弧如附件二"},{"start":30993.854,"end":31019.425,"text":"通案提案及各委員會通過之協商內容含保留部分如附件三由各委員會整理編讀版及保留版上開附件一至二由財政委員會會長送各黨團確認附件三由各委員會送各黨團確認後送財政委員會附件一至三由財政委員會於12月18日 上午10時"},{"start":31021.207,"end":31035.861,"text":"前送議事處．供應會處理本案於12月19日星期二應會進行處理非保留部分先讀後均予以通過保留部分進行處理前由時代力量黨團、臺灣民眾黨團、國民黨黨團、民進黨黨團各推派一人發言室去授權議事處處理"},{"start":31045.99,"end":31070.259,"text":"每人發言時間如三分鐘 發言完畢後 各保留提案兼不再發言即案 通案 個人會次序進行各保留提案之處理三 貶處協商各項提案 兼予以刊登公報記錄有沒有意見沒有意見發言之就是 咬下去講一次就可以了可以啦好"},{"start":31074.969,"end":31081.174,"text":"決定事項是113年"},{"start":31099.026,"end":31111.891,"text":"自113年1月1日期 本院每月立法會員及各黨團公會助理之治理會增加4%每月購為458,990元及573,735元令適用勞動基準法所需加班會 不休假加班會等相關經費增加4%每月購為91,800元及114,750元"},{"start":31129.895,"end":31133.536,"text":"因為正在簽字中,院長先講一下這一段"},{"start":31150.821,"end":31161.064,"text":"現在預算案協商結論各黨團在簽字中跟大家說明一下下星期二應會各黨團要動員來進行貶次應會預算案及有關議案的表決為了當日表決順利我們貶次會議就尋例不處理臨時提案"},{"start":31172.168,"end":31172.369,"text":"主席"},{"start":31184.454,"end":31194.522,"text":"現在各黨團都已經有在簽了我們就繼續簽各黨團請各黨團大家能夠盡快簽字繼續簽簽完就依協商結論整理相關資料畢共宴會處理那現在"},{"start":31209.964,"end":31223.362,"text":"院長不好意思有沒有意見來那個請教就是我們房屋稅的那個協商是不是禮拜一早上禮拜一早上沒有問題早上下午都沒有問題禮拜一只有那個下午都早上好不好"},{"start":31224.414,"end":31225.355,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":31245.759,"end":31272.602,"text":"那我們立法院的這個所有的幕僚同仁就要辛苦了請大家趕快做資料的整理整理以利於這個接下來的這個會議的進行還有沒有意見 如果沒有就沒有要選會喔"},{"start":31275.117,"end":31275.577,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15354","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854f924cb68922450b90a0be61fea1481846d53a332764a53511a4bd7ddade59bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、外交部、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部、內政部、交通部、國家科學及技術委員會、財政部、金融監督管理委員會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會就「第二十八屆聯合國氣候變遷大會(COP28)返國報告與後續因應情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-14","start_time":"2023-12-14T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-14T11:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10530,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 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在COP28把台灣我們對於整個氣候變遷因應的做法跟全世界來分享"},{"start":2452.714,"end":2469.999,"text":"那剛剛有提到這一次COP28在阿拉伯聯合大公國杜拜來舉行那除了COP28之外事實上還有京都協定書第18次的第8方的大會"},{"start":2470.899,"end":2496.908,"text":"也就是所謂的CMP18以及巴黎協定第五次第二方大會也就是CMA5以及第59次附屬機構的會議SB59而同步進行有將近超過9萬人出席這次的會議可以說是COP舉辦到目前為止規模最大的一次"},{"start":2500.353,"end":2521.763,"text":"阿拉伯聯合大公國提出的四大行動主軸包括能源轉型與鈦除化石燃料解決氣候融資問題加速糧食系統轉型以及提升包容性的氣候行動"},{"start":2523.184,"end":2539.251,"text":"事實上我們在事先也對媒體記者來表達既然四大主題當中有特別強調提升包容性把台灣排除在DA方實在是非常諷刺的一個做法"},{"start":2540.373,"end":2568.023,"text":"那這個會議本來是要在12月12號就結束但是大家對化石燃料的減少跟剔除事實上有很大的疑議那最後妥協的結果是用一個中性的字眼就是轉型脫離化石燃料也就是英文變成Transition away from fossil fuel"},{"start":2569.383,"end":2595.976,"text":"那我想這個是大家後來非常期待的一個結果那我接下來把這一次的會議重點如列成三個大項來這邊報告那第一個就是在會議的第一天就獲得議會參與者大家的共識成立了損失與損害的基金也就是Loss and Damage Fund"},{"start":2598.033,"end":2602.764,"text":"到目前為止已經獲得多國承諾資助達到7.26億美元"},{"start":2608.257,"end":2629.648,"text":"那這基金現在是暫時由世界銀行來代為執行那部分的國家提議是應該是成立要新的組織來處理這些基金未來的一個使用跟申請的這個程序那目前在這一方面還在進行當中"},{"start":2631.969,"end":2648.204,"text":"那第二個重點是剛剛提到有關如何做能源的一個轉型那這裡面很清楚的第一國多數也都同意要在2030年"},{"start":2649.986,"end":2666.896,"text":"要把再生能源跟現在來比要達到三倍也就是說未來剩下的七年當中要增加兩倍的再生能源那同時要提升能源效率一倍"},{"start":2668.116,"end":2689.543,"text":"我想這兩點跟我們在去年國發會所發布的2050淨零排放路線圖事實上是不某而合這個是很令人欣慰我們可以說是超前部署另外在減碳科技來持續擴增發展"},{"start":2691.482,"end":2713.58,"text":"那剛剛也提到的化石燃料原本是從face down跟face out變成transition away from fossil fuel所以事實上是有比較中性的字眼但是在其層方面並沒有很明確的來說明到底要怎麼去transition away from fossil fuel"},{"start":2714.541,"end":2743.881,"text":"另外對於CCES的燃煤電廠應該要排除換句話說未來再探捕捉封存跟利用要來持續的強化也呼籲各國要取消對於低效化石燃料的補助同時強化零排放硬具的加強部署"},{"start":2745.081,"end":2760.586,"text":"第三個談到的是有關很多國家在會議當中也提出了一些倡議這些倡議涵蓋的面向也非常的多但是並沒有獲得多數國的一個認同"},{"start":2762.926,"end":2784.796,"text":"這裏面當然也包括氣候跟健康的宣言以及再生低碳氫能以及其衍生物的宣言以及全球冷卻行動的承諾這塊事實上也在我們2050的近年排放路徑圖裏面我們要持續來強化我們對於冷媒的使用等等"},{"start":2791.755,"end":2809.043,"text":"那接下來我針對我們這一次參議的一個情況在這邊跟各位委員報告那這一次的參議的部會剛剛事實上在主席裡面有提到"},{"start":2809.883,"end":2825.095,"text":"在座各個部會事實上都積極的參與除了各部會之外事實上我們的NGO以及我們的產業界、學術界跟研究單位也都積極的參與規模應該也是國內歷年來參加COP會議裡面最多的一次"},{"start":2832.08,"end":2842.349,"text":"在這邊也特別感謝我們大院四個黨團也分別有代表包括在座的洪森和瑞妍也蒞臨我們的會場來視導提供很多"},{"start":2847.754,"end":2849.314,"text":"提供我們很多的幫忙,在這邊也特別謝謝趙偉抵達會場。"},{"start":2869.71,"end":2884.757,"text":"那另外就是有關友邦的職員跟雙邊的會談方面今年除了友邦力挺我們之外很多沒有邦交國的這些代表跟國會議員也分別以書面"},{"start":2888.519,"end":2916.676,"text":"以及跟我們進行雙邊的一個會談來交換對於淨零轉型的一些心得總計今年我們進行的雙邊會談達到46場所以是相當相當的具有收穫那這邊也特別感謝行政院花園人還有我們外交部的長官"},{"start":2917.576,"end":2945.948,"text":"我就不把名字講出來事實上我們這一次也可以說是部會首長參與的層級人數最多人員也最多的一次那另外我在這邊也特別針對這一次為了COP28我們也在當地有做了包括宣傳車以及看板的一個廣告在捷運站等等"},{"start":2946.789,"end":2962.07,"text":"獲得相當正面的一個回應也特別感謝外交部在事先在各大媒體來進行投書包括環境部的投書等等後續來講我想這一次COP的"},{"start":2963.772,"end":2975.044,"text":"結論很清楚我們感到很欣慰的就是臺灣雖然不是第一方的一份子可是我們推動2050的淨零排放我們氣候變遷因應法的立法"},{"start":2981.27,"end":2997.535,"text":"等等的措施都讓第一方以及參與者對台灣推動淨零的決心感到非常的佩服那我在這邊也再一次呼籲我們在淨零排放的這個路徑上"},{"start":2998.355,"end":3017.593,"text":"我們持續地往前我相信世界都看到臺灣我們也會盡全力來推動我們的淨零排放路徑圖以上報告恭請執政也敬祝主席以及各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝 謝謝薛部長"},{"start":3025.359,"end":3052.915,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報不好意思 部長剛剛那個隔壁間要在審預算可能10點的時候 他們說10點左右會請您過去所以就要請您的請次長代理就這樣子 好 謝謝"},{"start":3055.652,"end":3081.256,"text":"現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出與其不受理今天沒有休息時間原則上11點半處理臨時提案10點半截止收案"},{"start":3082.973,"end":3086.335,"text":"現在請登記的第一位委員 洪聖翰 洪委員發言呃 請薛部長 然後李次長還有那個曾次長尤其行政單位官員們 謝謝"},{"start":3116.743,"end":3129.62,"text":"部長好兩位次長好那我想其實這一次COP28其實經歷了兩個禮拜的相關的會議每年都是這個國際上面秋變遷討論最重要的盛事之一齁"},{"start":3130.629,"end":3148.144,"text":"那這兩個禮拜裡面當然有很多重要的討論跟波折那一直到昨天應該是到甚至到昨天的深夜最後的這個共識其實才做了這個產出那我想大家其實都盯到最後一刻"},{"start":3149.065,"end":3167.429,"text":"那我想先問一個事情其實在這個第一週的這個談判裡面在第一週的會議進行的時間裡面有我覺得台灣的媒體做了蠻多的報導的一個事情就是這個好像有二十幾個國家那他們發出了這個所謂2050會要三倍"},{"start":3170.951,"end":3177.236,"text":"合能的這個倡議就部長就你了解這個事情是最後我們這個大會的結論跟共識嗎"},{"start":3179.929,"end":3202.512,"text":"沒有,事實上沒有得到共識,因為其他有共識的都將近200個國家,那剛剛宏偉提到才22個而且那22個大部分都是本身在這個核能發展以及產業方面事實上也算相當成熟的,他們使用核能力也很高"},{"start":3203.252,"end":3231.424,"text":"對 所以我們剛剛看到其實那幾天的媒體出來後我們有幾位在黨的總統候選哇 這非常非常興奮甚至直接把它寫成說這是COP28的共識我想這並不是一個事實好 那下面我想這個下一張那這個我想請問曾市長其實我想大家其實已經看到甚至現在有人把它定名為叫做這個UAE共識阿聯酋共識在阿聯酋共識裡面其實我們看到在這一次的談判裡面最清楚跟最具體的一個"},{"start":3232.844,"end":3254.749,"text":"一個條文其實就是在於我這邊標紅字2030年以前要將再生能源裝置量提升三倍以及每年平均的能源效率提升兩倍這部分這一段時間因為這個想法的提出來並不是在只是在最後包括在一開始會議的時候就提出來我想這部分經部有沒有做一些相關的幕僚作業跟討論"},{"start":3256.257,"end":3277.579,"text":"好那個謝謝委員就是說其實除了具體承諾跟能源有關的這大概這兩點是最重要的結論那除了這個以外其實一些具體的做法包括提供要讓供應鏈更有韌性等等很多還有包括協助開發中國家這些相關的工作其實我們都有把它整理起來"},{"start":3278.32,"end":3297.117,"text":"我簡單講兩個事情第一個有關於再生能源的部分其實除了第一個就是我們把現在成熟的再生能源能夠加速也讓它加量除了這個以外我們要更多元化的來發展再生能源這個是台灣現在政策正在推動的工作"},{"start":3297.797,"end":3313.482,"text":"我們也希望能夠把再生能源的裝置能夠盡快的再提升除此之外有關於委員提到能效的部分能效的部分大概簡單來講就是希望全球的年均能源效率改善目標能夠從2%"},{"start":3315.143,"end":3344.359,"text":"提升到4%是好那他的計算方法是用初級能源的供給去出GDP因為時間有限好那我簡單講委員從2016年到2022年臺灣的初級能源的能源密集度總共憑年均改善了4.2%是其實是他提了4.4%過去這幾年我們其實改善的量是比他要求的4%再多一點"},{"start":3344.619,"end":3372.454,"text":"好次長那我就更具體問下面一個問題那很多媒體都關注在這一次COP28的結論之後像這個最重要的再生能源三倍能效兩倍我們能不能夠針對這個結論來再做臺灣國內政策的加碼的承諾也就是順應這個國際上面再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍作為我們2030年再生能源跟能效的目標這部分我們有沒有辦法順應這個再做加碼的承諾"},{"start":3373.574,"end":3394.506,"text":"跟委員報告如果它基礎年是用2022年來做我們到2030年平均來講說我們的光電目前規劃的量是有會能夠達到三倍風電的量也應該會有2022年的時候的裝置容量的三倍所以這個都可以這個在裝置容量的增加上"},{"start":3395.206,"end":3415.121,"text":"是可以達成目標的所以再生能源三倍是可以承諾的是會達成目標的依照我們現在的規劃那除了這個以外第二個部分有關能源效率就是初級能源供給的密集度這一塊我們去年年均的改善是4.2%今年預估起來可能會有機會超過6%"},{"start":3417.723,"end":3443.879,"text":"就是供給量我們是使用量是下降了GDP是成長了所以我們改善的改善率是還不錯所以我們也希望2030年這個改善4%的目標能夠達成好所以我跟你們說現在我們台灣的政府也再次承諾了順應的目前這個COP28的這個共識的結論再生能源三倍跟能效兩倍相較於2022年這件事情我們是可以承諾的這沒問題吧對不對"},{"start":3445.24,"end":3463.571,"text":"對我跟委員報告我剛才的說明裡面是要講過去這幾年其實我們就順著這個軌跡在做你說我們就在這個軌跡上面對我們其實就是在這個方向上面所以這個承諾是我們可以承諾的事情我們希望能夠這個軌跡能夠繼續順利的往上走就是朝著這一個比例繼續改善好"},{"start":3464.298,"end":3491.537,"text":"那我覺得這部分很重要這當然也代表是國內的政策其實跟國際上面是很清楚的接軌的並沒有所謂違逆國際的趨勢跟方向這是第一點下面一個問題這次次長我要問其實在這次會議裡我們發現到有很多包括歐洲的國家因為歐洲戰爭的原因他們其實都花了很多力氣在提升能源效率的部分那當然台灣看起來因為我們能源價格變動沒有人家高所以我想問次長下面一個問題"},{"start":3493.482,"end":3503.209,"text":"我自己在想說現在經濟部有沒有對於各國尤其是這樣提升能源效率這些新的做法有密切的高度的掌握"},{"start":3504.825,"end":3530.767,"text":"這個部分委員的建議就是我們來做前瞻的那個技術的追蹤平台這個其實我們平常都在追啦但是沒有把它集合起來成為一個平台提供給大家參考我們來跟能源署我來要求能源署我們一起來做這個相關的事長這個問題其實是我想要接下來下一個問題但我現在想請學部長好下面部長我要問你你覺得我們達成2050淨零排放的目標有辦法只靠自己嗎"},{"start":3532.813,"end":3542.563,"text":"你覺得可以嗎只靠自己需要國內跨部會跟產業我說不是環境部我說台灣自己台灣自己可以只靠自己達成嗎"},{"start":3544.116,"end":3569.272,"text":"應該要跟大家合作啦需要跟大家合作對不對部長我這次其實去很明顯知道我們的淨零排放的這一件事情幾乎不可能只靠臺灣自己我們其實靠大量的國際合作下一張所以部長你覺得我們現在臺灣我們正在進行包括氣候跟淨零相關的國際合作足夠我們達成剛才說2050的排放這個淨零排放的這樣子的工作嗎我們現在的國際合作夠了嗎"},{"start":3570.356,"end":3579.665,"text":"我們還要繼續擴大國際的合作需要擴大嗎?部長說了,再往下我想到後面因為我時間上面有一些有限到最後一張"},{"start":3581.504,"end":3604.198,"text":"前面一張部長我自己有個具體的建議我認為就台灣我們就氣候或者是淨零來說我們的國際合作應該更有戰略性我提一件事情其實我們有很多的友邦國家在太平洋他們是太平洋的島國其實都是每次在氣候談判裡面非常重要也非常受阻力的所謂小島國家的聯盟"},{"start":3604.918,"end":3628.88,"text":"可是我們對於這些我自己也觀察我們恐怕是可以跟他們建立一個更清楚的甚至更具戰略意義的這個合作的關係甚至我們也可以幫他們發聲他們每次在這個氣候談判裡面都是大家最注目的一個聲音那也是我們最好合作的對象但我說實話我覺得我們現在對他們國內狀況的了解跟掌握我自己這次去完以後我覺得還不夠高"},{"start":3629.821,"end":3637.64,"text":"所以我覺得我們需要跟這系統性的戰略合作這是我想提的第一點的建議第二點就是剛剛跟次長在講到的問題"},{"start":3639.264,"end":3664.605,"text":"我們沒有辦法靠自己的力量就完成淨零轉型我們需要很多來自國際的新的技術前瞻的技術現在到底發展到最前緣是哪幾個國家哪幾個企業哪幾個公司哪幾個社群裡面已經有最新的Demo我們需要知道這件事情所以我覺得我們應該在這個國際合作的概念之下有一個最新的這個前瞻技術的一個追蹤的平臺這部分可能是經濟部其實應該可以扮演很多的角色"},{"start":3665.185,"end":3685.819,"text":"可能不只是能效包括再生能源包括氫能所有只要跟新的技術有關我們都不排斥我們都必須密切追蹤甚至我都覺得對於一些新的核能技術我們也該追蹤這我都同意再來一個事情是我們的發展的機制包括這些一些規範性的機制尤其像我知道現在我們很多產業都在討論CBAM都在討論歐盟的碳邊境調整"},{"start":3689.361,"end":3701.372,"text":"可是這只是大家現在只關注這個階段阿那請問下個階段呢下個階段其實也在討論中阿可是我想就環境部來說你們對歐盟可能下一個階段的CBAN目前掌握度到什麼程度"},{"start":3702.536,"end":3725.869,"text":"事實上不只歐盟包括我們跟美國跟新加坡、日本等國家也都有在接觸另外我針對剛剛洪文特別講到的中間這個部分事實上理事長或許也可以講今年7月份外交部就已經跟四個太平洋友邦部長我這邊就直接對不起因為時間有限我自己覺得我們其實應該在部層或國發會的部分直接應該來帶領一個"},{"start":3730.852,"end":3744.003,"text":"國際合作的專案這國際合作專案應該包括了前瞻技術包括小島國家的合作也包括一些新的治理機制的未來前瞻的進一步的發展我覺得這些事情可能拼湊起來我們對於"},{"start":3746.025,"end":3760.75,"text":"台灣在做淨零跟氣候變遷的問題上面跟國際上面的連結我覺得我們需要一個這個事情最後我要提醒一點我們都知道我們在UN裡面的參與是相對比較困難的我們對聯合國參與比較困難我覺得我們也需要發展更多在UN以外的"},{"start":3761.41,"end":3787.605,"text":"國際合作的參與的平台這部分我覺得是環境部現在還相對比較欠缺的部分我這邊其實有列了一些其實是在聯合國以外的參與機制我希望可以請部長再帶回去我們來討論哪些部分其實我們應該積極的再去參與而不只是說因為我們不是議員的締約國所以我們在這裡面談判會相對受限的問題其實在其他地方我們可以很好的發揮以上這個建議部長可不可以把這些建議帶到行政院或帶到國發會裡面跟"},{"start":3789.566,"end":3815.362,"text":"跟這個公主委跟陳院長來討論這事情是我們應該做的事情部長可以嗎可以 給洪文報告昨天下午就已經跟陳院長報告過了事實上剛剛洪文講的這個部分都有cover在那裡部長我們希望你們討論有一個好的結果那看可不可以在一個月後給我們相關的這個相關的規劃的訊息可以嗎一個月後可以好 謝謝謝謝洪文"},{"start":3818.455,"end":3839.726,"text":"謝鴻文 下一位請蘇喬惠蘇委員好 謝謝主席 我們請薛部長有請部長"},{"start":3847.329,"end":3861.084,"text":"蘇委員好部長好部長跟幾位委員有實地到COP28的現場去看過確實帶回了很多第一手的資料所以剛剛洪委員講的我其實很想說洪委員講的我們都贊成我們直接簽聯署請部長直接照做"},{"start":3864.207,"end":3889.601,"text":"不過這個有一些細節的部分確實部長還可以請你再多做說明一點比如說剛剛說這個決議的部分洪委員剛剛提到了因為同樣的這樣的一個會議開下來在時間的不同當中也有各種不同的團體不同的國家集結成不同意見的發送但我們必須說COP28的結論應該只有一個吧"},{"start":3892.462,"end":3903.859,"text":"應該只有一個這樣問好了來部長這次的會議到底有沒有結論有沒有有事實上他們有有結論嘛這個結論在什麼時候發出昨天下午昨天嘛昨天下午最後一個"},{"start":3905.046,"end":3929.491,"text":"不用啦 部長 這個問題很簡單啦有沒有結論嘛 有嘛 有什麼時候發出的 這個結論昨天下午啊 昨天嘛所以昨天以前的都不叫大會結論 對吧不是 那個都是倡議而已都是倡議而已嘛所以大會結論是在昨天才發出的嘛而且就是我們現在列出來這個也是你剛剛報告的現在我的投影片這個這個才是昨天這一次本屆今年COP28的結論可以這樣說嘛好 那部長"},{"start":3932.912,"end":3957.267,"text":"部長我想請問一下請你用一點簡短的回答你剛剛在回答洪委員的時候我們有提到的是國內有人據說他直接在12月5號的時候就已經把這個某一次的倡議變成了28會議的結論然後大肆宣揚這中間其實在講的就是對核能的態度所以我們回到前夜好不好回到前夜"},{"start":3958.898,"end":3978.795,"text":"我想請你在這個備詢台上你再次的說明在COP28裡面對於核能的態度到底是什麼他的比重談論到的狀況是如何請你簡單說明一下是的我在事實上在看到國內這個報導之後我馬上接受媒體的聯訪"},{"start":3980.797,"end":4001.597,"text":"我表達得非常清楚現階段核能對台灣而言是假議題部長我想先請問你的是COP28它的結論當中提到核能有多少那並且它把核能列為一個什麼樣的狀況它是倡議裡面是希望2050年那是倡議我現在問的是結論啊結論沒有啊"},{"start":4005.801,"end":4022.542,"text":"結論有啦結論還是有啦在結論當中他是在加快零排放和低排放技術發展的這一項當中在這一項當中把核能確實有放進去我們就事論事嘛他把核能有放進去在這個"},{"start":4024.063,"end":4043.456,"text":"加快零排放及低排放技術的發展當中有列進去但這表示他就是把核能列為綠電嗎其實也不盡然嘛也不盡然但他確實表示這是一個可能降低碳排的技術之一對不對所以我們必須說其實在整個COP28的這個結論當中大會結論當中有提到核能沒有錯但"},{"start":4047.939,"end":4065.171,"text":"它是把它列為應該要繼續發展的新技術之一但不是前面所說的在22個國家裡面提出的倡議當中說哎呀我們全世界就是應該要用三倍數的方向來發展核能完全沒有這件事情嘛對不對"},{"start":4065.871,"end":4080.966,"text":"完全沒有這件事情嘛結論跟倡議是不一樣的狀況之下在結論我們甚至是也沒有倡議的這樣的內容這個應該是可以部長在這裡以一個參與過的以一個部長的身份在這裡向全國公開再次聲明吧"},{"start":4081.667,"end":4097.265,"text":"是沒有所謂在2050年要把核能三倍的這個結論完全沒有但是核能對某些國家它可以變成再生能源甚至它"},{"start":4098.005,"end":4100.107,"text":"對台灣來講核能的發展是一個假議題你可不可以在這裡再一次表示核能的發展是假議題這句話是什麼意思"},{"start":4124.605,"end":4152.406,"text":"其實你也有前提啊是你也有前提啊你的報紙我都還幫你選必須在三個前提之下獲得確保之後台灣去發展核電我相信那時候大家是可以接受的那我們並不是說沒有把它列入我們的未來發展方向就不會去就忽略掉核能事實上我們很多協助研究單位持續針對核能的研發所以是哪三個條件"},{"start":4153.046,"end":4169.275,"text":"所以是哪三個條件部長第一個確保核能的安全第二個核廢料獲得妥善的處理第三個有全民共識我想這三個應該那在這三個當中其實最難的其實就是你這次說的嘛就核廢未解決所以談核電是假議題嘛"},{"start":4169.935,"end":4176.121,"text":"為什麼會這樣講的原因是因為現在在發展核電的國家當中我們必須說其實他們都是屬於有能力或者有現況可以處理核廢料的部分的國家嘛那在這些國家當中其實很大一個條件大部分的就是地廣人稀他有一個空間可以去處理核廢那偏偏台灣的狀況就是地狹人稠恰恰相反"},{"start":4194.958,"end":4215.665,"text":"所以以從過去到現在來講甚至不管是哪一個政黨執政沒有一個中央政府現在還沒有辦法處理最終處置場的問題啊所以在沒有辦法處理核廢之前其實你核電技術再怎麼發展除非你有辦法發展到我們做核電都完全沒有核廢料"},{"start":4216.385,"end":4237.708,"text":"或讓這個核廢料是所有人都認為它是安全的科學檢測它也是安全的我現在說的是核廢料還不是核能發電而已喔在這樣的狀況下才有空間台灣才有可能進行到共識的這個部分嘛 對不對所以部長我們今天在這裡要把幾個層次分清楚一個是世界對於核電的態度是什麼"},{"start":4238.228,"end":4259.625,"text":"另外一個是臺灣到底有沒有條件來使用核電而臺灣使用核電的前提是我們到底有沒有辦法處理核廢料所以這幾個層次其實部長你應該像念經一樣不停的不停的對全國來做一個宣達也就是全國人民要認知到的是我們在討論使用核電之前的前提是到底我們臺灣有沒有能耐"},{"start":4261.827,"end":4273.752,"text":"有沒有縣市願意接受處理核廢料成為在你身邊的最終處置場就是這樣子而已其他的技術都是另外的問題所以在這樣的狀況下部長我再次的說其實資訊的傳達真的是非常重要所以"},{"start":4280.154,"end":4296.219,"text":"這題如此那另外一個題目我覺得可能會變成新的狀況是你剛剛在在的說氣候損失與損害基金是這一次COP28的結論重要結論之一那臺灣也表示我們願意參與甚至是先行參與這個基金的這個建制"},{"start":4297.259,"end":4321.56,"text":"以致於我們未來可以參與更多的組織面向那我想請你簡短的回答請問我們是要用什麼樣的名義捐助捐助多少何時捐預算來源想要達到什麼樣的效果這個部分你始終還沒有做過解釋請你現在解釋我先講一個案例就是剛剛我跟洪委員有提到我們今年7月份外交部吳部長跟我們太平洋"},{"start":4322.28,"end":4330.467,"text":"四個友邦國家包括帛琉、諾魯還有馬薩爾以及另外一個國家"},{"start":4331.058,"end":4357.882,"text":"成立一個Just Transition Fund那我們台灣已經提供10 million就是一千萬美元去做那個基金所以同樣我對媒體也講過假如我們能夠實際參與COP的第一國的大會那台灣願意履行會員的一個責任我們來捐那當然這個經費要捐多少就必須要我們"},{"start":4358.942,"end":4382.696,"text":"行政院或者甚至是更高的成績因為我想大家都會更想要知道說我們這個的預算是從哪一個部門哪一個項目來出來那另外這個預算能夠達到的效果是什麼比如說你剛剛說我們已經跟這四個國家有過這樣子的一個基金變成一個團體那麼請問一下這一次在大會當中他們對我們的態度如何"},{"start":4382.836,"end":4410.162,"text":"非常正面他們在聯合國大會氣候大會裡面事實上為我們發聲覺得不應該遺漏任何一個國家或地區那我們為什麼當時選擇這四個國家因為太平洋島國這個事實上是比較嚴重我這一次跟很多包括加勒比海我們的友邦他們都紛紛跟我表達說希望他們能夠加入這個基金所以事實上反應很正面我昨天跟院長跟是嗎"},{"start":4410.982,"end":4431.238,"text":"所以這是一個正向的發展因為我們選擇這幾個國家是他們跟我們一樣都屬於海島型國家大家都是會面對氣候變遷首當其衝的國家而在這一些條件的國家當中台灣是屬於比較有能力的國家所以我們率先出來這等於是台灣can help的再一次的證明嘛"},{"start":4431.678,"end":4437.54,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下我們果然因此收獲了善意的循環所以他們願意幫我們在大會發聲那我們當然期待這個可以繼續下去我想部長因為他確實是動用了國家的預算所以其他的委員一定會繼續的追問你成效如何我期待的是你能夠像剛剛使用何能的這一題你念經也好啦你就是一樣的東西一直講一定要說到大家都能夠懂"},{"start":4460.527,"end":4473.462,"text":"大家都能夠耳熟能詳大家就知道國家政策的方向是如此這般那你才有可能得到追隨者嘛所以在這裡的話我是希望部長能夠把這個部分再講更清楚一點好繼續傳達謝謝部長好謝謝蘇委員好謝謝謝謝蘇委員有請吳益勤委員"},{"start":4487.637,"end":4500.161,"text":"謝謝主席我要先請經濟部的曾次長還有我們環境部學務部長以及農業部的王玉珍王副司長謝謝"},{"start":4504.377,"end":4518.667,"text":"首先先有請行政單位曾次長我先請教你因為有關經濟部的議題這是COP這個第28次的第一大會裡面針對有關轉型脫離化石燃料的一個"},{"start":4519.547,"end":4543.074,"text":"共識裡面有幾項要來跟經濟部討論一下因為接下來這樣的一個目標那檢視我們國內的情形到底達標或是這個難度有沒有很高剛剛其實洪森漢我也有稍微提到比如說我們這個COP28的結論裡面再生能源要成長三倍增至三倍那如果照我們現在的情形來講臺灣的這個再生能源現在是大概佔了整個總"},{"start":4547.555,"end":4551.08,"text":"總發電量的8.26那如果在2030年2022年的時候那接下來我們如果要到2030年要到成長三倍我是大概估算了它的總電量的增加2%"},{"start":4563.857,"end":4583.868,"text":"然後這個再生能源大概要達到24.8%左右如果這樣估算應該是合理那如果其實我們從我們2050年淨零排放的規劃裡面其實再生能源要達到60到70看起來應該我們2030年這個因為我們中間沒有一個中間的目標值"},{"start":4584.969,"end":4590.311,"text":"從經濟部在估算的過程中應該是循序漸進的成長嗎我們2030年要達到24.8這個目標可行嗎跟委員報告就是兩個部分第一個部分是您這一頁簡報裡面提到2030年24.8那個國發會的規劃是要農業部門做到27到30所以要求還更高第二個部分跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":4614.26,"end":4622.848,"text":"這次COP28它在計算的時候是算那個裝置容量我們的裝置容量到2030是依照我們的規劃是絕對會超過三倍的那個是我們現在規劃起來的量以2022年大概14個Giga來做基礎的話我們到2030年會超過40個Giga是目標值"},{"start":4637.621,"end":4658.912,"text":"是目標我們會超過40個Giga所以以這個要求來講再生能源裝置能量成長三倍或是委員提的這一頁簡報就是發電量要比2020年成長三倍都是我們的目標我們也覺得達成的機會非常非常的高那就能源的配置上面這個再生能源是我們現在風力發電路上風電海上風電地面光電屋頂光電還有沒有地熱"},{"start":4665.896,"end":4686.335,"text":"第一個就是我們家大概有三個重要的目標第一個就是加速然後這是既有的一些技術另外一個是就是要讓它更多元化除了風跟光以外地熱是我們接下來第三個最重要的再生能源當然也會配合水利"},{"start":4687.511,"end":4694.295,"text":"好還有水利的部分好謝謝那接下來也要請教您一下就是這個煤電的減排的部分還是我們經濟部的議題那在這個因為我們在這次的COP28裡面也談到說應該要去發展這個所謂碳補桌副排放的"},{"start":4707.242,"end":4707.262,"text":"致獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":4731.524,"end":4755.564,"text":"碳補儲的技術把它抓下來那我要問的是這個量應該很大吧?那未來怎麼儲存?董委員報告就是說這一次跟化石燃料有關的從Face-out一路改變成純芯而為其實化石燃料也有不同的類型燃煤、燃油、天然氣三個的排碳量排碳密度是不一樣的"},{"start":4756.525,"end":4773.984,"text":"那其實這次天然氣的角色也有被特別突出當然它必須配合CCS它必須配合CCS就是碳捕捉封存或是碳捕捉再利用那碳捕捉封存再利用這裡面算到了這個四千萬噸這是您的報告裡面提到的對這是國發會當時在算整個路徑的時候估算的"},{"start":4778.188,"end":4799.995,"text":"那這個CCS的部分現在正在發展中我想說有幾個事情包含我們跟國科會合作的相關項目現在包含國內的地質學者因為台灣的西岸其實事實上是有一些適合的地層能夠來做那個碳的封存但是捕捉的技術"},{"start":4801.255,"end":4821.152,"text":"現在要跟全世界一起合作因為碳的捕捉跟託付然後在封存的中間怎麼樣子能夠提升它的效率捕捉效率也就是說2050年我們碳捕捉的技術可能還會不斷去精進其實這幾年大家包括很多國際上很多大公司都在做這一塊"},{"start":4821.812,"end":4839.527,"text":"我再問的是說這些固化的二氧化碳你捕捉下來的會變成碳酸鈣嗎那這些的儲存你剛剛也提到說西部有地方可以放因為我在估算這個量的時候其實它大概會每四年就可以在大安森林公園這個面積上堆了一座101"},{"start":4841.008,"end":4870.508,"text":"所以這個量蠻大的所以去化啦或是你們有在思考這個問題嗎跟委員報告因為它那個地質上面的尺度因為如果可以的話我們其實應該找這一個專門學門的學者來啦我只是聽他們的說明以後轉述一下我怕有點不精準但它那個整個規它現在估算出來的一個量是遠高於因為這個是0.4億噸一年他們算出來的更高"},{"start":4872.809,"end":4896.038,"text":"對,是比這個還要高的而且它是打到海水底下的淹水層它有一些他們的做法我覺得那個很多技術細節如果在這裡講是,了解到2050年其實很多的技術還有很多課題要面對我想我們政府都聽剛剛政策長這樣講是有在思考的不是完全沒有去想這些事好,謝謝"},{"start":4897.798,"end":4921.208,"text":"再討論這些事情因為這個技術還是有很多要來討論的好 謝謝那我接下來要問有關這一次在COP28裡面也提到甲烷要清零這個是要問農業部跟環境部的部分那我們知道甲烷的一個排放我們2023年的國家排放清澈有記載的有所在就是那個2021年我們甲烷的排放大概是445"},{"start":4924.231,"end":4926.434,"text":"二氧化碳的當量這樣的一個情形其實農業的部分大概佔了188萬噸廢棄物大概佔了180萬噸接下來我們要如果到2030年要所謂的"},{"start":4942.477,"end":4964.764,"text":"這個甲碗淨零請問那個畜牧業因為最主要那個甲碗當然是畜牧業還有我們的廢棄物這個農業部跟環境部有什麼想法給吳委員報告有關廢棄物的部分我們已經在推動就是驗養、發酵然後產生早期的這個部分已經有一些試換的場域所以2030年要清零有沒有問題因為他的目標也是2030年要清零這個甲碗"},{"start":4972.635,"end":4994.654,"text":"跟委員報告最主要我們那個會區主要來自掩埋場掩埋有幾乎造成還有污水場對還有污水場的污泥這個部分那在掩埋場的部分目前我們的這個掩埋場有48座是封閉之後設置太陽能這大概是綜合的部分"},{"start":4995.205,"end":5014.558,"text":"那早期發電在短期之內如果能夠負極的我們會發電如果比較沒有辦法負極的我們是破壞做早期收集的這部分所以目前以高峰相比的話整個掩埋場的甲烷排放量已經降到10%左右了就是降到以前的"},{"start":5014.938,"end":5015.238,"text":"農業部主席"},{"start":5033.913,"end":5052.364,"text":"簡單跟委員報告我們在畜牧產業的部分除了就是說我們積極推動有情緒分尿的資源化處理所有的家庭家序那包括就是說你們也是豔陽發酵嗎對 株枝的部分的話是而且我們已經超過250萬頭以上有在做早期的一個再利用"},{"start":5053.3,"end":5062.991,"text":"是,所以也是朝這個目標應該解決啦好,謝謝那最後我要問那個環境部了來環境部給你一點時間回應這個氣候變遷績效的CCPI對我們台灣的評價說我們告訴第七"},{"start":5071.805,"end":5097.361,"text":"或是我們威視氣體排放倒數第四再生能源比例好像也太低能源耗用跟節能也表現極差我們有那麼差嗎?實際上這個CCPI它的方法學是完全錯誤跟整個COP28、DA大家要追求的方向完全相反"},{"start":5098.441,"end":5121.761,"text":"舉個例子菲律賓跟印度既然排名第六名跟第七名他們在過去這一年碳排量都增加了60、70%而且還在增加燃煤化電廠所以這個完全是違背我們一般的認知更何況我們人均台灣只能每個人一年排2.7萬噸在2030年"},{"start":5124.583,"end":5140.815,"text":"結果菲律賓、印度它可以排到七頓到八頓同樣是人為什麼他們會那麼高所以我們就是說這個CCPI根本是不值得去討論不用花時間去討論我們國內也有寫著發表文章來反駁這個CCPI"},{"start":5145.678,"end":5172.677,"text":"雖然部長這樣講可是當國際的一個應該是NGO來對我們這樣的評價其實對我們來講還是國際形象還是有傷的聯合國另外有一個歐盟的氣候研究中心它的評比裡面在210個國家我們是排45名那個才是根據減碳量的表現所以我們45名在210個裡面我們是前段班的"},{"start":5173.297,"end":5198.115,"text":"好那這個CCPI他才選67個國家去年63個國家進了67個國家那在我們後面還包括韓國、加拿大阿美國跟日本也都大概跟我們都一樣都五六十名所以我個人覺得就是說我們國內我們應該對自己的國家有信心對我們的排碳的努力雖然我們還沒有達到完美的境界但是我們一直朝這個方向努力應該給大家"},{"start":5199.917,"end":5213.033,"text":"我們在政策方面CGPI也對我們的國家的政策肯定我們在政策的部分排名24那它是排碳量這一部分把我們排到很後面因為它的方法根本就錯誤了"},{"start":5214.794,"end":5215.214,"text":"謝謝有請林維周林委員"},{"start":5253.65,"end":5270.183,"text":"謝謝昭緯我們請薛部長有請薛部長林委好薛部長這一次你有去參加這個COP是會議嗎是有嗎有你是做什麼艙"},{"start":5272.764,"end":5297.099,"text":"經濟艙還是商務艙商務艙OK你只要規定嘛部長級的按照可以做商務艙是對不對啊有沒有被升等升成頭等艙有沒有應該有吧你有你有升等成頭等艙沒有因為這個都是幕僚安排所以你是做頭等艙去的誰幫你升等的你知道嗎"},{"start":5299.703,"end":5308.947,"text":"整個形成這些說明一下請你們的幕僚幫忙說明誰幫部長升等頭等艙的跟委員報告這個是按照那個行政院的規定行政院規定只能做商務艙喔部會首長是如果有提供這個頭等艙的話是可以的"},{"start":5326.207,"end":5350.665,"text":"你們是買頭等艙還是買商務艙我們是買頭等艙買的時候就買頭等艙這是符合規定嗎你要確定還是被升等的原來就是買頭等艙按照規定來的不過這個以後我們還是可以檢討有必要一定要做頭等艙嗎"},{"start":5352.895,"end":5362.643,"text":"商務艙我從來沒有做過頭等艙我不知道頭等艙會是什麼什麼樣的滋味商務艙已經很好了我做過商務艙所以這個將來預算上我們再來檢討好來我們談其他你請部長留著"},{"start":5374.75,"end":5382.355,"text":"這個 我們先看一下你們的這個網站不是啦 FB的這個粉專最近你們貼了好幾篇 這一個禮拜貼好幾篇跟本頁無關的這個內容幫行政院在大內宣長照2.0溫暖照顧"},{"start":5401.718,"end":5404.24,"text":"環境部你不是衛福部啊打造溫暖而堅韌的台灣講疫情"},{"start":5414.721,"end":5436.499,"text":"特別條例照顧台灣這跟你有什麼關係?跟環境部有什麼關係?給林委員報告行政院的部位是一體的啦大內宣這個跟大內宣沒有關係啦給林委員報告行政院底下的各部位是一體的那這個部分已經有難怪那個按戰術30、40"},{"start":5439.903,"end":5440.583,"text":"這幾天大家都在討論這個COP會議"},{"start":5453.584,"end":5468.556,"text":"到底在談哪一些內容臺灣還有哪一些可以做得更好的對不對 要專注在本業貼這個也沒人看你們那個評價兩顆星啊你們那個FB的這個評價兩顆星加油啦注重本業啦這才是你的專業嘛"},{"start":5479.009,"end":5504.034,"text":"謝謝林委員 這個本頁當然也注重啦那個比例啊 你那一個禮拜貼三篇就貼的全部是大內宣跟貴部毫無關係的貼文這個行政院有行政院他的這個網站嘛或是他的FB粉絲專頁社團他去貼嘛 你們要注重本頁好 我們來問一下就是說你去參加了這個COP"},{"start":5505.748,"end":5530.265,"text":"二十八28這個會議當然大家在講說我們到底有沒有進步從27到現在27屆到28屆有沒有進步但是因為指標的關係有的NGO評論我們是退步那你們一直講說我們是進步進步的好吧這個就各有各的這個"},{"start":5532.358,"end":5541.004,"text":"指標它採樣的指標的不同不過還是因為這個是叫做德國看守"},{"start":5542.605,"end":5562.673,"text":"的一個NGO每年我知道一個NGO他CCPI每年都會評但是大家也都會參考所以還是注意一下看他用什麼樣的評你剛剛有做了一部分的解釋不過針對這幾項我們把它拿出來看就是針對"},{"start":5569.793,"end":5591.878,"text":"整體表現 這個我們就不講因為整體表現到底用哪一些指標加總起來的然後我們看它的內容臺灣在溫室氣體排放及能源使用中的成績非常差在再生能源和氣候政策方面則是比較差的差評非常差的是能源使用"},{"start":5600.409,"end":5619.899,"text":"這部分我覺得啊是有值得我們檢討的你知道我們現在的能源的發電的組合火力發電佔多少火力發電裡面大概有燃煤、燃氣大概各自相近40%左右嘛所以佔八成啊是"},{"start":5620.728,"end":5638.563,"text":"可是我們已經在再生能源已經從幾乎大概1、2%到現在已經10%了我想這個成長速率大概在國際上排名應該是前段班啦火力發電的降低比例啊做得不好"},{"start":5639.974,"end":5650.698,"text":"我們先從用天然氣來期待煤我們能源都是以進口為主所以各位應該也都知道天然氣不是代表乾淨的能源"},{"start":5654.858,"end":5675.86,"text":"他排...他會排什麼?他會排哪一些?氣體?二氧化碳...也是氣體會,但是他的排...他也是化石原料吧?是,沒錯,但是他的量...大家都要減少化石原料的使用嘛所以這一次的COP他為什麼不敢直接講說Face-up Fossil Fuel?"},{"start":5676.36,"end":5698.593,"text":"你看他也是自己最後必須因為有人反對阿阿拉伯國家反對阿為什麼會反對就是因為他不實際因為他生產石油阿為什麼反對難道你要幫他講話嗎因為我們沒有生產石油這是趨勢嘛這是趨勢嘛"},{"start":5706.516,"end":5714.82,"text":"阿你要幫他們講話說 因為這個沒有通過大家的共識不是幫他們講話啦 因為我們也沒有生產食用 對啊我們要有自己的 是 沒錯 達到2050我們要對自己有信心啦 能夠淨零碳排阿你的 欸 能源那一塊是最主要的啦好啦 我提供幾個 好"},{"start":5730.738,"end":5755.794,"text":"這個二十七的時候他們特別提到臺灣的中火、麥寮電、興達電還有中鋼、林口火力發電被點名是全球最髒的五百個碳排放源全球最髒的五百大"},{"start":5757.079,"end":5772.41,"text":"我們就佔了幾個中火、麥寮電、興達電、中鋼、林口電今年COP28我們台灣政府又被點名說減碳不僅沒有改善還更退步所以這個齁這個這個能源政策齁其實關係到我們整個"},{"start":5786.027,"end":5810.498,"text":"這個2050要達到淨零碳排最大的關鍵點就在能源政策了如果我們的火力發電不管是煤或是天然氣一直沒有辦法減少我們要達到那樣的目標叫做緣木求魚啦那個都是全球500大排碳排最多的500大在我們台灣你說我們做得多好"},{"start":5816.388,"end":5829.055,"text":"有必要 這個我們慢慢來討論有必要整體檢討我們的能源尤其是電因為電是源頭啦你產生電才能讓企業"},{"start":5833.964,"end":5854.381,"text":"運轉讓汽車你即使全部改把它改成電動汽車不直接排碳二氧化碳但是你用的電如果是火力發電這些在路上跑的汽車電車用的還是火力的東西火力的能源所以那個源頭我們要好好的來探討"},{"start":5855.492,"end":5883.805,"text":"好今天時間的關係以後我們再找時間探討等一下我們要去草野協商了好謝謝林委員好謝謝謝謝林委員有請邱太元邱委員好謝謝主席首先謝謝主席排這個有COP28齁"},{"start":5885.56,"end":5913.347,"text":"勾引出我們在這個會期雖然快要結束但是非常重要也是將來不管是政府各部門要努力的一個方向我想今天非常有意義來感謝各部門的努力是不是我看因為我講的比較跟健康但是因為跟環境部還是有關係我再請薛部長好了那衛福部是周市長來來請"},{"start":5915.259,"end":5934.76,"text":"我們一起來分享一下好不好好,有請行政單位,謝謝好,我們看下一張,因為時間的關係好,我們看這一張來講,我會比較Focus在健康Health Risk這個部分Climate Change跟Risk這個部分"},{"start":5936.151,"end":5958.965,"text":"當然我們在2003年世界醫事會世界醫事會擁有1100個醫師世界上它的發動力量是很夠的分佈在都會當然也很多在偏鄉地區在服務其實在2003年的一個宣言尤其是針對一個基層醫療Permanent Health Care當然講它的針對"},{"start":5960.609,"end":5980.055,"text":"當然不只climate change啦當然現在慢性病越來越多流行病的risk也一直承受人類在承受環境的衝擊那個氣候的變遷對健康的影響還有抗生素的一個resistance"},{"start":5983.372,"end":6010.924,"text":"抗藥性等等的都是在未來很重要的那他有特別強調當然基層醫療的action是非常重要的鎖住第一線來建立整個韌性的一個醫療防疫健康體系所以這樣的一個情況那加上COP右邊這邊是COP的主席我們都知道這個碳排空氣汙染"},{"start":6011.84,"end":6036.05,"text":"大概都是對健康非常的有影響我很敬佩我一個學生現在是大嶺慈濟醫院的副院長林明蘭多年來其實他已經奮鬥很久了也算是臺灣之光了像世界上相關的議程都會請他過去我最近也開始跟他密切的來瞭解他來做什麼"},{"start":6037.369,"end":6053.964,"text":"希望把它推展到醫療體系我想這個部分先跟兩位首長說明一下再看下一張好了因為我的問題可能在後面剛好也是我們每一年世界醫師會跟台灣醫師會都會在台灣辦理一個國際研討會"},{"start":6058.379,"end":6069.148,"text":"那不管是外交部或者是衛福部都很熱烈的來執行每一點都相關的都很重要的主題今年的主題是全球健康安全醫療照護體系"},{"start":6070.831,"end":6090.086,"text":"其實我們請的兩個重量級的世界總統都有接見這個女生是世界醫師會會長這男生是理事會主席是韓國韓國他們不約而同都把最近一年的我們在12月半所以都會把今年度大概世界醫師會在全世界各國"},{"start":6091.277,"end":6111.272,"text":"在演講的主題最重要的提到我們這裡因為兩個主題不約而同都在講climate change跟健康的關係而且講得非常精彩我們國內的演講者在這方面還是在防疫以後總要建立一個韌性的一個"},{"start":6112.412,"end":6133.161,"text":"所以他們還稍微好像前進一點點,我們要趕快接上這個進度所以今天的我覺得今天的會議很重要,我們今天會議應該要有一些未來希望呼籲政府或者是全民間各種NEO甚至EJ我們怎麼樣來做,我想這個部分環境部跟"},{"start":6134.318,"end":6157.259,"text":"拜託環境部跟衛福部能夠擔任起這個領導的責任不要到下一次COP29又要來討論一次中間就是按照我們原來的規劃、計畫一直在進行這樣可能我整個review起來可能跟不上時代那我們看下一張氣候當然變遷會造成這個我想我們用眼睛看比較快"},{"start":6159.05,"end":6181.971,"text":"造成區域的差跡與大疾病的形態還有不要忘記心理健康跟社會心理這個部分一直在過去我們裡面沒有我們在檢討我也希望衛福部在以後注意到這個部分和他們change對mental、psychosocial方面的問題對老人家的衝擊我想這不言而喻多的是更有健康很多健康上的問題"},{"start":6186.192,"end":6211.18,"text":"那我這張是希望提出來我要請衛福部這是在我們這次的國際研討會裡面大概大致上我覺得我們一個醫師他是用醫師啦因為是世界醫師會嘛大概有幾個工作可以這樣做我請衛福部我能夠帶回去"},{"start":6212.591,"end":6240.775,"text":"去看看檢討這些將來可不可以未來怎麼樣我們來配合這樣一個趨勢我們未來可不可以做哪些事情已經在做哪些事情了或者在做哪些事情我想這個非常重要讓醫療體系趕快來接上而不是只有在醫療體系還在盤查還在現已盤查探盤查的階段看起來這樣對不來就失敗所以拜託我們好不好?次長可以嗎?好可以"},{"start":6241.595,"end":6264.385,"text":"我希望因為這個會期現在12月,你一國外可以拿一個報告給我們未完嗎?給我們展開為了這一屆的Ending跟下一屆像我們黃雀旺委員這樣繼續再去努力的方向啦好不好,這個大概最重要當然就是說,還有就是可能要有資源進來啦"},{"start":6267.217,"end":6290.482,"text":"今年談預算大概都沒有這個方面的預算但是明年是不是未來我們必須要做這些事情或是重要的我們就來編預算當然包括從前面的先導、專業人的教育、研究不要讓這些研究、關心climate change的這些同仁們"},{"start":6292.768,"end":6311.716,"text":"花了1、2十年的研究還是被很寂寞的在那邊做他們過去的努力也帶領到台灣治理至少不要落後現在我們要給他溫暖、給他支持然後利用他們過去的經驗、成果我們繼續來努力這也是我們吳釗緯應該他的心願當然最重要就是有一個更...所以這一個我拜託那個"},{"start":6321.19,"end":6340.76,"text":"衛福部當然我也希望我過去在這裡也是部會也都不是說你負責什麼都彼此有關係像我們過去衛福部、勞動部也有很多合作的我相信環境部如果在健康跟climate change裡面也有很多合作的平台也很高興我們學部長、學校長"},{"start":6343.499,"end":6371.301,"text":"我們跟國衛院有很多空氣跟健康的工作創起了我們中興大學的醫學系,這個非常的厲害所以我想他對這個部分能夠了解我也拜託衛福部,環境部可以帶回去看看這些問題,可以從你那邊走過來幫忙好我們看下一張有一些建議,我當然是也在這邊"},{"start":6374.465,"end":6397.48,"text":"因為要兩個部來幫忙所以其實我的問題是WMA有很多的建議那目前因為我主要focus在醫療、健康所以我想這整個環境的變化所影響的當然很多很多各部會都有那針對WMA的建議目前政府落實哪些未來要做哪些也在這一次的一個"},{"start":6399.055,"end":6423.334,"text":"大概一個月給我們一個看做多少算多少,未來有什麼構想?看下一張因為現在台灣的行動缺乏氣候變遷可能造成其他問題都沒有把健康問題納入在氣候變遷行動的核心所以我想這個部分希望未來衛福部跟環境部在規劃的時候能把"},{"start":6425.551,"end":6453.445,"text":"造成的驚豪,何況這次你看全部國家簽最多國家簽最多國家簽的先年就是climate change and health是沒錯那個部長帶回去跟部長出去訪查一定很累他這種魔鬼他非常有精神但是我想也會收復很多一定也帶很多那邊開會的會以後會對國家對台灣會有很大的貢獻"},{"start":6455.739,"end":6483.681,"text":"也感謝上上禮拜我們到澎湖也去考察了一些澎湖相關環境、垃圾的問題部長親自帶隊他以一個澎湖長大的小孩有如此的成就但是還是很瞭解到地方的需求給我們很多環境部未來要做的事情給我們收穫很多也感謝"},{"start":6486.005,"end":6512.877,"text":"不會裡面的同仁來參與我覺得那個對澎湖的發展也是非常重要在這邊特別感謝我剛剛提了這些就請那個次長一各位幫忙報告因為接下來我們將要未來我們國家怎麼做、醫界怎麼做我們是未來服役的先副長這邊也幫忙一下好謝謝邱委員特別謝謝吳釗緯"},{"start":6515.182,"end":6524.752,"text":"今天排的這樣子很有意義的一個大家討論好感謝大家謝謝好謝謝邱委員好謝謝下一位請黃秀芳黃委員謝謝主席我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":6543.045,"end":6558.341,"text":"黃委員部長好部長我今天先幾個議題跟民眾可能比較有切身關係就是我們在淨零轉型的政策當中那也一直鼓勵我們的民眾要去這個最切身的就是說可能有原本的這個"},{"start":6559.162,"end":6560.402,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生福利部長"},{"start":6587.709,"end":6598.792,"text":"環境部跟經濟部是不是有什麼樣的這個配套可以鼓勵民眾去購買這個電動機車那一方面這個也是我們的政策嘛對不對那像這樣子的話你們要怎麼樣讓這個電動機車的這個市售的這個比例能夠提升"},{"start":6608.201,"end":6636.652,"text":"剛剛黃委員的確提到過去三年事實上我們有推動太舊換新但是那時候的確沒有把它列為說換新是應該換電動車那民眾都還是去選擇燃油的因為它價格比較便宜不過我們現在已經在第二期在推動已經有改變做法我們除了鼓勵民眾太舊換新之外"},{"start":6637.072,"end":6662.112,"text":"事實上這個心是電動機車為主那同時增加一個增量抵換換句話說我想這個事業開發單位假如他們包括有一些鹽區要增設它有一些污染排放鹽它可以給民眾誘因去轉換為電動車那就可以有那個"},{"start":6662.913,"end":6684.195,"text":"其實有幾項原因第一個可能比較貴這個也是原因之一再來就是說電池的交換站其實不是那麼便利這個也是原因之一所以我不知道說像可能在市區還比較方便如果說比較鄉下的話它根本都沒有電池的交換站"},{"start":6685.436,"end":6700.922,"text":"那像這樣子的話 你們要怎麼去鼓勵 譬如說一些可能在公務單位的外面 譬如說在公所外面啊可以有這樣的一個電池的交換站 那也許對民眾會不會覺得說我這個也比較便利 那我也願意來換這個電動機車"},{"start":6704.984,"end":6722.456,"text":"時給環環報告我們在前瞻第四期的計畫馬上要推動的就是鼓勵各縣市包括鄉鎮去增設充電樁了有將近5點多億的一個預算所以未來再推動這一塊我相信效果就會更明顯了"},{"start":6723.277,"end":6751.449,"text":"對那的確這個infrastructure由基礎建設充電不變事實上民眾換成電動車的意願就不高那前瞻第四級環境部這一部分的這個工作就是來充實這個基礎的設施那現在已經有八個縣市提出來補助了啦那有會增加將近有400多處的公有廠藝的改善電力那經濟部這一部分就是其他"},{"start":6752.209,"end":6775.138,"text":"場域以及積極的補助所以我們跟經濟部是有一個搭配的做法好那今天經濟部也在這邊嘛我想請教一下就是說你們在鼓勵除了電動機車之外那電動巴士那電動巴士其實有很多我們是希望鼓勵是台產的電動巴士而不是從國外可能是從中國這邊中國製的然後進來台灣再組合"},{"start":6778.619,"end":6778.759,"text":"市長,市長,市長,"},{"start":6806.791,"end":6829.611,"text":"處理環境部這部分就是這個充電樁在公有地的地方偵測充電樁以及鼓勵各縣市開設更多利用電動公車來做營運營運增加多少人我們就會給他補助是鼓勵營運而不是在補助設備這個是我們精進的做法"},{"start":6830.311,"end":6846.79,"text":"其實我覺得現在在各縣市的這個電動巴士其實可以減少這個污染源我們也可以感受得到因為以往這個巴士如果在啟動的時候一定會有一股這個油煙這個油味所以我覺得說漸漸的這種味道是減少了所以我覺得這個是政府"},{"start":6851.415,"end":6876.616,"text":"的一個這個方向那我也希望就是說未來不論是電動機車也好或者是電動巴士應該是要去推動那如果說像現在電動機車不是那麼普及的話那是不是剛剛這個部長講的可能就是電池的這個交換站或充電樁那是鼓勵要去廣設應該是也要廣設才會有辦法去普及"},{"start":6877.698,"end":6878.48,"text":"故體再生難料"},{"start":6885.98,"end":6908.116,"text":"在前陣子我們看到就是說你們有關於這個就是在108年起你們有推動這個可燃的這個廢棄物轉製成固體再生燃料這個SRF那我覺得最近也有聽到就是說有的業者是假SRF的這個名義然後去行"},{"start":6909.136,"end":6921.745,"text":"實質的分化爐也看到50%的廠商可能沒有未依核准的計畫書去操作那我想請教部長像類似這樣子的話是"},{"start":6924.961,"end":6951.918,"text":"你們是你們整個源頭就有問題還是說這些業者他只是用這個名義然後實際上是真的他就是在做混化樓嗎給黃委員報告的確這一塊我們非常謝謝包括很多委員的關心以及媒體的報導那我們也深切去檢討那的確發現以往在包括審查"},{"start":6953.659,"end":6981.533,"text":"SIF生產製造的這一塊以往都是書面審查而已那當然審查的這個工作不只是做環境部有些是歸地方政府因為地方政府他有開設產業發展園區那他們在那個園區裡面設置那那一塊事實上是縣市政府的權責不過中央跟地方本來就一體的所以現在環境部已經積極的包括把生產SIF的規範"},{"start":6982.834,"end":6992.324,"text":"以及使用SRF的規範多做一些修正正在進行當中所以以前只有書審而已對 只有書審那你現在應該要實際到現場去看它是不是有這樣的技術啊沒錯 未來我們會有三個步驟除了書審接下來市營運也要看那接下來在營運當中還要"},{"start":7003.735,"end":7030.983,"text":"隨時去監督我們希望把它更具體的落實也來監測看看到底這些廠商有沒有按照既定的計劃書規範來做我相信未來是可以做很大的改善同時跟委員報告以往我們是把SRF只有一個標準原因是我們是以品質管制的角度來看歐洲他們是以產品的"},{"start":7031.403,"end":7031.703,"text":"中文字幕 沛"},{"start":7062.975,"end":7064.837,"text":"M2事件之後本席也有針對前環保署的"},{"start":7089.297,"end":7096.431,"text":"督察總隊李隊長的部分有提出要求我們要調查"},{"start":7097.657,"end":7122.92,"text":"調查報告完成了嗎?不但完成,也經過考機會、開會通過行政程序我已經批了,我們大概在最近應該會對外去公佈前天請任秘書長說院長也看過了都看過了所以就是說,那我們環境部什麼時候要公佈呢?"},{"start":7124.885,"end":7125.165,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7145.9,"end":7171.014,"text":"速公佈是好謝謝好那再來本席也關心這個就是針對山坡地的開發不當的開發那這個是82年通過的環評那現在他有變更大規模的變更只有被查雖然是新竹縣政府在處理的不過當年82年定稿是環保署前環保署"},{"start":7172.116,"end":7200.31,"text":"的這個環評作業那定稿但是到現在定稿本都沒有上網那請問什麼時候可以上網呢本席已經追了很久了這一點我請我們環保局的劉市長好 崔委員跟崔委員報告一下因為新竹市它有給我們的公文說第一個它手上有一份那另外一份是因為地方政府依照三該辦法裡面也有提到環境評估報告但是那個是83年我們現在在確認那個版本是什麼因為"},{"start":7200.99,"end":7227.263,"text":"因為年代比較久遠那我們先請他去確認因為我們從內政部他因為內政部的那個書件系統上沒有查到那個環評報告書可是當年在環保署審的應該環保署有嘛對我們現在就是在確認那個報告因為他還有提到83年那個版本所以我們現在確認請新竹縣政府確認那如果有好幾個版本我們也希望都能夠上對趕快確認我們把它核對一下那可不可以盡速我們盡快我們跟內政部就要談這些文件把它核對因為畢竟是30年前的檔案"},{"start":7228.003,"end":7238.867,"text":"本席也去地檢署告發了所以也希望公文書能夠盡速出現不要失蹤那麼久再來針對"},{"start":7245.029,"end":7263.02,"text":"部長 就是說我們也在杜拜一起關心這個氣候變遷COP28那現在我們到杜拜也看到這個化石燃料的使用整個杜拜幾乎每天都是PM2.5都超過150"},{"start":7265.541,"end":7280.433,"text":"那部長現在就是說我們國內我也看到我們的空屋的抵換那這個本行因為已經關心非常非常久了十幾年了那也看到環保署要去用環保金額離島減換救車換新要來讓新的開發案可以抵換"},{"start":7287.398,"end":7302.274,"text":"那我要請問部長這個有經過公正單位的這個抵換的機制就是怎麼換還有呢 譬如說臺北的這個移動污染源臺北的金爐抵換可以用在高雄的這個開發可以嗎我們這個都有審慎的去評估過了嗎 部長"},{"start":7307.547,"end":7332.374,"text":"這一點我可不可以請我們大區區的蔡市長來回覆一下比較細節的部分謝謝委員跟委員報告剛剛委員提到了跨縣市的這個部分是不可以抵換的一定是在同一個空品區所以如果是剛剛委員提到可是市長如果同一個空品區也有問題啊"},{"start":7334.294,"end":7346.059,"text":"市長也非常清楚比如說工業區一直在增量然後在偏鄉減量然後你沒有做流行病學調查或者是健康風險評估的時候你會讓工業區附近的民眾的風險會更高這個是很可怕的"},{"start":7352.142,"end":7363.09,"text":"不是嗎跟委員報告其實空氣是流來流去的所以整個我們現在研究的情形是整個空氣流來流去可是那個整個氣流如果都"},{"start":7367.293,"end":7385.269,"text":"都停滯不流動的時候那個污染量是很可怕的啊那你不能說流來流去好像就同一個空品區就可以去抵換這是不對的不是嗎跟委員報告這個其實是研究出來的情形在一個空品區裡面去做抵換"},{"start":7386.15,"end":7410.957,"text":"那這個部分會得到最好的一個減量跟改善的效果我不能夠去相信這個部分請部長好不好部長我要請你了解這個部分是蠻嚴重那是不是可以給本席這個確認是不是有公正單位去確認這樣子的底換是不會影響國人健康的那你們要施行是不是可以暫緩呢"},{"start":7412.918,"end":7438.01,"text":"我覺得這個是有必要因為兼顧到空氣品質的控制以及地區產業的一個發展但是國人健康比產業發展還要不如產業發展嗎就是說空氣是流通就如我們台灣每到冬季的時候空汙就特別嚴重可是那個是境外的啊"},{"start":7438.59,"end":7463.941,"text":"又不是我們自己產生的部長你講這一句就是表示你是外行空氣空氣冬天空氣不好是境外你這個真的就是你外行化了這個部分絕對不是你講的這樣我在這裡也不攻擊你我是說這個部分你要去底換你要拿出科學的、公正的確認不會危害國人健康"},{"start":7464.537,"end":7464.697,"text":"徐志榮、徐偉仁"},{"start":7491.124,"end":7495.065,"text":"先做一個宣告 今日無臨時提案 謝謝謝謝主席 拜託請薛部長有請薛部長部長好好 許文豪部長跟召委一行這個COP28大家辛苦了啦不會不會 應當的"},{"start":7516.616,"end":7530.815,"text":"我們剛落幕的這個COP28其中今年的會議主題就是目標就是要盤點巴黎協定要求的那個盤點是工業革命前的那個基準全球平均升溫控制在"},{"start":7532.643,"end":7551.958,"text":"兩度C以內控制氣溫上升幅度在1.5度C為上限部長您覺得我們的減碳速度有達到雖然我們不是肺炎國有達到我們巴黎協定全球判定的要求了嗎目前看起來事實上臺灣表現應該是相當的好了特別是包括"},{"start":7552.938,"end":7571.061,"text":"這次大會通過的一個結議裡面再生能源在2030年規劃希望能夠有三倍能源效益我大概也有看到您的說明我們都優移其他國家的9%我們好像都有20幾%所以你說的那個三倍不是什麼問題一樣的三倍在這個報紙裡面"},{"start":7580.319,"end":7604.271,"text":"當然不是結論啦早上講的就是倡議倡議這個核能新方向美陸等二十多國富裕全球核電產能在2050年提高三倍當然部長您也有回應了這個標題是說核廢料不解決核能就是假議題啦您講的三個那個"},{"start":7606.18,"end":7607.902,"text":"還有核能安全及全民共識"},{"start":7627.349,"end":7652.194,"text":"它這個三點理由它是寫安全性、核廢料處理以及核廢存放地點的共識所以我一直看這個第三點就是包含在第二點嘛您講的是比較正確啦還是要全民的共識我相信全民應該會有共識啦在那個前提之下"},{"start":7654.226,"end":7658.193,"text":"那不禁又讓我想到說我們現在政府的政策不是在講2025非核家園"},{"start":7662.735,"end":7690.263,"text":"給習委員報告齁2025即使我們沒有談到火候加減本身我們也就是沒有核能電廠了因為現在核二核三到2025本來也就是要Face out就是要服役了意思就是說到2025我們核能發電都歸零了大概歸零了因為現在你要再重新啟動也來不及了研議呢時間也過了研議的時間它有一定的程序所以已經也過了嘛"},{"start":7690.796,"end":7696.558,"text":"那重點來了,是不是要經濟部的長官回答?那到時候我們再電過嗎?本來我們的%數是天然氣50、火力30、力能20,早上聽了一下好像"},{"start":7715.208,"end":7741.58,"text":"才10%左右是不是哪一個再生能源沒有不會再生能源是今年就超過10%的對 那我們目標是要20%是不是我們到2026年2026年就可以達到20%就可以達到20%是的這樣可以完全期待那個核能發電廠核能現在統統停掉嗎核能去年8%今年大概剩5%"},{"start":7743.083,"end":7767,"text":"那它原來的狀況就是核一二三大概四百億度簡單的講2025年核能發電2025年的時候月底也不是說一月初啦簡單講是應該講年末啦2025年的年底核能發電通通要停掉然後我們台灣的電力不配不夠"},{"start":7768.086,"end":7787.133,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說河山的二號機除役的時間是2025年的五月不是年底啦是五月就會除役我是說最慢啦好那它的狀況是現在的狀況就是整個供電的狀況我們的估計就是都是足夠的我們先來討論最主要是怎麼樣再加速減碳"},{"start":7789.232,"end":7802.962,"text":"所以結論是說2025我說年底啦你說5月啦5月核酸就停掉了以後我們不擔心會切電我們供電是穩定的是的沒有問題是國人"},{"start":7804.909,"end":7825.66,"text":"民生用電、工業用電都可以確保那應該是算很好的消息但是為什麼那些國家他又要倡議說要到2050年提高分農發電三倍呢當然就是因為分農發電是比較"},{"start":7829.625,"end":7842.967,"text":"部長的前提之下,安全、火廢料處理等等,是恆隆發電一方面便宜,二方面可能碳排少"},{"start":7845.042,"end":7869.282,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是比較高的比例他們本身都有合工業就倡議倡議的國家本身他們有合工業這是第一件事第二個件事情就是這個事情的倡議其實是來自於就是要在資本市場取得資金的投注其實遇到了困難所以才會有這個倡議我想說這個是在那個會場上我們看到報導的現實狀況"},{"start":7870.723,"end":7888.877,"text":"那話再講回來雖然2025非核核電都停掉但是畢竟核能發電總比這個火力發電甚至於比天然氣發電更能夠減少碳排嘛"},{"start":7890.398,"end":7914.909,"text":"應該是這樣子講就是說每一個發電它的優劣狀況不一樣就是就全生命週期來講一方面便宜啦但我的意思是說在部長講的這個前提之下我們是不是還可能還有昏龍發電因為我們最終的目標還是要減少碳排嘛跟委員報告所以才會說"},{"start":7918.052,"end":7936.111,"text":"譬如我們現在都在講說保持開放的態度當然有關新恆隆技術發展什麼融如何我記得好像沈院長好像也這樣講也不是說2025以後就絕對台灣沒有恆隆發展好像他的態度也不是這樣的"},{"start":7937.679,"end":7963.457,"text":"給習委員報告實際上像美國現在就積極發展核融合因為現有的大部分在商場的大部分都是什麼時候成熟我們也還不知道還沒有成熟那我再跟委員報告一下美國原本在發展叫做小型模組反應器SMR事實上它在兩個禮拜以前也已經決定要把那個停掉因為成本要越高"},{"start":7964.338,"end":7991.457,"text":"而且發電的整個效力也跟他們預期的事實上是有落差最後我有點想要講的是說那個參與的國家都國土很寬廣是沒錯他們核廢料處理沒問題我知道好像以前有那個張憲毅的事件其實台電好像也有跟北韓有簽約過就核廢料的處理甚至於跟中國大陸也有太極市長你在搖頭是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":7994.741,"end":8015.2,"text":"好像文獻上我是查到資料是有啦至少有touch我的意思是說那個美國老大你就是那時候就是因為他反對嘛反對這樣子所以就不了了之嘛那我的意思是說像台積電用電量這麼的大那你美國國土又這麼的大"},{"start":8016.297,"end":8032.616,"text":"就是算我們要繼續核能發電的話我們核廢料沒有辦法處理的話你美國老大你又要我們台積電的這個電子產品我們萬一電不夠的話你總要幫我們處理這個核廢料我大概的意思是這樣子"},{"start":8040.261,"end":8059.748,"text":"這一題是這樣子就是高階核廢料最終處置這個事情跨國處理到現在國際公約是不同意這件事這是第一個第二個是你剛才提到就是說跟其他國家就是核廢料的減容處理那個事情應該是在上上屆"},{"start":8063.129,"end":8084.747,"text":"市長這樣子啦 總歸宜記啦2025非核加嚴 電力可以不用擔心 這個我們聽起來大家就很安心了啦最後一次的委員會 我也不希望副總統霍簡年等一下站起來啦 我也很對不起他啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8088.588,"end":8090.83,"text":"剛剛落幕的聯合國第28COP28"},{"start":8118.07,"end":8138.388,"text":"首度將健康納入討論議程根據世界衛生組織估計由於氣候變遷導致空汙、高溫以及疾病的傳播加劇每年有1.9億人的生命健康安全受到衝擊呼籲各國來加速加強醫療體系的"},{"start":8141.93,"end":8159.975,"text":"應對資源 資源就是說投入經費本次大會有124個國家簽署氣候與健康宣言政府還有開放銀行、慈善機構等等共同承諾投資投入10億美金來對抗氣候變遷帶來的健康危機"},{"start":8162.896,"end":8175.228,"text":"其中,全球基金提供3億美元,路克斐勒基金也打算投入1億美元,還有主辦國阿拉伯聯合大公國和數家慈善機構預計投入7.7億美元,用於因升溫惡化的熱帶疾病。"},{"start":8186.019,"end":8204.438,"text":"大公國內比較熱嘛所以他要投入這個升溫惡化帶來的熱帶疾病那我們回頭來檢視我們國內這幾年來台灣高溫report記錄隨之而來的熱傷害還有高溫疾病越來越多第一線醫師反映啊"},{"start":8205.659,"end":8232.507,"text":"氣候變遷導致疾病傳染途徑增加在原本是以前南部盛行的登革熱這個已逐漸到全臺地區而且出現了兩萬個這個病例有史以來最多的病例那臺灣民眾也深受空氣污染威脅我們必須強化公衛體系的資源所以首先請教環境部長"},{"start":8236.009,"end":8243.822,"text":"在這個明年開增碳費對不對那開增碳費使用在哪方面哪些面向上"},{"start":8245.089,"end":8268.403,"text":"氣候變遷因應法裏面有如列13項啦那我非常支持剛剛張偉英影片裏面有提到事實上利用碳費也來支持整個健康有嗎?我們的有嗎?國內的有支持健康公共衛生體系嗎?呃相關的一個 有沒有?對啊這些開端碳費之後有沒有?"},{"start":8269.94,"end":8288.114,"text":"議員會議員會議員"},{"start":8289.369,"end":8301.656,"text":"公委員報告目前是用於溫室氣體減量還有氣候變遷調適所以沒有公共衛生嘛醫療公共衛生這個碳費沒有放在那邊如果沒有就跟行政院爭取啊"},{"start":8303.772,"end":8328.261,"text":"這是沒有嘛對不對我們來爭取看看未來有沒有可能把它納入所以就是要爭取因為呢我覺得我們跟國際離得很遠並沒有把健康這個綠色健康醫療放進去所以呢碳費沒有放在醫療公共衛生上面所以請跟行政院爭取然後呢我再提醒本次大會呢"},{"start":8330.218,"end":8347.657,"text":"氣候與健康宣言這本次的大會那這個我提醒那另外一個我關心的面向就是醫療產業減碳的議題我們在去年3月公布的臺灣2050年淨零碳排路徑以及策略的總說明"},{"start":8349.339,"end":8374.196,"text":"剛剛部長講到其實裡面講到十二項關鍵戰略中絲毫未見綠色醫療所以八個組織部會中衛福部的角色是真空的十二個項目關鍵戰略沒有見到綠色醫療所以衛福部所以次長我今天今天只有我請衛福部出席對不對只有我邀請你上來所以我要問衛福部"},{"start":8374.776,"end":8395.664,"text":"那衛福部薛部長有提到說對於淨零碳排更直言說上一次我們問他的時候他說非超支債務的因素太多了你說綠色醫療你衛福部的角色說非超支債務的這個因素太多那站在醫療的綠色醫療關口上衛福部明年度只編列多少你知道嗎2000萬以內1965萬"},{"start":8398.425,"end":8426.425,"text":"所以這個六五萬的預算辦理什麼減碳教育所以在醫療還沒減碳轉型之前竟然好像代替了教育部在教育做減碳教育你是教育部在做減碳教育轉型所以請問次長在辦理減碳教育後你把一千九百六十五萬在辦減碳教育在教育之後"},{"start":8428.266,"end":8454.996,"text":"醫療產業在近鄰路上能夠得到什麼的協助呢?跟委員報告一下這裡面的教育其實應該是包含所謂的教育輔導教育什麼?教育以及輔導對啦!就是代替教育部的事情這教育嘛你並沒有爭取來做這個公共衛生的防治啊也不只是這樣綠色公共衛生也不只是這樣我們對於說醫院的時候他應該要怎麼做才對這裡面的檢探教育怎麼做對這對檢探的觀念"},{"start":8457.477,"end":8486.024,"text":"對他第一個觀念要改變那這樣子他第一個就是第一個他成本降低嘛那第二個的話那他本身的對這個裡面的檢探的確是環境是有貢獻的那第一個就是說這裡面的輔導要讓他知道那尤其是他醫院裡面他哪些地方是他可以著手的那這裡面是基本上是有做一些的盤點的事項那經由我們請人然後到醫院裡面進行這輔導的時候那這方面是可以做一些事情的那當然部長所提到的有很多的地方不見得"},{"start":8486.604,"end":8514.751,"text":"以下就能夠做得到的地方那當然是包含我們的上下游採購整個涉及到社會產業的這部分層面的部分那這部分的話需要我們另外在後面後續在 跨部會的對另外再需要其他不管還當然也包含跨部會那逐步的往這方面來推動所以我建議衛福部你知道在2030前子呢我們我們有多少預算嗎在在進行攤牌的預算9000億啊所以衛福部應該要去爭取啊做綠色醫療啊"},{"start":8516.231,"end":8533.999,"text":"對沒有錯那這部分的確是要讓不能不能像部長說的說這個不可非可操之的因素太多不能這樣講應該是我們要主動involve進去啊是循序漸進嘛我們能做的我們趕快先做我們不能做的那跨部會我們一起來看看是怎麼樣逐步的來推動"},{"start":8535.22,"end":8551.381,"text":"市長我提醒你為什麼因為醫療減碳方式太多了舉個例子我曾舉例子說噴一罐氣喘的噴劑呢這個碳排量大概等於汽車跑300公里做改成粉狀粉狀的話馬上降到4公里"},{"start":8552.462,"end":8575.823,"text":"馬上這個汽車跑四公里的這個排放量就夠所以呢這個醫療跟藥物的減量其實是非常是大有可為所以我們該花很多時間我們要來重視這個所以這個衛福部環保部呢都是在政策面向要給予醫療院所足夠的誘因誘因就是說告訴他們這樣做能夠帶來大家好"},{"start":8576.824,"end":8605.091,"text":"對不對 要自主管理說對不對一方面讓他知道那一方面如果這部分可以的話那盡量提供他有營往這方面來走那請問你將來這個醫院如何進行探排查探盤查我們會委託或委託相關的團體然後逐漸進去來協助他來做這方面的盤查那這個我知道你有提到這個近鄰探排的指引對不對但是沒有講到那個時間那個期程吧要多久內"},{"start":8606.111,"end":8634.086,"text":"我們先了解了之後再做排程因為這剛開始現在要再進行的時候先了解這樣排這個排程比較務實有沒有預計大概多久內有多少家醫院要達到探排查探盤查因為呢要不要從醫學中心開始啊等等我們先輔導10家然後看看他們裡面的情形數字大概是先從醫學中心開始嘛對不對對從比較大的這個醫院開始所以呢表示我們衛福部"},{"start":8635.126,"end":8656.028,"text":"有注意到齁那這個COP28在12月落幕嘛對不對12日落幕本次會議六大宣言中健康議題就佔了兩項氣候與健康宣言我講議題啦齁還有氣候健康資金象徵著健康在氣候變化討論中從過去的配角"},{"start":8656.889,"end":8675.437,"text":"要身為氣候行動的核心所以期許我們的政府可以從綠色醫療和極端氣候下的健康威脅兩個面向來著手建立對氣候變遷具有高度韌性的醫療衛生系統醫療韌性是什麼呢就因應對策"},{"start":8679.899,"end":8691.531,"text":"要建立高度的醫療韌性的對策來建立醫療衛生系統在為我們國內的今後創造更大的生活福祉這樣兩位部長、部長、次長對嗎?對!謝謝!請關心綠色醫療!謝謝!"},{"start":8711.693,"end":8735.829,"text":"下一位吳欣盈委員謝謝有請部長還有外交理事長 薛部長跟理事長部長還有次長好 吳昭偉好"},{"start":8739.474,"end":8760.106,"text":"謝謝兩位我剛剛其實剛聽到這個薛部長有報告就是說以專業務實跟有貢獻來報告這次COP的出國那可是我覺得我個人感覺是一個mixed picture然後我覺得是見仁見智啦比如說像這七年來台灣的這個碳用使用率增加那"},{"start":8762.467,"end":8781.316,"text":"自然天然氣增加以整個經濟成長或百分比不同角度看這個東西會有不同的解答不知道我的投影還沒出來我知道外交部這次有安排一些會議比如說"},{"start":8787.83,"end":8815.794,"text":"在就是說一些會議那像這裡頭的照片是跟外交部這邊立法院安排的那有一些是我自己私人的一些會議那像比如說在右上方這位跟Michael Sharon就是我FB有PO的這個綠色金融大使我本來是在藍區跟他見面可是因為臨時我們沒有辦法立法委員全部四位都沒辦法進去嘛所以我就是在外面的這個"},{"start":8816.474,"end":8836.334,"text":"公共空間跟他喝杯咖啡然後把我本來在藍區想跟他討論的事情在外面討論那他之前在聯合國從開發計畫的UNDP裡頭是擔任永續金融中心的高級顧問在2016年到2019年期間他也擔任G20的永續金融研究小組的主席"},{"start":8837.728,"end":8860.476,"text":"跟藍區對那同時就是說他也比如說在2016年的時候幫中國銀行在英國的證交所發他們第一個Green Bond他經驗非常的豐富那他有很多一些這個Private Public Partnership的一些經驗那然後接下來我有一個這個影片跟大家快速的來分享一下"},{"start":8869.189,"end":8895.025,"text":"一些建築物等等的大家可以看到就說像這COP的現場比較明顯的一些建築物等等的我們就被交代要非常低調要到大家回台北的時候才能PO比較辨識度高的COP地標在這邊反而用民間的企業或是基金會進來相對來講算榮譽"},{"start":8910.731,"end":8913.89,"text":"這是在阿布達比的部分可是其他那些都在COP"},{"start":8917.705,"end":8943.374,"text":"今天就看到了Fusion跟Fission的公司Fusion是台美合作的公司叫做Alpharine它是在Monterey, California跟在台北這邊合作的公司Fusion呢是唯一真的是Zero Waste的部分因為其實我現在講很多綠能的像Solar跟Wind的話它事實上還是有一些Treatment Problems這個部分但還是在研究當中能不能真的是"},{"start":8944.274,"end":8969.946,"text":"大幅的量產還需要一段時間各個現場的車子都是電動車不同的國家也有他們一些各國管那裡頭還有分藍區跟綠區藍區的話就是各國領袖跟智庫的人員可以參加一般在做一些key decision maker綠區的話呢就是很多的一些新創跟綠能相關的產業或是一些綠色金融很好的一些典範呢也在這邊跟大家可以分享"},{"start":8972.907,"end":8988.816,"text":"所以我想展示就是說其實在台灣的這個外交困境當中呢是非常艱難的然後想要解釋下一頁William麻煩你就是說其實事實上呢我其實有被邀請兩場在所謂的Parliamentary Pavilion就是週一"},{"start":8989.406,"end":9005.221,"text":"上午的時候跟週二下午的時候都有作為與談人可是因為就是沒有最後拿到藍區的這個證件呢我也沒有辦法進去就相當的可惜那之後呢其實星期四的時候因為我們去COP那COP是星期四剛好休會"},{"start":9006.002,"end":9026.113,"text":"所以我就自己跑跨了邊界去了阿布達比然後這時候也想跟兩位分享就是說其實我是被邀請也是去做與談人那這次有辦法進去因為我是用民間的名義進去的這是國際智庫米爾肯研究院然後中間這位是Mike Milken本人"},{"start":9028.794,"end":9041.54,"text":"第五屆中東及非洲國家開放會關心未來再生能源用金融帶動產業轉型Milken專注四個主軸教育、健康、新創企業、金融"},{"start":9049.455,"end":9068.793,"text":"同時我要提到其實這次過去阿布達比邊界的時候你也發現到阿布達比現在是有全世界最大的太陽能板的面積它是跟中國做合作的這也代表石油的國家它可以重新再做能源轉型"},{"start":9071.235,"end":9091.474,"text":"同時它現在空間大、太陽多、風也多它其實要整個做這個轉型是非常有利基點的那這也呼應就是說其實我覺得臺灣必須要勇敢面對就是說如果真的我們要變成一個能源堅韌的國家的話我們其實選擇是不多的因為我們是一個小島國"},{"start":9092.455,"end":9116.403,"text":"然後我們也沒有很多的天然的資源不像中東的話連這次我們私下跟一些歐洲的國家的議員交流的話像盧森堡他們覺得他們不支持核能可是他們是跟邊界的比利時買核能啊對不對那這些國家邊界他們雖然不支持核能不簽署這些合約不代表說他們沒有在用核能的電"},{"start":9116.943,"end":9133.442,"text":"可是臺灣就是一個鎖國我們要在這個情況之下怎麼樣去突破這個困境我覺得不考慮啟動核能的話是不務實的那再來就是想要分享就是說下一位麻煩William"},{"start":9134.492,"end":9148.872,"text":"就是說我們實際上面對外交的這個困境那這個是我從這個CSIS一個智庫它2020年的報告後面的這個截圖就是這列出所有現在臺灣撤出聯合國之後所有的"},{"start":9149.192,"end":9151.693,"text":"全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及全體委員會及"},{"start":9175.2,"end":9202.442,"text":"國家人口250萬人是全世界的0.3人口的面積而已所以是台灣在這個情況之下我們要什麼樣的立場不只是用政府機關因為這個原因這次我們四個委員都沒有辦法進藍區的場部長進你也沒辦法進去嘛 對不對那我們要怎麼樣能發揮其他我看到這些NGO的一些membership為什麼我突然講到這個Asian Development Bank就是亞洲開發銀行呢就接下來想要分享就是說"},{"start":9203.243,"end":9220.164,"text":"我個人的看法是如果今天台灣必須要走到淨零碳排的話我們的金融產業必須要跟國際接軌然後呢我們的所有的官方的金融機構必須官民一把尺才能讓我們跟國際接軌同時能淨零碳排淨零轉型"},{"start":9220.584,"end":9246.175,"text":"我們的金融產業必須要走到國際化那你可以看就是說這次像COP有這個所謂的Loss and Damage Fund那這Loss and Damage Fund裡頭呢其實就是所謂的對我而言是一個叫做氣候二軌的這個氣候金融的二軌外交那譬如說這個像譬如說氣候金融投資主權基金等等的這都是可以互相彼此投資的不然您先領洗我知道對去看省預算好謝謝對那"},{"start":9249.634,"end":9269.691,"text":"比如說這次我有跟這個諾魯諾魯我們一個邦交國做交流諾魯他的國家還比帛琉更小我問他說你們現在的這個淨零的方向是如何你們現在能源用的怎麼樣他說他們是用Diesel就用柴油為主他說我們只要裝兩個區塊我們島上只要裝兩個區塊的太陽能板我馬上50%就可以go clean那我說那請問一下你的這個"},{"start":9277.522,"end":9292.351,"text":"你這個solar panel誰幫你裝他說中國幫他裝的然後同時他說最近要蓋個碼頭是中國幫他做的那我說欸納魯你不是我們台灣的邦交國嗎那你是邦交國為什麼這個案子是給這個中國做他說中國就是Asian Development Bank去做這個談判的"},{"start":9293.852,"end":9315.874,"text":"所以我的意思就是說其實透過這個ADB亞洲開發銀行這是我們台灣是Full Membership的我們在這一場這樣這部分打輸的話我覺得是相當的可惜的而且要提到說您看您外交部現在這個報告上面也有講就是說你們外交部的報告對於COP說有充分發揮外交的效益我會覺得是說以提供你們參考"},{"start":9316.735,"end":9336.866,"text":"像很多國家澳洲、西班牙、意大利跟加拿大他們的MOFA跟MOE是併在一起的他們的名字叫做Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade我真的非常的覺得是個非常重要的議題所以可以呼應說我們的外交跟經濟是不是可以一起並肩作戰而這樣子的話才不會讓我們的這個邦交國像納魯"},{"start":9338.507,"end":9342.71,"text":"此外,其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及其中一屆"},{"start":9357.522,"end":9371.796,"text":"中國廠商為什麼會得標?事實上這邊也講到Kathy其實中國廠商他在全世界各地都用低價的方式去競標那他背後有大量的政府或其他的補貼所以很多的國家都在抱怨說這些投標機制可能要做修改"},{"start":9372.496,"end":9394.022,"text":"只是跟委員補充,ATB台灣當然會非常積極的運用我們是一個Full Membership的身份來充分的發揮我們也用很多機制來鼓勵我們的業者去參加ATB的標案那只是說在剛才您提到這個特定的標案上面,最終是中國的企業得標ATB是甲方,他來招標,然後得標的企業是中國,不是中國在協助農業"},{"start":9395.942,"end":9409.35,"text":"外交部跟行政單位是講說要作戰的時候尤其我們這麼多委員出現我們應該是走大門走正路的我知道我們台灣的外交處境是非常有困境的這次我們這樣子去"},{"start":9411.451,"end":9432.402,"text":"我覺得我很對不起納稅人我覺得我沒有發揮到我們該發揮到的效應如果真的要做立院的外交的話我們等立法院的院長請這些國際的人員來就好了舉例講好幾個我遇到這些跟我們後來吃飯、找飯的人他們的牌子都寫著Party Overflow我還在玩牌子上也寫著Party Overflow這是什麼意思"},{"start":9432.822,"end":9453.489,"text":"PARTY不是開PARTY的PARTY那PARTY是一個團體的意思PARTY OVERFLOW那些委員告訴我是說是不能發言的委員才跟我們來吃早飯在飯店外面跟我們吃早飯的報告委員這個情況在COP28以前一直存在我們會持續的跟立法院一起來努力這一次有一些特殊狀況我相信委員很清楚有FULL MEMBERSHIP剛剛那些組織我們應該積極的把相關的窗口不管是經濟部財政部或什麼的相關剛剛那些"},{"start":9460.692,"end":9483.665,"text":"全體組織的做上對口來發揮真正的功能然後一些比較我們不是正式的會員的就要走正的路像這次這些NPO全部都是簽認騰一個中國的那我們用這些政見精確化我們立法院在國會外交台協助一起推動我們當然希望所有人都可以走大門走正路"},{"start":9484.365,"end":9503.133,"text":"當時我在現場的時候,我們拿到我們之前你給我們的證件要進去的時候,當場就有聯合國人在我現場跟我講,我聽到了,就跟你們講說,you betrayed my trust, this is not how it's supposed to be, you shouldn't be here"},{"start":9503.633,"end":9523.148,"text":"委員其實在委員很清楚您出發前我們兩次有跟您溝通今年情況比較特殊一點那我相信您也知道特殊的地方是什麼地方沒有什麼特殊的地方你們要的方式就是說你們要的話就是要用正當的方式跟國際上做交流否則這樣你會讓所有想幫助我們都很難做的事情謝謝你"},{"start":9524.429,"end":9538.577,"text":"然後最後不好意思我要講的最後一頁就是不好意思主席就是那個關於這個這個是環境部的部分環境部的話就是說我想要想要追就是說因為不好意思我之前跟部長是追過就是這個10年的這個環境部的這個途徑藍圖"},{"start":9542.799,"end":9554.511,"text":"因為其實我之前多次也呼籲就是說碳費、碳稅、碳底換的交易、碳交放的平台這四種到底要陸續怎麼樣有些配套措施因為這不只是對產業還有這個臺灣這個金融接軌金融這個"},{"start":9559.095,"end":9579.435,"text":"碳排金融接軌的國際性是非常重要的因為很多產業業界都不了解就是說碳權到底是要不要買然後要買多少然後未來這東西可能成為金融商品然後有沒有一些其他碳定價的機制在那產業要轉型的話是需要很多年的時間不能一次馬上到位"},{"start":9579.795,"end":9594.161,"text":"那如果整個架構沒有提出來的話這樣子產業很難做一些中長期的規劃所以想了解說你們什麼時候可以做出一個10年的路徑圖上次我跟部長問過那看看市長今天有什麼樣的想法可以給我承諾嗎?什麼時候可以做出來?"},{"start":9597.501,"end":9615.472,"text":"跟委員報告我們之前這個有跟也是委員有提到說我們應該可以在一個三個月內在三個月內因為最主要還是要看政府這一段我們要做中長期的規劃我們先在目前是先以碳價就是這個收碳費為主"},{"start":9616.328,"end":9629.735,"text":"那這個三個月內我們做的規劃確實會依委員的指示所以你是說只有三個月能做探費沒有沒有我說三個月內我們會把十年的路徑圖跟委員做報告就是整體的好這要時間出來謝謝謝謝吳委員下一位陳寅委員"},{"start":9650.903,"end":9652.544,"text":"因為部長已經離開那我就先請這個氣候變遷署的蔡署長"},{"start":9675.168,"end":9699.734,"text":"有請署長委員好署長好這次的第28屆全球的氣候變遷高峰會那環境部有參加這是這次的參加有是有透過這個非政府組織的幫忙嗎是跟委員報告我們向來在參與COP相關的會議都是以"},{"start":9700.174,"end":9714.227,"text":"我們國內的非政府組織也就是NGO的名義來參加那我相信你們這次也有收集不少這個相關的資料回來是那這次的會場是不是區分"},{"start":9715.628,"end":9739.286,"text":"剛剛也有委員提到了這個區分了這個藍區跟綠區嘛那我想請教一下署長綠區在官方文宣上是不是有強調就是要開放給原住民團體跟一般民間組織那希望可以促進原住民團體跟政府的對話是 跟委員報告在主辦國它在會場上面它分為藍區跟綠區最主要藍區是"},{"start":9741.587,"end":9756.535,"text":"需要有這個大費許可的報名的證件才能進去那立區它通常就會開放給沒有持有這個報名證件但是可以當地這個去登記啦或者是這樣子一個方式去進去參觀"},{"start":9758.39,"end":9776.521,"text":"好 那個署長你接下來可不可以回答一下為什麼因為我剛剛有提到但是你在附送回答的時候沒有特別再提因為我剛剛有強調就是說綠區在官方文宣上就是有要開放給原住民團體"},{"start":9778.363,"end":9789.956,"text":"因為我是原住民的立法委員所以我會特別關注這個部分那我想請教署長你可不可以回答就是以你的理解為什麼要特別針對原住民團體來開放呢"},{"start":9792.675,"end":9806.966,"text":"這個部分的話我沒有特別去了解說但是因為在藍區事實上也有周邊會議我沒有要關心藍區的部分我在這邊要跟你討論綠區特別開放給原住民團體這個部分"},{"start":9808.587,"end":9836.614,"text":"我想因為其實氣候公約他非常重視就是跟原住民還有跟這個相關的團體的一些對話跟溝通所以主辦國他或許有這個規劃但這個部分確實我沒有因為我今年沒有到現場去參加我想這個有沒有到現場應該是沒有關係那我覺得其實在整個氣候變遷下是這樣子如果署長不清楚也沒關係"},{"start":9837.634,"end":9857.535,"text":"那我今天把這樣的觀念特別在這邊跟署長、讓署長了解一下那也在座的各位也要特別的注意一下就是一個很重要的原因在氣候變遷下最先衝擊的族群任何國家的政府其實都很清楚的就是"},{"start":9858.215,"end":9884.905,"text":"大自然環境最密切的族群其實就是原住民族我們因為在這個環境迫害之下整個原住民族的生存權、發展權甚至這個土地自然資源的權利都是被嚴重傷害的所以這個部分特別在這邊提出來讓署長瞭解因為"},{"start":9886.092,"end":9908.795,"text":"您坐在一個非常重要的位置就是氣候變遷署你是署長所以這一點我希望從現在開始可以特別注意因為未來這個部分到時候我想時間再久一點你會更清楚知道原住民在這整個氣候變遷的一個扮演的角色"},{"start":9909.355,"end":9910.016,"text":"主要主要主要主要主要"},{"start":9917.965,"end":9940.741,"text":"在這個1992年的巴西里約召開的這個里約環境跟發展宣言宣言的部分全部27項有規範各國政府環境權利與責任的基本原則其中的第22項揭示了原住民族的傳統習慣與智慧在環境的永續發展上扮演關鍵的角色因此在各國的政府"},{"start":9941.161,"end":9956.11,"text":"都是要肯定並且支持援助民族參與氣候變遷衝擊一下環境的保護、管理跟監測我想這個概念很重要那身為氣候變遷署的署長要請您特別了解"},{"start":9958.491,"end":9972.102,"text":"這個概念所以我接下來我要請問署長在未來在您帶領的這個氣候變遷署各項措施的計劃是不是應該根據地球憲章的基本原則"},{"start":9972.982,"end":10000.123,"text":"鼓勵並支持援助民族運用我們的智慧與生活習慣來協助你們落實淨零排碳的工作請問署長你支不支持這樣子的一個方向是 完全支持好 謝謝署長那我接下來要請教就是說那我可不可以請署長你們的這個氣候變遷署可以進一步的加以規劃那針對我剛剛提的這些加以規劃可以嗎"},{"start":10000.803,"end":10010.911,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在今年立法院三讀通過氣候變遷因應法也很清楚的把原住民就是我們在擬定氣候變遷各項政策的時候必須要將原住民的相關的跟氣候變遷不管是在減緩跟調適都要納入好那所以你們開始規劃了嗎我們現在在進行的包括就是國家氣候變遷行動綱領"},{"start":10024.762,"end":10040.196,"text":"還有接下來再進行調試計畫都會進行都會納入對都會納入那請問就是你有很你有很認真的把這個原住民族的這個部分你怎麼樣已經加入了這樣子的規劃了嗎"},{"start":10042.237,"end":10064.046,"text":"這個會隨著每一項計畫在實施就是規劃跟提出的期程的時候那我們會開始跟包括跟原住民主管機關還有相關的團體那包括這個最重要就是我們立法院各相關的委員這邊我們都會開始來進行討論因為我也沒有接到你們任何的邀約啦所以看起來是還沒有開始"},{"start":10066.076,"end":10091.358,"text":"對 就跟委託沒有關係那我剛剛講這個規劃你需要多少時間來規劃我們現在因為正在規劃是下一期的國家氣候變遷的就是階段管制目標還有這個行政計畫這個部分我們會把它納入那另外的話就是在進行這個氣候變遷調適的相關的作業這個是明年會開始啟動那這部分我們也會進行"},{"start":10092.299,"end":10108.833,"text":"明年開始啟動那等一下那所以我再問你你還是沒有回答我問題你需要多少時間來規劃好原住民相關的這個特別是原住民相關的這個部分你需要多少時間規劃那跟我們報告我們在至少三個月內我們先就這些計劃跟擬定的時候那需要進行跟這個溝通的一些原則我們先請問你這三個月要跟誰溝通我們先跟這個先你把我們先盤點"},{"start":10121.263,"end":10123.666,"text":"依照《氣候變遷因應法》需要進行推動我剛剛說明的"},{"start":10126.011,"end":10149.016,"text":"這些方案、計劃或者是措施先做一個盤點然後接下來就是需要跟原住民相關團體的這個進行跟進行方式我們來進行討論那剛剛你有特別點名到就是要跟各位原住民的這個立法委員來溝通那我也想要請教你是要跟這一屆的立委溝通還是跟下一屆的原住民立委溝通我跟委員報告我們現在是三個月我們先進行要先盤點有哪一些事項"},{"start":10154.662,"end":10180.951,"text":"有一些方案措施那需要來提的我們先三個月內先盤點出來那接下來才進一步去提說需要溝通的對象那所以所以你後面才要盤點溝通的對象所以你又說你要先跟原住民的立法委員溝通我真的是有點聽不太懂就是說你的意思是其實剩下這個時間你也沒有要跟我們溝通的意思"},{"start":10181.773,"end":10205.92,"text":"我想這個都是持續都會再溝通那我們現在因為剛剛委員關心我們氣候法裡面因為會包括的就是減緩跟調適的這些方案跟計劃那我們先盤點出來有哪一些到底現在接下來有哪一些所以你說三個月就是很明顯其實這一屆的原住民立委你是根本不需要溝通的其實跟委員報告因為我們的任期就到1月"},{"start":10208.201,"end":10226.684,"text":"還沒有你的三個月我們裡面的成員可能不一定是一樣但是我很清楚告訴你我會繼續在這邊其實我們在這段期間內也是一直有跟委員包括我們在進行氣候法的修法當時的在訂定的時候也都持續有在做溝通"},{"start":10228.171,"end":10252.246,"text":"我是沒有太強烈的感覺就是因為我很擔心你溝通的對象不對了啦好那至少我剛剛點出了原住民的這一塊看起來署長從第一個回答並沒有很有概念所以我在這邊我鼓勵你好好去研究一下好那再不然"},{"start":10253.342,"end":10281.826,"text":"我們即便現在在忙選舉但是我想我們的任期在這邊這個做一天和尚敲一天鐘嘛辦公室還是都有在運作啊是我們會積極的對啊你總不會等說要確認我在個我們1月13號確定我有選上之後才要趕快來溝通才要開始慢慢規劃吧是跟我們這段期間其實一直都有跟各個委員在做溝通是有嗎"},{"start":10284.244,"end":10307.116,"text":"我們辦公室有嗎這個我們會改善有嗎對啊你不要亂講話啊就是各個委員我們辦公室就是沒有所以我今天特別提出來所以要請署長特別注意嘛對啊那你要三個月我很擔心啊那你如果要溝通其實你從現在就可以常常來溝通啊我八台都開著是謝謝"},{"start":10307.996,"end":10329.429,"text":"對啊所以我最後再請教一下世界銀行去年指出全球已經有68個國家或區域區域已經有這個碳定價了那今年會有多少國家有定價這個都是要依照那個世界銀行跟各國去做的這個趨勢那在今年初的報告是73個國家或地區"},{"start":10331.107,"end":10353.037,"text":"今年會有73個國家跟地區我想是這樣我們台灣的這個碳交易平台的相關法則不知道現在是進度怎麼樣那是不是有如你們的預期那我比較好奇的就是說你什麼時候來完成訂定這樣子"},{"start":10354.418,"end":10368.708,"text":"我們現在的時程是預計就是在最近會先把這個碳費徵收的相關的規劃來做一個預告那明年的話明年1月會開始就是針對費率的部分會進行這個由費率審議會來做討論"},{"start":10372.079,"end":10396.726,"text":"那所以什麼時候完成?你有預估的時間嗎?我們現在很清楚就是明年的碳排放都會被計到這個碳費徵收的範圍也就是說明年開始這個碳費徵收就會上路那你打算一段大概訂多少錢?這個要由明年的碳費的費率審議會來做討論跟決定好所以那個我剛剛前面問的就是說你預估何時完成訂定目前你們是?"},{"start":10397.762,"end":10423.282,"text":"沒有確確預期的時間會在明年的第一季把包括這是碳費的徵收辦法還有費率審議會這個這個費率的部分來做明年第一季大概就會做確定好那這樣子我我只是提醒吼我們這個各國的經驗其實看起來應該都是越早實施好那整個挑戰就會越小所以我在這邊特別提醒署長好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":10431.567,"end":10438.575,"text":"謝謝本日會議詢答全部結束委員王婉玉、賴會員楊耀會題書面質詢列入記錄還有一位莊敬成委員書面質詢列入記錄"},{"start":10447.503,"end":10475.097,"text":"刊登公報現在做以下決議報告以及詢答完畢委員質詢未答覆或是補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內以書面答覆委員另有邀期限者從其鎖定本次會議議事錄授權由主席核定後確定本次會議到此結束散會"},{"start":10477.892,"end":10478.073,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10511.798,"end":10527.8,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆全體委員會第12屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發展基金會第13屆聯合國氣候變遷大會及財團法人國際合作發"}]}},{"id":"15353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15353","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a05f8a018c8dfe1c04cd7447017296271146d53a332764a53534fcf55075ba2b485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案」（公務預算部分））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-13","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:00:03+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121360","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-13T17:43:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":31377,"委員發言時間":"09:00:03 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並委員會決議辦理 有沒有意見沒有意見通過第二案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第三案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第四案 改組決議 沒有意見通過第五案 並委員會決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":2495.526,"end":2505.516,"text":"第六案 改組結議 沒人見通過第七案 改組結議 沒人見通過第八案 框刪科目 我們就不討論第九案"},{"start":2514.957,"end":2522.501,"text":"第十案 改組決議沒有意見通過第十一案 通商第十二案 秘魯約決議辦理沒有意見通過第十三案 檢列150萬年"},{"start":2541.605,"end":2555.852,"text":"請部長因為這個涉及到本部和外管的那個資訊的安全的處理那就建請免於檢列是不是這個是什麼測案好不好"},{"start":2557.566,"end":2572.598,"text":"主結議改組結議十三案改組結議沒有意見通過十四案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十五案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十六案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過十七案併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":2577.682,"end":2577.882,"text":"現在就看18案"},{"start":2602.469,"end":2604.892,"text":"改組決議19案改組決議20案凍結100萬元20案改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":2628.347,"end":2652.996,"text":"委員長這個我講一下好嗎就是說我們知道之前這個中美洲銀行有弊案發生那民間團體也公開去揭露這個事情所以實地黨團這邊是希望我們在研議用現有的台灣獎學金制度來"},{"start":2654.383,"end":2655.664,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":2672.312,"end":2699.543,"text":"二十三案改組結議沒有一件通過二十四案改組結議沒有一件通過二十五案並委員會結議辦理沒有一件通過二十六案改組結議沒有一件通過二十七、二十八都是通山那就二十九案並委員會結議辦理沒有一件通過三十案通山三十一案"},{"start":2701.089,"end":2702.013,"text":"委員會啦 委員會已經動200了"},{"start":2708.794,"end":2732.633,"text":"請部長說明一下好不好請部長說明一下好不好好 說明一下好 院長 各位委員因為那個涉及到故邦的這個事情我們每年都需要跟這些友邦去跟他們簽約那如果說有凍結的話可能會有自愛難行的這個部分所以建議就併委員會決議的那委員會決議是多少四百五"},{"start":2739.333,"end":2765.127,"text":"委員會動結450萬好那31案就併委員結辦理32案也併委員結辦理好不好好33案也併委員結辦理好34案也併委員結辦理好35案改組決議那沒有意見通過好報告部長36案通三35案怎樣行政單位有哪一個案35案就"},{"start":2766.361,"end":2771.584,"text":"改組決議跟院長報告一下有關於34案我們已經跟邱委員的辦公室已經做過溝通了所以這個就建議撤案第三十四案改組決議好不好改組決議好 改組決議好冷人在這裡欸應委員 這一半你對他都沒有傷過"},{"start":2795.794,"end":2796.094,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":2822.276,"end":2849.113,"text":"這個都通過了36案通山到這裡就稍微休息一下看36案主決議吧通山公務通山公務不是主決議我們要改主決議要改主決議通山再加一個主決議沒有啊我們就把這一案改成主決議你覺得是屬於通山的公務等一下他會有刪除的對啊我們在刪除前就改主決議"},{"start":2851.498,"end":2872.722,"text":"37案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過38案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過39案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過40案主決議,文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":2877.785,"end":2878.506,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2904.241,"end":2918.67,"text":"46案主決議﹖沒有意見就照案通過47案測案48案主決議﹖沒有意見就照案通過48案等一下48我們委員會已經有討論過 看是不是能夠併合委員會決議處理48案併合委員會等一下 剛才不是說通過嗎"},{"start":2932.227,"end":2938.57,"text":"委員會決議是什麼委員會決議是什麼我們那是主決議耶主決議怎麼會併委員會 事發案是主決議委員會決議是請我們提供書面報告 那我們正在轉移中書面報告 三個月期書面報告"},{"start":2959.497,"end":2985.507,"text":"那我們就是通過就好了啊就兩個議案啊好啦好啦好啦好就這樣齁好來49案主決議文字調整沒有意見等一下有文字修正文字修正對院長你有看到嗎文字修正49案他沒有給你嗎好49案主決議有文字修正剛剛才調的有修正通過"},{"start":2988.848,"end":2989.328,"text":"51案 主決議51案 主決議"},{"start":3016.741,"end":3035.81,"text":"主席測案好了,兩個留一個就好了五十五十一留一個就好了主決議,沒有建議測案通過沒有沒有,我們建議測案因為最主要就是說那個以色列在我們駐以色列代表處在協助我們國人離開這個其實是非常有效率啦所以我們建議測案不是不是,我們其實是希望說"},{"start":3036.87,"end":3037.01,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3060.814,"end":3064.097,"text":"謝偉我這樣講好不好前面那個文字齁不是寫理想文這主要是後面要求外交部那這樣就好了"},{"start":3086.681,"end":3095.284,"text":"好,就是原要求外交部原要求,前面兩行消掉書面報告這兩個案子其實是一樣的?可以嗎?兩個案子要並一案就好了,其實書面報告就好了可以嗎?"},{"start":3101.601,"end":3103.883,"text":"五十一案也不是很像"},{"start":3131.567,"end":3137.308,"text":"五十案要保留五十案主決議就文字修正修正通過啦好不好來再看一下"},{"start":3161.732,"end":3161.832,"text":"主決議主決議"},{"start":3191.277,"end":3194.859,"text":"五十三案改組決議 每日間通過 五十四案屬於通商"},{"start":3220.596,"end":3243.546,"text":"阿不然我們這個就討論討論這個通案啦好 謝謝部長10點50要休息到齊不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以不可以"},{"start":3251.601,"end":3259.227,"text":"市長要說通山,不然你要十點五十給我休息不要休息"},{"start":3346.102,"end":3346.563,"text":"各位先進"},{"start":3368.211,"end":3368.652,"text":"這很恐怖"},{"start":3470.011,"end":3499.398,"text":"好那各位先進我們就繼續開會現在要進行國防部主管的部分預算主管部分那我現在介紹一下列席的首長介紹國防部部長邱國正先生接下來就請大家看我們的五十五案"},{"start":3501.533,"end":3518.142,"text":"那改組協議有沒有意見?好,沒有意見通過56案改組協議沒有意見通過57案改組協議沒有意見通過57案有沒有意見?改動百分之一喔?那個是商量一下,改組協議好了"},{"start":3519.417,"end":3519.637,"text":"委員會動五千萬"},{"start":3547.785,"end":3557.439,"text":"五十七案就凍結百分之一,沒有見通過五十八案通三,不處理五十九案、六十案都通三,不處理"},{"start":3558.24,"end":3561.282,"text":"五十九還沒有挑過五十九還沒有挑過"},{"start":3574.91,"end":3598.095,"text":"五八五九六十都十一五三不是不是我們還是要說明一下我們是不是請部長說明一下就是我們的國防安全研究院為什麼他是拿國防部的預算但是他卻在二月的時候接受媒體的專訪那時候他就可以預測說一定哪一個總統候選人一定會贏這是什麼樣子的"},{"start":3602.135,"end":3623.474,"text":"他這個報告,他個人訪問以後,他個人表達,但我們這個事情已經跟國防院、國防院有表達過,不疑。國防院的董事長,以前我們老的長官,他也跟我講很抱歉,以後不會有這種類案發生。這不代表國防院,他真的是個人,特別跟委員報告。"},{"start":3624.335,"end":3638.842,"text":"他是在國防安全研究院的會議嗎?在媒體在政任節目的時候他自己就表達的這一點我們也真的跟國防院一直在表達在不疑"},{"start":3640.101,"end":3664.337,"text":"因為他是代表國防研究安全研究院的所長那他在外面發表也就是代表他這個身份去發表那這之後他還有再發表相關的言論嗎?後面就沒有了,我們後面最起碼我們都要克盡我們職責跟他勸導委員做說明是吧?好謝謝委員"},{"start":3670.265,"end":3670.445,"text":"611案凍結10萬年,並委員會結議辦理61"},{"start":3694.375,"end":3698.078,"text":"並委員結辦理好 同樣的公務嘛好 沒問題就通過63案並委員結辦理那沒問題就通過"},{"start":3703.797,"end":3726.186,"text":"66組結議"},{"start":3727.639,"end":3745.291,"text":"呃 66案原本有跟委員辦公室討論過 原本是統一策案 現在委員好像有一些的指導主決議文字調整是吧 趕快調整好吧 那我們做這個文字調整 好來主決議了66案 本來就是主決議嘛 66案主決議 文字調整了 那民運監視修正通過67案主決議 議題案辦理 好 民運監視照案通過"},{"start":3756.16,"end":3778.437,"text":"68案主決議68案保留69案主決議主決議本部配合辦理但是建議就是說原來是一個月改成三個月提出書面報告我再重新宣布一下就是說如果有碰到一個月兩個月"},{"start":3779.905,"end":3781.686,"text":"69案就主決議文書修正修正通過"},{"start":3802.752,"end":3827.707,"text":"70案主決議 文字修正 文字修正 那沒有意見就修正通過71案主決議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過72案主決議 並委員會決議辦理 有沒有意見 沒有意見通過73案主決議 有沒有意見 一體案辦理 照案通過74案主決議 我們建議文字做修正"},{"start":3829.502,"end":3845.459,"text":"七十四案主決議 文字做修正 沒意見就修正通過七十五案主決議議題案辦理好 院長講一分補充講一分鐘啦就是說這個案基本上我跟裴同游院長去美國國會訪問啦齁"},{"start":3847.361,"end":3849.522,"text":"原來美國的國會議員有這麼多位美軍出身﹖戰鬥機飛行員﹖許多的將領﹖包括中階﹖基層的軍人"},{"start":3869.588,"end":3885.719,"text":"有些國會議員的門口就會放說這些照片是美軍這幾年來在全球各地為國犧牲的軍人也就是說他的這個"},{"start":3887.241,"end":3906.723,"text":"軍人在美國的reportation非常高部長也知道這個狀況所以我基本上會希望說光部針對如何提升我國國軍的榮耀跟社會上的地位reportation能夠有一些努力"},{"start":3908.004,"end":3935.703,"text":"就是說一個社群一個國家如果說對於這些為國家犧牲奉獻的人沒有一個基本的敬意的話那這個共同體是很難這個有一個團結感的所以就這部分尤其是說美國的許多的這個從軍的人到最後離開這個軍隊之後他事實上在政界跟商界也獲得許多的敬重"},{"start":3936.583,"end":3960.649,"text":"尤其是說軍人的這種堅毅果斷紀律的這個形象應該是可以這個深植人心的也希望廣部能夠注意這個部分這樣我們隨時任何活動都把這些加進去平常也做宣導強調是 謝謝委員好 那75案主決議我們就照樣通過"},{"start":3964.063,"end":3985.821,"text":"七十六案主決議七十六案是有關於三軍儀隊撤出中正紀念堂的提案昨天有討論這個案子是保留建議併案保留七十六案保留院長補充講一句話因為我覺得國防部其實很重要一個部分就是說你的任務就是保家衛國"},{"start":3987.142,"end":3987.202,"text":"主席"},{"start":4005.769,"end":4031.254,"text":"放在這個地方做這個中正紀念堂然後三軍一隊這個對光部是好的因為這裡反而是捲入了一個台灣的歷史上非常有爭議性的issue所以在這個基礎之上真的不管是文化部或光部尤其是過去事實上在陳水扁總統執政的時候光部的三軍一隊事實上是有撤離這個中正紀念堂的"},{"start":4031.414,"end":4032.074,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分．"},{"start":4056.269,"end":4057.57,"text":"這個題目連美人都必講"},{"start":4082.858,"end":4097.726,"text":"那現在坦白講這個總預算今年又出現了有關這些問題市長要徹底解決也就是說下一屆可能要提促進轉移生意條約再修正案另外"},{"start":4098.379,"end":4119.937,"text":"另外有關於中正經常組織法都要修才能夠讓社會上能夠徹底來面對這個問題來解決所以這是暫保留每年都要討論但是偷偷的捨不得不知道同項將來怎麼樣都要修法的好不好好 保留好 謝謝接下來77案主決議那併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":4123.516,"end":4127.417,"text":"主決議議題案辦理議題案辦理議題案辦理照案通過接下來就請大家看70案70案改正類800萬"},{"start":4150.98,"end":4178.93,"text":"七十九案 七十九案 七十九案 整列八百萬 是整列八百萬 好好 那就通過八十案改組決議 沒意見通過好 那院長再補充一下因為八十案當然國防部做了許多文字上的修正啦齁但是基本上意義意義跟我們原意差不多所以就這部分我也同意啦齁但是也希望說國防部能夠針對這種"},{"start":4180.43,"end":4206.838,"text":"新型態的戰爭包括像現在以色列跟阿馬斯或是烏克蘭跟俄羅斯的這個狀況新型態的戰爭並不是說變成是說不是說只有軍人跟軍人之間的戰鬥也包括就是說全民國防等等之類的尤其是說你可以看到像烏克蘭的這個狀況尤其是他跟他的敵對的國家他的實力相差很懸殊的情況之下"},{"start":4208.999,"end":4209.2,"text":"主席"},{"start":4234.332,"end":4258.008,"text":"那80案就改組決議 沒有意見就通過啦好 81案改組決議 沒有意見通過82案 併委員會決議辦理 那沒有意見通過83案 也併委員會決議辦理 那個不好意思那個 院長 我們83案是不是請國防部我們是不是可以溝通 是不是改組決議你們同意嗎 好不好 我們改組決議好不好提書面報告改組決議是吧 不凍結"},{"start":4264.379,"end":4272.525,"text":"就凍結併委員會辦理併委員會辦理 那就併委員會辦理好了凍結的部分併委員會辦理提案改組結議我們重新更正 我們就同意併委員會辦理凍結併委員會辦理凍結併委員會辦理沒有意見就通過巴士案併委員會辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":4295.608,"end":4304.716,"text":"85 通山 暫不處理86 仲傑10萬年事務室也併委員接辦理86 也併委員接辦理87 88 都通山就暫不處理好不好"},{"start":4314.55,"end":4341.048,"text":"按照通算處理8989我要講一下喔院長雖然說我們現在已經就是同意那個國防部的文字修正但是我們必須要了解喔就是海軍的軍品軍用器材跟資訊管理系統軍品的數量金額都常常發生錯誤而且是不是小錯是巨額的錯誤喔那"},{"start":4341.856,"end":4352.474,"text":"這些都沒有查出原因而讓他一直就是延期這樣子漏息一直都沒有糾正沒有改變我覺得這不對的是不是"},{"start":4355.474,"end":4373.534,"text":"我跟委員報告,每次各軍種有這些問題的話,我們都是即時來做一個檢討改進的。但委員就講有些個案,我想建議我們同仁海軍會再去跟委員做說明,把哪一個個案還沒有處理,或處理不夠周圍的,這樣我們知道以後我們來強化。"},{"start":4374.955,"end":4375.496,"text":"民眾感到更混亂"},{"start":4395.44,"end":4406.826,"text":"我們單獨來跟委員做說明報告哪個個案我們怎麼做的,去跟委員做說明我們就按照文字修正結議,就文字修正好,每一件通過,90案"},{"start":4422.924,"end":4436.784,"text":"委員會接辦理嗎不是 院長我說明一下這個九十案也有跟部長說明過就是說這個光部在新竹市的這個寡婦樓的都更案那在"},{"start":4438.126,"end":4456.565,"text":"參議集團這個行賄這個當時的沉鄉署的嚴建署沉鄉分署長洪嘉宏兩千萬的匯款那在這個那他同時又新組另外兩個遠雄的都更案所會四千五百萬被收押那他最近已經被判刑八年兩個月"},{"start":4457.586,"end":4477.543,"text":"是非常清楚就是說這個判決書上面寫的就是這個分署長那掌握了資格審查中所有的細節跟決策權那因此而讓這個倡議集團下面的這個李明開發拿下這個都更案而且他基本上就是唯一家符合資格的廠商"},{"start":4478.063,"end":4478.323,"text":"判刑"},{"start":4498.469,"end":4522.319,"text":"這個倡議集團的這個應該是說這個高層基本上是被緩起訴表示說基本上他們都有認罪的這個狀況之下所以是沒有道理說讓這樣的違法取得的標案的廠商還繼續在施作光譜的這個都更案所以我基本上會認為說這個就是應該要解除契約收回這個國有土地"},{"start":4522.759,"end":4545.268,"text":"那至於說未來再怎麼處理的話﹖當然就是用公開透明的方式去進行﹖或者是有相關的作用那我同樣也質詢過這個公共工程委員會的吳哲成主委﹖他的見解基本上也是一樣的就是說沒有道理讓一個行賄的廠商還繼續讓他施作我們政府的這個都更案"},{"start":4546.108,"end":4561.056,"text":"所以部長就這部分的話我覺得這個是非常明確的而且這個已經發生這樣的舞弊的事情的時候也對國防部如果要繼續施作的話基本上對國防部的reputation是不好的"},{"start":4563.064,"end":4581.022,"text":"我跟總統報告,這個案子總統很關切,也連續跟我們講好幾次我們這案子辦的時候,據我了解,它行賄跟受賄的,未必是同一個關係所以目前我們當然也是這樣,假如有政績確鑿,該要退就退,該要重來就重來"},{"start":4581.442,"end":4581.702,"text":"主席"},{"start":4601.421,"end":4626.373,"text":"當然就是說行政院要召開會議要集國防部或者是說這個內政部跟工程會當然我們也是這個肯定這個態度但是部長我必須要補充一下因為那時候我去質詢的時候是副部長在你沒在那他的回應也是說因為現在是一審判八年兩個月所以這個案件還沒去定驗還沒確定但是事實上不是這樣因為這個案件"},{"start":4627.293,"end":4649.947,"text":"當然還沒確定 還沒二審三審 他現在上訴訟可是我剛剛就是要告訴你說 他已經認罪了不管是行賄的人 或者是說收賄的官員 都是認罪或者貪污智慧條例收了兩千萬 甚至還有另外兩個案是四千五百萬其實他的收賄案件 這個加起來是將近九千萬"},{"start":4651.368,"end":4673.18,"text":"那不可能判8年2個月﹖是因為他有認罪﹖所以他有認罪的情況之下﹖二審是不可能﹖也許行度有可能改變﹖但是這已經很﹖機率很低了﹖因為這個是7年以上有期徒刑之罪﹖所以他已經認罪﹖行會也認罪﹖然後官員也認罪的情況之下﹖"},{"start":4673.88,"end":4695.523,"text":"二審是不可能改判無罪所以國防部我認為國防部的這個憂慮是多慮啦坦白講因為你們也應該有這個法治師嘛就是說你們應該也有法律的專家可以去諮詢才對那部長你可能可以多去了解而且實務上"},{"start":4697.004,"end":4721.319,"text":"並不是說定讞之後才要去跟他解約,沒有這不可能是說是...是,我也跟總統說啊就法律觀點來講的話,沒有到最後確認都有可能會變,但我不預設立場,可能會有一個轉變但就我們立場來講,你沒有定論的東西,我們就另外做出一個決定萬一將來出一些問題,它有一個差錯,那我們跟著有差錯"},{"start":4722.819,"end":4750.469,"text":"這個後果是一發不可收拾我比較可能要賠出更多一個補償金這樣的話我國安部承擔不起的那這應該是說公共會公共工程委員會就這個部分的話其實他的這個條文裡面也寫得非常清楚就是說公共會的見解也認為說不用到定焉的程度然後本來就是說你在這個有相關的問題產生的時候也可以去解約啦"},{"start":4751.129,"end":4752.169,"text":"90案保留91案是不是也併委員會接辦理"},{"start":4776.121,"end":4776.441,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4793.933,"end":4820.674,"text":"9393939393"},{"start":4821.152,"end":4822.773,"text":"是不是併委員會辦理要扣牧場他們去調整"},{"start":4853.729,"end":4854.269,"text":"96案 檢列20萬人 沒有見通過"},{"start":4884.141,"end":4894.903,"text":"好來97案是不是也要動 併委員會好 同意 併委員會辦理97案併委員會接辦理 沒人見通過98案建議改列組決議好 98案改組決議好 我們那個98案我們同意併委員會辦理併委員會接辦理 好來"},{"start":4914.264,"end":4918.586,"text":"99 案同意101 案改組結議沒有見通過102 案改組結議沒有見通過103 案改檢例這邊是五十萬"},{"start":4937.892,"end":4940.312,"text":"104案是不是因為前面凍結了3000多萬那這邊再凍結4000萬是不是病委員會結辦?病委員會啦一億多而言凍4000萬"},{"start":4964.076,"end":4964.617,"text":"改組決議105通3106通3107改檢列30萬元"},{"start":4986.873,"end":4991.257,"text":"這個是賴市法委員的這位有跟委員辦公室都說明溝通過"},{"start":5018.998,"end":5020.541,"text":"108通3我們就暫不處理109就通3也暫不處理1010"},{"start":5029.314,"end":5049.044,"text":"動結五十萬年 要不要病委員會決議辦理 同意 110病委員會決議辦理 沒意見通過11通3 12通3 13通3 都到時候病案處理了11宿主決議 那有沒有意見 沒意見通過11宿主決議 同意 沒意見召喚通過"},{"start":5059.996,"end":5083.812,"text":"116 組結議同意一體案辦理17 組結議一體案辦理好 並...照案通過啊就照案通過嘛好 照案通過好 來18 組結議文字修正文字修正 組結議修正通過好 同意19 組結議"},{"start":5088.42,"end":5111.624,"text":"議題案辦理一二零組決議一二零組決議這邊我們可能要做個補充說明要求本部要每一季把那個軍頭案執行的不管是公開或機密的都要發文給立法院我們記咧 我們記不要"},{"start":5119.534,"end":5140.546,"text":"委員這邊跟您做個報告我們跟美國的軍售案從明年開始他的財務清整頻率從每一年改成每半年這已經是對所有軍售國裡面密度最高的那如果我們每一季提供報告的話那不要寄咧我們改成每半年但是機密報告的部分我們依委員會的機密會議來做報告沒辦法提供書面資料專案啦專案機密報告那你這樣啦"},{"start":5148.39,"end":5172.615,"text":"他有修正文字嗎?我們有修正文字了每半年可以啦每半年可以上下會期每半年你這個要機密預算要在機密報告嗎?對啊就是專案機密報告那這早晚就可以排了"},{"start":5175.029,"end":5181.633,"text":"配合立法院上下半年會期以公開資料方式提供令事需要由立法院外交國防委員會要求專案機密報告"},{"start":5203.797,"end":5204.738,"text":"一二零組結議文字修正"},{"start":5229.673,"end":5238.564,"text":"修正文字的120組結議修正通過121組結議同意辦理好 照案通過122組結議同意辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":5245.526,"end":5268.615,"text":"一二三主決議 同意辦理 照案通過一二四主決議一二四我們這邊要做個補充說明因為這邊提到說請國安部針對於軍事投資建案作業規定等三項的行政規則在修訂的時候要向立法院提出專案報告並將現行的規定送外委會來備查我們是不是可以建議就是說因為我們每年的配合預算書表送立法院的時候有"},{"start":5269.195,"end":5271.577,"text":"合併年度五年兵力整建計畫及施政計畫報告向立法院外交國防委員會報告"},{"start":5295.094,"end":5296.434,"text":"修正通過修正通過"},{"start":5321.226,"end":5331.813,"text":"一二七組結議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過一二三也是改三個月跟書面報告一二三也是修正通過一二八組結議配合辦理 照案通過一二九組結議 配合辦理 照案通過"},{"start":5347.062,"end":5370.445,"text":"一三零 主決議做文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過一三一 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見就通過一三二 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見通過一三三 主決議並委員會決議辦理﹖沒有意見通過一三四 測案一三五 主決議文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":5372.466,"end":5386.533,"text":"136 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過137 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過138 測案139 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過140 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過141 主決議 並委員六決議辦理 沒意見通過142 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過143 主決議"},{"start":5402.349,"end":5426.047,"text":"有沒有意見配合辦理好 召喚通過144主決議文字修正好144主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過145撤案好報告院長這邊是不是普通報告第96案103案跟107案是三檢案那是不是這邊也是同一科目進行調整"},{"start":5427.748,"end":5427.908,"text":"國安部長"},{"start":5457.831,"end":5458.631,"text":"謝謝 接下來就國安局"},{"start":5475.874,"end":5477.815,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5500.972,"end":5501.152,"text":"主席"},{"start":5516.025,"end":5523.488,"text":"現在大家在意的是你那個區域化過大了它化過太大了你這麼一年不能化太大了"},{"start":5547.283,"end":5548.624,"text":"《中華民國113年度總預算案》"},{"start":5569.5,"end":5569.72,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":5595.936,"end":5596.837,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5620.332,"end":5620.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5634.477,"end":5635.057,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5659.48,"end":5660.521,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5686.923,"end":5687.523,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5734.284,"end":5734.304,"text":"我們繼續開會"},{"start":5737.987,"end":5755.977,"text":"第一開會接下來是國安局主管的那首先我來介紹介紹列席的首長國家安全局局長蔡明彥先生接下來我們就請大家看146案"},{"start":5758.564,"end":5776.79,"text":"那146案 這個臺灣民眾黨 邱董召你的意見了啦 146案好 那個 院長我想這個案子是今天的重點 針對這個案網的事情因為現在目前十大民院之首 我想詐騙是國人深受這個詐騙之苦"},{"start":5778.49,"end":5805.604,"text":"那在這次2024大選之前已經有傳出這個網路上有數千國人遭到監控而且有這個暗網有發現有高價出售情治機關偵控數據疑似這個企圖抹黑影響選舉那調查局表示現在正在這個深入調查當中但是我們當時第一時間來去了解並沒有給一個明確的回覆而且如果這個消息是真的話其實"},{"start":5806.964,"end":5830.031,"text":"選舉期間應該行政中立的相關情治單位現在目前有傳出監聽國內許多政要的這個監聽的這個紀錄齁那這個其實有行政不中立的問題那我們認為國安局應該針對這個案子詳細跟大眾說明齁除了不要影響大選的公平公正之外齁因為台灣的民主得來不易那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":5831.231,"end":5847.619,"text":"現在他目前網路上公告這些資料據我們了解基本上有七八成是符合事實的那當然我們第一時間跟國安局還有這個調查局了解他們是說目前相關的資料在查核中那也請最高檢最高檢這邊也責成這個臺北地檢署來"},{"start":5850.62,"end":5852.421,"text":"邱委員我建議一下好不好你這個凍結10%不要說凍結啦然後你講說"},{"start":5880.461,"end":5906.299,"text":"等國安局第16任總統附同選舉（立委選舉（期間如何讓選舉不受各自影響弄一個組結議好不好那就不要有動結數我想文字大家可以討論好不好形式可以那我們還是希望局長幫我們這個案子說明一下目前現在的狀況我先講結論好不好好不好局長說明以前我先講結論這是要動結數不要的弄改個組結議那請局長說明一下好不好"},{"start":5909.721,"end":5909.801,"text":"通訊監察"},{"start":5924.192,"end":5926.393,"text":"公務預算部分８立法院黨團協商８事由．立法院黨團協商．公務預算部分．立法院黨團協商．"},{"start":5946.202,"end":5972.618,"text":"進入司法程序之後,我們行政單位、官團隊實在不適合針對偵辦的個案來進行太多的一個評論那對於司法機關偵辦的過程跟結果,我們都予以尊重那第三個重點是委員關切到的假訊息散佈的問題那這部分我們有積極的在查處查處的重點包括追溯假訊息散播的來源、散播的管道以及散播的方式,這是第一部分那第二部分也會針對相關的假訊息來進行通報"},{"start":5973.639,"end":5996.772,"text":"所以從今年到現在為止我們已經通報到行政院有快700個假訊息的案件讓行政部門可以及時的來應處那第三個我們會把相關的假訊息散播的這些有問題的帳號會向社群媒體來做檢舉所以現在大概已經有下架包括臉書還有YouTube已經下架有幾千個有問題的帳號所以在查找的部分我們把大概處理的情形跟委員做以上的說明謝謝"},{"start":5999.023,"end":6016.768,"text":"第一 定位成認知作戰假訊息 依法行政是你們的標準進入司法程序 這個部分我們也尊重但是如何要後續來預防或是防治甚至是後續的查處 包含從資訊流 金流 還有整個的"},{"start":6018.828,"end":6039.702,"text":"員頭的追蹤管理這個部分有沒有一些因應措施對 有 針對那個溯源的部分我們都採用比較新的技術把假訊息散播的一個過程跟網路來做相關的查找那特別現在有很多的假訊息散播的帳號它是人工的帳號 一次性的帳號那這部分我們都會做完整的一個收集來提供給相關的單位來做查辦"},{"start":6042.212,"end":6070.178,"text":"院長 我想我們同意改成主決議一個月內向立法院提出報告應該要快點說明因為時間也很短總統選舉快要結束了在這個中間 那個國人有疑慮的部分是不是應該要先說明清楚或者是如果沒有辦法說明清楚的話現在也應該藉由預算協商的時候那個局長也應該說明清楚"},{"start":6070.818,"end":6096.061,"text":"現在這樣子喔我覺得因為那個消息一丟出來就變成說不管是朝野都政治人物然後呢他的電話在哪裡我們去查了然後現在你說假訊息是哪些是假訊息到現在為止你就去丟給高監署然後一推250然後最後就是造成一個"},{"start":6097.001,"end":6114.676,"text":"韓城效應造成一個恐怖的氛圍在那裡這樣很不好啊這個東西你講說這個假訊息你對於假訊息的處理我感覺國安局就是假處理假處理就是有政治目的在假處理感覺是非常不好的在裡面的人你會怎麼想"},{"start":6121.622,"end":6143.606,"text":"你們不能說到現在為止,我剛剛聽你講,到現在為止都沒有答案啊都沒有答案啊只是說我丟給公務員署了,丟給公務員署了,這樣而已這有一定的行政處理程序嘛,一定的嚴謹度嘛不是說他出來,講說這小訊息就結束了我想這個案子第一個我還是很建議,凍結數就不要了"},{"start":6147.025,"end":6153.612,"text":"主決議我們同意主決議但是我們 我想 局長你在針對剛剛那個國民黨團的意見我覺得你再詳細說明一下因為老實講選舉也剩31天而已那你再提一個月書面報告老實講也來不及"},{"start":6168.646,"end":6196.831,"text":"所以我希望你們再針對﹐包含剛剛講的認知作戰﹐高檢署現在的進度﹐還有你們後續要怎麼預防﹐然後假訊息的判讀﹐怎麼樣跟國人來告知﹐我覺得這個部分﹐我覺得你講清楚好不好﹐你在這邊講清楚﹐那你們這個書面報告﹐我這邊具體建議﹐是不是兩個禮拜好不好﹐兩個禮拜﹐這個書面報告坦白講﹐它有實效性好不好﹐那怎麼實效性都是﹐坦白講都是一樣嘛﹐因為它總統公告"},{"start":6199.052,"end":6221.754,"text":"國安局應該請國安局在怪假進行的部分隨時出來澄清不過澄清的方面已經要澄清了當然他們比較嚴謹嘛對 案件在第一時間 最高檢已經出來說明沒有 那就發個新聞稿而已啦 我老實說啦那一個資訊的判讀 你們說你們還要再去做查核那目前就我們的了解 那上面基本上七八成是真的啊"},{"start":6222.873,"end":6242.972,"text":"七八成是真的﹖或許有部分是假﹖現在詐騙最大﹖真假難分﹖他七分真 三分假﹖你為什麼那麼多人被騙﹖就是因為他拿到你部分真實的資料﹖去年也有那十五萬就可以買到這些﹖柯總報紙是不講而已﹖我老實說﹖你也很擔心被監聽吧﹖很多我們自己的資訊也被公告﹖"},{"start":6245.074,"end":6272.289,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分是一個寒蟬效應之外我們先不講選舉嘛那國人最痛恨就是這個詐騙這真真假假最難分辨那現在既然這個案子已經這麼高度社會關注我希望局長趁今天這個時間大家提出意見你再詳細說明一下尤其就是說源頭的管理預防的機制還有假訊息的判讀甚至你甚至每個禮拜甚至每天你都要出來澄清假訊息可能我覺得都有必要有 這個有"},{"start":6272.709,"end":6300.585,"text":"好 趁這個機會再跟國人說明一下我覺得不錯 邱委員講得非常好我覺得現在假訊息的認定 是來認定外面有一些什麼第三方來認定那很多人都知道第三方 有些第三方 都是老科的車役在認定喔沒有車役 我就直譯部隊而已上面認定中心"},{"start":6301.966,"end":6302.206,"text":"國安局認定"},{"start":6323.26,"end":6346.767,"text":"這些團體來認定 這些亂地很多 馬上就問 什麼顏色 什麼顏色 什麼顏色都這樣啊 事實是如此啊 那為什麼不用官方單位來認定 你來認定那可以定期公布嗎 一個禮拜公布一次沒有啦 那我認定很清楚當然他會公布啊 要查證等等啊啊查證你別那麼急喔 這個政府的國家性格比較嚴謹啊好啦 柯總召 趕快做結論這個是民意非常關注的嘛 你如果說"},{"start":6351.869,"end":6381.391,"text":"陳.陳.陳.陳.陳.陳.陳."},{"start":6381.536,"end":6382.978,"text":"我只是事實的糾正而已阿"},{"start":6400.977,"end":6401.477,"text":"主席通信監察"},{"start":6421.583,"end":6440.508,"text":"特別通訊監察一定要送到高等法院來裁核﹐法院同意了之後才可以進行相關的通訊監察﹐所以過程一定都是依法行政來執行﹐這部分請委員可以放心﹐依法行政﹐第二個委員所提到的重點﹐是對於個案﹐暗網在床部的通訊監察資料的個案﹐"},{"start":6440.968,"end":6463.849,"text":"因為在第一時間 最高檢已經在偵辦這個案子 啟動了司法調查的一個程序那就我們國安單位來講 我們不適合在司法機關已經在審查的個案去做公開的評論我們要拿捏那個尊重司法的憤記那對於司法單位調查的一個過程跟結果 我們行政單位都予以尊重有需要配合的 我們會全力來配合 這大概是第二個要跟各位委員報告跟說明的"},{"start":6465.369,"end":6486.734,"text":"假訊息的查查或查處﹐這個部分有一個原則﹐主要的原則是在於﹐那個假訊息必須是惡、假、害﹐它有惡意的﹐是假的﹐而且對於我們的社會有造成危害的﹐依照這樣的原則﹐我們發現了有問題﹐就會通報到行政單位﹐再由行政單位來判斷說這樣的問題﹐怎麼樣在第一時間來做必要的澄清﹐"},{"start":6487.176,"end":6487.376,"text":"主席主席議員"},{"start":6515.643,"end":6534.249,"text":"好 那通過 147 測案 148 通山 我們就通案處理那 149 測案 那 150 通山院長不好意思 148 它已經改成組決議啦所以沒有通山的這個問題這樣150 我們也說一下好不好"},{"start":6541.685,"end":6541.865,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6556.286,"end":6572.176,"text":"我們也說一下好不好 因為我覺得說目前的那個總統座車已經就是說符合那個也不需要再升級了 阿我們怎麼知道說誰擁著 阿我們的總統參選人侯友宜不需要再升級阿對不是 這國家的問題不是誰當 未來誰當總統"},{"start":6576.638,"end":6578.719,"text":"來接下來就喬委會謝謝主席"},{"start":6609.701,"end":6633.231,"text":"在換班的時候我跟大家報告一件事情117案要更正剛剛組結議宣告的時候是照案通過因為扁案委員有文字修正所以重新宣告117案組結議文字修正通過"},{"start":6635.777,"end":6661.44,"text":"有簽名的嗎?來!交委會來!那我們現在進行交委會那我跟大家報告一下齁交委會徐家欽委員長他有昨天就有打電話來因為他因為公務他今天沒有辦法趕到那請這個副委員長歷史那我介紹一下齁我們的副委員長就阮昭雄先生好請下"},{"start":6662.401,"end":6662.421,"text":"154案"},{"start":6684.11,"end":6693.773,"text":"是不是155、156都是凍結嗎那併委員會啊那併委員會好不好那併委員會因為委員會已經凍結了400多萬對報告主席這個部分委員會沒有凍結委員會沒有凍結我們建議改組決議好 那就改組決議哪一個案"},{"start":6713.524,"end":6721.087,"text":"154到156154154 155 156全部改為拒絕役陳允慶委員同意是不是有說明沒有拒絕市委員什麼事情"},{"start":6733.976,"end":6740.505,"text":"有溝通說明沒有拒絕154 156都改為主決議啦這一般行政AOA都改主決議他事實上這個可以併案一個主決議就可以了吧"},{"start":6751.71,"end":6758.732,"text":"都改為主決議154 155 156都改為主決議157也是改為主決議嗎沒有要撤案啦特別會特別會的問題啦特別會 保留要不要撤案沒有要撤案158他們同意撤10萬"},{"start":6781.454,"end":6785.095,"text":"剪列十萬科目字條剪十萬科目字條再來是159建議改組結議159改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":6810.333,"end":6814.836,"text":"160 通3161 動100萬年改組協議 調效的改組協議 沒有意見通過162 改動20萬年動20萬要不要併委會"},{"start":6832.472,"end":6832.612,"text":"163改組結議163改組結議 164動議100萬"},{"start":6849.775,"end":6851.456,"text":"建議改組結議164改組結議165改凍結二十萬年166改組結議167改組結議"},{"start":6877.423,"end":6877.985,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6887.467,"end":6901.409,"text":"那這邊凍結很像那我們說併委員這一半你就併這個嗎?要應戰嗎?是可以啦,但是太生病了再來就是說,他如果說這邊已經凍結440萬那我們再加一個凍結50萬,假設啦他會變成440萬還是490萬?"},{"start":6916.923,"end":6917.063,"text":"好來好來"},{"start":6952.464,"end":6952.644,"text":"167案這張有修對不對"},{"start":6977.52,"end":6983.782,"text":"改為檢列50萬年 沒意見通過公務自行調整再來是168案改組結議 沒意見通過169組結議 有沒有意見 沒意見就照樣通過170組結議 沒有意見 沒意見就照樣通過"},{"start":7003.45,"end":7008.935,"text":"171 文字修正好 OK好 那沒意見就修正通告好好 謝謝 謝謝主委"},{"start":7064.412,"end":7071.56,"text":"跟大家報告一下 黨團要求休息30分鐘 11點半開始開會"},{"start":9603.992,"end":9604.215,"text":"好好好"},{"start":9677.594,"end":9678.536,"text":"院長晚上會到幾點十點嗎你還沒訂嗎好"},{"start":9720.573,"end":9746.329,"text":"各位先進我們現在就繼續開會那繼續開會我先跟大家報告一下我們現在要進行的是行政院主管行政院主管在這裡有兩個部分一個是國家發展委員會一個是公民交易委員會這兩個機關處理完了我們就早上就告一段落"},{"start":9747.748,"end":9760.916,"text":"那這樣這個兩個部位有多少案呢46案所以應該不會太久那下午的時間就看大家尊重各位黨團大家看要幾點開始我們等一下再來商量好不好那現在"},{"start":9773.544,"end":9798.305,"text":"我來介紹一下 列席的這個所長首先介紹 我看主席 主席長 介紹 行政院主席總署 主席長 朱哲平先生國家發展委員會主任委員 國民新先生現在我們就請大家看這個案號 第一案第一案 國發會的總稅處改組決議 沒有意見就通過"},{"start":9804.346,"end":9827.661,"text":"主席 因為我們跟紅委員已經有溝通過他同意把他改成主決議好 那第二案改成主決議沒有見通過第三案也改主決議 沒有見通過第四案我們也跟紅委員溝通過了做了文字上的修正那委員也同意把他改成主決議"},{"start":9828.942,"end":9840.135,"text":"第四案稿子決議 文字修正第五案我們是建議可不可以併委員會的決議第五案併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":9849.537,"end":9850.738,"text":"第六案第七案"},{"start":9864.824,"end":9866.606,"text":"第六案呢?第六案是我們的啊?國發會可以同意嗎?"},{"start":9882.503,"end":9891.849,"text":"第五案保留第六案也是保留第七案 並委員會接辦理如好第八案 並委員會接辦理如好"},{"start":9907.859,"end":9921.712,"text":"第9案這個病毒委員結一半禮沒有意見通過第10案因為通商就不處理通商科目不處理接下來就11案11案11案凍結5%我們病毒委員結一半禮如何沒有意見就通過"},{"start":9929.42,"end":9934.625,"text":"第十二案通商案就不予處理第十三案凍結作為並委員會接辦理"},{"start":9949.2,"end":9976.698,"text":"並委員決議辦理好謝謝第十七案並委員決議辦理如何好好明明一切通過那第十八案簡列一百萬年這個大家意見怎麼樣我們跟那個賴委員有溝通過他是說改成簡列十萬然後我們客戶自行調整客戶自行調整好十八案改為簡列十萬年"},{"start":9980.3,"end":9987.504,"text":"19案通3案就不予處理 20案主結議 有沒有意見22案主結議 22案主結議 23案主結議 24案主結議"},{"start":10001.392,"end":10023.686,"text":"市長有跟委員討論有調整調整三個月我再宣布一下所有的文字如果是一個A兩個A都改為三個A然後專案報告改為書面報告所以有關歐斯蘭的決議我們就文字修正修正通過"},{"start":10025.507,"end":10050.904,"text":"那再來25案主決議 文字修正 是那沒有意見就修正通過26案主決議 遵照辦理好 照案通過27案主決議 遵照辦理好 照案通過 28案主決議這個已經有跟委員討論了這個3個一樣修正3個月改成3個月那個部分好 那就這樣 28案主決議那我們就文字修正 修正通過"},{"start":10052.452,"end":10052.932,"text":"二十九案組結議"},{"start":10072.325,"end":10074.766,"text":"三十案主決議三十二案主決議三十三案主決議"},{"start":10099.793,"end":10100.433,"text":"純照辦理純照辦理純照辦理"},{"start":10121.222,"end":10121.782,"text":"公平交易委員會"},{"start":10164.09,"end":10173.525,"text":"好 我介紹列席的所長 光平教育委員會主任委員李美竹 主委好 謝謝"},{"start":10176.296,"end":10203.514,"text":"來 接下來我們就請大家看 41案改組結議 有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見 那就通過42案有新華社區邱總召這邊有一個組結議喔 修改的沒有好笑的對 就這樣同意那個改組結議好 42案改組結議 沒有意見就通過44案組結議做文書修正 沒有意見就修正通過44案組結議 有沒有意見"},{"start":10206.823,"end":10207.444,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10224.791,"end":10239.057,"text":"我們早上就到這樣經濟部我們就留到下午開始經濟部主管的就下午開始那現在請大家決定一下下午是要12點開始還是12點半還是要1點1點好了1點好了1點好了 早一點弄"},{"start":10252.287,"end":10261.672,"text":"好 要回來啦好 1點好 1點1點10分1點10分1點10分1點15分好安眠到11點齁好 OK"},{"start":10284.19,"end":10288.919,"text":"主席長同意不同意1點15分繼續開會謝謝大家"},{"start":15497.776,"end":15524.561,"text":"好各位先進我們現在就來開始進行下午的協商下午的協商最主要就是現在開始就要針對經濟部主管的部分那我現在來介紹列席的所長首先介紹經濟部部長王美花女士"},{"start":15527.034,"end":15546.646,"text":"還有龍業部主席長我們還是重新介紹一下行政院主席長請大家就看47案院長與其各位先進"},{"start":15556.021,"end":15585.263,"text":"老柯 老柯聽到沒有 老柯我先講我的結論啦齁賴世寶的提案一個都不妥協 我通通保留 去 去 去標決原因 你先不要插話英文吉祥啦這個王美花部長 官威太大他找底下的人來協商 跟我們講什麼話他說 兩個KPI第一個KPI第一個KPI 撤案"},{"start":15587.247,"end":15600.472,"text":"他叫他部下叫立委撤案 第一個KPI 第二個KPI只能寫主決議 一毛錢都不能刪 這樣我是不是寫三三 王部長有沒有講得出話"},{"start":15601.903,"end":15602.563,"text":"我跟委員報告我完全沒有這樣子事"},{"start":15618.873,"end":15640.6,"text":"所以是他們說謊我對著麥克風我完全沒有這樣子是你可以發誓我可以發誓所以他們的不同的署長都講說我們倆拜託你要跟我們考他說拜託啊我們部長給我們的KPI只能屬決議只能叫測案你沒有這樣做的話我回去會被檢討他說被檢討好幾個署長這樣講"},{"start":15645.379,"end":15653.944,"text":"這樣就是用人情攻勢他等於拿一個人肉盾牌把署長當作人肉盾牌所以已經當然他已經發誓了"},{"start":15660.778,"end":15681.244,"text":"外面對你的評價是很假啦人家說科長當部長來做你工業也不是很懂商業也不是很懂官威很大啊哇居然幾千億的預算一毛錢都不能砍欸那是協商什麼所以沒有 我的主張 我的主張我沒有 我的主張我就這樣決定了齁"},{"start":15682.884,"end":15683.985,"text":"所以每一個署長都要抓他屁股 他們說謊"},{"start":15712.243,"end":15735.388,"text":"他們的首長 非常 非常誠懇的去辦公室溝通那怎麼說我不知道 但是 但是 完全一個就是寫主決議 一個就是 一個就是撤案 要寫上什麼啦沒有啦 這 要寫上什麼你去找別人 找別的案子就好了沒有啦 這我不相信 因為兩個差 差異太大了你不要關係太大 你不要關係太大"},{"start":15735.928,"end":15744.115,"text":"啊 官位太大了 你這官位或者你用怎麼講 或者你透過你的人去傳遞你嘴巴沒有講 底下你的幕僚 你的誠信要去講"},{"start":15745.441,"end":15763.029,"text":"你老委員嘛,你不容易受傷我內心很脆弱一個立委黨黨怎麼沒有面子一毛錢都不能刪欸幾千你的預算一毛錢都不能刪你剛才講的他也回答了我們大家要冷靜一點你就先保留我們第二輪再講我全部保留"},{"start":15773.453,"end":15779.358,"text":"我全部保留 我覺得這樣的協商沒有意義啦齁阿你沒有理睬我 我很少來這裏講啦 我的選舉我沒有要去試試這個是要討一個公道 替立委整一點面子我們立委被誇衰小咧 誇衰敗啊我也是立委啊你也叫我誇衰敗 不能刪 都不能刪阿你又講 我不會這樣講啦部長當得這麼大"},{"start":15797.602,"end":15799.303,"text":"賴委員 報告一下啦 因為我們預算就是要繼續進行賴委員的我們尊重"},{"start":15813.955,"end":15816.256,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":15829.46,"end":15830.481,"text":"經濟部主管的部分"},{"start":15855.021,"end":15869.031,"text":"這個51案齁51案這個51案是不是凍結10%是不是可以並委員會決議辦理因為委員會凍結蠻多的喔等一下柯團這個有沒有統算阿柯團有委員辦法這個地方那個委員會多少報告主席齁這個項目的話那個民眾黨黨團已經蓋章了改組決議"},{"start":15882.732,"end":15883.813,"text":"科技專案是有部分違範費不是全部"},{"start":15912.896,"end":15914.217,"text":"科專有的是委辦"},{"start":15943.002,"end":15944.104,"text":"五十九案並沒有接辦理,沒有見通過"},{"start":15963.399,"end":15985.306,"text":"那60案這個是凍結20% 這個是不是併委員接辦理好不好 60案併委員接辦理沒有先通過那61案也併委員接辦理 可以嗎沒有先通過那6263就通3 我們就暫不處理64 65 64凍結10%有沒有意見"},{"start":15992.407,"end":16012.321,"text":"六四的部分因為是本部職安聯防跟工防演練的重要預算所以建議改組決議改組決議好六四改組決議明天通過六十五六十五的部分的話早上的部分有個保留那個就賴委員的那我們就暫保暫保保留了暫保"},{"start":16013.649,"end":16032.723,"text":"好那66凍結200萬年有沒有意見改組決議好了建議修改文字改組決議好那改組決議文字修改沒有意見通過再來是67案凍結10%改組決議改組決議啊那個委員會委員會有凍嗎沒有凍"},{"start":16042.438,"end":16054.806,"text":"委員會沒有動這一段數字很少2925萬元那個是資訊系統所以那個經費也非常少改組決議好了好 那就改組決議 沒見通過68案 凍結100萬元是不是也改組決議沒有沒有 68案我說明一下68案我們民眾黨團這邊提這個是雜糧發展基金會現在的問題那這個地方我們才提凍100萬不行嗎"},{"start":16072.958,"end":16079.743,"text":"可以啦 但是不是不可以好 那就照案嘛好 那就一百萬是吧好 那免費券通過喔好 69案改組結議 免費券通過好70案 凍結10%對 一樣的嘛 改組結議好不好好"},{"start":16091.971,"end":16091.991,"text":"改組結議"},{"start":16114.486,"end":16129.767,"text":"七十四案就改組結議,沒有意見通過七十五案也改組結議七十六案也改組結議,沒有意見通過七十七改組結議,沒有意見通過"},{"start":16130.948,"end":16147.749,"text":"七十八改組結議沒有先通過七十九改組結議沒有先通過八十那個邱委員你改組結議這個同一項目的國安事業管理只有三千多萬而已沒關係這個地方凍結不行嗎改組結議好了"},{"start":16148.59,"end":16148.93,"text":"剛才已經有說那個動"},{"start":16168.582,"end":16170.523,"text":"68案處理68案就是剛才就是有凍結凍結一百萬年嘛就是68案合併凍結一百萬這樣對不對那就這樣"},{"start":16197.821,"end":16204.883,"text":"併68案好來81案凍結10萬元10萬元10萬元而已也不行喔這個凍結10萬元而且386年"},{"start":16219.804,"end":16220.244,"text":"主席有簽改組決議"},{"start":16232.101,"end":16259.059,"text":"主結議好主結議沒有意見通過82案公立小委員的就凍結凍結15%我們病毒委員會結議辦理好沒有意見就病毒委員會結議辦理那83案改凍結100萬年沒有意見通過84通385通3我們就到時候病案處理86改主結議"},{"start":16262.821,"end":16279.631,"text":"85是那個要增資台電的1100億的部分 是不是排除在通商裡面等一下85我們是不是已經改組決議了沒有 沒改組決議啦85改組決議好了那它不是通商啦"},{"start":16280.552,"end":16281.272,"text":"改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議改組結議"},{"start":16309.878,"end":16321.165,"text":"好 照案通過 90 主決議好 照案通過 91 的主決議好 照案通過 92 主決議92 的主決議做文字修正 那沒問題就修正通過好 那 93 主決議好 照案通過"},{"start":16337.455,"end":16337.896,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16342.915,"end":16372.137,"text":"九十四是不是有文字修正是 那個委員已經簽了九十四文字修正通過九十四文字修正九十四的文字的主決議文字修正那沒有意見就修正通過九十五的主決議就是有做文字修正文字修正那我們九十五的主決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過九十六主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":16374.409,"end":16386.895,"text":"97 主決議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過98 主決議有做文書修正 沒意見就修正通過好99 主決議 有沒有意見遵照辦理好 召喚通過9100 主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過"},{"start":16395.705,"end":16396.466,"text":"我們建議修正文字"},{"start":16416.477,"end":16437.266,"text":"在那個第三行有部分修正然後最後面是改成評估把核能納入我國能源選項的可行性105組決議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過106組決議106我們最後也做一點文字修正這個不是只有用電大戶所以是請能源署針對太陽光電結合建物"},{"start":16437.706,"end":16462.086,"text":"提出相關安全規範好106主席做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過107主席遵照辦理好召喚通過108主席遵照辦理好召喚通過109主席遵照辦理好召喚通過10110主席遵照辦理好沒有意見召喚通過111主席要調整一下文字要修正"},{"start":16464.778,"end":16486.943,"text":"文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、2主席也是文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、1、3好沒有意見就照案通過1、1、4文字修正好1、1、4主席做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1、1、5"},{"start":16490.31,"end":16518.104,"text":"也是文字修正好15主席願意做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過16主席願意好 召喚通過17 遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過18遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過19遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過120遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過121遵照辦理好 沒意見召喚通過122做部分文字修正"},{"start":16519.349,"end":16545.388,"text":"做文字修正好沒有意見就修正通過好那123文字修正好沒有意見就修正文字修正通過124遵照辦理好沒有意見就召喚通過好125組結議文字有修正已經簽名好125組結議做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過126文字修正嘿好"},{"start":16546.601,"end":16554.227,"text":"沒有意見就文書修正通過127組協議沒有意見就召喚通過128組協議那沒有意見就召喚通過127通過召喚通過就沒有保留了"},{"start":16566.731,"end":16567.452,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16593.211,"end":16599.093,"text":"副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員副委員"},{"start":16620.397,"end":16629.259,"text":"132 也是保留﹖賴委員的﹖暫時保留133 併爐的決議辦理沒有意見通過134 改組決議沒有意見通過135 併爐的決議辦理沒有意見通過136 改組決議沒有意見通過137 測案138 沒有意見就"},{"start":16645.316,"end":16674.377,"text":"142 凍結10%該組決議"},{"start":16676.324,"end":16676.707,"text":"來組協議明天先通過"},{"start":16678.459,"end":16685.822,"text":"好143凍結10%改組結議沒人先改組結議沒人先通過好144改組結議沒人先通過好145通商就暫不處理146檢列160不處理賴司法委員的我們就保留暫時保留147凍結10%改組結議改組結議好沒人先通過好我忘記"},{"start":16710.259,"end":16728.953,"text":"148閉路人節辦理沒有意見通過149 150 151全部是通商項目我們就暫不處理152組結議做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過153組結議有沒有意見就照辦理那就照案通過154改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":16737.453,"end":16739.055,"text":"155 156 157 都是通商 我們就暫不處理 158 凍結10%159 也是改組決議 免費簽通過"},{"start":16760.68,"end":16760.7,"text":"161案"},{"start":16789.565,"end":16815.742,"text":"164凍結10%"},{"start":16816.122,"end":16816.582,"text":"165 主決議166 主決議167 主決議168 凍結10%"},{"start":16842.765,"end":16858.073,"text":"委員長我們這部分已經把資料送到委員辦公室送了以後怎麼樣今天改組結議組結議啦改好了嗎還沒有因為委員只要我們送到辦公室這樣子這樣就改組結議好這樣就改組結議好民運縣組結議通過"},{"start":16866.584,"end":16873.286,"text":"那這個169凍結10%也改組結1好了沒有意見就通過170凍結10%也改組結1沒有意見通過好不好那171凍結1就照案通過172改組結1沒有意見通過173凍結1000萬元陳總召在這裡來"},{"start":16895.97,"end":16897.251,"text":"174 175 都是通商項目 176 凍結四分之一"},{"start":16924.123,"end":16935.496,"text":"主席報告,因為這個是依照人種的標準去編列我們河川分贖章的特指費,所以我們建議這個案子能不能測案"},{"start":16938.836,"end":16961.051,"text":"176這是特別會啦特別會好 策案好 謝謝來 謝謝策案177改凍結百分之一沒有見通過跟主席報告 這個能不能並委員會決議不是已經都講好也簽名邱總召在這裡 來對啦"},{"start":16963.084,"end":16967.486,"text":"這個就是照本來的就好了177 178這個都已經寫好了也簽名了都簽名了177凍結1%沒有意見通過178凍結1%沒有意見通過179改組結議沒有意見通過好那180180怎麼樣"},{"start":16989.577,"end":16991.859,"text":"181改主決議182改主決議183改主決議"},{"start":17017.13,"end":17017.93,"text":"186、187都是通商項目"},{"start":17038.131,"end":17038.871,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":17056.86,"end":17066.327,"text":"改為主決議 免預先通過191 併通3 項目處理192 改主決議 免預先通過193 改主決議 免預先通過194 凍結500萬年好 這個跟陳委員協調過了就是改為這個併主決議就是改為主決議好 主決議那免預先通過195這個賴市保委員的我們就暫時保留齁好"},{"start":17086.323,"end":17092.986,"text":"196 凍結10%這個建議改為主決議辦理好改為主決議沒有意見通過197、198、199都是通商項目並通商案辦在一起處理2000主決議這個遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":17108.444,"end":17115.485,"text":"201 主決議 遵照辦理202 主決議 遵照辦理203 主決議 遵照辦理204 主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過205 主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過206 屬於通商207"},{"start":17134.895,"end":17138.597,"text":"主席報告因為這個案子是委員希望我們找超商業者解決物流車停車問題我們8月有開過會那因為這筆錢是做公司登記的那個業務沒有辦法停頓是不是委員這邊不要凍結我們預算"},{"start":17160.851,"end":17181.27,"text":"好 邱董昭麻煩重新考慮2028我們的這個案就是說涉及的是說這個運送貨物停車的問題不是只有司機跟物流車要分擔就是說讓這些業者本身也應該要共同承擔"},{"start":17182.199,"end":17195.897,"text":"那這個問題就是說這一些不管是說超商啦超市量販業者等等之類的那你在日本的話基本上你如果要設立一個超商的話你是要去有一個自己的停貨車的停車位嗎"},{"start":17197.419,"end":17218.871,"text":"因為你可以想像說你一旦超商設下去之後每天各種不同的溫層的送冷凍食品的、送報紙的、送熱飲的這些熱食的東西的那每天至少會5到7次嘛那你如果說你連一個貨車停車格都沒有的情況之下那大部分都是在違規停車的"},{"start":17220.532,"end":17222.132,"text":"《中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":17239.877,"end":17265.229,"text":"這個造勢責任的歸屬,所以這是非常不公平的啦所以我們希望說應該這一個新設的零售業要把這個卸貨交通計畫納入到商業登記室的審查條件然後去研議說未來就這個部分的話他能夠有一些這個連帶責任或等等等等之類的然後提及一個書面報告,所以我們"},{"start":17266.209,"end":17282.748,"text":"所以希望說應該去做這個部分那其實之前也有跟經濟部商業司討論過那這種案件在這個你現在也升格為屬那在這種案件在台灣各個角落裡面是層出不窮"},{"start":17284.069,"end":17297.683,"text":"所以應該是不能夠讓這些超商全台灣光是四大超商就有一萬家不能夠讓這一些超商然後把這個經濟的外部性由社會來承擔這是非常不公平的"},{"start":17298.922,"end":17310.389,"text":"那不是委員那是不是因為這筆預算是做公司登記委員是不是不要凍結那麼多就是這樣啦就是你們那個加強研議辦理啦然後改組決議啦好不好還是說這個併委員會的這個委員會沒有凍結委員會沒有凍結喔對決議啦選字因為那個錢齁是給那個六都還有中辦來辦公司登記啦那個錢是比較"},{"start":17324.156,"end":17324.336,"text":"公務委員．．．"},{"start":17347.521,"end":17370.31,"text":"應該不是只有經濟部能夠解決這個問題因為這其實就是說看現象就是說一般在他設立這個操商的時候你每天一定有五到七天會送回車嘛那在這個狀況之下你設立了這個車子之後如果假設你連一個貨車停車格都沒有的時候你每天就是設立一個店然後就創造了五到七次的違規停車"},{"start":17372.01,"end":17397.592,"text":"但是因為商業登記或公司登記其實都是書面審查那委員要的是要實質說他有停車格才可以那這個恐怕不是由商業登記法這邊來處理但是部長我的意思就是說因為像在日本他要設立這個商店的時候他就自己要有一個停車位嘛那你可以在未來新設的零售業要把"},{"start":17397.972,"end":17419.453,"text":"他的卸貨交通計劃納入到商業登記室的審查條件你可以自己買一個停車格但是你要告訴大家你的車跟規劃就是說要停在哪嘛像日本有時候的狀況是說那在這附近比如說有幾十公尺外有一個停車場那他的車就停在那邊他再用小貨車把他送過來"},{"start":17422.079,"end":17444.277,"text":"而不是說像我們現在的這個狀況所以其實在臺灣各個角落裡面到處都在發生這種事情剛才署長有提到8月份有找他們來開過一次會那這個部分我們會再找包括交通部等等一起再來討論這個怎麼樣去克服這個問題那我們就改用組結議處理啦好 明天見就通過好 209案組結議有沒有見沒有見就照案通過"},{"start":17450.342,"end":17452.763,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":17473.909,"end":17498.131,"text":"我們就召喚通過在215的總稅出改組決議沒有見通過216的這一部分像主席跟委員報告有跟委員辦公室主任報告過那是不是能夠改成組決議你們這邊能不能就是你們委員會有沒有這一個項目有凍結嗎"},{"start":17499.642,"end":17499.862,"text":"委員提供資料"},{"start":17529.353,"end":17529.893,"text":"改組決議217改組決議218組決議遵照辦理"},{"start":17556.857,"end":17556.977,"text":"憲議並委員會決議辦理"},{"start":17586.035,"end":17586.256,"text":"221主決議221主決議221通過"},{"start":17607.998,"end":17618.161,"text":"通山 通山項目併案處理226改組決議沒有意見通過227通山也是併通山項目一起處理28 29 230 231 232 233 234 235 236都是併通山項目一起再處理237組決議"},{"start":17634.54,"end":17659.567,"text":"沒意見 照案通過238主決議順道辦理沒意見 照案通過239順道辦理沒意見 照案通過240主決議240有文字修正委員同意沒有意見就修正通過241主決議有修正文字委員同意沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":17662.312,"end":17664.654,"text":"接下來就農業部農業部再來就財政"},{"start":17713.619,"end":17714.92,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17738.087,"end":17749.723,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17762.873,"end":17763.293,"text":"請大家看242案"},{"start":17791.67,"end":17795.432,"text":"22改組決議沒有見通過23改組決議沒有見通過244改組決議沒有見通過245併通3處理246改組決議沒有見通過我們等一下好了"},{"start":17820.578,"end":17821.059,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17860.385,"end":17869.95,"text":"來啊啦,規定這次要處理啊不來了?"},{"start":17889.326,"end":17890.047,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17919.898,"end":17920.359,"text":"現在是二十四開始"},{"start":17946.704,"end":17959.914,"text":"25通3就併案處理246就改組結議,沒有意見通過247通3就併案處理,併通3處理28改組結議,沒有意見通過249通3就併案處理250改組結議,沒有意見通過"},{"start":17976.183,"end":17995.276,"text":"251改組決議免預先通過252我們是不是可以見情委免以凍結然後改組決議文字修正這特別費的部分保留保留你要增加什麼什麼增加252保留"},{"start":18001.116,"end":18023.815,"text":"二五三二五三是不是也可以改組決議然後做做文字的修正因為最主要農業管理是我們很多的農營移蓄的相關的一般的營運還有一些訓練的部分好 院長不是喔 院長這個反對因為這個涉及到是說你說這一個雞蛋有黑市亂象的問題"},{"start":18025.616,"end":18045.075,"text":"結果呢 這個有三種管道 第一個是說 行政院籌組法務部主責的物價聯合稽查小組 扣過刑法251條結果 到11月底前 因為雞蛋這個案件而遭罰的案件是零件 沒辦法"},{"start":18046.577,"end":18070.046,"text":"第二個是用農業部依據這個農產品市場交易法第6條而受第35條遭開罰的案件有幾件還是零件第三個是用公平會的防制人為操縱物價專案小組然後設有這個民眾來檢舉等等之類的結果民眾檢舉的案件是188件成功開罰的案件也是零件"},{"start":18070.986,"end":18087.72,"text":"所以顯示你這個根本完全都沒有任何的成效那這個是嚴重失職的啦你今天你覺得雞蛋的價格然後有可能有黑市的亂象等等之類的那你有這些管道"},{"start":18088.42,"end":18110.325,"text":"結果到最後你不要說這個有比較少的成效你的成效幾乎是零那你成效幾乎是零的情況之下你當然要去徹底的檢討嘛因為老百姓為了雞蛋這個事情苦不堪言了更何況你後來還搞出這些有的沒的去巴西買雞蛋等等這樣的狀況"},{"start":18113.366,"end":18138.231,"text":"人民交給你的是稅金這個是人民的血汗錢是要教你真的可以去努力的去做事情那連這樣的事情都嚴重的失職有三個管道那洪洪輝輝說有三個管道結果搞不好連一個連半間都沒有這是非常不應該的啊所以就這個部分的話我們會堅持這樣的一個案也希望說農業部要徹底的去檢討保留啊來"},{"start":18144.079,"end":18144.339,"text":"254委員已經同意改為主決議255"},{"start":18172.488,"end":18174.97,"text":"這一次雞蛋到底總共花了多少錢"},{"start":18196.056,"end":18219.839,"text":"現在我們因為整個的一個基幹有一部分還在處理當中那初步如果說全部的一些預算如果說連包括中華續產會本身自己處理的部分大概將近到快十億但是現在目前為止都還沒有任何的一筆經費向我們農業部來請求我們的補助哇 真厲害啊"},{"start":18221.072,"end":18235.845,"text":"沒有跟農委會申請,那誰出的錢不是,因為他本身我們在相關的那個續產會在處理的時候他有跟那個農業金庫做貸款,做融資貸款的部分那他用融資貸款的部分先去做處理"},{"start":18237.483,"end":18238.323,"text":"未來我們會根據相關的規定 如果說他"},{"start":18252.791,"end":18252.931,"text":"政府採購法規範補貼"},{"start":18275.179,"end":18295.401,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":18296.867,"end":18298.208,"text":"公務預算部分．．．"},{"start":18320.614,"end":18323.754,"text":"應該佔大概十幾%到20%左右大概是這個數字大概十幾%到20%左右那可能還要再精準的話是不是可以廢後再給委員"},{"start":18343.686,"end":18346.548,"text":"那個代理部長 是這個事情啊 浪費了這麼多公帑還影響2300萬的食糧問題要不要請省紀部去查賬 必要時候追究財務責任不過我跟委員報告齁 省紀部已經在清查我們的整個的一個相關的雞蛋的一些"},{"start":18366.86,"end":18393.964,"text":"一些相關的費用的一個支出你同不同意必要的時候追究財務責任我想以我們農業部本身在我當代理部長之後我在第二個禮拜就有請我們部裡面的專案的包括會計處去做相關的的一些查證那到目前為止我們並沒有發現任何不法的行為只是在數據的加總是有一些我沒有不法你一太大一太大的公開招標就沒有公開招標阿沒有"},{"start":18394.104,"end":18394.204,"text":"主席"},{"start":18408.973,"end":18429.02,"text":"中央市長會自己有錢是嗎 有沒有錢他自己有資金 我剛才說的不要贊成喔 這些液態彈的破 一塊錢都不能補助喔他如果補助我們不能超過二分之一他如果說沒有依政府採購法的話 我們不能超過二分之一另外那超私啊 超私資本有多少"},{"start":18430.884,"end":18445.608,"text":"本身的資本50萬 但是超支上次也講了不是 它本身的存摺 當時我們已經公開了它的存摺 它存摺裡面就有6千多萬然後它第一筆的當款也是它自己付的有將近10千多萬存摺跟你資本額都兩碼事啊"},{"start":18449.969,"end":18451.209,"text":"黃宏慶的登記交公司50萬可以借錢嗎"},{"start":18475.672,"end":18487.805,"text":"董事長你是王永慶啊 或者是王永慶啊你不要用王永慶啊 你不要 對不對借錢你不要跟我變我不是跟你變啊 我是"},{"start":18489.122,"end":18507.938,"text":"希望你講短一點就好啦因為這個題目講很久了啦一個早上都沒有講話咧阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席阿伯哥主席"},{"start":18518.465,"end":18526.793,"text":"主席總理在這裡就說你看這個我們農業部他就把所有有這個協商有開章全部印在一起"},{"start":18541.772,"end":18543.974,"text":"二五五案修正文字改組決議這案不能接受就保留"},{"start":18571.309,"end":18571.589,"text":"二五五案"},{"start":18590.672,"end":18607.822,"text":"其實我們這邊只是一個凍結而已齁那你們把這個進口雞蛋的這個廢棄方式的這個說清楚我跟委員說明齁就是我們整個報廢的大概5000多萬顆本身我們已經有招標了那招標也是用政府採購的方式去做招標"},{"start":18608.742,"end":18638.162,"text":"招標的部分總共有66家本身有資格去把這些報廢的雞蛋做成堆肥那目前為止我們大概12月17號本身會再開標這個部分你們現在都沒有標成功阿對全部都留標了所以你們這一案就是很簡單嘛你們就是如果能真的做得好你們招標能夠成功然後你們怎麼招標因為這個是我們拿那麼多工廠去買的啦那你這個案子的話你不能接受凍結的話那我們就保留啦"},{"start":18638.642,"end":18639.243,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18655.885,"end":18668.155,"text":"你這個基本上這個農地跟農地資源盤查作業等等這些土對於這個不管是說掌握農地的這個狀況是非常重要的但是因為你的狀況這個跟"},{"start":18671.717,"end":18693.163,"text":"因為你這個彙整的時間差然後跟各部會建制溝通等等導致說盤查結果不一定跟當年度的實際成果一致所以這個本來就是應該要去強化的所以我們是希望說你針對這個農地及農地資源盤查作業去精進然後這個才凍結5%"},{"start":18696.985,"end":18705.436,"text":"有一個報告之後經濟委員會有同意時的動之我們是不是可以就是說我們該組協議然後我們提一個經濟的報告"},{"start":18709.46,"end":18717.707,"text":"我跟委員報告我們特別在農航所買了兩架飛機那現在整個農地的盤查因為裡面的作物箱非常多所以我們會用我們的飛機去做航拍以外然後也會結合內政部的這些固定的變異點然後去做相關的一個勾機跟稽查"},{"start":18736.042,"end":18756.797,"text":"同樣我們有18個資料庫就是人民的資料庫我們也會做互相的交互比對所以事實上我們現在已經針對農業部相關的資料做數位化那未來我想我們會有一個非常精進的那我們希望說提一個專案報告提一個書面報告向委員會說明好啦好啦"},{"start":18759.403,"end":18759.904,"text":"水保計畫不公開"},{"start":18769.75,"end":18791.596,"text":"現在很多案子你們都不公開 到底哪邊變了怎麼樣 你們也沒辦法比對然後都黑箱啊 所以我在這裡四年叫你們公開 到現在都不公開我跟委員說明一下齁 整個水保計畫裡面的這些還在調查的部分齁 我們依法是沒有辦法說還在調查沒有被確認的時候 就把相關的資訊公開 我們一定要"},{"start":18792.276,"end":18792.736,"text":"257就保留嗎"},{"start":18818.717,"end":18822.981,"text":"那請看258改組決議沒有意見通過259改組決議沒有意見通過260通3261並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過262改組決議沒有意見通過263並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":18834.512,"end":18834.912,"text":"那這個部分"},{"start":18863.683,"end":18865.264,"text":"剪列180萬剪列40萬剪列40萬科目自行調整"},{"start":18894.927,"end":18920.388,"text":"捲列40萬年 客戶執行調整沒有建築通過那280那280是不是也可以能夠改成組結一 做文字修正那最主要是農業發展裡面 最主要是補充基金還有一些冷鏈 現在正在執行的冷鏈跟一些動保的收容的部分 那建築沒有建築 改組結一沒有建築通過 就這樣 好來"},{"start":18922.049,"end":18949.757,"text":"那281撤案282改組結議沒有見通過283改組結議沒有見通過284改組結議沒有見通過院長不好意思280啦280這個也是雞蛋的那我們知道說你如果說要去這個處理像現在的雞蛋的這個短缺的問題的話那勢必就是說你的生產力啦要能夠提升嘛"},{"start":18950.777,"end":18970.128,"text":"那這個我國每日每雞蛋﹐這個雞蛋蛋率為0.52﹐遠低於德國的等等﹐日本、以色列等等﹐這個就不再贅述了﹐所以就這部分的話﹐當然就是需要去對這個﹐蛋機的產業的轉型﹐那有很重要的這個影響"},{"start":18974.151,"end":18993.23,"text":"農業部也編列了10.5億作爲升級秦社的改建那你想說每年 預估每年可輔導66家但是光第一年就有212家申請所以基本上第一個當然就是說爲什麼會出現這樣的一個雞蛋短缺的這個問題顯見"},{"start":18995.572,"end":19009.023,"text":"政府並沒有去對這個正式這個產業轉型的這個需求那你變成是說你農業發展基金本來就是應該去做這個部分但是反而利用這個農業發展基金去採購他國的這個農產品那這個是這個本末導致也跟農發基金"},{"start":19018.01,"end":19042.135,"text":"他所設立的目的完全是不一樣來支持本土的這個 農民的這個角度是完全背道而馳的那我一開始的時候我也是注意到說為什麼農會發展基金會去用來做這個所謂的外國雞蛋的採購這個部分跟他本來設立的基金的目的完全顛倒所以才注意到這個雞蛋採購的這個部分所以我們是希望"},{"start":19043.26,"end":19058.642,"text":"要求這個農業部對這個農業發展基金設立的核心精神也就是說支持本土的這個農民這個角度然後呢要求就是說你應該要去"},{"start":19060.504,"end":19088.056,"text":"回到這個農業發展基金設立的目的﹖然後真的去用這一筆錢﹖去應用這個資金﹖這個資源﹖然後另外一個當然就是說﹖最重要的﹖你應該要去正視﹖而且要去更努力的去做這個產業的轉型﹖跟升級的這個部分﹖所以希望能夠減劣5%﹖然後回到這個基金設置的核心精神"},{"start":19088.736,"end":19088.756,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":19110.981,"end":19111.261,"text":"公務委員．答案"},{"start":19132.985,"end":19140.316,"text":"到達執行的部分然後是不是也可以請委員同意我們用主決議的方式我們會去加強相關的這些作為的一個檢視"},{"start":19142.841,"end":19146.725,"text":"保留285改組結議沒有見通過286改組結議沒有見通過287測案288改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":19163.402,"end":19172.937,"text":"二八九二八九的部分因為農民福利的相關的經費是法律義務支出的部分是不是可以建議梅雨凍結好那"},{"start":19176.112,"end":19201.833,"text":"其實是才動一萬兩千塊啦那主要就是說這個所謂的暫行條例那已經說暫行但是已經27年沒有去修正啦所以就這部分的話你是不是要去修法或者是說盤點整個相關的制度後續的發展那如果你要改組決議的話我也沒有意見只是說你應該是要去正視這個問題"},{"start":19204.876,"end":19221.233,"text":"289改組結議沒有意見通過290組結議有沒有意見沒有意見 遵照辦理好 照案通過291遵照辦理好 照案通過292建請修正相關的文字來 文章修正通過"},{"start":19224.94,"end":19231.163,"text":"293 遵照辦理 294 文字修正295 組結一 遵照辦理296 文字修正297 文字修正 298 組結一 文字修正"},{"start":19251.696,"end":19266.147,"text":"二九九組結議建起我們相關的文字修正好啊那沒有意見修正通告三零零遵照辦理等一下二九九來沒關係二九九修正寫一封就啊寫一封委員的"},{"start":19273.76,"end":19275.522,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19286.863,"end":19311.925,"text":"我要把它裁測 裁判處長會 你們贊成喔不是不是 我們做文字修正就是說文字修正啦我跟文說明喔 續產會本身齁 我們內部檢討我們真的是要去加強它的一個管理效能 跟提升它的效率所以我們在文字修正裡面就會說 我們會去加強 農業部會加強輔導然後提升它的行政效率 以利我們協助強化續產業的一個發展"},{"start":19314.491,"end":19334.118,"text":"市長會是民國89已經成立的 它是依畜牧法成立的部分那我幾年成立的89保留啊好 299保留齁好 來300有沒有意見 遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":19336.681,"end":19341.684,"text":"301 遵照辦理302 見請修正文字303 遵照辦理304 見請修正文字305 見請修正文字304的部分"},{"start":19365.175,"end":19390.927,"text":"這邊我們修正的部分是有關於就是國人才發現原來我國續產會相關談價條約工作並非農業部畜牧師負責那事實上我們農業部的畜牧師就是負責整個畜生產業所以我們把這個字把它劃掉續產會預算是有送來沒有所謂這個當然不受立法院監督"},{"start":19392.347,"end":19394.069,"text":"304 保留305 組結議建議文字修正明日建議修正通過306 遵照辦理"},{"start":19412.313,"end":19417.694,"text":"307 遵照辦理 308 遵照辦理 309 遵照辦理 310 遵照辦理 312 遵照辦理 313 遵照辦理 314 修正文字"},{"start":19448.56,"end":19469.685,"text":"那我們的修正的部分第一個部分就是我們所屬編列的經費他有物質這邊我們修正然後後面寫說我們過去曾讀後特定媒體衍生爭議那這個部分事實上我們所有的這些媒體我們都是以相關的的招標的方式去做處理的方式"},{"start":19470.964,"end":19476.386,"text":"我先不跟你說了 等一下旁邊那個主席長 審計部還有多少錢沒有讓你轉銷4500萬對不對 目前是3600萬你什麼團員黨還有議法 爭議大勒 我跟你講喔到時候他跟陳其中主委球場 怎麼沒有爭議 爭議可大勒"},{"start":19496.209,"end":19501.975,"text":"院長 有那個政府機關花了錢 審計部不讓他轉銷這個農業部 成績很高他說這個沒有爭議 爭議可大"},{"start":19507.006,"end":19507.806,"text":"代理部長你做公務員多久?"},{"start":19537.657,"end":19560.628,"text":"應該34年了我比你長啊你要找那個委員太不容易要找那些委員要偏綠的或者你能掌控的這太容易了你那一環當然一環啊還有另外喔 審計部在看我們的時候是因為科目的關係而不是說我們讀後特定的媒體的關係代理部長問一下"},{"start":19562.657,"end":19587.669,"text":"那個主席長坐在旁邊了我現在講話對他沒有禮貌你們那個以前的主席主任都不太想幹你知不知道都想調離開你知不知道欸!會議處長你不要講私底下再講很多人啦 前一陣 前幾陣都不是都很短對不對 主席長都坐多久"},{"start":19591.036,"end":19614.233,"text":"你不要跟人家閒聊啦 要怎麼跟人家閒聊阿都落台了 要不然又有人開槍 你說到他的屁屁臭文字修正 玻璃 好不好陳吉仲文出逼 已經落台了 要不然又說了 這樣就好了好 他已經下台就算了沒有沒有 這個要保留"},{"start":19619.861,"end":19623.623,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":19638.188,"end":19638.869,"text":"好 那就召喚通過"},{"start":19654.411,"end":19672.728,"text":"3、2、4 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、5 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、6 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、7 測案3、2、8 組結一做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過3、2、9 組結一有沒有意見沒有意見就照案通過"},{"start":19675.77,"end":19677.112,"text":"331剛剛那個代部長我有請問譬如說現在"},{"start":19688.095,"end":19688.736,"text":"水保局說明一下"},{"start":19714.767,"end":19720.965,"text":"目前水保開發計畫依技術規範會來做相關的一個審查它對挖防邊坡都有一些限制"},{"start":19721.328,"end":19721.648,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":19747.995,"end":19748.798,"text":"國土保安用地被破壞"},{"start":19754.907,"end":19783.605,"text":"我跟委員說明就是有關於這個波地的部分因為波度的改變那其實我們已經配合了國土規劃的農一農二農三特別是農三的部分那有一部分的縣市政府把把那個國保區把它劃成農三然後有一部分把農三劃出去所以我們也非常關注這件事情那上個月我們也開會就是怎麼樣針對波地的這些管理特別是超限利用的部分我們一定會去加強相關的一個督察"},{"start":19784.325,"end":19808.685,"text":"這個部分麻煩你們要審慎的去檢討怎麼樣包括水保計畫要公開還有剛剛提到的不然我們真的是只好去告你們獨子了不然真的沒辦法了謝偉銘提醒我一下我們有簽這個案代部長可不可以就是找個時間來討論一下看你們怎麼去"},{"start":19810.433,"end":19811.574,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":19828.234,"end":19836.215,"text":"歐巴靈 歐巴靈 那個是不是 要求選制總召在這裡嗎我們那個整個農業發展基金 你看它的情色 那個產業要升級轉型這要給他們支持啦 你給他們建立之後 頂多他們派做事情啦 應該是改為主決議 然後要求他們去遵照整個我們農業發展基金的一個精神 你說叫他們更加精進對於那個情色的改善 叫他們更加 應該把這個"},{"start":19855.759,"end":19855.859,"text":"主席"},{"start":19876.494,"end":19898.868,"text":"這補定的回答是說212家申請 那還有什麼許可等等之類的那到最後212家到最後你可輔導才66家 不到三分之一阿其實需要台灣的這個彈籠 需要去輔導或是說想要去渴望要去轉型的人從這個數字看起來就知道說這個是遠多於你要輔導66家嘛"},{"start":19900.569,"end":19929.425,"text":"所以我不認為說我沒有覺得說你這個數字這樣子的狀況那有展現出來你的態度啦那今天為什麼會面對我說實在你如果比較起來的話這是會很漏氣的德國可以德國基本上他是一個工業發達的國家嘛那這個台灣從日據時代到現在我們的農業發展我們養雞的技術等等之類的那結果"},{"start":19930.365,"end":19951.42,"text":"搞到最後德國是0.88日本是0.84那我們的這個美雞雞蛋的蛋率才0.52這是不應該的啊那你就是因為你的農業發展基金應該是要用在支持本土的農民做這個產業升級嘛"},{"start":19952.961,"end":19965.217,"text":"那你現在變成是說用這樣的方式然後再去購買國外的雞蛋變成是又本末倒置過來然後讓外國的雞蛋進來跟本土的蛋來競爭那這個是非常不對的啦"},{"start":19971.425,"end":19990.366,"text":"我拜託沒有資料就不理我,我本來是要跟你說,我們連總資,連我們自己就沒有,我們就要靜靜靜靜比較針對的是說,它的產業升級的不能夠及期,那你那個方向是要做成主決意,讓他們來做一個精進,朝你要求那個方向"},{"start":19992.278,"end":20005.208,"text":"說目的是一樣的我的目的是說希望我透過我這個案然後讓他能夠真的正式面對這個問題給他有壓力讓他可以去面對這個問題"},{"start":20013.926,"end":20029.294,"text":"現在是針對333啦 檢列八十萬年那委員已經同意檢列為十萬元科目執行調整一聽就知道 沒得說就保留不然他講不出來好來 那個333就改為"},{"start":20030.465,"end":20043.625,"text":"委員同意簡列10萬然後科目自行調整好 簡列10萬就10萬年啦改為10萬年科目自行調整齁來 通過334通商 通案處理那335凍結"},{"start":20047.089,"end":20051.831,"text":"委員已經同意改組結議組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":20075.657,"end":20103.114,"text":"這條齁"},{"start":20103.234,"end":20108.057,"text":"這條我寫351 罰金收入喔 這個不開玩笑啦這個我們遠洋醫藥三法修訂以後 罰單一罰一開就是幾百萬啦為一百控告年 一百十年 一百十一年喔"},{"start":20119.923,"end":20120.343,"text":"謝謝大家體驗農民 農漁民 謝謝"},{"start":20150.168,"end":20152.711,"text":"三五二三五二出案三五三主席有沒有人先來 照案通過"},{"start":20170.455,"end":20177.164,"text":"354改組結議沒有見通過355通商通案處理356改組結議沒有見通過357改組結議沒有見通過358改組結議沒有見通過359"},{"start":20184.774,"end":20185.174,"text":"365案委員已經同意改組決議"},{"start":20208.967,"end":20211.389,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":20237.755,"end":20258.834,"text":"請進啦請進啦這是 協商預算不是在質詢啦齁對因為 像你剛才講的 聽得懂就知道要保留好了"},{"start":20263.308,"end":20264.729,"text":"主席長主主席長通山林你們你們五個人啦對啦對啦"},{"start":20295.019,"end":20296.902,"text":"休息五分鐘"},{"start":20692.655,"end":20708.13,"text":"財政委員在這裡40幾案而已啊?沒有沒有財政委員會8幾百協調全40你不是說協調全40幾案嗎?全40而已啦協調 都協調對啦 對啦 他們都一百一百四十幾所以很快就到那個了喔?很快就到教育了喔"},{"start":20720.614,"end":20721.055,"text":"不知道有協調"},{"start":20793.919,"end":20807.027,"text":"主席長你先告還是我先告跟大家報告一下受主席長的交代"},{"start":20824.697,"end":20833.42,"text":"跟四大黨團的交代跟大家報告經各黨團協商結果113年度稅出通商總數299億元各項目刪減比例由主計總署調整"},{"start":20849.594,"end":20858.737,"text":"調整完就跟四大黨團報告一下二九九四大堡啦我們尊重四個宗教啦"},{"start":20875.146,"end":20889.333,"text":"好 來接下來跟大家報告一下接下來我們就開始來協商財政委員會的部分首先進行行政院主席總署還需要再介紹一下好 來"},{"start":20903.391,"end":20905.133,"text":"主計總署預算案"},{"start":20919.616,"end":20919.896,"text":"委員會是多少?"},{"start":20942.938,"end":20964.644,"text":"325萬維園會比較多啦維園會比較多嗎對啊好 那就並維園會好 那第二案就是文字修正那凍結並維園會決議辦理好那第三案就是改組決議沒有見通過好第四案尊重委員提案凍結 同意第四案凍結數字並維園會決議辦理並維園會啊對啊"},{"start":20969.926,"end":20970.146,"text":"第五案 凍結"},{"start":20984.925,"end":21011.217,"text":"第五案提書面報告第六案會併委員接辦提書面報告第七組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第八組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第九組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過第十組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":21013.934,"end":21039.344,"text":"第十一組決議有沒有人見?沒有端端委員提案端端通過第十二組決議端端通過再來就是監察院主管來監察院主管我們就來介紹列席的所長省紀部省紀長陳瑞敏先生已經在場好來"},{"start":21043.127,"end":21051.553,"text":"第十三案 改組決議 沒意見就通過第四案 凍結一百萬年 我們是不是併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":21074.868,"end":21096.64,"text":"財政部財政部來介紹我來介紹一下列席的首長財政部部長莊翠雲女士接下來我們就開始第19案改組決議沒有見就通過20案改組決議沒有見通過21案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":21100.362,"end":21114.867,"text":"二十二案通三通案辦理二十三案改組結議 明日會見通過二十四案通三通案辦理二十五案組織案二十六案就併委會結議辦理併委會結議辦理提出面報告通過二十七案遵照辦理"},{"start":21129.229,"end":21154.978,"text":"好 那就我講一下啦齁這案子原來是我提要減略一百萬後來改成五十萬現在改為五萬可不可不自行調整嘛 阿捏好 現在改為五萬好 那二十七案就是減略五十萬齁扣免自行調整沒有見通過二十八案改組結議沒有見通過二十九案的組結議有沒有見正照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":21159.281,"end":21159.681,"text":"二十七案出來"},{"start":21174.833,"end":21175.433,"text":"今天已經13號了 請問部長"},{"start":21204.166,"end":21208.868,"text":"中央的部分大概會在2700億左右總體的話就全國來說大概也差不多3500億左右"},{"start":21222.003,"end":21222.163,"text":"專案小組是誰"},{"start":21246.203,"end":21246.583,"text":"那你今年編的這個比現在的時增數會增加多少"},{"start":21271.241,"end":21286.767,"text":"113年是兩兆兩千九百多億那在財委會已經增加一百五十億所以大概是兩兆三千多億吧那你預估113的稅購收入會多少現在當然是我們預算數就是我們當時在編估的時候的一個預測數"},{"start":21292.328,"end":21299.651,"text":"會不會2013年又大幅超脫啊2013年編的已經比2012年來說增加了一千多億"},{"start":21304.404,"end":21323.595,"text":"每天都增加超增三四千億你聽我說真的四千五千那113年其實已經我們已經有調調參議會只有增加三千億喔?增加一百五十億啊多少?一百五十億啊一百五十億喔?我覺得應該加個零欸沒有啦 那就一年才會超過一年才會說 欸 乾脆破啊然後我們人比他少啊他媽不就拿這個標判這樣啊當然提案啊我們說最少應該增加一千億啊因為不行啊"},{"start":21334.321,"end":21336.863,"text":"我們再提案好了 增加個1500億"},{"start":21355.879,"end":21355.979,"text":"我沒這個能耐"},{"start":21371.846,"end":21377.667,"text":"何總召講錯了說聘我專家寫者那是專家寫的專家不是明年是我們聘我給你糾正明年是侯"},{"start":21397.143,"end":21425.351,"text":"法院就法院就好了 33案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 34案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 35案主決議有沒有意見 任照辦理 照案通過36案主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過 37案主決議有沒有意見 任照辦理 照案通過 38案主決議"},{"start":21427.107,"end":21450.597,"text":"責任通過39案主決議責任通過40案主決議責任通過41案主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過42案主決議沒有意見修正通過43案改主決議沒有意見通過44案改主決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":21451.357,"end":21452.619,"text":"委員會是多少?3000多萬喔?所以5% 差不多?"},{"start":21469.801,"end":21497.987,"text":"好啦那就併委員會好謝謝那46案齁動結併委員會接辦理提書面報告好不好好沒有意見就通過動結也是併委員會好啦47案改組決議沒有意見通過48案組決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過49案組決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過50案改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":21499.008,"end":21522.26,"text":"五十一案改檢列十萬年科目自行調整沒有見通過五十二案改凍結百分之五這個凍結是不是病委員會接辦理好不好好那就病委員接辦理提書面報告沒有見通過院長不好意思五十二的這個五十二案五十二案"},{"start":21523.926,"end":21539.906,"text":"五十二應該是沒有要並這個委員沒有好那就照裡面的溝通好那就凍結百分之五十提出面報告沒有意見通過五十三案改簡列十五萬年科目自行調整沒有意見通過五十四案改凍結百分之十沒有意見通過"},{"start":21540.707,"end":21566.773,"text":"五十四案 改組結議 沒意見通過五十六案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十七案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十八案 組結議 文字修正 沒意見修正通過五十九案 凍結三十萬元 那就總統知道是不是要併委員會接辦理好 併委員會接辦理 但是要提事面報告五十四案是不是要併委員會 五十四案"},{"start":21568.302,"end":21576.345,"text":"60案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過61案改主決議沒有意見通過62案撤案60案主決議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過64案改主決議沒有意見就通過"},{"start":21597.914,"end":21598.375,"text":"那沒有意見通過"},{"start":21627.728,"end":21630.029,"text":"這個凍結是不是被委員接辦了委員會凍結三千多萬好"},{"start":21655.465,"end":21656.987,"text":"7.9案凍結已併委員接辦理提書面報告"},{"start":21673.9,"end":21694.532,"text":"80案凍結已併委員接辦理提出面報告 沒有意見通過81案凍結已併委員接辦理 沒有意見通過82案檢列10萬年 沒有意見通過公務自行調整83案通山 84案通山 這兩個案就併"},{"start":21696.493,"end":21700.296,"text":"因為這個也不是只有財政部才有幾乎啊好幾個部位都有就是我們要放備援系統"},{"start":21725.5,"end":21748.217,"text":"那備援系統其實本來就有放結果他這次要加這個 增加這筆預算備援系統一副要打仗的樣子 放在美國 放在境外讓我講完讓我講完 不要緊張所以 排這個不是只有省政部 其他部位很多都有我覺得一方面"},{"start":21749.727,"end":21750.667,"text":"現在有沒有境外?還沒有吧?"},{"start":21775.303,"end":21789.87,"text":"沒有 那個還沒開始那個司法部也是有這個案子嘛好幾個部隊喔 司法部的喔你講我的喔還沒開始那個還要修法 成立一個委員會這個凍結兩百萬會不會變委員會結辦的運動委員會凍結兩億啊沒有啦 我是假的"},{"start":21799.022,"end":21814.29,"text":"他已經同意了他們文字修正我加幾個字跨境備運的部分要在中華民國進來並順便報告我們遵照修正後的內容文字修正嘛凍結並文件辦理就通過89案"},{"start":21826.442,"end":21833.433,"text":"八十九案事實上跟八十八案一樣是不是併以八十八案一併的併哪裡八十八案"},{"start":21835.31,"end":21836.351,"text":"這邊還有一個案吳斯案我剛才講的"},{"start":21866.125,"end":21885.99,"text":"五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案五四我們要維持原案"},{"start":21893.032,"end":21893.473,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21908.626,"end":21918.288,"text":"147案是要簡列300億元 大家意見怎麼樣是不是我可以說明一下在這裡的委員提案是說要簡列舉債300億元然後用稅積剩餘我想這部分是不是可以修正為並同稅入稅出審議的結果來通盤調整那個債務舉借"},{"start":21938.133,"end":21957.186,"text":"還有遺用以前年度稅計的剩餘因為這個300億把他講得太死了因為其實稅入稅出審核完以後就可以是不是繼續做這樣的修正要修正東西嘛那最後就曾總召來講來來來來那個部長到現在債務以額實際數字多少5兆8188億預算數呢預算數是6兆多6兆多多少6點多少"},{"start":21970.625,"end":21984.353,"text":"6兆5千676億6兆5千多嘛 對不對這個是財政部網站6兆5啦那還有多少特別預算是131415"},{"start":21987.419,"end":21994.888,"text":"還沒編進來的預算數就我們說一千五百多億一四加一五年度那特別預算會編列的舉借數是一五九五億"},{"start":22004.637,"end":22006.339,"text":"你先弄清楚你那個6乍5的預算數是到112還是113到113的預算數多少"},{"start":22028.937,"end":22034.559,"text":"6兆8241 68245因為蔡政府啊 浪費 亂花錢啊怎麼亂花錢啊你聽我說嘛我這個創 可以申請金氏紀錄啦"},{"start":22055.629,"end":22076.883,"text":"只是正八年拿出十三項的特別預算啦反正最多那你花更多啦結果那113年度是6821對不對對113嘛對不對那實際數是5兆8我知道啦我如果不接預算數跟實際數我就不會檢查啦不會當你們財政部的常識政治啦"},{"start":22086.8,"end":22091.061,"text":"那還有特別預算裡面13項特別預算裡面哪些還沒有邊境這個113的預算數的"},{"start":22115.199,"end":22144.353,"text":"一三六一四呢當然知道啊一四一五呢就是剛剛跟各位報告跟委員報告就是一千五百九十五億在特別預算裡面會在一一四跟一一五年舉借的是這樣的數字分配的數字是這樣子所以預算數是多少三八六九所以"},{"start":22145.663,"end":22159.849,"text":"蔡政府留下來的帳是多少?預算數啦齁我講預算數嗎?你敢憋嗎?阿會不會用?不知道阿你說你運氣好,超收就不借吧是69,850對不對?6兆9,850對不對?加進來阿但是我們也會還債阿"},{"start":22176.67,"end":22177.61,"text":"那你再算 你要還多少"},{"start":22207.027,"end":22207.608,"text":"明年也編了1150億也會還債"},{"start":22230.779,"end":22233.78,"text":"法黨派提的 包括王榮章也有 謝謝"},{"start":22261.158,"end":22279.506,"text":"我的提案給他簽名的啦你知道對對對他知道我拿給他簽名的才會過好講一下吧就讓還原事實不要講說五到八還有多一兆沒講一兆多沒講這樣我們147案怎麼處理就檢列300億剛才跟那個主席報告一下"},{"start":22287.321,"end":22295.45,"text":"他說增加移用以前年度稅據剩餘300億目前稅據剩餘只剩下30億了所以不可能有300億了"},{"start":22297.315,"end":22309.425,"text":"剩下多少?30億喔?只有30億,因為他們財政部都拿進來現在的稅收操作要等那個一,要等那個審計部審計完了以後才能夠用才能夠用啦所以現在講的說有什麼採決議的話做主決議怎麼樣?"},{"start":22322.543,"end":22351.196,"text":"好 OK那147案改組決議那沒有意見就通過148組決議有沒有意見遵照辦理好 照案通過院長不好意思算這個不好意思是我們民進黨執政黨提的這個組決議當然我們也支持那只是說這邊既然寫稅科收入5%啦其實我們按公務預算法其實為什麼不到6%我們還是希望說你們5到6啦 5到6啦不是 因為5就是下限嘛"},{"start":22352.079,"end":22359.214,"text":"那其實我們一直 其實剛才也講了其實今年都甚至還是超徵那麼多所以我們一直都覺得說其實這麼多預算"},{"start":22361.434,"end":22383.689,"text":"如果我們有超徵的話其實這個真的是先拿來還債啦那其實6%這個本來就是法律上規定的是上限是6%下限是5%嘛所以沒有錯所以是不是如果我們真的要符合財政機率我們其實是應該往6%的方向去做啊其實過去就一直都是都才一點點嘛"},{"start":22384.997,"end":22387.878,"text":"我瞭解 但是你看每一次現在這幾年 連續這幾年那個超增的這個數目"},{"start":22408.305,"end":22408.425,"text":"法定5%"},{"start":22426.741,"end":22449.107,"text":"法定是5%嘛只要多的話我們就多還嘛所以我們要先達到這個5%其實這個主權這樣寫應該是這樣他本來就要做到的他要是不做到他反而是違法的就是我們要求他我也正要問啊你寫這個主席幹嘛對啊他本來就一定要做到他要不做到他就違法了你問他你嚇到就嚇人你就做啊他本來議法要做啊"},{"start":22457.597,"end":22458.779,"text":"對 不做反而是違法的"},{"start":22466.217,"end":22482.748,"text":"這個最主要是因為稅客收入因為在我們編列的時候一定會去5%對 因為委員會有加了150億所以在這裡做這樣的一個提案的話那就要必須要增加好 那就這樣啦就這樣啦齁好 那接下來我們就金管會金管會主管的預算來"},{"start":22500.844,"end":22503.865,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主任委員黃天牧先生"},{"start":22533.306,"end":22538.411,"text":"請大家看九十六案九十六案凍結百分之二十"},{"start":22541.345,"end":22551.431,"text":"好 那就並委員結議辦理97案改組結議沒有意見通過98案改組結議沒有意見通過99案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過100案改檢列15案也沒有意見通過101案改檢列10案也沒有意見通過102案改檢列10案也沒有意見通過103案改組結議沒有意見通過104案改凍結1%提示面報告沒有意見通過"},{"start":22570.502,"end":22572.004,"text":"105案動結100萬元106案改組結議107的組結議有沒有意見"},{"start":22594.824,"end":22621.694,"text":"遵照辦理好 那召喚通過108主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過1109主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過110主決議 文字修正沒有意見就修正通過111主決議有沒有意見遵照辦理好 那沒意見召喚通過12主決議好 召喚通過113主決議遵照辦理好 召喚通過114主決議"},{"start":22624.261,"end":22625.502,"text":"好 召喚通告接下來1234通3"},{"start":22655.401,"end":22660.725,"text":"124改檢列5萬年,那免費建設照案通過124改檢列5萬年,免費建設通過第二幕銀行監理這個應該銀行局的案子吧"},{"start":22685.719,"end":22710.621,"text":"124上面那個第二幕銀行監理就827萬動605萬,這個根本動不了這個要改一下,委員會要改一下,改十分之一就好了124到123之間啦,123到124之間第二幕銀行監理找人去的薪水囉委員會動太多了,這個動十分之一,要改一下"},{"start":22713.629,"end":22727.92,"text":"原列827萬,動一個你有沒有理由,動到就沒人動那這個不要動好了,動27萬就好了沒人動的,先問清楚我發現這個有異狀委員會這是委員會委員會是誰提案那時候有誰提案的各黨團都有這類機器那時候不知道什麼情緒發生了那這個不合理啦動多少"},{"start":22742.386,"end":22761.02,"text":"營養局也當過局長啊?對你有沒有?我當過副局長副局長齁?這不可以再衝了動多少?現在?主委現在動多少?827萬、動605萬,應該動了27萬就好了啦動100啦,要不要?動100啦你也要尊重人家委員會啊,不要想那些你還以為委員會要一種化身?動50萬啦,50萬好了"},{"start":22771.067,"end":22772.788,"text":"第二幕 銀行監理 原累827萬2千元 凍結605萬4千4百元 改為50萬"},{"start":22801.305,"end":22801.965,"text":"改為凍結50萬年現在就看126案124、125"},{"start":22827.892,"end":22830.813,"text":"實例這邊我們要檢列五萬現在是126凍結10"},{"start":22849.819,"end":22851.921,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":22870.185,"end":22893.551,"text":"一三二組決議,文字修正,沒有意見就修正通過一三三因為一三三要凍結百分之二十,那委員會已經凍結一百零八萬並委員會,一般行政而已嘛沒有意見就並委員會決議辦理這誰的案子阿黃衛委員的阿黃衛委員的阿黃衛委員,再四號法制來好啦你去問啦"},{"start":22895.805,"end":22909.77,"text":"有跟他 有拜會他 但是他他沒有辦法 那個時候他說交友證明中處理好 就這樣就好了報告總召 你是說他的提案內容堅持什麼"},{"start":22918.444,"end":22944.915,"text":"那就是說因為核酷投信有人跟他檢舉那他覺得...他覺得這個...在那邊...在那邊處理了嗎?處理掉了啊?AMC是老早的啊,今年是投信啦他覺得投信那個出差的理由不正當啦沒關係啦叫我們去...去查我們就...有去查了嗎?有去查,有去查,謝謝你們裡面有沒有錄文作假的?好,133病毒人員決議辦理錄文作假阿134...我們錄文作假"},{"start":22946.717,"end":22968.936,"text":"一三四 並委員決議辦理 沒有意見通過一三五 改檢列五萬年 沒有意見通過一三六 改檢列五萬年 沒有意見通過一三七 主決議有沒有意見 照案通過一三八 主決議文書修正 沒有意見修正通過一三九 主決議文書修正 沒有意見修正通過一四零 並委員決議辦理 沒有意見通過"},{"start":22970.778,"end":22980.028,"text":"141 主決議 文字修正沒有一件就修正通過142 主決議 文字修正沒有一件就修正通過143 改檢列五萬年沒有一件通過144 主決議"},{"start":22983.466,"end":23011.24,"text":"這個部分是跟各位跟院長跟各位報告因為原提案是希望我們直接去查農業金庫但是因為當時金管會成立的時候農委會是說我們他是委託我們去查農業金庫或是農委會的信用部所以不是我們不是農業部啦我們必須要農業部指示我們我們才能去查是這個原因"},{"start":23012.06,"end":23038.378,"text":"現在農業金庫監檢誰在做檢察局在做檢察局在做但是是根據農委會委託我們金管會去檢查農業金庫那今天這個決議是叫我們金管會直接去查這個下面那個淡的那個問淡的資金我們修一下因為這個東西真的要檢查能不能說請"},{"start":23040.495,"end":23041.836,"text":"建議撤案還是要保留"},{"start":23065.104,"end":23079.007,"text":"李慧明委員的提案我們本來是想如果是加農業部委託儘管會如果是農業部加農業部因為農業部還有第二輪嘛加個農業部給農業部不是直接給特政委員就給農業部我們有文字提案的修正"},{"start":23094.134,"end":23115.582,"text":"這樣啦 到農業部再處理啦那這個案抽出來啊 農業部啦 好啊到農業部再處理啦好 要記得喔抽到 通過農業部 農業部要二輪嘛對不對農業部要踢回來就好了農業部欠揍嘛"},{"start":23117.807,"end":23118.107,"text":"結論是農業部委託政府去查"},{"start":23141.983,"end":23164.328,"text":"這一個案就是等於調整到榮譽部主管啦這樣對不對我們另行做決議啦調整到榮譽部主管裡面再做決議啦好來145案主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過146案主決議文書修正沒有意見就修正通過好147案已經過了好就這樣好休息五分鐘"},{"start":23172.13,"end":23173.23,"text":"好 休息五分鐘 換文教"},{"start":23202.1,"end":23202.32,"text":"主席"},{"start":23228.27,"end":23229.031,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23253.514,"end":23254.255,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23287.414,"end":23288.655,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23320.052,"end":23321.637,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23337.556,"end":23339.698,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23363.84,"end":23364.761,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23389.821,"end":23402.108,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":23703.991,"end":23705.212,"text":"教育文化委員會預算"},{"start":23732.659,"end":23760.701,"text":"中研院的預算我介紹一下列席的首長中研院院長因為另有要工他昨天有打電話來表達說他會請副院長來代表那現在我就介紹中研院副院長周美銀女士好那我們就看"},{"start":23762.605,"end":23783.833,"text":"第一案第一案改組協議有沒有意見沒有意見通過接下來就故宮故宮我來介紹一下這個類型的所長國立故宮博物院院長蕭忠煌先生"},{"start":23786.783,"end":23799.987,"text":"請大家看第二案第二案並委員結議辦理有沒有意見沒有意見通過第三案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過第四案改組結議沒有意見通過第五案改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":23804.704,"end":23805.985,"text":"這是不是可以併委員接辦禮來來"},{"start":23832.206,"end":23833.527,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":23875.836,"end":23900.392,"text":"明天就是最後兩組吧然後在第二輪好來可以啦我們現在進行核能會所屬的預算那我首先介紹列席的所長核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽先生"},{"start":23903.424,"end":23903.504,"text":"17.改組結議18.凍結10%19.改組結議"},{"start":23929.284,"end":23955.587,"text":"已經改組結意沒有意見通過第二十一案改組結意沒有意見通過第二十二、二十三通案處理第二十四案組結意文字修正沒有意見就修正通過二十五案組結意文字修正沒有意見也是修正通過再來換教育部"},{"start":23960.134,"end":23963.877,"text":"政府都有去溝通嗎?有,不錯"},{"start":23971.011,"end":23994.029,"text":"交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人交通比較多人"},{"start":24009.424,"end":24019.348,"text":"接下來是學商教育部主管的預算我介紹列席的所長教育部部長潘榮忠先生"},{"start":24021.601,"end":24032.731,"text":"接下來請大家看26案改增列50案沒有見通過27案改組結議沒有見通過28案屬於通算就通案處理29案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24041.069,"end":24047.473,"text":"30案改組決議沒有意見通過31案改組決議沒有意見通過32案改組決議沒有意見通過34案通刪科目我們就通案處理"},{"start":24057.892,"end":24071.922,"text":"35案改組結議沒有見通過36案改組結議沒有見通過37案改檢列20案也沒有見通過38案改組結議沒有見通過39改組結議沒有見通過40案改組結議沒有見通過41案改組結議沒有見通過42案改組結議沒有見通過43案改組結議沒有見通過44案併委員結議辦理沒有見通過45案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24087.454,"end":24090.117,"text":"46案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過47案並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過48案改組結議沒有意見通過49案"},{"start":24098.039,"end":24119.885,"text":"47案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過50案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過51案壁魯園街辦理﹖沒有意見通過52案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過53案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過54案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過55案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過56案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過57案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過58案改組結議﹖沒有意見通過"},{"start":24127.915,"end":24154.568,"text":"五十九案改組結議沒有見通過六十案改組結議沒有見通過六十一案改組結議沒有見通過六十二改組結議沒有見通過六十三改組結議沒有見通過六十四案改凍結一百萬年沒有見通過六十五案並委員結議辦理沒有見通過六十六案改組結議沒有見通過六十七案改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24157.569,"end":24162.051,"text":"68改動捷50萬也沒有見通告68案68案並委員決議辦理大家有沒有意見那不好意思那當然還是麻煩部長那這個報告還是要給我們好那提一個書面報告給這個提案人我們遵照辦理"},{"start":24186.843,"end":24193.868,"text":"68案 並委員結議辦理 動輯並委員結議辦理 提示面報告沒有意見通過69案 改組結議沒有意見通過 70案 並委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24201.499,"end":24216.875,"text":"七十一案改組結議沒有意見通過七十二案改組結議沒有意見通過七十三案改組結議沒有意見通過七十四案組結議文字修正沒有意見修正通過七十五案組結議文字修正沒有意見修正通過七十六案"},{"start":24220.509,"end":24220.93,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24234.11,"end":24234.83,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":24255.379,"end":24255.619,"text":"暫停會議暫停會議暫停會議暫停會議"},{"start":24285.868,"end":24287.93,"text":"102 主決議有做文字修正那沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":24315.697,"end":24342.413,"text":"103 主決議 證照辦理 照案通過104 主決議有文字修正 但沒有意見就修正通過105 主決議也有文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過106 也有文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過107 主決議做文字修正 委員這邊有同意"},{"start":24346.589,"end":24374.833,"text":"107有文字修正是吧對對他本來就有文字修正也跟委員報告委員已經同意改組決修正通過的意思那就照案通過啦對不對好那就照案通過108就依照修正文字就是改3個A那個嘛那個是通案就照案通過109修正後我們遵照辦理"},{"start":24376.038,"end":24394.303,"text":"11有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告12有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告13主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告14主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通告"},{"start":24405.811,"end":24430.703,"text":"115 主席有修正文字沒有意見就招人通過116 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過117 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過118 主席有修正文字沒有意見就修正通過119 沒有意見就招人通過120 沒有意見就招人通過"},{"start":24433.478,"end":24445.125,"text":"121主決議有修正文字沒有建設修正通告121文字有修正那沒有建設修正通告123主決議 中照辦理124主決議 中照辦理127改主決議還沒有到127來 再寫125125的部分增累八千萬年"},{"start":24460.631,"end":24465.255,"text":"要改成組結議有沒有意見 以後黨長會不要再建校園"},{"start":24484.132,"end":24502.44,"text":"上次我也執行執行過因為黨場會的意識形態跟教育部不一樣你不要以後不要再請這個黨場會去辦什麼活動部長我這要求合理吧總商我們了解好謝謝好1271改組結議那沒有意見通過好來128測案"},{"start":24512.779,"end":24520.806,"text":"要求改檢列10萬年免費券通過130通山歌舞通案處理好 測案130測案"},{"start":24525.131,"end":24533.593,"text":"131改組結議沒有意見通過132改組結議沒有意見通過133改組結議沒有意見通過134改組結議沒有意見通過135改組結議沒有意見通過136改組結議沒有意見通過137改組結議沒有意見通過138併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過139改組結議沒有意見通過140併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過141併委員結議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24550.097,"end":24553.318,"text":"142 改組結議沒有見通過143 併委員結議辦理沒有見通過144 改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24566.963,"end":24573.866,"text":"145改組結議沒有見通過146併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過147併委員會決議辦理沒有一見通過148併委員會決議辦理沒有一見通過149改組結議沒有見通過150併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過151併委員會決議辦理沒有見通過152改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":24588.213,"end":24598.369,"text":"153主席議正照辦理好 暫緩通過154主席議有作文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過155主席議有作文書修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過156"},{"start":24601.598,"end":24625.425,"text":"主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過157主席正照辦理好 照案通過158主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過159主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過160主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過161主席有做文書修正沒有意見就修正通過院長有一個新的161-1161-1喔對好來"},{"start":24630.404,"end":24634.367,"text":"161-1 那就通過161-1 通過162-3 就通案處理163 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過164 測案165 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過166 併委員接一半 裡面會見通過167 改組協議 167 改組協議 裡面會見通過"},{"start":24661.271,"end":24668.513,"text":"168改組協議沒有見通過169改組協議沒有見通過170並委員會回問170並委員接辦理沒有見通過171改組協議沒有見通過172改組協議沒有見通過173動議1000萬能部長解釋一下嗎"},{"start":24688.318,"end":24710.853,"text":"這個案子請教委員會有什麼跟主席來個委員報告齁這個在委員會出審的時候凍結100萬我們是不是建議可以併委員會的決議辦理173併委員會決議辦理之後那然後這個報告給我們好不好順便報告好第一個順便報告給提案件好那就照這樣通過174併委員會決議辦理如果沒有意見就通過175改凍結100萬錢這個要不要"},{"start":24717.128,"end":24718.808,"text":"177 並委員會決議178 並委員會決議辦理 179 撤案 180 通案辦理"},{"start":24746.515,"end":24768.321,"text":"主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過182 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過183 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過184 主決議有文字修正﹖沒有意見就修正通過185 改主決議﹖沒有意見通過"},{"start":24772.076,"end":24776.618,"text":"186改組協議,沒有見通過187改組協議,沒有見通過188改組協議,沒有見通過189改組協議,沒有見通過190190就是召喚通過好來介紹介紹,來不知道不知道小姐姐小姐姐"},{"start":24801.22,"end":24804.982,"text":"但是你病的時候,人家提案的人要跟他病進去啊?都是提案的啦一樣啦,要加也可以啦加一個證明中啦加柯建銘啦"},{"start":24828.51,"end":24830.551,"text":"交付不錯,交付都可以溝通,所以很順利啦"},{"start":24858.319,"end":24860.896,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":24903.776,"end":24918.376,"text":"好那我現在來進行文化部主管的協商那我來介紹列席的所長文化部部長史哲先生好那接下來我們就請大家看191案"},{"start":24920.437,"end":24929.46,"text":"並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過192改組決議沒有意見通過193改組決議沒有意見通過194並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過195改組決議沒有意見通過196並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過197並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過198改組決議沒有意見通過199並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":24945.849,"end":24954.636,"text":"200案改組協議沒有見通過201改組協議沒有見通過202改組協議沒有見通過203改組協議沒有見通過204改組協議沒有見通過205並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過206並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過207並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過208改組協議沒有見通過209並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過210並委員會協議辦理沒有見通過"},{"start":24977.213,"end":24984.757,"text":"211 並委員會決議沒有意見通過212 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過213 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過214 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過215 改組決議沒有意見通過216 改組決議沒有意見通過217 並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":25000.464,"end":25007.43,"text":"218 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過219 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過220 改組決議沒有見通過221 改組決議沒有見通過222 撤案223 改組決議沒有見通過224 改組決議沒有見通過225 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過226 改組決議沒有見通過227 並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過228 改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":25028.687,"end":25035.81,"text":"228保留229保留230保留231、232屬於通商、通案處理233主協議有沒有意見看有沒有意見"},{"start":25057.085,"end":25057.705,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":25079.744,"end":25080.545,"text":"236 主決議237 主決議238 主決議239 主決議240 主決議"},{"start":25102.694,"end":25109.355,"text":"每日間召喚通過21組結議每日間召喚通過22組結議有做文書修正每日間就修正通過23組結議每日間就召喚通過24組結議每日間召喚通過25組結議每日間召喚通過26組結議建議修正文字啦這是華市啦華市的經費大部分哪裡來"},{"start":25132.377,"end":25132.677,"text":"租金收入"},{"start":25148.908,"end":25172.049,"text":"我覺得這個華氏 照理講國防集團應該比較客觀嘛現在跟好像是三綠的子公司一樣啊 不用擋著啊常常修理我們啊 哪敢修理 都修理國民黨啊沒有沒有沒有他有修理你啊沒有沒有 我不要看了你叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他 叫他"},{"start":25179.353,"end":25205.603,"text":"這很誇張啊 三立啊 都是高層都從那個部長 現在華視是誰在管啊為什麼都是從三立的人派來啊吳延輝啊吳延輝 那個公司的董事長是不是是那我們現在暫停請吳延輝來啊不用啦不能這樣 都從三立找人來 這不行啊 部長"},{"start":25208.66,"end":25237.012,"text":"你提過之後以及我上任之後從來還沒有處理過人事啦對啊 你沒有處理啊 都是胡元輝在處理啊都從山裡找人啊 這不可以這樣子啊這1年來其實都沒有人事的禁用啦高層都沒有人事八百年前的事八百年前的事以前是國安部的啦 對不對華視本來國安部的嘛你等一下那個二輪的時候你問國安部長你給我包公啦"},{"start":25237.622,"end":25245.365,"text":"阿是不是我來建議一下保護時間我來建議一下就是說25、26、27、28、29、250阿全部保留不要保留啦阿不要浪費時間阿25、26、27、28保留好不好到28阿那個部長是"},{"start":25263.903,"end":25287.886,"text":"華氏現在還要活化資產嗎內部的一大堆 內部撿起來一大堆華氏的活化資產目前沒有都只是在研議階段對啦 你看嘛 你那個內部管理有問題啊黃國民黨實在就一直研究到現在你又扯國民黨 你扯國防部好啦等二輪的時候你問一下周部長"},{"start":25289.619,"end":25290.139,"text":"那249是不是通過"},{"start":25320.953,"end":25349.27,"text":"就只有到245、246、247、248四個案啦那249修正文字通過好不好修正文字啦四個案保留啦二輪再來講啦249修正文字啦謝謝249組結議做文字修正那就修正通過現在沒有看到文字喔有有有有好"},{"start":25350.253,"end":25351.254,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25366.533,"end":25385.506,"text":"要不要修正 召喚通過 召喚通過好來 253組結議 修正文字好 修正文通過254組結議 修正文字OK 好 修正文字 修正通過2555改組結議 沒人見通過256改組結議 沒人見通過257併委員結議辦理 沒人見通過258併委員結議辦理 沒人見通過259組結議 有沒有人見召喚通過 好 召喚通過 可以嗎"},{"start":25398.266,"end":25406.072,"text":"261 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過262 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過263 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過264 並委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過265 改組結議沒有意見通過266 組結議有沒有意見"},{"start":25420.868,"end":25421.008,"text":"267、268測案269測案"},{"start":25429.636,"end":25436.719,"text":"270改組結議沒有見通過271改組結議沒有見通過272測案273改組結議沒有見通過274測案275改組結議沒有見通過276改組結議沒有見通過277改組結議沒有見通過278改組結議沒有見通過279改組結議沒有見通過280測案好來"},{"start":25457.935,"end":25458.275,"text":"交通委員會"},{"start":25493.08,"end":25505.07,"text":"接下來我們就進行國家科學及技術委員會主管的預算首先我介紹列席的所長國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳正宗先生"},{"start":25506.667,"end":25515.352,"text":"好 那現在我們請大家看281案改組決議沒有意見通過282案改組決議沒有意見通過283案改為凍結5%沒有意見 都通過 有沒有意見沒有意見通過283 講好了 他們講好了凍結5% 講好了齁"},{"start":25535.738,"end":25544.586,"text":"284通3通案辦理285通3通案辦理286、287、288、289、290、291、292都是通3我們就通案處理293主決議文書修正沒有一些修正通過294主決議"},{"start":25560.083,"end":25564.425,"text":"沒有意見就召喚通過齁好召喚通過295組結議召喚通過好召喚通過296組結議好召喚通過297組結議好召喚通過好來到一段落好來這樣"},{"start":25897.438,"end":25918.906,"text":"交通委員會的部分首先我們就處理國家通信傳播委員會的預算介紹國家通信傳播委員會主任委員陳耀祥先生接下來請大家看第一案第一案大家有什麼意見邱總召"},{"start":25927.191,"end":25944.379,"text":"院長因為這個案件也跟主委討論過非常多次因為三立入主宗家的這個部分一直到現在也都沒有任何一個處分所以這個沒辦法對社會交代"},{"start":25952.066,"end":25980.543,"text":"頻道商跟系統商不能夠結合違反這個反媒體壟斷的紅線這是非常清楚的那從9月8號到現在已經這個三個月過去了到現在連一個處分都沒有這沒有道理啊所以就這個部分的話我們的案當然就是說雖然凍結NCC一般行政預算50%啊那這個先保就好了"},{"start":25982.798,"end":26006.89,"text":"主委要不要說明一下保留啦主委說明啦謝謝委員關心這個案子其實我們一直在討論當中我們近期應該也會做出一些相關的決定那該處罰我們還是會處罰先說明一下 謝謝那保留好不好好保留一案保留第二案"},{"start":26009.534,"end":26009.694,"text":"第四案"},{"start":26038.448,"end":26046.657,"text":"併委員的接辦禮好 媒體先弄夠院長不好意思 我第三案那邊就是併委員會處理沒問題但是那個報告要請給我們 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":26054.977,"end":26062.399,"text":"報告主席不好意思第八案委員有簽字改組決議我沒有把資料放在桌上改組決議好"},{"start":26084.366,"end":26089.928,"text":"委員有同意改懲處決議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議 改組協議"},{"start":26114.112,"end":26122.015,"text":"第十二案保留 第十一案保留 第十二案保留 第十三案也是保留嗎"},{"start":26129.783,"end":26157.839,"text":"十三案是針對這個三立持有中家百分之二十七但是呢這個三立卻僅針對這個榮勝投資百分之十五做出承諾但是另外一個百分之十二的部分那你前面一樣嘛你交代這個不一樣啊這不一樣這個剛剛的第一案是說NCC到現在還沒有做出一個決定嘛也沒有做出一個處分嘛這非常離譜啊已經三個月過去了"},{"start":26158.539,"end":26185.854,"text":"那13案的部分就是說這個12%到底去向去向到底從來沒有交代報告裡面也都完全沒有交代好好第13案的保留第14案保留保留齁保留那第15案要保留要保留哇保留滿多的第16案要保留好來請看"},{"start":26188.543,"end":26205.755,"text":"十七案保留十八案沒有見通過保留十九案沒有見通過保留十八保留十九也是保留二十案也是保留二十一案保留"},{"start":26217.384,"end":26217.664,"text":"25案保留"},{"start":26246.826,"end":26275.407,"text":"二十六案 通過我們先修正文字修正什麼文字保留好了 不要修了二十七案保留 二十八案 遵照辦理通過二十八之一 遵照辦理 二十八也遵照辦理"},{"start":26276.823,"end":26288.86,"text":"二七二八都遵照辦理二七二八都遵照辦理二十八之一介意修正文字修正文字二十八之一主結議修正文字沒有異見的修正通過"},{"start":26290.894,"end":26291.215,"text":"好,這樣好了,謝謝"},{"start":26324.477,"end":26326.638,"text":"致敬就31啊偷吃一下"},{"start":26342.936,"end":26357.106,"text":"現在是國家運輸安全調查委員會主管的預算首先我介紹列席的所長國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信德先生接下來請大家看29案29案已經溝通文字修正"},{"start":26372.202,"end":26375.406,"text":"秘密委員會秘密委員會秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密秘密"},{"start":26389.195,"end":26390.436,"text":"議員長我們是希望說這個31案他能夠"},{"start":26408.33,"end":26429.614,"text":"應該是說先保留啦因為因為這個涉及到這個太魯閣的太魯閣事故之後那檢警竟然在車廂裡面還找到這個44件疑似遺難者的遺骸嘛他經過比對還有10名好 那就保留好 31案保留32案凍結併完結辦理如何好就在那裡啊"},{"start":26439.066,"end":26462.407,"text":"三十二案委員會凍結兩百萬這個差不多五十萬而已啊討論的時候好像沒有並委員會結議因為你這個是九百六十萬嘛齁那你如果是二十分之一差不多只有四十萬而已啊四十八萬 五十萬好 那報告要另外交好不好 委員會兩百萬好"},{"start":26466.212,"end":26466.712,"text":"公共工程委員會"},{"start":26501.491,"end":26527.067,"text":"接下來我們就來協商行政院公共工程委員會主管的預算"},{"start":26529.266,"end":26540.619,"text":"首先介紹所長 行政院公共工程委員 會主任委員吳卓成先生現在請大家看 34案通案處理 35案凍結10%是不是病理委員會接辦理病理委員會接辦理"},{"start":26550.407,"end":26578.473,"text":"那36案並無接辦理沒有見通過37案並無接辦理沒有見通過院長不好意思我跟他稍微說明一下就是說37案主委希望能夠就這個中央續產會採購不適用政府採購法的這個部分是不是可以去嚴厲修正這個政府採購法的主體範圍因為這個部分的話這個爭議非常大那為什麼他可以不用適用到這個政府採購法"},{"start":26580.034,"end":26605.197,"text":"那可能這個真的也是要去商榷的 有商榷的餘地啊37案主委 我贊成喔因為有一些財團法人尤其是他的經費來自政府機關或者他的執行長 總經理 董事長是政府派的那基本上他是政府一樣"},{"start":26606.098,"end":26633.235,"text":"所以這些人或這些機構基本上要適用政府採購法你不要清楚你也常常在政府機關服務嘛派到對的人他就依規定給你辦派到不好的人亂搞一通欸所以我贊成啊剛剛邱顯智總召講的這些準政府機構也要適用政府採購法你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":26635.863,"end":26652.2,"text":"這個部分可能相關的部會再來檢討我補充一下 主委 我這個案裡面我有比較那個誰怎麼樣你在照什麼 錄什麼影啊 那一個"},{"start":26656.087,"end":26658.528,"text":"就是說這個我有提出說比較歐盟的公共採購指令那因為歐盟的這個"},{"start":26683.945,"end":26709.723,"text":"指令裡面規定說到底什麼是叫做屬於這個受公法管制的法人的這個屬於採購主體那定義裡面非常明確他有三種一種就是說第一個是吸以滿足公益為其目的而設立不具工業或商業的性質二是說其具有法人格三是其財務大部分由國家地方政府或其他受公法管制的法人所支持的"},{"start":26710.964,"end":26732.159,"text":"按照歐盟採購指令的規定 中央續產會無疑會是採購主體 這沒有問題因為他百分之百接受政府的支持所以就這部分的話 依照整個相關的規定不管是說行政法人法37條 第二項規定 基本上是有"},{"start":26733.5,"end":26753.06,"text":"這個研議的必要啦針對這一類型的符合這一類型的這種法人財團法人或等等之類的這個要不要回答啊啊主委啊這樣38案勒到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":26755.905,"end":26783.271,"text":"好那38案呢就凍結10%沒有意見沒有意見喔建議本會有建議修正文字那建議併委員會決議好那38案併委員會決議辦理修正文字有沒有意見沒有意見報告也要給我們提示文報告給提案員好那39案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":26786.149,"end":26811.684,"text":"事實案 凍結五十萬年 並委員會接辦理 如何不用啦 不用變不用變 不用變 不要講啦 不要變好 那就凍結五十萬年 沒有意見通過事實一案 並委員會接辦理 沒有意見通過事實二案 並委員會接辦理 沒有意見通過事實四案 這個凍結六萬年 是不是並委員會接辦理好好不好"},{"start":26814.721,"end":26835.427,"text":"委員凍結三百萬阿 阿你做個六萬嘛不要併阿 好 就這樣子啦 維持這樣子好啦好啦好啦 凍結六萬年 沒違憲通過 四十五案凍五萬年 沒違憲通過 四十六案主決議 有沒有違憲"},{"start":26837.041,"end":26860.636,"text":"46案本會有建議修正文字好那就文字修正那修正通過好47案主席決議遵照辦理好那就照案通過好好來好謝謝囉那個主委主委接下來就政府"},{"start":26863.404,"end":26863.664,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26912.906,"end":26933.632,"text":"我們繼續現在進行交通部主管的部分首先介紹所長交通部部長王國才先生接下來請大家看第48案48案陣列兩議員有沒有意見"},{"start":26937.277,"end":26943.425,"text":"跟副院長報告,我們因為委員會已經增加3億元了,我們建議並委員會決議辦理委員會辦公室去溝通,只是因為他沒簽名"},{"start":26957.061,"end":26978.796,"text":"好 併委員會決議辦理48案併委員會決議辦理49案也是併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過50案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過51案併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過52案通三科目我們就通案辦理好那53案凍結十分之一我們併委員會決議辦理好那就併委員會決議辦理54案"},{"start":26985.956,"end":27013.495,"text":"併委員接辦理好那明日見通過五十五案通商科目我們就通案處理好那五十六案檢列一百二十萬元檢列二十萬就好啦二十萬就好啦郭董過也是建議改為凍結凍結十分之一提書面報告五十萬乾脆把它了結掉啦檢列五十萬可以啦好檢列五十萬好"},{"start":27015.885,"end":27043.266,"text":"沒有意見通過好來五十七案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過五十八案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過五十九案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過六十案通山科目通案處理六十一案並委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過六十二案凍結五百萬那是不是並委員會決議辦理好"},{"start":27045.373,"end":27059.451,"text":"好沒有人先通過那63案並委員接辦理如果沒有人先通過64案並委員接辦理沒有人先通過65案並委員接辦理沒有人先通過好幾個都要交報告"},{"start":27063.215,"end":27088.02,"text":"好 沒問題那這個陳委員他提到就是626364希望提順便報告來66案我看也是病委會接辦理病委會接辦理沒有意見通過67案病委會接辦理沒有意見通過68案病委會接辦理沒有意見通過"},{"start":27090.161,"end":27102.906,"text":"69案已併委員會接辦,你們要不要接?委員會是...是怎麼樣?委員會等於凍結了1億,1億3啦好,那就併委員會,那報告給我你們13億被凍結了1%咧好,那就...那就照案了嗎?照委員會"},{"start":27113.708,"end":27130.219,"text":"趙委員會就是併委員會接一半禮69案也併委員會接一半禮若沒有意見通過70案也併委員會接一半禮沒有意見通過71案也併委員會接一半禮沒有意見通過院長這個有意見因為71案這個涉及到是說當然規則規定機車在無標限的時候必須行駛外側車道但是就是說這個"},{"start":27142.887,"end":27148.695,"text":"道路交通標誌標線號誌設置規則第178條他並沒有一個沒有明定一個標準那191條有關這個帶轉區的劃設標準也沒有一個明確的規範"},{"start":27158.428,"end":27184.907,"text":"所以就這個部分的話其實也凸顯出說它造成很多的問題甚至在這個帶轉區的時候位置不當更變成一個帶撞區這非常危險那所以就這個部分的話這個我們希望能夠簡列這個路徵業務預算一百萬那凍結路徵業務百萬之十啦那希望政府提出一個這一個修法的方案"},{"start":27185.708,"end":27187.632,"text":"然後經教務委員會同意後使得動之"},{"start":27188.686,"end":27216.275,"text":"你要三預算又要多一預算三個月提的出來嗎有沒有修法就是要讓他正視這個問題因為這長期以來已經是一個很嚴重的我們提書面報告是不是凍結就好因為這也是一個很重要的一些業務尤其委員關心的大碗是不是就十分之一我們三個月內提報告這樣好不好凍結十分就是百分之十"},{"start":27218.576,"end":27218.716,"text":"要怎麼樣"},{"start":27238.473,"end":27240.857,"text":"同意凍結 凍十分之一不要變委員會喔我要凍 凍十分之一阿"},{"start":27251.872,"end":27275.643,"text":"但是我不要併委員會啊那是要凍結一個一千四百多萬的十分之一啦那就是我在確認一下我怕講錯啦編案七十一案就凍結十分之一那提報告事務院報告都是陸珍業務嘛大家都十分之一你這個也是陸珍業務啊一樣的啊"},{"start":27281.212,"end":27304.813,"text":"對阿但是我不要併動啦那你要另外動對阿另外動阿跳動那他就交這個書面報告阿我已經沒有簡列了阿因為你這個已經是一個長期的這個問題而且你這個狀況的話是放任這個機車主婦在高度的危險中嘛併動也可以提阿"},{"start":27306.144,"end":27306.264,"text":"邱總召"},{"start":27335.501,"end":27340.946,"text":"七十二案是不是跟七十一案你一個人起兩個案都是同一都一樣"},{"start":27343.618,"end":27362.623,"text":"七十二案這個報告會不一樣啊七十二案的狀況是希望說因為現在的這個砂石車齁或者是說這一個營業車輛的問題非常嚴重嘛你併動啦然後提 中央提報告就好了嘛一樣啊這你這才一千十你這樣兩個這樣就兩"},{"start":27365.51,"end":27391.862,"text":"七十二案我希望說他去參照日本的法規嘛那提出就是說針對這個客域業者也好因為台灣因為現在的狀況就是說對於這些營業的車輛他並沒有科與他的連坐的處罰不是啊 現在就是說你那個這邊十分之一 凍結十分之一下面還有好多個十分之一啦如果這樣凍的話他整個就沒有辦法沒有辦法開頭啦"},{"start":27394.583,"end":27397.525,"text":"7272案的凍結案就秉委員會接一半禮73案的秉委員會接一半禮如何改組決議"},{"start":27420.165,"end":27420.525,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":27445.154,"end":27455.614,"text":"七十二案我問一下部長七十二案要叫你三個月參照日本法規提出,那最後做得到嗎?"},{"start":27456.758,"end":27476.528,"text":"我們就提書面報告不一定按照那個不一定按照我們自己有自己的主體嘛對對對不一定要日有時候一定要照日本的如果連這個日本的這個日車制我在質詢的時候都已經研究我想說連這種交通部都沒辦法提出來的話可以去亂拼這個簡單的事情他大概派員去日本去考察"},{"start":27482.11,"end":27487.235,"text":"運營所也有調查 不然運營所運輸安救所在幹嘛那你幹嘛一直在替他著想他都已經答應了交通部每年花的國家多少錢啊"},{"start":27502.609,"end":27503.19,"text":"三個月竟然沒辦法"},{"start":27528.492,"end":27553.646,"text":"了解到說日本的制度現在管理砂石車是什麼制度嗎他當然知道我現在不是說完全炒一炒 問題是誰要炒好 誰要蓋 總要好不是啊 那你日本的制度比較好日本的砂石車遊覽車的管理比台灣好這是不爭的事實他的這個收穫的死亡率比台灣可能少三分之一欸"},{"start":27554.526,"end":27562.951,"text":"我們一批他又多三倍 又不低欸冷靜冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜 冷靜"},{"start":27583.883,"end":27585.164,"text":"你這個是來亂的好不好 你是來亂的吧"},{"start":27604.98,"end":27605.26,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27628.241,"end":27634.725,"text":"院長這不用休息啊你來亂好不好院長平平理人家交通部長已經答應了現在已經到了七十三案了他還反過來說七十二案的時候參考日本的這個制度"},{"start":27653.336,"end":27655.377,"text":"七十五案是我們這邊提的 七十五案能按照我們的嗎"},{"start":27682.216,"end":27685.138,"text":"70案就保留,76案並委員結辦禮入"},{"start":27714.093,"end":27734.507,"text":"好 併 77案 併文傑辦理書喔院長 這個讓部長表示一下意見啦不要說都是我們在講那部長針對77案 那你的意見是什麼77案是談那個計車交通環境的問題嗎是啊那個 計車的問題齁就是說車道分配還是計安全沒有77啦 現在77"},{"start":27743.041,"end":27744.242,"text":"市長也非常支持行川縣退縮"},{"start":27765.063,"end":27781.042,"text":"那現在我的案是說你現在就是說我們的罰單很多然後呢也有很多的這個執法的這個開罰增加但是就是說希望這個罰金可以用來強化到案"},{"start":27782.895,"end":27796.191,"text":"你現在的罰單一年多少一千四百萬張那大概兩百多億但是現在問題在哪裡問題是說這些罰單拿到這兩百多億中央 地方"},{"start":27797.589,"end":27817.015,"text":"絕大多數都沒有用在改善交通那許多還在用在增加更多的測速器所以我的案其實非常簡單就是說希望能夠交通部在6個月內接受了不要再講了我又沒有同意要併動"},{"start":27826.049,"end":27843.405,"text":"我現在的做法就是說希望能夠在6個月內完成道路安全標準跟對地方政府苛責的制度的擬定然後你去增加說擬定增加交通違規罰款然後用於道安改善設備跟工程的比例辦法"},{"start":27845.852,"end":27872.883,"text":"這個很合理嘛我們處罰的目的是為了改善交通啊所以你這兩百多億拿到之後並不是為了要對人民再開更多的罰單嘛因為你開更多的罰單最近這幾年來這個罰單的數目一直增加一直增加破千萬張現在已經一千四百萬張每個台灣人每年都快要得到一張罰單了所以你的做法應該是說是不是能夠把這一些交通違規的划緩"},{"start":27873.743,"end":27893.114,"text":"用於道安的改善設備跟工程﹖定一個比例辦法你去一個書面報告因為我們現在的道安﹖比如說現在通過的行人交通安全設施條例﹖一年就400億﹖一年就100億﹖跟這個罰款差不多"},{"start":27893.954,"end":27894.214,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27918.448,"end":27935.007,"text":"所以我就是希望說他能夠針對這個滑款的部分能夠用在改善交通上面我當然知道你說那個那這個很多的特級學校也一直在爭取嘛那這個也是肯定的態度嘛但是問題就是說那個滑"},{"start":27937.221,"end":27964.646,"text":"這個罰單所收的這些錢不應該變成是一種類似稅金的性質啊如果是這樣的話就是這個牽涉到很多 包括地方政府這個我們還是回到預算啦齁回到預算 77案你們現在要怎麼樣是要併入人的結議辦理還是要那院長要保留啦77案保留那78案"},{"start":27966.24,"end":27972.605,"text":"要保留嗎其實78案的狀況我是希望說因為現在這個所謂的就是說很多的這個案件基本上都是"},{"start":27990.199,"end":27992.22,"text":"不但造成行車行人的風險﹖"},{"start":28016.047,"end":28035.585,"text":"那部長就是說希望針對這個所謂的這個違規的這個熱點那可以去針對這一些違規的熱點去邀集地方政府也好或是說這一些零售業者物流車的業者跟司機那你去商討說如何去改善"},{"start":28036.266,"end":28056.518,"text":"那究竟是說要劃設一個臨庭的卸貨區域因為這主要很多都是沒有維護艇的問題那你沒有維護艇的問題那你去苛責這些物流車的司機或者是說去對這些物流業者再去苛責那也沒辦法所以就是說應該是要劃設"},{"start":28058.519,"end":28061.622,"text":"到底是要怎麼樣的方式去解決﹖那甚至是﹖"},{"start":28080.611,"end":28092.519,"text":"77案保留78案就併委員結議辦理提出面報告79案委員辦公室已經同意改為主決議員我們有送主決議員在79案主決議那沒有意見通過"},{"start":28097.822,"end":28120.28,"text":"那80案 凍結2000萬 去併委員會決議辦理如果80案也是一樣 經過委員辦公室同意改回決議那沒有見通告 81案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告82案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告83案併委員會決議辦理 沒有見通告84 85通3 我們就通案處理86案縣長84是併委員會決議辦理"},{"start":28126.969,"end":28149.394,"text":"那是通案?那是通案啊?那還是通山的科目?要交報告喔?通山欸交報告是說也要交報告?好 那就你說84案交報告是吧?好 那就提一個書面報告來"},{"start":28155.105,"end":28172.254,"text":"委員長8686這個就是中華快遞年年爆發罷工的爭議那交通部的這個這個中華郵政公司派在這個中華快遞的這個董事基本上到底有沒有善盡這一個"},{"start":28174.309,"end":28175.049,"text":"中華快遞公司團體協商"},{"start":28202.797,"end":28203.118,"text":"這件我們要保留"},{"start":28221.118,"end":28237.783,"text":"86案保留87案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過88案是不是並委員會接辦理也經過委員辦公室同意改組決議組決議那沒有意見通過89案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過90案並委員會接辦理沒有意見通過91案通商通案處理92案"},{"start":28246.606,"end":28257.333,"text":"90號案凍結因為前面已經凍結了10分之1等於二十三億啦齁這邊前面凍結二十三億所以90號案是這個凍結是併委員會接辦你如何好"},{"start":28262.998,"end":28266.501,"text":"併委員接辦理9393通案處理93併委員接辦理沒有見通過95案"},{"start":28281.857,"end":28282.057,"text":"104改成主決議"},{"start":28307.668,"end":28309.769,"text":"107組結議有沒有意見交通部 遵照辦理108組結議遵照辦理109組結議遵照辦理110組結議遵照辦理"},{"start":28337.294,"end":28337.975,"text":"文字修正修正通過"},{"start":28362.554,"end":28364.035,"text":"116主席會議117主席會議118主席會議119主席會議118主席會議"},{"start":28390.577,"end":28392.078,"text":"提出書面報告文字修正通過"},{"start":28415.834,"end":28441.341,"text":"一二三組結議 遵照辦理好 召喚通過一二四組結議 也是改文字專案改書面好 那就修正通過一二五組結議 也是專案改書面文字修正好 也是修正通過一二六組結議 遵照辦理召喚通過一二七組結議 也是建議改文字專案改書面那就修正通過了"},{"start":28443.119,"end":28448.143,"text":"文字修正改為書面報告有文字修正我們就修正通過"},{"start":28470.999,"end":28495.028,"text":"責任通過137主席有文字修正建議有送資料在好 那就文字修正通過138主席遵照辦理好 責任通過139主席遵照辦理好 責任通過140主席遵照辦理責任通過141主席遵照辦理責任通過142主席遵照辦理好 責任通過143主席遵照辦理好 責任通過144主席遵照辦理好 責任通過145主席遵照辦理"},{"start":28498.169,"end":28498.369,"text":"文字修正通過"},{"start":28526.582,"end":28528.723,"text":"155主決議154主決議155主決議156主決議157主決議158主決議159主決議"},{"start":28553.473,"end":28556.236,"text":"就專案報告啦好不好沒問題啦怎麼樣就這個啦部長專案報告沒問題啦"},{"start":28580.522,"end":28601.329,"text":"今天早上已經有提到包括院 院跟交通部都支持所以不用提什麼專案報告就會支持所以支持喔那就提書面 改書面是吧那都結印了是吧律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲律憲�"},{"start":28611.116,"end":28618.879,"text":"提出編報告本案就是組結議就通過文書修正通過接下來就交通部署官有關於161案161案並委員會結議辦理162案組結議有沒有人見"},{"start":28636.533,"end":28654.418,"text":"好 照案通過 163 主決議有文字修正 那沒人見修正通過再來是 164 凍結一千萬元 是不是並委員會決議辦理改主決議好 改主決議 改主決議 那沒人見通過 165 並委員會決議辦理 沒人見通過再來是 再來是 166 案"},{"start":28663.2,"end":28663.881,"text":"166 改組決議167 通案辦理168 測案169"},{"start":28678.724,"end":28681.945,"text":"171改組結議沒有見通過172改組結議沒有見通過173並委員結辦裡沒有見通過174並委員結辦裡沒有見通過175測案"},{"start":28699.281,"end":28702.003,"text":"176 凍結100萬年改組決議177 併文接辦禮178 併文接辦禮179 改組決議180凍結五分之一"},{"start":28725.299,"end":28726.78,"text":"國道7號臨時改那個路線所以很多居民那個"},{"start":28761.481,"end":28775.924,"text":"請問交通部這邊有研擬妥善的方案嗎180是民宿的案子不是知道我順便問一下國企這個案子已經有溝通過了180就是維持"},{"start":28786.192,"end":28786.452,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":28811.344,"end":28828.191,"text":"國區的確在過程中因應工程需要做一些局部的調整這部分我們的高工局會跟地方政府討論過這樣的方案是正數比較少的方案會後再提供資料給委員長"},{"start":28832.133,"end":28832.233,"text":"主席"},{"start":28848.934,"end":28850.214,"text":"委員同意改組決議沒有意見通過"},{"start":28872.593,"end":28885.939,"text":"182182182案並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過183就撤案184就並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過185就改組結議,沒有意見通過186並委員會接一半禮,沒有意見通過187組結議,那照樣通過188組結議那個文字修改專案改書來組結議,文字修正通過"},{"start":28901.223,"end":28923.12,"text":"那189 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過190 組結議 照樣通過191 組結議 那有文字修改 那就修正通過192 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過193 組結議有文字修正 那就修正通過接下來就194案"},{"start":28925.282,"end":28925.482,"text":"201凍結十分之一"},{"start":28954.076,"end":28980.662,"text":"順照辦理好 那就 召喚通 召喚通過啦齁好沒有沒有沒有 不願會沒有動動少一點嘛 這行政 行政之一無所謂可以啦基本行政會議用而已啦多少 哪裡哪裡 哪裡來 找人去啦那救黨部啊好好 那就那個5%好"},{"start":28985.009,"end":29008.968,"text":"206 齁"},{"start":29009.268,"end":29035.901,"text":"這是這樣齁就是說在最近的這一個竹科公司的員工旅遊齁那在南部發生重大車禍造成事實的這一個遊覽車的事故啦齁結果去年在公路局的這一個遊覽車的評鑑竟然拿到假等啦齁那事實上這個司機的超速的問題非常嚴重齁紀錄也非常多所以就這部分的話我現在"},{"start":29036.721,"end":29055.976,"text":"比較在意的是說你這個評鑑的項目非常的草率那日本的評鑑項目事實上是一目了然包括就是說當一個公司的承辦人他要去選擇遊覽公司的時候你只要點日本的網站那你就可以看到包括"},{"start":29056.957,"end":29057.657,"text":"那還好吧"},{"start":29081.368,"end":29092.333,"text":"邀請專家跟民間代表建立一個獨立的遊覽車安全評鑑認證制度強化安全資訊公開等等提出一個書面報告"},{"start":29097.554,"end":29101.657,"text":"206案 病人接一半禮 提書面報告207案 凍結一億 會輸病人接一半禮好不好"},{"start":29125.286,"end":29128.267,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29128.267,"end":29129.528,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29129.528,"end":29131.728,"text":"董事長,那個改不是已經改好了嗎?"},{"start":29147.589,"end":29152.392,"text":"207跟208啦那你們不然就多動一點吧然後併在一起吧動結數一樣啦"},{"start":29175.748,"end":29198.322,"text":"董結束併委員會嘛,那報告另外一題嘛,這樣做個結議嘛因為委員會他已經凍結十分之一,就等於凍結八億多啦八億九啦委員會已經凍滿肚的沒關係啊,反正這因為是那個,就兩個都是一樣啦好不好,兩個併在一起凍五百啦,就這樣"},{"start":29200.319,"end":29202.08,"text":"請交通部還有公務局局長這邊盡快來協調一下好嗎"},{"start":29221.01,"end":29221.15,"text":"請他們盡快協調"},{"start":29238.297,"end":29240.578,"text":"這不要一直抹黑啦 柯董"},{"start":29264.221,"end":29286.691,"text":"這個人家講話的意思是插嘴本來就是應該要讓部長表示意見啊 人家是交通專家2100併委員接辦禮 沒有意見通過211那凍結5000萬元 我們就併委員接辦禮好不好他這邊已經先溝通就是200萬而已嘛 那就是凍200萬凍結200萬是吧 好"},{"start":29291.755,"end":29292.075,"text":"委員會見通告"},{"start":29305.482,"end":29326.168,"text":"213這個部分的話是希望說公總這邊針對這個客貨運業者那他的這個高峰業者要提出這個輔導改善的這個措施那這樣才是一個辦法基本上就是說你應該是有一個苛責機制調查輔導列管苛責機制等等之類的"},{"start":29330.157,"end":29339.14,"text":"那沒有關係啦 凍結束是要併委員會就好了嘛好 怎麼樣 併委員會啦那213 這個凍結束併委員會接一半禮入喔 免疫線通過 214214的部分就是說 這個隔熱紙的部分齁 那應該 這個國際標準早就已經存在這麼久了嘛"},{"start":29359.403,"end":29380.736,"text":"那公總一直到現在你還沒有去做納管那希望這公路局在兩個月內就格二指納管提出具體的檢測方法還有宣導期跟實施的期程你去一個順便報告好那這樣的話這個是要這"},{"start":29385.695,"end":29392.218,"text":"提書面報告,但是並委員結一半禮,如何?214並委員結一半禮,但是要提書面報告給提案人215並委員結一半禮,好不好?215是並委員結一半禮"},{"start":29411.852,"end":29412.032,"text":"結論就好了 講結論"},{"start":29441.37,"end":29444.972,"text":"這個就是2030的電動車,我們從113到119分7年,就是要把燃油車改成電動車我們現在就按照7年到119把它汰換完畢,就是公車的部分"},{"start":29460.644,"end":29469.911,"text":"現在進展怎麼樣最主要你要對預算他要凍結五分之一你有沒有意見好像你都沒有意見改組決議好不好改組決議改組決議凍少一點好不好請示範這樣要費用嗎好不好凍少一點"},{"start":29479.684,"end":29480.565,"text":"委員改為主決議員"},{"start":29505.158,"end":29505.779,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29528.393,"end":29529.414,"text":"文字有修正 黨團已經蓋章"},{"start":29558.957,"end":29559.28,"text":"修正通過"},{"start":29564.054,"end":29574.603,"text":"228 照案通過229 文字有修正 黨團也蓋章2230 文字有修正 黨團已經蓋章231 文字修正 黨團已經蓋章232 照案通過233 文字有修正 沒有意見就修正通過2331"},{"start":29590.711,"end":29590.851,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29619.275,"end":29622.096,"text":"234 通3 235 檢列100萬年 236 並委員會決議 237 主決議 238 建議文字修正"},{"start":29650.553,"end":29661.503,"text":"就修正,那就修正通過那239主席那也是一樣,建議文字修正那沒有意見修正通過,240主席我看一下啊好,修正的,修正的結束了"},{"start":29674.784,"end":29680.027,"text":"238暗記刪除,然後進度報告改進度書面報告239審議檢討後面加書面兩個字"},{"start":29700.39,"end":29701.29,"text":"239就這樣了240組協議有沒有見建議改書面報告"},{"start":29730.081,"end":29752.029,"text":"主決議文字修正提書面報告21黨團已經同意修正文字修正文字修正通過再來22遵照辦理詐騙通過就凍結十分之一23遵照辦理"},{"start":29758.797,"end":29769.785,"text":"同一個案子齁他就凍結凍結百分之二十喔病案凍結十分之一病案但是都要交報告是一定交好那就二十二二十三合併病案凍結百分之十這樣可以嗎"},{"start":29787.699,"end":29788.299,"text":"停一下 停一下"},{"start":29816.511,"end":29820.001,"text":"他說都要保留 所有部位都要保留 今天就這樣完"},{"start":29867.861,"end":29868.381,"text":"交通委員會結束"},{"start":29895.134,"end":29897.095,"text":"明天九點繼續開會就剩下兩個委員會"},{"start":29925.339,"end":29951.125,"text":"明天有兩個委員會 一個是司法及法處委員會 一個是社會福利及衛生環境委員會院長對不起 那個能不能再麻煩您一下就是我們有一些併委員會的決議的還有一些通商案 那因為我們有寫一些東西那是不是就是說這些案子雖然是併了委員會或者是通商 但是能宣告一下就是說他們也還是要把書面報告提給大家好不好"},{"start":29953.68,"end":29956.321,"text":"總裁會召集"},{"start":29994.617,"end":30000.721,"text":"所以院長明天是九點半嗎九點好就九點"},{"start":30004.324,"end":30005.224,"text":"副總裁副總裁"},{"start":30032.568,"end":30042.108,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30074.798,"end":30083.805,"text":"主席"},{"start":30101.878,"end":30121.836,"text":"院長剛剛就說這個農業部會有第二輪那是否也是明天一起是不是農業部說會有第二輪還是說會有第二輪那也是明天是不是"},{"start":30135.111,"end":30161.108,"text":"第二輪了解是是是好了解好OK好好好對好好的"},{"start":30178.716,"end":30200.683,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30231.781,"end":30233.902,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30252.897,"end":30253.137,"text":"蘇瑞發展部"},{"start":30264.218,"end":30282.447,"text":"事由發展部所屬的預算首先介紹列席的所長事由發展部唐鳳部長接下來我們就開始看26案並委員節辦理有意見嗎沒有意見通過247案通案辦理28並委員節辦理沒有意見通過249"},{"start":30292.748,"end":30293.248,"text":"徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億徵列2億"},{"start":30331.969,"end":30351.315,"text":"249、266、269、270、274、276、280、285、293、362、325、330、331、336趕快去溝通吧有關你賴世保委員所提的案我們都暫時保留好不好那今天就先處理明天你再如果說有方便的話明天的溝通我們第二輪就把它處理掉好不好好來那249就是保留"},{"start":30353.642,"end":30355.023,"text":"251、252、253、254、255、256、257、258通案處理"},{"start":30382.662,"end":30412.183,"text":"二五九改凍結百分之三沒有見之通過二六零併委員會結一半離沒有見通過然後二六一是不是併委員會結一半離委員長等一下這很奇怪這個二五零你說併委員會是吧委員會是什麼委員是凍結委辦會十分之一委辦會這個都是通案嘛"},{"start":30422.784,"end":30436.868,"text":"他有檢列也有凍結啦檢列是國外營運會嘛對啊 那凍結 就是說我們這個凍結的數目齁就併在那裡面就在十分之一裡面啦 就包含在裡面"},{"start":30440.471,"end":30440.491,"text":"好來"},{"start":30469.558,"end":30472.325,"text":"我們就已經到261261凍結十分之一是不是併委員的接辦禮因為"},{"start":30478.47,"end":30484.175,"text":"通過262 十分之一 並委員會決議辦理263 並委員會決議辦理 沒見通過264 並委員會決議辦理 沒見通過264 改組決議 264 改組決議"},{"start":30500.709,"end":30504.41,"text":"265通3266通3我們就通案處理265改組決議265改組決議265改組決議266通3我們就通案處理267"},{"start":30529.81,"end":30530.27,"text":"前述檢列該組結議"},{"start":30545.141,"end":30560.428,"text":"委員是凍結,這邊是檢列就是昨天問的,今天我們收到行政院的文說核定有改組織,你要讓我知道一下因為你這裡都沒送,人家普通都會...市長今天核定了,這個就測案了嘛來,這樣,267組喔測案吧"},{"start":30573.988,"end":30574.749,"text":"268凍結1200萬元269減劣3000萬元270也是保留"},{"start":30601.28,"end":30605.048,"text":"明天是不是請他來一下好不好報告七一 稟委員接辦你沒有見通過"},{"start":30607.199,"end":30609.76,"text":"272 凍結十分之一 273 凍結百分之十 273 凍結百分之十"},{"start":30634.214,"end":30635.354,"text":"274 檢列500萬就是賴斯堡委員的 我們就保留"},{"start":30665.905,"end":30678.195,"text":"275、276通3我們就通案處理276已經保留賴司保委員的保留再來就是277凍結1億元這怎麼處理並委員會這是並委員會決議辦車案"},{"start":30693.618,"end":30719.394,"text":"好 報七八並委員會接辦你有沒有意見通過報七九 邱總召有檢列五千萬年及凍結十分之一來 要保留好不好 要檢列是太大的保留可以嗎 保留 保留是可以還好是正常同意來 報八零 檢列 這個保留 這個是保留"},{"start":30720.543,"end":30727.367,"text":"281 測案282 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過283 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過284 併委員會結議辦理沒有意見通過285 286 改組結議沒有意見通過287 凍結十分之三"},{"start":30747.622,"end":30759.791,"text":"那議會委員會已經凍結十分之一啦好那怎麼樣併委員會併委員會如何可以啊好那是併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過那288改組決議沒有意見通過289併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過那290併委員會決議辦理沒有意見通過291改組決議沒有意見通過292"},{"start":30775.643,"end":30779.388,"text":"邱總召292保留293檢列也是保留在委員的294凍結十分之一並委員會"},{"start":30792.5,"end":30797.641,"text":"296 改組結議 沒有意見通過297 改組結議 沒有意見通過298 改組結議 沒有意見通過299 組結議 有沒有意見"},{"start":30819.124,"end":30819.324,"text":"暫停會議暫停會議"},{"start":30842.917,"end":30849.338,"text":"306 主決議 307 主決議 308 主決議 309 主決議 310 主決議有做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過311 主決議 311 有一個新修正的版本311 主決議要做文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":30870.177,"end":30881.181,"text":"在312的組結議有做文書修正沒有見就修正通過313組結議召喚通過314組結議有修正文書修改那文書修改就修正通過再來就是315來組結議那沒有見通過"},{"start":30897.725,"end":30905.63,"text":"316 併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過317 凍結十分之三 前面已經凍結兩千萬這個是賴司法委員的 我們就保留318 是不是併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過319 併委員結辦禮 沒有見通過320 改組結議 沒有見通過"},{"start":30928.38,"end":30945.13,"text":"3.2.1 凍結500 已經改了是吧3.2.1 已經改處決意 但沒有一件通過3.2.2 3.2.3 都是通商 就通案處理3.2.2 是類似保援 那這個要保留啦3.2.4 測案是吧"},{"start":30961.199,"end":30983.917,"text":"三二五跟三二六賴思寶委員的這兩案就保留賴思寶這通案我們要保留三二五三二六那是通三的啦前面也有賴思寶的通案"},{"start":30992.141,"end":31007.212,"text":"還有322也是一樣的所以賴氏堡委員如果碰到通商科目我看就先保留在第二輪做一個處理啦沒關係啦明天才叫他一定要來不然我們就自己處理不管他總統結果怎麼樣叫他自己來"},{"start":31017.64,"end":31021.402,"text":"明天先去溝通沒有溝通我們就來處理啦"},{"start":31044.375,"end":31053.177,"text":"改組結議改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":31072.248,"end":31074.71,"text":"兵委員會兵委員會兵委員會結議辦理333"},{"start":31089.008,"end":31108.753,"text":"跟主席報告333有跟委員辦公室有同意他大概就是覺得還是要刪一百萬然後科目自行調整刪一百萬元科目自行調整那沒有見通過334改組結議334已經改組結議沒有見通過335減六兩議 凍結一議"},{"start":31118.11,"end":31125.577,"text":"來組結議好了有沒有改這個跟偉茂是有說明他覺得併委員會動10%這樣子併委員會已經有動10%併委員會併委員會結議辦理就對了是併委員會結議辦理好來336這個是保留好來337改動5%說明改動5%"},{"start":31145.893,"end":31151.415,"text":"併委員會已經動10%了所以就是併委員會的模式併委員會接辦理"},{"start":31162.028,"end":31190.573,"text":"好 再 欸 完不完結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了 結束了"},{"start":31199.154,"end":31199.274,"text":"主席"},{"start":31225.63,"end":31233.957,"text":"我們是不是行政院所屬的先離開?好,來,請,你們可以先離開我怕他們想到事情要跟我說了來,四大黨團有什麼話現在要..."},{"start":31252.769,"end":31262.876,"text":"明天9點保留在世保保留才40萬沒有啦 要去溝通 溝通完我不會處理阿你沒有人保留 你怎麼處理 抱歉因為經濟他也保留很久沒有人去溝通 我怎麼處理"},{"start":31293.53,"end":31295.651,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":31313.618,"end":31319.929,"text":"好明天九點繼續開會今天的會議到此為時現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"149020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d65f283f6c67b2e0e5ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03226e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"11:34:16 - 11:43:39","影片長度":"00:09:23","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":563,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:43:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:34:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（11時34分）謝謝主席，主席，我請一下許部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好，我們今天討論勞工退休金條例，我在這邊有一個問題想要請問你個人的看法，大概有一部分人，因為現在勞工自提的退休金是不可以自選操作標的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["楊委員曜：部長在這個議題上，你的看法是覺得可以還是不可以？你比較傾向主張哪一個？現在是不行嘛？"],["許部長銘春：現在是不行……"],["楊委員曜：像私校退撫基金它大概已經可以了嘛？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫是有……"],["楊委員曜：對，那勞工退休金有關勞工自提的部分，部長個人的看法是覺得？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，如果是個人的看法，因為我覺得退休金是勞工老年退休生活的一個保障，我們都希望它是完整的、不會有風險的，然後能夠穩健的獲利，不會因為有風險而導致他的退休金最後可能會完全受到損害，所以在這種情況下，我其實會……因為如果是自選的話，他必須自擔風險，自提的部分如果自選，他必須自擔風險，我是會比較擔心勞工這一部分如果當遇到像去年股債同時下跌兩、三成的時候，其實對勞工的損害是滿大的。所以在這種情況下，我認為這個部分我目前都會比較保守一點啦！"],["楊委員曜：部長的看法倒是跟我一致，因為我覺得勞工自提退休金，看起來日後是必須要來填補勞保年金的給付不足，共同建構勞工退休以後的生活保障，可是這又遇到一個問題，就是自提的部分其實是屬於他的財產，對不對？限制勞工自行選擇投資標的，這個本身就跟財產所有有衝突。","第二個，最重要的就是剛剛部長講的如何穩健獲利，因為自提的退休金假如一直放著，獲利不足，其實它根本趕不上通貨膨脹，我相信這是個很大的問題，特別是在勞保年金給付沒有辦法增加的情況下，我個人一直很關注勞退的部分，所以剛剛部長有講到穩健獲利，我們怎麼讓它穩健獲利？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然這幾年勞動基金的投資收益都還不錯，平均大概都有4.6。"],["楊委員曜：4.6%。"],["許部長銘春：對，4.6%，我們也就是慎選投資標的，不管是自操或委外，其實在整個績效上都有做一些要求，就是務必要讓我們勞工的老本能夠有一個好的收益，這個部分我們當然會持續來努力。"],["楊委員曜：因為是委由你們來操作，有最低獲利擔保，對不對？就是兩年的定期……"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員，現在不管固提或自提，一定是保證獲利的，最少都有銀行2年定存利率的獲利保證，所以就是……現在當然是因為政府的限制，自提的部分沒有辦法去自選，但是我同時也保證他一定是獲利啦，就不會讓他的退休金短少。"],["楊委員曜：對，這個當然還需要做更深的研究跟廣泛的討論啦！因為我剛剛講過了，自提的部分其實還是勞工自己的錢嘛！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們勞動部態度上也是持開放的態度，傾聽各界的意見，但是我們基本上還是要站在保護勞工的立場。"],["楊委員曜：對，因為這個跟勞保給付其實是有相關聯的。","接下來，因為這次可能是本屆最後一次勞動部到委員會來，所以我還是必須要講一些數據，我一直覺得廣大勞工退休生活的保障其實是政府的責任，且再過幾年，問題馬上就會出現，我也知道改革的困難，因為勞工本來收入就低，要提高保費的話，阻力也大，而保費不增加，要怎麼提高、健全整個機制？這是政府要非常有智慧去面對，並且有勇氣去解決的。","我大概提供幾個數字給部長，就知道勞保年金的問題有多嚴重，像在澎湖這樣相對一般受薪階級薪資沒有那麼高的地方，其實我對於勞工的退休生活還滿憂心的。2022年勞工整體領到的給付大概是1萬8,294元，同一年臺北市最低生活費已經到了1萬8,682元，也就是說，勞工平均可以得到的年金給付，已經低於臺北市的最低生活費了，而且這種情況會隨著通貨膨脹越來越嚴重，有六成勞工年金給付低於2萬元。在這種情況下，我們還每天擔心勞保基金什麼時候會破產，這才是最大的問題。","部長，我想我在這一屆已經沒有能力也沒有機會可以幫廣大的勞工把這個問題處理好，但我還是希望至少將政府負擔最終給付責任的條文儘速入法，其實就算沒入法，還是長年在撥補，政府不大可能放任讓勞保倒；但入法的好處就是可以安定超過1,000萬勞工的心，讓他在工作時不用擔心退休後日子要怎麼過，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我們一起努力。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢。委員楊曜所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.81971875,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.40159375,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.67909375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.594093750000003,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.93971875,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":29.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.781593750000003,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.32909375,"end":38.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.13784375,"end":45.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.10784375,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.81659375,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.900968750000004,"end":49.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.21721875,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.790968750000005,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.18284375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":60.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.54784375,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.54721875,"end":76.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.00159375,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.46971875,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.87034375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.38909375,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.91159375000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.86909375,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":94.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.29034375,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":105.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.66846875,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.53721875000001,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.25846875,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.13096875000001,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.21471875,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.61846875,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.76096875000002,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.91659375,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":144.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.66659375,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.41721875000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":154.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.74534375000002,"end":154.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.63971875000001,"end":156.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.76596875,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.99721875,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.74784375000002,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.64596875,"end":173.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.06284375,"end":174.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.32846875,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.45409375,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.10284375,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"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11:34:07","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":440,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:34:07+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:26:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時26分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，您好。我們時間有限，我想問一下部長您有出現在最新這一本所有臺灣的爸爸媽媽幾乎都會看的雜誌，不知道您自己有沒有印象？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就是有關友善家庭職場，我相信這個在勞動部的部分應該有非常多事情可以協助企業端、協助勞工端這邊做更多的改進。我想問一下部長，您在雜誌裡面提到各國勞動力人數的年增率是1.2%，其中在日本跟香港跟臺灣卻呈現負成長，關於這個缺工的問題或者是勞工本身在企業端工作的很多訴求，不知道部長您這邊在接受完這個雜誌的訪問之後，您認為友善家庭職場在勞動部這邊，如果您快速想到，您覺得您還能做些什麼事情協助勞工在勞動現場可以覺得更友善地被對待，然後也願意生養下一代？部長您覺得從勞動部的角度您可以做哪些事情？"],["許部長銘春：就是在職場能夠兼顧育兒，也就是在育兒環境這個部分還要再加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，那我就直接跟部長分享，在這個雜誌裡面，其實他們在3月份到5月份的時候先做了一個調查，年輕世代的爸爸媽媽對於自己到職場上實現自我的專長、實現自我的天份這件事情，其實大家對於工作是有些想像跟企圖心的，可是一旦把這個企圖心切回到職場現實的時候，部長，我先考您一下，您覺得年輕的爸媽他們在意職場的哪些因素，會讓他們更願意留在職場，或者是在職場實踐自我當中還願意生育下一代？您覺得年輕世代的爸媽在意什麼樣的事情？"],["許部長銘春：大概是在托兒部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，一個是托兒，那還有呢？"],["許部長銘春：還有就是可能希望更有彈性的能夠去兼顧家庭。"],["陳委員培瑜：彈性的兼顧家庭。還有呢？好，那沒關係，部長，我跟您報告，第一個是彈性工時，占65%的爸爸媽媽最在意有沒有辦法有彈性工時。第二個如同您說的，企業有沒有機會設置臨托或者是幼兒園。第三個是居家上班，也就是在疫情之後遠距工作的可能性。這三個比例是年輕世代的爸媽最在意的事情。可是我想要請部長看一下這個投影片的上端，其實大部分的父親跟母親都有想要工作的企圖心，你看喔，在兼職工作或是全職工作的比例都很高，對嗎？全職育兒的比例其實不高，也就是說，這個世代年輕的爸媽他們對於自己在職場上是有些想像的，可是勞動部有沒有機會提供這樣的職場環境給予勞工們？部長，您覺得呢？"],["許部長銘春：就是說可能有些職場可以提供彈性，有些職場可能比較不容易，我覺得我們應該先從可以提供彈性工時的這些職場鼓勵雇主能夠來落實。"],["陳委員培瑜：那勞動部的角度呢？我們來看一下，其實勞動部一直有一個工作生活平衡獎，也就是說勞動部在這個議題上並不是沒有作為，可是我們來看一下這個評審項目包含這些，關於生活平衡獎，勞動部的生活平衡獎裡面有一個彈性工作獎，可能是彈性工時或者是彈性工作地點，也就是說，其實勞動部可能在幾年前就意識到這個事情是重要的，或者是友善家庭的部分，勞動部在這個獎項裡面有一個單獨的項目叫做友善家庭。可是我們來看勞動部相關的獎勵、鼓勵措施當中，對於企業端實質上更積極的鼓勵或者是互動溝通，以往都是比較被動的，他就是被動接受企業的報名，報名之後他們得到的可能就是一個獎牌，然後有1萬塊的相關獎品，也不是獎金。我想要問一下，如果勞動部自己都已經辦了相關的獎項跟比賽，而且是每一年都做喔！不是只有做1、2年，其實勞動部在這件事情上是有一些想法跟態度的，可是可不可以更加積極去回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求，部長您自己的觀點怎麼看這件事情？"],["許部長銘春：其實我們辦這個獎項是讓這些算是幸福的企業有一些友善勞工的作為，能夠讓更多的企業來學習，以他們做一個標竿，所以獎牌、獎金是一個honer，但是沒辦法給他們很多的獎金。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果我們不談獎牌、獎金，部長您覺得在勞動部的角度還可以做更多什麼事情？我先提供一個數字，這也是勞動部對這個雜誌說的，勞動部統計臺灣受僱者在2020年平均年總工時為2,008個小時，在39個主要國家中排名第六，甚至我們高於南韓的1,904個小時，高於日本的1,626個小時，也就是說勞動部你們其實已經知道要做相關的事情，不管是透過鼓勵措施或是相關企業對話，可是可不可以更積極的回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求？","我再跟部長報告最後一個議題，其實今年諾貝爾獎的得主也提到了，女性並沒有真的想要離開職場，而是整個職場的環境不友善，讓年輕女性他們必須要離開；而且部長您在受訪裡面也提到，臺灣有一個很大量的離職潮是在30歲以後，部長您一定知道原因嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：30歲以後就是要開始步入家庭、照顧小孩，可是如果都落在女性身上，其實臺灣高學歷女性的比率跟他們在求學階段能力表現並不輸男性。部長您身為女性的部長，您自己怎麼看待這件事情？可不可以在勞動部內有更積極、更多的討論跟相關的規劃措施？不管是透過獎勵、透過更多跟職場的對話，讓勞工在現場真的可以感受到，而不是只有民間雜誌辦了這樣的票選，或者是像這樣的獎勵。但是勞動部可能在這個議題上，其實還不夠跟進民間的需求。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，這部分的確勞動部還要再有更積極的作為，這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論，因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位……"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["許部長銘春：我們會讓企業能夠發展更多友善的措施，然後政府會有一些鼓勵、獎勵讓他們願意來做，這個部分我會責成相關業務單位來……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們真的非常希望勞動部在後續可以做出更積極的事情，我相信部長你在這個雜誌受訪時，你的心裡面一定也是在意這個事情，而且你也願意認同這個價值。以上謝謝部長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.93659375,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.825968750000001,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.54159375,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.65534375,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.49471875,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.782843750000005,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.71659375,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.43721875,"end":73.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.09534375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.62221875,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.39409375000001,"end":83.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.13596875,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.54909375000001,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.72596875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.16721875,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.61409375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.57596875000002,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.68471875,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.33846875,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.89909375000002,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.89846875,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.76221875000002,"end":190.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.15721875,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.65471875,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.98284375,"end":202.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.45909375000002,"end":208.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":210.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.10346875000002,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.48721875,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.57409375,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.79721875,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.87721875000003,"end":283.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.23971875,"end":287.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.22221875,"end":291.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.36096875000004,"end":292.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.60971875,"end":292.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.60534375000003,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.96346875,"end":297.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.02659375,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.85721875,"end":302.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":304.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.09721875,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.75909375000003,"end":363.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.61971875,"end":363.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.85596875000005,"end":380.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.96721875000003,"end":397.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.72409375,"end":398.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.50034375,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.68534375,"end":408.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.32159375000003,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.81909375000004,"end":413.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.88221875000005,"end":412.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.37971875000005,"end":416.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.82659375000003,"end":419.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.10034375000004,"end":421.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.70346875,"end":427.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":399.238,"end":425.368,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個部分的確勞動部還要再更有積極的作為那這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位那我們會來怎麼樣來讓企業能夠發展更多有效的措施然後政府又有一些鼓勵、獎勵來讓他們願意來做那這個部分我想我會來責成"},{"start":426.508,"end":428.089,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議"}]}},{"id":"149018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6b042a0f393a6d701ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:12:32 - 11:26:39","影片長度":"00:14:07","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":847,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:26:39+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:12:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時12分）請許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我今天還是想要跟勞動部討論關於工安的問題，你覺得我們臺灣的工安，目前的預警、預防做得怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：還要再加油啦！"],["洪委員申翰：還要再加油，是不是？部長，我們最近看到還是發生很多起嚴重的工安意外，我請部長看一下下面這幾則新聞。這是昨天發生在捷運信義線東延段施工的工安意外，目前有一名工人墜落命危；再下面一起，這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的工安意外，這個意外事件跟臺中中捷的事件很像，都是吊車斷裂掉落，這次砸在公車亭，但是這個事件還好，人跑得快，沒有被砸傷。部長，這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭的工安事故，其實現在擔心的不只是勞工，連附近的居民都很擔心，部長，你可以體會跟瞭解嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故，有鷹架或是這些起重機的吊臂突然掉下來，你走在附近，你會不會有點擔心？會嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["洪委員申翰：會喔，好。大家都很擔心，可是現在看到這麼多的新聞，我的辦公室也會接到民眾的電話，大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件，到底政府有沒有去檢查？檢查完以後有沒有改善？有沒有去罰？其實大家都在問這個問題喔。"],["許部長銘春：都有。"],["洪委員申翰：所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導，也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上，更擔心會不會發生就像臺中林淑雅老師的這個事件。部長，你會不會想預防這些悲劇？"],["許部長銘春：當然。"],["洪委員申翰：如果可以建立預警機制的話，你會不會想建立？"],["許部長銘春：當然要建立。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我相信你的回答是這樣。那現在臺灣的建築工地這麼多，勞動部可能也不一定有量能一一去進行勞檢，所以我自己覺得這裡面有一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單建立起來，甚至對外揭露可能很重要，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實我在去年4月曾經開了一場記者會，這場記者會的主題叫做「沒有死傷的工安事故就沒人管」，在這場記者會上面我有要求勞動部應該彙整並公開工安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄，在今年5月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部，當時勞動部的李俊俋次長也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統，把勞檢相關的處理紀錄放在這個系統中，可以供大家查詢，其核心的概念就是希望讓大家可以知道高風險的場域、高風險的職場、高風險的地方，。部長，我認為這個要求其實真的並不高，只要有發生意外，勞動部有去勞檢也做出處分，其實就讓大家知道相關的處分嘛！我們不是偷偷摸摸的處分，對不對？尤其是這個工安事件如果是火災、爆炸、化學品洩漏、鷹架倒塌、外牆倒塌，就算沒有死傷，但是這應該都是職安高風險的地方，部長同意嗎？"],["許部長銘春：同意。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷，但是發生這種事情，也是高風險的地方啊！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員申翰：沒有死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊！就像剛才講的在公車亭的人，可能只是上面的人跑得快啊！部長，後來勞動部做了什麼？在我做了這個要求以後，部長知道勞動部後來做了什麼嗎？署長知不知道？"],["許部長銘春：我們有開會，署長可以說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：有找大家來討論。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，後來職安署創了一個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」，媒體有報導的才放上來，但是請部長看一下，從這些內容，其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡，也不知道是哪一個廠商，後續到底發生什麼或者有沒有改善什麼，我們在這個「媒體報導重大災害訊息」裡面都看不到。所以如果民眾看完之後回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面，因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點，所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件。我在這邊提醒勞動部一件事情，就是現在我們看到你們的這個系統，甚至是直接貼上來，把職災受害者的姓名直接公布出來，然後公布一年多了都沒有拿掉。部長，我們發現這個系統是該公布的沒公布，不該公布的卻把它公布在上面，已經一年多了，都沒有拿下來，反而是不該被揭露的受害者姓名被放在上面。部長，你覺得這個系統需不需要改善？"],["許部長銘春：委員，這個要改善，像這個系統做這樣的揭露，我覺得是很不OK的。我所理解的是他們在明年1月1日馬上會有一個系統上線，就是我們勞動部有一個違反勞動法令事業單位查詢系統，有關職安衛的部分會增加發生日期、發生地的欄位，到時候就是如果有發生職災，我們的檢查還有處分等部分都會在這邊揭露。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你知不知道其實你們有開了一個研商會議，這個研商會議所公布的範圍限縮在職安法第三十七條第三項，也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡面，只有發生勞工死亡或重傷才要公布發生日期跟發生地點，我不清楚你知不知道這件事情，就是把它限縮了！所以我的意思是什麼？我更簡單地跟大家說，像我們現在已經發生的、已經去勞檢、裁罰的這個中捷事件，還有這次林口吊車吊臂斷裂的事件，按照現在職安法第三十七條第三項裡面，對不起，按照你們召開的研商會議的紀錄，都是不用公開的喔！因為裡面沒有勞工死亡，對不起，中捷事件死亡的是乘客林淑雅　老師，不是勞工死亡，所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容，像中捷事件，像剛才說的這個林口吊車吊臂斷裂事件，都是不用公開的喔！許部長，我們既然說要公開，為什麼不把事情給做到位？如果大家上去查發現，明明這麼嚴重的中捷事件，結果上面居然沒有紀錄，不用公開，民眾的感受是什麼？部長，你知不知道現在我們要公布的範圍被嚴重限縮，只有勞工死亡才要公開，所以中捷事故是不用公開的。"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得職安署要再整個檢討一下，這件事情委員也關心好幾次，我覺得我們要做就把它做好，該揭露就揭露啦！"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我知道職安署會說這是法規問題，我要說這件事情其實早在環境部還在環保署的時候，也就是它還是署的時候就都已經做到了，在他們的系統裡面，其實裁處的日期、裁處的公司名稱、違反的日期都一清二楚，我甚至都曾經建議過勞動部，你甚至都可以把……假如它有改善，你也可以把它放到網路上面，我也沒意見，它做不好的地方，我們公布，它後來有改善，以後的結果你也可以公布，我也都沒意見，不要讓這個廠商覺得好像犯錯一件事情，我就被貼標籤一輩子，你說我已經改善了，你們去查，它改善了，你要公布，我也沒意見，但把事情給揭露就是預警機制啊！這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來。我認為現在職安署不乾不脆，甚至自己限縮，為什麼環保署做得到的事情勞動部做不到？署長，為什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們職安法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露，我想或許明年職安法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來執行，我想這是我們會先處理的。至於委員這兩個月一直督導我們、push我們，非常感謝，因為揭露資訊，讓民眾有來查的空間，我們也認為是非常核心的重點。至於說是全部都揭露，我們有一些法規的部分，我個人覺得還是要有法規授權比較得當。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，對你這個說法我要挑戰，這是你們做的行政處分欸，你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的？你們是偷偷摸摸嗎？你們自己去勞檢有處罰，這是你們做的行政處分，為什麼不能揭露？只要把必要的個資資訊隱蔽起來，什麼地方不能揭露？你告訴我，這是你們的行政處分，我沒有要去公布他們的商業機密啊！你只要把個資隱蔽起來，為什麼不能揭露？你給我一個理由。署長，這跟法規授權……對不起，這是你們的行政處分欸，你們去勞檢以後，只是因為沒有勞工死亡，為什麼這樣就不能揭露？我聽不懂，我知道有法規授權更好，但我完全聽不懂，為什麼你們的行政處分不能讓社會知道，難道現在勞動部網站上所有公開的行政處分，都是有法規，都一條一條授權才可以嗎？我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道。"],["許部長銘春：委員，沒關係，我請職安署好好的把這件事情做好，相關如果是有牽涉到他們疑慮的法規範的部分，我會請法務司這邊來幫忙，我們務必要把預警的一些機制建立好。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我要提醒一件事情，之前我們在修職安法的時候，我們其實也討論過揭露的問題，當時職安署跟大家的說法都是說不要寫太細啦！結果現在不要寫太細變成你們不揭露的理由了。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，職安法是102年修的。"],["洪委員申翰：不是，我是說當時我們在討論相關事情的時候，我們都說我們不要寫太細，我現在的意思是說，署長，這些是可以揭露的事情，沒有不行，只是你要做或不做，我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞，有法規當然更好。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["洪委員申翰：但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像中捷這麼離譜的事情，居然在上面完全看不到，像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊臂的事情，大家看不到，我覺得這是大家沒辦法接受的事情。部長，大概多久時間可以把這個系統給處理好？不是只是推出一個系統來而已，而是把該公開的，而且是真正能夠達到預警效果的，我要求這件事已經要求很久，我不是要求為了公開而公開，我不是為了這個事情，我不是要求形式上面你給我一個交代，我們是希望有達到預警效果的，真正把高風險的地方可以公開出來。","我都說了，你要說它已經有改善，你把它改善的狀況也公開出來，我都不反對，你讓大家知道這個雇主或者是這個老闆他有做了努力，我也不反對，但現在不是啊！我覺得現在像擠牙膏一樣，一點、一點、一點，可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的效果啊！部長，你覺得多久時間可以把這事情給做好？"],["鄒署長子廉：金額的部分確實要請法務司來幫忙……"],["許部長銘春：講一個時間嘛。"],["鄒署長子廉：2個月我們來處理。"],["洪委員申翰：2個月是不是？好，部長、署長，2個月的時間好不好？我同意2個月的時間，但我們就把它做到位好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["洪委員申翰：不要再找理由牽拖了，我已經質詢很多次了，但每一次都是這樣擠牙膏一點、一點的，坦白說，我是很失望的，可以嗎？麻煩部長好好督導這個事情。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。有請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 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案。"},{"start":70.7,"end":97.567,"text":"這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂掉落砸在公車亭但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉"},{"start":99.271,"end":122.426,"text":"連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁,好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁"},{"start":124.065,"end":152.816,"text":"我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心這沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件"},{"start":154.451,"end":166.499,"text":"不然這些悲劇你會不會想預防當然如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立當然要建立不然我相信你的回答是這樣"},{"start":169.985,"end":185.266,"text":"現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意"},{"start":187.16,"end":215.289,"text":"在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統"},{"start":216.553,"end":219.514,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":235.458,"end":250.985,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":261.26,"end":283.398,"text":"沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息"},{"start":290.784,"end":308.616,"text":"將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到"},{"start":311.69,"end":338.501,"text":"所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔"},{"start":339.611,"end":358.525,"text":"所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善"},{"start":360.207,"end":371.614,"text":"議員,這個要改善。這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK。所以我所理解的是他們目前"},{"start":372.967,"end":398.473,"text":"在明年1月1日馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安位的部分會增加有發生日期發生地的這個欄位那大概這個部分應該就是到時候就是說我們有這個職災的我們也檢查還有那個"},{"start":403.315,"end":430.727,"text":"處分的部分都會在這邊揭露。部長你知不知道其實你們開了一個研商會議這個研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把他限縮了所以我的意思是什麼更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的"},{"start":432.435,"end":459.955,"text":"已經去勞檢裁罰的終結的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡"},{"start":461.934,"end":484.233,"text":"所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸"},{"start":487.591,"end":512.527,"text":"明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得"},{"start":513.294,"end":520.86,"text":"這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了"},{"start":524.441,"end":551.627,"text":"我想說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如他有改善你也可以把他放到網路上面去我也沒意見"},{"start":553.713,"end":570.527,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14"},{"start":573.169,"end":584.288,"text":"這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?"},{"start":589.123,"end":611.528,"text":"我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直督導我們push我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點"},{"start":612.188,"end":638.76,"text":"那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來"},{"start":642.753,"end":653.001,"text":"這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露"},{"start":672.574,"end":693.308,"text":"我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都有一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道那個沒關係我請治安署這邊齁把這件事情"},{"start":701.718,"end":721.431,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一、委員溫玉霞等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第"},{"start":729.994,"end":748.803,"text":"報告委員責任法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情沒有不行只是你要做或不做我覺得不用拿法規來搪塞有法規當然更好"},{"start":750.834,"end":761.926,"text":"但我認為社會大眾沒辦法接受像終結這麼離譜的事情居然在上面完全看不到像剛才說林口的這個吊車吊幣的事情大家看不到我覺得這大家沒辦法接受的事情是不是可以部長"},{"start":765.395,"end":768.417,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":796.797,"end":820.537,"text":"你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛"},{"start":823.753,"end":824.434,"text":"兩月我們要處理好了。"}]}},{"id":"149017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d63c5fcf9d8669f912ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322c53c89e6150c5b455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱泰源","委員發言時間":"11:01:26 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11:12:24","影片長度":"00:10:58","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":658,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:12:24+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T11:01:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["邱委員泰源：（11時1分）謝謝召委。主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["邱委員泰源：部長，有關今天的主題，我們都很關心勞工的福利，很多委員也都提了很多的見解，我想對於我們未來在修正不管是政策或規定等各方面應該有大的幫助，我都很願意跟大家一起來共同努力。有一些另外的主題可能我們以前也關心，現在我再請教一下。","我想勞動力的穩定還是未來臺灣要一直去注意的事情，這樣才能跟人比拚嘛！看起來勞動力來源問題的解決應該有四個方向啦，這個我們以前有討論過嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員泰源：第一個是生育率提高，這個還有在拚嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有，這個我們現在就是各部會努力啦，國家跟你一起養，希望能提高生育率。"],["邱委員泰源：好。第二個就是促進中高齡及高齡就業，這個等一下我再請教。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員泰源：再來是怎麼樣讓可能想要或者動機有沒有都可以的勞動人口來彌補我們現在職場上所需要的，第四個則是剛剛林為洲委員也有提到的擔心及各方面等等，這個我們都會謹慎來進行，我想這幾個方向是大家過去一直在討論跟努力的。","我們來看一下資料，資料顯示與其他國家相比，我們的退休平均年齡好像比較早，不曉得你們那邊有沒有相關統計？再回來工作的就業率好像也比較低，部長，你們從過去到現在這段時間的打拚有沒有碰到什麼困難？"],["許部長銘春：困難就是說，第一個我是覺得以雇主的刻板印象，對於中高齡、高齡的就業者，或者是二度就業的婦女，會認為他們在體力或各方面可能會不足，所以這個部分我們要花很多時間去做溝通，其實這些人都還是壯世代啦，希望大家能夠讓這些壯世代的人有工作的機會，我們現在覺得比較困難的是這個部分。至於其他在技能或專業上有不足的，這個倒是沒有問題，勞動部的職訓資源都會全力來幫忙。","另外，我們也有給雇主獎助、給勞工獎勵，希望他們能夠重返職場或續留職場，目的就是希望能夠讓整個中高齡、高齡者等壯世代的勞參率能夠提高。"],["邱委員泰源：好，其實以前為了長照的照顧，我們大概20年前曾經在雲林那邊推動，讓那些65歲、70歲等還沒有到75歲的退休者來照顧75歲以上的老人啦，不過那個時候是用志工的方式啦，也真的在媒介喔，很努力在媒介，後來可能也沒有延續，但這也是創造了一些模式啦，後續可能不一定有延續，但總是有創造一些模式出來。他山之石可以攻錯，我個人的感覺啦，聽說日本好像有滿多年紀比較大的人都出來做那種他們可能做得了的工作，甚至是在餐飲業的服務。"],["許部長銘春：對，服務業的部分。"],["邱委員泰源：當然可能很多人希望在餐飲業服務的人是比較年輕一點，但是有些餐飲我覺得只要有人來把它處理好就好了。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員泰源：這個部分我們能不能去瞭解一下日本是怎麼做的，或是其他國家是怎麼做的？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分當然就是說，可能傳統上他們就比較善用這些中高齡、高齡等銀髮族的人力啦，我們現在也在鼓勵雇主，看看是不是可以參考日本的經驗，因為我們現在勞動力短缺嘛，希望這些雇主能夠，畢竟中高齡、壯世代是一個很重要的勞動力來源啊，其實這些人的服務也會讓我們覺得比較有溫度、比較親切，所以我們現在也是鼓勵雇主來進用啦，也獎勵這些中高齡、高齡者進到像剛剛委員所講的餐飲業的服務職場，現在也有一些成果啦，譬如說有些新開的飯店，我們就會去幫它媒合，就是我們進場去幫它媒合這些中高齡或高齡者，讓他們在勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速地去獲得填補。"],["邱委員泰源：好，我想我們有在做，當然就要一直持續去檢討成果，看怎麼樣有精進的策略嘛，這可能要不斷的努力啦！"],["許部長銘春：對、對。"],["邱委員泰源：這樣才能改變文化，改變大家的心態嘛。當然在體能方面也是一個問題，但是這個部分我相信只要媒合適當的……"],["許部長銘春：體能部分當然沒有問題，我們也在跟雇主溝通，其實我們可以有專家進去幫它做職務再設計，讓整個流程更適合這些壯世代的工作者。再來就是我們有輔具，輔具的部分是只要聘用這些壯世代勞工，每人每年有10萬塊的輔具費用可以來補助，這個都可以減輕他們在工作上譬如說要搬重或者各種不便，這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓雇主知道。"],["邱委員泰源：我們以前在推這個計畫、法案的時候，當然我們也擔心這可能會搶到年輕人的位置，可是畢竟還是有很多人是不能陷在那個困境的，像沒錢的怎麼辦？很多啊，像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊，我想國家、政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊，但總是要創造它的價值，不能說就卡死在那裡，當然這可能要靠我們的智慧嘛，我想對於這個部分，很多政策不是不能做，而是怎麼把它做得好，這個部分可能……"],["許部長銘春：是，我們現在其實是整體缺工啦，所以不會有那種去搶青年人工作的問題。"],["邱委員泰源：部長，我請教你，你覺得我們現在的年輕人都跑去哪邊工作？好像很多行業都缺人力，年輕人都在家裡，還是他們家裡有錢都不用出來工作？你們有沒有去統計一下？"],["許部長銘春：其實很多都到服務業、批發零售業那邊去啦。"],["邱委員泰源：批發零售業？有需要那麼多人喔？你們有去瞭解現在的年輕人都跑去哪裡工作嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是，就是……"],["邱委員泰源：還是現在年輕人的心態是覺得沒關係，我們以前求個職業就是想要求穩定、能夠長久，是不是大家現在的心態因時代所趨及潮流而改變了？那我們也要跟著時代來考慮一下啊！"],["許部長銘春：是，那個……"],["邱委員泰源：不然我們政策走我們的，結果跟現代的年輕人沒辦法結合也是……"],["許部長銘春：大概有七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業啦，大概有七成的年輕人，畢業後或剛畢業的年輕人喜歡在服務業啦，但是我們現在其實也有投資青年就業方案，希望把它導向重點產業……"],["邱委員泰源：這個將來當然也可以從教育，如果覺得哪些從小時候就要來教育，其實也可以結合教育來處理，對文化的形成會比較好。"],["許部長銘春：對，也是，對對對，是。"],["邱委員泰源：看下一張，最近我們也開始關心女性國人，很多人因為小孩子稍微大了，會想說不知道哪裡可以有所發揮，不曉得勞動部對這個部分、這個主題的看法怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我們今年9月1號有一個婦女再就業計畫，為期3年的計畫，預計3年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力，這個計畫包括給女性，因為他可能離開職場一段時間了，他可以針對自己過去所具備的專業技能還需要再提升的，他可以提出自主訓練計畫，我們會給他獎勵；另外就是他如果重返職場穩定就業3個月，我們也會給他最高3萬元的獎勵，因為工時調整……"],["邱委員泰源：部長，有這個計畫嘛？"],["許部長銘春：有有有。"],["邱委員泰源：做的情況你再跟我講一下。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["邱委員泰源：我們可以後續再來追蹤好了，因為我後面還有主題……"],["許部長銘春：是是是。好。"],["邱委員泰源：接下來這也是醫療院所比較困擾的，醫療院所不一樣的是什麼呢？就是你來看病，我一定要先救你，把你收來住院，加護病房出來後還要住院，結果搞半天搞了一個月，把命救起來，哇，沒錢給付，這個部分勞動部有什麼看法？簡單講一下就好。"],["許部長銘春：這個部分我們未來會，這部分行政院跨部會已經有討論了，未來會有一些方向出來；另外，在勞動部這邊，我們未來就是會針對來源國的仲介，要求他要負連帶責任。"],["邱委員泰源：這個當然是一個方法，但是不一定是好方法，還是可以再討論，這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。"],["許部長銘春：好。OK。"],["邱委員泰源：針對這個問題大家共同再來思考，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。謝謝委員。"],["邱委員泰源：感謝大家。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝召委。下一位請洪申翰委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.57909375,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.650343750000001,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.14721875,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.62284375,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.68971875,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.929718750000003,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.90221875,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.99034375,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.52159375,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.314718750000004,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.305968750000005,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.250968750000006,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.20784375,"end":56.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.237218750000004,"end":58.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.633468750000006,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":65.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.52284375,"end":68.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.00346875000001,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.42534375000001,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.28159375,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.31034375,"end":75.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.74909375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":99.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.55534375,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.46159375,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.90846875000001,"end":116.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.00846875,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.05471875,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.13409375,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.68596875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.49596875,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.56284375,"end":137.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.10221875000002,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.16909375,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.57409375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.49346875,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.80471875,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.41159375,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.26534375,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.95721875,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.51784375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.95221875000001,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.57659375,"end":184.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.57596875000002,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.54596875000001,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.17034375,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.85346875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.84471875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.89034375,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.65784375,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.15471875,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.95596875,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.17534375000002,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.34721875000002,"end":217.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.30034375000002,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.47659375,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.06659375,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.10034375,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"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4,"end":313.841,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十"},{"start":322.303,"end":347.348,"text":"則是我們進場去幫那些中高齡或高齡者,讓他們在這個勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速的去獲得填補。我想我們有在做,那當然就一直檢討成果跟看怎麼樣有精進的策略。這可能要不斷的努力,才能改變文化。"},{"start":348.237,"end":350.959,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":373.453,"end":396.485,"text":"福具每年喔每個人每年齁你只要拼用這些壯士代勞工每人每年有十萬塊的福具的的費用齁可以來補助你那這個都可以減輕他們在工作上齁比如說要搬重啦齁或者各種不便的齁那這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓戶主知道我們以前在推這個計畫的時候齁那個法案的時候當然"},{"start":398.732,"end":418.835,"text":"我們也擔心說會去搶年輕人的位子,可是畢竟還是有很多人不能說現在那種困境,像沒錢了怎麼辦?很多啊,像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊。我想國家政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊。"},{"start":421.381,"end":446.938,"text":"總是要創造它的價值,不能就是卡死在那裡,當然來創造我們的智慧。我想這個部分,很多政策不是不能做,而是怎麼把它做得好。我們現在其實是整體的缺工,所以不會有說去搶青年人工作的問題。部長我請教你,你覺得我們現在有年輕人都跑去哪邊工作?"},{"start":448.387,"end":473.67,"text":"好像很多人都在缺人力,都在家裡,家裡有錢都不用出來工作,你們有沒有去統計一下?其實很多都到服務業批發零售那邊去啦,批發零售業。批發零售業,有需要那麼多人喔?原來了解年輕人都早就在做行為。"},{"start":476.317,"end":479.558,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":495.995,"end":505.45,"text":"現在的年輕人沒辦法結合我們大概七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業我們大概有七成的年輕人畢業以後的年輕人喜歡在服務業"},{"start":509.96,"end":510.28,"text":"二、委員李姓格倫"},{"start":535.014,"end":549.808,"text":"那個...很多人都...他小孩子也長...也稍微大了齁...想說不然退休可以發揮一下這樣齁...啊這個部分不曉得我們勞動部這個部分對這個主題的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":550.601,"end":569.017,"text":"對,我們現在有一個,我們今天9月1號就是有一個婦女再就業計劃,三年的計劃,預計是說大概三年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力,那這個計劃包括說給這個女性,因為她可能離開職場一段時間了,那她可以"},{"start":570.378,"end":586.753,"text":"對自己過去具備的專業技能還需要再提升的他可以提出自主訓練計畫我們會給他獎勵另外就是說他如果重返職場穩定就業三個月我們也會給他最高三萬元的獎勵"},{"start":587.634,"end":596.821,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":617.395,"end":620.596,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議第15次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":640.362,"end":655.436,"text":"這個當然是一個方法,但是不一定是好方法,還是可以再討論。那這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。當然在針對這個問題大家共同再來思考。好不好?好,感謝大家。好,謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"149016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6c2fa5df3bc615cbdab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03224763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林為洲","委員發言時間":"10:50:21 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11:01:17","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":656,"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:01:17+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:50:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":604,"blocks":[["林委員為洲：（10時50分）謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員為洲：今天我們要審查勞工退休金條例，其中有七個案子要推動新制勞工退休金自選投資。請問部長，你覺得勞工退休金投資最重要的目的是什麼？賺錢？還是獲利，好讓勞工退休金將來可以增加更多？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，投資的第一個一定要安全保本……"],["林委員為洲：安全更重要。"],["許部長銘春：然後穩健，當然想自選就是希望能夠多賺一點投資收益，這些都是自選所希望達到的。"],["林委員為洲：其他的退休金基金有沒有自選制度？比如說公教人員……"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫。"],["林委員為洲：私校退撫？"],["許部長銘春：私校退撫及公務員退撫新制……"],["林委員為洲：都有自選？"],["許部長銘春：但是規模很小。我記得私校退撫才700億左右而已，至於勞退現在應該有3兆……"],["林委員為洲：是……"],["許部長銘春：4.9兆。"],["林委員為洲：退休金最主要的目的，以我個人的理解，就是平常工作的時候有收入，等到退休之後沒有收入了，等於在平常儲備了一些將來……"],["許部長銘春：就是個儲蓄……"],["林委員為洲：養老本，養老的本。因為那時候你可能沒有辦法工作，沒有其他收入，所以才希望有這樣的制度可以養老，但如果捨本逐末，把它拿來預支當作投資工具，萬一輸掉的話，就連養老本都沒了，這樣就跟我們設定退休金的目的不太一樣。你可以拿現在多餘的收入、生活之外的錢去投資增加收入，這個OK，因為生活有多餘；但退休金是將來沒有辦法工作了，沒有其他收入了，要靠退休金養老，不造成其他家人的負擔、國家的負擔。一旦捨本逐末，我認為捨本逐末去預支將來的退休金，然後來操作以賺取更多的利潤，這有一點違背。以我的立場，我是這樣看待，就是你剛剛講的，它有風險，而不是完全沒風險，否則拿來增加收益的話當然好，對不對？但這是有風險的，可能會輸，所以針對這次要訂定自選條例的修法……"],["許部長銘春：這幾年有很多聲音希望能夠自提自選，也就是針對自提部分能夠自選，但我們認為勞退其實是屬於社會保險的角色……"],["林委員為洲：是啊，當然。"],["許部長銘春：就像剛剛委員講的，這是退休之後經濟生活安全的依靠……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：自提自選就一定要自擔風險，畢竟是他自選，所以這一塊我們會很擔心。雖然勞工說願意自擔風險，但是當你面對像去年金融市場整個股債都下跌的情況下，勞工承受得了嗎？"],["林委員為洲：對，是啊！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們才說還是要多多考量，畢竟勞退還是社會保險的角色，它不是商業保險……"],["林委員為洲：當然。"],["許部長銘春：比較屬於純投資的事情。"],["林委員為洲：當然，它不是理財投資！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員為洲：退休金不是撥了一筆錢讓你理財投資，當初訂定的目的不是這樣！"],["許部長銘春：至於政府的投資，不管怎麼樣，一定會保證收益……"],["林委員為洲：是。"],["許部長銘春：到最後再怎麼樣，一定是政府……"],["林委員為洲：會承擔。"],["許部長銘春：會承擔，而且不低於2年期銀行定存利率的獲利給你，事實上，這幾年的投資，我們平均獲益大概是4.6%左右啦，所以對勞工來講，其實是還不錯。但我是比較擔心，如果自選之後，雖然現在是說自擔風險，大家都會說「沒關係，我可以自擔風險」，但是當真的萬一發生這個……"],["林委員為洲：又怪你們了。"],["許部長銘春：對，他們會說「當初都是政府的草案，然後立法院立法委員通過的」……"],["林委員為洲：修法開放。"],["許部長銘春：或說「當初的制度是你們幫我決定的」，我是覺得勞工還是比較辛苦的一群，有時候這件事情我會覺得說，雖然我們抱持著開放的態度，但還是要多聽各界的聲音啦。"],["林委員為洲：所以針對這個修法，我覺得應該要慎重、慎重，然後要多聽一些意見，甚至召開公聽會等等，然後也要比較其他的退撫基金目前的投資狀況，把他們的制度拿來互相做比較，看看有沒有改善的辦法，就是說，無非是想要增加投資的效益，讓大家到最後的退休金可以多一點，對不對？不然去投資做什麼，就是希望有效益嘛，有額外的投資效益。如果不用這種方式，然後去改善原來的制度，讓它的投資效益更能夠顯現或提高，而且確保那個風險，因為剛剛部長也講了，如果照現在的制度，政府是會擔當一定的保證收益的角色，這個安全性已經保障了，但是如何讓它有更高的收益，恐怕是更好的、更穩健的辦法。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們會努力啦。"],["林委員為洲：好，這個問題我們之後還會繼續討論啦，我想今天可能也不會很快的就進入逐條啦。","再來，我再請教關於開放服務業外勞的狀況，目前開放服務業外勞有什麼進度嗎？服務業的部分。"],["許部長銘春：目前還沒有，報告委員，因為之前那個……"],["林委員為洲：政策研擬到什麼階段了？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，這個部分就是觀光署有送評估報告過來，但是我們針對各界所質疑的，第一個，這個薪資條件是不是合理，還有就是是不是有挑工的問題，以及會不會衝擊到中高齡婦女就業等等問題。他們認為它的評估報告還有不足，我們還在等它的補充。另外，就是委員會這邊有要求我們，洪申翰委員有要求我們，要在12月底之前，要就整個開放，如果要開放服務業移工，對我們的族群、對我們的性別就業的影響評估。這個部分我們大概是這樣，目前還沒有說什麼時候要來討論，但是我們會等觀光署把它的補充評估報告送來，併同我們勞動部所做的這些就業影響評估報告，我們再來請專家開會做檢視，檢視之後我們才會適時地去提到我們的政策小組來評估、來討論。"],["林委員為洲：今天早上我們看到那個新聞，就是說擁有241間房間的嘉義觀止飯店，業者徵工務人員，工務技工、修繕工程師，俗稱工務技工，要會修水電，而且最好具有消防執照，但是他給的薪水是多少呢？"],["許部長銘春：2萬6,000。"],["林委員為洲：2萬6,000。"],["許部長銘春：這個新聞我有看到，非常不合理啦，非常不合理！"],["林委員為洲：他有執照耶，這樣才2萬6,000而已。"],["許部長銘春：是啊。"],["林委員為洲：你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["許部長銘春：非常不合理。"],["林委員為洲：這樣請得到人嗎？所以他請不到人嘛！他們如果希望開放外勞進口，就是開放移工進來，當然移工願意接受這個薪資，但本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資，所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突。一旦開放之後，那個行業就會變成都是外籍移工，本勞就進不去了，大家要想像一下，因為2萬6就請得到了，2萬6,400啊，我請到技工耶，還會修水電耶，本勞沒有人會做啦，老實講，那個行業開放了，將來就統統是外勞了！我現在先假設說如果連計程車都開放，我看以後開計程車的統統都是外勞，還只要基本薪資；外送員如果開放了，我看以後外送也統統都是外勞在做，就是移工在做啦，本國勞工怎麼辦？所以這個都是要整體去考量啦。"],["許部長銘春：對，沒錯。"],["林委員為洲：我們看到很多行業都是開放了外勞之後，本勞就很難進入那個行業，這個會衍生其他問題啦。當然對雇主來講，他會有外勞的選擇、外籍移工的選擇，但是以勞工的角度來看的話，很多領域就變成本勞進不去了，所以這個都要整體考量啦！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員為洲：包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工，這個大家都要好好的來討論，它衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["林委員為洲：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。請邱泰源委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.10471875,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.64471875,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.21409375,"end":46.656593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.01096875,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.517218750000005,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.00596875,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.862218750000004,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.127218750000004,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.38346875,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.53909375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.85909375,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.83784375,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.85471875,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.28909375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.28471875000001,"end":78.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.09471875,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.92971875,"end":81.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.09846875000001,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.19534375,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.43159375,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.75971875,"end":91.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.33721875,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.73346875,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.66159375000001,"end":97.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.51284375,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.10971875000001,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.08846875,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.65596875,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.66846875000002,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":167.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.37596875,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.76159375,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.70159375,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.29221875000002,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.30346875,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.84346875,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.64846875,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.85659375,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.12221875,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.54221875000002,"end":242.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.36034375000003,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.9253437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上我們看到那個新聞就是說嘉義關子這個飯店業者兩百四十一間房間徵公務"},{"start":507.858,"end":515.504,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":524.757,"end":525.138,"text":"兩萬六兩萬六這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":545.42,"end":572.786,"text":"他們如果希望說開放外勞進口就移工讓他進來當然他們願意移工願意接受這個薪資本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突一旦開放之後那個行業就會變成都是移工外籍移工本勞就進不去"},{"start":573.973,"end":601.835,"text":"大家想像一下,兩萬六我就請得到,兩萬六千四我請到技工,還有修水電,本來沒有人會做啦,老實講。那個行業開放了,那就將來通通是外勞了。假設,我現在先假設說,如果連計程車開放,我看以後通通計程車都是外勞,那只要基本薪資。外送員如果開放了,他外送我看以後通通是外勞在做。"},{"start":603.257,"end":616.95,"text":"就移工在座了本國勞工怎麼辦所以這個都是要整體去考量我們看到很多的行業都是開放了外勞之後"},{"start":617.642,"end":623.026,"text":"立法院第10會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":637.529,"end":650.838,"text":"所以這個都要整體考量包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工這個都要好好的大家來討論他衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d690f85f163cb4c58bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322b67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王婉諭","委員發言時間":"10:39:15 - 10:50:15","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":660,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:50:15+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:39:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":566,"blocks":[["王委員婉諭：（10時39分）主席有請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員婉諭：部長你好。我們知道過去勞退舊制的情況之下，勞工需要在同一個事業單位，累積一定的年資才符合請領退休金的條件。如果他工作被解僱或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資，又或者也曾經出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等，造成勞工無法請領退休金。我們看到勞退新制從2005年上路之後，的確解決了這個問題，我想不可諱言，這個部分也應該給予肯定。勞退新制是採用個人帳戶制之下，讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資，可是我們也看到在勞退新制上路之後，大家一直在反映的是、我們勞工團體一直在訴求的是，政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退新制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金，可是沒有說的是，這樣子的退休金其實是大打折扣的。我們以2021年勞工薪資中位數大約51萬來計算他的年資以及退休金，如果是以勞退舊制來計算，加起來總共大概是191萬元的勞退退休金，但是以勞退新制雇主提撥6%的比率來說，就只有91萬，所以在這樣的情況之下，很明顯的是，如果我們希望能夠保障他們請領的退休金是一樣的情況之下，回推回去後，雇主的提撥比率應該要高達12.5%。","我想這個部長一定很清楚，勞工團體們一直在訴求的是，我們希望能夠提高雇主的提撥比率，當然我也知道，部長一直在講這個6%是最低的部分，其實是可以透過勞資協議來增加，但是我們也看到相較之下，在今（2023）年7月公務人員退撫新制上路之後，強制提撥15%，其中政府的負擔是65%，換算過來雇主的提撥率高達9.75%，我覺得這就是再次地打臉勞工朋友。","我們也看到的確這個6%是最低的部分，可以透過勞資協議來提升，不過，我們也要跟部長來做一個提醒和回憶，就是在今年7月的時候，中華電信工會也發起了調高勞退雇主提撥比率的遊行，中華電信工會那時候就有提到，其實他們已經很多次向公司反映應該要提升提撥率，以彌平新舊制制度上的落差，但是公司的回應是要回去再研究，而實際上研究之後，最終中華電信公司也跳票了，它表示說，提撥比率涉及了政府的修法，所以不願意調整。","我想跟部長報告的是，即便這6%是最低，但是包括中華電信工會，它相對來說是比較大的工會，它跟雇主做協商都是這樣的情況了，都是完全沒有辦法提升，而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的，要調升其實是需要政府來做修法，更遑論其他的雇主以及其他的勞工朋友們，根本很難達到這樣的比率，所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚，當時其實你也曾經承諾，而且當時6月蔡英文總統在參加全國工會會員代表大會的時候也提到，這部分會持續地來做溝通。","所以我們其實有二個問題想要請部長來做說明，第一個，這個6%的比率，到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%？還有，在高於6%提撥率的情況之下，有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，目前雇主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位，占比大概0.61%。"],["王委員婉諭：是，所以非常少，連1%都不到，尤其是剛剛提的中華電信工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子，即便像他們是比較嚴謹、比較大的工會，即便是中華電信，都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。"],["許部長銘春：我們法規定最低、至少是6%，其實是可以再增加……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！但是實際上再增加的比率非常低啊！"],["許部長銘春：當然有些時候事業單位、雇主他可能會考慮到他所增加的一些……"],["王委員婉諭：當然，這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求這個6%應該要往上提升。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個部分其實也變成一個比較困難的地方，如果以整體來講，如果我們提高1%，一年的整個法定成本，就是雇主的法定成本，大概就是增加將近390億，所以這件事情當然要去……"],["王委員婉諭：我想勞工朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平或是覺得很受到委屈的是，我們新舊制比起來真的是差非常的多；第二個部分，剛剛提到像公務人員退撫新制上路之後，其實算起來也是在9.75%，當然我們很希望臺灣能夠慢慢發展成勞資的權利、地位可以更加平等，透過勞資協商來推進，可是實務上，部長您剛剛提的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來，不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲、多麼希望透過勞資協議來做處理，可是實際上的發生率不到1%，即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會，都沒有辦法讓他們的雇主能夠願意承擔，甚至雇主還表示這必須要透過修法，難道我們的修法不應該更加保障勞工朋友的權益嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，的確，這個部分當然法律這樣的明定，要鼓勵他們自己願意提升，雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：難上加難啦，我想大家不用昧著良心說話啦，真的是難上加難啦，部長不會不知道。"],["許部長銘春：我瞭解，但就是我們現在要修法，當然這就是一個制度的變革，我是覺得這牽涉到雙方的權益，當然，我們會願意再跟大家來開會、溝通……"],["王委員婉諭：好，接下來請教，其實當時也說實際上對於這個6%要提升，蔡英文總統也曾經承諾過勞動部會來繼續努力和溝通。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員婉諭：我們也想請教一下，從6月蔡英文總統承諾要來做溝通到現在，我們做了哪些部分？又研議的方向如何？以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分喔，其實我們……"],["王委員婉諭：這個溝通，我說的是要真正溝通，不是說嘴巴上溝通而已。"],["許部長銘春：是，但說實在這件事情當然不是那麼容易啦，因為這是要說服……"],["王委員婉諭：是啊！所以我們一定要看到實際上做了哪些事情，從6月到現在進行了哪些溝通？又跟哪些單位做了溝通？"],["許部長銘春：我們其實透過這個團體協約的部分，就是鼓勵大家能夠明文約定提高，這部分也有一些效果，然後讓那些……"],["王委員婉諭：部長，我覺得我們就先不講這個勞資協議或團體協議，你知道這有多困難，我相信部長不會不知道，所以我想請教的是要朝著我們法定做提高的部分，當時6月就承諾過會來善盡溝通，以及評估這樣的可能性，我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通了哪些事情？還是就是沒有回答，意思就是沒有溝通？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的溝通方式是多元的，或許不是一個正式召開的會議叫勞資雙方都來，而是在各種場合去跟他們做說明，希望雇主……"],["王委員婉諭：其實就是跟沒有講一樣嘛！就是一直在宣示，希望大家可以來努力，但就是沒有努力。","好，沒關係，那我們下一個題目。我們看到最近3名總統候選人，包括我們的賴清德，還有侯友宜以及柯文哲等3位候選人都有提到應該要來調整法律的命令，包括說如果雇主願意來提高提撥的部分，或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制，或是減稅的機制來提高他們提高撥補的可能性，所以我們想請教對於這個方向，部長有沒有一個想法？或者是如何能夠來支持？又或者是不支持這樣的方向？因為剛才提到，如果法定要提高6%一直說要溝通，但是卻完全提不出具體溝通了什麼，那在我們希望雇主主動提高提撥率，我們又如何來鼓勵雇主來提高？不要再說要透過勞資協議了，因為部長你的數據已經打臉你們自己說的，透過勞資協議可以來提高的，實際上不到1%，上路了18年，卻不到1%，我相信這個勞資協議真的非常困難。"],["許部長銘春：當然希望這些雇主他們能夠接受提高強制提撥率，而這個部分當然也要有一些誘因，那這些誘因可能就必須大家跨部會來做討論，因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅負的問題，這個部分我們後續願意跟相關的部會大家一起來……"],["王委員婉諭：什麼時候我們可以看得到方向？我想當然第一個是透過法規修訂來提高它的強制力，第二個是用鼓勵的方式提高誘因，讓他們願意來進行，這兩個部分我覺得都必須要處理。那第一個部分，從蔡總統6月承諾到現在並沒有進行什麼具體的溝通，第二部分是，如果朝著鼓勵的方式，我們什麼時候會有一個比較明確溝通的結果，或是溝通的方向？我想大家都希望朝這個目標，不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到，而是真的要有進程，做了些什麼，至少可以告訴大家，我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的，就是在於我們完全看不到路徑，不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到，更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡。我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦，剛才的數據也很明顯的呈現出要靠勞資協議，其實是非常、非常、非常、非常的困難，即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的。部長，所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到，因為不論是強制又或者是鼓勵，我們都要有清楚的路徑，又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力了吧！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我會責由業務單位來做一個規劃，就是說我們就這個議題的部分，我們有個具體的規劃，就是在……"],["王委員婉諭：兩個部分都做具體的規劃，1個月內給我們方便嗎？一個是能不能朝這6%的部分在法規面上來提升？第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分，該如何來做處理？我還是要再次強調，勞工朋友都在講「6%不夠花，老後被打趴！」我想6%這個部分是大家長期以來的訴求，希望能夠提升，不論是用修法又或者是退而求其次，政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力，我覺得這些都應該要具體來面對，不要講了10幾年說要透過勞資協議、透過團體協約可以做，從實際上的數據就可以知道，這就是完全非常困難的一件事情，不應該把這樣的責任放任說讓勞工朋友自己去爭取，我覺得勞動部絕對有責任，也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益，希望部長能夠在一個月內，把這兩項未來會規劃和討論的方式告訴我們，並向大家做一個報告和說明。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員婉諭：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。有請林為洲林委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.6172187500000001,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.08096875,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.62034375,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.34346875,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.76534375,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.85346875000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.80596875,"end":228.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.09659375,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.91846875000002,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.90034375000002,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.94221875000002,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.68846875000003,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.46846875000003,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.43846875000003,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.02846875,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.04534375000003,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.18034375,"end":259.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.33221875000004,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.43346875000003,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.80471875,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.85534375000003,"end":259.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.93971875,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.97346875,"end":260.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.02409375,"end":260.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.59784375000004,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.23909375,"end":268.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.94784375,"end":262.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.54596875000004,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.44034375,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.89471875000004,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.64534375,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.20221875000004,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.21909375,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.97846875,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.01284375,"end":333.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.76784375,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.97409375,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.45471875000004,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.12096875000003,"end":353.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.26409375000003,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.63096875,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.78284375000004,"end":345.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.05284375,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.52846875,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.42096875000004,"end":385.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.46284375000005,"end":369.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.51909375,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.97846875000005,"end":392.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.69534375,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.43784375,"end":399.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.24721875,"end":403.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.84971875,"end":407.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.86596875000004,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.26221875000005,"end":412.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.19846875,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.83096875,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.97346875000005,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.89471875000004,"end":440.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.46846875000006,"end":446.94846875},{"speaker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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":74.088,"end":98.403,"text":"僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請你的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講"},{"start":99.523,"end":122.017,"text":"這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過勞資協議來做增加但是呢我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是貴族的提撥率高達9.75%我覺得就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說"},{"start":122.677,"end":137.755,"text":"的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶齁就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退雇主的提撥比例的的遊行"},{"start":138.456,"end":141.238,"text":"而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整"},{"start":161.331,"end":184.814,"text":"所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟僱主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調升其實是需要政府來做修法更是還問其他的僱主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦"},{"start":186.235,"end":211.466,"text":"所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的"},{"start":214.806,"end":240.315,"text":"報告委員目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位了。占比?占比大概0.61%啦。是,所以非常少,連1%都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹、比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他"},{"start":244.016,"end":267.413,"text":"其實我們法規定是說最低至少6%嘛那其實是可以再增加但是有些時候當然以事業單位顧主委他可能會考慮到他的所增加的一些當然這就是為什麼大家一直在訴求的是這個6%應該要往上提升報告委也因為這個部分其實也變成是比較困難的地方就是說如果以整體來講一年"},{"start":269.494,"end":270.877,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":278.164,"end":302.972,"text":"所以這件事情當然要去...我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說將這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等、地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來"},{"start":307.773,"end":330.993,"text":"不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":332.102,"end":338.851,"text":"是,報告委因為的確啦齁這個部分當然法律家的民定要鼓勵他們"},{"start":339.788,"end":345.273,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":365.532,"end":369.675,"text":"參議院總統曾承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和研議的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標"},{"start":386.57,"end":387.55,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具"},{"start":407.918,"end":410.92,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":430.549,"end":455.434,"text":"當時六月承諾會來善盡溝通以及來評估這樣的可能性。我們想問這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?報委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合去跟他們做說明其實就是跟沒有講一樣嗎就是一直在宣示使用"},{"start":455.734,"end":460.958,"text":"三、委員賴清德、侯友宜及柯文哲等三位候選人提到,我應該要來調整法律的命令,包括說,如果僱主願意來提高撥補,或許我們可以透過獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們撥補的可能性。所以我們想請教,對於這個方向,部長有沒有一個想法,或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持?"},{"start":485.674,"end":486.194,"text":"當然對這些僱主希望他們能夠來接受說"},{"start":515.627,"end":526.594,"text":"提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們"},{"start":530.976,"end":533.458,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":557.065,"end":581.392,"text":"我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想部長你一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦你剛剛數據也很明顯的呈現出來要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難"},{"start":583.132,"end":597.438,"text":"即便我們推動倡議了十幾年到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的部長所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵我們都要有清楚的路徑又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧"},{"start":599.504,"end":622.501,"text":"我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分用法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴"},{"start":622.901,"end":645.232,"text":"我想這個部分略怕是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部"},{"start":647.194,"end":658.929,"text":"絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"149014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d69c8bf67ea789b2fbab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:29:37 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10:39:08","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":571,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:39:08+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:29:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時29分）謝謝，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天討論有關勞動退休金的問題，其實我們看到一份報告，就是在人力資源顧問的評比當中，臺灣排名第39，可能我們從上面看到確實臺灣的退休金制度是不是存在一些問題？剛剛也有很多委員特別提到有關退休金提撥的問題，我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中一直往上調，到明年開始已經到二萬七千多，像這樣子的話，我們勞保投保薪資的上限在105年也調到4萬5,800，有沒有可能勞保投保薪資的上限會再往上調？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我先講剛剛你講的CFA的報告，其實這個報告的評比面向很廣，因為每個國家的養老金制度不同，所以很難直接比較啦！但是因為這個不是單純評估像我們職業勞工他退休以後的退休金狀況，它評比的面向我看很廣，包括基礎年金、公共年金、私人退休金計算，還有持有房產、債務，全部都在裡面，所以我認為這個很難去做比較。但是我是認為我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工退休經濟生活的安全，我們現在其實就是兩個，勞保加勞退，以目前我們工作30年，現在平均投保薪資大概在3萬7,000左右，其實退休以後所領的所得替代率大概在68%，並不會低於OECD啦！不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考，這是第一個。","第二個就是那個4萬5,800的天花板是不是要打開？這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個勞保的財務問題，報告委員，你也知道我們勞保106年就已經開始發生逆差、缺口，所以我覺得不排除在未來整個年金改革裡面可以來討論這一題，但是沒有辦法單純現在就只針對這個問題去打開，因為這樣會牽涉到我們整個勞保財務，會更加雪上加霜。"],["黃委員秀芳：我一直想要講的就是我們勞保的投保薪資在105年提高到4萬5,800，我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調，那相對地投保薪資是不是也要再往上？我認為應該是這樣子才合理啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，我也認為應該是這樣，你看我們的職災保險就提高到7萬2,800了，這個已經cover到大概有九成勞工都可以適用得到，我是覺得這一題未來可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論，不然我現在只要單提高一級，就是1,500億的負擔，所以我才說這件事情要檢討，但是不是現在，就是要整體……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所以就是要去討論啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，未來要討論啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得未來應該要去討論才合理，就是最低薪資我們都已經這樣子往上調了，所以投保薪資上限應該也要再往上。"],["許部長銘春：對，一定要的，這是未來一定要調，但是我們現在有一些考量，勞保的財務要先解決。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛也有很多委員提到我們自提6%的這個部分，是不是可以自己選擇投資的標的？我也希望是不是有這樣的一個方式，有的人他也想要透過這樣去選擇，我不知道你們有沒有去考慮？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見，但是現在的狀況就是還是有些勞團比較擔心，這畢竟是退休老本，你要自擔風險這件事情，萬一有譬如像去年整個金融市場跌了兩、三成，這個對勞工都是很大的衝擊啦！當然我們再多多聽各界的意見，勞工也有專業的理財觀念之後，大家能夠更理性的來看這個問題、來討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，接下來我想請教有關中高齡的就業，有很多高齡或者是中高齡的民眾，其實他們也很想二度就業，找的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作，他們有的確實是因為經濟的壓力急需一份工作，可是他們去應徵的時候會碰到也許是年齡的關係，或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合，也許他還有長輩需要照顧，所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合。我也看到你們有提出一個針對補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的措施，我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好，執行率不是那麼理想，但確實地方有這樣的一個需求，我不知道未來你們執行率不是那麼好要怎麼去改進？"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，因為我們這些中高齡去找工作，常常會遇到一個問題，就是雇主的刻板印象啦！還有會覺得好像他年紀比較大一點，是不是體力沒辦法負擔，再來他有時候要兼顧家庭，所以現在我們這些計畫其實就是希望鼓勵雇主要進用，然後我們用怎麼樣的獎勵給他。另外我們也鼓勵雇主，其實針對這些中高齡，你可以用一些彈性工時，讓他職場工作跟家庭能夠兼顧，畢竟在缺工的年代，他還是我們的勞動力。其實中高齡、高齡者是一個很重要勞動力來源，所以我一直是希望我們的雇主可以善用我們的中高齡，其實我都說要講「壯世代」啦！以年齡來講，像我也是中高齡，45歲到64歲都中高齡啦，但是我覺得我們的體力、能力都還可以負擔，所以我覺得不要排斥這些壯世代，但是可能要給他一些工作的彈性，讓他能夠兼顧，這個我們都有一些相關的措施。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這個據點你們未來還要補助、還要持續嗎？"],["許部長銘春：會，會繼續，我們會弄到50處。"],["黃委員秀芳：對啊！問題是執行率不是那麼好，你們怎麼去改善？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這是剛開始啦，我們會陸續執行，因為這些事情會需要一些時間，我覺得依目前我們的推動還有努力應該會漸入佳境啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣好像已經執行2年了，是不是？這個據點開始推動是去年？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，我們不是一次，我們是陸陸續續成立，因為縣市政府它願意要規劃，我們才能夠成立，所以我們是陸續成立啦！有的成立比較早，有的剛成立啊！現在一共是14處啦，我們2年內成立14處，陸陸續續還會增加，其實就會讓績效慢慢地能夠提升上來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，有這樣的一個據點，我希望你們也要多宣傳，因為很多他們不知道，第一個，他可能直接到就業服務站嘛，當然就業服務站服務也都很好，但如果說你既然有這個據點的話，專門服務這些中高齡的……"],["許部長銘春：會，我們未來會有單一窗口，另外有一些長青中心之類的，很多壯世代去那邊活動，我們就把他連結起來，讓他們有這樣的資訊，瞭解自己其實可以再來奉獻給社會，是可以工作，又能解決我們勞動力的缺口這樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請王婉諭王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.072218750000001,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":25.242218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.00159375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.887218750000002,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.90784375,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.228468750000005,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.126593750000005,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.81784375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.87534375,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.18159375,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.81409375000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.71846875000001,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.88221875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.06284375000001,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.44221875000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.43284375000002,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.83284375,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.11971875,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.77721875,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.79409375,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.81096875,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":138.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.97971875000002,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":149.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.18096875,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.56034375000002,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.22659375,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.44534375,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.67721875,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.55034375,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.58409375000002,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.39034375,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.55471875,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.53346875000003,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":188.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.54159375,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.57534375,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.08346875,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.34409375,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.61159375000003,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.91034375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.90159375000002,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.37409375000001,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.88034375,"end":234.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.09971875000002,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.47909375,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEA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部長好 今天討論這個有關這個勞動退休金的問題那我想請教就是說其實我們看到一份報告就是說我們這個人力資源顧問有關在那個評比台灣的這個評比當中排名第39那這個排名第39可能我們從上面看到就是說確實台灣的這個退休金制度是不是存在一些問題"},{"start":45.47,"end":64.963,"text":"議員提到有關退休金提撥的問題我想請教因為我們最低薪資在這幾年當中已經一直往上跳到明年開始已經到兩萬七千多像這樣子的話我們勞保的投保薪資的上限在105年"},{"start":66.184,"end":70.508,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":91.877,"end":120.205,"text":"你很難直接比較啦很難直接比較但是因為這個不是單純評估說像我們這種我們的職業勞工他退休以後的那個退休金的狀況他評比的面向我看很廣包括基礎年金公共年金私人兌現金計算還有持有房產債務全部都在裡面所以我認為說這個很難去做比較但是呢我是認為說我們國家當然一定要確保我們自己勞工的退休經濟生活的安全那我們現在其實就是兩個嘛"},{"start":120.945,"end":136.885,"text":"老保加勞退。老保加勞退,我們工作三十年,現在平均投保薪資大概在三萬七左右。退休以後所領的所得替代率"},{"start":137.385,"end":155.136,"text":"大概在百分之六十八並不會低於OECD不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考第二個就是說那個四萬五千八天花板是不是要打開那這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個"},{"start":156.496,"end":160.017,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":187.143,"end":204.401,"text":"其實我一直想要講的就是說其實我們的這個勞保的這個投保薪資在105年提高到這個四萬五千八嘛那其實我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調那是不是也要相對的這個投保薪資是不是也要再往上"},{"start":205.501,"end":230.916,"text":"這是我認為應該是這樣子才合理啊我也認為應該是這樣你看我們的紙災保險災保我就提到七萬兩千八了這個已經cover到大概有八成的勞工九成勞工都可以適用得到但未來我是覺得這一題可能未來就是可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論啊不然我現在我只要單提高一級我就是一千五百億的負擔啊"},{"start":234.216,"end":237.218,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":257.247,"end":259.608,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":284.683,"end":303.162,"text":"對這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見但是就是說現在的狀況就是說還是有些老團比較擔心的就是說這畢竟是退休老本那你要自擔風險這件事情萬一有譬如說像去年金融"},{"start":304.125,"end":308.888,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":327.259,"end":353.056,"text":"其中有很多高齡或中高齡的民眾,其實他們也很想在二度就業。早的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作,有的他們也急需一份工作,有的確實是因為經濟的壓力,急需一份工作。可是他們去應徵的時候可能都會碰到年齡的關係,或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合。"},{"start":357.339,"end":373.541,"text":"其他還有長輩需要照顧所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合那我也看到就是說你們有提出一個就是針對這個補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的這個措施那我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":374.582,"end":376.803,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":392.159,"end":393.701,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":405.472,"end":406.934,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":424.172,"end":426.714,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":443.946,"end":445.927,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":465.235,"end":490.442,"text":"還要繼續持續嗎?會繼續,我們會弄到50處。對啊,問題是執行率不是那麼好,你們怎麼去改善?因為報告委也是剛開始啦,就是我們會陸續的去,因為有些這件事情就是會要需要一些時間,我覺得依目前我們的推動還有我們的努力應該會進入加進啦,進入加進。這樣好像已經執行兩年了欸,是不是?"},{"start":490.742,"end":494.484,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":514.132,"end":531.578,"text":"兩年內目前是14處了,那陸陸續續還會增加,那我們其實就會讓績效慢慢的把它能夠提升上來。好,那有這樣的一個據點我希望你們也要多宣傳,因為很多他們不知道可能也是"},{"start":532.538,"end":546.383,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16"},{"start":559.868,"end":562.314,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"}]}},{"id":"149013","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149013","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d66f0c63c8fd12bc9fab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322b36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳椒華","委員發言時間":"10:22:42 - 10:29:26","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":404,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:29:26+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:22:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["陳委員椒華：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員椒華：部長好。部長，目前我們看到3位總統候選人在談論到勞退新制的問題，都僅說會鼓勵雇主和勞工提撥，卻迴避強制提高雇主提撥勞退的修法，這樣看起來，他們應該是沒有想要去解決我們勞工的生活，而且是退休的生活，尤其我們現在看到整個物價上漲這麼多。請問勞動部，我們從舊制到新制，18年過去了，時空背景也不同了，所以針對提高雇主提撥勞退的比例是否應儘速研議提高？我們要問，目前全國勞工可期待預計提高多少百分比？預計什麼時候可以推行修法？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們知道勞工非常關心這個議題，但是因為強制提撥的部分就會牽涉到雇主的負擔，所以這個部分我們會參考大家的意見，然後……"],["陳委員椒華：所以勞動部的態度就是還在研議嗎？在參考意見嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們就是來傾聽，然後參考大家意見。委員，就是因為我們也統計……"],["陳委員椒華：勞工就是希望提高啊！"],["許部長銘春：你問我多少百分比，問題是每提高1%的話，雇主每一年的負擔大概就是390億，所以這個部分因為會增加雇主的負擔，我們是認為可能要再經過討論啦！"],["陳委員椒華：可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["陳委員椒華：也一直是困難的問題，但是18年過去了，本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來檢討，然後提出照顧勞工的作法，尤其物價上漲這麼多，是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個牽涉到退休的生活，當然我們願意傾聽勞工的意見，也願意針對大家的期待來跟雇主還有資方……"],["陳委員椒華：好，那要積極去研議嘛，你認為什麼時候要修法呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我是認為這個部分還要經過討論之後、傾聽各界的聲音，然後跟勞雇雙方共同討論之後……"],["陳委員椒華：我們的總統候選人都沒有具體地提出他們要做的方法，那勞動部是不是樂的輕鬆呢？"],["許部長銘春：也不是這樣，報告委員，因為這個……"],["陳委員椒華：不是這樣，那是怎樣呢？"],["許部長銘春：因為整個政策有時候……因為這個也牽涉到……這個也算是一個大議題，我覺得大家還是必須去面對，但是要審慎地研議，這個議題其實我們一直都瞭解，勞工的期待也很高，我們知道。"],["陳委員椒華：好，瞭解了，還會繼續再瞭解。部長，現在我們勞工退休金的個人帳戶是政府代為操作，請問目前的績效怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：我們的績效大概平均有4.5%到4.6%。"],["陳委員椒華：那是不是可以開放由勞工選擇，像私校退撫基金可以自主投資或是一定比例……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們的投資收益沒有比退撫基金差，我們是比它……"],["陳委員椒華：所以目前沒有考慮要修改？"],["許部長銘春：目前其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音，尤其也有勞團是持反對的意見，所以這個議題我們是持開放的態度，但是會傾聽各界的聲音，目前……"],["陳委員椒華：或是可以一定比例，譬如60%由政府操作，其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資。"],["許部長銘春：我想各種意見我們都會參考。"],["陳委員椒華：好，再請教部長，在臺灣的年金制度中，有6萬多名的私校教職員處境是最為特殊的，在私校的退撫新制實施後，目前也沒有發揮預期的效益。部長，你認為現在的私校職災等保險可不可以跟勞保整併呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個議題我請主管來回復，好不好？"],["陳委員椒華：本席是希望能夠關心私校這些退撫的教職員工，這個部分勞動部有沒有去瞭解他們的困境，然後考慮跟勞保來做整併？"],["許部長銘春：我瞭解了，報告委員，因為這個目前還是屬於公保體系，所以我想委員關心的是這個議題。"],["陳委員椒華：是，沒錯。"],["許部長銘春：我們再跟銓敘部這邊來做一些瞭解。"],["陳委員椒華：好，目前也是因為物價上漲得這麼嚴重，以後這些私校退撫，以一個教授退休來說，他的月退可能才1萬6,000元，這是非常非常地低，所以這個問題我也是希望政府能夠重視。再來，中捷到北捷的工安事故頻傳，我要請問勞動部怎麼來監督？昨天北捷的工程又發生工安事故，這個監督方面你們現在要怎麼做？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分臺北市政府勞檢處目前正在做一些職災的調查，之後瞭解了也會做相關的處分。"],["陳委員椒華：再給本席書面，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，再提供給委員。"],["陳委員椒華：兩個禮拜，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員椒華：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：有請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.29221875,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":41.509718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.729093750000004,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.204718750000005,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.56909375000001,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.52221875000001,"end":69.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.45034375,"end":77.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.11159375000001,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.74346875,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.47284375000001,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.10971875,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.91471875,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.97596875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.70971875000001,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":118.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.16034375000001,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.59471875000001,"end":134.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":134.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.31784375,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.23221875000002,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":162.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.61034375,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.13221875000002,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.78471875000002,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.18096875,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.19784375,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.79596875000001,"end":183.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.98534375,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.26346875000002,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.13159375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.23471875,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.40721875000003,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.14534375000002,"end":222.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.28346875000003,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.88971875000001,"end":229.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.31159375000001,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.03721875000002,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.32409375,"end":232.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.04909375000003,"end":236.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.05721875,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.79909375000003,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.22034375,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.94034375,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.55971875,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.24284375,"end":269.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.59221875000003,"end":286.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.54659375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.14534375,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.07346875,"end":295.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.22096875,"end":296.490968750000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案。"},{"start":111.91,"end":134.161,"text":"會增加雇主負擔﹖我們是認為說可能要再經過討論﹖可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛對不對也是一直困難的問題但是18年過去了本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來做檢討然後提出來照顧勞工的做法尤其物價上漲這麼的多是嗎"},{"start":135.817,"end":140.146,"text":"報告委員,因為這個是牽涉到退休的生活,當然我們"},{"start":143.271,"end":152.053,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":171.806,"end":173.33,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":181.752,"end":206.073,"text":"這是一個大議題我覺得大家還是必須去面對但是要去審慎的研議我們沒有說這個議題其實我們一直也了解勞工的期待也很高了解了還會繼續再了解那請問部長我們現在勞工退休金個人帳戶現在我們的政府是代委操作那請問績效現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":208.237,"end":209.378,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":228.9,"end":253.917,"text":"所以目前沒有要考慮做修改目前我們其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音而且我們也有勞團他是持反對的意見所以我們認為說這個議題我們開放的態度但是請聽各界的聲音說是可以一定比例比如說60%由政府操作其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資"},{"start":256.699,"end":259.087,"text":"我想各種意見我們都會來參考,各種意見來參考。"},{"start":261.618,"end":286.328,"text":"好,那再請教部長部長知道那個私校就是我們就是臺灣的年金制度中有6萬多的私校教職員就是處金是最為特殊那這些私校的退府新制實施目前也沒有發揮預期的效益"},{"start":287.248,"end":298.151,"text":"那部長你認為現在的私校職災等保險可不可以跟勞保來做整併呢?本席是希望能夠有關心私校這些退府的教職員工"},{"start":316.34,"end":319.167,"text":"立法院第10屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條之一"},{"start":321.431,"end":323.873,"text":"等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":351.651,"end":353.733,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":372.56,"end":393.484,"text":"昨天北捷的工程又發生公安事故。」那這個監督方面我們現在要怎麼做?臺北市政府勞檢處目前正在做一些實在的調查,那之後了解也會做相關的部分。"}]}},{"id":"149012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d67e01be54a66e1a8bab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a032216680b52cefca5135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐志榮","委員發言時間":"10:12:20 - 10:22:35","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":615,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:22:35+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:12:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["徐委員志榮：（10時12分）謝謝主席，拜託許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：徐委員好。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，我這會期好像對勞動部是最軟的，然後最低工資法又過了。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員的支持。"],["徐委員志榮：今天是這會期最後一次質詢，我們今天主要講勞退條例，當勞工朋友退休以後，勞保跟勞退應該是他最主要的經濟來源，剛剛也聽了所得替代率等等，照我們現有的制度來講，領最低工資的人應該有百分之三十幾吧？"],["許部長銘春：至少應該有……"],["徐委員志榮：應該有三百多萬人嘛，領最低工資的勞工做了30年、35年下來……"],["許部長銘春：領最低工資大概百分之二十幾，我們現在有二百多萬人。"],["徐委員志榮：那也還算滿多的。"],["許部長銘春：大概占五分之一。"],["徐委員志榮：這樣他們的所得替代率等等算起來夠他們生活嗎？夠他們安心的生活嗎？領基本工資的人也有可能一直做到退休都還是領基本工資喔！"],["許部長銘春：對。退休的話，要看他的年資。"],["徐委員志榮：算30年的話，大概……"],["許部長銘春：我們現在是……"],["徐委員志榮：再加個勞退的話，二萬多？"],["許部長銘春：差不多2萬7、8啦！"],["徐委員志榮：2萬7、8應該還馬馬虎虎。"],["許部長銘春：我現在的印象是2萬5,000元就也差不多……"],["徐委員志榮：還馬馬虎虎，可以過活了。然後我們就講到是我自己的觀念錯誤還是怎樣？我們勞保的公務預算來挹注，剛剛好像主席也有講過，好像已經提撥二千多億元嘛？"],["許部長銘春：2,670億元。"],["徐委員志榮：我不知道這個是對還是錯，我一直的觀念是公務預算如果不撥補到這邊，我不是反對喔！譬如明年的1,000億還可以到其他各部會，還有很多地方要用，我的意思就是說一直用公務預算撥補的話，好像不是真正解決勞保年金幾年後幾年後會破產的根本解決之道。當然部長一再地說我們政府負責最後的支付責任，也不可能會破產，也可以讓大家安心，但我一直覺得用公務預算撥補，甚至於你明年1,000億，有可能以後會超過1,000億也不一定吧？也有可能吧？"],["許部長銘春：對，明年就1,200億。"],["徐委員志榮：就會超過嘛！我的意思是那個錢應該其他部會也都還有需要用，我們的根本解決之道應該是在勞保年金的改革上。當然一講到改革就講到多繳、少領、延後退，當然這很難處理，假設沒有公務預算的撥補，有沒有什麼其他方法可以讓勞保年金不要這麼快的破產？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，其實目前大概所有不管是學者專家、各政黨或者政府所研議、討論當中的方案……"],["徐委員志榮：最簡單最簡單的就是公務預算撥補。"],["許部長銘春：撥補一定要有，因為現在第一個，我們的費率其實最高就到12%；第二個，我們年資給付率是1.55。這個收支逆差從106年就開始發生，所以政府撥補這件事情是各個版本都一定要有。"],["徐委員志榮：部長，一定要有，但是一直擴張的話我覺得也不是根本解決之道。大家參考看看，譬如我們增加勞參率，這個勞參率可能是針對婦女姐妹朋友，他們可能因為工時不方便還是其他原因，所以比較沒有工作的意願，可以用變形工時給他們有方便的時間去當勞工，意思就是當勞工的話就比較有人繳錢，比較多人繳保費嘛，甚至於65歲退休，是不是有可能一步一步、慢慢的從65到66，或者是一段時間後再從66到67退休，日本好像也到70歲才退是嗎？"],["許部長銘春：對，日本……"],["徐委員志榮：我也不是很清楚啦，我也不好意思透露我的年齡，其實像我這個年齡，我要去工作的話還是很行的啦！所以稍微延後退的話……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，日本現在也是65，跟我們一樣，不過他們有研議要延長啦。"],["徐委員志榮：有研議要延長喔？所以我的意思也是說是否也可以研議延長，不是兵役的役啦，是研討看能不能延長。總歸就是我覺得一直用公務預算撥補雖然是必須要的，但是越來越多，你看從200億、300億、幾百億，數字好像越來越大了。反正就是開源節流嘛，延後退可能就是一種節流方式，開源可能就像我剛剛講的提高勞參率，當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的變形工時，大概就講到這邊給你參考啦！","也有一些勞工朋友跟我提過，我們的勞保基金也是有委託代操，之前有一些人是想說他自提的部分可不可以他自己去委託民間的一些代操單位，甚至政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起去委託？他可能認為他委託的獲益比較大。我知道我們政府會擔心他把自己的退休金老本委託到私人去以後血本無歸，退休生活更有麻煩，但是我一直在想，會提撥6%到代操的人不是會領基本工資的人，他應該都是電子新貴，一個月都是薪水幾十萬的人啦！不然那個6%，小小的錢操起來也沒有多少錢嘛！所以就算他提撥的6%跟政府的6%一起給它操，操到都算零的話，但他一個月領幾十萬、十幾萬薪水的人，生活也安全無虞啦！因此是不是我們也可以考慮，甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊操，而他自己提撥的6%，他搞不好一個月領薪水二、三十萬耶！他提撥6%去這樣代操的話，可能也是一種相當的金額，當然他認為他自己委外的話，獲益比部裡面操的多，他盈虧自己負責嘛！所以這方面是否也可以考慮啦？反正他自己去決定嘛！他自己決定，他要的話就自己負責嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，謝謝委員剛剛的意見，我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法，的確如果……"],["徐委員志榮：當然在部裡面是有保障啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，就是我們會考慮到畢竟不是所有自提的勞工都可能是那麼高薪啦！有時候他自提的部分，他還是希望有保障，當然他自選之後，他自擔風險……"],["徐委員志榮：那當然啦！"],["許部長銘春：但我們會擔心像去年那種整個金融市場……"],["徐委員志榮：那他當然就自己負責啦！"],["許部長銘春：跌了兩、三成，勞工都很擔心啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對啦！"],["許部長銘春：所以我們會多重考量。"],["徐委員志榮：我的意思是，會去提撥給民間操作的人，他領的薪水一定是很多的啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["徐委員志榮：萬一那邊泡湯掉，他領的薪水應該都還沒問題啦！"],["許部長銘春：對，其實……"],["徐委員志榮：我的論點是這樣。"],["許部長銘春：像這些高薪的，他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品，也是一個方式，那也是一種自選，所以他其實不一定要進到這個自提裡面來，他也可以把自己本來要自提的，他其實就可以去購買商品嘛！"],["徐委員志榮：他也有可能自己在玩嘛！"],["許部長銘春：就是金融市場上的商品，譬如固定買基金或什麼，那又是另外一個投資方式，其實我們都鼓勵大家多方去理財，但最重要的就是一定要有保本啦！"],["徐委員志榮：對，我瞭解。"],["許部長銘春：不然的話，這個勞工的退休金，這是他退休經濟生活的安全，這很重要。"],["徐委員志榮：好，謝謝部長，也是給你參考而已啦！"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員志榮：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請陳椒華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.021593750000001,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.79784375,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.92846875,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.56971875,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.61971875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.15471875,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.32284375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.60534375,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.68971875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.53346875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.668468750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":49.744718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.52034375,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.47284375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.57409375,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.78471875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.10534375,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.21846875,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.64846875,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.59346875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.17534375000001,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.79534375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.02284375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.93346875,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.09721875000001,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.42596875000001,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.49346875,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.76346875,"end":92.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.01659375000001,"end":92.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.38784375,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.43846875000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.44659375,"end":94.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.02846875,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.98159375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.04471875,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.54659375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.03596875000001,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.31846875000001,"end":109.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.22096875000001,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.28409375000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.89971875,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.35096875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.43096875,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.72159375000001,"end":116.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.68471875,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":192.659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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":154.422,"end":165.37,"text":"其他各部會還有很多地方要用的。我的意思就是說,好像一直用公務預算撥補的話,好像不是真正的解決這個"},{"start":168.195,"end":193.639,"text":"老闆年金他們說幾年後幾年後會不會破產的這個根本解決之道啦當然部長您一再的是說我們政府負責最後的這個支付責任也不可能會破產是這樣也可以讓大家安心我一直覺得就是說用公務意義上的撥補甚至於你明年一千億也有可能以後會超過一千億也不一定吧也有可能吧對明年就一千兩百億"},{"start":194.039,"end":195.9,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":221.397,"end":248.353,"text":"那是不是說如果沒有這個公務預算的撥補我們假設啦沒有公務預算的撥補有沒有什麼其他的方法來可以對這個勞保年金不要這麼快的跟委員報告齁其實目前啦齁大概所有不管是學者專家或各政黨或是政府所研議的齁就是說在討論當中的方案齁"},{"start":249.611,"end":269.157,"text":"最簡單就是撥補一定要有因為第一個我們的費率其實最高就到12%第二個我們年資給付率是1.55那這個收支逆差就從106年就開始了發生所以政府撥補這件事情是一定各個版本都一定要有"},{"start":269.497,"end":271.878,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":294.429,"end":297.172,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":310.803,"end":338.558,"text":"較多人繳保費甚至於說我們到65歲退是不是有可能一步一步的慢慢的65到66或者是一段時間66到67日本好像也到70歲才退還是怎麼樣我也不是很詳細的我也不好意思透露我的年齡其實像我這個年齡我要去工作的話我還是很行的"},{"start":341.859,"end":345.84,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":356.612,"end":377.565,"text":"嚴議延長,不是兵役的役,是嚴討看能不能延長。總歸就是說,我是覺得說一直用公務預算,雖然是必須要的,但是越來越多,你看從兩百億、三百億、幾百億,好像數字越來越大了。"},{"start":379.048,"end":402.349,"text":"所以這個反正就是開研節流嘛節流可能就是延後退的一種節流方式開研可能就我剛剛講的這個提高勞參力提高勞參力當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的這個變形工時啦大概講在這邊參考啦還有因為有一些勞工朋友跟我提過這個譬如說委託"},{"start":405.014,"end":406.976,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":421.606,"end":445.704,"text":"帶草單位甚至於政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起一起去委託他他可能認為說他委託的他的獲益比較大但是我知道我們政府會擔心說把他自己退休金的老本不要委託到那個私人的那個部分去以後"},{"start":446.705,"end":448.507,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":468.061,"end":484.734,"text":"所以說就算他提拨的6%跟政府的6%一起給他抄,抄到沒有破都算零的話他一個月他領幾十萬十幾萬薪水的人他的生活也安全無疑啦所以是不是我們也可以考慮說"},{"start":487.443,"end":514.41,"text":"甚至於政府提撥的6%還在勞動部這邊抄他自己提撥的6%他搞不好一個月領薪水二三十萬他提撥6%去這樣代替抄的話可能也是一種相當的金額當然他認為說他自己委外的話會議比部裡面抄的多他自己盈虧他自己負責所以這方面是否也可以考慮"},{"start":516.209,"end":521.699,"text":"反正他自己去決定嘛。他自己決定他要的話你就自己負責嘛。"},{"start":524.712,"end":548.389,"text":"謝謝委員的剛剛的意見我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法那的確就是說如果當然在部裡面是有保障對 那就是說我們會考慮到說畢竟不是所有自選的勞工自體的勞工他可能都是那麼高薪所以有時候他的自體的部分他才是希望有保障"},{"start":549.19,"end":569.382,"text":"所以如果說當然你說他自選之後他自擔風險我們都會擔心說像去年那種金融整個金融市場跌了兩三成勞工都很擔心所以我們會多種考量我的意思是說會去提撥給民間操作的人他領的薪水一定是很多的萬一那邊泡湯掉他領的薪水應該都還沒問題"},{"start":573.084,"end":589.97,"text":"而其實像這些高薪的他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品也是一個方式那也是一種自選就他其實不一定要進到這個自體裡面來他也可以把自己本來要自體的他其實就可以去購買商品就是金融市場上的商業"},{"start":592.881,"end":594.923,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"}]}},{"id":"149011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d65788c97d296cb506ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03221b1b31f5abdde3215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"10:03:10 - 10:12:14","影片長度":"00:09:04","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":544,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:12:14+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T10:03:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":403,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（10時3分）謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動部發展署蔡署長。"],["主席（吳委員欣盈）：有請署長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。據悉我國已即將與印度簽署MOU引進印度籍勞工，本席並不反對這樣的政策，不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。首先我想請教一下，印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工，在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進，東南亞大概目前據我們所知，像新加坡就有很多，其實印度基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟宗教習慣的問題，各個國家其實對於移工本身的一些生活適應的調適都必須要做好一些準備，所以基本上在我們整個評估的過程當中都會去詳加注意。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為剛剛你提到語言，畢竟他們光是方言就447種，官方承認就22種，所以在語言上是非常地多元化，將來這些印度籍的勞工，我另外再請教他們未來主要是補充什麼樣產業的缺工問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員……"],["陳委員瑩：你可能要講大聲一點，對準麥克風。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，關於未來在哪些產業有這些印度籍勞工的需求，我們後續會在工作小組會議當中與各部會做一些討論，看看缺口在哪裡。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們現在還不知道？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，因為未來到底在哪些行業需要開放由印度移工補充，還要做一些討論，目前我們在第一階段只是就來源國的部分做評估。"],["陳委員瑩：所以在還不知道哪些產業缺工、要補充哪些產業就直接先挑選國家？"],["蔡署長孟良：因為我們過去以往在開放的過程當中，第一個，跟來源國之間要先有一個合作意向，這是第一步。"],["陳委員瑩：沒關係！根據媒體報導，可能開放的行業其實也就是我們常見的缺工行業，像農業、製造業及營造業，由於這些行業的外籍勞工大部分都是居住在廠區以外的社區，針對印度籍勞工的生活管理，我想瞭解一下發展署有什麼樣的規劃及準備？"],["蔡署長孟良：目前針對印度移工開放，第一個要考量其來源和勞工素質，尤其是不能影響我們的治安部分，我們會特別注意。目前國內在移工管理上其實都有一些相關規範，我們也會在後續的工作會議當中做一些相關規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：聽起來好像對於他們大部分要居住在廠區以外的這些社區，在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的規劃及準備？"],["蔡署長孟良：就我們的瞭解，目前國內的移工，其實大部分雇主都會做一些妥善安排，就是在廠區內……"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理？"],["蔡署長孟良：他會做一些規劃，但要依照我們的規定來辦理。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們只是規定，規劃留給雇主自己去處理？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們後續也會協助。"],["陳委員瑩：其實你不用緊張，我今天只是提出一些提醒，如果這只是規定，而你們沒有及早做一些規劃準備的話，我良心建議你們還是多思考一些，也幫雇主多思考一些，會減少到時候可能會面對的問題，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：再來，印度是一個非常多元文化、種族，甚至存在階級嚴格差異的國家，他們的文字及語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度，發展署有沒有儲備這方面的人才？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為印度確實非常大，它的語言真的非常多，英文只是其中之一，以目前外交部給我們的建議，後續大概會有一些來源地區的選擇，尤其語言部分也會納入優先考量，至於其他語言如印度語，這部分也跟委員報告，我們後續必須要跟學校或相關的翻譯資源進行一些合作。"],["陳委員瑩：每個人第一個想到的都會是語言，可能是翻譯的部分，我想再提醒，因為在宗教、生活、語言、習慣上的不同，而且也不是我們非常熟悉或其他來源國很熟悉的地方，所以有關於心理諮商輔導的部分，未來在這些不同國籍的勞工們有衝突的時候，怎麼樣來做協調，這方面的人才其實也都是你需要思考到的。對於印度籍勞工一旦進到臺灣，是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練？特別是職業安全衛生的教育訓練，我不知道你們有沒有跟職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程？"],["蔡署長孟良：現在我們跟職安署不管移工在來臺前或來臺後，職安衛的部分都會列入一個重點，未來印度移工也會納入整體來做一個規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：所以不會只有看護工需要而已？"],["蔡署長孟良：不會，都需要整體規劃。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為我有看到職安署署長點頭。","再來請勞保局，我接下來想再提醒一下勞保局。"],["白局長麗真：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：你們投保對象的姓名欄位是不是適用印度籍勞工？會不會因為字元的長度太短，以至於無法登錄？聽說最長的曾經長到六百多字，一般而言，在印度的制度下，有些人的姓名真的很長，如果我們事先沒有做好準備跟因應，到時候會不會造成電腦資料庫當機？"],["白局長麗真：非常謝謝委員提醒，日後如果有相關的移工引進，我們會特別留意。"],["陳委員瑩：因為聽說有的還要再爭取或者他們還需要到1,000字，所以這部分本席在這邊做一個提醒。我今天提出的這些問題只是在提醒勞動部還有各所屬機關一定要好好規劃跟準備，既然行政院已經核定要與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容，預定在年底前完成簽署，雖然時間上尚未完全確定，一直到真的進來可能還有一段時間，在人數上也都需要討論，所以預計明年才會正式引進印度籍勞工。但是我覺得有敏感度、有遠見、有責任感的機關首長會往前看，就會看見、遇見很多的問題，我相信在這個部長的帶領之下，大家一定會跟他一樣聰明，就各自業務職掌的範圍希望大家可以好好規劃跟準備，謝謝。"],["白局長麗真：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位有請徐志榮委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.57596875,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.90409375,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.884718750000005,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.89534375,"end":86.59971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.92034375,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.57284375,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.19096875000001,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.90346875,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.33784375,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.05284375000002,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.39034375,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.33534375000002,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.14784375000002,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.33659375000002,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.31096875,"end":153.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.28534375,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.36971875,"end":155.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.68471875,"end":177.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.10034375,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.08534375000002,"end":213.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.98909375000002,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":227.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.84346875000003,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.58471875,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.87971875000002,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.62596875000003,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.44784375,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.76409375000003,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.83971875,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.60284375,"end":271.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.41471875,"end":272.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.41034375000004,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.58784375000005,"end":326.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":368.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.06346875,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.99471875,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.76659375,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.05471875,"end":398.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.17971875,"end":401.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.25971875000005,"end":402.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.19159375000004,"end":406.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.19096875,"end":407.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.77721875000003,"end":411.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.11846875000003,"end":412.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.38784375,"end":417.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.88971875000004,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.05409375000005,"end":419.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.53846875000005,"end":451.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.79159375,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.80846875000003,"end":456.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.46596875,"end":482.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.28471875,"end":515.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.66346875,"end":532.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.25971875,"end":536.75721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.23,"end":43.762,"text":"二、委員謝主席麻煩請這個發展署蔡署長,又請署長。好,委員好。署長好。據悉我國即將與這個印度簽署MOU引進的這個印度籍勞工。那本席並不反對這樣的政策,不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。"},{"start":45.63,"end":56.861,"text":"首先我想請教一下印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異?"},{"start":58.65,"end":86.464,"text":"跟委員報告因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進那東南亞大概目前據我們所知像新加坡他就有很多那其實印度大概基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟這個宗教習慣的問題那各個國家其實對於這個移工他在本身的一些生活適應的條例都必須要做好一些準備那這基本上在我們在整個評估的過程當中都會去想加注意"},{"start":87.52,"end":113.21,"text":"因為剛剛你提到語言畢竟他們光是這個方言就447種那這個官方承認就22種所以是相當在這個語言上是非常的多元化那將來這些這個印度籍的勞工主要我另外再請教就是說他們未來主要是補充什麼樣的這個產業缺工的問題你可能要講大聲一點對準麥克風"},{"start":116.191,"end":143.018,"text":"跟委員報告在目前印度未來在哪些產業有這些需求其實目前我們在後續在工作小組會議當中跟各部會其實會做一些討論在缺口在哪裡所以你們現在是還不知道現在基本上到底未來在哪些開放行業需要由印度的移工來補充這個還要做一些討論那基本上我們在目前第一階段只是就來源國的這個部分做一個評估"},{"start":143.578,"end":144.358,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":154.321,"end":182.439,"text":"對,所以公文報告因為目前我們在整個的過去以往我們在開放的過程當中第一個就是說跟南韓國之間要先有一個合作的意向這個是第一步因為根據媒體的報導可能開放的這個行業啦其實也就是我們常見缺工的行業就是像農業啦製造業還有營造業那由於說這些行業的這些外籍的勞工呢大部分都是居住在"},{"start":183.521,"end":184.003,"text":"長驅以外的社區。」"},{"start":192.734,"end":212.916,"text":"我們目前在整個印度的移工開放第一個就是說從他的來源跟他勞工素質尤其就是說一些不能影響我們治安這個部分我們會特別注意那在國內目前在整個移工管理上其實都會有一些相關的規範這個目前我們大概都會在後續的一個工作會議當中都會做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":214.342,"end":241.692,"text":"所以聽起來好像就是對於他們大部分要居住在長區以外的這些社區在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的一個規劃跟準備?其實大部分就我們的了解以目前國內的運用其實大部分其實雇主都會做一些妥善的安排所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理目前他會做一些規劃那要依照我們的規定來辦理"},{"start":242.671,"end":257.205,"text":"所以你們只是規定,然後規劃留給這個僱主他們自己去處理?我們後續其實也會協助。因為我今天其實你不用緊張,我只是提出一些提醒。"},{"start":258.687,"end":263.191,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":280.549,"end":283.112,"text":"甚至階級都嚴格差異的國家。文字與語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度。在發展署你們有沒有儲備這方面的人才?"},{"start":298.125,"end":326.184,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前因為印度確實非常大他的語言真的非常那英文只是其中之一啦齁那目前如果以目前外交部給我們的建議其實後續大概會有一些來源地區會有一些選擇齁那尤其語言這個部分你會優先考量那至於說如果其他語言像印度語這部分也跟委員報告這個我們現在也後續必須要做一些相關的跟學校跟一些相關的一些翻譯的一個資源來做一些合作"},{"start":327.926,"end":351.741,"text":"當然每個人第一個想到的會是語言那可能就是翻譯的部分那我想再提醒就是說因為可能在宗教還有生活語言習慣上的這個不同那也不是我們非常熟悉或者其他這個來源國很熟悉的這個地方那所以就是說有關於這個輔導心理諮商"},{"start":354.062,"end":354.983,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":374.876,"end":402.426,"text":"那是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練那特別是這個職業安全衛生的教育訓練我不知道你們有沒有已經跟這個職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程對跟委員其實現在我們跟職安署其實在移工不管是來台前或來台後其實職安會這個部分會列入一個重點那未來印度移工也會納入整體來做一些工作所以不會只是看護工需要而已都需要整理過嗎"},{"start":403.22,"end":404.242,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":416.791,"end":436.291,"text":"我接下來想就是再提醒一下這個勞保局就是你們投保對象的這個姓名藍衛是不是有適用印度籍的這個勞工因為字源的長度會不會太短以至於說無法登錄聽說這個最長的曾經已經長到有600多字"},{"start":436.972,"end":447.785,"text":"所以一般而言在這個印度的這個制度下有一些人的姓名真的很長那如果我們事先就沒有做好這個準備跟因應到時候會被造成這個電腦資料庫當機"},{"start":452.194,"end":470.216,"text":"非常謝謝委員提醒那日後如果說相關移工的引進我們特別來留意因為還有聽說有的還要再爭取或者他們還有需要到一千字的所以這個部分本席也在這邊做一個提醒那因為我今天提出的這些問題"},{"start":472.098,"end":488.976,"text":"只提醒勞動部及各所屬機關必須好好規劃及準備既然行政院已合併與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容預定在年底前完成簽署"},{"start":489.617,"end":502.328,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":515.64,"end":524.265,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"}]}},{"id":"149010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d641a774a6c3414365ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322470cdfe8d0499ff35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳欣盈","委員發言時間":"09:55:31 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10:03:02","影片長度":"00:07:31","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":451,"end_time":"2023-12-13T10:03:02+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:55:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["吳委員欣盈：（9時55分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部長許部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["吳委員欣盈：部長早。已經快過一年了，然後也可能是我最後一次跟部長質詢，我想請問一下部長覺得大家今年討論的年度關鍵字，你知道這個年度關鍵字是什麼字嗎？"],["許部長銘春：缺吧！"],["吳委員欣盈：是的，今年的關鍵字是缺，不只是五缺，加上缺蛋、缺藥，對年輕人來說，因為通膨物價成長，大家也感覺到缺錢；當然貨物的負擔率、房屋率的比例也創下歷史新高，也讓年輕人感覺到缺房；勞保也即將破產，年輕人會更覺得缺退休金。依據調查，國人退休力連續3年不及格，其中未滿30歲的、30到39歲的又偏低，只有52分，國人雖然年紀增大，越來越接近退休的年齡才剛開始準備退休金，這時候已經晚了10到20年，所以本席認為政府應該鼓勵國人立即更早地準備退休金，透過時間以及複利的效果，退休金不是1比1的增加，而是倍數的增加。","今天想跟部長分享本席辦公室的試算複利的威力，譬如勞工25歲的時候開始提6%，每年只有3萬塊的薪水，而且假設他到60歲的時候，他的薪水完全都不成長的前提之下，等於勞工每個月只要花1,800元，退休之後每個月就可以領多於6,500元，一塊錢就等於變成3.6塊錢，可是很可惜的就是勞退新制這18年來，自提的比例只有14%，每年成長率不到1%，勞動部擬定未來的3年自提目標，其實未來是每年成長大概1.5%，可是實際上這代表在2025的時候總額才17.7%，本席認為其實這還是太慢了，如果每年是1.5%的提升的話，要到20年之後才能追趕到OECD國家。你看這個表格有寫說OECD的國家的自提比率，英國的話就79%、美國51%，臺灣像我剛剛所提的，就算是2025年到17.7%，還是相當地慢，因為一般民眾所謂的financial literacy，就是理財的知識是不足的，所以我也希望部長從政策這個部分能多予關心，我是覺得要提高自提比率必須要對症下藥。本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料作出以下的圖表，觀察到2個事件，首先，像剛剛所提到的自提比率，目前為止有600萬的勞工沒有自提；第二就是低薪的困境，薪資越高，自提反而越多，所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決，可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自提比率，本席建議勞動部可以參考農退條例，勞工為自提退休金，政府應該給予更多的獎勵，農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自提搭配政府相對的matching提撥的獎勵，這已經實施2年了，自提比率就快速地提升到了27%。","接下來有請主計總處上台，然後請許部長留步好嗎？","謝謝，針對勞退相對的提撥matching scheme，我辦公室也很負責地把這個算出來來瞭解財政的支出需要多少，以本席的草案，勞工自提滿6%，政府是相對提5,000元，但本席認為這次的政策如果更積極的話，自提1%到6%都可以給予5,000塊的獎金，讓全國人民的自提比率可以提升到5成，國庫將每年支出大概180億元，相對勞保撥補的高達2,570億元的話，政府應該可以負擔的，而且勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭，這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的，我想請問主計總處對這個態度如何？"],["黃專門委員厚輯：基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔，所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體財政一併考量，可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理，以上。"],["吳委員欣盈：不好意思，你戴口罩，我沒聽清楚。"],["黃專門委員厚輯：可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理，因為可能還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量，而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題。"],["吳委員欣盈：好，所以還在考慮當中就是了？好，謝謝。","最後就是許部長想跟您說，目前15歲到29歲的青年，每年平均是3.4萬來說的話，自提6%就大約是2,000元，如果政府補助5,000元的話就等於是2.5倍的獎金，本席相信如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來，對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外就是勞動部也可以思考雇主提撥超過6%給予企業稅優，我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉，然後以整體政策的配套，希望勞動部也可以全盤考量，能提出民眾真正有感的政策，讓我們全民的退休金能提升，謝謝您。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員的提議，這個就是要增加自提的具體方法，因為這牽涉到財政，我們會跟相關部會一起討論，謝謝您。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位陳瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.57346875,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.99846875,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.55284375,"end":36.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.39659375,"end":36.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.46409375,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.987218750000004,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.814093750000005,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.626593750000005,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.27909375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.61159375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.08721875,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.82909375,"end":78.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.47846875,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.53596875000001,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.40784375000001,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.75284375000001,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.98034375,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.69971875,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.34846875,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.87971875,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.03096875,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.72909375,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.52596875,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.65596875,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.38971875000001,"end":219.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.57471875000002,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.92471875,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.69159375,"end":229.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.05409375000002,"end":233.32784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.44596875000002,"end":237.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.85034375,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.14971875,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.57846875,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.74534375,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.46221875000003,"end":264.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.35659375,"end":270.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.19971875000005,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.43159375,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.64221875000004,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.63784375,"end":274.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.65471875000003,"end":274.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.67159375,"end":274.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.73909375,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.77284375,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.59534375000004,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.28221875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.86659375,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.94659375000003,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.34596875,"end":306.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.18971875,"end":310.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.61534375,"end":317.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.83784375000005,"end":326.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.05159375,"end":328.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.43534375,"end":330.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.05096875000004,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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literacy就是財經的一些理財的知識是不足的所以我也希望說部長從政策這個部分能多於關心"},{"start":199.016,"end":225.581,"text":"那我是覺得說要提高自體比率呢必須要對症下藥那本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料做出以下的這個圖表那觀察到兩個事件就是首先像剛剛所提到的自體比率目前為止達高六百萬的勞工沒有自體那第二就是說這個低薪的困境薪資越高自體反而越多"},{"start":227.768,"end":247.453,"text":"所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自體比率那本期建議勞動部可以參考這個農退條例勞工為自體退休金政府應該給予更多的獎勵"},{"start":249.879,"end":269.931,"text":"農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自體搭配政府相對的Matching提撥的獎勵,這已經實施了兩年了,自體比率就快速提升到了27%。接下來想有請主席處上台,然後請許部長留步好嗎?主席處"},{"start":296.141,"end":309.586,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第19會"},{"start":311.147,"end":334.578,"text":"以本席的草案這個勞工部自提的百分之滿百分之六政府是相對提五千元但本席認為這次的政策如果更積極的話自提百分之一到百分之六都可以給予五千塊的獎金讓全國的人民自提比率可以提升到五成那國庫呢將每年支出大概一百八十億元"},{"start":339.45,"end":353.962,"text":"兩千五百七十億元的話政府應該可以負擔的而且就是勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的那我想請問說主計處對這個態度如何"},{"start":358.914,"end":384.721,"text":"對,基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔,所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體的財政來一起一併做考量,可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理,以上。就可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理,因為還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量,而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題。好,就是還要在,所以還在考慮當中就是了。"},{"start":385.52,"end":395.043,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":403.366,"end":422.214,"text":"補助五千元等於2.5倍獎金。本席相信,如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來,對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外,勞動部也可以思考僱主提撥超過6%給予企業的稅優。我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉,"},{"start":423.654,"end":445.854,"text":"以整體政策的配套,希望勞動部也可以全盤考量,能提出民眾真正有感的政策,讓我們全民的退休金能提升。謝謝您。好,謝謝委員的提議。這個就是要增加自體具體的方法。那我們未來跟相關部會,因為這牽涉到財政,相關部會一起來討論。謝謝您。謝謝五委員。下一位。"}]}},{"id":"149009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d60f8cd2919e083458ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322d00e2261dae0cf995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張育美","委員發言時間":"09:42:19 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09:55:23","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":784,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:55:23+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:42:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["張委員育美：（9時42分）謝謝主席。請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：張委員好。"],["張委員育美：部長早。近日有媒體把退休率當作議題，撰寫一系列的報導。由於現在醫療進步、科技發達，人人都可以成為百歲人的候選人，為預備將來的長壽生活，健康、財務、社會連結都缺一不可。根據遠見雜誌的調查，國人退休之後的養老資金主要來自於退休年金制度的有63.3%，這是複選，其次為儲蓄或定存56.3%，基金、股票等投資是50.7%，足見國人的退休準備高度仰賴政府退休年金制度。然而根據勞動部統計，勞退新制實施了18年，全臺740萬的勞工預計今年勞退自提率只有14.69%、不到15%，表示仍然有多達600萬的勞工、85%的勞工不願意自提。請問部長，勞動部是否有進一步瞭解，勞工自提意願低落的原因是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：既然這個叫自提，自願提繳就是要尊重他的意願。為什麼沒有來自提？可能第一個、他是不是經濟的負擔比較重，薪水不夠……"],["張委員育美：低薪，錢因為通膨變小。"],["許部長銘春：有些人可能自己就去找商業保險或者到市場上去投資運用，這些都有可能。基本上，我們也是儘量鼓勵自提，尤其薪資水平比較不是那麼高的員工，能夠有累積儲蓄這樣的作用。"],["張委員育美：據我所知，我大學畢業後待在外商公司就享有勞保，我忘了那時候有沒有自提率，可是外商公司就已經有這種我們提多少、雇主提多少的退休金比例制度。那時候是30年前了！"],["許部長銘春：勞退是103年施行的。"],["張委員育美：對，30年前我在外商公司的時候，它不是用勞保，是用公司的，我們拿出幾percent，我記得那時候就6%。"],["許部長銘春：對，國外的制度就是勞工要先自提，雇主相對地就會提撥，跟我們不太一樣。"],["張委員育美：對，我們公司自提，所以我們不管有沒有退休、做幾年，收入在離職之後都還不錯，這是我提醒勞動部部長的。","世界銀行指出，我們退休後所得替代率至少要達當時工作收入的六成，才能支應理想生活的品質。以2022年勞保一個月平均給付1萬8、勞退平均6,500，就是2萬4來講，估算退休後每個月年金收入不到2萬5，遠低於國人平均總薪資5萬7，我們不是說六成嗎？六成就要3萬4，我們只有2萬5，所以少了1萬塊，如果將通膨飆漲、投資市場波動等影響納入，會增加國人退休後的財務風險。對此，勞動部近來表示正在蒐集各方的意見，兼顧企業經營之下，所謂企業經營就是怎樣去撥補，朝向勞工退休保障有更好的制度。再問部長，目前有哪些調整方向呢？現在退休後的收入都不到2萬5，可是我們大概需要的是3萬4，差了差不多1萬塊。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在其實算一算……"],["張委員育美：我們現在2022年的平均。"],["許部長銘春：其實勞保還要再加勞退喔。"],["張委員育美：對呀，勞退……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我跟你說，我們的所得替代率……"],["張委員育美：勞退6,500嘛。因為很多人不提撥，剛剛講85%的人不提撥，所以他以提撥0來算。85%的人不提撥，當然有提撥的是不只啦！"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，自提的另外一回事，我們有固提，固提6%是一定要提的喔，所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加勞退……"],["張委員育美：我知道，但是自提沒有就……"],["許部長銘春：所以我們算一算，大概如果30年的勞工……"],["張委員育美：自提可以0啊！可以6加6，但是員工可以0啊！85%的人是0耶！自己提呀！雇主6%，我知道。"],["許部長銘春：我跟你說，我們的所得替代率如果以平均月投保薪資目前來講大概3萬7……"],["張委員育美：六成才夠。"],["許部長銘春：我們的所得替代率有68%，我們的退休可以領的是3萬4,386。"],["張委員育美：哪裡，2022年退休領的是1萬8加6,500呀！加起來耶！"],["許部長銘春：你是用平均薪資，我們是用投保薪資來看……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：可能我們比較的基礎不太一樣。委員，我們其實如果以勞保加勞退，一般我們假設工作30年，其實我們的所得替代率沒有比別人低，沒有比OECD的國家……"],["張委員育美：現在多少？"],["許部長銘春：大概68%。"],["張委員育美：60%嘛，一定要六成。"],["許部長銘春：我們有到68%耶！我這個資料再給您，委員。"],["張委員育美：你把你現在的數字給我，因為我們是摘錄2022年勞保一個月平均給付1萬8加上勞退6,500，是這樣算的，這是資料上的。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的重點在這裡，我們是103年才施行勞退……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：我們到現在還不到10年，所以勞退平均月領6,500……"],["張委員育美：對。"],["許部長銘春：可是你如果算30年就不只啦！以30年來算，你的再加20年進去，平均月領不只這樣啦！"],["張委員育美：但我們現在就有人退休了，2萬5還是不夠……"],["許部長銘春：我是說比較基礎不能……就要看，你看國外可能是……"],["張委員育美：比較久以前。"],["許部長銘春：比較久了，但是我們勞退新制是103年才開始。"],["張委員育美：對，才開始。"],["許部長銘春：所以我們會得出一個勞退平均月領6,500……"],["張委員育美：勞退新制18年了耶！"],["許部長銘春：對不起，勞退新制18年了，但是也不到30年，我修正一下，但也不到30年。"],["張委員育美：好啦，不到30年，我知道，因為退休大概是工作25年以後就可以退休，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，但是我們有……"],["張委員育美：好，不到30年。如果30年的話，勞退平均就不會6,500而已，你的意思是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：委員，我會把資料給你，我們一樣算30年，如果以我們現在的勞退來算的話，我們的所得替代率沒有比較低……"],["張委員育美：要六成！"],["許部長銘春：有到六成，到68%。"],["張委員育美：你說到六成八，請你把資料給我。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["張委員育美：有達到那最好，對不對？我們的勞退只有18年，不到30年，所以勞退平均當然就只有6,500，你說如果30年就更高的意思，是不是？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["張委員育美：你的意思說有達六成八，我們的替代率是要六成，所以請勞動部長把資料送到我辦公室，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，可以。"],["張委員育美：接著我再問，我要談女性對於經濟的貢獻，事實上女性對於企業的影響力早在各領域中展現，根據臺灣女董協會女性治理白皮書所發表，在台灣上市公司28個產業當中，僅有3個產業沒有女性領導人，在疫情期間由女性所領導的企業仍穩健成長，與整體產業相比毫不遜色，可見女力對於經濟的影響已經全面擴散。我們知道哈佛大學有一個教授叫戈丁，他認為來瞭解女性勞動市場是非常charming的，是非常重要而且迷人的。","回顧我國女性勞參率，女性在未結婚之前很高，未結婚之前是89.9%，可是結婚之後呢？我們來看，從1980年的39.21%一路成長到2013年的五成，目前是51.5%，日本、韓國是53.5%和53.3%，比我們高差不多2%，新加坡六成四，北歐國家是七成一，數據上來看我們近一半的女性在30歲以後沒有投入勞動職場，請問部長有沒有瞭解原因啊？結婚之前很高，跟男性差不多，大概89.9%，你看，30歲以後突然往下降，什麼原因呢？"],["許部長銘春：主要就是婦女在國內結婚之後育兒的責任大部分還是……"],["張委員育美：為什麼日本、韓國還是比我們高？53.3%。"],["許部長銘春：婦女在就業這個議題必須考慮到育兒還有他的家庭照顧的問題。"],["張委員育美：日本、韓國也是要照顧孩子，日本人更是在家裡照顧孩子。"],["許部長銘春：所以我們這個部分目前也在努力，讓這些婦女再就業，能夠容易來銜接重返職場，也要鼓勵雇主僱用而且提供友善的職場，讓她能夠將工作跟家庭兼顧。我們現在有很多的計畫都在推動，我們希望把整個婦女的勞參率能夠提高，各國的經驗我們都有來參酌。"],["張委員育美：部長你說的是二度就業，我覺得不是二度就業，就像醫療應該prevetion……"],["許部長銘春：我說的是再就業……"],["張委員育美：再就業就是婦女再就業計畫，你花了27億，對不對？希望10萬婦女能夠回來再就業，可是我覺得應該是讓他不要離職，如果離職你要回來再就業是很難的喔！所以我們30歲以後變成51.5%，輸給日本、韓國，我是覺得比較要強調的是，你剛剛有講對了，就是友善的環境，比如育兒的環境，還有家庭照顧、老人家的環境，日本為什麼就職率比我們高，你知道嗎？就是30歲以上的女性就職率、在職率比我們高，是因為日本實施了長期照顧來照顧老人，所以不是只有你的問題，衛福部也是要關心的，經濟部都要關心，它實施了長照保險法讓我們老有所養，小孩子也有所養。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，像我們在性工法裡面也有育嬰留職停薪……"],["張委員育美：對，這個是友善的環境……"],["許部長銘春：目的是希望他續留職場，但是有些婦女可能還是會選擇在小朋友幼小的時候能夠多多陪伴，像這種情況我們也必須尊重意願，但是如果讓她能夠順利重返職場，而且能夠銜接職場，這個部分就是我們現在的婦女再就業計畫裡面一直在努力，能夠讓婦女在職場上的勞參率能夠提高。"],["張委員育美：我的意思是說，同樣是亞洲的日本、韓國，他們的在職率就比我們高2%，所以我們還是要去學習，日本很重視，他們不是很多女性結婚之後在家裡照顧孩子嗎？可是勞參率還比你高，新加坡更高，我們不是都一樣是亞洲國家，東方文化不是都很像嗎？以教育孩子為主，所以我覺得應該建議勞動部要關心托育資源的布建以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業，你說對嗎？所以不是只有你的問題而已，不是勞動部，還要結合其他部門。"],["許部長銘春：對，謝謝。"],["張委員育美：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：我們來努力，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員育美代）：下一位吳欣盈委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.30034375,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.70596875,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.540343750000005,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.62659375,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.14721875000001,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.16409375,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.18096875,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.92159375,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.89596875000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.49846875,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.56159375,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":126.62721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.93971875000001,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.08284375000001,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.32721875000001,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.12346875,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.95034375,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.00096875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.30659375000002,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.62284375000002,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.38596875000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.23346875000001,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.67221875,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.06846875000002,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.18659375000001,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.43471875,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.32034375,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.02034375000002,"end":176.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.86409375000002,"end":181.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.18409375000002,"end":181.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.55534375000002,"end":181.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.75784375,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.82534375,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.70159375,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.28534375,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.38784375000003,"end":262.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.50034375,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.51284375,"end":267.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.07784375,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.14096875,"end":274.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.29284375000003,"end":270.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.97971875,"end":274.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.85721875,"end":279.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.68409375000005,"end":277.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.46846875,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.15596875,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.72971875,"end":286.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.65284375000005,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":288.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":289.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.30221875,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.57221875,"end":292.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.16659375,"end":298.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.10659375,"end":303.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.15721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«勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":154.673,"end":156.774,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十三條之一"},{"start":177.163,"end":177.704,"text":"勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":197.14,"end":216.496,"text":"而替代率至少要達六成你當時工作收入的六成才能支應你想生活的品質我們以2022年勞保一個月平均我們給付一萬八勞退平均這個六千五就兩萬四來講呢那估算推薦後每個月年收入不到兩萬五"},{"start":218.278,"end":233.454,"text":"這遠低於國人平均總薪資五萬七嘛我們不是說六成嗎六成就要三萬四那我們只有兩萬五所以少了一萬塊那通過膨脹投資市場波動這個影響納入呢增加國人退休後的財務風險"},{"start":235.636,"end":261.612,"text":"對此勞動部近來就有表示正在收集各方的意見兼顧企業經營之下企業經營就是這個我們怎樣的去一些的撥補朝向勞工退休保障有更好的研議制度那再問部長目前有哪些調整方向呢兩萬五嘛現在收入都不到兩萬五就退休後可是我們大概需要是三萬四差了差不多一萬塊"},{"start":264.676,"end":279.413,"text":"對,二、委員我們現在其實算一算有啊,對啊,我們現在平均二、二二年的平均我們其實勞保還要再加勞退喔對啊,我們算一算,對,報告委員我跟你說我們的所得替代勞退六千五嘛"},{"start":280.785,"end":302.457,"text":"因為很多人不提撥,剛剛講85人不提撥,所以他以提撥0來算啦85%不提撥,當然有提撥是不止啦不是,報告委員,字體是另外一回事,我們有固體固體6%是一定要提的喔,所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加保退字體可以0啊,可以6加6,但是員工可以0啊,85%是0欸"},{"start":309.949,"end":333.037,"text":"自己提啊!勞工顧主六趴啦我知道我跟你說我們的所得替代率喔如果以平均月頭保薪資目前來講六成才夠我們所得替代率有百分之六十八我們的退休齁可以領的是三萬四千三百八十六哪裡退休二零二二年是一萬八加六千五啊一二零二年這個啊加起來勒"},{"start":339.383,"end":342.865,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":367.128,"end":368.29,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":384.91,"end":408.463,"text":"報告委我們的重點在這裡啦我們是103才施行勞退啦所以我們到現在還不到十年啦所以勞退的平均月領六千五啦可是你有算三十年不止啦你把三十年再加二十年進去不止你平均月領不止這樣啊那我們現在就有人退休啦那兩萬五還是不夠所以我說比較基礎不能就要看啦"},{"start":410.084,"end":421.378,"text":"國外他可能是比較久了但是我們勞退薪資是103才開始所以我們會得出一個勞退平均月領6000元勞退薪資18年了沒有啦"},{"start":425.967,"end":430.328,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案案。adequate to 30 years."},{"start":455.236,"end":459.04,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":476.098,"end":490.293,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生�"},{"start":494.457,"end":522.559,"text":"女性自理白皮書的上司公司中28個產業只有三個產業沒有女性領導人在疫情期間穩健成長女性領導人企業整個產業比是毫不遜色可見女力對於經濟影響已經全面擴散我們知道哈佛大學有個教授叫戈丁他認為來了解女性勞動市場是非常charming的是非常重要而且迷人的"},{"start":523.96,"end":527.561,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":544.865,"end":570.922,"text":"一路成長到這個五成2013年的五成目前是51.5日本韓國是53.5和53.3比我們高差不多2%那新加坡六成四那北歐國家是七成一所以數據上來看我們在二十三十歲以後近一半的女性沒有投入勞動職場請問部長有沒有了解原因啊"},{"start":571.903,"end":572.965,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":584.363,"end":587.145,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":610.618,"end":624.432,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境"},{"start":634.282,"end":655.213,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案》案。netesi,你說的是二度就業﹖我覺得不是二度就業﹖就像醫療是應該的﹖我說的再就業﹖對﹖再就業就是說父女再就業你花了27億嘛對不對﹖希望10萬父女能夠回到再就業﹖可是我覺得應該是說讓他不要離職﹖如果離職你要回來再就業是很難的喔"},{"start":656.013,"end":659.355,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":683.707,"end":707.987,"text":"在職率比我們高是因為日本的實施了這個長期照顧那照顧老人所以不是只有你的問題那個我們衛福部也有問題也是要關心的經濟部都要關心的他實施了長照保險法讓我們的這個勞有所要小孩子也有所要我們在那個新公法裡面有暈流子停薪"},{"start":708.948,"end":711.649,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":735.854,"end":742.042,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":754.942,"end":782.841,"text":"兩種國家我們不是一樣都一樣的這種東方文化都很像嗎以教育孩子為主所以我覺得我應該要建議勞動部要關心這個托育資源的部件以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業你說對嗎所以不是只有你的問題而已不是勞動部還要結合其他部門對好謝謝部長我們來努力"}]}},{"id":"149008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6eaf7c36dfa1cca24ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322ea10da310c6467805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:30:54 - 09:42:10","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":676,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:42:10+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:30:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時30分）謝謝主席。有請勞動部許部長，還有勞動部發展署蔡署長、基金運用局蘇局長。"],["主席：有請行政單位跟部長。"],["賴委員惠員：部長早。"],["許部長銘春：委員你好。"],["賴委員惠員：今天我們在審查勞工退休金條例這一個議題之前，想就移工的政策如何更友善來跟部長做一個討論。我們知道缺工時代的來臨，不只臺灣缺工，其實在我們鄰近的國家、全世界都面臨到相同的問題。勞動部對於缺工的議題已經檢討了很多次，包括開放農業移工或旅宿業移工，甚至在上個月，我們和印度簽署MOU的狀況，我們知道那個是一個假訊息，但是友善的移工聘僱流程怎麼樣才可以讓勞、雇主達到雙贏的狀態，是我們非常關心的。","針對不久前的一個遊行，新聞特別指出，直聘中心只專注在公文的行政程序上面，沒有顧慮到勞工生活適應的輔導，事實上是不是這個樣子？它也講到翻譯人員也缺乏，甚至有匿名的移工表示，在全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭，唯一的服務就是每一周固定通知你要去簽名，不然你就沒有辦法繼續拿到聘僱函。所以移工團體走上街頭提出五大訴求，包含政府跟政府直接聘僱、就服站雙語人員的增加、直聘中心整合各機關文件，甚至它特別強調文件流程的簡化，還有函示法規需要多語言的資訊。其實這個都是針對友善移工服務能量不足的訴求，我想在這裡請教部長，針對簡化流程，還有政府對政府直接聘僱，我們如何來處理他們提出來的這些問題？你怎麼執行呢？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，譬如說流程簡化，或是他們希望提供更多元的協助，這個我們都會來精進，但是我也必須說明，其實我們現在的直聘中心也提供很多多元的服務，還有便捷的申辦程序給直聘中心的使用者，當然不是每個制度都會讓大家滿意，但是有不足的部分我們都願意來檢討。"],["賴委員惠員：這個直聘中心是在今年11月成立的嘛？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，早就成立了，民國97年就成立了。委員，您剛剛講11月，那是移工留才久用專案服務中心，那個是針對中階的，我們這個移工的直聘是97年就成立了。"],["賴委員惠員：全國只有一個？"],["許部長銘春：全國目前就是一個，它就是一個行政協助，因為基本上現在我們的雇主聘僱移工本來就是多元的，他可以委託仲介，他也可以來直聘……"],["賴委員惠員：是多元化的嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是，多元化的。"],["賴委員惠員：是不是就是針對他們講的？因為這個大概是一個超過500人的抗議行動，是不是就像他們講的，這個直聘中心裡頭也沒有翻譯人員，文件又非常複雜？部長，我跟你講，會後提供資料給我。"],["許部長銘春：我可以提供資料給你，我跟委員報告，其實我們直聘中心的服務滿意度是達97.6%，當然我們現在申辦案件也都是全面線上了，移工的電話諮詢我們也都提供……"],["賴委員惠員：好，部長，沒有問題……"],["許部長銘春：但是有不足的部分，我們都會儘量把它做好。"],["賴委員惠員：我再針對製造業雇主聘僱制度的檢查，我特別把這個制度的討論拉出來。現在全臺移工大概接近75萬人，甚至更超過了，到目前是有多少人？部長，到目前全國的移工有多少人？"],["許部長銘春：75萬。"],["賴委員惠員：好，那是不是署長你來回答？我們全國的移工有75萬人，其中製造業就占了4.7萬人，尤其是看護工，這個是非常非常的重要，他接近3萬人，其他的還有8,000人，這個我們就不管了，可是在8.4萬的失聯移工裡面，越南籍占的最多，我就要請教部長，你們有特別講到製造業雇主聘僱制度，就是如果他的移工跑掉了，你們要把期限從6個月縮短成3個月，還要增加移工名額來作為鼓勵，但這3個月其實還是太長了，你要知道很多製造業工廠的生產線是一刻都不能停的，所以有沒有機會從3個月變為1個月呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，當初因為這個涉及就業服務法的修法，原來是6個月，後來基於缺工的情況，我們把它縮短為3個月，這個會持續檢討啦！其實這3個月的空窗期我們還是在協助，它有兩個面向，第一個，因為現在國內在一些就業的推介上，其實我們有在努力；另外，我們最近有一個新的制度，就是如果他去承接其他轉出的製造業移工，就可以多5%的名額，這部分是可以填補這樣的缺口。"],["賴委員惠員：所以這是一個鼓勵，已經非常明顯了，可以從6個月縮短成3個月，這是我們一個政策性的鼓勵，只是這3個月可以不可以再縮短成1個月呢？你們是不是可以再跨部會討論？這個是本席對你們的要求。","再來，今天我們也針對勞退金的自提可不可以自選來進行討論。就像剛才部長特別提到的，其實每個月雇主已經自己提撥6%了，然後勞工本身也提撥了6%，其實政府的美意非常好，我們希望勞工在他老年的退休裡頭能得到一個很好的保障。可是相對的，我們看了很多很多的資料後，我不得不佩服我們勞動部，基金的部分應該請局長上來報告一下，你對你自己這樣的投資滿不滿意？你還可以保障我們勞工有百分之四點幾的收益，你算是很厲害的！"],["蘇局長郁卿：謝謝委員，我們會持續努力，也會持續精進。"],["賴委員惠員：你手上有配置多少的市場分析人員呢？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們人員相當有限，我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員，同時因為我們人員有限，我們也希望借助國內外很好的資產管理公司來提供協助。"],["賴委員惠員：這個是在後端，我現在是在講前端，前端就是你們怎麼樣慎選並委託投資公司來幫我們操盤，我想知道怎樣的程序？你怎麼有辦法神準的給勞工4%以上的收益呢？"],["蘇局長郁卿：有關國內外受託機構的評選，我們有一定的程序，也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選。針對投資政策，我們一直秉持穩健的原則來進行，希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益，所以我們也不會只看短，而是會看整個趨勢。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我再請教，當然你一定有信心幫勞工爭取到超過4%的獲利，但有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自提呢？有機會嗎？其實自提風險是很高的。"],["許部長銘春：目前自提沒有風險，因為沒有自選。"],["賴委員惠員：因為沒有自提，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：沒有自選。"],["賴委員惠員：對，只有自選。"],["許部長銘春：現在是鼓勵自提。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["許部長銘春：但是我們的基金願景就是統一投資收益，所以現在的自選完全沒有風險，一定是保證收益。這個部分我們……"],["賴委員惠員：所以一定保證嘛？賠錢還是政府來照顧。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們現在透過各種管道，包括也進到大學。因為學生畢業以後都要工作，我們提前進到大學讓學生瞭解，以後你工作可以自提，自提是儲蓄的性質，這樣沒有風險而且政府又保證投資收益，他未來可以長期累積退休的老本。我們會用各種的方式讓他們瞭解自提的好處。"],["賴委員惠員：憑良心講，我個人還是贊成現階段所有的政策。如果我個人可以選擇，我當然是可以選擇我自己運用，但我還是贊成現有的自提自選，希望就像你們的政策。"],["許部長銘春：就是自提，然後我們來投資？"],["賴委員惠員：當然，就是自提由勞動部來投資。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，有請張育美委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.687843750000003,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.75784375,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.79909375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.937843750000003,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.00471875,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.143468750000004,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.80409375,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.53534375000001,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.97721875,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.36409375000001,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.41409375,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.71909375,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.75971875000002,"end":165.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.59409375,"end":176.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.62784375,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.28596875000002,"end":179.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.90159375000002,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.08596875,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.03346875000003,"end":200.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.53971875000002,"end":201.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.72096875000003,"end":203.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.56034375000002,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.57221875000002,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.53784375,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.36034375000003,"end":215.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.56159375000001,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.38409375,"end":224.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.57284375,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.14221875,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.88346875000002,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.60284375,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.02471875000003,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.71659375,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.23971875,"end":257.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.30721875,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.69534375,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.04534375000003,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.13346875,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.99284375,"end":272.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.79846875000004,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.81534375,"end":273.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.69659375000003,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.33721875000003,"end":283.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.96971875,"end":284.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.00346875,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.96534375000005,"end":305.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.75846875,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.48096875000005,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.53534375000004,"end":310.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.53096875,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.78721875,"end":370.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.62284375,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.74784375,"end":413.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.92909375000005,"end":382.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.37159375000005,"end":385.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.82659375000003,"end":389.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.910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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":113.479,"end":141.504,"text":"全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭唯一的服務就是每一週固定的通知你要去簽名不然你就沒有辦法繼續再那個拿到這個聘僱函那所以這個移工團體他走上街了他就是有一個五大的一個訴求他就講說是不是政府跟政府直接的一個聘僱然後就福站的一個酸乙仁眼的一個增加還是職聘中心整合各機關文件"},{"start":143.224,"end":165.242,"text":"甚至他特別強調就是文件流程的一個簡化還有就是韓式法規需要他一個多語言的一個資訊其實這個都是針對的友善移工的一個服務能量不足的一個訴求那我想在這裡請教那個部長就是說針對的這個簡化那個流程還有就是我們"},{"start":166.183,"end":169.369,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":177.335,"end":202.426,"text":"二、委員其實有些比如說流程簡化或是他們希望提供更多的多元的協助這個其實我們都會來精進但是我也必須說你說其實我們現在的職聘中心其實他是也提供很多多元服務還有這個便捷的申辦程序給使用我們職聘中心的那當然不是每個"},{"start":203.629,"end":205.691,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":231.918,"end":245.75,"text":"全國目前就是一個因為他就是一個行政協助啦因為基本上現在我們的僱主他聘僱移工他本來就是多元他可以委託仲介他也可以來執聘是多元化的嘛那是不是就是針對他們講的"},{"start":247.091,"end":248.012,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":264.31,"end":268.052,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條之一"},{"start":281.7,"end":304.759,"text":"但是有不足的部分我們都會盡量來把那我在針對的製造業的一個僱主的一個聘僱的制度的一個檢查我特別就是說把這個制度的一個討論拉出來那現在全台的移工有大概接近75萬了甚至還是更超過了到目前到目前是有多少人"},{"start":307.193,"end":310.894,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":338.821,"end":345.748,"text":"四連的移工裡頭,當然我們知道葉蘭吉佔了最多。我就要請教部長,你們特別講到製造業僱主聘僱的制度,如果他的移工跑掉了,"},{"start":357.72,"end":376.527,"text":"立法院第10屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環"},{"start":380.828,"end":394.513,"text":"而跟委員報告齁因為當初這個因為涉及救衛服務法的修法齁那原來是六個月那後來就是因為基於這個缺口下我們縮短三個月這個會持續檢討啦齁但是就是說這個三個月的空中期其實我們還是在協助還是在協助"},{"start":396.454,"end":398.216,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":420.595,"end":433.325,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文"},{"start":445.934,"end":472.97,"text":"就像剛才部長你特別提到了就是說其實我們每個月就是已經雇主自己提撥6%了然後我們自己本身勞工也提撥了6%那我們其實政府的美意非常好我們希望就是說勞工在他的一個老年的一個退休裡頭是得到了一個很好的一個保障可是相對的就是說我們看到了很多很多的一個資料裡頭"},{"start":473.971,"end":475.351,"text":"二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":495.559,"end":521.719,"text":"謝謝委員我們持續努力我們也會持續精進那你手上有多少的這樣子的一個就是在這個市場的一個分析分析人員這樣的一個配置我們人員相當有限那我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員同時因為我們人員有限我們也希望藉助國內還有國外的很好的資產管理公司來提供協助"},{"start":522.697,"end":544.629,"text":"所以你們還是有這個是在後端喔我現在是講說前端前端就是說你們怎麼樣去慎選就是說那個委託我們的這個投資公司來幫我們就是操盤我想知道這個怎樣的一個程序你怎麼有辦法這樣省準的就是說可以給勞工4%以上的一個收益呢"},{"start":548.379,"end":572.955,"text":"有關國內外的受託機構的評選我們有一定的程序然後我們也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選那投資的政策部分我們一直秉持就是穩健的原則來進行那我們希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益所以我們也不會說只看短我們會看整個趨勢這樣"},{"start":574.056,"end":589.425,"text":"好,看整個趨勢,部長在這裡我再請教就是說當然你一定有信心就是幫勞工爭取到超過4%的一個獲利啦那有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自體呢?有機會嗎?其實這個自體風險是很高的"},{"start":593.223,"end":622.325,"text":"目前自體風險沒有風險自體因為沒有自選因為沒有自體嘛對不對沒有自選對只有自選現在是鼓勵自體對但是還是齁我們就是基金用局統一投資收益啦所以現在的自選完全沒有風險是一定是保證收益是齁所以這個部分所以一定保證嘛就是賠錢還是政府來那個照顧你對我們現在透過各種管道啦齁包括我們現在也進到大學因為讓學生畢業以後大家都要工作"},{"start":622.705,"end":626.706,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":640.931,"end":665.396,"text":"我們會用各種的方式去把這個自體的好處來讓他們了解。其實部長憑良心講,如果我個人的話,我還是贊成現階段所有的一個政策。如果是我個人的話,我可以選擇的話,我當然是可以選擇我自己,我還是贊成現有的一個自體自選,還是希望就是向你們的政策。"},{"start":666.325,"end":666.465,"text":"自體由勞動部來投資"}]}},{"id":"149007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6e2b54716803d258aab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a0322617961a7114e88395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:20:39 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09:30:48","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":609,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:30:48+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:20:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時20分）謝謝主席，我們請許部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。我們今天要討論勞工退休金條例的這個部分，確實坊間現在有非常多的聲音，就是到底怎麼樣可以對個人的退休生活保障最多，所以剛剛吳玉琴委員也在在提到了自提自選，這是一個很大的題目，覺得我有能力而且有意願，那我能不能夠有更多、更好、更多元的選擇，這是一種。","坊間個人的聲音是一種之外，其實在立法院當中，民眾黨黨團今年9月也提案要提高勞退的雇主強制提撥率從現行的6%直接到9%，但民眾黨主席柯文哲在政見發表會卻說他不會強迫提高，而是要提高企業的租稅優惠。在這樣的狀況下，我是想請教部長，雖然我看過你們用新聞稿的方式對這個提議有一些看法，但你可不可以在備詢台上再告訴我們，針對現在立法院有不同黨團提出了不同的聲音，第一個是提高強制提撥率，第二個是不見得要用強迫的方式，而是用企業稅率優惠的方式，那你怎麼看？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我想每一個黨團或每個委員所提案的都是站在希望……"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家都是討論嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但勞動部總是有看法，你覺得可行嗎？我們今天要審理。"],["許部長銘春：我們是認為，目前的階段可能還是比較適宜說我們用鼓勵的，鼓勵勞雇雙方，其實那是最低嘛！"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！現在雇主6%是最低嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，最低，其實你還可以再提高。而現在也有，我們施行到現在，雖然不多，確實也有雇主就是比6%還要高。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是因為你有鼓勵？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你現在的鼓勵方式是什麼？人家說要用稅率優惠，那我們哩？"],["許部長銘春：當然稅率……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現行的方式是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：稅率的優惠，因為這個會牽涉到可能不是勞動部的權責。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這會牽涉到非常多的部會。"],["許部長銘春：對，所以這個如果要……"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且需要精算吧！"],["許部長銘春：要精算，這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：要精算吧！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你到底是提高多少以後會產生多少的效益……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：以至於你要用多少的稅率……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：減少了以後又會造成國庫多少的進出帳不一樣的部分。"],["許部長銘春：我就說這會牽涉到整體財政的問題、稅賦的問題，所以這個部分我們必須就是跨部會，如果針對這個議題要處理，一定是跨部會要來討論，而且更……"],["蘇委員巧慧：但你支持，鼓勵的方向……"],["許部長銘春：對，我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實我們大家這幾年都討論得非常多，這也不是獨創的意見。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們當然會認同說這個是保障，對勞工的權益、對他的退休生活更有保障，但是怎麼更細緻、怎麼對於這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那你認為這其中的可行和不可行，直接從6%提高到9%的部分呢？"],["許部長銘春：我是認為不能說一下子就講一個數字，這個必須大家去做一些討論之後才能夠……"],["蘇委員巧慧：勞動部有算過嗎？因為人家黨團都提案了，你有算過從6%直接提高到9%造成的影響是會多大、有多少人會受影響，然後數字是多少？"],["許部長銘春：提1%增加的雇主負擔是31.7億，應該是1個月吧！只要提高1%，對雇主的負擔……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我看到你們的回應，勞動部是表示，以今年6月底勞退新制平均提繳工資4萬3,922元，雇主是740.4萬的勞工提繳勞退金計算的話，如果提高了1個百分點，雇主1年新增加是390億元的法定負擔。"],["許部長銘春：對，1個月31.7億，1年是390億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以直接從6%到9%，要增加1,170億。"],["許部長銘春：對，1,170億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個分擔下去，每個人要負擔的其實也是相當之大，所以會影響的人數是多少？我認為這些東西，我們覺得如果現在勞動部的方向認為是還可以保留的，其實你在審查的過程中，你應該要把資料拿出來，讓大家能夠理解，因為你用總體數字的狀況，大家可能不會有感覺，大家會覺得很好啊！雇主多拿一點，我們的保障就更多一點，沒有問題啊！大家會朝這個方向去想，因為總統大選嘛，最近有很多提出來的政策都是這樣，乍看之下都覺得好像很好，但是精算下去以後，你就會發現其實它的數值差距非常大，影響的層面也是非常廣，而且繞了一圈，最後影響的還是你個人，你自己還是會受影響啊！所以這種我們稱之為包著糖衣毒藥的政策，這個東西你一定需要解釋，解釋雖然很龐雜，可是你還是需要解釋。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我覺得今天如果我們會進行到審查，我要求勞動部就這些部分的數字、影響的範圍應該要能夠提出來，我覺得大家這樣才能客觀討論，不然我們也會覺得雇主提高很好啊！但你不知道那個很好的後面受到了多少的影響，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是第一個，所以要求勞動部在審查的過程中，必須要提出這些數字，這是關於我們今天勞工退休金審查的部分。另外一個也想跟部長這邊請教，我們現在有一個是僑外生來臺就學的部分，其實是越來越多，其中又以越南成長的最多，越南、馬來西亞其實都是現在的大宗，我有兩個部分，上一次因為時間的關係來不及跟部長就教，比較細緻一點，想請問你一下，既然我們鼓勵這些僑外生，尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到臺灣就學，而且看起來是有成效的，現在人數都是達到數千人，我看馬來西亞今年有5,253人，印尼有2,675人，越南也有到2,331人，其實是非常的高額。光是這三個國家就近萬，那麼有沒有留下來工作的？有吧？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：留下來工作的是多少？"],["許部長銘春：我請主管的單位跟委員報告。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，目前大概每年跟我們提出申請畢業後的工作，大概6,000人左右。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！為什麼是6,000人？因為你只開放6,000人啊！"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["許部長銘春：沒有，報告委員……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊！不是嗎？大家現在就是在討論這個額度啊！因為這個工作評點許可名額是從109年的2,500名、110年4,500名，再到111年、112年，現在是6,000名，我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分。沒關係，我們可以再討論，也許我跟您調的資料不夠精確，我就希望你給我更好的資料，我這邊收到的資料是這樣子，我們也問了很多僑外生，等一下部長可以回答沒有關係。其實來臺就學的僑外生越來越多，越來越多的僑外生也覺得臺灣很好，他甚至想留下來工作，但在申請工作的過程當中有名額的限制，現在的名額開放到6,000名了，可是既然你是歡迎他們來，你何必要有這個限制呢？有關名額，我先跟你討論就是這一點。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，我先說明一下，那個6,000的名額是國發會，它每年針對僑外生的留用有名額的限制，但是我跟委員報告，國發會如果認為需要再增加，我們通通是配合的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在這個題目上面，你的意思是勞動部是末端、你是配合國發會？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是你要反映啊！"],["許部長銘春：但是我也同意未來這個可能……","其實我們在跨部會討論也曾經提出就不要有限額了，未來我們是基於鼓勵……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有啦，我覺得你雖然是末端，但是如果是這樣，我希望勞動部這邊可以做一個調查，變成給國發會的參考，就是僑外生留下來很好，對臺灣的經濟有幫助，對我們國家互相之間的邦誼也有幫助。能不能請你做一個調查，發現各行各業的狀況？而且這些留下來的僑外生，其實不只是初階人力，他們都是技術人才……"],["許部長銘春：是屬於中階的技術人才。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是很好的技術人才，大家不要誤會了，以為他是刻板印象中的外籍移工，完全不是這樣的狀況。"],["許部長銘春：是，不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我覺得這個名額是應該可以討論的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為處於末端的勞動部應該要提供資料給國發會。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，最後，因為占了人家的時間，我只要講一個就好了，我們在鼓勵僑外生來的網站是有一站式的網站，然後是多語式的，可是當僑外生要留下來，能夠找工作、創業，這就屬於勞動部了，但勞動部在網站上面並沒有這種一站式資訊，也沒有多語的部分，我今天不再占用時間，謝謝主席給我時間，我也請勞動部可以對我的辦公室提出一個資料說明，我要求改進，在僑外生留用以及創業的這個部分，我希望有一站式的諮詢管道以及多語言，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：可以，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請賴惠員賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":5.549093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.92409375,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.69409375,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.55659375,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.50471875000001,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.85596875,"end":94.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.23784375000001,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.80221875000001,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.76409375,"end":118.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.47659375,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":124.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.04096875,"end":128.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.21346875,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.47909375,"end":140.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.26784375,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.58284375,"end":143.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.36721875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.50221875,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.67096875000001,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.92409375,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.94096875,"end":144.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.41346875000002,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.97034375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.03784375,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.76346875000002,"end":151.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.78034375000001,"end":146.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.54346875000002,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.37034375000002,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.07846875,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.12471875,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.98909375000002,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.81159375000001,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.81096875,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.14846875,"end":166.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.51096875000002,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.75096875,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.78471875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.17284375,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.88159375,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.74034375000002,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.93409375000002,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.11721875,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.82534375,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.53284375,"end":227.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.86034375000003,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.61471875,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.61784375000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.83284375000002,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.00971875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.56221875000003,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.67971875,"end":269.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.24221875,"end":282.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.50721875,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.70534375,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.59096875,"end":277.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.09284375000004,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28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«勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":181.594,"end":201.585,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會立法院第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立法院立"},{"start":210.09,"end":218.299,"text":"認為不能就是說一下子就講一個數字啦,這個必須大家去做一些討論之後,才能夠...這個我想對我們的"},{"start":233.663,"end":248.658,"text":"提一趴增加的那個僱主的負擔是31.7億一年一個月一個月吧應該是一個月吧你只要提高一趴對僱主的那個"},{"start":249.699,"end":274.173,"text":"我看到你們的回憶碼勞動部是表示說以今年六月底勞退薪至平均提繳工資四萬三千九百二十二元僱主是七百四十點四萬的這個勞工提繳勞退金計算的話如果提高了一個百分點僱主一年薪增加是三百九十億元的法定負擔一個月三十一啦三十一點七一年是三百九十億"},{"start":274.733,"end":275.894,"text":"三、委員三百九十一、委員一千一百七十一、委員一千一百七十一等"},{"start":295.967,"end":297.769,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":323.644,"end":343.833,"text":"而影響的層面也是非常的廣而且繞了一圈最後影響的還是你個人你自己還是會受影響到所以我們稱之為這種叫做包著糖衣毒藥的政策這個東西你一定需要解釋解釋雖然很龐雜可是你還是需要解釋所以我覺得今天如果我們會進行到審查的部分的話我要求勞動部就這些部分數字影響的範圍應該要能夠提出來我覺得大家這樣才能客觀討論"},{"start":349.795,"end":352.156,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第三十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案。"},{"start":365.581,"end":371.504,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":387.452,"end":402.819,"text":"既然我們鼓勵這些橋外生尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到了臺灣就學而且看起來是有成效的現在人數都是達到數千人現在的話我看馬來西亞今年的話有5253人那印尼的話有2675人越南也有到2331人其實是非常非常的高額"},{"start":412.383,"end":414.303,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":437.708,"end":444.494,"text":"你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊不是嗎大家現在就是在討論這個額度啊因為我們現在這個工作評點許可名額的話是從109年的2500名110年4500名再到111、112年現在是6000名啊那我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分因為我沒有關係我們可以再討論啦也許我的資料齁跟您調的不夠精確那我就希望你給我更好的資料"},{"start":464.671,"end":471.528,"text":"我這邊收到的資料是這樣子就是我們也是問了很多橋外生等一下布朗你可以回答沒有關係就是"},{"start":472.911,"end":496.681,"text":"喬外森其實是來臺就學越來越多越來越多的喬外森也覺得臺灣很好他甚至想留下來工作但在申請工作的過程當中有一個名額的限制那現在的名額現在開放到六千了好可是如果你既然是歡迎他們來的話你何必要有這個限制呢這個名額我先跟你討論就這一點這個謝謝委員齁我先說明一下那個六千的名額齁"},{"start":497.361,"end":502.784,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":520.254,"end":522.356,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":537.449,"end":564.582,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":564.642,"end":567.125,"text":"最後因為佔人家的時間我只要講一個就好了我們喬外森在鼓勵喬外森來的這個網站是有一站式的網站然後是多語式的可是我們這個當喬外森要留下來能夠找工作創業這就屬於勞動部了啦"},{"start":580.979,"end":604.315,"text":"勞工部在網站上並沒有一站式資訊也沒有多語的這個部分那我今天不再佔用時間但是謝謝主席給我時間那我也請勞動部這邊可以對我這邊辦公室提出一個資料的說明那我要求改進在橋外山留用以及創業的這個部分我希望有一站式的資訊管道以及多語言謝謝"}]}},{"id":"149006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcca7cb692a387d6e275f41952e69f93ab799385851b1dc2c986728e607a03227c45cb4d80bcee6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳玉琴","委員發言時間":"09:09:26 - 09:20:33","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"date":"2023-12-13","duration":667,"end_time":"2023-12-13T09:20:33+08:00","start_time":"2023-12-13T09:09:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":129,"blocks":[["吳委員玉琴：（9時9分）謝謝主席，我請我們許部長。"],["主席：有請許部長。"],["吳委員玉琴：部長早。今天是在討論勞工退休金條例，總共有15個提案，在這些提案裡面有一個很大的重點，就是勞工自提自選的部分，那我就這個部分來跟你討論。上一次10月25號我在質詢的時候，其實也針對自提自選的部分有跟部長做了一些討論，今天要跟部長討論的是勞退新制裡面相關的一個概念，到底是不是適合？因為你在報告裡面也特別提到對於自提自選的部分抱持開放的態度……"],["許部長銘春：對、對。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們就一起來討論。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：我自己在整理這樣的概念，像社會保險跟商業保險到底有哪些不同，部長是法律專家，像這樣的一個所謂的社會保險，最重要是增進我們的社會安全，由政府擔任保險人或委託民間來辦理，而且這個保費也是量能付費，社會保險一定要有強制性，符合資格就要納保，不得拒保；商業保險當然不一樣，商業保險比較沒有強制性，可以在評估風險之後拒保。最終還有一個差異，就是我們政府負最終的責任，所以有政府的角色在裡頭，商業保險大概沒有人敢做這種最終的保證。您自己認為勞退新制看起來有沒有像是保險公司創設年金保險的商品？像嗎？你覺得……"],["許部長銘春：當然不像。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們推動的社會保險應該不是商業保險。"],["許部長銘春：絕對不是。"],["吳委員玉琴：性質還是有一點不同。"],["許部長銘春：不同。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們特別想跟您談自提、自選這個議題，您剛剛也在報告說這是可以討論的。我發現有好幾個委員的版本也都有提到，因為6%是雇主提撥的，目前沒有人討論要交給代操業者來做，沒有人這樣提，大概都針對自提，希望未來有自選的部分。在勞退新制裡面自提、自選的概念架構下，跟儲蓄險、基金的投資比較，會有幾個問題跟幾個不同的狀態。勞退新制還是比較屬於強制性的，雇主提撥6%，它是不可以任意調動的，但是勞工自提的部分是可以調整的，我可以自提2%、3%、4%到6%，這個部分也有保本，有強迫儲蓄的概念，只是現在沒有開放自選。在儲蓄險或是基金投資上就比較開放，可以自由解約，不能強迫你購買，保費也是由他們自訂，如果要調整可能要另外再購買新的保約。這個部分看起來跟勞退新制裡面的基金是不一樣的概念。"],["許部長銘春：不同。"],["吳委員玉琴：三個性質還是有差異性。如果把勞退新制自提的部分當作基金投資操作，這樣OK嗎？你的看法呢？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們說抱持開放的態度是願意多聽大家的意見，其實這個議題一直以來……"],["吳委員玉琴：討論很久，你聽到什麼樣的聲音？"],["許部長銘春：對，我聽到的當然勞團是抱持比較保守的意見。"],["吳委員玉琴：是有疑慮的。"],["許部長銘春：他們是有疑慮的。他們大概有幾個重點，第一個是認為整個勞退基金目前的投資績效……"],["吳委員玉琴：好像還不錯。"],["許部長銘春：還不錯，沒有比民間差。就像委員剛剛講的，它是社會保險，所以必須維持一定的……"],["吳委員玉琴：而且政府負最終的責任。"],["許部長銘春：扮演社會的角色，所以應該以長期穩定投資來保障，就是我們剛剛講的保本，它其實是保本，在保本的情況下才能保障勞工退休之後的經濟安全。第二個，他們認為如果要自選的話就回歸市場機制，它其實會像委員剛剛提到商品的部分，如果要自選的話，可以自己藉由這個回歸市場，由業者推出好的商品……"],["吳委員玉琴：我們就可以自選。"],["許部長銘春：勞工可以自己……"],["吳委員玉琴：這個商品的部分……"],["許部長銘春：他可以運用自己的積蓄、金錢投資。再來還有一個他比較擔心的是，自選的投資基金將來會不會淪為民間業者調節資金的工具？"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["許部長銘春：他們比較保守。"],["吳委員玉琴：這是勞團的擔心啦。"],["許部長銘春：當然支持的會認為自選就是我自己負擔風險嘛，我自己拿錢，自選是我自己願意提撥的，不是強制，我也願意自擔風險。"],["吳委員玉琴：我就是要問部長這件事，通常投資基金的時候，基金公司都一直提醒有賺有賠，賺錢、賠錢都算自己的，勞退新制的自提自選如果類似投資基金，我自選去投資了，那賠錢算誰的？賺當然是自己的，賠錢算政府的嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，這要算自選勞工的。"],["吳委員玉琴：自選的話就是個人要負擔啊，所以勞工也要負擔這樣的風險，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，他跟我們現在的……"],["吳委員玉琴：目前的勞退新制是……"],["許部長銘春：不一樣，我們這是保證收益，一定是保本。"],["吳委員玉琴：是。"],["許部長銘春：但如果開放自提自選的話，就自選這部分就是自己負擔風險。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以未來的設計可能要更複雜了，如果要做這樣的設計的時候。"],["許部長銘春：會比較複雜。不過其實我們做過調查，就是去年做的，雖然有四成三的勞工贊成自提自選，但當你進一步問他說你會不會選擇自選，他就會說那他還要看商品。"],["吳委員玉琴：因為商品的複雜度也是……"],["許部長銘春：只有大概9%勞工說他一定會自選，但是73%還是保留，他說到時候是不是自提之後會自選，還要看投資的商品，標的是如何。"],["吳委員玉琴：我們熟悉或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎？這都是下一個問題。但是我在10月25號也跟部長討論過目前自提的狀況，自提的數量大概是11.52%，大概有83萬人。"],["許部長銘春：已經14%了，到今年有105萬人。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，所以有提升了。但是當時2022年的勞退新制自提勞工月平均工資是6萬3,000元左右，一般的提繳工資大概是4萬元，所以是比較高所得的勞工，大概高1.5倍左右啦；另外問勞工未提繳退休金的理由是什麼？答案是薪水不夠，占了1/4左右，所以這也看得出來，可能薪水低或低於4萬以下的勞工，要教他提撥再自提，這部分的勞工可能會有生吃都不夠了還要曬乾這種心態。如果我們針對自提自選的再給予相關的這個，會不會造成我們是在鼓勵富者越富，或是逆所得、所得逆分配的一個概念？可能這裡要特別注意。部長，你的想法如何？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為自提的退休金是屬於個人專戶，就是提到個人專戶，其實它就是一個累積儲蓄的性質。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以不會影響到別人？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得是不會影響到別人，是個人自己的儲蓄，他透過這樣來累積儲蓄，然後提升個人退休所得，我覺得這個應該是沒有所謂逆所得或分配不均的問題。"],["吳委員玉琴：好，下一個就是最後一張，剛剛部長也提到社會保險是增進社會安全，整個是希望穩定，我看到新制勞退基金的規模大概3兆，私校的退撫金是741億，比起來規模實在是差異太大，一個是大戶，一個是散戶，而且新制的投資效益，2021年的數字是9.66，私校退撫基金的投資，大概穩健型的有到8.52，我們沒有比較差。"],["許部長銘春：絕對沒有。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以也呼應部長剛剛講的，因為社會保險是社會安全的延續……"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：也希望退休後能夠有好的經濟安全。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["吳委員玉琴：如果真的要做投資，那可能就去洽商業保險的部分。我想這個部分，如果有能力來處理就是回到商業性的，而這邊就是讓我們確保每個勞工退休的時候他有一筆基金，可以讓他有經濟安全的一個保障。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員玉琴：所以我想這個概念也是跟您做討論，我相信就開放的討論，我們就一起針對自提自選的部分來做這樣的討論，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["吳委員玉琴：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝吳委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-26-14","speakers":["吳欣盈","吳玉琴","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","張育美","陳瑩","徐志榮","陳椒華","黃秀芳","王婉諭","林為洲","邱泰源","洪申翰","陳培瑜","楊曜","莊競程"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2023-12-13"],"gazette_id":"1130201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」\n案；二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員溫玉\n霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案；四、委員陳明文\n等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案；五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工\n退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案；六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、\n第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案；七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第\n十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案；八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金\n條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案；九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第\n十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案；十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正\n草案」案；十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條\n文修正草案」案；十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案；十\n五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1130201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.982218750000001,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.05659375,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.85346875,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.67596875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.38096875000001,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.88846875,"end":102.14159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.31659375000001,"end":119.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.67034375,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.63221875,"end":130.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.10846875000001,"end":127.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.85471875000002,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.23409375,"end":178.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.77534375000002,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.03971875000002,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.05784375000002,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.88034375,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.84096875,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.77346875,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.17409375000003,"end":245.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.19096875000002,"end":245.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.25846875000002,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.51159375,"end":277.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.17721875,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.92346875,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.07409375000003,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.84596875,"end":266.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.77659375,"end":282.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.41721875,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.59846875,"end":285.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.81346875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.87221875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.31471875,"end":294.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.83721875000003,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.16159375,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.53659375,"end":304.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":305.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.61596875000004,"end":347.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.60909375,"end":326.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.45659375,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.89909375,"end":331.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.30159375,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.35221875,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.83284375,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.36409375,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.08096875,"end":356.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.75159375000004,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.05034375,"end":362.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.84346875,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.52659375,"end":392.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.67846875000004,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.55221875,"end":390.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.49284375,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.76284375,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.90596875,"end":400.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.17159375,"end":398.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.27659375,"end":400.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.42409375000005,"end":400.45784375000005},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自選回歸市場機制 自選回歸市場機制"},{"start":334.551,"end":336.353,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":352.466,"end":355.428,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":376.98,"end":384.029,"text":"二、委員勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":395.043,"end":395.603,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":411.514,"end":424.039,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":441.696,"end":444.821,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":457.859,"end":468.063,"text":"投資的商品是那個標的是如何我們熟悉嗎或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎這個是下一個都是下一個問題但是我在上次10月25號也跟部長討論過有關這個所謂目前的自體的狀況當然自體的數量大概是11.5"},{"start":476.667,"end":487.209,"text":"第五十二條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條及第五十五條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":505.433,"end":509.295,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":521.242,"end":523.244,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":542.185,"end":543.626,"text":"議員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":563.839,"end":567.141,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":590.616,"end":610.073,"text":"我看到新智勞退基金的規模大概三兆那失效的一個退補金是741億這比起來其實是規模差異太大一個是大戶一個是散戶那所以基本上這個投資而且我們的新智的投資的基金效益"},{"start":610.653,"end":634.798,"text":"收益也2021年的數字是9.66那私下退撫基金的一個投資大概穩健型的大概也有到8.52我們沒有比較差所以剛剛也會呼應部長剛剛講的因為這社會保險是一個社會安全的延續也是希望退休後能夠有好的這個經濟安全"},{"start":636.098,"end":636.758,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具"}]}},{"id":"15352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15352","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855f8a018c8dfe1c04445fc32f41448fc046d53a332764a5355a570682bb80c3515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一及第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員陳明文等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員高嘉瑜等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員張廖萬堅等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員郭國文等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第二十三條及第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員廖國棟等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十三條條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員賴士葆等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第三十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員楊瓊瓔等22人擬具「勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員李貴敏等17人擬具「勞工退休金條例第二十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員邱泰源等18人擬具「勞工退休金條例第五十六條之四及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條、第三十九條及第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員陳明文等21人擬具「勞工退休金條例第十四條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-13","start_time":"2023-12-13T08:30:16+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":10,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":8,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-10-8-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-13T11:45:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":11684,"委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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«勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":2744.361,"end":2746.543,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":2760.817,"end":2773.341,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":2790.953,"end":2793.156,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":2807.177,"end":2817.361,"text":"投資的商品是那個標的是如何我們熟悉嗎或是我們能理解這些商品的優劣嗎這個是下一個都是下一個問題但是我在上次10月25號也跟部長討論過有關這個所謂目前的自體的狀況當然自體的數量大概是11.5"},{"start":2825.964,"end":2836.647,"text":"第五十二條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十三條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條條條條文修正草案：立"},{"start":2854.733,"end":2858.239,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第二十五條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2870.137,"end":2872.118,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":2891.802,"end":2921.065,"text":"議員,您的想法?委員,因為這個自選的部分,自體的部分,自體的退休金,它是屬於個人的專戶,就提到個人專戶,其實它就是一個累積儲蓄的性質,所以不會影響到別人,我覺得是不會影響到別人,它是各自的一個儲蓄,所以我覺得它當然透過這樣來累積它的儲蓄,然後提升個人退休所得,"},{"start":2921.525,"end":2946.332,"text":"我覺得這個應該是沒有沒有太沒有影響到其他比較低所得人的問題好來那下一個就是最後一張我想剛剛部長也提到社會保險是增進社會安全那整個是希望穩定那所以像我們我看到新治勞退基金的規模大概三兆那失效的一個退補金是741億"},{"start":2949.453,"end":2972.171,"text":"這比起來其實是規模差一太大,一個是大戶一個是散戶,那所以基本上這個投資,而且我們的新制的投資的基金效益,收益也2021年的數字是9.66那私校退輔基金的一個投資大概穩健型的大概也有到8.52,那我們沒有比較差"},{"start":2972.731,"end":2978.394,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條及第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":3000.359,"end":3005.601,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一 其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3031.062,"end":3053.291,"text":"處委員好部長好部長我們今天要討論這個勞工退休金條例的這個部分那其實大家確實坊間現在有非常多的聲音嘛就是到底怎麼樣可以對個人的退休生活保障最多所以剛剛吳育琴委員也在在的提到了自提自選這是一個很大的題目就覺得我有能力而且我有意願那我能不能夠有更多更好更多元的選擇這是一種嘛"},{"start":3054.992,"end":3067.719,"text":"第二十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。netesa,您的聲音是一種之後那其實在立法院當中民眾黨的黨團那今年九月也提案他就說要提高直接要提高勞退的雇主強制提撥率從6%現行的6%直接到9%"},{"start":3072.001,"end":3077.807,"text":"民眾黨主席柯文哲卻在政見發表會是說他不會強迫提高而是要提供企業的租稅優惠"},{"start":3095.604,"end":3121.206,"text":"企業租稅優惠。」對,那在這樣的狀況下我是想請教部長啦雖然我有看過你們用新聞稿的方式對這個提議做了一些看法但你會不會在備詢台上你再告訴我們你針對現在有立法院有不同的黨團提出了不同的聲音在這樣的狀況第一個是提高強制提撥率那第二個是"},{"start":3121.866,"end":3149.822,"text":"不見得要用強迫的方式而是用企業稅率優惠的方式。那你怎麼看?其實包委我想每一個黨頭每個委員所提案都是站在希望大家都是討論嘛對但是勞動部總是有看法我們是認為目前的階段可能還是比較適宜說我們用鼓勵鼓勵勞僱雙方其實那是最低吧"},{"start":3150.282,"end":3160.205,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條"},{"start":3179.79,"end":3183.454,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3203.593,"end":3216.479,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":3232.087,"end":3239.856,"text":"認為不能就是說一下子就講一個數字啦,這個必須大家去做一些討論之後才能夠...這個我想對我們的"},{"start":3255.643,"end":3270.637,"text":"提一趴增加的那個僱主的負擔是31.7億一年一個月一個月吧應該是一個月吧你只要提高一趴對僱主的那個"},{"start":3271.698,"end":3296.161,"text":"我看到你們的回應嘛勞動部是表示說以今年六月底勞退薪至平均提繳工資四萬三千九百二十二元僱主是七百四十點四萬的這個勞工提繳勞退金計算的話如果提高了一個百分點僱主一年薪增加是三百九十億元的法定負擔一個月三十一啦三十一點七一年是三百九十億"},{"start":3296.761,"end":3297.902,"text":"三、委員劉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3317.944,"end":3321.065,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":3346.974,"end":3359.223,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第十九條條條文修正草案�"},{"start":3371.792,"end":3374.133,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．勞工退休金條例第三十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3387.561,"end":3401.006,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第"},{"start":3409.449,"end":3425.956,"text":"既然我們鼓勵這些橋外生尤其是新南向政策當中的學生來到了臺灣就學而且看起來是有成效的現在人數都是達到數千人現在的話我看馬來西亞今年的話有5253人那印尼的話有2675人越南也有到2331人其實是非常非常的高額"},{"start":3433.899,"end":3436.28,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3459.705,"end":3486.15,"text":"你這邊有一個工作評點許可名額啊不是嗎大家現在就是在討論這個因為我們現在這個工作評點許可名額的話是從一百零九年的兩千五百名一百一十年四千五百名再到一一一一二年現在是六千名啊那我現在跟你討論的就是這個部分因為我沒有關係我們可以再討論啦也許我的資料齁跟您調的不夠精確那我就希望你給我更好的資料"},{"start":3486.65,"end":3493.527,"text":"我這邊收到的資料是這樣子就是我們也是問了很多橋外生等一下布朗你可以回答沒有關係就是"},{"start":3494.91,"end":3518.153,"text":"喬外森其實是來臺就學越來越多越來越多的喬外森也覺得臺灣很好他甚至想留下來工作但在申請工作的過程當中有一個名額的限制那現在的名額現在開放到六千了好可是如果你既然是歡迎他們來的話你何必要有這個限制呢這個名額我先跟你討論就這一點這個謝謝委員齁我先說明一下那個六千的名額齁"},{"start":3519.394,"end":3520.174,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3542.248,"end":3543.85,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3559.528,"end":3562.009,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":3586.638,"end":3589.101,"text":"最後因為佔人家的時間我只要講一個就好了我們喬外森在鼓勵喬外森來的這個網站是有一站式的網站然後是多語式的可是我們這個當喬外森要留下來能夠找工作創業這就屬於勞動部了啦"},{"start":3602.819,"end":3603.319,"text":"二、委員勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3630.894,"end":3631.754,"text":"謝衣鳯等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3656.397,"end":3683.031,"text":"今天我們在審查勞工退休金的條例這個議題之前想就移工的一個政策的部分等一下等一下等一下我的時間暫停好謝謝要針對的就是移工的一個政策如何更友善來跟部長做一個那個討論因為我們知道缺工時代的一個"},{"start":3685.228,"end":3709.995,"text":"來臨不只臺灣缺工其實在我們鄰近的國家全世界都面臨到相同的一個問題那我們相信就是勞動部對缺工的議題我們已經檢討了很多次了包括開放農業的那個移工還是那個理數業的一個移工甚至就是在上個月就是我們印度的NOU的一個簽署的一個狀況那我們知道那個是一個假信息"},{"start":3710.655,"end":3724.705,"text":"但是友善的這個移工的一個聘僱流程怎麼樣才可以讓就是勞僱主都達到雙贏的一個狀態這個是我們非常關心的那在這個不久的一個那個遊行裡頭"},{"start":3726.006,"end":3728.349,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":3750.083,"end":3778.088,"text":"全臺灣的就業輔導中心裡頭唯一的服務就是每一週固定的通知你要去簽名不然你就沒有辦法繼續再那個拿到這個聘僱函那所以這個移工團體他走上街了他就是有一個五大的一個訴求他就講說是不是政府跟政府直接的一個聘僱然後就福站的一個酸乙仁眼的一個增加還是職聘中心整合各機關文件"},{"start":3779.828,"end":3782.631,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3802.788,"end":3805.974,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3813.939,"end":3839.027,"text":"瓜委員其實有些比如說流程簡化或是他們希望提供更多的多元的協助這個其實我們都會來精進但是我也必須說你說其實我們現在的職聘中心其實他是也提供很多多元服務還有這個便捷的申辦程序給使用我們職聘中心的那當然不是每個"},{"start":3840.233,"end":3842.293,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3868.523,"end":3882.342,"text":"全國目前就是一個因為他就是一個行政協助啦因為基本上現在我們的僱主他聘僱移工他本來就是多元他可以委託仲介他也可以來執聘是多元化的嘛那是不是就是針對他們講的"},{"start":3883.624,"end":3883.944,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":3900.917,"end":3904.318,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3918.304,"end":3941.366,"text":"但是有不足的部分我們都會盡量來把它做好。那我在針對的製造業的一個僱主的一個聘僱的制度的一個檢查我特別就是說把這個制度的一個討論拉出來那現在全台的移工有大概接近75萬了甚至還是更超過了到目前是有多少人?"},{"start":3943.777,"end":3947.438,"text":"三、委員吳美芬等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3973.225,"end":3975.866,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":3994.315,"end":4016.051,"text":"你們從六個月把它縮短成三個月移工名額你們要增加這個移工的名額來做一個就是等於是鼓勵那有沒有機會這個三個月其實還是太長了你要知道就是說很多製造業他們甚至他們的工廠其實他們的生產線一刻都不能停有沒有機會就是這三個月變為一個月呢"},{"start":4017.712,"end":4031.128,"text":"跟委員報告齁,因為當初這個因為涉及救危服務法的修法齁,那原來是六個月,那後來就是因為基於這個缺口下我們縮短了三個月。這個會持續檢討啦齁,但是就是說這個三個月的空中期其實我們還是在協助。還是在協助。"},{"start":4033.05,"end":4034.811,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":4057.222,"end":4066.87,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":4082.543,"end":4109.552,"text":"就像剛才部長你特別提到了就是說其實我們每個月就是已經雇主自己提撥6%了然後我們自己本身勞工也提撥了6%那我們其實政府的美意非常好我們希望就是說勞工在他的一個老年的一個退休裡頭是得到了一個很好的一個保障可是相對的就是說我們看到了很多很多的一個資料裡頭"},{"start":4110.572,"end":4134.726,"text":"其實我不得不佩服我們勞動部我們這個基金我們應該請我們的局長上來報告一下你對你自己這樣的一個投資那你滿不滿意你還可以保障我們的勞工有四點幾趴的一個收益你算很厲害謝謝委員我們持續努力我們也會持續精進這樣"},{"start":4136.195,"end":4158.326,"text":"那你手上有多少的這樣子的一個就是在這個市場的一個分析分析人員啊這樣的一個配置我們人員相當有限啊那我們國內外都有配置相關的研究人員同時因為我們人員有限我們也希望藉助國內還有國外的很好的資產管理公司來提供協助"},{"start":4159.301,"end":4181.233,"text":"所以你們還是有這個是在後端喔我現在是講說前端前端就是說你們怎麼樣去慎選就是說那個委託我們的這個投資公司來幫我們就是操盤我想知道這個怎樣的一個程序你怎麼有辦法這樣省準的就是說可以給勞工4%以上的一個收益呢"},{"start":4184.98,"end":4209.553,"text":"有關國內外的受託機構的評選我們有一定的程序然後我們也會借重國內的專家學者來參加我們的評選那投資的政策部分我們一直秉持就是穩健的原則來進行那我們希望可以讓勞工有比較中長期的穩健收益所以我們也不會說只看短我們會看整個趨勢這樣"},{"start":4210.674,"end":4225.848,"text":"好,看整個趨勢,部長在這裡我再請教就是說當然你一定有信心就是幫勞工爭取到超過4%的一個獲利啦那有沒有更好的誘因可以讓更多的勞工願意自體呢?有機會嗎?其實這個自體風險是很高的"},{"start":4229.827,"end":4230.907,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4253.916,"end":4255.436,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4277.543,"end":4278.323,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4303.45,"end":4305.853,"text":"自體由勞動部來投資。謝謝主席,謝謝。謝謝主席,請勞動部許部長。有請部長。"},{"start":4333.069,"end":4357.117,"text":"三、委員好。好,部長早。今日有媒體對那個退休率當作議題撰寫系列的報導。由於現在醫療進步、科技發達,人人都是可以成為百歲人的候選人。為預備將來的長壽生活、健康財務、社會連結這些都缺一不可。根據遠見雜誌的調查,國人退休之後的養老資金"},{"start":4361.258,"end":4381.952,"text":"主要來自於退休年金制度有63.3% 其次為儲蓄或定存56.3%基金股票等投資是50.7%逐漸國人的退休準備高度仰賴政府退休年金的制度"},{"start":4382.893,"end":4395.685,"text":"然而我們根據勞動部的統計勞退新制實施了18年全台740萬的勞工預計今年勞退自體率只有14.69%只有"},{"start":4399.167,"end":4413.672,"text":"十四點六九不到15%表示仍然有多達六百萬的勞工85%的勞工不願意自提請問部長那勞動部是否有進一步了解勞工自提意願低落的原因是什麼原因"},{"start":4414.752,"end":4437.748,"text":"報告人其實因為既然這個叫自提啦就是說他自願提交就是說要尊重他的意願啦那每個人他為什麼沒有來自提可能第一個他是不是經濟的負擔比較低薪那薪水拿出來通朋友有些人是他可能是自己就去找商業保險或者到市場上去做"},{"start":4438.589,"end":4439.23,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":4448.43,"end":4451.131,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4475.936,"end":4480.897,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十三條之一"},{"start":4498.423,"end":4502.007,"text":"勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4516.34,"end":4519.283,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4539.56,"end":4554.736,"text":"這遠低於國人平均總薪資五萬七嘛我們不是說六成嗎六成就要三萬四那我們只有兩萬五所以少了一萬塊那通過膨脹投資市場波動這個影響納入呢增加國人退休後的財務風險"},{"start":4556.918,"end":4582.892,"text":"對此,勞動部近來就有表示啊,正在收集各方的意見,兼顧企業經營之下,企業經營就是這個我們怎樣的去一些的撥補。朝向勞工退休保障有更好的研議制度,那再問部長,那目前有哪些調整方向呢?兩萬五嘛,現在收入都不到兩萬五,就退休後,可是我們大概需要是三萬四,差了差不多一萬塊。"},{"start":4585.95,"end":4600.677,"text":"對,二、委員我們現在其實算一算有啊,對啊,我們現在平均二、二、二年的平均我們其實勞保還要再加勞退喔對啊,我們算一算,對,報告委員我跟你說我們的所得替代勞退六千五嘛"},{"start":4602.065,"end":4624.157,"text":"因為很多人不提撥,剛剛講85人不提撥,所以他以提撥零來算啦85%不提撥,當然有提撥是不止啦自體是另外一回事,我們有固體固體6%是一定要提的喔所以我們的退休基本上是勞保加勞退自體可以零啊,可以6加6但是員工可以零啊,85%是零欸"},{"start":4631.209,"end":4654.316,"text":"自己提啊!勞工顧主六趴啦我知道我跟你說我們的所得替代率喔如果以平均月頭保薪資目前來講大概三萬七我們所得替代率有百分之六十八我們的退休齁可以領的是三萬四千三百八十六哪裡退休2022年是一萬八加六千五啊一二零二年這個啊加起來勒"},{"start":4660.643,"end":4664.126,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":4688.667,"end":4689.668,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4706.189,"end":4729.746,"text":"報告委我們的重點在這裡啦我們是103才施行勞退啦所以我們到現在還不到十年啦所以勞退的平均月領六千五啦可是你有算三十年不止啦你把三十年再加二十年進去不止你平均月領不止這樣啦那我們現在就有人退休啦那兩萬五還是不夠所以我說比較基礎不能就要看啦"},{"start":4731.347,"end":4742.652,"text":"國外他可能是比較久了但是我們勞退薪資是103才開始所以我們今天會得出一個勞退平均月領6000勞退薪資18年了沒有啦"},{"start":4747.35,"end":4751.973,"text":"勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文"},{"start":4776.499,"end":4778.04,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":4796.949,"end":4801.431,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":4815.717,"end":4843.839,"text":"女性治理白皮書的上司公司中28個產業只有三個產業沒有女性領導人在疫情期間穩健成長女性領導人企業整個產業比是毫不遜色可見女力對於經濟影響已經全面擴散我們知道哈佛大學有個教授叫戈丁他認為來了解女性勞動市場是非常charming的是非常重要而且迷人的"},{"start":4845.24,"end":4848.841,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條"},{"start":4866.145,"end":4892.182,"text":"一路成長到這個五成2013年的五成目前是51.5日本韓國是53.5和53.3比我們高差不多2%那新加坡六成四那北歐國家是七成一所以數據上來看我們在30歲以後近一半的女性沒有投入勞動職場請問部長有沒有了解原因啊"},{"start":4893.183,"end":4894.245,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":4905.643,"end":4908.424,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":4931.894,"end":4949.339,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利及衛"},{"start":4954.48,"end":4957.203,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4974.161,"end":4975.522,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":4989.921,"end":4997.27,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文"},{"start":5010.965,"end":5027.61,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案："},{"start":5030.211,"end":5032.713,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":5057.133,"end":5058.174,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5076.222,"end":5100.295,"text":"兩種國家我們不是一樣都一樣的這種東方文化都很像嗎以教育孩子為主所以我覺得我應該要建議勞動部要關心這個托育資源的部件以及協助企業鏈結長照資源來讓我們婦女可以安心去就業你說對嗎所以不是只有你的問題而已不是勞動部還要結合其他部分對好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":5112.754,"end":5126.11,"text":"下一位吳欣英委員謝主席有請勞動部長許部長"},{"start":5132.376,"end":5152.919,"text":"議員好,已經快過一年了,然後也可能是我最後一次跟部長質詢了。那我想請問一下部長,覺得說大家今年討論的年度關鍵字,你有沒有知道這個年度關鍵字是什麼?什麼年度關鍵字?缺了。是的,是。今年的關鍵字是缺。"},{"start":5154.093,"end":5176.465,"text":"不只是五缺加上缺氮缺藥對年輕人來說因為通膨物價成長大家也感覺到缺錢那當然貨物的這個負擔率房屋率的這個比例也創下歷史新高也讓年輕人感覺到缺房那勞保也即將破產那年輕人會更覺得說缺退休金"},{"start":5177.745,"end":5183.713,"text":"那依據調查呢,國人退休率連續三年不及格,其中是未滿30到39歲的右偏低,只有52分。"},{"start":5189.966,"end":5211.452,"text":"那國人雖然年紀增大,越來越接近退休的年齡,才剛開始準備退休金,這時候已經晚了十到二十年了。所以呢,我本席認為說政府應該鼓勵國人立即更早的準備退休金,透過時間以及複利的效果,退休金不是一比一的增加,而是倍數的增加。"},{"start":5212.552,"end":5233.838,"text":"今天想跟部長分享本席辦公室的視算,這個福利的威力。比如說,如果勞工25歲的時候開始提6%,每年只有3萬塊的薪水,而且假設是說他到60歲的時候,他的薪水完全都不成長的前提之下,"},{"start":5234.878,"end":5246.287,"text":"此等於說勞工每個月只要花一千八百元退休之後每個月就可以領多於這個六千五百元那一塊錢就等於變成三點六塊錢"},{"start":5249.434,"end":5275.757,"text":"可是很可惜的就是勞退薪資這18年來呢自提的比例只有14%每年成長率不到1%那勞動部的擬定未來的三年自提目標呢其實未來是每年成長大概1.5%可是實際上等於說這代表說在2025的時候呢總額才是在17.7%那本席認為其實這還是太慢了那如果每年是"},{"start":5276.357,"end":5280.14,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":5294.833,"end":5315.585,"text":"二十五年到百分之十七點七的話還是相當的慢。那因為就是說一般民眾的這個所謂的financial literacy就是財經的一些理財的知識是不足的。所以我也需要說部長從政策這個部分能多於關心。那我是覺得說要提高字體比率呢必須要對症下藥。"},{"start":5316.946,"end":5338.675,"text":"而本席的辦公室也整理了勞動部的資料做出以下的這個圖表那觀察到兩個事件就是首先像剛所提到的自體比率目前為止達高六百萬的勞工沒有自體那第二就是說這個低薪的困境薪資越高自體反而越多"},{"start":5340.836,"end":5360.544,"text":"所以如果以低薪的問題來思考的話沒有辦法短期解決可是就要給勞工更大的誘因才能提升自體比率那本期建議勞動部可以參考這個農退條例勞工為自體退休金政府應該給予更多的獎勵"},{"start":5362.948,"end":5382.961,"text":"農退儲蓄金2021年開辦農民自體搭配政府相對的Matching提撥的獎勵這已經實施了兩年了自體比率就快速提升到了27%接下來想有請主計處上台然後請許部長留步好嗎主計處"},{"start":5395.704,"end":5396.825,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5420.265,"end":5425.189,"text":"立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":5449.256,"end":5462.969,"text":"相對勞保撥補的高達2570億元的話政府應該可以負擔的而且就是勞退補助直接進入勞工的戶頭這跟勞保的撥補大水庫是不一樣的我想請問說主計處對這個態度如何?"},{"start":5472,"end":5497.819,"text":"基本上因為這個會增加我們國家整體的財政負擔所以應該還是要就整個政府的整體的財政來一起一併做考量可能是沒有辦法就勞工這部分單獨這樣去處理以上就可能沒有辦法單就這個部分去處理因為還是要就我們整個政府的財政來做考量而且這可能會有財政紀律法的問題所以還在考慮當中就是了"},{"start":5498.592,"end":5513.517,"text":"立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第24會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":5516.458,"end":5535.306,"text":"補助五千元等於二點五倍獎金。本席相信如果勞動部願意把這些數字呈現出來對年輕人來說是一定很有感的。另外勞動部也可以思考僱主提撥超過6%給予企業的稅優。我今天只是希望能拋磚引玉"},{"start":5536.426,"end":5558.755,"text":"然後以整體的政策的配套希望勞動部也可以全盤考量那能提出民眾真正有感的政策那我們全民的這個退休金能提升謝謝您好謝謝委員的提議這個就是要增加自體那個具體的方法那我們未來跟相關部會因為這牽涉到財政相關部會一起來討論謝謝您謝謝吳委員下一位"},{"start":5566.43,"end":5590.237,"text":"陳寅,委員。謝謝主席,麻煩請這個發展署蔡署長。"},{"start":5595.168,"end":5616.302,"text":"有請署長。委員好。署長好。據悉我國即將與印度簽署MOU引進的印度籍勞工。本席並不反對這樣的政策,不過要透過今天的質詢跟勞動部做一些提醒。"},{"start":5618.19,"end":5629.418,"text":"首先我想請教一下印度籍勞工跟目前已經引進的東南亞國家的勞工在生活的習慣上還有管理上會不會有很大的差異?"},{"start":5631.209,"end":5659.024,"text":"跟委員報告因為印度其實在目前很多國家都有引進那東南亞大概目前據我們所知像新加坡他就有很多那其實印度大概基本上大部分跟一般的其他國家移工當然會有一些語言的問題跟這個宗教習慣的問題那各個國家其實對於這個移工他在本身的一些生活適應的條例都必須要做好一些準備那這基本上在我們在整個評估的過程當中都會去想加注意"},{"start":5659.482,"end":5685.553,"text":"好,因為剛剛你提到語言齁畢竟他們光是這個方言就447種嘛那這個官方承認就22種所以是相當這個在這個語言上是非常的多元化齁那將來這些這個印度籍的勞工主要我另外再請教就是說那他們未來主要是補充什麼樣的這個產業缺工的問題好,謝謝委員你可能要講大聲一點對準麥克風"},{"start":5688.755,"end":5703.132,"text":"跟委員報告齁那個在目前印度未來在哪些產業有這些需求其實目前我們在後續在工作小組會議當中跟各部會其實會做一些討論齁在缺口在哪裡所以你們現在是還不知道"},{"start":5704.433,"end":5725.173,"text":"現在基本上到底未來在哪些開放行業需要由印度的移工來補充這個還要做一些討論那基本上我們在目前第一階段只是就來原國的這個部分做一個評估所以就還沒有還不知道哪些產業缺工要補充哪些產業就先先直接先就是"},{"start":5726.88,"end":5754.999,"text":"對,所以公文報告因為目前我們在整個的過去以往我們在開放的過程當中第一個就是說跟南韓國之間要先有一個合作的意向這個是第一步因為根據媒體的報導可能開放的這個行業啦其實也就是我們常見缺工的行業就是像農業啦製造業還有營造業那由於說這些行業的這些外籍的勞工呢大部分都是居住在"},{"start":5756.08,"end":5763.725,"text":"場區以外的社區。」那針對這個印度籍勞工的生活管理我想了解一下發展署有什麼樣的規劃跟準備"},{"start":5765.273,"end":5785.16,"text":"我們目前在整個印度的移工開放第一個就是說從他的來源跟他勞工素質尤其就是說一些不能影響我們治安這個部分我們會特別注意那在國內目前在整個移工管理上其實都會有一些相關的規範這個目前我們大概都會在後續的一個工作會議當中都會做一些相關的規劃"},{"start":5786.898,"end":5814.252,"text":"所以聽起來好像就是對於他們大部分要居住在場區以外的這些社區在住的方面你們還沒有很具體的一個規劃跟準備?其實大部分就我們的了解以目前國內的運用其實大部分其實雇主都會做一些妥善的安排所以這個部分就是交給雇主去處理目前他會做一些規劃那要依照我們的規定來辦理"},{"start":5815.23,"end":5829.764,"text":"所以你們只是規定,然後規劃留給這個僱主他們自己去處理?我們後續其實也會協助。因為我今天其實你不用緊張,我只是提出一些提醒。"},{"start":5831.045,"end":5854.518,"text":"如果只是規定,然後你們沒有及早做一些規劃準備,我是良心的建議你們還是多思考一些,也幫雇主多思考一些,會減少到時候可能會面對的問題。好不好?那再來就是說印度它是一個非常多元文化,然後在這個種族還有甚至在階級嚴格的,就是說甚至階級都嚴格差異的一個國家。"},{"start":5857.981,"end":5860.704,"text":"文字與語言對國內而言是比較陌生的國度。在發展署你們有沒有儲備這方面的人才?"},{"start":5870.682,"end":5898.761,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前因為印度確實非常大他的語言真的非常那英文只是其中之一啦齁那目前如果以目前外交部給我們的建議其實後續大概會有一些來源地區會有一些選擇齁那尤其語言這個部分你會優先考量那至於說如果其他語言像印度語這部分也跟委員報告這個我們現在也後續必須要做一些相關的跟學校跟一些相關的一些翻譯的一個資源來做一些合作"},{"start":5900.486,"end":5924.303,"text":"當然每個人第一個想到的會是語言那可能就是翻譯的部分那我想再提醒就是說因為可能在宗教還有生活語言習慣上的這個不同那也不是我們非常熟悉或者其他這個來源國很熟悉的這個地方那所以就是說有關於這個輔導心理諮商"},{"start":5926.625,"end":5927.546,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案案案"},{"start":5945.176,"end":5958.512,"text":"一旦進到台灣,那是不是也要接受一定時數的職前教育訓練?那特別是這個職業安全衛生的教育訓練。我不知道你們有沒有已經跟這個職安署協調討論相關的教育訓練課程?"},{"start":5960.915,"end":5984.758,"text":"對跟委員其實現在我們跟治安署其實在移工不管是來台前或來台後其實治安會這個部分會列入一個重點那未來印度移工也會拿入整體來做一些所以不會只是看務工需要而已都需要整理過好因為我有看到那個我們治安署署長有點頭好那再來我請那個勞保局嘿"},{"start":5989.351,"end":6008.85,"text":"我接下來想就是再提醒一下這個勞保局就是你們投保對象的這個姓名藍衛是不是有適用印度籍的這個勞工因為字源的長度會不會太短以至於說無法登錄聽說這個最長的曾經已經長到有600多字"},{"start":6009.531,"end":6028.693,"text":"所以一般而言在這個印度的這個制度下有一些人的姓名真的很長那如果我們事先就沒有做好這個準備跟因應到時候會不會造成這個電腦資料庫當機那個非常謝謝委員提醒那日後如果說相關移工的引進我們特別來留意"},{"start":6029.056,"end":6030.338,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6044.657,"end":6061.535,"text":"指示提醒勞動部還有各個所屬的機關一定要好好來規劃跟準備。既然行政院已經合訂要與印度簽署勞務合作協定的內容,預定在年底前要完成簽署,"},{"start":6062.176,"end":6074.908,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文"},{"start":6088.52,"end":6089.722,"text":"三、委員徐志榮徐樂園等16人擬具"},{"start":6119.262,"end":6141.356,"text":"謝主席,拜託許部長。有請部長。學員好。謝謝委員的支持。"},{"start":6151.735,"end":6174.27,"text":"我們今天主要講這個勞退條例我們主要是說勞工朋友他退休以後勞保跟勞退應該就是他最主要的經濟來源剛剛也聽了所有的所得替代力等等照我們現在有的制度來講"},{"start":6176.65,"end":6201.961,"text":"你就算是領最低工資的,最低工資的應該有三十幾趴吧?應該至少應該有。應該有三百多萬人嘛。就是領最低工資的當勞工當了三十年、三十五年這樣下來。領最低工資大概二十幾趴,我們現在有兩百多萬人。那也還算蠻多的啦。大概占五分之一。"},{"start":6202.762,"end":6217.742,"text":"這樣他們的守得替代率等等這樣算起來夠他們生活嗎?夠他們安心的生活嗎?就是領基本工資的人。他也有可能一直做到退休都還是在領基本工資喔。"},{"start":6219.452,"end":6222.155,"text":"兩萬七八應該還滿滿符符啦我現在的印象是兩萬五的話就有差不多"},{"start":6239.673,"end":6243.936,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6268.354,"end":6287.469,"text":"如果不撥補到這邊我不是反對不撥補到這邊譬如說明年的一千億還可以到其他各部會還有很多地方要用的嘛我的意思就是說好像一直用公務預算撥補的話好像不是真正的解決這個"},{"start":6290.174,"end":6290.875,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6316.418,"end":6317.999,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6343.496,"end":6370.472,"text":"那是不是說如果沒有這個公務預算的撥補我們假設啦沒有公務預算的撥補有沒有什麼其他的方法來可以對這個勞保年金不要這麼快的?對,跟委員報告齁其實目前啦齁大概所有不管是學者專家或各政黨或是政府所研議的齁就是說在討論當中的方案齁"},{"start":6371.707,"end":6391.256,"text":"最簡單最簡單就是撥補一定要有因為我們現在因為我們第一個我們的費率其實最高就到12%第二個我們年資給付率是1.55那這個收支逆差就從106年就開始了發生所以政府撥補這件事情是一定各個版本都一定要有"},{"start":6391.596,"end":6407.984,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生�"},{"start":6416.728,"end":6426.7,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":6432.719,"end":6435.501,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6463.962,"end":6466.124,"text":"三、委員延後退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6478.711,"end":6499.664,"text":"嚴議延長,不是兵役的役,是嚴討看能不能延長。總歸就是說,我是覺得說一直用公務預算,雖然是必須要的,但是越來越多,你看從兩百億、三百億、幾百億,好像數字越來越大了。"},{"start":6501.164,"end":6524.449,"text":"所以這個反正就是開研節流嘛節流可能就是延後退的一種節流方式開研可能就我剛剛講的這個提高勞參力提高勞參力當然比較主要的就是婦女朋友的這個變形工時大概講在這邊參考因為有一些勞工朋友跟我提過這個譬如說委託"},{"start":6527.116,"end":6541.252,"text":"我們勞保基金也是有委託代操嘛之前有一些他是想說他自提的部分可不可以他自己他自己去委託民間的一些那個"},{"start":6543.725,"end":6567.803,"text":"帶草單位甚至於政府提撥的6%跟他自己提撥的6%是不是可以一起一起去委託他他可能認為說他委託的他的獲益比較大但是我知道我們政府會擔心說把他自己退休金的老本不要委託到那個私人的那個部分去以後"},{"start":6568.824,"end":6570.605,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6590.177,"end":6606.85,"text":"所以說就算他提撥的6%跟政府的6%一起給他抄抄到沒有都算零的話他一個月他領幾十萬十幾萬薪水的人他的生活也安全無疑啦所以是不是我們也可以考慮說"},{"start":6609.542,"end":6636.516,"text":"甚至於政府提撥的六八還在勞動部這邊抄他自己提撥的六八他搞不好一個月領薪水二三十萬他提撥六八去這樣代抄的話可能也是一種相當的金額當然他認為說他自己委外的話會議比部裡面抄的多他自己盈虧他自己負責所以這方面是否也可以考慮"},{"start":6638.306,"end":6643.815,"text":"反正他自己去決定嘛。他自己決定他要的話你就自己負責嘛。"},{"start":6646.81,"end":6670.488,"text":"謝謝委員的剛剛的意見我想這個部分我們都會去多聽聽大家的看法那的確就是說如果當然在部裡面是有保障對 那就是說我們會考慮到說畢竟不是所有自選的勞工自體的勞工他可能都是那麼高薪所以有時候他的自體的部分他才是希望有保障"},{"start":6671.289,"end":6691.481,"text":"所以如果說當然你說他自選之後他自擔風險我們都會擔心說像去年那種金融整個金融市場跌了兩三成勞工都很擔心所以我們會多種考量我的意思是說會去提撥給民間操作的人他領的薪水一定是很多的萬一那邊泡湯掉他領的薪水應該都還沒問題"},{"start":6695.203,"end":6713.717,"text":"而其實像這些高薪的他其實也可以回到市場機制去選擇商品也是一個方式那也是一種自選就他其實不一定要進到這個自體裡面來他也可以把自己本來要自體的他其實就可以去購買商品就是金融市場上的商業"},{"start":6714.94,"end":6716.542,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":6743.08,"end":6744.921,"text":"陳佳華陳委員歡迎好謝謝主席請部長有請部長陳委員好部長好部長目前我們看到三位總統候選人在談論到勞退新制的問題都是僅說會鼓勵雇主和勞工提撥卻迴避強制提高雇主提撥勞退的修法"},{"start":6772.349,"end":6796.879,"text":"那這樣看起來他們一直應該是沒有想要去解決我們勞工生活而且是退休的生活尤其我們現在看到整個物價上漲的這麼多所以請問勞動部我們從舊制到新制18年過去了時空背景也不同了"},{"start":6797.718,"end":6814.108,"text":"所以針對提高僱主提撥勞退的比例是否應盡速研議提高?那我們要問目前全國勞工可期待預計提高會幾%?那預計什麼時候可以來推行修法?"},{"start":6815.542,"end":6827.938,"text":"報告委員,這個議題我們知道勞工非常關心但是因為這個部分這個強制提撥的部分就是會牽涉到僱主的負擔所以這個部分我們會參考"},{"start":6831.403,"end":6843.593,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":6856.603,"end":6877.733,"text":"會增加雇主負擔﹖我們是認為說可能要再經過討論﹖可是這個就是一直存在的問題嘛 對不對也是一直困難的問題但是18年過去了本席是認為我們勞動部有責任要來做檢討然後提出來照顧勞工的做法尤其物價上漲這麼的多 是嗎"},{"start":6880.506,"end":6888.194,"text":"報告委員因為這個是牽涉到退休的生活當然我們願意來傾聽勞工的意見也願意說"},{"start":6891.867,"end":6914.807,"text":"正對大家的期待﹖好,那要積極去研議嘛,那你認為什麼時候要來修法呢?大概我是認為這個部分還要經過討論之後,跟各界,請聽各界事情,然後跟勞工雙方大家共同討論之後。那你認為我們總統候選人都沒有具體的去提出他們要做的方法,那勞動部是不是樂得輕鬆呢?"},{"start":6916.516,"end":6918.04,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6926.043,"end":6950.763,"text":"這個也算是一個大議題我覺得大家還是必須去面對但是要去審慎的研議我們沒有說這個議題其實我們一直也了解勞工的期待也很高我們知道了解了還會繼續再了解那請問部長我們現在勞工退休金個人帳戶現在我們的政府是代委操作那請問績效現在是怎麼樣"},{"start":6952.91,"end":6954.191,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":6973.6,"end":6998.609,"text":"所以目前沒有要考慮做修改目前我們其實這個議題各界有不同的聲音而且我們也有勞團他是持反對的意見所以我們認為說這個議題我們開放的態度但是請聽各界的聲音說是可以一定比例比如說60%由政府操作其餘可以開放讓勞工自主投資"},{"start":7001.407,"end":7003.77,"text":"我想各種意見我們都會來參考,各種意見來參考。"},{"start":7006.751,"end":7007.692,"text":"李慧琼議員李慧琼議員"},{"start":7036.289,"end":7065.328,"text":"可不可以跟勞保來做診病呢?本席是希望能夠有關心私校這些退府的教職員工那這個部分我們勞動部有沒有可以去"},{"start":7066.141,"end":7068.583,"text":"等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7096.361,"end":7098.522,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":7117.253,"end":7123.914,"text":"昨天北捷的工程又發生公安事故,那這個監督方面我們現在要怎麼做?」"},{"start":7158.508,"end":7159.188,"text":"有請黃秀芳、黃委員。有請部長。"},{"start":7173.444,"end":7199.662,"text":"阿偉好部長好今天討論這個有關這個勞動退休金的問題我想請教就是說其實我們看到一份報告就是說我們這個人力資源顧問有關在那個評比台灣的這個評比當中排名第39那這個排名第39可能我們從上面看到就是說確實台灣的這個退休金制度是不是存在一些問題"},{"start":7201.063,"end":7202.284,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7227.467,"end":7236.414,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16條及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22會期社會福利及衛生環境委"},{"start":7252.051,"end":7252.411,"text":"兩條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7281.081,"end":7283.762,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7297.527,"end":7315.289,"text":"大概在百分之六十八並不會低於OECD不過我覺得當然世界各國有好的制度我們都願意來參考第二個就是說那個四萬五千八天花板是不是要打開那這件事情因為會牽涉到我們現在整個"},{"start":7316.973,"end":7322.777,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":7347.294,"end":7364.555,"text":"其實我一直想要講的就是說其實我們的這個勞保的這個投保薪資在105年提高到這個四萬五千八嘛那其實我們的基本薪資其實一直都在往上調那是不是也要相對的這個投保薪資是不是也要再往上"},{"start":7365.656,"end":7391.052,"text":"這是我認為應該是這樣子才合理啊我也認為應該是這樣你看我們的紙災保險災保我就提到七萬兩千八了這個已經cover到大概有八成的勞工九成勞工都可以適用得到但未來我是覺得這一題可能未來就是可能跟年改這件事情要一起討論啊不然我現在我只要單提高一級我就是一千五百億的負擔啊"},{"start":7394.35,"end":7397.371,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":7417,"end":7419.14,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7444.836,"end":7459.85,"text":"對這個部分我們會尊重大家的意見但是就是說現在的狀況就是說還是有些老船比較擔心的就是說這畢竟是退休老本那你要自擔風險這件事情"},{"start":7461.208,"end":7465.61,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7487.418,"end":7516.044,"text":"其中有很多高齡或中高齡的民眾其實他們也很想在二度就業找的工作可能就是一些比較簡單的工作有的他們也急需一份工作有的確實是因為經濟的壓力急需一份工作可是他們去應徵的時候可能都會碰到可能是年齡的關係或者是時間有時候沒辦法配合"},{"start":7517.484,"end":7533.684,"text":"其他還有長輩需要照顧所以那個時間可能沒辦法配合那我也看到就是說你們有提出一個就是針對這個補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點的這個措施那我看到這個執行率好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":7534.718,"end":7536.919,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":7552.295,"end":7553.856,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條之一"},{"start":7565.769,"end":7566.769,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具"},{"start":7584.309,"end":7586.972,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":7604.087,"end":7623.516,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條條文修正草案：立法院第"},{"start":7625.391,"end":7630.797,"text":"第二十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":7648.234,"end":7650.495,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會議"},{"start":7674.286,"end":7691.731,"text":"兩年內目前是14處了,那陸陸續續還會增加,那我們其實就會讓績效慢慢的把它能夠提升上來。好,那有這樣的一個據點我希望你們也要多宣傳,因為很多他們不知道可能就也是"},{"start":7692.671,"end":7697.993,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會長青中心等16人擬具"},{"start":7720.122,"end":7728.648,"text":"來奉獻給社會可以工作又來解決勞動力的缺口。謝謝。謝謝。有請王婉玉、王委員。主席有請勞動部許部長。有請部長。"},{"start":7746.463,"end":7765.141,"text":"網路委員好部長你好我們知道過去這個勞退救治的情況之下勞工需要在同一個事業單位累積一定的年資才符合勤領退休金的條件嘛那如果他早上工作被解僱又或者是被迫離職就沒有辦法累積年資又或者是曾經也出現過許多的事業單位惡性倒閉等等造成勞工無法勤領退休金"},{"start":7765.561,"end":7789.176,"text":"所以我們看到這個勞退薪制從2005年上路之後的確來解決了這個部分我想這部分是不可諱言也應該給予肯定的勞退薪制是採用個人的帳戶制之下讓勞工不會因為轉換事業單位而中斷年資可是呢我們也看到在勞退薪制的上路之後大家一直在反映的是我們的勞工團體也一直在訴求的是政府只告訴勞工朋友們勞退薪制可以讓他們更有機會領到退休金"},{"start":7790.777,"end":7810.855,"text":"可是沒有說的是在於這樣子的退休金其實是大打折扣的我們以2021年的勞工的薪資的中位數大約51萬來計算他的年資以及退休金如果是以勞退救資來計算總共加起來大概是191萬元的勞退的這個退休金但是以勞退薪資"},{"start":7811.816,"end":7836.13,"text":"僱主提撥6%的比例來說是只有91萬所以比如說在這樣的情況之下就可以很明顯的是如果我們希望能夠讓他們保障到請領的退休金是一樣的情況之下回推回去僱主的提撥比例應該要是高達12.5%我想這個部長您一定很清楚勞工團體們一直在訴求的是我們希望能夠提高僱主的提撥比例當然我也知道部長一直在講"},{"start":7837.25,"end":7851.195,"text":"這個6%是最低的部分其實可以透過老資協議來做增加但是我們也看到相較之下在今年的2023在今年的7月公務人員的退府薪資上路之後強制提撥15%其中政府的負擔是65%意思就換算過來是"},{"start":7854.356,"end":7875.466,"text":"貴族的提撥率高達9.75%。」我覺得這就是再次的打臉勞工朋友所以我們也看到說的確啊這個6%是最低的部分可以透過勞資協議來做提升不過我們也要跟部長這邊來做一個提醒和回憶就今年七月的時候下一頁今年七月的時候中華電信工會也有發起了要來調高勞退僱主的提撥比例的的遊行"},{"start":7876.226,"end":7878.909,"text":"而實際上研究之後最終中華電信公司也跳票了他表示說提撥比率涉及了政府的修法所以不願意調整"},{"start":7899.048,"end":7927.497,"text":"所以我想跟部長報告的是即便是這6%是最低但是包括連中華電信和中華電信工會是相對來說比較大的工會了來跟雇主做協商都是這樣的情況是完全沒有辦法提升而且公司仍然認為這個6%是政府明定的所以要調整其實是需要政府來做修法更恍惚其他的雇主以及其他的勞工朋友們根本很難達到這樣的比例啦所以我想這個議題部長你一定很清楚當時其實你也曾經有承諾"},{"start":7928.157,"end":7949.19,"text":"而當時在因為總統在參加在六月參加全國工會的會員代表大會的時候也提到這部分會持續的來做溝通所以我們其實有兩個問題想要請部長來做說明第一個是這個6%的比例到底實際上有多少的雇主願意提高超過6%還有這個在高於6%的提撥率的情況之下有多少是透過勞資協議來達成的"},{"start":7952.54,"end":7978.049,"text":"包括委員齁目前那個顧主提繳率超過6%的大概有3,532家的事業單位啦。占比?占比大概百分之0.61啦。是,所以非常少,連百分之一都不到。尤其是剛剛其實中華電信的工會就已經是一個很明顯的例子。即便像他們是工會比較嚴謹比較大一些些,即便是中華電信都不認為這個6%以上是他們應該要來共同討論的。因為他當然他"},{"start":7981.73,"end":7992.619,"text":"三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8007.287,"end":8013.772,"text":"如果我們提高一年的話整個的法定成本就是增加大概將近390億"},{"start":8015.694,"end":8040.702,"text":"所以這件事情當然要去公開我想老公朋友今天之所以覺得很不公平的或是覺得很受到委屈的是在於我們新救治比起來真的是差非常的多這個部分是剛剛才提到說像這個公務員員退服薪資上路之後其實算起來也是在9.75%那當然我們很希望能夠台灣慢慢發展成勞資的權利是更加平等地位是更加平等透過勞資協商來做推進可是實務上部長您剛剛的數據其實就很明顯的呈現出來"},{"start":8045.563,"end":8068.718,"text":"不管勞工朋友喊得多大聲,多麼希望透過勞資協定來做處理,可是實際上的發生率不到1%。即便連剛才報告的中華電信這樣子的公司、這樣子的工會都沒有辦法讓他們的僱主能夠願意來承擔,甚至是僱主表示這必須要透過修法,難道我們修法不應該來更加來保障勞工朋友的權益嗎?"},{"start":8069.835,"end":8076.658,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第16期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8091.223,"end":8092.424,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8110.053,"end":8130.535,"text":"參議院總統其實也曾經承諾過說勞動部會來繼續做努力和溝通我們也想請教一下從六月參議院總統承諾要來做溝通到現在我們做了哪些部分和演繹的方向如何以及什麼時候會有一個比較具體的目標這個部分其實我們這個溝通我說是要真正溝通不是說我嘴巴上溝通而已是"},{"start":8131.229,"end":8143.969,"text":"但說實在這件事情當然不是那麼容易啦因為就是要說服是啊所以我們一定要看到實際上做了哪些事情啊所以從六月到現在進行了哪些規封跟哪些單位做了溝通那我們其實就是"},{"start":8145.649,"end":8149.751,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具〈勞工退休金條例第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8172.805,"end":8187.39,"text":"這部分有沒有具體溝通的哪些事情還是就是沒有回答的意思就是沒有溝通?包委我們的溝通方式是多元的啦或許不是正式的一個召開的會議說叫勞資雙方都來就是說在各種場合"},{"start":8188.7,"end":8190.742,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8213.426,"end":8230.867,"text":"獎勵免稅的機制或是減稅的機制來提高他們的補補的可能性所以我們想請教對於這個方向部長有沒有一個想法或者是如何能夠來支持又或者是不支持這樣的方向因為剛才提到如果法定要提高6%一直說要溝通但是完全提不出具體溝通是什麼那我們希望雇主主動來提高提撥率"},{"start":8232.308,"end":8252.344,"text":"那我們如何來鼓勵僱主來提高?不要再說我們要透過勞資協議了因為部長你的數據已經打臉了你們自己說的透過勞資協議可以來提高,只有不到1%上路了18年不到1%我相信這個勞資協議真的非常困難當然對這些僱主要希望他們能夠來接受說"},{"start":8253.34,"end":8264.305,"text":"提高這個提撥率強制的提撥率那這個部分當然也要有一些誘因那這些誘因就是說可能就是必須大家跨部會來做討論因為這個有時候會牽涉到稅賦的問題這個部分我們"},{"start":8268.687,"end":8271.408,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8294.915,"end":8311.765,"text":"我想大家希望朝這個目標不是說就把目標放在那邊就會達到而是真的要有進程做了些什麼至少可以告訴大家我覺得大家之所以現在會很生氣的就是在於我們完全看不到路徑更不能相信我們的目標有可能會達到更不相信政府的誠意在哪裡我想"},{"start":8312.525,"end":8335.172,"text":"議員您一定很知道勞工朋友的辛苦,您剛剛數據也很明顯地呈現出來,要靠勞資協議其實是非常非常的困難。即便我們推動倡議了十幾年,到現在仍然不到1%是超過6%的。所以這就是為什麼我們希望能夠看得到,如果不論是強制又或者是鼓勵,我們都要有清楚的路徑,又或者是至少讓我們看到政府願意努力的吧。"},{"start":8337.013,"end":8360.235,"text":"我會擇由業務單位來做一個規劃就是說我們就這個議題的部分我們一個具體的規劃兩個部分都有具體的規劃一個月內給我們方便嗎?就是一個是能不能朝著6%的部分又法規面上來提升第二個是如果我們透過獎勵的部分我們能如何來做處理因為我還是要再次強調勞工朋友們都在講的是6%不夠花老後被打趴"},{"start":8360.615,"end":8383.383,"text":"我想這個部分6%是大家長期以來的訴求希望能夠提升不論是用修法又或者是退而求其是政府用鼓勵的措施來做努力我覺得這應該要具體來做面對不要再講了十幾年說透過勞資協議透過團體協約我們可以做事實上數據就知道這就是完全非常困難的一件事情了不應該把這樣的責任放到勞工朋友自己要去爭取我覺得勞動部"},{"start":8384.923,"end":8398.83,"text":"絕對有責任也必須要承擔起勞工朋友的權益。」希望部長能夠在一個月內把這兩項具體未來會規劃的方式和討論的方式告訴我們,跟大家做一個報告和說明。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。謝謝,有請林威洲、林委員。謝謝昭偉,請部長。有請部長。"},{"start":8418.287,"end":8441.421,"text":"好,徐部長今天我們要審查勞工退休金條例齁這個其中有七個案子是要推動新制勞工退休金自選投資請問部長你覺得勞工退休金投資最重要的他的目的是什麼賺錢還是"},{"start":8445.214,"end":8469.108,"text":"獲利增加他將來的勞工退休金能夠更多﹖就是,報告委員,他的投資一定是要,第一個一定要安全,能夠保本﹖安全,安全更重要﹖然後穩健,當然收益,當然想要自選就希望能夠多賺一點,這個投資收益,所以這個都是我想自選的一個他們希望達到的"},{"start":8470.147,"end":8490.217,"text":"其他的退休基金有沒有這個制度、治權?比如說公教人員﹑私校退府、公務員退府新制,但是規模很小,我記得私校退府多少錢?"},{"start":8492.205,"end":8519.316,"text":"七百億左右而已。那我們自己勞退的話應該先要三兆,四點九兆。退休金喔,這個最主要的目的啦,我個人的理解,就是說要你平常在工作的時候有收入嘛,等到這個退休之後沒有收入,所以平常要等於儲備了一些將來"},{"start":8520.663,"end":8521.344,"text":"三、委員謝衣鳯等21人擬具"},{"start":8535.026,"end":8544.094,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全體委員會及委員劉世芳等16人擬具"},{"start":8553.161,"end":8571.075,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會及第17條條條文修正草案：立法院第17條條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第19條"},{"start":8572.275,"end":8586.382,"text":"也不要造成其他人家人的負擔國家的負擔但是你如果舍本族我認為啦如果舍本族問我說我預支將來的退休金然後來操作要來賺取更多的利潤"},{"start":8588.194,"end":8589.235,"text":"三、委員劉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":8604.458,"end":8628.539,"text":"所以你針對這個要訂定這個自選的條例的修法因為這幾年很多生意希望能夠自提自選就針對自體的部分能夠自選但是我們就是也認為說因為勞退這個事情它其實社會保險的一個角色就是像剛剛委員講的它是退休之後經濟生活安全的一個依靠"},{"start":8629.36,"end":8630.401,"text":"當你面對像去年那種金融市場整個股債都下跌的情況下"},{"start":8647.312,"end":8650.014,"text":"立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第15條條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8662.861,"end":8663.862,"text":"兩年定存利率的一個獲利給你。事實上這幾年的"},{"start":8692.505,"end":8695.066,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8714.179,"end":8731.57,"text":"對他就說那當初都是政府理的草案然後立法院委員通過的那當初的制度是你們幫我決定的我是覺得勞工還是比較辛苦的一群有時候這件事情我會覺得說雖然我們抱著開放的態度但是還是要多聽各界的聲音"},{"start":8732.23,"end":8743.845,"text":"所以針對這個修法我覺得應該慎重慎重然後要多聽一些意見甚至召開公聽會等等然後也要比較其他的這個"},{"start":8745.384,"end":8747.046,"text":"一、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":8766.964,"end":8772.728,"text":"及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條之一"},{"start":8789.56,"end":8813.475,"text":"保證收益的角色。安全性已經保障了,但是如何讓他有更高的收益,恐怕是更好的、更穩健的辦法。我們之後還會繼續討論,我想今天可能也不會就很快的進入主條。再來我再請教關於這個開放服務業外勞的"},{"start":8816.417,"end":8819.199,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":8836.015,"end":8841.439,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議"},{"start":8863.695,"end":8886.653,"text":"整個開放如果要開放服務業移工對我們的族群對我們的性別就業的影響評估那這個部分我我們大概是這樣目前還沒有說什麼時候來討論但是我們會等觀光署把他的補充評估報告送來那並同我們勞動部所做的這些就業影響評估報告我們再來請專家開會做檢視"},{"start":8891.416,"end":8908.831,"text":"解釋之後我們才會適時的去提我們這個政策小組來評估來討論OK今天早上我們看到那個新聞就是說嘉義關子這個飯店業者兩百四十一間房間爭公務"},{"start":8911.257,"end":8918.884,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條條文修正草案：立法院第10屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":8928.119,"end":8929.04,"text":"兩萬六兩萬六這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":8948.781,"end":8976.168,"text":"他們如果希望說開放外勞進口就移工讓他進來當然他們願意移工願意接受這個薪資本勞大概很難接受這樣的薪資所以這個將來都會有這樣的衝突一旦開放之後那個行業就會變成都是移工外籍移工本勞就進不去"},{"start":8977.335,"end":9005.199,"text":"大家要想像一下,兩萬六我就請得到,兩萬六千四我請到技工,還會修水電,本來沒有人會做啦,老實講。那個行業開放了,那就將來通通是外勞了。假設,我現在先假設說,如果連計程車開放,我看以後通通計程車都是外勞,那只要基本薪資。外送員如果開放了,他外送我看以後通通是外勞在做。"},{"start":9006.636,"end":9009.73,"text":"就移工在座了。本國勞工怎麼辦?"},{"start":9012.813,"end":9039.729,"text":"所以這個都是要整體去考量我們看到很多的行業都是開放了外勞之後那本勞就很難進入那個行業那反而就這個會衍生其他問題當然對僱主來講他有外勞的選擇外籍義工的選擇但是勞工的角度來看的話這個很多領域就變成本勞進不去啦"},{"start":9040.908,"end":9056.779,"text":"所以這個都要整體考量包括你們現在在研擬的所謂引進印度移工這個都要好好的大家來討論他衍生的一些效應都要一併的考慮好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝你們有請邱太遠、邱委員"},{"start":9072.214,"end":9094.813,"text":"謝謝召委、主席。我們請部長。請部長。部長,我想今天的主題,我們都在關心勞工的福利,那很多委員也都提了很多的見解。我想對於我們未來在修正,不管是政策"},{"start":9096.318,"end":9124.407,"text":"規定各方面應該有大的幫助。」我想我都很願意跟大家一起來共同努力。那有一些另外的主題可能我們以前也關心,那現在我再請教一下,我們看下一張。我想勞動力的穩定還是未來,我們台灣要一直去注意的事情。這可以怕人命。當然看起來是有來源,應該有四個方向,這個我們以前有討論過。"},{"start":9126.403,"end":9151.23,"text":"生育率提高,這有在表嗎?有,這個就是我們現在就是各部會努力啦,國家跟你一起養,希望其他生育率...好,好,好,那第二就是那個促進中高齡、高齡就業,這等一下再請教,那怎麼樣讓可能想要或者動機有沒有都可以的勞動人口來"},{"start":9153.103,"end":9176.15,"text":"以彌補我們現在職場上所需要的當然第四個當然剛剛韋哲偉有提到的擔心各方面這個我們都會謹慎來進行這個我想這幾個方向是大家過去一直在討論跟努力的看下一張好了好那我想我們看起來來看一下資料好像我們的一個"},{"start":9178.112,"end":9206.473,"text":"六十五或者是我們退休平均年齡好像比較早比其他國家不曉得你們那邊有沒有統計那好像再回來工作的就業率會比較低這補貼你們過去我們拍片這段時間到現在有沒有碰到什麼困難困難就是說第一個我是覺得我們可能雇主雇主的刻板印象對於中高齡高齡的就業或者"},{"start":9207.159,"end":9208.159,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9225.969,"end":9229.912,"text":"二、委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9247.623,"end":9251.064,"text":"其中為了以前的長照的照顧,我們在大概二十年前曾經在雲林那邊推動"},{"start":9276.277,"end":9294.379,"text":"其中六十五位及七十退休的、七十五位來照顧七十五位醫療的老人。不過那個時候是用志工,也真的在媒介,很努力在媒介。當然後來可能也沒有延續,都是創造一些模式。"},{"start":9295.66,"end":9323.017,"text":"那後續當然可能也不一定有延續,但是總是有創造一些模式出來。那他山之子可以工作,我們現在發現我個人的感覺好像聽說日本比較蠻多很多年紀比較大的,都出來去做一種可能他們做得了的,甚至在餐飲內的服務。可能很多人在餐飲內服務是希望年輕一點的,但是"},{"start":9323.891,"end":9348.947,"text":"有些餐飲我覺得只要有人來把它處理好就好了。這個我們還不可以再了解說日本是怎麼做的還是其他國家是怎麼做的。這個部分當然就是說他們可能傳統上他們其實善用這些中高齡高齡銀髮族的人力啦那我們也現在也在鼓勵雇主就是說"},{"start":9350.236,"end":9350.676,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具第十七條之一"},{"start":9361.596,"end":9362.536,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9391.267,"end":9418.483,"text":"就是我們進場去幫他媒合這些中高齡或高齡者那讓他們在這個勞動力的來源上能夠更迅速的去獲得填補我想我們有在做那當然就一直檢討成果跟看怎麼樣有精進的策略這可能要不斷的努力才能改變文化能改變大家的心態"},{"start":9419.981,"end":9448.223,"text":"當然在體能方面我們也是一個問題但是這個部分我相信只要媒合適當的體能部分大概沒有問題就是說我們那個植物再我們有在跟僱主溝通說其實我們可以有專家進去幫他做植物再設計讓這個整個流程更適合這些壯士代的工作人再來就是我們有輔具輔具每年每個人每年你只要拼用這些壯士代勞工每人每年有十萬塊的"},{"start":9449.424,"end":9472.777,"text":"其中一人擬具的費用可以來補助你,那這個都可以減輕他們在工作上,譬如說要搬重或者各種不便了,那這個部分我們也一直在做一些宣導讓戶主知道。我們以前在推這個計畫的時候,那個法案的時候當然我們也擔心說會去搶年輕人的位子,可是畢竟還是有很多"},{"start":9475.003,"end":9487.878,"text":"人不能說現在那個困境,像沒錢了怎麼辦?很多啊,像我們在弄健保也是很痛苦啊。我想國家政府還有醫界也都很頭痛啊。"},{"start":9490.446,"end":9515.976,"text":"總是要創造它的價值,不能就是卡死在那裡,當然來創造我們的智慧。我想這個部分,很多政策不是不能做,而是怎麼把它做得好。我們現在其實是整體的缺工,所以不會有說去搶青年人工作的問題。部長我請教你,你覺得我們現在有年輕人都跑去哪邊工作?"},{"start":9517.452,"end":9542.734,"text":"好像很多人都在缺人力,都在家裡,家裡有錢都不用出來工作,你們有沒有去統計一下?其實很多都到服務業批發零售那邊去啦,批發零售業。批發零售業,有需要那麼多人喔?原來了解年輕人都早就在做行為。"},{"start":9545.382,"end":9548.606,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":9565.058,"end":9574.504,"text":"現在的年輕人沒辦法結合我們大概七成的年輕人喜歡在服務業我們大概有七成的年輕人畢業以後的年輕人喜歡在服務業"},{"start":9579.165,"end":9584.269,"text":"但是我們其實現在也有投資青年就業方向,希望把它導向創業產業。對文化的一個形成會比較好,看現在這樣好了。那李姓的閣人其實有,我們也是最近我們開始關心這些那個"},{"start":9605.512,"end":9618.864,"text":"很多人,他小孩子也長,也稍微大了齁,想說不然退休可以發揮一下這樣齁。這個部分,不曉得我們勞動部這個部分對這個主題的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":9619.642,"end":9632.371,"text":"對,我們現在有一個,我們今天9月1號就是有一個婦女再就業計畫,三年的計畫,預計是說大概三年內希望增加14萬名的女性勞動力,那這個計畫包括說給這個女性,因為她可能離開職場一段時間了,"},{"start":9637.654,"end":9644.963,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":9656.676,"end":9665.881,"text":"第二十五條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條及第八條條文"},{"start":9675.285,"end":9676.785,"text":"三、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":9699.246,"end":9724.485,"text":"一些方向出來,那另外在勞動部這邊,我們未來就是會針對那個來源國的仲介,要求他要負連帶責任。這個當然是一個方法,但是不一定是好方法,還是可以再討論。那這個主題也請勞動部把後來的進展也給我們一下好了。當然在針對這個問題大家共同再來思考,好不好?好,感謝大家。謝謝主席。"},{"start":9730.478,"end":9756.175,"text":"下一位請紅山安紅委員請許部長劉勤部長"},{"start":9763.359,"end":9766.16,"text":"兩人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9780.06,"end":9782.462,"text":"第二十三條及第五十八條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":9804.4,"end":9831.287,"text":"這一起是11月底的時候發生在林口的公安意外這個意外的事件跟臺中終結的事件很像都是吊車斷裂、掉落、砸在公車停但在這個事件還好人跑得快沒有被砸傷不想這些發生在工作場所或者是生活周遭公安的事故其實現在擔心的不只是勞工囉"},{"start":9832.991,"end":9856.128,"text":"連附近的居民都很擔心,部長你可以體會跟了解嗎?是。好。部長所以如果你知道如果住家附近的工地發生事故有鷹架或者是這些其中的吊壁工人掉下來你走在附近你會不會有點擔心?會。會嗎?會。會齁。好。大家都很擔心啊可是現在看到這麼多的新聞齁"},{"start":9857.785,"end":9886.542,"text":"我的辦公室其實也會接到民眾的電話大家會來詢問這些發生在附近的案件到底政府有沒有去檢查檢查完以後有沒有改善有沒有去罰其實大家都要問這個問題所以現在民眾很擔心沒有督導那也很擔心這些災難會發生在自己的身上更擔心會不會就像臺中的林淑雅老師的這個事件"},{"start":9889.035,"end":9900.232,"text":"議員,這些悲劇你會不會想預防?當然。如果可以建立預警機制的話會不會想建立?當然要建立。好。議員,我相信你的回答是這樣"},{"start":9903.687,"end":9918.96,"text":"現在台灣的建築工地這麼多勞工不可能也不一定有量能一一的去勞檢所以我自己覺得這裡面一個很關鍵的事情是要怎麼把高風險的名單給建立起來甚至對外揭露可能很重要部長同意嗎同意"},{"start":9920.883,"end":9948.992,"text":"在去年的四月我其實曾經開了一場記者會這場記者會的主題叫做沒有死傷的公安事故沒人管在這場記者會上面我其實要求勞動部應該彙整並公開公安事故的紀錄還有後續勞檢的紀錄那在今年五月的時候我其實也質詢過勞動部那當時勞動部的李俊逸次長那也承諾會建立一個公開查詢的系統"},{"start":9950.253,"end":9953.236,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":9969.161,"end":9986.23,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第"},{"start":9994.963,"end":10017.301,"text":"沒有死傷但發生這些事情也是高風險的地方啊沒死傷可能只是這次運氣好啊就像剛才在公車停可能只是下面的人跑得快啊但部長後來勞動部做了什麼我在做這個要求後部長知不知道勞動部後來做了什麼部長知不知道我們有開會部長後來治安署創了一個叫做媒體報導重大災害訊息"},{"start":10024.504,"end":10042.309,"text":"將媒體有報導的才放上來但請部長看一下這些內容其實我們都不會知道事故發生的地點在哪裡也不知道是哪個廠商後續到底發了什麼或者有沒有改善什麼在這一個媒體重大災害訊息裡面我們都看不到我們都看不到"},{"start":10045.413,"end":10072.207,"text":"所以如果民眾看完回到勞動部的裁罰系統裡面因為他也不知道發生日期跟發生地點所以他也不知道到底是不是同一個案件我這邊提醒勞工部一件事情就是你們的現在甚至我們看到你們的這個系統甚至喔直接貼上來直接把職災的受害者的姓名直接公布出來喔然後公布一年多都沒有拿掉喔"},{"start":10073.311,"end":10092.251,"text":"所以部長這個系統我們發現是該公佈的沒公佈不該公佈的卻把它公佈在上面一年多沒有拿下來反而不該被揭露的受害者不能被放在上面所以部長你覺得這個系統需不需要改善"},{"start":10093.45,"end":10121.965,"text":"委員這個要改善,這樣的一個系統這樣的揭露我覺得很不OK所以我所理解的是他們目前在明年1月1號馬上會上線的就是我們一個勞動部違反勞動法律世界單位財運系統有關職安衛的部分會增加有發生日期發生地"},{"start":10123.461,"end":10130.985,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":10140.487,"end":10166.66,"text":"你知道你們開了一個研商會議嗎?研商會議公佈的範圍限縮在職安法第37條第三項也就是勞動部已經有去檢查和處分的案件裡只有勞工死亡跟重傷才要公佈發生日期跟發生地點我不知道你知不知道這件事情他把它限縮了所以我的意思是什麼?更簡單跟大家說像是我們現在已經發生的已經去勞檢裁罰的終結"},{"start":10169.639,"end":10193.655,"text":"的這個事件還有這次林口吊車斷裂事故的事件按照現在的職安法第37條第三項裡面對不起按照你們召開的研商會議的記錄都是不用公開的喔因為裡面沒有勞工死亡對不起死亡的是終結事件死亡的是陳克林蘇亞老師不是勞工死亡"},{"start":10195.638,"end":10217.957,"text":"所以按照你們現在研商會議的內容像終結事件像是剛才說的這個林口吊車斷裂事件都是不用公開的喔徐副長我們說既然說要公開為什麼不把就把事情給做到位如果大家上去查發現欸"},{"start":10221.291,"end":10246.244,"text":"明明這麼嚴重的終結的事件結果在上面居然沒有記錄不用公開民眾的感受是什麼?部長你知不知道現在我們的要公佈的範圍被嚴重限縮只有勞工死亡才要所以終結事故是不用公開的這個齁我是覺得治安署你們再要再整個再檢討一下啦我覺得"},{"start":10246.994,"end":10254.558,"text":"這件事情我覺得委員關心好幾次我覺得我們要做就把它做好該揭露的就揭露了"},{"start":10258.165,"end":10285.344,"text":"我知道職安署會說這是法規問題我要說這件事情其實環境部還在環保署的時候還是署的時候其實都已經做到了啦在他們的系統裡面其實採儲的日期採儲的公司名稱違反的日期其實都一清二楚我甚至曾經都建議過勞動部你甚至都可以把假如它有改善你也可以把它放到網路上面去我也沒意見"},{"start":10287.416,"end":10304.247,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12條條文修正草案：立法院第13屆第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14次全體委員會及第14"},{"start":10306.889,"end":10318.001,"text":"這是把高風險的狀況給預警出來現在我認為現在治安署不乾不脆甚至自己先說為什麼環保署做得到的事情為什麼勞工部做不到?署長為什麼?"},{"start":10322.826,"end":10345.247,"text":"我們執法法對有些項目是沒有授權揭露這邊我們想或許明年我們執法法修法的時候把這個法規授權更有效的讓我們來做執行我想這是我們會先處理的那至於說委員這兩次這兩個月一直不督導我們我們非常感謝因為揭露資訊讓民眾來的空間都是我們也是認為是非常核心的重點"},{"start":10345.908,"end":10372.48,"text":"那至於說是全部都揭露我們有一些法規的部分的我個人覺得還是要有法規所以比較得當了。署長我對你這個說法我要挑戰這是你們做的行政處分欸你們做的行政處分有什麼好不能揭露的你們是偷偷摸摸嗎?你們自己去勞檢有處罰這是你們做的行政處分為什麼不能揭露?只要把必要的各自的資訊給隱蔽起來"},{"start":10376.476,"end":10386.723,"text":"這什麼地方不能揭露你告訴我這是你們行政處分我沒有要去公佈他們的商業機密啊你只要把個資隱蔽起來為什麼不能揭露你給我一個理由署長這跟法規授權對不起這是你們的行政處分欸你們去勞檢以後只是因為他沒有勞工死亡為什麼這樣就不能揭露"},{"start":10406.277,"end":10427.016,"text":"我聽不懂我知道有法規授權更好但我完全聽不懂為什麼你們行政處分不能讓社會知道難道現在勞動部網站上面的所有公開的行政處分都是有法規都一條一條授權才可以嗎我不知道為什麼行政處分不能夠讓社會大眾知道"},{"start":10428.365,"end":10430.327,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10450.868,"end":10475.533,"text":"市長我提醒一件事情之前我們在修責安法的時候我們其實也討論過揭露的問題當初責安署跟大家的說法都是說啊不要寫太細啦結果現在不要寫太細變成你們不揭露的理由了報告委員責安法是102年修的不是我說當時我們在討論相關的事情的時候我們都會說我們不要寫太細我現在意思是說市長事實是可以揭露的事情"},{"start":10476.701,"end":10478.522,"text":"立法院第10屆第8會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12條之一"},{"start":10498.639,"end":10499.58,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10530.5,"end":10554.851,"text":"你讓大家知道這個僱主或者是這個老闆他有做的努力我也不反對但現在不是啊我覺得現在是這個像擠牙膏一樣一點一點一點可是整個看起來就達不到預警機制的這個效果啊部長你覺得多久時間我們可以把這事情給做好金額的部分確實要請保護師來幫忙不是講一個時間嘛"},{"start":10557.456,"end":10558.137,"text":"兩月我們處理好了。"},{"start":10583.982,"end":10584.603,"text":"陳佩瑜、陳委員請部長"},{"start":10604.701,"end":10613.614,"text":"部長您好,我們時間有限,我想問一下部長您有出現在最新的這一本所有台灣的爸爸媽媽幾乎都會看的雜誌,不知道您自己有沒有印象?"},{"start":10616.212,"end":10618.374,"text":"三、委員吳淑儀等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第十八條之一"},{"start":10637.392,"end":10665.578,"text":"在日本跟香港跟台灣卻呈現負成長。關於這個缺工的問題,或者是勞工本身在企業端工作的很多訴求,不知道部長您這邊在接受完這個雜誌的訪問之後,您認為友善家庭職場在勞動部這邊,如果您快速想到您覺得您還能做些什麼事情,協助勞工在勞動現場可以覺得更友善的被對待,然後也願意生養下一代。部長您覺得,從勞動部的角度您覺得可以做哪些事情?"},{"start":10668.144,"end":10673.826,"text":"其中一人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第十七條之一"},{"start":10684.83,"end":10712.604,"text":"年輕世代的爸爸媽媽對於自己到職場上實現自我的專長實現自我的天分這件事情其實大家對於工作是有些想像跟企圖心的可是一旦把這個企圖心切回到職場現實的時候部長我先考你一下你覺得年輕的爸媽他們在意職場的哪些因素會讓他們更願意留在職場或者是在職場實踐自我當中還願意生育下一代您覺得年輕世代的爸媽在意什麼樣的事情"},{"start":10715.765,"end":10716.145,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具"},{"start":10730.472,"end":10755.08,"text":"好那沒關係部長我跟您報告第一個是彈性工時佔65%的爸爸媽媽最在意有沒有辦法彈性工時第二個如同您說的七有沒有機會設置零拖或者是幼兒園第三個是居家上班也就是在疫情之後的遠距工作的可能性這三個比例是年輕世代的爸媽最在意的事情可是我想要請部長看一下這個投影片的上端"},{"start":10755.66,"end":10774.556,"text":"其實大部分的父親跟母親都有想要工作的企圖心你看喔在兼職工作或是全職工作的比例都很高對嗎?全職月的比例其實不高也就是說大家這個世代年輕的爸媽他們對於自己在職場上是有些想像的可是勞動部有沒有機會提供這樣的職場環境給予勞工們?部長您覺得呢?"},{"start":10780.084,"end":10797.285,"text":"對,就是說可能在,因為可能有些職場是可以提供彈性,有些職場可能比較不容易,那我覺得我們應該先從可以提供彈性這個公使的這些職場鼓勵雇主能夠來"},{"start":10799.927,"end":10814.501,"text":"來做到落實。」那勞動部的角度我們來看一下其實勞動部一直有一個工作生活平衡獎啦也就是說勞動部在這個議題上並不是沒有作為可是我們來看一下這個評審項目有包含這些那生活平衡獎我們來看一下"},{"start":10815.762,"end":10841.458,"text":"而勞動部這個生活平衡獎裡面有一個彈性工作獎也就是可能是彈性工時或者是彈性工作地點也就是說勞動部其實可能在幾年前就有意識到這個事情是重要的或者是友善家庭的部分勞動部在這個獎項裡面有一個單獨的項目叫做友善家庭可是我們來看在相關勞動部的這些獎勵鼓勵措施當中對於企業端的實質上更積極的鼓勵或者是互動溝通過往以"},{"start":10843.459,"end":10872.135,"text":"一往以來都是比較被動的他就是一個被動接受企業的報名可是報名之後他們得到的可能就是一個獎牌我們看了然後相關一萬塊的相關獎品也不是獎金我們想要問一下如果勞動部自己都已經辦了相關的獎項跟比賽而且每一年都做不是只有做一兩年那勞動部其實在這件事情上是有一些想法跟態度的可是可不可以更加的積極去服應更多年輕世代父母親的需求部長您自己的觀點怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":10872.867,"end":10891.005,"text":"其實我們辦這個獎項是讓這些這個算是一個幸福的企業他們的一些友善勞工的作為能夠讓更多的企業來學習他們作為一個標竿那所以當然"},{"start":10891.884,"end":10905.789,"text":"獎牌獎金那是那是個honor但是沒有辦法說給他們很多的一個獎金那如果我們不談獎牌獎金部長您覺得在勞動部的角度還可以做更多什麼事情我先提供一個數字這也是勞動部給這個雜誌說的勞動部統計臺灣受僱者在2020年平均年總工時為2008個小時在39個主要國家中排名第六甚至我們高於南韓的1904個小時高於日本的1626個小時"},{"start":10921.115,"end":10947.069,"text":"也就是說勞動部其實你們已經知道要做相關的事情不管是透過鼓勵措施或是相關企業對話可是可不可以更積極的回應更多年輕世代父母親的需求那我再跟部長報告最後一個議題其實今年諾貝爾獎這個得主他也提到了女性並沒有真的想要離開職場而是整個職場的環境的不友善讓年輕的女性他們必須要在而且部長您在裡面受訪也提到台灣有一個"},{"start":10948.089,"end":10950.11,"text":"三、委員溫玉霞等21人擬具 «勞工退休金條例第二十五條之一"},{"start":10969.514,"end":10980.582,"text":"三、委員有更多的討論跟相關的規劃措施不管是透過獎勵透過更多的跟職場的對話讓勞工在現場真的可以感受到而不是只有民間雜誌辦了這樣的票選或者是這樣的獎勵但是勞動部可能在這個議題上其實還不夠跟進民間的需求"},{"start":10987.788,"end":11009.738,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個部分的確勞動部還要再更有積極的作為那這邊我也會要求相關的業務單位一起來討論因為這個可能牽涉到跨單位那我們會來怎麼樣來讓企業能夠發展更多有效的措施然後政府又有一些鼓勵、獎勵來讓他們願意來做那這個部分我想我會來責成"},{"start":11015.06,"end":11029.111,"text":"相關業務單位來展現這個我們也都真的非常希望勞動部在後續可以做出更積極的事情不然我相信部長你在這個雜誌受訪的時候你一定心裡面也是在意這個事情而且你也願意認同這個價值好以上謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝有請楊委員謝謝主席主席有請一下許部長好有請部長"},{"start":11049.824,"end":11072.178,"text":"兩位好部長好部長我們今天討論勞工退休金條例我在這邊有一個問題想要請問你個人的看法就是說現在大概有一部分人因為我們現在勞工自體的退休金"},{"start":11073.018,"end":11086.187,"text":"是不可以自選操作標的嗎?那部長在這個議題上你的看法是覺得可以還是不可以?你比較傾向主張哪一個?"},{"start":11087.943,"end":11114.983,"text":"現在是不行嘛。像失效退福基金他大概已經可以了嘛。那勞工退休金有關勞工自體的部分,部長個人的看法是覺得?包委如果說是個人的看法,因為我是覺得退休金是勞工老年退休生活一個保障。"},{"start":11116.465,"end":11132.31,"text":"二、委員劉世芳等16人擬具:「勞工退休金條例第三條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十四條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案：立法院第十八條及第五十八條條文修正草案："},{"start":11145.121,"end":11170.676,"text":"自選的自體的部分如果自選他必須自擔風險那我是會比較擔心勞工這一部分如果當遇到像去年股債同聲下跌兩二三成的時候其實對勞工的一個一個損害是蠻大的所以這種情況我是認為這個部分我目前目前會比較保守一點部長的看法倒是跟我一致因為我覺得"},{"start":11174.86,"end":11199.586,"text":"勞工自提的退休金然後看起來日後是必須要來填補勞保年金給付不足共同建構勞工退休以後的生活保障可是這個又遇到一個問題就是說自提的部分其實是屬於他的財產"},{"start":11207.916,"end":11227.407,"text":"對嗎?限制勞工自行選擇投資標的這個本身就是跟財產所有有衝突第二個就是最重要的就是剛剛部長講的如何穩健獲利因為"},{"start":11230.484,"end":11259.353,"text":"自提的退休金假如說一直放著獲利不足其實它根本趕不上通貨膨脹這個是很大的問題我相信特別是在勞保年金給付沒有辦法增加的情況下我個人一直對勞退的部分是很關注的"},{"start":11261.32,"end":11279.966,"text":"所以剛剛部長有講到穩健獲利我們怎麼讓他穩健獲利包委我們現在當然整個這幾年的勞動基金的投資投資收益都還不錯啦我們平均大概都有4.64.6%我們也就是勝選投資標的不管是自操或委外"},{"start":11289.13,"end":11313.237,"text":"其在整個績效上都有有做一些要求就是務必要讓我們的勞工的勞本能夠有好的一個收益有好的收益那我是這個部分我們當然會持續來努力啦會持續來努力那因為我由你們來操作那有沒有"},{"start":11315.339,"end":11343.188,"text":"有最低獲利擔保的嗎?對不對?這兩年的定期嗎?一定是保證獲利的你最後一定是最少都有這個銀行兩年定存利率的一個獲益保證所以就是你現在就當然是政府限制你沒有辦法自體的去自選但是我同時也保證你一定是獲益的就不會讓你的退休金會棄給別人"},{"start":11348.188,"end":11360.813,"text":"這個當然還需要做更深的研究跟廣泛的討論因為我剛剛講過了其實字體的部分其實還是勞工自己的錢"},{"start":11363.874,"end":11375.809,"text":"所以我們也是態度上我們勞動部也是勞動部所以覺得說我們就開放的態度請聽各界的意見但是我們基本上還是要站在保護勞工的立場對因為這個跟"},{"start":11382.658,"end":11401.733,"text":"老闆幾父其實是有相關聯我接下來還是因為這個可能是本屆最後一次勞動部到委員會來了所以我還是把一些數據必須要講一下因為我一直覺得廣大的勞工"},{"start":11405.276,"end":11430.847,"text":"退休生活以後的保障其實是政府的責任而且在過幾年以後問題馬上就會出現那我也知道改革的困難因為勞工本身收入本來就要提高保費好像主力也大那保費不增加怎麼提高怎麼健全整個機制這個是"},{"start":11434.648,"end":11456.136,"text":"是政府必須要去非常有智慧去面對然後有勇氣去解決的我大概念幾個數字給部長聽聽看就知道勞保年金有多嚴重因為像在澎湖"},{"start":11459.648,"end":11488.98,"text":"相對於相對比較一般壽星階級的薪資沒有那麼高的地方其實我對於勞工的退休生活其實是還蠻憂心的。2022年呢我們大概就是勞工整體整體的領導的給付大概是一萬八千兩百九十四元台北市"},{"start":11490.168,"end":11503.311,"text":"同一年臺北市最低的生活費已經到了一萬八千六百八十二,也就是說勞工平均可以"},{"start":11509.585,"end":11529.455,"text":"可以得到的年金給付在台北市是已經低於最低生活費了而且這種情況會隨著通貨膨脹越來越嚴重整體的有六成的勞工年金給付低於兩萬"},{"start":11532.406,"end":11536.848,"text":"在這種情況下我們還每天在擔心勞保基金什麼時候會破產,這個才是最大的問題。"},{"start":11548.866,"end":11549.366,"text":"二、委員吳太太等16人擬具"},{"start":11565.023,"end":11583.744,"text":"負擔最終給負責任的條文,把它入法,盡速入法。其實你不入法還是常年在撥補了啦,政府不大可能讓勞保倒。而入法的好處是最少可以安定"},{"start":11584.505,"end":11599.874,"text":"安定超過一千萬的勞工的薪,讓他在工作的時候不用擔心退休以後日子怎麼過。好不好?好,不然我們一起努力。好,謝謝部長、謝謝主席。好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":11609.008,"end":11636.337,"text":"本日會議登記質詢委員已發言完畢委員楊耀所提出的書面質詢已列入刊登公報作以下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未答覆或請補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內以書面答覆委員利用要求"},{"start":11638.058,"end":11653.229,"text":"其限者從其鎖定：勞工退休金條例部分條文修正草案等15案,另則其繼續審查。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"15351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15351","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/cbbd4ed0b5fcd3a0f2e27e16159b429990eb5714c0999f5246d53a332764a5358da0752dbb5a04e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2023-12-12T16:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院黨團協商（事由：繼續研商「中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案」（公務預算部分））","type":"Full","date":"2023-12-12","start_time":"2023-12-12T15:30:02+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2023121259","term":10,"sessionPeriod":8},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2023-12-12T21:48:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":22678,"委員發言時間":"15:30:02 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即使國民黨有這個誠意 也希望說大家好好做下來好好協商預算 讓他能夠盡快完成審議這是前提那第二個就是 昨天民進黨是個執政黨 要面子"},{"start":2065.595,"end":2094.577,"text":"要離職還痛罵國民黨一頓這樣不是一個負責任的執政黨人該有的態度廖婉如提個案子要陸委會來說明到底界限傳了會會洋洋但是也沒有具體個案要講啊後來陸委會已經跟他說明了當場測案啊"},{"start":2097.031,"end":2121.171,"text":"作為中華民國的國會議員連邀請陸委會來說明這提案的內容都不行我不知道耶今夕是何夕呀今夕是何夕也就算了作為執政黨的黨團在柯董昭率領之下他的幹事長、他的書記長竟然開記者會"},{"start":2125.734,"end":2152.947,"text":"某黑某紅國民黨的立委我不知道啦我要問柯總召啦今夕是何夕這那麼多部長從國防部長、財政部長、主席長行業秘書長坐在裡還有唐鳳部長我跟各位報告我也坐在裡面我一直坐過我沒有看過這種執政黨"},{"start":2155.424,"end":2172.187,"text":"我長眼睛沒有看過這種執政黨我不曉得在座五位部會所長長眼睛有沒有看過我相信你們也沒看過這麼霸道、囂張的執政黨柯建平、總召你這領導的黨團我沒說完啊我沒說過三年間有什麼說完啊"},{"start":2184.915,"end":2204.831,"text":"所以我的要求 我的要求還沒講啊今天要進行後續的超越協商前提是柯建民總召要代表民進黨團 正式道歉才會幫他走下去 不然我們就繼續讓他留會吧"},{"start":2210.039,"end":2236.056,"text":"請問怎麼預算讓如期通過在休會前如期通過這是我們的共識至於說昨天有關昨天擦槍走火之事應該分為兩個部分我想每一個立法委員今天總共提起2000多個案子要經過查核協商以後可能會測案有可能改組結議這形勢有人但都很清楚"},{"start":2237.375,"end":2245.333,"text":"主要針對廖瑩瓊這個案子到底記者會以後撤案還是郭忠祐撤案都不論"},{"start":2246.311,"end":2273.89,"text":"但是我認為齁因為在朝野鄉中政府案子太多了各黨各不同立場嘛那執政黨在捍衛他的執政價值以及執政的政策那在場挑戰執政黨這有天經地義無可厚非那兩黨互相攻防也常常有所以針對廖仁這個案子不管怎麼樣竟然有車案這個其實"},{"start":2275.891,"end":2294.201,"text":"不管誰在先誰在後,像這種凍結案,當然可在朝野鄉來談,不必拿來搭做文章有點操作過急,這一點我不是代表他們有點操作過急,你聽我說就好"},{"start":2303.532,"end":2331.531,"text":"這罐案很多 凍結乃至於刪除 刪 那我們都找各位趕快去溝通在溝通還沒完成以前 我不認為我們黨黨成員拿這個出來做供給這個是恰當的 有點操之過急這點我代表我們黨黨抱歉 我們希望今天能夠走下去就好"},{"start":2332.27,"end":2336.887,"text":"至於另外一個案子就是說陳一貞的案子"},{"start":2338.356,"end":2366.184,"text":"海基位預算總共一億四千萬而已他要砍四千百萬這當然毀於所思這海基位就不是運作了但他的理由大家聽起來比較牽強很奇怪也就是說我們台商在金門找大金門去投資因為中共阻撓讓台商不能去所以這個招商就不是很理想"},{"start":2367.428,"end":2390.044,"text":"陳彥生以用這個理由來刪減海基會預算,我想這個搞錯對象但是呢,沒有關係陳彥生昨天晚上我在看電視的時候,他很堅持鼠威答應小山東合作,他堅持三年到底這點我沒有關係,這個到最後要表決處理所以,大家都知道,他最重要的是同學"},{"start":2392.325,"end":2412.759,"text":"太多了啦,要論的東西太多了那我從來不會說在協商中或協商還沒開始協商像我們進來的時候記者問我我說你不問我,我不會回答那個問題因為我們要跟他協商我怎麼可以在外面先荒拋嘛,這不好所以我說永遠秉持這個原則所以對他們總會操之過急"},{"start":2423.546,"end":2427.867,"text":"你這樣道歉我接受了但是我要問您我們黨長期執政會這樣對待在野黨嗎罵李子佑"},{"start":2461.907,"end":2474.958,"text":"昨天把個人的選舉拿來立法院 當作阻撓我們政黨協商 大家在立法院都已經這麼久了 知道說預算的提案"},{"start":2475.899,"end":2482.234,"text":"只是初步的在院長的預算協商的時候才會請所有的部會來說明嘛"},{"start":2483.448,"end":2509.693,"text":"甚至有一些部會已經來我的辦公室在昨天之前都已經來辦公室那有一些預算刪減案也已經都被委員會的刪減案處理了那我們都在加速政府預算的審理的情況那沒有想到要破壞都已經是慣例的事情要拿來當作"},{"start":2512.031,"end":2539.839,"text":"指稱我個人的提案我覺得這是非常不當的這是會破壞整個協商的這樣子的一個互信的基礎那這樣子大家怎麼協商下去呢我們知道給在野黨協商是在立法院裡面你們過半數以後也要給在野的小黨他們有表達意見的權利嗎 是不是"},{"start":2542.594,"end":2544.836,"text":"有關於鄭文忠委員﹚剛才所發言﹚以及謝鴻偉所發言﹚在過去"},{"start":2565.697,"end":2589.378,"text":"我在這裡30年,隨便亂論。我在當執政黨的時間和當在野黨的時間各一半,但是我總召之後20年。所以我非常了解立法院這是一個政治的禁忌場所,但是有些潛規則大家還是要守著。比如說以前沒有直播的時候,我跟論壇協商的話,裡面誰講的話,到目前為止,"},{"start":2590.299,"end":2599.708,"text":"我們私下談的或是在行政中心談的我絕對不會出去做新聞或是去攻擊人這是我長期以來所以大家才有互信的基礎"},{"start":2602.551,"end":2623.757,"text":"你不要再轉了不要再打了,按就好按就好這是一個互信的基礎那因為現在網路時代所以消息資訊傳遞很快那這個馬上有些直擊新聞,過去也沒有這個回事所以我在這裡還是比較懇切的講就是說總預算通過就是"},{"start":2628.678,"end":2638.375,"text":"要有成比例,不成比例的手法全部不成總預算才不好是對彼此都不好,對院長也不好,對整個國家也不好那我已經講過,我們會秉持這個原則"},{"start":2643.587,"end":2668.498,"text":"在協商還是溝通中的事情,我們就不要拿出來比如工具,這樣才大家要互信嘛那過去,你說國民黨常任執政,國民黨常任執政實施的時候,我民國80年進來那2000年的時候,都是國民黨執政但是呢,那時候我們現在執政是比較就是說,好全部拿出來案子,然後到各位去溝通"},{"start":2670.519,"end":2697.57,"text":"過去根本沒有這回事,過去說下來直接大家沉香舌戰因為現在環境面不一樣,有所謂公入門公入門會看大家提案,提案數,所以大家要一直製造案子37年總預算大概四五千案,但後來在國中一直少所以我們偶爾覺得提案有的,像過去曾經也有一個案子"},{"start":2698.55,"end":2721.873,"text":"拆成五十個案子一樣3.0.1、0.2、0.3、0.4、0.5這樣搞法阿這衝一樣嘛阿給公眾們看所以立法委員要做自己比較重要我想我們共同這樣美麗阿那今天我們對於齁在學生中的在國共中的不應該拿出來做彼此攻擊等到表決完畢要罵再來罵也可以阿是不是這樣"},{"start":2723.395,"end":2723.815,"text":"我講得很實情喔"},{"start":2744.685,"end":2757.59,"text":"議員大家都要各負責,包括今天對立公知法,我們上台講我們的話,你們上台講你的話,就大家罵嘛,即便已經院會結束以後,有人再出來開舉再罵一次,因為坦白講這個有"},{"start":2759.17,"end":2778.997,"text":"法案是很專業的,從一個角度看儀館揮爆,從另外一個角度看是不一樣的所以才會造成政治上很多衝突來糾紛,因為很多要很內行看到前茂的市長不多所以政治上才有工法嘛那我也在這裡期待就是說,我前面要跟你講啦"},{"start":2780.197,"end":2784.179,"text":"我們把總預算弄完但是我再建議在進行以前可能我們要先談一個事情因為總預算在整個廢棋這樣審完"},{"start":2802.862,"end":2825.235,"text":"總預算是兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行要談多少?兩兆八千八百億那行"},{"start":2827.705,"end":2829.026,"text":"希望這一屆畫上一個圓滿的記號好不好"},{"start":2855.919,"end":2883.156,"text":"好 陳教委好 院長 那個實地黨團在問 因為昨天這個是執政黨的這個發言 發文不當嘛所以我們延宕了昨天的協商 那今天我們協商這個通案完畢 要不要再繼續進行內政的這個預算提案的協商要說時間啦 我們早上晚上十幾點就好了 好不好"},{"start":2884.212,"end":2909.612,"text":"好 那就是聽聽大家要不要繼續在審那個內政 不然我們每次到這個時候就是一直加班一直加班嘛那不管誰 每一年都這樣好 這就是我的發言 因為你看大家都站在那裡因為期盼他們預算能夠有一個有一個走路吧所以今天我們先談一下就從 我們明天早上來談三點數多少 這個很重要"},{"start":2910.97,"end":2916.274,"text":"這幾天在協商希望民進黨黨不要再吐槽了你如果不在就再吐槽了那第二個晚上"},{"start":2939.569,"end":2963.762,"text":"10點吧 不要到12點10點就很晚了今天嗎今天最晚10點那我告訴你喔 保安有去交通的那些喔阿你們就錄在社會嘛 心情還沒打開那現在應該心情打開 趕快趕快撤 趕快撤 趕快送出來嘛他們一直很努力在溝通 今天下午也去溝通 每天都在溝通 好不好"},{"start":2964.502,"end":2987.026,"text":"因為我們要讓部會他們那個好暗想好暗想 因為有 本來是有兩個 一個就說看要多嚴幾點 一個就說二三個通案先解決 現在才比較早來 那就把它講清楚今天晚上到十點 那明天幾點開始 明天早上九點喔 過去都這樣啊九點到幾點 你講清楚 因為現在選舉到了"},{"start":2990.543,"end":3015.415,"text":"國際我們都是在這裡吃便當 有時候在熱身 火車委員會大概都要來嘛因為現在剩下四天而已啊對 那講完嘛 明天幾點 九點到幾點九點到十二點 十二點以後 換休息半個鐘頭 一個鐘頭 然後就一直接下去嘛雖然時間就下來 我們國際都吃完飯馬上來 有時候發便當嘛這現場採取的事情就可以了 看速度啦好好 後面啦 要過來"},{"start":3017.745,"end":3019.646,"text":"要九點還要十點啦?要九點還要十點啦?要九點還要十點啦?"},{"start":3047.073,"end":3047.273,"text":"主席"},{"start":3060.865,"end":3082.405,"text":"待會晚上10點 待會吃飯的時候休息 休息時間待會再來講但是呢 各部會很認真去溝通有約修改變成組結議 那些部分你們趕快聲明送上來我們再近啦 我們要想了想了好啦好啦 那我遞出來看看啦"},{"start":3084.802,"end":3085.722,"text":"行政院秘書長李孟彥先生"},{"start":3116.051,"end":3141.469,"text":"行政院主席總署主席長 朱哲銘先生財政部的 莊翠雲女士市會發展部的 唐鳳部長國防部的 邱國正部長暫時介紹到這裡介紹得到嗎我們請大家看第一案看通案的第一案"},{"start":3143.237,"end":3151.409,"text":"通案的第一案是要增列三千億啦這個是台灣民眾黨黨團是不是說明一下老了好不好 能夠說明好啦"},{"start":3153.144,"end":3177.677,"text":"說明一下好了啦好不好這個昨天有講過了啦財政部在11月公布今年10月稅收3兆223億的時候其實這幾年歷年來的稅收超增的部分大概都有平均1700億到1800億那其實財政部長他當時也表示今年會再增列"},{"start":3178.895,"end":3206,"text":"把這個113年度的稅收來去做一個相關的增列那財委會其實已經增列確定150億了150億了而且也要成立這個稅收估測專案小組所以明年的稅收跟時增數的這個預算數應該不會相差太遠那當時我們提這個案子後來來溝通是有同意說可以增列100億那當時現場的官員沒有異議但是後來好像回去之後有不同的意見"},{"start":3207.08,"end":3235.209,"text":"那我們在昨天財政部國會聯絡委員來本黨團溝通的時候表示這個一百億的甄列他們欠然同意所以希望說說策案或是保留那我們是覺得說這樣溝通的一個品質其實影響我們的互信原則所以我們還是希望就是說是不是可以甄列一百億那財政部要不要簡單說明一下如果沒有共識的話我們就保留好不好那其實這個最主要我們還是希望就是說"},{"start":3239.01,"end":3259.858,"text":"稅收超徵的部分 其實已經多年來這個數字其實基本當然3000億這個數字可以討論但是平均都1000多億 1700億這個是已經確定的數字但是應該優先用來還債 不應該都是還是透過發現金或是某種可能對外界來講是政策性的買票"},{"start":3261.059,"end":3286.341,"text":"優先還債的部分 包含勞保還有這些所謂的勞保的虧損的部分那台電的問題這個是另外的問題不應該都是把納稅人的錢去補這些台電的財務黑洞所以我們認為還是優先還債那你後面的這個償還計畫還有以勞保為主的這個部分應該要把它納入後續的不管是主決議或是你們整個預算提案的方向重點"},{"start":3287.222,"end":3287.583,"text":"請莊副長說明一下"},{"start":3295.676,"end":3306.925,"text":"主席以及各位委員大家好我想這一個提案也是督促我們第一個就是在預算籌編的時候對稅客收入能夠更為精準然後讓跟時增數會接近我想這個部分在113年估測我們的稅客收入的時候財政部已經成立了估測專案小組除了部本部以外還邀請相關機關以及專家學者來組成一個小組然後對每個稅務影響的因子都納進去考量一個稅務一個稅務的檢討"},{"start":3325.26,"end":3351.368,"text":"所以在113年的時候我們在籌編這個稅客收入的時候已經做了這樣的一個一個一個調整跟改進那這一今年呢願編的是兩兆兩千九百九十億比112年已經增加了一千零四十一億事實上就是有調增加我們的一個籌編的數然後在財委會的時候也增加了一百五十億所以在這個部分呢我們是建議是不是就是按照財委會當時決議按照我們原來送出的預算案的數"},{"start":3353.83,"end":3354.353,"text":"增加150億來做一個調整那另外"},{"start":3359.574,"end":3387.033,"text":"另外對於剛剛﹖不好意思﹖對於委員剛剛提到的就是這一百億的部分我們的同仁去溝通的時候也許表達的不夠明確跟完整所以有點誤會那我想這個部分也跟這邊邱委員這邊跟您說所以你們同意在針對一百億沒有沒有沒有說我們的同仁去可能您這邊有提到說一百億的時候我們的同仁可能在表達上沒有很完整講一下好不好還是說回來研議這樣子好"},{"start":3389.642,"end":3408.373,"text":"要保留嗎?好不好?不是啦 我是想建議就是說如果100億也不能 但是這幾年看起來都超徵超過千喔千億 所以到底你們的監測小組你有什麼信心覺得你今年你孤一一三年你是很精準我是覺得你的信用前兩年都破產了"},{"start":3409.437,"end":3434.712,"text":"所以在這裡才說你時增數如果往上調你還可以到時候不會在國會被大家指責說你的這個估算有誤所以第一個我是覺得這是第一問題第二就是說超增之後的用途到底是往補貼這個勞保的部分還是之前補貼台電的部分其實財政部都沒有自己的主張啊所以你現在到底是要用什麼方式來做最後超增之後的處理也是一個問題"},{"start":3436.221,"end":3452.163,"text":"市長我講一下好不好這幾個案子差不多類似的啦這個第三案第四案第五案第六案差不多類似的案子並在一起談啦"},{"start":3453.632,"end":3480.607,"text":"沒有啦,兩個都說一樣,這不是說電信包結就好了,我們有關的關係知道,大家想想看一下,可以不可以,還有一個案件我剛講前兩年估那麼不準,那現在你認為他的估測小組,你覺得他有什麼讓你有信心?我是想請教柯總長,你有什麼信心說他真的明年估得很準嗎?這才是關鍵你有一個人說保證百分之百準"},{"start":3481.627,"end":3496.718,"text":"他已經有一個小組了嘛所以說 估測專業小組嘛 他們會很專業去處理嘛而且明年已經增加一千三百億了 好不好這整個行喔 整個條件要整齊啦估測的部分 剛剛賴委員提問的部分"},{"start":3503.627,"end":3509.889,"text":"是 您剛剛當然賴委員有提到就是估測是不是已經精準但是我必須要跟委員報告我們已經在改進我們的估測方式在113年的時候跟往年都不一樣所以我們的目的就是每個稅目但是您說也能夠準到什麼程度其實因為估測到到時針完成有兩年的一個時間這兩年時間也會有一些變動的因素在裡面但是我們一定是盡力去做到估測能夠精準我想這個在113年已經呈現在我們的改進的方式上"},{"start":3533.154,"end":3539.536,"text":"委員提到如果有超出預算數的部分 這個錢是怎麼用 第一個我們是減少舉債比如說112年來說 原先在總預算裡面要舉借的1732億我們都沒有舉借 然後拿去還債 1110億在6月的時候就還掉了"},{"start":3554.139,"end":3582.591,"text":"（減少債息的付出（同時我們在11月又增加還債150億（所以我們第一個是減少舉借（第二個是我們增加還債（另外如果我們在整個到結束以後（也會累計到稅季剩餘（到稅季剩餘的時候（就作為以後年度的融資裁員（那另外對於勞保的撥補的部分（在稅出預算的部分（我記得在113年也有在做這個部分（那是稅出的編列部分（那在稅路的部分我們如果有"},{"start":3583.191,"end":3583.351,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3608.271,"end":3636.772,"text":"照你們現在的邏輯或法制性去保證可以撥補到勞保吧 對不對我想釐清這個那其他的部分就是在其他未來稅出未出的部分不是 他剛剛講的債是他的法定上面的一個方式對 他是納入稅計剩餘再撥補稅出的一種 對不對不是直接債的部分嘛OK 好了解好 那本案就保留"},{"start":3638.262,"end":3665.154,"text":"第一案保留請看第二案檢列半數第二案我來補充說明一下這一次的公務預算跟基金預算邊有關政策行銷費用超過21億那其實我長期追蹤這些政策行銷費用的去路幾乎啊"},{"start":3666.754,"end":3689.191,"text":"這民進黨很厲害啊用政府的錢洗人的腦多花包給我就不講嘛 三立啦民事嘛那每一年都統三百分之二十統三晚隔年又加了超過百分之二十又送來這典型的藐視立法院所以以前通常都三百分之二十"},{"start":3691.038,"end":3691.338,"text":"主委長講一下"},{"start":3716.74,"end":3744.445,"text":"主席主席長來這個案子我建議說我們在通商比例的時候再來討論有沒有通商比例在討論通商比例的時候不行啊 我要先確定啊你講這個沒有一定比例我們不要往下走啊不行啊這樣就威脅這樣根本不是威脅啊因為每一年都這樣子吧來 我們講理事長看要刪多少啦"},{"start":3746.065,"end":3748.927,"text":"實力也支持就是說我們的預算真的是要不要用在這個政黨的"},{"start":3770.922,"end":3771.302,"text":"政黨大內宣（"},{"start":3790.63,"end":3791.01,"text":"政黨大內宣"},{"start":3815.879,"end":3818.963,"text":"你不是整天講要記住正義嗎"},{"start":3821.82,"end":3848.63,"text":"不是啊,你用政府部門的預算來做這個大內宣,這樣怎麼會恰當?為什麼大內宣呢?其實政府本來就是要宣導自己的政策,這合理的範圍內而且一上來也寫得很清楚嘛,我們就照法令來處理吧這一提醒,我想因為回復到韓七年一樣,通常在處理,我先保留一下好不好"},{"start":3851.616,"end":3863.684,"text":"昨年是那個是三二十趴可是那個集管署還有那個防檢局的預算是排除集管署因為有疾病的防治防檢局有那個檢疫的那兩個排除"},{"start":3872.87,"end":3873.671,"text":"中央銀行的鈔票使用都不會牽連到"},{"start":3888.447,"end":3889.708,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":3906.292,"end":3910.034,"text":"這些部位裡面哪個部位最誇張你知道嗎農業部啊 到現在109年"},{"start":3933.763,"end":3936.526,"text":"他用了3500萬去買媒體亂用 到現在 審計部還沒給他轉銷欸亂花錢啊"},{"start":3946.547,"end":3954.895,"text":"阿都,沒關係,那個是另外一個題目,我也不是很清楚你現在講的是對又錯啦這樣啦,我鼓勵,去年有一個大家經過很長的時間協調出來的那種結果先把拿出來我們再談,當指引吧,我們來看待好不好"},{"start":3968.979,"end":3996.886,"text":"院長我問一下那個主計長我剛剛說明的就是各部會他們的預算用在不同跟他們業務不相關的這個陣營宣傳或者是這樣可以嗎就是說環境部去宣傳軍工叫調薪環境部用政府宣傳政府挺勞工然後環境部宣傳投資大爆發"},{"start":4001.374,"end":4006.321,"text":"勞動部宣傳前瞻建設 水環境勞動部宣傳能源轉型"},{"start":4007.979,"end":4011.662,"text":"主席長這樣可以嗎這個我想比較符合他本來部的業務但是我剛剛講的這個都不符合真的是真的要講的啊"},{"start":4038.91,"end":4048.6,"text":"是不是這個我們就等到通商決定以後再來決定這一個案就是通商討論完回來見軍隊這個暫時保留"},{"start":4055.888,"end":4066.711,"text":"剛才也講過了這個東西是什麼?臉書上面的圖卡?這樣就行政不中立,如果是臉書難道宣傳不用錢嗎?那這樣行政不中立,環境部去宣傳別的"},{"start":4077.318,"end":4098.484,"text":"政府的那個變成大內宣那這樣適合嗎這行政院的政策轉傳臉書上面和所謂預算一點都沒有關係所以大家講話要講真實的要拿來這樣講話比較實際保留啦好不好我不要保留我不要保留要保留每次都保留啊你呢我不要通案回來我不要"},{"start":4099.384,"end":4107.689,"text":"委員長我不要,要保留就通通保留啊我不要,我就是不要沒有啦,不然這樣啦為什麼要照你的啊不是我照,我先講一個道理出來齁"},{"start":4118.456,"end":4120.037,"text":"那個報告院長據我知道那些有些部會"},{"start":4141.852,"end":4170.045,"text":"他是公益的廣告是根本沒有發到預算錢有些有些啦主計寫個報告好了啦我們這個資料再提供給主計那個臉書的東西也沒有錢你做圖也要人力啦你做的圖卡也要人力啊你PO也要人力啊什麼叫做PO臉書各部位的圖卡都轉傳嘛那怎麼回事反其他部會的圖卡"},{"start":4171.305,"end":4172.806,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":4193.941,"end":4197.623,"text":"政府的人力 各部份的人力去轉證變成大內宣這樣的方式也不懂啊一千萬一雙在台"},{"start":4219.107,"end":4223.009,"text":"去年20%太低啦!前一年30%啦!去年20%嘛!對!111年30%啦!那時他有1000萬以上才刪嘛!可以啊!"},{"start":4246.172,"end":4259.979,"text":"主席長,他的肯定才外界有部分嘛柯董造,這錢誰用你講的嘛誰用還不知道啦,你不要這麼堅持啦"},{"start":4261.667,"end":4271.053,"text":"現在我就是要提這一點在30天就要投票在投票之前 邏輯上 理論上不知道誰會當選因為這三個黨都有候選人所以說應該是"},{"start":4291.767,"end":4318.585,"text":"有些各部會是編的很節省因為全部的公務機關大概都十億左右十億啦至少從十二億一直降下來嘛政府 整體現場都走幾億了還有基金 合基金也十億這樣啦一千萬以上 今年二十趴啦 不要說三十趴啦增加百分之十就二十二趴嘛"},{"start":4319.994,"end":4320.394,"text":"我為人民把關阿"},{"start":4345.171,"end":4350.933,"text":"因為那個是用在購部會的政策﹖沒有用在政黨上啦現在在亂講話 你要看出來 農委會都花包了三粒零四啦那是後續的 後續的東西"},{"start":4369.121,"end":4369.761,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4392.931,"end":4394.052,"text":"要求防檢局跟集管署不能"},{"start":4409.502,"end":4409.582,"text":"主席"},{"start":4430.976,"end":4430.996,"text":"剪類20%"},{"start":4453.148,"end":4453.889,"text":"黃簡吉跟什麼?"},{"start":4475.772,"end":4476.293,"text":"其實過去執政黨底下"},{"start":4505.326,"end":4532.813,"text":"這個錯誤的政策比貪圖還可怕我講的是什麼數位輸入認證數位輸入認證沒有做阿沒有做阿你不記錄狀況但是還沒有做現在已經已經要賠多少錢你知道賠十億已經要賠十億啦就是因為立法院還沒有通過預算他就發包啦現在財務損失十億今年又變到六千多萬"},{"start":4536.274,"end":4543.677,"text":"董事長你問一下內政部數位發生認證就是立法院沒通過你等計畫通過再來吧好不好"},{"start":4561.476,"end":4564.117,"text":"行政部門關鍵民生系統經濟淫貪備份及回覆計畫"},{"start":4587.338,"end":4599.024,"text":"那句話已經說 當然有句話 不然怎麼編預算那你為什麼一次要編到113到116啊請部長說明嘛部長我先說一下 部長不是 院長 院長院長我要去臨庭 那如果有實例的提案 我們先保留好嗎 有有有"},{"start":4617.666,"end":4619.367,"text":"臨時提案臨時提案臨時提案臨時提案"},{"start":4648.37,"end":4648.79,"text":"委員會結束"},{"start":4677.135,"end":4696.912,"text":"這是第一次數位部用公共建設的程序公共建設大家了解四年的計畫常常第一年他是去做這種可行性的研擬去做作業程序的訂定我看這個提案主要在講的是說比較擔心說520之前好像什麼資料備份到海外"},{"start":4698.012,"end":4718.139,"text":"國發會已合併分年計劃,明年一整年是用來規劃這件事情,訂定這個程序,但並不是執行所謂的資料備份到海外。所以,我想是不是有可能把這個改成主決議,昨天有書面提供給國民黨團,就是把這邊倒數第六行都號右邊開始。"},{"start":4719.059,"end":4739.121,"text":"改成說請數位發展部向立法院交通委員會提出強烈各計劃名稱﹑各年度期程﹑基金費等細項說明之書面報告因為我們本來明年一整年就是在做規劃並沒有要跨境傳輸以上問一下你這個是先期計劃核定整體的計劃核定了嗎"},{"start":4740.388,"end":4751.493,"text":"因為我們先期的計劃是由國發會合定明年的預算我們在討論是明年的預算那整體計劃行政院合定了沒有整體計劃目前還在行政院審議中"},{"start":4757.835,"end":4779.523,"text":"萬一現在審議不夠你是不是要重蹈數位說明證的這個覆測那沒有關係阿有喔這有關於議題備言的問題吧整理計畫還沒有合併 等現在合併再說吧那目前不會有這種情形 明年度沒有這種情形未來會不會有 還要等下實現那個"},{"start":4780.623,"end":4789.834,"text":"老柯 因為這涉及到13億啦涉及到13億 整體計畫還沒核定搞不好新任政委哥不想核定那你要編"},{"start":4792.281,"end":4793.342,"text":"這先跳過去"},{"start":4811.977,"end":4813.817,"text":"請看第四案主決議沒有意見就通過"},{"start":4838.707,"end":4861.621,"text":"這麼重要的當然要跟財委會做一個專案報告 這個不要改書面啦你現在 漢政府執政期間稅收估測 嚴重失準這不可能奧改的事情啦這這麼重要的 有些可以放啦 小事情可以放啦這麼重要的事情 真的是要做專案報告我們今天處理的時候 院長"},{"start":4864.724,"end":4889.592,"text":"我們在處理有些原則性我先定下來才不會每一次都要來講我們過去處理總預算的時候都因為原則性一個月改三個月那專案報告改順便報告因為這麼多的總共兩千多萬像我們這七年處理的順便報告只有三千多個順便報告所以這個量體很大"},{"start":4891.192,"end":4918.231,"text":"這個都是下一屆的事情尤其書面報告讓大家都可以永遠都看得到可是專案報告有直播紀錄啊而且重點案件像現在打詐的現在速發布的這些因為這是最後一期的預算啊接下來明年就有新的委員所以我們希望就是說"},{"start":4919.091,"end":4940.009,"text":"還是照我們以前的慣例 專案報告改成書面報告我就宣布一下啦 就是說照過去 我來三年多了嘛慣例都是 如果說一個月兩個月都改為三個月啦那專案報告都改為書面報告那如果有特別有意見 到時候提出來就這樣可是這個就是特別有意見"},{"start":4941.934,"end":4964.119,"text":"沒關係啦 我跟你講啦齁 大家都不同沒關係 你是紐約委員 已經最信任了所謂專案報告只要招委一排的話 不必他們同意這是議法委員主動發動權嘛所以我們 你現在這樣要求說 你要來專案報告 這是我們的權益你要要求你先來給我書面報告 看不好我給你專案報告 該叫來"},{"start":4964.899,"end":4967.022,"text":"因為重要的才要改為專案報告 其他不重要的都改成書條"},{"start":4987.642,"end":4988.183,"text":"我宣布一下"},{"start":5003.233,"end":5003.833,"text":"實在力量黨團．國民黨黨團都已經"},{"start":5025.433,"end":5050.111,"text":"將那個部會溝通結果 送到內政委員會那其他的黨團 也請趕快送到內政委員會以例 做通案結束後 內政委員會部分 就可以後續協商這樣 就拜託晚上我們六點休息到六點半七點"},{"start":5056.374,"end":5085.486,"text":"6點"},{"start":5088.271,"end":5093.234,"text":"6點到7點6點到7點7點開會開到10點明天再去幾點?九點半好不好?九點半好不好?沒有沒有我還有回我還知道還有回"},{"start":5109.747,"end":5110.528,"text":"明天早上九點半"},{"start":5123.905,"end":5124.646,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5148.152,"end":5148.792,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6015.438,"end":6017.72,"text":"主席"},{"start":6034.397,"end":6038.259,"text":"主席總助可不可以刪掉我比較自私一點"},{"start":6066.104,"end":6068.465,"text":"修正後提供"},{"start":6096.53,"end":6098.032,"text":"行政院也刪掉那是誰邀集阿"},{"start":6112.152,"end":6138.932,"text":"我建議一下這邊是不是原提案要求財政部也就是行政院召集主計總署這一段文字是不是就就蓋成要求財政部來召集相關單位召開會議檢討那大概就是成立了有財政部來邀集那另外就是最後一行的專案報告是不是修正為稅收估測精進書面報告"},{"start":6141.958,"end":6164.166,"text":"部長您這個相關單位其他相關單位是哪些單位其他相關單位這個我們第一個會邀請政府機關包含國發會主計總署中央銀行那另外也會邀請相關的專家學者一起來成立一個監討會議跟估測小組所以是包含了有關的我們都會邀請"},{"start":6165.046,"end":6166.507,"text":"我們曾民宗總專還是建議是要專案報告"},{"start":6195.131,"end":6195.652,"text":"這不是書面?這不是書面?"},{"start":6216.308,"end":6217.088,"text":"第四案就這樣,請看第五案"},{"start":6249.306,"end":6249.546,"text":"第五案"},{"start":6274.773,"end":6276.815,"text":"我意思是說這個是國民黨團提出來的意見意見是可行的"},{"start":6303.191,"end":6327.057,"text":"你為什麼要改我們的文字呢那協商啊不啊協商可以啊我不同意啊我們黨的文字是專業的啊你說改書面我也答應你又給我改文字那你現在應該怎樣就照原來文字改書面就好啦不是啦不是啦差不多對於他的改文字裡面你你至少對啦"},{"start":6330.241,"end":6352.576,"text":"欸這個本人在財政部做常識資格做這麼久我怎麼不知道你又改文字好啦尊重委員啦尊重委員啦對啊尊重委員尊重總專的意見所以有關於第五案第五案的主席主要修改兩個字就是專案改為書面報告這個可以嗎可以嗎齁"},{"start":6356.442,"end":6359.004,"text":"行政單位一定要去執行,不執行就是堵職"},{"start":6383.116,"end":6392.944,"text":"好 謝謝委員那第七案就修正通過好 第八案請國防部說明請委員會啦 並經委員會就好了"},{"start":6396.32,"end":6417.707,"text":"我跟各位報告一下,這個建議就是委員會有決議,就並委員會的決議來做裁定以後第一預備軍的動用,已經設定兩個條件第一個假如說已經建案的,要持續不足的,那我們要經過行政院的同意,而且會跟立法院做核備"},{"start":6420.227,"end":6435.812,"text":"如果沒有建案,我們要用的話,一定要跟立法院外交管委員會做專案的報告而且完成的建案程序再做專案報告報告經過外交管委會同意以後,然後使得動之"},{"start":6437.212,"end":6449.839,"text":"這個在10月25號已經跟委員會裡面做的說明了,建議就按照委員會決議的來辦理這樣的話就完全合法,符合預算法的規定那跟這個組結有什麼衝突呢?"},{"start":6451.51,"end":6453.251,"text":"部長 您的建議我尊重你就把我們的組決議改成"},{"start":6480.188,"end":6494.236,"text":"委員會的類似的文句吧,這樣就可以了,好不好就改成跟委員會決議類似的文句就好了,好不好,一樣達成你的原來的目的嘛,謝謝"},{"start":6502.112,"end":6503.372,"text":"就修正通過"},{"start":6532.318,"end":6534.759,"text":"第九案文字稍微修正一下"},{"start":6546.038,"end":6570.763,"text":"倒數第二行那個以濟暴方式那五個字可能刪除一下因為我們的這個計畫它完成的時間是不定期的所以什麼時候完成我們就什麼時候上網公告那你要把它寫清楚喔你要說什麼時候完成這個把它改文字敘述出來喔那我們就講說以濟暴方式那個文字刪掉那你要一個時間嘛要一個時間你說它已經完成就上網了啦沒有把它寫進來喔"},{"start":6571.724,"end":6571.744,"text":"好"},{"start":6586.522,"end":6586.902,"text":"對不起吧"},{"start":6616.548,"end":6628.243,"text":"對所以行政院定制所以我知道行政院自己有沒有一個時間因為4月要成立那個研議小組所以希望不要拖到明年什麼五一再公告這是不太對的一個立法的這個目的"},{"start":6629.742,"end":6656.637,"text":"我們會在總統府公告這個法案以後競訴有沒有可能在年底主席你不要幫他講那麼多因為就是現在勞工在傳就是說我們立院很快的通過了可是到底實施日期是什麼所以我希望行政院競訴也確定看看好不好讓大家不要覺得我們立法上面"},{"start":6656.937,"end":6658.778,"text":"第9案文字修正通過第10案照案通過"},{"start":6682.076,"end":6695.482,"text":"請看11案11案有一個修正建議請大家參考11案請大家看這張有沒有 如果沒有的話請說一下我們會按照預算法的規定馬上辦理"},{"start":6698.709,"end":6701.991,"text":"11案修正通過12案遵照辦理13案遵照辦理14案"},{"start":6721.56,"end":6746.334,"text":"環境部這邊報告已經跟賴委員那邊討論過了那賴委員也同意然後這個國民黨黨團也蓋章了好OK那就修正通過對不對14案修正通過好請看第15案人道辦理好章案通過第15案章案通過16案子捷役人事處人事處人總車案車案"},{"start":6751.953,"end":6756.638,"text":"16案測案17案照案通過18案主決議"},{"start":6773.572,"end":6779.5,"text":"是不是可以建議由專題報告改為書面報告是不是好18案主決議專題報告改為書面報告修正通過"},{"start":6787.579,"end":6806.752,"text":"請看19案19案已經發給在國會委員黨那我們是說2個月內就相關籌資計畫提出書面報告19案主席沒有意見就修正通告請看20案"},{"start":6816.136,"end":6828.34,"text":"來順便報告啦這個很多做一些行政不中立的事請主委講一下吧好,有沒有意見有,有意見"},{"start":6846.312,"end":6848.553,"text":"市長有修正文字修正文字修正通過"},{"start":6872.524,"end":6885.849,"text":"主委請說明一下跟各位委員報告這個是我們嚴密會補助民間的一個文化健康站它是計劃型的補助"},{"start":6903.036,"end":6928.322,"text":"跟那個業聘人員是不一樣的這是社團的補助案沒有問你到底是不是補助案阿應該說不管是不是補助案就是這個健康站你們補助那他的這個造福員是不是有穿相關候選人的競選背心阿這個才是重點阿"},{"start":6929.751,"end":6957.865,"text":"你要是有穿那即使你是補助也是不行啊那假如他沒有穿就沒有問題但是他是有穿被抓到了的話那當然你們就得檢討啊即使你們是補助民間的那樣也不行啊上班時間是沒有穿啦上班時間沒有穿啦所以這個重點是您的意思是說所謂上班時間因為他這裡面"},{"start":6959.406,"end":6961.908,"text":"吳立法委員在臉書上曾經說沒有這回事情"},{"start":6977.866,"end":6980.448,"text":"文化健康站造福源"},{"start":7004.954,"end":7017.242,"text":"應該說吳亦華委員會有他的想法但是當事人會有他的說法所以才要原民會來說明不是嗎還是要修正通過因為我們也常常接到"},{"start":7026.67,"end":7049.491,"text":"我們同等反應 原民會都利用各種活動在助選網站上或是電視上或是有一些照片 真的很明顯所以我們這個案子也是督促原民會 做 可以做 不要太誇張那是不是你們文字修正是不是你收掉這個都沒有那個了"},{"start":7053.393,"end":7074.238,"text":"一年一手行政中立就對了啊後面那個有不同意見的人看法,有時候有這種事情反正重新修正一下要行政中立就建議文字修正你文字是不是再重寫一下修正文字再重寫一下,等一下先保留怎麼重寫完"},{"start":7078.444,"end":7081.805,"text":"主協議文字你們再寫一下再拿過來大家再看現在就暫時保留就看文字以後再講請看22案"},{"start":7104.462,"end":7104.924,"text":"請看21案21案"},{"start":7110.872,"end":7138.469,"text":"21案有跟陳佳華委員溝通原則上修改一小段文字後面陳佳華委員堅持的那一段我們就保留就留著這樣子前面一段拿掉後面那段留著就是避免政府機關這個部分還是不用刪掉嘛對 前面歌功頌德宣揚政績那個刪掉這樣子好 那個我們可以贊成但是後面避免政府"},{"start":7139.189,"end":7139.729,"text":"保留保留我意見"},{"start":7157.879,"end":7160.961,"text":"我們是希望避免讓民眾誤會﹑或者是認為執政單位﹑執政黨"},{"start":7187.674,"end":7188.074,"text":"那現在修正通過"},{"start":7215.979,"end":7243.597,"text":"就是復原律師長對不對就是我想我們在各個部會的臉書不會出現政黨的名字不會幫政黨宣傳但是部會的臉書去幫行政院的政績宣傳應該是可以那這個文字沒有什麼錯阿不會有特定政黨的問題所以這個文字沒什麼錯嘛這文字保留這個文字保留"},{"start":7245.495,"end":7246.155,"text":"好,那這樣"},{"start":7271.38,"end":7283.226,"text":"二十一案就文字修正通過二十一案的主決議請看二十二案二十二案就是只有改一個字改一個字應改成以啦我不贊成阿為什麼你知道我後來當了總召"},{"start":7301.482,"end":7327.524,"text":"你現在就當總召 怎麼後來要當總召我做八年立委沒有每一年都做我做了三年總召每一次到司法法制去一下子法務部有一件一下司法院有一件朝委協商完 司法院有一件法務部有一件浪費國家的資源兩個會選 一個法務部 一個行政院送來法案 長長"},{"start":7329.773,"end":7337.762,"text":"法務部跟司法院沒有意見 常常還麻煩你這個大總召來協商沒有關係啦 可一點沒有關係不用不用不用"},{"start":7341.543,"end":7361.222,"text":"因為坦白講,很多法案,司法院、法務部本來就有不同立場,包括我們提議的最近刑法185之3,所以就很有經驗法務部的堅持後來跟司法院協商溝通以後,還是用司法院的文職,所以南北會有這種情形"},{"start":7362.557,"end":7380.205,"text":"等一下喔 司法院有沒有意見那個司法院沒來 那個我們必須因為我們行政單位行政單位沒有辦法一定要聽行政院的啦因為五院是平行的 我們沒辦法 我們盡量溝通啦我們盡量溝通啦我的想法是假設少數案子是這樣子嘛幾乎每個案子這樣子"},{"start":7391.792,"end":7417.668,"text":"沒有啦,很久了你都沒來執行,你四個月都不來阿你沒來執行,都不知道阿每一個月都是我在最後整理的阿我四個月是三年,我怎麼不去執行呢我都還不去執行,就知道你們在搞什麼阿我都學長了嘛,不知道報告形式補償也是一樣嘛,國家資金也是一樣嘛"},{"start":7418.729,"end":7421.892,"text":"23案農業部有做文字修正,那是不是可以說明?"},{"start":7447.103,"end":7470.814,"text":"因為整個組決議裡面 最主要是針對蛋液要納入農產品的標示根據我們的食品安全衛生管理法的第三條因為蛋液它已經是加工的產品它是一個包裝的食品它沒有辦法納入到我們的農產品的一個溯源的標示體系所以我們建議文字修正是第四行"},{"start":7473.035,"end":7499.856,"text":"地上寫突顯政府在蛋液後面納入農產品溯源標誌系統上把它劃掉然後加一個蛋液的管理為爭完善然後另外倒數第六行開始因於六個月競速強制將蛋液納入農產品標誌系統要求養雞場主動申報不良蛋同時這幾個字劃掉以上"},{"start":7502.202,"end":7502.882,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7525.796,"end":7541.788,"text":"可以嗎我要提醒喔是代理部長就是你先代理一段時間啦是代理期間啦用錢不要像你們陳吉仲偉大的部長亂用錢那個審計部還沒有還沒轉銷對不對他多少錢還沒轉銷3600萬對從109年到現在全用喔亂用錢"},{"start":7556.243,"end":7562.926,"text":"主席長在這裏啊 很多的主席主任 主席 主席出任 不敢做捏 緊揍捏誰啊 你要講柯文哲啊 又讓過來了"},{"start":7584.11,"end":7601.094,"text":"這個23案部長因為其實你劃掉的部分其實講直白重點就是六個月內但你現在把它劃掉了你基本上就是說應該要要求單一業者應該標示但是我們寫這個組決議就是希望你有個時間的規範"},{"start":7603.513,"end":7622.911,"text":"你把六個月畫掉了我跟委員說明因為蛋液是一個包裝食品它不是在農產品的範疇所以也沒辦法放到農產品的溯源標示體系我也跟委員報告所有的雞蛋在蛋廠出來了以後都有溯源碼"},{"start":7623.792,"end":7623.852,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7642.791,"end":7644.132,"text":"《中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":7664.039,"end":7664.299,"text":"主席"},{"start":7679.831,"end":7693.389,"text":"是完全沒辦法執行的那這個部分因為在洗選場的時候他會經過洗選的過程中就會把不良蛋就會挑掉了所以這個部分對於我們消費者的安全是一定是不會有疑慮的"},{"start":7695.831,"end":7699.173,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算部分８立法院黨團協商：完整會議"},{"start":7722.625,"end":7724.666,"text":"文字已經修正好了 大家沒有意見的話 我們也是修正通過好不好"},{"start":7750.662,"end":7751.744,"text":"是不是奧斯案"},{"start":7767.219,"end":7784.291,"text":"二十案剛才有暫時保留 文字修正現在修正這樣可以嗎?可以啦可以可以齁?好 二十案的文字修正通過等一下等一下等一下不要啦 那有立法 那就不一樣不一樣的價格 那為了好啦因為出賣便宜不行"},{"start":7792.756,"end":7794.276,"text":"平東縣政府那一部分"},{"start":7824.132,"end":7830.547,"text":"行動證書給他們拿掉就好了我們來畫啦我們來畫好 OK"},{"start":7832.352,"end":7861.469,"text":"好 屏東縣政府那個這個花吊 四個字嘛好對不對 四個字好 該會再拿來看好不好二十案就是他改好以後我們再來看好 來 現在這個通案二十三案遲到二十案等一下還要看文字以外其他的我們都已經有處理好 有處理"},{"start":7866.559,"end":7867.259,"text":"保留也是用處理"},{"start":7873.285,"end":7877.766,"text":"20案修正通過現在通案23號已經處理告一段落,那就要休息"},{"start":7896.963,"end":7917.31,"text":"阿休息我跟他報告一下因為內政委員會我們接下來就內政委員會內政委員會因為我們到五點多的有的黨團才給他阿所以說他們給他們準備一下反正要到七點才會付所以我們等於要休息到七點他們現在在觀光啦你要給同仁或者刑事機關齁這個準備的時間阿那我們要不要切說"},{"start":7924.298,"end":7936.626,"text":"最晚10點 但是假設提早結束就提早結束了到哪個部院長那個21案有再修正文字確認一下好嗎提早結束就快了最晚"},{"start":7940.509,"end":7961.865,"text":"10點 假設內政結束也切掉21案的再確認文字宣布一下21案的文字再修正有再修正有再唸一下嗎"},{"start":7980.667,"end":7980.687,"text":"19點準時開會"},{"start":12733.885,"end":12741.689,"text":"現在繼續開會我先有件事情跟大家報告徵求大家的意見"},{"start":12743.311,"end":12743.952,"text":"以加速學商進度"},{"start":12766.237,"end":12781.396,"text":"113年度總預算案 針對各機關通案刪減用途別項目﹖是否就依主計總署所擬的這份通商項目辦理至於通商的比例、金額等"},{"start":12782.837,"end":12787.06,"text":"與黨團協商討論再去決定這樣有沒有意見跟主席報告一下這個項目跟往年都一樣"},{"start":12807.424,"end":12808.104,"text":"主委長113總共有14項對不對"},{"start":12837.099,"end":12854.749,"text":"那一二十二項一一十二項一一零十二項對不對曾嘉南兩項是不是有些一般書會分開來一一這是一一二的一一二的不是啦這家的項目是哪一個項目"},{"start":12856.229,"end":12863.276,"text":"都一樣啊都一樣啊都一樣因為那個是怎麼樣十三十四是那個調整項目就是總數十二個項都一樣的"},{"start":12874.121,"end":12899.735,"text":"確定就是先讓他們去蓋我剛才講那個金額跟比例並沒有決定就是我們還要討論我們討論以後就決定這個院長遲早要決定的那現在是在第五而已我們還要談一個總是算多少說明天早上要決定的不可能都不一定數嘛"},{"start":12901.26,"end":12903.22,"text":"通山用土北橡木玉泥"},{"start":12931.087,"end":12941.41,"text":"其實蓋也不一定來得及,看到就講通山通山就知道了不一定回得來這都沒辦法,都修兩年,回兩年再來全部幾項不是要給"},{"start":12957.677,"end":12958.397,"text":"總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?總共幾案?"},{"start":12988.822,"end":12989.602,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13011.134,"end":13031.116,"text":"現在我們就來進行行政院主管行政院主管我們看案號第一案第一案沒有意見我們就通過第一案因為裡面有幾個文字"},{"start":13032.588,"end":13057.443,"text":"他有講到如此怠惰的行政效能那另外就是說這個部分放任屬下機關是不是這兩行字眼把它刪掉那你有把它文字修正寫出來嗎有有在大家的桌上有三大概兩行多的字有啦 十分啦十分啦十二分啦十二三千"},{"start":13061.254,"end":13061.614,"text":"第一案在這裡啦"},{"start":13094.682,"end":13097.605,"text":"麻煩各部會如果有修正的書面就提早發下去"},{"start":13122.025,"end":13150.548,"text":"好 第一案就剛才已經宣布了就修正通過第二案改組決議沒有意見通過第三案改組決議沒有意見通過第四案改組決議沒有意見通過第五案文字修正凍結一千塊沒有意見通過一千元嘛一千元齁第四案是嗎 第五案第五案文字修正凍結一千元沒有意見通過"},{"start":13152.366,"end":13178.807,"text":"第六案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第七案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第八案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第九案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第十案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過第十一案 文字修正 凍結一千年 沒有意見通過"},{"start":13179.881,"end":13186.565,"text":"搜案有建議修改組決議,但是委員可能要討論一下搜案有一個建議的版本請看搜案"},{"start":13212.814,"end":13237.743,"text":"你要改 希望改組決議喔沒有啦 我們這個就是希望能夠動決讓你們可以去這個監督他是不是履行阿因為他到現在為止 對不對他連 因為宗家案這個是一個這麼這個他要以這個10年40億的慈善支出他到現在都沒有去捐嘛"},{"start":13239.401,"end":13244.776,"text":"對啊這也不是A組有答應要處理"},{"start":13246.291,"end":13254.098,"text":"委員會是怎麼處理委員會沒有怎麼處理啊因為現在我們就是希望說在院的這個部分因為NCC會說這可能是教育部去督促的嘛"},{"start":13272.133,"end":13289.758,"text":"但是事實上人家教育部長的說法就是說哪一個這個機關所做的處分就是由那個機關去做監理然後這個陳院長我在質詢他的時候他的見解是這樣可是NCC還是一直在講說是教育部應該要去"},{"start":13290.658,"end":13307.153,"text":"去瞭解然後或者是說去處理這個公益信託到底有沒有捐所以這個就是在互踢皮球的這個狀況所以我們才是希望說院可以去處理這個問題嘛對啊所以才會這樣說行政院徹底檢討這個問題然後到底是說這個各機關公益信託監管的這個狀況"},{"start":13318.049,"end":13319.79,"text":"請法務部為什麼又跟法務部有關"},{"start":13347.12,"end":13371.534,"text":"也跟信託法 公益信託法 主管機關是法務部那也請NCC也提出所以你在加入NCC這樣這個就照行政修正修正嘛對好不好 沒有你這個上面沒有NCC阿你是說"},{"start":13372.722,"end":13376.844,"text":"公務信託法已經在立法院所以應該委員會也在排審階段所以是不是這個部分已經在進行中"},{"start":13401.417,"end":13416.7,"text":"那也要尊重立院職權的行使行政委員,行政委員有改,你要督促法務部或是NC都可以我記得你這一題已經在交通委員會已經講過很多次了"},{"start":13432.386,"end":13436.007,"text":"第12案保留請看第13案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":13450.259,"end":13477.533,"text":"十四案改組決議,沒有意見通過十五案改組決議,沒有意見通過十六案凍結兩萬元這個我們有修正一些文字修正的文字可以講一下嗎,好像有看到是要改組決議嘛,對不對對就照那個行政院改的,可以改成組決議"},{"start":13480.55,"end":13482.171,"text":"十七案改組結議十八案凍結100萬年"},{"start":13508.874,"end":13510.995,"text":"請看19案通山科目19案這個剛剛賴市保委員有簽名就是凍結5%提書面報告通山"},{"start":13536.38,"end":13540.722,"text":"通商用通商19案所謂通商就併通商客戶處理20案檢列800萬元有沒有意見通案的21案"},{"start":13560.809,"end":13583.115,"text":"委員長 這個不能夠說這個各部會的這個社群平台都是這樣處理啊因為他根本跟他的這個業務一點關係都沒有那他在講的是別人的事情欸那怎麼會這樣 一個機關基本上在一個法治國裡面他就是有他的職長的分配嘛 對不對 不然的話幹嘛要設立這些組織法"},{"start":13584.608,"end":13600.106,"text":"那怎麼可能是說你今天農業部的這個粉磚然後都在處理其他的部會的那你自己都沒事做了嗎你剛才沒有來這個已經通過了對阿我是跟他講阿我知道說這個是從來沒有案子已處理過這個資訊本來跟我們可以分享嘛"},{"start":13603.47,"end":13632.031,"text":"政府的資訊 欸 這不可以這樣說阿那你都沒有在聽我講話阿都沒有在聽我講話阿因為是行政院下面有一個部會 因為不是說只有一個行政院下面沒有任何的組織法欸因為你是業務的執掌阿我剛剛有在講 你都沒有在聽阿這都被有這都被有組織法結果你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去 你去"},{"start":13632.771,"end":13634.471,"text":"現在二十案跟二十一案怎麼樣"},{"start":13655.888,"end":13659.549,"text":"20案跟21案,因為前面已經有通過通案,那這個就併通案處理,對不對?修改內容"},{"start":13680.117,"end":13680.157,"text":"20號案動結200萬元"},{"start":13690.555,"end":13694.276,"text":"21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留21號我們想要保留"},{"start":13721.03,"end":13723.411,"text":"這個有改組決議,黨團也蓋章了"},{"start":13745.25,"end":13746.411,"text":"改組協議24案改組協議沒有見通過25案25 26因為"},{"start":13770.963,"end":13777.346,"text":"有希望能夠改組決議,文字修正,但是委員還沒有簽名,沒有同意。"},{"start":13791.591,"end":13812.867,"text":"委員長26這涉及到集會遊行法的這個修法那這個一直到現在為止都行政院都還不能夠提出版本這是非常不應該的因為在2016年蔡總統上任就是說要落實國家對排除人民集會遊行法限制的這個承諾"},{"start":13814.008,"end":13830.8,"text":"那我們可以看到是說現在台灣的這個集會遊行法他還要採取這個事前的許可制然後對這個禁制區等等又有很多的這個要求甚至就是在這個限制及命令解散的制度"},{"start":13831.32,"end":13845.378,"text":"那所以這個是非常非常落後的然後到現在為止行政院也都還不提出一個版本那這個顯然跟我現在在這個科目上面你這個叫做人權及轉型正義"},{"start":13846.98,"end":13872.143,"text":"那這個部分是非常的諷刺啦你如果說你要落實這個人權及轉型正義的話那這種極惡遊行的惡法基本上都是國民黨時代留下來這種威權體制的這個象徵嘛那比較法上面即使隨便看一個國家你就會知道說這個是完全就是不想要讓人民極惡遊行的這個法律所以我們希望就是說"},{"start":13874.745,"end":13888.449,"text":"這個針對這個人權及轉型正義的經費提案凍結兩百萬請問一下我們這一屆並沒有實列遊行法沒有人提過行政也沒有送來另外有沒有版本"},{"start":13891.21,"end":13911.485,"text":"我們有啊 我們有版本啊這個是過去在這個民進黨執政 民進黨從2008年的野草莓的學運的時候時任的黨主席蔡英文總統就在自由廣場簽然後簽了這一個人權永久保固書嘛"},{"start":13912.807,"end":13933.88,"text":"那時候的承諾說未來民進黨無論在朝或在野都會為了這個集會結社自由等這一些法治來努力啊柯總裁你應該非常清楚才對啊你怎麼還會再問這種事情我變得更清楚所有過程都講過所有過程都走過你不要再亂講通了我都還沒講完都亂講我現在回答你的問題你應該在自由檢討說為什麼"},{"start":13942.265,"end":13955.861,"text":"這個集會遊行法你從2016年開始民進黨完全執政到現在都還沒有辦法通過一個院版能夠跟其他的國家法制主義國家可以這個看齊嘛對啊"},{"start":13956.989,"end":13979.046,"text":"委員跟主席報告就是這個案子院也有提出一個修正的文字那是不是可以可以就是說讓我們在3個月內提出書面報告那凍結是不是可以併整個科目的凍結50萬這樣子我們有一個建議的文字那因為這個部分內政部還在研擬的階段好這個"},{"start":13987.421,"end":13988.864,"text":"他就變主決議 他就沒有凍結啦對啊該主決議"},{"start":13999.377,"end":14001.038,"text":"民進黨在野的時候也是認為說這是一個惡法"},{"start":14019.609,"end":14044.967,"text":"那我們2020年就提出了 你現在還在問現在這個 坦白講你沒有提出 你就是要檢討了沒有提出 他們也提出過了那市長 那這一屆都沒有人審過沒有審過是因為 第一個沒有院版嘛他院根本沒有版 他到現在他還在想說他最近要提出一個什麼草案什麼之類的"},{"start":14046.442,"end":14047.223,"text":"27案改組決議沒有見通過28案改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":14073.834,"end":14101.007,"text":"二十九案並通算科目範出辦禮二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十九二十"},{"start":14105.036,"end":14133.028,"text":"那就請看30案30案有一個建議是併案來凍結有簡單的文字修正就只有一行這個想要先保留我們不想併那個好30案那保留好來31案簽字這已經同意了"},{"start":14136.352,"end":14147.519,"text":"同意併案凍結好併哪一個案併整個科目50萬那就31案就併委員會結議辦理對不對對好來併委員會結議辦理然後32案是不是也併委員會結議辦理"},{"start":14158.87,"end":14159.03,"text":"剪列10萬"},{"start":14177.518,"end":14182.701,"text":"10萬,變少了剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬剪列10萬員,沒見通過33案並通案,科目辦理"},{"start":14202.984,"end":14203.104,"text":"來看34案"},{"start":14232.201,"end":14237.129,"text":"主決議 沒意見通過主決議 沒意見通過主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":14245.222,"end":14245.962,"text":"哪一個部分驚悚?"},{"start":14273.086,"end":14300.614,"text":"中央政府政務禁用人員逃射風波不斷 這個驚悚嗎哪一段 比較刺激一點 這個不是事實嗎 逃射風波不斷 最近不在剛發生嗎 哪裡有刺激哪一段驚悚 我看不出來 雖然我們有兩行的修正建議 是不是麻煩你先告訴我們哪一段驚悚 怎麼可以隨便污衊我們洪孟凱委員的提案哪一段驚悚 逃射風波不斷"},{"start":14303.008,"end":14303.929,"text":"希望對張子敬政委"},{"start":14329.741,"end":14330.121,"text":"秘書長結案什麼時候公佈"},{"start":14354.028,"end":14377.337,"text":"修正的保留是不是可以保留好 那就是事實後案就保留我們結案什麼時候要公布這個我們會請已經有給院長看過也確認這個部分我們會對外來做說明什麼時候43案主結議沒見召喚通過14案主結議沒有見召喚通過45案主結議沒有見召喚通過46案"},{"start":14385.219,"end":14401.71,"text":"有沒有意見46案是對於現階段他這個是針對陳院長的在補選的裡面的一些意見那是不是這個能夠保留哪一個不符合事實哪一段不符合事實請說明兩個不是真的你講一下吧"},{"start":14403.479,"end":14429.362,"text":"假視察征服選,哪一段不符合事實?我們有具體舉出來,10月15日出席高雄軟體園區科技大學開工典禮,10月30日國山行程交流道...先講一下,說不定我們可以測哪一段是不正確的講一下11月15日原來安排前往花東視察,卻更改行程前往民進黨花東肇事活動但用行政資源利用上班時間進行拜校服選"},{"start":14430.815,"end":14431.596,"text":"院的建議在哪裡?我們沒有看到"},{"start":14458.597,"end":14465.661,"text":"你們如果說文字修正就要提東西要給我們看如果沒有你就不要講喔齁"},{"start":14486.391,"end":14487.352,"text":"上台支持公安幫民進黨候選人拉票"},{"start":14505.261,"end":14507.242,"text":"陳建仁院長事情我們來慎重處理 來看看吧"},{"start":14535.263,"end":14554.25,"text":"趕快阿他已經講了阿所以他們沒有意見阿默認阿立法院黨不認真阿我們建議這個案子還是保留我們比較慎重的不要不要慎重你先拿來看吧為什麼要保留是哪一段不符合實情立法院黨拿來看啦"},{"start":14556.567,"end":14562.328,"text":"要擺的全部以下都保留喔還是你沒辦法說明 請院長自己來46案啦 46案啦 行政中立的問題阿來一位陳建仁先生阿 你明白喔"},{"start":14590.493,"end":14595.838,"text":"這上面都有寫阿 10月15號出席高雄軟體園區科技大學 具體事證都寫出來喔"},{"start":14597.884,"end":14620.245,"text":"不是 他現在說的是陳建仁 不是立委陳建仁陳建仁院長多次利用公務假視察政府選公然為民進黨籍候選人輔選拉票高雄每一個都說我們立委啊這不譴責 這不錯啦 民進黨 文字拿出來啊不然 院長 政府要拿出來啊政府的資源辦了 典禮勒政府的資源辦了 也不是你民進黨自己辦可以啦是不是 民進黨家 講不出來"},{"start":14624.81,"end":14639.586,"text":"行政院長陳建仁公然在上面拉票他有主持主持可以但不用在上面拉票嘛這是不對的嘛他怎麼拉票啊公然123你看123的跳一下上台支持公然幫民進黨候選人拉票啊"},{"start":14640.146,"end":14643.348,"text":"11月14號花東立委總部現任的總部是民進黨的吧讓民進黨及候選人穿敬賢背心上台對誰提案的來說明一下"},{"start":14670.743,"end":14675.004,"text":"你現在是做行政的秘書長喔?沒有啦,你給秘書長說啦"},{"start":14696.237,"end":14710.343,"text":"完全執政 完全護航就對了民政院長去到任何地方去報紙或剪輯反正都會通知當地立法委員還不通知就比較沒辦法 沒錯阿但是這邊是通知民進黨的候選人喔 不是立法委員喔花東不是民進黨喔"},{"start":14710.703,"end":14727.099,"text":"他這個有時候在公務的行程或是活動的行程有時候立委候選人或是立委本身會上去參加那你也沒辦法去改變他的穿著沒辦法當場叫他把這個穿著來改變不過我們會 我們有一段文字"},{"start":14727.999,"end":14754.561,"text":"會提醒來大家注意就是說政務人員跟民選首長雖非公務人員行政中立法規範對象但是從事與選舉或補選相關行為應該於請假或下班時間並且不動用這個我們這個文字是不是看一下嗎?那給我們看他是立委 現任立委你剛剛不是說現任立委可以嗎?我們說是不實現的嘛大家看一下嘛不管哪個地方那個"},{"start":14755.983,"end":14784.364,"text":"議員也去 反省議會也去地方有關的民意代表會去每個地方都是這樣你們執政縣市也是一樣你把中間改掉這案子就保留改很多啦只是把所有事實都改掉 但是改的內容沒有不好 說真的"},{"start":14785.103,"end":14812.214,"text":"有啊 那個原詞要求行政院長陳建仁結身自愛 謹守行政 這個要保留啦這文字一點都不驚悚阿他已經非常自愛了 結智了 那就再前面加一句他已經非常結身自愛 要求再結身自愛你作文都不通嘛通現在文字喔 要有改來嘛"},{"start":14813.756,"end":14822.819,"text":"這個文字這樣修改可以嗎他就是留後面那句嘛 要求寫生字 前面這段是可以的還不錯要求 要求政務聯局明顯首長這有本意的意味嘛"},{"start":14829.428,"end":14838.776,"text":"如果沒有辦法行政公示就保留啦好不好好保留46案保留47案主決議沒有意見召喚通過48案主決議48案這個因為是針對政府院長那我們是不是建議這個能夠保留"},{"start":14856.274,"end":14885.421,"text":"政務院的事發案 一下 協議 要不要保留好啦 別再弄了啦沒有意見就保留喔那四十九案 主席四十九案裡面有講到各種國家對啦 那裡面有很多我們也覺得不容易修改 所以是不是也建議保留不是 有不是事實嗎 你要怎樣針對我們黨團提案的說哪一些不是事實 我們可以刪掉 比如說"},{"start":14887.783,"end":14911.392,"text":"彈價上漲小市店賣快篩這個不是事實嗎這個有點像中國時報社論不好啊怎麼中國時報社論這個政府全力扶植高端公司一廂通過審查這不是事實嗎報內線交易不是事實嗎小市店賣快篩不是事實嗎一人超市公司取得上億進口彈草財款這些都是事實啊為什麼要保留"},{"start":14912.952,"end":14933.399,"text":"為什麼保留 這都是國家級詐騙為什麼保留 你在掩護詐騙嗎我認為是這樣嘛 你們沒有共識他們要說明啊 到底立法院慎重提出案子 有哪裡是不對的我們可以改嘛如果對的就應該通過啊你們黨團沒有共識就應該保留啦你們要求國藝人 黨團協商不過我們請行政部門說明有什麼不對的什麼國藝人 等一下是國藝人"},{"start":14941.625,"end":14944.726,"text":"其實你看這寫了一大篇 真正最重要的是最後兩行"},{"start":14964.734,"end":14989.003,"text":"原此要求行政院跟所屬部會 要施政避免濫用國家隊 損及政府威信那意思就是說講了這麼多國家隊 成立了幾十個 四十個國家隊那是不是太多了啊就是你們把國家隊污名化啊這麼好的東西被你們污名化啊"},{"start":14990.613,"end":15013.825,"text":"好沒有共識我們就保留啦齁好49案沒有共識保留50案主決議我們有建議一些修正的文字有有在大家手上有有沒有修正最後一張最後一張50案"},{"start":15018.088,"end":15041.846,"text":"這個為什麼刪掉 行政院宣布投入14億是沒有投入是嗎是數字寫錯了還是寫太少或寫太多行政院去年7月宣布投入14億成立長大國家隊他投入14億元 這六個字刪掉的主要原因是寫錯了 太少還是太多還是你們當時沒說數字"},{"start":15045.714,"end":15072.535,"text":"原因是什麼 為什麼要刪掉這個民主黨要請教一下就是主要是 文字對照會覺得說好像 又講說投入14億但是成績 打詐成績完全不及格 這兩個連動不是啊 你們有沒有投入14億嘛 有沒有投入投入有 是有 為什麼要刪掉 有宣布投入14億但是他這個不是一年啦 是兩年不管嘛 去年 我們只寫的是去年7月宣布這個是事實嘛 在未來那這句為什麼要刪掉"},{"start":15073.933,"end":15077.015,"text":"打詐成績完全不合格 百姓覺得你的打詐成績合格嗎"},{"start":15087.361,"end":15103.35,"text":"我想也有一些成果啦你覺得可以打幾分合格是不是沒有啦 那你協商他要修改我們怎麼知道他修改的原因可以啊我們問說他修改14億是不是真的有投入時間他說有嘛有就不用管嘛"},{"start":15111.895,"end":15125.884,"text":"政府打仗成績完全不行他認為可以嘛我問他說大概幾分嘛那回答一下就好了啊他可以寫進來啊你不是問他我問你怎麼會知道他才是行政院啦行政院在打仗還是柯建民在打仗為什麼這樣保留"},{"start":15129.48,"end":15132.883,"text":"他要刪掉這段很奇怪啊 我們理性的提出來他為什麼要刪掉勒"},{"start":15145.165,"end":15150.169,"text":"為什麼每個人都要保留 居住正義這個 叫你們做居住正義有什麼要保留的咧你們又改了什麼 主決議為什麼要保留"},{"start":15174.068,"end":15180.896,"text":"有修改什麼文字有什麼需要修改的嗎因為裡面有蠻多不容易去修改 比如說大撒幣"},{"start":15191.363,"end":15193.845,"text":"忽略最關鍵的房東不讓房租領補貼這個是事實啊哪一段是不對的"},{"start":15213.888,"end":15215.19,"text":"五十一案保留五十二案"},{"start":15227.509,"end":15227.909,"text":"請國防部一年內做具體規劃"},{"start":15245.086,"end":15273.488,"text":"那這個事實上之前有沒有撤離過 有啊在阿扁總統的時候這個三金魚退就有撤離過啊所以你說這個到底有什麼樣的困難那本來現在的狀況是說你要去做這個中間建廠的規劃等等之類的那你可以你的這個轉型本來這個三金魚退的撤離本來就是可以"},{"start":15274.309,"end":15301.698,"text":"去先去做嘛那並不是說要等待什麼同向的處置才可以去處理啊那這個每年都有這一題啦我們先保留一下好不好沒有我的要求是說我的提案只是說叫他一年內去就這個三軍移退撤離中央紀念堂去規劃嘛那本來他就可以提出一個規劃保留啊好那國防部也不是在這裡啊"},{"start":15303.647,"end":15306.809,"text":"行政院便便部就到此告一段落結束接下來就到原民會"},{"start":15334.417,"end":15338.459,"text":"我們現在要進行園民會的...我們進行園民會 首先介紹園民會的列席所長園民會的主任委員 宜將伯洛"},{"start":15364.38,"end":15392.942,"text":"好那接下來就請大家看五十三案那五十三案改為主決議沒有意見就通過五十案改為主決議沒有意見通過那五十五案五十五案是怎麼樣五十五案你改主決議吧對不對好沒有意見通過好"},{"start":15395.222,"end":15407.865,"text":"那五十六案也改組結議,沒有意見通過那五十七案也改組結議好,五十七案也改組結議好,那沒有意見就通過五十八案改組結議"},{"start":15425.907,"end":15450.177,"text":"五十八案改組結議但沒有意見通過五十九案已經改組結議但沒有意見通過六十案組結議文字修正但沒有意見通過六十一案組結議文字修正沒有意見通過六十二案組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":15452.322,"end":15463.928,"text":"六十三案 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過六十四案 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過六十五案 主決議 沒意見通過"},{"start":15465.213,"end":15465.653,"text":"我介紹一下列席的首長"},{"start":15491.803,"end":15507.838,"text":"現在換客家委員會,那列席的首長是主任委員楊長正先生接下來就請大家看70案70案改組結議,沒有見通過71案改組結議,沒有見通過72案改組結議,沒有見通過73案改凍結100萬年,沒有見通過"},{"start":15518.367,"end":15531.612,"text":"74案 並委員會決議辦理沒有先通過75案 改組決議沒有先通過76案 改組決議沒有先通過77案 改組決議沒有先通過78案 改組決議沒有先通過79案 改組決議沒有先通過80案 改組決議沒有先通過81案 改組決議沒有先通過82案 改組決議沒有先通過"},{"start":15547.438,"end":15551.001,"text":"改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過改組結議沒有意見通過"},{"start":15572.881,"end":15573.601,"text":"那接下來就換大陸委員會"},{"start":15600.878,"end":15605.819,"text":"中選會我先來介紹列席的所長中選會是他們自己拿他們那一本去"},{"start":15629.699,"end":15649.823,"text":"現在進行中選會那中選會列席的首長主任委員李敬勇先生現在就請大家看中選會九十案九十案溝通改為主介議文字有一點修正大家"},{"start":15655.168,"end":15655.848,"text":"沒有簽沒有簽"},{"start":15685.219,"end":15713.701,"text":"有溝通沒簽字啦沒有簽啦,溝通為國有沒有簽字沒有簽那就保留謝謝來,91案先謝謝昭緯昭緯已經同意撤簽撤簽,撤案啦撤案,對不起,撤案撤案嘛好,撤,謝謝撤案"},{"start":15715.202,"end":15723.655,"text":"好九十二案並委員會皆辦理好好 民意見通過九十三案"},{"start":15727.81,"end":15747.461,"text":"這個沒有併委員會 這個好像有溝通嗎有跟黨團溝通嗎93你就是像你溝通就可以了但這個我們想要先保留請委員支持我們會議順便報告我想這一案黨團是希望保留93案保留90案併委員結辦理沒有見通過"},{"start":15751.12,"end":15756.304,"text":"95案改組決議,沒有意見通過96案並委員會決議辦理,沒有意見通過97案改組決議,沒有意見通過98案改組決議,沒有意見通過99案這個"},{"start":15773.948,"end":15775.448,"text":"改為書面報告 那沒有見通過改書面報告 可以嗎"},{"start":15797.389,"end":15797.589,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":15811.738,"end":15815.019,"text":"稍安通過101案主決議就稍安通過"},{"start":15834.841,"end":15857,"text":"對不起 是改書面 改書面什麼改書面96案 96案就病委員會決一半禮阿對 病委員會決一半禮是沒有錯病委員會決一半禮就很好阿是怎麼樣好 謝謝有文字要修改是嗎"},{"start":15857.959,"end":15864.883,"text":"對 就改成書面了"},{"start":15888.761,"end":15906.368,"text":"我們現在換看大陸委員會首先介紹列席的首長主任委員秋泰山先生接下來請大家看102案"},{"start":15913.826,"end":15935.346,"text":"102案那個賴世保委員那個說這個案子要保留你們沒有過去溝通齁報告院長跟委員齁我們本來跟他定明天早上11點那因為這個臨時提早到這邊那我們剛剛有去跟他的主任報告但是他的主任好像還是希望能夠堅持他們是希望堅持來我們現在處理好了"},{"start":15937.228,"end":15937.688,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":15965.399,"end":15967.2,"text":"請我們保留的我們尊重一下提案"},{"start":15981.159,"end":15992.985,"text":"所有的案子黨編都在這裡處理不能說這個案子還是問他們那不然剛剛為什麼都不處理都給我們保留前面幾個案子都給我們保留沒有期間我們現在很處理啦醫生們如果說我們病委員會結議辦你這樣可不可以這不是我們黨團說的"},{"start":15998.968,"end":16003.991,"text":"為什麼你們突然不能保留了是怎樣 那兇兇不可以前面幾個都保留 我們也是現場 你也應該現場決定"},{"start":16027.182,"end":16027.622,"text":"委員會結論是多少"},{"start":16053.695,"end":16053.935,"text":"102案併文的接辦禮"},{"start":16081.631,"end":16086.173,"text":"103案 並委員會接辦 禮儀沒有見通過104案 並委員會接辦 禮儀沒有見通過105案 並委員會接辦 禮儀沒有見通過106案 台灣民眾黨說明文字我們已經有給民眾黨了啦"},{"start":16103.843,"end":16104.243,"text":"委員會是多少"},{"start":16131.631,"end":16132.993,"text":"這題先保留好不好這題東團就堅持"},{"start":16147.854,"end":16148.855,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16164.07,"end":16164.57,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16185.677,"end":16185.957,"text":"並委員結辦禮提書面報告"},{"start":16198.348,"end":16198.608,"text":"107 本席"},{"start":16222.839,"end":16235.672,"text":"一億五千多萬 其中主管的費用是六千五百萬這一次增加了四千五百萬里頭根據跟往年的預算比較人事及行政費用就增加了兩千萬從九千八百萬變成一億一千八百萬"},{"start":16243.103,"end":16246.825,"text":"今年增加的預算裡頭 兩岸文書驗證 聯合服務中心兩岸婚姻親子關懷 司法行政互助 只有增加35萬6千但是人事行政費增加2千萬"},{"start":16267.526,"end":16295.546,"text":"所以我想 因為我有請我當時有跟那個陸委會長說這個要請海紀委說明齁那這個 我也說過齁但是還沒有來說明前就給我扣紅帽子到媒體去給我扣帽子說為了什麼中國啊什麼就刪海紀委今年增加四千五百萬有兩千萬是人事及行政費用人事費用裡頭六千五百萬的主管的費用換句話說一個月五百萬是主管啊我看過他們主管的薪水他們一年還有一千萬的獎金啊"},{"start":16296.286,"end":16314.689,"text":"海基會做什麼事有一年有一千萬的獎金每個人薪水一個月都是十幾萬 二十幾萬海基會現在有什麼功能 功能很少嘛做最多的就是兩岸文書院證 今年增加預算只有35萬多所以我想請問這個因為我請海基會說明 海基會沒有來說明嘛今天我人都在這裡 他們也知道"},{"start":16315.717,"end":16326.351,"text":"所以我覺得這個應該照本席的提案通過了然後我也說了如果入委會宣布明年就開放那個入客到金門來旅遊我這個案子馬上撤掉"},{"start":16327.843,"end":16329.324,"text":"說明一下好不好大家都想知道啦"},{"start":16357.383,"end":16358.624,"text":"主題啊 為什麼增加兩千萬 告訴我一下"},{"start":16381.502,"end":16393.112,"text":"主席 您的提案我的提案 人事局行政費暴漲兩千萬公共臺灣要求臺灣人參加這個提案就是 海基會福利不夠嘛陳議員再做報告沒有啦 那個主委來你先不要講啦你先不要講是不是陳議員陳委員 其實喔"},{"start":16400.018,"end":16418.284,"text":"這個案子也發生出來了你寫了也不清楚啦你那一百空氣站你那減四千五百萬那個喔那是增加的喔不是歷來的今年增加四千五百萬我就跟你說你現在講的跟你的提案講的就是兩件事因為你們不看內部嘛完全就不相干嘛因為你們都沒有看內部的預算我們是仔細看預算啊你仔細看預算你要把你三點理由寫進去"},{"start":16422.145,"end":16427.469,"text":"你的暗友你是講說什麼中共臺辦要求臺商不得參加我說的是他們到金門這件事情沒有辦得很好當然嘛我意思是說 你就笑成這樣你就說什麼中共臺辦要求臺商不得參加海基會考察活動"},{"start":16439.838,"end":16442.239,"text":"你當然這樣寫會引發誤會嘛你們不查清楚就給他弄媒體不對不對沒有人這樣扣你紅帽是講說你為什麼不去譴責老公你看扣你紅帽扣得讓你這樣笑嘻嘻你多開心啊你把紅帽子往頭上戴啊"},{"start":16465.589,"end":16482.612,"text":"我先請問一下為什麼要增加人事 增加兩千萬啊陳委員 這個你昨天還正在媒體講話如果讀你這個案的話看起來會覺得說這個是中共要求臺商不得參加海基會活動那到底跟陸委會有什麼事啊"},{"start":16483.112,"end":16512.482,"text":"是陸委會補助海基會的因為他的費用是列在陸委會的法證處下面啦因為預算是這樣編的因為你這個案有的話人家閱讀你這個案的時候也會覺得說欸奇怪這是對案要求的那到底不是我們後面有寫嘛陸委會長年編列預算補助海基會服務台商而且我後來看了陳一正講補助的嘛我還看了一個你這個寫法剛好被人家說你是紅的剛好而已啊"},{"start":16513.643,"end":16531.657,"text":"這個我是不是紅的不重要啦我也不在意你們說我是什麼顏色但是重點啦重點就是請問一下為什麼要增加兩千萬我到現在還沒有聽到說明啊但是我有看到兩千萬你入圍海基位需要兩千萬的人海基位已經薪水都很高了捏"},{"start":16533.941,"end":16549.382,"text":"6500萬的主管喔 總共一多二人事喔他那講人事費2000萬 譬如說他的名﹖他的緣額﹖他的緣額增加了多少還是他加了薪水 還是怎麼樣阿怎麼會人事費突然"},{"start":16550.123,"end":16551.544,"text":"有講真話齁來 謝謝兩個字就好 不要講太多保留這樣兩個字就好"},{"start":16580.475,"end":16605.352,"text":"市長也剛剛花那麼多時間嘛那益貞很認真提了這個案請邱志偉你們講清楚言簡意乾你為什麼要增加對海基會的補助4千5百萬講清楚按你的講的理由充分益貞會同意啊對不對"},{"start":16608.575,"end":16617.297,"text":"第一 基本上陳議員認為2000萬都是用在所謂的人事費上事實上因為院長跟委員都知道因為我們公務人員有調薪還有考積的晉級所以這個也會增加勞健保跟退出金的支出"},{"start":16632.401,"end":16654.197,"text":"所以在人事費用的部分是增加643萬其他的是增加業務的增加那這個業務的增加包括深化台商還有台生還有陸配的聯繫跟交流那我們的海基會因為各位大家都知道那最近這幾年的整個兩岸的經貿情勢特別大陸的情勢在台商經營上確實會產生進退或者是轉這樣的一個問題"},{"start":16660.601,"end":16683.924,"text":"所以他有一個台商法律服務的團隊 那我們陸委會是台商張老師那他們有另外一個服務團隊 可以要到中國大陸去協助不管是稅務的 不管是業務的 不管是他經營的 公司治理的那他們有這個團隊 所以他們去的話 要增加人員的人事跟行政的費用"},{"start":16684.565,"end":16684.665,"text":"主席"},{"start":16704.185,"end":16705.346,"text":"《中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案》"},{"start":16721.576,"end":16736.314,"text":"那這個每一個都是要海基會他們要協助家屬或者是有的家屬不要接那我那個實在坦白講接回來國內的這個地方政府也很痛苦因為有的要請他們幫忙協助那這個都是要聯繫的啦"},{"start":16737.715,"end":16764.669,"text":"所以就我所知啦當然比較細的項目還有哪些我沒有辦法帶他回來所以我請那個秘書長 邱秘書長去跟你做說明原因也在這裡但是大概就我所知道的至少這幾個項目所以他的人事費用只有在你剛剛提到兩千多裡面大概是這個643是他因為運營薪資 薪水的調整所衍生下來其他費用我大概可以跟各位做這樣一個補充說明"},{"start":16766.25,"end":16789.381,"text":"說一下齁 剛剛那個陸...沒有沒有沒有 因為他剛剛講有一些不...不正確 不完全齁 我講一下齁 當然 因為齁 事實上因為可能你們因為法政處長沒有跟你報告完全啦齁這個事實上他增加費用說寫在這個海基會的這個預算書的第28頁齁你剛剛說的這個海...法律業務的確有加錢齁4500萬元的法律業務有增加 增加了519000啦"},{"start":16791.422,"end":16812.57,"text":"兩岸溝通業務增加246萬這些都跟我說這一筆2000萬沒有關係人民緊急救助200萬 海商聯繫服務增加100萬 這都還是另外的喔這個我有做比較表 把去年跟今年的預算書的比較表做出來我說這2000萬是人事及行政 因為你們每一次的預算項目都是一樣的"},{"start":16814.05,"end":16841.998,"text":"他這兩千萬就是人事﹐辦理政府委託事項及人事及行政事務費事項他也寫了 寫在這裡 寫在第28頁裡頭他增加的這錢裡頭除了你說那個晉級以外還接著對外媒體的報道那個說明也是錯誤的除了那個晉級以外人事費增加那個晉級以外剩下的是一般行政增加了709萬3千請問一般行政的業務費為什麼要增加那麼多做什麼事情要增加700多萬"},{"start":16843.8,"end":16857.743,"text":"阿剛剛你說那個兩岸文書院只有增加三十萬六千啦齁整體情勢出版增加一百一十萬這些我都沒有講你還說兩岸多溝通那個你們只增加了十萬塊兩岸多溝通聯繫協調的費用去年 今年比去年只多十萬塊"},{"start":16860.168,"end":16880.876,"text":"所以你們增加有兩千萬是人事及行政費用你說那個正常的薪水調漲扣掉以後還有這個光你們的這裡面寫的就還有七百零九萬是一般行政費用到底做什麼事情要增加七百零九萬來啦這條你時代力量我講一下齁我講一下齁我們各黨團希望都有機會講因為當然就是說這個案"},{"start":16881.596,"end":16898.385,"text":"基本上是因為這個案有是因為說這個中共國台辦要求說臺商不能參加海基會的活動的考察嘛那有18位臺商沒辦法跟這個臺商協會的會長跟臺企聯常務副會長被告知不得參加所以他不敢來臺灣"},{"start":16899.52,"end":16916.22,"text":"那今天這個是因為中共的關係那這個陸委會他即便他的很多工作是在協助這個補助海基會在服務台上而且這個看起來這個是法政業務"},{"start":16921.426,"end":16935.663,"text":"台商在中國會面對很多法律上的問題所以需要去對它做支援給予我們的台商在中國的時候許多必要的協助我是看不出來是說因為"},{"start":16936.964,"end":16960.534,"text":"這一個案他被要求不得這個反台那陸委會也是沒有辦法啊這個要怎麼處理陸委會增加這個法律的協助有51萬我再說明一下這不是刪他的因為是刪他今年比去年增加的多了4500萬喔往年的預算還是存在喔今年比去年多增加了4500萬喔多給了4500萬我說那用到哪裡嘛"},{"start":16964.736,"end":16975.394,"text":"法律服務部分有增加50幾萬兩岸文書驗證做最多增加36萬你們多增加是人事及行政費用你說正常的薪水增加 這個我接受給你多幾百萬"},{"start":16979.204,"end":16982.967,"text":"多一千萬要用去哪裡你不知道 我知道"},{"start":16998.82,"end":17025.158,"text":"做台商的服務不是只有單純的法律服務稅務的服務包括公司治理的服務包括他未來全球佈局的服務那個都包括在內那不是只有法律啦所以我要講的就是說他那裡面就是你剛剛只是針對法律的部分是五十幾萬兩岸溝通協調聯繫交流有增加兩百四十六萬那是兩岸溝通協調但是我剛剛講的是台商的服務這跟那個人事我沒有關係喔"},{"start":17026.039,"end":17038.067,"text":"所以它裡面是包括人事費用就剛剛講643其他的其他是行政的費用啊多了行政費用不是只有法務啊多了幾千萬的行政費用這樣去打啦 保留啦"},{"start":17041.717,"end":17044.439,"text":"主委喔可不可以請教一下我們去年陸委會補助給海基會的費用總共是多少"},{"start":17060.854,"end":17089.89,"text":"一億五那今年加一億四千一億四千八就將近一億五嘛那所以照陳玉珍委員的講法就是現在等於現在變成一億九千四等於是多加了四千五百萬對不對好沒有關係那可不可以請教主委主要的問題是就是他增加了加了四千五百萬等於幾乎加了三分之一喔對不對所以那意思就是說明年海基會的功能"},{"start":17090.471,"end":17093.926,"text":"要比現在 要增加三分之一"},{"start":17095.518,"end":17121.864,"text":"譬如說他原本有一定會增加但是增加到多少是包括他們自己估算的因為這是很少見對一個機關的預算你的補助會一次增加三分之一這是非常驚人的所以可不可以請你說明一下你期許他明年比他現在要能夠多做什麼值得你多給他三分之一的預算"},{"start":17122.424,"end":17139.498,"text":"這是很驚人的 譬如我們 立法院不管多少錢我立委薪水一次多二三分之一 喔 怕死人啦所以這個部分當然我倒是建議 陸委會應該講清楚說你是基於什麼樣的判斷 然後你要一次加三分之一的預算補助給海基會 這個應該要講"},{"start":17141.059,"end":17143.1,"text":"主委講完沒有公示我們就保留請主委繼續"},{"start":17166.669,"end":17183.077,"text":"第二部分當然就是業務上的增加那是他們自己也有做了他們初步的這樣的一個大概幾個項目的提高那我們法政處就認為說他這個確實是值得鼓勵的所以我們就可以這樣的一個經費上的補助"},{"start":17184.978,"end":17202.465,"text":"所以基本上是他們自己 估算過去 已經有做 可以再增加的 譬如剛剛我所提到的 現在台商遇到的問題 可能比以前更多 我想這個大家都可以理解 因為整個全球化 跟這個供應鏈的生產的問題所以啊 這條保留就好了啦 這條不是這個原因啦 這條幫你凍結 這條台灣不是這個原因啦"},{"start":17211.409,"end":17211.429,"text":"109 改組結議"},{"start":17235.144,"end":17239.648,"text":"111案並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過111案改組決議沒有見通過112案這個賴委員有意見"},{"start":17249.138,"end":17278.677,"text":"118"},{"start":17280.026,"end":17281.647,"text":"我們休息五分鐘五分鐘後我們處理不當單產處理委員會的這個預算"},{"start":17310.663,"end":17311.184,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17658.456,"end":17678.624,"text":"來 我們繼續開會接下來我們討論不當單場處理委員會的預算首先介紹歷史的首長不當單場處理委員會主任委員林峰正先生接下來請大家看119案119案 來"},{"start":17691.547,"end":17691.567,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":17717.116,"end":17717.816,"text":"是保留嗎保留啦保留"},{"start":17748.827,"end":17763.323,"text":"一百二十一案就兵通山科目一百二十案這種還要一二二這個是我的案子喔不是啊這種為什麼要派國派員出國考察咧國家錢這樣亂用喔"},{"start":17767.658,"end":17768.019,"text":"一二二"},{"start":17796.004,"end":17796.684,"text":"一二二保留一二三組結議"},{"start":17825.646,"end":17839.37,"text":"有沒有意見 主席有沒有意見有意見那就保留齁郭總召建議保留 那我們就保留喔接下來我們換內政部主管內政部主管"},{"start":17862.493,"end":17880.601,"text":"介紹列席所長介紹內政部部長林佑昌先生接下來請大家看124案增列300萬年有沒有意見改增列100委員同意"},{"start":17891.854,"end":17911.833,"text":"修改成為增列一百萬元沒有意見通過一二五案通案那就併通案喔一二五併通案一二六"},{"start":17915.629,"end":17927.334,"text":"求選制來組決議文字修正黨團商已經蓋了並委員會決議凍結民政業務一百萬好126並委員會決議凍結一百萬好哇你這個你這個委員會有凍結嗎有有民政業務有凍一百萬"},{"start":17946.035,"end":17953.542,"text":"民政業務有動議嗎一般是他們自己提的民政業務啦改動民政業務這是內政部提的啦好126案並一般行政業務動結100萬並不是民政"},{"start":17970.976,"end":17992.705,"text":"他有一個叫做民政業務他民政業務有那個跟那個黨團時代黨團已經改章了啦是民政業務有凍結一百萬並委員會決議凍結民政業務一百萬元那提出報告啦好有他自己寫很清楚啦好"},{"start":17995.407,"end":17995.627,"text":"改組決議三個月"},{"start":18026.07,"end":18040.224,"text":"文字修改為三個月,對不對?沒有意見就主決議,文字修正通過128案,並委員會決議辦理,有沒有意見?沒有意見通過129案,我們部裡面建議改組決議"},{"start":18048.865,"end":18049.545,"text":"一大本都沒有跟委員溝通"},{"start":18073.072,"end":18097.269,"text":"我們可能再臨時這樣開啦齁因為本來沒有嘛齁是不是還是要等他們溝通完再來繼續好像那個你們那個提案可能還沒有時間溝通啦齁沒有啊 因為可能我們今天才決定可能今天因為才決定要臨時晚上開他們沒有時間溝通嘛那是不是就讓他們去溝通完再來繼續我們現在就決定好不好"},{"start":18099.332,"end":18099.693,"text":"上位溝通了這麼多喔"},{"start":18109.229,"end":18122.621,"text":"就請委員總召裁決因為委員會已經凍結一百萬年我們就是併委員會結議辦理好不好好啦好啦併委員會結議辦理再來130案改組結議沒有建議就通過好好131案也是併委員會結議辦理好不好好沒有建議就這樣"},{"start":18137.441,"end":18157.457,"text":"那132也併委員結辦理如何131是改組決議吧131改組決議132就因為沒有看到 你們有沒有印出來那個是剛剛休息的時間才蓋到的"},{"start":18161.328,"end":18180.293,"text":"一百三十二案主決議改為主決議那沒有意見就照樣通過一三三案三個月不是一個月啦一三三案已經跟黨團報告過同意改為主決議沒有同意吧一三三有同意沒有同意喔所以這邊是希望還是可以做一些凍結然後交一個報告吧"},{"start":18186.814,"end":18214.747,"text":"應該是這樣吧,就我這邊收到的訊息是這樣對阿,他就是尚未完成溝通對阿,還沒有捏有溝通但溝通未果阿你不可以說我同意改成主決議喔你這樣說,我會打他咧中華委員,我們就這個就你們的133我們就併委員會啦,好不好不是阿,併委員會是怎麼樣因為他剛剛的講法跟黨團的那個...委員會已經動一百了嘛委員會已經動一百了按照我們努力的結果好不好"},{"start":18216.607,"end":18224.612,"text":"跟徐總統報告過嗎?報告過,這還不是這樣沒有,他原則是同意他原則同意,真的我沒有看到籤沒有啦,他在傳記,你給他翻不是跟傳記沒有關係啦他只是在溝通就這樣"},{"start":18237.686,"end":18257.435,"text":"這樣保留啦好不好這樣感覺我們有差異那個預算科目是在部裡面專規室那這個建議的內容是我們警政署部裡面跟警政署同仁都有跟主任當面報告過他們也同意改為組決議他是不是就跟那個委員會嗎好 委員會好好 並委員結一半禮"},{"start":18264.864,"end":18268.409,"text":"133案並委員會接辦理134案是不是也並委員會接辦理這個實在黨團已經蓋到了黨團已經蓋章了134134怎麼樣"},{"start":18280.575,"end":18283.617,"text":"改組決議就了?已經蓋章了這133改組決議嗎?這次已經蓋章了改組決議啊?134已經拿到蓋章了對啦 你們有就是說"},{"start":18305.236,"end":18312.044,"text":"如果有同意要有簽名而且應該趕快去印現在你們手頭上趕快印每一個黨團都要花"},{"start":18314.529,"end":18326.957,"text":"要給院長啊我根本都不知道什麼 都聽你們講 查一查這樣有順效嗎要給院長 說得順效有 有在現場已經被人家揭穿了 大家都有了 各種各樣 都揭穿了"},{"start":18339.929,"end":18345.233,"text":"上位溝通一本是你們的還是他們的沒有沒有這是內政部的"},{"start":18367.917,"end":18368.278,"text":"我們必須要"},{"start":18393.459,"end":18396.167,"text":"講一個講到尾我們今天能覺得就決一決"},{"start":18402.236,"end":18408.597,"text":"第二點就是說我們內政委會今天在開會的時候 大家都有聽到 我有宣誓就是一個月兩個月都改為三個月"},{"start":18431.301,"end":18432.382,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":18454.9,"end":18460.624,"text":"現在開始進行135案文字修正並文會結議辦理沒有見通過136案改組結議沒有見通過137案文字修正並文會結議辦理沒有見通過138改組結議沒有見通過139"},{"start":18482.378,"end":18486.84,"text":"139 實例的139 改組決議 文字修正139 案 改為組決議可能要麻煩人家 盡量齁 盡量支持"},{"start":18511.471,"end":18528.624,"text":"好那有有有有啦齁好139案改為主決議沒有見通過140案文字修正並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過好141案要國動委員提案的這個案有沒有怎麼樣"},{"start":18537.244,"end":18561.645,"text":"沒有沒有他也沒有提喔沒有沒有完全沒有沒有意見阿應該是沒意見嘛這個案子應該內政部也沒意見嘛照要委員的吧因為他們也沒修任何東西阿有跟委員報告過了委員同意修測案那委員還沒有簽名他同意測案是嗎好141案是吧測案分隊他同意阿"},{"start":18563.73,"end":18574.849,"text":"141案 測案142案 文字修正並委員會決議辦理沒有見通過143案廖國棟委員的沒有見名喔"},{"start":18575.39,"end":18575.41,"text":"144案"},{"start":18600.302,"end":18604.227,"text":"議員長,144案這個是護證資料外洩的那一直到今年的10月這個檢方也認證說這個在2022年10月去年這個護證資料外洩是我國的護證資料"},{"start":18619.284,"end":18639.912,"text":"所以就這部分內政部到現在也沒有一個行政調查報告那針對到底是說這個外洩影響的這個層面這麼廣那到底是說原因何在到底是什麼原因導致這個附證資料外洩而且現在檢察官檢方這邊也認證說這是我國附證資料了"},{"start":18644.281,"end":18661.84,"text":"那究竟這個副政的業務資安管理是出了什麼問題應該要怎麼改善啊那應該要有一個這個調查報告來說明並且是說徹底的去檢討嘛那你現在要把我改的這個我不會同意啊等於是說"},{"start":18664.182,"end":18691.26,"text":"這個不管是說凍結也好 或者是說這個公開調報告 目的何在 目的當然就是說希望能夠去徹底的去檢討並且去精進這個部分嘛 否則的話我們的詐騙的案件這麼的嚴重 那這個各機關所這個執掌的包括像護證 或者是說健保資料 勞保資料 這這麼嚴重的事情那你沒有妥善的去做這個防範或去處理的話 那這個對"},{"start":18693.302,"end":18702.767,"text":"這個國人的影響,非常深遠嘛好,那這一個案...沒有,他要改組決議,我不會同意阿因為他其實他在後面,並就互證業務資安管理問題提出檢討和改善措施"},{"start":18713.394,"end":18728.183,"text":"連這個都要給對阿給人家刪掉而且我只是要求因為這已經檢方都已經認為認證了這個資料是真正從是我們互證裡面的資料了所以檢討改進真的是應該吧不能因為"},{"start":18729.604,"end":18749.701,"text":"我這樣講很直白有錯要認錯知錯能改善莫大焉而不是不讓人家去讓你檢討跟改善沒有反對檢討改進所以他這個檢討跟改善措施也給人家槓桿不讓人家寫你要看他這個尚未完成溝通版他改的這個內容"},{"start":18752.096,"end":18767.922,"text":"第一個就是說你本來從去年這已經是一年了一年多的時間了然後檢察官都已經去認證說這個是我國的戶政資料了到現在一年多了你還沒有辦法調查出原因這也太離譜了"},{"start":18769.266,"end":18792.512,"text":"那另外一個之前的說法是說因為檢察官在調查所以你沒辦法行政調查那更是鬼扯那內政部來跟我說明的時候我就跟他講說我的櫃子上面一大堆的各部門的國防部然後這個警政署也有到處都是行政調查報告哪有說司法在調查的時候機關不能夠調查這個道理這是並行不備的嘛"},{"start":18795.369,"end":18797.83,"text":"有關新式身分證暫緩期間的預算的事情"},{"start":18823.703,"end":18824.183,"text":"146案並通商客戶處理147案"},{"start":18840.302,"end":18865.93,"text":"那是不是併委員會結議辦理沒有沒有沒有這一題已經部長也知道我們已經溝通了一年了就是你們這個內政部撤駐的事情我覺得好不容易走到就是上次你也答應開這個會議召集現在有個共識就是不是用年公享是提高工作費的部分這很確定但是因為現在我不知道後續開完會之後的實際執行的狀況"},{"start":18867.631,"end":18867.771,"text":"主席"},{"start":18893.34,"end":18893.64,"text":"文字會修正"},{"start":18916.319,"end":18941.792,"text":"147案改組決議,文字做修正,沒有意見通過148案併通商科目辦理149案併通商科目辦理150案改組決議,沒有意見通過151併通商科目辦理152凍結100萬年,沒有意見通過,文字修正有文字修正"},{"start":18946.314,"end":18971.883,"text":"152改凍結100萬元文字修正沒有意見通過153改組結議沒有意見通過文字修正有文字修正153改組結議文字修正沒有意見通過154改組結議文字修正文字修正沒有意見就修正通過155改凍結20萬元沒有意見通過文字修正有文字修正我們叫文字修正"},{"start":18973.783,"end":18973.944,"text":"主席"},{"start":18976.024,"end":19004.669,"text":"有有有155改有有有講好155已經好OK凍結那有文字修正齁有好那就通過156案凍結100萬元156改組決議文字修正那個改組決議好那文字修正改組決議沒有先通過157案病人接辦理沒有先通過158案改組決議沒有先通過"},{"start":19006.995,"end":19028.77,"text":"159案改組決議改組決議黨團蓋章了蓋章了齁那沒有人先通過有文字修正嗎沒有喔改組決議有文字修正有文字修正沒有人先通過160改組決議文字修正文字修正那沒有人先修正通過161改組決議沒有人先通過162"},{"start":19038.739,"end":19046.801,"text":"剪列五百萬改主席好了好不好委員說現場處理啦就改主席啦怎麼樣"},{"start":19055.885,"end":19056.506,"text":"改組協議162案改組協議163並通三辦理164改組協議"},{"start":19073.499,"end":19091.829,"text":"164有文字修正齁改組決議文字修正通過165改組決議文字修正有沒有文字修正165有今天要註明啦不然我這麼看不知道你有沒有文字修正所以這個你要註明沒有註明我這邊就沒有辦法"},{"start":19093.637,"end":19094.978,"text":"166案改組結議166案改組結議167案有沒有改組結議"},{"start":19119.232,"end":19119.913,"text":"改刪減業務﹑議政業務﹑科目執行調整"},{"start":19139.571,"end":19166.606,"text":"一六七案改檢類二十五萬科目自行調整好一六八並通商科目辦理一六九並通商科目辦理一七零檢類十萬改三檢醫證業務十萬科目自行調整好一七零"},{"start":19167.881,"end":19172.582,"text":"改檢列10萬年科併資料調查沒有意見通過170-1這個是設備級投資的通山項目資訊軟硬體設備級投資通山項目通案通案啦通案對它是那個資訊軟硬體設備設備級投資好"},{"start":19195.836,"end":19199.117,"text":"兵通山科目辦理好再來是171案改組決議沒有人先通過文字修正嗎有嗎文字修正修正通過172案勒"},{"start":19224.923,"end":19225.924,"text":"同意動200然後文字修正"},{"start":19243.134,"end":19261.113,"text":"同意動200好172同意動200萬年文字組修正那沒人先通過173案173跟剛剛那個附贈資料外洩一樣就先保留保留173保留沒有人先通過174"},{"start":19264.697,"end":19269.879,"text":"174動100萬整目動100萬174案保留整目動100萬整目動100萬你沒簽名提書面報告也沒跟委員溝通有 蓋章好 174動100萬"},{"start":19295.638,"end":19296.218,"text":"我們這個都有錄影喔"},{"start":19325.625,"end":19325.725,"text":"174改組結議177改組結議"},{"start":19359.849,"end":19370.996,"text":"178 建議改動整目一百萬 文字修正178 凍結一百萬年 文字做修正 沒意見通過"},{"start":19377.841,"end":19384.425,"text":"179去變178辦理可以嗎179喔 資訊軟硬體設備這是通案喔178是通案還沒通過欸178 179都是變通案啦179通案178呢不是嗎178剛才就是"},{"start":19401.793,"end":19405.176,"text":"181改組結議沒有先通過181組結議沒有先通過181組結議沒有先通過182組結議沒有先通過"},{"start":19431.455,"end":19439.923,"text":"好 照案通過182組結議 照案通過183組結議 遵照辦理好 照案通過184組結議 文字修正好 184組結議 文字修正 沒有意見修正通過來 185組結議 遵照辦理好 185組結議 照案通過"},{"start":19457.29,"end":19462.474,"text":"186 文字修正 主決議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過187 主決議 專照辦理 188 主決議 文字修正 主決議 文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過"},{"start":19485.276,"end":19491.378,"text":"文字修正文字修正沒有意見修正通過建議文字修正"},{"start":19509.376,"end":19536.332,"text":"192 主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過193 遵照辦理193 主決議照案通過194 遵照辦理194 照案通過195 建議修正文字195 主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過196 建議文字修正196 主決議文字修正沒有意見修正通過"},{"start":19539.02,"end":19544.062,"text":"197 遵照辦理198 有跟賴委員溝通 本來是要增列900 後來溝通過同意增列400"},{"start":19557.048,"end":19561.711,"text":"徵列400萬徵列400萬198修改為徵列400萬199因為這兩個案是通案199和200都是通案對不對他是兩個通案"},{"start":19582.694,"end":19610.74,"text":"有跟這個邱委員這邊的溝通他是說現場處理就是他也希望他本來是希望他能來現場表達意見對啦但是他們還是就黨團這邊是希望還是要有一個那個動結數之後精進補助的相關計畫審查核定之後有順便報告再解凍啦看這個國土署這邊願不願意這樣子阿如果不行的話我們就先保留好不好我是建議"},{"start":19613.416,"end":19614.696,"text":"主決議不要說一個主決議改你們的文章主決議比較快"},{"start":19643.302,"end":19646.743,"text":"暫時保留 暫時保留裡面溝通一下等一下晚一點可以回頭來"},{"start":19669.514,"end":19669.994,"text":"1999 200 一樣的啊這兩案一樣的啊"},{"start":19696.596,"end":19697.437,"text":"好 沒有一線的通過"},{"start":19714.946,"end":19723.133,"text":"202改動決議1%沒有接通過其實這些內容都有去溝通過是不是建議併內委會的決議來處理就好沒有沒有 這個就有來溝通嘛但是沒有這個結果就1%蠻多的 2億的這個叫我們委員會這樣就好了"},{"start":19737.766,"end":19743.69,"text":"這個要求說要有一個書面報告嘛那他也只是要求說我們三個月交書報啦就並內委會決議統一凍結這個但是你有去溝通但是委員沒有答應啊他還是說本來都說要現場"},{"start":19765.333,"end":19766.434,"text":"202跟203 凍結2億他有同意改組決議阿他都要199去按阿"},{"start":19795.134,"end":19799.515,"text":"該組決議可以我們就回到剛才有沒有暗示保留那個199案現在陳委員講說改為組決議沒有問題好來文字修正沒有意見就通過好來"},{"start":19817.062,"end":19817.082,"text":"204到203203凍結2億"},{"start":19830.582,"end":19833.484,"text":"203剛就是已經同意改組決議204改凍結1%204也是有同樣的一個案子那202跟204都先保留205改凍結100萬年"},{"start":19859.775,"end":19861.576,"text":"206 要不要被委員接一半禮"},{"start":19888.926,"end":19889.206,"text":"207 文字修正"},{"start":19915.151,"end":19919.572,"text":"同意凍結?我已經有簽字了207已經處理好了207改為什麼?207它上面300萬同意凍結是吧?對它放在溝通本裡面後面"},{"start":19945.732,"end":19966.103,"text":"你們溝通的結論每條都同意嗎沒有啦 有的也不同意啦修正啦修正啦因為我們的比較早提出啦他都有溝通本那大部分有溝通好對對對好這樣好"},{"start":19975.026,"end":19977.108,"text":"那你已經跟他講好了,我這樣怎麼處理"},{"start":19992.97,"end":20017.205,"text":"因為他已經有簽名了嘛所以他才他才那個啊我看我看這樣我看你有照本來就好了啦你就已經跟他說好了講好了就好了啊那因為我看你很多也都是延誼或是怎麼樣嘛我看這樣啦齁這個因為第三幕嘛動輒這麼多齁我看不如再"},{"start":20018.244,"end":20024.487,"text":"這第三幕國土管理業務這邊齁 能夠凍結兩百萬年 把它改為五百萬年阿其他都 都併 併這個"},{"start":20029.046,"end":20051.757,"text":"沒有啦 因為你當時沒有跟他講啊只有2002跟204齁 你暫時保留啦阿其他的凍結都變 這個委員會我們要改吧因為這個他已經有簽名了 而且他們都已經先溝通好了啦所以 這個是不是說 如果他要再改的話那可能就是先保留 然後他們再談啊"},{"start":20055.393,"end":20068.618,"text":"那因為看起來這個這個數字也不多然後你很多都要求改成請他來你同意就同意啦好來208也是一樣凍結300喔對208也是209"},{"start":20075.803,"end":20076.424,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20094.341,"end":20115.212,"text":"212 文字修正 病毒人員接一半 禮沒有見通過啦這個 那個 二零 院長 不好意思 207 那個齁 欸 欸 你這個 是在說什麼啊 你那個公告買了 你阿表都劃掉 你們是像比如說 207 你講請國土署禁訴 研議 買阿表你那個 阿不 你使得動之 你也毀掉啊你連 那個公開上網後 使得動之 你也把它劃掉了捏"},{"start":20126.161,"end":20128.043,"text":"是阿,那你要怎麼解除?那不對啦207、208、207,你看210也一樣阿你怎麼會把使得動之全部都劃掉勒?"},{"start":20147.49,"end":20170.142,"text":"那根委員那邊直接講好不好好啦那你就再溝通你再溝通一下決議的方式吧對不對不知道你怎麼弄把那個解除條件劃掉阿對那是主決議的方式吧是不是他是要改主決議還是凍結沒有啦他還是在凍結阿他右上角有寫阿他右上角都有寫凍結"},{"start":20173.479,"end":20177.623,"text":"創組決議就好了吧創組決議就好了啦 大家沒意見啦阿這你還要跟他溝通啊因為你已經跟人家講好了"},{"start":20186.075,"end":20188.378,"text":"因為你跟委員談的是凍結案嘛一開始都談的是改組決議"},{"start":20204.502,"end":20217.647,"text":"那本來送到那邊 修正版本都是寫改組決議 但是他最後送回來還是所以你有跟人家談好嗎他後來又寫金了邱先生你這個大咖的 你這個民進黨數字都有寫在這裡的啊你當然有跟人家說好事啊"},{"start":20224.87,"end":20244.899,"text":"那你這一本叫做已溝通本欸你這一本叫已溝通本那你現在要變成尚未完成溝通本沒有沒有沒有那邱顯智你比任何人都更清醒啦這種寫法後面那個死樓洞字畫掉那個都是主角的寫法啦所以沒有啦"},{"start":20245.419,"end":20264.965,"text":"所以這個部分的話 如果說他要這個條件還是要這個送內政委員會時的動資 這我也同意啊所以不要改成組決議嘛那你可以說 那這個後面這個內政委員會同意後時的動資加進去 這樣也可以啊"},{"start":20266.26,"end":20268.001,"text":"跟主席報告應該是來來回回兩次"},{"start":20287.574,"end":20288.115,"text":"總預算多少?200多億是吧?"},{"start":20309.663,"end":20311.344,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":20335.77,"end":20341.299,"text":"按照文字修正後可以解凍這樣就好了這樣實在定這樣可以嗎 對不對"},{"start":20344.699,"end":20346.641,"text":"現在我們跟歐一山 歐一山文字修正 並不能接半年"},{"start":20370.341,"end":20375.506,"text":"沒有意見通過214凍結兩百萬沒有意見通過215凍結三千萬有沒有意見215是不是病人接一半禮215病人接一半禮沒有意見通過"},{"start":20393.442,"end":20421.361,"text":"二一六 改組結一 沒有意見通過二一七 改組結一 沒有意見通過二一八 改組結一 沒有意見通過二一九 改組結一 沒有意見通過二二零 改組結一 沒有意見通過二二一 改組結一 沒有意見通過二二二 凍結一百萬年 文字修正 沒有意見通過二二三 凍結五百萬年 沒有意見通過有意見嗎沒有意見喔"},{"start":20421.96,"end":20446.796,"text":"通過文字修正他會文字修正文字修正23我看一下23OK好沒有問題204併委會結議辦理沒有見通過205文字修正併委會結議辦理沒有見通過206通商科目併通商科目那"},{"start":20448.066,"end":20453.531,"text":"二二七 凍結五十萬年二二七 測案二二八 凍結三百萬年"},{"start":20469.173,"end":20490.509,"text":"228民眾黨委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會就是300萬委員會"},{"start":20499.468,"end":20501.53,"text":"修正文字修正通過"},{"start":20529.185,"end":20532.627,"text":"233 文書修正改凍結300萬年沒有見通過234 病理委員會結議辦理沒有見通過235 通商科目236"},{"start":20542.714,"end":20555.864,"text":"文書修正必領結辦理沒有意見通過237組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過238組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過239組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過240組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過241組結議文書修正沒有意見修正通過242組結議沒有意見召喚通過23組結議沒有意見召喚通過"},{"start":20571.207,"end":20579.51,"text":"243有修正文字243有修正文字243有修正文字243主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過244主決議 沒意見就招待通過245主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":20601.223,"end":20604.046,"text":"246 組結議 文書修正 民運建築 施政通過247 組結議 民運建築 照案通過"},{"start":20625.529,"end":20627.11,"text":"到警政署了28我們就看大家"},{"start":20649.942,"end":20659.992,"text":"簡歷簡歷已經改組協議的文字修正好來248有改組協議是吧好 28改組協議那有做文字修正沒有意見就修正通過249改組協議"},{"start":20663.24,"end":20663.46,"text":"民眾申訴案"},{"start":20683.77,"end":20709.992,"text":"所以在這個違規取締跟在審核科技執法案件的部分其實民眾的反應是真的蠻多的所以我們才會提出這樣的一個案子所以他們有時候常常也要去跑這個行政訴訟相關我覺得是蠻擾民所以我們是希望當然在那個有一套更公開透明的一個獎懲機制這樣子對 所以這個部分應該剛剛署長也要做一些說明 對不對"},{"start":20711.372,"end":20711.532,"text":"主席"},{"start":20731.569,"end":20734.551,"text":"改組決議文字修正改組決議文字修正"},{"start":20753.786,"end":20776.241,"text":"我們看一下再回來那個 再保留 先保留啦好來 二五零就看一下嘛 那是二四九 二五零是我們的我們的就是 二九是他們的 你現在已經到二五零了 違規的部分嘛二五零就是已是組結議嘛 修正通過 我們就修正通過二五一改組結議沒有見通過"},{"start":20782.205,"end":20788.708,"text":"改組接文字修正通過好那251就是有文字修正的好那就文字修正"},{"start":20792.194,"end":20799.857,"text":"主協議文字修正通過252改主協議文字修正253改主協議文字修正254測案"},{"start":20815.305,"end":20817.111,"text":"報告報告報告報告報告"},{"start":20823.598,"end":20825.759,"text":"二五五二五五二五五"},{"start":20845.951,"end":20871.403,"text":"院長256他要改主決意我不同意啦 署長因為你這個爆閃燈的這個問題啦那其實你我在質詢的時候你也答得非常好他並不是耗字嘛所以他基本上他的狀況現在是處在一個依法無據的這個狀況那這個對我們基層的警察同仁也非常不公平啦因為警察法的第一課就是要依法行政嘛"},{"start":20871.883,"end":20890.18,"text":"那現在地方上 有四個 全台灣竟然有四個警察局他是沒有裝設爆散針的那也有許多的警察局已經不再採購了所以變成是說一個國家 台灣竟然各地的警察局有這麼多不一樣的做法"},{"start":20890.72,"end":20915.88,"text":"而且他是完全依法無據的情況之下所以在這全台灣6751處這個紅藍爆閃燈那他基本上並不是交通部法定的號誌嘛那連包括署長你還有交通部長王國才部長也都對這個詞非常保留的態度啊所以我是覺得說你要去研議有一個更合理的替代的措施嘛"},{"start":20916.901,"end":20920.784,"text":"他本來的用意是說 偷心 模仿警車散 民眾警示"},{"start":20926.631,"end":20951.029,"text":"久來後大家就知道那個不是警車那個不是警用的這些裝置所以就這部分的話真的我是覺得第一就是依依法無懼萬一他會造成比如說用戶人的視覺戰略或是短暫失明等危險反而如果真的發生危險的時候那警察局不是要去賠這個錢對不對"},{"start":20953.03,"end":20970.376,"text":"所以應該是交通還是要有專業的來你不是說警政署然後礙於這種地方的民代的壓力然後就去裝設這樣的一個部分那人家交通部也都持一個反對的態度"},{"start":20971.983,"end":20998.192,"text":"所以我是覺得應該要去徹底的檢討我這個案我基本上我只是說希望把你這個交通安全維護跟交通秩序規劃預算案凍結5%那你在兩個月內你就各直轄縣市各直轄市跟這個非六都的縣市的警局去盤點那到底這個設置有什麼合理性跟必要性當然就是要會同交通機關"},{"start":20999.893,"end":21021.606,"text":"譬如說我去辦會堪 會同新竹市交通處 人家交通處就講說我都沒整半天喔那當場新竹市警局是不是臉都綠了這個是對我們基層的遠景也是非常不公平的所以希望就是說去做盤點 然後研議更合理的替代措施 然後提出一個書面報告這樣"},{"start":21023.143,"end":21052.53,"text":"那當然就是說你應該是在一個目前這6000多處我基本上真的我真的如果站在你的角度的話我會想說這如果萬一發生事情的話那不是警局要去負這個國家培養責任所以當然就是沒有法律的依據行政就是這樣沒有法律的依據基本上這個行政它的正當性基礎是會受到動搖的嘛是不是我們建議是不是個並委員會的決議那我們提書面報告好不好"},{"start":21055.083,"end":21079.832,"text":"好啦 署長你既然都這樣講了就是併委員會決議啦 併動但是我基本上還是語重心長啦我覺得交通還是一個這個部長做過地方的首長連兩任得到這麼好的成績大家也都知道因為你交通基本上還是要由這個交通的主管機關來處理啊那這樣對我們警力的使用它有更"},{"start":21080.992,"end":21103.779,"text":"應該去用的除包安糧等等還有很多需要他去做的地方嗎256案就病委員決議辦理你說剛才是要提書面嗎叫病棟提書面報告病棟提書面報告就這樣通過那我回頭也是時代力量黨團的247剛才是247"},{"start":21110.249,"end":21111.69,"text":"主決議文字修正"},{"start":21129.276,"end":21130.457,"text":"主決議 文字修正通過257 改組決議 258 凍結50萬年"},{"start":21150.489,"end":21156.452,"text":"251改組決議,文字修正258改組決議,文字修正259改組決議,文字修正260改組決議"},{"start":21179.929,"end":21180.389,"text":"261 並委員會262 改組決議261 不是改組決議"},{"start":21204.921,"end":21208.162,"text":"院長不好意思我確認一下259有改那個組決議"},{"start":21224.692,"end":21252.364,"text":"2559改組結議 文字修正因為 署長我還是要提醒一下啦這個我之前有跟你質詢過那個彰化的學生完全都台灣人結果你警員就誤以為說他是什麼逃逸外勞把人家打得半死這個是非常離譜的而且即便是外勞我即便是移工也不能夠做這樣的對待嘛"},{"start":21252.904,"end":21253.184,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":21277.267,"end":21284.371,"text":"是是是有道理啦書長首先自講那個有道理啦教育訓練好來我們就接下來就263測案測案已經測案了測案264測案測案該組決議吧264咧測案齁"},{"start":21308.176,"end":21325.042,"text":"因為我們這邊沒有資料喔265我們同意同意剪列二十萬好 凍結凍結改組決議吧 是不是26幾啊265265不是改組決議嗎265這邊是寫剪列喔是寫改列 是不是改組決議啦改組決議好 改組決議喔你們要主動講啦 好不好改組決議"},{"start":21335.88,"end":21336.421,"text":"主席二六六徹案"},{"start":21360.669,"end":21364.892,"text":"268 測案269 通山科目270 也是病通山嗎病通山"},{"start":21391.39,"end":21399.056,"text":"改組結議 文字修正改組結議 文字修正 沒意見通過改組結議 文字修正 沒意見通過改組結議 文字修正 沒意見通過"},{"start":21421.141,"end":21431.066,"text":"275 通山 併通山276 併通山277 改組決議 文字修正 改組決議 文字修正 沒有意見就通過278 組決議 遵照辦理 照案通過"},{"start":21449.822,"end":21470.186,"text":"279 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過280 主決議 沒意見就召喚通過281 主決議 沒意見就召喚通過282 主決議 文字修正 隨時修正通過283 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過"},{"start":21483.579,"end":21496.867,"text":"284遵照辦理好 召喚通過285文字修正主決議文字修正 沒有意見就修正通過286遵照辦理主決議召喚通過286是遵照辦理287"},{"start":21510.369,"end":21523.48,"text":"這改列消防署這個消防署呢改列消防署改列消防署那消防署呢好那就這個就照案通過288主席遵照辦理好 照案通過289主席遵照辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":21539.033,"end":21541.455,"text":"接下來就中央警察大學"},{"start":21572.863,"end":21590.548,"text":"中央警察教學我們就看294齁294改組結議文字修正沒有意見就修正通過齁295有拜訪委員公司同意撤案295組結議已經撤案296"},{"start":21597.096,"end":21604.222,"text":"副院長跟政委也召開過好幾次會議,那分別由經濟部率同政府共同來執行,在執行當中跟委員報告怎麼樣?"},{"start":21623.949,"end":21648.974,"text":"296這個狀況 署長因為這個在臺灣 這很心酸因為消防員 我們的這些弟兄來到現場的時候根本不知道危險物品在哪裡或是說是不是有危險物品所以這個案子已經就是法律案執行面然後化學園這個區塊分別政委特別交辦幾個面向正在執行當中那我們的法律案也在"},{"start":21650.454,"end":21678.512,"text":"這個月已經報到立法院來做一個審議就是針對沒有依照法令的執行部份行事法跟行政法分別都有加重這方面的處理就說沒有申報的人對工廠輔導法這次也列入修正對這幾個面向的執行目前正在如火如荼當中那各縣市也針對這些危險物品場所全面針對高危險跟中危險場所正在全面的執行當中"},{"start":21679.392,"end":21679.632,"text":"這兩個月的時間應該可以把這些盤點清楚"},{"start":21696.127,"end":21710.155,"text":"那沒有發現更黃潤說要怎麼去處罰當然加重處罰是一個方向但是即便這個修法過了你還是要去做加強的去檢查嘛因為從桃園的例子從這個現在這個屏東的這個例子你就會知道說這個是一個長久以來的問題啊"},{"start":21719.58,"end":21743.389,"text":"工廠法這次也修正他三個月要做一個提報所以工廠法提報的結果會把這個資料跟我們做勾結就化學那邊做勾結我們一方面檢查以外另外化學那邊也會把最新的工廠法申報的結果三個月申報的結果讓我們知道所以會用交叉的方式來做一個比對市民道立法院"},{"start":21743.809,"end":21744.069,"text":"改組決議也沒有關係"},{"start":21773.01,"end":21793.368,"text":"296改為處決議對不對對好 處決議已經改好了吧好 那沒有人先通過 297凍結10萬元 文字修正凍結10萬元那這樣就病毒委員會接一半就好啦好 那文字修正嘛 對不對好 病毒委員會接一半"},{"start":21795.471,"end":21811.462,"text":"好,298病毒階級辦理,沒意見通過好,298是消防人力的部分啦,齁899改組決議,沒意見通過文字修正好,文字修正,沒意見通過改組決議,是300,300改組決議,沒意見通過好301改組決議,沒意見通過好"},{"start":21818.553,"end":21818.933,"text":"302 改組結議 303 組結議 304 組結議 召喚通過"},{"start":21837.828,"end":21844.272,"text":"305 主席改書面報告305 主席 文字修正 讓媒介修正通過306 主席 307 主席 文字修正 文字修正 修正通過308 主席 照案通過"},{"start":21867.881,"end":21868.462,"text":"309 改組決議 309 運通三項目"},{"start":21897.165,"end":21898.626,"text":"311文子修正311改組決議嗎311有改組決議嗎有委員溝通嗎有有有 這個都有溝通311怎麼樣文子修正"},{"start":21915.962,"end":21926.265,"text":"是改組決議還是文字修正就併委員會文字修正311併委員會決議辦理文字修正312改組決議文字修正313併通商科目文字修正"},{"start":21942.539,"end":21960.623,"text":"併通山314改組決議文職修正好文職修正沒有意見修正通過315併通山公務316併通山316對阿這不會沒有是吧阿他沒有沒有統山阿統山阿"},{"start":21968.301,"end":21993.38,"text":"316也是通山嗎通山通山啦這是改組決議這是沒有溝通的嗎有有有有溝通有溝通喔對那他是改組決議阿他沒有通山阿後來他不同意後來那個委員不同意啦是就通山就併那個通山啦317組決議他不同意遵照辦理遵照辦理好召喚通過318組決議"},{"start":21996.499,"end":22016.665,"text":"蚊子修正主結衣 蚊子修正 沒有意見 修正通過蚊子修正主結衣 蚊子修正通過 三二零 主結衣遵照辦理召喚通過三二一一民署三二一"},{"start":22024.948,"end":22037.831,"text":"321改組決議文字修正改組決議文字修正修正通過322併委員會決議文字修正併委員會決議辦理文字修正323併委員會決議文字修正併委員會決議辦理文字修正324"},{"start":22052.495,"end":22055.776,"text":"改組決議沒有見通過324改組決議沒有見通過325併通山326通山科目"},{"start":22086.487,"end":22088.37,"text":"兵通山3-7兵通山科目"},{"start":22095.987,"end":22099.37,"text":"368我們建議這筆照內政部的178案這個是財運系統跟漁管系統的韌性計畫雲端恢復的這個部分建議改凍結100萬書面 余書明報告368"},{"start":22121.333,"end":22131.2,"text":"來凍結一百萬年提書院報告建議嘛對不對是就你們的建議好就這樣大家同意就通過369通3 330凍結一百萬年你們會見併委員會決議文字修正併委員會決議辦理你們會見通過文字修正好331併通3"},{"start":22148.54,"end":22149.28,"text":"建築研究所主席"},{"start":22179.923,"end":22181.083,"text":"335改為凍結50萬文字修正"},{"start":22210.043,"end":22213.324,"text":"336組結議,有沒有意見?同意好,召喚通過337測案338測案有嗎?有嗎?好來來來,愛委會愛委會"},{"start":22254.004,"end":22267.653,"text":"強勢現在進行海洋委員會主管的預算首先介紹列席的所長海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲你是強勢回歸來我們就看339測案是"},{"start":22276.442,"end":22303.344,"text":"三四零 文字修正改組決議好了改組決議嗎 改一個三四零是文字修正凍結10%能不能不凍 陳委員這個併我們委員會就好了嘛沒有阿 他說就是凍結然後改文字 文字都給他改很多欸"},{"start":22304.898,"end":22333.957,"text":"整個文字我快要改完了按照你們的那個我們有跟委員溝通委員有簽字委員有簽字啦文字的部分委員有簽字啦現在就是說凍結10%的部分對啊能不能謝委員教會的德嘛你看有書面報告就可以解讀你的老同事回來改組結議怎麼樣"},{"start":22337.12,"end":22341.423,"text":"改組決議 書面報告提書面報告好不好就不要動了改組決議 文字修正提書面報告這樣這340了341 併委員會決議辦理沒有見之通過342 改組決議沒有見通過"},{"start":22364.966,"end":22389.044,"text":"三四三四通三三四四是並有的接辦理沒有意見通過三四五改組決議沒有意見通過三四六通三三四七也是通三那就請大家看三四八三四八組決議文書修正沒有意見修正通過三四九組決議沒有意見就照案通過"},{"start":22391.877,"end":22410.358,"text":"三五零組結議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過三五一組結議 沒意見就召喚通過三五二組結議 沒意見就召喚通過三五三組結議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過接下來三五四就改組結議 沒意見就通過"},{"start":22413.719,"end":22415.62,"text":"一條並委員會就好了啦"},{"start":22429.69,"end":22431.671,"text":"356改組結議沒有見通過357改組結議沒有見通過358改組結議沒有見通過359並委員會結議辦理沒有見通過360組結議"},{"start":22458.703,"end":22484.984,"text":"沒有意見通過就照案通過文字修正有文字修正所以就修正通過361主席文字修正有文字修正我們就修正通過362主席照案辦理就照案通過363主席照案辦理那就照案通過"},{"start":22486.991,"end":22500.338,"text":"364 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過365 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過366 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過367 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過368 並委員會接一半 理沒意見通過369 改主決議 沒意見通過370 主決議 文字修正 沒意見就修正通過371 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