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報告院會我們現在開始開會請民主黨報告出席人數報告院會出席委員53人已足法定人數我們現在開會進行報告事項請民主黨選擇第三會及第26次會議事錄"},{"start":1793.075,"end":1817.214,"text":"宣讀立法院第十一屆第三會期第二十六次會議議事錄時間中華民國一百十四年八月二十二日上午九十至九十十四分十十至十十八分八月二十五日上午九十一分至十二十四十三分下午二十三十分至五十六分八月二十六日上午九十至十二十四分下午二十三十分至六十"},{"start":1817.975,"end":1843.246,"text":"地點 本院議場 出席委員陳委員招職等113人 列席官員行政院院長卓龍派等4人主席院長韓國瑜 副院長江啟臣報告事項第一案宣讀本院第11屆第三會期第二十五式會議議事錄決定 確定第二十六案均決定經過讀與相關提案並按協商第三至十五 十七至二十二 二十六至"},{"start":1844.546,"end":1865.716,"text":"第474案 均決定交互相關委員會審查處理或交互相關委員會第23案 決定計畫圖由院長召集協商第25案 均決定依黨團協商結論處理第475案 委司法院函送115年度施政計畫綱要"},{"start":1868.337,"end":1886.046,"text":"四百七十六至四百七十九案為社會福利及衛生環境委員會等所提出報告案執行事項夾行政院答案部分一件與本院委員執行部分事件行政院院長提出台美關係談判之進程"},{"start":1886.826,"end":1912.581,"text":"方針原則及台灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估專案報告並答覆質詢行政院院長等類型分別報告114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案中央政府丹納斯颱風及7.28豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案"},{"start":1913.722,"end":1939.285,"text":"編制經過並答覆質詢均決定交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查其他事項依114年8月22日朝野黨團協商結論一件宣讀完畢報言會針對第三會期第26會議的意思錄並沒有委員或黨團提出錯誤或遺漏之處我們現在作以下決定第三會期第26會議意思錄決定請宣讀第二"},{"start":1940.046,"end":1947.649,"text":"全院會有異議沒有異議通過報議會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是廖氏中青會所有廖氏中青會的朋友我們幾位廖姓的立委都趕快好好好我們掌聲熱情歡迎廖氏中青會"},{"start":1973.882,"end":1992.537,"text":"好 現在進入第三案 請宣布第一案 本院委員吳麗華等19人凝聚大選法第七條條文修正常案程序委員會建交教育及文化委員會審查宣布完畢第一案 本院委員吳小林等19人凝聚貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正常案程序委員會建交財政委員會審查宣布完畢"},{"start":1993.638,"end":2014.827,"text":"第五案 北域委員鄭振賢等16人離聚 核子反應器設置管制法第6條及第21條條文修正草案 程序委員會兼交教育及文化委員會審查 宣告完畢第六案 北域委員蘇清泉等18人離聚 家庭暴力防治法第31條條文修正草案 程序委員會兼交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩委員會審查 宣告完畢"},{"start":2016.107,"end":2034.967,"text":"第七案 本院委員謝易鳳等16人離廢至行政院農業委員會農業金融局組織條例 程序委員會兼交司法及法制經濟良務委員會審查 宣告完畢第八案 本院委員謝易鳳等16人離廢至經濟部標準檢驗局組織條例 程序委員會兼交司法及法制經濟良務委員會審查 宣告完畢"},{"start":2036.468,"end":2055.425,"text":"第九案 北部委員憲一鳳的16人離廢至經濟部國際貿易局組織條例 程序委員會建交司法及法制經濟 兩委員會審查 訊息完畢第十案 北部委員憲一鳳的16人離廢至衔接院農業委員會漁業署組織條例 程序委員會建交司法及法制經濟 兩委員會審查 訊息完畢"},{"start":2056.109,"end":2070.084,"text":"無異議通過更正第四案報告事項第四案現有國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案並案討論請問願會有無異議沒有異議第四案禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商討論下一案"},{"start":2072.165,"end":2092.773,"text":"第十一案 本院委員憲一封26人臨廢誌 行政運動業務委員會動植物防疫檢疫局所屬各分局組織通則 程序委員會兼交司法及法治經濟 兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢第十二案 本院委員憲一封26人臨廢誌 行政運動業務委員會動植物防疫檢疫局組織條例 程序委員會兼交司法及法治經濟 兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2095.739,"end":2097.5,"text":"第十三案第十四案第十五案"},{"start":2116.016,"end":2134.304,"text":"第十五案 北部委員卸一封的《16年禮費制》《簽證約農業委員會農糧署組織條例》陳述委員會兼交司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查 訊息完畢第十六案 北部委員卸一封的《16年禮費制》《簽證約農業委員會水土保持局組織法》陳述委員會兼交司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查 訊息完畢"},{"start":2136.525,"end":2155.232,"text":"第十七案 北域委員翁曉琳的二十四人離去中華民國刑法第297條及第339條之四條文修正草案前修委員會見交司法及法治委員會審查詢問問題第十八案 北域委員翁曉琳的二十五人離去詐欺犯罪危害防治條例第43條及第44條文修正草案"},{"start":2155.712,"end":2156.953,"text":"第十九案第十九案第十九案"},{"start":2179.042,"end":2200.214,"text":"法院會報告事項第20案現有國民黨團提經負二讀由國民黨團負責召集協商請問院會有無異議沒有異議20案本案經負二讀由國民黨黨團負責召集協商下議案第21案本院委員翁曉琳的二學生離去在宣誓於發展條例部分條文修正策案才宣誓委員會間交經濟委員會審查宣誓完畢"},{"start":2200.799,"end":2212.235,"text":"包委員會報告事項第二十一案由國民黨團提議金福二讀由國民黨黨團負責召集協商請問委員會有無異議沒有異議本案金福二讀國民黨團負責召集協商下議案"},{"start":2212.711,"end":2238.824,"text":"第二十二案 本院委員蘇欣璇等二十一人離去跟蹤撒種防治法第十二條條文修正草案財政委員會建交內政社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢第二十三案 本院委員陳金輝等二十一人離去公務稅條例第十二條支五條文修正草案財政委員會建交財政委員會審查 宣讀完畢法院會報告事項第二十三案由國民黨團體慶富二獨一相關提案並案協商請委員會有異"},{"start":2240.27,"end":2265.115,"text":"命令本案禁服二讀相關提案並案討論協商下議案第24案 本院委員李燕秀等18案理據 所得稅法第17條條五修正草案 陳修委員會間將財政委員會審查宣傳完畢法院會報告事項第24案現有國民黨團提禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商 請問院會有異議命令本案禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商下議案"},{"start":2265.563,"end":2285.1,"text":"第二十五案本院國民黨黨團理據財政收支劃分法撥本兩位修正草案財政委員會監教財政委員會審查宣討完畢報告事項第二十五案由國民黨團提經負二讀由國民黨團負責召集協商請院會有異議沒異議本案經負二讀由國民黨團負責召集協商"},{"start":2285.868,"end":2305.251,"text":"第26案 本院委員羅志強等19人你廢止經濟部工業局組織條例陳秀元會監教司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢第27案 本院委員羅志強等18人你廢止經濟部中央地質調查所組織條例陳秀元會監教司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2306.132,"end":2326.658,"text":"第二十八案 本院委員羅志強等19人你廢止經濟目水利署水利規劃實驗所組織條例 程序委員會見交司法及法治經濟兩委會審查 宣讀完畢第二十九案 本院委員羅志強等19人你廢止經濟目水利署各河川局組織通則 程序委員會見交司法及法治經濟兩委會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2327.698,"end":2348.748,"text":"第三十一案 北雄遊園羅鎮場等18日擬廢至經濟目水地署臺北水源特定區管理局組織條例 財修委員會兼交司法及法治經濟 兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢第三十一案 北雄遊園羅鎮場等19日擬廢至經濟目加工出口區管理署 所屬個份處組織通則 財修委員會兼交司法及法治經濟 兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2351.389,"end":2370.881,"text":"第三十三案 本院委員羅志祥等十八人離廢至經濟務能源局組織條例 陳修緣會建交司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢第三十三案 本院委員羅志祥等十七人離廢至經濟務標準檢議員局所屬各分局組織通則 陳修緣會建交司法及法治經濟兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2371.921,"end":2390.404,"text":"第三十四案 北越原羅志強等18日臨廢職 經濟部 產業 園區管理局 組織條例 程序委員會兼交司法及法制經濟 兩委員會審查 宣讀完畢第三十五案 北越原吳宗憲等18日臨職 公交人員保險法第48條 吳修正草案 程序委員會兼交司法及法制委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2391.385,"end":2417.976,"text":"第36案 北約委員吳宗憲等22人離聚 刑事訴訟法第101條之1條無修正常案 柴修委員會監交司法及法治委員會審查 宣言完畢第37案 北約委員張志倫等17人離聚 公教人員保險法第48條條無修正常案 柴修委員會監交司法及法治委員會審查 宣言完畢第38案 北約委員廖先祥等22人離聚 跟蹤送走防治法第3條第4條及第9條條無修正常案"},{"start":2418.616,"end":2441.17,"text":"陳述委員會監交內政社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查宣讀完畢第39案 本議會委員廖先祥等22人凝聚家庭暴力防治法部分條文修正草案陳述委員會監交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法事兩委員會審查宣讀完畢第40案 本議會委員張雅琳等19人凝聚總統副總統選舉報名法第11條第23條及第117條條文修正草案"},{"start":2441.65,"end":2445.371,"text":"委員通過下案委員通過下案委員通過下案"},{"start":2468.417,"end":2485.011,"text":"第四十三案 本院委員黃捷等學習委員的理據 住宅法部分條文修正常案 陳修緣會藉交內政委員會審查 宣布完畢第四十四案 本院委員黃捷等學習委員的理據 中華民國刑法第八水條條文修正常案 陳修緣會藉交司法及法政委員會審查 宣布完畢"},{"start":2486.112,"end":2514.33,"text":"第四十五案 本院委員王振旭等17人凝聚中華民國刑法實行法增列第8條13條文章案陳修緣會建交司法及法制委員會審查 宣讀完畢第四十六案 本院委員王振旭等21人凝聚議事法第8條12條文修正常案陳修緣會建交社會福利及物上環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢第四十七案 本院委員台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚環境影響評估法第5條條文修正常案陳修緣會建交社會福利及物上環境委員會審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2514.946,"end":2538.994,"text":"報告院會報告事項第四十七案現在由臺灣民眾黨黨團提議禁服二讀並由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商請院會有異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀由臺灣民眾黨團負責召集協商下一案第四十八案本院臺灣民眾黨黨團聆聚公民黨報告法第二十三條條文修正常案查詢委員會結交內政委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":2539.605,"end":2545.429,"text":"抱怨會報告事項第48案由臺灣民眾黨黨團體禁服二讀並由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商請問願會有無異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀並由臺灣民眾黨黨團負責召集協商"},{"start":2555.97,"end":2574.438,"text":"第四十九案 行政院喊起《水利企業變工法》增添第五章之一章名及第四十四條之二第五十二條之一第五十四條條文修正草案案陳修援會監交經濟委員會審查 宣布完畢第五十案 環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會的施加財團法人一百十五年度預算書案"},{"start":2574.958,"end":2581.079,"text":"第五十一案 內政部航運修正議劃使用其容器定期檢驗標準第五十二案 內政部航運修正都市計畫定期多門監導實施辦法第五十三案 海洋委員會含送海洋委員會及所屬機關構軍人選議申訴事件處理辦法"},{"start":2600.743,"end":2601.803,"text":"予以通過下約予以通過下約予以通過下約"},{"start":2622.409,"end":2643.401,"text":"第五十六案 農業部海運修正辦理專策系農業專案 貸款辦法第23條附表1 產修委員會兼交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢第五十七案 農業部海運修正公告西班牙資高病原性家庭流失性感冒飛區刪除 產修委員會兼交經濟委員會 宣讀完畢第五十八案 農業部海運修正農業天然災害救助辦法第6條附表3"},{"start":2647.806,"end":2661.641,"text":"第五十九案 農業部海外修正農業部農田水利署越南管理署農田水利實施範圍 裁修委員會 建交經濟委員會 宣布完畢第六十案 農業部海外廢水施加收入保險 實施及保險費補助辦法 裁修委員會 建交經濟委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":2663.763,"end":2667.545,"text":"第六宣案 農業部函送亞太尼農藥有效成分的四種檢驗方法即修正農藥礦物油耐冷試驗檢驗方法等二種檢驗方法"},{"start":2686.793,"end":2698.779,"text":"第六十三 經濟部國防部海關維修陣新一軍人家屬使用自然水用的優待付費辦法第七條條文及新一軍人家屬用電優待付費辦法第十條條文財經部國防部海關維修陣海關徵收歸費"},{"start":2706.603,"end":2721.152,"text":"規則部分條文 程序委員會 建交財政委員會 宣布完畢第六宣案 金融監督管理委員會 韓送證券交易法第四條 第一項單數規定證券商金主管金融核准的經營制業務種類發布令程序委員會 建交財政委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":2722.273,"end":2743.309,"text":"第66 金融監督管理委員會海文修正 證券商設置標準部分條文第24條 副標9 證券商管理規則部分條文及證券商負責人與業務人員管理規則部分條文財修委員會建交財政委員會 宣傳完畢第67 金融監督管理委員會海文修正 公開發行公司取得或處分資產處理準則第31條 集體35條條文"},{"start":2744.77,"end":2745.711,"text":"會議通過下議案會議通過下議案會議通過下議案"},{"start":2766.311,"end":2794.372,"text":"第七十二案 文化部韓文修正水下文化資訊保存教育推廣國立辦法第四條條文財修委員會建交教育及文化委員會 宣讀完畢無異通告 下議案第七十二案 司法院韓文修正最高行政法院處務規存第六十六條條文財修委員會建交司法及法治委員會 宣讀完畢無異通告 下議案第七十二案 福和部韓文修正性侵害犯罪負防護管束障礙人採驗尿液實施辦法財修委員會建交司法及法治委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2796.013,"end":2821.427,"text":"第七十三 法務部韓中階級者保護委員會申請辦法陳修緣會監教司法及法治委員會 宣傳完畢第七十四 國際安全會議 韓中國際安全會議軍人權益申訴事件處理辦法陳修緣會監教司法及法治委員會 宣傳完畢第七十五 國防部韓文國防醫學院組織官呈名稱修正為國防醫學大學組織官呈並修正條文陳修緣會監教司法及法治外交局國防兩委員會 宣傳完畢"},{"start":2822.648,"end":2847.506,"text":"第76案 勞動部海維修政就業保險促進就業實施辦法部分條文 程序委員會兼交社會福利及物上環境委員會 宣讀完畢法院會 第76案 國民黨黨團體改交審查本案 交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一案第77案 環境部安送氣候偏見風險評估作業準則 程序委員會兼交社會福利及物上環境委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2848.277,"end":2856.096,"text":"包園會第77案國民黨團體改交審查本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 下一案"},{"start":2856.533,"end":2881.724,"text":"第七十八案 衛生福利部海維廢止疾病中殘留農藥檢驗方法算命計及滿單之檢驗採取委員會建交社會福利及物上環經委員會 宣讀完畢第七十九案 衛生福利部海維修正預防接種作業與兒童預防接種紀錄檢查及補習接種辦法第六條付表採取委員會建交社會福利及物上環經委員會 宣讀完畢本案由國民黨團體改交審查"},{"start":2882.324,"end":2905.1,"text":"本案交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查報應會第八十案至第四百三十五案我們會依序宣讀其中第八十九至九十一、九十四、一百零三、一百零六、三百七十八、四百一十三、四百三十二案台灣民眾黨黨團體改交審查"},{"start":2908.422,"end":2928.293,"text":"第414 425 428案國民黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀之後以上提案均改交相關委員會審查其餘的議案均照程序委員會意見通過請問院會有無異議沒有異議我們宣讀宣讀之後通過請宣讀"},{"start":2929.226,"end":2954.603,"text":"第80案 之第1602案 內政部第103案 中央學習委員會第104案 原住民組委員會第105案 之第109案 大陸委員會第108案 之第109案 外交部第110案 之第115案 國防部第116案 之第119案 國家發展委員會第118案 之第151案 經濟部第152案 之第181案 農業部第182案 之第214案 文化部第215案 中央研究院"},{"start":2955.023,"end":2971.651,"text":"第216案 具體225案 國家科學階級委員會第229案 具體315案 教育部第316案 具體335案 交通部第336案 具體339案 數位發展部第340案 具體340案 司法院第340案 具體355案 法務部第350案 具體405案 勞動部第409案 具體412案 環境部"},{"start":2977.313,"end":2998.744,"text":"第四一三案 處理司三十二案 衛生福利部 第四三五案 內宣部 凱文一百十四年度中央政府總文宣中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第五期特別預算等預算權益 分別簡訊相關報告 宣讀完畢法院會第四百三十六案及質詢四項一併宣讀 宣讀之後我們均准予被查 請宣讀"},{"start":2999.485,"end":3020.618,"text":"第四三六案為本院修憲委員會函 為於一百十四年八月二十五日的星期一舉行立學節第一次學題委員會議 推選出五委員從縣林委員思明 中委員瑞雄 中委員嘉賓 黃委員國昌為該會召集委員質詢事項 本院委員質詢部分 本院委員志強向行政院提出質詢共三件 宣讀完畢"},{"start":3022.632,"end":3048.045,"text":"我們報告事項已經處理完畢後續議程進行有待溝通請各黨團幹部請各黨團幹部9點30分至議場後面主席休息室進行溝通另外今天是本院張雅玲委員生日我們掌聲祝福張委員生日快樂好我們現在休息"},{"start":6617.267,"end":6638.923,"text":"抱怨會現在我們繼續開會先處理朝野黨團協商結論其議事人員宣讀立法院黨團協商結論時間一百十四年八月二十九日星期五上午九時三十分地點議長主席辦公室決定事項一各黨團同意外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正查案及資通安全管理法修正查案"},{"start":6640.819,"end":6663.456,"text":"針鏈納入8月29日星期五 院會討論事項 處理完畢後再行散會各黨團同意上開議案 完成三讀後均不進行三讀後發言主持人韓國瑜 協商代表副根籍王洪維 羅志強 柯建銘吳世耀 陳培宜 黃國昌 張祺凱 陳昭芝 宣讀完畢報告院會 請問對以上超越黨團協商結論有無異議"},{"start":6664.696,"end":6693.835,"text":"面議我們就通過另外現有黨團共事如下分三點一今日星期五院會抽出動議之處理各黨團均無異議我們均照案通過二因討論事項第一案議事人員正在整理之中各黨團同意先處理討論事項第三案及第四案再回頭處理原列第二案及第一案區議案依序進行處理"},{"start":6695.117,"end":6708.21,"text":"三、本會期不需協商及已經完成協商結論之議案,於下會期則期優先處理。本次會議後續依照朝野協商結論及黨團共識,我們進行處理。"},{"start":6713.301,"end":6730.73,"text":"我們現在在進行討論事項之前我們先處理變更議程之提議並截止收案我們依照提案先後順序進行處理現在首先處理國民黨團變更議程提議共議案請議事人員宣讀提議內容"},{"start":6731.926,"end":6757.18,"text":"本院國民大黨團針對本次二十七次會議建議將本院委員廖偉祥等實習委員擬拒人工智慧基本法草案自委會抽出淨附二讀與相關提案並按協商是否有當進行公決宣讀完畢報院會本案依照黨團共識 照案通過二 我們現在進行處理民進黨黨團變更議程提供議案請議事人員宣讀提議內容"},{"start":6757.97,"end":6780.71,"text":"本院民進黨黨團 您請願會將委員李冠成等24人理據 所得稅法第17條條文修正草案委員賴慧媛等25人理據 所得稅法第5條之1及第17條條文修正草案及委員郭國文等全9人理據 所得稅法第5條之1及第17條條文修正草案自委員會抽出經負二讀並與相關提案並按協商宣讀完畢"},{"start":6781.533,"end":6798.841,"text":"官員會本案依照黨團共識我們照案通過依照黨團共識我們現在先進行處理討論事項第三案中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":6799.813,"end":6819.662,"text":"本院財政委員會於114年8月27日會同內政 經濟 教育及文化交通 社會 福利及衛生環境等委員會舉行聯席會議進行宣查由財政委員會賴兆起委員會員擔任主席邀請行政院主席總處主計長陳淑芝等機關首長列席說明並答覆委員質詢本案須交由黨團協商院會討論本案時由財政委員會賴兆起委員會員補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":6829.056,"end":6844.426,"text":"好 我們現在請召集委員 賴會員委員補充說明沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議須交由黨團協商報告委員會本案現在已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":6846.673,"end":6866.935,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論實踐一百十四年八月二十八日星期四下午一時地點紅樓三零二會議室協商主題中央政府丹納斯颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案協商結論一協商通過內容如後付由財政委員會整理餘照聯席會"},{"start":6869.697,"end":6897.657,"text":"會議審議審查結果通過送各黨團確認後於8月28日星期四效50簽送議事處二本案完成三讀後由各黨團各推派一人進行三讀後發言各黨團同意不提出賦予本次協商各項提議均與刊登公報紀錄協商主持人韓國瑜將啟程協商代表富坤及王鴻維羅志強 柯建民 吳思瑤 陳培宇蔡毅與黃國昌 陳昭之 張啟凱宣讀完畢"},{"start":6898.177,"end":6898.497,"text":"請宣讀第一款"},{"start":6929.911,"end":6933.834,"text":"稅出預算部分 請宣讀通案決議照協商結論通過 請宣讀二 各款協商結果"},{"start":6949.211,"end":6963.348,"text":"寫上審查結果第一款行政院主管第一項原住民組委員會照列本項通過決議二項第二項原住民族文化發展中心照列第三項國家通訊傳播委員會照列本項通過決議四項"},{"start":6965.458,"end":6984.706,"text":"第四項公共工程委員會照列本項通過決議三項協商結論第一款行政院主管第三項國家通訊傳播委員會新增決議一項第四項公共工程委員會新增決議一項宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第二款"},{"start":6985.39,"end":7005.246,"text":"第二款 內政部主管 第一項 國土管理署及所屬 照列本項通過決議四項 宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過 請宣讀第三款審查結果 第三款 教育部主管 本款通過決議一項第一項 國民及學前教育署 照列本項通過決議二項"},{"start":7007.925,"end":7023.792,"text":"協商結論第三款教育部主管第一項股民及學前教育署新增決議四項宣讀完畢在協商結論通過請宣讀第四款審查結果第四款經濟部主管第一項經濟部照列本項通過決議十項"},{"start":7026.994,"end":7041.307,"text":"第二項 產業發展署 照列第三項 水利署及所署 照列本項通過決議二項第四項 商業發展署 照列第五項 中小及新創企業署 照列第六項 能源署 照列本項通過決議一項"},{"start":7043.369,"end":7068.006,"text":"協商結論第四款經濟部主管第一項經濟部新增決議三項第三項水利署及所屬新增決議三項第六項能源署新增決議二項宣讀完畢在協商結論通過請宣讀第五款審查結果第五款交通部主管第一項觀光署及所屬照列本項通過決議一項第二項公路局及所屬照列本項通過決議一項"},{"start":7070.092,"end":7098.147,"text":"協商結論第五款交通部主管新增決議一項宣讀完畢在協商結論通過請宣讀第六款審查結果第六款農業部主管第一項農業部照列本項通過決議六項第二項林業及自然保育署及所署照列第三項農村發展及水土保持署及所署照列第四項漁業署及所署照列第五項農業金融署照列第六項農田水利署照列"},{"start":7101.708,"end":7111.68,"text":"協商結論第六款農業部主管第一項農業部新參決議項宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第七款"},{"start":7112.416,"end":7136.541,"text":"選查結果第七款環境部主管第一項環境部照列本項通過決議五項第二項資源循環署照列本項通過決議一項第三項環境管理署照列本項通過決議二項協商結論第七款環境部主管第一項環境部新增決議三項宣讀完畢在協商結論通過請宣讀第八款"},{"start":7137.703,"end":7154.555,"text":"審查結果 第八款文化部主管第一項文化資產局 趙烈本項通過決議五項協商結論 第八款文化部主管第一項文化資產局新增決議二項宣讀完畢趙協商結論通過 請宣讀第九款"},{"start":7155.27,"end":7170.554,"text":"第九款預備金照列本款通過決議一項有關正式別稅出預算隨後引上機關別審查結果調整宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過請宣讀三融資財源調度部分"},{"start":7171.215,"end":7192.436,"text":"融資財源第二度部分 最初手續財源六百億元照列全數以舉借債務之印並依據丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例第五條規定所舉借債務不受公共債務法第五條第七項有關每年度舉債額度規定之限制其餘照聯席會審查結果通過宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過"},{"start":7194.741,"end":7198.143,"text":"我們現在全案已經經過二讀現在由民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀之條文內容"},{"start":7209.418,"end":7235.987,"text":"一 稅數部分六百億元二 融資財源調度部分稅數所需財源六百億元全數以舉卸債務之印並依據丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例第五條規定所舉卸債務不受公共債務法第五條第七項有關每年度舉債額度規定之限制宣讀完畢報言會我們三讀條內容已經宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正"},{"start":7237.148,"end":7251.429,"text":"沒有文字修正我們現在作以下決議中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案照審查報告修正通過"},{"start":7255.175,"end":7269.826,"text":"我們現在進行完成程序後製發言依照協商結論由各黨團推派代表發言每位委員發言時間兩分鐘首先請林國成委員發言蔡易瑜委員請準備"},{"start":7283.8,"end":7299.308,"text":"院長 各位我們全國的人民大家早歷經各黨的努力協商丹納斯以及728的豪雨災害重建特別條例在立法院順利三讀通過"},{"start":7302.141,"end":7315.979,"text":"親愛我們大家都知道親身走訪感同身受從丹納斯跟728的豪雨從災害發生的第一天台灣民眾黨持續為災區重建而奔跑"},{"start":7317.501,"end":7333.482,"text":"動員了整個黨的力量協助重建這一場災害帶給鄉親傷痛遠遠超過在物質上的損失大家我相信感同身受今天特別的預算通過"},{"start":7334.878,"end":7353.997,"text":"就是不分黨派心繫人民的成果為了災害盡快復原台灣民眾黨全力支持預算的編列但也呼籲行政院在人民的血汗前一分一毫"},{"start":7354.397,"end":7375.753,"text":"都要發在刀口上發在人民身上不要像過去用預算甚至以來綁裝等等不正當的一個方式所以我還是要呼籲我們行政院一定要發在刀口上重建之路絕對不是很輕鬆台灣民眾黨會除夕"},{"start":7378.462,"end":7384.353,"text":"繼續的跟災民民眾站在一起盡到監督之責任"},{"start":7385.666,"end":7408.32,"text":"注意民意而不斷的來支持我們災害確保每一筆預算能夠花在人民的身上直到災民的家園完全恢復所以要謝謝各黨心系老百姓通過這個特別條例台灣民眾黨在這裡非常高興也謝謝大家"},{"start":7413.272,"end":7418.978,"text":"謝謝林國成委員的發言接下來我們請蔡議員發言王育民委員請準備"},{"start":7433.922,"end":7461.705,"text":"院長 各位立法院的同仁發生在七月七六 東南市颱風這是一百二十年來 第一次由嘉義寶地拚進來的風態到這個風態 給金閣在庫在三星的七萬三千四百八十七公頃水我們的家庭的電位有一萬兩千兩百九十六戶是沒辦法用電位再來在台電的部分 有兩條三星四百"},{"start":7463.642,"end":7470.608,"text":"99基點火條包括3基特高壓電塔還有13313座行動基地的行動基地台還有100萬六千八百六十四號停電"},{"start":7480.877,"end":7493.26,"text":"這麼恐怖的狩獵 再次的呈現這次詹納斯颱風帶來的一個影響所以不知道在火完的時候七月二十八號就來一個強降雨這個強降雨在五天的時間包括在高雄地區就有兩千七百八十五公里的路口已經直逼莫拉克風災所以這個災害除了讓這個災民處理都壞了我們的農水產品受到很大的損害"},{"start":7509.304,"end":7525.463,"text":"所以一直到今天包括要有很多的在庫 他的電視台還沒開好包括要有很多的鄉庭 他的樓梯也沒辦法來修完還有很多人的家庭就需要來修繕所以我們很感謝這次通過六八月特別預算"},{"start":7526.604,"end":7549.074,"text":"是可以說草野用最快的時間、最理性的態度做回來幫助在庫我們有很多工作要做包括說我們新竹的電纜的地下化包括說我們要給這裡的水灶、三百米、文旦、落果有很快的救助這裡的文廣室包括金蕉、酪梨、筍農這些多年生的作物我們要給它產業輔導"},{"start":7550.915,"end":7553.176,"text":"謝謝蔡議員發言接下來我們請登記最後一位王育民委員 請發言"},{"start":7580.714,"end":7606.596,"text":"院長各位同仁這次丹納斯風災災後預算600億可以順利通過首先我們要謝謝韓院長主持的朝野協商各黨團有共識讓他通過國民黨在第一時間我們最先提出了災後重建條例也快速的審議通過國民黨也用最快的時間我們把原來的災後預算560億提高到600億"},{"start":7607.817,"end":7630.095,"text":"就是要全心全力來協助我們災區的所有民眾進行所有的重建工作這筆預算一定要花在刀口上第一個現在還有很多災民他的屋頂還沒有修復所以我們要求所有的重建單位應該要加速幫這些災民所有的屋頂"},{"start":7630.675,"end":7651.125,"text":"都要全部復原完成第二所有農業設施的損失等等還有中小企業的損失我們也要求所有的貸款必須到位所有的補助要加速的發放第三這一次所摧毀的包括所有的電線桿都倒了所以電纜地下化在嘉義在台南"},{"start":7652.025,"end":7670.44,"text":"務必盡快的進行這一次呢也造成了淹水淹水的地方這些水利設施的加強也必須立刻的啟動還有一些電信通信設施他們的任性不足的問題等等這一些都有待我們的行政院跟地方政府"},{"start":7670.84,"end":7699.5,"text":"加強來進行所有的防任的體系的強化在這次的救災的過程當中我們看到很多人員非常的辛苦在第一線那地方政府也很需要中央政府的協助現在立法院用最快的速度給了最多的金額給予行政院所以希望行政院院長必須好好的領導所有中央部會的官員進行災後重建如期"},{"start":7700.02,"end":7726.228,"text":"如此的完工讓災缺的民眾有更好的生活謝謝謝謝王育民委員的發言抱怨會我們各黨團推派發言委員代表均已經發言完畢我們現在進入討論事項第四案後稅條例第十二條之五條文修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":7726.963,"end":7755.714,"text":"本院財政委員會於一百四四年六月十八日舉行全體委員會議進行審查會議由賴召集委員事保擔任主席財政部莊部長翠雲等分別應邀列席說明與會員對法案進行審查經在場委員充分溝通及寫商將本案審查完略原金決議理據審查報告提報院會本案與院會進行二讀前須交由黨團寫商院會討論本案時由賴召集委員事保補充說明宣讀完畢"},{"start":7756.334,"end":7778.548,"text":"我們請召集委員賴世保委員補充說明沒有補充說明本案經審查會決議須交由黨團協商另外賴世保委員等提案經第三會期第25次會議決定近乎二讀與相關提案並按協商抱怨會本案現在已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":7781.243,"end":7783.106,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商結論實踐114年8月21日星期四上午9時33分至11時"},{"start":7789.793,"end":7814.059,"text":"地點 群旋樓九樓大禮堂協商主題 貨物稅條例第十二條之五條文修正草案協商結論第十二條之五照協商內容通過 詳如附件協商主持人賴世保 協商代表傅坤吉 王鴻薇羅志強 翁曉琳 李燕秀 柯建銘 吳思堯陳培宇 郭國文 賴慧媛 鍾嘉斌 吳秉瑞 李坤成王世堅 黃國昌 張啟凱 陳昭芝 黃珊珊 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7816.897,"end":7843.449,"text":"请问院会对以上协商结论有意义没有意义我们本案逐条讨论时进一协商结论进行处理另外翁晓琳委员等陈金威委员等分别提案经本次会议决定近乎二读与相关提案并案讨论现在进行逐条讨论货物税条例请宣读第十二条之五"},{"start":7844.332,"end":7867.619,"text":"第十二條之五自中華民國一百十四年八月二十九日修正之本條文施行之日起至一百十九年十二月三十一日止購買氣缸排氣量在二千立方公分以下小客車並完成新領牌照登記者該小客車應徵之貨物稅每輛減徵新台幣五萬元但應徵稅額為達新台幣五萬元者減徵稅額以應徵稅額為限"},{"start":7870.72,"end":7896.241,"text":"自中華民國110年1月8日起至119年12月31日至放廢貨出口登記滿一年且出廠10年以上之小客車小貨車小客貨兩用車於放廢貨出口前後6個月內購買上開車輛新車且完成新領牌照登記者該等新車應增資貨物稅每輛減稅新台幣5萬元購買這新車符合前項規定者應加計該項規定減稅稅額"},{"start":7898.883,"end":7927.883,"text":"但應徵稅額未達前徵金額之合計數者前徵稅額以應徵稅額為限配偶或二親等以內親屬購買新小客車 小貨車小客或良用車且完全新領牌照登記者使用前項規定自中華民國114年8月29日修正之本條文施行之日起至119年12月31日至購買氣缸排氣量在150立方公分以下的機車並完全新領牌照登記者"},{"start":7929.143,"end":7956.708,"text":"該機車應徵之貨物稅每輛減徵新台幣2,000元但應徵稅額未達新台幣2,000元者減徵稅額以應徵稅額為限在中華民國110年1月8日起至119年12月31日至報廢或出口出廠4年以上氣缸排氣量150立方公分以下機車以下減徵中古機車於報廢或出口前後6個月內購買新機車且完成新領牌照登記者該新機車"},{"start":7957.768,"end":7980.375,"text":"因捐资货物税每辆减捐新台币4000元购买之新机车符合前项规定者因加计该项规定减捐税额但因捐税额未达减捐金额之核基础者减捐税额以因捐税额为限因前项规定报废或出口中古机车之车企登记与购买新机车之新领牌照登记不以同意人为限"},{"start":7981.095,"end":7996.387,"text":"本條檢證貨物稅案件則申請期限申請程序應檢附證明文件及其他相關事項執辦法由財政部會同經濟部頂支宣讀完畢照協商條文通過全案經過二讀現由民進黨黨團國民黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":8006.755,"end":8021.426,"text":"第十二條之五自中華民國一百十四年八月二十九日修正日本條文書行之日起至一百十九年十二月三十一日至購買七缸排氣量在二千立方公分以下的小貨車並完成新領牌照登記者"},{"start":8022.266,"end":8039.032,"text":"該小客車應徵貨物稅每輛減徵新台幣5萬元但應徵稅額未達新台幣5萬元者減徵稅額已應徵稅額違憲自中環民國110年1月8日起至119年12月31日至方便貨出口登記滿一年"},{"start":8039.532,"end":8053.744,"text":"且出廠10年以上之小客車、小貨車、小客戶兩用車於報費或出口前後6個月內購買相該車輛、新車且完全新領牌照登記者該等新車應徵知識貨物稅每輛且專心財幣5萬元購買這新車符合前項規定者"},{"start":8057.547,"end":8074.997,"text":"應加計該項規定減增稅額但因增稅額未達減增金額之合計數者減增稅額以因增稅額為限配偶或二親等以內親屬購買新小客車、小貨車、小客或兩用車且完成先令牌照登記者使用前項規定"},{"start":8076.258,"end":8104.437,"text":"在中華民國一百十四年八月二十九日修正之本條文施行之日起至一百十九年十二月三十一日止購買氣缸排氣量在一百五十立方公分以下機車並完成心靈牌照登記者該機車應徵之貨物選美量減充新台幣二千元單應徵稅額為達新台幣二千元者減徵稅額以應徵稅額為限在中華民國一百十年一月八日起至一百十九年十二月三十一日止"},{"start":8106.538,"end":8118.593,"text":"出廠4年以上青鋼排氣量150立方公分以下機車以下簡稱中古機車於報廢或出口前後6個月內購買新機車及完成新領域牌照等記者"},{"start":8119.062,"end":8136.532,"text":"该新机车应征之货物税每辆只存新台币4000元购买这新机车符合前项规定者应加计该项规定减征税额但应征税额未达减征金额之合计数者减征税额以应征税额为限"},{"start":8137.452,"end":8155.69,"text":"依前項規定報費或出口中古機車之車及登記與購買新機車之新領牌照登記不以同意人為限本條檢證貨物稅案件之申請期限申請程序應檢附證明文件及其他相關事項值辦法由財政部會同經濟部定之訊訊完畢"},{"start":8157.032,"end":8183.041,"text":"報院會三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有沒有文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在做以下決議後稅條例第十二條之五條文修正通過我們現在進行完成立法程序後委員登記發言並截止發言登記首先請李燕秀委員發言林倩琦委員請準備"},{"start":8198.902,"end":8224.995,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝院長我們今天完成貨物稅12條之5的三讀這個法案有三個重點未來汽機車太舊換新退稅可以延長5年達到119年汽車最高可以達到10年的減增機車最高可以達到6000元的減增未來我們的淨零轉型不再只是口號也不是理想"},{"start":8225.635,"end":8244.264,"text":"節能減碳更不是目標我們台灣要繼續做以112年為例運輸部門的氣室的氣體排放量佔總體的排放量達到13.03%顯示如何鼓勵車輛太舊換新接軌新的環保要求"},{"start":8244.884,"end":8264.847,"text":"进而减少温室气体的排放仍旧是我们重要的目标但是过去我们可以看到无论是行政部门的太旧换新的五万元的减增包括有利于救车报废跟减少救车能源的使用我们的量能跟数字仍然是有限的"},{"start":8265.327,"end":8290.943,"text":"今天我們不僅延長太久還行貨物稅的減徵期限達到119年我們也調高了汽車未來獲得5萬塊的貨物減徵包括汽車可以達到10萬元的減徵我們也希望現在通膨什麼都在漲的年代我們節能減碳我們希望有更多的好的誘因能夠讓民眾有需要的時候可以太久還行"},{"start":8291.443,"end":8316.205,"text":"能藉由我們立法院各黨派的共識跟修法能夠苦民所苦達到我們持續的節能減碳的目標淨零轉型的目標能夠減輕民眾賦稅的負擔以上 謝謝謝謝李燕秀委員的發言接下來我們請林倩琪委員發言黃珊珊委員請準備"},{"start":8326.394,"end":8349.95,"text":"院長 府會同仁 大家好今天院會三讀通過貨物稅條例第十二條之五的修正案整個的重點是在於持續鼓勵民眾太舊換新讓報廢或出口的中古機車能夠被新車取代這樣子的政策不僅是產業發展的助力更是落實節能減碳的重要手段"},{"start":8350.791,"end":8378.47,"text":"自這項規範施行以來我們可以看到明顯的效果老舊車輛逐步退出市場民眾換購新車的意願也提高不僅改善了行車的安全也降低了空氣的污染民眾換購新車 對不起減少碳排有顯著的貢獻對產業而言整個市場的流通率增加產業鏈上下游都因此而獲益產業稅收也隨之穩健成長"},{"start":8381.111,"end":8399.53,"text":"這次的修法不只是政策的延續避免出現落差更要放在國際的情勢下來看全球供應鏈正面臨重組貿易保護與關稅的壁壘持續升高汽車產業也受到直接的影響如果國內市場無法持續"},{"start":8400.191,"end":8413.062,"text":"活絡將使產業更容易受到外部的衝擊透過持續的推動太舊換新不僅能夠穩定內需也能夠協助業者提升產業的競爭力減少國際貿易的不確定性的風險"},{"start":8417.425,"end":8441.631,"text":"節能減碳是我們共同的長遠目標產業升級也是台灣持續競爭力的重要關鍵這次修法延續政策完善制度既有助於產業的發展也符合環保永續的方向今日三讀通過讓我國在推動經濟與環境雙贏的政策上再向前邁進一步那我們繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":8448.403,"end":8454.207,"text":"謝謝林倩琦委員的發言接下來我們請登記最後一位第三號黃珊珊委員請發言"},{"start":8464.389,"end":8489.551,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位同仁我想今天是非常重要的一個時刻雖然我們各地都在逐步的建設所謂的軌道建設以及公路建設但是人民在完善的大眾運輸完成之前還是需要用到汽機車作為交通代步工具那汽機車在人民的生活裡面已經成為所謂的生活必需用品而不是以前所認為的奢侈品"},{"start":8490.191,"end":8502.188,"text":"在國外比較少有像台灣這樣子的用貨物稅的方式來增加他的稅付那大部分是用消費稅那現在正值美國關稅扣關的情況所以我們發現了貨物稅對於國際來說也是一種非關稅障礙"},{"start":8507.495,"end":8528.208,"text":"台灣也是汽車零組件的製造冠軍也佔有汽車產業鏈的重要一環但是台灣民眾的購車成本卻相對的高昂更何況是來自於所謂政府的稅賦目前有安全疑慮的有高污染的任何中古老車還繼續在路上行駛這形成了社會的負擔還有交通的隱憂"},{"start":8529.309,"end":8546.267,"text":"所以這次通過的主要是要針對中古的汽機車鈦換鈦舊的部分延長5年那對於鈦舊又換新的部分再加碼延長也就是新購2000cc以下小客車額外提供了5萬塊新購機車再增加2000塊"},{"start":8549.37,"end":8562.894,"text":"讓所有的民眾可以把他的舊車拿去換新但重點是這次的通過第一次朝野共識有重大的進展但是我們也聽到了很多民眾的聲音主要是因為很多民眾其實是買國內組裝的國產休旅車也就是"},{"start":8566.915,"end":8588.568,"text":"俗稱的客貨小客貨的兩用車在這次修法裡面前幾天我們跟國民黨的代表希望能夠放寬到小客貨兩用車但是沒有得到財政部跟民進黨團的支持我們希望在接下去的部分這個部分其實也是國內民眾最需要的部分我們也希望在下一次的修法裡面可以提出來最後我們"},{"start":8593.205,"end":8616.162,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言我們現在登記發言的委員均已發言完畢報告委員會 我們現在進入討論事項第二案因應《國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例》第三條 第六條 第九條條文修正草案本案經第三會期第二十六次會議決定"},{"start":8617.724,"end":8625.094,"text":"晉赴二讀,由院長召集協商。抱怨會本案已經完成協商。請宣讀協商結論。"},{"start":8627.543,"end":8647.191,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間一百四十四年八月二十七日星期三下午二十三十一分至三十三十一分地點紅樓三零二會議室協商主題因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例第三條第六條及第九條條文修正常案協商結論一"},{"start":8648.772,"end":8671.733,"text":"照寫章條文通過第九條條文如後赴二保留條文送請院會處理第三條及第六條條文三寫章通過附帶決議一項如後赴四院會進行處理時廣泛討論由台灣民眾黨黨團推派一人民進黨黨團推派一人國民黨黨團推派一人每人發言時間為三分鐘逐條討論時不再發言"},{"start":8673.795,"end":8693.348,"text":"依序進行各條文黨團版本之處理五 本次協商各黨團提議均列入公報紀錄本案完成三讀後不進行三讀後發言各黨團不提出附議主持人韓國瑜江啟臣協商代表傅庚琦 王鴻維羅志強 柯建銘 吳世耀 陳培宇黃國昌 張啟凱 陳昭芝 宣讀完畢請問院會對以上協商結論有無異議"},{"start":8699.895,"end":8710.819,"text":"沒有意義本案依後續依協商結論進行處理我們現在進行廣泛討論各黨團推派代表之發言首先請王宏威委員發言張祺凱委員請準備"},{"start":8731.68,"end":8746.48,"text":"主席還有我們各位委員大家好現在我們今天討論相關的特別條例國民黨說到做到普發現金一萬元一定要做到"},{"start":8747.577,"end":8767.782,"text":"我們今天討論韌性特別條例事實上我們在立法院7月15號就通過由國民黨黨團所提案的強化經濟韌性的特別條例其中就已經有普發現金而且8月1號總統府也公告了這個特別條例"},{"start":8768.462,"end":8797.562,"text":"所以照理講此時此刻行政院應該送來的不是另外一個修正版的特別條例而應該是特別預算但是因為受到這次美國對等干稅的影響百工百業以及我們的勞工還有農民都會受到衝擊我們為了大局的著想今天我們繼續的去審查行政院所送來的修正案"},{"start":8799.483,"end":8815.46,"text":"針對這次特別條例行政院由原來的5450億提高到5900億在有關於產業資源以及照顧弱勢的部分我們通通予以同意所以全部金額從5450億提高到5700億"},{"start":8821.266,"end":8841.716,"text":"而其中的200億元是針對台電所謂的電網韌性的一個預算的支出200億但是我們也要特別的向所有人民來報告台電早在民國111年開始就有10年的電網韌性的強化計畫"},{"start":8847.039,"end":8869.949,"text":"這個計劃當時預定的是10年可是現在經濟部把它縮短為6年所以一個5645億這麼龐大的強化電網韌性計劃縮短為6年之後一年台電應該執行能量就高達1000億元那麼剛才我們也通過了災後重建特別條例"},{"start":8870.589,"end":8893.907,"text":"也給予了台電109億作為強化電網所以要強化電網現在每年台電有超過1000億的工程要做足以支應所以我們在這邊把整個的預算把它變成5700億我們希望透過這樣的特別條例的修正讓"},{"start":8895.328,"end":8915.7,"text":"我們全民所期待的普發現金能夠盡早的發放那麼我們希望十月份起碼十月底之前就可以開始發放而不管是實體發放或者是線上發放都能夠在十月底開始全民享受到普發現金"},{"start":8919.292,"end":8925.45,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員的發言接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言吳思瑤委員請準備"},{"start":8946.171,"end":8973.328,"text":"為因應美國高關稅的衝擊還有還財移民盡快達成普發現金一萬塊給所有的民眾台灣民眾黨提出三大利多一個排除我們把同意把之前對於特別條例提到的五千四百五十億增加兩百五十億"},{"start":8974.958,"end":9001.183,"text":"總金額調整到5700億三大利多第一個我們支持高關稅受到衝擊的產業勞工跟農業我們都增加了20億的支持跟補助的這個預算而且台灣民眾黨明確要求這增加的200億裡面100億是照顧產業跟企業另外50億照顧農漁業另外50億照顧"},{"start":9004.784,"end":9017.358,"text":"我們的勞工另外第二項利都是我們要求儘速普發一萬塊錢給所有民眾我們明確的要求今天特別條例通過之後一個月內一個月內"},{"start":9019.741,"end":9047.58,"text":"行政院必須儘快提出特別預算而且通過後一個月內馬上把一萬塊發放到大家的手上如果順利應該是在今年的十月底之前一萬塊就要完成還財於民普發到每位民眾的手上去另外第三項的利多是我們增加了要求要照顧弱勢族群的"},{"start":9049.506,"end":9060.218,"text":"40億因為高關稅這次的衝擊除了產業跟農業之外很多的家庭跟民眾特別是弱勢者受到了很大的影響所以我們要求增加40億給照顧弱勢者"},{"start":9063.103,"end":9078.79,"text":"可是另外我們有一個很重要的排除這次行政院竟然借私還魂把去年被我們立法院三讀砍掉的台電撥補一千億又放了兩千億進這次的特別條例經過我們查證兩百億進來經過我們查證"},{"start":9083.052,"end":9098.932,"text":"事實上政府在民國111年的時候就有通過一個10年的5645億元的強化電網韌性建設計畫平均一年要用掉要用500多億"},{"start":9101.127,"end":9129.795,"text":"目前是在執行當中而且我們剛剛通過的風災的這整個復建重建跟復原的這個裡面也有一筆102億的電網強化強化這個費用所以我們認為這200億一方面是借私還文一方面已經有重複了而且台電到目前沒有提出任何比較具體的一個計畫所以我們要求把台電這200億把它排除更重要的透過這次的整個增加金額的增加之後我們要照顧"},{"start":9146.084,"end":9147.466,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員發言接下來我們請吳思瑤委員請發言"},{"start":9154.564,"end":9178.741,"text":"主席各位同仁這是史上立法院最長的研會但是朝野合作能夠在今天通過任性特別條例的修正案以及來通過稍後的追加預算以及風災特別預算我想這都讓我們看到只要朝野齊心只要民生優先國會可以撥亂反正"},{"start":9179.962,"end":9193.639,"text":"現在要處理的任性特別條例的修正案停產業顧民生就弱勢加速的發現金這是整個行政院法案的核心而讓違憲成為核限"},{"start":9196.163,"end":9212.504,"text":"導正行政立法過去長期權力分立原則被混亂的這種亂象也是行政部門負責任來透過特別條例的修正案讓違憲成為合憲的重要作為"},{"start":9213.746,"end":9234.983,"text":"所以5900億的總額是行政部門加碼挺弱勢加速發現金的版本只是非常遺憾在野黨的委員看到台電就開請逢台電閉砍已經成為這一屆立法院審議預算的基本配備"},{"start":9236.204,"end":9252.733,"text":"我要再次說藍白砍掉的200億台電電網韌性優化的預算這是讓台灣的產業發展被犧牲台電有原罪為什麼要產業來背鍋"},{"start":9255.094,"end":9282.172,"text":"我要請在場來自全台灣各地的立委聽好了這一次台電的200億強化電力系統的預算是要針對全台灣的產業園區以及工業區的電力強化來進行擴建雙北有本席的北市科有五股樹林工業區要受惠桃園區有盧竹龍潭工業區需要強化電網"},{"start":9283.573,"end":9312.316,"text":"苗栗的銅鑼工業區台中的大理檀子工業區彰化的彰濱中科工業區乃至於高雄的人武大發工業區以及花蓮的花蓮產業園區等等都需要這一筆珍貴的200億台電的預算台商回流外商投資台灣產業發展就要電本席來自台北市"},{"start":9313.337,"end":9336.966,"text":"北市科我們期待輝達能夠進駐我們期待北市科成為北台灣科技狼帶最後一塊拼圖但是藍白的立委執意刪除200億的台電預算可能就成了北市科發展的絆腳石可能成了輝達難以落腳台北的絆腳石請大家三思再三思"},{"start":9340.269,"end":9364.965,"text":"謝謝吳世瑤委員的發言報告委員會我們現在進行逐條討論本案僅宣讀院會所收各黨團版本其餘提案內容均列入公報記錄各黨團版本進行表決時依送案先後進行表決如果其中有一案通過我們不再處理其他案現在進行保留條文第三條 請宣讀"},{"start":9366.331,"end":9393.801,"text":"民進黨黨團修正動議第三條本條例鎖定強化經濟 社會 民眾消費及國土安全任性措施之項目如下一 提供企業金融支持二 提升產業競爭力三 協助企業開拓多元市場四 支持勞工安定就業五 強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場六 強化高等教育人才培育七 一助全民健康保險基金及勞工保險基金"},{"start":9394.341,"end":9419.17,"text":"八 加強照顧弱勢族群及提供關外服務九 強化國土防衛能量十 提升資通作業環境及設備十一 發放現金每人新台幣一萬元強化民眾消費潤性 擴大內需 提振經濟效益十二 強化電力系統台灣民眾黨黨團 國民黨黨團共同所提修正動議第三條不予修正 宣讀完畢"},{"start":9422.148,"end":9429.24,"text":"我們現在進行處理開始按鈴七分鐘請議事人員分發表決卡開始按鈴"},{"start":9866.601,"end":9890.823,"text":"好 抱怨會是不是每位委員都有拿到表決卡好 都有拿到 我們現在開始進行表決我們現在表決民進黨黨團修正動議條文現在有民進黨要求記名表決我們記名表決贊成民進黨黨團修正動議條文請按贊成 反對 請按反對時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":9966.155,"end":9987.119,"text":"好 報告委員會報告表決結果我們出席委員有108位贊成50位反對58位贊成者少數民進黨黨團修正動議條文不通過我們現在進行表決台灣民眾黨團 國民黨黨團所提"},{"start":9990,"end":10005.874,"text":"共同修正動議維持現行條文不予修正現在有民進黨團台灣民眾黨團要求記名表決贊成 請按贊成反對 請按反對時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":10076.115,"end":10077.697,"text":"我們現在進行第六條請宣讀"},{"start":10096.587,"end":10117.31,"text":"民進黨黨團修正動議第六條本條例所需經費上限為新台幣5911元得視國際形勢變化分期編列特別預算其預算編制與執行不受預算法第23條第62條及第63條未定制限制前項所需經費來源得以遺用以前年度稅金剩餘或舉借債務之印"},{"start":10118.371,"end":10144.743,"text":"其每年度舉借債務之額度不受《公共債務法》第五條第七項規定之限制中央政府總預算及特別預算與本條例實行期間之舉債額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額度合計數之百分之十五本條例實行期間中央政府所舉借之一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數應依《公共債務法》第五條第一項規定辦理"},{"start":10146.924,"end":10161.536,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團 國民黨黨團共同所提修正動議第六條本條例所需經費上限為新台幣五千七百億元得視國際情勢變化分期編列特別預算其預算編制與執行不受預算法第23條"},{"start":10162.617,"end":10186.18,"text":"第62條及第63條規定之限制其項所需經費來源得以營用以前年度稅計剩餘或舉借債務之印及每年度舉借債務之額度不受公共債務法第5條第7項規定之限制中央政府總預算及特別預算與本條例實行期間之舉債額度和計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算"},{"start":10187.721,"end":10203.987,"text":"稅出總額度合計數值15%本條例實行期間中央政府所舉接之一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數應依《公共債務法》第五條第一項規定辦理本條例編列預算至中央各部會"},{"start":10205.227,"end":10222.916,"text":"應將預算時工作計畫實施內容概述及預計實施進度按計送立法院備償並應設置資訊網站專區提供密語搜尋等以理解時完成資訊主動按計定期公開工作計畫實施內容及預算執行進度宣讀完畢"},{"start":10229.082,"end":10246.66,"text":"現在我們進行表決民進黨黨團再修正動議條文現有民進黨黨團要求記名表決贊成民進黨黨團修正動議條文請按贊成反對請按反對時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":10318.678,"end":10342.938,"text":"歡迎各位報告表決結果在場為108位贊成50位反對58位贊成則少數民進黨黨團修正動議條文不通過我們現在進行表決台灣民眾黨團國民黨黨團所提共同的修正動議條文現在有民進黨團台灣民眾黨黨團要求記名表決我們現在記名表決贊成請按贊成反對請按反對時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":10416.328,"end":10432.674,"text":"法院會報告表決結果在場為108位贊成58位反對50位贊成者多數第六條照台灣民眾黨團國民黨團共同所提修正動議條文通過請宣讀第九條"},{"start":10434.229,"end":10459.32,"text":"第九條本條例及其特別預算實行期間自中華民國一百十四年三月十二日起至一百十六年十二月三十一日至第三條第十一款應於依本條例編列之特別預算公佈後一個月內開始執行發放作業並於七個月內發放完畢行政院應於本條例宣效後一個月內將依本條例編列之特別預算案送交立法院審議"},{"start":10460.26,"end":10471.304,"text":"本條例及其特別預算施行期間欠滿得經立法院同意延長之宣讀完畢照協商條文通過報院會我們全案已經經過二讀現在由民進黨黨團國民黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有無異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":10481.482,"end":10504.006,"text":"第六條本條例所需經費上限為新台幣五千七百億元得視國際情勢變化分期編列特別預算其預算編制與執行不受預算法第23條 第62條及第63條規定之限制前項所需經費來源得以移用以前年度稅金剩餘或舉借債務之印及每年度舉借債務之額度"},{"start":10504.386,"end":10528.498,"text":"不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定之限制中央政府總預算及特別預算與本條例實行期間之舉債額度和計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算最初總額度和計數之15%本條例實行期間中央政府所舉接之一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數應依公共債務法第五條第一項規定辦理"},{"start":10530.339,"end":10551.3,"text":"本條利益編列預算之中央各部會應將預算之工作計劃實施內容概述及預計實施進度按禁送立法院備查並應設置資訊網站專區提供便於搜尋得以理解之完整資訊主動按記定請公開工作計劃實施內容及預算執行進度"},{"start":10552.381,"end":10577.774,"text":"第九條本條例及其特別預算施行期間自中華民國一百十四年三月十二日起至一百十六年十二月三十一日至第三條第十一款應於依本條例編列之特別預算公佈後一個月內開始執行發放作業並於七個月內發放完畢行政院應於本條例宣銷後一個月內將依本條例編列之特別預算"},{"start":10578.354,"end":10607.312,"text":"案送交立法院審議本條例及其特別預算施行期間解門得經立法院同意延長之宣讀完畢報告院會 我們三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在做以下決議因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例第六條及第九條條文修正通過"},{"start":10609.535,"end":10611.297,"text":"我們繼續處理黨團協商通過之附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":10618.439,"end":10641.711,"text":"黨團協商通過附帶決議本次將條例經費上限至新台幣5450億元增加250億元提高至新台幣5700億元預留200億元用於強化對產業之支持另增列40億元以加強對弱勢族群之照顧及關懷服務要求主管機關依據本特別條例編列特別預算案時"},{"start":10643.604,"end":10662.232,"text":"應確保所預留資200億元中不低於50億元用於勞工安定就業措施另不低於50億元用於農業與產業發展支持宣讀完畢報案院會我們依照協商結論我們就照案通過"},{"start":10665.782,"end":10683.446,"text":"歡迎回因為追加預算案協商宣讀本現在正在整理中我們一定要等到整理完畢之後我們才能繼續開會大約約估時間在12點半左右我們現在休息"},{"start":14383.547,"end":14391.592,"text":"好 報告院會 我們現在繼續開會進行討論事項第一案一百一十年度中央政府總預算追加預算案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":14392.608,"end":14415.244,"text":"本院財政委員會於114年8月28日會同內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、交通、司法及法治、社會福利及衛生環境委員會舉行聯席會議進行審查由財政委員會賴兆吉委員事保擔任主席邀請行政院主席總處陳主席長、淑資等機關首長列行說明並答獲委員之勳"},{"start":14416.284,"end":14438.582,"text":"本案須交由黨團協商院會討論本案時由財政委員會賴教級委員世保補充說明宣讀完畢我們請賴世保召集委員補充說明沒有補充說明保育院會我們本案經過審查會決議須交由黨團協商現在本案已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論立法院黨團協商結論時間114年"},{"start":14442.399,"end":14468.124,"text":"8月28日星期四下午8時地點紅樓302會議室協商主題114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案協商結論一協商通過內容含處理原則及保留部分如後付於照聯席會議審查結果通過由財政委員會整理送各黨團確認後於8月29日星期五上午8時30分前送議事處二"},{"start":14469.784,"end":14491.571,"text":"本案於院會進行處理時非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過保留部分均暫保留保留部分進行處理前由台灣民眾黨黨團推派一人民進黨黨團推派一人國民黨黨團推派一人依上該黨團順序發言免得發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢後各保留提案均不再發言"},{"start":14492.691,"end":14519.226,"text":"即開始進行保留部分之表決本案經二讀之內容請主席總處與財政委員會核對刪減項目及金額公願會進行三讀本案完成三讀後不進行三讀後發言各黨團同意不提出複議本次協商各項提議均予以刊登公報記錄主持人韓國瑜協商代表傅坤吉 黃國昌 柯建銘 王宏維張祺凱 王逸川 吳世堯"},{"start":14521.907,"end":14534.084,"text":"羅志強 陳昭芝 陳培雲宣讀完畢請問院會對以上協商結論有異議沒有異議本案及協商結論進行處理114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案請宣讀決定事項"},{"start":14536.024,"end":14565.156,"text":"中央政府一百十四年度中央政府總預算追加預算案之處理原則一 協商順序為先行討論通案決議在依審查報告所列款項募結提案順序討論二 通案提案刪減科目相同者媒體政策及業務宣導經費一併處理倘如該通案刪減提案通過後續各機關是媒體政策及業務宣導經費刪減提案除指定刪減提案原則尚不再處理"},{"start":14566.116,"end":14582.952,"text":"各該提案刪減總數加計通案刪減科目媒體政策及業務宣導經費之總刪減金額不得超過該主管或機關編列之追加預算案數三對於各機關之統一計畫目或截之刪減提案原則一併處理統一計畫刪減數以最高者為準"},{"start":14585.074,"end":14610.145,"text":"另對統一主管別或機關別之刪減提案原則並處理並以刪減數以最高者為準除另有宣告外原則不累加計算其中以主管別檢列預算書之提案如通過除指定項目外原則上科目自行調整四 對各機關統一計畫募獲截之凍結預算提案其凍結金額或比例原則上不超過該計畫追加預算數"},{"start":14611.966,"end":14639.474,"text":"扣除上述第二及第三點之總刪減金額宣讀完畢決定事項部分我們照協商結論通過請宣讀通商事項通商事項各機關通案刪減媒體專策及業務宣導經費共四億二千九百零六萬六千元扣除聯席會審查及朝野黨團協商刪減數後之餘額請行政院主計總署統籌調配檢列宣讀完畢"},{"start":14640.373,"end":14665.266,"text":"通商事項部分我們照協商結論通過我們依稅出預算部分請宣讀通案決議審查結果依稅出預算部分本項提案二案保留送優惠處理保留案號12協商結論通案決議提案三案保留送優惠處理案號123宣讀完畢我們依保留請宣讀第一款"},{"start":14666.395,"end":14684.485,"text":"審查監獲第一款總統府主管第一項總統府改列為1408萬8千元本項提案一案保留送院會處理保留N號森第二項國家安全會議改列為711萬元第三項國史館第四項國史館台灣文獻館均照列"},{"start":14685.987,"end":14696.157,"text":"協商結論第一款總統府主管改列為1824萬6千元科目自行調整其餘均照列宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第二款"},{"start":14698.564,"end":14722.962,"text":"寫商結果第二款寫商結論審查結果第二款行政院主管第一項行政院改例為六千一百七十幾萬四千元本項提案一案保留送院會處理保留案號七本項通過決議一項第二項主席總署照列本項通過決議一項第三項人事行政總署第四項公務人力發展學院均照列"},{"start":14723.502,"end":14749.6,"text":"第五項國立故宮博物院 照列本項通過決議一項第六項國家發展委員會 照列本項通過決議一項第七項檔案管理局 照列第八項原住民組委員會改列為24億5273萬6千元第九項原住民組文化發展中心第十項各家委員會及所屬均照列第十一項中央選舉委員會及所屬照列本項第二二案保留送運會處理"},{"start":14750.461,"end":14771.786,"text":"保留案號十八十九第十二項 核能安全委員會及所屬第十三項 公平交易委員會第十四項 國家通訊傳播委員會均照列第十五項 大陸委員會改令為四千七百六十七萬七千元第十六項 國家運輸安全調查委員會第十七項 不當黨產處理委員會第十八項 公共工程委員會均照列"},{"start":14773.5,"end":14783.104,"text":"協商結論第二款行政院主管原列45億7396萬3千元結列時方案領570萬9千元包括第一項行政院結列6650萬8千元其中含聯席會結列之特別費187萬9千元第四目聯合服務業務2556萬8千元另結列第一目一般行政270萬7千元"},{"start":14795.808,"end":14823.369,"text":"第二幕 施政及法治業務957萬6千元第三幕 施政推展聯繫300萬元第九幕 新聞傳播業務773萬7千元第二項 主計總處檢列194萬2千元第三項 人事行政總處檢列第二幕人事行政政策規劃執行及發展1000萬元第十一項 中央選舉委員會及所屬檢列第二幕 選舉業務15億4324萬2千元第十五項 道路委員會檢列第四幕"},{"start":14823.869,"end":14841.154,"text":"法徵義務4940萬元改例為27億6825萬4千元第八項原住民組委員會第七幕促進原住民組經濟事業原住民保留地進發補償23億6825萬4千元其餘科目自行調整第十四項國家通訊傳播委員會新增決議一項第十五項大陸委員會新增決議一項"},{"start":14850.916,"end":14870.542,"text":"宣讀完畢第三款立法院主管第一項立法院照列本項通過決議上宣讀完畢審查結果第四款司法院主管改列為三千九百八十四萬七千元第一項司法院本項通過決議上"},{"start":14876.685,"end":14894.275,"text":"協商結論第四款司法院主管第一項司法院改令為一百五十七萬六千元宣讀完畢在協商結論通過請宣讀第五款第五款考試院主管改令為三百零四萬元第四項公務人員保障季培訓委員會本項通過決議項宣讀完畢在審查會議見通過請宣讀第六款"},{"start":14897.267,"end":14917.146,"text":"第六款監察院主管第一項監察院第二項審計部第三項審計部台北市審計處第四項審計部新北市審計處第五項審計部桃園市審計處第六項審計部台中市審計處第七項審計部台南市審計處第八項審計部高雄市審計處均照列宣讀完畢照審查會意見通過請宣讀第七款"},{"start":14917.905,"end":14937.05,"text":"審查結果第七款內政部主管第一項內政部改令為四億三千六百一十三萬三千元本項提案一案保留送院會處理保留案號二十八本項通過決議一項第二項國土管理署及所屬改令為六億九千五百三十七萬三千元本項通過決議五項"},{"start":14939.37,"end":14963.89,"text":"第三項警政署級所屬改列為六億七千二零六十二萬六千元本項通過決議一項第四項中央警察大學照列第五項消防署級所屬照列本項通過決議一項第六項國家公園署級所屬照列本項通過決議一項第七項移民署改列為八千八百五十四萬八千元第八項建築研究所第九項空中勤務總隊均照列"},{"start":14965.613,"end":14984.431,"text":"協商結論第七款內政部主管改令為十七億元科目自行調整其餘均照列第一項內政部新增決議一項第三項警政處級所屬新增決議一項宣讀完畢照協商條文通過照協商結論通過請宣讀第八款"},{"start":14985.348,"end":15011.268,"text":"審查結果第八款外交部主管第一項外交部改令為十八億零八百二十八萬九千元本項提案也按保留送優惠處理保留二號四十五第二項領事事務局第三項外交及國際事務學院均照列協商結論第八款外交部主管改令為五億六千萬八千元第一項外交部新增權一項宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第九款"},{"start":15013.866,"end":15042.536,"text":"協商結論第九款國防部主管第一項國防部照列本項提案九案保留送運會處理保留案號474849505152535455第二項國防部所屬照列協商結論第九款國防部主管第一項國防部改令為五千一百六十一萬五千元第二項國防部所屬改令為六十二億二千九百二十七萬二千元宣讀完畢在協商結論通過請宣讀第十款"},{"start":15043.781,"end":15064.526,"text":"審查結果第十款財政部主管第一項財政部第二項國庫署第三項複稅署第四項台北國稅局第五項高雄國稅局第六項北區國稅局及所署第七項中區國稅局及所署第八項南區國稅局及所署第九項公務署及所署第十項國有財產署及所署第十一項財政資訊中心"},{"start":15065.186,"end":15068.209,"text":"主保留部分外其餘照協商結論通過請宣讀第11款"},{"start":15088.522,"end":15104.587,"text":"審查結果第十一款教育部主管改令為三千一百一十七萬九千元協商結論第十一款教育部主管改令為一千七百九十七萬七千元科目自行調整新增決議以上宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第十二團"},{"start":15105.337,"end":15120.162,"text":"審查結果第十二款房屋部主管 改定為二千六百零一萬一千元審查結論第十二款房屋部主管 改定為二千零一萬一千元 宣讀完畢在協商結論通過 請宣讀第十三款"},{"start":15120.495,"end":15145.82,"text":"第十三款經濟部主管第一項經濟部 照列本項通過決議一項第二項產業發展署改列為六億二千四百七十萬九千元本項通過決議一項第三項國際貿易署 照列第四項標準經驗局及所署 照列本項通過決議一項第五項智慧財產局 照列第六項水利署及所署 照列本項通過決議二項第七項商業發展署 照列本項通過決議一項"},{"start":15149.221,"end":15168.49,"text":"第八項中小及新創企業署第九項產業園區管理局及所屬第十項地質調查及礦業管理中心均照列第十一項能源署照列本項通過決議一項協商結論第十三款經濟部主管第一項經濟部新增決議二項"},{"start":15170.191,"end":15183.566,"text":"第二項產業發展署新增權益一項第三項國際貿易署改令為一百六十一萬四千元第十一項能源署新增權益一項宣讀完畢在協商結論通過請宣讀第十四款"},{"start":15184.458,"end":15208.245,"text":"審查結果第十四款交通部主管第一項交通部改列為零元本項通過權益項第二項民用航空局改列為零元第三項中央氣象署改列為零元第四項觀光署及所署照列第五項運輸研究所改列為零元第六項公路局及所署第七項鐵道局及所署改列為零元第八項航港局"},{"start":15209.005,"end":15228.339,"text":"照列 審查結論第十四款交通部主管 改例為一千零九十三萬二千元 科目自行調整 宣讀完畢照協商結論通過 請宣讀第十五款審查經過第十五款勞動部主管 改例為三千三百九十四萬八千元 第一項勞動部本項通過決議一項"},{"start":15230.263,"end":15239.377,"text":"協商結論第十五款勞動部主管第一項勞動部改令為二千一百八十五萬三千元宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第十六款"},{"start":15240.109,"end":15267.775,"text":"寫商結果審查結果第十六款農業部主管改例為九億八千六百三十萬六千元第二項林業及自然保育署其所屬本項通過決議二項第三項農村發展及水土保持署其所屬本項通過決議二項第二十四項農田水利署本項通過決議二項寫商結論第十六款農業部主管新增決議一項宣讀完畢這寫商結論通過請宣讀第十七款"},{"start":15268.406,"end":15296.273,"text":"審查結果第十幾款衛生福利部主管第一項衛生福利部照列本項通過決議二項第二項疾病管制署照列本項通過決議四項第三項食品藥物管理署照列本項通過決議一項第四項中央其他保險署照列本項通過決議一項第五項國民健康署照列第六項社會及家庭署照列本項通過決議一項第七項國家中藥研究所照列"},{"start":15297.533,"end":15325.68,"text":"協商結論第十七款衛生福利部主管改列為三億零四百三十二萬元宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第十八款審查經過第十八款環境部主管第一項環境部第二項氣候邊遷署第三項資源循環署第四項化學物質管理署第五項環境管理署第六項國家環境研究院均照列第十八款環境部主管第一項環境部改列為三千六百四十萬八千元宣讀完畢"},{"start":15327.077,"end":15328.659,"text":"請宣讀 照協商結論通過 請宣讀第19款"},{"start":15341.755,"end":15361.662,"text":"第二項文化資產局照列第三項影視及流行音樂產業局照列本項通過決議一項第四項國立傳統藝術中心第五項國立台灣美術館及所屬均照列第六項國立台灣工藝研究發展中心照列本項通過決議一項第七項國立台灣博物館照列本項通過決議一項"},{"start":15362.882,"end":15388.688,"text":"第八項鼓勵臺灣實現文化博物館照列第九項國家人權博物館照列本項通過決議一項第十項鼓勵臺灣歷史博物館照列本項通過決議一項第十一項鼓勵臺灣文學館照列本項通過決議一項協商結論第十九款文化部主管提案無案保留送運會處理案號7980-818283第一項文化部提案三案保留送運會處理案號848586宣讀完畢"},{"start":15392.389,"end":15416.461,"text":"除保留部分外其餘照協商結論通過請宣讀第二十款協商審查結果第二十款數位發展部主管第一項數位發展部改令為五億七千零五十五萬八千元本項通過決議一項第二項自動安全署照列第三項數位產業署改令為五億"},{"start":15419.382,"end":15446.051,"text":"零五百六十四萬四千元協商結論第20款數位發展部主管改令為九億四千四百七十九萬七千元第一項數位發展部改令為六億二千一百六十四萬四千元給予照列新增權益一項宣讀完畢照協商結論通過請宣讀第21款第21款球務委員會主管第一項球務委員會照列宣讀完畢審查會議意見通過請宣讀第22款"},{"start":15448.894,"end":15450.235,"text":"在協商結論通過 請宣讀第二十三款"},{"start":15473.929,"end":15491.364,"text":"審查結果第23款金融監督管理委員會主管第一項金融監督管理委員會第二項銀行局第三項證券期貨局第四項保險局第五項警察局均照列第23款金融監督管理委員會主管改例為250萬元宣讀完畢照審算結論通過請宣讀第24款"},{"start":15494.528,"end":15495.889,"text":"在協商結論通過 請宣讀第25款"},{"start":15518.891,"end":15528.41,"text":"第二十五款国军退职官兵辅导委员会主管第一项国军退职官兵辅导委员会教练宣读完毕照审查会意见通过请宣读第二十六款"},{"start":15528.966,"end":15556.875,"text":"審查結果第26款直轄市及縣市政府第一項直轄市及縣市一般性補助款照列有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整協商結論第26款直轄市及縣市政府改例為636億0554萬6千元新增權益以上有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整宣讀完畢做協商結論通過請宣讀二"},{"start":15559.761,"end":15571.628,"text":"融資財源調度部分選擇結果二 融資財源調度部分原列選出追加預算數878億4136萬9千元 截列數1億4251萬6千元改令為863億089萬3千元 爭議原預算收支剩餘數予以彌平"},{"start":15581.393,"end":15602.205,"text":"协商结论融资产源调度部分原列最初追加预算数878亿4136万9千元减列56亿0178万8千元改列822亿3958万1千元将以原预算收支剩余数于弥平其余照联席会审查结果通过"},{"start":15602.705,"end":15628.167,"text":"宣讀完畢照協商結論通過抱怨會我們現在繼續處理保留部分依照協商結論保留部分進行處理之前由臺灣民眾黨團推派一位民進黨黨團推派一位國民黨黨團推派一位依上開黨團順序發言每人發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢之後各保留提案均不再發言"},{"start":15628.847,"end":15640.813,"text":"及開始進行保留部分之表決我們現在進行各黨派黨團推派之代表發言首先請陳培瑜委員發言賴世保委員請準備"},{"start":15648.854,"end":15672.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席首先我要針對昨天晚上各黨團進行的黨團協商表示感謝謝謝國民黨團 民眾黨團當然還有民進黨團當然還有最辛苦的韓國瑜院長主席我們一起討論關於追加預算但是我要提到比較遺憾的部分是等一下在表決的時候文化部所提出的追加預算將會被全數刪除"},{"start":15673.88,"end":15693.551,"text":"不予同意增列我想要提醒大家到底我們昨天爭執的點是什麼昨天歐小林委員一直說這是給予所謂文化獎補助的不支持昨天我們還受到善效同時還提到所謂公視提到所謂黑潮我想要告訴大家事實上在這些預算當中"},{"start":15693.971,"end":15712.24,"text":"除了翁小玲委員所說之外還有非常多是關於國家的場館他們的基本維持業務的費用都會被全部刪除包含國立台灣美術館包含國立傳統藝術中心包含國立台灣工藝研究中心國立台灣博物館"},{"start":15713.28,"end":15736.489,"text":"還有國立台灣史前文化博物館國家人權博物館國立台灣歷史博物館國立台灣文學館我要講的是在這些文化部所屬的機關構底下的博物館文學館都是營運著重要的台灣文化文學還有文史但是他們的基本維護費維運費都沒有辦法給予支持我"},{"start":15737.009,"end":15751.756,"text":"真的很想要拜托国民党委员民众党委员等一下我们还有表决的机会如果你们愿意支持地方的场馆我想等一下我们都还有机会同时我要提到昨天翁晓琳委员当然还有包含王洪威委员"},{"start":15752.236,"end":15781.536,"text":"所指教的關於公視的部分關於中央社的部分這裡面還有重要的人事維護人事費我想要講的是中央社長期以來代表台灣不論是在國民黨執政時期或是民進黨執政時期始終在海外代表台灣對全世界發聲我不知道如果相關人事費都受到影響那麼我們跟國際友人之間的連結將要如何維繫此外我還要談到關於文化幣"},{"start":15782.216,"end":15810.031,"text":"在近年推出文化幣其實受到非常多青年學子的歡迎而且同時我們從過去到22歲我們現在要往下延伸到更小年紀的青少年都可以享受文化幣不管是買書看表演欣賞所有的藝術演出這是非常重要的國民文化素養的基礎但是在相關預算當中也沒有辦法受到在野黨團的支持因此我要再次拜託再次懇請"},{"start":15811.252,"end":15828.332,"text":"等一下再表決的時候我們真的還有最後的機會一起來支持國家重要的文化預算以上 謝謝謝謝陳培宇委員的發言接下來我們請賴思寶委員發言黃國昌委員請準備"},{"start":15846.453,"end":15872.976,"text":"謝謝院長 一起各位先進從昨天我主持聯席會一大早整個來講有70幾位的委員發言之後到後來韓院長非常辛苦的協商到今天的凌晨超過1點的時間實在要給韓院長一個很大的敬意"},{"start":15874.571,"end":15898.259,"text":"我們看到這一次的追加預算其實認真說起來它的正當性是不夠的如果你要認真看裡面的錢大概就是有地方補助款636億要給軍人家籍60億要給進房補償23點多億的24億要給之外其他的正當性都非常不夠畢竟追加預算"},{"start":15899.332,"end":15913.451,"text":"我們的預算法其實有條定人金書叫重大事部請問我們現在有重大事故嗎有重大事故嗎我們等一下要表決兩個案子第一個案子就是媒體的廣信的費用他要追加4.29億"},{"start":15915.814,"end":15930.431,"text":"你可以看得到他現在已經有7點原來就已經有好多錢在用現在又增加4.29億這4.29億在三個月的時間其實花錢都很辛苦了"},{"start":15930.991,"end":15951.203,"text":"所以一方面他用這個錢來打在野黨另一方面用這個錢來洗腦人民的一個洗腦的動作所以等於用人民的錢洗人民的腦這個錢就用這個地方所以4.29億我們主張全部刪掉另外一部分剛才的委員提到了"},{"start":15952.023,"end":15977.41,"text":"文化部的部分各位我們數字會說話114年的文化部的預算是高達279億比去年多了19億之多比去年多19億喔補助的團體藝文團體補助團體從9億提高到23億所以補助團體已經增加了14億各位這時候你說不能刪嗎"},{"start":15979.008,"end":16005.07,"text":"結果昨天在協商的時候文化部長非常的強硬說一毛錢都不能刪我們原來都妥協啦原來妥協就是刪一部分一部分讓他通過部長也不同意 部長就是全要不會 那我們就看正當性在哪裡漁法它不是重大事故另外一部分它錢已經夠多了已經比去年增加19億之多而且"},{"start":16006.406,"end":16029.009,"text":"補助的方面來講的話也增加14億多因此呢這個錢既然是部長都不要我們就來表決所以等一下我們就請大家我們一起的來表決這兩個案子我們希望這兩個案子都能夠都能夠這個按照要在黨的意思啊能夠讓他結束結束的刪掉謝謝"},{"start":16032.458,"end":16053.678,"text":"謝謝賴世寶委員發言,接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言。院長、本院委員,還有全國的同胞們,"},{"start":16055.48,"end":16070.21,"text":"2025年中央政府總預算在上一次國會三讀審查通過完了以後所審定的金額兩兆九千兩百五十億這原本已是中華民國史上最高的預算在這一次"},{"start":16071.263,"end":16092.531,"text":"行政院又送來追加預算878億總數如果沒有經過任何的刪減的話將破3兆這不僅僅是史上最高而且是第一次超過3兆再創新高但是這次追加預算在法制面上面最大的問題是什麼"},{"start":16093.635,"end":16110.349,"text":"追加預算依照預算法的規定必須要有法定的適由然而這一次行政院送到本院來的追加預算卻根本不符合預算法79條第三款的規定在質詢的時候"},{"start":16112.25,"end":16136.711,"text":"我質詢法務部部長甚至檢察中長都沒有辦法說明出來為什麼他會符合預算法79條第三款的規定有有甚者本院的預算中心清楚的分析了以後發現行政院竟然是把在上一次審查的時候遭到國會已經刪除的預算"},{"start":16137.512,"end":16148.728,"text":"透過複製貼上的方式想要借勢還魂再編一次完全是本院對於預算審查與侮辱對於這樣子"},{"start":16151.984,"end":16174.301,"text":"違法 濫權 傲慢的行政院所編的追加預算本院的同仁 不分黨派我們還是本於最大的善意跟耐心來進行審查甚至在這次追加預算當中引起最大爭議的就是636億的地方補助款"},{"start":16175.936,"end":16199.95,"text":"我們在審查2025年中央政府總預算的時候在通刪的事項上面清楚的表明刪除的是中央政府及其所屬機關結果沒有想到我們的行政院自己該刪的預算不刪竟然把腦袋動到地方政府的頭上依照法制本來是不應該讓它過的"},{"start":16201.601,"end":16210.941,"text":"但是當我們的行政院院長公然幹起擄人勒鼠這樣的行為的時候我們沒有辦法"},{"start":16212.102,"end":16233.456,"text":"只有先付贖金把肉票救出來但是這樣子違法編列預算的方式相關的責任我們還是會追究這一次總預算的審查給了行政院史上最多的錢我相信所有台灣人民的心聲就是告訴左榮泰好好做事 謝謝"},{"start":16235.658,"end":16236.058,"text":"第一案 國民黨黨團"},{"start":16257.304,"end":16280.461,"text":"民進黨黨團 臺灣民眾黨黨團各黨團共同所提提案除外交部國際傳播沒宣費同意追加27600千元科目自行調整其餘全部刪除原解列該項預算401466千元宣讀完畢請問院會對以上三個黨團共同所提的更正提有意義"},{"start":16281.618,"end":16302.016,"text":"没有异议我们就照案通过因为方才有关媒体政策及业务宣导费第123案合并处理之共同提议所以保留第55案有关财政部没宣案我们就不再进行处理我们现在请宣读第79案"},{"start":16303.769,"end":16305.931,"text":"我們現在開始進行表決案例七分鐘現在開始案例"},{"start":16747.503,"end":16766.403,"text":"好 報告院會我們按鈴七分鐘時間已到我們現在開始針對第79案要進行表決現在有民進黨黨團要求記名表決贊成 請按贊成反對 請按反對時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":16837.58,"end":16845.833,"text":"抱怨會報告表決結果在場為107位贊成57位反對50位贊成者多數本案通過"},{"start":16848.614,"end":16869.555,"text":"因為方才通過第79案文化部主管追加預算全數刪除所以保留至第80至85案有關簡列及凍結部分文化部主管追加預算之提案含沒宣費我們就不再進行處理請宣讀第86案"},{"start":16870.663,"end":16886.902,"text":"第86案 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案提案要求文化部就相關補助經費是否涉及不當政治性活動酬庸獨立特定政治立場創作人以及違反行政專利等情向教育及文化委員會提出專案報告宣言完畢"},{"start":16888.959,"end":16901.433,"text":"好 我們現在進行表決現在有民進黨團 臺灣民眾黨黨團要求記名表決我們記名表決 請按贊成 反對按反對時間一分鐘 現在開始"},{"start":16975.35,"end":16997.321,"text":"歡迎回報告表決結果在場為108位贊成 58位反對 50位我們現在贊成者多數本案通過拜會追加預算公開會議部分已經處理告一段落現在我們休息三分鐘之後要改開秘密會議處理機密預算部分我們現在休息三分鐘"},{"start":17202.957,"end":17228.516,"text":"我們現在繼續開會114年度中央政府總預算追加部機密預算部分向各位委員報告委員如果需要機密預算資料請向主席台右側工作人員簽名處領取並於秘密會議結束時繳回在此提醒與會人員請不要在秘密會議中錄影 錄音 攝影現在請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":17231.972,"end":17232.012,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":17397.574,"end":17419.752,"text":"好 報告委員會我們繼續開會114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案全案經過二讀現有民進黨黨團體繼續進行三讀請委員會有議沒有議我們請宣讀經過二讀之內容中華民國114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案依最初部分原列878億4136萬9千元審議結果計減列59億0263萬7千元最初追加總額佔改列"},{"start":17428.539,"end":17455.94,"text":"819亿3873万2千元审议通过后再由行政院主席总处依照各款项目分别调整其列二 融资产源调度部分原列税出追加预算数878亿4136万9千元减利59亿0263万7千元改例为819亿3873万2千元将以原预算收支剩余数予以弥评宣读完毕"},{"start":17457.776,"end":17474.675,"text":"報告院會三讀內容已經宣讀完畢請問院會有無文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在做以下決議114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案照審查報告修正通過"},{"start":17477.833,"end":17484.28,"text":"抱怨會一百一四年度中央政府總預算追加預算案已經處理完畢下午三點繼續開會處理後續討論事項現在休息"},{"start":23384.581,"end":23392.45,"text":"我們現在繼續開會進行討論事項第五案外國專業人才延攬及僱傭法修正草案請宣讀審查報告"},{"start":23393.362,"end":23415.251,"text":"本院經濟社會福利及衛生環境教育及文化三委員會於114年6月18日 114年6月30日分別舉行聯席會議進行審查由召集委員蔡英宇擔任主席匯充邀請國家發展委員會主任委員劉慶清 金靜牧政務次長姜文若就行政院及本院委員提案提出說明並答覆委員質詢"},{"start":23416.391,"end":23443.444,"text":"另邀請當路委員會等相關機關派員列寫背詢與會員於聽取說明及詢答後對法案進行逐條審查及責密討論並將全案併案審查完略拟取審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論本案時由經濟委員會召集委員蔡易瑜補充說明並通過附帶決議六項宣讀完畢請蔡易瑜委員召集委員補充說明沒有補充說明"},{"start":23444.444,"end":23450.951,"text":"本案基因審查會決議須交由黨團協商另有外國專業人才野蘭及僱傭法部分修正"},{"start":23451.647,"end":23451.927,"text":"草案"},{"start":23481.827,"end":23493.596,"text":"二十一次會議決定自委員會抽出禁服二讀與相關提案並按協商抱怨會現在本案已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論立法院黨團協商結論開會時間114年8月13日星期三上午10時34分至11時0分"},{"start":23502.763,"end":23521.214,"text":"開會地點本月紅樓101會議室協商主題外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正草案協商結論一 第22條條文照行政院提案通過二 其條文及附帶決議均照114年6月30日審查會審查結果通過"},{"start":23522.054,"end":23547.721,"text":"主持人蔡易宇 行政代表傅坤吉 王宏維 羅志強 謝一鳳 柯建銘 吳思堯 陳培宇 羅美玲 徐物魁 邱志偉 范雲 黃國昌 張啟凱 陳昭芝 陳鼎飛 何欣淳 奈瑞榮 黃潔 邱益穎宣讀完畢請問議員會對以上的協商結論有意義沒有異議我們本案主條討論時 經以協商結論進行處理外國專業人才言論及僱用法 請宣讀第一條"},{"start":23548.482,"end":23572.654,"text":"第一條 為加強延攬及僱用外國專業人才以提升國家競爭力 特制定本法宣讀完畢照審討會條案通過 請宣讀第二條第二條 外國專業人才在中華民國以向僅剩五國從事專業工作 尋職依本法制規定本法為規定者使用就業服務法 入出國籍移民法及其他社會法律執規定宣讀完畢照審討會條案通過 請宣讀第三條"},{"start":23573.393,"end":23583.06,"text":"第三條本法將主管機關為國家發展委員會本法所定事項涉及中央目的事業主管機關執政者由各該機關辦理宣讀完畢"},{"start":23586.24,"end":23608.658,"text":"第四條本法用詞定義如下一 外國專業人才 指的在我國從事專業工作之外國人二 外國特定專業人才 指外國專業人才具有中央目的事業主管機關公告之我國所需科技 數位 經濟 教育 文化藝術 運動 金融 法律 建築設計 國防環境 生技及其他領域之特殊專才"},{"start":23609.825,"end":23625.707,"text":"或經主管機關會上相關中央目的事業主管機關認定具有特殊專長者三 為國勾起專業人才只入出國籍移民法所定為我國所需之勾起專業人才四 專業工作只下列工作一"},{"start":23626.187,"end":23643.44,"text":"就業服務法第46條第1項第1款至第3款第5款及第6款鎖定工作2.就業服務法第48條第1項第1款及第3款鎖定工作3.依補習及進修教育法令案之短期補習班以下簡宣短期補習班之專任外國語文教師"},{"start":23644.221,"end":23665.559,"text":"或具專門知識或技術且經中央目的事業主管及文匯商教育部指定之短期補習班教師四 教育部核定設立招收外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才子女專班之外國語文以外之學科教師及公司立高級終點項學校雙語教育"},{"start":23666.019,"end":23693.14,"text":"所聘請一級專長任教語言及語言以外之應難及活動等相關領域或科目並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓之教師五 學校型態實驗教育實施條例公立高級中等下學校委託私人辦理實驗教育條例及高級中等下教育階段非學校型態實驗教育實施條例鎖定學科外國語文課程教學實資養成"},{"start":23695.121,"end":23723.742,"text":"課审研发及活动推广工作宣读完毕赵审特会台湾通过其宣读第五条第五条雇主聘雇外国专业人才在我国从事减调第四款之专业工作除本法令有规定外应检据相关文件向劳动部申请许可并依就业服务法规定办理但聘雇从事就业服务法第46条第1项第3款及减调第4款第4幕第5幕之专业工作者应检据相关文件向教育部申请许可"},{"start":23724.202,"end":23747.06,"text":"依前項本文規定聘僱外國專業人才從事檢調第四款第三目制專業工作其工作資格及審查標準由勞動部會商中央目的事業主管機關定之依第一項單書規定聘僱外國專業人才從事鎖定制專業工作其工作資格審查基準申請許可廢止許可聘僱管理及其他相關事項職本法就教育部定之"},{"start":23747.72,"end":23766.452,"text":"以第一項規定聘僱從事前條第四款第四目第五目專業工作之外國專業人才其聘僱之管理處本法另有規定外以就業服務法有關從事該法第四十六條第一項第一款之第六款工作者之規定辦理宣讀完畢趙審才會條文通過請宣讀第六條"},{"start":23767.253,"end":23795.45,"text":"第六條外國人取得國內外大學之碩士以上學位或教育部公告世界大學排名前一千五百名大學之學士以上學位者受辯護在我國從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第一款專門性或技術性工作除應取得職業資格符合一定職業方式及條件者及應符合中央目的事業主管機關鎖定之法令規定外無需具備一定期間工作經驗"},{"start":23796.411,"end":23821.07,"text":"在審查會條文通過請宣讀第七條第七條 外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才在我國從事專業工作有下列進行之一者不須升級許可一 受各級政府及其所屬學術研究機關構聘請擔任顧問或研究工作二 受聘務於公立或以立案之私立大學進行講座學術研究經教育部任可"},{"start":23821.73,"end":23839.165,"text":"外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才及本人配偶未成年子女及因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女经内这部移民署许可永久居留者在我国从事工作不需向劳动部或教育部申请许可宣读完毕"},{"start":23841.943,"end":23871.583,"text":"第八條 雇主聘僱從事專業工作之外國特定專業人才其聘僱許可期間最長為五年其漫遊繼續聘僱之需要者得申請延期每次最長為五年其向外國特定專業人才及內政部移民署許可拘留者及外強拘留證之有效期間自許可之日起算最長為五年其漫遊繼續拘留之必要者得於拘留期限屆滿前向內政部移民署申請延期每次最長為五年"},{"start":23872.403,"end":23885.616,"text":"該外國特定專業人才之配偶未成年子女僅因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女經內置募移民屬許可居留者其外求居留證之有效期間及延期期限一通宣讀完畢"},{"start":23888.345,"end":23912.461,"text":"第九條 外國特定專業人才 擬在我國從事專業工作者得盡向內政部移民署申請核發具工作許可 拘留簽證外場拘留證及從入國許可 私證和一致就業金卡內政部移民署許可核發就業金卡前應會同勞動部及外交部審查等已入國之外國特定專業人才申請就業金卡時得免申請拘留簽證"},{"start":23913.482,"end":23940.728,"text":"前項就業金卡有效期間為一年至三年符合一定條件者等於有效期間屆滿前申請延期每次最長為三年前項就業金卡是申請程序審查延期至一定條件及其他相關事項指變法由內政部會商勞動部及外交部定之依第一項申請就業金卡或第二項申請延期者由內政部移民署收取歸費其收費標準由內政部會商勞動部及外交部定之宣讀完畢這審查會條文通過請宣讀第四條"},{"start":23942.932,"end":23965.406,"text":"第十條外國專業人才為藝術工作者得傾向勞動部申請許可在我國從事藝術工作其許可期間最長為三年必要時的申請延期每次最長為三年傾向申請之工作資格審查基準申請許可廢止許可聘僱管理及其他相關事項是辦法由勞動部會商文化部領知這審討會條文通過請宣讀第十一條"},{"start":23966.894,"end":23982.924,"text":"第十一條外國人於最近五年內取得教育部公告時間當學排名前二百名當學之學士以上學位者得盡向勞動部申請許可在我國從事專業工作其許可期間最長為二年且不得延期及重新申請"},{"start":23983.704,"end":24002.562,"text":"前向外國人進內政部移民署許可居留者其外求居留證至有效期間自許可至1日起算最長為2年第一項申請是工作資格審查基準申請許可廢止許可聘僱管理及其他相關事項之辦法由勞動部會商主管計劃定之宣讀完畢這審討會條文通過請宣讀第12條"},{"start":24004.662,"end":24021.005,"text":"第十二條外國人取得五國副學士以上學位者以應屆畢業生之身份依法取得內屆部移民署許可延期居留期間在五國從事工作得免申請工作許可再次呼籲條文通過請宣讀第十三條"},{"start":24021.71,"end":24037.256,"text":"第13条外国专业人才拟在我国从事专业工作需长期循职者得相同驻外管束申请合法三个月有效期限多次入国停留期限六个月之停留签证总停留期限最长为六个月"},{"start":24037.856,"end":24057.566,"text":"依前項規定取得停留簽證者自總停留期限屆滿之日期三年內不得在依該項規定申請合法停留簽證依第一項規定合法停留簽證者人數由外交部匯導內政部並匯商主管機關及中央目的事業主管機關至人才需求及申請狀況每年公告之"},{"start":24058.166,"end":24086.742,"text":"第一項申請是條件程序審查及其他相關事項執辦法由外交部會長內政部並會商中央目的事業主管機關是人才需求定之宣讀完畢再審查會條件通過請宣讀第14條第14條外國專業人才以數位方式從事遠端工作非為我國境內事業單位或雇主提供勞務並具備主管機關公告是一定條件者其本人配偶為成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女"},{"start":24087.122,"end":24114.075,"text":"得向外交部或駐外管處申請合法六個月有效期限多次入國停留期限六個月未加入縣制不准延期或其他限制之停留簽證於入國後停留期限屆滿有繼續停留之必要者得於停留期限屆滿前向內政部移民署申請延期每次延期期間不等於六個月並得免出國每次總停留期間最長為二年宣讀完畢請宣讀第十五條"},{"start":24116.263,"end":24132.562,"text":"第十五條外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才之配偶經內政務移民署學課在我國依親居留者得經銜勞動部申請學課在我國從事工作該工作學課期間不得於其依親居留期間"},{"start":24133.343,"end":24155.535,"text":"外國專業人才在我國從事專業工作外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才經內政務移民署許可永久居留者其春年子女經內政務移民署認定符合下列要件之一得傾向勞動部申請許可在我國從事工作一 曾在我國合法累計居留10年每年居住270日以上"},{"start":24156.095,"end":24175.63,"text":"二未滿14歲入國每年居住270日以上三在我國出生存在我國合法累計居留10年每年居住183日以上雇主聘務前二項配偶及成年職女從事工作得不受就業服務法第46條第1項第3項第47條第52條第53條第3項第4項第57條第5款第72條第4款及第74條規定職業限制並免依第55條規定繳納就業安定費"},{"start":24185.558,"end":24205.547,"text":"第二項外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才之子女於中華民國一百十二年一月一日前未滿十六歲入國者得遵用該項規定不受該項第二款有關未滿十四歲入國之限制宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第十六條"},{"start":24206.485,"end":24233.997,"text":"第十六條外國專業人才或外國特定專業人才以免簽證或持停留簽證入國經許可或免簽許可在我國從事專業工作者得經向內政部移民署申請拘留經許可者發給外僑拘留證外國專業人才在我國從事專業工作及外國特定專業人才經內政部移民署許可拘留或永久拘留者其配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女"},{"start":24234.477,"end":24261.532,"text":"以免簽證或持停留簽證著國者得經向內政部引入署申請居留經許可者發給外僑居留證宣讀完畢第十七條外國專業人才在五國從事專業工作外國特定專業人才依第八條第二項規定取得外僑居留證或依第九條規定取得就業金卡與居留校期或就業金卡有校期間欠滿錢能有居留制必要者"},{"start":24261.992,"end":24289.813,"text":"其本人及援金內政部移民署許可居留之配偶未成年子女與因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女得向內政部移民署申請延期居留且向申請延期居留經許可者發給外求居留證其外求居留證至有效期間自援居留校期或就業金額有效期間屆滿之一日期延期六個月延期屆滿前有必要者得再申請延期一次"},{"start":24290.653,"end":24314.591,"text":"總延長拘留期間最長為一年宣讀完畢請宣讀第十八條第十八條外國專業人才在五國從事專業工作合法連續拘留五年平均每年居住一百八十三日以上並符合下列各款要件者得向內政部移民署申請永久拘留一成年二無不良素行及無警察刑事紀錄證明執行稅案前期錄"},{"start":24315.311,"end":24340.985,"text":"三 有相當之財權或技能足以自立四 符合我國國家利益以下列個款情形之一為拘留原因而經內政部移民署許可在我國拘留之期間不進入前項在我國連續拘留期間一 在我國就學二 依入署國際移民法第23條第1項第3款第26條第1款第2款第31條第4項第5款至第8款規定經許可拘留"},{"start":24341.945,"end":24347.849,"text":"3.金许可在我国从事就业服务法第46条第1项第8款至第10款工作4."},{"start":24347.849,"end":24366.963,"text":"以前3款人员为依亲对象金许可居留外国特定专业人才应依第8条第1项规定取得特定专业人才工作许可或依第9条规定取得就业金卡而在我国居留并符合第1项各款要件者有下列情形之一的向内政部移民署申请永久居留"},{"start":24367.523,"end":24391.035,"text":"一 在我國合法地延續居留三年平均每年居住183日以上二 符合內政部公告之一定條件者在我國合法居留一年且居住183日以上外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才在我國就學取得大專校院副學士以上學位者得依下令規定折抵第一項及傾向之在我國居留期間"},{"start":24391.815,"end":24410.058,"text":"一 外國專業人才取得博士學位者折抵三年 書士學位者折抵二年學士或副學士學位者折抵一年 四者不得合併折遞二 外國特定專業人才取得博士學位者折抵二年 書士學位者折抵一年二者不得合併折遞"},{"start":24411.4,"end":24437.942,"text":"第一項及第三項規定申請永久拘留者應於拘留及居住期間屆滿後二年內申請之第一項第二款及第十九條第一項第一款所定無不良素行之認定程序及其他相關事項之標準由內任不定之宣讀完畢到審查會條文通過請宣讀第十八條更正第十九條"},{"start":24439.949,"end":24467.282,"text":"第十九条外国专业人才在我国从事专业工作经内政部移民署许可永久拘留后其配偶未成年子女仅因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女在我国合法连续拘留五年平均每年居住一百八十三日以上并符合下列要件者得向内政部移民署申请永久拘留一无不良素行请无警察刑事记录证明之行事案前记录二符合我国国家利益"},{"start":24467.862,"end":24488.775,"text":"外國特定專業員曾經內政部移民署許可永久居留後其配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女並符合前項各款要件者有下列情形之一得向內政部移民署申請永久居留一依侵對象為一前條第三項第一款規定僅許可永久居留者"},{"start":24489.375,"end":24503.831,"text":"在我国合法连续居留三年平均每年居住183日以上二 疫情对象唯一前条第三项地业法规定经许可永久居留者在我国合法居留一年且居住183日以上"},{"start":24504.532,"end":24533.117,"text":"前二項外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才之永久居留許可依入住國及移民法第33條第一款至第三款及第八款規定經撤銷或廢止者及配偶未成年子女及因順性障礙無法自理生活之成年子女之永久居留許可應並同撤銷或廢止依第一項及第二項規定申請永久居留者應於居留及居住期間屆滿後二年內申請之宣讀完畢"},{"start":24535.027,"end":24559.672,"text":"到審查會條文通過現行條文第十七條刪除請宣讀第二十條第二十條外國天地專業人才及外國高級專業人才經內政務移民手續可居留或永久居留者其直系村親屬能向外交部或駐外管處申請合法一年休息多次入國停留期限六個月及未加入限制不准延期或其他限制之停留簽證"},{"start":24560.672,"end":24585.707,"text":"于入国后停留期限届满有继续停留之必要者得于停留期限届满前向内政部移民署申请延期并得免出国每次总停留期间最长为一年前项职系遵亲署停留期间届满有继续停留之必要前以逃跑在我国停留期间之医疗及全额住院保险者"},{"start":24586.187,"end":24598.464,"text":"能於停留期間屆滿前向內政部移民署申請延期並等免出國不受前次每次總停留期間最長為一年之限制宣讀完畢趙省在會議條文通過請宣讀第21條"},{"start":24599.54,"end":24623.44,"text":"第二十一条 外国专业人才五特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才其本人配偶为成年子女 经营身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女经内政部移民署许可永久居留后 出国五年以上未曾入国者内政部移民署得费者其永久居留许可 其住乡及外侨永久居留制宣读完毕稍等会调通过 请宣读第二十二条"},{"start":24624.366,"end":24651.67,"text":"第二十二條自一百零七年度起在五國未設有戶籍並因工作而首次核准在五國居留且符合一定條件之外國特定專業人才其從事專業工作或依第九條規定取得就業金卡並在就業金卡有效期間受併顧從事專業工作與首次符合在五國居留滿一百八十三日且薪資所得超過新台幣三百萬元之課稅年度計算五年內"},{"start":24652.47,"end":24676.237,"text":"其個該在我國居留滿183日之課稅年度薪資所得超過新台幣300萬元部分之半數免予進入總額課稅且不適用所得基本稅額條例第十二條第一項第一款規定且向一定條件申請適用程序應檢護之證明文件及其他相關事項值分房由財政部會商相關經管領執宣動完畢"},{"start":24677.958,"end":24704.544,"text":"照行政院提案條文通過請宣讀第二十三條第二十三條外國專業人才為我特定專業人才及外國高階專業人才有效率執行之一者其本人配偶為成年子女及因順性障礙用法自理生活之成年子女經領有拘留證明文件者應參加全民健康保險為保險對象不受全民健康保險法第九條第一款在臺拘留滿六個月之限制"},{"start":24705.024,"end":24719.439,"text":"一 社會庇護從事專業工作二 外國代理專業人才及外國高級專業人才據《全民健康保險法》第四條定向第一款第四目鎖定雇主或自營業組織被保險人資格宣讀為B請宣讀第24條"},{"start":24722.563,"end":24747.358,"text":"第二十四条从事专业工作之外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才需用劳工退休金条例之退休金制度但其于本法中华民国一百十四年八月二十九日修正之条文实行前已受雇且仍服务于统一事业单位于修正实行之日其六个月内已书面向雇主表明继续使用劳动基准法之退休金规定者不在此限"},{"start":24748.178,"end":24762.984,"text":"曾依前項但書規定向僱主表明繼續使用勞動基準法之退休金規定者不得再變更選擇使用勞工退休金條例之退休金制度依第一項規定使用勞工退休金條例退休金制度者"},{"start":24763.524,"end":24785.459,"text":"其适用前之工作年资依该条例第11条规定办理雇主应未适用劳工退休金条例退休制度之外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才向劳动部劳工保险局办理提交手续对于第一项战术锁定期间届门未表明继续适用劳动基础法之退休金规定者"},{"start":24785.999,"end":24803.924,"text":"雇主正是应于该期间届满之日起15日内申报第一项外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才于本法中华民国114年8月29日收政治条文实行前已适用劳工退休金条例或以依法向雇主表明继续适用"},{"start":24804.484,"end":24824.663,"text":"劳动基准法之退休金制度者仍依各该规定办理不适用前四项规定本法中华民国114年8月29日修正制条文实行时相关依修正实行前第一项难说规定或依劳工退休金条例第八条之一第二项规定向雇主表明继续适用劳动基准法"},{"start":24825.283,"end":24847.826,"text":"指退休金規定且前開規定之表明期間尚未屆滿者人的餘休正施行居住期六個月內向戶主表明之藉其為表明者戶主應訴及自其取得永久居留許可居住期為其提交退休金訊讀完畢到審查會條文通過請宣讀第25條"},{"start":24849.215,"end":24867.514,"text":"第二十五條外國專業人才或特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才受雇在我國從事工作並經內政部移民屬許可永久居留者處本法另有規定外適用就業保險法制規定前將人員於申請後使經內政部移民屬許可永久居留者"},{"start":24868.135,"end":24897.575,"text":"其雇主因于许可永久居留之日为其申报参加就业保险第一项人员于本法中华民国一百十四年8月29日修正制条文实行前已取得永久居留许可且于修正实行时仍继续受雇者其雇主因于修正实行之当日为其申报参加就业保险依前二项规定申报参加就业保险者其保险效力之开始均自雇主因为申报之当日起算"},{"start":24898.175,"end":24924.255,"text":"户主非於因為申報之當日為其申報參加就業保險者處以就業保險法第38條規定處防衛其保險效率直開始均自申報之一日起算已依前四項規定參加就業保險者於勤領事業給付或職業訓練生活津貼期間在我國境內有符合就業保險法第19條之一第二項規定之受撫養眷屬者得依該條第一項規定將給給付或津貼"},{"start":24926.437,"end":24944.61,"text":"以第一項是第四項規定參加就業保險而經內政府以民屬撐銷廢紙及永久居留許可者喪失領受就業保險相關緊扶持權利但因回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭撐銷或廢紙永久居留"},{"start":24945.41,"end":24960.147,"text":"許可者不再期限第一項人員於本法中華民國一百十四年八月二十九日收政治條文實行前已適用就業保險法則不適用前六項規定宣讀完畢在審議會條文通過請宣讀第二十六條"},{"start":24961.178,"end":24979.9,"text":"第26條 外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才受併顧擔任五國公立學校限職編制內專任合格有幾支教師與研究人員及政府機關與其所屬學術研究機關共限職編制內專任合格有幾支研究人員"},{"start":24980.621,"end":25005.526,"text":"其退休時項准用公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例且經內政部移民署許可永久拘留者則依遵領一次退休金或月退休金准用公立學校教職員個人專戶制退休之前撫恤條例者依該條例規定辦理已依前項規定准用公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例且遵領月退休金而經內政部移民署撫恤護費制"},{"start":25007.006,"end":25020.514,"text":"其永久居留許可者甚至領受月退休經濟權利但因回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限宣讀完畢"},{"start":25023.257,"end":25041.828,"text":"第二十七条 外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才受聘雇担任我国科学园区之公立实验高级中等学校双语部限职编程内专任合格有期之教师及退休之前辅训及离职退费事项"},{"start":25042.328,"end":25071.021,"text":"准用公立学校教师规定依前项规定准用公立学校教职员退休自行服需条例且经内政部移民署许可永久居留者得则依支领一次退休金或月退休金其选择支领月退休金而经内政部移民署撤销或废止其永久居留许可者暂时领受月退休金之权利但因回复我国国籍取得我国国籍或兼具我国国籍而增撤销或废止永久居留许可者不在此限"},{"start":25074.864,"end":25096.582,"text":"第二十八條外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才及本人配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女經內進步移民屬需可永久居留並合法累計居留十年每年居住一百八十三日以上及身體系統構造或功能有損傷或不全導致"},{"start":25097.622,"end":25113.755,"text":"顯著偏離或喪失影響其活動與參與社會生活得向指向市縣市政府提出身心障礙鑑定及需求評估時申請經身心障礙者權以保障法第五條鎖定這專業團體依該法第六條及第七條規定鑑定及"},{"start":25114.696,"end":25128.876,"text":"評估是結果符合該法規定者准用身心障礙者權益保障法第50條第51條規定提供其所需之服務以下列個款刑刑之一為拘留原因而境內正部移民所需可在我國拘留這期間"},{"start":25129.617,"end":25132.959,"text":"不进入前项在我国累计居留期间1."},{"start":25132.959,"end":25134.639,"text":"在我国就学2."},{"start":25134.639,"end":25145.104,"text":"入处国际移民法第23条第1项第3款第26条第1款第2款第31条第4项第5款至第8款规定经许可居留3."},{"start":25145.104,"end":25156.529,"text":"以前2款人员为疫情对象经许可居留以符合第1项规定而行内政部移民署称效获废者其永久居留许可者其准用身心障碍者权益保障法第50条"},{"start":25156.989,"end":25176.507,"text":"第51條規定提供之服務應與中止但應回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭受效或廢止永久居留許可則不在此限第一項就申請程序應檢附文件及其他相關事項之變化由衛生福利部會上相關機關領執宣讀完畢趙審查會條文通過請宣讀第29條"},{"start":25181.772,"end":25207.306,"text":"第29條 外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才其本人配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女經歷任務以民屬許可永久居留並合法累計居留10年 每年居住183日以上應身心順能且符合下列資格之一者得向長期照顧管理中心或直轄市縣市政府提出申請"},{"start":25208.707,"end":25222.823,"text":"經依《長期照顧服務法》第八條及第八條之一評估任符合給付長期照顧服務之適能情形按其適能程度核定長期照顧需要等級及長期照顧服務給付額度後准用"},{"start":25223.524,"end":25248.03,"text":"依该法第八条之一第四项锁定办法提供服务依65岁以上而精神性障碍者纯业保障法第五条锁定之专业团队依该法第六条及第七条规定鉴定及评估之结果符合该法规定以下列更缓进行之一为拘留原因而经内政部移民署许可在五国拘留者期间不进入前项在五国累计拘留期间依在五国就学"},{"start":25248.49,"end":25275.686,"text":"二 一 入处国籍移民法第23条第1项第3款第26条第1款第2款第31条第4项第5款至第8款规定经许可居留三 以前2款人员为依亲对象经许可居留以符合第1项规定而居内政务移民署撤销获废者其永久居留许可者其准要依长期照顾服务法第8条之一第4项锁定办法提供之服务应予终止但应回复我国国籍"},{"start":25276.526,"end":25290.463,"text":"取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限第一項就請程序應請附文件提供服務內容及其他相關事項之變法由衛生部立附會商相關機關領執宣讀完畢"},{"start":25294.673,"end":25319.694,"text":"第三十條 香港或澳門居民在臺灣地區從事專業工作或尋職轉用第五條至第六條 第七條定向第八條至第十三條 第十七條 第二十二條至第二十四條及第二十七條定向規定有關入境 停留及拘留等事項由內政部依香港澳門關係條例及其相關規定辦理前向香港或澳門居民至外國籍配偶 未成年子女"},{"start":25320.414,"end":25330.129,"text":"即因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女準用第八條第二項第十六條第二項第十七條及第二十三條規定訓斷外幣請宣讀第三十一條"},{"start":25332.594,"end":25350.569,"text":"第三十一条我国国民兼具外国国籍而未在我国身有户籍并符合下列情形之意者在我国从事工作 得免申请工作许可一 外国人规划取得我国国籍二 一 入出国籍移民法第九条第一项第四款第一款或第四款"},{"start":25351.609,"end":25371.559,"text":"經內政部移民署許可拘留及其父母現為或曾為居住臺灣地區聖友戶籍國民我國國民兼具外國國籍而會在我國聖友戶籍除前項規定外持外國護照致我國從事專業工作或尋職者依本法有關外國專業人才之規定辦理宣讀完畢法審會條文通過請宣讀第32條"},{"start":25374.81,"end":25403.849,"text":"第32條外國專業人才或不特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才經規劃取得我國國籍證其配偶子女及直系村親屬準用第8條第2項第15條第16條第2項第17條第19條至第21條及入出國籍移民法第25條第5項規定宣讀完畢請宣讀第33條本法實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":25404.434,"end":25411.116,"text":"報告委員會我們照審查會條文通過報告委員會我們全案已經經過二讀現在有民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問委員會有異議沒有異議請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":25421.277,"end":25443.756,"text":"第一條 為加強延攬及僱用外國專業人才以提升國家競爭力 透視立本法第二條 外國專業人才在中華民國以下結成我國從事專業工作 尋職依本法之規定本法為規定者使用就業服務法 入住國及移民法及其他身分法律之規定第三條 本法則主管機關為國家發展委員會"},{"start":25445.838,"end":25464.369,"text":"本法所定事項涉及中央目的事業主管機關執行者由各該機關辦理第四條本法用詞定義如下一 外國專業人才指的在我國從事專業工作之外國人二 外國特定專業人才指外國專業人才具有中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":25465.229,"end":25488.175,"text":"公告指我國所需科技、數位、經濟、教育、文化藝術、運動、金融、法律、建築設計、國防環境、生技及其他領域之特殊專長或經主管機關會商、相關中央目的事業主管機關認定具有特殊專長者三、外國高級專業人才指入住國及移民法所定為我國所需之高級專業人才"},{"start":25489.636,"end":25492.659,"text":"4.专业工作至下列工作1."},{"start":25492.659,"end":25499.766,"text":"就业服务法第46条第1项第1款至第3款第5款及第6款锁定工作2."},{"start":25499.766,"end":25505.452,"text":"就业服务法第48条第1项第1款及第3款锁定工作3."},{"start":25505.452,"end":25508.516,"text":"补习及进行中教育法离岸至短期补习班"},{"start":25508.996,"end":25535.465,"text":"以下簡稱短期補習班之專任外國語文教師或具專門知識或技術且經中央目的事業主管機關會商教育部指定之短期補習班教師四 教育部核定設立教授外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才子女專班之外國語文以外之學科教師及公司立高級中等影像學校雙語教育"},{"start":25535.945,"end":25563.508,"text":"所聘請依其專長任教語言及語言以外之藝能及活動等相關領域或科目並協助相關教學及教師研習培訓指教師五 學校型態實驗教育實施條例公立高級中等以下學校委託私人辦理實驗教育條例及高級中等以下教育階段非學校型態實驗教育實施條例鎖定學科為我語文課程教學實施養成"},{"start":25564.429,"end":25592.209,"text":"科學研發及活動推廣工作第五條 雇主聘僱外國專業人才在我國從事前條第四款之專業工作處本法另有規定外應檢據相關文件向勞動部申請許可並依就業服務法規定辦理但聘僱從事就業服務法第46條定向第三款及前條第四款第四目第五目之專業工作者應檢據相關文件向教育部申請許可"},{"start":25592.689,"end":25612.026,"text":"依前項本文規定聘募外國專業人才從事檢調第四款第三目的專業工作其工作資格及審查標準由勞動部會商中央目的事業主管機關定之依第一項單書規定聘募外國專業人才從事鎖定之專業工作及工作資格審查基準申請許可"},{"start":25613.527,"end":25634.57,"text":"聘僱管理及其他相關事項之本法有求與不定之依第一項規定聘僱從事前條第四款第四幕第五幕專業工作之外國專業人才其聘僱之管理處本法另有規定外依就業服務法有關從事開放第四十六條第一項第一款至第六款工作者之規定辦理"},{"start":25636.277,"end":25658.667,"text":"第六條 外國人取得國內外大學之碩士以上學位或教育部公告世界大學排名前1500名大學之學士以上學位者受庇護在我國從事就業服務法第46條 第一項第一款專門性或技術性工作除應取得職業資格符合一定職業方式及條件者"},{"start":25659.187,"end":25676.006,"text":"即應符合中央目的事業主管機關鎖定之法令規定外無需具備一定期間工作行業第七條外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才在我國從事專業工作有下令執行專業者"},{"start":25676.667,"end":25690.803,"text":"不需申請學科一 受各級政府及其所屬學術研究機關構聘請擔任顧問或研究工作二 受聘僱於公立或以利安執司力大學進行講座學術研究經教育部任課"},{"start":25691.944,"end":25708.015,"text":"外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才及本人配偶未成年子女及因《双性障碍法》治理生活者成年子女今天这部移民署许可永久居留者在我国从事工作不需向劳动部或教育部申请许可"},{"start":25709.176,"end":25731.198,"text":"第八条雇主聘雇从事专业工作之外国特定专业人才其聘雇许可期间最长为5年其满有继续聘雇之需要者得申请延期每次最长为5年前向外国特定专业人才境内之母移民属许可拘留者其外照拘留正是有效期间自许可之一日期算最长为5年"},{"start":25731.698,"end":25753.437,"text":"其满有继续居留之必要者等于居留期限届满前向内届部移民署申请延期每次最长为5年该为国特定专业人才之配偶未成年子女及因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女及内届部移民署许可居留者其未求居留真正有效期间及延期期限一同"},{"start":25755.546,"end":25779.782,"text":"第九条 外国特定专业人才临在我国从事专业工作者得进向内政务移民署申请合法聚工作许可居留签证 外求居留证及从入国许可自证合一支就业金卡内政务移民署许可合法就业金卡前应会同劳动部及外交部审查但已入国之外国特定专业人才申请就业金卡时得免申请居留签证"},{"start":25780.582,"end":25807.07,"text":"前项就业金卡有效期限为一年至三年符合一定条件者等于有效期间届满前申请延期每次最长为三年前项就业金卡就申请程序审查延期至一定条件及其当相关市场之办法由内政部汇商劳动不及外交不定之一 第一项申请就业金卡或第二项申请延期者由内政部移民署收取规费其收费标准由内政部汇商劳动不及外交不定之"},{"start":25808.27,"end":25829.955,"text":"第十条 外国专业人才为艺术工作者得进项劳动部申请许可在我国从事艺术工作其许可期间最长为三年必要时的申请延期每次最长为三年其项申请之工作资格审查精准申请许可 废止许可聘务管理及其他相关事项之办法由劳动部会商文化部定之"},{"start":25830.915,"end":25848.05,"text":"第十一条外国人于最近五年内取得教育部公告世界大学排名前200名大学之学士以上学位者得进项劳动部申请许可在我国从事专业工作其许可期间最长为二年求不得延期及重新申请"},{"start":25848.61,"end":25867.168,"text":"前向未果仍经内政部移民署许可拘留者请问求拘留正在有效期间自许可之一日其顺最长为二年第一项申请是工作资格审查基准申请许可非这许可聘工管理及其他相关事项时办法由劳动部会商务主管机关定制第十二条"},{"start":25867.799,"end":25887.063,"text":"外國人取得我國附學士以上學位者以應屆畢業 升職身份依法取得內政部移民署許可延期拘留期間在我國從事工作 得免申請工作許可第十三條外國宣言人才年在我國從事專業工作需長期殉職者"},{"start":25888.908,"end":25906.653,"text":"得向诸位管处申请和发三个月有效期限多次入国停留期限六个月之停留签证总停留期限最长为六个月依前项规定取得停留签证者自总停留期限届满之日期三年内不得在依该项规定申请和发停留签证"},{"start":25907.193,"end":25929.306,"text":"依第一項規定合法停留簽證之人數由外交部回到內政部並回商主管機關及中央目的事業主管機關是人才需求及申請綜合每年公告之第一項申請之條件程序審查及其他相關事項之辦法由外交部回到內政部並回商中央目的事業主管機關是人才需求定之"},{"start":25930.326,"end":25958.619,"text":"第十四条为国专业人才以数位方式从事远端工作非为我国境内事业单位或雇主提供劳务并具备主管机关公告之一定条件者即本人配偶未成年子女即因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女得向外交部或出外管处申请发六个月有效期限多程入国停留期限六个月未加注限制不准延期或其他限制之停留签证"},{"start":25959.119,"end":25973.74,"text":"于入国后停留期限届满有继续停留之必要者等于停留期限届满前向内政部移民署申请延期每次延期期间不等于6个月并等免出国每次总停留期间最长为2年"},{"start":25975.359,"end":25997.295,"text":"第15條 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才之配偶今天這部移民署學課在我國依親居留者等這項勞動陌生期學課在我國從事工作該工作學課期間不等於其依親居留期間外國專業人才在我國從事專業工作外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才"},{"start":25998.556,"end":26014.563,"text":"经内政部移民署许可永久拘留者其春年资约经内政部移民署认定符合下列要件之一得进项劳动物升级许可在我国从事工作一 曾在我国合法累计拘留10年每年居住270人以上"},{"start":26015.143,"end":26032.066,"text":"二 未满14岁入国每年居住270日以上三 自我国出生存在我国合法累计居留10年每年居住183日以上雇主聘雇情人项配偶及未成年成员从事工作得不受就业服务法第46条第一项第三项"},{"start":26032.566,"end":26052.225,"text":"第47條第52條第53條第3項第4項第57條第5款第72條第4款及第74條規定之限制避免依第55條規定繳納就業安定費第二項外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才之子女"},{"start":26052.825,"end":26078.28,"text":"于中华民国112年1月日前未满16岁入国者得适用该项规定不受该项第二款有关未满14岁入国之限制第十六条外国专业人才或外国特定专业人才以免签证或停留签证入国经许可或免经许可在我国从事专业工作者得经相应证部移民署申请拘留经许可者放于外强主流证"},{"start":26078.88,"end":26098.399,"text":"外国专业人才在我国从事专业工作及外国特定专业人才及内政部移民所需可拘留或永久拘留者其配偶未成年子女及因专心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女以免签证或持停留签证入国者得即将内政部移民所申请拘留经许可者发给外求拘留证"},{"start":26099.459,"end":26125.308,"text":"第十七条外国专业人才在我国从事专业工作外国特定专业人才以第八条第二项规定取得外桥居留证会议第九条规定取得就业金卡于居留校期或就业金卡有效期间见满钱能由居留制变养者基本人籍原籍内政部移民署学科居留之配偶未成年子女与因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女能向内政部移民署申请延期居留"},{"start":26125.908,"end":26143.818,"text":"请向申请延期居留经许可者发给外强居留证其外强居留证是有效期间自原居留校籍或就业金卡有效期间届满之1日起延期6个月延期届满前有必要者得再申请延期一次总延长居留期间最长为1年"},{"start":26145.683,"end":26173.619,"text":"第十八条 外国专业人才进入国从事专业工作合法连续居留五年平均每年居住一百八十三日以上并符合项内各款要件者等项内政务移民署申请有求居留一 成年二 五 不良塑形请勿检查刑事记录证明之刑事案进行录三 有相当之财神或技能足以自立四 符合我国国家利益以项内各款行营之一为居留原因而经内政务移民署需可"},{"start":26174.159,"end":26178.903,"text":"在五国居留之间不进入前项在五国连续居留期间1."},{"start":26178.903,"end":26180.044,"text":"在五国就学2."},{"start":26180.044,"end":26190.592,"text":"入处国际民法第23条第1项第3款第26条第1款第2款第31条第4项第5款至第8款规定经许可居留3."},{"start":26190.592,"end":26196.796,"text":"经许可在五国从事就业服务法第46条第1项第8款至第10款工作4."},{"start":26196.796,"end":26199.659,"text":"以前三款人员为一期对象经许可居留"},{"start":26200.279,"end":26216.2,"text":"外国特定专业人才因依第八条第一项规定取得特定专业人才工作许可或依第九条规定取得就业金考入在我国居留必符合第一项各款要件者有下列情形之一得向内政部移民署申请永久居留"},{"start":26216.761,"end":26232.174,"text":"一 在我國合法連續居留三年平均每年居住一百八十三日以上二 符合內政部廣告規定條件者在我國合法居留一年且居住一百八十三日以上外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才在我國就學取得"},{"start":26232.654,"end":26258.778,"text":"大專校院副學士以上學位者得依下令規定折抵第一項及前項之在我國居留期間一 外國專業人才取得博士學位者折抵三年碩士學位者折抵二年學士或副學士學位者折抵一年四者不得合併折抵二 外國特定專業人才取得博士學位者折抵二年碩士學位者折抵一年二者不得合併折抵"},{"start":26259.358,"end":26275.227,"text":"依第一項及第三項規定申請永久居留者應於居留及居住期間屆滿後二年內申請之第一項第二款及第十九條第一項第一款所定無不良促進之認定程序及其當相關市場者標準由內政部定之"},{"start":26276.327,"end":26293.147,"text":"第十九条外国专业人才在我国从事专业工作经内政务移民属区可永久居留后其培养未成年子女及应顺性障碍无法自理生活之成年子女在我国合法连续居留五年平均每年居住一百八十三日以上并符合夏令亚政策"},{"start":26293.587,"end":26320.778,"text":"得向内政部移民署申请永久居留一 无不良俗行且无警察刑事记录证明之刑事案进行录二 符合我国家利益外国特定专业人才其内政部移民署许可永久居留后其配偶未成年子女及因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女并符合前项各款要件者有效率进行之一得向内政部移民署申请永久居留一 一千对象为一前条第三项第一款规定"},{"start":26321.238,"end":26338.104,"text":"经许可永久居留者在我国合法连续居留三年平均每年居住183日以上而依侵对象为一前条第三项地业款规定经许可永久居留者在我国合法居留一年且居住183日以上"},{"start":26338.784,"end":26366.842,"text":"其二项外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才之永久居留许可因入住国及移民法第33条第1款至第3款及第8款规定经撤销或废止者其配偶未成年子女及因身心障碍无法自理生活之成年子女之永久居留许可应并同撤销或废止因第一项及第二项规定申请永久居留者应于居留及居住期间届满后2年内申请之"},{"start":26368.905,"end":26396.366,"text":"第二十条外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才及内政部移民所需可拘留或拥有拘留者及直系村亲属得向外交部或驻外管处申请合法一年效期多次入国停留期限六个月及未加入限制不准延期或其他限制之停留签证于入国后停留期限届满有继续停留之必要者得于停留期限届满前上"},{"start":26396.906,"end":26421.746,"text":"内政部移民署申请延期并得免出国每次总停留期间最长为一年像直系村亲属停留期间届满有继续停留致必要前亦投保在我国停留期间是医疗及全额住院保险者等于停留期间届满前像内政部移民署申请延期并得免出国不适合前项每次总停留期间最长为一年之限制"},{"start":26422.967,"end":26445.801,"text":"第二十一条 外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才及本人配偶未成年子女及因社性障碍无法自理生活之成年子女及内政务移民署许可永久居留后出国五年以上未曾入国者内政务移民署得费者及永久居留许可及注销及外交永久居留证"},{"start":26447.372,"end":26462.083,"text":"第22條自107年度起在我國衛社有戶籍並因工作而守資核准在我國居留其符合一定條件之外國特定專業人才其從事專業工作會議第9條規定取得就業金卡"},{"start":26462.583,"end":26483.346,"text":"并在就业金额有效期间受聘雇从事专业工作余首次符合在我国居留满183日且薪资所得超过新台币300万元之课税年度结算5年内其更该在我国居留满183日之课税年度薪资所得超过新台币300万元部分之半数"},{"start":26483.826,"end":26499.268,"text":"免予進入綜合所的總額課稅且不適用所的基本稅人條例第十二條第一項第一款規定前項一定條件申請適用程序應檢扶持證明文件及其他相關事項之辦法由財政部會商相關機關頂之"},{"start":26501.314,"end":26524.427,"text":"第二十三条 外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才有效率进行之一者及本人配偶未成年子女及因双性障碍与无法自理生活之成年子女经理有居留证明文件者应参加全民健康保险为保险对象补充全民健康保险法第九条第一款在台居留满六个月之限制一 受聘雇从事专业工作"},{"start":26524.907,"end":26553.722,"text":"二 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才具有取民间刚保险法第十条第一项第一款第四目所定雇主或经营业组织被保险人资格第二十四条从事专业工作之外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才需有劳工退休金条例之退休金制度但其于本法中华民国一百十四年八月二十九日修正条文实行前引述过请人服务于同一事业单位"},{"start":26554.222,"end":26582.297,"text":"於休任事件出席前六個月內與書面向僱主表明繼續適用勞動基準法之退休金規定者不在此限曾依前項段數規定向僱主表明繼續適用勞動基準法之退休金規定者不得再變更選擇適用勞工退休金條例之退休金制度依第一項規定適用勞工退休金條例退休金制度者其適用錢之工作年資依該條例第十一條規定辦理"},{"start":26583.317,"end":26605.319,"text":"雇主因为使用劳工退休金条例退休金制度之外国专业人才及外国特定专业人才向劳动部劳工保险局办理提交手续对于第一项单书锁定期间届满未表明继续使用劳工制度法之退休金规定者雇主这时应于该期间届满之日起15日内申报"},{"start":26606.3,"end":26629.623,"text":"第一项为国专业人才及为国特定专业人才于本法中华民国114年8月29日修正式条文实行前已适用劳工退休金条例或以依法上户属表明继续适用劳动基准法之退休金制度者仍依各该规定办理不是用前四项规定本法中华民国114年8月29日修正式条文实行时"},{"start":26630.043,"end":26656.654,"text":"尚未依修正施行前第一项贷助规定未依劳工退休金条例第八条之一第二项规定向雇主表明继续使用劳动基准法之退休金规定且前开规定之表明其间尚未届满者仍得于修正施行之日期六个月内向雇主表明之借其为表明者雇主应速及自其取得永久居留许可之日期为其提交退休金"},{"start":26658.635,"end":26677.595,"text":"第二十五条外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才受雇在我国从事工作并经内政部移民署许可永久拘留者出本法另有规定外适用就业保险法之规定前向人员于受雇后实行内政部移民署许可永久拘留者"},{"start":26678.155,"end":26704.79,"text":"其雇主因于许可永久居留之日为其申报参加就业保险第一项人员于本法中华民国114年8月29日修正任条文实行前已取得永久居留许可且于修正实行时仍继续受雇者其雇主因于修正实行之当日为其申报参加就业保险依前二项规定申报参加就业保险者其保险效率直开始均自雇主因"},{"start":26705.69,"end":26734.489,"text":"为申报之当日起算雇主非于因为申报之当日为其申报参加就业保险者处于就业保险法第38条规定处罚为其保险效率只开始均自申报之日起算已依前四项规定参加就业保险者于勤令事业给付货职业训练生活洁贴期间在我国境内有符合就业保险法第19条之一第二项规定之受抚养驻属者等应该条第一项规定加给给付货洁贴"},{"start":26735.089,"end":26764.553,"text":"已因第一项至第四项规定参加就业保险而经内政务营属撤销或废止其永久居留许可者正是领受就业保险相关给付之权利但因回复我国国籍取得我国籍或兼具我国国籍而遭撤销或废止永久居留许可者不在此限第一项人员于本法中华民国114年8月29日修正制条文实行前已适用就业保险法者不适用前六项规定"},{"start":26766.806,"end":26793.258,"text":"第26條 外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才受聘務擔任五國公立學校限職編制內專任合格有幾支教師與研究人員及政府機關與其所屬學術研究機關共限職編制內專任合格有幾支研究人員及退休時尚准用公立學校教職員退休自己的輔學條例且經內政府移民屬需可永久居留者"},{"start":26793.798,"end":26811.298,"text":"德资依据领一次退休金或月退休金准用公立学校教职员个人专户制退休资检抚恤条例者依该条例规定办理依依前项规定准用公立学校教职员退休资检抚恤条例且据领月退休金而境内政务移民署"},{"start":26811.898,"end":26825.511,"text":"称相获废者及永久居留许可者赠宣领受与退休经济权利但因回复我国国籍取得我国国籍或兼训我国国籍而遭称相获废者及永久居留许可者不在此限"},{"start":26827.031,"end":26842.185,"text":"第二十七条外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才受并不担任我国科学园区之公立实验高级中等学校中语部限职编制内专任合格有级之教师"},{"start":26842.785,"end":26866.779,"text":"其退休之前服需及离职退费事项准用公立学校教师规定依前线规定准用公立学校教职员退休之前服需条例且经内政部移民署许可永久居留者得则依支领一次退休金或月退休金其选择支领月退休金而经内政部移民署称交货费者及永久居留许可者"},{"start":26867.299,"end":26877.507,"text":"曾是领受越退休禁制权利但因回复我国国籍 取代我国国籍或兼具我国国籍而遭撤销获废者永久拘留选择者不再实现"},{"start":26880.563,"end":26909.979,"text":"第二十八条外国专业人才 外国特定专业人才及外国高级专业人才及本人配偶未成年子女进行身心障碍无法自理生活者成年子女经内置募引一属许可永久拘留并合法累计拘留10年每年居住183日以上其身体系统共障碍功能有损伤或不全导致显著偏离或丧失影响其活动或参与社会生活而向职辖市县市政府提出身心障碍鉴定"},{"start":26910.439,"end":26926.406,"text":"及需求評估至申請經申請障礙者權益保障法第五條鎖定至正月團隊依該法第六條及第七條規定建立及評估申請過符合該法規定者准用申請障礙者權益保障法"},{"start":26926.866,"end":26939.976,"text":"第50条第51条规定提供其所需之服务以下列各款基金之一为拘留原因而今天正部移民所许可在我国拘留之期间不进入前项在我国累计拘留期间1."},{"start":26939.976,"end":26941.517,"text":"在我国教学2."},{"start":26941.517,"end":26951.005,"text":"入驻国际移民法第23条第1项第3款第26条第1款第2款第31条第4项第5款是第8款规定经许可拘留"},{"start":26951.665,"end":26967.729,"text":"三 以前恩還人員為依親對象經許可拒留以符合第一項規定而其內政部已民屬撤向獲廢者及永久拒留許可者其准用身心障礙決心保障法第五十條第五十一條規定提供之服務應與中止"},{"start":26968.289,"end":26983.551,"text":"但因回復我國國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍而遭受消耗費者永久日留許可者不再此限第一項則是申請程序印檢復文件及其他相關事項之辦法由衛生福利部會商相關機關領執"},{"start":26986.328,"end":27011.997,"text":"第29條 外國專業人才 外國特典專業人才及外國高級專業人才及本人配偶未成年子女及因身性障礙無法自理生活者成年子女經內政務移民屬需可永久居留並合法累計居留10年 每年居住183日以上應身心順能且符合下列資格專業者得向長期照顧管理中心或職小室縣市政府提出申請"},{"start":27013.197,"end":27042.072,"text":"經依長期照顧服務法第八條及第八條之一評估任符合給付長期照顧服務之適能期刑按其適能程度核定長期照顧需要等級及長期照顧服務給付額度後准用依該法第八條之一第四項鎖定辦法提供服務依65歲以上任經稅金障礙者權益保障法第五條鎖定之專業團隊依該法第六條及第七條規定鑑定及評估之結果符合該法規定"},{"start":27042.592,"end":27067.631,"text":"一 下列各款迄今之一为拘留原因而境内正部移民属学客在五国拘留之期间不进入前项在五国累计拘留期间一 在五国教学二 一 入出国及移民法第23条第1项第3款第26条第1款第2款第31条第4项第5款至第8款规定经许可拘留三 以前二款人员为依亲对象经许可拘留"},{"start":27068.471,"end":27097.491,"text":"以符合第一项规定而经内政府移民署撤销后废除其永久居留许可者其准用依从其政务服务法第八条之一第四项所定办法提供之服务应有终止单因回复我国国籍取得我国国籍或接触我国国籍而遭撤销后废除永久居留许可者不再此限第一项就申请程序应景服务文件提供服务内容及其等相关事项之办法由卫生福利部会商相关机关领知"},{"start":27098.912,"end":27125.535,"text":"第30條 香港或澳門居民在台灣地區從事專業工作或尋職準用第5條至第6條第7條定向第8條至第13條第17條第22條至第24條及第27條定向規定有關入境 鐵路及居留等事項由內政部依《香港澳門關係條例》及其相關規定辦理前向香港或澳門居民之外國籍配偶 未成年子女"},{"start":27126.235,"end":27152.51,"text":"即因身心障礙无法自理生活者成年子女准用第八条第二项第十六条第二项第十七条及第二十三条规定第三十一条我国国民迁去外国国籍而未在我国身有户籍并符合下列执行之一者在我国从事工作得免申请工作许可一 外国人规划取得我国国籍二 一 入出国籍移民法第九条第一项第一款或第四款"},{"start":27153.13,"end":27172.049,"text":"经内任务已民属许可拘留且其父母现为或曾为居住台湾地区摄影户籍国民我国国民兼训外国国籍而未在我国摄影户籍除前项规定外请外国护照致我国从事专业工作或巡职者依本法有关外国专业人才之规定办理"},{"start":27172.949,"end":27199.884,"text":"第32條 外國專業人才 外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才經規劃取得我國國籍證其配偶子女及直系村親屬存用第8條 第2項 第15條第16條 第2項 第17條第19條 第21條及入住國籍移民法第25條 第5項規定第33條 本法實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":27201.502,"end":27220.83,"text":"抱怨會三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在作以下決議外國專業人才延攬及僱用法修正通過我們現在繼續處理審查會通過之附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":27223.564,"end":27249.953,"text":"通過附帶決議六項一 國家發展委員會應統籌相關部會一 外國專業人才外國特定專業人才每年申請永久居留情形適時檢討政策執行狀況二 針對外國專業人才配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法治理生活成年子女與獲得許可永久居留並經評估適用身心障礙者權益保障法長期照顧法"},{"start":27251.309,"end":27277.836,"text":"規定所提供之服務而衍生之相關經費請衛生福利部應編列預算之意維持整體照顧服務品質與量能三 教育部督促學校與外國學生招生作業時應審查學生需具備一定之語言語文能力及經濟能力並確認學生來台就學爭議推動專科以上學校"},{"start":27279.342,"end":27294.667,"text":"維護外國學生受教權益查核計畫教育部如接獲學生涉不當公讀等勞動情勢檢舉及函請學校查處並函轉勞動部依全責辦理教育部每年舉辦數場"},{"start":27296.972,"end":27312.257,"text":"次境外學生輔導人員服務素養培訓課程及橋外生座談四有關外國專業人才延攬及雇用法規定之配偶來台一新居留者應檢附經我國駐外"},{"start":27313.891,"end":27330.434,"text":"住外管處驗證之結婚證明等文件於入國後向內政部移民署申請依循居留五位友善外國專業人才申請及使用請衛生福利部應製作相關英文申請表單或說明以利其申請相關服務六"},{"start":27331.416,"end":27344.115,"text":"針對外國人免簽來台應參與臨時性活動未申請工作許可而處罰部分請勞動部檢討相關裁判是否應評估比例原則避免造成攬裁負面影響宣讀完畢"},{"start":27345.151,"end":27362.78,"text":"官員會依照協商結論我們均照案通過好我們現在進入討論事項第六案資通安全管理法修正草案本案經第三會期第二三次會議決議協商後再行處理官員會本案已經完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":27365.307,"end":27381.363,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間114年8月15日星期五上午11時13分至12時12分地點立法院紅樓201會議室協商主題自通安全管理法修正查案協商結論一協商通過條文第3條第10條第11條第25條及第32條如附件"},{"start":27386.889,"end":27409.066,"text":"二 其餘經照審查會審查結果通過三 條次引述條文部分文字及原影條次授權議事人員整理協商主持人許智傑 協商代表傅君琦 王鴻維羅志強 葛如君 柯建銘 吳世耀 陳培宇 黃國昌 張琦楷 陳昭之 黃珊珊 宣讀完畢請問院會對以上協商結論有異議沒有異議我們就"},{"start":27411.806,"end":27435.249,"text":"本案主條討論時 進一協商結論進行處理自動安全管理法 請宣讀第一章第一章總則宣讀完畢照審會章名通過 請宣讀第一條第一條 為積極推動國家自動安全政策 加速建構國家自動安全環境以保障國家安全 維護社會公共利益 特制定本法宣讀完畢照審會條文通過 請宣讀第二條"},{"start":27435.836,"end":27463.934,"text":"第二條本法是主管機關為數位發展部自動安全業務制執行由數位發展部指定資安專責機構辦理宣讀完畢第三條本法用詞定義如下依依自動系統只用以蒐集控制傳輸儲存流通刪除資訊或對資訊為其他處理使用或分享之系統而自動服務只與資訊之蒐集控制傳輸儲存流通刪除其他處理使用或分享升官之服務"},{"start":27464.654,"end":27483.184,"text":"三 自動安全 只防止自動系統或資訊遭受未經授權者存取、使用、控制、洩漏、破壞、篡改、收回或其他其性影響其機密性、完整性或可用性四 自動安全事件 指系統服務或網路狀態經鑑別而顯示可能有違反自動安全或保護措施"},{"start":27483.724,"end":27500.424,"text":"措施失效之狀態發生影響自動系統機能運作五 公務機關指依法行使公權令之中央地方機關構或公法人但不包括軍事機關及情報機關六 特定非公務機關指關鍵基礎設施提供者公營事業"},{"start":27500.985,"end":27529.927,"text":"特定裁判法人或受政府控制之事業團體或機構其關鍵基礎設施指示你或虛擬支撐系統或網路其功能一旦停止運作或效能降低對國家安全社會公共利益國民生活或經濟活動有重大影響之餘經行政院定期檢視並公告之領域八 關鍵基礎設施提供者指揮或提供關鍵基礎設施之全部或一部經中央目的事業主管機關決定並報行政院核定者"},{"start":27530.627,"end":27549.699,"text":"9 特定裁斷法人 指符合裁斷法人法第2條第2項 第3項或第63條 第1項第4項規定之裁斷法人並屬該法第2條第8項所定全國性裁斷法人者 指受政府控制之事業團體或機構 指全序目依公務人員退休資金撫恤法第77條第1項第2款"},{"start":27551.44,"end":27578.931,"text":"第三目及第四目公告指事業團體或機構具資通安全重要性經中央目的事業主管機關指定並經主管機關核定者其數地方政府控制者應經地方主管機關同意後主管機關取得核定十一 危害國家資通安全產品只經主管機關認定對國家資通安全具有直接或緊接造成危害風險影響政府運作或社會安定之資通系統服務或產品宣言完畢"},{"start":27579.747,"end":27608.366,"text":"照協商條文通過請宣讀第四條第四條為提升自動安全政府已提供資源整合民間及產業力量提升全民自動安全意識並推動效力事項一 自動安全專業人才之培育二 自動安全科技之研發成合應用產學合作及國際交流合作三 自動安全產業之發展四 自動安全軟硬體基礎規範相關服務及宣驗機制之發展五 協助民間處理應用及防範重大自動安全事件"},{"start":27608.866,"end":27631.822,"text":"前項相關事項是推動由主管機關擬定國家自動安全發展方案報警及救援核定後實施宣告完畢照審核條通過請宣讀第五條第五條為落實國家自動安全政策各政府機關中央及地方間應制定配合推動執行國家自動安全措施共同建構國家自動安全環境為辦理國家自動安全政策應變機制與重大計畫之諮詢審議協調各政府機關中央及地方間之自動安全相關事務"},{"start":27637.526,"end":27666.17,"text":"行政院應定期召開國家自動安全匯報由行政院院長或副院長擔任召集人得邀請專家學者及民間團體代表出席必要者的召開臨時會議其幕僚作業由主管機關辦理前向國家自動安全匯報決議設項相關政府部門應與執行由主管機關定期追蹤管考並得辦理績效平和第二項國家自動安全匯報是俗稱任務意識程序及其他相關事項之辦法由行政院定之宣言完畢"},{"start":27666.59,"end":27696.328,"text":"照审的会调通过请宣读第六条第六条主管机关应规划并推动国家自动安全政策自动安全科技方案国际交流合作及自动安全整体防护等相关事宜并应每年公布国家自动安全情势报告自动安全维护计划实施情形集合概况报告及国家自动安全发展方案情形安全事报告实施情形集合概况报告及国家自动安全发展方案应由主管机关送入立法院备查宣读完毕照审的会调通过请宣读第七条"},{"start":27696.724,"end":27725.667,"text":"第七條 公務機關及特定非公務機關應按其業務重要性與經理性機關曾其保有或處理之資訊種類 數量性質資通系統之規模及性質等條件保有出管機關核定或被查其資通安全責任等級公務機關及特定非公務機關應符合資通安全責任等級之要求並自管理技術認知及訓練等面向辦理資通安全防護措施前一項資通安全責任等級之區分基準核定或被查程序 便該申請"},{"start":27726.307,"end":27752.618,"text":"自動安全防護措施辦理項目內中專政委員這次的條件與配置及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之宣讀完畢造成了會條文通過其宣讀第八條第八條主管機關得定期或不定期集合公務機關及特定非公務機關之自動安全維護計畫實施進行前向集合後發現受集合機關自動安全維護計畫實施進行有缺失或待改善者受集合機關議題處改善報告公務機關受"},{"start":27754.018,"end":27773.819,"text":"將依第十四條規定收受及實施情形之機關特定廢物機關送交中央目的事業主管機關審查後由該審查機關送交主管機關前項收受改善報告之機關任有必要時的要求受及的機關進行說明或調整前三項自動安全維護計畫實施情形之結合頻率 內容與方法"},{"start":27774.219,"end":27800.018,"text":"改宣報告之提出及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第一項計劃由主管機關擬定年度計劃報請行政院核定後辦理年度計劃及年度成果報告應送交國家自動安全匯報被查宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第九條更正請宣讀第九條"},{"start":27803.022,"end":27819.267,"text":"請宣讀第九條第九條主管機關應建立自動安全情資分享機制前向自動安全情資之分析整合與分享之內容程序方法及其他相關事項是辦法由主管機關定之宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第十條"},{"start":27819.983,"end":27834.671,"text":"第十條公務機關或特定非公務機關與本法使用範圍內委外範理自動系統之限制為應貨自動服務之提供應選證適當之受託者要求受託者建立有效之自動安全管理機制並監督該機制之實施"},{"start":27835.171,"end":27863.14,"text":"其向受託者辦理受託業務之相關程序及環境應具備完善之自動安全管理措施或通過公正第三方驗證公務機關或特定非公務機關辦理第一項委員業務應與受託者簽訂書面契約在明雙方之權利義務及違約責任公務機關及特定非公務機關應配合主管機關之規劃辦理自動安全演練作業並是需要導入第三方協力機制演練內容及其他相關事項由主管機關定制宣傳完畢"},{"start":27863.8,"end":27877.305,"text":"照協商條文通過葛如君委員等提案第十一條不予採納請宣讀第二章第二章公務機關自動安全管理宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過請宣讀第十一條"},{"start":27877.864,"end":27904.631,"text":"第一十一條公務機關不得下載安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品其自行或危害營運場所提供公眾設定或使用之傳播設備及網際網路擷取服務與維護自動安全之必要時一同但因業務需求請勿其他替代方案者經該機關自動安全長即依第十四條規定收受及實施前行之機關自動安全長合格含保主管機關核定後得以重要方式使用並列冊管理"},{"start":27905.251,"end":27933.497,"text":"公務機關發配公務業務使用之資通訊設備不得下載 安裝或使用危害國家自動安全產品並應遵守相關法令規範但因業務需求 請由其他替代方案者轉用傾向單數規定辦理請按照有關危害國家自動安全產品的審查程序風險評估 請自分享使用限制及其他相關事項這辦法由主管機關或向有關機關擬定報請請經緣核定之宣讀完畢照協商條文通過 請宣讀第四條"},{"start":27934.212,"end":27961.748,"text":"第十二條公務機關應致自動安全長由機關首長指派副首長或適當人員兼任負責推動及監督機關內自動安全相關事務宣布完畢在審查會條文通過請宣讀第十三條第十三條公務機關應符合其所屬自動安全責任等級之要求並考量其所保有或處理之資訊種類數量限制自動系統之規模與限制等條件定定修正及實施自動安全維護計畫宣布完畢在審查會條文通過請宣讀第十四條"},{"start":27964.096,"end":27991.832,"text":"第十四條公務機關應每年向上級機關或監督機關提出自動安全維護計畫實施行刑無上級機關或監督機關者其自動安全維護計畫實施行刑因依下列個款規定辦理一 總統府國際安全會議請五院向主管機關提出二 直轄市政府直轄市議會縣市政府及縣市議會向主管機關提出三 直轄市山地原住民區公所直轄市山地原住民區民代表會向直轄市政府提出鄉鎮市公所鄉鎮市"},{"start":27994.033,"end":28017.627,"text":"民代表會向縣政府提出宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第十五條第十五條公務機關應及和其所屬所監督之公務機關所向鄉鎮市公所職場宣刪令援助民區公所及鄉鎮市民代表會職場宣刪令援助民區民代表會之自動安全維護計畫有實施進行宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第十六條"},{"start":28018.14,"end":28045.647,"text":"第十六條受淨核機關正式到安全維護計畫實施進行有缺失或待改善者應向淨核機關提出改善報告並由淨核機關聯同淨核結果應指定之方式送交主管機關淨核機關或主管機關任有必要時得要求受淨核機關進行說明或調整前三條決定向自動安全維護計畫必要事項實施進行之提出淨核製品類內容與方法結果之交付改善報告之提出及其他相關事項是辦法由主管機關定之宣傳完畢"},{"start":28049.009,"end":28070.047,"text":"第十七條公務機關為因應自動安全事件應訂定通報及應變機制公務機關執行自動安全事件時依項第十四條規定收受及實施情形之機關及主管機關通報公務機關依項前項受通報機關提出自動安全事件調查處理及改善報告前三項通報與應變機制之必要事項通報內容報告之提出"},{"start":28070.627,"end":28084.762,"text":"演練作業及其他相關事項是辦法由主管警衛定之第二項受通報機構窒息重大自動安全事件時得提供公務警官相關協助與身上實際病毒公告與事件相關事必要內容及應用措施宣讀完畢趙審他會條文通過請宣讀第18條"},{"start":28086.806,"end":28109.4,"text":"第十八條公務機關應符合其資通安全責任等級之要求適任資通安全專職人員辦理資通安全業務及應變處理所有人員辦理資通安全業務績效優良者應獲獎勵主管機關應妥善規劃推動專職人員之職能訓練尊敬其資通安全專業專能欲有重大資通安全事件主管機關的調度各級機關資通安全人員之原資"},{"start":28111.101,"end":28127.722,"text":"請按照人員獎勵 職能訓練 調度支援 績效 平衡 解齊等相關事項事辦法由主管機關定制宣讀完畢稍等會議條文通過賴瑞隆委員等 林俊憲委員等分別提案第三章張明軍不予採納請宣讀第49條"},{"start":28128.743,"end":28147.614,"text":"第十九條公務機關與必要者得對所屬自動安全專職人員知識的信進行查核主管機關等於自動安全人員任用考試榜式後對入企人員知識用信進行查核拒絕查核或遣額向查核結果金融人機關認定為通過者不得辦理涉及國家機密軍事機密及國防秘密及自動安全業務"},{"start":28148.434,"end":28174.95,"text":"前項人員職務的由用人機關經由內部管理及業務運作需要依法進行調整第一項及第二項查案介入由用人機關依相關規定保密處理並同為保護人不得以錯探用違反者是情節予以溢出有關查核權則機關應受查核人員查核程序內容及其他相關事項正版為由主管機關會上有關機關定製宣讀完畢造審會條文通過請宣讀第三章"},{"start":28175.427,"end":28181.234,"text":"第三章 特定非公務情況自動安全管理宣讀完畢趙省會張銘通過請宣讀第二十條"},{"start":28182.354,"end":28208.386,"text":"第20條 中央目的事業主管機關應與徵詢相關公務機關民間團體專家學者之意見後指定關鍵基礎設施提供者送由主管機關報警行政院核定並以書面通知受核定者關鍵基礎設施提供者應符合其所屬自通安全責任等其之要求設置自通安全專職人員並考量其所保有或處理之資訊種類數量性質自通系統之規模與性質等條件訂定修正及實施自通安全維護計畫"},{"start":28209.806,"end":28231.378,"text":"關鍵基礎設施提供者影響中央目的事業主管機關提出自動安全維護計畫實施情形中央目的事業主管機關依從和考量鎖管關鍵基礎設施提供者業務之重要性與機敏性自動系統之規模性質自動安全事件發生之頻率程度及其他與自動安全相關之因素定期集合其自動安全維護計畫之實施情形"},{"start":28232.238,"end":28248.97,"text":"關鍵基礎設施提供者致資能安全維護計畫實施情形有缺失或待改善者應向中央目的事業主管機關提出改善報告中央目的事業主管機關因應決定之方式將計劃結果及改善報告送交主管機關宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第21條"},{"start":28250.236,"end":28274.203,"text":"第21條 關鍵基礎設施提供者以外支持特定非公務機關應符合其所屬自通安全責任等機制要求設置自通安全專職人員並考量其所保有或所持資訊種類數量性質自通系統之規模與性質的條件訂定修正及實施自通安全維護計畫中央目的事業主管機關的要求鎖管前項特定非公務機關提出自通安全維護計畫實施進行"},{"start":28275.763,"end":28292.983,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關得經合損壞定向特定非公務機關之資產安全維護計畫實施行刑發現有缺失或待改善者應現其要求受經合之特定非公務機關提出改善報告中央目的事業主管機關因應決定之方式將經合及武器改善報告送交主管機關宣讀完畢"},{"start":28296.502,"end":28314.211,"text":"第二十二條 整個條文指通安全維護計畫之必要事項實施情形之提出進而治病率 內容與方法的結果之交付來生報告之提出及其他醫療形式的治療辦法由中央目的事業主管機關擬定 報由中央機關核定宣讀完畢主要審查會條文通過 請宣讀第二十三條"},{"start":28314.946,"end":28327.38,"text":"第六十三條 特定非公務機關印製自動安全帳由特定非公務機關之代表人 管理人及其他有代表權人或其舉辦之適當人員擔任負責推動及監督機關內自動安全相關事務 宣讀完畢照審會條文通過 請宣讀第24條"},{"start":28330.373,"end":28349.442,"text":"第二十四條特定非公務機關未因自動安全事件因丁令通報僅一遍期制特定非公務機關與窒息自動安全事件時應向中央目的事業主管機關通報特定非公務機關應向中央目的事業主管機關提出自動安全事件調查處理及改善報告如為重大自動安全事件準並應送交主管機關"},{"start":28350.402,"end":28373.774,"text":"前三項通報與應變機制之必要事項通報內容包括是提出送交演練作業及其等應遵行事項值班法有主管機關定制中央物力事業主管機關或主管機關執行重大私通安全事件時應提供必要之協助與腎臟死疾病的公告與事件相關之必要內容及因應措施宣讀完畢造審會條文通過請宣讀第25條"},{"start":28375,"end":28402.266,"text":"第25條 中央目的事業主管機關誤調查特定非公務機關發生之重大自動安全事件得依下令程序辦理一 通知當事人或關係人到場陳述意見二 通知當事人及關係人提出獨立第三方機構處局之鑑識或調查報告三 判員委任或委託其他機關各部請往當事人及關係人之處所指示票之檢查前項鎖定關係人以該項特定非公務機關委託辦理自動系統之鑑識"},{"start":28404.547,"end":28431.408,"text":"為運貨諮通服務提供之受託者請與重大諮通安全事件相關者違憲當事人或關係者對於中央目的事業主管機關亦定向所謂之調查部的規避 防禦或拒絕執行調查證人員應出示有關執行局務之證明文件其未出示者受調查者得拒絕之定向第三款受委任或委託之機關構對於辦理受任或受託事務所獲悉特定非公務機關之秘密不得洩露宣討完畢"},{"start":28432.93,"end":28450.389,"text":"照協商條文通過羅美玲委員等提案第25條不予採納請宣讀第26條第26條特地非公務機關隊與所屬人員辦理自動安全業務績效優良者應用獎勵宣讀完畢照審査會條文通過請宣讀第27條"},{"start":28451.653,"end":28472.271,"text":"第27條 中央目的事業主管機關隊特定非公務機關下載安全或使用危害國家自動安全產品的予以限制或禁止特定非公務機關自行或委員營利場所提供公眾式應用使用之全部設備及網際網路接取服務與維護自動安全之必要時一同但因業務需求請勿其他替代方案者"},{"start":28473.011,"end":28501.161,"text":"經該特定非公務機關自動安全掌核可函報中央目的事業主管機關核定後得以專案方式使用並列冊管理前向對特定非公務機關限制或禁止使用危害國家自動安全產品之管控措施由中央目的事業主管機關訂定報主管機關被查宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第四章第四章罰則宣讀完畢照審查會章敏通過請宣讀第28條"},{"start":28502.196,"end":28522.591,"text":"第二十八條 公務警官所屬人員未依本法規定辦理者 應按其情節輕重役相關規定予以懲戒或懲處此項懲處事項就本法由主管警官定之特定非公務警官所屬人員未依本法規定辦理情節重大者 由特定非公務警官依規定予以懲處宣讀完畢在審議會條文通過 請宣讀第二十九條"},{"start":28523.342,"end":28536.833,"text":"第二十九條特定非公務機關位移第二十四條第二項規定通報自動安全事件由中央目的事業主管機關處信臺幣三十萬元以上一千萬元以下發完並另欠其改正皆其外改正則案自處罰之宣讀完畢"},{"start":28539.417,"end":28568.524,"text":"第三十條特定非公務機關有項鍊前行追憶者由中央目的事業主管機關另限其改正這期為改正者按次除信貸必須為原商五百美元下返還一 唯一第二十條第二項或第二十一條第一項規定訂定停止或訂定修正或實施自動安全維護計畫或違反第二十二條所定辦法中有關自動安全維護計畫必要實施規定二 唯一第二十條第三項或第二十一條第二項規定向中央目的事業主管機關提出自動安全維護計畫就實施進行"},{"start":28569.684,"end":28586.372,"text":"勿違反第22條鎖定辦法中有關自動安全維護計畫實施進行提出之規定三 為以第8條 第2項 第20條 第5項或第21條 第3項規定提出改善報告送交中央目的事業主管機關勿違反第22條鎖定辦法中有關改善報告提出之規定"},{"start":28586.892,"end":28615.229,"text":"四 未依第24條第一項規定訂定自動安全事件之通報及應變機制或違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關通報及應變機制必要事項之規定五 未依第24條第三項規定將中央目的事業主管機關提出或向主管機關送交自動安全事件之調查處理及改善報告或違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關報告提出送交之規定六 違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關通報內容演練作業之規定"},{"start":28616.65,"end":28636.08,"text":"宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第31條第31條違反第25條第三項規定規避港岸或拒絕調查者由中央目的事業主管警官處心在必須為原商以保衛原價罰款宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第5章第5章負責宣讀完畢照審查會章名通過請宣讀第32條"},{"start":28637.233,"end":28657.481,"text":"第三条 主管机关的委托企划其他公务机关法人或团体办理自动安全整体防护演练 集合国际教育合作及其他自动安全相关事务前项是委托公务机关法人或团体不得洩露办理相关事务过程中所执行之秘密特定非公务机关这业务涉及数个中央问题事业主管机关之权则"},{"start":28658.021,"end":28668.916,"text":"主管機關的協調指定其中一個或數個中央目的事業主管機關單獨或共同辦理本法所定中央目的事業主管機關應辦理之事項宣讀完畢"},{"start":28673.174,"end":28700.567,"text":"第三十三條本法鎖定自通安全事件涉及個人資料外洩時公務機關及特定非公務機關應另依個人資料保護法及其相關法令規定辦理宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過林郡縣委員等提案第五章張明不予採納請宣讀第三十四條第三十四條本法適行系則由主管機關定制宣讀完畢照審查會條文通過請宣讀第三十五條"},{"start":28701.109,"end":28718.406,"text":"第三十五條文法實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢趙審查會條文通過報言會我們全案已經經過二讀現在由民進黨黨團提議繼續進行三讀請問院會有異議沒有異議我們請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":28721.092,"end":28739.424,"text":"第一章总则第一条为积极推动国家自动安全政策加速进入国家自动安全环境以保障国家安全维护社会公共利益特制定本法第二条本法是主管经纬为数位发展部自动安全业务是执行由数位发展部指定资安捐赠机关办理"},{"start":28742.096,"end":28770.914,"text":"第三條本法用詞定如下一 自動系統只用以蒐集 控制 傳輸 儲存 流通刪除資訊或對資訊為其他處理 使用或分享之系統二 自動服務只與資訊之蒐集 控制 傳輸 儲存 流通刪除其他處理 使用或分享相關之服務三 自動安全只防止自動系統或資訊遭受未經授權之存取 使用 控制 洩漏破壞 篡改 銷毀或其他進行影響及機密性 完全行為可用性"},{"start":28771.474,"end":28793.666,"text":"四 自动安全事件指系统服务或网络状态经鉴别而显示可能有违反自动安全或保护措施失效之状态发生影响自动系统进而运作五 公务机关指依法行使公权利之中央地方机关购物或公法人但不包括军事机关及情报机关六 特定非公务机关指关键基础"},{"start":28794.886,"end":28822.993,"text":"設施提供者供應事業特定產權款人或受政府控制之事業團體或機構其關鍵基礎設施則是提供虛擬資產 系統或網路其功能一旦停止運作或效能降低對國家安全社會公共利益國民生活或經濟活動有重大影響之餘經行政院定期檢視並公告這領域八 關鍵基礎設施提供者指揮或提供關鍵基礎設施之全幕後一部經中央目的事業主管機關指定並報行政院核定者"},{"start":28823.953,"end":28835.441,"text":"9.特定残缺法人及符合残缺法人法第2条第2项第3项或第63条第1项第4项规定之残缺法人并属该法第2条第8项锁定全国性残缺法人者10."},{"start":28835.441,"end":28847.63,"text":"受政府控制之事业、团体或机构则循序不依公务人员退休自己的服务法第77条第1项第2款第3目及第4目公告之事业、团体或机构具自动安全重要性"},{"start":28848.01,"end":28868.949,"text":"经中央目的区业主管机关指定并经主管机关核定者其受地方政府控制者应经地方主管机关统一后主管机关取得核定十一 危害国家自动安全产品只经主管机关认定对国家自动安全具有直接或直接造成危害风险影响政府运作或社会安定制自动系统服务或产品"},{"start":28870.851,"end":28891.946,"text":"第四條 為提升自動安全政府應提供資源 整合民間及產業力量提升全民自動安全意識並推動下列事項一 自動安全專業人才之培育二 自動安全科技之研發整合應用成全和做起國際交流合作三 自動安全產業之發展四 自動安全軟硬體技術規範成功服務及審驗機制之發展"},{"start":28892.446,"end":28902.705,"text":"五 協助民間處理因應及防範重大自動安全事件前向相關事項之推動由優管機關擬定國家自動安全發展方案報請經紀院核定後實施"},{"start":28904.434,"end":28925.8,"text":"第五條 為落實國家自動安全政策各政府機關 中央及地方間應致力配合推動執行國家自動安全措施共同建構國家自動安全環境為辦理國家自動安全政策應變建設與中大計畫之諮詢審議協調各政府機關 中央及地方間的自動安全相關事務"},{"start":28926.42,"end":28946.14,"text":"行政院因定期召開國家自動安全會報由行政院院長或副院長擔任召集人得邀請專家學者及民間團體代表出席必要時的召開臨時會議其幕僚作業由主管機關辦理其向國家自動安全會報決議事項參觀政府部門英語之心由主管機關定期追蹤管考並得分履跡象平和"},{"start":28947.541,"end":28972.16,"text":"第二項國家自動安全匯報之主稱任務議事程序及其他相關事項之辦法由行政院定之第六條主管機關應規劃並推動國家自動安全政策自動安全科技發展國際交流合作及自動安全整體防護等相關事宜並因每年公佈國家自動安全情勢報告自動安全維護計畫實施情形結合概況報告及國家自動安全發展方案"},{"start":28972.66,"end":28997.347,"text":"前項情勢報告實施進行結合更換報告及故鄉自動安全發展方案應由主管機關送立法院被查第七條公務機關及特定非公務機關應按其業務中要限與機密性機關曾及某有或處理之資訊種類數量性質資通系統之規模及性質等條件某有主管機關核定或被查其自動安全責任等級"},{"start":28998.127,"end":29015.432,"text":"公務機關及特定非公務機關應符合自動安全責任等級之要求並自管理技術認知值訓練等面向辦理自動安全防護措施請按照自動安全責任等級之區分基準核定或被查程序並該申請自動安全防護措施辦理項目內容專人"},{"start":29017.032,"end":29039.06,"text":"专职援职资格条件与配置及其他相关事项之办法由主管机关定之第八条主管机关得定即或不定期集合公务机关及特定非公务机关之自动安全维护计划实施情形前项集合后发现受集合机关自动安全维护计划实施情形有缺失或待改善者受集合机关议题主改审报告"},{"start":29039.46,"end":29068.349,"text":"公務機關送交1第14條規定收受及實施情形之機關特定廢物機關送交中央目的事業主管機關審查後由該審查機關送交主管機關前項收受改善報告之機關是有必要時得要求受計和機關進行說明或調整前三項自動安全服務計畫實施情形之計和頻率內容與方法改善報告之題書及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第一項計和由主管機關擬定年度計畫報警請在月合定後辦理"},{"start":29068.849,"end":29073.248,"text":"年度計畫及年度成果報告因送教國家自動安全匯報被查"},{"start":29076.334,"end":29099.131,"text":"第九條 主管機關應建立自動安全情資分享機制此項自動安全情資之分析整合與分享之內容程序方法及其他相關事項之本法由主管機關定之第十條 公務機關獲得營費公務機關與本法使用範圍內委外辦理自動系統之限制維護或自動服務之提供應權任事當之受託者"},{"start":29099.531,"end":29126.317,"text":"要求受託者建立有效之自動安全管理機制並監督該機制的實施前向受託者辦理受託業務之相關程序及環境應具備完善之自動安全管理措施或通過公正第三方驗證公務機關或特定非公務機關辦理第一項委員業務應與受託者簽訂書面契約在明雙方之權利義務及維園責任公務機關及特定非公務機關應配合主管機關之規劃辦理自動安全演練作業"},{"start":29127.118,"end":29131.415,"text":"並且需要導入第三方協力機制演練內容及其他相關事項由主管機關定制"},{"start":29133.757,"end":29160.203,"text":"第二章 公務機關自動安全管理第十一條 公務機關不得下增安裝互行危害國家自動安全產品其自行或委員營域場所提供公眾式利用這全部設備及網路接取服務與維護自動安全之必要選一同但因業務需求且無其他替代方案者即應該機關自動安全長及第十四條規定訴訟及實施情形之機關自動安全長合格"},{"start":29160.703,"end":29189.277,"text":"函报主管机关核定后得以专案方式使用并列册管理公务机关发配公务业务使用之自动讯设备不得下载安装或使用危害国家自动安全产品并应遵守相关法律规范单因业务需求请无其他替代方案者准用前项单数规定办理前项项有关危害国家自动安全产品就审查程序风险评估 情资分享使用限制及其他相关事项之奔放由主管机关会商与有关机关领定报警 刑警员核定之"},{"start":29190.578,"end":29215.741,"text":"第十二條公務機關應職資通安全長由機關首長准派副首長或事大人員兼任負責推動及監督機關內資通安全相關事務第十三條公務機關應符合其所屬資通安全責任等求職要求並考量其所保有或處理之資訊種類數量性質資通系統之規模與性質等條件列定修正及實施資通安全維護計畫"},{"start":29218.45,"end":29236.707,"text":"第十四條公務機關應每年向上級機關或監督機關提出自動安全維護計畫實施進行無上級機關或監督機關者其自動安全維護計畫實施進行應一 下列各管規定辦理一 總統府 國家安全會議及委員會向主管機關提出二 直轄市政府 直轄市議會縣市政府及縣市議會向主管機關提出"},{"start":29240.51,"end":29266.176,"text":"三指向市山地原住民區公所指向市山地原住民區民代表會向指向市政府提出鄉鎮市公所鄉鎮市民代表會向縣政府提出第十五條公務機關應藉其所屬所監督之公務機關所向鄉鎮市公所指向市山地原住民區公所及鄉鎮市民代表會指向市山地原住民區民代表會致贈安全維護計畫實施清新"},{"start":29268.536,"end":29295.934,"text":"第十六條受計核機關制自動安全維護計劃實施情形有缺失或待改善者應向計核機關提出改善報告並由計核機關聯同計核結果依指定之方式送交主管機關計核機關或主管機關任有必要時得要求受計核機關進行證明或調整前三條解定向自動安全維護計劃必要事項實施情形之提出計核制品率內容與方法的結果之交付改善報告之提出及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":29297.768,"end":29313.751,"text":"第十七條公務機關未因應自動安全事件因電力通報前應變機制公務機關執行自動安全事件時應向第十四條規定收受及實施緊急之機關及主管機關通報公務機關應向前向受通報機關提出自動安全事件調查處理及改善報告"},{"start":29314.292,"end":29331.369,"text":"前三項通報與應變機制之必要事項通報點中報告是提出演練組也請其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第二項受通報機關之系重大資通安全事件時得提供公務機關相關協助於適當時機並得公告與事件相關之必要內容及因應措施"},{"start":29332.891,"end":29355.809,"text":"第十八條公務機關應符合其自動安全責任等局勢要求設置自動安全專責人員辦理自動安全業務及應變處理所屬人員辦理自動安全業務及向有良者應予獎勵主管機關應妥善規劃推動專職人員職能訓練增進其自動安全專業職能欲有重大自動安全事件主管機關的調度各級機關自動安全人員之言之"},{"start":29357.45,"end":29383.504,"text":"檢核商人員獎勵職能訓練調度職員績效平衡及其他相關事項之辦法由主管機關定之第十九條公務機關與必要時得對所屬自動安全專職人員之試驗性進行查核主管機關等於自動安全任用考試榜式後對入職人員之試驗性進行查核拒絕懲惡或嫌惡效超越結果侵入人請問認定未通過者不得辦理涉及國家階密軍事機密及國防秘密之自動安全業務"},{"start":29384.444,"end":29408.129,"text":"前項人員職務的由用人機關基於內部管理及應務運作需要依法進行調整第一項及第二項常會揭露由用人機關依相關規定保密處理並同為保管不得已作他用違反者是請解於以處有關查核權責機關應受性和人員查核者需內容及其他相關事項之辦法由儲管機關會商有關機關定之"},{"start":29411.724,"end":29428.986,"text":"第三章特定非公務機關自動安全管理第20條中央目的事業主管機關應與政學相關公務機關民間團體專家學者之意見後指定關鍵基礎設施提供者送由中央機關報請行政院核定並以書面通知受核定者"},{"start":29429.646,"end":29451.132,"text":"关键基础设施提供者应符合其所属自动安全责任等级制要求设置自动安全专职人员并考量其所包含或处理之资讯种类数量性质 自动系统规模与性质等条件定定修正及实施自动安全维护计划关键基础设施提供者应向中央目的事业主管请问提出自动安全维护计划实施情形"},{"start":29452.092,"end":29476.463,"text":"中央目的區的主管機關應考量應綜合考量所管關鍵基礎設施提供者業務之重要性與親民性資訊系統之規模性之自動安全事件發生之頻率程度及其他與自動安全相關之因素定期進入其自動安全維護計畫之實施情形關鍵基礎設施提供者之自動安全維護計畫實施情形有缺失或待改善者"},{"start":29477.935,"end":29486.321,"text":"因向中央目的事業主管機關提出改善報告中央目的事業主管機關因應決定之方式將計劃及國際改善報告送交主管機關"},{"start":29488.823,"end":29511.835,"text":"第21條 關鍵基礎設施提供10萬支特定非公務機關應符合其所屬自動安全責任等級之要求設置自動安全專職人員並考量其所保有或處理之資訊種類數量限制 自動系統之規模與性質等條件訂定修正及實施自動安全維護計畫中央目的區域主管機關等要求所管其上的特定非公務機關提出自動安全維護計畫實施進行"},{"start":29513.576,"end":29530.682,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關等競合所管第一項特定非公務機關之自動安全維護計畫實施進行發現有缺失或帶改善者因限期要求受驚而致特定非公務機關提出改善報告中央目的事業主管機關因指定之方式將競合結果及改善報告送交主管機關"},{"start":29532.563,"end":29546.153,"text":"第22條 前二條自動安全維護計畫之必要事項實施情形之提出侵害制品類內容與方法 結果之交互補改善報告之提出及其他應遵行事項侵犯法由中央目的事業主管機關聯定報由主管機關核定"},{"start":29547.714,"end":29562.668,"text":"第23條特定非公務機關英製資料安全證由特定非公務機關證代表人管理人其他有代表權人或其指派之適當人員擔任負責推動及監督機關內自動安全相關事務"},{"start":29566.021,"end":29594.669,"text":"第24條 特定非公務機關未引資通安全事件應定定通報及應變機制特定非公務機關與窒息資通安全事件時應向中央目的事業主管機關通報特定非公務機關應向中央目的事業主管機關提出資通安全事件調查處理及改善報告如違重大資通安全事件者並應送交主管機關前三項通報與應變機制是必要設項通報內容報告是提出送交演練作業及其他應遵行事項這辦法由主管機關定制"},{"start":29595.149,"end":29613.147,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關或主管機關執行重大子彈安全事件時應提供必要者協助與上當時疾病的公告與事件相關之必要內容及因應措施第25條中央目的事業主管機關為調查特定飛空機關發生之重大子彈安全事件"},{"start":29613.567,"end":29635.638,"text":"等依家里程序办理一 通知当事人或关系人到场呈出意见二 通知当事人及关系人提出独立第三方机构处局之建设或调查报告三 派员委任或委托其他机关构前往当事人及关系人之处所实施必要之检查其向所定关系人以该项特定分析公务机关委托办理自通系统之建制"},{"start":29636.258,"end":29664.339,"text":"微运或自通服务提供至受托者且与重大自动安全事件相关者违宪当事人或关系人对于中央问题事业主管机关依听项所谓之调查不得规避 妨碍或拒绝执行调查证据原因出示有关执行之物证明文件其外出示者受调查者得拒绝之第一项第三环受委任或委托之捐购对于办理受任或受托事务所获悉特定非公务机关之秘密不得泄露"},{"start":29667.037,"end":29672.469,"text":"第26條特定非公務機關對於所屬人員辦理自動安全業務績效有良者應與獎勵"},{"start":29675.765,"end":29696.634,"text":"第二十七条中央目的事业主管机关对特定非公务机关下载安装或使用危害国家自动安全产品等予以限制或禁止特定非公务机关自行或委外营域场所提供公众、市民或使用者传播设备及网信网络窃取服务与维护自动安全是必要时一同但因业务需求且无其他替代方案者"},{"start":29697.434,"end":29719.599,"text":"經該特定非公務機關制度安全長核可還報中央目的事業主管機關核定後得以專案方式使用並列冊管理前項對特定非公務機關限制或禁止使用危害國家資格安全產品之管控措施由中央目的事業主管機關訂定報主管機關備查第四章 罰則"},{"start":29722.256,"end":29740.211,"text":"第28條公務警官所屬人員未依本法規定辦理者應按其情節輕重依相關規定予以懲戒或懲處前項懲處事項之辦法由主管機關定之特定非公務警官所屬人員未依本法規定辦理情節重大者由特定非公務警官依規定予以懲處"},{"start":29742.594,"end":29756.284,"text":"第29條 特定非公務機關違第24條第二項規定通報自動安全事件由中央目的事業主管機關處信貸幣30萬元上億千萬元相還並另限其改正及其為改正者按次處罰之"},{"start":29757.765,"end":29781.844,"text":"第三十條特定非公務金融有下列情形之一者由中央目的事業主管儘管另一線即改正進行未改正者恩賜除新台幣10萬元以上500萬元相發還一 未依第20條第二項或第21條第一項規定訂定修正或實施自動安全維護計畫或違反第22條鎖定辦法中有關自動安全維護計畫必要時長職規定二 未依第20條第三項或第21條第二項規定"},{"start":29783.585,"end":29805.358,"text":"將中央目的事業主管機關提出自動安全維護計畫就實施進行或違反第22條鎖定辦法中有關自動安全維護計畫實施進行提出之規定增為第8條第2項第20條第5項或第21條第3項規定提出改善報告送交中央目的事業主管機關或違反第22條鎖定辦法中有關改善報告提出之規定"},{"start":29806.438,"end":29816.926,"text":"4.唯一第24條第1項規定定定自動安全事件之通報及應變機制互違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關通報及應變機制必要事項之規定5."},{"start":29816.926,"end":29830.837,"text":"唯一第24條第3項規定向中央目的事業主管機關提出或向主管機關送交自動安全事件之調查處理及改善報告互違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關報告提出送交之規定6."},{"start":29830.837,"end":29834.299,"text":"違反第24條第4項鎖定辦法中有關通報內容演練作業之規定"},{"start":29837.472,"end":29847.621,"text":"第三十一条违反第二十五条第三项规定未必可能或拒绝调查者由中央目的事业主管金管处信贷币十万元以上一百万元以下罚款"},{"start":29849.693,"end":29875.955,"text":"第五章 負責第32條主管機關等委託其他公務機關法人或團體辦理自動安全整理防護演練集合國際教育合作及其他自動安全相關事務其銷售委託之公務機關法人或團體不能泄露本領相關事務過程中所持續之秘密特定非公務機關之業務涉及的數個中央目的區域主管機關之權責主管機關得協調指定其中一個或數個"},{"start":29876.736,"end":29895.946,"text":"中央目的事業主管機關單獨或共同辦理本法所定中央目的事業主管機關應辦理之事項第三十三條本法所定自動安全事件涉及個人資料或現實公務機關及特定非公務機關應另依個人資料保護法及其相關法令規定辦理"},{"start":29898.607,"end":29917.869,"text":"第34條本法實行細則由主管機關定之第35條本法實行日期由行政院定之宣讀完畢報告委員會我們三讀條文已宣讀完畢請問委員會有文字修正沒有文字修正我們現在做以下決議資通安全管理法修正通過"},{"start":29920.612,"end":29947.179,"text":"官員會本法條及條文中引用之條次授權議事人員調整我們現在繼續處理審查會通過之附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內通過附帶決議一項要求數位發展部需於總統公佈後六個月內完成相關執法擬定並於自通安全管理法公佈施行時已並施行避免出現法律真空影響國家自通安全宣讀完畢"},{"start":29953.53,"end":29977.365,"text":"本會議照協商結論我們照案通過繼續處理審查通過之附帶決議請議事人員宣讀附帶決議之內容本會議照協商結論我們照案通過我們現在處理附議案兩件繼續處理請先後順序處理請議事人員宣讀立案"},{"start":29978.308,"end":29994.16,"text":"本院民进党党员针对第26次会议报告事项第22案台湾民众党党团凝聚刑事诉讼法第93条及第101条条文修正查案因为所作决定提出赋予宣读完毕我们现在做以下决定另定其处理请继续宣读第二案"},{"start":29995.117,"end":30024.86,"text":"本月民进党党团针对第27次会议报告事项第48案台湾民众党团拟据公民投票法第23条条文修正草案院会所作决定提出复议宣读完毕我们做以下决定令定期处理报院会今天在散会之前向大家报告国瑜首先要感谢所有党团干部及所有的立法委员在这个会期内虽然有不同的理念但是透过党团沟通协调最后仍然能够前进"},{"start":30025.38,"end":30051.048,"text":"推進透過很多福國利民的重要議案第十一屆第三會期會至八月三十一指截至今天院會一共處理通過七十七個重大議案包括法律案四十一案欲決算案十八案副議案四案人事同意權一案本院內歸議案及其他議案十二案"},{"start":30052.577,"end":30076.313,"text":"尤其其中重中之重是通過了丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例及特別預算在黨團幹部及全體委員不分黨派共同努力之下迅速完成三讀務用以推動災區各項復原重建的工作 此案深具意義"},{"start":30077.173,"end":30101.582,"text":"歸於在此,要再一次呼籲,民主政治得來不易,相互尊重,減少惡意,保持理性,良善溝通,是保持民主政治的重要元素。下星期就是第四會期了,再次請朝野都能放下旗艦,正視臺灣所遇到的國內外種種衝擊,共同尋找解方。"},{"start":30102.242,"end":30126.047,"text":"一起攜手努力最後要特別感謝本院的同仁議事夥伴所有的辛勞以及政府各部會協力來幫助我們工作同仁所做的共同努力為我們的國家與人民謀求最大的福祉再次感謝大家我們今天的院會散會"},{"start":30134.489,"end":30135.471,"text":"主委长来了 欢迎"}]}},{"id":"163777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/324b88563d49edfb7c5f3ec34c7d403ea9f80d35c8e93ae4bb6074300d452d767bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:51:53 - 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府會同仁 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請宣讀"},{"start":214.369,"end":231.686,"text":"民進黨黨團修正動議第三條本條例鎖定強化經濟 社會 民眾消費及國土安全任性措施之項目如下一 提供企業金融支持二 提升產業集中力三 協助企業開拓多元市場四 支持勞工安定就業五 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他們的交通建設謝謝蔡議員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1419,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時34分）院長、各位立法院的同仁。發生在7月6號的丹娜絲颱風是120年來第一個從嘉義布袋登陸的颱風，這個颱風讓整個災區產生了7萬3,487戶停水、家用電話有1萬2,296戶沒辦法使用。再來，在台電的部分，斷掉3,499支電桿，以及3座特高壓電塔，還有1,313座的行動基地臺，還有100萬6,864戶停電，這麼恐怖的數字在在呈現了這次丹娜絲颱風帶來的影響，殊不知在復原的同時，7月28日又來一個強降雨，這個強降雨在5天的時間就為高雄地區帶來了2,785公釐的雨量，已經直逼莫拉克風災。這些災害除了讓災民的家裡被破壞，也讓我們的農、水產品受到很大的損害，所以直至今日，還有很多災區的第四台還沒恢復，還有很多鄉鎮的路燈也還沒辦法修復，還有很多人的屋頂都需要來修繕。","所以我們很感謝這次通過600億的特別預算，可以說是朝野用最快的時間、最理性的態度一起來幫助災區，我們有很多工作要做，包括省道的電纜地下化，包括我們要讓這些水稻、虱目魚、文旦落果有現金的救助，還有這些溫網室，包括香蕉、酪梨等多年生作物，我們也要給予產業輔導，此外，我們也有很多水利措施要來加強，還有很多，包括我們災區的交通建設，都要趁這次機會來做復原。所以再次感謝大家，這筆預算對我們災區是最大的幫忙，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員發言。","接下來請登記最後一位王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":39,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-27","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-29"],"gazette_id":"1147501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第27次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147501_00001"}}},{"id":"163766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/324b88563d49edfbdffca25025b6bfaca9f80d35c8e93ae4aa0a86494a3daaa49aa7beedfef2e22d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:31:48 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到時候我們的那個交通委員會這邊也會也會有這些資訊 那另外的話整個的整個的補貼 因為它就是一個補貼那相關的這些費用的話也會在工程會的工程會裡面本來就會把關 那另外的話在主計審計的程序裡面也會做處理"},{"start":2215.087,"end":2232.979,"text":"所以那這些問題是要經同意的話因為我們後續因為在這復原的時程相當在時間上相當迫切所以希望說並同意後這幾個字刪掉好 謝謝你 主委那這個是台灣民眾黨團所提所以我要問一下黃總召好嗎好 黃總召請 表達意見"},{"start":2234.807,"end":2247.156,"text":"沒有辦法同意我才動30%而已請你提一個書面報告來因為我現在其實看了這個案子我是很困惑三大電信業者一年賺多少錢"},{"start":2247.99,"end":2275.648,"text":"是 那個跟委員然後每一個Cable system一年賺多少錢是那個都是現金流很高的行業是 那個跟委員報告因為這個其實不是那個現金流的問題而是說因為這一部分因為當時我們在寫研議的時候是有兩個目標一個就是加速他們的這個復研的進度因為故宮要跟人家要多增加這些公元啊什麼的可能要多花一點不然我再講一個啦第一個是"},{"start":2276.808,"end":2298.817,"text":"這些電信業者他們依照契約義務他們跟人家收錢他跟客戶收錢他的服務沒有辦法提供他當然就要自己花錢去把他的服務可以提供那錢是他們在賺然後他們修復的費用納稅人在補"},{"start":2300.149,"end":2308.737,"text":"這是哪門之道理 我完全聽不懂啊跟委員報告前幾天大概有跟在報紙上我也結論一個就是加速復原"},{"start":2309.997,"end":2335.445,"text":"第二個就是因應極端氣候下我們的基礎建設因為本來像比如說這次損害最嚴重的就是鐵塔因為在南部一個鐵塔它可以涵蓋的範圍非常大那這一次因為我們當時要求的那個風災的係數是15級那以後我們要求它如果假設你能夠建到17級的話那我們就可以補貼你這部分的費用也就是說加重它對嘛 所以沒有關係嘛"},{"start":2337.97,"end":2364.489,"text":"我們已經很有善意了我半毛錢都沒有刪我只動你30%請你拿一個報告我們看一看這個錢是不是真的合理那還是現在NCCA打算用情緒勒索的不會是情緒勒索你敢動任何一塊錢的話就是不救災謝謝謝謝黃總導發言謝謝黃竹密的答覆我們接下來請吳世堯幹事長請發言"},{"start":2366.025,"end":2384.513,"text":"我比較想要請教一下我看到這個提案我也很困惑就我比較想知道說委員提案要有合理正當的理由我們尊重大家的嚴格審查但也要合理監督那我想請NCC來說明一下因為這一筆如果委員認為他只是動三層"},{"start":2385.894,"end":2414.4,"text":"但我想知道如果動了這三成會造成我最在乎的是對於災民災區重建他在使用在享受這些電信系統提供的服務會不會受到什麼影響我在乎的是災民的生活會不會受到影響的這件事即便只是動三成我認為這三成也很珍貴啦所以要說明一下好嗎否則我也很困惑看到這個提案有進一步要釐清的必要好嗎"},{"start":2416.562,"end":2432.099,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前整個的復原其實都在進行當中特別是說南部有些區域譬如說鐵塔倒了之後它所涵蓋的區域其實我們目前大概都是有電信公司派行動基地台再去做補系這樣子的話其實它不能夠其實是不太能夠"},{"start":2435.602,"end":2441.925,"text":"因應長期的這個需要那另外的話像過去的話我們很多這些在鄉下這些電纜還有我們那個遠傳跟那個台哥大他們過去掛在台電桿上面的這些設施其實這些都必須要有一些比較比較前瞻的或者說比較寬裕的時間讓他們能夠儘快的因應各式各樣的狀況能夠來"},{"start":2459.231,"end":2465.956,"text":"來僱用這些工人或者是購買這些器材能夠加速它整個復原的動作而不是像目前都只是靠行動基地台靠臨時去拉線去做補繫那我是覺得是說因為這個整個的程序未來在經費上面其實都還會有後續的這些組計跟審計的程序甚至於工程會那邊對於我們所列的這些項目其實他們都會做審查那個不會浪費掉救災救難都是"},{"start":2488.65,"end":2511.202,"text":"比誰都急因為是災區需要災民生活需要所以說用凍結的方式某種程度就是而且剛剛委員想他我們想要溝通希望能夠並同意後本來是說提報告但是如果委員硬要加並同意後才能夠去支用後續的30我是比較擔心對於後續的救災的效率"},{"start":2512.332,"end":2519.08,"text":"的這個部分啦所以這個要做提醒啦好不好我是覺得這個案子還真的要再斟酌一下也好謝謝柯總召請發言"},{"start":2524.272,"end":2543.346,"text":"這個案子剛才也說明很清楚這只要加速復原在這裡就拜託黃國昌委員我們監督是必要的但是命進同意那個是不是個必要加速復原對不起啦 我沒有辦法同意啦"},{"start":2544.167,"end":2565.656,"text":"沒關系 柯總召發言完畢之後我會請國民黨團看有沒有意見如果沒有意見我就要裁決了 好不好柯總召請發言我還是在這裡懇請拜託黃總召我們是要加設護員嘛所以命中同意這個拿掉還是可以監督所有審計什麼那個都是一樣的嘛"},{"start":2567.742,"end":2574.082,"text":"沒問題好謝謝柯總召的寶貴意見國民黨團要不要表達意見好請台灣民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":2576.101,"end":2602.915,"text":"好 主席還有我們行政官員就我們各黨團的幹部那這有關電信的部分那當然確實我們在這次災後重建我們希望它能夠加速但是就是在執行的期限我覺得我們那時候在審查我們特別條例的時候我們把它因為說災後重建我們要快速一點所以時間縮短為到明年底為止"},{"start":2603.803,"end":2620.523,"text":"但是我們對於三大部分水利的部分電信的部分跟交通的部分我們予以延長到後年底也就是說所以你這些有關於電信的工程它可以執行到兩年"},{"start":2622.391,"end":2645.372,"text":"兩年多啦它不是一年的它可以執行到兩年多所以我認為呢凍結百分之三十因為它的執行期效是兩年四個月如果說我們今天八月底我們把它通過所以它可以有兩年四個月的執行的時間所以你凍結百分之三十"},{"start":2645.993,"end":2673.938,"text":"不至於影響太大如果說你今天只有一年跟半年我認為凍結30%那確實問題很大可是它的執行時間我們當時特別條例特別針對這三大項給予延長到後年底所以我個人會認為這凍結30%不至於嚴重影響到整個的施工規劃跟施工相關的因為它也不是刪除而是凍結 以上謝謝好 謝謝國民黨團發言現在我們請黃總召再次發言信"},{"start":2678.669,"end":2707.244,"text":"我再說明一次喔第一個針對有關於電信系統跟有線廣播電視系統我再說一次他們作為電信提供業者對於每一個契約相對的人也就是客戶他們有契約上面的義務那本來就是應該他們要提供的服務當初編的這個預算說要補助給他們我心裡是充滿困惑他們不是在做慈善事業他們也不是政府在提供無償的服務"},{"start":2709.082,"end":2715.155,"text":"這些電信業者這些有線電視廣播業者是每個月都在跟客戶收錢"},{"start":2717.615,"end":2742.294,"text":"每一個財報攤出來 獲利都那麼瘋政府給他們補助 我老實說啦如果不是站在災民的角度來思考的話為什麼要給他們補助這件事情就已經很讓人困惑了那你們那個時候在預算書的時候我們過去在審查預算的時候 遇到永遠的問題都是在預算書上面只有抽象的一行字"},{"start":2743.496,"end":2771.617,"text":"就一行字就要非常多的錢但那行字裡面的錢到底用到什麼地方去用實際的項目是什麼從去年在處理中央政府總預算的時候我每一場的質詢都用之前的例子來看攤開來就不堪聞問嘛臭不可聞嘛實際上面編的東西跟花的東西根本是兩碼子事嘛"},{"start":2772.964,"end":2795.965,"text":"那今天站在災民的角度我再強調我已經一塊錢都沒有刪了但是我們要知道你錢到底怎麼花花到什麼地方去所以為什麼說要經過同意了以後才可以那你說救災很急救災非常的急要快快快那我的困惑就來啦那你這個特別條例這個預算當初"},{"start":2798.973,"end":2827.016,"text":"你們要執行到什麼時候執行到2027年12月底執行到2027年12月底當初台灣民眾黨黨團提的提案他為什麼要往前挪一年你不是說很急但看起來不急行政院要的只是什麼再多給我幾百億我放在口袋裡我依照情況慢慢花可以花到2027年的年底"},{"start":2829.773,"end":2850.701,"text":"你說的跟你實際上面在做的根本對不起來啊你要這麼大一筆錢然後執行的期間這麼長那你動作就快一點嘛你把你錢怎麼花的你實際上面到底做了什麼你報告送來就排案啊我們去年在省中央政府總預算的時候不是也是一樣嗎"},{"start":2852.148,"end":2876.147,"text":"那個時候說要凍結 講一堆理由沒有時間排案啦 大家很忙啦 都很急啦這個委員會沒辦法排 院會沒辦法排通通沒辦法處理啦現在不是早就處理完了嗎所以不好意思喔 我沒有辦法沒有辦法 在不監督的情況之下就把這種錢給給出去謝謝 我們三檔 好 柯總統你請"},{"start":2879.028,"end":2895.145,"text":"我可以同意本來就要監督不可能不監督這是我們的職責今天我們有一關鍵就是說這個執行的時間是兩年也罷今天在乎的是什麼時候開始執行"},{"start":2896.767,"end":2919.839,"text":"因為我要講 你了解一下我們最快是大概應該可能消費期開業時間是9月19號差不多那選召委 再選召委然後委員組成的話差不多到9月底換句話說就整個一個月時間是空的會造成他們就是要從書面報告來也要一個月以後"},{"start":2920.779,"end":2947.041,"text":"有一個月時間的Lag所以我是在這裡比較懇切拜託黃國昌委員就是說甘肚不要就是要甘肚啦能夠提早去執行這是比較重要說生命報告來要生命報告就可以是不是這樣的話也不會影響救災的實效性能夠加速去建設"},{"start":2948.567,"end":2969.246,"text":"你想看也看得出來我想應該沒有辦法達成共識了因為再發言也就是大家除非跟剛才發言的內容完全不一樣所以本來我們就送院會處理好不好送院會處理表決書我們就同意就好了"},{"start":2973.737,"end":3000.495,"text":"同意就好了我去跟你表決也是輸嘛我不是同意就好了對 因為他只是凍結他不是在刪書啦那他把事情弄快一點就好了 好不好那換句話說民進黨團同意凍結130%我是意思說不要把那個金同意那個劃掉嘛他既然不劃掉的話我再跟你表決我也去輸嘛不過 倒不如我們這個案子就照你們照案通過希望就是說快一點 好不好"},{"start":3002.456,"end":3016.323,"text":"如果這樣的話本案就照案通過好 接下來我們繼續另外那個主席不好意思就是有關於我們這個行政院執行的部分我們要提出一個主決議那是不是可以現在提出沒關係 那主決議我們要提什麼"},{"start":3027.18,"end":3034.29,"text":"謝謝我們第四項公共工程委員會第三組決議那照案通過第三款教育部主管"},{"start":3035.672,"end":3062.333,"text":"有 請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見 好我們進入第三款教育部主管第一項國民及學前教育署第四項主決議照案通過請問有沒有意見沒有意見好 第五案主決議照案通過有沒有意見沒有意見好 謝謝第六案主決議照案通過有沒有意見沒有意見好 謝謝第七案主決議照案通過有沒有意見沒有意見 好"},{"start":3064.473,"end":3090.281,"text":"謝謝教育部列席官員謝謝進入第四款經濟部主管第一項第一項凍結10%請經濟部說明好嗎主席各位代表我們希望能夠我們尊重委員的提案凍結10%但是我們希望能夠將專案報告改為書面報告"},{"start":3091.071,"end":3114.173,"text":"細節我是不是可以請台電王總經理來做說明稍微等一下經濟部表達一下 台電稍微等一下 王總那現在經濟部的意思就是說他希望能改為書面報告 凍結版是使他們能接受請問黨團幹部有沒有報告黃董事長請發言那個提出書面報告經同意後 使得凍結 我可以接受就是把專案改成書面 但是要經同意不是你送一份報告來就算了"},{"start":3115.677,"end":3144.313,"text":"好 這個東西是跟剛才講的有一點出於經過報告書過來經過同意之後使得動之好 台電王總請說明在這裡跟各位委員報告那台電整個在執行的實務過程當中一定是先知道我有多少預算然後我會做規劃設計要在全台的災區有多少的線路要下地那如果說我的經費是未定的有10%是未定的"},{"start":3144.733,"end":3161.829,"text":"那這10%未定的話在我規劃設計的時候那我這是哪幾個地方的那個10%我要暫時保留我必須要先我大概必須要先做處理那這個處理之後這個會牽涉到我在規劃設計的時候因為我的這個電感下地"},{"start":3162.489,"end":3178.171,"text":"要牽涉到就是跟地方溝通哪一個電感上面的這些設備包括變壓器開關要下地那要下地要跟民眾溝通所以等於是說如果沒有先做好這個部分的話在後面的執行事實上是有困難的所以我現在要爭取的是時間"},{"start":3179.232,"end":3204.731,"text":"要爭取的是時間所以如果說這個部分的不確定性能夠降低對我後續的工作處理事實上是有幫助的所以在這邊懇請委員能夠讓我們在提出書面報告之後我們就可以確定說這個部分我們是可以做的那我們在跟民眾溝通的時候可以在這方面可以早點加速進行避免後續的施工的時程縮短因為畢竟時程是很重要對我們而言"},{"start":3205.452,"end":3205.953,"text":"謝謝王總說明 吳斯堯幹事長請發言 臺灣民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":3209.708,"end":3236.817,"text":"所以剛剛台電總經理的說法我的理解是兩部分啦第一部分完整的預算如果沒有凍結你們就可以在前端在針對這些電力在復旧在強化的規劃設計的這一端就知道說我有100%百分之百針對需要的地方我們都要先畫圖啦因為像我們在地方爭取這個電感下地我們都很清楚"},{"start":3237.23,"end":3253.937,"text":"就是可以先做規劃的動作變成你的難關是第一個因為被凍了10%你就必須去找出那10%可能哪裡的10%可能要先被犧牲這是第一件事情或者是緩設計對不對都會影響那一區所以就會如果這筆凍結了10%就會影響某些區域的居民本身他沒有辦法"},{"start":3264.823,"end":3272.162,"text":"那種程度也是一種剝奪不公平我要怎麼去犧牲哪裡的10%手心手背都是肉再去都要重建這是第一個難題"},{"start":3273.274,"end":3294.383,"text":"但第二個難題剛剛總經理說也尊重委員的監督但是你如何在委員還是要保留10%凍結10%的前提之下至少你還是可以去做設計你可以先有一個底說我提書面報告委員立法院就會讓我執行"},{"start":3296.264,"end":3319.338,"text":"對不對就你有個底這10%還是在的不會有任何一個區域被犧牲被剝奪被當二等公民之類不好意思用這樣的說法所以這個就是精同意後才能夠動之的那個精同意後對於你們前端設計的不確定性連帶影響工程師做的不確定性所以講回來就是說"},{"start":3320.479,"end":3347.965,"text":"當然我們還是爭取在野黨的委員可以不要凍結10%這是第一個希望能爭取的那如果民眾黨堅持要凍那是不是提書面包也很謝謝剛剛黃總召他同意不用專案報告因為專案報告他更要delay了剛剛講的那個設計跟執行的時間好那改為書面報告能不能夠經同意後的這個字可以把它這個解凍的條件可以予以解除"},{"start":3348.805,"end":3374.37,"text":"我再次說明我的理解有沒有錯誤這樣對於你們從設計端到施工端然後對於居民的說明對社會的論述你當時可以做得好也可以更完整我的理解是這樣是吧所以希望能夠爭取民眾黨委員可以聽到台電總經理這是長期的台電的專業人才是不是能夠在解凍的條件上再做一些調整好 謝謝吳司堯幹事長說明請黃國昌總召請發言"},{"start":3377.389,"end":3394.703,"text":"第一個內行人不要講外行話內行人不要講外行話台電總經理剛開始發言就凸顯了出來我們為什麼要動還要經同意現在框的金額是102億不是10萬2千元是102億102億從現在從剛台電總經理的說明就知道連規劃都還沒有開始規劃"},{"start":3407.011,"end":3424.733,"text":"真的大筆的錢是規劃費嗎不是吧真的大筆的錢是後面執行的錢你哪些地方要做要怎麼做跟既有的電網要怎麼做統合跟以前過去我昨天坐在這個同一個地方每一年喔都有電網計畫喔"},{"start":3427.014,"end":3456.013,"text":"我們不是今年中央政府才編電網的錢每一年都有電網計畫其實我這時候看到台電在這個時候編這個錢的時候我有點困惑但我可以理解災區居民的需求所以我再強調一次一塊錢我都沒有刪一塊都沒有刪但是我們看到立法院看到一個102億的金額我們負責任的方式是說因為救災需要"},{"start":3456.977,"end":3481.188,"text":"他說他要102億他也沒跟我說他為什麼要102億102億要做什麼我在預算書裡面完全看不到我完全看不到你負責任的施政應該是什麼你負責任的施政是說我預計要做ABCDEA我估多少錢 B我估多少錢C我估多少錢 D我估多少錢所以加起來是102億現在沒有現在連規劃都還沒有做"},{"start":3487.182,"end":3514.614,"text":"在整個公共工程處理的方式上你要先規劃嘛我哪裡要做要怎麼做規劃完了才知道設計最後才知道說好 按照這樣的規劃跟設計我實際執行下去需要多少錢你現在連規劃都還沒有開始規劃然後急得好像說哇 我現在哇 動了10%啊"},{"start":3516.536,"end":3542.382,"text":"我本來是緊鑼密鼓啊大張旗鼓啊趕快下去弄啊今年年底我要全部把它弄完啊沒有啊沒有啊我看你這個執行的期間不想要拖到什麼時候我甚至非常的懷疑我甚至非常的懷疑你如果連規劃都還沒有開始規劃然後第二個我有再強調一次我一塊都沒有刪"},{"start":3543.755,"end":3572.836,"text":"我也釋出善意了你說排專案報告對召委來講排專案報告會比較累那沒有關係我同意改書面報告但你書面報告來你對待立法院的方式不應該是說這個就書面報告過去行政機關所提的書面報告我們也不是沒有看過就官樣文字貼一貼就算了針對這次中南部救災上面的需求"},{"start":3573.991,"end":3601.909,"text":"我再強調一次我們一塊都沒有刪第二個動百分之十提書面報告來我們看一看OK都合理就解凍了三個月你執行的期間總共有多長啊現在在討論的是一百零二億耶你什麼時候可以執行完你如果今天台電總經理在這邊承諾一百零二億的經費從設計規劃到執行完畢今年年底完成切節寫出來"},{"start":3603.257,"end":3612.898,"text":"我連10%都不用動做得到嗎今年年底全部執行完畢我連10%都不用動做得到嗎"},{"start":3615.518,"end":3635.129,"text":"謝謝黃總召台電黃總 您是不是要補充說明一下其實我們剛剛黃總召提的台電沒有規劃其實我們這邊事實上是有初步規劃其實我們規劃是有分初步規劃跟細部規劃再來就是細部設計所以是一步一步去做的"},{"start":3635.569,"end":3660.237,"text":"那初步規劃等於是盤出來大概有310公里要做但是310公里已經遠超過我們的預算了所以我們必須在這310公里裡面還要再去刪減部分的這個工程所以等於是怎麼去刪必須是整個台灣來看該刪到哪一些東西哪一些地方那為什麼要這樣做其實這個預算跟我們每年執行的預算不同的地方在哪裡呢"},{"start":3660.717,"end":3688.346,"text":"其實最重要是我們看到的去年的珊圖爾颱風跟今年的丹納斯颱風我們看到的是氣候變遷所造成的西部地區的因為颱風受災的沿海地區的情形跟以往的颱風完全不一樣以往都是從東部過來所以到西部之後它的災損是相對小的但是現在的颱風都是從南部直接從台灣海峽就上來這個機率我們判斷"},{"start":3690.727,"end":3712.639,"text":"會因為氣候變遷而越來越高這個機率越來越高這個情勢的變更必須逼著我們台電在西部的沿海地區的防範要儘速去辦理 儘速去加強所以這部分的工作是新型態所產生的新的業務所以這新的業務必須要做好審慎妥善的運用這個預算來執行所以在這邊懇請委員支持 謝謝"},{"start":3715.969,"end":3736.989,"text":"台電總經理王總已經講了再一次補充說明也講得很清楚接下來吳斯堯委員柯總召請發言我講一下柯總召請我想在這個地方工程當然有"},{"start":3740.624,"end":3765.226,"text":"有規劃在設計嘛然後在施工嘛有一定SOP這個是大家會很清楚那我想不同面向的事情這個台電絕對不是外行的只是他談的事情角度上不一樣談不一樣事項而已他不是外行的他都知道嘛那這個地方我是建議就是說"},{"start":3766.827,"end":3795.16,"text":"所有工程不是說一定要設計好才有時間的這都一百公里而已一百零而已不可能一天完成的所以這個有先規劃再設計所以是有一定的手臂所以我是覺得這個一百零二億當台電如何去配置什麼時候去做哪些事情這些事情然後整個錢有了就能夠安心去做也不是說今天一百零二億一天把它花光了"},{"start":3795.902,"end":3797.515,"text":"他自己那個"},{"start":3802.007,"end":3827.594,"text":"黃總召是不是金銅玉也不必了啦他就叫一隻SOP蟲就好了啦他沒辦法一天幾天有尿嘛我們的電網比較特別啊剛才那個啊那個NCC那個電網設置比較特別氣候變化極端的事情比較特別讓他能夠很安心的去處理所以這個地方是不是可以要在金銅玉這樣是不是可以"},{"start":3831.34,"end":3847.131,"text":"那個月長我節省時間啦因為柯總召最近很辛苦啦總是要給他一點溫暖難得看他這麼慈眉善目這麼理性的在討論問題剛剛柯總召既然這樣講請同意我們同意把他刪掉這樣就可以了交書面報告來"},{"start":3848.686,"end":3867.436,"text":"哇 這個是很大的變化聽完柯總召 聽完黃總召心中一股暖流 好不好好 我們把金同義把它刪掉完全就是專案改成書面 好不好台電沒有問題了 好 OK好 第八案我們完成文字修正通過謝謝經濟部也謝謝台電謝謝柯總召也謝謝黃總召 好"},{"start":3877.119,"end":3904.644,"text":"那我們第九案水利署及所屬地第九案主決議大家有沒有寶貴的意見沒有意見我們就照案通過尊重辦理蔡委員是要針對剛才那個電力的嗎定案我是沒有意見啦只是說竟然這提案都是提到電網"},{"start":3906.083,"end":3924.636,"text":"因為這些電網電線桿都倒在我那邊我那裡最嚴重的多兩千多基那事實上所以我認為台電這個一百零二億的預算事實上還是要把它重點放在包括說在新聞那三支特高壓電塔是不是可以讓它地下化"},{"start":3925.456,"end":3936.28,"text":"因為看起來那特高壓電塔現在也無法抗拒這種強風所以如果可以讓它地下化甚至大家一直在說的因為我們那裡是地層下限區所以地層下限區它的地下化電纜地下化還是會要面對不同的災害會有不同的風險存在所以我們是不是在於說在主線道就是我們說的那些新的過去的新的包括台17線台19線"},{"start":3950.345,"end":3973.729,"text":"的地下化這些來優先試做所以如果剛剛像黃總召說的他提出書面那是不是這個書面裡面必須要載明說到底你們未來規劃的工程有哪些是不是也要先把它規劃好那當然執行工程發佈那些都後面的工作那些就後面再繼續做就好那事實上我意見就這樣而已好 那台電就是把財務委員讓參考我們提個負擔決議嗎"},{"start":3977.819,"end":4002.546,"text":"我覺得剛剛像蔡委員這樣子講就很有道理嘛他來自災區嘛那你跟我們要一百零二億說要做什麼我老實講我們根本不知道你要做什麼東西啊那你們以後如果要負責任一點我也是跟台電先善意的溝通你說你已經規劃了三百多公里要做哪裡做哪裡"},{"start":4004.107,"end":4030.007,"text":"那你們是不是應該負責任一點你要爭取預算 你到立法院來那你就應該把你之前 現在管你是什麼初步規劃300多公里到底是怎麼鋪的 要做什麼東西就給所有的立法委員啊你什麼都沒有給我們說救災很重要 很急要快給我102億 就這樣像蔡議員講的就很有道理啊"},{"start":4031.554,"end":4060.706,"text":"這是為什麼我要你們提書面報告啊我根本不知道你們要做什麼啊完全不知道你們要做什麼像蔡委員他有很具體的建議那就很好啊我們就做成主決議啊三個超高壓電塔全部弄掉以後不要有災民什麼地下化我通通都贊成啊但是什麼但是你們以後送預算來的時候要這麼多錢到底要做什麼是不是可以拜託台電負責任一點"},{"start":4062.998,"end":4075.595,"text":"你到底要做什麼東西 你要跟大家講嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝各位委員 蔡委員的發言請台電納入參考我們現在進入第三項水利署及所屬第十項組決議請問各位"},{"start":4078.737,"end":4105.833,"text":"有文字修正 請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有 我們就修正通過我們進入第11項主決議有文字修正各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見 我們照文字修正通過第12項主決議有文字修正各黨團幹部有寶貴意見嗎沒有 我們修正通過好 謝謝我們進入第6項能源署第13案電力系統凍結10%"},{"start":4110.404,"end":4138.662,"text":"請經濟部說明經濟部報告這個連同也是黃昭偉所關心的我們也是一樣說我們凍結10%提出書面報告那可否比照前案這個金銅以後使得東芝的文字刪除好 黃總召請再發言那個你們可不可以稍微說明一下台電的錢跟你們的錢差別到底在哪裡"},{"start":4140.709,"end":4166.918,"text":"是不是主席容我能源署報告一下就是我們的規劃就是剛剛黃總召講的那個事情跟各位報告一下我們這個案子是要做所謂的小型很小型的微電網還有就是要配置一些緊急發電機因為以前我們大部分的微電網我想蔡偉爺 蔡玉應該知道就是說以前微電網都配置在山區"},{"start":4167.958,"end":4182.899,"text":"但是這次受災比較嚴重其實是在沿海地區沿海地區的部分其實以前大概都沒有做這方面的工作所以我們這次就是希望說跟地方政府協調就是要找出一些比較脆弱的點去配置這種小型的微電網"},{"start":4183.84,"end":4204.958,"text":"那為什麼說要就是說要就是麻煩委員就是同意我們寫完報告以後就可以去用這個錢跟台電理由其實是一樣因為我們要趕快找出那個跟電話政府找出那個脆弱點然後趕快把它規劃好然後趕快下去做因為這個災害還是如果早點做完可以早點用到以上"},{"start":4206.127,"end":4234.52,"text":"好 黃德昭請再次發言其實啦 跟我當初擔心的事情你剛剛說的內容就一模一樣因為我這樣聽起來你們連盤點都沒盤點完嘛你如果連盤點都沒有盤點完你們也是蠻厲害的就通靈就知道8億就給我8億我未來現在還沒有盤點完的我就知道8億我可以做這樣講 不要浪費大家時間啦請能源署記得一件事情今天坐在這邊"},{"start":4235.967,"end":4258.963,"text":"大家是基於信任大家是基於信任因為在處理這件事情的時候你們沒有處理好一定會影響到我們未來預算的審查你可以騙我一次但是我不可能讓你騙第二次所以剛剛能源署既然這樣講書面報告經同意後四個字我同意刪除"},{"start":4261.281,"end":4278.012,"text":"好謝謝黃總召的發言接下來請蔡議員請發言那也是就感謝黃總召啦那我想要問一下能源署你剛講的這個因為這個概念事實上蠻新的就是說你們指的社區的微電網那就是指說在社區會有一個"},{"start":4280.493,"end":4309.473,"text":"一個發電系統它可能是太陽能發電然後再配合儲能然後把它放在社區還是說你們要在社區放置獨立的發電機那等災害來的時候這個發電機來運作你們到底希望的架構是什麼因為這個包括說我們未來社區要去找地點然後這個地點要來設置這個那我們也可能需要跟這些社區的災民來溝通因為並不是每個社區對一些先進的設備他們是可以理解的"},{"start":4310.193,"end":4337.405,"text":"你來想這個社區要放一個儲能站我覺得這個我在溝通上也是會很辛苦所以我可能要先了解你們的方向是什麼因為我要在第一線我要和這些人溝通好 跟委員報告一下我們大概有幾個元素第一個就是說因為這次像在沿海地區有些漁民他是用太陽光電加儲能所以他出事情的時候他自己就有一個自動開關切過去所以他那時候就不需要柴油發電機"},{"start":4339.386,"end":4362.882,"text":"所以我們現在也在盤點就是說將來要跟地方政府對齊就是說那個社區可以讓我們設這種地點的這個平常用電量是怎麼樣我們大概有幾個元素包括可能是太陽光電板儲能系統跟柴油機但是儲能系統部分因為現在消防署已經會訂定所謂表後一般用途的這個儲能的安規"},{"start":4363.843,"end":4388.158,"text":"那到時候我們會把這個安規道帶進社區跟大家講但是那個儲存系統不是委員講那種很大型的它是那種比較小型的大概度數也比較少那這樣子的話可以確保就是說在受災的時候可以獨立運作那最起碼那個地方的通信還有一些簡單的用電或是災民可以在那邊稍微避難大概都是OK的以上 謝謝好 謝謝能源署說明沒有關係 蔡委員沒關係黃光昭請再發言"},{"start":4390.025,"end":4417.922,"text":"不好意思 剛剛你說太陽光電板所以你這個是要搞太陽光電板我們會到時候看地方政府覺得那個地方比較適合放什麼東西因為地方政府還要看說那個選擇的地點到底是適合放什麼因為我們大概有好幾個元素就是說太陽光電板是一個選擇儲能系統是一個選擇採用發電機是一個選擇大概是這樣子但基本上我們希望說那個可以是一個獨立的供電點大概是這樣"},{"start":4420.993,"end":4443.687,"text":"謝謝 綜合剛才兩位委員發言以及經濟部能源署的說明我們現在提案的台灣民眾黨團已經同意把經同意後這次刪除 好嗎這樣我想大家經同意後時的動之就把它刪除了我想這個已經滿足能源署的需要另外蔡委員所提的"},{"start":4446.248,"end":4460.74,"text":"沒有啦 我沒有讓那麼多啦是經提出書面報告後始得動之啊我是經同意後那幾個字不要你書面報告你還是要來啊黃國昌總裁意思是經書面報告 同意之後 始得動之經書面報告"},{"start":4469.021,"end":4482.624,"text":"請提出書面報告後 剛才就有一案了我想已經放寬很多了另外蔡委員所提的請您納入參考因為他是災區的委員好吧他第一線他親眼目睹他感受到災民的需要好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":4504.544,"end":4523.869,"text":"好 現在發到各黨團幹部手上的是國民黨團所提的有關能源署的觀光署沒關係 就請他們看同意不同意好 請各黨團幹部看一下是否同意"},{"start":4542.195,"end":4565.921,"text":"主決議經濟部能源署編列8億元辦理災區移動式能源儲能等微電網建置等所需經費然而面對極端氣候相關微電網之建置因同步考量抗災韌性並主動參採國家災害防救科技中心的3D災害顯示地圖將辦理經驗逐步擴及全台"},{"start":4566.641,"end":4585.576,"text":"以形成孤島之高危險潛勢地區以強化其調適能力降低因災害對生活不便之影響提案人 中國國民黨黨團各黨團幹部應該沒有太大意見吧我們就照例通過 好不好好 第十三支通過我們先念第一那觀光"},{"start":4604.056,"end":4608.542,"text":"接下來我們進入農業部主管第六款然後第一項"},{"start":4609.98,"end":4639.196,"text":"第十四案 主決議請問各位黨團根本也沒意見 沒意見我們召喚通過第七款 環境部環境部第十五 主決議大家也沒意見 沒意見我們召喚通過第十六案 主決議也沒意見 沒意見召喚通過第十七案 主決議大家也沒意見 沒意見召喚通過我們進入第八款 文化部第一項 文化部第十八案 主決議各位黨團根本也沒意見 沒意見我們"},{"start":4653.109,"end":4678.038,"text":"18案有沒有意見 沒有意見我們召喚通過第19案我們現在第18案 台灣民眾黨團所提文化部第18案修正我們現在請大家參考一下"},{"start":4682.496,"end":4701.028,"text":"黃總召您看到這個第18案嗎不要我請他們解釋吧因為我完全不懂沒有問題我們先念一遍再請文化部解釋來李三這個文字是要幹嘛好我們請文化部李政策請提出說明"},{"start":4702.008,"end":4725.263,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝各位委員我們現在想要刪幾個字就是針對地方觀光景點設施還有提出如何恢復災後觀光這些旅遊的改善報告因為這個權責並不在文化部應該是交通部的觀光署比較合適所以我們提出說是不是能夠把這一段話能給予刪減"},{"start":4727.544,"end":4750.933,"text":"理事長講得非常的清楚各黨團幹部有沒有意見就針對這個第18案認為文化部並沒有管轄到倒數第三行針對地方觀光景點與設施這個希望能夠刪除各黨團幹部是否同意OK好可以好那我們就照文化部的意見好嗎好我們把針對觀光這一部分修正通過好"},{"start":4755.663,"end":4762.662,"text":"我們第十八案主決於修正通過好 第十九案也請文化部來做出說明臺灣民眾黨團體請"},{"start":4764.743,"end":4788.61,"text":"好 謝謝主席那這個案子我們主要做了一些修正的文字那我念過一遍好嗎因為各位我們也有把修正的文字交到各位委員的手上我這邊再念一遍有鑑於丹納斯颱風與洋流颱風肆虐南台灣造成許多活動及相關藝文團體工作及生活上受到巨大損失與衝擊為了保障及盡速恢復藝文團體工作與活動"},{"start":4789.77,"end":4796.415,"text":"建請文化部協同勞動部以下文字先刪除然後到以從優從寬原則補助藝文團隊需求"},{"start":4801.392,"end":4814.238,"text":"以下文字也先刪除以期可競訴於一定時程恢復工作上之運作並嚴議與地方政府合作競訴給予相關藝文團體協助並就上述進度與相關補助要點依據本條例第九條"},{"start":4821.221,"end":4830.951,"text":"之規定張貼於相關網站會呈進度報告還有相關的進展統計報告依據本條例第八條之規定送立法院被查以上的修正"},{"start":4847.629,"end":4856.786,"text":"第二十三國民黨團所提出決議現在宣讀一下麻煩各位黨團跟我們稍微看一下在各位的手中我們現在宣讀"},{"start":4857.799,"end":4880.413,"text":"主決議為有效迅速推動丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後之災區復原重建工作中央政府依本特別條例第五條第一項提出總經費六百億支特別預算案用於農業設施電力系統電信系統及有線廣播電視系統自來水瓦斯及燃氣設施家園及公共設施水利設施道路及交通"},{"start":4881.574,"end":4902.588,"text":"環境衛生復原社會復原及產業促進等重建工作之推動為檢討交通部公路局及觀光署第一次天然災害重建復原工作呈現績效差強人意執行進度落後其原因包括經費核定較慢影響後續採購作業前置或規劃進度落後工程管控未盡復實"},{"start":4904.509,"end":4928.043,"text":"變更設計而延長工程 工程履約管理欠佳重建工程完工後因後續災情 再次造成災損等缺失政府應秉持人力緊密的精神 切實提升執行績效 原此要求交通部公路局及觀光署針對丹麥斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建工作應依上向"},{"start":4929.264,"end":4945.484,"text":"缺失項目列表管考並按機送立法院被查提案人 中國國民黨立法院黨團宣讀完畢剛才我們所宣讀的第20案國民黨團所提的請問各黨團有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":4947.13,"end":4958.485,"text":"如果沒有意見好那我們就照案通過那現在民進黨要提出八之一跟第八項我們先宣讀一下"},{"start":4959.557,"end":4987.769,"text":"主決議請台電公司就災區台17線19線主幹道桿線優化地下及嘉義新溫變電所出口三座鐵塔研議地下工程提案人蔡宇委員等科建銘委員吳思耀委員 柴柏宇委員 王鴻威委員宣讀完畢那個第81的這個主決議大家沒有寶貴的意見應該是蔡委員所提的這個"},{"start":4989.517,"end":5014.63,"text":"國民黨團 臺灣民眾黨團有沒有寶貴意見沒有問題齁好 我們就早安通過了好好 我們先來宣告現在黨團協商結論的草稿念一下可以的話我們就請黨編了各位黨團幹部請簽字立法院黨團協商結論時間110年8月28日下午一點協商主題延伸中央政府單一是颱風急728豪雨災後復原重建特別"},{"start":5015.63,"end":5039.29,"text":"預算案相關事宜 我們協商的結論有2.1協商通過內容如後付 由財政委員會整理與召聯席會議審查結果通過 送各黨團確認後於8月28日星期四下午5點前送議事處2.本案完成三讀之後 由各黨團推派一位進行三讀後發言"},{"start":5040.231,"end":5068.731,"text":"各黨團同意不再提出複議本次協商各項提議均予刊登公報記錄請問各黨團幹部有沒有任何問題好 請王烘委員請發言主席對不起我們還有一個主決議就是針對那個交通部公路局跟觀光署的要求就是針對災後災區復建工作依照缺失項目的列表管考並按計算那個已經OK了是不是好的 謝謝"},{"start":5075.682,"end":5097.657,"text":"這個協商結論如果沒有問題我們先簽好不好因為等一下還有其他事情請 特首長我們延續昨天提的問題就是說有些不是協商法案可以念的好沒有意見我們先把我們剛才這個達成兩點的協商結論我們先簽字好不好 麻煩一下來 請"},{"start":5116.448,"end":5142.455,"text":"各位黨團幹部你們在簽那個協商決論的時候同時有重要宣告請大家請大家注意聽一下謝謝那麻煩各黨團幹部注意一下我們現在今日協商的第二案114年度追加預算案目前本院的裁委會還正在審查之中所以預估今天晚上8點才會有審查報告送院會所以請問我們是不是晚上8點"},{"start":5144.708,"end":5153.552,"text":"繼續進行追加預算案的協商大家有沒有破釜沉舟的決心大家看我的眼睛好 我們晚上八點開會 謝謝"},{"start":5169.155,"end":5187.381,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5191.565,"end":5192.025,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5223.4,"end":5228.628,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":5256.199,"end":5256.519,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":5268.349,"end":5290.128,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5298.213,"end":5301.075,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5311.817,"end":5329.42,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":5356.485,"end":5356.705,"text":"拿那個"},{"start":26907.639,"end":26936.413,"text":"好謝謝謝謝各位黨團幹部都已到謝謝我們現在開始準備開會請議事人員來議事人員疏導一下疏導一下會議室謝謝好議事人員疏導一下會議室謝謝也謝謝新聞界好朋友關心謝謝"},{"start":26957.195,"end":26984.378,"text":"謝謝各位黨黨幹部請坐各位列席官員謝謝大家這麼晚了辛苦大家各位工作同仁大家都非常的辛苦啊也謝謝因為今天我們完全是快馬加鞭所以不得不晚上八點繼續開會希望一切能夠很順利那我們現在進行一百一四年度中央政府總預算追加預算協商我首先我先介紹各位列席的官員我們首先介紹總統府何副秘書長"},{"start":26988.649,"end":27017.776,"text":"何副秘書長咧好 我回頭再介紹我們司法院的理聽長OK 了解 現在只有通案的所有的閣員在現場因為我們坐不下去請大家來 我們先唸一下我們唸一下通案的主計總處的陳主計長 歡迎人事行政總處的蘇人事長"},{"start":27021.993,"end":27048.548,"text":"行政院狗祕書長 歡迎國安會的 他們還不到勞動部紅部長 歡迎您內政部劉部長 歡迎大陸委員會的邱主委管主委海洋事務部管主委 歡迎"},{"start":27050.305,"end":27069.554,"text":"外交部次長 歡迎國防部博副部長好 歡迎財政部莊部長隔壁 好的還有原住民曾主委"},{"start":27073.563,"end":27098.681,"text":"人事長也到了 蘇貞昌 熱情歡迎交易部的政部長 歡迎交通部陳部長 歡迎經濟部姜次長 歡迎 歡迎 歡迎衛福部邱部長邱部長 熱情歡迎 熱情歡迎何副長 請坐 請坐 請坐我再想 請坐 請坐 請坐"},{"start":27103.018,"end":27129.749,"text":"文化部的理事長好 歡迎好 國科會吳主委國安部副部長 博副部長到了嗎好好好陸委會邱主委也到了好 請坐請坐今天比較擁擠中選會李主委也到了好那我們如果遇到有什麼問題的話再向各位列席的閣員來請教"},{"start":27133.171,"end":27159.579,"text":"那我跟各位報告一下因為我們那個管主委海洋事務部的管主委他急著趕回高雄明天主管會報他列為94案所以各位黨團幹部統一我們把他列為第一案他這個案審查完畢之後他就可以趕回高雄好不好好 如果各位黨團幹部沒有意見我們請管主委第94案管主委你要不要說明一下你跟提案黨團有達成共識請說明"},{"start":27163.738,"end":27177.997,"text":"謝謝 非常非常感謝院長也謝謝周秘書長幫忙協調也謝謝我們各黨團予以支持海委會是在第94案那麼第94案我們和提案委員"},{"start":27179.098,"end":27205.256,"text":"有達成溝通的共識對於海巡署相關的工作的預算那得到提案的王委員他能夠同意就是說我們不再予以凍結預算給予我們之用但是特別叮嚀說我們應該要準決支出那這個部分可能就是這個提案的倒數第三行的原我們改成因"},{"start":27206.016,"end":27216.885,"text":"也就是說提醒我們 叮嚀我們應該要準決支出那這個部分我們如果大家能夠同意的話是不是就照這樣子"},{"start":27224.825,"end":27242.846,"text":"這樣好 我再稍微說一下海巡署所編列的預算因為今年度主要預算的部分是因應有三艘海巡艦有兩艘礁船 一艘下水"},{"start":27244.188,"end":27272.59,"text":"如果我們這次追加預算沒有給他的話也要編列到下年度的預算因為這是契約上的我們是基於這樣的理由然後可以通過這一筆預算但是還是希望能夠按照這個實際的需求能夠有所遵截基本上我們在追加預算部分是完全支持我們的海巡艦的交建的作業跟大家做以上的說明 謝謝"},{"start":27272.93,"end":27293.716,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威提案委員的說明各黨團幹部如果我們第九十四案海洋事務部管主委這邊修正通過 大家有意見嗎沒有意見我們修正通過 謝謝管主委 請回謝謝院長 保持微笑寫背 謝謝掉第一案了 好 謝謝我們現在進入第一案 三案 通案我們現在"},{"start":27296.858,"end":27315.031,"text":"現在全數檢列 我們三個案一起第一 媒體政策及業務宣傳費四億兩千九二 媒體政策及業務宣傳經費四億兩千九 全數檢列三 都一樣 請各位黨團幹部表達意見好嗎哪一位先發言 吳思瑤吳幹長請發言"},{"start":27319.935,"end":27348.515,"text":"這個沒宣費是跨部會的那其實在當初審總預算的時候就是被在野黨的委員鎖定的一個特別針對性的一個預算那我只是提醒因為追加預算就是總預算可以撥亂反正的一個最後的機會沒宣費對於各個部會之所以重要是可以讓人民第一手掌握"},{"start":27349.295,"end":27374.816,"text":"政策的推動尤其跟民眾相關的事務煤燻費如果用在我們在防災風災的事項上大家一起努力推出來的風災特別預算關乎所有的受災的居民們不管是房屋補助不管是農地"},{"start":27376.897,"end":27396.585,"text":"農業部的各項津貼不管是來自於我們產業界的幫忙所有在風災整建的過程當中政府對於居民所有的協助怎麼樣讓居民能夠知曉能夠掌握能夠來幫助政策可以執行他需要宣傳"},{"start":27398.266,"end":27421.018,"text":"如果大家印象深刻的是每一黨的委員永遠在要求打詐打詐要到位執行要成功就是要告訴人民透過宣導這些都是沒宣費要執行的更不用說我們平常在防災防疫各項的推動"},{"start":27423.328,"end":27437.175,"text":"未來在關稅的衝擊對於產業的很多紓困也必然透過梅宣的管道讓所有的stakeholder利害相關人能夠知道他能夠獲得政府什麼樣的幫忙所以4.2億"},{"start":27439.796,"end":27468.926,"text":"在野黨的委員依舊是針對性的這一筆預算要全刪我要再一次呼籲這是人民知道掌握政府政策的重要預算不要再一次再一次擁有機會撥亂反正的時候還要繼續對政府的預算造成二次的傷害這真的是二次的傷害好嗎好所以麻煩大家好"},{"start":27470.362,"end":27497.451,"text":"謝謝吳世耀幹事長的說明接下來我們請提案的黨團王洪威委員發言賴思寶委員請準備好 謝謝主席我想第一個事情我覺得這個吳世耀幹事長左一句撥亂反正右一句撥亂反正我們完全的抗議不予接受現在在審查預算這是立法院賦予立法院監督審查預算的職責什麼叫做撥亂反正亂是誰"},{"start":27500.191,"end":27528.348,"text":"如果你今天送來的預算合理就如同剛才像海巡署的預算這個交件的預算我們就可以充分的配合嘛但是如果你今天的預算不合理我們本來就應該監督啊這是我們的天職我說過如果今天不管預算也好 法案也好我們立法院完全遵照行政院送過來的立法院就撤掉算啊我們就換成一個橡皮圖章就好啦送什麼就給他通過什麼"},{"start":27530.149,"end":27538.374,"text":"所以我覺得如果今天民進黨團幹事長要矮化或踐踏自己作為一個立法委員的職權請變但是呢我們還是非常堅持然後在這邊就是有關於"},{"start":27547.355,"end":27563.484,"text":"我剛才 我剛才有在插你的話嗎我有在插你的話嗎我有插你的話嗎謝謝 謝謝 謝謝那個 謝謝我們尊重一下發言委員好吧 謝謝我還在發言好吧晚上八點 晚上八點大家也都比較好然後在這個 我們的沒宣費我們在今年審查預算的時候當時為什麼要刪除沒宣費當時的原因 理由已經非常非常充分"},{"start":27575.919,"end":27602.521,"text":"那現在加起來一共是超過4億那到今年年底如果這樣算起來一個月起碼要再多花1億做這個相關的宣傳請問一下我們現在有什麼重大的證物或者重大的突發事件嗎像我們今天才剛剛下午的時候通過了災後重建的特別預算"},{"start":27603.442,"end":27630.343,"text":"或者是我們之前我們也協調的這個特別條例也就是當發生重大的突發事件我們最近不管是因應對等關稅的特別條例也好在後重建的特別預算也好我們都有另外在編列特別預算支應所以現在看不出看不出在短短的4個月為什麼每個月還要多花1億的沒宣費"},{"start":27632.825,"end":27660.142,"text":"那至於我們的政府是不是有把這些相關的沒宣費過度集中在特定的媒體這樣的狀況還是沒有改善比如最近我們在討論的就業安定基金就有關就業安定基金扶摞使用的部分又被我們抓出來又被我們抓出來過度集中連續三年集中在"},{"start":27660.982,"end":27681.972,"text":"集中在三立 集中在民事集中在年代 極度集中這樣的問題一直都沒有獲得改善所以在這樣的狀況之下這個時候再做追加預算我們認為大可不必所以允許全部刪除 以上好 謝謝王宏偉天安委員的說明"},{"start":27683.192,"end":27699.618,"text":"接下來不要急不要急大家不要急接下來請提案委員賴世保委員說明台灣民眾黨團請準備謝謝主席韓院長各位先進那麼我的意見跟洪威基本上接近了"},{"start":27700.558,"end":27718.196,"text":"事實上來講的話這個這一筆錢四億多基本上幾乎是完全沒有必要的沒有必要的他是回編過來的那我們都知道可以看得到事實上政府的免券費用已經夠高了那為什麼要編這筆錢這第一點我要說明的第二點我要說明的是"},{"start":27720.748,"end":27741.754,"text":"我今天早上自己從家裡是五點多起床為了要早上來這裡登記然後我當召委一直忙到現在中間我們好不容易把它處理完 尋打七十幾個人尋打完畢後處理案子 處理到預算我們總共只有13億而已"},{"start":27743.427,"end":27761.555,"text":"那我們的立法院的預算中心已經給我們啦他說按照這樣子的一個編法弱化立法院的監督這是我們立法院的預算中心寫的因為這個我就回想到我們的老柯最近我們都很尊敬老柯啊對不對"},{"start":27762.395,"end":27786.753,"text":"我多年的好友喔 老柯以前就跟我們講來 我們總預算先看一看你就用這套 我都給你買單啦我跟你這麼久的時間 我們好朋友啊你都說先框一個 說要預算要算多少我們過去10年平均最少1% 去年是1%都是1.1 1.6對不對 你會記得齁我跟大家跟你獨裁就是1.多%結果現在只有0.65"},{"start":27788.374,"end":27805.947,"text":"所以0.65的情況之下 老實講就是差0.350.35算過來 我們邊的預算是3兆所以就是要砍111左右所以113怎麼來的 是這樣來的因為我就遵循老柯你過去前面給我們教導的地方啦就是要1%以上這樣沒有啦 1%以上啦 我跟你講所以現在來講的話 我覺得"},{"start":27811.511,"end":27826.116,"text":"能夠刪就盡量刪因為今天下午我是因為尊重大家而且我要趕進度配合我們的院長晚上的協商所以我把它很快的close掉那中間就放了很多是要表決的那我"},{"start":27826.676,"end":27843.206,"text":"我在這裡先講比如翁小林委員提的案子都非常好他一筆就是二十幾億一筆就是二十幾億我覺得就讓我們表決嘛那這樣子的話我們表決能夠成功那就是達到達到我們科總召所提到永遠的科總召提到的一趴這樣就是這樣啦所以這點齁"},{"start":27845.908,"end":27859.419,"text":"四點多一真的不要再戴那麼多帽子啦不要講那些有的沒有的就是這一條如果你可以讓我們刪就讓我們刪不能刪那我們就去表決這樣而已啦好 謝謝賴思寶提案委員的說明接下來請提案的黨團台灣民眾黨團請說明好 謝謝院長先代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明黨團立場針對"},{"start":27869.779,"end":27897.939,"text":"因應高關稅補助產業的需要補助勞工的需要補助農民的需要台灣民眾黨黨團全力支持我們的版本甚至比行政院還多今天下午針對有關於災害重建需要的經費台灣民眾黨黨團也全力支持釋出了非常大的善意院長下午協商也在現場應該非常清楚但是"},{"start":27901.115,"end":27927.662,"text":"針對違法亂紀的卓榮泰所提出的這個追加預算我們絕對是嚴格審查今天我去委員會我請教你們依照預算法79條什麼規定來提出這個追加預算根本不符合預算法79條的法定要件啊我請教我們法律學有專精的法務部部長"},{"start":27929.11,"end":27957.156,"text":"回答不出來還站在後面嬉皮笑臉的檢查總長一樣站在上面講不出話來這到底符合預算法79條第幾款的要件啊簡直是莫名其妙甚至在地方補助款的部分用擄人勒索的手法在綁路票"},{"start":27959.079,"end":27963.881,"text":"怎麼會有這麼惡劣的行政院院長啊如果是法濫權莫恥為勝啊回到這個案子針對廣宣費我相信台灣公民心裡都有一把尺啊"},{"start":27976.345,"end":27996.635,"text":"如果去年刪廣泉費的時候台灣公民大家心裡面的想法就是這些廣泉費很重要啊民進黨這麼多這麼優秀的重大政績沒有這些廣泉費好好宣導台灣人民都不知道那被制裁的會是在野黨嗎但我們打開天窗說亮話哪一個民主國家的政府"},{"start":28006.144,"end":28022.187,"text":"花這麼大把的納稅人的錢去養特定的媒體我們過去開過非常多記者會一件一件全部點出來結果得到的回應是什麼都符合政府採購法查無不法謝謝指教這種惡劣的正媒關係啊需要被嚴肅的矯正"},{"start":28032.932,"end":28057.151,"text":"因此台灣民眾黨黨團也是提案要捉回來的媒體宣傳費全數刪除了解 謝謝提案的黨團台灣民眾黨團的說明接下來我們會請鍾嘉斌委員發言之後進行處理 請好 更正鍾嘉斌委員發言完畢之後請陳玉珍委員發言發言完畢之後我們進行處理"},{"start":28058.527,"end":28082.456,"text":"謝謝韓院長首先要跟韓院長帶回因為今天晚上的圓山飯店太平洋的國會議員本來都等著您去但知道您很辛苦所以特別要回來問候您謝謝辛苦了那在這裡呢也要謝謝剛剛發言的賴世保委員今天下午在財政委員跟各位聯席委員會當中呢也謝謝昭偉賴昭偉的體恤對於有些行政機關的確比較"},{"start":28084.737,"end":28113.132,"text":"迫切的需求能夠協調提案委員能夠予以寬緩那這裡呢今天這個梅宣會用四億兩千九百零六萬六千元這邊特別要請命就是說這是行政院全部的但是當中有一部分是屬於外交部那外交部的這個梅宣會跟行政院其他的當中有一個很大的特色"},{"start":28113.832,"end":28122.541,"text":"它有一部分是對國際的宣傳我當然知道大家對國內的宣傳有些不同的看法但是這其中當中的4億2906萬當中屬於"},{"start":28130.228,"end":28144.041,"text":"外交部的部分它是有1億零228萬4千元那當中最主要的部分有一個高達將近4千萬以上是屬於我們國家生日國慶煙火"},{"start":28145.723,"end":28170.03,"text":"跨年烟火对国际的一个转播那这些承染的这些平台都是国际的文宣网站和全体平台不是国内的我知道包括刚刚这个王委员王洪威委员有提到对于国内各媒体承染的数字有些看法但是呢这其中呢是不是能够特别准于对外交部的媒宣费的"},{"start":28170.61,"end":28199.67,"text":"一億零兩百二十八萬四千元能夠給予濁三五千萬元那麼就是就這一億零兩百二十八萬四千元當中濁三五千萬就是等於是五千兩百二十八萬四千元保留給外交部進行我們國家在跨年的對國際的宣傳這是我們中華民國我們共同的國家的對外宣傳是不是能夠也請副總召肯與支持謝謝"},{"start":28200.55,"end":28224.981,"text":"中台辯委員的意思 國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團 黨團就是說把外交部國慶煙火 中華民國生日 國慶的宣導這一部分留下來其他部分 黨團的就是說希望能夠在外交部這當中包在這當中有一億零兩百二十八萬 只三五千萬就好其他部分同意刪除嗎不同意 那不同意的話我們還是要送院會處理請陳議員 陳委員請發言"},{"start":28228.508,"end":28237.512,"text":"我想請教因為我們今天校審查的時候這個預算這個現在是通案但是後面這一本裡頭還有很多協商我們協商校審過的會診表"},{"start":28241.407,"end":28267.922,"text":"這個費用整個裡頭是不是好像我看有幾筆是在後面也有包含到比如說因為因為我們財政委員會之前在審這個貨物稅的時候貨物稅相關的這個條例的時候有一些新的這個貨物稅減免的這個規定那這個規定裡頭的那個跟民眾那個不是上媒體的是宣導的費用是在這裡是第57個案子他的錢應該是包在這個裡頭所以是要在後面審的時候再提還是這邊就要提出來"},{"start":28281.02,"end":28290.529,"text":"這個是整個大包的嘛後面還有這個案子是所以他們都會後面一併的保留後面如果說覺得這個因為有來溝通過覺得這個是可以的那前面這裡刪掉了怎麼辦"},{"start":28294.693,"end":28317.153,"text":"不是啦 不是啦要大包小嗎等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下 等一下"},{"start":28318.038,"end":28333.003,"text":"我詢問這個主計長像你剛剛這個第一案對不對這個第一案失憶多嘛齁那其中有一些像比如說我看這五十幾案齁有一些案子可能是含在這裡頭的這樣怎麼辦那就刪減了就沒了就全面刪了後面也都沒有了對"},{"start":28335.446,"end":28359.863,"text":"等一下 那個紅衛國際宣傳的沒有分因為原來後面提出來說以台灣民眾黨團體來講他們就提的是三百五十啊那如果前面這樣沒有連那個百分之五十也沒有了對 你知道嗎不能重複刪減就全部刪了所以我們是那後面他只能三五十前面怎麼辦呢好 陳御正委那個主席長給你回答能接受好 接下來"},{"start":28362.233,"end":28384.364,"text":"那個王國衛委員就是跟張慶愷委員請簡短而要進行處理 案子非常多好 請王國衛委員請好 我先講一下這個4億2千多萬是全部這次追加的沒宣費因為剛才是宗嘉賓委員來講那我想請教一下外交部應該有在現場嗎好 來"},{"start":28387.816,"end":28396.836,"text":"外交部說想要保留跨年 101跨年煙火的衛星轉播授權好 第一個"},{"start":28398.41,"end":28416.648,"text":"跨年煙火 反正錢並不是你們出的 每一年都有但是你說衛星轉播授權 你授權誰你這轉播費是多少錢你總不能為了一個說 或者跨年煙火然後就把其他的稀哩呼嚕全部帶進來"},{"start":28418.65,"end":28437.04,"text":"所以針對第一個跨年煙火的衛星轉播授權費多少錢你準備是國內媒體還是國外媒體據我所知這種轉播也常常都是國內的媒體國慶文宣影片"},{"start":28438.541,"end":28463.643,"text":"國軍的文宣影片準備是多少錢因為你這一包夯不啷噹有好多又是一大堆的什麼文宣什麼對 賀歲什麼對具台灣特色的文宣紀念品我跟你講我們最近抓到的太多的弊案就是這樣的這些影片所以請外交部回答一下所謂的"},{"start":28464.984,"end":28487.619,"text":"跨年煙火衛星轉播是多少錢呢然後文宣影片又是多少錢呢這文宣影片是給國外是發包給國外嗎這種應該是發包給國內吧不要又要雲木混珠好不好先回答一下問題請外交部就直接回答因為這問題比較關鍵已經有兩個委員提出來了"},{"start":28489.58,"end":28518.278,"text":"好 謝謝 謝委員101跨國衛星轉播是其中之一而已我想很大一包也是對於國慶但還有包含國際組織對國際組織我們要推案所以很多國慶影片還有台灣國家轉實力的數位推廣計畫全部都在5000萬裡面剛才因為那是比較容易讓大家聽得懂的所以我們用"},{"start":28518.678,"end":28526.382,"text":"你到底委託給國內還國外之前要錢的時候說都是國外的你這個明明影片都是給國內的又受眾國外跟你委託國外兩碼事好不好通通刪"},{"start":28535.305,"end":28552.442,"text":"不要緊 要說明一下吧就是你委託現在王航威委員講得很清楚你委託是誰 那受眾我們委託有DiscoveryDiscovery不是國內的啊Discovery是國外的啊還有呢 除了Discovery還有呢"},{"start":28553.755,"end":28570.795,"text":"我們還有一個是八百萬的數位台灣的軟實力那這個部分是給外館跟當地駐地的網紅或者是一些那個數位媒體的部分來做合作所以那是外館所以他的合作就會是外館"},{"start":28572.096,"end":28592.95,"text":"像五千萬扣掉這八百萬還有四千兩百萬還有一千五百萬是Discovery一個一千五百萬扣掉這是跟跨國知名頻道Discovery扣掉一千五加上八百是兩千三那總共如果照宗嘉賓為人提示五千剩下還有兩千七請問外交部請回答一下好不好你委託的誰這非常關鍵先委員在乎的這個請"},{"start":28595.686,"end":28611.224,"text":"我們對這個媒體宣傳費裡面事實上是包含了非常多的項目那我舉個例子比如說330萬是針對我們的六大文宣網站那這個網站我們當然是透過一些推播然後讓世界"},{"start":28611.824,"end":28633.181,"text":"让国际社会更了解我们这是我们的文宣网站这里面包含了政府的英文入口网站还有我们所有外馆的联合网站新南向网站等等总共有六个网站所以我们这些必须要比如说我们这是330万我们在还有我们的直播"},{"start":28634.742,"end":28652.071,"text":"國主推案的影片以及軟實力的影片那這部我們原先編的是有個780萬再加上400萬的推播所以加起來是1180萬那我們剛剛有提到跟跨國公司來合作製播影片那"},{"start":28652.791,"end":28680.239,"text":"我們過去這幾年是來得標的是Discovery所以這是跨國的部分那我們還有兩百萬是給我們的邦交國在國慶期間來刊登國慶廣告或者國慶特刊這個有兩百萬那我剛剛有提到的也剛剛已經報告了就是那個跟這個駐地的這有八百萬那另外我們剛剛講的煙火有六十萬所以這裡加起來已經超過四千萬了以上報告"},{"start":28680.899,"end":28692.853,"text":"好 謝謝您各位黨團幹部 剛剛外交部已經說得清楚我們現在繼續開會好嗎"},{"start":28700.632,"end":28728.466,"text":"继续开会好吗那张其凯委员发言麻烦聚焦因为外交部已经做了很好我们现在讨论的每一分钱都是人民辛辛苦苦的纳税钱当初这个煤纤灰为什么被删至少有三大理由一个是绩效不章第二是连卓荣泰卓院长自己都承认了过度集中在三明治某些某几家的这个手上第三个更严重的用人民的钱去洗你的脑然后我们进一步去统计这是追加的非常的离谱"},{"start":28729.608,"end":28737.032,"text":"我們刪讀刪減完之後這次追加的預算竟然佔被刪的就是把它複製貼上回來追的55.84%"},{"start":28740.816,"end":28764.727,"text":"高達55.84%全部都是重新又編回來你如果照這樣我們給你的話這筆錢比去年的全部的煤煙費多出了27.8%另外這是追加預算編類這個煤煙費90個這是來追加的90個機構裡面除了5個以外全部砍的全部那個回編率啊全部都超過40%"},{"start":28766.584,"end":28782.652,"text":"而且有幾個單位有20個單位回編率100%就立法院已經辛辛苦苦而且在剛講的那三大問題之下砍掉了錢你們20個機關全部都是複製貼上重新編回來所以他們會堅持說這一次全部都要刪掉嘛"},{"start":28783.971,"end":28806.329,"text":"所以這一步我覺得就是每一分錢都是民脂民膏好 謝謝當然外交剛剛講那一塊我們等一下可以討論一下可是除了這個四塊其他全部都要砍掉那個要幫人民開啟合法那個謝謝張啟凱委員那個賴世保委員請簡短的請謝謝院長我就是提一個重點今天沒有如果沒有追加預算來到外交部就不要做這些嗎"},{"start":28807.796,"end":28830.084,"text":"你們照樣做哪裡沒有錢照樣做啊所以這是假的啊他本來就要做這個啊難道沒有追加預算就沒有國慶的東西嗎沒有對外去做嗎都在做啊 怎麼沒有做都有啊 你是假的啦這個東西就這麼簡單啊怎麼會 對不對怎麼會會這個這樣 extra假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假假"},{"start":28831.226,"end":28850.391,"text":"好 那請 外交部請補充報告委員 我們外交部的沒捐是零元啦所以 報告委員 真的對啊 是被刪成零元啦所以 如果沒有這筆錢那些就是不能做啦那會有國慶 當然我沒有說 一定是有國慶嘛但是那個宣傳就沒有了啦那是吧那位 這個要的啦你把它看 你不能砍掉的不是啊 你稍等一下齁"},{"start":28860.99,"end":28868.475,"text":"因為我們這個案子顯然三個黨團沒有辦法達成共識那我們明天上午還會有最後一次溝通機會"},{"start":28875.729,"end":28892.427,"text":"我其實也那時候建議過外交部你哪些是確切是委託國外的頻道國外的媒體應該要提供資料那很可惜我今天也沒看到我在之前有跟外交部說"},{"start":28893.788,"end":28916.654,"text":"那你剛講來講去 拍影片拍影片又是台灣啊都是台灣的那個什麼工作室然後你再透過一些channel出去然後你跟我講800萬講來講去都是我們自己官方的網站那你還說還要什麼300萬所以明天請他們把這些相關資料國外的部分委託國外的部分那明天上午9點半"},{"start":28918.513,"end":28945.404,"text":"我再重複一遍 明天上午九點半麻煩請外交部把相關委託國外的委員委員所重視委託國外這部分送到院長院長室來 我再做最後一次跟黨團溝通好不好 明天上午九點半好 我們這三案沒有辦法主席這個是統個大包的齁所以如果其他部位像這個這個貨物稅這個依法令也是請他送過來嗎後面 我有看一個資料"},{"start":28947.787,"end":28964.717,"text":"不是只有外交部嗎主席有共識但是我建議不只外交部各部會有國外宣傳的一起外交好不好不是只有外交部各部會都有國際宣傳"},{"start":28970.233,"end":28989.586,"text":"好 那我們這123案我們先保留 明早九點半請外交部送到我院長室來我們十點鐘會跟各黨再一次協商我們也希望能夠看到清楚的資料謝謝外交部 我們進入第四案總統府主委 歐小林委員所提案黃子聰請"},{"start":28996.417,"end":29022.366,"text":"我尊重院長的才是啦那明天要有再給外交部一次機會我也不反對但是話先說清楚明天提來的東西如果不夠具體明確的話不要以為用一些話術就可以把預算騙回去我的再強調一次明天帶來的東西不夠具體明確的話不要以為用一些話術"},{"start":29023.891,"end":29051.196,"text":"就可以把錢騙回去第二個 明天順便說明一下兩個月以前 今天是八月嘛現在是八月嘛在兩個月以前Discovery上了一個節目叫做台灣無比精彩 AI科技島現在我在YT上有看到兩個月以前上架的這個片子花了多少錢"},{"start":29052.64,"end":29080.371,"text":"什麼時候的錢在哪一個預算科目向下如果都沒有錢不會啊你兩個月以前Discovery就已經上了台灣無比精彩AI科技島錢從哪裡來的明天早上一併說明清楚如果沒有辦法說明清楚的話台灣民眾黨黨團會堅持我們本來的案子好 謝謝我們明天早上九點半請外交部配合一下 謝謝我們第四案總統府主管"},{"start":29084.483,"end":29085.646,"text":"翁小林委員所提案請說明"},{"start":29087.232,"end":29113.505,"text":"謝謝主席我首先要講的就是我呼應剛剛黃國昌主席所講的這個這次的追加預算基本上根本就不符合預算法的法定要件也就是第三款到底是發生了什麼重大事故以至於產生經費有超過法定預算的在我看起來除了少數幾項也許勉強符合這個重大事故的事由之外其餘的根本就不符合我還要再講就是這個賴總統自己說了"},{"start":29116.526,"end":29132.813,"text":"現在幾個法案軍人待遇條例法案也都在釋憲當中所以他們都不編預算大家不要忘記了114年的政府總預算案到現在是釋憲了而且"},{"start":29134.892,"end":29144.957,"text":"而且這個我們憲法法庭已經受理了理論上現在的預算都不應該執行都應該暫停更何況還來做這個追加預算更是沒有正當性所以我今天其實為什麼說把很多的這個機關我認為說這個整報的預算都不應該通過就是符合我剛剛講的那兩個要件就是第一個不合法第二個它本身它就不應該要提出這個追加預算"},{"start":29162.446,"end":29168.169,"text":"好那現在回到這個總統府的主管這個預算這次的總統府的主管的預算他列了總共是3324萬6000元看起來這四個機關包含總統府國安會以及國使館還有台灣文獻館四個機關他們通案的刪減數他們的回編率是高達百分之五就是超過五成那麼所以我們當時通案的目的就是為了要尊潔支出結果呢他們現在又把這些錢全部都編回來"},{"start":29192.282,"end":29194.345,"text":"那麼看他們編了什麼不管是編什麼水電費啊還有國安會甚至連副首長的座車我們當時就是認為說不需要在這個時候買一個副首長的座車把這個錢刪掉他又把它全數都編回來"},{"start":29209.005,"end":29224.504,"text":"那么其他的像是业务费什么文献支出等等其实它根本没有急迫性也不符合重大事故的条件所以编回来的意思这不是就等于说是我们在先前立法委员那么辛苦的去审查"},{"start":29225.623,"end":29254.662,"text":"然後提供意見然後刪除了這個預算那現在就透過追加預稅又全部這個什麼就全部都借屍還魂所以這是沒有道理的這因此呢我認為說總統府現在所提的三千三百二十四萬六千元的都應該要全部全部與刪除謝謝王小林提案委員的說明接下來請總統府級說明何副秘書長請非常感謝王委員還有各位委員以及我們的"},{"start":29256.564,"end":29281.946,"text":"快速報告我想回應一下剛剛的視線的部分其實這個視線絕對不是在挑戰我們的國會而是要把這個界線來做釐清所以我希望我的看法跟我的想法是在這裡那關於這個總統府主管的部分畢竟是四個單位四個單位在一起那我這邊可不可以請求委員們我們是不是刪一千萬就好"},{"start":29282.826,"end":29306.283,"text":"這個部分可不可以拜託給我們讓我們的這個資安也好或者是在我們的水電費也好還有基本運作讓總統府還可以身為一個國家的政治的中樞中華民國的政治中樞可以繼續運作下去再多拜託好 謝謝何副部長說明各位黨團幹部總統府何副部長一直說保留2324萬刪除1000萬請問各黨的幹部針對"},{"start":29311.127,"end":29317.072,"text":"何副民進黨所表達 請表達意見好嗎沒有意見那國民黨團請表達意見好 請副總召那個主席我想今天我們在這裡討論追加預算最主要是"},{"start":29331.035,"end":29340.464,"text":"這個主計總署行政院違法刪掉了今年各縣市的一般性補助款636億然後夾帶現在送來變成878億多了242億多了242億以後我覺得大家應該啊"},{"start":29351.24,"end":29380.65,"text":"大罷免期數以後啊朝野市應該要和諧一點大家來為國家但違法扣掉各縣市636億也放在最佳預算裡面進來了今天行政院在放風這636億違法克扣各縣市的一般性補助款現在沒有要發回啊"},{"start":29382.961,"end":29411.625,"text":"還要提申請制啊不一定照原來苛扣的款還給大家本身聽不懂有必要完成這樣嗎我們今天在省的240而已就是636以外的240而已我們今天是在陪你們陪你們在討論陪民進黨在討論但你最基本的這636要依法"},{"start":29414.325,"end":29437.823,"text":"還給各縣市的 到現在民進黨都還不簽 除了柯總召議員都不簽這636以外 本來就應該還給人家的本身現在鄭重啊 如果民進黨還在把各縣市綁起來當肉票"},{"start":29441.243,"end":29468.932,"text":"你們要用這種永無止境的方式來對付各縣市政府我們一定沒完沒了今天242億的審查是你們多加出來回編本席都很耐心國民黨團還是很耐心但是你的636都沒有打算要還的話那我們今天在審查什麼我們在審查什麼"},{"start":29470.646,"end":29494.892,"text":"已經這麼善意了本席今天下午也沒有發言晚上只要確認各縣市政府能拿回他們違法被刪除的一般性補助款我們在卑躬屈膝啊只有柯總召還知道朝野要和諧柯總召簽了"},{"start":29496.991,"end":29514.529,"text":"我們各黨團三組簽 他們現在還不簽我簽的代表你代表 你確定那好 你把另外兩個人你都簽名你就寫柯建民代我說明給你聽嘛說明給你聽現在"},{"start":29517.343,"end":29535.98,"text":"不要急我現在再問一下副總召一個問題針對總統府合併市長所提希望3.1千萬剩下剛剛好嘛現在是程序問題嘛如果說他根本問題沒有解決我們到底要審查什麼嘛他636現在都不給我們到底要審查什麼東西啊"},{"start":29541.741,"end":29547.143,"text":"地方補助款的事情台灣民眾黨黨團有提一個案子我們最後再講一個國家的行政院院長搞擄人勒贖"},{"start":29568.939,"end":29594.765,"text":"搞擄人而贖我們今天是為了救小孩我忍痛附贖金但並不代表綁匪的法律責任政治責任我們不會追究話先講到這裡第二個剛剛總統府的代表所講的高深的法律見解我完全聽不懂我為什麼說我完全聽不懂立法院三讀通過的法律案"},{"start":29596.294,"end":29621.555,"text":"對於這一些因這個法律而取得公法上金錢請求權的人國家負有義務這個公法上的金錢請求權是不會因為你有沒有編預算而有所差別這個公法上的金錢請求權從立法三讀總統公布了以後就已經發生了但是"},{"start":29622.717,"end":29648.332,"text":"我們的總統說我已經提釋憲了所以我可以先不編預算那是不是請賴清德總統昭告全中華民國國民未來任何人只要申請釋憲幫等結果你也不用等什麼根本不要申請暫時主憤幹嘛申請暫時主憤我只要申請就發生效力啦我只要申請就可以不要給啊"},{"start":29650.206,"end":29675.547,"text":"還是只有賴清德可以這樣其他人都不可以這樣台灣還是法治國家嗎可以用釋憲來當作遮羞布嗎我只要釋憲我該給的錢可以不要給這什麼道理那以後你們要跟人民討錢任何的案子只要申請釋憲大家都可以不要給"},{"start":29678.215,"end":29703.854,"text":"這個是中華民國現在的憲政秩序跟法律制度嗎是這個樣子嗎我還是回到一開始的起點這一次追加預算沒有說明清楚到底是符合79條第三款什麼重大事由在法律上面根本連提這個追加預算案的法律基礎都沒有"},{"start":29705.182,"end":29732.669,"text":"那既然沒有這個法律基礎把刪掉的東西再補回來然後要立法院通過你如果真的要這樣子玩的話那麻煩行政部門先推動預算法的修法79條再加第四款經國會刪除的預算經國會刪除的預算我還可以再派追加預算給補回來那否則的話我們支持提案委員的案子全部刪除"},{"start":29733.717,"end":29760.43,"text":"了解 好 我們請吳世耀委員發言完畢之後我們會休息十分鐘 請吳世耀委員請發言是建議一下主席 院長因為我們有案子的順序那因為剛剛是傅坤吉總召他是優先針對剛剛各黨在聯署的那個6361的部分他先請大家再釐清一下那民進黨團我們當然在乎6361用追加方式來協助地方政府編回所以大家坐在這裡嘛"},{"start":29762.216,"end":29767.366,"text":"剛剛副總召也不要說民進黨沒有簽名我們柯建民總召大大三個字就簽在那裡"},{"start":29768.584,"end":29796.018,"text":"那我們剛剛在跟羅志強首席副書記長書記長 對不起有在溝通就是說在這個主決議的文字上希望能夠在溝通再做一個精確的調整因為剛剛這個主決議是說636議在總預算完成刪讀之後怎麼樣補回的那個時間點是立即將追加的預算撥回我們也同意只是說主計他們有他們作業的規定"},{"start":29797.779,"end":29819.969,"text":"所以就是一我們只希望加三個字一規定一所有的預算法的規定有的是按月或是按期因為計劃不一樣所以我們只是希望說能夠這個是方便主計人員他能夠作業所以說一規定放三個字就可以立即把它撥回"},{"start":29820.709,"end":29840.561,"text":"那依規定是什麼有的按月有的按期我已經說明了那我覺得大家的方向是一致的所以副總召不要說我們反對啊這個帽子太大我們也戴不起啊所以我們是希望大家都精準也協助我們這些主計單位能夠執行得宜那主決議很清楚"},{"start":29841.261,"end":29864.154,"text":"所以 拜託 我先跟副總召做這個說明你剛才這樣說到這麼大聲 讓我們玩弄要不要讓我們說明一下我們是做回那個規定的事情 做到比較好就這樣而已好不好 不要一開始才進第二案就因為那個六三六一 大家搞得這麼僵好嗎 這個部分希望能夠大家再有個共識好 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":30658.191,"end":30659.471,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐好謝謝"},{"start":30691.762,"end":30702.019,"text":"謝謝那針對第一款總統府主管的第四案總統府提出三減一千萬各黨團有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":30704.614,"end":30728.389,"text":"翁曉琳委員 田安委員請再說明是我們剛剛跟總統府這裡已經討論過就考量到總統府的水電費 新聞發布還有他們的參與費就是員工特別的辛苦所以我們總統府的其實就連同五六案因為五六案是一起的那麼這邊的話我們就同意就是讓總統府這裡就追加八百萬追加八百 全部追加"},{"start":30730.014,"end":30747.22,"text":"就暗號第五案跟暗號第六案對 五六案加起來就是何副民長 您意見請補充謝謝委員支持四五六 抱歉四五六加起來就是請何副民長 黃國昌總召請準備"},{"start":30750.549,"end":30775.746,"text":"如果是一樣案號四的部分我們是否維持刪除一千然後案號第五跟第六案留八百萬的預算給我們好嗎再拜託沒有我們剛剛的談法是說因為包含民眾黨的這個還有國民黨的七八案國安會的意志這邊基本上都是建議就是全刪"},{"start":30776.687,"end":30802.693,"text":"所以我們現在就是剛剛討論的方向是四五六加起來其實就是八百萬這個何副民長跟翁委員之間落差很大同樣是八百 意義完全不一樣他是整個三千三十個留八百剩下那五六七八支已經調整但是您的意思是說三一千五六留八百這意義完全不一樣"},{"start":30805.087,"end":30808.15,"text":"我們現在 明明你等一下我們請黃國昌總統先發言好嗎好 請黃國昌請總統主管我請你稍等好不好黃國昌請"},{"start":30819.946,"end":30841.116,"text":"總統府跟國民黨團提案的委員要討論我都尊重畢竟你們跟國民黨提案的委員討論國民黨提案的委員提的提議針對國民黨的提案同意不同意我原則上都會尊重但剛剛總統府從來沒有來找台灣民眾黨黨團溝通"},{"start":30844.514,"end":30874.217,"text":"所以你們在討論的時候一口氣把台灣民眾黨黨團的五案六案都包進去讓我覺得非常的困惑我從來沒有參與討論什麼時候我們黨團的提案可以這樣子被人家決定我無法理解所以第四案要怎麼處理我都尊重台灣民眾黨黨團第五案第六案都堅持這個是我們黨團的立場以上說明好 謝謝柯總統請那我講一下好了"},{"start":30875.266,"end":30901.289,"text":"現在講國民黨的提案嘛那就是第四案嘛就是減一千萬OK副總召那個副院長你跟翁委員講法不太一樣沒關係啊那個主席啊副總召請那個因為說實在我要跟主席抱歉一下因為待會我剛剛不堅持不行啦"},{"start":30902.15,"end":30930.067,"text":"因為那636要給各縣市政府的大家都很著急我跟院長報告完嘛 不要急嘛那因為柯總召他很誠意說他已經簽字了我怕他明天早上被罷免掉那個就不算了 你知道嗎所以呢所以我是覺得說他們還是三長都簽的比較保險一點抱歉啦抱歉啦雖然我們熱烈支持啦 好不好那個柯總召這樣子啦 好不好那你說要減1000嘛"},{"start":30931.528,"end":30950.488,"text":"但是我們還是要尊重這個提案委員叫33000啦那是我們這樣子啦因為畢竟民眾黨黃總召所提的第五案第六案那另案討論第五案第六案啦我們先談第四案嘛沒關係我們現在三案一併處理好不好第五案第六案我們尊重"},{"start":30951.249,"end":30977.836,"text":"我們尊重民眾黨 國民黨也支持民眾黨第五案 第六案那第四案的部分因為和福民主黨來談都三個案一起談嘛那所以我們第五案 第六案我們尊重民眾黨的提案那個簡略的部分尊重民眾黨那對於第四案的部分呢本黨可以再退一些啦我們就刪一千五百萬啦 好不好"},{"start":30979.329,"end":30985.031,"text":"這裡面有個重大差別就是第七案第八案也是總統府主管是不是要含進去"},{"start":31009.763,"end":31014.466,"text":"那個 核複密核複密"},{"start":31039.384,"end":31049.393,"text":"副委員已經走了你剛跟本黨說第四第五第六案你只要加起來給你800萬就夠了我們現在給你1800萬好不好"},{"start":31057.762,"end":31074.826,"text":"那個何副部長這裡有第七案跟第八案喔是 我知道通通是總 我提醒你一下麻煩你看一下如果這個數字留下來照副總召所提留一千五百萬您這還有第七案跟第八案秀米秀米在哪裡我這邊到底 你這邊要留多少你這邊要留多少"},{"start":31088.127,"end":31109.202,"text":"五六七八加起來一三八八嘛一三八八就三五一三八八嘛就照民眾黨的三一千八八那這個就全部結束了五六七八總共三一千三一六加"},{"start":31118.011,"end":31134.203,"text":"5 6 7 8 照案通過啦對啊第四案就不要啦第四案當然不必啦對 就是5 6 7 8 照案 第四案就不用了對啊"},{"start":31141.707,"end":31167.079,"text":"那就是五六七八第四案就不用了對 因為他是西向嘛五六七八加起來就好了嘛各位黨團幹部我們算了一下也跟何副民進黨報告一下我們五六七八四個案子在總統府主管這邊我們三千三百二十萬我們簡列一千三百九十萬這個報告主席 報告院長"},{"start":31168.239,"end":31179.003,"text":"我們委員會審得很辛苦 那個兩百萬還是要把它加進來啦不能夠包在裡面啦我們這麼努力在審你這個我們都不算不好啦沒有重疊 沒有重疊沒有重疊啦新聞發布那一條就重疊了啊沒有 我們兩百是大象裡面兩百大象兩百"},{"start":31196.384,"end":31200.611,"text":"因為剛剛歐小玲委員也說支持新聞發佈嘛對不對"},{"start":31212.793,"end":31225.037,"text":"好 各黨的幹部 我們跟提案委員賴世保委員 召委也協調過了1900萬 我們就是2000萬整就不要加200萬 再加那邊2390就1900 已經1900加尾數也就1900哪1900 1390啦1390 對 就是114001500 對不對好 我們就刪除1500萬 減了1500可以嗎1390就好 寶哥剛剛沒有意見嗎好的"},{"start":31244.403,"end":31266.173,"text":"那柯木他們自行去協調囉好 讓我從事讓我宣告一下好嗎我們第四案第五案 第六案 第七案 第八案我們總共檢列一千五百萬然後項目結授權總統府自行調整"},{"start":31268.578,"end":31297.911,"text":"好 感謝院長對 對 對 沒關係我們請黃國昌總 請在座院院長對不起喔 我剛剛已經說了台灣民眾黨第五案 第六案剛剛我以為討論的順序到第五案 第六案嘛我已經說明五六案我會堅持好 第七案我們一併堅持其他的案子要怎麼調整我沒有意見所以剛剛是依民眾黨的五六七八 全三然後再處理第四五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六七 五六"},{"start":31299.037,"end":31314.744,"text":"我理解沒有錯的話 剛才黃總統所談的是第五 第六 第七 他堅持吧對不對 一般堅持的設備就不必了嘛好不好不是不是不是"},{"start":31316.727,"end":31343.442,"text":"那個主席我提醒一下我現在提醒一下因為我們本來第四案是包5678對不對因為5678其實你看第一項它原列也是1583萬就是說如果我們今天5678全部減列事實上會超出我剛算如果光是第一項跟第二項"},{"start":31344.002,"end":31344.664,"text":"是2394萬就是1583加上811你要看簡列數啊"},{"start":31352.503,"end":31359.608,"text":"三百一十六啊加一百四十八要看那個減劣數減劣三百一十六對然後再加減劣八百一十一完全沒問題啊但是好等一下喔第二項因為這個全部的是八百一十一萬那如果七八都維持的話就會減劣超過八百一十一萬這個我想提醒一下"},{"start":31377.813,"end":31406.688,"text":"沒有問題我們現在總共檢列一千五剩下授權總統府他就自行調整我們現在所有檢列包括台灣民眾黨所提的通通沒有超過一千五這個數字這個沒有問題啊不是啊 那個主席啊我覺得現在可能是累了大家一點忙點啦我們做一個最後的確認啦就是民眾黨所提的第七案召喚通過五六案召喚通過"},{"start":31408.148,"end":31426.519,"text":"這三個通過了刪減的數字811萬加148萬加316萬加起來以後不足1500的部分由總統府自行調整就這樣可以啦所以我"},{"start":31434.651,"end":31460.701,"text":"何副秘書長 我們現在黨會已經做成這樣決定了總統府 請說明管理會副秘書長報告一下這個第七案第七案是811萬元這裡面有關車子的部分我先報告車子 我就遵照委員的指導把車子的部分就放掉了那剩下的兩項呢一個是聘僱人員的待遇"},{"start":31461.281,"end":31472.417,"text":"是200万然后另外一个是日常的基本运作行政费是171万如果大家允许的话我建议是不是可以留个600万给我们谢谢"},{"start":31474.641,"end":31498.985,"text":"主席 通常人事費根本不在追加預算裡面我們這次已經是特別通融了過去什麼時候人事費還來追加的呢所以不要再拿人事費來這邊爭取追加了好不好人事費是可以追加的 不是不能追加反正科目自行調整就好了嘛科目自行調整就好了因為我們事實上是保留了一點彈性"},{"start":31500.849,"end":31527.697,"text":"剩下就自行調整就是剛剛副總召說的那個方式你們回去調啦可以了啦好 因為你何副長可以啦 那個何副主席就剛剛那個主席啊 是主席啊剛剛已經裁試了嘛怎麼又回來了呢我現在已經跟他們講完了不是啊 我們現在就直接已經到下一案啦好 下一案啦到第九案啦我們就直接討論第九案啦謝謝委員支持我們就照我剛剛的宣告科目自行調整好 謝謝總統府情"},{"start":31529.697,"end":31548.548,"text":"主席 主席可不可以拜託讓科目讓我們自行調整好不好一定講啦好 感謝你宣告囉好謝謝院長自行調整謝謝委員謝謝我們進入第二款行政院主管第九案翁曉琳委員提請提案委員翁曉琳委員表達意見"},{"start":31549.72,"end":31572.433,"text":"我的理由還是跟剛剛之前講的一樣就是這次行政院他們所追加的這個預算數除了有關於軍人待遇的那個調整的這個部分之外然後其餘的部分基本上都是將我們之前原來刪減的又把它回邊回來那麼基本上是沒有理由而且像是中選會"},{"start":31574.194,"end":31589.264,"text":"中選會的這個15億的費用其實他們在之前7月份的時候行政院就已經同意給他們一個這個動用第二預備金那麼他們現在又再透過追加預算然後又來"},{"start":31590.465,"end":31606.516,"text":"編了這個錢在裡面所以呢我在這邊是主張就是說是這個他們所追加的錢就應該要大部分都要刪除所以在這裡的話就是建議減列22億零五百七十萬九千元謝謝提案委員說明那請問民進黨團跟台灣民進黨民眾黨團有沒有寶貴的意見要補充"},{"start":31621.018,"end":31628.944,"text":"好 請黃國昌總召發言 民進黨團請準備支持翁委員提案現在請民進黨團請發言"},{"start":31632.861,"end":31655.562,"text":"好主席我們可不可以確認一下因為目前歐小林委員的版本是從行政院主管裡面的40多億就直接刪掉20幾億這邊我們是不是可以請行政院說明一下那或者是請歐小林委員您剛剛雖然有提到包含中選會的部分或者是您覺得不認同的部分但是我想在這些項目以外還有沒有別的您所在意的也許也可以請主管機關說明謝謝"},{"start":31659.099,"end":31688.126,"text":"有些地方我在更正 好 請對 在行政院他們所追加的45億多的這筆錢裡面我只有認同就是同意補助援助民的進法補償的費用22億570萬的這個部分這個部分的話是依法可以追加預算的除此之外的所有的費用基本上都不"},{"start":31688.866,"end":31709.105,"text":"符合追加預算的要件那麼同時在這次的這個45億裡面還包含了中選會的罷免的15億元我剛已經講過了這個在今年7月份主計總處已經同意他們可以動用第二預備金而且在過去"},{"start":31710.905,"end":31732.742,"text":"中選會所辦理的選舉罷免公投的業務都是利用第二預備金所以它根本不符合追加預算的要件所以在這裡還有其他的費用的話就像是什麼設備費或是什麼基本運作費這些都不是屬於追加預算裡面的這樣子好不好我跟各黨團幹部建議"},{"start":31735.224,"end":31756.924,"text":"對 我就這個意思因為你現在第九項你現在一項刪下去之後後面的變成對不起又出現新的問題所以我建議各黨團幹部我們是不是從第十案開始到最後我們再回推到第九案來討論 好嗎好不好 這樣子將來未來會比較精確一點好不好 好 我們第九案先等一下留待回頭再討論我們第十案行政院"},{"start":31763.749,"end":31785.391,"text":"我們先從11案一般行政開始我們 我知道 9案 10案我們會回頭來討論 好不好這個第11案一般行政國民黨團檢列25%國民黨團請說明主席總署有沒有意見可以接受嗎一般行政檢列25%"},{"start":31787.947,"end":31805.555,"text":"請秘書長解說因為這個跟那個王委員已經有講是減裂25%我們已經同意了行政院接受那跟各黨團報告一下我們第11案一般行政減裂25%我們修正通過那個"},{"start":31809.455,"end":31828.843,"text":"還有第十二我們併案處理 檢列270萬請問一下台灣民眾黨團這是貴黨團提案 請表達意見就行政院同意就好了報告主席我們就修正通過 檢列25"},{"start":31830.572,"end":31857.227,"text":"好的 那可不可以那個委員會的那個檢列187萬也併在這裡面 總共減25%對啊 當然併在一起啊可以嗎大包小 委員會下午審查那個是吧 對對性質不一樣 它是檢列特資費喔 好不好也是一般行政啊 特資費也是一般行政啊黃國昌 黃主導請發言 請"},{"start":31861.653,"end":31876.649,"text":"院長對不起我只要確認一件事剛剛您宣告的是只有第11案嘛對不對沒有我12案我不同意包進去喔我12案是請他同意喔我12案沒有要包進去那25%喔"},{"start":31881.088,"end":31886.775,"text":"就是外加的啦我如果同意內包進去的話那我案子不就不見了是 沒錯"},{"start":31896.476,"end":31920.945,"text":"院長這樣的處理是十一十二案共計減列百分之二十五國民黨團跟民眾黨團的提案都有然後共計減列百分之二十五這樣兩個黨團都有吳幹長不是這個意思黃手高我知道不要解沒有因為他提案黨團他可以發言你也可以發言沒問題我們現在請沒有現在兩個黨團都發言我們請國民黨團王宏威"},{"start":31923.267,"end":31929.096,"text":"這個我要補充說明一下在委員會的審查裡面我們檢列25%沒有問題但是這25%裡面必須包含"},{"start":31938.112,"end":31951.967,"text":"必須包含秘書長的特資費187萬9千元可以 這不是我 是所有行政院的特資費不是我的而已 是所有行政院的特資費"},{"start":31954.349,"end":31967.141,"text":"喔 妳剛沒講 對不起 對不起那個 等一下等一下 來秘書長就是除了25%以外另外加秘書長特殊費187萬9千元這是我們那個委員會他們的這個決議"},{"start":31981.668,"end":31983.552,"text":"對 簡列 就是我們簡列總共25%在外加秘書長特殊費這個當然這個主要"},{"start":31993.063,"end":31997.785,"text":"對 187萬9千元這個在秘書長特賜費主要是針對其實包含政務委員陳時中針對他這個選罷法 限訴法 裁劃法表示行政院長不應該附屬而且公開站台支持大罷免沒有遵守行政中立另外政務委員林明新在外交部分"},{"start":32019.734,"end":32030.683,"text":"失禮然後又去扯說他預算被刪都逾越了教務委員的憤濟所以在這個部分我們處理這個特資費的部分 以上現在11案跟第12案跟秘書長還有各黨團交換一下意見"},{"start":32043.683,"end":32051.969,"text":"那2925萬減列25%之外再加特資費187萬再加減列270萬7千總共是1189萬8特別跟秘書長交換一下意見"},{"start":32081.049,"end":32094.296,"text":"呃 應該全部包在一起才對啦好 柯總統請發言我覺得不是一直加上去 應該全部包在一起才對通常我們預算審查 預算審查這麼多年來一向是如此大包小的委員會小的也被委員會大包掉了黃總統你提案黨團請表達意見"},{"start":32105.307,"end":32117.257,"text":"我這樣講好了啦如果要大包小也可以啊那我們就支持翁委員前面的案子他那個大的案子過了我們後面小的都不用討論全部包進去就好啦這樣子最有效率啦嘿"},{"start":32119.142,"end":32134.609,"text":"換句話說再回到第九案是 沒有錯因為如果今天要討論大包小那沒有關係那我們就回到最大的嘛這樣才符合邏輯啊那最大的如果大家都通過了那小的後面全部都一併包進去就不用花這麼多時間討論了是 那個檢列量二十幾億"},{"start":32142.174,"end":32166.497,"text":"因為這其實本來就不應該要編的他就是你們本來我們在就已經刪減你們要把它回編回來而且沒有急迫性你說施政法制的什麼聯繫這哪有什麼急迫性也不符合重大事故對後面這些其實這些概念都是這樣你到了馬上明年就有新的預算要做也是可以做報告院長我提一下好不好"},{"start":32169.936,"end":32182.105,"text":"我支持翁委員的22億這一條因為裡面有包括15億15億的公投以及罷免這個錢都已經花了預備金也都用了為什麼還來這裡跟我們要呢"},{"start":32184.499,"end":32205.357,"text":"對不對15億這個15億在15億4千多萬這裡面所以我們就討論大包小大第二款全部包 統統包一個案子就好了後面都不要討論了一個案子就好了裡面就有一個15億啦15億啦所以其他的很少啦老實講所以討論這件就夠啦律長說明好了"},{"start":32208.241,"end":32229.717,"text":"呃 那個 主席長啊 你回答之前你要稍微思考一下因為這個一下又結構性的整個就調過來了好 請 陳主席長呃 這個部分因為你如果刪減22億等於說行政院它所有的它都被刪減掉了那總共要 我們先不要發言讓陳主席長講話嘛"},{"start":32232.249,"end":32248.083,"text":"他的講話很重要嘛第一個 如果說原來的罷免15億因為我們當初是想說他是動二倍金那因為二倍金我們是希望說像有時候9月或10月他還是會有颱風我們希望二倍金能夠回復"},{"start":32248.883,"end":32265.452,"text":"才會又把它列為追加是這樣這是第一個原有那第二個就是說如果說這個部分已經動惡背經之外三檢的之外我們因為我們行政院主管總共有18個主管18個主管那每個人當初被"},{"start":32266.753,"end":32286.218,"text":"三檢譬如說有一些是屬於三檢又不能流用的部分譬如說它會造成執行的困難所以這個部分才要提出來做追加那這個部分如果22億全部三檢之後它就全部的所有機關通通三檢掉了完全都沒有是這樣子"},{"start":32288.408,"end":32315.198,"text":"陳主席現在講的很重要的兩個重點我要請各黨團幹部大家來思考一下因為這個就是影響到如果是一把就是22億後面我們都不用再討論了我的意思是說我們總要各黨團意見那個民進黨團有沒有寶貴意見民進黨團好吧 我們休息一下討論一下好不好我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":32316.98,"end":32329.071,"text":"綠扣掉剩下7億這裡就是說綠扣掉剩下7億對 6億多 6億多這裡有6億多不是 我先進化補償是多少我知道進化補償是23億多23億"},{"start":33207.401,"end":33226.08,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部大家這溝通的好 謝謝黃金十分鐘非常有效我們"},{"start":33229.324,"end":33251.759,"text":"終於初步達成共識好 我們請吳世耀幹事長請宣布 請宣讀一下沒有 我待會說明 我不敢宣布好 請說明因為行政院這邊45億7396萬數字蠻大的所以剛剛各黨大家花了一點時間彙聚一下共識所以我這邊僅代表剛剛大家討論的狀況我如果有說錯大家可以更正"},{"start":33252.68,"end":33260.064,"text":"就是說這一筆當中呢大家很在乎的原住民進法補償的經費那23億多那個都應當補回這個沒有問題那在野黨委員對於中選會的公投及罷免的經費在第11項裡面的15億多有意見好那都刪除沒有問題"},{"start":33271.969,"end":33299.844,"text":"OK所以第十五項的這個十五億這個第十一項的十五億五千多萬這都刪除沒有問題那接下來呢民眾黨委員的個別案子這個黃國昌總召見時民眾黨的個案都要刪除那我們試算一下大概是一億左右那就是都予以尊重民眾黨的每個案子都予以照他的刪減數那剩下來呢就是國民黨委員這邊"},{"start":33301.405,"end":33323.911,"text":"他願意刪我們剛剛總數算了大概是1.6億1.6億所以說就是民眾黨的個別案子全刪1億左右然後再加上國民黨的提案裡面他們總數願意刪1.6億那其他讓他們項目自行調整我不曉得我的報告是不是各黨都接受"},{"start":33324.953,"end":33347.574,"text":"剩下4億了我知道 請賴思寶委員 請說明好 這個我再補充一下吳思堯幹事長所提到的民眾黨我給他加起來就是1億146萬那其他不足的部分我們就補到2億6剩下4億給他們就這樣子好 謝謝賴思寶 找回你的說明請王紅委員 請發言"},{"start":33349.727,"end":33371.218,"text":"刚才就是我们这个删除的金额我们有什么意见但是在删除金额里面我们待会要做一个主决议就是那个删除金额里面必须包括我刚才那个要修正一下包含这个行政院行政院院长副院长秘书长副秘书长的特制费一共187万9千元"},{"start":33373.519,"end":33375.442,"text":"我們會在主決議裡面沒有問題 那國民黨也回答過那個台灣民眾黨團前面有沒有補充意見"},{"start":33383.484,"end":33403.755,"text":"沒有啦 反正剛剛講的 院長講的宣告我就一樣一樣確認嘛台灣民眾黨黨團第十案召喚通過嘛然後第十二案召喚通過嘛第十三案召喚通過嘛那現在是處理到第十五也全部召喚通過嘛"},{"start":33405.916,"end":33419.827,"text":"然後19案也全部召喚通過20也召喚通過21也召喚通過27也召喚通過嗎29案也召喚通過嗎31也召喚通過嗎33還沒有然後32也召喚通過嗎"},{"start":33431.384,"end":33445.564,"text":"到3億嘛 可以啊 只要我的照案都通過就可以還有29案 裡面漏掉了還有個29案有有有 剛有講了剛才沒念的 沒看有補充一下好 這樣很清楚了 謝謝好 很清楚了"},{"start":33955.116,"end":33961.831,"text":"各位黨團幹部請坐各位列席的官員請坐我們現在來宣告三黨共識"},{"start":33966.451,"end":33988.667,"text":"第九案到第三十一案我們行政院主管我們留下禁法補償二十三億六千八百二十五萬四千元加四億新台幣另外其中台灣民眾黨團所提議 全案通過"},{"start":33990.649,"end":34013.298,"text":"另外國民黨團所提議特資費一百八十七萬九千以及聯合服務業務費兩千五百五十六萬八千元還有二十四案大家請看中選會的簡列十五億四千三百二十四萬兩千元都要包括在內"},{"start":34021.637,"end":34043.512,"text":"對 劉思宜講過了好 如果沒有意見 好 謝謝自己調整他會自己調整嘛 好不好 請行政院自己調整 謝謝好 我們現在進入32案我們32 司法院主管"},{"start":34046.598,"end":34066.247,"text":"台灣民眾黨團檢列627萬5千一般行政 請台灣民眾黨團請說明這全部都是去年那個對不起啊 那個議場 會場拜託保持一下宿敬好不好 不好意思啊謝謝啊 謝謝 謝謝行政院列席的各級各級閣員 謝謝啊 好因為沒選票一開始也刪過啦"},{"start":34078.032,"end":34098.548,"text":"黃國昌總召請說明這個都是去年本來就刪掉的東西根本不符合預算法的要件其他機關法律條文看不懂司法院不會也看不懂吧是符合第三款什麼要件我完全看不懂其他機關預算法看不懂司法院不會也看不懂吧"},{"start":34102.28,"end":34124.085,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員的總召的說明我們請司法院立席李廷長請說明謝謝主席那我們會在我們原意核定的運算劃分內尊嚴使用那我們尊重委員的提案 部長好 那我們就檢列627萬5千第32案那司法院也接受請問民進黨團跟國民黨團有沒有意見聯席會檢列1000萬算什麼"},{"start":34149.986,"end":34157.328,"text":"剛剛既然已經司法院我們表示尊重司法院同意民眾黨所提的這個案子那我們這個案就給他照案通過"},{"start":34158.595,"end":34182.217,"text":"好 謝謝國民黨團補充 郭明聯席會的部分 聯席會檢定一千萬還是有啊這個都有啦 這個都有啦他們已經同意了嘛好 謝謝啊我們一千加就百二七啦對啦"},{"start":34184.965,"end":34201.242,"text":"來 監察院換監察院了監察院等一下我去查一下"},{"start":34203.551,"end":34216.779,"text":"那個補 補宣告一下第九案到第三十一案的那個凍結部分我們就 要照列好 補宣告 我們現在進入三十三案監察院台灣民眾黨團請說明"},{"start":34221.052,"end":34245.673,"text":"監察院的預算他們之前有需要動用第二預備金我們也同意了監察院過去這段時間的表現我相信也是全體國人有目共睹這樣子的一個憲政上面的盲腸然後把去年減掉的錢又再編回來要傳遞給社會什麼樣的訊息"},{"start":34248.53,"end":34274.537,"text":"今天因為為了要配合你們審查預算的需要本院八個委員會聯席的會議時間也被壓縮得非常短所以很多該處理的問題都沒有處理你們之前濫用公務車的事情五月的時候副院長對社會說會盡速處理"},{"start":34277.911,"end":34304.352,"text":"現在已經八月要結束了五月說要盡速處理到現在八月都要結束了結果我們去問你們到底什麼時候要開會然後七月做一個假動作開會然後八月突然宣布說整個委員會要全部重新改選社會上面這麼注目的事情你們之前在彈劾其他官員的時候手也沒軟過啊"},{"start":34305.902,"end":34328.027,"text":"怎麼遇到監察委員自己在胡搞瞎搞的事情的時候整個監察院的表現讓全體國人看不下去啊非常的失望你表現你如果是這樣子的表現的話把刪掉的預算還要來這邊再追回去沒有辦法接受也沒有辦法支持"},{"start":34330.12,"end":34336.36,"text":"好 謝謝台灣民眾黨團的提案黨團說明請問其他黨團有沒有意見好 請民進黨團請說明"},{"start":34337.605,"end":34363.795,"text":"好關於監察院的部分之前在刪減預算的部分已經被刪掉2.6億對不對好這個數字我想先確定一下所以現在你們提出來追加預算大概是7762萬多那如果我算的沒有錯其實這7000多萬佔之前刪減的2.6億其實不到三成那我想我們之前很關心的幾個業務項目也許可以請你們幫我們說明關於第一個我覺得大家都非常在意"},{"start":34364.315,"end":34387.17,"text":"各位在座的立法委員也會非常在意就是關於系統維護還有資訊安全的部分尤其是政治現今的申報因為之前就有相關的說法說可能會影響到不管是因為電腦的部分伺服器的部分系統維護的部分這個部分請你們說明是不是你們原本抱在這七千多萬裡面想要進來追加預算的再來就是之前我們也聽聞"},{"start":34388.591,"end":34408.397,"text":"也有相關單位跟我們澄清其實不是監察院跟我們澄清是有相關社福單位因為他們承接了監察院相關的業務所以好像有被欠薪的部分這個部分也請你們一併說明是不是在這一次七千多萬當中還有上一次我們特別開過一個會議我還記得陳玉珍委員也在現場就是關於提到國際會議的部分那個論壇上次我記得是三百多萬"},{"start":34417.02,"end":34434.065,"text":"700多萬 這個部分也請你們說明一下是不是都含在裡頭那至於在野黨的委員非常在意的 不管是特別費啦員工教育訓練 文康費 出國考察費 沒宣費 退休人三節慰問獎金之類等等的你們有算在這目前送進來的7000多萬裡頭嗎也請你們一併說明喔 謝謝"},{"start":34440.444,"end":34447.23,"text":"那個民進黨團所提出來那個國民黨團請稍後我們先請監察員說明好嗎因為這幾個有很重要的幾個要點"},{"start":34449.639,"end":34466.186,"text":"主席各位委員監察院做分別做說明有關於剛剛黃委員所提的幾件事情第一件事情就是的確是在六月份的時候我們有動之第二於北京是750萬元然後新台幣750萬元那是針對我們9月3號到5號要開的一個國際會議"},{"start":34474.629,"end":34491.197,"text":"馬上就要舉行了所以有經過財政委員會的通過是沒有問題的這次監察院提出來7762萬就剛剛跟陳委員講的是完全正確的我們被刪除的預算是2.6億這次提出來7762萬的部分"},{"start":34496.779,"end":34513.674,"text":"的确是我们已经非常的尊洁非常尊洁都是非常必要的费用那当然就包括目前我们所已经需要的一整年到八月份我们所需要的一些水费电费或者是电话费等等的"},{"start":34514.535,"end":34536.05,"text":"這些費用那另外呢剛剛委員講的沒錯我們是有麻煩伊甸基金會來幫監察院來做相關的清潔維護的工作那從1月份到8月我們都沒有辦法支付相關的就是支付相關的費用那累積起來已經超過200萬元"},{"start":34537.851,"end":34561.079,"text":"所以事實上另外有關於系統的部分因為我們現在是一個非常資安的一個重視資安的一個國家機關而且是A級機關我們目前有37個的系統其中還有包括財政申報 政治獻金等等的"},{"start":34561.559,"end":34573.465,"text":"那其中包括財產申報的部分其實是跟6萬個公職人員都相關那目前也3月1號開始就沒有辦法借財產那我們其實已經"},{"start":34577.708,"end":34593.18,"text":"收到非常多的反應會造成公職人員非常大的困擾那這個公職人員都只好用手動用紙本來申報這樣子是非常的沒有行政效率而且容易報錯這個不是監察院願意有這樣子的狀況其實我們財產界階已經"},{"start":34599.125,"end":34626.341,"text":"高達95%那本來是一個非常好的一個制度跟系統其實受益的都是全體的公職人員然後另外的話就是這次7762萬絕對沒有包括任何的特別費也沒有包括任何的媒宣其實監察院在提出這樣子的追加非常的尊潔跟自我益智"},{"start":34626.977,"end":34655.065,"text":"都是非常必要的費用這以上我先做這樣的說明那黃委員黃委員剛提到的其實我們看到民眾黨所提出的提案裡面有提到兩個重要的案件一個是就是因接受性招待的官員然後經過檢察官起訴的官員的這個案件其實這個案件是"},{"start":34656.525,"end":34680.486,"text":"因為監察院有調查以後移到台南地檢所以才起訴那這個案件在監察院並沒有結束我們已經開始啟動複查就是已經開始啟動另外的複查目前有三位委員在調查中所以跟黃委員說明一下那至於另外的話"},{"start":34682.15,"end":34695.608,"text":"另外的話有關於公務車使用的部分其實警察院也非常了解外界非常的注意我們副院長李鴻鈞副院長也非常重視這件事情"},{"start":34697.29,"end":34724.121,"text":"在六月份的時候因為有兩兩位陳情人來檢舉我們在六月六號的時候移到移到紀律委員會在處理那七月十一號呢已經開過一次第一次的會議那不過呢監察院的確是在七月三十一號會換屆會換屆那這個委員會會換屆原來七七位的紀律委員會完全換成新的他不得連任"},{"start":34724.841,"end":34744.911,"text":"所以呢會交給新的紀律委員會來處理那目前其實案件已經已經有進行相關的程序調查程序那在不日內應該在9月會有比較明確的一個程序出來以上先說明"},{"start":34746.928,"end":34773.869,"text":"謝謝王太林秘書長的說明那您剛剛所提的跟我們兩位委員因為提案的台灣民眾黨團是基本上要全部都刪除嘛對不對那民進黨團這邊是希望怕你迫切需要所以我一個折衷建議就是是不是跟黨團溝通一下就是說今天台灣現在迫切需要的這個費用大概是多少你可以稍微準備一下沒關係你先不用回答因為還有其他委員要發言只是說"},{"start":34775.302,"end":34800.687,"text":"很籠統的如果講出一個七千多現在有提案黨團說變成三成全部刪除跟您之間就會產生落差那我是說您思考一下等一下還會有其他委員發言好嗎好剛才哪位舉手的來 吳思瑤委員請發言確實監察院這邊還是得做出一點取捨當然我們執政黨團都非常清楚知道"},{"start":34801.246,"end":34820.156,"text":"你們的送出來的預算7762萬都有其必要都希望能夠在追加裡頭能夠補回我們都理解但你們剛剛在場也看到剛剛前面討論過的每一個部會是都是必要做一些折衝那我替你們算過了"},{"start":34824.113,"end":34849.339,"text":"最重要是該付給人家的一定得付那剛剛說的你們該付給人家的包括有一些私人廠商的委外的工作的費用其中當然有伊甸基金會大概兩百萬可是你要付給私人廠商大概有兩千萬左右對不對另外水電費是一定得付的水電費大概七百多萬對不對"},{"start":34850.459,"end":34872.926,"text":"然後還有這個系統維護系統維護真的是我們立法委員政治獻金都是那個專戶需要使用的我的助理也一直在說現在很難操作所以跟院長報告我是試著替他們算他們預計今年底這個不是留在監裁院自己花用是要付給廠商的就已經將近五千萬了"},{"start":34874.326,"end":34891.622,"text":"但當中我還除了五千萬要付給廠商的還有另外一筆是我們要參加這個國際會議亞太地區國家人權機構論壇APF這個我們尊傑尊傑再尊傑至少也應當有三四百萬的支出吧"},{"start":34892.611,"end":34917.127,"text":"所以扣除其他的我就很坦白講我希望替你們全部爭取可是有困難嘛但是要付給廠商的就是五千萬然後這個國際會議我抓你三百五十萬好不好你們送的是本來七百多萬嘛算一半好了所以我是很懇切希望替監察院能夠爭取五千萬要付給廠商的再加上這個國際論壇三百五十萬能不能夠讓他們有五千三百五十萬的"},{"start":34922.226,"end":34936.383,"text":"的最佳預算能夠獲得啦750是哪一個國際會議都有了嗎沒有啊沒有啊不在這個啊沒有啊我替他們講的是700多裡頭他們現在就專節就是350要用的"},{"start":34942.12,"end":34957.178,"text":"那這個是就000的啦這是要付款給別人的啦所以這是非常合時的在就教育大家希望大家能夠支持好 吳水委員的意思是說該付人家的就是必須要付沒關係那個監察院副院長也來拜訪過關於國際監察會議這是一個難得辦的所以說也是"},{"start":34962.143,"end":34989.283,"text":"門面嘛 也是台灣的這個在世界各國的監察系統多交朋友是這個意思大概在750萬左右好 請黃國昌總召 請二度發言請那個副秘書長很辛苦啦臨為壽命接下這個位置剛剛你來溝通的時候我基本上也覺得"},{"start":34991.826,"end":35018.378,"text":"有展現出監察院副秘書長應該有的態度那只是有兩件事情我必須要鄭重的說明因為你今天在這邊做的話說的話有全程直播會在立法院公報裡面留下記錄所以一定要說清楚第一個陳忠彥接受性招待的案子那個不是監察院查出來的"},{"start":35019.52,"end":35043.379,"text":"那個是台灣民眾黨黨團的陳婉薇委員在國會裡面公開舉發的但舉發了以後交給監察院最後的結果是什麼彈劾不成立官官相互成這個樣子這個是人民為什麼看不下去嗎本來應該是監察院做的事情啊結果是在立法院裡面"},{"start":35044.505,"end":35073.406,"text":"由我們上一屆的委員陳晚輝委員所揭發出來送給監察院然後呢彈劾不成立敗壞關正到這種程度彈劾還不成立那要監察院幹嘛所以才會有這麼多人支持廢除監察院啊把監察院給廢了一點功能也沒有啊花那麼多納稅人的錢然後還要在外面請工人然後請一些"},{"start":35074.639,"end":35097.333,"text":"人來幫你們打掃清潔環境我可以很老實跟你們講納稅人的心情是這個機構根本沒有存在的必要完全沒有存在的必要那今天我們去年在審預算的時候我老實說人事費我們都沒有動因為那是法律義務之處"},{"start":35098.891,"end":35124.639,"text":"那是法律義務支出我們在審預算的時候法律規範的界限我們守得非常的清楚但是今年當行政院編出中央政府總預算的時候行政院已經清楚的告訴全體國人跟其他的憲政機關即使是法律義務支出行政院也可以不變"},{"start":35126.155,"end":35137.978,"text":"那如果連法律義務支出行政院也可以不編的話我們在處理明年的預算的時候本來法律義務支出的這一條所謂的紅線就不復存在了"},{"start":35138.857,"end":35165.503,"text":"因為連行政院自己都沒有要遵守這個法律義務支出的紅線是法律義務支出他也不編那代表的是我們在處理明年總預算的時候即使是法律義務支出我也可以刪除就不要再跟我說什麼法律義務支出因為法律義務支出的這個法律概念在我們目前編預算的行政院的官員裡面是蕩然無存蕩然無存"},{"start":35166.536,"end":35194.965,"text":"當然拉回來第一件事情我有必要把整個事情的經過把它還原清楚因為這畢竟是在國會裡面進行的程序那留下來都會成為官方的記錄但是剛剛副秘書長有說這個案子你們啟動複查意思就是彈劾的程序會繼續進行是嗎那個你按下麥克風跟我講事就好了"},{"start":35196.24,"end":35196.881,"text":"需要多久"},{"start":35218.54,"end":35241.454,"text":"跟委員說明監察院的調查案件有三種期限一般案件是三個月然後稍微重大的案件是六個月特殊重大案件是一年然後可以暫期兩次所以最多最多一個案件是一年我提醒一下監察院第一個是這個案子發生很久了"},{"start":35242.515,"end":35265.831,"text":"這也不是從零開始的調查啦相關的司法程序也都在進行客觀的事實大概也都認定了啦所以你如果說要用時間來講的話可能要重新思考一下這個是第一件事那第二件事情呢公務車的事情剛剛你也做了說明那你也願意在這邊承諾說九月的時候這件事情會處理是嗎"},{"start":35268.763,"end":35289.086,"text":"是嗎 好因為監察院針對我們所關心的事情表達了這樣子的善意表達了這樣子的善意那副秘書長也很懇切的來做了這樣子的說明那我請副秘書長要記得一件事你們承諾的事情要做到"},{"start":35289.887,"end":35318.21,"text":"我們可以被你們騙一次但絕對不會有第二次那因此針對監察院所需要的台灣民眾黨黨團的提案台灣民眾黨黨團撤案提案的台灣民眾黨黨團黃總召宣布撤案接下來請國民黨團副總召請發言對於監察院是否存廢的問題"},{"start":35320.239,"end":35346.305,"text":"在立法院已經討論很久當然副秘書長今天來做了很多的這樣的一個說明剛剛固然民眾黨黃總召有提到陳忠彥的案子還有公務車的案子但是在整個社會上來講"},{"start":35348.513,"end":35374.679,"text":"不是很簡單的這兩個案子而已舉凡所有各部會重大的弊案不管是能源局經濟部綠電光電各級政府包括發生了槍擊案也開了88槍"},{"start":35377.99,"end":35406.447,"text":"也有口罩的問題衛福部的問題發生了這麼多的事情不是只有區區的公務車區區的城中因為小雲在不在今天國家所有這麼多讓人民理心理得這麼多重大的弊案監察院在哪裡監察院在哪裡查出了哪一個案子"},{"start":35409.981,"end":35434.999,"text":"監察院只有公務車的問題嗎沒有綠道出資就不能當監察委員沒有當鷹犬就不能當監察委員這樣的院還有存在的必要嗎民進黨政府哪一個弊案監察院查得出來"},{"start":35439.778,"end":35460.343,"text":"今天在這裡本黨是尊重民眾黨民眾黨主導要廢除監察院民眾黨已經提出全數檢列所以國民黨沒有提案但是對民眾黨今天要撤案本席很不同意我們相當的不同意為什麼可以撤案"},{"start":35476.369,"end":35504.034,"text":"這九年來哪一件的弊案監察院有查出來對於分擔委員那些小事情都不足掛齒我們都不用在這裡講監察院的追殺從來沒有停過"},{"start":35511.708,"end":35533.193,"text":"誠如剛剛所說 本席在這裡發言國會要留存歷史紀錄所以我就是要留存這個歷史紀錄代表國民黨團我們雖然極度不同意"},{"start":35539.304,"end":35560.085,"text":"但是 此時此刻 我們代表尊重聽完黃國昌總召提案這個黨團說策案一股暖流上心頭那現在副總召一股寒流又上心頭不管anyway 我們副總召尊重提案黨團好不好"},{"start":35562.327,"end":35585.398,"text":"33案監察院原提案的黨團 台灣民眾黨團正式撤案好 謝謝監察院所有的官員列席 謝謝你們接下來我們進入到內政部主管第34案請到39案 我們並案討論請提案委員翁曉琳委員發表議題 請說明主席 我在這邊要談的就是有關於內政"},{"start":35587.881,"end":35612.987,"text":"有关于这个内政部主管的这个原列是28亿8143万7千元的追加预算的费用那我这里主张是全山那几个主要的理由就是因为他们这次追加的预算回编率高达95.35%而且他们追加的预算的部分就包含我们当时114年度决议要指定删减的项目"},{"start":35613.507,"end":35629.039,"text":"那麼所以在這個部分來講的話根本也不符合我們剛剛說的預算法79條第3款的因重大事故經費超過法定預算的這個構成要件那麼同時呢在這次他們迴編的預算呢基本上"},{"start":35630.16,"end":35658.101,"text":"绝大多数都是媒体宣传费那么如果我们同意他的追加这些媒体宣传费用加起来的话会比113年度的法定预算还要多很多所以总之就是说他们编回编的这些费用都是我们当时要求一定要删的费用那么他们现在全部重新编回来而且没有任何的急迫性也没有发生重大事故所以本席在这边认为说应该要全部予以删除"},{"start":35659.465,"end":35675.277,"text":"好 謝謝提案委員翁曉琳委員的發言接下來我們34案到39案之間國民黨團有提第35案然後國民黨團還有提第37案國民黨團還有提第39案請國民黨團一併說明台灣民眾黨團請準備好"},{"start":35691.572,"end":35714.777,"text":"我們現在就是有關於三十五、三十七、三十九基本上都是沒宣廢所以我們堅持全部予以刪除好 王宏威委員表達了意見台灣民眾黨團所提的第36案、第38案請表達意見"},{"start":35715.436,"end":35735.556,"text":"第一個36案比較單純就很簡單只有動20而已請他提書面報告兼同意10的動詞38案的部分這個是一樣去年剪裂的東西去年剪裂的東西又沒有什麼特殊的事由然後重新又再把它編回來根本是預算法與無誤"},{"start":35741.179,"end":35763.469,"text":"民進黨團要不要補充意見 還是內政部要先回答好 請內政部 劉部長 請表達意見 謝謝謝謝韓院長 謝謝各位黨團我想把這個從35案到39案的部分先跟國民黨黨團表達就是國民黨黨團所提到的檢列所有的沒宣費我們完全尊重 全部檢列沒有問題"},{"start":35764.409,"end":35789.941,"text":"那再來就是有關那個民眾黨黨團所提案的議政業務的部分寫凍結20%但是我想補充說明一點就是今天有這個賴氏堡委員的這個聯席會議裡面我們已經有把這個內政部的原列的這個部分總共減列的4億元那這4億元按照比例分配我們在議政業務裡面所減列的數目字比這個民眾黨黨團的凍結的20%還要來得多"},{"start":35794.083,"end":35817.898,"text":"所以我們也都同意也就是說今天白天的時候在八個聯席會議裡面所提到的這個簡列數的部分我們都完全同意都沒有問題那再來第38案的部分可能要再跟民眾黨黨團說明一下第一個就是這裡面有兩案就是我們在聯席會議裡面的提到刪除4000萬"},{"start":35819.439,"end":35824.681,"text":"的部分大致上就是全部都是媒體的宣傳費那我們也覺得說到年底之前媒體的宣傳費已經不再具有這個急迫性所以我們同意在今天白天聯席會的時候減列4000萬那同時原來凍結的4億元是原來我們的網路流量記錄器那根據我們剛剛開始委託的這個部分有提到如果我們這4億元可以加回來的話"},{"start":35848.709,"end":35872.517,"text":"那就可以把固網裡面跟網路流量紀錄器的一個計數標那同時可以開出去那如果沒有的話呢按照現在我們在一百一十四年通過的預算數的話大概只能處理行動網路的流量紀錄器那如果說這次還是表示凍結的話那我們在不管是一個月或兩個月內呢提我們的書面報告我們完全尊重民眾黨團的意見以上報告"},{"start":35874.961,"end":35889.253,"text":"好 劉部長好 邁示寶大委因為今天聯席會今天您當早晚 請說明這個謝謝院長 各位先進這個剛才劉部長提到的這個聯席會簡略它只有民政之處"},{"start":35890.478,"end":35910.664,"text":"只有民政支出減略4億所以其他的部分我們要尊重今天大家的一個協商的會議我對於這個翁委員提到要減略28億我可以尊重所以看大家討論怎麼樣所以這不是說4億就框在那裡所以只是針對民政支出一項而已其他我們並沒有去討論"},{"start":35912.424,"end":35934.629,"text":"就這樣 謝謝我綜合一下那個國民黨團還有台灣民眾黨團還有提案的翁曉琳委員以及內政部劉部長的大家之間的發言換言之就是內政部同意所有媒體宣傳費用全部都刪除那這個等下今後我們要算一下第二個就是"},{"start":35939.909,"end":35963.922,"text":"38案的刑事警察業務凍結就是在一個月到兩個月之內我們就會提出一個說明原來民眾黨黨團要求我們三個月但是按照我們現在的速度我們可以在一個月或兩個月內就可以提所以我們完全尊重沒有問題會提早把報告送過來因為他是屬於凍結的部分"},{"start":35964.963,"end":35977.552,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在請教台灣那個提案的翁曉琳委員如果內政部劉部長所說的這樣子把媒體宣傳會面全部的刪除那您廖委員要發言嗎好 請廖委員請"},{"start":35978.703,"end":35994.736,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想裡面國路署裡面有一個預算是當初14年度預算我主題案刪除的項目就是白袍湖社會住宅的它不是社會住宅的本體預算啦它是一個連外道路的一個改善工程那我想"},{"start":35995.296,"end":36016.354,"text":"一個區域立委會去動到地方的預算要不是規劃得太 認為有許多討論的空間區域立委原則上不可能來做這件事情因此我想在去年還沒審預算的時候就有跟內政部提出了我許多的疑議那包括在審預算的時候那當然就是提案把它刪除了那事後的院會 也在院會的討論中也請卓榮泰部長 請內政部來跟我溝通"},{"start":36021.078,"end":36037.183,"text":"後續這個案子要怎麼樣把它調整會是一個較適宜的一個方案但是到目前為止到時候都一直沒來我也發案給內政部但是內政部好像一直以來都沒有當作這一回事情所以說針對這一件事情我也想趁今天這個機會提出一個嚴正的抗議我好像感覺內政部對於一個委員相關包括在立法院行政院長提的一個承諾包括應該要跟地方委員做的一個溝通完全都沒有做到"},{"start":36050.527,"end":36055.275,"text":"我想也趁著今天這個機會請看是不是能夠請內政部長做一個回應這樣子"},{"start":36057.079,"end":36085.099,"text":"林部長 這個廖委員所提的您看我想是這樣子謝謝廖委員的指點第一個就是廖委員所說的白袍湖的社會住宅跟連外道路的部分是國土署跟新北市政府已經有共同要處理這個部分也就是要建社會住宅原來在立法院三讀通過的時候確實是被剪裂掉但是我們後來再把它回編回去是一億多"},{"start":36085.839,"end":36115.199,"text":"的部分所以列在我們這個第37項第暗號37項裡面的這個7億多也就是說呢我們今天在連這個這個這個第二項裡面的聯席會議裡面簡列工業支出及交通支出我們完全尊重聯席會議的立場但是那個廖委員所提到的白袍湖的這個部分的話呢是在原來所列的部分沒有被簡列掉1億多那這個部分大概就是我們所說的大致上都是屬於一般"},{"start":36116.319,"end":36145.42,"text":"簡單一點不要浪費大家時間啦不要浪費大家時間你院長 法部長你可不可以就承諾承諾針對這個個案來到我的辦公室跟我討論一下這個案子怎麼樣的規劃能夠更加的適宜你可不可以跟我承諾我上次是院長承諾你不聽沒有關係那沒關係那你現在可不可以承諾你到我的辦公室好好討論這個案子我們國土署的同仁有先到沒有完全沒有完全沒有人來好不好承諾那我這個案子我就不發言了"},{"start":36145.799,"end":36173.528,"text":"那是不是可以請署長跟您再報告一下這部分也感謝委員啦因為之前我們有去討論過的部分啦那我們這個部分後面還會再到委員辦公室這邊再繼續討論把它討論得更完整包含這一案還有寶藏坑那邊都會一起做個討論好 那個廖委員這樣子算國土署會再來過來跟你溝通好嗎好 謝謝 請黃國昌委員請發言這件事情喔 我要幫先想講幾句話"},{"start":36175.871,"end":36202.194,"text":"去年在處理這個案子的時候地方上面有很多聲音仙翔是代表當地的選民提出了疑慮院長請內政部跟廖委員說明顯然院長講的話內政部也沒有在聽院長是好意要促進溝通但今天仙翔其實仍很客氣"},{"start":36204.608,"end":36219.492,"text":"他完全沒有發脾氣啊他只是覺得很無奈你都已經這樣講啦但我們內政部的各個官位都很大叫你們來說明也不來說明但錢我就是要我們打開天窗說亮話不就是這個樣子嗎內政部的每一個官位都很大院長都已經這樣說了"},{"start":36233.376,"end":36239.892,"text":"然後直接把廖委員當空氣這是行政部門該有的態度嗎"},{"start":36249.478,"end":36271.527,"text":"翁曉琳委員剛才關於內政部的答覆那您看我這邊要再強調的就是剛剛部長那邊講的幾個計畫基本上因為沒有看到他們實際的執行率而且其實現在只剩下四個只剩下到年底三四個月了那麼事實上就是有些東西他們根本也還沒有做完而且甚至"},{"start":36272.82,"end":36288.693,"text":"現在在座也來不及說實在話那麼這是他們追加的預算其實已經是如果我們再同意的話就比他們113年度的都還要高出非常多我不覺得說內政部在這段時間裡面有什麼好的表現"},{"start":36289.878,"end":36310.238,"text":"对这些部分是本来就应该要删除更何况内政部其实在我们的部会里面他们拿的预算案是非常非常高的排名这个数一数二的前面几名所以呢我在这边我还是坚持认为说是其实真的不应该同意他们的这个同意他们的追加预算"},{"start":36311.119,"end":36329.182,"text":"當然就如果說是勉強說是在聯席會議上面有講到說是可以檢列民政支出的4億元等等的話可能就少部分的同意給他們這個同意給他們檢列那其餘的話我是建議都必須要刪掉就是不同意他們的追加預算"},{"start":36330.435,"end":36358.865,"text":"我們要不要把數字 劉部長所報告的數等一下我先唸一遍給大家讓各位黨團幹部來還有提案委員來參考一下好不好那我們接下來請吳思堯委員請發言謝謝主席因為現在變成剛剛經過民眾黨每一個案子的說明然後還有市方部長每一案的回覆也都尊重民眾黨的提案包括幾個刪減都尊重以及兩個凍結案也都尊重"},{"start":36359.685,"end":36387.479,"text":"那再来就是针对先祥委员的一些垂询我想部长也表达了后续怎么样来跟区域的委员做更好的沟通所以说这里要处理的就是一个非常巨大的删减数字的差距要怎么来协调因为我要请这个温委员因为刚刚我们每一个案基本上有具体提案内容的部里头大概都尊重了"},{"start":36388.123,"end":36396.16,"text":"所以這邊的總數都可以來加一加但如果說溫委員都還是因為您這裡一大筆就是28億"},{"start":36398.946,"end":36425.597,"text":"這個恐怕這個落差非常大這是落差非常大那我個人是認為如同剛剛像民眾黨的委員他的每個案子有比較具體的一個聚焦的項目以及執行不妥的部分這個就比較好來說明跟回應但如果是一個general的一個28億全山這個真的是有其困難啦"},{"start":36426.747,"end":36431.274,"text":"所以請院長智慧的處理因為我說這個存在巨大的落差"},{"start":36433.57,"end":36456.372,"text":"所以剛剛算一算能夠刪的大概算一算是不是就照剛剛這個部分來處理我們是主張這樣對 田安委員 翁小婷委員跟內政部劉部長之間講的落差很大所以我嘗試的把劉部長數字把它算一下 算出來那算出來之後如果翁小婷委員堅持下去我再怎麼算沒有用啊所以翁委員就是說你現在就堅持這個翁委員請你看我眼睛 是不是如此"},{"start":36458.17,"end":36480.53,"text":"應該是這麼說我也沒有說那麼的堅持一定28億但是我認為說是合理的還勉強還可以同意他們最佳預算但是呢其實28億這個金額太高了我們剛剛看到如果說是以他這個名稱支出認為說是必要的話有這個四五億那我覺得這個勉強可以留對那但是其他的部分的話是真的是不適合"},{"start":36482.421,"end":36511.103,"text":"那個這樣好不好劉部長麻煩您把您剛才所講的幾個劉部長您把那幾個數字加上來之後我們來跟黨團來溝通好嗎因為這個數字我們也在算您那邊可能比較清楚一點可以 我們馬上可以提供但是我要跟翁小玲委員再補充說明一下我們現在的部分大致上在國土署裡面幾乎都是編給地方政府的補助款我剛有提到生活圈道路還有剛廖委員的這個白袍湖的部分"},{"start":36511.543,"end":36533.953,"text":"他的就是一億那那個生活圈道路跟人行道安全所以國土署呢原來國土署的工業支出跟六千萬的部分在今天聯席會議全部刪掉我們是同意但是其他的部分幾乎都是給地方政府的這個我們可以把你們要給地方政府你們之前就要給啦透過追加預算再來給太沒誠意了吧不是因為是被刪掉"},{"start":36535.842,"end":36554.152,"text":"委員會已經刪了5億你把它刪掉啦你剛都說他們追加預算嘛所以是你們把它刪掉啦地方政府的補助款你們又不給對不對 這些事情他們也可以做啊地方補助款剛剛已經處理了協商都簽了那個劉部長您大概算一下這個數字我們現在休息5分鐘沒有問題我們來溝通好嗎 好好休息我們算了大概5.18億吧就3減5.18億"},{"start":37318.223,"end":37322.685,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨壇幹部請坐 各位列席官員請坐我們現在繼續開會拜託會長保持肅靜"},{"start":37335.478,"end":37351.25,"text":"我們剛才休息之後經過了溝通現在請翁曉琳委員來說明溝通的結果請大家稍微仔細請聽一下請報告主席以及各位委員剛剛跟內政部的劉部長這邊的討論那麼簡單來說就是內政部的主管的這個經費我們這裡呢是等於說給他們17億啦"},{"start":37362.239,"end":37365.663,"text":"就是減列11億8143萬7千元保留17億對保留17億那在這17億裡面的這個主要項目就是從35 36 37 38 39這裡然後就按照我們在各個減列數這邊"},{"start":37387.392,"end":37395.359,"text":"來來來來來讓他們對包括在這裡面對自己調整科目事情調整謝謝謝謝聯席會是不是包括在裡面"},{"start":37397.19,"end":37412.242,"text":"聯席會有包含在裡面了獨立的台灣民眾黨團 凍結20%內政不是完全沒有意見的也遵照辦理然後將來再提出報告之後我們再統治第36案 兩個案 對是不是 還有一個38案"},{"start":37415.644,"end":37426.51,"text":"照案通過 好不好 好 那個黃國昌委員沒有意見了好 謝謝 我們第34案到39案經過溝通 我們保留17億減列11億8143萬7千元各位黨團幹部有沒有意見 沒有意見 好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請外交部"},{"start":37445.632,"end":37464.037,"text":"是已經宣告外交部好外交部40到44案我們現在翁曉琳所提檢列211千請翁曉琳請說明是那麼這次審查外交部的主管的這些"},{"start":37465.438,"end":37493.233,"text":"那麼事實上我本來也是認為說有些項目真的是不適合編列然後所以就提議提案然後說全部都簡列那麼但是經過跟外交部討論之後那麼事實上他們確實有一些部分是因為這個行政辦法的變更所以至於增加一些費用包括就是外交部的駐外的同仁他們的健保費在過去基本上是就是他們出國但是可以停保"},{"start":37493.873,"end":37522.049,"text":"所以他们不需要去给付这些健保费但是现在从去年的年底规定改了之后变成他们虽然住外可是他们还是要继续负担健保费那么这个部分事实上行政院在今年3月的时候已经同意就是由政府来全额补助应供住国外的人员包含眷属他们在住外期间的健保自行负担费用所以就这个部分的健保补助大概就是2亿1800万元"},{"start":37523.41,"end":37546.927,"text":"那我認為說跟我來解釋之後我覺得其實這個部分是因為就相關的法令的變動然後所增加的支出這部分是可以同意的那還有就是有關於就是內外輪調的這些計劃他們本來有一些駐外的人力那現在這個機票各方面的都費用都大幅的增加所以他們"},{"start":37548.688,"end":37568.532,"text":"也追加了就是有5億對不起有5549萬這樣的費用所以這筆的話基本上也是可以同意的然後還有一個部分就是有關於在雪梨的辦事處的管轍的構置計劃因為他們之前有編列7億7300"},{"start":37572.874,"end":37598.507,"text":"7億7373萬8千元但是後來在購物的時候發現這預算被凍結所以至於他們這個房子就還差幾千萬沒有辦法買成就差了5千多萬所以就這個部分來說的話那麼也同意他們可以追加那麼總之就是說經過我們剛剛討論之後給外交部的預算我們在這裡是"},{"start":37600.951,"end":37606.057,"text":"建議就是可以核給他們15.5億元三除15.5億元含機密預算的部分"},{"start":37618.936,"end":37643.267,"text":"然後科目自行調整然後另外有關於國際媒宣費的部分因為他們明天還要提報相關的資料所以這個部分就依明天的通案結果再來實際的調整那是採外加的方式是採外加的方式然後科目自行調整好 謝謝翁小林委員的說明提案委員翁小林委員意思說外交部主管這邊就檢列15.5億元對 然後含機密預算"},{"start":37649.093,"end":37676.292,"text":"好台灣民眾黨團所提的第43案 第44案沒有 那個翁委員剛剛已經跟外交部這邊已經做了比較詳細的核對所以我們就同意台灣民眾黨43跟44案併入剛剛翁委員的提案當中"},{"start":37685.436,"end":37689.238,"text":"不是啊 剛剛分兩個部分嘛剛剛你們跟我講好了是什麼是這一幕嗎報告委員我來說明一下是44案嗎43案 並40案 翁委員的案是那44案44案你們還是會提報告來嗎是是是 我們就遵照辦理OK 好"},{"start":37722.564,"end":37739.158,"text":"43案併翁小雨林委員的案子44案他們就遵照辦理報告院長另外42案也建請併翁委員的案子處理42案41案因為涉及到梅軒建請併梅軒通案處理"},{"start":37746.428,"end":37771.272,"text":"就包括在15億5000萬裡面嘛 對不對對 等到明天我們提供資料以後再來議案調整單獨另外處理 是那因為42案跟翁委員有重複所以併40案那國民黨團跟民進黨團這邊要跟大家一起交換一下意見就是說翁委員所提出來的台灣民眾黨團也支持就是第40案3減15億5000萬"},{"start":37775.976,"end":37777.777,"text":"15億5000萬 含機密預算15億5000萬含機密預算"},{"start":37802.901,"end":37830.221,"text":"這部 吳次長請表達意見沒有 就這樣 照這樣做 謝謝那我們就照那個 院長 請以後像這樣 就謝謝你讓這個提案委員也跟部會已經協調好了那協調好以後各黨團沒有意見就好那大包小那個都是他們自行去調整就可以了不然凍結都一樣 好不好那我們就減列15億5000萬"},{"start":37832.059,"end":37852.284,"text":"第四十案到四十四案四十案跟四十三案並四十案對 四二四三並四十案"},{"start":37854.614,"end":37881.367,"text":"44 照案通過好 謝謝謝謝院長 謝謝國民黨團謝謝民眾黨團也謝謝民進黨團非常感謝你們 謝謝我們接下來請國防部 謝謝外交部好 謝謝 請回我們請國防部國防部45到4445案國民黨團所提檢列500案請問國防部有沒有意見我同意好 同意第45案檢列500案"},{"start":37883.956,"end":37893.604,"text":"我們暫通過第46案馬文君委員等簡列327萬5千元國防政策規劃請問國防部有沒有意見"},{"start":37895.185,"end":37918.591,"text":"跟院長報告就是46案到54案都是馬文君委員等人提案那這個部分我們就協商完之後那麼我們就總的來一起討論這樣子也許這個因為馬文君委員會在"},{"start":37921.563,"end":37944.705,"text":"這個就是說你希望等一下一起來討論就對了就是46案到54案就國防部的部分徐小新委員請發言是這樣子的因為跟國防部討論之後這個提案理由本來就是因為當初的統山裡面可能含了一般的業務費或是差旅費"},{"start":37945.566,"end":37956.955,"text":"那所以經過跟國防部這裡協商之後考量到國防部的需求所以我們針對提案委員這個馬文君委員我們剛剛因為他先離開了我已經跟他討論過就是說464850525354全部同意追加"},{"start":37962.699,"end":37981.966,"text":"那呢 希望 因為不希望再有這個造謠的狀態發生因為今天下午呢 我必須要譴責一下這個民進黨林楚瑩委員因為明明今天下午只是在協商而已那結果呢 她就在她自己的這個平台上面呢就公然的造謠馬文君委員刪除了1.77億"},{"start":37983.687,"end":37986.749,"text":"但問題是我們還沒有協商到最後我們其實這個預算都還能夠正在跟國防部去做討論那怎麼會做出這樣子的一個說法我覺得第一個我要在此譴責那第二個希望院長這裡可以讓我們464850525354我們已經跟國防部這裡達成這個意見就是全數同意追加"},{"start":38007.105,"end":38032.169,"text":"但是為了不要再有這種造謠的事情發生那我們唯一的一個條件是希望可以把這幾個項目的科目名稱唸書以後並且清楚的說明這個六個案子一共有多少金額已經同意追加避免再有人繼續在網路上面造謠跟抹黑 以上好 徐小新委員表達意見完請問其他的黨團委員沒有寶貴意見要說明一下"},{"start":38034.318,"end":38037.344,"text":"那部長請說明那麼按照"},{"start":38039.472,"end":38065.481,"text":"協商的結果呢就是說四十六案的國防政策規劃與督導產業合作匯報等經費那麼我們原列三百二十七萬五千元那這個同意就以追加不予減劣那麼再來是四十八案軍事行政辦理部隊四島維穩等經費追加五百八十一萬那麼也同意全數追加不予減劣"},{"start":38066.877,"end":38081.056,"text":"再來50案教育訓練業務辦理戰備整備督考等經費追加504萬2千元那這也同意不予簡列那麼51"},{"start":38083.181,"end":38109.895,"text":"五十二 五十二案後勤及通知業務辦理通知督考等經費呢追加一千三百九十八萬七千元也同意不予檢列第五十三案一般裝備辦理各式武器裝備採購旅遊渡島等經費追加七百零六萬八千元也同意不予檢列五十四案一般裝備辦理軍事投資建案獎金等經費一百九十三萬一千元也同意不予檢列"},{"start":38110.976,"end":38135.678,"text":"以上總計是三千七百一十一萬三千元那就這全數就都同意追加不予檢列第四十九案部長沒有四十九案的部分四十七案四十七案是另外的四十七案同意議題案辦理檢列三千萬"},{"start":38137.386,"end":38147.477,"text":"47萬我們這邊還需要再做說明跟討論國安部同意檢列3000萬我們同意提案辦理照案通過第49案49案就同意檢列1267萬"},{"start":38155.191,"end":38178.947,"text":"其實這個是跟梅軒其實剛剛的通案其實是一樣的要按通案來辦理不過我們也有協調所以同意減列不論明天的通案的處理結果如何我們這邊先減列1267萬好的 副部長的意思就是第49案我們是減1957"},{"start":38181.389,"end":38186.192,"text":"但現在減少 同意1267現在是只減裂1267萬現在就同意1267這一點我要請問一下徐團委你請把答案一點這邊也要說明一下替提案委員說明一下因為我們在這個113年開始這個節目它不只是說什麼認知作戰的節目它是一個舉光原地的節目從108年開始就有"},{"start":38209.645,"end":38216.347,"text":"那113年呢六年來都是標給三例一共是八級一年然後1800萬平均一級是225萬大約我們1.5個月會做一級那114年也就是今年是標給民視那只做五級970萬平均一級是194萬"},{"start":38227.651,"end":38250.206,"text":"那就算今年再做八集也是只多582萬而已現在要多追加1957萬而且剩下是四個月那你追加這麼多1.5個月做一集大概也只能做兩集也就是388萬所以按照邏輯本來大概要刪掉大概這個簡列1500多萬但是呢在後面的討論之下呢我們覺得刪除1257萬留700萬"},{"start":38257.192,"end":38266.841,"text":"1267万那再提供剩下提供给这个国防部自由的去运用好这个是我们可以同意的部分剪裂1267万剪裂1267剪裂是1267剩下690万7"},{"start":38281.033,"end":38285.714,"text":"最佳690萬7千元就是我們追加1957萬7千元那現在減列1267萬元之後同意追加690萬7千元那現在顧部長講得非常清楚徐橋英委員表達也非常清楚我們可以同意"},{"start":38310.44,"end":38316.672,"text":"那另外就是51案同意減列4千萬元好的"},{"start":38318.234,"end":38341.644,"text":"教育委員要補充說明文件這個部分是在教育的所謂的訓練經費第一個我們這邊還想要請教就是說目前大概花用了多少因為現在是要追加最後的四個月考量到就是說我們會跟過去一年做比較諮詢率的部分所以想要先請問一下就是國防部這邊目前針對現在我們編的3.8億目前花用了多少"},{"start":38347.626,"end":38350.269,"text":"我們這邊到8月27號為止訓練的綜合作業費是執行率是87.8%"},{"start":38357.765,"end":38385.667,"text":"OK87.8嘛所以其實好那所以呢因為我們今年編因為去年編列4億結果只用到3.3億那剩下7000萬並沒有用完而且他可以留用對不對沒關係先等我一下今年編3.8億所以剩下4個月本來會覺得說那我們用3.3億已經足夠但是剛才部長有提到說目前已經有87.8%的部分能夠已經用完了嘛對不對是"},{"start":38386.508,"end":38407.005,"text":"所以原本是我們希望是去減列就減列5000億那在 對不起減列5000萬那在這裡呢那我們同意就是減列再餘以讓你們追加1000萬所以是不是可以同意就是說呢這個追加的部分就是4000減列4000減列4000追加5"},{"start":38409.667,"end":38424.304,"text":"五千零六十三萬五千元對 這可以嗎 四千好不好好 沒有問題已經說了 剪裂四千剪裂四千 所以同意追加五千零六十三萬五千元好的 好 謝謝"},{"start":38425.245,"end":38444.701,"text":"其他黨團有沒有沒有意見 如果沒有意見我們就照剛才所報告的數字我們與通過好不好好 謝謝院長 謝謝各位委員接下來我們進到財政部第十款台灣民眾黨團這個台灣民眾黨團簡列1169萬台灣民眾黨請說明"},{"start":38452.499,"end":38477.896,"text":"這個是可能前面通案的時候沒宣費全砍了嘛 對不對這是保 這個是保留那如果保留的話 那這個就保留啊就並通案保留 請問財政部莊部長有沒有寶貴意見是 我們遵照辦理就是遵照黨團他們的決定意見好的 好"},{"start":38480.43,"end":38504.899,"text":"那接下來我們就病案保留了接下來第57案第56案第56案的部分台灣民眾黨團所提的檢列50%請部長表達意見好嗎我先說明一下56案的部分我們希望就是能夠科目讓我們自行調整那裡面的三檢數能夠讓我們包含梅宣的部分以及通山的部分"},{"start":38507.193,"end":38526.927,"text":"沒有辦法同意啊沒有辦法同意啊你直接包在煤圈裡面那這個案子不就蒸發掉沒有我想說明一下這裡面302萬2千裡面有36萬7千是屬於煤圈費用我的意思就是說36萬7千就包在那個煤圈裡面就這樣子"},{"start":38527.898,"end":38549.665,"text":"有36萬7千塊包在煤圈黃總召請表達意見所以如果36萬包在煤圈這個案子你就同意對不對是啊 然後科目讓我們自行調整可以啊 那你們把那個要修正的文字把它改一改 送來就是三列就是我們左邊看 右邊看到簡列151萬1千元這裡面包含了36萬7千這樣子"},{"start":38555.741,"end":38583.292,"text":"對嘛 所以就把數字寫出來要不然不是很混亂嗎我口頭宣告好了這很簡單第56項財政部的這個檢列百分之五十一百五十一萬一千元含梅宣三十六萬七千第二剩下科目指引調整就這樣了嘛 口頭宣告就好了沒問題 好 我們就通過我們再往下五十七案負稅署我們台灣民眾黨團體百分之五十請部長表達一點"},{"start":38584.773,"end":38588.436,"text":"是謝謝57案的部分我們原列數是1143萬1000元那這裡面有1025萬1000元是沒宣費用所以我們是不是可以讓我們減掉沒宣費用後剩下的118萬讓我們留給我們運用可以"},{"start":38606.5,"end":38611.485,"text":"也就是我再說一遍我們原列數1143萬1000元那這裡面呢有1025萬1000元是屬於沒宣費用那所以扣掉這個1025.1以後剩下118萬的部分給我們付稅 留給我們付稅署做真的一般的需要的運用"},{"start":38630.373,"end":38658.812,"text":"就是三減一零二五萬同意三減一零二五萬同意三減一零二五萬部長沒有問題啊你講 我沒有聽錯嘛你同意三減一千零二十五萬對 那是梅軒的費用我們同意三除對 梅軒費用三除嘛剩下一百一十八萬給我們付稅數來留用嘛好 黃董事長請發言同意好 謝謝其他黨人沒有意見好 我們第五十七案"},{"start":38659.292,"end":38674.481,"text":"那科目也可以我們自己調整對 我們就刪除1025萬每一宣費用剩下118萬那我們就請負稅署自行調整其他黨黨沒有意見好 謝謝財政部列席謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員我們就要請教育部"},{"start":38692.253,"end":38721.29,"text":"好 謝謝鄭部長各位教育部官員辛苦了已經現在晚上11點15了 辛苦辛苦院長還有各位委員 大家晚安好 謝謝那我們現在教育部主管了5117萬9千減列3320萬國民黨團所提案的國民黨團要說明嗎還是我們等一下請教育部同意說明之後你們再有問題再提出來好 那第二個59案 60案台灣民眾黨團所提出來要說明嗎還是等教育部說明之後"},{"start":38723.561,"end":38749.93,"text":"好 我們請教育部請表達意見 謝謝謝謝委員 我想因為我們在這個聯席會議裡面有簡列兩千萬是不是能夠懇請委員 院長能夠支持是不是以這個來同意這個簡列兩千萬然後其他我們這一個項目由我們自行來調配 以上這個就是曾部長的意思就是直接就簡列兩千萬 也就是剩下"},{"start":38751.365,"end":38779.228,"text":"三千一百七万九千元剩下他们科目进行调整请问各党团有没有意见有意见请王副委员因为我们这边是有关是煤炫费那所以就是就煤炫费煤炫费就是全部删除不是啊煤炫煤炫费要全部删除"},{"start":38780.73,"end":38802.899,"text":"那如果這樣就要包含委員會 結席委員會 那就超過了沒有沒有 是說如果說把沒宣費都刪掉就是包括那個委員會的兩千啦那您現在 部長您現在估計沒宣費再加這個兩千是總共數十組不是加 把兩千就是兩千是在這個3112裡面啦 三三二零裡面啦"},{"start":38803.724,"end":38812.518,"text":"現在就是 王宏偉委員的意思就是說 媒宣會要併在這2000把它包含起來 一定要全部刪除嘛那部長這邊可不可以把這個結構簡單讓我們黨團 大家瞭解一下"},{"start":38815.112,"end":38841.422,"text":"數字結構感謝委員但是我還是會希望說是不是能夠如果3000然後其他我們來調整就是說基本上就接近這個所有的沒有 各部會都這樣為什麼你要特別主席啊那如果這樣那我們就尊重委員的決議那個部長啊你是主管教育的你做了一個晚上你要知道教育要怎麼做做完後來聽課也聽那麼久也知道了"},{"start":38842.537,"end":38864.667,"text":"在教育部就不要凹好不好所有媒宣各部會都砍都是全數刪除好不好你不要這樣子因為主席也很累了這樣突然議委要減五千多謝謝委員我們尊重你聯席會刪的部分刪的部分我們就把它撤掉總共只刪了就是那個媒宣的部分把它刪掉就這樣子"},{"start":38871.368,"end":38885.124,"text":"那因為就不得說三兩千萬那王國文委員一直堅持要包括美圈現在沒有 我就講兩千已經沒有了現在就是三美圈三千多刪掉嘛"},{"start":38886.872,"end":38903.546,"text":"瞭解 政部長這意思就是說這個5117萬裡面每一宣布的3320萬2000元國民黨團就堅持要刪除您現在剛才是說您可以接受連續2000萬就不在裡面了就已經不再處理了就2000沒有問題啦好不好其他黨團有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":38907.91,"end":38923.809,"text":"那這樣就是 其實那要調整一下是同時遵照國民黨團及民眾黨團啦兩黨提的都是全數刪除啦因為剛剛沒有提到民眾黨團好 那就也包括台灣民眾黨團所提的我們免宣費用3320萬2000元刪除"},{"start":38928.294,"end":38955.202,"text":"那台灣民眾黨團員有沒有意見沒有啊 因為就已經按照我們提案全部刪除啦好我們58案 59案 60案凍結那我們 60案是不是就照案通過60案是不是可以不要凍結啦那黃總召教育部的意思說能不能跟您說明一下就可以不要凍結 請表達意見"},{"start":38957.17,"end":38975.445,"text":"不是啊 你們現在編回來的全部都是去年被刪的啊然後我接下來也只有凍結而已啊其實對你們已經非常好咧啊你把去年刪掉了再補回來啊我只動25%其實真的對教育部非常好了啦好那我們58 59案我們就刪3,320萬這個維持我們這個文宣費刪除"},{"start":38985.566,"end":39011.259,"text":"那第60案呢 就凍結25% 照案通過好不好 部長謝謝您謝謝主席好 晚安 謝謝喔 很晚了 真的晚上11點20分 謝謝接下來我們請法務部好 法務部 鄭部長 各位官員辛苦了主席 各位委員好好 謝謝我們現在國民黨團所提簡列468萬7千元的沒宣費"},{"start":39014.827,"end":39036.233,"text":"那台灣民眾黨團體檢列900萬元 鄭部長請表達意見這個這個下午的那個聯席會已經檢列2000了是不是說並那個委員會3200萬那科目自行調整那個部長下午是法務部主管的3200這個是還有包括61到66"},{"start":39044.885,"end":39068.441,"text":"61到66部長 我們就61案到66案我們就一併來討論 好吧 好那您的意思就是同一年一會三年兩簽 三年兩簽還沒有進行調整委員會已經 對 三年兩簽好 請各黨團表達意見 鄭部長那個 這樣子啊 請副總部長 是"},{"start":39074.06,"end":39096.222,"text":"兩千萬你基本上尊重嘛 對不對就大包小在兩千萬裡面 必須煤圈通通要放進去你不要再做一些 你們自己要打詐的不要自己又成詐騙集團 好不好國民黨的意思就是說 這刪除兩千萬必須包括煤圈費 毫不接受台灣民眾黨團有意見嗎"},{"start":39098.786,"end":39103.712,"text":"那個要包沒宣費我沒意見但是62案要獨立處理62還66那是再加上去喔62案要獨立處理"},{"start":39115.362,"end":39132.977,"text":"哇 那就是兩千再加九百你現在就變成兩千再加九百耶兩千再加九百就三兩千九耶等一下啦讓我們法務部再講一下那一筆是什麼那一筆法務行政這筆是法務行政最主要是不是有那個"},{"start":39133.638,"end":39142.682,"text":"有一個調解費需要給調解委員的300萬是調解委員會那個因為我們獎勵金那是367個鄉鎮區都有設調解委員會那我們會有GEO的這些調解委員會我們必須要給他獎勵金因為這些調解委員其實貢獻很大我們是不是說那不然是不是檢列就把這部扣掉檢列500是不是檢列500"},{"start":39163.157,"end":39176.974,"text":"他是鄉鎮條件委員我這樣說好了齁這件事情剛剛王國威委員有跟我講那王委員的意見我也都尊重"},{"start":39178.513,"end":39207.532,"text":"那多少錢 把它寫下去是那你們現在鄉鎮市的獎勵金到底要多少錢是 300 300那所以我本來扣900嘛 對不對那這樣就扣600 我留300萬給他發鄉鎮市的獎勵金啊那科目是不是自行調整可以啊 好 謝謝好 那我們第62案我們簡列600萬科目自行調整好不好 好"},{"start":39209.349,"end":39220.735,"text":"那其他各位黨團都沒有意見了好 我們謝謝法務部以及各位列席法務部的官員謝謝非常晚了現在11點25分了我們接下來請經濟部67案到71案國民黨團體凍結67案30%"},{"start":39237.475,"end":39245.058,"text":"台灣民眾黨團是主決議第七十案 國民黨團檢列50%第七十一案 國民黨團提議凍結30%請經濟部表達意見"},{"start":39254.443,"end":39283.041,"text":"是主席各位委員第七十一案我們希望我們尊重委員提案凍結百分之三十但是我們希望略做文字的調整我們建議刪除第五行加以深水池興建第二期工程爆發弊案這幾個字另外呢經濟部建議最後的書面專案報告改成書面報告由"},{"start":39285.238,"end":39313.203,"text":"這個向立法院相關委員會提出書面報告後 使得動之 以上報告您現在講的是六十七案 還是七十一案 七十一案 七十一六十七案 我報告六十七案委員會已經同意改成主決議我們六十七案改主決議 六十八案也是"},{"start":39315.099,"end":39319.244,"text":"68遵照辦理69案改組決議70案檢列50%遵照辦理71案凍結30%文字做修正我剛剛報告的那請問提案的國民黨團員有沒有意見請表達"},{"start":39333.359,"end":39336.381,"text":"換句話說專案報告要堅持不能改成書面報告就是王委員的意思就是如此"},{"start":39363.479,"end":39389.43,"text":"那次長我們可不可以說明那個弊案的部分不能刪掉副董事長請說明就是剛剛本黨書記長所提出的是文字不予修正這第二而且要提專案報告就照原來文字"},{"start":39391.014,"end":39392.1,"text":"都沒變 那次長請說明"},{"start":39395,"end":39422.469,"text":"我是不是跟主席跟委員報告一下那個是這樣子它這個生水池是之前有一個就是說它那個防火的材料跟那個就是說它的那個有沒有造土施工這個部分這個部分我們大概都有送那個防火實驗室就是合格防火實驗室就是成大去檢測也OK然後現場的那個配置的部分我們有請第三者去確認說這個是OK的部分再跟委員報告一下另外這個生水池因為它剛蓋好"},{"start":39423.829,"end":39442.975,"text":"他主要是訓練一些年輕人比如說要籌資這些海事工作他必須要一些專業訓練那還有一些研究機構比如說像成大跟海大他有些設備必須要放到這個深水域做測試所以他有這個錢其實是拿來做他的維持費使用的那跟委員補充報告"},{"start":39443.675,"end":39454.689,"text":"可是這個問題應該你們是可以接受的因為他不是暫時他就凍結另外你就提出專案報告因為王滙委員他現在代表國民黨他們現在堅持這樣您能不能接受"},{"start":39457.369,"end":39484.687,"text":"那個報告我們OK啦但是我們說說可是我們就會把它用書面報告的方式報到專案報告我上面就寫專案報告怎麼變成你用書面報告好那我們就用專案報告應該這是可以接受的對不對市長您覺得是好我經濟部接受好那我們就照原案通過好嗎好經濟部也能夠接受那就謝謝經濟部市長各位列席的官員大家辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":39486.757,"end":39489.521,"text":"我們接下來第14款交通部"},{"start":39493.196,"end":39519.964,"text":"交通部我們台灣民眾黨團所提出來簡列918萬1千的沒宣費請問交通部陳部長辛苦了 11點半了好 請表達意見 謝謝感謝院長跟各位黨團的委員這個部分我們就遵照辦理不過要提一下就是我們下午在聯席會議的時候已經有簡列107萬這個部分可能要包含107萬的這個沒宣費用"},{"start":39522.951,"end":39545.063,"text":"部長你簡列是354萬欸裡面有107萬是沒宣對 裡面有107萬是沒宣107萬是沒宣所以這個部分要包含那個107萬的沒宣費用好 現在陳部長的意思非常清楚同意接受台灣民眾黨團所提的這918萬但是包括今天下午聯席審查會的這個107萬也是沒宣費台灣民眾黨團請表達意見"},{"start":39549.864,"end":39565.612,"text":"沒有問題啦 72案交通部都接受了範圍重疊當然就包括在裡面嘛好 那我們就謝謝陳部長謝謝交通部 造案通過那也謝謝陳部長跟所有交通部的官員接下來我們請勞動部我們國民黨團所提議檢列6894萬的50%請勞動部洪部長"},{"start":39578.149,"end":39605.632,"text":"黃部長來來來 黃部長請 請表達意見來好 那這個我們是在第73案齁那其實今天下 73個案 王副委員的提案是希望把我們這個整個的六八九四萬希望這個要減列百分之五十那因為今天下午在聯席會的時候勞動部就已經有同意減列三千五百萬"},{"start":39607.103,"end":39633.801,"text":"這是在下午聯席會的時候有同意減列三千五百萬那現在王永遠的提案其實減列50%是減列三千四百四十七案所以我們其實在聯席會已經同意減列三千五了洪部長講得非常清楚好 可以 我們就尊重聯席會的決議那我們就尊重聯席會我們也就減列三千五百萬七十三案測案然後不處理 然後"},{"start":39636.056,"end":39645.256,"text":"我們以聯席會3.3千5百萬好不好 我們同意謝謝洪部長 辛苦你們了接下來第74案"},{"start":39646.584,"end":39671.412,"text":"台灣民眾黨團所提檢列228萬9千元請洪部長表達意見好這個案子在我們的關係師的業務裡面那其實他的業務主要是用在工會的勞教大概有100萬是用在工會的勞教另外的錢是用在模範勞工相關的活動上面"},{"start":39672.452,"end":39691.778,"text":"所以我們還是很希望能夠爭取這一筆因為在前半年這個關於工會的勞教有些工會就來跟我們反映說為什麼比往年給的補助來得少所以我們很希望能夠爭取這一筆經費至少我們希望能夠爭取一百萬因為這是給工會勞教的補助"},{"start":39695.158,"end":39700.262,"text":"就是比往年來的少那工會已經跟我們在抱怨了這個案子的原文要講清楚喔去年在處理有關勞動部的預算的時候台灣民眾黨有提案3在這整個過程當中"},{"start":39725.258,"end":39750.543,"text":"等到要院會表決的時候我過去在勞動部其實在勞委會的時代我那時候跟一群很可愛的勞委會的同仁幫忙寫了非常多的法案所以我認識勞動部裡面非常多的人到最後一秒鐘的時候才打電話來希望我把那個檢列的數額降低然後我完全100%"},{"start":39752.591,"end":39772.914,"text":"就依照你們開口檢列的數額就減了所以我現在有點搞不懂當初我的案子完全依照你們的請求百分之一百按照你們的請求改了那個金額然後結果你現在來跟我說不夠我完全聽不懂當初我那個提案單"},{"start":39774.983,"end":39794.045,"text":"我親手改的數字我還傳回去給他看他跟我說OK 謝謝然後現在跟我說不夠我完全沒有辦法理解到底發生什麼事啊跟黃委員說明因為原本黃委員當時要刪除的金額是更多的"},{"start":39795.217,"end":39821.651,"text":"是啊 所以我後來撿的金額我問他夠不夠他親口跟我說夠的啊沒有啦 這個我跟你講啦這不是多少錢啦但是基本上是負信的問題啊到最後一秒鐘的時候來跟我溝通 我很善意知道他們都很辛苦我也按照他們建議的金額改了然後改完了以後 跟我說OK 謝謝然後現在又來說不夠"},{"start":39824.888,"end":39851.686,"text":"我在這邊還是跟黃委員說明確實這個減劣數還是會讓這個對工會勞教的補助減少所以在前面的確會有讓工會勞教的部分減少的部分所以我們還是想要你還是沒有回答我的問題嗎那所以那個時候的所以那個時候完全按照你們要減劣的數字"},{"start":39853.203,"end":39877.143,"text":"然後結果你現在說不夠那代表了你們來溝通講的數字根本就沒有沒有可有信度啊那個委員其實當時不是沒有可能當時其實確實是原本要刪除的金額更多那所以我們當時的確是在這個協商的過程裡面其實是希望降低那個"},{"start":39878.16,"end":39900.905,"text":"我老實講啊也沒有什麼協商啊勞動部什麼時候來找我協商過從來沒有來找我協商過從來沒有從來沒有什麼時候勞動部來找我協商過我們有我們有沒有關係啊那你要這樣堅持就這樣堅持這個案子我堅持保留"},{"start":39904.002,"end":39921.291,"text":"我們還是希望能夠爭取這一筆因為這的確是給工會的這個勞教的補助啦如果台灣民眾黨團現在堅持檢列第74案 檢列228萬9千元那國民黨團跟民進黨團有沒有意見表達吳思耀委員請發言"},{"start":39932.766,"end":39958.384,"text":"我想這個剛剛洪部長表達的很清楚啦就是在在討論預算刪減數的時候我們都可以想像在那個討論的當下也許勞動部一定是在努力爭取的範圍之下本來可能刪更多最後說那要不這個好我們接受吧然後呢接受了之後的刪減數"},{"start":39960.492,"end":39974.172,"text":"也因為影響了勞教然後收到了工會勞動朋友的反應他們認為補助變少了勞教推的好像沒有那麼給力了所以才希望勞動部能夠"},{"start":39975.3,"end":39992.155,"text":"恢復或者是對於工會多一點這些勞教的必要的補助所以是勞動部長今天在這裡也是基於反映工會朋友想要爭取這些給予補助的經費那我想洪部長已經很努力的表達他的立場"},{"start":39993.096,"end":40019.309,"text":"執政黨也很努力的希望能夠讓這些勞教不影響工會的權益不影響工會朋友的期待但我想這個努力我們都在今天的直播也做成努力了啦既然民眾黨團不同意見我們少數黨也只能接受嘛但洪部長也努力了相信工會的朋友都看到了那第74案顯然無法達成共識我們本案保留送院會處理 好不好"},{"start":40021.903,"end":40023.905,"text":"沒有 那就雙院會保留蛤"},{"start":40030.646,"end":40050.945,"text":"我們是希望 我可以跟黃委員我們再討論一下我們還是希望能夠 我們有沒有機會能夠就刪減就留 至少這一筆留128 就刪128可不可以至少我們希望留100給公會的勞教委員剛剛表達很清楚 他就堅持維持他的228"},{"start":40053.107,"end":40055.208,"text":"我剛剛已經把整個過程講得很完整我這個人的個性是是什麼就什麼"},{"start":40072.87,"end":40092.701,"text":"去年在預算協商的過程當中你很堅持說勞動部要來找我協商是那我很堅持說沒有那顯然在這件事情上面我們兩個出現了嚴重的認知上面的落差我們的同仁在委員的研究室的門口待了一個下午"},{"start":40093.888,"end":40110.524,"text":"在我的研究室門口待了一個下午是的 我很確定然後他跟誰協商然後後來因為委員那天說沒有空所以那天他只能回應我們的同仁是很努力的想要爭取跟委員辦公室可以討論的機會的"},{"start":40113.293,"end":40135.154,"text":"不是沒有討論不是沒有去爭取的不是啊你說你有來爭取我或許可以認同你說你有跟我協商那我就沒有辦法認同所以我說我們的同仁是很努力的去跟委員辦公室爭取希望能夠有溝通的機會這件事情我是很確定的你現在不是立委了你是部長好不好我們不是你來我好像跟打乒乓一樣"},{"start":40136.114,"end":40162.169,"text":"部長基於他說明也很正當嗎這個意思就是說你沒有採取這個動作但是黃國昌委員他覺得沒有面對面的協商這是有一點點落差所以我們不能在這邊繼續針鋒相對但是我要替我的同仁表達我們有爭取希望溝通但是沒有面對面協商所以大家是有一點文字上語言上有點不太一樣好不好讓我嘗試一下那本案第74案"},{"start":40163.615,"end":40191.221,"text":"我們就送保留送院會好不好好第75案改組決議好 謝謝勞動部 謝謝農業部第16款這開了現在已經到11點40分這個要稍微注意力要更集中一點那農業部第75案國民黨團的改組決議大家"},{"start":40195.521,"end":40211.368,"text":"是 我們遵照辦理好 謝謝農業部表達尊重辦理 好不好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員 謝謝感謝我們訂入第17款衛生福利部邱部長辛苦喔 等了一下午不好意思喔 不好意思喔 太晚了謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":40215.154,"end":40229.583,"text":"那現在 國民黨團所提的檢列50%衛生部主管全部都有767778沒有7啊 7677台灣民眾黨團所提案檢列398萬2千請邱部長表達意見好 院長 各位黨團"},{"start":40239.762,"end":40259.487,"text":"前輩有關於76案我們有謝謝我們跟王委員溝通我們同仁有些說明那得到的是得到初步的一個"},{"start":40261.552,"end":40271.277,"text":"協商的結果是說 機關署減類30%食藥署減類媒體先導會健保署減類20%社家署減類媒體先導會中醫署減類30%國健署減類10%那本部這個部分我們有補送資料是不是我們希望也比照比照那個30% 機關署的30%這樣的情況刪減"},{"start":40291.004,"end":40313.971,"text":"部長您能不能把資料給我們一下好不好因為後來我也沒有收到你們的資料因為那時候我們每一個就是他們說明啊我們都有做調整那大家彼此有共識可是你們的資料一直都沒有送過來把您剛才口頭報告變成文字資料來我傳閱每個黨團好不好因為這樣子大家沒有辦法迅速把它記起來"},{"start":40315.751,"end":40320.895,"text":"沒關係 不急 不急 你請衛福部的人來把它書寫一下 好不好"},{"start":40347.752,"end":40362.379,"text":"報告主席 我們是不是趕快把提案文字修一版過去給委員這邊看一下我們趕快修我必須要傳給每個黨團好不好好 麻煩您一下那部長您先休息 我們先往下面好 謝謝"},{"start":40365.274,"end":40393.147,"text":"環境部的七十八案環境部 彭部長好 你好五百一十三萬兩千國民黨團所提案全數檢列 請問環境部有沒有意見好 報告委員我要說一個說明因為這個主要是環評那我們其實在過去這幾個月當中針對這種第一個是太陽光電的環評我們退了一個屏東三個三個暗場它很大型第二個是陸域風機有三個我們都已經顯著的退回"},{"start":40393.647,"end":40416.256,"text":"而且對於台東跟宜蘭的那個陸域風機我們都有明確表態不支持不鼓勵喔那這個就是一個環評的一個功能那我們未來會強加的來做處理那我們為什麼需要這個費用呢他最主要是說我們今年還會給環評總體檢第二個呢是新任環評委員也要上任所以他們要多了解但是我知道現在已經很晚了齁所以我願意是不是可以讓我們節省使用一下檢列250萬"},{"start":40418.8,"end":40420.4,"text":"因為畢竟114年環境部的預算提出來比去年113年要節約很多"},{"start":40445.507,"end":40465.857,"text":"所以追加的部分我本來想說通通要給你的你主動表達要錢250萬那我們就同意啦謝謝副總召我們是不是就全部好不好環境部 市長團謝謝副總召我們就全部同意追加嗎副長你要不要再說一下快點"},{"start":40467.603,"end":40476.375,"text":"委員如果可以多的話 我相信我會還平的會符合大家的期待我們會更努力啦 如果可以的話我們也希望能夠不要刪減78案"},{"start":40482.324,"end":40509.875,"text":"下次記得要講之前要先想清楚好不好這算是一個因為啊因為啊照你的意思啊250啊你這個會漲記憶喔明天就記得 馬上就要來明天預算馬上就要來下次要講之前要先想清楚好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝第78案我們照環境部彭部長的宣布因為已經很晚了所以我們減列250萬不是啦 不是啦 不是啦好 謝謝不是啦 院長不是啦"},{"start":40512.093,"end":40541.162,"text":"不用剪了啦都給啦我剛剛聽到的副總召我的記憶很新欸你是說全部都給欸沒有沒有我們剛才已經非常清楚我覺得時間已經很晚了不需要再這樣子一直我們就剪了因為彭部長同意了嘛好 謝謝彭部長辛苦您喔真的拖很晚現在已經11點快50分了 謝謝我們接下來請文化部"},{"start":40544.46,"end":40558.921,"text":"70...沒有 衛福部那個寫完的文字稿我們就開始了我們79案 80案 81案 82案 83案到84 85 86我們請文化部表達翁曉琳委員"},{"start":40560.443,"end":40564.368,"text":"好 各位委員大家好我們今天在那個委員會是凍結了2378我有一個想法跟大家"},{"start":40578.582,"end":40597.722,"text":"聽聽看好不好 就是我主動減列第81全部的沒宣費 82也是全部的沒宣費然後在84 我們的那個台灣plus這個全部減掉 84 85全部減掉"},{"start":40598.883,"end":40611.581,"text":"然後原來我們的所有費用原來在那個委員會是减動百分之十那我這邊全部減百分之三減百分之十以上是我們聽不太懂"},{"start":40612.745,"end":40628.364,"text":"不然我再講一次81案全刪你同意對不對對我現在是想說我主動刪掉81跟82同意他們的提案81 82全部刪因為他是沒宣費嘛我這個全部願意刪掉81 82"},{"start":40631.027,"end":40642.48,"text":"然後84是369萬84跟85我也願意全部刪掉然後再來剩下的錢我們願意310%因為原來我們在委員會是動10%"},{"start":40645.403,"end":40671.876,"text":"再三百分之十我現在是有點不太清楚連我都不太清楚鳳海山是吧例如84例如84我們現在台灣民眾黨能提議減列369但是您同意1088全三是不是這個意思不是不是不是我要聽準部長同意提案 對不起同意提案 我講錯了因為你同三這個就是很嚴重所以我一定要確定就是同意減列369是是 我講錯了對 好"},{"start":40673.937,"end":40701.582,"text":"那這就非常清楚了 翁小玲委員請是因為在79的提案裡面我是提議就是這次的追加預算2億8千8百85萬是全山那主要的理由就是因為文化部其實他在今年的預算是編列了188億那麼事實上本院只有山簡文化部8億多一點那麼這次他又追加預算2億8千多"},{"start":40702.702,"end":40723.877,"text":"主要的他追加的項目是什麼就是煤燻煤燻費還有獎補助款然後以及什麼水電差旅費特別費等等這就已經高達了將近就是加起來就2億多那我要講就是說其實煤燻費本來就應該要刪然後另外獎補助的費用他獎補助的像是補助給什麼公視啊捐助還有"},{"start":40727.899,"end":40743.824,"text":"汇聚什么文化黑潮的计划又捐助中央通讯社等等的其实这些部分你们再用一般的钱如果你真的要做的话一般钱也可以就用第二余倍金做也可以或者说也没有那么急你们到明年再去捐助也可以"},{"start":40744.244,"end":40772.915,"text":"所以我根本認為說其實沒有必要在今年的預算裡面透過追加預算又把這些獎補助我們本來給你們刪掉的獎補助你這次又把它百分之百追加回來我認為是沒有道理而且也看不出來你們實際上所提出來的計畫內容是什麼所以就整個的文化部所提出來的相關要追加預算的部分本行事件就是還是要全數刪除"},{"start":40774.946,"end":40791.468,"text":"那像剛才李部長所提的就是他把梅宣還有八十四案這些還有八十五案這些他都同意如果照您這個意思就皮子不存毛漿煙覆囉就全部都沒有了我們在下面討論已經變得"},{"start":40793.905,"end":40804.922,"text":"你知道我意思嗎所以我要請各黨團 因為重要沒關係 我尊重各黨團我只是說後面再討論起來就變得沒有意義了那請吳世偉你要發言 請發言"},{"start":40806.404,"end":40832.416,"text":"是要替文化部門來請命每年文化部的預算我們努力的想方設法爭取永遠是突不過國家總預算1%的那個天花板這對所有的文化發展來講這一直是我們心中很深的一個痛那當然這幾年我們努力的讓文化預算增加再增加但它終究是所有預算當中的弱勢的部會"},{"start":40833.496,"end":40849.163,"text":"那剛剛呢李部長有具體的針對在野黨的委員比較argue的幾個項目的預算執行譬如說沒宣費願意照案刪除譬如說台灣plus的經費在第84案願意照案刪除"},{"start":40850.143,"end":40870.602,"text":"但是我是比較不了解85案這個人文出版的這個已經是預算少到又少的那部長同意1600也願意被減啦我個人是覺得我對於出版文化這個是最弱勢的我都不同意刪減它但是部長同意刪減這個我想也是很痛苦的不得已的決定"},{"start":40871.303,"end":40889.647,"text":"那這些這四案都照案簡列之後部長還在請求溫委員的同意這把兩億八千多萬的錢減掉這幾個有國民黨民眾黨的提案之後他還願意自己再刪減10%我覺得對於文化預算來講部長講這些應當心裡都很難受"},{"start":40895.868,"end":40901.084,"text":"如果我可以為民進黨多說一點我真的是認為文化預算我都希望能夠"},{"start":40902.613,"end":40929.241,"text":"協助來爭取跟捍衛啦所以請小林委員是不是真的可以體諒一下他把這四案都照案有民眾黨的案有國民黨的案都照案檢列之後那餘額再自動再減10%我覺得這真的是不是可能爭取國民黨委員的支持好 王國民委員請發言陳培宇委員先發言 王國民委員請準備"},{"start":40930.523,"end":40952.66,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為部長其實也是非常資深的文化人 出版人 電影導演我認同CEO委員剛說的部長您在自己主動同意簡列資訊預算的時候您一定非常的心痛尤其是我難以想像部長當你走出今天的會議室你要如何面對所有文化人跟出版人"},{"start":40955.29,"end":40975.903,"text":"你們盡量嘲笑好了你們盡量嘲笑台灣的文化工作者所以我想要請部長說一說陳美瑋我們尊重發言委好 拜託一下我剛剛在發言是你們在善笑請尊重我的發言"},{"start":40977.165,"end":41002.984,"text":"大聲說你在善笑院長剛剛說時間很晚我們尊重一下所以我想要請部長說一下您剛剛在提這些想法的時候可能會造成哪些影響我相信部長您是評估過的好不好 謝謝我可以講話嗎部長您稍微等一下因為還有兩位我再一位委員發言您再好不好請 王委員請"},{"start":41004.935,"end":41019.344,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為這部分是翁曉琳委員提議刪減兩億八千萬那國民黨團的提案是一億八千萬因為剛才好像大家都忽視了這個提案"},{"start":41020.645,"end":41049.384,"text":"然后刚才部长他对于有一些提案他说他同意然后自己也愿意从冻结2300多万然后变成剩下的余额来删除10%所以看起来好像很慷慨的样子但是我把它算一下也就是说刚才包含没宣备"},{"start":41050.665,"end":41061.631,"text":"包含第84項84案 85案全部加起來一共是5000萬左右 5000萬我把"},{"start":41065.097,"end":41072.301,"text":"沒有 它剩下的再加10%我再把它加回去所以大概是7300萬所以其實並沒有剛才所講的這樣的慷慨"},{"start":41081.765,"end":41104.593,"text":"至於就說文化部為什麼我們在這一次對於它追加預算的部分它的這個減劣數 我們的刪除比較多我覺得不要再用這樣的一個這種情樂的方式因為在短短這段時間文化部所發生的"},{"start":41105.473,"end":41132.582,"text":"有關於社會各界輿論大家沒有辦法接受的相關的補助我也沒有看到文化部有任何的說明檢討有嗎 沒有啊好 剛才特別我剛剛直接提到的包含在大罷免之前的大支的這個影片 歌曲的補助"},{"start":41133.652,"end":41153.323,"text":"然後直接去攻擊在野黨所以部長我不曉得你要不要說明一下你們的補助然後是直接去攻擊在野黨去攻擊其他的五月天的鄉信音樂這樣的補助你讓我們怎麼審你的預算第二點"},{"start":41156.653,"end":41175.443,"text":"我們也認為文學出版很重要但是這些補助相關的預算是不是過度集中的問題就如同我們為什麼在這一次以及我們在今年年初有關於對沒宣費為什麼我們特別的嚴格審查"},{"start":41179.434,"end":41208.76,"text":"也就是假所謂的補助文學 補助出版業 補助文化團體但是過度集中的問題最近所爆發的青鳥書店的過度集中的問題短短幾年裡面陸陸續續可以拿到超過六千萬的補助請問一下哪一個書店或出版業有這樣的殊榮和待遇呢"},{"start":41210.455,"end":41232.329,"text":"有說明嗎 有回應嗎所以為什麼我們在這一次的追加預算裡面我們看不到過去這些爭議性的事件社會大眾無法接受 甚至我們的文化團體都無法接受"},{"start":41233.547,"end":41250.926,"text":"的狀況並沒有得到解決啊就如同我們在沒宣費裡面大家一再的講 剛才比如說像那個剛剛徐巧欣委員國防的這些文宣的宣傳重不重要 重要啊但是為什麼又集中在三立民事呢為什麼這麼集中啊"},{"start":41255.515,"end":41262.099,"text":"所以我覺得在這次的文化部也同樣有這樣的問題過去假所謂的對文化的補助然後行對特定團體的一個集中資源之集中難道不應該去改變這樣的問題嗎這樣錢我們還給得下去嗎"},{"start":41282.458,"end":41305.406,"text":"所以我在這邊至少國民黨團非常堅持檢列一億八千萬以上報告王宏威委員堅持國民黨黨團所提的檢列一億八千萬等一下再請李部長來回覆羅志強委員請發言我非常不客氣的說啦"},{"start":41312.847,"end":41342.368,"text":"文化部你改名為罷免部不是更好真的啊你在這次 我剛剛其實喔今天下午也說了一句話是幫我們總召說的話柯總召說的話雪崩的時候啊沒有一片雪花是無辜的啦所以當執政黨現在要清算追殺柯總召的時候我送這句話差不多了啦 差不多了啦"},{"start":41344.022,"end":41371.352,"text":"我告訴你 你文化部就是那片雪花之一啦你不要講王宏威我的選區也是啊 你補助一大堆文化的人搞罷免今天我是支持翁小玲的提案啦國民黨提案已經客氣了國民黨提案客氣了啦但是沒關係 黨團的提案是我們集體的意見底線就是國民黨提案"},{"start":41373.564,"end":41394.256,"text":"文化部你再去搞這些集中補助什麼青鳥書店的事情台灣人民不會接受啦包括說你今天什麼臨日攻擊啊包括你今天跟我講說什麼大隻啊多得很數不勝數國民黨團就是一億八千"},{"start":41405.16,"end":41431.573,"text":"現在這個 李部長現在這個問題就是國民黨團堅持一億八千那如果這樣成立的話第七十九案就撤案了對不對因為國民黨團現在一億八不要急 那現在李部長現在問題是在於您剛剛所提的這幾個案八一 八二 八四 八五"},{"start":41434.685,"end":41462.982,"text":"是不是要照例 這個就變得很重要 請李部長請說明沒關係 你可以跟幕僚討論一下沒關係就剪1億8是不是就是"},{"start":41465.371,"end":41467.373,"text":"80加81的 是 還加上3,023因為他們本來是編2億8嘛好 那沒關係 好 休息4分鐘"},{"start":42205.441,"end":42216.14,"text":"那個 好 謝謝黨黨哥 黨黨們請坐好 謝謝 現在已經晚上十二點十五分了 請大家請坐來 我們再忍耐一下 來 請柯總召請發言"},{"start":42219.639,"end":42240.398,"text":"夜深了齁人很安靜了有關於文化部預算齁那工農黨團所提的減淚一億八千萬齁我們覺得剛才我們談的八千萬還是往這方向就照這樣就好了這減淚一億八千萬嘛留一億這已經最大數了可以吧"},{"start":42245.075,"end":42246.397,"text":"副總召 意下如何 請回答吧"},{"start":42257.489,"end":42284.42,"text":"好 柯總召你表達完了嗎請副總召不不不 翁小林委員先舉手好 翁委員請我還是要表達意見因為我們黨團這邊提的是一個一億八千萬的這個追加一億八千萬的簡歷還有加上一個三千萬的沒宣費因為沒宣費我們這個是所有的機關我們都一併都會刪除所以在這裡的話還是強烈建議就是一億八千萬再加上三千萬那我們剛剛"},{"start":42285.18,"end":42286.404,"text":"應該是跟市長 市長已經討論過"},{"start":42290.239,"end":42318.646,"text":"是不知道部長是不是也同意我覺得這個部分因為你們這次其實有很大一部分的錢七八千萬的錢都是去做獎補助獎補助他並不是一個極需要的你們可以在明年獎補助所以這也不符合我們這邊講什麼重大事故等等的這些所需要的一定要急需的這個追加預算的經費所以我們從兩億八千然後減掉這七八千萬這兩億一我覺得是很合理的數字"},{"start":42319.406,"end":42321.333,"text":"好 翁惠小林委員表達完畢請吳思耀委員請發言"},{"start":42324.339,"end":42349.836,"text":"作为长期关心文化的立法委员对于艺文团体的奖补助它每年有分不同的级别来做申请所以说如果刚刚温委员说这奖补助也可以明年再补这就错了这对于下半年如果它是有原定的不管表演艺术或是视觉艺术或者是出版或者是其他的文化的创作"},{"start":42350.797,"end":42378.298,"text":"他原定在下半年要進行的文化展演就會因為這筆獎補助他沒有辦法獲得會影響他今年的展演的計畫而這樣的展演計畫也許在國內也許在國外也許是年輕世代所以這個獎補助的制度如果在野黨的委員對獎補助的制度有很多的垂詢那歡迎大家在獎補助的機制上我們就一個合理的監督來做進行所以說我今天在審這筆預算是這樣的"},{"start":42380.239,"end":42395.488,"text":"我們是努力的希望能夠替文化部多捍衛多爭取這一筆最佳預算的列定是兩億八千萬那我們已經很努力的希望同意在野黨的委員要刪減的一億八的額度"},{"start":42396.428,"end":42415.856,"text":"那更不要說在這些發言的討論過程當中真的非常的心痛不要一再的把文化人貼上標籤好嗎不要一再去汙名化文化人所以我們還是希望一億八已經是最極限那我希望讓部長再說明一下"},{"start":42416.656,"end":42442.401,"text":"好嗎 那個院長這個部分到底這個影響有多多麼難以執行 至愛難行我是希望讓部長再親自的說明一下會的那現在第82案、83案、84案、85案、86案是台灣民眾黨團所提議特別是第83案劉淑冰委員所提議第8還有一個84、85、86台灣民眾黨團請表達意見"},{"start":42448.823,"end":42476.698,"text":"我們提的這些案子因為講話我不太喜歡講抽象的東西啦一直在講什麼義務團體看一下台灣民眾黨團的提案我們前面第一個八十二案就是刪煤儀宣廢這跟義務團體毫無關係嘛然後接下來八十四案 八十四案刪的是台灣plus嘛剛剛部長也同意這跟義務團體也沒有關係嘛"},{"start":42478.658,"end":42495.494,"text":"台灣Plus的案子我去年就就質詢過啦它對外產生的效益是什麼很多人都打一個問號結果真的轟動全台灣的是我們的台灣Plus在介紹美國總統當選人的時候說選了一個判刑的重刑犯我的老天啊這是在扯台灣後腿"},{"start":42507.136,"end":42534.06,"text":"How Taiwan Lose Trump這裡面一定要好好記上一大筆怎麼會有新聞媒體人用這樣子的方式還是國家通訊社那代表的是什麼他代表台灣說川普說美國人怎麼會選一個被判刑的重刑犯出來這到底是在幫台灣還是在扯台灣後腿"},{"start":42535.219,"end":42561.892,"text":"我在教文委員會我都公開質詢過啦85案85案請不要妄文生意啊看到科目說人文文學及出版業務就妄文生意說這一定是藝文團體剛剛我們刪的是補助給中央通訊社的錢那是補助給中央通訊社的錢請問跟藝文團體到底有什麼關係"},{"start":42563.581,"end":42586.145,"text":"我本來是不想講話的因為部長很清楚我們每提的一個案子上面都有理由啊那但是如果我要坐在這邊用模糊的文字什麼在野黨然後都在什麼不支持藝文團體這種大帽子我們絕對不接受啊現在是連在坐在這邊討論預算都在進行認知作戰嗎白紙黑字看不懂嗎"},{"start":42594.386,"end":42622.161,"text":"還是明明看得懂我要抹黑就抹黑 要污蔑就污蔑我要請部長講你們不要影響我一定要請部長說明的謝謝黃國昌總召的發言我補充講一下因為剛剛黃國昌委員說的這幾個案子都是部長同意刪除的"},{"start":42623.041,"end":42646.354,"text":"都是部長已經同意刪除梅宣刪除台灣plus刪除您剛剛說的項目民眾黨提的都是部長同意刪除的我們現在在討論的是總數要再疊加上去的一億八兩億一這部理很難接受我們在說明的是這樣如果現在院長主持會議已經亂了秩序大家都可以拿麥克風來講就來講"},{"start":42648.095,"end":42652.356,"text":"剛剛針對八十五萬不暫時吳志瑤說我還要再爭取一下我要幫藝文團體講話剛剛就是你說的啊八十五萬跟藝文團體有什麼關係啊全部都是針對中央通訊社這整個兩億八裡頭兩億八裡面沒有藝文團體需要的經費嗎你要刪中央通訊社已經同意讓你刪了請你八十五萬看清楚欸"},{"start":42675.283,"end":42677.565,"text":"沒有看到兩億八有多少藝文團體需要的不是啊"},{"start":42698.118,"end":42702.822,"text":"大家請安靜現在是晚上12點22分每個委員都很辛苦列席的部長也很辛苦工作夥伴也很辛苦"},{"start":42726.158,"end":42752.967,"text":"我們現在已經接近尾聲了能不能請大家把情緒壓一下好不好然後我們能夠回歸到理性的討論如果大家都同意我們這會議就繼續如果不同意我要再喊休息我們回來可能就要一點兩點了明天早上還要一大早開院會能不能請大家無論如何把情緒穩定下來好不好我們接下來請李部長說明"},{"start":42755.629,"end":42761.359,"text":"好 謝謝大家謝謝大家剛才講得那麼激動其實我也滿激動的 因為"},{"start":42762.967,"end":42791.566,"text":"各位給我一點時間我慢慢講不然我也會很激動我剛剛接到電話就是因為跟我們這個部門有關說部長那個85萬要幫我保留什麼我想不是85萬的問題就是我們已經沒有辦法再講85萬我先跟大家報告一下這一次的我們文化部被刪掉是11億我們現在回填回去的是佔25%2億多我相信各位都知道我們一點都沒有回填太多這2億多"},{"start":42793.567,"end":42819.725,"text":"可能是每個部門最少的那為什麼我願意讓步是因為我想這樣下去可能會一直沒完沒了其實我剛才刪的東西都是其實都是不太夠的報告說剛才講到專案社其實專案社還差好幾千萬補不太起來但是我願意刪然後包括沒宣費其實我們也根本就一整年都沒有沒宣費我們也自己克服我不自喜歡刪是實在沒辦法"},{"start":42820.806,"end":42843.487,"text":"講一個條件這樣子 希望各位讓我過但是我有一點想藉這個機會講一下各位可能對整個文化人跟文化界有點誤會譬如說讓我直接講好了剛才你們提到大支什麼大支或者青鳥書店其實青鳥書店跟青鳥是沒有關係的青鳥書店也沒有拿到文化部什麼錢"},{"start":42844.628,"end":42870.203,"text":"而且它也不是什麼我們的側翼這是青鳥書店大吉是好多年以前我們文化部就在補助那個饒舌的一個計畫辦饒舌的演唱會那時候我根本沒有來也還沒有發言我不得不幫你踩個煞車回歸一下好不好能精簡一點好 我馬上結束精簡一點 謝謝就是大吉拍了一支MV"},{"start":42871.28,"end":42895.1,"text":"有沒有罵到誰我也不知道我現在只是簡單我要簡單講就是我們不能夠講一個青鳥書店或講一個大吉或者講到一個文化部是大罷免部我最後的結論就是整個大罷免部整個大罷免過程文化部拿了哪一毛錢支持了哪一個導演支持了哪一個作家站出來真的沒有"},{"start":42896.175,"end":42911.734,"text":"我在這裡真的要聲明大家不要一口氣就講文化人大罷免文化人全部是自己站出來的拍了每一支電影我都不知道是誰給他錢自己掏腰包免費的一千多個作家站出來我也都不認識"},{"start":42912.995,"end":42940.731,"text":"我作為一個文化部長我就照顧我這個文化部的產業非常公平的每一個案子都去請評審你可以來查我也願意給大家調資料不能夠用非常少數的一兩個例子其實也跟這個好像你會把錢擺在那個綠媒創造那個製造偶像我覺得文化部從來沒有幹過這種事情"},{"start":42942.066,"end":42955.131,"text":"謝謝你們讓我講讓我講這番話 因為我會越講越激動我不能夠讓文化人被大家這樣踐踏今天預算如果你要這樣刪 刪到我不能用那我就 我真的沒有辦法接受"},{"start":42964.37,"end":42990.858,"text":"翁小玲委員請 翁委員請我還是要談剛剛這個文化部部長他講的這些事情我覺得都沒有講到我們今天追加預算的重點你提的內容是什麼合不合理我覺得這是最重要的所以我們剛剛談的結果就認為說你們的講補助你們講補助誰不是講補助地方文化團體不是要委員講那些"},{"start":42992.779,"end":43013.939,"text":"是給公共電視 中央通訊社還有什麼黑潮計畫這它有急迫性嗎沒有急迫性啊那為什麼一定要在這時候編所以刪掉差不多七千萬兩億一這是我們能夠接受的如果說今天部長不能接受那我也認為說其實乾脆就這個案子就是明天去表決柯總召請說 請表達一下"},{"start":43018.533,"end":43022.328,"text":"我覺得在這個地方大家稍微要冷靜一點"},{"start":43023.973,"end":43050.864,"text":"文化坦白坦白講文化部是大家應該都很共同來支持才對我想李部長跟我是同年了我們兩個都四十年次他這種年紀還要回到政府單位來做事坦白講他有他一定理想以及使命那今天要講的我直面認證就是說我們三個國民黨三個一億八千萬這已經一個很大數字"},{"start":43051.764,"end":43078.875,"text":"但是在這裡我特別要為中央社請命中央社一千六百萬一千六百萬兩千兩千塊那個不應該刪所以我是比較寄予建議說一千一億八千萬再少一千六百萬兩千中央社不因為那都是人事費用大家是不是這樣我們大家今天就讓這個案子這樣通過好不好那個現在請往後面請"},{"start":43081.621,"end":43099.434,"text":"主席在這邊我們必須要嚴正聲明剛才部長所講的話我們完全不能接受我已經講過我們審查預算本於職權如果我們刪除預算就是踐踏摸摸摸那這樣子"},{"start":43102.489,"end":43121.001,"text":"我們立法院的意義存在何在呢立法院不能刪預算啊我們剛才那麼多的部會不管是相關部會 衛福部 國防部 外交部我們做預算的處理這叫做踐踏"},{"start":43122.796,"end":43145.404,"text":"我請問一下文化部長為何如此的可以污衊立法院那我再跟大家報告一下我們今天處理的是追加預算但是如果我們回推也就是今年度通過的我們立法院通過的文化部的預算279億"},{"start":43151.496,"end":43177.49,"text":"比前一年度多出了19億比前一年度多出了19億請問一下這叫做踐踏嗎這叫做踐踏嗎所以我覺得今天我們在討論預算的時候能不能回歸我們的預算也尊重立法院對預算的審理權"},{"start":43180.643,"end":43182.525,"text":"用這種情緒拉鎖用這種給人家戴帽子的方式這叫做爭取預算嗎其實我們剛才在休息的時間大家都很願意我後來 我還 我覺得我還在幫文化部在做說客啦"},{"start":43208.254,"end":43233.324,"text":"然後現在就一個大帽子敲下來如果是這樣的話 主席對不起 我支持翁小林委員所提的全數刪除我們顯然第19款文化部主管沒有辦法達成共識我們就 那個院長"},{"start":43234.778,"end":43263.296,"text":"既然有有中間的休息時間休息完你要尊重一下各黨黨邊要講什麼我剛剛舉手你就不讓我講你有舉手嗎你剛才沒有舉手啊越來越複雜這樣子啦這樣子啦既然都講到這麼難大家都講到這麼深入所以剛剛洪威才特別講114年文化部的預算比113年"},{"start":43266.226,"end":43293.246,"text":"多了19億還是小事蔣樸柱從9億變成23億歷史性的天花板一下躲上去多了十幾億然後突然陳副部長說的嘛一千多個人出來說要罷免藍營立委我也不曉得這些人從哪裡來的但我們只看到蔣樸柱錢多了好多"},{"start":43296.653,"end":43323.244,"text":"明明預算就比去年還多而且講不住用倍數成長從來沒有過我們踐踏的哪一位文人歷史性的天花板9億在一年當中變成20幾億以前從來沒有超過9億突然變20幾億在今年年初我們已經被洗過一次了"},{"start":43325.767,"end":43353.912,"text":"也放 也讓他們通過了然後現在大發明已經結束了我覺得這八個月來 八九個月來 天天在念這些魔咒啊已經變成他們生命中已經不可或缺的一環了已經把假的事情當作真的 已經講得很習慣了本來西芬可以對不對 三更半夜大家都想走了"},{"start":43356.081,"end":43373.836,"text":"還有這個部長拜託不要來這裡看起來比立法委員還要凶悍這不是一個當部長的人該有的作為以前你沒有在當部長之前你怎麼做沒有人有意見當了部長以後不能這個樣子你說一千多個人站出來要罷免我們那我請問一下你有沒有站出來"},{"start":43386.007,"end":43393.012,"text":"去捍衛你的預算說你今年114年比去年通過多多少預算你有沒有出來講當執政黨的委員不斷地說藍白刪預算刪了文化園的錢事實上你通過了比去年多這麼多錢你有站出來講過一次嗎你有站出來講過一次真正的實話公道話有沒有講過沒有啊"},{"start":43414.798,"end":43428.946,"text":"放任所有那種謠言來攻擊國會議員放任所有的謊言變成大家朗朗上口這是一個文化部長該做的事嗎而且預算是你拿走的你今天陳儒 翁委員講的這有什麼急迫性嗎我剛剛聽得更好笑那什麼下半年的討論要拍片要幹什麼不知道錢在哪裡"},{"start":43444.775,"end":43459.791,"text":"有會到現在要拍片沒有早就申請好了嗎還會下半年才決定要拍片才不曉得說錢在哪裡真的當我們幼稚園畢業還是幼稚園還沒有畢業來這裡當國會議員都不應該這樣講話的"},{"start":43464.778,"end":43487.371,"text":"今天要大家和和氣齊起來昨天協商也沒有 大家也是和和氣今天早上也是 今天晚上都三更半夜明天一早 我本來要幫柯總召見別的就聽說在院會 明天要開黨團大會各派系在華山論見"},{"start":43488.954,"end":43507.508,"text":"國民黨團都拍了一堆 拍了一堆代表要去管理啊本來我們一堆人要去管理的 回到主題啊我想說明天要給柯總召見別 今天想說他講什麼我們都同意結果沒想到還要 大家還要吵一架"},{"start":43512.72,"end":43534.702,"text":"現在我覺得我們如果要教育會處理我想就差不多了我現在就宣告了好不好好謝謝好啦我道歉了文化部不是罷免部了合法解辦部了不是嗎"},{"start":43536.684,"end":43556.24,"text":"你還敢講一千多個人站出來罷免這個在野黨立委裡面多少人你補助的那麼剛好你合法給完飯的人通通都跳出來大罷免動輒幾千萬耶真正的藝文創作者拿到你文化部二十萬都了不起你驕傲什麼你告訴我啊真正的獨立書店能夠拿到你文化部二十萬嗎"},{"start":43567.236,"end":43584.812,"text":"真正的藝文創作者有辦法拿到你文化部的50萬嗎大致多少錢你告訴大家林立功記多少錢你告訴大家九把刀多少錢你告訴大家全部告訴大家都是幾千萬幾千萬起跳啦今天不想要那麼怒的跟你講這些話但你剛剛講的話我無法接受啦"},{"start":43595.373,"end":43598.034,"text":"紅衛剛剛在休息的時候不是在幫你們爭取嗎結果你們自己要這樣子 還扣個大帽子過來什麼踐踏藝文團體 什麼踐踏文化人都是假文化人啦 我告訴你啊 不客氣啦還一千多人欸 我佩服你文化部啊合法解飯部啊 謝謝"},{"start":43629.352,"end":43632.458,"text":"那我看這個黨團顯然沒有辦法達成共識陳美瑋要發言嗎"},{"start":43640.12,"end":43658.497,"text":"我們現在第19款文化部主管第79案到86案顯然黨團之間沒有辦法成共識我們送院會處理謝謝文化部以及所有文化部所有官員列席 謝謝我們先回到衛福部"},{"start":43663.243,"end":43675.689,"text":"我們衛福部76案跟77案謝謝邱部長這麼辛苦又把它算了重新把它計算清楚一下"},{"start":43686.84,"end":43702.573,"text":"衛福部所算出來總共金額是一億零九百九十九萬九千元 邱部長您要不要補充好 謝謝我們謝謝主席 院長所以我們衛福部就是刪減"},{"start":43705.872,"end":43710.394,"text":"衛福部本部30% 4813萬7千元疾病管署署30% 4531萬6千元食藥署的媒宣會 348萬3千元"},{"start":43723.078,"end":43727.963,"text":"健保署20% 226萬5千元國健署10% 772萬5千元社家署的媒憲會101萬6千元中醫所30% 205萬7千元共計減淚1億999萬9千元以上報告"},{"start":43744.585,"end":43750.987,"text":"謝謝邱部長的報告因為這個有兩岸一個是國民黨團所提一個是台灣民眾黨黨團所提76萬是國民黨團國民黨團要補充意見嗎國民黨團請副總長那個邱部長不好意思這麼晚了這個國民黨團對你堅守崗位明明要去職"},{"start":43772.458,"end":43789.029,"text":"是內閣部會裡面真正能夠處理好執政黨跟在野黨關係的國會議員就是邱部長然後呢也就是因為你做得太好了你不是屬於略等的部會首長所以你必須離職"},{"start":43791.618,"end":43818.044,"text":"我們對你啊 除了表示惋惜以外我們也希望以後在社會上大家常常見面部長 我們會記得你那你今天也同意本黨團所提的這個案子也協商完成 好不好本黨就也謝謝 也尊重也感謝你這麼晚還在為衛福部努力 謝謝謝謝副總召的發言接下來台灣民眾團請發言"},{"start":43820.024,"end":43842.062,"text":"77案我們就尊重 同意剛剛部長說OK了謝謝邱部長這麼辛苦 衛福部所有的同仁那我們就照案通過了照剛剛衛福部邱部長所提的好 照案通過我們現在回到好 謝謝我們現在回到第20款數位發展部87案"},{"start":43851.827,"end":43862.457,"text":"88 89 90 91好那我們87案88案有國民黨團跟台灣民眾黨團所提案金額一樣正好減列30%請問數位發展部"},{"start":43869.087,"end":43890.534,"text":"請表達意見院長各位委員因為87案跟88案這個金額是一樣的另外之前在財委會已經刪減2億元所以是不是可以把這個三個案子併在一起然後總共就是刪減3億8千萬元不再做額外的刪減 謝謝這個是不是"},{"start":43896.896,"end":43906.319,"text":"報告委員因為這個主管的話我們本部的部分三減一億另外還有素產署的部分也三減一億所以總共是兩億元那這個現在因為這個黨台幹部都沒有拿到這個資料我們就先針對我們這87 88好了一步一步往前推進好嗎好那現在你們貴部是同意三減"},{"start":43929.545,"end":43957.895,"text":"就是三億八千萬元就是同意三億八千萬也就是同意對 那就不再做額外刪減聯席會的就不減這個意思就不再剪副董事長請發言是不是這樣子啦因為這十二億多在辦追加的十二億裡面這個比重大概是各部會裡面你們是最多那現在民眾黨的三億八"},{"start":43958.871,"end":43977.587,"text":"你信任接受那聯席會裡面包括國民黨也包括民進黨大家同意減劣1億那你這12億7千多萬我們是不是就318加1億418好不好就這樣子夜深了"},{"start":43979.751,"end":44002.876,"text":"OK 好 418好不好聯席會我們要 聯席會的我們要尊重好不好 聯席會我們尊重12億多 只差418啦 好不好沒關係 我請提案的另外台灣民眾黨團請表達意見不是 他的已經同意刪掉啦他有提案我總是要尊重一下嘛我們提了88案他們接受"},{"start":44004.428,"end":44026.043,"text":"好 那現在國民黨團所提再加1億聯席會的意見請數位發展部請表達意見可以 好 接受那我們就87案"},{"start":44028.059,"end":44056.215,"text":"88案我們是3減4億8301萬9千元好不好韓委會那個聯席會的1億加上現在民眾黨提的318總共418不過您是哪一位我是數位發展部的政務次長部長走了嗎 現在你要接是不是本席現在是要告訴你"},{"start":44057.964,"end":44079.992,"text":"國民黨團願意止三四一八千萬我真的要拜託你一件事情數位部要做出一些成果來數位部再不做出一些成果我們詐騙滿街都是那我們給這些錢要幹嘛所以要萬事拜託好不好我們給預算還要拜託你"},{"start":44082.441,"end":44093.14,"text":"不要讓我們有很大的壓力 好不好 拜託 謝謝好 謝謝林政次那我們就函那個 函那個遺憶就是聯席會的遺憶"},{"start":44122.248,"end":44150.554,"text":"這個就是總共三減四億八千三百零一萬九千元含聯席會那兩億對不對 這樣的話就完整了各位黨團幹部有意見嗎希望科目讓我們自行調整各位黨團幹部有意見嗎科目要自行調整好 那我們就八九九十九一八九九十九一"},{"start":44158.766,"end":44165.77,"text":"第89案我們已經跟台灣民眾黨黨團溝通過改為簡列100萬元科目自行調整這就是外加上去的跟剛才我們那個8788無關了89案我們就是改簡列100萬各位黨團幹部有意見嗎"},{"start":44180.717,"end":44191.411,"text":"每一件 好 檢列100萬 通過第90案那個數位部請表達意見 林市長這個我們同意好 數位部同意檢列10%4791萬4千元那也是外加 對"},{"start":44197.352,"end":44215.401,"text":"那各位黨團幹部有意見嗎 沒意見好 第九十一案趕快組決議 大家沒意見沒有決議 沒問題 遵照辦理好 遵照辦理 好 那就謝謝謝謝數位發展部進到第二十二款國家科學及技術委員會主管"},{"start":44223.73,"end":44247.295,"text":"吳主委辛苦啊從下午一到現在真的非常非常辛苦啊非常感謝來我們現在國科會檢列沒宣費三十七萬兩千元請國科會表達意見我們予以尊重同意謝謝我們現在檢列那謝謝吳主委謝謝您啊辛苦辛苦謝謝謝謝這麼晚了夜深了好謝謝您"},{"start":44248.7,"end":44266.011,"text":"我們進入第23款經管會彭主委 辛苦辛苦我們現在簡列五百萬七千元由台灣民眾黨長團所提請全部簡列了 請彭主委表達意見"},{"start":44268.599,"end":44291.861,"text":"主席各位委員謝謝大家就是我們今天是最後一案那我想在我們這次整體的預算大概500萬7000是大概在我們大概10.8我們三檢預算的10.8是非常低主要是在這邊請請各位委員能夠支持我們主要有三大項的需要這第一個是有關我們那個"},{"start":44292.662,"end":44320.587,"text":"政期局的大樓他在修理的過程當中發現他的阻尼器出了問題所以要增加一百一十五萬而且他的時間有延宕這一塊是事關公安的部分我想說這個希望能夠支持那另外另外就是我們還有就是有關主要這次會增加這五百萬裡面主要只有三大項另外一下就是我們我們有個檢察局很重要在做整個全國的這個精檢但是因為我們的差旅費"},{"start":44322.428,"end":44333.26,"text":"把它刪掉的時候我們大概很多的檢查的工作就沒辦法進行所以這個有一百多萬也希望能夠另外就是我們的水電費大概主要是這樣的一個很簡單的內容以上 謝謝請提案的台灣民眾黨團請表達意見"},{"start":44339.31,"end":44356.819,"text":"第一個是你們在那個整個追加預算的時候稅出機關追加預算表的說明欄裡面你只有講項目根本沒有講那個項目裡面是因為什麼核重大事故要辦這個追加預算"},{"start":44357.879,"end":44384.337,"text":"第二個然後你講說你們要什麼工程驗收等等等那你到執行率沒有到八成那你們要爭取預算那你們儘管會連一個基本的說明的工作都不願意好好做然後就坐在這邊開口然後講幾句話然後就說所以我要追加這一些錢"},{"start":44388.74,"end":44405.245,"text":"那所以黃總召的 對不起那個結論意思就是說彭主委所提的包括修繕 包括差旅你們修繕需要多少錢115萬115萬115 對好我留115萬給你另外他就是經檢另外經檢的差旅費你經檢差旅費要多少錢134萬那我總共留250萬給你 可以嗎可以可以齁 好"},{"start":44416.977,"end":44436.202,"text":"所以說我們現在 彭主席就說這個案子我們從3減500萬7千元改為保檢列250萬7千元您看好嗎可以好 各黨黨幹部有意見嗎客戶就自行調整就好了剩下就 您就自行調整好不好好 謝謝我們第94通過第93案我們就3減250萬7千元"},{"start":44443.735,"end":44469.523,"text":"第24款海已經處理過之的好 第26第26款直轄市及縣市政府 第一項26款主計總署 陳主席長要不要報告一下"},{"start":44472.541,"end":44490.344,"text":"他說要檢議議員啦這個部分因為我們單位都是簽約這個部分是不是可以再你可不可以大聲一點因為他這是檢議議員但是我們單位都是簽約這個部分是不是可以簽約這樣好 接下來主計長這樣講因為沒有啦 這個事情我必須要說明台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":44500.663,"end":44526.164,"text":"對於左榮泰這次非法把地方政府的一般補助館給刪除其實有非常多的委員大家是不認同沒有辦法接受其實這本來636億沒有要給的但是我們也知道這整件事情的結構就如同我今天坐在這邊一開始在討論遇上案所講的現在左榮泰在搞魯仁勒署"},{"start":44527.526,"end":44542.478,"text":"我們為了要救小孩救肉票所以我願意付贖金但接下來相關的責任該追究還是要追究所以我們才提檢列一元那主計長這樣講那我們就把它改成檢列一千元好了這樣子你也比較好計算這樣好嗎"},{"start":44545.558,"end":44562.487,"text":"那個委員說明一下因為當初通案刪減的時候就是我們在檢列我們指定性刪減的部分我們就是檢列沒辦法刪減才會檢列到一般性補助款這個部分我們就是本身是有困難當初是有困難才去做這樣一個刪減"},{"start":44564.168,"end":44580.245,"text":"是 這個部分我們也要特別再提出來說明好 謝謝主席長的提名那現在就是3.1千元張啟凱委員請發言抱歉 葉先生我一分鐘講一下啦我知道主席長上次我們來協商以後你有把意見帶回去就依照2002年那個解決方式"},{"start":44580.825,"end":44610.485,"text":"那你說後來沒辦法做是因為財政部跟你講說那用債息沒辦法做那事實上你要去克服這個問題嘛2002年可以做事實上它還是可以做得到好不好特別是你們後來真的去砍掉那個地方的一般補助款那真的是完全違法的事情好不好這次是因為老實講我們希望說這是預算審查不要波及到我們這個地方政府因為現在他們熬熬待補這個都是社會福利預算地方基礎的建設跟交易啊所以我們為了要讓地方可以照顧到全民所以我們才放手的啦"},{"start":44611.065,"end":44637.355,"text":"可是拜託你一下 你們一定要弄清楚你不能再做違法的事情 好不好謝謝謝謝張啟凱委員的發言那我們就檢列一千元第九十五案主決議 現在有兩個主決議特別包括一個已經完成三個黨團幹部都有簽署另外第二個主決議只有國民黨團簽署提案目前還沒有台灣民眾黨跟民進黨來提"},{"start":44639.521,"end":44648.551,"text":"我是不是建議一下請民進黨跟台灣民眾黨團來看一下我先把第一個三個黨團都簽署的主決議我們在這裡宣讀一遍"},{"start":44650.728,"end":44678.544,"text":"宣讀95-1案主決議賴清德總統任台南市長時曾主張中央不該集權又集錢故行政院不應擴張解釋對地方政府補助總額雖不便卻企圖主導調整對縣市政府補助金額甚至還要將明年的一般性補助款改為申請制根本違背賴前市長中央不該集權又集錢的主張"},{"start":44679.304,"end":44704.737,"text":"原此114年度中央政府總預算案追加預算案對各地方一般性補助款不得少於去年的編列預算數行政院因為追加預算完成三讀後立即將追加這一般性補助款如附表撥付各地方政府避免延宕施政推動委員傅坤祺 柯建銘 黃國昌 吳思瑤羅志強 王宏維 張祺凱陳昭芝 陳培瑜宣讀完畢"},{"start":44709.332,"end":44719.885,"text":"好 謝謝各位都已經看到三個黨團的幹部都有簽署的組決議另外一個組決議目前還有兩個政黨還沒有簽署好 我們照案通過"},{"start":44727.103,"end":44745.735,"text":"第二個案現在正在簽署 我們先唸一下讓大家來進一步了解這個案可能請主計長要說明一下可不可以第二個主決議因為我們主計長的意見我們要參查一下歡迎 請啊 哪一位要說明請主計長您現在沒有文字稿 您說明沒問題啊請"},{"start":44748.946,"end":44773.805,"text":"這個部分就是說要維持現行一般補助款分配的方式不得改為比照計劃性補助這個部分因為為什麼因為我們如果說按照我們現在分配那個統籌分配稅款分配4100多億給地方那按照地質法的規定有一些基本的支出都應該要歸為地方去負擔好這個部分那所以我們變成是說我們如果不是"},{"start":44774.885,"end":44795.514,"text":"計劃型補助款就是要刪一般性裡面的所以我們原則上如果不是我們要維持一般性補助款就得刪計劃型但是我們計劃型有很多重要的一個計劃我們也是不想刪減所以我們是希望說雙方面都維持但是把一些譬如說原來基本的一些設施設備"},{"start":44797.655,"end":44824.554,"text":"改由地方去負擔然後我們計劃型的補助把它移到一般性補助來然後仍然維持它的一個計劃這樣子因為以我們來講以現在我們做這兩個不刪減某一個我們就是會超過舉債的一個額度我們現在舉債4000億已經達到13%點多那如果說再加上去不刪減計劃型的部分"},{"start":44825.154,"end":44846.261,"text":"就會超過但是我們也希望說計劃型某些部分是可以維持所以我們做了一些調整的方式把計劃型移到普遍比較具普遍性多多縣市性的一個計劃型把它移到一般性補助來然後把一些基本設施應該是地方負擔的部分把它轉到地方去負擔是這樣子客人說你補充一下意見嗎"},{"start":44854.395,"end":44856.757,"text":"這個要修法的嘛 不應該用組結來處理吧副總長這一定要修法"},{"start":44864.39,"end":44887.351,"text":"這個解決方案就是一定要去趕快去修地方自治法啦你現在就是說錢下去之後你有些業務要移交對不對可是你怎麼移交要轉到地方去也不是中央馬上自己片面就決定對 因為他們跟地方趕快徵詢他們的意見大家多溝通 然後開個公聽會溝通完之後趕快提修法啦 好不好這樣來做法才是正解啦"},{"start":44887.751,"end":44907.644,"text":"所以目前為今之計我們大概只能先修一般性補助辦法不是你現在就是要去改那個補助辦法之前你要先去把地方自治法把那些哪些事情你是要移撥到地方去做的地方自治法本來就有規定的規定譬如說像國中小那些業務是屬於地方自治的一個"},{"start":44908.344,"end":44924.809,"text":"不是啦你目前已經有一套規範嘛那你現在就是因為有四千多億要下去對不對你才發現這個這樣已經沒辦法原來規範有問題嘛所以才說要地方自治法你趕快把哪些業務是要到地方的你要趕快弄清楚我在強調第一個要趕快溝通第二個你不要片面的這個自己做決定"},{"start":44925.569,"end":44936.061,"text":"你要跟地方 要聽地方的意見那好了以後大家兩邊都合議了嘛 對不對然後趕快來修這個法例如說合議完之後很快就可以通過啦這主席暫時不要注意啦我要再次強調喔我想主席長"},{"start":44941.227,"end":44958.462,"text":"其實如果按照現在藍白硬要通過的新版財化法去修其實地方拿到的錢已經比之前都還要多了那剛剛張啟凱委員自己也說如果您認為修地質法是重要之前在修財化法的時候民進黨團就一直提醒要搭配修法但是你們硬不要嘛那所以現在"},{"start":44959.202,"end":44974.473,"text":"如果你們真的覺得出現困難那我們就要問本來很多事情它就是應該屬於地方的那只是過去中央給予補助可是現在營業稅的部分地方拿回去了然後還多增加統籌分配稅款那我想就是如同張信凱委員說說的如果你認為相關的法要修那我講我們就來好好討論不過我要再次強調錢到地方來還是變多了而且比之前還要多非常非常多來到史上新高謝謝"},{"start":44987.216,"end":44990.757,"text":"我覺得現在不要再來演講比賽還是造謠大賽主席總署他本來就一套計畫型的補助辦法"},{"start":45014.693,"end":45032.922,"text":"但主計長每次都是倒果為因在搭配旁邊幫腔開始唱戲把一件很明確的事情都要把它扭曲顛倒一般性補助本來就不得低於前一年這立法已經通過"},{"start":45035.666,"end":45064.782,"text":"那結果通過了以後 主計長去扣去扣了各縣市的一般性補助款這就很不應該我們今天坐在這裡審查就是要把不應該扣的錢還給地方第二個計畫型補助款本來就依照各級政府的財政五級財政最差的好像雲林也是五級財政就是補助五成 補助九十趴"},{"start":45066.403,"end":45090.881,"text":"一級的財政它的補助%數就沒有這麼多那它現在通知各縣市政府五級財政本來補助90%現在變50%等於乾坤大挪移把一般性補助款給地方統籌分配款給地方又挪到計劃型補助這裡來我覺得主計長一天到晚在想"},{"start":45092.133,"end":45121.398,"text":"怎麼樣啊把立法院通過的法律再從地方政府的口袋再掏回來就是不好好開大門走大路事情沒在吃飯啦這個應該是你應該要去召集各縣市政府跟國會來座談全責分配哪一些歸給地方政府"},{"start":45123.117,"end":45149.728,"text":"哪一些中央繼續來沉坐要經過協商而不是你現在一直命令告訴他你現在就是怎麼樣那你不是要打臉立法院嗎主席長你不只是不善溝通你是完全不溝通啊很不應該啊這麼簡單的事情又在這裡要開始演講比賽"},{"start":45151.67,"end":45176.635,"text":"各縣市政府都到立法院來抗議計劃型補助本來補助九成的現在直接刪到變五成又是立法委員搞的這個實在我們一天到晚背這些事情主席長你為什麼不能好好良善的跟大家來溝通呢有什麼是不能溝通的呢有什麼困難就把總帳攤出來嘛"},{"start":45179.224,"end":45202.473,"text":"對不對 地方從25 統籌分配款25%給地方現在升為35費省以後你也沒有把所有的業務都接回去也沒有所有業務都在中央 很多還在地方政府這個算盤可以大家拿出來算嘛但是你不能每次用強壓式的 一直公為下去"},{"start":45204.554,"end":45233.156,"text":"你應該好好召集中央政府之資召集各縣市政府應該好好大家坐下來責任分工哪一些業務以後歸屬地方哪一些業務中央持續來運作這才是正辦嘛所以這個決議為什麼要通過這個修法一點關係都沒有嘛要修什麼法分工好大家就好了嘛"},{"start":45236.82,"end":45258.608,"text":"好 謝謝副總召的發言第二個決議案目前向各位黨團幹部報告第一個決議案三個黨團都有簽第二個決議案目前只有國民黨跟台灣民眾黨團簽民進黨團沒有簽署所以這個案子"},{"start":45259.828,"end":45286.118,"text":"不予處理 現在有一個協商結論草稿先請議事的原則發下去 讓我念完這草稿裡面有一個處理的原則我先請財政委員會的專門委員說明一下再來 處理的原則沒有意見的話我會再來念一下協商結論的本文如果大家都同意 我們來簽字我們先把這個重要部分先處理 好不好要發言委員 我們回頭再發言 來 請"},{"start":45289.278,"end":45306.295,"text":"黨團協商中央政府114年中央政府總預算最佳預算案之處理原則一協商順序為先行討論通案決議再依審查報告所列款項募結提案順序討論這個第一點我們其實已經知道這是預留明天如果有表決的話"},{"start":45307.196,"end":45326.854,"text":"那第二點是通案提案三檢科目相同者目前就只有媒體政策業務宣導費就是一併處理目前有123案還有財政部保留的55案這個到時候都一起去表決或是一起處理"},{"start":45327.995,"end":45353.233,"text":"那如果說那個通案第一案全檢的過的話原則上那個後面的55案就不要再處理了就是過了一案其他案都併在一起不再處理那各提案另外就是各提案就是我們今天通過的各提案的三檢數加計明天如果那個通案全三過的話不得超過該主管或該機關編列的最佳預算案數就是不超過他的預算數"},{"start":45355.123,"end":45384.383,"text":"那第三點是目前我們的處理方式是從同一個計劃幕或節是一起處理的那另外就是同一個計劃我們剛剛大部分處理方式都是以最高為原則那現在目前保留的是文化部文化部主管整個都保留所以如果說他第一案就是金額最高的已經全刪完那就以最高金額為準那後面的案子就不再處理"},{"start":45385.924,"end":45399.263,"text":"對然後那另外就是目前有幾個案子都是以主管別簡列的預算書提案目前如果說那些案子都通過的話那就請科目請他們自行調整"},{"start":45401.823,"end":45427.968,"text":"然後另外最後就是今天的案子如果說有凍結案子然後但是他同時檢列檢列數包括那個聯席會的檢列數如果加起來譬如說他凍結30%那委員會那個審查會凍結跟檢列跟我們剛剛檢列的比例超過的話原則上他凍結就是剩下的金額或比例以上"},{"start":45430.358,"end":45439.015,"text":"如果剛才財政委員會的專委所念的原則如果沒有意見的話我就開始來念一下我們今天黨團的協商結論請各位傾聽一下"},{"start":45444.586,"end":45460.256,"text":"時間114年8月28日星期四下午8點協商主題延長114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案相關事宜協商結論達成三點共識一 協商通過內容含出的原則及保留部分如後付"},{"start":45461.354,"end":45479.437,"text":"於照聯席會議審查結果通過 由財政委員會整理 送各黨團確認之後於8月29號星期五上午8點30分前送議事處二 本案於院會進行處理時 非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過"},{"start":45480.734,"end":45505.396,"text":"保留部分均暫保留保留部分進行處理前由台灣民眾黨團推派一位民進黨團推派一位國民黨團推派一位依上開黨團順序發言每位委員發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢之後各保留提案均不再發言即開始進行保留部分之表決"},{"start":45507.113,"end":45527.386,"text":"本案經二讀的內容請主席總署與財政委員會核對刪減項目及金額共願會進行三讀三 本案完成三讀之後不進行三讀後的發言各黨團同意不提出複議本次協商各項提議均與刊登公報記錄請問各黨團對這三點協商的結論有異議沒請"},{"start":45542.248,"end":45570.829,"text":"是那個多的不協商的案子等一下 院長有關於這個勞動部齁勞動關稅的業務剛才部長有講說希望228萬 9千萬能夠保留100萬給他們那這部分我跟黃莊委員去試案我跟黃莊委員提過他說是不是可以同意"},{"start":45578.655,"end":45599.873,"text":"剛休息的時候柯建民總召他其實是用非常懇切的心態好好的針對這個案子進行說明因為我這個人基本上是很講道理的柯總召都用這麼懇切的心態做部長該做的事情"},{"start":45601.141,"end":45620.533,"text":"那總召講的我覺得啦對柯總召來講你最近這段時間也辛苦啦承受非常大的壓力那既然柯總召都已經開了金口做這麼懇切的說明所以就按照剛剛柯總召所建議的金額就是留100萬給他請"},{"start":45629.543,"end":45642.082,"text":"這個陳如我剛剛對衛福部的這個邱太元邱部長的臨別感言也是一樣我覺得今天院長辛苦了晚上一點多了不過另外一位也是很辛苦"},{"start":45643.79,"end":45661.836,"text":"這個本來明天要幫我們柯總召辦歡送會的他現在又留了一為了拼這100萬他讓我們感動了所以國民黨欣然同意態度這麼懇切我們現在重新宣告第74項勞動部勞動關係業務簡列128萬9千元我們存保留100萬元台灣民眾黨能提我們保留100萬"},{"start":45675.21,"end":45677.961,"text":"請各位黨團幹部開始簽字簽字完畢之後"},{"start":45679.124,"end":45701.833,"text":"他簽完 都已經簽完我都簽好了是不是 好好好這我明天再簽第二張 第二張 都簽完了然後趁院長要簽你這個簽 簽念完就這個簽那個 各位黨人幹部我們明天上午院會九點半報告事項處理完畢之後我們會休息針對外交部提供的資料還有當日院會討論事項我們進行溝通現在 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頻道商 OTT業者 網際網路甚至未來還有AI的發展每一個其實都是非常龐大而且非常多元的一個面貌NCC在這中間的角度我個人的看法你就應該要維持最基本的市場公平性不能偏廢任何一方但也不能給任何一方諸多的限制跟壓力而導致於它的競爭力受限"},{"start":281.917,"end":299.253,"text":"有一句話也說得很好生命自然會找到出路我們維持一個最基本的一個公平性讓各自尋求發展自然市場業者自然市場民眾就會用他自己手中的遙控器來決定後續的發展以及最後"},{"start":300.274,"end":312.23,"text":"社會責任的參與主動性我想這一點是在於最近這段時間看到7月6號的颱風而造成一個多月南部的風災南部的風災當時我們記得通訊"},{"start":316.555,"end":342.004,"text":"這個行動業者是由NCC管理的但是過去一個月了還有南部的鄉親他是沒有行動網路的長達一個月的斷訊我記得當時我在這邊來質詢NCC的代理主委的時候他一個月後才跟我們講是說他們會開會來討論什麼時候可以啟動緊急的漫遊讓地方民眾能夠回復通訊一個多月過去"},{"start":343.004,"end":366.79,"text":"我當時更希望的是不要因人設施定出標準也許之前我們沒有看到因為颱風而造成通訊的一個狀況但是既然現在有這樣的狀況定出一個標準未來什麼樣的範圍多少互通訊失聯以及多少的基地台沒有辦法發揮功能的時候就應該啟動所謂的互用衛星"},{"start":367.89,"end":389.228,"text":"漫遊啟動的一個狀況而不是因人設施否則我們如果說有這樣的一個制度或這樣的一個SOP的話就不會看到當總統下鄉去視察災民的時候講出那個經典名句郭國文的可以啊其他的不行啊所以不要因人設施也不要因為"},{"start":391.055,"end":416.361,"text":"沒有影響影響少而不理他或者說不要因為今天新聞多新聞淡而有行政機關不同的一個標準我想這也是政府部門應該要做的非常重要的一點簡單來說三大期待對於嚴守獨立機關的專業性對於新聞自由言論自由跟市場的公平性還有社會責任的參與主動性"},{"start":416.961,"end":441.863,"text":"這是我期待未來NCC的委員能夠負起責任的我們一樣專業審查嚴格把關適任的合理的名單我們絕對沒有阻攬的理由但如果說不適任的或者是大家外界普遍認為他是不符合NCC獨立機關期待的話我們也會勇敢的投下反對票但最重要的是行政部門應該要"},{"start":444.105,"end":456.444,"text":"積極的提名真的符合大家所期待的NCC委員讓我們國家持續往前邁進台灣是我們共同的所以我們一起努力希望讓我們國家越來越好感謝"}]}},{"id":"163729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d7476f111b149569ea0137d14ae0167c2aa73be9beff75c7d81f0509819ccb48bc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:28:33 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紅夢凱委員還有在場的各位專家學者 早安那今天針對行政院長所提出的NCC四位委員的這個提名呢本黨呢 提出了一個適任性的質疑跟一個深切的關注 以下分別針對的蔣榮鮮 陳明修黃薇薇跟羅惠文四位"},{"start":29.373,"end":34.798,"text":"被提名人的背景及可能的利益衝突來提出台灣民眾黨對於NCC委員資格的公正職責的立場跟訴求首先提名作為主任委員的蔣榮鮮教授他在資訊科技專業當中卓越"},{"start":48.371,"end":53.174,"text":"那長期也參與到產學的合作涵蓋到製造業電信業跟醫療的服務業那他在學術及工部門的研究是這個為主但是缺乏了直接跟廣電或通訊監理實務的這樣的經驗那我們的疑慮有下面的"},{"start":67.742,"end":92.051,"text":"其協助了數百家的這個企業做數位轉型也涵蓋了多數的這個NCC監理的產業對象那監理跟產業輔導角色呢利益是交錯著可能影響對業者的這個監理的嚴格控管那蔣教授呢他應該主動的在說明是否曾有私人利益往來要避免私人立場衝突"},{"start":94.392,"end":119.787,"text":"此外在集資訊科技專長若過於技術導向的時候也可能會忽略到傳播產業多元利益跟他的政策平衡那再下來我們看看的是副主委的被提名人陳明修教授他是我在東吳大學的法律系的這個同事同時他在公開資料當中顯示出來他是登記為是中國國民黨籍"},{"start":120.928,"end":128.393,"text":"那我們知道這部分是沒有看到說政黨有直接利益關係那他也沒有直接參與過通訊的這個跟媒體的這個產業不過他在多個政府部會跟製造業擔任職務那也包括擔任獨立董事"},{"start":137.358,"end":157.516,"text":"那他擔任的兩家公司是製造業如果他就任那兩家公司如果未來涉及到在交通通訊模組等領域跟NCC監理業務存在的利益的這種交叉關係的時候呢他應該事先的要揭露他說明並避免要利益的這樣的衝突"},{"start":159.638,"end":172.633,"text":"黃薇薇教授長期服務於廣播跟影視媒體董事會跟諮詢委員會尤其她是現任的遠東廣播公司的董事並承認華視跟NCC等監理單位的監理對象的職位"},{"start":179.261,"end":207.952,"text":"他的多項的限職跟媒體業者的密切利益他也曾經參與過NCC委託的研究案跟政策的制定亦被質疑說成為業者的門神所以可能會影響到監理公正第四位羅惠文教授他曾任華視及公共電視的董事並長期的擔任新唐人亞太電視倫理委員會的主任"},{"start":209.187,"end":233.555,"text":"還有多重媒體董事會職務引發利益衝突的疑慮那他直接參與NCC的政策調查跟產業的監理研究造成自己規劃自己執行有這樣的疑慮會產生那如果沒有辦法在審查時嚴格的揭露他的利益跟管控的狀況他監理的公信力也恐怕會送損"},{"start":234.975,"end":254.336,"text":"那台灣民眾黨的這個立場是非常明確的行政院呢他刻意延誤了NCC的委員的這個提名也放任NCC的這個長期懸缺導致的監管失能那故意的延遲到這個7月底大罷免結束第一端結束後才送出在近半年"},{"start":255.177,"end":266.089,"text":"媒體特意帶風向朝政治明顯操作的時候呢造謠抹黑在野黨不盡其術那NCC他自己就使得他自己獨立的這個監管形象"},{"start":267.737,"end":290.632,"text":"總括而言呢對這次本行政院所提出來的名單那有提出的以下不適應的理由最主要在於四位學者他們都是學術跟法律的背景出身那或者是與媒體監理對象關係密切且多於業者有私人職位上的關係將影響客觀中立尤其是羅惠文教授他承認進電視新聞台籌備期間的新聞自律委員會倫理委員會的主任"},{"start":298.538,"end":319.298,"text":"政策執行跟監理角色的重疊這一次的提名他忽略了媒體管理及產業治理的實務政策的能力存在的隱憂提名程序也不公開 多為政治考量他會損及到NCC獨立的專業形象民眾黨在這邊就呼籲"},{"start":320.399,"end":347.189,"text":"第一個NCC的委員應該嚴守法定的資格跟公正職責不符資格會有利益衝突的應該主動的來撤回那個提名那第二點NCC他應該恢復獨立公正監理的功能針對假新聞媒體所有權透明還有境外資金監管的問題提出具體的方法來守護民主言論自由跟資訊的安全"},{"start":348.724,"end":368.19,"text":"第三點 在委員會當委員他應該具備跨領域的產業實務經驗並來維持政治中立 避免跟政黨有利益干預 監理決策第四點 NCC的提名跟監理過程應該要透明有公眾參與的情形 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張婦人市長"},{"start":1659.997,"end":1688.334,"text":"其位即介紹列席代表請參院名單不再足以介紹並列入公報記錄本次會議議程討論事項二案分別為第一案繼續並案審查考試院函請審議公務人員考積法第十二條條文修正草案等五案及第二案委員吳宗憲等十七人凝聚政務人員行為基準法草案會議程序依例先進行"},{"start":1689.363,"end":1715.784,"text":"提案說明及報告先由我這邊進行提案說明我現在先是說明第二案的政務人員行為基準法的提案說明我這邊提出來的專法的草案政務人員行為基準法明文規範政務人員在行政中立"},{"start":1717.16,"end":1739.113,"text":"跟行為標準希望透過這部專法來回應民眾對於政府公平跟專業的期待因為這段時間我們發現實務上面許多政務人員在配合執政黨在搞他的罷免他並不是在一個中立的角色或者是在上班時間也在辦公室"},{"start":1740.074,"end":1766.549,"text":"或是在上班時間用不祥的設備在網路上面發言或是在不應該的場合譬如說公務的記者會在搞他的選舉造勢等等的或是利用下鄉宣講的時候在那邊宣傳假的預算訊息然後來為罷免天才火所以這段時間我們看到的就是政務人員毫無中立可言"},{"start":1767.909,"end":1792.684,"text":"這個法其實並不是我們這一屆雖然才提出來的一個全新的草案但是事實上在30年前的民國84年還有後來的98年101年考試院都曾經分別提出草案來討論尤其是101年的版本更是我這一部草案的版本所依據的版本"},{"start":1794.193,"end":1819.948,"text":"這個部分我們也會以行政人員行政中立中國人員的行政中立為主軸那我們看一下年初的這段時間我們實務上面發生了很多事情例如說外交部長外交部說護照快要發布出來硬扯到是預算的預算被刪結果呢原來是他自己去年對於護照數量的評估錯誤"},{"start":1821.567,"end":1841.796,"text":"他只印了180萬本這個預算凍結完全沒有關係那內政部長我已經提出告發了內政部長說租金補貼10月或11月會用光說是立法院三預算害的但是查證租金補貼有414.67億凍結只有40多億占不到十分之一更沒有所謂的刪除的問題"},{"start":1846.943,"end":1865.383,"text":"我們的行政院長在大罷免期間到處去宣講到處上電視講到處公開的講說三減地方補助款不是報復是輪迴還扯說屏東兩位立委當初表決時支持中央的立委"},{"start":1866.304,"end":1883.901,"text":"是誰支持預算就優先給講出這種話完全不像是中華民國的行政院院長像是特定政黨的護航者很多委員也大筆的酸預算我們的院長指控說大筆酸預算不支持中央"},{"start":1884.915,"end":1898.216,"text":"那因為委員不支持中央所以院長如何支持地方像這種話都不應該說的一個院長是中華民國院長應該以全民福祉為主但是他卻以黨的政治利益為優先"},{"start":1899.895,"end":1923.851,"text":"然後再來又說普發現金條例是預算案違憲然後拒絕編列給軍警加急的預算謊稱說申請暫時處分就可以停止法律的執行這公然在造謠行政院院長公然在造謠大搞他的政治活動他忘記自己領的是人民的薪水該為人民做事而不是配合民進黨那邊搞政治鬥爭"},{"start":1925.123,"end":1937.21,"text":"什麼時候申請暫時處分可以自行決定就不編列不執行我國哪一個制度有這樣全世界哪一個國家制度這樣這只會存在專制極權國家"},{"start":1940.411,"end":1964.328,"text":"所以我想行政院長是代表行政院依據憲法受立法院監督執行法律不應該自己擔任是大法官自己宣告是不是有違憲或自己宣告能不能執行行政中立是執政的ABC現在變成各自解讀我們只剩下能夠對於這些政務人員道德要求了已經沒有其他可以要求他們"},{"start":1965.589,"end":1981.094,"text":"但是這段時間我們看到的是民進黨的很多大官們為了政黨的利益完全不專業治國完全不理會民生需求不斷地踩紅線違反行政中立把整個國家把整個國家的人民拉進去一起政治鬥爭"},{"start":1983.629,"end":2012.731,"text":"我們更不能容許這個政府已經延宕了30年了還對於政務人員的中立完全無作為我想有法規才能發揮監督的力道我們不可能只在這邊奢求政務人員自己有道德感然後自己約束自己的行為所以我們覺得行政官要遵守行政中立不能留在口號或是道德的約束我們希望國家更往前面走"},{"start":2014.878,"end":2036.786,"text":"最後我想要提到的就是我自己在這個國家擔任公務員已經25年了我擔任過政務官我也擔任過常任文官我非常清楚公務員體系是健全國家發展的最根本然後如果政務官不中立帶著下屬那這些事務官拋下專業跟著一起政治鬥爭"},{"start":2037.586,"end":2061.92,"text":"那這個政府治理絕對會瓦解而且這些國家的資源一定會流向特定政黨或支持特定政黨的利益團體那這些年來的綠能弊案包括昨天發生前天發生那個小英男孩的那個綠能蟑螂的問題這個問題就是鐵針針的事實還敢跟國人嗆敢跟司法人員嗆知道我背後是誰嗎"},{"start":2063.374,"end":2089.537,"text":"這是荒謬 荒謬至極所以我今天今天是本會期的最後一次司法法治委員會也是我最後一次擔任召委所以我提出這個專法是我對於整個公務體系的期許不要再讓這些權責機關立法帶墮不要一旦發生了政黨輪替就血流成河整個體系人員全換掉整個國家又再空轉"},{"start":2090.666,"end":2113.478,"text":"因為行政以及公務員應該是一體的不管今天誰執政國家都要一貫的走下去而不是今天執政就大換血如果執政就大換血國家只會空轉國家沒有未來也請各位多多支持 謝謝我們接著進行機關報告每位發言時間三分鐘首先我們先請考試院祕書長 劉祕書長報告"},{"start":2121.747,"end":2139.936,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安感謝貴委員會長期來對本院施政跟中大法案的支持跟協助也感謝昭緯兩度排審考記法第十二條的修正今天也很榮幸在列席貴委員會就吳昭緯等十七位委員所拟據的政務人員行為基準法的草案提出書面報告"},{"start":2141.136,"end":2167.339,"text":"有關這個案子在考試院的立法歷程就是它始於貴院在審議84年度的中央政府總預算時做了一個附帶決議就是要求考試院應該在一年之內將政務官法函送立法院審查此後本院在87年到101年當中有五次的把政務人員法草案送到立法院來審議但是都因為借其不續審而沒有完成立法程序"},{"start":2168.3,"end":2189.505,"text":"在這個之後 權序部曾經在108年把這個草案送到本院考試院來審議不過當時在審查會上 行政院這邊也提出說有關政務人員人事法治事項的主管機關究竟應該是考試院還是行政院這樣的疑義因為事涉兩院的職權分際所以本院就請權序部跟相關機關持續協調待有共識後再行處理"},{"start":2190.525,"end":2216.967,"text":"後續雖然這個法並沒有未能持續推動但是政務人員的行為規範的事項其實已經也散見在各現行法令當中例如公務員服務法有經商投資的限制的規定也有規範公務員執行職務的時候應該要公正無私不得有損害公務員名譽或者是政府信譽的行為也不能假借權利圖利本身或他人的利益或者是加損害於他人"},{"start":2218.348,"end":2247.54,"text":"非營職務需要不得動用行政資源等所以另外在公務人員行政中立法第14條第一項也規定長官不得要求公務人員從事該法所禁止的行為另外刑法第121條也有公務人員收受賄賂罪的規範但是如果貴院委員認為有制定專法以整合相關規範的必要本院也敬表尊重以上報告敬請委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請全序部政次報告"},{"start":2252.213,"end":2278.183,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先先大家早安首先全序部感謝大院委員在我們部裡面所送的相關人事法律能夠予以支持跟通過其實我們就今天所凝聚的政務人員行為基礎法案作二要重點報告第一個現行政務人員的行為規範相關法律規範目前政務人員的行為規範雖然沒有一個專法來規範但是分散在我們現行的公務員"},{"start":2279.603,"end":2293.94,"text":"那個服務法跟公務員懲戒法相關部分都有相關的適用那另外雖然說那個政務人員本身不適用行政中立法但是依照憲法或法律規範還有要獨立行使職權的相關公務員他有需要準用行政中立法"},{"start":2294.5,"end":2318.86,"text":"那麼其餘的政務人員包括地方民選政務首長等等雖然他是依照政治任命跟民主權利產生那也是依照政黨政策來進退跟常任公務員的性質不一樣並不是行政中立法的主要對象但是如果他是屬於公務員的長官的話仍然要符合行政中立法第十四條規定不得要求公務人員來執行行政中立法所禁止的相關行為"},{"start":2319.801,"end":2348.516,"text":"那陳善與政務人員的行為相關事項目前法律也有相關規範而且持續行止多年那麼如果委員今天的行賄法認為有專法明確訂定的必要那部裡面定表尊重另外這個本草案有關於是不是關於利用職權圖利自己或他人的相關行為那這些部分對於地方民選行政首長到底要不要一律列入本法規範那是不是應該要加入那這請在審查的時候予以審酌"},{"start":2349.617,"end":2370.397,"text":"第二個部分關於政務人員的法制主管機關的部分因為政務人員的活動的樣態很多我們考試院的部分基本上是屬於文官法制比較靜態的部分行政院也是限定最高行政機關也向大院負責政務人員金融人數也是以行政院跟所屬的中央機關還有地方政府是占絕大多數"},{"start":2371.198,"end":2391.182,"text":"那因此我們會認為政務人員行為的相關動態管理是比較適合由行政院來更為適合的管理機關那五委員召委所提的相關實質內容那主要是規範跟行政中立法跟政務跟公務人員服務法的相關內容是是意思是相同那本部競表尊重"},{"start":2391.582,"end":2412.387,"text":"那其中關於第三條第五款跟第六款的部分他對於關於投資跟金三禁止是比是參照在修法前的公務員符法相關規定是更為嚴格的規範那本部尊重大院在審查時候的決定那如果討論的時候本部再來就相關的規定或必要來提供相關的意見共參"},{"start":2414.287,"end":2433.398,"text":"結語 本草案是建立公務人 政務人員的行為準則跟法制出發點本部並表尊重 那審查時如果有那個相關槌尋本部會議加以說明共參考 以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝次長 那下一位我們請張政務副人事長報告"},{"start":2443.895,"end":2469.853,"text":"召委各位委員大家早安任總書非常感謝各位委員會能夠請我們來列席這次的會議有關於今天要審議的考機法第12條求證條文草案的部分我們在8月14號有提出書面的意見我們沒有新的意見就跟上次提的相同"},{"start":2471.594,"end":2499.375,"text":"至於有關於吳昭偉等委員所提的政務人員行為基準法草案就如同剛剛這個全局部次長有報告的就是現在他雖然沒有專法的規範只是散見在各個相關的這個公務員法規包括這個公務員的行政中立法包括公務員服務法"},{"start":2500.656,"end":2525.855,"text":"包括公務員選舉罷免法等等的相關這個他的行為應該遵守的規範是散見在各相關的法規那剛剛懷智仰大概有提到就是過去這段時間也一直在討論所謂的這個政務人員的法制應該由誰來負責這個部分"},{"start":2529.958,"end":2548.287,"text":"那跟委員會報告現在的政務人員如果以去年底這個全序統計的資料是487個人全國大概有487個人那他的分佈大概是中央機關是220個那地方機關是267個"},{"start":2554.23,"end":2582.069,"text":"如果以這個它的這個隸屬的範圍來講的確是大部分是在行政院跟所屬的中央跟地方機關所以在這個如果大家有共識對於這個政務人員的行為要立專法這件事情我們行政院也願意來提出法案以上"},{"start":2588.545,"end":2591.769,"text":"好 謝謝請問一下其餘書面報告機關有沒有要口頭補充好"},{"start":2593.601,"end":2619.611,"text":"沒有的話就案代表報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答由於詢答後我們接續會進行法案的審查所以我們一例本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員為4分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員進行詢答"},{"start":2632.878,"end":2653.031,"text":"謝謝主席 在開始進行詢問以前我大概有個會議程序上面的事項可能也是詢問 可能也是建議因為剛剛聽到考試院的秘書長報告說這個法律案其實考試院那邊本來有準備早就要送來審議了"},{"start":2654.95,"end":2681.884,"text":"結果行政院有意見搶著行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關那如果行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關顯然行政院對這個法有非常強烈的意見有非常強烈的意見那既然行政院搶著要當主管機關攸關本法的行政機關到底應該是由考試院還是行政院我建議"},{"start":2683.314,"end":2703.981,"text":"接下來處理法案的時候請行政院派有代表權的人來因為行政院搶著要當主管機關嘛那你行政院就要來這邊把你的立場講清楚嘛因為行政院搶著當主管機關認為針對有關於政務人員行為基準法他們應該有發言的權利"},{"start":2710.152,"end":2734.439,"text":"似乎看起來也沒有排斥這個法有立法的必要但是我們看到過去行政院特別是行政院的政務官從閣員到次長剛剛我聽秘書長講還有考試院的書面報告說公務員服務法裡面有一些規範"},{"start":2736.058,"end":2764.778,"text":"政務人員他們也有遵守譬如說其中服務法鎖定應該謹慎發言那我就看不懂啦如果這個法對政務人員有適用的話那過去這段時間我們行政院的這些閣員有謹慎發言嗎可以指責在野黨的立委說你吃台灣米做中國鬼嗎可以在臉書上面說"},{"start":2766.732,"end":2787.783,"text":"726大罷免沒有成功要繼續剿匪嗎這是哪門子謹慎發言這種問題可能要考試院回答他們也很尷尬不敢得罪當道等一下我如果上來是問這種問題只是讓考試院尷尬不敢得罪當道有辦法回答這種問題的恐怕"},{"start":2790.114,"end":2809.4,"text":"可能要請現在賴著不下台的卓榮瀚行政院派一個有代表權的來要不然這個法案要怎麼審光主管機關就炒不完了這個是我在針對這個法案要進行實質審查以前給召委的一個建議如果今天要進行實質逐條的審查我也支持"},{"start":2810.718,"end":2834.863,"text":"看等一下是不是請議事人員 等一下法案進行主條的時候 請卓榮泰趕快派一個代表來好 謝謝主席那個 跟黃委員報告 就有關這個部分就之前有思考過 那我也了解說 考試院希望這個行政院出來 希望當作這個主管機關 但是我自己思考過幾個問題啊我還是相信我國有權力分立啦 雖然"},{"start":2835.883,"end":2864.095,"text":"雖然現在事務上似乎看起來我國權力分立這是一個幌子完全違反孟德斯鳩的概念當行政權跟立法權以及那個考試權行政權跟立法權以及司法權結合的時候他帶來就是專制這孟德斯鳩講的那專制的原理是什麼就是恐怖其實台灣就是走向這樣但是我還是相信可能我們還是有權力分立那依照現在的制度上面我們公務員"},{"start":2865.902,"end":2886.047,"text":"不是我再回答問題王委員我再回答我剛有說我跟黃委員報告他剛剛我跟你講你還沒進來之前他已經說他是會議詢問所以我現在再跟他回答王委員請不要干擾議事謝謝我也很尊重你的我很尊重王委員的王委員我很尊重你的"},{"start":2887.677,"end":2906.739,"text":"我再回答他問題 我回答他問題要經過你同意嗎王委員 請問一下我回答其他委員的問題 需要王委員你這位大人同意嗎我跟你講 如果你不你要不要"},{"start":2908.953,"end":2936.07,"text":"我跟你講 王委員 王委員如果你要這樣子要要求我們開會每個人時間到時候都停請你問問你們的陳培宇 你們吳思瑤我是不是都讓大家把他講完我是不是都讓大家盡量講完王一川你幹了沒有 尊重主席王一川請你尊重主席王委員 如果你不懂議事規則請回去把議事規則搞清楚"},{"start":2940.185,"end":2956.053,"text":"王逸川 你去約束你們民進黨的人也要預時好不好你要不要去看看你們貴黨的陳培委員 吳孝偉我有沒有干擾他們我都讓他們把話講完你去當你的 你去當民進黨的召委你來主持會議啦你下個會請就當召委嘛好不好"},{"start":2965.458,"end":2974.699,"text":"我跟你講啦在這邊跟你吵架是拉低我們自己的格調不用在國會吵架給全國人民看這是拉低我們的格調但是我跟你說"},{"start":2976.366,"end":3005.715,"text":"黃委員今天黃委員在議事詢問的話我就會回答他的問題如果你等一下有問題要問我請你到台上來你到台上來之後我也會回答你的問題其他我跟你講不用多說了你在講什麼我覺得今天會議是我主持如果你對議事的主持這麼有興趣麻煩你下一任當召委你來制止我們講話我OK我沒有意見嘛那今天在這邊麻煩各委員會有各委員會的做法"},{"start":3006.195,"end":3021.654,"text":"你去看從這一屆第十一屆第一個會期到現在我主持了三個會期我是不是都盡量讓大家講完雖然我們講八分鐘這個是訓示規定每個委員會有不同的文化有的文化"},{"start":3022.635,"end":3045.949,"text":"8分鐘一到立刻關掉麥克風但是本委員會包括莊瑞雄委員在主持他都是盡量讓大家講完除非時間真的太長了我們才會制止你可以過去看過去的VOD是不是都是這樣我不會騙你這個部分我不會說面對黃國昌讓他講個高興面對陳佩瑜就不讓他講你可以去看看過去我主持會議是不是都是公平這樣"},{"start":3047.229,"end":3065.027,"text":"如果等一下你對於會議有什麼問題歡迎你到前面來我們來問基本上王委員我對你是很尊重一直以來我對你都很尊重我們不要在這邊吵架給全國人民看我覺得這真的不好這真的降低我們國會議員彼此的格調好不好不好意思 王委員就這樣"},{"start":3067.575,"end":3079.467,"text":"我要回答你的問題你剛說要請行政院來那為什麼我今天這個沒有請行政院來雖然說行政院有說他要當主管機關因為過往我們看到的"},{"start":3080.435,"end":3099.326,"text":"不管是公務員服務法或者是一些懲戒事項或公務員的中立法等等的他的主管機關是考試院不是行政院所以我才會認為說這個體力上面的一貫應該還是由考試院來所以這就是為什麼我今天沒有請行政院來的主要原因"},{"start":3100.006,"end":3124.199,"text":"那如果當然我們在法條在那個審查的時候如果行政院要求他們要擔任主管機關的話那當然未來的審查我們可能會請行政院過來那第二個是如果今天由行政院他自己來去做那個主管機關的話我會擔心有球員兼裁判所以我剛才會提到"},{"start":3125.503,"end":3148.108,"text":"我還是相信權力分立這句話所以各位不要直接說我在發表自己的意見我現在從頭到尾在回答黃國昌委員的問題為什麼今天沒有叫行政院來行政院明明說要當主管機關我在這邊給各位的報告是我還是相信台灣有權力分立那因為權力分立之下考試院跟行政院是一樣大的"},{"start":3149.088,"end":3177.765,"text":"並沒有考試院低於行政院所以主管機關有考試院我今天才會請考試院來我想我這個是做憲政制度上面的說明絕對不是說在這邊跟大家吵架所以如果說你們覺得我對於我國憲政制度或對於五權分立我有誤解的話歡迎來打臉我我一直對於法律的論述都這樣那我也很尊重不同意見的人以上是我對黃國昌委員的回答我不知道有沒有回答到你的問題沒關係 尊重召委的安排不過我覺得行政院"},{"start":3178.908,"end":3201.49,"text":"到底搶著當主管機關是真的有要立法還是在阻礙立法沒有關係我們在審法案的時候繼續看下去要找哪一位現在是不是有請我們考試院那個麻煩考試院秘書長你要不要休息一下因為我有點擔心還是你先休息請你們那個次次長上來就好了麻煩懷次長"},{"start":3207.492,"end":3235.331,"text":"委員長市長好上一次我質詢你的時候我有問因為有警消跟我投訴他們一直有得到消息本院三讀通過的法律針對提銷警銷的所得替代率相關的部門能拖就拖 能混就混擺明就是沒有要發我上次為什麼在質詢的時候我會特別問這個問題警察人員人事條例修法"},{"start":3236.482,"end":3265.37,"text":"我們已經三讀通過 總統已經公佈了結果在整個作業的時間當中我不斷的關心到底什麼時候會處理上一次你給我回答是12月以前你們會依法執行因為現在很多事情在忙什麼電腦系統在調整但我現在已經有一點看不太清楚了現在行政院是連預算都沒有編如果連預算都沒有編的話你12月底以前要怎麼依法執行"},{"start":3266.803,"end":3293.18,"text":"你當初是知道會發生這樣的事情裝不知道在騙我嗎還是你根本就不知道因為我不會知道因為預算編列依照憲法的規定沒關係我們一條一條來你上次回給我的書面說明說你們相關的執行作業本部內政部及有關機關已經在4月29號5月16號28號6月25號及30號召開五次延伤會議就警察人員人事條例第35條規定確定立法"},{"start":3297.338,"end":3320.651,"text":"制式用原則那確立法制式用原則這五次開會的法制式用原則有說不發嗎從來沒有說不發內政部有沒有說不發那其他的有關機關有哪些機關海巡署警察大學消防署所以大家都說要發"},{"start":3321.857,"end":3349.731,"text":"我們在會上就是討論我們怎麼樣去做這件事情是啊對啊但現在問題來了根本沒有編預算要怎麼發這個就是我的問題啊這就是我的問題啊這個法律生效通過了以後我們依法論法我不跟你談政治啊我依法論法退休的景蕭依照這個法律三讀生效通過了以後對於國家是不是產生公法上的金錢請求權是還是不是"},{"start":3351.331,"end":3375.538,"text":"是嘛 這個國家的公法上金錢請求權會因為我們的政府有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎 會不會我跟委員報告 就是說有沒有編預算對不起啊 請你針對預算 請你針對我的問題回答 時間有限啊但是那個預算 我的理解 我說就我有限的理解預算支出也要有它經過預算程序通過的名目跟相關的規範"},{"start":3376.938,"end":3404.717,"text":"是啊 名目不就警察人員人事條例你剛剛也講了啊這是法律義務支出啊這退休警消對國家的公法上金錢請求權啊我剛剛問你的問題請你不要迴避喔不好意思喔請你針對我的問題回答我説明一下那條上面還有講到因此而外增加的要由政府編列預算支應啊那當然嘛法制作業上本來就如此啊但我現在問你的是公務人員對於國家"},{"start":3407.082,"end":3418.516,"text":"公法上的金錢請求權這個請求權會因為國家有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎這是基本的法律問題耶大二上過行政法的都知道耶不敢回答喔"},{"start":3420.149,"end":3437.865,"text":"蛤 現在連考試院啊都看著上億在辦事喔我跟委員報告我們部裡面立場就是把我們該做的該審查的這邊就如同沒有關係啊你們現在電腦作業什麼時候會做完我們應該在10月左右應該他就因為我們現在已經是 什麼時候會做完"},{"start":3439.42,"end":3467.279,"text":"做完了以後要不要按照你們部裡面的我先講你們部裡面的就好了你們部裡面做完以後要不要針對重新核定的退休金寄發通知給所有的景銷要還是不要什麼時候會發這個我們大概就誠如在22號答覆您的我們會在12月底以前把它完成在上次我也是這樣跟您12月底以前記得該給人家的通知要通知喔可以嗎"},{"start":3468.18,"end":3486.259,"text":"不會因為說現在沒有編預算賴清德跟卓榮泰說不給就不發通知喔這通知很重要啊因為這些退休的景銷到時候拿到通知了以後我才知道嘛接下來我如果要透過行政訴訟的方式要求國家履行這個公法上的金錢請求權"},{"start":3487.7,"end":3509.523,"text":"我才知道計算的金額是多少數字聲明要怎麼寫嘛所以站在考試院的立場不應該被政治上面所左右依法你們要核發給人家的通知依照警察人員人事條例重新核定的退休金應該要多少錢這個通知就會發出去對不對對 我們部裡面要做的事情什麼時候可以發完"},{"start":3510.573,"end":3526.331,"text":"我們就跟您報告嘛 12月底好 12月底先把它發完 下一個問題國發基金不當投資啊我上次一直在追啊 這個莫名其妙怎麼會有這麼離譜的事一個決定拿納稅人的錢去投資的人"},{"start":3527.492,"end":3554.807,"text":"結果我做了會議主席 投資完了以後自己跑去那家被投資的公司當董事我的老天啊 這明顯違反旋轉門條款我開始追這件事情的時候結果國發會給我回文 他說依照旋序部回覆並重申該部85年函釋有關旋轉門條款規定所稱職務直接相關什麼職務直接相關 避免權力濫用嘛"},{"start":3556.138,"end":3580.746,"text":"跟你職務直接相關的我現在代表國發基金 我是執行秘書我還擔任這個審查委員會的主席我決定要投資這家公司結果我跑去這家公司當董事這當然是跟職務直接相關啊這當然是跟職務直接相關啊你甚至不用念法律系啊甚至不要念一般行政啊"},{"start":3582.042,"end":3603.052,"text":"你隨便問一個有公民素養的高中生就知道這絕對職務直接相關啊結果呢 國發會說我們有發函給玄敘部玄敘部給我們的回覆說呢必須要各該營利事業的目的事業主管機關或者是離職前呢 具有營建或採購業務相關關係現在問題來了"},{"start":3607.779,"end":3622.234,"text":"公務人員服務法職務直接相關什麼時候給選區部這樣的權限 透過你們的函式把範圍限縮掉 拖曳法律規範之本質你要不要說明一下現在是什麼 官官相護嗎"},{"start":3623.251,"end":3648.631,"text":"我跟委員報告這個服務法選選條款當時就服務法第13條那因為當初第13條通過的文字在考試院院會是當時有對這個部分未來在執行應該如何執行他有做過一個更精準的一個具體怎麼樣去做處理那民國85年這個函式就是根據當時權敘部報告考試院的一個說明資料上面做了這個但是因為違反服務法基本上它有兩個效果"},{"start":3649.831,"end":3677.418,"text":"對不起先不用講效果啦我們先回到法條構成文字啦職務直接相關為什麼選區部把他限縮到這種程度這是我現在的問題因為在85年通過這個法律的時候大家認為說到底這個條文應該怎麼去執行不是啊那我就直接問你嘛今天我是國發基金的執行秘書這個投資會議我當主席通過了以後我跑去被投資的公司當董事這個是不是職務直接相關"},{"start":3678.038,"end":3692.646,"text":"我跟委員報告因為它是我職務相關會產生後面法律效果是這是由法院來決定因為後面會有將近兩年不是啊 根本不會啦按照啦你們現在做的方式不會由法院做決定啦"},{"start":3693.346,"end":3714.966,"text":"為什麼不會有法院做決定國發會就擋在前面啦用選序部的函式當靠山啊說依照選序部的函式這個沒有違反旋轉門條款啊接下來就不會發動下一步的法律程序啦來我直接給你看例子啦這有沒有違反旋轉門條款台中市公務局局長"},{"start":3716.557,"end":3742.459,"text":"結果離職以後三年內跑去一家營造廠當總經理這有沒有違反懸殊短門條款按照 你就本於你們考試院剛剛的韓氏回答我這個問題就好了有還是沒有因為我記得我們幫鼠年那個韓氏還有包括有採購關係營建關係都是所以這個案子要看他沒有採購關係也沒有營造關係這個要看這個當年他跟他之間是不是有這個沒有 我現在就跟你講沒有"},{"start":3743.6,"end":3770.698,"text":"這樣子有沒有違反旋轉門條款你們的函式沒有違反旋轉門條款為什麼因為所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部我只要不要任職經濟部就好了所有公司的主管機關都經濟部公司法規定得很清楚那代表什麼 按照你們這個函式只要不是任職經濟部或者是地方目的事業主管機關經濟局的通通不會違反旋轉門條款"},{"start":3772.659,"end":3797.505,"text":"我跟他不要有採購 不要有營造的關係但我可以跟他有什麼我可以跟他有 我事後去他公司當總經理 當董事長通通都不會違反旋轉門條款啦我為什麼提這個案子 往下看當初那個人在法院接受審判的時候他就說 依照考試院的函式我不是在目的事業主管機關耶"},{"start":3799.537,"end":3818.776,"text":"我是在公務局 我不是在經濟局而且第二個 這家公司跟我任職的台中市政府也沒有採購關係 也沒有營造關係所以沒有違反公務員服務法100% 100%就是用你們考試院的含釋來當擋箭牌"},{"start":3822.079,"end":3844.901,"text":"百分之一百就是你們用你們考試院的函式來當擋箭牌啊結果當擋箭牌最後的結果是什麼這字啊我一個字都沒改當初他在法院的時候就是用這個當擋箭牌最後的結果被法官打槍啊有罪確定被法官打槍有罪確定啊胡說八道啊把大家當笨蛋啊"},{"start":3846.11,"end":3858.283,"text":"這不是跟植物直接相關什麼是跟植物直接相關但這個是法院要認定是嘛 現在就出現問題啦為什麼考試院做了函試就法律應該有的解釋"},{"start":3859.665,"end":3878.972,"text":"什麼叫韓式法律應該有什麼解釋做正確的解釋你們的解釋被法院打臉了85年恐龍時代的韓式到2025年繼續用而且用來包庇什麼用來包庇綠油油這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討"},{"start":3880.782,"end":3898.417,"text":"法院的判決都打臉你們的韓市啦這個韓市要不要回去重新檢討這個韓市現在被拿來幹嘛被拿來在國發基金裡面胡搞瞎搞的人當擋箭牌國發基金投資的對象投資的每一家公司目的事業主管機關全部都經濟部啊絕對都不是國發會哇"},{"start":3903.16,"end":3918.191,"text":"真的是見內心喜 喜出望外我國發會愛怎麼搞怎麼搞因為這些公司的目的事業主管機關都是經濟部 不是我國發會所以按照我們考試院的函式這個都不是跟職務直接相關"},{"start":3920.114,"end":3946.782,"text":"你們考試院要不要回去重新檢討一下很丟臉欸很丟臉欸85年的韓式被法院打臉了到2025年不改繼續被拿來包庇這些胡搞瞎搞的官員當作黨箭牌考試院很閒嗎還是考試院太忙了這麼重要的韓式欸被法院判決打臉欸現在繼續被拿來當黨箭牌"},{"start":3950.097,"end":3975.415,"text":"考試院針對這個函試要不要回去重新檢討我跟委員報告喔所有每個違反服務法的被法院判決都是有很法院都有很細的調查是中間都有一些證據或什麼來沒有關係啊事實我們沒有爭執啊現在我在跟你講的是法律解釋的問題請你不要請你不要把法律解釋的問題要把它拉到事實認定的問題這個事實很清楚了啦"},{"start":3976.555,"end":3998.407,"text":"這個事實非常清楚 事實認定一點問題都沒有唯有的問題是什麼 法律解釋而這個莫名其妙的法律解釋啊是哪裡來的就從考試院來的啊就從考試院來的啊我有說錯嗎這我沒有尊重法院判決啊當然要尊重法院判決所以我才叫你回去改函式啊"},{"start":4000.022,"end":4021.732,"text":"這個韓式被法院打臉了你又說要尊重法院判決 又在那邊繼續凹這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討 要還是不要要不要回去重新檢討 要還是不要我們可以再重新檢討一下 看一下這個個案到底是怎麼樣沒有關係啊 趙偉站起來了 回去重新檢討你不用去看個案"},{"start":4022.711,"end":4048.594,"text":"你不用去看個案 你直接看你自己啊在法院的判決裡面被打臉的法律見解就好啊丟人現眼啦 丟人現眼啦85年的韓式耶 到2025年拿來變成在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人的黨建牌莫名其妙我對考試院本來還有一點尊重喔"},{"start":4049.591,"end":4074.464,"text":"如果今天考試院要幫這種在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人築起防火牆我直接跟你們講這件事情絕對沒完沒了這件事情絕對沒完沒了國發基金是納稅人的錢欸不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸國發基金是納稅人的錢不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸可以這樣搞喔"},{"start":4077.213,"end":4082.221,"text":"檢討要多少時間 一個月夠不夠檢討韓式就好了啦好沒關係來請秘書長檢討要多少時間 一個月夠不夠"},{"start":4094.242,"end":4113.114,"text":"委員讓我們回去研究一下我想85年的韓式是不是沒有關係你們需要多少時間會後書面回覆給我我不是要你回覆答案啊回覆給我說我們研究這個韓式需要多少時間接下班以前回覆給我可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們下一位請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":4123.447,"end":4144.481,"text":"有請全序部懷次長慢慢懷次長好 因為那個艱辛胸好我想說還是先讓次長好了好 我先走我先走次長我剛聽你講話 拳頭都硬起來了我本來真的對考試院很尊敬的"},{"start":4146.191,"end":4166.95,"text":"請問考試院是不是今天權虛部是不是警消我們的公交人員最大的靠山 是不是是不是 你告訴我我們是依法行政 一定會照規定來處理是不是嘛 你連你要當警消軍人公交人員的靠山這句話都講不出口我為什麼今天很生氣"},{"start":4169.102,"end":4191.834,"text":"站在這個地方 我跟吳宗憲委員 汪小林委員 跟黃國昌委員我們一路挺警消 挺軍人 我們挺了一整年終於通過警消的人事條例 提高退休保障我們提高了軍人的待遇 羅志祥挺警消 挺軍人"},{"start":4193.662,"end":4211.927,"text":"結果 民進黨 卓鴻泰 賴清德 柴錦霄 柴軍人竟然不編預算 你在這邊還護航你考試院不講話 我沒有意見啦 我知道你為難啦為什麼今天很火大 是因為你考試院竟然在這邊護航你還當什麼次長啊我告訴你啦 你不用講話 我跟你講 先聽我講完再講"},{"start":4222.659,"end":4250.331,"text":"你就是好好守住你的本分今天 今天公祭 明天旺祭那民進黨就這樣啊有錦霄今天為了捍衛國人生命產產安全犧牲生命的時候哇 賴清德 卓榮泰哀悼啊 哀傷啊公祭哀悼 哀傷啊隔天啊隔天就踩你 砍你預算"},{"start":4252.994,"end":4279.243,"text":"請問到底景蕭得罪賴清德什麼啊需要這樣對待景蕭嗎你不要怪我生氣我跟你講為自己私我沒那麼生氣今天我生氣的是賴清德跟卓榮泰踩景蕭踩軍人我告訴你啊那是賴清德自己政治要負責啦我也在這邊呼籲所有的景蕭跟我們的軍人的跑者們"},{"start":4281.055,"end":4297.404,"text":"你看看今天一路上羅志強國民黨我們是怎麼挺警校挺軍人的我們浴血奮戰了一整年終於爭取到待遇的提高合理的提高賴清德跟你講說抱歉啊你們不值得啊"},{"start":4299.588,"end":4321.74,"text":"坐在底下的王毅川有辦法去抗議我們的主席啊但是他跟所有民進黨的立委一路投反對票到底陪著賴清德一起踩警箱踩軍人也有你王毅川一份啦所以我要跟你講我在底下為什麼那麼生氣我聽到我受不了啦我現在想問你第二個問題我想請教"},{"start":4325.697,"end":4353.18,"text":"你總知道我們中華民國有哪五個民選總統吧知道啊 告訴大家李登輝總統陳水扁總統馬英九總統蔡英文總統然後那個賴清德總統我請問這五位總統哪一位總統最優秀在他的任內上任第一年發動全國性大罷免來清算追殺殲滅在野黨"},{"start":4357.721,"end":4382.709,"text":"這跟我們部裡面業務沒關係 後面就有關係了我現在講的後面就有關係了就是愛心德來為了慣行 貫徹他的大罷免所有行政不中立的各種所謂的鬼故事全部出樓我再告訴你請問今天有哪一個行政團隊"},{"start":4384.935,"end":4406.426,"text":"為了罷免這歷任總統的行政院 為了罷免下鄉宣講直接痛批在野黨說這次叫輪迴說今天在野黨殺野跟著霸團一起在搞罷免哪一位偉大的行政院院長做到了這個舉世無雙的成就 你告訴我"},{"start":4407.964,"end":4436.132,"text":"跟你的業務無關啊跟你業務有關啊這行政不中立就是著龍泰還無關啊你還跟我講無關耶就是著龍泰那我要跟你講今天 懷次長我對你很失望很失望你身為今天權敘部的官員你腦袋當中就兩件事做到你就100分"},{"start":4438.151,"end":4460.586,"text":"第一個站在我們的警校跟公教我們的公務人員的身旁當他們的後盾我沒有要你講出忤逆我們今上賴清德的話但你起碼要有些微的部長次長的風骨道德勇氣去捍衛警校捍衛軍人我今天沒有看到這個風骨"},{"start":4462.401,"end":4491.368,"text":"那第二個你要謹守今天對行政中立的永遠的堅正的支持今天我也沒看到那我要告訴你你今天最該學習的官員是誰你知道是誰嗎我告訴你你最該學習的官員叫邱太元我今天對邱太元是非常肯定為什麼我講一件事情整個民進黨部會都在造謠"},{"start":4495.449,"end":4511.092,"text":"當時劉世芳帶頭造謠在野黨刪租屋津貼我們中線召委中線主席已經怒到去告了有這件事嗎請問你不知道啦對不對來來來內政部的代表上來時間暫停內政部代表上來來在野黨有刪租屋津貼嗎有沒有"},{"start":4524.656,"end":4549.912,"text":"有沒有報告委員因為這個跟受派來進入貴人會我告訴你部長都已經承認說錯話了但是沒有用啦造謠的那個威力全部下去了造謠威力全部下去了就是這種造謠官員來 次長行政中立嗎造謠是行政中立嗎"},{"start":4552.031,"end":4581.26,"text":"行政中立法上面對這個部分喔有啦 大法官都告訴你這也答不出來 憲法常識大法官跟你講說謊 官員說謊天經地義啊官員說謊不用負責啊你全序不次長都不知道大法官的憲法判決大法官跟你講官員說謊沒事嘛當然就說謊啊我拉回來我拉回來 我問你啊你知道為什麼我推崇邱太元嗎"},{"start":4583.971,"end":4612.403,"text":"因為當時我在被罷免的時候突然一堆罷團說在發文宣在網路上羅志強三長照預算這種不尊重長輩的人罷免他還罵我爸媽還在網路上罵我攻擊我父母親我怒到不行我來質詢邱太元的時候我問部長"},{"start":4614.064,"end":4634.201,"text":"我說請問啊 邱部長衛福部的預算 今年比去年多多少部長跟我講 多306億喔 他數字超級清楚的那我就問他說 長照預算我們有3嗎部長直接跟你講 跟我講 沒有3比去年更多學學邱太元啊"},{"start":4641.533,"end":4668.119,"text":"最行政中立的官員就下台了他不要學啦真的也對也不能學學完就下台了只有他沒有造謠甚至直面出來駁斥謠言這就是官員的風骨啊條條狀狀都跟行政中立有關啊我再問你啊來 中選會上來"},{"start":4670.305,"end":4699.293,"text":"中選會麻煩一下 謝謝中選會這個單位有多少年歷史應該有二十幾年你不知道 其實我也不是很確定那多少任主委主委 歷任主委 抱歉你也不知道 沒關係那有一樣你一定知道"},{"start":4700.41,"end":4725.387,"text":"中選會這漫長的歷史跟這麼多的主委當中哪一個主委跟你講說在選舉罷免期間喊告急搶救是違反選罷法的哪一位主委說的我告訴你 你做中選會的不管你是哪個部門的人員我知道不為難你就是李靖勇講的請問你嘛"},{"start":4729.878,"end":4749.388,"text":"選舉罷免期間只要不是投票日當天喊告急喊搶救請問違反什麼選罷法這部分我是方便請我們就是相關業務單位的代表我告訴你沒有啦就這麼簡單啦來 我再請教一下來 勞動部勞動部"},{"start":4760.834,"end":4772.757,"text":"哪一位偉大的部長上班時間發文挺罷免你也不知道不方便回答你是不方便回答不是不知道你當然知道不為難你就是洪森漢好中立的行政我就要跟回頭問我們的次長問我們次長我要告訴你今天為什麼要立法修法"},{"start":4791.57,"end":4818.423,"text":"因為就是太扯太離譜啦最後還是一句話我希望你牢牢記在心上你的這一條命是誰在保障你知道嗎我們在座所有人的命誰在保障你知道嗎誰在保障你告訴我全國人民一起啊誰在守在治安的前線火災的前線保護可能我們的生命安全誰是誰"},{"start":4820.387,"end":4829.819,"text":"就警察跟消防啊答對了誰看守我們的國家 國土 防衛阻止外敵侵犯 保家衛民是誰跟我們國軍國軍啊"},{"start":4832.472,"end":4846.578,"text":"你想清楚我們的命就是錦囂跟國軍在保的你在想清楚你要不要再幫今天採錦囂採軍人的總統背書啦想清楚啦 謝謝你我剛剛已經跟委員報告過我們在執行這個35條我們是繼續在執行該做的我們都會做 來來來沒關係行政院不編預算你給我一個回答不編預算請問怎麼做啊"},{"start":4861.741,"end":4882.861,"text":"你看嘛 你還要解釋多給你十秒鐘 只讓你自己打臉自己而已啊你剛剛在黃國昌的回答就讓我底下做的拳頭都硬了因為我真的沒有想到你要這樣回答啦你可以今天甚至啊 你就說抱歉我不敢回答 我都原諒你剛剛後面都不敢回答我有為難他們嗎我沒有啊 起碼他們沒護航啊"},{"start":4884.272,"end":4902.965,"text":"你今天站在這個地方你作為今天公務人員最重要靠山給你時間回應你還是就自我打臉啊救救你啦 可以了啦 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們先請翁曉林委員代理主席"},{"start":4916.386,"end":4937.646,"text":"接下來有請吳宗憲委員質詢我們麻煩全區部次長還有婦人次長先上台那待會也會請教秘書長 秘書長先等一下各位早安 辛苦了"},{"start":4939.683,"end":4953.368,"text":"我想先請教次長那個次長 懷市長懷市長你是基層公務員出身的嗎是的 從維登公務員開始做起好 因為我有聽您講過我想請問一下"},{"start":4955.289,"end":4975.469,"text":"那你也有當過常任文官也有當任過政務官對不對是好 那我請問一下就是依照我們現在的公務員服務法政務人員他到底需不需要依法行政要我想說這個依法行政是公務員的基本要求所以才會寫在公務員服務法的第一條"},{"start":4976.65,"end":4999.56,"text":"那我請問一下這個依法行政的這個法是不是指的是立法院通過總統公佈的這個法律公務員就有遵守的義務是 就他執行業務的時候他譬如說假設有些作用法規或他自己內部在法體系裡面內部的這些行政規則行政命令等等他就如果有明文規定這個他就應該要照規定來執行好 那"},{"start":5002.642,"end":5028.175,"text":"監察院有派人來嗎我請問一下但是我不知道這個部分跟你的業務有沒有關係我想請問一下監察院就是政務官一樣受公務員懲戒法的規範對不對那政務人員如果他不依法行政那發生公務員懲戒法第二條的情勢的時候是不是要照樣要送懲戒"},{"start":5029.295,"end":5054.703,"text":"是好我再請問一下依據公務員懲戒法24條如果是院長部長發現公務員有第二條所定的刑事的時候這時候應由他的機關具備文件序名是有然後連同證據送到監察院審查但是如果今天犯錯的是院長或部長的話那要誰送"},{"start":5060.772,"end":5088.933,"text":"這個部分如果在本院的話我們有那個紀律我們有自律委員會所以這個要自律委員會去審查我知道就那個監察委員是紀律委員會沒有錯那我現在請教就是說因為審刑法24條他是說院長部長發現所屬公務員有這些問題的時候那要送那我想請教一下如果今天違法的是院長或部長的話那應該是誰送他自己送自己"},{"start":5092.031,"end":5109.037,"text":"好 沒關係 那這可能這個是不是沒辦法回答這個可能要請懲戒法的那個主管進來好 那今天沒有辦法回答這樣我了解了好 那今天我們現在發現了一個問題就是說我們本來認為說依法行政這是國家"},{"start":5110.097,"end":5122.313,"text":"尤其行政機關最該有的基本但是我們今天看到從剛剛的幾位委員的質詢我們發現一件事情三讀通過的法律在我國行政院可以帶頭不執行"},{"start":5123.939,"end":5140.857,"text":"我再講一次三讀通過的法律而且還沒有被大法官宣告違憲或視為暫時處分要求這個東西不可以做之前行政院可以違憲違法的不執行那請問一下監察院有沒有看到這個問題"},{"start":5144.019,"end":5162.67,"text":"這個部分可能還是要從那個確實的去認定那這樣還是等於沒有回答那其實我剛一開始我就有講到說其實權力分立的概念現在現代化國家都有權力分立的概念不管是三權分立還是五權分立他就是怕國家走向專制跟集權"},{"start":5163.71,"end":5192.124,"text":"所以他不希望由行政權把司法權或行政權把立法權都包括在裡面了這三權分立國家所有三權分立國家都這個概念但我們今天看到的是行政權好像直接把所有的權都包括在裡面了那今天行政權照理說他不能夠不執行立法院三讀通過的法案他是沒有權力選擇我愛做不做他只有義務去遵守已經通過的法律"},{"start":5192.924,"end":5217.658,"text":"但是呢今天行政院院長跟我國的總統直接出來告訴大家三讀通過的法律我也懶得管我等釋憲結果出來我再決定要不要做這不是就一個違法最基本違法的ABC就出來了嗎我想全國的法律學者不會有人認同總統跟行政院院長這句話那請問監察院哪裡去了"},{"start":5218.888,"end":5238.047,"text":"如果監察權覺得自己還是個監察院貴院總是來這邊跟我們說監察院有存在的必要但是當事情發生的時候卻監察院永遠看不到人這是我對於監察院一直以來無法理解的部分我再跟各位報告任何一個法律"},{"start":5238.968,"end":5263.343,"text":"任何一個法律當你被大法官宣告違憲之前它就是一個有效的法律在你被大法官要求你暫停使用之前你就必須要執行並沒有我提出申請或我提出釋憲我就可以不做行政院從來沒有這種權利各國也沒有這樣的制度這個制度會出現在哪裡就是專制國家"},{"start":5264.805,"end":5274.196,"text":"總統或行政院長一個人說了算的國家才會這樣所以今天行政院長以及我國總統完美詮釋了我們是一個專制國家"},{"start":5275.805,"end":5302.702,"text":"所以才會有法律三讀通過之後行政權可以說我就不執行啊然後還有更荒謬的也是從官員口中講出來的說如果我這些錦銷的錢我編下去以後如果改天大法官宣告違憲那我怎麼辦我怎麼追回來我不是違憲的這更胡說八道任何一個法律在被宣告違憲的那一天之前的任何作為都叫做合法行為"},{"start":5303.422,"end":5327.457,"text":"而是被宣告違憲那一天開始這條法律不能用這是所有法律人法律學者都知道的ABC結果今天在我國竟然被行政官員出來說我發了啊大法官如果說我違憲怎麼辦沒有怎麼辦你就必須就是要依法行政我想我今天講這個東西完全是最基本大一法律學生都懂的東西但在我國"},{"start":5329.556,"end":5345.523,"text":"總統 行政院院長可以出來帶頭騙全體國人這就是為什麼我一直覺得監察行政院的作為我們立法院本來應該要予以監督但是我們今天看到是立法委員爭相的護航"},{"start":5346.741,"end":5370.982,"text":"那這個叫做民主國家嗎不是吧 這個叫做專制國家民進黨在野的時候也是扮演好他監督的責任所以民進黨在野的時候他對於國民黨執政時候的多加批判那就是盡了他的所有的職務我們都非常的敬佩民進黨在野時候的作為但當民進黨執政的時候卻不允許在野黨去對他加以監督"},{"start":5372.623,"end":5392.853,"text":"越走越回去了把台灣走回專制的時代這我沒有辦法接受所以我在這邊跟各位說不管剛羅志強委員講或是剛黃國昌委員他們所提到的警消人員加薪的部分我再說一次三讀通過的法律在被大法官宣告違憲之前它就是一個有效的法律"},{"start":5394.082,"end":5412.037,"text":"不管行政院有沒有提出釋憲有沒有提出暫時處分的申請只要法官還沒有下裁定或判決之前你就必須要履行那在這個地方的履行跟執行是什麼就是編列預算在這個地方就是編列預算第二個"},{"start":5413.89,"end":5435.423,"text":"絕對不存在這些官員所說的如果我發了改天大法官宣告違憲之後那這些錢怎麼辦也沒有那種事因為我國的制度以及全世界的制度都一樣只要他被宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法作為不存在要不要追回的問題要不要把錢追回的問題也不存在之前發的錢是違憲的問題"},{"start":5437.364,"end":5462.168,"text":"所以我國有非常多的法律曾經被宣告違憲但是它在違憲之前的法官所有依法的判決都不會發生冤獄賠償等等的事由存在這個是法律ABC請這些政客們 請這些行政院的高官們不要出來騙全體國人不要總是把法律ABC我跟你講這國家唸法律的人很多啦然後各大學法律通識課程也有"},{"start":5463.291,"end":5487.251,"text":"如果你們以為騙國人騙一騙國人就會被騙你這次就不會罷免搞得這麼難看你就不會我今天早上看到今天早上的那個民調總統的滿意度還有集團院長滿意度已經低到我覺得不可思議的程度了國人沒有那麼好騙我覺得該做的是我們必須依法的行政我在講剛剛我提到"},{"start":5489.212,"end":5504.366,"text":"刚刚我提到那个刚刚一开始我发现说我提到孟德施救其实孟德施救还有一句话很重要他说真正的自由是法律底下的自由也就是我们人在争取自由的时候我们只能争取法律之下的自由而不是超越法律的自由"},{"start":5505.584,"end":5534.75,"text":"這西方三權分立之父孟德斯有所說的話這在我國也是適用啊怎麼會現在從行政院長總統帶頭在那邊造謠騙人 說謊 毀憲亂政我每一個都可以講出條文以及依據但是這些政客們這些高官們永遠講不出依據只在那邊胡說八道我想憲判9號如果你們去看一下內容也是打臉了這一次的卓院長他其實有提到"},{"start":5536.636,"end":5562.914,"text":"行政院在立法院 憲法上所應負的政治責任其實最終是對民意負責 憲判久有講到最近台大那個教授原決案也有提到 就是說卓榮泰如果不下台 其實他首先被打臉的是憲法法庭我覺得我這只是引述他們的話 我想要跟各位報告我覺得這段時間國家整個荒謬 還有整個國家行政機關為了搞他那個所謂的大罷免"},{"start":5564.588,"end":5592.44,"text":"部會首長 院長 總統出來不停地造謠講那什麼團結思想裡面錯誤擺出的造謠不要說我亂講每一個東西我都可以把它點出來這是我的個性我也都把它點出來它依據是什麼為什麼是說謊我一個一個都點出來所以我還是覺得各位監察院這邊請注意一下請監察院注意既然我們的行政院院長"},{"start":5594.158,"end":5596.469,"text":"他都带头在那边违法"},{"start":5597.657,"end":5624.57,"text":"那是不是你應該要思考一下監察院要不要有所動作我不是要你們一定要半導一定要懲戒行政院長而是你們總是要進行調查也許調查之後發現國人是對院長誤會了那你們還他一個清白也是好事我也樂見但是應該還是要有所動作就我講的行政院依法行政是你的義務不是你的權利當今天立法院三讀通過的法律"},{"start":5625.31,"end":5651.744,"text":"既然行政院可以說我要事先終我申請暫時處分所以我不用執行我國以及全世界都沒有這樣的制度如果有請拿出來打臉我我最喜歡講這句話我如果有這樣的制度請拿出來打臉我否則請依法行政如果連這樣子都不懂的話我們怎麼會是法治國怎麼會是一個法律底下的自由好 那個再麻煩監察院這邊好 謝謝"},{"start":5666.584,"end":5669.066,"text":"好 下一位我們請王逸川委員發言好 我們請行政院人事總署副人事長還有請監察院的代表 謝謝好 麻煩監察院代表"},{"start":5701.553,"end":5712.527,"text":"好 我先請教副人事長委員好這裡面認為的政務人員應該包括哪一些如果從字面上的定義看起來"},{"start":5714.296,"end":5741.43,"text":"最大多數就是政治任命的 像部會首長還有地方政府的一級機關首長 一級主管這些就是政務人員 那還有有些是憲法跟法律規定他獨立行使職權 有任體制的好 那你認為縣市長是不是政府人員縣市長是民選人員 民選的行政首長那縣市長要不要被規範要有行為基準法"},{"start":5743.444,"end":5753.179,"text":"這個就是我們過去一直在討論然後就是大家意見會比較分歧這個討論多久了"},{"start":5755.95,"end":5780.471,"text":"討論的時間就剛剛其實幾位首長有報告過那個委員也大概有講這個從民國八十幾年一直從考試院跟行政院總共送了五次的相關的法案進來那都長不一樣嗎對這一個人員的定義都長不一樣定義就是每次討論的時候哪些要納進來 哪些不納進來"},{"start":5784.231,"end":5810.771,"text":"包括還有一些像兼任的可是他的職務看起來是不是是不是也像這個一般的這個行政的政務官有類似的職長可是他的相關的權益譬如說他可能是無給職等等的無給職兼任然後是這個委員會的委員所以這個是的確這個範圍的定義上面"},{"start":5813.893,"end":5838.261,"text":"會有不同的意見會有不同意見所以這一塊在這幾年的討論也沒有大家沒有共識那最主要是出在哪裡出在有些人不想要被納進來還是怎麼樣因為這個各有各的觀點各有各的觀點就是覺得權力義務總是對等我們到底是管理的強度跟他這個他的這個"},{"start":5840.421,"end":5842.241,"text":"那你們認為國營事業的董事長要不要被規範"},{"start":5861.971,"end":5889.768,"text":"國營事業的董事長他現在中立法是他是准用的範圍他本來就有被規範那我是說如果現在要立這個法的話立這個法我們會認為他不是政務人員所以國營事業相關的就不會被規範在裡頭對 因為他是公務員任用法分支出來的是某一種類型的好 OK那我先請問這個監察院"},{"start":5891.909,"end":5916.934,"text":"我們現在在做公職人員財產申報除了這一個一般的文官就是事務官在一定的職等以上就要申報那有些像有些縣市政府的官員有些被抽籤抽中了也要申報我記得是這樣那請問這申報的這些人當時監察院現在執行這個的時候他要財產申報當時為什麼這些人要申報"},{"start":5923.732,"end":5948.645,"text":"報告委員公職人員財產申報處的目的就是希望透過財產申報的制度讓所有的公職人員的財產都能夠暴露在陽光之下陽光是一個最好的防腐劑然後可以檢視所有包括政務人員還有公務人員他們的財產的狀況對好那這一個財產申報過程中有沒有出現政務人員這四個字"},{"start":5953.379,"end":5975.051,"text":"報告委員 裡面也有出現政務人員的相關規定拿來 副人事長可不可以按照公職院財政申報法裡頭寫的政務人員就這樣定義不然我們就會出現兩個法的政務人員的定義不一樣"},{"start":5978.477,"end":5997.102,"text":"這個部分你要再慎重的考慮啦譬如說我們討論的過程像大法官最高行政院法院院長他們其實本身的中立甚至比一般的政務官員要受到更嚴格的要求"},{"start":5997.822,"end":6015.342,"text":"所以各種類型它的強度都會有不同這個大家也有不一樣的意見就是說這塊到底要不要納進來其實就是在範圍的界定上需要譬如說像我們"},{"start":6016.984,"end":6044.266,"text":"剛剛有報告說地方的這個不管是民選首長其實他不是政務官那他一般的認知上不會說他叫這個給他政治任命但是他的相關的權限跟影響其實又跟政務首長有非常類似的地方那現在框最大的問題"},{"start":6045.467,"end":6073.303,"text":"要把他的管理管到那個強度到底能不能比較適切的去符合他的比例的原則所以這個是大家就是在討論但是目前就是還沒有正式的這個大家比較確定的那如果是這樣子的話那如果用監察院的這個財產申報裡頭的政務人員你覺得哪一些應該要排除"},{"start":6075.103,"end":6089.992,"text":"我們覺得我們自己的意見我們是認為大法官跟最高法院行政法院這些因為他有比較嚴格的要求"},{"start":6090.672,"end":6118.585,"text":"那我們自己本身總署的意見會是認為這些可能排除上我們會認為適當那除了這些排除還有沒有其他各個領域的人是不是贊同我們的看法這個我們就沒有完全的把握因為也有人阻擋把它放進去所以你們要去了解各個領域的狀況因為涉及到各院嘛還要涉及到就算在行政院也還涉及到地方政府"},{"start":6119.588,"end":6137.697,"text":"所以就是牽涉的範圍的確是比較大的好那我是不是建議這樣接下來如果這個案子行政院相關的部會要提相關的案子進來討論的話那我是建議是不是就用這個公職員財產申報有政務人員以他為基礎然後看哪一些認為應該要剔除"},{"start":6139.975,"end":6142.837,"text":"我的意見我們會帶回去參考進行這樣的討論是不是會比較容易聚焦不然這樣整個都開花了搞不清楚現在要設定的範圍那掛一落萬或者是千年無辜就把一些不應該納進來的納進來"},{"start":6158.553,"end":6176.836,"text":"有些人一時興起說那一種職位要納進來那有一些沒提到就忘了他那其實他也有必要那這一塊再請你們進行相關的研議用最快的時間再把他送到這個院裡頭立法院裡頭來讓我們進行相關的討論好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員發言"},{"start":6194.673,"end":6197.981,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有先請全序部 謝謝麻煩市長"},{"start":6205.218,"end":6227.66,"text":"好 那早安我想我們今天要討論的是關於政務人員是不是要行政中立這件事情那當然後續的法條我們也許之後還可以開公聽會來討論可是我想我們之前看到考試院的立場說得非常清楚考試院管的是公務人員而不是政務人員可是我們在看到考試院的報告裡面對於各國制度的掌握其實已經給了立法院一份研究的建議那這個建議當中"},{"start":6229.421,"end":6252.68,"text":"有特別提到一件事情我也想要跟您確認說其實有非常多民主國家對於政務人員相關規範並沒有所謂的專法的狀況是不是 是不是這樣是 就是說沒有一個叫做就是類似這樣法但他們的規範行為會散在其他不同的法律裡面也是有做一些規範那台灣現行也是這樣嘛 對不對目前我們大概主要是在行政中立法跟公務員服務法"},{"start":6253.18,"end":6271.775,"text":"大概站在這還有承協法也有對他們一些規劃那可是對於有些委員提案的版本你們目前有沒有什麼規劃或者是要討論的進度基本上我們是尊重但是就是成如我們在今天提給大院委員的報告因為我們認為因為考試院基本上是法治嘛"},{"start":6272.435,"end":6293.484,"text":"那因為政務人員本來他的行為就很多元跟動態那未來在譬如說哪些行為應該如何或應該怎麼樣來做處理這部分我們會比較建議說行政院或許比我們更適合來做因為畢竟目前中央跟地方的政務人員以人數來講是都幾乎集中在行政院跟地方政府"},{"start":6294.404,"end":6317.391,"text":"政府裡面所以我們會比較認為說才會跟大院報告說我們建議未來是應該由行政院來做這樣的一個主管機關會比較適合所以會給行政院這樣的建議可是對於現在相關委員的版本裡面他們到底含花哪些人哪些範圍的人員其實我覺得也是後續要去研究包含有沒有包含所謂的民選首長這個部分我覺得可能是會大家其中會有一些歧異的地方是"},{"start":6317.791,"end":6337.437,"text":"好那這個我也想要建議主席也許因為主席今天已經安排了但是我還是想要建議主席也許有機會我真的覺得應該要在辦公廳會我們把這個大家對於這件事情的理解或者是範圍定義有多廣然後這件事情我覺得還可以後續來做討論好不好好謝謝那這邊先請回謝謝接下來我想要請任總跟保訓會"},{"start":6346.547,"end":6372.301,"text":"好早安我想要跟您分享一下我們這個禮拜在勞動部看到一個非常棒的政策說如果在職場上有被害人他有性騷擾的議題他必須要到場調解而這個調解雇主必須要安心給予工價這個部分是勞動部的政策那一樣只要相關勞動政策我相信所有公務人員可能也會想問那身為公務人員他們如果有相關議題或者是在職場上有被不當對待那"},{"start":6374.602,"end":6390.821,"text":"在參加性平調解或者是相關的會議當中我們的公務人員可不可以也請公假這個部分目前有相關的規範或者是討論過嗎如果沒有的話是不是可以把勞動部的這個建議也想一下在公務人員這邊我們可以怎麼規範都會比照"},{"start":6396.574,"end":6409.052,"text":"跟委員報告這是全部主管但是全部的請假規則裡面就是這個是公園是性評法適用的對象請假規則裡面就有規範所以性評法那邊有規範就我們就會一體適用"},{"start":6413.118,"end":6430.67,"text":"所以原則上如果《性平法》裡面的寫法是可以的那如果是這樣我其實也想鼓勵這邊我覺得要可以宣傳對內要讓我們公務員知道如果他們真的運氣很不好在職場上遇到這樣的事情他必須要請公價我們必須要給予公價的支持好不好"},{"start":6432.171,"end":6458.039,"text":"那接下來要說勞動部在這個相關的文章還有提到僱傭單位如果因此有不利益的對待違反規定勞工還可以檢舉相關事證去跟勞政主管機關或是勞動部的相關專線提出申請那如果我們公務員遇到這個沒有辦法請公家的狀況他們可以向誰申訴或是可以向誰檢舉讓他們可以保障自己的權益那也展現政府機關照顧公務員的決心"},{"start":6463.635,"end":6480.804,"text":"沒關係 如果現在還不確定機關會跟機關他本身就可以跟機關去反映去反映那如果他沒有得到相應的解決那基本上就會落到救濟的範疇那就保訓會可以跟保訓會提申訴"},{"start":6481.724,"end":6495.145,"text":"那我也建議保訓會其實我們已經有相關規範了也有相關可以做的路徑跟方法那真的是要加強推廣讓我們的公務人員知道政府機關在這件事情上是有決心而且已經有法規範而且也有途徑好不好"},{"start":6497.055,"end":6521.623,"text":"謝謝委員 建議我們會努力來做好 謝謝因為不是我不是說你們沒做到是已經有了那我們就要把它講出來好不好因為我認為勞動部做這個圖卡其實非常非常的清楚那我相信保訓會這邊應該也是好那這邊先這樣好接下來我想要談一下關於運動部即將成立可是我們其實擔心另外一件事情也想要跟您請教運動部在我們要講運動部而是說原本"},{"start":6522.143,"end":6550.825,"text":"系屬於教育部的行政訴訟啦 溯院性平的霸凌案在阻改的過程當中我們如何讓持續的案子被可以好好的完善的往下走這邊我想要聽聽看您的建議因為我們之前陸陸續續跟行政院考試院人總衛福部勞動部去請教如果在改組之後在不同的情況下到了不同的機關去那適用的法規在阻改前後可能會有一些不一樣那我這邊想要請你們給我一個說法就是人總跟全序部這邊"},{"start":6551.465,"end":6565.842,"text":"是不是可以協助教育部先在9月9號之前有沒有機會跨部會討論協助教育部的體育署相關改組之後就是運動部升格之後相關的這些爭議的系數我們要怎麼樣銜接過去"},{"start":6568.619,"end":6591.829,"text":"跟委員報告運動部的籌組在行政局有組一個跨部會的相關的籌備工作小組也一直在進行大概包括各個面向 不管組織 業務包括他的預算等等有關於業務的職長或者是權限的管轄的劃分在暫停條例"},{"start":6593.55,"end":6608.294,"text":"第三條上面其實有一個原則性的規範應該是隨著業務去做相關的移轉但是如果有涉及到所謂訴訟等等的這個可能就必須要回歸到各個主管機關市發院 行政院 考試院勞動部委員這個意見我們會帶給這個小組來"},{"start":6613.837,"end":6634.799,"text":"來跟他們建議我自己猜測 我也比較關心性騷或者是霸凌等等也就是這個我們有去做過了解目前是沒有這樣的案子目前沒有所以在改組之後也不會有相關的問題目前沒有個案在進行"},{"start":6635.86,"end":6651.915,"text":"我指的是在教育部當中必須要跟體育有關的在運動部成立之後目前你們整理出來是沒有我們現在的恰的結果是恰的結果是性品案件跟犯人案件目前是"},{"start":6652.495,"end":6673.676,"text":"沒有個案在進行那如果有的話我覺得就是再次確定如果有的話跨部會議很重要那至於有沒有行政訴訟的部分也再麻煩你們確定好不好如同您剛剛說性評的部分沒有霸凌的部分也沒有嘛對不對那希望行政訴訟的部分也去做相關確定那接下來還是要回到公務人員職場育兒一直以來我都有跟權敘部討論相關的問題謝謝"},{"start":6677.319,"end":6690.374,"text":"現在在公務人員任用法第22條裡面我們有一個非常棒的政策我要再次謝謝全序部有提到所謂友善育兒的條款所以友善育兒就是說小朋友在三歲以下的時候"},{"start":6691.015,"end":6713.78,"text":"如果是公務人員我可以調職到跟小朋友居住地的同一個縣市我認為這個條文利益非常良善而且確實可以讓我們的公務機關的公務人員認為政府機關在照顧我們而且協助我們育兒可是呢問題是在這個條款的第二款還有一個但書就是要實際任職達公務人員考試法鎖定限制轉調期間三分之一以上"},{"start":6714.6,"end":6740.833,"text":"也就是公務人員目前如果要待三年的這個基本設計來說小朋友出生後還要等一年才能轉掉也就是現行的制度會把我們的公務員跟他的孩子至少分隔一年左右那我要說你們其實在考試院有了解到這個問題考試院自己主動注意到這個問題所以在今年三月的考試院的會議就有考試委員建議你們要進一步去了解並且"},{"start":6742.214,"end":6753,"text":"確定一下有多少相關的個案受到影響未來還可以怎麼調整我在想這邊是不是可以請跟全序部討論一下你們有沒有機會進一步評估那連同你們現在了解的狀況做一個報告"},{"start":6754.924,"end":6772.296,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說因為因為剛剛您提示到那個部分那是本法的規範嘛那當然在法律沒修正前是沒有辦法變動但是我們對於那個這一條就是怎麼再執行商調裡面這一塊我們部裡面已經有您的一個草案"},{"start":6772.836,"end":6802.142,"text":"送到考試院去那原則上就是說如果說屬於這個狀況的這個狀況的人他在這個機關因為我們現在未來對於商調是直接要求就是說機關不能再無限拖啦對 因為上次我們也討論過我們會要有一個要求一個時間點那我們希望說你至少在這個機關要任職滿六個月但是我們有但書這個部分也是屬於不必不必說一定會要任職滿六個月以上的範圍啦但是這還是不能排除本法三分之"},{"start":6802.962,"end":6831.161,"text":"三分之一的問題那這樣的話就會讓他在辦理商調的時候他就可以很清楚什麼時候他就可以掉手因為我們現在的修正方式就是直接要機關把明確的商調的時間點要把它明確出來而且我們有做了幾個限制譬如說原則上最多三個月那有特殊狀況之下的話最多可以在三個月所以最多就是六個月但是這個情形它是不會被動到三個月的狀況"},{"start":6832.902,"end":6851.519,"text":"因為它這是育兒的這個情形對對對所以我們其實是有機會改善而且考試院都已經提出建議了我們也有提修正案太好了非常謝謝全序部這個很正向的回應不知道後續進度我們大概我們現在在等考試院全院的審查會如果通過以後這個應該就可以就可以來發布再實施"},{"start":6853.4,"end":6868.022,"text":"太好了我覺得這個公務機關對於友善育兒這件事情我們確實一步一步在往前走所以在這個進度上也謝謝您剛剛的進度回覆我們很希望後續在確定修完這個相關辦法之後真的可以落實到基層公務人員的身上"},{"start":6868.582,"end":6890.158,"text":"讓他們在友善育兒這件事情真的有覺得政府有在照顧大家最後我要拜託一下監察院最近有一個獨家新聞在講到關於未成年抽血的事情我講的是未成年我想這邊我就是簡單拜託監察院在相關新聞上有注意進度然後確保在相關研究議題上是有進度或者是監察院這邊有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":6892.173,"end":6918.498,"text":"有關於那個那個運動員委員提的是運動員那個抽血案未成年未成年這個因為這個相關的新聞竟然講的是四所公立大學的未成年的部分是那這個部分我們回去我們會立刻收集相關的資料來研究一下看是不是需要要需要發文還是含查的好是謝謝委員OK好謝謝謝謝那就拜託你們注意了好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":6931.635,"end":6939.683,"text":"謝主席有請我們劉秘書長全序部的懷次長還有人事總處的副人事長大家辛苦了"},{"start":6949.255,"end":6968.762,"text":"在司法法治委員會我非常開心剛剛聽到我們的召委吳宗憲他引用了我們自由法典的創造者莫德斯鳩的過去的一些主張這是我大學跟研究所的時候一直在研讀的這些文章我剛剛還特別回去再看了一下"},{"start":6969.862,"end":6989.314,"text":"那趙偉說歡迎打臉他我不敢啦但是我們來交換一下觀點跟分享一下彼此挑戰一下喔莫德斯就說自由就是做法律所允許的事的這份權利沒有錯嗎所以翻成白話文就是說在無法無天的社會裡面沒有人是自由的"},{"start":6990.447,"end":7016.732,"text":"我怎麼解讀莫德斯鳩他的這些的論述呢我先從一個部分我建議主席可以把《論法的精神》第十一章好好再首讀一下所謂的自由就是做法律所許可的事情的權利裡頭呢所說的是自由是政治上的自由也就是公民在政治上享有的權利也就是自由人是什麼"},{"start":7018.038,"end":7041.304,"text":"那麼很多學者在討論這個論法的精神十一章其實都會去對應於中國專制社會也就是說人民的法律賦予他的自由他就必須在法律所允許的範圍裡面去享有他可以享有的權利所以在專制的國家社會例如在中國"},{"start":7042.461,"end":7071.399,"text":"即便法律跟他講你會有一些集會結社出版言論等等說得很好聽但是事實上卻用外力也就是政治力來干預這些人民的自由公民的自由所以學界在講論法的精神十一章都是在反芻反思中國的現況而在台灣自由的台灣社會我也非常遺憾我們的立法院會用修正選罷法的方式來拿掉人民"},{"start":7072.319,"end":7097.936,"text":"在連署的權利給予他更難的難度甚至在一黨委員要修法連罷免的門檻要提高還好這個法律沒有修也就是我用孟德斯鳩的自由論來看到在台灣任何人都不能用外力去影響干預公民的自由很可惜在台灣有些立法委員如此"},{"start":7098.823,"end":7123.379,"text":"如果要講莫德斯鳩的自由法典裡頭另外一個部分我們要說的是莫德斯鳩一直在強調要用權力來制約權力因為自古至今擁有權力的人都可能濫用權力所以說制約權力就是捍衛自由的第一要務而在台灣如何check and balance就是回到憲法的規定權力分立的原則"},{"start":7124.64,"end":7138.803,"text":"沒有誰比較大權力分立立法權不能凌駕行政權行政權也不能夠來干涉立法權同樣的立法權不能干預考試院不能干預監察院等等"},{"start":7140.109,"end":7163.112,"text":"所以說權力的check and balance互相的制約請回到憲法的精神但是在立法院往往因為政治立場的不同用修法來凌駕憲法剛剛昭偉一直在講的憲法法庭憲法法庭什麼時候在野黨的委員這麼尊重憲法法庭了是在野黨的委員惡修了憲訴法癱瘓了憲法法庭"},{"start":7165.191,"end":7191.765,"text":"如果要遵從憲法法庭的裁判那請讓憲法法庭能夠恢復正常的運作不要惡修憲訴法也不要來影響延宕司法院的人事同意權來干預了這所謂用權力制約權力也就是孟德斯就一直在講的這個原則所以說我做這個分享也跟今天的主題相關來下一頁"},{"start":7195.356,"end":7199.529,"text":"我不是要講那個嗎 最後那三頁 對不起好 前一頁"},{"start":7200.863,"end":7229.238,"text":"剛剛主席有問到我也是要關心一下考試院反年改的附闢建在弦上那會增加政府的財政負擔也會讓年金提早破產更是踐踏了世代正義也違反憲法的權利分立原則我這裡我知道考試院的立場我們的立場一致我只是要提醒我們要嚴正以待因為在野黨已經建在弦上"},{"start":7231.138,"end":7234.968,"text":"懷次長 這個部分你們有做好什麼樣的因應準備嗎"},{"start":7237.858,"end":7239.319,"text":"我希望你們做的比過去更多因為警察人員人事條例就是被二修通過了"},{"start":7261.957,"end":7288.847,"text":"除了表達我們政府的意見提供正確的訊息來提供整個年金的試算要讓所有的公務人員年金不只看得到更要領得到就是保障現役以及未來青年世代的公務同仁除了你們要闡述正確的訊息更要強化遊說在野黨的立委也要擴大對社會的對話"},{"start":7290.407,"end":7318.296,"text":"我们过去往往只看到行政部门做出一个我的立场结束当我们知道立法院的委员已经建在悬上他甚至要强推的时候也不要放弃跟在野党的委员对话以及不要放弃对社会诉求我相信社会尤其青年世代会支持考试院的立场绝对反对年金斗腿炉这是我的提醒下一页"},{"start":7319.485,"end":7337.425,"text":"同樣的好軍人加薪我就不說了在最後一頁剛剛主席一直在講憲法法庭為什麼行政院沒有編警察人員人事條例跟軍人加薪被片面修法增加的預算大法官已經釋憲過了"},{"start":7340.034,"end":7360.973,"text":"已经示现过了就在35年前35年前的总统是国民党的李登辉行政院长是国民党的李焕立法院长是国民党的刘阔才司法院长是国民党的林阳港换言之当时的大法官的组成也都是国民党提名国民党通过"},{"start":7362.034,"end":7380.446,"text":"但是那個時候國民黨的立法委員在立法院在審預算的時候做成一個決議要增加公務人員半個月的年終工作獎金所以國民黨的行政院提請了釋憲而國民黨的司法院"},{"start":7381.874,"end":7400.202,"text":"做出來是違憲的才是因為不能違反憲法70條增加政府預算膨脹政府預算所以用這一個釋字264號在35年前就已經清楚被大法官打臉"},{"start":7402.322,"end":7430.814,"text":"這一次行政院的警察人員人事條例也好或是國軍加薪被立法院加碼的部分當然已經有釋字264號的解釋跟支撐我在這裡說明以權力來制約權力請服從跟尊重憲法法庭的35年前就已經做出的宣判35年前的國民黨"},{"start":7431.954,"end":7445.395,"text":"危险35年后的国民党还要违宪吗我回到我泡泡的最前面今天在讲政务人员是不是要有个专法我认为立得好"},{"start":7446.693,"end":7464.146,"text":"比例的快更重要但是當我們看待行政中立要擴大來管制政務人員的時候我又不得不的想到了在野黨的委員要提案想修正立法院組織法"},{"start":7466.068,"end":7476.847,"text":"讓立法院長可以兼任黨職黨魁這就是破壞了立法院組織法2016年的修法的意識中立"},{"start":7478.109,"end":7498.545,"text":"所以連議事中立都要破壞現在要來擴大管控政務人員的行政中立我覺得有沒有言以律己寬矣有沒有言以律人寬以待己呢但是吳斯堯同樣支持議事要中立 行政也要中立下一頁"},{"start":7500.27,"end":7523.948,"text":"所以說過去立法院修的法就是要捍衛議事中立我也呼籲在野黨的委員不要現在要立法來約束政務人員的時候另外為了自己的國會議長開了另外一個後門來強害議事中立我希望這個法案不會提出下一頁但是跟今天相關的幾位"},{"start":7525.592,"end":7548.197,"text":"我的觀點立法的爭點從過去到現在我印象中考試院送出幾次但是好像在立法院從來沒有在委員會討論過對不對祕書長可能有的有委員會的討論他只有一讀其實沒有送到委員會討論或者是送出法案但立法院沒有討論為什麼"},{"start":7550.174,"end":7569.06,"text":"為什麼這個非常多年前的事就是沒有共識就是我說的這四個爭點第一個有沒有需要在現行已有法治規範之下另立專法第二主管機關要行政院還是考試院這是老問題第三適用對象要擴大納入哪些人成為政務人員"},{"start":7570.12,"end":7595.432,"text":"的適用對象以及規範的行為到底要規範到哪裡這四個爭點讓過去到現在這麼多年來沒有辦法進展我認為我們可以這一屆立法院好好來討論我支持行政中立我支持政務人員的行為有一個可以討論的專法可以討論下一頁所以一個一個來講"},{"start":7597.453,"end":7626.493,"text":"现行的政务人员的行为散列在各个法规包括行政中立法公务员服务法公务员惩戒法联刑法一二一条都有收费的罪所以说他规范了很多公务对不起政务人员不得不得不得的这些规范已在各个法规都有了下一页有没有需要专法呢国际上有没有部长次长"},{"start":7627.735,"end":7628.237,"text":"國際上有沒有"},{"start":7629.708,"end":7657.81,"text":"跟委員報告大概主要國家我們有理解應該是沒有一個專門的法律他們都是跟我們現在狀況是比較像是站在不同法律上所以我這裡做的主要的民主進步國家美國加拿大英德日等等都沒有專法因為都用其他的法的體系在落實台灣需不需要可以討論但是要立得好而不是立得快下一頁另外一個重點適用的對象我就講重點"},{"start":7658.971,"end":7663.987,"text":"排除了民選首長合理嗎排除了民選首長合理嗎來次長"},{"start":7667.838,"end":7691.128,"text":"這個當然要一起考慮因為民選地方行政首長他的權限事實上也並不亞於其他部會的政務首長所以可以邀請地方政府一起來討論嘛對不對 擴大討論嘛所以適用的對象有疑義不要掛一漏萬或者是規範了很多卻漏了關鍵的一部分最後再來"},{"start":7692.248,"end":7712.523,"text":"好主管機關請問你們今天召委已經排了未來再討論的過程你們喬好了沒行政院還是考試院其實跟委員報告大概從第12屆就是前面三屆以來大概在這個部分跟行政院之間都有一些不一樣的觀點"},{"start":7713.669,"end":7727.537,"text":"那不過這一次如果這個一方面尊重我們立法院的討論那一方面就是說我們也尊重行政院的意見都尊重那行政院呢來你們要接嗎"},{"start":7729.181,"end":7747.295,"text":"因為我們過去已經有表達過不過剛剛召委提的疑慮的問題我們也跟召委報告如果大家同意由我們行政院來提出那我們行政院還是會會選考試院因為這個所以你們願意主題成為主管機關我們願意主題 然後我們會"},{"start":7749.296,"end":7769.615,"text":"會建議說要會請考試院的好 謝謝你的答案因為我也認為讓考試院來進行相對政治性的政務人員的管理是有問題的如果行政院願意接了這個球來研議一個專法我支持好嗎期待未來研議的過程行政院扮演多一點角色最後一頁"},{"start":7770.802,"end":7790.763,"text":"好这就是我的结论政务人员立专法yes可以讨论但是草率仓促的立法no我们就要思量我支持不管是政院版或是市院版在立法院未来可以并案审查我也支持公听会尤其地方民选首长要排除"},{"start":7791.624,"end":7815.439,"text":"我們可以擴大跟學者專家中央地方政府的對話討論最後一個要配套如果有一個專法現行的其他法規要不要一併檢討我認為也需要好嗎所以在這裡提醒要有院版要有公聽會要有制度的配套會讓我們未來的政務人員專法的催生更嚴謹更周延好我們一起努力謝謝好謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":7831.889,"end":7860.619,"text":"好 謝謝主席我在這邊首先先請國防部王副處長法律事務處軍法事務處副處長王副處長然後也請內政部的簡專委是不是簡專委好 那首先不好意思 那個王副處長對 我想先請教在過去不好意思 我先去拿消毒"},{"start":7871.239,"end":7876.583,"text":"我在這邊想請教就是在過去這些年裡面我們國軍的待遇調整有多少次我們曾經有多少次調心從105年開始到現在詳細我不知道但是我記得好幾次基本上我看了一些新聞從105年起國防部的"},{"start":7895.123,"end":7915.887,"text":"對於這個軍人的調薪有調整了四次核器達福大概是14%那請問因為我想您在軍中也服役很久了這個您過去有沒有印象就是軍人待遇調薪然後行政院不編預算國防部不編預算的有沒有曾經國防部不編列預算"},{"start":7921.246,"end":7946.448,"text":"包委員因為這個預算非我們本師我是法律師的所以這不是法律師應該要了解相關的法制啊是那有關這個部分我這邊並不清楚是不是我會後那從法律的角度來說您認為我們這立法院的法律的這個軍人待遇條例都通過了給軍人的待遇調薪尤其是家計的部分調薪那這個部分可以不執行嗎可以不編列預算嗎"},{"start":7950.117,"end":7958.92,"text":"你們國防部的法律事務處在國防部不編列預算這件事情上面你們有向你們的長官表達過這可能會有違法的疑慮嗎這個部分我們部長在近日對媒體也有回答說基於行政議題的部分所以國防部都沒有向行政院表示過任何"},{"start":7976.162,"end":7988.1,"text":"這個抗議或是認為說這樣子的做法是有違法疑慮的都沒有把這樣的意見告訴過行政院院長嗎這一部分我這邊並不是很清楚"},{"start":7989.994,"end":8012.826,"text":"看起來現在顧立雄他就是個聽命行事的國防部部長他根本沒有把國軍弟兄放在心裡他如果說他是個愛護國軍的這個長官的話他今天就應該要在行政院會議上面或者是說他應該要向行政院長去反映怎麼可以法律通過了竟然不編列預算"},{"start":8014.518,"end":8027.451,"text":"鮑委員 從我們部長一上任以來就不斷的跟我們各級的幹部來講這個一定要照顧國軍那針對國軍的各項域的待遇之災我們要聽其言 觀其行啦這個副處長您不用幫顧立雄插著抹粉他到底有沒有愛護國軍弟兄這一次的事件就清清楚楚"},{"start":8036.96,"end":8053.349,"text":"他沒有編列就沒有編列甚至連向行政院院長去抗議去提出異議他都沒有看起來就是這樣那請問接下來我想請問內政部的簡專委內政部部長有沒有向行政院院長提出異議"},{"start":8058.035,"end":8081.998,"text":"報告委員因為我們今天派員列席的這個部分是不清楚關於這個警校條例的相關的這個加級的問題那是不是容我們會後再跟委員做說明應該也沒有我沒有看到劉世芳劉部長在媒體上面有說他要捍衛警校人員的權益然後向行政院長表示異議表示抗議也沒有嘛所以呢不管是"},{"start":8083.96,"end":8098.388,"text":"這個國防部部長顧立雄或是劉世芳部長內政部部長劉世芳基本上說什麼愛軍愛警消我覺得那都是騙人的好 那我現在要講的就是好 請兩位先回座接下來請考試院劉秘書長或是權敘部的這個懷次長"},{"start":8114.547,"end":8122.601,"text":"是 請問劉秉樹長這次這個考試院針對114年考試院的預算你們有提出釋憲嗎你們當時有"},{"start":8125.945,"end":8146.253,"text":"加在行政院的中央政府總預算裡面一起去提起釋憲嗎 考試院的部分沒有 總預算因為是行政院的權責考試院沒有就這個部分提出所以我在想可能你也不太清楚到底行政院提出的114年的總預算的釋憲裡面有沒有涵蓋你考試院的部分"},{"start":8150.063,"end":8161.719,"text":"他是一整本去釋憲吧他就總預算釋憲要總預算釋憲就包含全國但是內容上面的部分我有沒有請你們的有知道的"},{"start":8163.411,"end":8188.379,"text":"因為我沒有看過那個釋憲文所以不知道他到底提什麼釋憲所以這是很可笑的一件事情卓榮泰他提出了114年的政府總預算的釋憲案裡面可能就包含了考試院 司法院 監察院而你們卻一無所知你們根本不知道你的預算是不是已經被提起釋憲了我上次有問過司法院的副秘書長他說他不知道"},{"start":8189.656,"end":8208.594,"text":"但是看起來他這整包的一起去提起釋憲還有就是說按照賴清德的邏輯說如果現在案子申請釋憲案當中就不應該執行那麼114年的中央政府總預算案是不是也應該要停止執行"},{"start":8213.499,"end":8238.084,"text":"我真的很覺得有的時候看到我們的賴總統的發言卓榮泰院長的發言都讓我覺得說他們怎麼可以雙標到如此的境界114年中央政府的總預算案它釋憲在先而且大法官已經受理了憲法法庭受理了看看我們的軍人待遇條例跟解消人員條例它是什麼時候提出釋憲的"},{"start":8239.508,"end":8257.67,"text":"前幾天8月22號才送出的大法官受理了嗎沒有受理啊你們的四限案這個大法官受理了你們還是繼續執行錢都快花完了現在還要來追加預算"},{"start":8259.222,"end":8276.169,"text":"對於這個法律通過的該編的預算也不編然後竟然還說是因為現在在申請釋憲中所以就拒絕編列等待釋憲結果之後再行編列這種話也說得出來我真的是覺得非常的"},{"start":8277.53,"end":8290.284,"text":"感到真的不知道應該怎麼樣去批評現在的我們的總統跟院長竟然可以違法到這樣子的這個境界好 那麼接下來請監察院好 請兩位請回"},{"start":8299.554,"end":8310.667,"text":"今天是處長監察業務處的黃處長來監察院的職權到底是什麼您可不可以解釋一下監察院的職權"},{"start":8312.582,"end":8337.192,"text":"報告委員監察院的職權是針對公務人員的違法失職然後我們行使那個憲法賦予的權利包括彈劾糾舉然後我們並提出比較跳的報告另外公職人員財產申報是不是針對好 我想很重要針對公務人員以及行政機關的違法失職進行彈劾及糾舉糾正對於現在我們看到的行政院"},{"start":8338.132,"end":8361.363,"text":"他不執行法律這個部分有沒有啟動調查監察院有啟動調查嗎調查權的行使是監察委員的職權他們是獨立行使職權所以這個部分的話我們當然會所以到現在為止監察委員沒有一個人是有啟動調查包含這個"},{"start":8363.479,"end":8384.145,"text":"行政院它違法苛扣地方性的補助款以及它不編列之前對於公務人員加薪一直拖拖拖拖了幾個月之後才核發調整的薪水然後到現在又違法的不編列軍人和警消人員的調薪這場委員不應該啟動調查嗎我希望今天處長可以把我幾個委員的"},{"start":8394.409,"end":8406.236,"text":"這個質疑帶回去給監察委員他們是不是應該要依職權要啟動調查而不應該這麼怠惰謝謝處長那麼接下來我要再講的就是請那個請也是請劉秘書長還有懷次長"},{"start":8421.547,"end":8445.086,"text":"今天我們其實討論考記法的問題但考記法的問題裡面其實我在這邊有幾個議題你們所提的條文的修正我大致上都同意但是還是有一些地方我不是很清楚尤其是對於我們現在知道公務人員常常可能會一次兩大過就免職但是如果說是每年他都是一大過"},{"start":8446.999,"end":8452.248,"text":"那麼連續好幾年每年都一大過現在我們有辦法去處理像這樣子的案子嗎像這樣的公務員嗎"},{"start":8454.315,"end":8479.936,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為我們烤雞的功過是以烤雞年度為主所以他去年記過一大過 今年記過一大過他不會被累積起來變成兩個大過但是您剛剛提到就是說比如說講的比較粗暴一點就是說可能工作都爛爛的 經常就粗暴這些應該是在平時成績考就要來給他執行執行包括他的年度烤雞就要一起把它"},{"start":8480.536,"end":8504.668,"text":"是的 我想講的就是說因為其實我們看到其實很多的公共機關有反應其實他們沒辦法去處理那個他可能常常年度被打考積是平等的那沒有辦法處理那可是在你們這次修正裡面我沒有看到你們有針對類似這種常常被考列平等的人員"},{"start":8505.868,"end":8528.965,"text":"有一個更積極的一個處理的機制這個部分的話是不是可以請你們去研析就是有關於就是常常被考慮兵等人員有沒有更正向的輔導改善機制好 那個委員這個意見我們帶回去我們這次跟委員報告我們這次修正主要是配合這次那個保障法的修正對於霸凌 性侵 性騷這些整體的一個配套的一個修正在第12條部分謝謝委員指導 謝謝"},{"start":8530.486,"end":8545.752,"text":"好 了解然後另外就是說是談到有關於政務人員法制方面的問題其實在上次情緒部的部長施部長他說有關於政務人員的法制不屬於考試院的權責請問劉秘書長你們考試院的意見"},{"start":8551.126,"end":8567.439,"text":"各位報告這一屆考試委員沒有就這個部分做成討論那這個因為那前一屆呢前一屆沒有處理都沒有處理對12屆也沒有再前一屆也沒有那主要就是因為說如果這個事跟行政院沒有共識的話其實這個法案送不出來因為他會險"},{"start":8569.056,"end":8590.982,"text":"考試院在多年前曾經有提出過政務人員法到政務人員的退府條例也是屬於你們考試院所提的退府條例比較特別因為考試院憲政你按照我們的風景也是由你們處理的憲政執掌上面是有退府去的所以這個部分我覺得非常重要必須要去釐清另外有關於陳菊的請假的問題她現在已經請假幾個月了"},{"start":8594.524,"end":8600.288,"text":"對 這我不清楚 可能要問檢察院從大概現在為止應該請假七八個月了嗎請問處長大概差不多八個月了吧是 報告委員那個院長的請假按照公務人員的請假規則現在目前請假的時間的確已經超過八個月已經超過八個月了所以如果說按照我們公務人員請假規則來講的話他最長的可以請假到什麼 明年到今年年底 對不對"},{"start":8623.855,"end":8637.758,"text":"這個部分按照那個規則他除了士兵假休假都請完之外另外還可以請延長兵假所以他最長可以請到多久這個部分因為這個部分是不是要請我要講的就是說政務人員的請假規則裡面其實非常清楚他最多可能請一年可是陳菊不一樣他也不是狹野的公務員對不對他是政務人員政務人員可以請假這麼久"},{"start":8650.8,"end":8656.501,"text":"雖然說我們不忍心看到有任何一個政務官生病請假但是他確實請假這麼長他已經也耽誤了公務公職更何況就是說我們看到有其他的一些法規如果像不管是中選會NCC的這些相關組織法如果說是委員他離病或生病等等的話其實行政院長是可以允允免職的"},{"start":8674.645,"end":8698.399,"text":"這未來的相關法制你們是不是也應該要去修正一下否則如果說我們未來的政務官長期的這樣生病他沒有辦法執行他的職務那麼其實不管社會觀感也不好而且我覺得最重要它是會影響到政務的所以這部分的話也應該要去一併的去修法也請你們要給我一份延續報告然後最後我要再講就是剛剛吳思瑤委員"},{"start":8701.417,"end":8724.195,"text":"真的叫做鬼扯一通難怪人家說他常常就是無造謠他對於法律對於憲法是一知半解所以常常就會講一些莫名其妙根本不正確的事情他剛剛講說過去在憲法大法官解釋"},{"start":8726.787,"end":8753.562,"text":"264號解釋裡面也有講到說立法院是不可以任意的提出追加預算他到底有沒有搞清楚264號解釋講的是當時是立法院做成的決議希望行政機關要求要追加預算要提高發放半個月的工作獎金這只是一個決議它不是立法院通過的法律"},{"start":8755.732,"end":8774.325,"text":"吳思瑤今天他說的剛剛講的說因為264號解釋的理由所以這次行政院跟賴清德總統認為說軍人待遇條例他是調高薪水所以不應該編列預算這樣的"},{"start":8776.846,"end":8792.692,"text":"說法是完全錯誤根本不是這麼回事這吳思瑤委員其實她雖然在立法院已經做了好幾屆的委員但是我完全看不出來她的法律素養是有進步是有漲進"},{"start":8794.042,"end":8819.033,"text":"如果說今天他要講這個事情他應該要把264號解釋好好的看清楚而不是張冠禮禮帶把根本不是這個根本不適合拿來跟這一次行政院違法不編列軍人緊銷這個待遇的還有退休金的這樣的一個預算的事情拿來做相比擬這是非常惡劣很惡質的所以就是不斷的這個造謠"},{"start":8821.155,"end":8842.515,"text":"我最后还要再强调就是限诉法的修正基本上它是跟很多国家的做法是相同的在我们过去大法官审理案件法里面也是将审理的门槛做成为宪判人员杠它的标准是三分之二或四分之三的怎么可以说限诉法是恶法"},{"start":8844.259,"end":8864.365,"text":"憲法法庭今天沒有辦法這個這個召開審理他的問題不在於限訴法而是在於沒有適合的大法官人選就連民進黨自己都不認同賴清德總統所提出的大法官這個候選人怎麼可以怪罪到說這個是限訴法是惡法所以我看到吳思瑤委員這樣子的一個發言非常不能認同"},{"start":8875.424,"end":8897.153,"text":"我必須要再講立法委員在這個質詢台上面自己要做功課多讀書不要常常去講一些五四三這個混淆是非的一些論述這個真的是有愧於身為一個民意代表身為立法委員好 以上謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":8901.901,"end":8902.962,"text":"謝謝主席 我先請那個"},{"start":8932.969,"end":8934.372,"text":"懷旭次長麻煩次長"},{"start":8939.381,"end":8962.526,"text":"前面我先呼應一下剛才翁小林委員的說法其實我想經過7.26、8.23之後其實立法院我們真的需要一個正常的立法院包含賴清德總統他不是也都訓示了嗎就說應該民生優先、經濟優先弱勢優先、青年優先可是我想民進黨黨團的幹事長"},{"start":8967.387,"end":8990.872,"text":"反而是沒有在聽也沒有在懂繼續的來做朝野之間的對立跟衝突然後自己以為自己是大法官可以來解釋憲法只是為了要去護航行政院違憲不編列由總統府已經公告的法律案這些法定的預算不編列這個才是迴憲亂政"},{"start":8993.488,"end":9016.047,"text":"我想接下來要問次長的事就是在我們公務人員的權益保障的過程裡面其中一個商調權這個是我們很多基層公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的因為我們現行的公務人員他們要調單位的時候"},{"start":9017.469,"end":9032.17,"text":"幾乎很常會碰到原單位不放人所以他們非常非常的困擾那當然這個呢他們也陳情很多次那麼也跟我們考試院詮釋部其實也反應很多次"},{"start":9032.751,"end":9047.542,"text":"所以現在我看到我們針對公務人員的任用法的施行細則現在已經預告修法回應了公務人員的商調權的修法"},{"start":9050.044,"end":9078.31,"text":"所以在修法的內容的部分第一個其實我看到的就是第21條跟21條之一的修正草案那麼就是針對特別是你在原服務機關的所在地跟你三足歲以下的子女實際居住地沒有在同一個直轄市縣市因為他要有養育"},{"start":9079.79,"end":9095.457,"text":"子女的這樣的一個責任所以他可以請掉而這裡面是可以排除就是商調權因為不然過去只要原機關不放人他也沒有辦法都沒有辦法照顧家庭也沒有辦法照顧幼兒"},{"start":9096.937,"end":9121.123,"text":"另外還有一個部分就是你在原服務機關曾受到性騷擾職場霸凌而且經認定成立的或者是依其他法律規定請商調不得拒絕我想這樣的修法的方向基本上我們支持但是在你們的"},{"start":9123.583,"end":9137.61,"text":"條文裡面又做了一些但書那這個但書呢就是說針對就是可以延長的部分也就是說"},{"start":9138.82,"end":9157.711,"text":"第一個就是當然你本來是基於你的交接上的問題你可以還是可以多留他三個月多留他三個月但是你們在條文裡面要給他一個但書就是他的過掉日期還可以再延三個月"},{"start":9158.712,"end":9176.868,"text":"也就是原來的三個月再加三個月所以就是他恐怕就是會拖長達半年之久半年之久而且這個的可以延長的狀況其實就有一些我覺得這個就有很大的行政裁量權"},{"start":9179.349,"end":9194.182,"text":"譬如說你這個當然你說搶救重大災害或緊急重大突發事件譬如說假設這一次我們南部縣市在丹納斯颱風這個重大災害的搶救也許它符合"},{"start":9195.424,"end":9219.782,"text":"但是它有所謂的辦理重大專案業務辦理季節性、週期性的工作期間所以這又給原服務單位一個很大的解釋權這一點其實對很多的基層公務人員就覺得這又有點刁難的意味就讓它有刁難的空間所以我想請教次長"},{"start":9220.743,"end":9237.021,"text":"就是針對這一部分也就是延長的部分是不是可以更加的明確然後不要讓基層的公務員認為這個很可能到時候又被刁難然後他就走不掉"},{"start":9238.032,"end":9253.528,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說後來我們在報給考試員的草案裡面對於季節性週期性工作我們這個部分已經把它刪除掉了好吧 季節性跟週期性那那個重大專案這個部分因為我們這次整個架構的設計基本上就是說"},{"start":9256.852,"end":9268.443,"text":"您提到這邊包括他有性騷擾或者是等等這些只要判決確定這個都一定有機關要很快就要讓他調走再來就是說如果你有申請過保障事件可是你在條文裡面沒有講說像這個什麼"},{"start":9270.385,"end":9288.179,"text":"职场霸凌或性骚扰确定之后你就没有这一些相关的因为我们后来这可能是公告条文后来我们确定最后报告考试院的条文部分我们对像有养育资率三岁以下等等或者你在这机关因为性骚扰"},{"start":9289.22,"end":9307.54,"text":"市長霸凌被確定成立的還有就是說你是曾經向保訓會提起互審或申訴經過確定說機關的處分要被撤銷這些人都可以不必受六個月限制就可以申請商調離開那麼在這個他不受六個月但他還是有三個月的還是 對"},{"start":9308.821,"end":9323.617,"text":"這是最長就是三個月 這是最長那我們另外在這個條文上還有做一個設計就是說如果怕 等於說一個督促性的設計機關如果說不處理它譬如說我把公文收了就一直問那我們就會讓你兩個月後就自動生效"},{"start":9324.218,"end":9339.366,"text":"就是說逼你也不是逼啦就是說我督促你一定你不處理的話這個案子兩個月後就會自動生效出去所以我們在所謂兩個月自動生效是因為我今天來商調假設我今天來商調那我一直不處理兩個月後我就可以"},{"start":9340.146,"end":9368.808,"text":"就自動視同我已經同意兩個月後掉手這個概念因為這個條文我也知道包括公務員團體還有機關我們大概在遵循各機關意見中我們希望取得一個橫評所以我們大概做這樣的一個處理大概目前就是說我也跟委員報告就是說我們不可能盡如機關的意但是也不可能盡如所有人大家都而且我知道這個當然是這個用人單位跟公務人員他們必須要一個橫評"},{"start":9369.568,"end":9385.736,"text":"所以你的意思就是說如果因為其實有些機關就很機車嘛有些長官很機車啊不報人啊那現在這樣我就不處理所以你不處理那就兩個月就自動生效你連給他延長三個月都不行就立刻他就可以調到商調單位"},{"start":9389.278,"end":9404.014,"text":"然後現在就是說那你現在最長最長就是三個月嗎三加三就最多六個月不是 那你最後那個加三加三有條件限制對啊 我知道那條件你的條件能不能更具體講一下"},{"start":9404.734,"end":9421.012,"text":"因為我剛剛就在講啊你這個有些什麼重大專案業務他到時候生出一個重大專案業務就又留你啊我們最多就是說譬如說我們雙方協調過同意的也可以那是你自己協調那再來就是說我們在依規定譬如說你是屬於那個"},{"start":9422.613,"end":9442.778,"text":"偏鄉地區或離島偏鄉地區高山坯這個我覺得我們要考慮這些地方不容易找人那另外一個就是說如果你正在辦理重大救災事務或重大專案但這個重大專案也不是他可以隨便解釋譬如說只是舉例可能我們現在正在審預算的時期這個時候因為有業務上的需要"},{"start":9443.358,"end":9469.587,"text":"或者說他可能這個只有那段時間的時候那你可以把它適當延長可是我們最多也是讓你頂多就是三個月多延長三個月那麼我也跟委員報告就是說我們這個草案在出去的時候本來我們要這樣的處理大概中央跟地方政府也都有很多的意見認為就是說應該機關要保有當然我知道這個誘人機關一定是比較抗拒的包括地方政府我們也看一下大概"},{"start":9470.488,"end":9492.566,"text":"譬如說以公園最多六都就有四都他們認為說不一定所以我們後來還是需要做一些折衷就是說希望兼顧機關的因為畢竟政府機關是上次為民服務那如果人突然間就是不確定的狀況下常常掉走也會因為走的人不是也是當天就可以補來那這個部分當然了解"},{"start":9493.607,"end":9518.315,"text":"總之要有這樣的考量因為你調走的人他剩下的工作事實上是沒有離開的人要去幫你承擔所以我們在這種情況下希望取得一個橫平就大家互相體諒很好 就是兩個要求第一個要求就是把你們現在的現有的條文然後提供給一份給我們辦公室第二個就是我剛才特別提到就是說你要有些行政裁量權那個行政裁量權不能太過的寬鬆太過寬鬆的話就變成"},{"start":9523.177,"end":9551.282,"text":"用人機關就是又不讓人走的一個理由好不好大概就最主要這兩個那另外就是說就麻煩你趕快把他那個新的條文內容我已經報到考試院就等考試院審查好可以好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員諮詢時所要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請相關機關請輸送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":9552.782,"end":9573.2,"text":"委員審發會所提書面執行均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆好 現在我們進行討論事項先做說明第二案今日警報告及詢問請議事人員宣讀討論事項第一案提案條文預估宣讀時間為9分鐘"},{"start":9576.357,"end":9601.688,"text":"好 那個各位如果需要去洗手間可以利用這九分鐘洗手間那為了方便審查如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出請儘速將書面送交主席台以利應發現場進行討論審查法案時請主要列席機關代表一致主席台正前方首長席的位置就座那如果已經收到了修正動議議議並宣讀 宣讀後即進行討論好 請宣讀條文"},{"start":9606.188,"end":9627.286,"text":"請參閱條文對照表 討論事項第一案 公務人員考機法委員邱志偉等提案第三條 公務人員考機區分如下一 年終考機指各官等人員於每年年終辦理期當年1月至12月連續任職期間之考機第二款第三款同線型條文 並增訂第二項"},{"start":9628.067,"end":9651.881,"text":"公務人員任職期間符合前項第一款或第二款規定為全無工作事實者不辦理年終考機或另於考機但經機關選送待職待薪金修者不在此限委員范雲等提案第三條除了第二款的默劇修正為而累計任職已達六個月者辦理之考機外其餘同線型條文"},{"start":9653.223,"end":9676.545,"text":"委員範圍等提案第11條各機關參加考機人員任本職等年終考機或另於考機具有左列各款情形之一者取得同關等高一值等制任用資格一年終考機二年列家等者二年終考機一年列家等二年列一等者三年終考機一年列家等另於考機二年列家等者四"},{"start":9677.125,"end":9699.692,"text":"年終考積一年列家等 一年列一等 另於考積二年列一等者五 年終考積一年列家等 另於考積四年列一等者六 年終考積一年列一等 另於考積二年列家等 二年列一等者七 年終考積二年列一等 另於考積二年列家等者八 另於考積四年列家等者"},{"start":9700.652,"end":9711.649,"text":"第二項除了倒數第二句修正為但以不同官等職等病資辦理年終考積或淋雨考積之年資其餘同線型條文考試院提案第12條"},{"start":9713.581,"end":9736.782,"text":"各機關辦理公務人員平時考核獎懲獎勵分加獎技工技一大功成儲分升屆技過技一大過於年終考機時並計年級並計成績增減總分平時考核獎懲的互相抵銷而無獎懲抵銷而累積達二大過者年終考機英烈一等"},{"start":9737.703,"end":9758.103,"text":"專案考積與有重大功過時行之其結果依下列規定依一次計二大功者進本縫一級以達所需值等本縫最高級最高縫級或以續年功縫級者進年功縫一級均給予一個月縫級總額至一次獎金以續至年功縫最高縫級者給予"},{"start":9760.205,"end":9779.135,"text":"二個月奉集總額至一次獎金但在同一年度內再因一次季二大工辦理專案考積者不再進敘奉集改改給二個月奉集總額至一次獎金二一次季二大過者免職三前項第一項"},{"start":9780.316,"end":9799.102,"text":"一次即二搭工之標準應於施行細則中明定之專考即不得與平時考核獎懲相抵銷公務人員除在同一考進年度內曠職繼續達四日或累計達十日應於一次即二搭過者外非有具體施政足認有下列情形之一者不得為一次即二搭過處分"},{"start":9800.262,"end":9824.819,"text":"第一款至第五款 同限制條文第一款至第五款六 因服用酒類或適用毒品等至不能安全駕駛動力交通工具且發生交通事故致人於死或重傷或致人死傷而逃逸違反有關法律規定七 對他人為性侵害經有關機關或依法組成之相關委員會查證屬實但經檢察官提起公訴者"},{"start":9825.339,"end":9845.978,"text":"英語一次記二大過處分8.對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾使其遭受身心不法侵害情節重大至受害人重大身心創傷或死亡9.對他人為自場霸凌使其遭受身心不法侵害情節重大至受害人重大身心創傷或死亡10.脅迫公然侮辱或"},{"start":9847.259,"end":9863.899,"text":"誣告長官情節重大 十一 挑撥離間或破壞紀律情節重大 十二 違反有關法令規定致嚴重損害政府或公務人員生育 傾向第七款人員經不起訴 還起訴處分或無罪判決確定者 應撤銷其一次即二大過處分"},{"start":9865,"end":9886.585,"text":"公務人員之違私行為經主管機關或所權之所屬機關任屬一次計二大過者懲處權行使期間為十五年屬計一大過者懲處權行使期間為七年屬計過戶或身屆者懲處權行使期間為五年前向期間自違私行為終了之日起行為屬不作為者"},{"start":9887.245,"end":9894.152,"text":"自作为义务消灭时起算但行为之结果发生在后者自该结果发生时起算"},{"start":9896.82,"end":9920.214,"text":"各機關對公務人員所為之懲處經相關救濟程序撤銷並由原處分機關定為司法之處分者懲處權行使期間自原懲處被撤銷確定之日重新起算但上開案件部分撤銷原因系原懲處是由已遇懲處權行使期間者該等懲處是由不重新起算懲處權行使期間"},{"start":9922.95,"end":9936.659,"text":"委員王宏威等提案第十二條第一項序文的默劇及第二款的默劇及第三項的手續中的左列均改為下列之外其餘同線型條文第三項並增列第九款第十款"},{"start":9939.527,"end":9965.424,"text":"對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾時期遭受身心不法侵害情節嚴重對他人為職場霸凌時期遭受身心不法侵害情節嚴重並申訂第四項第五項受考人除平時考核獎懲相互抵銷後無獎懲抵銷而累計計二搭過年終考機因考列疑等者外須有具體施政 主任在考進年度內屢有下列情形"},{"start":9966.144,"end":9982.43,"text":"一 一再勸導無效經綜合考評後已不適任者 實得免職一 因駕駛動力交通工具涉嫌違反中華民國刑法第185條之3規定經檢察官起起公訴或因不依指示停車接受檢測"},{"start":9984.632,"end":10002.805,"text":"檢測稽查或拒絕接受檢測等違反道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條第四項規定二對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾時期遭受身輕不法侵害情節嚴重三對他人對他人為職場霸凌時期遭受身輕不法侵害情節嚴重四挑撥離間或"},{"start":10003.966,"end":10029.454,"text":"無控濫告 情節嚴重 影響機關和諧重大不聽指揮或破壞紀律 情節嚴重 影響機關紀律重大戴護之手 羈言公務或績效不彰 造成嚴重不良後果 影響機關績效重大效能重大 負責業務處置適當 造成嚴重財務或人員損傷 影響機關運作重大洩露因保守之機關秘密或因秘密事項"},{"start":10031.235,"end":10052.808,"text":"情節重情節嚴重影響器官利益重大9濫用職權整肅異己尋思不公情節嚴重影響公務人員權益重大10違反行政中立或其他公務人員有關法令規定情節嚴重影響政府信譽重大11品德操守惡劣工作表現或服務態度極差或有其他嚴重"},{"start":10053.228,"end":10081.386,"text":"不称职情事第一项第一款人员所涉部分违法案件似经无罪判决确定者应予检讨是否撤销其太除考级并重违考级考级委员会对于拟一前项规定予以考列太除案件应有全体委员三分之二以上之出席出席委员三分之二以上同意使得决议委员吴佩义等二十人提案"},{"start":10082.762,"end":10098.278,"text":"第12條對照考試員提案第一項序文修正為各機關辦理公務人員平時考核獎懲及專案考機分別依下列規定並增訂第一款平時考核及第二款專案考機"},{"start":10100.925,"end":10124.592,"text":"修正第二項前項第二款第一目之一次計二大公之標準應於實行細則中明定之專案考記不得與平時考核將成相抵銷第三項修正第三項的序文修正為非有具體事證足任有下列情形之一者不得為一次計二大過處分一到八款同考試院提案九"},{"start":10126.216,"end":10154.79,"text":"礦值繼續達四日或一年累計達十日者第十款同考試院提案第九款十一 脅迫公然侮辱或誣告長官情節重大有確實證據者十二 挑撥離間或破壞紀律情節重大有確實證據者十三 違反有關法令規定致嚴重損害政府公務人員生育以下第四項至第七項均同考試院提案委員範圍等提案第十二條對照考試院提案除將第四項第八款修正為"},{"start":10156.294,"end":10185.834,"text":"八對他人為性騷擾或跟蹤騷擾情節重大第九款修正為對他人為職場霸凌情節重大及第六項修正為公務人員之為委事行為經公主管機關或授權所屬機關認屬一次計二大過者懲處權行使之間為二十年屬一屬計一大過者懲處權行使期間為十年屬計過或申請者懲處權行使期間為五年其餘通考試院提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":10186.326,"end":10186.35,"text":"好"},{"start":10191.664,"end":10218.857,"text":"好 條文宣讀完畢 現在進行討論第一案繼續併案審查考試院函請審議公務人員考記法第十二條條文修正草案等五案本案經一百一十四年八月十四日本會及本會第二十四次會議報告及詢答完畢決議另定及繼續審查 原因今日繼續審查請問在場委員是否要先進行大體討論或直接進入主條"},{"start":10221.087,"end":10222.549,"text":"好 直接進入主條 謝謝好OK 好"},{"start":10234.137,"end":10255.115,"text":"我們繼續進行逐條討論我們共計要處理的是三案我們現在先看排序一 第三條有邱志偉等21人提案范雲委員等17人提案請問各位委員有沒有意見要提出范委員"},{"start":10257.301,"end":10283.006,"text":"第三條它涉及到就是我們請育嬰假等的公務員的升遷權益因為過去的制度規定令嬰考機必須連續任職滿六個月才能計算那我收到不少陳情而且幾乎都是女性的公務員那他們請了育嬰假可是因為工作累積已經滿半年卻因為不是連續六個月直接被排除考機資格"},{"start":10284.746,"end":10305.395,"text":"這樣的規定等於在懲罰那些為家庭犧牲的經常會是女性的公務員未來後半就是生產或是育嬰之後的一個申簽其實我想政府一直在遇到就是要鼓勵大家值家平衡我們有這樣的設計既然他們可以請的話"},{"start":10308.976,"end":10326.885,"text":"那未來其實也是不分性別那賴總統也有這樣的一個鼓勵的政策所以我建議就是說我們第三條把連續六個月改成累計六個月也就是說只要你實際工作滿半年不管中間有沒有留置停薪都可以拿到考積"},{"start":10327.705,"end":10345.14,"text":"那這就是保障基層公務員不要因為他照顧家庭然後最後他的職涯後面就被犧牲那之後的一個起點就不平等了以上好 謝謝 請問其他委員有沒有意見要提出"},{"start":10346.752,"end":10368.84,"text":"好 翁委員這邊我想請教那個考試院就是說因為剛剛范雲委員講的這樣的一個情況那在實務上面會不會有一些公務員他可能請運駕一個月然後之後他又回來上班然後之後又請一個又請了這個就他的請假他是中段的分開請的那像這樣的情況的話"},{"start":10371.021,"end":10399.157,"text":"如果還是可以讓他們辦理烤雞會不會影響到跟其他的工作同仁的烤雞的這個公平性對 我只是想要請教說在食物上有沒有類似遇到像這樣一個狀況跟委員報告一下因為這種情形就是說如果它大概在食物上是會發生但是因為如果說我們考慮的是說假設我們現在政策是討論的是育嬰的這樣的一個概念的話當然這在立法政策上面把它做適當的調整"},{"start":10400.998,"end":10419.711,"text":"我們部裡面基本上是認為這個也許委員可以再大家一起來討論一下就是說如果是要行修一個友善環境的這個角度來看的話因為請育嬰他不見得一次就會請一年或請兩年他可能會視當時的狀況像像我們比較理解就是說通常都會在前半年會就是生育以後請完那個"},{"start":10421.212,"end":10448.789,"text":"產駕以後會接下來可能連續請三個月育嬰假或者是請半年的育嬰假那有可能他在帶小孩過程中可能也許保母一下子沒辦法找到或等等他會變更這個這個在實務上的確是會有的可是如果說現在這樣子的修改的方式的話就是他不管是請育嬰假或是其他的假可能都會一併的考量對不對試假或者是"},{"start":10450.484,"end":10472.076,"text":"是的 所以說如果說未來要把這個把這樣子的概念如果說要修法的話直接通過另一考機因為他請假基本上是還是在職期間他請假期間是在職期間所以他這個情況應該是是留職停薪的狀態才會有這種情形要留職停薪才會這樣"},{"start":10479.629,"end":10505.048,"text":"請問那各機關有沒有補充好都沒有嗎其實就全區部這邊是支持這樣子的一個修法嗎我們當然是可以的那再來至於說這個第二項這我們是已經有全區部已經有另事就是說這種沒有工作事實是不用另考記所以這一個條文我們可以整理一下等一下送給各位再看一下"},{"start":10507.771,"end":10533.99,"text":"你是要把范委員的第二 第二項第二款做一下處理還有既然這一項要處理那你們現在趕快弄上來我們看一下好不好 謝謝他應該是指邱委員邱委員的第二項啦趕快拿一下同仁已經在發了 謝謝是把現在的命令寫在法律條文上面我們同仁有處理"},{"start":10541.693,"end":10561.856,"text":"修正動議 這邊有修正動議 那我們先請議事人員唸出來修正動議第三條公務人員考期區分如下然後第二款"},{"start":10564.275,"end":10583.723,"text":"連續修正為累計然後增訂第二項公務人員任職期間符合前項第一款或第二款規定為全無工作事實者不辦理年終考機或另餘考機但經機關選送待職待薪進修者不在此限 宣讀完畢"},{"start":10590.097,"end":10602.989,"text":"好那請問各位對於這樣的修正的文字有沒有什麼意見沒有那因為這個修正東西並沒有簽名那是不是如果大家都沒有意見的話是我們在上面簽名就好"},{"start":10614.141,"end":10619.826,"text":"就是文字修正當作是文字修正建議然後我們都同意的話就在上面簽名"},{"start":10686.155,"end":10715.458,"text":"那補宣告提案人部分提案委員 王宏威 吳思瑤 陳培宇王逸川 翁曉琳 范雲 吳宗憲 宣傳閉好 那請問各位委員我們就依照委員王宏威等六人所提的修正動議通過 大家是否同意同意好 那就依照修正動議通過好 那現在審查排序二第十一條范雲委員等十七人提案請問在場各位委員有沒有意見補充 好 范委員"},{"start":10717.268,"end":10734.909,"text":"這一條是承接剛剛第三條的修正讓在同一年度內雖然任職未滿一年但是累積有六個月所進行的剛剛那個令雨考積也能夠和一般的年終考積一樣有甲乙丙等而且能夠進入升等資格"},{"start":10735.73,"end":10754.777,"text":"舉例來說未來不管是年終考積一年甲等還是令於考積兩年甲等它都一樣其實只是說有一個平等的具備升等的資格這樣才公平為什麼會提這個也是我過去遇到的一些陳情包含遇到一些非常優秀的女性外交官"},{"start":10755.537,"end":10771.03,"text":"他就因為曾經有請過育嬰假後來在升遷的時候發現會有一個不公平的對待我想如果我們鼓勵不管是性別平等或者是不分性別大家能夠有這樣的空間的話"},{"start":10773.312,"end":10787.497,"text":"這個部分好像不應該在他請了這個假之後在升遷上感覺到就是受到不公平的對待那這其實只是一個平等的機會也不代表他就真的能夠有很好的升遷以上請問各位委員有沒有意見要補充請機關這邊回覆"},{"start":10799.229,"end":10817.103,"text":"謝謝 這個部分我們大概也看過一個換委員提案的說明他是因為留職庭制的考機有好幾種狀況有一種可能他是受到拘獄或罰金判刑確定後然後異乎勞役在留職留庭的那另外或是受刑事宣報確定判決並准許那個異乎社會勞動的"},{"start":10818.624,"end":10844.824,"text":"還有他可能是受到撤職休職啊免職處分的那種臨時中斷所以我想就是說委員的這個意見應該指的是說如果你是像類似育嬰流子停薪的部分所以我們希望說要就限縮在這個範圍內因為不然其他撤職現在拿來作為那個感覺怪怪的那另外一個部分就委員這邊有提到就是那個考積甲乙等的這樣分算的方式總共列了八款"},{"start":10845.424,"end":10865.19,"text":"但是這八款我們部裡面看過是說在實務執行上太複雜了那我們有一個建議的修正條文是不是可以給各位委員看一下我們就請你們focus在育嬰留庭的部分然後後面簡化它因為我也看這個漏漏的不知道要怎麼來"},{"start":10885.58,"end":10888.142,"text":"沒問題因為這樣寫就是第二項針對育嬰留職停薪辦理之令與考積嘛然後就分什麼什麼層級"},{"start":10905.734,"end":10918.672,"text":"可以啊 職務上面各個執行機關他也比較能夠快速理解提案委員同意的話我們現在就簽一下如果各委員同意的話那我們是不是就直接簽名"},{"start":10953.036,"end":10974.123,"text":"好請議事人員宣讀修正動議二第十一條各機關參加考積人員任本職等年終考積具有下列各款前嫌之一者取得同官等高一職等職任用資格一兩年列家等者"},{"start":10975,"end":10996.915,"text":"二 一年列家等 兩年列儀等者 前項所稱本職等年中考積 指當年一月至十二月任職期間均認同一職等 辦理之年中考積欲因留職停薪 辦理之另於考積 兩年列家等者 視為年中考積 一年列家等"},{"start":10997.915,"end":11013.034,"text":"一年列假等一年列疑等或兩年列疑等者視為臨終考積一年列疑等前項以外另於考積及以不同官職官等官等職等"},{"start":11013.783,"end":11015.784,"text":"提案委員 吳思瑤 陳培宇 范允 黃王威 吳宗憲 宣讀完畢"},{"start":11043.389,"end":11072.105,"text":"好 謝謝喔 請問各位委員我們對於我們委員吳世堯等五人所提的修正動議有沒有其他意見好 那沒有的話我們就依照修正動議通過那我們現在審查排序三第十二條有考試院提案委員王宏威等十八人提案委員吳佩義等二十人提案委員范瑩等十七人提案來 請問在場委員有沒有意見要補充好 王宏威委員"},{"start":11074.228,"end":11091.812,"text":"主席各位委員我想這個第12條的修正其實應該就是源自於就是之前我們勞動部北區勞動分署謝怡榮他霸凌造成我們的公務人員死亡的這個案子所衍生的"},{"start":11095.093,"end":11120.31,"text":"所以在我們的這些可以記到兩次大過裡面就是我們在條文修正就是針對你在職場有關於有霸凌當然可能大家的文字不一樣譬如我們現在考試院的版本如果它嚴重甚至造成重大的"},{"start":11121.671,"end":11125.113,"text":"情節重大事實上或造成什麼身心創傷或死亡我的文字就是情節嚴重我想基本上我不會太追究或者堅持在文字上的Wording的使用主要是針對有關於有在職場霸凌的部分"},{"start":11144.344,"end":11151.911,"text":"那我們在這一次的修法裡面呢也把除了職場霸凌之外也把譬如說像是有性騷或跟騷而且也造成受害人身心的不法侵害這樣的情節重大者"},{"start":11164.502,"end":11189.833,"text":"那裡面也包含我們最近所發生的酒駕或者是獨駕的這個事件那也把它列入那我剛才也看到應該也是我們這個權敘部把這個相關的這個文字做了一下整理我想待會我們主要看一下就是這個文字把它整合如果是符合我們修法的意旨跟原則的話"},{"start":11191.254,"end":11194.338,"text":"我個人會予以同意 以上 謝謝好 范委員"},{"start":11199.015,"end":11219.063,"text":"我的12條版本也是因為就是其實社會知道大多數公務員是認真努力的那但是就是說少數有重大為師的人那社會也會有很多的批評所以我們如何能夠在獎懲的部分可以把這些大家有共識重大為師的公務員讓他可以被"},{"start":11222.004,"end":11244.903,"text":"適當的處置我想對維護整體認真工作的公務員的形象非常的重要跟社會的一個尊重我的版本就是把酒駕致死性侵害就是屬實還有嚴重性騷跟嚴重職場霸凌放入這部分就是我看到院版也有接受事實上就是說不管是新聞2013年林務局公務員酒駕"},{"start":11247.785,"end":11275.857,"text":"逃逸的部分還有我自己處理的陳情案就有警戒的管理階層的人他後來行政調查是性侵屬實可是因為在懲戒方面沒有條文可以處理最後受害者覺得沒有辦法就是只能讓他做某種程度的調職所以我們也看到這個法如果修法的話能夠讓大家感受到更能夠保障多數認真工作的公務員以上"},{"start":11279.192,"end":11307.215,"text":"好 翁委員好 我看到那個考試院這邊提出的版本那我有幾個問題第一個就是說因為依考積法一次借兩大過免職的公務員那麼事實上他是不能夠在任對不對對不起 他可以在任對 他可以在任公務員 對不起那麼再次懲戒法的免除職務的公務員是不得在任是那你現在就是說你考積法的這個免職的追溯期效限是15年"},{"start":11308.806,"end":11320.733,"text":"但是在公務員懲戒法裡面的撤職是沒有時效的限制所以這個未來會不會出現一個不太公平的一個狀況"},{"start":11325.069,"end":11352.478,"text":"因為撤職的話撤職還是可以有在任因為他撤職還有一段期間不得任用他的撤職比考機法上的免職限制的更多他大法官把那個懲戒法案去做成那個撤職的時候他會同時宣告一定期間不得任用那考機法這邊的專案考機兩大過免職並沒有這樣的一個限制要看有沒有那個新機關願意用這個被一次計二大過免職的人"},{"start":11353.078,"end":11357.436,"text":"所以我們的那個時效才比陳介華那邊稍微短一點"},{"start":11359.22,"end":11386.719,"text":"所以基本上來說你們認為不會造成不公平的狀況還有另外一個問題就是說你們在這裡講到在第八項的懲處時效重新起算的規定裡面有個但書部分撤銷原因因為原懲處事由已經超過懲處權行使期間請問一下你們可不可以舉個例子來說明這是什麼樣的一個概念部分撤銷原因因為原懲處事由已經於懲處權行使期間"},{"start":11387.62,"end":11411.099,"text":"我報告一下就是您說要舉個例子譬如說有一個人他已經超過10年以上那我們機關還是給他處分了那處分的結果他會尋譬如說保訓會行政法院最高刑去救濟那後來救濟結果他們說你這已經超過的追訴期間你怎麼還處分就被撤銷如果是屬於這種那當然就"},{"start":11412.14,"end":11433.676,"text":"我們要排除這種的我們目的是要排除這種就是說我處分你的時候早就預約了懲處期限那當然會被第三方的司法機關或保訓會幫你撤銷說你這個是超越了時間所以這不應該懲處他我們這是因為要有這個但書才能夠cover掉這個狀況是 跟您報告 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這個我不知道講這是第幾項好多項第一項第二項第三項第四項等一下我看一下第四項第五項"},{"start":11561.881,"end":11582.943,"text":"第5項你們是前項第7款但書人員經無罪判決確定嗎你們原來的條文是前項第7款經不起訴還起訴處分對不對這個差別說一下"},{"start":11585.096,"end":11608.775,"text":"因為上次的那個審查會法務部有提出說因為這個第七款他有兩種不同情況一種是行政機關調查另外一種是檢查機關直接提起公訴了那兩種情況如果針對檢察官提起公訴那一塊屬於刑事案件到最後無罪判決確定我們就會把"},{"start":11609.895,"end":11635.114,"text":"因那一款被兩大購免職的那一部分撤銷至於行政機關調查他本來如果是有罪的話我們行政機關那一塊還是維持所以他這一次修改的只是把那個依照法務部那個意見把那個但書人人把它加進去就只有那個提取公訴那一塊而已那應該是OK啦應該是OK啦就參採法務部的建議"},{"start":11636.861,"end":11652.942,"text":"其他的部分就是其实重点是在我们的几个样态处罚的几个样态烤鸡处理的几个样态酒驾毒驾性侵性骚跟骚然后霸凌"},{"start":11653.715,"end":11677.62,"text":"然後再加一個你們第12款就是一個比較general違反有關法令規定制嚴重損害政府公務人員生育等等我基本上是覺得應當都有含括幾位委員關切的部分所以我是個人是可以支持可以支持這個修正動議看看大家謝謝好那請問各位委員還有沒有意見要補充那機關這邊呢沒有"},{"start":11755.433,"end":11764.217,"text":"好請宣讀修正動議3第12條除第5項修正為前項第7款但書人員經無罪判決確定者"},{"start":11773.815,"end":11801.454,"text":"應撤銷其一次計兩大過處分與同考試院提案條文 全讀完畢提案委員 王鴻薇 吳思瑤 陳培宇 翁曉琳 范雲 吳宗憲 全讀完畢好 謝謝好那請問各位委員我們是否就依據委員王鴻薇等六人所提修正動議通過好 大家都同意嗎好 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我依發言次序介紹第一位"},{"start":2140.046,"end":2169.084,"text":"台師大大眾傳播研究所王維京教授第二位TVBS新聞台新聞網總編審范麗達總編第三位原治大學周韻彩教授第四位世新"},{"start":2170.942,"end":2193.723,"text":"廣播電視電影學系何吉生副教授第五位中華民國衛星廣播電視同業工會陳一美秘書長第六位成大政治系"},{"start":2204.833,"end":2221.64,"text":"第七位東吳法律系張坤聖講師第八位輔大法律系姚孟昌助理教授第九位"},{"start":2223.191,"end":2250.641,"text":"中正大學 世衛福利系 林煥生助理教授第十位 友哲法律事務所 廖國祥律師第十一位 台師大大眾寵物研究所 李全和律師不對這是教授"},{"start":2257.475,"end":2265.782,"text":"這名單寫錯了大衡國際法律事務所李全和律師列席官員有"},{"start":2283.737,"end":2305.479,"text":"行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處楊志傑副處長還有國家通訊總部委員會綜合規劃處溫俊宇處長人事室陳恢芬主任"},{"start":2315.113,"end":2338.823,"text":"針對本次公聽會發言的次序做以下宣告剛才大致上有宣告過了那我們後續的發言就是第一點學者專家1000道順序發言每位發言時間為8分鐘請用您右邊的發言台發言台正前方的燈號是倒數計時"},{"start":2340.809,"end":2356.53,"text":"發言時間結束前一分鐘會有提醒聲一聲發言時間結束時則會提醒兩聲主席台也會按一長臨再次提醒發言時間結束請各位把握時間"},{"start":2358.1,"end":2382.278,"text":"第二點 第一輪發言結束後如有需要補充說明再進行第二輪發言第三 學者專家兩位發言後如有本院委員到場就穿插一位發言每位委員發言時間五分鐘第四點 委員發言請先到主席台登記"},{"start":2385.748,"end":2406.73,"text":"第五暫定10點半休息10分鐘第六本次會議是公聽會不選打不處理委員提案那現在請第一位王維京學者教授發言"},{"start":2422.303,"end":2435.576,"text":"主席還有大家好我今天大概從兩個面向來切入包括這個NCC當前的問題以及我對這個NCC當前問題的一些解決方向的建議"},{"start":2439.658,"end":2458.252,"text":"就像大家應該非常了解就是台灣的新聞媒體的市場媒體數量真的非常非常的多競爭很嚴重加上數位廣告的收益又長期被跨國平台壟斷所以媒體的廣告收入持續的下滑"},{"start":2459.052,"end":2486.743,"text":"在這樣的結構底下其實許多媒體現在就是轉向置入行銷乘坐政府的標案或者是甚至依賴政治特權炒作土地開發這些方式來求生存這個現象我們叫做媒體尋租它其實導致了政媒共生的勾結也削弱了新聞媒體監督政府它的獨立的第四權功能"},{"start":2487.823,"end":2515.014,"text":"媒體的尋租行為也使得NCC很容易淪為被媒體的管制俘虜加上大法官的4至613號公佈以後NCC的委員都是由行政院長提名主委副主委也是由院長指定所以某種程度機關的決策確實容易受到行政權跟特定媒體的利益的影響這樣會威脅NCC的獨立性"},{"start":2517.575,"end":2522.125,"text":"那缺乏獨立性的NCC其實他是沒有辦法去落實他公正跟專業的這個監理的職責"},{"start":2526.943,"end":2555.122,"text":"好 那第二個問題NCC創立的時候已經就把這個電信跟廣電的傳播監理職長把它合在一起了那當初的理由是預期說電信會跟傳播會數位匯流那實際上這麼多年過去了我們看到除了中華電信的MOD以外其實實際上並沒有出現電信業跟傳播的這個數位匯流那數位匯流主要是在這個網際網路的這個領域"},{"start":2557.724,"end":2582.124,"text":"傳播內容的監理因為它是涉及第四權它需要獨立機關的保障可是電信產業的管理跟發展它比較接近產業政策的範疇不必然一定需要獨立機關的監理可是這樣的安排使得NCC比較偏向於監管它也缺乏資源投入產業的發展形成現在這種重視監理 輕發展"},{"start":2585.868,"end":2599.923,"text":"這些輔助跟獎勵的這些措施它分散於文化部跟數位發展部使得這個事權不統一政策思維偏向管制也壓抑了電信跟內容產業的創新跟競爭力"},{"start":2605.42,"end":2624.275,"text":"剛剛提到了就是說數位匯流其實是在網際網路領域NCC受限於它的法規卻沒有辦法去監管網路的傳播同樣的服務內容對廣電產業還有數位網路其實出現差別的管制待遇的"},{"start":2626.887,"end":2639.736,"text":"傳播跟電信業務放在同一個合一制的獨立機關其實常常導致它的效能比較低落NCC目前大概只能用管制鬆綁鬆綁這個監理作為產業輔導工具其實這並沒有辦法真正推動產業的發展"},{"start":2648.517,"end":2668.174,"text":"NCC其實也遇到它的獨立監管角色跟它行政職能的衝突因為剛剛講大法官的四字解釋案NCC它雖然是獨立運作監理媒體內容可是它必須要受到行政體制的制約被要求要跟行政院行政一體運作"},{"start":2669.395,"end":2696.593,"text":"那在法治上只有保障這個個案裁決是獨立的可是政策事項又歸行政院管轄可是實際上實務上個案跟政策的界線是非常模糊的所以當遇到重大個案的時候常常就會成為這個政治力介入的這個場域所以這種監管跟行政職能的混淆其實它某種程度也削弱了這個NCC獨立監理的落實跟它的這個社會信任"},{"start":2698.573,"end":2721.743,"text":"所以這個問題的總結就是包括像媒體尋租正媒共生它削弱了新聞媒體跟NCC的獨立性那監理跟產業發展的失衡造成這個重監理輕發展那廣電跟數位管制的落差使得這個網路內容的監管是真空的那獨立監理跟行政職能的衝突也削弱了NCC的獨立性"},{"start":2723.732,"end":2748.193,"text":"好那以下建議一些改革的這個或問題的解決方向好我們建議就是把真正涉及新聞自由的內容監理個案跟一般產業政策應該區隔那前者也許可以交由這個獨立的真正獨立的內容裁決機關來處理那關於政策的部分回歸行政體系來處理"},{"start":2750.578,"end":2759.145,"text":"好那可以參考這個英國的ofcom或者是韓國kcsc就是設立專責的內容監理單位專門來處理這個節目違規換照評鑑以及網路內容的違法處置那產業政策則由行政體系來統籌這樣也可以解決合議制對這個效能較低的這個問題"},{"start":2780.044,"end":2795.77,"text":"對NCC委員會的組成的部分因為外界其實過去有諸多的疑慮所以也許也可以考慮導入推薦制或比例代表制確保委員的來源多元避免單一政黨的壟斷"},{"start":2797.171,"end":2819.192,"text":"主委副主委的部分也許建議可以回歸委員互選或者至少副主委的部分仿照韓國的案例其實副主委的部分是可以互選的這可以減少行政院的直接控制在預算部分也應該要確保它的預算獨立穩定使得專業判斷不受到政局的干擾"},{"start":2822.042,"end":2851.073,"text":"好 那政府透過這個標案以及這個置入影響媒體的狀況越來越嚴重那我們應該要要求政府主動統計並公開各機關他們的媒體採購還有置入的預算金額以及他很重要的他最終的媒體露出那這是強化這個政府資訊公開法的這個執行那確保這個公帑使用是透明的以及避免這個正媒的共生"},{"start":2854.534,"end":2870.833,"text":"好那我們也希望說電信跟傳播的這個監理應該要分離了因為現在其實很多電信的業務已經轉到速發部了那這個事權分散導致這個政策的一致性不足那也提高了這個行政成本跟決策的這個摩擦"},{"start":2873.623,"end":2889.511,"text":"也希望說可以推動新聞溢價跟基金立法去解決媒體對政府標案跟不當置入的依賴減低正美共生的現象鞏固台灣的新聞自主跟民主制度的發展"},{"start":2890.852,"end":2914.219,"text":"最後結語就是希望確保NCC的獨立性避免受到行政跟財團的干預並重新建立社會的信任也借盡國際的經驗設立專門的內容監理單位其他大家也講過了好像也有附在資料裡面就請大家參閱 謝謝"},{"start":2919.305,"end":2929.251,"text":"好謝謝王偉金教授我們現在請第二位范麗達總編審主席在座的各位老師們大家好我是TVBS范麗達第一次發言"},{"start":2946.921,"end":2957.17,"text":"NCC它雖然主管廣電媒體跟電信產業兩大部分不過因為受限於我個人所需所以我今天發言的內容會只聚焦在廣電媒體這一部分請各位見諒"},{"start":2959.1,"end":2977.389,"text":"NCC從2006年2月成立到現在將近20年前面的四位主任委員包括說蘇永清、彭雲、蘇衡、石氏豪都可以說是法學界或者是傳播學界的太斗非常有聲望也非常能夠秉持獨立機關的精神來維持NCC的運作"},{"start":2978.59,"end":3000.3,"text":"他們對於廣電媒體的監理尺度可能寬延不一可是沒有人能夠否認他們所帶領的NCC真的是獨立運作不受外界的干預可是好景不長到了第五屆換了詹廷宜擔任主委的時候被我們當時的行政院長蘇貞昌罵說誰都管不到他也什麼都不管結果最後他含恨辭職"},{"start":3001.681,"end":3012.222,"text":"那時候的副主委溫柏中才代理兩個月不到然後就說他健康因素就請辭了請辭之後後來換陳耀祥接任後來情況變什麼樣大家都看得到"},{"start":3014.209,"end":3038.321,"text":"NCC從此江河日下被民眾稱為張嘻嘻那更妙的事情是後來陳耀祥從代理主委徵處的時候原本身體不好的翁伯中意外又康復了而且又變成了副主任委員然後後來又差一點變成代理主任委員所以這健康因素很妙你看徐國勇本來健康因素在蘇貞昌的時候辭職現在又好了對不對 這很奇怪"},{"start":3039.241,"end":3044.152,"text":"那我們就覺得說這個NC為什麼會這麼樣不得人民的信任呢而且我們也看到說"},{"start":3046.007,"end":3072.298,"text":"很多卸任的NCC委員他們在民間辦的論壇裡面對NCC的抨擊那個炮火之猛烈的就會讓我想到說奇怪他們在在任當NCC委員的時候為什麼都沉默不語呢為什麼他們卸任了之後良心就回來了 理性就回來了就敢說真話了呢我們的NCC是什麼樣扭曲人格的體制可以把這些學者的良知擠壓變形到這種的程度"},{"start":3073.243,"end":3089.858,"text":"那我在想我觀察這20年來的NCC我覺得說NCC至少要做到以下幾點才算是勉強符合我們業界的期待第一個它一定要重新恢復獨立機關的運作絕對不能夠受到來自上級或外界的干預或壓力"},{"start":3090.979,"end":3107.529,"text":"我想美國聯準會的主席鮑爾的風骨非常值得我們NCC的委員效法川普已經不止一次說要開除他可是他還是挺立到現在我們NCC第一屆副主委時事豪他當時是民進黨推薦的可是他就任之後他就公開說"},{"start":3109.005,"end":3129.258,"text":"我雖然是民進黨推薦的可是我不是民進黨的黨員我沒有必要遵守民進黨的決議我希望未來NCC的所有委員都能夠有這樣的精神這樣的話NCC才能夠重拾民眾的信任感第二個對於廣電媒體內容的監理力度應該要予以鬆綁"},{"start":3130.663,"end":3159.608,"text":"在數位匯流的時代相同的內容不只出現在無線有線的電視上面還會同步出現在網路上面可是同樣的內容出現在電視上面的時候會被NCC用違反廣電三法重罰可是在網路上面就無法可罰我希望NCC不要再抱殘守缺只想守著自己的一畝三分地對於力所不及的網路你就示弱網文這種拒絕法式執政方式只會加重民眾的不信任感"},{"start":3160.248,"end":3180.418,"text":"以及我們內容產業的業者的困惑今年第一季的有線電視的收視戶已經下降到433萬戶是連續30季就是7年半的下降那NCC如果沒有辦法去阻擋這樣的趨勢但是可以想辦法怎麼去減緩它而不是說"},{"start":3181.619,"end":3203.39,"text":"用不同力度的管制然後把所有的觀眾都從電視趕到網路去因為大家會覺得我們在網路上我們才會看到最不受管制最完整的內容我們在電視上面的電視新聞看到出現一塊又一塊的馬賽克以及充斥整個鏡面上的警語這些都是我們廣電業者寒蟬效應的例證"},{"start":3204.551,"end":3231.761,"text":"身為民主國家的廣電監理機關看到這種現象他難道不會慚愧嗎為什麼電視媒體業者會擔心受怕到這種程度呢為什麼他們永遠會覺得動輒得救呢我們希望NCC能夠去學一學看看美國的FCC他們對於廣電媒體內容的管制是非常非常的寬鬆是非常高度尊重言論自由的這個才是我們NCC最該效法的地方"},{"start":3233.052,"end":3258.902,"text":"還有衛星電視頻道不應該成為有限電視系統業者跟頻道代理商之間競爭下的籌碼不管是以前的新聞局時代或者是現在的NCC時代有限電視系統的業者夾著優勢地位動輒對於我們衛星電視頻道的業者用斷訊 移頻的方式來處理然後來要挾頻道代理商完全不顧及我們收視戶的權益還有市場的秩序"},{"start":3259.722,"end":3286.92,"text":"最近TBC對於TVBS歡樂台還有Discovery八大第一台 八大綜合台驟然下架影響了62.8萬戶的收視戶權益對於這樣的亂象NCC只有開發200多萬可是對於TBC一個月三四億的進帳200多萬算什麼呢他們根本不痛都不癢所以NCC對這種現象他應該要拿出具體的措施要不然的話以後市場會群起效尤"},{"start":3287.816,"end":3307.334,"text":"另外NCE對於廣電頻道業者的聲色可以重研但是對於換照對於評鑑應該要重寬我們如果國家的政策認為說我們所有的未廣電視頻道它應該要有總量管制的話那你對於新興業者的聲色你可以拉高門檻重研審查"},{"start":3307.995,"end":3327.984,"text":"可是對於已經得到執照的這些業者基於信賴保護原則還有鼓勵企業的永續經營在申請換照或者評鑑的時候不應該要刁難或動輒要求我們業者要提供海量的文件提供審查我拿109年的那個廣進業者的評鑑為例109年的評鑑案到111年NCC才做出評鑑的結果112年就要換照了耶"},{"start":3336.087,"end":3356.784,"text":"拖了两年然后凭借处分的时候又加了一大堆不合理又不合法的付付款然后严重的侵害我们这些企业的公司治理范畴其实很多学者都呼吁NCC要改善这种劳民伤财而且没有实役的监管方式可是NCC都置若罔闻这个东西一定要改进"},{"start":3357.765,"end":3383.892,"text":"另外NCC的行政怠惰還有機關失能不能夠成為妨礙業者發展還有人民權益的藉口靜電是在2020年成立然後升設程序到2022年才獲得同意然後到2023年6月才被核准上架86台我們想請問一下有哪一家公司經得起政府機關折磨三年才通過它的審查的"},{"start":3384.505,"end":3410.268,"text":"之前還有更多家廣電業者要申請董監事更換NCC要審查一年多那去年12月開始NCC委員因為只剩下三位沒有辦法開大委員會去決議重要事項然後NCC從此就都會放話說無線電視台的執照到期如果沒有辦法換照的話你們民眾你們就看不到無線電視了然後說Apple的手機沒有辦法審了以後大家有沒有辦法買到新的Apple手機等等"},{"start":3410.888,"end":3433.779,"text":"可是我們想一想如果業者提出了換照申請手機業者提出了心肌檢驗你NCC因為你自己的人數不足沒有辦法去審查這是你NCC自己要解決的問題你不能把這種不利益加諸於這種沒有責任的業者身上更不能因此影響消費者的權益NCC這種行為是變相的恫嚇百姓想要逼迫民眾在野黨就範"},{"start":3434.699,"end":3454.661,"text":"可是呢 政治惡鬥應該止於廟堂之上不應該波及無辜的百姓更不應該綁架人民以遂行自己的一己政治利益謝謝各位好 謝謝范教授 我們現在請劉淑彬委員"},{"start":3471.98,"end":3493.51,"text":"主席洪孟凱委員還有在場的各位專家學者早安那今天針對行政院長所提出的NCC四位委員的這個提名呢本黨呢提出了一個適任性的質疑跟一個深切的關注以上分別針對了蔣榮鮮陳明修黃薇薇跟羅惠文四位"},{"start":3499.353,"end":3504.418,"text":"被提名人的背景及可能的利益衝突來提出台灣民眾黨對於NCC委員資格的公正職責的立場跟訴求首先提名作為主任委員的蔣榮鮮教授他在資訊科技專業當中卓越"},{"start":3518.354,"end":3533.142,"text":"那長期也參與到產學的合作涵蓋到製造業 電信業跟醫療的服務業那他在學術及工部門的研究是這個為主但是缺乏了直接跟廣電或通訊監理實務的這樣的經驗那我們的疑慮有下面的"},{"start":3537.725,"end":3562.057,"text":"其協助了數百家的這個企業做數位轉型也涵蓋了多數的這個NCC監理的產業對象那監理跟產業輔導角色呢利益是交錯著可能影響對業者的這個監理的嚴格控管那蔣教授呢他應該主動的在說明是否曾有私人利益往來要避免私人立場衝突"},{"start":3564.378,"end":3590.111,"text":"此外在集資訊科技專長若過於技術導向的時候也可能會忽略到傳播產業多元利益跟他的政策平衡再來我們看看的是副主委的被提名人陳明修教授他是我在東吳大學的法律系的同事同時他在公開資料當中顯示出來他是登記為是中國國民黨籍"},{"start":3590.911,"end":3599.276,"text":"那我們知道這部分是沒有看到說政黨有直接利益關係那他也沒有直接參與過通訊的這個跟媒體的這個產業不過他在多個政府部會跟製造業擔任職務那也包括擔任獨立董事"},{"start":3607.361,"end":3627.499,"text":"那他擔任的兩家公司是製造業如果他就任那兩家公司如果未來涉及到在交通通訊模組等領域跟NCC監理業務存在的利益的這種交叉關係的時候他應該事先的要揭露他說明並避免要利益的這樣的衝突"},{"start":3629.641,"end":3642.612,"text":"黃薇薇教授長期服務於廣播跟影視媒體董事會跟諮詢委員會尤其她是現任的遠東廣播公司的董事並承認華視跟NCC等監理單位的監理對象的職位"},{"start":3649.258,"end":3677.935,"text":"他的多項的限職跟媒體業者的密切利益他也曾經參與過NCC委託的研究案跟政策的制定亦被質疑說成為業者的門神所以可能會影響到監理公正第四位羅惠文教授他曾任華視及公共電視的董事並長期的擔任新唐人亞太電視倫理委員會的主任"},{"start":3679.187,"end":3703.48,"text":"還有多重媒體董事會職務引發利益衝突的疑慮那他直接參與NCC的政策調查跟產業的監理研究造成自己規劃自己執行有這樣的疑慮會產生那如果沒有辦法在審查時嚴格的揭露他的利益跟管控的狀況他監理的公信力也恐怕會送損"},{"start":3704.961,"end":3724.319,"text":"那台灣民眾黨的這個立場是非常明確的行政院呢他刻意延誤了NCC的委員的這個提名也放任NCC的這個長期懸缺導致的監管失能那故意的延遲到這個7月底大罷免結束第一端結束後才送出在近半年"},{"start":3725.16,"end":3736.067,"text":"媒體特意帶風向朝政治明顯操作的時候呢造謠抹黑在野黨不盡其術那NCC呢他自己就損害了他自己獨立的這個監管形象"},{"start":3737.72,"end":3766.479,"text":"總括而言對這次本行政院所提出來的名單有提出的以下不適應的理由最主要在於四位學者他們都是學術跟法律的背景出身或者是與媒體監理對象關係密切且對於業者有私人職位上的關係將影響客觀中立尤其是羅霍元教授他承認進電視新聞台籌備期間的新聞自律委員會倫理委員會的主任"},{"start":3768.541,"end":3789.278,"text":"政策執行跟監理角色的重疊這一次的提名它忽略了媒體管理及產業治理的實務政策的能力存在的隱憂提名程序也不公開多為政治考量它會損及到NCC獨立的專業形象民眾黨在這邊就呼籲"},{"start":3790.379,"end":3817.195,"text":"第一個NCC的委員應該嚴守法定的資格跟公正職責不符資格或有利益衝突的應該主動的來撤回那個提名那第二點NCC應該恢復獨立公正監理的功能針對假新聞媒體所有權透明還有境外資金監管的問題提出具體的方法來守護民主言論自由跟資訊的安全"},{"start":3818.707,"end":3838.209,"text":"第三點在委員會當委員他應該具備跨領域的產業實務經驗並來維持政治中立避免跟政黨有利益干預監理決策第四點NCC的提名跟監理過程應該要透明有公眾參與的情形建立來社會信任"},{"start":3839.95,"end":3847.694,"text":"總而言之四位被提名人有著這種不適任的疑慮行政院應該審慎的評估保障NCC作為一個獨立機關監理機構的使命才不會淪為政治工具謝謝劉委員我們請原治大學周運才教授"},{"start":3879.951,"end":3893.581,"text":"主席以及劉委員跟洪委員還有在場的各位學者專家早安那麼今天剛我希望開頭的時候我們先從NCC委員人"},{"start":3894.301,"end":3917.527,"text":"的ACC委員應該有的一些素養跟他對於政策的熟練度來開始那麼主要的原因是因為我們在二十七基金會我們常年關注著這個這NCC的一個相關議題以及我們也學者專家共同擬了一份草擬了一份問卷我就把這個問卷的一個主要的內容跟大家分享一下"},{"start":3925.669,"end":3954.32,"text":"那主要的原則我們堅持要嚴審跟實質審最重要原因是因為NCC不能再空轉了我們不希望有完全不了解電信通訊產業的不管號稱是學者還是專家來擔任然後讓NCC的同仁再陪委員讀兩年書以後才開始當書童然後才開始理解政策的意義所以一定要確定我們現在就是"},{"start":3955.14,"end":3977.887,"text":"面臨到NCC這幾年有重大的一些整體的這個社會科技的一個變遷他必須要馬上能夠去處理相關的事宜所以是不容許有上手磨合新手的磨合時間所以我們主張嚴審跟實質審確定委員是馬上能夠上手的我們才予以通過所以NCC不能要不適任的委員"},{"start":3982.452,"end":3999.413,"text":"那麼我們這邊有幾個相關的一個議題也就是說第一個在速發部成立以後NCC其實有些業務是跟速發部重疊的那麼新上任委員對於如果對於其他部會的不作為譬如說速發部對媒體溢價法"},{"start":4000.134,"end":4014.549,"text":"對數位中介法的一個不作為那麼SEC是可要求行政院重新協調歸納的業務的主管機關甚至包括像歐盟已經推動了Data Act那麼考慮到消費者的權益是否應該要主動立法"},{"start":4015.049,"end":4034.93,"text":"第二在於最重要的NCC因為速發布之後其他最重要的一個業務是廣電相關的一個業務那麼剛剛其實在場的學者專家也都提起來了那麼對於廣電的部分主要的部分是不是能夠去鬆綁包括黨政軍三分之一的上線媒體上下架以及"},{"start":4036.031,"end":4057.078,"text":"媒體執照的核發這個頻道執照的核發造成了目前全部大塞車的一些狀況那麼再來還有對於OTT所謂的串流影音平臺的一個差別待遇是否要做奇異化的一個管制以及長年以來就是有限電者的一個擔心的盜版問題要怎麼去處理"},{"start":4057.498,"end":4084.386,"text":"第三個雖然電信的業務已經相對減少了但是現在最讓業者叫苦連天的就是電信打炸那麼這個所謂號稱KYC把大家都這個所有的一個之前對於國際電信的一些通訊網路其實都引起那其實打炸它是一個一條邊的從真正的內容源頭是不是數位平台而不是傳輸源那麼要怎麼去處理這個問題這是NCC必須面對的"},{"start":4087.407,"end":4115.459,"text":"那麼所以從這幾個角度我們來看所以從這幾個角度我們來看我們就會發現就是提名人這幾位提名人的他們在相關的一些意見陳述裡面送立法院的一些關係文書其實很多議題都是老舊而已經其實是不存在的已經事過境遷所以我真的很懷疑他是不是用AI去search然後來checkGBT生成的"},{"start":4116.399,"end":4138.911,"text":"關西文書第一個譬如說幾位幾位平民人都提到媒體壟斷法事實上現在已經是媒體其實跟立法院正式創造是一個嘲笑也大就是說正規的就是有線電視已經逐年在萎縮而事實上沒有被納管的數位平台不斷的滋長那麼他們衍生的相關議題"},{"start":4139.972,"end":4160.675,"text":"已經不是過去的所謂的媒體防治法能夠處理的然後他還是在講那第二個對於數位落差這個部分已經不在於實體或是傳輸好設備的一個數位落差而是資訊素養但是候選人的對不起提名人在幾個提名人都有提到這個議題"},{"start":4161.816,"end":4175.533,"text":"還有 那麼還有提名人提到網路中立性這個也是在台灣已經不存在的議題因為其實在所謂的All you can eat之下其實沒有所謂網路中立性的一個需要那甚至在"},{"start":4178.119,"end":4198.639,"text":"一位提名人裡面提到要推動本國影視產業的振興以及這個這其實是應該是文化部的職責所以到底NCC怎麼樣去推動影視文化這個其實是讓我非常納悶的所以這顯示到幾位這個提名人其實對於NCC目前的執掌並沒有那麼深入"},{"start":4199.119,"end":4219.504,"text":"而可能是從CHAT-GBT但大家知道CHAT-GBT有幻覺所以這個有可能是因此而產生了一些問題所以其實我在這邊我希望對於這四位的提名人我其實有幾個綜合的一個看法第一個也就是一個疑問 兩個遺憾第一個疑問也是針對這個陳明修被提名人"},{"start":4226.306,"end":4248.062,"text":"那在陳提名人的這個資料上顯示他其實是在目前包括行政院訴認委員會其實有各個機關的眾多的訴認委員那照理來說應該對法規行政法規有相當的熟練那麼如果陳委員上任之後面對到現在最大的一個這個"},{"start":4250.484,"end":4276.267,"text":"一攬子的一個訴願最大的苦主就是中天那麼在中天從一審二審總共加起來已經有26次NCC敗訴的一個記錄那麼作為一個訴願委員的一個法學素養他是不是贊成法院的一個見解那如果不贊成他有什麼更強力的理由要去讓上訴駁回所以是不是那個"},{"start":4277.408,"end":4291.826,"text":"陳委員能夠秉持法律專業能夠立委教教按照法院的這個令維釋法之處置所以這個是我不無疑問的以他的一個法學素養第二個兩個遺憾第一個遺憾是針對講"},{"start":4295.11,"end":4319.286,"text":"提名人那麼蔣教授其實他是在AI領域尤其包括智慧醫療的領域有相當的一個貢獻但是這聽起來是比較接近經濟部跟數法部的權責其實我真的應該建議就是這個卓內閣應該是提名蔣教授當數法部部長可能會比NCC主委更適合"},{"start":4320.166,"end":4342.646,"text":"最後一個遺憾來自於羅惠文教授那麼羅惠文教授其實大家在這個最這個官新聞書可以看到他多陳述多年的好就是接這個是NCC的一個計畫按照理來說是應該對NCC的一個尤其是從數位平台有有線電視好等等已經是觸及到一些核心業務了"},{"start":4343.547,"end":4362.432,"text":"可是從這個關係文書中看到的就是他對於所有的問題都是輕描淡寫只有說應要立即去做這個對媒體有產生相當的威脅應該要去做針對不到內容傳播去做推動的議價"},{"start":4363.752,"end":4389.39,"text":"但是如何議價那是不是支持媒體議價法其實他就疏而不略所以我是覺得會蠻遺憾的這些並應該是瞭解的但是對於整體的NCC的這個建言其實是輕描淡寫所以我覺得在這邊也懇請立法院立法滾滾出宮應該要秉持著專業的意見來審查這些提名人的事格性 謝謝"},{"start":4395.151,"end":4407.891,"text":"好 謝謝我們請下一位世新大學何吉生副教授"},{"start":4417.965,"end":4436.076,"text":"主席 劉委員 洪委員 還有我各位學者專家 大家早我今天以放下政治意志 積極面對通產產業困境為我的等一下要說的主題來跟大家分享我對NCC委員提名的看法那"},{"start":4437.93,"end":4458.524,"text":"Ok 大家可以知道說在以一個傳播政策 公共政策的關係那我們可以分為政治層級 司法層級跟司部門層級那尤其政治層級的部分行政跟國會之間的一個對NCC無論在人事還有委員"},{"start":4459.645,"end":4486.672,"text":"提名就委員提名還有相關的法案預算這一邊都有絕對的影響力但是不要忘了對NCC站在一個獨立管制機關他在私部門層級的部分尤其產業的發展因為NCC就是一個管制機關所以大家一直一直在等NCC的一個意見一個確定法律方向"},{"start":4488.193,"end":4502.449,"text":"應該整個產業應該往哪邊走有絕對的影響關係那當然間接影響到就是我們的消費者在現在的所謂的數位匯流網路發展這個當然就影響非常大所以呢"},{"start":4502.829,"end":4530.951,"text":"在這邊尤其政治層級我這邊用倒三角形來看影響到整個NCC的一個穩定發展那這邊行政院還有國會的運作兩邊怎麼樣的合作這個影響會非常大那現在我們可以看得到因為NCC目前的委員人數沒有達到所謂的委員總額過半數這邊我說所謂的委員"},{"start":4532.953,"end":4549.822,"text":"總額過半數剛剛我們對面的廖律師有稍微討論過因為說真的這一邊並非沒有解釋空間那很可惜NCC把它做一個嚴格的解釋他這一邊把它當作一個要法定總額"},{"start":4550.742,"end":4572.442,"text":"所以現在法定總統就是說七位那現在就只有三位就不夠所以就會造成現在的NCC的三位主委然後現在主委跟帶跟跟的這邊能夠去討論的只有能夠召開諮詢會議而且只有二十三列那其他的有關通傳業務的公告案"},{"start":4573.183,"end":4594.941,"text":"許可案尤其包括營運計畫變更 換照 基本頻道 異動等等最近很多爭議的案子就是在於這一邊然後造成剛剛也有我們學者專家提到的一些亂象所以NCC目前是沒辦法處理大家知不知道今年上半年一共有37家廣電事業執照到期"},{"start":4598.246,"end":4612.639,"text":"然後執照到期按照規定你沒有拿執照就不能營運頻道事業沒有拿執照系統業者是不能播頻道的內容結果我們NCC竟然花一個行政指導"},{"start":4613.34,"end":4632.67,"text":"要求系統業者請你們審酌消費者權益然後持續播送未獲執照的頻道那這種就是一個執法的亂象也就是說用行政指導突破法律的限制它的效率跟法理基礎在哪邊"},{"start":4633.61,"end":4654.293,"text":"那尤其是目前有16家的無線廣電事業也是面臨沒有辦法換照不要忘了這個無線電視無線廣播無線電視事業的執照本身是要有頻譜的所以未來NCC沒有花給執照然後要求是不是要求速發部花給一個頻譜這個就"},{"start":4655.754,"end":4678.267,"text":"完全跟法律沒辦法結合在一起顯然已經違反了依法行政的原則因為平埔畢竟是國家稀有的資源怎麼可以隨便用行政機關的行政解釋就擅自核發這個也會讓樹化部跟NCC的樹管本身產生一些個違法的問題"},{"start":4679.83,"end":4688.988,"text":"那在這樣的一個將近一年多來從去年年底一直到現在已經快十個月那為什麼NCC"},{"start":4690.188,"end":4709.473,"text":"之前有說怕擔心一些事情但是有一些業務還是能夠持續的進行這一點我真的要肯定NCC事務官在處務協力底下依照專業在事務在框架底下努力讓業務不停擺這個還是要給予肯定但是"},{"start":4710.313,"end":4729.203,"text":"本來NCC站在一個監理機關應該給產業一個方向結果應該可以做得更好100公尺只能夠跑60公尺其以有關ITC產業我們面臨國際的競爭然後未來的方向要哪邊走說真的行政院應該要積極面對這個問題我跟各位報告再過七個月"},{"start":4734.67,"end":4753.328,"text":"再過八個月連現在的三個委員都要重新提名了因為他們這三個委員到明年七月底的任期也到了但難道說到時候行政院仍然擺著這一個事情不去面對嗎那這個如何對於"},{"start":4756.03,"end":4762.695,"text":"整個通傳產業去交代所以行政院在這邊應該積極面對這個問題當然怎麼積極面對的這個問題那當然面對現在政黨未過半的憲政現況是不是對於提名單應該要先經諮詢協商再提出來避免空轉"},{"start":4774.564,"end":4800.77,"text":"再來也有人提出來說現在三位能不能盡快先通過一名委員至少照NCC現在的說法用所謂的法定委員過半數的一個情形至少還可以運作再來有沒有可能參考美國FCC美國FCC現在是七人改為五人"},{"start":4801.07,"end":4823.138,"text":"跟各位報告美國FCC五人現在他們有幾位委員在任座只有兩位但是有聽到說美國FCC的運作政策有受到影響嗎並沒有還有當然如果大家NCC還是認為要採用嚴格解釋那我們就將現行的委員總額改為現行"},{"start":4824.498,"end":4839.244,"text":"就是委員總額就明白說清楚就是現行委員總額那這一部分就可以透過國會讓整個運作可以原則上我就是認為說行政院跟國會應該積極面對這個問題去解決那對於未來委員因為NCC畢竟是獨立管制機關所以我會從專業性跟獨立性"},{"start":4849.427,"end":4869.914,"text":"來提出我的幾個建言在專業性的部分面對台灣媒體記者的社會信任度很低落怎麼去加強媒體自由獨立跟多元性我想問一下委員你的看法怎樣未來委員你的看法怎樣還有為了防止媒體編輯決策受政治的政策政治的干擾"},{"start":4871.334,"end":4897.995,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的具體的策略還有對於政府的廣告宣傳經會的分配機制最近常常出現很多不透明不公開不公平的看法那對於這一塊想聽聽未來委員你的看法還有對於大型網路平台審查並刪除媒體內容廣告紛亂機制雖然是有給事劃部去處理但是NCC你的態度是什麼"},{"start":4898.775,"end":4920.449,"text":"還有對網路平台業者透明度機制有何具體意見至於在獨立性的部分NCC已經陷入重大的信任危機剛剛幾位學者專家都說有人說從會除NCC打掉重練甚至於斷捨離但是也有人認為NCC不是制度的問題而是人的價值信念問題"},{"start":4921.249,"end":4950.159,"text":"所以面對NCC的信任問題想要聽聽委員你的看法是怎樣還有對於現行NCC執行狀況被外界提出質疑我們認為想要聽聽未來的委員你認為有哪些應該斷掉哪些應該捨去但是還有哪些應該重建這個是我的幾點建議 謝謝謝謝何教授現在請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":4959.469,"end":4982.43,"text":"主席各位出席的專家學者我想剛剛您聽我們四位專家學者的一個意見以及我們本院的劉委員的意見其實大家都很關心很重視國家通訊傳播委員會應該就是要做到當初設定的宗旨促進通信傳播健全發展維護媒體專業自主並保障人民知的權利"},{"start":4983.03,"end":5006.233,"text":"我想開宗明義我也一樣先肯定一下過去這一年多的時間我們NCC的行政同仁讓業務沒有停擺並且讓國家持續的能夠運轉這應該要給予肯定值得國人的一個掌聲至少沒有看到iPhone沒有辦法買到至少沒有看到Switch沒有辦法上市但是這樣子一個謠言跟這樣的謊言從誰的口中講出來"},{"start":5006.974,"end":5017.034,"text":"NCC的委員口中也因此國家真的不需要再由政府機關來帶頭造謠而一年沒有補人更是莫名其妙"},{"start":5018.675,"end":5046.187,"text":"去年的7月31號四位委員到任的時候我們當時就已經要求說去年4月陳建仁院長要卸任之前NCC的委員提名是要尊重新任的政府還是由原本的院長來提名而當5月20號卓榮泰院長就任之後我們在總諮詢期間持續的請教他到底這四位陳建仁院長所提名的委員您願不願意背書或您認不認為有專業的考量"},{"start":5047.207,"end":5069.343,"text":"當時拖了三個月說要再研究名單最後三個月過去了告訴我們要原用原本的名單但是實際上時間就持續的拖過而到12月因為立法院三讀通過再繼續調整要求委員不得續任後長達半年的時間沒有提出新任的名單"},{"start":5071.307,"end":5087.769,"text":"這些都是大家可以在網路上或說在相關新聞上可以看到的如果說連行政部門應該依法來提出提名而送來到立法院審查但是當名單都沒有辦法提出審查長達一年時間沒有補人那立法"},{"start":5089.551,"end":5105.04,"text":"機關又如何能夠審查呢行政部門的怠惰政府部門的怠惰就是失職所以我想這一個部分為什麼會到7月31號整整一年的時間才有千呼萬喚使出來世衛委員的名單並且我們現在再來做討論"},{"start":5106.061,"end":5131.067,"text":"那當然我在這邊也承諾所有的今天專家初期的專家學者大家今天所提出來的意見也都非常的好未來我們在立法院做審查會的時候我也一定會秉持各位今天所提出來意見方向來救教提名的四位NCC委員而其中我也對於四位提名的NCC委員有三大期待第一我期待他們能夠未來嚴守對獨立機關的專業性"},{"start":5134.688,"end":5160.155,"text":"過去四年如果說我們真的有做一個民調的話全台兩千三百五十萬人可能最沒有辦法信任或是最不滿業的政府機關前三名會有一個是NCC有一句話說得好是面子是別人給的但臉是自己丟的為什麼NCC從當初設定獨立機關超然自主健全媒體發展到現在會變成是國人普遍沒有辦法信任或是沒有辦法接受"},{"start":5161.255,"end":5189.802,"text":"不要雙重標準就是我認為NCC未來這四位委員都應該要一視同仁的我們可以尊重每個人都有言論都有信仰自由都有政黨自由都有政治立場既然如此我的想法每一個媒體也可能會有政治立場但是你不能身為一個獨立超然的機關對待不同政治立場的媒體的時候有雙重標準第二"},{"start":5191.109,"end":5210.358,"text":"新聞自由跟言論自由的嚴守以及對於市場的公平性這一點就是我們講到審照換照絕對不能成為閒置言論自由或是言論審查的一環而另外一個部分大家剛剛也都提到了其實現在的市場是包羅萬象的"},{"start":5211.619,"end":5239.104,"text":"系統台 頻道商 OTT業者 網際網路甚至未來還有AI的發展每一個其實都是非常龐大而且非常多元的一個面貌NCC在這中間的角度我個人的看法你就應該要維持最基本的市場公平性不能偏廢任何一方但也不能給任何一方諸多的限制跟壓力而導致於它的競爭力受限"},{"start":5239.904,"end":5257.256,"text":"有一句話也說得很好生命自然會找到出路我們維持一個最基本的一個公平性讓各自尋求發展自然市場業者自然市場民眾就會用他自己手中的遙控器來決定後續的發展以及最後"},{"start":5258.257,"end":5270.215,"text":"社會責任的參與主動性我想這一點是在於最近這段時間看到7月6號的颱風而造成一個多月南部的風災南部的風災當時我們記得通訊"},{"start":5274.541,"end":5300.004,"text":"這個行動業者是由NCC管理的但是過去一個月了還有南部的鄉親他是沒有行動網路的長達一個月的斷訊我記得當時我在這邊來質詢NCC的代理主委的時候他一個月後才跟我們講是說他們會開會來討論什麼時候可以啟動緊急的漫遊讓地方民眾能夠回復通訊一個多月過去"},{"start":5301.005,"end":5324.796,"text":"我當時更希望的是不要因人設施定出標準也許之前我們沒有看到因為颱風而造成通訊的一個狀況但是既然現在有這樣的狀況定出一個標準未來什麼樣的範圍多少互通訊失聯以及多少的基地台沒有辦法發揮功能的時候就應該啟動所謂的互用衛星"},{"start":5325.876,"end":5347.232,"text":"漫遊啟動的一個狀況而不是因人設施否則我們如果說有這樣的一個制度或這樣的一個SOP的話就不會看到當總統下鄉去視察災民的時候講出那個經典名句郭國文的可以啊其他的不行啊所以不要因人設施也不要因為"},{"start":5349.042,"end":5374.347,"text":"沒有影響影響少而不理他或者說不要因為今天新聞多新聞淡而有行政機關不同的一個標準我想這也是政府部門應該要做的非常重要的一點簡單來說三大期待對於嚴守獨立機關的專業性對於新聞自由言論自由跟市場的公平性還有社會責任的參與主動性"},{"start":5374.947,"end":5399.85,"text":"這是我期待未來NCC的委員能夠負起責任的我們一樣專業審查嚴格把關適任的合理的名單我們絕對沒有阻攏的理由但如果說不適任的或者是大家外界普遍認為他是不符合NCC獨立機關期待的話我們也會勇敢的投下反對票但最重要的是行政部門應該要"},{"start":5402.091,"end":5425.688,"text":"積極的提名真的符合大家所期待的NCC委員讓我們國家持續往前邁進台灣是我們共同的所以我們一起努力希望讓我們國家越來越好感謝謝謝孟凱委員我們請陳一美秘書長"},{"start":5441.142,"end":5457.312,"text":"謝謝主席然後也謝謝今天各位來這裡讓我們身為NCC所主管的業者一個很重要的在國內的產業然後有機會來表達我們的心聲那因為本會從去年113年3月"},{"start":5460.594,"end":5475.262,"text":"113年10月跟今年的8月都分別發表過相關的聲明稿那本會就在此把我們共同意見做一個會診然後向各界表達我們的這個盼望以及若干的請教"},{"start":5476.102,"end":5498.311,"text":"那首先我們誠懇的呼籲各界因應現在我們國家的政治的心局我們誠懇的欲請各界尊重媒體專業自主我們也呼應剛剛前面非常多的講者其實大家一致的期待都是專業自主那也就請各界也尊重還給我們媒體一個專業自主的空間"},{"start":5499.212,"end":5521.241,"text":"那第二個科技發展迅猛是已經不爭的事實也是很大的挑戰我們STBA在這裡也懇盼我們在身為廣電內容產業在NCC作為主管機關對我們的政策和相關的法規能夠盡快的給予數位調適已經刻不容緩了好麻煩下一頁我自己"},{"start":5522.577,"end":5547.206,"text":"那訴求一我以下有四點訴求第一個誠懇的預請就是回歸專業本會今天以整體產業的角度為全體會員發聲本會鄭重呼籲懇請各方能夠放下政治立場和對立還給媒體專業自主的營運空間回歸到國家通傳基本法和組織條例讓本屆的NCC委員的領選能夠是根據專業的本位來產生的"},{"start":5552.088,"end":5579.661,"text":"能夠維持NCC專業獨立的監管機制那NCC設置的宗旨明文規定包括以下這幾點容我把它一一的調列出來第一個就是促進通訊傳播健全發展依法獨立行使職權落實憲法保障的言論自由維護媒體的專業自主有效辦理通訊傳播管理事項確保通訊傳播市場公平有效的競爭"},{"start":5581.102,"end":5607.405,"text":"綜合以上本會期待這一次能夠在國家發展的高度來進行這次的審查案NCT提名的委員也都我們懇盼能夠尊重媒體產業言論自由作為最重要的前提能夠積極提升行政效能能夠協助產業健全的發展第二訴求"},{"start":5608.655,"end":5635.187,"text":"也懇請這是刻不容緩要盡快去做數位調適通訊傳播科技的變遷非常快速即便數位匯流時代其實目前還有很多棘手的問題還有待有效的歸管包括像詐騙或所謂網路上的非常多的惡用的情況但是AI海嘯其實卻已經席捲而來了它不會等我們的本會已經再三的疾呼我國的廣電內容產業法規"},{"start":5637.228,"end":5651.546,"text":"始終沒有能夠與時俱進網路業者早就加入內容市場的競爭卻沒有受到相同法令的監管數位匯流時代的內容市場早就是去疆界化是海量化的高度競爭本會的會員在廣電法規的規矩下卻動輒得救難以施展"},{"start":5655.811,"end":5671.4,"text":"唯恐限於裁罰祭典 評鑑不合格 撤照等等等不穩定的狀態然而網路業者卻是不受規管的形成一個變相的不公平的競爭即待我們各界來重視和解決"},{"start":5672.381,"end":5690.466,"text":"又因為針對廣電業者的監理目前所有的一個監理機制而產生了相當惡意操作的檢舉更是形成無限上綱的惡性循環不僅無益於我們產業的發展更影響我們我國媒體去追求創新進步的腳步"},{"start":5692.026,"end":5709.555,"text":"本會在此鄭重的呼籲應該要盡快讓過時的內容規管營運規管能夠進行數位調適我們懇切的期盼這是NCC被提名人無可迴避的責任下一頁 謝謝是我自己按對不對"},{"start":5711.876,"end":5731.171,"text":"訴求三就是內容有價使用付費這裡我想各位也都知道我的會員是跟國家拿執照的我們所用的每一分取之於台灣就是用之於台灣本會其實早在113年去年的10月就跟報業工會還有無線電視台等等跨媒體的產業工會發表過共同聲明"},{"start":5736.355,"end":5762.731,"text":"呼籲各界正視數位浪潮之下內容有價使用付費這樣子的一個新興的議題因為數位浪潮之下所帶動的就是零元的一個濫用我們在聲明中就主張新聞媒體是民主的要素尤其重要不容我國民主要素被弱化而這也是全球的趨勢跟見解大型科技平台它本身是沒有去產製新聞沒有產製內容它沒有記者"},{"start":5765.333,"end":5787.583,"text":"沒有作者 他沒有到現場採訪他卻無償使用大量我國媒體產製的新聞以及各種內容憑藉免費的利用我們的內容進行搜索 搜尋 社交互動 傳送甚至近期的發展已經包括了AI的索引資料訓練等等AI服務的利用"},{"start":5788.283,"end":5807.904,"text":"大型科技平台因此而吸引了人潮收集了數據還獲得廣告的投放盈利營收上它優先是上繳境外的母公司原本我們這些在地媒體取之於台灣用之於台灣再投入的正循環因此而鍛煉"},{"start":5808.965,"end":5816.152,"text":"我國的媒體產業土壤遭到掏空跟異化了我國在地專業人力與勞動條件優質新聞的產制數位的轉型穩定的營運等等等難以為繼近兩年來AI應用服務迅猛發展確實已經對我國傳播環境造成衝擊不可以忽視"},{"start":5829.924,"end":5853.129,"text":"不論是AI大型語言模型資料庫的訓練生成式的索引摘要服務或者所謂的RAG知識蒸餾 代理AI等等的利用行為以及可能的發展對我國傳播產業的影響和因應的方案我們懇切盼望都應該成為本屆通傳會以及被提名委員要重視並且積極撥劃的議題"},{"start":5857.779,"end":5881.284,"text":"最後一點我們要誠懇拜託跟大聲疾呼要給我們一個頻道產業良性的營運環境本會的會員是受國家通訊主管機關用執照制度來加以兼理的我們產業的良語和行政的效能是息息相關的尤其在頻道營運這樣重要的事項上"},{"start":5882.694,"end":5899.482,"text":"通傳會的委員應該要導引和去形塑一個優質穩定的營運環境避免我們這個頻道產業的資源不斷耗損或是在營運上持續陷入一個不確定的狀態剛剛TBS的這個范編審他也講了很多的案例"},{"start":5900.422,"end":5916.51,"text":"那本會的頻道長期投入大量的心力和資源採集 製播多元內容來服務觀眾我的會員各種類型都有有新聞 有綜合 有綜藝有行腳 有紀錄有電影 有體育我們每天誠懇的"},{"start":5918.411,"end":5940.357,"text":"自投入內容我們有一位理事就形容我們就是耕田的水牛啦耕田的水牛然而通路商跟代理商不好意思再爭取一點點時間好不好通路商跟代理商之間的攻防手段常常受擠壓的是我們頻道的生存空間和消費者的權益這幾年其實斷訊的消息耳語就頻傳甚至本次這個8月6號大斷訊事件發生到現在超過三個禮拜還沒有復訊"},{"start":5944.438,"end":5960.563,"text":"令人深感遺憾和憂心本會會員頻道的評鑑 換照 評位的上下架等等事項事關重大它牽涉到觀眾權益以及頻道產業可不可以良性的來維運本會預請主管機關和被提名的委員在審酌相關案件的時候應該要堅定的鼓勵和維護對內容持續投入的頻道業者"},{"start":5968.806,"end":5988.852,"text":"要儘快依相關法規 進行審查程序並作成決議本與專業的行政效能導引優質穩定的頻道營運環境這樣才真正能夠提升收視戶的福祉而且使我國的廣電產業逐漸朝向正面來發展以上謝謝大家好 謝謝陳秘書長我們請王一范教授"},{"start":6002.967,"end":6015.385,"text":"等一下我補介紹一下現在那個第12位韓翔衛教授有到了不是賴翔衛教授好謝謝那我們請那個王教授"},{"start":6016.537,"end":6044.073,"text":"主席各位學者專家先進各位媒體女士先生大家早安大家好我是成大政治系的助理教授王一范今天很開心能夠來到交通委員會對於NCC人事同意權發表一些意見因為我是一個公共行政的學者所以我基本上會從政策面來做一些議題上的討論當然這些議題可能也跟其他行政院的部會有關聯不過因為今天主要談的是NCC所以就提供一些意見供各位來做參考"},{"start":6045.353,"end":6061.021,"text":"基本上我個人的研究的專長就在人工智慧上所以我今天會從AI開始談AI這個名詞其實是從1950年就已經開始了但是它真的到比較蓬勃發展大概都要等到2010年代特別是在2015 2016之後"},{"start":6063.082,"end":6077.516,"text":"那個時候的AI還比較屬於是判別式的AI也就是它根據它收到的各種資訊去做各類的分類最常見的就是過去的影像辨識包括所謂的科技執法大概都是這類傳統型的AI但是大家都知道在2023年"},{"start":6078.917,"end":6099.623,"text":"ChatGPT問世之後那個時候的AI呢就是在所謂的生成式AI越來越多那所謂的生成式AI跟傳統的AI差在哪呢就是它可以去產出很多原創性的文字原創性的圖片甚至是原創性的影音所以在現代的這個時代你可以看到很多網路的影片都是用所謂的這個生成式AI產出的"},{"start":6101.123,"end":6122.754,"text":"這個就會延續後面有很多的議題包括說他闡述的這些影片是不是真的基於事實可以讓大家做理性討論或者是這些相關的內容是不是足以促進我們的民主治理的發展所以今天我要談的主要是AI大概有兩個點第一個是社群媒體的演算法社群平台的演算法另外一個就是深層式AI的內容"},{"start":6123.334,"end":6147.951,"text":"那所謂的這個社群媒體的AI的演算法會影響什麼呢它基本上就是影響我們所有的社群媒體的使用者他會看到哪些資訊像某一些的社群平台他可能是給你一些你想看的資訊就是說他會依照你的偏好去推薦一些資訊給你看那這個時候就會產生很嚴重的所謂的這個同溫層的效應也就是你只會活在你認為的這個世界裡面"},{"start":6149.432,"end":6175.383,"text":"但是有一些的社群媒體它基本上就會讓不同的意見甚至是多元更加對立的這些內容產出在你的塗鴉牆上面這個時候你就會看到很多不同的資訊當然好處是可以促進民主政治的溝通但壞處也是民眾可能看到這麼多的衝突的資訊久而久之就對這個感到厭煩不想看反而對於所謂的民主治理也會有一定程度的影響所以"},{"start":6176.824,"end":6193.404,"text":"另外一個部分是我們剛剛談到生成式AI生成式AI可以產出很多的影片這個時候既然是它可以自動生成有的時候它的資訊恐怕沒有那麼的正確或甚至是相關的內容值得商榷在這個狀況下如果產出的影片不是依照事實"},{"start":6194.025,"end":6209.411,"text":"所產生出來的那甚至是會去影響整體民主治理上或者是網路上公共討論的品質也就是你依照一個不存在的東西在進行討論這樣子對於整個所謂的社群媒體的發展或者是民主治理的發展都不是一個好的影響"},{"start":6210.151,"end":6238.128,"text":"所以當然這個就是用甚至是AI做出來的圖片也就是說我們談AI在社群媒體上正面的效益上它當然是可以讓民眾更加快速的得到各種不同的資訊但壞處是如果民眾基本上沒有具備有足夠的所謂的媒體識讀的能力的話很多時候可能就會謠言一傳十 十傳百不只是透過所謂YouTube在傳播Facebook在傳播有時候你的Line或者是個人的聊天室都會有相關的問題"},{"start":6239.068,"end":6263.365,"text":"所以這個是在社群媒體上我們必須去思考AI到底對於社群媒體上它的影響到底是正面或者是負面的當然如果以具體的政策建議而言我基本上會主要提出三個建議供NCC或者是相關的行政機關做參考第一個就是我們現在所有的社群媒體它的演算法到底是什麼"},{"start":6263.945,"end":6283.383,"text":"也就是說我們不知道它背後到底是怎麼樣去推薦相關的內容給使用者因為今天你就算打開YouTube你也不知道為什麼這些影片跳在你的YouTube的首頁你今天打開Threads你可能也不知道這些影片或者是相關內容怎麼跳在這個上面也就是說其實這些媒體平台他們背後都有他們的演算法"},{"start":6283.843,"end":6309.366,"text":"那這個演算法到底是什麼呢如果這個演算法可以依照所謂的公共價值也就是說如果他可以盡量去顧及社會的平等族群的平等或者是社會公平正義等等不同面向的價值的話那他的演算法如果是以這個導向來做設計那基本上呢你的相關的內容就會變得比較正向一點所以如果我們要能夠確保這些社群媒體平台呢能夠用所謂的以公共價值為導向的演算法來設計的話"},{"start":6310.607,"end":6327.91,"text":"或許NCC或其他的機關可以思考怎麼樣要求這些社群媒體平台提出他們的透明性報告也就是請他們告訴我們你的演算法背後的設計邏輯到底是什麼到底怎麼樣可以去推出相關的內容給所謂的影音的使用者上第二點"},{"start":6329.111,"end":6347.474,"text":"也就是說在事實的查核上也就是說我們現在因為生成式AI它可以產出很多不同的文字影音圖片這些內容它到底是不是正確的當然因為台灣是一個民主國家我們不可能像中國大陸這樣做所謂的事前審查我們一定是做事後的追認或做事後的審查"},{"start":6348.015,"end":6367.749,"text":"那這個時候到底怎麼樣可以建立一個適時的查核機制就變得至關重要也就是說我們到底能不能建立一個值得人民信任而且也具備第三方公正專業能力的所謂的適時查核的機關或機制這個就會影響重大因為呢如果今天在網路上我們要做一個有品質的公共討論的話"},{"start":6368.63,"end":6382.886,"text":"那他必須是依照現實發展的事實來做討論如果大家都是根據一些臆測或者是意識形態或甚至是自己的想像在做討論的話那這樣台灣的公共治理的品質或公共討論的品質並無法作為提升這是第二點"},{"start":6383.587,"end":6403.344,"text":"那第三點呢也就是在NCC或者是其他的政府機關其實可以思考一個在公共行政學這幾年來一個很有趣的概念叫清推叫Nudge那清推呢就是使用所謂心理學的概念去導引民眾或導引人民走向一個政府或者是這個比較社會公益想要走向的取向舉例來講"},{"start":6404.665,"end":6427.305,"text":"像前陣子不是這個網路有在流傳說我們可以到所謂的移民署去申請自己的入出國的紀錄嗎那這個入出國紀錄呢如果你是在網路上申請的話基本上他很便捷也不用多花錢但如果你到這個實際上的實體去辦你可能還要付200塊那這個呢基本上就是政府希望你透過相關的這種網路的東西來做"},{"start":6427.985,"end":6442.564,"text":"這樣對他們來講呢對政府來講是節省成本對民眾來講可以節省時間那政府為什麼會做這種制度設計呢就是一個要付錢一個不用付錢他就是希望民眾去用那個不用付錢的他就是透過民眾的心理學呢讓民眾走向一個政府希望去做的角度"},{"start":6443.004,"end":6464.02,"text":"那當然今天我們在各種的社群媒體平台上或者是在所謂的這個政府的制度設計上如果我們可以透過輕推這樣的一個概念去設計相關的制度或者是機制的話讓我們的公共事務的討論能夠走向一個更依據事實為基礎的討論這樣子一定程度上可以去提升我們的公共治理的品質"},{"start":6465.041,"end":6488.57,"text":"當然最後就是說台灣現在的公共事務的討論已經從過去傳統的這個紙本的媒體報紙也好或者是大眾媒體也好已經漸漸轉到網路上轉到各種各分眾化的平台上面在這些地方如果我們都能夠透過良好的制度設計讓人民可以依照事實來做各種有深度有意義的討論這樣子"},{"start":6490.251,"end":6505.482,"text":"我們就能夠建立一個更加良善而且美好的一個公共治理的平台還有一個更好的民主治理的角度以上 謝謝各位謝謝王教授 我們請張崑盛講師"},{"start":6530.246,"end":6543.292,"text":"主席 各位與會的專家委員跟委員們大家早安那我其實還是順著其實我要講一下我自己的想法第一個想法是我是一個反對委員會制度的人"},{"start":6544.654,"end":6574.034,"text":"為什麼 因為就沒有人負責任這個委員會所以我一直認為說適合委員會的國家權利只有兩種所有涉及政策的都不適合因為他沒辦法實現責任政治但是如果涉及到多元專業監理跟爭議處理的那這種業務就還可以由委員會來做不然沒有人負責所以如果大家有機會去看到4至613的解釋他講的也是這個思考也就是說當立法院去做了獨立委員會的時候就面臨到他對於行政一體跟責任政治"},{"start":6575.134,"end":6590.262,"text":"產生減損那政策出來之後誰負責我們就我們現在面臨最大的問題是誰負責那NCC也很可憐我也很想負責但是我沒有誰當然主任委員是主任委員他不是部長所以那個負責的機制上面就會不太一樣"},{"start":6591.483,"end":6618.977,"text":"所以我一認為說我們是有限的才去幫讓獨立機關留著讓它存在那只要獨立機關留著其實應該這麼說立法院都應該去講說為什麼這裡面我們所謂的憲法上的這邊我講一個憲法上的某一個公共利益這麼的重要重要讓它成為獨立機關我覺得這個每次應該這個正當性的論述都要有但是我們長期以來沒有而且用了更多的獨立委員會但是誰負責我們產生的問題"},{"start":6620.658,"end":6640.031,"text":"管制不行的時候誰負責就出現問題所以我覺得這邊確實是要思考一下613之後那當然當我在談論追求憲法上公共利益跟所失職的任務的特殊性裡面我就去找國家通訊委員會組織法第一條跟通訊傳播基本法第一條的規定這個基本上而言"},{"start":6640.751,"end":6662.289,"text":"我認為通傳會就是做這些事這些事顧好了就是通傳會的事其他都不是應該這個邏輯所以超過了這個範圍因為我今天在談論也有幾個前面的委員都講得很清楚就是說第一個職權不是他的那你為什麼要去講雖然我其實蠻喜歡前面委員那個陳大老師提供的內容細緻的在想"},{"start":6663.13,"end":6690.526,"text":"這一次有關於大罷免我最大的感受是所有的人民看不到完整的資訊我覺得這個通常會應該去想這個問題就是說不管你是哪一個政黨對我而言都不重要而是說我必須要民進黨的也可以聽得到國民黨跟民眾黨的聲音民眾黨跟國民黨的也可以聽到民進黨的聲音這是人民作為主權者應該要擁有的權利那我覺得這是我覺得不管是立法院應該在這地方好好去立法關於平台"},{"start":6691.847,"end":6709.022,"text":"參數的公平性跟多元性的保障這一塊應該要提供一個機制那我覺得通常會如果有想到這個問題這個地方應該去想怎麼讓這個多元的聲音完整的被傳播這應該是通常會接下來要想的問題所以我做一個我整體的思考當然我努力的"},{"start":6709.662,"end":6729.287,"text":"其實目前國家通訊傳播委員會的組織法第三條的規定除了我講除了第一款以外都是我認為委員會的應該有的職責也就是說如果我們要去談論通訊傳播的包括網際網路傳播的政策的時候我們就面臨到一個問題那沒有做到誰負責是行政院負責呢還是我們今天行使同意權的"},{"start":6730.509,"end":6752.547,"text":"各政黨負責我自己會產生這個confuse誰負責因為我們會不知道誰要負這個責任然後還是哪一個委員負責因為他是一個委員會那究竟哪一個委員負責不知道所以就會產生很大的困境我想包括與會列席的那個三位處長我覺得應該很痛苦我最近這個聽了結果因為政策有的時候要我負責"},{"start":6753.308,"end":6774.522,"text":"但是每一個委員各自代表自己的聲音包括專業的聲音那我怎麼辦就會產生問題所以我一直認為政策的部分應該回歸行政院某一個獨立的一個所謂的具有部長級的這樣的首長制的部門去處理那讓整個通常會就完全進入什麼進入監理的工作我覺得這是我認為比較重要"},{"start":6775.711,"end":6789.058,"text":"那當然因為我們在審查人所以我用第四條第三項的規定本會委員應具有電信資訊傳播法律及財經等專業學士或事務經驗那我們這次審的四個委員都具有"},{"start":6790.363,"end":6810.648,"text":"比如說我最想審的是陳明修老師超想審他是因為不好意思我審他的原因是他真的夠優秀也就是說以當代來講憲法跟行政法的翹楚之一我不是因為我們都是同事所以講這句話而是他是真的在不管是著作或是實務能力都夠所以那部分我就講說"},{"start":6811.648,"end":6836.847,"text":"稱讚他一下趁機稱讚他一下記得要跟他講一下我有稱讚他那最重要的是他真的夠優秀包括他寫的文章跟他的前瞻性都很夠所以我蠻期待他用憲法行政法跟特別是經濟行政法的能力可以去協助通常會走出一個完全不一樣的格局因為我覺得包括他的棘手分器的部分他長期以來從以前在保訓會開始以來的委員會的參與"},{"start":6838.228,"end":6847.11,"text":"我想他在委員會制度的運作上面應該可以輔佐主任委員有更多的制度上面的設計這我對他有很大的期許"},{"start":6848.072,"end":6868.972,"text":"那所以一樣的思考就是在通訊傳播裡面什麼叫通訊傳播在通訊傳播基本法他已經定義說穿了我們就是管這些東西通傳我也不用去管我就管這些內容就對了超過這些內容應該都不是我們今天在討論的重點那我依序對於幾個委員去提我的背景就在學術背景的時候我其實從一開始就講他們的學術背景都夠"},{"start":6869.853,"end":6885.513,"text":"那其實我對於主任委員蔣委員有比較大的期許是他是國家最早一批做國家資訊跟通訊基礎建設的那一批科技人才所以我希望他可以而且他得到好多的創新獎"},{"start":6887.411,"end":6903.528,"text":"創新講 其實剛剛有一個委員講我覺得蠻對的他好像更適合當速發部部長我覺得不好意思我要講因為他在創新跟未來科技部分確實可以提供國家很多的奧元但是我覺得他如果先懂監理"},{"start":6904.249,"end":6932.452,"text":"以後再去我其實講搞不好他先當這邊的主委以後去當速發部的部長兩個都做的時候他就更知道這邊要做什麼那邊做什麼其實未必是錯的而且我其實一直都不贊成說你曾經已經做了很多這個才可以來這個位置這很抱歉我一直都不贊成這個想法而是你的底蘊夠不夠所以我這邊有特別提了一些事任的理由也就是說他自己的專業的部分學術實務的兼備都有而且他長期從事未來科技跟新創的東西那個理解"},{"start":6933.112,"end":6958.328,"text":"可以在我們現在新的新媒體包括新的通訊技術的部分他有更深刻的了解我覺得那個部分可以提供監理的什麼監理的自然科學的的那一個能力應該他有那個思考那我期待啦因為我政策他很明確那其他的部分我就希望他在既定的政策裡面我還是認為那個他講的他們幾個委員講的很重要是媒體嗜讀的問題媒體素養"},{"start":6959.289,"end":6979.896,"text":"那這個訓練其實是要有怎麼去合作讓每個人都可以得到他充分的資訊而不要被某一個政黨控制任何一個政黨都不適合因為我還是認為人民要當一個主權者那陳明修老師的部分我就講得很清楚因為我希望他在行政法專業的時候去形塑包括數位中介法服務法的推動跟平台的治理"},{"start":6980.516,"end":7000.542,"text":"還有怎麼去加強假訊息的防治但是在經濟行政法的部分他怎麼去提供目前僅有的網際網率政策上面他用經濟行政法的部分去談論包括經濟管制跟經濟輔助的手段這個陳平橋老師都已經寫過相關的文章而且是有專業能力的希望他可以提供更多法治的幫助"},{"start":7002.242,"end":7031.642,"text":"那黃衛老師跟羅老師這兩件事我只有兩個思考是他們在各自的領域裡面代表他們的立場相信他們可以不好意思讓我再講一句話就好但是羅委員講了一個東西我認為剛剛前面的委員有一個我要講是他參加的都是倫理委員會跟自律委員會所以那個思考他其實是在思考怎麼叫媒體自律所以我希望他在媒體自律跟NCC的他律自理的監理之間扮演一個潤滑的角色這是我對他比較大的期望以上謝謝"},{"start":7039.308,"end":7041.95,"text":"謝謝張教授 我們請姚孟昌教授"},{"start":7057.216,"end":7076.491,"text":"主席與會的專家學者還有我們在場的先進非常高興來參加今天的公聽會那我想今天的重點是要協助立法院去審查這些NCC的被提名人他們的資格他們的學養還有他們能不能夠"},{"start":7077.816,"end":7095.627,"text":"在專業以及獨立性上來履行包含我們的NCC組織法還有相關職權法所授予的權能所以我想我在看今天四位被提名人的資料的時候我可以感受到"},{"start":7096.963,"end":7122.81,"text":"行政院在提出這個名單的時候它有顧慮到比如說專長的分工還有他們的關注點那這一點是值得肯定的那當然從他們的一些自我的期許裡面我們也可以看到他們關心包含比如說媒體的公平競爭那關心像這個媒體的嗜讀也關心到"},{"start":7124.113,"end":7148.287,"text":"獨立性各式各樣的問題可是我想有一點可能這四位的被提名人他沒有想到也就是說他們今天不管在講到要去推動公平競爭等等這些他有牽涉到行政院其他部會的職權比如說涉及到公平會"},{"start":7149.83,"end":7173.524,"text":"我们提到媒体试读的部分的时候它可能跟教育部相关比如说涉及到网路或我们讲到通讯基础设施的设置可能跟国科会或跟经济部相关或交通部相关所以我非常关切的是"},{"start":7174.676,"end":7194.517,"text":"这些委员在顾及他们的专业以及独立性之外,他如何跟其他部门来进行协调?特别在整个政策的形成、政策的整合,包括跨部会的合作上面,他们有没有这种自我的体认?"},{"start":7195.538,"end":7218.898,"text":"那他们要怎么去做这是我在看他们的这些资料里面我看不太到所以换言之他们可能在个案上面比如说在维持自己的专业性 独立性可以做得很好可是怎么跟其他部会去进行合作我想立法院在审查这个人事的时候也应该要提醒"},{"start":7219.699,"end":7248.772,"text":"因為我知道他們不管誰到立法院備詢的時候立法委員不會只是單純問他職務主管的問題他也會牽涉到跨部會這些政策的議題這是我想我關心的第一個面向第二個面向是在NCC的組織法裡面他有提到了一個很重要的一個觀點他提到就是說在整個設置的目的是要"},{"start":7250.305,"end":7275.712,"text":"确保言论自由可是我们在讲言论自由的时候我们会联想到这个言论自由不是只是单纯我讲了我可以自由的传播就够了也涉及到受众的听的权利大法官曾经在364号解释里面提到了一个媒体禁用的权利这里面特别关切的是"},{"start":7278.556,"end":7304.121,"text":"少数 弱势他可能是经济上的弱势或是在知识上的弱势他需要政府特别的协助所以这一点NCC是有责任去促成而在这个部分我们看到这四位的被提名人他或许可能疏忽还是觉得这个部分不重要"},{"start":7306.323,"end":7333.485,"text":"他忽略到有关人权保障的议题或是他提到人权保障的议题的时候他强调只是言论自由他忽略到资讯的普及以及受众的这些需要所以容许我引用在去年身心障碍者权利国际公约的国家人权报告国际审查"},{"start":7334.522,"end":7359.887,"text":"之后国际人权专家提供给中华民国政府参考的结论性建议在这个结论性建议当中国际审查委员会特别指明行政院包含文化部要与国家通讯委员会来合作合作什么呢第一个就是他们要处理的是"},{"start":7361.448,"end":7378.665,"text":"包括打击跟身心障碍者有关的科幻印象偏见以及有害的做法比如说在传播媒体如果有散播这样的一个偏见歧视的时候请问要怎么去做第二个部分也提到如果"},{"start":7379.662,"end":7405.256,"text":"媒體沒有去禁止 媒體沒有自律這時候NCC有沒有相關的管道去收受比如說這些相關的申訴案國際人權專家就指明就是說你們NCC就有受理投訴的這些相關的程序可是你們沒有案子"},{"start":7406.26,"end":7429.674,"text":"那為什麼會沒有案子他就很技巧地問了這個問題其實我想我就直接從我的個人理解就功能不彰嘛那另外也提到有關可及性或是在使用傳播媒體的這個無障礙設施這就回應到364號解釋大法官的一個關切"},{"start":7430.7,"end":7450.405,"text":"那国际人权专家也问了也就是说在你们这个国家里面有关数位环境的这些障碍包括那政府网站等等还有有关的电视节目当中手语字幕不足新闻报道的部分那这个部分你们有没有注意到那也提醒了包含了"},{"start":7451.889,"end":7465.301,"text":"比如說要確保了所有身心障礙者特別是視覺障礙者能夠在教育設施家庭當中特別是在接收這些媒體的時候他能夠取得普及的數位內容"},{"start":7467.049,"end":7489.509,"text":"那这些去年写了那我相信NCC的这些行政官员一定知道他们一定在回应可是他们毕竟他们是受到这些委员的监督以及委员的带领那如果这些委员在他们写的内容里面都没有提到比如说人权关切的议题"},{"start":7490.129,"end":7513.8,"text":"那我就很好奇他如何去落实在组织法里面有关弱势的保障所以这部分绝对不是单纯只是我的什么普及如何如何他要有针对性那这是我非常期待这些被提名的关键最后有关媒体试读的部分"},{"start":7515.482,"end":7535.601,"text":"我们一直都期待要尊重媒体的自律可是NCC如何创造一个能够更让媒体可以自律的一个环境刚刚提到接受申诉然后促请媒体改进那这个部分我想是应该进一步的加强以上"},{"start":7541.618,"end":7564.666,"text":"好 謝謝姚教授我們請因為時間我們剩下四位那是不是我們四點半就不用休息就直接把它講完好不好那要上洗手間就先自行上洗手間好那我們現在請林煥燊教授"},{"start":7582.233,"end":7608.02,"text":"好那個主席然後那個各位委員跟各位先進大家好然後我是林寬生那我是來自於中正大學社會福利學系那我自己本身的專長其實是在公共行政與政策但是我因為在社會福利學系教書所以我其實今天想要談的主要部分會著重在社會福利的一些面向上面那我想因為通訊傳播現在時至今日其實剛剛前面很多先進都有談到說其實"},{"start":7610.021,"end":7626.978,"text":"現在的日新月異資訊的發展其實它已經不只是從產業的議題它是更攸關的所謂的這個弱勢的生存跟兒少的安全跟災難救援等等的這個涵蓋這些很大範圍的這些社會政策所以我想會一一的從這幾個面向"},{"start":7628.98,"end":7657.739,"text":"應該是說建議未來這個NCC如果這個新任的這個組委跟副組委跟新的委員上任之後可以特別注意這幾個面向OK 好那第一個就是所謂關於所謂這個通訊平權的這個問題就是說現在其實普遍出現一些狀況譬如說這個以基地台跟這種回傳任性譬如說就是中斷跟修復時效來說就是剛剛其實前面有幾個先進有談到說這個前陣子因為台灣"},{"start":7659.821,"end":7679.559,"text":"這個因為這個好大雨造成的所謂的這種基礎的通訊設施中斷的這個問題我覺得這個議題對於不管對於一般的地區都已經這麼嚴重更旁論這些偏鄉或是原民地區的這個基地台一段的話就是好幾天甚至於說一個禮拜以上我覺得這個對"},{"start":7681.36,"end":7710.16,"text":"這個已經不是所謂這種享用通訊權或者是傳播權這種概念而是人權的問題所以我覺得第一個是這種回傳韌性跟記憶台的這個基礎設施的維修的回復的問題第二個是所謂的服務的可及性來說譬如說很多身障族群的朋友他們打客服的時候他們會遇到很冗長很漫長的一個過程但是沒有語音的導引其實很多國外很多的實證研究都已經指出說"},{"start":7711.02,"end":7731.663,"text":"今天以我們使用者體驗來看很多的人我只要譬如說用一次兩次線上系統但是如果這個不是user friendly的話其實他們很容易就會棄用而且之後重複就是之後再回到用這個系統的意願會大幅的降低所以我覺得這個對身上的族群來說可能是應該要去特別要"},{"start":7733.294,"end":7758.177,"text":"加強強化一點另外一個是從以可負擔性來說現在低收入戶月繳499塊其實已經佔了它可支配所的15%以上所以我覺得這個也是之後可以探討的一個重點所以我覺得未來在通訊平衡這一塊其實可以從幾個面向去加強第一個是說要建立所謂的通訊無障礙指標那它指標可以從幾個面向去看譬如說第一個是覆蓋率就是譬如說偏鄉"},{"start":7759.856,"end":7776.304,"text":"4G 5G的覆蓋率可能至少要到達95%那第二個以韌性度來看就是說斷訊修復的時效可能要控制在24小時之內就是能夠恢復這個基本的這個通訊那第三個是在可負擔性上面就是低收入戶的通訊費"},{"start":7777.805,"end":7803.094,"text":"希望可以不要超過它可支配所得的5%那最後是在可及性上面就是說無障礙的客服的達成率需要能夠到達100%這樣子好 那我覺得除了這些之外另外一個滿值得關注的通訊平權議題就是說所謂的弱勢族群的通訊補助辦法這一塊就是說未來我會建議NCC應該要建立一個相關的這個schedule就是這個時程表就是以譬如說"},{"start":7804.625,"end":7822.52,"text":"跨部門的資源或自己本身現有的資源來對低收或中低收或身心障礙者或者是偏鄉的長者提供資費的減免跟一些譬如說中端設備或家戶寬頻的一些抵用權就是盡量能夠短期開始開辦這個業務這樣第二個針對的是這個所謂的弱勢保護的這個監理的責任的這個機制因為"},{"start":7827.944,"end":7853.217,"text":"大家也知道說這個之前這是政府成立的這個打詐國家隊對吧就是台灣被人家這個有點戲弄成為詐騙之島所以去年詐騙案65歲以上的這個族群佔了4%所以我會建議未來如果NCC這個新任的這個主委副主委上任之後還有新任委員就是可以從防詐的一些社會責任指標去著手譬如說預設"},{"start":7856.03,"end":7873.572,"text":"開啟高風險的一些這個段號的警示跟攔阻就是幫忙譬如說有一些一鍵推定的價值的服務以及簡化申訴的這個管道譬如說可能有一些長者優先的通道或者是一些新的渠道來接受譬如說可能法定代理人或照顧者可以代理然後可以"},{"start":7874.253,"end":7895.649,"text":"更易於可以做結案跟追蹤回訪那在兒少保護的部分就是說現在OTT平台其實每天推送什麼樣的內容給孩子其實家長完全是不知道我記得剛剛那個應該是王一范老師他其實有談到演算法的問題就是說我也會鼓勵說NCC應該要主導成立一個關於兒少數位權益的這個專責小組因為"},{"start":7899.481,"end":7913.45,"text":"這個部分可能要因為現在很多議題都是這種跨部門式的所以我覺得由NCC它來主導然後可能會同譬如說教育部衛福部跟一些民間團體對於所謂的分級或者是演算法的推薦廣告跟資料保護去提出一致的規範"},{"start":7914.531,"end":7939.943,"text":"那第二個就是說可以建立這種家長的監護的這個儀表板因為包含像是這個剛剛前面談到的打炸國家隊的這個他們的網站上面就有很多這種關於儀表板即時的顯示說我們完成了多少的績效那滿一目了然那我也覺得說現在的平台不需要提供譬如說時間跟類型的控管然後可以讓民眾更易於去舉報跟申訴跟追蹤這樣子"},{"start":7941.284,"end":7970.424,"text":"那最後一個是在所謂的身心障礙族群就是說我會建議說未來譬如說手機的APP它必須要通過所謂的無障礙的檢測才能夠上架以及客服能夠剛剛前面談到客服的回復率竟然能夠到達百分之百然後也能夠提供所謂的手語視訊的這個選項這樣子然後另外一個就是說把行動這個APP跟機上和一些無障礙的規範看能不能夠納入所謂的刑事認證作為它必要的一個項目之一這樣子"},{"start":7971.384,"end":7986.325,"text":"那第三個部分就是所謂的這個所謂災難通訊的零死角那我記得剛剛應該是已經離席了洪夢凱委員他其實有談到這個災害漫遊這部分那我可以在這個基準點上再多做一點點的補充就是說包含說像這個"},{"start":7987.887,"end":7992.511,"text":"因為台灣確實是一個天災平仁的國家而且現在所謂的這種複合型的災害絕對不會是單一的風災因為通常地震伴隨過來可能會是海嘯在這種情況底下我會覺得災害漫遊確實是值得我們去關注的一個議題就是說我們可以透過譬如說啟動的門檻跟公告的實現來設定災害等級的啟動門檻"},{"start":8009.565,"end":8033.662,"text":"譬如說昨天台北發生一個規模四級的地震對吧那我們可以設定我們門檻譬如說震度五級或者是淹水五十公分的時候可以自動開啟這個災害漫游這樣子那另外一個就是一些偏鄉的地區它是不是有這種迴傳多樣化的比例譬如說像是衛星跟微波它是不是可以達到百分之百的這種雙迴傳我覺得這個也是要維護到偏鄉的一些"},{"start":8035.123,"end":8061.67,"text":"居民的一些這個權益上面因為我自己做過一個研究就是之前陳君研究過屏東這個在白義鄉的一個大後部落它是一個排灣族的部落當時它在2009年莫阿克風災來臨的時候它就形成一個孤島因為它通訊全斷它沒有辦法跟外界聯繫就是一個隔絕狀態那我覺得這種情況對國民來說是非常非常危險所以就是要確保說這個是不是一些"},{"start":8063.011,"end":8079.347,"text":"關鍵的基站它能夠在有效的時間裡面恢復好那最後我稍微做個很快的總結就是說我覺得現在的通訊傳播的監理其實不只是市場秩序的維護就是說應該是社會安全網跟基本人權的基礎設施就是說通訊傳播這個領域已經"},{"start":8082.53,"end":8101.586,"text":"不在他原本這麼狹隘的定義裡面他應該是要延伸到更大的一個面向所以我覺得通訊監理應該是要展現在如何去對待社會上比較弱勢的群體然後就是立即來要維護基本的人權上面好 這是我這個簡單的這個意見的分享 謝謝好 謝謝林教授我們請廖國祥律師"},{"start":8118.843,"end":8143.786,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是廖國祥律師針對本次的NCC的這個被提名人的人事同意權的審議就在這個公聽會上提出個人三點建議然後也有機會的話也想說就教於被提名人首先第一點就是說我看那個審查資料裡面四位被提名人裡面有三位都提到說要去加強去做"},{"start":8144.566,"end":8169.48,"text":"平台的問責就做平台的監理但是這邊會有一個需要注意的點就是說我們去看NCC的組織法跟速發部的組織法速發部的組織法第二條規定說速發部的職責包含數位經濟跟相關產業政策同時NCC的組織法第三條也規定自身的職權是網路傳播政策的制定所以說這兩個機關針對這個平台上面究竟"},{"start":8172.682,"end":8193.261,"text":"哪邊是誰的政策 哪邊是誰的政策這一點其實是有待釐清的那依照目前我們所看到的看起來涉及到網際網路平台的監理跟法規的制定好像以目前的法規是屬於速發部在進行的不管是以打詐為例像過去通過的打詐法"},{"start":8194.182,"end":8212.157,"text":"或者是將來立法院目前審議當中的媒體議價法都是明定速發布作為主管機關那我們知道說不管是打詐還是平台監理都是國人非常關注的議題那也是因此所以被提名的人也都有這個雄心壯志去做這個平台問責平台監理的工作"},{"start":8212.657,"end":8224.483,"text":"但是將來NCC跟訴發部之間如何對這個平台的議題去做主管機關上面的責任選定或者是相互間如何做合作我相信是個非常重要的事項"},{"start":8226.744,"end":8252.176,"text":"如果說雙方都有這個雄心壯志願意把它納管的話那只是雙方互相協調的問題而已怕就怕在說如果雙方都消極推尾互推皮球的話那這個監理的工作要如何順暢進行就可能會出現問題所以將來不管是我們將來不管是速發部還是NCC不同機關之間的主管事項應該如何被明確的劃分跟掌握這是非常重要的議題這是第一點"},{"start":8253.797,"end":8280.633,"text":"第二點我要說明一個我認為是目前實務上面非常重要的事情就是當前NCC的決議門檻到底如何計算我們知道NCC到目前為止已經停擺近一年的時間了原因是因為NCC認為他們的委員人數是不足的但事實上是這個樣子嗎根據NCC的會議議事要點第二條規定未依法就任的委員或者就任後出缺的都不計入委員總額"},{"start":8281.894,"end":8311.073,"text":"都不進入委員總和意思是說什麼呢意思就是委員會決議的定族數其實是用現有總額去計算這個不只在文藝解釋上面是如此我們從過往的運作的經驗上面也可以看到相同的一個軌跡NCC的組織法是2005年11月9號制定的當時的委員人數是13個人後來在2008年1月的時候修法改成7個人但是在2008年的時候只有當中只有7位委員"},{"start":8312.335,"end":8316.561,"text":"上任 但是呢第一屆委員 不好意思 我更正一下"},{"start":8318.291,"end":8341.144,"text":"一開始明定的委員人數是13個人之後在2008年1月才改成7個人那在一開始2005年到2008年之間原本13個委員裡面呢在第一屆其實一開始就只有7位就只有9位委員通過人事的審查然後再加上委員辭職等等的原因到2008年2月的時候就只剩下6個委員"},{"start":8342.265,"end":8358.055,"text":"在2008年的3月之後甚至只剩下5個委員就是13個委員裡面只剩下5個委員但是當時的NCC仍然持續運作持續開會 持續進行決議所以我們可以知道說在法律的實踐上"},{"start":8358.755,"end":8384.723,"text":"NCC的法定決議門檻也是現有總額過半而不是現在NCC所主張的法定總額過半這是非常明確的事實甚至我們可以找到過往的資料我舉例來說NCC第227次的委員會議記錄第一頁第229次的委員會記錄第一頁都明確的引用我剛才說的議事規則去說明說為什麼他們可以做成決議就是因為委員數的定足數計算是現有總額而不是法定總額"},{"start":8385.583,"end":8410.17,"text":"所以說我們可以發現說在一年來NCC在沒有任何法規依據下就錯誤認定法委員的總額是法定總額然後不去做成任何的決議這是有非常重大的瑕疵的我們當然是非常希望說四位被提名人都可以順利的上任但是我們也知道說NCC採的是交錯任期制剛才也有一位先進提到說明年的七月NCC的委員又有三位到期就任期要屆滿了"},{"start":8411.77,"end":8431.939,"text":"所以說這是一個非常重要議題而且是一個言訊系的議題NCC委員定足數從來都是以現有總額計算而不是法定總額計算那希望說不管是將來現有的NCC委員還是將來通過的NCC委員對這個法律應該都有正確的認知才可以正確的執法正式的認識用法而不會讓NCC自限於空轉"},{"start":8432.959,"end":8458.937,"text":"這是第二點那最後一點我要提的是說在我們看實務上過往一個經驗這NCC時不時不該說時不時不時都有不遵行行政程序法51條的規定就是對於人民申請的案件對業者申請的案件嚴重詞誤不做成決定這個嚴重的影響到人民的權利那這個部分也希望被提名人說明說將來應該如何防免"},{"start":8459.437,"end":8481.968,"text":"因為行政程序法第51條第1項就已經規定了行政機關對於人民申請的案件應該制定申請處理期限如果沒有規定的話應該以兩個月內做成決定但是NCC雖然有制定人民處理期限表但實務上運行上它經常性的去試該時間表以及行政程序法的規定如無誤"},{"start":8482.808,"end":8505.504,"text":"就是對人民申請的案件一再拖延或者是不為處理這是非常司空監管的事情舉例來說董監事變更是一個很常見的審議事項過往對董監事變更的申請處理期限應該是30天但是在前一屆的NCC把這個30天大幅延長到180天但實務上面審查甚至有超過兩年的情形"},{"start":8506.364,"end":8522.16,"text":"對比金管會金管會去受理金融事業董監事變更平均一個月就可以做成決定但是NCC卻可以拖到半年甚至兩年就可以知道說NCC對於人民申請案件是如何刻意的拖延而且嚴重不合理的現象"},{"start":8523.598,"end":8550.775,"text":"再舉個例子NCC在審議華視上架52頻道的時候僅用了40天就做成行政決定展現了非常高度的行政效率但是對於其他頻道申請上架同一個評位的審議決定從2021年到現在已經經過了4年沒有做成任何決定只有無止境的補件跟格制連駁回處分都沒有造成部分地區52台還是空評到現在這已經嚴重影響消費者的權益了"},{"start":8551.135,"end":8576.781,"text":"那這個是因為剛才像王維新委員前委員提到了這是因為NCC欠缺獨立性還是因為他們受到什麼正媒財團的壓力嗎我想應該不是這個樣子但是無論如何這個做法拖延時間做法絕對不是監理機關所因為而亟待改進最後補充一點如果說主張說正媒共生會影響NCC的獨立性的話那卻要求NCC將來改採政黨比例代表性由政黨"},{"start":8577.521,"end":8603.432,"text":"推薦比例的名額認為這是解方我認為這是非常荒謬的一件事情謝謝大家謝謝廖律師我們現在請李全和律師大家好我今天想要從這個審查程序的建議來切入公聽會主題"},{"start":8604.599,"end":8624.344,"text":"也就是說大家都很關心說這個人選的適任性重點確實在兩件事情一個是人的資格一個是立場不過其實那個資格跟立場指的是什麼我認為那個資格指的當然是專業性不是他的政治立場然後他的我們說在乎的其實立場還是重要但是應該是對於通傳監理的態度是什麼"},{"start":8624.964,"end":8640.036,"text":"而不是政治敏感度在哪邊所以怎麼去對於人的專業資格以及通傳監理的立場做適合的審查我今天想要做透過一個審查程序的強化來做一個建議跟檢視我有兩個方向第一個是說"},{"start":8644.139,"end":8664.287,"text":"我們有沒有可能建立一個我把它稱為剪裁旗艦的審查程序這個是指什麼就是說在審查這一些被提名的時候委員一定會有很多的問題這個各式各樣這些問題也都很有特色很重要可是每一次的審查的問題是不是能夠越來越聚焦跟集中"},{"start":8665.247,"end":8691.669,"text":"什麼意思呢比如說第一次的提名沒有過那第二次的補提名會不會同一個問題那同一個委員問的立場完全不同例如今天如果我們問被提名的人說你對媒體市場集中化的想法是什麼結果這個被提名假設他回答說現在媒體有集中化嗎有這個情況嗎大家會不會有誤解那委員對於這個回答很不滿意就說那你今天是瞎了眼睛嗎對媒體集中化的情況都視而不見都沒有提出這個具體的想法跟方案"},{"start":8692.349,"end":8715.32,"text":"結果到了下一次同樣的問題另外一位被提名人補提名人然後回答了包括媒體集中化應該要怎麼去調整怎麼去平衡然後這時候委員就反而去問他說這裡有嗎有媒體集中化的問題嗎大家可能聽起來會覺得很荒謬但是實際上不論是這一次NCC的審查應該說前一次一直到來這一次或者說在前一陣子的大法官審查"},{"start":8716.36,"end":8740.75,"text":"有沒有這樣的情況就是大家可以去看一下當時的這種宮廷委員的一個過程會不會其實同一個問題連問的人的立場前後都是矛盾的那你要前後的被提名人跟所謂的譬如說大法官是總統提那這個NZ委員是行政院提那提名者他要去調整這樣的一個方向的時候他又要怎麼提"},{"start":8741.67,"end":8759.559,"text":"所以我把這個稱為剪裁旗艦的過程怎麼樣那個程序可以越來越聚焦聚焦到一個大家其實不可能百分百相同但是有共識不是停留在這個意識形態而已那有時候我會把這個就是用一個容我用我自己的這個工作的領域來比擬"},{"start":8760.64,"end":8782.459,"text":"他很像法院在開庭的針點整理前面大家各有攻防可是到時候最後延遲辯論前最後要整理出一個收束的針點不要說到時候其實到延遲辯論才開始又提出新的證據調查又提出新的攻擊防禦方法所以同樣的我們提名或是再補提名他必須要知道說在這樣的一個社會氛圍跟專業的一個要求底下"},{"start":8783.62,"end":8800.389,"text":"委員們對於這些被提名的期待是什麼那個問題要聚焦所以怎麼檢查期限當然有更多具體的想法這個有機會我再多多補充但是我想說的是說大家每次提到人事統一權一定都會提到4-632號解釋的機關中層這固然很重要"},{"start":8801.149,"end":8824.046,"text":"那我個人認為機關忠誠指的當然也不是提什麼就要過什麼或是說 不過然後這個組織空傳的問題通通都是在審查者身上可是如果今天不給過不給過要具體理由而且每一次的具體理由要有實質的意義就是說他要有一個脈絡性的討論而不是說今天我用A理由不給你過下次同一個我就換成B的理由"},{"start":8825.267,"end":8848.455,"text":"雞蛋裡永遠可以挑骨頭可是其實雞蛋裡不見得有骨頭這就是我是第一個程序的建議然後第二個程序建議是現在我們審查其實是委員的資格跟主委副主委的資格它其實是被綁在一起的因為法條中的規定本來就是提名的時候必須要指定一人為主委一人為副主委那當然對於這一次的被提名我都是持肯定的態度"},{"start":8848.715,"end":8868.931,"text":"只是說在審查上面如果大家對於他們的專業能力的肯定跟行政能力的想法是分開的是不是有一個可能性是審查上在委員的資格跟主委副主委他其實是可以分離的也就是他如果能夠一次審查當然是最好但是像上一次或是前次的大法官提名其實有不少的委員提出的是對於"},{"start":8869.711,"end":8897.045,"text":"被大法官提名者一個行政能力就是委員長或副院長的質疑那當然我們孤不論因為今天不是在討論大法官的提名但是我覺得是可以拿來做比較或比擬的就是說以NCC的委員來說因為NCC雖然沒有4-530裡面提到那個司法自主的行政權限應該說沒有司法行政自主權可是基於獨立機關的獨立性要求它一定還是會有相當程度的法律上自主權所以如果我們把NCC的委員"},{"start":8898.226,"end":8918.531,"text":"搭配主委副主委他的職權給劃分開來由上而下或是由抽象到具體我認為它有點像是監理政策的擬定這個範圍是最大的再來是個案的審定例如許可的執照的換發再來才是行政事務這個其實是可以分開切割的以行政事務為例其中NCC組織法第九條第三項它有"},{"start":8918.931,"end":8941.659,"text":"人事室 主計室 政風室以外的單位主管任免領取有主委任職所以主委是有這樣的人事權的好 所以如果今天委員們在審查他認為說他的質疑不在專業不在監理的立場而在於行政人事或者是行政上面的就好 你很有專業你過去是一個這個領域的專家問題是你有擔任過官員嗎你有行政事務的經驗嗎"},{"start":8943.099,"end":8959.113,"text":"這時候是不是有可能在審查上面去做分離我把這個姑且稱為雙階段的審查程序那法律上當然沒有特別去規定這個當然也沒有去限制這個方式這個其實是在審查上面的一點彈性自主所以我的想法是這樣"},{"start":8960.772,"end":8974.898,"text":"其實這個跟常常在講一樣是憲法庭或大法官是一樣我們說譬如說許中立法庭早期這個翁岳昇法庭就是說誰是主要的首長或者是院長可能會影響到他整體的方向跟風格"},{"start":8975.658,"end":9000.495,"text":"我們相信NCC也是 主委副主委也是所以如果我們能夠先審視或肯定他的專業能力然後他可能需要時間加上這個行政的能力那是不是可能把這樣的審查的空間加進來以空間換取時間也就是以人事同意的範圍這個空間換取去延宕組織運作那個時間那這個方向其實是在大法官那邊或是在這裡我認為都是有討論空間"},{"start":9001.656,"end":9019.486,"text":"而且法律上並不會失去它的正當性因為在我們NCC組織條例第四條裡面它的整個設計的脈絡應該是委員由行政院提名進立法院同意任命制然後後面才說行政院長提名時應指定一人主委一人副主委它是應指定但是確實不是應絕對通過"},{"start":9021.887,"end":9046.786,"text":"這是我在審查程序上面兩點的方向建議最後幾秒鐘我想說的是其實大家都很關心人選的適任性也一定有不同的想法這是民主程序跟價值多元的表現我們認為是很正常的可是怎麼透過優化程序或讓程序更具體來達到真正的目標就是檢視專業性發揮獨立性而不會只是流於政黨的對抗或意識形態我認為這個才是關鍵發言到此 謝謝"},{"start":9052.328,"end":9053.829,"text":"謝謝李律師我們請賴教授好"},{"start":9070.131,"end":9096.698,"text":"主席 現場各位先進我想針對這一次國家通訊傳播委員會的委員提名人選的審查我提出兩個方向幾點建議供參考第一個就是說其實我們這個機關叫做國家通訊傳播委員會這個機關的主委或委員他的通訊傳播能力其實是很重要的我們看到前面幾屆"},{"start":9098.949,"end":9114.884,"text":"NCC的主委跟委員們有不少都提出了很多他們認為很精心設計的法案但是往往根本就過不了立法院這一關甚至在行政院裡面也未必受到支持所以我們的"},{"start":9116.124,"end":9145.347,"text":"主委或委員他的溝通協調能力到底好不好我想分三個面向來講第一個就是雖然他是獨立機關但是剛剛前面幾位發言人也提到很多業務他是跨部會的所以這個尤其是主委或副主委的被提名人他在行政院裡面他如何一方面維持他的獨立機關的角色另外一方面能夠跟院長跟其他的部會做好溝通"},{"start":9147.523,"end":9168.735,"text":"那麼我們看到這四位被提名了有不少人都提到了反詐那前面也有先進提到這個反詐其實也是速發部的重點之一我不瞭解這幾位委員是不是知道NCC的現況NCC一年的預算也不過才7億多7億多是一個很小的預算然後NCC的"},{"start":9169.878,"end":9196.093,"text":"員工人數也不過才500人左右人也不多所以那相較來看書發部一年的預算大概是70幾億是NCC的這個接近10倍所以在這個有限的能力跟預算之下NCC想做的事是什麼你怎麼跨部會去協調然後能夠獲得大家的共識我覺得這個也是很重要的不然"},{"start":9197.452,"end":9225.04,"text":"NCC掛著獨立機關之名都不跟外界互動自己關起門來研擬一堆法案然後只能管傳統的媒體那自己訂的法案最後都過不了這樣的NCC委員或者主委恐怕不是我們所要的那第二個NCC的被提名人的重要的溝通面向當然是跟立法院溝通跟立法院溝通坦白講不是很容易因為我好幾年前曾經去推動所謂的"},{"start":9226.814,"end":9254.525,"text":"這個通訊傳播產業政策台灣很多學者會喜歡提通訊傳播政策但是往往講的是監理政策那很少人提到通訊傳播產業政策就是我們怎麼輔助這個產業來發展那當時我在推動的時候我還記得當時我去拜訪賴世保委員雖然我們都姓賴但是沒有親戚關係那麼賴委員就跟我講說賴老師你講這個立法院的委員大概不會超過五個有興趣"},{"start":9255.578,"end":9277.938,"text":"因為跟他們沒有關係所以我們未來的NCC的被提名人怎麼跟立法院溝通我覺得這個也是一個很重要的特點不然一樣自己在這個NCC委員會裡面關起門來辦事情很多法律的草案研擬得很辛苦但是最後過不了立法院這一關恐怕也是沒有意義的那第三個是怎麼跟產業溝通我們的NCC"},{"start":9281.363,"end":9299.415,"text":"主委或委員跟產業的溝通是非常重要的這個產業大家想到的其實是傳統的電視產業傳統電視產業很辛苦等一下我會特別提到其實還包括不存在的產業不存在的產業要怎麼溝通呢以下我就來講我所看到的這個"},{"start":9300.666,"end":9327.708,"text":"NCC委員們要做的兩個當務之急這兩個當務之急我非常遺憾第一個居然沒有人提到那第一個就是我認為NCC委員要重視的產業但是這個產業在台灣幾乎不存在通訊產業你們說通訊產業很多啊有這個中華電信啊 台客大啊我講的是本土的即時通訊軟體產業各位你們手上用的通訊軟體我相信大多數都是用LINE"},{"start":9329.898,"end":9336.863,"text":"全台灣也許包括我不知道總統院長用什麼軟體但我猜大概也是用LINE因為多數人都用LINE這個沒有國安問題嗎我們NCC委員不關心這個台灣我們現在賴清德賴總統一樣都姓賴我們也沒有親戚關係賴總統常常在講各種國防韌性通訊韌性"},{"start":9353.8,"end":9374.831,"text":"台灣沒有自己的其實有啦這個以前有早在這個馬英九時代有推動一個叫JOKER但後來發展的不是很順利JOKER我前幾個月看好像還活著現在不知道情況怎麼樣就是說台灣沒有自己的通訊軟體即時通訊軟體這個不重要嗎那有幾位被提名的有提到這個"},{"start":9376.38,"end":9401.799,"text":"這個我等一下再來講所以我們到底要不要有自己的即時通訊軟體這個部分怎麼去處理目前沒有看到有人提那這個就是我剛剛提到就是說NCC的被提名人應該跟產業多溝通那這個產業就包括不存在的產業即時通訊軟體的部分那第二個當然就是指存在的產業那我們看到"},{"start":9403.171,"end":9417.917,"text":"有兩位NCC委員被提名的人還在講反媒體壟斷那是我念碩士的時候的議題我已經當教授14年了那是我念碩士時候的議題什麼叫媒體壟斷"},{"start":9419.301,"end":9442.335,"text":"什麼叫媒體壟斷從經濟學的定義是你在對市場上你對於價格你有決定權這是正統經濟學對於壟斷的定義那我們現在的台灣的媒體市場有哪一個媒體可以對價格壟斷 我很好奇也許有 但我不知道而已所以我也很想請教"},{"start":9443.536,"end":9466.853,"text":"台灣現在通訊產業最大的問題是什麼剛剛也有先進在提到媒體嗜讀我也很感嘆我是反對媒體嗜讀的人媒體嗜讀台灣一堆人都不知道生命的意義是什麼不懂生命嗜讀講什麼媒體嗜讀媒體嗜讀那麼重要嗎媒體嗜讀要教我們了解媒體運作判斷媒體內容好不好"},{"start":9468.493,"end":9497.371,"text":"台灣的媒體都要垮了啦 還媒體嗜毒就好像 假設啦台灣的醫院都要倒閉了我們現在叫醫生嗜毒教大家怎麼判斷好醫生壞醫生這沒有意義啊台灣媒體現在最大的問題是整個媒體產業要崩潰啦我們的NCC委員被提名人講反詐講這個什麼反媒體壟斷這是我念研究所的時候看到的議題嗎我很訝異啊"},{"start":9500.234,"end":9521.281,"text":"很多人提到修廣電三法廣電三法整個直接都廢掉我覺得都沒有什麼影響廣電三法就是發執照現在我現在跟著我女兒在看這個網路節目我們家剪線已經剪很久了我現在這個平常也是透過我用本土的濾TB"},{"start":9524.088,"end":9548.502,"text":"台灣的媒體產業整個快崩垮的時候我們的NCC委員被提名了有幾位真的在關心這個議題沒有我們的媒體產業怎麼樣重新振興起來沒有看到有一位委員提議當然他們可能從過去的經驗他們始終認為NCC是監理機關其實前面也有先進提到"},{"start":9549.909,"end":9578.491,"text":"NCC的基本法第一條就提到它是要促進整個通信傳播產業的健全發展所以不是只是監理機關以上 請就教 謝謝好 謝謝我們所有的學者專家第一輪經理發言完畢想發言第二輪的學者專家請自還沒有要發言的"},{"start":9580.697,"end":9607.043,"text":"請自 因為我想說如果有要發言就要先休息一下想發言的第二輪學者專家請自主席台登記那每會發言三分鐘如果沒有的話那我們所有學者專家及委員均已發言完畢那針對本次公聽會做以下結論"},{"start":9608.84,"end":9628.412,"text":"再次感謝各位學者專家提供寶貴的意見將作為日後審查本人士同意案的參考今天所有出席委員的發言及提供的書面資料除列入紀錄刊登公報與立法院公報外也會另外製作成公聽會報告"},{"start":9630.268,"end":9635.895,"text":"宋教本院全體委員及今天所有出席貴賓參閱本日會議結束 散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"163754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d743d60f898d810e28761655294c1ef9ae10df13e3ef0b419cb252cafd17ebecc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:01:54 - 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國防部主管辦理各營區維運國內外專業訓練招募宣導"},{"start":2400.959,"end":2420.995,"text":"波充國軍營設及設施改善基金辦理資安園區中長城計畫等10億元六外交部主管辦理加強雙邊及多邊合作對國際之關懷救助及重建等10億元七海洋委員會主管辦理籌建海巡艦艇潛艇發展計畫等"},{"start":2424.317,"end":2437.766,"text":"總共是9億元八 衛生福利部主管 文化部主管等部會辦理急性傳染病流行風險監控及管理等第四期計畫提高國家重要癌症篩檢等總共21億元"},{"start":2440.828,"end":2457.134,"text":"以上稅出追加手續財源878億元全部以原預算收支剩餘數支應綜上追加預算結果總個稅入為此3兆1648億元稅出增為3兆128億元稅入稅出剩餘1520億元扣除債務還本1415億元收支剩餘105億元以上報告敬請主席及各位"},{"start":2469.918,"end":2473.219,"text":"委員你是先生會議指教並鼎力支持謝謝好 謝謝我在這宣布我們現在空氣品質1998非常的糟我們後面的媒體駕著攝影機的後面的朋友是不是可以請你們離開這個會場 好不好"},{"start":2489.566,"end":2509.728,"text":"我們現在群仙樓有801 802紅樓101都有現況的實況轉播所以各位可以在那裡看一樣可以看得到我們在進行的好不好請大家能夠配合好不好能夠旁邊站的一樣請你們離開好不好因為這樣子的話我們的"},{"start":2510.489,"end":2522.016,"text":"我們的官員 我們的立委們呢這個在這裡 空氣品質這麼糟啊昏昏沉沉的 對健康也不好我們再介紹剛到的立委喔林德武委員林德武委員好 沒有沒有沒有還沒講話 你這個還沒有 我是介紹你來陳雪生委員李柏毅委員王美惠委員好"},{"start":2541.855,"end":2551.799,"text":"因為今天我們要處理公開預算還要處理秘密預算所以我們的情況是比昨天我們的負擔比昨天多了最少50%以上"},{"start":2556.035,"end":2582.795,"text":"因為這次追加預算涉及到外交國防的機密預算所以要登記機密預算諮詢的委員請到主席台來登記現在我們開始詢答每位委員發言四分鐘因為我們還要處理機密這個完全是為了國家我們完全配合 四分鐘"},{"start":2584.229,"end":2594.747,"text":"不得延長 四分一到我就站起來了好 我們第一位今天早上十點鐘為止截止發言登記首先請登記第一位的林鄭委員請咨詢"},{"start":2605.615,"end":2611.705,"text":"謝謝主席有一位這個部會首長還有各位同仁是不是請那個陳處紀長請"},{"start":2623.638,"end":2633.876,"text":"委員好主席長你好我請教因為媒體宣傳會是否有必要大幅度的來追加預算因為本席是希望說行政機關有義務"},{"start":2636.543,"end":2659.468,"text":"要節省使用尤其是這個沒宣會這個預算身為立法委員也有義務也有責任要替人民來看緊荷包因為政府為了增進社會大眾的整個施政的議題的了解那有辦理一些政策性業務這些宣導之必要但是為了避免"},{"start":2660.448,"end":2679.82,"text":"制度式的行銷維護整個行政的中立新聞自由以及人民權利的目的預算法第62條之一訂定之相關規範部分機關辦理媒體宣傳會宣導的話所制定的這個績效指標"},{"start":2681.892,"end":2694.94,"text":"未能夠具體的衡量宣導的這個成效僅以產出量作為績效的一個指標那如新聞或貼文的數量活動"},{"start":2696.703,"end":2719.288,"text":"場次以及影片數量等往往這個整個政策宣導影片觀看數非常的低實在是很難看出他的宣導的一個成效那本席是希望行政院各部會跟主計總處要通盤的檢討整個沒宣會的績效指標不要"},{"start":2720.248,"end":2732.862,"text":"只把錢撒給媒體整個預算的執行就好了那更不要拍一些華人問津的這些影片或辦理整個活動只有小貓兩三隻來參加"},{"start":2735.785,"end":2753.893,"text":"那我請問主計長你是我贊成將媒宣會的績效指標跟成果主動來公布在主計總署的網站上面的專區並按計送立法院來被查以利民眾來檢視整個媒宣會到底"},{"start":2755.173,"end":2779.895,"text":"動之的 得當不得當是 這個部分我們委員的建議我們會盡力來達成然後我們會把它公布在我們主計處的晚間對 一定要而且每一季都要公布我認為這是給民眾一個交代因為我們是身為監督政府各機關單位好 那你就每一季都要公布好 OK來 我請衛福部那個邱太元"},{"start":2781.997,"end":2787.121,"text":"衛福部的邱部長 邱部長衛福部的邱部長時間暫停一下好了 來邱部長來時間暫停了 時間暫停"},{"start":2798.393,"end":2807.977,"text":"委員長部長我請教因為衛福部一二年度醫院護理服務的調查離職率以護理師的薪資呈現明顯互相關"},{"start":2814.019,"end":2838.278,"text":"及薪水越低而離職率越高改善護理人員薪資的條件以及提升護理人員留任的關鍵因素之一今年6月媒體報導三班的護病比首波獎勵金5.47億入帳有醫院拿到4千萬也有醫院拿到0其中因為我轄區裡面雙核醫院屬於為達標獎勵金為0的27間醫院之一"},{"start":2843.743,"end":2863.864,"text":"雙核醫院當然是我選區裡面鄉親很多都會去看診本期是希望說護理師的權利要保障以免影響整個病患的一些照護其實我一直認為主要最重要就是你的"},{"start":2865.563,"end":2885.611,"text":"很多該給的你們都不給那造成現在這種狀況因為部長你有沒有什麼因為急診室貼出最近急診室還貼出說本急診目前的這個護病比1比13好 請你簡單回答好不好不耐久的話 甚至要進醫院這是很嚴重的問題好 我幾句話就好雙核醫院監護期"},{"start":2890.954,"end":2903.208,"text":"那個綜合融合非常重大的醫療也感謝政府跟還有我們當地委員的一個幫助讓他們承擔了很多那我們為了他的比例不過我們也有請"},{"start":2905.361,"end":2918.745,"text":"衛環 本縣的衛環也到那邊去視察他會在8月全部把三班護病比把他打到標我希望一定要達到急診的部分是因為沒有護病比但是我們人力一定讓他充足我們護理計畫 十二大計畫一定全力來支持 來推動感謝 感謝委員謝謝 我們現在來請吳秉立委員發言"},{"start":2941.57,"end":2960.268,"text":"主席麻煩請主席長 陳主席長好 來 陳主席長來主席長早 是今天為什麼要追加這麼多預算 講個原因"},{"start":2964.686,"end":2988.621,"text":"當然我們有幾個主要有幾個新增項目那還有一個就是說當初刪減的部分我們我們主要是有三項一個原住民保留地進化補償的部分那還有提升國軍待遇的部分還有一個加強外交執行能量要增加還有一個就是我們原來立法院刪減然後影響地方還有一個"},{"start":2989.321,"end":3014.133,"text":"我們各部門那個施政的一個情形的一個希望能夠追加的部分了解這個是因為確實有需要所以要多增加這些支出啦但是就這兩天的媒體看到多數的藍白立委仍然磨刀霍霍要繼續砍那這個如果沒有通過會造成什麼影響呢"},{"start":3016.571,"end":3043.48,"text":"當然如果說有一些譬如說要做宣導的譬如我們主計總署五年才辦理一次的榮林普查的宣導會那這一次我們也是被減掉那我們還是有希望提出追加還有包括榮林普查相關的一個旅費也希望能夠恢復我不是只有問你主計處啦我不是只有問你主計處我是說這次的追加預算800多億如果沒有通過或是又被大量刪減你要怎麼處理啊會造成什麼結果啊"},{"start":3044.827,"end":3063.98,"text":"因為裡面有一個636億是屬於補助一般縣市政府的一個項目那裡面也有提升國軍的一個待遇還有加強外交執行能量的相關的一個經費所以這個部分呢都是影響到相當的一個權益包括縣市的一個執行"},{"start":3065.575,"end":3083.729,"text":"我就沒有看到 我是說我這兩天的媒體看到藍白又在那邊談他們國會多數要談哪個預算又要大幅刪減那我現在上來問你說這個如果被大幅刪減會造成什麼影響結果你這個回答蒼白無力我們不能被刪減 刪減會對施政造成影響這個就是行政院的答覆嗎你想跟我講的只有這樣嗎"},{"start":3090.199,"end":3099.048,"text":"那你不用讓國人知道說 這個刪減會對國家造成什麼樣的影響造成什麼樣的損害 會讓施政上面造成什麼樣的危機嗎還是我在替你們急 其實行政團隊不急你說什麼沒藥沒菌 沒粥沒粥 影響施政就這樣而已"},{"start":3116.14,"end":3133.814,"text":"這裡面其實有一些譬如說像海委會它有一些相關一個船艦的一個稅休這些等等還有包括有一些農業部一些治山防火大規模奔踏地的一個防災的一個相關的一個經費那這個部分呢所以我們"},{"start":3135.752,"end":3158.089,"text":"內政部還有包括生活圈一些道路系統的交通系統的一個建設等等這些所以我們認為這些都是非常重要的一個項目我們必須要辦理最佳非常重要只在這邊講就講這幾句現在的立法院已經跟以前不一樣了以前民進黨黨團要負責替你們開記者會替你們說明替你們怎樣行政團隊躲在哪裡現在行政團隊不講"},{"start":3165.011,"end":3189.152,"text":"立法委員現在在野黨藍白加在一起是國會的多數坦白講今天預算要不要給你過喔他們細於餘念之間啦他們如果站在政治對立的立場喔你講的那個地方補助股給你過啦其他的不要給你過啦 那又怎麼樣所以你訴求的對象以及你要講給誰聽由誰來講"},{"start":3192.458,"end":3202.105,"text":"那怎麼樣才能引起社會的重視這個很重要好不好請你們行政團隊好好思考一下謝謝接下來由陳廷輝陳委員謝謝主席我們請主計長陳主計長"},{"start":3222.011,"end":3247.97,"text":"委員好 主席長其實今天要讓你講的就是說從過去我們每一次有所有的預算尤其在我們當時候一頒補助款的時候當時候國民黨的執政縣市首長怎麼說我們的針對這636億我們現在把它回編回來嘛那其他不用講國軍的部分重不重要很重要啊"},{"start":3249.161,"end":3276.102,"text":"他都罵我們不重視國軍國軍很重要我們做了很多的加急所以這一次都全部把追加預算把它補進來禁法補償說很重要我們也是把它補進來啦然後外交中不重要很重要啊我們也是把它補進來啦然後中央對於地方的補助除了一般性補助還有中央對地方的補助我們這一次把它補回來啦"},{"start":3277.458,"end":3301.796,"text":"那我們要看當時候國民黨的縣市首長怎麼說的我也希望在野黨的立委要看清楚這些縣市首長當時候怎麼說蔣萬安說我們拒絕讓中央這樣的宰割有沒有侯友宜說馬上依法將一般性補助款要回歸到地方要求中央政府"},{"start":3303.818,"end":3329.955,"text":"張三振怎麼說說如果沒有這筆錢就要取債了盧秀燕怎麼說她說請中央歸還屬於地方的經費再來謝國良怎麼說他說會取債沒有這筆錢會取債黃明慧說這個部分會影響到地方政府處理社福教育基本建設的支出"},{"start":3331.772,"end":3356.96,"text":"再來我們看到宜蘭代理縣長說這個有關民生社福重大建設所以要求中央要進步恢復剝副新竹縣怎麼說他說這個也對於地方人民影響很大會影響到地方政府的運作再來苗栗縣他說"},{"start":3358.325,"end":3375.001,"text":"他現在已經沒辦法舉債了因為苗栗縣的預算是最糟糕的所以如果沒有這筆錢會舉債許淑華說這個部分呼籲行政院要正視地方財政的困境要盡速恢復撥款"},{"start":3377.172,"end":3404.819,"text":"這個不是就藍營的縣市首長所說的嗎張立善怎麼說他說這個部分很重要因為水利救災防災如果沒有這筆錢鄉親會淹水重不重要很重要啊王惠美怎麼說她說希望行政院盡速撤銷原儲分恢復補助款這不就是縣市首長所說的嗎"},{"start":3406.263,"end":3428.145,"text":"徐政委怎麼說 他說會舉債 沒有這筆錢會舉債姚慶林怎麼說 他說這個會造成整個包括長者重養禮金哇 把這筆錢講得好像神一樣所有的問題都在這筆錢所以如果沒有的話 台東縣的憲政無法推動"},{"start":3429.998,"end":3457.21,"text":"都講得這麼嚴重連江縣說如果沒有的話還是要舉債你看中央過去給地方多少的恩惠我再次強調現在縣市的執政是藍營多於綠營我們從來沒有在針對這個部分去做任何的調整是因為這一次國民黨亂三預算"},{"start":3458.01,"end":3481.218,"text":"把預算凍結把預算刪掉了你不得不你沒有辦法再做調整啦所以只好回補所以我覺得這一個追加預算完完全全是及時雨如果各縣市都這麼嚴重拜託我們在野黨的立委不要再阻擋了謝謝感謝接下來我們請賴世寶來到召委來"},{"start":3490.017,"end":3492.967,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請主席長來 陳主席長"},{"start":3502.438,"end":3524.017,"text":"委員好主席長你好我們根據財務法30條第三項補助款不得少於前一年的預算結果你們現在自己擴大解釋變成說是一個大水庫的概念結果說第一個你們要來跟我申請第二個我來決定要給多少"},{"start":3527.2,"end":3540.829,"text":"你們這個辦法是這樣子來 竹記長你聽好了 竹記長聽好囉我現在已經提案正式把你的補助辦法改成條例 改成法律案改成法律案"},{"start":3541.943,"end":3557.481,"text":"我不允許你等於你們的政治的手伸進來這裡面地方補助款你說我沒有比去年少可是你是一個大水庫的概念要給哪一個縣市多 給哪一個縣市少完全你就決定這裡面就有政黨考慮在裡面啦到時候我們看得到的話就會什麼 會"},{"start":3563.167,"end":3586.044,"text":"綠的多 綠執政的縣市多藍之間的縣市少這個答案就會出來難怪今天蔣萬事長他就跑去行政院參加院會他要抗議你們這樣的一個方式這不是攬傘大水窟的概念這是對於各縣市我現在我們已經有提案了"},{"start":3586.764,"end":3602.142,"text":"已經有提案了 只是還沒有 已經不違了 還沒有審現在是審的時候 我就加一個字就好了各縣市 中央政府對各縣市的地方補助款不得少於去年這樣就是什麼"},{"start":3604.044,"end":3617.076,"text":"這樣子你就沒有亂搞的空間來你回應簡單30秒回應報告委員因為我們要拿4165億給地方了那我們縣市一般縣市補助要維持2500億然後縣市也"},{"start":3619.318,"end":3632.984,"text":"也又要求說計劃型補助不能減少要按照以往的來列那以中央來講我如果通通這樣列我就超過我的舉債額度所以我本身這個部分我就沒有辦法自己妳的觀念要變一下啦"},{"start":3636.566,"end":3658.796,"text":"編一下 你們過去來講中央地方的裁員75對25這是不同的 我們要改成6比4這個你接受了就可以了好了你請回答我跟妳講75裡面包括11%是省政府的部分那省政府的部分有將近4千億目前是在中央裡面來執行要給地方啦 那個要給地方所以那個業務應該要回轉給地方那如果這個不減的話"},{"start":3663.358,"end":3668.38,"text":"業務你去處理給他 我沒有意見所以這個有一些部分是在一般性補助裡面我必須要做調整但是我反對你說這兩千多億結果都放在你手上還要跟你申請 你多大了不是申請 是按照財力級距來分配所以我們都會有更限制的財力級距我想請那個"},{"start":3687.265,"end":3700.058,"text":"那個財政部的莊部長以及金管會的彭主委法務部的政部長好不好 三位長官來 三位部長來時間暫停喔給他們走路時間暫停一下來 停停停了委員好"},{"start":3706.849,"end":3734.741,"text":"三位長官好啊我很快就一分鐘不到的時間宏德能源公司啊涉入光電的弊案了這裡面今年的它的光電儲冷今年3月新光銀行統籌主辦中小企銀安泰等11億的年代漁電共生去年5月份由兆豐銀主辦國際票券合庫 義銀 土銀等等70億的年代"},{"start":3736.384,"end":3757.666,"text":"這裡面因為很多是公家銀行我怕單會侵害到我們的人民的權益所以我就一句話問兩位特別是兩位財政部的總部長以及金管委的彭主委你們能夠什麼時候可以提出一個報告好不好針對這個事情提出一個報告"},{"start":3760.61,"end":3775.738,"text":"我們盡快回去了解以後我們提出報告兩個禮拜以內可以嗎兩個禮拜以內提出有關於這個連帶案的報告好不好因為這已經是涉入到弊案了再請那個防護部的鄭部長注意這件事情好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3786.411,"end":3791.759,"text":"好 我們下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢請四分鐘了好 謝謝昭緯我請主記長 陳主記長跟金管會的彭主委彭主委 請"},{"start":3810.149,"end":3820.578,"text":"我先請教一下主計長主席好這次的追加預算878億但是現在有傳出來說如果要刪掉113億如果這樣刪的話會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":3825.154,"end":3843.093,"text":"這裡面因為我們878億扣除636就是一般性的補助款之外然後再來就是我們那個原民會的進華補償那還有一個國軍加薪的59億所以它主要的一個項目如果扣除之後呢那有很多大的一個項目是"},{"start":3844.774,"end":3871.468,"text":"部會他覺得困難然後要想申請能夠追加的一個部分因為這裡面當初在總預算在刪減的時候他刪減的一個百分比過高第二個他指定刪減之後又不得流用所以造成在執行上所以這兩個因素導致所以我們現在提出來那追加預算裡面有很多也都是基本上包括地方政府的需要甚至於國軍的甚至於外交甚至於軍公教的一些需要"},{"start":3872.468,"end":3892.224,"text":"所以應該是不要設定它的額度應該是就實際上面該給的就給 該刪的就刪我覺得這樣來討論應該是比較我們期盼朝野的立委大家理性來討論不要設定一個額度該刪的就刪 該給的就給以國家整體的發展需要為整體思考謝謝委員主席長 謝謝再要請教一下彭主委"},{"start":3895.022,"end":3921.386,"text":"現在其實大家也高度在關心住房者的一些房貸的問題之前我有找過來談過首購族跟換屋自住族跟整個已經取得銀行承諾的貸款額度的這些不會受到影響吧主委要說明一下我們現在在全力的在處理這件事情希望我們的銀行針對這三個自住首購跟以何貸的部分我們確保民生需要"},{"start":3922.272,"end":3937.847,"text":"這個要確保不要造成民心的一個恐慌因為首購包括自住包括已經獲得承諾這個部分他們相對的權益是要給予保障的但是我們來看一下其實就整個購置住宅貸款的餘額比較裡面"},{"start":3938.928,"end":3954.43,"text":"公股銀行 大多數但還是持續的成長出來貸款持續的成長反倒是民間的銀行整個都降低了主委 顯然是有些本來民間銀行該貸款出去了反倒現在轉到公股銀行去了主委有什麼樣的看法來處理這件事情"},{"start":3955.151,"end":3971.727,"text":"其實跟委員報告本來這個房貸的部分關股本來就是主要的他們主要是大宗民營的銀行除了少部分大部分做這個部分的比例都不如關股當然關股在做還有一些政策貸款的部分在內啦我想他們的水位確實比較高"},{"start":3973.268,"end":4002.388,"text":"我希望主委要去協助啦好不好讓這個必要的一些貸款的部分這個當然打房要進行但是對於一般的貸款特別是首購自住的這些或清安的部分不要讓他們權益受到影響這我們全力來處理我們現在也請也請受請公司他們也有一些部分的資金也會來投入那再來是很多的自住型的貸款它的成數降低了原來本來貸到七八成後來因為這個影響而降到了六成多這個部分主委有沒有什麼樣處理的方案"},{"start":4003.188,"end":4015.617,"text":"這個其實主要是另外一個就是我們的信用管制的部分那金管會這邊主政的是我們722條的那個所謂的有關流動性比例的上限的問題"},{"start":4017.632,"end":4037.792,"text":"我希望接下來有些協助因為有些可能涉及到內政部有些涉及到其他部會的部分我希望整體一體來思考不要讓整體的一些特別是親安或首購的或者是自助的權益受到一些影響最後我問一個銀行有用拉長審查的時間來變相拒戴這件事情有沒有這樣的事情的發生"},{"start":4038.212,"end":4060.518,"text":"其實跟委員報告我們有事其實最近我們有密集的去了解因為銀行主要是他們比如說他有分行非常的多每個分行都有額度那其實上他們額度在最近如果比較快接近他們內控的上限的時候他們就會控管所以在會有一些排隊的情形我希望主委注意這件事情不要讓他變相的成為一個拉長貸款的時間 好不好好 謝謝賴委員的質詢下一位請郭國文委員質詢 請"},{"start":4071.232,"end":4089.784,"text":"主席有請文化部李遠部長 速發部葉林志文化部的李部長 速發部的葉次長速發部的長官來 請然後還有包括我們立法院的周安來秘書長立法院的周秘書長 請我先請李遠部長 李遠部長"},{"start":4094.333,"end":4120.941,"text":"在2016年的時候尼泊爾颱風的時候它衝擊了台灣包括有一些文史的資料損失非常的龐大當初的文化部長鄭麗君部長馬上要求文化部跟市府來做一個合作的盤點修復同樣的狀況這次丹麗斯颱風也遇到類似的狀況後來又有西南氣流目前台南總共需要有57處的申請修復"},{"start":4124.162,"end":4146.436,"text":"目前你這個文化部在緊急預算的部分大概有3億之多但是以家裡的遊變局這長期本期非常關心還有包括王玉德的基金會淹水都非常嚴重而且事後要說要搬遷這個部長這個部分以文化歷史古都深隔的台南市是不是應該多照顧一點部長請回答是 昨天剛好我們也通過一個風災的條例從風災以來我們其實"},{"start":4149.958,"end":4168.998,"text":"完全掌握每一個縣市的那個被毀損的情況把它分等級是那我想台南嘉義這幾個點是非常所以應該優先處理嘛因為畢竟是災區嘛其實我們已經組成一個專業團隊到每個地方去配合地方政府去了解但是在這一次的追加預算當中你以貴部的業務費"},{"start":4170.839,"end":4189.976,"text":"以一般的經常門並沒有以資本門為主以本席的選區當中當初有一個典藏中心一億元被誤三惡三的情況底下你這一次也沒有恢復啊是那怎麼辦典藏中心跟那個災後的那個兩個預算是不相同的對啊那你應該去想辦法在這次提出你這次沒有提出啊"},{"start":4191.218,"end":4202.293,"text":"有追加預算的時候你為什麼不提出呢其他的部門 資本部門 資本門都有提出你為什麼不提出呢是不是代表你不重視你們好好想一想這一點要如何補救好不好是 沒問題接下來我們請蘇發布 葉刺"},{"start":4205.755,"end":4233.118,"text":"葉刺 前幾天我有跟幾位委員召開Meta現在大屠殺的狀況我們現在幾乎無法隔管當初你們的署長說交叉檔要對中六點這六點當中不關是判定AI的準稅率也好或者最重要違規適由的明確化對當事人的權益保障也好我請問一下交叉檔有個狀況其他這六點做到了沒有"},{"start":4234.173,"end":4254.925,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們大概目標是跟委員的情形是一樣就是說針對Meta它對於這個使用者的這個處理那我們希望它透明度能夠更提高然後它的這個我問你這六點做得怎麼樣啦你跟他解釋那麼多持續在跟這個Meta持續說這六點你照三張都不夠照三張都不夠可能要加一個消夜啦我看"},{"start":4259.607,"end":4286.516,"text":"我們不光是跟台灣這邊來溝通我們已經請Meta要跟總部強加處理台灣的使用者權益的問題我搞不好你們次長還要飛到美國我們這沒有牽扯到數位稅的問題只是基本使用者的權益保障的問題而已你們這搞了沒有辦法搞出來就是關鍵的問題在你們沒有法律授權你們應該推出數位服務法你們整個書發布的定位就錯誤只是在做產業推廣而不盡情管理進行輔導"},{"start":4287.916,"end":4317.082,"text":"把當成民間單位卻享用政府的資源哪有這種回事啊你認為那個數位服務法要不要推數位服務法部分過去NCC有研擬所謂數位中介你不要再推給NCC了啦你你數碼不那麼多錢NCC不那麼多人給你你乾脆廢掉好了啦你要跟我講NCC那個部分我們會跟NCC一起謀求社會你搞不清楚狀況外界的期待跟譴責都搞不清楚回去啦下去啦我們請那個周秘書長"},{"start":4321.465,"end":4331.379,"text":"三次立法院的國會交流經費暴增2599萬那次我們有統三之後你現在又回增回來又多了1200多萬總共來說還是暴增了2000多萬"},{"start":4335.465,"end":4354.016,"text":"最近我們國會內部紛爭這麼多真的有時間去做國會外交你們重點回答一下就好因為時間快到現在目前我們八百萬已經花了七百九十九萬所以我們必須要把回顧這一千兩百萬進來因為我們九月份有兩個團要去編六千多萬"},{"start":4360.2,"end":4363.321,"text":"好 謝謝再跟他說明好 謝謝下一位請林思明委員質詢請好 謝謝主席先請主計長還有財政部長主計長財政部長兩位長官請"},{"start":4388.703,"end":4402.033,"text":"主委長 部長兩位好先問主委長因為財化法的修法所以行政院先前打算統三今年地方的一般性補助款25%"},{"start":4404.235,"end":4428.132,"text":"那麼卓院長在今年的5月23號還特別對外強調中央政府不是魔術師不會變魔術也不會無中生有因此地方政府可以先行用稅計勝於舉債因應明年再依照新版的財化法去償還舉債但是我們看一下螢幕這兩張卓院長你看得出來這兩張有什麼蹊蹺你看得出來嗎"},{"start":4435.7,"end":4456.663,"text":"或許你看不出來我是照你寫的其實這兩張表格的意思就是代表說政府從一開始就是在用不實的一個話術在威脅各地方政府明明你就無需另籌裁員你看你這邊寫你無需另籌裁員"},{"start":4458.064,"end":4474.766,"text":"就可以來支付直轄縣市的政府的一般性補助款這636億但主計總署你卻是配合行政院一路在雙簧演出主計長你身為國家最高的主計機關"},{"start":4476.587,"end":4500.388,"text":"你这样子的一个这样子的一个做法配合行政院违法的去这个删减各地方政府的地方性补助款你认为你这样做对吗没有 这主要是因为当初要通案删减949嘛主席长 通案39有删这个一般性补助款吗这2500多有被删吗"},{"start":4503.373,"end":4526.479,"text":"他说要我们自行删减但是我们那个通案的项目都已经删减每个有的百分之六十也有八十以上的部分所以没有办法再删减你现在推加进来你根本没有另筹裁员吗不是我们当初不是说裁员的问题而是我们没有办法删减的空间是没有删减的空间其实署长"},{"start":4528.439,"end":4553.144,"text":"你這個邏輯不通啦所以其實你這樣扭曲財化法修法的正當性你應該把政府真實的一個財政狀況告訴大家總預算明明增加這麼多增加了一千多億將近兩千億你還可以去勤勒地方政府我就要刪你的一般性補助款如果那個時候你記得嗎不是跟你們講嗎趕快追加預算嘛"},{"start":4554.4,"end":4580.75,"text":"你就说你可以用追加预算的方式但是你擒勒地方政府告诉他们说我要删你的地方的一般性补助款现在你又倒过头来说我用追加预算的方式不是 按照道理我们统三的预算给它增加回去所以我的意思是要告诉你不要用这种方式来好像要擒勒我们要把这636亿要给你通过"},{"start":4581.91,"end":4610.42,"text":"我想當初邱永清明確告訴你們你不要等到大罷免大失敗之後你才做這個事情把原本你就應該做的你一直拖到現在你才做所以當時就要跟大家講清楚說明白你們會透過追加預算的方式來做嗎不是去把它扣除我們地方政府的一般性補助款嗎這樣做違法你知道嗎你沒有依法行政我告訴你好了夠了已經跟你講很清楚了請財政部"},{"start":4613.258,"end":4628.752,"text":"委員好部長你在週一的時候8月25發新聞稿提到說新版財政收支劃分法因為分配的公式不合理所以可能我們這個統籌分配稅款無法全數分配是不是這樣"},{"start":4629.962,"end":4654.089,"text":"跟委員報告對公視的這個爭議的問題有三項我們在法案通過的時候記者會也提出但是在三個問題裡面兩個都已經地方政府有共識另外一個法條因為是白紙黑字寫的這個部分財政部沒有權責去擴權謝謝再跟民委員報告等一下書面跟我答覆好 下一位請李坤哲委員質詢"},{"start":4662.159,"end":4671.83,"text":"很抱歉這個各位請諒解因為今天還要處理機密預算機密的詢問所以還有處理預算所以很抱歉好謝謝請一下內政部內政部的劉部長請劉部長慢慢走沒關係"},{"start":4689.202,"end":4706.183,"text":"委員好部長好內政部2024到2027有個永續提升人行安全計畫是它包括六大的工程的這樣一個推動的方案本來是軍費大概是48億本次也追加大概1000萬左右"},{"start":4707.544,"end":4722.618,"text":"作为计划的修正以及工程的相关的督导考核以及材料试验的这些经费的来源那我们看整个计划推动的过程不知道我们还是有几个地方要来做检讨例如说我们看"},{"start":4723.218,"end":4738.367,"text":"中央與地方的權責問題我們看到補助的進度其實我認為是落後了各縣市政府核准的件數其實落差蠻大的那總共第三次的補助基金會"},{"start":4739.828,"end":4754.356,"text":"第三次的補助計畫他核定了172案大概經費是31億但是各縣市政府核檢核准的件數標準是有點差距另外地方的提案"},{"start":4755.356,"end":4773.23,"text":"跟中央的要求的標準其實是有差距的導致這一些地方縣市政府核准的建築跟它通過了這樣推動的這樣一個施策其實都嚴重的落後另外就是各縣市政府"},{"start":4774.151,"end":4790.869,"text":"他的地方政府的協調其實有很大的問題這幾乎是一個結構性的問題地方政府他自己的協調性有問題的時候在推動計畫當然就會有差距另外就是他們所提出的"},{"start":4792.21,"end":4817.341,"text":"这些提案它的标准跟中央要求的不一致之外我们中央政府自己的协调其实包含经济部交通部内政部其实协调还是都有一定的这样的一个停滞必须要检讨的这些部分我想部长也清楚我们在推动这个永续提升整形安全计划这是要必须去注意的"},{"start":4818.201,"end":4837.371,"text":"因為時間的關係我們來簡單提一下說目前我們人行道的普及率的現況全國的普及率大概是47.5%其實全國有超過一半以上的縣市它相關的人行道的普及率是遠低於45%"},{"start":4839.972,"end":4844.48,"text":"另外區域的落差也很大新竹有82.6%但是金門只有9.8%那都市的舊區"},{"start":4851.479,"end":4874.779,"text":"它空间不足 其实哪里设置这个人行道这也是一个问题偏乡地区它因为低人口密度人行道的改善也并不是地方政府它优先要去推动的一个项目另外国土规划跟道路的思维仍然是偏重这种重机"},{"start":4875.765,"end":4891.682,"text":"的車輛的這樣一個優先的狀況人行道覆蓋不足設計不友善另外對車輛的高容量高容納的設計也容易導致超速的風險這個部長我們設計應該是要保障"},{"start":4896.311,"end":4917.639,"text":"人行的這種安全跨部門的協調我認為是必須要強化中央各部位以及中央跟地方政府的協調另外我們要從使用面的這樣一個需求去切入並不是說一直要車道拓寬或是傳統的耗制的設置而已"},{"start":4919.119,"end":4946.314,"text":"更重要的是要以數據事故分析為核心來驅動改變來 部長簡單讓你補充一下謝謝委員一直在關心這個永續提升人行您講的都是重點那我稍微再做一下很簡單的回覆也就是說行政院已經完成799處行人義照式入口但是有一部分就是到8月底的時候我們核定643件有關於永續人行行道的部分目前"},{"start":4947.575,"end":4964.863,"text":"雖然合訂的中央經費是高達115億但是目前只有完成35案那您講到中央跟地方或者是說包括公務 教育 交通以及地方政府的部分好 那我再用書面跟委員來做一下回答好 謝謝李委員的諮詢好 現在要請李博議委員諮詢"},{"start":4977.813,"end":4992.232,"text":"謝謝 我有請主計長 內政部副部長海委會管組委還有行政院代表行政院的副秘書長委員好"},{"start":4993.663,"end":5022.866,"text":"主席長今天追加預算因為被統刪不少於939億那後來刪了地方一般補助款636億今天提出878億的追加預算裡面有包含我剛剛請這幾位部長上台的這些相關的預算我想要拜託各位不要用數字去喊不要用"},{"start":5024.3,"end":5030.218,"text":"我133億我只要給你幾億去喊我想要拜託各位比如說海委會"},{"start":5031.598,"end":5055.705,"text":"台委會這次提出來的有幾個一共有13億裡面的7億還是一樣我們要交新建沒有辦法交這個如果不過的話一樣嘛我們非常需要這筆預算追加回來我們還有軍職同仁8000多個軍職同仁的加薪5.9億另外我跟委員報告即使是沒宣費用"},{"start":5056.485,"end":5071.11,"text":"我們都是海巡署招募所需我們要招募海巡署的軍職的志願役我們真的沒有梅軒的聲音出去所以梅軒不是惡"},{"start":5072.31,"end":5099.93,"text":"在海委會這邊即使是沒宣的預算我們都很希望能夠得到支持那我們的電費還有裝備是還有兩艘艦艇我們船的這個預算造艦的預算所以如果今天只給地方額636億沒有給海委會的話我認為這是不合理啦那我請顧部長國防部也提出來國防部提出來的追加預算裡面"},{"start":5101.451,"end":5121.333,"text":"維持一般行政運作4.多億跟國軍加薪59億如果只有加薪59億沒有國軍基本維持運作的4.4億是不是都不要所有軍社裡面冷氣電電燈等等設備都不用開了"},{"start":5122.695,"end":5138.735,"text":"跟委員報告我們這次提出來的63億的追加主要的部分在有50幾億的部分都是因應4月志願役跟戰鬥部隊加急6月的網路戰加急跟7月的電增跟戰航管的加急的部分"},{"start":5139.555,"end":5159.981,"text":"其他的部分主要在於有一些當時通山的部分表示不可以留用因此我們出國的訓練費用還有相關國內演訓所需要的這些旅費部分因為不得留用的關係我們因此沒有辦法依照既有的演訓計畫來進行相關的出國的訓練以及國內的演訓"},{"start":5165.848,"end":5190.836,"text":"都是國軍基本運作維持需要的接下來請內政部劉部長劉部長請國土署跟警政署這一次分別也提出包含生活圈道路這是都是各位委員選區生活圈所必須要運用到的生活圈道路也追加了4億另外警政署在網路打炸的部分網路精進的部分也增加了4億我想"},{"start":5191.596,"end":5221.216,"text":"面對這個生活圈道路就跟我有關係啦我們新台17線南段我們也希望最後的這個一億多也可以納入這個追加的部分讓內政部可以跟高雄市政府共同協力來完成新台17線最南段的這個部分還有剛剛講的行人永續安全空間的這一部分我們都希望內政部跟國土署跟地方政府可以確實的來完成這相關的如果沒有過的話是不是"},{"start":5221.878,"end":5223.424,"text":"某些道路會少了這些"},{"start":5225.078,"end":5248.816,"text":"道路的經費是謝謝李委員的關心確實沒有錯我們希望追加28億裡面大概有15億左右呢全部都是地方政府包括永續人行安全還有生活圈道路那再加上說我們在打乍上面的一個網路流量記錄器加在一起大概是20億左右所以拜託聯席委員會看看計畫內容看看預算內容不要先設建劃把不要只有636億會通過好謝謝李委員的執行現在要請黃國昌委員執行"},{"start":5267.608,"end":5272.01,"text":"來謝主席麻煩有請最高檢察署檢察總長邢太昭法務部部長法務部政部長國家安全會副秘書長國安會的副秘書長農業部部長農業部的陳部長"},{"start":5298.414,"end":5306.036,"text":"這跟剛剛委員報告這個檢查總長這一部分這個我剛才也講到了有要追加預算的我們都有發開會通知他不到也不請假這個我們沒辦法接受他們的預算我們就不予處理召委對不起我確認一下檢查總長沒有來是不是他沒有來沒看到也沒有請假來了嗎沒有看到"},{"start":5329.96,"end":5331.741,"text":"在一個民主法治國家當中行政部門的預算由國會來加以審議"},{"start":5358.409,"end":5385.007,"text":"國會審議了以後行政部門就應該要依照國會審議的結果來執行預算這個是天經地義民主憲政的ABC從來沒有看過一個行政部門膽大妄為道國會審完 刪掉的預算全部追加可以補回來連立法院的預算中心都直接講了立法院刪了以後"},{"start":5386.28,"end":5414.118,"text":"半數主管機關迴遍率高達三成以上其中迴遍率最高的包括內政部95.4海委會84.2外交部72.4來先請教法務部部長啊依照預算法的規定什麼時候可以辦理追加預算這一次辦理追加預算的法源依據是什麼預算法49條第一項第三款是嗎不要拖時間啦只有四分鐘"},{"start":5415.97,"end":5436.084,"text":"如果連自己追加預算的法源都不清楚的話還站在備詢台上對 79條79條第幾款第三款第三款大聲唸給大家聽79條第三款對 大聲唸給大家聽79條第三款怎麼規定的這部分"},{"start":5438.141,"end":5446.749,"text":"這份就是第三款規定各機關所辦事業因重大事故經費超過因為什麼重大事故經費超過法定預算什麼重大事故什麼現在部長又故技重施站在備詢台上面不講話混時間就可以什麼重大事故"},{"start":5464.571,"end":5490.379,"text":"回答不出來的話今天法務部辦的追加預算欠缺法源基礎全部退回去根本不用省啦什麼重大事故哪門子重大事故這個這個預算就是沒辦法符合現在業務的一個需求造成所以這樣叫做重大事故喔如果國會刪掉了以後可以透過追加預算補回來的話預算法79條形同句文整條廢掉"},{"start":5491.758,"end":5512.663,"text":"整條廢掉或者是看民進黨黨團還是行政院要推動修法預算法79條 多一款啦如果經過國會刪除過的我們還可以再追加回來否則就是違法亂紀胡搞瞎搞來 請國安會國安會很奇怪"},{"start":5514.451,"end":5533.554,"text":"去年的時候我把你們國安會副秘書長副首長的專用預算給刪掉了追加預算要回邊回來喔蛤你們國安會在追加預算說明說什麼很重要啊國家安全啊"},{"start":5534.778,"end":5556.215,"text":"真正涉及國家安全的你們的秘書長司法法治委員會請他幾次來用納稅人的錢養共諜啊這才是國家安全啊真正國家安全的事情不處理結果很緊急啊 很重要啊我們的副首長沒有買新的專用車啊對得起納稅人嗎這種預算都敢送出來"},{"start":5565.762,"end":5595.101,"text":"以為我們都不會開預算書喔把國會當笨蛋啊把納稅人當盤子啊真正國家安全的事情不管罪該負共諜案責任的繼續窩在國安會裡面 國會也不敢來但是 拜託給我們錢啊我們副首長一定要有專用車啊沒有專用車的話台灣的國家安全會遭遇重大威脅啊"},{"start":5596.428,"end":5620.391,"text":"一樣 來請檢察中長不好意思 我最後一個問題就好了最簡短的回答檢察中長 你是法律人我相信你對預算法的解讀不會像鄭明謙一樣不會像鄭明謙一樣這麼可笑你們出國考察的費用去年給你刪一部分"},{"start":5621.79,"end":5647.574,"text":"廣宣的費用法務部各個部門給你們三億部分結果呢廣宣的費用全部給我填回來然後出國考察的費用在邊好 請你很簡短的回答好不好時間到了來 請沒有關係啦我不為難他我也不耽誤其他委員的時間我要鄭重的講什麼其他部會鬼混就算了法務部最高檢察署全部都是念法律的"},{"start":5648.618,"end":5651.721,"text":"法條的構成要件都不合廣泉費被刪掉 補回來考察的費用被刪掉 補回來這個預算我絕對不會同意好 謝謝那就不用回答好 謝謝謝謝建制黨總長我們下一位請柯志文委員執行 請謝謝莊委我們是不是先請陳主席長"},{"start":5680.097,"end":5697.666,"text":"那個黃國昌委員回來一下委員好主席長好我想我還是要特別問到預算法第79條根據你的法律專業你的這個專業來說這次追加預算到底是它的合理性跟它的正當性到底符合79條的哪一個要件"},{"start":5700.411,"end":5728.468,"text":"这个部分有一部分譬如说我们的原民会的净化补偿它是依照符合哪一个四款里面哪一个要件我告诉你这是每个人都要去追问就是它的释法性的问题因为你这次预算你这次预算高达878亿元其中最大比的636亿元它是一般性补助款已经条文明明告诉你它就是一个法律性的义务的支出而且已经三度通过总统公告了那你现在要把它追加回来"},{"start":5729.088,"end":5738.435,"text":"我個人覺得這就好像是你把地方真的是把他先餓死了再給他糖吃或者是你先揍一頓再給他貼布一樣這對我們來說這是一個違法的一件事情好那現在因為地方政府嗷嗷待哺也不想讓他們為難所以有可能在這六三六一當中我們把他補回來但是我只要請問這個組計長那原本要求你們去做自行調整刪減的這個項目到底在哪裡"},{"start":5757.35,"end":5778.596,"text":"給你追加回去那你原來本來是叫你要來做你到底放在哪裡本來是3減939嘛那我們3減了939沒有 這631到底調整放在哪裡哪一個調整631 6361可能立法院會把它追加通過但是這個本來就叫你要自行調整的你的項目是放在什麼地方一般縣市補助的部分"},{"start":5779.113,"end":5793.287,"text":"你應該放到什麼地方我的時間的關係我要求主計長你必須要把你自行調整刪減的部分一定要有一份報告告訴我們這是我們的天職要來監督你這個部分調節的部分在什麼地方剛出通案刪減939那我們除了刪減304億之外現在636就是沒有辦法刪減所以才會"},{"start":5800.514,"end":5827.046,"text":"好吧沒有辦法深言不分你條例給我嘛我只能告訴你這6361因為地方的需求我們要我只要奉勸主席長真的心中要有主計不能只有算計這是非常非常重要的最重要是我們從來沒有算計過我們是依法行事你沒有完全沒有依法因為過去這整個條文過來好那主席長你先暫時留著我是不是時間暫停我們請那個我們的李紀勇我們的中選會的李紀勇好中選會的李主委時間暫停了他走路時間來請"},{"start":5833.959,"end":5855.999,"text":"也請主席長一起主席長也一起委員好是 這一次我們的公投將罷免共計花了15億4,324萬其中大部分的部分這個錢都是由我們的第二預備金來支出嗎 沒有錯吧公投跟罷免都是第二預備金嗎 什麼時候通過的什麼時候已經給了你的預備金"},{"start":5858.909,"end":5866.495,"text":"都已經撥了8月15號都已經撥了錢也用完了那我請問這次追加預算當中為什麼中選會還是一模一樣的還是BNA的1514324錢不都用完了嗎還剩下4個月的時間目前還剩下4個月的時間你們追加這筆預算是要幹嘛告訴我們發明還有7個委員沒有經過還要來做這樣的事嗎"},{"start":5880.572,"end":5897.516,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這一次申請動資二倍金達到15億多了我知道所以我只告訴你你為什麼還要追加你錢都花了為什麼追加預算中選會還要編這筆預算理由在哪裡因為它對於行政院二倍金的影響非常的大"},{"start":5897.776,"end":5915.729,"text":"那是行政院的二倍金二倍金本來就是要做天災人禍殘養二倍金就沒有錯嘛那因為我們佔的比例太大百分之二十還是一樣嘛那會影響到行政院動這個二倍金行政院把你的這個中選會還放在你們這個項目本身來說就是有問題因為你中選會本身不需要另外額外來做除非你剩下四個月時間"},{"start":5922.714,"end":5934.099,"text":"如果大院支持我們用追加的方式的話那我們會把這15億歸電給行政院的二倍金歸電給行政院二倍金這就是你們挪來挪去是違反這個所謂的這個紀律問題嘛挪過來挪過去那我只問主計長下一次我們如果還有罷免還有這個公酬的話你是放在什麼地方是放在第二預備金還是放在追加預算裡主計長回答這個問題"},{"start":5947.685,"end":5960.329,"text":"好 最後一個問題要不要回答時間到了不過時間來得及我們就不然追加如果來不及還是必須動第二預備金那要看你時間的一個這個東西我挪過來弄過去錢昆大模擬本身對我們來說這就是財政紀律上需要被檢討的啦謝謝喔簡單來講錢用完了就用完了吧不用再追加來下一位請萬美玲委員質詢請"},{"start":5980.306,"end":5988.013,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們先有請那個陳淑芝主記長那為了節省時間我就比較不好意思我們請那個李遠部長一起上來李遠部長請對 謝謝"},{"start":5992.199,"end":6020.76,"text":"委員好好 主席長好我想請教一下我們在114年的預算提案中有沒有任何一案是刪減地方政府一般性補助款的有還是沒有沒有 但是問題它有公案刪減要我們自行刪減636如果沒有刪減地方一般性補助款但是今年你去扣減地方一般性補助款636億我想我們實在覺得是非常沒有道理那我們來看依照現行中央對直轄縣市政府補助的辦法當中"},{"start":6021.701,"end":6031.892,"text":"如果你要去刪減對地方的補助款不是不可以但是必須要在條件之下才能來做我想現在我們來看一下主席長應該也非常清楚我們在相關辦法當中第12條跟第13條的規定"},{"start":6037.938,"end":6057.947,"text":"要以下四種情況中央才能夠扣減我們的補助款包括地方政府如果在年度的總預算最佳預算跟特別預算的收支的籌劃編制跟共同的這個費用標準沒有依照相關法律等等辦法去籌編那麼我們可以扣減第二如果"},{"start":6058.607,"end":6085.758,"text":"這個有依法得徵收制裁員而不徵收這也是第二個條件第三個 未依財政收支劃分法跟相關法律規定負擔因負擔之經費 第三項第四項 未依地方制度法規定支付被那個代行處理因負擔的費用要有符合以上四點不是不能扣減 可以扣減但我就請教主計長那我們現在各縣市政府是違反以上四項哪一項"},{"start":6086.878,"end":6101.232,"text":"上面的事項主要是因為它是一種考核的一個辦法考核辦法裡面規定你有違反沒有 我就請教你有沒有違反嘛主席長 我想喔今天時間很有限啦"},{"start":6101.892,"end":6107.315,"text":"他要求我們自行刪減自行刪減我們今天並沒有刪到地方政府一般性的補助款你這樣去為難地方政府就是不對那如果我們都沒有違反以上任何一款的規定那你不可以這樣去做那麼同時我想主計總署你在編列114年中央政府總預算書的時候也發文給立法院我們都知道在法律義務上面這些支出其實你不可以去刪減"},{"start":6130.046,"end":6140.67,"text":"你沒有依據你想刪就刪想轉嫁就轉嫁我想我們要提出最大的一個抗議另外我們可以看到以本席的選區是我們的桃園區你現在扣了這個扣減636億地方性一般的補助款"},{"start":6147.932,"end":6160.759,"text":"那你怎麼分配的我們可以看到你以上面來看平均大概27%我們桃園其實過去一般性補助款已經是六度最低了這一次還被這個比例上是27.3%其實我真的覺得是非常的欺負我們桃園235萬的這個民眾所以我想這邊跟主計長講"},{"start":6169.563,"end":6187.001,"text":"無論這個追加預算現在後面是什麼狀況有沒有這個追加預算立法院在8月1號已經通過決議要行政院要把這個扣減地方一般性補助款要立即租來這個撥補地方我希望主席長要能夠去做到接下來我想剩下的時間我請教一下我們李遠部長"},{"start":6189.944,"end":6213.307,"text":"其實延續一樣 我想地方經費上的不足部長您還記得吧 去年的時候我們有一起到桃園市勘察我們的美術館 對不對是在當時您也看到這個美術館對桃園市非常重要但過去因為一些減相工程的一些經費不足的問題很多的問題在裡面所以我們希望用等比例"},{"start":6213.707,"end":6217.172,"text":"那文化部一樣給我們桃園市的美術館來支持當時你也承諾了但現在你卻要求我們這個地方政府自行籌編我想時間也算很有限我只跟部長講這一點我們不能接受第一個政治誠信第二個美術館卻有所需第三個"},{"start":6231.71,"end":6241.181,"text":"我想這個美術館未來對我們美術的各方面的也幫助助益很大我們希望部長是不是在會後你能夠找一個時間到我辦公室來做說明該給予桃園市補助的一塊錢都不要少 好嗎好 會後跟黃委員的說明好 我會後下一位請鄭振銓委員質詢 請"},{"start":6262.323,"end":6290.457,"text":"謝主席 因為今天時間很短所以我就想我今天準備三個題目把會問到的幾個首長就一起請上來請內政部 外交部外交部部長出國所以次長來 請然後再請一下我們農業部跟教育部農業部陳部長 教育部鄭部長然後我們的主席長跟我們的中選會主委中選會的李主委"},{"start":6297.852,"end":6315.042,"text":"謝謝因為今天總預算的追加部分我想說有幾個地方想跟大家聚焦我想第一個問題的時候我先問一下內政部長因為內政部是這一次我們整個追加預算當中迴遍率最高的部分迴遍率最高整個總圖"},{"start":6317.463,"end":6337.256,"text":"表出來這次迴遍率最高的前五個單位是內政部 海委會 外交部 環境部跟農業部內政部的迴遍率最高高達95.4%那就是表示說我們之前在審預算當中的立法院的審預權的時候在這一次內政部的一個追加預算過程當中的時候"},{"start":6338.237,"end":6346.501,"text":"感覺是被立法院的審議權被踐踏了所以但是我想先請一下內政部長針對這個迴編的比率高達95.4%的時候做個簡單的一個回應好不好好 謝謝委員的關心其實我們剛剛有提過我們的總追加是28.8億"},{"start":6354.765,"end":6379.374,"text":"那裡面有15億幾乎都是用在地方縣市政府包括人行道的安全還有生活圈道路那其中除了這個以外大概就是在打炸的部分打炸包括我們的網路流量紀錄器還有允宣費大概是5億所以加在一起大概是20億左右那如果說是這樣的情況的時候我們之前立法院在審的部分那就等於是沒有太大的效用我們在委員會的時候有充分討論過但是在院會的時候沒有被充分討論過"},{"start":6382.295,"end":6398.076,"text":"好 謝謝部長我現在想請教一下外交部因為外交部在這一次的時候回變數也很高它增變數這邊高達11億我想特別問一下因為在這個11億當中的時候他就簡單講到一個未鞏固跟擴展邦交"},{"start":6398.877,"end":6416.106,"text":"那我想請教一下因為現在剩下九十十一十二月剩下四個月的一個時間我們在這邊追加這個項目當中的時候我想說最主要是要用在什麼地方是要鞏固什麼樣的邦誼沒有辦法到明年的就是公務預算當中去編列嗎"},{"start":6417.369,"end":6442.672,"text":"報告委員 拓邦是隨時在產生的我可以跟委員報告我個人現在也在處理很多拓邦的事情拓邦要跟對方協商的時候我總要跟對方講我口袋有些條件跟他協商所以這個是我們主要用但是這次增加了很大一部分也是在健保的就是外交人員的健保這是到今年才出來的"},{"start":6443.252,"end":6459.291,"text":"外交人員健保的部分對 健保有國家付所以這今年出來這去年沒有辦法編進去其實這11億當中很大一部分是在外交人員健保的部分嗎兩億兩億是外交人員健保那跟鞏固跟擴展邦交當中的時候會不會跟我們的邦交的增加或減少有關"},{"start":6460.273,"end":6483.214,"text":"有抱歉沒聽清楚我們要追加這11億會不會跟我們的邦交的增加或者是減少有關我們在努力在這方面真的有在努力我本身有在處理這個問題裡面有榮邦計畫還有一筆錢那個1億是外管租金的增加就現在整個環境通貨膨脹使得外管的租金必須增加"},{"start":6483.414,"end":6503.572,"text":"OK 這部分的細節再請外部再到本辦公室這邊來做個說明因為時間這非常有限我想接下來我想問的部分的時候是有關於沒宣費的一個增加的一個部分因為這一次的沒宣費增加的時候大概有九成大概都增加四成九成以上的單位都增加回變到四成我想先請一下農業部因為當時我們就是"},{"start":6506.855,"end":6522.951,"text":"因為限制性招標比重太高跟集中在特定的廠商所以我們當時就是砍了農業部的一些預算那我們現在迴編在39.98的部分的時候我想說迴編的理由在哪裡那我們接下來的部分在執行的時候是不是再繼續採取限制性招標"},{"start":6524.236,"end":6552.711,"text":"我跟委員說明就有關煤炫費的部分我們這次追加了兩千多萬那最主要是其實我們看到的現在目前很多災區受到非常嚴重的影響這些農產品已經變貴了那很多我們很擔心我們的消費者因為國產品變貴以後去轉成國外品所以我們會加大因為時間有限我想請教育部教育部這邊也到時候再給本辦公室做一個說明就是我們到時候煤炫費回編的很高的部分"},{"start":6553.171,"end":6565.958,"text":"然後另外就是中選會的部分因為中選會原本在時間到了中選會的部分再請到辦公室來講一下沒宣費的部分中選會教育部看到鄭委員的辦公室說明了好 謝謝下一位請洪孟凱委員質詢"},{"start":6579.536,"end":6580.598,"text":"來 主席謝謝抓緊時間我們請主記長主記長請先請主記長 來"},{"start":6589.578,"end":6611.378,"text":"主計長那麼多的一個部會大家也都關心所謂的回編率的部分本席在前天也講過今年會是史上預算被刪減之後回編率追加預算最高的一個會期那我請教預算的一個流程很多人可能還是不清楚就說在編列預算的時候各部會報進來主計處是不是已經要先做一些把關"},{"start":6612.859,"end":6631.315,"text":"不可能說每一個部會報出來的預算都通過所以主計處就先做把關有一些預算可能真的財源不足也會退回各部會 是不是這樣子是好 所以現在我們所謂的迴編我們看到你們講的是說一定要這麼多的預算就是當初主計處這邊有做一些把關"},{"start":6632.563,"end":6659.544,"text":"不是 这回变率的部分是针对总预算里面它被删减那因为删减今年有指定删减然后还有不可以留用那这样造成执行的困难所以才要来办理追加那追加的让他的一个业务能够推展顺利本席现在要问的是说你在送出来每年的总预算都有先做一个把关你才会到时候送出总预算来立法院审查对不对"},{"start":6660.549,"end":6685.838,"text":"是嗎是好來那本席除了對今年追加預算我們可以再持續討論的話更重要很多人在關心啊就我們已經通過的職業軍人的一個加薪以及警察人士條例警察人士條例的退府不管是警察消防的退府的相關的條例的一個預算什麼時候通過的35條去年通過的對不對是"},{"start":6686.818,"end":6698.709,"text":"那我想請教在明年的總預算裡面送出來並沒有把警察人士條例以及職業軍人加薪放進去那是內政部 國防部這組織單位他們沒有編還是主席處把他們擋掉"},{"start":6700.226,"end":6723.559,"text":"這個部分因為行政院已經提釋憲這個部分他提釋憲又提暫刑處分所以這個部分我們就是等釋憲的結果然後依照釋憲結果來編列我知道現在看到釋憲但是本席現在要問的是當初內政部跟國防部沒有把這個預算放進去還是你主席處把它擋掉"},{"start":6724.96,"end":6752.083,"text":"我們也沒有權利把他擋掉這個部分涉及到重大因為他本身要申請釋憲你剛才講要把關啊本席現在站在這邊以及所有部會大家都過來本席也要為立法院的尊嚴來捍衛本席也要為我們辛苦的國軍我們的警察消防同仁來捍衛就說很多人在講啊明明去年上個會期35條人事條例就通過了"},{"start":6752.543,"end":6766.854,"text":"退休金的退府的機制結果你行政部門民進黨政府可以那麼傲慢的不尊重立法院的一個決議明年的預算不編還說現在要做申請釋憲但是行政院是大法官嗎"},{"start":6768.015,"end":6784.107,"text":"你如果說有相關的一個部分你照理講不是應該是先依法行政先編列如果說未來真的事情有什麼狀況再去說回而不是你現在不編列然後要等到法院憲法法庭的一個審理之後才來做嘛不是嗎"},{"start":6785.187,"end":6791.033,"text":"所以很多人才講啊所以很多人才講說如果說是在提起釋憲的話我們認為你看你又扯另外一個議題了嘛我現在在講的是說如果說有人認為我繳稅是違憲我申請繳稅釋憲那我可以在釋憲結果還沒有出來前我不繳稅嗎可以嗎"},{"start":6808.704,"end":6829.109,"text":"這是財政部的一個問題又推給財政部了不是 主席長你今天在這邊我們今天討論除了追加預算追加預算你們很大的一個理由是因為你們認為說之前行政部門都已經審理過了我們預算有支出必較所以即便立法部門把你們刪除了你們還要再把他給搶回來要把他要回來"},{"start":6830.52,"end":6850.849,"text":"那現在本席一樣問的是如果說明年的預算你的職業軍人的一個加薪以及警察人士條例的相關的退付這個是國軍弟兄跟警察消防的不要說救命錢啦根本就是他們的退休金他們最基本的保障立法民進黨政府現在可以傲慢到不編列"},{"start":6852.19,"end":6857.793,"text":"私底下請主席長做調整私底下請主席長再來說明好 謝謝我們議題我會再追謝謝我們下一位請張志龍委員質詢好 謝謝主席各位委員 各位官員大家早有請主席長好 主席長請"},{"start":6883.447,"end":6904.792,"text":"委員好主席長好今天討論的是有關於追加預算不過最近還是要跟主席長講說您辛苦了最近不管是追加預算我們中央各部會的預算以追加完了以後也是超過三兆也是史上的新高尤其最近因應美國關稅跟風災天災等等的影響"},{"start":6905.692,"end":6933.068,"text":"我們也追加了特別預算不管是大家看到因應美國關稅追加了大概五千七百億風災六百億以及這一次的八百七十八億的追加預算總共的追加預算已經高達了七千億的部分所以我相信我還是希望拜託各部會在運用人民的納稅錢的時候一定要好好幫人民來把關每一分的經費要好好把關人民的納稅錢今天的追加預算有一部分"},{"start":6934.488,"end":6961.621,"text":"這800多億的追加預算有很重大的一部分是636億的地方補助款之前當然針對很多本席這邊也是認為這是法定義務支出不應該刪減所以我們當然是認定這636億的地方補助款應該要來追加不過現在有地方首長也提到了擔心這636億的地方補助款本席要這邊拜託主計長不能重慮輕難一定要好好"},{"start":6962.381,"end":6988.263,"text":"依照該做的分配把它依照各縣市不同的需求來去做分配那我們希望的是不要中央在增加預算以後中央吃飽那地方苦哈哈不要說中央假叭叭地方苦哈哈那這次在其他的剩下的各部會的增加預算的132億裡面我們看到我想請教主計長的部分"},{"start":6989.203,"end":7014.218,"text":"這個地方各部會的追加預算的部分是什麼時候要求各部會要來執行這個追加預算的動作大概是幾號我們8月4號發文所以主席長有說了8月4號才請各部會要追加相關的預算那主席長就您的職責來講你有好好來看這個各部會他們所追加預算的項目嗎有沒有一些是怪怪的項目你有來得及時間來看嗎"},{"start":7015.39,"end":7022.358,"text":"其實我們原則上是請他追加十二分之五就是說後面往後五個月追加多少十二分之五"},{"start":7023.14,"end":7048.682,"text":"增加十二分之五 這個來源是什麼意思意思是不是說把我們過去立法院各個委員在委員會審查的預算就把它增加十二分之五的預算來送到大院來去做通過是這樣子嗎三檢的部分全部加十二分之五眼睛閉著加十二分之五送到立法院來是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7050.428,"end":7074.456,"text":"所以這個主席長所以主席長我要跟你報告在這次各部會送來的預算有一些的質詢率非常的低不到五成有些連質詢率多少都沒有提供有些甚至要追加特別費或是連委員會不分黨派都認為不應該編列的預算也全部都追加甚至有一些部會更是想要滿血復活"},{"start":7075.296,"end":7090.999,"text":"追加率是95%我想請教主計長這樣編列預算的方式你能夠接受嗎請問這次是不是因為時間的關係導致各部會就是照你剛剛講的眼睛閉起來就追加預算沒有 絕對沒有"},{"start":7092.267,"end":7119.217,"text":"那请问你是如何审查这些部门去追加预算的数字因为我们被删减数有2000名我是说各部会最近追加的这130而已的部分到底你们这个组织处有没有跟各部会跟这个组织是一条编码跟我们各部会去说你们到底要提供什么样的资料有些连资讯都不到五成了就把这个预算书送上来了有些还要追加特别费有些连我们委员会"},{"start":7120.037,"end":7145.097,"text":"大家不分黨派說要刪除的也全部都追加還有部會要追加95%的真的是不能接受所以主席長要跟大家跟你拜託不要中央夾巴巴的地方苦哈哈還有追加要有一個重點很多部會追加預算的時候根本沒有來跟各委員會辦公室溝通所以我希望這次的追加預算我希望我們大院還是要好好來審查謝謝主席長好 謝謝張委員主席現在要請賴會員張委員"},{"start":7151.944,"end":7167.068,"text":"謝謝主席 有請行政院周秘書長 農業部 衛福部部長行政院的秘書長 農業部的陳部長周秘書長行政院副秘書長 對不起 對不起立法院周秘書長 行政院秘書長請回"},{"start":7187.312,"end":7189.155,"text":"謝謝 祐祷"},{"start":7190.146,"end":7218.176,"text":"我想跟你提出幾個問題是我們的院長說用追加預算來補救總預算三過頭為什麼預算中心我們立法院的預算中心會講說進半數的主管的部會的總預算三減的迴編率高達三成以上迴編率三過頭是什麼樣的一個原因呢 秘書長"},{"start":7220.221,"end":7227.007,"text":"我回来在当秘书长前我在当副秘书长的时候是"},{"start":7228.663,"end":7247.378,"text":"華視局預算中心所寫的報告你只要直接告訴我原因為什麼有辦法就是外交部迴遍率是七成海委會是八成四環境部是七成然後農業部是54%內政部是95%我只是要知道很簡單的一個議題為什麼"},{"start":7249.48,"end":7255.082,"text":"不是 賴委員我只想說明預算中心所提的報告我們在行政體系裡面是尊重他我們不會去干預他怎麼寫的情形所以有沒有問題我沒辦法做這個評斷我只跟賴委員報告我們是尊重預算中心所提的他的專業意見"},{"start":7273.787,"end":7280.951,"text":"連周秘書長都沒有辦法那個回應好謝謝Miu長我不是不能回應我尊重他的意見農業部部長陳部長請部長那個天然災害的救助基金那個我們在114年編了39億"},{"start":7294.297,"end":7313.612,"text":"其實去年我們編了27億到最後我們用了57億那今年編了39億到現在丹納斯颱風花生之前已經用掉了22億那你今年你的天然救助基金夠不夠"},{"start":7314.577,"end":7328.669,"text":"我跟委員報告去年的天然災害救助金變了27億結果最後實質是80億因為有三個颱風還有很多天災的影響那今年我們變了39億部分我們預估至少到60億到70億之間"},{"start":7330.751,"end":7354.293,"text":"那也感謝大院這邊針對特別預算我們有做天災特別預算有編了一些天然災害基金那這一次的撥補的最佳預算的部分最主要是在所謂的土石流治山防洪的預算部長我想這個農花基金回編了九成啦回編了九成我們都知道你們的困境"},{"start":7355.153,"end":7376.37,"text":"苦不能苦農民尤其現在這個整體來講台灣的氣候局數的一個那個加變這個都會影響到這個農業的一個損失所以我想這個回編率高低不是重點合理性才是重點要跟你加油加油那我們那個衛福部部長部長"},{"start":7378.678,"end":7394.636,"text":"我想在這裡跟你探討一下,微五部就是我們在113、114年度的法定預算,尤其是我們看到114年度的追加預算,那機關署它的回編率是99,為什麼回編率會這麼高?"},{"start":7398.066,"end":7413.027,"text":"報告委員那個機關署其實他主要的是辦理傳染病如艾滋結核病防治的一個衛教及多元化的各種模式其實這非常重要必須要透過媒體的管道來強化與民眾的先導所以"},{"start":7413.827,"end":7435.353,"text":"這個我們是很實在來編需要的一個所以你想想看嘛這個媒體的試讀那還有就是市面上這個假新聞這麼多啦所以也是一樣支持你的回編啦因為如果沒有回編的話事實上我想我們就可以對人民的健康有更大的保障"},{"start":7436.013,"end":7443.798,"text":"好 那部長 也是一樣 加油謝謝賴教委的諮詢下來請中嘉賓委員諮詢 請"},{"start":7457.797,"end":7466.244,"text":"謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的政府監事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請財政部莊部長跟速發部葉次長來 請兩位掌控請"},{"start":7479.963,"end":7506.845,"text":"委員好 部長好 次長好 次長請往前我這個接續問一下 抒發部啊這個上週就承繼剛剛郭委員所說的Meta用戶大逃殺 抒發部還在當總機那麼剛剛次長已經解釋過了立法進度我們要有法的授權 那我們往下看抒發部說在沒有法源依據之下只能溝通而且你們有溝通六個項目在這六點訴求 您教授等關係的境況什麼時候可以擬出來"},{"start":7509.107,"end":7528.264,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟Meta這邊來溝通他們已經反映給總部了那我們當然會希望他們在最快的時間能夠達成這些包括判別標準的精確率以及社群守則我最關心的就是說社群守則說是違反社群守則就給他停權了那麼被停權的人根本不知道自己是怎麼違反哪一條哪一項"},{"start":7529.005,"end":7549.952,"text":"那這個我特別關心這個部分有沒有明擺的跟Meta說希望他們在對用戶停權的時候明確說明他的違規事由可以嗎可以 我們有跟Meta這邊來進行溝通希望他們的社群守則要更明確而且透明度要更提高不是社群守則要更明確除了社群守則要更明確之外違規的處分事由要講出來"},{"start":7551.874,"end":7559.294,"text":"不教而殺為之孽你告訴我停權了你不告訴我是委員來拿一條我以後怎麼注意改進是不是這樣子那什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":7562.276,"end":7587.008,"text":"因為Meta的總部它因為是國際公司所以它決策可能有它的程序一個月夠不夠我們也希望在月頭好 來 次長就要有些壓力給他我們來看一下我們還沒壓力給他我們的主席在前天就詢問了川普給壓力了川普對於像歐盟這種數位稅的國家他說要實施出口管制請問明確的告訴大家台灣有數位稅嗎沒有"},{"start":7588.689,"end":7614.926,"text":"沒有 台灣是跟要打擊詐騙 防制洗錢我們訂的法律是針對這個部分對不對是的所以說台灣沒有數位稅但是莊部長對於任何國際公司在台營業的內容要不要繳交營業稅對於跨境電商我們是有營業稅跟所得稅是的好 那麼請問Meta在我們台灣境內有沒有繳稅"},{"start":7615.779,"end":7641.048,"text":"有沒有 有有有有繳哪一條稅這我們請負稅署署長說明趕快時間有限營業稅 營所稅都有繳他有繳營業稅嗎有你確定來我們看一下目前Google目前Uber等這些公司我們台灣的用戶如果下廣告付他錢營業稅是誰要繳一樣是那個Google就是營業人繳"},{"start":7643.359,"end":7665.189,"text":"你都顯然不了解葉市長你們知道嗎目前如果在Google跟Meta我如果下廣告請問我的稅是交給是誰在繳說話不知道嗎如果是個人下廣告的話是那個Meta跟Google要繳但是如果是我們的盈利事業的話是逆向課稅是由盈利事業自己"},{"start":7665.677,"end":7694.02,"text":"好 說清楚 葉市長請聽好其實剛剛說得不完全精確如果你是公司你跟Google下廣告那麼Google它會開統一發票給你營業公司但是如果你是個人下廣告Meta叫你消費者直接向國稅局繳納是不是這樣子是不是這樣子剛好相反你說Meta是營業人在Meta下廣告營業人要向國家繳"},{"start":7695.168,"end":7699.638,"text":"然後呢那如果是個人下廣告的話是Meta繳Meta有繳有確定"},{"start":7703.939,"end":7726.94,"text":"好那最後我再請教一個好那麼速發部那麼連續三個月挨罰罰款繳了沒罰款目前都有繳目前都有進帳好我希望我們財政部跟速發部對於這些國際大平台劇破在我們台灣國內法應盡的義務要確實的要求好不好對我們會依法來處理財政部OK嗎"},{"start":7728.663,"end":7735.185,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾佳萍委員的諮詢 謝謝下一位請吳佩奕委員諮詢謝謝主席我請法務部部長法務部的鄭部長"},{"start":7768.01,"end":7782.81,"text":"部長好我們法務部有一個台北地檢署的擴建工程案去年7月的時候有辦理地質專案的會刊12月的時候辦理拆除工程的會刊不知道部長您知不知情因為我並不知情"},{"start":7783.791,"end":7791.697,"text":"地方的民眾來跟我關心這個為什麼要拆除呢未來要做什麼樣的規劃呢工程期間的噪音公安交通維管等等的相關的問題部長我需要來跟民眾來說明所以我在這邊只是提醒你們我希望未來在這個區域內的相關的工程也牽涉到預算請務必能夠跟我們立法委員也一起來溝通讓我們可以掌握也可以讓跟民眾一起來說明可不可以請部長未來多加強溝通"},{"start":7813.132,"end":7822.494,"text":"這部分我會請特別地監署跟民眾來做溝通好 謝謝 那部長請回接下來我請文化部部長文化部的李部長好 部長好委員你好剛剛前面有立委說今天最佳預算好像蒙著眼睛但我更要說去年我所看到的刪除預算"},{"start":7840.526,"end":7851.553,"text":"更多是蒙著眼睛在刪通刪 刪了什麼都不知道因為我在教文會對文化部預算最了解我們的沒宣費文化部你總共被刪了多少啊 部長全部全部被刪然後你的這個所屬下面的這個單位"},{"start":7857.296,"end":7872.642,"text":"全部被刪掉也被通刪那造成什麼樣的影響呢造成就是我們完全沒有辦法宣傳我們每一個節目就是我們的下廣告 下載媒體其實都是為了宣傳文化幣或者我們的節慶所以我們最後只好靠自己"},{"start":7873.542,"end":7891.969,"text":"用自己的方法去發舉個例子因為我很喜歡的國際書展今年的國際書展宣傳結果最後要舉辦單位自己去自籌是不是部長只能這樣子因為我們就只能拜託主辦單位自己用國人隱隱偉傲的在大阪的文化世博我們帶了100多組我們台灣的表演藝術工作者去展演獲得大受好評應該多加宣傳結果宣傳怎麼做"},{"start":7900.728,"end":7928.371,"text":"就是靠民間他們主動捐了六百萬大家在網路上這樣子募款其實跟委員報告我們在這個之前的很多活動包括美術館的展覽都去跟企業家要錢就是因為被刪掉之後我們已經走了八個月了這八個月其實蠻心酸的就是我們都去跟企業募款出國去很多都是自費就會形成一個你會覺得很奇怪這八個月來我們一直要跟企業要錢"},{"start":7929.592,"end":7945.12,"text":"我們都希望讓世界看見台灣文化的實力所以今天我要拜託你你們一定要努力的說服 努力的溝通因為我們的宣傳費是宣傳台灣啊不是宣傳你 不是宣傳我 不是宣傳誰一定要努力加強溝通然後我很關心的這個文化幣去年預算也被刪了嘛 通刪在哪裡 業務費"},{"start":7951.124,"end":7967.172,"text":"有人不知道我說我沒有三文化幣有你就通算在業務費裡面就沒辦法宣傳本來要擴大13歲也可以用結果通通都被減少了連我們的國際動漫展都受到影響所以拜託幫忙加強溝通好不好好謝謝部長請回接下來我請勞動部部長勞動部的洪部長請"},{"start":7972.756,"end":7987.245,"text":"這個部長你一邊走我們非常關切的就是你們六月提出熱危害的這個預防指引很重要其中呢我們看到實務上可以做的我們的勞檢員可不可以給他們水冷衣可以給他們風扇衣你們勞動部自己就有171名的勞檢員有沒有在規劃了"},{"start":7990.613,"end":8004.991,"text":"我想我們現在確實規劃在不管是補助我們這些高風險熱危害防護的設備其實現在是擴大規劃規劃當中什麼時候可以讓我們的勞檢員可以降低他們的熱傷害熱傷害不是只是災害有的會致命"},{"start":8005.492,"end":8015.746,"text":"我們希望盡量可以盡量快兩個禮拜內給委員報告好嗎好 拜託盡快我們一定要提升他們的勞動工作環境好 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳佩玉委員的質詢下一位請張啟凱委員質詢 請"},{"start":8044.254,"end":8053.964,"text":"請司法院副秘書長跟法務部部長還有主席長司法院副秘書長法務部正部長陳主席長三位長官請總統府那個志偉副秘書長你也請好了來總統府的何副秘書長"},{"start":8065.376,"end":8085.111,"text":"我們要為這個勞苦功高冒著生命危險為我們捍衛安全的軍人跟警消人員討公道因為他們被行政院霸凌了立法院通過幫軍人每個月加薪三萬塊幫警消人員"},{"start":8086.621,"end":8115.154,"text":"把他退休所得替代率恢復到八成結果立法院三讀通過了行政院竟然一毛錢都不編違法亂記我在執行左翁泰的時候他還一直硬拗他說啊他已經提了暫時處分了結果我看昨天吳宗憲把華國務部長罵得裹血淋頭他說你怎麼沒去糾正"},{"start":8116.414,"end":8140.73,"text":"周永泰呢 黃國昌會發到臉書他講 周永泰你是在動作你自己是大法官還是你是上帝立法院刪除通過的行政院立連來馬上就編了周永泰是有史以來第一個他竟然說暫時處分就按了暫停鍵就可以不用了他說你是大法官還是你是上帝最重要是什麼現法法庭有做裁決了嗎"},{"start":8145.086,"end":8169.85,"text":"有允許他暫時停止嗎那這樣的話那以後大家都不要繳稅了法單也不要繳了你憲法法庭你只要提出來跟總統他一樣全部都停這不天下大亂了嗎那我先請教司法院的副院長副秘書長委員跟您報告一下感謝大家的支持但是我們在過去的過去已經加薪很多次了幅度也是最高的"},{"start":8170.33,"end":8194.046,"text":"那這一次我想是 市委你加薪我覺得是好的可是這另外一個事情這裡面牽扯兩個第一個是立法院三讀通過的我們不斷地在加薪我們對軍人的照顧是史上最多最大的從軍社你們以前有陳水扁當了八年蔡英文當了八年歷任的總統行政院長沒有像這一次的以前包括老龍今天過了馬上就變對不對"},{"start":8195.507,"end":8214.941,"text":"這是有史以來第一次我請教司法院的副院長委員 允許我一分鐘時間暫停你怎麼可以用我的時間暫停 我只有四分鐘來 副秘來副秘司法院的副秘你們司法院修法法庭有接受了大法官有接受了行政院"},{"start":8217.162,"end":8224.305,"text":"這個要求要暫時處分你們已經裁定了嗎報委員目前還沒有裁定沒有實體裁定沒有裁定沒有裁定狀態這麼大他上帝喔他不是大法官耶他喊停耶他就該加薪給軍人就不給"},{"start":8238.476,"end":8265.862,"text":"怎麼會這麼離譜我們還是一個法治的國家嗎我們過去加薪已經加了11.4%了你一直在講不一樣的東西請針對問題好不好加薪我們都肯定可是這個牽扯到法治社會依法行政現在行政院長做的已經是毀憲亂政了民進黨已經執政過16年今年第17年了以前沒有一個總統跟行政院長包括老龍今天立法院過了"},{"start":8266.946,"end":8296.073,"text":"甚至原住民進法補償大家有沒有印象過了以後不是就編了嗎法案跟預算案不一樣法案過了就是要編結果現在行政院長說我提了暫時處分剛剛司法院講得很清楚嘛你沒有裁定還沒有生效來 我們看一下暫時處分什麼時候會生效憲法訴訟法第37條暫時處分的裁判要從先告跟公告的那一天開始才發生效率耶"},{"start":8297.657,"end":8319.004,"text":"沒有發生效率你就算依法要行政啊該給金人加薪你就要給啊幫警消人員的手的貼你就要給啊你這是嚴重違法耶來 發布部長我問一下委員報告這一次的預算幅度是史上三級最高的一次不只是第一個違法亂政的行政院長總統再這樣下去也是跟著是違法亂政的總統欸 聽聽那個法務部長有一句話就好"},{"start":8321.625,"end":8349.23,"text":"法務部長來依照刑罰第二百一百二十五條第一項第三款你如果明知有罪之人然後無故不死期受到追訴或者是處罰者現在卓榮泰是賭職罪我現在當場告發時間到了我當場告發卓榮泰告發卓榮泰他賭職如果法務部沒有辦你是同罪有判刑對不起"},{"start":8350.475,"end":8377.583,"text":"昨天不是只有吳宗憲這樣罵你國血淋頭你身為法務部長啊應該趕快去打正啊趕快把該給金人加薪的把該給警消人員的所得退休所得還可以趕快編進來不要再違法亂證了但是行政院長一句話就可以暫停要真正生效現在會請王育民委員質詢應該要憲法法庭裁定以後才會公告才有效謝謝好 請王育民委員質詢"},{"start":8378.723,"end":8388.087,"text":"那個請政 政部長 法務部政部長對張文剛才的回答的質詢你在書面提供給他好不好好 請 經過問請像 像我未報告我們質詢到劉淑冰委員之後我們就休息四分鐘"},{"start":8406.206,"end":8412.355,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請主計長還有勞動部部長主計長還有我們的紅部長委員好"},{"start":8419.051,"end":8442.231,"text":"主席長好主席長我請教你好勞動部他編了一筆預算呢是923萬2000元是在勞動力發展業務裡面這一筆預算這個立法院預算中心呢他已經講了就是他是要挹注就業安定基金請問他這樣的編列可以嗎你有看到這筆預算是這樣編列嗎"},{"start":8447.266,"end":8452.76,"text":"你不知道 主席長不知道你都沒有在看各部會的這一些他編進來的預算"},{"start":8455.336,"end":8479.936,"text":"妳沒有在看 那誰在看 誰在把關我們是每一個同仁都有在看然後每一個都有注意他各自部會的一個項目那這個部分挹注他一個基金他裡面也會寫啦他沒有寫但是這一個可能是他的一個那個篇幅沒有那麼多所以就寫得沒有那麼詳細他沒有寫 報告裡面隻字未提可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":8481.46,"end":8509.65,"text":"我先問主席長 總統部長主席長可以這樣嗎如果有部會是這樣子的你允許嗎一般是這樣原則上我們說明欄裡面會加寫但是如果說有時候項目太多這個部在以後在審查的時候再補充書面資料這個是你們的疏失喔你們根本沒有提出來是由這個立法院的預算中心很盡責的指出來喔那接下來我要問這個部長喔你這一筆預算是不是就是要補就業安定基金"},{"start":8510.407,"end":8535.815,"text":"跟委員說明這筆預算的使用是這樣其實用途上面是去補地方的就業中心的人事費但是它是由公務預算補給救安基金救安基金再來支出地方不是補救安基金是補地方的這個就業中心的人事費它是辦你就業保險的人"},{"start":8536.975,"end":8557.771,"text":"妳是直接供預算就下到地方的就業中心不是嗎 妳要進到救安基金然後救安基金做這樣的支出所以妳覺得這行政程序上面有很大的問題為什麼報告裡面不敢提這麼正當的事情為什麼提都不提這個程序有問題第二個我要問妳就是"},{"start":8559.453,"end":8580.025,"text":"現在的救安基金的裁員事實上是非常的充裕的都還有盈餘按照預算法第79條裡面的第一項第三款裡面所辦的這個事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算時才可以去追加預算"},{"start":8581.766,"end":8600.156,"text":"請問你現在為什麼多加了這筆900多萬是有符合這樣的情況嗎是有發生什麼重大的情況重大的變故導致無法因應嗎有嗎跟委員說明因為其實這筆錢其實它的來源源頭就是來自於公務預算過去就是這樣過去就是來自公務預算"},{"start":8601.537,"end":8610.589,"text":"我就是說就是來自於公務預算但是因為現在它被刪減了以後變成是我們在地方就業中心的人力欲缺不補有被刪減嗎有在委員會有刪減你嗎後來是被刪減的後來是誰刪減表決上面是被刪減的"},{"start":8617.819,"end":8633.292,"text":"沒有啊 我們在委員會沒有刪減這筆錢這個900多萬是刪減的是通案刪減的可是這個讓我們在就業中心的人力變成要欲缺不補那現在比方面對關稅的問題可能會到我們這個地方就業中心的人"},{"start":8633.892,"end":8658.9,"text":"這一個部分你們程序上面我覺得就是有問題你們沒有直接講你的用處而且沒有直接講出來你講到了這個主計長你知道以後你在監督各部會他提預算的時候明明是要編給基金的這個按照規定你就是要講清楚而且應該要把基金的相關預算也要送上來這個勞動部通通都沒有做到接下來我要問你剛剛提到的就是紓困的部分"},{"start":8659.72,"end":8688.74,"text":"現在關稅我們看到這個人數是暴增一倍啊從1955人現在是3934暴增了一倍上個禮拜我有要求勞動部你要因應這一個去研議你的紓困貸款我認為你應該要提早啟動年底的紓困貸款可以提早啟動第二個金額增加所以追加預算如果真的是要用在勞工身上的我們都同意但是不要魚目混珠不要說要編給基金的又不敢寫"},{"start":8689.66,"end":8705.885,"text":"基金是用在勞工身上的這一個部長你可以影響這個要幫助勞工的你可以做到嗎紓困貸款的部分可不可以提早提到對於關稅的衝擊對勞工我們現在都在加碼都在把幫助跟支持的力道給強化紓困貸款可不可以提早我覺得各種方案我們可以跟委員這邊來討論"},{"start":8711.687,"end":8718.173,"text":"把那個報告給我好 謝謝戴款的這個部分應該要提早讓勞工可以與預來因應好 謝謝我們現在會請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":8736.329,"end":8747.332,"text":"我請內政部 金管會 財政部內政部的劉部長 金管會的潘主委還有衛福部 財政部的莊部長委員好"},{"start":8765.964,"end":8772.988,"text":"各位好我們今天來這個追加減預算也是政府沒有錢不能辦事對不對對 當我們在施政上以及各項業務推動上有這樣的一個實際需求對 政府沒有錢就不能辦事我今天請三個部會來劉部長"},{"start":8788.072,"end":8815.199,"text":"我們的一直在講微老微老的改建這個是政府積極推動的政策而且我們跟人民講你微老你就是不需要透過建商或什麼自己可以來做嘛對不對是的但我不知道部長知不知道現在很多微老的案子銀行都不貸款有聽說過這樣的例子我們正在想辦法要看如何解決那今天都在這能不能解決"},{"start":8818.713,"end":8844.39,"text":"來金管會財政部你們可以回答社保委員我們現在金管會主政的是銀行法72之2條的上限的問題我們在那個72之2的時候我們把危老都更已經排除在外面了那時候我們還有修法我們內政委員立法院都有修法對不對這已經排除了你不要跟我講法條我時間有限你們要怎麼解決"},{"start":8845.922,"end":8873.025,"text":"我們這邊銀行法的部分我們這邊沒有這個障礙那是其他可能信用管制的問題然後呢 所以你無法解決是不是我在我金管會主政的範圍的這部分我們已經針對這部分已經把他排除那我問你 你所有的銀行所有的不按照政府的法令去做你束手無策嗎不是 這是還有其他的主管機關在處理來 財政部你覺得呢"},{"start":8874.466,"end":8898.013,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛金管會已經說了就是銀行法那個限制百分之三十的限制其實已經排除危老跟都更那這個部分我想各個銀行他就可以根據金管會的這樣的一個放寬的一個應該就可以去做但沒有做我想這個部分所謂沒有做的話是不是可以讓我們了解一下他的個案情況這不是個案你剛剛劉部長也講了這已經變通案了不是個案"},{"start":8904.337,"end":8926.193,"text":"人民你政府一直鼓勵人家結果人家做了你政府又不支持你這是騙人民我想政府是一致性的你知不知道像危老這個他們是不用透過建商結果你們銀行百般找麻煩不貸款給人家"},{"start":8927.758,"end":8938.683,"text":"不然還甚至有的人有的銀行說你去找建商來跟你一起蓋這是什麼道理啊你們今天三個都在這邊沒有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":8940.474,"end":8964.033,"text":"報告委員您這關心的問題我們在尋求解決之道第一個就是自主都更然後再來就看能不能通過一個都更會然後盡量排除由建商來主導那這個部分我們跟財政還有金管單位都在處理看怎麼樣處理會比較好部長我跟你講人家危老的人家民眾自己蓋的現在銀行都借不到錢"},{"start":8964.713,"end":8978.59,"text":"我們有了解這個狀況我跟你講如果你們連這個都沒有辦法解決我跟你講那你們的追加預算也不用給你們啊因為給你們錢你們不會處理事情啊給你們錢你們不處理事情啊那幹嘛給你們錢"},{"start":8979.898,"end":9006.693,"text":"那你們自己沒錢就說沒有辦法做事我們追加預算是法定或是我們在重大盛事上面要追加回來的部長 打房我們都很支持但這個危老 我一直在強調我現在只有講危老喔我只要你們解決這個問題喔再給我們一點時間來溝通你們如果沒有辦法解決你們沒有辦法解決我們也不用給你們追加減預算啦因為你們不會做事啦"},{"start":9008.919,"end":9014.1,"text":"好 謝謝張委員的質詢現在要請劉書斌委員質詢請劉委員質詢完畢 我們休息十分鐘好 有請教育部長 文化部長 還有主計長教育部的詹部長 文化部的李部長還有哪一位 三位還有主計長"},{"start":9046.926,"end":9068.954,"text":"好 幾位首長好先針對教育部部長來做一下質詢在這一次的追加預算當中我們看到的是教育部他在增加了五千多萬然後相關的部會當中我們看到的是最重要的是在是因為理由根據"},{"start":9071.523,"end":9077.208,"text":"預算中心裡面的評估報告裡面呈現出來是因為第三項79條第三項的所辦事業因為重大事故經費超過法定預算然後在這個情況之下的時候我們當然大家請問說到底有沒有重大事件發生事項但是最重要的是這次迴編當中有提到的是在媒體的文宣費當中增加了四成"},{"start":9092,"end":9103.347,"text":"那尤其是如果是針對文宣費這邊它必須根據預算法的62條還必須提出要根據要列明辦理金額跟執行事項執行內容這邊要都提出來這部分呢要都要看出來的沒有提出來正式的報告那文化部長同樣也是這樣那個旅館部長"},{"start":9111.252,"end":9127.828,"text":"您的這個報告當中也提到的是文化部提供了2億8千多萬的部分那2億8千多萬也是根據預算中心的報告通通都是要是跟絕大部分都是在回撥的這個部分把過去35%還回撥下去同樣的是在預算的在"},{"start":9132.152,"end":9138.919,"text":"屬於文宣的部分呢也是回的占到4成同樣也是遇到79條跟第62條的部分來進行那這部分請回答一下你們這部分沒有列明辦理金額也沒有執行內容這怎麼樣讓我們大院來去審呢"},{"start":9149.77,"end":9172.068,"text":"我們來去審呢其實我們是被刪掉11億這次回編大概2億多我們這樣的比例其實非常低大概25%都不到那我們所編的每一筆錢都是原來要用的已經被刪掉後我剛才有報告我們整個文化部到8月以前都是靠企業來捐款靠大家個人來捐款"},{"start":9172.768,"end":9193.691,"text":"還有出國靠自己的錢如果能夠回編的話我們下半年有金鐘金馬有大概七八個大型的典禮我們都沒有錢去宣傳其實我們已經面臨到這個地步所以這部分在看到的是因為是依照79條的第三項重大事故你是把立法院的審查這部分當作重大事故嗎我們其實"},{"start":9195.552,"end":9209.02,"text":"對 這個也算重大事故因為我們文化部最重要的就是到了年底的這幾個月最重要的金馬獎 金鐘獎 還有金曲獎全部都在最後要出你如果這樣說的話等於說是把立法院的刪減預算權當作是一個重大事故差不多這個意思這是非常奇怪的說法"},{"start":9217.265,"end":9237.28,"text":"因為你這個刪減就是重大事故為什麼我們從1月到8月過的文宣費用這是文宣費用我想要跟大家說明的4成分那請你要說明那你的金額你必須要說明你沒有說明實際上就是一個疏忽而且就剛才可能在我們聽到的是主計長這邊都被詢問過的是要有相關的這個規定等等的重大事故主計長你認為這是重大事故嗎"},{"start":9246.526,"end":9250.724,"text":"立法院刪你的預算是而且是刪到史上還是最高的預算喔"},{"start":9252.129,"end":9279.896,"text":"報告委員因為它刪減它是有限定用就是百分比達到很高就是譬如說60%有的80%然後而且它還禁止流用所以影響到整個一個機關的一個執行所以這個部分當然是屬於重大因為機關它沒辦法執行像文化部它有全部被刪減的因為你們之前都沒有做溝通那最重要再問大家一個問題是這個主席長請你回覆一下如果你們不是不滿意的話你們竟然會做什麼樣的動作"},{"start":9281.056,"end":9300.206,"text":"不是我們原則上是希望說透過追加減預算的部分然後來跟立法院來做溝通就是說這個部分有自愛難行的部分是不是可以來就是你們下次的時候就必須做早早就要做這個事情不知道114年才出現這個問題115年再繼續做這些事情好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝我們劉委員的質詢那麼向委員報告我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9325.64,"end":9355.538,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9355.742,"end":9357.483,"text":"這裏面有個節奏的武器,還有幾乎都可以進行。"},{"start":9385.947,"end":9391.681,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9813.146,"end":9813.646,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9841.869,"end":9842.329,"text":"這裏是大廈的一間餐廳"},{"start":9885.623,"end":9897.23,"text":"這裏是一座大廈。這裏是一座大廈。"},{"start":9927.438,"end":9927.478,"text":"這裏有個房間"},{"start":10040.83,"end":10042.451,"text":"向委員會報告請各位維持會場的秩序請各位維持會場的秩序幕僚人員請不要在這裡面因為我們現在在九樓禮堂空氣品質非常不好所以請大家彼此尊重"},{"start":10065.319,"end":10069.162,"text":"我們現在繼續開會 在開會之前我做一個宣告我們現在是公開追加預算的詢答之後我們會機密預算的報告詢答處理那個地點改在"},{"start":10086.178,"end":10091.019,"text":"群間樓就這個樓501大概我們全部完畢以後我們就先我們先公開的詢答再來機密的詢答以及處理之後結束以後再回來處理就順序這個樣子好不好讓各位知道各位可以抓各位委員可以抓一下時間如果要參加機密預算的處理的話大概這個樣子好我們下一位請王世堅委員質詢時間10分鐘"},{"start":10114.546,"end":10122.592,"text":"請各位如果留在裡面請各位肅靜好不好尊重我們開會尊重我們開會如果需要講話請各位出去外面講話謝謝主席"},{"start":10136.304,"end":10147.296,"text":"沒想到我們官員的聲音比立委的聲音還大齁那個在立法院吵鬧是應當的啦那個主席我請農業部陳部長農業部陳部長我們其他人也請尊重我們開會好不好請大家在裡面不要講話啊喂齁"},{"start":10159.156,"end":10164.659,"text":"昨天丹納斯颱風特別條例農業部這203億元通過這非常好所以我們對農民做災害的補償做農水路的復旧這個都非常好但是"},{"start":10175.998,"end":10202.492,"text":"我們在今年也針對農業保險法也通過修正那把政府補貼給農民的保費比例提高到百分之七十五但是我們現在現在我們補貼給農民的除了強制保險租資跟稻民以外還是維持百分之五十你們說的是說預算不足"},{"start":10203.703,"end":10225.049,"text":"那我們之所以會有農業保險就是因為農業的災損農民得到政府補償大概26%而已那歷年來你也知道我們每一年的農損從數十億到數百億中間也就是說辛苦工作的農民們他們要自行負擔75%的這樣子的農損所以才會有農保"},{"start":10230.951,"end":10246.688,"text":"所以我在這邊我具體要求因為你給我的答覆裡面你說這個農保現在覆蓋率有達到53%你說今年啦到五月你說已經納保了19萬"},{"start":10249.686,"end":10270.575,"text":"覆蓋率53.9%但是那是包含強制保險的百分之百補貼的稻米跟豬隻含在裡面如果扣掉稻米豬隻這些強制的那其實只有17.3%而已我認為這個覆蓋率太低"},{"start":10272.179,"end":10298.399,"text":"而我們研究室在跟你們要求要農業部提出具體的方法比方說對農業保險的研議品項的研議增加比方說保費來提高補助從50%提高到現在農保法就有上限是70%啊那我說你把這個差額算出來多少算了半天"},{"start":10300.184,"end":10308.332,"text":"從5月算到現在我拿不到你的答覆所以我今天希望你帶回去這個問題好好研議好不好以及啊 腦農的"},{"start":10311.616,"end":10336.365,"text":"老農津貼的排富條款隨著從上回定的排富的標準那民國100年到現在14年這14年來我們整體社會經濟的進步社會財富的增加本來就幫把這個老農津貼的排富條款把它提高那個標準"},{"start":10338.12,"end":10356.587,"text":"我的提案裡面那個一點都沒有錯啊那個金額也不高財產從500萬提高到900萬每年收入從50萬提高到60萬你們也沒有一個答覆要不然你們的對策市場你們都是認為說通通不要動就對了"},{"start":10358.991,"end":10375.643,"text":"那這樣我們國會議員在監督你們什麼我跟委員簡單的說明就是牌付條款的部那個老農今天牌付條款的部分我們已經跟行政院報告過然後也現在在行政院已經審查所以預計在下個會期會把老農今天的牌付條款的這些牌付的這些"},{"start":10376.623,"end":10395.675,"text":"條例的修正會送到立法院來審議第二個部分是農業保險本身農業部雖然補助百分之五但是一般地方政府有補助到百分之三十到四十所以農民的負擔大概是百分之一般地方政府自己財政過來好 他補助金額那佔總保費多少你也把這個金額給我好不好好 那你請回你請回我還有一分鐘"},{"start":10400.782,"end":10414.792,"text":"那個主席還有1分鐘嗎時間到了時間到了好不好謝謝4分鐘了不是4加1喔沒有沒有就4分鐘好不好現在我請黃秀芳委員質詢抱歉啦這個因為今天要處理事情太多了謝謝謝謝主席我們先請經濟部次長經濟部請來一位經濟部經濟部的次長黃次長"},{"start":10432.475,"end":10438.821,"text":"官員好市長好市長我延續昨天還沒問完的就是說這一次丹納斯風災還有隔天的豪雨成災彰化地方有很多地窪的地方就都淹水例如說鹿港彰化市也有一部分彰化的西南角"},{"start":10454.255,"end":10466.469,"text":"方院 二林 大成這邊主堂也都有淹水的一個狀況那我想請教就是說我們這一次的追加預算裡面也有一個水資源的工程經費總共19億多"},{"start":10469.172,"end":10497.631,"text":"那我想請教的就是說除了這些原本可能我們原本的這些治水的計畫低窪的地區要怎麼來防洪這個防災那治水我是不是可以請這個市長針對這一部分可以再做一個說明那我認為就是說所有的這個防洪這個治水的部分應該是不可以只有就一個單點應該是要全面去評估"},{"start":10499.312,"end":10513.984,"text":"現在就是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳那我是不是可以先請次長針對這一部分未來在我們彰化這一邊鹿港這個淹水的部分那我們有什麼樣的計畫可以來解決這個淹水的部分好"},{"start":10514.564,"end":10530.612,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在治水的方向就是一個系統性治水就是可能跨部位大家一起來因為它這個不是只有一個單點而已它可能只有上中下游甚至就是說可能還有農水路還有我們的一般的區域的排水"},{"start":10531.332,"end":10546.699,"text":"這個系統其實我們都會一起把它跨部會大家一起來做整治好 那我希望就是說真的要做到跨部會因為像有的下游的部分做好了可是中上游可能是在市區它可能會有遇到一些困難"},{"start":10547.899,"end":10574.179,"text":"又就要跨部會的去協調可是這個跨部會的協調可能就會延宕很久所以會造成這樣子風災來那個颱風來或者是好雨來就淹水一年可能淹了十幾次我們希望就是說這個我們自己中央在執政我們希望能夠真正的跨部會去解決這個淹水的這個問題好不好好那接下來我可不可以請一下那個農業部部長農業部的陳部長請"},{"start":10581.897,"end":10599.228,"text":"我也好部長我想請教就是說因為前陣子這個颱風然後豪雨那地方有很多譬如說養豬 養雞可能就淹水那豬隻也損失非常的多我想請教因為接下來就是中原普渡"},{"start":10599.688,"end":10614.325,"text":"那再接下來就是中秋節那我今天看到一個新聞就是說這個營養午餐可能吃不到豬肉改由這個雞肉來取代那我想請教部長針對這樣的一個事情那我們要怎麼去解決"},{"start":10615.006,"end":10629.278,"text":"不要讓這個民眾要買豬肉來拜拜買不到那中秋節要烤肉買不到豬肉那豬肉的這個價格又一直在上漲那血統吃不到豬肉我覺得這是一個很嚴重的問題我是不是可以先請部長"},{"start":10630.419,"end":10634.201,"text":"我謝謝委員 針對最近一段時間豬肉的價格上漲我們大概從上個月開始就啟動了所謂冷凍工會這邊減少去拍賣場去抓豬第二個部分我們透過台糖去調度豬開始的時候現在的豬價大概回穩從過往的110塊現在已經降到大概99到100之間已經到了一個合理的區間"},{"start":10654.131,"end":10668.813,"text":"所以后续我们会持续的去监控然后去做透过调度的方式来维持稳定的一个租价是那现在你有看到今天的新闻吗就是说这个学童的南部学童热营养午餐是"},{"start":10669.413,"end":10683.482,"text":"可能會吃不到豬肉那類似這樣的一個問題當然我不希望就是說因為在豬肉的這個可能會用得非常多中元普渡中秋節可能都會用得非常的多那我想請教部長"},{"start":10684.463,"end":10696.957,"text":"不論是價格可能會有一些波動價格可能會提高你剛剛有說可能會用一些豬肉釋出可能讓價格能夠平穩是不是還有其他的方式讓學童的營養午餐確實能夠吃到豬肉"},{"start":10701.768,"end":10711.794,"text":"我跟委員報告因為學長午餐的部分他是用合約的方式年度是在跟學校去定價格是固定的時間到好謝謝我們現在請林俊憲委員質詢請謝謝主席本席邀請我們速發部今天是次長嗎速發部的張冠俊我們NCC的張大力主委"},{"start":10731.363,"end":10732.364,"text":"代理主委請委員好市長好兩位好在這次我們台南的災情"},{"start":10748.649,"end":10773.515,"text":"那其中大家知道非常慘重那有一點就是因為除了停電停水以外就整個通訊網路全部斷掉了所以造成了災民對外求救完全沒有辦法聯絡那我們要進去救災也產生了極大的困難甚至連手機Google地圖你都找不到"},{"start":10774.898,"end":10803.326,"text":"所以後來我們就檢討這一次的為什麼會斷訊的原因當時我就有在質詢NCC就請NCC要來開放災難漫遊因為台灣三大電信系統中華電信 遠傳 還有台科大中華電信的基礎建設最好所以在災區搶修的時候一想就有信號"},{"start":10804.861,"end":10823.737,"text":"但其他的啦其他的還沒信用的其他的兩家電信業者的使用者如果我們有開放災難漫遊他就可以跳過來使用啦我們有開放我們去國外旅遊都知道國外有一個國際漫遊但國內沒有災難漫遊還有"},{"start":10825.745,"end":10852.55,"text":"我們救災政府原本有建立一個叫PPDR就是公共安全還有救難應變系統他指的也是在災難的時候電信業者能夠讓出一定的評判給政府來使用因為在這次的救災我們也看見因為政府要救災跟一般民用大家混雜在擠在那個網路上"},{"start":10853.689,"end":10873.735,"text":"所以也造成救災一個困難但是我們今天要追加預算我要提這一點這個就是在審查總預算的時候我們在野黨其實就把這兩項政府要做的增強通信韌性的預算全部刪除掉了我告訴你黑白太無聲亂砍預算這個也是個證明我們來看一下災難漫遊"},{"start":10882.659,"end":10896.741,"text":"在那漫遊原本都是編在速發部的獎補助款啦速發部這次的追加預算啦我希望你這兩個事情要優先來做啦"},{"start":10897.796,"end":10917.155,"text":"那在那漫遊NCC已經有協調開放有認證過了嘛我們請陳代主委是 跟委員報告在漫遊我們在8月7號已經啟動做先導性的然後定期檢討上禮拜21號已經開過檢討會未來要朝著SOP制度化來做訂定一些相關作業要點好那這樣的預算"},{"start":10919.201,"end":10943.928,"text":"之前是編列在速發部啦對不對市長在我們速發部的我們先前有一個這個前導的這個測試計畫2000萬左右我秀出來給你看啦在這個預算裡面當時被在野黨給砍掉了就支持數位韌性的跨業者行動網路接收的驗證你這段預算被砍掉了還有建立我們國家"},{"start":10945.816,"end":10968.208,"text":"救災公共與救難應變PBDR的通信是因驗證是這因為三檢預算這個也被砍掉了這就是我跟你說的這個亂砍預算在這次救災就嚴重的影響到這個救災的那個通信所以你這次的預算追加回來我認為這兩個業務你應該列在裡面因為你被砍掉35億"},{"start":10973.615,"end":10992.91,"text":"我看你這次最佳 蘇澳不只有最佳12億啦其中本部預算最佳6億那我不曉得6億你要怎麼去分配那如果要分配的話這幾個應該是列為優先是的 有關這個PPDR部分我們有追加6千萬希望能夠更盡快來做這樣好 謝謝謝謝林基建委員的質詢下一位請麥玉珍"},{"start":10996.993,"end":11003.479,"text":"麥玉珍 麥玉珍委員不在 感謝喔我們現在會請李坤城委員質詢請謝謝主席 我們請主計長陳主計長請"},{"start":11022.779,"end":11049.642,"text":"委員好主席長好 辛苦了今天台北市長蔣萬安他要去行政院開這個院會他很生氣他說為什麼中央要裝冷氣那是電費要的地方來出然後新北市長侯友宜在上禮拜跟了一大堆的校長講他說你們校長你們可能不知道接下來的冷氣中央不出錢了你們要由學校自己來負責"},{"start":11051.394,"end":11067.549,"text":"然後呢 侯永瑜就拍拍胸部沒有關係 新北市來幫你們出我就覺得很奇怪啊請教一下這個主席長這個明年給這個地方的這個統籌分配款有沒有增加他們有沒有錢來付這個電費啊"},{"start":11069.639,"end":11088.44,"text":"明年因為財化法的關係我們給地方的統籌分配稅款會增加4165億那它原來就有4676億兩個合起來就8千多億然後財化法又規定一般性補助款要維持然後縣市又要求希望"},{"start":11088.88,"end":11108.04,"text":"我們計畫性補助那個補助的比例不能變動還有已經核定的要照常執行這是我們沒辦法負擔的所以這個部分一定是要把原來地方制度法規定屬於地方自治的事項回歸給地方去編列這才有辦法解決"},{"start":11108.881,"end":11134.676,"text":"這個按照地方自助法的第18條第19條還有國民教育法的第8條的規定轄區內的學校經費是屬於地方政府的職責但是因為過去中央錢比較多所以我們有補助地方但是如果現在地方拿到統籌分配款比過去多了比如像台北市比過去多了444億新北市比過去多了410億那他們有沒有錢來繳這個電費"},{"start":11138.42,"end":11158.013,"text":"他是絕對有錢的像如果說台北市的話我光是統籌分配稅款加我現在目前一般性社福的分配如果光是這兩項他就多出100多億計劃型的部分還沒有合但是沒有辦法還沒有合給他這個部分但是他光是這兩項加起來就增加100多億"},{"start":11158.874,"end":11177.34,"text":"所以主席長我跟你講這是所有我們所有的內閣部會首長都在這邊我就跟你講現在不論是蔣萬安侯友宜或是盧秀燕他就一條一條拿出來跟你講他說他以前過去都是中央編的為什麼現在變成地方編但是沒關係地方咬緊牙關也要編"},{"start":11178.3,"end":11198.002,"text":"但是其實是中央給地方的錢啊就本來是中央的錢變成這個地方的統售分配款地方的統售分配款也增加了所以本來要由地方來出的事這些錢不是就應該由地方來出嗎這就是我們當初來修財化法的時候一直提到就是說我們的財權跟事權一定要分清楚不要拿錢不辦事嘛但是我跟你講你們現在吃虧了"},{"start":11199.964,"end":11215.18,"text":"現在他就會跟所有的地方的不論那些校長不論那些地方那些人就跟你們講這些本來是中央要給的經費他現在就跟你講啦租金的補貼啦學校的電費啦弱勢學生的營養午餐費啦中央以後都不出了"},{"start":11216.161,"end":11238.914,"text":"以後由地方自己出那明明就是地方有增加這些經費但是他不會跟你講所以我要求主計處你們要把本來由這個中央出的現在因為統籌分配款的地方增加了由地方出的有哪一些是由以前中央出現在改由地方出但是因為你們統籌分配款增加了把它一條一條列出來好不好你們有這個準備了嗎有"},{"start":11240.715,"end":11256.051,"text":"有嗎 有這些資料了嗎如果有這些資料你給我一份我跟你講 接下來像蔣萬安這一種的跑去說中央不出了 我地方出會越來越多像蔣萬安這種的那原本就是因為地方統籌分款增加了嘛"},{"start":11256.992,"end":11276.739,"text":"增加了你有足夠的費用可以去處理這件事情但是你們要做好防衛不然以後一條一條出來講都說中央不出的地方出那原本地方就有錢出了嘛因為財務法已經通過現在財務法通過了嘛把這資料準備一份給我謝謝李棍城委員的質詢 謝謝現在要請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":11284.544,"end":11287.317,"text":"我可不可以請一下主席長以及陳主席長"},{"start":11294.758,"end":11315.498,"text":"委員好主席長我剛才聽到幾位委員在質詢統籌分配款新制的統籌分配款跟一般性的補助款這是完全在地方上執行這是完全兩大塊不一樣的項目對於地方補助款這是執行中央跟地方大家共同認同的很多業務"},{"start":11317.423,"end":11334.932,"text":"大家可以來執行現在是針對地方的補助款你們現在調整了一個新制的補助方式這補助方式未來是各單位用政策性方式來跟各縣市來跟各部會來去做溝通需求第一個"},{"start":11336.313,"end":11352.213,"text":"過去行之有年的一套公式我們對於公式的內容我們可以重新再做討論但是這個黑箱的新制辦法第一個未來會增加中央跟地方你們要花耗費更多的時間來去做討論"},{"start":11354.315,"end":11368.584,"text":"未來你們的想法你們覺得可以地方覺得一定要的或者很有需求的你們中間覺得不需要但是憑良心長站在第一線了解各縣市居民第一線的需求他們是站在第一線"},{"start":11369.685,"end":11394.951,"text":"無論是地方縣市政府無論是各政黨執政的縣市他們都有他們希望執政的亮點台北市跟台南可能不一樣因為每一個城鄉差距希望推動的政策不一樣所以這就是為什麼我們覺得在這個時間點上丟出來這些問題很可怕然後再來是我覺得蔣萬安還有好幾位包括台南 新北"},{"start":11395.911,"end":11411.238,"text":"桃園其實都有共通的想法還不只是只有萊茵的執政縣市新制的這些補助款的處理形式未來會造成很多的紛爭我再次提醒你要思考清楚不要讓人家覺得"},{"start":11412.018,"end":11433.853,"text":"鬥完在野黨之後才講說要朝野對話現在變成跟各縣市的市民縣民在做鬥爭跟各縣市的縣市首長在做鬥爭以上是我對於整個統籌分配款跟一般性的補助款做的跟您做的提醒好你請回接下來我要請衛福部部長部長就部長請"},{"start":11441.55,"end":11457.997,"text":"部長辛苦你了謝謝你雖然留任時間沒有剩下幾天但是我第一個我還是要肯定你包括在過去很多醫界關注的政策你都一一落實完成第二我長期關注的帶狀性炮診疫苗的風險評估報告"},{"start":11460.379,"end":11479.06,"text":"我相信這個是過去你無論當立委或過去這幾年你聽到這是很重要因為肥腸癌也好帶狀性泡疹現在在台灣大家得了一生很可能再犯所以那個再犯率很高或長期的疼痛所以這個風險評估報告我仍舊希望不管你在哪裡都可以繼續關注這些事情"},{"start":11480.081,"end":11494.276,"text":"第二件事情我现在57秒我要关注的就是我们现在的医疗院所HIS系统这个HIS系统当然是好事因为它无论是借由系统的统一规范应用程式它可以整合我们数位医疗平台"},{"start":11495.417,"end":11521.821,"text":"這個系統第一個我是肯定的但是對於醫學中心它可能有經費因為這是雲端的整個建置系統統一但是對於地方的醫療系統它可能在建置這個系統過程當中它常要更新廠商每一次來要一年更新一次明年要更新一次對於很多醫療小診所它就是一筆不小的費用這個怎麼處理我要聽當然我支持整個"},{"start":11522.361,"end":11522.781,"text":"對於大的系統"},{"start":11545.999,"end":11556.724,"text":"但是我提醒就是對於醫療院所基層的是很辛苦的所以第一我有三點再給我三十秒就好了雲端HIT系統第一個要整合第二個我們希望配合在HIT系統還沒普及之前我們的政策更新的費用我覺得我們要留住好不好我們會來落實 請放心你提的都很重要"},{"start":11572.37,"end":11587.331,"text":"我們已經積極在進行要補助喔 要補助喔感謝委員支持今天非常趕 抱歉抱歉這個蘇喬漢委員之心 報告委員會我們現在可以用餐喔如果便當到你面前你可以用喔"},{"start":11588.992,"end":11611.577,"text":"謝謝很抱歉 再次跟委員抱歉因為今天要處理事情太多了時間非常趕所以只能夠給10分鐘好 我們請蘇委好 謝謝主席我想請主計長 經濟部次長內政部 海委會內政部部長 海委會主委 謝謝不好意思一次請您上台因為時間有限我們經濟部 財政部我就按照順序 主計長金管會一起 來主計長"},{"start":11615.745,"end":11618.927,"text":"主席長好剛剛在這個議場當中接連聽了幾位委員的質詢有提到了這個統籌分配款及一般這個補助款這樣的狀況我剛剛聽到的用詞是說啦說真的這個我們其實中央跟地方之間這個"},{"start":11633.418,"end":11651.358,"text":"統籌分配款 一般補助款都是非常重要的裁員而且有行之有年的分配公式大家都很習慣希望未來不要黑箱決定剛剛您說到這樣有聽到這樣的質詢嘛 對不對那你的意見是你會好好注意嘛妥善分配嘛 對不對坦白講我聽了實在是很感慨啦很感慨啦"},{"start":11655.562,"end":11673.127,"text":"這一段話有既定的公式希望能夠好好的討論不要黑箱不就是當時我們在處理財化法的時候我們的主張我們的要求嗎我們不是正要求說這一套財化法當然應該要改身為新北市的代表我主張新北市要有更多的錢更多的預算"},{"start":11675.488,"end":11694.802,"text":"可是問題是為什麼最後分配的比例是花蓮的增加比例比我新北市400萬人口的大市還要多呢我就不懂這個公式是什麼嘛好 所以這樣一套的制度下去之後今天也已經走到這裡了啦我們雖然不願意但時間確實是來到這裡所以組織長 我覺得"},{"start":11699.985,"end":11726.77,"text":"這個當家的也就是要擔責任啦主席長我期免你啦在這個時段好好的冷靜的下來啦我們誠意的跟地方好好的就這個我們未來的國家總體裁員做一個分配啦辛苦了但我希望也是我們好好的跟地方討論未來市權錢要怎麼分配怎麼做重新把公式訂出來這是主席長我對你的期許啦謝謝主席長請回"},{"start":11728.55,"end":11749.881,"text":"那經濟部利用短短的時間跟你請教全國電纜地下化的部分這次的風災看到了平和公路電纜地下化很好所以沒有斷電蘭嶼也地下化沒有斷電所以卓院長在8月16的時候說他支持全國要電纜地下化的評估要來啟動對不對經濟部有這件事情嗎請問你錢從哪裡來"},{"start":11752.663,"end":11756.286,"text":"你台電上一次沒有被撥補啊去年的預算撥補沒有被撥補嘛特別條例的要增加的也沒有被增加啊那明年的總預算你有嗎跟委員報告我們平屋報告昨天那個曾董事長也承諾大概兩個月會提出來那這個電纜地下化的經費是一個很龐大的經費"},{"start":11773.424,"end":11785.529,"text":"沒錯啊所以先從評估我連你評估的錢在哪裡坦白講我都還不知道啦因為台電的錢就是一直被卡住嘛所以既然全國現在都支持電纜地下化經濟部我請你好好的說明把錢要從哪裡來不然包括不要說是地下化的評估連我現在地方電纜地下化工程做到一半"},{"start":11797.373,"end":11801.278,"text":"台電都沒有錢可以來做了這件事情應該要講清楚嘛誰卡住了錢讓我們的工程不能進行這個應該要做到啦好 謝謝經濟部啦那接下來內政部跟海委會兩位部長和主委啦那因為實際"},{"start":11812.59,"end":11825.18,"text":"說控制的這麼嚴格那我其實是想表達我就是在內政委員會裡面這一次的預算確實被刪了非常的多包括了生活道路生活圈道路系統刪了這邊刪了這麼多永續人行人安全計畫也通通都刪了嘛所以我的限到105的這個部分其實我要評估也竟然跟我說有危險"},{"start":11836.289,"end":11852.913,"text":"人行道計畫也要停污水下水道甚至我們白袍湖社會住宅全刪所以這一次我雖然看到了在追加預算當中您有提出相關的追加可是我也看到了有委員提出要把內政部的預算是全部刪除部長全部刪除啊"},{"start":11856.004,"end":11873.95,"text":"那海委會一樣啊海委會 你的艦艇到底交了沒有有沒有尾款可以付還要再付違約利息主委 這個我等一下希望我們在討論的時候審查都要能夠說清楚啊好 審查時候再來說清楚好 下一位請鄭天才委員質詢請"},{"start":11887.198,"end":11892.975,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請主席長還有陳主席長 請 顏明慧的主委"},{"start":11903.957,"end":11926.35,"text":"主席長今天審查最佳預算之前我也跟你提過了最主要就是說這個預算提案但是這個預算提案其實真的很清楚一般性補助款真的沒有刪何況行政院主計總署"},{"start":11928.032,"end":11950.905,"text":"送來的立法院的一般性補助款是依法例義務支出 非常的明確然後民進黨在今年1月21號的臉書也特別提到這個是中央法定支出民進黨臉書也認定 未刪減這個一般性補助款好 新年走到這個地步"},{"start":11952.844,"end":11979.31,"text":"不得不要去處理了當然為什麼呢我們回顧當時就是為了大罷免讓我們各部會所長再回顧一下韓國瑜院長主持兩天的協商而且還特別講可以增加兩天禮拜六禮拜天也可以但是當初都沒有當時為了大罷免營造所以"},{"start":11980.202,"end":12000.271,"text":"我們的柯總召都不協商全部都講這些跟預算無關的這是第一個第二個提出復一案行政院提出一百一十四年度總預算的復一案的時候傅坤祺總召特別提到"},{"start":12001.636,"end":12026.262,"text":"如果不足的可以提追加預算那時候就講過了可以提追加預算但是一直沒有提出來你們結果還去刪減不應該刪減的一般性補助款這個就是還原這個整個來源所以在這樣的一個情形之下今天提出這個像中選會的這個"},{"start":12028.004,"end":12054.995,"text":"以前都是用公民投票以前全部都是用第二一倍金現在是已經用了還要再追加預算這個是不要再這麼荒唐主計長要有一個擔當要有個擔當要把過去長年以來中華民國政府長年以來的這個制度要把它建立好不可以隨便"},{"start":12057.179,"end":12081.944,"text":"改來改去所以這個部分大家討論的時候都可以討論第六個133億這個就是剛才我講的你去刪減一般性補償然後又要各部會統三就超過了超過636億之前我提過那個"},{"start":12085.083,"end":12113.295,"text":"原住民原鄉的一般性補助館後來你補回來了時間的關係最後 政政要最佳預算的是原住民族綜合發展基金105年的時候馬英九留下來的是117億7081萬1千元的原住民族綜合發展基金結果從106年開始挪用挪用挪用"},{"start":12115.07,"end":12137.466,"text":"總共挪用到53億多現在是負67億多真正要追加預算的是這個何況立法院在106年度的預算的主決議也提到要返還挪用的經費"},{"start":12142.196,"end":12154.97,"text":"所以曾主委 你要很勇敢的要去爭取 要提出來返還67億多 可能還不值了因為113億還沒有出來好 以上謝謝謝謝鄭委員的質詢 下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢 請"},{"start":12171.505,"end":12175.789,"text":"還有行政院副秘書長行政院的副秘書長請"},{"start":12191.598,"end":12215.567,"text":"好 三位首長好我想今天是追加預算的尋答我有幾個非常重要的問題我想請教一下總統府的部分在去年113年預算是151億然後決算的時候還剩了3.58億今年的預算已經暴增到156億將近增加了5億為什麼還要再追加3000億"},{"start":12220.137,"end":12244.259,"text":"謝謝委員你們去年錢都花不完3.58億的剩餘今年又幫你們增加了5億的錢整個加起來應該多了7、8億的錢但是你們沒有用完也就算了為什麼今年還要追加3000多萬黃委員可以允許我把數字請你簡要說明好嗎原因是什麼就好你不用跟我講數字我們這一次的預算法定預算114年度其實只有10億而已"},{"start":12246.004,"end":12273.589,"text":"所以其他都是什麼錢就是你去年為什麼剩下3.58億我們去年並沒有剩下3.58億我的數字是決算數字是審計部的數字行政院副秘書長請你回答我行政院在去年的預算是345億剩餘用不完的錢是12億今年你們的預算也暴增到362億然後增加了將近7億今年你還要再追加45億行政院在幹嘛呢"},{"start":12275.669,"end":12296.385,"text":"委員的數字可能有誤解那是行政院主管不是行政院院本部是 所以我現在就要問你你主管的業務你還不知道嗎主管業務不是我主管的是你總署主管的所以你今天來代表行政院但是你沒有辦法回答行政院的問題我回答院本部的問題只能回答院本部是 謝謝所以你也不知道你為什麼去年設這麼多錢好 財政部"},{"start":12299.295,"end":12321.481,"text":"部長你去年也剩很多錢啊你去年剩下了142億沒有花光啊你現在又來追加五千多萬我要問的是三位喔今天追加預算要符合預算法79條如果沒有符合相關的規定的話你們現在預算全部暴增但是又來用追加預算我個人認為"},{"start":12322.921,"end":12351.17,"text":"理由要說清楚跟委員說明一下我們114年度所編的預算比113年少30億因為我們是逐一去檢討計劃但是你剩下一百多億有一些是屬於債務還息的部分因為我們的債務條度所以你剩下的錢是債務還息那個錢是不能拿來做其他用是債務還息的我要說的是三位你們必須要說明清楚今天立法院要通過到你們要不要追加預算你要連說清楚是"},{"start":12351.73,"end":12359.116,"text":"你的預算增加你的剩餘這麼多但是你還要今天來再用追加預算表示你們對於預算跟業務的了解我覺得是有很大的問題好總統府可以回答了嗎"},{"start":12368.954,"end":12385.893,"text":"各位委員報告我們的執行率其實來到95%那扣除掉這些人事費用還有剩下3000多萬所以去年花不完今年還欠錢但是你預算增加5億要怎麼解釋呢你總統有新增什麼偉大的業務嗎"},{"start":12387.642,"end":12416.052,"text":"我們並沒有增加五億沒有增加那你增加五億是哪裡來的我們可以快速跟委員報告這個是我們下面還有國安會我要說的是符不符合預算法79條必須要清楚的對外建設委員是專業的所以這個部分絕對尊重但是我們的執行率是高的這個跟委員報告我希望今天追加預算不是只有看到你們用地方政府的一般補助款來夾帶你們自己各單位的追加預算我覺得是很不合宜"},{"start":12416.832,"end":12443.143,"text":"因為地方政府的一般補助款被砍掉現在用追加預算來立法院其實是有擄人熱鼠的嫌疑綁著地方政府補助款逼著立法院一定要通過然後夾帶出這麼多奇怪的預算要拜託委員支持這一次的預算是史上煽動最多的我還是認為說三個單位請你給我一個完整的書面說明我會在今天的部分加入相關的代替決議拜託委員支持 懇請委員支持"},{"start":12445.184,"end":12448.147,"text":"好 下一位請謝一鳳委員質詢請謝謝主席我想要請行政院副秘書長還有經濟部次長副秘書長 經濟部次長兩位委員好"},{"start":12474.471,"end":12491.296,"text":"副秘書長好啊我現在問的問題絕對是行政院層級的我想請問這一次的對美的談判那我們看到了像南韓他是由總統李在民他去"},{"start":12492.458,"end":12517.49,"text":"美國直接的談那帶了所有的企業家以及所有關鍵的技術那希望跟美國有深化的合作那目前我們由行政院副院長的陳吉到美國去談並好像沒有談出什麼啊你們保密了所有的內容啊那沒有談出什麼啊那是不是"},{"start":12518.79,"end":12546.217,"text":"都已經談成這樣子了我們看到韓國 南韓 日本我們有沒有要改變我們的策略你說各位報告 目前談判還在持續進行中對 我知道在進行中啊我說有沒有要改變策略啊你沒回答我啊這個部分要涉及談判小組的決策問題了這是不是你們行政院層級的也不能回答嗎這個部分的話我沒有參與抱歉"},{"start":12548.277,"end":12568.881,"text":"那到底我們要不要擴大跟美國其他方面的例如SMR核能還有航太關鍵的礦產等相關的合作跟技術呢市長這你有沒有了解市長"},{"start":12572.793,"end":12582.075,"text":"跟我們報告因為我沒有參與到這個部分所以我也沒有辦法跟您在這邊做回答在場的有誰有參與何志偉應該沒參與吧你不要來搞亂還有我們之前一直在強調的就是非核供應鏈"},{"start":12600.222,"end":12626.536,"text":"這個經濟部也做了非常多嘛這個有參與了吧 對不對你們也做了非常多那有沒有辦法藉由這一次的跟美國的談判能夠有一個什麼共同的基地啊或者是也就是技術的中心啊等等的讓你們認為說飛鴻工信業是未來跟美國"},{"start":12628.339,"end":12649.758,"text":"可能說我們蘇美最重要有利基的商品那有沒有辦法有深化的合作你們經濟部你回答目前在美國有沒有什麼能夠深化供應鏈整合的合作可以拿出來這次談"},{"start":12651.119,"end":12670.941,"text":"跟委員報告我們台美之間的合作在有一些科技面的部分像半導體半導體這個部分還有無人機這個部分其實過去都有一些技術合作的一些經驗剛剛委員提到的飛龍供應鏈的部分也是美方非常重視的部分"},{"start":12671.562,"end":12697.028,"text":"對啊 未來我們跟美國的出口有這個跟其他相比有利基的嗎所以我們在這個出口管制上面會有很多的一些這個資訊的一個監控那如果這個大陸這邊有一些傾銷的行為的話我們也會有展開一些傾銷的一個調查那甚至就是說如果有違反這個相關的這個"},{"start":12698.968,"end":12701.512,"text":"但是你們兩位都不知道現在目前台美正在談判的就是關稅談判"},{"start":12716.012,"end":12731.177,"text":"內容你們都不知道但是有沒有辦法深化這樣子的產業你們也沒辦法知道這個產業合作是深化是目前來講我們會談到供應面合作的部分再跟謝委員報告好了好不好好 謝謝謝委員的資訊 謝謝下一位請王美惠委員資訊請"},{"start":12744.667,"end":12745.527,"text":"主席我們現在經濟保證次國家環境部部長經濟部的副次長環境部的本部長 委員好 大家好今天的主委會長到現在大家都說最佳預算在日本來賓"},{"start":12775.157,"end":12801.067,"text":"這份禮品大家應該是都會回去看之前的三年後對等的辦公室所以今天給大家等了等了萬一萬一就要接受這個四分鐘在這次你看我們嘉義市的八江街跟寶庭你看一下八江街長久以來"},{"start":12803.632,"end":12825.796,"text":"都是一個 我跟蔡議員常常拜託我們水利署要去修正讓他能夠從台前來他的水路 他的事還可以去應用到的車流的環境 加速水災他不夠在這個過程當中你看到這種會怕到嗎"},{"start":12830.578,"end":12854.163,"text":"這張是在八千多一屆七月二月做訪台的時候再一次給大家看到八千多長久以來是國家時代的野賣場的本事在那長久以來你們兩個單位跟電影都說要協助"},{"start":12858.764,"end":12877.052,"text":"尤其在91年 水利署已經來管理也不夠在這個管理當中都沒有看到要怎麼去改變這個百姓區長久以來這個掩埋場在87年就崩潰 已經沒用了"},{"start":12887.196,"end":12911.813,"text":"所以在這個風台上對我們南部 嘉義 台南 應用很大因為在這個規定當中風台的水災和看車我們不僅可以這個掩埋場最緊要4公頃因為都沒有看到要怎麼改善在這個規定當中"},{"start":12917.276,"end":12934.18,"text":"你們知道嗎 如果未來還有風災呢這要怎麼處理 還要維修百姓的健康這這樣漏一漏 會不會影響到河流的百姓的健康安全沒錯 在這裡面 在我剛才跟你說到現在這是非常重要"},{"start":12944.844,"end":12961.376,"text":"因為裡面你也有編一個水利署最緊背的文要去改善他不再在這個改善當中你敢不敢如何 要怎麼去做來 請回答一下"},{"start":12963.206,"end":12973.791,"text":"保護委員 委員提出的建議我們也跟水利署協調過上游的部分環境部會來清除下游的部分水利署會來清除所以委員的問題我們會在這次趁著這次風災我們徹底來解決這個問題謝謝委員"},{"start":12977.321,"end":12994.576,"text":"好 保庭 你說這樣已經有答案了是 嚴格本省 要求的就是說你的清除要多久 有什麼機會 有中長期嗎是不是可以一星期來 讓本省了解 你們要如何去做"},{"start":12997.478,"end":13003.28,"text":"好 沒問題 謝謝委員 沒問題因為我覺得這不是本席說的你長久以來就要關心這個好不好因為這個要關心的我們一定要保持健康和安全所以要關心去處理 關心去做 以上好 謝謝王美惠委員下一位請張雅玲委員請"},{"start":13029.465,"end":13039.689,"text":"好 我請交通部 運安會主委 教育部體育署運安會主委 教育部 鄭部長體育署"},{"start":13047.765,"end":13068.958,"text":"我們先交通部部長好今天我想跟部長討論一下有關於夏天的水域安全的一個問題就是說這幾年來我們也可以看到越來越多的人不管是玩自由潛水 水肺潛水潛水活動非常的盛行再加上接下來的運動部他也會去推廣這個水域安全可是我收到了民間團體的陳情我發現"},{"start":13071.9,"end":13086.53,"text":"我们现在在这三个月以内就已经有两起的人船碰撞有一死两重伤的一个问题那这个问题是怎么发生的是有潜水客被螺旋桨撞击"},{"start":13087.711,"end":13103.352,"text":"那這不是一個單一的個案這是一個系統性的安全性的一個漏洞我想部長一定非常清楚什麼是風險 什麼是危險玩潛水活動本身有一些風險存在沒有錯但是他們現在是被螺旋槳撞擊這就是危險的問題"},{"start":13105.694,"end":13128.581,"text":"民間開始呼籲要訂立人船必碰規則我知道我們現在在1977年是有相關的一些海上必碰規則國際公約但是公約處理的就是船跟船 人對人沒有處理人對船 人船之間的問題觀光署去年其實也有修訂了水域休憩活動管理辦法要求要配置潛水旗幟"},{"start":13129.421,"end":13154.341,"text":"可是我想不管你再怎麼清楚的識別只要船隻沒有減速人員還是會受傷就像是我們畫的人行道一樣你畫了這些白馬線你只有去勸導 只有去宣導也沒有一些相對的規定那坦白說我們還是很難去避免這樣子的一個問題那現在美國 澳洲 紐西蘭 日本"},{"start":13155.422,"end":13181.629,"text":"這些國家都有這個船舶接近潛水旗幟的時候要保持50到100公尺的距離並且降低船速夏威夷甚至有慢速無浪原則那我想問我們現在到底要怎麼辦呢因為航管局說這個船他只管商船漁業署說他只管漁船那那個觀光署說我就管這個潛水區域活動還是沒有人來處理這個部分我們總不可能再等到下一個人民出現的時候才來處理吧我想聽聽看部長您的態度是什麼"},{"start":13182.029,"end":13205.59,"text":"報告委員確實這個議題轄管的單位相當多包含交通部包含農業部也都有還有地方政府也有光交通部裡面觀光署也有然後航港局也有確實這個議題我們必須要去面對因為已經發生事件了我們在船員法裡面對於駕駛船舶如何避免碰撞這個部分我們有明確的規範這個是針對商船跟航港局所管理"},{"start":13207.471,"end":13232.468,"text":"對 那這個部分我們也會提供給漁業署對於這個規範的部分提供給他們這個部分我們都會提供這個沒有問題但是後續我覺得應該大家要來討論一下就是說是不是民團這邊也可以協助一下我們針對有在潛水的熱區我們除了航港局要掌握之外漁業署那邊也要掌握也要對漁船做宣導讓他們先知道說我們的熱區大概在哪些地方部長 因為時間有限我想我是不是可以要求就是說"},{"start":13233.929,"end":13257.699,"text":"交通部是不是可以來折騰來協調好不好來協調各縣市政府我們是不是可以提出一份草案那我們這邊也請民間團體一起來協助我們來提出一個草案然後來試試看像小琉球縣已經有劃定樂區了是不是可以有些範圍先試行看看是不是可以這樣子三個月內好不好我們來協調三個月好謝謝那運安會主委抱歉因為時間很有限抱歉我先對不起運安會主委下一個好了我先叫體育署"},{"start":13258.619,"end":13282.835,"text":"體育署 抱歉 因為時間很有限體育署 我想確定一下因為我之前一直在要求有關於狼師 狼教練應該要公告8月15號你們開會 那決議是什麼我可能會後再更為現在直接告訴我好不好 決議是什麼因為我沒有參與決議是不是會公告 會不會公告應該還在討論當中吧不對吧 應該有修正吧你們應該是有提議要修正吧是不是會修正31條"},{"start":13284.759,"end":13299.809,"text":"跟委員報告因為我沒有參與我最近剛好去試運會好沒關係那你沒有參與那就算了那抱歉那運安會運安會我很快再15秒就好15秒時間到了好不好時間到了不要再贏了謝謝謝謝張委員的諮詢下一位請羅志強委員諮詢請主席有請主計長陳主計長請"},{"start":13322.625,"end":13343.459,"text":"委員好主委長好追加預算是非常態的做法有合理 必要 急迫性當然可以增加換句話說不合理 非必要 非急迫就不該隨意增加我想請教這次追加預算的媒體宣傳費用總共是多少錢四點多億"},{"start":13345.878,"end":13373.32,"text":"原預算是7.24億追加4.29億所以追加將近六成的宣傳經費我再想請教一下根據立法院預算中心的資料追加沒宣預算如果扣除中選會總共有多少個機關追加沒宣預算90個你知道多少機關迴遍率是百分之百"},{"start":13374.741,"end":13397.576,"text":"百分之百你知道嗎都不知道19個來超過1000萬的14個那我再請教你追加通過的話114年度中央政府沒宣預算比113年增加多少錢如果追加通過增加多少錢也不知道2.51億增加27.85%"},{"start":13403.427,"end":13427.117,"text":"我要跟主席長說宣傳包裝美化賴清德總統好重要好急迫好必要要拿追加預算 急急如律令來去包裝賴清德總統民調現在下滑趕快追加預算補宣傳"},{"start":13428.953,"end":13455.541,"text":"要嘛給綠媒 要嘛給綠友友要嘛給網軍 好好包裝很急呀 我看你們真的好急喔沒宣費超級的 有急迫性沒有關係這麼愛宣傳的政府我也無所謂啦我想請教你下一個更嚴肅的問題請問立法院是不是通過警消人士條例提高我們警消的所得替代率 退休保障 是不是"},{"start":13456.443,"end":13483.302,"text":"是有沒有提高軍人的加薪 有沒有 是不是有請問妳 為什麼妳總預算不編這個部分呢像那個軍人的部分我們追加裡面才加薪我講的是我們軍人的待遇提高兩三萬的那個我們立法院的提案妳為什麼不編因為他也在申請釋憲當中胡說八道"},{"start":13485.999,"end":13513.552,"text":"釋憲申請並不妨礙法律效力除非你今天大法官做出緊急處分凍結法律你當大家都是法律白癡嗎法律公佈就要執行釋憲結果出來以後那才會否決法律的效力整個政府都被違法亂證那我跟你講今天我要在這邊為什麼那麼生氣踐踏警消踐踏軍人"},{"start":13515.186,"end":13541.46,"text":"過去這一年 羅志強 我們國民黨立法院黨團一路的來關注我們景蕭的退休的生活保障關注我們軍人保家衛國該有的待遇的提升都通過法律了主席 妳知道妳的命是誰在保護嗎遇到治安事件 火災妳的命是誰在保護嗎 妳知道嗎就是景蕭在保護啊"},{"start":13545.803,"end":13568.957,"text":"國家如果為難誰保護你的命啊有外敵侵犯誰保護啊就是軍人啊所以除了你這個政府踐踏軍人 踐踏警消就只在今天爭取賴清德的包裝化妝費你們還真關心我們的警消跟軍人啊謝謝好 謝謝羅委員的諮詢 謝謝下一位請陳俊宇委員諮詢 請"},{"start":13587.196,"end":13593.164,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們先請環境部彭部長環境部的彭部長還有經濟部次長經濟部的黃次長何次長何次長 對不起"},{"start":13602.004,"end":13630.657,"text":"部長 次長午安我想請教一下我們這個能源永續的發展是政府的一個施政的一個重點那近期在宜蘭傳出這個陸域風電要在宜蘭開發的計畫那從計畫的開發基地來看是從這個宜蘭縣的武傑鄉到蘇澳沿海大概是7公里的一個範圍那要設置14部的一個風機消息一出之後那地方"},{"start":13631.658,"end":13646.5,"text":"所有的民眾還有一些民代都已經這個強烈的反彈那對於這項的開發計畫可能會造成的生態影響還有這個景觀的破壞都非常高度的讓民眾存疑尤其在開發基地位處"},{"start":13647.481,"end":13658.81,"text":"全國兩大水鳥保護區還有三大國家級的重要濕地都有非常豐富的珍貴生態資源那又是因為開發行為採取陸域開發的風電恐怕會"},{"start":13664.882,"end":13680.353,"text":"造成低頻的這個噪音還有震動以及這個眩影等等對於宜蘭鄉親的一個日常生活會有直接一個不良的影響那基於這個環境保護還有生態的一個保育以及鄉親權益的原則"},{"start":13681.494,"end":13702.562,"text":"本席在這個7月15號也發文給各單位要求相關單位必須充分的徵詢地方意見預防開發行為對環境所造成的一個負面影響那我在此我想先請教我們彭部長曾經在這個台東風電的這個案子過程當中您曾經表達過"},{"start":13704.062,"end":13716.857,"text":"不鼓勵也不支持那對於業者在宜蘭沿岸將開發陸域風電的這個規劃您是否也抱持著相同的一個立場那環境部如何替宜蘭鄉親來嚴格把關"},{"start":13719.019,"end":13742.554,"text":"好 謝謝委員 這個態度我也是一樣因為這個距離民眾的住宅還有特別珍貴的海岸線是非常敏感的所以我一樣是不鼓勵也不支持業者他有想要開發的權利但是環境部有環評審查的把關的一個機制那也跟委員報告因為近期有幾個也是類似的案子都被環境部整個都退回而且要求不予開發"},{"start":13744.278,"end":13767.751,"text":"好 那市長您對於這個開發案那經濟部的立場是怎麼樣如果說在地方沒有共識之前我們經濟部是不是可以不同意他們來推動跟我們報告 這個只要地方不支持我們經濟部也不會支持好 那部長 市長您先請回我接續請我們交通部 我們陳部長"},{"start":13777.625,"end":13805.587,"text":"部長午安 委員好我接續想請教部長一個問題就是這個鐵路高架的部分從去年6月環評通過之後那期間因為這個南陽溪橋必須要墊高的因素中規的這個期程有所延後那在今年4月份也曾經質詢過我們陳部長希望督促本案能夠盡速在上半年能夠核定也讓後續的這個補助款一併核定那縣府預算"},{"start":13807.608,"end":13832.144,"text":"編列能夠順利進行的話這個工程才能夠繼續推進那在這個綜合規劃報告似乎在這期間有被退回的問題時至今日還沒有新的進度那我想請教部長就是這個宜蘭的鐵路高架它的中規是否遭遇到什麼樣的困難那是否可以加速推動"},{"start":13833.284,"end":13847.677,"text":"確保這個工程能夠如期在明年順利來動工好 報告委員這個案子目前在交通部正在審議當中那我們會加速來審議那也會爭取在年底之前得到行政院的核定這個部分我們來努力加速好"},{"start":13848.117,"end":13861.221,"text":"那也請部長就針對這個部分能夠掌握其成好看能不能跟我們這個高鐵延伸的部分能夠這個整個工程能夠並進來前進好 謝謝謝謝陳委員的諮詢下一位請陳培宇委員諮詢好 謝謝主席那有請教育部 謝謝教育部的陳部長"},{"start":13889.974,"end":13892.568,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13895.785,"end":13921.364,"text":"好部長辛苦了中午都還沒休息我們快速討論一下是關於這個運動部即將升格但是應該有一些業務跟之前的體育署有關那我想我這邊還是要拜託部長持續幫我們看相關的進度喔在昨天晚上劉伯鈞還有石明錦這兩位非常重要的運動界的朋友發了一個聲明我不確定部長你有沒有看到就是關於在幾次的體育諮詢會議當中他們提出非常非常多"},{"start":13922.544,"end":13947.515,"text":"實質的改革跟建議可是他們好像在後來的公開運動部的報告裡面沒有看到讓他們覺得有被採用那當然這個意見不是只有他們兩個的意見有非常多體育界的朋友都覺得非常非常的擔心那我知道運動部這中間的深隔的事情有非常多其實還是留在教育部裡面討論所以我想這邊還是要拜託部長持續協助尤其是新任的部長李洋部長"},{"start":13948.115,"end":13965.605,"text":"他有一個在相關會議當中他也曾經是諮詢委員之一他提到所謂體育班的轉型這件事情我想跟部長您再次確認我每次都問你體育班的事情在未來9月9號運動部掛牌之後到底體育班的業務現在是留在教育部還是留在運動部"},{"start":13967.376,"end":13990.043,"text":"體育班的這個申請所有相關事在運動部來管理但是體育班的教學當然還是在學校裡面進行所以他的一些升學所有的一些權益是這個運動部但是所有體育班的學生的學習跟輔導還是在"},{"start":13990.924,"end":13993.592,"text":"還是在教育部裡面來督導來管理"},{"start":13999.265,"end":14020.995,"text":"我時間有限不過我覺得聽起來有點怪怪的包含學生的升學綁著運動比賽成績而我們之前在講運動比賽成績過於注重其實就導致於學生變成所謂的奪牌工具人而不是一個運動員所以連李洋部長自己都先說了他要先是一個學生才可以是運動員所以我要拜託部長在未來"},{"start":14022.817,"end":14038.869,"text":"這個事實上是我們在因應這個運動部以後大家共同努力的目標我們希望我們運動選手應該他的學科他的基本的洗脫能力不應該被遺忘然後被放棄應該要有一個更全面的一個全人的一個發展"},{"start":14039.269,"end":14060.814,"text":"好 沒關係因為即將成立的運動部一定有非常多細緻的業務分工要跟教育部還有國教署這邊接軌那後續我們辦公室也會持續追蹤如何確保學生身為一個學生的學科能力不要被犧牲又不要影響他想要發展運動天賦的這一條路所以運動部跟教育部未來如何"},{"start":14061.854,"end":14076.585,"text":"雙向接軌協助接住所有的運動員VS學生這樣好不好拜託部長所以我不知道部長有沒有機會未來積極的跟運動部展開跨部會跨部會的會議我想我們分工結隊是要合作的這個部分我們一定會"},{"start":14078.406,"end":14094.743,"text":"會隨時保持這邊我希望部長您敬訴跟李楊部長可以碰面討論體育班轉型的問題在您過往的國教經驗跟您對於教育有愛的熱情的前提之下幫忙運動部把體育班轉型做好要拜託部長了"},{"start":14096.164,"end":14116.553,"text":"那接下來要拜託部長我們在去年的3月份2024年的3月份在教育文化委員會我們有一個臨時提案當時已經很多委員都有簽署了我們希望體育署協助處理逐協對於民間友人民間人士的欠款相關整理資料可是到目前為止從去年"},{"start":14117.233,"end":14131.881,"text":"三月到現在已經一年半我們辦公室都還是沒有收到不知道是因為體育署監督足協出現了困難還是足協決定適時抵抗體育署的監督這個部分可不可以拜託部長再幫我們追蹤進度"},{"start":14133.209,"end":14147.159,"text":"可以 我接委員提醒我知道這一個年監察院都有糾正對 好 拜託部長接下來部長這個獨家新聞快速跟您說時間到了 我們就請那個好不好謝謝好 謝謝這個實驗的執行拜託 拜託部長陳靄平委員執行 請會後我再跟委員請教謝謝請"},{"start":14161.857,"end":14179.183,"text":"你好 我們請總統府跟國安會國安會副秘書長好兩位副秘書長好副秘書長 我很重視我們的這個總統府的安全查核"},{"start":14180.256,"end":14198.151,"text":"那國安事務的人事的這個背景的調查我很關注那所以我在立法院有提出國家精密保護法第14條修正案是希望透過完整強化跨部會的安全審查機制來確保敏感的這些政務人員或者是這些事務人員都能夠通過這樣的審核"},{"start":14200.441,"end":14219.158,"text":"那也是要確保說過去像國安會高層吳釗燮幕僚成為共鐵的狀況不再出現所以這是我們要做的事情那我注意到這一次總統府的這次追加預算在國安會的人員維持費項目裡面有增加200萬元大概是過去是1億7328萬"},{"start":14221.707,"end":14244.946,"text":"所以这里面有包含办理机关业务所需要的约聘人员的待遇这边我要请教的是副秘书长 官会的副秘书长这个约聘的约顾人员是不是同样纳入安全查核的机制是不是有跟去年12月最新的各机关去办理特殊查核职务一栏表里面的也是在这个范围里面吗"},{"start":14245.606,"end":14272.368,"text":"然後查核範圍的嚴謹程度是否跟正式職員相同還是有存在一些差別待遇那最後就是說國防部他的查核的一個辦法裡面受查核人除了經表查核書面說明面紡甚至還會實施科學移測也就是可能就實施這個測謊儀來協助我想請問未來總統府對於安全審查有怎麼樣的做法"},{"start":14274.853,"end":14293.211,"text":"國安會首先跟委員報告國安會現在所有揭秘的人員都要接受安全查核至於剛才委員提到的所謂的科學移測按照目前的法定規定應該是法定的情報機關它有接受移測的義務對 那我是說"},{"start":14297.017,"end":14319.596,"text":"最近我看包含總統府 國安會 憲兵二一 引東連續發生的共諜案我們有沒有針對這些人士這些未來的約聘人員有加強審核的方法謝謝委員的專業跟委員報告一下關於移策的部分過去是每年一次在委員專業的建議之後呢半年一次那現在總統府"},{"start":14322.198,"end":14338.807,"text":"獵館的人員也持續的在增加包含他的出境作業都依照委員過去的槌尋跟建議分層分類頻率都增加那特殊茶盒的部分呢也增加了三倍以上跟委員報告謝謝副秘書長謝謝那也希望副秘書長"},{"start":14340.948,"end":14352.007,"text":"共同來重視這個議題那特別是我已經提過很多次了這個國安高層旁邊那有這樣子的共諜的這個案件那必須要未來要"},{"start":14353.018,"end":14371.534,"text":"防止這一次的事情再次發生那這個相關的查核方式我們其實有跟廉政署還有跟各個不同的政風單位討論過那所以未來要怎麼樣來去共同來創造出一個新的審查機制我想這個是我希望總統府也要依照你們的用人的方便性跟"},{"start":14371.894,"end":14391.725,"text":"安全性都要綜合考量感謝委員委員過去在質詢的部分有分三類對象 頻率 項目我們都會持續精進謝謝委員甚至包含機關首長可能都要有 現在我們五長部分包含所有的作業人員只要進出辦公室的"},{"start":14392.225,"end":14415.909,"text":"全部都要做安全查核以及約聘僱的部分全部都有還有廠商如果待比較久的都會去做謝謝副秘書長那副秘書長我最後再提一件事情就是說如果未來還有發生類似的共諜事件直屬的主官或主管可不可以有一些連帶的行政責任我們做出相關的這個成長機制可不可以"},{"start":14416.82,"end":14426.982,"text":"呃這個部分待會去研議但是這些不想發生就是好謝謝副秘書長好謝謝謝謝陳委員的質詢下一位請黃建豪委員質詢請好謝謝主席主席我們請這主計長陳淑芝主計長跟總統府代表主計長總統府的副秘書長還有"},{"start":14448.806,"end":14471.344,"text":"委員好副委員好 主席長好主席長一開始你看我們預算法第79條我想大家很多委員提到說是要因為有重大事故經費超過法定預算的時候來編列那我看這一次的預算內容其實追加預算內容很多都非常的簡略都沒有進行實質的說明所以主席長你認為這一次的追加預算是不是很多有這個狀況是時程太趕嗎還是你就這樣子讓它過去了"},{"start":14474.33,"end":14503.019,"text":"其實它是最佳預算的表格它跟總預算是有一點不同主委長 對不起 聲音太小聲是 最佳預算的表格本身就跟總預算是有一點點不同這個部分我們以後會來加強另外這個部分因為我們當初被刪減的一個項目它有指定項目它的百分比很高而且等於是說它又不可以流用所以造成在執行上整個業務是有困難的所以這個部分我才提出最佳"},{"start":14503.659,"end":14523.349,"text":"來主席講我們從這一家預算署裡面看到大家提供的說明裡面都只有提供到一級用途的這個科別目這個二級機關的稅數二級的用途科別目都沒有提供分地總表沒有提供然後還有中央政府各機關資本支出的分析總表還有各機關資本支出的分析表"},{"start":14523.989,"end":14534.166,"text":"這些在整個追加預算這本裡面也看不到我想問一下這個是符合您追求這個格式這是您追求的格式嗎還是說是漏掉還是沒有變它來不及變"},{"start":14534.957,"end":14551.691,"text":"因為以往的例子他都沒有提供二級用途別如果有委員有需要我們就會可以提供這個部分來給委員來做參考審查的一個好 主席長因為時間有限了沒關係那就請會後繼續提供再來有幾個案子剛剛前面有幾個委員提到包含說這個要問到總統府我想問一下我們總統府這邊何富密"},{"start":14555.894,"end":14568.206,"text":"到底這個換車編列了一百多萬要來幫這個我們國安會這邊換車換車是重大事故嗎還是有重大事故要換車為什麼換這個車為什麼變在追加預算裡面我請國安會來回應 謝謝委員好根據這個換車是因為那個車子的這個車齡啊已經十幾年了"},{"start":14580.182,"end":14608.474,"text":"我知道啊我是說你為什麼會放在追加預算那如果十幾年你應該理論上在本預算裡面第一個要把本預算你去年在編的時候就知道這個車十幾年要不然就等現在正在編列這個115年總預算的時候你放進來嘛你放在追加預算你就名字不符嘛預算法第79條講說要因為重大事故我看起來換車不是重大事故啊這第一件事情沒關係那第二件事情我還是要問一下我們的總統府請問一下總統的住宿"},{"start":14609.874,"end":14626.168,"text":"總統 副總統的這個專書也編列在追加預算裡面請問一下上半年跟下半年有什麼重大事故讓總統需要出一本專書來說明報告 這是屬於總統府的這個文獻館他們的預算那文獻館當然我想"},{"start":14627.189,"end":14655.035,"text":"中華民國台灣過去的歷史事件他會去做爬梳跟脈絡的整理那也跟委員報告一下我們這所謂的重大事故就以我的著見來看當時候預算的動山連總統府的維安都可能調度上面會出現一些治安難行的部分可能 那沒有發生嘛所以要差一點發生當時候也謝謝委員的支持所以要拜託委員支持我們的預算現在包含差旅費"},{"start":14656.075,"end":14677.723,"text":"我們總統府很多主管都自己墊墊這些差旅費了所以要拜託委員多多支持這個啦 我再講啦剛剛講換車啦我隨便舉例光是總統府這樣子小項目的光是換車跟駐坐這個專總統副總統專它就沒有急迫性也不是符合重大事故嘛沒有 我都接受你說總統要出書這個我沒有意見不是總統出書"},{"start":14679.924,"end":14699.115,"text":"真的不是但不應該放在追加預算還應該放在正常的預算裡面你可以再編在115年116年的這個本預算裡面報告委員這是雞蛋蛋生雞的問題我們預算被刪成這樣子一定要追加所以很抱歉請您多支持要再拜託謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的諮詢下一位請馬文君委員諮詢請"},{"start":14711.308,"end":14718.211,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請主計長還有國防部陳主計長 國防部的副部長副部長好委員好"},{"start":14730.181,"end":14744.576,"text":"主席長 副部長好這次行政院提出的追加預算案國防部的部分是63億餘元 接近64億其中軍事官兵各項勤務加擠的部分大概有53億多"},{"start":14749.02,"end":14765.38,"text":"還有其他的項目大概將近10億元那就這個部分本席在這裡要特別強調114年國防部公務預算當中攸關國軍的心想以及各項家籍的人事費用並沒有刪除任何一毛錢副部長對吧"},{"start":14766.741,"end":14770.904,"text":"然後114年國防部的調整第一項預備金總額也達到28億元這個也是一毛都沒刪而且只有增加對不對那在大罷免期間還是有側翼跟媒體惡意的攻擊說在野黨亂煽動預算這裡我們要特別的澄清尤其薪水如果是給官兵我們都非常的支持"},{"start":14791.198,"end":14807.465,"text":"不過這一次的追加預算感覺上有點像趁火打劫為什麼我想要請教主席主席長剛剛您是不是有回答委員說我們這一次追加提這個追加預算是8月4號要求各單位提出的"},{"start":14808.585,"end":14830.283,"text":"8月4號對不對我們事實上很早就在做準備很早是多少很早是多少我們在六七月的時候就開始在一月的時候就在準備六七月六七月就在準備好那我們現在看到你即使六七月就在準備可是那時候要求各單位提出來的時候"},{"start":14831.524,"end":14857.365,"text":"這個可以看得出來我們在去年沒有編列預算的情況之下總統分別在今年的4月7月公佈要各項加急國防部有沒有估算大概需要多少錢就針對那個總統公佈的部分戰鬥加急也好戰鬥部隊加急也好志願役加急這個需要多少錢而且國防部本來預劃這些錢要從哪裡來有沒有一個方向"},{"start":14862.403,"end":14869.298,"text":"誰來打報委員我們今年在預劃的時候這加急的部分我們預估是97億97億 是現在勒"},{"start":14875.097,"end":14901.108,"text":"我們是把這個人為分和第二預備金都把它列記進去那時候我們預劃的來源就是人事費用跟那個預備金嘛對不對過去的往例也都是這樣那今天如果沒有追加這個預算其實就會用這些調整的調解的預算來支付嘛所以你現在又用追加預算要把它補上來這樣子的目的"},{"start":14902.188,"end":14928.35,"text":"那你其他原來的預備金跟那些人事費用的那些經費你們要怎麼打算怎麼如何運用我想預備金基本上來講我們在用途別尋往力都是如此但是今年的天災特別多那我們也會把這些預算有一部分的寬固在現在已經九月了你如果說提到天災因為天災的發生每年都"},{"start":14929.051,"end":14944.17,"text":"所以你如果還沒有發生的時候你本來要用在這裡那你現在突然全部通用預備金其實這個已經有點說不過去因為你當時已經規劃出來了這有點像趁火打劫我剛剛講的所以在這裡我們"},{"start":14945.191,"end":14960.683,"text":"要特別強調的我們還是希望薪水都應該要好好的給我們的軍事官兵可是我要在這裡要特別問到的是我們沒有預算都可以調節或追加預算那我們已經三讀通過總統也已經公佈軍人加薪三萬為什麼不編怎麼可以不編"},{"start":14968.486,"end":14978.917,"text":"我想我們部長早上也講得非常清楚因為這個我們是行政團的議員就司法性來講現在已經提出釋憲司法性你已經三讀而且總統已經公佈如果依法你是應該要編的"},{"start":14984.463,"end":15001.629,"text":"如果你都已經先設想說我們市縣是會失敗的市縣的結果你們都已經先想到的意思嗎那大法官是可以這樣控制的嗎所以就這個部分我們還是希望這個部分"},{"start":15002.669,"end":15006.792,"text":"國防部要審慎的考量你必須 你雖然是行政團隊的一部分可是必須為所有軍事官兵據理力爭尤其是已經立法通過的主計長也在後面希望你們這個部分要好好的想清楚而且必須要做明確的交代 謝謝好 謝謝馬委員的諮詢下一位 林建啟林建啟 林建啟委員不在"},{"start":15028.434,"end":15033.661,"text":"魯明哲 魯明哲 魯明哲委員不在吳思堯委員請謝謝主席 有請行政院秘書長行政院的"},{"start":15046.551,"end":15051.997,"text":"還有李遠他是部長 他現在經濟部長現在是行政院秘書長沒關係 兩個身分都剛好要問他還有李遠部長李部長 來"},{"start":15060.994,"end":15087.047,"text":"大家辛苦了我們今天在進行的追加預算就是要為總預算之亂史上審查最混亂刪減最高凍結最嚴格的這個總預算之亂要撥亂反正我只是非常遺憾剛剛還有在野黨的委員說追加預算的提出是在趁火打劫我的天哪誰為國家的總預算放了這把火"},{"start":15088.087,"end":15109.923,"text":"是在野黨的委員放了這把火行政部門在救火現在還有在野的委員說我們提追加預算是趁火打劫更不要說追加預算是韓國瑜院長也提出來的建議希望讓國家的施政恢復正軌預算能夠撥亂反正下一頁"},{"start":15110.919,"end":15138.897,"text":"秘書長您現在是以秘書長身份正來著未來可能就是用經濟部長的身份但是跟您也相關我的呼籲讓市政回歸正軌就支持追加預算不只是特定項目被二砍二刪要補回來對於地方政府的一般性補助款跟各部會的所需預算都要一視同仁而不是差別對待下一頁"},{"start":15139.878,"end":15160.175,"text":"但是很遺憾在野黨的委員沒有合理的審查還在報復性的刪減總統府監察院還是要被全刪還有八個部會的預算要被再砍當中我很重視的是媒體宣傳費4.29億要被二砍了下一頁"},{"start":15163.942,"end":15178.702,"text":"沒宣費有多重要打擊假消息譬如說風災重建 災民需要正確的訊息都需要媒體宣傳費對不對在下頁譬如說防制詐騙打詐"},{"start":15180.544,"end":15189.672,"text":"沒錢怎麼宣導除了這筆4.2億的沒宣費要被在野黨再砍之外連內政部警政署的詐騙宣導的費用4025萬也要被砍再下一頁"},{"start":15197.598,"end":15213.797,"text":"防疫要沒宣防災要宣導沒錢怎麼搞我請秘書長很快的再次喊話這些沒宣費都是重要的證物要讓人民知道但是又再一次被惡砍你們很難承受來秘書長"},{"start":15217.928,"end":15243.437,"text":"謝委員 事實上我們新聞傳播的業務主要是要辦理國家整體的施政還有重要的政策 重大事件防災 還有緊急應變比較重大議題的這個宣導剛剛委員也提到了打炸 封災這個都要正確的支持讓所有的災民知道這樣的消息另外一個 就比如說我們現在決議如果要普發現金的話"},{"start":15244.577,"end":15250.479,"text":"那我們也需要告訴人民怎麼領然後甚至於在這種情況下可能會有詐騙集團不要受騙那我想這個都需要媒體宣傳好 謝謝祕書長請在野黨的委員不要成為詐騙集團的幫兇喔我們需要沒宣費來打擊假消息有請黎原部長 祕書長請回"},{"start":15267.765,"end":15287.577,"text":"就因為沒了沒宣費我們前進大阪市博下一頁的計畫在下一頁只能用民間來募資部長文化人何其辛苦啊被政治追殺還要募資集資去做文化外交您來反映一下這個辛苦吧"},{"start":15288.39,"end":15304.59,"text":"好 其實這一次我們去大阪試博因為沒有沒宣費之後民間主動在網路上募款大概兩三天就募到了六百億那他的募款過程我完全不知道我看了一下也覺得嚇一跳就是像這種事情文化人"},{"start":15305.311,"end":15311.937,"text":"會非常同情我們那台灣的文化好 謝謝喔這個可以了 這個私底下報告所以說 對不起好 馬上 下一個階段也有700萬的錄款第二階段請部長再幫民間民進加以法令好 主席啊"},{"start":15321.445,"end":15335.43,"text":"878億每個值也4分鐘你們要砍也要勇敢站在這裡告訴大家要砍的有道理而不是在這裡不敢讓大家回答不敢讓部會來辯護就是為砍而砍我再次抗議主席這種處理喔 謝謝我在幫你們好不好我在幫你們開快車你怎麼會這樣講呢"},{"start":15343.479,"end":15349.633,"text":"你說的內容我都沒有comment喔要處理 等一下處理再來講好不好下一位請蔡益瑜委員質詢"},{"start":15364.417,"end":15377.865,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉那我們是不是請考試院副秘書長考試院副秘書長 請人事總處人事長 蘇龍人事長 請跟教育部教育部政部長委員午安好"},{"start":15396.793,"end":15413.405,"text":"我們今天在處理最佳預算在處理要把被刪除的預算來適度的來做一些補回然後讓機關可以運作這件事事實上在場的所有的部門都有一樣的需求"},{"start":15414.085,"end":15435.355,"text":"但是我看起來 大概在野黨不打算這一筆給你們過所以你們要通過這一筆預算難度非常高所以我在這裡我直接想要跟你們講另外一個層次的問題就是說 事實上你們知不知道現在基層很多的預算就算有錢 沒有人可以執行這你們清楚沒有那去討盤就沒問題了人事長"},{"start":15441.039,"end":15463.357,"text":"你說欠缸 欠缸去補分還是怎樣服務在政府機關的部...你直接說一下我的答案啦我還沒有秀出這一頁你就看到了嘛因為我有看到你眼睛裡面的那一種期待我發現 厲害那這個考試院呢"},{"start":15467.166,"end":15495.523,"text":"土木的一個缺工這個因為有教考任用整個四個環節那在我們考試的部分我們最近也開始要做一個看怎麼樣子能夠改善的部分我跟你們講啦現在整個基層因為這個土木類的一個人才公務員就已經不足了你看我們工程類的缺額從112年缺1400到現在已經都缺到了2000人那每年報考的人數一直減少"},{"start":15497.365,"end":15520.423,"text":"這個問題我覺得考試院跟人事總署你們要正視不然我們所有的機關你送給他錢他沒辦法去執行因為他的工程人才不夠我跟你們講我這一次在嘉義我在處理南境大排他整個未來工程的時候主要在頂端要農水署 農水署說我們欠人會打第五河川署 第五河川署說他也沒人"},{"start":15521.684,"end":15526.826,"text":"都有一個大改觀政府改觀政府說我們這是非六都的機關我們這個建設處的人員更少水上港公所說我們那個公所建設區的也沒人哇 全部沒人所以你知道後來我怎樣嗎我就去找國軍"},{"start":15540.311,"end":15547.839,"text":"因為整個南京大牌中間有一段有一段是空軍第四聯隊我就拜託空軍說不然你來幫我們處理發包就好設計一樣給這個專業單位設計發包的執行能不能請國軍來協助國軍抓到我說不要啦 我們這裡阿兵哥現在就沒有大專兵"},{"start":15560.412,"end":15587.349,"text":"現在這個阿兵哥對於這個工程類事實上專業可能不太夠所以他們也是沒辦法來協助這一條水利大牌的發包這個我處理起來我覺得好無奈所以我還是覺得整個工程界沒辦法把人才留在我們的公務機關全部跑到民間第一個薪資的問題在野黨唯一不敢砍的就是公務員的薪資"},{"start":15588.7,"end":15599.763,"text":"他們不會砍所以你們應該好好的去調整我們整個薪資的一個處理讓這些人才可以留在我們的公務機關這樣我們有餘生我們可以發佈處理第二要怎樣讓這些人才可以進入公務機關這個要請教育部了因為我們知道"},{"start":15608.226,"end":15612.112,"text":"我們這裡二類組的優秀的都跑去電機都跑去機械要來淘寶的比較少所以現在有好多大學都把土木系都關掉了所以我認為教育部你應該協助現在有土木系的大學"},{"start":15624.71,"end":15631.254,"text":"要多去開一些公費生那這些公費生咧未來讓他可以留在機關一流的人在我們這裡所有單位的機關靠我就替我們國家做事情不然你知道潮汐那幾個公務人員他們也沒辦法你們這裡的工庫發包處理每包都在那裡照鏢就花很多的時間沒有效率了啦好不好這塊我們再檢討一下讓這一些工程類的這個機關可以順利運唱這個是很重要的"},{"start":15655.371,"end":15659.073,"text":"謝謝蔡委員的質詢 謝謝下一位請劉徐廷委員質詢謝謝主席 主計長有請來 陳主計長委員好"},{"start":15680.393,"end":15699.119,"text":"主席長午安你們負責把控整個政府的支出嘛對不對主計管出財政管入嘛對不對那麼這次追加預算案你們有沒有做過通盤的整理跟檢視啊我們有整理還是有整理有檢視你們覺得這邊的額度跟各項目都是合理的嗎"},{"start":15700.58,"end":15717.286,"text":"其實主要項目這裡面就是說第一個就是那個我們那個國防部加薪調薪的部分嘛那再來就是原民會他依照應該核給的一個加薪該三萬塊沒有編那個大家都已經講過了"},{"start":15718.226,"end":15739.016,"text":"不是 這個是我們在114年針對國防部害海洋行為的我今天不是要問你這個啦我說你這次追加預算有這麼多好幾百億對不對除了最大宗的一般補助款之外其實各項目基本上在黨看了一下就發現你等於是把上一次立法院在審查預算全部加回來就叫做追加預算可是你有沒有仔細的去做把關啊"},{"start":15740.106,"end":15754.561,"text":"原來是那個三減的部分定額三減的部分那是403億那我們現在恢復是133億那主要是因為它裡面它有一個禁止流用我只問你一個事嘛就是說你有沒有針對各個項目先做大體上的把關"},{"start":15755.981,"end":15769.186,"text":"我們原則上是因為他執行困難我們才辦理追加執行困難還辦追加 講得真好 來我舉幾個例子啦原民會為了因應族群委員改成屋脊子說要增列18名公務員所以編了追加預算人事費508萬2000元先不說這500多萬元"},{"start":15773.248,"end":15788.834,"text":"只夠給九個名額的預算我們後來溝通的時候發現你的法制作業都還沒完成啊也就是說不管你要加九個人還是加十八個人今年年底前都不可能完成法制作業那你當然就不可能用掉任何一毛錢嘛那為什麼可以提追加呢好 這一個"},{"start":15789.614,"end":15810.66,"text":"另外一個同樣是園民會南島民族論壇六年計畫追加預算一千九百七十六萬九千元可是本年度也沒有剩幾個月了嘛對不對按照年度然後我們還剩下仔細的跟他討論一下我們到底能夠完成多少計畫結案前可以花多少錢算出來大概需要兩百七十四萬跟你追加的總額是一千九百七十六萬"},{"start":15811.44,"end":15836.173,"text":"警政署編列打炸媒宣費4000萬元這前面講打炸影片我們在委員會的時候討論過因為有凍結要先看影片的品質所以你在媒體脫波投放你沒有辦法用那麼多的錢所以刪減了這個4000萬元然後你現在又把4000萬追加回來追加回來警政署也講我根本不可能在這麼短的時間內把這個預算重新招標執行完畢反此種種都表示你這個預算的編列"},{"start":15837.774,"end":15852.606,"text":"跟你真實的需求跟未來的執行率都會造成更大的困擾那主計處你真的有把關嗎組長我再給你一個機會回答一次你們真的有針對這些部會提上來的這些各項追加預算的項目做過整理跟把控嗎有嗎"},{"start":15853.286,"end":15880.135,"text":"我們也是要請各單位他針對他實際的需求來提出來所以這個部分我們也是一再的跟單位講就是說請他要本說能夠執行完畢為主的一個時間比較緊張沒有那麼多時間可以一一細究但是一直媒體也好或者是大家在傳也好有上面的長官要交代就是把之前刪掉的預算全部加回來就叫追加有這件事嗎 主席長不是那為什麼編出這樣的預算呢"},{"start":15881.835,"end":15905.545,"text":"我們被刪了四百多億的這個錢除了636之外那四百多億我們採體一百三十幾億啊沒關係啦 每個案子啊自己有困難的部分採體啊我剛剛跟你講的三個例子顯然都沒有困難而且會造成你執行率你萬一真的給他追加給他照案通過你反而會造成接下來執行率的困難本席把話講在前頭追加預算是真的有需要才追加才符合精神嘛"},{"start":15905.865,"end":15931.503,"text":"如果只是把之前刪掉的數量要討一口氣所以把它追加回來你不考慮時間不考慮執行率不考慮必要性不但沒辦法好好運用公帑還會讓行政立法之間的猜忌更加嚴重無助緩和草原的緊張關係各案我們待會審查的時候再來嚴格把關但我希望主計處做好初步把關的責任不要編出這麼奇奇怪怪的預算可以嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":15933.184,"end":15941.753,"text":"劉委員的諮詢下一位林黛樺林黛樺林黛樺委員不在郭育群委員請諮詢有請教育部跟文化部文化部可以稍後教育部的鄭部長文化部的李部長stand by"},{"start":15968.988,"end":15991.615,"text":"委員好部長早安 辛苦了我想這個少子化的衝擊其實已經不是未來會發生而是正在發生當中我們一直強調這個即時教育有多麼的重要我們也希望能夠投入更多的資源來即時教育的培養讓很多的學生能夠在畢業之後他也許可以跟產學合作可以直接進入到相關的一些產業"},{"start":15992.415,"end":16008.252,"text":"但是事實上殘酷的事實是目前我們看到了所有的這個即時教育即時學校的一個招生的人數持續的下滑甚至有一些學校連科系都有可能招不到學生那我想這已經凸顯到了這個少子化的一個困境"},{"start":16008.852,"end":16024.927,"text":"那目前我們知道在這個禁止教育的行政跟督導的這個項目我們編列了110.81億的一個預算那到目前為止截至目前為止我們的執行率是六成等於說我們還有四成要繼續的努力"},{"start":16025.507,"end":16044.568,"text":"那這個其實也凸顯了三個方面我提供給部長來做一些參考包含就是在經費的效益上另外在我們的招生制度是不是也應該要改變再來長期的一個規劃跟藍圖的部分那我想在經費的部分我們是不是真的有用在這個學生的學習跟他的一個學業的"},{"start":16045.989,"end":16063.983,"text":"還有就是技職的一個能力的這個部分是不是真的有在落實還是大部分我們補助的這些經費只是用在所謂的帳面的計畫沒有實際去改善整個所有的技職的技能的一個困境那第二剛剛我提到這個招生的困難的部分"},{"start":16064.443,"end":16090.764,"text":"那招生其實這個名額其實跟市場的需求目前為止看到的是嚴重的脫節當中那我們教育部有沒有可能要檢討現行的一個招生制度有沒有考慮就是部分的學校可以轉型成為所謂的專業培養他們的這些所謂的技能跟產學的合作而不是只是在一味的一個補助這個提供給你們做參考另外在這個長期的藍圖的部分"},{"start":16092.062,"end":16120.986,"text":"我想這個未來十年 技職教育的方向其實應該要持續而且我們應該是要轉型那我想這個結構上的一個轉型是不是有一個更清楚的藍圖在這邊是不是請部長時間有限 簡短回應是 我想這個有關剛才委員所提的事實上是一個很好的思考方式我們過去這個類科太多我們怎麼樣去有一些專業科目的這樣一個專科學校我想這是我們來努力"},{"start":16121.471,"end":16136.843,"text":"我想這個教育部不能只是用錢去撐住這個數字我們要求的其實是應該用制度去創造技職學生他們將來的一個出路我覺得這個應該是我們今天的重點那之後其實我們還有很多長時間可以在我們的這個院會當中來做討論接下來我請文化部文化部的李部長請"},{"start":16148.662,"end":16168.903,"text":"委員好不好意思因為今天時間真的非常趕大家都在接力我想語言已經不是只有溝通的一個工具其實更是一個文化的重點的核心我想國家語言發展法其實上路已經多年了但是到目前為止這個相關的認證制度或者是師資的一個培育教材的一個標準到目前為止其實沒有看到完整的一個落實"},{"start":16170.285,"end":16189.322,"text":"我想請文化部來回應這四點就是政策的落實上面我們是不是有這個語言認證的一個制度跟師資培育的一個具體的一個時程如果有具體的時程之後提供給我辦公室再來就是國家語言發展中心其實跟教育部跟園民會之間是不是有可能會有分工不清的一個狀況"},{"start":16190.583,"end":16205.571,"text":"如果碰到了這個分工不清或者是他們的任務上面有重疊我們怎麼樣來釐清那另外就是在人才培育的部分那目前其實語言的師資嚴重的不足那在這個部分我們怎麼克服第四點其實跟我們的預算相關"},{"start":16206.411,"end":16229.968,"text":"那321億的一個國家語言發展的一個方案在115年結束之前文化部能不能夠提供給我們一個具體的一個成果跟指標那這個我們可能事後我提供給文化部事後再提供好不好事後給我們一些書面的答覆好嗎請你部長事後再提供給郭委員好 謝謝我會事後答好好 謝謝謝謝部長好 謝謝主席現在要請蘇清泉委員質詢請"},{"start":16239.875,"end":16247.844,"text":"謝謝主席 我請邱部長還有石崇良邱部長 石崇良部長 總部長來了沒有 來了兩位部長"},{"start":16261.403,"end":16278.544,"text":"你好這個傳承啊 邱部長辛苦了謝謝辛苦好 我就因為時間很短就直接切入主題第一個救災的600億 600多億裡面有沒有醫療的"},{"start":16280.444,"end":16293.227,"text":"基層的還有衛生所受災上次在大院會質詢的時候我有提到院長也有同意那現在我沒有看到你們有編任何預算"},{"start":16293.868,"end":16318.965,"text":"好的謝謝委員的關心我們基層醫療院所包括醫院的一個受損的情況或者是他們在職業上的一個困境這個部分在第一時間我們都有去調查那災區的所有的醫療院所的受災的狀況以及他們在職業上有什麼困難都可以最大的協助那後續當然"},{"start":16320.746,"end":16330.106,"text":"在當在區所有的醫院包括醫師公會他們所提出的一些訴求我們也都有好好的研議包括在"},{"start":16333.237,"end":16345.62,"text":"合理的日 月的合理日是 或者是說在診察會的方面我們都已經就是說你如果沒辦法這件事變賣出來或是說在內部你可以用檢報那些基金來補 要補密補有啦 我們檢報那些 我們檢報都有準備基金"},{"start":16354.022,"end":16380.987,"text":"所以我們在估算過啦南區健保署的共管會議也都開過會議當然如果說我們有足夠的經費當然我們就會補得比較多如果不然的話我們本身在健保的一個預算裡面就可以來支付再來就是你這最佳預算最佳預算800多億裡面醫療我看只有十幾億嘛"},{"start":16382.512,"end":16394.845,"text":"是不是那你石崇良署長你說要答應給護理人員的我看是有變一些醫師重症的部分沒有"},{"start":16398.789,"end":16413.028,"text":"這個是因為蘇委員所問的這個是另外在健保總額裡面我們編的那這個部分我們會有編有足夠的一個經會希望能夠來提升我們第一線"},{"start":16414.4,"end":16433.969,"text":"尤其在急重症的醫療人員特別是婦理的同仁應該有的一個待遇這個部分有希望能夠在逐步的來調升提高這幾戶來提升他們的待遇還有最後就是那個韌性醫療這個特別預算5900億這裡"},{"start":16436.03,"end":16445.305,"text":"你有衛福部這邊好像有兩百一左右是 兩百一那我有提戶待決議的藥品的部分好像"},{"start":16446.348,"end":16464.596,"text":"也沒有 我感覺這裡的三個醫生我們衛生 我們醫護醫療這邊好像不被重視感覺很壞主席單位這樣是不是對的委員報告 其實在藥品的韌性方面我們本身就有編了110個計畫在進行那也針對"},{"start":16468.277,"end":16495.122,"text":"那115年度那所有相關的韌性應該做的工作譬如說我們缺藥的機制補藥的機制那在健保署方面也非常用心的還有持藥署都有用心的來不管是缺藥的一個機制的一個應應以及說如果有應應到要品因為價值成本高提升成本的話這個部分健保署這個部分也有很好的一個機制來做好一個應應的那個"},{"start":16497.482,"end":16519.375,"text":"措施 請委員放心這三個保安經理會來辦公室跟大家討論一下 好不好好 沒問題 這都很重要這維護到用藥的權益維護部還有食藥署 健保署都已經做好預算我們是非常的謝謝蘇委員的諮詢那麼請這個部長要接任的市部長跟我們蘇委員所報告"},{"start":16526.738,"end":16527.719,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請衛福部部長"},{"start":16559.51,"end":16559.674,"text":"委員好"},{"start":16560.7,"end":16590.28,"text":"好部長好最近辛苦了這邊想跟您請教一下其實在今年總預算審查的時候我就有問過衛福部說這樣子衛福部的預算被大幅的刪減之下到底會影響哪一些業務那當時其實衛福部給我的回應是包括說這個尾半費刪減了10%會導致幼兒的專責醫師的管理費短缺那影響的幼兒人數大概是2萬人然後也有跟我說其實全台480家醫院"},{"start":16590.88,"end":16615.99,"text":"聘用的護理人員會更加困難導致護理人力的流失影響民眾就醫的權利那甚至也跟我提到說其實會影響到全台109家醫院總共5325床會執行住院整合照護服務這一些都會增加負荷那甚至還有兒童的口腔預防保健等等的服務都會影響民眾的就醫品質"},{"start":16616.69,"end":16641.151,"text":"那還有兩個我非常在意的就是說這個預算被刪掉之後就會更難監測全國社區呼吸道病源跟腸病毒實際流行的趨勢跟病毒變化的情形等於是會直接影響到傳染病疫情的防治的準備跟防疫的作為以及在我們國際機場還有港口設置檢疫站跟執行入境旅客的檢疫"},{"start":16642.012,"end":16667.559,"text":"都很可能變成說沒有辦法及時的攔查到傳染病從境外移入的狀況影響到社區的安全那以上等等都是在審查預算的時候衛福部給我的答案那我現在就要問了請問這一次的追加預算有沒有把以上這些項目納入有的話是不是在追加預算之後以上這些問題可以獲得解決呢"},{"start":16668.41,"end":16689.938,"text":"好的 謝謝我想剛剛委員所提的是我們當時因為在大量凍結預算所產生的一個狀況的一個我們的擔心那當然謝謝大院的支持讓我們的預算能夠得到解凍那大部分這些工作我們都能夠持續在進行"},{"start":16690.543,"end":16715.205,"text":"那在這樣的另外當然也有刪減的部分還是有很重要必須要做的工作包括您所提到關心不管是防疫方面的事情或者是幼兒的一個專責的一個照顧的一個相關的工作優化兒童照顧這個都需要再補相當相當的經費才能夠讓他讓兒童的一個照顧能夠更加的周全沒有受到影響"},{"start":16715.945,"end":16740.934,"text":"所以很希望能夠在這個部分給我們這個部分的幫忙 謝謝好 謝謝部長這個就是我希望衛福部趁這個機會再多做說明然後多讓民眾更直接的感受到這一次的追加預算到底對衛福部對民眾就醫的權益有什麼幫助那是不是可以請更清楚的同仁明確的告訴我例如這一次的完善兒童醫療網路計畫裡面追加兩千一百萬"},{"start":16744.395,"end":16761.739,"text":"然後護理人力的政策的整備中長程計畫追加2200萬還有提高國家重要癌症篩檢的經費追加6600萬這三筆明明都非常的重要那剩下44秒可不可以請部長哪一位同仁告訴我們這三筆經費為什麼這麼重要"},{"start":16764.56,"end":16772.706,"text":"因為這三筆都分布在不同的司可能沒時間跟委員報告那這三筆都是分別需要護理人力還有癌症篩檢這兩筆護理人力的話因為因為癌症篩檢我們要做更多的一個輔導"},{"start":16785.576,"end":16799.827,"text":"還有加上胃癌的一個篩檢所以這個是我們大概要一萬人所以因為胃癌篩檢現在我們只有成效相當重要對於我們要達到癌症死亡率降低三分之一裡面是一個非常關鍵的所以我們要趕快進行來保護"},{"start":16800.527,"end":16809.777,"text":"人民的健康所以這個部分癌症篩檢非常的必要那在護理的同仁方面在三班護病比的方面我們是希望能夠增淚了兩千多萬來希望穩定我們的護病好 我們再給委員資料好啦 謝謝部長我就是要講這個都很需要"},{"start":16817.245,"end":16832.856,"text":"你們要嚴簡易改用最簡單的方式用最短的速度告訴我們為什麼這個追價預算這麼重要我們有做事想做事就要讓大家知道好不好好 我們穩定護理人力加強兒童的照顧 謝謝謝謝 我們現在會請楊瓊英委員自行請事先報我一下"},{"start":16845.378,"end":16846.945,"text":"謝謝主席 本席邀請主席長陳主席長請"},{"start":16857.253,"end":16880.902,"text":"委員好主席好我們今天來討論114年中央總預算的追加預算首先今天送審進來那朝野有一定的溝通的一個基礎這也可以理解這是一個折衝的方案但是我仍要強調過去反對追加預算來作為可能折衝方案它不是立法院是行政院"},{"start":16881.582,"end":16891.886,"text":"因為在2月11號的時候總統那麼邀集了五院來協商立法院的韓院長就立即提出希望行政院別針對於總預算去做這個複議那並也拋出以追加預算的方式來解套也承諾會跟朝野各黨團來做協商不過行政院是拒絕的"},{"start":16904.671,"end":16930.829,"text":"坚持一定要提总预算的复议案结果呢你们现在八月份又自己提出追加预算希望国会来同意这跟你们在施政有很多的政策是一样的也就是着实经费毫无准则那么这一次的追加预算636亿呢地方的补助款你本来就年初就应当要依法编列但是你们不仅自己违法还乱砍"},{"start":16932.43,"end":16955.916,"text":"韓院長到了5月份喔 到了5月份喔他又一直在提醒行政院你可以用追加的方式啊但行政院卻說要提復議結果被否決了 又否決了到了5月份呢你們又用一個方式來砍地方的補助款來對幹立法院現在8月份又要追加補上所以本校請問這麼大的一個變化請教主席長"},{"start":16959.658,"end":16963.011,"text":"二月份當時拒絕提追加的為什麼 請說"},{"start":16965.749,"end":16989.91,"text":"当初不是说要提因为一般我们以往是追加都大部分到年度中间才提一般也是这样然后当初是因为它三减里面它有一个要三减自行三减636的这个问题那当初就是说经过考量以后三减是有困难因为除了636之外呢它三减的"},{"start":16991.45,"end":17010.075,"text":"1439的部分涉及到很多業務單位它是有不能留用有涉及到整個有困難所以妳現在的提問不就是拒絕溝通嗎人家早就跟妳說要怎麼做不就是拒絕溝通嗎絕對不要再政治的操作所以本席要再請問妳們的考量跟最後的決策到底是誰決策要這麼做的"},{"start":17016.872,"end":17034.732,"text":"不是因為本身我們已經2075三檢之後要三檢不是要1439三檢之後要三檢636在國防外交方面三檢是有它的困難還有一般依法律的部分如果說是在人事會的部分也是會有它的困難所以我們才"},{"start":17035.533,"end":17062.19,"text":"提了几个案子去给上面来做决策但是像我们本来是给上面做决策所以本席要告诉你韩院长代表立法院跟你们来沟通协调但是是拒绝沟通的是谁是行政院就是着实经非就是让人民搞不清楚方向也是行政院所以我希望未来的行政院不要再把人民的民生建设来当为筹码"},{"start":17063.525,"end":17076.758,"text":"來威脅人民 來威脅立法院我希望真正的來落實依法行政跟服務人民可以答應如此的方向來做嗎事實上我們本來就是如此啦好 所以本席在這邊要嚴正的強調行政跟立法協調溝通"},{"start":17082.063,"end":17088.927,"text":"不是說行政院說一套做一套因為在這一次的總預算是史上最高2.9兆多再加上878億的最佳預算那麼總預算是高上加高換句話說如果最佳預算全部追加再排除台電的撥補討論那三減的只有到0.65%形同沒有三"},{"start":17105.655,"end":17129.099,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到98年度到101年度大概是0.86左右所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到所有的預算其他的都是刪除1%以上所以在這一次的預算裡頭回編率有12個機關超過三成更有很多的機關回程率大概八九成"},{"start":17129.639,"end":17143.584,"text":"所以我們希望不要弱化立法院的監督而是要真正的以民為本讓社會大眾來說明清楚對不對我們扣除那個最佳增加的部分3.4還有1%也不是說沒有1%謝謝我們現在請徐富奎委員質詢"},{"start":17157.265,"end":17166.532,"text":"謝謝主席有請農業部陳部長請農業部的陳部長經濟部何次長還有交通部吳次長經濟部的何次長交通部吳次長交通部的陳部長次長文英浩"},{"start":17176.744,"end":17192.161,"text":"部長 次長好我想這一次特別提了這些最佳預算我想我們還是要再次強調這應該是中央跟地方縣市政府合作然後要解決鄉親問題的一個很重要的一個關鍵我想部長贊成這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":17195.504,"end":17210.838,"text":"我絕對贊成那所以我在想我們的不分草野應該要共同來支持這樣的一個預算讓我們的政府做好事解決百姓的問題那因為這次我們看一下這個圖片這個保定跟市長"},{"start":17211.759,"end":17225.604,"text":"這個不是颱風這是我們東港只要天溫大潮就會出現這樣淹水的狀況所以我想整個治理計畫是非常非常的重要那尤其這次水利署追加了19億的預算農水署也追加了3.7億的預算"},{"start":17227.465,"end":17245.983,"text":"我一直在強調我也跟院長跟部長都提過了整個治水的部分必須要有規劃要有一個整體的一個計畫的處理那所以我也希望結合經濟部農業部整個從中央到地方從上游中游下游整個做一個治理計畫部長這可以到幾期了我跟"},{"start":17246.804,"end":17268.45,"text":"委員報告一下我們這次農業部追加的10.94億裡面其中有將近8.2億就是在治山防洪的部分那這個部分其實我們一直在做而且現在特別是現在氣候變遷造成的這個土石流大規模崩塌越來越多所以我們急需這樣的一個經費來追加了以後能夠做更多的事情那也請委員支持謝謝"},{"start":17270.07,"end":17294.486,"text":"經濟部何次長我們這是縣政府也提出了至少五個抽水站要更新設備設備都太老舊了那個抽水量能不足然後另外還有我特別一直在運會強調的我們的離岸體跟防火體的這個檢驗的檢查的工作要把這個離岸體加長的部分也請經濟部一定要加快辦理這個署長水利署長這邊也要持續啦我們一定要來做啦那另外柏定"},{"start":17295.885,"end":17310.433,"text":"我是要提到那個災損的問題因為我也知道你跟院長你們也來看了很多次但是我還是有發現因為這次屏東縣我們受損的金額包含丹納斯728超過了2億5千萬但是我們現在從"},{"start":17312.074,"end":17328.526,"text":"從中央到縣市政府到公所這個通報機制我覺得一直串聯上沒有很落實啦尤其我們多少基層公所他們對於這個品項的部分時間的部分都抓不準啊造成我們農民的這個很大的困擾部長怎麼樣去調整這個東西"},{"start":17330.447,"end":17356.08,"text":"我想我也觀察到因為連續性的颱風裡面在公告的時候這些作物有不同的時間所以在這個申請的時間會有一些比較複雜的樣態所以我也請我們農養署還有相關的同仁去跟公所然後必要的時候是可以延長不要說綁死在法規10天就是10天因為公所也loading也太多了所以我們希望說在這個申請的時間可以做檯面的處理"},{"start":17357.04,"end":17383.769,"text":"那另外在相關的那個勘察的時候也可以分批然後盡快的來請款以後我們就可以發救助金部長這個我建議過去我們盤旁邊秘書長當縣長的時候因為我們屏東縣有33個鄉鎮公所我們當時在申報農損的部分我們還把各鄉鎮的農業課的人調到縣政府建構那個SOP大家有一致性的標準部長是不是應該從中央到地方做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":17384.329,"end":17402.663,"text":"我們一直在做這樣子就是每一次開災我們都會跟公所做講習跟座談那這個部分後續我們會再來加強把它更明確一點啦尤其很多品項我們覺得這要叫農民用APP他就不好用要邀署長幫他清澈整個人家的中國市都不好用"},{"start":17405.006,"end":17405.286,"text":"謝謝徐維文的資訊"},{"start":17427.222,"end":17435.548,"text":"那麼也包括文貴我們等一下質詢到范雲委員之後我們再休息十分鐘我們下一位請陳立正委員質詢請謝謝主席我們請主記長 沈記長還有外交部跟法務部陳主記長 陳司記長外交部次長外交部部長沒有來嗎部長出國那個法務部部長法務部正部長這明顯 正部長有來嗎"},{"start":17466.994,"end":17479.15,"text":"我想先請問一個最根本的問題這個636億這個部分當初我們審議是有給地方性補助款沒有問題吧 主席長我們有給地方嘛 對不對總統有沒有明令公佈"},{"start":17481.726,"end":17496.399,"text":"不是在公佈的時候我們就已經刪減了就刪減636公佈的時候我有看到總統令喔他是第25項然後636一般縣市政府一般補助款他明明白白寫這幾個字喔不是那裡面他有寫要我們自行調整刪減636不是"},{"start":17501.245,"end":17514.205,"text":"這個錢是有名的那一條我們是沒有刪的不管你現在把它刪掉了不是把它刪掉你把它挪用了然後這次又就是不給地方政府然後現在又要來就是說又漏票要挾我們就一定要追加了追加這個"},{"start":17514.906,"end":17526.732,"text":"因為他本身他就規定我要3減2076那2076裡面呢統籌的部分939那我們939能夠按標準時間有限了沒關係因為我們想說好這一次如果我們通過這個636億這個有溝通那這個就是說會不會你們又再一次如果我們沒有通過這個130而已這不是有130而已嗎然後如果我們不通過這130你會不會又把這個錢挪用啊"},{"start":17543.828,"end":17567.95,"text":"如果我們這次不通過一百三十二億你會不會再把我們地方政府要給地方政府的六百三十二億再挪用一次你會不會再進行調整大聲一點我們講現在我就講現在現在六百三十六億如果給你過一百三十二億不給你過你會再挪去用嗎會把六百三十六億再移去給一百三十二億用嗎"},{"start":17569.548,"end":17579.103,"text":"會不會 不會 蛤 不會 肯定不會喔肯定不會喔 那如果之前有我想問法務部啦 還有司法院喔這個如果公務人員沒有依法刑 他審計長有來嗎"},{"start":17581.513,"end":17608.22,"text":"公務員如果沒有依法行政對不對總統明令公布的法令沒有按照做預算或是在預算過程中沒有按照預算來支給來使用預算的話這樣有違背什麼法令公務人員要依法行政吧如果有涉及到刑事不法當然有告訴高發或者是自首或其他的情形式的話那檢察官當然可以依法來支辦這刑訴數228條就要看有沒有成立"},{"start":17610.407,"end":17623.67,"text":"如果有犯罪嫌疑的話 根據刑事司法那是不是公聯使用這個公帑是不是應該依法使用當然是依法行政嘛那是不是涉及犯罪犯罪個案認定這個我沒辦法幫你講講那個具體的好 謝謝你 來 那個審計長那他這種自己挪用這個預算的這個行為我們到時候你要怎麼審計啊"},{"start":17631.856,"end":17649.065,"text":"我們是監督預算執行對對對他如果他已經這樣執行了到時候你們怎麼來做相關機關都要照預算來執行是沒錯應該照預算但他已經沒有的話你到時候怎麼做因為我們會看情節是怎麼樣的話我們會來處理移送給相關機關嘛比如說檢調單位嘛好那我想請教外交部"},{"start":17652.854,"end":17681.065,"text":"這是追加的預算其他可以休息追加的預算裡頭你們增加了你們原來319億經過3減剩305你們又追加20億所以你們超補了7億多做什麼作用這裡頭包括行政院有超補31億然後海委會有超補4億他都跟我們講合理的理由外交部7億多做什麼主要做什麼報告委員在迴邊方面是那個駐外人員的護調"},{"start":17682.842,"end":17705.209,"text":"比錢不用戶雕嗎那為什麼現在比原來的預算比114年度的預算又多了7億多比你原來變的多7億多新增那部分 今年有通過健保就住外人要付錢多7億多就對了 說這7億多是健保就對了沒關係我可以一個 那是主要項目健保良益嘛"},{"start":17707.129,"end":17714.515,"text":"然後外管租金也增加那你原來去年在編的時候沒有嗎來 你給我一個完整的說明因為我們時間有限 你給我完整的說明好 謝謝好 謝謝陳立正委員的質詢那麼請吳政次再給陳立正委員事後給他一個補充報告現在羅美玲羅美玲委員不在請范雲委員質詢 請"},{"start":17739.114,"end":17747.246,"text":"謝謝召委 有請教育部正部長跟體育署 正部長請體育署洪志昌副署長 體育署洪副署長"},{"start":17759.397,"end":17775.419,"text":"委員好部長午安關於師大女足案的後續問題兩週前我在教文委員會質詢指出不是只有國科會督導下的師大案教育部體育署補助的運科計畫"},{"start":17776.641,"end":17791.109,"text":"有長期綁定選手受試而且更嚴重的是有大量未成年學生參與計畫那卻疑似沒有知情同意的嚴重違規情形那我上次有講到"},{"start":17792.41,"end":17817.119,"text":"施大安爆發以來運科計畫好像落入了法外之地體育署給我的公文還有對外說因為不是研究不適用人體研究法所以一直都沒有清查處理那次部長應該記得衛福部當場就說涉及到未成年絕對是要適用人體研究法無論是不是有出版那我這邊想讓"},{"start":17821.539,"end":17846.033,"text":"想讓部長看到的是運科計畫不是只有涉及血液樣本有問題因為就在我質詢要求之後上個禮拜8月19號終於看到教育部專案小組說明表示現在正在就運科計畫涉及血液樣本的案件是否符合人體研究法"},{"start":17846.633,"end":17862.935,"text":"那可是呢教育部要正視這個孕科計畫的問題不是只有涉及血液部長如果只有處理涉及血液這不是大家認知的全面清查我想部長應該同意沒有抽血的案件也可能有違規"},{"start":17864.076,"end":17873.447,"text":"是的 跟委員報告我確實也跟政署長提所有未成年所有的青少年在運科計畫裡邊都應該要有監護人或者當事人年齡有一些同意"},{"start":17882.697,"end":17905.485,"text":"謝謝部長 我知道你認同我上次講的我希望他們未來都要全力來改正你說體育署不應該是法外之地下面的計畫就應該要遵循人體研究法我想下一頁讓部長看一下我後來在我質詢之後終於拿到體育署調查的結果請部長看一下"},{"start":17906.645,"end":17925.493,"text":"整個案子有289件裡面只有不到一半的有知情同意不到一半的有知情同意裡面有多少未成年289件裡面超過200件是未成年受冊所以這個有多嚴重"},{"start":17926.874,"end":17950.972,"text":"到現在為止體育署沒有辦法跟我講有多少是強迫未成年學生接受檢測我們體育署署長鎮署長對外說運科補助計畫不能拿去研究發表有研究發表是個別教授不如譬如說個別違規請部長看一下最後一個這不是個別教授研究發表佔了23案8案30幾案不是個案"},{"start":17953.614,"end":17968.093,"text":"所以體育署長對外說是個案這根本就忽略了當時申請的時候他明明就知道申請書都有說要做國際發表更嚴重的是這是我好不容易要來的資料請部長看一下國體大王翔星"},{"start":17969.374,"end":17994.015,"text":"國體大黃啟黃一個是我們運科計畫的管理者就是領導者一個是我們未來的運動部次長我們的運科中心執行長國體大教授他幾個案子七八個案子未成年每個都是未成年每個都沒有知情同意國體大黃啟黃我們未來的準運動部次長他自己就有公開發表所以我不知道體育署為什麼對外講"},{"start":17995.416,"end":18018.747,"text":"明明他是運科中心執行長自己都公開發表還說個別違規的教授去公開發表所以呢如果我們未來的體育部的次長等等都有這樣的東西我們如何重建信任所以我請教一步不管未來你下面體育組長是誰"},{"start":18020.367,"end":18045.434,"text":"請監督要有專案小組處理後續的究責歸還有沒有積欠學生的受試費是不是有強迫學生要有外部專家參與另外要成立受試者保護委員會請教育部 運動部 衛福部合作落實未來的查核機制跟審查最重要的是這一批200多案不能因為誰升官了就不處理好不好 部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":18046.814,"end":18052.477,"text":"是的 我想我們 未來一定不會再發生 救責補償對外交代 那要有最少三分之一的外部專家參與 可以嗎謝謝部長 謝謝潘委員的質詢我們現在休息十分鐘 因為有大概兩個多小時"},{"start":18189.179,"end":18193.285,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":18278.899,"end":18280.93,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18727.458,"end":18731.322,"text":"好 報告委員會我們現在繼續開會請各位維持會場的次序要講話的話請各位到外面去講話好不好讓我們開會喔拜託拜託報告委員會我們繼續開會"},{"start":18750.236,"end":18770.121,"text":"今天在這個房間人太多了所以CO2太高了 大家渾渾沉沉的 希望老家各位幫幫忙我們繼續開會 下一位請林一景 林一景委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在葉元之委員請質詢 請"},{"start":18779.315,"end":18780.997,"text":"主席好 麻煩請入委會請入委會入委會的邱主委請入委會市委好主委好 想針對那個海基會的預算跟你請教一下"},{"start":18803.636,"end":18820.224,"text":"因為現在你們整個陸委會是追加一億六百四七萬八千嘛那其中捐助海基會是九千八百七十五萬一千那海基會他在上一次被刪減的是九千八百九十萬"},{"start":18821.311,"end":18845.789,"text":"那等於是之前海基會被刪減的部分你這次全部透過追加把它補回來嗎沒錯啊是的就是差一點點嘛是差一點點是那想問一下海基會的業務因為你們認為說要追加的原因是因為有12項那現在看起來除了第12項辦公廳社這個基本維運是因為可能一個比較緊急的項目之外"},{"start":18846.75,"end":18875.015,"text":"大部分都是說要恢復嘛都是因為沒有錢所以都停辦了是不是是譬如說舉例來講好了現在緊急服務專案提供24小時服務現在只有12小時我們認為我們國人在兩岸可能都有一些緊急服務要處理所以要恢復24小時是然後我們台商經貿網還有台商的講座因為現在我覺得我們應該及時給台商要恢復是不是要恢復然後要增加辦理陸配關懷活動"},{"start":18876.936,"end":18894.611,"text":"那現在陸配關懷活動有辦嗎就是因為經費我們本來有計畫是到各縣市去拜訪這些比較弱勢的陸配如果你們關心陸配的話這是一個題外話啦你應該要降低特別是網路上或者是你們民進黨對於陸配的歧視"},{"start":18895.552,"end":18924.774,"text":"之前网路上说什么听到有中国口音啊或者是有什么名字叫铁军啊就说哎呀这好有国安问题他也许也是路配嘛但是就被直接扣这个帽子我觉得你要如果有路配因为开店啊他写简直字啊我们都会我觉得你要去努力的去如果说你的你的目的是要关怀路配其实他们现在在社会上蛮多这种氛围你应该也要去解决这是我们的职责那我们现在想要了解的是实际上"},{"start":18925.515,"end":18930.652,"text":"在112年度跟113年度海基位的預算跟"},{"start":18931.806,"end":18951.715,"text":"被砍之後的預算實際上差不多的喔是大概都是 大概都差不多可是為什麼要追加這九千多萬難道沒有加這九千多萬後續的業務就不能推廣了嗎我們市場 海基會也有對外募款自籌的部分他已經用了用自籌的但是會讓財務越來 處數會越來越大所以我們一方面是兼顧優質的服務品質"},{"start":18958.118,"end":18981.275,"text":"那同時也兼顧他整個財務的健全所以他如果那個動很大未來那個處數所以業務是可以推但是你怕他去借錢造成那個問題是不是造成他的處數越來越大好那接下來喔你剛剛提到說兩岸的經貿論壇都已經停辦要恢復嘛可是實際上我在網路上看你們都一直有在辦啊"},{"start":18983.431,"end":18995.857,"text":"跟委員報告是針對台商需求有台商的經貿網那個沒有在update還有沒有沒有我講的是兩岸經貿講座你看一下那個投影片這都有在辦啊"},{"start":18998.879,"end":19017.798,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分就是說我們辦的那個廣度密度要更高多辦幾場是不是這個感覺錢都沒有花在刀口上我感覺你們就是先框了一筆預算之後再講說要做什麼後面實際上大家期待海基會應該是服務"},{"start":19019.801,"end":19032.002,"text":"應該是做服務啦可是因為兩岸關係急動啊所以不管是在處理經貿糾紛或者是衛民服務案件或者是處理兩岸文書驗證其實都就降低很多案件數降低很多"},{"start":19032.697,"end":19050.574,"text":"那在按揭書降低很多情況之下海基會還要想要維持跟以前一樣預算甚至更多我覺得大家會有點疑慮啦所以應該是要以提升服務為主啦是是 我們全力以赴而不是說辦活動這有點本末倒置了好 謝謝委員謝謝會議委員的質詢現在會請翁曉琳翁曉琳委員不在請王振旭委員質詢 請"},{"start":19068.245,"end":19070.729,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩衛福部邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":19081.912,"end":19099.375,"text":"委員好部長好是感謝你喔是今天你本來這麼辛苦貢獻很多一起為國家奮鬥大家會永遠感念在心我今天有三個問題跟你請教是我先就全部把它說明完畢以後再麻煩部長來做回覆"},{"start":19099.735,"end":19123.562,"text":"好的第一件就是有關於調整這個基層信義基層合理門診量的日數來維持健保合理的給付點值第二個部分就是獎勵風災水災的期間有出勤的這個醫護人員給予適當的鼓勵第三個就是公會疫苗上傳的作業我們現在知道說自從蔣總統週休二日還有今年五"},{"start":19124.302,"end":19141.49,"text":"5月9號立法院通過紀念日跟節日實施條例以後增加了整個相關的一些立休假日每一年至少讓我們平均的勞工每一個月可以休到10天左右"},{"start":19142.55,"end":19170.948,"text":"大家也知道在台灣看病很方便其實我們的專責醫師在711基層的部分每月看診日數到達25天等於說每一個月平均多出工作日數是比一般的勞工增加了5天以上這個除了醫師以外還包括我們的護理藥師同仁所以具體的希望在政策上根據這一些的改變能夠有效的來做一些相關的措施"},{"start":19171.528,"end":19198.237,"text":"第一個就是來完善配套之下調整健保門診合理的日數跟人次因為這個詳細的這個數字大家也都清楚第二個就是不要挪平日來補六日盡量避免平日的門診的衝擊剛有提到嘛這25天其實是很辛苦為了要讓一般的這些病人能夠有機會來看診可是也不要把這個平日跟假日挪為一談"},{"start":19198.937,"end":19221.737,"text":"另外就是希望能夠編列公務預算來增加這邊造成的這種整體健保的支出那今年的部分希望能夠盡量用外加預算的協助這個就是為什麼今天會在這邊跟你討論這個事情一個很重要的理由這是政策建議上面針對合理門診量的部分請部長來處理的"},{"start":19222.958,"end":19240.949,"text":"那第二個部分我們也知道這次風災還有水災期間補償也讓人們沒有關心整天那其實在這次的這個特別統計條例裡面剛好沒有看到衛福部提供預算相關的這些內容這個是有點可惜不過我們也期待補償給你關心讓人們沒有看整天要知道"},{"start":19247.732,"end":19261.878,"text":"很多醫護同仁事實上還是在出勤還是在協助整個醫療的作業所以能不能夠予以獎勵如果這個風災相關的疫情惡化以後能不能夠補助健保的點子"},{"start":19262.378,"end":19273.771,"text":"那最後有一些優化公會疫苗上傳作業能不能夠透過好的制度好的系統來不要再逐筆的手動處理這幾個事情麻煩部長來幫忙做回覆"},{"start":19274.557,"end":19293.012,"text":"好 我非常感謝委員對醫療院所疑似同仁的一個權益的一個照顧那我先做一個報告再請委員指教第一個我想為了應應國定假日的增加所以我們基層醫療這個部分也要應應所以在5月"},{"start":19293.752,"end":19320.044,"text":"今年的5月26號已經喊請調整合理門人量的天數由25天下降到22天那已經提114.6月25號的一個基層總委員商會議討論會議決議是修正通過啦那所以每月看診的人數的日式調整為22日那在第一段的看診人數由30人變成35人這是第一個那駕入開診的這個部分我想那個我們就盡量來爭取經費"},{"start":19322.665,"end":19347.265,"text":"那所有的疫苗的一個呈現我們已經改善很多了譬如說在校園裡面就可以直接來處理那未來會把這樣的一個公會疫苗的上傳做得更精準 更好好 謝謝謝謝我們的資訊下面請徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣文不在沈發慧 沈花蕙 沈花蕙文不在張家俊 張家俊 張家俊文不在"},{"start":19348.607,"end":19360.177,"text":"陳昌明陳昌明陳昌明委員不在吳立華吳立華吳立華委員不在游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在林月琴委員請主席麻煩衛福部部長邱部長請"},{"start":19382.509,"end":19405.468,"text":"委員好部長好今天事實上是中央政府總預算的追加預算案的審查八個委員會的聯席詢問相信很多委員都針對很多預算都想問我也是不過只有時間五分鐘所以我想盡快針對我過去提過的一些問題來做質詢希望部長能夠共同來解決這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":19407.81,"end":19431.363,"text":"首先我想部長應該也很清楚同樣是面臨少子化的問題可是偏偏台灣的孩子就是比日韓生得少可是我們5歲以下的死亡率從2020年之後開始往上攀升甚至已經是日韓的兩倍了我想這是讓人遺憾的一個數據所在是前幾天我跟"},{"start":19432.384,"end":19458.196,"text":"家庭照顾者总会开过还有个案共同召开了一个记者会问的就是恩硕的故事部长你有注意到这个事情吗当然有那部长有注意到这个事情的话我相信卫福部呢在儿少的医疗照护的政策上很努力从110年就开始透过我们的优化儿童医疗照顾计划来挹注经费可是为什么花了10亿元在重症"},{"start":19458.576,"end":19480.499,"text":"重男症的醫療網絡建制為什麼救不了恩索甚至我們要問的是那114年到117年衛福部已經編列了優化兒童醫療照護計畫裡邊預計再投入18億的一個在重男症的醫療上所以我想問一下部長說你覺得會發生恩索的這樣的一個死亡事件你覺得問題出在哪裡"},{"start":19480.939,"end":19503.762,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們在優化兒童醫療照護計畫裡面是分了三個層級第一個層級在醫學中心這個部分當然就是把急難症醫療把它做好那當然區域有區域的一個負責任的一個值班的晚上的問題那在社區的話就是要做幼兒專責醫師三個一直下去"},{"start":19504.202,"end":19526.548,"text":"我們都知道剛剛您一直很關心兒童死亡率的提高我們一直探討這個原因也一直改善也跟民間團體一直在努力所以我們在健康台灣就是首先要把這個比例下降部長我覺得問題一個主要是我們的骨髓移植病房建立非常的難因為為什麼"},{"start":19529.449,"end":19553.181,"text":"因為我問了醫事師跟健保署醫療端都要看就是說他們要如何去建立這個需要符合什麼樣的條件他們回答我說醫法只要有具備特殊病房的一個設施設備的空間的一些要求就可設立可是當然是在審查的時候也要去了解到說營運的規範醫護人員的運用情形但是我比較好奇的是"},{"start":19553.921,"end":19573.304,"text":"醫院光是要建置這些特殊病房的設施設備就要花大錢那難怪很多時候醫院他不願意去投入這樣子那難道不能夠去做更好的事情嗎那問題二就是南北的醫療資源分配不均部長看到這個數據你應該可以知道就是今天高雄台南他們的"},{"start":19574.085,"end":19589.109,"text":"骨髓移植病床數只有六床或四床在這樣的狀況底下那恩碩剛好就是在南部所以難怪會有發生這樣的事情所以最後我希望能夠政府部門加速提升兒童醫療的照護網絡跟"},{"start":19591.43,"end":19619.981,"text":"轉運的量能而且規劃我們的兒童優先分配的特殊病床的一個機制在還有注意各區的平衡我們也希望部長可以幫幫忙因為這個預算我們也希望你能夠編列在這次的後端真的要以這個為優先最後就是問題三我們的右專的醫師不一定懂兒童篩檢因為這個事實上之前我就質詢過了而且甚至這事實上是一個問題我不知道現在進度如何"},{"start":19621.963,"end":19625.515,"text":"因為5月19的時候你就說回復演藝那現在進度如何"},{"start":19627.83,"end":19628.07,"text":"謝謝林委員的質詢下一位請羅廷偉委員質詢"},{"start":19658.356,"end":19668.208,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請主計長 內政部 國防部陳主計長 內政部 留學部長 教育部副部長 教育部政部長 經濟部黃次長交通部 文化部 交通部次長委員好"},{"start":19678.697,"end":19698.788,"text":"好 主席長早上我有聽黃國昌委員在問其他的部會部會有回答追加預算是依預算法79條第三款主席長就以第三款來說所辦事業重大事故經費超過法定預算就以這一款來說請你告訴全體國人114年度預算到今天"},{"start":19699.488,"end":19709.798,"text":"今年8月28號指有哪一個部會的預算使用已經超過法定預算或者是重大事故是什麼事請主席講說明不要離題喔 謝謝"},{"start":19711.343,"end":19737.74,"text":"我這裡也要說明一下因為當初被刪減的部分它的一個比率偏高第二個就是說來 主席副編也是今年度最多的刪了以後還是法定預算創新高請繼續但是這個是它刪減的是指定項目譬如說它出國經會它刪減了60%然後有一些相關譬如說媒體宣會它刪減60%那有的是全部都刪減"},{"start":19738.541,"end":19761.324,"text":"但我們這一次看到有很多很扯的你還有超補的問題還有所謂的迴編的問題來 我們來看立法院的秘書長針對這一次的追加預算預算中心的報告明明白白寫得很清楚第一 迴編率太高第二 預算法79條第三款的規定部會的重大事故是什麼都沒有寫"},{"start":19762.205,"end":19779.141,"text":"你這樣子就要拿出來這個報告不是都寫得很清楚嗎我希望不管是執政黨還有執政黨的委員不要睜眼說瞎話而且主席長我問你你知道追加預算有單位回編一千元你知道嗎你知道是哪個單位嗎"},{"start":19780.702,"end":19798.221,"text":"回邊一千元有幾個單位是這樣子因為他是出旅費的部分因為旅費被限制旅費回邊一千元因為旅費他被限制沒有這一千他不能出國他是整個是國內旅費的部分他本身整個是一個機關來我想跟全體國人報告"},{"start":19800.002,"end":19817.533,"text":"這個單位就是國家圖書館追加預算1000元它也不是旅費的問題它是辦理古籍文獻典藏維護考編及閱覽服務等所需費用追加1000國家圖書館這樣子有符合預算法第79條嗎2月28日前它有所謂的"},{"start":19821.275,"end":19849.575,"text":"事故所辦理有重大事故而且有所謂的已經超出現在的預算嗎我想這就是多少回編的問題主席長有沒有掌握呢那我也要加問國防部內政部今年六月立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例自願意加薪三萬一月份三讀的警察人員人事條例提高警銷的所得替代率到八成很多委員都在問到底現在軍人跟警銷的錢有沒有編請問國防部"},{"start":19851.116,"end":19870.065,"text":"還有內政部報告 我們並沒有放在114年的追加預算那我們也曾經詢問過行政院那行政院現在的統一對話當然就是以憲法法庭的這個解釋為主那我們會按照憲法法庭還有行政院的指示來辦理"},{"start":19871.024,"end":19894.912,"text":"所以你們就是還是繼續打算用憲法法庭來卡這件事情那我另外再請問2020年行政院宣布斑斑有冷氣投入300億元要於2022年超前完成當初政府很清楚說電費一定會增加因此承諾由中央補助避免學校家長陷入裝了冷氣卻不能開的一個窘境"},{"start":19895.552,"end":19909.216,"text":"政策的配套也是當初這樣子對社會整個承諾我們看到2022年由蔡英文總統所帶領的行政院他們宣布的國家政策2020年由當時蘇貞昌宣布"},{"start":19913.917,"end":19943.097,"text":"教育部都明白的指出電費補助這項政策的配套當中的一環教育是憲法保障的權利涉及全國一致性的基本標準因此我認為這是中央統籌才能夠監督整個制度的穩定但是經濟部郭志輝竟然還講說這個電費要由地方政府來出我想這諸多不宜的言論都會造成地方的恐慌我們也再次譴責"},{"start":19943.797,"end":19946.137,"text":"請各位保持宿敬喔"},{"start":19970.134,"end":19989.764,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請經濟部還有台電台灣電力公司台電今天沒有來我們內部在質詢外部的聲音還是很大主席我們請各位要講話出去外面講話好嗎後面還有幾位都還在講話請各位你們講話我沒辦法開會啊"},{"start":20002.727,"end":20017.796,"text":"好 謝謝這個主席這個政威馬上就有效果台灣電網老舊已經是長期存在問題尤其是這個我們的西部海岸線然後遭遇到風災就會停電的情況至今還是沒有辦法獲得這個改善"},{"start":20018.396,"end":20032.909,"text":"我想這個表格大家看一下市場列看一下2023年的消費權就8萬戶的停電2024的康瑞4萬多戶2025丹麗絲已經到了9萬多戶今年的快速的洋流又來到了8千多戶這個是指雲泥縣"},{"start":20035.891,"end":20053.167,"text":"指引力線不是全國在這個過程裡面我想這段時間大家一直在強調韌性的電力顯然台灣的電力整個電網達到韌性的指標是十萬八千里所以今天才會有這樣的情況發生"},{"start":20055.71,"end":20068.302,"text":"如果卓院長在8月16號已經正式宣布那啟動全國這個電纜地下化我想我們當然樂觀其成我還希望可以更加快的速度不過在當時當時在2022年的時候台電就已經提出強化電網韌性建設計畫規劃在10年內投入5600多億然後推動渾散電網工程精進強固電網"},{"start":20078.832,"end":20100.063,"text":"工程及強化系統防衛的能力等三大主軸三大主軸裡面有沒有包含電纜地下化跟委員報告因為電纜地下化的經費是蠻龐大的有沒有包括這三項有沒有包括10年的電網韌性它最主要是希望把"},{"start":20101.311,"end":20126.65,"text":"集中式的電網把它變成是一個分散式的電網不是啊 市長你要回答我有沒有包括電纜 地箱都沒有對不對好 那現在卓院長指示的要來把全台的電纜 地箱的話尤其台17 19等嘛對不對好 那你們規劃的期程所需的經費給院長的報告是多少請簡單說明那跟委員報告那這個卓院長他也請台電時間有限請簡單說明好不好"},{"start":20128.912,"end":20145.382,"text":"那台電這邊他會兩個月內提出一個評估報告包括那個經費還有騎乘的部分所以這個部分我想就讓台電那邊把整個規劃報告所以你不曉得你不曉得昨天審查特別條例的時候就已經有講大致上是八十億"},{"start":20145.922,"end":20165.145,"text":"八十億是這次的風災的預算但是這次要評估是全國是啦 那八十億用在哪邊八十億最主要是用在這個台十七線十九線還有十一線還有台九線最主要是沿海八十億要負責四條這個省道台十七十九等"},{"start":20167.126,"end":20194.632,"text":"夠嗎市長你覺得夠嗎可能不太夠啦可能不太夠是絕對不夠不是不太夠所以你們要預估像卓院長所講的要把這全台的電纜地下化的總體經費是多少都期程應該怎樣去把它精算清楚不是只有兩個月不應該兩個月提出啦可能要更長久的時間但是要快速提出最好是不要超過兩個月我在講的意思你聽懂我的講法嗎"},{"start":20196.593,"end":20216.334,"text":"所以到昨天我在提這個案的時候我就覺得莫名其妙怎麼只有八十億那台電也達富我也韓南富這其一其二怎麼做針對沿海的地區西部的地區山區呢山區今天所有遇到颱風的時候發生的電感折斷"},{"start":20217.415,"end":20237.235,"text":"每一枚要去搶修護墊所有的土石流落實誰處理除了地方政府 除了公務局我們難道期待台電的同仁也去搬石頭才去護墊嗎所以有沒有把山區的這樣的狀況納入到這一次的整體評估裡面 有沒有應該會有沒有"},{"start":20240.083,"end":20246.549,"text":"這一次的沒有市長你不要回答我們的訪問事情沒有沒有 我要告訴大家評估"},{"start":20248.786,"end":20274.606,"text":"回去之後要趕快納入評估所以你可能不只需要兩個月我希望給你更寬裕的時間但是我當然還是期待不只是台灣的海岸線不只是台灣的沿海不只是台灣的西部連台灣的山區都一併要把所有的電纜加強韌性一切納入評估整體的報告中 可以吧可以好 謝謝好 謝謝劉委員的質詢下一位請陳清輝委員質詢請"},{"start":20283.19,"end":20290.573,"text":"謝謝主席我希望請經濟部的代表還有水利署經濟部的何次長水利署謝謝委員好"},{"start":20296.977,"end":20322.777,"text":"謝謝這邊首先其實只要高雄只要下大雨像昨天下午傍晚也淹水的非常嚴重然後也到那邊去做一些會刊等等的所以這個問題對高屏的人民非常的重要想請問中央政府自108年起透過專案投入經費辦理包括中央河川高屏溪水系淨流分擔的評估報告這個作業就是為了要提高降雨"},{"start":20323.758,"end":20342.719,"text":"對水稻還有土地的分配還有達成水利工程的最終目的來減輕水災來我們想請教代表跟署長評估報告進行是在水利署可是實施範圍的公告前核定作業在經濟部目前呢這個高頻溪水系淨流分擔評估報告"},{"start":20344.881,"end":20367.912,"text":"從108年2月到現在已經拖了6年半我們想知道原因到底是什麼因為每遇到水災的次數災情就非常的心痛請問多久內可以完成短期內可以完成什麼進度可以在這邊清楚的跟我們國人尤其是高屏地區來交代跟說明嗎想知道原因還有進度 謝謝"},{"start":20369.974,"end":20389.35,"text":"好 那這個我是不是可以請我們那個水利署這邊來回答署長謝謝委員的一個關心那我們現在事實上整個台灣都在做一些敬禮分擔的評估報告那至於這個評估報告是不是容我們會後馬上給你比較詳細資料因為正在評估中"},{"start":20390.547,"end":20408.248,"text":"你至少講一下原因已經六年半還沒有生出來的原因在哪裡一般來講當然很多縣市政府跟我們中央這邊都有針對裡面的內容都還有在檢討中像說我們中央提出來的部分"},{"start":20408.769,"end":20434.595,"text":"可能縣市政府他可能認為哪一個部分還要再檢討所以導致可能沒辦法提出來但是我們事實上在很多的系統化治理裡面有一些工程我們會先做因為淨流分擔的報告是所有的工程做完以後如果還是不足夠才會去推淨流分擔的一個報告所以這個報告是一個因應氣候變遷的補充的報告的部分而已"},{"start":20434.775,"end":20454.15,"text":"所以你的意思是前面不斷的來來回回也不是我特別跟委員報告就是說我們事實上為了因應氣候變遷的狀況已經有在審查那這個報告經往通的說明已經剛剛審查過了方向過了但是將來西部會來具以實施那進度呢進度我們盡量來趕大概多久"},{"start":20461.721,"end":20466.519,"text":"因為這個他還要提到經濟部來做一些審議那原則上我們會盡快來推"},{"start":20468.24,"end":20492.426,"text":"好 你可以講出一年兩年不會講不出來一年內是不是從我們今年內把它完成今年內 好另外就請教署長因為本週你有看到甲仙區所有的里長來到立法院陳情反映關於甲仙區因為被越獄引水影響到地方的發展還有水土保持等等的所以我們也要在這邊請署長告訴我們"},{"start":20493.966,"end":20516.986,"text":"會念在甲仙區對維持高雄供水穩定的特殊性跟貢獻性確定可以支持高雄市政府朝維持原本優先分配甲仙區1500萬水源保護回饋費的這個方向如果有金額上的不足水利組這邊也會承諾會支應自身的財源來補足是嗎 請你給我一個結論"},{"start":20517.907,"end":20532.752,"text":"好 非常謝謝委員我想這個是我們的推動共識從107年水利署核定的方向就是這樣子所以原則上我們會考慮到甲鮮的特殊性我們會全力來達成 以上說明好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳清威委員的質詢下一位請王宏威委員王宏威 王宏威委員不在下一位請林楚瑩委員質詢 請"},{"start":20555.854,"end":20562.62,"text":"謝謝主席主席辛苦了各部會首長辛苦了有請外交部外交部的吳次長吳政次對委員好"},{"start":20577.165,"end":20598.703,"text":"好 次長本席身為這個國防外交的委員那麼我知道您從歐洲回來有關於這個歐洲國家對於台灣的重視在您擔任駐法代表的時候就持續到我們看到的這一次的奧運其實我們不只是奧運被世界看到當時在法國 巴黎我們也有一個文化奧運"},{"start":20599.724,"end":20628.375,"text":"那麼本席是非常支持這樣的一個做法因為這個是讓台灣的軟實力被看見那麼把台灣被凸顯出來我們也知道接下來在捷克在歐洲還有歐洲的文化台灣文化年這些活動的舉辦真的不可能又要馬而好又要馬而不吃草所以本席在這裡也要特別的是給予鼓勵跟支持因為我們知道接下來立法院也將有代表團會跟著部長一起"},{"start":20629.075,"end":20657.809,"text":"來看台灣的文物在歐洲展示的部分那麼在這個部分只要是能夠對於台灣給予支持讓台灣被看到本席都願意來給予預算上面的扶持所以這是我們現在在這裡討論追加預算不過我們來看下一張本席雖然身為執政黨的委員我還是要點出來就是隨著國際情勢的變化我們知道尤其是現在全球都面臨的是物價上漲的壓力也不是只有台灣"},{"start":20658.749,"end":20686.138,"text":"那麼以114年度也就是2025年的預算來講外交部是原并編列了302億但是在經過了12億的刪除之後法定預算來到了290億其實很多的國際宣傳國際合作以及國際救難等過去我們強調的Taiwan Can Help這些錢都被刪了那麼本席也認為他應該要加回來不過我還是認為"},{"start":20687.398,"end":20711.838,"text":"外交部有必要解釋的是被刪了8億多但是現在提的追加預算卻來到21億比原併的就是等於刪的還要多那麼我認為這個時候我要提供你時間好好的來解釋一下這樣的狀況是為了什麼到底錢用在什麼地方還是說真的有什麼不足的部分"},{"start":20713.227,"end":20731.337,"text":"好 謝謝委員很快以去年在巴黎奧運為例用了我們多國際宣傳費我們看到台灣在巴黎奧運的時候得到很多的關注一般而言我們外交部預算在2008年的時候曾經佔我們政府總預算的1.8%到去年291的時候已經一路降到只剩下0.98%所以外交部的預算確實是一直在遞減"},{"start":20742.003,"end":20745.086,"text":"要做 我們知道我們的國際環境是比較辛苦的所以事實上是需要更多的立法院的支持現在我們多邊出來的我們不是就說我們回邊跟多邊的其實有很大一部分"},{"start":20756.619,"end":20778.732,"text":"是我們駐外人員的戶調也就是我們大使出去然後換國家這些都需要經費的那這個都被曾經被刪過所以我們把它回編回來那新編的例如說是我們的健保我們的健保就是我們駐外人員他們在外面他們在外面也有也有就是說有那個保費那健保"},{"start":20779.633,"end":20809.273,"text":"事實上需要政府的支持因為外交人員很辛苦所以這屬於對於我們外交人員的支持這一部分還有我們的租金就是外管的租金其實因為通貨膨脹這不是去年可以預測到的那它造成我們現在外交部很大的負擔所以要維持我們外管的一個正常運作我們需要加編的這樣的一個項目所以這大概是主要是比較是這一類的來請大院來支持我們外交部"},{"start":20809.841,"end":20826.71,"text":"好 那麼從部長 次長所說的這個部分我們就了解到說其實這都跟駐外的實際運營的工作是有關的是的好 尤其是剛剛你特別提到的有關於健保費這個部分因為因應這個市縣的結果現在健保是不能停的"},{"start":20827.23,"end":20842.043,"text":"那麼所以說等於這些外管的同仁他們的健保費這些都要補齊那麼如果是這樣的話我希望透過你的說明等一下再做具體討論的時候能夠幫外交部多補留一些第一線外交官支持的費用"},{"start":20842.964,"end":20870.4,"text":"非常謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝林楚瑩委員的質詢感謝那麼報告委員會今天登記公開發言的委員軍已經巡打完畢我們現在休息20分鐘我們要改開機密會議機密會議的地點改在群宣樓801就在樓下那機密會議只有外交跟國防所以其他委員會"},{"start":20871.42,"end":20900.068,"text":"其他各部會可以在原地休息還有主機長要到主機長要到等一下801 20分鐘以後我們要在那邊清場地20分鐘以後我們機密會議我們就不對外開放了媒體不開放但是其他的部會首長請留在原地休息你們休息我們處理完了再回來馬上要處理預算了馬上要處理預算好不好好 我們現在休息20分鐘"},{"start":23702.199,"end":23703.6,"text":"好 這個向委員會報告請各位尊重開會好不好在裡面不要講話 拜託拜託"},{"start":23716.257,"end":23719.559,"text":"我們現在因為秘密會議已經開完了我們就回過來我們把所有提案大概有100案子左右我們現在正式宣讀大概宣讀時間要40分鐘要40分鐘所以各位如果40分鐘宣讀宣讀以後我們就主案來處理先跟各位報告然後跟各位報告後續的"},{"start":23745.638,"end":23765.692,"text":"今天晚上8點鐘由韓院長主持的朝野黨團協商我會到 那麼委員也歡迎你到有提案的委員都歡迎你到好不好所以大概是這個樣子所以現在3點我們就好不好就是到4點鐘好不好就是唸然後加休息到4點鐘回來開始處理這樣請會長會長安靜啦 才聽得到他們唸什麼那各位可以看一下提案囉好 謝謝"},{"start":23779.093,"end":23793.536,"text":"宣讀114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案有關預算目的內容請委員自行參閱第一款總統府主管3324萬6千元第一項總統府1583萬1千元第二項國家安全會議811億萬元第三項國史館533萬8千元第四項國史館台灣文獻館396萬7千元第二款行政院主管45億"},{"start":23804.199,"end":23832.242,"text":"七千三百九十六萬三千元第一項行政院九千六百零八萬九千元第二項主計總署一百九十四萬兩千元第三項人事行政總署四千一百二十八萬兩千元第四項公務人力發展學院八百五十一萬八千元第五項國立故宮博物院一億八千一百八十五萬三千元第六項國家發展委員會九十三萬六千元第七項檔案管理局一千三百二十六萬一千元第八項原住民組委員會二十四億七千五百三十七萬兩千元"},{"start":23833.789,"end":23855.415,"text":"第九項原住民族文化發展中心521萬元第十項客家委員會及所屬2734萬2千元第十一項中央選舉委員會及所屬15億5082萬4千元第十二項核能安全委員會及所屬100萬8千元第十三項公民交易委員會99萬2千元第十四項國家通訊傳播委員會4290萬4千元第十五項大陸委員會110647萬8千元"},{"start":23859.216,"end":23873.793,"text":"第十六項國家運輸安全調查委員會207萬8千元第十七項不當黨產處理委員會456萬2千元第十八項公共工程委員會1331萬2千元第三款立法院主管兩千八百二十二萬"},{"start":23875.818,"end":23892.077,"text":"兩千元第一項立法院兩千八百二十二萬兩千元第四款司法院主管四千九百八十四萬七千元第一項司法院七百八十五萬一千元第二項最高法院十九萬一千元第三項最高行政法院十三萬四千元第四項台北高等法院"},{"start":23892.657,"end":23913.868,"text":"台北高等行政法院19萬7千元第五項 台中高等行政法院19萬3千元第六項 高雄高等行政法院28萬4千元第七項 懲戒法院15萬4千元第八項 法官學院71萬3千元第九項 智慧財產及商業法院10萬1千元第十項 台灣高等法院215萬元"},{"start":23915.769,"end":23943.242,"text":"第11項 台灣高等法院台中分院103萬3千元第12項 台灣高等法院台南分院78萬6千元第13項 台灣高等法院高雄分院109萬8千元第14項 台灣高等法院花蓮分院116萬1千元第15項 台灣台北地方法院229萬元第16項 台灣士林地方法院126萬4千元第17項 台灣新北地方法院256萬7千元"},{"start":23945.023,"end":23968.801,"text":"第18項 台灣桃園地方法院287萬3千元第19項 台灣新竹地方法院109萬8千元第20項 台灣苗栗地方法院93萬1千元第21項 台灣台中地方法院270萬5千元第22項 台灣南投地方法院87萬1千元第23項 台灣中化地方法院291萬3千元第24項 台灣雲林地方法院90萬6千元第25項 台灣嘉義地方法院"},{"start":23969.321,"end":23986.773,"text":"一百二十八萬八千元第二十六項台灣台南地方法院二百五十萬七千元第二十七項台灣橋頭地方法院一百二十萬三千元第二十八項台灣高雄地方法院二百零八萬元第二十九項台灣屏東地方法院一百八十萬五千元第三十項台灣台東地方法院六百三萬七千元"},{"start":23987.213,"end":24016.572,"text":"第三十一項 台灣花蓮地方法院六十六萬五千元第三十二項 台灣宜蘭地方法院七十四萬五千元第三十三項 台灣基隆地方法院三百一十六萬八千元第三十四項 台灣澎湖地方法院二十四萬七千元第三十五項 台灣高雄少年及家事法院四十九萬兩千元第三十六項 福建高等法院金門分院二十三萬兩千元第三十七項 福建金門地方法院二十一萬一千元第三十八項 福建連江地方法院十萬三千元"},{"start":24018.089,"end":24031.518,"text":"第五款考試院主管352萬元第四項公務員保障及培訓委員會352萬元第六款監察院主管8629萬6千元第一項監察院7762萬6千元第二項審計部750萬7千元第三項審計部台北市審計處20萬4千元第四項審計部新北市審計處24萬5千元第五項審計部桃園市審計處"},{"start":24042.165,"end":24052.715,"text":"十三萬兩千元第六項審計部台中市審計處十六萬一千元第七項審計部台南市審計處二十一萬七千元第八項審計部高雄市審計處二十萬四千元"},{"start":24054.676,"end":24083.855,"text":"第七款 內政部主管 二十八億八千一百四十三萬七千元第一項 內政部 八億三千六百一十三萬三千元第二項 國土管理署級 所屬七億五千五百三十七萬三千元第三項 警政署級 所屬七億一千零六十二萬六千元第四項 中央警察大學 兩千四百零五萬五千元第五項 消防署級 所屬一億六千三百一十七萬三千元第六項 國家公園署級 所屬一億九千六百六十四萬八千元第七項 移民署級 所屬九千三百五十四萬八千元"},{"start":24084.435,"end":24104.866,"text":"第八項 建築研究所 一千七百二十二萬兩千元第九項 空中勤務總隊 八千四百六十五萬九千元第八款 外交部主管 二十一億一千萬八千元第一項 外交部 二十一億零八二八萬九千元第二項 領事事務局 七十四萬七千元第三項 外交及國際事務學院 九十七萬"},{"start":24106.007,"end":24108.508,"text":"第9款國防部主管第1項國防部所屬第10款財政部主管第1項財政部"},{"start":24127.095,"end":24131.419,"text":"負稅143萬1千元第四項 台北國稅局362萬6千元第五項 高雄國稅局283萬2千元第六項 北區國稅局所屬539萬6千元第七項 中區國稅局所屬450萬9千元"},{"start":24143.422,"end":24159.538,"text":"第八項 南區國稅局 即所屬四百零七萬一千元第九項 公務署 即所屬一千零八十六萬四千元第十項 國有財產署 即所屬三百八十八萬元第十一項 財政諮詢中心 五百二九萬八千元第十一款 教育部主管 五千一百一十七萬九千"},{"start":24161.1,"end":24166.866,"text":"第一項教育部2106萬6千元第二項國民級學情教育署1585萬6千元第三項體育署799萬3千元第四項青年發展署477萬元第五項國家圖書館10萬元第六項國立公共資訊圖書館10萬5千元第七項"},{"start":24179.315,"end":24202.498,"text":"國立教育廣播電台193,000元第八項國家教育研究院109萬6千元第十二款法務部主管4601萬1千元第一項法務部128萬9千元第二項司法官學院188,000元第三項法醫研究所356,000元第四項廉政署103萬4千元第五項矯正署及所屬372萬3千元第六項行政執行署"},{"start":24203.058,"end":24228.585,"text":"即所屬161萬6千元第七項最高檢查數60萬1千元第八項台灣高等檢查數116萬4千元第九項台灣高等檢查數台中檢查分數15萬3千元第十項台灣高等檢查數台南檢查分數14萬8千元第十一項台灣高等檢查數高雄檢查分數21萬4千元第十二項台灣高等檢查數花蓮檢查分數14萬8千元第十三項台灣高等檢查數智慧財產檢查分數2萬3千元"},{"start":24231.792,"end":24254.586,"text":"第十四項 臺灣台北地方檢查署237萬9千元第十五項 臺灣士林地方檢查署88萬6千元第十六項 臺灣新北地方檢查署113萬3千元第十七項 臺灣桃園地方檢查署170萬8千元第十八項 臺灣新竹地方檢查署84萬9千元第十九項 臺灣苗栗地方檢查署51萬元第20項 臺灣台中地方檢查署"},{"start":24257.848,"end":24279.054,"text":"一百三十萬七千元第二十一項台灣南投地方檢查署四十八萬四千元第二十二項台灣彰化地方檢查署七十二萬八千元第二十三項台灣雲林地方檢查署四十萬七千元第二十四項台灣嘉義地方檢查署六十四萬八千元第二十五項台灣台南地方檢查署一百二十五萬五千元第二十六項台灣橋頭地方檢查署"},{"start":24280.586,"end":24308.574,"text":"七十四萬九千元第二十七項台灣高雄地方檢查署九十九萬五千元第二十八項台灣屏東地方檢查署七十萬四千元第二十九項台灣台東地方檢查署二十九萬第三十項台灣花蓮地方檢查署三十一萬八千元第三十一項台灣宜蘭地方檢查署四十一萬一千元第三十二項台灣基隆地方檢查署三十八萬五千元第三十三項台灣澎湖地方檢查署二十二萬五千元第三十四項福建高等檢查金門"},{"start":24309.614,"end":24317.275,"text":"高等檢查署金門檢查分數126,000元第35項福建金門地方檢查署132,000元第36項福建連江地方檢查署103,000元第37項調查局862,200元第13款經濟部主管31億8178,000元第1項經濟部1億6245,900元第2項產業發展署6億7472,900元第3項國際貿易所261萬4千元"},{"start":24340.424,"end":24356.897,"text":"第四項標準檢驗局及所屬三千六百五十七萬一千元第五項智慧財產局五十二萬九千元第六項水利署及所屬十九億八千零五十四萬一千元第七項商業發展署一億零四百一十六萬八千元第八項中小及新創企業署八十二萬四千元第九項"},{"start":24358.538,"end":24386.158,"text":"產業園區管理局及所屬146萬5千元第十項地質調查及礦業管理中心1196萬3千元第十一項能源署3231萬5千元第十四款交通部主管2258萬4千元第一項交通部88萬9千元第二項民用航空局8萬元第三項中央氣場署54萬5千元第四項觀光署及所屬293萬2千元第五項運輸研究所53萬3千元第六項公務局及所"},{"start":24386.758,"end":24407.907,"text":"所屬一二六九萬九千元第七項鐵道局所屬一百四十九萬四千元第八項行港局三百四十一萬兩千元第十五款勞動部主管六千八百九十四萬八千元第一項勞動部二三一四萬兩千元第二項勞工保險局九十七萬兩千元第三項勞動力發展署及所屬"},{"start":24408.587,"end":24411.951,"text":"1624萬元第四項職業安全衛生署28042000元第五項勞動基金運用局61000元第六項勞動職業安全衛生研究所491000元"},{"start":24421.57,"end":24441.9,"text":"第十六款 農業部主管 十億九千四百三十萬六千元第一項 農業部 九千六百一十萬七千元第二項 林業局自然保育署及所屬 一億兩千四百六十萬元第三項 農業發展及水土保持署及所屬 三億七千八百二十八萬四千元第四項 農業試驗所及所屬 一千八百二十八萬三千元"},{"start":24443.38,"end":24449.283,"text":"第五項靈異試驗所1028萬1000元第六項水產試驗所940萬4000元第七項蓄產試驗所及所屬463萬5000元第八項獸醫研究所723萬3000元第九項農業藥物試驗所2046萬3000元第十項生物多樣性研究所247萬9000元第十一項茶集飲料作業改良廠59萬"},{"start":24465.43,"end":24483.227,"text":"三千元第十二項總苗改良繁殖場三百四十六萬七千元第十三項桃園區農業改良場三百三十萬兩千元第十四項苗栗區農業改良場二百二十八萬八千元第十五項台中區農業改良場五百七十三萬六千元第十六項台南區農業改良場四百六十六萬五千元"},{"start":24483.667,"end":24502.333,"text":"第十七項 高雄區農業改良廠 二百五十萬兩千元第十八項 花蓮區農業改良廠 二百二十二萬一千元第十九項 台東區農業改良廠 一百零七萬一千元第二十項 漁業暑期所屬 二六四九萬九千元第二十一項 動植物防疫檢疫暑期所屬 四五五三萬三千元第二十二項"},{"start":24504.314,"end":24520.344,"text":"農業金融局三十六案兩千元第二十三項農糧儲集所所二六四七萬七千元第二十四項農田水利所二億九四八一萬元第二十五項農業科技園區管理中心三百零一萬一千元第十七款衛生福利部主管四億一五九五五萬"},{"start":24521.994,"end":24541.492,"text":"五千元第一項衛生福利部一億六零四五萬五千元第二項疾病管制署一億五億零五萬四千元第三項食品藥物管理署六九六萬一千元第四項招商健健康保險署一億三二萬六千元第五項國民健康署七七二四萬七千元第六項社會及家庭署二零五萬"},{"start":24542.934,"end":24554.744,"text":"第7項國家中醫藥研究所685萬8千元第18款環境部主管1億6419萬3千元第1項環境部3890萬8千元第2項氣候變遷署1437萬2千元第3項資源循環署3585萬3千元第4項化學物質管理署5064萬4千元第5項環境管理署815萬5千元"},{"start":24569.062,"end":24578.025,"text":"第六項國家環境研究院1626萬1千元第十九項文化部主管2億8085萬8千元第一項文化部1億9821萬9千元第二項文化資產局1253萬9千元第三項影視"},{"start":24588.888,"end":24597.037,"text":"第三項影視及流行音樂產業局772萬2千元第四項國立傳統藝術中心1441萬4千元第五項國立台灣美術館及所屬1086萬8千元第六項國立台灣工藝研究發展中心"},{"start":24606.166,"end":24618.39,"text":"937萬3千元第7項國立台灣博物館510萬9千元第8項國立台灣史前文化博物館517萬元第9項國家人權博物館667萬8千元第10項國立台灣歷史博物館476萬3千元第11項國立台灣文學館600萬3千元第20款"},{"start":24623.291,"end":24632.636,"text":"數位發展部主管 12億7673萬元第一項 數位發展部 6億7055萬8千元第二項 資通安全署 52萬8千元第三項 數位產業署 6億0564萬4千元第二十一款 僑務委員會主管 37萬5千元第一項 僑務委員會 37萬5千元第二十二款 國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":24645.883,"end":24663.284,"text":"主管47467000元第一項國家科學及技術委員會481000元第二項新竹科學園區管理局1143000元第三項中部科學園區管理局871000元第四項南部科學園區管理局44972000元第二三款金融監督管理委員會主管517000元"},{"start":24665.7,"end":24682.729,"text":"第一項金融監督管理委員會六十八萬兩千元第二項銀行局五十六萬五千元第三項證券期貨局一百六十二萬一千元第四項保險局二十六萬五千元第五項檢查局一百八七萬四千元第二四款海洋委員會主管十五億零二百八十六萬元"},{"start":24684.42,"end":24699.555,"text":"第一項海洋委員會三千一百二十七萬八千元第二項海巡署及所屬十四億一千零七十一萬八千元第三項海洋保育署四千六百零一萬一千元第四項國家海洋研究院一千四百八十五萬三千元第二十五款國軍退出一關密輔導委員會主管"},{"start":24700.055,"end":24721.094,"text":"三千九百七十四萬九千元第一項國軍退出一關兵輔導委員會三千九百七十四萬九千元第二十六款直轄市及縣市政府六百三十六億零五百五十四萬七千元第一項直轄市及縣市一般性補助款六百三十六億零五百五十四萬七千元以上請參閱預算書第五十六至二百二十四頁"},{"start":24723.156,"end":24746.594,"text":"現在宣讀114年度中央政府最佳預算案的預算提案一114年度中央政府總預算媒體政策及業務宣導費簡列該項預算4億2906萬6千元提案委員王洪維等人第二案114年度最佳預算案刪減媒體政策及業務宣導費4億2906萬6千元提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":24751.677,"end":24775.109,"text":"第三案 總統府主管追加預算案總額三千三百二十四萬六千元預算全數刪除 天安委員翁曉琳等人第四案 總統府追加預算案國務支出向下三減一般行政五百萬元 天安委員 烏拉斯堡委員等人第五案 總統府追加預算案於第五幕新聞發布向下一百四十八萬六千元減列"},{"start":24778.148,"end":24792.752,"text":"148萬6千元提案委員劉許廷等人第六案國家安全會議追加預算案國務支出向下三檢諮詢研究業務100萬元提案委員賴世寶委員等人第七案行政院主管編列45億71396萬3千元刪除22億0570萬9千元提案委員翁曉琳等人"},{"start":24801.38,"end":24813.114,"text":"第八案 行政院追加預算案第一目 一般行政向下基本行政工作維持預算 檢列192萬1千元委員劉許廷等人提案第九案 行政編列追加預算案 行政支出向下施政及法治業務"},{"start":24815.057,"end":24841.063,"text":"三減五百萬元提案委員賴世寶等人第十案行政院追加預算案第四目聯合服務業務向下經費預算減列三千六百五十二萬六千元提案委員劉許廷等人第十一案行政院追加預算案第九目新聞傳播業務向下預算減列七百七十三萬七千元為劉許廷等人提案第十九案建請行政院對於詐欺犯"},{"start":24843.235,"end":24870.498,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防治條例修法進度會同相關單位全面盤點本條例中是否有相關條文上代經濟會總後提出書面報告委員張宏祿等人提案第十三案請主計總署會同教育部全序部三個月內針對退伏基金撥補情況提出報告並於編列一百一十六年預算時審慎評估十年之撥補方案之可行性委員吳麗華等人提案"},{"start":24872.423,"end":24899.762,"text":"114案 建請國立故宮博物院依補充庫房典藏罪人力書面報告所提多元方案因應提出具體規劃委員張雅玲等人提案第15案 區域排水多氧量附屬於道路自排水系統請國家發展委員會會同相關部會全面盤點上述區域明確劃分中央行政機關責任歸屬擬具精進排水措施與防災計畫提出書面報告委員鍾嘉斌等人提案"},{"start":24901.404,"end":24918.377,"text":"16案 原住民族追加預算案第一幕一般行政向下預算檢列508萬2000元委員牛許廷等人提案17案 原住民族委員會追加預算案第二幕綜合規劃發展向下預算檢列1030萬2000元委員牛許廷等人提案18案"},{"start":24919.798,"end":24927.401,"text":"中央選舉委員會及所屬第二幕選舉業務簡列15億4324萬2千元委員王宏威等人提案19案中央選舉委員會及所屬就家預算案向下選舉業務3-410281萬5千元委員賴世寶等人提案20案"},{"start":24940.747,"end":24967.895,"text":"双方选举委员会所属选举业务编列15亿4712万8千元冻结该项预算1%提案委员苏巧慧等人21案道路委员会编列最佳预算行政支出向下法政业务3减8千万元提案委员赖世保等人第22案道路委员会最佳预算案第4幕法政业务向下预算减列5880万1千元提案委员牛许婷等人"},{"start":24968.935,"end":24990.937,"text":"第二十三案 追加預算案 立法院主管 凍結該項預算二十萬元 提出書面報告後 使得動之委員黃珊珊等人提案二十四案 司法院主管 追加預算案 四千九百八十四萬七千元 全數刪除 提案委員翁曉琳等人第二十五案 追加預算案 司法院主管 凍結該項預算二十萬元 提出書面報告後 使得動之提案委員黃珊珊等人"},{"start":24992.698,"end":25021.678,"text":"26案考試院主管追加預算案352萬元全數刪除提案委員溫曉琳等人27案追加預算案考試院主管凍結該項預算5萬元提出書面報告後使得動之提案委員黃珊珊等人28案內政部主管追加預算案28億8143萬7千元全數刪除提案委員翁曉琳等人29案追加預算案內政部主管凍結該項預算20萬元提出書面報告後使得動之提案委員黃珊珊等人提案30案內政部追加預算案民政支出"},{"start":25023.219,"end":25042.856,"text":"三減六億元提案委員文賴世保委員等人第三十一案內政部追加預算第二幕民政及宗教理智業務向下預算減列一億元提案委員牛許廷等人三十二案內政部追加預算第三幕戶政業務向下預算減列一千四百零八萬七千元委員牛許廷等人提案"},{"start":25043.436,"end":25071.575,"text":"三十三案內部最佳預算案與第七目義政業務向下預算簡列一千零七十一萬三千元委員劉許廷等人提案三十四案國土管理署最佳預算案三減工業支出及交通支出一億元提案委員賴世寶等人三十五案國土管理署及所屬應將育有未成年身心障礙家屬之家庭納入經濟或社會弱勢身份別身份別之一以獲得居住協助提案委員黃潔等人"},{"start":25073.536,"end":25093.272,"text":"三十六案 國土署應研擬設宅需求登記平台之可行性開放所有符合資格之重註冊並詳細填具需求提案委員王潔等人三七 國土管理署及所屬社會住宅成都者應以加護實際的所得與財產狀況作為計劃計算基準"},{"start":25097.495,"end":25120.258,"text":"定定明確的分級收費規範並要求地方政府一體適用提案委員黃婕等人38案國土基金會同社會福利目的事業主管機關衛生福利部教育部勞動部等部會建立包租社宅成租者之社會福利社會服務機制提高弱勢族群之成租成功率"},{"start":25121.184,"end":25126.419,"text":"委員黃婕等人提案三九案國度署應積極管控相關工程之執行狀況"},{"start":25128.869,"end":25155.901,"text":"會同相關單位進行追蹤提出書面報告作為道路安全改善之重要參照委員張宏武等人提案40案警政署及所屬居家預算第6目刑事警察業務向下預算減列4,025萬5千元提案委員牛許廷等人41案內政部警政署於一個月內就基隆車站長期駐點警力配置可行性提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等人42案"},{"start":25157.914,"end":25170.816,"text":"請消防署要求各縣市政府並共同合作因依災害防救法 消防法等相關規定讓協助救難的在地人不再被排除在外委員伍麗華等人提案"},{"start":25173.135,"end":25200.333,"text":"四十三案 請內政部國家公務員署於三個月內提出書面報告針對禁止餵食動物及遊蕩犬貓一致計畫提出具體可行之執行方案委員長張雅玲等人提案四十四案 移民署追加預算案三檢入出國及移民署管理業務一千萬元提案委員賴世寶等人四十五案 外交部主管追加預算案二十一億一千萬八千元"},{"start":25202.074,"end":25204.823,"text":"全數刪除天安委翁小林等人"},{"start":25206.703,"end":25235.325,"text":"46案 外交部追加預算案三檢外交部支出9億元提案委員賴世寶等人47案 國防部追加預算案三檢國防政策規劃與督導327萬5千元提案委員馬文君等人48案 國防部追加預算案三檢國家軍事博物館設備採購所需經費3千萬元提案委員馬文君等人49案 國防部追加預算案三檢軍事行政預算"},{"start":25237.653,"end":25253.426,"text":"五百八十一萬元提案委員毛文君等人五十案國防部追加預算案三檢軍事行政一千九百五十七萬七千元委員毛文君等人提案五十一案國防部追加預算案三檢教育訓練業務"},{"start":25255.547,"end":25279.445,"text":"五百零四萬兩千元委員馬文君等人提案五十二案國防部追加預算案三檢教育訓練業務九千零六十三萬五千元提案委員馬文君等人五十三案國防部追加預算案三檢後勤及諮通1398萬7千元委員馬文君等人提案五十四案國防部追加預算案三檢"},{"start":25280.666,"end":25308.887,"text":"一般裝備706萬8千元 提案委員馬文金等人55案 國防部追加預算案 刪減一般裝備193萬1千元 提案委員馬文金等人56案 教育部主管追加預算5117萬9千元 全數刪除 提案委員翁曉琳等人57案 法務部主管追加預算案 4601萬1千元 全數刪除 提案委員翁曉琳等人58案 經濟部追加預算案 一般行政"},{"start":25310.468,"end":25325.858,"text":"簡列1500萬元委員陳昌明等人提案59案 產業發展署追加預算案科學支出向下簡列工業技術升級輔導2億元提案委員賴世寶等人60案 經濟部追加預算案工業技術升級輔導預算6億4819萬元"},{"start":25332.462,"end":25352.972,"text":"凍結30%提出專案報告經同意後 使得凍資委員陳超明等人提案61案經濟部標準檢驗局及所屬應加速辦理電度表之檢定避免檢定能量不足情形一再發生委員陳超明等人提案62案凍結水利署及所屬一般行政預算10萬元"},{"start":25354.656,"end":25371.719,"text":"提出專案報告經同意後始而動之委員陳金輝等人提案63案經濟部追加預算案水利建設及保育管理預算19億8千零11萬6千元凍結40%提出專案報告經同意後始而動之委員陳超明等人提案"},{"start":25372.199,"end":25387.589,"text":"六十四案經濟部追加預算案促進商業科技發展預算一億零一百六十三萬元凍結該項預算百分之十提出專案報告經同意後使得動之委員陳昌明等人提案六十五案經濟部追加預算案能源科技計劃"},{"start":25389.37,"end":25414.725,"text":"預算三千一百八十一萬兩千元凍結該預算百分之五提出專案報告經同意後始的動資委員陳超明等人提案六十六案交通部主管催加預算案總額兩千兩百五十八萬四千元全數刪除提案委員翁曉琳等人六十七案交通請交通部一個月內檢討台鐵車站保全人力配置改善計劃提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等人提案"},{"start":25415.385,"end":25429.021,"text":"六八案 勞動部主管 催加預算案 六八九四萬八千元全數三足 提案委員翁曉琳等人六九案 建請勞動部應針對原有假日優於我國法令規定之事業單位及產業加強宣導"},{"start":25431.86,"end":25444.323,"text":"已立事業單位法尊提案委員王振旭等人70案農業部主管追加預算案總額10億9430萬6千元全數刪除提案委員翁曉琳等人70案農業部追加預算案林業發展預算1億2433萬5千元凍結該預算10%提出專案報告經同意後使得動作委員陳超明等人提案72案請農業部全面盤點趙琳"},{"start":25458.766,"end":25471.745,"text":"地狀況研議針對平地造林不具木材生產生物棲地及景觀價值之區域做有效利用方案提出書面報告委員 宗嘉斌等人提案"},{"start":25473.197,"end":25495.971,"text":"七十三案 凍結農村發展及水土保持署及所屬一般行政預算五萬元提出專案報告經同意 使得動之委員陳金輝等人提案七十四案 農業部追加預算案 水土保持發展預算三億七千七百八十二萬元凍結該項預算百分之三十提出專案報告經同意後 使得動之委員陳超明等人提案"},{"start":25496.871,"end":25509.316,"text":"75案 農業部追加預算農糧管理預算26366000元凍結該項預算500萬元提出專案報告經同意後死的凍之委員陳超明等人提案76案 農業部追加預算農田水利事業作業基金預算240828000元凍結該項預算20%提出專案報告經同意後死的凍之委員陳超明等人提案77案 請農業部全面盤點位座"},{"start":25523.949,"end":25540.589,"text":"農田灌溉溝渠針對其女巨房災及清淤計畫提出素面報告委員鍾嘉斌等人提案七八案建井衛福部和健保署研議針對今年下半年新增日假日避免以挪動平日週間之給付預算或點數補假日"},{"start":25544.045,"end":25563.355,"text":"二是以最佳預算或動資調節非預期風險及其他預期政策所需經費項目新增或外交預算予以協助延長合理門診量之日數與人次數調整儘量避免造成門診及診所之衝擊影響提案委員王振旭等人"},{"start":25564.655,"end":25581.559,"text":"79案 衛生福利部數位資訊醫療制推動預算1760萬4千元凍結10%提出專報同意後 使得動之委員林秀 李燕秀等人提案82案 警衛福部機關屬於3個月內提出監測概況與預防機制報告"},{"start":25583.84,"end":25599.773,"text":"具體說明追加預算使用規劃及成效指標委員張雅玲等人提案八十一案請衛生福利部疾病管制署引以調升兒童常規疫苗接種處置費應建制疫苗冷鏈冷運配送至院所之機制"},{"start":25602.605,"end":25621.252,"text":"備維護良好疫苗品質委員李燕秀等人提案八十二案請衛生福利部及管署籌編預算研議逐步對經濟弱勢慢性病具慢性病史或特定年齡層族群提供公費帶狀炮診疫苗接種委員李燕秀等人提案"},{"start":25623.957,"end":25648.389,"text":"83 為確保穩定藥品供應解決要缺藥問題請衛生福利部提出改善作為之書面報告提案委員李燕秀等人84 衛生福利部衛生福利部中央健保署健保政策規劃與推展預算數340萬8千元凍結10%提出專報經同意後使得動之委員李燕秀等人提案85 衛生福利部建請"},{"start":25650.123,"end":25669.102,"text":"建保署會同疾管署研議建置全國性疫苗接種公版系統研議全國性疫苗接種公版系統建置之需求與具體時程規劃文王證據等人提案86案溝通及資訊署據之評估是否屬語言治療施法所稱溝通障礙"},{"start":25670.163,"end":25687.465,"text":"具輔助系統使用之評估之疑議請衛生福利部提出改善作文之書面報告委員李燕秀等人提案八七案文化部主管追加預算案兩億八千零八十五萬八千元全數三十五委員翁曉琳等人提案八十八案文化部"},{"start":25688.894,"end":25712.043,"text":"追加預算案1億9,821萬9千元凍結25%提出專案報告與改進執行內容預期成效經同意後使得動之委員林倩琦等人提案八九案文化部影視及流行音樂發展業務預算數1088萬凍結本預算10%提出改善報告經同意後使得動之委員郭玉琴等人提案"},{"start":25712.843,"end":25739.39,"text":"90案文化部向下人文文学及出版业务推展与辅导预算数3880万8千元冻结本笔预算10%提出具体改变报告经同意后使得动之委员归行等人提案91案文化部再加预算国家漫画博物馆筹备业务向下编列279万3千元冻结本笔预算10%提出具体报告经同意后使得动之委员归行等人提案"},{"start":25741.411,"end":25754.618,"text":"92案请文化部针对转型相关预算经费提出明确规划与进度说明行政院所述民主教育园区之执行政策具体方向文三阿林等人提案"},{"start":25756.098,"end":25777.134,"text":"93 案文資局應全面檢討文化資產普查與補助成果公開機制優先推動高齡或有失傳風險之傳統表演藝術數位保存確保文化資產的永續傳承與保存請文化部提出具體改善計畫書面報告文規型等人提案"},{"start":25779.035,"end":25797.232,"text":"94案工藝中心加速推動工藝資料庫資料校正與公開檢討並落實與觀光產業合作機制積極建立有效輔導機制以確保產業資源挹注效益請文化部提出具體改善支出面包文規型等人提案95案文化部影視及流行音樂產業局"},{"start":25800.905,"end":25829.409,"text":"追加預算數772萬2千元凍結25%文化部提出專案報告具體說明經同意後使得凍資委員林倩琦等人提案96案文化部國立台灣工藝研究發展中心追加預算數937萬3千元凍結25%文化部提出專案報告詳細說明經同意後使得凍資委員林倩琦等人提案"},{"start":25831.505,"end":25858.362,"text":"97案文化部國立台灣博物館追加預算510萬9千元凍結本預算25%是文化部提出專案報告去比說明經同意後使得動之委員林倩琦等人提案98案文化部國家人權博物館預算數667萬8千元凍結25%請文化部提出專案報告經同意後使得動之委員林倩琦等人提案99案文化部國立台灣歷史博物館預算數476萬3千元"},{"start":25862.626,"end":25871.905,"text":"凍結25%是文化部提出完整專案報告經同意後 使得凍資文雲建啟等人提案一百案文化部國立台灣文學館"},{"start":25873.652,"end":25892.371,"text":"追加預算案六百萬三千元凍結百分之二十五市文化部提出專案報告詳述經立法院同經同意後使得動之委員林倩琦等人提案一百零一案數位發展部追加預算案三減科學支出兩億元提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":25895.835,"end":25924.374,"text":"102案 數位發展部針對防堵不足 偵測延盪 通報不暢問題提出具體改善措施 提出完整解決方案保障民眾財產安全 委員320等人提案103案 數位發展部追加預算 數位產業署追加預算科學支出向下三減促進數位創新動能轉型升級2億元 委員賴世寶等人提案"},{"start":25926.414,"end":25941.159,"text":"104案起海洋委員會提出海巡無人艦艇籌建計畫以提升我國海巡勤艦增量能減少執法時風險保障我國海巡人員安全委員鍾嘉斌等人提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":26719.585,"end":26730.886,"text":"因為委員如果遇到翁小玲的案子就只好報告我們就是遇到檢驗案子這樣總共沒有多少錢有啦"},{"start":26733.392,"end":26746.543,"text":"我跟您講,因為你看嘛,中選會總共剛才15億,然後剛剛又有一個什麼外交部10億吧?沒有加一,外交部一這個你們要不要給他過?然後剛剛1.5億啊?應該1.7了啦,還有一個0.2的"},{"start":26758.591,"end":26773.963,"text":"要留的還是要刪的?要刪的15月要刪然後一個四億多的中選會然後一個四億多的媒體4.7然後其他的看業務會跟那個剛剛他們在講說他們有意見32億而已其他的就是"},{"start":26786.107,"end":26804.459,"text":"我跟你講 剛才誰跟我講你們亂嘴加一通 你們什麼物價調整亂寫一通你們掙的多少錢你們掙的多少錢都是國內旅費啊 要去體檢人辦你們做什麼那個判的什麼加薪什麼之類的不是我們 不是我們不是我們 我們是國內旅費"},{"start":26816.928,"end":26819.39,"text":"因為我們現在是要把行政程序設出來"},{"start":26834.825,"end":26841.911,"text":"剛才我噴的 謝啟大 謝啟大跟我說你們都他說你們都是用什麼物價調整的要刪多少 要刪多少"},{"start":26852.964,"end":26877.159,"text":"我們盡量不要再三六 三六 不能不三六你看 交通部這麼多我們只提兩千多萬 那是一定必要性兩千多萬 兩千多萬給一千萬就好了啦各局所加起來才兩千多萬你們原來就很多啦因為我們今年不被三六擋住所以我們迴避率只有百分之零點三百分之零點三 萬事盡量沒有不得不做的才拿出來"},{"start":26889.708,"end":26908.044,"text":"你可以讓我算多少 你要講嗎你增加多少不是 你最佳多少"},{"start":26912.506,"end":26937.833,"text":"那少個兩千萬吧可以吧留差旅費讓你們可以去執行業務就卡掉兩千萬吧卡掉兩千萬吧可以吧好啦就是留下那個司法院的三兩千萬喔三兩千萬那我們可以留個差不多兩千萬就已經一半了因為那個之前差旅費不得留用所以我們沒辦法用其他的錢以後我就可以讓你們自由流動"},{"start":26939.514,"end":26955.388,"text":"是司法院本院嗎?司法院本院嗎?全有啦 全部啦 全部啦他總共只有四千九百多萬 好吧來大林大林來大林來委員這樣的話會跟你的這個會有漢德喔沒關係 那個算黨團提案好了好不好算黨團提案好了對大林"},{"start":26970.361,"end":26982.41,"text":"請各位保持安靜好不好因為現在很重要要審查各部會的預算民進黨委員要不要請一下"},{"start":26999.349,"end":27015.412,"text":"好 過來了好 原則上我們就是主案處理主案處理主案處理看行政部門的意見行政部門可以接受我們就按時過去他不能接受我們就保留到晚上8點再來寫上好不好讓速度快一點好 我們開始看第一案來第一 第二 各位看一下第一 第二是我的就媒體的部分我們就媒體的部分"},{"start":27030.253,"end":27034.818,"text":"王威跟賴思寶的提案就是全山喔媒體是主管的行政部門哪個主管的主計長要不要講話 主計長我們四億兩千萬去不山啊"},{"start":27051.55,"end":27078.258,"text":"那個後面的 各位帥哥美女 我們就給他們開會好不好 請各位不要講話那個後面小聲一點 不然我們聽不到好嗎 趕快快速來請各位 因為這個很重要 各部位的預算所以請大家在裡面就不要講話除非是本席要求你發言 否則不要講話來 主席講一下我們媒體廣宣4億2千多萬全部不同意你們列"},{"start":27080.652,"end":27086.315,"text":"主席長要說幾句嗎主席長還是你同意我們刪沒問題啊 就照案第一個就照案通過嘛對 照案通過就刪了是不是到時候大包小啦大包小 大包小"},{"start":27103.089,"end":27130.088,"text":"因為像梅宣的部分像文化部它是當初是被全部刪減然後這個部分似乎也應該要給它有一個那個要有追加一個的一個那個數額啦那像其實以我們組總來講我們明年要辦五年一次的榮林普查那我們也必須要做梅宣那這都必須要做的所以有一些並不是說我們梅宣的部一定是有什麼"},{"start":27131.189,"end":27157.697,"text":"其他的一個用途或者怎樣過去的歷史使用這個沒宣費的那個比如說10年啊 10幾年9年給三立啊 95億啊民視95億就因為過去用得不好你們沒有問題你們這個單位比較比較尊潔開支啊對 因為我們一直都是這樣子而且我們明年才要辦5年一次的一個榮林普查這需要做宣導的 是這樣子"},{"start":27158.477,"end":27172.948,"text":"像文化部也是這樣我們也沒有全部刪到完這是追加的原來也有給本來就有原來也有給本來37.68那我現在提出追加請黃珊珊委員發言不發言各位我們用一個題目大家換人一次就好了好不好我們這樣子快第一案就保留好了好不好第一案就照案通過沒有 因為民進黨立委還沒到"},{"start":27188.359,"end":27212.487,"text":"對啊蛤就第一案就照案通過啊稍等一下我們尊重一下好了不用再三分鐘沒有進來我們就通過了對 好再三分鐘以內他不進來我們就通過了還是你們要方案黨團協商再來方案嘛還有協商嘛沒有關係啊好啦 第一案 第二案先通過好通過來 第二案"},{"start":27217.881,"end":27222.106,"text":"第三案翁小玲委員的總統府3000多萬"},{"start":27231.972,"end":27253.455,"text":"我這邊要先講一下因為這次的總統府所提出來的追加預算它基本上也不符合法律要件沒有什麼因為重大事故經費超過原來的法定預算所以我這邊認為說其實沒有必要要再同意他們的追加預算而且它裡面都是回編的多把當時大家刪除的又都回編起來"},{"start":27256.533,"end":27285.383,"text":"所以主席我是不是可以建議一下我們第一案第二案的部分是不是可以保留好 那個王正希委員你要不要對剛才的話講一下好 對不起剛剛剛好在忙一個事情那電梯也比較慢第一案跟第二案可不可以申請保留已經過了 已經過了不好意思沒有 等一下還有潮汐協商沒關係 還有潮汐協商沒關係 還有潮汐協商看主席怎麼幫忙才是一下我們剛剛已經通過了"},{"start":27286.826,"end":27312.334,"text":"沒有關係啦 我們保齡沒關係啦因為黨團協商晚上八點還可以再協商好啦 我們先保齡好 謝謝總統府這部分各位如果這樣子你們通通保齡我們就通通保齡那就沒什麼意思囉就是如果可以大家少刪一點然後你們可以接受這是最好的就不要票決了當然我們也希望少核污密喔你可以給刪多少啦核污密啊"},{"start":27313.939,"end":27320.137,"text":"何志偉鋪民署長你可以讓我們刪多少 因為他要刪三千多萬你可以刪多少嘛快點啦 你快點"},{"start":27324.095,"end":27350.445,"text":"非常感謝委員提出的這些預算我了解我也完全清楚是否可以就刪一百萬就好再拜託不可能的事情第一個就是你們如果真的錢不夠你們也可以動用第二預備金你們自己本身有第一預備金所以我就說這根本不符合預算法的法定要件追加預算的法定要件對所以沒有什麼這個什麼要什麼三減只三減一百萬"},{"start":27351.545,"end":27364.21,"text":"更何況你們現在的114年的總預算還在申請釋憲當中按照賴總統的邏輯這個預算根本不應該執行更何況說你們還來申請追加預算這是完全"},{"start":27368.175,"end":27374.16,"text":"來啦 這樣子啦 在視線就不能編預算對不對允許志偉跟翁委員報告一下這樣講不完啦 那個如果你們覺得不能刪的話就保留啦 如果不能刪就保留啦這是2月11號的時候 大院跟韓院長的善意他當時候說叫我們來追加這些預算"},{"start":27390.894,"end":27404.22,"text":"那後來我們就來追加了那所以呢跟委員報告一下剛剛您也很kind很nice跟我們說我們還有洞2如果說今天可以追加我們就追加我們就會把洞2把它撤回申請"},{"start":27407.662,"end":27432.347,"text":"陳院長的追加預算意思是說你們就不要再去申請釋憲了現在你們是114年的中央政府總預算還在釋憲而且大法官已經受理了這跟你這個軍人待遇條例加給的這個部分你們只是申請釋憲大法官還沒有受理你們都敢不編預算更何況你們今天來搞這個追加預算坦白說我都認為說今天我們來審追加預算也是違憲啊也是違法啊"},{"start":27434.226,"end":27445.81,"text":"按照那個邏輯嘛對 只有少部分的案子基本上可能還合法你們現在全部都是違法這個沒有如果我們做一個妥協刪一千萬怎麼樣可以嗎就不干涉就不干涉好 那就保留吧那每個案子都保留了好 這個就保留了好 第四案"},{"start":27459.707,"end":27475.752,"text":"第四案過了第四案的一般行政三一百萬科目自行調整他們同意了第四案第五案第五案就大包小了嘛第五案怎麼樣我前面是全三"},{"start":27485.476,"end":27492.46,"text":"報告 召委 第五案剛剛跟總統府複密溝通過 刪除一半已經雙方達成共識 74萬3千好 我們74萬3千好 謝謝委員 謝謝大院支持 謝謝好 我們第六案"},{"start":27511.227,"end":27520.2,"text":"報告主席 第六案 金額我們同意主席的指導 科目可以調整第六案 一二都如此了一百萬 一百萬 好第七案 翁委員的"},{"start":27526.724,"end":27540.951,"text":"我還是同樣的理由基本上這個行政院所提出來的第七案就保留啦主席我是不是可以講一下因為第七案的話他不要講了就第七案保留啦保留啦好不好第七案保留因為其他委員有意見第八案 劉衛恆這裡咧我們希望把檢列192萬1千元的部分改成將特資費187萬9千元全數檢列以上"},{"start":27556.001,"end":27557.842,"text":"特資費多少錢可以嗎 我問一下行政院 啊 同意啊那我們改簡列特資費187萬9千元 全數簡列 好 謝謝好 第九案 來第九案是不是是召委的 我們300萬 減300萬減300萬可以啦 減300萬可以 好"},{"start":27582.563,"end":27610.793,"text":"謝謝張委員可不可以自己調整喔好 第十案第十案是留中心我們是不是可以劉委員的同意嗎減個十分之一可以嗎十分之一嗎對保留十分之一嗎好 可以減十分之一啦我以為你講留十分之一耶等一下 等一下 等一下第十案耶第十案啊第十案是那些什麼服務中心的錢耶對啊 我本來動議是全三啊對啊 本來就是全三啊這是服務中心那些"},{"start":27611.813,"end":27635.586,"text":"酬庸的那個用人耶當然啦 再給你一次機會啦這幾年都快用完了啊跟委員報告因為那個還有租金現在都還欠著不是可以拿走你就列租金進來你怎麼可以全部再列回來呢不是啊 就是在這裡面啦這也不是符合什麼重大事故啊你們就動用第二預備金就好為什麼要追加運算你們第二預備金目前還有五十幾億六十億都還沒有用耶"},{"start":27636.448,"end":27648.139,"text":"好 等一下我先插一句各位如果你們沒有案子在這裡的首長可以離開 好不好你們可以離開 就是沒有案子在這裡面的可以離開有案子在這裡面的要留下來"},{"start":27651.837,"end":27672.586,"text":"謝謝我們還是要以正式聽啦第二預備金的使用是原預算科目未編列的科目這個是有的科目被刪減那有的科目被刪減你要用沒有編科目的第二預備來自印這個是有所 語法上有所不當那如果你們認為要刪減有爭議那就保留嘛"},{"start":27674.912,"end":27699.497,"text":"不是 去年省今年的預算為什麼還會有租金沒有給你們錢 你們怎麼繼續租房子怎麼可以欠 沒有給你們錢 你們可以繼續租房子我們尊重天安委機關在那裡你沒有繳房租 房東沒有趕出你沒有趕出你就不行了那你就要離開撤開啊我們沒給預算你還繼續留在那裡所以你希望這些行政院的副總統關門"},{"start":27701.298,"end":27705.321,"text":"不是沒有衛生紙嗎這樣啦你租金水電一些基本的硬體運作我保留30%給你啦剩下30%"},{"start":27723.678,"end":27742.832,"text":"好 各位先不要講話好不好 拜託各位拜託各位在在本會議室裡面除非本席請你發言 否則請不要講話如果要講話請到外面去喔 請到外面去跟業務沒有關係的首長可以離開了喔我要講一遍喔聯合服務業務減劣70%"},{"start":27752.782,"end":27768.298,"text":"張文通過 好 11案 劉慧妍的檢列700多案 可以嗎 那個秘書長不是 他等於是全三了 是不是保留一些給我們做政策上的檢一半啦 可以嗎 可以檢一半啦 可以嗎 好 檢一半 來好啦 尊重張偉啦新聞傳播業務檢一半啦 檢50%"},{"start":27778.783,"end":27803.365,"text":"第十二案 張宏祿委員的主決議我們遵照辦理遵照辦理通過第十三案 主計總署的主決議主席我們遵照辦理遵照辦理十四案故宮的我再講一遍了 拜託各位啊拜託各位在這裡室內不要講話好不好"},{"start":27806.75,"end":27811.014,"text":"十四案 來來 報告主席 遵照辦理遵照辦理十五案修正後通過 因為他有修正條文喔報告主席 十五案已經溝通過了遵照辦理你不要講話了喔第十六案 牛丸的檢列五百零八案"},{"start":27826.724,"end":27845.031,"text":"我跟召委報告一下這案子早上質詢有提啦因為他那個法制作業都還沒完成啦我跟園民會承諾啦你要增加緣額我們都支持但從明年度的預算我們就會支持但你今年沒辦法執行編也白編好啦今年就不要啦好 召案通過第16案召案通過第17案來 牛委員請繼續講"},{"start":27846.991,"end":27855.936,"text":"17案的部分也是一樣原民會有把一些比較細的可以執行的項目有做報告那合計的數據是274萬8千元那我們就按照這些項目來通過保留274萬8千元 其餘簡列保留274274萬8274.8萬保留其餘簡列17案"},{"start":27874.77,"end":27878.893,"text":"減裂1700多萬不是不是第17案是減裂1755.2萬減裂1700多萬多少我再講一遍喔第17案"},{"start":27905.606,"end":27907.349,"text":"檢列1755萬4000元1755.4元好第18案來18案對不起"},{"start":27920.902,"end":27931.044,"text":"中選會 全數三選18案是不是我說明一下不要說明了 18案保留喔各位我們爭取時間 19案19案 併入18案保留 併入18案好 20案 撤案他已經撤完了 21案"},{"start":27947.61,"end":27964.695,"text":"21號陸委會這裡是 委員陸委會這裡要不要講話來是可以讓我算多少來是 報告委員我們還是讓海基會針對台商陸配陸生做點事是不是我們依照牛委員的一些提議來通過"},{"start":27967.972,"end":27988.159,"text":"就是牛委員在二十二案有檢列這個五千八百八十萬檢列五八八零萬一千元是可以二十一跟二十二合併了就是這三個都是入委會就用二十二案就對了是不是對啦二十一跟二十二合併了二一二二就合併變二十二"},{"start":27991.068,"end":28000.938,"text":"好 21 跟 22 合併減列 5880.1應該以 22 萬為主啦 應該就以 22 萬沒錯23萬23萬 各位立法院主管的我們組決議 通過好不好組決議通過了 24 案"},{"start":28014.878,"end":28040.078,"text":"司法院那個希望能夠保留各法院體檢人犯到法院來開庭的差旅費可以檢列多少講一下吧你可以給我們檢列多少你們差旅費多少呢可以算多少差旅費全部是三千六百七三千六百七千五萬五千三一千萬好不好三一千萬啦可以可以啦三一千萬好不好好就三一千萬"},{"start":28041.076,"end":28057.79,"text":"主席 聽起來剛剛23案是修正後通過吧這要限於就是說是用你剛剛講說什麼提檢犯人的那個費就是要把那個理由幫我再補充上去 寫清楚這樣聽懂嗎那個用途指定用途然後減一千萬就這樣用途寫清楚 然後減一千萬就這樣"},{"start":28070.04,"end":28075.368,"text":"25萬各位25萬同意同意動情20萬26萬來"},{"start":28080.899,"end":28096.282,"text":"考試院的報告委員這個部分我們是因為保障法通過增加的業務支出那有跟翁委員報告過了對是 我同意因為他們那個因為那個什麼法案通過之後增加人數所以簡單來說就簡列48萬對 簡列48萬26案簡列48萬27案黃委員的27案同意同意 同意來28案來"},{"start":28110.986,"end":28121.292,"text":"同樣的道理就是內政部基本上沒有理由來提追加率28萬我們就保留啦28萬保留29萬通過改組決議通過30案檢列6億內政部的在這邊希望能夠保留或是檢列3億就好了"},{"start":28134.574,"end":28150.62,"text":"一半 再加一個啦 剪裂4億我給你通過啦 剪裂4億剪裂4億 那就是剩2億是嗎好 同意那這次是包在一起喔 報告賴昭偉好 30案剪裂4億喔對 30到33是包在一包的剛剛33都是剪裂4億啦好 34 來"},{"start":28162.14,"end":28182.605,"text":"國土署的 各位不要講話喔 各位不要講話喔報告 報告 趙偉是這樣啦 因為這一億都地方補助款喔可不可以少砍一點 因為都是要給地方 地方也很需要這樣六千好不好那劉委員 我剛有跟委員 趙偉再報告一下六千萬好不好 劉委員同意是不是好 六千萬來 好 34 34 35都是六千萬了喔 34了喔"},{"start":28189.878,"end":28200.561,"text":"報告召委剛剛你講的那個簡略示意 科目自行調整可以 35案 主決議 通過來36案通過 37案 國土署的主決議剛剛說過了 通過 38案 文字修正通過39案 照案通過 40案"},{"start":28220.546,"end":28246.44,"text":"警政署的那個媒體宣導的部分那個我跟召委報告一下這個案子我們之前在審預算的時候因為要先看影片的品質所以凍結了一部分當然就影響了後續的期程嘛那麼相對來講他在媒體脫波的預算當然就沒有要用那麼多所以當初就減列了四千萬其實也經過警政署的同意那麼這一次再提追加我覺得蠻奇怪那跟警政署通"},{"start":28247.481,"end":28265.418,"text":"通過化之後 他們也說在這麼短的時間內你要再增加重新招標可能會有持續的問題啦所以召喚通過啦召喚通過啦喔召喚通過 因為這檢視署同意但是他有一個25萬5千元跟他的差略那些有關係我覺得這個可以保留來 檢列4千萬 好不好好啦 同意好 謝謝組長 謝謝檢列4千"},{"start":28272.446,"end":28296.121,"text":"刑事警察第40案 有關於刑事警察業務 檢列4000萬 科目自行調整41案 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過了喔 主決議通過"},{"start":28297.639,"end":28324.006,"text":"一千萬喔 通過 這已經通過通過了 一千萬對不起 那個戴昭偉 我們跟您協商你是寫五百 五百萬一千 我不是寫一千欸沒有沒有 你有簽名了在這邊 在這邊因為我這裡改一千欸沒有沒有 科目字型調整五百然後文字修正 在這裡 來 趕快給他看好啦好啦 五百啦 五百啦好 謝謝"},{"start":28325.882,"end":28352.535,"text":"好啦 五百好 四十四案 五百啦 五百萬柯文智請調整各位請肅靜好不好 請肅靜我們 或者沒辦法處理好 四十五案保留啦 因為四十五案保留因為這個錢這麼多 他們不會保留的四十五案 外交部那個牽涉到我們中華民國外交官的內外 沒關係 保留啦 保留啦不要說明了 沒關係那個四十六案"},{"start":28354.99,"end":28372.564,"text":"9億要保留是不是還是同意保留保留還是46你們要不然砍2億好不好砍4億啦我給你通過可以嗎4億還給你5億3億3億3億拜託啦直接中華民國啦中華民國的外交官啦3億啦"},{"start":28381.172,"end":28406.932,"text":"好啦 46簡列三例啦可不可以自己調整好啦主席併45好不好 46應該跟45是一樣的46跟45是一樣的 我們要交不不一樣不一樣不一樣 45不一樣欸 不要不要好啦 47 47啦 47好 謝謝主席47300多萬 國防部的來300多 啊 主席好 來3減3減327萬5千元"},{"start":28411.871,"end":28436.19,"text":"不是跟委員協商過要撤案嗎327萬5千元我們有協商的好像部長並不同意所以我們就全部通過刪減我們全刪因為我們原來協商的並沒有按照協商那我們就全刪 保留那顧部長啊你們協商沒有談好先保留一下好不好先保留一下 趕快去說我們協商的部分是哪一個部分沒有同意"},{"start":28437.099,"end":28450.815,"text":"你們沒有同意啊 你們都不同意啊所以50跟52我們本來協商大概只有三筆嘛那現在如果說通通要推翻那我們就全部保留 全部都要刪就47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55這幾個案子我們全刪"},{"start":28459.609,"end":28479.538,"text":"我們就按照我們的提案刪除好不好我們沒有按照我們協商的那個部長啊 你先跟私底下跟馬文講現在從47到第幾案啊47到55先保留好不好47到55先保留 等一下走第二輪你們趕快私底下協商好不好"},{"start":28481.28,"end":28488.585,"text":"47到55我們先保留 趕快去協商協商各位拜託大家肅靜 拜託大家肅靜56"},{"start":28494.301,"end":28516.163,"text":"五十六岸教育部主管的五十六岸教育部主管的同樣的他基本上也都是回編所以呢這基本上並不是屬於符合最佳預算的要件所以在這邊的話建議就全山五十六岸教育部長可以同意嗎主席是我們這一個山一圈然後項目由我們自行來調整可以嗎 歐委員"},{"start":28518.748,"end":28545.787,"text":"三兩千好了啦三兩千啦三四千啦因為我根本認為沒有必要啦所以就是要的話就是沒有啦我我我三兩千科目自行調整啦好不好要這樣子啦好啦三兩千科目自行調整很好啦這很好來來五十七案五十七案法務部的來曾部長可以嗎四千六是不是可以減得一千萬科目自行減得兩千萬啦減得兩千萬好啦好"},{"start":28548.325,"end":28560.153,"text":"有保護部的錢其實也是很多 現在都是追加也是你們本來就已經在你們的這個迴避好了可以了 2000元可以了 2000元可以了柯木我們自行調整 柯木自行調整好啦好啦 柯木自行調整喔好 58案 58案我們修正通過喔59案"},{"start":28573.211,"end":28590.905,"text":"產業發展署跟委員報告是不是這個部分我們可以給我們一千萬因為這個都是給傳統產業跟中老企業的輔導五十九萬喔三五千萬啦兩億三五千萬啦好不好可不可以自己調整五千萬啦好 謝謝錢五千萬啦"},{"start":28592.335,"end":28619.594,"text":"好可不可以自己調整來60案來60案已經有改主決議了主決議通過61案主決議通過61案遵照辦理62案主決議通過拜託各位拜託各位在這裡面不要講話比手畫腳不要講話請你們出去好不好那個不是在裡面的長官就出去好不好"},{"start":28624.538,"end":28637.666,"text":"你們如果還有聲音我們就不處理囉拜託各位 拜託各位不要講話在裡面要講話請出去講話喔包括樓上的不要講話樓上的62案主決議通過63案主決議通過64案"},{"start":28650.58,"end":28670.045,"text":"主決議通過65萬A 主決議通過66萬交通部主管的三兩千多萬而已 可以嗎報告 報告委員我們有幾個案子齁 要拜託幫忙報告不不不 你就直接講這個就好了 多少 講一下 給你減354萬拜託讓我們減354萬啦給你不用講不用講 給你1893萬"},{"start":28685.215,"end":28699.067,"text":"這個就公路局的部分1269萬9千 航港局的部分341萬2千 公安署及所屬有293萬2千這給你們其他三組好不好好 好 好 同意我再講一遍啦 來"},{"start":28699.827,"end":28710.033,"text":"我再講一遍 公路局所屬1269萬9香港局第66案 341萬2千元觀光署級所屬293.2千元1萬全數刪除 刪除沒有多少錢了啦因為這個加起來就 總共是1893萬2千元對啦 189幾 所以 到只有3百萬而已啦好 謝謝 通過了 通過了部長可以嗎"},{"start":28729.86,"end":28736.688,"text":"這個陳學霸對你太好了67案遵照辦理67案遵照辦理好 67案遵照辦理"},{"start":28749.545,"end":28774.706,"text":"六十八案六十八案也是建議全部刪除六十八案 洪部長怎麼樣 要刪多少快點啦 你們快點不是 你們已經很多錢了啦 也不符合這個法定洪委員 這個錢主要是給工會很多給工會的勞教或者是服務勞工的這些約顧人員的薪資我們是希望真的不要全部刪除好不好那至少一半好不好"},{"start":28777.575,"end":28788.484,"text":"三四千萬好不好原來勞動部的預稅就已經非常之高了三千五這是很高的錢了你們本來能達到的預算現在就很高你們現在很有追加預算可以啦還是有啦 三千五啦 撿三千五撿三千五撿三千五可以啦 撿三千五撿三千五喔 六十八萬科目自行調整啦好 六十九萬"},{"start":28806.161,"end":28806.322,"text":"呃 遵照辦理 72"},{"start":28810.903,"end":28836.572,"text":"70岸是農業部的部分剛才有跟翁委員討論因為我們的10.9億裡面將近有8.17億是針對於有關於土石流防災跟邊坡防災的這些建設的設備費跟相關的委辦的部分你告訴我答案就好了好不好這個部分剛才委員但是我們還有一些事務費的部分我們剛剛講了基本上就簡列1億800萬"},{"start":28838.753,"end":28862.468,"text":"可不可以剪裂1億8百萬然後其他科目進行調整可以可以可以剪裂1億8百萬部長我有意見那個主席農業農業的東西今天一定放水的啦那個賴小姐她已經放水了啦我們那裡剛剛已經講了嘛對不對已經放水了已經放水了算都算出來了不要浪費大家時間了啦就剪裂1億8百萬1億8百萬啦已經放水了啦不要再講了啦"},{"start":28864.218,"end":28891.246,"text":"已經放水了 真的放水了十億變成一億多 你這樣七十億要決議通過我們科目進行調整嘛有一部分科目進行調整已經過了就好了一億零八百萬你們是指定用途我剛剛講說只能用在設備費用啊對 剛才算的部分是八億一千多萬嘛所以應該要刪掉只能用成設備費你們不要拿去給我做什麼宣傳費啊我不會去拿去宣傳費因為"},{"start":28892.546,"end":28905.335,"text":"扣掉這兩個的話應該是兩億多但你剛才說一億多那其他的部分因為我們還有一般事務費的部分那現在很多現勘的部分需要一些費用稅就是科部自己調整你不要再講了現在都給你放水了你還講他同意砍兩億我就給他砍一億不要再講了就這樣子通過了72案來主決議通過73案主決議通過"},{"start":28921.322,"end":28939.611,"text":"74案 阻絕役 通過75案 撤案了 好 76案 阻絕役 遵照辦理遵照辦理 77案 阻絕役 遵照辦理78案 來 衛福部的 也是阻絕役的78案 遵照辦理 好 79案"},{"start":28943.054,"end":28969.51,"text":"主決議 遵照辦理 八十案遵照辦理 八十一案遵照辦理 八十二案遵照辦理 八十三案遵照辦理 八十四案改成主決議遵照辦理 八十五案文字修正 主決議文字修正遵照辦理 八十六案遵照辦理 八十七案謝謝文化部建議保留"},{"start":28971.144,"end":28999.005,"text":"87案保留對88案針對提案已經說明林委員不再堅持各位各位長官我跟你們報告一下林委員有不再堅持嗎他有跟你們討論過了嗎這個案我有一起提案有有那個主席我們事先有溝通88案針對提案已經說明了不再堅持對呀我一起提案對呀我80"},{"start":29000.66,"end":29000.821,"text":"8787我們建議保留"},{"start":29007.362,"end":29034.801,"text":"這個 我跟各位長官報告喔李部長 聽好喔 李部長保留到院會去表決你們是多多沒有喔能夠在這裡解決能夠說服委員同意你們是最好的比如他刪多少你給他少刪一點這是最好的答案到院會去表決你們什麼都沒有我先跟你們講就跟你們提醒 提醒這樣子就跟你們提醒這一點喔不要都一直保留一直保留對你們不見得好喔"},{"start":29035.621,"end":29048.469,"text":"保留結果就是沒有因為87案 翁曉琳委員建議全三全三所以我建議保留全三就保留啊因為她已經全三所以我建議保留88案88案針對提案已經說明委員不再堅持我連署她凍結而已啦 凍結可以啦"},{"start":29062.343,"end":29068.209,"text":"凍結可以啦 凍結可以啦凍結說明而已啦到時候來說明而已啦你們不要不要 這個都他本來應該是要刪減的啦凍結 你要很高興啦不要練那筆啦 這個好不好"},{"start":29077.009,"end":29097.648,"text":"凍結沒有 我這裡做一個裁示好不好凍結百分之十啦 改百分之十啦 好不好凍結百分之十喔 89案改成主決議 主決議通過啊 90案 改成主決議通過 91案 改成主決議通過 92案 存照辦理 93案 存照辦理"},{"start":29101.431,"end":29114.559,"text":"94案 存照辦理95案 也是因為已經跟提案說明不再堅持凍結10%啦好不好 改成10%好 96案也凍結10%啦 凍結都是10%啦喔97案 凍結10% 98案 凍結10% 99案 凍結10%100案 凍結10% 101案 抒發不得"},{"start":29130.037,"end":29140.644,"text":"剪列1啦 我剪列1啦 就這樣子啦齁好 同意齁 剪列1科目自行調整齁1001案 剪列1 科目自行調整102案準決議 準在辦理103案 剪列1科目自行調整好104案"},{"start":29156.707,"end":29181.234,"text":"主決議 文智修正遵照辦理好 我們就結束了喔104 總統府的 回到總統府那個國防部長 顧部長啊 顧部長你跟馬委員提那個有四十幾案到五十幾案的四十七到五十五不好意思 我剛剛這邊有一個錯誤在第七十案"},{"start":29182.672,"end":29184.833,"text":"對 其實應該是要減列2億7669萬6千好對 跟農業部剛剛有討論過了剛剛的數字是錯的所以是減列2億7669萬6千2.7699對 2.76692.7669還有6千元2億7669萬6千"},{"start":29212.926,"end":29235.485,"text":"兩億七千六百六十九兩億七千六百六十九萬六千元好 解決好 各位還有 哪裡總統府的 結束 總統府的"},{"start":29239.722,"end":29266.854,"text":"來 國防部長 顧部長跟馬雲談得怎麼樣好 那就全面保留了保留到晚上8點你要來喔 你要來 17到55萬全部保留因為跟委員還沒談好好 各位我們現在這一局的協商就到此"},{"start":29269.158,"end":29272.559,"text":"國防部47到55全數保留我們請先讀協商結論來先讀協商結論第一案保留第二案保留"},{"start":29296.027,"end":29314.289,"text":"宣讀協商結論第一案保留第二案保留第三案保留第四案改檢列100萬元科目字型調整第五案改檢列74萬3千元第六案檢列100萬元科目字型調整第七案保留"},{"start":29315.45,"end":29344.589,"text":"第八案改檢列特資費一百八十七萬九千元第九案檢列施政及法治業務三百萬元科目自行調整第十案檢列聯合服務業務百分之七十科目自行調整第十一案檢列新聞傳播業務百分之五十第十二案第十三案第十四案照案通過第十五"},{"start":29346.041,"end":29365.869,"text":"沒有15還沒念第15案修正通過第16案照案通過第17案簡列綜合規劃發展1755萬4千元第18案保留第19案保留20案撤案第21案22案合併處理法證業務簡列5880萬1千元"},{"start":29372.012,"end":29388.926,"text":"第23案修正通過改為主決議第24案司法院主管檢列1000萬元科目自行調整第25案照案通過第26案檢列"},{"start":29390.902,"end":29417.294,"text":"考試院主管48萬元科目自行調整第27案照案通過第28案保留第29案修正通過改為主決議第30案到33案併案處理簡列民政支出4億元科目自行調整第34案簡列工業支出及交通支出6千萬元"},{"start":29419.164,"end":29444.241,"text":"第35案修正通過第36案修正通過第37案照案通過第38案修正通過第39案照案通過第40案簡列刑事警察業務4000萬元科目自行調整第41案42案43案照案通過第44案簡列入出國籍移民署"},{"start":29445.021,"end":29467.935,"text":"局移民管理業務500萬元科目自行調整第45案保留第46案簡列外交支出3億元科目自行調整第47案至55案均保留第56案簡列教育部主管2000萬元科目自行調整第57案簡列法務部"},{"start":29469.076,"end":29486.588,"text":"主管兩千萬元科目自行調整第五十八案修正通過改為主決議第五十九案簡列工業技術升級輔導五千萬元科目自行調整第六十案修正通過改為主決議第六十一案照案通過"},{"start":29487.529,"end":29508.106,"text":"第62案修正通過改為主決議第63案修正通過改為主決議第64案修正通過改為主決議第65案修正通過改為主決議第66案除公路局即所屬1269萬9千元航港局341萬2千元觀光署即所屬293萬2千元外其餘均檢列"},{"start":29518.055,"end":29540.84,"text":"第67案照案通過第68案勞動部主管減列3500萬元科目自行調整第69案照案通過第70案減列農業部主管2億70案還是回到1億"},{"start":29552.196,"end":29567.827,"text":"農業部主管先簡列兩億七千六百六十九萬六千元第七十一案修正通過改為主決議第七十二案照案通過第七十三案七十四案修正通過均改為主決議第七十五案測案"},{"start":29569.048,"end":29595.774,"text":"第76案修正通過改為主決議第77案修正通過第78案照案通過第79案修正通過改為主決議第80案到83案均照案通過第84案修正通過改為主決議第85案修正通過第86案照案通過第87案保留第88案修正凍結10%"},{"start":29598.632,"end":29611.996,"text":"第89案到91案修正通過均改為主決議第92案到94案均照案通過第95案到100案均改為凍結10%95案到100案均改為凍結10%對不對"},{"start":29620.97,"end":29633.517,"text":"第101案檢列1億元科目自行調整第102案招案通過第103案檢列1億元科目自行調整第104案修正通過 宣讀完畢好 報告委員會我們有一個修正啦因為第70案檢列1億800萬科目自行調整但是不可以用在宣傳會方面"},{"start":29650.408,"end":29678.155,"text":"這個做這樣的求證70案好 各位對以上所宣讀的有異議沒有異議我們就照協商結論通過那今天的會議到此好 報告委員會本次會議做以下的決議說明及巡打完畢"},{"start":29679.724,"end":29707.239,"text":"第二 委員質詢未及答覆後請補充資訊的請相關部會在一周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從其所定委員林玉璟 盧憲一 高津素美陳樹悅 羅美玲 沈發慧蔡其昌 魯明哲 許巧欣呂玉玲 邱志偉 林益君沈博洋 林黛樺 邱奕穎 尤浩 許欣怡"},{"start":29708.34,"end":29728.475,"text":"王定宇 武力華 林淑芬 張家俊 陳昌明 邱振軍 廖偉祥所提的書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆審查中華民國114年中央政府總預算追加預算案除照協商結論通過後外"},{"start":29730.496,"end":29755.538,"text":"各款項簡列的業務計畫項目或工作計畫結束而且未指定項目者科目授權機關原往例自行調整其餘部分均照列有關稅儲正式別預算水桶以上機關別審查結果調整請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議"},{"start":29757.279,"end":29781.92,"text":"沒有異議我們通過報告委員會中華民國114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案含機密部分審查完畢你據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論的時候有本席補充所以我們請問各位委員對以上局議有異議沒有我們通過"},{"start":29783.717,"end":29807.927,"text":"那本次聯席會議議事錄授權由本席核定後確定各位委員有無異議沒有異議我們通過本次會議議程進行完畢倘若有不在場委員提議不提書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理最後一點我加的晚上八點"},{"start":29809.587,"end":29817.33,"text":"各位長官啦你們各單位的晚上八點要來因為八點是黨團的協商會地點在哪裡啊原則上302啦到時候等開會通知喔"},{"start":29826.912,"end":29852.11,"text":"晚上8點晚上8點由韓國瑜院長主持黨團協商會議現在今天各位看到的只是委員的提案現在還有黨團的提案還沒進來所以各位先不要高興喔先不要高興還有後面一大塊黨團的提案黨團提案進來然後韓院長來主持協商好那麼散會 謝謝"},{"start":29874.205,"end":29878.547,"text":"慢一點"}]}},{"id":"163761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d7405397b5dd74f73e3d1055ccb7a5c893e719c0488308a23a3a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"14:14:08 - 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次長本席身為這個國防外交的委員喔那麼我知道您從歐洲回來喔有關於這個歐洲國家對於台灣的重視在您擔任駐法代表的時候就持續到我們看到的這一次的奧運其實我們不只是奧運被世界看到當時在法國 巴黎我們也有一個文化奧運"},{"start":53.743,"end":80.158,"text":"那麼本席是非常支持這樣的一個做法因為這個是讓台灣的軟實力被看見那麼把台灣被凸顯出來我們也知道接下來在捷克在歐洲還有歐洲的文化台灣文化年這些活動的舉辦真的不可能又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草所以本席在這裡也要特別的是給予鼓勵跟支持因為我們知道接下來立法院也將有代表團會跟著部長一起"},{"start":83.099,"end":111.848,"text":"來看台灣的文物在歐洲展示的部分那麼在這個部分只要是能夠對於台灣給予支持讓台灣被看到本席都願意來給予預算上面的扶持所以這是我們現在在這裡討論追加預算不過我們來看下一張本席雖然身為執政黨的委員我還是要點出來就是隨著國際情勢的變化我們知道尤其是現在全球都面臨的是物價上漲的壓力也不是只有台灣"},{"start":112.788,"end":140.182,"text":"那麼以114年度也就是2025年的預算來講外交部是原并編列了302億但是在經過了12億的刪除之後法定預算來到了290億其實很多的國際宣傳國際合作以及國際救難等過去我們強調的Taiwan Can Help這些錢都被刪了那麼本席也認為他應該要加回來不過我還是認為"},{"start":141.443,"end":165.88,"text":"外交部有必要解釋的是被刪了8億多但是現在提的追加預算卻來到21億比原併的就是等於刪的還要多那麼我認為這個時候我要提供你時間好好的來解釋一下這樣的狀況是為了什麼到底錢用在什麼地方還是說真的有什麼不足的部分"},{"start":167.531,"end":185.221,"text":"謝謝委員 我很快以去年在巴黎奧運為例用了我們多國際宣傳費我們看到台灣在巴黎奧運的時候得到很多的關注一般而言外交部預算在2008年的時候曾經佔我們政府總預算的1.8%到去年290億的時候已經一路降到只剩下0.98%所以外交部的預算確實是一直在遞減"},{"start":196.047,"end":199.11,"text":"要做我們知道我們的國際環境是比較辛苦的所以事實上是需要更多的立法院的支持現在我們多邊出來的我們不是就說我們回邊跟多邊的其實有很大一部分"},{"start":210.663,"end":239.262,"text":"是我們駐外人員的戶調也就是我們大使出去然後換國家這些都需要經費的那這個都被曾經被刪過所以我們把它回編回來那新編的例如說是我們的健保我們的健保就是我們駐外人員他們在外面他們在外面也有也有就是說有那個保費那健保事實上需要政府的支持因為外交人員很辛苦所以這屬於對於我們外交人員的支持這一部分"},{"start":239.902,"end":263.135,"text":"還有我們的租金就是外管的租金其實因為通貨膨脹這不是去年可以預測到的那它造成我們現在外交部很大的負擔所以要維持我們外管的一個正常運作我們需要加編的這樣的一個項目所以這大概是主要是比較是這一類的來請大院來支持我們外交部"},{"start":263.868,"end":280.755,"text":"好 那麼從部長 次長所說的這個部分我們就了解到說其實這都跟駐外的實際運營的工作是有關的是的好 尤其是剛剛你特別提到的有關於健保費這個部分因為因應這個市縣的結果現在健保是不能停的"},{"start":281.275,"end":296.087,"text":"那麼所以說等於這些外館的同仁他們的健保費這些都要補齊那麼如果是這樣的話我希望透過你的說明等一下再做具體討論的時候能夠幫外交部多補留一些第一線外交官支持的費用非常謝謝委員謝謝好 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Help，這些錢都被刪了，本席認為它應該要加回來。不過，我還是認為，外交部有必要解釋的是，被刪了八億多，但是現在提的追加預算卻來到21億，比刪的還要多，我要提供你時間好好地來解釋一下，這樣的狀況是為了什麼、到底錢用在什麼地方，還是真的有什麼不足的部分？"],["吳次長志中：謝謝委員，我很快地以去年在巴黎奧運為例，用了很多國際宣傳費，我們看到臺灣在巴黎奧運的時候得到很多關注。一般而言，外交部預算在2008年的時候曾經占我們政府總預算的1.8%，到去年290億的時候，已經一路降到只剩下0.98%，所以外交部的預算確實是一直在遞減。我們的國際環境是比較辛苦的，所以事實上是需要更多立法院的支持。現在我們回編跟多編的，其實有很大一部分是駐外人員的互調，也就是我們的大使出去，然後換國家，這些都需要經費的，這個都曾經被刪過，所以我們把它回編回來。","至於新編的，例如我們的健保，就是駐外人員他們在外面也有保費，健保事實上需要政府的支持，因為外交人員很辛苦，所以這是屬於對於外交人員支持的部分。還有租金，就是外館的租金，其實因為通貨膨脹，這不是去年可以預測到的，它造成現在外交部很大的負擔，基於維持外館的正常運作，我們需要加編這樣一個項目。所以大概主要比較是這一類的，請大院支持我們外交部。"],["林委員楚茵：好，從次長所說的這個部分，我們就了解到其實這都跟駐外的實際營運工作是有關的。"],["吳次長志中：是的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，尤其是剛剛你特別提到有關於健保費的個部分，因應釋憲的結果，現在健保是不能停的，等於這些外館的同仁，他們的健保費這些都要補齊。如果是這樣的話，我希望透過你的說明，等一下在做具體討論的時候，能夠幫外交部多補留一些對第一線外交官支持的費用。"],["吳次長志中：非常謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["吳次長志中：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。","報告委員會，今天登記公開發言的委員均已詢答完畢，現在休息20分鐘，我們要改開機密會議。機密會議的地點改在群賢樓801室，就在樓下。機密會議只有國防及外交委員會，所以其他委員會、各部會可以在原地休息，還有主計長也要到，等一下801會議室，20分鐘以後。我們要到那邊清場地，20分鐘以後我們開機密會議，就不對外開放了，不開放媒體，但是其他的部會首長請留在原地休息，你們就休息，我們處理完了再回來，馬上要處理預算了，好不好？好，我們現在休息20分鐘。","休息（14時19分）","繼續開會（14時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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非常謝謝委員我想這個是我們的推動共識從107年水利署核定的方向就是這樣子所以原則上我們會考慮到甲鮮的特殊性我們會全力來達成 以上說明好 謝謝主席 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市長你要回答我有沒有包括電纜地下化沒有沒有對不對好那現在卓院長指示的要來把全台的電纜地下化尤其台17、19等嘛對不對是是好那你們規劃的期程所需的經費給院長的報告是多少請簡單說明那跟委員報告齁那這個卓院長他也請台電齁時間有限請簡單說明好不好"},{"start":174.95,"end":191.423,"text":"那台電這邊他會兩個月內提出一個評估報告包括那個經費還有騎乘的部分所以這個部分我想就讓台電那邊把整個規劃報告所以你不曉得你不曉得昨天審查特別條例的時候就已經有講大致上是八十億"},{"start":191.963,"end":211.186,"text":"八十億是這一次的風災的預算但是這一次要評估是全國是啦 那八十億用在哪邊八十億最主要是用在這個台十七線十九線還有十一線還有台九線最主要是沿海八十億要負責四條這個省道台十七十九等"},{"start":213.168,"end":240.559,"text":"夠嗎市長你覺得夠嗎可能不太夠啦可能不太夠是絕對不夠不是不太夠所以你們要預估像卓院長所講的要把這全台的電纜地下化的總體經費是多少到期程應該怎樣去把它精算清楚不是只有兩個月不應該兩個月提出啦可能要更長久的時間但是要快速提出最好是不要超過兩個月我在講的意思你聽懂我的講法嗎"},{"start":242.64,"end":262.372,"text":"所以到昨天我在提這個案的時候我就覺得莫名其妙怎麼只有八十億那台電也達富我也韓南富這其一其二怎麼做針對沿海的地區西部的地區山區呢山區今天所有遇到颱風的時候發生的電感折斷"},{"start":263.453,"end":283.273,"text":"每一枚要去搶修護墊所有的土石流落實誰處理除了地方政府 除了公務局我們難道期待台電的頭人也去搬石頭才去護墊嗎所以有沒有把山區的這樣的狀況納入到這一次的整體評估裡面 有沒有應該會有沒有"},{"start":286.141,"end":293.468,"text":"這一次的沒有市長你不要回答我們的保護事情沒有沒有要不要告訴大陸評估"},{"start":294.844,"end":318.989,"text":"回去之後趕快納入評估所以你可能不只需要兩個月我希望給你更寬裕的時間但是我當時還是期待不只是台灣的海岸線不只是台灣的沿海不只是台灣的西部連台灣的山區都一定要把所有的電纜加強韌性一切納入評估整體的報告中 可以吧可以好 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主席長早上我有聽黃國昌委員在問其他的部會部會有回答追加預算是依預算法79條第三款主席長就以第三款來說所辦事業重大事故經費超過法定預算就以這一款來說請你告訴全體國人114年度預算到今天"},{"start":45.512,"end":55.859,"text":"今年8月28號指有哪一個部會的預算使用已經超過法定預算或者是重大事故是什麼事請主席講說明不要離題喔 謝謝"},{"start":57.363,"end":83.764,"text":"我這裡也要說明一下因為當初被刪減的部分它的一個比率偏高來 主席長 湖邊也是今年度最多的刪了以後還是法定預算創新高 請繼續但是這個是它刪減的是指定項目譬如說它出國經費它刪減了60%然後有一些相關譬如說煤煙會它刪減60%那有的是全部都刪減"},{"start":84.565,"end":104.199,"text":"但我們這一次看到有很多很扯的你還有超補的問題還有所謂的迴編的問題來 我們來看立法院的秘書長針對這一次的追加預算預算中心的報告明明白白寫得很清楚第一 迴編率太高第二 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我們並沒有放在114年的追加預算那我們也曾經詢問過行政院行政院現在的統一對話當然就是以憲法法庭的解釋為主那我們會按照憲法法庭還有行政院的指示來辦理"},{"start":217.045,"end":241.116,"text":"所以你們就是還是繼續打算用憲法法庭來卡這件事情嘛那我另外再請問啊2020年行政院宣布斑斑有冷氣投入300億元要於2022年超前完成當初政府很清楚說電費一定會增加因此承諾由中央補助避免學校家長陷入裝了冷氣卻不能開的一個窘境喔"},{"start":241.576,"end":255.58,"text":"政策的配套也是當初這樣子對社會整個承諾我們看到2022年由蔡英文總統所帶領的行政院他們宣布的國家政策2020年由當時蘇貞昌宣布"},{"start":259.961,"end":289.121,"text":"教育部都明白的指出電費補助這項政策的配套當中的一環教育是憲法保障的權利涉及全國一致性的基本標準因此我認為這是中央統籌才能夠監督整個制度的穩定但是經濟部郭志輝竟然還講說這個電費要由地方政府來出我想這諸多不宜的言論都會造成地方的恐慌我們也再次譴責"},{"start":289.821,"end":292.824,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1534,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（13時59分）好，謝謝主席。有請主計長、內政部、國防部、教育部、經濟部、交通部、文化部，謝謝。"],["主席：陳主計長、內政部劉部長、國防部副部長、教育部鄭部長、經濟部何次長、交通部次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主計長，早上我有聽黃國昌委員在問其他的部會，部會回答追加預算是依預算法第七十九條第三款，主計長，就以第三款「所辦事業重大事故經費超過法定預算」來說，請你告訴全體國人114年度預算到今天8月28號止，有哪一個部會的預算使用已經超過法定預算，或者是重大事故是什麼，請主計長說明，不要離題，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我這裡也要說明一下，因為當初被刪減的部分比率偏高，第二個就是它有一些是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：主計長，浮編也是今年度最多的，刪了以後法定預算還是創新高，請繼續。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是貴院刪減的是指定項目，譬如出國刪減了60%，譬如媒宣費刪減60%，有的是全部都刪減，因為本身這個業務是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我們這一次看到有很多很扯的，有超補的問題，還有所謂的回編的問題，我們來看立法院預算中心針對這一次的追加預算提出的報告，明明白白寫得很清楚，第一、回編率太高，第二、預算法第七十九條第三款的規定，部會的重大事故是什麼都沒有寫，你這樣就要拿出來，這個報告不是都應寫得很清楚嗎？我希望不管是執政黨還有執政黨的委員不要睜眼說瞎話。而且主計長，我問你，你知道追加預算有單位回編1,000元嗎？你知道是哪個單位嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分有幾個單位是這樣子，因為是旅費的部分被限制……"],["羅委員廷瑋：旅費回編1,000元？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為旅費被限制……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有這1,000元，他不能出國？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他是整個……國內旅費的部分，本身整個是一個機關來追加。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想跟全體國人報告，這個單位就是國家圖書館，追加預算1,000元，這也不是旅費的問題，而是辦理古籍、文獻典藏、維護、考編及閱覽服務等所需費用，追加1,000元，國家圖書館這樣有符合預算法第七十九條嗎？8月28日前有所謂的「所辦事業重大事故經費超過法定預算」嗎？我想這就是回編的問題，主計長有沒有掌握呢？我也要加問國防部、內政部，今年6月立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例志願役加薪3萬；1月份三讀的警察人員人事條例提高警消的所得替代率到八成。很多委員都在問，到底現在軍人跟警消的錢有沒有編？請問國防部還有內政部？"],["劉部長世芳：我們並沒有放在114年的追加預算，我們也曾經詢問過行政院，行政院現在統一對外就是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我知道沒有放在追加預算。"],["劉部長世芳：以憲法法庭的解釋為主，那我們會按照憲法法庭還有行政院的指示來辦理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你們就還是打算繼續用憲法法庭來卡這件事情嘛！","那我另外再請問，2020年行政院宣布班班有冷氣投入300億元，要於2022年超前完成，當初政府很清楚說，電費一定會增加，因此承諾由中央補助，避免學校家長陷入裝了冷氣卻不能開的窘境，政策的配套也是當初對整個社會的承諾，這是2020年由蔡英文總統所帶領的行政院時任院長的蘇貞昌宣布的國家政策，教育部都明白指出，電費補助是這項政策配套當中的一環，教育是憲法保障的權利，涉及全國一致性的基本標準，因此我認為這是中央統籌才能夠監督整個制度的穩定，但是經濟部郭智輝竟然講，這個電費要由地方政府來出，我想這諸多不宜的言論，都會造成地方的恐慌，我們也再次譴責，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員的發言。","下一位請陳素月、陳素月委員不在場。","請劉建國委員發言。拜託各位在會場內不要講話，好嗎？我們尊重發言者，請各位保持肅靜。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩衛福部部長來 邱部長請韋濤"},{"start":23.778,"end":45.506,"text":"部長好 是今天事實上是中央政府總預算的追加預算的一個預算案的審查是的那八個委員會的聯席詢問相信很多委員都針對很多預算都想問我也是不過只有時間五分鐘所以我想盡快針對我過去提過的一些問題來做質詢是希望部長能夠共同來解決這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":47.846,"end":71.392,"text":"首先我想部長應該也很清楚同樣是面臨少子化的問題可是偏偏台灣的孩子就是比日韓生得少可是我們五歲以下的死亡率從2020年之後開始往上攀升甚至已經是日韓的兩倍了我想這是讓人遺憾的一個數據所在是前幾天我跟"},{"start":72.432,"end":98.241,"text":"家庭照顾者总会开过还有个案共同召开了一个记者会问的就是恩硕的故事部长你有注意到这个事情吗当然有那部长有注意到这事情的话我相信卫福部呢在儿少的医疗照护的政策上很努力从110年就开始透过我们的优化儿童医疗照顾计划来挹注经费可是为什么花了10亿元在重症"},{"start":98.621,"end":120.53,"text":"重男症的醫療網絡建制為什麼救不了恩索甚至我們要問的是那114年到117年衛福部已經編列了優化兒童醫療照護計畫裡邊預計再投入18億的一個在重男症的醫療上所以我想問一下部長說你覺得會發生恩索的這樣的一個死亡事件你覺得問題出在哪裡"},{"start":120.99,"end":143.813,"text":"好 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我非常感謝委員對醫療院所疑似同仁的一個權益的一個照顧那我先做一個報告再請委員指教第一個為了 我想為了應應國定假日的增加所以我們基層醫療這個部分也要應應所以在5月"},{"start":233.792,"end":260.721,"text":"今年的五月二十六號已經喊請調整合理門人量的天數由二十五天下降到二十二天那已經提十一百一四點六月二十五號的一個基層總委員商會議討論會議決議是修正通過啦齁那所以每月看診的人數的日式調整為二十二日齁那在第一段的看診人數由三十人變成三十五人這是第一個齁那加入開診的這個部分我想那個我們就盡量來爭取經費"},{"start":262.702,"end":273.133,"text":"那所有的疫苗的一個呈現我們已經改善很多了譬如說在校園裡面就可以直接來處理那未來會把這樣的一個公會疫苗的上傳做得更精準更好好 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他審計長有來嗎"},{"start":145.523,"end":172.247,"text":"公務員如果沒有依法行政對不對總統明令公布的法令沒有按照做預算或是在預算過程中沒有按照預算來支給來使用預算的話這樣有違背什麼法令公務人員要依法行政吧如果有涉及到刑事不法當然有告訴高發或者是自首或其他的情形式的話那檢察官大人可以依法來支辦這刑訴數228條就要看有沒有成立"},{"start":174.417,"end":187.66,"text":"如果有犯罪嫌疑的話 根據刑事訴訟那是不是公務員使用這個公帑是不是應該依法使用當然是依法行政嘛那是不是涉及犯罪犯罪個案認定這個我沒辦法幫你講講那個具體的好 謝謝你 來 那個審計長那他這種自己挪用這個預算的這個行為我們到時候你要怎麼審計啊"},{"start":195.863,"end":213.675,"text":"我們是監督預算執行對對對他已經這樣執行了到時候你們怎麼來做都要照預算來執行是沒錯應該照預算但他已經沒有的話你到時候怎麼做因為我們會看情節是怎麼樣的話我們會來處理移送給相關機關嘛比如說檢調單位嘛好那我想請教外交部這是追加的預算喔"},{"start":219.737,"end":223.12,"text":"其他可以休息最佳的預算裡頭你們增加了你們原來319億經過3減剩305你們又追加20億所以你們超補了7億多做什麼作用這裡頭包括行政院有超補31億然後海委會有超補4億他都跟我們講合理的理由外交部7億多做什麼主要做什麼報告委員在迴邊方面是那個住外人員的戶調"},{"start":247.55,"end":269.218,"text":"以前不用戶雕嗎那為什麼現在比原來的預算比114年度的預算又多了7億多比你原來那一邊的多7億多新增那一部分今天有通過健保就住外人要付錢多7億多就對了 說這7億多是健保就對了沒關係我可以一個 那是主要項目健保良益嘛"},{"start":271.14,"end":279.634,"text":"然後外管租金也增加那你原來去年在編的時候沒有嗎來 你給我一個完整的說明因為我們時間有限 你給我完整的說明好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1340,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（13時22分）謝謝主席。請主計長、審計長還有外交部及法務部。"],["主席：請陳主計長、陳審計長、外交部次長……"],["陳委員玉珍：外交部部長沒有來嗎？"],["主席：外交部部長出國。"],["陳委員玉珍：法務部鄭部長有來嗎？"],["主席：請法務部鄭部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想先請問一個最根本的問題，這636億的部分，當初我們審議是有給地方性補助款，沒有問題吧！主計長，我們有給地方嘛，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：總統有沒有明令公布？"],["陳主計長淑姿：在公布的時候我們就已經刪減了，就刪減636億……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是。公布的時候，我有看到總統令喔！它是第二十五項，636億的地方縣市政府一般補助款，它明明白白寫這幾個字喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是。那裡面有寫要我們自行調整刪減636億。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是。那一條我們是沒有刪的，好！不管，你現在把它刪掉了，不是把它刪掉，你把它挪用了，就是不給地方政府，現在又要來，就是當成肉票要脅我們一定要追加……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是挪用，因為它本身就規定要刪減2,076億，這裡面包含統籌的939億，我們939億能夠按標準刪減就只有……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，因為我們想說，好！這一次如果我們通過這636億，這有溝通，就是你們會不會又再一次……如果我們不通過這132億，你們會不會又把這個錢挪用啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們這都以逐項來審查。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果我們這次不通過132億，你們會不會再把要給地方政府的632億再挪用一次？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，這是因為當初有通案刪減……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們會不會再自行調整？大聲一點。這次的追加……"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初是因為你們有通案刪減……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們講現在，如果這636億給你們過，132億不給你們過，你們會再挪去用嗎？會把632億再移去給132億使用嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：會不會？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會。"],["陳委員玉珍：肯定不會喔！如果之前有……我想要請教法務部，還有司法院喔！如果公務人員沒有依法行政……審計長有來嗎？公務員如果沒有依法行政，總統明令公布的法令沒有按照做，或是在預算過程中沒有按照規定來支給及使用預算的話，這樣有違背什麼法令？公務人員要依法行政吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有涉及到刑事不法，當然有告訴、告發，或者是自首或其他情事的話，檢察官當然可以依法來偵辦，這是刑事訴訟法第二百二十八條，要看有沒有成立……"],["陳委員玉珍：我聽不見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有犯罪嫌疑的話，根據刑事訴訟法……"],["陳委員玉珍：公務人員使用公帑是不是應該依法使用？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然是依法行政嘛！是不是涉及犯罪，個案認定。"],["陳委員玉珍：對吧，應該要吧！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法幫你講具體的情形。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝你。審計長，這一種自己挪用預算的行為，你們到時候要怎麼審計啊？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是監督預算執行。"],["陳委員玉珍：對！但如果他們已經這樣執行了，到時候你們怎麼來做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：相關機關都要照預算來執行。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，沒錯。應該照預算執行，但他們已經沒有的話，你到時候怎麼做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會看情節是怎麼樣再來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：移送給相關機關嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：比如檢調單位嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，其他官員可以回座休息。我想請教外交部，這次追加的預算裡，你們增加了，原來是319億，經過刪減剩305億，你們又追加20億，所以你們超補了七億多，做什麼作用啊？這裡包括行政院有超補31億、海委會有超補4億，大家都要給我們合理的理由，外交部的七億多主要做什麼？"],["吳次長志中：報告委員，在回編方面是駐外人員的互調。"],["陳委員玉珍：以前不用互調嗎？"],["吳次長志中：要啊！駐外人員要……"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！為什麼現在比114年度的預算又多了七億多？比原來編的多七億多。"],["吳次長志中：那是回編的部分，新增的那一部分是今年有通過健保的相關規定，就駐外人員要付健保費，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：多七億多就對了？這七億多是用在健保就對了？沒關係，請說。"],["吳次長志中：那是主要項目。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是健保嘛？"],["吳次長志中：健保是2億；另外外館租金也增加，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們原來去年在編的時候是沒有的。來，你給我一個完整的說明。"],["吳次長志中：因為物價上漲……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為我時間有限，你給我完整的說明。"],["吳次長志中：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["吳次長志中：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢，請吳政次事後再給陳玉珍委員一個補充報告。","現在請羅美玲、羅美玲、羅美玲、羅美玲委員不在。","請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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到了五月份喔他又一直在提醒行政院你可以用追加的方式啊但行政院卻說要提復議結果被否決了 又否決了到了五月份呢 你們又用一個方式來砍地方的補助款來對幹立法院現在八月份又要追加補上所以本校請問這麼大的一個變化請教主席長"},{"start":121.685,"end":125.039,"text":"二月份當時拒絕提追加的為什麼 請說"},{"start":127.997,"end":138.299,"text":"當初不是說要提因為一般我們以往是追加都大部分到年度中間才提一般也是這樣然後當初是因為他刪減裡面他有一個要刪減自行刪減636的這個問題那當初就是說經過考量以後刪減是有困難因為除了636之外呢他刪減的"},{"start":153.483,"end":172.112,"text":"1439的部分涉及到很多業務單位它是有不能留用有涉及到整個有困難所以你現在的提問不就是拒絕溝通嗎人家早就跟你說要怎麼做不就是拒絕溝通嗎絕對不要再政治的操作所以本席要再請問你們的考量跟最後的決策到底是誰決策要這麼做的"},{"start":178.905,"end":196.746,"text":"不是因為本身我們已經2075三檢之後要三檢不是要1439三檢之後要三檢636在國防外交方面三檢是有他的困難還有一般依法律的部分如果說是在人事會的部分也是會有他的困難所以我們才"},{"start":197.567,"end":222.539,"text":"提了幾個案子去給上面來做決策但是像我們本來是給上面做決策所以本期要告訴你韓院長代表立法院跟你們來溝通協調但是是拒絕溝通的是誰是行政院就是著是今非就是讓人民搞不清楚方向也是行政院所以我希望未來的行政院不要再把人民的民生建設來當為籌碼"},{"start":225.556,"end":238.787,"text":"來威脅人民 來威脅立法院我希望真正的來落實依法行政跟服務人民可以答應如此的方向來做嗎事實上我們本來就是如此啦好 所以本席在這邊要嚴正的強調行政跟立法協調溝通"},{"start":244.091,"end":250.955,"text":"不是說行政院說一套做一套因為在這一次的總預算是史上最高2.9兆多再加上878億的最佳預算那麼總預算是高上加高換句話說如果最佳預算全部追加再排除台電的撥補討論那三減的只有到0.65%形同沒有三"},{"start":267.665,"end":292.343,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我們看到98年度到1101年度呢大概是0.86左右所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到所有的預算其他的都是刪除1%以上所以在這一次的預算裡頭回編率有12個機關超過三成更有很多的機關回程率大概八九成所以我們希望"},{"start":292.843,"end":299.55,"text":"不要弱化立法院的監督而是要真正的以民為本讓社會大眾來說明清楚 對不對"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1295,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時12分）謝謝主席，本席邀請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長好，我們今天來討論114年中央總預算的追加預算。","首先，今天送審進來，朝野有一定的溝通基礎，也可以理解這是一個折衷方案，但是我仍要強調，過去反對追加預算來作為可能的折衷方案不是立法院，是行政院，因為在2月11號的時候，總統邀集了五院來協商，立法院韓院長就立即提出，希望行政院別針對於總預算去覆議，並也拋出以追加預算的方式來解套，也承諾會跟朝野各黨團來做協商，不過，行政院是拒絕的，堅持一定要提總預算的覆議案，結果你們現在8月份又自己提出追加預算，希望國會同意，這跟你們在施政有很多政策是一樣的，就是昨是今非、毫無準則。","這一次的追加預算636億地方補助款，你本來年初就應當要依法編列，但是你們不僅自己違法，還亂砍，韓院長到了5月份，他又一直提醒行政院可以用追加的方式，但行政院卻說要提覆議，結果又被否決了，到了5月份，你們又用一個方式砍地方補助款，來對幹立法院。現在8月份又要追加補上，所以有了這麼大的變化，本席要請教主計長，為什麼2月份當時拒絕提追加？請說。"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般來說，以往我們追加大部分是年度中間才提，一般是這樣，當初是因為刪減裡面，有一個要自行刪減636億這個問題，當初經過考量以後，刪減是有困難，因為除了636億之外，刪減1,439億的部分，涉及到很多業務單位不能流用，造成整個有困難。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你現在的提問，不就是拒絕溝通嗎？人家早就跟你說要怎麼做，這不是拒絕溝通嗎？絕對不要再政治操作了。","本席要再請問，你們的考量跟最後的決策到底是誰決策要這麼做的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為我們本身1,439億刪減之後，要刪減636億的部分，在國防、外交方面刪減是有它的困難，還有一般依法律義務的部分，如果說是在人事費的部分，也是會有它的困難，所以我們才提了幾個案子給上面來做決策，但是以往像……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：給上面做決策，所以本席要告訴你，韓院長代表立法院跟你們來溝通、協調，但拒絕溝通的是誰？是行政院。昨是今非、讓人民搞不清楚方向的也是行政院。所以我希望未來行政院不要再把人民的民生建設當作籌碼、威脅人民、威脅立法院，我希望真正落實依法行政跟服務人民，可以答應以如此的方向來做嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，我們本來就是如此。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席在這邊要嚴正的強調，行政跟立法要協調、溝通，不是行政院說一套做一套，因為這一次的總預算是史上最高，二點九兆多，再加上878億的追加預算，總預算是高上加高。換句話說，如果追加預算全部追加，再排除台電的撥補，那刪減的只有0.65%，形同沒有刪，所以在這樣的情況之下，我們看到98年度到101年度刪減的大概是0.86%左右，在這樣的情況之下，我們看到所有的預算，其他都是刪除1%以上，在這一次的預算裡頭，回編率有12個機關，超過三成，更有很多的機關回編率大概八、九成……"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，我們如果扣除那個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望不要弱化立法院的監督，而是要真正的以民為本，跟社會大眾說明清楚，對不對？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們扣除追加的部分刪減數還有1%，也不是說沒有1%。"],["主席：好，私底下再跟楊委員報告，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝 我想剛剛委員所提的是我們當時因為在大量凍結預算所產生的一個狀況的我們的擔心那當然謝謝大院的支持讓我們的預算能夠得到解凍那大部分這些工作我們都能夠持續在進行"},{"start":146.593,"end":171.24,"text":"那在這樣的另外當然也有刪減的部分還是有很重要必須要做的工作包括您所提到關心不管是防疫方面的事情或者是幼兒的一個專責的一個照顧的一個相關的工作優化兒童照顧這個都需要再補相當相當的經費才能夠讓他讓兒童的一個照顧能夠更加的周全沒有受到影響"},{"start":172,"end":176.41,"text":"所以很希望能夠在這個部分給予我們這個部分的幫忙 謝謝"},{"start":177.813,"end":203.398,"text":"好 謝謝部長喔這個就是我希望衛福部趁這個機會再多做說明然後多讓民眾更直接的感受到這一次的追加預算到底對衛福部對民眾就醫的權益有什麼幫助那是不是可以請更清楚的同仁明確的告訴我例如這一次的完善兒童醫療網路計畫裡面追加兩千一百萬然後護理人力的政策的整備中長城計畫追加兩千兩百萬"},{"start":206.338,"end":230.772,"text":"還有提高國家重要癌症篩檢的經費追加六千六百萬這三筆明明都非常的重要那剩下四十四秒可不可以請部長哪一位同仁告訴我們這三筆經費為什麼這麼重要因為這三筆都分布在不同的司啦可能沒時間跟委員報告那這三筆都是分別需要護理人力還有癌症篩檢這兩筆護理人力的話因為"},{"start":236.209,"end":255.888,"text":"因為癌症篩檢我們要做更多的一個輔導還有加上胃癌的一個篩檢所以這個是我們大概要一萬人所以因為胃癌篩檢現在我們只有成效相當重要對於我們要達到癌症死亡率降低三分之一是一個非常關鍵的所以我們要趕快進行來保護"},{"start":256.568,"end":263.494,"text":"人民的健康所以這個部分癌症篩檢非常的必要那在婦女的同等方面在三班互併比的方面我們是希望能夠增添了兩千多萬來希望穩定我們的互併比好 我們再給委員資料好啦 謝謝部長 我就是要講這個都很需要"},{"start":273.283,"end":285.535,"text":"你們要嚴簡易改用最簡單的方式用最短的速度告訴我們為什麼這個追價預算這麼重要我們有做事想做事就要讓大家知道好不好好 我們穩定護理人力加強兒童的照顧 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1277,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（13時7分）謝謝主席。請衛福部部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。最近辛苦了，想跟您請教一下，其實在今年審查總預算的時候，我就有問過衛福部，衛福部的預算被大幅刪減之下，到底會影響哪一些業務？當時衛福部給我的回應是，包括委辦費刪減了10%會導致幼兒專責醫師的管理費短缺，影響的幼兒人數大概是2萬人；也有跟我說，全臺480家醫院聘用護理人員會更加困難，導致護理人力的流失，影響民眾就醫的權利；甚至也跟我提到，這會影響到全臺109家醫院，總共5,325床，執行住院、整合照護服務，這一些都會增加負荷；甚至還有兒童口腔預防保健等等的服務，都會影響民眾就醫品質；還有兩個我非常在意的是，這個預算被刪掉之後，就會更難監測全國社區呼吸道病原跟腸病毒實際流行的趨勢跟病毒變化的情形，等於是會直接影響到傳染病疫情防治的整備跟防疫作為，以及在我們國際機場還有港口設置檢疫站跟執行入境旅客的檢疫，都很可能變成沒有辦法即時攔查到傳染病從境外移入的狀況，影響到社區的安全，以上等等都是在審查預算的時候，衛福部給我的答案，我現在就要問，請問這一次追加預算，有沒有把以上這些項目納入？有的話，是不是在追加預算之後，以上這些問題可以獲得解決呢？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝。剛剛委員所提的是當時因為大量凍結預算所產生的狀況及我們的擔心，謝謝大院的支持，讓我們的預算能夠得到解凍，大部分這些工作我們都能夠持續進行。","另外，刪減的當中還是有很重要、必須要做的工作，包括您所提到及關心的，不管是防疫方面的事情，或者是幼兒專責照顧相關的工作，優化兒童照顧，這都需要相當的經費才能讓兒童的照顧能夠更加周全，不會受到影響，所以很希望在這個部分能夠幫忙我們，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長，這就是我希望衛福部趁這個機會再多做說明，多讓民眾更直接的感受到這次的追加預算，到底對衛福部、對民眾就醫的權益有什麼幫助，是不是可以請更清楚的同仁明確地告訴我，例如這一次的完善兒童醫療網絡計畫追加2,100萬；護理人力政策的整備中長程計畫追加2,200萬；還有提高國家重要癌症篩檢的經費追加6,600萬，這三筆明明都非常重要，我剩下44秒，可不可以請部長或同仁告訴我們，這三筆經費為什麼這麼重要？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這三筆的業務都分布在不同的司，可能沒時間跟委員報告……"],["黃委員捷：是不是請一位同仁告訴我護理人力還有癌症篩檢這兩筆為什麼很重要？"],["邱部長泰源：護理人力的話，因為癌症篩檢，我們要做更多的輔導，還有加上胃癌的篩檢，大概要篩檢1萬人，有關胃癌篩檢，我們覺得成效相當重要，對於我們要達到癌症死亡率降低三分之一，這是非常關鍵的部分，所以我們要趕快進行，來保護人民的健康，所以癌症篩檢非常必要。","在護理同仁三班護病比的方面，我們希望能夠增列兩千多萬來穩定我們的護病比……"],["主席：事後資料再給我們委員，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們再給委員資料。這個都很需要……"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長，我要說，拜託，你們要言簡意賅，用最簡單的方式，用最短的速度告訴我們為什麼這個追加預算這麼重要，我們有做事、想做事就要讓大家知道，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們穩定護理人力、加強兒童的照顧，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。時間把握一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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有請教育部跟文化部那文化部可以稍後教育部的鄭部長 文化部的李部長stand by委員好"},{"start":28.294,"end":49.655,"text":"部長早安 辛苦了我想這個少子化的衝擊其實已經不是未來會發生而是正在發生當中那我們一直強調這個即時教育有多麼的重要那我們也希望能夠投入更多的資源來即時教育的一個培養讓很多的學生能夠在畢業之後他也許可以跟產學合作可以直接進入到相關的一些產業"},{"start":50.456,"end":72.375,"text":"但是事實上殘酷的事實是目前我們看到了所有的這個計職教育計職學校的一個招生的人數持續的下滑甚至有一些學校連科系都有可能招不到學生那我想這已經凸顯到了這個少子化的一個困境那目前我們知道在這個計職教育的行政跟督導的這個項目我們編列了"},{"start":74.917,"end":101.875,"text":"10.81億的一個預算那到目前為止截至目前為止我們的資訊率是6成等於說我們還有4成要繼續的努力那這個其實也凸顯了三個方面我提供給部長來做一些參考包含就是在經費的效益上另外在我們的招生制度是不是也應該要改變再來長期的一個規劃跟藍圖的部分那我想在經費的部分我們是不是真的有用在這個學生的學習跟他的一個學業的"},{"start":104.016,"end":122.103,"text":"還有就是技職的一個能力的這個部分是不是真的有在落實喔還是大部分我們補助的這些經費只是用在所謂的帳面的計畫沒有實際去改善整個所有的技職的技能的一個困境那第二剛剛我提到的這個招生的困難的部分喔"},{"start":122.463,"end":148.78,"text":"那招生其實這個名額其實跟市場的需求目前為止看到的是嚴重的脫節當中那我們教育部有沒有可能要檢討現行的一個招生制度有沒有考慮就是部分的學校可以轉型成為所謂的專業培養他們的這些所謂的技能跟產學的合作而不是只是在一味的一個補助這個提供給你們做參考另外在這個長期的藍圖的部分"},{"start":150.103,"end":179.004,"text":"我想這個未來十年 技職教育的方向其實應該要持續而且我們應該是要轉型那我想這個結構上的一個轉型是不是有一個更清楚的藍圖在這邊是不是請部長時間有限 簡短回應是 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by。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安，辛苦了。少子化的衝擊已經不是未來會發生，而是正在發生當中，我們一直強調技職教育有多麼重要，我們也希望能夠投入更多的資源來進行技職教育的培養，讓很多學生在畢業之後，也許可以跟產學合作，直接進入到相關的產業。但殘酷的事實是，目前我們看到所有技職學校的招生人數是持續下滑，甚至有一些學校連科系都有可能招不到學生，這已經凸顯出少子化的困境。目前我們知道在技職教育的行政跟督導的項目，我們編列了110.81億的預算，截至目前為止的執行率是六成，等於說你們還有四成要繼續努力，這也凸顯了三個方面，我提供給部長來做參考，包含在經費的效益上，還有我們的招生制度是不是也應該要改變，以及長期的規劃跟藍圖的部分。","在經費的部分，我們是不是真的有用在學生的學習跟他的學業及技職能力的部分，是不是真的有在落實？還是我們補助的經費大部分只是用在帳面計畫，並沒有實際去改善所有技職技能的困境。第二，剛剛我提到招生困難的部分，目前為止看到招生名額跟市場需求是嚴重的脫節，教育部有沒有可能去檢討現行的招生制度？有沒有考慮將部分學校轉型成為專業，培養他們的技能去跟產學合作，而不是只是一味的補助？這個提供給你們做參考。另外，在長期藍圖的部分，我想未來十年技職教育的方向應該要持續，而且應該要轉型，這個結構上的轉型，是不是有一個更清楚的藍圖？時間有限，是不是請部長簡短回應？"],["鄭委員英耀：是，有關剛才委員所提的，事實上是一個很好的思考方式，我們過去類科太多，所以怎麼樣有一些專業科目的專科學校，我想我們來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想教育部不能只是用錢去撐住這個數字……"],["鄭委員英耀：是，我們一定會認真做政策人才培育的改變。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們要求的是應該用制度去創造技職學生他們將來的出路，我覺得這個應該是今天的重點，之後其實我們還有很多時間可以在院會當中討論。","接著下來請文化部。"],["主席：請文化部李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：不好意思，因為今天時間真的非常趕，大家都在接力。我想語言已經不只是溝通的一個工具，更是一個文化重點的核心，國家語言發展法其實上路已經多年了，但是到目前為止，相關的認證制度或者是師資的培育、教材的標準，並沒有看到完整的落實。我想請文化部來回應這四點，就政策的落實上面，是不是有語言認證的制度跟師資培育的具體時程？如果有具體的時程，之後請提供給我們辦公室。再來，國家語言發展中心跟教育部、原民會之間，是不是有可能會有分工不清的狀況？如果碰到分工不清或者是他們的任務上面有重疊，你們怎麼樣來釐清？另外，在人才培育的部分，目前語言的師資嚴重不足，在這個部分，你們怎麼克服？第四點，跟預算相關，321億國家語言發展的方案，在115年結束之前，文化部能不能夠提供給我們具體的成果跟指標？可能事後我提供給文化部，然後再給我們一些書面的答復，好嗎？"],["主席：請李部長事後再提供給郭委員。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝，我會事後答復。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：現在請蘇清泉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝趙偉那我們是不是請考試院副秘書長考試院副秘書長 請人事總處人事長 蘇龍人事長 請跟教育部教育部政部長"},{"start":38.22,"end":39.76,"text":"委員 午安這個 三位長官我們今天在處理這個事實上這個追加預算在處理要把被刪除的預算來適度的來做一些補回然後讓機關可以運作這件事事實上在場的所有的部門都有一樣的需求"},{"start":64.105,"end":80.376,"text":"但是我看起來啦 大概在野黨不打算這一筆給你們過啦所以你們要通過這一筆預算 難度非常高所以我在這裡 我直接想要跟你們講另外一個層次的問題就是說 事實上 你們知不知道現在基層很多的預算就算有錢 沒有人可以支付這件事這你們清楚沒有那去討報這部分啦"},{"start":89.454,"end":113.395,"text":"人事長 你說欠缸 欠缸去補分還是怎樣服務在政府機關的部你直接講一下我的答案啦我還沒有秀出這一頁你就看到了嘛因為我有看到你眼睛裡面的那一種期待我發現 厲害那這個考試院呢"},{"start":117.18,"end":145.557,"text":"土木的一個缺工這個因為有教考任用整個四個環節那在我們考試的部分我們最近也開始要做一個看怎麼樣子能夠改善的部分我跟你們講啦現在整個基層因為這個土木類的一個人才公務員就已經不足了你看我們工程類的缺額從112年缺1400到現在已經都缺到了2000人那每年報考的人數一直減少"},{"start":146.658,"end":170.457,"text":"那這個問題我覺得考試院跟人事總署你們要正視啊不然我們所有的機關你送給他錢他沒辦法去執行因為他的工程人才不夠我跟你們講我這一次在嘉義我在處理南境大排他整個未來工程的時候主要在頂端要農水署 農水署說我們欠人會大 第五河川署 第五河川署說他也沒人"},{"start":171.718,"end":176.5,"text":"都有一個大改觀政府 改觀政府說我們這是非六都的機關我們的這個建設處的人員更少水上港公所說我們那個公所建設區的也沒人哇 全部沒人 最後你知道後來我怎樣嗎我就去找國軍"},{"start":190.346,"end":197.875,"text":"因為整個南京大牌中間有一段有一段是空軍第四聯隊我就拜託空軍說不然你來幫我處理發包就好設計一樣給這個專業單位設計發包的執行能不能請國軍來協助國軍抓到我說不要啦 我們這裡阿兵哥現在就沒有大專兵"},{"start":210.429,"end":237.383,"text":"現在這個阿兵哥對於這個工程類事實上專業可能不太夠所以他們也是沒辦法來協助這一條水里大白的發包哇 這個我處理起來我覺得好無奈所以我還是覺得啦整個工程界沒辦法把人才留在我們的公務機關全部跑到民間第一個 薪資的問題在野黨 唯一不敢砍的就是公務員的薪資"},{"start":238.695,"end":241.336,"text":"他們不會砍所以你們應該好好的去調整我們整個薪資的一個處理讓這些人才可以留在我們的公務機關這樣我們有餘生我們可以發佈處理第二要怎樣讓這些人才可以進入公務機關這個要請教育部了因為我們知道我們這裡"},{"start":259.985,"end":262.787,"text":"二類組的啦 優秀的都跑去電機啊都跑去機械啊要來淘寶的比較少所以現在有好多大學都把土木系都關掉了所以我認為教育部你應該協助現在有土木系的大學"},{"start":274.736,"end":281.201,"text":"要多去開一些公會生那這些公會生咧 未來讓他可以留在機關一流的人在我們這裡所有黨委的機關靠我就替我們國家做事情不然你知道 潮汐那幾個公務人員他們也沒辦法 你們這裡的工作發包處理每包都在那裡 繳票 就花很多的時間沒有效率了啦 好不好這一塊我們再檢討一下讓我們這一些工程類的機關可以順利運創這個是很重要的"},{"start":303.501,"end":303.521,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1191,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時47分）謝謝召委。我們是不是請考試院副秘書長。"],["主席：好，考試院副秘書長。"],["蔡委員易餘：人事總處人事長蘇俊榮跟教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：人事長、鄭部長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員午安。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。3位長官，我們今天在處理追加預算，把被刪除的預算適度地做一些補回讓機關可以運作，事實上這件事情在場所有的部門都有一樣的需求，不過我看起來大概在野黨不打算把這一筆給你們過，所以你們要通過這一筆預算難度非常高。所以我在這裡就直接想要跟你們講另外一個層次的問題，你們知不知道現在基層很多的預算就算有錢也沒人有辦法執行，這你們清楚嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：尤其土木的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：人事長，你說缺工這部分還是怎樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：土木在政府機關的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：對！你直接講到我的答案，我還沒有秀出這一頁，你就看到了嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為我有看到你眼睛裡面的那一種期待。"],["蔡委員易餘：我眼睛……厲害！考試院呢？土木的缺工。"],["吳副秘書長美紅：對，因為有教考任用四個環節，我們在考試的部分最近也開始看怎麼樣能夠改善。"],["蔡委員易餘：我跟你們講，現在整個基層因為土木類的人才，公務員就已經不足了，你看工程類的缺額從112年缺1,400人，到現在已經缺到2,000人，每年報考人數一直減少，這個問題我覺得考試院跟人事總處要正視，不然我們所有的機關，你就算給它錢，它也沒辦法去執行，因為土木工程人才不夠。我跟你們講，我這一次在嘉義處理南靖大排未來整個工程的時候，主要在上段要農水署，農水署說：我們缺人；下段要第五河川署，第五河川署說：我們也沒人，還有一段要嘉義縣政府，嘉義縣政府說：我們是非六都的機關，建設處的人員更少；水上鄉公所說：公所建設課也沒人。哇！全部沒人。你知道後來我怎樣嗎？我就去找國軍，因為整個南靖大排中間有一段是空軍第四聯隊，我就拜託空軍說：不然你來幫我們處理發包就好，設計一樣讓這些專業單位設計，能不能請國軍來協助發包的執行？國軍就跟我說：不要啦！我們這裡的阿兵哥現在都沒大專兵了，事實上阿兵哥對於土木工程類可能專業不太夠，所以他們也是沒辦法來協助這一條大排的發包。哇！這個我處理起來覺得好無奈。","所以我還是覺得整個工程界沒辦法把人才留在公務機關，全部跑到民間，第一個，薪資的問題，在野黨唯一不敢砍的就是公務員的薪資，他們不會砍，所以你們應該好好地調整整個薪資的處理，讓這些人才可以留在公務機關，這樣我們有預算才有辦法發包出去。第二個，要怎樣讓這些人才可以進入公務機關，這個要請教育部了，因為我們知道有些二類組的優秀人才都跑去電機、跑去機械，要來土木的比較少，所以現在有好多大學都把土木系關掉了。所以我認為教育部應該協助現在有土木系的大學要多去開一些公費生，讓這些公費生未來可以留在機關，把一流的人留在所有的單位、機關，這樣才有辦法替我們國家做事情。不然你即使操死那幾個公務人員，他們也沒辦法把你們這些工作發包出去，每包都在那邊招標，拖很長的時間，沒有效率了啦！好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：這一塊你們再檢討一下，讓這些工程類的機關可以順利運暢，這個是很重要的，拜託！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡委員的質詢。","下一位請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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災民需要正確的訊息都需要媒體宣傳費對不對在下頁譬如說防制詐騙打詐"},{"start":144.574,"end":153.68,"text":"沒錢怎麼宣導除了這筆4.2億的沒宣費要被在野黨再砍之外連內政部警政署的詐騙宣導的費用4025萬也要被砍在下一頁"},{"start":161.605,"end":177.824,"text":"防疫要沒宣防災要宣導沒錢怎麼搞我請秘書長很快的再次喊話這些沒宣費都是重要的證物要讓人民知道但是又再一次被惡砍你們很難承受來秘書長"},{"start":181.938,"end":204.918,"text":"謝謝委員事實上我們新聞傳播的業務主要是要辦理國家整體的施政還有重要的政策重大事件防災還有緊急應變比較重大議題的這個宣導剛剛委員也提到了打炸風災這個都要正確的支持讓所有的災民知道這樣的消息另外一個就比如說"},{"start":205.839,"end":214.504,"text":"我們現在決議如果要普發現金的話那我們也需要告訴人民怎麼領然後甚至於在這種情況下可能會有詐騙集團不要受騙那我想這個都需要媒體宣傳謝謝秘書長請在野黨的委員不要成為詐騙集團的幫兇喔我們需要沒宣費來打擊假消息有請李委員部長秘書長請回"},{"start":231.773,"end":251.585,"text":"就因為沒了沒宣費我們前進大阪市博下一頁的計畫在下一頁只能用民間來募資部長文化人何其辛苦啊被政治追殺還要募資集資去做文化外交您來反映一下這個辛苦吧"},{"start":252.401,"end":268.59,"text":"好 其實這一次我們去大阪試播因為沒有沒宣費之後民間主動在網路上募款大概兩三天就募到了六百億那他的募款過程我完全不知道我看了一下也覺得嚇一跳就是像這種事情文化人"},{"start":269.33,"end":276.974,"text":"會非常同情我們那台灣的文化好 謝謝喔這個可以了 這個私底下報告可以說 對不起好 馬上 下一個階段也有700萬的錄款第二階段請部長再幫民進民進加以法令好 主席啊"},{"start":285.018,"end":286.479,"text":"我再幫你們好不好 我再幫你們開快車 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謝謝馬委員的諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1119,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（12時36分）謝謝主席。麻煩請主計長，還有國防部副部長。"],["主席：陳主計長、國防部副部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：主計長、副部長好。這一次行政院提出的追加預算案，國防部的部分是六十三億餘元，接近64億，其中軍事官兵各項勤務加給的部分大概有五十三億多，還有其他的項目，大概將近10億元，就這個部分，本席在這裡要特別強調，114年國防部公務預算當中攸關國軍的薪餉以及各項加給的人事費用，並沒有刪除任何一毛錢，副部長，對吧？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：對。"],["馬委員文君：然後114年國防部的調增第一項預備金總額也達到28億元，這個也是一毛都沒刪，而且只有增加，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["馬委員文君：好，在大罷免期間還是有側翼跟媒體惡意攻擊，說在野黨亂刪凍預算，這裡我們要特別澄清，尤其薪水如果是給官兵，我們都非常的支持。不過這一次的追加預算感覺上有點像趁火打劫，為什麼？我想要請教主計長，剛剛您是不是有回答委員說，這次提這個追加預算是8月4號要求各單位提出的？是8月4號，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上我們很早就在做準備……"],["馬委員文君：很早，是多早？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們在6、7月的時候就開始……"],["馬委員文君：1月的時候就在準備？"],["陳主計長淑姿：6、7月。"],["馬委員文君：6、7月就在準備。好，即使6、7月就在準備，可是那時候要求各單位提出來的時候，這個可以看得出來在去年沒有編列預算的情況之下，總統分別在今年的4月、7月公布要各項加給，國防部有沒有估算大概需要多少錢？就是針對總統公布的部分，戰鬥加給也好、戰鬥部隊加給也好、志願役加給，這個需要多少錢？而且國防部本來預劃這些錢要從哪裡來？有沒有一個方向？誰來答？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我們今年在預劃的時候，加給的部分我們預估是97億。"],["馬委員文君：97億？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["馬委員文君：現在呢？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們是把人維費和第二預備金都把它列進去。"],["馬委員文君：那時候我們預劃的來源就是人事費用跟預備金嘛，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是。"],["馬委員文君：過去的往例也都是這樣？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["馬委員文君：今天如果沒有追加這個預算，其實就會用這些調節的預算來支付，所以你現在又用追加預算要把它補上來，這樣子的目的……那其他原來的預備金跟那些人事費用經費，你們打算如何運用？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想預備金基本上來講，我們在用途別循往例都是如此啦！但是今年天災特別多，我們也會把這些預算一部分寬估在……"],["馬委員文君：現在已經9月了，你如果提到天災，因為天災的發生每年都有。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的。"],["馬委員文君：如果還沒有發生的時候本來要用在這裡，但你現在突然全部統統都用預備金，其實這個已經有點說不過去，因為當時已經規劃出來了，這有點像我剛剛講的趁火打劫，所以在這裡我們要特別強調，我們還是希望薪水都應該要好好的給我們的軍事官兵。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，謝謝委員關心。"],["馬委員文君：可是我要在這裡特別問到的是，我們沒有預算都可以調節或追加預算，那我們已經三讀通過，總統也已經公布的軍人加薪3萬，為什麼不編？怎麼可以不編？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我們部長早上也講得非常清楚，因為我們是行政團隊的一員，就適法性來講，現在已經提出釋憲……"],["馬委員文君：適法性？已經三讀，而且總統已經公布，如果依法……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我們是行政團隊的一員……"],["馬委員文君：你是應該要編的，如果你都已經先設想了釋憲的結果，所以是釋憲的結果你們都已經先想到的意思嗎？大法官是可以這樣控制的嗎？所以就這個部分……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：我們還是希望這個部分國防部要審慎的考量。"],["主席：好。"],["馬委員文君：你雖然是行政團隊的一部分，可是必須為所有軍事官兵據理力爭，尤其是已經立法通過的……"],["主席：報告委員，私底下報告，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：主計長也在後面，希望你們這一個部分要好好地想清楚，而且也要做明確的交代，謝謝。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員的質詢。","下一位林倩綺、林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在。","魯明哲、魯明哲、魯明哲委員不在。","吳思瑤委員，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 主席我們請主席長陳淑芝主席長跟總統府代表主席長 總統府的副秘書長還有"},{"start":18.823,"end":43.343,"text":"委員好 副委員好 主席長好主席長一開始你看我們預算法第79條我想大家很多委員提到說是要因為有重大事故那經費超過法定預算的時候來編列那我看這一次的預算內容其實追加預算內容很多都非常的簡略都沒有進行實質的說明所以主席長你認為這一次的追加預算是不是很多有這個狀況是時程太趕嗎還是你就這樣子讓它過去了"},{"start":44.327,"end":73.016,"text":"其实它是最佳预算的表格它跟总预算是有一点不同主席长对不起声音太小声是最佳预算的表格本身就跟那个总预算是有一点点不同那这个部分呢我们以后会来加强那另外这个部分呢这个部分因为我们当初被删减的一个项目它有指定项目它的百分比很高而且等于是说它又不可以流用所以造成在执行上整个业务是有困难的所以这个部分我才提出最佳"},{"start":73.676,"end":93.369,"text":"主席我們從追加預算書裡面看到大家提供的說明裡面都只有提供到一級用途的這個科別目這個二級機關的稅數二級的用途科別目都沒有提供分地總版沒有提供然後還有中央政府各機關資本支出的分析總表還有各機關資本支出的分析表"},{"start":94.009,"end":104.186,"text":"這些在整個追加預算這本裡面也看不到我想問一下這個是符合您追求這個格式這是您追求的格式嗎還是說是漏掉還是沒有變它來不及變"},{"start":104.957,"end":123.389,"text":"因為以往的例子他都沒有提供二級用途別如果有委員有需要我們就會可以提供這個部分來給委員來做參考審查的一個好主席長因為時間有限了沒關係那就請會後繼續提供再來有幾個案子剛剛前面有幾個委員提到包含說這個要問到總統府我想問一下我們總統府這邊何富密"},{"start":125.911,"end":137.322,"text":"到底這個換車編列的一百多萬要來幫這個我們國安會這邊換車換車是重大事故嗎還是有重大事故要換車為什麼換這個車為什麼變在追加預算裡面我請國安會來回應 謝謝委員好根據這個換車是因為那個車子的這個車齡啊已經十幾年了"},{"start":150.202,"end":178.474,"text":"我知道啊我是說你為什麼會放在追加預算那如果十幾年你應該理論上在本預算裡面第一個要把本預算你去年在編的時候就知道這個車十幾年要不然就等現在正在編列這個115年總預算的時候你放心了嗎你放在追加預算你就名字不符嘛預算法第49條講說要因為重大事故我看起來換車不是重大事故啊這第一件事情沒關係那第二件事情我還是要問一下我們的總統府請問一下總統的住宿"},{"start":179.894,"end":196.186,"text":"總統副總統的這個專書也編列在追加預算裡面請問一下上半年跟下半年有什麼重大事故讓總統需要出一本專書來說明報告這是屬於總統府的這個文獻館他們的預算那文獻館當然我想"},{"start":197.186,"end":210.796,"text":"中華民國台灣過去的歷史世界他會去做爬梳跟脈絡的整理那也跟委員報告一下我們這所謂的重大事故就以我的著見來看當時候預算的動山連總統府的維安都可能調度上面會出現一些至愛難行的部分可能但沒有發生嘛"},{"start":217.361,"end":233.431,"text":"要差一點發生當時我也謝謝委員的支持所以要拜託委員支持我們的預算現在包含差旅費我們總統府很多主管都自己墊墊這些差旅費了所以要拜託委員多多支持"},{"start":234.432,"end":248.044,"text":"這個啦 我就講啦 剛剛講換車啦我隨便舉例 光是總統府這樣子小項目的 光是換車跟駐作這個專 總統副總統專它就沒有急迫性 也不是符合重大事故嘛沒有 我都接受 你說總統要出書 這個我沒有意見不是總統出書 真的不是"},{"start":250.606,"end":269.124,"text":"那不應該放在追加預算 它應該放在正常的預算裡面你可以再編在115年 116年的這個本預算裡面報告委員 這是機身彈彈生機的問題我們預算被刪成這樣子一定要追加所以很抱歉 請您多支持 要再拜託謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的諮詢 下一位請馬文君委員諮詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1090,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時32分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請陳淑姿主計長跟總統府代表。"],["主席：主計長、總統府副秘書長。"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：副秘書長好、主計長好。主計長一開始，你看預算法第七十九條，很多委員提到是要因重大事故經費超過法定預算時編列，但我看這一次追加預算的內容很多都非常簡略，都沒有進行實質的說明，所以，主計長，你認為這一次的追加預算是不是有很多這個狀況？是時程太趕嗎？還是你就這樣子讓它過去了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實是追加預算的表格跟總預算是有一點不同。"],["黃委員健豪：主計長，對不起，你的聲音太小聲。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。追加預算的表格本身就跟總預算是有一點點不同，這個部分我們以後會來加強。另外，因為我們當初被刪減的項目是有指定項目，它的百分比很高，而且又不可以流用，所以造成在執行上，整個業務是有困難的，所以這個部分我們才提出追加，另外也是有一些是……"],["黃委員健豪：主計長，我們從追加預算數裡面看到，大家提供的說明裡面都只有提供到一級用途別科目，歲出二級用途別科目分析總表沒有提供，然後還有「中央政府各機關資本支出分析總表」以及「中央政府各機關資本支出分析表」在整個追加預算這本裡面也看不到，我想問一下，這個是符合您追求的格式嗎？還是漏掉沒有編？還來不及編？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為以往的例子都沒有提供二級用途別，如果委員有需要，我們可以提供這個部分給委員參考，做為審查的……"],["黃委員健豪：好，主計長，因為時間有限，沒關係，那就請會後繼續提供。","再來有幾個案子，剛剛前面幾個委員提到，這就要問總統府了，我想問一下總統府副秘關於換車的部分，編列了一百多萬要幫國安會換車，換車是重大事故嗎？還是有重大事故要換車？為什麼要換車？為什麼要編在追加預算裡面？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我請國安會回應，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["劉副秘書長得金：委員好。換車是因為車齡已經十幾年了。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道啊！我是說你為什麼要放在追加預算？如果十幾年了，理論上應該在本預算裡面，第一個，你們去年在編的時候就知道這個車已經十幾年了，要不然就等現在正在編列115年總預算的時候再放進來，放在追加預算裡就名實不符嘛！預算法第七十九條說要因為重大事故，我看起來，換車不是重大事故，這是第一件事情，沒關係。","第二件事情我還是要問一下總統府，總統、副總統的專書也編列在追加預算裡面，請問一下，上半年跟下半年有什麼重大事故讓總統需要出一本專書來說明？"],["何副秘書長志偉：報告，這是屬於總統府文獻館的預算。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["何副秘書長志偉：關於文獻館，我想中華民國臺灣過去的歷史事件，他們會去做爬梳跟脈絡的整理，也跟委員報告一下，所謂的重大事故，以我的拙見來看，當時候預算凍刪連總統府的維安在調度上面都可能會出現一些窒礙難行的部分。"],["黃委員健豪：可能，但沒有發生嘛！"],["何副秘書長志偉：差一點發生！當時候也謝謝委員的支持。所以要拜託委員支持我們的預算，現在包含差旅費，我們總統府很多主管都自己墊這些差旅費了，所以要拜託委員多多支持。"],["黃委員健豪：對啦！剛剛講到換車，我就隨便舉例，光是總統府這樣子的小項目，像是換車跟總統、副總統著作專書就沒有急迫性，也不符合重大事故嘛！"],["何副秘書長志偉：它是文獻館一定要做的。"],["黃委員健豪：我都接受，你說總統要出書，這個我沒有意見。"],["何副秘書長志偉：不是總統出書，真的不是！"],["黃委員健豪：但不應該放在追加預算，它應該放在正常的預算裡面，你們可以編在115、116年的本預算裡面，不應該在追加預算裡面。"],["何副秘書長志偉：報告委員，這是雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，我們的預算被刪成這樣子，一定要追加，所以很抱歉，請您多支持，要再拜託，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢。","下一位請馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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我借委員提醒我知道這一個年監察院都有糾正好 拜託部長接下來部長這個獨家新聞快速跟您說時間到了我們就請那個好不好謝謝好 我們下一位請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1055,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時22分）謝謝主席，有請教育部，謝謝。"],["主席：教育部鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長辛苦了，中午都還沒休息。我們快速討論一下關於運動部即將升格，應該有一些業務跟之前的體育署有關，我想我這邊還是要拜託部長持續幫我們看相關的進度。昨天晚上劉柏君、石明謹這兩位非常重要的運動界朋友發了一個聲明，我不確定部長你有沒有看到，就是關於在幾次的體育諮詢會議當中，他們提出非常非常多實質的改革跟建議，可是他們好像在後來的運動部公開的報告裡面沒有看到讓他們覺得有被採用，當然這個意見不是只有他們兩個人的意見，有非常多體育界的朋友都覺得非常非常的擔心。我知道運動部這中間升格的事情，有非常多其實還是留在教育部裡面討論，所以我想這邊還是要拜託部長持續協助，尤其是新任的李洋部長，在相關會議當中，他也曾經是諮詢委員之一，他有提到所謂體育班的轉型這件事情，我想跟部長再次確認，我每次都問你體育班的事情，在未來9月9號運動部掛牌之後，到底體育班的業務是留在教育部，還是留在運動部？"],["鄭部長英耀：體育班的甄選、所有的相關事項是運動部來管理，但是體育班的教學，當然還是在學校裡面進行，所以它的一些升學、所有的權益是在運動部，但是所有體育班學生的學習跟輔導，還是在教育部裡面來督導、管理。"],["陳委員培瑜：我的時間有限，不過我覺得聽起來有點怪怪的，包含學生的升學綁著運動比賽成績，而我們之前在講運動比賽成績過於注重，其實就導致學生變成所謂的奪牌工具人，而不是一個運動員，所以連李洋部長自己都先說了，他要先是一個學生，才可以是運動員，所以我要拜託部長，在未來持續的……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這個事實上是我們在因應運動部以後，大家共同努力的目標，我們希望我們的運動選手，他的學科、他的基本的許多能力不應該被遺忘，然後被放棄，應該要有一個更全面的全人的發展。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，因為即將成立的運動部一定有非常多細緻的業務分工要跟教育部還有國教署這邊接軌，後續我們辦公室也會持續追蹤，如何確保學生身為一個學生的學科能力不要被犧牲，又不要影響他想要發展運動天賦的這條路，所以運動部跟教育部未來如何做好雙向接軌，協助、接住所有的運動員v s學生，這樣好不好？拜託部長！所以我不知道部長未來有沒有機會積極地跟運動部展開跨部會的會議？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們分工絕對是要合作的，這個部分我們一定會隨時保持兩個部會的……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我希望部長儘速跟李洋部長碰面，討論體育班轉型的問題，在您過往的國教經驗，跟您對於教育有愛的熱情的前提之下，幫忙運動部，把體育班轉型做好，拜託部長了。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我們一定會來做。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來也要拜託部長，去年（2024年）3月份在教育文化委員會，我們有一個臨時提案，當時很多委員都有簽署，我們希望體育署協助處理足協對於民間友人、民間人士的欠款相關整理資料，可是到目前為止，從去年3月到現在已經一年半了，我們辦公室都還是沒有收到，不知道是因為體育署監督足協出現了困難？還是足協決定誓死抵抗體育署的監督？這個部分可不可以拜託部長再幫我們追蹤進度？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，謝謝委員提醒，我知道這個連監察院都有糾正。"],["陳委員培瑜：對、對、對，拜託部長。","接下來部長，這個獨家新聞快速跟您說……"],["主席：時間到了，我們就……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，這個事情拜託……"],["鄭部長英耀：會後我再跟委員請教，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我們先請環境部彭部長還有經濟部的彭部長還有經濟部次長經濟部的何次長何次長 對不起"},{"start":25.751,"end":39.842,"text":"好 部長 次長午安我想請教一下我們這個能源永續的發展是政府的一個施政的一個重點那近期在宜蘭傳出這個陸域風電要在宜蘭開發的計畫那從計畫的開發基地來看是從"},{"start":44.385,"end":59.041,"text":"宜蘭縣的武傑鄉到蘇澳沿海大概是7公里的範圍要設置14步的風機消息一出之後地方所有的民眾還有一些民代都已經強烈的反彈"},{"start":60.823,"end":82.202,"text":"那對於這項的開發計畫可能會造成的生態影響還有這個景觀的破壞都非常高度的讓民眾存疑尤其在開發基地位處全國兩大這個水鳥保護區還有三大國家級的這個重要濕地都有非常豐富的珍貴生態資源那又是因為這個開發行為採取陸域風電陸域開發的這個風電恐怕會"},{"start":88.907,"end":104.38,"text":"造成低頻的這個噪音還有震動以及這個眩影等等對於宜蘭鄉親的一個日常生活會有直接一個不良的影響那基於這個環境保護還有生態的一個保育以及鄉親權益的原則"},{"start":105.521,"end":126.595,"text":"本席在這個7月15號也發文給各單位要求相關單位必須充分的徵詢地方意見預防開發行為對環境所造成的一個負面影響那我在此我想先請教我們彭部長曾經在這個台東風電的這個案子過程當中您曾經表達過"},{"start":128.106,"end":152.791,"text":"不鼓勵也不支持那對於業者在宜蘭沿岸將開發陸域風電的這個規劃您是否也抱持著相同的一個立場那環境部如何替宜蘭鄉親來嚴格把關好 謝謝委員這個態度我也是一樣因為這個距離民眾的這個住宅還有這個特別珍貴的這個海岸線是非常敏感的所以我"},{"start":153.491,"end":181.959,"text":"是不鼓勵也不支持 那業者呢他有想要開發的權利但是環境部有環評審查的把關的一個機制 那也跟委員報告因為近期有幾個也是類似的案子都被環境部整個都退回而且要求不予開發好 那次長 次長您對於這個開發案那經濟部的立場是怎麼樣如果說 如果說啦齁在地方沒有共識之前我們經濟部是不是可以不同意他們來推動"},{"start":183.181,"end":202.711,"text":"跟我們報告 這個只要地方不支持我們經濟部也不會支持好 那部長次長您先請回我接續請我們交通部 我們陳部長部長午安 委員好"},{"start":203.37,"end":218.257,"text":"我接續想請教部長一個問題就是這個鐵路高架的部分從去年6月環評通過之後那期間因為這個南陽溪橋必須要墊高的因素中規的這個騎乘有所延後那在今年"},{"start":218.897,"end":237.715,"text":"四月份也曾經質詢過我們陳部長希望督促本案能夠盡速在上半年能夠核定也讓後續的補助款一併核定那縣府預算編列能夠順利進行的話這個工程才能夠繼續推進那在這個綜合規劃報告似乎在"},{"start":241.956,"end":256.17,"text":"這期間有被退回的問題時至今日還沒有新的進度那我想請教部長就是這個宜蘭的鐵路高架它的中規是否遭遇到什麼樣的困難那是否可以加速推動"},{"start":257.311,"end":281.539,"text":"確保這個工程能夠如期在明年順利來動工好 報告委員這個案子目前在交通部正在審議當中那我們會加速來審議那也會爭取在年底之前得到行政院的核定這個部分我們來努力加速好 那也請部長就針對這個部分能夠掌握其成好看能不能跟我們這個高鐵延伸的部分能夠這個整個工程能夠並進來前進好 謝謝好 謝謝部長謝謝陳委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1038,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時17分）好，謝謝主席，我們先請環境部彭部長，還有經濟部次長。"],["主席：環境部的彭部長，經濟部的何次長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長、次長午安。我想請教一下，能源永續發展是政府的一個施政重點，近期傳出要在宜蘭開發陸域風電的計畫，計畫開發的基地是從宜蘭縣的五結鄉到蘇澳沿海大概7公里的範圍，預計要設置14部的風機，消息一出之後，地方所有民眾還有一些民代都已經強烈的反彈。對於這項開發計畫可能會造成的生態影響還有景觀的破壞，都讓民眾非常高度的存疑，尤其開發基地位處全國兩大水鳥保護區，還有三大國家級的重要溼地，都有非常豐富珍貴的生態資源。因為這個開發行為是在陸域開發風電，恐怕會造成低頻的噪音還有震動以及眩影等等，對於宜蘭鄉親的日常生活會直接產生不良的影響。基於環境保護還有生態的保育，以及保障鄉親權益的原則，本席在7月15號也發文給各單位，要求相關單位必須充分徵詢地方意見，預防開發行為對環境所造成的負面影響。在此我想先請教彭部長，在臺東的風電案過程當中，您曾經表達過不鼓勵也不支持，對於業者在宜蘭沿岸將開發陸域風電的規劃，您是否也抱持著相同的立場？環境部如何替宜蘭鄉親來嚴格把關？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。我的態度也是一樣，因為這個距離民眾的住宅，還有特別珍貴的海岸線是非常敏感的，所以我一樣是不鼓勵也不支持。業者有想要開發的權利，但是環境部有環評審查的把關機制，也跟委員報告，因為近期有幾個也是類似的案子都被環境部整個退回，而且要求不予開發。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。次長，對於這個開發案，經濟部的立場是怎麼樣？如果在地方沒有共識之前，我們經濟部是不是可以不同意他們來推動？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，只要地方不支持，我們經濟部也不會支持。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那部長、次長先請回。","我接續請交通部陳部長。部長午安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：我接續請教部長一個問題，就是鐵路高架的部分，從去年6月環評通過之後，期間因為蘭陽溪橋必須要墊高的因素，綜規的期程有所延後，我在今年4月份也曾經質詢過陳部長，希望督促本案能夠儘速在上半年核定，也讓後續的補助款一併核定，縣府預算編列能夠順利進行的話，這個工程才能夠繼續推進，有關綜合規劃報告似乎在這個期間有被退回的問題，時至今日還沒有新的進度，我想請教部長，關於宜蘭的鐵路高架，它的綜規是否遭遇到什麼樣的困難？是否可以加速推動，確保這個工程能夠如期在明年順利動工？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個案子目前交通部正在審議當中，我們會加速來審議，也會爭取在年底之前得到行政院的核定，這個部分我們來努力加速。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，也請部長針對這個部分能夠掌握期程，看能不能跟我們高鐵延伸的整個工程併進。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們加速，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的質詢。","下一位請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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你知道你的命是誰在保護嗎遇到治安事件 火災 你的命是誰在保護嗎你知道嗎就是錦霄在保護啊"},{"start":241.827,"end":261.513,"text":"國家如果為難誰保護你的命啊有外敵侵犯誰保護啊就是軍人啊所以除了你這個政府踐踏軍人踐踏警消就只在今天爭取賴清德的包裝化妝費你們還真關心我們的警消跟軍人啊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1014,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時13分）主席，有請主計長。"],["主席：陳主計長，請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：主計長好。追加預算是非常態的作法，有合理、必要、急迫性當然可以增加，換句話說，不合理、非必要、非急迫，就不該隨意增加。我想請教，這次追加預算的媒體宣傳費用總共是多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：四點多億。"],["羅委員智強：好，原預算是7.24億，追加4.29億，對不對？所以追加將近六成的宣傳經費。我再想請教一下，根據立法院預算中心的資料，追加媒宣預算，如果扣除中選會，總共有多少個機關追加媒宣預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個我要查一下。"],["羅委員智強：90個啦！那你知道有多少機關回編率是百分之百，你知道嗎？都不知道？"],["陳主計長淑姿：查一下，我們馬上查一下。"],["羅委員智強：19個，來，超過1,000萬的14個。那我再請教你，追加通過的話，114年度中央政府媒宣預算比113年增加多少錢？如果追加通過增加多少錢？也不知道？2.51億，增加27.85%。我要跟主計長說，宣傳包裝美化賴清德總統好重要啊！好急迫啊！好必要啊！要拿追加預算急急如律令來去包裝賴清德總統，民調現在下滑嘛，趕快追加預算補宣傳，要嘛給綠媒，要嘛給綠友友，要嘛給網軍，好好包裝，很急啊！我看你們真的好急喔，媒宣費超急的，有急迫性。","沒有關係，這麼愛宣傳的政府，我也無所謂啦。我想請教你下一個更嚴肅的問題，請問立法院是不是通過警消人事條例，提高我們警消的退休所得替代率保障，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有提高軍人的加薪，有沒有？是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["羅委員智強：請問你，為什麼你總預算不編？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分，像軍人的部分，我們追加裡面才加薪，所以……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是我們軍人的待遇提高兩、三萬的那個立法院的提案，你為什麼不編？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它也在聲請釋憲當中……"],["羅委員智強：你胡說八道！釋憲聲請並不妨礙法律效力，除非今天大法官做出緊急處分、凍結法律，你當大家都是法律白癡嗎？法律公布就要執行，釋憲結果出來以後，那才會否決法律的效力，整個政府違法亂政。我跟你講，今天我在這邊為什麼那麼生氣？踐踏警消，踐踏軍人，過去這一年，羅智強、我們國民黨立法院黨團一路的來關注我們警消的退休生活保障，關注我們軍人保家衛國該有的待遇的提升，都通過法律了。","主計長，你知道你的命是誰在保護嗎？遇到治安事件、火災，你的命是誰在保護嗎？你知道嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為這個涉及到整個制度改變的問題。"],["羅委員智強：就是警消在保護啊！國家如果有危難，誰保護你的命？有外敵侵犯，誰保護你？就是軍人。所以除了你這個政府踐踏軍人、踐踏警消，今天就只在那邊爭取賴清德的包裝化妝費，你們還真關心我們的警消跟軍人啦！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員的質詢，謝謝。","下一位請陳俊宇委員質詢，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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我請交通部 運安會主委 教育部體育署運安會主委 教育部 鄭部長體育署"},{"start":21.65,"end":43.006,"text":"好 我們先交通部 就是說部長好 就是今天我想跟部長討論一下有關於夏天的水域安全的一個問題就是說這幾年來我們也可以看到越來越多的人不管是玩自由潛水 水肺潛水潛水活動非常的盛行那再加上接下來的運動部他也會去推廣這個水域安全可是呢 我遭到了民間團體的陳情我發現"},{"start":45.948,"end":60.237,"text":"我們現在在這三個月以內就已經有兩起的人船碰撞有一死兩重傷的一個問題那這個問題是怎麼發生的是有潛水客被螺旋槳撞擊"},{"start":61.758,"end":77.384,"text":"那這不是一個單一的個案喔這是一個系統性的安全性的一個漏洞我想部長一定非常清楚什麼是風險什麼是危險嘛玩潛水活動本身有一些風險存在沒有錯但是他們現在是被螺旋槳撞擊這就是危險的問題"},{"start":79.545,"end":102.644,"text":"那民間呢其實開始呼籲要訂立這個人船必碰規則那我知道我們現在在1977年是有相關的一些海上必碰規則國際公約但是公約處理的就是船跟船人對人沒有處理人對船人船之間的這個問題那觀光署去年其實也有修訂了水域休憩活動管理辦法要求要配置這個潛水旗幟"},{"start":103.465,"end":128.372,"text":"可是我想不管你再怎麼清楚的識別只要船隻沒有減速人員還是會受傷就像是我們畫的人行道一樣你畫了這些白馬線你沒有 你只有去勸導只有去宣導你沒有一些相對的規定那坦白說我們還是很難去避免這樣子的一個問題那現在呢美國 澳洲 紐西蘭 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應該有修正吧你們應該是有提議要修正吧是不是會修正31條"},{"start":258.803,"end":268.708,"text":"跟委員報告因為我沒有參與我最近剛好去市運會好沒關係那你沒有參與那就算了那抱歉那運安會運安會我很快再15秒就好時間到了好不好時間到了不要再贏了謝謝謝謝蔡委員的視訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":989,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時8分）我請交通部、運安會主委，以及教育部體育署。"],["主席：交通部陳部長、運安會主委、教育部鄭部長及體育署。"],["張委員雅琳：我先請教交通部。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天我想跟部長討論一下有關於夏天水域安全的問題，因為這幾年來我們可以看到有越來越多的人，不管是玩自由潛水、水肺潛水，潛水活動非常的盛行，再加上接下來的運動部也會去推廣水域安全。可是我接到民間團體的陳情，我發現我們最近在這三個月以內就已經發生兩起的人船碰撞，造成一死兩重傷的問題，這個問題是怎麼發生的？是有潛水客被螺旋槳撞擊，這不是一個單一的個案，這是一個系統性的、安全性的漏洞，我想部長一定非常清楚，什麼是風險、什麼是危險，玩潛水活動本身有一些風險存在沒有錯，但是他們現在是被螺旋槳撞擊，這就是危險的問題，民間其實已經開始呼籲要訂立人船避碰規則，我知道我們過去在1977年是有相關的一些海上避碰規則國際公約，但是公約處理的就是船跟船、人對人，沒有處理人對船，也就是人船之間的問題。觀光署去年其實也有修訂了水域休憩活動管理辦法，要求要配置潛水旗幟，可是我想不管你再怎麼清楚的識別，只要船隻沒有減速，人員還是會受傷，就像是我們劃設人行道一樣。你劃了這些斑馬線，如果你只有去勸導，只有去宣導，沒有一些相對的規定，坦白說，我們還是很難去避免這樣子的問題出現。現在美國、澳洲、紐西蘭、日本等國家都有船舶接近潛水旗幟的時候，要保持50到100公尺的距離，並且降低船速的規定，夏威夷甚至有慢速無浪原則，我想問，我們現在到底要怎麼辦呢？因為航管局說，船的部分他們只管商船，漁業署說他們只管漁船，觀光署說他們只管潛水區域活動，還是沒有人來處理這個部分，我們總不可能再等到下一個人命出現的時候再來處理吧！我想聽聽看部長您的態度是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，確實這個議題轄管的單位相當多啦，包含交通部，包含農業部都有，還有地方政府也有，光是交通部裡面，觀光署也有，然後航港局也有。"],["張委員雅琳：是。"],["陳部長世凱：確實這個議題我們必須要去面對，因為已經發生事件了，我們在船員法裡面，對於駕駛船舶如何避免碰撞，這個部分我們有明確的規範，這個是針對商船跟航港局所管理……"],["張委員雅琳：我們現在講的是人、船的問題。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們也會提供給漁業署，將規範的部分提供給他們，這個部分我們都會提供，這個沒有問題。但是後續我覺得大家應該要來討論一下，是不是民團這邊也可以協助一下，針對有在潛水的熱區，我們除了航港局要掌握之外，漁業署那邊也要掌握，也要對漁船做宣導，讓他們先知道我們的熱區大概在哪些地方。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，因為時間有限，我想我是不是可以要求交通部可以來協調，好不好？來協調各縣市政府，我們是不是可以提出一份草案，我們這邊也請民間團體一起來協助提出一個草案，然後來試試看。像小琉球現在已經有劃定熱區了，有些範圍先試行看看，是不是可以這樣子？三個月內，好不好？三個月，好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來協調這件事。謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：運安會主委，抱歉，因為時間很有限，對不起，運安會主委下一個好了，我先請體育署，抱歉，因為時間很有限。","體育署，我想確認一下，因為我之前一直在要求有關於狼師、狼教練應該要公告，你們8月15號開會，那決議是什麼？"],["洪副署長志昌：我可能會後再跟委員，因為我不太……"],["張委員雅琳：現在直接告訴我，好不好？決議是什麼？"],["洪副署長志昌：因為我沒有參與……"],["張委員雅琳：決議是不是會公告？會不會公告？"],["洪副署長志昌：應該還在討論當中嘛，我們再給委員……"],["張委員雅琳：不對吧，應該有修正吧，你們應該是有提議要修正吧，是不是會修正第三十一條？"],["洪副署長志昌：跟委員報告，因為我沒有參與，我最近剛好去世運會……"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，你沒有參與，那就算了。","抱歉，運安會的部分，我很快，再15秒就好。"],["主席：時間到了，好不好？時間到了，不要再延了，謝謝，謝謝張委員的質詢。","下一位請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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未來我們跟美國的出口有這個跟其他相比有利基的嗎所以我們在這個出口管制上面會有很多的一些這個資訊的一個監控那如果這個大陸這邊有一些傾銷的行為的話我們也會有展開一些傾銷的一個調查那甚至就是說如果有違反這個相關的這個"},{"start":244.974,"end":247.537,"text":"但是你們兩位都不知道現在目前台美正在談判的就是關稅談判"},{"start":262.037,"end":268.603,"text":"內容你們都不知道但是有沒有辦法深化這樣子的產業你們也沒辦法知道"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時59分）謝謝主席。我想請行政院副秘書長，還有經濟部次長。"],["主席：請副秘書長、經濟部次長。"],["李副秘書長國興：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：副秘書長好。我現在問的問題絕對是行政院層級的。我想請問，以對美談判來說，像南韓是由總統李在明直接去美國談，還帶了所有的企業家以及所有的關鍵技術，希望能跟美國有深化合作。目前我們由行政院副院長層級到美國談，但沒有談出什麼，你們對所有的內容保密，也沒有談出什麼，甚至還談成這樣子！看到南韓、日本，我們有沒有要改變策略？"],["李副秘書長國興：跟委員報告，目前談判還在持續進行中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道在進行中，我是問有沒有改變策略？你沒回答我！"],["李副秘書長國興：這部分涉及談判小組的決策問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是不是行政院層級的問題？也不能回答嗎？"],["李副秘書長國興：這部分我沒有參與，抱歉。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們到底要不要擴大跟美國在其他方面，例如SMR核能、航太、關鍵礦產等進行技術合作，次長？這部分你有沒有了解？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，因為我沒有參與到這部分，所以我也沒有辦法在這邊回答。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在場的誰有參與？何志偉應該沒參與吧？我們之前一直在強調非紅供應鏈，這個經濟部也做了非常多，這個有參與了吧，對不對？"],["何次長晉滄：是，有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們也做了非常多，那有沒有辦法藉由這一次跟美國的談判，能夠有一個什麼共同的基地，或者是技術中心等等的，你們認為非紅供應鏈是未來跟美國……可能是我們輸美最重要、有利基的商品嘛，那有沒有辦法有深化的合作？你們是經濟部啊，請你回答，目前在美國有沒有什麼能夠深化供應鏈整合的合作，可以拿出來在這一次談啊？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，臺美之間的合作，在一些科技面的部分，像半導體，還有無人機的部分，其實過去都有一些技術合作的經驗，剛剛委員提到的非紅供應鏈的部分，也是美方非常重視的部分，所以未來……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊，未來我們跟美國的出口，有這個跟其他相比更有利基的嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：所以我們在出口管制上面，會有很多資訊方面的監控，如果大陸那邊有一些傾銷行為的話，我們也會展開傾銷的調查，甚至就是說，如果有違反相關洗產地現象的話，我們也會按照貿易法的規定給予嚴懲，甚至也給予進口廠商停權的處分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是你們兩位都不知道，目前臺美正在談判的就是關稅談判，但內容你們都不知道，但是有沒有辦法深化這樣子的產業，你們也沒辦法知道？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：我想產業合作深化部分，目前來講，我們會談到供應鏈合作的部分。"],["主席：細節部分，你們再跟謝委員報告，好不好？"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員的質詢。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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行政院副秘書長還有財政部長還有行政院副秘書長"},{"start":19.622,"end":32.608,"text":"好 三位首長好我想今天是追加預算的尋答我有幾個非常重要的問題我想請教一下總統府的部分在去年113年預算是151億然後決算的時候還剩了3.58億今年的預算已經暴增到156億將近增加了5億為什麼還要再追加3000億"},{"start":48.378,"end":72.934,"text":"你們去年錢都花不完3.58億的剩餘今年又幫你們增加了5億的錢整個加起來應該多了7、8億的錢但是你們沒有用完也就算了為什麼今年還要追加3000多萬黃委員可以允許我把數字快速請你簡要說明好嗎原因是什麼就好你不用跟我講數字我們這一次的預算法定預算114年度其實只有10億而已喔"},{"start":74.028,"end":101.628,"text":"所以其他都是什麼錢就是你去年為什麼剩下3.58億我們去年並沒有剩下3.58億我的數字是決算數字是審計部的數字行政院副秘書長請你回答我行政院在去年的預算是345億剩餘用不完的錢是12億今年你們的預算也暴增到362億然後增加了將近7億今年你還要再追加45億行政院在幹嘛呢"},{"start":103.669,"end":124.408,"text":"委員的數字可能有誤解那是行政院主管不是行政院院本部是 所以我現在就要問你啊你主管的業務你還不知道嗎主管業務不是我主管的是你總署主管的所以你今天來代表行政院但是你沒有辦法回答行政院的問題我回答院本部的問題只能回答院本部是 謝謝所以你也不知道你為什麼去年設這麼多錢好 財政部"},{"start":127.318,"end":148.187,"text":"部長你去年也剩很多錢啊你去年剩下了142億沒有花光啊你現在又來追加五千多萬我要問的是三位喔今天追加預算要符合預算法79條如果沒有符合相關的規定的話你們現在預算全部暴增但是又來用追加預算"},{"start":149.127,"end":165.594,"text":"我个人认为理由要说清楚跟委员说明一下我们114年度所编的预算比113年少30亿因为我们是逐一去检讨计划但是你剩下一百多亿但是剩下有一些是属于债务还息的部分因为我们的债务条度我们提早还债所以你剩下的钱"},{"start":165.894,"end":193.462,"text":"是债务还息那个钱是不能拿来做其他用是债务还息的我要说的是三位你们必须要说明清楚今天立法院要通过到你们要不要追加预算你要连说清楚是你的预算增加你的剩余这么多但是你还要今天来再用追加预算表示你们的对于预算跟业务的了解我觉得是有很大的问题好 总统府可以回答了吗"},{"start":196.974,"end":213.493,"text":"各位委員報告我們的執行率其實來到95%那扣除掉這些人事費用還有剩下3000多萬所以去年花不完今年還欠錢但是你預算增加5億要怎麼解釋呢你總統有新增什麼偉大的業務嗎"},{"start":215.663,"end":244.195,"text":"我們並沒有增加五億沒有增加那你增加五億是哪裡來的我們可以快速跟委員報告這個是我們下面還有國安會服不符合預算法79條必須要清楚的對外建設委員是專業的所以這個部分絕對尊重但是我們的執行率是高的這個跟委員報告我希望今天追加預算不是只有看到你們用地方政府的一般補助款來夾帶你們自己各單位的追加預算我覺得是很不合宜啊"},{"start":244.835,"end":271.674,"text":"因為地方政府的一般補助款被砍掉現在用追加預算來立法院其實是有擄人熱鼠的嫌疑啊綁著地方政府補助款逼著立法院一定要通過然後夾帶出這麼多奇怪的預算要拜託委員支持這一次的預算是史上煽動最多的我還是認為說三個單位請你給我一個完整的書面說明我會在今天的部分加入相關的代替決議拜託委員支持 懇請委員支持好 下一位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":905,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時54分）謝謝主席。請總統府何副秘書長、行政院副秘書長及財政部長。"],["主席：請總統府何副秘書長、行政院副秘書長、財政部長。"],["黃委員珊珊：三位首長好。今天是追加預算的詢答，我有幾個非常重要的問題想請教。總統府去年（113年）的預算是151億，決算時還剩3.58億；今年預算已經暴增到156億，增加了將近5億，現在為什麼還要再追加三千萬？"],["何副秘書長志偉：謝謝委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們去年錢都花不完，有3.58億的剩餘，今年又幫你們增加了5億的錢，整個加起來應該多了七、八億。你們沒有用完也就算了，為什麼現在還要追加三千多萬？"],["何副秘書長志偉：黃委員，可以允許我把數字快速……"],["黃委員珊珊：請你簡要說明好嗎？原因是什麼就好，不用跟我講數字。"],["何副秘書長志偉：這一次114年的法定預算其實只有10億而已……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以其他都是什麼錢？去年為什麼剩下3.58億？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們去年並沒有剩下3.58億……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的決算數字是審計部的數字。行政院副秘書長，請你回答我，行政院去年的預算是345億，剩餘用不完的錢是12億，結果你們今年的預算也暴增到362億，增加了將近7億，現在你還要再追加45億？行政院在幹嘛呢？"],["李副秘書長國興：跟委員報告，委員對數字可能有誤解。那是行政院主管，不是行政院院本部。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我現在就要問你，你主管的業務你還不知道嗎？"],["李副秘書長國興：業務不是我主管的，是主計總處主管的。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是你主管的？所以你今天代表行政院來，但你沒有辦法回答行政院的問題？"],["李副秘書長國興：我回答院本部的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：只能回答院本部？"],["李副秘書長國興：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你也不知道為什麼去年剩這麼多錢？","財政部莊部長，你去年也剩很多錢啊！去年剩下142億沒有花光，現在又追加五千多萬。我請問三位，要追加預算必須符合預算法第七十九條規定……"],["莊部長翠雲：我能不能跟委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果不符合相關規定……你們今年預算全部暴增，現在又來追加預算？我個人認為理由要說清楚！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明一下，我們114年度所編的預算比113年少30億，因為我們是逐一去檢討計畫……"],["黃委員珊珊：但你還剩下一百多億！"],["莊部長翠雲：剩下的有一些是屬於債務還息，因為債務調度關係，我們提早還債……"],["黃委員珊珊：你剩下的錢、你理財很好……"],["莊部長翠雲：那筆錢不能作為他用，是債務還息，國債付息的錢，所以我們推動業務……"],["黃委員珊珊：三位，你們必須說明清楚，今天立法院要通過追加預算，所以你要說清楚，既然你的預算增加，但你去年剩餘又這麼多，今天還要來追加預算，表示你們對於預算跟業務的了解有很大問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：但業務的推動確實需要經費。"],["黃委員珊珊：總統府可以回答了嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：跟委員報告，我們的執行率其實來到95%，扣除掉人事費用還剩下三千多萬，執行率是很高的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以去年花不完，今年還欠錢？你預算增加5億要怎麼解釋？總統府有新增什麼偉大的業務嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們並沒有增加5億。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有增加？"],["何副秘書長志偉：這個我可以快速跟你……"],["黃委員珊珊：增加5億是哪裡來的？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我可以快速跟委員報告，這是國安會……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要說的是，符不符合預算法第七十九條規定，你們必須要清楚對外解釋……"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員是專業的，所以這部分絕對尊重，但是我們的執行率是高的，這個跟委員報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：今天的追加預算，不能只看到你們用地方政府的一般補助款來夾帶你們自己各單位的追加預算，這樣我覺得很不合宜！地方政府的一般補助款被砍掉，現在用追加預算方式送來立法院，其實是有擄人勒贖的嫌疑，綁著給地方政府的補助款，逼立法院一定要通過，還夾帶出這麼多奇怪的預算……"],["何副秘書長志偉：拜託委員支持，這一次的預算是史上刪凍最多的，所以才需要追加……"],["黃委員珊珊：我還是請三個單位給我一個完整的書面說明，我今天會提出相關附帶決議。"],["何副秘書長志偉：拜託委員支持，懇請委員支持。"],["主席：下一位請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝經濟部啦那接下來內政部跟海委會兩位部長和主委啦那因為時間說控制得這麼嚴格那我其實是想表達我就是在內政委員會裡面"},{"start":226.321,"end":233.064,"text":"這一次的預算確實被刪了非常的多包括了生活圈道路系統這邊刪了這麼多永續行人安全計畫也通通都刪了嘛所以我的縣道105的這個部分其實我要評估也竟然跟我說有危險"},{"start":244.309,"end":260.936,"text":"人行道計畫也要停污水下水道甚至我們白袍湖社會住宅全刪所以這一次我雖然看到了在追加預算當中您有提出相關的追加可是我也看到了有委員提出要把內政部的預算是全部刪除部長全部刪除啊"},{"start":264.025,"end":281.97,"text":"那海委會一樣啊海委會 你的艦艇到底交了沒有有沒有違款可以付還要再付違約利息主委 這個我等一下希望我們在討論的時候審查都要能夠說清楚啊好 審查時候再來說清楚好 下一位請鄭天才委員質詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":872,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時44分）謝謝主席，我想請主計長、經濟部次長、內政部部長、海委會主委，謝謝。不好意思，一次請各位上臺，因為時間有限。"],["主席：好，請主計長、海委會、經濟部，財政部、金管會也一起。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我就按照順序，主計長好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：剛剛在這個議場當中，接連聽了幾位委員的質詢，有提到了統籌分配稅款及一般性補助款這樣的狀況，我剛剛聽到的用詞是說，其實在中央跟地方之間，統籌分配稅款、一般性補助款都是非常重要的財源，而且有行之有年的分配公式，大家都很習慣，希望未來不要黑箱決定。剛剛您有聽到這樣的質詢，對不對？你的意見是你會好好注意，妥善分配，對不對？坦白講，我聽了實在是很感慨啦！這一段話：「有既定的公式，希望能夠好好的討論，不要黑箱」，不就是當時我們在處理財劃法的時候，我們的主張、我們的要求嗎？我們不是正要求說這一套財劃法當然應該要改，身為新北市的代表，我主張新北市要有更多的錢、更多的預算，可是問題是，為什麼最後的分配是花蓮增加的比例比我400萬人口的大市新北市還要多呢？我就不懂這個公式是什麼嘛，所以這樣的一套制度下去之後，今天也已經走到這裡了，我們雖然不願意，但時間確實是來到這裡了。所以主計長，我覺得當家的也就是要擔責任，我期勉你在這個時段好好地冷靜下來，我們誠意地跟地方好好的就我們未來的國家總體財源做一個分配，辛苦了！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但我希望你們好好的跟地方討論，未來事權、錢要怎麼分配、怎麼做，重新把公式訂出來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是我對主計長的期許，謝謝主計長，請回。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：經濟部，利用短短的時間跟你請教全國電纜地下化的部分，這次的風災看到了屏鵝公路因為電纜地下化，所以沒有斷電，很好！蘭嶼也地下化，也沒有斷電，所以卓院長在8月16日的時候說他支持啟動全國電纜地下化的評估。經濟部，有這件事情，對不對？"],["何次長晉滄：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：請問你錢從哪裡來？台電上一次沒有被撥補啊，去年的預算沒有被撥補，特別條例要增加的也沒有被增加，那明年的總預算你有嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，昨天曾董事長也承諾我們評估報告大概2個月內會提出來，這個電纜地下化的經費是一個很龐大的經費。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯啊！所以先評估，我連你評估的錢在哪裡，坦白講，我都還不知道，因為台電的錢就是一直被卡住，所以既然全國現在都支持電纜地下化，經濟部我請你好好的說明，把錢要從哪裡來說明清楚，不然不要說地下化的評估，連我現在地方電纜地下化工程做到一半，台電都沒有錢可以做了，這件事情應該要講清楚嘛，是誰卡住了錢，讓我們的工程不能進行？這個應該要做到啦！好，謝謝經濟部。"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：接下來，內政部部長跟海委會主委，時間控制得這麼嚴格，我其實是想表達，在內政委員會裡面，這一次的預算確實被刪了非常多，包括生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫這邊刪了這麼多，永續提升行人安全計畫也統統刪了嘛，我的市道105要評估，竟然也跟我說有危險！人行道計畫也要停、污水下水道建設計畫，甚至我們白匏湖社會住宅也全刪，所以這一次我雖然看到了在追加預算當中，您有提出相關的追加，可是我也看到了有委員提出要把內政部的預算全部刪除。部長，全部刪除啊！","海委會一樣，海委會，你的艦艇到底交了沒有？有沒有尾款可以付？還要再付違約利息！主委，這個部分我希望等一下我們在討論、審查的時候都能夠說清楚。"],["主席：好，審查的時候再來說清楚。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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新北"},{"start":111.952,"end":127.279,"text":"桃園其實都有共通的想法還不只是只有藍營的執政縣市新制的這些補助款的處理形式未來會造成很多的紛爭我再次提醒你要思考清楚不要讓人家覺得"},{"start":128.059,"end":149.116,"text":"鬥完在野黨之後才講說要朝野對話現在變成跟各縣市的市民縣民在做鬥爭跟各縣市的縣市首長在做鬥爭以上是我我對於整個統籌分配款跟一般性的補助款做的跟您做的提醒好你請回接下來我要請衛福部部長部長部長請"},{"start":157.591,"end":174.121,"text":"部長辛苦你了謝謝你雖然留任時間沒有剩下幾天但是我第一個我還是要肯定你包括在過去很多醫界關注的政策你都一一落實完成第二我長期關注的帶狀性炮診疫苗的風險評估報告"},{"start":176.422,"end":195.088,"text":"我相信這個是過去你無論當立委或過去這幾年你聽到這是很重要因為肥腸癌也好帶狀性泡疹現在在台灣大家得了一生很可能再犯所以那個再犯率很高或長期的疼痛所以這個風險評估報告我仍舊希望不管你在哪裡都可以繼續關注這些事情"},{"start":196.108,"end":210.297,"text":"第二件事情 我現在57秒我要關注的就是我們現在的醫療院所的HIS系統這個HIS系統當然是好事因為它無論是藉由系統的統一規範 應用程式它可以整合我們數位醫療平台"},{"start":211.458,"end":237.848,"text":"這個系統第一個我是肯定的但是對於醫學中心他可能有經費因為這是雲端的整個建置系統統一但是對於地方的醫療系統啦他可能在建置這個系統過程當中他常要更新廠商每一次來一年更新一次明年要更新一次對於很多醫療小診所他就是一筆不小的費用這個怎麼處理我要聽當然我支持整個"},{"start":238.568,"end":261.216,"text":"雲端系統的統一那第二個就是因為像我們疾管署為了簡化疫苗處置申報標準我們改採由HIS系統連接到我們全國預防接種系統管理連接到我們現在的NIS系統HIS連接到NIS這個我也支持但是我們另外還有一個表格FEAR的表格要做交換就是一套一套的表格對於大的系統OK"},{"start":262.056,"end":271.238,"text":"但是我提醒對於醫療院所基層的是很辛苦的所以第一我有三點再給我三十秒就好了雲端HIT系統 第一個要整合第二個我們希望配合在HIT系統還沒補給之前我們的政策更新的費用我覺得我們要 時間到喔 時間到喔 好不好我們會來錄實"},{"start":286.221,"end":303.366,"text":"請放心你提的都很重要我們已經積極在進行要補助喔要補助喔感謝委員支持今天非常感恩抱歉抱歉蘇喬漢委員之心報告委員會我們現在可以用餐喔如果便當到你面前你可以用喔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時39分）我可不可以請一下主計長以及衛福部部長？"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我剛才聽到幾位委員在質詢，新制的統籌分配款跟一般性補助款，在地方上執行是完全兩大塊不一樣的項目，對於地方補助款，這是執行中央跟地方大家共同認同的很多業務，大家可以來執行，目前是針對地方的補助款，你們現在調整了一個新制的補助方式，這補助方式未來是各單位用政策性方式讓各縣市來跟各部會做溝通需求。第一個，過去行之有年的一套公式，對於公式的內容，我們可以重新再做討論，但是這個黑箱的新制辦法，第一個，未來會增加中央跟地方要耗費更多的時間來做討論，未來你們的想法，地方覺得一定要的或者很有需求的，雖然中央覺得不需要，但是憑良心講，站在第一線，了解各縣市居民第一線的需求，他們是站在第一線，無論是地方縣市政府，無論是各政黨執政的縣市，他們都希望有執政的亮點。臺北市跟臺南可能不一樣，因為城鄉差距，每一個希望推動的政策不一樣，所以這就是為什麼我們覺得在這個時間點上丟出來這些問題很可怕。","再來，我覺得蔣萬安還有好幾位包括臺南、新北、桃園其實都有共通的想法，還不是只有藍營執政的縣市，新制的這些補助款的處理形式未來會造成很多的紛爭，我再次提醒你，要思考清楚，不要讓人家覺得鬥完在野黨之後才講說要朝野對話，現在變成跟各縣市的市民、縣民在做鬥爭，跟各縣市的縣市首長在做鬥爭。以上是我對於整個統籌分配稅款、一般性補助款跟您做的提醒。好，您請回。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：接下來我要請衛福部部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，辛苦你了！"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝你，雖然留任時間沒有剩下幾天，但是第一個，我還是要肯定你，包括過去很多醫界關注的政策，你都一一落實完成。"],["邱部長泰源：感謝。"],["李委員彥秀：第二，我長期關注的帶狀疱疹疫苗風險評估報告，我相信這個是過去無論你當立委，或是過去這幾年你聽到認為這是很重要的，因為「皮蛇」帶狀性疱疹現在在臺灣大家得了一身，也有可能再犯，因為再犯率很高，也會產生長期的疼痛，所以這個風險評估報告我仍舊希望不管你在哪裡，都可以繼續關注這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["李委員彥秀：我要關注的第二件事情就是我們現在的醫療院所HIS系統，這個HIS系統當然是好事，因為它藉由系統的統一規範應用程式，可以整合我們的數位醫療平臺，這個系統我是肯定的。對於醫學中心來說，它可能有經費，因為這是整個雲端系統的統一建置，但是對於地方的醫療系統，它可能在建置這個系統的過程當中常要更新，廠商一年要來更新一次，明年要再更新一次，對於很多醫療小診所，它就是一筆不小的費用，這個怎麼處理？當然，我支持整個雲端系統的統一。","第二個，疾管署為了簡化疫苗處置申報標準，改採由HIS系統連接到全國預防接種系統來管理，連接到我們現在的NIIS系統，HIS連接到NIIS，這個我也支持，但是我們另外還有一個FHIR的表格要做交換，就是一套、一套的表格，對於大的系統OK，但是我要提醒的就是，這對於基層的醫療院所是很辛苦的，所以我有三點，再給我30秒就好了。"],["主席：時間到了，不要了，時間不給了，該結束了。"],["李委員彥秀：雲端HIS系統第一個要整合，第二個我們希望在HIS系統還沒普及之前，我們的政策、更新的費用，我覺得要有所補助，好不好？"],["主席：好，時間到了。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們這個都會來進行，都會來落實，請放心，您提的都很重要，我們已經積極在進行，感謝委員支持。"],["李委員彥秀：好，要補助喔，謝謝！"],["主席：今天非常趕，抱歉、抱歉！","報告委員會，我們現在可以用餐，如果便當送到你面前，你可以用餐，謝謝。","再次跟委員抱歉，因為今天要處理的事情太多了，時間非常趕，所以只能夠給4分鐘。","好，我們請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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我們請主席長陳主席長請"},{"start":20.799,"end":47.647,"text":"委員好來 主席長好 辛苦了那今天這個台北市長蔣萬安他去行政院開這個院會他很生氣他說為什麼中央要裝冷氣啊那在電費要的地方來出然後新北市長侯友宜呢在上禮拜跟了一大堆的這個校長講他說你們校長啊你們可能不知道接下來的這個冷氣中央不出錢了你們要由學校自己來負責"},{"start":49.417,"end":65.564,"text":"然後呢 侯永瑜就拍拍胸部沒有關係 新北市來幫你們出我就覺得很奇怪啊請教一下這個主席長這個明年給這個地方的這個統籌分配款有沒有增加他們有沒有錢來付這個電費啊"},{"start":67.659,"end":94.642,"text":"明年因為財化法的關係我們給地方的統籌分配稅款會增加4165億那它原來就有4676億兩個合起來就8000多億然後財化法又規定一般性補助款要維持然後縣市又要求希望我們計劃型補助那個補助的比率不能變動還有已經合訂的要照常執行這是我們沒辦法負擔的"},{"start":95.202,"end":108.95,"text":"所以這個部分一定是要把原來地方制度法規定屬於地方自治的事項回歸給地方去編列這才有辦法解決這個按照地方制度法的第18條第19條還有國民教育法的第8條的規定"},{"start":112.892,"end":132.707,"text":"轄區內的學校經費是屬於地方政府的職責但是因為過去中央錢比較多所以我們有補助地方但是如果現在地方拿到統籌分配款比過去多了比如像台北市比過去多了444億新北市比過去多了410億那他們有沒有錢來繳這個電費"},{"start":136.457,"end":156.394,"text":"他是絕對有錢的像如果說台北市的話我光是統籌分配稅款加我現在目前一般性社福的分配如果光是這兩項他就多出一百多億計劃型的部分還沒有合但是沒有辦法還沒有合給他這個部分但是他光是這兩項加起來就增加一百多億"},{"start":156.894,"end":175.36,"text":"所以主席長我跟你講這是所有我們所有的內閣部會首長都在這邊我就跟你講現在不論是蔣萬安侯友宜或是盧秀燕他就一條一條拿出來跟你講他說他以前過去都是中央編的為什麼現在變成地方編但是沒關係地方咬緊牙關也要編"},{"start":176.32,"end":196.005,"text":"但是其實是中央給地方的錢啊就本來是中央的錢變成這個地方的統售分配款地方的統售分配款也增加了所以本來要由地方來出的事這些錢不是就應該由地方來出嗎這就是我們當初來修財化法的時候一直提到就是說我們的財權跟事權一定要分清楚不要拿錢不辦事嘛但是我跟你講你們現在吃虧了"},{"start":197.985,"end":213.195,"text":"現在他就會跟所有的地方的不論那些校長不論那些地方那些人就跟你們講這些本來是中央要給的經費他現在就跟你講啦租金的補貼啦學校的電費啦弱勢學生的營養午餐費啦中央以後都不出了"},{"start":214.176,"end":239.677,"text":"以後由地方自己出那明明就是地方有增加這些經費但是他不會跟你講所以我要求主計處你們要把本來由這個中央出的現在因為統籌分配款地方增加了由地方出的有哪一些是由以前中央出現在改由地方出但是那是因為你們統籌分配款增加了把它一條一條列出來好不好你們有這個準備了嗎有有嗎有這些資料了嗎"},{"start":241.279,"end":268.998,"text":"如果有這些資料你給我一份我跟你講接下來像蔣萬安這一種的跑去說啊中央不出了我地方出會越來越多像蔣萬安這種的那原本就是因為地方統籌分款增加了嘛增加了你有足夠的費用可以去處理這件事情但是呢你們要做好防衛不然以後一條一條出來講都說中央不出了地方出那原本地方就有錢出了嘛因為財務法已經通過新的財務法通過了嘛把這資料準備一份給我謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時35分）謝謝主席，我們請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好，辛苦了。今天臺北市長蔣萬安去行政院開院會，他很生氣，他說為什麼中央要裝冷氣，電費要由地方來出？新北市長侯友宜在上禮拜跟一大堆的校長講，他說校長你們可能不知道，接下來的冷氣中央不出錢了，要由學校自己來負責，然後侯友宜就拍拍胸脯說：沒有關係，新北市來幫你們出。我就覺得很奇怪，請教一下主計長，明年給地方的統籌分配款有沒有增加？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["李委員坤城：他們有沒有錢來付這個電費？"],["陳主計長淑姿：明年因為財劃法的關係，我們給地方的統籌分配稅款會增加4,165億，原來就有4,676億，兩個合起來就有八千多億。而財劃法又規定一般性補助款要維持，縣市又要求、希望計畫型補助的補助比率不能變動，以及已經核定的要照常執行，這是我們沒辦法負擔的，所以這個部分一定是要把原來地方制度法規定屬於地方自治的事項回歸給地方去編列，這才有辦法解決。"],["李委員坤城：按照地方制度法第十八條、第十九條及國民教育法第八條的規定，轄區內的學校經費是屬於地方政府的職責，但是因為過去中央錢比較多，所以有補助地方，但是如果現在地方拿到的統籌分配款比過去多，比如臺北市比過去多了444億、新北市比過去多了410億，他們有沒有錢來繳這個電費？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他們是絕對有錢的，像臺北市的話，光是統籌分配稅款加上目前一般性社福的分配，光是這兩項，它就多出一百多億，雖然計畫型的部分還沒有核給它，但光是這兩項加起來就增加一百多億，絕對是有能力去……"],["李委員坤城：主計長，我跟你講，所有的內閣、部會首長都在這邊，我就跟你講，現在不論是蔣萬安、侯友宜或盧秀燕，他就一條一條拿出來講，他說過去都是中央編的，為什麼現在變成地方編？但是沒關係，地方咬緊牙關也要編。但其實是中央給地方的錢，本來是中央的錢，後來變成地方的統籌分配款，地方的統籌分配款也增加了，所以本來要由地方來做的事，這些錢不就應該由地方來出嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["李委員坤城：這就是我們當初在修財劃法的時候所一直提到的，就是財權跟事權一定要分清楚，不要拿錢不辦事嘛！但是我跟你講，你們現在吃虧了，所以他就跟所有地方的那些校長或地方的那些人講，這些本來是中央要給的經費，他現在就講，租金的補貼、學校的電費及弱勢學生的營養午餐費，中央以後都不出了，以後由地方自己出，明明地方有增加這些經費，但是他不會跟他們講。所以我要求主計總處，你們要把本來由中央出的，現在因為統籌分配款地方增加了，由地方出的有哪一些是以前由中央出，現在改由地方出，但那是因為他們的統籌分配增加了，把它一條一條列出來，好不好？你們有這個準備了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["李委員坤城：有嗎？有這些資料了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們正在準備。"],["李委員坤城：如果有這些資料，你給我一份，我跟你講，接下來像蔣萬安這一種的，跑去說中央不出了，由地方出，會越來越多像蔣萬安這種的，原本就是因為地方統籌分配款增加了，增加了就有足夠的費用可以去處理這件事情，但是你們要做好防衛，不然以後一條一條出來講，都說中央不出的地方出，但原本地方就有錢出，因為新的財劃法通過了嘛！把這資料準備一份給我，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","下一位會請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝啊謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時30分）謝謝主席。本席邀請數發部，今天是次長嗎？及NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：請數發部的長官、NCC的代理主委。"],["葉次長寧：委員好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長好、兩位好。在這次臺南的災情，其中大家都知道非常慘重，有一點就是因為除了停電停水以外，整個通訊網路全部斷掉了，造成災民對外求救完全沒有辦法聯絡，我們要進去救災也產生了極大的困難，甚至連手機Google地圖都找不到，所以後來我們就檢討這一次為什麼會斷訊的原因。當時我就有質詢NCC，請NCC要來開放災難漫遊，因為臺灣三大電信系統──中華電信、遠傳還有台哥大，中華電信的基礎建設是最好的，所以在災區搶修的時候，它是最早有訊號的，但其他兩家電信業者的使用者還沒訊號時，如果我們有開放災難漫遊，他就可以跳過來使用，我們去國外旅遊，都知道國外有國際漫遊，但國內沒有災難漫遊。另外，救災的部分，政府原本有建立一個PPDR，就是公共安全與救難應變通訊系統，它指的也是在災難的時候，電信業者能夠讓出一定的頻寬給政府使用，在這次的救災我們也看見，因為政府要救災，跟一般民用大家都混雜擠在網路上，所以也造成救災上的困難。但是我們今天要追加預算，我要提這一點，就是在審查總預算的時候，在野黨其實就把這兩項政府要做的增強通信韌性的預算全部刪除掉了，我跟你說，亂砍預算這個也是個證明。","我們來看一下災難漫遊，災難漫遊原本都是編在數發部的獎補助款，數發部這次的追加預算，我希望這兩個事情要優先來做，災難漫遊NCC已經有協調開放、有認證過了嘛！我們請陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，災難漫遊我們在8月7號已經啟動做宣導性的，然後定期檢討，上禮拜的21號已經開過檢討會，未來要朝著SOP制度化來做，訂定一些相關作業要點。"],["林委員俊憲：好，但這樣的預算之前是編列在數發部，對不對？次長，在數發部的……"],["葉次長寧：是，我們先前有一個前導的測試計畫，大概2,000萬左右。"],["林委員俊憲：對，我秀出來給你看，在這個預算裡面，當時被在野黨給砍掉了，就是「支持數位韌性之跨業者行動網路接取驗證」，你們這項預算被砍掉了，還有建立我國公共安全與救難應變（PPDR）通訊系統的驗證……"],["葉次長寧：是，因為刪減預算的部分……"],["林委員俊憲：這個也被砍掉了，這就是我說的，亂砍預算在這次救災就嚴重影響到救災的通訊，所以這次的預算追加回來，我認為這兩項業務應該列在裡面，因為你們被砍掉了35億，我看這次的追加預算，數發部只有追加12億，其中本部預算追加6億，我不知道這6億你們要怎麼去分配？如果要分配的話，這幾個應該是列為優先。"],["葉次長寧：是的，有關PPDR的部分，我們有追加6,000萬，希望能夠更儘快來做。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主席、謝謝兩位。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的質詢。","下一位請麥玉珍，麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員不在，感謝。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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市長我延續昨天還沒問完的就是說這一次丹納斯風災還有隔天的豪雨成災彰化地方有很多地窪的地方就都淹水例如說鹿港 彰化市也有一部分彰化的西南角方院20大城這邊主堂也都有淹水的狀況"},{"start":33.251,"end":49.859,"text":"那我想請教就是說我們這一次的追加預算裡面有一個水資源的工程經費總共19億多我想請教的就是說除了這些原本可能我們原本的這些治水的計畫"},{"start":51.339,"end":74.096,"text":"低窪的地區要怎麼來防洪防災治水我是不是可以請市長針對這一部分可以再做一個說明那我認為就是說所有的防洪治水的部分應該不可以只有一個單點應該是要全面去評估不然你現在就是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳"},{"start":76.938,"end":87.437,"text":"我是不是可以先請次長針對這一部分未來在我們彰化這一邊鹿港這個淹水的部分那我們有什麼樣的計畫可以來解決這個淹水的部分"},{"start":88.001,"end":113.702,"text":"好跟委員報告我們現在治水的方向就是一個系統性治水就是可能跨部位大家一起來因為它這個不是只有一個單點而已它可能只有上中下游甚至就是說可能還有農水路還有我們的一般的區域的排水這系統其實我們都會一起把它跨部位大家一起來做整治好那我希望就是說真的要做到跨部會是"},{"start":114.363,"end":141.239,"text":"因為像有的下游的部分做好了可是中上游可能是在市區他可能會有遇到一些困難那就要跨部會的去協調可是這個跨部會的協調可能就會延宕很久所以會造成這樣子風災來那個颱風來或者是好雨來就淹水一年可能淹了十幾次我們希望就是說這個我們自己中央在執政我們希望能夠真正的跨部會去解決這個淹水的這個問題好不好好"},{"start":144.841,"end":150.824,"text":"那接下來我可不可以請一下那個農業部部長農業部的陳部長請部長我想請教就是說因為前陣子這個颱風然後豪雨那地方有很多譬如說養豬啊養雞啊可能就淹水那豬隻也損失非常的多我想請教因為接下來就是中原普渡"},{"start":173.695,"end":188.332,"text":"那再接下來就是中秋節那我今天看到一個新聞就是說這個營養午餐可能吃不到豬肉改由這個雞肉來取代那我想請教部長針對這樣的一個事情那我們要怎麼去解決"},{"start":189.033,"end":203.303,"text":"不要讓這個民眾要買豬肉來拜拜買不到那中秋節要烤肉買不到豬肉那豬肉的這個價格又一直在上漲那血統吃不到豬肉我覺得這是一個很嚴重的問題我是不是可以先請部長"},{"start":204.444,"end":208.207,"text":"我謝謝委員 針對最近一段時間豬肉的價格上漲我們大概從上個月開始就啟動了所謂冷凍工會這邊減少去拍賣場去抓豬第二個部分我們透過台糖去調度豬開始的時候現在的豬價大概回穩從過往的110塊現在已經降到大概99到100之間已經到了一個合理的區間"},{"start":228.104,"end":242.649,"text":"所以后续我们会持续的去监控然后去做透过调度的方式来维持稳定的一个租价是那现在你有看到今天的新闻吗就是说这个学童的南部学童热营养午餐"},{"start":243.43,"end":257.509,"text":"可能會吃不到豬肉那類似這樣的一個問題當然我不希望就是說因為在豬肉的這個可能會用得非常多中元普渡中秋節可能都會用得非常的多那我想請教部長"},{"start":258.47,"end":284.07,"text":"不論是價格可能會有一些波動價格可能會提高那你剛剛有說可能會用一些這個豬肉釋出可能讓這個價格能夠平穩那是不是還有其他的方式讓這個學童的這個營養午餐確實能夠吃到這個豬肉我跟委員報告因為學童午餐的部分他是用合約的方式年度是在跟學校去訂那個價格是固定的你把資料給我們我們再跟那個去討論時間到了好 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腦農的"},{"start":185.626,"end":210.386,"text":"老農津貼的排富條款隨著從上回定的排富的標準那民國100年到現在14年這14年來我們整體社會經濟的進步社會財富的增加本來就幫把這個老農津貼的排富條款把它提高那個標準"},{"start":212.13,"end":230.599,"text":"我的提案裡面那個一點都沒有錯啊那個金額也不高財產從500萬提高到900萬每年收入從50萬提高到60萬你們也沒有一個答覆要不然你們的對策市場你們都是認為說通通不要動就對了"},{"start":233.001,"end":249.653,"text":"那這樣我們國會議員在監督你們什麼我跟委員簡單的說明就是老農今天排富條款的部分我們已經跟行政院報告過然後也現在在行政院已經審查所以預計在下個會議期會把老農今天排富條款的這些排富的這些"},{"start":250.633,"end":269.687,"text":"條例的修正會送到立法院來審議第二個部分是農業保險本身農業部雖然補助百分之五但是一般地方政府有補助到百分之三十到四十所以農民的負擔大概是百分之一般地方政府自己財政困難好他補助金額那佔總保費多少你也把這個金額給我好不好好那你請回你請回我還有一分鐘"},{"start":274.793,"end":283.265,"text":"那個主席還有1分鐘嗎時間到了時間到了好不好謝謝4分鐘了不是4加1喔沒有沒有就4分鐘好不好現在請黃秀芳委員質詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時20分）謝謝主席。沒想到官員的聲音比我們立委的聲音還大，在立法院吵鬧是應當的啦！","主席，我請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。","其他人也請尊重我們開會好不好？請大家在會場裡面不要講話。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：陳部長，昨天審查丹娜斯颱風特別預算，農業部這203億元通過了，這樣非常好，這是我們對農民做災害的補償，做農水路的復救，這個都非常好。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["王委員世堅：但是我們在今年也針對農業保險法通過修正，把政府補貼給農民的保費比率提高到百分之七十……"],["陳部長駿季：75%。"],["王委員世堅：但是現在我們補貼給農民的除了強制保險、豬隻跟稻米以外，還是維持50%，你們說的理由是預算不足。我們之所以會有農業保險，就是因為農業的災損，農民得到政府補償大概26%而已。歷年來你也知道，每一年我們的農損從數十億到數百億中間，也就是辛苦工作的農民們要自行負擔75%的農損，所以才會有農保嘛！在這邊我具體要求，因為你給我的答復裡面，你說農保現在覆蓋率有達到53%，今年到5月已經納保19萬件，覆蓋率53.9%，但那是包含強制保險100%補貼的稻米跟豬隻含在裡面，如果扣掉稻米、豬隻這些強制的……"],["陳部長駿季：二十幾。"],["王委員世堅：其實只有17.3%而已，我認為覆蓋率太低。我們研究室在跟你們要求要農業部提出具體的方法，比方說對農業保險的研議、品項的研議增加，比方說以保費來提高補助，從50%提高到現在農保法的上限70%，我說你把這個差額算出來是多少？算了半天！從5月算到現在，我拿不到你的答復，所以我今天希望你帶回去，對這個問題好好研議，好不好？以及老農津貼的排富條款從上回訂得排富標準，民國100年到現在已過14年，這14年來，整體社會經濟的進步、社會財富的增加，本來就應當提高老農津貼的排富條款標準，我的提案裡面一點都沒有錯啊！那個金額也不高，財產從500萬提高到900萬，每年收入從50萬提高到60萬，你們也沒有一個答復，要不然你們的對策是怎麼樣？你們都是認為統統不要動就對了？這樣我們國會議員在監督你們什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員簡單地說明，老農津貼排富條款的部分，我們已經跟行政院報告過，現在在行政院已經審查，預計在下個會期會把老農津貼排富條款的條例修正送到立法院審議。第二個部分是農業保險本身，農業部雖然補助50%，但是一般地方政府有補助到30%到40%，所以農民的負擔大概是百分之……"],["王委員世堅：一般地方政府自己財政困難。好，它有補助金額，占總保費多少，你也把這個金額給我，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，這個可以……"],["王委員世堅：你請回，我還有1分鐘。主席，還有1分鐘嘛？"],["主席：時間到了，好不好？謝謝，4分鐘而已。"],["王委員世堅：不是4加1喔？"],["主席：沒有、沒有，就4分鐘，好不好？","下一位請黃秀芳委員質詢。抱歉，因為今天要處理事情太多了，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我先請那個懷旭次長麻煩次長"},{"start":19.178,"end":43.183,"text":"好 前面我先那個呼應一下剛才翁小林委員的說法那其實我想經過7.26、8.23之後其實立法院我們真的需要一個正常的立法院那包含賴清德總統他不是也都訓示了嗎就說應該民生優先 經濟優先弱勢優先 青年優先可是我想就是民進黨黨團的這個幹事長"},{"start":47.404,"end":70.911,"text":"反而是沒有在聽也沒有在懂繼續的來做朝野之間的對立跟衝突然後自己以為自己是大法官可以來解釋憲法只是為了要去護航行政院違憲不編列由總統府已經公告的這個法律案這些法定的預算不編列這個才是違憲亂政"},{"start":73.525,"end":96.061,"text":"我想接下來要問次長的事就是在我們公務人員的權益保障的過程裡面其中一個商調權這個是我們很多基層公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的因為我們現行的公務人員他們要調單位的時候"},{"start":97.505,"end":112.171,"text":"幾乎很常會碰到原單位不放人不放人所以他們非常非常的困擾那當然這個呢他們也陳情很多次那麼也跟我們考試院詮釋部其實也反應很多次"},{"start":112.771,"end":127.217,"text":"所以現在我看到我們針對公務人員的任用法的施行細則現在已經預告修法回應了公務人員的商調權的修法"},{"start":130.058,"end":159.007,"text":"所以在修法的内容的部分第一个其实我看到的就是第21条跟21条之一的修正草案那么就是针对特别是你在原服务机关的所在地跟你三足岁以下的子女实际居住地没有在同一个直辖市县市因为他要有养育"},{"start":159.827,"end":175.494,"text":"子女的這樣的一個責任所以他可以請調而這裡面呢是可以排除這個就是商調權因為不然過去呢只要原機關不放人他也沒有辦法都沒有辦法照顧家庭也沒有辦法照顧幼兒"},{"start":176.494,"end":201.155,"text":"那另外呢在還有一個部分就是你在原服務機關曾受到性騷擾職場霸凌而且經認定成立的那或者是依其他法律規定請商調不得拒絕我想這個這樣的修法的方向基本上我們支持但是啊但是在你們的這個"},{"start":203.617,"end":217.652,"text":"條文裡面又做了一些但書那這個但書呢就是說針對就是可以延長的部分也就是說"},{"start":218.854,"end":237.748,"text":"第一個就是當然你本來是基於你的交接上的問題你可以還是可以多留他三個月多留他三個月但是你們在條文裡面呢要給他一個但書就是他的這個過掉日期呢還可以再延三個月"},{"start":238.749,"end":257.051,"text":"也就是原來的三個月再加三個月所以就是他恐怕就是會拖長達半年之久半年之久而且呢這個的可以延長的狀況啊其實就有一些我覺得這個就有很大的行政裁量權那"},{"start":259.383,"end":274.216,"text":"譬如說 你這個當然你說搶救重大災害或緊急重大突發事件譬如說假設這一次我們南部縣市在丹納斯颱風這個重大災害的搶救也許它符合"},{"start":275.441,"end":302.495,"text":"但是呢他有所謂的辦理重大專案業務辦理季節性週期性的工作期間所以這又給原服務單位一個很大的一個解釋權那這一點呢其實對很多的基層公務人員就覺得這又有點刁難的意味就讓他有刁難的空間所以我想請教次長啊就是針對這一部分呢"},{"start":302.995,"end":317.057,"text":"也就是延長的部分是不是可以更加的明確然後不要讓基層的公務員認為這個很可能到時候又被又被刁難然後他就走不掉"},{"start":318.05,"end":333.565,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說後來我們在報給考試員的草案裡面對於季節性週期性工作我們這個部分已經把它刪除掉了好吧 季節性跟週期性那那個重大專案這個部分因為我們這次整個架構的設計基本上就是說"},{"start":335.647,"end":348.375,"text":"當然譬如您提到這邊包括他有性騷擾或者是等等這些只要判決確定這個都一定有機關要很快就讓他調走那再來就是說如果你有申請過保障事件可是你在條文裡面沒有講說像這個什麼"},{"start":350.416,"end":368.21,"text":"职场霸凌或性骚扰确定之后你就没有这个没有这些相关的这可能是公告条文后来我们确定最后报告考试院的条文部分我们对像有那个养育资率三岁以下等等或者你在这机关因为性骚扰"},{"start":369.251,"end":387.19,"text":"市長霸凌被判決定成立的還有就是說你是曾經向保訓會提起互審或申訴經過確定說機關的處分要被撤銷這些人都可以不必受六個月限制就可以申請商調離開他不受六個月但還是有三個月的"},{"start":388.852,"end":403.65,"text":"這是最長就是三個月 這是最長那我們另外在這個條文上還有做一個設計就是說如果怕 等於說一個督促性的設計機關如果說不處理它譬如說我把公務員收了就一直問那我們就會讓你兩個月後就自動生效"},{"start":404.25,"end":419.4,"text":"就是說逼你也不是逼啦就是說我督促你一定你不處理的話這個案子兩個月後就會自動生效出去所以我們在所謂兩個月自動生效是因為我今天來商調假設我今天來商調那我一直不處理兩個月後我就可以"},{"start":420.18,"end":437.973,"text":"就自動視同我已經同意你兩個月後掉手這個概念那因為這個條文我也知道很包括公務員團體還有機關那我們大概在徵詢各機關意見中我們希望取得一個橫評所以我們大概做這樣的一個處理大概目前就是說"},{"start":438.753,"end":465.913,"text":"我也跟委員報告就是說我們不可能盡如機關的意但是也不可能盡如所有人大家都而且我知道這個當然是這個用人單位跟公務人員他們必須要一個橫頻所以你的意思就是說如果因為其實有些機關就很機車嘛有些長官很機車啊啊不報人啊那現在這樣我就跟不處理所以你不處理那就兩個月就自動生效你連給他延長三個月都不行就立刻他就可以調到那個"},{"start":466.953,"end":480.56,"text":"這個商調單位然後現在就是說那你現在最長最長就是三個月嗎三加三就最多六個月不是那你最後那個加三加三有條件限制那條件你的條件能不能更具體講一下因為我剛才就在講啊你這個有些什麼重大專案業務"},{"start":489.585,"end":517.551,"text":"他到時候生出一個重大專案業務就又留你啊我們最多就是說譬如說我們雙方協調過同意的也可以那是你自己協調那再來就是說我們再依規定譬如說你是屬於那個偏鄉地區或離島偏鄉地區高山坯這個我覺得我們要考慮這些地方不容易找人那另外一個就是說如果你正在辦理重大救災事務或重大專案但這個重大專案也不是他可以隨便解釋譬如說只是舉例"},{"start":518.291,"end":538.601,"text":"可能我們現在正在審預算的時期這個時候因為有業務上的需要或者說他可能這個只有那段時間的時候那你可以把它適當延長可是我們最多也是讓你頂多就是三個月多延長三個月那麼我也跟委員報告就是說我們這個草案再出去的時候本來我們要這樣的處理大概"},{"start":539.241,"end":562.595,"text":"中央跟地方政府也都有很多的意見認為就是說應該機關要保有當然我知道這個佑仁機關一定是比較抗拒的包括地方政府我們也看一下大概譬如說以公園最多六都就有四都他們認為說不一定所以我們後來還是需要做一些折衷就是說希望兼顧機關的因為畢竟政府機關上是為民服務"},{"start":563.536,"end":583.152,"text":"那如果人突然間就是不確定的狀況下常常調走也會因為走的人不是也是當天就可以補來那這個部分需要總之要有這樣的考量因為你調走的人他剩下的工作事實上是沒有離開的人要去幫你承擔所以我們在這種情況下希望取得一個橫平就大家互相體諒"},{"start":583.592,"end":607.379,"text":"那好就是兩個要求啦第一個要求就是把你們現在的現有的條文然後提供給一份給我們辦公室那第二個就是我剛才特別提到就說你要有些行政裁量權那個行政裁量權不能太過的寬鬆那太寬鬆的話就變成用人機關就是又不讓人走的一個理由好不好"},{"start":607.779,"end":615.958,"text":"大概就最主要這兩個那另外就是說就麻煩你趕快把他那個新的條文內容我已經報到考試院就等考試院審查好 可以 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":589,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時1分）謝謝主席，我先請懷敍次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：前面我先呼應一下剛才翁曉玲委員的說法。我想經過726、823之後，其實我們真的需要一個正常的立法院，包含賴清德總統不是也都訓示了，應該民生優先、經濟優先、弱勢優先、青年優先，可是我想民進黨黨團的幹事長反而沒有在聽、也沒有在懂，繼續來做朝野之間的對立跟衝突，然後自己以為自己是大法官，可以來解釋憲法，只是為了要去護航行政院違憲、不編列由總統府已經公告的法律案、法定預算，這個才是毀憲亂政！","接下來要問次長的是，在公務人員的權益保障過程裡面，其中的商調權是很多基層公務人員一直希望能夠爭取的，因為現行公務人員要調單位的時候很常會碰到原單位不放人，所以他們非常、非常地困擾，當然這部分他們陳情很多次，也跟考試院、銓敘部反映很多次。","現在我看到你們針對公務人員任用法施行細則已經預告修法，回應了公務人員商調權的修法。在修法內容當中，第一個，我看到的就是第二十一條跟二十一條之一的修正草案，特別針對原服務機關所在地跟三足歲以下子女實際居住地沒有在同一個直轄市、縣市，因為有養育子女的責任，所以可以請調，而這裡面可以排除商調權……不然過去只要原機關不放人，他也沒有辦法，都沒有辦法照顧家庭、也沒有辦法照顧幼兒；另外還有一個部分，在原服務機關承受到性騷擾、職場霸凌而且經認定成立的；或者是依其他法律規定，其商調不得拒絕。","這樣的修法方向基本上我們支持，但是在你們的條文裡面又做了一些但書，這個但書就是針對可以延長的部分，本來基於交接上的問題，還是可以多留他三個月，但是你們在條文裡面又給他一個但書，就是他的過調日期還可以再延三個月，也就是原來的三個月再加三個月，恐怕會拖到長達半年之久。而且這個可以延長的狀況我覺得有很大的行政裁量權，當然這裡面包含搶救重大災害或緊急重大突發事件，比如這一次我們南部縣市在丹娜絲颱風中的重大災害搶救，這也許符合；但是這裡面有所謂的辦理重大專案業務或辦理季節性、週期性的工作期間，所以這又給原服務單位一個很大的解釋權，這一點其實又讓很多基層公務人員覺得有一點刁難的意味，就是讓他有刁難的空間。所以我想請教次長，針對延長的部分是不是可以更加明確，不要讓基層公務員認為到時候很可能因為這個又被刁難，他就走不掉？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告一下，在我們後來報給考試院的草案裡面，季節性、週期性工作這個部分已經把它刪除掉了。而重大專案這個部分，因為我們這次整個架構設計基本上就是……譬如您提到的，包括他有性騷擾等等的，這些只要判決確定，機關一定很快就要讓他調走。再來，如果有申請過保障事件……"],["王委員鴻薇：可是你在條文裡面沒有提到像職場霸凌或性騷擾確定之後，你就沒有這些相關的……"],["懷次長敍：這可能是公告條文，我們確定最後報到考試院的條文部分，對於養育三歲以下子女，或者在這個機關因為性騷擾、職場霸凌確定成立的，還有曾經向保訓會提起復審或申訴經確定機關處分要被撤銷，這些人都可以不必受六個月限制就可以申請商調離開。"],["王委員鴻薇：他不受六個月，但他還是有三個月的。"],["懷次長敍：對，最長就是三個月，這是最長。","我們另外在這個條文上也做了一個設計，等於是一個督促性的設計，機關如果不處理，譬如把公文收了就一直不處理，我們就會讓你兩個月後自動生效，就是我督促機關一定……不處理的話，這個案子兩個月後就會自動生效出去。所以我們在整個……"],["王委員鴻薇：所謂兩個月自動生效是當……"],["懷次長敍：假設你今天來商調，那我一直不處理，兩個月後就自動視同我已經同意你兩個月後調走的概念。因為這個條文我也知道包括公務員團體還有機關……我們在徵詢各機關意見過程中也希望取得一個衡平……"],["王委員鴻薇：這了解。"],["懷次長敍：對，所以我們大概做這樣的處理。我也跟委員報告，我們不可能盡如機關的意，但是也不可能盡如所有人、大家都……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，這個當然是用人單位跟公務人員之間必須要有一個衡平。所以你的意思就是，因為有些機關就很機車，有些長官很機車、不放人，然後他就不處理，所以他不處理就兩個月自動生效，連給他延長三個月都不行，他就立刻可以調到商調單位？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在最長就是三個月嗎？"],["懷次長敍：三加三，最多就六個月。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，那個加三……"],["懷次長敍：加三有條件限制，不是……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，你的條件能不能更具體講一下？因為我剛才就在講，你有規定重大專案業務，他到時候生出一個重大專案業務就又留你呀！"],["懷次長敍：我們最多就是……譬如說我們三方協調過，同意的也可以，但是他要自己協調。再來，我們再依規定，譬如他是屬於偏鄉地區或離島、高山地區，我覺得我們要考慮這些地方不容易找人。另外一個就是，如果他正在辦理重大救災事務或重大專案，但這個重大專案也不是他可以隨便解釋，我只是舉例，可能我們現在正在審預算的時期，這個時候因為有業務上的需要或者是……只有那段時間的時候，你可以把他適當延長，可是我們最多也是三個月，多延長三個月。","我也跟委員報告，我們這個草案在出去的時候，本來我們要這樣的處理，大概中央跟地方政府也都有很多的意見，認為機關應該要保有……"],["王委員鴻薇：當然，我知道用人機關一定是比較抗拒的。"],["懷次長敍：包括地方政府，我們也看一下，譬如說，以公務員最多，六都就有四都認為不應……所以我們後來還是需要做一些折衷，就是希望兼顧機關的……因為畢竟政府機關算是為民服務，如果人突然間在不確定的狀況下，常常調走，因為走的人也不是當天就可以補來，那這個部分需要……"],["王委員鴻薇：這我們當然了解。"],["懷次長敍：對，總是要有這樣的考量，因為調走的人他剩下的工作事實上是由沒有離開的人要去幫忙承擔，所以在這種情況下，我們希望取得一個衡平，大家互相體諒……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，兩個要求，第一個要求就是把你們現有的條文提供一份給我們辦公室，第二個是我剛才特別提到，你要有些行政裁量權，但那個行政裁量權不能太過寬鬆，太過寬鬆的話，就變成用人機關不讓人走的理由，好不好？"],["懷次長敍：了解。"],["王委員鴻薇：大概最主要就這兩個，另外就麻煩你趕快把新的條文內容……"],["懷次長敍：已經報到考試院，就等考試院……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，可以，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時所要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員沈發惠所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163723","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d746e7b5a46add299d6d1055ccb7a5c893e73be9beff75c7d81aec69ac5727ffa9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"11:01:59 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謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時2分）有請教育部長、文化部長還有主計長。"],["主席：請教育部的鄭部長、文化部的李部長還有主計長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：幾位首長好，我先針對教育部部長來做質詢。在這一次的追加預算當中，我們看到教育部再增加了五千多萬，然後在相關的部會當中，我們看到了最重要的，根據預算中心的評估報告所呈現出來的，就是因為第七十九條第三款規定的「所辦事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算時」，在這個情況之下，我們當然要請問到底有沒有發生重大事件。但是最重要的是在這次回編當中有提到媒體的文宣費增加了四成，如果是針對文宣費，就必須根據預算法第六十二條之一列明辦理金額、執行單位等事項，要把執行內容都提出來，可是都沒有提出正式的報告。","文化部同樣也是這種情形，李遠部長，在您的這個報告當中提到文化部提了二億八千多萬的部分，根據預算中心的報告，這二億八千多萬絕大部分都是再回編的，把過去刪除的再回編進去。同樣的，在屬於文宣的部分，回編的也是占了四成，同樣也是依照第七十九條跟第六十二條之一的規定來進行。關於這個部分，請你們回答，你們沒有列明辦理金額跟執行內容，這樣本院要怎麼審查呢？"],["李部長遠：其實我們是被刪掉11億，這次回編大概兩億多，我們占的比例其實非常低，連25%都不到，我們所編的每一筆錢都是原來要用的，但是被刪掉了！我剛才有報告，我們整個文化部到8月以前都是靠企業來捐款、靠個人來捐款，還有出國是用自己的錢，如果能夠回編的話，我們下半年有金鐘獎、金馬獎，有大概七、八個大型的典禮，我們都沒有錢去宣傳，其實我們已經面臨到這個地步。"],["劉委員書彬：我們現在看到的是依照第七十九條第三款的重大事故，你是把立法院的審查當作重大事故嗎？"],["李部長遠：對，這個也算重大事故，因為我們文化部最重要就是在年底這幾個月的金馬獎、金鐘獎還有金曲獎，全部都是在最後要出，如果這個錢不回編……"],["劉委員書彬：你如果這樣說的話，等於是把立法院的刪減預算權當作是一個重大事故，這個是災難嗎？"],["李部長遠：差不多是這個意思啦！其實差不多。"],["劉委員書彬：這是非常奇怪的作法。"],["李部長遠：因為這個刪減就是重大事故，為什麼？我們從1月到8月過的那個……"],["劉委員書彬：這個是文宣費用，我想要跟大家說明這是文宣費用，那請你要說明辦理的金額，你必須要說明，你沒有說明，其實這就是一個疏忽啊！而且剛才我們也聽到，主計長這邊都被詢問過了，就是要有相關法律規定的重大事故等等，主計長，你認為這是重大事故嗎？立法院刪你的預算是重大事故嗎？而且即使刪了預算，這還是史上最高的預算喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為刪減是有限定用……就是百分比達到很高，譬如說60%，有的是80%，而且還禁止流用，所以影響到整個機關的執行，所以這個部分當然是屬於重大，因為機關沒辦法執行，像文化部還有全部被刪減的……"],["劉委員書彬：這是回應到你們的問題，因為你們之前都沒有做溝通。我要問一個最重要的問題，請主計長回復，如果你們真的是不滿意的話，你們會做什麼樣的動作？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們原則上是希望透過追加減預算的部分，然後來跟立法院做溝通，就是說有窒礙難行的部分是不是可以來……"],["劉委員書彬：就是你們在下一次就必須要早早去做這個事情，不要說在114年已經出現這個問題，115年又繼續發生這些事情，好嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉委員的質詢。","向委員會報告，我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時19分）"],["主席：向委員會報告，請各位維持會場的秩序，幕僚人員請不要在會場裡面，因為我們9樓大禮堂現在的空氣品質非常不好，所以請大家彼此尊重。","我們現在繼續開會，在開會之前我作一個宣告：我們現在是公開追加預算的詢答，之後我們會進行機密預算的報告、詢答、處理，開會地點改在群賢樓501會議室。我們先進行公開詢答，再來進行機密詢答以及處理，在結束以後再回來處理，順序就是這樣，好不好？先讓各位知道，各位委員可以抓一下時間，如果要參加機密預算的處理，程序大概就是這個樣子。","好，我們下一位請王世堅委員質詢，時間4分鐘。","各位如果留在會場裡面，就請各位肅靜好不好？尊重我們開會，如果需要講話，請各位出去外面講話。","請王委員世堅。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝張委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時57分）請內政部、金管會、財政部。"],["主席：內政部劉部長、金管會彭主委，還有財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：各位好。我們今天的追加減預算也是政府沒有錢不能辦事，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們在施政上以及各項業務推動上有這樣一個實際需求。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！政府沒有錢就不能辦事。我今天請三個部會，劉部長，我們一直在講危老的改建，這個是政府積極推動的政策。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員宏陸：而且我們跟人民講，危老就是不需要透過建商或什麼，自己可以來做，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：但我不知道部長知不知道，現在很多危老案子，銀行都不貸款。"],["劉部長世芳：有聽說過這樣的例子，我們正在想辦法看如何解決。"],["張委員宏陸：今天都在這，能不能解決？來，金管會、財政部，你們可以回答。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，現在我們金管會主政的是銀行法第七十二條之二上限的問題，我們在第七十二條之二已經把危老、都更排除在外面了。"],["張委員宏陸：那時候我們還有修法，我們立法院內政委員會都有修法喔！對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這已經排除了。你不要跟我講法條，我時間有限嘛！你要怎麼解決嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：針對銀行法的部分，我們這邊是沒有這個障礙，那是其他可能信用管制的問題。"],["張委員宏陸：然後呢？所以你無法解決是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我金管會主政範圍這部分，我們已經針對這部分把它排除。"],["張委員宏陸：那我問你，所有銀行不按照政府的法令去做，你束手無策嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，這是還有其他主管機關在……"],["張委員宏陸：財政部，你覺得呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，剛剛金管會已經說了，銀行法那個百分之三十的限制其實已經排除危老跟都更，這個部分我想銀行就可以根據金管會這樣的放寬，應該就可以去做。"],["張委員宏陸：但是沒有做啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：關於這個部分，所謂沒有做的話，是不是可以讓我們了解一下個案的情況？"],["張委員宏陸：不，這不是個案，剛剛劉部長也講了，這已經變通案，不是個案了！你們政府一直鼓勵人家，結果人家做了，政府又不支持，你們這是在騙人民欸！"],["莊部長翠雲：我想政府的施政是有一致性的。"],["張委員宏陸：我不清楚你知不知道像危老這部分是不用透過建商，結果你們銀行百般找麻煩，不貸款給人家，甚至有的銀行還說：「你去找建商來跟你一起蓋」，這是什麼道理啊！今天你們三個單位都在這邊，難道沒有辦法解決嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，對於您關心的這個問題，我們在尋求解決之道，第一個就是自主都更，再來就看能不能通過一個都更會，然後儘量排除由建商來主導，關於這個部分，我們跟財政還有金管單位都在處理，就是看怎麼樣處理會比較好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我跟你講，人家危老的、民眾自己蓋的房子，現在去銀行都借不到錢，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們有了解到這個狀況。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，如果你們連這個都沒有辦法解決，那你們的追加預算也不用給你們，因為即使給你們錢，你們也不會處理事情啊！給你們錢，你們不處理事情，那幹嘛給你們錢？你們說自己沒錢所以沒有辦法做事，然後你們這樣子……"],["劉部長世芳：張委員，我想你言重了，我們的追加預算是法定或是我們在重大政事上面要追加回來的。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，對打房我們都很支持，但是我一再強調，我現在只有講危老，我只要你們解決這個問題喔！"],["劉部長世芳：再給我們一點時間來溝通，我們會在短暫的時間內提出來。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，如果你們沒有辦法解決，我們也不用給你們追加預算，因為你們不會做事啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝張委員的質詢。","現在請劉書彬委員質詢。","等劉委員質詢完畢我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席在這邊首先先請國防部王副處長法律事務處軍法事務處副處長王副處長然後也請內政部的簡專委是不是簡專委"},{"start":31.221,"end":40.428,"text":"那首先不好意思那個王副處長我想先請教在過去我在這邊想請教就是在過去這些年裡面我們國軍的待遇調整有多少次"},{"start":59.81,"end":73.876,"text":"我們曾經有多少次調心 從105年開始到現在詳細我不知道 但是我記得好幾次好 那麼這個基本上大概我看了一些新聞從105年起 國防部的"},{"start":75.14,"end":95.918,"text":"對於這個軍人的調薪有調整了四次核器達福大概是14%那請問因為我想您在軍中也服役很久了這個您過去有沒有印象就是軍人待遇調薪然後行政院不編預算國防部不編預算的有沒有曾經國防部不編列預算"},{"start":101.263,"end":126.452,"text":"包委員 因為這個預算非我們本師我是法律師的法律師應該要了解相關的法制啊是 是那有關這個部分我這邊並不清楚是不是我會後那從法律的角度來說您認為我們這個立法院的法律的這個軍人待遇條例都通過了給軍人的待遇調薪尤其是家計的部分調薪那這個部分可以不執行嗎可以不編列預算嗎"},{"start":130.114,"end":139.057,"text":"你們國防部的法律事務處在國防部不編列預算這件事情上面你們有向你們的長官表達過這可能會有違法的疑慮嗎這個部分我們部長在近日對媒體也有回答說基於行政議題的部分所以國防部都沒有向行政院表示過任何"},{"start":156.178,"end":168.104,"text":"這個抗議或是認為說這樣子的做法是有違法疑慮的都沒有把這樣的意見告訴過行政院院長嗎這一部分我這邊並不是很清楚"},{"start":170.011,"end":192.851,"text":"看起來現在顧立雄他就是個聽命行事的國防部部長他根本沒有把國軍弟兄放在心裡他如果說他是個愛護國軍的這個長官的話他今天就應該要在行政院會議上面或者是說他應該要向行政院長去反映怎麼可以法律通過了竟然不編列預算"},{"start":194.535,"end":207.458,"text":"鮑委員 從我們部長一上任以來就不斷的跟我們各級的幹部來講這個一定要照顧國軍那針對國軍的各項域的待遇之災我們要聽其言 觀其行啦這個副處長您不用幫顧立雄插著抹粉他到底有沒有愛護國軍弟兄這一次的事件就清清楚楚"},{"start":216.96,"end":233.371,"text":"他沒有編列就沒有編列甚至連向行政院院長去抗議去提出異議他都沒有嘛看起來就是這樣那請問接下來我想請問內政部的簡專委內政部部長有沒有向行政院院長提出異議"},{"start":238.052,"end":261.999,"text":"報告委員 因為我們今天派員列席的這個部分是不清楚關於這個警校條例的相關的這個加級的問題好 我在想應該也沒有我沒有看到劉世芳 劉部長在媒體上面有說他要捍衛警校人員的權益然後向行政院長表示異議表示抗議 也沒有嘛所以呢 不管是"},{"start":263.977,"end":278.402,"text":"這個國防部部長顧立雄或是劉士芳部長內政部部長劉士芳基本上說什麼愛軍愛警消我覺得那都是騙人的好那我現在要講的就是好請兩位先回座接下來請考試院劉秘書長或是權敘部的這個懷次長"},{"start":294.564,"end":302.636,"text":"是 請問劉秘書長這次這個考試院針對114年考試院的預算你們有提出釋憲嗎你們當時有"},{"start":305.962,"end":326.27,"text":"加在這個行政院的中央政府總預算裡面一起去提起釋憲嗎 考試院的部分總預算因為是這個行政院的權責考試院沒有就這個部分提出所以你 我在想可能你也不太清楚到底行政院提出的114年的總預算的釋憲裡面有沒有涵蓋你考試院的部分"},{"start":330.08,"end":341.733,"text":"他是一整本去視線吧他就總預算視線要總預算視線就包含全國但是內容上面的部分我有沒有請你們的有知道的"},{"start":344.008,"end":368.402,"text":"因為我沒有看過那個釋憲文所以不知道他到底提什麼釋憲所以這是很可笑的一件事情卓榮泰他提出了114年的政府總預算的釋憲案裡面可能就包含了考試院 司法院 監察院而你們卻一無所知你們根本不知道你的預算是不是已經被提起釋憲了我上次有問過司法院的副秘書長他說他不知道"},{"start":369.673,"end":388.614,"text":"但是看起來他這整包的一起去提起釋憲還有就是說按照賴清德的邏輯說如果現在案子申請釋憲案當中就不應該執行那麼114年的中央政府總預算案是不是也應該要停止執行"},{"start":393.496,"end":418.101,"text":"我真的很覺得有的時候看到我們的賴總統的發言卓榮泰院長的發言都讓我覺得說他們怎麼可以雙標到如此的境界114年中央政府總預算案他釋憲在先而且大法官已經受理了憲法法庭受理了看看我們的軍人待遇條例跟警校人員條例他什麼時候提出釋憲的"},{"start":419.528,"end":437.666,"text":"前幾天8月22號才送出的大法官受理了嗎沒有受理啊你們的四限案這個大法官受理了你們還是繼續執行錢都快花完了現在還要來追加預算"},{"start":439.239,"end":456.192,"text":"對於這個法律通過的該編的預算也不編然後竟然還說是因為現在在申請釋憲中所以呢就拒絕編列等待釋憲結果之後再行編列這種話也說得出來我真的是覺得非常的"},{"start":457.547,"end":470.299,"text":"感到真的不知道應該怎麼樣去批評現在的我們的總統跟院長竟然可以違法到這樣子的這個境界好 那麼接下來請監察院好 請兩位請回"},{"start":479.571,"end":488.179,"text":"今天是處長監察業務處的黃處長來監察院的職權到底是什麼您可不可以解釋一下監察院的職權"},{"start":492.599,"end":517.209,"text":"報告委員監察院的職權是針對公務人員的違法失職然後我們行使那個憲法賦予的權利包括彈劾糾舉然後我們並提出比較跳的報告另外公職人員財產申報處是針對好 我想很重要針對公務人員以及行政機關的違法失職嘛進行彈劾及糾舉糾正對於現在我們看到的行政院"},{"start":518.149,"end":541.386,"text":"他不執行法律這個部分有沒有啟動調查監察院有啟動調查嗎調查權的行使是監察委員的職權他們是獨立行使職權所以到現在為止監察委員沒有一個人是有啟動調查包含這個"},{"start":543.496,"end":564.165,"text":"行政院他違法苛扣地方性的補助款以及他不編列之前對於公務人員加薪一直拖拖拖拖了幾個月之後才核發調整的薪水然後到現在又違法的不編列軍人和警消人員的調薪監察委員不應該啟動調查嗎我希望今天處長可以把我幾個委員的"},{"start":574.426,"end":586.253,"text":"這個質疑帶回去給監察委員他們是不是應該要依職權要啟動調查而不應該這麼怠惰好謝謝處長那麼接下來我要再講的就是請那個請也是請劉秘書長還有懷次長"},{"start":601.564,"end":625.106,"text":"今天我們其實討論考記法的問題在考記法的問題裡面其實我在這邊有幾個議題你們所提的條文的修正我大致上都同意但是還是有一些地方我不是很清楚尤其是對於我們現在知道公務人員常常可能會一次兩大過就免職但是如果說是每年他都是一大過"},{"start":627.016,"end":632.265,"text":"那麼連續好幾年每年都一大過現在我們有辦法去處理像這樣子的案子嗎 像這樣的公務員嗎"},{"start":634.332,"end":659.953,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為我們烤雞的功過是以烤雞年度為主所以他去年記過一大過 今年記過一大過他不會被累積起來變成兩個大過但是您剛才提到就是說比如說講的比較粗暴一點就是說可能工作爛爛的 經常就粗暴這些應該是在平時成績考就要來給他執行執行包括他的年度烤雞就要一起把它"},{"start":660.553,"end":679.982,"text":"是的 我要現在講的就是說因為其實我們看到其實很多的公共機關有反應其實他們沒辦法去處理那個他可能常常年度被打考積是平等的那沒有辦法處理那可是在你們這次修正裡面我沒有看到你們有針對類似這種常常被考列平等的人員"},{"start":685.865,"end":708.819,"text":"有一個更積極的一個處理的機制這個部分的話是不是可以請你們去研析就是有關於就是常常被考慮並等人員有沒有更正向的輔導改善機制好 那個委員這個意見我們帶回去我們這次跟委員報告我們這次修正主要是配合這次那個保障法的修正對於霸凌 性侵 性騷這些整體的一個配套的一個修正在第12條部分謝謝委員指導 謝謝"},{"start":710.52,"end":725.789,"text":"好了解然後呢另外呢就是說是談到有關於這個政務人員法制方面的這個問題喔其實呢在上次情緒部的部長施部長他說呢這個這個有關於政務人員的法制不屬於考試院的權責請問劉秘書長你們考試院的意見呢"},{"start":731.143,"end":747.456,"text":"各位報告這一屆考試委員沒有就這個部分做成討論那這個因為那這個事情前一屆呢前一屆沒有處理都沒有處理對12屆也沒有再前一屆也沒有那主要就是因為說如果這個事跟行政沒有共識的話其實這個法案送不出來因為他會險"},{"start":749.073,"end":771.005,"text":"考試院在多年前曾經有提出過政務人員法到政務人員的退府條例也是屬於你們考試院所提的退府條例比較特別只有什麼特別你按照我們的風景也是由你們處理的憲政執掌上面是有退府的所以這個部分我覺得非常重要必須要去釐清另外有關於陳菊的請假的問題她現在已經請假幾個月了"},{"start":774.541,"end":780.305,"text":"對 這我不清楚 可能要問檢測員從大概現在為止應該請假七八個月了嗎請問 請問處長大概差不多八個月了吧是 報告委員那個院長的請假按照那個公務人員的請假規則現在目前請假的時間的確已經超過八個月已經超過八個月了所以如果說按照我們公務人員請假規則來講的話他最長的可以請假到什麼 明年到今年年底 對不對"},{"start":803.892,"end":827.997,"text":"這個部分按照那個規則他除了士兵假休假都請完之外另外還可以請延長兵假所以呢他最常可以請到多久嘛這個部分因為這個部分是不是要請那個我要講的就是說公務人員在請假規則裡面其實非常清楚他最多可能請一年可是陳菊不一樣他也不是狹野的公務員對不對他是政務人員政務人員可以請假這麼久"},{"start":830.818,"end":836.244,"text":"雖然說我們不忍心看到有任何一個政務官生病請假但是他確實請假這麼長他已經也耽誤了公務公職更何況就是說我們看到有其他的一些法規如果像不管是中選會啊NCC的這些相關組織法如果說是這個委員他離病啊或生病啊等等的話其實行政院長是可以允允免職的"},{"start":854.662,"end":878.411,"text":"這未來的相關法制你們是不是也應該要去修正一下否則如果說我們未來的政務官長期的這樣生病他沒有辦法執行他的職務那麼其實不管社會觀感也不好而且我覺得最重要他是會影響到政務的所以這部分話也應該要去去去一併的去修法也請你們要給我一份延續報告然後最後好最後我要再講就是剛剛吳思瑤委員"},{"start":881.417,"end":904.215,"text":"真的叫做鬼扯一通難怪人家說他常常就是無造謠他對於法律對於憲法是一知半解所以常常就會講一些莫名其妙根本不正確的事情他剛剛講說過去在憲法大法官解釋"},{"start":906.804,"end":933.559,"text":"264號解釋裡面也有講到說立法院是不可以任意的提出追加預算他到底有沒有搞清楚264號解釋講的是當時是立法院做成的決議希望行政機關要求要追加預算要提高發放半個月的工作獎金這只是一個決議他不是立法院通過的法律"},{"start":935.752,"end":954.322,"text":"吳思瑤今天他說的剛剛講的說因為264號解釋的理由所以這次行政院跟賴清德總統認為說軍人待遇條例他是調高薪水所以不應該編列預算這樣的"},{"start":956.863,"end":972.709,"text":"說法是完全錯誤根本不是這麼回事這吳思瑤委員其實她雖然在立法院已經做了好幾屆的委員但是我完全看不出來她的法律素養是有進步是有漲進"},{"start":974.059,"end":999.05,"text":"如果說今天他要講這個事情他應該要把264號解釋好好的看清楚而不是張冠禮禮帶把根本不是這個根本不適合拿來跟這一次行政院違法不編列軍人警消這個待遇的還有退休金的這樣的一個預算的事情拿來做相比擬這是非常惡劣很惡質的所以就是不斷的這個造謠"},{"start":1001.172,"end":1022.529,"text":"我最後還要再強調就是限訴法的修正基本上它是跟很多國家的做法是相同的在我們過去大法官審理案件法裡面也是將審理的門檻做成維新派人員考它的標準是三分之二或四分之三的怎麼可以說限訴法是惡法"},{"start":1024.276,"end":1044.382,"text":"憲法法庭今天沒有辦法這個這個召開審理他的問題不在於限訴法而是在於沒有適合的大法官人選就連民進黨自己都不認同賴清德總統所提出的大法官這個候選人怎麼可以怪罪到說這個是限訴法是惡法所以我看到吳思堯委員這樣子的一個發言非常不能認同"},{"start":1055.421,"end":1077.075,"text":"我必須要再講立法委員在這個質詢台上面自己要做功課多讀書不要常常去講一些五四三這個混淆是非的一些論述這個真的是有愧於身為一個民意代表身為立法委員好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時43分）好，謝謝主席。我在這邊首先先請國防部法律事務司軍法事務處王副處長，然後也請內政部的簡專委。首先，不好意思，王副處長，我想先請教，在過去這些年裡面國軍的待遇調整有多少次？我們曾經有多少次調薪，從105年開始到現在？"],["王副處長秉豐：報告委員，詳細我不知道，但是我記得好幾次了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，基本上，我看了一些新聞，從105年起，國防部對於軍人的調薪有調整了4次，合計漲幅大概14%。我想您在軍中也服役很久了，請問您過去有沒有印象軍人待遇調薪，然後行政院不編預算、國防部不編預算的？有沒有曾經國防部不編列預算？"],["王副處長秉豐：報告委員，因為預算非本司……我是法律司的，所以這部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：你法律司應該要了解相關的法制啊！"],["王副處長秉豐：是、是。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊！"],["王副處長秉豐：有關這個部分，我並不清楚，是不是會後再跟委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：從法律的角度來說，您認為軍人待遇條例立法院都通過了，給軍人的待遇調薪，尤其是加給的部分調薪，這個部分可以不執行嗎？可以不編列預算嗎？國防部的法律事務處在國防部不編列預算這件事情上面，有向你們的長官表達過可能會有違法的疑慮嗎？"],["王副處長秉豐：這個部分我們部長在近日對媒體也有回答，基於行政一體，目前在……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以國防部都沒有向行政院表示過任何抗議，或是認為這樣子的作法是有違法疑慮的？都沒有把這樣的意見告訴過行政院院長嗎？"],["王副處長秉豐：這一部分我並不是很清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：看起來現在顧立雄就是個聽命行事的國防部部長，他根本沒有把國軍弟兄放在心裡。如果他是個愛護國軍的長官的話，他今天就應該要在行政院會議上面，或者是他應該要向行政院長反映怎麼可以法律通過了，竟然不編列預算。"],["王副處長秉豐：報告委員，從我們部長一上任以來，就不斷地跟各級幹部講一定要照顧國軍。針對國軍的各項待遇……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們要聽其言、觀其行。副處長，您不用幫顧立雄擦脂抹粉，他到底有沒有愛護國軍弟兄？這一次的事件就清清楚楚，他沒有編列就是沒有編列，甚至連向行政院院長提出異議，他都沒有嘛！看起來就是這樣。"],["王副處長秉豐：報告委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來，我想請問內政部的簡專委，內政部部長有沒有向行政院院長提出異議？"],["簡專門委員鈺珒：報告委員，因為我們今天派員列席的這個部分是不清楚關於警消條例相關加給的問題，是不是容我們會後再跟委員說明？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我在想應該也沒有，我沒有看到劉世芳部長在媒體上面有說他要捍衛警消人員的權益，然後向行政院長表示異議、表示抗議，也沒有嘛！所以不管是國防部部長顧立雄或是內政部部長劉世芳，基本上說什麼愛軍、愛警消，我覺得那都是騙人的。請兩位先回座。","接下來請考試院劉秘書長或是銓敘部懷次長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問劉秘書長，這次考試院針對114年考試院的預算，你們有提出釋憲嗎？你們當時有加在行政院中央政府總預算裡面一起去提起釋憲嗎？考試院的部分？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有、沒有，總預算因為是行政院的權責，考試院沒有就這個部分提出釋憲。"],["翁委員曉玲：我在想可能你也不太清楚，到底行政院提出的114年總預算釋憲裡面有沒有涵蓋考試院的部分？它是一整本去釋憲吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，它就總預算釋憲，總預算釋憲就包含全國，但是內容上面的部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：有沒有？請你們知道的……"],["懷次長敍：因為我們沒有看過釋憲文，所以不知道它到底提什麼釋憲。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這是很可笑的一件事情，卓榮泰提出了114年政府總預算的釋憲案，裡面可能就包含了考試院、司法院、監察院，而你們卻一無所知，你們根本不知道你們的預算是不是已經被提起釋憲了。我上次有問過司法院的副秘書長，他說他不知道，但是看起來是整包一起去提起釋憲，還有按照賴清德的邏輯，如果現在案子在聲請釋憲當中就不應該執行，那麼114年中央政府總預算案是不是也應該要停止執行？有的時候看到賴總統的發言、卓榮泰院長的發言，都讓我覺得他們怎麼可以雙標到如此的境界！114年中央政府總預算案他提釋憲在先，而且大法官已經受理了、憲法法庭已經受理了；看看軍人待遇條例跟警消人員條例，他什麼時候提出釋憲的？就在前幾天，8月22號才送出的，大法官受理了嗎？沒有受理啊！你們提的釋憲案，大法官受理了，你們還是繼續執行，錢都快花完了，現在還要來追加預算；但對於這個法律通過的，該編的預算也不編，竟然還說因為現在在聲請釋憲中，所以就拒絕編列，等待釋憲結果之後再行編列。這種話也說得出來！我真的不知道該怎麼樣批評現在的總統跟院長，竟然可以違法到這樣的境界！","好，兩位請回。接下來請監察院。"],["黃處長奕元：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天是監察業務處黃處長列席。"],["黃處長奕元：是，委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：監察院的職權到底是什麼？您可不可以解釋一下監察院的職權？"],["黃處長奕元：報告委員，監察院的職權是針對公務人員的違法失職，行使憲法賦予的權力，包括彈劾、糾舉，並提出調查報告。另外，公職人員財產申報是針對……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想這很重要，就是針對公務人員以及行政機關的違法失職進行彈劾、糾舉、糾正，請問對於現在我們看到行政院不執行法律的這個部分有沒有啟動調查？監察院有啟動調查嗎？"],["黃處長奕元：報告委員，調查權的行使是監察委員的職權，他們是獨立行使職權，所以這個部分我們當然會尊重……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以到現在為止，監察委員沒有一個人有啟動調查，包含行政院違法剋扣地方性補助款，以及不編列之前對於公務人員加薪的部分，就是一直拖、拖、拖，拖了幾個月之後才核發調整的薪水，然後現在又違法不編列軍人和警消人員的調薪。對此，監察委員不應該啟動調查嗎？我希望今天處長可以把我跟幾個委員的質疑帶回去給監察委員，他們是不是應該要依職權啟動調查？而不應該這麼怠惰！"],["黃處長奕元：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝處長。","接下來我要請劉秘書長還有懷次長。今天我們要討論考績法的問題，在考績法的問題裡面，你們所提的條文修正，我大致上都同意，但有些地方我還不是很清楚，尤其是我們現在知道公務人員常常可能因一次兩大過就免職。如果每年他都是一大過，且連續好幾年都是每年一大過，現在我們有辦法去處理像這樣子的案子、像這樣的公務員嗎？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告一下，因為考績的功過是以考績年度為主，所以他去年記過一大過，今年記過一大過，他不會被累積變成兩個大過；但是您剛剛提到，比如講得比較粗暴一點，就是他可能工作都爛爛的、經常出包等等，這應該在平時成績考核就要予以執行，包括他的年終考績，就要將其併在一起……可以……"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，我要講的是，因為我們看到很多公務機關都有反映，就是沒辦法處理，像他可能考績常常被打丙等，但就是沒有辦法處理，可是在你們這次的修正裡面，我沒有看到你們針對類似這種常常被考列丙等的人員有一個更積極的處理機制，這個部分是不是可以請你們去研析，有關常常被考列丙等人員有沒有更正向的輔導改善機制？"],["懷次長敍：好，委員這個意見我們會帶回去，跟委員報告，我們這次修正主要是配合這次保障法的修正，對於霸凌、性侵、性騷等等，有整體配套的修正，就是第十二條的部分，謝謝委員指導。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。","另外，關於政務人員法制方面的問題，其實上次銓敘部施部長說，有關政務人員的法制，不屬於考試院的權責。請問劉秘書長，考試院的意見呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，這一屆考試委員沒有就這個部分做成討論，因為這個事情……"],["翁委員曉玲：前一屆呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：前一屆沒有處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：都沒有處理？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。第12屆也沒有；再前一屆也沒有，主要是因為如果跟行政院沒有共識，其實這個法案送不出來的，因為它要會銜。"],["翁委員曉玲：考試院在多年前曾經提出過政務人員法。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：政務人員的退撫條例也是屬於你們考試院所提的。"],["劉秘書長建忻：退撫條例比較特別，因為考試院……"],["翁委員曉玲：這有什麼特別？我們的俸給也是由你們處理的……"],["劉秘書長建忻：憲政職掌上面是有退休撫卹的部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得這個部分非常重要，必須要釐清。另外，關於陳菊請假的問題，他現在已經請假幾個月了？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這我不清楚，可能要問監察院。"],["翁委員曉玲：大概到現在為止，應該請假七、八個月了嗎？請問處長，差不多有8個月了吧？"],["黃處長奕元：報告委員，院長的請假按照公務人員的請假規則，目前請假時間的確已經超過8個月，但是這有計算標準……"],["翁委員曉玲：已經超過8個月了，如果按照公務人員請假規則，他最長可以請假到今年年底，對不對？"],["黃處長奕元：這個部分按照規則，他除了事病假、休假都請完之外，另外還可以請延長病假。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他最長可以請到多久？"],["黃處長奕元：這個部分是不是要請那個……"],["翁委員曉玲：我要講的是，公務人員的請假規則裡面規定得非常清楚，他最多可能請1年，可是陳菊不一樣，他不是狹義的公務員，他是政務人員，而政務人員竟可以請假這麼久！雖然我們不忍心看到有任何一個政務官生病請假，但是他確實請假這麼長，也已經耽誤了公務、公職，更何況我們看到其他的一些法規，不管是中選會、NCC這些相關組織法，如果委員罹病或生病等等，其實行政院長是可以予以免職的，所以未來相關法制你們是不是也應該去修正一下？否則未來如果政務官長期生病沒有辦法執行職務，除了社會觀感不好，而且我覺得最重要的，這是會影響到政務的，所以這部分也應該要一併去修法，也請你們給我一份研析報告。","最後，我要再講的是，剛剛吳思瑤委員真的叫做鬼扯一通，難怪人家常常說他是「吳造謠」，他對於法律、對於憲法是一知半解，所以常常就會講一些莫名其妙、根本不正確的事情。他剛剛說，過去在大法官會議第264號解釋裡面也有講到立法院不可以任意的提出追加預算。他到底有沒有搞清楚？第264號解釋講的是，當時是立法院做成的決議，要求行政機關要追加預算，因為要加發半個月的工作獎金。這只是一個決議，它不是立法院通過的法律。吳思瑤剛剛說，因為第264號解釋的理由，所以這次行政院跟賴清德總統認為軍人待遇條例是調高薪水，不應該編列預算，這樣的說法是完全錯誤的，根本不是這麼一回事！吳思瑤委員雖然在立法院已經做了好幾屆的委員，但是我完全看不出來他的法律素養是有進步的、是有長進的，如果今天他要講這個事情，就應該要把第264號解釋好好看清楚，而不是張冠李戴，把根本不適合拿來跟這一次行政院違法不編列軍人、警消待遇還有退休金預算的事情拿來相比擬，這是非常惡劣、很惡質的，所以就是不斷地造謠。","我最後還要再強調，憲訴法的修正基本上跟很多國家的做法是相同的，在我們過去大法官審理案件法裡面，也是將審理的門檻、做成違憲判決的門檻設定標準為三分之二或四分之三，怎麼可以說憲訴法是惡法！憲法法庭今天沒有辦法召開、審理，它的問題不在於憲訴法，而是在於沒有適合的大法官人選，就連民進黨自己都不認同賴清德總統所提出的大法官候選人，怎麼可以怪罪到憲訴法是惡法！所以我看到吳思瑤委員這樣子的發言非常不能認同。我必須要再講，立法委員在這個質詢臺上面，自己要做功課、多讀書，不要常常去講一些五四三、混淆是非的論述，這真的是有愧於身為一個民意代表、身為立法委員。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員。","林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員。","麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","以下我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d74542c7d326e6f8d0fd1055ccb7a5c893e982cf155f147233f2eac597dcc0aeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:51:22 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謝謝主席 我們有請主計長還有勞動部部長主計長還有我們的紅部長薇薇委員好"},{"start":39.068,"end":62.239,"text":"主委長好主委長我請教你好勞動部他編了一筆預算呢是923萬2000元是在勞動力發展業務裡面這一筆預算這個立法院預算中心呢他已經講了就是他是要挹注就業安定基金請問他這樣的編列可以嗎你有看到這筆預算是這樣編列嗎"},{"start":67.276,"end":72.76,"text":"你不知道 主席長不知道你都沒有在看各部會的這一些他編進來的預算"},{"start":75.353,"end":99.956,"text":"妳沒有在看 那誰在看 誰在把關我們是每一個同仁都有在看然後每一個都有注意他各自部會的一個項目那這個部分挹注他一個基金他裡面也會寫啦他沒有寫但是這一個可能是他的一個那個篇幅沒有那麼多所以就寫得沒有那麼詳細他沒有寫 報告裡面隻字未提可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":101.457,"end":129.65,"text":"我先問主席長 總統部長主席長可以這樣嗎如果有部會是這樣子的你允許嗎一般是這樣原則上我們說明欄裡面會加寫但是如果說有時候項目太多這個部在以後在審查的時候再補充書面資料這個是你們的疏失喔你們根本沒有提出來是由這個立法院的預算中心很盡責的指出來喔那接下來我要問這個部長喔你這一筆預算是不是就是要補就業安定基金"},{"start":130.424,"end":155.842,"text":"跟委員說明這筆預算的使用是這樣其實用途上面是去補地方的就業中心的人事費但是它是由公務預算補給救安基金救安基金再來支出地方不是補救安基金是補地方的這個就業中心的人事費它是辦你就業保險的人"},{"start":156.983,"end":177.78,"text":"妳是直接供預算就下到地方的就業中心不是嗎 妳要進到救安基金然後救安基金做這樣的支出所以妳這個行政程序上面有很大的問題為什麼報告裡面不敢提這麼正當的事情為什麼提都不提這個程序有問題第二個我要問妳就是"},{"start":179.47,"end":200.262,"text":"現在的救安基金的裁員事實上是非常的充裕的都還有盈餘按照預算法第79條裡面的第一項第三款裡面所辦的這個事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算時才可以去追加預算"},{"start":201.783,"end":220.155,"text":"請問你現在為什麼多加了這筆900多萬是有符合這樣的情況嗎是有發生什麼重大的情況重大的變故導致無法因應嗎有嗎跟委員說明因為其實這筆錢其實它的來源源頭就是來自於公務預算過去就是這樣過去就是來自公務預算"},{"start":221.557,"end":237.376,"text":"我就是说就是来自于公务预算但是因为现在它被删减了以后变成是我们在地方就业中心的人力欲缺不补有被删减吗有在委员会有删减你吗后来是被删减的后来是谁删减表决上面是被删减的"},{"start":237.836,"end":253.312,"text":"沒有啊 我們在委員會沒有刪減這筆錢這個900多萬是刪減的是通案刪減的可是這個讓我們在就業中心的人力變成要欲缺不補那現在比方面對關稅的問題可能會到我們這個地方就業中心的人"},{"start":253.892,"end":279.077,"text":"這一個部分你們程序上面我覺得就是有問題喔你們沒有直接講你的用處而且沒有直接講算你講到了這個 這個主計長你知道以後你在監督各部會他提預算的時候明明是要編給基金的這個按照規定你就是要講清楚而且應該要把基金的相關預算也要送上來這個勞動部通通都沒有做到接下來我要問你剛剛提到的就是紓困的部分喔"},{"start":279.737,"end":308.757,"text":"現在關稅我們看到這個人數是暴增一倍啊從1955人現在是3934暴增了一倍上個禮拜我有要求勞動部你要因應這個去延應你的紓困貸款我認為你應該要提早啟動年底的紓困貸款可以提早啟動第二個金額增加所以追加預算如果真的是要用在勞工身上的我們都同意但是不要魚目混珠不要說要編給基金的又不敢寫"},{"start":309.677,"end":325.762,"text":"基金是用在勞工身上的這一個 部長你可以這個要幫助勞工的你可以做到嗎紓困貸款的部分可不可以提早提到對於關稅的衝擊對勞工我們現在都在加碼都在把幫助跟支持的力道給強化紓困貸款可不可以提早我覺得各種方案我們可以跟委員這邊來討論"},{"start":331.704,"end":338.523,"text":"把那個報告給我好 謝謝帶款的這個部分應該要提早讓勞工可以與御來因應好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":658,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時51分）謝謝主席。有請主計長及勞動部部長。"],["主席：請主計長及洪部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：主計長好。主計長，我請教你，勞動部在勞動力發展業務裡面編了一筆預算923萬2,000元，針對這一筆預算，立法院預算中心已經講了，這是要挹注就業安定基金，請問他們這樣編列可以嗎？你有看到這筆預算是這樣編列嗎？你不知道？主計長不知道？你都沒有在看各部會編進來的預算？如果你沒有在看，那誰在看？誰在把關？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是每一個同仁都有在看，然後每一個都有注意各自部會的項目，這個部分挹注到基金，其實裡面也會寫，只是說……"],["王委員育敏：他沒有寫。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這部分可能是因為篇幅沒有那麼多，所以就沒有寫得那麼詳細。"],["王委員育敏：他沒有寫，報告裡面隻字未提，可以這樣子嗎？我先問主計長，可以這樣嗎？如果有部會是這樣子的做法，你允許嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上說明欄裡面會加寫，但是有時候如果項目太多，那就會以後在審查的時候再補充書面資料。"],["王委員育敏：這個是你們的疏失，你們根本沒有提出來，而是由立法院預算中心很盡責的指出來。","接下來我要問部長，這一筆預算是不是就是要補就業安定基金？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這筆預算的使用是這樣，其實……"],["王委員育敏：是或不是？我的時間很有限，你先回答，我還有別的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：用途上面是去補地方就業中心的人事費，但是它是由公務預算補給就安基金，就安基金再來支出地方……"],["王委員育敏：那你就是要給就安基金嘛，那為什麼你的報告裡面沒有提呢？"],["洪部長申翰：不是補就安基金，而是補地方就業中心的人事費，它是辦理就業保險的人力……"],["王委員育敏：那你不是要經過就安基金才要下去嗎？你是直接用公務預算就下到地方的就業中心嗎？不是嘛！你要進到就安基金嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：它是補給就安基金，然後就安基金做這樣的支出，它的用途是就保……"],["王委員育敏：就是這樣子嘛！所以你在行政程序上面有很大的問題，為什麼報告裡面不敢提？這麼正當的事情，為什麼提都不提？所以程序有問題。","第二個我要問你，現在就安基金的財源事實上是非常充裕的，甚至都還有盈餘，按照預算法第七十九條第一項第三款，所辦事業因重大事故經費超過法定預算時，才可以追加預算。請問你現在為什麼多加了這一筆九百多萬的經費？是有符合這樣的情況嗎？是有發生什麼重大的情況、重大的變故，導致無法因應嗎？有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為這筆錢其實它的源頭就是來自於公務預算，過去就是這樣，過去就是來自公務預算。"],["王委員育敏：今年有編啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我的意思是說就是來自於公務預算。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["洪部長申翰：但是因為現在它被刪減了以後，變成是我們在地方就業中心的人力遇缺不補。"],["王委員育敏：有被刪減嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["王委員育敏：在委員會有刪減嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：後來是被刪減的。"],["王委員育敏：後來是誰刪減？"],["洪部長申翰：表決上面是被刪減的。"],["王委員育敏：沒有啊！我們在委員會沒有刪減這筆錢。"],["洪部長申翰：這九百多萬是刪減的，是通案刪減的，可是這會讓我們在就業中心的人力變成要遇缺不補，現在比方要面對關稅的問題，可能到地方就業中心的人會變多。"],["王委員育敏：好，這一個部分我覺得你們程序上面就是有問題，你們沒有直接講你的用處，而且沒有直接講出來，你講到了這個……主計長，以後你在監督各部會提預算的時候，明明是要編給基金的，按照規定就是要講清楚，而且應該要把基金的相關預算也要送上來，這個勞動部統統都沒有做到。","接下來我要問你剛剛提到紓困的部分，現在因為關稅問題，我們看到減班休息人數暴增一倍，從1,955人，現在是3,934，暴增了一倍，上個禮拜我有要求勞動部要因應這個問題去研議紓困貸款，我認為你應該要提早啟動，年底的紓困貸款可以提早啟動。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：第二個，金額增加。所以追加預算如果真的是要用在勞工身上的，我們都同意，但是不要魚目混珠，不要是要編給基金的又不敢寫，這個部分……"],["洪部長申翰：基金是用在勞工身上的。"],["王委員育敏：部長，你可以……"],["主席：好，王委員，時間到了。"],["王委員育敏：這個要幫助勞工的，你可以做到嗎？紓困貸款的部分可不可以提早啟動？"],["洪部長申翰：對於關稅的衝擊，針對勞工的我們現在都在加碼，都在幫助跟支持的力道給強化。"],["王委員育敏：紓困貸款可不可以提早？"],["主席：王委員，把報告給你就好了，好不好？"],["王委員育敏：紓困貸款可不可以提早？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得各種方案我們可以跟委員討論。"],["王委員育敏：好，把報告給我，我要求紓困貸款的部分應該要提早，讓勞工可以有餘裕來因應，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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趙偉說 歡迎打臉他 我不敢啦但是我們來交換一下觀點跟分享一下彼此挑戰一下喔莫德斯就說自由就是做法律所允許的事的這份權利 沒有錯嘛所以翻成白話文就是說在無法無天的社會裡面沒有人是自由的"},{"start":68.451,"end":94.793,"text":"我怎麼解讀莫德斯鳩他的這些的論述呢我先從一個部分我建議主席可以把論法的精神第十一章好好再手讀一下所謂的自由就是做法律所許可的事情的權利裡頭呢所說的是自由是政治上的自由也就是公民在政治上享有的權利也就是自由人是什麼"},{"start":96.058,"end":119.341,"text":"那麼很多學者在討論這個論法的精神十一章其實都會去對應於中國專制社會也就是說人民的法律賦予他的自由他就必須在法律所允許的範圍裡面去享有他可以享有的權利所以在專制的國家社會例如在中國"},{"start":120.478,"end":149.418,"text":"即便法律跟他講你會有一些集會結社出版言論等等說得很好聽但是事實上卻用外力也就是政治力來干預這些人民的自由公民的自由所以學界在講論法的精神十一章都是在反處反思中國的現況而在台灣自由的台灣社會我也非常遺憾我們的立法院會用修正選罷法的方式來拿掉人民"},{"start":150.339,"end":175.957,"text":"在連署的權利給予他更難的難度甚至在一黨委員要修法連罷免的門檻要提高還好這個法律沒有修也就是我用孟德斯鳩的自由論來看到在台灣任何人都不能用外力去影響干預公民的自由很可惜在台灣有些立法委員如此"},{"start":176.843,"end":201.396,"text":"如果要講莫德斯鳩的自由法典裡頭另外一個部分我們要說的是莫德斯鳩一直在強調要用權力來制約權力因為自古至今擁有權力的人都可能濫用權力所以說制約權力就是捍衛自由的第一要務而在台灣如何check and balance就是回到憲法的規定權力分立的原則"},{"start":202.677,"end":216.818,"text":"沒有誰比較大權力分立立法權不能凌駕行政權行政權也不能夠來干涉立法權同樣的立法權不能干預考試院不能干預監察院等等"},{"start":218.129,"end":241.117,"text":"所以說權力的check and balance互相的制約請回到憲法的精神但是在立法院往往因為政治立場的不同用修法來凌駕憲法剛剛昭偉一直在講的憲法法庭憲法法庭什麼時候在野黨的委員這麼尊重憲法法庭了是在野黨的委員惡修了憲訴法癱瘓了憲法法庭"},{"start":243.211,"end":269.782,"text":"如果要遵從憲法法庭的裁判那請讓憲法法庭能夠恢復正常的運作不要惡修憲訴法也不要來影響延宕司法院的人事同意權來干預了這所謂用權力制約權力也就是孟德斯就一直在講的這個原則所以說我做這個分享也跟今天的主題相關來下一頁"},{"start":273.376,"end":277.554,"text":"我不是要講那個嗎 最後那三頁 對不起好 前一頁"},{"start":278.867,"end":307.261,"text":"剛剛主席有問到 我也是要關心一下考試院反年改的附闢建在弦上那會增加政府的財政負擔也會讓年金提早破產 更是踐踏了世代正義也違反憲法的權利分立原則我這裡 我知道考試院的立場 我們的立場一致我只是要提醒我們要嚴正以待因為在野黨已經建在弦上"},{"start":309.159,"end":312.985,"text":"呃 懷次長 這個部分你們有做好什麼樣的因應準備嗎"},{"start":316.356,"end":338.805,"text":"我們大概會根據目前所知道的這樣的可能調整內容我們會做一些財務上的精算以及這樣的調整大概會增加政府的負擔跟我們整個基金所要面臨的這些問題大概我們大概因為這個都是比較具體的數據需要做一些我希望你們做的比過去更多因為警察人員人事條例就是被二修通過了"},{"start":339.978,"end":366.848,"text":"除了表達我們政府的意見提供正確的訊息來提供整個年金的試算要讓所有的公務人員年金不只看得到更要領得到就是保障現役以及未來青年世代的公務同仁除了你們要闡述正確的訊息更要強化遊說在野黨的立委也要擴大對社會的對話"},{"start":368.427,"end":396.314,"text":"我們過去往往只看到行政部門做出一個我的立場結束當我們知道立法院的委員已經箭在弦上他甚至要強推的時候也不要放棄跟在野黨的委員對話以及不要放棄對社會訴求我相信社會尤其青年世代會支持考試院的立場絕對反對年金豆退爐這是我的提醒下一頁"},{"start":397.489,"end":415.449,"text":"同樣的好軍人加薪我就不說了在最後一頁剛剛主席一直在講憲法法庭為什麼行政院沒有編警察人員人事條例跟軍人加薪被片面修法增加的預算大法官已經釋憲過了"},{"start":418.055,"end":438.431,"text":"已經釋憲過了就在35年前35年前的總統是國民黨的李登輝行政院長是國民黨的李煥立法院長是國民黨的劉闊才司法院長是國民黨的林陽港換言之當時的大法官的組成也都是國民黨提名國民黨通過"},{"start":440.052,"end":458.465,"text":"但是那個時候國民黨的立法委員在立法院在審預算的時候做成一個決議要增加公務人員半個月的年終工作獎金所以國民黨的行政院提請了釋憲而國民黨的司法院"},{"start":459.895,"end":478.22,"text":"做出來是違憲的才是因為不能違反憲法70條增加政府預算膨脹政府預算所以用這一個釋字264號在35年前就已經清楚被大法官打臉"},{"start":480.342,"end":508.835,"text":"這一次行政院的警察人員人事條例也好或是國軍加薪被立法院加碼的部分當然已經有釋字264號的解釋跟支撐我在這裡說明以權力來制約權力請服從跟尊重憲法法庭的35年前就已經做出的宣判35年前的國民黨"},{"start":511.417,"end":523.394,"text":"違憲35年後的國民黨還要違憲嗎我回到我泡泡的最前面今天在講政務人員是不是要有個專法我認為立得好"},{"start":524.693,"end":542.166,"text":"比例的快更重要但是當我們看待行政中立要擴大來管制政務人員的時候我又不得不的想到了在野黨的委員要提案想修正立法院組織法"},{"start":544.087,"end":554.855,"text":"讓立法院長可以兼任黨職黨魁這就是破壞了立法院組織法2016年的修法的意識中立"},{"start":556.129,"end":576.565,"text":"所以連議事中立都要破壞現在要來擴大管控政務人員的行政中立我覺得有沒有言以律己寬矣有沒有言以律人寬以待己呢但是吳斯堯同樣支持議事要中立 行政也要中立下一頁"},{"start":578.291,"end":601.969,"text":"所以說過去立法院修的法就是要捍衛議事中立我也呼籲在野黨的委員不要現在要立法來約束政務人員的時候另外為了自己的國會議長開了另外一個後門來強害議事中立我希望這個法案不會提出下一頁但是跟今天相關的幾位"},{"start":603.612,"end":626.233,"text":"我的觀點立法的徵典從過去到現在我印象中考試院送出幾次但是好像在立法院從來沒有在委員會討論過對不對祕書長可能有的有委員會的討論一讀啊他只有一讀其實沒有送到委員會討論或者是送出法案但立法院沒有討論為什麼"},{"start":628.195,"end":647.06,"text":"為什麼這個非常多年前的事就是沒有共識就是我說的這四個爭點第一個有沒有需要在現行已有法治規範之下另立專法第二主管機關要行政院還是考試院這是老問題第三適用對象要擴大納入哪些人成為政務人員"},{"start":648.14,"end":673.452,"text":"的適用對象以及規範的行為到底要規範到哪裡這四個爭點讓過去到現在這麼多年來沒有辦法進展我認為我們可以這一屆立法院好好來討論我支持行政中立我支持政務人員的行為有一個可以討論的專法可以討論下一頁所以一個一個來講"},{"start":675.473,"end":704.513,"text":"现行的政务人员的行为散列在各个法规包括行政中立法公务员服务法公务员惩戒法联刑法一二一条都有收费的罪所以说他规范了很多公务对不起政务人员不得不得不得的这些规范已在各个法规都有了下页有没有需要专法呢国际上有没有部长次长"},{"start":705.762,"end":706.25,"text":"國際上有沒有"},{"start":707.745,"end":735.812,"text":"跟委員報告大概主要國家我們有理解應該是沒有一個專門的法律他們都是跟我們現在狀況是比較像是站在不同法律上所以我這裡做的主要的民主進步國家美國加拿大英德日等等都沒有專法因為都用其他的法的體系在落實台灣需不需要可以討論但是要立得好而不是立得快下一頁另外一個重點適用的對象我就講重點"},{"start":736.992,"end":742.003,"text":"排除了民選首長合理嗎排除了民選首長合理嗎來次長"},{"start":745.858,"end":769.148,"text":"這個當然要一起考慮因為民選地方行政首長他的權限事實上也並不亞於其他部會的政務首長所以可以邀請地方政府一起來討論嘛對不對 擴大討論嘛所以適用的對象有疑義不要掛一漏萬或者是規範了很多卻漏了關鍵的一部分最後再來"},{"start":770.248,"end":790.547,"text":"好主管機關請問你們今天召委已經排了未來再討論的過程你們喬好了沒行政院還是考試院其實跟委員報告大概從第12屆就是前面三屆以來大概在這個部分跟行政院之間都有一些不一樣的觀點"},{"start":791.67,"end":805.557,"text":"那不過這一次如果這個一方面尊重我們立法院的討論那一方面就是說我們也尊重行政院的意見都尊重那行政院呢來你們要接嗎"},{"start":807.182,"end":825.423,"text":"因為我們過去已經有表達過不過剛剛召委提的疑慮的問題我們也跟召委報告如果大家同意由我們行政院來提出那我們行政院還是會會選考試院的所以你們願意主題成為主管機關我們願意主題 然後我們會建議說"},{"start":828.286,"end":847.636,"text":"好 謝謝你的答案因為我也認為讓考試院來進行相對政治性的政務人員的管理是有問題的如果行政院願意接了這個球來研議一個專法 我支持好嗎 期待未來研議的過程行政院扮演多一點角色 最後一頁"},{"start":848.823,"end":868.784,"text":"好这就是我的结论政务人员立专法yes可以讨论但是草率仓促的立法no我们就要思量我支持不管是政院版或是市院版在立法院未来可以并案审查我也支持公听会尤其地方民选首长要排除"},{"start":869.645,"end":892.956,"text":"我們可以擴大跟學者專家中央地方政府的對話討論最後一個要配套如果有一個專法現行的其他法規要不要一併檢討我認為也需要好嗎所以在這裡提醒要有院版要有公聽會要有制度的配套會讓我們未來的政務人員專法的催生更嚴謹更周延好我們一起努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":489,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請劉秘書長、銓敘部懷次長，還有人事行政總處副人事長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦了。在司法及法制委員會我非常開心剛剛聽到吳宗憲召委引用了自由法典的創造者──孟德斯鳩過去的一些主張，這是我大學跟研究所的時候一直在研讀的文章。我剛剛還特別回去再看了一下。召委說歡迎打臉他，我不敢啦！但是我們來交換一下觀點跟分享一下、彼此挑戰一下。孟德斯鳩說，自由就是做法律所允許的事的這份權利。沒有錯嘛！所以翻成白話文就是說，在無法無天的社會裡面沒有人是自由的，我怎麼解讀孟德斯鳩的這些論述呢？我先從一個部分，我建議主席可以把《論法的精神》第11章好好再熟讀一下，所謂的「自由就是做法律所許可的事情的權利」裡頭所說的自由是政治上的自由，也就是公民在政治上享有的權利，也就是自由人是什麼。很多學者在討論《論法的精神》第11章時，其實都會去對應於中國專制社會。也就是法律賦予人民自由，他就必須在法律所允許的範圍裡面去享有他可以享有的權利。在專制的國家社會，例如在中國，即便法律跟他講，他會有一些集會、結社、出版、言論等自由，說得很好聽，實質上卻用外力，也就是政治力，來干預這些人民的自由、公民的自由。學界在講《論法的精神》第11章時，都是在反芻、反思中國的現況。而在自由的臺灣社會，我也非常遺憾，立法院會用修正選罷法的方式拿掉人民連署的權利，給予更難的難度，甚至在野黨委員要修法，連罷免的門檻也要提高，還好這個法律沒有修。我用孟德斯鳩的自由論來看，任何人都不能用外力去影響、干預公民的自由，很可惜在臺灣有些立法委員如此。","如果要講孟德斯鳩的自由法典裡頭，另外一個部分我們要說的是，孟德斯鳩一直在強調要用權力來制約權力，因為自古至今，擁有權力的人都可能濫用權力，所以制約權力就是捍衛自由的第一要務。而在臺灣如何check and balance？就是回到憲法的規定──權力分立的原則，沒有誰比較大，權力分立，立法權不能凌駕行政權，行政權也不能夠干涉立法權；同樣地，立法權不能干預考試院、不能干預監察院等等，所以權力的check and balance、互相的制約，請回到憲法的精神，但是在立法院，往往因為政治立場的不同，而用修法來凌駕憲法。","剛剛召委一直在講憲法法庭、憲法法庭，什麼時候在野黨的委員這麼尊重憲法法庭了？是在野黨的委員惡修了憲訴法，癱瘓了憲法法庭，如果要遵從憲法法庭的裁判，那請讓憲法法庭能夠恢復正常的運作，不要惡修憲訴法，也不要來影響、延宕司法院的人事同意權，干預所謂用權力制約權力，也就是孟德斯鳩一直在講的這個原則。我做這個分享，也跟今天的主題相關。","剛剛主席有問到，我也要關心一下考試院。反年改復辟、在野黨箭在弦上，那會增加政府的財政負擔，也會讓年金提早破產，更是踐踏了世代正義，也違反憲法的權力分立原則。我知道考試院的立場，我們的立場一致，我只是要提醒，我們要嚴正以待，因為在野黨已經箭在弦上了。懷次長，關於這個部分，你們有做好什麼樣的因應、準備嗎？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，我們大概會根據目前所知道的可能調整內容，做一些財務上的精算，以及這樣的調整大概會增加政府多少負擔，跟整個基金所要面臨的這些問題，因為這些都是比較具體的數據，需要一些時間來調整。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我希望你們做得比過去更多，因為警察人員人事條例就是被惡修通過了，除了要表達政府的意見、提供正確的訊息，並提供整個年金的試算外，還要讓所有公務人員的年金不只看得到，更要領得到，這是保障現役以及未來青年世代的公務同仁。你們除了要闡述正確的訊息外，更要強化遊說在野黨的立委，也要擴大對社會的對話。我們過去往往只看到行政部門做出一個「我的立場」就結束，當我們知道立法院的委員已經箭在弦上，甚至要強推的時候，也不要放棄跟在野黨的委員對話，以及不要放棄對社會訴求。我相信社會，會支持考試院的立場，尤其是青安世代。絕對反對年金「倒退嚕」，這是我的提醒。同樣的，軍人加薪，我就不說了。","再來，剛剛主席一直在講憲法法庭，為什麼行政院沒有編警察人員人事條例跟軍人加薪被片面修法增加的預算？大法官已經釋憲過了，已經釋憲過了！就在35年前，35年前的總統是國民黨的李登輝，行政院長是國民黨的李煥，立法院長是國民黨的劉闊才，司法院長是國民黨的林洋港，換言之，當時的大法官的組成也都是國民黨提名、國民黨通過。但是那個時候國民黨的立法委員在立法院審預算的時候做成一個決議，要增加公務人員半個月的年終工作獎金，所以國民黨的行政院提請了釋憲，而國民黨的司法院做出來是違憲的裁示。因為不能違反憲法第七十條增加政府預算、膨脹政府預算，所以用這一個釋字第264號在35年前就已經清楚被大法官打臉。這一次行政院的警察人員人事條例也好或是國軍加薪被立法院加碼的部分，當然已經有釋字第264號的解釋跟支撐。我在這裡說明，以權力來制約權力，請服從跟尊重憲法法庭35年前就已經做出的宣判，35年前的國民黨違憲，35年後的國民黨還要違憲嗎？","今天在講政務人員是不是要有個專法？我認為立得好比立得快更重要，但是當我們看待行政中立要來擴大管制政務人員的時候，我又不得不想到在野黨委員要提案想修正立法院組織法，讓立法院長可以兼任黨職、黨魁，這就是破壞了立法院組織法2016年修法的議事中立。連議事中立都要破壞，現在卻要來擴大管控政務人員的行政中立，有沒有嚴以律人、寬以待己呢？但是吳思瑤同樣支持議事要中立，行政也要中立。","過去立法院修的法就是要捍衛議事中立，我也呼籲在野黨的委員，不要現在要立法來約束政務人員的時候，卻為了自己的國會議長開了另外一個後門來戕害議事中立，我希望這個法案不會提出。但是跟今天相關的，我的觀點、立法的爭點，從過去到現在，我印象中考試院送出幾次，但是好像在立法院從來沒有在委員會討論過，對不對？秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：可能有的有委員會的討論，但是不一定有出委員會……"],["吳委員思瑤：它只有一讀，其實沒有送到委員會討論。"],["劉秘書長建忻：最後都不續審。"],["吳委員思瑤：或者是送出法案，但立法院沒有討論，為什麼？為什麼？"],["劉秘書長建忻：也有，這個是非常多年前的事。"],["吳委員思瑤：就是沒有共識，即我說的這4個爭點：第一，有沒有需要在現行已有法制規範之下另立專法；第二，主管機關要行政院還是考試院，這是老問題；第三，適用對象要擴大納入哪些人成為政務人員的適用對象，以及規範的行為到底要規範到哪裡？這四個爭點讓過去到現在這麼多年來沒有辦法進展，我認為我們可以在這一屆立法院好好來討論。我支持行政中立，我支持政務人員的行為有一個專法可以討論。一個一個來講，現行的政務人員的行為散列在各個法規，包括行政中立法、公務員服務法、公務員懲戒法，連刑法第一百二十一條都有收賄的罪，所以說它規範了很多政務人員不得、不得、不得的這些規範，已在各個法規都有了，有沒有需要專法呢？國際上有沒有？部長、次長，國際上有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，我們理解主要國家應該是沒有一個專門的法律，他們都是跟我們現在狀況比較像，散在不同法律上面。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以主要的民主進步國家，包括美國、加拿大、英、德、日等等都沒有專法，因為都用其他的法的體系在落實，臺灣需不需要，可以討論，但是要立得好而而不是立得快。另外一個爭點，適用的對象，我就講重點，排除了民選首長合理嗎？來，次長。"],["懷次長敍：這個當然要一起考慮，因為民選地方行政首長的權限事實上也並不亞於其他部會的政務首長，這個可以一起討論。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以可以邀請地方政府一起來討論嘛！對不對？擴大討論嘛！所以適用的對象有疑義，不要掛一漏萬或者是規範了很多卻漏了關鍵的一部分。最後再來，好，主管機關，請問你們，今天召委已經排了，未來在討論的過程，你們「喬」好了沒？行政院還是考試院？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實跟委員報告，大概從第12屆以來，就是前面3屆以來，大概在這個部分跟行政院之間都有一些不一樣的觀點，不過就這一次，一方面尊重立法院的討論，一方面我們也尊重行政院的意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：都尊重，那行政院呢？你們要接嗎？"],["張副人事長秋元：我們過去已經有表達過。不過剛剛召委提的疑慮的問題，我們也跟召委報告，如果大家同意由行政院來提出，行政院還是會銜考試院，因為這個……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以你們願意主提，成為主管機關？"],["張副人事長秋元：我們願意主提，然後我們會建議要會銜考試院，因為……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝你的答案。"],["張副人事長秋元：因為還有中央還有其他院外……"],["吳委員思瑤：因為我也認為讓考試院來進行相對政治性的政務人員管理是有問題的，如果行政院願意接這個球來研議一個專法，我支持，好嗎？期待未來研議的過程，行政院扮演多一點角色。好，這就是我的結論，政務人員立專法，Yes，可以討論，但是草率倉促的立法，No，我們就要思量。我支持不管是政院版或是試院版，在立法院未來可以併案審查。我也支持公聽會，尤其地方民選首長要排除，我們可以擴大跟學者專家、中央、地方政府的對話討論。最後一個，要配套，如果有一個專法，現行的其他法規要不要一併檢討，我認為也需要，好嗎？所以在這裡提醒，要有院版、要有公聽會、要有制度的配套，會讓未來政務人員專法的催生更嚴謹、更周延，好，我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。","下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d7423f1a72abe921b1fd1055ccb7a5c893e982cf155f147233ffe35119236caa9935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:35:52 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農業部 衛福部部長行政院的秘書長 農業部的陳部長周秘書長行政院副秘書長行政 對不起 對不起立法院周秘書長行政院秘書長請回"},{"start":35.367,"end":37.244,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":38.184,"end":66.23,"text":"我想跟你提出幾個問題是我們的院長說用追加預算來補救總預算三過頭為什麼預算中心我們立法院的預算中心會講說進半數的主管的部會的總預算三減的迴編率高達三成以上迴編率三過頭是什麼樣的一個原因呢 秘書長"},{"start":70.02,"end":74.883,"text":"我回来在当秘书长前,我在当副秘书长的时候,"},{"start":76.7,"end":92.753,"text":"華視局預算中心所寫的報告你只要直接告訴我原因為什麼有辦法就是外交部迴遍率是七成海委會是八成四環境部是七成然後農業部是54%內政部是95%我只是要知道很簡單的一個議題為什麼"},{"start":98.738,"end":110.37,"text":"不是 賴委員我只想說明預算中心所提的報告我們在行政體系裡面是尊重他我們不會去干預他怎麼寫的情形所以有沒有問題我沒辦法做這個評斷我只跟賴委員報告我們是尊重預算中心所提的他的專業意見"},{"start":121.821,"end":129.006,"text":"連周秘書長都沒有辦法那個回應好謝謝秘書長我不是不能回應我尊重他的意見農業部部長陳部長請部長那個天然災害的救助基金那個我們在114年編了39億"},{"start":142.354,"end":161.647,"text":"其實去年我們編了27億到最後我們用了57億那今年編了39億到現在丹納斯颱風花生之前已經用掉了22億那你今年你的那個天然救助基金夠不夠"},{"start":162.632,"end":176.724,"text":"我跟委員報告去年的天然災害救助金變了27億結果最後實質是80億因為有三個颱風還有很多天災的影響那今年我們變了39億部分我們預估至少到60億到70億之間"},{"start":179.006,"end":194.196,"text":"那也感謝大院這邊針對特別預算我們有做天災特別預算有編了一些天然災害基金那這一次的撥補的最佳預算的部分最主要是在所謂的土石流置山防洪的預算"},{"start":194.616,"end":218.865,"text":"部長我想這個農花基金回編了九成我們都知道你們的困境不能苦農民尤其現在這個整體來講台灣的氣候局數的一個加變這個都會影響到這個農業的一個損失所以我想這個回編率高低不是重點"},{"start":219.485,"end":242.672,"text":"合理性才是重點 要跟你加油那我們那個衛福部部長我想在這裡跟你探討一下衛福部就是我們在113 114年度的法定預算尤其是我們看到114年度的追加預算那機關署他的迴編率是99為什麼迴編率會這麼高"},{"start":246.124,"end":261.059,"text":"報告委員那個機關署其實他主要的是辦理傳染病如艾滋結核病防治的一個衛教及多元化的各種模式其實這非常重要必須要透過媒體的管道來強化與民眾的先導所以"},{"start":261.879,"end":283.547,"text":"這個我們是很實在來編需要的一個所以你想想看嘛這個媒體的試讀那還有就是市面上這個假新聞這麼多啦所以也是一樣支持你的回編啦因為如果沒有回編的話事實上我想我們就可以對人民的健康有更大的保障好 那部長也是一樣 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這個來源是什麼意思意思是不是說把我們過去立法院各個委員在委員會審查的預算就把它增加十二分之五的預算來送到大院來去做通過是這樣子嗎三檢的部分全部加十二分之五眼睛閉著加十二分之五送到立法院來是這樣子嗎"},{"start":179.745,"end":208.386,"text":"所以这个主席长所以主席长我要跟你报告在这次各部会送来的预算有一些的质询率非常的低不到五成有些连质询率多少都没有提供有些甚至要追加特别费或是连委员会不分党派都认为不应该编列的预算也全部都追加甚至有一些部会更是想要满血复活追加率是95%我想请教主席长"},{"start":209.086,"end":221.021,"text":"這樣編列預算的方式你能夠接受嗎請問這次是不是因為時間的關係導致各部會就是照你剛剛講的眼睛閉起來就追加預算沒有 絕對沒有"},{"start":222.301,"end":249.254,"text":"那你请问你是如何审查这些部门去追加预算的数字因为我们被删减数有2000名我是说各部会最近追加的这132亿的部分到底你们这个组织处有没有跟各部会跟各这个组织是一条编码跟我们各部会去说你们到底要提供什么样的资料有些连资讯都不到五成了就把这个预算书送上来了有些还要追加特别费有些连我们委员会"},{"start":250.074,"end":273.879,"text":"大家不分黨派說要刪除的也全部都追加還有部會要追加95%的真的是不能接受所以主席長要跟大家跟你拜託不要中央假叭叭的地方苦哈哈還有追加要有一個重點喔很多部會追加預算的時候根本沒有來跟各委員會辦公室溝通所以我希望這次的追加預算我希望我們大院還是要好好來審查謝謝主席長好 謝謝張委員主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時26分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請主計長。"],["主席：主計長，請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主計長好。今天討論的是追加預算，不過還是要跟主計長說：您辛苦了！各部會的預算追加完以後，中央政府的總預算也是超過3兆，還是史上新高，尤其最近因應美國關稅跟風災、天災等等的影響也提出了特別預算，因應美國關稅編列了大約5,700億、風災600億，以及這次878億的追加預算，總共已經高達7,000億，所以我要拜託各部會在運用人民納稅錢的時候，一定要好好幫人民把關每一分經費、每一分納稅錢。","今天八百多億的追加預算很大一部分是636億的地方補助款，之前大家為此有很多爭論，本席認為這是法定義務支出，不應該刪減，所以我們當然是認定這636億的地方補助款應該要追加。不過現在有地方首長表示擔心，所以本席要拜託主計長，這636億的地方補助款不能重綠輕藍，一定要好好地依照各縣市的需求來做分配。而且我們希望的是，增加預算以後，不要中央吃飽飽、地方苦哈哈！","針對各部會增加的132億預算，我想請教主計長，你們是什麼時候要求各部會要來執行這個追加預算的動作？大概是幾號？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是8月4號發文。"],["張委員智倫：所以主計長說了，8月4號才請各部會追加相關的預算。請問主計長，就您的職責來講，你有好好地來看各部會追加預算的項目嗎？有沒有一些是怪怪的項目？你來得及看嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實我們原則上是請他們追加十二分之五，就是往後5個月……"],["張委員智倫：追加多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：十二分之五？"],["張委員智倫：追加十二分之五，這是什麼意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是往後5個月，8、9、10、11、12，往後5個月的……"],["張委員智倫：意思是不是把過去立法院各個委員在委員會審查的預算增加十二分之五，送到本院來做通過？是這樣子嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，就是被刪減的部分原則上剩下5個月……"],["張委員智倫：就是刪減的部分全部加十二分之五，眼睛閉著，加十二分之五，送到立法院來，是這樣子嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，原則上剩下5個月，所以以5個月能夠執行的部分……"],["張委員智倫：主計長，我要跟你報告，在這次送來的預算資料當中，有一些部會原本的預算執行率非常低，還不到五成，有一些部會連執行率多少都沒有提供，有些甚至要追加特別費，或是連委員會不分黨派都認為不應該編列的預算也全部都追加，有些部會更是想要滿血復活，追加率是95%，我想請教主計長，這樣的預算編列方式你能夠接受嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，有一部分是因為……"],["張委員智倫：會不會是因為時間的關係，導致各部會就照你剛剛講的，眼睛閉起來就追加預算？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，絕對沒有！"],["張委員智倫：那請問你是如何審查這些部門追加預算的數字？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們被刪減數有2,067億，扣除……"],["張委員智倫：各部會這次追加的這132億，因為主計是一條鞭，你們主計總處到底有沒有跟各部會說到底要提供什麼樣的資料，以致有些部會連執行率都不到五成，就把預算書送上來，有些還要追加特別費，有些連我們委員會不分黨派說要刪除的也全部都追加，還有部會要追加95%，真的是不能接受！所以本席要拜託主計長，不要中央吃飽飽、地方苦哈哈！","最後還有一個最重要的重點，就是很多部會追加預算的時候根本沒有來跟各委員辦公室溝通，所以針對這次的追加預算，我希望本院還是要好好地來審查。謝謝主計長。"],["主席：謝謝張委員質詢。","下一位請賴惠員召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那有先請全序部 謝謝麻煩次長"},{"start":17.23,"end":39.66,"text":"好 那早安我想我們今天要討論的是關於政務人員是不是要行政中立這件事情那當然後續的法條我們也許之後還可以開公聽會來討論可是我想我們之前看到考試院的立場說得非常清楚考試院管的是公務人員而不是政務人員可是我們在看到考試院的報告裡面對於各國制度的掌握其實已經給了立法院一份研究的建議那這個建議當中"},{"start":41.441,"end":64.671,"text":"有特別提到一件事情我也想要跟您確認說其實有非常多民主國家對於政務人員相關規範並沒有所謂的專法的狀況 是不是 是不是講是 就是說沒有一個叫做 就是類似這樣法但他們的規範行為會散在其他不同的法律裡面也是有做一些規範那台灣現行也是這樣嘛 對不對目前我們大概主要是在行政中立法跟公務員服務法"},{"start":65.211,"end":80.669,"text":"大概站在這還有懲戒法也有對他們一些規劃那可是對於有些委員提案的版本你們目前有沒有什麼規劃或者是要討論的進度基本上我們是尊重但是就是程獨我們在今天提給大院委員的報告因為我們認為因為"},{"start":82.01,"end":105.497,"text":"考試院基本上是法制嘛那因為政務人員本來他的行為就很多元跟動態那未來在譬如說哪些行為應該如何或應該怎麼樣來做處理這部分我們會比較建議說行政院或許比我們更適合來做因為畢竟目前中央跟地方的政務人員以人數來講是都幾乎集中在行政院跟地方政府"},{"start":106.417,"end":129.421,"text":"政府裡面所以我們會比較認為說才會跟大院報告說我們建議未來是應該由行政院來做這樣的一個主管機關會比較適合所以會給行政院這樣的建議可是對於現在相關委員的版本裡面他們到底含括哪些人哪些範圍的人員其實我覺得也是後續要去研究包含有沒有包含所謂的民選首長這個部分我覺得可能是會大家其中會有一些歧異的地方是"},{"start":129.801,"end":149.45,"text":"好那這個我也想要建議主席也許因為主席今天已經安排了但是我還是想要建議主席也許有機會我真的覺得應該要在辦公廳會我們把這個大家對於這件事情的理解或者是範圍定義有多廣然後這件事情我覺得還可以後續來做討論好不好好謝謝那這邊先請回謝謝接下來我想要請任總跟保訓會"},{"start":158.564,"end":184.315,"text":"好早安我想要跟您分享一下我們這個禮拜在勞動部看到一個非常棒的政策說如果在職場上有被害人他有性騷擾的議題他必須要到場調解而這個調解雇主必須要安心給予工價這個部分是勞動部的政策那一樣只要相關勞動政策我相信所有公務人員可能也會想問那身為公務人員他們如果有相關議題或者是在職場上有被不當對待那"},{"start":186.616,"end":202.824,"text":"在參加性平調解或者是相關的會議當中我們的公務人員可不可以也請公假這個部分目前有相關的規範或者是討論過嗎如果沒有的話是不是可以把勞動部的這個建議也想一下在公務人員這邊我們可以怎麼規範都會比照"},{"start":208.588,"end":221.066,"text":"跟委員報告這是全部主管但是全部的請假規則裡面就是這個是公園是性評法適用的對象請假規則裡面就有規範所以性評法那邊有規範就我們就會一體適用"},{"start":225.131,"end":242.676,"text":"所以原則上如果《性平法》裡面寫法是可以的那如果是這樣我其實也想鼓勵這邊我覺得要可以宣傳對內要讓我們公務員知道如果他們真的運氣很不好在職場上遇到這樣的事情他必須要請公價我們必須要給予公價的支持好不好"},{"start":244.176,"end":269.372,"text":"那接下來要說勞動部在這個相關的文章還有提到僱傭單位如果因此有不利益的對待違反規定勞工還可以檢舉相關事證去跟勞政主管機關或是勞動部的相關專線提出申請那如果我們公務員遇到這個沒有辦法請公家的狀況他們可以向誰申訴或是可以向誰檢舉讓他們可以保障自己的權益那也展現政府機關照顧公務員的決心"},{"start":275.649,"end":292.817,"text":"沒關係 如果現在還不確定 機關會跟機關他本身就可以跟機關去反映去反映 對那如果他沒有得到相應的解決那基本上就會落到救濟的範疇那就保訓會可以跟保訓會提申訴"},{"start":293.757,"end":307.159,"text":"那我也建議保訓會其實我們已經有相關規範了也有相關可以做的路徑跟方法那真的是要加強推廣讓我們的公務人員知道政府機關在這件事情上是有決心而且已經有法規範而且也有途徑好不好"},{"start":309.066,"end":333.659,"text":"謝謝委員 建議我們會努力來做好 謝謝因為不是我不是說你們沒做到是已經有了那我們就要把它講出來好不好因為我認為勞動部做這個圖卡其實非常非常的清楚那我相信保訓會這邊應該也是好那這邊先這樣好接下來我想要談一下關於運動部即將成立可是我們其實擔心另外一件事情也想要跟您請教運動部在我們要講運動部而是說原本"},{"start":334.139,"end":362.839,"text":"系屬於教育部的行政訴訟啦 訴願性平的霸凌案在阻改的過程當中我們如何讓持續的案子被可以好好的完善的往下走這邊我想要聽聽看您的建議因為我們之前陸陸續續跟行政院考試院人總衛福部勞動部去請教如果在改組之後在不同的情況下到了不同的機關去那適用的法規在阻改前後可能會有一些不一樣那我這邊想要請你們給我一個說法就是人總跟犬序部這邊"},{"start":363.479,"end":377.856,"text":"是不是可以協助教育部先在9月9號之前有沒有機會跨部會討論協助教育部的體育署相關改組之後就是運動部升格之後相關的這些爭議的系數我們要怎麼樣銜接過去"},{"start":380.629,"end":403.823,"text":"跟委員報告運動部的籌組在行政局有組一個跨部會的相關的籌備工作小組也一直在進行大概包括各個面向 不管組織 業務包括他的預算等等有關於業務的職長或者是權限的管轄的劃分在暫停條例"},{"start":405.564,"end":420.308,"text":"第三條上面其實有一個原則性的規範應該是隨著業務去做相關的移轉但是如果有涉及到所謂訴訟等等的這個可能就必須要回歸到各個主管機關市發院 行政院 考試院勞動部委員這個意見我們會帶給這個小組來"},{"start":425.851,"end":446.813,"text":"來跟他們建議我自己猜測啦 我也比較關心性騷啦 或者是霸凌啦 行政訴訟這個我們有去做過了解目前是沒有這樣的案子目前沒有所以在改組之後也不會有相關的問題目前沒有個案在進行"},{"start":447.874,"end":463.931,"text":"我指的是在教育部當中必須要跟體育有關的在運動部成立之後目前你們整理出來是沒有我們現在的恰的結果是恰的結果是性品案件跟犯人案件目前是"},{"start":464.511,"end":485.693,"text":"沒有個案再進行OK OK OK 好那如果有的話我覺得就是再次確定如果有的話跨部會議很重要那至於有沒有行政訴訟的部分也再麻煩你們確定好不好如同您剛剛說性評的部分沒有霸凌的部分也沒有嘛對不對好那希望行政訴訟的部分也去做相關確定好那接下來還是要回到公務人員職場育兒一直以來我都有跟權敘部討論相關的問題謝謝"},{"start":489.337,"end":502.391,"text":"現在在公務人員任用法第22條裡面我們有一個非常棒的政策我要再次謝謝全序部有提到所謂友善育兒的條款所以友善育兒就是說小朋友在三歲以下的時候"},{"start":503.032,"end":525.812,"text":"如果是公務人員我可以調職到跟小朋友居住地的同一個縣市我認為這個條文利益非常良善而且確實可以讓我們的公務機關的公務人員認為政府機關在照顧我們而且協助我們育兒可是呢問題是在這個條款的第二款還有一個但書就是要實際任職達公務人員考試法鎖定限制轉調期間三分之一以上"},{"start":526.613,"end":552.847,"text":"也就是公務人員目前如果要待三年的這個基本設計來說小朋友出生後還要等一年才能轉掉也就是現行的制度會把我們的公務員跟他的孩子至少分隔一年左右那我要說你們其實在考試院有了解到這個問題考試院自己主動注意到這個問題所以在今年三月的考試院的會議就有考試委員建議你們要進一步去了解並且"},{"start":554.228,"end":565.013,"text":"確定一下有多少相關的個案受到影響未來還可以怎麼調整我在想這邊是不是可以請跟全序部討論一下你們有沒有機會進一步評估那連同你們現在了解的狀況做一個報告"},{"start":566.937,"end":596.184,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是說因為因為剛剛您提示到那個部分那是本法的規範那當然在法律沒修正前是沒有辦法變動但是我們對於這一條怎麼在執行商調裡面這一塊我們部裡面已經有您的一個草案送到考試院去那原則上就是說如果說屬於這個狀況的人他在這個機關因為我們現在未來對於商調是直接要求就是說"},{"start":597.104,"end":613.854,"text":"機關不能再無限拖啦我們會要有一個要求一個時間點那我們希望說你至少在這個機關要任職滿六個月但是我們有但書這個部分也是屬於不必不必說一定會要任職滿六個月以上的範圍啦但這還是不能排除本法三分之"},{"start":614.955,"end":643.094,"text":"三分之一的問題那這樣的話就會讓他在辦理商調的時候他就可以很清楚什麼時候他就可以掉手因為我們現在的修正方式就是直接要機關把明確的商調的時間點要把它明確出來而且我們有做了幾個限制譬如說原則上最多三個月那有特殊狀況之下的話最多可以在三個月所以最多就是六個月但是這個情形它是不會被動到三個月的狀況"},{"start":644.915,"end":664.856,"text":"因為他這是育兒的這個情形對對對所以我們其實是有機會改善而且考試院都已經提出建議了我們也有提修正案太好了非常謝謝全序部這個很正向的回應那不知道後續進度我們大概我們現在在等考試院全院的審查會如果通過以後這個應該就可以就可以那個來發布再實施"},{"start":665.416,"end":680.033,"text":"太好了我覺得這個公務機關對於友善育兒這件事情我們確實一步一步在往前走所以在這個進度上也謝謝您剛剛的進度回覆我們很希望後續在確定修完這個相關辦法之後真的可以落實到基層公務人員的身上"},{"start":680.593,"end":702.169,"text":"讓他們在友善育兒這件事情真的有覺得政府有在照顧大家那最後我要拜託一下監察院就是最近有一個獨家新聞在講到關於未成年抽血的事情我講的是未成年那我想這邊我就是簡單拜託監察院在相關新聞上有注意進度然後確保在相關研究議題上是有進度或者是監察院這邊有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":704.19,"end":726.518,"text":"有關於那個運動員提的是運動員抽血案未成年因為這個相關的新聞竟然講的是四所公立大學的未成年的部分是 那這個部分我們回去我們會立刻蒐集相關的資料來研究一下看是不是需要發文還是含查的好是 謝謝委員OK 好 謝謝那就拜託你們注意了好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時16分）謝謝主席，先請銓敘部，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：早安。我想我們今天要討論的是關於政務人員是不是要行政中立這件事情，當然後續的法條，我們也許之後還可以開公聽會來討論，可是我想我們之前看到考試院的立場說得非常清楚，考試院管的是公務人員而不是政務人員，可是我們看到在考試院的報告裡面，對於各國制度的掌握其實已經給了立法院一份研究的建議喔！這個建議當中有特別提到一件事情，我也想要跟您確認，其實有非常多民主國家對於政務人員相關規範並沒有所謂的專法的狀況，是不是這樣？"],["懷次長敍：是，就是沒有一個類似這樣的法案，但他們的規範行為會散在其他不同的法律裡面，也是有做一些規範。"],["陳委員培瑜：那臺灣現行也是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：對，目前我們大概主要是分散規範在行政中立法跟公務員服務法，還有懲戒法也有對他們的一些規範。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是對於有些委員提案的版本，你們目前有沒有什麼規劃或者是要討論的進度？"],["懷次長敍：基本上我們是尊重，但是就誠如我們在今天提給大院委員的報告，因為我們認為考試院基本上是法制，而政務人員本來他的行為就很多元跟動態，未來在譬如說哪些行為應該如何或應該怎麼樣來做處理，這部分我們會比較建議說行政院或許比我們更適合來做，因為畢竟目前中央跟地方的政務人員，以人數來講，都幾乎集中在行政院跟地方政府裡面，所以我們才會跟大院報告說，我們建議未來應該是由行政院來做主管機關會比較適合。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以會給行政院這樣的建議，可是對於現在相關委員的版本裡面，他們到底含括哪些範圍的人員，其實我覺得也是後續要去研究……"],["懷次長敍：是是是。"],["陳委員培瑜：包含有沒有包括所謂的民選首長這個部分，我覺得可能是其中大家會有些歧異的地方。"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為主席今天已經安排了，但是我還是想要建議主席，也許有機會我真的覺得應該要再辦公聽會，我們把大家對於這件事情的理解或者是範圍定義有多廣，這件事情我覺得還可以後續來做討論，好不好？好，謝謝，這邊先請回，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來我想要請人總跟保訓會。","早安。我想跟您分享一下，這禮拜我們看到勞動部有一個非常棒的政策，如果在職場上有被害人遇到性騷擾的議題，他必須要到場調解，而這個調解雇主必須要安心給予公假，這是勞動部的政策。那一樣，只要相關的勞動政策，我相信所有公務人員可能也會想問，身為公務人員，他們如果有相關議題，或者是在職場上有被不當對待，在參加性平調解或者是相關的會議當中，我們的公務人員可不可以也請公假？這個部分目前有相關的規範，或者是討論過嗎？如果沒有的話，是不是可以把勞動部的這個建議也想一下，在公務人員這邊我們可以怎麼規範？"],["張副人事長秋元：跟委員報告，這是銓敘部主管的，但是銓敘部的請假規則裡面，公務員是性平法適用的對象，請假規則裡面就有規範，所以性平法那邊有規範，我們就會一體適用。"],["陳委員培瑜：原則上，如果性平法裡面的寫法是可以的……"],["張副人事長秋元：性平法已經定的，公務人員就會受到同樣的規範。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果是這樣，我其實也想鼓勵，我覺得要可以宣傳，對內要讓公務員知道，如果他們真的運氣很不好，在職場上遇到這樣的事情必須請公假，我們必須給予公假的支持，好不好？"],["張副人事長秋元：沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。接下來要說的是，勞動部在相關的文章中提到，僱傭單位如果因此有不利益的對待、違反規定，勞工還可以檢舉相關事證跟勞政主管機關或是勞動部的相關專線提出申請。如果公務員遇到這種沒有辦法請公假的狀況，他們可以向誰申訴，或是可以向誰檢舉，讓他們可以保障自己的權益，也展現政府機關照顧公務員的決心？沒有關係，如果現在還不確定……"],["張副人事長秋元：機關會跟機關……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，會跟機關？"],["張副人事長秋元：他本身就可以跟機關反映。"],["陳委員培瑜：去反映？"],["張副人事長秋元：對。如果他沒有得到相應的解決，基本上就會落到救濟的範疇。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["張副人事長秋元：就可以向保訓會提起申訴、再申訴。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我也建議保訓會，其實我們已經有相關規範了，也有相關可以做的路徑跟方法，真的要加強推廣，讓公務人員知道政府機關在這件事情上是有決心、有法規範，而且也有途徑，好不好？"],["張副人事長秋元：謝謝委員的建議，我們會努力來做。"],["陳委員培瑜：不是，我不說你們沒做到，而是已經有了，我們就要把它講出來，好不好？因為我認為勞動部做的這個圖卡其實非常清楚，相信保訓會應該也是。","接下來我想談一下關於運動部即將成立，可是我們其實擔心另外一件事情，也想跟您請教，原本繫屬於教育部的行政訴訟、訴願、性平的霸凌案在組改的過程當中，要如何讓案子可以持續完善地往下走？我想聽聽看您的建議。因為我們之前陸陸續續跟行政院、考試院、人總、衛福部、勞動部請教，如果在改組之後、在不同的情況下到了不同的機關，適用的法規在組改前後可能會有一些不一樣，我想請你們給我一個說法，就是人總跟銓敘部是不是可以協助教育部先在9月9號之前，有沒有機會跨部會討論，協助教育部體育署在相關的改組之後，也就是升格成運動部之後，這些相關爭議的繫屬要怎麼銜接過去？"],["張副人事長秋元：跟委員報告，有關運動部的籌組，行政院其實有組一個跨部會的相關籌備工作小組，也一直在進行包括各個面向、組織、業務、預算等等。有關業務職掌或是權限管轄的劃分，在暫行條例第三條上面其實已有原則性的規範，應該就是隨著業務去做相關的移轉，但是如有涉及訴訟等等，可能就必須回歸到各個主管機關，像是司法院、行政院、考試院、勞動部。對於委員的這個意見，我們會帶到小組去給他們建議。就我自己的猜測，像委員比較關心性騷擾或是霸凌……"],["陳委員培瑜：其實不管是性平、霸凌的行政訴訟……"],["張副人事長秋元：我們有去瞭解過，目前是沒有這樣的案子。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前沒有？"],["張副人事長秋元：目前沒有。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以在改組之後也不會有相關的問題？"],["張副人事長秋元：目前沒有個案在進行。"],["陳委員培瑜：我指的是在教育部當中必須跟體育有關的，在運動部成立之後……"],["張副人事長秋元：就是體育署的這個系統，目前是……"],["陳委員培瑜：目前你們整理出來是沒有。"],["張副人事長秋元：我們現在接洽的結果是……"],["陳委員培瑜：在跨部會確定當中？"],["張副人事長秋元：接洽的結果是，性平案件跟霸凌案件目前是沒有個案在進行的。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK，我覺得就是再次確定，如果有的話，跨部會會議就很重要，至於有沒有行政訴訟的部分也再麻煩你們確定，好不好？就如同你剛剛說的，性平的部分沒有，霸凌的部分也沒有，對不對？好，希望行政訴訟的部分也去做相關的確定。","接下來還是要回到公務人員職場育兒，一直以來我都有跟銓敘部討論相關的問題。現在在公務人員任用法第二十二條裡面有一個非常棒的政策，我要再次謝謝銓敘部，其中有提到友善育兒的條款。所謂「友善育兒」就是小朋友在3歲以下，我如果是公務人員就可以調職到跟小朋友居住地的同一個縣市。我認為這個條文的立意非常良善，而且確實可以讓公務機關的公務人員認為政府機關有在照顧他們，而且協助他們育兒。","可是問題就在這個條款第二款的但書，就是要「實際任職達公務人員考試法所定限制轉調期間三分之一以上」，以目前公務人員要待三年的這個基本設計來說，小朋友出生後還要等一年才能轉調，也就是現行的制度會把公務員跟他的孩子至少分隔一年左右。其實考試院有了解到這個問題，考試院自己主動注意到這個問題，所以在今年3月考試院的會議就有考試委員建議你們要進一步去了解，並且確定一下有多少相關的個案受到影響，未來還可以怎麼調整。我在想這邊是不是可以跟銓敘部討論一下？你們有沒有機會進一步評估，並連同你們現在了解的狀況做一個報告？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告一下，因為剛剛您提示到三分之一的部分是本法的規範，那個在法律修正前是沒有辦法變動的，但是對於怎麼執行商調人員這一塊，我們部裡面已經有擬了一個草案送到考試院。原則上，如果屬於這個狀況的，因為我們未來對於商調是直接要求機關不能再無限拖……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，上次我們也討論過。"],["懷次長敍：我們會要求一個時間點，雖然我們希望你至少在這個機關要任職滿六個月，但是我們有但書，這個部分是不必一定非要任職滿六個月以上，而這還是不能排除本法規定三分之一的問題，這樣的話就會讓他在辦理商調的時候很清楚他什麼時候可以調走。因為我們現在的修正方式就是直接要機關把商調時間點明確出來，而且我們有做了幾個限制，譬如原則上最多三個月，有特殊狀況之下最多可以再三個月，頂多……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以最多就是六個月？"],["懷次長敍：對，但是這個情形是不會用到三個月的那個狀況，因為這是育兒的情形。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，所以我們其實是有機會改善，而且考試院都已經提出建議。"],["懷次長敍：是，我們也有提修正案送到……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了，非常謝謝銓敘部這個很正向的回應，不知道後續進度大概……"],["懷次長敍：我們現在在等考試院全院的審查會，如果通過以後應該就可以發布實施。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了，我覺得公務機關對於友善育兒這件事情確實一步一步在往前走，所以在這個進度上也謝謝您剛剛的回復，我們很希望後續在確定修完這個相關辦法之後，真的可以落實到基層公務人員身上，讓他們在友善育兒這件事情上真的覺得政府有在照顧大家。","最後我要拜託一下監察院，最近有一個獨家新聞講到關於未成年抽血的事情，我講的是未成年，這邊我就是簡單拜託監察院在相關新聞上注意進度，然後確保在相關研究議題上是有進度，或者是監察院有沒有什麼想法？"],["黃處長奕元：委員提的是運動員抽血案嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：未成年，因為相關新聞講的是4所公立大學未成年的部分。"],["黃處長奕元：是，這個部分回去我們會立刻蒐集相關的資料，研究一下是不是有需要發文還是函查的情況。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["黃處長奕元：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，那就拜託你們注意了，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/1637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主席長你今天在這邊我們今天討論除了追加預算追加預算你們很大的一個理由是因為你們認為說之前行政部門都已經審理過了我們預算有支出必較所以即便立法部門把你們刪除了你們還要再把他給搶回來要把他要回來"},{"start":254.585,"end":274.901,"text":"那現在本席一樣問的是如果說明年的預算你的職業軍人的一個加薪以及警察人士條例的相關的退付這個是國軍弟兄跟警察消防的不要說救命錢啊根本就是他們的退休金他們最基本的保障立法民進黨政府現在可以傲慢到不編列"},{"start":276.235,"end":276.556,"text":"私底下請處紀長再來說明"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":430,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時21分）主席謝謝。抓緊時間，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["洪委員孟楷：先請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：那麼多的部會，大家也都關心所謂回編率的部分，本席在前天也講過，今年會是史上預算被刪減之後，追加預算回編率最高的一個會期。我請教預算的流程，很多人可能還是不清楚，就是在編列預算的時候，各部會報進來，主計處是不是要先做一些把關，不可能每個部會報出來的預算都通過嘛！所以主計處就先做把關，有一些預算可能真的財源不足也會退回，各部會是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。所以現在所謂的回編，我們看到你們講的是一定要這麼多的預算，就是當初主計處這邊有做一些把關，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是。這回編率的部分是針對總預算裡被刪減，因為今年有指定刪減，還有不可以流用……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啦！本席只是要……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不可以流用，這樣造成執行的困難，所以才要來辦理追加，讓他們的業務能夠推展順利。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在要問的是，你們在送出來每年的總預算都有先做一個把關，你們才會送出總預算來立法院審查嘛，對不對？是嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。除了今年的追加預算我們可以再持續討論以外，更重要是很多人在關心，就是我們已經通過的職業軍人的加薪以及警察人事條例的退撫，不管是警察、消防退撫相關條例的預算，什麼時候通過的？第三十五條在去年通過的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想請教在送出來的總預算裡並沒有把警察人事條例以及職業軍人加薪放進去，是內政部、國防部這些主責單位沒有編？還是主計處把他們擋掉？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對於這個部分，因為行政院已經提釋憲……"],["洪委員孟楷：你先不要跟我講這個釋憲，是行政院提釋憲，但是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：又提暫停處分，所以這個部分，我們現在要等釋憲的結果，再依照釋憲結果來編列。"],["洪委員孟楷：我知道，現在要看釋憲結果，但是本席現在要問的是，當初是內政部跟國防部沒有把這個預算放進去，還是你們主計處把它擋掉？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們也沒有權力把它擋掉，這個部分的金額因為涉及到重大……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊！你剛才講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它本身要聲請釋憲。"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛才講是要把關，本席現在站在這邊以及所有部會都過來，本席也要為立法院的尊嚴來捍衛，本席也要為我們辛苦的國軍、我們的警察、消防同仁來捍衛，就像很多人在講，明明警察人員人事條例第三十五條在去年上個會期就通過了退休金退撫的機制，結果行政部門、民進黨政府可以那麼傲慢的不尊重立法院的一個決議，明年的預算不編，還說現在要聲請釋憲，行政院是大法官嗎？如果有相關的部分，照理講不是應該先依法行政、先編列，如果未來真的釋憲有什麼狀況再去溯回，而不是現在不編列，要等到憲法法庭的審理之後才來做嘛，不是嗎？所以很多人才講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：它涉及到制度的影響，等於涉及全部軍公教人員的衡平性問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果現在提起釋憲的話，我們認為……你看！你又扯另外一個議題了嘛！","我現在在講的是，如果有人認為繳稅是違憲而聲請繳稅釋憲，那我可以在釋憲結果還沒有出來的時候不繳稅嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是財政部的問題，這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：又推給財政部了！不是，主計長，你今天在這邊，我們今天討論的除了追加預算……追加預算你們很大一個理由是認為之前行政部門就已經審理過了，而預算是錙銖必較，所以即便立法部門把你們刪除了，你們還要再把它給搶回來、要把它要回來，現在本席一樣問的是，如果說明年的預算，職業軍人加薪以及警察人事條例的相關退撫是國軍弟兄跟警察、消防的，不要說救命錢啦，根本就是他們的退休金，他們最基本的保障！"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：結果民進黨政府現在可以傲慢到不編列！"],["主席：請私底下再……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會依照釋憲結果做調整。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣會不會失職啊？"],["主席：私底下再請主計長說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：主計長，這個議題我會再追。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員的關心其實我們剛剛有提過我們的總追加是28.8億"},{"start":94.799,"end":122.309,"text":"那里面有15亿呢几乎都是用在地方县市政府包括人行道的安全还有生活圈道路那其中除了这个以外呢大概就是在打炸的部分打炸呢包括我们的网路流量记录器还有明宣费大概是5亿所以加在一起大概是20亿左右那如果说是这样的情况的时候我们之前立法院在省的部分呢那就等于是没有太大的效率我们在委员会的时候有充分讨论过但是在院会的时候没有被充分讨论过"},{"start":123.549,"end":142.177,"text":"謝謝部長我現在想請教一下外交部因為外交部在這一次的時候回編數也很高它增編數這邊高達11億我想特別問一下因為在這個11億當中的時候他就簡單講到一個未鞏固跟擴展邦交我想請教一下因為現在剩下90、11、12月剩下4個月的一個時間我們在這邊追加這個項目當中的時候"},{"start":147.119,"end":156.178,"text":"我想說最主要是要用在什麼地方是要鞏固什麼樣的邦誼沒有辦法到明年的就是公務預算當中去編列嗎"},{"start":157.403,"end":182.703,"text":"報告委員 拓邦是隨時在產生的我可以跟國委員報告我個人現在也在處理很多拓邦的事情拓邦要跟對方協商的時候我總要跟對方講我口袋有些條件跟他協商所以這個是我們主要用但是這次增加了大部分也是在健保的就是外交人員的健保這是到今年才出來的"},{"start":183.283,"end":199.325,"text":"外交人員健保的部分對 健保有國家付所以這今年出來是去年沒有辦法編進去的所以這11億當中很大一部分是在外交人員健保的部分嗎兩億兩億是外交人員健保那跟鞏固跟擴展邦交當中的時候會不會跟我們的邦交的增加或減少有關"},{"start":200.305,"end":223.248,"text":"有 有 抱歉沒聽清楚我們要追加這11億會不會跟我們的邦交的增加或者是減少有關我們在努力 在這方面真的有在努力我本身有在處理這個問題 裡面有榮邦計畫然後還有一筆錢 那個1億是外管租金的增加就現在整個環境通貨膨脹 使得外管的租金必須增加"},{"start":223.448,"end":244.067,"text":"OK 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謝謝好 麻煩監察院的代表好 我先請教副人事長委員好這裡面認為的政務人員應該包括哪一些如果從字面上的定義看起來"},{"start":44.31,"end":71.461,"text":"最大多數就是政治任命的 像部會首長還有地方政府的 一起機關首長 一起主管這些就是政務人員 還有有些是憲法跟法律規定他獨立行職職權 有任體制的好 那你認為縣市長是不是政府人員縣市長是民選人員 民選的行政首長那縣市長要不要被規範要有行為基準法"},{"start":73.478,"end":83.213,"text":"這個就是我們過去一直在討論然後就是大家意見會比較分歧的這個討論多久了"},{"start":85.964,"end":110.502,"text":"討論的時間就剛剛其實幾位首長有報告過那個委員也大概大概有講這個從民國八十幾年一直從考試院跟行政院總共送了五次的這個那都長不一樣嗎對這一個人員的定義都長不一樣定義就是每次討論的時候就是哪些要納進來 哪些不納進來"},{"start":114.265,"end":140.845,"text":"包括還有一些像兼任的可是他的職務看起來是不是是不是也像這個一般的這個行政的政務官有類似的職長可是他的相關的權益譬如說他可能是無給職等等的無給職兼任然後是這個委員會的委員所以這個是的確這個範圍的定義上面"},{"start":143.927,"end":154.372,"text":"會有不同的意見會有不同意見所以這一塊在這幾年的討論也沒有大家沒有共識那最主要是出在哪裡出在有些人不想要被納進來還是怎麼樣因為這個各有各的觀點各有各的觀點就是覺得權力義務總是對等我們到底是管理的強度跟他這個他的這個"},{"start":170.455,"end":172.276,"text":"那你們認為國營事業的董事長要不要被規範"},{"start":192.005,"end":219.803,"text":"國營事業的董事長他現在中立法是他是准用的範圍他本來就有被規範沒有 我是說如果現在要立這個法的話立這個法我們會認為他不是政務人員所以國營事業相關的就不會被規範在裡頭對 因為他是公務員任用法分支出來的是某一種類型的好 OK那我先請問這個監察院"},{"start":221.943,"end":246.968,"text":"我們現在在做公職財產申報除了這一般的文官 就是事務官在一定的職等以上就要申報那有些像有些縣市政府的官員有些被抽籤抽中了也要申報 我記得是這樣那請問這個申報的這些人當時監察院現在執行這個的時候他要財產申報 當時為什麼這些人要申報"},{"start":253.766,"end":278.679,"text":"報告委員公職人員財產申報處的目的就是希望透過財產申報的制度讓所有的公職人員的財產都能夠暴露在陽光之下陽光是一個最好的防腐劑然後可以檢視所有包括政務人員還有公務人員他們的財產的狀況對好那這一個財產申報過程中有沒有出現政務人員這四個字"},{"start":283.413,"end":297.699,"text":"報告委員 裡面也有出現政務人員的相關規定拿來 副人事長可不可以按照公職委員財政申報法裡頭寫的政務人員就這樣定義不然我們就會出現兩個法的政務人員的定義不一樣"},{"start":308.511,"end":327.139,"text":"這個部分你要再慎重的考慮啦比如說我們討論的過程像大法官最高行政院法院院長他們其實本身的中立甚至比一般的政務官員要受到更嚴格的要求"},{"start":327.859,"end":345.359,"text":"所以這個各種類型它的強度都會有不同那這個大家也有不一樣的意見就是說這一塊到底要不要納進來那其實就是在範圍的界定上需要譬如說像我們"},{"start":347.021,"end":369.58,"text":"剛剛有報告說地方的不管是民選首長其實他不是政務官他一般的認知上不會說他叫政務人員給他政治任命但是他的相關的權限跟影響其實又跟政務首長"},{"start":370.962,"end":392.881,"text":"有非常類似的地方那現在框最大的問題是要把它的管理管到那個強度到底能不能比較適切的去符合它的比例的原則所以這個是大家就是在討論但是目前就是還沒有正式的這個大家比較確定的"},{"start":394.283,"end":403.477,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話那如果用監察院的這個財產申報裡頭的政務人員你覺得哪一些應該要排除啊"},{"start":405.257,"end":433.491,"text":"我們覺得我們自己的意見啦我們是認為那個大法官跟那個這個最高法院的最高法院行政最高行政法院這些因為他有比較嚴格的要求那我們自己本身總署的意見會是認為這些可能排除上我們會認為適當那除了這些排除還有沒有其他各個領域的人是不是贊同我們的看法"},{"start":434.391,"end":448.596,"text":"這個我們就沒有完全的把握因為也有人阻擋把它放進去所以你們要去了解各個領域的狀況因為涉及到各院嘛還要涉及到就算在行政院也還要涉及到地方政府"},{"start":449.625,"end":467.594,"text":"所以就是牽涉的範圍的確是比較大的好那我是不是建議這樣接下來如果這個案子行政院相關的部會要提相關的案子進來討論的話那我是建議是不是就用這個公職員財產申報有政務人員以他為基礎然後看哪一些認為應該要剔除"},{"start":469.81,"end":472.793,"text":"好 委員您的意見我們會帶回去參考對 進行這樣的討論是不是會比較容易聚焦啦是阿不然這樣整個都開花了搞不清楚現在要設定的範圍那掛一路萬或者是千年無辜就把一些"},{"start":486.168,"end":505.274,"text":"不應該納進來 納進來有些人一時興起說那種職位要納進來有一些沒提到就忘了他其實他也有必要這一塊再請你們進行相關的研議用最快的時間再把他送到院裡頭立法院裡頭來讓我們進行相關的討論好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時7分）請行政院人事行政總處副人事長還有監察院的代表，謝謝。"],["主席：請副人事長和監察院代表。"],["王委員義川：我先請教副人事長。"],["張副人事長秋元：委員好。"],["王委員義川：你們認為的政務人員應該包括哪一些？如果從字面上的定義看起來。"],["張副人事長秋元：最大多數就是政治任命的，像部會首長還有地方政府的一級機關首長、一級主管，這些就是政務人員，還有一些是憲法跟法律規定他獨立行使職權、有任期制的，這是……"],["王委員義川：好，那你認為縣市長是不是政務人員？"],["張副人事長秋元：縣市長是民選的行政首長。"],["王委員義川：那縣市長要不要被規範、要不要有行為基準法？"],["張副人事長秋元：這個就是我們過去一直在討論、大家意見比較分歧的地方。"],["王委員義川：這個討論多久了？"],["張副人事長秋元：討論的時間，剛剛其實幾位首長都有報告過，委員也大概有講，這個從民國八十幾年到現在，考試院跟行政院總共送了五次的修正草案進來。"],["王委員義川：對人員的定義都長不一樣，是不是？"],["張副人事長秋元：定義就是每次討論的時候哪些要納進來、哪些不納進來，包括還有一些像兼任的，他的職務看起來是不是也像一般的政務官，有類似的職掌，可是他的相關權益，譬如他可能是無給職等等。"],["王委員義川：無給職、兼任某委員會的委員？"],["張副人事長秋元：的確，這個範圍的定義上面會有不同的意見。"],["王委員義川：會有不同意見，所以這一塊在這幾年的討論，大家沒有共識，最主要原因是出在哪裡，出在有些人不想要被納進來還是怎麼樣？"],["張副人事長秋元：這個各有各的觀點，只是覺得權利義務總是對等，到底我們管理的強度跟他職務的程度，或者是我們給他的相關的權益等等類型很多，所以討論上大家一直沒有一個共識。"],["王委員義川：那你們認為國營事業的董事長要不要被規範？"],["張副人事長秋元：國營事業的董事長，現在是中立法準用的範圍，他本來就有被規範。"],["王委員義川：我是說如果現在要立這個法的話。"],["張副人事長秋元：立這個法，我們會認為他不是政務人員。"],["王委員義川：所以國營事業相關的就不會被規範在裡頭？"],["張副人事長秋元：對，因為他是公務員任用法分支出來的，是某一種類型的，所以不是……"],["王委員義川：好，OK！那我先請問監察院，我們現在在做公職人員財產申報，除了一般的文官，就是事務官在一定的職等以上就要申報，有些像縣市政府的官員被抽籤抽中了也要申報嘛，我記得是這樣。"],["黃處長奕元：是。"],["王委員義川：請問申報的這些人，當時監察院在執行財產申報的時候，為什麼這些人要申報？"],["黃處長奕元：報告委員，公職人員財產申報處的目的就是希望透過財產申報的制度，讓所有公職人員的財產都能夠暴露在陽光之下，因為陽光是一個最好的防腐劑，然後可以檢視所有，包括政務人員還有公務人員他們財產的狀況。"],["王委員義川：對，好。那這一個財產申報過程中，有沒有出現「政務人員」這四個字？"],["黃處長奕元：報告委員，財產申報裡面也有出現政務人員的相關規定。"],["王委員義川：來，副人事長，那可不可以按照公職人員財產申報法裡頭寫的「政務人員」就這樣定義？不然我們就會出現兩個法的政務人員的定義不一樣。"],["張副人事長秋元：這部分可能要再慎重的考慮，譬如說我們討論的過程，像大法官、最高行政法院的院長，他們其實本身的中立甚至比一般的政務官員要受到更嚴格的要求，所以各種類型的強度都會有不同，這個大家有不一樣的意見，就是說這塊到底要不要納進來，其實就是在範圍的界定上需要，譬如說像我們剛剛有報告，地方的民選首長，其實他不是政務官，一般的認知上不會說他叫……"],["王委員義川：政務人員。"],["張副人事長秋元：給他政治任命，但是他的相關的權限跟影響，其實又跟政務首長有非常類似的地方，那到底是要……"],["王委員義川：那現在框最大的……"],["張副人事長秋元：要把他的管理管到那個強度，到底能不能比較適切的去符合他的比例原則，這個大家就是在討論，但是目前還沒有正式的大家比較確定的答案。"],["王委員義川：如果是這樣子的話，如果用監察院的財產申報裡頭的政務人員，你覺得哪一些應該要排除？"],["張副人事長秋元：就我們自己的意見，我們是認為大法官跟法院體系的，包括最高法院、最高行政法院這些，因為他有比較嚴格的要求，我們自己本身總處的意見會認為，這些可能排除上我們會認為不適當，但是……"],["王委員義川：那除了這些排除，還有沒有別的？"],["張副人事長秋元：但是其他各個領域的人是不是贊同我們的看法，這個我們就沒有完全的把握，因為也有人主張把他放進去。"],["王委員義川：所以你們要去了解各個領域的狀況嘛。"],["張副人事長秋元：因為這個涉及到各院嘛，就算在行政院也還涉及到地方政府，就是牽涉的範圍的確是比較大。"],["王委員義川：好，那我是不是建議這樣？接下來如果這個案子，行政院相關的部會也要提相關的案子進來討論的話，我是建議是不是就用公職員財產申報的政務人員為基礎，然後看哪一些認為應該要剔除……"],["張副人事長秋元：好，委員的意見我們會帶回去參考。"],["王委員義川：對，進行這樣的討論是不是會比較容易聚焦。"],["張副人事長秋元：是。"],["王委員義川：不然這樣整個都開花了，搞不清楚現在要設定的範圍，掛一漏萬或者是牽連無辜，把一些不應該納進來的也納進來，有些人一時興起說那一種職位也要納進來，有一些沒提到就忘了他，其實他也有必要納入。這一塊再請你們進行相關的研議，用最快的時間再把他送到院裡頭、立法院裡頭來讓我們進行相關的討論，好不好？"],["張副人事長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員義川：好。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d74bca09bfc94b67398d1055ccb7a5c893e982cf155f147233f826982371071214a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"10:11:16 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謝謝主席我們先有請那個陳淑芝主記長那為了節省時間呢 我就比較不好意思我們請那個李遠部長一起上來李遠部長請對 謝謝"},{"start":18.24,"end":46.781,"text":"委員好好 主席長好我想請教一下我們在114年的預算提案中有沒有任何一案是刪減地方政府一般性補助款的有還是沒有沒有但是問題是它有公案刪減要我們進行刪減636如果沒有刪減地方一般性補助款但是今年你去扣減地方一般性補助款636億我想我們實在覺得是非常沒有道理那我們來看依照現行中央對直轄縣市政府補助的辦法當中"},{"start":47.742,"end":57.632,"text":"如果你要去刪減對地方的補助款不是不可以但是必須要在條件之下才能來做我想現在我們來看一下主席長應該也非常清楚我們在相關辦法當中第12條跟第13條的規定"},{"start":63.979,"end":84.011,"text":"要以下四種情況中央才能夠扣減我們的補助款包括地方政府如果在年度的總預算追加預算跟特別預算收支的籌劃編制跟共同的這個費用標準沒有依照相關法律等等辦法去籌編那麼我們可以扣減第二如果"},{"start":84.631,"end":111.776,"text":"這個有依法得徵收制裁員而不徵收這也是第二個條件第三個 未依財政收支劃分法跟相關法律規定負擔因負擔之經費 第三項第四項 未依地方制度法規定支付被那個代行處理因負擔的費用要有符合以上四點不是不能扣減 可以扣減但我就請教主計長那我們現在各縣市政府是違反以上四項哪一項"},{"start":112.896,"end":127.044,"text":"上面的事項主要是因為它是一種考核的一個辦法考核辦法裡面規定你有違反沒有 我就請教你有沒有違反嘛主席長 我想喔今天時間很有限"},{"start":127.944,"end":133.345,"text":"他要求我們自行刪減自行刪減我們今天並沒有刪到地方政府一般性的補助款你這樣去為難地方政府就是不對那如果我們都沒有違反以上任何一款的規定那你不可以這樣去做那麼同時我想主計總署你在編列114年中央政府總預算書的時候也發文給立法院我們都知道在法律義務上面這些支出其實你不可以去刪減"},{"start":156.069,"end":167.161,"text":"你沒有依據你想刪就刪想轉嫁就轉嫁我想我們要提出最大的一個抗議另外我們可以看到以本席的選區是我們的桃園區你現在扣了這個扣減636億地方性一般的補助款那你怎麼分配的"},{"start":175.45,"end":189.042,"text":"我們可以看到你以上面來看平均大概27%我們桃園其實過去一般性補助款已經是六都最低了這一次還被這個比例上是27.3%其實我真的覺得是非常的欺負我們桃園235萬的這個民眾所以我想這邊跟組織長講"},{"start":195.607,"end":214.998,"text":"無論這個追加預算現在後面是什麼狀況有沒有這個追加預算立法院在8月1號已經通過決議要行政院要把這個扣減地方一般性補助款要立即租來這個撥補地方我希望主席長要能夠去做到接下來我想剩下的時間我請教一下我們李遠部長"},{"start":215.959,"end":218.843,"text":"其實延續一樣我想地方經費上的不足部長您還記得吧去年的時候我們有一起到桃園市勘察我們的美術館對不對是那在當時您也看到這個美術館對桃園市非常重要"},{"start":231.883,"end":238.165,"text":"但過去因為一些減項這個工程的一些經費不足的問題很多的問題在裡面所以我們希望用等比例那文化部一樣給我們桃園市的美術館來支持當時你也承諾了但現在你卻要求我們這個地方政府自行籌編我想時間也是很有限我只跟部長講這一點我們不能接受第一個政治誠信第二個美術館卻有所需第三個"},{"start":257.731,"end":274.404,"text":"我想這個美術館未來對我們美術的各方面的也幫助助益很大我們希望部長是不是在會後您能夠找一個時間到我辦公室來做說明該給予桃園市補助的一塊錢都不要少 好嗎好 會後跟黃委員的說明好 我會後現在請鄭振淺委員質詢 請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":365,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時11分）謝謝主席，先有請陳淑姿主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["萬委員美玲：為了節省時間，比較不好意思，請李遠部長一起上來。"],["主席：請李遠部長。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：主計長好。我想請教一下，我們在114年的預算提案中有沒有任何一案是刪減地方政府一般性補助款的，有還是沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，但是問題它有通案刪減要我們自行刪減636億。"],["萬委員美玲：好，如果沒有刪減地方一般性補助款，但是今年你去扣減地方一般性補助款636億，我們實在覺得非常沒有道理。","我們來看，依照現行中央對直轄縣市政府補助的辦法當中，如果你要去刪減對地方的補助款，不是不可以，但是必須要在條件之下才能來做。我們來看一下，主計長應該也非常清楚，在相關辦法當中，第十二條跟第十三條規定要有以下四種情況中央才能扣減我們的補助款，包括地方政府如果在年度的總預算、追加預算跟特別預算收支之籌劃、編製及共同性費用標準等，沒有依照相關法律等等辦法去籌編，那我們可以扣減；第二，如果有依法得徵收之財源而不徵收，這是第二個條件；第三個，未依財政收支劃分法跟相關法律規定負擔應負擔之經費；第四個，未依地方制度法規定支付被代行處理應負擔之費用，要符合以上四點其中一點，不是不能扣減，可以扣減。我就請教主計長，現在各縣市政府是違反以上四項的哪一項？"],["陳主計長淑姿：上面的四項，主要是……"],["萬委員美玲：我先請教你，有沒有違反？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它是一種考核的辦法，考核辦法裡面規定你有違反以上四項其中之一才需要刪減。"],["萬委員美玲：不是，我就請教你，有沒有違反？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是現在是……"],["萬委員美玲：主計長，今天時間很有限……"],["陳主計長淑姿：總預算的審查要求我們自行刪減，要刪減這636億……"],["萬委員美玲：自行刪減，我們今天並沒有刪到地方政府一般性的補助款，你這樣去為難地方政府就是不對，如果我們都沒有違反以上任何一款的規定，你不可以這樣做。","同時，主計總處在編列114年中央政府總預算書的時候有發文給立法院，我們都知道在法律義務上面，這些支出其實你不可以去刪減，你沒有依據，你想刪就刪，想轉嫁就轉嫁，我們要提出最大的抗議。","另外，我們可以看到，以本席的選區桃園區，你現在扣減636億地方性一般的補助款，那你怎麼分配的？以簡報上面來看，平均刪減大概27%，我們桃園其實過去一般性補助款已經是六都最低了，這一次被刪減的比例是27.3%，其實我真的覺得非常欺負我們桃園235萬的民眾，所以我跟主計長講，無論之後有沒有追加預算，立法院在8月1號已經通過決議，要行政院把扣減地方一般性補助款立即足額來撥補地方，我希望主計長要去做到。","接下來，剩下的時間，我請教一下李遠部長，因為地方上、經費上的不足，部長，你還記得吧？去年的時候，我們有一起到桃園市勘查我們的美術館嘛，對不對？"],["李部長遠：是的。"],["萬委員美玲：在當時你也看到美術館對桃園市非常重要，但過去因為一些減項，工程一些經費不足的問題，很多的問題在裡面，所以我們希望用等比例，文化部一樣給我們桃園市的美術館支持，當時你也承諾了，但現在你卻要求地方政府自行籌編。我想時間很有限，我只跟部長講，這一點我們不能接受，第一個，政治誠信；第二個，美術館確有所需；第三個，美術館未來對我們美術各方面幫助、助益很大。我們希望部長是不是在會後，你能夠找一個時間到我辦公室來做說明？該給予桃園市補助的，一塊錢都不要少，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["主席：好，會後請再跟萬委員說明。"],["李部長遠：好，我會的。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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主席長好我想我還是要特別問到預算法第79條根據你的法律專業你的這個專業來說這次追加預算到底是它的合理性跟它的正當性到底符合79條的哪一個要件"},{"start":28.731,"end":56.242,"text":"這個部分有一部分譬如說我們的原民會的淨化補償它是依照符合哪一個四款裡面哪一個要件我告訴你這是每個人都要去追問就是它的釋法性的問題因為你這次預算你這次預算高達878億元其中最大比的636億元它是一般性補助款已經條文明明告訴你它就是一個法律性的義務的支出而且已經三度通過總統公告了那你現在把它追加回來"},{"start":57.102,"end":66.445,"text":"我個人覺得這就好像是你把地方真的是把他先餓死了你再給他糖吃或者是你先揍一頓再給他貼布一樣這對我們來說這是一個違法的一件事情好那現在呢因為地方政府嗷嗷待哺也不想讓他們為難所以有可能在這六三六一當中呢我們把他補回來但是我只要請問這個組計長那原本要求你們去做自行調整刪減的這個項目到底在哪裡"},{"start":85.371,"end":104.03,"text":"給你追加回去那你原來本來是叫你要來做你到底放在哪裡本來是3-939嘛那我們3-939沒有 這631到底調整放在哪裡哪一個調整631 6361可能立法院會把它追加通過但是這個本來就叫你要自行調整的你的項目是放在什麼地方"},{"start":104.932,"end":121.846,"text":"一般縣市補助的部分你應該放到什麼地方我的時間的關係我要求主計長你必須要把你自行調整刪減的部分一定要有一份報告告訴我們這是我們的天職要來監督你這個部分調節的部分在什麼地方當初通案刪減939那我們除了刪減304億之外現在636就是沒有辦法刪減所以才會"},{"start":128.531,"end":155.071,"text":"好吧沒有辦法深言不分你條例給我嘛我只能告訴你這6361因為地方的需求我們要我只要奉勸主席長真的心中要有主計不能只有算計這是非常非常重要的最重要是我們從來沒有算計過我們是依法行事你沒有完全沒有依法因為過去這整個條文過來好那主席長你先暫時留著我是不是時間暫停我們請那個我們的李紀勇我們的中選會的李紀勇主委過來一下好中選會的李主委時間暫停了他走路時間來請"},{"start":161.977,"end":184.376,"text":"也請主席長一起主席長也一起委員好是 這一次我們的公投將罷免共計花的15億4,324萬其中大部分的部分這個錢都是由我們的第二預備金來支出嗎 沒有錯吧公投跟罷免都是第二預備金嗎 什麼時候通過的什麼時候已經給了你的預備金"},{"start":186.926,"end":194.533,"text":"都已經撥了8月15號嘛 都已經撥的錢也用完了那我請問這次追加預算當中為什麼中選會還是一模一樣的還是BNA的15億4324錢不都用完了嗎還剩下4個月的時間啊目前還剩下4個月的時間你們追加這筆預算是要幹嘛告訴我們發明還有7個委員沒有經過還要來做這樣的事嗎"},{"start":208.593,"end":225.536,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這一次申請動資二倍金達到15億多了我知道所以我只告訴你你為什麼還要追加對你錢都花了為什麼追加預算中選會還要編這筆預算理由在哪裡因為它對於行政院二倍金的影響非常的大"},{"start":225.796,"end":242.175,"text":"那是行政院的二倍金二倍金本來就是要做天災人禍殘養二倍金就沒有錯嘛那因為我們佔的比例太大百分之二十那會影響到行政院動這個二倍金使用的空間行政院把你的這個中選會還放在你們這個項目本身來說就是有問題"},{"start":246.46,"end":251.701,"text":"如果大院如果大院支持我們用追加的方式的話那我們會把這15億歸電給行政院的二倍金歸電給行政院二倍金這就是你們挪來挪去是違反這個所謂的這個紀律問題嘛挪過來挪過去那我只問主計長下一次我們如果還有罷免還有這個公酬的話你是放在什麼地方是放在第二預備金還是放在追加預算裡主計長回答這個問題"},{"start":275.706,"end":278.508,"text":"好 最後一個問題要不要回答時間到了如果時間來得及我們就辦追加如果來不及還是必須動第二預備金那要看你時間的這個東西要從挪過來弄過去錢坤大挪移本身對我們來說這就是財政紀律上需要被檢討的啦謝謝喔簡單來講錢用完了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時6分）謝謝召委，先請陳主計長。"],["主席：黃國昌委員回來一下，好嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主計長好，我還是要特別問，預算法第七十九條，根據你的法律專業跟你的專業來說，這次追加預算它的合理性跟它的正當性到底符合第七十九條哪一個要件？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有一部分，譬如說我們原民會的禁伐補償是依照法律……"],["柯委員志恩：符合四款裡面哪一個要件？我告訴你，這是每個人都會去追問適法性的問題，因為你這次預算高達878億元，其中最大筆的636億元一般性補助款，條文明明告訴你，它就是一個法律性義務的支出，而且已經三讀通過、總統公告了，那你現在要把它追加回來，我個人覺得這就好像是你把地方先餓死、再給他糖吃，或者是你先揍他一頓，再給他貼貼布一樣。這對我們來說是違法的一件事情。","現在因為地方政府嗷嗷待哺，也不想讓他們為難，所以有可能這636億我們把它補回來，但是我要請問主計長，原本要求你們去做自行調整、刪減的項目到底在哪裡？給你追加回去，那原來叫你要自行調整、刪減的項目，你到底放在哪裡？"],["陳主計長淑姿：本來是刪減939億餘元嘛，那我們刪減了……"],["柯委員志恩：調整到底放在哪裡？"],["陳主計長淑姿：哪一個調整？"],["柯委員志恩：636億可能立法院會把它追加通過，但是這本來就叫你要自行調整的，你的項目是放在什麼地方？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般縣市補助的部分……"],["柯委員志恩：你放在什麼地方？時間的關係，我要求主計長，你必須要把你自行調整、刪減的部分一定要有份報告告訴我們，這是我們的天職，要來監督你調整的部分在什麼地方。"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初通案刪減939億，我們除了刪減304億之外，現在636億就是沒有辦法刪減，所以才會去刪減一般性補助款……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有辦法刪減的部分，你條列給我，我只能告訴你這636億，因為地方的需求要追加，我只是要奉勸主計長，心中要有主計，不能只有算計，這是非常非常重要的，最重要是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們從來沒有算計過，我們是依法行事。"],["柯委員志恩：你完全沒有依法行事，因為過去的整個條文……好，主計長你先暫時留著，是不是時間暫停？請中選會的李進勇委員。"],["主席：好，請中選會李主委，時間暫停，因為他要有時間走路。"],["柯委員志恩：也請主計長一起。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：這一次我們的公投加罷免共計花了15億4,324萬，其中大部分的錢都是由我們的第二預備金來支出，沒有錯吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：公投跟罷免都是申請第二預備金。"],["柯委員志恩：什麼時候通過的？什麼時候給你們預備金？"],["李主任委員進勇：都已經撥了。"],["柯委員志恩：8月15號，都已經撥，錢也用完了，那我請問這次的追加預算當中，為什麼中選會還是一模一樣編列15億4,324萬，錢不都用完了嗎？目前還剩下4個月的時間，你們追加這筆預算是要幹嘛？是告訴我們有7個委員沒有經過罷免，還要做這樣的事嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我跟委員報告，因為這一次申請動支二備金達到15億多，金額非常龐大。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，所以我只問你，你為什麼還要追加？錢都已經花了，為什麼中選會還要再編這筆預算，理由在哪裡？"],["李主任委員進勇：因為它對於行政院二備金的影響非常大，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：那是行政院的二備金，二備金本來就是做天災、人禍才用二備金，沒有錯嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：因為我們占的比例太大，占了20%。"],["柯委員志恩：還是一樣嘛！你告訴我……"],["李主任委員進勇：會影響到行政院二備金使用的空間。"],["柯委員志恩：行政院把你們中選會放在這個項目，本身就是有問題，因為中選會本身不需要額外經費來做，除非你剩下4個月的時間要做其他的事情。為什麼還要編這個15億？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果大院支持我們用追加的方式的話，我們會把這15億歸墊給行政院的二備金，來應付國家重要緊急事務之用。"],["柯委員志恩：歸墊給行政院二備金，這就是你們挪來挪去，違反紀律問題，挪過來、挪過去。","我只問主計長，下一次我們如果還有罷免、公投的話，你是放在什麼地方？是放在第二預備金，還是放在追加預算裡？主計長回答這個問題。"],["主席：好，最後一個問題，時間到了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果時間來得及，我們就辦追加；如果來不及，還是必須動第二預備金，要看時間的……我們第二預備金是專門做重要的……"],["柯委員志恩：這個東西挪過來、挪過去，乾坤大挪移，對我們來說，這就是財政紀律上需要被檢討的啦！"],["主席：謝謝，簡單來講，錢用完就用完了，不要再追加。","下一位請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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那今天我們現在發現了一個問題就是說我們本來認為說依法行政這是國家"},{"start":192.128,"end":204.343,"text":"尤其行政機關最該有的基本但是我們今天看到從剛剛的幾位委員的質詢我們發現一件事情三讀通過的法律在我國行政院可以帶頭不執行"},{"start":205.97,"end":222.875,"text":"我再講一次三讀通過的法律而且還沒有被大法官宣告違憲或視為暫時處分要求這個東西不可以做之前行政院可以違憲違法的不執行那請問一下監察院有沒有看到這個問題"},{"start":226.049,"end":245.198,"text":"這個部分可能還是要從那個確實的去認定那這樣還是等於沒有回答嘛那其實我剛一開始我就有講到說其實權力分立的概念現在現代化國家都有權力分立的概念不管是三權分立還是五權分立他就是怕國家走向專制跟集權嘛"},{"start":245.738,"end":274.155,"text":"所以他不希望由行政權把司法權或行政權把立法權都包括在裡面的這三權分立國家所有三權分立國家都這個概念但我們今天看到的是行政權好像直接把所有的權都包括在裡面的那今天行政權照理說他不能夠不執行立法院三讀通過的法案他是沒有權力選擇我愛做不做他只有義務去遵守已經通過的法律"},{"start":274.955,"end":299.689,"text":"但是呢今天行政院院長跟我國的總統直接出來告訴大家三讀通過的法律我也懶得管我等釋憲結果出來我再決定要不要做這不是就一個違法最基本違法的ABC就出來了嗎我想全國的法律學者不會有人認同總統跟行政院院長這句話那請問監察院哪裡去了"},{"start":300.919,"end":320.075,"text":"如果監察權覺得自己還是個監察院貴院總是來這邊跟我們說監察院有存在的必要但是當事情發生的時候卻監察院永遠看不到人這是我對於監察院一直以來無法理解的部分我再跟各位報告任何一個法律"},{"start":320.996,"end":345.373,"text":"任何一個法律當你被大法官宣告違憲之前它就是一個有效的法律在你被大法官要求你暫停使用之前你就必須要執行並沒有我提出申請或我提出釋憲我就可以不做行政院從來沒有這種權利各國也沒有這樣的制度這個制度會出現在哪裡就是專制國家"},{"start":346.835,"end":356.226,"text":"總統或行政院長一個人說了算的國家才會這樣所以今天行政院長以及我國總統完美詮釋了我們是一個專制國家"},{"start":357.836,"end":384.736,"text":"所以才會有法律三讀通過之後行政權可以說 我就不執行啊然後還有更荒謬的也是從官員口中講出來的說如果我這些錦銷的錢我編下去以後如果改天大法官宣告違憲那我怎麼辦 我怎麼追回來我不是違憲的這更胡說八道任何一個法律在被宣告違憲的那一天之前的任何作為都叫做合法行為"},{"start":385.456,"end":409.465,"text":"而是被宣告違憲那一天開始這條法律不能用這是所有法律人法律學者都知道的ABC結果今天在我國竟然被行政官員出來說我發了啊 大法官如果說我違憲怎麼辦沒有怎麼辦你就必須就是要依法行政我想我今天講這個東西完全是最基本大一法律學生都懂的東西 但在我國"},{"start":411.587,"end":427.577,"text":"總統行政院長可以出來帶頭騙全體國人這就是為什麼我一直覺得監察行政院的作為我們立法院本來應該要予以監督但是我們今天看到是立法委員爭相的護航"},{"start":428.772,"end":453.28,"text":"那這個叫做民主國家嗎不是吧 這個叫做專制國家民進黨在野的時候也是扮演好他監督的責任所以民進黨在野的時候他對國民黨執政的時候的多加批判那就是盡了他的所有的職務我們都非常的敬佩民進黨在野時候的作為但當民進黨執政的時候卻不允許在野黨去對他加以監督所以這個"},{"start":454.64,"end":474.902,"text":"越走越回去了把台灣走回專制的時代這我沒有辦法接受所以我在這邊跟各位說不管剛羅志強委員講或是剛黃國昌委員他們所提到的警消人員加薪的部分我再說一次三讀通過的法律在被大法官宣告違憲之前它就是一個有效的法律"},{"start":476.112,"end":494.065,"text":"不管行政院有沒有提出釋憲有沒有提出暫時處分的申請只要法官還沒有下裁定或判決之前你就必須要履行那在這個地方的履行跟執行是什麼就是編列預算在這個地方就是編列預算好 第二個"},{"start":495.92,"end":517.454,"text":"絕對不存在這些官員所說的如果我發了改天大法官宣告違憲之後那這些錢怎麼辦也沒有那種事因為我國的制度以及全世界的制度都一樣只要他被宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法作為不存在要不要追回的問題要不要把錢追回的問題也不存在之前發的錢是違憲的問題"},{"start":519.395,"end":544.184,"text":"所以我國有非常多的法律曾經被宣告違憲但是它在違憲之前的法官所有依法的判決都不會發生冤獄賠償等等的事由存在這個是法律ABC請這些政客們 請這些行政院的高官們不要出來騙全體國人不要總是把法律ABC 我跟你講這國家唸法律的人很多啦然後各大學法律通識課程也有"},{"start":545.325,"end":569.281,"text":"如果你們以為騙國人騙一騙國人就會被騙你這次就不會罷免搞得這麼難看你就不會我今天早上看到今天早上的那個民調總統的滿意度還有集團院長滿意度已經低到我覺得不可思議的程度了國人沒有那麼好騙啦我覺得該做的是我們必須依法的行政我在講剛剛我提到"},{"start":571.383,"end":586.397,"text":"剛我提到那個 剛一開始我發現說我提到孟德斯鳩其實孟德斯鳩還有一句話很重要他說真正的自由是法律底下的自由也就是我們人在爭取自由的時候我們只能爭取法律之下的自由而不是超越法律的自由"},{"start":587.615,"end":616.798,"text":"這西方三權分立之父孟德斯有所說的話這在我國也是適用啊怎麼會現在從行政院長總統帶頭在那邊造謠騙人 說謊 毀憲亂政我每一個都可以講出條文以及依據但是這些政客們 這些高官們永遠講不出依據 只在那邊胡說八道那個喔 我想喔 憲判九號喔如果你們去看一下內容也是打臉了這次的卓院長 他其實有提到"},{"start":618.686,"end":644.945,"text":"行政院在立法院 憲法上所應負的政治責任其實最終是對民意負責 憲判久有講到最近台大那個教授原決案也有提到 就是說卓榮泰如果不下台 其實他首先被打臉的是憲法法庭我覺得我這只是引述他們的話 我想要跟各位報告我覺得這段時間國家整個荒謬 還有整個國家行政機關為了搞他那個所謂的大罷免"},{"start":646.618,"end":674.468,"text":"部會首長 院長 總統出來不停地造謠講那什麼團結思想裡面錯誤擺出的造謠不要說我亂講每一個東西我都可以把它點出來這是我的個性 我也都把它點出來它依據是什麼 為什麼是說謊我一個一個都點出來所以我還是覺得各位 監察院這邊請注意一下 請監察院注意既然我們的行政院院長"},{"start":676.189,"end":678.5,"text":"他都带头在那边违法"},{"start":679.687,"end":706.601,"text":"那是不是你應該要思考一下監察院要不要有所動作我不是要你們一定要辦到一定要懲戒行政院長而是你們總是要進行調查也許調查之後發現國人是對院長誤會了那你們還他一個清白也是好事我也樂見但是應該還是要有所動作就我講的行政院依法行政是你的義務不是你的權利當今天立法院三讀通過的法律"},{"start":707.341,"end":733.764,"text":"竟然行政院可以說我要事先終我申請暫時處分所以我不用執行我國以及全世界都沒有這樣的制度如果有請拿出來打臉我我最喜歡講這句話我如果有這樣的制度請拿出來打臉我否則請依法行政如果連這樣子都不懂的話我們怎麼會是法治國怎麼會是一個法律底下的自由好 那個再麻煩監察院這邊好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時55分）麻煩銓敘部次長，還有副人事長先上臺，待會兒也會請教秘書長，但秘書長先等一下。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：各位早安，辛苦了。我想先請教次長，懷次長，你是基層公務員出身的嗎？"],["懷次長敍：是的，從委任公務員開始做起。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我有聽您講過。我想請問一下，您有當過常任文官，也有擔任過政務官，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我請問一下，依照現在的公務員服務法，政務人員到底須不須依法行政？"],["懷次長敍：要。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想依法行政是公務員的基本要求，所以才會寫在公務員服務法的第一條。我請問一下依法行政的這個法，指的是不是立法院通過、總統公布的法律，公務員就有遵守的義務？"],["懷次長敍：是，就是他執行業務的時候，假設有些作用法規或在法體系裡面內部的行政規則、行政命令等等，如果有明文規定，他就應該要照規定來執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：好、好。今天監察院有派人來嗎？我請問一下，但是我不知道這個部分跟你的業務有沒有關係，我想請問監察院，政務官一樣受公務員懲戒法的規範，對不對？"],["黃處長奕元：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果政務人員不依法行政，發生公務員懲戒法第二條情事的時候，是不是照樣要送懲戒？"],["黃處長奕元：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請問一下，依據公務員懲戒法第二十四條，如果是院長、部長發現公務員有第二條所訂情事的時候，這時候應由他的機關具備文件、敘明事由，然後連同證據送請監察院審查。如果今天犯錯的是院長或部長的話，要誰送？"],["黃處長奕元：這個部分，如果在本院的話，我們有紀律委員會，所以紀律委員會就會去審查。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道監察委員是紀律委員會，沒有錯。我現在請教是說，因為懲罪法第二十四條是說院長、部長發現所屬公務員有這些問題的時候要送，我想請教一下，如果今天違法的是院長或部長的話，應該是誰送？還是自己送自己？好，沒關係，這是不是沒辦法回答？"],["黃處長奕元：這個可能要請懲戒法的主管機關……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，今天沒有辦法回答，這樣我瞭解了。現在發現了一個問題，我們本來認為依法行政是國家，最該有的基本，尤其是行政機關，但是今天從剛剛看到幾位委員的質詢，發現一件事情，在我國三讀通過的法律，行政院可以帶頭不執行。我再講一次，三讀通過的法律，而且還沒有被大法官宣告違憲，或視為暫時處分要求這個東西不可以做之前，行政院可以違憲、違法的不執行。請問一下，監察院有沒有看到這個問題？"],["黃處長奕元：這個部分可能還是要確實的去認定，到底是不是有這樣子的狀況……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這樣等於還是沒有回答。其實我剛剛一開始就有講到，現在現代化國家都有權力分立的概念，不管是三權分立還是五權分立，就是怕國家走向專制跟集權，所以不希望由行政權把司法權，或行政權把立法權都包括在裡面了，所有三權分立國家都有這個概念。我們今天看到的是行政權好像直接把所有權都包括在裡面了，照理說，行政權不能夠不執行立法院三讀通過的法案，他沒有權力選擇他愛做不做，他只有義務去遵守已經通過的法律，但是今天行政院院長跟我國的總統直接出來告訴大家，三讀通過的法律，我也懶得管！我等釋憲結果出來，我再決定要不要做！這不就是一個最基本違法的ABC就出來了嗎？我想全國的法律學者不會有人認同總統跟行政院長這句話，請問監察院哪裡去了？如果監察權覺得自己還是監察院，貴院總是來這邊跟我們說監察院有存在的必要，但是當事情發生的時候，監察院卻永遠看不到人，這是我對於監察院一直以來無法理解的部分。","我再跟各位報告，任何一個法律在被大法官宣告違憲之前，它就是一個有效的法律，在被大法官要求暫停使用之前就必須要執行，並沒有提出聲請或提出釋憲就可以不做的，行政院從來沒有這種權力！各國也沒有這樣的制度！這制度會出現在哪裡？就是專制國家，總統或行政院院長一個人說了算的國家才會這樣。今天行政院長及我國總統完美詮釋了我們是一個專制國家，才會有法律三讀通過之後，行政權可以說不執行的，然後還有更荒謬的，也是從官員口中講出來的，說如果這些警消的錢編下去以後，改天大法官宣告違憲，那我怎麼辦？我怎麼追回來？我不就違憲了？這更胡說八道！任何一個法律在被宣告違憲的那一天之前，任何作為都叫做合法行為，只有從被宣告違憲那一天開始，這條法律不能用。這是所有法律人、法律學者都知道的ABC，結果今天在我國，竟然有行政官員出來說，如果我發了，大法官說我違憲怎麼辦？沒有怎麼辦，你就必須要依法行政。我想我今天講這個東西完全是大一法律系學生最基本都懂的東西，但在我國，總統、行政院院長可以帶頭出來騙全體國人，這就是為什麼我一直覺得行政院的作為，立法院本來應該要予以監督的原因，但是我們今天看到立法委員爭相護航，這個叫做民主國家嗎？不是吧？這個叫做專制國家耶。民進黨在野的時候也是扮演好監督的角色，民進黨在野的時候對於國民黨執政的多加批判，就是盡了他的所有責任，我們都非常的敬佩民進黨在野時候的作為，但當民進黨執政的時候，卻不允許在野黨對他加以監督，越走越回去了，把臺灣帶回專制的時代，這我沒有辦法接受。我在這邊跟各位說，不管剛剛羅智強委員或黃國昌委員所提到的警消人員加薪，我再說一次，三讀通過的法律在被大法官宣告違憲之前，它就是一個有效的法律，不管行政院有沒有提出釋憲、有沒有提出暫時處分的聲請，只要法官還沒有下裁定或判決之前，你就必須要履行，那在這個地方的履行跟執行是什麼？就是編列預算！第二個，絕對不存在這些官員所說的，如果發了，改天大法官宣告違憲之後，這些錢怎麼辦？也沒有那種事，因為我國的制度及全世界的制度都一樣，在法律被宣告違憲之前的所有作為都是合法作為，不存在要不要把錢追回的問題，也不存在之前發錢是違憲的問題。我國有非常多的法律曾經被宣告違憲，但是它在違憲之前，法官所有依法的判決都不會存在冤獄賠償等等的事由，這個是法律ABC，請這些政客們！請這些行政院的高官們！不要出來騙全體國人。我跟你講，這個國家念法律的人很多，各大學法律通識課程也有，如果你們以為騙一騙國人，國人就會被騙，這次罷免就不會搞得這麼難看。我看到今天早上的民調，總統的滿意度還有行政院院長的滿意度已經低到我覺得不可思議的程度了，國人沒有那麼好騙，我覺得該做的事，我們必須依法來行政。","剛剛一開始我發言的時候提到孟德斯鳩，其實孟德斯鳩還有一句話很重要，他說真正的自由是法律底下的自由，也就是人在爭取自由的時候，我們只能爭取法律之下的自由，而不是超越法律的自由，這是西方三權分立之父孟德斯鳩所說的話，這在我國也適用，怎麼會現在從行政院院長、總統帶頭在那邊造謠、騙人、說謊、毀憲亂政？每一個我都可以講出條文及依據，但是這些政客們、這些高官們永遠講不出依據，只在那邊胡說八道！我想憲判9號，如果你們去看一下內容，也是打臉了這次的卓院長，該判決提到行政院跟立法院根據憲法所應負的政治責任，其實最終是對民意負責；最近臺大教授顏厥安也提到，卓榮泰如果不下臺，首先被打臉的是憲法法庭。我只是引述他們的話，我想要跟各位報告，我覺得這段時間國家整個荒謬，整個國家行政機關為了搞所謂的大罷免，部會首長、院長、總統出來不停的造謠，那個什麼「團結十講」裡面錯誤百出的造謠。不要說我亂講，每一個東西我都可以把它點出來，這是我的個性，我也都把它點出來，它的依據是什麼、為什麼是說謊，我一個一個都點出來。","我還是請監察院注意，既然行政院院長都帶頭在那邊違法，那監察院是不是應該思考一下要不要有所動作？我不是要你們一定要辦倒、一定要懲戒行政院長，而是你們總是要進行調查，也許調查之後發現國人是誤會院長了，那你們還他一個清白，也是好事啊！我也樂見，但是還是應該要有所動作。就我講的行政院依法行政是義務，不是權利，今天立法院三讀通過的法律，行政院竟然可以說他要釋憲，聲請暫時處分，所以不用執行，我國及全世界都沒有這樣的制度，如果有請拿出來打臉我。我最喜歡講這句話，如果有這樣的制度，請拿出來打臉我，否則請依法行政。如果連這樣子都不懂的話，我們怎麼會是法治國？怎麼會有法律底下的自由？再麻煩監察院，謝謝。"],["黃處長奕元：是。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d745e0e5727c2fb17edd1055ccb7a5c893e982cf155f147233f3e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:59:25 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我先走次長我剛聽你講話拳頭都硬起來了我本來真的對考試院很尊敬的"},{"start":28.221,"end":48.98,"text":"請問考試院是不是今天權虛部是不是僅消我們的公交人員最大的靠山是不是是不是你告訴我我們是依法行政一定會照規定來處理是不是嘛你連你要當僅消軍人公交人員的靠山最大都講不出口我為什麼今天很生氣"},{"start":51.133,"end":73.862,"text":"站在這個地方 我跟吳宗憲委員 汪小林委員 跟黃國昌委員我們一路挺警囂 挺軍人 我們挺了一整年終於通過警囂的人事條例 提高退休保障我們提高了軍人的待遇 羅志祥挺警囂 挺軍人"},{"start":75.693,"end":93.958,"text":"結果 民進黨 卓鴻泰 賴清德 蔡錦霄 蔡軍人竟然不編預算 你在這邊還護航你考試院不講話 我沒有意見啦 我知道你為難啦為什麼今天很火大 是因為你考試院竟然在這邊護航你還當什麼次長啊我告訴你啦 你不用講話 我跟你講 先聽我講完再講"},{"start":104.69,"end":132.361,"text":"你就是好好守住你的本分今天 今天公祭 明天旺祭那民進黨就這樣啊有錦霄今天為了捍衛國人生命產產安全犧牲生命的時候哇 賴清德 卓榮泰哀悼啊 哀傷啊公祭哀悼 哀傷啊隔天啊隔天就踩你 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站在我們的警消跟公教我們的公務人員的身旁當他們的後盾我沒有要你講出 忤逆我們今上賴清德的話但你起碼要有些微的部長 次長的風骨 道德勇氣去捍衛警消 捍衛軍人我今天沒有看到這個風骨"},{"start":344.431,"end":373.401,"text":"那第二個你要謹守今天對行政中立的永遠的堅正的支持今天我也沒看到那我要告訴你你今天最該學習的官員是誰你知道是誰嗎我告訴你你最該學習的官員叫邱太元我今天對邱太元是非常肯定為什麼我講一件事情整個民進黨部會都在造謠"},{"start":377.48,"end":393.063,"text":"當時劉世芳帶頭造謠在野黨刪租屋津貼我們中線召委中線主席已經怒到去告了有這件事嗎請問你不知道啦對不對來來來內政部的代表上來時間暫停內政部代表上來來在野黨有刪租屋津貼嗎有沒有"},{"start":406.687,"end":431.94,"text":"有沒有報告委員因為這個跟受派來進入貴人會我告訴你部長都已經承認說錯話了但是沒有用啦造謠的那個威力全部下去了造謠威力全部下去了就是這種造謠官員來 市長行政中立嗎造謠是行政中立嗎"},{"start":434.062,"end":463.305,"text":"行政中立法上面對這個部分喔有啦 大法官都告訴你這也答不出來 憲法常識大法官跟你講說謊 官員說謊 天經地義啊官員說謊不用負責啊你全序不次長都不知道大法官的憲法判決大法官跟你講官員說謊沒事嘛當然就說謊啊我拉回來我拉回來 我問你啊你知道為什麼我推崇邱太元嗎"},{"start":466.004,"end":494.44,"text":"因為當時我在被罷免的時候突然一堆罷團說在發文宣在網路上羅志強三長照預算這種不尊重長輩的人罷免他還罵我爸媽還在網路上罵我攻擊我父母親我怒到不行我來質詢邱太元的時候我問部長"},{"start":496.095,"end":520.475,"text":"我說請問啊 邱部長衛福部的預算 今年比去年多多少部長跟我講 多306億喔 他數字超級清楚的那我就問他說 長照預算我們有3嗎部長直接跟你講 跟我講 沒有3比去年更多學學邱太元啊"},{"start":523.564,"end":550.152,"text":"最行政中立的官員就下台了 他不要學啦真的 也對 也不能學 學完就下台了只有他齁 沒有造謠甚至直面出來 駁斥謠言這就是官員的風骨啊條條狀狀都跟行政中立有關啊我再問你喔 來 中選會上來"},{"start":552.335,"end":581.326,"text":"中選會麻煩一下 謝謝中選會這個單位有多少年歷史應該有二十幾年你不知道 其實我也不是很確定那多少任主委主委 歷任主委 抱歉你也不知道 沒關係那有一樣你一定知道"},{"start":582.441,"end":607.412,"text":"中選會這漫長的歷史跟這麼多的主委當中哪一個主委跟你講說在選舉罷免期間喊告急搶救是違反選罷法的哪一位主委說的報告委因為我是你不要當我告訴你你做中選會的不管你是哪個部門的人員我知道不為難你就是李靖勇講的請問你嘛"},{"start":611.908,"end":630.256,"text":"選舉罷免期間只要不是投票日當天喊告急喊搶救請問違反什麼選罷法這部分我是方便請我們就是相關業務單位的代表我告訴你沒有啦就這麼簡單啦來我再請教一下來勞動部勞動部"},{"start":642.864,"end":654.787,"text":"哪一位偉大的部長 上班時間發文挺罷免你也不知道 不方便回答你是不方便回答 不是不知道你當然知道 不為難你就是洪森漢好中立的行政我就要回頭問我們的次長問我們次長我要告訴你 今天為什麼要立法修法"},{"start":673.598,"end":700.448,"text":"因為就是太扯太離譜啦最後還是一句話我希望你牢牢記在心上你的這一條命是誰在保障你知道嗎我們在座所有人的命誰在保障你知道嗎誰在保障你告訴我全國人民一起啊誰在守在治安的前線火災的前線保護可能我們的生命安全誰是誰"},{"start":702.398,"end":711.247,"text":"就警察跟消防 答對了誰看守我們的國家國土防衛阻止外敵侵犯保家衛民是誰 國軍 國軍啊"},{"start":714.502,"end":728.505,"text":"你想清楚我們的命就是錦囂跟國軍在保的你再想清楚你要不要再幫今天採錦囂採軍人的總統背書啦想清楚啦 謝謝你我剛剛已經跟委員報告過我們在執行這個35條我們是繼續在執行 該做的我們都會做來來來 沒關係行政院不編預算你給我一個回答不編預算請問怎麼做啊"},{"start":743.772,"end":764.891,"text":"你看嘛 你還要解釋 多給你十秒鐘 只讓你自己打臉自己而已啊你剛剛在黃國昌回答 就讓我底下坐 其實拳頭都硬了因為我真的沒有想到你要這樣回答啦你可以今天甚至啊 你就說抱歉我不敢回答 我都原諒你剛剛後面都不敢回答 我有為難他們嗎我沒有啊 起碼他們沒護航啊"},{"start":766.312,"end":775.756,"text":"你今天 站在這個地方 你作為今天公務人員 最重要靠山給你時間回應 你還是就自我打臉啊救救你啦 可以了啦 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":294,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時41分）有請銓敘部懷次長。"],["主席：麻煩懷次長。"],["羅委員智強：因為建忻兄……我想還是先請次長好了。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：次長，我剛聽你講話，拳頭都硬起來了啦！我本來真的對考試院很尊敬的。請問今天考試院、銓敘部是不是警消、公教人員最大的靠山，是不是？你告訴我。"],["懷次長敍：我們是依法行政，一定會照規定來處理。"],["羅委員智強：是不是嘛？連你要當警消、軍人、公教人員的靠山，這句話都講不出口，我為什麼今天很生氣？站在這個地方，我跟吳宗憲委員、翁曉玲委員跟黃國昌委員，一路挺警消、挺軍人，挺了一整年終於通過警消的人事條例、提高退休警消的退休保障、提高軍人的待遇。羅智強挺警消、挺軍人，結果民進黨卓榮泰、賴清德踩警消、踩軍人，竟然不編預算，你還在這邊護航，考試院不講話我沒有意見啦！我知道你為難。我為什麼今天很火大？是因為你考試院竟然在這邊護航，你還當什麼次長啊！"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，我們沒有護航，我剛剛只是說明……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，你不用講話，先聽我講完再講。你就是好好守住你的本分。今天公祭，明天忘記，民進黨就這樣啊！有警消今天為了捍衛國人生命、財產安全、犧牲生命的時候，賴清德、卓榮泰去公祭哀悼、哀傷啊！隔天就砍你預算，請問警消到底得罪賴清德什麼，需要這樣對待警消嗎？你不要怪我生氣，我跟你講，為自己的事我沒那麼生氣，今天我生氣的是賴清德跟卓榮泰踩警消、踩軍人，我告訴你那是賴清德自己政治要負責啦！我也在這邊呼籲所有警消跟軍人袍澤們，你看看今天一路上羅智強、國民黨，我們是怎麼挺警消、挺軍人的？我們浴血奮戰了一整年終於爭取到待遇的提高、合理的提高，賴清德跟你說：抱歉，你們不值得啊！坐在底下的王義川有辦法抗議我們的主席，但是他跟所有民進黨的立委一路投反對票到底，陪著賴清德一起踩警消、踩軍人，也有你王義川一份啦！所以我要跟你講，我在底下為什麼那麼生氣？我聽到受不了啦！","現在問你第二個問題，我想請教，你總知道中華民國有哪5個民選總統吧？"],["懷次長敍：知道。"],["羅委員智強：告訴大家。"],["懷次長敍：李登輝總統、陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統、賴清德總統。"],["羅委員智強：我請問這5位總統，哪一位總統最優秀？在他上任第一年發動全國性大罷免，來清算、追殺、殲滅在野黨。"],["懷次長敍：這跟我們部裡面的業務無關。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我現在要講的後面就有關係了，就是賴清德。為了貫徹大罷免，各種行政不中立的鬼故事全部出籠。我再請問你今天有哪一任總統的行政團隊，為了罷免下鄉宣講，直接痛批在野黨說這叫輪迴、在野黨撒野，跟著罷團一起搞罷免，是哪一位偉大的行政院院長做到了這舉世無雙的成就？你告訴我跟你的業務無關。跟你的業務有關！這行政不中立就是卓榮泰，你還跟我講無關？就是卓榮泰。","我要跟你講，懷次長，今天我對你很失望！你身為銓敘部的官員，腦袋當中有兩件事做到，你就100分。第一個，站在警消跟公務人員的身旁、當他們的後盾，我沒有要你講出忤逆、清算賴清德的話，但你起碼要有些微次長的風骨、道德、勇氣去捍衛警消、捍衛軍人，我今天沒有看到這個風骨。第二個，你要謹守對行政中立永遠堅貞的支持，今天我也沒看到。那我要告訴你，你今天最該學習的官員是誰，你知道是誰嗎？我告訴你，你最該學習的官員叫邱泰源，我今天對邱泰源是非常肯定，為什麼？我講一件事情，當時整個民進黨的部會都在造謠，劉世芳帶頭造謠在野黨刪租屋津貼，今天宗憲召委、宗憲主席已經怒到去告了，請問有這件事嗎？你不知道，對不對？","內政部的代表上來，時間暫停。在野黨有刪租屋津貼嗎？有沒有？"],["簡專門委員鈺珒：報告委員，因為這個跟受派來貴委員會列席的質詢事項不同，不好意思。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，部長都已經承認說錯話了，但是沒有用啦！造謠威力全部下去了，就是這種造謠官員。次長，造謠是行政中立嗎？"],["懷次長敍：行政中立法上面對這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：有啦！大法官都告訴你，這也答不出來，憲法常識，大法官跟你講官員說謊，天經地義，官員說謊不用負責啊！你是銓敘部次長都不知道大法官的憲法判決，大法官就跟你講官員說謊沒事嘛！當然就說謊啊！我拉回來問你，你知道為什麼我推崇邱泰源嗎？因為當時我在被罷免的時候，突然一堆罷團在發文宣、在網路上說羅智強刪長照預算，要罷免這種不尊重長輩的人，還罵我爸媽耶！還在網路上罵我、攻擊我父母親，我怒到不行。我來質詢邱泰源的時候，我問部長，我說：請問邱部長，衛福部的預算今年比去年多多少？部長跟我講多306億，他超級清楚數字的，我就問他：長照預算我們有刪嗎？部長直接跟我講：沒有刪，比去年更多！學學邱泰源啦！最行政中立的官員就要下臺了，真的不要學、也不能學，學完就下臺了。只有他沒有造謠，甚至直面出來駁斥謠言，這就是官員的風骨啊！條條樁樁都跟行政中立有關啊！","我再問，來，中選會上來，中選會麻煩一下，謝謝。中選會這個單位有多少年歷史？"],["江主任美芳：應該有二十幾年。"],["羅委員智強：你不知道，其實我也不是很確定，有多少任主委？"],["江主任美芳：歷任主委，抱歉，這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：你也不知道，沒關係，有一樣你一定知道，中選會這漫長的歷史跟這麼多的主委當中，哪一個主委跟你講，在選舉罷免期間喊告急、搶救是違反選罷法的，哪一位主委說的？"],["江主任美芳：報告委員，因為我是……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，不管你是中選會哪個部門的人員，我不為難你，這就是李進勇講的。請問你，選舉罷免期間，只要不是投票日當天喊告急、喊搶救，請問違反什麼選罷法？"],["江主任美芳：這部分是不是方便我請相關業務單位的代表……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，沒有啦！就這麼簡單啦！","來，我再請教一下勞動部，哪一位偉大的部長上班時間發文挺罷免？你也不知道？不方便回答？"],["葉副組長錦堂：報告委員，對，是的。"],["羅委員智強：你是不方便回答，而不是不知道，你當然知道，不為難你，就是洪申翰啊！好中立的行政啊！我就要回頭問次長，我要告訴你今天為什麼要立法、修法，因為就是太扯、太離譜了。最後還是一句話，我希望你牢牢記在心上，你的這一條命是誰在保障，你知道嗎？我們在座所有人的命是誰在保障，你知道嗎？誰在保障，你告訴我？"],["懷次長敍：全國人民一起啊！"],["羅委員智強：全國人民一起？誰守在治安的前線、火災的前線、保護我們的生命安全？是誰？"],["懷次長敍：就警察跟消防。"],["羅委員智強：答對了！誰捍守我們國家、國土，防衛、阻止外敵侵犯、保家衛民的是誰？"],["懷次長敍：國軍。"],["羅委員智強：你想清楚我們的命就是警消跟國軍在保的，你再想清楚，你要不要再幫今天踩警消、踩軍人的總統背書？想清楚，謝謝你。"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，給我10秒鐘就好，我剛剛已經跟委員報告過，第三十五條我們是繼續在執行，該做的我們都會做，沒有說沒有做。"],["羅委員智強：來、來，沒關係，行政院不編預算，你給我一個回答。不編預算，請問怎麼做？"],["懷次長敍：我們做我們部裡面該做的事……"],["羅委員智強：你看你還要解釋，多給你10秒鐘，只是讓你自己打臉自己而已。你剛剛回答黃國昌就讓我坐在底下拳頭都硬了，因為我真的沒有想到你會這樣回答啦！你甚至今天可以說：抱歉，我不敢回答。我都原諒你，剛剛後面的人都不敢回答，我有為難他們嗎？我沒有，起碼他們沒護航啊！你今天站在這個地方，作為公務人員最重要的靠山，我給你時間回應，你還是自我打臉啊！"],["懷次長敍：但是我跟委員……"],["羅委員智強：救救你啦！可以了啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來先請翁曉玲委員代理主席。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：有請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d7416dcaefc52095fb6d1055ccb7a5c893e982cf155f147233f73d84130179852065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:54:34 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部長簡單讓你補充一下謝謝委員一直在關心這個永續提升人行您講的都是重點那我稍微再做一下很簡單的回覆也就是說行政院已經完成799處行人義照式入口但是有一部分就是到8月底的時候我們核定643件有關於永續人行行道的部分目前"},{"start":285.616,"end":301.032,"text":"雖然核定的中央經費是高達一百一十五億但是目前只有完成三十五案那您講到中央跟地方或者是說包括公務、教育、交通以及地方政府的部分好那我再用書面跟委員來作下回答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":252,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時49分）謝謝，請內政部。"],["主席：請內政部劉部長。"],["李委員昆澤：劉部長，慢慢走沒關係。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好。內政部2024到2027年有個「永續提升人行安全計畫」，包括六大工程的推動方案，本來的經費大概是48億啦，本次也追加大概1,000萬左右，做為計畫修正、工程相關的督導考核以及材料試驗等的經費來源。對於整個計畫推動的過程，部長，我們還是有幾個地方要來做檢討。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員昆澤：例如中央與地方的權責問題，我們看到的補助進度，其實我認為是落後了，各縣市政府核准件數的落差蠻大的，第三次的補助計畫核定了172案，大概經費是31億，但是各縣市政府核准的件數標準是有點差距。另外，地方的提案跟中央要求的標準是有差距的，導致這些地方縣市政府核准的件數跟通過要推動的時程都有嚴重的落後。另外，各縣市地方政府的協調其實也有很大的問題，這幾乎是一個結構性的問題，地方政府自己的協調性有問題的時候，再去推動計畫當然就會有差距。另外，他們所提出的這些提案除了標準跟中央要求的不一致之外，我們中央政府自己的協調，包含經濟部、交通部、內政部，其實協調還是都有一定的停滯，必須要檢討，這些部分我想部長也清楚，這是我們在推動永續提升人行安全計畫時必須去注意的。","因為時間的關係，本席簡單提一下目前我們人行道普及率的現況，全國的普及率大概是47.5%，其實全國有超過一半以上縣市的人行道普及率是遠低於45%。另外，區域的落差也很大，新竹有82.6%，但是金門只有9.8%，而都市的舊區空間不足，其實難以設置人行道，這也是一個問題。偏鄉地區因為低人口密度，人行道的改善也並不是地方政府列為優先推動的項目。另外，國土規劃跟道路的思維仍是偏重車輛優先的狀況，人行道覆蓋不足、設計不友善，對車輛的高容納設計也容易導致超速的風險。部長，我們的設計應該還是要保障人行安全，跨部門協調的部分，我認為必須要強化中央各部會以及中央跟地方政府的協調。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，我們要從使用面的需求去切入，並不是一直要去做車道拓寬或是傳統號誌的設置而已，更重要的是要以數據事故分析為核心來驅動改變。","部長，簡單讓你補充一下。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員一直在關心永續提升人行安全，您講的都是重點，我稍微再做一下很簡單的回復，也就是說……"],["主席：請簡短，因為時間到了。"],["劉部長世芳：行政院已經完成799處行人易肇事路口的改善，但是有一部分，就是到8月底的時候，我們核定643件有關於永續人行的行道部分，雖然核定的中央經費是高達115億，但是目前只有完成35案，您講到中央跟地方，或者是包括工務、教育、交通以及地方政府……"],["主席：謝謝，私底下再報告啦，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，那我用書面來向委員做回答。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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在開始進行詢問以前我大概有個會議程序上面的事項可能也是詢問 可能也是建議因為剛剛聽到考試院的秘書長報告說這個法律案其實考試院那邊本來有準備早就要送來審議了"},{"start":32.95,"end":59.879,"text":"結果行政院有意見搶著行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關那如果行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關顯然行政院對這個法有非常強烈的意見有非常強烈的意見那既然行政院搶著要當主管機關攸關本法的行政機關到底應該是由考試院還是行政院我建議"},{"start":61.317,"end":82.002,"text":"接下來處理法案的時候請行政院派有代表權的人來因為行政院搶著要當主管機關嘛那你行政院就要來這邊把你的立場講清楚嘛因為行政院搶著當主管機關認為針對有關於政務人員行為基準法他們應該有發言的權利"},{"start":87.915,"end":115.833,"text":"那似乎看起來也沒有排斥這個法有立法的必要那但是我們看到過去行政院特別是行政院的政務官從閣員到次長剛剛我聽秘書長講啊還有考試院的書面報告說公務員服務法裡面有一些規範政務人員他們也有遵守"},{"start":116.758,"end":142.776,"text":"譬如說其中服務法鎖定應該謹慎發言那我就看不懂啦如果這個法對政務人員有適用的話那過去這段時間我們行政院的這些閣員有謹慎發言嗎可以指責在野黨的立委說你吃台灣米做中國鬼嗎可以在臉書上面說"},{"start":144.739,"end":165.787,"text":"726大罷免沒有成功要繼續剿匪嗎這是哪門子謹慎發言這種問題可能要考試院回答他們也很尷尬不敢得罪當道等一下我如果上來是問這種問題只是讓考試院尷尬不敢得罪當道有辦法回答這種問題的恐怕"},{"start":168.137,"end":187.403,"text":"可能要請現在賴著不下台的左榮瀚行政院派一個有代表權的來要不然這個法案要怎麼審光主管機關就炒不完了這個是我在針對這個法案要進行實質審查以前給召委的一個建議如果今天要進行實質逐條的審查我也支持"},{"start":188.722,"end":212.862,"text":"看等一下是不是請議事人員 等一下法案進行主條的時候 請卓榮泰趕快派一個代表來好 謝謝主席那個 跟黃委員報告 就有關這個部分就之前也有思考過 那我也了解說 考試院希望這個行政院出來 希望當作這個主管機關但是我自己思考過幾個問題啦我還是相信我國有權利分立啦 雖然"},{"start":213.903,"end":242.09,"text":"雖然現在事務上似乎看起來我國權力分立這是一個幌子完全違反孟德斯鳩的概念當行政權跟立法權以及那個考試權行政權跟立法權以及司法權結合的時候他帶來的就是專制這孟德斯鳩講的那專制的原理是什麼就是恐怖其實台灣就是走向這樣但是我還是相信可能我們還是有權力分立那依照現在的制度上面我們公務員"},{"start":243.902,"end":264.054,"text":"不是我再回答問題王委員我再回答我剛有說我跟黃委員報告他剛剛我跟你講你還沒進來之前他已經說他是會議詢問所以我現在再跟他回答王委員請不要干擾議事謝謝我也很尊重你的我很尊重王委員的王委員我很尊重你的"},{"start":265.677,"end":284.709,"text":"我再回答他問題我我回答他問題要經過你同意嗎王委員請問一下我回答其他委員的問題需要王委員你這位大人同意嗎我跟你講如果你不你要不要"},{"start":286.957,"end":314.074,"text":"我跟你講 王委員 王委員如果你要這樣子要要求我們開會每一個時間到都停請你問問你們的陳培宇 你們吳思瑤我是不是都讓大家把他講完我是不是都讓大家盡量講完王一川你幹了沒有 尊重主席王一川請你尊重主席王委員 如果你不懂議事規則請回去把議事規則搞清楚"},{"start":318.188,"end":342.321,"text":"王逸川 你去約束你們民進黨的人也要預時好不好你要不要去看看你們貴黨的陳培委員 吳孝偉 我有沒有干擾他們我都讓他們把話講完我跟你講 各個委員會有各個委員會做法我跟你講啦 你去當民進黨的召委 你來主持會議啦你下個會請就當召委嘛 好不好"},{"start":343.479,"end":352.684,"text":"我跟你講啦在這邊跟你吵架是拉低我們自己的格調不用在國會吵架給全國人民看這是拉低我們的格調但是我跟你說"},{"start":354.369,"end":383.733,"text":"黃委員今天黃委員在議事詢問的話我就會回答他的問題如果你等一下有問題要問我請你到台上來你到台上來之後我也會回答你的問題其他我跟你講不用多說了你在講什麼我覺得今天會議是我主持如果你對議事的主持這麼有興趣麻煩你下一任當召委你來制止我們講話我OK我沒有意見嘛那今天在這邊麻煩各委員會有各委員會的做法"},{"start":384.193,"end":399.638,"text":"你去看從這一屆第十一屆第一個會期到現在我主持了三個會期我是不是都盡量讓大家講完雖然我們講八分鐘這個是訓示規定每個委員會有不同的文化有的文化"},{"start":400.638,"end":423.973,"text":"8分鐘一到立刻關掉麥克風但是本委員會包括莊瑞雄委員在主持他都是盡量讓大家講完除非時間真的太長了我們才會制止你可以過去看過去的VOD是不是都是這樣我不會騙你這個部分我不會說面對黃國昌讓他講個高興面對陳佩瑜就不讓他講你可以去看看過去我主持會議是不是都是公平這樣"},{"start":425.253,"end":444.271,"text":"如果等一下你對於會議有什麼問題歡迎你到前面來 我們來問基本上 王委員我對你是很尊重啦一直以來我對你都很尊重我們不要在這邊吵架給全國人民看我覺得這真的不好這真的降低我們國會議員彼此的格調好不好不好意思 王委員就這樣好 那"},{"start":445.576,"end":457.487,"text":"我要回答你的問題你剛說要請行政院來那為什麼我今天這個沒有請行政院來雖然說行政院有說他要當主管機關因為過往我們看到的"},{"start":458.439,"end":477.335,"text":"不管是公務員服務法或者是一些懲戒事項或公務員的中立法等等的他的主管機關是考試院不是行政院所以我才會認為說這個體力上面的一貫應該還是由考試院來所以這就是為什麼我今天沒有請行政院來的主要原因"},{"start":478.015,"end":502.214,"text":"那如果當然我們在法條在那個審查的時候如果行政院要求他們要擔任主管機關的話那當然未來的審查我們可能會請行政院過來那第二個是如果今天由行政院他自己來去做這個主管機關的話我會擔心有球員兼裁判所以我剛才會提到"},{"start":503.527,"end":526.112,"text":"我還是相信權力分立這句話所以各位不要直接說我在發表自己的意見我現在從頭到尾在回答黃國昌委員的問題為什麼今天沒有叫行政院來行政院明明說要當主管機關我在這邊給各位的報告是我還是相信台灣有權力分立那因為權力分立之下考試院跟行政院是一樣大的"},{"start":527.092,"end":555.767,"text":"並沒有考試院低於行政院所以主管機關有考試院我今天才會請考試院來我想我這個是做憲政制度上面的說明絕對不是說在這邊跟大家吵架所以如果說你們覺得我對於我國憲政制度或對於五權分立我有誤解的話歡迎來打臉我我一直對於法律的論述都這樣那我也很尊重不同意見的人以上是我對黃國昌委員的回答我不知道有沒有回答到你的問題沒關係啊 尊重召委的安排不過我覺得行政院"},{"start":556.909,"end":579.378,"text":"到底搶著當主管機關是真的有要立法還是在阻礙立法沒有關係啊我們在審法案的時候繼續看下去那現在是不是有請我們考試院那個密疏長你要不要休息一下因為我有點擔心還是你先休息請你們那個次次長上來就好了"},{"start":585.495,"end":613.331,"text":"委員長市長好上一次我質詢你的時候我有問因為有警消跟我投訴他們一直有得到消息本院三讀通過的法律針對提銷警消的所得替代率相關的部門能拖就拖 能混就混 擺明就是沒有要發我上次為什麼在質詢的時候我會特別問這個問題警察人員人事條例修法"},{"start":614.485,"end":643.571,"text":"我們已經三讀通過 總統已經公佈了結果在整個作業的時間當中我不斷的關心到底什麼時候會處理那上一次呢 你給我回答是12月以前你們要依法執行因為現在很多事情在忙嘛什麼電腦系統啊 在調整但我現在已經有一點看不太清楚了現在行政院是連預算都沒有編啊如果連預算都沒有編的話你12月底以前要怎麼依法執行啊"},{"start":644.827,"end":671.2,"text":"你當初是知道會發生這樣的事情裝不知道在騙我嗎還是你根本就不知道因為我不會知道啊因為預算編列依照憲法的規定沒關係我們一條一條來齁你上次回給我的書面說明啊說你們相關的執行作業本部內政部及有關機關已經在4月29號5月16號28號6月25號及30號召開五次延伤會議就警察人員人事條例第35條規定確定立法"},{"start":675.359,"end":698.649,"text":"法治適用原則那確立法治適用原則這五次開會的法治適用原則有說不發嗎從來沒有說不發內政部有沒有說不發那其他的有關機關有哪些機關海巡署警察大學消防署所以大家都說要發"},{"start":699.861,"end":727.751,"text":"我們在會上就是討論我們怎麼樣去做這件事情是啊 但現在問題來了根本沒有編預算要怎麼發這個就是我的問題啊這就是我的問題啊這個法律生效通過了以後我們依法論法 我不跟你談政治啊我依法論法 退休的景蕭依照這個法律三讀生效通過了以後對於國家是不是產生公法上的金錢請求權是還是不是"},{"start":729.332,"end":753.558,"text":"是嘛 這個國家的公法上金錢請求權會因為我們的政府有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎 會不會我跟委員報告 就是說有沒有編預算對不起啊 請你針對預算 請你針對我的問題回答 時間有限啊但是那個預算 我的理解 我說就我有限的理解預算支出也要有它經過預算程序通過的名目跟相關的規範"},{"start":754.958,"end":782.721,"text":"是啊 名目不就警察人員人事條例你剛剛也講了啊這是法律義務支出啊這退休警消對國家的公法上金錢請求權啊我剛剛問你的問題請你不要迴避喔不好意思齁請你針對我的問題回答我説明一下那條上面還有講到因此而外增加的要由政府編列預算支應啊那當然嘛法制作業上本來就如此啊但我現在問你的是公務人員對於國家"},{"start":785.083,"end":796.539,"text":"公法上的金錢請求權這個請求權會因為國家有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎這是基本的法律問題耶大二上過行政法的都知道耶不敢回答喔"},{"start":798.172,"end":815.865,"text":"蛤 現在連考試院啊 都看著上億在辦事喔我跟委員報告 我們部裡面立場就是把我們該做的該審查的這邊就如同沒有關係啊 你們現在電腦作業什麼時候會做完我們應該在10月左右應該他就因為我們現在已經 是 什麼時候會做完"},{"start":817.441,"end":845.3,"text":"做完了以後要不要按照你們部裡面的喔我先講你們部裡面的就好了你們部裡面做完以後要不要針對重新核定的退休金寄發通知給所有的景銷 要還是不要什麼時候會發這個我們大概就誠如在22號答覆您的我們會在12月底以前把它完成在上次我也是這樣跟您12月底以前記得齁該給人家的通知要通知喔可以嗎"},{"start":846.201,"end":864.259,"text":"不會因為說現在沒有編預算賴清德跟卓榮泰說不給就不發通知喔這通知很重要啊因為這些退休的景銷到時候拿到通知了以後我才知道嘛接下來我如果要透過行政訴訟的方式要求國家履行這個公法上的金錢請求權"},{"start":865.7,"end":887.544,"text":"我才知道計算的金額是多少數字聲明要怎麼寫嘛所以站在考試院的立場不應該被政治上面所左右依法你們要核發給人家的通知依照警察人員人事條例重新核定的退休金應該要多少錢這個通知就會發出去對不對對 我們部裡面要做的事情什麼時候可以發完"},{"start":888.579,"end":904.332,"text":"我們就跟您報告嘛 12月底好 12月底先把它發完 下一個問題國發基金不當投資啊我上次一直在追啊 這個莫名其妙怎麼會有這麼離譜的事一個決定拿納稅人的錢去投資的人"},{"start":905.675,"end":932.811,"text":"結果做了會議主席 投資完了以後自己跑去那家被投資的公司當董事我的老天啊這明顯違反旋轉門條款我開始追這件事情的時候結果國發會給我回文喔 他說依照旋序部回覆並重申該部85年函式有關旋轉門條款規定所稱職務直接相關什麼職務直接相關 避免權力濫用嘛"},{"start":934.158,"end":958.749,"text":"跟你職務直接相關的我現在代表國發基金 我是執行秘書我還擔任這個審查委員會的主席我決定要投資這家公司結果我跑去這家公司當董事這當然是跟職務直接相關啊這當然是跟職務直接相關啊你甚至不用念法律系啊甚至不要念一般行政啊"},{"start":960.046,"end":981.058,"text":"你隨便問一個有公民素養的高中生就知道這絕對職務直接相關啊結果呢 國發會說我們有發函給玄敘部玄敘部給我們的回覆說呢必須要各該營利事業的目的事業主管機關或者是離職前呢 具有營建或採購業務相關關係現在問題來了"},{"start":985.799,"end":1000.24,"text":"公務人員服務法職務直接相關什麼時候給選區部這樣的權限 透過你們的函式把範圍限縮掉 拖曳法律規範之本質你要不要說明一下現在是什麼 官官相護嗎"},{"start":1001.254,"end":1026.654,"text":"我跟委員報告這個服務法旋轉條款當時就服務法第13條那因為當初第13條通過的文字在考試院院會是當時有對這個部分未來在執行應該如何執行他有做過一個更精準的一個具體怎麼樣去做處理那民國85年這個函式就是根據當時權敘部報告考試院的一個說明資料上面做了這個但是因為違反服務法基本上它有兩個效果"},{"start":1027.835,"end":1055.438,"text":"對不起先不用講效果啦我們先回到法條構成文字啦職務直接相關為什麼選區部把他限縮到這種程度這是我現在的問題因為在85年通過這法律的時候大家認為說到底這個條文應該怎麼去執行不是啊那我就直接問你嘛今天我是國發基金的執行秘書這個投資會議我當主席通過了以後我跑去被投資的公司當董事這個是不是職務直接相關"},{"start":1056.058,"end":1070.649,"text":"我跟委員報告因為它是我職務相關會產生後面法律效果這是由法院來決定因為後面會有將近兩年復刑根本不會啦 按照啦你們現在做的方式不會由法院做決定啦"},{"start":1071.349,"end":1092.967,"text":"為什麼不會有法院做決定國發會就擋在前面啦用選序部的函式當靠山啊說依照選序部的函式這個沒有違反旋轉門條款啊接下來就不會發動下一步的法律程序啦來我直接給你看例子啦這有沒有違反旋轉門條款台中市公務局局長"},{"start":1094.578,"end":1120.443,"text":"結果離職以後三年內跑去一家營造廠當總經理最後沒有違反懸殊短門條款按照 你就本於你們考試院剛剛的韓式回答我這個問題就好了有還是沒有因為我記得我們幫署你那個韓式還有包括有採購關係營建關係都是所以這個案子要看他沒有採購關係也沒有營造關係這個當年他跟他之間是不是有這個沒有 我現在就跟你講沒有"},{"start":1121.623,"end":1148.862,"text":"這樣子有沒有違反旋轉門條款你們的函式沒有違反旋轉門條款為什麼因為所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部啊我只要不要任職經濟部就好啦所有公司的主管機關都經濟部啊公司法規定的很清楚啊那代表什麼 按照你們這個函式只要不是任職經濟部或者是地方目的事業主管機關經濟局的通通不會違反旋轉門條款啊"},{"start":1150.68,"end":1175.308,"text":"我跟他不要有採購 不要有營造的關係但我可以跟他有什麼我可以跟他有 我事後去他公司當總經理 當董事長通通都不會違反旋轉門條款啦我為什麼提這個案子 往下看當初那個人在法院接受審判的時候他就說 依照考試院的函式我不是在目的事業主管機關欸"},{"start":1177.54,"end":1196.799,"text":"我是在公務局耶 我不是在經濟局耶而且第二個 這家公司跟我任職的台中市政府也沒有採購關係 也沒有營造關係啊所以沒有違反公務員服務法百分之一百百分之一百就是用你們考試院的含釋來當擋箭牌"},{"start":1200.083,"end":1222.706,"text":"百分之一百就是你們用你們考試院的函式來當擋箭牌啊結果當擋箭牌最後的結果是什麼這字啊 我一個字都沒改當初他在法院的時候就是用這個當擋箭牌最後的結果被法官打槍啊有罪確定被法官打槍有罪確定啊胡說八道把大家當笨蛋"},{"start":1224.111,"end":1236.292,"text":"這不是跟職務直接相關 什麼是跟職務直接相關但這個是法院要認定是嘛 現在就出現問題啦為什麼考試院做了函事就法律應該有的解釋"},{"start":1237.665,"end":1256.975,"text":"什麼叫韓式啊 法律應該有什麼解釋做正確的解釋你們的解釋被法院打臉了啊85年欸 恐龍時代的韓式到2025年繼續用而且用來包庇什麼 用來包庇綠油油這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討"},{"start":1258.806,"end":1276.419,"text":"法院的判決都打臉你們的韓市啦這個韓市要不要回去重新檢討這個韓市現在被拿來幹嘛被拿來在國發基金裡面胡搞瞎搞的人當擋箭牌國發基金投資的對象 投資的每一家公司目的事業主管機關 全部都經濟部啊絕對都不是國發會哇"},{"start":1281.164,"end":1296.212,"text":"真的是見內心喜 喜出望外我國發會愛怎麼搞怎麼搞因為這些公司的目的事業主管機關都是經濟部不是我國發會所以按照我們考試院的函式這個都不是跟職務直接相關"},{"start":1298.117,"end":1324.782,"text":"你們考試院要不要回去重新檢討一下很丟臉欸很丟臉欸85年的韓式被法院打臉了到2025年不改繼續被拿來包庇這些胡搞瞎搞的官員當作黨箭牌考試院很閒嗎還是考試院太忙了這麼重要的韓式欸被法院判決打臉欸現在繼續被拿來當黨箭牌"},{"start":1328.12,"end":1353.418,"text":"考試院針對這個函試要不要回去重新檢討我跟委員報告喔所有每個委員服務法的被法院判決都是有很法院都有很細的調查是中間都有一些證據或什麼來沒有關係啊事實我們沒有真實啊現在我在跟你講的是法律解釋的問題請你不要 請你不要把法律解釋的問題要把它拉到事實認定的問題這個事實很清楚了啦"},{"start":1354.558,"end":1376.436,"text":"這個事實非常清楚 事實認定一點問題都沒有唯有的問題是什麼 法律解釋而這個莫名其妙的法律解釋啊 是哪裡來的就從考試院來的啊就從考試院來的啊我有說錯嗎當然要尊重法院判決所以我才叫你回去改函式啊"},{"start":1378.025,"end":1399.753,"text":"這個韓式被法院打臉了你又說要尊重法院判決又在那邊繼續凹這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討要還是不要要不要回去重新檢討 要還是不要我們可以再重新檢討一下看一下這個個案到底是怎麼樣沒有關係啊 召委站起來了 回去重新檢討你不用去看個案"},{"start":1400.714,"end":1426.596,"text":"你不用去看個案 你直接看你自己啊在法院的判決裡面被打臉的法律見解就好啊丟人現眼啦 丟人現眼啦85年的韓式欸 到2025年拿來變成在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人的黨建牌莫名其妙我對考試院本來還有一點尊重喔"},{"start":1427.591,"end":1456.931,"text":"如果今天考試院要幫這種在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人築起防火牆我直接跟你們講這件事情絕對沒完沒了這件事情絕對沒完沒了國發基金是納稅人的錢欸不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸國發基金是納稅人的錢不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸可以這樣搞喔檢討要多少時間一個月夠不夠"},{"start":1458.809,"end":1460.45,"text":"檢討韓式就好了啦好沒關係來請秘書長檢討要多少時間 一個月夠不夠"},{"start":1472.245,"end":1488.337,"text":"呃 委員讓我們回去研究一下我想85年的韓式是不是沒有關係你們需要多少時間會後書面回覆給我我不是要你回覆答案啦回覆給我說我們研究這個韓式需要多少時間接下班以前回覆給我可以嗎好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時16分）謝謝主席。在開始進行詢答以前，我大概有個會議程序上面的事項，可能是詢問，可能也是建議。因為剛剛聽到考試院秘書長報告說這個法律案其實考試院本來有準備，早就要送來審議了，結果行政院有意見，行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關。如果行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關，顯然行政院對這個法有非常強烈的意見。","既然行政院搶著要當主管機關，攸關本法的行政機關到底應該是由考試院還是行政院，我建議接下來處理法案的時候，請行政院派有代表權的人來，因為行政院搶著要當主管機關，那行政院就要來這邊把立場講清楚嘛！因為行政院搶著當主管機關，針對政務人員行為基準法，他們認為應該有發言的權利，看起來似乎也沒有排斥這個法有立法的必要，但是我們看到過去行政院，特別是行政院的政務官，從閣員到次長，剛剛我聽秘書長講，還有考試院的書面報告說公務員服務法裡面有一些規範，政務人員也有遵守，譬如其中服務法所定應該謹慎發言，那我就看不懂啦！如果這個法對政務人員有適用的話，過去這段時間，行政院的這些閣員有謹慎發言嗎？可以指著在野黨的立委說你吃臺灣米做中國鬼嗎？可以在臉書上面說726大罷免沒有成功，要繼續剿匪嗎？這是哪門子謹慎發言啊？這種問題要考試院回答，他們也很尷尬，不敢得罪當道，等一下我如果上來是問這種問題，只是讓考試院尷尬，他們不敢得罪當道嘛！有辦法回答這種問題的，恐怕可能要請現在賴著不下臺的卓榮泰，由行政院派一個有代表權的來，不然這個法案要怎麼審？光主管機關就吵不完了，這個是我在針對這個法案要進行實質審查以前給召委的建議。如果今天要進行實質逐條的審查，我也支持。","等一下是不是請議事人員……等一下法案進行逐條的時候，請卓榮泰趕快派一個代表來，謝謝主席。"],["主席：跟黃委員報告，有關這部分其實我之前有思考過，我也知道行政院突然希望能當主管機關。我自己思考過幾個問題，我還是相信我國有權力分立，雖然現在在實務上看起來我國權力分立似乎是一個幌子，完全違反孟德斯鳩的概念。當行政權、立法權及司法權結合的時候，帶來的就是專制，這是孟德斯鳩講的。專制的原理是什麼？就是恐怖，而臺灣就是走向這樣，但我還是相信我們可能還是有權力分立！依照現在的制度，我們公務員……"],["王委員義川：這是在聊天吧？"],["主席：不是！我在回答問題！王委員，我在回答，我剛才有說跟黃委員報告。你還沒進來之前，他已經說是會議詢問，所以我現在回答他，王委員，請不要干擾議事，謝謝。我也很尊重你的。"],["羅委員智強：尊重主席啦！"],["主席：我很尊重王委員。"],["王委員義川：你們要聊天……"],["主席：王委員，我很尊重你……"],["王委員義川：你在講你的意見……"],["主席：我在回答他問題，我回答他問題要經過你同意嗎？王委員，請問一下，我回答其他委員的問題需要王委員你這位大人同意嗎？我跟你講……"],["王委員義川：都這樣！你說講幾分鐘，每次他都講幾分鐘……"],["羅委員智強：你去選召委啦！你去選召委啦！"],["王委員義川：昨天說6分鐘，結果講了幾分鐘？你自己講6分鐘……"],["主席：王委員，如果你要這樣子要求我們開會時，每一個人時間到都停止發言，請你問問陳培瑜、吳思瑤，我是不是都讓大家講完？"],["王委員義川：講幾分鐘？"],["主席：我是不是都讓大家儘量講完？"],["羅委員智強：王義川，你夠了沒有？尊重主席！"],["主席：除非今天的會議時間拖太長……"],["羅委員智強：王義川，請你尊重主席！"],["主席：王委員，如果你不懂議事規則，請回去把議事規則搞清楚！"],["王委員義川：你昨天說一個人講6分鐘，他講幾分鐘？你講幾分鐘？"],["羅委員智強：王義川，你去約束……你們民進黨的人也有逾時，好不好？"],["主席：你要不要去看看貴黨的陳培瑜委員、吳思瑤委員，我沒有干擾他們？我都讓他們把話講完……"],["王委員義川：一個人只能講6分鐘，你不用講……"],["主席：我跟你講，各委員會有各委員會作法……"],["羅委員智強：你去改內規啊！"],["王委員義川：你就直接開罵……"],["主席：我跟你講，你去當民進黨的召委，你來主持會議！你下個會期就當召委，好不好？"],["王委員義川：都聽你的啦！"],["主席：我跟你講，在這邊跟你吵架是拉低我們自己的格調，不用在國會吵架給全國人民看，這是拉低我們的格調！"],["王委員義川：你們兩個都拉低格調啦！"],["主席：但是我跟你說，王委員，今天黃委員在議事詢問，所以我回答他的問題；如果你等一下有問題要問我，請你到臺上來！你到臺上來之後，我也會回答你的問題，其他就不用多說了！不管你講什麼，今天會議是我主持。如果你對議事的主持這麼有興趣，麻煩你當下一任召委，你來制止我們講話，我OK，我沒有意見。至於今天在這邊，各委員會有各委員會的作法，從這屆（第11屆）第1會期到現在，我主持了三個會期，我是不是都儘量讓大家講完？雖然我們規定講8分鐘，這是訓示規定，但各委員會有不同的文化，有的文化是8分鐘一到，立刻關掉麥克風。但是本委員會，包括莊瑞雄委員在主持，都是儘量讓大家講完，除非真的講太長了，我們才會制止！你可以去看過去的VOD是不是都這樣？這部分我不會騙你，我不會因為面對黃國昌就讓他講到高興，面對陳培瑜就不讓他講！你可以去看看過去我主持會議是不是都是這樣公平？如果等一下你對會議有什麼問題，歡迎你到前面來問。王委員，基本上我對你是很尊重的，一直以來我對你都很尊重。我們不要在這邊吵架給全國人民看，我覺得這真的不好，真的降低國會議員彼此的格調，好不好？王委員，不好意思，就這樣。","黃委員，我要回答你的問題。你剛剛說要請行政院派人來，為什麼我今天沒有請行政院來？雖然行政院有說要當主管機關。過往我們所看到的，不管是公務員服務法或一些懲戒事項，或公務員中立法等等，主管機關是考試院，而非行政院。我認為考慮到體例上的一貫，應該還是由考試院來，這就是為什麼我今天沒有請行政院派人來的主要原因。當然，我們在審查法條時，如果行政院要求要擔任主管機關的話，未來審查時我們可能就會請行政院派人過來。","第二個，如果今天由行政院擔任主管機關的話，我擔心會球員兼裁判，所以我剛才會提到還是相信權力分立這句話。各位不要直接說我在發表自己的意見，我從頭到尾都是在回答黃國昌委員的問題！為什麼今天沒有叫行政院來？行政院明明說要當主管機關。我在這邊向各位報告，我還是相信臺灣有權力分立！在權力分立之下，考試院跟行政院是一樣大的，考試院並沒有低於行政院。目前主管機關有考試院，所以我今天才會請考試院來，這是就憲政制度上面的說明，絕對不是要跟大家吵架。如果你們覺得我對於我國的憲政制度，或對五權分立有誤解的話，歡迎來打臉我，我對法律的論述一直都是這樣，我也很尊重不同意見的人。","以上是我對黃國昌委員的回答，不知道有沒有回答到你的問題？"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，尊重召委的安排。不過行政院搶著當主管機關到底是真的有要立法，還是在阻礙立法？沒有關係，我們在審法案的時候繼續看下去。"],["主席：黃委員要找哪一位？"],["黃委員國昌：現在是不是有請考試院？"],["主席：麻煩請考試院。"],["黃委員國昌：考試院秘書長，你要不要休息一下？因為我有點擔心，還是你先休息，請次長上來就好。"],["主席：麻煩懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。上一次質詢你的時候我有問，有警消跟我投訴，他們一直有得到消息，本院三讀通過的法律，針對提高警消所得替代率，相關部門能拖就拖、能混就混，擺明就是沒有要發。為什麼我上次質詢時會特別問這個問題？警察人員人事條例修法已經三讀通過，總統已經公布了，因此就作業時間，我不斷關心到底什麼時候會處理？上一次你給我的回答是12月以前你們會依法執行，因為現在有很多事情在忙，什麼電腦系統在調整之類的。但我現在已經有一點看不太清楚了，因為行政院連預算都沒有編！如果連預算都沒有編，12月底以前要怎麼依法執行？你當初就知道會發生這樣的事情，故意裝不知道在騙我嗎？還是你根本就不知道？"],["懷次長敍：這個我不會知道！預算編列是依照憲法規定，這……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我們一條一條來。你上次回給我的書面說明提到，相關的執行作業本部、內政部及有關機關已經在4月29號、5月16號、28號、6月25號及30號召開五次研商會議，就警察人員人事條例第三十五條規定確立法制適用原則。既然是確立法制適用原則，那麼這五次開會的法制適用原則有說不發嗎？"],["懷次長敍：沒有，我們談的是……"],["黃委員國昌：從來沒有說不發？"],["懷次長敍：講的是怎麼樣分工、怎麼樣來做……"],["黃委員國昌：內政部有沒有說不發？"],["懷次長敍：沒有，會上我們討論的……"],["黃委員國昌：其他的有關機關有哪些？"],["懷次長敍：海巡署、警察大學、消防署……"],["黃委員國昌：大家都說要發？"],["懷次長敍：我們在會上就是討論我們怎麼樣去做這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！但現在問題來了，根本沒有編預算要怎麼發？這就是我的問題啊！法律生效通過了以後，我們依法論法，我不跟你談政治，我依法論法。退休警消依照三讀生效通過以後的法律，對於國家是不是產生公法上的金錢請求權？是還是不是？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嗎？國家公法上的金錢請求權會因為政府有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎？會不會？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，有沒有編預算……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，請你針對我的問題回答，時間有限。"],["懷次長敍：但是那個預算，我的理解、就我有限的理解，預算支出也要有經過預算程序通過的名目跟相關規範。"],["黃委員國昌：名目不就警察人員人事條例？你剛剛也講了，這是法律義務支出，是退休警消對國家公法上的金錢請求權，所以我剛剛問你的問題請你不要迴避！"],["懷次長敍：但是那一條上面有……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請你針對我的問題回答。"],["懷次長敍：我說明一下。那一條上面有講到，因此額外增加的要由政府編列預算支應……"],["黃委員國昌：當然！"],["懷次長敍：對啊！"],["黃委員國昌：法制作業上本來就是如此。我現在問你的是，公務人員對國家公法上的金錢請求權會因為國家有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎？這是基本的法律問題，大二上過行政法的人都知道耶，不敢回答喔？"],["懷次長敍：我們部裡面的立場就是……"],["黃委員國昌：現在連考試院都看著上意在辦事喔？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，我們部裡面的立場就是把我們該做的、該審查的，就如同……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你們現在電腦作業什麼時候會做完？"],["懷次長敍：我們應該在10月左右就可以……因為我們現在已經……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會做完？做完了以後，要不要按照你們部裡面的……"],["懷次長敍：大概10月左右。"],["黃委員國昌：我先講你們部裡面的就好了，你們部裡面做完以後，要不要針對重新核定的退休金寄發通知給所有的警消？要還是不要？"],["懷次長敍：要，這個我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會發？"],["懷次長敍：這個部分就誠如在22號答復您的，我們會在12月底以前把它完成，上一次我也是這樣跟您報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，記得12月底以前，該給人家的通知要通知，可以嗎？不會因為說現在沒有編預算，賴清德跟卓榮泰說不給就不發通知，這個通知很重要，因為這些退休的警消到時候拿到通知了以後才知道，接下來如果要透過行政訴訟的方式要求國家履行這個公法上的金錢請求權，才知道計算的金額是多少、訴之聲明要怎麼寫，所以站在考試院的立場，不應該被政治所左右，依法你們要核發給人家的通知，依照警察人員人事條例重新核定的退休金應該要多少錢，這個通知就會發出去，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：對，我們部裡面做我們部裡面要做的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以發完？"],["懷次長敍：我們就跟您報告，12月底以前我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：好，12月底以前把它發完。","下一個問題，國發基金不當投資，我上次一直在追，這個莫名其妙，怎麼會有這麼離譜的事？一個決定拿納稅人的錢去投資的人，結果做了會議主席投資完了以後，自己跑去那家被投資的公司當董事，我的老天啊！這明顯違反旋轉門條款，我開始追這件事情的時候，結果國發會給我回文說「依照銓敘部回復並重申該部八十五年函釋，有關旋轉門條款規定所稱職務直接相關……」，什麼職務直接相關？避免權力濫用嘛！你職務直接相關的，我現在代表國發基金，我是執行秘書，我還擔任這個審查委員會的主席，我決定要投資這家公司，結果我跑去這家公司當董事，這當然是跟職務直接相關，這當然是跟職務直接相關！你甚至不用念法律系，甚至不用念一般行政，你隨便問一個有公民素養的高中生就知道這絕對職務直接相關，結果國發會說我們有發函給銓敘部，銓敘部給我們的回復說，必須要各該營利事業的目的事業主管機關，或者是離職前具有營建或採購業務相關關係。現在問題來了，公務人員服務法的職務直接相關，什麼時候給銓敘部這樣的權限，透過你們的函釋把範圍限縮掉，脫逸法律規範之本旨？你要不要說明一下，現在是什麼？官官相護嗎？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，這個服務法的旋轉門條款，就是當時的服務法第十三條。因為當初第十三條通過的文字，在考試院院會有針對這個部分未來在執行應該如何執行，有做過一個更精準的、具體怎麼樣去處理。民國85年這個函釋就是根據當時銓敘部報給考試院的說明資料所做的。因為違反服務法，基本上它有兩個效果，一個是他可能會被……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，先不用講效果，我們先回到法條構成文字。為什麼銓敘部把職務直接相關限縮到這種程度？這是我現在的問題。"],["懷次長敍：因為在85年通過這個法律的時候，大家認為到底這個條文應該怎麼去執行……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，那我就直接問你，今天我是國發基金的執行秘書，這個投資會議我當主席，通過了以後，我跑去被投資的公司當董事，這個是不是職務直接相關？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，因為他是否職務相關會產生後面的法律效果，這是由法院來決定，因為後面會有將近兩年的徒刑跟100萬元的罰金。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，根本不會！按照你們現在做的方式……"],["懷次長敍：這個有沒有違反，要由法院來確定。"],["黃委員國昌：不會由法院決定，為什麼不會由法院決定？國發會就擋在前面啦！用銓敘部的函釋當靠山，說依照銓敘部的函釋，這個沒有違反旋轉門條款，接下來就不會發動下一步的法律程序。","我直接給你看例子，這有沒有違反旋轉門條款？臺中市工務局局長離職以後三年內跑去一家營造廠當總經理，這有沒有違反旋轉門條款？你就本於考試院剛剛的函釋回答我這個問題就好了，有還是沒有？"],["懷次長敍：這個還要看他……因為我記得我們85年那個函釋，還有包括有採購關係、營建關係都是。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是。"],["懷次長敍：所以這個案子要看……"],["黃委員國昌：他沒有採購關係，也沒有營造關係。"],["懷次長敍：這個要看當年他跟他之間是不是有這個……這個是個案，我沒有辦法回應這個問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我現在就跟你講沒有，這樣子有沒有違反旋轉門條款？按你們的函釋，沒有違反旋轉門條款，為什麼？因為所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部，我只要不要任職經濟部就好了。所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部，公司法規定的很清楚，那代表什麼？按照你們這個函釋，只要不是任職經濟部或者是地方目的事業主管機關經濟局的，通通不會違反旋轉門條款。我跟他不要有採購，不要有營造的關係，但我可以跟他有什麼？我可以事後去他公司當總經理、當董事長，通通都不會違反旋轉門條款啊！我為什麼提這個案子？當初這個人在法院接受審判的時候，他就說依照考試院的函釋，他不是在目的事業主管機關，是在工務局，不是在經濟局耶。而且第二個，這家公司跟他任職的臺中市政府沒有採購關係，也沒有營造關係，所以沒有違反公務員服務法。百分之一百就是用你們考試院的函釋來當擋箭牌，百分之一百就是用你們考試院的函釋來當擋箭牌，結果當擋箭牌最後的結果是什麼？我一個字都沒改，當初他在法院的時候就是用這個當擋箭牌，最後的結果是被法官打槍，有罪確定！被法官打槍，有罪確定，胡說八道，把大家當笨蛋。這不是跟職務直接相關，什麼是跟職務直接相關？"],["懷次長敍：但這個是法院要認定，這不是我們部裡面可以認定的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，現在就出現問題了，為什麼考試院做了函釋，就法律應該有的解釋，什麼叫函釋？法律應該有什麼解釋？做正確的解釋，你們的解釋被法院打臉了，85年，恐龍時代的函釋到2025年繼續用，而且用來包庇什麼？用來包庇綠友友！這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？法院的判決都打臉你們的函釋了，這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？這個函釋現在被拿來幹嘛？被拿來在國發基金裡面胡搞瞎搞的人當擋箭牌。國發基金投資的對象、投資的每一家公司，目的事業主管機關全部都是經濟部，絕對都不是國發會。哇！真的是見獵心喜、喜出望外，國發會愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，因為這些公司的目的事業主管機關都是經濟部，不是國發會，所以按照考試院的函釋，這個都不是跟職務直接相關，考試院要不要回去重新檢討一下？很丟臉！85年的函釋被法院打臉了，到2025年不改，繼續被拿來包庇，被這些胡搞瞎搞的官員當作擋箭牌，考試院很閒嗎？還是考試院太忙了？這麼重要的函釋，被法院判決打臉，現在繼續被拿來當擋箭牌，考試院針對這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，每個違反服務法的、被法院判決都是有很……法院都有很細的調查，這中間都有一些證據或什麼來推論……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，事實我們沒有爭執……"],["懷次長敍：作為考試院的部分，我們從未就個案認定他有沒有違反服務法……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在跟你講的是法律解釋的問題，請你不要把法律解釋的問題又把它拉到事實認定的問題，這個事實很清楚了。這個事實非常清楚，事實認定一點問題都沒有，唯一有的問題是什麼？法律解釋，而這個莫名其妙的法律解釋是哪裡來的？就是從考試院來的，我有說錯嗎？"],["懷次長敍：所以我們要尊重法院的判決。"],["黃委員國昌：當然要尊重法院的判決，所以我才叫你回去改函釋，這個函釋被法院打臉了，你又說要尊重法院判決，又在那邊繼續拗，這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？要還是不要？要不要回去重新檢討？要還是不要？"],["懷次長敍：我們可以再重新檢討看一下這個個案到底是什麼狀況……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，召委站起來了，回去重新檢討，你不用去看個案，直接看你自己在法院的判決裡面被打臉的法律見解就好，丟人現眼啊！85年的函釋到2025年變成在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人的擋箭牌，莫名其妙！我對考試院本來還有一點尊重，如果今天考試院要幫這種在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人築起防火牆，我直接跟你們講這件事情絕對沒完沒了，國發基金是納稅人的錢，不是民進黨的黨庫！可以這樣搞？檢討要多少時間？一個月夠不夠？檢討函釋就好了啦！"],["懷次長敍：因為這個當初是考試院的決議，我們沒辦法來說明……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，請秘書長。檢討要多少時間，一個月夠不夠？"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，讓我們回去研究一下，我想85年的函釋是不是有當時的思考範圍……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你們需要多少時間？會後書面回復給我，我不是要你回復答案，回復給我你們研究這個函釋需要多少時間。今天下班以前回復給我，可以嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},{"id":"163699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0de38d3dd43d9d74d429d94ee5da1954d1055ccb7a5c893e7aa2f2f8d96988cd739c7deb8e227a905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:34:49 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我們下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢 請四分鐘了好 謝謝召委然後我請那個主計長 陳主計長跟跟金管會的彭主委彭主委 請"},{"start":24.176,"end":34.605,"text":"我先請教一下主席長好 主席長這一次的追加預算878億但是現在有傳出來說如果要刪掉113億如果這樣刪的話會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":39.184,"end":57.12,"text":"這裡面因為我們878億扣除636就是一般性的補助款之外然後再來就是我們那個原民會的進華補償那還有一個國軍加薪的59億所以它主要的一個項目如果扣除之後呢那有很多大的一個項目是"},{"start":58.801,"end":85.635,"text":"部會他覺得困難然後要想申請能夠追加的一個部分因為這裡面當初在總預算在三減的時候他三減的一個百分比過高第二個他指定三減之後又不得流用所以造成在執行上所以這兩個因素導致所以我們現在提出來那追加預算裡面有很多也都是基本上包括地方政府的需要甚至於國軍的甚至於外交甚至於軍公教的一些需要是"},{"start":86.475,"end":106.231,"text":"所以應該是不要設定它的額度應該是就實際上面該給的就給 該刪的就刪我覺得這樣來討論應該是比較我們期盼朝野的立委大家理性來討論不要設定一個額度該刪的就刪 該給的就給以國家整體的發展需要為整體思考好不好是 謝謝委員好 謝謝主席長 謝謝再要請教一下彭主委"},{"start":109.052,"end":135.391,"text":"現在其實大家也高度在關心住房者的一些房貸的問題之前我有找過來談過首購族跟換屋自住族跟整個已經取得銀行承諾的貸款額度的這些不會受到影響吧主委要說明一下我們現在在全力的在處理這件事情希望我們的銀行針對這三個自住首購跟以何貸的部分我們確保民生需要"},{"start":136.302,"end":151.894,"text":"這個要確保不要造成民心的一個恐慌因為首購包括自住包括已經獲得承諾這個部分他們相對的權益是要給予保障的但是我們來看一下其實就整個購置住宅貸款的餘額比較裡面"},{"start":152.955,"end":168.455,"text":"公股銀行大多數但還是持續的成長出來貸款持續的成長反倒是民間的銀行整個都降低了主委顯然是有些本來民間銀行該貸款出去了反倒現在轉到公股銀行去了主委有什麼樣的看法來處理這件事情"},{"start":169.156,"end":185.754,"text":"其實跟委員報告本來這個房貸的部分關股本來就是主要的他們主要是大宗民營的銀行除了少部分大部分做這個部分的比例都不如關股當然關股在做還有一些政策貸款的部分在內啦我想他們的水位確實比較高"},{"start":187.295,"end":216.415,"text":"我希望主委要去協助啦好不好讓這個必要的一些貸款的部分這個當然打房要進行但是對於一般的貸款特別是首購自住的這些或清安的部分不要讓他們權益受到影響這我們全力來處理我們現在也請也請受刑公司他們也有一些部分的資金也會來投入那再來是很多的自住型的貸款它的成數降低了原來本來貸到七八成後來因為這個影響而降到了六成多這個部分主委有沒有什麼樣處理的方案"},{"start":217.215,"end":229.641,"text":"這個其實主要是另外一個就是我們的信用管制的部分那金管會這邊主政的是我們722條的那個所謂的有關流動性比例的上限的問題"},{"start":231.659,"end":251.817,"text":"我希望接下来有些协助因为有些可能涉及到内政部有一些涉及到其他的部会的部分我希望整体一体来思考不要让整个整体的一些特别是清安或首购的或者是自助的权益受到一些影响最后我问一个银行有用拉长审查的时间来变相拒贷这件事情有没有这样的事情的发生"},{"start":252.217,"end":273.753,"text":"其實跟委員報告我們有事其實最近我們有密集的去了解因為銀行主要是他們比如說他有分行非常的多每個分行都有額度那其實上他們額度在最近如果比較快接近他們內控的上限的時候他們就會控管所以在會有一些排隊的情形我希望主委注意這件事情不要讓他變相的成為一個拉長貸款的時間好不好好 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sum、大水庫的概念，這是對於各縣市……現在我們已經有提案了，已付委了，還沒有審，下次審的時候，我就加一個字就好了，中央政府對各縣市的地方補助款不得少於去年，這樣就可以了，這樣子就沒有亂搞的空間。請你簡單30秒回應。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為我們要拿4,165億給地方，一般縣市補助要維持2,501億……"],["賴委員士葆：兩千多億啦！你不要講其他的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：然後縣市也要求計畫型補助不能減少，要按照以往的來列，以中央來講，如果通通這樣列，就會超過舉債額度，這個部分我們就沒有辦法支應。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，你的觀念要變一下，以過去來講，中央、地方的財源是75比25，這是不通的，我們要改成6比4，這個你接受就可以了，好啦！你請回。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是委員，我跟你講，75裡面包括11%是省政府的部分，而省政府的部分有將近4,000億目前是在中央裡面來執行。"],["賴委員士葆：要給地方的啦！那個要給地方。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以那個業務應該要回轉給地方，如果這個不減的話……"],["賴委員士葆：業務你們去處理，給地方，我沒有意見。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以這個有一些部分是在一般性補助裡面，我們必須要做調整。"],["賴委員士葆：但是我反對你說這兩千多億都放在你手上，還要跟你申請，哇！你多大啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告，不是申請，是按照財力級距來分配，我們都會有各縣市的財力級距。"],["賴委員士葆：好，請回。我想請財政部莊部長、金管會彭主委及法務部鄭部長等三位長官。"],["主席：請三位長官。"],["賴委員士葆：時間暫停，給他們走路的時間，暫停一下。"],["主席：停了。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：三位長官好。我很快，我只有一分鐘不到的時間，泓德能源公司涉入光電弊案，它的光電儲能部分，今年3月由新光銀行統籌主辦，中小企銀、安泰等辦11億的聯貸案；而漁電共生部分，去年5月由兆豐銀主辦，國際票券、合庫、一銀、土銀等辦70億的聯合授信案。這裡面因為很多是公家銀行，我怕它會侵害到我們人民的權益，所以我就一句話問財政部莊部長及金管會彭主委兩位，你們什麼時候可以提出一個報告？針對這個事情提出個報告。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們儘快回去了解以後提出報告。"],["賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜以內，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們儘快。"],["賴委員士葆：兩個禮拜以內提出有關於這個聯貸案的報告，好不好？因為這已經涉入到弊案，然後請法務部鄭部長注意這件事情，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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我們請主計長陳主計長"},{"start":12.045,"end":37.971,"text":"委員好 主席長 是其實今天要讓你講的就是說從過去我們每一次有所有的預算尤其在我們當時候一頒補助款的時候當時候國民黨的執政縣市首長怎麼說我們的針對這636億我們現在把它回編回來嘛那其他不用講國軍的部分重不重要 很重要啊"},{"start":39.171,"end":66.13,"text":"他都罵我們不重視國軍 國軍很重要我們做了很多的加急所以這一次都全部把追加預算把它補進來禁法補償說很重要 我們也是把它補進來啦然後外交中不重要 很重要啊我們也是把它補進來啦然後中央對於地方的補助除了一般性補助 還有中央對地方的補助我們這一次把它補回來啦"},{"start":67.475,"end":91.813,"text":"那我們要看當時候國民黨的縣市首長怎麼說的我們希望在野黨的立委要看清楚這些縣市首長當時候怎麼說蔣萬安說我們拒絕讓中央這樣的宰割 有沒有侯友宜說馬上依法將一般性補助款要回歸到地方要求中央政府"},{"start":93.835,"end":119.972,"text":"張三振怎麼說 說如果沒有這筆錢就要取債了盧秀燕怎麼說 她說請中央歸還屬於地方的經費再來謝國良怎麼說 他說會取債 沒有這筆錢會取債黃明慧說 這個部分會影響到地方政府處理社福教育基本建設的支出"},{"start":121.806,"end":146.979,"text":"再來我們看到宜蘭代理縣長說這個有關民生社福重大建設所以要求中央要進步恢復剝副新竹縣怎麼說他說這個也對於地方人民影響很大會影響到地方政府的運作再來苗栗縣他說"},{"start":148.339,"end":165.015,"text":"他現在已經沒辦法舉債了因為苗栗縣的預算是最糟糕的所以如果沒有這筆錢會舉債許淑華說這個部分呼籲行政院要正視地方財政的困境要盡速恢復撥款"},{"start":167.206,"end":194.833,"text":"這個不是就藍營的縣市首長所說的嗎張立善怎麼說他說這個部分很重要因為水利救災防災如果沒有這筆錢鄉親會淹水重不重要很重要啊王惠美怎麼說她說希望行政院盡速撤銷原儲分恢復補助款這不就是縣市首長所說的嗎"},{"start":196.28,"end":218.162,"text":"許正威怎麼說他說會舉債沒有這筆錢會舉債饒慶你怎麼說他說這個會造成整個包括長者重養禮金哇把這筆錢講得好像神一樣所有的問題都在這筆錢所以如果沒有的話台東縣的憲政無法推動"},{"start":220.015,"end":247.227,"text":"都講得這麼嚴重連江縣呢他說如果沒有的話還是要舉債你看中央過去給地方多少的恩惠啊我再次強調現在縣市的執政是藍營多於綠營我們從來沒有在針對這個部分去做任何的調整是因為這一次國民黨亂三預算"},{"start":248.027,"end":266.209,"text":"把預算凍結 把預算刪掉了你不得不 你沒有辦法再做調整啦所以只好回補所以我覺得這個追加預算完完全全是及時雨如果各縣市都這麼嚴重拜託我們在野黨的立委不要再阻擋了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":108,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時25分）謝謝主席，我們請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：主計長，其實今天要讓你講的是，從過去我們每一次所有的預算，尤其在一般補助款的時候，當時國民黨的執政縣市首長是怎麼說我們的？針對這636億，我們現在把它編回來，其他的不用講，國軍部分重不重要？很重要啊！他都罵我們不重視國軍，國軍很重要，我們做了很多的加給，所以在這次都全部追加預算把它補進來。說禁伐補償很重要，我們也是把它補進來啦！外交重不重要？很重要啊！我們也是把它補進來啦！中央對於地方的補助，除了一般性補助，還有中央對地方的補助，我們這次也把它補回來啦！我們看當時國民黨的縣市首長是怎麼說的，我們很希望在野黨的立委要看清楚這些縣市首長當時怎麼說的。","蔣萬安說：我們拒絕讓中央這樣的宰割。侯友宜說：馬上依法將一般性補助款回歸到地方，要求中央政府。張善政說：如果沒有這筆錢就要舉債了。盧秀燕說：請中央歸還屬於地方的經費。謝國樑說：沒有這筆錢會舉債。黃敏惠說：這個部分會影響到地方政府處理社福、教育及基本建設的支出。再來，我們看到宜蘭代理縣長說：這個攸關民生社福與重大建設，所以要求中央要儘速恢復撥付。新竹縣說：這個對於地方、人民影響很大，會影響到地方政府的運作。苗栗縣說：他們現在已經沒辦法舉債了，因為苗栗縣的預算是最糟糕的，所以如果沒有這筆錢會舉債。許淑華說：這個部分呼籲行政院要正視地方財政的困境，要儘速恢復撥款。這個不就是藍營縣市首長所說的嗎？張麗善說：這個部分很重要，因為水利、救災、防災，如果沒有這筆錢，鄉親會淹水，重不重要？很重要啊！王惠美說：希望行政院儘速撤銷原處分，恢復補助款。這些不就是縣市首長所說的嗎？徐榛蔚說：沒有這筆錢會舉債。饒慶鈴說：這個會造成整個項目，包括長者重陽禮金，發不出來。哇！把這筆錢講得好像神一樣，所有的問題都在這筆錢，如果沒有的話，臺東縣的縣政無法推動，都講得這麼嚴重。連江縣說：如果沒有的話，還是要舉債。","你看中央過去給地方多少的恩惠啊！我再次強調，現在縣市的執政是藍營多於綠營，我們從來沒有針對這個部分去做任何的調整，是因為這一次國民黨亂刪預算，把預算凍結、把預算刪掉了，沒有辦法再做調整了，所以只好回補，因此我覺得這個追加預算完完全全是及時雨，如果各縣市都這麼嚴重，拜託在野黨的立委不要再阻擋了。"],["主席：謝謝、感謝。","接下來請賴士葆召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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陳主席好來 陳主席長來主席長早 是今天為什麼要這個追加錢為什麼要追加這麼多預算 講個原因"},{"start":32.703,"end":56.661,"text":"當然我們有幾個主要有幾個新增項目那還有一個就是說當初刪減的部分我們我們主要是有三項一個原住民保留地進化補償的部分那還有提升國軍待遇的部分還有一個加強外交執行能量要增加還有一個就是我們原來立法院刪減然後影響地方還有一個"},{"start":57.361,"end":82.151,"text":"我們各部門那個施政的一個情形的一個回覆希望能夠追加的部分了解這個是因為確實有需要所以要多增加這些支出啦但是就這兩天的媒體看到多數的藍白立委仍然磨刀霍霍要繼續砍那這個如果沒有通過會造成什麼影響呢"},{"start":84.609,"end":112.038,"text":"當然如果說有一些譬如說要做宣導的譬如我們主計總署五年才辦理一次的榮林普查的宣導會那這一次我們也是被減掉那我們還是有希望提出追加還有包括榮林普查相關的一個旅費也希望能夠恢復我不是只有問你主計處啦我不是只有問你主計處我是說這次的追加預算800多億如果沒有通過或是又被大量刪減你要怎麼處理啊會造成什麼結果啊"},{"start":112.844,"end":131.978,"text":"因為裡面有一個636億是屬於補助一般縣市政府的一個項目那裡面也有提升國軍的一個待遇還有加強外交執行能量的相關的一個經費所以這個部分呢都是影響到相當的一個權益包括縣市的一個執行"},{"start":133.493,"end":152.528,"text":"啊我都沒有看到我只是說我這兩天的媒體看到藍白又在那邊談他們國會多數要談哪個預算又要大幅刪減那我現在上來問你說啊這個如果被大幅刪減會造成什麼影響啊結果你這個回答蒼白無力我們不能被刪減啊刪減都會對施政造成影響這個就是行政院的答覆嗎你想跟我講的只有這樣嗎"},{"start":158.237,"end":167.086,"text":"那你不用讓國人知道說 這個刪減會對國家造成什麼樣的影響造成什麼樣的損害 會讓施政上面造成什麼樣的危機嗎還是我在替你們急 其實行政團隊不急你說什麼沒藥沒菌 沒粥沒粥 影響施政就這樣而已"},{"start":184.178,"end":201.86,"text":"這裡面其實有一些譬如說像海委會它有一些相關一個船艦的一個稅休這些等等還有包括有一些農業部一些治山防火大規模崩塌地的一個防災的一個相關的一個經費那這個部分呢所以我們"},{"start":203.793,"end":226.107,"text":"內政部還有包括生活圈一些道路系統的交通系統的一個建設等等這些所以我們認為這些都是非常重要的一個項目我們必須要辦理最佳非常重要只在這邊講就講這幾句現在的立法院已經跟以前不一樣了以前民進黨黨團要負責替你們開記者會替你們說明替你們怎樣行政團隊躲在哪裡現在行政團隊不講"},{"start":233.049,"end":254.71,"text":"立法委員現在在野黨藍白加在一起是國會的多數坦白講今天預算要不要給你過喔他們細於餘念之間啦他們如果站在政治對立的立場喔你講的那個地方補助股給你過啦其他的不要給你過啦 那又怎麼樣所以你訴求的對象"},{"start":256.479,"end":266.85,"text":"以及你要講給誰聽由誰來講那怎麼樣才能夠引起社會的重視這個很重要好不好請你們行政團隊好好思考一下好 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":91,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時20分）主席，麻煩請主計長。"],["主席（林委員德福代）：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主計長早。今天為什麼要追加這麼多預算？請講個原因。"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然我們主要有幾個新增項目，還有就是當初刪減的部分……我們主要有三項，一個是原住民保留地禁伐補償的部分，其次是提升國軍待遇的部分，另外一個是加強外交執行能量，還有就是原來立法院刪減，然後影響地方，還有就是各部門施政希望能夠追加的部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：了解，這是因為確實有需要，所以要多增加這些支出。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是就這兩天的媒體看到多數的藍白立委仍然磨刀霍霍要繼續砍，如果這個沒有通過會造成什麼影響呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然有一些要做宣導的，譬如主計總處五年才辦理一次的農林普查宣導會，這一次也是被刪減掉，不過我們還是提出追加，還有包括農林普查相關的旅費也希望能夠恢復……"],["吳委員秉叡：我不是只有問主計處啦！我是說這次的追加預算八百多億如果沒有通過，或是又被大量刪減，你要怎麼處理？會造成什麼結果？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為裡面有636億是屬於補助一般縣市政府的項目，裡面也有提升國軍的待遇，還有加強外交執行能量的相關經費，這些部分都會影響到相當的權益，包括縣市的執行。"],["吳委員秉叡：我是說從這兩天的媒體我看到藍白又在那邊談他們是國會多數、哪個預算又要大幅刪減，我現在上來問你說這個如果被大幅刪減會造成什麼影響？結果你的回答蒼白無力，只會說我們不能被刪減、刪減會對施政造成影響，這就是行政院的答復嗎？你想跟我講的只有這樣嗎？你不用讓國人知道這樣的刪減會對國家造成什麼樣的影響、造成什麼樣的損害，或在施政上會造成什麼樣的危機嗎？還是我在替你們急，其實行政團隊根本不急？你的回答好像是無關緊要，只說沒通過會影響施政，就只有這樣而已。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這裡面其實有一些重要的項目，譬如像海委會有一些相關船艦的歲修，還有包括農業部治山防洪、大規模崩塌地防災的相關經費，另外還有內政部生活圈道路交通系統的建設等等，我們認為這些都是非常重要的項目，我們必須要辦理追加。"],["吳委員秉叡：非常重要卻只在這邊講，而且只講這幾句，現在的立法院已經跟以前不一樣了，以前民進黨黨團要負責替你們開記者會，替你們說明、替你們做這做那，行政團隊躲在哪裡？現在行政團隊不講，而目前在野黨藍白立法委員加在一起是國會的多數，坦白講，預算要不要給你過，繫於他們的一念之間啦！他們如果站在政治對立的立場，你講的地方補助款他們給你過，但其他的不要給你過，那又怎麼樣？所以你訴求的對象、你要講給誰聽、由誰來講、怎麼樣才能引起社會的重視，這個很重要，請你們行政團隊好好思考一下，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳亭妃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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得當不得當是 這個部分我們委員的建議我們會盡力來達成然後我們會把它公布在我們主計處對 一定要 而且每一季都要公布我認為這是給民眾一個交代因為我們是身為監督政府各機關單位好 那你就每一季都要公布好 OK來 我請衛福部那個邱太元"},{"start":182.011,"end":186.054,"text":"衛福部的邱部長 邱部長衛福部的邱部長時間暫停一下好了 來 邱部長來時間暫停"},{"start":198.41,"end":212.916,"text":"委員長那個部長我請教因為衛福部一二年度這個醫院護理服務的調查離職率以護理師的薪資呈現明顯這個互相互相關"},{"start":214.056,"end":235.113,"text":"及薪水越低而離職率越高改善護理人員薪資的條件以及提升護理人員留任的關鍵因素之一今年六月媒體報導三班的護病比首波獎勵金5.47億入帳有醫院拿到4千萬也有醫院拿到0其中因為我轄區裡面雙核醫院屬於為達標獎勵金為0的27間醫院之一"},{"start":243.4,"end":264.041,"text":"那雙核醫院當然是我選區裡面鄉親很多都會去看診本期是希望說護理師的權利要保障以免影響整個病患的一些照護那其實我一直認為這個主要最重要就是你的那個"},{"start":265.58,"end":286.782,"text":"很多該給的你們都不給那造成現在這種狀況因為部長你有沒有什麼因為急診室貼出最近急診室還貼出說本急診目前的這個負病比1比13請你簡單回答不耐久的話 甚至叫你進醫院這是很嚴重的問題"},{"start":287.082,"end":303.159,"text":"好我幾句話就好雙核醫院肩負起那個雙核融合非常重大的醫療也感謝政府跟還有我們當地委員的一個幫助讓他們承擔了很多那我們為了他的比例不過我們也有請"},{"start":305.099,"end":314.385,"text":"衛環 本縣的衛環也到那邊去視察他會在8月全部把三班護病比把它達到標護理急診的部分是因為沒有護病比但是我們人力一定讓他充足我們護理計畫 十二大計畫一定全力來支持 來推動"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":70,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時15分）謝謝主席、與會的各部會首長、各位委員同仁。是不是請陳主計長？"],["主席：請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長你好。我請教媒體宣傳費是否有必要大幅度地追加預算？因為本席是希望行政機關有義務要節省使用，尤其是媒宣費的預算，身為立法委員有義務也有責任要替人民看緊荷包。政府為了增進社會大眾對施政議題的瞭解，要辦理一些政策性業務，而有宣導之必要，但是為了避免置入式行銷，維護整個行政的中立、新聞自由以及人民權利的目的，依據預算法第六十二條之一訂定之相關規範，部分機關辦理媒體宣傳費進行宣傳、宣導，對於所制定的績效指標未能具體地衡量宣導的成效，僅以產出量作為績效的指標，如新聞或貼文的數量，活動、場次以及影片數量等，整個政策宣導影片的觀看數往往非常低，實在很難看出它的宣導成效。本席是希望行政院各部會跟主計總處要通盤檢討整個媒宣費的績效指標，不要只把錢撒給媒體，認為整個預算的執行這樣就好了，更不要拍一些乏人問津的影片，或辦理活動只有小貓兩三隻來參加。請問主計長，你是否贊成將媒宣費的績效指標及成果主動公布在主計總處網站上的專區，並按季送立法院備查，以利民眾檢視整個媒宣費的動支到底得當不得當？"],["陳主計長淑姿：關於這個部分，委員的建議我們會盡力達成，我們會把它公布在主計處的網站上，然後……"],["林委員德福：對，一定要，而且每一季都要公布，我認為這是給民眾一個交代，因為我們的職責就是要監督政府各機關單位。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員德福：那你就每一季都要公布喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，OK。"],["林委員德福：接下來請衛福部邱泰源部長。"],["主席：請衛福部邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長，我請教一下，根據衛福部112年度醫院護理服務量調查，離職率與護理師的薪資明顯呈現負相關，即薪水越低離職率越高，這已成為改善護理人員薪資條件以及提升護理人員留任的關鍵因素之一。今年6月媒體報導三班護病比達標首波獎勵金5.47億入帳，有醫院拿到4,000萬，也有醫院拿到零，我轄區內的雙和醫院屬於未達標獎勵金為零的27家醫院之一，但在我選區裡面有許多鄉親都會去雙和醫院看診。本席希望護理師的權益要保障，以免影響對於病患的照護，其實我一直認為最重要的是很多該給的你們都不給，所以才會造成現在這種狀況，請問部長你有沒有什麼解決方案？最近急診室還貼出「本急診目前護病比1：13，若不耐久候可以到附近其他急診就醫」，這是很嚴重的問題。"],["主席：請部長簡單回答。"],["邱部長泰源：我講幾句話就好，雙和醫院肩負起中和、永和非常重要的醫療業務，也感謝政府以及委員的幫助，讓他們承擔了很多。因為它的比例不夠，我們也有請本院衛環委員會到那邊去視察，它會在8月讓三班護病比全部達標。"],["林委員德福：我希望一定要達到……"],["邱部長泰源：急診的部分沒有護病比，但是人力一定要讓它充足，我們的護理人力整備十二大計畫一定全力來推動，感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請吳秉叡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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張祺凱副總召到了好 謝謝黃國昌黃總召也到了好 謝謝各位黨團的總召謝謝各位列席的官員各位工作夥伴新聞界的好朋友今天在開朝野協商之前先給柯建民總召按個讚第一個到現場謝謝柯總召也謝謝各位列席的黨團幹部很辛苦也謝謝各位列席的官員我首先先向各位來介紹今天我們列席的"},{"start":1875.779,"end":1903.93,"text":"各部會列席的官員代表財政部的阮次長 歡迎您經濟部的何次長 歡迎您衛福部的邱部長 歡迎您邱部長剪頭髮了 看得好年輕行政院總署的陳副主席長 歡迎您勞動部的陳次長 歡迎您教育部的朱次長 歡迎您法務部的謝副司長"},{"start":1905.189,"end":1930.415,"text":"歡迎您好 謝謝各位我們黨編都已經有都到了還有陸續還有其他黨面黨團的幹部也在路上但是也都有代表在現場所以我們正式開始今日的朝野協商會議我們今天要進行因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例修正案的協商要在這裡首先我們請執政黨民進黨柯總召請發言國民黨團請準備"},{"start":1937.598,"end":1937.84,"text":"笑一下"},{"start":1940.956,"end":1968.237,"text":"主席 各位內需官員 各位市長代表 大家好今天是八三結束以後我們開始展開另外一個層面的開始應該是要理性對話來追求國家的發展這是本席在這裡嚴明在先那有關於今天的特別預算的修正的重點我在這裡代表執行長稍作說明"},{"start":1969.218,"end":1988.245,"text":"本來是5450億多礦裂420億所以達到是5900億那為什麼增加這個450億這個450億是用在什麼地方呢第一個強化電力系統要礦裂200億比如說北市科等等新的產業園區"},{"start":1989.98,"end":2010.318,"text":"第二個當然就是加碼這個都是族群再多匡列40億第三個花花心情總要有一個作為費用匡列10億再下來就是說一流下一階段產業支持方案再匡列200億那這些加起來410億兩個加起來剛好是"},{"start":2015.023,"end":2035.221,"text":"是五千九百億我想這個是大家這個國家發展商應該有一個理性對話空間另外在這裡也要提出一個請求就是說上次上禮拜五朝夕時間的時候有講到說預算以外法案有關於這個貨物稅條例"},{"start":2037.463,"end":2052.17,"text":"但是呢 院長到目前為止有九個案子是協商完畢不予協商的總共有九個案子是不是等一下我們都會表格在禮拜五就一起把它通過因為這些都是沒有意見的"},{"start":2055.107,"end":2070.378,"text":"所以說我希望禮拜五該通過的預算該通過的法案都能夠通過讓我們這個會議畫下一個美好的Ending以上請各位同仁支持好 謝謝柯總召的發言"},{"start":2071.229,"end":2091.93,"text":"今天真的要幫柯總召第二個點讚溫良恭儉讓 柯總召回來了以前是溫良恭儉 從來不讓謝謝柯總召理性的發言這樣展開理性的討論跟對話我相信對未來黨團的運作院裡面的一些行政立法之間的互動都會大有幫助 謝謝柯總召接下來我們請羅志強 羅首席副書長請發言台灣民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":2095.029,"end":2119.567,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝我們兩邊黨團的幹部那其實第一個當然我覺得預算有需求這個用所當用我們也是會支持但是裡面其實有出現幾個問題我先初步點出來待會進到第二輪的部分我想請行政機關也說明一下就是說比方說舉個例子就是說"},{"start":2120.782,"end":2144.258,"text":"我們現在發現 我先講一個歷史的緣由這個台電過去在長久我們政府執政一面它都是國營事業的金雞母 盈餘都很多到2006年民進黨第一次執政的時候你就會發現台電開始由盈轉虧一直到馬政府執政之後 又讓它由虧轉盈"},{"start":2145.66,"end":2169.429,"text":"那等到馬政府卸任之後留下了828億的電價穩定基金給這個新的政府所以還有留錢給大家可是大家看這九年發生了什麼事情這九年來我們撥補了台電三千億那還有所謂的強化韌性電網的五千億這都是拿公務預算來去支應的"},{"start":2170.185,"end":2189.834,"text":"那馬政府時代我就先講那個撥補馬政府時代沒有撥補任何一毛錢給台電所以即便沒有撥補最後還留下828億的電價穩定基金這就是國民黨執政時候的一個國營事業經營效率那就產生一個問題那為什麼民進黨政府竟然要撥補3000億然後還要什麼呢還虧損了超過4500億"},{"start":2198.018,"end":2226.314,"text":"那再加上強韌電網的這個計畫五千多億它分十年期嘛那理論上這強韌電網部分當時立法院也支持啊那執行過程當中為什麼我們電網還是這麼脆弱那出現一個最根本的疑惑就是說是不是這個洞它變成某種無底洞那馬政府所做得到不用撥補還留電價穩定基金給新政府而現在卻要撥補三千億"},{"start":2228.015,"end":2251.431,"text":"還虧損四五千億這一點我覺得行政機關可能要說明清楚否則的話你在新增200億的電網這部分的話我會有點懷疑那是不是又是一個放水流的結果對我們立法院在監督預算的部分我覺得可能我們可能必須向選民做說明跟交代"},{"start":2252.301,"end":2273.067,"text":"那另外就是我也不是很懂就是說這個我們還稅漁民普發現金為什麼作業費要10億那我看以前的作業費就是在這個我們的所謂的那個疫後強化經濟及社會韌性全民共享經濟成果的特別預算裡面那他的業務費我看是3億多"},{"start":2274.81,"end":2303.04,"text":"那為什麼今天到了賴清德總統就要失憶呢那還有很多細部的問題我覺得可以先一個一個討論我們也可以先聽聽民眾黨的意見我們到轉移圈來大家來看看聽清緣由之後我們來看說怎麼樣能夠滿足我講說國人對於我們勘警政府荷包把錢用在刀口之上我們這樣的一個審查的一個基準必須向台灣人民交代 謝謝"},{"start":2303.78,"end":2329.463,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強首席副市長的說明在台灣民眾黨的說明之後要請行政部門準備說明現在請黃國昌總召請說明好 謝謝院長喔上一次在議場後方院長針對這件事情召開程序性黨團幹部彼此意見交換的時候其實我們那個時候已經有讓各個黨團以及院長報告過"},{"start":2331.195,"end":2354.657,"text":"我們對這件事情的不解、困惑跟覺得離譜至極我為什麼會這樣說這個特別條例當初行政院提出版本立法院審議三讀通過七月的時候就已經三讀了"},{"start":2357.465,"end":2385.339,"text":"幾乎都是按照行政院的版本通過的除了普發漸進以外除了普發漸進以外幾乎都是按照行政院的版本通過在行政立法彼此的互動上你們送了版本立法院三讀通過接下來該做的事情是什麼就是依照特別條例把你的預算案送來結果我們的行政院"},{"start":2386.721,"end":2414.604,"text":"在特別條例過了以後沒有編預算沒有把預算書送來然後我們的卓榮泰繼續在那邊說說普發現金違法違憲違法違憲也不敢提復議啊不是嗎然後送這一個修正草案來"},{"start":2416.254,"end":2440.05,"text":"趕鴨子上架好像在野黨的立委不趕快審不趕快照他們的意見過就是在阻擋普發一萬塊的現金怎麼會有這麼荒謬的論述啊現在民進黨政府是覺得反正我掌握了媒體我掌握了側翼要怎麼抹黑要怎麼胡說八道都沒有關係嗎"},{"start":2441.721,"end":2467.418,"text":"台灣人民會忘記是誰在阻擋發一萬塊的現金嗎台灣人民會忘記是誰說發一萬塊違法違憲嗎會忘記是誰為了這件事沒有順他的意不肯把預算送到立法院來嗎你行政院提的特別條例我立法院三讀通過"},{"start":2468.752,"end":2496.668,"text":"你不就是應該依照立法院通過的特別條例把預算送來嗎結果現在預算不送來竟然是提特別條例的修正草案什麼時候發生過這麼荒謬的事啊還是對於行政院來講反正我現在的伎倆就是你們只要不順我的意我就不送預算書來我就針對你的特別條例再送修正案"},{"start":2498.305,"end":2506.029,"text":"你不按照我的意思修正通過我不送預算書來就是在野黨在組黨普發一萬塊怎麼會有一個執政黨是用這麼傲慢這麼囂張近乎無賴的方式在面對這麼嚴肅的議題更何況當初"},{"start":2524.927,"end":2552.083,"text":"當初在面對高關稅的時候台灣民眾黨黨團的版本我們還幫行政院的版本加碼多給產業一點多給勞工一點多給農漁民一點全部都反映在我們的版本我記得很清楚啊當天表決封殺我們案子的就是民主進步黨就是執政團隊的立法院黨團"},{"start":2553.697,"end":2580.447,"text":"然後現在送一個修正案來說不夠再多給我兩百億我完全看不懂啊那你們當初在封殺台灣民眾黨的案子是在封殺什麼我們在野黨幾乎是在做執政黨的事跟你說這樣可能會不夠多給你一點 你不要你不要把我們的案子封殺掉三讀通過了以後我們作為少數黨我們也是遵照國會的遊戲規則"},{"start":2583.868,"end":2602.877,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨8票投我們的版本被封殺了我們也按照民主審議的遊戲規則就接受啦就等你們行政部門送案子來啊結果行政部門預算書不編來現在說啊 不夠我還要再多200億怎麼會有這麼荒謬的事情啊然後說普發現金"},{"start":2613.254,"end":2640.731,"text":"要多編十億來普發現金上一次普發現金的時候蘇貞昌普發現金的時候作業費多少錢行政院不知道嗎決算都出來了還是你們以為現在的立委都很不用功都不會去看過去普發現金作業費花多少錢反正我大手一揮發現金我就是要十億的作業費"},{"start":2642.011,"end":2671.018,"text":"不給我 就是在野黨在阻擋普發現金怎麼會有這麼傲慢的行政團隊啊好 謝謝喔好 謝謝台灣民眾黨團的意見表達接下來行政部門發言完畢之後我們請吳斯堯幹事長準備那先請經濟部請院長還有各位委員大家好"},{"start":2671.721,"end":2689.366,"text":"那剛剛針對國民黨團所提到的就是說這一次我們在特別預算裡面又編了這個兩百億的預算那要來支持這個我們的這個中藥產業園區的這個供電振興的這個部分我想這個部分是確實是"},{"start":2690.626,"end":2695.068,"text":"是現在我們在整個經濟發展過程裡面尤其是我們面對這個未來這個美國對等關稅的這樣的一個大環境的一個改變那我們希望讓產業在投資台灣的過程裡面他要能夠穩定供電"},{"start":2708.034,"end":2727.463,"text":"而且也要讓我們的產業園區他們的一個生產力要能夠維持持續能夠來提升一個很重要的一個一筆費用那尤其現在的這個極端氣候環境之下過去產業園區除了科學園區以外其他都是單回路"},{"start":2728.143,"end":2745.241,"text":"那所以我們這一次希望能夠用雙維路去保證這個供電的這個穩定性那這個部分是我們在這一次特別預算特別對這個產業園區供電韌性所提出來的這個部分那第二個部分就是針對剛剛這個黃委員所提到的"},{"start":2746.042,"end":2763.189,"text":"就是說我們為什麼還要再多增加這兩百億那事實上也是因為美國他們在7月31號剛宣布對台灣暫時性的這個對等關稅的稅率20%那我們跟產業界的這個座談產業界都希望政府能夠"},{"start":2764.869,"end":2785.403,"text":"這個擴大對產業的這個支持所以我們希望在關稅談判這個定案之前我們預留這200億然後作為未來政府在提供產業支持上面能夠有多一些籌碼那未來也可以用這200億元我們可以照顧更多的這個產業所以這個行政團隊這邊才提出這樣的一個預算 謝謝"},{"start":2790.106,"end":2805.185,"text":"好 謝謝經濟部的說明主計總署的代表可不可以副主席長可不可以請說明一下這個預算的問題剛剛黃國昌總召所提的請說明我是財政部好 請說財政部我來補充一下剛才"},{"start":2807.768,"end":2825.653,"text":"提到就說要增加10億元這一部分這10億元不是作業費最主要是原來編的預算是2,350億但是現在我們人口初估就是2,357萬人所以就少了7萬人7萬人就是7億"},{"start":2830.27,"end":2848.905,"text":"那其他的原來的那個多人的其他的那個3億多就那個作業費用就是比如像這個交易的手續費等等這些那個就跟112年發放的這個金額的差不多這一樣的以上好 謝謝財政部說明現在主席總署請說明"},{"start":2850.467,"end":2872.67,"text":"是 我在這邊做一個說明就是說當然立法院通過這個法律案這絕對是立法權的這個部分只是說這一次的任性特別條例所增加的這個普發現金一萬元因為它所影響的數字是達到兩千三百五十億"},{"start":2873.431,"end":2893.116,"text":"那因為這樣的一個條例的內涵它實質已經增加支出所以我們才會有這個違憲的疑慮所以我們現在就是讓它能夠合憲所以才會提出這個特別修正案來讓它能夠符合我們憲政的體制"},{"start":2898.437,"end":2912.165,"text":"謝謝主席總書的說明也跟各位黨團幹部報告一下我們台電的曾董事長也到了等下針對台電的問題第一階段我們請經濟部打訊針對台電的問題大家如果黨團幹部有問題我也會請曾董事長來回答我們現在請吳士堯幹事長請發言"},{"start":2916.41,"end":2936.759,"text":"謝謝院長召集今天的朝野協商在上週五的時候在議場的後方各黨也獲得共識也非常謝謝院長的促成各黨的同意所以才會有今天我們坐在這裡大家都有共識期待能夠為這個任性特別條例的修正案"},{"start":2937.339,"end":2957.959,"text":"我們坐下來好好來看看各黨能不能夠協調出共識所以說如果還要在講回之前說為什麼要送修正案什麼我覺得可能就會多耗費一點額外的時間但是我希望先優先針對今天在修正案的第三條第六條跟第九條的部分我們先就條文論條文"},{"start":2959.9,"end":2983.523,"text":"第一個 第三條是增加了這個本條例所規範的適用要發放給不管是停產業 不管是安定社會不管是駐弱市 不管是發現金四個面向對應於我們有哪些政策的措施項目所以原條文是十一項目"},{"start":2984.403,"end":3009.921,"text":"那新增的第三條是增加一個項目就是我們要增加對於強化電力系統的這一項所以在野黨的委員同意或不同意在條文上就是增這一項至於剛剛所說的發現金要增加多少錢因為當初是人口估錯了嘛少算7萬人嘛就少編7億嘛那個 對嘛那"},{"start":3013.123,"end":3036.469,"text":"發現金的部分的10億元也好或者是我們加碼駐弱式的40億也好或者是產業擴大支持的200億也好其實跟這些條款無涉新增的只有台電的強化電力系統200億是在這一款所以大家對於這一款有沒有意見落在條文就是討論這一條第三條的最後一項"},{"start":3037.523,"end":3046.556,"text":"第二個第六條在處理的就是跟預算面比較有相關了就是那個總額我們原本從5450億增加到5900億就會剛剛回到剛剛說的在野黨委員同不同意這個總數的增加"},{"start":3054.187,"end":3074.554,"text":"所以這個是大家可以就這個條文的部分否則也可以請在野黨委員看那你們不同意加碼到5900億因為我非常同意啊當初這個在野黨委員說希望能夠因應關稅增加對於產業的扶植所以我想行政院也回應了在野黨的這個訴求也增加編列了產業的200億"},{"start":3076.775,"end":3091.245,"text":"那總不能說參採了在野黨的意見現在還要來罵行政院說你為什麼現在又要增加這個就是回應產業的需求也是一個善意的接納在野黨委員的意見所以說在這個從5450到5900億裡頭是唯一跟預算的數字比較相關的所以等一下可以聚焦如果在野黨的委員不同意到5900億那他們是要5800億嗎還是多少可能就是在野黨委員"},{"start":3105.416,"end":3121.99,"text":"舊條文論條文這個可以提出更具體的說法第三個條文就是第九條第九條要處理的是當初立法院通過的是針對發現金的時間的限制希望在10月31號前發放完畢"},{"start":3123.231,"end":3151.563,"text":"但是行政部門回去做了檢視過去我們的政府發了一次的現金另外是三次的消費券或者是促進振興券這樣唯一一次可以參採的就是2023年蔡英文總統任內確實善用了稅計剩餘然後發放了每個人六千塊的現金所以可以參採的是這個因為發券跟發現金它的作業又不一樣"},{"start":3152.663,"end":3171.036,"text":"所以可以參採的2023的經驗我們可以看喔從立法院那時候三讀通過那個議後振興特別條例的時候通過然後編預算到完成法案三讀通過到開始可以領現金的作業時間是49天"},{"start":3173.556,"end":3199.673,"text":"所以他是有一个作业时间的那上一次因为是第一次发现金你可以说在野党委员可以质疑说49天是不是有了第一次的经验可以缩短或者是说因为他从6000块增加发放到1万块这一次可能作业期间要再拉长也有可能所以过去的经验就是至少49天所以可见在野党的委员要明定在10月31号"},{"start":3201.915,"end":3221.052,"text":"錢要發放完畢這真的執行有困難我剛說的只是啟動作業規劃可以開始領喔從法案三讀通過立法院完成通過到開始可以領現金作業時間就要49天然後上一次2023年發6000塊現金好像是給大家6個月嘛"},{"start":3221.772,"end":3237.114,"text":"因為給國人方便的時間所以這一次是不是也要給國人合宜的時間可能有的國人他在國外啦他在怎麼樣給一個合宜的時間所以從作業的時間的準備乃至於發放的時間要給民眾合宜的時間"},{"start":3238.996,"end":3259.167,"text":"相對寬裕的時間去領都不可能在第九條在野黨當初提的強制在10月31號前發放完畢如果在野黨委員這一條不調整的話很有可能發生一個狀況你時間還是10月31號真的很多人來不及領可能只發一部分而已也不一定"},{"start":3260.103,"end":3284.245,"text":"所以說為了讓發現金發好發滿作業時間充分然後民眾有充分的時間來領取也不會擠在某一個時間點那麼在第九條的部分也有調整的必要所以說我先用條文的部分來回應這都是有需要做調整的回過頭來對不起主席還沒有回過頭來"},{"start":3286.007,"end":3303.263,"text":"支持產業的預算相信大家有共識增加發現金的10億因為人口估算少算了7萬人也應當有共識然後加碼弱勢我相信在野黨也會支持那就回過來台電這個部分台電這個部分我也要非常"},{"start":3305.189,"end":3317.282,"text":"懇切的請大家能夠理解這個200億是在提高科學園區跟產業園區的供電品質尤其是北中南三大科學園區還有產業園區的強化用電"},{"start":3321.328,"end":3344.234,"text":"我来自于台北市,我绝对非常期待这一笔预算,因为士林北投科学园区是全台湾北台湾最后一块科技廊带的拼图。也是过去台北市政府从郝龙斌市长、柯文哲市长到现在蒋万安市长都期待的一个有利于产业以及地方发展的建设。"},{"start":3345.394,"end":3372.903,"text":"對於園區現在正在招商場商進駐就是要有穩定的用電更不要說現在揮達向準了希望能夠進駐北市科等一下台電可以增加說明如果這一筆預算獲得立法院的支持將可以有利於我們跟台北市政府的溝通取得設這個便電所這個相關的電力設施的期程"},{"start":3373.883,"end":3381.341,"text":"所以我是以我的選區的北市科它也不是只有台北市的需求是全台灣產業的需求想想揮達進駐台灣"},{"start":3383.706,"end":3405.846,"text":"落腳北台灣的這個產業的意義是什麼所以這200億真的請在野黨的委員這完全是扣合著因應關稅的衝擊給產業更合宜的穩定供電的需求但講回來如果在野黨委員依舊有1億的話那就是第12款要怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":3407.407,"end":3428.787,"text":"對不對所以很具體的我用條文來論述跟實際的需要來論述那至於在未來審預算的時候項目保留了總數定一個合一的總數當然執政黨是捍衛院版那未來在每一個細項是審特別預算的時候大家可以來嚴格監督合理審查"},{"start":3429.688,"end":3445.785,"text":"但是現在是在做條例所以我認為去談很細節的執行要支用哪些那都應當是特別預算的時候討論的最後一點我想我們都是要依法行政捍衛憲法的憲法70條預算法91條我們財政紀律法第三條第五條"},{"start":3451.971,"end":3475.323,"text":"針對一個財政紀律的秩序我認為捍衛這個財政體制是國會也需要看守的所以這是為什麼行政部門再送出修正案的理由我們非常懇切的需要駐產業挺弱勢護民生發現金我們需要這個特別條例可以在這個會期最後的時間來予以通過"},{"start":3476.403,"end":3503.323,"text":"好 謝謝吳司遊幹事長的發言那民進黨團兩次發言了國民黨團要不要二次發言好 請王宏威書記長發言台灣民眾黨團請準備好 那個主席還有我們行政院的官員以及我們各黨團的幹部那我想這次的修正基本上剛才黃國昌總召也特別講"},{"start":3504.224,"end":3529.187,"text":"就是說其實我們在立法院在8月1號其實總統府就已經公告我們三讀通過的這個特別條例照理說行政院應該送過來的是特別預算而不是在送特別條例那這樣子的一個程序說實在跟過去也完全這個程序完全不符"},{"start":3529.807,"end":3534.719,"text":"所以基本上 這並不尊重立法院的一個在立法的一個審查權"},{"start":3539.008,"end":3557.645,"text":"那當然我們現在基於因為現在面臨一個非常特殊跟關鍵的時刻就是我們全體的外銷產業面臨美國對等關稅的衝擊所以呢立法院其實基本上我們現在在野黨團是顧全大局"},{"start":3560.808,"end":3562.55,"text":"顧全我們受創的產業受創的勞工還有農漁民所以今天我們在這邊要協商這個特別條例照理說這個特別條例根本就是一個大違建因為它原來就有一個主體在那裡"},{"start":3579.904,"end":3603.612,"text":"我們委曲求全 為什麼委曲呢我剛才講了是為了我們廣大的外銷產業跟受影響的勞工和農漁民至於剛才我們民進黨團的吳思堯幹事長說我們因為其他修正條文並不多只有三條我想基本上在第三條的部分"},{"start":3605.993,"end":3610.279,"text":"可能最有爭議性的就是有關於強化電力系統這個部分剛才大家也都談過了因為之前的特別條例送來的時候要台電補貼1000億那個時候的特別條例已經把它刪除"},{"start":3622.316,"end":3624.257,"text":"那現在感覺是這個化整為零或者是另外變了一個名目就變成說那這樣你不給我一千億好吧你給我兩百億好了那我覺得用這樣一個討價還價巧立名目的方式去塞在這個特別條例事實上我覺得搭這種便車大可不必"},{"start":3648.604,"end":3669.36,"text":"因為當時我們就是要求台電尤其我們現在整個的行政院應該去檢討現在錯誤的能源政策那當然你們這次是用這個強韌這個電網韌性那我剛才也收到了因為我前兩天在質詢卓院長還有我們次長的時候我就說"},{"start":3670.561,"end":3677.686,"text":"在111年的時候事實上台電就有一個10年強化電網韌性的計畫這個金額高達5645億"},{"start":3687.213,"end":3714.761,"text":"那這個十年計畫後來呢這個次長告訴我現在要把它精簡成六年精簡成六年也可以啊那我們就來檢視一下也就是金額沒有減少但是呢你的時間縮短基本上我是贊成的那麼因為我們要強化電網韌性不要動不動就因為這些小動物變成因此而停電那我剛才看到一個最新的數字"},{"start":3716.516,"end":3720.04,"text":"這個強化電網韌性的計劃到今年7月底為止總計應該要有331件工程完成了107件預定的進度是32.02%他說現在實際進度又比預定進度有一點點超前"},{"start":3739.98,"end":3768.231,"text":"所以我在這邊要跟大家報告的是也就是強化電網韌性的建設計劃在台電原來就有一個10年計劃而且高達5645億這樣算下來是什麼呢算下來一年呢平均560幾億你把它縮成6年那一年呢他要執行的更高要執行的更高除此以外我們現在呢在立法院"},{"start":3769.791,"end":3784.448,"text":"應該是今天我還忘記今天還明天要審查的災後重建計畫災後重建計畫也有強化電網韌性當然你們的說法是這個部分是主要是針對災區的部分Total加起來也超過100億"},{"start":3785.929,"end":3800.224,"text":"所以我要讲的强化电网韧性不管是十年计划不管是现在重建这个灾后重建计划这个金额基本上我们也愿意支持所以你的其实金额已经非常非常的高了"},{"start":3800.945,"end":3823.943,"text":"金額非常非常高所以你在這邊再搞一個200億老實說我覺得除了要錢之外我看不出有任何的特別意義啊你台電一年到底可以執行多少億的多少億的一個強化電網韌性給了你錢其實你也沒有也沒有做得很好啊所以我要講的第一個強化電網韌性根本不缺錢我的結論就是強化電網韌性根本不缺錢"},{"start":3829.767,"end":3840.032,"text":"包含這個五千六百多億還有馬上要給你的一百億所以它不缺錢所以我們如果回復到就是比較詳細的就是針對這些條文來做修正的話那麼強化電力系統的這個部分兩百億我認為只不過是巧立明目化整為零再來要錢"},{"start":3852.057,"end":3874.855,"text":"那另外的部分呢 就是對於第六條的部分那當然這個所需的經費上限5900億它就要隨著待會兒我們對第三條的最後的修正它必須也要做一些調整那另外剛才特別有講到就是發放現金的作業費的部分"},{"start":3875.555,"end":3886.762,"text":"因為剛才是吳思耀幹事長他講說為什麼十億呢因為我們講說你就在幾年前發六千塊只要三億多作業費只要三億多怎麼會過幾年我們人口有暴增三倍嗎"},{"start":3894.369,"end":3897.31,"text":"好等一下你聽我講完嘛你聽我講完所以基本上我們的要求因為照這樣你就不應該編到作業費上啊不是很奇怪嗎人頭變作業喔那不覺得很奇怪嗎你不就是被我們抓出來然後說哎呀沒有啦因為你的作業費怎麼暴增三倍我們我們的這個消費物價有這樣飛漲三倍嗎你發六千三億多發一萬就變成"},{"start":3924.418,"end":3942.492,"text":"變成10億好你現在說作業費變成人頭了是因為這個人數增加了到時候我們就要保證你你的作業費不能夠比之前發放這個6000塊的增加對不對這樣合理吧這樣合理吧"},{"start":3945.899,"end":3950.723,"text":"沒有人口增加就是當然你這個金額我剛剛要講的所以這件我講得很清楚因為我們給錢也是要有一個原則我也不能閉著眼睛給另外一個部分比較重要了就是我們很在乎的第九條的部分"},{"start":3965.117,"end":3976.573,"text":"第九條的部分主要是方放日期因為原條例是要在十月底前完成發放十月底前完成發放當然我可以理解因為我們發放有所謂的線上的領取"},{"start":3982.561,"end":4003.512,"text":"也有實體的領取那確實我們在過去的發放的過程裡面那確實總是會有一些民眾他不是那麼快速的可能大部分比較熟悉使用網路的他可能在線上發放他就可以非常快速但有一些呢也確實他可能要到郵局那麼才能夠履起實體的實體的這個現金所以"},{"start":4010.555,"end":4033.76,"text":"我可以接受我可以接受這個發放時間要有一定的期限因為我也不希望說你10月底前完成那個領取在10月底前那10月底之前沒有來領的人他就落空了我想這也不是我們原來原來這個立法的初衷所以在這個部分我可以接受就是在這個你"},{"start":4036.08,"end":4045.346,"text":"執行的時間是在七個月七個月內我不曉得是不是所謂的七個月內發放完畢也就是到時會訂一個如果超過這個七個月是不是就不再發放這個待會兒可以幫我們再說明一下幫我們再說明一下"},{"start":4054.412,"end":4057.354,"text":"因為這個發放時間我覺得牽涉到民眾的權益問題我們除了希望能夠快速而我們也希望能夠照顧到所有的民眾並不是只有這個因為總是有一些所謂資訊落差的民眾他可能等到一段時間才知道其實他可以領這一萬塊"},{"start":4075.583,"end":4102.27,"text":"或者他現在人在國外他沒有辦法很快的來做領取我們通通都理解所以你基本上七個月內發放完畢我可以接受但是也請說明一下是不是代表這個時間點就是這個七個月後時間一到是不是就完全就是結束發放這個部分能不能幫我們來做一個說明以上 謝謝"},{"start":4104.048,"end":4129.435,"text":"那個台灣民眾黨團發言之後要請台灣電力公司的曾董事長要提出說明因為您是焦點中的焦點好幾個都提到您的問題再來要請財政部也要一併說明就是到了假設七個月之內發時間截止之後沒有在這時間領到的錢的人國民朋友可不可以繼續領取因為這個是很關鍵好 我們現在請台灣民眾黨團二次發言"},{"start":4133.546,"end":4145.83,"text":"謝謝院長針對剛剛行政院的代表所說我們這次行政院之所以沒有按照之前本院通過的特別條例授權給你們編預算案來"},{"start":4148.834,"end":4168.525,"text":"你們到目前為止預算案沒有送來採行的方式是針對這一次的特別條例再提你們的修正案來行政院說是為了要避免違憲台灣民眾黨黨團對於行政院這樣的態度跟說法完全沒有辦法接受完全沒有辦法接受"},{"start":4170.114,"end":4197.723,"text":"港民進黨黨團的代表援引憲法70條憲法70條規定立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的提議預算案 三個字這個試讀能力應該不會有問題除非是有一些綠營的側翼粉專自己善改了中華民國憲法70條的規定把預算案再加上法律案鬧成了一個大笑話"},{"start":4199.042,"end":4224.8,"text":"把自己過去所有的信譽全部都丟到垃圾桶裡面去如果不是看那個側翼粉專的內容應該不會產生這樣的誤會所以現在行政院的立場是什麼如果我把你們的針對這個特別條例的修正草案我全部都不予採納我全部都不予採納按照原來的特別條例編預算行政院認為還是違憲嗎"},{"start":4227.828,"end":4253.724,"text":"還是沒有關係只要過水了過完了這一個水即使你們所提的修正草案本院全部都否決還是就變合憲了我完全搞不懂行政院的邏輯到底是什麼是只有接受你們的修正草案才會變合憲嗎不是啊那你爭執有違憲的部分現在在你們的條文裡面修正草案的重點是什麼都要給我錢嘛"},{"start":4254.949,"end":4283.399,"text":"再多給我錢啊 再多給我450億啊你行政院要的根本就是錢嘛你就是多要450億才提這個修正草案嘛扯到本院三讀通過的法律案違憲經過你這樣修正草案丟來的就突然變合憲喔這個是什麼憲法學上高深的道理啊我完全聽不懂完全聽不懂 第二個"},{"start":4285.526,"end":4314.151,"text":"我們這個是針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費任性特別條例這個是有個特定的立法目的在處理的特別條例結果這次為了多要錢是不是像王宏威委員所講的之前要給台電的一千億被我們否決掉了以後變另外一個名目變另外一個名目再來要錢我基本上傾向的看法也是這個樣子"},{"start":4316.257,"end":4330.478,"text":"但我即使用你名目上面的藉口來看強化電網什麼北中南區科技園區這不是早就該做的事嗎這不是早就該做的事嗎還是我們的行政院"},{"start":4331.84,"end":4353.462,"text":"在沒有碰到高關稅以前北中南區的科技園區的電網強化從來沒有放在心上從來不在施政目標然後遇到高關稅衝擊的時候突然發現我們北中南區的電網好脆弱要多給我錢不給我錢我沒有辦法做如果國會敢不給我錢在野黨敢不給我錢馬上"},{"start":4355.063,"end":4374.779,"text":"今天協商結束了以後鋪天蓋地的網軍又出來了這些在野黨不顧台灣高科技的發展不顧台灣電力供應的穩定竟然連高科技園區要的電網穩定的錢都不給我們除了王宏威委員剛剛所講的10年5645億的強化電網韌性建設計畫以外"},{"start":4383.973,"end":4400.446,"text":"行政院自己不知道強化電網從什麼時候開始喊的從什麼時候開始喊的從蔡英文第一任當總統就開始喊了我記得很清楚從那時候就開始喊了那時候就開始編經費了我遠的不講109年智慧電網工程"},{"start":4408.421,"end":4413.965,"text":"48.9億110年智慧電網工程50億111年智慧電網工程86.8億111年還有15.7億112年80到90億我現在念的這些喔都不是王宏威委員剛講的10年4600多億的喔這個都是額外的喔"},{"start":4434.127,"end":4459.194,"text":"如果今天是遇到高關稅我們的政府才想到我們北中南區的智慧電網很脆弱要趕快補強 要用這個特別條例那真的是我國高科技產業的悲哀怎麼會有這麼不負責任的政府怎麼會有這麼不負責任的政府所以要用條文論條文 我們具體的"},{"start":4461.428,"end":4484.178,"text":"第三條的第十二款強化電力系統 台灣民眾黨不同意不同意的理由很簡單 早就該做 本來就做 持續在做要用這個名目來要錢 要用這個名目來要錢然後還是我們拒絕了以後 等一下綠媒 側翼 網軍全部都出來"},{"start":4485.973,"end":4514.511,"text":"所以我們要弱化台灣弱化台灣的電網跟當初說要發現金一樣說在野黨是配合中共要弱化台灣這不就當初民進黨提出來的論述嗎沈博洋當初不就是這樣講的嗎現在是行政院什麼要決定配合在野黨一起弱化台灣嗎全部都變成中共同路人嗎第三件事情增加給"},{"start":4516.978,"end":4544.188,"text":"針對高關稅的衝擊多給錢我們當初就說啦要多給啊否決的不就是你民進黨立法院黨團嗎我有記錯嗎那個表決燈立法院公報都還在啊今天知道錯了沒有關係我們從善如流那但是針對這個錢你要增加200億的部分我們認為除了企業以外勞工呢"},{"start":4545.91,"end":4553.419,"text":"農漁民呢勞工呢 農漁民呢所以針對200億的部分我們會提出附帶決議"},{"start":4554.963,"end":4576.149,"text":"因為到時候預算書你們送來了以後我們通過特別條例上面都沒有框金額在這個總金額之下符合特別條例預算你們要怎麼編就怎麼編預算編來了以後我們只能刪我們只能動我們不能增加我們也不能移項目所以在特別條例如果要增加這200億的話這200億在分配上面該給勞工的"},{"start":4582.608,"end":4611.71,"text":"改給農漁民的增加對於勞工跟農漁民的照顧我們願意用附帶決議最後一點就好也請等一下行政院代表說明一下上次在普發現金六千塊的時候我們已經花了公帑建置了一套系統了請問那套系統是用完一次就丟掉嗎還是那套系統還在上次那個系統花了多少錢能不能再用還是這次要重新發包一次"},{"start":4613.052,"end":4640.741,"text":"重新發包一次重新再做一次上次那個系統花多少錢還能不能用現在這一次是打算要再重新做一次嗎然後以及上次發六千元請問發放率總共發放的發放率有多少是百分之百全部發放嗎是百分之百全部發放嗎這個對我們在省接下來就這個特別條例的部分都有關係也請行政部門一併說明"},{"start":4643.069,"end":4649.273,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的二次說明那接下來我們請財政部針對兩個重點問題第一個是王宏威"},{"start":4650.253,"end":4671.794,"text":"我簡單的報告一下就是說第九條的發放期間這邊規定是七個月七個月到了以後就停止發放總是要一個截止日這個做法跟112年是一樣的這是第一點說明"},{"start":4672.964,"end":4697.105,"text":"第二個剛才黃委員提到的就是說上次發放的時候那些系統能不能用都還是可以用但是這邊的所需要的經費是什麼就是交易的手續費你要匯款的時候要有手續費還有自動的櫃員機ATM那個系統要重新調整"},{"start":4698.726,"end":4722.667,"text":"另外網路你要有網路的費用客服費用這些都是參考上一次發放的這個模式來編列所以基本上我們是何時來編對不起 次長您 王宏威所提的最重要的重點您還沒有回答就是假設七個月發放之後"},{"start":4723.508,"end":4737.8,"text":"沒有在這個7月領取的他有沒有資格再來領取他可能人在國外就不能再領取了因為那個系統就關了嘛OK 王威偉那你現在聽到財政部的說明就是這個訂了7個月之後沒有在這個7月領取就不得再領取了"},{"start":4739.196,"end":4761.783,"text":"沒有他現在剛剛講的就是說上一次六千塊六千塊等一下那個六千塊就是這樣做法嗎就當時領的是七個月對 就是七個月的時間就是過了這個七個月沒有領取的國民朋友就不能再領了這個問題就回答了好不好那那個系統可以繼續用財政部講得很清楚現在要請台電了那個曾董事長"},{"start":4762.603,"end":4787.93,"text":"那你現在大家都很想聽一下您怎麼說明好嗎請好那謝謝院長我把幾個狀況跟委員報告一下就是有關因為這幾年當然都是有一些行政院編列的預算給台電那給台電有很多不同的項目就看起來就很多東西在一起所以我覺得需要一點時間釐清簡單來講第一件事情行政院沒有撥補過給台電3000億"},{"start":4791.195,"end":4815.972,"text":"只有五百億 兩千五百億是增資他完全沒有辦法跟虧損相抵消所以這是第一件事這個重點 黨團幹部先暫時那個王航威署長請聽一下台電他講這個非常重要這第一件事情就是其實是經濟部多持有了台電兩千五百億的股票是增資 不是補貼我想說這個"},{"start":4817.637,"end":4819.879,"text":"是2500億所以我還低估了那你不進一步的錢不是我們的錢是你的錢唉呦 亂扯"},{"start":4837.517,"end":4858.05,"text":"我們先請曾董事長委員我這樣講我這樣說因為他不能夠他沒有辦法抵消虧損這完全是不一樣的事所以把這個疊在虧損上我覺得我這是第一個要釐清的事第二個釐清的是10年的5600億這一個預算基本上是當2022年的時候那時候正發生一個很大的電網事故"},{"start":4858.63,"end":4885.991,"text":"所以整個隆起以南隆起以南的電廠全部都跳機所以造成隆起以南幾乎全部都停電那也花了24小時左右時間把它恢復起來那之後台電就做了一個長期的規劃要把所有這個過去為了效率能夠全國就是整個台灣島人融通的這一些電網要做分隔這第一件事第二件事情是剛才各位委員一直提到"},{"start":4886.972,"end":4900.262,"text":"就台灣其實用電成長真的非常的快那主要集中在一些特定的負載區域那大概成長最快的就是科學園區所以我們另外拉了特殊的線路去科學園區避免我們民生電網受衝擊"},{"start":4902.003,"end":4919.63,"text":"那這個是花比較長的時間要做到的事所以大部分的五千六百億的工作是在做這個那另外五千六百億裡面還有另外一個重要的指向就是避免一些重要變電設施等等受到影響停跳電的所以我們把變電站室內化然後把那個我們有一些在電感上裸露的部分能夠把它給絕緣包覆掉減少停跳電的數字"},{"start":4929.033,"end":4949.362,"text":"那這停跳電的數字其實這幾年來也陸陸續續在下降我想說這是一個事情那當然十年五千六百億一年要執行平均五百多億其實是非常龐大的工程這個台電完全同意就是對我們來說我們現在有丹納斯的預算又增加了一筆錢"},{"start":4950.987,"end":4964.915,"text":"那我們要去有效的執行它我們現在都必須跟公路崗位等等去協調怎麼樣同時施工才有辦法有效的來做這樣子的工作但我要跟各位委員報告現在的狀況是這些內容並不是"},{"start":4970.533,"end":4985.633,"text":"這些內容都是因為民眾的需求或是產業的需求帶動出來的需要而不是台電說我要增加我要增加什麼樣子一些工作項目等等去額外提出來的就是真正有這些需求"},{"start":4986.774,"end":5008.389,"text":"舉個例子來講13號在這邊也是院長協商就是在講丹納斯的預算的時候那時候我們也提到說你那個80億要做要做那個沿海的下地你做的夠嗎足夠嗎我也跟各位報告說那個其實有一定程度就只能夠做最重要的地方尤其兩年半其實不到兩年半現在已經八月底了"},{"start":5009.758,"end":5029.583,"text":"二十幾個月的時間我們要把它快速執行完畢其實真的是我要做很好的界面協調那當然接下來這個額外的兩百億就是在這個特今天誰三個特別預算裡面談到的兩百億他有兩個部分一個部分是剛才講到的一些產業園區比方說他供電要擴張"},{"start":5031.463,"end":5049.08,"text":"還有一些關鍵的節點要地下化除了這個以外有69億其實是配電的就低壓系統的就是我們在一開始在規劃丹納斯的災區的時候我想各位委員都有參與那次的協調就是那個是災區的範圍我們那時候就台電來講我們想到的就是台17線台19線是西南部"},{"start":5053.888,"end":5073.967,"text":"那後來災區的範圍其實變得一花東再加上苗栗以南都進來了有些確實比較脆弱的地方我們也覺得應該要納入來做一些地下化強固的工程那東岸其實過往在東岸其實過往因為颱風都從東邊來所以大家可能不曉得就是"},{"start":5074.768,"end":5095.68,"text":"花蓮台東像台九縣等等地下化的程度其實比西岸的雲嘉南來的高因為他颱風來所以這一次連台九縣台十一縣及台十七台十九有些部分要擴張的地方我們編了69億的預算要去做這些相關的地下化的工作"},{"start":5096.34,"end":5115.84,"text":"那當然委員可以說台電用自己的自有資金來支應那這當成是一種做法這個沒有問題我覺得這預算上要怎麼樣執行這是行政部門編列預算國會來做決定那你說要台電自己去執行台電用自己的財務去執行那是另外一個狀況但我要跟院長跟各位委員報告是"},{"start":5116.772,"end":5144.392,"text":"全世界現在有很多因為新增用電等等而產生的電網投資陸陸續續都有政府在編列預算支持的工作開始出現那我們台電公司其實也收集了最近這一段時間的一些新聞包括美國 德國等等都有在做這些相關的工作那只是說這一個事情值不值得政府來支持台電那就交給大院來決定 以上報告"},{"start":5145.148,"end":5153.756,"text":"好 謝謝曾董事長的說明各位黨團幹部我想我們現在跟大家報告369第6條"},{"start":5157.697,"end":5183.584,"text":"問題不大了只有黃國昌總召提出要用附帶決議對不對 我知道 我知道不要急嘛都已經兩輪發言讓我來講講第六條基本上已經達成共識了但是台灣民眾黨團要求提出附帶決議針對這個勞工 農民的朋友這要能夠予以支持是不是這個意思好 這個問題不大了第九條那財政部也說明得非常的清楚"},{"start":5185.37,"end":5191.604,"text":"這個當年的軟體還在可以繼續使用那時間一樣是七個月三個黨團也是沒有意見對不對"},{"start":5194.232,"end":5216.745,"text":"沒有意見我先讓我做個小結論讓我們的超級協商更有效率我們第三條顯然大家都有不同的意見那曾董事長做說明等一下我會針對第三條我們大家來展開黃金十分鐘的協商但我要先確定第六條跟第九條我剛剛這樣上述講各位是不是都同意"},{"start":5219.398,"end":5232.172,"text":"我們現在就不再講其他就針對第六條 第九條第六條其實基本沒有但是它最重要的是它的那個金額那個上限因為它是會跟著第三條牽動那第九條的部分"},{"start":5235.916,"end":5239.897,"text":"因為它的發放時間其實它最牽動的是特別預算對不對 按照現在的條文它是特別預算就是公布之後的一個月內開始執行那我想請問一下如果我們在這個會期我們如果在這個會期我們把特別條例通過"},{"start":5258.444,"end":5265.454,"text":"那請問一下行政院大概你們有沒有預計什麼時候會送這個特別預算"},{"start":5270.968,"end":5295.202,"text":"讓我們了解一下不然因為很多民眾會說我什麼時候領到一萬塊什麼時候領到一萬塊現在好像變成我們在欠他一萬塊一樣對不對所以民眾要知道我們又有一個回應所以可不可以行政院能夠答覆我們一下如果我們在這個本會期結束之前那個完成特別條例那你們特別預算大概什麼時候會送來柯總召你稍微等一下我們現在針對這個"},{"start":5298.005,"end":5321.44,"text":"剛剛王洪威委員的意思非常的清楚就是590億會根據上述強化電力系統做調整如果黨團都同意當然沒有問題如果黨團不同意那這就會調整這是第一個王洪威所的重點第二個重點就是到底什麼時候主席總署才能送出來讓每一個立法委員可以面對選民的時候做一個更清楚的宣示這個等一下請主席總署說明來 黃國昌委員請"},{"start":5322.918,"end":5347.735,"text":"那個針對剛剛院長所說明的第六條的部分跟院長還有各位黨團的代表報告第六條的部分依照行政院目前所提出來的因為我們不贊成他們在裡面針對強化電力系統的部分在灌水200億所以那個金額我們會把它調低"},{"start":5348.836,"end":5360.242,"text":"所以他本來寫的是5900億我們會把他調低成5700億這個是第一個部分第二個部分這個預算編下去"},{"start":5364.182,"end":5391.574,"text":"預算編下去那接下來按照這些要幫助產業幫助勞工 幫助農漁民的實際上面執行的狀況是什麼非常的重要所以我們在第六條的部分我們增加了最後一項因為既然要談修正草案就談修正草案嘛我們在第六條的部分台灣民眾黨黨團會提出修正動議我們要求依照本條例編列預算"},{"start":5392.975,"end":5393.556,"text":"也就是本院"},{"start":5416.454,"end":5436.581,"text":"不是不負責任的通過特別條例通過預算那你錢拿去怎麼花花到什麼地方去實際的進度是什麼還是錢給你的以後拿去亂花根本執行不利這不僅僅是國會要監督一般的公民也有資的權利我們會提出這樣子的修正動議"},{"start":5437.561,"end":5452.514,"text":"請您幫忙印一下換句話說黃國昌總召所同意的就是說除了電力系統之外是同意是5700億那現在只剩下第三條就是強化電力系統這一部分那柯總召請就針對條文 請"},{"start":5454.124,"end":5481.709,"text":"好我想今天已經差不多說明到最後要有結論了那當然這個是經過條文的時候有譬如說第三條荒山委員對第12款第12款不像第12款強化電力系統他不同意見他發表那就只有兩個版本表決嘛這很清楚至於他要增加負債結益那是一回事負債結益是一回事這是第一點"},{"start":5482.609,"end":5498.914,"text":"第二點 因為第六條剛才洪商委員說要增加再一款那一款就是 我覺得那是可以的那就把它加上去就好那可能另外一項了啦另外一項 那是OK的就這樣"},{"start":5503.027,"end":5514.285,"text":"有共識 有共識現在我們休息十分鐘曾董事長您可以跟各黨團溝通 好嗎好 你盡量放電希望你能夠達到你的效果我們休息十分鐘之後我們要進來做結論 好 謝謝"},{"start":6650.103,"end":6674.836,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐我們現在會議準備繼續開始好嗎來謝謝各位列席官員謝謝各位工作同仁請坐那我嘗試性來做一下結論第三條第六條任性特別條例我們保留送院會處理第九條我們就叫協商"},{"start":6676.121,"end":6676.141,"text":"宣讀"},{"start":6691.284,"end":6720.292,"text":"寫章結論後之第九條條文第九條本條例及其特別預算施行期間自中華民國一百十四年三月十二日起至一百十六年十二月三十一日子第三條第十一款應於本條例編列之特別預算公佈後一個月內開始執行發放作業並於七個月內發放完畢行政院應於本條例生效後一個月內將以本條例編列之特別預算案送交立法院審議本條例及其特別預算施行期間屆滿得經立法院同意延長之"},{"start":6720.902,"end":6726.606,"text":"提案人 臺灣民眾黨 立法院黨團 中國國民黨 立法院黨團 宣布完畢好 請副國務卿總統 請發言我現在朝野需要的是和諧我想賴清德總統所推動的這個大罷免這一年多也已經結束了這時候大家好好來做事情"},{"start":6749.446,"end":6777.973,"text":"能夠盡量能夠盡量大家達成共識盡量達成共識但是我想剛剛院長是好意大家讓台電曾董事長再來做一個最後的溝通那我們這裡要特別強調就是說公投的結果已經出來了大概希望使用核能的人大概是反對三倍的人所以國家的能源政策如果不解決"},{"start":6779.656,"end":6803.729,"text":"我們當然了解曾董事長他對台電他的責任但是我們更有對國家對所有產業的責任今天不是兩百億的問題是整個國家能源政策再不徹底檢討的話大小永遠在這裡空轉今天兩百億明天要多少億後天要多少億我們永遠在這裡打轉都轉不出去"},{"start":6805.09,"end":6832.096,"text":"所以這個也要跟台電剛剛韓院長真的是很客氣希望再溝通一下而且要特別強調已經講了這麼多天了這麼多天了10年5645億的這個強化電網韌性的這個預算到現在沒有執行完他都可以先用嘛他都可以先用嘛不需要這個時候5000多億沒有用完又到立法院來要錢"},{"start":6834.604,"end":6858.885,"text":"我們是覺得而且上一次風災的部分從560億我們主動提供到600億也讓所有災區的這個電網能夠地下化我們也都主動的支持那我在這裡要特別特別因為我今天這個看到這個邱太元衛福部部長在這裡我們真的很感慨"},{"start":6863.226,"end":6890.302,"text":"真的很感慨啊發動大罷免 配合大罷免所有的造謠生非的人全部都留任啊所有內閣造謠生非的全部都留任然後呢這個邱太元 邱部長啊還是我們少數啊滿敬佩的而且真的為異界做了很多事情的人而且在過程當中從來沒有"},{"start":6892.769,"end":6918.345,"text":"所謂的亂造謠言什麼藍白三預算而且邱部長到任何公開場合只要任何任何黨派的立委在場他都由衷的表達感謝好 鳳總我們先回到這個沒關係因為這是同樣一件事情同樣一件事情不是你愛邱太元部長就不要說他好好不好我要說他很好因為我們不能讓"},{"start":6920.503,"end":6941.062,"text":"這個如同賴總統說的這個雜質一直留在內閣裡面然後兩品都離開了我覺得這樣子真的很不適宜我們一定要把這個事情這個邱部長 邱部長我們雖然很遺憾沒有關係28年也歡迎你回來啦好不好"},{"start":6942.597,"end":6960.451,"text":"第九條您同意嗎您現在還沒有針對我們這個協商條文表達意見同意了還有一個修正動議馬上要念基本上院長主持的我們都表同意謝謝我跟邱太元部長一樣優秀好 謝謝來我們現在念附帶決議好宣讀附帶決議"},{"start":6965.069,"end":6972.337,"text":"將條例經費上限至新台幣5450億元增加250億元提高至新台幣5700億元其中預留200億元用以強化對產業支持擴大協助範圍並滿足各產業需求並增列40億元以加強對弱勢族群之照顧及關懷服務"},{"start":6983.85,"end":6994.54,"text":"應確保所預留的200億元中不低於50億元用於勞工安定就業措施另不低於50億元用於農業與產業發展支持提案人 中國國民黨立法院黨團 臺灣民眾黨立法院黨團 宣導完畢"},{"start":6998.427,"end":7019.496,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部如果沒有意見的話我就把協商結論快速的來念一遍好嗎好 謝謝時間8月27號星期三下午2點31分我們協商主題因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例第三條第六條第九條條文修正草案協商結論一"},{"start":7020.777,"end":7038.235,"text":"照協商條文通過第九條條文如後附二保留條文送請院會進行處理第三條及第六條條文三協商通過附帶決議項如後附四院會進行處理時廣泛討論由台灣民眾黨團推派一位"},{"start":7039.298,"end":7062.412,"text":"民進黨團推派一位 國民黨團推派一位每人發言時間三分鐘 逐條討論不再發言依序進行各條文黨團版本之處理五 本次協商各黨團T均列入公報記錄本案完成三讀之後 我們不再進行三讀後之發言各黨團也不再提出複議請問各黨團幹部有異議沒有異議 麻煩請各黨團簽署 謝謝"},{"start":7069.403,"end":7088.197,"text":"另外做一個重要宣告有關本會及最後一天院會處理完成協商之後及不需協商議案部分由於我們協商結論先前已經明定最後一天只處理四個討論議案因此對於上開未及於最後一天處理的議案我們預估"},{"start":7090.319,"end":7115.888,"text":"不含發言三讀後時間要至少四個小時所以時間實在是不夠時間不夠我們就訂夏會期加開一天的院會我們專門來進行處理這些議案好不好做一個重要宣告我們要爭取一下這些都是朝野有共識的議案但是那要等到夏會期啊院長節日過我們最後一個表決"},{"start":7117.91,"end":7118.15,"text":"那如果"},{"start":7147.628,"end":7165.998,"text":"那個報告院長這些都是社會期待很久的讓我們在這個會期各黨大家都有一個更好的成果像攬財條例資安法個人資料保護法還有刑事訴訟法"},{"start":7167.819,"end":7196.44,"text":"行政區劃法公路法道路交通管理處罰條例跟停車場法這個都沒有爭議都民生議案而且大家都各黨同意都不需要再協商也都可以直接院會處理的我們讓他再成為這個研會的最後的好的成績單我們是在爭取一下因為院會時間應當夠的這都是民生的各黨有共識的當天院本部也有其他的重要的會議也都發出去了"},{"start":7197.594,"end":7212.477,"text":"再溝通好了好不好我盡量我們等會再跟我們團隊我們再來溝通好不好好那謝謝今天各位協商的黨團代表也謝謝列席的官員我們現在散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2025082628","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"163765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/324b88563d49edfba30103b32d55905718dc12f595704a3daa0a86494a3daaa4340600c8c0d0f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"13:25:35 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要拆11基再來"},{"start":227.14,"end":245.009,"text":"這邊這裡發動要給你採50倍機的風 風液碼2012年一支風液碼一支是1次2012年 之前多少我不知道可能1倍以上一支風電機一年最多只能產生600萬度電 最好啦發動那些都用風胎1次來都17級、18級你說那天"},{"start":252.653,"end":264.562,"text":"藍瑜17集報表這風雨風雨要幾乎我都承受這麼大的風太大這低頻噪音你要把它動掉嗎你要把它動掉屏東這裡我事實反對我們現在已經做東海岸"},{"start":270.846,"end":282.332,"text":"恆春半島 南迴 緩風車大聯盟我們可能 阿哥就要 要我們想要就給你委了不用啦 不用 不用因為包委 我們環評是非常嚴格審的 委議經濟部要不然隨隨便便問他那你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":287.676,"end":302.6,"text":"基本上這個五百公尺以內如果有住宅的話要環評那我們會嚴格的把關我們過去也退過非常多次例如說彰化大城還有苗栗的都有推薦明顯告訴他不能開發 不准開發我們這個風電一度一塊錢的核電你不用你去用風電一度六塊多 七塊多 八塊"},{"start":314.007,"end":327.779,"text":"智障的人也知道這是不對的白癡也知道這是不對的這樣還趕著死去做這是龐大的利益就這樣搞所以我們沒有辦法再忍受這個昨天一堆人被抓了"},{"start":330.223,"end":345.535,"text":"所以我們環境部這裡你真有擔當我再次給你肯定希望這個一定要堅持 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝清泉委員接著我們請李博義委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1278,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（13時25分）謝謝主席，我請經濟部次長、水利署署長，還有環境部部長。"],["主席：好，請環境部部長、經濟部次長，還有水利署署長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：次長，昨天的大質詢我有跟卓院長提出要求，今天的質詢是延續的，我一定要給你盯緊一點，因為東港昨天又淹水了，一個月都要淹兩次，為什麼呢？東港街上兩處舊的抽水站，一個是成功抽水站，另一個是光復抽水站，分別是在馬英九時代及陳水扁時代各設一個，現在在鎮外，也就是東港大排跟牛埔溪的交接處，那個地方沒設水閘門，所以你看變成這樣，一個月淹兩次，而且那些都是鹹水喔，因為都是鹹水，所以造成路基、地基，以及一些設施都損壞了，而且非常嚴重，院長也有答應，我現在要進一步詢問你跟水利署，因為他說會叫水利署跟經濟部去做，請問你們什麼時候可以？我自己去看過好幾次了，也會勘過，請問你們什麼時候可以正式會勘？到時候我也要去，什麼時候可以幫我們匡列預算，讓我們可以趕快動工？不然一個月被人家譙兩次，你們也會被譙到變衰啦。"],["何次長晉滄：委員，我是不是請水利署長回答？"],["林署長元鵬：謝謝委員，委員剛才提到會勘的部分，我們會配合委員的時間啦，如果要快的話，下禮拜我們就可以馬上會勘，這部分已經有一些構想，就是說，因為當初沒做水門，所以海水會倒灌，所以這部分將來水門做了之後，相信這個問題會改善很多，我們可以配合委員的時間來儘速會勘，以上說明。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，趕快安排。"],["林署長元鵬：是，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個非常非常非常重要，因為鎮內街上那兩個抽水站設置之後，幾乎就不淹水了，幾乎不會淹水，所以你現在答應我會盡快，那就趕快安排，看看可不可以儘早開工，因為這是民怨，不管誰來主政，誰都受不了的事情。好，那這樣就謝謝次長。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：繼續請教環境部部長，5分鐘而已嗎？還沒講到時間就結束了。","我要再給我們的環境部彭部長肯定一下，這是內埔老埤農場，七、八百公頃要拿來種光電，你把它擋下來，你把它退件，我要再次給你肯定。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：你會不會又偷偷的放水？如果他們又捲土重來，這個很惡劣，這個會土石流喔！。"],["彭部長啓明：對，委員，不過申請是他的權利啦，但我們會嚴格把關，也跟委員報告，嚴格把關，因為他必須還要得到農政單位的許可等等。"],["蘇委員清泉：希望這個要好好的處理，不能再這樣，人家說國破山河在，我們現在是國在山河破！這是很么壽的事情，請你一定要顧牢。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，這是我們枋山要做風電的計畫，風機打算要這樣架設，一共要架設11支。再來，花東那裡要架設58支的風機，2012年時一支風機是1.2億，現在多少錢我不知道，可能要1.8億以上了，一支風機一年最多只能產生600萬度電，最好的狀況，花東那裡常會碰到颱風，每一次來都是十七級，十八級的強風，你看那天蘭嶼十七級爆表，這些風機有辦法承受那麼大的颱風嗎？加上它會產生低頻噪音，你要給它擋住喔！你要給它擋住，屏東這裡，我們會誓死反對，我們現在已經組成東海岸、恆春半島、南迴反風車大聯盟，我們可能下個月就要租遊覽車要來包圍環境部了。"],["彭部長啓明：不用、不用啦，報告委員，我們的環評是非常嚴格審的。"],["蘇委員清泉：包圍環境部跟經濟部，不然就帶來立法院，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，500公尺以內如果有住宅的話要環評，這個我們會嚴格的把關，我們過去也退過非常多次，譬如彰化大城，還有苗栗的，都有退件，明顯告訴它不能開發、不准開發。"],["蘇委員清泉：針對風電喔，一度1塊錢的核電你不用，你去用風電是一度六塊多、七塊多到8塊，智障的人也知道這是不對的，白癡也知道這是不對的，但你們還硬要這樣做，這有龐大的利益，所以就這樣搞！我們沒有辦法再忍受這個了，昨天一堆人被抓了嘛，環境部這邊……你很有擔當，我再次給你肯定……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：希望這個一定要堅持，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","接著我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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部長辛苦了我想這個即將開學在即就是9月1號其實下個禮拜之後其實全台灣的所有的學校即將都要開學那迎接新的一個學期其實這次這個災後的校園的一個重建其實不只是硬體的一個修復啦"},{"start":50.245,"end":79.06,"text":"那是不是也能夠在整個修復的過程當中保障學生全體師生的一個安全其實也是至關重要的那但是呢根據我們這一次的這個校安的通報那總財損的部分呢是高達了有六億四千多萬但是呢這是有校安通報的其實還包含其他沒有校安通報的一個數量那我想呢在泰市全國性而且是跨行政區的那不只有在一些特定的一個縣市啦"},{"start":79.6,"end":107.306,"text":"所以我想要問的就是說有一些潛災的損害並沒有被納入所謂的考量比方說它可能是事後才會浮現所謂的災害的一個現象包含操場它可能現在當下看起來好像狀況是OK可是也許在不同的天候之後它可能也是因為這樣有一些地質上的一些改變或延遲性的一些故障那這些沒有被納入的我們之後要怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":110.471,"end":130.803,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的關心確實我們這一次各地方主要的這個南部中南部的所報的災損事實上是超過就委員所說的這個有五六億那我們已經教育部國教署裡面已經優先用這個處理全國的一個高中已經"},{"start":131.543,"end":151.749,"text":"全部都全部補助有7000多萬包括部分的中小學我們自己已經實際這個支持了有超過1億元那這一次的一個特別預算裡面災區我們在申請了一個我們是4億4億那超過的這2億多要從哪裡來做分配或是怎麼樣處理"},{"start":153.169,"end":172.527,"text":"因為我們整個所有的一個災損的統計是六億四千多萬嘛但是我們的特別預算的部分是編了四億四億是那其他的我們已經都先既有的一些經費裡面優先處理了那至於剛才委員所關心的說有一些確實有一些可能因為時間以後才一段時間以後他"},{"start":174.289,"end":182.074,"text":"突出突顯的一些問題我們也都會這個按照這個工程會跟還有教育部他可以行這個還是可以這個來提報然後我們還是會去現場這個了解然後給你支持來改善"},{"start":190.499,"end":206.579,"text":"所以現在已經都在盤點也在規劃其他的縣市因為其實這個修復其實需要時間但是因為即將又要開學因為在整個修復的人力或者是物資的投入的情況之下其實可能各個縣市都在搶都在搶工 在搶人"},{"start":209.302,"end":227.721,"text":"這個部分我們有辦法可以克服讓學生能夠盡早在學校的校園生活開學的同時能夠盡快恢復正常就是這個部分我們怎麼樣如期的運作不會影響他們的教學品質是跟我們報告確實我們確實是這樣有立即性的我們已經大概七八月都處理完"},{"start":228.181,"end":247.481,"text":"那屬於工程端的部分當然它需要一些時間那至於像學校裡面基本上它這一個開學大概都能夠正常的一個開學這一個部分我想我們在國教署教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握那偏遠學校的部分呢偏遠學校的部分呢"},{"start":247.961,"end":273.021,"text":"都一樣好 如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程可以再麻煩提供如果或者委員有看到我們有掛一錄萬是這一個也歡迎委員隨時讓把這個資料給我們來處理好 謝謝部長那接下來其實文化部的部分我可能要請教一下這個次長的部分了部長請回 謝謝好 文化部那我想延伸一下因為今天時間最後一點點的時間好"},{"start":278.976,"end":298.765,"text":"市長好委員好我想這個文化資產的一個修復也是同樣的一個道理不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史的一個建物或者是這個聚落的一個重建等等這次的風災其實也相對的嚴重那我們來看一下這個去年的例子去年不管是凱米或者是山陀鵝其實我們有四處"},{"start":299.705,"end":319.182,"text":"目前規劃是有四處 比方說像新竹的五天佑紀念碑雲林的警察局的舊宿舍群另外還有雲林的北城國小宿舍群另外還有這個屏東書院等等那看到這四件事去年的風災要重建的一個名單那目前這四件當中只有"},{"start":319.622,"end":343.553,"text":"其中一件只有屏東書院有完工那其他三個依舊是沒有辦法再加上因為我們的現實是降師嚴重不足那緊接著下來我們有很多地方的一個文物的修復喔其實有可能會在進程上會有所延宕這個部分可以簡短回答然後之後再給我書面的一些報告可以嗎"},{"start":345.167,"end":365.823,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們降師不足的現象我們現在研擬的方式是會用以修代訓的方式等於是有一個降師然後帶領一些還在學習中的進到場域裡頭去這樣可以擴大我們修復的量能"},{"start":367.004,"end":382.534,"text":"因為今天真的是時間不夠但是我相信其實不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲這個連連的問題其實都存在文化部要怎麼樣來確保在修復的工作要如期如值的完成這個部分事後再提供給我們謝謝議請委員接著我們請林業請委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1222,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（13時12分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長。"],["主席：請教育部部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，部長辛苦了。9月1號開學在即，下個禮拜之後全臺灣所有的學校即將都要開學，迎接新的一個學期，這次災後校園的重建，其實不只是硬體的修復，是不是也能夠在整個修復的過程當中，保障學生、全體師生的安全，也是至關重要的。但是根據我們這一次的校安通報，總財損的部分是高達了六億四千多萬，但這是有校安通報的，其實還包含其他沒有校安通報的數量，我想災害是全國性，而且是跨行政區的，不只有在一些特定的縣市。所以，我想要問的就是，有一些潛在的損害並沒有被納入考量，比方說它可能是事後才浮現災害的現象，像操場，可能當下看起來好像狀況是OK，可是也許在不同的天候之後，可能也會有一些地質上的改變或延遲性的一些故障，針對這些沒有被納入的，我們之後要怎麼樣來處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的關心，確實我們這一次各地方主要南部、中南部所報的災損，事實上是超過委員所說的，有五、六億，我們教育部國教署已經優先處理全國的高中，已經全部補助有七千多萬，包括部分的中小學，我們自己已經實際支持超過1億元。而這一次的特別預算裡，災區我們申請了一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是4億？"],["鄭部長英耀：4億。"],["郭委員昱晴：那超過的這個兩億多要從哪裡來做分配，或是怎麼樣處理？因為所有的災損統計是六億四千多萬，但是我們的特別預算是編了4億。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，4億。其他的我們都已經從一些既有的經費裡面優先處理了。至於剛才委員所關心的，有一些確實可能因為時間，一段時間以後……"],["郭委員昱晴：延遲性的故障……"],["鄭部長英耀：才凸顯了一些問題，我們也都會按照工程會跟教育部……他們還是可以循這一個來提報，我們還是會去現場了解，然後給予支持並改善。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以現在已經都在盤點，也在規劃其他的縣市？"],["鄭部長英耀：有，是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，其實修復需要時間……"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是因為即將要開學，整個修復人力或者是物資投入的情況之下，其實可能各個縣市都在搶工、搶人，這個部分有辦法可以克服嗎？讓學生能夠儘早在學校校園生活，在開學的同時能夠儘快恢復正常，這個部分怎麼樣如期的運作，才不會影響他們的教學品質？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，跟委員報告，我們確實是這樣，有立即性的，我們已經大概在7、8月都處理完。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["鄭部長英耀：屬於工程端的部分，當然需要一些時間，至於像學校裡面，基本上他們大概都能夠正常的開學，這個部分，我想在國教署、教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握。"],["郭委員昱晴：那偏遠學校的部分呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：都一樣。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程再麻煩提供給我，因為今天時間有限……"],["鄭部長英耀：如果委員有看到我們掛一漏萬，也歡迎委員隨時把資料給我們，我們來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。","接下來文化部的部分，我可能要請教一下次長，部長請回，謝謝。"],["主席：好，文化部。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想延伸一下，用今天最後一點點的時間。次長好。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想文化資產的修復也是同樣的道理，不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史建物，還是聚落重建等等，這次風災其實也相對的嚴重。我們來看一下去年的例子，去年不管是凱米或者是山陀兒，其實我們目前規劃有四處，比方說像新竹的吳天祐紀念碑、雲林的警察局的舊宿舍群，還有雲林的北辰國小宿舍群，另外還有屏東書院等等，這四件是去年風災要重建的名單，目前這四件當中只有其中一件，只有屏東書院完工，其他三個依舊是沒有辦法，再加上現實是匠師嚴重不足，緊接著下來有很多地方的文物修復，有可能在進程上會有所延宕，這個部分可以簡短回答，然後之後再給我書面的報告可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員關心。關於匠師不足的現象，我們現在研擬的方式是以修代訓的方式，等於是有一個匠師帶領一些還在學習中的人進到場域裡頭去，這樣可以擴大我們修復的量能。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，今天真的是時間不夠，但是我相信不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲，這個問題其實年年都存在，文化部要怎麼樣確保修復的工作要如期、如質的完成，這個部分之後再提供給我相關資料。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝昱晴委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著我們請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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國教署好 教育部部長還有國教署署長委員好"},{"start":23.773,"end":45.048,"text":"部長午安今天有兩小題要跟您請教第一個是關於這次丹納斯颱風災情嚴重剛剛很多位委員都有提到多個縣市有很多災情其中跟教育相關的是各縣市有蠻多縣市的連續停班停課多日"},{"start":45.848,"end":71.898,"text":"虽然是暑假但是很多学校都还是在上辅导课所以想跟部长跟署长讨论一个教师权益的公平性的问题今年三月教育部有一个解释令让领终点费的教学支援人员如果遇到台风天上班上课被停止的时候可以依照原来排定授课的结束弹性之领终点费"},{"start":72.678,"end":76.479,"text":"不會讓這些老師因為颱風假收入頓時減少這是一個很用意良好的解釋令只是我們發現這個解釋令沒有擴及到同樣領終點費的兼任教師跟待課教師"},{"start":91.004,"end":107.814,"text":"那他們呢就會因為颱風架尤其是連續颱風架領不到這個薪水這個部分的薪水那其實就造成一個教育現場有不同的終點費同一個颱風天那是很不公平的狀況所以我第一個部分很簡單下一頁請問部長"},{"start":110.515,"end":131.003,"text":"那教师终点费的知己是不是可以在校园中有同样的标准不要因为兼任代课教师他的身份使得同样是台风架那他就完全没有收入可以领这个部分是不是那我也有用预算案来提出不知道部长是不是可以就今天承诺呢"},{"start":131.616,"end":155.439,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心我們這些第一線上的這些老師因為天災或者一些其他不可抗擊的因素的一些前意上我想這個我覺得委員所提的是合理的基本上我們樂觀其成也希望能夠跟地方政府能夠建立有一個共識能夠希望對老師因為來自於"},{"start":156.88,"end":186.096,"text":"天然在不可抗拒的对他的许多的授课上这个权益上的一些这可能的一些影响谢谢部长那唯有预算案我们就一起处理谢谢您的承诺好那再来呢也是跟一个教师权有关的下一页那我想部长应该知道我一直关心代理教师的问题因为代理教师如果没有被照顾到那他们等于很可能就是未来的教师流失之后对我们教育现场非常的不好"},{"start":186.756,"end":203.807,"text":"那本周一就是8月25号教育部有发一个新闻稿回应媒体就是媒体报道说全国目前有2600个教师职缺的问题那教育部的新闻稿说缺额没有那么多那实质上是你们说是1429位"},{"start":217.196,"end":231.909,"text":"新聞稿寫得很好很有道理但是我要提醒的是這一個月來在大法官釋憲之後代理教師原本就依照年資可以採取血腥制度這個制度上路以來"},{"start":232.589,"end":250.039,"text":"基層教師蓄心爭議頻傳可是國教署一直沒有處理我認為這個新聞稿跟實質上國教署的我們看到的行為好像沒有在處理誘因因為你今天讓代理教師沒有一個公平的制度蓄心"},{"start":251.139,"end":267.904,"text":"當不下去了你反而就流失了未來的正職老師權益保障很重要我們來看一下我辦公室接到多少成錢有這些狀況明明你們的虛心辦法說跨縣市代理私校年資都被採記可是他們都被拒絕"},{"start":268.624,"end":268.664,"text":"還有呢"},{"start":288.585,"end":304.306,"text":"就是當年沒有成績優良證明就變成不予採記那你們的辦法說幼兒園研資也是可是基層的人士不知道為什麼都看不到你們的公文完全拒絕他們那我要講的事情是為什麼我今天要來質詢夏業"},{"start":306.567,"end":332.969,"text":"如果我的辦公室詢問你們可以解決的話我今天就不用再提出來了我們辦公室詢問你們國教署是不是發一個統一說明認定基準譬如有個案例事宜嘛 案例事宜結果你們的回答是說提敘相關制度已施行多年因不深認定爭議這麼多爭議了你們說沒有認定爭議我們辦公室詢問說現在有大量認定爭議是否有減變的申訴機制"},{"start":334.87,"end":356.927,"text":"你們回給我們的文說請依教師法申訴程序申訴或者是還鼓勵他們找教師會或行政單位溝通那我覺得這樣子會讓大家感受到跟你們的新聞稿不一致你都要地方政府對他們友善了可是國教署明明可以統一發文函釋案例示意的卻沒有做那是不是"},{"start":357.728,"end":379.39,"text":"就三个诉求第一个尽速发函制作案例事宜不要让基层的老师无所适从第二个能不能有一个快速有效的申诉窗口第三个是不是严密评估代理教师有一个统一的年资提报系统那这三个是不是能够有些可以直接做到的有些评估的一个月内给本席书面报告好不好"},{"start":380.441,"end":401.652,"text":"好 最後一步提供書面報告謝謝委員的關心我想委員所關心的都是非常合理事實上我最近也在星期一也在板橋跟以北部的這些老師這個基層老師座談我接著還會在中部 南部跟離島的老師座談我希望"},{"start":402.833,"end":417.749,"text":"第一線上的老師的許多的權益包括許多的可能給教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持一個合理的專業讓他能夠展現專業好好的在人才培養謝謝部長也請國教署長督導一下不要這麼的官僚式的回應行政的部我們來進行書面給歡迎委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1183,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時59分）感謝召委，有請教育部鄭部長跟國教署彭署長。"],["主席：教育部部長還有國教署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安。今天有兩小題要跟您請教，第一個是關於這次丹娜斯颱風災情嚴重，剛剛很多位委員都有提到多個縣市有很多災情，其中跟教育相關的是，有蠻多縣市連續停班、停課多日，雖然是暑假，但是很多學校都還在上輔導課，所以想跟部長及署長討論一個教師權益公平性的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：今年3月教育部有一個解釋令，讓領鐘點費的教學支援人員如果遇到颱風天而上班、上課被停止的時候，可以依照原來排定授課的節數彈性支領鐘點費，不會讓這些老師因為颱風假而收入頓時減少。這是一個用意良好的解釋令，只是我們發現這個解釋令沒有擴及到同樣領鐘點費的兼任教師跟代課教師，他們就會因為颱風假，尤其是連續颱風假而領不到這個部分的薪水，其實就造成教育現場在同一個颱風天有不同的鐘點費，那是很不公平的狀況。我第一個部分很簡單，請問部長，教師鐘點費的支給是不是可以在校園中有同樣的標準呢？不要因為是兼任、代課教師的身分，使得同樣是颱風假，但他就完全沒有收入可以領，這個部分我也有用預算案提出，不知道部長是不是可以在今天承諾呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心這些第一線老師因為天災或者其他不可抗拒因素而影響到權益，我覺得委員所提的是合理的，基本上我們樂觀其成，也希望跟地方政府能夠建立共識，老師因為天然災害或不可抗拒的因素，對他的授課上會有權益上的一些影響，給予……"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，我也有預算案，我們就一起處理，謝謝您的承諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：再來也是跟教師權益有關的，我想部長應該知道我一直關心代理教師的問題，因為代理教師如果沒有被照顧到，很可能就是未來教師流失之後，對我們的教育現場非常不好。本周一8月25號教育部有發一個新聞稿回應媒體，媒體報導全國目前有2,600個教師職缺的問題，教育部的新聞稿表示缺額沒有那麼多，你們說是1,429位，而且也請各地方政府要建立代理教師聘任的誘因機制，提升這些老師的教學意願。新聞稿寫得很好、很有道理，但我要提醒的是，這一個月來，在大法官釋憲之後，代理教師原本就依照年資可以採取敘薪制度，這制度上路以來，基層教師敘薪爭議頻傳，可是國教署一直沒有處理，我認為這個新聞稿跟實質上我們看到的行為，國教署好像沒有在處理誘因，因為你們讓代理教師沒有一個公平的敘薪制度，他就當不下去了，你們反而就流失了未來的正職老師，所以權益保障很重要。","我們來看一下我辦公室接到多少陳情有這些狀況，明明你們的敘薪辦法是跨縣市代理、私校年資都被採計，可是他們都被拒絕；年資證明標準不一，要他繳交離職證明、服務成績優良證明後，還要繳交考評會紀錄，這根本不是當年離開的代理教師有辦法拿到的資料；還有一些學校廢校、停辦，無法取得證明，你們說可以去找地方教育局，教育局也沒有協助；當年沒有成績優良證明就變成不予採計；你們的辦法是幼兒園年資也是，可是基層人士不知道為什麼都看不到你們的公文，完全拒絕他們。","我要講的事情是，為什麼我今天要來質詢？如果我的辦公室詢問你們可以解決的話，我今天就不用再提出來了，我們辦公室詢問國教署是不是發一個統一說明認定基準，譬如有個案例釋疑，結果你們的回答是，提敘相關制度已施行多年，應不生認定爭議。這麼多爭議了，你們說沒有認定爭議。我們辦公室詢問現在有大量認定爭議，是否有簡便的申訴機制，你們回給我們的文是，請依教師法申訴程序申訴，或者是鼓勵他們找教師會或行政單位溝通，我覺得這樣子會讓大家感受到跟你們的新聞稿不一致，你都要地方政府對他們友善了，可是國教署明明可以統一發文函釋、案例釋疑的，卻沒有做。","我有三個訴求：第一個，儘速發函製作案例釋疑，不要讓基層的老師無所適從。第二個，能不能有一個快速有效的申訴窗口？第三個，是不是研議、評估，讓代理教師有一個統一的年資提報系統？這三個是不是有些是可以直接做到的，而有些要評估？一個月內給本席書面報告，好不好？"],["主席：好，請教育部提供書面報告，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我想委員所關心的，都是非常合理的。事實上，我星期一也在板橋跟北部的這些基層老師座談，我接著還會在中部、南部跟離島的老師座談，我希望把第一線老師的許多權益，包括教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持、一個合理的支持，讓他們能夠展現專業，好好地在人才培育……"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，也請國教署長督導一下，不要這麼官僚式的回應，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：行政的部分我們來精進，謝謝委員提醒。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長跟署長，請你們提供書面給范雲委員。","接著請王世堅委員質詢，王世堅，王世堅委員不在。","郭昱晴，郭昱晴委員……對不起，請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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這個會土石流喔委員他申請是他的權利啦那我們會嚴格把關也跟委員報告嚴格把關他必須還要得到農政單位的許可等等"},{"start":201.272,"end":214.421,"text":"希望這個要好好的不能再這樣人家說國破山河債我們現在是國債山河破這是很要事的事情好 你就要顧到來 再來這是我們榜山要做風電要做風電 要拆這樣 要拆11基再來"},{"start":232.152,"end":250.056,"text":"這邊這裡發動要給你採50倍機的風 風液碼2012年一支風液碼一支是1次2012年 之前多少我不知道可能1倍以上一支風電機一年最多只能產生600萬度電 最好了發動那些都用風胎1次來都17級 10倍級你看那天"},{"start":257.678,"end":269.591,"text":"藍瑜17集報表這風雨風雨要幾乎我都承受這麼大的風太嘛這低頻噪音你要把它動掉嗎你要把它動掉啊屏東這裡我事實反對我們現在已經走東海岸"},{"start":275.878,"end":285.904,"text":"恆春半島 南回緩風車大聯盟我們可能 阿哥就要 因為我們車子要給你換不用 不用 不用報告委員 我們環評是非常嚴格審的 不用經濟部如果沒有 隨隨便便給我們你會看到是怎樣"},{"start":292.709,"end":307.779,"text":"基本上這個五百公尺以內如果有住宅的話要環評那我們會嚴格的把關我們過去也退過非常多次例如說彰化大城還有苗栗的都有推薦明顯告訴他不能開發 不准開發我們這個風電一度一塊錢的核電你不用你去用風電一度六塊多 七塊多到八塊"},{"start":319.041,"end":332.768,"text":"智障的人也知道這是不對的白癡也知道這是不對的這樣還趕著死去做這是龐大的利益就這樣搞所以我們沒有辦法再忍受這個昨天一堆人被抓了所以我們環境部這裡你真有擔當我再次給你肯定希望這個一定要堅持 好不好好 謝謝好 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在搶人"},{"start":212.285,"end":230.701,"text":"這個部分我們有辦法可以克服讓學生能夠盡早在學校的校園生活開學的同時能夠盡快恢復正常就是這個部分我們怎麼樣如期的運作不會影響他們的教學品質是跟我們報告確實我們確實是這樣有立即性的我們已經大概七八月都處理完"},{"start":231.161,"end":250.448,"text":"那屬於工程端的部分當然他需要一些時間那至於像學校裡面基本上他這一個開學大概都能夠正常的一個開學這一個部分我想我們在國教署教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握那偏遠學校的部分呢偏遠學校的部分呢"},{"start":250.948,"end":276.008,"text":"都一樣好 如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程可以再麻煩提供如果或者委員有看到我們有掛一落萬是這一個也歡迎委員隨時讓把這個資料給我們來處理好 謝謝部長那接下來其實文化部的部分我可能要請教一下這個次長的部分了部長請回 謝謝好 文化部那我想延伸一下因為今天時間最後一點點的時間好"},{"start":281.963,"end":301.754,"text":"市長好委員好我想這個文化資產的一個修復也是同樣的一個道理不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史的一個建物或者是這個聚落的一個重建等等這次的風災其實也相對的嚴重那我們來看一下這個去年的例子去年不管是凱米或者是山陀鵝其實我們有四處"},{"start":302.694,"end":322.169,"text":"目前規劃是有四處比方說像新竹的五天幼紀念碑雲林的警察局的救助社群另外還有雲林的北城國小宿舍群另外還有這個屏東書院等等那看到這事件是去年的風災要重建的一個名單那目前這事件當中只有"},{"start":322.609,"end":346.539,"text":"其中一件只有屏東書院有完工那其他三個依舊是沒有辦法再加上因為我們的現實是降師嚴重不足那緊接著下來我們有很多地方的一個文物的修復喔其實有可能會在進程上會有所延宕這個部分可以簡短回答然後之後再給我書面的一些報告可以嗎"},{"start":348.154,"end":368.81,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們降師不足的這個現象我們現在研擬的方式是會用以修代訓的方式等於是有一個降師然後帶領一些還在學習中的進到場域裡頭去這樣可以擴大我們修復的一個量能"},{"start":369.33,"end":385.565,"text":"是因為今天真的是時間不夠但是我相信其實不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲這個連連的問題其實都存在文化部要怎麼樣來確保在修復的工作要如期如值的完成這個部分事後再提供給我們謝謝醫情委員接著我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1222,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（13時12分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長。"],["主席：請教育部部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，部長辛苦了。9月1號開學在即，下個禮拜之後全臺灣所有的學校即將都要開學，迎接新的一個學期，這次災後校園的重建，其實不只是硬體的修復，是不是也能夠在整個修復的過程當中，保障學生、全體師生的安全，也是至關重要的。但是根據我們這一次的校安通報，總財損的部分是高達了六億四千多萬，但這是有校安通報的，其實還包含其他沒有校安通報的數量，我想災害是全國性，而且是跨行政區的，不只有在一些特定的縣市。所以，我想要問的就是，有一些潛在的損害並沒有被納入考量，比方說它可能是事後才浮現災害的現象，像操場，可能當下看起來好像狀況是OK，可是也許在不同的天候之後，可能也會有一些地質上的改變或延遲性的一些故障，針對這些沒有被納入的，我們之後要怎麼樣來處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的關心，確實我們這一次各地方主要南部、中南部所報的災損，事實上是超過委員所說的，有五、六億，我們教育部國教署已經優先處理全國的高中，已經全部補助有七千多萬，包括部分的中小學，我們自己已經實際支持超過1億元。而這一次的特別預算裡，災區我們申請了一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是4億？"],["鄭部長英耀：4億。"],["郭委員昱晴：那超過的這個兩億多要從哪裡來做分配，或是怎麼樣處理？因為所有的災損統計是六億四千多萬，但是我們的特別預算是編了4億。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，4億。其他的我們都已經從一些既有的經費裡面優先處理了。至於剛才委員所關心的，有一些確實可能因為時間，一段時間以後……"],["郭委員昱晴：延遲性的故障……"],["鄭部長英耀：才凸顯了一些問題，我們也都會按照工程會跟教育部……他們還是可以循這一個來提報，我們還是會去現場了解，然後給予支持並改善。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以現在已經都在盤點，也在規劃其他的縣市？"],["鄭部長英耀：有，是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，其實修復需要時間……"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是因為即將要開學，整個修復人力或者是物資投入的情況之下，其實可能各個縣市都在搶工、搶人，這個部分有辦法可以克服嗎？讓學生能夠儘早在學校校園生活，在開學的同時能夠儘快恢復正常，這個部分怎麼樣如期的運作，才不會影響他們的教學品質？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，跟委員報告，我們確實是這樣，有立即性的，我們已經大概在7、8月都處理完。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["鄭部長英耀：屬於工程端的部分，當然需要一些時間，至於像學校裡面，基本上他們大概都能夠正常的開學，這個部分，我想在國教署、教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握。"],["郭委員昱晴：那偏遠學校的部分呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：都一樣。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程再麻煩提供給我，因為今天時間有限……"],["鄭部長英耀：如果委員有看到我們掛一漏萬，也歡迎委員隨時把資料給我們，我們來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。","接下來文化部的部分，我可能要請教一下次長，部長請回，謝謝。"],["主席：好，文化部。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想延伸一下，用今天最後一點點的時間。次長好。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想文化資產的修復也是同樣的道理，不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史建物，還是聚落重建等等，這次風災其實也相對的嚴重。我們來看一下去年的例子，去年不管是凱米或者是山陀兒，其實我們目前規劃有四處，比方說像新竹的吳天祐紀念碑、雲林的警察局的舊宿舍群，還有雲林的北辰國小宿舍群，另外還有屏東書院等等，這四件是去年風災要重建的名單，目前這四件當中只有其中一件，只有屏東書院完工，其他三個依舊是沒有辦法，再加上現實是匠師嚴重不足，緊接著下來有很多地方的文物修復，有可能在進程上會有所延宕，這個部分可以簡短回答，然後之後再給我書面的報告可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員關心。關於匠師不足的現象，我們現在研擬的方式是以修代訓的方式，等於是有一個匠師帶領一些還在學習中的人進到場域裡頭去，這樣可以擴大我們修復的量能。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，今天真的是時間不夠，但是我相信不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲，這個問題其實年年都存在，文化部要怎麼樣確保修復的工作要如期、如質的完成，這個部分之後再提供給我相關資料。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝昱晴委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著我們請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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最後一步提供書面報告謝謝委員的關心我想委員所關心的都是非常合理事實上我最近也在星期一也在板橋跟以北部的這些老師這一個基層老師座談我接著還會在中部 南部跟離島的老師座談我希望"},{"start":411.877,"end":426.508,"text":"第一線上的老師的許多的權益包括許多的可能給教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持一個合理的一個專業讓他能夠展現專業好好的在人才培養也請國教署長督導一下不要這麼的官僚式的回應行政的部我們來進行謝謝委員謝謝委員提醒"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1183,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時59分）感謝召委，有請教育部鄭部長跟國教署彭署長。"],["主席：教育部部長還有國教署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安。今天有兩小題要跟您請教，第一個是關於這次丹娜斯颱風災情嚴重，剛剛很多位委員都有提到多個縣市有很多災情，其中跟教育相關的是，有蠻多縣市連續停班、停課多日，雖然是暑假，但是很多學校都還在上輔導課，所以想跟部長及署長討論一個教師權益公平性的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：今年3月教育部有一個解釋令，讓領鐘點費的教學支援人員如果遇到颱風天而上班、上課被停止的時候，可以依照原來排定授課的節數彈性支領鐘點費，不會讓這些老師因為颱風假而收入頓時減少。這是一個用意良好的解釋令，只是我們發現這個解釋令沒有擴及到同樣領鐘點費的兼任教師跟代課教師，他們就會因為颱風假，尤其是連續颱風假而領不到這個部分的薪水，其實就造成教育現場在同一個颱風天有不同的鐘點費，那是很不公平的狀況。我第一個部分很簡單，請問部長，教師鐘點費的支給是不是可以在校園中有同樣的標準呢？不要因為是兼任、代課教師的身分，使得同樣是颱風假，但他就完全沒有收入可以領，這個部分我也有用預算案提出，不知道部長是不是可以在今天承諾呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心這些第一線老師因為天災或者其他不可抗拒因素而影響到權益，我覺得委員所提的是合理的，基本上我們樂觀其成，也希望跟地方政府能夠建立共識，老師因為天然災害或不可抗拒的因素，對他的授課上會有權益上的一些影響，給予……"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，我也有預算案，我們就一起處理，謝謝您的承諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：再來也是跟教師權益有關的，我想部長應該知道我一直關心代理教師的問題，因為代理教師如果沒有被照顧到，很可能就是未來教師流失之後，對我們的教育現場非常不好。本周一8月25號教育部有發一個新聞稿回應媒體，媒體報導全國目前有2,600個教師職缺的問題，教育部的新聞稿表示缺額沒有那麼多，你們說是1,429位，而且也請各地方政府要建立代理教師聘任的誘因機制，提升這些老師的教學意願。新聞稿寫得很好、很有道理，但我要提醒的是，這一個月來，在大法官釋憲之後，代理教師原本就依照年資可以採取敘薪制度，這制度上路以來，基層教師敘薪爭議頻傳，可是國教署一直沒有處理，我認為這個新聞稿跟實質上我們看到的行為，國教署好像沒有在處理誘因，因為你們讓代理教師沒有一個公平的敘薪制度，他就當不下去了，你們反而就流失了未來的正職老師，所以權益保障很重要。","我們來看一下我辦公室接到多少陳情有這些狀況，明明你們的敘薪辦法是跨縣市代理、私校年資都被採計，可是他們都被拒絕；年資證明標準不一，要他繳交離職證明、服務成績優良證明後，還要繳交考評會紀錄，這根本不是當年離開的代理教師有辦法拿到的資料；還有一些學校廢校、停辦，無法取得證明，你們說可以去找地方教育局，教育局也沒有協助；當年沒有成績優良證明就變成不予採計；你們的辦法是幼兒園年資也是，可是基層人士不知道為什麼都看不到你們的公文，完全拒絕他們。","我要講的事情是，為什麼我今天要來質詢？如果我的辦公室詢問你們可以解決的話，我今天就不用再提出來了，我們辦公室詢問國教署是不是發一個統一說明認定基準，譬如有個案例釋疑，結果你們的回答是，提敘相關制度已施行多年，應不生認定爭議。這麼多爭議了，你們說沒有認定爭議。我們辦公室詢問現在有大量認定爭議，是否有簡便的申訴機制，你們回給我們的文是，請依教師法申訴程序申訴，或者是鼓勵他們找教師會或行政單位溝通，我覺得這樣子會讓大家感受到跟你們的新聞稿不一致，你都要地方政府對他們友善了，可是國教署明明可以統一發文函釋、案例釋疑的，卻沒有做。","我有三個訴求：第一個，儘速發函製作案例釋疑，不要讓基層的老師無所適從。第二個，能不能有一個快速有效的申訴窗口？第三個，是不是研議、評估，讓代理教師有一個統一的年資提報系統？這三個是不是有些是可以直接做到的，而有些要評估？一個月內給本席書面報告，好不好？"],["主席：好，請教育部提供書面報告，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我想委員所關心的，都是非常合理的。事實上，我星期一也在板橋跟北部的這些基層老師座談，我接著還會在中部、南部跟離島的老師座談，我希望把第一線老師的許多權益，包括教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持、一個合理的支持，讓他們能夠展現專業，好好地在人才培育……"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，也請國教署長督導一下，不要這麼官僚式的回應，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：行政的部分我們來精進，謝謝委員提醒。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長跟署長，請你們提供書面給范雲委員。","接著請王世堅委員質詢，王世堅，王世堅委員不在。","郭昱晴，郭昱晴委員……對不起，請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席那彭部長不想回去 彭部長就再回來吧好 那個環境部部長部長"},{"start":10.504,"end":34.284,"text":"當然是颱風造成中南部地區的石棉瓦大量的這樣的一個損毀嘛那我們在特別預算裡邊的7億多要做清運 不含處理喔 對不對就清運 就要花7億嘛 是不是這樣那環境部的統計全台目前監測到的這個屬於這個石棉瓦在屋頂上的應該將近有50萬噸50萬噸 24萬噸"},{"start":38.007,"end":38.628,"text":"20多萬噸 50萬噸嘛這是環境部的相關資料"},{"start":45.831,"end":74.316,"text":"本縣啦 在我的母縣是55,991公噸然後從兩年前一直到目前為止才清除980幾噸等於不到1乘7啦不到1乘7那我們面對石冰瓦的這個狀況要去處理最主要它是世界衛生組織公認的一級的致癌物沒有錯嘛 對不對那也從小英就任的第二年開始"},{"start":75.416,"end":91.199,"text":"等於在107年我們開始有政策要來處理這些石棉瓦那到現在已經114年已經過了7年時間能不能簡單說明一下總共50萬噸我們清理了幾噸包含處理大概15000多噸15000多噸算過來應該不到兩成多那你們預期的目標要把這50萬噸可以處理到結束"},{"start":103.339,"end":132.731,"text":"要分幾年要多少預算大概要兩百億啦那也報告委員因為有損壞的石棉瓦才對健康有害那我們認為現在政府的預算壓力非常的大所以我們認為是說有需要的我們政府就會來做補助所以過去每年大概有兩三億的費用來進行這樣損壞的石棉瓦才算是有害沒有損壞的石棉瓦就不會有害對 等到需要拆除的時候就一併拆除這樣"},{"start":133.811,"end":160.616,"text":"這個是後面的事情嘛那就從你對外8月25號環境部有對外說完整的石梅瓦基本上是無害的道理是一樣嘛是一致嘛但是石梅瓦經過風吹日曬可能會龜裂可能會出現有這個缺角這個都不會造成有害這個也算是在完全的石梅瓦深度無法嗎可以這麼認定嗎"},{"start":162.217,"end":171.313,"text":"對 包委員大概就是說不是 不是 不是 對不起你回答我對人家的句話是是缺角歸類的算是完整的這個屋頂的石棉瓦嗎"},{"start":172.582,"end":190.217,"text":"對 只要有裂掉或是漏水那歸裂 那個都算是有損害有損害嘛 那個就算有損害嘛 對不對對 那照理講現在我們去TEST我們去了解的掌握情況之下像這樣的狀況 佔你的50萬噸的比例是多少你有做這樣的掌握嗎"},{"start":192.099,"end":209.461,"text":"因為我們這次風災現在無人機正在飛一天大概可以飛170公頃左右針對台南嘉義的地區雲林我們預計未來也會再飛目前我們現在重新再算因為現在是逐步的淘汰假設沒有損害是逐步淘汰假設沒有損害對不對"},{"start":210.362,"end":234.403,"text":"但是你們的定義裡面就是說如果現在屋頂看起來是好好的但也沒有去看它是不是有龜裂也沒有去看它是缺角那我們還是認定它是完美的 完整的這個市面屋啊所以就不優先處理嘛就不優先 在這次不優先處理部長你講這句話你應該是一個很精準做事情非常積極的一個部長這樣講話是不夠精準這樣是會有問題的啦對不對"},{"start":236.665,"end":260.745,"text":"難道你一定要等到有像這樣當作是颱風造成整個屋頂被吹翻了我們才去做後續的清理動作這緩不濟急啊或許會為死而完啊不應該是這麼處理嘛而且你的定義喔你的定義叫做完整的失眠屋瓦並無危害環境部持續宣導妥善處理嚴格稽查任意棄置這是你們講的 八月二十二號講的嘛對不對"},{"start":262.006,"end":276.102,"text":"對啊我剛剛講的你怎麼去認定那個屋頂沒有歸列那個屋頂沒有缺角只要歸列缺角就說你部長你剛剛所講的他就不是一個完整的這個死免的屋瓦嘛對不對沒錯沒錯那要不要處理對要處理要處理嘛啊怎麼處理"},{"start":277.243,"end":292.483,"text":"基本上每一個縣市環保局他們都有一些清運的量那你可以跟他去做申請那基本上清運的費用就是我們政府會來...我知道 部長但是如果照剛剛我依照雲林縣的案例講給你聽坦白講啦這100年都沒辦法處理完啦"},{"start":296.288,"end":316.248,"text":"全50萬噸在你部長可能不曉得要放幾噸之後還是一樣沒辦法處理完成那如果是這個情況之下我們中南部的百姓每天生命頂著世界衛生組織公認的一起出來那環境部立場是什麼環境部的基於做的是什麼"},{"start":317.878,"end":336.885,"text":"環境部目前只負責清運跟末端的處理那其他各部會包含教育部有學校的停車場包含經濟部管的工廠包含農業部管的畜牧業的這些廠房很多的時空卡早已歸類缺角要不要處理"},{"start":339.072,"end":349.718,"text":"這個大家都要來編列相關的經費來做拆除還有很多的民航難道要等到這次颱風吹了一堆火土的時候才要積極的面對處理嗎"},{"start":351.533,"end":365.761,"text":"所以我要求部長跟財政部因為房屋稅財政部跟地方要去做溝通內政部針對民房經濟部針對工廠農業部針對畜牧的廠房再來教育部針對學校的這些停車場去檢查到底有沒有歸類到底有沒有缺角是不是完整無壞的司法部長你才可以去講這些話不然這種話講出來你會傷到"},{"start":378.393,"end":380.316,"text":"一個月內一個星期內召集一個月內提出解決之道 可以嗎好 我們來試看看好 謝謝謝謝建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1463,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時56分）謝謝主席。彭部長不想回去，彭部長就再回來吧！"],["主席：請環境部部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長，丹娜絲颱風造成中南部地區的石綿瓦大量損毀，我們在特別預算裡編了七億多要做清運，不含處理喔！光清運就要花7億，是不是這樣？"],["彭部長啓明：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：環境部統計全臺目前監測到在屋頂上的石綿瓦應該將近有50萬噸。"],["彭部長啓明：50萬噸、24萬棟。"],["劉委員建國：50萬噸分布在二十多萬棟，這是環境部相關資料。在本縣我的母縣是5萬5,991公噸，從兩年前一直到目前為止，才清除九百八十幾噸，等於不到一成七！我們面對石綿瓦的狀況要去處理，最主要因為它是世界衛生組織公認的一級致癌物，沒有錯嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：從小英就任的第二年開始，等於在107年，我們開始有政策要處理這些石綿瓦，到現在114年，已經過了7年時間，能不能簡單說明一下，總共50萬噸，你們清理了幾噸？包含處理。"],["彭部長啓明：大概一萬五千多噸。"],["劉委員建國：一萬五千多噸算下來應該不到兩成多。"],["彭部長啓明：對，應該不到兩成，一成左右。"],["劉委員建國：你們預期的目標，把這50萬噸處理到結束，要分幾年？要多少預算？"],["彭部長啓明：大概要200億，也報告委員，因為有損壞的石綿瓦才對健康有害，現在政府的預算壓力非常大，我們是認為有需要的，政府就會來做補助，過去每年大概有2、3億的費用來進行這樣的補助。"],["劉委員建國：損壞的石綿瓦才算是有害，沒有損害的石綿瓦就不會有害？"],["彭部長啓明：對，等到需要拆除的時候，就一併拆除。"],["劉委員建國：不，這個是後面的事情，8月25號環境部有對外說完整的石綿瓦基本上是無害，這道理是一樣嘛？是一致嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯，對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：但是石綿瓦經過風吹日曬可能會龜裂、可能會出現缺角，這個都不會造成有害，這個也算是完整的石綿瓦、石綿屋瓦嗎？可以這麼認定嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，大概就是說……"],["劉委員建國：對不起，你回答我對的那句話，是缺角、龜裂的算是完整屋頂的石綿瓦嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，只要有裂掉、漏水或是龜裂，都算是有損害，可能有健康風險。"],["劉委員建國：那個就算有損害嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：照理講，現在我們去test，我們去了解、掌握情況之下，像這樣狀況，占50萬噸的比率是多少？你有沒有掌握？有做這樣的掌握嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這次風災現在無人機正在飛，一天大概可以飛170公頃左右，針對臺南、嘉義的地區，雲林我們預計未來也會再飛，目前我們正在重新再算，因為假設沒有損害，現在是逐步淘汰……"],["劉委員建國：假設沒有損害，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是你的定義是，如果現在屋頂看起來是好好的，但有沒有去看它是不是有龜裂、有沒有看它是不是缺角？我們還是認定它是完整的石綿屋瓦，所以就不能優先處理？"],["彭部長啓明：這次不優先處理。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你講這句話……你應該是一個很精準且做事情非常積極的一個部長，這樣講話不夠精準，這樣是會有問題的啊！難道你一定要等到有像丹娜絲颱風造成整個屋頂被吹翻了，我們才去做後續的清理動作，這緩不濟急啊！或許會為時已晚，不應該是這麼處理嘛！而且你的定義說完整的石綿屋瓦並無危害，環境部持續宣導妥善處理，嚴格稽查任意棄置，這是你們8月25號講的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛講的，你怎麼去認定那個屋頂沒有龜裂，那個屋頂沒有缺角？只要龜裂、缺角就誠如部長你剛剛所講的，它就不是一個完整的石綿屋瓦，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：那個你要處理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，要處理。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，每一個縣市環保局，他們都有一些清運的量，你可以跟他去做申請，基本上清運的費用就是我們政府會出。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，部長，但是如果照剛剛我說的雲林縣的案例，坦白講，這樣100年都沒辦法處理完，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：全國50萬噸，部長可能不曉得換了幾任，還是一樣沒辦法處理完成，如果是這個情況之下，我們中南部的百姓，每天上面頂著世界衛生組織公認的一級致癌物，環境部的立場是什麼？環境部的積極作為是什麼？環境部目前只負責清運跟末端的處理，其他各部會，包含教育部有學校的停車場，包含經濟部管的工廠，包含農業部管的畜牧業的廠房，很多石綿瓦早已龜裂、缺角，要不要處理？"],["彭部長啓明：這個大家都要編列相關的經費來做拆除……"],["劉委員建國：還有很多的民房，難道要等到下次颱風吹得一蹋糊塗之後，才要積極來面對處理嗎？所以我要求部長跟財政部，因為房屋稅，財政部跟地方要去做溝通；內政部針對民房；經濟部針對工廠；農業部針對畜牧的廠房；再來，教育部針對學校的這些停車場去檢查到底有沒有龜裂，到底有沒有缺角？是不是完整無害的石綿瓦？部長，你才可以去講這些話，不然這種話講出來，你會傷到……一個星期內召集，一個月內提出解決之道，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們來試看看。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝建國委員，謝謝部長。因為石綿瓦確實是一個很辛苦、很難辦的事情，我覺得可能要借助跨部會的協助。","接著請陳秀寳、陳秀寳、陳秀寳委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","許宇甄、許宇甄、許宇甄委員不在。","今天登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢。","現在進行預算的提案處理，請議事人員宣讀今日審查案的審查項目跟提案，共62案，預計宣讀的時間是40分鐘，宣讀完畢以後大概是2點40分，我們要進行協商，如果沒有預算提案的機關單位，可以先行安靜的離開。","一、預算數：","二、提案："]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝好 環境部部長委員好部長好"},{"start":25.717,"end":53.219,"text":"在2020年當時因為政府就是在積極發展太陽能嘛那很多人對於太陽能光電板的回收可能有疑慮啦所以環保署當時有發新聞稿一直不斷對外強調這光電板的回收機制非常的好不會造成什麼環境的污染然後有一個SOP啦特別是還有提到說會去跟業者收一筆回收清理費用這是光電業者是交給經濟部的"},{"start":54.54,"end":70.576,"text":"我想先問一下這個回收清理費用的用途是什麼假如這個錢那這個錢是用在哪他如果正常22或25年排出之後那個業者他可以跟跟我們去申請這個錢那個錢由這個回收基金一K瓦一千塊來取代"},{"start":72.057,"end":86.459,"text":"所以是押金的概念嗎這個錢交給經濟部之後經濟部會把這個錢拿來用對 經濟部幫忙代收對 代收之後咧然後錢怎麼用我們就要付給這個回收的資源的這個廠商他在處理這樣的工作"},{"start":86.926,"end":101.708,"text":"啊 付給回收清理對 就是說他要送最後你說最後結束 最後的處理案場結束之後是由環保 環境部負責他們要來跟我們提出申請然後來請款那我們經由這樣的管道跟這個能源署請款這個費用那"},{"start":103.07,"end":121.198,"text":"現在的問題是他們很多案場是沒有到二三十年嘛直接風災關係就被吹走了嘛那這筆錢就不能用是不是不行用他們必須要當成是自己的廢棄物那當然啦他因為已經有的已經繳了可能三年五年所以他接下來如果還要再鋪新的光電板他就不用繳了是這個意思還要還要還是要繳"},{"start":123.18,"end":133.5,"text":"現在應該是能源署跟我們這邊有一個協議應該是說他如果繳了三年那300塊那個費用那可以來抵或是怎麼樣這個其實現在已經在最後的這個磋商的階段了"},{"start":134.26,"end":162.853,"text":"不是 我的意思是說就像我們剛剛在講的圓玉這家廠商嘛他的光碟板被抽走被吹走他現在不處理嘛那如果最後啦環境部必須要幫他處理的話是可以用這筆錢嗎還是不行基本上不會所有的我們政府不會幫他出一毛錢那這個回收費用不是他繳的嗎他繳他大概只有繳幾年而已那幾年的費用呢可能部分那幾年的部分或許現在如果能源署認定的話就可以退回給他"},{"start":163.413,"end":192.322,"text":"又要重新開始如果說他要重新開始的話沒有到20年部分按照比例退給他所以這筆錢也可以當這個還是請能源署回答好不好因為他有繳一筆錢嘛這筆錢要先扣著嘛不然到時候你如果萬一他最後不給你錢政府如果幫他處理不給你錢然後這筆錢先扣著委員他現在他要去處理他都必須找處理的廠商去簽約那是他們自己的事情你現在大家講就是說他不處理假如他不處理"},{"start":192.802,"end":215.556,"text":"沒關係我先把我的問題問完等一下一起講啦好不好等一下一起講因為現在廠商就不處理你們現在就是用開罰單的方式嘛就是一張三百萬一張三百萬現在已經罰六百萬九百萬了委員現在是最後三十三十三個廠商只有現在最後一個對在旁邊那他呢已經被我們罰了總共九百萬九百萬嘛不是我部長我覺得很奇怪是政府都沒有更積極作為可以讓他來處理嗎"},{"start":217.017,"end":235.626,"text":"委員這是我們用盡非常積極的沒有問題 一直講完了因為像這一家原育公司其實你去查你可以發現他們在台灣這個同一個負責人他有非常多的能源公司有包括一大堆像什麼盛群什麼東海而且資本額都不低有的還一億多"},{"start":236.306,"end":252.693,"text":"那這些廠商他勢必也要跟政府去申請他後續的光電啊或是暗場部分都沒有辦法跟這個負責人有比較強硬的手段去跟他講就要趕快處理嘛造成環境的問題這是我第一個問題因為今天主席控制時間比較精準第一個問題"},{"start":253.894,"end":282.055,"text":"那第二個問題是如果抓就是擺爛因為看起來就是要擺爛嘛從一開始環境部說一兩個禮拜七月多那時候一兩個禮拜可以解決到現在已經八月快底了然後後來剛剛我聽到最新的數字又變成九月多那九月多會不會又變成十月多他就變成一個無法處理的廢棄物垃圾在那邊假設政府最後進行處理的話那你有沒有先對他要假扣押或者是採取比較強制手段否則你幫他處理萬一他最後不付錢"},{"start":282.856,"end":296.017,"text":"那就變成全民買單耶報告委員我們台灣是一個法治的國家雖然你說的我很想這樣做但是我們必須按照法令一步一步的動現在已經走到最後的階段你說的我們也有在準備當中請委員放心你說要準備什麼"},{"start":296.926,"end":325.22,"text":"你說的剛剛說假扣押或怎麼樣的動作我們都有準備什麼時候會到什麼階段開始他現在在提出他的這個清理的計畫那我們現在在審核當中如果過的話他自己承諾是9月5號對那如果真的沒有到的話那我們政府就要出手了出手的時候就會同時進行假扣押是不是到時候再進我們會請教我們的律師如何再進行但是我相信這家公司他其實最近有表示出積極的態度我們還是給他一點機會OK 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1413,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時51分）麻煩請環境部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請環境部部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，在2020年當時因為政府積極發展太陽能，很多人對於太陽能光電板的回收可能有疑慮，所以環保署當時有發新聞稿一直不斷對外強調，光電板的回收機制非常好，不會造成什麼環境的污染，它有一個SOP，特別還有提到，會跟業者收一筆回收清理費用，這是光電業者繳給經濟部的，我想先問一下這個回收清理費用的用途是什麼？繳了這個錢，這個錢是用在哪？"],["彭部長啓明：它如果正常22或25年排出之後，業者可以跟我們去申請這個錢，這個錢由回收基金1kW1,000塊來取代。"],["葉委員元之：所以是押金的概念嗎？這個錢繳給經濟部之後，經濟部會把錢拿來怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：經濟部幫忙代收……"],["葉委員元之：代收之後錢怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：我們就要付給回收資源的廠商，他再做處理的工作。"],["葉委員元之：付給回收清理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，就是說他最後要……"],["葉委員元之：你說最後案場結束之後，是由環境部負責處理那些光電板？"],["彭部長啓明：他們要來跟我們提出申請，然後來請款，我們經由這樣的管道跟能源署請款這個費用。"],["葉委員元之：現在的問題是，他們很多案場是沒有到二、三十年，因為風災的關係就直接被吹走了，這筆錢就不能用了，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：不行用，他們必須要當成是自己的廢棄物，當然因為有的已經繳了3年、5年……"],["葉委員元之：所以它接下來如果還要再鋪新的光電板，它就不用繳了，是這個意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：還要、還要。"],["葉委員元之：還是要繳？"],["彭部長啓明：現在應該是能源署跟我們這邊有一個協議，應該是說，它如果繳了3年300塊，這個費用可以來抵或是怎麼樣，其實現在已經在最後磋商的階段了。"],["葉委員元之：不是，我的意思是說，譬如像我們剛剛在講元昱這家廠商，它的光電板被吹走，它現在不處理，如果最後環境部必須要幫它處理的話，是可以用這筆錢嗎？還是不行？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上不會，我們政府不會幫它出一毛錢，它必須要去清理……"],["葉委員元之：這個回收費用不是它繳的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：它大概只有繳幾年而已，那幾年的費用，可能部分，或許現在能源署認定的話，就可以退回給他……"],["葉委員元之：還要退回給它？"],["彭部長啓明：又要重新開始。"],["葉委員元之：如果說它要重新開始的話，沒有到20年的部分按照比例退給它？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。這個還是請能源署回答好不好？"],["葉委員元之：不是，我覺得因為它有繳一筆錢嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：這筆錢要先扣著嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對啊！當然要扣著。"],["葉委員元之：不然到時候萬一它最後不給你錢，政府如果幫它處理，它不給你錢，這筆錢就先扣著啊！"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會，委員，現在它要去處理，它都必須找處理的廠商去簽約，那是他們自己的事情。"],["葉委員元之：問題現在大家講的就是它不處理，假如它不處理？沒關係，我先把我的問題問完，等一下一起講，好不好？因為現在廠商就是不處理，你們用開罰單的方式嘛，就是一張300萬、一張300萬，現在已經罰900萬了。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，33個廠商，現在只有最後一個堆在旁邊，它已經被我們罰了總共900萬。"],["葉委員元之：不是，部長，我覺得很奇怪是政府都沒有更積極的作為可以讓它來處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們已經非常積極了！"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，我把問題一次講完，因為像這家元昱公司，其實你去查，你可以發現他們在臺灣，同一個負責人他有非常多的能源公司，有包括一大堆，像盛群、東海，而且資本額都不低喔！有的還一億多啊！這些廠商勢必也要跟政府申請它後續的光電或是案場部分，對負責人都沒有辦法有比較強硬的手段去跟他講，叫他趕快處理嗎？造成的環境問題，這是我第一個問題，因為今天主席控制時間比較精準，這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，如果他就是擺爛，這看起來就是要擺爛，從一開始環境部說一、兩個禮拜，7月多的時候說一、兩個禮拜可以解決，到現在已經8月快底了，剛剛我聽到最新的數字又變成9月多，9月多會不會又變成10月多？它就變成一個無法處理的廢棄物垃圾在那邊？假設政府最後進行處理的話，你有沒有要先對它假扣押，或者是採取比較強制的手段？否則你幫它處理了，萬一它最後不付錢，就變成全民買單耶！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們臺灣是一個法治的國家，雖然你說的我很想這樣做，但是我們必須按照法令一步一步的動，現在已經走到最後的階段，你說的我們也有在準備當中，請委員放心。"],["葉委員元之：你們有準備什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：你剛剛說假扣押或怎麼樣的動作，我們都有準備。"],["葉委員元之：到什麼階段開始？"],["彭部長啓明：它現在提出清理的計畫，我們在審核當中，如果過的話，它自己承諾是9月5號，如果真的沒有做到的話，我們政府就要出手了。"],["葉委員元之：出手的時候就同時進行假扣押，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：到時候我們會請教律師如何來進行，但是我相信這家公司，其實它最近有表示出積極的態度，我們還是給它一點機會。"],["葉委員元之：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接著請黃健豪、黃健豪，黃健豪不在。","鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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我想請環境部部長彭部長環境部"},{"start":23.557,"end":37.386,"text":"部長你好這個是非常多網友應該說全民都非常關心的議題因為您前幾天說如果這個廠商沒有辦法把嘉義的這些光電板清完環境部就要接手了那"},{"start":38.767,"end":56.485,"text":"我們會覺得說奇怪清光電板的速度有夠慢但是我的臉書下面有網友回文啊他就說環境部出手又要拿人民的納稅錢去處理結果呢環境部的小編馬上回他小編回的速度有夠快說"},{"start":57.546,"end":78.025,"text":"不要輕信轉傳未經查證的影片環境部會持續查核如果對於惡意造假散佈不實資訊者將於用司法單位嚴正的追查那我想問一下彭部長有認為我跟這位網友是不認識的但他覺得自己很委屈我也想知道說部長您是認為他在造謠嗎"},{"start":81.073,"end":102.003,"text":"委員我也很委屈啊因為你說的不是事實啊我也很委屈啊因為光電板我們很認真在處理可是委員你說我還要用公眾的錢我也受到委屈啊我們看下一張因為大家很關心你的接手是什麼意思所以我們今天也把接手講清楚你要怎麼接手"},{"start":103.463,"end":120.155,"text":"當然你現在有提追加預算嘛所以我們都有看你的追加預算也有到你環境部問每一筆是用在什麼地方但是因為你已經公開在新聞上說環境部會接手那接手當然需要錢啊錢從哪裡來你必須要跟大家講啊"},{"start":120.575,"end":139.917,"text":"好 委員我們是依據廢清法我們會進行代位求償如果我們它一直都到9月5號前沒有清我們會走到那一步那個要代位求償不是我們政府要出錢的那我們編在這個16E裡面主要是處理實棉主要的一個這最主要的廢物還有廢棄物沒有包含光電板跟各位委員保證"},{"start":142.144,"end":162.063,"text":"你的接手的意思是說環境部會先出錢找別的廠商沒有出錢我們會安排因為報告委員這家公司他的資本額我們也查過他的這個手上的錢還夠用很夠用所以我們基本上不會用到政府一毛錢就是要求他一定要限令要清除完畢就對了"},{"start":163.018,"end":181.367,"text":"好這個廠商因為之前我們有跟你去搞考察我們辦公室有跟你去考察你也很誠實的說有一家回收光電板的你覺得是不惜血本的在做很認真另外一家你說很不積極很擺爛這個也是你考察的時候自己說的"},{"start":182.327,"end":196.355,"text":"他都已經不在乎被你罰300萬因為他把這個所謂光電板的浮台繳稅違反廢清法 他都已經這樣了速度也很慢 因為你之前這麼多委員關心的時候 你說"},{"start":197.335,"end":215.247,"text":"一個半月一個多月可以清除完但事實證明你早上回答賴世保委員的是9月5號啊你早上回答的日期我們按照時間他要必須例如說明天還要再開罰一張300萬但是他提出一個清理計畫書我們現在正在審核嘉義縣環保局在審核他們預計9月5號可以完全清完所以一個那麼不在乎被你開罰兩次的廠商你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償是這個意思嗎"},{"start":227.315,"end":254.096,"text":"如果他9月5號做不到那當然我們政府一定要出手他破壞環境所以你保證你追的回來委員這個是他們一定要再做這個事情那他們基本上還未來還要在台灣做生意他們一定要負起這個責任的他如果要付的話早就早就已經付了他現在已經被你罰兩次他認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心但是告訴我們我們已經罰了整個他已經900萬了後面就是300萬一張的罰單"},{"start":256.018,"end":269.615,"text":"好 那我們就也對你有信心希望9月5號第一9月5號可以確實的清完 對吧對 也拜託委員不要說讓我說很像我又在誣蔑我們又在說花政府的錢沒有這回事也請委員能夠幫我澄清"},{"start":271.698,"end":296.283,"text":"你說環境部要接手你就把他講清楚就好了這個是如果當天是有媒體記者訪問說萬一沒有清完怎麼辦那沒有清完當然依照費心法我們要來代位求償除完要跟他索討啊本來就是這個樣子再來這也是另外您說八月底之前可以給我們的當初每一片光電板都會有序號也就是他的身分證證號"},{"start":298.143,"end":314.395,"text":"可是很多人就已經在莫名其妙的地方找到光點板有的卡在樹上有的在池塘裡面有的已經留掉了現在不只是清不完你八月底就已經清不完了我想問你八月底之前你覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎"},{"start":315.896,"end":339.112,"text":"因為當初您說失蹤的你也會告訴我如果他年限還沒到卻因為一個風災已經廢棄的需要回收的你也會告訴我假使他是真的到年限了你也會告訴我我們需要這個數據啊可以 這個現在那個能源署跟環境部有一個平台那他們正在登錄當中等到這個 因為13萬片13.5萬片實在太多了我們會給他們一點點時間希望把那個數據早一點看到"},{"start":344.355,"end":365.809,"text":"好那裡面會包括比如說他年限還有很久但是因為這次風災受損我們可以有這個資料嗎當然也有一些是已經掉到水裡面那個碼已經掉了我也有看到這樣那我們也有要求他要秤重要量有多少必須有證明出來好所以八月底會有可能要到九月中九月中好我再修改好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1378,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（13時44分）謝謝主席。我想請環境部部長彭部長。"],["主席：環境部。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你好。這個是非常多網友，應該是說全民都非常關心的議題，因為您前幾天說如果廠商沒有辦法把嘉義這些光電板清完，環境部就要接手了，我們會覺得奇怪，清光電板的速度有夠慢，但是我的臉書下面有網友回文，他就說環境部出手，又要拿人民的納稅錢去處理；結果環境部的小編馬上回他，小編回的速度有夠快，說不要輕信、轉傳未經查證的影片，環境部會持續查核，對於惡意造假、散布不實資訊者，將與司法單位嚴正追查。那我想問一下彭部長，我跟這位網友是不認識的，但他覺得自己很委屈，我也想知道部長您是認為他在造謠嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我也很委屈啊！因為你說的不是事實啊！我也很委屈啊！因為我們很認真在處理光電板，可是委員，你說我還要用公眾的錢，我也受到委屈啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：我們看下一張，因為大家很關心你的「接手」是什麼意思，所以我們今天也把「接手」講清楚，你要怎麼「接手」？當然你現在有提追加預算，所以我們都有看你的追加預算，也有到環境部問每一筆是用在什麼地方，但是因為你已經公開在新聞上說環境部會接手，接手當然需要錢啊！錢從哪裡來？你必須要跟大家講啊！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們是依據廢清法，我們會進行代位求償，如果他一直到9月5號前沒有清，我們會走到那一步，那個要代位求償，不是我們政府要出錢的。我們編的這個16億裡面，主要是處理石綿，這是最主要的，還有廢棄物，沒有包含光電板，跟各位委員保證，光電板是零！"],["陳委員菁徽：你的「接手」的意思是說環境部會先出錢，找別的廠商……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有出錢、沒有出錢，我們會安排……"],["陳委員菁徽：找別的廠商……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這家公司的資本額，我們也查過它手上的錢很夠用，所以我們基本上不會用到政府一毛錢，就是要求它限期一定要清除完畢就對了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為之前我們辦公室有跟你去考察，你也很誠實的說，有一家回收光電板的，你覺得是不惜血本的在做，很認真，但另外一家，你說很不積極、很擺爛，這個也是你考察的時候自己說的，它都已經不在乎被你罰300萬，因為它把光電板的浮臺絞碎，違反廢清法，它都已經這樣了，速度也很慢，因為之前這麼多委員關心的時候，你說一個半月、一個多月可以清除完，但事實證明……你早上回答賴士葆委員的是9月5號啊！你早上回答的日期……"],["彭部長啓明：對，按照時間，明天還要再開罰一張300萬，但是它提出一個清理計畫書，我們現在正在審核，嘉義縣環保局在審核，他們預計9月5號可以完全清完。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以一個那麼不在乎被你開罰兩次的廠商，你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償，是這個意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果它9月5號做不到，當然我們政府一定要出手，因為它破壞環境。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你保證你追得回來？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個是他們一定要做這個事情，基本上未來他們還要在臺灣做生意，他們一定要負起這個責任的。"],["陳委員菁徽：它如果要負的話早就已經負了，它已經被你罰兩次了。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，它認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心，但是告訴委員，我們已經罰了它900萬，後面就是300萬一張的罰單。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我們也對你有信心，第一，希望9月5號可以確實的清完，對吧？你早上講的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，也拜託委員不要讓我覺得很像又在誣衊我們、又在說花政府的錢，沒有這回事，也請委員能夠幫我澄清。"],["陳委員菁徽：你說環境部要接手，你就把它講清楚就好了。"],["彭部長啓明：這個是當天有媒體記者訪問萬一沒有清完怎麼辦？沒有清完，當然依照廢清法，我們要來代位求償，處理完要跟它索討啊！本來就是這個樣子啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：好。再來，這也是另外您說的8月底之前可以給我們的，當初每一片光電板都會有序號，也就是它的身分證證號，可是很多人就已經在莫名其妙的地方找到光電板，有的卡在樹上、有的在池塘裡面、有的已經流掉了，現在不只是清不完，8月底就已經清不完了，我想問你，8月底之前你覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎？因為當初您說失蹤的也會告訴我，如果它年限還沒到，卻因為風災已經廢棄的、需要回收的，你也會告訴我，假使它是真的到年限了，你也會告訴我，我們需要這個數據啊！"],["彭部長啓明：可以，現在能源署跟環境部有一個平臺，他們正在登錄當中，因為13萬片……"],["陳委員菁徽：13.5萬片！"],["彭部長啓明：13.5萬片實在太多了，我們會給他們一點點時間，希望可以早一點看到那個數據。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，裡面會包括，比如說，它的年限還有很久但是因為這次風災受損，我們可以有這個資料嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：每一個都有，當然也有一些是已經掉到水裡面那個「碼」已經掉了，我也有看到這樣，我們有要求他要秤重，量有多少必須有證明出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以8月底會有？"],["彭部長啓明：可能要到9月中。"],["陳委員菁徽：9月中，好，我再修改，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","接著請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請教育部部長好 教育部部長委員好"},{"start":32.791,"end":44.969,"text":"部長好 有關於葉秉成次長在姓平案件涉及洩密的這件事情您多次表達歉意葉次長也表達愧疚你們確實應該要感到愧疚"},{"start":52.578,"end":73.369,"text":"這個案件它已經不只是一個個案了部長我不知道你知不知道現在引發了基層教師很多的反彈憤怒跟擔憂包括了性平學生團體大家擔心的是這一次的案件的處理會不會幫性平法的保密制度打開一個破口大開後門開倒車為什麼"},{"start":79.315,"end":88.14,"text":"因為在一般性平案件裡面的保密我們對基層的教師是以最高標準在要求但是這一次你們對於你們教育部的高官卻是用最寬鬆的標準在縱容"},{"start":100.532,"end":123.88,"text":"性評會調查結果也給我們教育部建議嘛對不對部長給我們兩個建議第一有關違反個資法的部分因為不屬於性評會調查範圍請教育部調查有關於政務人員有沒有違反公務人員服務辦法服務法的問題不屬於性評會的權責請教育部調查但是啊部長我想請問"},{"start":129.485,"end":132.789,"text":"這兩個事情 個資法 公務人員服務法教育部不知道自己可以調查嗎這個案件發生多久了還要由性評會的外部委員來告訴你們教育部說你必須要啟動行政調查"},{"start":150.188,"end":179.231,"text":"而我們教育委員會的委員包括我在內我們在今年4月就已經發文給教育部當時我們就要求教育部必須盡速啟動調查程序如今查證屬實設有違反個人資料保護或行政倫理之情節進行懲處所以4月的時候你們就可以啟動行政調查了"},{"start":181.001,"end":182.723,"text":"當時有啟動嗎 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謝謝有請經濟部次長 台電董事長還有國土署長"},{"start":18.111,"end":44.248,"text":"經濟部次長還有鄭文森董事長吳興修署長委員好這次丹尼斯颱風跟728豪雨確實其實它來之前高雄市也是全力待命因為高雄市去年經歷了凱米 康瑞跟山陀爾其實也是損失非常慘重民眾倒是放了七天假其中有一天很特別叫修復家園假"},{"start":45.256,"end":72.806,"text":"那去年高雄市也跟行政院申請了超過40億的災後的這個復原的所有的經費感謝行政院去年的協助今年現在來趕快加速要來省這個丹納斯600億的這些重建經費我想除了水利設施農業補助經濟弱勢還有修復交通住宅還有最重要的電力那剛剛也有很多委員也有提到這個"},{"start":75.086,"end":89.675,"text":"這些經濟補助的不足等等的我也是覺得這一次從整個嘉南平原進去那我看到我們立法院幾位同事包含今天代會員主席還有郭國文委員 林俊憲委員還有蔡奕宇委員"},{"start":90.535,"end":108.763,"text":"整天泡在水裡泡了兩個禮拜還有我找了國土署吳興修署長也找了兩個禮拜都在台南所以這次都很辛苦各位在第一線來協助所有的災民我在這邊想要先就叫鄭文森董事長"},{"start":110.334,"end":122.649,"text":"這一次台電的修復裡面我知道有大量大量全國或者是其他的包商都來支援協助當然修復的期間非常的長這一個"},{"start":125.663,"end":149.182,"text":"台風它還是有它 比如說高雄比較嚴重或者是這一次台南嘉義嚴重我想請教你這一次調度的狀況大概是全國都調過來還是有怎麼樣調度的狀況可以說明一下好 那個 跟委員報告因為台風那時候是從西邊來那一開始就是我們大概是台中以南都警戒"},{"start":150.816,"end":174.942,"text":"那最後確定其實從巴掌溪附近進來以後其實嘉義台南最嚴重那高雄的狀況是他有災情 北高雄有災情那高雄是等到執行完畢才到嘉南那中部有下來嗎中部有北部有嗎北部也有 北部是最早支援的因為北部沒有災情"},{"start":175.987,"end":203.197,"text":"好 謝謝那這一個調度未來會成為常態嗎其實做的最完善就是從去年三坨河開始我跟委員報告去年三坨河因為他在我想民眾需要聽這個啦因為大家知道台電很辛苦大家也知道這一個區域的人他只能做到什麼程度他24小時不要睡覺坐在路邊吃便當的畫面大家都看到但是我們怎麼調度我希望可以讓民眾也清楚好 我跟委員報告其實就是我們都會先看颱風路徑的預判"},{"start":205.356,"end":211.458,"text":"那今年的這一個颱風其實當然是颱風比較特別它原來路徑是沿著台灣海峽往北走所以會在哪個地方會不會登陸會在哪個地方登陸我們比較沒有那麼確定所以我們是颱風深夜登陸隔天我們才開始出動狀況就是哪裡災情比較嚴重我們就支援哪邊那我坦白跟您說雲林 嘉義 台南是最早被支援的"},{"start":231.543,"end":248.369,"text":"那都是北部下來支援那除了台電自己的這些人力之外所有公班包含你講的包商跟委員報告就是其實我們那些電感導斷那些重機其實包商手上的設備比台電多"},{"start":249.87,"end":263.89,"text":"所以都是包商來協助幫忙支援這個是下一個我要請教你的問題我在去年針對男子產業園區他們要裝設161千伏特的便電站專用為什麼就是你也知道"},{"start":266.641,"end":291.696,"text":"這些半導體產業它的電網必須要是非常牢固的那也跟今天很多人在請教你的問題一樣有沒有全面地下化或者是這些目前這個江南平原的要怎麼改善的這些計畫我看我們兩年分別編了50億要給台電來做改善目前的方案跟計畫會是什麼而全國會是什麼"},{"start":293.199,"end":317.553,"text":"我先說一下就是您關心那個楠梓科技產業園區它那個地方是這樣它以前是普通高壓那您剛才講161KV是特高壓所以我們基本上是要把它升級這個確定要做沒有 那個是另外一個議題我只是說針對這種科技產業園區的電網是需要這樣那時候也整合了很多民生用電把它整合出去那把民生用電另外做一個整理對 就分流對"},{"start":318.433,"end":346.696,"text":"那現在對於江南平原對於災區我們明年度後年度都50億的經費我們打算要怎麼做那個我們會先因為這次導斷主要是在阻幹線就它影響範圍比較大我們會先把阻幹線的電網在它的陸基比較好會先地下化那如果災情多好沒問題那我是要請吳組長上來是要跟你說感謝辛苦啦這次台南讓你整合了剛剛部長講的三萬四千戶"},{"start":347.838,"end":350.504,"text":"謝謝你們 辛苦了 謝謝感謝前進指揮所 謝謝謝謝 謝謝大家 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主席有點累了那就麻煩環境部彭部長經濟部和次長環境部跟經濟部次長"},{"start":18.976,"end":19.176,"text":"廖長江議員"},{"start":49.076,"end":78.556,"text":"那對不起我們看得出來就是在這次的風災裡面光電板的傷害非常非常的明顯而且非常的巨大也引起民眾蠻多的恐慌尤其到後面好像清潔的部分一直沒有辦法如期的完成所以對民眾來講壓力是蠻大的那部長彭部長也針對這個未來這個光電板出現了漏洞應該要有什麼好的方式來做處理"},{"start":79.296,"end":107.137,"text":"那漏洞在哪里改善的方向在哪里大家可以从这个荧幕上很容易看到包括副部长所提出来一个日常缺理的缺失风灾防护标准的不足灾害应变的不足还有灾后清理缺乏计划等等当然一个补偿也是后续要处理的部分这个都是未来我们要面对这个漏洞如何来改善的地方那这个当然需要从各个部会各个面向一起来处理"},{"start":107.797,"end":122.49,"text":"我們也了解在這個過程裡面事實上真的是需要進行一次的總體檢這個總體檢當然工程應該不會太小包括當地的地方政府還有如果有牽涉到"},{"start":123.331,"end":152.176,"text":"台糖的這些土地的利用的話這個其實大家相關單位都應該要一起來協助所以針對這部分我們有一個比較具體的建議希望能夠讓各個部會來參考包括說在這個過程裡面要檢討修正合約範本跟準則一開始的時候一定經濟部這邊都有跟相關的廠商訂了合約來明確責任跟處置那第二部分就是總體檢要涉及跨部會的"},{"start":152.916,"end":169.627,"text":"方面呢務必要妥善的協調分工包括地方政府中央政府等等的都應該要共同來努力處理第三個就是檢討光電板災害處理合理的費用以及這個納災的可能性因為一開始我們沒有想到風災會這麼樣的強烈"},{"start":172.289,"end":185.404,"text":"導致之前納栽堡好像並沒有考量進來往後如果持續有這個問題的話應該要怎麼具體的處理這部分可能到時候再麻煩確認一個時間點讓所有的部會"},{"start":188.907,"end":207.541,"text":"委員會都能夠讓委員們共同來參考那最後一項就是有關於這個加強災後環境整潔跟這個疫情的防治最近也有報導知道說高雄已經出現了本土的登革熱那氣溫還是非常的高所以再加上這個雨量多"},{"start":208.382,"end":235.591,"text":"等等相關的這些風險傳染的風險都非常的高所以要麻煩彭部長針對於三個部分來加強第一個就是加強宣導跟協助清除積水的容器第二部分就是提供必要的資源來落實環境清潔的消毒第三個就是要協助完善的這個清潔防護設備不管是跟疾管署還有跟地方政府都共同的來努力以上這個兩個問題再麻煩部長跟次長一起來說明"},{"start":237.925,"end":259.196,"text":"謝謝王委員這個說明其實跟我們看到的現象其實是差不了多元所以未來我們會對這個光天業者會朝這幾個具體建立的一個方向我們來跟這個光天業者來做一些要求那包括一些納保或是"},{"start":260.016,"end":274.333,"text":"呃要求他在合約上面要有呃承擔一些這個未來有一些這個災災損的部分的這些責任啊那我想這個部分我們都可以來跟環境部啊還有相關的部位來配合是是好"},{"start":274.753,"end":303.363,"text":"我們會全力的配合這個經濟部來對於光電特別是他的清除管理的計畫他有沒有落實我們會協助他們來進行這樣的體檢那另外剛剛委員提到的這個環境衛生特別是登革熱的這個疫情我們現在很積極我們都有派人到各地去巡查跟地方環保局在合作那這個噴灑的部分衛生的部分也積極在進行不過其實現在因為今年像昨天也有幾例在發生我們會特別特別的再來加強這樣的工作謝謝"},{"start":304.502,"end":330.532,"text":"那請問這個總體檢預計要花多少時間我們可以得到報告跟委員報告我們現在水面的部分那個已經都檢查完了大概應該好我跟委員報告一下那個水面性暗藏我們大概都檢查過了那缺失就跟剛委員報告差不多那我們會給他兩個月時間去做改善我們會去復檢以上報告兩個月是好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1206,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（13時6分）謝謝主席，主席有點累了。麻煩請環境部彭部長、經濟部何次長。"],["主席：請環境部跟經濟部次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，次長好。今天有兩個問題來請教，我相信今天一定很多委員都有提出類似的問題，我把我的問題全部一次說明以後，再麻煩兩位一起來做回答。第一個部分是有關光電板的災後應變處置，跟一些清潔復原機制，還有大型光電板的總體檢，這是第一部分。第二部分是災後的環境清潔跟防疫。","我們看得出來，在這次的風災裡面，光電板的傷害非常非常的明顯，而且非常的巨大，也引起民眾滿多的恐慌，尤其到後面好像清潔的部分一直沒有辦法如期完成，所以對民眾來講壓力是滿大的。彭部長也針對未來光電板出現的漏洞，提出應該要有什麼好的方式來處理，漏洞在哪裡，改善的方向在哪裡？大家可以很容易從這個螢幕上看到，包括彭部長所提出來的日常處理缺失──風災防護標準的不足、災害應變的不足，還有災後清理缺乏計畫等等，當然補償也是後續要處理的部分，這個漏洞要如何改善都是未來我們要面對的地方，這個當然需要從各個部會、各個面向一起來處理。我們也了解，在這個過程裡面，事實上真的是需要進行一次的總體檢，當然這個總體檢工程應該不會太小，包括當地的地方政府，還有如果有牽涉到台糖這些土地的利用的話，其實大家跟相關單位都應該要一起來協助。","針對這部分我們有一個比較具體的建議，希望能夠讓各個部會來參考，包括在這個過程裡面，要檢討、修正合約範本跟準則。一開始的時候經濟部一定都有跟相關的廠商訂了合約，來明確責任跟處置。第二部分就是總體檢涉及跨部會的方面務必要妥善協調分工，包括地方政府、中央政府等等，都應該要共同來努力處理。第三個就是檢討光電板災害處理合理的費用，以及納災保的可能性，因為一開始我們沒有想到風災會這麼強烈，導致之前納災保的部分好像並沒有把它考量進來，往後如果持續有這個問題的話，應該要怎麼具體的處理？這部分到時候再麻煩確認一個時間點，讓所有的部會、委員會和委員們都能夠共同來參考。","最後一項有關於加強災後環環境整潔跟疫情的防治，最近也有報導說高雄已經出現了本土的登革熱，氣溫還是非常的高，再加上雨量多等等，相關的這些讓傳染的風險都非常的高，所以要麻煩彭部長針對於三個部分來加強：第一個，就是加強宣導跟協助清除積水的容器；第二部分，提供必要的資源落實環境清潔消毒；第三個，要協助完善清潔防護設備，不管是跟疾管署，還有跟地方政府都要共同的努力。以上這兩個問題，再麻煩部長跟次長一起說明。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝王委員，王委員這個說明其實跟我們看到的現象差不了多遠，所以未來我們會對光電業者朝這幾個具體建議的方向，跟光電業者做一些要求，包括一些納保，或是要求它未來在合約上面要承擔一些災損部分的責任，我想這個部分我們都可以來跟環境部還有相關的部會來配合。"],["彭部長啓明：我們會全力的配合經濟部，特別對於光電的清除管理計畫有沒有落實，我們會協助他們來進行這樣的體檢。另外，剛剛委員提到的環境衛生，特別是登革熱的疫情，我們現在很積極，都有派人到各地去巡查，跟地方環保局來合作，並且噴灑、衛生的部分也積極在進行。不過，其實今年……像昨天也有幾例發生，我們會特別再加強這樣的工作，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：請問總體檢預計要花多少時間，然後可以讓我們得到報告？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們現在水面的部分已經都檢查完了……"],["吳副署長志偉：我跟委員報告一下，水面型案場我們大概都檢查過了，缺失就跟剛剛委員報告的差不多，我們會給它兩個月時間去做改善，我們會去複檢，以上報告，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。","接著請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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魯明哲委員魯明哲委員魯明哲委員不在請邱毅英委員邱毅英委員邱毅英委員不在請黃建斌委員黃建斌委員黃建斌委員不在請徐富奎委員質詢"},{"start":26.751,"end":39.185,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們經濟部核次長 台電曾董事長 農業部陳部長好 請經濟部核次長 台電董事長那還有什麼 農業部陳部長"},{"start":42.631,"end":60.003,"text":"是大家辛苦了那我想這一次我們還是要針對這個整個這個台灣的這個電纜的一個韌性的部分還是要請我們經濟部跟台電要多幫忙那我想曾董事長這個去年我們屏東遭逢好幾個颱風之後"},{"start":61.184,"end":81.152,"text":"我想第一時間我也約他到我們這個林邊家東跟我們養殖的一個漁民座談那當時大家關心的議題就是電纜地下化的一個設置的一個時程跟一個方式那當時我知道當然曾董事長這個有一些的思考的想法跟做法啦那尤其是"},{"start":82.152,"end":101.292,"text":"今年我看今年8月16號我們卓院長也正式在對外有講說請我們這個經濟部跟台電針對全國電纜地下化的先行評估的作業我想有做這樣的一個宣示那請問一下市長或董事長目前我們規劃的期程怎麼進行"},{"start":102.213,"end":118.612,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說那個電網強盛的事情我們一直我們會更加速的來做那其實我們在沿海餘溫的一些做法上其實去年我們做了一些新的變化我想你應該有感受到就是最近這次颱風來"},{"start":119.793,"end":142.425,"text":"其實更換過的電感其實就有擋住颱風意思是說我們用不同的方法做但整體的規劃早上我有承諾過我們會在兩個月內提一個初步的整體的規劃出來但它不是全部地下化就整個強韌因為包含我們這次提的特別預算也是一部分地下化一部分我們加強電感的強度來減少導斷"},{"start":145.006,"end":170.826,"text":"董事長因為前幾天我們的鄉親還在問我這個問題那當然因為他們看到小琉球也感謝台電的支持小琉球已經先出來了小琉球全線都全島都電纜地下化那包含我們的平俄公路在蘇貞昌院長的時候我想這個都經歷颱風的肆虐之後都確保我們的用電安全所以大家都期待這樣一個電纜地下化的案子能夠持續推動但是當然沿海區域的一個這個低窪的一個問題還有所謂的一個維修的問題"},{"start":173.608,"end":191.935,"text":"當初你有 我覺得有問題就要提啦至於說那個企產怎麼規劃 路程怎麼樣去進行我想大家都可以來配合 但是一定要有進度出來啦要不然特別回到訪台 大家就歡樂啦 就走路啦那尤其是我們這個養殖區這個目前台17線也在進行這個規劃了嘛我想這部分我們都要持續來做對 台17線是我們要規劃的"},{"start":199.324,"end":212.052,"text":"董事長因為我知道我們後來包含訪寮也有一些的案子但是後來因為你們說經費不足那如果現在經費到位之後原本一些規劃的案子能不能持續在推動進行我們整個台17線都會整個來規劃訪寮大莊這邊那個 東海這邊那個因為上一次是應該是三坨的時候有傾斜"},{"start":221.226,"end":239.272,"text":"那傾斜的那一個部分的狀況我們如果可以來但是因為它旁邊就是餘溫餘溫通常地下水會比較高但是如果可以坐在路的中間不要靠邊上那這個我們要跟公路單位做一些協調這個我已經請交通部陳部長跟公路局長來協助了我們趕快把介面搭起來趕快來做處理好的好 謝謝那我們請陳部長"},{"start":244.916,"end":267.542,"text":"部長我想您的業務很繁重那當然就是我還是特別提到上次我在諮詢院長的時候我們還是要求這個整個治山防洪要整個都在您的部裡面包含從林保署也好水保署也好到這個整個我們區排的部分我想有很多需要農業部大力的支持部長能不能承諾一下我們整個在"},{"start":268.522,"end":291.54,"text":"整個治山防洪的這個部分能夠做一個有效的一個系統的一個整治不要切香腸的處理方式我跟委員報告就是在這次的特別預算裡面我們針對了大概治山防洪農水路還有一些波地土石流防災的部分大概編了大概71到72億然後我們年度的預算跟治山防洪有關的年度預算大概是120億所以我們不會說現在的"},{"start":295.223,"end":306.812,"text":"現在問題是因為風災了就用特別預算其他的不用所以我們會把我們整體的經費做有效的運用然後是以災區的這些相關的土質流崩塌的還有需要去處理的部分我們來優先處理"},{"start":308.255,"end":325.675,"text":"這個我們也會請我們縣政府來做配合把整個從山區到我們平地要做一個完整的處理對 我們其中的我剛才說的我們在這支裡面大概有將近76.82億是跟農水路或是跟置山防蚊有關的是會請地方政府來執行"},{"start":326.816,"end":355.776,"text":"另外我還要提一個問題我們放寮北市寮有一個海水供應站是我們屏東縣最早的供應站但是輸用30年了最近因為丹納斯颱風造成這個取水管線斷裂然後大量的泥沙也造成抽水馬達一個損害這部分我們請縣政府提報來補助一下我們的經費好我再請我們的那個應該是水路署去看那個漁業署去看一下看那個經費到底規模多大我們再來看怎麼樣處理"},{"start":356.496,"end":358.158,"text":"好那我最後一個問題要請我們內政部劉部長謝謝陳部長劉部這兩個問題兩個部會都要作出處理"},{"start":371.031,"end":388.084,"text":"兩位部長那個我們橫春有個龍鑾潭它是我們一個很重要的一個濕地也是一個後兩的一個棲地但是它也是一個橫春半島這個滯洪的一個很重要的一個水域因為這一次的颱風我們發現因為它的原本的淤積太過嚴重"},{"start":389.025,"end":418.131,"text":"造成它的這個容量有限所以造成恆春市區大淹水那我們有希望在不影響生態的狀況之下因為這也是農水署很重要的一個灌溉的一個來源能不能由墾管處跟農水署怎麼樣來搭配在不影響到生態狀況之下應該要做有效一個清淤然後能夠協助這樣子一個防洪治洪的一個功能我想這個部分是我們農田水利署在負責管轄特別是在當作灌溉用的所以這個部分的清淤我想我們農"},{"start":419.111,"end":421.874,"text":"農水組這邊會來處理然後需要其他部位的話我們會請其他部位來支援對 那個沒有問題我們可以協助"},{"start":428.975,"end":449.427,"text":"那我想這個騎乘因為我們有一些猴鳥的這個生態的他們考量所以我們怎麼樣把騎乘抓好然後在不影響這個生態保育的狀況之下這一定要做要不然我這強降雨這個瞬間雨量那麼大恆春市區大淹水這個小桃不利啦這要特別拜託一下那我也找時間把相關部位都找來我們一起來會勘協調一下"},{"start":452.19,"end":459.72,"text":"好謝謝謝謝護魁謝謝那個農業部長如果是在這一次的災情都那個蓄水池都可以透過那個龍水水"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1142,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時51分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部何次長、台電曾董事長、農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請經濟部何次長、台電董事長，還有農業部陳部長。"],["何次長晉滄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：大家辛苦了！這次針對整個臺灣電纜韌性的部分，還是要請經濟部跟台電多幫忙。曾董事長，去年屏東遭逢好幾個颱風之後，第一時間，我也約你到林邊、佳冬跟我們的養殖漁民座談，當時大家關心的議題，就是電纜地下化的設置時程和方式，我知道當時曾董事長是有一些思考的想法和作法，尤其在今年8月16號，卓院長也正式對外宣示要求經濟部跟台電針對全國電纜地下化工程進行先期評估作業，所以我想請問次長或董事長，目前規劃的期程是怎麼進行？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，有關電纜強韌的計畫，我們會更加速來做，其實在沿海漁塭的一些作法上，去年我們做了一些新的變化，我想你應該也有感受到，就是最近這次颱風來襲，更換過的電桿就有擋住颱風，意思就是我們用不同的方法做。但整體的規劃，早上我有承諾過，我們會在兩個月內提一個初步的、整體的規劃出來，但它不是全部地下化，是整個強韌計畫，因為包含這次我們提出的特別預算，也是一部分地下化，一部分加強電桿強度，以減少倒、斷的問題。"],["徐委員富癸：前幾天我們鄉親還在問我這個問題，因為他們看到小琉球的情形，也感謝台電的支持……"],["曾董事長文生：小琉球已經先做了。"],["徐委員富癸：對，小琉球全島都電纜地下化了，包含屏鵝公路在蘇貞昌院長的時候也加強措施，在經歷颱風肆虐之後，都確保了我們的用電安全，所以大家都期待這樣一個電纜地下化的案子能夠持續推動。當然沿海區域有低窪的問題，還有所謂維修的問題，但是我覺得有問題就要提出來，至於期程怎麼規劃、路程怎麼進行，我想大家都可以配合，但一定要有進度出來，不然每次遇到颱風，大家就很煩惱、很害怕，尤其是養殖區，目前臺17線已經在進行規劃，我想這部分應該都要持續來做。"],["曾董事長文生：對，臺17線是我們要規劃的。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，我知道包含枋寮等也有一些案子，但後來因為你們說經費不足而停止，現在如果經費到位，原本一些規劃的案子能不能持續再推動進行？"],["曾董事長文生：臺17線都會整個規劃。"],["徐委員富癸：那枋寮的大庄和東海這邊呢？"],["曾董事長文生：上一次應該是山陀兒的時候有傾斜，傾斜那個部分如果可以來……但因為它的旁邊就是漁塭，漁塭通常地下水位比較高，但如果可以做在路的中間，不要靠邊上，應該是可行，這部分我們要跟公路單位做一些協調。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分我已經請交通部陳部長跟公路局長來協助了，我們趕快把介面搭起來，趕快來處理。"],["曾董事長文生：好的。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。接下來要請教陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，你的業務很繁重，但我還是要特別提到，上次我質詢院長的時候，要求整個治山防洪要統整在你農業部裡，包括從林保署、水保署，到整個區排部分，我想有很多需要農業部大力支持的地方，在此，部長能不能承諾整個治山防洪的部分，要做一個有效的、系統的整治，而不要以切香腸的方式處理？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，在這次特別預算裡面，針對治山防洪、農水路，還有一些坡地土石流防災部分，我們大概編列了71到72億，然後跟治山防洪有關的年度預算，大概是120億，所以我們不會因為現在的問題是風災的緣故，就用特別預算，其他的不用，我們會就整體經費做有效的運用，然後災區這些相關土石流部分，還有需要處理的部分，我們會優先來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：這個我也會請縣政府配合，從山區到平地，要做一個完整的處理。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我剛才說的，我們在這次裡面大概有將近76.82億是跟農水路或是跟治山防洪有關的，會請地方政府來執行。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，另外我還要提一個問題，我們枋寮、北勢寮有一個海水供應站，是我們屏東縣最早的供應站，但是使用30年了，最近因為丹娜斯颱風造成取水管線斷裂，然後大量的泥沙也造成抽水馬達的損害，這部分我們請縣政府提報，請部長幫忙一下來補助我們的經費。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我再請我們的漁業署去看一下，看那個經費到底規模多大，我們再來看怎麼樣處理。"],["徐委員富癸：好。那我最後一個問題要請我們內政部劉部長，謝謝。陳部長留步，這個問題兩個部會都要一起處理。","兩位部長，我們恆春有個龍鑾潭，它是我們一個很重要的溼地，也是一個候鳥的棲地，但是它也是恆春半島滯洪的一個很重要的水域。因為這一次的颱風，我們發現它原本的淤積太過嚴重，造成它的容量有限，所以造成恆春市區大淹水，我們希望在不影響生態的狀況之下，因為這也是農水署很重要的一個灌溉的來源，能不能由墾管處跟農水署怎麼樣來搭配，在不影響到生態狀況之下，應該要做有效的清淤，然後能夠協助這樣子的一個防洪、滯洪的功能？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分是我們農田水利署在負責管轄，特別是當作灌溉用的，所以這個部分的清淤，我想我們農水署這邊會來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：對，但是因為我們確實有生態保育的問題……"],["陳部長駿季：需要其他部會的話，我們會請其他部會……"],["徐委員富癸：也需要墾管處來做協助。"],["劉部長世芳：這個沒有問題，我們可以協助。"],["徐委員富癸：好。那我想這個期程，因為我們有一些候鳥生態的考量，所以我們怎麼樣把期程抓好，然後在不影響生態保育的狀況之下，這一定要做，不然永遠……強降雨的瞬間雨量那麼大，恆春市區大淹水，水都來不及排掉，這個要特別拜託一下。那我也找時間把相關部會都找來，我們一起來會勘協調一下。"],["主席：謝謝富癸。農業部長，如果是在這一次的災情，蓄水池都可以透過農水署來清淤的話，那我們那邊也很多，我們再把資料送上來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我想我們這個部分，特別是一些農林灌溉的蓄水池，如果需要去清淤的話，我想我們會來……看委員有什麼樣，我們可以來處理。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。","我們接著請高金素梅，高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","吳琪銘，吳琪銘、吳琪銘委員不在。","接著我們請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","吳琪銘","許宇甄","黃建賓","陳昭姿"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1147601_00002"}}},{"id":"163683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a65060e496a993a7200a18dc12f595704a3d6b5df1ef73adb8c5ec6d484a9071cdc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:43:56 - 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犧牲了這麼多這個宮殿沒有辦法這麼快所以我覺得不是說你們回去研議你們就要爽爽快快的答應我們啊不然後面的事情又糟糕沒人要去扣了啦真的啦 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甚至颱風來幾乎等於是整個村子幾乎是沒辦法進出"},{"start":179.21,"end":204.844,"text":"因為安全性的考量不敢讓他進出啦那變成整個就會影響到他幾乎是被封在那個地方那唯一能夠改善的方法大概只有興建橋樑而已那我希望這一塊請部長跟主委啦因為主委負責總統籌的也請部長能夠加速來這個興建啦好不好讓他們這個新的橋能夠來來進速來興建完成要不然的話恐怕在未來的"},{"start":206.565,"end":229.438,"text":"只要遇到好大雨只要遇到颱風幾乎大概這個橋段都要封的啦那幾乎等於他們進出都受到很大影響所以這個很優先啦所以再拜託部長有納進來來拜託主委再大力的督促加快整個工程的進行這對納馬蝦原鄉會非常的重要啦那再來我是不是也問一下農業部好了不好農業部這邊也請教一下"},{"start":231.122,"end":259.156,"text":"這次我們在看到很多地方的它的一些災情的時候其實它是整個野溪包括周邊的一些整個坍塌下來所導致的狀況我在這個位置上面它其實本來是一條溪流啦那基本上是整個完全兩側的部分幾乎是整個坍塌掉了部長這未來用什麼方式比較好的一個處理我想我們在這次特別預算裡面針對農水路還有這些土石流造成的這些波地的一些我們都有便利預算去處理"},{"start":260.296,"end":275.692,"text":"那整個預算的編列如果是在土石流的部分大概是51億左右然後如果說包括如果說水利設施的話大概25億所以加起來大概有70多億來處理這個部分所以後續我們會根據地方政府報也好或是我們"},{"start":276.573,"end":303.229,"text":"不同的委員有建議的部分我們都會去限干然後公共公眾委員會之前也針對縣市政府的需求提出來了所以這個部分我們會盡快來處理因為像這個部分看到現在兩邊的連房子幾乎都淹沒了所以我覺得這一塊面對這種極端氣候的話這個未來要能夠再來優先來思考做一些處理因為這邊的里長跟我說每次只要好大雨大概幾乎都這樣"},{"start":304.39,"end":331.209,"text":"蘇郡挖完了再挖堆到旁邊去然後如果沒有清蘇下來的話那一樣在那個地點那一樣下次豪大雨來一樣就繼續沖刷掉所以整條野溪完全失去了功能好不好 這個我希望部長把這幾個地點這六龜的幾個地點把它能夠確切的在現場做一些處理我們希望能夠有效的去根治這些問題好 這個部分我想我們會盡快的來看怎麼樣現勘的部分以後再來因為極端氣候的因素現在幾次的颱風"},{"start":334.53,"end":353.114,"text":"不管是整個這一次颱風從台南嘉義上來造成重大的一些損害都很異常包括好大雨也造成很多的一些中南部的農損的一些狀況我也希望未來這一塊能夠依照當時賴總統所講的原則從寬從幽從速從簡的原則來處理這次有幾個我也拜託部長加速來處理"},{"start":358.515,"end":383.761,"text":"農民的感受就很深刻啦你遇到災難的時候像有一個是已經截止了要這個要登記截止了然後我們請部長就延後那包括有幾個是沒有納進來的我們請部長之後能夠加快地方政府的速度啦甚至由中央直接認定而做處理那個對於農民都很有感那現在極端氣候下我們也希望未來在這樣的施政上面能夠更加的有感好不好"},{"start":384.532,"end":402.019,"text":"我想跟委員報告這次從丹大寺颱風到楊柳颱風整個農業的災損如果是樹暴的部分已經將近43億那推估實際的損失大概是超過100多億所以我們是用同理心的角度去協助來農民能夠快我們就盡量來處理"},{"start":404.36,"end":432.759,"text":"謝謝那最後一個山區的部分原鄉的山區它的簡易自來水這次也受到很大的一些重創這經濟部這邊我也希望這一塊他們三個區都已經有報計畫上來的我也希望能夠加速來協助如果連基本的民生的自來水這個至少該給予他們協助的要盡快來完成好不好沒有水沒有自來水可用是很麻煩的一件事情好不好這我也希望計畫都報上來的請經濟部能夠大力來支持好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":434.462,"end":435.524,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員那下一位請賴慧媛委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1089,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（12時36分）謝謝召委，我先請一下包括經濟部、農業部跟公共工程委員會，好嗎？"],["主席：好，公共工程委員會還有經濟部次長及農業部部長。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委辛苦了，次長、部長辛苦了。這一次728的雨下得相當大，光在高雄，8天就累積了2,800毫米這樣的雨量，這樣的雨量其實比之八八風災也幾乎是毫不遜色，我認為在面對這種極端氣候下，恐怕未來政府在這塊要給予更多的支持，要有更新的思考，包括不管是人員的安全或者是道路、橋梁等等，在極端氣候下的思考，恐怕都必須要有更多的新思維。我們也看到了整個山區的雨量相當巨大，包括像昨天高雄臨時又下了一場很大的豪雨，在現在這種極端氣候下，我們面對的挑戰都越來越大，也更加考驗政府的應變能力，我知道最近幾位都很辛苦。","我先問一下主委好了，主委最近也負責很多山區的部分，交通部也可以一起上來，像很多山區的部分，這次遇到很多豪大雨，一些重要的道路跟橋梁，特別是那瑪夏的民生橋，主委應該也都了解問題，當時其實是有比較多的淤積，變成現在只要遇到豪大雨，幾乎等於是完全被封掉了，我問一下主委，包括交通部長，這個橋的部分會納入到這一次的整個預算裡面來給予新建的經費嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，這次交通部有一個道路與交通的部分，是不是請部長來跟你說明？"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，部長講一下好了，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分有放進來了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有放進來了，預定什麼時候可以來動工跟改建？"],["陳部長世凱：我們都已經進入設計階段了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：大概什麼時候可以開始來動工？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我會後再提供給委員，好嗎？"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個儘快加速，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為現在那瑪夏這邊很辛苦，這個橋面主委跟部長應該也都看過，橋面淤積得非常厲害，所以只要豪大雨，甚至颱風來，等於整個村子幾乎是沒辦法進出，因為安全性的考量，不敢讓他們進出，變成他們幾乎就是被封在那個地方，唯一能夠改善的方法大概只有新建橋樑而已，我希望這一塊請部長跟主委，因為主委負責統籌，也請部長能夠加速來新建，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：讓他們這個新的橋能夠儘速新建完成，要不然的話，恐怕未來只要遇到豪大雨、只要遇到颱風，這個橋大概都要封啦，等於他們進出都受到很大影響，所以這個很優先，再拜託，部長有納進來，也拜託主委再大力地督促，加快整個工程的進行。"],["陳部長世凱：會加速來進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這對那瑪夏原鄉非常重要。","再來我也問一下農業部，農業部這邊也請教一下，這次我們在看到很多地方的災情，其實是整個野溪包括周邊整個坍塌下來所導致的狀況，我站在這個位置上面，它其實本來是一條溪流，基本上兩側的部分幾乎是整個坍塌掉了，部長，這未來可以用什麼樣的方式來做比較好的處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們在這次的特別預算裡面，針對農水路還有這些土石流所造成坡地的……我們都有編列預算去處理，在整個預算的編列，土石流的部分大概是51億左右，水力設施大概是25億，所以加起來大概有七十多億來處理這個部分，後續我們會根據地方政府的提報或是不同委員有建議的部分，我們都會去現勘，然後公共工程委員會之前也針對縣市政府的需求提出來了，所以這個部分我們會儘快來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：像這個部分坍塌下來，兩邊連房子幾乎都淹沒了，我覺得面對這種極端氣候，未來要優先思考怎麼樣做一些處理。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為這邊的里長跟我說，每次只要豪大雨大概幾乎都這樣，疏浚挖完了再推到旁邊去，如果沒有清疏下來的話，在那個地點下次豪大雨來了一樣又繼續沖刷掉，所以整條野溪完全失去了功能。我希望部長能夠把六龜的這幾個地點確切地在現場做一些處理，我們希望能夠有效地去根治這些問題。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們會儘快地現勘以後看怎麼樣來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，因為極端氣候的因素，關於最近幾次的颱風，不管是這次颱風從臺南、嘉義上來造成一些重大的損害，這都很異常，包括豪大雨也造成很多中南部的農損狀況，我也希望未來這一塊能夠依照當時賴總統所講的原則，依從寬、從優、從速、從簡的原則來處理。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這次有幾個我也拜託部長加速來處理，農民的感受就很深刻，一遇到災難的時候，像有一個是已經要登記截止了，然後我們請部長延後，包括有幾個是沒有納進來的，我們請部長之後能夠加快地方政府的速度，甚至由中央直接認定來做處理，那個對於農民都很有感。現在在極端氣候下，我們也希望未來在這樣的施政上面能夠更加的有感，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，這次從丹娜絲颱風到楊柳颱風，整個農業災損在速報的部分已經將近43億，推估實際的損失大概超過一百多億，所以我們是用同理心的角度去協助農民，能夠快我們就儘量來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。","最後一個，原鄉山區的簡易自來水這次也受到很大的重創，關於經濟部這邊，這塊他們3個區都已經有報計畫上來了，我也希望能夠加速來協助，如果連基本的民生自來水……至少該給予他們協助的要儘快來完成，好不好？沒有自來水可用是很麻煩的一件事情，這部分計畫都報上來了，我也希望經濟部能夠大力來支持，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：OK，好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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